From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Nov 1 01:25:49 2020 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2020 01:25:49 -0500 Subject: ibm clone break out box Message-ID: so i got a test point box of some sort for the EVM M4030 system curious on what ibm documents i should be looking on how these things would of been used? since russian ones would be useles with out knowing how to read russian. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-city-police-stabbings-1.5785401 From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Nov 1 01:49:18 2020 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2020 01:49:18 -0500 Subject: removing melting rubber from metal? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > heat gun and some acitone? > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 1 01:19:58 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2020 00:19:58 -0700 Subject: removing melting rubber from metal? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50fd9d99-4894-391c-9fa1-9081d01a64b1@sydex.com> Dichloromethane (methylene dichloride) should take it right off. Personally, I'd just charge up a buffing wheel with some aluminum oxide and buff the stuff off and polish the metal. 0000 steel wool might accomplish the same thing. --Chuck From poc at pocnet.net Sun Nov 1 06:04:59 2020 From: poc at pocnet.net (Patrik Schindler) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2020 13:04:59 +0100 Subject: removing melting rubber from metal? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9A5A4FA3-70A0-41F5-88FA-8C8E1E165353@pocnet.net> Hello Adrian, Am 01.11.2020 um 07:49 schrieb Adrian Stoness via cctalk : > heat gun and some acitone? With that recipe, he?s likely to suffer from too much heat through actual flames. Acetone is very flammable, and now combine that with a heat gun. In addition, Acetone is very aggressive towards almost any kind of plastic. :wq! PoC From poc at pocnet.net Sun Nov 1 06:07:59 2020 From: poc at pocnet.net (Patrik Schindler) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2020 13:07:59 +0100 Subject: removing melting rubber from metal? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7C5F4CED-C1A8-49A8-8069-A6B33B294F37@pocnet.net> Hello Kelly, Am 27.10.2020 um 18:14 schrieb Kelly Fergason via cctalk : > The rubber feet melted. It was in my closet. I have no clue how it got that hot, or if they are just some composition for them to melt. Some kind of rubber loses elasticity over the years by having prolonged contact to chemicals in wood finish or in the air. To not do harm to other parts of the case, I always use denatured alcohol and a cloth for some good rubbing. :wq! PoC From guykd at optusnet.com.au Sun Nov 1 07:43:08 2020 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2020 00:43:08 +1100 Subject: removing melting rubber from metal? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20201102004308.01577460@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 12:14 PM 27/10/2020 -0500, you wrote: >Hi All, > >I have an EP-1 eprom programmer from BP Microsystems. > >The rubber feet melted. It was in my closet. I have no clue how it got >that hot, or if they >are just some composition for them to melt. > >My question is how do I clean this up? Acetone, paint thinner? I scraped >off the feet, so there is >just a few 'streams' of melted rubber down the sides, and a bit that >somehow got inside (also on the side, not on the electronics). > >Just looking for some ideas before I start applying chemicals... > >Thanks, >Kelly It's not heat. Just some rubber types degrade chemically over time. Cross links between the long chain hydrocarbons break, and the solid turns to a semi-liquid. Very sticky liquid. I presume the body of your eprom programmer is painted metal or plastic. So 'acetone and hot air' - NO! The gunky stuff is not terribly soluble. Mineral turps on a tissue pad, rubbing, kind of works. Mechanically scrape off what you can first. Use wooden or plastic spatula to avoid scratching paint. The rub with the pad. Solvents like turps, acetone, IPA etc - always try a little on your surface first to check the material isn't damaged by the solvent. Guy From rtomek at ceti.pl Sun Nov 1 10:38:02 2020 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2020 17:38:02 +0100 Subject: removing melting rubber from metal? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20201101163801.GA21095@tau1.ceti.pl> On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 12:14:41PM -0500, Kelly Fergason via cctalk wrote: > Hi All, > > I have an EP-1 eprom programmer from BP Microsystems. > > The rubber feet melted. It was in my closet. I have no clue how it got > that hot, or if they > are just some composition for them to melt. > > My question is how do I clean this up? [...] > Just looking for some ideas before I start applying chemicals... I will shoot in the dark, but... I wonder if wd40 could help? I remember an article where they listed a number of cases when this apparent elixir does a job. So, maybe this would be another such case? -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 1 10:39:33 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2020 08:39:33 -0800 Subject: removing melting rubber from metal? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20201102004308.01577460@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20201102004308.01577460@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <12deca73-1890-32b4-cbbe-e2612d0b8da4@sydex.com> On 11/1/20 5:43 AM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > At 12:14 PM 27/10/2020 -0500, you wrote: >> Hi All, >> >> I have an EP-1 eprom programmer from BP Microsystems. >> >> The rubber feet melted. It was in my closet. I have no clue how it got >> that hot, or if they >> are just some composition for them to melt. >> >> My question is how do I clean this up? Acetone, paint thinner? I scraped >> off the feet, so there is >> just a few 'streams' of melted rubber down the sides, and a bit that >> somehow got inside (also on the side, not on the electronics). >> >> Just looking for some ideas before I start applying chemicals... >> >> Thanks, >> Kelly > > > It's not heat. Just some rubber types degrade chemically over time. Cross links between the long > chain hydrocarbons break, and the solid turns to a semi-liquid. Very sticky liquid. > > I presume the body of your eprom programmer is painted metal or plastic. So 'acetone and hot air' - NO! > > The gunky stuff is not terribly soluble. Mineral turps on a tissue pad, rubbing, kind of works. > Mechanically scrape off what you can first. Use wooden or plastic spatula to avoid scratching paint. > The rub with the pad. Solvents like turps, acetone, IPA etc - always try a little on your surface first > to check the material isn't damaged by the solvent. > > Guy > -- --Chuck Sent from my digital computer From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 1 10:45:13 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2020 08:45:13 -0800 Subject: removing melting rubber from metal? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20201102004308.01577460@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20201102004308.01577460@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On 11/1/20 5:43 AM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > It's not heat. Just some rubber types degrade chemically over time. Cross links between the long > chain hydrocarbons break, and the solid turns to a semi-liquid. Very sticky liquid. > > I presume the body of your eprom programmer is painted metal or plastic. So 'acetone and hot air' - NO! > > The gunky stuff is not terribly soluble. Mineral turps on a tissue pad, rubbing, kind of works. > Mechanically scrape off what you can first. Use wooden or plastic spatula to avoid scratching paint. > The rub with the pad. Solvents like turps, acetone, IPA etc - always try a little on your surface first > to check the material isn't damaged by the solvent. Sorry for the earlier blank reply. You can simply mechanically scrape off as much of the old rubber as you can and re-apply new feet, ignoring any residue. That's probably the safest route and achieves the desired result. If you worked with QIC tape drives a lot, you'd recognize the degradation. It can be incredibly messy. Solvents are of marginal use, only really effective after you've mechanically removed all of the goop you can. I've found that MEK can help, but in the end, it's a messy job that just requires patience. In some cases, I've found that detergent and water can make cleanup easier by coating other surfaces that the goop can otherwise stick to. --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Nov 2 20:37:05 2020 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2020 21:37:05 -0500 Subject: FTGH: 3 VAX DATATRIEVE binders Message-ID: <7db7534c-d2e5-06c2-936f-9af5f31b221c@telegraphics.com.au> Hi, Offered these in a post last year. 1) VAX DATATRIEVE Reference manual AA-K079E-TE (this is online but version KE079G?) 2) VAX DATATRIEVE Handbook AA-W675B-TE (Does not seem to be online? Willing to scan) 3) VAX DATATRIEVE Guide to Writing Reports AA-P862C-TE For Datatrieve version 4.1 Versions online seem to be for version 3.0? Willing to scan Very clean condition: https://imgur.com/a/w9a3YEY Can post for shipping cost from Toronto ON, Canada. --Toby From jeffrey at vcfed.org Tue Nov 3 22:33:09 2020 From: jeffrey at vcfed.org (Jeffrey Brace) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 23:33:09 -0500 Subject: Vintage Computer Federation Swap Meet 11/7/2020 Message-ID: The Vintage Computer Federation is having its first Swap Meet event. This swap meet is for vintage computers, radios, TVs, ham radios and related items. FREE FOR BUYERS! VENDORS $20 FOR 1ST SPACE, $10 FOR EACH ADDITIONAL SPACE DATE: November 7, 2020 (RAIN DATE: November 8, 2020) TIME: 9AM to 6PM ADDRESS: Huge Parking lot on Monmouth Boulevard, Wall, NJ between Watson Road and Taft Street Across from InfoAge Museum and Brookdale College GPS location: 40.1848793,-74.0630848 Google Maps: https://www.google.com/maps/place/40%C2%B011'05.6%22N+74%C2%B003'47.1%22W/@40.1832946,-74.0661625,17z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d40.1848793!4d-74.0630848 Satellite Map: http://vcfed.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Swap_Meet_Map.png Flyer ? http://vcfed.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Swap_Meet_Flyer-1.png Flyer ? http://vcfed.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/VCF_Swap_Meet_2020_Flyer.pdf WEBSITE: http://vcfed.org/wp/vcf-swap-meet If you are interested in renting a space, please fill out this https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSftdpkFQo0CBCatGfqt1OICP-_g22n8nAjEdjiBl96u_6NQ7A/viewform -- ========================================= Jeff Brace Vice President & Board Member Vintage Computer Festival East Show-runner Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity http://www.vcfed.org/ jeffrey at vcfed.org cell: 732-759-1783 From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Nov 3 22:48:00 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 23:48:00 -0500 Subject: Vintage Computer Federation Swap Meet 11/7/2020 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Fun fact - we *did* have a swap meet when we were MARCH, in Wilmington, in the mid-late 2000's. We rented a hall and there was a pretty big crowd. I don't have any pictures but I remember selling an HP85 to Bill Sudbrink for $25. A good deal then. Bill On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 11:33 PM Jeffrey Brace via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > The Vintage Computer Federation is having its first Swap Meet event. This > swap meet is for vintage computers, radios, TVs, ham radios and related > items. > > FREE FOR BUYERS! > > VENDORS $20 FOR 1ST SPACE, $10 FOR EACH ADDITIONAL SPACE > > DATE: November 7, 2020 (RAIN DATE: November 8, 2020) > TIME: 9AM to 6PM > ADDRESS: > Huge Parking lot on Monmouth Boulevard, Wall, NJ between Watson Road and > Taft Street > Across from InfoAge Museum and Brookdale College > GPS location: 40.1848793,-74.0630848 > Google Maps: > > https://www.google.com/maps/place/40%C2%B011'05.6%22N+74%C2%B003'47.1%22W/@40.1832946,-74.0661625,17z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d40.1848793!4d-74.0630848 > Satellite Map: > http://vcfed.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Swap_Meet_Map.png > Flyer ? > http://vcfed.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Swap_Meet_Flyer-1.png > Flyer ? > http://vcfed.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/VCF_Swap_Meet_2020_Flyer.pdf > > WEBSITE: http://vcfed.org/wp/vcf-swap-meet > > If you are interested in renting a space, please fill out this > > https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSftdpkFQo0CBCatGfqt1OICP-_g22n8nAjEdjiBl96u_6NQ7A/viewform > > -- > ========================================= > Jeff Brace > Vice President & Board Member > Vintage Computer Festival East Show-runner > Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity > http://www.vcfed.org/ > jeffrey at vcfed.org > cell: 732-759-1783 > From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Nov 3 22:55:36 2020 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 23:55:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: Vintage Computer Federation Swap Meet 11/7/2020 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I remember that one. I traded you a sandwich for a TRS-80 Model II. :-) On Tue, 3 Nov 2020, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Fun fact - we *did* have a swap meet when we were MARCH, in Wilmington, in > the mid-late 2000's. We rented a hall and there was a pretty big crowd. I > don't have any pictures but I remember selling an HP85 to Bill Sudbrink for > $25. A good deal then. > Bill > > On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 11:33 PM Jeffrey Brace via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> The Vintage Computer Federation is having its first Swap Meet event. This >> swap meet is for vintage computers, radios, TVs, ham radios and related >> items. >> >> FREE FOR BUYERS! >> >> VENDORS $20 FOR 1ST SPACE, $10 FOR EACH ADDITIONAL SPACE >> >> DATE: November 7, 2020 (RAIN DATE: November 8, 2020) >> TIME: 9AM to 6PM >> ADDRESS: >> Huge Parking lot on Monmouth Boulevard, Wall, NJ between Watson Road and >> Taft Street >> Across from InfoAge Museum and Brookdale College >> GPS location: 40.1848793,-74.0630848 >> Google Maps: >> >> https://www.google.com/maps/place/40%C2%B011'05.6%22N+74%C2%B003'47.1%22W/@40.1832946,-74.0661625,17z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d40.1848793!4d-74.0630848 >> Satellite Map: >> http://vcfed.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Swap_Meet_Map.png >> Flyer ? >> http://vcfed.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Swap_Meet_Flyer-1.png >> Flyer ? >> http://vcfed.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/VCF_Swap_Meet_2020_Flyer.pdf >> >> WEBSITE: http://vcfed.org/wp/vcf-swap-meet >> >> If you are interested in renting a space, please fill out this >> >> https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSftdpkFQo0CBCatGfqt1OICP-_g22n8nAjEdjiBl96u_6NQ7A/viewform >> >> -- >> ========================================= >> Jeff Brace >> Vice President & Board Member >> Vintage Computer Festival East Show-runner >> Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity >> http://www.vcfed.org/ >> jeffrey at vcfed.org >> cell: 732-759-1783 >> > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 4 00:17:02 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 22:17:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage Computer Federation Swap Meet 11/7/2020 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As a pricing data point, . . . whay kind of sandwich? On Tue, 3 Nov 2020, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: > > I remember that one. I traded you a sandwich for a TRS-80 Model II. > :-) > > On Tue, 3 Nov 2020, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > >> Fun fact - we *did* have a swap meet when we were MARCH, in >> Wilmington, in >> the mid-late 2000's. We rented a hall and there was a pretty big >> crowd. I >> don't have any pictures but I remember selling an HP85 to Bill >> Sudbrink for >> $25. A good deal then. >> Bill >> >> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 11:33 PM Jeffrey Brace via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> The Vintage Computer Federation is having its first Swap Meet >>> event. This >>> swap meet is for vintage computers, radios, TVs, ham radios and >>> related >>> items. >>> >>> FREE FOR BUYERS! >>> >>> VENDORS $20 FOR 1ST SPACE, $10 FOR EACH ADDITIONAL SPACE >>> >>> DATE: November 7, 2020 (RAIN DATE: November 8, 2020) >>> TIME: 9AM to 6PM >>> ADDRESS: >>> Huge Parking lot on Monmouth Boulevard, Wall, NJ between Watson >>> Road and >>> Taft Street >>> Across from InfoAge Museum and Brookdale College >>> GPS location: 40.1848793,-74.0630848 >>> Google Maps: >>> >>> https://www.google.com/maps/place/40%C2%B011'05.6%22N+74%C2%B003'47.1%22W/@40.1832946,-74.0661625,17z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d40.1848793!4d-74.0630848 >>> Satellite Map: >>> http://vcfed.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Swap_Meet_Map.png >>> Flyer ? >>> http://vcfed.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Swap_Meet_Flyer-1.png >>> Flyer ? >>> http://vcfed.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/VCF_Swap_Meet_2020_Flyer.pdf >>> >>> WEBSITE: http://vcfed.org/wp/vcf-swap-meet >>> >>> If you are interested in renting a space, please fill out this >>> >>> https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSftdpkFQo0CBCatGfqt1OICP-_g22n8nAjEdjiBl96u_6NQ7A/viewform >>> >>> -- >>> ========================================= >>> Jeff Brace >>> Vice President & Board Member >>> Vintage Computer Festival East Show-runner >>> Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity >>> http://www.vcfed.org/ >>> jeffrey at vcfed.org >>> cell: 732-759-1783 >>> >> > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology > http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Nov 4 00:24:34 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 01:24:34 -0500 Subject: Vintage Computer Federation Swap Meet 11/7/2020 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It was a meatball sandwitch On Wed, Nov 4, 2020, 1:17 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > As a pricing data point, . . . > whay kind of sandwich? > > > On Tue, 3 Nov 2020, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: > > > > > I remember that one. I traded you a sandwich for a TRS-80 Model II. > > :-) > > > > On Tue, 3 Nov 2020, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > > >> Fun fact - we *did* have a swap meet when we were MARCH, in > >> Wilmington, in > >> the mid-late 2000's. We rented a hall and there was a pretty big > >> crowd. I > >> don't have any pictures but I remember selling an HP85 to Bill > >> Sudbrink for > >> $25. A good deal then. > >> Bill > >> > >> On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 11:33 PM Jeffrey Brace via cctalk < > >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >>> The Vintage Computer Federation is having its first Swap Meet > >>> event. This > >>> swap meet is for vintage computers, radios, TVs, ham radios and > >>> related > >>> items. > >>> > >>> FREE FOR BUYERS! > >>> > >>> VENDORS $20 FOR 1ST SPACE, $10 FOR EACH ADDITIONAL SPACE > >>> > >>> DATE: November 7, 2020 (RAIN DATE: November 8, 2020) > >>> TIME: 9AM to 6PM > >>> ADDRESS: > >>> Huge Parking lot on Monmouth Boulevard, Wall, NJ between Watson > >>> Road and > >>> Taft Street > >>> Across from InfoAge Museum and Brookdale College > >>> GPS location: 40.1848793,-74.0630848 > >>> Google Maps: > >>> > >>> > https://www.google.com/maps/place/40%C2%B011'05.6%22N+74%C2%B003'47.1%22W/@40.1832946,-74.0661625,17z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d40.1848793!4d-74.0630848 > >>> Satellite Map: > >>> http://vcfed.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Swap_Meet_Map.png > >>> Flyer ? > >>> http://vcfed.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Swap_Meet_Flyer-1.png > >>> Flyer ? > >>> > http://vcfed.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/VCF_Swap_Meet_2020_Flyer.pdf > >>> > >>> WEBSITE: http://vcfed.org/wp/vcf-swap-meet > >>> > >>> If you are interested in renting a space, please fill out this > >>> > >>> > https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSftdpkFQo0CBCatGfqt1OICP-_g22n8nAjEdjiBl96u_6NQ7A/viewform > >>> > >>> -- > >>> ========================================= > >>> Jeff Brace > >>> Vice President & Board Member > >>> Vintage Computer Festival East Show-runner > >>> Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity > >>> http://www.vcfed.org/ > >>> jeffrey at vcfed.org > >>> cell: 732-759-1783 > >>> > >> > > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > > Old Technology > > http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ > From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Nov 4 02:39:58 2020 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 03:39:58 -0500 Subject: Vintage Computer Federation Swap Meet 11/7/2020 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020-11-04 01:24, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > It was a meatball sandwitch Halloween? From jeffrey at vcfed.org Wed Nov 4 08:51:03 2020 From: jeffrey at vcfed.org (Jeffrey Brace) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 09:51:03 -0500 Subject: Vintage Computer Federation Swap Meet 11/7/2020 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 11:48 PM Bill Degnan wrote: > Fun fact - we *did* have a swap meet when we were MARCH, in Wilmington, > in the mid-late 2000's. We rented a hall and there was a pretty big > crowd. I don't have any pictures but I remember selling an HP85 to Bill > Sudbrink for $25. A good deal then. > I had no eyed deer! We will designate that swap meet zero, the beta version. > Bill > > On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 11:33 PM Jeffrey Brace via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> The Vintage Computer Federation is having its first Swap Meet event. This >> swap meet is for vintage computers, radios, TVs, ham radios and related >> items. >> >> FREE FOR BUYERS! >> >> VENDORS $20 FOR 1ST SPACE, $10 FOR EACH ADDITIONAL SPACE >> >> DATE: November 7, 2020 (RAIN DATE: November 8, 2020) >> TIME: 9AM to 6PM >> ADDRESS: >> Huge Parking lot on Monmouth Boulevard, Wall, NJ between Watson Road and >> Taft Street >> Across from InfoAge Museum and Brookdale College >> GPS location: 40.1848793,-74.0630848 >> Google Maps: >> >> https://www.google.com/maps/place/40%C2%B011'05.6%22N+74%C2%B003'47.1%22W/@40.1832946,-74.0661625,17z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d40.1848793!4d-74.0630848 >> Satellite Map: >> http://vcfed.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Swap_Meet_Map.png >> Flyer ? >> http://vcfed.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Swap_Meet_Flyer-1.png >> Flyer ? >> >> http://vcfed.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/VCF_Swap_Meet_2020_Flyer.pdf >> >> WEBSITE: http://vcfed.org/wp/vcf-swap-meet >> >> If you are interested in renting a space, please fill out this >> >> https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSftdpkFQo0CBCatGfqt1OICP-_g22n8nAjEdjiBl96u_6NQ7A/viewform >> >> -- >> ========================================= >> Jeff Brace >> Vice President & Board Member >> Vintage Computer Festival East Show-runner >> Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity >> http://www.vcfed.org/ >> jeffrey at vcfed.org >> cell: 732-759-1783 >> > -- ========================================= Jeff Brace Vice President & Board Member Vintage Computer Festival East Show-runner Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity http://www.vcfed.org/ jeffrey at vcfed.org cell: 732-759-1783 From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Nov 4 09:45:25 2020 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 10:45:25 -0500 Subject: Vintage Computer Federation Swap Meet 11/7/2020 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <023701d6b2c1$8537fec0$8fa7fc40$@verizon.net> Yup, I still have it. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bill Degnan via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2020 11:48 PM To: Jeffrey Brace; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Vintage Computer Federation Swap Meet 11/7/2020 Fun fact - we *did* have a swap meet when we were MARCH, in Wilmington, in the mid-late 2000's. We rented a hall and there was a pretty big crowd. I don't have any pictures but I remember selling an HP85 to Bill Sudbrink for $25. A good deal then. Bill On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 11:33 PM Jeffrey Brace via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > The Vintage Computer Federation is having its first Swap Meet event. This > swap meet is for vintage computers, radios, TVs, ham radios and related > items. > > FREE FOR BUYERS! > > VENDORS $20 FOR 1ST SPACE, $10 FOR EACH ADDITIONAL SPACE > > DATE: November 7, 2020 (RAIN DATE: November 8, 2020) > TIME: 9AM to 6PM > ADDRESS: > Huge Parking lot on Monmouth Boulevard, Wall, NJ between Watson Road and > Taft Street > Across from InfoAge Museum and Brookdale College > GPS location: 40.1848793,-74.0630848 > Google Maps: > > https://www.google.com/maps/place/40%C2%B011'05.6%22N+74%C2%B003'47.1%22W/@40.1832946,-74.0661625,17z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d40.1848793!4d-74.0630848 > Satellite Map: > http://vcfed.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Swap_Meet_Map.png > Flyer ? > http://vcfed.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Swap_Meet_Flyer-1.png > Flyer ? > http://vcfed.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/VCF_Swap_Meet_2020_Flyer.pdf > > WEBSITE: http://vcfed.org/wp/vcf-swap-meet > > If you are interested in renting a space, please fill out this > > https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSftdpkFQo0CBCatGfqt1OICP-_g22n8nAjEdjiBl96u_6NQ7A/viewform > > -- > ========================================= > Jeff Brace > Vice President & Board Member > Vintage Computer Festival East Show-runner > Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity > http://www.vcfed.org/ > jeffrey at vcfed.org > cell: 732-759-1783 > -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 4 10:46:28 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 08:46:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage Computer Federation Swap Meet 11/7/2020 In-Reply-To: <023701d6b2c1$8537fec0$8fa7fc40$@verizon.net> References: <023701d6b2c1$8537fec0$8fa7fc40$@verizon.net> Message-ID: Is the meatball sandwich still vacuum packed and frozen? On Wed, 4 Nov 2020, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: > Yup, I still have it. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bill Degnan via cctalk > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2020 11:48 PM > To: Jeffrey Brace; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Vintage Computer Federation Swap Meet 11/7/2020 > > Fun fact - we *did* have a swap meet when we were MARCH, in Wilmington, in > the mid-late 2000's. We rented a hall and there was a pretty big crowd. I > don't have any pictures but I remember selling an HP85 to Bill Sudbrink for > $25. A good deal then. > Bill > > On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 11:33 PM Jeffrey Brace via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> The Vintage Computer Federation is having its first Swap Meet event. This >> swap meet is for vintage computers, radios, TVs, ham radios and related >> items. >> >> FREE FOR BUYERS! >> >> VENDORS $20 FOR 1ST SPACE, $10 FOR EACH ADDITIONAL SPACE >> >> DATE: November 7, 2020 (RAIN DATE: November 8, 2020) >> TIME: 9AM to 6PM >> ADDRESS: >> Huge Parking lot on Monmouth Boulevard, Wall, NJ between Watson Road and >> Taft Street >> Across from InfoAge Museum and Brookdale College >> GPS location: 40.1848793,-74.0630848 >> Google Maps: >> >> https://www.google.com/maps/place/40%C2%B011'05.6%22N+74%C2%B003'47.1%22W/@40.1832946,-74.0661625,17z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d40.1848793!4d-74.0630848 >> Satellite Map: >> http://vcfed.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Swap_Meet_Map.png >> Flyer ? >> http://vcfed.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Swap_Meet_Flyer-1.png >> Flyer ? >> http://vcfed.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/VCF_Swap_Meet_2020_Flyer.pdf >> >> WEBSITE: http://vcfed.org/wp/vcf-swap-meet >> >> If you are interested in renting a space, please fill out this >> >> https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSftdpkFQo0CBCatGfqt1OICP-_g22n8nAjEdjiBl96u_6NQ7A/viewform >> >> -- >> ========================================= >> Jeff Brace >> Vice President & Board Member >> Vintage Computer Festival East Show-runner >> Vintage Computer Federation is a 501c3 charity >> http://www.vcfed.org/ >> jeffrey at vcfed.org >> cell: 732-759-1783 >> > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus From sieler at allegro.com Thu Nov 5 01:25:42 2020 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 23:25:42 -0800 Subject: Vintage Computer Federation Swap Meet 11/7/2020 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, Please remember ... TRIM YOUR DARN POSTS! No one needs to see a hundred+ lines of quoted post just to see a one line reply, no matter what kind of sandwich it was! (And, the guy getting the sandwich had the better deal, IMHO :) thanks, Stan (the other grumpy guy?) Sieler From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Nov 5 06:39:10 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2020 07:39:10 -0500 Subject: Vintage Computer Federation Swap Meet 11/7/2020 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > (And, the guy getting the sandwich had the better deal, IMHO > It's hard with mobile gmail to trim, but regardless I agree! Bill "meatball sandwitch" Degnan P.S. As a funny I asked for a meatball sandwitch in exchange for essentially giving away a vintage computer. It became a kind of an inside joke in the early MARCH club days. A form of currency. > From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Thu Nov 5 10:28:36 2020 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2020 11:28:36 -0500 Subject: Dec ultrix 32 reference books for sale Message-ID: I have a bankers box worth of dec ultrix 32 reference manuals in grey dec binders. Im looking to sell the box of books for a few $ plus the cost of shipping. Hoping to find these books a good home. --Devin D. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Nov 5 11:01:01 2020 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2020 12:01:01 -0500 Subject: Dec ultrix 32 reference books for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020-11-05 11:28 a.m., devin davison via cctalk wrote: > I have a bankers box worth of dec ultrix 32 reference manuals in grey dec > binders. Im looking to sell the box of books for a few $ plus the cost of > shipping. > > Hoping to find these books a good home. > > --Devin D. Please indicate location. --Toby From enrico.lazzerini at email.it Thu Nov 5 13:04:10 2020 From: enrico.lazzerini at email.it (Enrico email.it) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2020 20:04:10 +0100 Subject: Floppy disk: one drive per face In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <72F899CE1CCB42E48C3CB8EDDD46ED4E@EnricoPC> We are trying to read some floppy disk used on a 1981 Italian Z80 machine with CP / M. The problem is that the firmware selects face A of the floppy as DRIVE A and face B of the same floppy as Drive B. We saved an image with IMD and we know that the geometry of face A is IBM 3740 26x128x77 tracks. By inserting this data into the 22DISK definition file we can successfully extract the CP / M files from A side. How should we configure 22disk to be able to do the same thing on the B side of the same floppy disk? Inserting Side 2 in the definition table is not enough .... Thanks Enrico - Pisa- Italy From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Nov 5 13:31:07 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2020 12:31:07 -0700 Subject: Floppy disk: one drive per face In-Reply-To: <72F899CE1CCB42E48C3CB8EDDD46ED4E@EnricoPC> References: <72F899CE1CCB42E48C3CB8EDDD46ED4E@EnricoPC> Message-ID: <50167a37-56a1-bbda-3bdf-0380fd091c71@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/5/2020 12:04 PM, Enrico email.it via cctalk wrote: > > We are trying to read some floppy disk used on a 1981 Italian Z80 machine > with CP / M. > > The problem is that the firmware selects face A of the floppy as DRIVE A and > face B of the same floppy as Drive B. > > We saved an image with IMD and we know that the geometry of face A is IBM > 3740 26x128x77 tracks. > > By inserting this data into the 22DISK definition file we can successfully > extract the CP / M files from A side. > > How should we configure 22disk to be able to do the same thing on the B side > of the same floppy disk? > > Inserting Side 2 in the definition table is not enough .... > > Thanks Enrico - Pisa- Italy This local guy might know. http://www.ummr.altervista.org/ A good view of computer history, from the land of pasta. Ben. From mooreericnyc at gmail.com Thu Nov 5 13:34:52 2020 From: mooreericnyc at gmail.com (Eric Moore) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2020 13:34:52 -0600 Subject: Systems Engineering Laboratories - SEL History Message-ID: Hello, I have pulled together a website with links to resources and information on SEL, or Systems Engineering Laboratories. http://mnembler.com SEL was a computer manufacturer in the 60s and 70s which later was acquired by Gould and then Encore. They made many major innovations and were instrumental in the success of the Apollo program. The website is still a work in progress, but I did want to share it with yall. -Eric From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 5 14:10:15 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2020 12:10:15 -0800 Subject: Floppy disk: one drive per face In-Reply-To: <50167a37-56a1-bbda-3bdf-0380fd091c71@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <72F899CE1CCB42E48C3CB8EDDD46ED4E@EnricoPC> <50167a37-56a1-bbda-3bdf-0380fd091c71@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <605bca39-20dd-1b8b-1b64-37a7ac36662b@sydex.com> On 11/5/20 11:31 AM, ben via cctalk wrote: >> Inserting Side 2 in the definition table is not enough .... >> >> Thanks Enrico - Pisa- Italy > > This local guy might know. > http://www.ummr.altervista.org/ > A good view of computer history, from the land of pasta. > Ben. Don't know who that guy is, but I'm very well acquainted with the bozo who wrote 22Disk. On first blush, I'd declare the organization as ORDER EAGLE and use an offset of 40 tracks+whatever is reserved on the other side. See the SCH2 definition for example. But that's just the shot-in-the dark opinion of this bozo. --Chuck From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Nov 5 14:54:01 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2020 15:54:01 -0500 Subject: Floppy disk: one drive per face In-Reply-To: <50167a37-56a1-bbda-3bdf-0380fd091c71@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <72F899CE1CCB42E48C3CB8EDDD46ED4E@EnricoPC> <50167a37-56a1-bbda-3bdf-0380fd091c71@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 11/5/20 2:31 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 11/5/2020 12:04 PM, Enrico email.it via cctalk wrote: >> >> We are trying to read some floppy disk used on a 1981 Italian Z80 machine >> with CP / M. >> >> The problem is that the firmware selects face A of the floppy as DRIVE >> A and >> face B of the same floppy as Drive B. >> >> We saved an image with IMD and we know that the geometry of face A is IBM >> 3740 26x128x77 tracks. >> >> By inserting this data into the 22DISK definition file we can >> successfully >> extract the CP / M files from A side. >> >> How should we configure 22disk to be able to do the same thing on the >> B side >> of the same floppy disk? >> >> Inserting Side 2 in the definition table is not enough .... >> >> Thanks Enrico - Pisa- Italy > > This local guy might know. > http://www.ummr.altervista.org/ > A good view of computer history, from the land of pasta. > Ben. > I am not familiar with 22Disk. Can you image each side as a separate image? That should make it possible to read both of them. bill From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 5 15:50:14 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2020 13:50:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Floppy disk: one drive per face In-Reply-To: <72F899CE1CCB42E48C3CB8EDDD46ED4E@EnricoPC> References: <72F899CE1CCB42E48C3CB8EDDD46ED4E@EnricoPC> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Nov 2020, Enrico email.it via cctalk wrote: > We are trying to read some floppy disk used on a 1981 Italian Z80 machine > with CP / M. > The problem is that the firmware selects face A of the floppy as DRIVE A and > face B of the same floppy as Drive B. > We saved an image with IMD and we know that the geometry of face A is IBM > 3740 26x128x77 tracks. > By inserting this data into the 22DISK definition file we can successfully > extract the CP / M files from A side. > How should we configure 22disk to be able to do the same thing on the B side > of the same floppy disk? > Inserting Side 2 in the definition table is not enough .... An irrelevant data point, . . . when double sided floppy drives came out for the PC/5150, there were some patches informally distributed (ISTR mimeograpahed), for doing that with PC-DOS 1.00! But, very soon thereafter, PC-DOS 1.10/MS-DOS 1.25 came out that supported a full double sided format. Is this an 8" disk? SSSD? (128 x 26 x 77) (As you are presumably already aware, many PC FDCs have problems with FM and/or 128 bytes per sector) A really stupid HARDWARE way to do it would be to swap the wires for the heads on the drive! Many drives have convenient plugs that would make that easy. Another stupid hardware way to do it would be to jumper side select, to falsely select second side. Chuck has provided a straight-forward solution. There were several different ways that disk formats were expanded to double sided. Some went up side A, and then DOWN side B Some made use of the faster head switching than track stepping, and did a track on one side, then a track on the other side. (which is the "modern" standard, for MS-DOS, etc.) SOME went up side A, and then went back to track 0 and then up side B. With one of those formats, you could simply tell it that the "reserved tracks" occupied the entire first side. (77 reserved tracks from your description) XenoCopy does not have such a format supported. I am not going to be adding it at this time. Uniform does not support it. 22Disk apparently has easily modified parameter tables, so should work just fine. Thank Chuck! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com From enrico.lazzerini at email.it Thu Nov 5 16:42:03 2020 From: enrico.lazzerini at email.it (Enrico email.it) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2020 23:42:03 +0100 Subject: R: Floppy disk: one drive per face In-Reply-To: References: <72F899CE1CCB42E48C3CB8EDDD46ED4E@EnricoPC> Message-ID: <02615C1BB0F0496E959278B4C3C06C8A@EnricoPC> About 5,25" diskettes it seems that its geometry could be based on 128byte for sector so using FM recording way and 40 tracks for side it could have 18 sectors for track. If I try to format in this way a disk with 22disk program I instead get 16 sectors for track. Having doubt on this we gone back to look better on 8" diskettes to look deep about the way on which the b side could be read. We can image that on 1980 they written before a way to record just on one side of the diskettes and then they added double face diskettes handling them as two separate drives (leaving the same sel 0 pin but changing the side select pin to 1), so: why would have they rewrite all instead of to replicate the same what already way made well on the first side diskettes? Enrico -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Fred Cisin via cctalk Inviato: gioved? 5 novembre 2020 22:50 A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Oggetto: Re: Floppy disk: one drive per face On Thu, 5 Nov 2020, Enrico email.it via cctalk wrote: > We are trying to read some floppy disk used on a 1981 Italian Z80 machine > with CP / M. > The problem is that the firmware selects face A of the floppy as DRIVE A and > face B of the same floppy as Drive B. > We saved an image with IMD and we know that the geometry of face A is IBM > 3740 26x128x77 tracks. > By inserting this data into the 22DISK definition file we can successfully > extract the CP / M files from A side. > How should we configure 22disk to be able to do the same thing on the B side > of the same floppy disk? > Inserting Side 2 in the definition table is not enough .... An irrelevant data point, . . . when double sided floppy drives came out for the PC/5150, there were some patches informally distributed (ISTR mimeograpahed), for doing that with PC-DOS 1.00! But, very soon thereafter, PC-DOS 1.10/MS-DOS 1.25 came out that supported a full double sided format. Is this an 8" disk? SSSD? (128 x 26 x 77) (As you are presumably already aware, many PC FDCs have problems with FM and/or 128 bytes per sector) A really stupid HARDWARE way to do it would be to swap the wires for the heads on the drive! Many drives have convenient plugs that would make that easy. Another stupid hardware way to do it would be to jumper side select, to falsely select second side. Chuck has provided a straight-forward solution. There were several different ways that disk formats were expanded to double sided. Some went up side A, and then DOWN side B Some made use of the faster head switching than track stepping, and did a track on one side, then a track on the other side. (which is the "modern" standard, for MS-DOS, etc.) SOME went up side A, and then went back to track 0 and then up side B. With one of those formats, you could simply tell it that the "reserved tracks" occupied the entire first side. (77 reserved tracks from your description) XenoCopy does not have such a format supported. I am not going to be adding it at this time. Uniform does not support it. 22Disk apparently has easily modified parameter tables, so should work just fine. Thank Chuck! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com From sieler at allegro.com Fri Nov 6 01:13:28 2020 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2020 23:13:28 -0800 Subject: Vintage Computer Federation Swap Meet 11/7/2020 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I like it! thanks! On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 4:39 AM Bill Degnan wrote: > > (And, the guy getting the sandwich had the better deal, IMHO >> > > It's hard with mobile gmail to trim, but regardless I agree! > > Bill "meatball sandwitch" Degnan > > P.S. As a funny I asked for a meatball sandwitch in exchange for > essentially giving away a vintage computer. It became a kind of an inside > joke in the early MARCH club days. A form of currency. > >> From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 6 02:13:35 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 00:13:35 -0800 Subject: R: Floppy disk: one drive per face In-Reply-To: <02615C1BB0F0496E959278B4C3C06C8A@EnricoPC> References: <72F899CE1CCB42E48C3CB8EDDD46ED4E@EnricoPC> <02615C1BB0F0496E959278B4C3C06C8A@EnricoPC> Message-ID: <8726084d-3079-73bc-664f-cb22af23b084@sydex.com> To elaborate on what I said earlier, consider the following set of definitions for the CPC-6128 as marketed by Schneider: BEGIN SCH1 Schneider CPC 6128 Side 1 - DSDD 5.25" DENSITY MFM, LOW CYLINDERS 40 SIDES 1 SECTORS 9,512 SIDE1 0 193,194,195,196,197,198,199,200,201 BSH 3 BLM 7 EXM 0 DSM 180 DRM 63 AL0 0C0H AL1 0 OFS 0 END BEGIN SCH2 Schneider CPC 6128 Side 2 - DSDD 5.25" DENSITY MFM, LOW CYLINDERS 40 SIDES 2 SECTORS 9,512 SIDE1 0 193,194,195,196,197,198,199,200,201 SIDE2 0 193,194,195,196,197,198,199,200,201 BSH 3 BLM 7 EXM 0 DSM 180 DRM 63 AL0 0C0H AL1 0 OFS 40 ORDER EAGLE SKIP END Why the "SKIP" in the second definition? Well, if you wanted to format the second side, you don't want CFMT to write all over the first side. "SKIP" avoids this. Strictly speaking, SIDE1 in definition has no significance, but 22Disk syntax requires it. You need the eggs with your ham and eggs, even if you don't like them. You have to figure that in a product that dates from 1987 that we've pretty much seen it all. --Chuck From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Nov 6 02:19:31 2020 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 09:19:31 +0100 (CET) Subject: Floppy disk: one drive per face In-Reply-To: <72F899CE1CCB42E48C3CB8EDDD46ED4E@EnricoPC> References: <72F899CE1CCB42E48C3CB8EDDD46ED4E@EnricoPC> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Nov 2020, "Enrico email.it" wrote: > How should we configure 22disk to be able to do the same thing on the B side > of the same floppy disk? > > Inserting Side 2 in the definition table is not enough .... Actually, it is almost that ;-) I have a similar system, the fl100 floppy drive system, part of the Grundig ptc100 (i.e. Mupid 2) A: is side 0, and B: is side 1. Here's my 22disk definition for this. Please note, the trick is to define a two-sided format for the second side and first describe side 2 ! The definition of side 1 will be ignored because the CP/M directory won't specify any block beyond the first side. And of course, the track order is by cylinder, not by side. BEGIN MUP1 Mupid Seite 1 - SSSD 96 tpi 5.25" DENSITY FM ,LOW CYLINDERS 80 SIDES 1 SECTORS 10,256 SIDE1 0 0,2,4,6,8,1,3,5,7,9 BSH 4 BLM 15 EXM 1 DSM 96 DRM 127 AL0 0C0H AL1 0 OFS 3 END BEGIN MUP2 Mupid Seite 2 - SSSD 96 tpi 5.25" DENSITY FM ,LOW CYLINDERS 80 SIDES 2 SECTORS 10,256 SIDE2 0 0,2,4,6,8,1,3,5,7,9 SIDE1 0 0,2,4,6,8,1,3,5,7,9 ORDER CYLINDERS BSH 4 BLM 15 EXM 1 DSM 96 DRM 127 AL0 0C0H AL1 0 OFS 3 END Christian From enrico.lazzerini at email.it Fri Nov 6 10:35:58 2020 From: enrico.lazzerini at email.it (Enrico email.it) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 17:35:58 +0100 Subject: R: Floppy disk: one drive per face In-Reply-To: References: <72F899CE1CCB42E48C3CB8EDDD46ED4E@EnricoPC> Message-ID: So this for to read 1st face A: BEGIN MUP1 Mupid Seite 1 - SSSD 96 tpi 5.25" DENSITY FM ,LOW CYLINDERS 80 SIDES 1 SECTORS 10,256 SIDE1 0 0,2,4,6,8,1,3,5,7,9 BSH 4 BLM 15 EXM 1 DSM 96 DRM 127 AL0 0C0H AL1 0 OFS 3 END And this for to read the other side B: BEGIN MUP2 Mupid Seite 2 - SSSD 96 tpi 5.25" DENSITY FM ,LOW CYLINDERS 80 SIDES 2 SECTORS 10,256 SIDE2 0 0,2,4,6,8,1,3,5,7,9 SIDE1 0 0,2,4,6,8,1,3,5,7,9 ORDER CYLINDERS BSH 4 BLM 15 EXM 1 DSM 96 DRM 127 AL0 0C0H AL1 0 OFS 3 END Right? Enrico -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Christian Corti via cctalk Inviato: venerd? 6 novembre 2020 09:20 A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Oggetto: Re: Floppy disk: one drive per face On Thu, 5 Nov 2020, "Enrico email.it" wrote: > How should we configure 22disk to be able to do the same thing on the B side > of the same floppy disk? > > Inserting Side 2 in the definition table is not enough .... Actually, it is almost that ;-) I have a similar system, the fl100 floppy drive system, part of the Grundig ptc100 (i.e. Mupid 2) A: is side 0, and B: is side 1. Here's my 22disk definition for this. Please note, the trick is to define a two-sided format for the second side and first describe side 2 ! The definition of side 1 will be ignored because the CP/M directory won't specify any block beyond the first side. And of course, the track order is by cylinder, not by side. BEGIN MUP1 Mupid Seite 1 - SSSD 96 tpi 5.25" DENSITY FM ,LOW CYLINDERS 80 SIDES 1 SECTORS 10,256 SIDE1 0 0,2,4,6,8,1,3,5,7,9 BSH 4 BLM 15 EXM 1 DSM 96 DRM 127 AL0 0C0H AL1 0 OFS 3 END BEGIN MUP2 Mupid Seite 2 - SSSD 96 tpi 5.25" DENSITY FM ,LOW CYLINDERS 80 SIDES 2 SECTORS 10,256 SIDE2 0 0,2,4,6,8,1,3,5,7,9 SIDE1 0 0,2,4,6,8,1,3,5,7,9 ORDER CYLINDERS BSH 4 BLM 15 EXM 1 DSM 96 DRM 127 AL0 0C0H AL1 0 OFS 3 END Christian From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 6 11:07:30 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 09:07:30 -0800 Subject: Floppy disk: one drive per face In-Reply-To: References: <72F899CE1CCB42E48C3CB8EDDD46ED4E@EnricoPC> Message-ID: <1e0c28a5-3a32-499a-b0a5-ffd9c7ad8499@sydex.com> On 11/6/20 12:19 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > > BEGIN MUP1? Mupid Seite 1 - SSSD 96 tpi 5.25" > DENSITY FM ,LOW > CYLINDERS 80 > SIDES 1 > SECTORS 10,256 > SIDE1 0 0,2,4,6,8,1,3,5,7,9 > BSH 4 BLM 15 EXM 1 DSM 96 DRM 127 AL0 0C0H AL1 0 OFS 3 > END > > BEGIN MUP2? Mupid Seite 2 - SSSD 96 tpi 5.25" > DENSITY FM ,LOW > CYLINDERS 80 > SIDES 2 > SECTORS 10,256 > SIDE2 0 0,2,4,6,8,1,3,5,7,9 > SIDE1 0 0,2,4,6,8,1,3,5,7,9 > ORDER CYLINDERS > BSH 4 BLM 15 EXM 1 DSM 96 DRM 127 AL0 0C0H AL1 0 OFS 3 > END I prefer my solution. If you opt to format the second side, you'll end up clobbering the first side in the process. But then, what does this bozo know? --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Nov 6 11:21:52 2020 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 09:21:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Floppy disk: one drive per face In-Reply-To: <1e0c28a5-3a32-499a-b0a5-ffd9c7ad8499@sydex.com> References: <72F899CE1CCB42E48C3CB8EDDD46ED4E@EnricoPC> <1e0c28a5-3a32-499a-b0a5-ffd9c7ad8499@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Nov 2020, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 11/6/20 12:19 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: >> >> BEGIN MUP1? Mupid Seite 1 - SSSD 96 tpi 5.25" >> DENSITY FM ,LOW >> CYLINDERS 80 >> SIDES 1 >> SECTORS 10,256 >> SIDE1 0 0,2,4,6,8,1,3,5,7,9 >> BSH 4 BLM 15 EXM 1 DSM 96 DRM 127 AL0 0C0H AL1 0 OFS 3 >> END >> >> BEGIN MUP2? Mupid Seite 2 - SSSD 96 tpi 5.25" >> DENSITY FM ,LOW >> CYLINDERS 80 >> SIDES 2 >> SECTORS 10,256 >> SIDE2 0 0,2,4,6,8,1,3,5,7,9 >> SIDE1 0 0,2,4,6,8,1,3,5,7,9 >> ORDER CYLINDERS >> BSH 4 BLM 15 EXM 1 DSM 96 DRM 127 AL0 0C0H AL1 0 OFS 3 >> END > > I prefer my solution. If you opt to format the second side, you'll end > up clobbering the first side in the process. But then, what does this > bozo know? > FYI Christian, in case you weren't aware the "bozo" above /wrote/ 22disk. :D This is the greatest "don't try to teach your grandmother how to steal sheep" moment I've seen all year. \o/ g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Nov 6 11:37:12 2020 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 11:37:12 -0600 Subject: Vintage Computer Federation Swap Meet 11/7/2020 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 5, 2020, 06:39 Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > (And, the guy getting the sandwich had the better deal, IMHO > > > > It's hard with mobile gmail to trim, but regardless I agree! > > Bill "meatball sandwitch" Degnan > > P.S. As a funny I asked for a meatball sandwitch in exchange for > essentially giving away a vintage computer. It became a kind of an inside > joke in the early MARCH club days. A form of currency. > When I used to give away spare ccmp on Craigslist, I'd say "bring me a burrito and it's yours". In one case, it worked! From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Fri Nov 6 13:37:19 2020 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 14:37:19 -0500 Subject: Systems Engineering Laboratories - SEL History In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My memories of SEL beginnings are dusty. and rusty. I recall a bunch of their systems being used in science related efforts, beecause of the high IO capability. At the time, for NASA and others, it was the ideal platform for data collection. Not a bad compute capability - many other systems in that space could do compute efforts more quickly, but the none could match data IO for years. iirc, this was in both the 16 and 32 bit lines. I alwo recall when some folks from DEC VAX et al efforts left and joined SEL - yep there is some back story there. bob On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 2:35 PM Eric Moore via cctalk wrote: > > Hello, I have pulled together a website with links to resources and > information on SEL, or Systems Engineering Laboratories. > > http://mnembler.com > > SEL was a computer manufacturer in the 60s and 70s which later was acquired > by Gould and then Encore. They made many major innovations and were > instrumental in the success of the Apollo program. > > The website is still a work in progress, but I did want to share it with > yall. > > -Eric From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 6 13:41:09 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 11:41:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: R: Floppy disk: one drive per face In-Reply-To: References: <72F899CE1CCB42E48C3CB8EDDD46ED4E@EnricoPC> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Nov 2020, Enrico email.it via cctalk wrote: > We are trying to read some floppy disk used on a 1981 Italian Z80 > machine with CP / M. > We saved an image with IMD and we know that the geometry of face A is > IBM 3740 26x128x77 tracks. > By inserting this data into the 22DISK definition file we can > successfully extract the CP / M files from A side. > So this for to read 1st face A: > BEGIN MUP1 Mupid Seite 1 - SSSD 96 tpi 5.25" > DENSITY FM ,LOW > CYLINDERS 80 > SIDES 1 > SECTORS 10,256 > SIDE1 0 0,2,4,6,8,1,3,5,7,9 > BSH 4 BLM 15 EXM 1 DSM 96 DRM 127 AL0 0C0H AL1 0 OFS 3 > END > And this for to read the other side B: > BEGIN MUP2 Mupid Seite 2 - SSSD 96 tpi 5.25" > DENSITY FM ,LOW > CYLINDERS 80 > SIDES 2 > SECTORS 10,256 > SIDE2 0 0,2,4,6,8,1,3,5,7,9 > SIDE1 0 0,2,4,6,8,1,3,5,7,9 > ORDER CYLINDERS > BSH 4 BLM 15 EXM 1 DSM 96 DRM 127 AL0 0C0H AL1 0 OFS 3 > END > Right? WRITE PROTECT ALL OF THOSE DISKS, BEFORE YOU START! Can you tell us the NAME of the machine? (Unless the NAME is "1981 Italian Z80") WHAT SIZE disk is it? Is it 26 128 byte sectors, or is it 10 256 byte sectors? 35, 40, 70, 77, or 80 cylinders/tracks? What kind of drive? 3"? 3.25"? 3.5"? ((8" 26 * 128 * 77) is not the same as (5.25" 10 * 256 * 80)) Yes, a 5.25" SSSD disk CAN hold 18 128 byte sector per track, but you might have to squeeze the [inter-sector] gaps a little, so 16 may be a more conservative choice. In the sector headers, . . . On the second side, is the "HEAD NUMBER" field, in the C/H/R/N sector headers, 0? or 1? If 0, then you really should try unplugging the heads of the drive and swapping them. That will put "side A/0" on the second/B side of the disk. If the "HEAD NUMBER" field, in the C/H/R/N sector headers, is 1 Then you are best off doing as Chuck suggested, and LYING to the transfer program to tell it that it is a format that goes UP the first side, then retracts to track 0 and then goes UP the second side, (there were numerous formats that did that) but that you want the transfer program to IGNORE the first half of each disk ("side A"). Ignoring the first half in that case can be done on a CP/M disk by saying that the number of "RESERVED TRACKS" (system tracks to be ignored for data transfer) includes the entire first side, and the first few of the second side. If you can image the disk with a DOCUMENTED image structure, then consider writing some trivial code to split the image, to give you separate images of the two sides, and then try to read the files from each of those, as if they were two single sided drives. Or, write a disk copy program to read the second side, and copy it to the first side of a scratch disk. BTW, the "each side is a separate drive" patches for PC-DOS 1.00 were 8 512 byte sectors on each side, with 40 tracks, so those would not help. Yes, we're all bozos on this bus. ("Firesign Theater" fourth album) But, when it comes to disk formats, none of the rest of us bozos can compare to Chuck. > This is the greatest "don't try to teach your grandmother how to steal > sheep" moment I've seen all year. \o/ BTW, in cultures that frown on stealing sheep, that is sometimes expressed as "teaching grandma to suck eggs". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 6 14:27:13 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 12:27:13 -0800 Subject: R: Floppy disk: one drive per face In-Reply-To: References: <72F899CE1CCB42E48C3CB8EDDD46ED4E@EnricoPC> Message-ID: On 11/6/20 11:41 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Yes, we're all bozos on this bus.? ("Firesign Theater" fourth album) > But, when it comes to disk formats, > none of the rest of us bozos can compare to Chuck. I can claim size 13 feet, so I'm pretty much on the way to being a real Bozo. Perhaps my mistake with 22Disk was not putting a line in that said "Me fecit Carolus Guzis Anno MCMLXXXVII" or some such. > BTW, in cultures that frown on stealing sheep, that is sometimes > expressed as "teaching grandma to suck eggs". That's the way I've always heard the expression, but I never asked either of my grandmothers if they could suck eggs. Never occurred to me to do so. --Chuck From enrico.lazzerini at email.it Fri Nov 6 15:19:57 2020 From: enrico.lazzerini at email.it (Enrico email.it) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 22:19:57 +0100 Subject: R: R: Floppy disk: one drive per face In-Reply-To: References: <72F899CE1CCB42E48C3CB8EDDD46ED4E@EnricoPC> Message-ID: <69FFFD0E6FA24086B942200BECD7C582@EnricoPC> First of all I would like to thank you all for every suggestion that comes from so much experience. I only know my Ferguson bigboard 1 pretty well The z80 based machine was called GENERAL PROCESSOR Model T year 1981. You can see it here: https://www.vintagesbc.it/?page_id=877 and the cards it was equipped with here: https://www.vintagesbc.it/?page_id=879 even if it is old information because I, together with a competent hardware technician and another enthusiast who has already written an emulator HERE: https://nippur72.github.io/gpmodelt-emu/ (you have to press CR to start then BD and enter ...) and the emulator video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRmmUYkaDxs&feature=youtu.be we are proceeding to derive electrical schematics, save firmware, software, and try to reconstruct and document everything. You have to think that they used a WD1791 which has an inverted data bus and in the firmware they use CPL instruction to invert it again so on the disk the CP / M (CCP + BDOS + bios) is written all INVERTed. Based on the firmware on eprom configuration it could manage: - 2 drives 8 "(128x26x77) or 5" (128x18 (maybe 16) x40) all in FM and seen as A, b, c, d - 1 8 "DSDD single B unit and 1 HD 10MB Winchester drive (divided into 2 halves A and C) At the beginning the engineers made ibm 3740 in side A. Only after they passed to make a drive double face so we think they didn't change things also because it seems to be possible to boot from both side A and side B and we expect the side B of drive A it would in IBM 3740 format. We noticed that the sectors always start from ZERO and not from 1 so it is interesting what you say: ?you really should try unplugging the heads of the drive and swapping them. That will put "side A / 0" on the second / B side of the disk.! " Enrico -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Fred Cisin via cctalk Inviato: venerd? 6 novembre 2020 20:41 A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Oggetto: Re: R: Floppy disk: one drive per face On Fri, 6 Nov 2020, Enrico email.it via cctalk wrote: > We are trying to read some floppy disk used on a 1981 Italian Z80 > machine with CP / M. > We saved an image with IMD and we know that the geometry of face A is > IBM 3740 26x128x77 tracks. > By inserting this data into the 22DISK definition file we can > successfully extract the CP / M files from A side. > So this for to read 1st face A: > BEGIN MUP1 Mupid Seite 1 - SSSD 96 tpi 5.25" > DENSITY FM ,LOW > CYLINDERS 80 > SIDES 1 > SECTORS 10,256 > SIDE1 0 0,2,4,6,8,1,3,5,7,9 > BSH 4 BLM 15 EXM 1 DSM 96 DRM 127 AL0 0C0H AL1 0 OFS 3 > END > And this for to read the other side B: > BEGIN MUP2 Mupid Seite 2 - SSSD 96 tpi 5.25" > DENSITY FM ,LOW > CYLINDERS 80 > SIDES 2 > SECTORS 10,256 > SIDE2 0 0,2,4,6,8,1,3,5,7,9 > SIDE1 0 0,2,4,6,8,1,3,5,7,9 > ORDER CYLINDERS > BSH 4 BLM 15 EXM 1 DSM 96 DRM 127 AL0 0C0H AL1 0 OFS 3 > END > Right? WRITE PROTECT ALL OF THOSE DISKS, BEFORE YOU START! Can you tell us the NAME of the machine? (Unless the NAME is "1981 Italian Z80") WHAT SIZE disk is it? Is it 26 128 byte sectors, or is it 10 256 byte sectors? 35, 40, 70, 77, or 80 cylinders/tracks? What kind of drive? 3"? 3.25"? 3.5"? ((8" 26 * 128 * 77) is not the same as (5.25" 10 * 256 * 80)) Yes, a 5.25" SSSD disk CAN hold 18 128 byte sector per track, but you might have to squeeze the [inter-sector] gaps a little, so 16 may be a more conservative choice. In the sector headers, . . . On the second side, is the "HEAD NUMBER" field, in the C/H/R/N sector headers, 0? or 1? If 0, then you really should try unplugging the heads of the drive and swapping them. That will put "side A/0" on the second/B side of the disk. If the "HEAD NUMBER" field, in the C/H/R/N sector headers, is 1 Then you are best off doing as Chuck suggested, and LYING to the transfer program to tell it that it is a format that goes UP the first side, then retracts to track 0 and then goes UP the second side, (there were numerous formats that did that) but that you want the transfer program to IGNORE the first half of each disk ("side A"). Ignoring the first half in that case can be done on a CP/M disk by saying that the number of "RESERVED TRACKS" (system tracks to be ignored for data transfer) includes the entire first side, and the first few of the second side. If you can image the disk with a DOCUMENTED image structure, then consider writing some trivial code to split the image, to give you separate images of the two sides, and then try to read the files from each of those, as if they were two single sided drives. Or, write a disk copy program to read the second side, and copy it to the first side of a scratch disk. BTW, the "each side is a separate drive" patches for PC-DOS 1.00 were 8 512 byte sectors on each side, with 40 tracks, so those would not help. Yes, we're all bozos on this bus. ("Firesign Theater" fourth album) But, when it comes to disk formats, none of the rest of us bozos can compare to Chuck. > This is the greatest "don't try to teach your grandmother how to steal > sheep" moment I've seen all year. \o/ BTW, in cultures that frown on stealing sheep, that is sometimes expressed as "teaching grandma to suck eggs". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 6 16:15:34 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 14:15:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: R: R: Floppy disk: one drive per face In-Reply-To: <69FFFD0E6FA24086B942200BECD7C582@EnricoPC> References: <72F899CE1CCB42E48C3CB8EDDD46ED4E@EnricoPC> <69FFFD0E6FA24086B942200BECD7C582@EnricoPC> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Nov 2020, Enrico email.it via cctalk wrote: > First of all I would like to thank you all for every suggestion that comes > from so much experience. I only know my Ferguson bigboard 1 pretty well > The z80 based machine was called GENERAL PROCESSOR Model T year 1981. > You can see it here: https://www.vintagesbc.it/?page_id=877 and the cards it > was equipped with here: https://www.vintagesbc.it/?page_id=879 even if it is > old information because I, together with a competent hardware technician and > another enthusiast who has already written an emulator HERE: > https://nippur72.github.io/gpmodelt-emu/ (you have to press CR to start then > BD and enter ...) > and the emulator video here: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRmmUYkaDxs&feature=youtu.be we are > proceeding to derive electrical schematics, save firmware, software, and try > to reconstruct and document everything. > You have to think that they used a WD1791 which has an inverted data bus and > in the firmware they use CPL instruction to invert it again so on the disk > the CP / M (CCP + BDOS + bios) is written all INVERTed. > Based on the firmware on eprom configuration it could manage: > - 2 drives 8 "(128x26x77) or 5" (128x18 (maybe 16) x40) all in FM and seen > as A, b, c, d > - 1 8 "DSDD single B unit and 1 HD 10MB Winchester drive (divided into 2 > halves A and C) > At the beginning the engineers made ibm 3740 in side A. Only after they > passed to make a drive double face so we think they didn't change things > also because it seems to be possible to boot from both side A and side B and > we expect the side B of drive A it would in IBM 3740 format. > We noticed that the sectors always start from ZERO and not from 1 so it is > interesting what you say: ?you really should try unplugging the heads of the > drive and swapping them. That will put "side A / 0" on the second / B side > of the disk.! " You did an excellent job of answering the questions! The NAME probably doesn't matter, but it's always good to include, in case anybody here might possibly have previously dealt with it. With a WD179x, it is a little surprising that they didn't use MFM ("double density"). On the other hand, 8" SSSD is "THE STANDARD", so must be supported, and/or if earlier models had used the WD1771 FDC, this could be a legacy format. The extreme standardization of CP/M 8" SSSD is another reason to justify the replication onto second side, instead of changing the format. I once pleaded with Gary Kildall to officially declare a 5.25" secondary disk format standard. His reply was, "THE STANDARD is 8 inch Single Sided Sigle Density."; it was understandable that he would not tolerate creation of a "secondary standard". Although, we ended up with about 2500 different microcomputer disk formats, due to the lack of standards for 8" DSSD, 8" SSDD, 8" DSDD, 5.25" SSSD, 5.25" DSSD, 5.25" SSDD, 5.25" DSDD. (MOST of which could have been prevented with an official proclamation from DRI.) Swapping the head cables might be a simple way around it, IFF the second side is formatted exactly the same as the first. One obvious possible difference is the head number field in the sector headers. If EXACTLY the same, then both would have 0 in that field. BUT, it could have 1 on the second side (which will make it easier to read with an NEC chip). And, the WD179x controllers didn't really care much about that field, so it could be ANYTHING, including wildly wrong numbers. In most cases, the WD chip wouldn't even notice if that field had the wrong value, but the NEC chip needs to know what value to expect and look for. If the imaging that included the second side was done successfully with IMD, then that implies a 1 in the head number field on the second side. Not insurmountable, but it means that just swapping the heads will still require some special software. If the imaging that included the second side was done successfully with IMD, then consider the possibility of either doing the file transfers from those images, or writing some minor software to split those images into two separate single sided images. The inverted data isn't a serious problem, although it is inconvenient when looking at the data to see whether it is successful. But, it is easy to work around. Another possible complication, if you are trying to do the transfer on a PC is that the WD179x controllers could start the beginning of a track sooner after the index pulse than the PC NEC765 controllers can handle. That is usually not too hard to work around, but is something to watch for, particularly if you get failures to read the first sector of each track. Not all NEC floppy controllers can do FM and/or 128 byte sectors. Dave Dunfield has created some test routines for checking that. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Nov 7 10:28:33 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2020 11:28:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: R: Floppy disk: one drive per face Message-ID: <20201107162833.6C5B618C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Chuck Guzis > Perhaps my mistake with 22Disk was not putting a line in that said "Me > fecit Carolus Guzis Anno MCMLXXXVII" or some such. Love the Michaelangelo reference. I'm curious as to how many others on the list got it. (It's carved into the strap on the Pieta. Apparently when it was first put on display, there was some question as to who'd made, or something like that.) Noel From ylee at columbia.edu Sun Nov 1 17:19:47 2020 From: ylee at columbia.edu (Yeechang Lee) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2020 15:19:47 -0800 Subject: Strange magtape anecdote In-Reply-To: <0c3c72c4d4c3f5b7960b25423ca03876fd69a02f.camel@shiresoft.com> References: <02be4bb0-1bf0-02e0-4534-fbf5575eb4c0@bitsavers.org> <533dc1ff-b007-6148-e149-422fc3da09f4@farumdata.dk> <0c3c72c4d4c3f5b7960b25423ca03876fd69a02f.camel@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <24479.17043.792816.529771@dobie-old.ylee.org> Guy Sotomayor says: > We had a similar problem when I was at IBM and we were developing a > follow on to the PC/AT (it never shipped). Was this the "PC II" (a "true" sequel to the PC) that magazines constantly talked about IBM working on, until the PS/2 disappointed everyone? -- geo:37.783333,-122.416667 From dennis.grevenstein at gmail.com Sun Nov 1 02:41:22 2020 From: dennis.grevenstein at gmail.com (Dennis Grevenstein) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2020 09:41:22 +0100 Subject: removing melting rubber from metal? Message-ID: > The rubber feet melted. [?] > I have no clue how it got that hot, or if they are just some composition for them to melt. My question is how do I clean this up? It is probably not heat that melted the rubber. It?s likely degradation. Some rubber parts get dry and break, some parts sort of ?melt? and turn into this sticky, nasty glue. You already got some hints on how to clean this, but if you are nervous, you could start off with just isopropanol (that?s the main ingredient in disinfectant). The advantage here would be that you can?t harm plastic or electronics with that. You could use the common medical grade disinfectant, just don?t drink it ;-) Dennis From stephenbuck at mac.com Mon Nov 2 18:16:03 2020 From: stephenbuck at mac.com (Stephen Buck) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2020 00:16:03 -0000 Subject: Looking for PDP-11/23+ parts for museum restoration Message-ID: <36a33f91-38d9-4ce9-a4c7-df530a73f55f@me.com> Hi All, I'm working on restoring a DEC PDP-11/23+ for the University of Colorado computer museum and I'm struggling to find a few parts, working or not, needed to complete the system. Please let me know if you have any of these items and would be willing to donate or sell them. You can see a blog I'm keeping of the restoration at?https://headspinlabs.wordpress.com/dec-pdp-11 When finished, it will be on display at?https://mediaarchaeologylab.com/visit Thanks, Steve From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Fri Nov 6 14:11:50 2020 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2020 14:11:50 -0600 Subject: Systems Engineering Laboratories - SEL History In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <18531409-fac9-ac31-1941-fe5c458131e0@figureeightbrewing.com> I worked at Gould CSD in Urbana on the Powernode Unix kernel from '86-'88 and knew the machines were descendants of SEL machines, but that is about it. The ECL based logic was named "firebreather" for a reason. They were the fastest thing at the time. Being a computer company in Urbana Illinois, we all joked about being where the HAL 9000 would eventually be born. It was my first real job out of college, so I had a blast, right up until the company laid off a large portion of our office in a single day. I think I still have a t-shirt which says "Gould lost $300M and all I got was this lousy t-shirt". I wasn't on the list, but I left shortly thereafter. The people I worked with were all top notch and I missed them after leaving. --tom On 11/6/20 1:37 PM, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: > My memories of SEL beginnings are dusty. and rusty. I recall a bunch > of their systems being used in science related efforts, beecause of > the high IO capability. At the time, for NASA and others, it was the > ideal platform for data collection. Not a bad compute capability - > many other systems in that space could do compute efforts more > quickly, but the none could match data IO for years. iirc, this was in > both the 16 and 32 bit lines. > I alwo recall when some folks from DEC VAX et al efforts left and > joined SEL - yep there is some back story there. > bob > > On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 2:35 PM Eric Moore via cctalk > wrote: >> Hello, I have pulled together a website with links to resources and >> information on SEL, or Systems Engineering Laboratories. >> >> http://mnembler.com >> >> SEL was a computer manufacturer in the 60s and 70s which later was acquired >> by Gould and then Encore. They made many major innovations and were >> instrumental in the success of the Apollo program. >> >> The website is still a work in progress, but I did want to share it with >> yall. >> >> -Eric From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Nov 8 11:12:29 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2020 09:12:29 -0800 Subject: Systems Engineering Laboratories - SEL History In-Reply-To: <18531409-fac9-ac31-1941-fe5c458131e0@figureeightbrewing.com> References: <18531409-fac9-ac31-1941-fe5c458131e0@figureeightbrewing.com> Message-ID: On 11/6/20 12:11 PM, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: > The ECL based logic was named "firebreather" for a reason. They were the > fastest thing at the time. If you look at the Gould advertising at the time, it was a picture of a fire-breathing dragon toasting a DEC salesman running away. From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Nov 8 13:18:44 2020 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2020 14:18:44 -0500 Subject: Looking for PDP-11/23+ parts for museum restoration In-Reply-To: <36a33f91-38d9-4ce9-a4c7-df530a73f55f@me.com> References: <36a33f91-38d9-4ce9-a4c7-df530a73f55f@me.com> Message-ID: On 2020-11-02 19:16, Stephen Buck via cctalk wrote: > Hi All, > > I'm working on restoring a DEC PDP-11/23+ for the University of Colorado > computer museum and I'm struggling to find a few parts, working or not, > needed to complete the system. Please let me know if you have any of > these items and would be willing to donate or sell them. What are you looking for exactly? Looking at your blog, you are pretty far, having a nice machine there already... Cheers From steven at malikoff.com Sun Nov 8 15:34:39 2020 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 07:34:39 +1000 Subject: Systems Engineering Laboratories - SEL History In-Reply-To: References: <18531409-fac9-ac31-1941-fe5c458131e0@figureeightbrewing.com> Message-ID: <4f7a63dae5afa1a0ee095fcd9965ba81.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Al said > On 11/6/20 12:11 PM, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: >> The ECL based logic was named "firebreather" for a reason. They were the >> fastest thing at the time. > > If you look at the Gould advertising at the time, it was a picture of a > fire-breathing dragon toasting a DEC salesman running away. The ad must have worked. Although our uni was the first in Australia to provide 11/780's for teaching and research, in later years third year comp sci was moved to a new Gould PN6080, because they got a good deal. Everyone just called it "the Gould". It's so hard to find a picture of this machine, a while ago I found an eBay ad for the PowerNode series which was about all I have. Steve. From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Nov 8 20:17:27 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2020 21:17:27 -0500 Subject: Syquest druve owner in 541 area code? (Usa) Message-ID: Thus came into my site, if you can help contact me privatelthanks Bill VintageComputer.net Inquiry Contact Information Name: Robert Email: robwynia at ------ Phone: 541967---- ------------------------- Comments: I have an old Syquest 5.25" removable cartridge (44MB) and am trying to find a service that will get the graphics data off the cartridge for me. If you have any suggestions I'd LOVE to hear them. It seems impossible to find anyone with a functioning drive to read this thing. Thanks for your time, From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Nov 8 20:25:08 2020 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2020 20:25:08 -0600 Subject: Syquest druve owner in 541 area code? (Usa) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20201109023357.E81DE4E679@mx2.ezwind.net> At 08:17 PM 11/8/2020, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Thus came into my site, if you can help contact me privatelthanks >... > I have an old Syquest 5.25" removable cartridge (44MB) and am >trying to find a service that will get the graphics data off the cartridge >for me. If you have any suggestions I'd LOVE to hear them. It seems >impossible to find anyone with a functioning drive to read this thing. I was thinking about firing up the old (late 80s?) drive I have in storage and trying to image the carts I have. What should I watch for? Any typical failure mode? - John From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Sun Nov 8 21:02:41 2020 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2020 22:02:41 -0500 Subject: Systems Engineering Laboratories - SEL History In-Reply-To: <4f7a63dae5afa1a0ee095fcd9965ba81.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <18531409-fac9-ac31-1941-fe5c458131e0@figureeightbrewing.com> <4f7a63dae5afa1a0ee095fcd9965ba81.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: Eric: Thanks for starting this. I've been doing little updates to the SEL wikipedia pages recently, but a dedicated site would be great. I used the machines heavily from 1977-1995, most of the 32/X series, as well as the NP1. AFAIK, I was the first person to get C++ (cfront) working under UTX-32. Alas, I didn't save any literature from the period. On Sun, Nov 8, 2020 at 4:34 PM Steve Malikoff via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Al said > > On 11/6/20 12:11 PM, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: > >> The ECL based logic was named "firebreather" for a reason. They were the > >> fastest thing at the time. > > > > If you look at the Gould advertising at the time, it was a picture of a > > fire-breathing dragon toasting a DEC salesman running away. > > The ad must have worked. Although our uni was the first in Australia to > provide 11/780's > for teaching and research, in later years third year comp sci was moved to > a new Gould > PN6080, because they got a good deal. Everyone just called it "the Gould". > > It's so hard to find a picture of this machine, a while ago I found an > eBay ad for the > PowerNode series which was about all I have. > > Steve. > > From mooreericnyc at gmail.com Sun Nov 8 21:51:20 2020 From: mooreericnyc at gmail.com (Eric Moore) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2020 21:51:20 -0600 Subject: Systems Engineering Laboratories - SEL History In-Reply-To: References: <18531409-fac9-ac31-1941-fe5c458131e0@figureeightbrewing.com> <4f7a63dae5afa1a0ee095fcd9965ba81.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: You are welcome! I have had a blast restoring and running my SEL 810A and wanted to pull together some of what I had found, done, and helped with. It is really just a placeholder for now until there is a critical mass of interest. The SEL 810 emulators are really awesome. Kgober's can run SEL 810A basic. The SEL 810A gui I hope to soon improve, someone is helping me with an SVG file of the front panel to replace the picture I am currently using. I would like to someday acquire a 32/X or a powernode, but they are rare as hens teeth apparently. I also would really like to find more info on the ampex videofile. -Eric On Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 21:02 Tony Aiuto wrote: > Eric: > > Thanks for starting this. I've been doing little updates to the SEL > wikipedia pages recently, but a dedicated site would be great. I used the > machines heavily from 1977-1995, most of the 32/X series, as well as the > NP1. AFAIK, I was the first person to get C++ (cfront) working under > UTX-32. > Alas, I didn't save any literature from the period. > > >> From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Nov 9 01:41:33 2020 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 08:41:33 +0100 (CET) Subject: R: Floppy disk: one drive per face In-Reply-To: References: <72F899CE1CCB42E48C3CB8EDDD46ED4E@EnricoPC> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Nov 2020, "Enrico email.it" wrote: > So this for to read 1st face A: > > BEGIN MUP1 Mupid Seite 1 - SSSD 96 tpi 5.25" [...] > And this for to read the other side B: > > BEGIN MUP2 Mupid Seite 2 - SSSD 96 tpi 5.25" [...] Absolutely correct :-) Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Nov 9 01:50:05 2020 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 08:50:05 +0100 (CET) Subject: Floppy disk: one drive per face In-Reply-To: References: <72F899CE1CCB42E48C3CB8EDDD46ED4E@EnricoPC> <1e0c28a5-3a32-499a-b0a5-ffd9c7ad8499@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Nov 2020, geneb wrote: > On Fri, 6 Nov 2020, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: [...] >> I prefer my solution. If you opt to format the second side, you'll end >> up clobbering the first side in the process. But then, what does this >> bozo know? > FYI Christian, in case you weren't aware the "bozo" above /wrote/ 22disk. :D I know that *g* But I haven't read Chuck's solution before sending my post. And BTW my 22disk entries are quite old (I think 15 years or so) and the documentation[1] does not mention the keyword "EAGLE". So how could I know about it?? Christian [1] File 22DISK.DOC from the 22DISK V1.44 package "[...] 22DISK A CP/M-to-DOS Diskette Interchange Utility Version 1.40, September, 1993 Copyright 1988-1993, Sydex, Inc. [...] " The README " 22DISK Version 1.44 Distribution Information October, 1996 [...] " From rice43 at btinternet.com Mon Nov 9 02:22:15 2020 From: rice43 at btinternet.com (rice43) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 08:22:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Looking for PDP-11/23+ parts for museum restoration In-Reply-To: References: <36a33f91-38d9-4ce9-a4c7-df530a73f55f@me.com> Message-ID: <5e73a7d1.c6ef.175ac1939d9.Webtop.104@btinternet.com> I believe he's just looking for a BA23 rackmount faceplate, an RL02 drive and a 3U blanking plate for those half-height PDP-11 cabinets What are you looking for exactly? Looking at your blog, you are pretty far, having a nice machine there already... Cheers From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 9 10:42:45 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 08:42:45 -0800 Subject: Floppy disk: one drive per face In-Reply-To: References: <72F899CE1CCB42E48C3CB8EDDD46ED4E@EnricoPC> <1e0c28a5-3a32-499a-b0a5-ffd9c7ad8499@sydex.com> Message-ID: <503cffc9-0949-4a7c-921b-713f793a665a@sydex.com> On 11/8/20 11:50 PM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 6 Nov 2020, geneb wrote: >> On Fri, 6 Nov 2020, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > [...] >>> I prefer my solution.? If you opt to format the second side, you'll end >>> up clobbering the first side in the process.?? But then, what does this >>> bozo know? >> FYI Christian, in case you weren't aware the "bozo" above /wrote/ >> 22disk. :D > > I know that *g* > But I haven't read Chuck's solution before sending my post. And BTW my > 22disk entries are quite old (I think 15 years or so) and the > documentation[1] does not mention the keyword "EAGLE". So how could I > know about it?? > Did you register your copy 15 years ago? If so, you're entitled to free updates. Just saying... --Chuck From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Mon Nov 9 11:15:27 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 09:15:27 -0800 Subject: Floppy disk: one drive per face In-Reply-To: <503cffc9-0949-4a7c-921b-713f793a665a@sydex.com> References: <72F899CE1CCB42E48C3CB8EDDD46ED4E@EnricoPC> <1e0c28a5-3a32-499a-b0a5-ffd9c7ad8499@sydex.com> <503cffc9-0949-4a7c-921b-713f793a665a@sydex.com> Message-ID: <018f01d6b6bb$ebda2510$c38e6f30$@net> > Did you register your copy 15 years ago? If so, you're entitled to > free > updates. Just saying... Chuck, How do we know when new versions are out? And can we just dl them or do we have to ask for them? Thanks. -Ali From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Nov 9 11:19:46 2020 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 09:19:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Floppy disk: one drive per face In-Reply-To: <503cffc9-0949-4a7c-921b-713f793a665a@sydex.com> References: <72F899CE1CCB42E48C3CB8EDDD46ED4E@EnricoPC> <1e0c28a5-3a32-499a-b0a5-ffd9c7ad8499@sydex.com> <503cffc9-0949-4a7c-921b-713f793a665a@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Nov 2020, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 11/8/20 11:50 PM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: >> On Fri, 6 Nov 2020, geneb wrote: >>> On Fri, 6 Nov 2020, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> [...] >>>> I prefer my solution.? If you opt to format the second side, you'll end >>>> up clobbering the first side in the process.?? But then, what does this >>>> bozo know? >>> FYI Christian, in case you weren't aware the "bozo" above /wrote/ >>> 22disk. :D >> >> I know that *g* >> But I haven't read Chuck's solution before sending my post. And BTW my >> 22disk entries are quite old (I think 15 years or so) and the >> documentation[1] does not mention the keyword "EAGLE". So how could I >> know about it?? >> > Did you register your copy 15 years ago? If so, you're entitled to free > updates. Just saying... Can it still be registered? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 9 14:41:52 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 13:41:52 -0700 Subject: Floppy disk: one drive per face In-Reply-To: References: <72F899CE1CCB42E48C3CB8EDDD46ED4E@EnricoPC> <1e0c28a5-3a32-499a-b0a5-ffd9c7ad8499@sydex.com> <503cffc9-0949-4a7c-921b-713f793a665a@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 11/9/2020 10:19 AM, geneb via cctalk wrote: > Can it still be registered? Is the Author find able? Do he still have 8" floppies? *** Will it NOT be lost in the mail with COVID 19 *** Software today is the big if. The S-100 people are still making new cards for old hardware. http://www.s100computers.com/index.html Even a PDP11 for the S100 bus. Ben. From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Mon Nov 9 15:06:36 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2020 13:06:36 -0800 Subject: Floppy disk: one drive per face In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0MMksD-1kfo4A0VAt-008d22@mrelay.perfora.net> > Can it still be registered?>Is the Author find able? Do he still have 8" floppies??> *** Will it NOT be lost in the mail with COVID 19 ***A deep googlefu might find the author... just saying...;) From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 9 16:10:53 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 14:10:53 -0800 Subject: Floppy disk: one drive per face In-Reply-To: References: <72F899CE1CCB42E48C3CB8EDDD46ED4E@EnricoPC> <1e0c28a5-3a32-499a-b0a5-ffd9c7ad8499@sydex.com> <503cffc9-0949-4a7c-921b-713f793a665a@sydex.com> Message-ID: <52945441-5475-bf48-b504-aef0c8d4b581@sydex.com> On 11/9/20 12:41 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 11/9/2020 10:19 AM, geneb via cctalk wrote: > >> Can it still be registered? > > Is the Author find able? Do he still have 8" floppies? What, is this a question akin to ????? ???????? ?????? ???????? I don't think it would take a Delphic oracle to do that. Hell, I still have 3.25" floppies. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 9 16:21:24 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 15:21:24 -0700 Subject: Floppy disk: one drive per face In-Reply-To: <52945441-5475-bf48-b504-aef0c8d4b581@sydex.com> References: <72F899CE1CCB42E48C3CB8EDDD46ED4E@EnricoPC> <1e0c28a5-3a32-499a-b0a5-ffd9c7ad8499@sydex.com> <503cffc9-0949-4a7c-921b-713f793a665a@sydex.com> <52945441-5475-bf48-b504-aef0c8d4b581@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1fc7e893-0d14-077d-df81-cc68358e39c2@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/9/2020 3:10 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 11/9/20 12:41 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >> On 11/9/2020 10:19 AM, geneb via cctalk wrote: >> >>> Can it still be registered? >> >> Is the Author find able? Do he still have 8" floppies? > > What, is this a question akin to ????? ???????? ?????? ???????? I don't > think it would take a Delphic oracle to do that. > > Hell, I still have 3.25" floppies. > > --Chuck > Oracles are even harder to find, than 8" floppies. They know you are coming. :) Ben. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 9 17:03:03 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 15:03:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Floppy disk: one drive per face In-Reply-To: References: <72F899CE1CCB42E48C3CB8EDDD46ED4E@EnricoPC> <1e0c28a5-3a32-499a-b0a5-ffd9c7ad8499@sydex.com> <503cffc9-0949-4a7c-921b-713f793a665a@sydex.com> Message-ID: >> Can it still be registered? On Mon, 9 Nov 2020, ben via cctalk wrote: > Is the Author find able? Do he still have 8" floppies? That can rapidly turn into "Does he WANT to be found?" When he did a project, even a major one, it was with an implicit promise of a REASONABLE period of support. Not a commitment to a lifetime sentence of support without further compensation. Make it worth his while. Provide him with an interesting sample disk. Or an good tuba (Meinl-Weston or Alexander, not Cerveny). Or a REALLY good meatball sandwich. yes, he still has 8" floppies. Hard and soft-sectored. (I had to ask my sister what were good tubas. She blows the last french horn that Lawson personally made.) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred From lproven at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 17:12:05 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 00:12:05 +0100 Subject: Floppy disk: one drive per face In-Reply-To: References: <72F899CE1CCB42E48C3CB8EDDD46ED4E@EnricoPC> <1e0c28a5-3a32-499a-b0a5-ffd9c7ad8499@sydex.com> <503cffc9-0949-4a7c-921b-713f793a665a@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Nov 2020 at 21:41, ben via cctalk wrote: > > Is the Author find able? Do he still have 8" floppies? Dude. Really. Pay attention. The author has been posting in this thread. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Mon Nov 9 17:44:03 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 15:44:03 -0800 Subject: Way off topic: posting to the list using default Samsung Android Mail Client Message-ID: <000601d6b6f2$359c39a0$a0d4ace0$@net> I am wondering if anyone else has tried using an Android Phone (a Note 10 in my case) with the default Samsung email client to post to this list? Whenever I post, even though the message is correctly formatted on my device, all the CR/LF are removed from my messages. See below for an example: ------- > Can it still be registered?>Is the Author find able? Do he still have 8" floppies? > *** Will it NOT be lost in the mail with COVID 19 ***A deep googlefu might find the author... just saying...;) ------- However, when I sent it, it looked like this: > Can it still be registered? >Is the Author find able? Do he still have 8" floppies? > *** Will it NOT be lost in the mail with COVID 19 *** A deep googlefu might find the author... just saying...;) Sending from trusty old Outlook 2007 on Win 7 works fine with the list and emailing people back directly from the phone seems to work fine as well. It is only when I am replying to the list that the issue occurs. Any ideas/suggestions? TIA! -Ali From lproven at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 18:01:51 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 01:01:51 +0100 Subject: Way off topic: posting to the list using default Samsung Android Mail Client In-Reply-To: <000601d6b6f2$359c39a0$a0d4ace0$@net> References: <000601d6b6f2$359c39a0$a0d4ace0$@net> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Nov 2020 at 00:44, Ali via cctalk wrote: > Any > ideas/suggestions? TIA! https://k9mail.app/ https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.fsck.k9&hl=en&gl=US -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Mon Nov 9 18:28:23 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 16:28:23 -0800 Subject: Way off topic: posting to the list using default Samsung Android Mail Client In-Reply-To: References: <000601d6b6f2$359c39a0$a0d4ace0$@net> Message-ID: <001601d6b6f8$66d38090$347a81b0$@net> > > Any > > ideas/suggestions? TIA! > > https://k9mail.app/ > > https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.fsck.k9&hl=en&gl=US > I should have been more clear: any ideas on how can I fix the default email client (as it works very well for me aside from this one issue). :D Thanks. -Ali From retrojoe at stateoftheark.ca Mon Nov 9 18:36:42 2020 From: retrojoe at stateoftheark.ca (Joe Piche) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 17:36:42 -0700 Subject: VT-320 interfacing Message-ID: Hi All. I've recently come into a really nice VT-320 terminal, but am having a hell of a time getting it to communicate with the outside world (mainly my PiDP-8 and PiDP-11). I've gone to the lowest common denominator, using a USB serial cable and terminal software to verify everything is working before digging into making simh output to a serial terminal. The VT320 only has the DEC-423 MMJ, no RS-232. I found a number of guides that show how to wire up the DEC-423 connector to a DB-9 RS-232, but so far I have struck out. It will receive text from the remote computer, but I do not see anything on the remote when I type on the VT-320. I have loop backed the TX to RX on the VT-320 terminal, and it does work. TX=RX Baud rate? in the VT320 settings, and the data bits, parity, & stop bits match. DEC-423 (lock tab bottom right, pin one on the left, 6 on the right) 1??? DTR 2??? TXD 3??? TXD- 4??? RXD- 5??? RXD 6??? DSR For a cross over cable: 423 #2 goes to DB9 #2 (TX to RX) 423 #3 & #4 to DB9 #5 (TXD- and RXD- to GND) 423 #5 goes to DB9 #3 (RX to TX) 423 #1 to DB9 #6 (DTR to DSR) 423 #6 to DB9 #4 (DSR to DTR) Does this look like it should work? It does leave DB9 RTS and CTS unconnected. Thanks! From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 9 19:40:50 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 17:40:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Way off topic: posting to the list using default Samsung Android Mail Client In-Reply-To: <000601d6b6f2$359c39a0$a0d4ace0$@net> References: <000601d6b6f2$359c39a0$a0d4ace0$@net> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Nov 2020, Ali via cctalk wrote: > I am wondering if anyone else has tried using an Android Phone (a Note 10 in > my case) with the default Samsung email client to post to this list? > Whenever I post, even though the message is correctly formatted on my > device, all the CR/LF are removed from my messages. See below for an > example: A WILD guess as to PART of what's causing it, . . . It may be defaulting to HTML. Is there a setting for HTML/plain-text? (if so, it might still not process plain-text properly; many "developers" consider it to be beneath them to include real plain-text support) Many/most html processors ignore CRLF, considering that to be merely composing white-space, not part of the intended result. When I was first trying to create raw HTML for my crude websites, I found that whatever whitespace I put into my raaw HTML was ignored, and I had to force breaks, extra space, tabs, etc. Try putting in
(less than, b r , greater than) See whether it gives us that literally, or puts in a break. Is the mail client sending directly, or is it relaying it through something else? From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Nov 9 19:53:57 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 18:53:57 -0700 Subject: VT-320 interfacing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/9/20 5:36 PM, Joe Piche via cctalk wrote: > Hi All. Hi, > The VT320 only has the DEC-423 MMJ, no RS-232. I /thought/ that Modified Modular Jack was simply a physical thing and completely independent of Recommended Standard 232. Every MMJ that I've run into has had RS-232 run through it perfectly fine. > I found a number of guides that show how to wire up the DEC-423 > connector to a DB-9 RS-232, but so far I have struck out. It will > receive text from the remote computer, but I do not see anything on the > remote when I type on the VT-320. Can you enable local-echo on the VT-320? If you can, do you see anything appear there when you type? > I have loop backed the TX to RX on the VT-320 terminal, and it does > work. TX=RX Baud rate? in the VT320 settings, and the data bits, parity, > & stop bits match. What, if any flow control is in use? > DEC-423 (lock tab bottom right, pin one on the left, 6 on the right) > 1??? DTR > 2??? TXD > 3??? TXD- > 4??? RXD- > 5??? RXD > 6??? DSR > > For a cross over cable: > 423 #2 goes to DB9 #2 (TX to RX) > 423 #3 & #4 to DB9 #5 (TXD- and RXD- to GND) > 423 #5 goes to DB9 #3 (RX to TX) > 423 #1 to DB9 #6 (DTR to DSR) > 423 #6 to DB9 #4 (DSR to DTR) > > Does this look like it should work? It does leave DB9 RTS and CTS > unconnected. That would likely be a problem for hardware flow control. > Thanks! Good luck. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Nov 9 20:27:37 2020 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 18:27:37 -0800 Subject: VT-320 interfacing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Nov 9, 2020, at 5:53 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > >> The VT320 only has the DEC-423 MMJ, no RS-232. > > I /thought/ that Modified Modular Jack was simply a physical thing and completely independent of Recommended Standard 232. DECconnect (aka MMJ) interface uses RS-423 electrical signaling, but it is compatible with RS-232 signaling aside from (I think) some reduced noise immunity over long lines when not using differential receivers. The official DEC H8571 DE9 to MMJ adapter is just a plain pinout adapter which grounds the TX- and RX- signals and doesn't bother with differential signaling. It drives DSR, CTS and CD on the PC-compatible end with DSR from the MMJ interface. At the moment, one of our friends here has one for sale on his Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/listing/875566987/dec-h8571-de9-to-mmj-terminal-serial Here's a page with details, including the wiring of that H8571 adapter: https://www.lammertbies.nl/comm/cable/dec-mmj#h71j -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X https://www.nf6x.net/ From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Mon Nov 9 22:42:48 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 20:42:48 -0800 Subject: Way off topic: posting to the list using default Samsung Android Mail Client In-Reply-To: References: <000601d6b6f2$359c39a0$a0d4ace0$@net> Message-ID: <002c01d6b71b$f13e24b0$d3ba6e10$@net> Fred, > A WILD guess as to PART of what's causing it, . . . > It may be defaulting to HTML. > Is there a setting for HTML/plain-text? (if so, it might still not > process plain-text properly; many "developers" consider it to be > beneath > them to include real plain-text support) It does not. I think it looks at the MIME type of message to decide what to do. What it may have to do is when I try to top post. I.e. if I try to reply under the quoted original message then this seems to happen. However, if I type above the quoted message it does not happen. > Is the mail client sending directly, or is it relaying it through > something else? > It is sending directly through my SMTP server. -Ali From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Nov 9 22:44:16 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 23:44:16 -0500 Subject: Looking for PDP-11/23+ parts for museum restoration In-Reply-To: <5e73a7d1.c6ef.175ac1939d9.Webtop.104@btinternet.com> References: <36a33f91-38d9-4ce9-a4c7-df530a73f55f@me.com> <5e73a7d1.c6ef.175ac1939d9.Webtop.104@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 3:22 AM rice43 via cctalk wrote: > I believe he's just looking for a BA23 rackmount faceplate, an RL02 > drive and a 3U blanking plate for those half-height PDP-11 cabinets The 5.25"-tall blank plate for the H9642 cabs is the H9504-SC, FWIW (not that it's a commonly-known name - I had to look it up in a brochure) >From reading the Blog, I think a BA11 might also be on the list, to swap in for the BA23 to get it back to its original 1981 look (his BA23 is fully functional, but newer). -ethan From mosst at SDF.ORG Mon Nov 9 23:00:42 2020 From: mosst at SDF.ORG (Thomas Moss) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 05:00:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Wanted: PDP-8/f or m (with or without cards) Message-ID: Hi All, I'm looking for a PDP-8/f or m. At a minimum I'd like the chassis with PSU, front panel, and backplane as I already have enough spare OMNIBUS boards to build up a basic system, although I'd still be interested in the boards if you have any. Depending on the configuration and condition there's a few things I'd consider trading, namely my PDP-11/34a, AlphaStation DS10, Intel MDS 231, and KIM-1. If the price it right I'd be happy to buy it too. I'm in the UK but would be prepared to ship some of the systems internationally; I can build crates and such. Regards, -Tom mosst at sdf.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - https://sdf.org From retrojoe at stateoftheark.ca Mon Nov 9 23:34:19 2020 From: retrojoe at stateoftheark.ca (retrojoe at stateoftheark.ca) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2020 22:34:19 -0700 Subject: VT-320 interfacing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000501d6b723$242dfba0$6c89f2e0$@stateoftheark.ca> I built that one, thank you for the link. Worked for a bit, then quit. If I move the wires around, I can get it to come and go, so it seems to be the old db9-F I used is garbage. I ordered new ones, just waiting for them to arrive. I'll send an update when I have a new connector. Thanks! -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Mark J. Blair via cctalk Sent: Monday, November 9, 2020 7:28 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: VT-320 interfacing > On Nov 9, 2020, at 5:53 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > >> The VT320 only has the DEC-423 MMJ, no RS-232. > > I /thought/ that Modified Modular Jack was simply a physical thing and completely independent of Recommended Standard 232. DECconnect (aka MMJ) interface uses RS-423 electrical signaling, but it is compatible with RS-232 signaling aside from (I think) some reduced noise immunity over long lines when not using differential receivers. The official DEC H8571 DE9 to MMJ adapter is just a plain pinout adapter which grounds the TX- and RX- signals and doesn't bother with differential signaling. It drives DSR, CTS and CD on the PC-compatible end with DSR from the MMJ interface. At the moment, one of our friends here has one for sale on his Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/listing/875566987/dec-h8571-de9-to-mmj-terminal-serial Here's a page with details, including the wiring of that H8571 adapter: https://www.lammertbies.nl/comm/cable/dec-mmj#h71j -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X https://www.nf6x.net/ From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 04:31:43 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 10:31:43 -0000 Subject: Way off topic: posting to the list using default Samsung Android Mail Client In-Reply-To: <001601d6b6f8$66d38090$347a81b0$@net> References: <000601d6b6f2$359c39a0$a0d4ace0$@net> <001601d6b6f8$66d38090$347a81b0$@net> Message-ID: <188001d6b74c$b01c4ad0$1054e070$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Ali via cctalk > Sent: 10 November 2020 00:28 > To: 'Liam Proven' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Way off topic: posting to the list using default Samsung Android > Mail Client > > > > Any > > > ideas/suggestions? TIA! > > > > https://k9mail.app/ > > > > https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.fsck.k9&hl=en&gl=US > > > > I should have been more clear: any ideas on how can I fix the default email > client (as it works very well for me aside from this one issue). :D > That is like asking how do you fix Windows/10 MAIL app. It?s the default, it sends and receives mail. If you want something that works better and gives you control then you switch to a supported app. There is also Outlook and a GMAIL app for Samsung. > Thanks. > > -Ali Dave From lproven at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 05:45:57 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 12:45:57 +0100 Subject: Way off topic: posting to the list using default Samsung Android Mail Client In-Reply-To: <188001d6b74c$b01c4ad0$1054e070$@gmail.com> References: <000601d6b6f2$359c39a0$a0d4ace0$@net> <001601d6b6f8$66d38090$347a81b0$@net> <188001d6b74c$b01c4ad0$1054e070$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Nov 2020 at 11:31, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk wrote: > > That is like asking how do you fix Windows/10 MAIL app. It?s the default, it sends and receives mail. If you want something that works better and gives you control then you switch to a supported app. > There is also Outlook and a GMAIL app for Samsung. What Dave said. Proper old-fashioned internet-standard email is totally unknown to the authors of modern email clients, such as for phones etc. No, you can't fix it. If you want to write/reply to old-style plain-text email from a fondleslab, then use K9Mail. It is the only mobile client I know of that can handle bottom-posting, trimming quotes etc. You can do it by hand with a lot of work in the Gmail client, but it means manual selection and trimming etc. I have not found any way to force plain text on mobile. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From jason at smbfc.net Tue Nov 10 11:18:42 2020 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 09:18:42 -0800 Subject: Way off topic: posting to the list using default Samsung Android Mail Client In-Reply-To: References: <000601d6b6f2$359c39a0$a0d4ace0$@net> <001601d6b6f8$66d38090$347a81b0$@net> <188001d6b74c$b01c4ad0$1054e070$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/10/20 3:45 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > Proper old-fashioned internet-standard email is totally unknown to the > authors of modern email clients, such as for phones etc. > Hell, even Gmail borked the display of plain text emails a while back. I started getting questions like, "What happened to the formatting of these auto-emails?" Gmail. Gmail happened. --Jason From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 11:20:52 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 12:20:52 -0500 Subject: Floppy disk: one drive per face In-Reply-To: <52945441-5475-bf48-b504-aef0c8d4b581@sydex.com> References: <72F899CE1CCB42E48C3CB8EDDD46ED4E@EnricoPC> <1e0c28a5-3a32-499a-b0a5-ffd9c7ad8499@sydex.com> <503cffc9-0949-4a7c-921b-713f793a665a@sydex.com> <52945441-5475-bf48-b504-aef0c8d4b581@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 5:11 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > What, is this a question akin to ????? ???????? ?????? ???????? I don't > think it would take a Delphic oracle to do that. Loving the classical references. -ethan From ama at ugr.es Tue Nov 10 12:27:12 2020 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel M Alganza) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 19:27:12 +0100 Subject: Way off topic: posting to the list using default Samsung Android Mail Client In-Reply-To: References: <000601d6b6f2$359c39a0$a0d4ace0$@net> <001601d6b6f8$66d38090$347a81b0$@net> <188001d6b74c$b01c4ad0$1054e070$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50C17CCF-275B-4EC0-AB5C-79DE9838AFBC@ugr.es> Hello, On 11/10/20 3:45 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Proper old-fashioned internet-standard email > is totally unknown to the authors of modern email clients, > such as for phones etc. Most of them, yes. Then there is K-9 mail for Android, which almost makes me to not miss Mutt, when using the phone. -- ?ngel O< http://www.asciiribbon.org/ campaign From rsmilward at frontier.com Tue Nov 10 12:47:28 2020 From: rsmilward at frontier.com (Richard Milward) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 13:47:28 -0500 Subject: Soldering DB connectors References: <58128b09-64e3-a6de-b346-858bb0d69234.ref@frontier.com> Message-ID: <58128b09-64e3-a6de-b346-858bb0d69234@frontier.com> Something that's always worked for me: when soldering a male DB connector (DB9, DB25, whatever -- or really any male/pin style connector), plug it into a mating female connector first. That will hold the pins securely in place and prevent them from sagging in the plastic of the body if your soldering iron is too hot or you hold it on too long. -- **Richard From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 14:44:22 2020 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 14:44:22 -0600 Subject: Soldering DB connectors In-Reply-To: <58128b09-64e3-a6de-b346-858bb0d69234@frontier.com> References: <58128b09-64e3-a6de-b346-858bb0d69234.ref@frontier.com> <58128b09-64e3-a6de-b346-858bb0d69234@frontier.com> Message-ID: now thats a pro tip On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 12:47 PM Richard Milward via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Something that's always worked for me: when soldering a male DB > connector (DB9, DB25, whatever -- or really any male/pin style > connector), plug it into a mating female connector first. That will hold > the pins securely in place and prevent them from sagging in the plastic > of the body if your soldering iron is too hot or you hold it on too long. > > -- > **Richard > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Nov 10 14:46:09 2020 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 12:46:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking for a boot disk or software... Message-ID: ...for a Northern Telcom (Telecom?) Spectron Datascope 4000: https://i.imgur.com/qb4VTpO.jpg Fingers crossed that someone here knows where it can be had. Thanks! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 15:00:07 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 16:00:07 -0500 Subject: Soldering DB connectors In-Reply-To: <58128b09-64e3-a6de-b346-858bb0d69234@frontier.com> References: <58128b09-64e3-a6de-b346-858bb0d69234.ref@frontier.com> <58128b09-64e3-a6de-b346-858bb0d69234@frontier.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 1:47 PM Richard Milward via cctalk wrote: > Something that's always worked for me: when soldering a male DB > connector (DB9, DB25, whatever -- or really any male/pin style > connector), plug it into a mating female connector first. That will hold > the pins securely in place and prevent them from sagging in the plastic > of the body if your soldering iron is too hot or you hold it on too long. Yep. Been doing it that way for a lot of years. Good tip! -ethan From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Nov 10 15:24:04 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 14:24:04 -0700 Subject: Looking for PDP-11/23+ parts for museum restoration In-Reply-To: References: <36a33f91-38d9-4ce9-a4c7-df530a73f55f@me.com> <5e73a7d1.c6ef.175ac1939d9.Webtop.104@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 9:44 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Nov 9, 2020 at 3:22 AM rice43 via cctalk > wrote: > > I believe he's just looking for a BA23 rackmount faceplate, an RL02 > > drive and a 3U blanking plate for those half-height PDP-11 cabinets > > The 5.25"-tall blank plate for the H9642 cabs is the H9504-SC, FWIW > (not that it's a commonly-known name - I had to look it up in a > brochure) > > From reading the Blog, I think a BA11 might also be on the list, to > swap in for the BA23 to get it back to its original 1981 look (his > BA23 is fully functional, but newer). > So 1984 or 1985 edition, instead of the 1981 edition? Though I'm personally biased for the BA23 version after managing a MicroVAX II / VAXstation II for 3 years in college, the BA11 faceplate is a little cooler. Warner Warner From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Wed Nov 11 08:11:22 2020 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 09:11:22 -0500 Subject: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset. Message-ID: I picked up a microvax 3100 this past weekend from a office that was shutting down. I was able to start the system up, it boots up to a login prompt for VMS VAX 7.3. I do not have any login info for this machine, is there a procedure i can follow to reset a password to an account? Image of system : https://i.postimg.cc/43bG0nSx/20201111-090018.jpg From nw.johnson at ieee.org Wed Nov 11 08:15:16 2020 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 09:15:16 -0500 Subject: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Try this: http://h30266.www3.hpe.com/odl/vax/opsys/vmsos73/vmsos73/6017/6017pro_009.html#emerg_startup_uaf Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org On 2020-11-11 9:11 a.m., devin davison via cctalk wrote: > I picked up a microvax 3100 this past weekend from a office that was > shutting down. > > I was able to start the system up, it boots up to a login prompt for VMS > VAX 7.3. > > I do not have any login info for this machine, is there a procedure i can > follow to reset a password to an account? > > > > Image of system : > > https://i.postimg.cc/43bG0nSx/20201111-090018.jpg From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Nov 11 08:17:47 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 14:17:47 -0000 Subject: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <30a201d6b835$6e2f9d40$4a8ed7c0$@gmail.com> And as HP are no longer issuing hobbyist licences you might want to export the licence data base Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Nigel Johnson > via cctalk > Sent: 11 November 2020 14:15 > To: devin davison via cctalk > Subject: Re: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset. > > Try this: > > http://h30266.www3.hpe.com/odl/vax/opsys/vmsos73/vmsos73/6017/6017 > pro_009.html#emerg_startup_uaf > > > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the > origin of the open-source concept! > Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org > > > > On 2020-11-11 9:11 a.m., devin davison via cctalk wrote: > > I picked up a microvax 3100 this past weekend from a office that was > > shutting down. > > > > I was able to start the system up, it boots up to a login prompt for > > VMS VAX 7.3. > > > > I do not have any login info for this machine, is there a procedure i > > can follow to reset a password to an account? > > > > > > > > Image of system : > > > > https://i.postimg.cc/43bG0nSx/20201111-090018.jpg From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Nov 11 09:06:43 2020 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 15:06:43 +0000 Subject: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset. In-Reply-To: <30a201d6b835$6e2f9d40$4a8ed7c0$@gmail.com> References: <30a201d6b835$6e2f9d40$4a8ed7c0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6c05edde-6c8a-0786-6931-b070a0c37a95@ntlworld.com> On 11/11/2020 14:17, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk wrote: > And as HP are no longer issuing hobbyist licences you might want to export the licence data base > Indeed. Backing that up is definitely a good idea. Also worth noting that this is a uVAX 3100-96, which is a nice catch. Over 30 VUPs (compared to 2.4 VUPs for the original uVAX 3100). No issues (afaik) with OpenVMS booting off disks greater than 1GB and it will take up to 128MB of memory. Nice and clean too (as is the VT520). Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Wed Nov 11 10:23:28 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 08:23:28 -0800 Subject: Way off topic: posting to the list using default Samsung Android Mail Client In-Reply-To: References: <000601d6b6f2$359c39a0$a0d4ace0$@net> <001601d6b6f8$66d38090$347a81b0$@net> <188001d6b74c$b01c4ad0$1054e070$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00ac01d6b846$fdffa760$f9fef620$@net> > If you want to write/reply to old-style plain-text email from a > fondleslab, then use K9Mail. It is the only mobile client I know of > that can handle bottom-posting, trimming quotes etc. Well K9 is getting a number of recs here so I will take a second look at it. I looked at it initially but then saw it hadn't been updated since 2018. However, looks like there is active working going on and a new version is slated for release sure (BETAs are available for evaluation). -Ali From tsg at bonedaddy.net Wed Nov 11 10:42:09 2020 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 11:42:09 -0500 Subject: Way off topic: posting to the list using default Samsung Android Mail Client In-Reply-To: <00ac01d6b846$fdffa760$f9fef620$@net> References: <000601d6b6f2$359c39a0$a0d4ace0$@net> <001601d6b6f8$66d38090$347a81b0$@net> <188001d6b74c$b01c4ad0$1054e070$@gmail.com> <00ac01d6b846$fdffa760$f9fef620$@net> Message-ID: <75a93b2a-14be-83ef-dd70-f57a1f844996@bonedaddy.net> On 11/11/2020 11:23 AM, Ali via cctalk wrote: >> If you want to write/reply to old-style plain-text email from a >> fondleslab, then use K9Mail. It is the only mobile client I know of >> that can handle bottom-posting, trimming quotes etc. > > Well K9 is getting a number of recs here so I will take a second look at it. I looked at it initially but then saw it hadn't been updated since 2018. However, looks like there is active working going on and a new version is slated for release sure (BETAs are available for evaluation). > > -Ali FWIW, I used to use K9 mail and liked it but it was crashing with a large number of folders and emails in folders. I switched to Blue mail and it's worked well Todd From 821 at 128.ca Wed Nov 11 10:44:16 2020 From: 821 at 128.ca (Kevin Lee) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 16:44:16 +0000 Subject: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset. In-Reply-To: <6c05edde-6c8a-0786-6931-b070a0c37a95@ntlworld.com> References: <30a201d6b835$6e2f9d40$4a8ed7c0$@gmail.com>, <6c05edde-6c8a-0786-6931-b070a0c37a95@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <8edfd580-0676-498f-b23d-fd61ac9a3fb5@email.android.com> Where are you living you can find such nice kit please ? On Nov 11, 2020 4:06 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: On 11/11/2020 14:17, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk wrote: > And as HP are no longer issuing hobbyist licences you might want to export the licence data base > Indeed. Backing that up is definitely a good idea. Also worth noting that this is a uVAX 3100-96, which is a nice catch. Over 30 VUPs (compared to 2.4 VUPs for the original uVAX 3100). No issues (afaik) with OpenVMS booting off disks greater than 1GB and it will take up to 128MB of memory. Nice and clean too (as is the VT520). Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Wed Nov 11 10:49:48 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 08:49:48 -0800 Subject: Way off topic: posting to the list using default Samsung Android Mail Client In-Reply-To: <75a93b2a-14be-83ef-dd70-f57a1f844996@bonedaddy.net> References: <000601d6b6f2$359c39a0$a0d4ace0$@net> <001601d6b6f8$66d38090$347a81b0$@net> <188001d6b74c$b01c4ad0$1054e070$@gmail.com> <00ac01d6b846$fdffa760$f9fef620$@net> <75a93b2a-14be-83ef-dd70-f57a1f844996@bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: <00ad01d6b84a$ab305350$0190f9f0$@net> > > FWIW, I used to use K9 mail and liked it but it was crashing with a > large number of folders and emails in folders. > > I switched to Blue mail and it's worked well Funny you say this; I just finished setting up K9 for my CCtalk email as a test case. Your message was the first one to arrive I hit reply all and the program crashed on me. A second attempt allows me to reply but it is quoting the original mail below my reply even though I have the option set for the quote to be on top. So far not impressed but I am using the latest BETA so I am going to switch to the last stable release from 2018 and see if it works any better. -Ali From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Wed Nov 11 11:02:00 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 09:02:00 -0800 Subject: Way off topic: posting to the list using default Samsung Android Mail Client In-Reply-To: <75a93b2a-14be-83ef-dd70-f57a1f844996@bonedaddy.net> References: <000601d6b6f2$359c39a0$a0d4ace0$@net> <001601d6b6f8$66d38090$347a81b0$@net> <188001d6b74c$b01c4ad0$1054e070$@gmail.com> <00ac01d6b846$fdffa760$f9fef620$@net> <75a93b2a-14be-83ef-dd70-f57a1f844996@bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: <05894ABE-19EE-4FFD-9F20-976EBE3C3950@ibm51xx.net> On November 11, 2020 8:42:09 AM PST, Todd Goodman via cctalk wrote: >On 11/11/2020 11:23 AM, Ali via cctalk wrote: >>> If you want to write/reply to old-style plain-text email from a >>> fondleslab, then use K9Mail. It is the only mobile client I know of >>> that can handle bottom-posting, trimming quotes etc. >> >> Well K9 is getting a number of recs here so I will take a second look >at it. I looked at it initially but then saw it hadn't been updated >since 2018. However, looks like there is active working going on and a >new version is slated for release sure (BETAs are available for >evaluation). >> >> -Ali > >FWIW, I used to use K9 mail and liked it but it was crashing with a >large number of folders and emails in folders. > >I switched to Blue mail and it's worked well > >Todd Ok. So as far as top posting goes it is a bit confusing. When you reply, and are composing your message, the original message is shown below the reply area. However, when the reply is sent the original message is on top of the reply. In any case this is not the behavior I wanted. I would like to see the message quoted on top and then be able to inline edit the quoted text to reply to specific portion of the email. Is there an option to set this? I will try Blue Mail next. Thanks. -Ali -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed Nov 11 11:02:37 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 09:02:37 -0800 Subject: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset. In-Reply-To: <8edfd580-0676-498f-b23d-fd61ac9a3fb5@email.android.com> References: <30a201d6b835$6e2f9d40$4a8ed7c0$@gmail.com> <6c05edde-6c8a-0786-6931-b070a0c37a95@ntlworld.com> <8edfd580-0676-498f-b23d-fd61ac9a3fb5@email.android.com> Message-ID: <91ECAA43-1CC4-4A73-86FE-FCF913B6D5F3@avanthar.com> > On Nov 11, 2020, at 8:44 AM, Kevin Lee via cctalk wrote: > > Where are you living you can find such nice kit please ? No kidding, I?m doing my best not to add to my Classic Computer collection, and I?d add a system like that in a heart-beat (I?ve actually thought seriously about getting one like that). > Indeed. Backing that up is definitely a good idea. I?m reminded of a MicroVAX III that I got 20+ years ago, I booted it, found it was running VAX/VMS 4.4. Powered down, hooked up a TK50 drive to back it up, and the drive wouldn?t come back up (RD53). Zane From lproven at gmail.com Wed Nov 11 12:05:50 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 19:05:50 +0100 Subject: Way off topic: posting to the list using default Samsung Android Mail Client In-Reply-To: <50C17CCF-275B-4EC0-AB5C-79DE9838AFBC@ugr.es> References: <000601d6b6f2$359c39a0$a0d4ace0$@net> <001601d6b6f8$66d38090$347a81b0$@net> <188001d6b74c$b01c4ad0$1054e070$@gmail.com> <50C17CCF-275B-4EC0-AB5C-79DE9838AFBC@ugr.es> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Nov 2020 at 19:27, Angel M Alganza via cctalk wrote: > Most of them, yes. Then there is K-9 mail for Android, > which almost makes me to not miss Mutt, when using the phone. Which is what I proposed in the first reply, complete with links. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From mhs.stein at gmail.com Tue Nov 10 23:25:47 2020 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 00:25:47 -0500 Subject: Soldering DB connectors In-Reply-To: References: <58128b09-64e3-a6de-b346-858bb0d69234.ref@frontier.com> <58128b09-64e3-a6de-b346-858bb0d69234@frontier.com> Message-ID: Same here. Also works for soldering header pins etc.; stick a matching connector on the other side of the board and they stay flush and perpendicular. On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 11:43 PM Ethan Dicks via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 1:47 PM Richard Milward via cctalk > wrote: > > Something that's always worked for me: when soldering a male DB > > connector (DB9, DB25, whatever -- or really any male/pin style > > connector), plug it into a mating female connector first. That will hold > > the pins securely in place and prevent them from sagging in the plastic > > of the body if your soldering iron is too hot or you hold it on too long. > > Yep. Been doing it that way for a lot of years. Good tip! > > -ethan > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 11 00:02:09 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 22:02:09 -0800 Subject: Soldering DB connectors In-Reply-To: References: <58128b09-64e3-a6de-b346-858bb0d69234.ref@frontier.com> <58128b09-64e3-a6de-b346-858bb0d69234@frontier.com> Message-ID: <5f37e9a8-e3eb-4772-7b4f-0cbcd7ab1678@sydex.com> On 11/10/20 9:25 PM, Mike Stein via cctech wrote: > Same here. Also works for soldering header pins etc.; stick a matching > connector on the other side of the board and they stay flush and > perpendicular. Nice tip, but I thought that most folks knew about the matching-connector thing! I guess unwritten knowledge gets lost over the years. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 11 15:02:34 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 13:02:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Soldering DB connectors In-Reply-To: <5f37e9a8-e3eb-4772-7b4f-0cbcd7ab1678@sydex.com> References: <58128b09-64e3-a6de-b346-858bb0d69234.ref@frontier.com> <58128b09-64e3-a6de-b346-858bb0d69234@frontier.com> <5f37e9a8-e3eb-4772-7b4f-0cbcd7ab1678@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Nov 2020, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Nice tip, but I thought that most folks knew about the > matching-connector thing! I guess unwritten knowledge gets lost over > the years. . . . such as turning a bolt backwards a little to find the start of thread? . . . or attaching some plastics with cyano-acrylate AND running a soldering iron over the glued joint . . . using a large vise as a crude substitute for a press, using sockets as drifts for pressing round objects, . . . (all of which I have seen in the last few years as "fresh tips") Half a century ago, a soldering work station included a lot of mating connectors and a padded vise. Has the use of a vise been forgotten, also? SOME learned the hard way that using connecctors of current hardware to hold ones being soldered carried some risk. If you compare "Woodwright's Shop" with "New Yankee Workshop", even significance of grain is being gradually eroded and ignored. Written knowledge doesn't get preserved, either. "The internet is written in sand". "Standard procedure" in library stack culling is to remove any book thata hadn't been checked out in a set period of time. A decade ago, when I was re-assigned as one of the college's librarians, I implemented an added step of those books being on a set of shelves to facilitate looking them over and over-riding as needed. (K&R and Knuth were slated for discard!) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Nov 11 16:19:03 2020 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 22:19:03 +0000 Subject: Soldering DB connectors In-Reply-To: References: <58128b09-64e3-a6de-b346-858bb0d69234.ref@frontier.com> <58128b09-64e3-a6de-b346-858bb0d69234@frontier.com> <5f37e9a8-e3eb-4772-7b4f-0cbcd7ab1678@sydex.com>, Message-ID: I've not had issues just soldering the wires on. I'll admit I do use leaded solder. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2020 1:02 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Soldering DB connectors On Tue, 10 Nov 2020, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Nice tip, but I thought that most folks knew about the > matching-connector thing! I guess unwritten knowledge gets lost over > the years. . . . such as turning a bolt backwards a little to find the start of thread? . . . or attaching some plastics with cyano-acrylate AND running a soldering iron over the glued joint . . . using a large vise as a crude substitute for a press, using sockets as drifts for pressing round objects, . . . (all of which I have seen in the last few years as "fresh tips") Half a century ago, a soldering work station included a lot of mating connectors and a padded vise. Has the use of a vise been forgotten, also? SOME learned the hard way that using connecctors of current hardware to hold ones being soldered carried some risk. If you compare "Woodwright's Shop" with "New Yankee Workshop", even significance of grain is being gradually eroded and ignored. Written knowledge doesn't get preserved, either. "The internet is written in sand". "Standard procedure" in library stack culling is to remove any book thata hadn't been checked out in a set period of time. A decade ago, when I was re-assigned as one of the college's librarians, I implemented an added step of those books being on a set of shelves to facilitate looking them over and over-riding as needed. (K&R and Knuth were slated for discard!) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 11 19:10:53 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2020 17:10:53 -0800 Subject: Soldering DB connectors In-Reply-To: References: <58128b09-64e3-a6de-b346-858bb0d69234.ref@frontier.com> <58128b09-64e3-a6de-b346-858bb0d69234@frontier.com> <5f37e9a8-e3eb-4772-7b4f-0cbcd7ab1678@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 11/11/20 2:19 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > I've not had issues just soldering the wires on. I'll admit I do use leaded solder. > Dwight Also, tinning each wire lead before soldering to the connector helps. Truth be told, I prefer crimp pins. --Chuck From dick.curtis at ymail.com Thu Nov 12 07:12:51 2020 From: dick.curtis at ymail.com (Richard Curtis) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 13:12:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1729047467.2807494.1605186771387@mail.yahoo.com> > I picked up a microvax 3100 this past weekend from a office that was > shutting down. >> I was able to start the system up, it boots up to a login prompt for VMS > VAX 7.3. >> I do not have any login info for this machine, is there a procedure i can > follow to reset a password to an account? I beg to differ with HP's recommendation (in their doc set) for Devin'ssituation.? HP's description is meant for customer sites to have a copyof usernames/passwords to which they can revert for nasty situationssuch as a corrupted SYSUAF.DAT.? *If* this system has the 'alternate'file, it should have the same problem as the original, of unknownpasswords.? What Devin needs is instructions to break into the system. I happen to know how to do that (used to work in OpenVMS Engineering).Is that something that should be discussed here? Thanks,Dick From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 07:56:06 2020 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 08:56:06 -0500 Subject: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset In-Reply-To: <1729047467.2807494.1605186771387@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1729047467.2807494.1605186771387@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have a copy of the process in my stash.... it is findable on the web. I used to wear this funny hat, and used the methoo a few times - even on my cluster at home. It does work. bb On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 8:13 AM Richard Curtis via cctalk wrote: > > > I picked up a microvax 3100 this past weekend from a office that was > > shutting down. > >> I was able to start the system up, it boots up to a login prompt for VMS > > VAX 7.3. > >> I do not have any login info for this machine, is there a procedure i can > > follow to reset a password to an account? > > I beg to differ with HP's recommendation (in their doc set) for Devin'ssituation. HP's description is meant for customer sites to have a copyof usernames/passwords to which they can revert for nasty situationssuch as a corrupted SYSUAF.DAT. *If* this system has the 'alternate'file, it should have the same problem as the original, of unknownpasswords. What Devin needs is instructions to break into the system. > I happen to know how to do that (used to work in OpenVMS Engineering).Is that something that should be discussed here? > Thanks,Dick > From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Nov 12 08:46:54 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 06:46:54 -0800 Subject: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset In-Reply-To: <1729047467.2807494.1605186771387@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1729047467.2807494.1605186771387@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Nov 12, 2020, at 5:12 AM, Richard Curtis via cctalk wrote: >> What Devin needs is instructions to break into the system. > I happen to know how to do that (used to work in OpenVMS Engineering).Is that something that should be discussed here? > Thanks,Dick This has been in the FAQ for a very long time. As it requires physical access to the system, I?m not sure it?s ever been considered that big of a deal. Zane From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Nov 12 08:55:37 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 09:55:37 -0500 Subject: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset In-Reply-To: <1729047467.2807494.1605186771387@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1729047467.2807494.1605186771387@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 11/12/20 8:12 AM, Richard Curtis via cctalk wrote: > > I picked up a microvax 3100 this past weekend from a office that was >> shutting down. >>> I was able to start the system up, it boots up to a login prompt for VMS >> VAX 7.3. >>> I do not have any login info for this machine, is there a procedure i can >> follow to reset a password to an account? > > I beg to differ with HP's recommendation (in their doc set) for Devin'ssituation.? HP's description is meant for customer sites to have a copyof usernames/passwords to which they can revert for nasty situationssuch as a corrupted SYSUAF.DAT.? *If* this system has the 'alternate'file, it should have the same problem as the original, of unknownpasswords.? What Devin needs is instructions to break into the system. > I happen to know how to do that (used to work in OpenVMS Engineering).Is that something that should be discussed here? > Thanks,Dick > > I thought it was in the FAQ. bill From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu Nov 12 09:02:45 2020 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 15:02:45 +0000 Subject: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset In-Reply-To: References: <1729047467.2807494.1605186771387@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <251ca41e-0691-e7a4-06d0-e88550fd5980@ntlworld.com> On 12/11/2020 13:56, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: > I have a copy of the process in my stash.... it is findable on the web. > I used to wear this funny hat, and used the methoo a few times - even > on my cluster at home. > It does work. > bb > > On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 8:13 AM Richard Curtis via cctalk > wrote: >> I beg to differ with HP's recommendation (in their doc set) for Devin'ssituation. HP's description is meant for customer sites to have a copyof usernames/passwords to which they can revert for nasty situationssuch as a corrupted SYSUAF.DAT. *If* this system has the 'alternate'file, it should have the same problem as the original, of unknownpasswords. What Devin needs is instructions to break into the system. >> I happen to know how to do that (used to work in OpenVMS Engineering).Is that something that should be discussed here? >> Thanks,Dick >> "breaking in if you have physical console access" is not at all secret: it used to be in the OpenVMS FAQ and (iirc) in the manuals. It's fine to discuss it anywhere. VMS Engineering would have told you to make sure you ensured that physical console access was only available? to authorised personnel. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Nov 12 09:42:06 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 10:42:06 -0500 Subject: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset In-Reply-To: <251ca41e-0691-e7a4-06d0-e88550fd5980@ntlworld.com> References: <1729047467.2807494.1605186771387@mail.yahoo.com> <251ca41e-0691-e7a4-06d0-e88550fd5980@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 11/12/20 10:02 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > On 12/11/2020 13:56, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: >> I have a copy of the process in my stash.... it is findable on the web. >> I used to wear this funny hat, and used the methoo a few times - even >> on my cluster at home. >> It does work. >> bb >> >> On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 8:13 AM Richard Curtis via cctalk >> wrote: > >>> I beg to differ with HP's recommendation (in their doc set) for >>> Devin'ssituation.? HP's description is meant for customer sites to >>> have a copyof usernames/passwords to which they can revert for nasty >>> situationssuch as a corrupted SYSUAF.DAT.? *If* this system has the >>> 'alternate'file, it should have the same problem as the original, of >>> unknownpasswords.? What Devin needs is instructions to break into the >>> system. >>> I happen to know how to do that (used to work in OpenVMS >>> Engineering).Is that something that should be discussed here? >>> Thanks,Dick >>> > > "breaking in if you have physical console access" is not at all secret: > it used to be in the OpenVMS FAQ and (iirc) in the manuals. It's fine to > discuss it anywhere. VMS Engineering would have told you to make sure > you ensured that physical console access was only available? to > authorised personnel. > > > Antonio > FREEWARE60/VMSFAQ Item 5.5.1 As an interesting aside, I was very surprised at how hard it was to find this on the Web. The notion that everything on the Internet is preserved for posterity is really becoming silly. As another aside, it is rather interesting how many hits for VAX and VMS I got that have nothing to do with what we think of as VAX and VMS. bill From ethan at 757.org Thu Nov 12 10:42:50 2020 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 11:42:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: WTB: Amiga 8375 Agnus IC (NTSC or PAL) or Amiga 600 motherboard Message-ID: Looking for an Amiga 8375 Agnus IC (Amiga 600, Amiga 500 Plus.) NTSC is what I have now but the PAL version might work. Also interested in an Amiga 600 motherboard, can deal with it if bad caps and cap damage. Thanks -- : Ethan O'Toole From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu Nov 12 11:26:06 2020 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 17:26:06 +0000 Subject: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset In-Reply-To: References: <1729047467.2807494.1605186771387@mail.yahoo.com> <251ca41e-0691-e7a4-06d0-e88550fd5980@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 12/11/2020 15:42, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > FREEWARE60/VMSFAQ? Item 5.5.1 > > As an interesting aside, I was very surprised at how hard it was > to find this on the Web.? The notion that everything on the Internet > is preserved for posterity is really becoming silly. > > > Here's Steve Lionel quoting that particular section: https://groups.google.com/g/comp.os.vms/c/LtpI1ItxcbM. The FAQ is here: https://www.hoffmanlabs.com/vmsfaq/vmsfaq.html but I think that comes and goes (although archive.org has a copy). Unsurprisingly, I can't find a copy on the HP web site! Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Nov 12 11:36:24 2020 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 12:36:24 -0500 Subject: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset In-Reply-To: References: <1729047467.2807494.1605186771387@mail.yahoo.com> <251ca41e-0691-e7a4-06d0-e88550fd5980@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <835cfa8d-f72a-f93f-c55e-d5965bb75cea@e-bbes.com> On 2020-11-12 10:42, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > As another aside, it is rather interesting how many hits for VAX and > VMS I got that have nothing to do with what we think of as VAX and VMS. And most of them suck ;-) From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Nov 12 11:45:30 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 09:45:30 -0800 Subject: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset In-Reply-To: References: <1729047467.2807494.1605186771387@mail.yahoo.com> <251ca41e-0691-e7a4-06d0-e88550fd5980@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <1E91CCEB-E34A-4F64-B889-32BF56B917CE@avanthar.com> On Nov 12, 2020, at 7:42 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > FREEWARE60/VMSFAQ Item 5.5.1 > > As an interesting aside, I was very surprised at how hard it was > to find this on the Web. The notion that everything on the Internet > is preserved for posterity is really becoming silly. Up until 3 or so years ago, I took a break from running OpenVMS at home (and only did the tiniest amount of VAX/VMS at work). Between work, kids, and photography, I just didn?t have time (technically I still don?t, but I?m back to running a cluster, and one other VAX at home). When I got my main system back up, I was surprised how hard it is to find anything VMS related on the Internet. I still don?t have a good idea as to what Archives of software are still available (stuff like the site for DECwindows Freeware). Hopefully with the move to x86, we?ll see more people interested in OpenVMS. > As another aside, it is rather interesting how many hits for VAX and > VMS I got that have nothing to do with what we think of as VAX and VMS. Vacuum cleaners and virtual machines? Zane From robert626001 at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 11:52:54 2020 From: robert626001 at gmail.com (Robert) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 11:52:54 -0600 Subject: WTB: Amiga 8375 Agnus IC (NTSC or PAL) or Amiga 600 motherboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ethan I probably have one. More likely to be NTSC than PAL - I'll look. What do they go for, these days? Cheers Robert On Thu, Nov 12, 2020 at 10:43 AM Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: > > > Looking for an Amiga 8375 Agnus IC (Amiga 600, Amiga 500 Plus.) NTSC is > what I have now but the PAL version might work. > > Also interested in an Amiga 600 motherboard, can deal with it if bad caps > and cap damage. > > Thanks > > > -- > : Ethan O'Toole > > From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Nov 12 12:03:10 2020 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 13:03:10 -0500 Subject: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset In-Reply-To: <1E91CCEB-E34A-4F64-B889-32BF56B917CE@avanthar.com> References: <1729047467.2807494.1605186771387@mail.yahoo.com> <251ca41e-0691-e7a4-06d0-e88550fd5980@ntlworld.com> <1E91CCEB-E34A-4F64-B889-32BF56B917CE@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <97ca36a9-35bd-f722-951e-662574523372@e-bbes.com> On 2020-11-12 12:45, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > Hopefully with the move to x86, we?ll see more people interested in OpenVMS. Then, the people will ask for an ARM port, before they touch it ;-) From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Nov 12 12:22:17 2020 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 19:22:17 +0100 Subject: Floppy pressure pad replacement? Message-ID: Does anyone have some good hints on what and how to replace them? I have a CDC 8 inch floppy drive with a missing pressure pad. Tried to put some half a millimeter felt cloth with some double adhesive tape to replace it. But it didn't work very well. If I gently pushed the upper pressure pad arm it started to read at least. But it looks like it is possible to over-do it. I added more padding and then it probably got too thick since it now failed again. I guess that if there is a bit too much pressure the signal might be too high in the input amplifier leading to distortion? What is the best pressure pad material and what are you usually replacing it with? /Mattis From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Nov 12 12:28:12 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 13:28:12 -0500 Subject: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset In-Reply-To: <1E91CCEB-E34A-4F64-B889-32BF56B917CE@avanthar.com> References: <1729047467.2807494.1605186771387@mail.yahoo.com> <251ca41e-0691-e7a4-06d0-e88550fd5980@ntlworld.com> <1E91CCEB-E34A-4F64-B889-32BF56B917CE@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On 11/12/20 12:45 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > On Nov 12, 2020, at 7:42 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > > wrote: >> >> FREEWARE60/VMSFAQ ?Item 5.5.1 >> >> As an interesting aside, I was very surprised at how hard it was >> to find this on the Web. ?The notion that everything on the Internet >> is preserved for posterity is really becoming silly. > > Up until 3 or so years ago, I took a break from running OpenVMS at home > (and only did the tiniest amount of VAX/VMS at work). ?Between work, > kids, and photography, I just didn?t have time (technically I still > don?t, but I?m back to running a cluster, and one other VAX at home). > ?When I got my main system back up, I was surprised how hard it is to > find anything VMS related on the Internet. ?I still don?t have a good > idea as to what Archives of software are still available (stuff like the > site for DECwindows Freeware). > > Hopefully with the move to x86, we?ll see more people interested in OpenVMS. Personally, I doubt that. > >> As another aside, it is rather interesting how many hits for VAX and >> VMS I got that have nothing to do with what we think of as VAX and VMS. > > Vacuum cleaners and virtual machines? And Virtual Messaging Systems and Volunteer Management System and Vendor Management System and Video Management Software, etc. etc. etc. bill From w2hx at w2hx.com Thu Nov 12 12:43:06 2020 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 18:43:06 +0000 Subject: Soldering DB connectors In-Reply-To: References: <58128b09-64e3-a6de-b346-858bb0d69234.ref@frontier.com> <58128b09-64e3-a6de-b346-858bb0d69234@frontier.com> <5f37e9a8-e3eb-4772-7b4f-0cbcd7ab1678@sydex.com> Message-ID: <13ca7b9588ba4888aa2580ef3755cca6@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Crimp pins 100%! -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2020 8:11 PM To: dwight via cctalk Subject: Re: Soldering DB connectors On 11/11/20 2:19 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > I've not had issues just soldering the wires on. I'll admit I do use leaded solder. > Dwight Also, tinning each wire lead before soldering to the connector helps. Truth be told, I prefer crimp pins. --Chuck From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Nov 12 12:39:56 2020 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 18:39:56 +0000 (WET) Subject: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset In-Reply-To: References: <1729047467.2807494.1605186771387@mail.yahoo.com> <251ca41e-0691-e7a4-06d0-e88550fd5980@ntlworld.com> <1E91CCEB-E34A-4F64-B889-32BF56B917CE@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <01RRXN1M3U5M8ZFPZW@beyondthepale.ie> Bill Gunshannon wrote: >On 11/12/20 12:45 PM, Zane Healy wrote: >> On Nov 12, 2020, at 7:42 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk >> > wrote: > > > Hopefully with the move to x86, we?ll see more people interested in OpenVMS. > > Personally, I doubt that. > There's something icky about VMS running on x86. I can't see the prospect being attractive to either the VMS people or the x86 people. >> >>> As another aside, it is rather interesting how many hits for VAX and >>> VMS I got that have nothing to do with what we think of as VAX and VMS. >> >> Vacuum cleaners and virtual machines? > >And Virtual Messaging Systems and Volunteer Management System >and Vendor Management System and Video Management Software, >etc. etc. etc. > How could you forget to mention the Voluntary Milking System? Regards, Peter Coghlan. > >bill From m.zahorik at sbcglobal.net Thu Nov 12 12:50:28 2020 From: m.zahorik at sbcglobal.net (mike) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 12:50:28 -0600 Subject: Floppy pressure pad replacement? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On my Shugart and Siemens 8 inch drives I've used a heavy felt pad that I made using a steel punch. Then super glued it to the pin that snaps into the pickup arm. I've had the snap pin break and have successfully used a small nylon bolt and nut, which has the pad glue to it. I have tried small pieces of Teflon, cloth, plastic, but found that the heavy felt is the easiest to get to work and doesn't seem to harm the media. Mike Zahorik (414) 254-6768 -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mattis Lind via cctalk Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 12:22 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Floppy pressure pad replacement? Does anyone have some good hints on what and how to replace them? I have a CDC 8 inch floppy drive with a missing pressure pad. Tried to put some half a millimeter felt cloth with some double adhesive tape to replace it. But it didn't work very well. If I gently pushed the upper pressure pad arm it started to read at least. But it looks like it is possible to over-do it. I added more padding and then it probably got too thick since it now failed again. I guess that if there is a bit too much pressure the signal might be too high in the input amplifier leading to distortion? What is the best pressure pad material and what are you usually replacing it with? /Mattis From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 12 13:10:52 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 11:10:52 -0800 Subject: Floppy pressure pad replacement? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/12/20 10:50 AM, mike via cctalk wrote: > On my Shugart and Siemens 8 inch drives I've used a heavy felt pad that I > made using a steel punch. Then super glued it to the pin that snaps into the > pickup arm. I've had the snap pin break and have successfully used a small > nylon bolt and nut, which has the pad glue to it. I have tried small pieces > of Teflon, cloth, plastic, but found that the heavy felt is the easiest to > get to work and doesn't seem to harm the media. I've long wondered if replacement billiard/snooker cue tips would make an adequate substitute. They're about 13mm in diameter and 5mm thick. They come in various hardnesses and are inexpensive. --Chuck From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Nov 12 13:27:34 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 11:27:34 -0800 Subject: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset In-Reply-To: <01RRXN1M3U5M8ZFPZW@beyondthepale.ie> References: <1729047467.2807494.1605186771387@mail.yahoo.com> <251ca41e-0691-e7a4-06d0-e88550fd5980@ntlworld.com> <1E91CCEB-E34A-4F64-B889-32BF56B917CE@avanthar.com> <01RRXN1M3U5M8ZFPZW@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Nov 12, 2020, at 10:39 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > There's something icky about VMS running on x86. I can't see the prospect > being attractive to either the VMS people or the x86 people. Do you have any valid data to base that statement on? Quite a few people on the x86 side that I?ve talked to are interested by the prospect, and from what I?ve seen, it?s being well received on the VMS side. I know of one company that is interested in seeing if they should add support in their product for it. Mark Daniel already has WASD up and running on OpenVMS/x86. There have already been 6 customer releases of the x86 version, with a 7th due in about a month, in fact the V9.0-F release looks to be pretty significant (I believe it?s where cluster support will start showing up). The problem with the x86 port is when you have software that only runs on older versions or architectures. This is also a big problem for the Itanium port. For example I keep a system running VAX/VMS 5.5-2 for just this reason, and there is a ton of software that is VAX only, or at best Alpha only. One thing that is interesting about the x86 version is that people will be able to easily get their feet wet with a modern version of the OS. I?m anxiously awaiting VMware and Hobbyist support. Anything that makes it easier to get OpenVMS into the hands of hobbyists and students is a good thing. Zane From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Nov 12 13:45:34 2020 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 19:45:34 +0000 (WET) Subject: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset In-Reply-To: References: <1729047467.2807494.1605186771387@mail.yahoo.com> <251ca41e-0691-e7a4-06d0-e88550fd5980@ntlworld.com> <1E91CCEB-E34A-4F64-B889-32BF56B917CE@avanthar.com> <01RRXN1M3U5M8ZFPZW@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01RRXQUCTMHC8ZFPZW@beyondthepale.ie> Zane Healy wrote: >> On Nov 12, 2020, at 10:39 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: >> >> There's something icky about VMS running on x86. I can't see the prospect >> being attractive to either the VMS people or the x86 people. > > Do you have any valid data to base that statement on? > None whatsoever, only my own observations and opinions. > > Quite a few people on the x86 side that I?ve talked to are interested > by the prospect, and from what I?ve seen, it?s being well received on > the VMS side. I know of one company that is interested in seeing if they > should add support in their product for it. > Over the years, I've seen all sorts of people enthusing about how great they think VMS would be, if only it: - could use commodity SCSI disks - could be orders of magnitude faster - could do networking with this, that or the other - could be more compatible with Unix - could be more compatible with Windows - could have a goofy graphical user interface - could have native support for flavour of the month programming language x - could support comodity ISA/EISA/PCI/USB/whatever flavour of the month I/O - could be run on commodity hardware used for other operating systems - could be used for free by students and hobbyists - etc All of these things and more were delivered in spades or were there from the beginning and yet it never seems to be enough. Some people are just never satisfied, not to mention it never seems to dawn on them just how useful VMS clustering is compared to anything else they have seen. > > Mark Daniel already has WASD up and running on OpenVMS/x86. > I don't want to belittle Mark's achievement here but if this x86 port is going to be in any way worthwhile, it shouldn't be a big deal to build a well behaved, long established VMS application on it. > > There have already been 6 customer releases of the x86 version, with a 7th > due in about a month, in fact the V9.0-F release looks to be pretty > significant > (I believe it?s where cluster support will start showing up). > It doesn't even have cluster support yet??? > > The problem with the x86 port is when you have software that only runs on > older versions or architectures. This is also a big problem for the > Itanium port. For example I keep a system running VAX/VMS 5.5-2 for just > this reason, and there is a ton of software that is VAX only, or at best > Alpha only. > I've had plenty of success doing binary translation of VAX software to Alpha when source was not available. I never had any interest in the Itanium platform so I don't know if the same could be done there. > > One thing that is interesting about the x86 version is that people will be > able to easily get their feet wet with a modern version of the OS. > Why can't people do that now using Alpha emulation running on their platform of choice? > > I?m anxiously awaiting VMware and Hobbyist support. > If VMware was worth it's salt, it would be transparent to whatever is running under it, not needing specific support in whatever is running under it. > > Anything that makes it easier to get OpenVMS into the hands of hobbyists > and students is a good thing. > I've been hearing that for 30 years or more and VMS doesn't seem to have taken over the world yet. Regards, Peter Coghlan > > Zane > From m.zahorik at sbcglobal.net Thu Nov 12 14:58:42 2020 From: m.zahorik at sbcglobal.net (mike) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 14:58:42 -0600 Subject: Floppy pressure pad replacement? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9495210568204BE6A3EED0ECE2CFB3C9@Dumbbunny64> I never thought about those. I been using a diameter of about 3/16" and the cue is around 1/2". I did have some trouble with the pads being too heavy. I looked at a couple suppliers and they do have a variety of hardness, but didn't see any diameter choices. It may be worth a try. Mike Zahorik (414) 254-6768 -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis via cctalk Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2020 01:11 PM To: mike via cctalk Subject: Re: Floppy pressure pad replacement? On 11/12/20 10:50 AM, mike via cctalk wrote: > On my Shugart and Siemens 8 inch drives I've used a heavy felt pad that I > made using a steel punch. Then super glued it to the pin that snaps into the > pickup arm. I've had the snap pin break and have successfully used a small > nylon bolt and nut, which has the pad glue to it. I have tried small pieces > of Teflon, cloth, plastic, but found that the heavy felt is the easiest to > get to work and doesn't seem to harm the media. I've long wondered if replacement billiard/snooker cue tips would make an adequate substitute. They're about 13mm in diameter and 5mm thick. They come in various hardnesses and are inexpensive. --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Nov 14 11:01:40 2020 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2020 11:01:40 -0600 Subject: Seagate Elite "reverse surging" noise Message-ID: <73b9d0f6-ff13-cae5-fd6f-dfc5ac085b67@gmail.com> I picked up a couple of 9GB Seagate Elite SCSI disks the other day (model 410800N, 1995-vintage but 5.25" FH units). Both drives spin up, both pass r/w tests successfully. On one unit, the spindle motor sound is constant. On the other, however, it makes a sound that I can best describe as "reverse surging", where every 5 seconds or thereabouts there's a very brief lowering in tone before the "normal" sound resumes. Anyone familiar with the Elite range know if "some of them just do that", or if it's likely to be some form of fault (which may only get worse)? I've never encountered a disk which does this before; my ear's not detecting any kind of speed increase prior to the decrease (and I don't know if that's what's really going on or not), but that's what my brain wants to think is happening. However, if the speed really was fluctuating to the point that I could hear it then I'm surprised that I'm not getting read/write problems. cheers Jules From mechanic_2 at charter.net Sat Nov 14 11:09:33 2020 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2020 11:09:33 -0600 Subject: Seagate Elite "reverse surging" noise In-Reply-To: <73b9d0f6-ff13-cae5-fd6f-dfc5ac085b67@gmail.com> References: <73b9d0f6-ff13-cae5-fd6f-dfc5ac085b67@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5FB00F4D.80004@charter.net> Jules, That sounds like a spindle motor bearing that is going bad. Yes, it will get worst and the motor will fail to spin up at one point. I wouldn't use this drive for anything that is important. Remember these motors don't have a lot of torque. GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 11/14/2020 11:01 AM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > I picked up a couple of 9GB Seagate Elite SCSI disks the other day > (model 410800N, 1995-vintage but 5.25" FH units). > > Both drives spin up, both pass r/w tests successfully. On one unit, > the spindle motor sound is constant. On the other, however, it makes a > sound that I can best describe as "reverse surging", where every 5 > seconds or thereabouts there's a very brief lowering in tone before > the "normal" sound resumes. > > Anyone familiar with the Elite range know if "some of them just do > that", or if it's likely to be some form of fault (which may only get > worse)? I've never encountered a disk which does this before; my ear's > not detecting any kind of speed increase prior to the decrease (and I > don't know if that's what's really going on or not), but that's what > my brain wants to think is happening. However, if the speed really was > fluctuating to the point that I could hear it then I'm surprised that > I'm not getting read/write problems. > > cheers > > Jules > > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Nov 14 11:37:16 2020 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2020 11:37:16 -0600 Subject: Seagate Elite "reverse surging" noise In-Reply-To: <5FB00F4D.80004@charter.net> References: <73b9d0f6-ff13-cae5-fd6f-dfc5ac085b67@gmail.com> <5FB00F4D.80004@charter.net> Message-ID: On 11/14/20 11:09 AM, Richard Pope wrote: > Jules, > ??? That sounds like a spindle motor bearing that is going bad. Yes, it > will get worst and the motor will fail to spin up at one point. I wouldn't > use this drive for anything that is important. Remember these motors don't > have a lot of torque. Thanks, Rich. I have a feeling that these drives have 14 platters, so the guts probably look quite impressive - perhaps I'll find something "non critical" to run it up until the point that it does fail, then swap the "good" one in and make a clear acrylic case for it so it can live on as a display piece. (my brain still thinks of 1995 as "recent", but I suppose it was 25 years ago) Jules From retrojoe at stateoftheark.ca Fri Nov 13 15:26:43 2020 From: retrojoe at stateoftheark.ca (retrojoe at stateoftheark.ca) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 14:26:43 -0700 Subject: VT-320 interfacing In-Reply-To: <000501d6b723$242dfba0$6c89f2e0$@stateoftheark.ca> References: <000501d6b723$242dfba0$6c89f2e0$@stateoftheark.ca> Message-ID: <002801d6ba03$af63cd70$0e2b6850$@stateoftheark.ca> Rebuilt the DEC-423 to DB-9F cable with a new db9, and it works a treat. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Joe Piche via cctalk Sent: Monday, November 9, 2020 10:34 PM To: 'Mark J. Blair' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: VT-320 interfacing I built that one, thank you for the link. Worked for a bit, then quit. If I move the wires around, I can get it to come and go, so it seems to be the old db9-F I used is garbage. I ordered new ones, just waiting for them to arrive. I'll send an update when I have a new connector. Thanks! -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Mark J. Blair via cctalk Sent: Monday, November 9, 2020 7:28 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: VT-320 interfacing > On Nov 9, 2020, at 5:53 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > >> The VT320 only has the DEC-423 MMJ, no RS-232. > > I /thought/ that Modified Modular Jack was simply a physical thing and completely independent of Recommended Standard 232. DECconnect (aka MMJ) interface uses RS-423 electrical signaling, but it is compatible with RS-232 signaling aside from (I think) some reduced noise immunity over long lines when not using differential receivers. The official DEC H8571 DE9 to MMJ adapter is just a plain pinout adapter which grounds the TX- and RX- signals and doesn't bother with differential signaling. It drives DSR, CTS and CD on the PC-compatible end with DSR from the MMJ interface. At the moment, one of our friends here has one for sale on his Etsy store: https://www.etsy.com/listing/875566987/dec-h8571-de9-to-mmj-terminal-serial Here's a page with details, including the wiring of that H8571 adapter: https://www.lammertbies.nl/comm/cable/dec-mmj#h71j -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X https://www.nf6x.net/ From cube1 at charter.net Fri Nov 13 17:16:21 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 17:16:21 -0600 Subject: 11/24 board settings (Re: Next project: 11/24. Does it need memory?) In-Reply-To: <20201021163648.8DDEA18C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20201021163648.8DDEA18C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <7bc5b7c8-6bdb-048a-1107-d3c4dea7f597@charter.net> On 10/21/2020 11:36 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Jay Jaeger > > >> 2--M7134 KT24 Memory map > > > M7891 UNIBUS Memory (256K, I think, presumably addressed for 0). > > If that's all the memory you have, the KT24 isn't really doing anything > (well, monitoring power; holding boot PROM's; etc). Is your MS11-L configured > to be EUB memory, then? If no KT24 is plugged in, the CPU detects that there > isn't one there, and permanently, statically maps the UNIBUS straight across > to the bottom 256KB of EUB space. (Presumably a low-cost option for the /24.) > > Although the 'straight across' mapping only applies to UNIBUS->EUB cycles, > not EUB->UNIBUS cycles, such as those from the CPU; but the TM says [pg 2-31 > in the 003 version] that if E124-S6 is OFF, "the lower 18 bits of every > address go to the UNIBUS", which implies that when OFF, UNIBUS memory appears > at 0 in the CPU's address space. So it should work as UNIBUS memory, with > E124-S6 OFF; it would be interesting to verify that. The TM also says (pg. > 2-40) "systems with UNIBUS memory ... require changes to be made to the > mapping jumpers [on the KT24]". CPU E124 S6 is indeed ON, so if the TM is right, only the high addresses go to the UNIBUS. Skeptical of that, unless by UNIBUS they mean "UNIBUS other than memory". UNIBUS MAP no "TP" wires, so the lowest UNMAPPED address would be 740 000 if the TM is accurate. The only wire in is W13 (ROM enabled) near as I could tell. Labeled M7891-BB. Presumably 128KB (64KW). The M7891 (MS11-L) is addressed at 0 as near as I can tell - S2 (E61) switches are all ON, and it appears to be set for the default 4K I/O Page from 124K to 128K. My manual EK-11024-TM-001 (not -003). > > > Let me know if you want me to go thru the process of > > .. > > 2) Pull the boards and document > > What kind of box is your -11/24 in, a BA11-A, or BA11-L? > > If the latter, I'd be really grateful for some closeups of the interior, so I > can put mine back together, and do some of these experiments. (Yes, yes, I > know I should have taken pictures before I took it apart; I was just > starting, and was going by how we used to do things, back before there were > digital cameras.) I could probably work it out by staring hard, and thinking > harder, along with the prints, but photos would be a lot easier! :-) > > If it's a BA11-A, I'm still trying to get an image of the special power > adapter used to turn the bus bar of the BA11-A into the 6/15 pin Mate-N-Lok > connectors used by the -11/24 backplane. Yes, it is a BA11-A (10.5" tall). Do you know offhand where that power adapter is? I fear you'd be asking me to disassemble the backside of the power supply, or, worse, take the power supply out, which I am not inclined to make happen. ;) There is a schematic of what I think is the board you are referring to on bitsavers at http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1124/MP01018_Rev_F_11-24_Engineering_Drawings_Mar84.pdf PDF page 161 of 200 (5413815) > > Noel > From doc at vaxen.net Fri Nov 13 17:33:55 2020 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 17:33:55 -0600 Subject: WTB: Amiga 8375 Agnus IC (NTSC or PAL) or Amiga 600 motherboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <73f1d27f-0bb6-a9b4-fcf9-48023bd796da@vaxen.net> On 11/12/20 10:42 AM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: > > Looking for an Amiga 8375 Agnus IC (Amiga 600, Amiga 500 Plus.) NTSC is > what I have now but the PAL version might work. So say we all, man, so say we all. Doc From deramp5113 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 12 17:59:05 2020 From: deramp5113 at yahoo.com (Mike Douglas) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 17:59:05 -0600 Subject: Floppy pressure pad replacement? References: Message-ID: I?ve got some adhesive backed industrial felt that I punch with a leather punch. I?ve replaced many of those pads on 8? and 5.25? drives and the felt pad works well. Shoot me an email and I can send you a few pads if you need. Mike From athornton at gmail.com Fri Nov 13 18:48:54 2020 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2020 17:48:54 -0700 Subject: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3E4D2B7A-9A3B-4470-9E34-93E494804019@gmail.com> I for one was thrilled to see that there will be x86_64 hobbyist licenses for VMS. I have an emulated VAX on a Raspberry Pi (I don?t know if my 11/730 works, but I doubt it?it?s nowhere near a 220V power supply and it?s not been much of a priority, and I have a VAXStation 3100 that doesn?t pass POST even with a freshly-burned ROM) running OpenVMS 7.3, and a real AlphaServer 800 running 8.4. I mean obviously the NEXT thing to do is start bugging VSI for ARM support?given that the OS runs on VAX, Alpha, Itanic, and x86_64, how much really crucial and hard-to-port assembly can be left in it??and given the way datacenters are trending, it might not even be a commercially stupid move. I want to run VMS on my phone (or my next Mac). Doesn?t everyone? Adam From h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl Sat Nov 14 14:15:00 2020 From: h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl (Henk Stegeman) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2020 21:15:00 +0100 Subject: Wanted: listing RIPL ROS IBM3705 or Amdahl4705 Message-ID: Hi all, I searching for a scan or copy of the ROS listing of a IBM 3705 or Amdahl 4705 REMOTE. I all ready have the local single- and multi-channel attached versions, but still missing the remote one. Anyone who can? help me ? Thanks Regards Henk www.ibmsystem3.nl From athornton at gmail.com Sat Nov 14 16:54:04 2020 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2020 15:54:04 -0700 Subject: VMS on x86-64/ARM/RISC-V? - was Re: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset In-Reply-To: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> Message-ID: <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> > On Nov 14, 2020, at 5:20 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > ... > > One thing I'm better at than crystal ball gazing though, is I can give you an idea of how much hard-to-port assembly is left, since I wrote most of the x86 assembly code in it :-) I replied to Camiel off-list, but I just did want to say to the list in general how great it made me feel that my idle BSing got a thoughtful reply from someone who is in a?indeed, in *the*?position to know about it. I mean, I realize I shouldn?t be surprised that VSI has a presence on here, but?I was! This is one of the things I love about this place. Wanted to make sure my gratitude was heard. Adam From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Sat Nov 14 06:20:05 2020 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2020 12:20:05 +0000 Subject: VMS on x86-64/ARM/RISC-V? - was Re: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset Message-ID: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> On 11/14/20, 1:49 AM, "cctech on behalf of Adam Thornton via cctech" wrote: > I mean obviously the NEXT thing to do is start bugging VSI for ARM support?given that the OS runs on VAX, Alpha, Itanic, and x86_64, how much really crucial and hard-to-port assembly can be left in it??and given the way datacenters are trending, it might not even be a commercially stupid move. I want to run VMS on my phone (or my next Mac). Doesn?t everyone? Hi Adam, Possible architectures beyond x86 we're keeping an eye on are ARM and RISC-V, but they'll need to start doing a lot better in the datacenter before it'll be worth our while. So far, ARM in the datacenter hasn't taken off the way many predicted it would. One thing I'm better at than crystal ball gazing though, is I can give you an idea of how much hard-to-port assembly is left, since I wrote most of the x86 assembly code in it :-) With the port to x86, we made a conscious effort to minimize the amount of code written in assembly; so at this point, it's pretty much limited to code where (a) we can't use the stack, or we need to manipulate the stack pointer in a non-standard way; (b) we need to use a special instruction that we don't have a compiler builtin for (these are mostly cases where an instruction is only used in one place); and (c) code that needs to mix calling standards - i.e. the code shims necessary to interact with the UEFI firmeware. Category (a) is obviously the more interesting one, and that includes things like code that is responsible for switching between VMS' four modes (kernel, executive, supervisor, and user mode), and context switching for the schedulers (OS scheduler, kernel process scheduler, and POSIX threads scheduler). The OS scheduler is a good example of our effort to eliminate assembly code. On VAX, Alpha, and Itanium, the scheduler loop and the idle loop (which performs maintenance tasks such as dirty page zeroing) were written in assembly, and re-written with each port. For x86, I rewrote these in C, using small assembly helper routines only in the critical parts where it couldn't be avoided. In total, there are 30 modules that were written in x86-64 assembly. I'd classify 10 of those are trivial, 16 as average, and 4 as complicated and difficult. The complicated and difficult category contains code responsible for dispatching system services, handling interrupts and exceptions, delivering ASTs. As much design and work was involved in those assembly modules though, a whole lot of x86-specific work was done for the MACRO-32 compiler. MACRO-32 originated as the VAX assembler, and while it is a compiler on other architectures, it is still much like an assembler, and specific translations from the VAX instruction set to the target architecture need to be made. The MACRO-32 compiler talks to the LLVM code generator backend at a lower, more instruction-centric level than the compilers for higher languages, and this work is very x86-64 specific. Given that about 1/3 of the OS is written in MACRO-32, we won't get rid of MACRO-32 code in the OS any time soon. (The other 2/3rds are written in BLISS and C) Also, in the C, Bliss, and MACRO-32 code, lots of conditionalizations are made on architecture. Certain things are done differently on Alpha than they are on Itanium, and on x86 we sometimes do things the way we did them on Alpha, sometimes the way we did them on Itanium, and sometimes we need to come up with an x86-specific way. So, the port to x86 has made a future port to ARM or RISC-V easier; particularly by moving to the LLVM code generator backend, and by figuring out how to run a four-mode OS on a two-mode architecture without sacrificing the benefits of running in four modes; but it has by no means made it trivial. Camiel From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Sun Nov 15 02:42:38 2020 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2020 08:42:38 +0000 Subject: VMS on x86-64/ARM/RISC-V? - was Re: Microvax 3100 VMS 7.3 password reset In-Reply-To: <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> Message-ID: <43609108-275A-41C7-B857-117749E1F41F@vmssoftware.com> On 11/14/20, 11:54 PM, "cctech on behalf of Adam Thornton via cctech" wrote: > On Nov 14, 2020, at 5:20 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > ... > > One thing I'm better at than crystal ball gazing though, is I can give you an idea of how much hard-to-port assembly is left, since I wrote most of the x86 assembly code in it :-) I replied to Camiel off-list, but I just did want to say to the list in general how great it made me feel that my idle BSing got a thoughtful reply from someone who is in a?indeed, in *the*?position to know about it. I mean, I realize I shouldn?t be surprised that VSI has a presence on here, but?I was! Well, I?m not on cctech because I?m with VSI, I?m on cctech because I have a large collection of vintage computers (www.vaxbarn.com). In a sense, you could say that my being with VSI is an indirect result of being a computer collector. I had a few Alpha systems, wanted to develop software for them on my laptop, decided to write my own emulator (ES40 Emulator, also forked as AXPbox), got to know people in VMS engineering as a result, and eventually ended up getting hired as one of the principal architects for the x86-64 port. I have a few OpenVMS related presentations up on Youtube, one of them is specifically about the 4-mode problem (https://youtu.be/U8kcfvJ1Iec). I also have several vintage computer related videos on there (Reviving 1980's supercomputers at home - https://youtu.be/0uM09vxT1rg - is a nice introduction into the kind of things I'm really interested in.) Camiel From rp at servium.ch Sun Nov 15 15:51:28 2020 From: rp at servium.ch (Rico Pajarola) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2020 13:51:28 -0800 Subject: Looking for Console MUX cable for HP E45 Message-ID: I recently acquired a HP 9000 E45. Unfortunately, it came without the console MUX panel and cable. I was lucky to find an ADP II (5062-3054) in my "pile of useful stuff", but sadly, the 78pin to DB9 cable is missing. The part number of the cable is 5060-3074 though there might be others that work (5062-3074 is mentioned a few times in the HP forums, but not in the manual so I'm not 100% certain it's the right cable). Does anyone have a spare cable or an ADP or DDP with the cable they would let go for a reasonable price? Or have one and could tell me which 9 out of those 78 pins go where on the DB9 connector? thanks Rico From mattislind at gmail.com Mon Nov 16 01:17:10 2020 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 08:17:10 +0100 Subject: Floppy pressure pad replacement? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Den m?n 16 nov. 2020 kl 05:34 skrev Mike Douglas via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org>: > I?ve got some adhesive backed industrial felt that I punch with a leather > punch. I?ve replaced many of those pads on 8? and 5.25? drives and the felt > pad works well. Shoot me an email and I can send you a few pads if you need. > I found some adhesive pads that are normally used for furniture to protect the floor. They seemed to be about the right thickness. I used a leather punch as you wrote and punched a small circle which I attached. Worked perfectly. Now the drive reads correctly. Perhaps the felt cloth I previously used was simply too thin. > > Mike > /Mattis From mattislind at gmail.com Mon Nov 16 01:34:53 2020 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 08:34:53 +0100 Subject: TU58 dumps. Mostly VAX 11/750 AND 11/730 diags and console tapes. Message-ID: I dumped almost 50 TU58 tapes. They were given to me by an ex DEC FS engineer. Most of them are various 11/750 diagnostics. The tapes or not the official DEC TU58 tapes but home brewed tapes used in FS so there might not be an exact match to existing lists of official tapes. But they might be useful anyhow. I have seen diags for CI 750, DW750, RH750, DT07, Various Ethernet, UDA50, TK50, DZ32, DMF32, DH11 and some more standard 11/750 MIC, DPM tests and instruction tests. Then there were some 11/730 tapes. Console and two diag tapes. I collected everything in a google-drive-folder https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1CkcXVJS9aJDwD4ihdj27QYcgkm7gEdrQ?usp=sharing This folder also contains some older dumps I have done. Both DECtape and DECtape II. All dumps are aggregated into a document trying to give a hint on what the dump contains. Beware that some dumps failed to read correctly and are just partial. But it should hopefully be clear from the file size. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vD8erJM-HitSd4kRXt6_Rzl403HDoprr08EY69uPKd4/edit?usp=sharing /Mattis From poc at pocnet.net Mon Nov 16 04:11:06 2020 From: poc at pocnet.net (Patrik Schindler) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 11:11:06 +0100 Subject: Seagate Elite "reverse surging" noise In-Reply-To: <73b9d0f6-ff13-cae5-fd6f-dfc5ac085b67@gmail.com> References: <73b9d0f6-ff13-cae5-fd6f-dfc5ac085b67@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7C575605-B1AD-4A55-AC7C-5FA5FB51341E@pocnet.net> Hello Jules, Am 14.11.2020 um 18:01 schrieb Jules Richardson via cctalk : > I picked up a couple of 9GB Seagate Elite SCSI disks the other day (model 410800N, 1995-vintage but 5.25" FH units). Nice. I also have three of them from the time when a German Dealer (Alternate) was selling stock to get rid of them in the late 1990?s. Was just 100 Deutschmarks back then. > On the other, however, it makes a sound that I can best describe as "reverse surging", where every 5 seconds or thereabouts there's a very brief lowering in tone before the "normal" sound resumes. Hm. Can?t recall of having heard what you describe. > Anyone familiar with the Elite range know if "some of them just do that", or if it's likely to be some form of fault (which may only get worse)? See comments of other fellow list members. > However, if the speed really was fluctuating to the point that I could hear it then I'm surprised that I'm not getting read/write problems. If Seagate derived the clock for matching read data into bits, the actual speed isn?t critical. Without analyzing the circuit board, I can?t tell for sure. You can easily search for a mobile phone app providing a low-latency frequency reading or better some kind of spectrum analysator using the internal mic to see if there?s an actual fluctuation in frequency or just amplitude (volume) of the drive?s noise. If the differences are faint, it could be hard to tell these two apart. :wq! PoC From w2hx at w2hx.com Mon Nov 16 08:34:35 2020 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 14:34:35 +0000 Subject: neat VGA tester Message-ID: <465225b0b5cf45fcb3f4406c87c822e8@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> For you folks that work on machines with VGA monitors. https://www.mpja.com/11-16-20.asp?r=344017&s=2 I don't own one but it seemed interesting enough to pass on. 73 Eugene W2HX From ethan at 757.org Mon Nov 16 10:47:44 2020 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 11:47:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: WTB: Amiga 8375 Agnus IC (NTSC or PAL) or Amiga 600 motherboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Ethan > I probably have one. More likely to be NTSC than PAL - I'll look. What > do they go for, these days? > Cheers > Robert Hello Robert, Did you find this? Eager to get back to repairing the A600. It has kicked my butt for a long time. A friend gave me the system working and I like it a lot, but then the caps leaked. Cleaned that up but can't get past RAM failure issue that isn't the RAM chips. Thanks! - Ethan -- : Ethan O'Toole From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Nov 16 12:34:39 2020 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 10:34:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Crypto Ancienne: TLS for the Internet of Old Things Message-ID: <202011161834.0AGIYd2T6488266@floodgap.com> If you have an older pre-C99 system, I've backported a TLS 1.2 library to gcc versions as early as 2.5 as long as it has 64-bit ints (long long, usually) and stdarg.h. https://github.com/classilla/cryanc As a test, with a suitably agreeable (or confusable) browser, here are various period browsers visiting modern HTTPS sites through carl, the included demonstration application which can also act as a TLS proxy. The proxy is running on the same machine, no tricks! OmniWeb, at least two flavours of NCSA Mosaic and MacLynx are all demonstrated. https://oldvcr.blogspot.com/2020/11/fun-with-crypto-ancienne-tls-for.html -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Good software lets me sleep. -- Michael W. Lucas --------------------------- From doc at vaxen.net Mon Nov 16 15:56:33 2020 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 15:56:33 -0600 Subject: WTB: Amiga 8375 Agnus IC (NTSC or PAL) or Amiga 600 motherboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0742834f-a1ad-996e-7ded-5074f3b2c22c@vaxen.net> On 11/16/20 10:47 AM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: >> Ethan >> I probably have one. More likely to be NTSC than PAL - I'll look. What >> do they go for, these days? >> Cheers >> Robert > > Hello Robert, > > ? Did you find this? Eager to get back to repairing the A600. It has > kicked my butt for a long time. A friend gave me the system working and > I like it a lot, but then the caps leaked. Cleaned that up but can't get > past RAM failure issue that isn't the RAM chips. If all else fails, there's this: https://github.com/LIV2/Diet-Agnus-A500-plus It's a little interposer that allows using an 8372A Agnus. You're limited to 1MB chipram with it, but it beats 0. Doc From ethan at 757.org Mon Nov 16 16:06:10 2020 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 17:06:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: WTB: Amiga 8375 Agnus IC (NTSC or PAL) or Amiga 600 motherboard In-Reply-To: <0742834f-a1ad-996e-7ded-5074f3b2c22c@vaxen.net> References: <0742834f-a1ad-996e-7ded-5074f3b2c22c@vaxen.net> Message-ID: > If all else fails, there's this: > https://github.com/LIV2/Diet-Agnus-A500-plus > It's a little interposer that allows using an 8372A Agnus. You're limited > to 1MB chipram with it, but it beats 0. > Doc Woah! That is awesome, and I have a 8272A or two sitting around. The A600 I have has 1MB of RAM total as it is and I don't have any burning need to go above that. Problem though. The Amiga 600 8275 is a surface mount device, not through hole. So no way to mount that easily. A vendor in Germany has a bunch of 8275 NTSC chips but they pulled them off the for sale list as they are turning them into some kind of 2MB RAM add on for Amigas. A vendor in UK has boards that run like $40-45 that give you 4MB, not sure if it is the same type of RAM (that chip or fast or whatever) but it definitely gets in the way of sourcing repair parts. - Ethan -- : Ethan O'Toole From mechanic_2 at charter.net Mon Nov 16 21:27:45 2020 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 21:27:45 -0600 Subject: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> Hello all, In the opinions of you experts out there considering reliability being number one on the list with speed be number two on the list what would you folks consider to be the best SATA drives on the market? GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! From ethan at 757.org Mon Nov 16 23:37:23 2020 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 00:37:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> Message-ID: > In the opinions of you experts out there considering reliability being > number one on the list with speed be number two on the list what would you > folks consider to be the best SATA drives on the market? > GOD Bless and Thanks, > rich! HGST. 4TB seem really good. You can also see what backblaze stats currently says. -- : Ethan O'Toole From perkins.jason at gmail.com Mon Nov 16 19:27:06 2020 From: perkins.jason at gmail.com (Jason Perkins) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 18:27:06 -0700 Subject: [vcf-midatlantic] neat VGA tester In-Reply-To: <465225b0b5cf45fcb3f4406c87c822e8@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> References: <465225b0b5cf45fcb3f4406c87c822e8@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Message-ID: Interesting little device! Too bad it doesn?t do color bars in 640x480, only 800x600. On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 7:40 AM W2HX via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic at lists.vcfed.org> wrote: > For you folks that work on machines with VGA monitors. > > https://www.mpja.com/11-16-20.asp?r=344017&s=2 > > I don't own one but it seemed interesting enough to pass on. > > 73 Eugene W2HX > > > > -- Jason Perkins 313 355 0085 Sent from my iPhone From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Nov 17 00:21:21 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 23:21:21 -0700 Subject: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 16, 2020, 10:37 PM Ethan O'Toole via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > In the opinions of you experts out there considering reliability > being > > number one on the list with speed be number two on the list what would > you > > folks consider to be the best SATA drives on the market? > > GOD Bless and Thanks, > > rich! > > HGST. 4TB seem really good. > > You can also see what backblaze stats currently says. > All the HGST Helium drives are quite good. The 6TB and 8TB are the most reliable, with the 10TB and 12TB being just barely less reliable (measurablely less, but only just). All of these models much better than the non helium drives (I think the 4TB is not Helium, but still quite good). They are almost in the same class as SSDs for reliability, at least in well regulated environments. Warner -- > : Ethan O'Toole > > > From abuse at cabal.org.uk Tue Nov 17 03:26:34 2020 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 10:26:34 +0100 Subject: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> Message-ID: <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 12:37:23AM -0500, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: [...] > HGST. 4TB seem really good. I have a half-dozen of those in raidz2 on my workstation and can confirm. HGST disks are good enough that WD bought them, declared them to be so good that they are clearly Enterprise drives, and doubled the price overnight. Which is why I stopped at six. The current wheeze is to "shuck" (remove the internal disk from) externals such as the WD Elements and MyBook. They'll contain the worst of whatever happens to be in stock at WD and the units up to 6TB are therefore to be avoided -- in particular, you will get atrocious DM-SMR disks or other consumer-grade junk -- but 8TB and above will get you something decent. The downside is that they nobble the firmware slightly to have aggressive powerdown and other tweaks to suit the intended use cases of external USB disks. The upside is that the hardware is the same. Well, another downside is that you have to spend a few minutes carefully cracking open the cases without breaking the tabs so that they can be reassembled in case the disks need to be RMAd. We've all got spudgers, right? (You can also shuck Seagates, of course, but then you end up with a terrible Seagate. Lacie and Intenso externals will also contain nasty Seagate disks. Good Seagates exist, but are expensive enough that you might as well get SAS disks and be done with it. I'm still running a (dwindling) fleet of shucked 2TB Seagates from a decade ago when they didn't yet suck.) Five MyBooks bought 18 months ago had debranded He8 disks in there: very nice. The three Elements a few months back have (non-SMR) WD Reds in them, which is OK. Three more are supposedly turning up tomorrow. I'm generally getting 8TB disks for ?120-140 each from either amazon.de or amazon.nl. Sometimes the best prices only appear when they're on backorder and then they randomly turn up a month or two later after I've forgotten I've ordered them, but that's fine for my needs. It beats paying ?300 full retail for the same disk just so I can have it sooner. The shucking landscape does shift over time as shown by me getting "only" Reds in the last batch instead of He8s previously. If you need a disk in several years time you should do a bit of research and double-check before taking this advice lest WD have started doing a DM-SMR line of 8TB disks specially for these enclosures. It also turns out that ?1 ? ?1 ? $1. From mazzinia at tin.it Tue Nov 17 03:34:10 2020 From: mazzinia at tin.it (mazzinia at tin.it) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 10:34:10 +0100 Subject: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <00c901d6bcc4$cdead720$69c08560$@tin.it> Interesting read, What is your opinion of the Seagate exos 7e8 units ? (and does SED make any difference in ensuring a bit more quality of the platters) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Peter Corlett via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 10:27 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: The best hard drives?? On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 12:37:23AM -0500, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: [...] > HGST. 4TB seem really good. I have a half-dozen of those in raidz2 on my workstation and can confirm. HGST disks are good enough that WD bought them, declared them to be so good that they are clearly Enterprise drives, and doubled the price overnight. Which is why I stopped at six. The current wheeze is to "shuck" (remove the internal disk from) externals such as the WD Elements and MyBook. They'll contain the worst of whatever happens to be in stock at WD and the units up to 6TB are therefore to be avoided -- in particular, you will get atrocious DM-SMR disks or other consumer-grade junk -- but 8TB and above will get you something decent. The downside is that they nobble the firmware slightly to have aggressive powerdown and other tweaks to suit the intended use cases of external USB disks. The upside is that the hardware is the same. Well, another downside is that you have to spend a few minutes carefully cracking open the cases without breaking the tabs so that they can be reassembled in case the disks need to be RMAd. We've all got spudgers, right? (You can also shuck Seagates, of course, but then you end up with a terrible Seagate. Lacie and Intenso externals will also contain nasty Seagate disks. Good Seagates exist, but are expensive enough that you might as well get SAS disks and be done with it. I'm still running a (dwindling) fleet of shucked 2TB Seagates from a decade ago when they didn't yet suck.) Five MyBooks bought 18 months ago had debranded He8 disks in there: very nice. The three Elements a few months back have (non-SMR) WD Reds in them, which is OK. Three more are supposedly turning up tomorrow. I'm generally getting 8TB disks for ?120-140 each from either amazon.de or amazon.nl. Sometimes the best prices only appear when they're on backorder and then they randomly turn up a month or two later after I've forgotten I've ordered them, but that's fine for my needs. It beats paying ?300 full retail for the same disk just so I can have it sooner. The shucking landscape does shift over time as shown by me getting "only" Reds in the last batch instead of He8s previously. If you need a disk in several years time you should do a bit of research and double-check before taking this advice lest WD have started doing a DM-SMR line of 8TB disks specially for these enclosures. It also turns out that ?1 ? ?1 ? $1. From lproven at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 07:54:27 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 14:54:27 +0100 Subject: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 at 10:26, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > Five MyBooks bought 18 months ago had debranded He8 disks in there: very nice. > The three Elements a few months back have (non-SMR) WD Reds in them, which is > OK. Three more are supposedly turning up tomorrow. Oh blast, I wish I had known then... > It also turns out that ?1 ? ?1 ? $1. Indeed so. Sadly, most Merkins don't know this and wail about not understanding Weird Forrin Money. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Nov 17 08:36:00 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 09:36:00 -0500 Subject: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On 11/17/20 8:54 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 at 10:26, Peter Corlett via cctalk > wrote: > >> Five MyBooks bought 18 months ago had debranded He8 disks in there: very nice. >> The three Elements a few months back have (non-SMR) WD Reds in them, which is >> OK. Three more are supposedly turning up tomorrow. > > Oh blast, I wish I had known then... > >> It also turns out that ?1 ? ?1 ? $1. Close, but no cigar. I just bought something from Europe 3 days ago. Exchange rate: $ 1 USD = ? 0.8111 EUR > > Indeed so. Sadly, most Merkins don't know this and wail about not > understanding Weird Forrin Money. > Most "Merikens" just let the bank do the conversion when they buy from overseas. bill From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Nov 17 10:12:15 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 09:12:15 -0700 Subject: WTB: AUI cables Message-ID: <9e1b010f-dfc8-2956-89d9-f4952025478b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Hi, Does anyone have any AUI cables for 10Base5 that they would be willing to sell? I'm looking for a couple of them 1-2 meters long. I will eventually* need them for my 10Base5 / Thicknet / Hosepipe network segment. In ham radio net style, chat on list, and conduct business directly / off list. *I still haven't found sufficient Round-to-Its to get off my posterior. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Nov 17 10:14:02 2020 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 08:14:02 -0800 Subject: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> Message-ID: <20201117081402.4ad1b3b2@asrock> On Mon, 16 Nov 2020 21:27:45 -0600 Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: > Hello all, > In the opinions of you experts out there considering reliability > being number one on the list with speed be number two on the list what > would you folks consider to be the best SATA drives on the market? > GOD Bless and Thanks, > rich! I find the drive stats of a major cloud vendor to be very helpful. AFAIK, Backblaze is the only vendor that publishes their results quarterly: https://www.backblaze.com/blog/backblaze-hard-drive-stats-q3-2020/ Cheers! Lyle -- 73 NM6Y Bickley Consulting West https://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 17 10:39:39 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 08:39:39 -0800 Subject: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> Message-ID: On 11/16/20 9:37 PM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: > HGST. 4TB seem really good. or the equivalent Toshiba 4TB Hitachi drives have been REALLY reliable for me. From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Nov 17 11:21:22 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 11:21:22 -0600 Subject: WTB: AUI cables In-Reply-To: <9e1b010f-dfc8-2956-89d9-f4952025478b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <9e1b010f-dfc8-2956-89d9-f4952025478b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <5FB40692.9080304@pico-systems.com> On 11/17/2020 10:12 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Hi, > > Does anyone have any AUI cables for 10Base5 that they > would be willing to sell? > > I'm looking for a couple of them 1-2 meters long. I will > eventually* need them for my 10Base5 / Thicknet / Hosepipe > network segment. > You can actually make these yourself if you can't buy them. There are, I think 5 twisted pairs in a shield. A LONG time ago, I made a few of them when I needed them right now. Jon From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Nov 17 12:10:56 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 11:10:56 -0700 Subject: WTB: AUI cables In-Reply-To: <5FB40692.9080304@pico-systems.com> References: <9e1b010f-dfc8-2956-89d9-f4952025478b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <5FB40692.9080304@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 11/17/20 10:21 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > You can actually make these yourself if you can't buy them. There are, I > think 5 twisted pairs in a shield. > A LONG time ago, I made a few of them when I needed them right now. Interesting. Thank you for the information Jon. I might prefer the pricing of making them myself than some of -- what I think are -- the exhortation prices that I'm seeing on eBay. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Nov 17 12:20:57 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 13:20:57 -0500 Subject: WTB: AUI cables In-Reply-To: References: <9e1b010f-dfc8-2956-89d9-f4952025478b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <5FB40692.9080304@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 11/17/20 1:10 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 11/17/20 10:21 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >> You can actually make these yourself if you can't buy them. There are, >> I think 5 twisted pairs in a shield. >> A LONG time ago, I made a few of them when I needed them right now. > > Interesting. > > Thank you for the information Jon. > > I might prefer the pricing of making them myself than some of -- what I > think are -- the exhortation prices that I'm seeing on eBay. > > > Too bad they weren't this valuable a few years ago. When I was still working my department moved to a new building at the University. We were seeing our space greatly reduced and being a pack rat was no longer a valid option. I threw more than 100 of them out because I couldn't even find anyone to take them from me for nothing. bill From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Nov 17 12:39:43 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 10:39:43 -0800 Subject: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> Message-ID: <008a01d6bd11$058cde20$10a69a60$@net> > > HGST. 4TB seem really good. > > or the equivalent Toshiba > > 4TB Hitachi drives have been REALLY reliable for me. 3rd (or fourth that). I have 20 of them in my NAS. Great drives. Seagate enterprise drives have been good to me as well... but those are from a different era when Seagate made quality HW and had the warranty to match. -Ali From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 17 12:54:15 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 10:54:15 -0800 Subject: WTB: AUI cables In-Reply-To: References: <9e1b010f-dfc8-2956-89d9-f4952025478b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <5FB40692.9080304@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <02d2f49b-7367-0a77-d389-6f20ffd6f900@sydex.com> On 11/17/20 10:20 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > Too bad they weren't this valuable a few years ago.? When I was still > working my department moved to a new building at the University.? We > were seeing our space greatly reduced and being a pack rat was no longer > a valid option.? I threw more than 100 of them out because I couldn't > even find anyone to take them from me for nothing. > > bill There was at least one vendor (Artisoft, I think) that terminated their thicknet coax in 15-pin AUI connectors. Never could figure out the reason for that--it seemed like a very awkward setup. --Chuck From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Nov 17 13:06:01 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 12:06:01 -0700 Subject: WTB: AUI cables In-Reply-To: <02d2f49b-7367-0a77-d389-6f20ffd6f900@sydex.com> References: <9e1b010f-dfc8-2956-89d9-f4952025478b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <5FB40692.9080304@pico-systems.com> <02d2f49b-7367-0a77-d389-6f20ffd6f900@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 11/17/20 11:54 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > There was at least one vendor (Artisoft, I think) that terminated > their thicknet coax in 15-pin AUI connectors. Never could figure > out the reason for that--it seemed like a very awkward setup. The /coax/ was terminated in a 15-pin AUI connector? Or the machine facing connector on the tap was 15-pin AUI? -- Grant. . . . unix || die From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Nov 17 13:46:22 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 14:46:22 -0500 Subject: WTB: AUI cables In-Reply-To: <9e1b010f-dfc8-2956-89d9-f4952025478b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <9e1b010f-dfc8-2956-89d9-f4952025478b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <24C746CC-06A5-4CB0-95ED-BB93D4F653A6@comcast.net> > On Nov 17, 2020, at 11:12 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > Hi, > > Does anyone have any AUI cables for 10Base5 that they would be willing to sell? > > I'm looking for a couple of them 1-2 meters long. I will eventually* need them for my 10Base5 / Thicknet / Hosepipe network segment. > > In ham radio net style, chat on list, and conduct business directly / off list. > > *I still haven't found sufficient Round-to-Its to get off my posterior. I can see them still for sale as current products. One is from Black Box, at an insane price, with actual AUI style (slide lock) connectors. There are several others that are much less expensive, with regular screw lock DA-15 connectors. And of course cables with those connectors are readily available from the usual suspects (I like L-com). The question is whether "plain" cables are electrically adequate. Most likely yes, especially in the short lengths. They might not be twisted pairs and/or shielded per spec, but if you're only going a meter or two, that's unlikely to matter at 10 Mb/s rates. FWIW, there exist adapters from slide latch to screw lock DA-15; I have one I bought from L-com so I could attach a 10BaseT transceiver with slide lock posts to my Pro-380, which has a screw lock DA-15 connector for its Ethernet port. paul From rich.cini at verizon.net Tue Nov 17 13:50:51 2020 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 14:50:51 -0500 Subject: AUI cables In-Reply-To: <24C746CC-06A5-4CB0-95ED-BB93D4F653A6@comcast.net> References: <9e1b010f-dfc8-2956-89d9-f4952025478b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <24C746CC-06A5-4CB0-95ED-BB93D4F653A6@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6B500717-54E9-4C0E-BA52-5883810908C5@verizon.net> I built a bulkhead cable for the DEQNA card using a shielded (but untwisted) joystick extension cable. Ultimately, I found the actual bulkhead cable, but mine worked just fine. Granted, it was only 1-foot long, but untwisted probably wouldn't matter for a short length as Paul mentioned. Rich ?On 11/17/20, 2:46 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Paul Koning via cctalk" wrote: > On Nov 17, 2020, at 11:12 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > Hi, > > Does anyone have any AUI cables for 10Base5 that they would be willing to sell? > > I'm looking for a couple of them 1-2 meters long. I will eventually* need them for my 10Base5 / Thicknet / Hosepipe network segment. > > In ham radio net style, chat on list, and conduct business directly / off list. > > *I still haven't found sufficient Round-to-Its to get off my posterior. I can see them still for sale as current products. One is from Black Box, at an insane price, with actual AUI style (slide lock) connectors. There are several others that are much less expensive, with regular screw lock DA-15 connectors. And of course cables with those connectors are readily available from the usual suspects (I like L-com). The question is whether "plain" cables are electrically adequate. Most likely yes, especially in the short lengths. They might not be twisted pairs and/or shielded per spec, but if you're only going a meter or two, that's unlikely to matter at 10 Mb/s rates. FWIW, there exist adapters from slide latch to screw lock DA-15; I have one I bought from L-com so I could attach a 10BaseT transceiver with slide lock posts to my Pro-380, which has a screw lock DA-15 connector for its Ethernet port. paul From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Nov 17 13:55:06 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 14:55:06 -0500 Subject: WTB: AUI cables In-Reply-To: <24C746CC-06A5-4CB0-95ED-BB93D4F653A6@comcast.net> References: <9e1b010f-dfc8-2956-89d9-f4952025478b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <24C746CC-06A5-4CB0-95ED-BB93D4F653A6@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 11/17/20 2:46 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Nov 17, 2020, at 11:12 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> Does anyone have any AUI cables for 10Base5 that they would be willing to sell? >> >> I'm looking for a couple of them 1-2 meters long. I will eventually* need them for my 10Base5 / Thicknet / Hosepipe network segment. >> >> In ham radio net style, chat on list, and conduct business directly / off list. >> >> *I still haven't found sufficient Round-to-Its to get off my posterior. > > I can see them still for sale as current products. > > One is from Black Box, at an insane price, with actual AUI style (slide lock) connectors. > > There are several others that are much less expensive, with regular screw lock DA-15 connectors. And of course cables with those connectors are readily available from the usual suspects (I like L-com). > > The question is whether "plain" cables are electrically adequate. Most likely yes, especially in the short lengths. They might not be twisted pairs and/or shielded per spec, but if you're only going a meter or two, that's unlikely to matter at 10 Mb/s rates. > > FWIW, there exist adapters from slide latch to screw lock DA-15; I have one I bought from L-com so I could attach a 10BaseT transceiver with slide lock posts to my Pro-380, which has a screw lock DA-15 connector for its Ethernet port. > For those who might be curious, the screw-on type AUI were a requirement for TEMPEST installs back in the day. I used to have a bunch of them, too. TEMPEST PC's would have a short cable going from the network card (frequently Western Digital WD8003E) to the bulkhead connector to make the transition inside the beefed up TEMPEST case. Those were the days!! By the way, I still have a bunch of AUI to 10BaseT transceivers still in their cute little cardboard boxes. Their marketing life was short and people I worked for ended out with more spares than they could ever hope to use. I imagine they are getting rare at this point. bill From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Nov 17 14:01:41 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 15:01:41 -0500 Subject: AUI cables In-Reply-To: <6B500717-54E9-4C0E-BA52-5883810908C5@verizon.net> References: <9e1b010f-dfc8-2956-89d9-f4952025478b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <24C746CC-06A5-4CB0-95ED-BB93D4F653A6@comcast.net> <6B500717-54E9-4C0E-BA52-5883810908C5@verizon.net> Message-ID: There's another possible solution, if you don't trust plain cables: make your own. The spec is quite clear in the Ethernet specification. paul > On Nov 17, 2020, at 2:50 PM, Richard Cini wrote: > > I built a bulkhead cable for the DEQNA card using a shielded (but untwisted) joystick extension cable. Ultimately, I found the actual bulkhead cable, but mine worked just fine. Granted, it was only 1-foot long, but untwisted probably wouldn't matter for a short length as Paul mentioned. > > Rich > > > ?On 11/17/20, 2:46 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Paul Koning via cctalk" wrote: > > > >> On Nov 17, 2020, at 11:12 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> Does anyone have any AUI cables for 10Base5 that they would be willing to sell? >> >> I'm looking for a couple of them 1-2 meters long. I will eventually* need them for my 10Base5 / Thicknet / Hosepipe network segment. >> >> In ham radio net style, chat on list, and conduct business directly / off list. >> >> *I still haven't found sufficient Round-to-Its to get off my posterior. > > I can see them still for sale as current products. > > One is from Black Box, at an insane price, with actual AUI style (slide lock) connectors. > > There are several others that are much less expensive, with regular screw lock DA-15 connectors. And of course cables with those connectors are readily available from the usual suspects (I like L-com). > > The question is whether "plain" cables are electrically adequate. Most likely yes, especially in the short lengths. They might not be twisted pairs and/or shielded per spec, but if you're only going a meter or two, that's unlikely to matter at 10 Mb/s rates. > > FWIW, there exist adapters from slide latch to screw lock DA-15; I have one I bought from L-com so I could attach a 10BaseT transceiver with slide lock posts to my Pro-380, which has a screw lock DA-15 connector for its Ethernet port. > > paul > > > > > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Nov 17 14:05:17 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 15:05:17 -0500 Subject: AUI cables In-Reply-To: <6B500717-54E9-4C0E-BA52-5883810908C5@verizon.net> References: <9e1b010f-dfc8-2956-89d9-f4952025478b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <24C746CC-06A5-4CB0-95ED-BB93D4F653A6@comcast.net> <6B500717-54E9-4C0E-BA52-5883810908C5@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 11/17/20 2:50 PM, Richard Cini via cctalk wrote: > I built a bulkhead cable for the DEQNA card using a shielded (but untwisted) joystick extension cable. Ultimately, I found the actual bulkhead cable, but mine worked just fine. Granted, it was only 1-foot long, but untwisted probably wouldn't matter for a short length as Paul mentioned. > Doesn't need to be very long for a QBUS box. However, the cable for the DEUNA/DELUA Ethernet Bulkhead Kit is over 6 feet long. Still have some of those hanging around here. Wish I could get an other 11/24 to use one in. :-( bill From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 17 14:12:55 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 12:12:55 -0800 Subject: WTB: AUI cables In-Reply-To: References: <9e1b010f-dfc8-2956-89d9-f4952025478b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <5FB40692.9080304@pico-systems.com> <02d2f49b-7367-0a77-d389-6f20ffd6f900@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 11/17/20 11:06 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 11/17/20 11:54 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> There was at least one vendor (Artisoft, I think) that terminated >> their thicknet coax in 15-pin AUI connectors.?? Never could figure out >> the reason for that--it seemed like a very awkward setup. > > The /coax/ was terminated in a 15-pin AUI connector? > > Or the machine facing connector on the tap was 15-pin AUI? > > > No, the AUI was the standard DA-15 to the 10Base5 transceiver; forgive my clumsy response. Yes, I know that's obvious, but there are probably few who remember the agony of thicknet. -- --Chuck From macro at linux-mips.org Tue Nov 17 14:22:14 2020 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 20:22:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: WTB: AUI cables In-Reply-To: <24C746CC-06A5-4CB0-95ED-BB93D4F653A6@comcast.net> References: <9e1b010f-dfc8-2956-89d9-f4952025478b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <24C746CC-06A5-4CB0-95ED-BB93D4F653A6@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Nov 2020, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > One is from Black Box, at an insane price, with actual AUI style (slide > lock) connectors. > > There are several others that are much less expensive, with regular > screw lock DA-15 connectors. And of course cables with those connectors > are readily available from the usual suspects (I like L-com). In maybe 2 minutes of clicking I found these reasonably priced and using standard slidelock assemblies, sold brand new on both sides of the pond: http://www.computercableinc.com/ccinc/products.jsp?sub=AUI+Transceiver&id=2041 http://www.pacificcable.com/Picture_Page.asp?DataName=TRAN-6 https://www.betterbox.co.uk/products/5m-thick-aui-transceiver-drop-cable-m-f-et0022.html > FWIW, there exist adapters from slide latch to screw lock DA-15; I have > one I bought from L-com so I could attach a 10BaseT transceiver with > slide lock posts to my Pro-380, which has a screw lock DA-15 connector > for its Ethernet port. Slidelock assemblies and individual parts of those are sold separately, for all shell sizes actually, in retail quantities by the usual suspects (Mouser, Farnell/Newark, RS, etc.), so with suitably designed connectors (i.e. ones that accept 4/40 UNC jack posts rather than thumb screws only; not all unfortunately) these could be used to replace original screwlock bits. I used these sources on a couple occasions to replace damaged or missing parts. Maciej From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Nov 17 15:03:31 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 16:03:31 -0500 Subject: WTB: AUI cables In-Reply-To: References: <9e1b010f-dfc8-2956-89d9-f4952025478b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <5FB40692.9080304@pico-systems.com> <02d2f49b-7367-0a77-d389-6f20ffd6f900@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 11/17/20 3:12 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 11/17/20 11:06 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> On 11/17/20 11:54 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>> There was at least one vendor (Artisoft, I think) that terminated >>> their thicknet coax in 15-pin AUI connectors.?? Never could figure out >>> the reason for that--it seemed like a very awkward setup. >> >> The /coax/ was terminated in a 15-pin AUI connector? >> >> Or the machine facing connector on the tap was 15-pin AUI? >> >> >> > > No, the AUI was the standard DA-15 to the 10Base5 transceiver; forgive > my clumsy response. > > Yes, I know that's obvious, but there are probably few who remember the > agony of thicknet. > Agony? Considering the alternatives to compare it to at the time not really much agony. bill From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 17 15:54:53 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 13:54:53 -0800 Subject: WTB: AUI cables In-Reply-To: References: <9e1b010f-dfc8-2956-89d9-f4952025478b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <5FB40692.9080304@pico-systems.com> <02d2f49b-7367-0a77-d389-6f20ffd6f900@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 11/17/20 1:03 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 11/17/20 3:12 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> On 11/17/20 11:06 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >>> On 11/17/20 11:54 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>>> There was at least one vendor (Artisoft, I think) that terminated >>>> their thicknet coax in 15-pin AUI connectors.?? Never could figure out >>>> the reason for that--it seemed like a very awkward setup. >>> >>> The /coax/ was terminated in a 15-pin AUI connector? >>> >>> Or the machine facing connector on the tap was 15-pin AUI? >>> >>> >>> >> >> No, the AUI was the standard DA-15 to the 10Base5 transceiver; forgive >> my clumsy response. >> >> Yes, I know that's obvious, but there are probably few who remember the >> agony of thicknet. >> > > Agony?? Considering the alternatives to compare it to at the time > not really much agony. > > bill -- --Chuck Sent from my digital computer From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 17 15:57:28 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 13:57:28 -0800 Subject: WTB: AUI cables In-Reply-To: References: <9e1b010f-dfc8-2956-89d9-f4952025478b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <5FB40692.9080304@pico-systems.com> <02d2f49b-7367-0a77-d389-6f20ffd6f900@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 11/17/20 1:03 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Agony?? Considering the alternatives to compare it to at the time > not really much agony. (Sorry for the blank response, but my email client has moved the buttons!) At any rate, I'll take 10Base2 over 10Base5 any day. Lots of BNC fittings I find to be preferable to "vampire taps" and tape measures. Just remember the terminators. :) --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Nov 17 16:05:39 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 17:05:39 -0500 Subject: WTB: AUI cables In-Reply-To: References: <9e1b010f-dfc8-2956-89d9-f4952025478b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <5FB40692.9080304@pico-systems.com> <02d2f49b-7367-0a77-d389-6f20ffd6f900@sydex.com> Message-ID: <6812B8C8-E33F-4592-B0F1-B4EF73BBEAB3@comcast.net> > On Nov 17, 2020, at 4:57 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 11/17/20 1:03 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > >> Agony? Considering the alternatives to compare it to at the time >> not really much agony. > > (Sorry for the blank response, but my email client has moved the buttons!) > > At any rate, I'll take 10Base2 over 10Base5 any day. Lots of BNC > fittings I find to be preferable to "vampire taps" and tape measures. > Just remember the terminators. That's true for either kind. Also remember to put the terminators only at the ends. I've seen magazine articles showing a terminator in the middle (on a T connector)! BTW, you can mix the two, just connect the sections with a BNC to N barrel. Use the 10Base2 limits in that case. The measuring stuff only really matters for large installations. If you're using thickwire with 20 stations or 100 meters or small configs like that, don't worry about it. paul From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Nov 17 17:17:42 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 16:17:42 -0700 Subject: WTB: AUI cables In-Reply-To: References: <9e1b010f-dfc8-2956-89d9-f4952025478b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <5FB40692.9080304@pico-systems.com> <02d2f49b-7367-0a77-d389-6f20ffd6f900@sydex.com> Message-ID: <9b8748bb-97be-517e-269a-61e59c5bf56a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 11/17/20 1:12 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > No, the AUI was the standard DA-15 to the 10Base5 transceiver; > forgive my clumsy response. Thank you for clarifying. I considered it more likely that you had typed correctly and there was yet another thing that I was ignorant about. ;-) > Yes, I know that's obvious, but there are probably few who remember > the agony of thicknet. And here I am actively seeking it out. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Nov 17 17:18:40 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 16:18:40 -0700 Subject: WTB: AUI cables In-Reply-To: References: <9e1b010f-dfc8-2956-89d9-f4952025478b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <5FB40692.9080304@pico-systems.com> <02d2f49b-7367-0a77-d389-6f20ffd6f900@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 11/17/20 2:03 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Agony? Considering the alternatives to compare it to at the time > not really much agony. Would you please enlighten me (us?) and regale some tales of agony? -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Nov 17 17:20:28 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 16:20:28 -0700 Subject: WTB: AUI cables In-Reply-To: References: <9e1b010f-dfc8-2956-89d9-f4952025478b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <5FB40692.9080304@pico-systems.com> <02d2f49b-7367-0a77-d389-6f20ffd6f900@sydex.com> Message-ID: <548f3507-b828-40e9-1082-51e8a7bc21c5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 11/17/20 2:57 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > (Sorry for the blank response, but my email client has moved the > buttons!) If an extra blank reply is the worst that happens today, then I think it's a good day. > At any rate, I'll take 10Base2 over 10Base5 any day. Lots of BNC > fittings I find to be preferable to "vampire taps" and tape measures. > Just remember the terminators. Did vampire taps vs full terminations with N (?) connectors on taps make any difference? -- Grant. . . . unix || die From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Nov 17 17:22:33 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 18:22:33 -0500 Subject: WTB: AUI cables In-Reply-To: References: <9e1b010f-dfc8-2956-89d9-f4952025478b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <5FB40692.9080304@pico-systems.com> <02d2f49b-7367-0a77-d389-6f20ffd6f900@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 11/17/20 4:57 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 11/17/20 1:03 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > >> Agony?? Considering the alternatives to compare it to at the time >> not really much agony. > > (Sorry for the blank response, but my email client has moved the buttons!) > > At any rate, I'll take 10Base2 over 10Base5 any day. Lots of BNC > fittings Which was nice until one of your users wanted to move their desk or computer and put an extension between the T-connector and the computer. > I find to be preferable to "vampire taps" and tape measures. > Just remember the terminators. If you were using yellow ethernet cable and not generic RG-8 no tape measure. The tap locations were marked on the jacket. And vampire taps were no big deal. I still have my drill. Biggest problem was keeping the building electricians from grounding the terminators at both ends. bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Nov 17 17:27:47 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 18:27:47 -0500 Subject: WTB: AUI cables In-Reply-To: <6812B8C8-E33F-4592-B0F1-B4EF73BBEAB3@comcast.net> References: <9e1b010f-dfc8-2956-89d9-f4952025478b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <5FB40692.9080304@pico-systems.com> <02d2f49b-7367-0a77-d389-6f20ffd6f900@sydex.com> <6812B8C8-E33F-4592-B0F1-B4EF73BBEAB3@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 11/17/20 5:05 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Nov 17, 2020, at 4:57 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 11/17/20 1:03 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >>> Agony? Considering the alternatives to compare it to at the time >>> not really much agony. >> >> (Sorry for the blank response, but my email client has moved the buttons!) >> >> At any rate, I'll take 10Base2 over 10Base5 any day. Lots of BNC >> fittings I find to be preferable to "vampire taps" and tape measures. >> Just remember the terminators. > > That's true for either kind. Also remember to put the terminators only at the ends. I've seen magazine articles showing a terminator in the middle (on a T connector)! > > BTW, you can mix the two, just connect the sections with a BNC to N barrel. Use the 10Base2 limits in that case. > > The measuring stuff only really matters for large installations. If you're using thickwire with 20 stations or 100 meters or small configs like that, don't worry about it. > As long as you can live with the collisions. Network would still function but efficiency would be lower as number of collisions went up. And they would. The proper way to mix 10Base5 and 10Base2 was with a 10Base2 hub connected to the yellow cable with a transceiver. As for transceiver placement, those black marks were there for a reason. :-) bill From jpstewart at personalprojects.net Tue Nov 17 17:45:02 2020 From: jpstewart at personalprojects.net (John-Paul Stewart) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 18:45:02 -0500 Subject: WTB: AUI cables In-Reply-To: References: <9e1b010f-dfc8-2956-89d9-f4952025478b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <24C746CC-06A5-4CB0-95ED-BB93D4F653A6@comcast.net> Message-ID: <810d27b6-8b02-0963-7477-9f11a21e400a@personalprojects.net> On 2020-11-17 3:22 p.m., Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk wrote: > > In maybe 2 minutes of clicking I found these reasonably priced and using > standard slidelock assemblies, sold brand new on both sides of the pond: > > http://www.computercableinc.com/ccinc/products.jsp?sub=AUI+Transceiver&id=2041 > http://www.pacificcable.com/Picture_Page.asp?DataName=TRAN-6 Those seem rather high priced to me. These are not true AUI cables, but they are what I use for about 1/4 the price of the ones mentioned above: https://www.cablesalescanada.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=480_494_495 (That's a Canadian seller since that's where I am, but they'll ship to the US if that's where the original poster is.) From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Nov 17 18:07:54 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 17:07:54 -0700 Subject: WTB: AUI cables In-Reply-To: <6812B8C8-E33F-4592-B0F1-B4EF73BBEAB3@comcast.net> References: <9e1b010f-dfc8-2956-89d9-f4952025478b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <5FB40692.9080304@pico-systems.com> <02d2f49b-7367-0a77-d389-6f20ffd6f900@sydex.com> <6812B8C8-E33F-4592-B0F1-B4EF73BBEAB3@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7676d7df-ab68-866c-e956-db5e2b37820f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 11/17/20 3:05 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > That's true for either kind. Also remember to put the terminators > only at the ends. I've seen magazine articles showing a terminator > in the middle (on a T connector)! How?! The T is inherently three points; up-stream (cable), NIC, down-stream cable). Did they connect multiple Ts together? Did they use a BNC barrel on the unused NIC connection and add a terminator? -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Nov 17 18:10:03 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 17:10:03 -0700 Subject: WTB: AUI cables In-Reply-To: References: <9e1b010f-dfc8-2956-89d9-f4952025478b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <5FB40692.9080304@pico-systems.com> <02d2f49b-7367-0a77-d389-6f20ffd6f900@sydex.com> Message-ID: <0f194cc7-f2e5-e10f-cf04-72b396fbbf40@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 11/17/20 4:22 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Biggest problem was keeping the building electricians from grounding > the terminators at both ends. Didn't the building electricians know that they should not ground both ends of ground wire, lest they introduce sneak currents? Or am I giving them more credit than they deserve? -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Nov 17 18:13:43 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 17:13:43 -0700 Subject: WTB: AUI cables In-Reply-To: References: <9e1b010f-dfc8-2956-89d9-f4952025478b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <24C746CC-06A5-4CB0-95ED-BB93D4F653A6@comcast.net> Message-ID: <8e5acd70-f3a6-37ba-eeab-7a7399c17cf1@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 11/17/20 12:55 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > For those who might be curious, the screw-on type AUI were a > requirement for TEMPEST installs back in the day. I used to have a > bunch of them, too. TEMPEST PC's would have a short cable going from > the network card (frequently Western Digital WD8003E) to the bulkhead > connector to make the transition inside the beefed up TEMPEST case. > Those were the days!! Intriguing. > By the way, I still have a bunch of AUI to 10BaseT transceivers still > in their cute little cardboard boxes. Their marketing life was short > and people I worked for ended out with more spares than they could > ever hope to use. I imagine they are getting rare at this point. I still see AUI to 10BaseT or even 10Base2 transceivers quarterly, if not monthly in a few different haunts. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Nov 17 18:22:06 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 17:22:06 -0700 Subject: WTB: AUI cables In-Reply-To: <810d27b6-8b02-0963-7477-9f11a21e400a@personalprojects.net> References: <9e1b010f-dfc8-2956-89d9-f4952025478b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <24C746CC-06A5-4CB0-95ED-BB93D4F653A6@comcast.net> <810d27b6-8b02-0963-7477-9f11a21e400a@personalprojects.net> Message-ID: On 11/17/20 4:45 PM, John-Paul Stewart via cctalk wrote: > Those seem rather high priced to me. Ya. They are actually (just barely) higher than I can find them on eBay ($20). Maybe I'm being a cheapskate. I like the $5 price a lot better. I think that's much closer to what I paid at Peoria Super Fest years ago for them. They were falling off the back of multiple trucks. > These are not true AUI cables, but they are what I use for about 1/4 > the price of the ones mentioned above: > > https://www.cablesalescanada.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=480_494_495 > > (That's a Canadian seller since that's where I am, but they'll ship > to the US if that's where the original poster is.) That's more to my (cheapskate) liking. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Nov 17 18:37:41 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 19:37:41 -0500 Subject: WTB: AUI cables In-Reply-To: <7676d7df-ab68-866c-e956-db5e2b37820f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <9e1b010f-dfc8-2956-89d9-f4952025478b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <5FB40692.9080304@pico-systems.com> <02d2f49b-7367-0a77-d389-6f20ffd6f900@sydex.com> <6812B8C8-E33F-4592-B0F1-B4EF73BBEAB3@comcast.net> <7676d7df-ab68-866c-e956-db5e2b37820f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: > On Nov 17, 2020, at 7:07 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 11/17/20 3:05 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> That's true for either kind. Also remember to put the terminators only at the ends. I've seen magazine articles showing a terminator in the middle (on a T connector)! > > How?! > > The T is inherently three points; up-stream (cable), NIC, down-stream cable). > > Did they connect multiple Ts together? > > Did they use a BNC barrel on the unused NIC connection and add a terminator? There was an article in the magazine RSTS Professional -- unfortunately I don't have it any longer. It mentioned that you can connect thick to thin coax. That is true; both are 50 ohm cable so you can use them interchangeably, provided you derate the network to the lower of the two specs. BTW, that also applies to my comment on transceiver placement. 10Base2 has no placement rules, which means that a network no larger than 10Base2 limits can be built on thickwire with placement ignored just as well. What they got wrong is that they showed the splice being made by a T connector that had a terminator on the third port. So a terminator -- which by definition goes at the terminus, the end, of the cable, here was put in the middle. That will mess up the signal integrity very badly. You're right, any transceiver connection is a T; or as transmission line people would say, a stub. Stubs are fine if they are electrically short, i.e., a small fraction of a wavelength in length, and the end of the stub is high impedance. Transceivers are high impedance circuits so this works. A vampire tap is one way to build a short stub. The T connector attached directly to the 10Base2 transceiver on the bulkhead is another. A thickwire transceiver connected with an N/N/N T connector would also work; I haven't see any of those used in practice. The key thing, as others mentioned, is not to lengthen the stub. You don't put a length of coax between bulkhead and the 10Base2 T connector if you want the network to operate. paul From jpstewart at personalprojects.net Tue Nov 17 18:45:37 2020 From: jpstewart at personalprojects.net (John-Paul Stewart) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 19:45:37 -0500 Subject: Crypto Ancienne: TLS for the Internet of Old Things In-Reply-To: <202011161834.0AGIYd2T6488266@floodgap.com> References: <202011161834.0AGIYd2T6488266@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <258baf66-c161-c1ae-346e-22e99603ee7f@personalprojects.net> On 2020-11-16 1:34 p.m., Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: > If you have an older pre-C99 system, I've backported a TLS 1.2 library to gcc > versions as early as 2.5 as long as it has 64-bit ints (long long, usually) > and stdarg.h. > > https://github.com/classilla/cryanc That looks interesting. I'm sure I'll end up playing with that at some point. I doubt that I personally have any practical use for such a thing, but that won't stop me from looking into it! I've got a few systems that I can try it out on that aren't (yet) on the "supported" list. Thanks for sharing! From lproven at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 19:03:32 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 02:03:32 +0100 Subject: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 at 15:36, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > Most "Merikens" just let the bank do the conversion when they buy > from overseas. Argh! I was not posting to the list that I thought I was. I apologise for using that nickname. :-( -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From macro at linux-mips.org Tue Nov 17 19:05:53 2020 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 01:05:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: WTB: AUI cables In-Reply-To: References: <9e1b010f-dfc8-2956-89d9-f4952025478b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <24C746CC-06A5-4CB0-95ED-BB93D4F653A6@comcast.net> <810d27b6-8b02-0963-7477-9f11a21e400a@personalprojects.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Nov 2020, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > Those seem rather high priced to me. > > Ya. They are actually (just barely) higher than I can find them on eBay > ($20). > > Maybe I'm being a cheapskate. I like the $5 price a lot better. I think > that's much closer to what I paid at Peoria Super Fest years ago for them. > They were falling off the back of multiple trucks. Well, you can't expect consumer prices for pro's stuff and then uncommon, niche one, can you? Even if it once used to be consumer's and common. This is hardly more than I recently paid per piece, not including postage across the pond, for a bunch of suitably long three-way IEC 60320 C13/C14 leads for use with a remotely controlled PDU. Which is considerably less advanced a piece of technology than an AUI cable. And things do get yet worse if space constraints such as with some DEC gear mandate that you use a right-angle AUI cable. Then you get this: https://www.insight.com/en_US/shop/product/LCN216-0003/BLACK%20BOX/LCN216-0003/Black-Box-Ethernet-Transceiver-Cable-IEEE-8023--Ethernet-AUI-cable--3-ft--gray/ Mind that this is whole 3ft! And then if you're lucky enough, you get just about anything for free. Maciej From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Nov 17 19:11:39 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 20:11:39 -0500 Subject: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On 11/17/20 8:03 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 at 15:36, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: >> >> Most "Merikens" just let the bank do the conversion when they buy >> from overseas. > > Argh! I was not posting to the list that I thought I was. I apologise > for using that nickname. :-( > Don't feel bad us "Merikens" tend to be thick skinned. Time for one of my favorites. Question: How do you describe someone who speaks three languages? Answer: Trilingual Question: How do you describe someone who speaks two languages? Answer: Bilingual Question: How do you describe someone who speaks one language? Answer: American bill From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 17 19:53:01 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 17:53:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: >>> Most "Merikens" just let the bank do the conversion when they buy >>> from overseas. > On 11/17/20 8:03 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> Argh! I was not posting to the list that I thought I was. I apologise >> for using that nickname. :-( On Tue, 17 Nov 2020, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Don't feel bad us "Merikens" tend to be thick skinned. > > Time for one of my favorites. > > Question: How do you describe someone who speaks three languages? > Answer: Trilingual > > Question: How do you describe someone who speaks two languages? > Answer: Bilingual > > Question: How do you describe someone who speaks one language? > Answer: American Most of us "merkens" haven't truly mastered one language. From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Nov 17 20:00:21 2020 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 18:00:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Crypto Ancienne: TLS for the Internet of Old Things In-Reply-To: <258baf66-c161-c1ae-346e-22e99603ee7f@personalprojects.net> from John-Paul Stewart via cctalk at "Nov 17, 20 07:45:37 pm" Message-ID: <202011180200.0AI20LSS12386482@floodgap.com> > > If you have an older pre-C99 system, I've backported a TLS 1.2 library to > > gcc versions as early as 2.5 as long as it has 64-bit ints (long long, > > usually) and stdarg.h. > > > > https://github.com/classilla/cryanc > > That looks interesting. I'm sure I'll end up playing with that at some > point. I doubt that I personally have any practical use for such a > thing, but that won't stop me from looking into it! I've got a few > systems that I can try it out on that aren't (yet) on the "supported" list. > Thanks for sharing! Currently my first priorities for porting are IRIX (it already compiles, it just needs work) and then SunOS 4, and then we'll see. Maybe HP/UX next. I have an '020 here I'd like to see how well it runs on. I'd also like to roll it into some apps like Chimera and Mosaic-CK. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TRUE HEADLINE: Teacher Strikes Idle Kids ----------------------------------- From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Nov 17 20:09:39 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 21:09:39 -0500 Subject: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On 11/17/20 8:53 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>>> Most "Merikens" just let the bank do the conversion when they buy >>>> from overseas. > >> On 11/17/20 8:03 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >>> Argh! I was not posting to the list that I thought I was. I apologise >>> for using that nickname. :-( > > On Tue, 17 Nov 2020, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> Don't feel bad us "Merikens" tend to be thick skinned. >> >> Time for one of my favorites. >> >> Question:? How do you describe someone who speaks three languages? >> Answer:??? Trilingual >> >> Question:? How do you describe someone who speaks two languages? >> Answer:??? Bilingual >> >> Question:? How do you describe someone who speaks one language? >> Answer:??? American > > Most of us "merkens" haven't truly mastered one language. Well, we did settle on one of the most ambiguous and confusing languages in the world!! bill From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 17 20:49:15 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 18:49:15 -0800 Subject: WTB: AUI cables In-Reply-To: References: <9e1b010f-dfc8-2956-89d9-f4952025478b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <5FB40692.9080304@pico-systems.com> <02d2f49b-7367-0a77-d389-6f20ffd6f900@sydex.com> <6812B8C8-E33F-4592-B0F1-B4EF73BBEAB3@comcast.net> <7676d7df-ab68-866c-e956-db5e2b37820f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: When I expanded my network between floors in my own home, I dropped the 10Base$ stuff, moved to 10Base2 because I could drill a small hole with long 1/4" drill bit, just above the toe molding and snake the RG58 cable through it. RG8 would have required a much larger hole. Later, I used the RG8 to pull the Cat5 cable. I still have a pile of RG8 with BNC fittings; have never been able to find a taker. Interestingly, some years after the move to Cat5, I had some work done on the outside of the house. Not letting an opportunity slip by, I drilled holes between the top and bottom plates of the floor and inserted a piece of thick steel wire inside that extended into both the first and second story wall pockets. The idea was that I could *some day* locate the steel wire, cut a hole for a receptacle box in the wall, and use the steel wire to pull cable to the floor below. Never got around to it. Someday, someone remodeling this place is going to find that wire and wonder what the heck it was all about. FWIW, I'm still using a couple of Farallon 100BaseT network hubs on the cable run. Never have found a good reason to upgrade them--they're housed in metal cases, after all. Paid $5 each NOS back in the day--someone had dumped them at the local E-waste recycler. More and more of my gear uses WiFi now. For those bits that aren't Wifi-equipped, I use cheap TPLink Wifi repeaters to provide Cat5 connection to the WiFi. --Chuck From mark.tapley at swri.org Tue Nov 17 21:21:18 2020 From: mark.tapley at swri.org (Tapley, Mark B.) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 03:21:18 +0000 Subject: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <1FE42F34-9C5C-4D6F-95E3-248A4086414B@swri.edu> On Nov 17, 2020, at 7:03 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk > wrote: Argh! I was not posting to the list that I thought I was. I apologise for using that nickname. :-( Liam, ?. does it actually make it better that you were posting to the wrong list? I say this without rancor because generally you are right about our financial (and other) self-centeredness, I have to admit it. Heck, I?m from Texas, and *we* do it to the rest of the United States - to say nothing of furriners. But one of ?murikas biggest problems right now may stem at least partly from people referring, within their "in-crowd", to the "out-crowd" in a disparaging manner. Our political system is veering rapidly from a functional democracy (1) to a non-functional democracy (2) because of this. I strongly suspect almost nobody in either leading political party today would give me anything more than a blank look if I quoted to them the last lines of our Pledge of Allegiance: ?one nation ?. **indivisible**, with liberty and justice **for all**.? (double emphasis added). Even within our own borders, we can find plenty of reasons to disagree *without* having resort to stereotyping nicknames. And yet, every other word in a political discussion these days is emotionally loaded. Not that it?s a huge deal, but, just for a while, it might be worth your consideration to think whether a nickname you don?t want to use in one group, for fear of offending, is a great idea to use in a different group. Echo chambers and internet bubbles being what they are, setting a trend of tolerance and respect for outsiders could do a lot of good these days. All, sorry for the decidedly off-topic post, (figurative) freshly healing eyeball scars from watching the debates leading up to our recent election. ??? (1) The old-fashioned New England Town Hall meeting. Everyone gets their turn to speak and is listened to, arguments happen but so does compromise, and by the end of the meeting a vote is hardly necessary because the best compromise solution has become obvious to all. (2) per Ambrose Bierce in ?The Devil?s Dictionary?: Three wolves and a Sheep sitting down to decide what?s for dinner. From lproven at gmail.com Wed Nov 18 06:02:39 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 13:02:39 +0100 Subject: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 at 02:53, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Most of us "merkens" haven't truly mastered one language. I was very surprised to discover a couple of years ago that many in the USA pronounce "squirrel" as "skwerl". My surprise was subsequently pushed to its limits when I discovered that the 'L' in 'solder' has become silent and it is now commonly pronounced "sodder". But yesterday, I discovered that the 'L' in words such as "palm", "balm" and "psalm" is _no longer_ silent and is actively pronounced in some regions of the US, and mere surprise was no longer adequate and I was forced to resort to astonishment. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Wed Nov 18 06:03:12 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 13:03:12 +0100 Subject: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: <1FE42F34-9C5C-4D6F-95E3-248A4086414B@swri.edu> References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> <1FE42F34-9C5C-4D6F-95E3-248A4086414B@swri.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 at 04:21, Tapley, Mark B. via cctalk wrote: > > On Nov 17, 2020, at 7:03 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk > wrote: > > Argh! I was not posting to the list that I thought I was. I apologise > for using that nickname. :-( > > Liam, ?. does it actually make it better that you were posting to the wrong list? No, it doesn't. :-( -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From db at db.net Wed Nov 18 10:15:05 2020 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 11:15:05 -0500 Subject: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: References: <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <20201118161505.GA68963@night.db.net> On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 01:02:39PM +0100, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 at 02:53, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Most of us "merkens" haven't truly mastered one language. ... > "balm" and "psalm" is _no longer_ silent and is actively pronounced in > some regions of the US, and mere surprise was no longer adequate and I > was forced to resort to astonishment. My expat FIL was from Lancs. Good part is I learned how to make a decent pot of tea. The bad is, I couldn't understand him half the time. I also couldn't understand half the time the Newfie working for me years ago. If you pronounce the 't' in Ottawa you aren't from here. And let's not even mention that Rhotic R that is missing in Burma in some dialects. Accents are weird and amusing at times. :-) -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From lproven at gmail.com Wed Nov 18 10:47:16 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 17:47:16 +0100 Subject: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: <20201118161505.GA68963@night.db.net> References: <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> <20201118161505.GA68963@night.db.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 at 17:15, Diane Bruce wrote: > > My expat FIL was from Lancs. Good part is I learned how to make a decent pot > of tea. The bad is, I couldn't understand him half the time. Being from Lancashire myself, I can't see the problem, but the rest of the UK regards us as impenetrable. Prime example: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6u0reg Discussion: https://www.goodiesruleok.com/articles.php?id=17 -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From tsg at bonedaddy.net Wed Nov 18 10:49:44 2020 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 11:49:44 -0500 Subject: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: At least you didn't call us all "Merkins"... On 11/17/2020 8:03 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 at 15:36, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: >> Most "Merikens" just let the bank do the conversion when they buy >> from overseas. > Argh! I was not posting to the list that I thought I was. I apologise > for using that nickname. :-( > From db at db.net Wed Nov 18 10:56:22 2020 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 11:56:22 -0500 Subject: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <20201118165622.GA70094@night.db.net> On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 11:49:44AM -0500, Todd Goodman via cctalk wrote: > At least you didn't call us all "Merkins"... I've done that and yes before you ask I know what it means. *whistles innocently* _ - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From mechanic_2 at charter.net Wed Nov 18 10:57:40 2020 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 10:57:40 -0600 Subject: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <5FB55284.9030309@charter.net> Hello all, Do you think that we can get back to the original question?? GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 11/18/2020 10:49 AM, Todd Goodman via cctalk wrote: > At least you didn't call us all "Merkins"... > > On 11/17/2020 8:03 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >> On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 at 15:36, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk >> wrote: >>> Most "Merikens" just let the bank do the conversion when they buy >>> from overseas. >> Argh! I was not posting to the list that I thought I was. I apologise >> for using that nickname. :-( >> > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 18 14:20:36 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 12:20:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Regional accents and dialects (Was: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: >> Most of us "merkens" haven't truly mastered one language. On Wed, 18 Nov 2020, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > I was very surprised to discover a couple of years ago that many in > the USA pronounce "squirrel" as "skwerl". My surprise was subsequently > pushed to its limits when I discovered that the 'L' in 'solder' has > become silent and it is now commonly pronounced "sodder". And the machines that Calcomp made (570, etc.) were called "plodders" > But yesterday, I discovered that the 'L' in words such as "palm", > "balm" and "psalm" is _no longer_ silent and is actively pronounced in > some regions of the US, and mere surprise was no longer adequate and I > was forced to resort to astonishment. Nobody around here will use Worcestershire sauce, because they are afraid to even try to pronounce it. For a while, I lived near "Bawlmer" (Baltimore) (The most significant landmark is the B R O M O S E L T Z E R clock - what time is it when both hands are on 'O's?) OB_ON_Topic: That was the origin of the Seequa Chameleon, the only computer [that I know of] to come with 3.25" drives (that Dysan had bet the company on. As part of that "bet", for a very brief time, all of the most major software packages were available on 3.25" disks!) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 18 15:02:08 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 13:02:08 -0800 Subject: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: <5FB55284.9030309@charter.net> References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> <5FB55284.9030309@charter.net> Message-ID: <9aaf027c-fcac-87ad-c80c-7b58ea28a6c1@bitsavers.org> On 11/18/20 8:57 AM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: > ??? Do you think that we can get back to the original question?? Knowing this list, that won't happen. From ethan at 757.org Wed Nov 18 15:03:06 2020 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 16:03:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: <9aaf027c-fcac-87ad-c80c-7b58ea28a6c1@bitsavers.org> References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> <5FB55284.9030309@charter.net> <9aaf027c-fcac-87ad-c80c-7b58ea28a6c1@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: >> ??? Do you think that we can get back to the original question?? > Knowing this list, that won't happen. HGST! -- : Ethan O'Toole From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 18 15:53:09 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 13:53:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> <5FB55284.9030309@charter.net> <9aaf027c-fcac-87ad-c80c-7b58ea28a6c1@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Nov 2020, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: >>> ??? Do you think that we can get back to the original question?? >> Knowing this list, that won't happen. > > HGST! I apologize to Al for S/N ratio. I honestly have little or nothing to offer, but appreciate reading it - lately I have had need of a bunch of 2.5" SATA drives for my Seagatre GoFlex-TV video streamers, so I have been shucking (thanks for filling me in on the correct term!) Seagate 2TB Backup Plus externals. I am pleased that 2TB SSD is now avaailable. But, I will now try some of the HGST 2.5" SATA drives. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Nov 18 16:03:07 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 17:03:07 -0500 Subject: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> <5FB55284.9030309@charter.net> <9aaf027c-fcac-87ad-c80c-7b58ea28a6c1@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <812FD221-C8C2-4201-B5CA-6BD6CE9641C0@comcast.net> > On Nov 18, 2020, at 4:53 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, 18 Nov 2020, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: >>>> Do you think that we can get back to the original question?? >>> Knowing this list, that won't happen. >> >> HGST! > > I apologize to Al for S/N ratio. > > I honestly have little or nothing to offer, but appreciate reading it - lately I have had need of a bunch of 2.5" SATA drives for my Seagatre GoFlex-TV video streamers, so I have been shucking (thanks for filling me in on the correct term!) Seagate 2TB Backup Plus externals. > > I am pleased that 2TB SSD is now avaailable. > > > But, I will now try some of the HGST 2.5" SATA drives. I don't have much to offer; my experience with enterprise class HDDs is mostly SAS (unless you go way back over 10 years). I didn't even know that such a thing as "enterprise class SATA" exists. One caution: I can't point to any manufacturer as "always good" or "always bad". The reality is that drive design is an incredibly hairy job, and small issues can appear in a given model to mess up the reliability of a particular design. Sometimes those design issues don't appear until some time after release. In other words, the fact that brand X has really good 4 TB drives doesn't necessarily tell you much about their 8 TB drives. Conversely, if brand Y had a bad implementation of 3 TB drives, that probably doesn't carry over to later models (not even later models in the same size, let alone in different sizes). If you run your drives in a well cooled enclosure, that will help. I've seen some drives that became problematic when run at the high end of their temperature specs, as might happen in high powered servers or in storage arrays with lots of drives in a small enclosure. Some failure modes are related to temperature, and if your drives are well below the spec limit that will help. Conversely, do pay attention to HDD temperature specs. Those numbers should be taken seriously. A lot of electronics can be run moderately over temperature without serious consequences, but the mechanics of hard drives are often far less forgiving. paul From mechanic_2 at charter.net Wed Nov 18 16:08:34 2020 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 16:08:34 -0600 Subject: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: <812FD221-C8C2-4201-B5CA-6BD6CE9641C0@comcast.net> References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> <5FB55284.9030309@charter.net> <9aaf027c-fcac-87ad-c80c-7b58ea28a6c1@bitsavers.org> <812FD221-C8C2-4201-B5CA-6BD6CE9641C0@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5FB59B62.4040500@charter.net> Paul, You are entirely correct when it comes to temperature. Even ten or 20 degrees F can severely shorten the life of a HDD. It looks like I will be getting HGST drives even though I have had some difficulties with them. GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! > I don't have much to offer; my experience with enterprise class HDDs is mostly SAS (unless you go way back over 10 years). I didn't even know that such a thing as "enterprise class SATA" exists. > > One caution: I can't point to any manufacturer as "always good" or "always bad". The reality is that drive design is an incredibly hairy job, and small issues can appear in a given model to mess up the reliability of a particular design. Sometimes those design issues don't appear until some time after release. > > In other words, the fact that brand X has really good 4 TB drives doesn't necessarily tell you much about their 8 TB drives. Conversely, if brand Y had a bad implementation of 3 TB drives, that probably doesn't carry over to later models (not even later models in the same size, let alone in different sizes). > > If you run your drives in a well cooled enclosure, that will help. I've seen some drives that became problematic when run at the high end of their temperature specs, as might happen in high powered servers or in storage arrays with lots of drives in a small enclosure. Some failure modes are related to temperature, and if your drives are well below the spec limit that will help. > > Conversely, do pay attention to HDD temperature specs. Those numbers should be taken seriously. A lot of electronics can be run moderately over temperature without serious consequences, but the mechanics of hard drives are often far less forgiving. > > paul > > From classiccmp at crash.com Wed Nov 18 16:27:33 2020 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 14:27:33 -0800 Subject: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> Message-ID: <0a895e4b-0dc9-e6ec-c16a-495bd15a5111@crash.com> On 11/16/20 7:27 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: > > ??? In the opinions of you experts out there considering reliability > being number one on the list with speed be number two on the list what > would you folks consider to be the best SATA drives on the market? Not an expert, but I'm as dependent on spinning rust as everybody else... HGST has gotten my vote and a considerable amount of my? money over the years. I favored their 2.5" IDE and then SATA drives for ages, back to before they bought the business from IBM. BackBlaze reporting was a factor in switching to HGST/Toshiba 3.5" 3TB drives many years ago from Seagate, when Toshiba was producing the HGST design after some complicated deal splitting up HGST's product lines. More recently I upgraded my main array to HGST He8 drives, and picked up a box of NOS 600GB 2.5" SAS drives for system disks. All of these are used in ZFS raidz2 setups in HP rackmount servers/JBODs 2-3 versions behind current. --S. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Nov 18 16:52:26 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 15:52:26 -0700 Subject: The best hard drives?? (joke) In-Reply-To: References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On 11/17/2020 7:09 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 11/17/20 8:53 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>>>> Most "Merikens" just let the bank do the conversion when they buy >>>>> from overseas. >> >>> On 11/17/20 8:03 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >>>> Argh! I was not posting to the list that I thought I was. I apologise >>>> for using that nickname. :-( >> >> On Tue, 17 Nov 2020, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >>> Don't feel bad us "Merikens" tend to be thick skinned. >>> >>> Time for one of my favorites. >>> >>> Question:? How do you describe someone who speaks three languages? >>> Answer:??? Trilingual >>> >>> Question:? How do you describe someone who speaks two languages? >>> Answer:??? Bilingual >>> >>> Question:? How do you describe someone who speaks one language? >>> Answer:??? American >> >> Most of us "merkens" haven't truly mastered one language. > > Well, we did settle on one of the most ambiguous and confusing > languages in the world!! > > bill Austrailan? Runs... From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 18 16:56:44 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 14:56:44 -0800 Subject: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: <0a895e4b-0dc9-e6ec-c16a-495bd15a5111@crash.com> References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <0a895e4b-0dc9-e6ec-c16a-495bd15a5111@crash.com> Message-ID: <9df60db6-ca3a-4c58-1c1f-749b3be9a3d2@sydex.com> Tangential to this, I've long wondered about some things relating to SSDs. Are there any solid figures on their retention period after years of being unpowered? The reason I ask is that I've long been in the habit of simply shelving an old hard drive when I upgrade or replace a system. I've got hard drives that still work that hail back to the days of OS/2 1.1; some larger ones go back to the 1970s. --Chuck From mechanic_2 at charter.net Wed Nov 18 17:37:27 2020 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 17:37:27 -0600 Subject: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: <9df60db6-ca3a-4c58-1c1f-749b3be9a3d2@sydex.com> References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <0a895e4b-0dc9-e6ec-c16a-495bd15a5111@crash.com> <9df60db6-ca3a-4c58-1c1f-749b3be9a3d2@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5FB5B037.4000008@charter.net> Chuck, I am concerned about SSDs because thy can only be written to a limited number of times. Spinning platters have unlimited write cycles barring a hardware or electronics failure. GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 11/18/2020 4:56 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Tangential to this, I've long wondered about some things relating to > SSDs. Are there any solid figures on their retention period after years > of being unpowered? > > The reason I ask is that I've long been in the habit of simply shelving > an old hard drive when I upgrade or replace a system. I've got hard > drives that still work that hail back to the days of OS/2 1.1; some > larger ones go back to the 1970s. > > --Chuck > > > > > From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Wed Nov 18 18:07:14 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 16:07:14 -0800 Subject: Crypto Ancienne: TLS for the Internet of Old Things In-Reply-To: <202011161834.0AGIYd2T6488266@floodgap.com> References: <202011161834.0AGIYd2T6488266@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <149856EB-741C-42EF-A523-14AEBD736400@eschatologist.net> On Nov 16, 2020, at 10:34 AM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: > > If you have an older pre-C99 system, I've backported a TLS 1.2 library to gcc > versions as early as 2.5 as long as it has 64-bit ints (long long, usually) > and stdarg.h. > > https://github.com/classilla/cryanc Great work, Cameron! Another option for these systems is mbedTLS, originally by ARM. It only requires C89, it can serve as a replacement for SSL libraries that follow the standard API signatures, it is also quite easy to build (a little more complicated than Crypto Ancienne, though not by much--you just need to examine its GNUmakefile to derive a build system for whatever OS you're targeting), and it's fairly complete. One advantage of mbedTLS is that it works with libcurl, libssh2, etc. already so if you need to build more such things you have a good basis to start from. At some point MacSSH may use it. Or maybe the current maintainer will try cryanc. :) -- Chris From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Nov 18 18:16:43 2020 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 16:16:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Crypto Ancienne: TLS for the Internet of Old Things In-Reply-To: <149856EB-741C-42EF-A523-14AEBD736400@eschatologist.net> from Chris Hanson at "Nov 18, 20 04:07:14 pm" Message-ID: <202011190016.0AJ0GhqJ15270094@floodgap.com> > > If you have an older pre-C99 system, I've backported a TLS 1.2 library to > > gcc versions as early as 2.5 as long as it has 64-bit ints (long long, > > usually) and stdarg.h. > > > > https://github.com/classilla/cryanc > > Great work, Cameron! Thanks! > Another option for these systems is mbedTLS, originally by ARM. It only > requires C89, I looked at mbedTLS (formerly PolarSSL) before I even embarked on it based on other recommendations, but it claims to require c99: https://github.com/ARMmbed/mbedtls Have you had success building it on other systems? What compilers could you get away with? I'd rather not reinvent the wheel but it seemed like I had to. > At some point MacSSH may use it. Or maybe the current maintainer will try > cryanc. :) Didn't lsh get some updates? Or was I thinking of something else? ISTR that MacSSH used lsh under the hood. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Hidden DOS secret: add BUGS=OFF to your CONFIG.SYS. ------------------------ From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Wed Nov 18 18:23:43 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 16:23:43 -0800 Subject: Crypto Ancienne: TLS for the Internet of Old Things In-Reply-To: <202011190016.0AJ0GhqJ15270094@floodgap.com> References: <202011190016.0AJ0GhqJ15270094@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4D52B848-94D8-4805-AB4E-8EB67F8BCD3C@eschatologist.net> On Nov 18, 2020, at 4:16 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: >> Another option for these systems is mbedTLS, originally by ARM. It only >> requires C89, > > I looked at mbedTLS (formerly PolarSSL) before I even embarked on it based > on other recommendations, but it claims to require c99: Oh, bummer, maybe I'm just misremembering. > > https://github.com/ARMmbed/mbedtls > > Have you had success building it on other systems? What compilers could you > get away with? I'd rather not reinvent the wheel but it seemed like I had to. I was able to build its three component libraries just fine with CodeWarrior 7 on Mac OS 9 on my iMac G4. Same with libssh2. I never actually got to the point of testing it though, the iMac's PSU died. :( >> At some point MacSSH may use it. Or maybe the current maintainer will try >> cryanc. :) > > Didn't lsh get some updates? Or was I thinking of something else? ISTR that > MacSSH used lsh under the hood. It did, but it was also in the process of switching to libssh2, so Brendan switched that from OpenSSL to mbedTLS too: https://github.com/macssh/macssh/tree/libssh2 In case anyone wants to contribute. (Alas I can't, for the usual reasons, but maybe someone can?) -- Chris From mazzinia at tin.it Wed Nov 18 18:45:56 2020 From: mazzinia at tin.it (mazzinia at tin.it) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 01:45:56 +0100 Subject: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: <9df60db6-ca3a-4c58-1c1f-749b3be9a3d2@sydex.com> References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <0a895e4b-0dc9-e6ec-c16a-495bd15a5111@crash.com> <9df60db6-ca3a-4c58-1c1f-749b3be9a3d2@sydex.com> Message-ID: <055001d6be0d$58047df0$080d79d0$@tin.it> https://www.elinfor.com/article/E/l/Electron%20and%20temperature%20diagram.jpg In theory. In any case it would not be wise to keep an ssd unpowered for various years. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2020 11:57 PM To: Steven M Jones via cctalk Subject: Re: The best hard drives?? Tangential to this, I've long wondered about some things relating to SSDs. Are there any solid figures on their retention period after years of being unpowered? The reason I ask is that I've long been in the habit of simply shelving an old hard drive when I upgrade or replace a system. I've got hard drives that still work that hail back to the days of OS/2 1.1; some larger ones go back to the 1970s. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 18 18:58:11 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 16:58:11 -0800 Subject: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: <055001d6be0d$58047df0$080d79d0$@tin.it> References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <0a895e4b-0dc9-e6ec-c16a-495bd15a5111@crash.com> <9df60db6-ca3a-4c58-1c1f-749b3be9a3d2@sydex.com> <055001d6be0d$58047df0$080d79d0$@tin.it> Message-ID: <54712df2-cc1f-696b-ade7-56586e21a1bf@sydex.com> On 11/18/20 4:45 PM, mazzinia at tin.it wrote: > https://www.elinfor.com/article/E/l/Electron%20and%20temperature%20diagram.jpg > > In theory. > In any case it would not be wise to keep an ssd unpowered for various years. Yech. So in, say, 5 years, you can call it "toast"? --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Nov 18 19:00:43 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 20:00:43 -0500 Subject: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: <9df60db6-ca3a-4c58-1c1f-749b3be9a3d2@sydex.com> References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <0a895e4b-0dc9-e6ec-c16a-495bd15a5111@crash.com> <9df60db6-ca3a-4c58-1c1f-749b3be9a3d2@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1A3AB4DE-F158-4F8C-BC25-CA7ED9F79E98@comcast.net> > On Nov 18, 2020, at 5:56 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > Tangential to this, I've long wondered about some things relating to > SSDs. Are there any solid figures on their retention period after years > of being unpowered? > > The reason I ask is that I've long been in the habit of simply shelving > an old hard drive when I upgrade or replace a system. I've got hard > drives that still work that hail back to the days of OS/2 1.1; some > larger ones go back to the 1970s. You should be able to find the answer in the drive specs. As I understand it, there are two rather different ranges of answer depending on whether you're looking at an enterprise class drive, which is optimized for high speed and large total amount of data written, vs. a consumer drive. The power-off retention spec is much shorter for the enterprise drives. I forgot the numbers; I vaguely remember it being less than a year. If the drive has power it will do something analogous to DRAM refresh to keep the bits in good shape. But it seems that the HDD rule that you can just set a drive on the shelf for a decade (ditto with other magnetic media) does not necessarily carry over to SSD. paul From imp at bsdimp.com Wed Nov 18 19:16:17 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 18:16:17 -0700 Subject: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: <1A3AB4DE-F158-4F8C-BC25-CA7ED9F79E98@comcast.net> References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <0a895e4b-0dc9-e6ec-c16a-495bd15a5111@crash.com> <9df60db6-ca3a-4c58-1c1f-749b3be9a3d2@sydex.com> <1A3AB4DE-F158-4F8C-BC25-CA7ED9F79E98@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 6:00 PM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Nov 18, 2020, at 5:56 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Tangential to this, I've long wondered about some things relating to > > SSDs. Are there any solid figures on their retention period after years > > of being unpowered? > > > > The reason I ask is that I've long been in the habit of simply shelving > > an old hard drive when I upgrade or replace a system. I've got hard > > drives that still work that hail back to the days of OS/2 1.1; some > > larger ones go back to the 1970s. > > You should be able to find the answer in the drive specs. > > As I understand it, there are two rather different ranges of answer > depending on whether you're looking at an enterprise class drive, which is > optimized for high speed and large total amount of data written, vs. a > consumer drive. The power-off retention spec is much shorter for the > enterprise drives. I forgot the numbers; I vaguely remember it being less > than a year. > For SSD devices, based on NAND Flash, the specs for retention are 90 days for enterprise drives and 1 year for consumer drives, both at 20C. The difference allows enterprise drives to trade retention for increased write rate. > If the drive has power it will do something analogous to DRAM refresh to > keep the bits in good shape. But it seems that the HDD rule that you can > just set a drive on the shelf for a decade (ditto with other magnetic > media) does not necessarily carry over to SSD. > Yes. NAND is just a bunch of small capacitors that decay over time. The bit error rate increases following the arrhenius law. The ECC that goes along with NAND is paired to allow NAND that's almost worn out to still retain data for {3 months/1 year} given its expected bit error rate when it's almost worn out when programmed, coupled with the expected decay during the specified retention time. Also note I said "at 20C." The acceleration effect can be quite pronounced should the data center suffer some catastrophic event that leaves it without power in a super hot environment for weeks or months. At ~70C the acceleration factor can be as high as 30-90x, which can render enterprise drives not reliable after a few days baking at high temperatures. Brand new NAND, on the other hand, typically has retention capabilities measured in years or tens of years. It's the wear and tear of use that makes it less reliable, often much less reliable. And the multi level per cell technologies are much worse than the single level per cell. It's one reason that the smaller number of bits per cell NAND tends to last longer than larger bits per cell, all other things being equal. The smaller process sizes also were less reliable since they could store fewer electrons (sometimes as few as a dozen or two per state). 3D NAND was so much better because it could grow vertically, allowing NAND manufacturers to return to larger process sizes and still increase density, also giving better endurance for a time... Warner From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Nov 18 19:23:45 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 20:23:45 -0500 Subject: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <0a895e4b-0dc9-e6ec-c16a-495bd15a5111@crash.com> <9df60db6-ca3a-4c58-1c1f-749b3be9a3d2@sydex.com> <1A3AB4DE-F158-4F8C-BC25-CA7ED9F79E98@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 11/18/20 8:16 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 6:00 PM Paul Koning via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >> >>> On Nov 18, 2020, at 5:56 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> >>> Tangential to this, I've long wondered about some things relating to >>> SSDs. Are there any solid figures on their retention period after years >>> of being unpowered? >>> >>> The reason I ask is that I've long been in the habit of simply shelving >>> an old hard drive when I upgrade or replace a system. I've got hard >>> drives that still work that hail back to the days of OS/2 1.1; some >>> larger ones go back to the 1970s. >> >> You should be able to find the answer in the drive specs. >> >> As I understand it, there are two rather different ranges of answer >> depending on whether you're looking at an enterprise class drive, which is >> optimized for high speed and large total amount of data written, vs. a >> consumer drive. The power-off retention spec is much shorter for the >> enterprise drives. I forgot the numbers; I vaguely remember it being less >> than a year. >> > > For SSD devices, based on NAND Flash, the specs for retention are 90 days > for enterprise drives and 1 year for consumer drives, both at 20C. The > difference allows enterprise drives to trade retention for increased write > rate. > > >> If the drive has power it will do something analogous to DRAM refresh to >> keep the bits in good shape. But it seems that the HDD rule that you can >> just set a drive on the shelf for a decade (ditto with other magnetic >> media) does not necessarily carry over to SSD. >> > > Yes. NAND is just a bunch of small capacitors that decay over time. The bit > error rate increases following the arrhenius law. The ECC that goes along > with NAND is paired to allow NAND that's almost worn out to still retain > data for {3 months/1 year} given its expected bit error rate when it's > almost worn out when programmed, coupled with the expected decay during the > specified retention time. > > Also note I said "at 20C." The acceleration effect can be quite pronounced > should the data center suffer some catastrophic event that leaves it > without power in a super hot environment for weeks or months. At ~70C the > acceleration factor can be as high as 30-90x, which can render enterprise > drives not reliable after a few days baking at high temperatures. > > Brand new NAND, on the other hand, typically has retention capabilities > measured in years or tens of years. It's the wear and tear of use that > makes it less reliable, often much less reliable. And the multi level per > cell technologies are much worse than the single level per cell. It's one > reason that the smaller number of bits per cell NAND tends to last longer > than larger bits per cell, all other things being equal. The smaller > process sizes also were less reliable since they could store fewer > electrons (sometimes as few as a dozen or two per state). 3D NAND was so > much better because it could grow vertically, allowing NAND manufacturers > to return to larger process sizes and still increase density, also giving > better endurance for a time... > An interesting write-up. Brings up a question on a slightly related item. Do Compact Flash and SD have the same short life when not powered? What things like Flash Memory used to hold firmware on other kinds of chips. bill From imp at bsdimp.com Wed Nov 18 19:35:22 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 18:35:22 -0700 Subject: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <0a895e4b-0dc9-e6ec-c16a-495bd15a5111@crash.com> <9df60db6-ca3a-4c58-1c1f-749b3be9a3d2@sydex.com> <1A3AB4DE-F158-4F8C-BC25-CA7ED9F79E98@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 6:24 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 11/18/20 8:16 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 6:00 PM Paul Koning via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> > >> > >>> On Nov 18, 2020, at 5:56 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >>> > >>> Tangential to this, I've long wondered about some things relating to > >>> SSDs. Are there any solid figures on their retention period after > years > >>> of being unpowered? > >>> > >>> The reason I ask is that I've long been in the habit of simply shelving > >>> an old hard drive when I upgrade or replace a system. I've got hard > >>> drives that still work that hail back to the days of OS/2 1.1; some > >>> larger ones go back to the 1970s. > >> > >> You should be able to find the answer in the drive specs. > >> > >> As I understand it, there are two rather different ranges of answer > >> depending on whether you're looking at an enterprise class drive, which > is > >> optimized for high speed and large total amount of data written, vs. a > >> consumer drive. The power-off retention spec is much shorter for the > >> enterprise drives. I forgot the numbers; I vaguely remember it being > less > >> than a year. > >> > > > > For SSD devices, based on NAND Flash, the specs for retention are 90 days > > for enterprise drives and 1 year for consumer drives, both at 20C. The > > difference allows enterprise drives to trade retention for increased > write > > rate. > > > > > >> If the drive has power it will do something analogous to DRAM refresh to > >> keep the bits in good shape. But it seems that the HDD rule that you > can > >> just set a drive on the shelf for a decade (ditto with other magnetic > >> media) does not necessarily carry over to SSD. > >> > > > > Yes. NAND is just a bunch of small capacitors that decay over time. The > bit > > error rate increases following the arrhenius law. The ECC that goes along > > with NAND is paired to allow NAND that's almost worn out to still retain > > data for {3 months/1 year} given its expected bit error rate when it's > > almost worn out when programmed, coupled with the expected decay during > the > > specified retention time. > > > > Also note I said "at 20C." The acceleration effect can be quite > pronounced > > should the data center suffer some catastrophic event that leaves it > > without power in a super hot environment for weeks or months. At ~70C the > > acceleration factor can be as high as 30-90x, which can render enterprise > > drives not reliable after a few days baking at high temperatures. > > > > Brand new NAND, on the other hand, typically has retention capabilities > > measured in years or tens of years. It's the wear and tear of use that > > makes it less reliable, often much less reliable. And the multi level per > > cell technologies are much worse than the single level per cell. It's one > > reason that the smaller number of bits per cell NAND tends to last longer > > than larger bits per cell, all other things being equal. The smaller > > process sizes also were less reliable since they could store fewer > > electrons (sometimes as few as a dozen or two per state). 3D NAND was so > > much better because it could grow vertically, allowing NAND manufacturers > > to return to larger process sizes and still increase density, also giving > > better endurance for a time... > > > > An interesting write-up. Brings up a question on a slightly related > item. Do Compact Flash and SD have the same short life when not > powered? What things like Flash Memory used to hold firmware on > other kinds of chips. > Yes. They do. It's all the same NAND. However, as I said, freshly made NAND tends to have very long retention times, so for those use cases, the application is fine. Unless you are doing a lot of writing to the drive where the firmware is on, you'll see good results. And a lot usually means on the order or rewriting the drive every day. Almost all CF (larger than around 16MB) and SD cards (larger than about 32MB) have wear leveling as well, which periodically moves the cold OS data around to even out the P/E cycles the erase blocks across the device. Also, most of the time, the firmware is in devices that's powered on, so it will move the data should it decay too much, even when there's not a lot of traffic to the drive (especially, that's when the FTL loves to do its housekeeping). 'writing often' for NAND in this context is usually measured in 'several times per day', though with QLC drives, this can be as little as 0.3 or 0.1. The drive writes per day (DWPD) is a spec sheet item these days, and different levels of drive have differing values clustering around 0.3, 1, 3 and higher... Warner From rsmilward at frontier.com Thu Nov 19 08:51:01 2020 From: rsmilward at frontier.com (Richard Milward) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 09:51:01 -0500 Subject: Emails not appearing References: <9dbabcdf-ae65-ea1e-f910-27cfd0356204.ref@frontier.com> Message-ID: <9dbabcdf-ae65-ea1e-f910-27cfd0356204@frontier.com> I've sent a few things to this address, but they haven't shown up in the regular digests I get. How do I get something into the digest so other folks can see it? (Or does it have to be about DEC machines? Ha-ha!) Thanks! -- **Richard From lproven at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 10:13:54 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 17:13:54 +0100 Subject: Regional accents and dialects (Was: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 at 21:20, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > And the machines that Calcomp made (570, etc.) were called "plodders" I am well-used to that one; I think all Brits are, from TV and cinema. (Aside: it is amusing to me, at least, that some British actors succeeded in Hollywood or TV analogues thereof, playing Americans, in what to other Brits sound like unconvincing accents: Hugh Laurie ("House"), Bob Hoskins ("Who Framed Roger Rabbit?").) > Nobody around here will use Worcestershire sauce, because they are > afraid to even try to pronounce it. It took me decades to realise, but P G Wodehouse's famed fictional character Bertie Wooster has the same name. "Wooster" is just a phonetic rendering of "Worcester". Any placename with "chester" or variant thereof is ~2000 years old, because it derives from the Latin "castrum" used by the Romans. Castra were Roman fortified bases. Sounds drift a lot over two millennia. Gloucester ? "Gloster" Leicester ? "Lester" Worcester ? "Wooster" My personal favourite is Woolfardisworthy. It's a pretty little village, but its name sounds so different, they put the phonetic version on signposts too, so outsiders can actually find it: Woolsery. > For a while, I lived near "Bawlmer" (Baltimore) Huh. I did not know Baltimore was not pronounced boll-tea-more. I've watched this many times but never clocked on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfIWX5vGTEk ? sweary but highly amusing > (The most significant landmark is the B R O M O S E L T Z E R clock - what > time is it when both hands are on 'O's?) *Googles it* Coo... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 10:58:23 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 11:58:23 -0500 Subject: Regional accents and dialects (Was: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 11:14 AM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > (Aside: it is amusing to me, at least, that some British actors > succeeded in Hollywood or TV analogues thereof, playing Americans, in > what to other Brits sound like unconvincing accents: Hugh Laurie > ("House"), Bob Hoskins ("Who Framed Roger Rabbit?").) As an American, I think Hugh Laurie and Bob Hoskins have quite acceptable American accents, as does Jamie Bamber (Lee "Apollo" Adama in Battlestar Galactica). The funny thing is I just caught an episode of Hugh Lauie in Masterpiece Theater "Roadkill" and thought he sounds "less British" than he did in the days of Fry and Laurie. > It took me decades to realise, but P G Wodehouse's famed fictional > character Bertie Wooster has the same name. "Wooster" is just a > phonetic rendering of "Worcester". Any placename with "chester" or > variant thereof is ~2000 years old... >Worcester ? "Wooster" We have a Wooster, Ohio, but owing to the local rural accent, there's a "Wooooster/Wuhster" pronunciation split. The local joke is "Wooster, where the cows say 'Muh'". -ethan From abuse at cabal.org.uk Thu Nov 19 11:11:02 2020 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 18:11:02 +0100 Subject: Regional accents and dialects (Was: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: References: <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <20201119171102.GA21838@mooli.org.uk> On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 12:20:36PM -0800, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: [...] >> But yesterday, I discovered that the 'L' in words such as "palm", "balm" and >> "psalm" is _no longer_ silent and is actively pronounced in some regions of >> the US, and mere surprise was no longer adequate and I was forced to resort >> to astonishment. They're soft but not silent in my accent. But you're from the northwest and all bets are off when it comes to how the pie-eaters speak. Presumably at least the "P" in "psalm" is silent, because that really does sound weird if not. > Nobody around here will use Worcestershire sauce, because they are afraid to > even try to pronounce it. Call it "Lea and Perrins" like the rest of us, except in Sheffield where it's called "Henderson's" for reasons that Yorkshiremen will readily expand upon in depth, regardless of whether or not you actually wanted to know. From lproven at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 12:00:07 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 19:00:07 +0100 Subject: Regional accents and dialects (Was: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Nov 2020 at 17:58, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > As an American, I think Hugh Laurie and Bob Hoskins have quite > acceptable American accents AIUI, most people do. I think it's just to their countrymen that they sound artificial. > as does Jamie Bamber (Lee "Apollo" Adama > in Battlestar Galactica). (*Googles*) Oh! Didn't know he wasn't. But apparently his dad's American, so I guess he grew up hearing it. > The funny thing is I just caught an episode > of Hugh Lauie in Masterpiece Theater "Roadkill" and thought he sounds > "less British" than he did in the days of Fry and Laurie. :-) > We have a Wooster, Ohio, but owing to the local rural accent, there's > a "Wooooster/Wuhster" pronunciation split. The local joke is > "Wooster, where the cows say 'Muh'". :-D -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 19 12:53:52 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 10:53:52 -0800 Subject: Regional accents and dialects (Was: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <75afa257-826b-1745-9845-6d77b2ce573f@sydex.com> Joolery Febyuary Wenzday New-cu-elar From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Nov 19 13:00:29 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 12:00:29 -0700 Subject: Emails not appearing In-Reply-To: References: <9dbabcdf-ae65-ea1e-f910-27cfd0356204.ref@frontier.com> <9dbabcdf-ae65-ea1e-f910-27cfd0356204@frontier.com> <2157d581-ff26-7cb3-fd85-85f6526590f1@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <32a606fe-8232-3a4b-8787-0cdc46253d87@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Hi, On 11/19/20 11:25 AM, Richard Milward wrote: > Yes, my latest message did show up today, I just saw it. > But I don't understand your "-cctalk / +direct" comment. I removed cctalk the mailing list that I received the email from. I then added you as a direct recipient. > I don't subscribe to the list, I get enough emails as it is! Did you send an email to the cctalk mailing list? If you sent to it and you aren't subscribed, perhaps your messages have been held for moderation. That would account for delay. > Thanks. You're welcome. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From julf at julf.com Thu Nov 19 13:07:36 2020 From: julf at julf.com (Johan Helsingius) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 20:07:36 +0100 Subject: Regional accents and dialects (Was: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: <20201119171102.GA21838@mooli.org.uk> References: <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> <20201119171102.GA21838@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <5e696725-383a-00cd-20df-63368f1bda9a@julf.com> On 19-11-2020 18:11, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > They're soft but not silent in my accent. But you're from the northwest and all > bets are off when it comes to how the pie-eaters speak. Presumably at least the > "P" in "psalm" is silent, because that really does sound weird if not. https://www.amazon.com/Pterodactyl-Worst-Alphabet-Book-Ever/dp/1492674311 Julf From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 19 16:06:00 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 14:06:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Regional accents and dialects (Was: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: >> For a while, I lived near "Bawlmer" (Baltimore) On Thu, 19 Nov 2020, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Huh. I did not know Baltimore was not pronounced boll-tea-more. I was told that the "correct" pronunciation was BAWL-tim-more Well, admittedly, there was a time half a century ago, when certain forces objected to the "MISpronunciation". Radio staff, in response to the pressure, said bawl - TEA-more. Half a century ago, there were horse drawn rag carts, a lot of cobblestone streets, giant mutant rats at the harbor, and major renovation being started. Along route 40, and many other major streets, there were dozens of blocks slated for demolition. They developed a style of their own; they took all of the doors from inside a condemned group of houses and nailed those together to make a fence. So, there would be block after block of multicolored door-fence from street corner to street corner, punctuated at intervals by marble doorsteps. I have heard that the harbor is now a tourist destination; that probably includes a reduction of the rat population. Long Island (NY) was pronounced Lawn-GUY-land From jsw at ieee.org Thu Nov 19 16:49:47 2020 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 16:49:47 -0600 Subject: Regional accents and dialects (Was: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On 11/19/20 4:06 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > > Long Island (NY) was pronounced Lawn-GUY-land > > The current Long Island accent developed in the mid to late 80's.???? Most of us living there before that had Bronx or Brooklyn accents... I remember some of my friends would type on a ASR-33 with different accents as well.... From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Nov 19 17:14:12 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 18:14:12 -0500 Subject: Regional accents and dialects (Was: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On 11/19/20 5:06 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> For a while, I lived near "Bawlmer" (Baltimore) > > On Thu, 19 Nov 2020, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >> Huh. I did not know Baltimore was not pronounced boll-tea-more. > > I was told that the "correct" pronunciation was BAWL-tim-more > > Well, admittedly, there was a time half a century ago, when certain > forces objected to the "MISpronunciation".? Radio staff, in response to > the pressure, said bawl - TEA-more. > > Half a century ago, there were horse drawn rag carts, a lot of > cobblestone streets, giant mutant rats at the harbor, and major > renovation being started.? Along route 40, and many other major streets, > there were dozens of blocks slated for demolition.? They developed a > style of their own; they took all of the doors from inside a condemned > group of houses and nailed those together to make a fence.? So, there > would be block after block of multicolored door-fence from street corner > to street corner, punctuated at intervals by marble doorsteps. > I have heard that the harbor is now a tourist destination; that probably > includes a reduction of the rat population. > > > Long Island (NY) was pronounced Lawn-GUY-land If you want a real hoot, try listening to some Old Time Radio. In Gunsmoke: Arkansas == ARE-can-sass In most detective programs until at least the late 50's: Los Angeles == LAS ahn-gall-lees And let's not forget Kato, the Green Hornets faithful val-let. English always was and still is a very fluid language. bill From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 17:52:12 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 18:52:12 -0500 Subject: Regional accents and dialects (Was: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 6:14 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > In most detective programs until at least the late > 50's: Los Angeles == LAS ahn-gall-lees Definitely heard that a bunch on Perry Mason. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 19 17:56:26 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 15:56:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Regional accents and dialects (Was: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: How many are aware that the capital of South Dakota, "PIERRE" is pronounced by the locals "PEER"? Is the "correct" pronunciation the dominant local one? From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Nov 19 18:33:14 2020 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 19:33:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Regional accents and dialects (Was: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: Why don't you guys take this to another list, where someone might actually see its relevance? Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 19 18:33:15 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 16:33:15 -0800 Subject: Regional accents and dialects (Was: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On 11/19/20 3:56 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > How many are aware that the capital of South Dakota, "PIERRE" is > pronounced by the locals "PEER"? > > > Is the "correct" pronunciation the dominant local one? That's the way I learned it. Other US cities: Valparaiso (IN) Edinburgh (IN) Cairo (IL) Des Plaines (IL) Creve Coeur, (MO) (That's "Creeve Core" to you, thank you) etc. etc. One of the strangest US situations is the pronunciation of the Arkansas river. In Kansas and eastern Colorado, it's said the way that it's spelled, with the final "s". Go further downstream into Oklahoma and central Colorado and the state of Arkansas, it's "Arkansaw". I won't delve into the geographical names of the Welsh tract in Pennsylvania... --Chuck From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Thu Nov 19 23:18:38 2020 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 05:18:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Regional accents and dialects (Was: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <1079390428.9684.1605849518486@mail.yahoo.com> > >How many are aware that the capital of South Dakota, "PIERRE" is >pronounced by the locals "PEER"? > > >Is the "correct" pronunciation the dominant local one? I knew about a city called like my first name, but I never knew that it was pronounced that differently :-D Cheers, Pierre ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.digitalheritage.de From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 19 23:28:15 2020 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 05:28:15 +0000 Subject: evil thing to ask but I need keystroke logger Message-ID: I have kids that after corona are in lockdown, so they are on computers all the time. Supposed to be doing schoolwork, but no, feedback from the school is negative. Can I trap some traffic from these PC's and what software would you recommend? Randy From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Nov 19 23:56:41 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 22:56:41 -0700 Subject: evil thing to ask but I need keystroke logger In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0a59c360-a687-badf-62e9-bb67dd5461a0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 11/19/20 10:28 PM, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: > I have kids that after corona are in lockdown, so they are on computers > all the time. Supposed to be doing schoolwork, but no, feedback from > the school is negative. :-/ > Can I trap some traffic from these PC's and what software would > you recommend? What platform? Windows? Linux? (You did say PC.) macOS? Something else? I would be somewhat inclined to avoid software based key loggers as I've heard of problems with them. (Admittedly this was back in DOS / Windows 3.x / 95 days.) As such, I'd be more inclined to use a hardware based keylogger. I have no idea how you parent and I'm just some random guy on the Internet. But if I were in your shoes, I'd tell my kids that they have abused things and that I was now monitoring them. Be honest and up front. Don't hide what you are doing. Give them an opportunity to re-gain trust. I would also use the lack of any information from the key logger to be a indicator that they have compromised it. I might also consider something like VNC where I can watch what's on their screen. If at any point in time you can't see what's on their screen, then you have a different problem. I would also be tempted to give them a tiny bit of leeway. We all get board, finish a task and occasionally need 90 seconds to reset. More than that and I'd think it's a good time to cough really loud, walk past them, what have you. But you are the parent. You know your kids best and what will and will not work for them. Good luck. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 00:29:05 2020 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 00:29:05 -0600 Subject: evil thing to ask but I need keystroke logger In-Reply-To: <0a59c360-a687-badf-62e9-bb67dd5461a0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <0a59c360-a687-badf-62e9-bb67dd5461a0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: interesting. you can log the traffic remotely via a expensive router though u can prolly pick up cheaper secondhand ones if u goe that route make sure to use a locked cabinet of some sort for ur modem and such so they cant just by pass things or install key logers different types out there. software to hardware. theres 3rd party parental control software for windows as well you can use to lock em outa stuff at X times and such lots options depending what you do i would imagin u could also oer time bend this in a little cat and mouse game to encurage them to learn some new skills On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 11:56 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 11/19/20 10:28 PM, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: > > I have kids that after corona are in lockdown, so they are on computers > > all the time. Supposed to be doing schoolwork, but no, feedback from > > the school is negative. > > :-/ > > > Can I trap some traffic from these PC's and what software would > > you recommend? > > What platform? Windows? Linux? (You did say PC.) macOS? Something > else? > > I would be somewhat inclined to avoid software based key loggers as I've > heard of problems with them. (Admittedly this was back in DOS / Windows > 3.x / 95 days.) > > As such, I'd be more inclined to use a hardware based keylogger. > > I have no idea how you parent and I'm just some random guy on the > Internet. But if I were in your shoes, I'd tell my kids that they have > abused things and that I was now monitoring them. Be honest and up > front. Don't hide what you are doing. Give them an opportunity to > re-gain trust. I would also use the lack of any information from the > key logger to be a indicator that they have compromised it. > > I might also consider something like VNC where I can watch what's on > their screen. If at any point in time you can't see what's on their > screen, then you have a different problem. > > I would also be tempted to give them a tiny bit of leeway. We all get > board, finish a task and occasionally need 90 seconds to reset. More > than that and I'd think it's a good time to cough really loud, walk past > them, what have you. > > But you are the parent. You know your kids best and what will and will > not work for them. Good luck. > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > From boris at summitclinic.com Fri Nov 20 02:26:07 2020 From: boris at summitclinic.com (Boris Gimbarzevsky) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 00:26:07 -0800 Subject: evil thing to ask but I need keystroke logger In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20201120082612.DFDD44E6E6@mx2.ezwind.net> If it's a windoze system, modified a bare-bones keylogger about 10 years ago which records all keystrokes (can get time of key_press, key_release) and also monitors all mouse clicks as well as title of window clicked on. Can also record every mouse event which takes up a LOT of disk space. Just hooks keyboard and mouse events and works even on hospital systems which are fairly locked down. Written in VB6 and also wrote a program to either look at keyboard/mouse events over time or to dump text typed in. Has saved lots of work for me as windoze has a bad habit of crashing when I'm 20 minutes into writing a note and can get all keystrokes that were saved to disk during this time. Initially written to find out how much time I spent IFOK. Also has a stealth mode where keylogger window hidden and can be brought up with a key sequence and then need a password to stop it. Not very stealthy as can be easily terminated through ProcessExplorer. Could always use Wireshark to capture all packets exchanged while they're on computer. >I have kids that after corona are in lockdown, so they are on >computers all the time. >Supposed to be doing schoolwork, but no, feedback from the school is negative. > >Can I trap some traffic from these PC's and what software would you recommend? > >Randy From doug at doughq.com Fri Nov 20 06:19:22 2020 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 23:19:22 +1100 Subject: evil thing to ask but I need keystroke logger In-Reply-To: <20201120082612.DFDD44E6E6@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <20201120082612.DFDD44E6E6@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Have you considered asking them what they are doing? You would be surprised how much logging various software packages do. There are always chat logs (unless deleted) - always usage logs - unless deleted. Work with them as a first instance, failing that have them do the work physically beside you. Most traffic coming out of PCs these days is SSL encrypted, and you are not likely to extract meaningful data from a session. Kindest regards, Doug Jackson em: doug at doughq.com ph: 0414 986878 Check out my awesome clocks at www.dougswordclocks.com Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net ----------------------------------------------------------- Just like an old fashioned letter, this email and any files transmitted with it should probably be treated as confidential and intended solely for your own use. Please note that any interesting spelling is usually my own and may have been caused by fat thumbs on a tiny tiny keyboard. Should any part of this message prove to be useful in the event of the imminent Zombie Apocalypse then the sender bears no personal, legal, or moral responsibility for any outcome resulting from its usage unless the result of said usage is the unlikely defeat of the Zombie Hordes in which case the sender takes full credit without any theoretical or actual legal liability. :-) Be nice to your parents. Go outside and do something awesome - Draw, paint, walk, setup a radio station, go fishing or sailing - just do something that makes you happy. ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G- In more laid back days this line would literally sing ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G On Fri, 20 Nov 2020 at 19:26, Boris Gimbarzevsky via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > If it's a windoze system, modified a bare-bones keylogger about 10 > years ago which records all keystrokes (can get time of key_press, > key_release) and also monitors all mouse clicks as well as title of > window clicked on. Can also record every mouse event which takes up > a LOT of disk space. Just hooks keyboard and mouse events and works > even on hospital systems which are fairly locked down. Written in > VB6 and also wrote a program to either look at keyboard/mouse events > over time or to dump text typed in. Has saved lots of work for me as > windoze has a bad habit of crashing when I'm 20 minutes into writing > a note and can get all keystrokes that were saved to disk during this > time. Initially written to find out how much time I spent > IFOK. Also has a stealth mode where keylogger window hidden and can > be brought up with a key sequence and then need a password to stop > it. Not very stealthy as can be easily terminated through ProcessExplorer. > > Could always use Wireshark to capture all packets exchanged while > they're on computer. > > > >I have kids that after corona are in lockdown, so they are on > >computers all the time. > >Supposed to be doing schoolwork, but no, feedback from the school is > negative. > > > >Can I trap some traffic from these PC's and what software would you > recommend? > > > >Randy > > > From ccth6600 at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 08:01:03 2020 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 22:01:03 +0800 Subject: DEC PDP-8/E wanted Message-ID: I know it is the year 2020 but nevertheless what are my chances of finding a complete and repairable DEC PDP-8/E or as a second choice a PDP-8/I ? Is there any hope or should I be just content with my SIMH based PiDP-8/I? Thanks Tom Hunter From rice43 at btinternet.com Fri Nov 20 08:07:10 2020 From: rice43 at btinternet.com (rice43) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 14:07:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DEC PDP-8/E wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <39469591.8ec1.175e5faf5b0.Webtop.102@btinternet.com> I wouldn't get your hopes up. Finding a PDP-8 of any description is going to be fairly difficult in this day and age, even a PDP-8/A. I'd assume that the majority of those that were made were either scrapped, or are now in private hands, where the owners would be unwilling to part with them. There may be someone on this list willing to part with one, but i'd honestly doubt it. You'll have better luck finding a PDP-11, but even those are getting more and more scarce. From ccth6600 at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 08:11:15 2020 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 22:11:15 +0800 Subject: Osborne 1 keyboard repair - success! Message-ID: I have managed to completely disassemble the bad Osborne 1 keyboard - remove all key mechanisms (body, plunger, main spring and actuator spring), remove the 3 layer membrane from the aluminium backing board and separate all three membrane layers (bottom, spacer and top) - all without damaging or losing any bits. I then carefully cleaned off all adhesive and other sticky gunk from all layers using various solvents including water, isopropyl alcohol and white spirit. The silver tracks remained undamaged as confirmed with a multimeter. I then carefully reassembled the 3 layers, inserted and super-glued the keyboard mechanisms in batches, testing after each batch. I did not use any glue to reattach the 3 membrane layers so they are held together only by the keyboard mechanisms with their prongs protruding through the layers into the aluminium backing plate to which the prongs are super-glued. I sealed the edges around the membrane using Kapton tape to provide protection from dust etc. The tape also attaches the membrane edges to the aluminium backing plate. All keys except the "Alpha Lock" key work perfectly. It appears that I have damaged the address line 7 on the bottom membrane. I can live without "Alpha Lock" so I did not pull everything apart again to fix this un-important key. The conclusion is that membrane keyboards can be fixed if your life depends on it. It is absolutely uneconomic though. I worked about 30 - 40 hours on the keyboard alone. Working Osborne 1s sell for between US$100 and US$300 on Ebay. Regards Tom Hunter From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Fri Nov 20 09:43:17 2020 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 09:43:17 -0600 Subject: DEC PDP-8/E wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1f15975a-edd3-268b-30bf-c0602ad62e57@thereinhardts.org> On 11/20/2020 8:01 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > I know it is the year 2020 but nevertheless what are my chances of finding > a complete and repairable DEC PDP-8/E or as a second choice a PDP-8/I ? > > Is there any hope or should I be just content with my SIMH based PiDP-8/I? > > Thanks > Tom Hunter Funny you should mention... There is a guy in Endicott, NY with a PDP-8/E possibly looking for a new home.? Posted a couple days ago on the VCF DEC Forum > Circumstances require selling off some or all the DECs [ will still have some DGs to play with ]. > One can often get a general idea of value based on prior open market (like eBay) sales but not > enough comparables out there, so would like to get a ball-park idea. > > Prefer to see them stay within VCF but because of the amount previously invested I'm not able to "give it away" > at hobby prices as I would like in an ideal world. Everything is good shape and complete, but not booted up since dry long term storage. May sell some or all of it but will try here before eBay. Here's a quick overview, informed and straightforward feedback much appreciated. > > > Complete PDP-8/E, 8k core, full flip chip/board set (have list), good condition, long dry storage. > > Complete PDP-11/05, 8k core, full flip chip/board set (have list) good condition, long dry storage. > > DECScope VT-52, good condition nothing missing or damaged from long term storage. > > RX-01 dual floppy drive, good condition nothing missing or damaged, from long storage. > > thanks for your help. > Roger in NY Be aware people are telling him his system is probably worth about $1000.? I have seen other 8's go for more on Ebay but I don't recall which model. -- John H. Reinhardt From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Nov 20 09:45:20 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 08:45:20 -0700 Subject: evil thing to ask but I need keystroke logger In-Reply-To: References: <20201120082612.DFDD44E6E6@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4884c87b-69d8-2638-daeb-abbb06b33e7a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 11/20/20 5:19 AM, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: > Most traffic coming out of PCs these days is SSL encrypted, and you > are not likely to extract meaningful data from a session. Squid proxy configured for TLS-bump-in-the-wire is also an option. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 10:46:31 2020 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 11:46:31 -0500 Subject: Systems Engineering Laboratories - SEL History In-Reply-To: References: <18531409-fac9-ac31-1941-fe5c458131e0@figureeightbrewing.com> <4f7a63dae5afa1a0ee095fcd9965ba81.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: I found some MPX -32 items this week. Rough scans here: https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipOBnMkRJvzAsOCloK4NBQM9iDoROPk-QPXBANxNg2yjsJhWlEj9Z0TN50wYKgwJkA?key=YjNyYndsLXhKZ2VYTHM3b21yNDFYNkFHa3NYbDFn I want to redo them to send to bitsavers. On Sun, Nov 8, 2020 at 10:51 PM Eric Moore wrote: > You are welcome! I have had a blast restoring and running my SEL 810A and > wanted to pull together some of what I had found, done, and helped with. It > is really just a placeholder for now until there is a critical mass of > interest. > > The SEL 810 emulators are really awesome. Kgober's can run SEL 810A basic. > The SEL 810A gui I hope to soon improve, someone is helping me with an SVG > file of the front panel to replace the picture I am currently using. > > I would like to someday acquire a 32/X or a powernode, but they are rare > as hens teeth apparently. I also would really like to find more info on the > ampex videofile. > > -Eric > > On Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 21:02 Tony Aiuto wrote: > >> Eric: >> >> Thanks for starting this. I've been doing little updates to the SEL >> wikipedia pages recently, but a dedicated site would be great. I used the >> machines heavily from 1977-1995, most of the 32/X series, as well as the >> NP1. AFAIK, I was the first person to get C++ (cfront) working under >> UTX-32. >> Alas, I didn't save any literature from the period. >> >> >>> From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Nov 20 10:55:07 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 16:55:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: DEC PDP-8/E wanted References: <1128968125.335951.1605891307204.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1128968125.335951.1605891307204@mail.yahoo.com> Go for a 8m or f? same omnibus and easer to lift as only onevnibuss panel!? - On Friday, November 20, 2020 John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: On 11/20/2020 8:01 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > I know it is the year 2020 but nevertheless what are my chances of finding > a complete and repairable DEC PDP-8/E or as a second choice a PDP-8/I ? > > Is there any hope or should I be just content with my SIMH based PiDP-8/I? > > Thanks > Tom Hunter Funny you should mention... There is a guy in Endicott, NY with a PDP-8/E possibly looking for a new home.? Posted a couple days ago on the VCF DEC Forum > Circumstances require selling off some or all the DECs [ will still have some DGs to play with ]. > One can often get a general idea of value based on prior open market (like eBay) sales but not > enough comparables out there, so would like to get a ball-park idea. > > Prefer to see them stay within VCF but because of the amount previously invested I'm not able to "give it away" > at hobby prices as I would like in an ideal world. Everything is good shape and complete, but not booted up since dry long term storage. May sell some or all of it but will try here before eBay. Here's a quick overview, informed and straightforward feedback much appreciated. > > > Complete PDP-8/E, 8k core, full flip chip/board set (have list), good condition, long dry storage. > > Complete PDP-11/05, 8k core, full flip chip/board set (have list) good condition, long dry storage. > > DECScope VT-52, good condition nothing missing or damaged from long term storage. > > RX-01 dual floppy drive, good condition nothing missing or damaged, from long storage. > > thanks for your help. > Roger in NY Be aware people are telling him his system is probably worth about $1000.? I have seen other 8's go for more on Ebay but I don't recall which model. -- John H. Reinhardt From lproven at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 10:58:07 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 17:58:07 +0100 Subject: evil thing to ask but I need keystroke logger In-Reply-To: References: <20201120082612.DFDD44E6E6@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Nov 2020 at 13:19, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: > > Have you considered asking them what they are doing? As my only offspring is only 1y old, [a] I'm not too worried and [b] it would elicit no coherent response. However I've been doing my research and I am given to believe that this leads to inaccurate information. Not exactly a citation but... https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/picture/2020/nov/14/berger-wyse-on-emojis-cartoon -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From mooreericnyc at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 11:09:49 2020 From: mooreericnyc at gmail.com (Eric Moore) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 11:09:49 -0600 Subject: Systems Engineering Laboratories - SEL History In-Reply-To: References: <18531409-fac9-ac31-1941-fe5c458131e0@figureeightbrewing.com> <4f7a63dae5afa1a0ee095fcd9965ba81.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: Oh wow! This is incredible to see, thank you! http://vtda.org/docs/computing/SEL/SEL810ProgrammersReferenceCard(810A-810B)_1Mar69.pdf Here is the equivalent 810A document I scanned. -Eric On Fri, Nov 20, 2020, 10:46 Tony Aiuto wrote: > I found some MPX -32 items this week. Rough scans here: > > > https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipOBnMkRJvzAsOCloK4NBQM9iDoROPk-QPXBANxNg2yjsJhWlEj9Z0TN50wYKgwJkA?key=YjNyYndsLXhKZ2VYTHM3b21yNDFYNkFHa3NYbDFn > > I want to redo them to send to bitsavers. > > > On Sun, Nov 8, 2020 at 10:51 PM Eric Moore wrote: > >> You are welcome! I have had a blast restoring and running my SEL 810A and >> wanted to pull together some of what I had found, done, and helped with. It >> is really just a placeholder for now until there is a critical mass of >> interest. >> >> The SEL 810 emulators are really awesome. Kgober's can run SEL 810A >> basic. The SEL 810A gui I hope to soon improve, someone is helping me with >> an SVG file of the front panel to replace the picture I am currently using. >> >> I would like to someday acquire a 32/X or a powernode, but they are rare >> as hens teeth apparently. I also would really like to find more info on the >> ampex videofile. >> >> -Eric >> >> On Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 21:02 Tony Aiuto wrote: >> >>> Eric: >>> >>> Thanks for starting this. I've been doing little updates to the SEL >>> wikipedia pages recently, but a dedicated site would be great. I used the >>> machines heavily from 1977-1995, most of the 32/X series, as well as the >>> NP1. AFAIK, I was the first person to get C++ (cfront) working under >>> UTX-32. >>> Alas, I didn't save any literature from the period. >>> >>> >>>> From poc at pocnet.net Fri Nov 20 11:36:49 2020 From: poc at pocnet.net (Patrik Schindler) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 18:36:49 +0100 Subject: Osborne 1 keyboard repair - success! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <121080C8-F523-45FF-9A7D-9A228093119D@pocnet.net> Hello Tom, Am 20.11.2020 um 15:11 schrieb Tom Hunter via cctalk : > I have managed to completely disassemble the bad Osborne 1 keyboard Congrats on that! > The silver tracks remained undamaged as confirmed with a multimeter. Very wise to check this while all is disassembled. > I then carefully reassembled the 3 layers, inserted and super-glued the keyboard mechanisms in batches, testing after each batch. When using super-glue, will this possibly negatively affect the ability to disassemble the keyboard again? As far as I?m aware, the prongs are most often just pressed flat with a hot iron to melt and thus held in place. > I did not use any glue to reattach the 3 membrane layers so they are held together only by the keyboard mechanisms with their prongs protruding through the layers into the aluminium backing plate to which the prongs are super-glued. Very good idea! > The conclusion is that membrane keyboards can be fixed if your life depends on it. It is absolutely uneconomic though. I worked about 30 - 40 hours on the keyboard alone. Working Osborne 1s sell for between US$100 and US$300 on Ebay. Well, with some routine you can become an expert and do that repair in 1-2 hours. All membrane keyboards are very much alike. While I?m truly appalled to do this for a living, I?m not frightened about doing this anymore. ;-) :wq! PoC From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 11:54:31 2020 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 12:54:31 -0500 Subject: Systems Engineering Laboratories - SEL History In-Reply-To: References: <18531409-fac9-ac31-1941-fe5c458131e0@figureeightbrewing.com> <4f7a63dae5afa1a0ee095fcd9965ba81.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: Cool. Same shade of blue. On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 12:10 PM Eric Moore wrote: > Oh wow! This is incredible to see, thank you! > > > http://vtda.org/docs/computing/SEL/SEL810ProgrammersReferenceCard(810A-810B)_1Mar69.pdf > > Here is the equivalent 810A document I scanned. > > -Eric > > On Fri, Nov 20, 2020, 10:46 Tony Aiuto wrote: > >> I found some MPX -32 items this week. Rough scans here: >> >> >> https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipOBnMkRJvzAsOCloK4NBQM9iDoROPk-QPXBANxNg2yjsJhWlEj9Z0TN50wYKgwJkA?key=YjNyYndsLXhKZ2VYTHM3b21yNDFYNkFHa3NYbDFn >> >> I want to redo them to send to bitsavers. >> >> >> On Sun, Nov 8, 2020 at 10:51 PM Eric Moore >> wrote: >> >>> You are welcome! I have had a blast restoring and running my SEL 810A >>> and wanted to pull together some of what I had found, done, and helped >>> with. It is really just a placeholder for now until there is a critical >>> mass of interest. >>> >>> The SEL 810 emulators are really awesome. Kgober's can run SEL 810A >>> basic. The SEL 810A gui I hope to soon improve, someone is helping me with >>> an SVG file of the front panel to replace the picture I am currently using. >>> >>> I would like to someday acquire a 32/X or a powernode, but they are rare >>> as hens teeth apparently. I also would really like to find more info on the >>> ampex videofile. >>> >>> -Eric >>> >>> On Sun, Nov 8, 2020, 21:02 Tony Aiuto wrote: >>> >>>> Eric: >>>> >>>> Thanks for starting this. I've been doing little updates to the SEL >>>> wikipedia pages recently, but a dedicated site would be great. I used the >>>> machines heavily from 1977-1995, most of the 32/X series, as well as the >>>> NP1. AFAIK, I was the first person to get C++ (cfront) working under >>>> UTX-32. >>>> Alas, I didn't save any literature from the period. >>>> >>>> >>>>> From rollerton at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 11:56:09 2020 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 10:56:09 -0700 Subject: DEC PDP-8/E wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How close to Tucson are you located or willing to haul? On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 7:01 AM Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > I know it is the year 2020 but nevertheless what are my chances of finding > a complete and repairable DEC PDP-8/E or as a second choice a PDP-8/I ? > > Is there any hope or should I be just content with my SIMH based PiDP-8/I? > > Thanks > Tom Hunter > From ccth6600 at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 11:59:25 2020 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 01:59:25 +0800 Subject: Osborne 1 keyboard repair - success! In-Reply-To: <121080C8-F523-45FF-9A7D-9A228093119D@pocnet.net> References: <121080C8-F523-45FF-9A7D-9A228093119D@pocnet.net> Message-ID: Hi Patrik, As to the superglue - it was the only option because the prongs are just melted flat. To get the key mechanism out or off I had to scrape all the melted plastic off. I then subsequently re-attach the key mechanism to the aluminium backing board by applying a tiny drop of superglue between what was left of each prong and the associated hole in the aluminium backing plate. The key mechanisms can be pushed out again with moderate effort if it is ever necessary again. Best regards Tom Hunter On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 1:36 AM Patrik Schindler via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hello Tom, > > Am 20.11.2020 um 15:11 schrieb Tom Hunter via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org>: > > > I have managed to completely disassemble the bad Osborne 1 keyboard > > Congrats on that! > > > The silver tracks remained undamaged as confirmed with a multimeter. > > Very wise to check this while all is disassembled. > > > I then carefully reassembled the 3 layers, inserted and super-glued the > keyboard mechanisms in batches, testing after each batch. > > When using super-glue, will this possibly negatively affect the ability to > disassemble the keyboard again? As far as I?m aware, the prongs are most > often just pressed flat with a hot iron to melt and thus held in place. > > > I did not use any glue to reattach the 3 membrane layers so they are > held together only by the keyboard mechanisms with their prongs protruding > through the layers into the aluminium backing plate to which the prongs are > super-glued. > > Very good idea! > > > The conclusion is that membrane keyboards can be fixed if your life > depends on it. It is absolutely uneconomic though. I worked about 30 - 40 > hours on the keyboard alone. Working Osborne 1s sell for between US$100 and > US$300 on Ebay. > > Well, with some routine you can become an expert and do that repair in 1-2 > hours. All membrane keyboards are very much alike. While I?m truly appalled > to do this for a living, I?m not frightened about doing this anymore. ;-) > > :wq! PoC > > From poc at pocnet.net Fri Nov 20 12:13:55 2020 From: poc at pocnet.net (Patrik Schindler) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 19:13:55 +0100 Subject: Crypto Ancienne: TLS for the Internet of Old Things In-Reply-To: <202011161834.0AGIYd2T6488266@floodgap.com> References: <202011161834.0AGIYd2T6488266@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4CDDF39B-A52A-4705-AA8B-5D07EC1C27D1@pocnet.net> Hello Cameron, Am 16.11.2020 um 19:34 schrieb Cameron Kaiser via cctalk : > If you have an older pre-C99 system, I've backported a TLS 1.2 library to gcc versions as early as 2.5 as long as it has 64-bit ints (long long, usually) and stdarg.h. Thanks for that! I?ll try to compile this in OS/400 V4R5 in the upcoming xmas holidays. Unfortunately, at least one line in the files is very long, so I can?t easily put them to QSYS.LIB. This is not mandatory, but I like it that way. :wq! PoC From cz at alembic.crystel.com Fri Nov 20 12:20:30 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 13:20:30 -0500 Subject: DEC PDP-8/E wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Widen your search to pdp8/L's. I still have the pair of them I bought a few years back, once the 11/24 is in service I'll start on them... C On 11/20/2020 9:01 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > I know it is the year 2020 but nevertheless what are my chances of finding > a complete and repairable DEC PDP-8/E or as a second choice a PDP-8/I ? > > Is there any hope or should I be just content with my SIMH based PiDP-8/I? > > Thanks > Tom Hunter > From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Nov 20 12:45:41 2020 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 10:45:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Crypto Ancienne: TLS for the Internet of Old Things In-Reply-To: <4CDDF39B-A52A-4705-AA8B-5D07EC1C27D1@pocnet.net> from Patrik Schindler via cctalk at "Nov 20, 20 07:13:55 pm" Message-ID: <202011201845.0AKIjfuI13893824@floodgap.com> > Unfortunately, at least one line in the files is very long, so I can't > easily put them to QSYS.LIB. This is not mandatory, but I like it that way. How so? If it's an easy fix to split up the line or something, no biggie. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- When you don't know what you're doing, do it neatly. ----------------------- From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 14:32:55 2020 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 15:32:55 -0500 Subject: Crypto Ancienne: TLS for the Internet of Old Things In-Reply-To: <202011201845.0AKIjfuI13893824@floodgap.com> References: <4CDDF39B-A52A-4705-AA8B-5D07EC1C27D1@pocnet.net> <202011201845.0AKIjfuI13893824@floodgap.com> Message-ID: Nice going! Next on wish list: openssh for 2.9BSD ;) > From abuse at cabal.org.uk Fri Nov 20 15:56:12 2020 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 22:56:12 +0100 Subject: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <20201120215612.GA29231@mooli.org.uk> On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 02:54:27PM +0100, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: >> Five MyBooks bought 18 months ago had debranded He8 disks in there: very nice. >> The three Elements a few months back have (non-SMR) WD Reds in them, which is >> OK. Three more are supposedly turning up tomorrow. > Oh blast, I wish I had known then... I've now had time to spin up the server and query all six of these Elements. They are model number WD80EDAZ-11TA3A0, i.e. 7200RPM air-filled Reds. Since you'd normally have to get a Red Pro to guarantee that spec, and those are currently around ?260, I'm obviously quite chuffed that I got these for ?115-?135 a pop even if they're not the holy grail of He8s. I'm getting 1.03GB/s (or 986MiB/s if you have 10.07 fingers) across the six spindles from copying some random data onto the zpool and then doing a scrub: pool: test state: ONLINE scan: scrub in progress since Fri Nov 20 22:43:28 2020 121G scanned at 1.92G/s, 60.7G issued at 986M/s, 121G total 0B repaired, 50.23% done, 0 days 00:01:02 to go That's faster than the SSDs used for the boot volume. >> It also turns out that ?1 ? ?1 ? $1. > Indeed so. Sadly, most Merkins don't know this and wail about not > understanding Weird Forrin Money. What's further distorting prices on some things I import from Germany is that they have a temporary VAT reduction from 19% to 16% due to the plague, but unsurprisingly this made no difference to the VAT-inclusive prices offered to consumers. However, the Dutch VAT rate remained at 21% and since I have to pay the difference when importing so what's actually happened is that Germany has caused a 3% price increase. In some cases its actually 5% because some German sellers used to happily charge the same VAT-inclusive prices to Dutch and German consumers and eat the 2% difference, but 5% is just too much for them to absorb so they charge the "proper" price. Since the Czech Republic also has 21% VAT, do you have this experience too? From abuse at cabal.org.uk Fri Nov 20 16:46:57 2020 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 23:46:57 +0100 Subject: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <20201120224657.GB29231@mooli.org.uk> On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 09:36:00AM -0500, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: [...] >>> It also turns out that ?1 ? ?1 ? $1. > Close, but no cigar. I just bought something from Europe 3 days ago. This rule of thumb only applies to stuff imported from the USA to Europe, or from anywhere to the UK. It also only applies to prices quoted to consumers. > Exchange rate: $ 1 USD = ? 0.8111 EUR Since the actual rate has been about ?0.845 for a few months now, I guess your bank charges 4% over the mid-market rate. That seems a bit high. However, as you surely know, the EU applies tarrifs on imports, and individual countries also charge consumers VAT. Tariffs tend to be fairly nominal or zero unless there's a trade war going on, whereas VAT varies between 15% and 25%. So if I import a $100 widget, even if it has a zero tariff, I still get to pay 21% Dutch VAT which brings it to $121, or ?102. Therefore $1 ? ?1. That same $100 widget imported into the UK becomes $120 due to the 20% VAT rate, which comes to ?90, but the UK has its own self-inflicted problems which cause importers loads of extra costs and ?100 is easily believable. If I take off my consumer hat and put on my businessman hat, I can import stuff without paying VAT and then it is just the $100, ?84.50, or ?75 suggested by the exchange rate. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Nov 20 20:09:52 2020 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 02:09:52 +0000 Subject: Osborne 1 keyboard repair - success! In-Reply-To: References: <121080C8-F523-45FF-9A7D-9A228093119D@pocnet.net> Message-ID: <5382ae9c-7d22-52a3-d7f4-175b0110d385@dunnington.plus.com> On 20/11/2020 17:59, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > Hi Patrik, > > As to the superglue - it was the only option because the prongs are just > melted flat. To get the key mechanism out or off I had to scrape all the > melted plastic off. I then subsequently re-attach the key mechanism to the > aluminium backing board by applying a tiny drop of superglue between what > was left of each prong and the associated hole in the aluminium backing > plate. The key mechanisms can be pushed out again with moderate effort if > it is ever necessary again. Another way to do this is, or to repair any heat-staked plastic, is to use a cheap 3D printing pen with the sample ABS or even PLA filament they usually come with. Lurid colours are optional with this technique ;-) -- Pete Pete Turnbull From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Nov 20 20:05:26 2020 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 02:05:26 +0000 Subject: DEC PDP-8/E wanted In-Reply-To: <1128968125.335951.1605891307204@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1128968125.335951.1605891307204.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1128968125.335951.1605891307204@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1b304c08-cac6-4568-8039-c087f47e28a5@dunnington.plus.com> On 20/11/2020 16:55, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > Go for a 8m or f? same omnibus and easer to lift as only onevnibuss panel!? - Also a switchmode PSU which is much lighter than the -8/E linear supply. But the -8/M normally has the minimal panel with the power key and minimal toggle switches. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Nov 20 20:18:34 2020 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 18:18:34 -0800 Subject: ISO: Keronix Omnibus 8K "E1" memory schematics / technical docs Message-ID: Hey all -- Got a nice 8KW omnibus core memory board here, designated the "E1" from Keronix, that almost works except that bit 1 is off in the weeds somewhere. Not a lot of information out there on Keronix hardware, anyone have any docs? The board came with a sheet describing the addressing configuration, but that's it. Thanks as always, Josh From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Nov 21 00:30:14 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 06:30:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: DEC PDP-8/E wanted References: <1249119205.135381.1605940214403.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1249119205.135381.1605940214403@mail.yahoo.com> All the 8 m and f I had when in comp. Biz in the 80s had the full front panel...?? guess I lucked out... Now,8a. Could cone either way into my shop though.... On Friday, November 20, 2020 Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: On 20/11/2020 16:55, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > Go for a 8m or f? same omnibus and easer to lift as only onevnibuss panel!? - Also a switchmode PSU which is much lighter than the -8/E linear supply. But the -8/M normally has the minimal panel with the power key and minimal toggle switches. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sat Nov 21 02:36:05 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 00:36:05 -0800 Subject: ISO: Keronix Omnibus 8K "E1" memory schematics / technical docs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <04d083ae-0cbe-10d2-0ac2-1a3e228ea480@jwsss.com> Keronix was a medium sized operation making OEM core stacks and sometimes would take in the whole job and engineer the host board for their product. i know there are Microdata and some other Orange County made minis with Keronix stacks I've seen.? I suspect unless some culprit such as myself who worked at the company saved the data and the like it vanished into the engineering archives of the company and down a rathole.? I don't know of much other for them. Microdata also had Ampex approach the company and make full core boards for instance as well.? The market for core was haphazard at best.? And I don't know of any instance of cooperation to define any standards where documentation would have gone. I hope you find something. BTW I have a couple of 4K Micro 800 boards that I recall were Keronix. thanks jim On 11/20/2020 6:18 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > Hey all -- > > Got a nice 8KW omnibus core memory board here, designated the "E1" from > Keronix, that almost works except that bit 1 is off in the weeds > somewhere. Not a lot of information out there on Keronix hardware, anyone > have any docs? The board came with a sheet describing the addressing > configuration, but that's it. > > Thanks as always, > Josh > From mechanic_2 at charter.net Sat Nov 21 04:29:58 2020 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 04:29:58 -0600 Subject: FS: Tek scope, HP LA, and Electronic components! In-Reply-To: <7KT3.1605952910247668036.X3TC@groups.io> References: <7KT3.1605952910247668036.X3TC@groups.io> Message-ID: <5FB8EC26.6060909@charter.net> Hello all, I have probably developed cancer. I can't get in for treatment. I have enough lumps in my body that it probably wouldn't make a difference. So more than likely I am dying. I am asking for everyone's help. I am selling off all of my processions and simplifying my life before I die. I don't want to see this stuff end up in the landfill. Please help out a dying old man? I have a Tektronix 465B Scope with four probes for sale. A HP 16700A LA with 5 16555D LA cards and all of the cables. There is a 16701B Expansion box and the interconnect cable. There is an external SCSI drive box with a CD rom and a ST318417N drive in it. There are a bunch of micro probes for the LA. A monitor, keyboard, mouse, manuals, and CDs. I also have a very large collection of electronic components in over 40 storage cabinets. There are also a lot of books on electronics. I am asking $250 plus the shipping on the scope. This shipping won't be cheap. $500 plus shipping for the LA. Again shipping will be very expensive. It will take five boxes to ship the LA. I will deliver the scope and/or LA to any where in the lower 48 for the cost of shipping. $500 for the components, cabinets, and books. Shipping is not possible. So it it have to be local pick up. Bring a truck and trailer. PP F&F, Cashiers Check, or Postal Money Order. Please contact me off list. GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! Happy Thanksgiving! From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Nov 21 09:07:17 2020 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 07:07:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Osborne 1 keyboard repair - success! In-Reply-To: <5382ae9c-7d22-52a3-d7f4-175b0110d385@dunnington.plus.com> References: <121080C8-F523-45FF-9A7D-9A228093119D@pocnet.net> <5382ae9c-7d22-52a3-d7f4-175b0110d385@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Nov 2020, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: > On 20/11/2020 17:59, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: >> Hi Patrik, >> >> As to the superglue - it was the only option because the prongs are just >> melted flat. To get the key mechanism out or off I had to scrape all the >> melted plastic off. I then subsequently re-attach the key mechanism to the >> aluminium backing board by applying a tiny drop of superglue between what >> was left of each prong and the associated hole in the aluminium backing >> plate. The key mechanisms can be pushed out again with moderate effort if >> it is ever necessary again. > > Another way to do this is, or to repair any heat-staked plastic, is to use a > cheap 3D printing pen with the sample ABS or even PLA filament they usually > come with. > Now this is the first actual sane use of one of those things I've seen! Excellent idea! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From mechanic_2 at charter.net Sat Nov 21 10:59:29 2020 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 10:59:29 -0600 Subject: FS: Tek scope, HP LA, and Electronic components! In-Reply-To: <5FB8EC26.6060909@charter.net> References: <7KT3.1605952910247668036.X3TC@groups.io> <5FB8EC26.6060909@charter.net> Message-ID: <5FB94771.5090104@charter.net> Hello all, I forgot to put in that I live in Reedsburg, WI 53959 which is near the WI Dells. Sorry about that! GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 11/21/2020 4:29 AM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: > Hello all, > I have probably developed cancer. I can't get in for treatment. I > have enough lumps in my body that it probably wouldn't make a > difference. So more than likely I am dying. I am asking for everyone's > help. I am selling off all of my processions and simplifying my life > before I die. I don't want to see this stuff end up in the landfill. > Please help out a dying old man? > I have a Tektronix 465B Scope with four probes for sale. A HP > 16700A LA with 5 16555D LA cards and all of the cables. There is a > 16701B Expansion box and the interconnect cable. There is an external > SCSI drive box with a CD rom and a ST318417N drive in it. There are a > bunch of micro probes for the LA. A monitor, keyboard, mouse, manuals, > and CDs. I also have a very large collection of electronic components > in over 40 storage cabinets. There are also a lot of books on > electronics. > I am asking $250 plus the shipping on the scope. This shipping > won't be cheap. $500 plus shipping for the LA. Again shipping will be > very expensive. It will take five boxes to ship the LA. I will deliver > the scope and/or LA to any where in the lower 48 for the cost of > shipping. $500 for the components, cabinets, and books. Shipping is > not possible. So it it have to be local pick up. Bring a truck and > trailer. > PP F&F, Cashiers Check, or Postal Money Order. Please contact me > off list. > GOD Bless and Thanks, > rich! > Happy Thanksgiving! > From mechanic_2 at charter.net Sat Nov 21 11:00:00 2020 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 11:00:00 -0600 Subject: [TekScopes] FS: Tek scope, HP LA, and Electronic components! In-Reply-To: <16497F3395FAB4D0.21019@groups.io> References: <7KT3.1605952910247668036.X3TC@groups.io> <16497F3395FAB4D0.21019@groups.io> Message-ID: <5FB94790.5050305@charter.net> Hello all, I forgot to put in that I live in Reedsburg, WI 53959 which is near the WI Dells. Sorry about that! GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 11/21/2020 4:29 AM, Richard R. Pope wrote: > Hello all, > I have probably developed cancer. I can't get in for treatment. I > have enough lumps in my body that it probably wouldn't make a > difference. So more than likely I am dying. I am asking for everyone's > help. I am selling off all of my processions and simplifying my life > before I die. I don't want to see this stuff end up in the landfill. > Please help out a dying old man? > I have a Tektronix 465B Scope with four probes for sale. A HP > 16700A LA with 5 16555D LA cards and all of the cables. There is a > 16701B Expansion box and the interconnect cable. There is an external > SCSI drive box with a CD rom and a ST318417N drive in it. There are a > bunch of micro probes for the LA. A monitor, keyboard, mouse, manuals, > and CDs. I also have a very large collection of electronic components > in over 40 storage cabinets. There are also a lot of books on > electronics. > I am asking $250 plus the shipping on the scope. This shipping > won't be cheap. $500 plus shipping for the LA. Again shipping will be > very expensive. It will take five boxes to ship the LA. I will deliver > the scope and/or LA to any where in the lower 48 for the cost of > shipping. $500 for the components, cabinets, and books. Shipping is > not possible. So it it have to be local pick up. Bring a truck and > trailer. > PP F&F, Cashiers Check, or Postal Money Order. Please contact me > off list. > GOD Bless and Thanks, > rich! > Happy Thanksgiving! > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. > You automatically follow any topics you start or reply to. > View/Reply Online (#173490): https://groups.io/g/TekScopes/message/173490 > Unfollow This Topic: https://groups.io/unft/78408890/89555 > Group Owner: TekScopes+owner at groups.io > Unsubscribe: > https://groups.io/g/TekScopes/leave/1125693/1414938750/xyzzy > [mechanic_2 at charter.net] > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > > From cube1 at charter.net Sat Nov 21 15:23:26 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 15:23:26 -0600 Subject: FS: Tek scope, HP LA, and Electronic components! In-Reply-To: <5FB94771.5090104@charter.net> References: <7KT3.1605952910247668036.X3TC@groups.io> <5FB8EC26.6060909@charter.net> <5FB94771.5090104@charter.net> Message-ID: Oh, man...... I am really sorry to hear that. I think we have corresponded before. But, if you have insurance, I would encourage you to at least see a Doctor somewhere. I had a brother in law who got 2 years of pretty good quality of life with Keytruda before succumbing to a blood infection (at least we haven't heard it was COVID). There was a time I would have killed for that LA (I have a couple of 1650's and a 1672), but I just don't have the need for bench space for it. It's a shame, because you are so close to Madison (my mom grew up in Hillsboro - a Hagenah - my grandfather was Dutch Hagenah (the current Dutch, slightly younger than I am, was sometimes referred to as "little Dutch".) JRJ On 11/21/2020 10:59 AM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: > Hello all, > ??? I forgot to put in that I live in Reedsburg, WI 53959 which is near > the WI Dells. Sorry about that! > GOD Bless and Thanks, > rich! > > On 11/21/2020 4:29 AM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: >> Hello all, >> ??? I have probably developed cancer. I can't get in for treatment. I >> have enough lumps in my body that it probably wouldn't make a >> difference. So more than likely I am dying. I am asking for everyone's >> help. I am selling off all of my processions and simplifying my life >> before I die. I don't want to see this stuff end up in the landfill. >> Please help out a dying old man? >> ??? I have a Tektronix 465B Scope with four probes for sale. A HP >> 16700A LA with 5 16555D LA cards and all of the cables. There is a >> 16701B Expansion box and the interconnect cable. There is an external >> SCSI drive box with a CD rom and a ST318417N drive in it. There are a >> bunch of micro probes for the LA. A monitor, keyboard, mouse, manuals, >> and CDs. I also have a very large collection of electronic components >> in over 40 storage cabinets. There are also a lot of books on >> electronics. >> ??? I am asking $250 plus the shipping on the scope. This shipping >> won't be cheap. $500 plus shipping for the LA. Again shipping will be >> very expensive. It will take five boxes to ship the LA. I will deliver >> the scope and/or LA to any where in the lower 48 for the cost of >> shipping. $500 for the components, cabinets, and books. Shipping is >> not possible. So it it have to be local pick up. Bring a truck and >> trailer. >> ??? PP F&F, Cashiers Check, or Postal Money Order. Please contact me >> off list. >> GOD Bless and Thanks, >> rich! >> Happy Thanksgiving! >> > From mechanic_2 at charter.net Sat Nov 21 15:30:57 2020 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 15:30:57 -0600 Subject: FS: Tek scope, HP LA, and Electronic components! In-Reply-To: References: <7KT3.1605952910247668036.X3TC@groups.io> <5FB8EC26.6060909@charter.net> <5FB94771.5090104@charter.net> Message-ID: <5FB98711.3000909@charter.net> Jay, I appreciate it. I can't get in for medical care. I became disabled due to the Seasonal Flu and I am unable to wear a mask. Because of that I can't enter to get the care that i need. They have sentenced me to death because of something that just isn't dangerous and something that is not even airborne. The LA is probably sold. I am just waiting on confirmation. What about my electronic components and storage cabinets? If I die before I sell this stuff my landlord will throw it in the dumpster. GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! Happy Thanksgiving! On 11/21/2020 3:23 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > Oh, man...... I am really sorry to hear that. I think we have > corresponded before. > > But, if you have insurance, I would encourage you to at least see a > Doctor somewhere. I had a brother in law who got 2 years of pretty good > quality of life with Keytruda before succumbing to a blood infection (at > least we haven't heard it was COVID). > > There was a time I would have killed for that LA (I have a couple of > 1650's and a 1672), but I just don't have the need for bench space for > it. It's a shame, because you are so close to Madison (my mom grew up in > Hillsboro - a Hagenah - my grandfather was Dutch Hagenah (the current > Dutch, slightly younger than I am, was sometimes referred to as "little > Dutch".) > > JRJ > > On 11/21/2020 10:59 AM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: >> Hello all, >> I forgot to put in that I live in Reedsburg, WI 53959 which is near >> the WI Dells. Sorry about that! >> GOD Bless and Thanks, >> rich! >> >> On 11/21/2020 4:29 AM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: >>> Hello all, >>> I have probably developed cancer. I can't get in for treatment. I >>> have enough lumps in my body that it probably wouldn't make a >>> difference. So more than likely I am dying. I am asking for everyone's >>> help. I am selling off all of my processions and simplifying my life >>> before I die. I don't want to see this stuff end up in the landfill. >>> Please help out a dying old man? >>> I have a Tektronix 465B Scope with four probes for sale. A HP >>> 16700A LA with 5 16555D LA cards and all of the cables. There is a >>> 16701B Expansion box and the interconnect cable. There is an external >>> SCSI drive box with a CD rom and a ST318417N drive in it. There are a >>> bunch of micro probes for the LA. A monitor, keyboard, mouse, manuals, >>> and CDs. I also have a very large collection of electronic components >>> in over 40 storage cabinets. There are also a lot of books on >>> electronics. >>> I am asking $250 plus the shipping on the scope. This shipping >>> won't be cheap. $500 plus shipping for the LA. Again shipping will be >>> very expensive. It will take five boxes to ship the LA. I will deliver >>> the scope and/or LA to any where in the lower 48 for the cost of >>> shipping. $500 for the components, cabinets, and books. Shipping is >>> not possible. So it it have to be local pick up. Bring a truck and >>> trailer. >>> PP F&F, Cashiers Check, or Postal Money Order. Please contact me >>> off list. >>> GOD Bless and Thanks, >>> rich! >>> Happy Thanksgiving! >>> From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Sat Nov 21 20:21:43 2020 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 21:21:43 -0500 Subject: WIN 1.0 Message-ID: A milestone in 'classic' computing happened Nov. 20, 1985 with the release of Windows 1.0: A GUI sitting on MS-DOS. Text-based input on it's way out! Happy computing all. Murray ? Virus-free. www.avg.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> From ccth6600 at gmail.com Sat Nov 21 23:34:47 2020 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 13:34:47 +0800 Subject: DEC PDP-8/E wanted In-Reply-To: <1f15975a-edd3-268b-30bf-c0602ad62e57@thereinhardts.org> References: <1f15975a-edd3-268b-30bf-c0602ad62e57@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: Hi John, If you see any other PDP-8/E,F,L,I for sale could you please keep me in mind and let me know? Thanks and best regards Tom Hunter On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 11:43 PM John H. Reinhardt via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 11/20/2020 8:01 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > I know it is the year 2020 but nevertheless what are my chances of > finding > > a complete and repairable DEC PDP-8/E or as a second choice a PDP-8/I ? > > > > Is there any hope or should I be just content with my SIMH based > PiDP-8/I? > > > > Thanks > > Tom Hunter > Funny you should mention... > > There is a guy in Endicott, NY with a PDP-8/E possibly looking for a new > home. Posted a couple days ago on the VCF DEC Forum > < > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?77602-DEC-de-accession-value-estimates-sought&p=643984#post643984 > > > > > Circumstances require selling off some or all the DECs [ will still have > some DGs to play with ]. > > One can often get a general idea of value based on prior open market > (like eBay) sales but not > > enough comparables out there, so would like to get a ball-park idea. > > > > Prefer to see them stay within VCF but because of the amount previously > invested I'm not able to "give it away" > > at hobby prices as I would like in an ideal world. Everything is good > shape and complete, but not booted up since dry long term storage. May sell > some or all of it but will try here before eBay. Here's a quick overview, > informed and straightforward feedback much appreciated. > > > > > Complete PDP-8/E, 8k core, full flip chip/board set (have list), good > condition, long dry storage. > > > Complete PDP-11/05, 8k core, full flip chip/board set (have list) good > condition, long dry storage. > > > DECScope VT-52, good condition nothing missing or damaged from long > term storage. > > > RX-01 dual floppy drive, good condition nothing missing or damaged, > from long storage. > > > > thanks for your help. > > Roger in NY > > Be aware people are telling him his system is probably worth about $1000. > I have seen other 8's go for more on Ebay but I don't recall which model. > > -- > > John H. Reinhardt > > From info at reactivemicro.com Tue Nov 17 00:43:00 2020 From: info at reactivemicro.com (Henry S. Courbis) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 22:43:00 -0800 Subject: [vcf-midatlantic] neat VGA tester In-Reply-To: References: <465225b0b5cf45fcb3f4406c87c822e8@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Message-ID: Or support 15khz testing. Henry S. Courbis Office Toll Free: (800) REACTIVE (732-2848) Office/Mobile Direct: (302) 298-0234 www.ReActiveMicro.com - Sales, Support, and News, Our Headquarters on the Internet ReActiveMicro.com/wiki - Support, Software, Manuals, and History. Create your own page today! Facebook.com/reactivemicrousa - Our Social Media Outlet and Support On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 5:27 PM Jason Perkins via vcf-midatlantic < vcf-midatlantic at lists.vcfed.org> wrote: > Interesting little device! Too bad it doesn?t do color bars in 640x480, > only 800x600. > > On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 7:40 AM W2HX via vcf-midatlantic < > vcf-midatlantic at lists.vcfed.org> wrote: > > > For you folks that work on machines with VGA monitors. > > > > https://www.mpja.com/11-16-20.asp?r=344017&s=2 > > > > I don't own one but it seemed interesting enough to pass on. > > > > 73 Eugene W2HX > > > > > > > > -- > Jason Perkins 313 355 0085 Sent from my iPhone > From trash80 at internode.on.net Tue Nov 17 18:56:55 2020 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 11:56:55 +1100 Subject: LCD screen repair Message-ID: <165c01d6bd45$b6719b20$2354d160$@internode.on.net> Hi folks - be grateful for a little advice please. Some time I rescued an Apple Power Mac G4 (it's a beautiful machine, not that I'm a big Mac person, and I can't believe someone was going to toss it) - powers up OK but looks like it just needs a new battery as its not holding date and time. Anyway the other day I was cleaning up in my collection facility and dropped the monitor - I wasn't quick enough to save it from hitting a metal object just under the bench and as chance would have it of course this happened screen side. Its put a gouge in the surface of the screen - link to photos below. http://koken.advancedimaging.com.au/index.php?/albums/apple-screen/ Now I believe it is possibly repairable but the are many kits and methods out the all claiming some success. I figure I'm only going to get one shot at this so would appreciate any advice from anyone who may have effected such a repair before. Thank you. Kevin Parker From rice43 at btinternet.com Wed Nov 18 03:53:24 2020 From: rice43 at btinternet.com (rice43) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 09:53:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: LCD screen repair In-Reply-To: <165c01d6bd45$b6719b20$2354d160$@internode.on.net> References: <165c01d6bd45$b6719b20$2354d160$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <68554555.4604.175dac5e68a.Webtop.84@btinternet.com> Whilst i have no experience replacing Apple G4 displays, LCD replacement in general is fairly easy. For starters, you're 100% going to need a new panel, preferably a like-for-like, though it's entirely possible you could stick in a different model if it's using LVDS connections inside. It's just a case of disassembling, swapping the screen, and reassembling in the reverse order. To be honest, it's probably cheaper just to buy a complete display, instead of replacing the LCD screen. There won't be much price difference between the LCD panel and a complete display. From francis.massen at gmail.com Thu Nov 19 09:18:30 2020 From: francis.massen at gmail.com (Francis Massen) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2020 15:18:30 +0000 Subject: XpressWare v8.1 or above (software for Tektronix X11 terminals) Message-ID: Hello, I have the NCDbridge v. 4.0 software, and could send you a copy. I am still looking for XpressWare, unable to find. I use for host a Raspberry Pi with TFTP (can not get NSF to connect..), the Tektronix kernel (os.350) and other stuff is in /opt/tekxp/boot on the host. Best regards, Francis Massen https.//computarium.lcd.lu From davemaho at rcn.com Fri Nov 20 08:32:15 2020 From: davemaho at rcn.com (davemaho) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 09:32:15 -0500 Subject: DEC PDP-8/E wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Your chances are excellent, depending on your budget. I have two ?8e?s, a straight 8, and a vt270. Each has issues: the 270 won?t boot, nor will the 8e?s (they have 8? floppies either rx02 or rx01?s, vt100/ 101?s, asr 33,35, and 32?s), and the straight 8 comes up with all zeros every eighth memory address location. The asr33 is DEC modified.. Best regards, Dave Mahoney Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 20, 2020, at 9:01 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > ?I know it is the year 2020 but nevertheless what are my chances of finding > a complete and repairable DEC PDP-8/E or as a second choice a PDP-8/I ? > > Is there any hope or should I be just content with my SIMH based PiDP-8/I? > > Thanks > Tom Hunter From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Fri Nov 20 12:08:23 2020 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2020 12:08:23 -0600 Subject: DEC PDP-8/E wanted In-Reply-To: <1128968125.335951.1605891307204@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1128968125.335951.1605891307204.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1128968125.335951.1605891307204@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3996d2e1-a3cc-228a-0baa-478382338e48@figureeightbrewing.com> For those interested in a PDP-8 system but don't want the large size/weight and maintenance issues, I built the full set of Spare Time Gizmos SBC6120 (integrated PDP-8), FP6120 (front panel for SBC6120) and IOB6120 (Jim Kearney's multi-function companion board) a number of years ago and would be willing to part with them for a reasonable offer. Here are related links: http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/SBC6120_Builders.htm https://www.grc.com/pdp-8/yourown-sbc.htm https://www.jkearney.com/sbc6120/iob6120.htm --tom On 11/20/20 10:55 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > Go for a 8m or f? same omnibus and easer to lift as only onevnibuss panel!? - > On Friday, November 20, 2020 John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: > On 11/20/2020 8:01 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: >> I know it is the year 2020 but nevertheless what are my chances of finding >> a complete and repairable DEC PDP-8/E or as a second choice a PDP-8/I ? >> >> Is there any hope or should I be just content with my SIMH based PiDP-8/I? >> >> Thanks >> Tom Hunter > Funny you should mention... > > There is a guy in Endicott, NY with a PDP-8/E possibly looking for a new home.? Posted a couple days ago on the VCF DEC Forum > > >> Circumstances require selling off some or all the DECs [ will still have some DGs to play with ]. >> One can often get a general idea of value based on prior open market (like eBay) sales but not >> enough comparables out there, so would like to get a ball-park idea. >> >> Prefer to see them stay within VCF but because of the amount previously invested I'm not able to "give it away" >> at hobby prices as I would like in an ideal world. Everything is good shape and complete, but not booted up since dry long term storage. May sell some or all of it but will try here before eBay. Here's a quick overview, informed and straightforward feedback much appreciated. >> >>> Complete PDP-8/E, 8k core, full flip chip/board set (have list), good condition, long dry storage. >>> Complete PDP-11/05, 8k core, full flip chip/board set (have list) good condition, long dry storage. >>> DECScope VT-52, good condition nothing missing or damaged from long term storage. >>> RX-01 dual floppy drive, good condition nothing missing or damaged, from long storage. >> thanks for your help. >> Roger in NY > Be aware people are telling him his system is probably worth about $1000.? I have seen other 8's go for more on Ebay but I don't recall which model. > From abuse at cabal.org.uk Sun Nov 22 05:07:42 2020 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 12:07:42 +0100 Subject: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: <00c901d6bcc4$cdead720$69c08560$@tin.it> References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> <00c901d6bcc4$cdead720$69c08560$@tin.it> Message-ID: <20201122110742.GA24290@mooli.org.uk> On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 10:34:10AM +0100, mazzinia--- via cctalk wrote: > Interesting read, > What is your opinion of the Seagate exos 7e8 units ? (and does SED make any > difference in ensuring a bit more quality of the platters) I've not used them, but Exos disks ought to be be just fine. You don't stay in business by selling junk to enterprise customers. The Exos 2X14 is a fascinating device due to its dual actuators, and thus has twice the throughput and IOPS. It's like getting two 7TB disks in a single 3.5" slot and uses just one SATA/SAS lane so good for high storage density. I suspect it makes it twice as unreliable though. I also can't find them for sale anywhere. From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Nov 22 08:22:56 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 09:22:56 -0500 Subject: LCD screen repair In-Reply-To: <68554555.4604.175dac5e68a.Webtop.84@btinternet.com> References: <165c01d6bd45$b6719b20$2354d160$@internode.on.net> <68554555.4604.175dac5e68a.Webtop.84@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <03545C84-8265-4C21-9B5B-6018733DE831@comcast.net> > On Nov 18, 2020, at 4:53 AM, rice43 via cctalk wrote: > > > Whilst i have no experience replacing Apple G4 displays, LCD replacement in general is fairly easy. For starters, you're 100% going to need a new panel, preferably a like-for-like, though it's entirely possible you could stick in a different model if it's using LVDS connections inside. It's just a case of disassembling, swapping the screen, and reassembling in the reverse order. > To be honest, it's probably cheaper just to buy a complete display, instead of replacing the LCD screen. There won't be much price difference between the LCD panel and a complete display. The display shown in the original question looks like the early Apple LCD with a proprietary interface connector. Those might be available, but not all that common. A good option might be to replace it with a conventional DVI LCD. Depending on the Mac, it might have a second display connector that is DVI -- my Mac Pro does, for example. Or you might be able to find a convertor cable, I don't remember what's involved in those. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Nov 22 08:22:56 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 09:22:56 -0500 Subject: LCD screen repair In-Reply-To: <68554555.4604.175dac5e68a.Webtop.84@btinternet.com> References: <165c01d6bd45$b6719b20$2354d160$@internode.on.net> <68554555.4604.175dac5e68a.Webtop.84@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <03545C84-8265-4C21-9B5B-6018733DE831@comcast.net> > On Nov 18, 2020, at 4:53 AM, rice43 via cctalk wrote: > > > Whilst i have no experience replacing Apple G4 displays, LCD replacement in general is fairly easy. For starters, you're 100% going to need a new panel, preferably a like-for-like, though it's entirely possible you could stick in a different model if it's using LVDS connections inside. It's just a case of disassembling, swapping the screen, and reassembling in the reverse order. > To be honest, it's probably cheaper just to buy a complete display, instead of replacing the LCD screen. There won't be much price difference between the LCD panel and a complete display. The display shown in the original question looks like the early Apple LCD with a proprietary interface connector. Those might be available, but not all that common. A good option might be to replace it with a conventional DVI LCD. Depending on the Mac, it might have a second display connector that is DVI -- my Mac Pro does, for example. Or you might be able to find a convertor cable, I don't remember what's involved in those. paul From mechanic_2 at charter.net Sun Nov 22 13:55:52 2020 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 13:55:52 -0600 Subject: FS: Tek scope, HP LA, and Electronic components! In-Reply-To: <5FB8EC26.6060909@charter.net> References: <7KT3.1605952910247668036.X3TC@groups.io> <5FB8EC26.6060909@charter.net> Message-ID: <5FBAC248.6010605@charter.net> Hello all, The LA is sold pending payment! I appreciate the interest, the help, and the kind words. GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! Happy Thanksgiving! On 11/21/2020 4:29 AM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: > Hello all, > I have probably developed cancer. I can't get in for treatment. I > have enough lumps in my body that it probably wouldn't make a > difference. So more than likely I am dying. I am asking for everyone's > help. I am selling off all of my processions and simplifying my life > before I die. I don't want to see this stuff end up in the landfill. > Please help out a dying old man? > I have a Tektronix 465B Scope with four probes for sale. A HP > 16700A LA with 5 16555D LA cards and all of the cables. There is a > 16701B Expansion box and the interconnect cable. There is an external > SCSI drive box with a CD rom and a ST318417N drive in it. There are a > bunch of micro probes for the LA. A monitor, keyboard, mouse, manuals, > and CDs. I also have a very large collection of electronic components > in over 40 storage cabinets. There are also a lot of books on > electronics. > I am asking $250 plus the shipping on the scope. This shipping > won't be cheap. $500 plus shipping for the LA. Again shipping will be > very expensive. It will take five boxes to ship the LA. I will deliver > the scope and/or LA to any where in the lower 48 for the cost of > shipping. $500 for the components, cabinets, and books. Shipping is > not possible. So it it have to be local pick up. Bring a truck and > trailer. > PP F&F, Cashiers Check, or Postal Money Order. Please contact me > off list. > GOD Bless and Thanks, > rich! > Happy Thanksgiving! > From trash80 at internode.on.net Sun Nov 22 15:42:18 2020 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 08:42:18 +1100 Subject: LCD screen repair In-Reply-To: <68554555.4604.175dac5e68a.Webtop.84@btinternet.com> References: <165c01d6bd45$b6719b20$2354d160$@internode.on.net> <68554555.4604.175dac5e68a.Webtop.84@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <060401d6c118$5a1accd0$0e506670$@internode.on.net> Thank you - the idea of replacing the actual screen did not occur to me but it's interesting that you might be able to do that. By repair I meant repair the surface as the underlying pixels appear to be OK. I have read a few articles on different methods and some crowds even tout a kit to do it - is this snake oil or does it really work. I'd certainly be grateful for any advice from anyone who may have effected a surface repair. Thank you again!!! Kevin Parker -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of rice43 via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, 18 November 2020 8:53 PM To: cctech Subject: Re: LCD screen repair Whilst i have no experience replacing Apple G4 displays, LCD replacement in general is fairly easy. For starters, you're 100% going to need a new panel, preferably a like-for-like, though it's entirely possible you could stick in a different model if it's using LVDS connections inside. It's just a case of disassembling, swapping the screen, and reassembling in the reverse order. To be honest, it's probably cheaper just to buy a complete display, instead of replacing the LCD screen. There won't be much price difference between the LCD panel and a complete display. From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Sun Nov 22 16:01:36 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 14:01:36 -0800 Subject: DEC PDP-8/E wanted In-Reply-To: <3996d2e1-a3cc-228a-0baa-478382338e48@figureeightbrewing.com> References: <1128968125.335951.1605891307204.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1128968125.335951.1605891307204@mail.yahoo.com> <3996d2e1-a3cc-228a-0baa-478382338e48@figureeightbrewing.com> Message-ID: On Nov 20, 2020, at 10:08 AM, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: > > For those interested in a PDP-8 system but don't want the large size/weight and > maintenance issues, I built the full set of Spare Time Gizmos SBC6120 (integrated > PDP-8), FP6120 (front panel for SBC6120) and IOB6120 (Jim Kearney's multi-function > companion board) a number of years ago and would be willing to part with them > for a reasonable offer. Here are related links: Does anyone know of anyone building them for sale? I don?t need a ?real? PDP-8 in my life with all my other hardware (more Q-bus PDP-11, on the other hand?) but I?d love having *a* PDP-8, especially one that doesn?t require enormous amounts of power. ? Chris From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Nov 22 16:28:48 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 17:28:48 -0500 Subject: DEC PDP-8/E wanted In-Reply-To: References: <1128968125.335951.1605891307204.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1128968125.335951.1605891307204@mail.yahoo.com> <3996d2e1-a3cc-228a-0baa-478382338e48@figureeightbrewing.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 22, 2020, 5:01 PM Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: > On Nov 20, 2020, at 10:08 AM, Tom Uban via cctalk > wrote: > > > > For those interested in a PDP-8 system but don't want the large > size/weight and > > maintenance issues, I built the full set of Spare Time Gizmos SBC6120 > (integrated > > PDP-8), FP6120 (front panel for SBC6120) and IOB6120 (Jim Kearney's > multi-function > > companion board) a number of years ago and would be willing to part with > them > > for a reasonable offer. Here are related links: > > Does anyone know of anyone building them for sale? I don?t need a ?real? > PDP-8 in my life with all my other hardware (more Q-bus PDP-11, on the > other hand?) but I?d love having *a* PDP-8, especially one that doesn?t > require enormous amounts of power. > > ? Chris > Are.any pidp/8i 's left: https://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-8-get-one > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Nov 22 16:44:41 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 14:44:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: LCD screen repair In-Reply-To: <060401d6c118$5a1accd0$0e506670$@internode.on.net> References: <165c01d6bd45$b6719b20$2354d160$@internode.on.net> <68554555.4604.175dac5e68a.Webtop.84@btinternet.com> <060401d6c118$5a1accd0$0e506670$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Nov 2020, Kevin Parker via cctalk wrote: > Thank you - the idea of replacing the actual screen did not occur to me but > it's interesting that you might be able to do that. > By repair I meant repair the surface as the underlying pixels appear to be > OK. I have read a few articles on different methods and some crowds even > tout a kit to do it - is this snake oil or does it really work. I'd > certainly be grateful for any advice from anyone who may have effected a > surface repair. I've used clear glue for pits and cracks in automotive windshileds. I've never used it, but I have heard that there exist clear glues for scratches on eyeglasses. I wonder how well THAT works? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mosst at SDF.ORG Sun Nov 22 18:25:00 2020 From: mosst at SDF.ORG (Thomas Moss) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 00:25:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: DEC PDP-8/E wanted Message-ID: On Nov 22, 2020, at 04:01 PM, Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: > >Does anyone know of anyone building them for sale? I dont need a real >PDP-8 in my life with all my other hardware (more Q-bus PDP-11, on the >other hand) but Id love having *a* PDP-8, especially one that doesnt >require enormous amounts of power. Hi Chris, There's a few options in this regard, in increasing degrees of "realness" (and cost!) depending on how you define it. 1) The PiDP-8 by Oscar Vermeulen - Raspberry Pi based 8/i replica running SIMH in a miniaturised case. https://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-8 2) The SBC6120 - Originally by Spare Time Gizmos, but now re-released by the RetroBrew Computers community. This is a 6120 based PDP-8/e replica, with optional front panel. (the panel doesn't appear to be made "officially" anymore, as the design files are missing, but a Russian company appears to have copied it. (I have the Russian version but have yet to assemble it.) https://www.retrobrewcomputers.org/doku.php?id=boards:sbc:sbc6120-rbc-edition:start http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/SBC6120-2.htm https://chipkin.ru/product/pechatnye-platy-dec-pdp-8-e/ 3) The LD12 / LD20 by Franklin Prosser and David E. Winkel - This is a TTL based clone of a PDP-8/i, originally devised as part of an exercise in the book "The Art of Digital Design An Introduction to Top Down Design" in the early 80s. A few people on vcfed.org have built their own based on these designs, and daver2 has made a run of PCBs (wirewrapped!) http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?74125 4) Vince Slyngstad of so-much-stuff.com has scanned many PDP-8 boards and re-created them in Eagle CAD software. I know he's been working on re-creating the 8/e CPU recently but AFAIK it's not finished yet. There are however many OMNIBUS peripheral cards, and a board that combines 32KW of battery backed RAM with a boot ROM. Roland Huisman has also re-created the RX8E floppy controller, and has made an RX02 emulator to go with it, so if you lack an RX01/2 drive you can still have something to boot off. Kyle Owen has also created a neat bit of software that allows you to use a spare serial port and a *NIX system to simulate an RK05. So with all this, it should in theory be possible to build your own 8/e class system soon enough if you can find all the parts for it. http://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cad/boards.php https://github.com/Roland-Huisman https://github.com/drovak/os8diskserver Regards, -Tom mosst at sdf.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - https://sdf.org From mosst at SDF.ORG Sun Nov 22 18:46:10 2020 From: mosst at SDF.ORG (Thomas Moss) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 00:46:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: DEC PDP-8/E wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Chris, Whoops, somehow I'd read your reply to Tom Uban but completely misread what it was you were asking by skimming over what he said. Anyway, as far as SBC6120s go, I don't know of anyone "building them", as in a ready built system, but blank PCBs are available on chipkin.ru if you can tolerate waiting for Russian Post. As far as I know RetroBrew finished their run, but as the Gerbers are GNU FDL'd so you can have PCBs made anywhere. -Tom From ccth6600 at gmail.com Sun Nov 22 19:26:25 2020 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 09:26:25 +0800 Subject: DEC PDP-8/E wanted In-Reply-To: <3996d2e1-a3cc-228a-0baa-478382338e48@figureeightbrewing.com> References: <1128968125.335951.1605891307204.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1128968125.335951.1605891307204@mail.yahoo.com> <3996d2e1-a3cc-228a-0baa-478382338e48@figureeightbrewing.com> Message-ID: Hi Tom, You haven't replied to my email to you about your SBC6120. I would like to buy your Spare Times Gizmo kit and would be happy to pay a reasonable price. Would $800 be acceptable? Thanks and best regards Tom Hunter On Sun, Nov 22, 2020 at 3:24 PM Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: > For those interested in a PDP-8 system but don't want the large > size/weight and > maintenance issues, I built the full set of Spare Time Gizmos SBC6120 > (integrated > PDP-8), FP6120 (front panel for SBC6120) and IOB6120 (Jim Kearney's > multi-function > companion board) a number of years ago and would be willing to part with > them > for a reasonable offer. Here are related links: > > http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/SBC6120_Builders.htm > https://www.grc.com/pdp-8/yourown-sbc.htm > https://www.jkearney.com/sbc6120/iob6120.htm > > --tom > > > On 11/20/20 10:55 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > Go for a 8m or f same omnibus and easer to lift as only onevnibuss > panel! - > > On Friday, November 20, 2020 John H. Reinhardt via cctalk < > johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org; cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On 11/20/2020 8:01 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > >> I know it is the year 2020 but nevertheless what are my chances of > finding > >> a complete and repairable DEC PDP-8/E or as a second choice a PDP-8/I ? > >> > >> Is there any hope or should I be just content with my SIMH based > PiDP-8/I? > >> > >> Thanks > >> Tom Hunter > > Funny you should mention... > > > > There is a guy in Endicott, NY with a PDP-8/E possibly looking for a new > home. Posted a couple days ago on the VCF DEC Forum > > < > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?77602-DEC-de-accession-value-estimates-sought&p=643984#post643984 > > > > > >> Circumstances require selling off some or all the DECs [ will still > have some DGs to play with ]. > >> One can often get a general idea of value based on prior open market > (like eBay) sales but not > >> enough comparables out there, so would like to get a ball-park idea. > >> > >> Prefer to see them stay within VCF but because of the amount previously > invested I'm not able to "give it away" > >> at hobby prices as I would like in an ideal world. Everything is good > shape and complete, but not booted up since dry long term storage. May sell > some or all of it but will try here before eBay. Here's a quick overview, > informed and straightforward feedback much appreciated. > >> > >>> Complete PDP-8/E, 8k core, full flip chip/board set (have list), good > condition, long dry storage. > >>> Complete PDP-11/05, 8k core, full flip chip/board set (have list) good > condition, long dry storage. > >>> DECScope VT-52, good condition nothing missing or damaged from long > term storage. > >>> RX-01 dual floppy drive, good condition nothing missing or damaged, > from long storage. > >> thanks for your help. > >> Roger in NY > > Be aware people are telling him his system is probably worth about > $1000. I have seen other 8's go for more on Ebay but I don't recall which > model. > > > > From ccth6600 at gmail.com Sun Nov 22 19:40:05 2020 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 09:40:05 +0800 Subject: DEC PDP-8/E wanted In-Reply-To: References: <1128968125.335951.1605891307204.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1128968125.335951.1605891307204@mail.yahoo.com> <3996d2e1-a3cc-228a-0baa-478382338e48@figureeightbrewing.com> Message-ID: Oscar makes one run of his PiDP-8/I kit about every month. The complete kit is only $165 plus $40 for shipping. I got the kit in September and it is easy to assemble if you know how to solder. It took me about 4 hours. The kit is based on SIMH running on a Raspberry PI. The front panel size is 60% of the original and the whole assembled system is only 2" deep so nicely fits into your bookshelf. No wiring other than power via an AC adapter is required. Your terminal sessions can be over Wifi or you can use USB to serial converters to connect real terminals. It is a very nice and very functional recreation of the PDP-8/I and includes OS/8 and TSS/8 disk images and even Spacewar ready to run. Best regards Tom Hunter On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 6:29 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sun, Nov 22, 2020, 5:01 PM Chris Hanson via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > On Nov 20, 2020, at 10:08 AM, Tom Uban via cctalk > > > wrote: > > > > > > For those interested in a PDP-8 system but don't want the large > > size/weight and > > > maintenance issues, I built the full set of Spare Time Gizmos SBC6120 > > (integrated > > > PDP-8), FP6120 (front panel for SBC6120) and IOB6120 (Jim Kearney's > > multi-function > > > companion board) a number of years ago and would be willing to part > with > > them > > > for a reasonable offer. Here are related links: > > > > Does anyone know of anyone building them for sale? I don?t need a ?real? > > PDP-8 in my life with all my other hardware (more Q-bus PDP-11, on the > > other hand?) but I?d love having *a* PDP-8, especially one that doesn?t > > require enormous amounts of power. > > > > ? Chris > > > > Are.any pidp/8i 's left: > https://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-8-get-one > > > > From mechanic_2 at charter.net Sun Nov 22 20:25:30 2020 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2020 20:25:30 -0600 Subject: FS: Tek scope, HP LA, and Electronic components! In-Reply-To: <5FB8EC26.6060909@charter.net> References: <7KT3.1605952910247668036.X3TC@groups.io> <5FB8EC26.6060909@charter.net> Message-ID: <5FBB1D9A.7000107@charter.net> Hello all, The LA is sold and paid for! I appreciate all of the interest and the help! GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! Happy Thanksgiving! On 11/21/2020 4:29 AM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: > Hello all, > I have probably developed cancer. I can't get in for treatment. I > have enough lumps in my body that it probably wouldn't make a > difference. So more than likely I am dying. I am asking for everyone's > help. I am selling off all of my processions and simplifying my life > before I die. I don't want to see this stuff end up in the landfill. > Please help out a dying old man? > I have a Tektronix 465B Scope with four probes for sale. A HP > 16700A LA with 5 16555D LA cards and all of the cables. There is a > 16701B Expansion box and the interconnect cable. There is an external > SCSI drive box with a CD rom and a ST318417N drive in it. There are a > bunch of micro probes for the LA. A monitor, keyboard, mouse, manuals, > and CDs. I also have a very large collection of electronic components > in over 40 storage cabinets. There are also a lot of books on > electronics. > I am asking $250 plus the shipping on the scope. This shipping > won't be cheap. $500 plus shipping for the LA. Again shipping will be > very expensive. It will take five boxes to ship the LA. I will deliver > the scope and/or LA to any where in the lower 48 for the cost of > shipping. $500 for the components, cabinets, and books. Shipping is > not possible. So it it have to be local pick up. Bring a truck and > trailer. > PP F&F, Cashiers Check, or Postal Money Order. Please contact me > off list. > GOD Bless and Thanks, > rich! > Happy Thanksgiving! > From linimon at lonesome.com Sun Nov 22 20:31:28 2020 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 02:31:28 +0000 Subject: FS: Tek scope, HP LA, and Electronic components! In-Reply-To: <5FB8EC26.6060909@charter.net> References: <7KT3.1605952910247668036.X3TC@groups.io> <5FB8EC26.6060909@charter.net> Message-ID: <20201123023127.GB3316@lonesome.com> I think I can speak for a lot of people here on the list that I am sorry to hear this news. I really don't have the words, other than that. mcl From rice43 at btinternet.com Mon Nov 23 03:11:05 2020 From: rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 09:11:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: LCD screen repair In-Reply-To: <060401d6c118$5a1accd0$0e506670$@internode.on.net> References: <165c01d6bd45$b6719b20$2354d160$@internode.on.net> <68554555.4604.175dac5e68a.Webtop.84@btinternet.com> <060401d6c118$5a1accd0$0e506670$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <1cabcec1.b22a.175f45ef47c.Webtop.109@btinternet.com> You'll have a better idea than me, but it looked like the underlying glass in the LCD panel was cracked, though that might have been dust smudges. If it's just the overlying plastic coating that's scuffed, it's possible to replace it, but quite tricky. I'm not overly familiar with the panel in question, but often there's several layers of plastic. One is likely a matte effect coating, and the one underneath is probably the polariser sheet. If it's the polariser that's gone (you can tell, because the damaged area where the polariser has gone won't have any colour, will be solid white), you'll need to very carefully replace that (in the right orientation!) without causing air bubbles or other artefacts in the process If it's just the matte coating, just remove it, again very carefully. From ccth6600 at gmail.com Mon Nov 23 04:53:37 2020 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 18:53:37 +0800 Subject: DEC PDP-8/E wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have received a lot of feedback about desirable DEC PDP-8 models. Here is my updated list of PDP-8 models I would be interested in buying: PDP-8/F PDP-8/E PDP-8/L PDP-8/I PDP-8/M I am also interested in buying a "Spare Time Gizmos" SBC6120 based computer complete with front-panel and IO board. I would be happy to buy the original un-built kit or the fully built computer. I have spent the past 18 years focusing on my old love affair with CDC 6000 and CYBER series mainframes (see http://control-data.info/) but have fallen in love again with the PDP-8 after exploring the architecture using Oscar's PiDP-8/I based on a Raspberry Pi running SIMH. Best regards Tom Hunter On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 10:01 PM Tom Hunter wrote: > I know it is the year 2020 but nevertheless what are my chances of finding > a complete and repairable DEC PDP-8/E or as a second choice a PDP-8/I ? > > Is there any hope or should I be just content with my SIMH based PiDP-8/I? > > Thanks > Tom Hunter > > From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Nov 24 06:02:58 2020 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 13:02:58 +0100 Subject: Fortran IV V2.5 for RT-11 Message-ID: I found a three RX01 disk set for a Fortran IV system V2.5 for RT-11. I dumped the contents and it is available here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/12VXh4wk3Zo_fSGRtLPHwrJg6ui3pwVd-/view?usp=sharing From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 24 14:22:43 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2020 12:22:43 -0800 Subject: Fortran IV V2.5 for RT-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5e66bbca-2152-5116-fcdd-1663f353c9e8@sydex.com> On 11/24/20 4:02 AM, Mattis Lind via cctech wrote: > I found a three RX01 disk set for a Fortran IV system V2.5 for RT-11. > > I dumped the contents and it is available here: > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/12VXh4wk3Zo_fSGRtLPHwrJg6ui3pwVd-/view?usp=sharing I believe (not sure about version) that I have that on tape, if you're interested. --Chuck From macro at linux-mips.org Tue Nov 24 20:47:57 2020 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 02:47:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: <20201120224657.GB29231@mooli.org.uk> References: <984FBE82-56A3-47E1-9CEF-158F680087B5@vmssoftware.com> <59139226-3071-4125-89D3-FFC23A0A0450@gmail.com> <5FB34331.7020103@charter.net> <20201117092634.GA29988@mooli.org.uk> <20201120224657.GB29231@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Nov 2020, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > That same $100 widget imported into the UK becomes $120 due to the 20% VAT > rate, which comes to ?90, but the UK has its own self-inflicted problems which > cause importers loads of extra costs and ?100 is easily believable. Don't forget a fixed per-clearance administrative fee, covering all the bureaucratic processing, will easily fill the missing ?10 (exact amount varies by the carrier). For an item worth $20 received via Royal Mail I recently paid ?13.31 customs charges: ?5.31 VAT + ?8.00 handling fee -- almost doubling the nominal value of the item (and that does not include postage!). Maciej From lm at mcvoy.com Wed Nov 25 11:38:14 2020 From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 09:38:14 -0800 Subject: [TUHS] Seeking wisdom from Unix Greybeards In-Reply-To: <9c1595cc-54a1-8af9-0c2d-083cb04dd97c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <9c1595cc-54a1-8af9-0c2d-083cb04dd97c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <20201125173814.GB9589@mcvoy.com> man 1 tput is what I use. On Wed, Nov 25, 2020 at 10:14:55AM -0700, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote: > Hi, > > As I find myself starting yet another project that that wants to use ANSI > control sequences for colorization of text, I find myself -- yet again -- > wondering if there is a better way to generate the output from the code in a > way that respects TERMinal capabilites. > > Is there a better / different control sequence that I can ~> should use for > colorizing / stylizing output that will account for the differences in > capabilities between a VT100 and XTerm? > > Can I wrap things that I output so that I don't send color control sequences > to a TERMinal that doesn't support them? > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > -- --- Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com http://www.mcvoy.com/lm From steffen at sdaoden.eu Wed Nov 25 12:00:48 2020 From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 19:00:48 +0100 Subject: [TUHS] Seeking wisdom from Unix Greybeards In-Reply-To: <9c1595cc-54a1-8af9-0c2d-083cb04dd97c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <9c1595cc-54a1-8af9-0c2d-083cb04dd97c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <20201125180048.IvtOI%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Grant Taylor wrote in <9c1595cc-54a1-8af9-0c2d-083cb04dd97c at spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>: |Hi, | |As I find myself starting yet another project that that wants to use |ANSI control sequences for colorization of text, I find myself -- yet |again -- wondering if there is a better way to generate the output from |the code in a way that respects TERMinal capabilites. | |Is there a better / different control sequence that I can ~> should use |for colorizing / stylizing output that will account for the differences |in capabilities between a VT100 and XTerm? | |Can I wrap things that I output so that I don't send color control |sequences to a TERMinal that doesn't support them? color_init() { [ -n "${NOCOLOUR}" ] && return [ -n "${MAILX_CC_TEST_NO_COLOUR}" ] && return # We do not want color for "make test > .LOG"! if (command -v stty && command -v tput) >/dev/null 2>&1 && (<&1 >/dev/null stty -a) 2>/dev/null; then { sgr0=`tput sgr0`; } 2>/dev/null [ $? -eq 0 ] || return { saf1=`tput setaf 1`; } 2>/dev/null [ $? -eq 0 ] || return { saf2=`tput setaf 2`; } 2>/dev/null [ $? -eq 0 ] || return { saf3=`tput setaf 3`; } 2>/dev/null [ $? -eq 0 ] || return { b=`tput bold`; } 2>/dev/null [ $? -eq 0 ] || return COLOR_ERR_ON=${saf1}${b} COLOR_ERR_OFF=${sgr0} COLOR_WARN_ON=${saf3}${b} COLOR_WARN_OFF=${sgr0} COLOR_OK_ON=${saf2} COLOR_OK_OFF=${sgr0} unset saf1 saf2 saf3 b fi } Is what i use for a make system. --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) From steffen at sdaoden.eu Wed Nov 25 14:03:08 2020 From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 21:03:08 +0100 Subject: [TUHS] Seeking wisdom from Unix Greybeards In-Reply-To: <20201125180048.IvtOI%steffen@sdaoden.eu> References: <9c1595cc-54a1-8af9-0c2d-083cb04dd97c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20201125180048.IvtOI%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Message-ID: <20201125200308.Kc4ne%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Steffen Nurpmeso wrote in <20201125180048.IvtOI%steffen at sdaoden.eu>: |Grant Taylor wrote in | <9c1595cc-54a1-8af9-0c2d-083cb04dd97c at spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>: ||As I find myself starting yet another project that that wants to use ||ANSI control sequences for colorization of text, I find myself -- yet ||again -- wondering if there is a better way to generate the output from ||the code in a way that respects TERMinal capabilites. || ||Is there a better / different control sequence that I can ~> should use ||for colorizing / stylizing output that will account for the differences ||in capabilities between a VT100 and XTerm? || ||Can I wrap things that I output so that I don't send color control ||sequences to a TERMinal that doesn't support them? | | color_init() { | [ -n "${NOCOLOUR}" ] && return | [ -n "${MAILX_CC_TEST_NO_COLOUR}" ] && return | # We do not want color for "make test > .LOG"! | if (command -v stty && command -v tput) >/dev/null 2>&1 && Of course that subshell (..if it is one..) is not necessary, it could be { ..; } or x&&y&&, whatever. Must be a leftover, or whatever i have thought once i wrote this. | (<&1 >/dev/null stty -a) 2>/dev/null; then | { sgr0=`tput sgr0`; } 2>/dev/null | [ $? -eq 0 ] || return | { saf1=`tput setaf 1`; } 2>/dev/null | [ $? -eq 0 ] || return | { saf2=`tput setaf 2`; } 2>/dev/null | [ $? -eq 0 ] || return | { saf3=`tput setaf 3`; } 2>/dev/null | [ $? -eq 0 ] || return | { b=`tput bold`; } 2>/dev/null | [ $? -eq 0 ] || return | | COLOR_ERR_ON=${saf1}${b} COLOR_ERR_OFF=${sgr0} | COLOR_WARN_ON=${saf3}${b} COLOR_WARN_OFF=${sgr0} | COLOR_OK_ON=${saf2} COLOR_OK_OFF=${sgr0} | unset saf1 saf2 saf3 b | fi |} | |Is what i use for a make system. A sh(1)-based test, to be exact. Ciao, --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Nov 25 17:11:35 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 16:11:35 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Seeking wisdom from Unix Greybeards In-Reply-To: <20201125180048.IvtOI%steffen@sdaoden.eu> References: <9c1595cc-54a1-8af9-0c2d-083cb04dd97c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20201125180048.IvtOI%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Message-ID: On 11/25/20 11:00 AM, Steffen Nurpmeso via cctalk wrote: > Is what i use for a make system. Thank you for the input Steffen. I'll re-read through what you've shared. I have a slight added complication that currently the color generation is in the body of an awk file. I may need to have BEGIN{...} do some tests and set some variables that are used in the body. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From imp at bsdimp.com Wed Nov 25 17:17:45 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 16:17:45 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Seeking wisdom from Unix Greybeards In-Reply-To: References: <9c1595cc-54a1-8af9-0c2d-083cb04dd97c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20201125180048.IvtOI%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 25, 2020, 4:11 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 11/25/20 11:00 AM, Steffen Nurpmeso via cctalk wrote: > > Is what i use for a make system. > > Thank you for the input Steffen. > > I'll re-read through what you've shared. > > I have a slight added complication that currently the color generation > is in the body of an awk file. > > I may need to have BEGIN{...} do some tests and set some variables that > are used in the body. > One area that I think held awk back was the lack of standardized c bindings for easy extensibility. Warner > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Nov 25 17:23:02 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 16:23:02 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Seeking wisdom from Unix Greybeards In-Reply-To: References: <9c1595cc-54a1-8af9-0c2d-083cb04dd97c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20201125180048.IvtOI%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Message-ID: <1f826190-5440-9f21-abe8-bdb94ed1e82b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 11/25/20 4:17 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > One area that I think held awk back was the lack of standardized c > bindings for easy extensibility. But "...system(...)...". ;-) I jest, but that may be how I would interface with tput. As it is, awk, combined with watch and netstat, is making a very nice (near) real time graph of network connections. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Nov 25 17:28:50 2020 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2020 15:28:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [TUHS] Seeking wisdom from Unix Greybeards In-Reply-To: from Warner Losh via cctalk at "Nov 25, 20 04:17:45 pm" Message-ID: <202011252328.0APNSoHr14221422@floodgap.com> > One area that I think held awk back was the lack of standardized c bindings > for easy extensibility. I'm not sure I agree. I despise how half the extant Python and Perl code requires compiled shared libraries (apart from the standard library). I make it a point to write script code with minimal dependencies other than any utilities that might called by system() or moral equivalents. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The steady state of disks is full. -- Ken Thompson ------------------------- From ccth6600 at gmail.com Thu Nov 26 00:01:49 2020 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2020 14:01:49 +0800 Subject: DEC PDP-8/E wanted - still looking Message-ID: Tom Uban fully built "Spare Time Gizmos" SBC6120 based computer complete with front-panel and IO board is on its way to me. :-) I am still looking to buy one of the following PDP-8 models: PDP-8/F PDP-8/E PDP-8/L PDP-8/I PDP-8/M Dave, Chris, Paul and Robert I am looking forward to getting more details from you. I am happy to pay a reasonable price for the right PDP-8, so a seller won't be disappointed. Thanks and best regards Tom Hunter From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Nov 26 04:28:51 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2020 10:28:51 -0000 Subject: DEC PDP-8/E wanted - still looking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01ef01d6c3de$ef98e8a0$cecab9e0$@gmail.com> Tom, If it has an IOB6120 then it the VT emulation kills the Fortran run time system in OS8. Dave G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Tom Hunter via > cctalk > Sent: 26 November 2020 06:02 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: DEC PDP-8/E wanted - still looking > > Tom Uban fully built "Spare Time Gizmos" SBC6120 based computer > complete > with front-panel and IO board is on its way to me. :-) > > I am still looking to buy one of the following PDP-8 models: > > PDP-8/F > PDP-8/E > PDP-8/L > PDP-8/I > PDP-8/M > > Dave, Chris, Paul and Robert I am looking forward to getting more details > from you. > > I am happy to pay a reasonable price for the right PDP-8, so a seller won't be > disappointed. > > Thanks and best regards > Tom Hunter From cz at alembic.crystel.com Thu Nov 26 11:47:54 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2020 12:47:54 -0500 Subject: DEC PDP-8/E wanted - still looking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <880d023e-052c-f685-684a-adc29a4898e3@alembic.crystel.com> We'll see. At the moment I'm not interested in selling either of the 8/L's. The 8/E is a bit more complicated, will have to think about that. C On 11/26/2020 1:01 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > Tom Uban fully built "Spare Time Gizmos" SBC6120 based computer complete > with front-panel and IO board is on its way to me. :-) > > I am still looking to buy one of the following PDP-8 models: > > PDP-8/F > PDP-8/E > PDP-8/L > PDP-8/I > PDP-8/M > > Dave, Chris, Paul and Robert I am looking forward to getting more details > from you. > > I am happy to pay a reasonable price for the right PDP-8, so a seller won't > be disappointed. > > Thanks and best regards > Tom Hunter > From cym224 at gmail.com Thu Nov 26 12:26:30 2020 From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo Nusquam) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2020 13:26:30 -0500 Subject: [TUHS] Seeking wisdom from Unix Greybeards In-Reply-To: References: <9c1595cc-54a1-8af9-0c2d-083cb04dd97c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <71fdfa2e-1483-4985-3f55-6760b3a84ec0@gmail.com> On 11/26/20 11:26, Ed Carp wrote: > You could write something in C using curses/ncurses (which will > do the ANSI sequences for you automatically). True but I wonder whether curses would be bit heavy handed for this. N. From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Thu Nov 26 12:35:01 2020 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2020 13:35:01 -0500 Subject: [TUHS] Seeking wisdom from Unix Greybeards In-Reply-To: <202011252328.0APNSoHr14221422@floodgap.com> References: <202011252328.0APNSoHr14221422@floodgap.com> Message-ID: Every time I see discussions about terminal control sequences and Unix, I can not help but be reminded of Johnny Zweig's eloquent analysis, as quoted in The Unix Haters Handboodk. https://web.mit.edu/~simsong/www/ugh.pdf Forcing programmers to be aware of how their programs talk to terminals is medieval, to say the least. Johnny Zweig put it rather bluntly: Date: 2 May 90 17:23:34 GMT From: zweig at casca.cs.uiuc.edu (Johnny Zweig) Subject: /etc/termcap Newsgroups: alt.peeves In my opinion as a scientist as well as a software engineer, there is no reason in the world anyone should have to know /etc/termcap even EXISTS, let alone have to muck around with setting the right environment variables so that it is possible to vi a file. Some airhead has further messed up my life by seeing to it that most termcaps have the idea that "xterm" is an 80x65 line display. For those of us who use the X WINDOWS system to display WINDOWS on our workstations, 80x65 makes as much sense as reclining bucket seats on a bicycle ? they are too goddamn big to fit enough of them on the screen. This idiot should be killed twice. It seems like figuring out what the hell kind of terminal I am using is not as hard as, say, launching nuclear missiles to within 10 yards of their targets, landing men on the moon or, say, Tetris. Why the hell hasn't this bull been straightened out after 30 goddamn years of sweat, blood, and tears on the part of people trying to write software that doesn't give its users the heebie-jeebies? And the first person who says "all you have to do is type 'eval resize' " gets a big sock in the nose for being a clueless geek who missed the point. This stuff ought to be handled 1 1 levels of software below the level at which a user types a command ? the goddamned HARDWARE ought to be able to figure out what kind of terminal it is, and if it can't it should put a message on my console saying, "You are using piss-poor hardware and are a loser; give up and get a real job." ? Johnny Terminal From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Nov 26 13:30:06 2020 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2020 11:30:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [TUHS] Seeking wisdom from Unix Greybeards In-Reply-To: <71fdfa2e-1483-4985-3f55-6760b3a84ec0@gmail.com> from Nemo Nusquam via cctalk at "Nov 26, 20 01:26:30 pm" Message-ID: <202011261930.0AQJU6io14811252@floodgap.com> > > You could write something in C using curses/ncurses (which will > > do the ANSI sequences for you automatically). > > True but I wonder whether curses would be bit heavy handed for this. You had me at "a bit heavy handed." -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- LOAD"STANDARD DISCLAIMER",8,1 ---------------------------------------------- From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Nov 26 14:27:01 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2020 13:27:01 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Seeking wisdom from Unix Greybeards In-Reply-To: References: <202011252328.0APNSoHr14221422@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 11/26/20 11:35 AM, Tony Aiuto via cctalk wrote: > Every time I see discussions about terminal control sequences > and Unix, I can not help but be reminded of Johnny Zweig's > eloquent analysis, as quoted in The Unix Haters Handboodk. > https://web.mit.edu/~simsong/www/ugh.pdf ~chuckle~ I'm going to leave that one alone. > Forcing programmers to be aware of how their programs talk to terminals > is medieval, to say the least. Johnny Zweig put it rather bluntly: I don't know if that's a fair characterization. Especially when my use case context is either a shell echo or an awk print(f) statement. The "how do I give the terminal data?" question is relatively easy. Perhaps the "how" refers more to "what is said" to the terminal. As in "^[[34m;bob^[[0m;" vs "bob". Somewhat ironically, it's my caring about doing things properly that has me asking the question that prompted reference to Unix Haters Handbook. ;-) If I didn't care, I'd just put out the colorized version and be done with it. Aside: I wonder how much similarity there is related to controlling old serial terminals and controlling various web browsers from the 90s-2010s. After all, web browsers are doing (at least) much the same thing that terminals used to do; displaying data with some amount of formatting. Do to time constraints, I opted to just putting the raw ANSI control codes directly in the functions that do the printing. But I have the code structured so that I can easily insert a minimal amount of code to interface with something like tput. I do like how tput deals with all the smoke and mirrors of what control sequences need to be used, or not, so that I don't need to. I do have a real world (at least for me) example of two different terminals that behave differently. XTerm (et al.) do what I want them to do. However, the Linux (virtual) console seems to be a subset thereof. Notably the terminal control sequences meant to set the window title have an undesired behavior in on the Linux (virtual) console. As such I do have some code in my profile to account for that when building PS1. -- Should I need to do that? Probably not. Is it insurmountable? No. Would it be nicer to integrate something to make that decision for me? Yes. Would that be a worthwhile dependency? I doubt it. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From erc at pobox.com Thu Nov 26 10:26:28 2020 From: erc at pobox.com (Ed Carp) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2020 09:26:28 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Seeking wisdom from Unix Greybeards In-Reply-To: <9c1595cc-54a1-8af9-0c2d-083cb04dd97c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <9c1595cc-54a1-8af9-0c2d-083cb04dd97c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: You could write something in C using curses/ncurses (which will do the ANSI sequences for you automatically). From lm at mcvoy.com Thu Nov 26 12:29:37 2020 From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2020 10:29:37 -0800 Subject: [TUHS] Seeking wisdom from Unix Greybeards In-Reply-To: <71fdfa2e-1483-4985-3f55-6760b3a84ec0@gmail.com> References: <9c1595cc-54a1-8af9-0c2d-083cb04dd97c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <71fdfa2e-1483-4985-3f55-6760b3a84ec0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20201126182937.GN9589@mcvoy.com> Um, as has been stated multiple time, this is why tputs(1) exists. Problem. Solved. On Thu, Nov 26, 2020 at 01:26:30PM -0500, Nemo Nusquam wrote: > On 11/26/20 11:26, Ed Carp wrote: > > You could write something in C using curses/ncurses (which will > > do the ANSI sequences for you automatically). > > True but I wonder whether curses would be bit heavy handed for this. > > N. -- --- Larry McVoy lm at mcvoy.com http://www.mcvoy.com/lm From erc at pobox.com Thu Nov 26 17:14:13 2020 From: erc at pobox.com (Ed Carp) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2020 16:14:13 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Seeking wisdom from Unix Greybeards In-Reply-To: <20201126182937.GN9589@mcvoy.com> References: <9c1595cc-54a1-8af9-0c2d-083cb04dd97c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <71fdfa2e-1483-4985-3f55-6760b3a84ec0@gmail.com> <20201126182937.GN9589@mcvoy.com> Message-ID: Larry, as was stated in the original post (and multiple times in the replies), I believe they were looking for another solution. On 11/26/20, Larry McVoy wrote: > Um, as has been stated multiple time, this is why tputs(1) exists. > Problem. Solved. From lm at mcvoy.com Thu Nov 26 17:23:40 2020 From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2020 15:23:40 -0800 Subject: [TUHS] Seeking wisdom from Unix Greybeards In-Reply-To: References: <9c1595cc-54a1-8af9-0c2d-083cb04dd97c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <71fdfa2e-1483-4985-3f55-6760b3a84ec0@gmail.com> <20201126182937.GN9589@mcvoy.com> Message-ID: <20201126232340.GE9609@mcvoy.com> Did I miss a reason for the alternative? Because if you add a caching layer this approach has been working for me for decades. I rewrote dired in perl just because perl was everywhere and I could. I've been dragging the perl one around since at least 1990 and it worked for me on pretty much any version of Unix. I think MacOS isn't supported but I'm sure it could be. To avoid calling tput over and over again, I cached the output for each terminal and then just evaled the cache which sets a bunch of variables to the escapes I needed. It performed just fine on 20mhz SPARCstations so I'm sort of wondering why the solution for the problem isn't good enough. # Dig out all the terminal info so we know the escape chars for this terminal. sub terminal_init { local($term) = "$ENV{'HOME'}/.term/$ENV{'TERM'}"; local($i) = 0; $| = 1; @pids = (); $SIG{TERM} = sub { exit(0); }; $SIG{PIPE} = 'IGNORE'; # RedHat 5.0 seems to get this wrong somehow. #chop($tc_rows = `tput lines`); #chop($tc_cols = `tput cols`); open(STTY, "stty -a|"); while (defined($_ = )) { last if /rows = \d/ || /\d rows/ || /rows \d/; } close(STTY); #speed 9600 baud; rows 58; columns 80; line = 0; #speed 9600 baud; 47 rows; 80 columns; #rows = 66; columns = 80 $tc_cols = 0; if (/rows (\d+); columns (\d+);/) { $tc_rows = $1; $tc_cols = $2; } elsif (/(\d+) rows; (\d+) columns;/) { $tc_rows = $1; $tc_cols = $2; } elsif (/rows = (\d+); columns = (\d+)/) { $tc_rows = $1; $tc_cols = $2; } if ($tc_cols == 0) { die "Can't get terminal settings.\n"; } $half_of_screen = int($tc_rows / 2); # it's cached, go grab it. if (-f $term) { open(T, $term); @t = ; close(T); eval "@t"; &ttyraw; return unless $i < $tc_rows; } print "Getting terminal info just this once and saving it..."; mkdir("$ENV{'HOME'}/.term", 0755); open(T, ">$term"); $tc_smcup = `tput smcup`; $tc_rmcup = `tput rmcup`; $tc_bold = `tput bold`; $tc_normal = `tput sgr0`; $tc_clear = `tput clear`; $tc_clreos = `tput ed`; $tc_clreol = `tput el`; if ($tc_cols < 60) { die "$0: needs 60 columns"; } if (length($tc_clreos) == 0) { die "$0: needs clear to end of screen"; } if (length($tc_clreol) == 0) { die "$0: needs clear to end of line"; } print T "\$tc_smcup = \"$tc_smcup\";\n"; print T "\$tc_rmcup = \"$tc_rmcup\";\n"; print T "\$tc_bold = \"$tc_bold\";\n"; print T "\$tc_normal = \"$tc_normal\";\n"; print T "\$tc_clear = \"$tc_clear\";\n"; print T "\$tc_clreol = \"$tc_clreol\";\n"; print T "\$tc_clreos = \"$tc_clreos\";\n"; for ($i = 0; $i < $tc_rows; ++$i) { $left[$i] = `tput cup $i 0`; print T '$left[' . "$i] = \"" . $left[$i] . "\";\n"; if ($i < $half_of_screen) { $middle[$i] = `tput cup $i 44`; print T '$middle[' . "$i] = \"" . $middle[$i] . "\";\n"; } } print T '$i = ' . "$i;\n"; close(T); print "done\n"; &ttyraw; } From keith at saracom.com Thu Nov 26 17:46:29 2020 From: keith at saracom.com (keith at saracom.com) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2020 18:46:29 -0500 Subject: NEC NEAX IVS2 PBX with NEAXMAIL AD-8 - hard drive clone issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <602a89099617365736972dc4f8d4d4a0@saracom.com> Hi Everyone, Not a classic computer but has a 386 embedded in it for the voice mail. I rescued it from work. We had it rung for 20 years straight. The voice mail (AD-8) is basically a 386 running MS-DOS 6.22. So my concern is the hard drive. It is the original 2.5 inch IDE IBM Travelstar 6 GB drive. It has bee running for 20 years except for a handful of extended power outages. Hence while it is working now, I don't have too much hope for the future. The PBX had its on battery backup and also was always connected to a UPS. I have tried to copy it to an industrial CF card but no luck. I have used Rufus, Active Disk Image, and Macrium Reflect. I don't have my older PCs up and running at the moment, hence I have been trying with a Window's 10 machine and USB adapters to no avail. Since the voicemail card is running headless, I can't see the error messages. There is a serial port but but I have figured out the settings yet. Any suggestions? Do I need to get a DOS machine running to do this? And yes, I really don't need the voicemail working, nor do I need a PBX in my house but why not? From ccth6600 at gmail.com Thu Nov 26 19:07:49 2020 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2020 09:07:49 +0800 Subject: DEC PDP-8/E wanted - still looking In-Reply-To: <01ef01d6c3de$ef98e8a0$cecab9e0$@gmail.com> References: <01ef01d6c3de$ef98e8a0$cecab9e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Dave, Could you please explain how exactly the VT emulation "kills" the Fortran run time system in OS/8? What is the fault? How do you trigger it? Have you got a Fortran code snippet which reproduces the problem? Was there some previous discussion about it answering my questions above? I have a reasonable level of experience with VHDL and Xilinx ISE so maybe I can fix it if I can reproduce it. Thanks and best regards Tom Hunter On Thu, Nov 26, 2020 at 6:28 PM wrote: > Tom, > > If it has an IOB6120 then it the VT emulation kills the Fortran run time > system in OS8. > > Dave > G4UGM > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Tom Hunter via > > cctalk > > Sent: 26 November 2020 06:02 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Subject: DEC PDP-8/E wanted - still looking > > > > Tom Uban fully built "Spare Time Gizmos" SBC6120 based computer > > complete > > with front-panel and IO board is on its way to me. :-) > > > > I am still looking to buy one of the following PDP-8 models: > > > > PDP-8/F > > PDP-8/E > > PDP-8/L > > PDP-8/I > > PDP-8/M > > > > Dave, Chris, Paul and Robert I am looking forward to getting more details > > from you. > > > > I am happy to pay a reasonable price for the right PDP-8, so a seller > won't be > > disappointed. > > > > Thanks and best regards > > Tom Hunter > > From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Nov 26 19:29:33 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2020 19:29:33 -0600 Subject: NEC NEAX IVS2 PBX with NEAXMAIL AD-8 - hard drive clone issues In-Reply-To: <602a89099617365736972dc4f8d4d4a0@saracom.com> References: <602a89099617365736972dc4f8d4d4a0@saracom.com> Message-ID: <5FC0567D.1010202@pico-systems.com> On 11/26/2020 05:46 PM, keith--- via cctalk wrote: > Hi Everyone, > Not a classic computer but has a 386 embedded in it for > the voice mail. I rescued it from work. We had it rung > for 20 years straight. The > voice mail (AD-8) is basically a 386 running MS-DOS 6.22. > So my concern > is the hard drive. It is the original 2.5 inch IDE IBM > Travelstar 6 GB > drive. It has bee running for 20 years except for a > handful of extended > power outages. Hence while it is working now, I don't > have too much > hope for the future. I just faced this with a pick and place machine running Windows 95, on a 20 year-old IDE hard drive. Almost the first thing I did was get a dual-type USB drive dock and suck the entire drive image off with Linux and a dd command. Then, I cloned the drive to one of the special IDE drives that has a "32 GB clip" jumper option. This option makes the drive look like a 32 GB drive, although it has an actual 80 GB capacity. It is a white label model WL80PATA872. I'm not sure if this system actually needs the 32 GB clip feature, but some old OS'es do. The drive dock is a "ALL IN 1 HDD Docking" which has both SATA and PATA connectors. It also has slots for SD cards and a few other types. It cost $23 delivered. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Nov 26 19:32:44 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2020 19:32:44 -0600 Subject: NEC NEAX IVS2 PBX with NEAXMAIL AD-8 - hard drive clone issues In-Reply-To: <602a89099617365736972dc4f8d4d4a0@saracom.com> References: <602a89099617365736972dc4f8d4d4a0@saracom.com> Message-ID: <5FC0573C.4040203@pico-systems.com> On 11/26/2020 05:46 PM, keith--- via cctalk wrote: > > And yes, I really don't need the voicemail working, nor > do I need a > PBX in my house but why not? > Well, I have set up an Asterisk/FreePBX system with Snom 300 phones at home. Given that phones are fairly essential, I would not want to be running that on extreme legacy gear. (I did run a much older NEC Electra PBX system for a long time, until it died.) Jon From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Nov 26 19:52:22 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2020 18:52:22 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Seeking wisdom from Unix Greybeards In-Reply-To: <20201126232340.GE9609@mcvoy.com> References: <9c1595cc-54a1-8af9-0c2d-083cb04dd97c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <71fdfa2e-1483-4985-3f55-6760b3a84ec0@gmail.com> <20201126182937.GN9589@mcvoy.com> <20201126232340.GE9609@mcvoy.com> Message-ID: <09919e4d-7355-b074-b455-ef5a5f057305@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 11/26/20 4:23 PM, Larry McVoy via cctalk wrote: > I'm sort of wondering why the solution for the problem isn't good > enough. As indicated elsewhere the code generating the output (via print(f) statements) is written in (m)awk. I'm not aware of a good / convenient / nice / pretty / shiny interface between awk and tput, save for shelling out via system(...), which seems less than graceful. I will evaluate the possibility of shelling out via system(...) to tput to get the proper string sequences. There are only about 10 different strings, so a BEGIN{...} could conceptually retrieve the output of tput, store it in variables that are subsequently used in the main body and the END{...}. Shelling / system(...) thousands of times seems less than ideal, no matter ho fast the CPU is. It's just wasteful. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From couryhouse at aol.com Thu Nov 26 22:53:47 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2020 04:53:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: DEC PDP-8/E wanted - still looking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55297953.2019936.1606452827572@mail.yahoo.com> at smecc we have an extra? first model classic-8? ? in a? rack? the? blue? one? that? a? white? desk? section can mount to? ? ?not the Plexiglas surrounds? ?do not? know what it? would? take? to plexi one? but this is in a? rack.? downside? it is at the back of? a warehouse? so it? would? not? be? fast unless? enough? extra? money? was? there? ?for a? work? crew? to? unload... extract? and? reload.?cost??? to? be? determined? ?but? a? full? ?hp series? III? 3000? could? be? part? of? the? fee!ed sharpe? ?smeccIn a message dated 11/25/2020 11:02:16 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:? Tom Uban fully built "Spare Time Gizmos" SBC6120 based computer completewith front-panel and IO board is on its way to me.? :-)?I am still looking to buy one of the following PDP-8 models:?PDP-8/FPDP-8/EPDP-8/LPDP-8/IPDP-8/M?Dave, Chris, Paul and Robert I am looking forward to getting more detailsfrom you.?I am happy to pay a reasonable price for the right PDP-8, so a seller won'tbe disappointed.?Thanks and best regardsTom Hunter From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Nov 27 04:29:12 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2020 10:29:12 -0000 Subject: DEC PDP-8/E wanted - still looking In-Reply-To: References: <01ef01d6c3de$ef98e8a0$cecab9e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <079f01d6c4a8$268aaaa0$739fffe0$@gmail.com> Tom, This is the e-mail I got from Bob Armstrong.. Dave ===================================================================== From: sparetimegizmos at yahoogroups.com [mailto:sparetimegizmos at yahoogroups.com] Sent: 15 July 2015 15:53 To: sparetimegizmos at yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [sparetimegizmos] Any builders of the SBC6120 in the UK The FORTRAN RTS uses interrupts, whereas most OS/8 software does not, and so it reveals bugs that are not otherwise apparent. As I recall the problem was with the VGA/PS2 console implementation in the FPGA. Jim didn?t handle clearing the flags and the interrupt request quite correctly, and it made FORTRAN hang up in an interrupt loop. It should be easy enough to fix by revising the VHDL, but I?m not sure Jim ever did. Make sure you have the latest IOB6120 firmware. FWIW, FORTRAN does work with the SBC6120 onboard serial console enabled so you can use the IOB so long as you?re not using the VGA console. This was an issue for many people because it broke the ADVENTure game, which is also written in FORTRAN :-) Bob From: Tom Hunter Sent: 27 November 2020 01:08 To: Dave Wade Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: DEC PDP-8/E wanted - still looking Hi Dave, Could you please explain how exactly the VT emulation "kills" the Fortran run time system in OS/8? What is the fault? How do you trigger it? Have you got a Fortran code snippet which reproduces the problem? Was there some previous discussion about it answering my questions above? I have a reasonable level of experience with VHDL and Xilinx ISE so maybe I can fix it if I can reproduce it. Thanks and best regards Tom Hunter On Thu, Nov 26, 2020 at 6:28 PM > wrote: Tom, If it has an IOB6120 then it the VT emulation kills the Fortran run time system in OS8. Dave G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk > On Behalf Of Tom Hunter via > cctalk > Sent: 26 November 2020 06:02 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > Subject: DEC PDP-8/E wanted - still looking > > Tom Uban fully built "Spare Time Gizmos" SBC6120 based computer > complete > with front-panel and IO board is on its way to me. :-) > > I am still looking to buy one of the following PDP-8 models: > > PDP-8/F > PDP-8/E > PDP-8/L > PDP-8/I > PDP-8/M > > Dave, Chris, Paul and Robert I am looking forward to getting more details > from you. > > I am happy to pay a reasonable price for the right PDP-8, so a seller won't be > disappointed. > > Thanks and best regards > Tom Hunter From ccth6600 at gmail.com Fri Nov 27 05:07:47 2020 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2020 19:07:47 +0800 Subject: DEC PDP-8/E wanted - still looking In-Reply-To: <079f01d6c4a8$268aaaa0$739fffe0$@gmail.com> References: <01ef01d6c3de$ef98e8a0$cecab9e0$@gmail.com> <079f01d6c4a8$268aaaa0$739fffe0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Dave, Thanks for Bob Armstrong's old email. I have not seen Jim's VHDL code, but I am quite confident I can fix this. Tom Urban wrote that the IOB6120 is misbehaving, so I will have to do some fault finding or debugging anyway. I would appreciate a short Fortran code snippet which reproduces the problem. I don't really want to have to learn how to play Adventure to reproduce this. Games are not my thing except maybe chess. Best regards Tom Hunter On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 6:29 PM wrote: > Tom, > > This is the e-mail I got from Bob Armstrong.. > > Dave > > > > ===================================================================== > > > > *From:* sparetimegizmos at yahoogroups.com [ > mailto:sparetimegizmos at yahoogroups.com ] > *Sent:* 15 July 2015 15:53 > *To:* sparetimegizmos at yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* RE: [sparetimegizmos] Any builders of the SBC6120 in the UK > > > > The FORTRAN RTS uses interrupts, whereas most OS/8 software does not, > and so it reveals bugs that are not otherwise apparent. > > > > As I recall the problem was with the VGA/PS2 console implementation in > the FPGA. Jim didn?t handle clearing the flags and the interrupt request > quite correctly, and it made FORTRAN hang up in an interrupt loop. It > should be easy enough to fix by revising the VHDL, but I?m not sure Jim > ever did. Make sure you have the latest IOB6120 firmware. > > > > FWIW, FORTRAN does work with the SBC6120 onboard serial console enabled > so you can use the IOB so long as you?re not using the VGA console. > > > > This was an issue for many people because it broke the ADVENTure game, > which is also written in FORTRAN :-) > > > > Bob > > > > > > *From:* Tom Hunter > *Sent:* 27 November 2020 01:08 > *To:* Dave Wade > *Cc:* General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > *Subject:* Re: DEC PDP-8/E wanted - still looking > > > > Hi Dave, > > Could you please explain how exactly the VT emulation "kills" the Fortran > run time system in OS/8? > > What is the fault? How do you trigger it? Have you got a Fortran code > snippet which reproduces the problem? > > Was there some previous discussion about it answering my questions above? > > I have a reasonable level of experience with VHDL and Xilinx ISE so maybe > I can fix it if I can reproduce it. > > Thanks and best regards > > Tom Hunter > > > > On Thu, Nov 26, 2020 at 6:28 PM wrote: > > Tom, > > If it has an IOB6120 then it the VT emulation kills the Fortran run time > system in OS8. > > Dave > G4UGM > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Tom Hunter via > > cctalk > > Sent: 26 November 2020 06:02 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Subject: DEC PDP-8/E wanted - still looking > > > > Tom Uban fully built "Spare Time Gizmos" SBC6120 based computer > > complete > > with front-panel and IO board is on its way to me. :-) > > > > I am still looking to buy one of the following PDP-8 models: > > > > PDP-8/F > > PDP-8/E > > PDP-8/L > > PDP-8/I > > PDP-8/M > > > > Dave, Chris, Paul and Robert I am looking forward to getting more details > > from you. > > > > I am happy to pay a reasonable price for the right PDP-8, so a seller > won't be > > disappointed. > > > > Thanks and best regards > > Tom Hunter > > From rick at rickmurphy.net Fri Nov 27 08:43:25 2020 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2020 09:43:25 -0500 Subject: DEC PDP-8/E wanted - still looking In-Reply-To: References: <01ef01d6c3de$ef98e8a0$cecab9e0$@gmail.com> <079f01d6c4a8$268aaaa0$739fffe0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <920f43a9-a4c8-756d-59af-7407e49e05ef@rickmurphy.net> On 11/27/2020 6:07 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > Hi Dave, > > Thanks for Bob Armstrong's old email. > > I have not seen Jim's VHDL code, but I am quite confident I can fix this. > Tom Urban wrote that the IOB6120 is misbehaving, so I will have to do some > fault finding or debugging anyway. > I would appreciate a short Fortran code snippet which reproduces the > problem. > I don't really want to have to learn how to play Adventure to reproduce > this. Games are not my thing except maybe chess. That's pretty simple. A "Hello world" program will probably show it. ??????? INTEGER INPUT(20) ??????? WRITE(4,1) 1?????? FORMAT(1X,'ENTER A STRING') ??????? READ(4,2)INPUT 2?????? FORMAT(20A1) ??????? WRITE(4,3)INPUT 3?????? FORMAT(1X, 'YOU SAID ', 20A1) ??????? STOP ??????? END Create "TEST.FT" with that content, then "EXEC TEST.FT" at the OS/8 dot prompt. If you can successfully enter a string and get a result, then you're probably not having interrupt issues. ??? -Rick From lproven at gmail.com Fri Nov 27 09:12:39 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2020 16:12:39 +0100 Subject: NEC NEAX IVS2 PBX with NEAXMAIL AD-8 - hard drive clone issues In-Reply-To: <602a89099617365736972dc4f8d4d4a0@saracom.com> References: <602a89099617365736972dc4f8d4d4a0@saracom.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Nov 2020 at 01:32, keith--- via cctalk wrote: > I have tried to copy it to an industrial CF > card but no luck. I have used Rufus, Active Disk Image, and Macrium > Reflect. First question: how did you try to copy it? You've not given us anywhere near enough info to try to troubleshoot the issue. ? What did you connect it to? ? How did you connect it? ? What did you try to copy it onto? ? Partitioned how? ? Formatted with what FS, using what tool? ? What OSes did you try? ? What errors did you get? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Nov 27 12:30:13 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2020 10:30:13 -0800 Subject: DEC PDP-8/E wanted - still looking In-Reply-To: References: <01ef01d6c3de$ef98e8a0$cecab9e0$@gmail.com> <079f01d6c4a8$268aaaa0$739fffe0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <731271a4-c97c-4edc-6991-2c86a35dd7c2@jwsss.com> On 11/27/2020 3:07 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > I don't really want to have to learn how to play Adventure to reproduce > this. Games are not my thing except maybe chess. > > Best regards > Tom Hunter Adventure immediately types out a 4 or 5 line "room" description, which is in the initial case a step away from the building outside the cave. any input should hang if this bug occurs from the descriptions of it.? You won't have to do any inputs related to the game as it takes in and analyzes all inputs. I think you get back another description and "nothing happens" if you type something that is rejected. BTW? "Build" "enter building"? and "plugh" or "xyzzy" should get a response from the game if you want more bits of the game executed. thanks Jim From g-wright at att.net Fri Nov 27 23:50:08 2020 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 05:50:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: OSM Zeus 4 Computer References: <145468485.2257254.1606542608282.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <145468485.2257254.1606542608282@mail.yahoo.com> Over the years I have requested help on a Zues 4 I have here but only ran into a dead end street.It would error on boot. Today I booted it up and is came up? for some odd reason..? OSM Computer Corp.? Multi-User System.? 4.01/4.00? 01-19-1983? Muse 04.50 running I still can't find much on The OS. looks a little like MPM? Dir lists what looks like CPM/MPM type files. I do see PIP listed but would like to get a Back UP if possible.? Not sure how log the Drive will Keep working. Any manuals or the like out there on the OS? "muse" Or the computer Here is a Picture of one? http://computersheds.uk/fixed_pages/osm_zeus_4.html Thanks,? Jerry From syseng at gfsys.co.uk Fri Nov 27 17:45:00 2020 From: syseng at gfsys.co.uk (Chris Quayle) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2020 23:45:00 +0000 Subject: NEC NEAX IVS2 PBX with NEAXMAIL AD-8 - hard drive clone, issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5FC18F7C.9020709@gfsys.co.uk> The way I would do that is to use a Linux / unix machine and one of the cheap ebay usb to ide adapters, then use dd to image the whole drive to a file. That should copy block, including the boot block and partition table. Use the reverse process to image the file back to another drive... Chris From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sat Nov 28 01:30:27 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2020 23:30:27 -0800 Subject: OSM Zeus 4 Computer In-Reply-To: <145468485.2257254.1606542608282@mail.yahoo.com> References: <145468485.2257254.1606542608282.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <145468485.2257254.1606542608282@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 11/27/2020 9:50 PM, Jerry Wright via cctalk wrote: > Over the years I have requested help on a Zues 4 I have here but only ran into a dead end street.It would error on boot. Today I booted it up and is came up? for some odd reason.. > > OSM Computer Corp.? Multi-User System.? 4.01/4.00? 01-19-1983? Muse 04.50 running > I still can't find much on The OS. looks a little like MPM? Dir lists what looks like CPM/MPM type files. > I do see PIP listed but would like to get a Back UP if possible.? Not sure how log the Drive will Keep working. > Any manuals or the like out there on the OS? "muse" Or the computer > > Here is a Picture of one? http://computersheds.uk/fixed_pages/osm_zeus_4.html > Thanks,? Jerry > Consider getting one of DAve G's mfm emulators if that is the drive type, and imaging the drive.? You can then replace the drive in the system with that and store the original. thanks Jim https://www.pdp8.net/mfm/mfm.shtml From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Nov 28 10:05:24 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 10:05:24 -0600 Subject: NEC NEAX IVS2 PBX with NEAXMAIL AD-8 - hard drive clone, issues In-Reply-To: <5FC18F7C.9020709@gfsys.co.uk> References: <5FC18F7C.9020709@gfsys.co.uk> Message-ID: <5FC27544.7020508@pico-systems.com> On 11/27/2020 05:45 PM, Chris Quayle via cctalk wrote: > > > The way I would do that is to use a Linux / unix machine > and one of the > cheap ebay usb to ide adapters, then use dd to image the > whole drive > to a file. That should copy block, including the boot > block and > partition table. Use the reverse process to image the file > back to > another drive... This is exactly what I did, it is working great. Jon From keith at saracom.com Sat Nov 28 13:30:40 2020 From: keith at saracom.com (keith at saracom.com) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 14:30:40 -0500 Subject: NEC NEAX IVS2 PBX with NEAXMAIL AD-8 - hard drive clone, issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0f22ced593ab113b9d1a661e75f44e02@saracom.com> Hi Chris, I will give Linux and DD a try. I do have an USB to 2.5 inch IDE adapter. thanks Keith On 2020-11-28 13:00, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > The way I would do that is to use a Linux / unix machine and one of the > cheap ebay usb to ide adapters, then use dd to image the whole drive > to a file. That should copy block, including the boot block and > partition table. Use the reverse process to image the file back to > another drive... > > Chris From keith at saracom.com Sat Nov 28 13:36:12 2020 From: keith at saracom.com (keith at saracom.com) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2020 14:36:12 -0500 Subject: NEC NEAX IVS2 PBX with NEAXMAIL AD-8 - hard drive clone, issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Liam, As stated in my OP, I was using Windows 10 and USB adapters. I used Rufus, Active Disk Image, and Macrium Reflect programs to copy it an image file and then back to the CF. They are supposed to create exact images of the drives but I think they do not. Of course it could be something with my CF to USB adapter. As far as errors, as stated in my OP, "Since the voicemail card is running headless, I can't see the error messages." The only way I know of a successful boot, is one LED turns green and then I can call in to the VoiceMail card. I am going to try a Linux machine and DD next. > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2020 16:12:39 +0100 > From: Liam Proven > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: NEC NEAX IVS2 PBX with NEAXMAIL AD-8 - hard drive clone > issues > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On Fri, 27 Nov 2020 at 01:32, keith--- via cctalk wrote: > >> I have tried to copy it to an industrial CF >> card but no luck. I have used Rufus, Active Disk Image, and Macrium >> Reflect. > > First question: how did you try to copy it? > > You've not given us anywhere near enough info to try to troubleshoot the issue. > > ? What did you connect it to? > ? How did you connect it? > ? What did you try to copy it onto? > ? Partitioned how? > ? Formatted with what FS, using what tool? > ? What OSes did you try? > ? What errors did you get? From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Sun Nov 29 11:29:05 2020 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2020 11:29:05 -0600 Subject: circuit cellar magazines In-Reply-To: <731271a4-c97c-4edc-6991-2c86a35dd7c2@jwsss.com> References: <01ef01d6c3de$ef98e8a0$cecab9e0$@gmail.com> <079f01d6c4a8$268aaaa0$739fffe0$@gmail.com> <731271a4-c97c-4edc-6991-2c86a35dd7c2@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <3e72ebce-93d9-86a8-ded5-96498a0f98b6@figureeightbrewing.com> I'm sorting through my stuff and have Circuit Cellar magazines issue 54-244 (missing 168 and 210). Is anyone interested in these for $20+shipping? --tom From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Sun Nov 29 11:34:45 2020 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2020 11:34:45 -0600 Subject: DEC VT1000 and VXT2000 In-Reply-To: <731271a4-c97c-4edc-6991-2c86a35dd7c2@jwsss.com> References: <01ef01d6c3de$ef98e8a0$cecab9e0$@gmail.com> <079f01d6c4a8$268aaaa0$739fffe0$@gmail.com> <731271a4-c97c-4edc-6991-2c86a35dd7c2@jwsss.com> Message-ID: I'm sorting through my stuff and have a DEC VT1000, VXT2000 and a few related boards. Condition is unknown. Pics available on request. Any interest? --tom From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Sun Nov 29 11:36:54 2020 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2020 11:36:54 -0600 Subject: circuit cellar magazines In-Reply-To: <731271a4-c97c-4edc-6991-2c86a35dd7c2@jwsss.com> References: <01ef01d6c3de$ef98e8a0$cecab9e0$@gmail.com> <079f01d6c4a8$268aaaa0$739fffe0$@gmail.com> <731271a4-c97c-4edc-6991-2c86a35dd7c2@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <9f29cb60-93c2-840d-ac18-fa4fed1fe549@figureeightbrewing.com> I'm sorting through my stuff and have Heathkit H89A computer. Last time I messed (20 years ago) it showed signs of life, but was not fully functional. I do have a manual for it. Pics upon request. Any interest? --tom From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Sun Nov 29 11:37:38 2020 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2020 11:37:38 -0600 Subject: Heathkit H89A (was accidentally circuit cellar...) In-Reply-To: <731271a4-c97c-4edc-6991-2c86a35dd7c2@jwsss.com> References: <01ef01d6c3de$ef98e8a0$cecab9e0$@gmail.com> <079f01d6c4a8$268aaaa0$739fffe0$@gmail.com> <731271a4-c97c-4edc-6991-2c86a35dd7c2@jwsss.com> Message-ID: I'm sorting through my stuff and have Heathkit H89A computer. Last time I messed (20 years ago) it showed signs of life, but was not fully functional. I do have a manual for it. Pics upon request. Any interest? --tom From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Sun Nov 29 11:53:22 2020 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2020 11:53:22 -0600 Subject: sun microsystems sunfire v100 In-Reply-To: <731271a4-c97c-4edc-6991-2c86a35dd7c2@jwsss.com> References: <01ef01d6c3de$ef98e8a0$cecab9e0$@gmail.com> <079f01d6c4a8$268aaaa0$739fffe0$@gmail.com> <731271a4-c97c-4edc-6991-2c86a35dd7c2@jwsss.com> Message-ID: I'm sorting through my stuff and have two Sunfire V100s. I had one working 20 years ago and don't recall the state of the other. Current status unknown. Pics upon request. Any interest? --tom From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Sun Nov 29 11:54:17 2020 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2020 11:54:17 -0600 Subject: xylogics annex three terminal server In-Reply-To: <731271a4-c97c-4edc-6991-2c86a35dd7c2@jwsss.com> References: <01ef01d6c3de$ef98e8a0$cecab9e0$@gmail.com> <079f01d6c4a8$268aaaa0$739fffe0$@gmail.com> <731271a4-c97c-4edc-6991-2c86a35dd7c2@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <58b29bfa-966e-2855-39e1-73cf71b756fd@figureeightbrewing.com> I'm sorting through my stuff and have a Xylogics Annex Three terminal server (w/cables). Complete, but status unknown. Pics upon request. Any interest? --tom From shumaker at att.net Sun Nov 29 16:21:35 2020 From: shumaker at att.net (s shumaker) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2020 14:21:35 -0800 Subject: Heathkit H89A (was accidentally circuit cellar...) In-Reply-To: References: <01ef01d6c3de$ef98e8a0$cecab9e0$@gmail.com> <079f01d6c4a8$268aaaa0$739fffe0$@gmail.com> <731271a4-c97c-4edc-6991-2c86a35dd7c2@jwsss.com> Message-ID: where are you? Steve On 11/29/2020 9:37 AM, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: > I'm sorting through my stuff and have Heathkit H89A computer. Last time I messed (20 years ago) it > showed signs of life, but was not fully functional. I do have a manual for it. > Pics upon request. > Any interest? > > --tom > > From lproven at gmail.com Sun Nov 29 16:28:48 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2020 23:28:48 +0100 Subject: NEC NEAX IVS2 PBX with NEAXMAIL AD-8 - hard drive clone, issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 28 Nov 2020 at 23:33, keith--- via cctalk wrote: > > Hi Liam, > > As stated in my OP, I was using Windows 10 and USB adapters. *Goes back and re-reads* Ah, OK. I did not follow before. I think Windows is a really poor choice for this. Worse, it might have tried to mount the filesystem R/W and conceivably damaged it further. Rufus I use for writing Windows ISOs to USB, but nothing else. I don't think it's a suitable tool for this at all. > Active Disk Image, and Macrium Reflect programs Never heard of them, I'm afraid. I used to have Windows tools for this stuff, 2 decades ago before I stopped using it unless someone was paying me to, but they won't run on Win10. > to copy it an > image file and then back to the CF. They are supposed to create exact > images of the drives but I think they do not. Of course it could be > something with my CF to USB adapter. It could be-- but it could also be that they're trying to copy a mounted FS or something. > As far as errors, as stated in my OP, "Since the voicemail card is > running headless, I can't see the error messages." The only way I know > of a successful boot, is one LED turns green and then I can call in to > the VoiceMail card. Couldn't you try to boot the image in a VM? > I am going to try a Linux machine and DD next. Much better plan. If there are any errors on the drive, I would recommend GNU ``ddrescue``. Do not confuse this with the older (but still maintained) dd_rescue which is the product that inspired the GNU one; the newer one is more capable. It images but skips and continues on error, whereas ``dd`` will simply fail. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Nov 29 17:01:12 2020 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2020 00:01:12 +0100 Subject: ISO earl TI DSP kits In-Reply-To: <20200323022900.GA5526@hugin3> References: <20200323022900.GA5526@hugin3> Message-ID: <20201129230112.GC2495@beast.freibergnet.de> David Gesswein via cctalk wrote: > Until they are up on bitsavers you can get them from here. > > http://www.pdp8online.com/misc/TMS320_TMS340.zip > > On Sun, Mar 08, 2020 at 01:04:41PM -0400, emanuel stiebler wrote: > > On 2020-03-07 14:38, David Gesswein via cctalk wrote: > > > > > I found around 70 disks for the TMS320C30 and TMS340x0. I can read these > > > Let me know your current desires for archiving such as IMD or files, text label > > > info or disk pictures etc. Do you want the TMS340 graphics processor disk > > > images also? > > > > Please share those ... > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ Is there a chance that someone will find some TMS320C25 (TMS320C2x) dev tools? The TI Datasheet lists: Package P/N Macro Assembler/Linker TMDS3242850-02 Simulator TMDS3242851-02 C Compiler TMDX3242855-02 Digital Filter Design Package (DFDP) DFDP-IBM002 DSP Software Library TMDC3240812-12 (only listet the pc-dos versions, vms, ultrix and SUN versions existed too) I still have 14 pcs TMS320C25 laying around here and want to play with them. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederran, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 37292 709779 Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Nov 30 01:34:30 2020 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2020 08:34:30 +0100 (CET) Subject: NEC NEAX IVS2 PBX with NEAXMAIL AD-8 - hard drive clone, issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Nov 2020, Liam Proven wrote: > If there are any errors on the drive, I would recommend GNU > ``ddrescue``. Do not confuse this with the older (but still > maintained) dd_rescue which is the product that inspired the GNU one; > the newer one is more capable. > > It images but skips and continues on error, whereas ``dd`` will simply fail. Without havingh read the man page of ddrescue, does it do more magic than "dd conv=noerror,sync" ? Christian From imp at bsdimp.com Mon Nov 30 03:03:54 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2020 02:03:54 -0700 Subject: NEC NEAX IVS2 PBX with NEAXMAIL AD-8 - hard drive clone, issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 30, 2020, 12:34 AM Christian Corti via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sun, 29 Nov 2020, Liam Proven wrote: > > If there are any errors on the drive, I would recommend GNU > > ``ddrescue``. Do not confuse this with the older (but still > > maintained) dd_rescue which is the product that inspired the GNU one; > > the newer one is more capable. > > > > It images but skips and continues on error, whereas ``dd`` will simply > fail. > > Without havingh read the man page of ddrescue, does it do more magic than > "dd conv=noerror,sync" ? > Yes. It retries with different block sizes to recover stubborn to read data. It keeps track so you can hammer for days or weeks on the stubborn bits of the disk Warner > From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Nov 30 04:52:32 2020 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2020 03:52:32 -0700 Subject: Radio Shack 8MB hard disk for Model II Message-ID: I had occasion to look at the service manual for the Radio Shack 26-4150 8MB hard disk which was used with the Model II (and potentially could be used on 12, 16, 16B or 6000). Note that this drive is not compatible with the Model I, 3, or 4, and the cable wiring between the computer and the controller (inside the drive box) is entirely different than what was used on the later 5, 12, 15, 35, and 70 MB drives. The Model II host adapter for the 8MB drive thus is only useful with the 8MB drive, and vice versa. There were later Model II host adapters that could be used with the 12, 15, 35, and 70 MB drives, which were also useful on the Model I, 3, and 4. Anyhow, I discovered that according to the documentation, the 8 bit data bus between the host interface and controller uses 8T26 bidirectional buffers at each end, which are rated to sink up to 24 mA, but the schematics show that Radio Shack put 220/330 ohm terminators on the data bus lines at BOTH ends of the cable! That requires the 8T26 to sink as much as 55 mA, which means that its logic zero output voltage is likely to exceed its normal rating. At the very least, this will result in reduced noise immunity. I don't have an 8MB host interface or drive in hand to confirm, but the photos I've found online do show the resistor networks on both ends. The controller (inside the drive box) is a modified version of a WD1000, configured for use with the 8-inch SA1004 drive, which operates at 4.34 Mbps, NOT 5.00 Mbps like 5 1/4" drives. Aside from that, it has a different host pinout than a normal WD1000 (or than the later Tandy controllers), and has extra circuitry for dealing with write protection. Electrically, the host interface is otherwise the same as the WD1000. Normally the data bus for the WD1000 would only be single-terminated at the controller end. That is in fact what Radio Shack did on all of the later host adapters. From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Nov 30 13:45:50 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2020 19:45:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Heathkit H89A (was accidentally circuit cellar...) In-Reply-To: References: <01ef01d6c3de$ef98e8a0$cecab9e0$@gmail.com> <079f01d6c4a8$268aaaa0$739fffe0$@gmail.com> <731271a4-c97c-4edc-6991-2c86a35dd7c2@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <536704161.2890968.1606765550683@mail.yahoo.com> ? TOM? WHAT? IS YOUR LOCATION? WHAT }T? IS? PHYSICAL? CONDITION? GREAT! A H89!?'WE HAVE? H8? and H11? and HERO robot? Computer in museum? at SMECC? ?adding? the H89 would? be? nice!?We? also? do need? a? H9 terminal i? think? the? number is? to go with? H8? computer.? ?and? GASP!? one? of? the? heath analog? computers? should? we? be so lucky!?Ed Sharpe Archivist for SMECC?On 11/29/2020 9:37 AM, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: > I'm sorting through my stuff and have Heathkit H89A computer. Last time I messed (20 years ago) it > showed signs of life, but was not fully functional. I do have a manual for it. > Pics upon request. > Any interest? > > --tom > > From jharper at secureoutcomes-hq.com Mon Nov 30 06:34:09 2020 From: jharper at secureoutcomes-hq.com (Jack Harper) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2020 05:34:09 -0700 Subject: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: <20201120224657.GB29231@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <20201130123412.DE30427508@mx1.ezwind.net> How do I unsubsidized?Terminal cancer here?Best to to allJackEvergreen? coloradoSent via the Samsung Galaxy S20+ 5G, an AT&T 5G smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Peter Corlett via cctalk Date: 11/20/20 15:47 (GMT-07:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: The best hard drives?? On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 09:36:00AM -0500, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:[...]>>> It also turns out that ?1 ? ?1 ? $1.> Close, but no cigar. I just bought something from Europe 3 days ago.This rule of thumb only applies to stuff imported from the USA to Europe, orfrom anywhere to the UK. It also only applies to prices quoted to consumers.> Exchange rate: $ 1 USD = ? 0.8111 EURSince the actual rate has been about ?0.845 for a few months now, I guess yourbank charges 4% over the mid-market rate. That seems a bit high.However, as you surely know, the EU applies tarrifs on imports, and individualcountries also charge consumers VAT. Tariffs tend to be fairly nominal or zerounless there's a trade war going on, whereas VAT varies between 15% and 25%.So if I import a $100 widget, even if it has a zero tariff, I still get to pay21% Dutch VAT which brings it to $121, or ?102. Therefore $1 ? ?1.That same $100 widget imported into the UK becomes $120 due to the 20% VATrate, which comes to ?90, but the UK has its own self-inflicted problems whichcause importers loads of extra costs and ?100 is easily believable.If I take off my consumer hat and put on my businessman hat, I can import stuffwithout paying VAT and then it is just the $100, ?84.50, or ?75 suggested bythe exchange rate. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Nov 30 19:21:49 2020 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 01:21:49 +0000 Subject: Radio Shack 8MB hard disk for Model II In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is there a terminator on both ends. If not it is a static 15 ma. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Eric Smith via cctalk Sent: Monday, November 30, 2020 2:52 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Radio Shack 8MB hard disk for Model II I had occasion to look at the service manual for the Radio Shack 26-4150 8MB hard disk which was used with the Model II (and potentially could be used on 12, 16, 16B or 6000). Note that this drive is not compatible with the Model I, 3, or 4, and the cable wiring between the computer and the controller (inside the drive box) is entirely different than what was used on the later 5, 12, 15, 35, and 70 MB drives. The Model II host adapter for the 8MB drive thus is only useful with the 8MB drive, and vice versa. There were later Model II host adapters that could be used with the 12, 15, 35, and 70 MB drives, which were also useful on the Model I, 3, and 4. Anyhow, I discovered that according to the documentation, the 8 bit data bus between the host interface and controller uses 8T26 bidirectional buffers at each end, which are rated to sink up to 24 mA, but the schematics show that Radio Shack put 220/330 ohm terminators on the data bus lines at BOTH ends of the cable! That requires the 8T26 to sink as much as 55 mA, which means that its logic zero output voltage is likely to exceed its normal rating. At the very least, this will result in reduced noise immunity. I don't have an 8MB host interface or drive in hand to confirm, but the photos I've found online do show the resistor networks on both ends. The controller (inside the drive box) is a modified version of a WD1000, configured for use with the 8-inch SA1004 drive, which operates at 4.34 Mbps, NOT 5.00 Mbps like 5 1/4" drives. Aside from that, it has a different host pinout than a normal WD1000 (or than the later Tandy controllers), and has extra circuitry for dealing with write protection. Electrically, the host interface is otherwise the same as the WD1000. Normally the data bus for the WD1000 would only be single-terminated at the controller end. That is in fact what Radio Shack did on all of the later host adapters. From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Mon Nov 30 20:19:11 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2020 18:19:11 -0800 Subject: OT: Samsung Phone email Strikes again WAS: RE: The best hard drives?? In-Reply-To: <20201130123412.DE30427508@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <20201120224657.GB29231@mooli.org.uk> <20201130123412.DE30427508@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <010b01d6c788$5c4e18b0$14ea4a10$@net> > How do I unsubsidized?Terminal cancer here Best to to allJackEvergreen > coloradoSent via the Samsung Galaxy S20+ 5G, an AT&T 5G smartphone Good to see my emails are not the only ones mangles by the default Samsung email client. ;) Still trying to find an acceptable replacement... -Ali