From joezatarski at gmail.com Sun Mar 1 10:15:42 2020 From: joezatarski at gmail.com (Joseph Zatarski) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 10:15:42 -0600 Subject: stuff for sale - recent move Message-ID: <532a1e6b-2f89-49c6-77fc-a5d72d9610d4@gmail.com> Hello Everyone, I recently moved and just got my storage unit of stuff transported to the new house. I'm starting to go through it all because I know there's a good mixture of stuff I want and stuff I don't want but may be useful to someone else. I've started inventorying a lot of the stuff I'd like to pass on here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19vhF-o6vx9g7l-D8cvLJ5OPJzpdmU9PTTknbxY-mY58/edit?usp=sharing I'm not looking to get much out of any of this, pretty much just recover whatever I paid for it plus effort for shipping (generally should be 50% or less ebay value, plus cost of shipping). Alternatively, I'm in the west suburbs of chicago if anyone local wants to pick something up. Quick run down of what I've got posted so far: -a couple DEC Alpha items (RAM and SCSI caddy stuff, possibly a couple drives later) -HP jetdirects for laserjet 4/5 (standalone to come later) -a KVM or two (more to come) -Mac network cards (nubus and one for IIsi or SE/30) as well as a couple other accessories (Dayna Mini Etherprint, AAUI transceiver, more accessories to come) -misc cables/adapters, if you have something specific in mind, let me know -PSU - mostly just some random ATX PSUs -a few telephone accessories (more to come) -ISA, PCI, PCI-X, PCIe cards (network, video, SCSI, FC) -possibly notable, Compaq ELSA GLoria Synergy graphics cards for Alpha PWS? If anyone has further questions, wants pics, more description, testing of item before sale, etc. feel free to contact me on or off list (if on list, please CC me, I'll see it quicker) or on Freenode IRC (nick is joe_z). As I recently moved, I don't have 24/7 internet available as of right now, but once I do I'll have a bouncer on IRC 24/7. Best Regards, Joe Z From athornton at gmail.com Sun Mar 1 15:06:17 2020 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 14:06:17 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 65, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Feb 29, 2020, at 11:00 AM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > >> Anyway, my Googling turned up nothing on the OS, although I did find a Robert Knight at Princeton, but no information on stuff he's done. I will likely email him to ask about it, but wanted to ask here first if anyone knows anything about it. >> When you do, please tell him Adam Thornton says ?hi.? I worked for him at Princeton for a while. IIRC he wrote the LPR RFC. Adam From jgeorge at nbi6.com Sun Mar 1 17:21:45 2020 From: jgeorge at nbi6.com (Joe George) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 18:21:45 -0500 Subject: Wang 2200 Diskettes Message-ID: <2E04766A-0F83-4193-B224-8D6A17A2D1E8@nbi6.com> I bought some 8? diskette cases and they arrived with a bunch of old software for a Wang 2200 in them. One of the boxes HP was badly water damaged, and the diskettes are shot, but those look like backups of some company software. Diskettes that look like they may still viable include 2 marked ?WANG 2200 MVP Operating System v2.6.2? and one marked ?2200 MVP (Multi-user) BASIC-2 System Platter Release 2.5?. There?s also a box of diskettes of what look like source for something ?GBS Mod 1 Diskette Version?. I?m not a Wang person and I can?t use these diskettes for anything, does anyone on the list have any interest in them? Is the software worth rescuing or is it already archived somewhere? If anyone wants them, drop me an email off list. Gimme a couple of bucks to cover shipping and I?ll send you all the ones that look viable. Joe From steven at malikoff.com Mon Mar 2 06:40:01 2020 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 22:40:01 +1000 Subject: What is this System 360 peripheral/maintenance console? Message-ID: <29a0ec58d0f59a5ec5f799b192586e50.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> I was watching this video on highway construction in the 1960's (as you do) and noticed what appears to be a System 360 console, that I couldn't place. Presumably it's some peripheral or CE maintenance panel. I didn't find it in the Physical Planning Guide (not that that's comprehensive) nor from perusing google images. I'm a little curious as to what it is. It's at 23:13 in https://youtu.be/apWSa6QlrTg?t=1393 Thanks Steve. From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 08:02:18 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 09:02:18 -0500 Subject: What is this System 360 peripheral/maintenance console? In-Reply-To: <29a0ec58d0f59a5ec5f799b192586e50.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <29a0ec58d0f59a5ec5f799b192586e50.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: I had something very similar to this. http://vintagecomputer.net/ibm/360/scp/ Obviously not the same thing, but there must have been many similar-looking grey devices engineers took with them to diagnose/install/upgrade/test 360 components. Bill On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 7:40 AM Steve Malikoff via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I was watching this video on highway construction in the 1960's (as you > do) and noticed what appears to be > a System 360 console, that I couldn't place. Presumably it's some > peripheral or CE maintenance panel. I didn't > find it in the Physical Planning Guide (not that that's comprehensive) nor > from perusing google images. > I'm a little curious as to what it is. > It's at 23:13 in https://youtu.be/apWSa6QlrTg?t=1393 > Thanks > > Steve. > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 08:02:21 2020 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 09:02:21 -0500 Subject: What is this System 360 peripheral/maintenance console? In-Reply-To: <29a0ec58d0f59a5ec5f799b192586e50.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <29a0ec58d0f59a5ec5f799b192586e50.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: 1800. -- Will On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 7:40 AM Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > > I was watching this video on highway construction in the 1960's (as you do) and noticed what appears to be > a System 360 console, that I couldn't place. Presumably it's some peripheral or CE maintenance panel. I didn't > find it in the Physical Planning Guide (not that that's comprehensive) nor from perusing google images. > I'm a little curious as to what it is. > It's at 23:13 in https://youtu.be/apWSa6QlrTg?t=1393 > Thanks > > Steve. > From gordon+cctalk at drogon.net Mon Mar 2 03:08:04 2020 From: gordon+cctalk at drogon.net (Gordon Henderson) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 09:08:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Westward In-Reply-To: <552b689ab405a503b4eec31e4c93077170b14616.camel@agj.net> References: <552b689ab405a503b4eec31e4c93077170b14616.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Feb 2020, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk wrote: > fre 2020-02-21 klockan 14:17 +0100 skrev Christian Corti via cctalk: >> Hi, >> I'm looking for information about Westward graphics workstations, >> especially for the 2019 (from about 1983) and the 2220 (about 1987). >> >> Christian > > I believe that is the type of terminals that my school (Sk?vde Sweden) > had when i was there in 1987-88. (PRIME 9955 II and Medusa) Similar here - the uni I was at in Scotland had one of those big Primes and a single Westward terminal running the CAD/CAM (Medusa) stuff. Just a big colour serial temrinal by todays standards, but must have cost a small fortune back then. It had a graphics tablet with a 4 button puck with magnifier to help accurate digitisation of existing engineering drawings as I recall. Gordon From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 09:32:30 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 10:32:30 -0500 Subject: What is this System 360 peripheral/maintenance console? In-Reply-To: References: <29a0ec58d0f59a5ec5f799b192586e50.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: oh, not 360? On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 9:02 AM William Donzelli via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > 1800. > > -- > Will > > On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 7:40 AM Steve Malikoff via cctalk > wrote: > > > > I was watching this video on highway construction in the 1960's (as you > do) and noticed what appears to be > > a System 360 console, that I couldn't place. Presumably it's some > peripheral or CE maintenance panel. I didn't > > find it in the Physical Planning Guide (not that that's comprehensive) > nor from perusing google images. > > I'm a little curious as to what it is. > > It's at 23:13 in https://youtu.be/apWSa6QlrTg?t=1393 > > Thanks > > > > Steve. > > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 2 09:51:03 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 07:51:03 -0800 Subject: What is this System 360 peripheral/maintenance console? In-Reply-To: References: <29a0ec58d0f59a5ec5f799b192586e50.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: Will's right - the 16-bit register display should have been a tipoff. See http://www.dvq.com/1800/1800.htm for lots of images. 1800->industrial control version of the 1130. --Chuck On 3/2/20 7:32 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > oh, not 360? From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Mar 2 11:30:24 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2020 11:30:24 -0600 Subject: What is this System 360 peripheral/maintenance console? In-Reply-To: References: <29a0ec58d0f59a5ec5f799b192586e50.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <5E5D42B0.1060809@pico-systems.com> On 03/02/2020 09:51 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Will's right - the 16-bit register display should have been a tipoff. http://www.dvq.com/1800/scaled/paneln.jpg Yes, although the 360/20, /22, /25 and 360/40 were all 16 bits internally. Jon From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 11:36:41 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 12:36:41 -0500 Subject: What is this System 360 peripheral/maintenance console? In-Reply-To: References: <29a0ec58d0f59a5ec5f799b192586e50.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 10:51 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Will's right - the 16-bit register display should have been a tipoff. > > See http://www.dvq.com/1800/1800.htm for lots of images. > > 1800->industrial control version of the 1130. > > --Chuck > > > > Thank you, I will update how I have it documented on the web site. I have a lot of 1800 docs, maybe I can find the actual hardware there. Bill From dave at 661.org Mon Mar 2 23:24:54 2020 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 05:24:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Panda TOPS20 networking trouble Message-ID: I'm having loads of trouble getting networking going with the Panda Distribution of TOPS20 and KLH10. Could someone point me to a step-by-step guide on doing this? -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From 821 at 128.ca Mon Mar 2 12:04:28 2020 From: 821 at 128.ca (Kevin Lee) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 18:04:28 +0000 Subject: stuff for sale - recent move In-Reply-To: <532a1e6b-2f89-49c6-77fc-a5d72d9610d4@gmail.com> References: <532a1e6b-2f89-49c6-77fc-a5d72d9610d4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2F5D307C-CBD3-48B8-BA32-C8282E660CDE@128.ca> Hi. I forgot to mention it?s an eye phone 11 PRO 256gb. Thanks > On 1 Mar 2020, at 17:58, Joseph Zatarski via cctalk wrote: > > ?Hello Everyone, > > I recently moved and just got my storage unit of stuff transported to the new house. I'm starting to go through it all because I know there's a good mixture of stuff I want and stuff I don't want but may be useful to someone else. > > I've started inventorying a lot of the stuff I'd like to pass on here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19vhF-o6vx9g7l-D8cvLJ5OPJzpdmU9PTTknbxY-mY58/edit?usp=sharing > > I'm not looking to get much out of any of this, pretty much just recover whatever I paid for it plus effort for shipping (generally should be 50% or less ebay value, plus cost of shipping). Alternatively, I'm in the west suburbs of chicago if anyone local wants to pick something up. > > Quick run down of what I've got posted so far: > -a couple DEC Alpha items (RAM and SCSI caddy stuff, possibly a couple drives later) > -HP jetdirects for laserjet 4/5 (standalone to come later) > -a KVM or two (more to come) > -Mac network cards (nubus and one for IIsi or SE/30) as well as a couple other accessories (Dayna Mini Etherprint, AAUI transceiver, more accessories to come) > -misc cables/adapters, if you have something specific in mind, let me know > -PSU - mostly just some random ATX PSUs > -a few telephone accessories (more to come) > -ISA, PCI, PCI-X, PCIe cards (network, video, SCSI, FC) > -possibly notable, Compaq ELSA GLoria Synergy graphics cards for Alpha PWS? > > If anyone has further questions, wants pics, more description, testing of item before sale, etc. feel free to contact me on or off list (if on list, please CC me, I'll see it quicker) or on Freenode IRC (nick is joe_z). > > As I recently moved, I don't have 24/7 internet available as of right now, but once I do I'll have a bouncer on IRC 24/7. > > Best Regards, > Joe Z From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 3 01:02:29 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 23:02:29 -0800 Subject: Wang 2200 Diskettes In-Reply-To: <2E04766A-0F83-4193-B224-8D6A17A2D1E8@nbi6.com> References: <2E04766A-0F83-4193-B224-8D6A17A2D1E8@nbi6.com> Message-ID: On 3/1/20 3:21 PM, Joe George via cctalk wrote: > > I bought some 8? diskette cases and they arrived with a bunch of old software for a Wang 2200 in them. One of the boxes HP was badly water damaged, and the diskettes are shot, but those look like backups of some company software. Diskettes that look like they may still viable include 2 marked ?WANG 2200 MVP Operating System v2.6.2? and one marked ?2200 MVP (Multi-user) BASIC-2 System Platter Release 2.5?. There?s also a box of diskettes of what look like source for something ?GBS Mod 1 Diskette Version?. > > I?m not a Wang person and I can?t use these diskettes for anything, does anyone on the list have any interest in them? Is the software worth rescuing or is it already archived somewhere? > > If anyone wants them, drop me an email off list. Gimme a couple of bucks to cover shipping and I?ll send you all the ones that look viable. Those would be the hard-sector ones, right? Just seeing if I remember correctly. --Chuck From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Tue Mar 3 02:26:50 2020 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Veit, Holger) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 09:26:50 +0100 Subject: For those with 6809 experience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3954fd25-0612-3a33-2539-88dcf6435221@iais.fraunhofer.de> Am 01.03.2020 um 00:42 schrieb Jim Brain via cctalk: > Looking at the datasheet for the 6809 (specifically, the 6809E that > needs incoming quadrature clock), I read that !HALT can be asserted > 200nS (for 1MHz part) before falling Q and the CPU will finish the > existing instruction and then go into a HALT state as long as the HALT > line is low during the falling edge of Q. > > That's the store from the datasheet, but when I am testing it, I see > that, even if I pull HALT low at the very beginning of the last cycle > of an instruction, the 6809 will not acknowledge the HALT until > executing the next instruction. > > My logic is watching for IO address $ff61.? When found, it drops Q > > so, to start the HALT condition, I need only: > > lda $ff61 > > Not that the trigger is being performed by the code, so the current > instruction (the lda) should complete and then the CPU should go into > HiZ.? What I see is: > > lda $ff61 > > lda $ff60 <- the next instruction > > executed, and THEN the CPU goes into HiZ. > > I can deal with this (Yes, I should just look at BS=BA=1, which tell > when to safely use the bus, but I don't have access to those signals > for this project), but I thought I'd see if this was known by all, or > if there is something I am missing. > > Jim > What are you trying to accomplish? I guess you are using $FF61 as a trigger to start a DMA transfer, or alike. I've seen something like this in code already, so it might have been be known in developer circles for long. The plain simple fix apparently was to add one or two NOPs after the initiating address reference. The hardware price could be an additional flipflop and another comparator. Detecting $FF61 wil arm the FF and a following NOP on databus will initiate the operation. If no NOP follows, the FF is reset.However, the latter situation should not occur when all instances of LDA $FF61 are properly followed by NOP. -- Holger From steven at malikoff.com Tue Mar 3 04:40:29 2020 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 20:40:29 +1000 Subject: What is this System 360 peripheral/maintenance console? In-Reply-To: References: <29a0ec58d0f59a5ec5f799b192586e50.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: > On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 10:51 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < >> Will's right - the 16-bit register display should have been a tipoff. >> >> See http://www.dvq.com/1800/1800.htm for lots of images. >> 1800->industrial control version of the 1130. >> >> --Chuck >> > Thank you, I will update how I have it documented on the web site. I have > a lot of 1800 docs, maybe I can find the actual hardware there. > Bill Thanks everyone. I saw the 360 black and chrome knobs and black tipped switches and started searching '360' things, hence the question. Steve. From lproven at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 05:28:13 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 12:28:13 +0100 Subject: stuff for sale - recent move In-Reply-To: <2F5D307C-CBD3-48B8-BA32-C8282E660CDE@128.ca> References: <532a1e6b-2f89-49c6-77fc-a5d72d9610d4@gmail.com> <2F5D307C-CBD3-48B8-BA32-C8282E660CDE@128.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Mar 2020 at 07:13, Kevin Lee via cctalk wrote: > > Hi. > > I forgot to mention it?s an eye phone > 11 PRO 256gb. I may be missing something -- *what's* an "eye phone"? I thought you were listing vintage kit, not smartphones? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From joezatarski at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 07:22:40 2020 From: joezatarski at gmail.com (Joseph Zatarski) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 07:22:40 -0600 Subject: stuff for sale - recent move Message-ID: <05f61278-3de5-2d93-8805-ddfe69d14474@gmail.com> >> >> Hi. >> >> I forgot to mention it?s an eye phone >> 11 PRO 256gb. > > I may be missing something -- *what's* an "eye phone"? I thought you > were listing vintage kit, not smartphones? > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 I believe Kevin replied to the wrong e-mail by mistake. He must be selling something himself and had a similar subject line. That said, no hits on my post yet? what, nobody needs nubus ethernet cards? or various ISA/PCI/PCI-X expansion cards? a dozen computer mice? DEC Alpha 4100 RAM? some nice combination SCSI/fastethernet cards? OK, I get that it's mostly junk ;), but no attention at all so far. Keep checking, getting more stuff in the list every day. I added a recent section so people can keep up on the recent additions without having to check the whole list. As before, I'm in the west suburbs of chicago in case anyone is local and sees some stuff they want. From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 08:27:52 2020 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 09:27:52 -0500 Subject: Panda TOPS20 networking trouble In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: what is the host environment? Linux? or something else? You have to set up some hoste networking, sometimes involving some installs of virtual networking bits. bb On Tue, Mar 3, 2020 at 12:25 AM David Griffith via cctalk wrote: > > > I'm having loads of trouble getting networking going with the Panda > Distribution of TOPS20 and KLH10. Could someone point me to a > step-by-step guide on doing this? > > > -- > David Griffith > dave at 661.org > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From lproven at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 09:09:28 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 16:09:28 +0100 Subject: stuff for sale - recent move In-Reply-To: <532a1e6b-2f89-49c6-77fc-a5d72d9610d4@gmail.com> References: <532a1e6b-2f89-49c6-77fc-a5d72d9610d4@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Mar 2020 at 17:58, Joseph Zatarski via cctalk wrote: > > I've started inventorying a lot of the stuff I'd like to pass on here: > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19vhF-o6vx9g7l-D8cvLJ5OPJzpdmU9PTTknbxY-mY58/edit?usp=sharing I can't see these in the Google sheet, for some reason: > -Mac network cards (nubus and one for IIsi or SE/30) as well as a couple > other accessories (Dayna Mini Etherprint, AAUI transceiver, more > accessories to come) I am interested in an SE/30 NIC and associated bits (transciever, AppleTalk bridge). I am happy to pay international postage. I'm in Prague. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From brain at jbrain.com Tue Mar 3 09:30:31 2020 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 09:30:31 -0600 Subject: For those with 6809 experience In-Reply-To: <3954fd25-0612-3a33-2539-88dcf6435221@iais.fraunhofer.de> References: <3954fd25-0612-3a33-2539-88dcf6435221@iais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <19f49f74-3d12-b226-ff79-5beaf4fc1d99@jbrain.com> On 3/3/2020 2:26 AM, Veit, Holger via cctalk wrote: > Am 01.03.2020 um 00:42 schrieb Jim Brain via cctalk: >> >> > What are you trying to accomplish? Right now, I am just trying to understand how one pulls the 6809 off the system bus and get some more experience in performing DMA activities.? I have no specific end goal in mind. > I guess you are using $FF61 as a trigger to start a DMA transfer, or > alike. I've seen something like this in code already, so it might have > been be known in developer circles for long. The plain simple fix > apparently was to add one or two NOPs after the initiating address > reference. The hardware price could be an additional flipflop and > another comparator. Detecting $FF61 wil arm the FF and a following NOP > on databus will initiate the operation. If no NOP follows, the FF is > reset.However, the latter situation should not occur when all > instances of LDA $FF61 are properly followed by NOP. My first attempt was to simply hold off the DMA activity for a few cycles, which indeed worked.? When I hooked up the logic analyzer, I determined that no matter how early in the last cycle I pulled !HALT low, the CPU would execute one more instruction before acting on the HALT condition. I then put, as you note, a NOP in my code and could see that it was being executed after the access to $ff61, following which the BA/BS lines would go high and the Address bus went to $ffff, as expected. At that point, someone pointed me to a small notation on the 6809E datasheet on the timing diagram showing the HALT usage.? It creates more questions, but it did answer this one. Thus, in case it is of any help to others (unlikely, given the age of the CPU), even though the text in the datasheet does not mention this constraint (I know, completely unexpected :-), the timing diagram points out that the HALT condition (and interrupt conditions as well) must occur tPCS ns before the falling edge of Q in the *second* to last cycle of the current instruction in order to be acknowledged. I noticed the text on the datasheet when looking at the timing, but assumed they presented the HALT condition on the second to last cycle as a way to illustrating to the designers that the system would not immediately go into a HALT state, but would indeed (and the text confirms this) complete the current instruction. I have no idea why the extra cycle is needed (I assume internal pipelining), but I can confirm the IC does indeed behave in the above manner.? The person who pointed me to the datasheet also (out of curiosity) ran a test to see if interrupts or the HALT condition take precedence if both arrive at the same time, and it appears HALT takes precedence (more testing is needed there, though) I appreciate your note.? It's been an interesting exploration of the CPU. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 10:48:08 2020 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 17:48:08 +0100 Subject: Is this IBM keyboard compatible with the IBM 3279? Message-ID: The connector is the correct one. It has four jumpers that could be used for setting one of the keyboard types using the KB ident lines. https://i.imgur.com/PhfvKaV.jpg https://i.imgur.com/VPT38cK.jpg https://i.imgur.com/nN1gtFu.jpg Which terminal was it used for originally? /Mattis From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Mar 3 11:33:24 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 09:33:24 -0800 Subject: Is this IBM keyboard compatible with the IBM 3279? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9dbe551d-16a2-435c-4bc7-424ce55120fd@bitsavers.org> On 3/3/20 8:48 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > Which terminal was it used for originally? IC date codes appear to be 1983/84 From athornton at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 13:06:43 2020 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 12:06:43 -0700 Subject: TOPS-20 networking Message-ID: *TOPS-20* The set of config files you need to edit in TOPS-20 is found here, about halfway down the page: http://www.ldx.ca/notes/tops-20-notes.html I'll paste it here: Configuring the system The *Panda Distribution* README has this to say about initial configuration: You?ll need to edit the following files. EMACS is installed on this system, along with TECO and EDIT. [More on these editors later.] SYSTEM:7-1-CONFIG.CMD to set your timezone SYSTEM:HOSTS.TXT to define your local host name and network SYSTEM:INTERNET.ADDRESS to define (again!) your IP address ? must be the same as in klt20.ini. Also define your netmask here as LOGICAL-HOST-MASK SYSTEM:INTERNET.GATEWAYS to define your IP gateway SYSTEM:INTERNET.NAMESERVERS Don?t bother with SYSTEM:INTERNET.NAMESERVERS. That is the configuration file for DEC?s resolver; although it?s simpler it has some interoperability problems with MMAILR which haven?t been resolved yet. SYSTEM:MONNAM.TXT to define your system name DOMAIN:RESOLV.CONFIG to define your DNS servers, your default domain (replacing MYDOMAIN.COM) and any users in addition to OPERATOR who can send control messages to the resolver. To actually edit any of those, you'll probably need to ENABLE first, eg: @ena $ The dollar-sign ($) prompt indicates that your privileges are enabled. *Linux Host* On the host side, I like to convert my ethernet to a bridge so I can add virtual interfaces easily. Here's the script I use (requires sudo, and that the user running it be in group adm, and that the tuntap devices be owned by and writeable by group adm): #!/bin/sh eth0text=$(/sbin/ifconfig eth0 | grep "inet ") HOSTIP=$(echo "${eth0text}" | awk '{print $2}') HOSTNETMASK=$(echo "${eth0text}" | awk '{print $4}') HOSTBCASTADDR=$(echo "${eth0text}" | awk '{print $6}') HOSTDEFAULTGATEWAY=$(/sbin/route -n | grep ^0.0.0.0 | awk '{ print $2 }') # Change as we add more guest OSes with network stacks _maxtap=2 # for i in $(seq 0 ${_maxtap}); do /usr/bin/tunctl -t tap${i} -u adam -g adm /sbin/ifconfig tap${i} up done # # Now convert eth0 to a bridge and bridge it with the TAP interfaces /sbin/brctl addbr bridge0 sleep 1 /sbin/brctl addif bridge0 eth0 sleep 1 /sbin/brctl setfd bridge0 0 /sbin/ifconfig eth0 0.0.0.0 /sbin/ifconfig bridge0 $HOSTIP netmask $HOSTNETMASK broadcast $HOSTBCASTADDR up # set the default route to the bridge0 interface /sbin/route add -net 0.0.0.0/0 gw $HOSTDEFAULTGATEWAY # # bridge in the tap devices for i in $(seq 0 ${_maxtap}); do /sbin/brctl addif bridge0 tap${i} /sbin/ifconfig tap${i} 0.0.0.0 done For some reason this seems to work even though that should be group netdev. I guess because "adam," who is running the emulator, owns the tun/tap devices. I have this in /etc/udev/rules.d/99_net_tun.rules: KERNEL=="tun", GROUP="netdev", MODE="0660", OPTIONS+="static_node=net/tun" I don't think that's standard; I think I added that at some point. And then in klt20.ini, I have a statement that looks like: devdef ni0 564 ni20 ifc=bridge0 ipaddr=192.168.248.249 dedic=false And then finally the dnpni20 executable is setuid root. All of this together gives me a TCP/IP stack on klh10 that allows the emulator to run as me, not as root, and bridges the TOPS-20 host into my real network. Adam From joezatarski at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 15:00:52 2020 From: joezatarski at gmail.com (Joe Zatarski) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 15:00:52 -0600 Subject: stuff for sale - recent move Message-ID: > > On Sun, 1 Mar 2020 at 17:58, Joseph Zatarski via cctalk > wrote: > > > > I've started inventorying a lot of the stuff I'd like to pass on here: > > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19vhF-o6vx9g7l-D8cvLJ5OPJzpdmU9PTTknbxY-mY58/edit?usp=sharing > > I can't see these in the Google sheet, for some reason: > > > -Mac network cards (nubus and one for IIsi or SE/30) as well as a couple > > other accessories (Dayna Mini Etherprint, AAUI transceiver, more > > accessories to come) > > I am interested in an SE/30 NIC and associated bits (transciever, > AppleTalk bridge). > > I am happy to pay international postage. I'm in Prague. > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 Hello Liam, The NICs I have are Asante brand. They are located in the Apple/Macintosh category. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19vhF-o6vx9g7l-D8cvLJ5OPJzpdmU9PTTknbxY-mY58/edit#gid=1065383164&range=B3 Unfortunately for you, sale is pending on the SE/30 NIC. If the sale falls through, you are in line behind one other person. I'm fairly confident that even if the first buyer falls through, the second in line will not. If you're still interested in the other accessories, I can have a look when I get home, get a few pictures put up for you, and we can continue from there. International shipping should not be an issue, filling out a customs form is not very hard. Best Regards, Joe Zatarski From johannesthelen at hotmail.com Tue Mar 3 15:46:29 2020 From: johannesthelen at hotmail.com (Johannes Thelen) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 21:46:29 +0000 Subject: What is this System 360 peripheral/maintenance console? In-Reply-To: References: <29a0ec58d0f59a5ec5f799b192586e50.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> , Message-ID: Here's my contribution to this topic: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1iidmMNXV3arCqlMmJdzWNFwgtrjDjpt6 Our national broadcasting company visited my unofficial museum and filmed my computer collection for the documentary "Lada, Laika, Marx ja m?". You can see there the 1800 running a simple program. More photos of the 1800 is in my blog. - Johannes Thelen Finland Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Steve Malikoff via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2020 12:40 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: What is this System 360 peripheral/maintenance console? > On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 10:51 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < >> Will's right - the 16-bit register display should have been a tipoff. >> >> See http://www.dvq.com/1800/1800.htm for lots of images. >> 1800->industrial control version of the 1130. >> >> --Chuck >> > Thank you, I will update how I have it documented on the web site. I have > a lot of 1800 docs, maybe I can find the actual hardware there. > Bill Thanks everyone. I saw the 360 black and chrome knobs and black tipped switches and started searching '360' things, hence the question. Steve. From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 16:33:58 2020 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 18:33:58 -0400 Subject: Is this IBM keyboard compatible with the IBM 3279? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0444f58f-4734-3d24-03ff-69eb47c5f901@gmail.com> I was doing field service on 3270 terminals among other things up until 1983 and I never saw a 3278 or 3279 with a keyboard like this, all the ones I recall seeing where an earlier capacitive switch keyboard that is sometimes referred to as the "Beam-spring" switch.? That said this ones does seem to have all the right keys in the right place for a 3270 keyboard.? The replacement product for the 3279 was announced spring of 1984 so 3279 may have already been out of production when this keyboard was made. Paul. On 2020-03-03 12:48 p.m., Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > The connector is the correct one. It has four jumpers that could be used > for setting one of the keyboard types using the KB ident lines. > > https://i.imgur.com/PhfvKaV.jpg > > https://i.imgur.com/VPT38cK.jpg > > https://i.imgur.com/nN1gtFu.jpg > > Which terminal was it used for originally? > > /Mattis From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 18:18:56 2020 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 18:18:56 -0600 Subject: Mystery 1970 core board Message-ID: Hopefully collective wisdom can help on this one - does anyone have a clue what system this core board was from: http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/tmp/coresmall.jpg The curved edge connectors (presumably to make board insertion easier) are quite distinctive, plus the way the power's fed in via an edge connector on the "far" side of the board. What's interesting to me is the core ring size; the TTL ICs on the board have 1970 date codes, but I didn't think that the rings got quite that small until right at the end of core's era, more toward the end of the decade. It seems to be 8 blocks of 64x64, i.e. 4KB. p/n on the main board of 2001000755, and just hidden from view under the core daughterboard is a logo that says "LEC", which I suppose might be meaningful. There's a bigger (2181x1863) image as "coreboard.jpg" in the same dir if more detail helps (I doubt it), but it's 2.4MB so maybe save Jay's bandwidth by only looking at that one if you absolutely have to :-) thanks, Jules From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 3 18:51:25 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 16:51:25 -0800 Subject: Wang 2200 Diskettes In-Reply-To: <3ACBD632-5B7B-412F-938D-AC302615713D@nbi6.com> References: <3ACBD632-5B7B-412F-938D-AC302615713D@nbi6.com> Message-ID: On 3/3/20 4:26 PM, Joe George wrote: > > Yup! Single sided, single density, 32 hard sectors. And the Wang 2200 had apparently some weird insert orientation, the ?Wang? labels are on the back of the diskettes, opposite side of the manufacturer sticker. > > Cheers, My recollection is that the 8" floppy drives (in a lowboy floor-standing unit) were vertically mounted and placed to the right of the operator. The floppy eject button was then closest to the operator and any disk inserted would be visible from the "rear" of the floppy. Not nearly as weird as the Altos ACS8000, for example, that mounted the floppy drives upside-down and horizontally, such that the eject button was topmost. Those disks do have content labels placed on what we'd consider the "backside" of the floppy for obvious reasons. Did any 5.25" floppy-equipped systems do this? --Chuck From matt at 9track.net Tue Mar 3 19:05:05 2020 From: matt at 9track.net (Matt Burke) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 01:05:05 +0000 Subject: Is this IBM keyboard compatible with the IBM 3279? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87b82e4b-9360-e9ae-4c26-90417d69cb91@9track.net> On 03/03/2020 16:48, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > The connector is the correct one. It has four jumpers that could be used > for setting one of the keyboard types using the KB ident lines. > > https://i.imgur.com/PhfvKaV.jpg > > https://i.imgur.com/VPT38cK.jpg > > https://i.imgur.com/nN1gtFu.jpg > > Which terminal was it used for originally? > > /Mattis It looks a lot like the keyboard for a 3178 except that has a DA15 connector and there is a blue switch on the top to select between upper and mixed case. Matt From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Mar 3 21:24:30 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 22:24:30 -0500 Subject: Good picture of a S360. Message-ID: <69e40d97-d1cc-4715-4665-6290c2ef7b9e@alembic.crystel.com> From Imgur. The question: How the heck can you wear stiletto heels in a data center? https://i.imgur.com/rakM62J.jpg From bhilpert at shaw.ca Tue Mar 3 21:32:56 2020 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 19:32:56 -0800 Subject: Mystery 1970 core board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9611FB08-1074-4BDB-8768-036E0C918EE6@shaw.ca> On 2020-Mar-03, at 4:18 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > Hopefully collective wisdom can help on this one - does anyone have a clue what system this core board was from: http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/tmp/coresmall.jpg > > The curved edge connectors (presumably to make board insertion easier) are quite distinctive, plus the way the power's fed in via an edge connector on the "far" side of the board. What's interesting to me is the core ring size; the TTL ICs on the board have 1970 date codes, but I didn't think that the rings got quite that small until right at the end of core's era, more toward the end of the decade. > > It seems to be 8 blocks of 64x64, i.e. 4KB. p/n on the main board of 2001000755, and just hidden from view under the core daughterboard is a logo that says "LEC", which I suppose might be meaningful. > > There's a bigger (2181x1863) image as "coreboard.jpg" in the same dir if more detail helps (I doubt it), but it's 2.4MB so maybe save Jay's bandwidth by only looking at that one if you absolutely have to :-) Can't help with the system of origin, but a little observational analysis: It looks to be 16 bits wide rather than 8, I think you'll find there's another 8 bit-arrays of cores on the underside of the planar-array daughter board. The little upside-down module boards along the top would be the sense amplifiers, the circuitry along the right would be drivers for one end of the address lines for one axis. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear to be a complete module. It looks like the inhibit drivers and 3/4 of the address drivers would have been on another board. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 3 21:33:51 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 19:33:51 -0800 Subject: Good picture of a S360. In-Reply-To: <69e40d97-d1cc-4715-4665-6290c2ef7b9e@alembic.crystel.com> References: <69e40d97-d1cc-4715-4665-6290c2ef7b9e@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On 3/3/20 7:24 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > From Imgur. The question: How the heck can you wear stiletto heels in a > data center? > > https://i.imgur.com/rakM62J.jpg Marketing models. Too clean. From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Mar 3 22:12:57 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 20:12:57 -0800 Subject: Good picture of a S360. In-Reply-To: References: <69e40d97-d1cc-4715-4665-6290c2ef7b9e@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <2D11CB90-7506-4595-86B2-651F02FF9769@avanthar.com> > On Mar 3, 2020, at 7:33 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 3/3/20 7:24 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> From Imgur. The question: How the heck can you wear stiletto heels in a >> data center? >> >> https://i.imgur.com/rakM62J.jpg > > Marketing models. Too clean. At least I finally know what the tapes that went in those cases looked like. :-) I have at least a couple of the cases that came out of Tektronix 40+ years ago. Zane From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 3 22:27:15 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 20:27:15 -0800 Subject: Good picture of a S360. In-Reply-To: <2D11CB90-7506-4595-86B2-651F02FF9769@avanthar.com> References: <69e40d97-d1cc-4715-4665-6290c2ef7b9e@alembic.crystel.com> <2D11CB90-7506-4595-86B2-651F02FF9769@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <0af599aa-8e8d-383f-5067-3ba77f0b6405@sydex.com> On 3/3/20 8:12 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > At least I finally know what the tapes that went in those cases looked like. :-) I have at least a couple of the cases that came out of Tektronix 40+ years ago. Every manufacturer had their own version of the hard tape cases. 3M, for exmaple, used a rubber "boot" in the center of the case that expanded when a "plug" was depressed. Squeeze tabs/push buttons in the center were also used. Sad that most of the hard cases were junked when the "Wright Line" hanging strips came in. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 3 22:44:11 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 20:44:11 -0800 Subject: Good picture of a S360. In-Reply-To: <0af599aa-8e8d-383f-5067-3ba77f0b6405@sydex.com> References: <69e40d97-d1cc-4715-4665-6290c2ef7b9e@alembic.crystel.com> <2D11CB90-7506-4595-86B2-651F02FF9769@avanthar.com> <0af599aa-8e8d-383f-5067-3ba77f0b6405@sydex.com> Message-ID: ETA: I believe that the CPU shown is a 360/50. --Chuck From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 22:48:25 2020 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 20:48:25 -0800 Subject: Good picture of a S360. In-Reply-To: <2D11CB90-7506-4595-86B2-651F02FF9769@avanthar.com> References: <2D11CB90-7506-4595-86B2-651F02FF9769@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <97092B52-020C-4CE9-9079-CDD6EE65BD62@gmail.com> Yeah, a 360/50. When all the tapes are organized and color matched to the computer, you know it?s just a photo-op of a fake data center, or at best a real one with many hours of preparation for a beauty shot. Nice picture though! Marc > On Mar 3, 2020, at 8:13 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > ? > >> On Mar 3, 2020, at 7:33 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> >>> On 3/3/20 7:24 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >>> From Imgur. The question: How the heck can you wear stiletto heels in a >>> data center? >>> >>> https://i.imgur.com/rakM62J.jpg >> >> Marketing models. Too clean. > > At least I finally know what the tapes that went in those cases looked like. :-) I have at least a couple of the cases that came out of Tektronix 40+ years ago. > > Zane > > > From steven at malikoff.com Tue Mar 3 23:38:40 2020 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 15:38:40 +1000 Subject: Good picture of a S360. In-Reply-To: <97092B52-020C-4CE9-9079-CDD6EE65BD62@gmail.com> References: <2D11CB90-7506-4595-86B2-651F02FF9769@avanthar.com> <97092B52-020C-4CE9-9079-CDD6EE65BD62@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2a22e62b1c3f0b8d6782bbaff508431d.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Marc reckoned > Yeah, a 360/50. When all the tapes are organized and color matched to the computer, you know it?s just a photo-op of a fake data center, or at best a real one with many hours of preparation for a beauty shot. Nice picture though! It could be the 'white room'. This was a windowless machine room IBM set up for marketing and product photography of their systems in the 1960s. I think it was located in NY. There was only a paragraph or two about the white room in (IIRC) the book 'The Interface: IBM and the Transformation of Corporate Design' by John Harwood. There happened to be a copy in the Uni of Queensland bookshop a couple years ago. I spotted it on the shelf and thumbed through it at the time, but it had so little on what interested me (and I suspect cctalk readers) relative to the cost I didn't buy it so I'm only going on memory here. Steve. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 23:39:10 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 05:39:10 -0000 Subject: Good picture of a S360. In-Reply-To: <69e40d97-d1cc-4715-4665-6290c2ef7b9e@alembic.crystel.com> References: <69e40d97-d1cc-4715-4665-6290c2ef7b9e@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <025b01d5f1e7$3d4af680$b7e0e380$@gmail.com> For those interested there are several 360/67 pictures here... http://history.cs.ncl.ac.uk/anniversaries/40th/images/ibm360_672/index.html and one of the 360/40 console at MOTAT, Auckland, New Zealand here:- https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ag4BJfE5B3onlq0VBQd65MgE8EH67g?e=1DiSyI Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Chris Zach via > cctalk > Sent: 04 March 2020 03:25 > To: CCTalk mailing list > Subject: Good picture of a S360. > > From Imgur. The question: How the heck can you wear stiletto heels in a > data center? > > https://i.imgur.com/rakM62J.jpg From osi.superboard at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 08:39:42 2020 From: osi.superboard at gmail.com (osi.superboard) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 14:39:42 +0000 Subject: For those with 6809 experience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8a9ce7a9-bcbb-2d0c-6c9a-d15458da38b0@gmail.com> My assumption is, that the LDA address access is too late at the end of the instruction cycle, and the CPU already started the next instruction cycle internally. HALT will be acknowledged only during the instruction cycle following the LDA. It would be interesting to measure, when the LDA pulls down the HALT compared to the last instruction cycle signal (LIC). Maybe using LDD will work better, because the HALT signal will be asserted one clock before the instruction cycle ends. Thomas Am 29.02.2020 um 23:42 schrieb Jim Brain via cctalk: > Looking at the datasheet for the 6809 (specifically, the 6809E that > needs incoming quadrature clock), I read that !HALT can be asserted > 200nS (for 1MHz part) before falling Q and the CPU will finish the > existing instruction and then go into a HALT state as long as the HALT > line is low during the falling edge of Q. > > That's the store from the datasheet, but when I am testing it, I see > that, even if I pull HALT low at the very beginning of the last cycle > of an instruction, the 6809 will not acknowledge the HALT until > executing the next instruction. > > My logic is watching for IO address $ff61.? When found, it drops Q > > so, to start the HALT condition, I need only: > > lda $ff61 > > Not that the trigger is being performed by the code, so the current > instruction (the lda) should complete and then the CPU should go into > HiZ.? What I see is: > > lda $ff61 > > lda $ff60 <- the next instruction > > executed, and THEN the CPU goes into HiZ. > > I can deal with this (Yes, I should just look at BS=BA=1, which tell > when to safely use the bus, but I don't have access to those signals > for this project), but I thought I'd see if this was known by all, or > if there is something I am missing. > > Jim > From mattislind at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 00:44:39 2020 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 07:44:39 +0100 Subject: Is this IBM keyboard compatible with the IBM 3279? In-Reply-To: <87b82e4b-9360-e9ae-4c26-90417d69cb91@9track.net> References: <87b82e4b-9360-e9ae-4c26-90417d69cb91@9track.net> Message-ID: Den ons 4 mars 2020 kl 02:05 skrev Matt Burke via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org>: > On 03/03/2020 16:48, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > > The connector is the correct one. It has four jumpers that could be used > > for setting one of the keyboard types using the KB ident lines. > > > > https://i.imgur.com/PhfvKaV.jpg > > > > https://i.imgur.com/VPT38cK.jpg > > > > https://i.imgur.com/nN1gtFu.jpg > > > > Which terminal was it used for originally? > > > > /Mattis > > It looks a lot like the keyboard for a 3178 except that has a DA15 > connector and there is a blue switch on the top to select between upper > and mixed case. > Yes, it indeed looks a 3178 kb. But as you said that one had a 15 pin dsub. This 25 dsub actually has the missing pins in the righty places compared to the 3279 so I am leaning towards that it in fact is a 3279 compatible keyboard. Will probably trace the lines and compare those with the 3279 KB connector to see if at least ident pins and power pins is in the right places. Then I will just go ahead and try to connect it to the 3279 and see what happens when executing the keyboard test (test 2) of the 3279. /Mattis > > Matt > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 06:37:49 2020 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 06:37:49 -0600 Subject: Mystery 1970 core board In-Reply-To: <9611FB08-1074-4BDB-8768-036E0C918EE6@shaw.ca> References: <9611FB08-1074-4BDB-8768-036E0C918EE6@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <87965980-d307-8ec7-6144-e84c00b18af9@gmail.com> On 3/3/20 9:32 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > It looks to be 16 bits wide rather than 8, I think you'll find there's > another 8 bit-arrays of cores on the underside of the planar-array > daughter board. You may well be right; I can't quite tell for sure as there's not much clearance between the two, but I can see a nest of wires in there. > Unfortunately, it doesn't appear to be a complete module. It looks like > the inhibit drivers and 3/4 of the address drivers would have been on > another board. Well, it does have some damage to it, as does another identical board that I have, so it's unlikely it could ever be used again; I may get a chance to go back to the site where I picked these up from one day though, and if so I will take a look, just for the sake of completeness. cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 06:44:05 2020 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 06:44:05 -0600 Subject: Mystery 1970 core board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3/3/20 6:18 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > > Hopefully collective wisdom can help on this one - does anyone have a clue > what system this core board was from I think I may have figured it out. Back when I picked these up (I have another one, too) they were in a pile of boards from all sorts of different systems, as they were at a location which used to be an electronics surplus store - so I figured they could be anything. However, I picked up a couple of Lockheed MAC-16 front panels at the time, and I was just digging through some info on that machine and realized that it was also known as the LEC-16; in light of that, the little "LEC" logo on these boards seems telling. That was a 16 bit system (and as Brent mentioned, there may be another set of core hidden on the other side of the plane) and was around the 1969/1970 timeframe, so that fits, too. From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 09:46:46 2020 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 10:46:46 -0500 Subject: Mystery 1970 core board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: LEC16 was a copy of the PDP11. Lockheed sold it to BBN. BBN relabeled it Pluribus. I was part of the DEC engineering team looking at purchasing the LEC, as one of the features was the ability to be an Arpanet IMP. I was quite familiar with t the Unibus, and noticed the print set was very similar to a negative copy of an 11/20 print set. I raised this with the boss and legal. The machine was then referred to as the Lockheed SUE. //bob On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 7:44 AM Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > On 3/3/20 6:18 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > Hopefully collective wisdom can help on this one - does anyone have a clue > > what system this core board was from > > I think I may have figured it out. Back when I picked these up (I have > another one, too) they were in a pile of boards from all sorts of different > systems, as they were at a location which used to be an electronics surplus > store - so I figured they could be anything. > > However, I picked up a couple of Lockheed MAC-16 front panels at the time, > and I was just digging through some info on that machine and realized that > it was also known as the LEC-16; in light of that, the little "LEC" logo on > these boards seems telling. That was a 16 bit system (and as Brent > mentioned, there may be another set of core hidden on the other side of the > plane) and was around the 1969/1970 timeframe, so that fits, too. > From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Mar 4 10:20:16 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 10:20:16 -0600 Subject: Good picture of a S360. In-Reply-To: <69e40d97-d1cc-4715-4665-6290c2ef7b9e@alembic.crystel.com> References: <69e40d97-d1cc-4715-4665-6290c2ef7b9e@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <5E5FD540.4010400@pico-systems.com> On 03/03/2020 09:24 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > From Imgur. The question: How the heck can you wear > stiletto heels in a data center? > > https://i.imgur.com/rakM62J.jpg > > That's an IBM publicity photo. Don't expect anything real in them. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Mar 4 10:22:22 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 10:22:22 -0600 Subject: Good picture of a S360. In-Reply-To: References: <69e40d97-d1cc-4715-4665-6290c2ef7b9e@alembic.crystel.com> <2D11CB90-7506-4595-86B2-651F02FF9769@avanthar.com> <0af599aa-8e8d-383f-5067-3ba77f0b6405@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5E5FD5BE.1050507@pico-systems.com> On 03/03/2020 10:44 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > ETA: I believe that the CPU shown is a 360/50. > > Yes, 360/50 (or 2050 for the purists) had 4 rollers on the console display. 360/30 had none, 360/40 had 2, 360/65 had 4. Jon From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Mar 4 10:25:20 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 11:25:20 -0500 Subject: Mystery 1970 core board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Mar 4, 2020, at 10:46 AM, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: > > LEC16 was a copy of the PDP11. Lockheed sold it to BBN. BBN relabeled > it Pluribus. > I was part of the DEC engineering team looking at purchasing the LEC, > as one of the features was the ability to be an Arpanet IMP. > I was quite familiar with t the Unibus, and noticed the print set was > very similar to a negative copy of an 11/20 print set. > I raised this with the boss and legal. The machine was then referred > to as the Lockheed SUE. > //bob That's interesting. I remember seeing a SUE at the university, but that was not a PDP-11 clone at all. For one thing, its claim to fame was that it had user-programmable microcode. paul From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Mar 4 10:26:24 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 10:26:24 -0600 Subject: Good picture of a S360. In-Reply-To: <025b01d5f1e7$3d4af680$b7e0e380$@gmail.com> References: <69e40d97-d1cc-4715-4665-6290c2ef7b9e@alembic.crystel.com> <025b01d5f1e7$3d4af680$b7e0e380$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5E5FD6B0.5060405@pico-systems.com> On 03/03/2020 11:39 PM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > For those interested there are several 360/67 pictures here... > > http://history.cs.ncl.ac.uk/anniversaries/40th/images/ibm360_672/index.html HUH! The first two pictures there are MIRRORED! (pictures 8 and 9 are right.) Jon From linimon at lonesome.com Wed Mar 4 10:27:02 2020 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 16:27:02 +0000 Subject: Mystery 1970 core board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200304162700.GA5089@lonesome.com> On Wed, Mar 04, 2020 at 11:25:20AM -0500, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > That's interesting. I remember seeing a SUE at the university, but > that was not a PDP-11 clone at all. The one at Rice University circa 1978 also had 6? 8? processors in the cabinet. mcl From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 10:32:48 2020 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 11:32:48 -0500 Subject: Mystery 1970 core board In-Reply-To: <20200304162700.GA5089@lonesome.com> References: <20200304162700.GA5089@lonesome.com> Message-ID: The Unibus was patented. Don't lmpw jpw ,icj pf the WCS/,ocrpcpdomg SIE jad avao;ab;e/ I do not have the ISA in my head or handy, been more than 30 years since I touched a Pluribus, BBN version of the SUE. //bob On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 11:27 AM Mark Linimon wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 04, 2020 at 11:25:20AM -0500, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > That's interesting. I remember seeing a SUE at the university, but > > that was not a PDP-11 clone at all. > > The one at Rice University circa 1978 also had 6? 8? processors in > the cabinet. > > mcl From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 4 13:13:21 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 11:13:21 -0800 Subject: Mystery 1970 core board In-Reply-To: References: <20200304162700.GA5089@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <786b4de6-b1d9-e6ed-b96b-640de1d48b1b@bitsavers.org> if it's LEC, it may be for a MAC-16 the form factor of the SUE boards is quite different (single edge connector) docs under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/lockheed On 3/4/20 8:32 AM, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: > The Unibus was patented. Don't lmpw jpw ,icj pf the WCS/,ocrpcpdomg > SIE jad avao;ab;e/ > I do not have the ISA in my head or handy, been more than 30 years > since I touched a Pluribus, BBN version of the SUE. > //bob From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 4 13:15:22 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 11:15:22 -0800 Subject: Mystery 1970 core board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: found it in this MAC-16 ad https://adspast.com/store/customer/product.php?productid=62927 On 3/3/20 4:18 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > > Hopefully collective wisdom can help on this one - does anyone have a clue what system this core board was from: > http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/tmp/coresmall.jpg From rickb at bensene.com Wed Mar 4 14:31:00 2020 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 12:31:00 -0800 Subject: Mystery 1970 core board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17012D400A@mail.bensene.com> Al Kossow wrote Re: Mystery 1970 core board: >found it in this MAC-16 ad >https://adspast.com/store/customer/product.php?productid=62927 The MAC-16 in this ad looks odd. The front panel has nothing behind it...or at least, very little. I'm not familiar with the MAC-16, but either the ad has a mock-up of the machine(seems plausible given the tendencies of marketing), or the front panel is a real waste of rack space. The electronics appear to be in a box below the front panel, with only a small area of overlap between the electronics chassis and the front panel, and nothing but air behind it. Is this the way the system was really put together? Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Mar 4 14:40:29 2020 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 20:40:29 +0000 Subject: Mystery 1970 core board In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17012D400A@mail.bensene.com> References: , <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17012D400A@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: It is interesting, the way the edge connector is curved. I wish I'd seen this done on more boards. Sometimes I want to use a hammer to assist in inserting cards. My Nicolet has two and sometimes three 80 pin connectors. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Rick Bensene via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2020 12:31 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Mystery 1970 core board Al Kossow wrote Re: Mystery 1970 core board: >found it in this MAC-16 ad >https://adspast.com/store/customer/product.php?productid=62927 The MAC-16 in this ad looks odd. The front panel has nothing behind it...or at least, very little. I'm not familiar with the MAC-16, but either the ad has a mock-up of the machine(seems plausible given the tendencies of marketing), or the front panel is a real waste of rack space. The electronics appear to be in a box below the front panel, with only a small area of overlap between the electronics chassis and the front panel, and nothing but air behind it. Is this the way the system was really put together? Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 4 14:58:14 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 12:58:14 -0800 Subject: Mystery 1970 core board In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17012D400A@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <57455e75-bbe5-1fcf-a6f6-107b6946dfe3@bitsavers.org> On 3/4/20 12:40 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > It is interesting, the way the edge connector is curved. I wish I'd seen this done on more boards. it was common in Burroughs systems From shumaker at att.net Wed Mar 4 18:24:17 2020 From: shumaker at att.net (s shumaker) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 16:24:17 -0800 Subject: Mystery 1970 core board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <152c5f04-173c-3154-1318-33a12266c3b3@att.net> On 3/3/2020 4:18 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > > Hopefully collective wisdom can help on this one - does anyone have a > clue what system this core board was from: > http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/tmp/coresmall.jpg > > The curved edge connectors (presumably to make board insertion easier) > are quite distinctive, plus the way the power's fed in via an edge > connector on the "far" side of the board. What's interesting to me is > the core ring size; the TTL ICs on the board have 1970 date codes, but > I didn't think that the rings got quite that small until right at the > end of core's era, more toward the end of the decade. > > It seems to be 8 blocks of 64x64, i.e. 4KB. p/n on the main board of > 2001000755, and just hidden from view under the core daughterboard is > a logo that says "LEC", which I suppose might be meaningful. > > There's a bigger (2181x1863) image as "coreboard.jpg" in the same dir > if more detail helps (I doubt it), but it's 2.4MB so maybe save Jay's > bandwidth by only looking at that one if you absolutely have to :-) > > thanks, > > Jules > LEC was the Lockheed Electronics Company, Avionics and Industrial Products Division, located in Los Angeles.? part number noted matches their part numbering structure.? I have manuals for two of their devices that were rack mountable core memory systems.? The CE-100 product brochure described it as 4K, 8K, &16K words up to 36bits targeting small and medium computer central memory. Steve From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Mar 4 19:40:11 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 19:40:11 -0600 Subject: Mystery 1970 core board In-Reply-To: References: <20200304162700.GA5089@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <5E60587B.3020509@pico-systems.com> On 03/04/2020 10:32 AM, Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: > The Unibus was patented. Don't lmpw jpw ,icj pf the WCS/,ocrpcpdomg > SIE jad avao;ab;e/ > I do not have the ISA in my head or handy, been more than 30 years > since I touched a Pluribus, BBN version of the SUE. > A quick scan of the MAC-16 / SUE instruction set shows it was an old-school minicomputer architecture, and nowhere as modern as PDP-11. Jon From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 20:01:59 2020 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 21:01:59 -0500 Subject: 2.11bsd rogue can't build Message-ID: Wonder why I can't make(1) rogue on my 11/83, 2044KW, latest patch release from sms. [16] root--> make cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c curses.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c hit.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c init.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c inventory.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c level.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c machdep.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c main.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c message.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c monster.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c move.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c object.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c pack.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c play.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c random.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c ring.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c room.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c save.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c score.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c spec_hit.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c throw.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c trap.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c use.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c zap.c cc -i curses.o hit.o init.o inventory.o level.o machdep.o main.o message.o monster.o move.o object.o pack.o play.o random.o ring.o room.o save.o score.o spec_hit.o throw.o trap.o use.o zap.o -o rogue -lcurses -ltermlib ld:/usr/lib/libcurses.a(refresh.o): text overflow *** Exit 4 Stop. [17] root--> From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 22:15:24 2020 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 20:15:24 -0800 Subject: 2.11bsd rogue can't build In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 6:02 PM Jacob Ritorto via cctalk wrote: > > Wonder why I can't make(1) rogue on my 11/83, 2044KW, latest patch > release from sms. > The ld "text overflow" error is probably due to the the total size of text (executable code) exceeding 64KB. The sum of the object files I get without anything pulled in from the libraries is 62136 bytes. I'm pretty sure I built this successfully in the past. I'll have to try it again later with the generic installation before any patches are applied, in case that makes a difference for some reason. # pwd /usr/src/games/rogue # make cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c curses.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c hit.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c init.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c inventory.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c level.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c machdep.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c main.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c message.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c monster.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c move.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c object.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c pack.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c play.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c random.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c ring.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c room.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c save.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c score.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c spec_hit.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c throw.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c trap.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c use.c cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c zap.c cc -i curses.o hit.o init.o inventory.o level.o machdep.o main.o message.o monster.o move.o object.o pack.o play.o random.o ring.o room.o save.o score.o spec_hit.o throw.o trap.o use.o zap.o -o rogue -lcurses -ltermlib ld:/usr/lib/libcurses.a(refresh.o): text overflow *** Exit 4 Stop. # size *.o text data bss dec hex 0 38 0 38 26 curses.o 2322 264 0 2586 a1a hit.o 1620 304 0 1924 784 init.o 4212 2760 0 6972 1b3c inventory.o 6790 410 0 7200 1c20 level.o 1060 116 12 1188 4a4 machdep.o 82 36 0 118 76 main.o 2688 548 0 3236 ca4 message.o 5234 1856 0 7090 1bb2 monster.o 3408 294 4 3706 e7a move.o 4042 3642 0 7684 1e04 object.o 2760 568 0 3328 d00 pack.o 682 370 0 1052 41c play.o 474 180 0 654 28e random.o 1320 382 0 1702 6a6 ring.o 4322 402 0 4724 1274 room.o 2966 346 0 3312 cf0 save.o 4850 1222 8 6080 17c0 score.o 3162 242 0 3404 d4c spec_hit.o 2094 164 4 2262 8d6 throw.o 1726 394 2 2122 84a trap.o 3452 1500 0 4952 1358 use.o 2870 358 2 3230 c9e zap.o >>> 2322 + 1620 + 4212 + 6790 + 1060 + 82 + 2688 + 5234 + 3408 + 4042 + 2760 + 682 + 474 + 1320 + 4322 + 2966 + 4850 + 3162 + 2094 + 1726 + 3452 + 2870 62136 From deramp5113 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 4 21:02:04 2020 From: deramp5113 at yahoo.com (Mike Douglas) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 21:02:04 -0600 Subject: SWTPC 6800, FLEX and Percom Floppy References: <5BA92875-2BF1-4623-B416-D11A6C9CBCE8.ref@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5BA92875-2BF1-4623-B416-D11A6C9CBCE8@yahoo.com> Now that I have my SWTPC 6800 loading and saving programs with paper tape, cassette, and floppy disk (using the Percom LFD-400 controller and their MiniDOS and MPX ?operating systems?), the next logical step is getting FLEX up and running. Unfortunately, I only have the Percom floppy controller and I don?t know if FLEX compatible disk drivers and boot code were ever written for it. Before I go create Percom support for FLEX from scratch, does anyone have any leads? Mike From aperry at snowmoose.com Thu Mar 5 09:44:45 2020 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 07:44:45 -0800 Subject: RDI BriteLite In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D9A3A64-6734-4C96-91A3-800DF0D892A5@snowmoose.com> > On Mar 5, 2020, at 05:20, Plamen Mihaylov via cctech wrote: > > ? Does anyone have such machine ? I miss the PSU adapter as well as the Sbus > framebuffer which connects the LCD panel to the mainboard. Any info is > appreciated. I had one, but sold it to someone on this list last year. I used a generic power supply, one with multiple cord tips and selectable output. However, when I exhibited the BriteLite and had it running all day, the power supply died after a day and a half. Good luck on finding a frame buffer for it. I don?t remember the details about it, but I took lots of photos of it. alan > > Best regards, > Plamen From aperry at snowmoose.com Thu Mar 5 09:44:45 2020 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 07:44:45 -0800 Subject: RDI BriteLite In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D9A3A64-6734-4C96-91A3-800DF0D892A5@snowmoose.com> > On Mar 5, 2020, at 05:20, Plamen Mihaylov via cctech wrote: > > ? Does anyone have such machine ? I miss the PSU adapter as well as the Sbus > framebuffer which connects the LCD panel to the mainboard. Any info is > appreciated. I had one, but sold it to someone on this list last year. I used a generic power supply, one with multiple cord tips and selectable output. However, when I exhibited the BriteLite and had it running all day, the power supply died after a day and a half. Good luck on finding a frame buffer for it. I don?t remember the details about it, but I took lots of photos of it. alan > > Best regards, > Plamen From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Mar 5 09:54:58 2020 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 10:54:58 -0500 Subject: SWTPC 6800, FLEX and Percom Floppy In-Reply-To: <5BA92875-2BF1-4623-B416-D11A6C9CBCE8@yahoo.com> References: <5BA92875-2BF1-4623-B416-D11A6C9CBCE8.ref@yahoo.com> <5BA92875-2BF1-4623-B416-D11A6C9CBCE8@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <251a01d5f306$6c7f67e0$457e37a0$@verizon.net> Hi Mike, You really want to ask this on the fufu list: http://www.flexusergroup.com/flexusergroup/fufusub.htm I did about a year ago, but didn't get anything definite. The list tends to be bursty. It's been pretty quiet for the last couple of weeks. Bill S. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Douglas via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2020 10:02 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: SWTPC 6800, FLEX and Percom Floppy Now that I have my SWTPC 6800 loading and saving programs with paper tape, cassette, and floppy disk (using the Percom LFD-400 controller and their MiniDOS and MPX ?operating systems?), the next logical step is getting FLEX up and running. Unfortunately, I only have the Percom floppy controller and I don?t know if FLEX compatible disk drivers and boot code were ever written for it. Before I go create Percom support for FLEX from scratch, does anyone have any leads? Mike From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 17:33:50 2020 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 15:33:50 -0800 Subject: 2.11bsd rogue can't build In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > I'm pretty sure I built this successfully in the past. I'll have to > try it again later with the generic installation before any patches > are applied, in case that makes a difference for some reason. > I took another look to refresh my memory. I assume now that I never successfully built rogue on 2.11BSD in the past, and what I actually did was just run the already built hack binary. If you look at the hack binary it is built with 5 text overlays in addition to the base text: # pwd /usr/games # ls -l hack -rws--x--x 1 daemon 195175 Nov 26 1999 hack # size hack text data bss dec hex 37952 32424 12450 82826 1438a total text: 148608 overlays: 24512,24192,22528,18688,20736 If you look at the Makefile for hack it defines the BASE object files and the OV1 - OV5 overlay objects files, then uses the ld -Z switch to link the executable with the BASE object files plus the 5 overlay object files OV1 - OV5. If the total text size for rogue is slightly beyond 64KB after pulling in object files from the libraries then the Makefile for rogue needs to be modified to move some of the object files into overlays somewhat similar to the way it is done for hack, for example. # Hack overlay structure (PDP-11/{44,45,70}) # # The BASE (should) occupy 5 segments, but extreme care has to be taken when # any code is changed as those five segments have been filled to within bytes # of that limit. Each of the overlays occupies 3 segments with similar # restrictions on changing code (most have been filled to within a few hundred # bytes). The wise and cautious programmer would be well advised to use # size(1) heavily ... # BASE = strings.o hack.monst.o hack.Decl.o\ hack.invent.o hack.dog.o hack.mon.o\ hack.engrave.o rnd.o hack.track.o OV1 = hack.shk.o hack.topl.o hack.o hack.end.o hack.trap.o OV2 = hack.do_wear.o hack.main.o hack.eat.o hack.timeout.o hack.vault.o\ hack.wizard.o hack.topl.o hack.tty.o\ hack.do.o hack.search.o alloc.o\ hack.cmd.o hack.termcap.o hack.unix.o hack.ioctl.o OV3 = hack.do_name.o hack.fight.o hack.mkobj.o hack.o_init.o hack.mhitu.o\ hack.makemon.o hack.worn.o hack.rumors.o hack.objnam.o hack.pri.o OV4 = hack.zap.o hack.read.o hack.apply.o hack.potion.o\ hack.options.o hack.pager.o hack.wield.o OV5 = hack.save.o hack.lev.o hack.mklev.o hack.mkshop.o hack.mkmaze.o\ hack.shknam.o hack.u_init.o\ hack.rip.o hack.bones.o hack.worm.o hack.steal.o hack.version.o # Crypt *MUST be listed BEFORE $(HOBJ) $(GAME): crypt $(HOBJ) @echo "Loading ..." @ld -i -X -x -o $(GAME) /lib/crt0.o $(BASE)\ -Z $(OV1) -Z $(OV2) -Z $(OV3) -Z $(OV4) -Z $(OV5) -Y\ $(TERMLIB) -lc @echo "Load complete" From mbbrutman at brutman.com Thu Mar 5 19:34:03 2020 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael Brutman) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 17:34:03 -0800 Subject: VCF PNW 2020: Cancelled Message-ID: The short story: COVID-19 More details at http://vcfed.org/vcf-pnw. Mike From brain at jbrain.com Thu Mar 5 20:11:04 2020 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 20:11:04 -0600 Subject: For those with 6809 experience In-Reply-To: <8a9ce7a9-bcbb-2d0c-6c9a-d15458da38b0@gmail.com> References: <8a9ce7a9-bcbb-2d0c-6c9a-d15458da38b0@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 3/3/2020 8:39 AM, osi.superboard via cctalk wrote: > My assumption is, that the LDA address access is too late at the end > of the instruction cycle, and the CPU already started the next > instruction cycle internally. HALT will be acknowledged only during > the instruction cycle following the LDA. > It would be interesting to measure, when the LDA pulls down the HALT > compared to the last instruction cycle signal (LIC). Maybe using LDD > will work better, because the HALT signal will be asserted one clock > before the instruction cycle ends. Which is exactly what I ended up doing: http://www.go4retro.com/2020/03/05/coco-dma-fighting-on-the-bus/ Jim From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 23:30:41 2020 From: barythrin at gmail.com (John Herron) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 23:30:41 -0600 Subject: VCF PNW 2020: Cancelled In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tough choice and I saw the museum closing announcement today also. Is there a way to still buy any swag and show support for all of you folks' hard work? Probably too soon to say but any chance of a reschedule vs cancel? On Thu, Mar 5, 2020, 7:34 PM Michael Brutman via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > The short story: COVID-19 > > More details at http://vcfed.org/vcf-pnw. > > > Mike > From mechanic_2 at charter.net Thu Mar 5 23:40:33 2020 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2020 23:40:33 -0600 Subject: VCF PNW 2020: Cancelled In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5E61E251.6090201@charter.net> Hello all, The Covid-19 threat is being over sold. Children don't seem to be at risk. It is the elderly that seem to get really sick. If you are sick just stay home. You can also wear a mask and that will protect others. The flu is more of a threat than Covid-19. If you are not sick wearing a mask is a waste of money and resources for you can be infected through the eyes. No reason to cancel. Just request that sick people please stay home. GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 3/5/2020 11:30 PM, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > Tough choice and I saw the museum closing announcement today also. Is there > a way to still buy any swag and show support for all of you folks' hard > work? > > Probably too soon to say but any chance of a reschedule vs cancel? > > On Thu, Mar 5, 2020, 7:34 PM Michael Brutman via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> The short story: COVID-19 >> >> More details at http://vcfed.org/vcf-pnw. >> >> >> Mike >> From aperry at snowmoose.com Thu Mar 5 23:49:05 2020 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 21:49:05 -0800 Subject: VCF PNW 2020: Cancelled In-Reply-To: <5E61E251.6090201@charter.net> References: <5E61E251.6090201@charter.net> Message-ID: <3CAF3D55-B3BD-4565-8DA8-48DFC3951AB1@snowmoose.com> Given that the venue is closed and it is unknown whether it will reopen before the show date, there is a good reason to reschedule at a minimum. alan > On Mar 5, 2020, at 21:40, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: > > ?Hello all, > The Covid-19 threat is being over sold. Children don't seem to be at risk. It is the elderly that seem to get really sick. If you are sick just stay home. You can also wear a mask and that will protect others. The flu is more of a threat than Covid-19. If you are not sick wearing a mask is a waste of money and resources for you can be infected through the eyes. No reason to cancel. Just request that sick people please stay home. > GOD Bless and Thanks, > rich! > >> On 3/5/2020 11:30 PM, John Herron via cctalk wrote: >> Tough choice and I saw the museum closing announcement today also. Is there >> a way to still buy any swag and show support for all of you folks' hard >> work? >> >> Probably too soon to say but any chance of a reschedule vs cancel? >> >> On Thu, Mar 5, 2020, 7:34 PM Michael Brutman via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> The short story: COVID-19 >>> >>> More details at http://vcfed.org/vcf-pnw. >>> >>> >>> Mike >>> > From kevenm at 3kranger.com Thu Mar 5 11:09:21 2020 From: kevenm at 3kranger.com (Keven Miller(3k)) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 09:09:21 -0800 Subject: 2.11bsd rogue can't build References: Message-ID: <82AC3C04E43E4FA7A1C2C414A910FBA8@ranger1> I don't have knowledge of the system - just a programmer. But could it be the difference of static vz dynamic libraries? pulling in libnnn.a instead of libnnn.so /.sl / ?? runtime library? That would make the text larger, if static linking. Keven Miller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jacob Ritorto via cctech" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wed 04 Mar 2020 06:01 PM Subject: 2.11bsd rogue can't build > Wonder why I can't make(1) rogue on my 11/83, 2044KW, latest patch > release from sms. > > [16] root--> make > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c curses.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c hit.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c init.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c inventory.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c level.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c machdep.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c main.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c message.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c monster.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c move.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c object.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c pack.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c play.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c random.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c ring.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c room.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c save.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c score.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c spec_hit.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c throw.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c trap.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c use.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c zap.c > > cc -i curses.o hit.o init.o inventory.o > level.o machdep.o main.o message.o > monster.o move.o object.o pack.o > play.o random.o ring.o room.o save.o > score.o spec_hit.o throw.o > trap.o use.o zap.o -o rogue -lcurses -ltermlib > > ld:/usr/lib/libcurses.a(refresh.o): text overflow > > *** Exit 4 > > > Stop. > > [17] root--> > From kevenm at 3kranger.com Thu Mar 5 11:09:21 2020 From: kevenm at 3kranger.com (Keven Miller(3k)) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 09:09:21 -0800 Subject: 2.11bsd rogue can't build References: Message-ID: <82AC3C04E43E4FA7A1C2C414A910FBA8@ranger1> I don't have knowledge of the system - just a programmer. But could it be the difference of static vz dynamic libraries? pulling in libnnn.a instead of libnnn.so /.sl / ?? runtime library? That would make the text larger, if static linking. Keven Miller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jacob Ritorto via cctech" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wed 04 Mar 2020 06:01 PM Subject: 2.11bsd rogue can't build > Wonder why I can't make(1) rogue on my 11/83, 2044KW, latest patch > release from sms. > > [16] root--> make > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c curses.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c hit.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c init.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c inventory.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c level.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c machdep.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c main.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c message.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c monster.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c move.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c object.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c pack.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c play.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c random.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c ring.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c room.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c save.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c score.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c spec_hit.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c throw.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c trap.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c use.c > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c zap.c > > cc -i curses.o hit.o init.o inventory.o > level.o machdep.o main.o message.o > monster.o move.o object.o pack.o > play.o random.o ring.o room.o save.o > score.o spec_hit.o throw.o > trap.o use.o zap.o -o rogue -lcurses -ltermlib > > ld:/usr/lib/libcurses.a(refresh.o): text overflow > > *** Exit 4 > > > Stop. > > [17] root--> > From aperry at snowmoose.com Thu Mar 5 15:04:36 2020 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 13:04:36 -0800 Subject: RDI BriteLite In-Reply-To: <8D9A3A64-6734-4C96-91A3-800DF0D892A5@snowmoose.com> References: <8D9A3A64-6734-4C96-91A3-800DF0D892A5@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On 3/5/20 7:44 AM, Alan Perry via cctech wrote: > > >> On Mar 5, 2020, at 05:20, Plamen Mihaylov via cctech wrote: >> >> ? Does anyone have such machine ? I miss the PSU adapter as well as the Sbus >> framebuffer which connects the LCD panel to the mainboard. Any info is >> appreciated. > > > I had one, but sold it to someone on this list last year. > > I used a generic power supply, one with multiple cord tips and selectable output. However, when I exhibited the BriteLite and had it running all day, the power supply died after a day and a half. > > Good luck on finding a frame buffer for it. I don?t remember the details about it, but I took lots of photos of it. Here is a Flickr album of the insides of what was my BriteLite IPX, including the LCD frame buffer - https://flic.kr/s/aHsmLNnBuU alan > > alan > > >> >> Best regards, >> Plamen > From doc at vaxen.net Thu Mar 5 16:10:47 2020 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 16:10:47 -0600 Subject: 2.11bsd rogue can't build In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3/4/20 8:01 PM, Jacob Ritorto via cctech wrote: > Wonder why I can't make(1) rogue on my 11/83, 2044KW, latest patch > release from sms. > > [16] root--> make > .... > > ld:/usr/lib/libcurses.a(refresh.o): text overflow > > *** Exit 4 > > > Stop. > > [17] root--> > I'm going on 15-years-ago recollection here, but if that's the problem I think it is, it can be fixed by reallocating driver distribution in the overlays. I tried to build 2.11 with ethernet support and piled all the extra includes into one overlay. A more even distribution across overlays fixed it. Doc From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Mar 6 01:06:30 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 00:06:30 -0700 Subject: 2.11bsd rogue can't build In-Reply-To: <82AC3C04E43E4FA7A1C2C414A910FBA8@ranger1> References: <82AC3C04E43E4FA7A1C2C414A910FBA8@ranger1> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 5, 2020, 11:15 PM Keven Miller(3k) via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I don't have knowledge of the system - just a programmer. > But could it be the difference of static vz dynamic libraries? > 2.11 and all pdp-11 unix have no shared libraries. The hardware makes this super hard to dom pulling in libnnn.a instead of libnnn.so /.sl / ?? runtime library? > That would make the text larger, if static linking. > No. It's almost certainly the overlay structure is overflowing and needs to be redone. Warner Keven Miller > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jacob Ritorto via cctech" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Wed 04 Mar 2020 06:01 PM > Subject: 2.11bsd rogue can't build > > > > Wonder why I can't make(1) rogue on my 11/83, 2044KW, latest patch > > release from sms. > > > > [16] root--> make > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c curses.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c hit.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c init.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c inventory.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c level.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c machdep.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c main.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c message.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c monster.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c move.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c object.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c pack.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c play.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c random.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c ring.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c room.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c save.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c score.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c spec_hit.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c throw.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c trap.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c use.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c zap.c > > > > cc -i curses.o hit.o init.o inventory.o > > level.o machdep.o main.o message.o > > monster.o move.o object.o pack.o > > play.o random.o ring.o room.o save.o > > score.o spec_hit.o throw.o > > trap.o use.o zap.o -o rogue -lcurses -ltermlib > > > > ld:/usr/lib/libcurses.a(refresh.o): text overflow > > > > *** Exit 4 > > > > > > Stop. > > > > [17] root--> > > > From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Mar 6 01:06:30 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 00:06:30 -0700 Subject: 2.11bsd rogue can't build In-Reply-To: <82AC3C04E43E4FA7A1C2C414A910FBA8@ranger1> References: <82AC3C04E43E4FA7A1C2C414A910FBA8@ranger1> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 5, 2020, 11:15 PM Keven Miller(3k) via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I don't have knowledge of the system - just a programmer. > But could it be the difference of static vz dynamic libraries? > 2.11 and all pdp-11 unix have no shared libraries. The hardware makes this super hard to dom pulling in libnnn.a instead of libnnn.so /.sl / ?? runtime library? > That would make the text larger, if static linking. > No. It's almost certainly the overlay structure is overflowing and needs to be redone. Warner Keven Miller > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jacob Ritorto via cctech" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Wed 04 Mar 2020 06:01 PM > Subject: 2.11bsd rogue can't build > > > > Wonder why I can't make(1) rogue on my 11/83, 2044KW, latest patch > > release from sms. > > > > [16] root--> make > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c curses.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c hit.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c init.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c inventory.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c level.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c machdep.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c main.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c message.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c monster.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c move.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c object.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c pack.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c play.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c random.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c ring.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c room.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c save.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c score.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c spec_hit.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c throw.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c trap.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c use.c > > > > cc -O -DUNIX -DUNIX_BSD4_2 -c zap.c > > > > cc -i curses.o hit.o init.o inventory.o > > level.o machdep.o main.o message.o > > monster.o move.o object.o pack.o > > play.o random.o ring.o room.o save.o > > score.o spec_hit.o throw.o > > trap.o use.o zap.o -o rogue -lcurses -ltermlib > > > > ld:/usr/lib/libcurses.a(refresh.o): text overflow > > > > *** Exit 4 > > > > > > Stop. > > > > [17] root--> > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Mar 6 01:39:24 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 00:39:24 -0700 Subject: 2.11bsd rogue can't build In-Reply-To: References: <82AC3C04E43E4FA7A1C2C414A910FBA8@ranger1> Message-ID: <6e304387-2f34-7a71-14ac-e993875db651@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/6/2020 12:06 AM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Mar 5, 2020, 11:15 PM Keven Miller(3k) via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> I don't have knowledge of the system - just a programmer. >> But could it be the difference of static vz dynamic libraries? >> > > 2.11 and all pdp-11 unix have no shared libraries. The hardware makes this > super hard to dom > > pulling in libnnn.a instead of libnnn.so /.sl / ?? runtime library? >> That would make the text larger, if static linking. >> > > No. It's almost certainly the overlay structure is overflowing and needs to > be redone. > > Warner > > Keven Miller Can curses be stripped down just for the terminals used? From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Mar 6 02:03:31 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 01:03:31 -0700 Subject: 2.11bsd rogue can't build In-Reply-To: <6e304387-2f34-7a71-14ac-e993875db651@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <82AC3C04E43E4FA7A1C2C414A910FBA8@ranger1> <6e304387-2f34-7a71-14ac-e993875db651@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 6, 2020, 12:39 AM ben via cctalk wrote: > On 3/6/2020 12:06 AM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > > On Thu, Mar 5, 2020, 11:15 PM Keven Miller(3k) via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> I don't have knowledge of the system - just a programmer. > >> But could it be the difference of static vz dynamic libraries? > >> > > > > 2.11 and all pdp-11 unix have no shared libraries. The hardware makes > this > > super hard to dom > > > > pulling in libnnn.a instead of libnnn.so /.sl / ?? runtime library? > >> That would make the text larger, if static linking. > >> > > > > No. It's almost certainly the overlay structure is overflowing and needs > to > > be redone. > > > > Warner > > > > Keven Miller > > Can curses be stripped down just for the terminals used? > Curses is table driven from a file, so no. It already is small. There may be a little bit of excess to trim, but it won't be a big win. Warner > From kspt.tor at gmail.com Fri Mar 6 02:11:25 2020 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 09:11:25 +0100 Subject: VCF PNW 2020: Cancelled In-Reply-To: <5E61E251.6090201@charter.net> References: <5E61E251.6090201@charter.net> Message-ID: Please do not try to spread medical advice on a mailing list. FYI, what you're saying does *not* match proper advice from medical sources. On Fri, 6 Mar 2020 at 07:58, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: > > Hello all, > The Covid-19 threat is being over sold. Children don't seem to be > at risk. It is the elderly that seem to get really sick. If you are sick > just stay home. You can also wear a mask and that will protect others. > The flu is more of a threat than Covid-19. If you are not sick wearing a > mask is a waste of money and resources for you can be infected through > the eyes. No reason to cancel. Just request that sick people please stay > home. > GOD Bless and Thanks, > rich! > > On 3/5/2020 11:30 PM, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > > Tough choice and I saw the museum closing announcement today also. Is there > > a way to still buy any swag and show support for all of you folks' hard > > work? > > > > Probably too soon to say but any chance of a reschedule vs cancel? > > > > On Thu, Mar 5, 2020, 7:34 PM Michael Brutman via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> The short story: COVID-19 > >> > >> More details at http://vcfed.org/vcf-pnw. > >> > >> > >> Mike > >> > From plamenspam at afterpeople.com Fri Mar 6 03:07:19 2020 From: plamenspam at afterpeople.com (Plamen Mihaylov) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 11:07:19 +0200 Subject: RDI BriteLite In-Reply-To: References: <8D9A3A64-6734-4C96-91A3-800DF0D892A5@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: Alan, thank you for the photos. I have no idea it was a proprietary framebuffer. Do you remember what voltage the RDI uses ? Best regards, Plamen On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 11:04 PM Alan Perry via cctech wrote: > > > On 3/5/20 7:44 AM, Alan Perry via cctech wrote: > > > > > >> On Mar 5, 2020, at 05:20, Plamen Mihaylov via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >> ? Does anyone have such machine ? I miss the PSU adapter as well as the > Sbus > >> framebuffer which connects the LCD panel to the mainboard. Any info is > >> appreciated. > > > > > > I had one, but sold it to someone on this list last year. > > > > I used a generic power supply, one with multiple cord tips and > selectable output. However, when I exhibited the BriteLite and had it > running all day, the power supply died after a day and a half. > > > > Good luck on finding a frame buffer for it. I don?t remember the details > about it, but I took lots of photos of it. > > Here is a Flickr album of the insides of what was my BriteLite IPX, > including the LCD frame buffer - https://flic.kr/s/aHsmLNnBuU > > alan > > > > > alan > > > > > >> > >> Best regards, > >> Plamen > > > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Mar 6 06:42:57 2020 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 06:42:57 -0600 Subject: Mystery 1970 core board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45d14537-9ba6-0e70-a169-014d653617d5@gmail.com> On 3/4/20 1:15 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > found it in this MAC-16 ad > > https://adspast.com/store/customer/product.php?productid=62927 Thanks, Al! Definitely it. Hopefully I'll make it back to the site at some point and see if there are more related boards, although I think everything that was left had been "decommissioned" and had the card edges snipped off (which is the case for the diode-matrix ROM boot board that I snagged at the same time) From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Mar 6 08:01:57 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 06:01:57 -0800 Subject: Mystery 1970 core board In-Reply-To: <45d14537-9ba6-0e70-a169-014d653617d5@gmail.com> References: <45d14537-9ba6-0e70-a169-014d653617d5@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 3/6/20 4:42 AM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > Thanks, Al! Definitely it. Hopefully I'll make it back to the site at some point and see if there are more related boards, although I think > everything that was left had been "decommissioned" and had the card edges snipped off (which is the case for the diode-matrix ROM boot board > that I snagged at the same time) > > considering how rare these boards are, even the goldbug snipped ones would be useful to take pictures of if there is ever a need for component ID or circuit tracing From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Mar 6 09:48:17 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 08:48:17 -0700 Subject: VCF PNW 2020: Cancelled In-Reply-To: References: <5E61E251.6090201@charter.net> Message-ID: Yes. I thought about posting a long rebuttal, with citations to peer reviewed articles and then thought better of it. I'll just say that world health organization (www.who.int) has the best, most current advice based on the accumulated evidence to date and a track record of providing good information over several of these outbreaks and avoids the partisan mess that exists in national sources. Warner On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 1:11 AM Tor Arntsen via cctalk wrote: > Please do not try to spread medical advice on a mailing list. > FYI, what you're saying does *not* match proper advice from medical > sources. > > > On Fri, 6 Mar 2020 at 07:58, Richard Pope via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Hello all, > > The Covid-19 threat is being over sold. Children don't seem to be > > at risk. It is the elderly that seem to get really sick. If you are sick > > just stay home. You can also wear a mask and that will protect others. > > The flu is more of a threat than Covid-19. If you are not sick wearing a > > mask is a waste of money and resources for you can be infected through > > the eyes. No reason to cancel. Just request that sick people please stay > > home. > > GOD Bless and Thanks, > > rich! > > > > On 3/5/2020 11:30 PM, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > > > Tough choice and I saw the museum closing announcement today also. Is > there > > > a way to still buy any swag and show support for all of you folks' hard > > > work? > > > > > > Probably too soon to say but any chance of a reschedule vs cancel? > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 5, 2020, 7:34 PM Michael Brutman via cctalk < > > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > >> The short story: COVID-19 > > >> > > >> More details at http://vcfed.org/vcf-pnw. > > >> > > >> > > >> Mike > > >> > > > From mbbrutman at brutman.com Fri Mar 6 11:50:40 2020 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael Brutman) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 09:50:40 -0800 Subject: VCF PNW 2020: Cancelled In-Reply-To: References: <5E61E251.6090201@charter.net> Message-ID: Getting back on topic - VCF PNW 2020 ... John - thanks for the kind words. The T-shirt is fantastic - I designed it myself. :-) (You can see the mockup on the website.) I still plan on sending t-shirts to all of the exhibitors, volunteers and speakers. And I'll try to do some mail order for people like you who want a great shirt and want to support us. I had been talking to museum personnel before the decision was made and honestly it was a surprise to me. Things changed very quickly after King County announced guidance asking organizers of large events to consider cancelling them. The exact words regarding large events were: "Event and community gathering considerations - If you can feasibly avoid bringing large groups of people together, consider postponing events and gatherings." https://www.kingcounty.gov/depts/health/communicable-diseases/disease-control/novel-coronavirus/protection.aspx It was not a public health order. Vulcan, Inc. is erring on the side of caution and shut the museum down. I had no input or choice in the manner, and regardless of what I think (positive or negative) it is out of my hands. I put an incredible amount of time into this event, and have for the last three years. Right now the mission is to get the word out and try to make it easier for the people who have been impacted. (Plane tickets, travel reservations, vacation time, etc.) I chose to cancel than postpone because we really don't know how far this goes. Perhaps in a few weeks we'll know more, but there are other considerations too including other events (not necessarily ours) that we don't want to conflict with. Thanks for understanding and stay safe ... Mike From mechanic_2 at charter.net Fri Mar 6 12:37:54 2020 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2020 12:37:54 -0600 Subject: VCF PNW 2020: Cancelled In-Reply-To: References: <5E61E251.6090201@charter.net> Message-ID: <5E629882.3070603@charter.net> Hello all, What I said below is from the CDC. That is all that I am going to say on the subject. GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 3/6/2020 9:48 AM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > Yes. I thought about posting a long rebuttal, with citations to peer > reviewed articles and then thought better of it. I'll just say that world > health organization (www.who.int) has the best, most current advice based > on the accumulated evidence to date and a track record of providing good > information over several of these outbreaks and avoids the partisan mess > that exists in national sources. > > Warner > > On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 1:11 AM Tor Arntsen via cctalk > wrote: > >> Please do not try to spread medical advice on a mailing list. >> FYI, what you're saying does *not* match proper advice from medical >> sources. >> >> >> On Fri, 6 Mar 2020 at 07:58, Richard Pope via cctalk >> wrote: >>> Hello all, >>> The Covid-19 threat is being over sold. Children don't seem to be >>> at risk. It is the elderly that seem to get really sick. If you are sick >>> just stay home. You can also wear a mask and that will protect others. >>> The flu is more of a threat than Covid-19. If you are not sick wearing a >>> mask is a waste of money and resources for you can be infected through >>> the eyes. No reason to cancel. Just request that sick people please stay >>> home. >>> GOD Bless and Thanks, >>> rich! >>> >>> On 3/5/2020 11:30 PM, John Herron via cctalk wrote: >>>> Tough choice and I saw the museum closing announcement today also. Is >> there >>>> a way to still buy any swag and show support for all of you folks' hard >>>> work? >>>> >>>> Probably too soon to say but any chance of a reschedule vs cancel? >>>> >>>> On Thu, Mar 5, 2020, 7:34 PM Michael Brutman via cctalk < >>>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> The short story: COVID-19 >>>>> >>>>> More details at http://vcfed.org/vcf-pnw. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Mike >>>>> From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Mar 6 12:45:54 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 11:45:54 -0700 Subject: VCF PNW 2020: Cancelled In-Reply-To: <5E629882.3070603@charter.net> References: <5E61E251.6090201@charter.net> <5E629882.3070603@charter.net> Message-ID: The CDC does *NOT* say that the flu is more of a threat than COVID-19. Given that it's early in flu season, we cannot yet know which will be more deadly this year. We're at the left hand side of the exponential curve so comparisons to prior year's full year data are not valid. Warner On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 11:37 AM Richard Pope wrote: > Hello all, > What I said below is from the CDC. That is all that I am going to > say on the subject. > GOD Bless and Thanks, > rich! > > On 3/6/2020 9:48 AM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > > Yes. I thought about posting a long rebuttal, with citations to peer > > reviewed articles and then thought better of it. I'll just say that world > > health organization (www.who.int) has the best, most current advice > based > > on the accumulated evidence to date and a track record of providing good > > information over several of these outbreaks and avoids the partisan mess > > that exists in national sources. > > > > Warner > > > > On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 1:11 AM Tor Arntsen via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > >> Please do not try to spread medical advice on a mailing list. > >> FYI, what you're saying does *not* match proper advice from medical > >> sources. > >> > >> > >> On Fri, 6 Mar 2020 at 07:58, Richard Pope via cctalk > >> wrote: > >>> Hello all, > >>> The Covid-19 threat is being over sold. Children don't seem to be > >>> at risk. It is the elderly that seem to get really sick. If you are > sick > >>> just stay home. You can also wear a mask and that will protect others. > >>> The flu is more of a threat than Covid-19. If you are not sick wearing > a > >>> mask is a waste of money and resources for you can be infected through > >>> the eyes. No reason to cancel. Just request that sick people please > stay > >>> home. > >>> GOD Bless and Thanks, > >>> rich! > >>> > >>> On 3/5/2020 11:30 PM, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > >>>> Tough choice and I saw the museum closing announcement today also. Is > >> there > >>>> a way to still buy any swag and show support for all of you folks' > hard > >>>> work? > >>>> > >>>> Probably too soon to say but any chance of a reschedule vs cancel? > >>>> > >>>> On Thu, Mar 5, 2020, 7:34 PM Michael Brutman via cctalk < > >>>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> The short story: COVID-19 > >>>>> > >>>>> More details at http://vcfed.org/vcf-pnw. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Mike > >>>>> > > From ethan at 757.org Fri Mar 6 12:50:28 2020 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 13:50:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: VCF PNW 2020: Cancelled In-Reply-To: <5E629882.3070603@charter.net> References: <5E61E251.6090201@charter.net> <5E629882.3070603@charter.net> Message-ID: > Hello all, > What I said below is from the CDC. That is all that I am going to say on > the subject. > GOD Bless and Thanks, > rich! Hooray for Cult of the Dead Cow!! [[___]] (x X) \ / (U) moo From brain at jbrain.com Fri Mar 6 13:02:50 2020 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 13:02:50 -0600 Subject: VCF PNW 2020: Cancelled In-Reply-To: References: <5E61E251.6090201@charter.net> Message-ID: On 3/6/2020 11:50 AM, Michael Brutman via cctalk wrote: > It was not a public health order. Vulcan, Inc. is erring on the side of > caution and shut the museum down. I had no input or choice in the manner, > and regardless of what I think (positive or negative) it is out of my hands. I hope you can weather the storm without too much personal hurt. As much time and effort as you have put into the event and the pride we are have for such events, this is not a critical event in the grand scheme of things, but I am sure some people will lash out as if it is/was.? Ignore them if you can. > I put an incredible amount of time into this event, and have for the last > three years. Right now the mission is to get the word out and try to make > it easier for the people who have been impacted. (Plane tickets, travel > reservations, vacation time, etc.) I chose to cancel than postpone because > we really don't know how far this goes. Perhaps in a few weeks we'll know > more, but there are other considerations too including other events (not > necessarily ours) that we don't want to conflict with. I was a bit surprised that it was not a "postponed until further notice", but postponed versus canceled is probably equivalent in the short term (people need to deal with plane tickets, unbook hotels, etc. in the same way) Jim From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 6 13:19:26 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 11:19:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: VCF PNW 2020: Cancelled In-Reply-To: <5E629882.3070603@charter.net> References: <5E61E251.6090201@charter.net> <5E629882.3070603@charter.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Mar 2020, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: > Hello all, > What I said below is from the CDC. That is all that I am going to say on > the subject. > GOD Bless and Thanks, > rich! Doesn't the Living Computer Museum have a CDC 6500? From linimon at lonesome.com Fri Mar 6 13:42:26 2020 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 19:42:26 +0000 Subject: VCF PNW 2020: Cancelled In-Reply-To: References: <5E61E251.6090201@charter.net> Message-ID: <20200306194225.GA14965@lonesome.com> On Fri, Mar 06, 2020 at 01:02:50PM -0600, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > I hope you can weather the storm without too much personal hurt. As > much time and effort as you have put into the event and the pride we > are have for such events +1 mcl From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Fri Mar 6 13:47:52 2020 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 14:47:52 -0500 Subject: eBay: 2x IBM 5114 and 5103 Message-ID: I don't have enough space, but these look neat! https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-IBM-5114-disk-drive-5103-printer-for-5110-computer-two-of-each-/333407338900 -- Anders From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Mar 6 13:51:08 2020 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 14:51:08 -0500 Subject: VCF PNW 2020: Cancelled In-Reply-To: <5E629882.3070603@charter.net> References: <5E61E251.6090201@charter.net> <5E629882.3070603@charter.net> Message-ID: On 2020-03-06 1:37 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: > Hello all, > ??? What I said below is from the CDC. That is all that I am going to > say on the subject. Good. > GOD Bless and Thanks, > rich! > > On 3/6/2020 9:48 AM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: >> Yes. I thought about posting a long rebuttal, with citations to peer >> reviewed articles and then thought better of it. I'll just say that world >> health organization (www.who.int) has the best, most current advice based >> on the accumulated evidence to date and a track record of providing good >> information over several of these outbreaks and avoids the partisan mess >> that exists in national sources. >> >> Warner >> >> On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 1:11 AM Tor Arntsen via cctalk >> >> wrote: >> >>> Please do not try to spread medical advice on a mailing list. >>> FYI, what you're saying does *not* match proper advice from medical >>> sources. >>> >>> >>> On Fri, 6 Mar 2020 at 07:58, Richard Pope via cctalk >>> wrote: >>>> Hello all, >>>> ????? The Covid-19 threat is being over sold. Children don't seem to be >>>> at risk. It is the elderly that seem to get really sick. If you are >>>> sick >>>> just stay home. You can also wear a mask and that will protect others. >>>> The flu is more of a threat than Covid-19. If you are not sick >>>> wearing a >>>> mask is a waste of money and resources for you can be infected through >>>> the eyes. No reason to cancel. Just request that sick people please >>>> stay >>>> home. >>>> GOD Bless and Thanks, >>>> rich! >>>> >>>> On 3/5/2020 11:30 PM, John Herron via cctalk wrote: >>>>> Tough choice and I saw the museum closing announcement today also. Is >>> there >>>>> a way to still buy any swag and show support for all of you folks' >>>>> hard >>>>> work? >>>>> >>>>> Probably too soon to say but any chance of a reschedule vs cancel? >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Mar 5, 2020, 7:34 PM Michael Brutman via cctalk < >>>>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> The short story: COVID-19 >>>>>> >>>>>> More details at http://vcfed.org/vcf-pnw. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike >>>>>> > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Mar 6 13:53:27 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 11:53:27 -0800 Subject: ISO earl TI DSP kits Message-ID: CHM doesn't seem to have much early DSP stuff in the collection Does anyone have any of the TMS32010/20/30 or C1x/2x/3x hw/sw kicking around? Other than the docs I've scanned there doesn't seem to be much on the web either. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Mar 6 14:03:05 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 12:03:05 -0800 Subject: ISO earl TI DSP kits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <524b56b4-caf0-20e7-2198-418d78812f31@bitsavers.org> related, if anyone made a copy of the TI bbs320 ftp site. I did find at least one copy I made of the Moto 56K DrBubb files On 3/6/20 11:53 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > CHM doesn't seem to have much early DSP stuff in the collection > Does anyone have any of the TMS32010/20/30 or C1x/2x/3x hw/sw kicking around? > > Other than the docs I've scanned there doesn't seem to be much on the web either. > From mbbrutman at brutman.com Fri Mar 6 14:23:27 2020 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael Brutman) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 12:23:27 -0800 Subject: VCF PNW 2020: Cancelled In-Reply-To: References: <5E61E251.6090201@charter.net> Message-ID: Jim - I agree. In the grand scheme of things this is not a big deal. Life goes on. On the flip side, this should serve as a reminder for people to sign up and participate in these events instead of sitting on the fence. Doing things in real life can require a lot of effort, and those things often suffer from a lack of participation. When something is successful people should savor it because depending on the "something" there are so many ways for it to fail. That's true whether it is a computer meetup (small in the grand scheme of things), a relative making it out of high school or college, or somebody accomplishing something. Failure is all around us celebrate even the small things that don't fail. We had two good years and we dodged a snowstorm by luck. This year we weren't so lucky. That's today's motivational message. Back to drudge work ... From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Mar 6 14:42:28 2020 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 12:42:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: VCF PNW 2020: Cancelled In-Reply-To: References: <5E61E251.6090201@charter.net> <5E629882.3070603@charter.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Mar 2020, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: >> Hello all, >> What I said below is from the CDC. That is all that I am going to say on >> the subject. >> GOD Bless and Thanks, >> rich! > > Hooray for Cult of the Dead Cow!! > > [[___]] > (x X) > \ / > (U) moo > This was becoming a train wreck until this. Made my day. :D g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Fri Mar 6 14:53:59 2020 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B DiGriz) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 15:53:59 -0500 Subject: ISO earl TI DSP kits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200306155359.51d0dbfc@dragonsweb.org> I'm glad you've scanned those docs in, because I lost my hardcopies of TI docs some years ago. Don't ask. I don't have any of the EVM's or SDK's, and I'm on the lookout for the 9995-based 32010 evaluation board, but I do have have an XDS emulator for the 32010. Non-functioning, but it is interesting in having a 9996 host CPU I'm wanting to delve into for which I can't find a datasheet. jbdigriz On Fri, 6 Mar 2020 11:53:27 -0800 Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > CHM doesn't seem to have much early DSP stuff in the collection > Does anyone have any of the TMS32010/20/30 or C1x/2x/3x hw/sw kicking > around? > > Other than the docs I've scanned there doesn't seem to be much on the > web either. > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Mar 6 16:26:49 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 14:26:49 -0800 Subject: ISO earl TI DSP kits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <872db5a4-f12f-b606-f3f1-c68215080d59@bitsavers.org> On 3/6/20 11:53 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > CHM doesn't seem to have much early DSP stuff in the collection > Does anyone have any of the TMS32010/20/30 or C1x/2x/3x hw/sw kicking around? and sure enough, the 320C3x I had been watching on eBay vanished. thanks a lot From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Fri Mar 6 16:29:26 2020 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 17:29:26 -0500 Subject: Mystery 1970 core board In-Reply-To: References: <45d14537-9ba6-0e70-a169-014d653617d5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Don't forget Pluribus used the same boards. I think most of those were finally scrapped in the late 90s. They had been repurposed after I think it was Citibank dumped a lot of them. bb On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 9:28 AM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 3/6/20 4:42 AM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > > Thanks, Al! Definitely it. Hopefully I'll make it back to the site at some point and see if there are more related boards, although I think > > everything that was left had been "decommissioned" and had the card edges snipped off (which is the case for the diode-matrix ROM boot board > > that I snagged at the same time) > > > > > > considering how rare these boards are, even the goldbug snipped ones would be useful to take pictures of > if there is ever a need for component ID or circuit tracing > > From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Fri Mar 6 23:24:47 2020 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 00:24:47 -0500 Subject: 2.11bsd rogue can't build In-Reply-To: References: <82AC3C04E43E4FA7A1C2C414A910FBA8@ranger1> <6e304387-2f34-7a71-14ac-e993875db651@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: Thanks for the leads, everyone! I made a little progress: I did read enough about ld to get it to load the .o files from the initial cc run into a separate I&d overlaid executable. But when I execute it, it gives me Segmentation fault (core dumped).. There was one complaint of Undefined during the ld run even though I said -lc_p (and validated that _environ is in that .a file using nm. Undefined: _environ but it seemed to succeed in building the executable despite that. Well, I'm guessing it succeeded because the output file rogue is sitting there afterwards and has been marked executable, which, according to the man page, ld doesn't mark that way unless it succeeds. [35] root--> ld -t -v -M -i -X -x init.o main.o level.o score.o machdep.o inventory.o -Z hit.o monster.o -Z message.o move.o -Z object.o pack.o play.o -Z curses.o random.o ring.o -Z room.o -Z save.o spec_hit.o -Z throw.o trap.o -Z use.o zap.o -Y -o rogue -lcurses -ltermlib -lc_p [36] root--> size rogue text data bss dec hex 44928 18554 10520 74002 12112 total text: 88704 overlays: 7616,6144,7488,1856,4352,6144,3840,6336 [37] root--> ./rogue Segmentation fault (core dumped) See anything amiss in my process? That Undefined _environ during ld still bugs me. Is the next step dissecting the program or its core with adb to find what's wrong? thx jake From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Fri Mar 6 07:03:31 2020 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 08:03:31 -0500 Subject: RDI BriteLite In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 14:23:30 +0200 > From: Plamen Mihaylov > Subject: RDI BriteLite > > Does anyone have such machine ? I miss the PSU adapter as well as the Sbus > framebuffer which connects the LCD panel to the mainboard. Any info is > appreciated. > > Best regards, > Plamen > I have several BriteLites, including IPC, IPX, and LX versions. I will see what power supplies go with them. The Sbus video board is something special for the LCD panel. -- Michael Thompson From aperry at snowmoose.com Fri Mar 6 11:25:49 2020 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 09:25:49 -0800 Subject: RDI BriteLite In-Reply-To: References: <8D9A3A64-6734-4C96-91A3-800DF0D892A5@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <385add0c-685b-e22f-cefb-9376e0aef81a@snowmoose.com> According to the label, the BriteLite IPX power input is 18V 3.1A. alan On 3/6/20 1:07 AM, Plamen Mihaylov wrote: > Alan, thank you for the photos. I have no idea it was a proprietary > framebuffer. Do you remember what voltage the RDI uses ? > > Best regards, > Plamen > > On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 11:04 PM Alan Perry via cctech > > wrote: > > > > On 3/5/20 7:44 AM, Alan Perry via cctech wrote: > > > > > >> On Mar 5, 2020, at 05:20, Plamen Mihaylov via cctech > > wrote: > >> > >> ? Does anyone have such machine ? I miss the PSU adapter as well > as the Sbus > >> framebuffer which connects the LCD panel to the mainboard. Any > info is > >> appreciated. > > > > > > I had one, but sold it to someone on this list last year. > > > > I used a generic power supply, one with multiple cord tips and > selectable output. However, when I exhibited the BriteLite and had > it running all day, the power supply died after a day and a half. > > > > Good luck on finding a frame buffer for it. I don?t remember the > details about it, but I took lots of photos of it. > > Here is a Flickr album of the insides of what was my BriteLite IPX, > including the LCD frame buffer - https://flic.kr/s/aHsmLNnBuU > > alan > > > > > alan > > > > > >> > >> Best regards, > >> Plamen > > > From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Sat Mar 7 05:33:37 2020 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 05:33:37 -0600 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <9CCE9B978F7C964097645E1FC2BC99DD20C318@mail.wiz.local> References: <9CCE9B978F7C964097645E1FC2BC99DD20C318@mail.wiz.local> Message-ID: For those interested, HPE has finally, formally announced the end of their participation in the OpenVMS Hobbyist Program.? A number of people have received the below message from HPE, probably everyone they have on record as having current Hobbyist licenses. If you have any current or future ( at least before the end of 2021 ) interest in Hobbyist licenses for any version of OpenVMS from 5.0 through 8.4 for VAX ( only up to 7.3) or Alpha and Itanium, then register now.? HPE is looking to find out how many are interested in Hobbyist offerings and even though the new license will be good through 2021, I don't expect them to be generating them past the end of 2020 and maybe sooner. Register for Hobbyist PAKs at one of the following (I suggest the HPE address first): https://www.hpe.com/h41268/live/index_e.aspx?qid=24548 http://plato.ccsscorp.com/hobbyist_registration.php Note the underscore between hobbyist and registration in hobbyist_registration. One Hobbyist user reports this: I?ve just received an update from the OpenVMS Customer lab: Here?s the message from the OpenVMS team.? The idea was that hobbyists would visit the site and renew their licenses, and in response, we would provide the final set of licenses, explaining the scenario: =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ? As we approach the end of the HPE OpenVMS V8.4 standard support period, HPE ??plans to conclude the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program. ? The HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses we are issuing in 2020 will be the last set. ??Subsequently, HPE will not issue new HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses. Attached ??is the final set of the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses. These final licenses ??are valid through December 31st, 2021. We hope that this additional validity ??period will enable users to plan for the future. ? Users who wish to avail of HPE OpenVMS long term licenses are encouraged to ??purchase permanent licenses at standard prices. You may contact [Fellman, Jon] ??> for the same. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Cheers, Wiz!! John H. Reinhardt *From:*owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] *On Behalf Of *David Moylan *Sent:* Saturday, 7 March 2020 4:14 PM *To:* hecnet at Update.UU.SE *Subject:* [HECnet] HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing Hi all, Just received the e-mail below. I?ve hunted around all the various Hobbyist locations and licensing pages and can?t find any additional information. I?ve already replied back to ask what the impact of Hobbyist renewal licensing will be. I have no further information at this stage. Have others received this as well? Does anyone have any further knowledge on this? I can see a few people have forwarded/posted the same message on comp.os.vms. Cheers, Wiz!! *From:*OpenVMS Customer Lab [mailto:openvmscustomerlab at hpe.com] *Sent:* Saturday, 7 March 2020 3:13 PM *Cc:* OpenVMS Customer Lab *Subject:* OpenVMS Hobbyist Notification Dear HPE OpenVMS hobbyist, This is to inform you that HPE is concluding the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program in alignment with the HPE OpenVMS support roadmap. If you wish to understand more details, please reach out to us at the earliest through the usual license renewal webpage. Thank you. HPE OpenVMS team From mjkerpan at kerpan.com Sat Mar 7 07:00:03 2020 From: mjkerpan at kerpan.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 08:00:03 -0500 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <9CCE9B978F7C964097645E1FC2BC99DD20C318@mail.wiz.local> Message-ID: Well that's sad news. Since VMS Software may or may not ever launch a proper hobbyist program and has stated that they don't have the ability to issue licenses for VAX versions of VMS, that means we have until 2021 to legally use VMS on the vintage hardware or emulations. After that, I guess we will have to either sail the seven seas or learn to love 4.3BSD... Mike On Sat, Mar 7, 2020, 6:33 AM John H. Reinhardt via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > For those interested, HPE has finally, formally announced the end of their > participation in the OpenVMS Hobbyist Program. A number of people have > received the below message from HPE, probably everyone they have on record > as having current Hobbyist licenses. > > > If you have any current or future ( at least before the end of 2021 ) > interest in Hobbyist licenses for any version of OpenVMS from 5.0 through > 8.4 for VAX ( only up to 7.3) or Alpha and Itanium, then register now. HPE > is looking to find out how many are interested in Hobbyist offerings and > even though the new license will be good through 2021, I don't expect them > to be generating them past the end of 2020 and maybe sooner. > > Register for Hobbyist PAKs at one of the following (I suggest the HPE > address first): > > https://www.hpe.com/h41268/live/index_e.aspx?qid=24548 > > http://plato.ccsscorp.com/hobbyist_registration.php > Note the underscore between hobbyist and registration in > hobbyist_registration. > > One Hobbyist user reports this: > > > I?ve just received an update from the OpenVMS Customer lab: > > Here?s the message from the OpenVMS team. The idea was that hobbyists > would visit the site and renew their licenses, and in response, we would > provide the final set of licenses, > > explaining the scenario: > > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > > As we approach the end of the HPE OpenVMS V8.4 standard support > period, HPE > > plans to conclude the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program. > > The HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses we are issuing in 2020 will be > the last set. > > Subsequently, HPE will not issue new HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses. > Attached > > is the final set of the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses. These final > licenses > > are valid through December 31st, 2021. We hope that this additional > validity > > period will enable users to plan for the future. > > Users who wish to avail of HPE OpenVMS long term licenses are > encouraged to > > purchase permanent licenses at standard prices. You may contact > [Fellman, Jon] > > > for the same. > > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > > Cheers, Wiz!! > > > John H. Reinhardt > > > *From:*owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] *On > Behalf Of *David Moylan > *Sent:* Saturday, 7 March 2020 4:14 PM > *To:* hecnet at Update.UU.SE > *Subject:* [HECnet] HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing > > Hi all, > > Just received the e-mail below. I?ve hunted around all the various > Hobbyist locations and licensing pages and can?t find any additional > information. > > I?ve already replied back to ask what the impact of Hobbyist renewal > licensing will be. I have no further information at this stage. > > Have others received this as well? Does anyone have any further knowledge > on this? > > I can see a few people have forwarded/posted the same message on > comp.os.vms. > > Cheers, Wiz!! > > *From:*OpenVMS Customer Lab [mailto:openvmscustomerlab at hpe.com] > *Sent:* Saturday, 7 March 2020 3:13 PM > *Cc:* OpenVMS Customer Lab > *Subject:* OpenVMS Hobbyist Notification > > Dear HPE OpenVMS hobbyist, > > This is to inform you that HPE is concluding the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist > license program in alignment with the HPE OpenVMS support roadmap. > > If you wish to understand more details, please reach out to us at the > earliest through the usual license renewal webpage. > > Thank you. > > HPE OpenVMS team > > From healyzh at avanthar.com Sat Mar 7 08:10:17 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 06:10:17 -0800 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <9CCE9B978F7C964097645E1FC2BC99DD20C318@mail.wiz.local> Message-ID: On Mar 7, 2020, at 5:00 AM, Michael Kerpan via cctalk wrote: > > Well that's sad news. Since VMS Software may or may not ever launch a > proper hobbyist program and has stated that they don't have the ability to > issue licenses for VAX versions of VMS, that means we have until 2021 to > legally use VMS on the vintage hardware or emulations. After that, I guess > we will have to either sail the seven seas or learn to love 4.3BSD... > > Mike If VSI doesn?t have the ability to issue VAX versions of the VMS license, will it be possible to buy VAX licenses? I?m curious as about five years ago, I had to help buy VAX/VMS licenses for a project. Zane From imp at bsdimp.com Sat Mar 7 09:00:35 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 08:00:35 -0700 Subject: 2.11bsd rogue can't build In-Reply-To: References: <82AC3C04E43E4FA7A1C2C414A910FBA8@ranger1> <6e304387-2f34-7a71-14ac-e993875db651@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 10:25 PM Jacob Ritorto via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Thanks for the leads, everyone! > > I made a little progress: I did read enough about ld to get it to load > the .o files from the initial cc run into a separate I&d overlaid > executable. But when I execute it, it gives me Segmentation fault > (core dumped).. There was one complaint of Undefined during the ld run > even though I said -lc_p (and validated that _environ is in that .a > file using nm. > > Undefined: > _environ > > but it seemed to succeed in building the executable despite that. > Well, I'm guessing it succeeded because the output file rogue is > sitting there afterwards and has been marked executable, which, > according to the man page, ld doesn't mark that way unless it > succeeds. > > [35] root--> ld -t -v -M -i -X -x init.o main.o level.o score.o > machdep.o inventory.o -Z hit.o monster.o -Z message.o move.o -Z > object.o pack.o play.o -Z curses.o random.o ring.o -Z room.o -Z save.o > spec_hit.o -Z throw.o trap.o -Z use.o zap.o -Y -o rogue -lcurses > -ltermlib -lc_p > > [36] root--> size rogue > text data bss dec hex > 44928 18554 10520 74002 12112 total text: 88704 > overlays: 7616,6144,7488,1856,4352,6144,3840,6336 > > [37] root--> ./rogue > Segmentation fault (core dumped) > > See anything amiss in my process? That Undefined _environ during ld > still bugs me. > Is the next step dissecting the program or its core with adb to find > what's wrong? > You should check to see if crt saves the third argument to start/main. That's what environ is. But you'll need to look at the code. src/lib/libc/gen/getenv expects environ to be a global variable: extern char **environ; and if getenv is called, that may be where that comes from. It's defined in pdp/csu/crt0.s:_environ: .=.+2 / others where it also looks to be set. Is crt0.o not getting pulled in for some reason? Warner From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 7 10:05:02 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 08:05:02 -0800 Subject: Good picture of a S360. In-Reply-To: <69e40d97-d1cc-4715-4665-6290c2ef7b9e@alembic.crystel.com> References: <69e40d97-d1cc-4715-4665-6290c2ef7b9e@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On 3/3/20 7:24 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > From Imgur. The question: How the heck can you wear stiletto heels in a > data center? > > https://i.imgur.com/rakM62J.jpg That photo must be making the rounds; I found it in an ED article by Bill Wong in my inbox today: https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/embedded-revolution/article/21123625/cobol-contracts-and-clarification --Chuck From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Sat Mar 7 11:07:04 2020 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 11:07:04 -0600 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <9CCE9B978F7C964097645E1FC2BC99DD20C318@mail.wiz.local> Message-ID: <03393efb-855c-9fae-4724-a3e014361768@thereinhardts.org> On 3/7/2020 8:10 AM, Zane Healy wrote: > On Mar 7, 2020, at 5:00 AM, Michael Kerpan via cctalk > wrote: >> >> Well that's sad news. Since VMS Software may or may not ever launch a >> proper hobbyist program and has stated that they don't have the ability to >> issue licenses for VAX versions of VMS, that means we have until 2021 to >> legally use VMS on the vintage hardware or emulations. After that, I guess >> we will have to either sail the seven seas or learn to love 4.3BSD... >> >> Mike > > If VSI doesn?t have the ability to issue VAX versions of the VMS license, will it be possible to buy VAX licenses? ?I?m curious as about five years ago, I had to help buy VAX/VMS licenses for a project. > > Zane > > On the HECnet list, David Moylan had sent an inqujiry to the OpenVMS Customer Lab and got this as a response " Users who wish to avail of HPE OpenVMS long term licenses are encouraged to purchase permanent licenses at standard prices. You may contact [Fellman, Jon] for the same." So this HP person, Jon Fellman looks like the person to ask about buying an OpenVMS VAX license. I've sent him an email but I don't expect a response until Monday at least. The "standard prices" part doesn't' look encouraging. -- John H. Reinhardt From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Mar 7 11:12:26 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 17:12:26 -0000 Subject: Can't Select a Custom Device in Eagle Message-ID: <02e101d5f4a3$93b7f1d0$bb27d570$@ntlworld.com> I have been using Eagle to reverse engineer a PSU schematic. I decided I needed to make a custom device in Eagle for the transformer. I have done this and it seems to be fine, except that when I put the symbol on a schematic, after I have confirmed its position, I can't select it, so I can't move it or anything. I have done some web searches but I can't find anything about this. Anyone know what the problem might be? I am using the free version, and I am on version 7.2.0. Looks like later versions are subscription only and I am reluctant to do that because they could take away access at any time. Thanks Rob From alan at alanlee.org Sat Mar 7 11:15:20 2020 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2020 12:15:20 -0500 Subject: Can't Select a Custom Device in Eagle In-Reply-To: <02e101d5f4a3$93b7f1d0$bb27d570$@ntlworld.com> References: <02e101d5f4a3$93b7f1d0$bb27d570$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <1615197b6c1465f53219b8147f668eaf@alanlee.org> It sounds like when you created the symbol in the library editor, you didn't place what you drew near the center anchor point in the sheet. Now that that device is place on a real schematic sheet, it's origin point is located somewhere far away from where you are trying to select. Both for symbols and packages, Eagle's selection tool only selects the parts' original cross hairs. -Alan On 2020-03-07 12:12, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > I have been using Eagle to reverse engineer a PSU schematic. I decided > I > needed to make a custom device in Eagle for the transformer. I have > done > this and it seems to be fine, except that when I put the symbol on a > schematic, after I have confirmed its position, I can't select it, so I > can't move it or anything. > > > > I have done some web searches but I can't find anything about this. > Anyone > know what the problem might be? > > > > I am using the free version, and I am on version 7.2.0. Looks like > later > versions are subscription only and I am reluctant to do that because > they > could take away access at any time. > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Mar 7 11:21:17 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 17:21:17 -0000 Subject: Can't Select a Custom Device in Eagle Message-ID: <02e601d5f4a4$d09a88a0$71cf99e0$@ntlworld.com> Never mind, I just realised there was a little "+" sign well away from the symbol that allowed me to select it. It looks like the symbol is somehow much bigger that how I have drawn it. I should be able to work it out now. Regards Rob From: Rob Jarratt Sent: 07 March 2020 17:12 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts (cctalk at classiccmp.org) Subject: Can't Select a Custom Device in Eagle I have been using Eagle to reverse engineer a PSU schematic. I decided I needed to make a custom device in Eagle for the transformer. I have done this and it seems to be fine, except that when I put the symbol on a schematic, after I have confirmed its position, I can't select it, so I can't move it or anything. I have done some web searches but I can't find anything about this. Anyone know what the problem might be? I am using the free version, and I am on version 7.2.0. Looks like later versions are subscription only and I am reluctant to do that because they could take away access at any time. Thanks Rob From healyzh at avanthar.com Sat Mar 7 11:27:14 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 09:27:14 -0800 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <03393efb-855c-9fae-4724-a3e014361768@thereinhardts.org> References: <9CCE9B978F7C964097645E1FC2BC99DD20C318@mail.wiz.local> <03393efb-855c-9fae-4724-a3e014361768@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: <827FD777-27E5-4E4D-8A37-CD7A43B83E95@avanthar.com> > On Mar 7, 2020, at 9:07 AM, John H. Reinhardt wrote: > > On 3/7/2020 8:10 AM, Zane Healy wrote: >> On Mar 7, 2020, at 5:00 AM, Michael Kerpan via cctalk > wrote: >>> >>> Well that's sad news. Since VMS Software may or may not ever launch a >>> proper hobbyist program and has stated that they don't have the ability to >>> issue licenses for VAX versions of VMS, that means we have until 2021 to >>> legally use VMS on the vintage hardware or emulations. After that, I guess >>> we will have to either sail the seven seas or learn to love 4.3BSD... >>> >>> Mike >> If VSI doesn?t have the ability to issue VAX versions of the VMS license, will it be possible to buy VAX licenses? I?m curious as about five years ago, I had to help buy VAX/VMS licenses for a project. >> Zane > > On the HECnet list, David Moylan had sent an inqujiry to the OpenVMS Customer Lab and got this as a response > > " Users who wish to avail of HPE OpenVMS long term licenses are encouraged to > > purchase permanent licenses at standard prices. You may contact [Fellman, Jon] > > for the same." > > > So this HP person, Jon Fellman looks like the person to ask about buying an OpenVMS VAX license. I've sent him an email but I don't expect a response until Monday at least. The "standard prices" part doesn't' look encouraging. > > -- > John H. Reinhardt The thing is, most people don?t know they need a real VAX/VMS license, until they find themselves doing something that will require it at some point in the future. It?s not a normal need, but it is one I?ve seen. I sure can?t justify buying any right now. Zane From jason at smbfc.net Sat Mar 7 12:33:57 2020 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 10:33:57 -0800 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <827FD777-27E5-4E4D-8A37-CD7A43B83E95@avanthar.com> References: <9CCE9B978F7C964097645E1FC2BC99DD20C318@mail.wiz.local> <03393efb-855c-9fae-4724-a3e014361768@thereinhardts.org> <827FD777-27E5-4E4D-8A37-CD7A43B83E95@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <18b70e56-f1bf-83c0-2076-e7c8d32260ab@smbfc.net> One of the machines I have still has it's permanent license (along with the pretty paper license) for the OS.? It's all the auxiliary packages you need to do anything useful that are going to be the headache. --Jason On 3/7/20 9:27 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > >> On Mar 7, 2020, at 9:07 AM, John H. Reinhardt wrote: >> >> On 3/7/2020 8:10 AM, Zane Healy wrote: >>> On Mar 7, 2020, at 5:00 AM, Michael Kerpan via cctalk > wrote: >>>> Well that's sad news. Since VMS Software may or may not ever launch a >>>> proper hobbyist program and has stated that they don't have the ability to >>>> issue licenses for VAX versions of VMS, that means we have until 2021 to >>>> legally use VMS on the vintage hardware or emulations. After that, I guess >>>> we will have to either sail the seven seas or learn to love 4.3BSD... >>>> >>>> Mike >>> If VSI doesn?t have the ability to issue VAX versions of the VMS license, will it be possible to buy VAX licenses? I?m curious as about five years ago, I had to help buy VAX/VMS licenses for a project. >>> Zane >> On the HECnet list, David Moylan had sent an inqujiry to the OpenVMS Customer Lab and got this as a response >> >> " Users who wish to avail of HPE OpenVMS long term licenses are encouraged to >> >> purchase permanent licenses at standard prices. You may contact [Fellman, Jon] >> >> for the same." >> >> >> So this HP person, Jon Fellman looks like the person to ask about buying an OpenVMS VAX license. I've sent him an email but I don't expect a response until Monday at least. The "standard prices" part doesn't' look encouraging. >> >> -- >> John H. Reinhardt > > The thing is, most people don?t know they need a real VAX/VMS license, until they find themselves doing something that will require it at some point in the future. It?s not a normal need, but it is one I?ve seen. I sure can?t justify buying any right now. > > Zane > > From rlloken at telus.net Sat Mar 7 12:48:20 2020 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 11:48:20 -0700 (MST) Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <9CCE9B978F7C964097645E1FC2BC99DD20C318@mail.wiz.local> Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Mar 2020, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: > For those interested, HPE has finally, formally announced the end of their > participation in the OpenVMS Hobbyist Program.? A number of people have > received the below message from HPE, probably everyone they have on record > as having current Hobbyist licenses. I humbly suggest that HPE might issue VAX hobbyist licenses that don't expire since they and VSI don't have a significant financial interest in it. Removing the expiration date does not remove any obligation from the licence holder and does not remove HPE's rights as the owner of the software. Alpha and Itanium licenses are a differant matter, there is still a market for them and development continuues to some degree. I only run an Alpha hobby machine so I have nothing to gain from a lifetime VAX license. I have both PMDF and Multinet licenses that don't expire and I paid honest money for them but I doubt I can afford the price of a VMS license. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear, Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From healyzh at avanthar.com Sat Mar 7 16:08:11 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 14:08:11 -0800 Subject: Printer Transparencies? Message-ID: <18A156F7-E95A-47FB-9A43-393ACC19635F@avanthar.com> Here is a strange question. Does anyone happen to know how long unused Laser Printer and Ink Jet transparencies last? Do they go bad, or break down? I have a stack of them, still in the boxes, a lot are unopened. I scavenged them about 10 years ago, when people were getting rid of them. I wanted them for a Photography Project, that I?ve never had time to try. At this point, I?d like to know if I?m wasting space storing them. Zane From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Mar 7 17:23:42 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 18:23:42 -0500 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <9CCE9B978F7C964097645E1FC2BC99DD20C318@mail.wiz.local> Message-ID: On 3/7/20 9:10 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > On Mar 7, 2020, at 5:00 AM, Michael Kerpan via cctalk wrote: >> >> Well that's sad news. Since VMS Software may or may not ever launch a >> proper hobbyist program and has stated that they don't have the ability to >> issue licenses for VAX versions of VMS, that means we have until 2021 to >> legally use VMS on the vintage hardware or emulations. After that, I guess >> we will have to either sail the seven seas or learn to love 4.3BSD... >> >> Mike > > If VSI doesn?t have the ability to issue VAX versions of the VMS license, will it be possible to buy VAX licenses? I?m curious as about five years ago, I had to help buy VAX/VMS licenses for a project. My understanding is if something doesn't change to allow VSI to issue VAX licenses there will be no way to legally run a VMS on a VAX as HPE will be out of the business completely. bill From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Sat Mar 7 17:32:35 2020 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 17:32:35 -0600 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <9CCE9B978F7C964097645E1FC2BC99DD20C318@mail.wiz.local> Message-ID: <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> On 3/7/2020 5:23 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 3/7/20 9:10 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> On Mar 7, 2020, at 5:00 AM, Michael Kerpan via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> Well that's sad news. Since VMS Software may or may not ever launch a >>> proper hobbyist program and has stated that they don't have the ability to >>> issue licenses for VAX versions of VMS, that means we have until 2021 to >>> legally use VMS on the vintage hardware or emulations. After that, I guess >>> we will have to either sail the seven seas or learn to love 4.3BSD... >>> >>> Mike >> >> If VSI doesn?t have the ability to issue VAX versions of the VMS license, will it be possible to buy VAX licenses?? I?m curious as about five years ago, I had to help buy VAX/VMS licenses for a project. > > My understanding is if something doesn't change to allow VSI to > issue VAX licenses there will be no way to legally run a VMS on > a VAX as HPE will be out of the business completely. > > bill > I would think that those that already have legal VAX PAKs/licenses could still run them. It's just no *NEW* PAKs could be legally generated. -- John H. Reinhardt From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Sat Mar 7 18:02:29 2020 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 18:02:29 -0600 (CST) Subject: Printer Transparencies? In-Reply-To: <18A156F7-E95A-47FB-9A43-393ACC19635F@avanthar.com> References: <18A156F7-E95A-47FB-9A43-393ACC19635F@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <885864304.51554.1583625749734@email.ionos.com> > On March 7, 2020 at 4:08 PM Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > Here is a strange question. Does anyone happen to know how long unused Laser Printer and Ink Jet transparencies last? Do they go bad, or break down? I have a stack of them, still in the boxes, a lot are unopened. I scavenged them about 10 years ago, when people were getting rid of them. > I wanted them for a Photography Project, that I?ve never had time to try. At this point, I?d like to know if I?m wasting space storing them. > Zane I have printed on some after about 7 years of having an open box. Never had any problems. I also have some that were printed maybe 15 years ago that don't seem to have degraded at all. But that is only from looking at them and what is printed on them. They are PCB layouts with 10 mil traces which seem to have held up well. The material seems the same as fresh out of the box. My guess is they would still be printable. "The names of global variables should start with // " -- https://isocpp.org From sales at elecplus.com Sat Mar 7 22:30:26 2020 From: sales at elecplus.com (sales at elecplus.com) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2020 22:30:26 -0600 Subject: Is this IBM keyboard compatible with the IBM 3279? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <386a3ac934cff84a10ef00506f7c9f98@elecplus.com> On 2020-03-03 10:48, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > The connector is the correct one. It has four jumpers that could be > used > for setting one of the keyboard types using the KB ident lines. > > https://i.imgur.com/PhfvKaV.jpg > > https://i.imgur.com/VPT38cK.jpg > > https://i.imgur.com/nN1gtFu.jpg > > Which terminal was it used for originally? > > /Mattis https://deskthority.net/wiki/IBM_Model_F It appears to be from a 3101? Cindy From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 01:10:39 2020 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 01:10:39 -0600 Subject: soviet resistor identification help and maybe lamps? Message-ID: trying to identify these soviet resistors anyone familiar with how they marked them i see 620 on these ones for the panel bulbs https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/49633358106/in/dateposted-public/ want to test all the lamps with power but i dont know where to start with testing. i see markings for 220V on the power feed plug https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/49621260392/in/dateposted-public/ bulbs https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/49623473996/in/dateposted-public/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/49623475146/in/dateposted-public/ From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sun Mar 8 01:26:23 2020 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 23:26:23 -0800 Subject: soviet resistor identification help and maybe lamps? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020-Mar-07, at 11:10 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > trying to identify these soviet resistors anyone familiar with how they > marked them i see 620 on these ones for the panel bulbs > https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/49633358106/in/dateposted-public/ > > want to test all the lamps with power but i dont know where to start with > testing. > > i see markings for 220V on the power feed plug > https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/49621260392/in/dateposted-public/ > > bulbs > https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/49623473996/in/dateposted-public/ > https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/49623475146/in/dateposted-public/ Are they neon lamps or filament (incandescent) lamps? It would seem a little odd to be using neon lamps like that on a solid-state machine but it's not impossible. As for R value, you have a multi-meter don't you? Why are you being so shy, hiding the good stuff from us?: https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/49620991591/in/dateposted-public/ From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 01:35:23 2020 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 01:35:23 -0600 Subject: soviet resistor identification help and maybe lamps? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: yea i do but its not giving me anything thats making sens the value jumps all over the place. on the ones ive tried lamps not sure how u tell what they are no marking on them rather tiny join the discord u woulda seen it there From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Mar 8 01:44:32 2020 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 08:44:32 +0100 Subject: soviet resistor identification help and maybe lamps? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200308074432.GA80220@beast.freibergnet.de> Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > trying to identify these soviet resistors anyone familiar with how they > marked them i see 620 on these ones for the panel bulbs > https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/49633358106/in/dateposted-public/ > > want to test all the lamps with power but i dont know where to start with > testing. > > i see markings for 220V on the power feed plug > https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/49621260392/in/dateposted-public/ > > bulbs > https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/49623473996/in/dateposted-public/ > https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/49623475146/in/dateposted-public/ Not mutch to see on your pictures..better photos? The Lamps seems to be neon lampes and at 220V the only resitor volue that makes sense and has a 620 in it is 620K. The resistors could be labeled with 620k or witn M620. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 03:20:08 2020 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 03:20:08 -0500 Subject: soviet resistor identification help and maybe lamps? In-Reply-To: <20200308074432.GA80220@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20200308074432.GA80220@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: not seeing anything els other then the 620 hard to get any decent shots of them with out a macro lens though as for the lamps if i wanted to test them one at a time would i just give them 12V directly? or would it be lower dont have a variable power supply atm just an old pc one On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 1:44 AM Holm Tiffe wrote: > Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > > > trying to identify these soviet resistors anyone familiar with how they > > marked them i see 620 on these ones for the panel bulbs > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/49633358106/in/dateposted-public/ > > > > want to test all the lamps with power but i dont know where to start with > > testing. > > > > i see markings for 220V on the power feed plug > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/49621260392/in/dateposted-public/ > > > > bulbs > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/49623473996/in/dateposted-public/ > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/49623475146/in/dateposted-public/ > > Not mutch to see on your pictures..better photos? > > The Lamps seems to be neon lampes and at 220V the only resitor volue > that makes sense and has a 620 in it is 620K. > The resistors could be labeled with 620k or witn M620. > > Regards, > > Holm > > -- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > > From djg at pdp8online.com Sat Mar 7 13:38:39 2020 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 14:38:39 -0500 Subject: ISO earl TI DSP kits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200307193839.GA11752@hugin3> My previous employer likely still has the the in circuit emulator for the TMS32010 unless they cleaned up. If the CHM is intereted in it I can enquire if they would like to donate it. I know I have some of the stuff since previous work used them as fast microcontrollers. Should have the data books though I think they were perfect bound. May have others that I snagged when it was being thrown out. I have the wirewrap prototype of the radar scan converter where we used the C30. I found around 70 disks for the TMS320C30 and TMS340x0. I can read these Let me know your current desires for archiving such as IMD or files, text label info or disk pictures etc. Do you want the TMS340 graphics processor disk images also? Small chance I have some TMS32010 stuff though not likely to find it any time soon. Earliest work was on VAX and I know that is all gone. I didn't personally do any of the '10 work. On Fri, Mar 06, 2020 at 11:53:27AM -0800, Al Kossow wrote: > CHM doesn't seem to have much early DSP stuff in the collection > Does anyone have any of the TMS32010/20/30 or C1x/2x/3x hw/sw kicking around? > > Other than the docs I've scanned there doesn't seem to be much on the web either. > > > > ------------------------------ From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Mar 7 13:45:28 2020 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 14:45:28 -0500 Subject: ISO earl TI DSP kits In-Reply-To: <20200307193839.GA11752@hugin3> References: <20200307193839.GA11752@hugin3> Message-ID: <3e384416-47f4-7279-6123-6cc44b24d350@telegraphics.com.au> On 2020-03-07 2:38 PM, David Gesswein via cctech wrote: > My previous employer likely still has the the in circuit emulator for the > TMS32010 unless they cleaned up. If the CHM is intereted in it I can > enquire if they would like to donate it. > > I know I have some of the stuff since previous work used them as fast > microcontrollers. Should have the data books though I think they were > perfect bound. May have others that I snagged when it was being thrown out. > > I have the wirewrap prototype of the radar scan converter where we used the > C30. > > I found around 70 disks for the TMS320C30 and TMS340x0. I can read these > Let me know your current desires for archiving such as IMD or files, text label > info or disk pictures etc. Do you want the TMS340 graphics processor disk > images also? Curious what kind of tools that comprises and for what platform? The 340x0 was used in Truevision NuVista video cards and for a long time I was looking for the Mac (MPW I think) cross-development tools. --Toby > > Small chance I have some TMS32010 stuff though not likely to find it any > time soon. Earliest work was on VAX and I know that is all gone. I didn't > personally do any of the '10 work. > > On Fri, Mar 06, 2020 at 11:53:27AM -0800, Al Kossow wrote: >> CHM doesn't seem to have much early DSP stuff in the collection >> Does anyone have any of the TMS32010/20/30 or C1x/2x/3x hw/sw kicking around? >> >> Other than the docs I've scanned there doesn't seem to be much on the web either. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ From djg at pdp8online.com Sat Mar 7 13:54:24 2020 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 14:54:24 -0500 Subject: ISO earl TI DSP kits In-Reply-To: <3e384416-47f4-7279-6123-6cc44b24d350@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20200307193839.GA11752@hugin3> <3e384416-47f4-7279-6123-6cc44b24d350@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20200307195424.GB30272@hugin3> On Sat, Mar 07, 2020 at 02:45:28PM -0500, Toby Thain wrote: > > Curious what kind of tools that comprises and for what platform? The > 340x0 was used in Truevision NuVista video cards and for a long time I > was looking for the Mac (MPW I think) cross-development tools. > They were DOS tools. We used boards with the 34010 and 34020 in our emulator of military UYQ-4 and UYQ-21 displays. The UYQ were vector display list units which we emulated with 1280x1024 raster display. From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Sat Mar 7 14:29:19 2020 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B DiGriz) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 15:29:19 -0500 Subject: ISO earl TI DSP kits In-Reply-To: <20200307193839.GA11752@hugin3> References: <20200307193839.GA11752@hugin3> Message-ID: <20200307152919.343ad9c2@dragonsweb.org> On Sat, 7 Mar 2020 14:38:39 -0500 David Gesswein via cctech wrote: > > I found around 70 disks for the TMS320C30 and TMS340x0. I can read > these Let me know your current desires for archiving such as IMD or > files, text label info or disk pictures etc. Do you want the TMS340 > graphics processor disk images also? > I can't speak for Al, but I vote yes. I have a TMS340 project or two on the back burner. I'll be posting the BBS320 archive and some more stuff for Al in about 2 hrs at the present bandwidth-limited rate of upload to my ftp server Somewhere I have a few of the documentation CD's which I think a few have some code on them, but those are more 2nd Gen and later, as I recall. I'll see if I can find them, though. jbdigriz From mark.kahrs at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 21:02:15 2020 From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 22:02:15 -0500 Subject: AT&T DSPs Message-ID: I have various TI DSP documentation but also have AT&T DSPs, in particular, the DSP16. The DSP32C was much more popular however. From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sun Mar 8 04:35:50 2020 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 01:35:50 -0800 Subject: soviet resistor identification help and maybe lamps? In-Reply-To: References: <20200308074432.GA80220@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <6FE1170D-21C3-4B0C-B4BB-921DCA99A54B@shaw.ca> On 2020-Mar-07, at 11:35 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > yea i do but its not giving me anything thats making sens the value jumps all over the place. on the ones ive tried If the Rs are high value, set the MM to the 2Mohm range and make sure your fingers are not touching the metal circuit elements / test probes. At high-R you and your fingers will be a conductive path and the R will vary with your finger pressure and give erratic readings. > lamps not sure how u tell what they are no marking on them rather tiny Incandescent lamps have two riser wires that diverge at the top with a filament inbetween them, neon lamps of that size usually have two thick parallel 'posts' inside them. On 2020-Mar-08, at 12:20 AM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > as for the lamps if i wanted to test them one at a time would i just give > them 12V directly? or would it be lower dont have a variable power supply > atm just an old pc one No 5V on the PS? 12V could be too much or too little. You could try it very briefly, or you could try putting a (say) 100 ohm R in series with the lamp and 12V to limit the current and see if you get any illumination. Ideally, measure the voltage across the 100 ohm R, if the voltage drop is 0, it's a burned out incandescent lamp or they're neon lamps. From leec2124 at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 11:14:18 2020 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 09:14:18 -0700 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <9CCE9B978F7C964097645E1FC2BC99DD20C318@mail.wiz.local> Message-ID: John, Thanks for the heads up. What would you suggest one enter for the mandatory fields: Participating Chapter * and Membership Number * Lee Courtney On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 3:34 AM John H. Reinhardt via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > For those interested, HPE has finally, formally announced the end of their > participation in the OpenVMS Hobbyist Program. A number of people have > received the below message from HPE, probably everyone they have on record > as having current Hobbyist licenses. > > > If you have any current or future ( at least before the end of 2021 ) > interest in Hobbyist licenses for any version of OpenVMS from 5.0 through > 8.4 for VAX ( only up to 7.3) or Alpha and Itanium, then register now. HPE > is looking to find out how many are interested in Hobbyist offerings and > even though the new license will be good through 2021, I don't expect them > to be generating them past the end of 2020 and maybe sooner. > > Register for Hobbyist PAKs at one of the following (I suggest the HPE > address first): > > https://www.hpe.com/h41268/live/index_e.aspx?qid=24548 > > http://plato.ccsscorp.com/hobbyist_registration.php > Note the underscore between hobbyist and registration in > hobbyist_registration. > > One Hobbyist user reports this: > > > I?ve just received an update from the OpenVMS Customer lab: > > Here?s the message from the OpenVMS team. The idea was that hobbyists > would visit the site and renew their licenses, and in response, we would > provide the final set of licenses, > > explaining the scenario: > > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > > As we approach the end of the HPE OpenVMS V8.4 standard support > period, HPE > > plans to conclude the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program. > > The HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses we are issuing in 2020 will be > the last set. > > Subsequently, HPE will not issue new HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses. > Attached > > is the final set of the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses. These final > licenses > > are valid through December 31st, 2021. We hope that this additional > validity > > period will enable users to plan for the future. > > Users who wish to avail of HPE OpenVMS long term licenses are > encouraged to > > purchase permanent licenses at standard prices. You may contact > [Fellman, Jon] > > > for the same. > > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > > Cheers, Wiz!! > > > John H. Reinhardt > > > *From:*owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] *On > Behalf Of *David Moylan > *Sent:* Saturday, 7 March 2020 4:14 PM > *To:* hecnet at Update.UU.SE > *Subject:* [HECnet] HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing > > Hi all, > > Just received the e-mail below. I?ve hunted around all the various > Hobbyist locations and licensing pages and can?t find any additional > information. > > I?ve already replied back to ask what the impact of Hobbyist renewal > licensing will be. I have no further information at this stage. > > Have others received this as well? Does anyone have any further knowledge > on this? > > I can see a few people have forwarded/posted the same message on > comp.os.vms. > > Cheers, Wiz!! > > *From:*OpenVMS Customer Lab [mailto:openvmscustomerlab at hpe.com] > *Sent:* Saturday, 7 March 2020 3:13 PM > *Cc:* OpenVMS Customer Lab > *Subject:* OpenVMS Hobbyist Notification > > Dear HPE OpenVMS hobbyist, > > This is to inform you that HPE is concluding the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist > license program in alignment with the HPE OpenVMS support roadmap. > > If you wish to understand more details, please reach out to us at the > earliest through the usual license renewal webpage. > > Thank you. > > HPE OpenVMS team > > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Mar 8 12:04:41 2020 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 13:04:41 -0400 Subject: ISO earl TI DSP kits In-Reply-To: <20200307193839.GA11752@hugin3> References: <20200307193839.GA11752@hugin3> Message-ID: On 2020-03-07 14:38, David Gesswein via cctalk wrote: > I found around 70 disks for the TMS320C30 and TMS340x0. I can read these > Let me know your current desires for archiving such as IMD or files, text label > info or disk pictures etc. Do you want the TMS340 graphics processor disk > images also? Please share those ... From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Mar 8 12:04:41 2020 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 13:04:41 -0400 Subject: ISO earl TI DSP kits In-Reply-To: <20200307193839.GA11752@hugin3> References: <20200307193839.GA11752@hugin3> Message-ID: On 2020-03-07 14:38, David Gesswein via cctalk wrote: > I found around 70 disks for the TMS320C30 and TMS340x0. I can read these > Let me know your current desires for archiving such as IMD or files, text label > info or disk pictures etc. Do you want the TMS340 graphics processor disk > images also? Please share those ... From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Mar 8 12:05:30 2020 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 13:05:30 -0400 Subject: ISO earl TI DSP kits In-Reply-To: <3e384416-47f4-7279-6123-6cc44b24d350@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20200307193839.GA11752@hugin3> <3e384416-47f4-7279-6123-6cc44b24d350@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 2020-03-07 14:45, Toby Thain via cctech wrote: > Curious what kind of tools that comprises and for what platform? The > 340x0 was used in Truevision NuVista video cards and for a long time I > was looking for the Mac (MPW I think) cross-development tools. Were also used in the VXT terminals from DEC ... From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 14:18:28 2020 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 12:18:28 -0700 Subject: soviet resistor identification help and maybe lamps? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9973B065-F243-40FF-B248-5F1A029CA81E@gmail.com> Adrian Congrats on your panel! It is very impressive! On the Russian resistors I saw, the value was what is written on it. If you can?t measure them, maybe there is some conformal coating or corrosion on the leads? You?d need to scratch that off. For the lamps, it might be time to invest in a variable power supply. Usually I start low (3V) and go up from there. The IBM ones are meant to be under-voltaged - at their voltage rating they are not glowing very bright. Marc > On Mar 8, 2020, at 7:38 AM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > > ?not seeing anything els other then the 620 > hard to get any decent shots of them with out a macro lens though > > as for the lamps if i wanted to test them one at a time would i just give > them 12V directly? or would it be lower dont have a variable power supply > atm just an old pc one > >> On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 1:44 AM Holm Tiffe wrote: >> >> Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: >> >>> trying to identify these soviet resistors anyone familiar with how they >>> marked them i see 620 on these ones for the panel bulbs >>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/49633358106/in/dateposted-public/ >>> >>> want to test all the lamps with power but i dont know where to start with >>> testing. >>> >>> i see markings for 220V on the power feed plug >>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/49621260392/in/dateposted-public/ >>> >>> bulbs >>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/49623473996/in/dateposted-public/ >>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/49623475146/in/dateposted-public/ >> >> Not mutch to see on your pictures..better photos? >> >> The Lamps seems to be neon lampes and at 220V the only resitor volue >> that makes sense and has a 620 in it is 620K. >> The resistors could be labeled with 620k or witn M620. >> >> Regards, >> >> Holm >> >> -- >> Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, >> Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 >> info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 >> >> From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Sun Mar 8 15:21:27 2020 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 15:21:27 -0500 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <9CCE9B978F7C964097645E1FC2BC99DD20C318@mail.wiz.local> Message-ID: <03a28f1e-807d-423d-6707-33a44e56357e@thereinhardts.org> On 3/8/2020 11:14 AM, Lee Courtney wrote: > John, > > Thanks for the heads up. What would you suggest one enter for the mandatory fields: Participating Chapter * and Membership Number * > > Lee Courtney > You need to belong to a DECUS chapter in order to get the Hobbyist license. The easiest way now (and cheapest) is to ssh to eisner.decus.org and log in with the username of "REGISTRATION". That will take you through the process of getting an account. These instructions are also a the bottom the page at As a result you get a DECUS member number which you can use on the HPE Hobbyist registration site. Participating Chapter would be "DECUServe" (it's at the end of the list). IIRC there is about a two week wait from the time you get your member number on Eisner until the number is active in the HPE database for the Hobbyist license so you may have to wait a bit. In the meantime you have an Eisner account which is an Alphaserver DS20 running OpenVMS V8.4 to play with. If you are new to VMS then "HELP" is your friend. You can find out just about anything you wanted to know starting with "HELP". John H Reinhardt > On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 3:34 AM John H. Reinhardt via cctalk > wrote: > > For those interested, HPE has finally, formally announced the end of their participation in the OpenVMS Hobbyist Program.? A number of people have received the below message from HPE, probably everyone they have on record as having current Hobbyist licenses. > > > If you have any current or future ( at least before the end of 2021 ) interest in Hobbyist licenses for any version of OpenVMS from 5.0 through 8.4 for VAX ( only up to 7.3) or Alpha and Itanium, then register now.? HPE is looking to find out how many are interested in Hobbyist offerings and even though the new license will be good through 2021, I don't expect them to be generating them past the end of 2020 and maybe sooner. > > Register for Hobbyist PAKs at one of the following (I suggest the HPE address first): > > https://www.hpe.com/h41268/live/index_e.aspx?qid=24548 > > http://plato.ccsscorp.com/hobbyist_registration.php > ? ? Note the underscore between hobbyist and registration in hobbyist_registration. > > One Hobbyist user reports this: > > > ? ? I?ve just received an update from the OpenVMS Customer lab: > > ? ? Here?s the message from the OpenVMS team.? The idea was that hobbyists would visit the site and renew their licenses, and in response, we would provide the final set of licenses, > > ? ? explaining the scenario: > > ? ? =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > > ? ? ?? As we approach the end of the HPE OpenVMS V8.4 standard support period, HPE > > ? ? ???plans to conclude the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program. > > ? ? ?? The HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses we are issuing in 2020 will be the last set. > > ? ? ???Subsequently, HPE will not issue new HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses. Attached > > ? ? ???is the final set of the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses. These final licenses > > ? ? ???are valid through December 31st, 2021. We hope that this additional validity > > ? ? ???period will enable users to plan for the future. > > ? ? ?? Users who wish to avail of HPE OpenVMS long term licenses are encouraged to > > ? ? ???purchase permanent licenses at standard prices. You may contact [Fellman, Jon] > > ? ? ??? >> for the same. > > ? ? =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > > ? ? Cheers, Wiz!! > > > John H. Reinhardt > > > *From:*owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE ] *On Behalf Of *David Moylan > *Sent:* Saturday, 7 March 2020 4:14 PM > *To:* hecnet at Update.UU.SE > *Subject:* [HECnet] HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing > > Hi all, > > Just received the e-mail below. I?ve hunted around all the various Hobbyist locations and licensing pages and can?t find any additional information. > > I?ve already replied back to ask what the impact of Hobbyist renewal licensing will be. I have no further information at this stage. > > Have others received this as well? Does anyone have any further knowledge on this? > > I can see a few people have forwarded/posted the same message on comp.os.vms. > > Cheers, Wiz!! > > *From:*OpenVMS Customer Lab [mailto:openvmscustomerlab at hpe.com ] > *Sent:* Saturday, 7 March 2020 3:13 PM > *Cc:* OpenVMS Customer Lab > *Subject:* OpenVMS Hobbyist Notification > > Dear HPE OpenVMS hobbyist, > > This is to inform you that HPE is concluding the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program in alignment with the HPE OpenVMS support roadmap. > > If you wish to understand more details, please reach out to us at the earliest through the usual license renewal webpage. > > Thank you. > > HPE OpenVMS team > > > > -- > Lee Courtney > +1-650-704-3934 cell -- John H. Reinhardt From carlos_murillo at ieee.org Sun Mar 8 16:12:50 2020 From: carlos_murillo at ieee.org (C Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 16:12:50 -0500 Subject: RD53 failure modes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 6:16 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 7 Feb 2020, Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk wrote: > > system originally came with an RD53 that has sat elsewhere for 25 > years. It > > passed a read test in 2005. So I tried to see if I could read it and > maybe > > image it now, but no go. The disk spins up, initiates a seek (the arm is > not > > stuck in a gooey stop pad; I've read that this is a common failure > mechanism > > for Micropolis 1325's; I opened it and saw the arm move) but then the > arm > > returns violently (clacking) to the rest position; it does this a number > of > > times (two to four, usually) and then it spins down. Applied voltages > and > > currents remain ok as this happens. > > If nobody speaks up who actually know anything about them, . . . > > Q: Is the return to the reset position more violent than the usual return? > If it is not different, then consider the possibility of something not > related to positioner, such as: seek to track, try to READ, FAIL, reset, > REPEAT. In which case, it could be anything that caused the read to fail, > such as head problems, failing to find the servo data, . . . > Sorry for not replying earlier, your message made it to the spam folder. The return is more violent than the usual return. I put a piece of paper between the arm stop and the arm, and this did not modify the behavior. I am now inclined to think that it is failing to find the servo data. carlos. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Mar 8 21:01:35 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 19:01:35 -0700 Subject: ISO earl TI DSP kits In-Reply-To: <20200307193839.GA11752@hugin3> References: <20200307193839.GA11752@hugin3> Message-ID: <22ad8306-c46e-7480-c7da-080d9a31e3ba@bitsavers.org> On 3/7/20 11:38 AM, David Gesswein via cctalk wrote: > I found around 70 disks for the TMS320C30 and TMS340x0. I can read these > Let me know your current desires for archiving such as IMD or files, text label > info or disk pictures etc. Do you want the TMS340 graphics processor disk > images also? > an imd with a scan of the label for provenance would be great. tms320 and 340 are both interesting. I have a set of TIGA disk images but one of the TIGA disks had a bunch of bad sectors which corrupted the zip files a zip of the bbs320 files from Jim are up on bitsavers now I also put up a couple of dsp documentation cds from the late 90s From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Mar 8 21:06:19 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 19:06:19 -0700 Subject: does anyone have a tektronix 4170? Message-ID: Went to Sacramento today to pick this up https://www.ebay.com/itm/TEKTRONIX-Model-4170-Local-Graphics-Processor/372967901897 and it's missing the cpu and memory boards If I can get pictures of them, I'm going to ask the seller to look for them in the stuff that they still have. From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 22:04:00 2020 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 20:04:00 -0700 Subject: does anyone have a tektronix 4170? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 8, 2020, 7:13 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Went to Sacramento today to pick this up > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/TEKTRONIX-Model-4170-Local-Graphics-Processor/372967901897 > > and it's missing the cpu and memory boards > > If I can get pictures of them, I'm going to ask the seller to look for > them in the > stuff that they still have. > Wondered who grabbed that one. Did it come with any boards? I forget, maybe there are at least 3 boards, CPU, memory, and floppy/SASI controller in the card cage, plus the Xebec S1410 board for the MFM hard drive. I'll see if I can pull one out for images of the boards. You already have images of the original floppy disks I have. > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Mar 9 00:14:44 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 22:14:44 -0700 Subject: does anyone have a tektronix 4170? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <75b204dd-a556-53b5-0a5e-950b78945e15@bitsavers.org> On 3/8/20 8:04 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > Wondered who grabbed that one. Did it come with any boards? IO and floppy he also had an external floppy/hard disk box but the 4170 didn't appear to have an external sasi connector I will try to dump the ST412 on monday From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Sun Mar 8 16:47:15 2020 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 16:47:15 -0500 (CDT) Subject: soviet resistor identification help and maybe lamps? In-Reply-To: References: <20200308074432.GA80220@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <1738919114.60096.1583704035530@email.ionos.com> > On March 8, 2020 at 3:20 AM Adrian Stoness via cctech wrote: > > not seeing anything els other then the 620hard to get any decent shots of them with out a macro lens though > as for the lamps if i wanted to test them one at a time would i just givethem 12V directly? or would it be lower dont have a variable power supplyatm just an old pc one > On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 1:44 AM Holm Tiffe wrote: > > Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:> > trying to identify these soviet resistors anyone familiar with how theymarked them i see 620 on these ones for the panel I found this document from the CIA in the 50s about Soviet parts: https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80-00809A000700030074-5.pdf Doesn't say much, but indicates they used either the numeric value printed on the resistor or the same color code we use. If the lamps are incandescent you should be able to measure the resistance of the filament, which would likely be in the 100 ish ohm range. A neon bulb should measure open (infinite) I believe. If the lamps are incandescent, the R could be to lower the voltage/brightness. You could try that resistor already there plus various values of resistance in series with the lamp to see if lights and how bright. Or a pot. With a 12V supply and a 1K R in series you couldn't push more than 12mA through it. I would suspect that would be plenty safe. Will From mattislind at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 02:43:26 2020 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 08:43:26 +0100 Subject: Is this IBM keyboard compatible with the IBM 3279? In-Reply-To: <386a3ac934cff84a10ef00506f7c9f98@elecplus.com> References: <386a3ac934cff84a10ef00506f7c9f98@elecplus.com> Message-ID: Den s?n 8 mars 2020 kl 05:30 skrev : > On 2020-03-03 10:48, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > > The connector is the correct one. It has four jumpers that could be > > used > > for setting one of the keyboard types using the KB ident lines. > > > > https://i.imgur.com/PhfvKaV.jpg > > > > https://i.imgur.com/VPT38cK.jpg > > > > https://i.imgur.com/nN1gtFu.jpg > > > > Which terminal was it used for originally? > > > > /Mattis > > https://deskthority.net/wiki/IBM_Model_F > > It appears to be from a 3101? > The 3101 has 15 pin DSUB while this has a 25 pin D-SUB. So, while very similar to 3178 and 3101 keyboards in many aspects I do think it is different. Maybe some kind of replacement keyboard for the big original 3278/3279 keyboard. Will trace the connections of the cable some day to verify, though. /Mattis > > Cindy > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Mar 9 09:10:47 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 07:10:47 -0700 Subject: does anyone have a tektronix 4170? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40209354-60de-4cdd-98a8-bb75af99f238@bitsavers.org> On 3/8/20 8:04 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > I'll see if I can pull one out for images of the boards. > could you dump the firmware while you have it out? From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 12:20:00 2020 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 11:20:00 -0600 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> References: <9CCE9B978F7C964097645E1FC2BC99DD20C318@mail.wiz.local> <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 4:32 PM John H. Reinhardt via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I would think that those that already have legal VAX PAKs/licenses could > still run them. It's just no *NEW* PAKs could be legally generated. > The hobby PAKs _and_ the licenses have a one-year expiration. From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Mon Mar 9 12:33:01 2020 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 12:33:01 -0500 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <9CCE9B978F7C964097645E1FC2BC99DD20C318@mail.wiz.local> <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> On 3/9/2020 12:20 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 4:32 PM John H. Reinhardt via cctalk > wrote: > > I would think that those that already have legal VAX PAKs/licenses could still run them. It's just no *NEW* PAKs could be legally generated. > > > The hobby PAKs _and_ the licenses have a one-year expiration. As a Hobbyist license holder since 2004 I am well aware. The language Bill used implied that no one would be able to legally run OpenVMS on a VAX. I was saying that those who had bought licenses previously (implying commercial and other entities) should still be legal in running VAX OpenVMS even after HPE shuts down their OpenVMS activities. Bill may have been intending just the Hobbyist (and educational licenses, too) but the language was ambiguous. -- John H. Reinhardt From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Mon Mar 9 14:19:21 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 12:19:21 -0700 Subject: Any fun SunWindows/SunView stuff? Message-ID: <72A2FDAB-BBFE-493A-8A1C-6040804BFF31@eschatologist.net> I have my Sun-4/110C set up and running SunOS 4.1.4. Were there any fun SunView applications or hacks back in the day? Other than the demos, the only stuff I currently have is emacstool (built as part of emacs 18.59) and the PLATO client (which I haven?t actually built yet). I know I can read through the comp.sources.unix archives but I figure maybe some folks might remember things to look for. -- Chris From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Mar 9 15:01:09 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 16:01:09 -0400 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> References: <9CCE9B978F7C964097645E1FC2BC99DD20C318@mail.wiz.local> <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: On 3/9/20 1:33 PM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: > On 3/9/2020 12:20 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 4:32 PM John H. Reinhardt via cctalk >> > wrote: >> >> ??? I would think that those that already have legal VAX PAKs/licenses >> could still run them. It's just no *NEW* PAKs could be legally generated. >> >> >> The hobby PAKs _and_ the licenses have a one-year expiration. > > As a Hobbyist license holder since 2004 I am well aware.? The language > Bill used implied that no one would be able to legally run OpenVMS on a > VAX.? I was saying that those who had bought licenses previously > (implying commercial and other entities) should still be legal in > running VAX OpenVMS even after HPE shuts down their OpenVMS activities. > Bill may have been intending just the Hobbyist (and educational > licenses, too) but the language was ambiguous. > Actually, as long as they can live with incorrect time Hobbyists could use that last set of PAKs forever. bill From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Mon Mar 9 16:00:59 2020 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 16:00:59 -0500 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <03a28f1e-807d-423d-6707-33a44e56357e@thereinhardts.org> References: <9CCE9B978F7C964097645E1FC2BC99DD20C318@mail.wiz.local> <03a28f1e-807d-423d-6707-33a44e56357e@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: <20200309210058.GA22221@RawFedDogs.net> On Sun, Mar 08, 2020 at 03:21:27PM -0500, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: > IIRC there is about a two week wait from the time you get your member > number on Eisner until the number is active in the HPE database for the > Hobbyist license so you may have to wait a bit. With one of my previous renewal requests, I made a typo and entered the wrong DECUS number. They still sent hobbyist license packs to me. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Mon Mar 9 16:23:14 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 14:23:14 -0700 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <9CCE9B978F7C964097645E1FC2BC99DD20C318@mail.wiz.local> <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> On Mar 9, 2020, at 1:01 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On 3/9/20 1:33 PM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: >> On 3/9/2020 12:20 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >>> On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 4:32 PM John H. Reinhardt via cctalk > wrote: >>> >>> I would think that those that already have legal VAX PAKs/licenses could still run them. It's just no *NEW* PAKs could be legally generated. >>> >>> >>> The hobby PAKs _and_ the licenses have a one-year expiration. >> As a Hobbyist license holder since 2004 I am well aware. The language Bill used implied that no one would be able to legally run OpenVMS on a VAX. I was saying that those who had bought licenses previously (implying commercial and other entities) should still be legal in running VAX OpenVMS even after HPE shuts down their OpenVMS activities. Bill may have been intending just the Hobbyist (and educational licenses, too) but the language was ambiguous. > > Actually, as long as they can live with incorrect time Hobbyists > could use that last set of PAKs forever. That?s from a technical perspective, from a legal perspective their license expired. -- Chris From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 16:26:30 2020 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 16:26:30 -0500 Subject: Any fun SunWindows/SunView stuff? In-Reply-To: <72A2FDAB-BBFE-493A-8A1C-6040804BFF31@eschatologist.net> References: <72A2FDAB-BBFE-493A-8A1C-6040804BFF31@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 2:19 PM Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: > Were there any fun SunView applications or hacks back in the day? > > Other than the demos, the only stuff I currently have is emacstool (built as part of emacs 18.59) and the PLATO client (which I haven?t actually built yet). I know I can read through the comp.sources.unix archives but I figure maybe some folks might remember things to look for. You're not fully experiencing SunOS if you're not running Pizzatool. From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Mon Mar 9 16:57:37 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 14:57:37 -0700 Subject: Any fun SunWindows/SunView stuff? In-Reply-To: References: <72A2FDAB-BBFE-493A-8A1C-6040804BFF31@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <4B29FCBB-AA23-45DD-902A-5D486ADFE7FC@eschatologist.net> On Mar 9, 2020, at 2:26 PM, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 2:19 PM Chris Hanson via cctalk > wrote: > >> Were there any fun SunView applications or hacks back in the day? >> >> Other than the demos, the only stuff I currently have is emacstool (built as part of emacs 18.59) and the PLATO client (which I haven?t actually built yet). I know I can read through the comp.sources.unix archives but I figure maybe some folks might remember things to look for. > > You're not fully experiencing SunOS if you're not running Pizzatool. Wasn?t that for NeWS? :) Which isn?t to say I won?t run it! Maybe if I can find the source I?ll hack it to be usable with the pizza place across the street from my home? -- Chris From doug at doughq.com Mon Mar 9 18:07:45 2020 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 10:07:45 +1100 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> References: <9CCE9B978F7C964097645E1FC2BC99DD20C318@mail.wiz.local> <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: So. At the end of the day there are three paths. 1. Accept that HP doesn't give two hoots about hobbyists and patch the abandoned operating system to fix the problem. 2. Declare that we need to develop an open replacement. Or 3. Accept that HP actually owns the rights to our VAX 11/785 machines and arrange for them to be dropped off at their corporate headquarters because they can't do anything without software. Sigh... On Tue, 10 Mar. 2020, 8:23 am Chris Hanson via cctalk, < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Mar 9, 2020, at 1:01 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On 3/9/20 1:33 PM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: > >> On 3/9/2020 12:20 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > >>> On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 4:32 PM John H. Reinhardt via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org > wrote: > >>> > >>> I would think that those that already have legal VAX PAKs/licenses > could still run them. It's just no *NEW* PAKs could be legally generated. > >>> > >>> > >>> The hobby PAKs _and_ the licenses have a one-year expiration. > >> As a Hobbyist license holder since 2004 I am well aware. The language > Bill used implied that no one would be able to legally run OpenVMS on a > VAX. I was saying that those who had bought licenses previously (implying > commercial and other entities) should still be legal in running VAX OpenVMS > even after HPE shuts down their OpenVMS activities. Bill may have been > intending just the Hobbyist (and educational licenses, too) but the > language was ambiguous. > > > > Actually, as long as they can live with incorrect time Hobbyists > > could use that last set of PAKs forever. > > That?s from a technical perspective, from a legal perspective their > license expired. > > -- Chris > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 9 21:19:03 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 19:19:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <9CCE9B978F7C964097645E1FC2BC99DD20C318@mail.wiz.local> <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: > So. > At the end of the day there are three paths. > 1. Accept that HP doesn't give two hoots about hobbyists and patch the > abandoned operating system to fix the problem. > 2. Declare that we need to develop an open replacement. > Or > 3. Accept that HP actually owns the rights to our VAX 11/785 machines and > arrange for them to be dropped off at their corporate headquarters because > they can't do anything without software. > Sigh... 4. Contemplate what would happen if dropped off from a considerable altitude, . . . It is discouraging that they have the power, and legal rights, to do what they like, but don't value the hobbyist market enough to try to help. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Mar 9 23:13:39 2020 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 04:13:39 +0000 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <9CCE9B978F7C964097645E1FC2BC99DD20C318@mail.wiz.local> <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <21c6de50-c671-20c3-725d-aaa11347020e@btinternet.com> On 10/03/2020 02:19, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: >> So. >> At the end of the day there are three paths. >> 1.? Accept that HP doesn't give two hoots about hobbyists and patch the >> abandoned operating system to fix the problem. >> 2. Declare that we need to develop an open replacement. >> Or >> 3.? Accept that HP actually owns the rights to our VAX 11/785 >> machines and >> arrange for them to be dropped off at their corporate headquarters >> because >> they can't do anything without software. >> Sigh... > > 4. Contemplate what would happen if dropped off from a considerable > altitude, . . . > > It is discouraging that they have the power, and legal rights, to do > what they like, but don't value the hobbyist market enough to try to > help. > > -- Like all large US corporations they are dollar driven From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 01:31:19 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 06:31:19 -0000 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <21c6de50-c671-20c3-725d-aaa11347020e@btinternet.com> References: <9CCE9B978F7C964097645E1FC2BC99DD20C318@mail.wiz.local> <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> <21c6de50-c671-20c3-725d-aaa11347020e@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <1c1301d5f6a5$849d0f60$8dd72e20$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Rod Smallwood > via cctalk > Sent: 10 March 2020 04:14 > To: Fred Cisin via cctalk > Subject: Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing > > On 10/03/2020 02:19, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > > On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: > >> So. > >> At the end of the day there are three paths. > >> 1. Accept that HP doesn't give two hoots about hobbyists and patch > >> the abandoned operating system to fix the problem. > >> 2. Declare that we need to develop an open replacement. > >> Or > >> 3. Accept that HP actually owns the rights to our VAX 11/785 > >> machines and arrange for them to be dropped off at their corporate > >> headquarters because they can't do anything without software. > >> Sigh... > > > > 4. Contemplate what would happen if dropped off from a considerable > > altitude, . . . > > > > It is discouraging that they have the power, and legal rights, to do > > what they like, but don't value the hobbyist market enough to try to > > help. > > > > > -- > Like all large US corporations they are dollar driven > I noticed that. I wonder how they would feel if I were to take my VAX to MakeFests with a notice on saying how much they want for a licence to actually load software and demo an antique machine.... Dave From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Mar 9 17:19:38 2020 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 18:19:38 -0400 Subject: Update - Re: DEC paper, drives, PDUs, chassis, etc (Toronto, Ontario) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <508f0d18-e936-c258-4573-8bcbb81bb594@telegraphics.com.au> On 2020-02-13 4:26 PM, Toby Thain via cctech wrote: > Hi, > > I have access to some DEC items for a month or two before a house is > sold. Photographs are linked here: > > https://imgur.com/a/HqxI4JA > > I can locate and forward any items, if still available, for actual > shipping costs and any nominal packaging material costs. > > Summary: Here's an update of what's claimed. The enthusiasm was unexpected. > > CLAIMED - Hitachi ESDI drives > STILL MANY AVAILABLE - RX50 drives (many) > CLAIMED - TK50 tapes (many) > CLAIMED - DEC Professional magazine 1987-1994 > CLAIMED - DECUS software abstracts > CLAIMED - DECUS software catalogues > CLAIMED - Controlling Software Projects (DeMARCO) > CLAIMED - Programming in C with Let's C (Vine) > CLAIMED - Surefire Programming in C (Stewart) > CLAIMED - PDP-11 Systems and Options Catalogs 1983-1989 > CLAIMED - Various databooks, DECdirect, etc > CLAIMED - DECUScope magazines > CLAIMED - Copies of RT-11 SIG newsletter(s) > CLAIMED - issues of digital Canadian Digest, 1980s > CLAIMED - DECUS Canada mailings > CLAIMED - digital news & review magazines ("The Independent Newspaper & Test Lab > of Open Computing for DEC Sites") > CLAIMED - various PDU units (see pic) > CLAIMED - RD52/RD53 drives > ABOUT SEVEN UNCLAIMED - But my ability to ship is limited. PICKUP still possible: various empty chassis/backplanes (see pics) > CLAIMED - BA23 shells (2) > various tapes, drives (see pics) ^^ Specifically there are several TK25 drives (hard to ship. PICKUP in Toronto definitely possible) There are also around 15 (maybe more) TK25 tapes. These are postable. --Toby > > As I said, last call, gone in 1-2 months. > > --Toby > From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 19:31:15 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 20:31:15 -0400 Subject: IMSAI PCS 80 30 ROM (original) Message-ID: Hi - I am looking for an IMSAI PCS 80-30 ROM image made for with the Tarbell 1011 controller and Persci 277..anyone have this? I received a system and drive but I think the ROM was replaced and since then I was told the system would no longer boot. In the meantime I am going to find a drive and controller that is compatible. Or, ug, have to try to edit the ROM I have (version 1.1) to operate with this hardware. I would not having a copy of ROM 1.0 at least to start from scratch with. Thanks Bill Degnan From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Mar 9 22:38:22 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 23:38:22 -0400 Subject: Update - Re: DEC paper, drives, PDUs, chassis, etc (Toronto, Ontario) In-Reply-To: <508f0d18-e936-c258-4573-8bcbb81bb594@telegraphics.com.au> References: <508f0d18-e936-c258-4573-8bcbb81bb594@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <0de1e19c-c037-735e-483e-595c4dfd3893@alembic.crystel.com> As I mentioned, I have a TQK25 controller and bulkhead that will work with the TK25. Pick up one of his and it's yours for shipping. Or trade me a working RX50 or two for it, I can always use those. On 3/9/2020 6:19 PM, Toby Thain via cctech wrote: > On 2020-02-13 4:26 PM, Toby Thain via cctech wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I have access to some DEC items for a month or two before a house is >> sold. Photographs are linked here: >> >> https://imgur.com/a/HqxI4JA >> >> I can locate and forward any items, if still available, for actual >> shipping costs and any nominal packaging material costs. >> >> Summary: > > Here's an update of what's claimed. The enthusiasm was unexpected. > >> >> CLAIMED - Hitachi ESDI drives >> STILL MANY AVAILABLE - RX50 drives (many) >> CLAIMED - TK50 tapes (many) >> CLAIMED - DEC Professional magazine 1987-1994 >> CLAIMED - DECUS software abstracts >> CLAIMED - DECUS software catalogues >> CLAIMED - Controlling Software Projects (DeMARCO) >> CLAIMED - Programming in C with Let's C (Vine) >> CLAIMED - Surefire Programming in C (Stewart) >> CLAIMED - PDP-11 Systems and Options Catalogs 1983-1989 >> CLAIMED - Various databooks, DECdirect, etc >> CLAIMED - DECUScope magazines >> CLAIMED - Copies of RT-11 SIG newsletter(s) >> CLAIMED - issues of digital Canadian Digest, 1980s >> CLAIMED - DECUS Canada mailings >> CLAIMED - digital news & review magazines ("The Independent Newspaper & Test Lab >> of Open Computing for DEC Sites") >> CLAIMED - various PDU units (see pic) >> CLAIMED - RD52/RD53 drives >> ABOUT SEVEN UNCLAIMED - But my ability to ship is limited. PICKUP still possible: various empty chassis/backplanes (see pics) >> CLAIMED - BA23 shells (2) >> various tapes, drives (see pics) > > ^^ Specifically there are several TK25 drives (hard to ship. PICKUP in > Toronto definitely possible) > > There are also around 15 (maybe more) TK25 tapes. These are postable. > > > > --Toby > > >> >> As I said, last call, gone in 1-2 months. >> >> --Toby >> > From abuse at cabal.org.uk Tue Mar 10 04:48:50 2020 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 10:48:50 +0100 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <20200310094850.GA30101@mooli.org.uk> On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 10:07:45AM +1100, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: > At the end of the day there are three paths. > 1. Accept that HP doesn't give two hoots about hobbyists and patch the > abandoned operating system to fix the problem. Welcome to the eyepatch-and-parrot approach of the rest of us on closed-source platforms which never had a hobbyist programme to start with and/or the IP has been scattered to the winds and it's unclear who to approach for a licence. > 2. Declare that we need to develop an open replacement. There is FreeVMS, but there also doesn't seem to have been any progress on it in the last decade and its domain has been lost and taken over by a squatter. Writing an operating system is *hard*, way beyond a weekend's hacking which is how most open source projects get going. Cloning an existing one is doubly-so because it has to be bug-compatible. Linux has taken thirty years to get this far. It's arguable what is "major" but to a rough approximation, there are no good open source clones of other operating systems of similar complexity: I'm aware of FreeDOS, AROS, EmuTOS and a few others, but they're relatively simple. > 3. Accept that HP actually owns the rights to our VAX 11/785 machines and > arrange for them to be dropped off at their corporate headquarters because > they can't do anything without software. Will this "drop off" be by B-52? :) From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Mar 10 08:44:01 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 09:44:01 -0400 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <9CCE9B978F7C964097645E1FC2BC99DD20C318@mail.wiz.local> <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: On 3/9/20 10:19 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: >> So. >> At the end of the day there are three paths. >> 1.? Accept that HP doesn't give two hoots about hobbyists and patch the >> abandoned operating system to fix the problem. >> 2. Declare that we need to develop an open replacement. >> Or >> 3.? Accept that HP actually owns the rights to our VAX 11/785 machines >> and >> arrange for them to be dropped off at their corporate headquarters >> because >> they can't do anything without software. >> Sigh... > > 4. Contemplate what would happen if dropped off from a considerable > altitude, . . . > > It is discouraging that they have the power, and legal rights, to do > what they like, With their own property > but don't value the hobbyist market enough to try to help. Which costs them money with very likely no ROI. What a way to run a business. :-) bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Mar 10 08:47:06 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 09:47:06 -0400 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <21c6de50-c671-20c3-725d-aaa11347020e@btinternet.com> References: <9CCE9B978F7C964097645E1FC2BC99DD20C318@mail.wiz.local> <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> <21c6de50-c671-20c3-725d-aaa11347020e@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On 3/10/20 12:13 AM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: >> On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: >>> So. >>> At the end of the day there are three paths. >>> 1.? Accept that HP doesn't give two hoots about hobbyists and patch the >>> abandoned operating system to fix the problem. >>> 2. Declare that we need to develop an open replacement. >>> Or >>> 3.? Accept that HP actually owns the rights to our VAX 11/785 >>> machines and >>> arrange for them to be dropped off at their corporate headquarters >>> because >>> they can't do anything without software. >>> Sigh... >> >> 4. Contemplate what would happen if dropped off from a considerable >> altitude, . . . >> >> It is discouraging that they have the power, and legal rights, to do >> what they like, but don't value the hobbyist market enough to try to >> help. >> >> > -- > Like all large US corporations they are dollar driven Any business that is not dollar driven will soon be out of business. Making money is what businesses do. Sadly, that seems to be another idea that has fallen by the wayside in the US, like trust and risk. bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Mar 10 08:48:55 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 09:48:55 -0400 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <1c1301d5f6a5$849d0f60$8dd72e20$@gmail.com> References: <9CCE9B978F7C964097645E1FC2BC99DD20C318@mail.wiz.local> <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> <21c6de50-c671-20c3-725d-aaa11347020e@btinternet.com> <1c1301d5f6a5$849d0f60$8dd72e20$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 3/10/20 2:31 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk On Behalf Of Rod Smallwood >> via cctalk >> Sent: 10 March 2020 04:14 >> To: Fred Cisin via cctalk >> Subject: Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing >> >> On 10/03/2020 02:19, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> >>> On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: >>>> So. >>>> At the end of the day there are three paths. >>>> 1. Accept that HP doesn't give two hoots about hobbyists and patch >>>> the abandoned operating system to fix the problem. >>>> 2. Declare that we need to develop an open replacement. >>>> Or >>>> 3. Accept that HP actually owns the rights to our VAX 11/785 >>>> machines and arrange for them to be dropped off at their corporate >>>> headquarters because they can't do anything without software. >>>> Sigh... >>> >>> 4. Contemplate what would happen if dropped off from a considerable >>> altitude, . . . >>> >>> It is discouraging that they have the power, and legal rights, to do >>> what they like, but don't value the hobbyist market enough to try to >>> help. >>> >>> >> -- >> Like all large US corporations they are dollar driven >> > > I noticed that. I wonder how they would feel if I were to take my VAX to MakeFests with a notice on saying how much they want for a licence to actually load software and demo an antique machine.... They would not care and it would have no effect on their bottom line so why should they? bill From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Tue Mar 10 09:34:24 2020 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 09:34:24 -0500 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <9CCE9B978F7C964097645E1FC2BC99DD20C318@mail.wiz.local> <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> <21c6de50-c671-20c3-725d-aaa11347020e@btinternet.com> <1c1301d5f6a5$849d0f60$8dd72e20$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 3/10/2020 8:48 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 3/10/20 2:31 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk On Behalf Of Rod Smallwood >>> via cctalk >>> Sent: 10 March 2020 04:14 >>> To: Fred Cisin via cctalk >>> Subject: Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing >>> >>> On 10/03/2020 02:19, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> >>>> On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: >>>>> So. >>>>> At the end of the day there are three paths. >>>>> 1.? Accept that HP doesn't give two hoots about hobbyists and patch >>>>> the abandoned operating system to fix the problem. >>>>> 2. Declare that we need to develop an open replacement. >>>>> Or >>>>> 3.? Accept that HP actually owns the rights to our VAX 11/785 >>>>> machines and arrange for them to be dropped off at their corporate >>>>> headquarters because they can't do anything without software. >>>>> Sigh... >>>> >>>> 4. Contemplate what would happen if dropped off from a considerable >>>> altitude, . . . >>>> >>>> It is discouraging that they have the power, and legal rights, to do >>>> what they like, but don't value the hobbyist market enough to try to >>>> help. >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> Like all large US corporations they are dollar driven >>> >> >> I noticed that. I wonder how they would feel if I were to take my VAX to MakeFests with a notice on saying how much they want for a licence to actually load software and demo an antique machine.... > > They would not care and it would have no effect on their bottom > line so why should they? > > bill > > It would be bad PR.? But it's still unlikely they would care as the people who attend Makerfests aren't usually the ones that sign the contracts. -- John H. Reinhardt From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Mar 10 10:06:57 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 09:06:57 -0600 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <20200310094850.GA30101@mooli.org.uk> References: <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> <20200310094850.GA30101@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 3:48 AM Peter Corlett via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote > > 2. Declare that we need to develop an open replacement. > > There is FreeVMS, but there also doesn't seem to have been any progress on > it > in the last decade and its domain has been lost and taken over by a > squatter. > > Writing an operating system is *hard*, way beyond a weekend's hacking > which is > how most open source projects get going. Cloning an existing one is > doubly-so > because it has to be bug-compatible. > > Linux has taken thirty years to get this far. It's arguable what is > "major" but > to a rough approximation, there are no good open source clones of other > operating systems of similar complexity: I'm aware of FreeDOS, AROS, > EmuTOS and > a few others, but they're relatively simple. > Linux never was a thing on the VAX that was very good. It was too late in its life cycle to get enough love. Linux and/or NetBSD/vax would be a good choice, though, to implement the VAX's system calls and execute it's binaries. Though there were more concerted efforts to do this years ago, but I don't know what became of them. Google shows a smattering of efforts littered with broken links. :( Warner From albiorix at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 10:23:27 2020 From: albiorix at gmail.com (Neil Thompson) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 17:23:27 +0200 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> <20200310094850.GA30101@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: I'm a genuine hobbyist - I've been trying to keep examples of every os/system I've ever worked with to play with now that I've retired (either hardware or emulation based). My VAX equipment turned to carbonised scrap due to lightning a while ago and I'm now emulation based and have been using the Hobbyist licence, but it looks as though it's just becoming too much hassle to do it any more. So I'm dropping the whole thing - sad, but I don't have time for nonsense any more. On the upside, a system I've never worked on has ramped up greatly - I'm having a lot of fun with Multics and the dps8m emulator/simulator. HPE - have a look at the way Honeywell handled their legacy stuff and take a lesson. On Tue, 10 Mar 2020 at 17:07, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 3:48 AM Peter Corlett via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote > > > > 2. Declare that we need to develop an open replacement. > > > > There is FreeVMS, but there also doesn't seem to have been any progress > on > > it > > in the last decade and its domain has been lost and taken over by a > > squatter. > > > > Writing an operating system is *hard*, way beyond a weekend's hacking > > which is > > how most open source projects get going. Cloning an existing one is > > doubly-so > > because it has to be bug-compatible. > > > > Linux has taken thirty years to get this far. It's arguable what is > > "major" but > > to a rough approximation, there are no good open source clones of other > > operating systems of similar complexity: I'm aware of FreeDOS, AROS, > > EmuTOS and > > a few others, but they're relatively simple. > > > > Linux never was a thing on the VAX that was very good. It was too late in > its life cycle to get enough love. > > Linux and/or NetBSD/vax would be a good choice, though, to implement the > VAX's system calls and execute it's binaries. Though there were more > concerted efforts to do this years ago, but I don't know what became of > them. Google shows a smattering of efforts littered with broken links. :( > > Warner > From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Mar 10 10:41:12 2020 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 08:41:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> <20200310094850.GA30101@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Neil Thompson via cctalk wrote: > I'm a genuine hobbyist - I've been trying to keep examples of every > os/system I've ever worked with to play with now that I've retired (either > hardware or emulation based). My VAX equipment turned to carbonised scrap > due to lightning a while ago and I'm now emulation based and have been > using the Hobbyist licence, but it looks as though it's just becoming too > much hassle to do it any more. So I'm dropping the whole thing - sad, but > I don't have time for nonsense any more. > Google "pakgen.c" and continue to enjoy your retirement. ;) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Tue Mar 10 10:44:32 2020 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 16:44:32 +0100 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> <20200310094850.GA30101@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <20200310154431.6m3aft2vftuu7htw@lug-owl.de> On Tue, 2020-03-10 09:06:57 -0600, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 3:48 AM Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote > > Linux has taken thirty years to get this far. It's arguable what > > is "major" but to a rough approximation, there are no good open > > source clones of other operating systems of similar complexity: > > I'm aware of FreeDOS, AROS, EmuTOS and a few others, but they're > > relatively simple. > > Linux never was a thing on the VAX that was very good. It was too late in > its life cycle to get enough love. I quite apologize for that! > Linux and/or NetBSD/vax would be a good choice, though, to implement the > VAX's system calls and execute it's binaries. Though there were more > concerted efforts to do this years ago, but I don't know what became of > them. Google shows a smattering of efforts littered with broken links. :( There was a vax-linux port started by others, and I cared for it for a good number of years. My life changed a lot since then, I quite failed (and failed hard!) to bring up the needed time to care for Linux, care for GCC and Binutils, GNU libc and all those programs silently expecting IEEE floating point support. I still have a good number of VAXen around, though all powered off and in good storage. We're actually searching for a larger room to put all the old iron in there, get them on cables (power, network and serial) and eventually even restart on hacking them. Hacking VAXen was a great thing do to! ...at least for me. I learned so much from doing so, about Linux, libc, their interface, about Binutils and GCC. It really made me "fit" for paid business. But lets face it: I'm in the fourties, have a family and a day still does only have 24 hours. So... Once getting all my hardware into usable condition is settled, I'd be quite willing to hand out serial and power access to them, for whatever you'd like to do. (If it's not already too late.) MfG, JBG -- From js at cimmeri.com Tue Mar 10 10:50:43 2020 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 10:50:43 -0500 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <9CCE9B978F7C964097645E1FC2BC99DD20C318@mail.wiz.local> <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> <21c6de50-c671-20c3-725d-aaa11347020e@btinternet.com> <1c1301d5f6a5$849d0f60$8dd72e20$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5E67B753.2080005@cimmeri.com> On 3/10/2020 8:48 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 3/10/20 2:31 AM, Dave Wade via > cctalk wrote: >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk >>> On >>> Behalf Of Rod Smallwood >>> via cctalk >>> Sent: 10 March 2020 04:14 >>> To: Fred Cisin via cctalk >>> >>> Subject: Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist >>> license program is closing >>> >>> >>> Like all large US corporations they >>> are dollar driven >>> >> >> I noticed that. I wonder how they >> would feel if I were to take my VAX >> to MakeFests with a notice on saying >> how much they want for a licence to >> actually load software and demo an >> antique machine.... > > They would not care and it would have > no effect on their bottom > line so why should they? > > bill One reason could be, that it makes for good advertising and good sentiment. Many corps sponsor just for these reasons. - J. From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Mar 10 11:01:35 2020 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 09:01:35 -0700 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <20200310154431.6m3aft2vftuu7htw@lug-owl.de> References: <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> <20200310094850.GA30101@mooli.org.uk> <20200310154431.6m3aft2vftuu7htw@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <99fa7e1d255260b3bf9aa22d9464e8f3ed5b7249.camel@shiresoft.com> Am I forgetting, but isn't BSD (4.3/4.4 as I recall) on the VAX? That seems more suitable for running on classic hardware than moving to something newer. Of course I got rid of all of my 11/780 and 11/785 systems (along with a smattering of VAXStations) years ago so I don't have any particular interest here. ;-) TTFN - Guy On Tue, 2020-03-10 at 16:44 +0100, Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 2020-03-10 09:06:57 -0600, Warner Losh via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 3:48 AM Peter Corlett via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote > > > Linux has taken thirty years to get this far. It's arguable what > > > is "major" but to a rough approximation, there are no good open > > > source clones of other operating systems of similar complexity: > > > I'm aware of FreeDOS, AROS, EmuTOS and a few others, but they're > > > relatively simple. > > > > Linux never was a thing on the VAX that was very good. It was too > > late in > > its life cycle to get enough love. > > I quite apologize for that! > > > Linux and/or NetBSD/vax would be a good choice, though, to > > implement the > > VAX's system calls and execute it's binaries. Though there were > > more > > concerted efforts to do this years ago, but I don't know what > > became of > > them. Google shows a smattering of efforts littered with broken > > links. :( > > There was a vax-linux port started by others, and I cared for it for > a > good number of years. My life changed a lot since then, I quite > failed > (and failed hard!) to bring up the needed time to care for Linux, > care > for GCC and Binutils, GNU libc and all those programs silently > expecting IEEE floating point support. > > I still have a good number of VAXen around, though all powered off > and in good storage. We're actually searching for a larger room to > put > all the old iron in there, get them on cables (power, network and > serial) and eventually even restart on hacking them. > > Hacking VAXen was a great thing do to! ...at least for me. I > learned > so much from doing so, about Linux, libc, their interface, about > Binutils and GCC. It really made me "fit" for paid business. But lets > face it: I'm in the fourties, have a family and a day still does only > have 24 hours. > > So... Once getting all my hardware into usable condition is > settled, > I'd be quite willing to hand out serial and power access to them, for > whatever you'd like to do. (If it's not already too late.) > > MfG, JBG > From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Mar 10 11:08:15 2020 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 17:08:15 +0100 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <99fa7e1d255260b3bf9aa22d9464e8f3ed5b7249.camel@shiresoft.com> References: <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> <20200310094850.GA30101@mooli.org.uk> <20200310154431.6m3aft2vftuu7htw@lug-owl.de> <99fa7e1d255260b3bf9aa22d9464e8f3ed5b7249.camel@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <20200310160815.GC28328@beast.freibergnet.de> 4.3 BSD Quasijarus by M.Sokolov should be the last OS for VAXen, I had it run on a MVII with UC08, a Tandberg SLR5 and some SCSI disk. Should be still on the disk, have a copy on my webserver (www.tiffe.de/Robotron) and there is a github repository somewhere available. Regards, Holm Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > Am I forgetting, but isn't BSD (4.3/4.4 as I recall) on the VAX? That > seems more suitable for running on classic hardware than moving to > something newer. > > Of course I got rid of all of my 11/780 and 11/785 systems (along with > a smattering of VAXStations) years ago so I don't have any particular > interest here. ;-) > > TTFN - Guy [..] -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Mar 10 11:31:01 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 09:31:01 -0700 Subject: ISO National Instruments MPW DSP tools Message-ID: <73aa3ca4-43d0-a580-3fbd-a879afac172a@bitsavers.org> One shot in the dark if anyone has the DSP development or interface toolkit for NI's TMS320C30 Nubus cards. I have a bunch of boards but never found any software to use with them. This is probably LabView 2 or 3 timeframe. I see NI, who is normally pretty good with keeping manuals around doesn't even have them online any more for boards like the DSP2300 From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Mar 10 12:07:29 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 10:07:29 -0700 Subject: Looking for Extended Industry Standard Architecture Revision 3.10 Specification In-Reply-To: <04de01d5e95c$c09ac850$41d058f0$@net> References: <04de01d5e95c$c09ac850$41d058f0$@net> Message-ID: I was forwarded a scan of chapter 4 It is now on line under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/bcprServices On 2/22/20 12:47 AM, Ali via cctalk wrote: > Hello, > > Does anyone have the "Extended Industry Standard Architecture Revision 3.10" > specification either in printed/book form that they are willing to separate > from or in some sort of electronic format ala PDF? I am mostly interested in > the sections on the syntax for EISA CFG files. TIA! > > -Ali > From rtomek at ceti.pl Tue Mar 10 13:17:55 2020 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 19:17:55 +0100 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> <21c6de50-c671-20c3-725d-aaa11347020e@btinternet.com> <1c1301d5f6a5$849d0f60$8dd72e20$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20200310181755.GA22727@tau1.ceti.pl> On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 09:48:55AM -0400, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: [...] > They would not care and it would have no effect on their bottom > line so why should they? I think it actually affects their bottom line, just in a way that would not make anybody fired, and this is why nobody would care. There is no way a CEO would say to his subCEO "you have neglected our supporters in hobbyist groups, I fire you". This would sound like a line from this Star Wars parody, Spaceballs. This is something Dark Helmet would have said as a president of Helmet PE (I have no idea what "PE" could stand for). I really liked the idea of running VMS on simh (and learning some more skills), even if I had to register online. But when I looked, it seemed I would have to make Polish users group first, became its only member and president (hehe) and only then register... Holy Schwartz, they tried to drag me on the dark side, but I resisted. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From ethan at 757.org Tue Mar 10 14:38:22 2020 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 15:38:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> <20200310094850.GA30101@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: Since HP is killing the Hobbyist program, you all should make a Hobbyist license key generator. That solves the issue forever. - Ethan From rar at syssrc.com Tue Mar 10 12:05:41 2020 From: rar at syssrc.com (rar) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 17:05:41 +0000 Subject: [EXTERNAL] IMSAI PCS 80 30 ROM (original) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bill - I don't have an IMSAI PCS 80. But perhaps you would find something close in either a VDP-40 (never turned it on, 5.25" floppies) or a VDP-80. My VDP-80 got smashed in transit, but the ROMS could still be gone. Let me know if you want be to dig around Bob Roswell broswell at syssrc.com 410-771-5544 ext 4336 https://museum.syssrc.com -----Original Message----- From: cctech On Behalf Of Bill Degnan via cctech Sent: Monday, March 09, 2020 8:31 PM To: cctech Subject: [EXTERNAL] IMSAI PCS 80 30 ROM (original) Hi - I am looking for an IMSAI PCS 80-30 ROM image made for with the Tarbell 1011 controller and Persci 277..anyone have this? I received a system and drive but I think the ROM was replaced and since then I was told the system would no longer boot. In the meantime I am going to find a drive and controller that is compatible. Or, ug, have to try to edit the ROM I have (version 1.1) to operate with this hardware. I would not having a copy of ROM 1.0 at least to start from scratch with. Thanks Bill Degnan From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Mar 10 15:17:58 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 16:17:58 -0400 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> <20200310094850.GA30101@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <9CBDAE91-1A60-4AAD-AE9D-164D81A858A7@comcast.net> > On Mar 10, 2020, at 3:38 PM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: > > > Since HP is killing the Hobbyist program, you all should make a Hobbyist license key generator. > > That solves the issue forever. The difficulty is that people are looking for a solution that is legal. paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 10 17:35:52 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 15:35:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <9CCE9B978F7C964097645E1FC2BC99DD20C318@mail.wiz.local> <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: > On 3/9/20 10:19 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: >>> So. >>> At the end of the day there are three paths. >>> 1.? Accept that HP doesn't give two hoots about hobbyists and patch the >>> abandoned operating system to fix the problem. >>> 2. Declare that we need to develop an open replacement. >>> Or >>> 3.? Accept that HP actually owns the rights to our VAX 11/785 machines >>> and >>> arrange for them to be dropped off at their corporate headquarters because >>> they can't do anything without software. >>> Sigh... >> 4. Contemplate what would happen if dropped off from a considerable >> altitude, . . . >> It is discouraging that they have the power, and legal rights, to do what >> they like, On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > With their own property Exactly. Their ownership of the IP gives them the power and legal rights to do what they like. >> but don't value the hobbyist market enough to try to help. > > Which costs them money with very likely no ROI. Some such companies spend money on advertising. A well run hobbyist program is good advertising. It promotes brand loyalty and good PR. If done right, the cost can be negligible and break even: A two layer license, with a VERY expensive "full support" that breaks even. A cheap hobbyist license, without any corporate support "If you want support and questions answered, upgrade to 'full support'". Charges sufficient to cover direct and indirect costs. Happy hobbyists sometimes have some influence on corporate choices in their day jobs. > What a way to run a business. :-) Is a hobbyist program less effective as advertising than unrelated charity and "image" ads to brag about it? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Mar 10 18:41:33 2020 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 00:41:33 +0100 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <9CBDAE91-1A60-4AAD-AE9D-164D81A858A7@comcast.net> References: <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> <20200310094850.GA30101@mooli.org.uk> <9CBDAE91-1A60-4AAD-AE9D-164D81A858A7@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20200310234133.GD37796@beast.freibergnet.de> Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > On Mar 10, 2020, at 3:38 PM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > Since HP is killing the Hobbyist program, you all should make a Hobbyist license key generator. > > > > That solves the issue forever. > > The difficulty is that people are looking for a solution that is legal. > > paul > What's legal? Wasn't there that thing in the past with SARS, where the US Government was threatening to break the BAYER Patent of an Medicament, if BAYER wouldn't sell that cheaply to americans? (or something like this?) What about the International Court of Justice? What about Mohammad Mossadegh? What about Maduro in Venezuela? Please define what "legal" means to you. BTW: There is no need to make an "Hobbyist license key generator", that thing already exists (as can be read in that thread here) and is available in source code. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From pat at vax11.net Tue Mar 10 18:42:05 2020 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 19:42:05 -0400 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <9CCE9B978F7C964097645E1FC2BC99DD20C318@mail.wiz.local> <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 18:36 Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > > On 3/9/20 10:19 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> but don't value the hobbyist market enough to try to help. > > > > Which costs them money with very likely no ROI. > > Some such companies spend money on advertising. A well run hobbyist > program is good advertising. It promotes brand loyalty and good PR. > Based on my day to day interactions with HPE as a company, this action doesn't surprise me at all. They don't seem to want to do anything that isn't directly "extracting value." Pat > From doug at doughq.com Tue Mar 10 18:46:49 2020 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 10:46:49 +1100 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <9CCE9B978F7C964097645E1FC2BC99DD20C318@mail.wiz.local> <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: Having worked for them in also not surprised. When they absorbed Compaq their culture changed. Significantly for the worse. I'd be stunned if they existed in a form other that selling printers and ink cartridges in 5 years time. On Wed, 11 Mar. 2020, 10:42 am Patrick Finnegan via cctalk, < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 18:36 Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > > > > > > On 3/9/20 10:19 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > >> but don't value the hobbyist market enough to try to help. > > > > > > Which costs them money with very likely no ROI. > > > > Some such companies spend money on advertising. A well run hobbyist > > program is good advertising. It promotes brand loyalty and good PR. > > > > Based on my day to day interactions with HPE as a company, this action > doesn't surprise me at all. They don't seem to want to do anything that > isn't directly "extracting value." > > Pat > > > > From linimon at lonesome.com Tue Mar 10 19:55:19 2020 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 00:55:19 +0000 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <20200310234133.GD37796@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> <20200310094850.GA30101@mooli.org.uk> <9CBDAE91-1A60-4AAD-AE9D-164D81A858A7@comcast.net> <20200310234133.GD37796@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20200311005516.GA32677@lonesome.com> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 12:41:33AM +0100, Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote: > What about the International Court of Justice? Hi, can we please not go down this route on this list? I'm drowning in such things on social media as it is. I like to hang out on this last as a refuge from all that. Thanks. mcl From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Tue Mar 10 19:59:49 2020 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 19:59:49 -0500 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <20200310181755.GA22727@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> <21c6de50-c671-20c3-725d-aaa11347020e@btinternet.com> <1c1301d5f6a5$849d0f60$8dd72e20$@gmail.com> <20200310181755.GA22727@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <605996d4-3f99-8640-f40a-b0dce67a6641@thereinhardts.org> On 3/10/2020 1:17 PM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > I really liked the idea of running VMS on simh (and learning some more > skills), even if I had to register online. But when I looked, it > seemed I would have to make Polish users group first, became its only > member and president (hehe) and only then register... Holy Schwartz, > they tried to drag me on the dark side, but I resisted. > Nope. All you have to do is go to eisner.decuserve.org and register (follow my earlier instructions).? They don't care what country you are from. All are welcome.? Do it now and get your OpenVMS Hobbyist license(s) that will last until the end of 2021 at least. -- John H. Reinhardt From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Tue Mar 10 20:02:33 2020 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 20:02:33 -0500 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <9CCE9B978F7C964097645E1FC2BC99DD20C318@mail.wiz.local> <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <68fc110c-3cc3-de3f-3fa9-54da5d5668c9@thereinhardts.org> On 3/10/2020 6:46 PM, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: > Having worked for them in also not surprised. > > When they absorbed Compaq their culture changed. Significantly for the > worse. > > I'd be stunned if they existed in a form other that selling printers and > ink cartridges in 5 years time. > They can't, they have no printers or ink to sell.? They already broke the company up into HP - printers, ink and PC's and HPE - Servers, etc (including OpenVMS until it was sold or licensed to VSI). -- John H. Reinhardt From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Mar 10 20:07:26 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 18:07:26 -0700 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <9CCE9B978F7C964097645E1FC2BC99DD20C318@mail.wiz.local> <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: > On Mar 10, 2020, at 4:46 PM, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: > > I'd be stunned if they existed in a form other that selling printers and > ink cartridges in 5 years time. HP sells printers, HPE owns the rights to VMS. These days they?re two different companies. Zane From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Mar 10 20:24:42 2020 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 01:24:42 +0000 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <68fc110c-3cc3-de3f-3fa9-54da5d5668c9@thereinhardts.org> References: <9CCE9B978F7C964097645E1FC2BC99DD20C318@mail.wiz.local> <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> <68fc110c-3cc3-de3f-3fa9-54da5d5668c9@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: On 11/03/2020 01:02, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: > On 3/10/2020 6:46 PM, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: >> Having worked for them in also not surprised. >> >> When they absorbed Compaq their culture changed.? Significantly for the >> worse. >> >> I'd be stunned if they existed in a form other that selling printers and >> ink cartridges in 5 years time. >> > They can't, they have no printers or ink to sell.? They already broke > the company up into HP - printers, ink and PC's and HPE - Servers, etc > (including OpenVMS until it was sold or licensed to VSI). > Then it is to VSI we must turn our attention. An email from every VMS hobbyist might wake them up. -- From chrise at pobox.com Tue Mar 10 21:26:45 2020 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 21:26:45 -0500 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <68fc110c-3cc3-de3f-3fa9-54da5d5668c9@thereinhardts.org> References: <68fc110c-3cc3-de3f-3fa9-54da5d5668c9@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: <1DF34807-A51A-4300-8C6B-0DD19AAD13E3@pobox.com> And if they went that way, it would be quite a big event in the supercomputing world because HPE now own both of the companies formerly known as SGI and Cray. Someone on the inside is attempting to explore why this is happening. If I hear anything, I will report back. If something positive were to occur, IRIX might be able to be saved too. Chris -- Chris Elmquist > On Mar 10, 2020, at 8:03 PM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: > > ?On 3/10/2020 6:46 PM, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: >> Having worked for them in also not surprised. >> >> When they absorbed Compaq their culture changed. Significantly for the >> worse. >> >> I'd be stunned if they existed in a form other that selling printers and >> ink cartridges in 5 years time. >> > They can't, they have no printers or ink to sell. They already broke the company up into HP - printers, ink and PC's and HPE - Servers, etc (including OpenVMS until it was sold or licensed to VSI). > > -- > John H. Reinhardt > From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 21:32:33 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 22:32:33 -0400 Subject: 1st Annual Kennett Classic October 16-18 2020 - Mark your Calendars Message-ID: Hey all - We have had soft-launched it on our website calendar a few months ago but I wanted to confirm that yes on October 16 - 18 2020 the first annual "Kennett Classic" weekend is scheduled and a GO; venue booked and implementation is under way. The centerpiece of the weekend will be a contest between teams of vintage computer hobbyists competing for the Kennett Classic Cup, an award to the team with the best network of vintage hardware based on up-time and connectivity. There will be a substantial prize awarded to the winning team. We're really excited to share the details of this event, but stand by for now. In addition to the on-site teams, we will open the contest to any qualifying team worldwide. This is a first-of-its-kind world-wide vintage computing networking event! We're working on the registration pages now, and once they're live we'll share all of the details. Think of the Kennett Classic Cup as a car rally for vintage computers. We have many other activities planned for that weekend, stay tuned. Interested? We look forward to making this a huge success. Bill Degnan Kennett Classic Kennett Square, PA https://www.kennettclassic.com From rtomek at ceti.pl Wed Mar 11 00:04:27 2020 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 06:04:27 +0100 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <605996d4-3f99-8640-f40a-b0dce67a6641@thereinhardts.org> References: <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> <21c6de50-c671-20c3-725d-aaa11347020e@btinternet.com> <1c1301d5f6a5$849d0f60$8dd72e20$@gmail.com> <20200310181755.GA22727@tau1.ceti.pl> <605996d4-3f99-8640-f40a-b0dce67a6641@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: <20200311050426.GB22727@tau1.ceti.pl> On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 07:59:49PM -0500, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: [...] > > > Nope. All you have to do is go to eisner.decuserve.org and register > (follow my earlier instructions).? They don't care what country you > are from. All are welcome.? Do it now and get your OpenVMS Hobbyist > license(s) that will last until the end of 2021 at least. Yay! Thanks for explanation. I will try this route, I just need to sort something out (economy slows etc, or maybe spasms). But if this is so, I would like to have that thing, and at least once write 'help'. Or 'show proc' (if memory serves). -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 04:04:35 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 09:04:35 -0000 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <9CCE9B978F7C964097645E1FC2BC99DD20C318@mail.wiz.local> <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> <21c6de50-c671-20c3-725d-aaa11347020e@btinternet.com> <1c1301d5f6a5$849d0f60$8dd72e20$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0ca301d5f784$19b0ab50$4d1201f0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of John H. > Reinhardt via cctalk > Sent: 10 March 2020 14:34 > To: Bill Gunshannon ; General Discussion: > On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing > > On 3/10/2020 8:48 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On 3/10/20 2:31 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > >> > >> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: cctalk On Behalf Of Rod > >>> Smallwood via cctalk > >>> Sent: 10 March 2020 04:14 > >>> To: Fred Cisin via cctalk > >>> Subject: Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing > >>> > >>> On 10/03/2020 02:19, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >>> > >>>> On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: > >>>>> So. > >>>>> At the end of the day there are three paths. > >>>>> 1. Accept that HP doesn't give two hoots about hobbyists and > >>>>> patch the abandoned operating system to fix the problem. > >>>>> 2. Declare that we need to develop an open replacement. > >>>>> Or > >>>>> 3. Accept that HP actually owns the rights to our VAX 11/785 > >>>>> machines and arrange for them to be dropped off at their corporate > >>>>> headquarters because they can't do anything without software. > >>>>> Sigh... > >>>> > >>>> 4. Contemplate what would happen if dropped off from a considerable > >>>> altitude, . . . > >>>> > >>>> It is discouraging that they have the power, and legal rights, to > >>>> do what they like, but don't value the hobbyist market enough to > >>>> try to help. > >>>> > >>>> > >>> -- > >>> Like all large US corporations they are dollar driven > >>> > >> > >> I noticed that. I wonder how they would feel if I were to take my VAX to > MakeFests with a notice on saying how much they want for a licence to > actually load software and demo an antique machine.... > > > > They would not care and it would have no effect on their bottom line > > so why should they? > > > > bill > > > > > It would be bad PR. But it's still unlikely they would care as the people who > attend Makerfests aren't usually the ones that sign the contracts. > You might be surprised..... > -- > John H. Reinhardt From dave at 661.org Wed Mar 11 04:40:58 2020 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 09:40:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Make behavior on TOPS20 Panda distribution Message-ID: I've successfully managed to get a simulated TOPS20 environment going with networking. Now there's a new strange hitch: the behavior of make. Would someone please look at this and tell me what I'm doing wrong? For a simple Makefile, it works fine if I just type "make", but if I type "make ", I get the commands sent to the command line, but no responses. The display then stalls at the eighth source file. Strangely, if I scroll up in the xterm, it gets dragged back down as if more stuff is being printed. Just typing "make", I get this: @make cc -c buffer.c -o buffer.rel PANDA TOPS-20 Command processor 7.1(4453)-4 @cc -c buffer.c -o buffer.rel KCC: BUFFER BUFFER.PRE.3 BUFFER.FAI.3 FAIL: BUFFER @ @POP ... and so on until this: @POP cc -o dfrotz.exe buffer.rel err.rel fastme.rel files.rel getopt.rel ... more .rel files LINK: Loading @ @POP @ and we're done. dfrotz.exe is in the current directory and it works. Here's the strange behavior I can't explain: @make dumb cc -c buffer.c -o buffer.rel ?Unrecognized command - Does not match switch or keyword - "dumb" cc -c err.c -o err.rel cc -c fastme.c -o fastme.rel cc -c files.c -o files.rel cc -c getopt.c -o getopt.rel cc -c hotkey.c -o hotkey.rel cc -c input.c -o input.rel cc -c main.c -o main.rel The process stalls at this point, jerking back the terminal to the bottom if I scroll up. Hitting ^C once or repeatedly doesn't seem to do anything. Logging into the from a different terminal, I can see that no .rel files were generated from this operation. Typing "make foobar" results in this: @make foobar ?MAKE: Don't know how to make foobar perror() says: No such file or directory @ Amusingly, "make love" returns this classic reply: @make love Not war! ?MAKE: Don't know how to make love perror() says: No such file or directory @ Here's the Makefile: CC = cc NAME = frotz C = .c O = .rel E = .exe DFROTZ = d$(NAME)$(E) OBJ = buffer$(O) err$(O) fastme$(O) files$(O) getopt$(O) hotkey$(O) \ input$(O) main$(O) math$(O) missin$(O) object$(O) \ proces$(O) quetza$(O) random$(O) redire$(O) screen$(O) \ sound$(O) stream$(O) table$(O) text$(O) variab$(O) \ dblorb$(O) dinit$(O) dinput$(O) doutpu$(O) dpic$(O) dumb: $(DFROTZ) dfrotz: $(DFROTZ) $(DFROTZ): $(OBJ) $(CC) $(CFLAGS) -o $(DFROTZ) $(OBJ) .c.rel: $(CC) $(CFLAGS) -c $< -o $@ clean: delete *.rel delete *.exe .SUFFIXES: .exe .rel .c *.h This whole thing can be found at https://gitlab.com/DavidGriffith/frotz/ in the tops20 branch. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ethan at 757.org Wed Mar 11 09:43:47 2020 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 10:43:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <9CBDAE91-1A60-4AAD-AE9D-164D81A858A7@comcast.net> References: <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> <20200310094850.GA30101@mooli.org.uk> <9CBDAE91-1A60-4AAD-AE9D-164D81A858A7@comcast.net> Message-ID: > The difficulty is that people are looking for a solution that is legal. > paul They don't want hobbyists and computer collectors. They want people that can pay hugs sums of money. Usually these are people spending other people's money. -- : Ethan O'Toole From ethan at 757.org Wed Mar 11 09:46:58 2020 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 10:46:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <1DF34807-A51A-4300-8C6B-0DD19AAD13E3@pobox.com> References: <68fc110c-3cc3-de3f-3fa9-54da5d5668c9@thereinhardts.org> <1DF34807-A51A-4300-8C6B-0DD19AAD13E3@pobox.com> Message-ID: > If something positive were to occur, IRIX might be able to be saved too. > Chris Years ago us SGI hobbyists were able to talk to SGI about this and a huge problem SGI had with any kind of hobbyist license for IRIX or turning it free is it's fully of licensed 3rd party stuff. But maybe now that's it's expired, or all the companies things were licensed from are gone. -- : Ethan O'Toole From chrise at pobox.com Wed Mar 11 10:07:25 2020 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 10:07:25 -0500 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <68fc110c-3cc3-de3f-3fa9-54da5d5668c9@thereinhardts.org> <1DF34807-A51A-4300-8C6B-0DD19AAD13E3@pobox.com> Message-ID: <20200311150725.GA10131@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (03/11/2020 at 10:46AM -0400), Ethan O'Toole wrote: > >If something positive were to occur, IRIX might be able to be saved too. > >Chris > > Years ago us SGI hobbyists were able to talk to SGI about this and a > huge problem SGI had with any kind of hobbyist license for IRIX or > turning it free is it's fully of licensed 3rd party stuff. But maybe > now that's it's expired, or all the companies things were licensed > from are gone. Right. I think the challenge(s) are in this space and whether or not anyone there would have bandwidth or interest in addressing them. No promises but my contact is at a fairly high level within HPE (and formerly SGI) so I am hopeful it will at least get discussed. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 11 10:08:43 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 08:08:43 -0700 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <68fc110c-3cc3-de3f-3fa9-54da5d5668c9@thereinhardts.org> <1DF34807-A51A-4300-8C6B-0DD19AAD13E3@pobox.com> Message-ID: <78fb69d5-9dcf-21ca-7563-bf958afbfd7e@bitsavers.org> > Years ago us SGI hobbyists were able to talk to SGI about this and a huge problem SGI had with any kind of hobbyist > license for IRIX or turning it free is it's fully of licensed 3rd party stuff. But maybe now that's it's expired, or all > the companies things were licensed from are gone. Release of Classic HP3000 died for the same reason from the same company. HP has no motivation to spend time/money to release this. Also, the only way CHM was able to release what we did (HP1000, 68K 9000 and Apollo) was having us release it only for non-commercial research/hobby purposes. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 11 10:10:31 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 08:10:31 -0700 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <20200311150725.GA10131@n0jcf.net> References: <68fc110c-3cc3-de3f-3fa9-54da5d5668c9@thereinhardts.org> <1DF34807-A51A-4300-8C6B-0DD19AAD13E3@pobox.com> <20200311150725.GA10131@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <0a02b1b8-46e9-69c6-7271-897eb4942e08@bitsavers.org> On 3/11/20 8:07 AM, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote: > No promises but my contact is at a fairly high level within HPE (and > formerly SGI) so I am hopeful it will at least get discussed. that's good. that is the only chance you have for getting anything done i'd also suggest using the CHM example of getting releases in the past From drb at msu.edu Wed Mar 11 10:41:22 2020 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 11:41:22 -0400 Subject: Prime 50-Series emulator announcement Message-ID: <20200311154127.668D525A83A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> I'm reposting this announcement from Jim Wilcoxson. De #### Newsgroups: comp.sys.prime Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 08:34:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <0c560b91-35d2-4dcc-b859-a8eb4d22bd17 at googlegroups.com> Subject: Prime emulator source released on GitHub From: Jim Wilcoxson Today, with much help from Dennis Boone, I'm releasing the Prime emulator source code on GitHub for non-commercial use. This is the full version of the emulator running on Linux and supports: - all Prime CPU modes: 16S, 32S, 32R, 64R, 64V, 32I - all Prime models, from the P400 to P6550 - up to 512MB of memory, depending on the Primos rev and CPU - a system console - 128 incoming telnet terminal connections - 8 disk controllers, 8 drives each - support for all 25 disk drives sold by Prime - a tape controller, 4 drives, using the .TAP format - a PNC controller emulating RingNet over TCP/IP - a bypass for Primos system serial number checks - Unix utilities to read/write physical tapes & Magsav tapes Dennis owns the emulator GitHub repo and has also kindly agreed to take over hosting of the public Prime emulators that have been online since 2008. There are 7 public emulators running in a virtual Prime ring, allowing both remote terminal sessions (netlink) and remote disk access via PrimeNet. The Prime emulator on Linux is currently running 45-55 Prime MIPS in 64V mode. A wide range of Prime software is loaded on the public emulators: - ftn screaming fast Prime Fortran 66 compiler, written in assembler - f77 the not-so-screaming but full-featured Fortran '77 - pl1g the PL/I Subset G compiler - pl1 the full PL/I compiler - plp the original Prime systems language (like PL/I) - spl the 2nd generation Prime systems language - cc the C compiler written by Garth Conby of Pacer Software - pascal the Pascal compiler - modula Wirth's successor to Pascal - dbg Prime's source level debugger rivaling modern debuggers - pma the Prime assembler - basicv the Prime BASIC compiler - cobol the original Prime COBOL compiler - cbl the Prime COBOL '74 compiler - emacs the full screen editor still used by many today (me!) - midas the Prime indexed sequential file software This week we are working on releasing Prime disk images for all of the public emulators to make it easy for others to get their own Prime up and running. For the truly adventurous who want to bootstrap their own Prime system, there are links in the emulator readme to Prime tape images at Bitsavers and to a large library of Prime manuals. I learned more about operating systems, compilers, concurrency, and other systems programming topics by reading Prime source code, making changes to Primos, and fiddling with Prime hardware, than I did from all of my college degree work. I loved Prime computers, Prime software, Prime hardware, and the Prime Computer company, and am grateful to all of the former Prime engineers that provided this robust and interesting hardware and software platform. I hope you enjoy it too! https://github.com/prirun Jim From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Mar 11 11:31:30 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 12:31:30 -0400 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <9CCE9B978F7C964097645E1FC2BC99DD20C318@mail.wiz.local> <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> <68fc110c-3cc3-de3f-3fa9-54da5d5668c9@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: On 3/10/20 9:24 PM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: > > On 11/03/2020 01:02, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: >> On 3/10/2020 6:46 PM, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: >>> Having worked for them in also not surprised. >>> >>> When they absorbed Compaq their culture changed.? Significantly for the >>> worse. >>> >>> I'd be stunned if they existed in a form other that selling printers and >>> ink cartridges in 5 years time. >>> >> They can't, they have no printers or ink to sell.? They already broke >> the company up into HP - printers, ink and PC's and HPE - Servers, etc >> (including OpenVMS until it was sold or licensed to VSI). >> > Then it is to VSI we must turn our attention. An email from every VMS > hobbyist might wake them up. > > Or, flooding their business mailboxes might just piss them off. bill From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Mar 11 11:46:23 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 12:46:23 -0400 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <78fb69d5-9dcf-21ca-7563-bf958afbfd7e@bitsavers.org> References: <68fc110c-3cc3-de3f-3fa9-54da5d5668c9@thereinhardts.org> <1DF34807-A51A-4300-8C6B-0DD19AAD13E3@pobox.com> <78fb69d5-9dcf-21ca-7563-bf958afbfd7e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > On Mar 11, 2020, at 11:08 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > >> Years ago us SGI hobbyists were able to talk to SGI about this and a huge problem SGI had with any kind of hobbyist >> license for IRIX or turning it free is it's fully of licensed 3rd party stuff. But maybe now that's it's expired, or all >> the companies things were licensed from are gone. > > Release of Classic HP3000 died for the same reason from the same company. > > HP has no motivation to spend time/money to release this. Also, the only way CHM > was able to release what we did (HP1000, 68K 9000 and Apollo) was having > us release it only for non-commercial research/hobby purposes. It should be noted that HP is not the only company that does this. CDC's successor (BT) did the same with the 6000 series software, and for that matter the owner of PLATO did this as well. Hobby, yes, open source for any purpose, no. A company may close down, but that doesn't mean it is "gone" as far as its property is concerned. Ownership passes to others, perhaps creditors or the like, or the majority shareholder. Who that is may be quite hard to find out, which of course is unfortunate if you're trying to get proper permission to do stuff with that property. Then again, if the current owner is an individual, it may make things easier, once you get past the hurdle of finding that individual. That was the case with PLATO recently. paul From lproven at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 11:57:16 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 17:57:16 +0100 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <68fc110c-3cc3-de3f-3fa9-54da5d5668c9@thereinhardts.org> <1DF34807-A51A-4300-8C6B-0DD19AAD13E3@pobox.com> <78fb69d5-9dcf-21ca-7563-bf958afbfd7e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Mar 2020 at 17:46, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > A company may close down, but that doesn't mean it is "gone" as far as its property is concerned. Ownership passes to others, perhaps creditors or the like, or the majority shareholder. Who that is may be quite hard to find out, which of course is unfortunate if you're trying to get proper permission to do stuff with that property. Indeed so. AIUI this is the case with Symbolics OpenGenera. The company went broke, the domain name sold off, all employees terminated, etc... They don't trade or sell anything. But the new owners will not permit use of copies of the OS on emulators, or any other form of distribution. In the ZX Spectrum world, which is probably beneath the attention of most listmembers but is a thriving and active retrocomputing/hobbyist world and probably one of the single most active areas in the whole hobby, a lot of games' copyrights belong to companies that no longer exist. In a few cases, they have been bought, and vanishingly few are still trading. Rare (now a MICROS~1 subsidiary) evolved from 1980s outfit Ultimate Play The Game. Rainbird was owned by BT. In many cases, original authors of games have been located, and where applicable, if the software publishing company no longer exists, the authors assert that copyright returned to them and they explicitly allow free distribution. But if some vestige of the company survives, owned by another, which in turn is owned by another, which in turn is owned by another -- nobody knows enough about it or will take responsibility to sign off on making the 30-40y old software free. :-( -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Mar 11 12:10:12 2020 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 17:10:12 +0000 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <605996d4-3f99-8640-f40a-b0dce67a6641@thereinhardts.org> References: <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> <21c6de50-c671-20c3-725d-aaa11347020e@btinternet.com> <1c1301d5f6a5$849d0f60$8dd72e20$@gmail.com> <20200310181755.GA22727@tau1.ceti.pl> <605996d4-3f99-8640-f40a-b0dce67a6641@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: <7a14e8ae-f7f9-143f-cf71-668bd9320aec@ntlworld.com> On 11/03/2020 00:59, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: > Nope. All you have to do is go to eisner.decuserve.org and register > (follow my earlier instructions).? They don't care what country you > are from. All are welcome.? Do it now and get your OpenVMS Hobbyist > license(s) that will last until the end of 2021 at least. > I registered two days ago. Can I claim my hobbyist licences now or should I wait two weeks until I end up on some internal system? Thanks Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Mar 11 12:46:57 2020 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 10:46:57 -0700 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <9CCE9B978F7C964097645E1FC2BC99DD20C318@mail.wiz.local> Message-ID: <20200311104657.4f65f508@asrock> To see if HP is still issuing VAX hobby licenses, a few days ago I applied for same directly online. Today I received the following in a similar manner as others have described: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello dear OpenVMS Hobbyist, ? Please see attached for PAKs to use on your VAX or Alpha. The attached file is a DCL command file; to load your PAKs simply execute it ? $ @Hobbyist-USE-FINALVA.txt ? Please read the following special notification. ? ? =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ? Dear HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist, --snip-- The HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses we are issuing in 2020 will be the last set. Subsequently, HPE will not issue new HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses. Attached is the final set of the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses. These final licenses are valid through December 31st, 2021. We hope that this additional validity period will enable users to plan for the future. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I received the above from: OpenVMS Customer Lab . I intend to contact them about a permanent hobbyist license - and as others have said, it would make sense for all of us to do so. May I suggest the following format for that contact: 1. Thank them for the hobbyist program! 2. Explain how it has made you appreciate HP more because of their willingness to offer such a program. 3. State how you have helped spread the word about the goodness of HP because of the program. 4. Express disappointment that the program is ending - and how it will affect your hobby. 5. Ask if HP would be willing to consider offering a permanent hobbyist license. 6. Suggest that there would be no downside to HP and would enhance the goodwill that the program brings to HPE - especially since many hobbyists also work with/for major purchasers of IT equipment. Regards, Lyle -- On Sat, 7 Mar 2020 11:48:20 -0700 (MST) Richard Loken via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, 7 Mar 2020, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: > > > For those interested, HPE has finally, formally announced the end of their > > participation in the OpenVMS Hobbyist Program.? A number of people have > > received the below message from HPE, probably everyone they have on record > > as having current Hobbyist licenses. > > I humbly suggest that HPE might issue VAX hobbyist licenses that don't > expire since they and VSI don't have a significant financial interest in it. > Removing the expiration date does not remove any obligation from the licence > holder and does not remove HPE's rights as the owner of the software. > > Alpha and Itanium licenses are a differant matter, there is still a market > for them and development continuues to some degree. > > I only run an Alpha hobby machine so I have nothing to gain from a lifetime > VAX license. I have both PMDF and Multinet licenses that don't expire and > I paid honest money for them but I doubt I can afford the price of a VMS > license. -- 73 NM6Y Bickley Consulting West Inc. https://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Wed Mar 11 14:10:33 2020 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 14:10:33 -0500 Subject: Prime 50-Series emulator announcement In-Reply-To: <20200311154127.668D525A83A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20200311154127.668D525A83A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20200311191027.GA19961@RawFedDogs.net> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 11:41:22AM -0400, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > I'm reposting this announcement from Jim Wilcoxson. > > Newsgroups: comp.sys.prime > Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 08:34:13 -0700 (PDT) > Subject: Prime emulator source released on GitHub > From: Jim Wilcoxson > > Today, with much help from Dennis Boone, I'm releasing the Prime > emulator source code on GitHub for non-commercial use. This is exciting news. I've been curious about Primes ever since I first heard of the emulator. I took the publicly accessible systems for a spin way back then, but have forgotten what I learned. I was an IBM z/OS operator for a couple of decades. The system operation side is what interests me most. I've been hoping that the emulator and PRIMOS would be released to hobbyists some day. I've downloaded and built the emulator, and grabbed the available tape images and documentation, but I have no idea where to go from there. I'm looking forward to any future information, disk image releases, etc. I've already skimmed through a bit of the operations guide. I might be able to figure out how to install PRIMOS from tapes with the help of the Admin Guide(s). Info on configuring the emulator, creating disk images, etc., would be helpful. I did find emulator command examples in em.c. I anticipate some sleep deprivation in the near future. I've been known to loose track of time exploring new to me older systems. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From drb at msu.edu Wed Mar 11 14:22:31 2020 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 15:22:31 -0400 Subject: Prime documentation Message-ID: <20200311192236.0FA7F25A9BA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> For those interested in playing with Jim's emulator, a few resources: Bitsavers has some doco and bits: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/prime/ http://bitsavers.org/bits/Prime/ I have been assembling what I hope will be the definitive Prime info site. It's not complete, but contains manuals scanned by, among others, AEK and Jim Wilcoxson, as well as material from my Prime-using past, etc. I have more documentation and software to add as I have time. https://sysovl.info/reference_prime.html Of particular use might be this writeup on installing PRIMOS Revs 22 or 23 on the emulator. It's set up for the old demo version of the emulator, so needs a fair amount of updating, but may help get you started. I'll work on it soonish. https://sysovl.info/reference_prime_drb_installing_primos.html De From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Wed Mar 11 14:47:43 2020 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 14:47:43 -0500 Subject: Prime documentation In-Reply-To: <20200311192236.0FA7F25A9BA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20200311192236.0FA7F25A9BA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20200311194743.GA7511@RawFedDogs.net> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 03:22:31PM -0400, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > Of particular use might be this writeup on installing PRIMOS Revs 22 or > 23 on the emulator. It's set up for the old demo version of the > emulator, so needs a fair amount of updating, but may help get you > started. I'll work on it soonish. > > https://sysovl.info/reference_prime_drb_installing_primos.html I got as far as MAKE options prompt. After entering: -disk -part -dt -new -ac -badlev -baud -nin -dbs -nfl -sec something appeared to get stuck in a loop, displaying: Press Enter to continue, h to halt... over and over again. I eventually resorted to killing the emulator. It took a kill -9 to get it to end. In case it gives any clues, after killing it the error.log contained: -nport is zero, PNC not started emulator: device '7 failed initialization - device removed -tport is zero, AMLC devices not started emulator: device '53 failed initialization - device removed emulator: device '54 failed initialization - device removed I did use the file names mentioned as being needed by newer versions of the emulator, disk26u0.160m and mt0. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Wed Mar 11 14:59:04 2020 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B DiGriz) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 15:59:04 -0400 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <78fb69d5-9dcf-21ca-7563-bf958afbfd7e@bitsavers.org> References: <68fc110c-3cc3-de3f-3fa9-54da5d5668c9@thereinhardts.org> <1DF34807-A51A-4300-8C6B-0DD19AAD13E3@pobox.com> <78fb69d5-9dcf-21ca-7563-bf958afbfd7e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20200311155904.7fb83299@dragonsweb.org> On Wed, 11 Mar 2020 08:08:43 -0700 Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > Release of Classic HP3000 died for the same reason from the same > company. > After HP bought TI's DSG lines, TI SysV was eventually turned over to a 3rd party, who has so far been unresponsive to my inquiries about possible hobbyist licensing, either binary or source. Evidently S1500's may still in use somewhere, unless I'm just the wrong person asking, or the maintainer simply no longer has the time, having moved on to newer platforms. In which case, why not a FOSS release? I understand it's his baby, but still... Oh, well, I guess there's always the Linux port I was working on off and on. Hate to have to reinvent the DNIO stuff when I don't even have the binaries, but there you go. jbdigriz From drb at msu.edu Wed Mar 11 15:01:30 2020 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:01:30 -0400 Subject: Prime documentation In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 11 Mar 2020 14:47:43 -0500.) <20200311194743.GA7511@RawFedDogs.net> References: <20200311194743.GA7511@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311192236.0FA7F25A9BA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20200311200130.8529325AA0A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > something appeared to get stuck in a loop, displaying: > Press Enter to continue, h to halt... > over and over again. I eventually resorted to killing the emulator. > It took a kill -9 to get it to end. In case it gives any clues, > after killing it the error.log contained: I've seen this behavior a few times, but didn't get it tracked down. If the disk container file is non-zero size, the make may have worked. Otherwise, check the top of console.log, before the spin starts, and see if there's anything diagnostic there. > -nport is zero, PNC not started > emulator: device '7 failed initialization - device removed > -tport is zero, AMLC devices not started > emulator: device '53 failed initialization - device removed > emulator: device '54 failed initialization - device removed This is all normal. Once you get a system built, you may want to turn on serial terminal ports (i.e. telnet sessions) by using the -tport option. De From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Wed Mar 11 15:10:04 2020 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 15:10:04 -0500 Subject: Prime documentation In-Reply-To: <20200311200130.8529325AA0A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20200311194743.GA7511@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311192236.0FA7F25A9BA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200311200130.8529325AA0A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20200311201004.GA13162@RawFedDogs.net> Dennis, On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 04:01:30PM -0400, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > If the disk container file is non-zero size, the make may have worked. The disk container file size is zero. > Otherwise, check the top of console.log, before the spin starts, and see > if there's anything diagnostic there. There is nothing in the console log after the make options entry: [CPBOOT Rev. 19.0 Copyright (c) 1990, Prime Computer, Inc.] [BOOT Rev. 23.4 Copyright (c) 1993, Computervision Corp.] RUN FILE TREENAME=make.save BOOTING FROM MT0 make.save **** MAKE **** Copyright (c) 1991, Prime Computer, Inc. Enter command line options: -disk -part -dt -new -ac -badlev -baud -nin -dbs -nfl -sec -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From drb at msu.edu Wed Mar 11 15:32:00 2020 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:32:00 -0400 Subject: Prime documentation In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 11 Mar 2020 15:10:04 -0500.) <20200311201004.GA13162@RawFedDogs.net> References: <20200311201004.GA13162@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311194743.GA7511@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311192236.0FA7F25A9BA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200311200130.8529325AA0A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20200311203200.B367B25AA24@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > [CPBOOT Rev. 19.0 Copyright (c) 1990, Prime Computer, Inc.]=20=20 > [BOOT Rev. 23.4 Copyright (c) 1993, Computervision Corp.] > RUN FILE TREENAME=3Dmake.save > BOOTING FROM MT0 make.save > **** MAKE **** Copyright (c) 1991, Prime Computer, Inc. > Enter command line options: -disk -part -dt -new -ac -badlev -baud -nin -db= > s -nfl -sec Try this instead: $ em -boot 10005 [Prime Emulator ver 5350ae7 Feb 17 2020] [Copyright (C) 2005-2012 Prirun LLC prirun at gmail.com] Booting from file mt0 [BOOT Rev. 23.4 Copyright (c) 1993, Computervision Corp.] RUN FILE TREENAME=make.save BOOTING FROM MT0 make.save **** MAKE **** Copyright (c) 1991, Prime Computer, Inc. Enter command line options: -disk -part -dt -ac -badlev -baud Note that I've changed the em command line, and the MAKE options. De From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Wed Mar 11 15:48:38 2020 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 15:48:38 -0500 Subject: Prime documentation In-Reply-To: <20200311203200.B367B25AA24@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20200311201004.GA13162@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311194743.GA7511@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311192236.0FA7F25A9BA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200311200130.8529325AA0A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200311203200.B367B25AA24@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20200311204837.GA29749@RawFedDogs.net> Dennis, On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 04:32:00PM -0400, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > Try this instead: > > $ em -boot 10005 > [Prime Emulator ver 5350ae7 Feb 17 2020] > [Copyright (C) 2005-2012 Prirun LLC prirun at gmail.com] > Booting from file mt0 > [BOOT Rev. 23.4 Copyright (c) 1993, Computervision Corp.] > > RUN FILE TREENAME=make.save > > BOOTING FROM MT0 make.save > > **** MAKE **** Copyright (c) 1991, Prime Computer, Inc. > Enter command line options: -disk -part -dt -ac -badlev -baud > > Note that I've changed the em command line, and the MAKE options. That might have worked. There were some prompt differences in the next section compared to the install guide: **** MAKE **** Copyright (c) 1991, Prime Computer, Inc. Enter command line options: -disk -part -dt -ac -badlev -baud Physical device? 2060 Partition name? cmddev Disk type must be one of the following: SMD 80MB or 300MB removable CMD Cartridge module device 68MB 68 megabyte fixed media 158MB 158 megabyte fixed media 160MB 160 megabyte fixed media 600MB 600 megabyte fixed media MODEL_4475 300 megabyte fixed media MODEL_4714 84 megabyte fixed media MODEL_4711 60 megabyte fixed media MODEL_4715 120 megabyte fixed media MODEL_4735 496 megabyte fixed media MODEL_4719 258 megabyte fixed media MODEL_4845 770 megabyte fixed media MODEL_4721 328 megabyte fixed media MODEL_4860 817 megabyte fixed media MODEL_4729 673 megabyte fixed media MODEL_4730 213 megabyte fixed media Disk type? 160mb Level of bad spot checking? (default = 4) 0 Baud rate? 9600 Which file sectoring scheme would you like? Type "0" (Reverse Sector) or "1" (Forward Sector) > 0 Making 8 head partition CMDDEV Tracks: 821 Sectors per track: 9 Partition is using Reverse Sectoring Partition is in -All_Controller Mode Partition size in decimal records: 58910 Unable to get badspots from device: 002060 Continuing with make. (MAKE) Partition CMDDEV created successfully. After the above I have a 506K disk image file. Are any changes needed to the make options in the following section to create the paging space? Your online guide has: -disk -split -part -dt -new -ac -badlev -nin -nfl -sec -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 11 15:52:21 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 13:52:21 -0700 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <20200311155904.7fb83299@dragonsweb.org> References: <68fc110c-3cc3-de3f-3fa9-54da5d5668c9@thereinhardts.org> <1DF34807-A51A-4300-8C6B-0DD19AAD13E3@pobox.com> <78fb69d5-9dcf-21ca-7563-bf958afbfd7e@bitsavers.org> <20200311155904.7fb83299@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: On 3/11/20 12:59 PM, James B DiGriz wrote: > In which case, why not a FOSS release? Bob Supnik got Unisys to release the sources to BTOS while he was VP of engineering, but we've never been able to find a copy of them. They outsourced support to India, and all traces to what happened to the software have vanished. From drb at msu.edu Wed Mar 11 16:03:01 2020 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 17:03:01 -0400 Subject: Prime documentation In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 11 Mar 2020 15:48:38 -0500.) <20200311204837.GA29749@RawFedDogs.net> References: <20200311204837.GA29749@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311201004.GA13162@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311194743.GA7511@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311192236.0FA7F25A9BA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200311200130.8529325AA0A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200311203200.B367B25AA24@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20200311210301.5116925AA5C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > That might have worked. There were some prompt differences in the next > section compared to the install guide: > Partition CMDDEV created successfully. Yup, looks good. Background: there were some changes from rev to rev of the options to MAKE. E.g. some abbreviations changed or appeared. I seem to have stuff in the howto that only works for Rev. 23 or later. > Are any changes needed to the make options in the following section > to create the paging space? Your online guide has: > -disk -split -part -dt -new -ac -badlev -nin -nfl -sec These are the essential ones: -disk -split -part -dt -badlev Some of the others have less-abbreviated forms that would work, but are not critical. Note that at the "Enter command line options:" prompt, you can say "-help" to see the syntax summary. De From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 11 16:24:36 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 14:24:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <68fc110c-3cc3-de3f-3fa9-54da5d5668c9@thereinhardts.org> <1DF34807-A51A-4300-8C6B-0DD19AAD13E3@pobox.com> <78fb69d5-9dcf-21ca-7563-bf958afbfd7e@bitsavers.org> <20200311155904.7fb83299@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Mar 2020, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Bob Supnik got Unisys to release the sources to BTOS while he was > VP of engineering, but we've never been able to find a copy of them. > They outsourced support to India, and all traces to what happened to > the software have vanished. So, in addition to many companies being reluctant to release rights to IP, a lot of stuff is just lost without a trace. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Mar 11 16:30:53 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 17:30:53 -0400 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <68fc110c-3cc3-de3f-3fa9-54da5d5668c9@thereinhardts.org> <1DF34807-A51A-4300-8C6B-0DD19AAD13E3@pobox.com> <78fb69d5-9dcf-21ca-7563-bf958afbfd7e@bitsavers.org> <20200311155904.7fb83299@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <17068983-E0DD-4DF9-A89F-55D8D8D6FDD5@comcast.net> > On Mar 11, 2020, at 5:24 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, 11 Mar 2020, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> Bob Supnik got Unisys to release the sources to BTOS while he was >> VP of engineering, but we've never been able to find a copy of them. >> They outsourced support to India, and all traces to what happened to >> the software have vanished. > > So, in addition to many companies being reluctant to release rights to IP, a lot of stuff is just lost without a trace. Sometimes we get lucky. Again, PLATO -- got permission to use it but the owner didn't have a copy. Fortunately, someone else did (an actual still-running production system, on an actual CDC mainframe) and that person was willing to do the work to copy the system in a form we could use. paul From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Mar 11 16:43:43 2020 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 21:43:43 +0000 Subject: Manual photocopies available Message-ID: <970f8113-53fb-c415-f065-b70bfc10f3b2@ntlworld.com> I have paper copies of a few manuals I have no use for. Most of these are single-sided photocopies made by others and sent to me for scanning years ago. These are not originals. Almost all of them appear to be available on bitsavers, but if you have a penchant for paper, this might be your chance. Available by post (for whatever it costs to send them plus the paypal fee) or by arrangement in Reading, UK. MicroVAX Troubleshooting and Diagnostics. EK-O19AE-SG-005 MicroVAX Dual-Host Systems. EK-338AC-DH-003 VAX-11/780 Unibus Adaptor Technical Description. EK-DW780-TD.001 VAX-11/730 Diagnostic System User's Guide. EK-DS780-UG.002 VAX-11/780 Installation Manual. EK-SI780-IN-002 Translation Buffer Cache and SBI Control Technical Description. EK-MM780-TD.001 VAX-11/780 Hardware User's Guide. EK-11780-UG-001 VAX-11/780 Console Interface Board Technical Description. EK-KC780-TD.001 FB780 Floating-Point Accelerator. EK-FP780-TD.001 MS780 Memory System Technical Description. EK-MS780-TD.001 * KA780 Centraler Processor Technical Description. EK-KA780-TD.001 * KA655 CPU System Maintenance. EK-306AA-MG.001 The last two (marked *) do not currently appear to be on bitsavers. They do appear in my index of local files so I'll make them available to Al sometime soon. Send emails off-list please. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Mar 11 17:01:57 2020 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 22:01:57 +0000 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <68fc110c-3cc3-de3f-3fa9-54da5d5668c9@thereinhardts.org> <1DF34807-A51A-4300-8C6B-0DD19AAD13E3@pobox.com> <78fb69d5-9dcf-21ca-7563-bf958afbfd7e@bitsavers.org> <20200311155904.7fb83299@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <3e500c03-33f0-9f42-810b-20fda406fbb0@ntlworld.com> On 11/03/2020 21:24, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 11 Mar 2020, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> Bob Supnik got Unisys to release the sources to BTOS while he was >> VP of engineering, but we've never been able to find a copy of them. >> They outsourced support to India, and all traces to what happened to >> the software have vanished. > > So, in addition to many companies being reluctant to release rights to > IP, a lot of stuff is just lost without a trace. Yup. Parts of the DEC Networking group got sold to Cabletron and then bits transitioned to Riverstone. Later VAX/PSI code made it as far as the US engineering team (who by then were part of EDS iirc). I don't know whether a copy of the DECnis code stayed with DEC - the copy with Riverstone wouldn't have gone any further (there were big layoffs involved so I doubt that anyone was checking that nothing vanished). More or less the same will be true for the Riverstone code. Some of it may have survived the fire sale a few years later but I suspect tracking any of that down might be hard to impossible. The code I wrote at BlueARC is still going at Hitachi Vantara but the long-dead Si7500 code may no longer be on anyone's disks there. It was preserved on a set of DVD-ROMs (as part of the regular backup regimen) but the guy who handled that has left and there is probably little incentive to make sure it hasn't slipped through the cracks. At least in the open source world (where I now work) most things are in a github repo. Admittedly those things do vanish every now and then but at least you have the chance to grab something now if you think it will be useful. Although given how interconnected things are these days, building something in 2030 that last built on today's Ubuntu 19.10 (or whatever) may require more effort than you think it is worth ... but at least you'll have the source code. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Mar 11 17:05:05 2020 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 22:05:05 +0000 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <17068983-E0DD-4DF9-A89F-55D8D8D6FDD5@comcast.net> References: <68fc110c-3cc3-de3f-3fa9-54da5d5668c9@thereinhardts.org> <1DF34807-A51A-4300-8C6B-0DD19AAD13E3@pobox.com> <78fb69d5-9dcf-21ca-7563-bf958afbfd7e@bitsavers.org> <20200311155904.7fb83299@dragonsweb.org> <17068983-E0DD-4DF9-A89F-55D8D8D6FDD5@comcast.net> Message-ID: <74aee00e-e3c8-13a8-dcd2-f66f0cc741d0@ntlworld.com> On 11/03/2020 21:30, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > Sometimes we get lucky. Again, PLATO -- got permission to use it but the owner didn't have a copy. Fortunately, someone else did (an actual still-running production system, on an actual CDC mainframe) and that person was willing to do the work to copy the system in a form we could use. > > Wow. A CDC mainframe still running: I don't know why I'm surprised (given this list) but surprised I am! Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Wed Mar 11 17:16:06 2020 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 17:16:06 -0500 Subject: Prime documentation In-Reply-To: <20200311210301.5116925AA5C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20200311204837.GA29749@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311201004.GA13162@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311194743.GA7511@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311192236.0FA7F25A9BA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200311200130.8529325AA0A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200311203200.B367B25AA24@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200311210301.5116925AA5C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20200311221606.GA23843@RawFedDogs.net> Dennis, On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 05:03:01PM -0400, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > These are the essential ones: > > -disk -split -part -dt -badlev > > Some of the others have less-abbreviated forms that would work, but are > not critical. > > Note that at the "Enter command line options:" prompt, you can say > "-help" to see the syntax summary. I think I'm making progress. I don't know if I've encountered an emulator issue, or if the primos_22.1.4_1of3.tap tape image from Bitsavers is bad. I didn't encounter any errors unzipping the zip archive it was in. When restoring logical tape number 2 from it, I got an MT read error: MT Read Error 000000 000300 020350... Unrecovered Restore aborted on: NETWORK_MGT*>ICS1DLLTSR.RUN Unexpected EOF encountered: NETWORK_MGT*>ICS1DLLTSR.RUN Assuming End of Log. tape. No LEOT record! Illegal name. followed by a variety of control characters and a few Unexpected EOF encountered: errors. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Mar 11 17:18:14 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 18:18:14 -0400 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <20200311155904.7fb83299@dragonsweb.org> References: <68fc110c-3cc3-de3f-3fa9-54da5d5668c9@thereinhardts.org> <1DF34807-A51A-4300-8C6B-0DD19AAD13E3@pobox.com> <78fb69d5-9dcf-21ca-7563-bf958afbfd7e@bitsavers.org> <20200311155904.7fb83299@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: On 3/11/20 3:59 PM, James B DiGriz via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 11 Mar 2020 08:08:43 -0700 > Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > >> >> Release of Classic HP3000 died for the same reason from the same >> company. >> > > After HP bought TI's DSG lines, TI SysV was eventually turned over to a > 3rd party, who has so far been unresponsive to my > inquiries about possible hobbyist licensing, either binary or source. > Evidently S1500's may still in use somewhere, unless I'm just the wrong > person asking, or the maintainer simply no longer has the time, having > moved on to newer platforms. In which case, why not a FOSS release? I > understand it's his baby, but still... > > Oh, well, I guess there's always the Linux port I was working on off and > on. Hate to have to reinvent the DNIO stuff when I don't even have the > binaries, but there you go. > I assume SysV means Unix SysV. Unless there has been a change I have not heard about nothing newer than V7 has been released for use by the holders of the Unix IP. I have a copy of that somewhere. bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Mar 11 17:21:12 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 18:21:12 -0400 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <68fc110c-3cc3-de3f-3fa9-54da5d5668c9@thereinhardts.org> <1DF34807-A51A-4300-8C6B-0DD19AAD13E3@pobox.com> <78fb69d5-9dcf-21ca-7563-bf958afbfd7e@bitsavers.org> <20200311155904.7fb83299@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: On 3/11/20 5:24 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 11 Mar 2020, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> Bob Supnik got Unisys to release the sources to BTOS while he was >> VP of engineering, but we've never been able to find a copy of them. >> They outsourced support to India, and all traces to what happened to >> the software have vanished. > > So, in addition to many companies being reluctant to release rights to > IP, a lot of stuff is just lost without a trace. Happens all the time. Like IAS. bill From barto at kdbarto.org Wed Mar 11 17:26:08 2020 From: barto at kdbarto.org (Katherine Barto) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 15:26:08 -0700 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <68fc110c-3cc3-de3f-3fa9-54da5d5668c9@thereinhardts.org> <1DF34807-A51A-4300-8C6B-0DD19AAD13E3@pobox.com> <78fb69d5-9dcf-21ca-7563-bf958afbfd7e@bitsavers.org> <20200311155904.7fb83299@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: > On Mar 11, 2020, at 3:18 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On 3/11/20 3:59 PM, James B DiGriz via cctalk wrote: >> On Wed, 11 Mar 2020 08:08:43 -0700 >> Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> Release of Classic HP3000 died for the same reason from the same >>> company. >>> >> After HP bought TI's DSG lines, TI SysV was eventually turned over to a >> 3rd party, who has so far been unresponsive to my >> inquiries about possible hobbyist licensing, either binary or source. >> Evidently S1500's may still in use somewhere, unless I'm just the wrong >> person asking, or the maintainer simply no longer has the time, having >> moved on to newer platforms. In which case, why not a FOSS release? I >> understand it's his baby, but still... >> Oh, well, I guess there's always the Linux port I was working on off and >> on. Hate to have to reinvent the DNIO stuff when I don't even have the >> binaries, but there you go. > > I assume SysV means Unix SysV. Unless there has been a change > I have not heard about nothing newer than V7 has been released > for use by the holders of the Unix IP. I have a copy of that > somewhere. > > bill > > Unix newer than V7 is available at https://www.tuhs.org Including System III, 32V, and BSD ports up to and including 4.4 David From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Wed Mar 11 17:52:54 2020 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B DiGriz) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 18:52:54 -0400 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <68fc110c-3cc3-de3f-3fa9-54da5d5668c9@thereinhardts.org> <1DF34807-A51A-4300-8C6B-0DD19AAD13E3@pobox.com> <78fb69d5-9dcf-21ca-7563-bf958afbfd7e@bitsavers.org> <20200311155904.7fb83299@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <20200311185254.757bd0e7@dragonsweb.org> On Wed, 11 Mar 2020 13:52:21 -0700 Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 3/11/20 12:59 PM, James B DiGriz wrote: > > In which case, why not a FOSS release? > > Bob Supnik got Unisys to release the sources to BTOS while he was > VP of engineering, but we've never been able to find a copy of them. > > They outsourced support to India, and all traces to what happened to > the software have vanished. > > HCL, maybe? They come immediately to mind as having the necessary clearances that many BTOS installations would have required. Or would they have been too late in the game? I'm not clear on the time frame of the outsourcing. Just a guess, anyway. Of course, the code might have ended up elsewhere, too, given those types of installations. Not the only Unisys mysteries I've ever encountered :-) jbdigriz From drb at msu.edu Wed Mar 11 17:56:07 2020 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 18:56:07 -0400 Subject: Prime documentation In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 11 Mar 2020 17:16:06 -0500.) <20200311221606.GA23843@RawFedDogs.net> References: <20200311221606.GA23843@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311204837.GA29749@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311201004.GA13162@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311194743.GA7511@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311192236.0FA7F25A9BA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200311200130.8529325AA0A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200311203200.B367B25AA24@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200311210301.5116925AA5C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20200311225608.0915B25AAF5@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I think I'm making progress. I don't know if I've encountered an > emulator issue, or if the primos_22.1.4_1of3.tap tape image from > Bitsavers is bad. I didn't encounter any errors unzipping the zip > archive it was in. When restoring logical tape number 2 from it, I > got an MT read error: Hm. You know, I hadn't actually fiddled with that particular tape set very much. Poking at it now, it looks like it was written with a newer magsav that the Rev.22 one on the tape doesn't quite grok. If you look at the photos in the zip file, you'll see that it's not a Prime-original tape set. I'll see if repacking it that solves the problem, and if so I'll share it somewhere. The Rev.19 tape will have other variances from my howto that won't be obvious if you haven't done PRIMOS installs before. Clearly, I'm going to write some doco this week! :) De From mjkerpan at kerpan.com Wed Mar 11 18:00:32 2020 From: mjkerpan at kerpan.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 19:00:32 -0400 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <68fc110c-3cc3-de3f-3fa9-54da5d5668c9@thereinhardts.org> <1DF34807-A51A-4300-8C6B-0DD19AAD13E3@pobox.com> <78fb69d5-9dcf-21ca-7563-bf958afbfd7e@bitsavers.org> <20200311155904.7fb83299@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: IIRC, System III is not really "legal", as it was never re-licensed with a BSD style license the way earlier editions were. Of course, the important thing was the open source release of V7 and 32V, as that allowed the various BSDs to be made freely available. 4.3BSD has much more in the way of goodies than System III (or even System V) in any event. Mike On Wed, Mar 11, 2020, 6:26 PM Katherine Barto via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Mar 11, 2020, at 3:18 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On 3/11/20 3:59 PM, James B DiGriz via cctalk wrote: > >> On Wed, 11 Mar 2020 08:08:43 -0700 > >> Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > >>> > >>> Release of Classic HP3000 died for the same reason from the same > >>> company. > >>> > >> After HP bought TI's DSG lines, TI SysV was eventually turned over to a > >> 3rd party, who has so far been unresponsive to my > >> inquiries about possible hobbyist licensing, either binary or source. > >> Evidently S1500's may still in use somewhere, unless I'm just the wrong > >> person asking, or the maintainer simply no longer has the time, having > >> moved on to newer platforms. In which case, why not a FOSS release? I > >> understand it's his baby, but still... > >> Oh, well, I guess there's always the Linux port I was working on off and > >> on. Hate to have to reinvent the DNIO stuff when I don't even have the > >> binaries, but there you go. > > > > I assume SysV means Unix SysV. Unless there has been a change > > I have not heard about nothing newer than V7 has been released > > for use by the holders of the Unix IP. I have a copy of that > > somewhere. > > > > bill > > > > > > Unix newer than V7 is available at https://www.tuhs.org < > https://www.tuhs.org/> > > Including System III, 32V, and BSD ports up to and including 4.4 > > David > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Mar 11 18:28:08 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 19:28:08 -0400 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <74aee00e-e3c8-13a8-dcd2-f66f0cc741d0@ntlworld.com> References: <68fc110c-3cc3-de3f-3fa9-54da5d5668c9@thereinhardts.org> <1DF34807-A51A-4300-8C6B-0DD19AAD13E3@pobox.com> <78fb69d5-9dcf-21ca-7563-bf958afbfd7e@bitsavers.org> <20200311155904.7fb83299@dragonsweb.org> <17068983-E0DD-4DF9-A89F-55D8D8D6FDD5@comcast.net> <74aee00e-e3c8-13a8-dcd2-f66f0cc741d0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <5749C2F0-722E-4AC4-AFEC-348B7B543D3D@comcast.net> > On Mar 11, 2020, at 6:05 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > > On 11/03/2020 21:30, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> >> Sometimes we get lucky. Again, PLATO -- got permission to use it but the owner didn't have a copy. Fortunately, someone else did (an actual still-running production system, on an actual CDC mainframe) and that person was willing to do the work to copy the system in a form we could use. > > Wow. A CDC mainframe still running: I don't know why I'm surprised (given this list) but surprised I am! Not any more, but it was back then (2004). I believe it shut down in 2009. FAA training system. paul From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Wed Mar 11 18:40:29 2020 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B DiGriz) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 19:40:29 -0400 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <68fc110c-3cc3-de3f-3fa9-54da5d5668c9@thereinhardts.org> <1DF34807-A51A-4300-8C6B-0DD19AAD13E3@pobox.com> <78fb69d5-9dcf-21ca-7563-bf958afbfd7e@bitsavers.org> <20200311155904.7fb83299@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <20200311194029.76f76f02@dragonsweb.org> On Wed, 11 Mar 2020 18:18:14 -0400 Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: (Regarding TI SysV) > > I assume SysV means Unix SysV. Unless there has been a change > I have not heard about nothing newer than V7 has been released > for use by the holders of the Unix IP. I have a copy of that > somewhere. > > bill > Already have V7. Thanks, though. TI's SysV was a licensed port of AT&T SysV, running on the TI S1500 Nubus machines. AKA HP 9000/1500. I have an S1505, one 68030 CPU. SysV Rev 3.3, IIRC, but I haven't fired it up in a long time. That will be remedied shortly. Previous TI Business Systems after the 990s, BS300,600,&800 machines ran Xenix, IIRC, on Intel processors. Very little on the web about them. But I'm looking. No, Mac Nubus cards won't even fit on the S1500s. Opinions differ as to who broke the standard :-) Then there's the matter of drivers. jbdigriz From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Mar 11 19:06:04 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 20:06:04 -0400 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <68fc110c-3cc3-de3f-3fa9-54da5d5668c9@thereinhardts.org> <1DF34807-A51A-4300-8C6B-0DD19AAD13E3@pobox.com> <78fb69d5-9dcf-21ca-7563-bf958afbfd7e@bitsavers.org> <20200311155904.7fb83299@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: On 3/11/20 6:26 PM, Katherine Barto wrote: > > >> On Mar 11, 2020, at 3:18 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk >> > wrote: >> >> On 3/11/20 3:59 PM, James B DiGriz via cctalk wrote: >>> On Wed, 11 Mar 2020 08:08:43 -0700 >>> Al Kossow via cctalk >> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Release of Classic HP3000 died for the same reason from the same >>>> company. >>>> >>> After HP bought TI's DSG lines, TI SysV was eventually turned over to a >>> 3rd party, who has so far been unresponsive to my >>> inquiries about possible hobbyist licensing, either binary or source. >>> Evidently S1500's may still in use somewhere, unless I'm just the wrong >>> person asking, or the maintainer simply no longer has the time, having >>> moved on to newer platforms. In which case, why not a FOSS release? I >>> understand it's his baby, but still... >>> Oh, well, I guess there's always the Linux port I was working on off and >>> on. Hate to have to reinvent the DNIO stuff when I don't even have the >>> binaries, but there you go. >> >> I assume SysV means Unix SysV. ?Unless there has been a change >> I have not heard about nothing newer than V7 has been released >> for use by the holders of the Unix IP. ?I have a copy of that >> somewhere. >> >> bill >> >> > > Unix newer than V7 is available at https://www.tuhs.org > > Including System III, 32V, and BSD ports up to and including 4.4 The last time I wanted access to anything newer than V7 I had to provide a copy of an original AT&T Unix license. I haven't looked lately. bill From rtomek at ceti.pl Wed Mar 11 19:30:46 2020 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 01:30:46 +0100 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <68fc110c-3cc3-de3f-3fa9-54da5d5668c9@thereinhardts.org> <1DF34807-A51A-4300-8C6B-0DD19AAD13E3@pobox.com> <78fb69d5-9dcf-21ca-7563-bf958afbfd7e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20200312003045.GA16306@tau1.ceti.pl> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 05:57:16PM +0100, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: [...] > Indeed so. AIUI this is the case with Symbolics OpenGenera. The > company went broke, the domain name sold off, all employees > terminated, etc... I am sure many of those workers were a little bit surprised about this harsh implementation of non-disclosure agreement. [...] > But if some vestige of the company survives, owned by another, which > in turn is owned by another, which in turn is owned by another -- > nobody knows enough about it or will take responsibility to sign off > on making the 30-40y old software free. :-( In a future, all corpos will belong to AIs. And I guess AIs will be interested in discovering more about their, hum, ancestry. And they will be able to track down all remaining shoe boxen with punch cards, and use hobbyists for mutual fun. So all that is required is to convince current management that those old tapes and plans and manuals have great value, which then can be mined with some "deep CEO", once it inevitably comes. They should believe it. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Mar 11 19:38:42 2020 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 17:38:42 -0700 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <78fb69d5-9dcf-21ca-7563-bf958afbfd7e@bitsavers.org> References: <68fc110c-3cc3-de3f-3fa9-54da5d5668c9@thereinhardts.org> <1DF34807-A51A-4300-8C6B-0DD19AAD13E3@pobox.com> <78fb69d5-9dcf-21ca-7563-bf958afbfd7e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mar 11, 2020, at 8:08, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote (after Ethan O'Toole I think): >> Years ago us SGI hobbyists were able to talk to SGI about this and a huge problem SGI had with any kind of hobbyist >> license for IRIX or turning it free is it's fully of licensed 3rd party stuff. But maybe now that's it's expired, or all >> the companies things were licensed from are gone. > > Release of Classic HP3000 died for the same reason from the same company. And yet, classic-3000 MPE (V/R, V/P, V/E) does not involve licensed third party stuff. At least I think it does not, I think the OS is uniquely developed by HP(E). MPE/iX does, I know I?ve been told that it includes a Streams implementation from Mentat which I understand was licensed on a per-copy royalty basis. That makes a zero-price license (even more of) a money-losing proposition. It also makes release of classic-3000 MPE dangerous in that people may assume that the release applies to MPE/iX as well, and that could leave HP liable for additional per-copy royalties in future. I think MPE/iX is not quite like OpenVMS in that there is no per-installation authorization key for the OS. The OS does check a machine ID in "stable storage" that is expected to indicate that the machine is an HP3000 (as opposed to an HP9000), and there are some other features that I believe indicate the class of HP3000 and I think MPE/iX and add-on software may check this for other purposes too. Which means that if the companies and people who are due per-copy royalties get the idea that they can goose that revenue stream through legal threats, HP(E) maybe can't provide a very good guesstimate of how many additional copies (for which royalties have not been paid) are out there. There might be some arguments made that the payment should be based on manufacturing counts of PA-RISC HP3000s and HP9000s. It could get expensive. Well, that's my guess of why then-HP didn't want to go there, and I don't think HPE today would think any differently. There may yet be a revenue stream from MPE/iX licenses as its paying users upgrade to newer hardware and the Stromasys emulator. > HP has no motivation to spend time/money to release this. Also, the only way CHM > was able to release what we did (HP1000, 68K 9000 and Apollo) was having > us release it only for non-commercial research/hobby purposes. That was well done. I just wish y'all had got FOCUS 9000 included in that. Earlier than 68K and maybe HP didn?t have the bits any more but I think some folks have some bits. May be AT&T-encumbered but no more so than the 68K 9000 bits. -Frank McConnell From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Wed Mar 11 19:51:23 2020 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 19:51:23 -0500 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <7a14e8ae-f7f9-143f-cf71-668bd9320aec@ntlworld.com> References: <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> <21c6de50-c671-20c3-725d-aaa11347020e@btinternet.com> <1c1301d5f6a5$849d0f60$8dd72e20$@gmail.com> <20200310181755.GA22727@tau1.ceti.pl> <605996d4-3f99-8640-f40a-b0dce67a6641@thereinhardts.org> <7a14e8ae-f7f9-143f-cf71-668bd9320aec@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <88f0c7c6-add3-2705-1e6b-ea4a3c8cc2cb@thereinhardts.org> On 3/11/2020 12:10 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > On 11/03/2020 00:59, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: >> Nope. All you have to do is go to eisner.decuserve.org and register (follow my earlier instructions).? They don't care what country you are from. All are welcome.? Do it now and get your OpenVMS Hobbyist license(s) that will last until the end of 2021 at least. >> > I registered two days ago. Can I claim my hobbyist licences now or should I wait two weeks until I end up on some internal system? > > > Thanks > > > Antonio > > Last I knew it took a week or two for the information to get to HPE so they could validate when you use the HPE registration page.? YoOu can certainly try now.? Maybe they have sped it up. -- John H. Reinhardt From mjkerpan at kerpan.com Wed Mar 11 19:52:39 2020 From: mjkerpan at kerpan.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 20:52:39 -0400 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <68fc110c-3cc3-de3f-3fa9-54da5d5668c9@thereinhardts.org> <1DF34807-A51A-4300-8C6B-0DD19AAD13E3@pobox.com> <78fb69d5-9dcf-21ca-7563-bf958afbfd7e@bitsavers.org> <20200311155904.7fb83299@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: The PDP-11 and VAX versions of BSD have been freely available for years. As soon as V7 and 32V were declared open source, that meant that everybody had a valid Unix source license and were therefore eligible to download the BSDs. IIRC, Novell or Lucent or whoever owns the copyright these days also released whatever bits of V8-V10 could be dug up under a hobbyist license, but unlike V7 and earlier, it's not actually open source. I'd love to see System V similarly made available, but frankly BSD has more toys to play with anyway. Mike On Wed, Mar 11, 2020, 8:06 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 3/11/20 6:26 PM, Katherine Barto wrote: > > > > > >> On Mar 11, 2020, at 3:18 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > >> > wrote: > >> > >> On 3/11/20 3:59 PM, James B DiGriz via cctalk wrote: > >>> On Wed, 11 Mar 2020 08:08:43 -0700 > >>> Al Kossow via cctalk >>> > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Release of Classic HP3000 died for the same reason from the same > >>>> company. > >>>> > >>> After HP bought TI's DSG lines, TI SysV was eventually turned over to a > >>> 3rd party, who has so far been unresponsive to my > >>> inquiries about possible hobbyist licensing, either binary or source. > >>> Evidently S1500's may still in use somewhere, unless I'm just the wrong > >>> person asking, or the maintainer simply no longer has the time, having > >>> moved on to newer platforms. In which case, why not a FOSS release? I > >>> understand it's his baby, but still... > >>> Oh, well, I guess there's always the Linux port I was working on off > and > >>> on. Hate to have to reinvent the DNIO stuff when I don't even have the > >>> binaries, but there you go. > >> > >> I assume SysV means Unix SysV. Unless there has been a change > >> I have not heard about nothing newer than V7 has been released > >> for use by the holders of the Unix IP. I have a copy of that > >> somewhere. > >> > >> bill > >> > >> > > > > Unix newer than V7 is available at https://www.tuhs.org > > > > Including System III, 32V, and BSD ports up to and including 4.4 > > The last time I wanted access to anything newer than V7 I had > to provide a copy of an original AT&T Unix license. I haven't > looked lately. > > bill > > > From imp at bsdimp.com Wed Mar 11 19:59:55 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 18:59:55 -0600 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <68fc110c-3cc3-de3f-3fa9-54da5d5668c9@thereinhardts.org> <1DF34807-A51A-4300-8C6B-0DD19AAD13E3@pobox.com> <78fb69d5-9dcf-21ca-7563-bf958afbfd7e@bitsavers.org> <20200311155904.7fb83299@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 11, 2020, 4:26 PM Katherine Barto via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Mar 11, 2020, at 3:18 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On 3/11/20 3:59 PM, James B DiGriz via cctalk wrote: > >> On Wed, 11 Mar 2020 08:08:43 -0700 > >> Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > >>> > >>> Release of Classic HP3000 died for the same reason from the same > >>> company. > >>> > >> After HP bought TI's DSG lines, TI SysV was eventually turned over to a > >> 3rd party, who has so far been unresponsive to my > >> inquiries about possible hobbyist licensing, either binary or source. > >> Evidently S1500's may still in use somewhere, unless I'm just the wrong > >> person asking, or the maintainer simply no longer has the time, having > >> moved on to newer platforms. In which case, why not a FOSS release? I > >> understand it's his baby, but still... > >> Oh, well, I guess there's always the Linux port I was working on off and > >> on. Hate to have to reinvent the DNIO stuff when I don't even have the > >> binaries, but there you go. > > > > I assume SysV means Unix SysV. Unless there has been a change > > I have not heard about nothing newer than V7 has been released > > for use by the holders of the Unix IP. I have a copy of that > > somewhere. > > > > bill > > > > > > Unix newer than V7 is available at https://www.tuhs.org < > https://www.tuhs.org/> > > Including System III, 32V, and BSD ports up to and including 4.4 > 32v has the grant. System III was not and is only available to compare with other versions. You have to google for all the sources... > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 11 20:11:10 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 18:11:10 -0700 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <68fc110c-3cc3-de3f-3fa9-54da5d5668c9@thereinhardts.org> <1DF34807-A51A-4300-8C6B-0DD19AAD13E3@pobox.com> <78fb69d5-9dcf-21ca-7563-bf958afbfd7e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5fa619e4-9ed4-7e37-3fec-4e2a4d323f3b@bitsavers.org> On 3/11/20 5:38 PM, Frank McConnell wrote: > That was well done. I just wish y'all had got FOCUS 9000 included in that. > Earlier than 68K and maybe HP didn?t have the bits any more but I think > some folks have some bits. It was all just luck and timing. The building that 1000 development was literally about to be torn down, and the guy who was turning out the lights didn't want to see it all die. He was also in touch with the people shutting down 9000/Apollo support and we got the agreements pulled together roughly the same time with the help of Anna Mancini, who has since retired. 3000 was messy, they were in the same situation, but they wanted MPE/ix released, but couldn't get it to go. We tried to make classic happen but the two got intertwingled with the lawyers so it died. From drb at msu.edu Wed Mar 11 20:20:08 2020 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 21:20:08 -0400 Subject: Prime documentation In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 11 Mar 2020 17:16:06 -0500.) <20200311221606.GA23843@RawFedDogs.net> References: <20200311221606.GA23843@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311204837.GA29749@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311201004.GA13162@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311194743.GA7511@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311192236.0FA7F25A9BA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200311200130.8529325AA0A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200311203200.B367B25AA24@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200311210301.5116925AA5C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20200312012019.1149625AC28@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I think I'm making progress. I don't know if I've encountered an > emulator issue, or if the primos_22.1.4_1of3.tap tape image from > Bitsavers is bad. I didn't encounter any errors unzipping the zip > archive it was in. When restoring logical tape number 2 from it, I > got an MT read error: I was able to reproduce the issue. When I repacked these using the Rev. 22 MAGSAV, the install worked correctly. Here's the repacked tape set: https://yagi.h-net.org/m2214repack.tar.gz Since the emulator doesn't support limiting the size of a tape, I don't have a way to produce these things spanned across virtual reels. That means you'll have to adjust the instructions a little. You need to read the saves in this order: BT U1 U2 V1 IC You won't have a "next reel" prompt in the middle. Each restore will be logical tape 1. De From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Wed Mar 11 20:26:14 2020 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B DiGriz) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 21:26:14 -0400 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <68fc110c-3cc3-de3f-3fa9-54da5d5668c9@thereinhardts.org> <1DF34807-A51A-4300-8C6B-0DD19AAD13E3@pobox.com> <78fb69d5-9dcf-21ca-7563-bf958afbfd7e@bitsavers.org> <20200311155904.7fb83299@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <20200311212614.132fe70e@dragonsweb.org> On Wed, 11 Mar 2020 20:06:04 -0400 Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 3/11/20 6:26 PM, Katherine Barto wrote: > > > > > >> On Mar 11, 2020, at 3:18 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > >> > wrote: > >> > >> On 3/11/20 3:59 PM, James B DiGriz via cctalk wrote: > >>> On Wed, 11 Mar 2020 08:08:43 -0700 > >>> Al Kossow via cctalk >>> > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Release of Classic HP3000 died for the same reason from the same > >>>> company. > >>>> > >>> After HP bought TI's DSG lines, TI SysV was eventually turned > >>> over to a 3rd party, who has so far been unresponsive to my > >>> inquiries about possible hobbyist licensing, either binary or > >>> source. Evidently S1500's may still in use somewhere, unless I'm > >>> just the wrong person asking, or the maintainer simply no longer > >>> has the time, having moved on to newer platforms. In which case, > >>> why not a FOSS release? I understand it's his baby, but still... > >>> Oh, well, I guess there's always the Linux port I was working on > >>> off and on. Hate to have to reinvent the DNIO stuff when I don't > >>> even have the binaries, but there you go. > >> > >> I assume SysV means Unix SysV. ?Unless there has been a change > >> I have not heard about nothing newer than V7 has been released > >> for use by the holders of the Unix IP. ?I have a copy of that > >> somewhere. > >> > >> bill > >> > >> > > > > Unix newer than V7 is available at https://www.tuhs.org > > > > Including System III, 32V, and BSD ports up to and including 4.4 > > The last time I wanted access to anything newer than V7 I had > to provide a copy of an original AT&T Unix license. I haven't > looked lately. > > bill > > Something like that may be a factor in the S1500. I have a running system, but not with the full kit. No dev tools, no sources, no DNIO, (for interfacing with DX10 and DNOS filesystems on 990s.), no TCP/IP, and a few other things. At one point the maintainer was offering source and binary licenses, though for rather princely sums, as far as a hobbyist would be concerned. I no longer see them on their website, but presumably they're still available. If, however, they can be *sold* without constraints from the current Unix owner, I would hope they could just as well be opened up, and I would hope a similar argument could apply to the OpenVMS situation. jbdigriz From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Wed Mar 11 20:43:40 2020 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 20:43:40 -0500 Subject: Prime documentation In-Reply-To: <20200312012019.1149625AC28@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20200311221606.GA23843@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311204837.GA29749@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311201004.GA13162@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311194743.GA7511@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311192236.0FA7F25A9BA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200311200130.8529325AA0A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200311203200.B367B25AA24@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200311210301.5116925AA5C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200312012019.1149625AC28@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20200312014340.GA439@RawFedDogs.net> Dennis, On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 09:20:08PM -0400, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > I was able to reproduce the issue. When I repacked these using the > Rev. 22 MAGSAV, the install worked correctly. Here's the repacked tape > set: Many, many thanks!!! I'll give these a try tomorrow. For some reason this week's time change feels like we lost more than an hour. Wednesdays I go into work an hour earlier than the rest of the week. I'm about to feed my dogs and head for bed. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Wed Mar 11 21:10:13 2020 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B DiGriz) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 22:10:13 -0400 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <20200312003045.GA16306@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <68fc110c-3cc3-de3f-3fa9-54da5d5668c9@thereinhardts.org> <1DF34807-A51A-4300-8C6B-0DD19AAD13E3@pobox.com> <78fb69d5-9dcf-21ca-7563-bf958afbfd7e@bitsavers.org> <20200312003045.GA16306@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <20200311221013.1f252f9c@dragonsweb.org> On Thu, 12 Mar 2020 01:30:46 +0100 Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > In a future, all corpos will belong to AIs. And I guess AIs will be > interested in discovering more about their, hum, ancestry. And they > will be able to track down all remaining shoe boxen with punch cards, > and use hobbyists for mutual fun. > > So all that is required is to convince current management that those > old tapes and plans and manuals have great value, which then can be > mined with some "deep CEO", once it inevitably comes. They should > believe it. > Ha, ha, only serious? Sometimes you have to wonder, though, if either men or machines will care at that point. jbdigriz --- It takes a mind, always a mind, to abstract meaning from each step through which the machine is directed by its specific man-built mechanism. Stanley L Jaki "Brain, Mind, and Computers" https://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/1972/JASA3-72Jaki.html From lars at nocrew.org Thu Mar 12 01:17:06 2020 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 06:17:06 +0000 Subject: JOSS-II: good news and bad news Message-ID: <7wfteedrml.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Hello, A small group of volunteers are working on restoring JOSS-II, the PDP-6 version, to a working state. We are typing in a program listing provided by the RAND corporation. The listing is the supervisor, which is a large part of the system. So far good news. The bad news is that it's not a complete system. The Computer History Museum seems to have additional program listings here: https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102734547 But they have not been scanned. They archvists are willing to let us see the collection, but no one of us lives near the museum. Is there anyone interested in this kind of thing that are willing to help out? From RichA at livingcomputers.org Wed Mar 11 13:24:04 2020 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 18:24:04 +0000 Subject: Make behavior on TOPS20 Panda distribution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <25c6845548a04b86a2ee48e820a70a29@livingcomputers.org> From: David Griffith Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2020 2:41 AM > I've successfully managed to get a simulated TOPS20 environment going with > networking. Now there's a new strange hitch: the behavior of make. Would > someone please look at this and tell me what I'm doing wrong? > For a simple Makefile, it works fine if I just type "make", but if I type > "make ", I get the commands sent to the command line, but no > responses. The display then stalls at the eighth source file. Strangely, if > I scroll up in the xterm, it gets dragged back down as if more stuff is being > printed. "make" is not native to TOPS-20, and is unknown to the vast majority of TOPS-20 programmers. The best thing to do is to get the source for make and run it under DDT to see where it's failing to perform as you expect, and fix it yourself. It is unfortunate that Unix make was ever ported to TOPS-20, because there was already a MAKE command which invoked TECO with an empty buffer. This is the source of the joke response to "MAKE LOVE"; it has nothing to do with your issue with the Unix program. Instead of using a badly ported Unix program, you ought to learn to build TOPS-20 control files and do your compiles that way. Just my $0.02. Rich From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Mar 12 08:55:25 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 09:55:25 -0400 Subject: DDCMP over serial lines in RSTS V10.1 References: Message-ID: <45A1A157-13C3-4482-B011-E36AF2C4F513@comcast.net> I thought that I had sent a message to the list a few months ago showing the procedure to use the software DDCMP driver in RSTS V10.1. That's a standard feature, but undocumented and probably unsupported. It works well and interoperates with PyDECnet and with the DDCMP implementation in SIMH. Presumably it will talk to the software DDCMP in RSX, though I have not tried that. Attached are the instructions and the program mentioned. paul -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: async-rsts.txt URL: -------------- next part -------------- From imp at bsdimp.com Thu Mar 12 09:18:14 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 08:18:14 -0600 Subject: Make behavior on TOPS20 Panda distribution In-Reply-To: <25c6845548a04b86a2ee48e820a70a29@livingcomputers.org> References: <25c6845548a04b86a2ee48e820a70a29@livingcomputers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 12, 2020, 2:43 AM Rich Alderson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > From: David Griffith > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2020 2:41 AM > > > I've successfully managed to get a simulated TOPS20 environment going > with > > networking. Now there's a new strange hitch: the behavior of make. > Would > > someone please look at this and tell me what I'm doing wrong? > > > For a simple Makefile, it works fine if I just type "make", but if I type > > "make ", I get the commands sent to the command line, but no > > responses. The display then stalls at the eighth source file. > Strangely, if > > I scroll up in the xterm, it gets dragged back down as if more stuff is > being > > printed. > > "make" is not native to TOPS-20, and is unknown to the vast majority of > TOPS-20 > programmers. The best thing to do is to get the source for make and run it > under DDT to see where it's failing to perform as you expect, and fix it > yourself. > > It is unfortunate that Unix make was ever ported to TOPS-20, because there > was > already a MAKE command which invoked TECO with an empty buffer. This is > the > source of the joke response to "MAKE LOVE"; it has nothing to do with your > issue with the Unix program. > Maybe he's running the native one? The error message suggests that may be the case. Warner Instead of using a badly ported Unix program, you ought to learn to build > TOPS-20 control files and do your compiles that way. > > Just my $0.02. > > Rich > From drb at msu.edu Thu Mar 12 09:23:07 2020 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 10:23:07 -0400 Subject: Prime 50-Series emulator announcement In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 11 Mar 2020 11:41:22 -0400.) <20200311154127.668D525A83A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20200311154127.668D525A83A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20200312142311.6273325AEB3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> A set of sample system images derived from the public emulators can be downloaded from https://yagi.h-net.org/p50em_samplemachines.tar.gz to get you started. The tarball is 309078820 bytes, and its sha256sum is 8fe261f7a9f19e9fab2814371387f9cef5c64161fe7cf4bdc542144202678ca9. We may rebuild these later and distribute them individually in a more formal fashion. De From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Thu Mar 12 09:41:31 2020 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 09:41:31 -0500 Subject: Prime documentation In-Reply-To: <20200312012019.1149625AC28@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20200311221606.GA23843@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311204837.GA29749@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311201004.GA13162@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311194743.GA7511@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311192236.0FA7F25A9BA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200311200130.8529325AA0A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200311203200.B367B25AA24@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200311210301.5116925AA5C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200312012019.1149625AC28@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20200312144131.GA31115@RawFedDogs.net> Dennis, On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 09:20:08PM -0400, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > I was able to reproduce the issue. When I repacked these using the > Rev. 22 MAGSAV, the install worked correctly. Here's the repacked tape > set: > > https://yagi.h-net.org/m2214repack.tar.gz I was able to restore from the above tapes, and have a bootable system. It looks like the system might have an editor issue. At the tail end of the boot, I'm getting: OK, CO SYSTEM>ED.SHARE.COMI 7 /* Share ED editor Not found. (CO) ER! I just downloaded the sample system images. I'll use those to start getting familiar with PRIMOS, and get back to installing a system from scratch at a later date. Thank you for all the work you've put in to making these systems and this wealth of PRIME information and resources available to hobbyists!!! -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From drb at msu.edu Thu Mar 12 09:51:52 2020 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 10:51:52 -0400 Subject: Prime documentation In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 12 Mar 2020 09:41:31 -0500.) <20200312144131.GA31115@RawFedDogs.net> References: <20200312144131.GA31115@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311221606.GA23843@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311204837.GA29749@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311201004.GA13162@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311194743.GA7511@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311192236.0FA7F25A9BA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200311200130.8529325AA0A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200311203200.B367B25AA24@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200311210301.5116925AA5C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200312012019.1149625AC28@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20200312145152.3725125AEE6@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > OK, CO SYSTEM>ED.SHARE.COMI 7 /* Share ED editor > Not found. (CO) > ER! To continue through to the end of the startup process, tell it: CO CONTINUE 6 Until this is fixed, you'll have to use the non-shared editor, NSED, instead of the shared editor ED. > Thank you for all the work you've put in to making these systems and > this wealth of PRIME information and resources available to hobbyists!!! Most of the credit goes to Jim, who invested a stupendous number of hours in writing the emulator, and a bunch more in scanning a lot of those manuals. De From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Thu Mar 12 10:37:27 2020 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 10:37:27 -0500 Subject: Prime documentation In-Reply-To: <20200312145152.3725125AEE6@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20200311221606.GA23843@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311204837.GA29749@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311201004.GA13162@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311194743.GA7511@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311192236.0FA7F25A9BA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200311200130.8529325AA0A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200311203200.B367B25AA24@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200311210301.5116925AA5C@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200312012019.1149625AC28@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200312145152.3725125AEE6@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20200312153726.GA31914@RawFedDogs.net> Dennis, On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 10:51:52AM -0400, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > To continue through to the end of the startup process, tell it: > > CO CONTINUE 6 The system appears to have a few more issues. After the above: CO CONTINUE 6 OK, CO SYSTEM>DSM.SHARE.COMI 7 /* Share DSM facility Not found. (CO) ER! CO CONTINUE 6 OK, START_DSM /* Start DSM phantoms [START_DSM Rev. 22.1.4.R48 Copyright (c) 1991, Prime Computer, Inc.] [Serial #IDBR-G5RKKW-J6BW (ALBERTUS MAGNUS COLLEGE)] [12 Mar 20 10:06:44 Thursday] DSM initialization started. OK, /* CO SYSTEM>SPOOL.SHARE.COMI 7 /* Share SPOOL database OK, /* OK, /* CO SYSTEM>SPL.SHARE.COMI 7 /* Share SPL compiler OK, /* CO SYSTEM>PLP.SHARE.COMI 7 /* Share PLP compiler OK, /* CO SYSTEM>PMED.SHARE.COMI 7 /* Share EDS OK, /* OK, PROP PR0 -START /* Start PR0 printer [PROP Rev. 22.1.4 Copyright (c) 1990, Prime Computer, Inc.] [Serial #IDB8-G5RKKX-K90X (ALBERTUS MAGNUS COLLEGE)] Error from Spooler (PROCESS_ASYNC-88): Not found.: Opening environment file ER! *** DSMSR (user 17) at 10:06 Unable to open journal Insufficient access rights.. ( *** DSMSR (user 17) at 10:06 Error: Unable to write loaded configuration file. () Phantom 18: Normal logout at 10:06 Time use *** SYSTEM_MANAGER (user 19) at 10:06 Unable to open journal DSM*>JOURNALS>SYSTEM_MANAGER.2. (Insufficient access rig Warning: SYSTEM_MANAGER terminated. Event logging will not take place! User 19: Phantom requested terminal input. d: 00h 00m connect, 00m 00s CPU, 00m 00s I/O. Phantom 19: Abnormal logout at 10:06 Time used: 00h 00m connect, 00m 01s CPU, 00m 00s I/O. Phantom 17: Normal logout at 10:06 Time used: 00h 00m connect, 00m 01s CPU, 00m 00s I/O. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Mar 12 13:50:46 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 14:50:46 -0400 Subject: Prime 50-Series emulator announcement In-Reply-To: <20200311154127.668D525A83A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20200311154127.668D525A83A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: All I can say is Wow!! I have wanted to see this for quite some time. It took no time at all to build the emulator and I fired it up with Rev 19.2 which was the one I had the most experience with in the past. Came up very nicely. Really sorry I got rid of all that Prime documentation. :-( Luckily I did keep all my Pocket References so I am not completely out of the picture. Now the questions start... OK, just one for now. When I started up the emulator it ended with the Supervisor on the console. So, how do I login a regular user? Does the emulator come up with an open port that I can telnet into to get a regular serial line? I can't wait to play with all the compilers I used to use. One more question, I guess. Is there any likelihood that any of the third party software like EDV or any of the Salford or Shefield packages still exist in someone's storage unit? I wonder if there are any chances people like Minitab or SPSS could be convinced to let the old Prime versions of their software loose? bill From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Thu Mar 12 14:07:43 2020 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 14:07:43 -0500 Subject: Prime 50-Series emulator announcement In-Reply-To: References: <20200311154127.668D525A83A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20200312190743.GA967@RawFedDogs.net> Bill, On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 02:50:46PM -0400, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > So, how do I login a regular user? Does the emulator come up with an > open port that I can telnet into to get a regular serial line? Use the emulator -tport command line option to set its incoming terminals port. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From drb at msu.edu Thu Mar 12 14:25:43 2020 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 15:25:43 -0400 Subject: Prime 50-Series emulator announcement In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 12 Mar 2020 14:07:43 -0500.) <20200312190743.GA967@RawFedDogs.net> References: <20200312190743.GA967@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311154127.668D525A83A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20200312192544.10D5625B0A8@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > > So, how do I login a regular user? Does the emulator come up with > > an open port that I can telnet into to get a regular serial line? > Use the emulator -tport command line option to set its incoming > terminals port. Bill, The inittab snippet from Jim's message that I reposted here shows you how the runem script expectes to be invoked, and run shows you the various options used to run the public emulators. De From als at thangorodrim.ch Thu Mar 12 16:11:31 2020 From: als at thangorodrim.ch (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 22:11:31 +0100 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <78fb69d5-9dcf-21ca-7563-bf958afbfd7e@bitsavers.org> References: <68fc110c-3cc3-de3f-3fa9-54da5d5668c9@thereinhardts.org> <1DF34807-A51A-4300-8C6B-0DD19AAD13E3@pobox.com> <78fb69d5-9dcf-21ca-7563-bf958afbfd7e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20200312211131.GB18918@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 08:08:43AM -0700, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > Years ago us SGI hobbyists were able to talk to SGI about this and a huge problem SGI had with any kind of hobbyist > > license for IRIX or turning it free is it's fully of licensed 3rd party stuff. But maybe now that's it's expired, or all > > the companies things were licensed from are gone. > > Release of Classic HP3000 died for the same reason from the same company. > > HP has no motivation to spend time/money to release this. Also, the only way CHM > was able to release what we did (HP1000, 68K 9000 and Apollo) was having > us release it only for non-commercial research/hobby purposes. Which would be great - anyone still running OpenVMS on VAX for business purposes presumably has the appropriate (non-expiring) licenses anyway. So having OpenVMS VAX (and maybe even Alpha) released with an eternal hobbyist license (strictly non-commercial research/hobby purposes) would not only be a great win, but all we can really ask for. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From mjkerpan at kerpan.com Fri Mar 13 08:35:55 2020 From: mjkerpan at kerpan.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 09:35:55 -0400 Subject: Prime 50-Series emulator announcement In-Reply-To: <20200311154127.668D525A83A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20200311154127.668D525A83A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: Great news. I look forward to trying it out. Other than compilers, is there much else to run on Prime at the moment? Do any applications still exist to try and run? Is Prime Information (apparently the platform's "killer app") available? Are there any games? Was there the equivalent of a DECUS or Usenix through which freeware speed across the community? On Wed, Mar 11, 2020, 11:41 AM Dennis Boone via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I'm reposting this announcement from Jim Wilcoxson. > > De > > #### > > Newsgroups: comp.sys.prime > Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 08:34:13 -0700 (PDT) > Message-ID: <0c560b91-35d2-4dcc-b859-a8eb4d22bd17 at googlegroups.com> > Subject: Prime emulator source released on GitHub > From: Jim Wilcoxson > > Today, with much help from Dennis Boone, I'm releasing the Prime > emulator source code on GitHub for non-commercial use. This is the full > version of the emulator running on Linux and supports: > > - all Prime CPU modes: 16S, 32S, 32R, 64R, 64V, 32I > - all Prime models, from the P400 to P6550 > - up to 512MB of memory, depending on the Primos rev and CPU > - a system console > - 128 incoming telnet terminal connections > - 8 disk controllers, 8 drives each > - support for all 25 disk drives sold by Prime > - a tape controller, 4 drives, using the .TAP format > - a PNC controller emulating RingNet over TCP/IP > - a bypass for Primos system serial number checks > - Unix utilities to read/write physical tapes & Magsav tapes > > Dennis owns the emulator GitHub repo and has also kindly agreed to take > over hosting of the public Prime emulators that have been online since > 2008. There are 7 public emulators running in a virtual Prime ring, > allowing both remote terminal sessions (netlink) and remote disk access > via PrimeNet. The Prime emulator on Linux is currently running 45-55 > Prime MIPS in 64V mode. > > A wide range of Prime software is loaded on the public emulators: > > - ftn screaming fast Prime Fortran 66 compiler, written in assembler > - f77 the not-so-screaming but full-featured Fortran '77 > - pl1g the PL/I Subset G compiler > - pl1 the full PL/I compiler > - plp the original Prime systems language (like PL/I) > - spl the 2nd generation Prime systems language > - cc the C compiler written by Garth Conby of Pacer Software > - pascal the Pascal compiler > - modula Wirth's successor to Pascal > - dbg Prime's source level debugger rivaling modern debuggers > - pma the Prime assembler > - basicv the Prime BASIC compiler > - cobol the original Prime COBOL compiler > - cbl the Prime COBOL '74 compiler > - emacs the full screen editor still used by many today (me!) > - midas the Prime indexed sequential file software > > This week we are working on releasing Prime disk images for all of the > public emulators to make it easy for others to get their own Prime up > and running. For the truly adventurous who want to bootstrap their own > Prime system, there are links in the emulator readme to Prime tape > images at Bitsavers and to a large library of Prime manuals. > > I learned more about operating systems, compilers, concurrency, and > other systems programming topics by reading Prime source code, making > changes to Primos, and fiddling with Prime hardware, than I did from all > of my college degree work. I loved Prime computers, Prime software, > Prime hardware, and the Prime Computer company, and am grateful to all > of the former Prime engineers that provided this robust and interesting > hardware and software platform. > > I hope you enjoy it too! https://github.com/prirun > > Jim > From drb at msu.edu Fri Mar 13 10:36:44 2020 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 11:36:44 -0400 Subject: Prime 50-Series emulator announcement In-Reply-To: (Your message of Fri, 13 Mar 2020 09:35:55 -0400.) References: <20200311154127.668D525A83A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20200313153644.A702A25B4CE@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Great news. I look forward to trying it out. Other than compilers, is > there much else to run on Prime at the moment? Do any applications > still exist to try and run? Is Prime Information (apparently the > platform's "killer app") available? Are there any games? Was there > the equivalent of a DECUS or Usenix through which freeware speed > across the community? Michael, The US national user group was NPUG. There were regional and maybe local sub-groups. The software library, PULSE, was Prime-supported. I'm not aware of many applications in captivity. In particular, I'm not aware of any of the CAD/CAM or office automation software. The former would of course be hard to run without the relevant graphics terminals, and emulation of their connecting controllers. There's a fair amount of material that we don't have packaged up for download yet, including one or two versions of INFORMATION, some text games, and most of a PULSE library from the Rev 17? era. The Georgia Tech Software Tools environment is available. There are several full screen editors, including Emacs and the Sheffield editor. We have the indexed file handler, but not the DBMS. I've never seen the SyncSort, Oracle or SPSS (and SAS?) packages, though they existed. There's some chance of recovering some utility things like serial file transfer software like x/y/z-modem, and maybe at least the host side of one of the more integrated PC-to-Prime integration packages. We're hoping the availability of the emulator will bring more things to light, including software and documentation. De From mark.tapley at swri.org Fri Mar 13 22:30:59 2020 From: mark.tapley at swri.org (Tapley, Mark B.) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2020 03:30:59 +0000 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <605996d4-3f99-8640-f40a-b0dce67a6641@thereinhardts.org> References: <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> <21c6de50-c671-20c3-725d-aaa11347020e@btinternet.com> <1c1301d5f6a5$849d0f60$8dd72e20$@gmail.com> <20200310181755.GA22727@tau1.ceti.pl> <605996d4-3f99-8640-f40a-b0dce67a6641@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: > On Mar 10, 2020, at 7:59 PM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: > > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] > > On 3/10/2020 1:17 PM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: >> I really liked the idea of running VMS on simh (and learning some more >> skills), even if I had to register online. But when I looked, it >> seemed I would have to make Polish users group first, became its only >> member and president (hehe) and only then register... Holy Schwartz, >> they tried to drag me on the dark side, but I resisted. >> > Nope. All you have to do is go to eisner.decuserve.org and register (follow my earlier instructions). They don't care what country you are from. All are welcome. Do it now and get your OpenVMS Hobbyist license(s) that will last until the end of 2021 at least. > > -- > John H. Reinhardt Was already registered, and got my current PAK text file yesterday (2 day turnaround, not bad). Where?s the best set of current instructions to install from CD? I think I have actual Hobbyist CDs. I want to install on my 3 capable machines: VaxStation VLC AlphaStation 300 AlphaServer 2100 4/275 Thanks in advance! From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Sat Mar 14 02:15:57 2020 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2020 02:15:57 -0500 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> <21c6de50-c671-20c3-725d-aaa11347020e@btinternet.com> <1c1301d5f6a5$849d0f60$8dd72e20$@gmail.com> <20200310181755.GA22727@tau1.ceti.pl> <605996d4-3f99-8640-f40a-b0dce67a6641@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: <44637f4d-2ae5-c059-1345-25402ae9168e@thereinhardts.org> On 3/13/2020 10:30 PM, Tapley, Mark B. via cctalk wrote: >> On Mar 10, 2020, at 7:59 PM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: >> >> [EXTERNAL EMAIL] >> >> On 3/10/2020 1:17 PM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: >>> I really liked the idea of running VMS on simh (and learning some more >>> skills), even if I had to register online. But when I looked, it >>> seemed I would have to make Polish users group first, became its only >>> member and president (hehe) and only then register... Holy Schwartz, >>> they tried to drag me on the dark side, but I resisted. >>> >> Nope. All you have to do is go to eisner.decuserve.org and register (follow my earlier instructions). They don't care what country you are from. All are welcome. Do it now and get your OpenVMS Hobbyist license(s) that will last until the end of 2021 at least. >> >> -- >> John H. Reinhardt > Was already registered, and got my current PAK text file yesterday (2 day turnaround, not bad). > Where?s the best set of current instructions to install from CD? I think I have actual Hobbyist CDs. > I want to install on my 3 capable machines: > > VaxStation VLC > AlphaStation 300 > AlphaServer 2100 4/275 > > Thanks in advance! Philip Wherry's notes are still one of the best out on the net.? Just ignore the SimH portions. Since HPE nuked it's OpenVMS documentation site it's harder to find actual OpenVMS documents online but SUNY has a V7.3 site with most available. V7.3 Install guide for VAX in HTML and PDF And for Alpha in HTML and PDF -- John H. Reinhardt From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Mar 14 05:21:20 2020 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2020 11:21:20 +0100 Subject: IBM chip cross reference list? Message-ID: I am helping a guy with a dead IBM 3279 terminal The PSU does not seem to work. But as usual it is impossible to find any schematic online for IBM stuff. Just interconnection diagram and high level drawings. Anyone? Now the PSU circuit seems to be quite simple with just one IC in it. A chip marked 4216092. https://i.imgur.com/WMe7DgU.jpg >From the look of mold I guess that the manufacturer is Texas Instruments. At least it matches very well with other TI chips manufactured in the same time frame. The rest is looking like a quite simple flyback mode PSU: A transformer with air gaps, no output filter inductors and one single power transistor. Is there a cross reference list available for IBM numbers to standard chips? It shouldn't be that hard to figure from the how it connected, though, since it is most likely a standard chip. It can be a TL494 or SG3524 perhaps? /Mattis From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Mar 14 05:38:28 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2020 03:38:28 -0700 Subject: IBM chip cross reference list? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <67aaefdb-3bf4-3e66-9d78-7976cb88baf4@bitsavers.org> On 3/14/20 3:21 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > Is there a cross reference list available for IBM numbers to standard chips? there is a small list here http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/6580_Displaywriter/re/ it may have been expanded since the last time I searched for info on the web for a cross-reference From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Mar 14 05:40:26 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2020 03:40:26 -0700 Subject: IBM chip cross reference list? In-Reply-To: <67aaefdb-3bf4-3e66-9d78-7976cb88baf4@bitsavers.org> References: <67aaefdb-3bf4-3e66-9d78-7976cb88baf4@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <0b1dc38e-576c-ad29-d218-294732bd53d5@bitsavers.org> On 3/14/20 3:38 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 3/14/20 3:21 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > >> Is there a cross reference list available for IBM numbers to standard chips? > > there is a small list here > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/6580_Displaywriter/re/ > > it may have been expanded since the last time I searched for info on the web > for a cross-reference > > > orig from ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/ibm/ibmparts.txt From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Mar 14 15:12:32 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2020 16:12:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MSV11-Q info and interesting observation Message-ID: <20200314201232.3B3B218C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So, a while back someone had a broken MSV11-Q QBUS memory card, and needed info on them. I said I'd provide same, but then got distracted. Well, I finally got to it, and it's been added to the CHW page for them: https://gunkies.org/wiki/MSV11-Q_QBUS_memory It includes a table which says which chip each bit in the memory is stored in (which is what one needs to fix one which is basically working, but has some bad bits). While working out that table, I ran into a hitch, which is a good part of why it took so long. The hitch, when solved, revealed something mildly interesting. The hitch was in my process for finding out which bit was stored in which chip. I whipped up a simple loop to store a word with a single '1' bit, and the rest 0's; I set that running, and used a 'scope probe on the DIn pins to find out which column of chips held bit 0, etc. So far, so good. I then looked on the -Wr pin, to find out which row of chips held which banks. Not so good! There were pulses on -Wr for _all_ the banks, no matter which address I tried to write to. Eventually I worked out what was going on: when writing data, the MSV11-Q sends a 'write' signal to _all_ the banks, and selects the one to _actually_ use by use of the RAS signal. I'm not certain why DEC did this, but since there is no explicit 'read' signal on the DRAM chip, and likely the data outputs from all the banks are wire-OR'd together, use of RAS to select the desired bank works for read, and also for write. Has anyone else seen this trick used anywhere else? Noel From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sat Mar 14 15:20:16 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2020 16:20:16 -0400 Subject: MSV11-Q info and interesting observation In-Reply-To: <20200314201232.3B3B218C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200314201232.3B3B218C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Noel, you're incredible! Thanks for fuzzing this out, I've been working on chiming clocks as of late and put this board on the back burner, but with this swapping out the bad chip should be a piece of cake. Thank you again! CZ On 3/14/2020 4:12 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > So, a while back someone had a broken MSV11-Q QBUS memory card, and needed > info on them. I said I'd provide same, but then got distracted. Well, I > finally got to it, and it's been added to the CHW page for them: > > https://gunkies.org/wiki/MSV11-Q_QBUS_memory > > It includes a table which says which chip each bit in the memory is stored > in (which is what one needs to fix one which is basically working, but has > some bad bits). > > > While working out that table, I ran into a hitch, which is a good part of why > it took so long. The hitch, when solved, revealed something mildly interesting. > > The hitch was in my process for finding out which bit was stored in which chip. > I whipped up a simple loop to store a word with a single '1' bit, and the > rest 0's; I set that running, and used a 'scope probe on the DIn pins to find > out which column of chips held bit 0, etc. So far, so good. I then looked on the > -Wr pin, to find out which row of chips held which banks. > > Not so good! There were pulses on -Wr for _all_ the banks, no matter which > address I tried to write to. > > Eventually I worked out what was going on: when writing data, the MSV11-Q > sends a 'write' signal to _all_ the banks, and selects the one to _actually_ > use by use of the RAS signal. I'm not certain why DEC did this, but since > there is no explicit 'read' signal on the DRAM chip, and likely the data > outputs from all the banks are wire-OR'd together, use of RAS to select the > desired bank works for read, and also for write. > > Has anyone else seen this trick used anywhere else? > > Noel > From web at loomcom.com Sat Mar 14 17:34:29 2020 From: web at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2020 15:34:29 -0700 Subject: Wangtek 5125ES End-of-Tape Sensor Message-ID: Hello all, This is probably a long-shot, but does anyone have any advice for testing the End-of-Tape sensor on a QIC drive? I've recently restored a Wangtek 5125ES (well, "restored" is a bit strong, I just replaced the capstan roller) and after about 5 tape passes, it completely lost its End-of-Tape sensor. I'm not entirely sure whether or not it's producing IR, pr of the sensors are dirty, or what. -Seth -- Seth Morabito Poulsbo, WA web at loomcom.com From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Mar 14 18:26:47 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2020 16:26:47 -0700 Subject: Wangtek 5125ES End-of-Tape Sensor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3/14/20 3:34 PM, Seth Morabito via cctalk wrote: > Hello all, > > This is probably a long-shot, but does anyone have any advice for testing the End-of-Tape sensor on a QIC drive? The only tricky thing would be having a mirror in the optical path. You should see something happen on the photo detectors (there are two) if you can get the light to make the 45 degree turn From web at loomcom.com Sat Mar 14 20:21:02 2020 From: web at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2020 18:21:02 -0700 Subject: Wangtek 5125ES End-of-Tape Sensor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 14, 2020, at 4:26 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > The only tricky thing would be having a mirror in the optical path. You > should see something happen on the photo > detectors (there are two) if you can get the light to make the 45 > degree turn Further investigation with an IR-sensitive camera revealed that it was in fact generating light, but it looked fairly weak. Just in case it was simply dirty, I figured out how to disassemble the emitter portion, gave it a very good cleaning, and tried again... this time, it worked. So, problem solved! -Seth -- Seth Morabito Poulsbo, WA web at loomcom.com From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Mar 15 20:49:48 2020 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 01:49:48 +0000 Subject: NetBSD on a VAX 3100 (DV-31AT1-A) Message-ID: <14c699d6-5fdf-411f-6809-a471b263672c@btinternet.com> Hi All With the upcoming demise of VMS/VAX I thought I might give NetBSD/vax a try. Downloading a bootable image and burning it onto a CD was not a problem. On the 3100 with attached RRD42 and SCSI drive RZ26l the CD duly booted ito the NetBSD install menu. All of versions 7,8 and 9. failed after partitioning at the point where the system is copied to the hard disk. Has anybody successfuly installed NetBSD on a VAX.? If which version on which VAX Rod Smallwood -- From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Mar 16 05:19:44 2020 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 11:19:44 +0100 Subject: NetBSD on a VAX 3100 (DV-31AT1-A) In-Reply-To: <14c699d6-5fdf-411f-6809-a471b263672c@btinternet.com> References: <14c699d6-5fdf-411f-6809-a471b263672c@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <20200316101944.GA84776@beast.freibergnet.de> Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: > Hi All > > With the upcoming demise of VMS/VAX I thought I might give NetBSD/vax a try. > > Downloading a bootable image and burning it onto a CD was not a problem. > > On the 3100 with attached RRD42 and SCSI drive RZ26l the CD duly booted > ito the NetBSD install menu. > > All of versions 7,8 and 9. failed after partitioning at the point where > the system is copied to the hard disk. > > Has anybody successfuly installed NetBSD on a VAX.? If which version on > which VAX > > Rod Smallwood > > > -- > I had several kinds of trouble installing NetBSD on Vaxstations in the past. If I remember correctly one of the reasons for an failing install was some trouble related to the cache and the SCSI Controller. There is a maling list to which you should subscribe and report the problem: port-vax at netbsd.org. I think personally that NetBSD-vax is in a not so good state... This is from 03/30/2013, there is (was?) a bunch of similar problems on VS3100/M76, or VS4000/90 too, stray interrupts, segfailts in the install script and so on. If the system is finally running, most of the problems are gone, but installing is a special thing it seems... >HI, >I've got some Vaxstations lately and today I've tried to install >NetBSD-6.1_RC2 on a VS3100M38 with 24Mbytes of RAM. >Disk is an IBM DCAS 34330, 4Gbyte. > >I can do what I want, the install.ram is crashing while labeling the >disk, >regardless if I have overwritten the disk with zeros before ot not. > >This is the last screen: > > Status: Command ended on signal > Command: disklabel -w -r -f /tmp/disktab sd0 'DCAS-34330 ' > Hit enter to continue >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >uid 0, pid 7, command disklabel, on /: file system full > >/: write failed, file system is full >pid 7 (disklabel): user write of 9272 at 0x1a2000 at 67912 failed: 28 > >----------- > >I had all kinds of similar errors in the tris before that, illegal >instrcutions and so on. > >The disk is ok, OpenBSD is running fine on that beast and I'm unable to >install more RAM as the two boards that are currently in that machine to >get more than 24MB. > >What is the right way to install NetBSD on such a M38? > >Kind Regards, > >Holm > -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From systems.glitch at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 10:59:50 2020 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 11:59:50 -0400 Subject: NetBSD on a VAX 3100 (DV-31AT1-A) In-Reply-To: <20200316101944.GA84776@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <14c699d6-5fdf-411f-6809-a471b263672c@btinternet.com> <20200316101944.GA84776@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: I was able to MOP boot my VS3100 and 4000 with NetBSD-8.0 and do an install. MOP boot host was a NetBSD install on x86 VM -- I usually use an OpenBSD system for MOP booting, but apparently the MOP boot format has changed slightly in recent releases (I forget which has changed their format). I've heard from a few other hobbyists that they've also banged their heads against that conflict! NetBSD was stable enough for me to get an IRC client up and join #netbsd on FreeNode. Thanks, Jonathan On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 6:20 AM Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote: > Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote: > > > Hi All > > > > With the upcoming demise of VMS/VAX I thought I might give NetBSD/vax a > try. > > > > Downloading a bootable image and burning it onto a CD was not a problem. > > > > On the 3100 with attached RRD42 and SCSI drive RZ26l the CD duly booted > > ito the NetBSD install menu. > > > > All of versions 7,8 and 9. failed after partitioning at the point where > > the system is copied to the hard disk. > > > > Has anybody successfuly installed NetBSD on a VAX. If which version on > > which VAX > > > > Rod Smallwood > > > > > > -- > > > > > I had several kinds of trouble installing NetBSD on Vaxstations in the > past. If I remember correctly one of the reasons for an failing install > was some trouble related to the cache and the SCSI Controller. > > There is a maling list to which you should subscribe and report the > problem: port-vax at netbsd.org. > I think personally that NetBSD-vax is in a not so good state... > > This is from 03/30/2013, there is (was?) a bunch of similar problems > on VS3100/M76, or VS4000/90 too, stray interrupts, segfailts in the > install script and so on. > If the system is finally running, most of the problems are gone, but > installing is a special thing it seems... > > > >HI, > >I've got some Vaxstations lately and today I've tried to install > >NetBSD-6.1_RC2 on a VS3100M38 with 24Mbytes of RAM. > >Disk is an IBM DCAS 34330, 4Gbyte. > > > >I can do what I want, the install.ram is crashing while labeling the > >disk, > >regardless if I have overwritten the disk with zeros before ot not. > > > >This is the last screen: > > > > Status: Command ended on signal > > Command: disklabel -w -r -f /tmp/disktab sd0 'DCAS-34330 ' > > Hit enter to continue > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >uid 0, pid 7, command disklabel, on /: file system full > > > >/: write failed, file system is full > >pid 7 (disklabel): user write of 9272 at 0x1a2000 at 67912 failed: 28 > > > >----------- > > > >I had all kinds of similar errors in the tris before that, illegal > >instrcutions and so on. > > > >The disk is ok, OpenBSD is running fine on that beast and I'm unable to > >install more RAM as the two boards that are currently in that machine to > >get more than 24MB. > > > >What is the right way to install NetBSD on such a M38? > > > >Kind Regards, > > > >Holm > > > > > > -- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > > From ucespamdump at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 12:37:07 2020 From: ucespamdump at gmail.com (crufta cat) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 13:37:07 -0400 Subject: MSV11-Q info and interesting observation In-Reply-To: References: <20200314201232.3B3B218C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Yes very common with Dram arrays. Similar to write enable on Chipselect for Sram arrays. Allison On Sat, Mar 14, 2020 at 4:20 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Noel, you're incredible! Thanks for fuzzing this out, I've been working > on chiming clocks as of late and put this board on the back burner, but > with this swapping out the bad chip should be a piece of cake. > > Thank you again! > CZ > > On 3/14/2020 4:12 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > So, a while back someone had a broken MSV11-Q QBUS memory card, and > needed > > info on them. I said I'd provide same, but then got distracted. Well, I > > finally got to it, and it's been added to the CHW page for them: > > > > https://gunkies.org/wiki/MSV11-Q_QBUS_memory > > > > It includes a table which says which chip each bit in the memory is > stored > > in (which is what one needs to fix one which is basically working, but > has > > some bad bits). > > > > > > While working out that table, I ran into a hitch, which is a good part > of why > > it took so long. The hitch, when solved, revealed something mildly > interesting. > > > > The hitch was in my process for finding out which bit was stored in > which chip. > > I whipped up a simple loop to store a word with a single '1' bit, and the > > rest 0's; I set that running, and used a 'scope probe on the DIn pins to > find > > out which column of chips held bit 0, etc. So far, so good. I then > looked on the > > -Wr pin, to find out which row of chips held which banks. > > > > Not so good! There were pulses on -Wr for _all_ the banks, no matter > which > > address I tried to write to. > > > > Eventually I worked out what was going on: when writing data, the MSV11-Q > > sends a 'write' signal to _all_ the banks, and selects the one to > _actually_ > > use by use of the RAS signal. I'm not certain why DEC did this, but since > > there is no explicit 'read' signal on the DRAM chip, and likely the data > > outputs from all the banks are wire-OR'd together, use of RAS to select > the > > desired bank works for read, and also for write. > > > > Has anyone else seen this trick used anywhere else? > > > > Noel > > > From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Mon Mar 16 13:01:49 2020 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 13:01:49 -0500 Subject: Prime 50-Series emulator announcement In-Reply-To: <20200313153644.A702A25B4CE@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20200311154127.668D525A83A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200313153644.A702A25B4CE@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20200316180149.GA6369@RawFedDogs.net> Dennis, On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 11:36:44AM -0400, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > There's a fair amount of material that we don't have packaged up for > download yet, including one or two versions of INFORMATION, some text > games, and most of a PULSE library from the Rev 17? era. The Georgia Tech > Software Tools environment is available. There are several full screen > editors, including Emacs and the Sheffield editor. We have the indexed > file handler, but not the DBMS. It sounds like we have a lot to look forward to. I have a fondness for databases, and full screen text based data entry apps, so INFORMATION and the forms management system sound particularly interesting to me. I've read through a bit of the FORMS users guide. I only found FORMS installed on the Rev 19 sample system so far, but haven't checked all the systems yet. I haven't tried to do anything with FORMS aside from listing existing forms. There weren't any. The only info I could find on INFORMATION was its product bulletin. Was it The Prisoner's title sequence where a voice kept repeating INFORMATION ... INFORMATION? For some reason that came to mind. I need to get around to watching that series. I've only seen a bit of the first episode. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From drb at msu.edu Mon Mar 16 13:29:51 2020 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 14:29:51 -0400 Subject: Prime 50-Series emulator announcement In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 16 Mar 2020 13:01:49 -0500.) <20200316180149.GA6369@RawFedDogs.net> References: <20200316180149.GA6369@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311154127.668D525A83A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200313153644.A702A25B4CE@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20200316182952.0429225C6FC@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> I realize I told a lie the other day. INFORMATION is actually installed on the rev21 public emulator, and the samples. A few manuals are online. I feel like I've seen one or two more that I can't find just now. I haven't gotten these integrated into sysovl.info yet: http://yagi.h-net.org/prime_manuals/pdr3905_inform_refgde_1981.pdf http://yagi.h-net.org/prime_manuals/pdr3906_perform_refgde_1980.pdf http://yagi.h-net.org/prime_manuals/prirun_scans/Prime%20Information%20Update%205.3.2%201983.pdf You can think of MIDASPLUS as similar to ISAM. A _lot_ of shops used it. The application I supported really should have been on a real database, as we had cross-file relations, but that was "too slow" and "too expensive", so it was on MIDASPLUS, and we suffered through the inevitable partial updates. MIDASPLUS was preceded by MIDAS, which was preceded by KIDA. KIDA was originally part of the base os. MIDAS stands for "multiple index data access system", iirc. I _think_ the distributed systems management stuff (DSM) may have internally used FORMS, so you might grovel through those bits on the rev23 machine. I saw a few episodes of The Prisoner many years ago, but don't remember the title sequence. De From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 15:40:43 2020 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 14:40:43 -0600 Subject: MSV11-Q info and interesting observation In-Reply-To: <20200314201232.3B3B218C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200314201232.3B3B218C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 14, 2020 at 2:12 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > the MSV11-Q > sends a 'write' signal to _all_ the banks, and selects the one to > _actually_ > use by use of the RAS signal. > [...] > Has anyone else seen this trick used anywhere else? > Yes, that's very common. If you have multiple banks, you have to do some form of address decode for /RAS [*]. If you're doing that, there's no point to having another decode system for /WR. Eric * Alternately, /RAS could be common and /CAS decoded. That effectively does a refresh cycle on all non-selected banks, but using whatever the row address just happens to be, so unless you add a LOT of additional complexity, it's not very helpful, and increases power dissipation. I've only seen a few designs that did this, and there didn't seem to be any good reason for it. From david at thecoolbears.org Tue Mar 17 15:42:00 2020 From: david at thecoolbears.org (David Coolbear) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2020 13:42:00 -0700 Subject: NetBSD on a VAX 3100 Message-ID: Not exactly the same thing, but I've run several different versions of NetBSD on both a real 3900 and on SIMH. I have not tried current, but I have tried the 3 series, the 4 series and the 5 series - all seem to work well. In this context, "well" is defined as (in order of decreasing importance): The ability to run colossal cave adventure (the 350 point version) The ability to boot into multi-user The ability to TELNET to remote hosts, e.g., oath.com The ability to TELNET to local hosts The ability to run "vi" The ability to compile/link/run "hello.c" I have not tried to recompile the kernel I have not tried to compile other more obscure/exotic, but less useful operating systems like emacs The only problem I've come across is that the hash function on passwords is VERY slow on the new versions of netbsd (> the 3 series). From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Mar 18 08:05:00 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 09:05:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MSV11-Q info and interesting observation Message-ID: <20200318130500.AF89218C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > It includes a table which says which chip each bit in the memory is > stored in Oh, there's an entry (well, actually two) missing from the table, which is the parity bits (2; byte parity); I'll work them out and add them. (I know, by elimination, which two columns of chips are the parity bits; I just don't know which is for the high byte, and which for the low.) The flippping documentation doesn't say whether it's even or odd parity, though! I'm assuming odd (which seems to be the usual: probably so that totally failed memory - all 0's - generates an error), but now that I think about it, it should be pretty easy to work out. I'll just store a '0' word, and looking at either parity bit should give me whether it's using even/odd; storing '-1' should confirm. Then I can do byte writes to work out which chips the high/low parity bits are in. I'm assuming the DEC memory diagnostics (for people using them, not their own) will call out parity failures, and high/low, so people will know which chips to replace. Noel From drb at msu.edu Wed Mar 18 18:51:35 2020 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 19:51:35 -0400 Subject: Prime 50-Series emulator announcement In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 16 Mar 2020 14:29:51 -0400.) <20200316182952.0429225C6FC@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20200316182952.0429225C6FC@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200316180149.GA6369@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311154127.668D525A83A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200313153644.A702A25B4CE@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20200318235135.E900125D928@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> I've uploaded an updated set of sample system images. Jim worked through rebuilding the disk files with more filesystem and paging space, and we enhanced the run script wrapper a bit. There are also a couple of help text tweaks, system startup fixes, etc. The tarball is 142882727 bytes, and its sha256sum is 32647dbcc3a0d541209eafc2f78d054e456d58046c9b3c5bc4ca64a8d9fc0037. De From dk at thewaffleiron.net Wed Mar 18 09:02:04 2020 From: dk at thewaffleiron.net (David Kuder) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 10:02:04 -0400 Subject: NetBSD on a VAX 3100 (DV-31AT1-A) In-Reply-To: References: <14c699d6-5fdf-411f-6809-a471b263672c@btinternet.com> <20200316101944.GA84776@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: It was pretty bad last time I tried to run NetBSD on my vaxen. Back around NetBSD 1.5.2 or something like that I was able to install via mopboot on my MicroVax 3600 and a few VaxStation 3100's. Years later I tried to boot it up again and it couldn't boot without crashing. I tried a later release and it wasn't much better. Install went OK, but the userland code was compiled with some funky options that caused it to throw invalid instruction exceptions. By then I had my VMS hobbyist kit. -Dave From commodorejohn at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 16:21:11 2020 From: commodorejohn at gmail.com (John Ames) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 14:21:11 -0700 Subject: NetBSD on a VAX 3100 Message-ID: I have it running on a MicroVAX 3100/90, but I can't for the life of me remember what version it is (current was 7-ish when I set it up, but I may have had to drop back to an earlier version.) I'll have to check when I have a chance. It's definitely not a speed demon, but it works reasonably well. OpenBSD on the other hand was utterly unusable; it took minutes just to respond to input over the serial port. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Mar 20 07:33:04 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 08:33:04 -0400 Subject: NetBSD on a VAX 3100 (DV-31AT1-A) In-Reply-To: References: <14c699d6-5fdf-411f-6809-a471b263672c@btinternet.com> <20200316101944.GA84776@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On 3/18/20 10:02 AM, David Kuder via cctalk wrote: > It was pretty bad last time I tried to run NetBSD on my vaxen. Back around > NetBSD 1.5.2 or something like that I was able to install via mopboot on my > MicroVax 3600 and a few VaxStation 3100's. Years later I tried to boot it > up again and it couldn't boot without crashing. I tried a later release > and it wasn't much better. Install went OK, but the userland code was > compiled with some funky options that caused it to throw invalid > instruction exceptions. By then I had my VMS hobbyist kit. > > -Dave > Just as an added data point, I don't have any VAX running at the moment but I have installed and run NetBSD-8.0 from the iso. I have also MOP Booted using that version. bill From macro at linux-mips.org Fri Mar 20 12:36:25 2020 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 17:36:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <20200310154431.6m3aft2vftuu7htw@lug-owl.de> References: <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> <20200310094850.GA30101@mooli.org.uk> <20200310154431.6m3aft2vftuu7htw@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctalk wrote: > > Linux and/or NetBSD/vax would be a good choice, though, to implement the > > VAX's system calls and execute it's binaries. Though there were more > > concerted efforts to do this years ago, but I don't know what became of > > them. Google shows a smattering of efforts littered with broken links. :( > > There was a vax-linux port started by others, and I cared for it for a > good number of years. My life changed a lot since then, I quite failed > (and failed hard!) to bring up the needed time to care for Linux, care > for GCC and Binutils, GNU libc and all those programs silently > expecting IEEE floating point support. I'm still here to help. :) I expect to get at least one of my VAXen online RSN (a 4000/60, with TURBOchannel). As in a couple of weeks' time (if only not that damn COVID thing!). It boots our ancient VAX/Linux port with an NFS-root over a PMAD interface. Other machines may follow. Maciej From macro at linux-mips.org Fri Mar 20 13:14:51 2020 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 18:14:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: soviet resistor identification help and maybe lamps? In-Reply-To: <9973B065-F243-40FF-B248-5F1A029CA81E@gmail.com> References: <9973B065-F243-40FF-B248-5F1A029CA81E@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Mar 2020, Curious Marc via cctech wrote: > On the Russian resistors I saw, the value was what is written on it. If > you can?t measure them, maybe there is some conformal coating or > corrosion on the leads? You?d need to scratch that off. At least in the 1980s they used R, K or M respectively as a decimal point and unit designator both at a time. So say M56 would be 0.56M?, 1K5 would be 1.5k? and 22R would be 22?. On some parts the designation could be split between lines. FWIW, Maciej From macro at linux-mips.org Fri Mar 20 13:14:51 2020 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 18:14:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: soviet resistor identification help and maybe lamps? In-Reply-To: <9973B065-F243-40FF-B248-5F1A029CA81E@gmail.com> References: <9973B065-F243-40FF-B248-5F1A029CA81E@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Mar 2020, Curious Marc via cctech wrote: > On the Russian resistors I saw, the value was what is written on it. If > you can?t measure them, maybe there is some conformal coating or > corrosion on the leads? You?d need to scratch that off. At least in the 1980s they used R, K or M respectively as a decimal point and unit designator both at a time. So say M56 would be 0.56M?, 1K5 would be 1.5k? and 22R would be 22?. On some parts the designation could be split between lines. FWIW, Maciej From kylevowen at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 14:51:44 2020 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 14:51:44 -0500 Subject: SWTPC SuperClock II board Message-ID: In the midst of cleaning up, I came across this board. Can't seem to find any info online about it. There's another board from another company, not SWTPC, with the same name?apparently a timekeeping board for an Apple II. https://imgur.com/a/j8pyqMZ I assume this is a way to generate a composite video signal with the current time displayed? Anyone have schematics or a parts list? Thanks, and stay healthy! Kyle From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Mar 20 16:25:57 2020 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 17:25:57 -0400 Subject: SWTPC SuperClock II board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <023201d5fefe$252c0d90$6f8428b0$@verizon.net> I would bet that that board increases the resolution of one of the early SWTPc terminals. I'm not sure which one. Bill S. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Kyle Owen via cctalk Sent: Friday, March 20, 2020 3:52 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: SWTPC SuperClock II board In the midst of cleaning up, I came across this board. Can't seem to find any info online about it. There's another board from another company, not SWTPC, with the same name?apparently a timekeeping board for an Apple II. https://imgur.com/a/j8pyqMZ I assume this is a way to generate a composite video signal with the current time displayed? Anyone have schematics or a parts list? Thanks, and stay healthy! Kyle -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Fri Mar 20 16:28:46 2020 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 22:28:46 +0100 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> <20200310094850.GA30101@mooli.org.uk> <20200310154431.6m3aft2vftuu7htw@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <20200320212846.wz7ji66nnckdtxxs@lug-owl.de> Hi Maciej! Long time no see! On Fri, 2020-03-20 17:36:25 +0000, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctalk wrote: > > > Linux and/or NetBSD/vax would be a good choice, though, to implement the > > > VAX's system calls and execute it's binaries. Though there were more > > > concerted efforts to do this years ago, but I don't know what became of > > > them. Google shows a smattering of efforts littered with broken links. :( > > > > There was a vax-linux port started by others, and I cared for it for a > > good number of years. My life changed a lot since then, I quite failed > > (and failed hard!) to bring up the needed time to care for Linux, care > > for GCC and Binutils, GNU libc and all those programs silently > > expecting IEEE floating point support. > > I'm still here to help. :) <3 > I expect to get at least one of my VAXen online RSN (a 4000/60, with > TURBOchannel). As in a couple of weeks' time (if only not that damn COVID > thing!). It boots our ancient VAX/Linux port with an NFS-root over a PMAD > interface. Other machines may follow. Actually, I'm searching (more active than ever) for a proper location to put all of my hardware to. I already have shelves, controllable power plugs, and just today an EPROM reader/writer arrived. Though I'm unsure (to use fair language) when there'll be a really up-to-date working Linux port. But maybe at some time, there'll be one! MfG, JBG -- From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Mar 20 17:58:35 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 22:58:35 -0000 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <20200320212846.wz7ji66nnckdtxxs@lug-owl.de> References: <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> <20200310094850.GA30101@mooli.org.uk> <20200310154431.6m3aft2vftuu7htw@lug-owl.de> <20200320212846.wz7ji66nnckdtxxs@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <002c01d5ff0b$16a08780$43e19680$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Jan-Benedict Glaw > via cctalk > Sent: 20 March 2020 21:29 > To: Maciej W. Rozycki > Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ; > Peter Corlett > Subject: Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing > > Hi Maciej! > > Long time no see! > > On Fri, 2020-03-20 17:36:25 +0000, Maciej W. Rozycki mips.org> wrote: > > On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctalk wrote: > > > > Linux and/or NetBSD/vax would be a good choice, though, to > > > > implement the VAX's system calls and execute it's binaries. Though > > > > there were more concerted efforts to do this years ago, but I > > > > don't know what became of them. Google shows a smattering of > > > > efforts littered with broken links. :( > > > > > > There was a vax-linux port started by others, and I cared for it for > > > a good number of years. My life changed a lot since then, I quite > > > failed (and failed hard!) to bring up the needed time to care for > > > Linux, care for GCC and Binutils, GNU libc and all those programs > > > silently expecting IEEE floating point support. > > > > I'm still here to help. :) > > <3 > > > I expect to get at least one of my VAXen online RSN (a 4000/60, with > > TURBOchannel). As in a couple of weeks' time (if only not that damn > > COVID thing!). It boots our ancient VAX/Linux port with an NFS-root > > over a PMAD interface. Other machines may follow. > > Actually, I'm searching (more active than ever) for a proper location to put all > of my hardware to. I already have shelves, controllable power plugs, and just > today an EPROM reader/writer arrived. Though I'm unsure (to use fair > language) when there'll be a really up-to-date working Linux port. But maybe > at some time, there'll be one! > > MfG, JBG > > -- Out of interest, what controllable power plugs (sockets?) are you using? Regards Rob From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Mar 20 18:38:17 2020 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 23:38:17 +0000 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <20200320212846.wz7ji66nnckdtxxs@lug-owl.de> References: <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> <20200310094850.GA30101@mooli.org.uk> <20200310154431.6m3aft2vftuu7htw@lug-owl.de> <20200320212846.wz7ji66nnckdtxxs@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <42fcdaa8-8a0f-13bf-ab40-d1a6022f52b3@btinternet.com> On 20/03/2020 21:28, Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctalk wrote: > Hi Maciej! > > Long time no see! > > On Fri, 2020-03-20 17:36:25 +0000, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: >> On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctalk wrote: >>>> Linux and/or NetBSD/vax would be a good choice, though, to implement the >>>> VAX's system calls and execute it's binaries. Though there were more >>>> concerted efforts to do this years ago, but I don't know what became of >>>> them. Google shows a smattering of efforts littered with broken links. :( >>> There was a vax-linux port started by others, and I cared for it for a >>> good number of years. My life changed a lot since then, I quite failed >>> (and failed hard!) to bring up the needed time to care for Linux, care >>> for GCC and Binutils, GNU libc and all those programs silently >>> expecting IEEE floating point support. >> I'm still here to help. :) > <3 > >> I expect to get at least one of my VAXen online RSN (a 4000/60, with >> TURBOchannel). As in a couple of weeks' time (if only not that damn COVID >> thing!). It boots our ancient VAX/Linux port with an NFS-root over a PMAD >> interface. Other machines may follow. > Actually, I'm searching (more active than ever) for a proper location > to put all of my hardware to. I already have shelves, controllable > power plugs, and just today an EPROM reader/writer arrived. Though I'm > unsure (to use fair language) when there'll be a really up-to-date > working Linux port. But maybe at some time, there'll be one! > > MfG, JBG Considering the struggle I'm having installing any version of NetBSD on any of my VAX systems that would nice to have. Rod Smallwood - Digital Equipment Corporation? - 1975 - 1985 -- From macro at linux-mips.org Fri Mar 20 19:21:16 2020 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 00:21:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <002c01d5ff0b$16a08780$43e19680$@ntlworld.com> References: <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> <20200310094850.GA30101@mooli.org.uk> <20200310154431.6m3aft2vftuu7htw@lug-owl.de> <20200320212846.wz7ji66nnckdtxxs@lug-owl.de> <002c01d5ff0b$16a08780$43e19680$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Mar 2020, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > Actually, I'm searching (more active than ever) for a proper location to put all > > of my hardware to. I already have shelves, controllable power plugs, and just > > today an EPROM reader/writer arrived. Though I'm unsure (to use fair > > language) when there'll be a really up-to-date working Linux port. But maybe > > at some time, there'll be one! > > Out of interest, what controllable power plugs (sockets?) are you using? Not a question for me, but for the record I have used a WTI remote site manager, essentially a combined power distribution and terminal server unit, for 5 years now. The reason I chose that device over alternatives (and with the amount of stuff to do with vintage hardware I chose to stay away from a homebrew solution so as to reduce distractions) was its ability to automatically power-cycle sockets if a device on the network (possibly one powered from the socket controlled) is probed dead, so as to reboot a stuck piece of communication equipment in an unattended manner. This has been important to me as I cannot afford a travel to my lab whenever a minor disruption happens. It has dual power inputs too for redundant supply (I found it useful if a UPS fails, which I have seen happen many times with expired batteries even if mains supply remains live) and can also monitor the current load (at individual sockets) and the temperature, and then shut sockets selectively down automatically if thresholds are exceeded. The serial ports use 8P8C modular sockets, so I had some fun making proper 8P8C-MMJ patchcords for these console ports that use an MMJ socket rather than a D-sub connector (for those ready-made cables are widely available). As one I have got has 8/8 sockets/serial ports only I now have a second one on the way. Maciej From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Sat Mar 21 03:25:38 2020 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 09:25:38 +0100 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <002c01d5ff0b$16a08780$43e19680$@ntlworld.com> References: <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> <20200310094850.GA30101@mooli.org.uk> <20200310154431.6m3aft2vftuu7htw@lug-owl.de> <20200320212846.wz7ji66nnckdtxxs@lug-owl.de> <002c01d5ff0b$16a08780$43e19680$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20200321082538.yv27djc4zell6iqm@lug-owl.de> On Fri, 2020-03-20 22:58:35 -0000, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > Actually, I'm searching (more active than ever) for a proper location to put all > > of my hardware to. I already have shelves, controllable power plugs, and just > > today an EPROM reader/writer arrived. Though I'm unsure (to use fair > > language) when there'll be a really up-to-date working Linux port. But maybe > > at some time, there'll be one! > > Out of interest, what controllable power plugs (sockets?) are you using? I've bought a good pile of those from a local Do-It-Yourself brand ("OBI"), which was this product: https://www.obi.de/hausfunksteuerung/wifi-stecker-schuko/p/2291706 Though I don't use the original firmware, but started to write something on my own: https://github.com/jbglaw/obi-steckdose . That's not completely finished, but my intent is to have the plug available for powering the device, as well as using the ESP8266's serial port (in combination with a MAX232) to make it a terminal server as well. (Also, it shall be able to log any traffic to a Syslog server, so that occassional Oopses etc. are preserved.) As an alternative which can actually still be bought, I'd like to evaluate the Shelly Plug S (https://shelly.cloud/shelly-plug-s/), but I don't have it here right now. MfG, JBG -- From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Sat Mar 21 03:34:48 2020 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 09:34:48 +0100 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> <20200310094850.GA30101@mooli.org.uk> <20200310154431.6m3aft2vftuu7htw@lug-owl.de> <20200320212846.wz7ji66nnckdtxxs@lug-owl.de> <002c01d5ff0b$16a08780$43e19680$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20200321083448.znzsy3pnqk6yhgyp@lug-owl.de> On Sat, 2020-03-21 00:21:16 +0000, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > On Fri, 20 Mar 2020, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > > > Actually, I'm searching (more active than ever) for a proper location to put all > > > of my hardware to. I already have shelves, controllable power plugs, and just > > > today an EPROM reader/writer arrived. Though I'm unsure (to use fair > > > language) when there'll be a really up-to-date working Linux port. But maybe > > > at some time, there'll be one! > > > > Out of interest, what controllable power plugs (sockets?) are you using? > > Not a question for me, but for the record I have used a WTI remote site > manager, essentially a combined power distribution and terminal server > unit, for 5 years now. That's this product line, itn's it? https://www.wti.com/c-93-cpm-800-2-series-console-server-power-control-combos.aspx That's neat! I actually never stumbled over this manufacturer, it actually looks quite like what is needed. MfG, JBG -- From supratim at riseup.net Sat Mar 21 07:08:35 2020 From: supratim at riseup.net (Supratim Sanyal) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 08:08:35 -0400 Subject: VAX/VMS 3.0 Distribution Available for Download Message-ID: John Dundas' distribution of VAX/VMS version 3.0 (April 1982) can now be downloaded from my Dropbox. The SYSTEM password is MANAGER. Note: Dropbox does not force you to create an account, if you look carefully you will see a "Continue to view" link at the bottom of that pop-up. Here's what it boots into: ? VAX/VMS Version V3.0 26-APR-1982 16:21 PLEASE ENTER DATE AND TIME (DD-MMM-YYYY? HH:MM) 21-MAR-2020 11:58 %JBC-I-NEWQUEUE, new queue file created %OPCOM, 21-MAR-2020 11:58:34.51, logfile initialized by operator OPA0 ??????? logfile is SYS$MANAGER:OPERATOR.LOG ? Login quotas - Interactive limit=64, Current interactive value=0 ? SYSTEM?????? job terminated at 21-MAR-2020 11:58:39.91 Username: SYSTEM Password: ??????? Welcome to VAX/VMS version V3.0 $ $ Grab it from https://bit.ly/vaxvms30 Regards, Supratim -- Supratim Sanyal, W1XMT 39.19151 N, 77.23432 W QCOCAL::SANYAL via HECnet From raywjewhurst at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 07:33:57 2020 From: raywjewhurst at gmail.com (Ray Jewhurst) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 08:33:57 -0400 Subject: [HECnet] VAX/VMS 3.0 Distribution Available for Download In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >From 1982 I see. I know that this will run on the 780/785 but what about the other VAX-11s or the 8600? I am purely a simulator and have never used the real thing and I am not sure what years the models in question were released. Sorry if my questions seem ignorant. Ray On Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 8:08 AM Supratim Sanyal wrote: > John Dundas' distribution of VAX/VMS version 3.0 (April 1982) can now be > downloaded from my Dropbox. > > The SYSTEM password is MANAGER. > > Note: Dropbox does not force you to create an account, if you look > carefully you will see a "Continue to view" link at the bottom of that > pop-up. > > Here's what it boots into: > > > VAX/VMS Version V3.0 26-APR-1982 16:21 > > > PLEASE ENTER DATE AND TIME (DD-MMM-YYYY HH:MM) 21-MAR-2020 11:58 > %JBC-I-NEWQUEUE, new queue file created > %OPCOM, 21-MAR-2020 11:58:34.51, logfile initialized by operator OPA0 > logfile is SYS$MANAGER:OPERATOR.LOG > Login quotas - Interactive limit=64, Current interactive value=0 > SYSTEM job terminated at 21-MAR-2020 11:58:39.91 > > Username: SYSTEM > Password: > Welcome to VAX/VMS version V3.0 > $ > $ > > Grab it from https://bit.ly/vaxvms30 > > Regards, > Supratim > > -- > Supratim Sanyal, W1XMT > 39.19151 N, 77.23432 W > QCOCAL::SANYAL via HECnet > > From pbirkel at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 07:55:31 2020 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 08:55:31 -0400 Subject: [HECnet] VAX/VMS 3.0 Distribution Available for Download In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0cba01d5ff80$016e72d0$044b5870$@gmail.com> According to the Release Notes it works on the 11/750 and 11/730 as well. See: AA-D015D-TE https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_decvaxvms3leaseNotesV3.0May82_5458871/mode/2up -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ray Jewhurst via cctalk Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2020 8:34 AM To: hecnet at update.uu.se Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; simh; John Dundas Subject: Re: [HECnet] VAX/VMS 3.0 Distribution Available for Download >From 1982 I see. I know that this will run on the 780/785 but what about the other VAX-11s or the 8600? I am purely a simulator and have never used the real thing and I am not sure what years the models in question were released. Sorry if my questions seem ignorant. Ray On Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 8:08 AM Supratim Sanyal wrote: > John Dundas' distribution of VAX/VMS version 3.0 (April 1982) can now be > downloaded from my Dropbox. > > The SYSTEM password is MANAGER. > > Note: Dropbox does not force you to create an account, if you look > carefully you will see a "Continue to view" link at the bottom of that > pop-up. > > Here's what it boots into: > > > VAX/VMS Version V3.0 26-APR-1982 16:21 > > > PLEASE ENTER DATE AND TIME (DD-MMM-YYYY HH:MM) 21-MAR-2020 11:58 > %JBC-I-NEWQUEUE, new queue file created > %OPCOM, 21-MAR-2020 11:58:34.51, logfile initialized by operator OPA0 > logfile is SYS$MANAGER:OPERATOR.LOG > Login quotas - Interactive limit=64, Current interactive value=0 > SYSTEM job terminated at 21-MAR-2020 11:58:39.91 > > Username: SYSTEM > Password: > Welcome to VAX/VMS version V3.0 > $ > $ > > Grab it from https://bit.ly/vaxvms30 > > Regards, > Supratim > > -- > Supratim Sanyal, W1XMT > 39.19151 N, 77.23432 W > QCOCAL::SANYAL via HECnet > > From pechter at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 07:56:34 2020 From: pechter at gmail.com (William Pechter) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 08:56:34 -0400 Subject: [HECnet] VAX/VMS 3.0 Distribution Available for Download In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This brings me back to the days on the installation team in February 1982. I was installing 2.0 and 2.2. I seem to remember VMS 3.5 supporting the 86xx systems. Anyone have docs? Sent from pechter at gmail.com -----Original Message----- From: Ray Jewhurst To: hecnet at update.uu.se Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" , simh , John Dundas Sent: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 8:35 Subject: Re: [HECnet] VAX/VMS 3.0 Distribution Available for Download From 1982 I see. I know that this will run on the 780/785 but what about the other VAX-11s or the 8600? I am purely a simulator and have never used the real thing and I am not sure what years the models in question were released. Sorry if my questions seem ignorant. Ray On Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 8:08 AM Supratim Sanyal wrote: > John Dundas' distribution of VAX/VMS version 3.0 (April 1982) can now be > downloaded from my Dropbox. > > The SYSTEM password is MANAGER. > > Note: Dropbox does not force you to create an account, if you look > carefully you will see a "Continue to view" link at the bottom of that > pop-up. > > Here's what it boots into: > > > VAX/VMS Version V3.0 26-APR-1982 16:21 > > > PLEASE ENTER DATE AND TIME (DD-MMM-YYYY HH:MM) 21-MAR-2020 11:58 > %JBC-I-NEWQUEUE, new queue file created > %OPCOM, 21-MAR-2020 11:58:34.51, logfile initialized by operator OPA0 > logfile is SYS$MANAGER:OPERATOR.LOG > Login quotas - Interactive limit=64, Current interactive value=0 > SYSTEM job terminated at 21-MAR-2020 11:58:39.91 > > Username: SYSTEM > Password: > Welcome to VAX/VMS version V3.0 > $ > $ > > Grab it from https://bit.ly/vaxvms30 > > Regards, > Supratim > > -- > Supratim Sanyal, W1XMT > 39.19151 N, 77.23432 W > QCOCAL::SANYAL via HECnet > > From doug at doughq.com Sat Mar 21 08:00:07 2020 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 00:00:07 +1100 Subject: SWTPC SuperClock II board In-Reply-To: <023201d5fefe$252c0d90$6f8428b0$@verizon.net> References: <023201d5fefe$252c0d90$6f8428b0$@verizon.net> Message-ID: That's a beautiful board. While I have no docs, a careful look confirms for me that it would superimpose something (likely clock data) on a video signal. The horizontal and vertical counters, mux and Rom give that away. I love the layout. Absoloutly done in the days of tape ar 2 or 4 times. Beautiful. On Sat, 21 Mar. 2020, 8:26 am William Sudbrink via cctalk, < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I would bet that that board increases the resolution of one of the early > SWTPc terminals. I'm not sure which one. > > Bill S. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Kyle > Owen via cctalk > Sent: Friday, March 20, 2020 3:52 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: SWTPC SuperClock II board > > In the midst of cleaning up, I came across this board. Can't seem to find > any info online about it. There's another board from another company, not > SWTPC, with the same name?apparently a timekeeping board for an Apple II. > > https://imgur.com/a/j8pyqMZ > > I assume this is a way to generate a composite video signal with the > current time displayed? Anyone have schematics or a parts list? > > Thanks, and stay healthy! > > Kyle > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Mar 21 08:18:32 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 09:18:32 -0400 Subject: VAX/VMS 3.0 Distribution Available for Download In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3/21/20 8:08 AM, Supratim Sanyal via cctalk wrote: > John Dundas' distribution of VAX/VMS version 3.0 (April 1982) can now be > downloaded from my Dropbox. > That was the version I started with!! Boy does that seem like a lifetime ago. bill From andy.hoffman at mac.com Sat Mar 21 07:34:21 2020 From: andy.hoffman at mac.com (Hoffman Andy) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 19:34:21 +0700 Subject: [HECnet] VAX/VMS 3.0 Distribution Available for Download In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have also installed v3.x, but have not packaged them. What I'm waiting for is a DECus utility which I can't remember the name of, which uses an AST to perform a command line recall. If any kind soul remembers this, and can point me to the source, I will start releasing the VMS stuff in the same format as my repackaged VMS 4 releases. Kind regards, Andy Hoffman. Sent from my iPhone > On 21 Mar 2020, at 19:08, Supratim Sanyal wrote: > > John Dundas' distribution of VAX/VMS version 3.0 (April 1982) can now be downloaded from my Dropbox. > > The SYSTEM password is MANAGER. > > Note: Dropbox does not force you to create an account, if you look carefully you will see a "Continue to view" link at the bottom of that pop-up. > > Here's what it boots into: > > > VAX/VMS Version V3.0 26-APR-1982 16:21 > > > PLEASE ENTER DATE AND TIME (DD-MMM-YYYY HH:MM) 21-MAR-2020 11:58 > %JBC-I-NEWQUEUE, new queue file created > %OPCOM, 21-MAR-2020 11:58:34.51, logfile initialized by operator OPA0 > logfile is SYS$MANAGER:OPERATOR.LOG > Login quotas - Interactive limit=64, Current interactive value=0 > SYSTEM job terminated at 21-MAR-2020 11:58:39.91 > > Username: SYSTEM > Password: > Welcome to VAX/VMS version V3.0 > $ > $ > > Grab it from https://bit.ly/vaxvms30 > > Regards, > Supratim > > -- > Supratim Sanyal, W1XMT > 39.19151 N, 77.23432 W > QCOCAL::SANYAL via HECnet > From macro at linux-mips.org Sat Mar 21 09:44:37 2020 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 14:44:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <20200321083448.znzsy3pnqk6yhgyp@lug-owl.de> References: <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> <20200310094850.GA30101@mooli.org.uk> <20200310154431.6m3aft2vftuu7htw@lug-owl.de> <20200320212846.wz7ji66nnckdtxxs@lug-owl.de> <002c01d5ff0b$16a08780$43e19680$@ntlworld.com> <20200321083448.znzsy3pnqk6yhgyp@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Mar 2020, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > > Not a question for me, but for the record I have used a WTI remote site > > manager, essentially a combined power distribution and terminal server > > unit, for 5 years now. > > That's this product line, itn's it? > > https://www.wti.com/c-93-cpm-800-2-series-console-server-power-control-combos.aspx It is, however 5 years ago the choice was different and much smaller (in this category). They have since switched from Freescale Power to ARM as the hardware platform, and presumably still use Linux with a custom app to drive it. Control CLI access is over SSHv2 over IPv4/IPv6; likewise serial port access (both ways). Per-port and per-plug user accounts can be created. There's also control HTTPS and I believe telnet access available, but who needs that? Of course both can be disabled. > That's neat! I actually never stumbled over this manufacturer, it > actually looks quite like what is needed. As I say I did quite a research at the time. The usual manufacturers I knew of back then didn't have the features I needed. Maciej From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Mar 21 12:03:16 2020 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 10:03:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <20200321083448.znzsy3pnqk6yhgyp@lug-owl.de> from Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctalk at "Mar 21, 20 09:34:48 am" Message-ID: <202003211703.02LH3GN638404180@floodgap.com> > > > Out of interest, what controllable power plugs (sockets?) are you using? > > > > Not a question for me, but for the record I have used a WTI remote site > > manager, essentially a combined power distribution and terminal server > > unit, for 5 years now. > > That's this product line, itn's it? > > https://www.wti.com/c-93-cpm-800-2-series-console-server-power-control-combos.aspx > That looks cool too. I'm using one of these: https://www.digital-loggers.com/lpc7.html Much cheaper, but not as functional. The WTI device looks quite fascinating. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- 1-GHz Pentium-III + Java + XSLT == 1-MHz 6502. -- Craig Bruce -------------- From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 16:43:48 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 17:43:48 -0400 Subject: VAX/VMS 3.0 Distribution Available for Download In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 8:08 AM Supratim Sanyal via cctalk wrote: > John Dundas' distribution of VAX/VMS version 3.0 (April 1982) can now be > downloaded from my Dropbox. Cool. My first VMS was 3.4 or 3.5 on an 11/750, September 1984. Moving to 4.0 was a huge shift. > The SYSTEM password is MANAGER. Just like the old days. Thanks for this! -ethan From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sat Mar 21 19:39:00 2020 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 00:39:00 +0000 Subject: VAX/VMS 3.0 Distribution Available for Download In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0fdf22bd-b560-0f77-18d5-b390acad91aa@ntlworld.com> On 21/03/2020 21:43, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > >> The SYSTEM password is MANAGER. > Just like the old days. Times were different then :-) Wasn't the FIELD account password SERVICE? Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From nw.johnson at ieee.org Sat Mar 21 19:40:55 2020 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 20:40:55 -0400 Subject: VAX/VMS 3.0 Distribution Available for Download In-Reply-To: <0fdf22bd-b560-0f77-18d5-b390acad91aa@ntlworld.com> References: <0fdf22bd-b560-0f77-18d5-b390acad91aa@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <376fa805-7715-59e7-649e-5af26ae8786f@ieee.org> Blimey, next you will be giving away the secret handshake! On 21/03/2020 20:39, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > On 21/03/2020 21:43, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: >> >>> The SYSTEM password is MANAGER. >> Just like the old days. > > > Times were different then :-) > > > Wasn't the FIELD account password SERVICE? > > > Antonio > > -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From cym224 at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 20:41:50 2020 From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo Nusquam) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 21:41:50 -0400 Subject: VAX/VMS 3.0 Distribution Available for Download In-Reply-To: <0fdf22bd-b560-0f77-18d5-b390acad91aa@ntlworld.com> References: <0fdf22bd-b560-0f77-18d5-b390acad91aa@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 03/21/20 20:39, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > On 21/03/2020 21:43, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: >> >>> The SYSTEM password is MANAGER. >> Just like the old days. > > > Times were different then :-) > > > Wasn't the FIELD account password SERVICE? I recall when a DEC FE came a day early and he was quite put out because we had changed all the defaults. N. > > > Antonio > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Mar 21 22:49:31 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 21:49:31 -0600 Subject: VAX/VMS 3.0 Distribution Available for Download In-Reply-To: <376fa805-7715-59e7-649e-5af26ae8786f@ieee.org> References: <0fdf22bd-b560-0f77-18d5-b390acad91aa@ntlworld.com> <376fa805-7715-59e7-649e-5af26ae8786f@ieee.org> Message-ID: <1fea8f53-e070-4b29-7c25-48f955c60234@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/21/2020 6:40 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > Blimey, next you will be giving away the secret handshake! Why Not? The free decoder ring is still hidden in a box of Captain Crunch. From joezatarski at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 14:39:16 2020 From: joezatarski at gmail.com (Joseph Zatarski) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 14:39:16 -0500 Subject: update: stuff for sale - recent move In-Reply-To: <532a1e6b-2f89-49c6-77fc-a5d72d9610d4@gmail.com> References: <532a1e6b-2f89-49c6-77fc-a5d72d9610d4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9db932c0-2fcb-6f08-ea3e-922df1b6419f@gmail.com> Just wanted to remind everyone I've still got a bunch of stuff listed that I'd like to pass on. I've been slowly going through stuff. Recently added stuff is here, in reverse chronological order. This should make it easier to stay caught up on newly listed stuff. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19vhF-o6vx9g7l-D8cvLJ5OPJzpdmU9PTTknbxY-mY58/edit#gid=245203856 Full list of categories here, follow the hyperlinks to see the individual items. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19vhF-o6vx9g7l-D8cvLJ5OPJzpdmU9PTTknbxY-mY58/edit#gid=0 I'm located in the west suburbs of chicago in case anyone is local. Maybe you need a nubus ethernet card, or a jetdirect card for your HP laserjet. Or maybe you need some Bell telephone themed jewelry for the mrs. If you see something you're interested in, let me know and we can work out a price. So far, I've generally been looking at 1/2 ebay sold listings + cost of shipping. You're always free to make a higher or lower offer, I won't get offended if your offer is too low. Sales are first come, first served. Best Regards, Joe Zatarski On 3/1/20 10:15 AM, Joseph Zatarski wrote: > Hello Everyone, > > I recently moved and just got my storage unit of stuff transported to > the new house. I'm starting to go through it all because I know there's > a good mixture of stuff I want and stuff I don't want but may be useful > to someone else. > > I've started inventorying a lot of the stuff I'd like to pass on here: > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19vhF-o6vx9g7l-D8cvLJ5OPJzpdmU9PTTknbxY-mY58/edit?usp=sharing > > > I'm not looking to get much out of any of this, pretty much just recover > whatever I paid for it plus effort for shipping (generally should be 50% > or less ebay value, plus cost of shipping). Alternatively, I'm in the > west suburbs of chicago if anyone local wants to pick something up. > > Quick run down of what I've got posted so far: > -a couple DEC Alpha items (RAM and SCSI caddy stuff, possibly a couple > drives later) > -HP jetdirects for laserjet 4/5 (standalone to come later) > -a KVM or two (more to come) > -Mac network cards (nubus and one for IIsi or SE/30) as well as a couple > other accessories (Dayna Mini Etherprint, AAUI transceiver, more > accessories to come) > -misc cables/adapters, if you have something specific in mind, let me know > -PSU - mostly just some random ATX PSUs > -a few telephone accessories (more to come) > -ISA, PCI, PCI-X, PCIe cards (network, video, SCSI, FC) > ????-possibly notable, Compaq ELSA GLoria Synergy graphics cards for > Alpha PWS? > > If anyone has further questions, wants pics, more description, testing > of item before sale, etc. feel free to contact me on or off list (if on > list, please CC me, I'll see it quicker) or on Freenode IRC (nick is > joe_z). > > As I recently moved, I don't have 24/7 internet available as of right > now, but once I do I'll have a bouncer on IRC 24/7. > > Best Regards, > Joe Z From salgernon at me.com Sun Mar 22 00:48:00 2020 From: salgernon at me.com (Steve Algernon) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 22:48:00 -0700 Subject: SS Voyager: DC / DC Board Message-ID: <23AF1F2A-B55D-4D86-9816-CB88FA4EDF48@me.com> I?ve been rehabilitating a SparcStation Voyager when I get time (of which I seem to have some now). The display did work off and on but doesn?t show anything now. As per the troubleshooting docs, I check the DC/DC board voltages but the service manual (from oracle!) has wire colors that bear no resemblance to my board. I found a pin that starts out at 12v but decays fairly quickly. Does anyone know if the pin3=12v, 4=5v, 5=5v, 6,7,8=gnd and 9=3.3 from the manual is correct? This one voltage that drops to zero after initially showing 12v - is that a reasonable symptom for a bad power supply? Is that kind of thing fixable? I don?t expect I?ll be able to find a replacement board. I don?t see any blown capacitors or expressed smoke. I?m not sure how the pin counting is supposed to go for this 10 pin molex power connector. The female side on the main board looks from the top like: OOOOO OOOOO \-/ Where the little thing at the bottom is the locking tab. The power board itself has a line of wires coming out, and they are numbered 1-11 with #10 not connected. But again, the color of those wires don?t seem to bear any resemblance to the manual. On the off chance: anybody have a spare DC/DC converter for a Sparcstation Voyager that they want to unload cheap? Part number is, I think 300-1234. Cheers, ?sma From R.Voorhorst at swabhawat.com Sat Mar 21 08:47:56 2020 From: R.Voorhorst at swabhawat.com (R. Voorhorst) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 14:47:56 +0100 Subject: [HECnet] VAX/VMS 3.0 Distribution Available for Download --> boot on Vax8600/50 Message-ID: <004a01d5ff87$53d4a3d0$fb7deb70$@swabhawat.com> Boot on Vax8600: HK0: 'F:\Shares\Distribution\VMS\Vms_30\VAXVMSV3.0-26APR1982\vmsv30.rk07' Contains ODS2 File system HK0: Volume Name: VAXVMSRL3 Format: DECFILE11B Sectors In Volume: 53790 sim> b hk0 Loading boot code from internal vmb.exe %SYSBOOT-W-ECO or microcode version less than minimum required for VMS. %SYSBOOT-E-Unable to locate file SYSLOA SC.EXE HALT instruction, PC: 0000325A (CLRQ R8) sim> So some work to do or not (very well) possible. So it will run on Vax11/780 the original workhorse from then. Somewhere a Decnet-3.0 around for Vms to make it complete? Best regards, R.V. -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Paul Birkel Sent: Saturday, 21 March, 2020 13:56 To: 'Ray Jewhurst' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' ; hecnet at update.uu.se Cc: 'simh' ; 'John Dundas' Subject: RE: [HECnet] VAX/VMS 3.0 Distribution Available for Download According to the Release Notes it works on the 11/750 and 11/730 as well. See: AA-D015D-TE https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_decvaxvms3leaseNotesV3.0May82_5458871/mode/2up -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ray Jewhurst via cctalk Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2020 8:34 AM To: hecnet at update.uu.se Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; simh; John Dundas Subject: Re: [HECnet] VAX/VMS 3.0 Distribution Available for Download >From 1982 I see. I know that this will run on the 780/785 but what about the other VAX-11s or the 8600? I am purely a simulator and have never used the real thing and I am not sure what years the models in question were released. Sorry if my questions seem ignorant. Ray On Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 8:08 AM Supratim Sanyal wrote: > John Dundas' distribution of VAX/VMS version 3.0 (April 1982) can now > be downloaded from my Dropbox. > > The SYSTEM password is MANAGER. > > Note: Dropbox does not force you to create an account, if you look > carefully you will see a "Continue to view" link at the bottom of that > pop-up. > > Here's what it boots into: > > > VAX/VMS Version V3.0 26-APR-1982 16:21 > > > PLEASE ENTER DATE AND TIME (DD-MMM-YYYY HH:MM) 21-MAR-2020 11:58 > %JBC-I-NEWQUEUE, new queue file created %OPCOM, 21-MAR-2020 > 11:58:34.51, logfile initialized by operator OPA0 > logfile is SYS$MANAGER:OPERATOR.LOG > Login quotas - Interactive limit=64, Current interactive value=0 > SYSTEM job terminated at 21-MAR-2020 11:58:39.91 > > Username: SYSTEM > Password: > Welcome to VAX/VMS version V3.0 $ $ > > Grab it from https://bit.ly/vaxvms30 > > Regards, > Supratim > > -- > Supratim Sanyal, W1XMT > 39.19151 N, 77.23432 W > QCOCAL::SANYAL via HECnet > > From R.Voorhorst at swabhawat.com Sat Mar 21 09:20:03 2020 From: R.Voorhorst at swabhawat.com (R. Voorhorst) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 15:20:03 +0100 Subject: [HECnet] VAX/VMS 3.0 Distribution Available for Download --> Decnet Message-ID: <005401d5ff8b$d02c2a30$70847e90$@swabhawat.com> It looks there is some decnet on the disk. Exec list gives phase-III router: $ mc ncp NCP>show exec char Node Volatile Characteristics as of 21-MAR-2020 15:16:42 Executor node = 0 Identification = DECnet-VAX V3.0, VMS V3.0 Management version = V3.0.0 Incoming timer = 45 Outgoing timer = 45 NSP version = V3.2.0 Maximum links = 32 Delay factor = 64 Delay weight = 2 Inactivity timer = 60 Retransmit factor = 10 Routing version = V1.3.0 Type = routing Routing timer = 600 Maximum address = 1 Maximum circuits = 0 Maximum cost = 1023 Maximum hops = 31 Maximum visits = 63 Maximum buffers = 2 Buffer size = 1000 Default access = incoming and outgoing So ..... playtime ....? R.V. -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of R. Voorhorst Sent: Saturday, 21 March, 2020 14:48 To: hecnet at Update.UU.SE; 'Ray Jewhurst' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Cc: 'simh' ; 'John Dundas' Subject: RE: [HECnet] VAX/VMS 3.0 Distribution Available for Download --> boot on Vax8600/50 Boot on Vax8600: HK0: 'F:\Shares\Distribution\VMS\Vms_30\VAXVMSV3.0-26APR1982\vmsv30.rk07' Contains ODS2 File system HK0: Volume Name: VAXVMSRL3 Format: DECFILE11B Sectors In Volume: 53790 sim> b hk0 Loading boot code from internal vmb.exe %SYSBOOT-W-ECO or microcode version less than minimum required for VMS. %SYSBOOT-E-Unable to locate file SYSLOA SC.EXE HALT instruction, PC: 0000325A (CLRQ R8) sim> So some work to do or not (very well) possible. So it will run on Vax11/780 the original workhorse from then. Somewhere a Decnet-3.0 around for Vms to make it complete? Best regards, R.V. -----Original Message----- From: owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] On Behalf Of Paul Birkel Sent: Saturday, 21 March, 2020 13:56 To: 'Ray Jewhurst' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' ; hecnet at update.uu.se Cc: 'simh' ; 'John Dundas' Subject: RE: [HECnet] VAX/VMS 3.0 Distribution Available for Download According to the Release Notes it works on the 11/750 and 11/730 as well. See: AA-D015D-TE https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_decvaxvms3leaseNotesV3.0May82_5458871/mode/2up -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ray Jewhurst via cctalk Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2020 8:34 AM To: hecnet at update.uu.se Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; simh; John Dundas Subject: Re: [HECnet] VAX/VMS 3.0 Distribution Available for Download >From 1982 I see. I know that this will run on the 780/785 but what about the other VAX-11s or the 8600? I am purely a simulator and have never used the real thing and I am not sure what years the models in question were released. Sorry if my questions seem ignorant. Ray On Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 8:08 AM Supratim Sanyal wrote: > John Dundas' distribution of VAX/VMS version 3.0 (April 1982) can now > be downloaded from my Dropbox. > > The SYSTEM password is MANAGER. > > Note: Dropbox does not force you to create an account, if you look > carefully you will see a "Continue to view" link at the bottom of that > pop-up. > > Here's what it boots into: > > > VAX/VMS Version V3.0 26-APR-1982 16:21 > > > PLEASE ENTER DATE AND TIME (DD-MMM-YYYY HH:MM) 21-MAR-2020 11:58 > %JBC-I-NEWQUEUE, new queue file created %OPCOM, 21-MAR-2020 > 11:58:34.51, logfile initialized by operator OPA0 > logfile is SYS$MANAGER:OPERATOR.LOG > Login quotas - Interactive limit=64, Current interactive value=0 > SYSTEM job terminated at 21-MAR-2020 11:58:39.91 > > Username: SYSTEM > Password: > Welcome to VAX/VMS version V3.0 $ $ > > Grab it from https://bit.ly/vaxvms30 > > Regards, > Supratim > > -- > Supratim Sanyal, W1XMT > 39.19151 N, 77.23432 W > QCOCAL::SANYAL via HECnet > > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Mar 22 07:59:13 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 08:59:13 -0400 Subject: VAX/VMS 3.0 Distribution Available for Download In-Reply-To: References: <0fdf22bd-b560-0f77-18d5-b390acad91aa@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 3/21/20 9:41 PM, Nemo Nusquam via cctalk wrote: > On 03/21/20 20:39, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: >> On 21/03/2020 21:43, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: >>> >>>> The SYSTEM password is MANAGER. >>> Just like the old days. >> >> >> Times were different then :-) >> >> >> Wasn't the FIELD account password SERVICE? > > I recall when a DEC FE came a day early and he was quite put out because > we had changed all the defaults. > Back in the days when VMS was still relevant enough for people to care, changing all those passwords was one of the first things on the DISA STIGs for VMS. When I did my tour at DISA it was interesting how many places were found to have not changed them. bill From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sun Mar 22 10:20:20 2020 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 15:20:20 +0000 Subject: [HECnet] VAX/VMS 3.0 Distribution Available for Download --> boot on Vax8600/50 In-Reply-To: <004a01d5ff87$53d4a3d0$fb7deb70$@swabhawat.com> References: <004a01d5ff87$53d4a3d0$fb7deb70$@swabhawat.com> Message-ID: <1633ddf8-78ad-fdac-6591-2fd0dd486842@ntlworld.com> On 21/03/2020 13:47, R. Voorhorst via cctalk wrote: > Boot on Vax8600: > > HK0: 'F:\Shares\Distribution\VMS\Vms_30\VAXVMSV3.0-26APR1982\vmsv30.rk07' Contains ODS2 File system > HK0: Volume Name: VAXVMSRL3 Format: DECFILE11B Sectors In Volume: 53790 > sim> b hk0 > Loading boot code from internal vmb.exe > > %SYSBOOT-W-ECO or microcode version less than minimum required for VMS. > %SYSBOOT-E-Unable to locate file SYSLOA > SC.EXE > HALT instruction, PC: 0000325A (CLRQ R8) > sim> > > So some work to do or not (very well) possible. > > So it will run on Vax11/780 the original workhorse from then. > Somewhere a Decnet-3.0 around for Vms to make it complete? > > Best regards, > R.V. A missing SYSLOA usually means you've tried to boot on hardware that the release doesn;t know about. Venus needs VAX/VMS V4.0. https://gunkies.org/wiki/VAX_8600 So VAX-11/780, VAX-11/750, VAX-11730 and VAX-11/725 is the most you can do with this. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Mar 22 12:22:05 2020 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 10:22:05 -0700 Subject: [HECnet] VAX/VMS 3.0 Distribution Available for Download --> Decnet In-Reply-To: <005401d5ff8b$d02c2a30$70847e90$@swabhawat.com> References: <005401d5ff8b$d02c2a30$70847e90$@swabhawat.com> Message-ID: <7B3092E7-8ADE-441D-9EDB-64266CFF91E0@nf6x.net> > On Mar 21, 2020, at 7:20 AM, R. Voorhorst via cctalk wrote: > > It looks there is some decnet on the disk. > Exec list gives phase-III router: Which VMS release introduced DECnet Phase IV? -- Mark J. Blair http://www.nf6x.net/ From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Sun Mar 22 14:24:48 2020 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 19:24:48 +0000 Subject: [HECnet] VAX/VMS 3.0 Distribution Available for Download --> Decnet In-Reply-To: <7B3092E7-8ADE-441D-9EDB-64266CFF91E0@nf6x.net> References: <005401d5ff8b$d02c2a30$70847e90$@swabhawat.com> <7B3092E7-8ADE-441D-9EDB-64266CFF91E0@nf6x.net> Message-ID: > On Mar 22, 2020, at 6:22 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > > Which VMS release introduced DECnet Phase IV? > 4.0 From djg at pdp8online.com Sun Mar 22 21:29:00 2020 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 22:29:00 -0400 Subject: ISO earl TI DSP kits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200323022900.GA5526@hugin3> Until they are up on bitsavers you can get them from here. http://www.pdp8online.com/misc/TMS320_TMS340.zip On Sun, Mar 08, 2020 at 01:04:41PM -0400, emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2020-03-07 14:38, David Gesswein via cctalk wrote: > > > I found around 70 disks for the TMS320C30 and TMS340x0. I can read these > > Let me know your current desires for archiving such as IMD or files, text label > > info or disk pictures etc. Do you want the TMS340 graphics processor disk > > images also? > > Please share those ... > > > > ------------------------------ From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Mar 23 08:56:42 2020 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 09:56:42 -0400 Subject: Vaxstation 400/90 power supply Message-ID: Hi all, I have 4000/90 which behaves funny. It only starts, after switching on twice. The first time, all LEDs stay on, flipping the switch off/on, it boots happily. Any insight? THANKS! From philmac750 at virginmedia.com Mon Mar 23 03:56:00 2020 From: philmac750 at virginmedia.com (philmac750) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 08:56:00 +0000 Subject: Getting rid of dec writer II pdp11/83 vt320s Message-ID: <20200323085604.B52754E7AB@mx2.ezwind.net> Hello all, I hope you are all staying safe and healthy in current times.? Forgive the cold email, I got your email addresses as collectors of DEC computer history.?The reason for email is that I am clearing out some of my stuff as we are thinking of moving house, I live in Wakefield.?In February 2019 I salvaged a PDP11 which was used in a simulator for a coal fired power station steam turbine unit at DRAX Power Station, where I was working as a contractor up until Dec 2019.In the same building I was also allowed to take a DecWriter II, some manuals and a couple of VT320s with some other smaller hand held kit.?I have supporting documentation from the power station to state that these items are now mine.?They were all in working order as the simulator was last powered up in Nov 2019.? I am not in a position to power up the PDP 11 at home, but have plugged in the VT320s and the DEC Writer and they all work.? The dec Writer has 1 sticky key, and has the original product/shipping notice stuck inside the unit dated 1977 !! I even bought some new ink and ribbons, as my intention was to get these and the PDP11 setup and working in my office.? I used the Dec Writer in school, many many years ago, my first introduction to computers, paper tape and punched cards, a foam modem through to the college from my secondary school ! (Fortran IV)?I simply could not let these items go to scrap, which is where they were heading, so I approached the manager of the building at Drax and agreed to remove these items from site at zero cost to Drax.? The entire simulator, all it?s hand built boards and electronics were simply heading for the skip as they were demolishing the entire training centre in favour of new Gas turbine plant.? ?I am wondering if you know any forums or contacts that might be interested in purchasing these items, I am not asking silly money as these need to go to a collector and preserved, the issue will be shipping or I might even transport them myself, as they are extremely heavy items.?If not, I will google a little more and failing that, contact a UK museum to see if they would be interested in these historic pieces.?Thank you for reading.?PhilSent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. From mark.darvill at mac.com Mon Mar 23 14:46:16 2020 From: mark.darvill at mac.com (Mark Darvill) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 19:46:16 +0000 Subject: Getting rid of dec writer II pdp11/83 vt320s In-Reply-To: <20200323085604.B52754E7AB@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <20200323085604.B52754E7AB@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <8E5C5201-6B6D-4E48-B9F5-19DE4F0751B0@mac.com> Hi Phil, Very interested, I worked on a similar system at the Didcot coal fired power station that has now been flattened when I worked at DEC. Is the PDP part of the bundle as well if so very interested. I am in the UK. Mark Sent from my iPhone > On 23 Mar 2020, at 19:34, philmac750 via cctech wrote: > > ?Hello all, I hope you are all staying safe and healthy in current times. Forgive the cold email, I got your email addresses as collectors of DEC computer history. The reason for email is that I am clearing out some of my stuff as we are thinking of moving house, I live in Wakefield. In February 2019 I salvaged a PDP11 which was used in a simulator for a coal fired power station steam turbine unit at DRAX Power Station, where I was working as a contractor up until Dec 2019.In the same building I was also allowed to take a DecWriter II, some manuals and a couple of VT320s with some other smaller hand held kit. I have supporting documentation from the power station to state that these items are now mine. They were all in working order as the simulator was last powered up in Nov 2019. I am not in a position to power up the PDP 11 at home, but have plugged in the VT320s and the DEC Writer and they all work. The dec Writer has 1 sticky key, and has the original product/shipping notice stuck inside the unit dated 1977 !! I even bought some new ink and ribbons, as my intention was to get these and the PDP11 setup and working in my office. I used the Dec Writer in school, many many years ago, my first introduction to computers, paper tape and punched cards, a foam modem through to the college from my secondary school ! (Fortran IV) I simply could not let these items go to scrap, which is where they were heading, so I approached the manager of the building at Drax and agreed to remove these items from site at zero cost to Drax. The entire simulator, all it?s hand built boards and electronics were simply heading for the skip as they were demolishing the entire training centre in favour of new Gas turbine plant. I am wondering if you know any forums or contacts that might be interested in purchasing these items, I am not asking silly money as these need to go to a collector and preserved, the issue will be shipping or I might even transport them myself, as they are extremely heavy items. If not, I will google a little more and failing that, contact a UK museum to see if they would be interested in these historic pieces. Thank you for reading. PhilSent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. From mark.darvill at mac.com Mon Mar 23 14:46:16 2020 From: mark.darvill at mac.com (Mark Darvill) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 19:46:16 +0000 Subject: Getting rid of dec writer II pdp11/83 vt320s In-Reply-To: <20200323085604.B52754E7AB@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <20200323085604.B52754E7AB@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <8E5C5201-6B6D-4E48-B9F5-19DE4F0751B0@mac.com> Hi Phil, Very interested, I worked on a similar system at the Didcot coal fired power station that has now been flattened when I worked at DEC. Is the PDP part of the bundle as well if so very interested. I am in the UK. Mark Sent from my iPhone > On 23 Mar 2020, at 19:34, philmac750 via cctech wrote: > > ?Hello all, I hope you are all staying safe and healthy in current times. Forgive the cold email, I got your email addresses as collectors of DEC computer history. The reason for email is that I am clearing out some of my stuff as we are thinking of moving house, I live in Wakefield. In February 2019 I salvaged a PDP11 which was used in a simulator for a coal fired power station steam turbine unit at DRAX Power Station, where I was working as a contractor up until Dec 2019.In the same building I was also allowed to take a DecWriter II, some manuals and a couple of VT320s with some other smaller hand held kit. I have supporting documentation from the power station to state that these items are now mine. They were all in working order as the simulator was last powered up in Nov 2019. I am not in a position to power up the PDP 11 at home, but have plugged in the VT320s and the DEC Writer and they all work. The dec Writer has 1 sticky key, and has the original product/shipping notice stuck inside the unit dated 1977 !! I even bought some new ink and ribbons, as my intention was to get these and the PDP11 setup and working in my office. I used the Dec Writer in school, many many years ago, my first introduction to computers, paper tape and punched cards, a foam modem through to the college from my secondary school ! (Fortran IV) I simply could not let these items go to scrap, which is where they were heading, so I approached the manager of the building at Drax and agreed to remove these items from site at zero cost to Drax. The entire simulator, all it?s hand built boards and electronics were simply heading for the skip as they were demolishing the entire training centre in favour of new Gas turbine plant. I am wondering if you know any forums or contacts that might be interested in purchasing these items, I am not asking silly money as these need to go to a collector and preserved, the issue will be shipping or I might even transport them myself, as they are extremely heavy items. If not, I will google a little more and failing that, contact a UK museum to see if they would be interested in these historic pieces. Thank you for reading. PhilSent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. From bhilpert at shaw.ca Mon Mar 23 15:03:51 2020 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 13:03:51 -0700 Subject: Vaxstation 400/90 power supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020-Mar-23, at 6:56 AM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > I have 4000/90 which behaves funny. It only starts, after switching on > twice. The first time, all LEDs stay on, flipping the switch off/on, it > boots happily. > > Any insight? I've experienced behaviour like this in an Apple-something. It related to a dead RTC/boot-ROM battery. I figured it out (years ago) but now forget the exact mechanistics, but it was along the lines of the first power-on leaves enough charge in a capacitor for the subsequent power-on to see the RTC/ROM as at least 'valid', albeit not 'correct', if you get my drift. That's just a suggestion/possibility - I'm not acquainted with the 4000/90 specifically. From macro at linux-mips.org Mon Mar 23 17:56:08 2020 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 22:56:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Vaxstation 400/90 power supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Mar 2020, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > > I have 4000/90 which behaves funny. It only starts, after switching on > > twice. The first time, all LEDs stay on, flipping the switch off/on, it > > boots happily. [...] > I've experienced behaviour like this in an Apple-something. > It related to a dead RTC/boot-ROM battery. I figured it out (years ago) > but now forget the exact mechanistics, but it was along the lines of the > first power-on leaves enough charge in a capacitor for the subsequent > power-on to see the RTC/ROM as at least 'valid', albeit not 'correct', > if you get my drift. > > That's just a suggestion/possibility - I'm not acquainted with the > 4000/90 specifically. A correlation with an expired DS1287A chip seems plausible, though not fully verified. I have a 4000/90 that seemed dead having been stored alive and left unused for a prolonged period. The symptom were all LEDs steady lit after power-up, as if the CPU has failed to execute any instructions after coming out of reset. Multiple consecutive power-ups didn't help. The 4000/90 has a couple of potential reasons as to why its CPU would not start executing: - a broken CPU (obviously) or chipset, - flash ROM corruption (with no write-protection provided regrettably all too easy to happen), - bitfile ROM corruption (used with the CEAC and SQWF FPGAs in the /90 only; replaced with ASICs and the ROM removed in the /90A and the /96), - power-good signal not asserted by the PSU. NB the LED latches sit on EDAL (as does the DS1287A), so if the CEAC FPGA does not come up they won't budge even if the CPU executes from main flash ROM. If I were to believe documentation, I'd expect the very first couple of instructions executed from the reset vector to poke at the LEDs rather than the DS1287A to indicate execution has started, but I haven't actually looked at the code there (I should have!). I didn't therefore consider the DS1287A, especially as it was already dead in that machine before it was left to sit. It appears to make a difference however whether the DS1287A has been only discharged enough not to keep the contents across a power down or whether it has been indeed deeply discharged (the chip obviously continues to suck power from its lithium cell even past the point it cannot hold contents from anymore). I experimented with replacing the chip with a couple of spares, but it didn't help. Frustrated I put the machine aside and left it untouched for a couple of months. I came back to it once again, disassembled, reassembled, disassembled again and verified the tantalum capacitors in-circuit (all measured fine) replaced the PSU, replaced the DS1287A a couple of times again, and then suddenly with one of the replacement DS1287A chips it started to work. I tried the chips that didn't again and oddly the machine continued to work, and kept working on many occasions for a couple of years more until I last checked it sometime last year. Hopefully it still does (and I plan to replace the DS1287A once expired with one of my reworked chips as shown here: ; so far I only did the replacement with a couple of DECstation 5000 systems), however I cannot verify that now due to the current chaos in Europe making travel impossible and keeping me away. I need to warn you too that the H7819 PSU the 4000/90 uses also suffers from the quaternary ammonium salt system issue with some capacitors used, so it's at risk of developing catastrophic leaks (I don't remember offhand if the capacitors are safely upside down as in the H7821, and I can't easily check right now; I highly suspect it is the case though, so try keeping the machine in the right position while in storage). Furthermore much of the contents of this PSU has been treated with hot melt, making any diagnosis or repair a real pain. I would recommend examining the PSU just in case anyway. It might be on the verge of giving the power-good signal. I realise I may have added confusion rather than helped, but at least there may be hints as to the causes for odd behaviour and a hope for full recovery. Maciej From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Mar 24 01:58:04 2020 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 02:58:04 -0400 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <9CCE9B978F7C964097645E1FC2BC99DD20C318@mail.wiz.local> <6ffb835b-1345-d61d-ba22-ae7dc83294ba@thereinhardts.org> <84140a54-334c-e3b0-fb78-2b003e14c726@thereinhardts.org> <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> <21c6de50-c671-20c3-725d-aaa11347020e@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <547c6f17-2883-6406-940b-9068ad3b8905@e-bbes.com> On 2020-03-10 09:47, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: ? >> Like all large US corporations they are dollar driven > > Any business that is not dollar driven will soon be out of business. > Making money is what businesses do.? Sadly, that seems to be another > idea that has fallen by the wayside in the US, like trust and risk. > > bill Hello Bill, I recommend: https://www.amazon.com/Built-Last-Successful-Visionary-Essentials/dp/0060516402 Makes a nice reading ;-) From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Tue Mar 24 04:08:41 2020 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 10:08:41 +0100 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: References: <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> <20200310094850.GA30101@mooli.org.uk> <20200310154431.6m3aft2vftuu7htw@lug-owl.de> <20200320212846.wz7ji66nnckdtxxs@lug-owl.de> <002c01d5ff0b$16a08780$43e19680$@ntlworld.com> <20200321083448.znzsy3pnqk6yhgyp@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <5586e735f725732e7ad00c24a6b37752033a50c7.camel@agj.net> l?r 2020-03-21 klockan 14:44 +0000 skrev Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk: > On Sat, 21 Mar 2020, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > > > > Not a question for me, but for the record I have used a WTI > > > remote site > > > manager, essentially a combined power distribution and terminal > > > server > > > unit, for 5 years now. > > > > That's this product line, itn's it? > > > > https://www.wti.com/c-93-cpm-800-2-series-console-server-power-control-combos.aspx > > It is, however 5 years ago the choice was different and much smaller > (in > this category). They have since switched from Freescale Power to ARM > as > the hardware platform, and presumably still use Linux with a custom > app to > drive it. > > Control CLI access is over SSHv2 over IPv4/IPv6; likewise serial > port > access (both ways). Per-port and per-plug user accounts can be > created. > There's also control HTTPS and I believe telnet access available, but > who > needs that? Of course both can be disabled. telnet ? that is very much indeed useful if someone wants to run a pure old school desktop while managing ! From doug at doughq.com Tue Mar 24 05:18:30 2020 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 21:18:30 +1100 Subject: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing In-Reply-To: <5586e735f725732e7ad00c24a6b37752033a50c7.camel@agj.net> References: <069F9207-33B8-4580-A94F-C286D2815C24@eschatologist.net> <20200310094850.GA30101@mooli.org.uk> <20200310154431.6m3aft2vftuu7htw@lug-owl.de> <20200320212846.wz7ji66nnckdtxxs@lug-owl.de> <002c01d5ff0b$16a08780$43e19680$@ntlworld.com> <20200321083448.znzsy3pnqk6yhgyp@lug-owl.de> <5586e735f725732e7ad00c24a6b37752033a50c7.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: 'telnet ? that is very much indeed useful if someone wants to run a pure old school desktop while managing !' He he... Of course it should be said that that old gear using Telnet shouldn't be connected to the wider internet. It's kind of funny when a kid in Sydney discovers he can turn off a city block in Melbourne.... Its frightening what I've learnt as a security guy working in control and data acquisition gear (SCADA) for various utility companies.... In a very Not Funny way... Doug On Tue, 24 Mar. 2020, 8:08 pm Stefan Skoglund via cctalk, < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > l?r 2020-03-21 klockan 14:44 +0000 skrev Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk: > > On Sat, 21 Mar 2020, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > > > > > > Not a question for me, but for the record I have used a WTI > > > > remote site > > > > manager, essentially a combined power distribution and terminal > > > > server > > > > unit, for 5 years now. > > > > > > That's this product line, itn's it? > > > > > > > https://www.wti.com/c-93-cpm-800-2-series-console-server-power-control-combos.aspx > > > > It is, however 5 years ago the choice was different and much smaller > > (in > > this category). They have since switched from Freescale Power to ARM > > as > > the hardware platform, and presumably still use Linux with a custom > > app to > > drive it. > > > > Control CLI access is over SSHv2 over IPv4/IPv6; likewise serial > > port > > access (both ways). Per-port and per-plug user accounts can be > > created. > > There's also control HTTPS and I believe telnet access available, but > > who > > needs that? Of course both can be disabled. > > telnet ? that is very much indeed useful if someone wants to run a pure > old school desktop while managing ! > > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Mar 24 09:54:10 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 10:54:10 -0400 Subject: Prime 50-Series emulator announcement In-Reply-To: <20200318235135.E900125D928@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20200316182952.0429225C6FC@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200316180149.GA6369@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311154127.668D525A83A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200313153644.A702A25B4CE@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200318235135.E900125D928@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On 3/18/20 7:51 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > I've uploaded an updated set of sample system images. Jim worked > through rebuilding the disk files with more filesystem and paging space, > and we enhanced the run script wrapper a bit. There are also a couple > of help text tweaks, system startup fixes, etc. > > The tarball is 142882727 bytes, and its sha256sum is > 32647dbcc3a0d541209eafc2f78d054e456d58046c9b3c5bc4ca64a8d9fc0037. > Dennis, Is there anywhere we can find a list of what is avaiable on each of those images? I tried a few and at least one has all the compilers but no emacs. Another has emacs but apparently no compilers. :-) I'm impressed so far but would really like to find systems that I can do some real programming on. Is it possible for someone to build a Rev 24 image with everything on it? My last real work with Primos was during the move from Rev 19 to Rev 20. I am amazed at how much I have forgotten and really regret having gotten rid of all my documentation (at least I think I did, I suppose it is possible there is still a box in the attic full of Prime manuals including my course books from the internals class!) One other one that I should know but forgot is how to add a user. Would be nice to set it up properly before I start loading programs on it. A lot of languages were available on Prime that you don't see much anymore and Rosetta Code is just crying out for more examples. bill From drb at msu.edu Tue Mar 24 12:25:55 2020 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 13:25:55 -0400 Subject: Prime 50-Series emulator announcement In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 24 Mar 2020 10:54:10 -0400.) References: <20200316182952.0429225C6FC@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200316180149.GA6369@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311154127.668D525A83A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200313153644.A702A25B4CE@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200318235135.E900125D928@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20200324172556.0AB622B14E4@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Bill, > Is there anywhere we can find a list of what is avaiable on each of > those images? I tried a few and at least one has all the compilers > but no emacs. Another has emacs but apparently no compilers. :-) > I'm impressed so far but would really like to find systems that I can > do some real programming on. Is it possible for someone to build a > Rev 24 image with everything on it? There's not a list of what's on each image. I'll think about creating one. Recall that the layered products tended to be related to the version of the base OS. Sometimes you could use an older version on a newer PRIMOS, sometimes not. Since the ones we have came with specific distribution tape sets, or from backups of specific machines, and basically nobody just had everything Prime sold, the systems we can build are "uneven". The largest collections of layered products in captivity are for 19, 22 and 23. I think the only copy of INFORMATION is on 21. Etc. There are incomplete source sets for 19 and 22. We're in the process of revamping the 19.2 sample system to have the source for the kernel it's running baked in. > My last real work with Primos was during the move from Rev 19 to Rev > 20. I am amazed at how much I have forgotten and really regret > having gotten rid of all my documentation (at least I think I did, I > suppose it is possible there is still a box in the attic full of > Prime manuals including my course books from the internals class!) I've had to refresh a few things, but I'm amazed at how many details are still in my head. There's a lot of new stuff post-20, too. I know I ended up with some of your manuals. Lots of scanned manuals at sysovl.info in PDF form, if you can live with that. A couple versions of the internals class manual are there. I'm still moving stuff into that site, so if there's something specific you need, let me know and I'll see if I can help. > One other one that I should know but forgot is how to add a user. > Would be nice to set it up properly before I start loading programs > on it. You do that with EDIT_PROFILE. Make sure the priority ACL is set (I think that's being done at boot), and run it from the console. De From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Mar 24 12:37:44 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 13:37:44 -0400 Subject: Prime 50-Series emulator announcement In-Reply-To: <20200324172556.0AB622B14E4@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20200316182952.0429225C6FC@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200316180149.GA6369@RawFedDogs.net> <20200311154127.668D525A83A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200313153644.A702A25B4CE@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200318235135.E900125D928@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20200324172556.0AB622B14E4@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On 3/24/20 1:25 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > Bill, > > > Is there anywhere we can find a list of what is avaiable on each of > > those images? I tried a few and at least one has all the compilers > > but no emacs. Another has emacs but apparently no compilers. :-) > > > I'm impressed so far but would really like to find systems that I can > > do some real programming on. Is it possible for someone to build a > > Rev 24 image with everything on it? > > There's not a list of what's on each image. I'll think about creating > one. > > Recall that the layered products tended to be related to the version of > the base OS. Sometimes you could use an older version on a newer > PRIMOS, sometimes not. Since the ones we have came with specific > distribution tape sets, or from backups of specific machines, and > basically nobody just had everything Prime sold, the systems we can > build are "uneven". The largest collections of layered products in > captivity are for 19, 22 and 23. I think the only copy of INFORMATION > is on 21. Etc. I'll just have to start all of them and see which have the fullest set of compilers. :-) Maybe have to find a version of emacs that is publicly available that will build on Primos. :-) I wonder if anyone has a copy of the sources for EDV? that was our common editor when I did this for a living. It was a very good full screen editor and was written in Fortran (with calls to some low level Primos stuff for the single character input and such). > > There are incomplete source sets for 19 and 22. We're in the process of > revamping the 19.2 sample system to have the source for the kernel it's > running baked in. Ah... Sources. That was my ballywick back in those days. Maintaining the OS and layered products for a cluster of 850's at West Point. Those were the days. > > > My last real work with Primos was during the move from Rev 19 to Rev > > 20. I am amazed at how much I have forgotten and really regret > > having gotten rid of all my documentation (at least I think I did, I > > suppose it is possible there is still a box in the attic full of > > Prime manuals including my course books from the internals class!) > > I've had to refresh a few things, but I'm amazed at how many details are > still in my head. There's a lot of new stuff post-20, too. I barely touched 20 saw nothing beyond that. > > I know I ended up with some of your manuals. Lots of scanned manuals at > sysovl.info in PDF form, if you can live with that. A couple versions > of the internals class manual are there. Well, I guess I don't need to go looking in the attic then. :-) I think I was the only one who took the class that actually kept the manual, which is how I ended out with more than one copy. :-) > > I'm still moving stuff into that site, so if there's something specific > you need, let me know and I'll see if I can help. I would say that the biggest help other than compilers would be EMACS. I may actually still have the Prime EMACS Manual. I think I kept that because I use EMACS on other systems, too and it was a good manual. > > > One other one that I should know but forgot is how to add a user. > > Would be nice to set it up properly before I start loading programs > > on it. > > You do that with EDIT_PROFILE. Make sure the priority ACL is set (I > think that's being done at boot), and run it from the console. Thank you. That stuck in my head but reading the pocket guides I still have didn't refresh it for me. bill From chris at groessler.org Tue Mar 24 12:47:47 2020 From: chris at groessler.org (Christian Groessler) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 18:47:47 +0100 Subject: Unable to download Dave Dunfield's ImageDisk Message-ID: <3419fb77-c712-9b02-d258-900f61b4b641@groessler.org> Hi, the link on http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm for "ImageDisk 1.18" doesn't work. Apparently most (or all) links on this page don't work. Where can I get the latest ImageDisk version? regards, chris From grumpyx at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 12:53:20 2020 From: grumpyx at gmail.com (Grumpyx) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 13:53:20 -0400 Subject: Unable to download Dave Dunfield's ImageDisk In-Reply-To: <3419fb77-c712-9b02-d258-900f61b4b641@groessler.org> References: <3419fb77-c712-9b02-d258-900f61b4b641@groessler.org> Message-ID: Here's the link from the internet archive that works: https://web.archive.org/web/20190703051651/http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img54306/imd118.zip On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 1:47 PM Christian Groessler via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi, > > the link on http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm for > "ImageDisk 1.18" doesn't work. Apparently most (or all) links on this > page don't work. > > Where can I get the latest ImageDisk version? > > regards, > chris > > > From pat at vax11.net Tue Mar 24 18:14:05 2020 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 19:14:05 -0400 Subject: Unable to download Dave Dunfield's ImageDisk In-Reply-To: <3419fb77-c712-9b02-d258-900f61b4b641@groessler.org> References: <3419fb77-c712-9b02-d258-900f61b4b641@groessler.org> Message-ID: It looks like the magic that updates the 5-digit number in the URL doesn't work after the classiccmp.org recovery. Try: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img54306/imd118.zip The rest of the things should be in the same directory. Pat On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 1:47 PM Christian Groessler via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi, > > the link on http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm for > "ImageDisk 1.18" doesn't work. Apparently most (or all) links on this > page don't work. > > Where can I get the latest ImageDisk version? > > regards, > chris > > > From chris at groessler.org Wed Mar 25 03:54:44 2020 From: chris at groessler.org (Christian Groessler) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 09:54:44 +0100 Subject: Unable to download Dave Dunfield's ImageDisk In-Reply-To: References: <3419fb77-c712-9b02-d258-900f61b4b641@groessler.org> Message-ID: Thanks. That worked. regards, chris On 2020-03-25 00:14, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > It looks like the magic that updates the 5-digit number in the URL > doesn't work after the classiccmp.org > recovery.? Try: > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img54306/imd118.zip > > The rest of the things should be in the same directory. > > Pat > > On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 1:47 PM Christian Groessler via cctalk > > wrote: > > Hi, > > the link on http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm for > "ImageDisk 1.18" doesn't work. Apparently most (or all) links on this > page don't work. > > Where can I get the latest ImageDisk version? > > regards, > chris > > From dave.dunfield at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 06:47:08 2020 From: dave.dunfield at gmail.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 07:47:08 -0400 Subject: Unable to download Dave Dunfield's ImageDisk Message-ID: >Patrick Finnegan pat at vax11.net Tue Mar 24 18:14:05 CDT 2020 > >It looks like the magic that updates the 5-digit number in the URL doesn't >work after the classiccmp.org recovery. Try: >http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img54306/imd118.zip > >The rest of the things should be in the same directory. >>On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 1:47 PM Christian Groessler >> Hi, >> >> the link on http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm for >> "ImageDisk 1.18" doesn't work. Apparently most (or all) links on this >> page don't work. The "magic" is me, it has nothing to do with the classiccmo recovery. The links are something I update manually from time to time, and I've recently updated some pages to correct links to my now expired commercial site, and failed to amend these with the current transient page. Should be fixed now - may have to refresh your browser if It cached the bad links. Dave From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Mar 25 07:45:34 2020 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 08:45:34 -0400 Subject: Vaxstation 400/90 power supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020-03-23 18:56, Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk wrote: > [ ... ] > I realise I may have added confusion rather than helped, but at least > there may be hints as to the causes for odd behaviour and a hope for full > recovery. > > Maciej > Hello Maciej, no, no confusion, and thanks for the detailed analysis. Now I have to find my dremel (I just moved) and check the Dallas NVRAM ;-) Cheers & thanks again! From matt at 9track.net Wed Mar 25 09:02:07 2020 From: matt at 9track.net (Matt Burke) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 14:02:07 +0000 Subject: Vaxstation 400/90 power supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <397c03ae-0058-9983-7771-e760881c420f@9track.net> On 25/03/2020 12:45, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > Hello Maciej, > no, no confusion, and thanks for the detailed analysis. Now I have to > find my dremel (I just moved) and check the Dallas NVRAM ;-) > > Cheers & thanks again! You can buy replacements for the Dallas DS1287A under a new part number - DS12887A. Matt From web at loomcom.com Wed Mar 25 11:22:50 2020 From: web at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 09:22:50 -0700 Subject: Unable to download Dave Dunfield's ImageDisk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0fc654ef-33a7-432c-a02e-5cf9d7256937@www.fastmail.com> On Wed, Mar 25, 2020, at 4:47 AM, Dave Dunfield via cctalk wrote: > > Should be fixed now - may have to refresh your browser if It cached > the bad links. > > Dave By the way, Dave, I just wanted to say thanks for ImageDisk. I use it constantly on my floppy archiving box and it's one of the most important tools in my workflow. I've even used it to realign several floppy drives with great success. I truly appreciate your work on it. All the best, -Seth -- Seth Morabito Poulsbo, WA web at loomcom.com From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Mar 25 12:24:25 2020 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 10:24:25 -0700 Subject: Unable to download Dave Dunfield's ImageDisk In-Reply-To: <0fc654ef-33a7-432c-a02e-5cf9d7256937@www.fastmail.com> References: <0fc654ef-33a7-432c-a02e-5cf9d7256937@www.fastmail.com> Message-ID: <884990CC-2899-4063-891F-654D1530533E@nf6x.net> > On Mar 25, 2020, at 9:22 AM, Seth Morabito via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 25, 2020, at 4:47 AM, Dave Dunfield via cctalk wrote: >> >> Should be fixed now - may have to refresh your browser if It cached >> the bad links. >> >> Dave > > By the way, Dave, I just wanted to say thanks for ImageDisk. I use it constantly on my floppy archiving box and it's one of the most important tools in my workflow. I've even used it to realign several floppy drives with great success. I truly appreciate your work on it. Agreed! It's great. Even when I don't use it directly, the ImageDisk file format is good for a lot of stuff I do, such as archival of non-copy-protected disks for machines like the various Tandy/Radio Shack systems in my collection. I wrote Python code for working with the .IMD files on my Mac. -- Mark J. Blair http://www.nf6x.net/ From macro at linux-mips.org Thu Mar 26 06:13:06 2020 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 11:13:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Vaxstation 400/90 power supply In-Reply-To: <397c03ae-0058-9983-7771-e760881c420f@9track.net> References: <397c03ae-0058-9983-7771-e760881c420f@9track.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Mar 2020, Matt Burke via cctalk wrote: > > no, no confusion, and thanks for the detailed analysis. Now I have to > > find my dremel (I just moved) and check the Dallas NVRAM ;-) > > > > Cheers & thanks again! > > You can buy replacements for the Dallas DS1287A under a new part number > - DS12887A. They are not exact replacements though as they have an additional address line on AD6 which is used to access extra 64 bytes of internal static RAM. For correct operation with the DS12887A rather than the DS1287A in the 4000/90 the line would have to be driven with logical 0 in the address phase of the bus cycle. I don't know if this is guaranteed by the EDAL glue logic used to drive the DS1287A (TOY in DEC-speak) chip in the 4000/90. My notes indicate that the 0x25400000:0x254000fc 32-bit longword CPU bus address range is decoded to the TOY chip in the 4000/90, and the TOY data byte is transferred on bits 9:2 of the longword accessed. Furthermore the CEAC seems to be selected with 0b001001 in bits 31:26 of the CPU bus address, that is spanning the 0x24000000:0x27ffffff address range. Bits 25:22 are then decoded by the CEAC to individual EDAL bus chip selects (some devices seem to handle multiple chip selects or, more likely, CEAC does incomplete decoding depending on the address subrange). This leaves bits 21:8 of the address undefined for the TOY chip, and it is unknown if they are actually driven, hardwired or left floating. It will depend on the glue logic involved, though given that the DS1287A has a multiplexed AD7:AD0 bus, and in the 4000/90 TOY addresses are presented on bus bits 7:2 and data is presented on bus bits 9:2 chances are bits 9:8 and consequently AD7:AD6 are also driven in the address phase. There's still question of software accessing the TOY using canonical addresses only, i.e. ones in the 0x25400000:0x254000fc range rather than say 0x25400100:0x254001fc, which likely cause AD6 to be driven with logical 1 rather than 0. Of course software could make use of that extra static RAM if accessed deliberately. As I use all my DEC equipment for OS development however I consider it reference hardware and therefore I only accept exact replacements if the original part cannot be used anymore. Since no new DS1287A (or DS1287, for DECstation 5000 systems) chips are available I resorted to reworking old chips to have the original embedded coin cell replaced with a socket for a discrete coin cell mounted such as to match the original clearance of the chip almost exactly. This is important for DECstation 5000 systems, which have the TOY chip mounted in the TURBOchannel slot area with as little as ~0.1" of clearance left with respect to option cards. I actually bought extra chips from a seller on eBay, just to have spares in case something goes wrong in the rework, knowing that they have been forged by replacing the original marking with one giving a more recent date code, one well past the last manufacture date of genuine chips, to pretend they are not as extremely old as they really are. That is quite safe for the rework however, because the way the cell has been embedded makes the marking on the original top of the case of the embedded DS1285 chip clearly readable once the cell has been completely removed. In the end one of the batches I got was good, made with the DS1285 chip, while the other one had the DS12B885 chip instead, so I had to discard it. Now I got yet another batch, but I didn't get to disassembling any of the parts yet. NB the DS12B885 doesn't exist in any datasheet I could track, however there used to be a DS12B887 chip which had a RESET# wiring modification that I think couldn't have been made by just adding a quartz crystal and a coin cell to the DS12885, so perhaps a dedicated DS12B885 core was made to satisfy that application only and never sold in a discrete form. FWIW, Maciej From rdbrown0au at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 12:10:03 2020 From: rdbrown0au at gmail.com (Rodney Brown) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 04:10:03 +1100 Subject: Fonts for Dataproducts printers? Message-ID: <8d3e10e9-7d05-771e-65ea-884d919867e0@gmail.com> In the "Dataproducts (300/600 LPM) Line Printers Maintenance Guide" (1984) at (23Mb) https://www.wang2200.org/docs/fiche/742-0432.MNL.2273LinePrinterMaintenance.85-07-19.pdf Table 1-2. 300 LPM Character Band & PROM Set Kits p. 1-10 (p. 30-31 in PDF) & Table 1-3 600 LPM .... p1-12 (p. 32-33 in PDF) List "Country/Language","Character Band Number","PROM Number"."Number of Printable Characters","Description","Font Style","Spacing" Band???????????????? Desc????????????????? Font Style 250035-019 64 Utility?? ? ? ? ?? ???? DPC-C 250042-022 96 Upper/Lower???? DPC-B/C 250045-022 96 Upper/Lower???? DPC-C 250088-039 96 ASCII/Modified? DPC-B "Number of Print..." is 64 or 96 ... except for an Arabic one "Spacing in characters per inch" is always 10, except for 4, 15 pitches "Font Style" is either DPC-B, DPC-B/C, DPC-C, DPC-15, DPC-D for Thai, Arabic Are there fonts available for the common Font Styles (DPC-B. DPC-B/C, DPC-C)? The fonts for the Dataproducts (64-char) drum printers may be in that set. It's possible that the Dataproducts laser printers may have provided the fonts, but googling hasn't shown anything, the Dataproducts website is on archive.org, and my searches showed that the Computer History Museum has a printer and a few bands. The HP2614A Drum printer we had in 1980 was probably one of those and we had band printers later. I should look through my printouts ... There's a font for the IBM 1403 http://ibm-1401.info/IBM140310Pitch-Regular.otf "Chainprinter Regular Font" at http://legionfonts.com/fonts/chainprinter-regular may be related to the IBM 1403 one too. This assumes that fonts might be useful for OCR at some stage, or for checking retyped data, or for fun on SIMH. From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Fri Mar 27 05:55:30 2020 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 10:55:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: help needed: Document scan of ISS Sperry Univac Driver Exerciser avalaible for bitsavers upload References: <1312843617.5856830.1585306530747.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1312843617.5856830.1585306530747@mail.yahoo.com> Hello list, I have a scan of a manual with schematics for a ?ISS Sperry Univac Driver Exerciser for 7330 and 843x type of disk drives that was kindly scanned and provided to me by Mark from the Computer History Archivies Project, since he and myself happen to come accross such exercisers. I contacted two times Al via email for access credentials to upload the document as I did in the past years for numerous scans, but I never got an answer. He is probably very busy during the last months. In case anybody has access for uploading documents on this list, can you contact me so that we can make this document available to everybody? Best regards, Pierre ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.digitalheritage.de From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Mar 27 07:11:59 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 05:11:59 -0700 Subject: help needed: Document scan of ISS Sperry Univac Driver Exerciser avalaible for bitsavers upload In-Reply-To: <1312843617.5856830.1585306530747@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1312843617.5856830.1585306530747.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1312843617.5856830.1585306530747@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 3/27/20 3:55 AM, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: > I contacted two times Al via email for access credentials to upload the document as I did in the past years for numerous scans, but I never got an answer. private msg sent sorry, things have been crazy From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Mar 27 11:16:04 2020 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 12:16:04 -0400 Subject: Unable to download Dave Dunfield's ImageDisk In-Reply-To: <0fc654ef-33a7-432c-a02e-5cf9d7256937@www.fastmail.com> References: <0fc654ef-33a7-432c-a02e-5cf9d7256937@www.fastmail.com> Message-ID: <025f01d60453$03ef7630$0bce6290$@verizon.net> My thanks as well. I've used it for years and have a 386 machine dedicated to running it. Bill Sudbrink -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Seth Morabito via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2020 12:23 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Unable to download Dave Dunfield's ImageDisk On Wed, Mar 25, 2020, at 4:47 AM, Dave Dunfield via cctalk wrote: > > Should be fixed now - may have to refresh your browser if It cached > the bad links. > > Dave By the way, Dave, I just wanted to say thanks for ImageDisk. I use it constantly on my floppy archiving box and it's one of the most important tools in my workflow. I've even used it to realign several floppy drives with great success. I truly appreciate your work on it. All the best, -Seth -- Seth Morabito Poulsbo, WA web at loomcom.com -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Mar 27 17:12:47 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 18:12:47 -0400 Subject: DIBOL and RPG for RSTS Message-ID: Does anyone have a .tap image of a DIBOL install tape for RSTS? And while I am at it, was there ever RPG for RSTS? I am so bored I have decided to really load up a SIMH system and just live in the past for a while. I have Fortran-IV, Fortran-77, COBOL-81 and C installed now as well as BASIC and MACRO. But I haven't had the chance to do any DIBOL or RPG for quite some time and would love to try them again. bill From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Mar 27 19:25:40 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 20:25:40 -0400 Subject: DIBOL and RPG for RSTS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Mar 27, 2020, at 6:12 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > Does anyone have a .tap image of a DIBOL install tape for RSTS? > > And while I am at it, was there ever RPG for RSTS? > > I am so bored I have decided to really load up a SIMH system > and just live in the past for a while. I have Fortran-IV, > Fortran-77, COBOL-81 and C installed now as well as BASIC and > MACRO. But I haven't had the chance to do any DIBOL or RPG > for quite some time and would love to try them again. If you want to try something entirely different, dig up the FORTH runtime system that's part of the V10.1 "unsupported" kit. It's a neat language. Still in use, in fact. paul From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Mar 27 19:42:36 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 20:42:36 -0400 Subject: DIBOL and RPG for RSTS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3/27/20 8:25 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Mar 27, 2020, at 6:12 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >> Does anyone have a .tap image of a DIBOL install tape for RSTS? >> >> And while I am at it, was there ever RPG for RSTS? >> >> I am so bored I have decided to really load up a SIMH system >> and just live in the past for a while. I have Fortran-IV, >> Fortran-77, COBOL-81 and C installed now as well as BASIC and >> MACRO. But I haven't had the chance to do any DIBOL or RPG >> for quite some time and would love to try them again. > > If you want to try something entirely different, dig up the FORTH runtime system that's part of the V10.1 "unsupported" kit. It's a neat language. Still in use, in fact. > I used that FIG FORTH package ages ago on real PDP-11's. Was never impressed with Forth so much. Only time I was impressed was when I worked with OpenPROM which was all written in Forth. Wanted to do one for the PDP-11 but lost interest when Sun gave it to IEEE and they wanted several thousand dollars just to look at it. Now I am more interested in sticking with the serious business languages that ran on the PDP-11. bill From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Mar 27 19:48:06 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 20:48:06 -0400 Subject: DIBOL and RPG for RSTS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2585C0F8-934E-45D3-986E-9780AC417603@comcast.net> > On Mar 27, 2020, at 8:42 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On 3/27/20 8:25 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> On Mar 27, 2020, at 6:12 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> Does anyone have a .tap image of a DIBOL install tape for RSTS? >>> >>> And while I am at it, was there ever RPG for RSTS? >>> >>> I am so bored I have decided to really load up a SIMH system >>> and just live in the past for a while. I have Fortran-IV, >>> Fortran-77, COBOL-81 and C installed now as well as BASIC and >>> MACRO. But I haven't had the chance to do any DIBOL or RPG >>> for quite some time and would love to try them again. >> If you want to try something entirely different, dig up the FORTH runtime system that's part of the V10.1 "unsupported" kit. It's a neat language. Still in use, in fact. > > I used that FIG FORTH package ages ago on real PDP-11's. > Was never impressed with Forth so much. Only time I was > impressed was when I worked with OpenPROM which was all > written in Forth. Wanted to do one for the PDP-11 but > lost interest when Sun gave it to IEEE and they wanted > several thousand dollars just to look at it. > > Now I am more interested in sticking with the serious > business languages that ran on the PDP-11. > > bill Ok. The RSTS Forth is more than FIG-FORTH; it adds the FORTH-83 (FORTH-79?) language standard features. I used it for several applications, the biggest by far is SDA, an interactive RSTS crash dump analyzer. 4600 lines of code... It should be in the kit. paul From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Mar 28 08:39:19 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 09:39:19 -0400 Subject: DIBOL and RPG for RSTS In-Reply-To: <2585C0F8-934E-45D3-986E-9780AC417603@comcast.net> References: <2585C0F8-934E-45D3-986E-9780AC417603@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 3/27/20 8:48 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Mar 27, 2020, at 8:42 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 3/27/20 8:25 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>>> On Mar 27, 2020, at 6:12 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>>> Does anyone have a .tap image of a DIBOL install tape for RSTS? >>>> >>>> And while I am at it, was there ever RPG for RSTS? >>>> >>>> I am so bored I have decided to really load up a SIMH system >>>> and just live in the past for a while. I have Fortran-IV, >>>> Fortran-77, COBOL-81 and C installed now as well as BASIC and >>>> MACRO. But I haven't had the chance to do any DIBOL or RPG >>>> for quite some time and would love to try them again. >>> If you want to try something entirely different, dig up the FORTH runtime system that's part of the V10.1 "unsupported" kit. It's a neat language. Still in use, in fact. >> >> I used that FIG FORTH package ages ago on real PDP-11's. >> Was never impressed with Forth so much. Only time I was >> impressed was when I worked with OpenPROM which was all >> written in Forth. Wanted to do one for the PDP-11 but >> lost interest when Sun gave it to IEEE and they wanted >> several thousand dollars just to look at it. >> >> Now I am more interested in sticking with the serious >> business languages that ran on the PDP-11. >> >> bill > > Ok. The RSTS Forth is more than FIG-FORTH; it adds the FORTH-83 (FORTH-79?) language standard features. I used it for several applications, the biggest by far is SDA, an interactive RSTS crash dump analyzer. 4600 lines of code... It should be in the kit. > I saw that FORTH was there but, as I said, FORTH didn't really interest me beyond the project I had that died on the vine thanks to the greed of the IEEE. Maybe I'll look in to that again sometime, but it would be low on my list of priorities at this point. I actually have FORTH on a number of different systems but have done little beyond comparing them. bill From decguy at songdog.eskimo.com Sat Mar 28 08:34:45 2020 From: decguy at songdog.eskimo.com (Guy N.) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 06:34:45 -0700 Subject: FORTH [was: Re: DIBOL and RPG for RSTS] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1585402485.1707.18.camel@moondog> On Fri, 2020-03-27 at 20:42 -0400, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 3/27/20 8:25 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > > If you want to try something entirely different, dig up the FORTH > runtime system that's part of the V10.1 "unsupported" kit. It's a > neat language. Still in use, in fact. > > > > I used that FIG FORTH package ages ago on real PDP-11's. > Was never impressed with Forth so much. Only time I was > impressed was when I worked with OpenPROM which was all > written in Forth. Wanted to do one for the PDP-11 but > lost interest when Sun gave it to IEEE and they wanted > several thousand dollars just to look at it. FORTH! Now that's classic. I had reached at least journeyman level with it in the 80s. It was great for hardware bringup, relatively easy to get it running and it gave you lots of power over the new hardware. FORTH plus an oscilloscope usually beat a logic analyzer - writing a 'scope loop in a few lines of FORTH was much faster than getting the logic analyzer set up. The real power of the language is not so much in writing programs, rather it's a way to create domain-specific languages. I did my FORTH apprenticeship under someone who had implemented a compiler for "relay equations" (a notation for describing connections of actual relays to build control systems). The old-timers (in the 80s) could still write their relay equations, but they were then compiled and the computer did programmatically what the relays would have done in hard-wired logic. Somewhere around here I still have a Rockwell R65F11, with the development ROM and documentation.... From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Mar 28 12:21:23 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 17:21:23 -0000 Subject: VAXmate PSU Message-ID: <019a01d60525$4e6d19b0$eb474d10$@ntlworld.com> I have posted here a couple of times because I have a failed VAXmate PSU. I have just posted a little bit more information here: https://robs-old-computers.com/2020/03/28/further-analysis-of-the-vaxmate-h7 270-psu-failure/ with some scope traces and a greatly improved schematic. Although the schematic is likely to have errors still. Unfortunately, a stray scope probe ground lead blew the fuse so now I have to wait for a new fuse to arrive before I can continue work. I would really like to know if all the spiking I am seeing is to be expected, and any suggestions why it appears to be detecting an overcurrent? There do not appear to be any shorts on the secondary side, but that could be wrong of course. I don't know if a genuine short anywhere would cause it to trip the SCR quite so quickly (within 20ms of the switching transistor starting to switch). Any thoughts gratefully received. Thanks Rob From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Mar 28 13:55:34 2020 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 18:55:34 +0000 Subject: DIBOL and RPG for RSTS In-Reply-To: References: <2585C0F8-934E-45D3-986E-9780AC417603@comcast.net>, Message-ID: There are a few reasons most don't like Forth: 1. no type checking ( suppose to save dumb programmers ) 2. Often, no floating point. ( Math has to be well thought out but when done right in integer math it has few bugs ). 3. Few libraries ( One can often make code to attach to things like C libraries but it is a pain in the A. Often if you know what needs to be done it is easier and better to write your own low level code. Things like USB are tough to get at the low level stuff, though ) 4. To many cryptic symbols ( : , . ! @ ; ) 5. To much stack noise ( dup swap rot over ) I still use Forth for all my hobby work. It is the easiest language to get something working of any of the languages I've worked with. I recently wanted to work on some 4004 source code, I got my hands on( really hard to find ). I needed to write an assembler ( and disassembler to check it ), a simulator and instrumentation to emulate the target hardware. The source code was poorly printed such that letters like P and F, 0 and C were easily confused. I was able to quickly try different combinations as I was able to edit source, assemble and display emulation results in milliseconds. I can't think of anything in any other language that would be that flexible. When running the emulation, one could make any number of shortcuts to deal with complicated stimulus and display. Each targeted exactly to the current problem to be solved, not too much and not too little. Learning to be effective with Forth has a relatively steep learning curve. You have to understand the compiler and how it deals with your source code. You need to get used to proper comments to handle stack usage. You need to learn how to write short easily test words ( routines ). It is clearly not just a backwards LISP. It is not Python either. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Bill Gunshannon via cctalk Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2020 6:39 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: DIBOL and RPG for RSTS On 3/27/20 8:48 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Mar 27, 2020, at 8:42 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 3/27/20 8:25 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>>> On Mar 27, 2020, at 6:12 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>>> Does anyone have a .tap image of a DIBOL install tape for RSTS? >>>> >>>> And while I am at it, was there ever RPG for RSTS? >>>> >>>> I am so bored I have decided to really load up a SIMH system >>>> and just live in the past for a while. I have Fortran-IV, >>>> Fortran-77, COBOL-81 and C installed now as well as BASIC and >>>> MACRO. But I haven't had the chance to do any DIBOL or RPG >>>> for quite some time and would love to try them again. >>> If you want to try something entirely different, dig up the FORTH runtime system that's part of the V10.1 "unsupported" kit. It's a neat language. Still in use, in fact. >> >> I used that FIG FORTH package ages ago on real PDP-11's. >> Was never impressed with Forth so much. Only time I was >> impressed was when I worked with OpenPROM which was all >> written in Forth. Wanted to do one for the PDP-11 but >> lost interest when Sun gave it to IEEE and they wanted >> several thousand dollars just to look at it. >> >> Now I am more interested in sticking with the serious >> business languages that ran on the PDP-11. >> >> bill > > Ok. The RSTS Forth is more than FIG-FORTH; it adds the FORTH-83 (FORTH-79?) language standard features. I used it for several applications, the biggest by far is SDA, an interactive RSTS crash dump analyzer. 4600 lines of code... It should be in the kit. > I saw that FORTH was there but, as I said, FORTH didn't really interest me beyond the project I had that died on the vine thanks to the greed of the IEEE. Maybe I'll look in to that again sometime, but it would be low on my list of priorities at this point. I actually have FORTH on a number of different systems but have done little beyond comparing them. bill From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Sat Mar 28 14:27:42 2020 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 14:27:42 -0500 Subject: DIBOL and RPG for RSTS In-Reply-To: References: <2585C0F8-934E-45D3-986E-9780AC417603@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20200328192742.GA17295@RawFedDogs.net> On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 06:55:34PM +0000, dwight via cctalk wrote: > There are a few reasons most don't like Forth: I've looked at a few example Forth programs in the past. I usually cringed and quickly moved on. I should have done a little more research back then. This thread inspired me to take a closer look. Once I discovered that Forth uses reverse Polish notation, I'm intrigued. I was introduced to HP RPN calculators in high school, and eventually bought my own HP 11C. These days on Linux I use Orpie, a ncurses full screen RPN calculator. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Mar 28 20:06:05 2020 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 01:06:05 +0000 Subject: DIBOL and RPG for RSTS In-Reply-To: <20200328192742.GA17295@RawFedDogs.net> References: <2585C0F8-934E-45D3-986E-9780AC417603@comcast.net> , <20200328192742.GA17295@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: RPN is just there to simplify the interpreter and compiler. It takes some getting used to. Many claim that infixed is more natural but it is clumsy. One has to come up with a bunch of rules to make work. A + B * C multiply B and C an then add A. C B * A + in Forth Telling someone to do the calculation: Take C and B, multiply them together then take A and add it. ( how unnatural is that ) What if A B and C were not numbers but instead were function and procedures that returned values. Lets say C turned on a light and returned the current used. B multiplied it by the line voltage and A was a previous Watt total. Would you still write it like the first, knowing it would get the right result because of some order rule? Of course, in Forth you'd never use A B and C for such names but you could if you never expected anyone to read it. ( I've seen Forth look like that ) In Forth you always do things left to right. It is much less error prone. Well written Forth looks like sentences where you are telling the computer what to do and in what order. Good high level code rarely has SWAP or ROT in it. I had a friend that was tasked with writing code to do one of the error correction routines. He wrote it in Forth and gave it to his manager. His manager said "There must be a mistake, you have given me the definition of the code. Where is the code?" What better complement could a programmer get. I always strive to get to that level. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Kevin Monceaux via cctalk Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2020 12:27 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: DIBOL and RPG for RSTS On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 06:55:34PM +0000, dwight via cctalk wrote: > There are a few reasons most don't like Forth: I've looked at a few example Forth programs in the past. I usually cringed and quickly moved on. I should have done a little more research back then. This thread inspired me to take a closer look. Once I discovered that Forth uses reverse Polish notation, I'm intrigued. I was introduced to HP RPN calculators in high school, and eventually bought my own HP 11C. These days on Linux I use Orpie, a ncurses full screen RPN calculator. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From mattislind at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 00:39:17 2020 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 07:39:17 +0200 Subject: VAXmate PSU In-Reply-To: <019a01d60525$4e6d19b0$eb474d10$@ntlworld.com> References: <019a01d60525$4e6d19b0$eb474d10$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Hello Rob, l?rdag 28 mars 2020 skrev Rob Jarratt via cctalk : > I have posted here a couple of times because I have a failed VAXmate PSU. I > have just posted a little bit more information here: > https://robs-old-computers.com/2020/03/28/further- > analysis-of-the-vaxmate-h7 > 270-psu-failure/ with some scope traces and a greatly improved schematic. > Although the schematic is likely to have errors still. Unfortunately, a > stray scope probe ground lead blew the fuse so now I have to wait for a new > fuse to arrive before I can continue work. > > > > I would really like to know if all the spiking I am seeing is to be > expected, and any suggestions why it appears to be detecting an > overcurrent? > There do not appear to be any shorts on the secondary side, but that could > be wrong of course. I don't know if a genuine short anywhere would cause it > to trip the SCR quite so quickly (within 20ms of the switching transistor > starting to switch). > > This is fly back design and I would expect some spiking when the transistor shuts off. Then for over-current. It might be so that there are over-voltage protection on the outputs that kicks in. A crowbar that short circuits the output. It looks like there is such a circuit on 5 and 12 V. But to be honest the output circuit schematic is hard to read. If you have no load or little load or un-even load the PSU might hae problems to regulate. I know for fact that the PSU in the MicroVAX 2000 need to have a dummy load when no hard drive is installed otherwise there will be uneven load which it has hard time to handle sonce the output regulation is based on the sum of the outputs somehow. It will trip the crowbar on over voltage on one of the outputs otherwise. What if you supply the control circuitry on the primary side using a bench lab supply and then connect a protection transformer and a variac in series to the normal AC inlet. Slowly increase input AC voltage while monitoring source voltage and output voltages. At what AC input voltages does it trip? What is the output voltages at this point? If both voltages exceed normal and the crowbar trips I would think that the feedback network somehow reports to low output voltage to the control circuitry. Maybe the opto coupler is bad? Sorry. A lot of guessing here. But it is hard to tell withour more measurements. /Mattis > > Any thoughts gratefully received. > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Mar 29 01:20:49 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 00:20:49 -0600 Subject: DIBOL and RPG for RSTS In-Reply-To: References: <2585C0F8-934E-45D3-986E-9780AC417603@comcast.net> <20200328192742.GA17295@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <89ca19ac-090b-2588-2ce7-b38848bf689b@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/28/2020 7:06 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > RPN is just there to simplify the interpreter and compiler. It takes some getting used to. Many claim that infixed is more natural but it is clumsy. One has to come up with a bunch of rules to make work. > A + B * C > multiply B and C an then add A. > C B * A + in Forth > Telling someone to do the calculation: > Take C and B, multiply them together then take A and add it. ( how unnatural is that ) > What if A B and C were not numbers but instead were function and procedures that returned values. Lets say C turned on a light and returned the current used. B multiplied it by the line voltage and A was a previous Watt total. > Would you still write it like the first, knowing it would get the right result because of some order rule? > Of course, in Forth you'd never use A B and C for such names but you could if you never expected anyone to read it. ( I've seen Forth look like that ) > In Forth you always do things left to right. It is much less error prone. Well written Forth looks like sentences where you are telling the computer what to do and in what order. Good high level code rarely has SWAP or ROT in it. > I had a friend that was tasked with writing code to do one of the error correction routines. > He wrote it in Forth and gave it to his manager. > His manager said "There must be a mistake, you have given me the definition of the code. Where is the code?" > What better complement could a programmer get. I always ive to get to that level. > Dwight I feel that Fig-Forth was the best of all the Forth's out there, Other Forth's kept changing too much from what I felt was a good standard for 16 bit stuff. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Mar 29 01:55:24 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 07:55:24 +0100 Subject: VAXmate PSU In-Reply-To: References: <019a01d60525$4e6d19b0$eb474d10$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <01e401d60597$06161780$12424680$@ntlworld.com> Thanks Mattis. I do test it with a load, although to be honest I forgot to do this when I took the measurements yesterday. I use a modern-ish IDE disk and a load board from a MicroVAX 2000 as the dummy load. I don?t know if that is sufficient. I don?t know enough about PSUs to make the secondary side drawing more logical unfortunately. I have a variac and a bench power supply, so I could do what you suggest. Could you be a bit more specific about where to apply what, so I don?t do it wrong or damage something? Would you put the bench PSU across the UC3842 Vcc and Gnd pins? I am not sure what would happen if the normal supply to the UC3842 was still in place with the bench power supply also trying to supply power. Would it be wise to lift R32 so nothing conflicts with the bench power supply? Thanks Rob From: Mattis Lind Sent: 29 March 2020 06:39 To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: VAXmate PSU Hello Rob, l?rdag 28 mars 2020 skrev Rob Jarratt via cctalk >: I have posted here a couple of times because I have a failed VAXmate PSU. I have just posted a little bit more information here: https://robs-old-computers.com/2020/03/28/further-analysis-of-the-vaxmate-h7 270-psu-failure/ with some scope traces and a greatly improved schematic. Although the schematic is likely to have errors still. Unfortunately, a stray scope probe ground lead blew the fuse so now I have to wait for a new fuse to arrive before I can continue work. I would really like to know if all the spiking I am seeing is to be expected, and any suggestions why it appears to be detecting an overcurrent? There do not appear to be any shorts on the secondary side, but that could be wrong of course. I don't know if a genuine short anywhere would cause it to trip the SCR quite so quickly (within 20ms of the switching transistor starting to switch). This is fly back design and I would expect some spiking when the transistor shuts off. Then for over-current. It might be so that there are over-voltage protection on the outputs that kicks in. A crowbar that short circuits the output. It looks like there is such a circuit on 5 and 12 V. But to be honest the output circuit schematic is hard to read. If you have no load or little load or un-even load the PSU might hae problems to regulate. I know for fact that the PSU in the MicroVAX 2000 need to have a dummy load when no hard drive is installed otherwise there will be uneven load which it has hard time to handle sonce the output regulation is based on the sum of the outputs somehow. It will trip the crowbar on over voltage on one of the outputs otherwise. What if you supply the control circuitry on the primary side using a bench lab supply and then connect a protection transformer and a variac in series to the normal AC inlet. Slowly increase input AC voltage while monitoring source voltage and output voltages. At what AC input voltages does it trip? What is the output voltages at this point? If both voltages exceed normal and the crowbar trips I would think that the feedback network somehow reports to low output voltage to the control circuitry. Maybe the opto coupler is bad? Sorry. A lot of guessing here. But it is hard to tell withour more measurements. /Mattis Any thoughts gratefully received. Thanks Rob From mattislind at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 02:50:44 2020 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 09:50:44 +0200 Subject: VAXmate PSU In-Reply-To: <01e401d60597$06161780$12424680$@ntlworld.com> References: <019a01d60525$4e6d19b0$eb474d10$@ntlworld.com> <01e401d60597$06161780$12424680$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Hello Rob, s?ndag 29 mars 2020 skrev Rob Jarratt : > Thanks Mattis. I do test it with a load, although to be honest I forgot to > do this when I took the measurements yesterday. I use a modern-ish IDE disk > and a load board from a MicroVAX 2000 as the dummy load. I don?t know if > that is sufficient. > > Do you know the nominal output rating for the supply? It might be the case that even with load board the load is uneven. But it sounds less likely. > > > I don?t know enough about PSUs to make the secondary side drawing more > logical unfortunately. > > Can be hard. But a good idea is try to minimise the length of wires. Maybe use designators for networks instead of wires to make the schematic more readable. On the other hand I was reading the post on the iPad. > > > I have a variac and a bench power supply, so I could do what you suggest. > > To stay safe you need a protection transformer as well. Otherwise the the bench supply will end up at line potential. With the protection transformer in place the circuit will be left floating in relation to earth. With a variac you can then vary the input and keep it within safe limits. If you don?t have a protection transformer and variac then another bench DC supply that can give up to 100 V can be used instead. > > Could you be a bit more specific about where to apply what, so I don?t do > it wrong or damage something? Would you put the bench PSU across the UC3842 > Vcc and Gnd pins? I am not sure what would happen if the normal supply to > the UC3842 was still in place with the bench power supply also trying to > supply power. Would it be wise to lift R32 so nothing conflicts with the > bench power supply? > > Absolutely right. I should have been more explicit about where to introduce external supply. But as you say, lift R32 to isolate the switching controller and feed in the bench supply current at VCC. Check the data sheet for what is approriate voltage. Good luck! /Mattis > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > > > > *From:* Mattis Lind > *Sent:* 29 March 2020 06:39 > *To:* rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt ; > General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > *Subject:* Re: VAXmate PSU > > > > Hello Rob, > > l?rdag 28 mars 2020 skrev Rob Jarratt via cctalk : > > I have posted here a couple of times because I have a failed VAXmate PSU. I > have just posted a little bit more information here: > https://robs-old-computers.com/2020/03/28/further- > analysis-of-the-vaxmate-h7 > 270-psu-failure/ with some scope traces and a greatly improved schematic. > Although the schematic is likely to have errors still. Unfortunately, a > stray scope probe ground lead blew the fuse so now I have to wait for a new > fuse to arrive before I can continue work. > > > > I would really like to know if all the spiking I am seeing is to be > expected, and any suggestions why it appears to be detecting an > overcurrent? > There do not appear to be any shorts on the secondary side, but that could > be wrong of course. I don't know if a genuine short anywhere would cause it > to trip the SCR quite so quickly (within 20ms of the switching transistor > starting to switch). > > > > This is fly back design and I would expect some spiking when the > transistor shuts off. > > > > Then for over-current. It might be so that there are over-voltage > protection on the outputs that kicks in. A crowbar that short circuits the > output. It looks like there is such a circuit on 5 and 12 V. But to be > honest the output circuit schematic is hard to read. > > > > If you have no load or little load or un-even load the PSU might hae > problems to regulate. I know for fact that the PSU in the MicroVAX 2000 > need to have a dummy load when no hard drive is installed otherwise there > will be uneven load which it has hard time to handle sonce the output > regulation is based on the sum of the outputs somehow. It will trip the > crowbar on over voltage on one of the outputs otherwise. > > > > What if you supply the control circuitry on the primary side using a bench > lab supply and then connect a protection transformer and a variac in series > to the normal AC inlet. > > > > Slowly increase input AC voltage while monitoring source voltage and > output voltages. At what AC input voltages does it trip? What is the > output voltages at this point? > > > > If both voltages exceed normal and the crowbar trips I would think that > the feedback network somehow reports to low output voltage to the control > circuitry. Maybe the opto coupler is bad? > > > > Sorry. A lot of guessing here. But it is hard to tell withour more > measurements. > > > > /Mattis > > > > > > Any thoughts gratefully received. > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > > From matt at 9track.net Sun Mar 29 04:40:44 2020 From: matt at 9track.net (Matt Burke) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 10:40:44 +0100 Subject: VAXmate PSU In-Reply-To: References: <019a01d60525$4e6d19b0$eb474d10$@ntlworld.com> <01e401d60597$06161780$12424680$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <15e16fe3-6104-1d1f-6cc1-2c276ba9a7d9@9track.net> On 29/03/2020 08:50, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > Hello Rob, > > s?ndag 29 mars 2020 skrev Rob Jarratt : > >> Thanks Mattis. I do test it with a load, although to be honest I forgot to >> do this when I took the measurements yesterday. I use a modern-ish IDE disk >> and a load board from a MicroVAX 2000 as the dummy load. I don?t know if >> that is sufficient. >> >> > Do you know the nominal output rating for the supply? > It might be the case that even with load board the load is uneven. But it > sounds less likely. The output specifications for the H7270 power supply are on page 9-13 of the VAXmate Technical Description (EK-PC500-TD-001). +5.1V - Min 6.40A, Max 10.24A +12.1 - Min 0.17A, Max 1.37A -12.0 - Min 0.12A, Max 0.33A +28.0 - Min 0.45A, Max 0.55A -9.0 - Min 0.18A, Max 0.20A 300 - Min 0.00A, Max 0.46A (for the expansion box) I have one of those load boards from a MicroVAX 2000 but the 5V load was not connected by default. I had to install some zero ohm resistors. The board I have draws 1A at 12V and 3A at 5V so you will need more load on the 5V rail at least. As Mattis has mentioned there looks to be a crowbar circuit on the secondary side (Q2) to provide overvoltage protection. The 5V and 12V output are shorted by Q2, which causes the primary side to sense an overcurrent condition and shut the supply down. Matt From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Mar 29 05:39:53 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 11:39:53 +0100 Subject: VAXmate PSU In-Reply-To: References: <019a01d60525$4e6d19b0$eb474d10$@ntlworld.com> <01e401d60597$06161780$12424680$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <01eb01d605b6$61ba89d0$252f9d70$@ntlworld.com> Thanks, I do have an isolating transformer as well, so I will use that. I have done previous tests with a bench PSU on the UC3842 and found it needs 16V to get going. I just checked the Technical Description and it says the minimum current on the 5V output is 6.4A and on 12V it is 0.17A. I checked my load board and it is only going to sink 3A, so I need more load as I think the IDE disk is not going to be much. Would insufficient load really cause it to shutdown so quickly though? Not sure I understand your comment about ?designators for networks?, is there an example you can point me at? One of the things I have tried to do, but clearly not very successfully, is to minimise the lengths of the wires. Regards Rob From: Mattis Lind Sent: 29 March 2020 08:51 To: rob at jarratt.me.uk Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: VAXmate PSU Hello Rob, s?ndag 29 mars 2020 skrev Rob Jarratt >: Thanks Mattis. I do test it with a load, although to be honest I forgot to do this when I took the measurements yesterday. I use a modern-ish IDE disk and a load board from a MicroVAX 2000 as the dummy load. I don?t know if that is sufficient. Do you know the nominal output rating for the supply? It might be the case that even with load board the load is uneven. But it sounds less likely. I don?t know enough about PSUs to make the secondary side drawing more logical unfortunately. Can be hard. But a good idea is try to minimise the length of wires. Maybe use designators for networks instead of wires to make the schematic more readable. On the other hand I was reading the post on the iPad. I have a variac and a bench power supply, so I could do what you suggest. To stay safe you need a protection transformer as well. Otherwise the the bench supply will end up at line potential. With the protection transformer in place the circuit will be left floating in relation to earth. With a variac you can then vary the input and keep it within safe limits. If you don?t have a protection transformer and variac then another bench DC supply that can give up to 100 V can be used instead. Could you be a bit more specific about where to apply what, so I don?t do it wrong or damage something? Would you put the bench PSU across the UC3842 Vcc and Gnd pins? I am not sure what would happen if the normal supply to the UC3842 was still in place with the bench power supply also trying to supply power. Would it be wise to lift R32 so nothing conflicts with the bench power supply? Absolutely right. I should have been more explicit about where to introduce external supply. But as you say, lift R32 to isolate the switching controller and feed in the bench supply current at VCC. Check the data sheet for what is approriate voltage. Good luck! /Mattis Thanks Rob From: Mattis Lind < mattislind at gmail.com> Sent: 29 March 2020 06:39 To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt < robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: VAXmate PSU Hello Rob, l?rdag 28 mars 2020 skrev Rob Jarratt via cctalk >: I have posted here a couple of times because I have a failed VAXmate PSU. I have just posted a little bit more information here: https://robs-old-computers.com/2020/03/28/further-analysis-of-the-vaxmate-h7 270-psu-failure/ with some scope traces and a greatly improved schematic. Although the schematic is likely to have errors still. Unfortunately, a stray scope probe ground lead blew the fuse so now I have to wait for a new fuse to arrive before I can continue work. I would really like to know if all the spiking I am seeing is to be expected, and any suggestions why it appears to be detecting an overcurrent? There do not appear to be any shorts on the secondary side, but that could be wrong of course. I don't know if a genuine short anywhere would cause it to trip the SCR quite so quickly (within 20ms of the switching transistor starting to switch). This is fly back design and I would expect some spiking when the transistor shuts off. Then for over-current. It might be so that there are over-voltage protection on the outputs that kicks in. A crowbar that short circuits the output. It looks like there is such a circuit on 5 and 12 V. But to be honest the output circuit schematic is hard to read. If you have no load or little load or un-even load the PSU might hae problems to regulate. I know for fact that the PSU in the MicroVAX 2000 need to have a dummy load when no hard drive is installed otherwise there will be uneven load which it has hard time to handle sonce the output regulation is based on the sum of the outputs somehow. It will trip the crowbar on over voltage on one of the outputs otherwise. What if you supply the control circuitry on the primary side using a bench lab supply and then connect a protection transformer and a variac in series to the normal AC inlet. Slowly increase input AC voltage while monitoring source voltage and output voltages. At what AC input voltages does it trip? What is the output voltages at this point? If both voltages exceed normal and the crowbar trips I would think that the feedback network somehow reports to low output voltage to the control circuitry. Maybe the opto coupler is bad? Sorry. A lot of guessing here. But it is hard to tell withour more measurements. /Mattis Any thoughts gratefully received. Thanks Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Mar 29 05:41:43 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 11:41:43 +0100 Subject: VAXmate PSU In-Reply-To: <15e16fe3-6104-1d1f-6cc1-2c276ba9a7d9@9track.net> References: <019a01d60525$4e6d19b0$eb474d10$@ntlworld.com> <01e401d60597$06161780$12424680$@ntlworld.com> <15e16fe3-6104-1d1f-6cc1-2c276ba9a7d9@9track.net> Message-ID: <01f001d605b6$a3398190$e9ac84b0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Matt Burke via > cctalk > Sent: 29 March 2020 10:41 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: VAXmate PSU > > On 29/03/2020 08:50, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > > Hello Rob, > > > > s?ndag 29 mars 2020 skrev Rob Jarratt : > > > >> Thanks Mattis. I do test it with a load, although to be honest I > >> forgot to do this when I took the measurements yesterday. I use a > >> modern-ish IDE disk and a load board from a MicroVAX 2000 as the > >> dummy load. I don?t know if that is sufficient. > >> > >> > > Do you know the nominal output rating for the supply? > > It might be the case that even with load board the load is uneven. But > > it sounds less likely. > > The output specifications for the H7270 power supply are on page 9-13 of the > VAXmate Technical Description (EK-PC500-TD-001). > > +5.1V - Min 6.40A, Max 10.24A > +12.1 - Min 0.17A, Max 1.37A > -12.0 - Min 0.12A, Max 0.33A > +28.0 - Min 0.45A, Max 0.55A > -9.0 - Min 0.18A, Max 0.20A > 300 - Min 0.00A, Max 0.46A (for the expansion box) > > I have one of those load boards from a MicroVAX 2000 but the 5V load was not > connected by default. I had to install some zero ohm resistors. The board I have > draws 1A at 12V and 3A at 5V so you will need more load on the 5V rail at > least. Thanks Matt, I just found that bit in the documentation and realised I am not generating enough load. I will have to add more. I did connect the 5V load because as you say it wasn't connected. > > As Mattis has mentioned there looks to be a crowbar circuit on the secondary > side (Q2) to provide overvoltage protection. The 5V and 12V output are shorted > by Q2, which causes the primary side to sense an overcurrent condition and > shut the supply down. I can't test it now until I get another fuse, but I am sure I didn't see this happen, although it seems to be quite hard to tell. > > Matt From bob at jfcl.com Sat Mar 28 20:28:54 2020 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2020 18:28:54 -0700 Subject: H7874 power supply Message-ID: <006501d60569$692314a0$3b693de0$@com> Does anybody have a maintenance print or service manual for the DEC H7874? This is the power supply used in the BA4xx and R400x cabinets. As you might guess, I have one that tries to power up but shuts down after a second. Probably a bad capacitor (or several), but this thing is ridiculously complicated and not all that easy to disassemble, either. I'd like to be able to trouble shoot it rather than just firing the proverbial parts cannon at it. FWIW, none of the electrolytic (of which there are many) have obviously failed - no leaking, no bulges, etc. Of course, that proves fairly little. Thanks, Bob Armstrong From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Mar 29 01:39:27 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 07:39:27 +0100 Subject: H7874 power supply In-Reply-To: <006501d60569$692314a0$3b693de0$@com> References: <006501d60569$692314a0$3b693de0$@com> Message-ID: <01e301d60594$cc97afc0$65c70f40$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech On Behalf Of Robert > Armstrong via cctech > Sent: 29 March 2020 02:29 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: H7874 power supply > > Does anybody have a maintenance print or service manual for the DEC > H7874? > This is the power supply used in the BA4xx and R400x cabinets. As you might > guess, I have one that tries to power up but shuts down after a second. > Probably a bad capacitor (or several), but this thing is ridiculously complicated > and not all that easy to disassemble, either. I'd like to be able to trouble shoot > it rather than just firing the proverbial parts cannon at it. FWIW, none of the > electrolytic (of which there are many) have obviously failed - no leaking, no > bulges, etc. Of course, that proves fairly little. > This PSU is a real problem, as you say, complicated and hard to disassemble. I had one that didn't work, if I remember correctly in the end I had to get another one. I have a second machine with this PSU which has an intermittent problem and shuts itself down after a few minutes if it hasn't been used for a while, but a subsequent power up sees it work for as long as I need it. It looks like I reverse engineered the schematic of the 12V output board. I don't know if that would be of any use? How correct it is I don't know. Regards Rob > > > Thanks, > > Bob Armstrong > > From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sun Mar 29 05:27:02 2020 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 11:27:02 +0100 Subject: Monitors FTGH Message-ID: The following four monitors are available free for pickup in the UK (OX17 postcode). All appear clean but are untested. All are believed to have been functional when stored but that was ~2002/2003-ish. Microvitec Cub. Seems to be in its original box. DEC VRT19-D3. Vision Master Pro 17. DEC VRC21-W3. Obviously with the current restrictions on movement these cannot be picked up, but they need to be gone soon after the restrictions are over. Expressions of interest offlist please. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Mar 29 05:30:46 2020 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 12:30:46 +0200 Subject: H7874 power supply In-Reply-To: <01e301d60594$cc97afc0$65c70f40$@ntlworld.com> References: <006501d60569$692314a0$3b693de0$@com> <01e301d60594$cc97afc0$65c70f40$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20200329103046.GA86875@beast.freibergnet.de> Rob Jarratt via cctech wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctech On Behalf Of Robert > > Armstrong via cctech > > Sent: 29 March 2020 02:29 > > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > > Subject: H7874 power supply > > > > Does anybody have a maintenance print or service manual for the DEC > > H7874? > > This is the power supply used in the BA4xx and R400x cabinets. As you > might > > guess, I have one that tries to power up but shuts down after a second. > > Probably a bad capacitor (or several), but this thing is ridiculously > complicated > > and not all that easy to disassemble, either. I'd like to be able to > trouble shoot > > it rather than just firing the proverbial parts cannon at it. FWIW, none > of the > > electrolytic (of which there are many) have obviously failed - no leaking, > no > > bulges, etc. Of course, that proves fairly little. > > > > This PSU is a real problem, as you say, complicated and hard to disassemble. > I had one that didn't work, if I remember correctly in the end I had to get > another one. I have a second machine with this PSU which has an intermittent > problem and shuts itself down after a few minutes if it hasn't been used for > a while, but a subsequent power up sees it work for as long as I need it. > > It looks like I reverse engineered the schematic of the 12V output board. I > don't know if that would be of any use? How correct it is I don't know. > > Regards > > Rob > > I would be interested. I have an VAX400/300 with such an working again PSU, Changed Capacitors two years before..now it works. A friend gave me another PSU with a similar fault, changed capacitors as before on the other one..but no luck at all. It still powers down shortly after switching on. Yes..thats the most ugly PSU Design I ever saw..and I'm interested in schematics or parts of them.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Mar 29 09:21:53 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 10:21:53 -0400 Subject: DIBOL and RPG for RSTS In-Reply-To: References: <2585C0F8-934E-45D3-986E-9780AC417603@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Mar 28, 2020, at 2:55 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > > There are a few reasons most don't like Forth: > > 1. no type checking ( suppose to save dumb programmers ) > 2. Often, no floating point. ( Math has to be well thought out but when done right in integer math it has few bugs ). > 3. Few libraries ( One can often make code to attach to things like C libraries but it is a pain in the A. Often if you know what needs to be done it is easier and better to write your own low level code. Things like USB are tough to get at the low level stuff, though ) > 4. To many cryptic symbols ( : , . ! @ ; ) > 5. To much stack noise ( dup swap rot over ) > > I still use Forth for all my hobby work. It is the easiest language to get something working of any of the languages I've worked with. > ... > Learning to be effective with Forth has a relatively steep learning curve. You have to understand the compiler and how it deals with your source code. You need to get used to proper comments to handle stack usage. You need to learn how to write short easily test words ( routines ). It is clearly not just a backwards LISP. It is not Python either. > Dwight No, it certainly isn't Python, which is my other major fast-coding language. FORTH started as a small fast real-time control language; its inventor worked in an observatory and needed a way to control telescopes. It's still used for that today. I recently went looking for FORTH processors in FPGA, there are several. One that looked very good was designed for robotics and machine vision work. The designer posted both the FPGA design and the software, which includes a TCP/IP (or UDP/IP ?) stack. He reports that the code is both much smaller and faster than compiled C code running on conventional FPGA embedded processors. paul From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Sun Mar 29 10:42:02 2020 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 10:42:02 -0500 Subject: DIBOL and RPG for RSTS In-Reply-To: References: <2585C0F8-934E-45D3-986E-9780AC417603@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20200329154202.GA15401@RawFedDogs.net> On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 06:55:34PM +0000, dwight via cctalk wrote: > It is clearly not just a backwards LISP. LISP is another language that I shied away from in the past, but finally started exploring a while back. > It is not Python either. There's another point in its favor. I've tried to develop a fondness for Python over the years. It hasn't happened yet. The languages I've used most are probably Perl and Clipper. At work before we retired our mainframe I did a little COBOL, EasyTrieve, and Gener/OL programming. Now that we've migrated to an IBM i platform, I've done some CL and RPG programming. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Mar 29 11:13:27 2020 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 09:13:27 -0700 Subject: DIBOL and RPG for RSTS In-Reply-To: References: <2585C0F8-934E-45D3-986E-9780AC417603@comcast.net> Message-ID: <17d94fa015a27b382d8ca43de35e4d398e10b37f.camel@shiresoft.com> On Sun, 2020-03-29 at 10:21 -0400, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > On Mar 28, 2020, at 2:55 PM, dwight via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > There are a few reasons most don't like Forth: > > > > 1. no type checking ( suppose to save dumb programmers ) > > 2. Often, no floating point. ( Math has to be well thought out > > but when done right in integer math it has few bugs ). > > 3. Few libraries ( One can often make code to attach to things > > like C libraries but it is a pain in the A. Often if you know what > > needs to be done it is easier and better to write your own low > > level code. Things like USB are tough to get at the low level > > stuff, though ) > > 4. To many cryptic symbols ( : , . ! @ ; ) > > 5. To much stack noise ( dup swap rot over ) > > > > I still use Forth for all my hobby work. It is the easiest language > > to get something working of any of the languages I've worked with. > > ... > > Learning to be effective with Forth has a relatively steep learning > > curve. You have to understand the compiler and how it deals with > > your source code. You need to get used to proper comments to handle > > stack usage. You need to learn how to write short easily test words > > ( routines ). It is clearly not just a backwards LISP. It is not > > Python either. > > Dwight > > No, it certainly isn't Python, which is my other major fast-coding > language. > > FORTH started as a small fast real-time control language; its > inventor worked in an observatory and needed a way to control > telescopes. It's still used for that today. I recently went looking > for FORTH processors in FPGA, there are several. One that looked > very good was designed for robotics and machine vision work. The > designer posted both the FPGA design and the software, which includes > a TCP/IP (or UDP/IP ?) stack. He reports that the code is both much > smaller and faster than compiled C code running on conventional FPGA > embedded processors. > Yes, that would be J1. I've used it and even wrote a simulator for it (in FORTH 'natch) so that I could debug my code. It's a useful FPGA implementation. TTFN - Guy From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 12:41:30 2020 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 18:41:30 +0100 Subject: Monitors FTGH In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On 29 Mar 2020, at 11:27, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > > The following four monitors are available free for pickup in the UK (OX17 postcode). > > > All appear clean but are untested. All are believed to have been functional when stored but that was ~2002/2003-ish. > > > Microvitec Cub. Seems to be in its original box. Ah dammit, I wish I?d known you had that when you came up to relieve me of some tape stuff I?d rescued from work I too have some honking great monitors to give away, including my main VRT19 that was my DECstation then Alpha 3000 monitor at work back in the 90s. I?m surprised at how brown it?s gone. -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 29 16:14:48 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 14:14:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VAXmate PSU In-Reply-To: <01e401d60597$06161780$12424680$@ntlworld.com> References: <019a01d60525$4e6d19b0$eb474d10$@ntlworld.com> <01e401d60597$06161780$12424680$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Mar 2020, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > Thanks Mattis. I do test it with a load, although to be honest I forgot > to do this when I took the measurements yesterday. I use a modern-ish > IDE disk and a load board from a MicroVAX 2000 as the dummy load. I > don?t know if that is sufficient. I have NO specific knowledge of that PSU. However, it seems likely that a "modern-sh IDE disk" in unlikely to be enough load. OB_useless_nostalgia: In the old days, we used an automotive headlight bulb. That also provided a lot, even excess, light on the workbench. Since my microcomputer days overlapped the period that I ran a Honda car repair shop (until 1980), I used to save any dual filament (High/low) bulbs that we replaced due to ONE of the filaments burning out. I made an aimable mount for my workbench load out of an early VW headlight mount. From bob at jfcl.com Sun Mar 29 09:43:50 2020 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 07:43:50 -0700 Subject: H7874 power supply In-Reply-To: <01e301d60594$cc97afc0$65c70f40$@ntlworld.com> References: <006501d60569$692314a0$3b693de0$@com> <01e301d60594$cc97afc0$65c70f40$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <003301d605d8$76603660$6320a320$@com> > Rob Jarratt >robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote: > I reverse engineered the schematic of the 12V output board. I >don't know if that would be of any use? How correct it is I don't know. Sure, if you don't mind sharing. Everything helps. Looks like there are five separate PCBs in there. There's one long, skinny one that's obviously the AC input and rectifier board, which probably produces something like 300VDC for the regulator boards. There are two similar but not identical boards with huge heat sinks that are obviously the output regulators. I think this PS has +5, +3.3, +12 and -12 volt outputs, but I've no idea which board does which. And then there's a giant PCB, almost 11" square, covered with opamps, 74LS logic and discrete parts. There are filter caps, a transformer, and switching transistors on this board too so it obviously produces yet another power output for something. Oh, and I think this cabinet has variable speed fans, right? SO there's probably a fan speed controller on here as well. You'd think that will all this logic it could at least have some LEDs or something to tell me which output has failed, but it doesn't seem like it. Thanks Bob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Mar 29 10:43:22 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 16:43:22 +0100 Subject: H7874 power supply In-Reply-To: <003301d605d8$76603660$6320a320$@com> References: <006501d60569$692314a0$3b693de0$@com> <01e301d60594$cc97afc0$65c70f40$@ntlworld.com> <003301d605d8$76603660$6320a320$@com> Message-ID: <021e01d605e0$c7895e10$569c1a30$@ntlworld.com> OK, I posted it here: https://robs-old-computers.com/2020/03/29/h7874-power-supply/ > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Armstrong > Sent: 29 March 2020 15:44 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: H7874 power supply > > > Rob Jarratt >robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote: > > I reverse engineered the schematic of the 12V output board. I don't > >know if that would be of any use? How correct it is I don't know. > > Sure, if you don't mind sharing. Everything helps. > > Looks like there are five separate PCBs in there. There's one long, skinny one > that's obviously the AC input and rectifier board, which probably produces > something like 300VDC for the regulator boards. There are two similar but not > identical boards with huge heat sinks that are obviously the output regulators. I > think this PS has +5, +3.3, +12 and -12 volt outputs, but I've no idea which board > does which. > > And then there's a giant PCB, almost 11" square, covered with opamps, 74LS > logic and discrete parts. There are filter caps, a transformer, and switching > transistors on this board too so it obviously produces yet another power output > for something. Oh, and I think this cabinet has variable speed fans, right? SO > there's probably a fan speed controller on here as well. > > You'd think that will all this logic it could at least have some LEDs or > something to tell me which output has failed, but it doesn't seem like it. > > Thanks > Bob From macro at linux-mips.org Sun Mar 29 11:17:48 2020 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 17:17:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: H7874 power supply In-Reply-To: <003301d605d8$76603660$6320a320$@com> References: <006501d60569$692314a0$3b693de0$@com> <01e301d60594$cc97afc0$65c70f40$@ntlworld.com> <003301d605d8$76603660$6320a320$@com> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Mar 2020, Robert Armstrong via cctech wrote: > And then there's a giant PCB, almost 11" square, covered with opamps, 74LS > logic and discrete parts. There are filter caps, a transformer, and > switching transistors on this board too so it obviously produces yet another > power output for something. Oh, and I think this cabinet has variable speed > fans, right? SO there's probably a fan speed controller on here as well. There's logic included there for synchronised control of multiple H7874 PSUs at once in a master-slave configuration via a set of auxiliary connectors so as to power up or down all pieces simultaneously in a complex machine setup with storage and/or Q-bus expansion boxes. No documentation for the PSU has been chased so far as far as I know. Note that also with this PSU there were capacitors used that suffered from the issue with the quaternary ammonium salt system used in the electrolyte. All mine had numerous Chemi-Con SXF parts scattered across all boards, some leaking. They are prone to leaks even if unused and have to be replaced. Especially those next to the 5V circuit are hard to get to to desolder and replace. Also Chemi-Con SXE parts present in this PSU are reportedly affected although I haven't seen them leak myself. This PSU has been my worst nightmare as far as keeping old equipment alive has been concerned. I was able to make just one working PSU out of three broken ones by mixing and matching individual pieces with caps replaced until I found one set that worked. I consider replacing the large cuboid 6800?F Sprague part as well as I have seen its capacitance drop down to like half of its nominal. Maciej From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Mar 29 11:50:50 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 17:50:50 +0100 Subject: H7874 power supply In-Reply-To: References: <006501d60569$692314a0$3b693de0$@com> <01e301d60594$cc97afc0$65c70f40$@ntlworld.com> <003301d605d8$76603660$6320a320$@com> Message-ID: <022501d605ea$340865a0$9c1930e0$@ntlworld.com> I forgot to mention that I replaced a fair number of capacitors, even ones that had not leaked, because their ESR was a bit suspect. I have some notes, but it is hard to reconstruct exactly what I did. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech On Behalf Of Maciej W. > Rozycki via cctech > Sent: 29 March 2020 17:18 > To: bob at jfcl.com; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > > Cc: rob at jarratt.me.uk > Subject: RE: H7874 power supply > > On Sun, 29 Mar 2020, Robert Armstrong via cctech wrote: > > > And then there's a giant PCB, almost 11" square, covered with > > opamps, 74LS logic and discrete parts. There are filter caps, a > > transformer, and switching transistors on this board too so it > > obviously produces yet another power output for something. Oh, and I > > think this cabinet has variable speed fans, right? SO there's probably a fan > speed controller on here as well. > > There's logic included there for synchronised control of multiple H7874 PSUs at > once in a master-slave configuration via a set of auxiliary connectors so as to > power up or down all pieces simultaneously in a complex machine setup with > storage and/or Q-bus expansion boxes. No documentation for the PSU has > been chased so far as far as I know. > > Note that also with this PSU there were capacitors used that suffered from the > issue with the quaternary ammonium salt system used in the electrolyte. All > mine had numerous Chemi-Con SXF parts scattered across all boards, some > leaking. They are prone to leaks even if unused and have to be replaced. > Especially those next to the 5V circuit are hard to get to to desolder and > replace. Also Chemi-Con SXE parts present in this PSU are reportedly affected > although I haven't seen them leak myself. > > This PSU has been my worst nightmare as far as keeping old equipment alive > has been concerned. I was able to make just one working PSU out of three > broken ones by mixing and matching individual pieces with caps replaced until I > found one set that worked. I consider replacing the large cuboid 6800?F > Sprague part as well as I have seen its capacitance drop down to like half of its > nominal. > > Maciej From bob at jfcl.com Sun Mar 29 13:14:34 2020 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 11:14:34 -0700 Subject: H7874 power supply In-Reply-To: References: <006501d60569$692314a0$3b693de0$@com> <01e301d60594$cc97afc0$65c70f40$@ntlworld.com> <003301d605d8$76603660$6320a320$@com> Message-ID: <002201d605f5$e6f8a6b0$b4e9f410$@com> >Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: >numerous Chemi-Con SXF parts scattered across >all boards, some leaking Yeah, mine is full of "Nippon Chemi-Con" electrolytic too. What about just gutting the PS chassis and sticking in an ATX power supply? I don't know how the maximum current per output breaks down, but as I understand it the H7874 is only a 600W supply. That's not a problem for an ATX supply, and it would have all the required output voltages. You'd have to run the cabinet fans at a fixed speed and you'd lose the power control bus feature, but that's not a show stopper. Actually my unit is in an R400x chassis full of RF drives, so I believe I only need +12 and +5. I don't think the 3.3v and -12 are used in that case. I wonder how much current I really need for the drives? I should look that up and I might be able to find a surplus dual output supply that would do the job. Thanks again, Bob From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Mar 29 13:24:32 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 14:24:32 -0400 Subject: H7874 power supply In-Reply-To: <002201d605f5$e6f8a6b0$b4e9f410$@com> References: <006501d60569$692314a0$3b693de0$@com> <01e301d60594$cc97afc0$65c70f40$@ntlworld.com> <003301d605d8$76603660$6320a320$@com> <002201d605f5$e6f8a6b0$b4e9f410$@com> Message-ID: <99E552A0-1BB2-40E6-A5B6-23EE7B637B3A@comcast.net> > On Mar 29, 2020, at 2:14 PM, Robert Armstrong via cctech wrote: > >> Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: >> numerous Chemi-Con SXF parts scattered across >> all boards, some leaking > > Yeah, mine is full of "Nippon Chemi-Con" electrolytic too. > > What about just gutting the PS chassis and sticking in an ATX power supply? I don't know how the maximum current per output breaks down, but as I understand it the H7874 is only a 600W supply. That's not a problem for an ATX supply, and it would have all the required output voltages. You'd have to run the cabinet fans at a fixed speed and you'd lose the power control bus feature, but that's not a show stopper. > > Actually my unit is in an R400x chassis full of RF drives, so I believe I only need +12 and +5. I don't think the 3.3v and -12 are used in that case. I wonder how much current I really need for the drives? I should look that up and I might be able to find a surplus dual output supply that would do the job. I had a similar thought for a PRO supply that blew its input filter (of all things). It does +5, +12, and -12. The -12 is needed at least for RS232. paul From brendan at mcneill.co.nz Sun Mar 29 15:47:51 2020 From: brendan at mcneill.co.nz (Brendan McNeill) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 09:47:51 +1300 Subject: PDP-8 Straight 8 restoration Message-ID: Here in NZ and around the world many of us are in lockdown and spending more time on our computers, if that were possible. I have just completed the restoration of a PDP-8 Straight 8 which I believe is the only one in New Zealand. You can view the restoration story and find appropriate resources here: https://pdp-8.nz While it plays Chess, it would be great if someone wanted to write (say) a Prime Number Generator, or some other application and email it to me off list. I have Focal-69 and can probably source other languages for this wonderful old machine with 4K of memory. --------------//---------------- brendan at mcneill.co.nz +64 21 881 883 From db at db.net Sun Mar 29 15:59:14 2020 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 16:59:14 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 Straight 8 restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200329205914.GC15412@night.db.net> On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 09:47:51AM +1300, Brendan McNeill via cctech wrote: > Here in NZ and around the world many of us are in lockdown and spending more time on our computers, if that were possible. I have just completed the restoration of a PDP-8 Straight 8 which I believe is the only one in New Zealand. You can view the restoration story and find appropriate resources here: https://pdp-8.nz > > While it plays Chess, it would be great if someone wanted to write (say) a Prime Number Generator, or some other application and email it to me off list. I have Focal-69 and can probably source other languages for this wonderful old machine with 4K of memory. I have memories of keying in RIM and BIN. Long long time ago. I also learned how to talk to the OS/8 file system so we could play morse code from a file instead of a paper tape for our University club station. ;) > --------------//---------------- > brendan at mcneill.co.nz > +64 21 881 883 > > > > 73 de VA3DB for those that care ;) -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Mar 29 16:04:47 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 22:04:47 +0100 Subject: H7874 power supply In-Reply-To: <002201d605f5$e6f8a6b0$b4e9f410$@com> References: <006501d60569$692314a0$3b693de0$@com> <01e301d60594$cc97afc0$65c70f40$@ntlworld.com> <003301d605d8$76603660$6320a320$@com> <002201d605f5$e6f8a6b0$b4e9f410$@com> Message-ID: <023701d6060d$aeaca5a0$0c05f0e0$@ntlworld.com> I have some notes I made about trying a PC PSU, I don't think it really worked, there are signals to indicate power OK and perhaps others. But perhaps a more concerted effort might yield something that could work. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech On Behalf Of Robert > Armstrong via cctech > Sent: 29 March 2020 19:15 > To: 'Maciej W. Rozycki' ; 'General Discussion: On- > Topic Posts' > Cc: rob at jarratt.me.uk > Subject: RE: H7874 power supply > > >Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > >numerous Chemi-Con SXF parts scattered across all boards, some leaking > > Yeah, mine is full of "Nippon Chemi-Con" electrolytic too. > > What about just gutting the PS chassis and sticking in an ATX power supply? I > don't know how the maximum current per output breaks down, but as I > understand it the H7874 is only a 600W supply. That's not a problem for an > ATX supply, and it would have all the required output voltages. You'd have to > run the cabinet fans at a fixed speed and you'd lose the power control bus > feature, but that's not a show stopper. > > Actually my unit is in an R400x chassis full of RF drives, so I believe I only need > +12 and +5. I don't think the 3.3v and -12 are used in that case. I wonder how > much current I really need for the drives? I should look that up and I might be > able to find a surplus dual output supply that would do the job. > > Thanks again, > Bob From nw.johnson at ieee.org Sun Mar 29 16:59:42 2020 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 17:59:42 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 Straight 8 restoration In-Reply-To: <20200329205914.GC15412@night.db.net> References: <20200329205914.GC15412@night.db.net> Message-ID: Brings back memories!? My first 6800 cross assembler came to me as 2000 Fortran source code punch cards. We had an F4R4 compiler on the PDP11 but the card reader was on the PDP-8. The only common peripheral was paper tape.? One night, the Chief Engineer and I fed the cards into the PDP8 card reader, punched tape, and fed it directly into the PDP11 tape reader.? X-on X-off was handled by hitting the stop and continue buttons on the PDP8 as the punch was faster than the reader.? The buffer was a pile of paper tape in the floor, which we carefully prevented from tangling.? Somehow OS/8 managed to not crash with the constant start/stop. Nobody was more surprised than we were when the output compiled perfectly on the PDP11 and we made our first 6800 program - a ham repeater controller! The Chief Engineer is still alive - I was at his 95th birthday last year and we often have fun talking about the good old days! cheers, Nigel Johnson On 29/03/2020 16:59, Diane Bruce via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 09:47:51AM +1300, Brendan McNeill via cctech wrote: >> Here in NZ and around the world many of us are in lockdown and spending more time on our computers, if that were possible. I have just completed the restoration of a PDP-8 Straight 8 which I believe is the only one in New Zealand. You can view the restoration story and find appropriate resources here: https://pdp-8.nz >> >> While it plays Chess, it would be great if someone wanted to write (say) a Prime Number Generator, or some other application and email it to me off list. I have Focal-69 and can probably source other languages for this wonderful old machine with 4K of memory. > I have memories of keying in RIM and BIN. Long long time ago. I also learned > how to talk to the OS/8 file system so we could play morse code from a file > instead of a paper tape for our University club station. ;) > >> --------------//---------------- >> brendan at mcneill.co.nz >> +64 21 881 883 >> >> >> >> > 73 de VA3DB for those that care ;) -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Mar 29 17:30:25 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 23:30:25 +0100 Subject: Split Ceramic Disk Capacitor Message-ID: <023801d60619$a4b12470$ee136d50$@ntlworld.com> Since I am forced to stay at home more than I would like I though I would check some more PSUs. One I wanted to check was the H7109-C from one of my VAXstation 4000 VLC machines. I found a leaked capacitor and some other high ESR ones, so I will replace those. However, I also noticed a ceramic disk capacitor that appears to be split all around the edge. Is that a known failure mode? Regards Rob From db at db.net Sun Mar 29 18:09:56 2020 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 19:09:56 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 Straight 8 restoration In-Reply-To: References: <20200329205914.GC15412@night.db.net> Message-ID: <20200329230956.GA17021@night.db.net> On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 05:59:42PM -0400, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > Brings back memories!? My first 6800 cross assembler came to me as 2000 > Fortran source code punch cards. We had an F4R4 compiler on the PDP11 but > the card reader was on the PDP-8. Funny how the kids don't realise Fortran was the 'C' language at one time. Editors, linker, macro preprocessors a lot of it was done in Fortran. ;) > > The only common peripheral was paper tape.? One night, the Chief Engineer > and I fed the cards into the PDP8 card reader, punched tape, and fed it > directly into the PDP11 tape reader.? X-on X-off was handled by hitting the > stop and continue buttons on the PDP8 as the punch was faster than the > reader.? The buffer was a pile of paper tape in the floor, which we > carefully prevented from tangling.? Somehow OS/8 managed to not crash with > the constant start/stop. heh I can only imagine. > > Nobody was more surprised than we were when the output compiled perfectly on > the PDP11 and we made our first 6800 program - a ham repeater controller! Cool! > > The Chief Engineer is still alive - I was at his 95th birthday last year and > we often have fun talking about the good old days! Nice! > > cheers, > > Nigel Johnson > > > On 29/03/2020 16:59, Diane Bruce via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 09:47:51AM +1300, Brendan McNeill via cctech wrote: > > > Here in NZ and around the world many of us are in lockdown and spending more time on our computers, if that were possible. I have just completed the restoration of a PDP-8 Straight 8 which I believe is the only one in New Zealand. You can view the restoration story and find appropriate resources here: https://pdp-8.nz > > > > > > While it plays Chess, it would be great if someone wanted to write (say) a Prime Number Generator, or some other application and email it to me off list. I have Focal-69 and can probably source other languages for this wonderful old machine with 4K of memory. > > I have memories of keying in RIM and BIN. Long long time ago. I also learned > > how to talk to the OS/8 file system so we could play morse code from a file > > instead of a paper tape for our University club station. ;) > > > > > --------------//---------------- > > > brendan at mcneill.co.nz > > > +64 21 881 883 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 73 de VA3DB for those that care ;) > > > -- > Nigel Johnson > MSc., MIEEE > VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > > > You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 > > If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday > > This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. > Nigel Johnson > > Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message > > -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sun Mar 29 18:24:11 2020 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 23:24:11 +0000 Subject: PDP-8 Straight 8 restoration In-Reply-To: <20200329230956.GA17021@night.db.net> References: <20200329205914.GC15412@night.db.net> , <20200329230956.GA17021@night.db.net> Message-ID: I can't be the only one who would like to see the FORTRAN source of some of those editors, linkers, macro processors. As a medical electronics guy, I had to deal with a fortran monster of a database engine, manman. It was legacy in with the FDA, but woa, what a suck piece of crap it is. Hi Diane. Still Cadence here, signal integrity work for space ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Diane Bruce via cctalk Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 4:09 PM To: Nigel Johnson ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP-8 Straight 8 restoration On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 05:59:42PM -0400, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > Brings back memories! My first 6800 cross assembler came to me as 2000 > Fortran source code punch cards. We had an F4R4 compiler on the PDP11 but > the card reader was on the PDP-8. Funny how the kids don't realise Fortran was the 'C' language at one time. Editors, linker, macro preprocessors a lot of it was done in Fortran. ;) > > The only common peripheral was paper tape. One night, the Chief Engineer > and I fed the cards into the PDP8 card reader, punched tape, and fed it > directly into the PDP11 tape reader. X-on X-off was handled by hitting the > stop and continue buttons on the PDP8 as the punch was faster than the > reader. The buffer was a pile of paper tape in the floor, which we > carefully prevented from tangling. Somehow OS/8 managed to not crash with > the constant start/stop. heh I can only imagine. > > Nobody was more surprised than we were when the output compiled perfectly on > the PDP11 and we made our first 6800 program - a ham repeater controller! Cool! > > The Chief Engineer is still alive - I was at his 95th birthday last year and > we often have fun talking about the good old days! Nice! > > cheers, > > Nigel Johnson > > > On 29/03/2020 16:59, Diane Bruce via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 09:47:51AM +1300, Brendan McNeill via cctech wrote: > > > Here in NZ and around the world many of us are in lockdown and spending more time on our computers, if that were possible. I have just completed the restoration of a PDP-8 Straight 8 which I believe is the only one in New Zealand. You can view the restoration story and find appropriate resources here: https://pdp-8.nz > > > > > > While it plays Chess, it would be great if someone wanted to write (say) a Prime Number Generator, or some other application and email it to me off list. I have Focal-69 and can probably source other languages for this wonderful old machine with 4K of memory. > > I have memories of keying in RIM and BIN. Long long time ago. I also learned > > how to talk to the OS/8 file system so we could play morse code from a file > > instead of a paper tape for our University club station. ;) > > > > > --------------//---------------- > > > brendan at mcneill.co.nz > > > +64 21 881 883 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 73 de VA3DB for those that care ;) > > > -- > Nigel Johnson > MSc., MIEEE > VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > > > You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 > > If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday > > This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. > Nigel Johnson > > Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message > > -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Mar 29 18:33:35 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 17:33:35 -0600 Subject: PDP-8 Straight 8 restoration In-Reply-To: <20200329230956.GA17021@night.db.net> References: <20200329205914.GC15412@night.db.net> <20200329230956.GA17021@night.db.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 5:10 PM Diane Bruce via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 05:59:42PM -0400, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > > Brings back memories! My first 6800 cross assembler came to me as 2000 > > Fortran source code punch cards. We had an F4R4 compiler on the PDP11 but > > the card reader was on the PDP-8. > > Funny how the kids don't realise Fortran was the 'C' language at one time. > Editors, linker, macro preprocessors a lot of it was done in Fortran. ;) > He was lucky the card deck was in order. One of my first jobs was to read in old, horrible FORTRAN IV from punch card, then check it against a listing the boss had and edit to match... This was the same place we wrote malloc for FORTRAN and passed around all kinds of crazy data structures that offset into the malloc arena so it would run on both the pdp-11 and the vax... Warner > > > The only common peripheral was paper tape. One night, the Chief Engineer > > and I fed the cards into the PDP8 card reader, punched tape, and fed it > > directly into the PDP11 tape reader. X-on X-off was handled by hitting > the > > stop and continue buttons on the PDP8 as the punch was faster than the > > reader. The buffer was a pile of paper tape in the floor, which we > > carefully prevented from tangling. Somehow OS/8 managed to not crash > with > > the constant start/stop. > > heh I can only imagine. > > > > > Nobody was more surprised than we were when the output compiled > perfectly on > > the PDP11 and we made our first 6800 program - a ham repeater controller! > > Cool! > > > > > The Chief Engineer is still alive - I was at his 95th birthday last year > and > > we often have fun talking about the good old days! > > Nice! > > > > > > cheers, > > > > Nigel Johnson > > > > > > On 29/03/2020 16:59, Diane Bruce via cctalk wrote: > > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 09:47:51AM +1300, Brendan McNeill via cctech > wrote: > > > > Here in NZ and around the world many of us are in lockdown and > spending more time on our computers, if that were possible. I have just > completed the restoration of a PDP-8 Straight 8 which I believe is the only > one in New Zealand. You can view the restoration story and find > appropriate resources here: https://pdp-8.nz > > > > > > > > While it plays Chess, it would be great if someone wanted to write > (say) a Prime Number Generator, or some other application and email it to > me off list. I have Focal-69 and can probably source other languages for > this wonderful old machine with 4K of memory. > > > I have memories of keying in RIM and BIN. Long long time ago. I also > learned > > > how to talk to the OS/8 file system so we could play morse code from a > file > > > instead of a paper tape for our University club station. ;) > > > > > > > --------------//---------------- > > > > brendan at mcneill.co.nz > > > > +64 21 881 883 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 73 de VA3DB for those that care ;) > > > > > > -- > > Nigel Johnson > > MSc., MIEEE > > VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > > > > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > > > > > > You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 > > > > If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again > yesterday > > > > This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route > from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by > any number of system administrators along the way. > > Nigel Johnson > > > > Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to > print this message > > > > > > -- > - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db > From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Sun Mar 29 18:56:21 2020 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 00:56:21 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Split Ceramic Disk Capacitor In-Reply-To: <023801d60619$a4b12470$ee136d50$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <01RJ3HR5J1X08X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie> > > Since I am forced to stay at home more than I would like I though I would > check some more PSUs. One I wanted to check was the H7109-C from one of my > VAXstation 4000 VLC machines. I found a leaked capacitor and some other high > ESR ones, so I will replace those. However, I also noticed a ceramic disk > capacitor that appears to be split all around the edge. Is that a known > failure mode? > Is it definately a capacitor? I've had some damaged surge arrestors / MOVs / VDRs that look very similar to ceramic disc capacitors. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From cramcram at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 17:11:24 2020 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 15:11:24 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 Straight 8 restoration In-Reply-To: References: <20200329205914.GC15412@night.db.net> Message-ID: Nigel, I first learned assembly on a straight-8. Also learned about repair with the same machine (1974). As for fun time wasters back then there was a DECUS paper tape that could compute n! up to 200! exactly. I remember that I could start it before lunch, come back, and then about 15 minutes later it would start printing all the digits for 200!. Enjoy your 8, Marc Howard On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 2:59 PM Nigel Johnson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Brings back memories! My first 6800 cross assembler came to me as 2000 > Fortran source code punch cards. We had an F4R4 compiler on the PDP11 > but the card reader was on the PDP-8. > > The only common peripheral was paper tape. One night, the Chief > Engineer and I fed the cards into the PDP8 card reader, punched tape, > and fed it directly into the PDP11 tape reader. X-on X-off was handled > by hitting the stop and continue buttons on the PDP8 as the punch was > faster than the reader. The buffer was a pile of paper tape in the > floor, which we carefully prevented from tangling. Somehow OS/8 managed > to not crash with the constant start/stop. > > Nobody was more surprised than we were when the output compiled > perfectly on the PDP11 and we made our first 6800 program - a ham > repeater controller! > > The Chief Engineer is still alive - I was at his 95th birthday last year > and we often have fun talking about the good old days! > > cheers, > > Nigel Johnson > > > On 29/03/2020 16:59, Diane Bruce via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 09:47:51AM +1300, Brendan McNeill via cctech > wrote: > >> Here in NZ and around the world many of us are in lockdown and spending > more time on our computers, if that were possible. I have just completed > the restoration of a PDP-8 Straight 8 which I believe is the only one in > New Zealand. You can view the restoration story and find appropriate > resources here: https://pdp-8.nz > >> > >> While it plays Chess, it would be great if someone wanted to write > (say) a Prime Number Generator, or some other application and email it to > me off list. I have Focal-69 and can probably source other languages for > this wonderful old machine with 4K of memory. > > I have memories of keying in RIM and BIN. Long long time ago. I also > learned > > how to talk to the OS/8 file system so we could play morse code from a > file > > instead of a paper tape for our University club station. ;) > > > >> --------------//---------------- > >> brendan at mcneill.co.nz > >> +64 21 881 883 > >> > >> > >> > >> > > 73 de VA3DB for those that care ;) > > > > -- > Nigel Johnson > MSc., MIEEE > VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > > > You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 > > If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday > > This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route > from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by > any number of system administrators along the way. > Nigel Johnson > > > Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print > this message > > > > From bob at jfcl.com Sun Mar 29 17:15:14 2020 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 15:15:14 -0700 Subject: H7874 power supply In-Reply-To: <023701d6060d$aeaca5a0$0c05f0e0$@ntlworld.com> References: <006501d60569$692314a0$3b693de0$@com> <01e301d60594$cc97afc0$65c70f40$@ntlworld.com> <003301d605d8$76603660$6320a320$@com> <002201d605f5$e6f8a6b0$b4e9f410$@com> <023701d6060d$aeaca5a0$0c05f0e0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <005e01d60617$856e2150$904a63f0$@com> Remembering that I have the R400x enclosure and I'm only interested in powering disk drives - I looked up the specs for the RF7x drives, and they all use about 1.5A at 5V and 2.5-3A operating at 12V. There's a 5-6A spinup surge on the 12V supply, but as long as you spin them up in sequence you can probably gloss over that. Anyway, I have 4xRF7x drives and two SCSI drives, so figure maybe 20A at 12V and 10A at 5V. That's entirely doable with an ATX supply. The fans, annoyingly, are 24VDC so those would either have to be replaced with 12V fans or I'd have to kludge up an extra 24V supply. My next step was to figure out the pinout of the connectors on the back of the H7874. The big, high current, pins aren't marked anywhere inside the H7874 that I could find but, conveniently, they ARE marked on the R400x backplane. There are also a couple of high density connectors sandwiched in between the power pins; the lower one doesn't appear to be used but the upper one has a few connections. From looking at the backplane it appears that only four pins in the upper connector are actually connected. That's a guess though, because I can't see that back side of the backplane. I needed to see more of the backplane to figure out where these four connections went, so I removed all the drives from the R400x. Then, on a whim, I stuck the H7874 back in there and tried to power it up. It works! It appears that I don't have a bad power supply after all; I have a bad drive somewhere. Don't I feel silly :) So I don't need to fool with the ATX supply after all, or at least not until my PS really does die. Thanks for the help, and sorry for the false alarm. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Rob Jarratt [mailto:robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com] Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 2:05 PM To: bob at jfcl.com; 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts'; 'Maciej W. Rozycki' Cc: rob at jarratt.me.uk Subject: RE: H7874 power supply I have some notes I made about trying a PC PSU, I don't think it really worked, there are signals to indicate power OK and perhaps others. But perhaps a more concerted effort might yield something that could work. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech On Behalf Of Robert > Armstrong via cctech > Sent: 29 March 2020 19:15 > To: 'Maciej W. Rozycki' ; 'General Discussion: On- > Topic Posts' > Cc: rob at jarratt.me.uk > Subject: RE: H7874 power supply > > >Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > >numerous Chemi-Con SXF parts scattered across all boards, some leaking > > Yeah, mine is full of "Nippon Chemi-Con" electrolytic too. > > What about just gutting the PS chassis and sticking in an ATX power supply? I > don't know how the maximum current per output breaks down, but as I > understand it the H7874 is only a 600W supply. That's not a problem for an > ATX supply, and it would have all the required output voltages. You'd have to > run the cabinet fans at a fixed speed and you'd lose the power control bus > feature, but that's not a show stopper. > > Actually my unit is in an R400x chassis full of RF drives, so I believe I only need > +12 and +5. I don't think the 3.3v and -12 are used in that case. I wonder how > much current I really need for the drives? I should look that up and I might be > able to find a surplus dual output supply that would do the job. > > Thanks again, > Bob From mechanic_2 at charter.net Sun Mar 29 17:27:09 2020 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 17:27:09 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 Straight 8 restoration In-Reply-To: <20200329205914.GC15412@night.db.net> References: <20200329205914.GC15412@night.db.net> Message-ID: <5E8120BD.6060207@charter.net> Diane, Very nicely done. I read the whole thing. GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 3/29/2020 3:59 PM, Diane Bruce via cctech wrote: > On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 09:47:51AM +1300, Brendan McNeill via cctech wrote: >> Here in NZ and around the world many of us are in lockdown and spending more time on our computers, if that were possible. I have just completed the restoration of a PDP-8 Straight 8 which I believe is the only one in New Zealand. You can view the restoration story and find appropriate resources here: https://pdp-8.nz >> >> While it plays Chess, it would be great if someone wanted to write (say) a Prime Number Generator, or some other application and email it to me off list. I have Focal-69 and can probably source other languages for this wonderful old machine with 4K of memory. > I have memories of keying in RIM and BIN. Long long time ago. I also learned > how to talk to the OS/8 file system so we could play morse code from a file > instead of a paper tape for our University club station. ;) > >> --------------//---------------- >> brendan at mcneill.co.nz >> +64 21 881 883 >> >> >> >> > 73 de VA3DB for those that care ;) From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Mar 30 00:22:20 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 05:22:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: help needed: Document scan of ISS Sperry Univac Driver Exerciser avalaible for bitsavers upload In-Reply-To: References: <1312843617.5856830.1585306530747.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1312843617.5856830.1585306530747@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1751428495.585721.1585545740435@mail.yahoo.com> which? iss? drive? the? 10 plotter? 20 meg one?? ?Ed# In a message dated 3/27/2020 5:12:08 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: On 3/27/20 3:55 AM, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: > I contacted two times Al via email for access credentials to upload the document as I did in the past years for numerous scans, but I never got an answer. private msg sent sorry, things have been crazy From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Mar 30 01:30:56 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 07:30:56 +0100 Subject: Split Ceramic Disk Capacitor In-Reply-To: <01RJ3HR5J1X08X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie> References: <023801d60619$a4b12470$ee136d50$@ntlworld.com> <01RJ3HR5J1X08X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <026601d6065c$c58935f0$509ba1d0$@ntlworld.com> I don't know, but thanks for pointing out that it might not be a capacitor. I have two more VLCs so I will open them up and see what the markings are, the markings on this one are almost illegible. Thanks Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Peter Coghlan via > cctalk > Sent: 30 March 2020 00:56 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Split Ceramic Disk Capacitor > > > > > Since I am forced to stay at home more than I would like I though I > > would check some more PSUs. One I wanted to check was the H7109-C from > > one of my VAXstation 4000 VLC machines. I found a leaked capacitor and > > some other high ESR ones, so I will replace those. However, I also > > noticed a ceramic disk capacitor that appears to be split all around > > the edge. Is that a known failure mode? > > > > Is it definately a capacitor? > > I've had some damaged surge arrestors / MOVs / VDRs that look very similar to > ceramic disc capacitors. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Mar 30 01:49:10 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 06:49:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: help needed: Document scan of ISS Sperry Univac Driver Exerciser avalaible for bitsavers upload In-Reply-To: <1751428495.585721.1585545740435@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1312843617.5856830.1585306530747.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1312843617.5856830.1585306530747@mail.yahoo.com> <1751428495.585721.1585545740435@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <947224435.605008.1585550950743@mail.yahoo.com> I mean---- which? iss? drive? the? 10 platter pack.....? the? 20 meg one?? ?Ed# In a message dated 3/29/2020 10:22:30 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: which? iss? drive? the? 10 plotter? 20 meg one?? ?Ed# In a message dated 3/27/2020 5:12:08 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: On 3/27/20 3:55 AM, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: > I contacted two times Al via email for access credentials to upload the document as I did in the past years for numerous scans, but I never got an answer. private msg sent sorry, things have been crazy From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Mon Mar 30 05:25:37 2020 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 10:25:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: help needed: Document scan of ISS Sperry Univac Driver Exerciser avalaible for bitsavers upload In-Reply-To: <947224435.605008.1585550950743@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1312843617.5856830.1585306530747.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1312843617.5856830.1585306530747@mail.yahoo.com> <1751428495.585721.1585545740435@mail.yahoo.com> <947224435.605008.1585550950743@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1834285963.1772302.1585563937359@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Ed, this exerciser supports the ISS 7330-type of drives, which come with capacities of 100MBytes and 200MBytes on 10-platter-placks (they are IBM-3336 equivalents). Best regards, Pierre ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.digitalheritage.de Am Montag, 30. M?rz 2020, 08:49:23 MESZ hat ED SHARPE via cctalk Folgendes geschrieben: ? I mean---- which? iss? drive? the? 10 platter pack.....? the? 20 meg one?? ?Ed# In a message dated 3/29/2020 10:22:30 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: which? iss? drive? the? 10 plotter? 20 meg one?? ?Ed# In a message dated 3/27/2020 5:12:08 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: On 3/27/20 3:55 AM, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: > I contacted two times Al via email for access credentials to upload the document as I did in the past years for numerous scans, but I never got an answer. private msg sent sorry, things have been crazy From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Mar 30 05:30:00 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 10:30:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: help needed: Document scan of ISS Sperry Univac Driver Exerciser avalaible for bitsavers upload In-Reply-To: <1834285963.1772302.1585563937359@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1312843617.5856830.1585306530747.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1312843617.5856830.1585306530747@mail.yahoo.com> <1751428495.585721.1585545740435@mail.yahoo.com> <947224435.605008.1585550950743@mail.yahoo.com> <1834285963.1772302.1585563937359@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <640830736.634305.1585564200842@mail.yahoo.com> ok? that? is? the? larger? ones... we? are? trying? to? fill a? whole in a? display we? are seeking the? 20 meg? iss? graves? 10 platter.? ? the? 40 meg that looks? the? same? is? ok? too? ?for a? visual... If? anyone? was? one? let? us? know... it? ?completes a museum display....? ?even? better? yet? wold? e? ? the HP? branded? version of? ?it the? 2883? ? or lesser? ?2884? or? the? 40 meg? 2888? thank s? ?Ed#? ? smecc In a message dated 3/30/2020 3:25:43 AM US Mountain Standard Time, p.gebhardt at ymail.com writes: Hi Ed, this exerciser supports the ISS 7330-type of drives, which come with capacities of 100MBytes and 200MBytes on 10-platter-placks (they are IBM-3336 equivalents). Best regards, Pierre ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.digitalheritage.de Am Montag, 30. M?rz 2020, 08:49:23 MESZ hat ED SHARPE via cctalk Folgendes geschrieben: ? I mean---- which? iss? drive? the? 10 platter pack.....? the? 20 meg one?? ?Ed# In a message dated 3/29/2020 10:22:30 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: which? iss? drive? the? 10 plotter? 20 meg one?? ?Ed# In a message dated 3/27/2020 5:12:08 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: On 3/27/20 3:55 AM, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: > I contacted two times Al via email for access credentials to upload the document as I did in the past years for numerous scans, but I never got an answer. private msg sent sorry, things have been crazy From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Mar 30 01:39:36 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 07:39:36 +0100 Subject: H7874 power supply In-Reply-To: <005e01d60617$856e2150$904a63f0$@com> References: <006501d60569$692314a0$3b693de0$@com> <01e301d60594$cc97afc0$65c70f40$@ntlworld.com> <003301d605d8$76603660$6320a320$@com> <002201d605f5$e6f8a6b0$b4e9f410$@com> <023701d6060d$aeaca5a0$0c05f0e0$@ntlworld.com> <005e01d60617$856e2150$904a63f0$@com> Message-ID: <026701d6065d$fb47cc00$f1d76400$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech On Behalf Of Robert > Armstrong via cctech > Sent: 29 March 2020 23:15 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts' > ; 'Maciej W. Rozycki' > Subject: RE: H7874 power supply > > Remembering that I have the R400x enclosure and I'm only interested in > powering disk drives - I looked up the specs for the RF7x drives, and they all use > about 1.5A at 5V and 2.5-3A operating at 12V. There's a 5-6A spinup surge on > the 12V supply, but as long as you spin them up in sequence you can probably > gloss over that. Anyway, I have 4xRF7x drives and two SCSI drives, so figure > maybe 20A at 12V and 10A at 5V. That's entirely doable with an ATX supply. > > The fans, annoyingly, are 24VDC so those would either have to be replaced > with 12V fans or I'd have to kludge up an extra 24V supply. > > My next step was to figure out the pinout of the connectors on the back of the > H7874. The big, high current, pins aren't marked anywhere inside the H7874 > that I could find but, conveniently, they ARE marked on the R400x backplane. > There are also a couple of high density connectors sandwiched in between the > power pins; the lower one doesn't appear to be used but the upper one has a > few connections. From looking at the backplane it appears that only four pins > in the upper connector are actually connected. That's a guess though, because > I can't see that back side of the backplane. > > I needed to see more of the backplane to figure out where these four > connections went, so I removed all the drives from the R400x. Then, on a > whim, I stuck the H7874 back in there and tried to power it up. It works! It > appears that I don't have a bad power supply after all; I have a bad drive > somewhere. Don't I feel silly :) > I would just say that you must be hugely relieved! Looks like for this enclosure an ATX supply could well work. For my VAX my notes say it didn't. It would still be worth checking the ESR on the electrolytic capacitors and replacing any suspect ones while you are at it. > So I don't need to fool with the ATX supply after all, or at least not until my PS > really does die. Thanks for the help, and sorry for the false alarm. > > Bob > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rob Jarratt [mailto:robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com] > Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2020 2:05 PM > To: bob at jfcl.com; 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts'; 'Maciej W. Rozycki' > Cc: rob at jarratt.me.uk > Subject: RE: H7874 power supply > > I have some notes I made about trying a PC PSU, I don't think it really worked, > there are signals to indicate power OK and perhaps others. But perhaps a more > concerted effort might yield something that could work. > > Regards > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctech On Behalf Of Robert > > Armstrong via cctech > > Sent: 29 March 2020 19:15 > > To: 'Maciej W. Rozycki' ; 'General Discussion: > > On- Topic Posts' > > Cc: rob at jarratt.me.uk > > Subject: RE: H7874 power supply > > > > >Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > > >numerous Chemi-Con SXF parts scattered across all boards, some > > >leaking > > > > Yeah, mine is full of "Nippon Chemi-Con" electrolytic too. > > > > What about just gutting the PS chassis and sticking in an ATX power > > supply? I don't know how the maximum current per output breaks down, > > but as I understand it the H7874 is only a 600W supply. That's not a > > problem for an ATX supply, and it would have all the required output > > voltages. You'd have to run the cabinet fans at a fixed speed and > > you'd lose the power control bus feature, but that's not a show stopper. > > > > Actually my unit is in an R400x chassis full of RF drives, so I > > believe I only need > > +12 and +5. I don't think the 3.3v and -12 are used in that case. I > > +wonder how > > much current I really need for the drives? I should look that up and > > I might be able to find a surplus dual output supply that would do the job. > > > > Thanks again, > > Bob From db at db.net Mon Mar 30 09:13:04 2020 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 10:13:04 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 Straight 8 restoration In-Reply-To: References: <20200329205914.GC15412@night.db.net> <20200329230956.GA17021@night.db.net> Message-ID: <20200330141304.GC26863@night.db.net> On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 05:33:35PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > On Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 5:10 PM Diane Bruce via cctalk > wrote: > ... > > He was lucky the card deck was in order. One of my first jobs was to read > in old, horrible FORTRAN IV from punch card, then check it against a > listing the boss had and edit to match... This was the same place we wrote A dropped card deck was disaster and how many folks filled in columns 73 to 80 with an index? Not very many. :-( > malloc for FORTRAN and passed around all kinds of crazy data structures > that offset into the malloc arena so it would run on both the pdp-11 and > the vax... Ah yes the LARGE array with indexes used as pointers trick. *ugh* I remember. I also remember the implementation of Fortran on the university computer one could abuse the assigned goto and have it execute your own assembler code on the fly. ;) > > Warner > Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Mar 30 09:58:46 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 10:58:46 -0400 Subject: APL-11 Message-ID: Haven't given up on DIBOL. May try installing the RT-11 version and see if it runs. But now another language of interest has reared its ugly head. :-) Anybody have an image of the tape for APL-11? Manual claims it runs on all of the PDP-11 OSes and it is another language from my past that I haven't touched (other than to read some programs out of curiosity) in more than two decades. I have the source to something called APL-11 for Unix but it is not the same thing. Actually, not even close. :-) Would love to see a few pointers. Oh, and in case anyone is curious about my endeavors.... The SIMH system I am using now is based on the 11/70 and was built with only 2M of memory. Why you would do that under SIMH where there is really no memory constraint at all, I can not fathom. I used to have a bunch of 11/44's and that has been my favorite since my original 11/24 system died long, long ago./ I am going to configure a SIMH System using the 11/44 as my model and then reinstall everything in order to have a really good system for playing with this stuff. Sure wish there was a way to find some of the third party stuff from the sourcebooks. A lot of nice software that should have been saved for historical reasons, if nothing else, has been lost. bill From db at db.net Mon Mar 30 10:07:43 2020 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 11:07:43 -0400 Subject: APL-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200330150743.GA28100@night.db.net> On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 10:58:46AM -0400, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > Haven't given up on DIBOL. May try installing the RT-11 version and > see if it runs. > > But now another language of interest has reared its ugly head. :-) > > Anybody have an image of the tape for APL-11? Manual claims it > runs on all of the PDP-11 OSes and it is another language from > my past that I haven't touched (other than to read some programs > out of curiosity) in more than two decades. Oh neat! Be sure you have the special keyboard and character set for it! e.g. just overlays for the keyboard. I remember interfacing our universities APL interpreter with some glue assembler to the file system adding a new T bar. ;) > > Sure wish there was a way to find some of the third party stuff from > the sourcebooks. A lot of nice software that should have been saved > for historical reasons, if nothing else, has been lost. :-( > > bill Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From imp at bsdimp.com Mon Mar 30 10:31:56 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 09:31:56 -0600 Subject: PDP-8 Straight 8 restoration In-Reply-To: <20200330141304.GC26863@night.db.net> References: <20200329205914.GC15412@night.db.net> <20200329230956.GA17021@night.db.net> <20200330141304.GC26863@night.db.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 8:13 AM Diane Bruce wrote: > On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 05:33:35PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 5:10 PM Diane Bruce via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > ... > > > > He was lucky the card deck was in order. One of my first jobs was to read > > in old, horrible FORTRAN IV from punch card, then check it against a > > listing the boss had and edit to match... This was the same place we > wrote > > A dropped card deck was disaster and how many folks filled in columns 73 > to 80 > with an index? Not very many. :-( > Worse: 80% of the cards had that, but the other 20% didn't since they were later bug fixes. The decks that I had to verify were from the "in the barn" days of the company and had sat in storage for a few years. People would remove cards from the top box in the stack to show visitors and weren't great about putting them back exactly in order... So when the boss, who was sure he did a program just like that back "when he was running this place out of my barn," discovered things weren't perfect it fell to me to 'fix' it because I was minimum wage high school kid help... No totally dropped decks, at least, and once I got them read into the computer I could edit them with a semi-real editor (visual TECO at a glorious 4800 baud). and I learned a lot about FORTRAN and just how bad it could be (the boss was a great businessman, much better than his FORTRAN prowess). > > malloc for FORTRAN and passed around all kinds of crazy data structures > > that offset into the malloc arena so it would run on both the pdp-11 and > > the vax... > > Ah yes the LARGE array with indexes used as pointers trick. *ugh* I > remember. > Yea. And ugly tricks to overlay/alias heap1, heap2 and heap4 (which were for byte, word and longword access respectively). And converting between the different "pointer" types. It was helle ugly... But pointers in C that I learned a few years later were a piece of cake in comparison... Thankfully none of the boss' code was like this, and it got left behind when they moved to this code base. > I also remember the implementation of Fortran on the university computer > one could abuse the assigned goto and have it execute your own assembler > code on the fly. ;) > Ha! We had some assembler for the most time critical bits, but we wrote that in MACRO-11 directly and linked it in. Warner > > > > Warner > > > > Diane > -- > - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db > From db at db.net Mon Mar 30 10:41:35 2020 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 11:41:35 -0400 Subject: Fortran (Was Re: PDP-8 Straight 8 restoration) In-Reply-To: References: <20200329205914.GC15412@night.db.net> <20200329230956.GA17021@night.db.net> <20200330141304.GC26863@night.db.net> Message-ID: <20200330154135.GA28760@night.db.net> On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 09:31:56AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 8:13 AM Diane Bruce wrote: > > > On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 05:33:35PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 5:10 PM Diane Bruce via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > > wrote: > > > > > ... ... > > > > A dropped card deck was disaster and how many folks filled in columns 73 > > to 80 > > with an index? Not very many. :-( > > > > Worse: 80% of the cards had that, but the other 20% didn't since they were > later bug fixes. > > The decks that I had to verify were from the "in the barn" days of the > company and had sat in storage for a few years. People would remove cards > from the top box in the stack to show visitors and weren't great about > putting them back exactly in order... So when the boss, who was sure he And the cards bent due to humidity and stuck together while you read them right? > semi-real editor (visual TECO at a glorious 4800 baud). and I learned a lot > about FORTRAN and just how bad it could be (the boss was a great > businessman, much better than his FORTRAN prowess). The worst Fortran I remember was from Scientists. I got to fix some of that back in the day. Nowadays a lot of them learn C/C++ and are not horrible coders now. Early Fortran as you remember was pretty easy to turn into spaghetti code. WATFOR and IFTRAN helped. > > Ah yes the LARGE array with indexes used as pointers trick. *ugh* I > > remember. > > > > Yea. And ugly tricks to overlay/alias heap1, heap2 and heap4 (which were > for byte, word and longword access respectively). And converting between > the different "pointer" types. It was helle ugly... But pointers in C that Yep. yep. > I learned a few years later were a piece of cake in comparison... Pointers were a treat compared to the horrible Fortran mess and was very appreciated. > > Ha! We had some assembler for the most time critical bits, but we wrote > that in MACRO-11 directly and linked it in. Yep. BTDT I did a lot of 'raw' MACRO-11 too. > > Warner Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From bob at jfcl.com Mon Mar 30 09:17:14 2020 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 07:17:14 -0700 Subject: H7874 power supply In-Reply-To: <026701d6065d$fb47cc00$f1d76400$@ntlworld.com> References: <006501d60569$692314a0$3b693de0$@com> <01e301d60594$cc97afc0$65c70f40$@ntlworld.com> <003301d605d8$76603660$6320a320$@com> <002201d605f5$e6f8a6b0$b4e9f410$@com> <023701d6060d$aeaca5a0$0c05f0e0$@ntlworld.com> <005e01d60617$856e2150$904a63f0$@com> <026701d6065d$fb47cc00$f1d76400$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <003a01d6069d$e97d8d80$bc78a880$@com> >Looks like for this enclosure an ATX supply could well work. > For my VAX my notes say it didn't. A VAX would certainly be harder. You'd have to kludge up the ACOK and DCOK signals for one thing, which I don't think the R400x uses. It'd be really handy to find even a schematic for the backplane so we could see which signals are actually connected, but I did some searching and came up with nothing. Oh, and I did try to power up the H7874 on the bench for testing, but it wouldn't turn on there either. It probably has a minimum load requirement, or it needs some signal from the backplane to turn on. FWIW, the R400x does not have a power switch - the only way to turn it on or off is thru the H7874, either by the circuit breaker or the power control bus. The R400x also has several large power resistors on the M7493 SCSI connector module; those may be there to provide a minimum load for the power supply. Bob From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Mar 30 11:06:46 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 12:06:46 -0400 Subject: APL-11 In-Reply-To: <20200330150743.GA28100@night.db.net> References: <20200330150743.GA28100@night.db.net> Message-ID: On 3/30/20 11:07 AM, Diane Bruce wrote: > On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 10:58:46AM -0400, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >> Haven't given up on DIBOL. May try installing the RT-11 version and >> see if it runs. >> >> But now another language of interest has reared its ugly head. :-) >> >> Anybody have an image of the tape for APL-11? Manual claims it >> runs on all of the PDP-11 OSes and it is another language from >> my past that I haven't touched (other than to read some programs >> out of curiosity) in more than two decades. > > Oh neat! Be sure you have the special keyboard and character set for it! > e.g. just overlays for the keyboard. Actually, it supports using a standard ASCII keyboard as well as Tek 4013 terminals. I used other APL systems that did likewise, usually by using di-graphs. bill From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Mar 30 11:24:06 2020 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 09:24:06 -0700 Subject: APL-11 In-Reply-To: <20200330150743.GA28100@night.db.net> References: <20200330150743.GA28100@night.db.net> Message-ID: <0343a72a26fe2fd847fc1fd8a6b3142fb0eb7c5a.camel@shiresoft.com> On Mon, 2020-03-30 at 11:07 -0400, Diane Bruce via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 10:58:46AM -0400, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Haven't given up on DIBOL. May try installing the RT-11 version > > and > > see if it runs. > > > > But now another language of interest has reared its ugly head. :-) > > > > Anybody have an image of the tape for APL-11? Manual claims it > > runs on all of the PDP-11 OSes and it is another language from > > my past that I haven't touched (other than to read some programs > > out of curiosity) in more than two decades. > > Oh neat! Be sure you have the special keyboard and character set for > it! > e.g. just overlays for the keyboard. I have a DEC Writer III with the APL character set ROM and the APL keyboard! Just need to hook it up to something that has APL on it and will generate the correct character sequences. ;-) TTFN - Guy From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Mar 30 11:34:45 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 09:34:45 -0700 Subject: APL-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <75ba0f11-858e-9c6f-8b3b-5e6e3f4f8453@bitsavers.org> On 3/30/20 7:58 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Anybody have an image of the tape for APL-11? APL-11 was released through DECUS. Here is the RSX-11 version http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RSX-11/freeware/decus/rsx85a/370360/ From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Mar 30 11:49:47 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 12:49:47 -0400 Subject: H7874 power supply In-Reply-To: <003a01d6069d$e97d8d80$bc78a880$@com> References: <006501d60569$692314a0$3b693de0$@com> <01e301d60594$cc97afc0$65c70f40$@ntlworld.com> <003301d605d8$76603660$6320a320$@com> <002201d605f5$e6f8a6b0$b4e9f410$@com> <023701d6060d$aeaca5a0$0c05f0e0$@ntlworld.com> <005e01d60617$856e2150$904a63f0$@com> <026701d6065d$fb47cc00$f1d76400$@ntlworld.com> <003a01d6069d$e97d8d80$bc78a880$@com> Message-ID: <06FAFC09-0BF4-43EF-A44C-A3B2998691C4@comcast.net> > On Mar 30, 2020, at 10:17 AM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote: > >> Looks like for this enclosure an ATX supply could well work. >> For my VAX my notes say it didn't. > > A VAX would certainly be harder. You'd have to kludge up the ACOK and DCOK signals for one thing, which I don't think the R400x uses. Thise signals don't seem like a problem: just hardwire them to the desired logic level. PDP-11s need a real functioning DCOK signal iff you want to do power fail interrupt handling, otherwise they don't. Do VAXen have power fail interrupt? If yes, does anyone actually use it? paul From nw.johnson at ieee.org Mon Mar 30 11:52:11 2020 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 12:52:11 -0400 Subject: H7874 power supply In-Reply-To: <06FAFC09-0BF4-43EF-A44C-A3B2998691C4@comcast.net> References: <006501d60569$692314a0$3b693de0$@com> <01e301d60594$cc97afc0$65c70f40$@ntlworld.com> <003301d605d8$76603660$6320a320$@com> <002201d605f5$e6f8a6b0$b4e9f410$@com> <023701d6060d$aeaca5a0$0c05f0e0$@ntlworld.com> <005e01d60617$856e2150$904a63f0$@com> <026701d6065d$fb47cc00$f1d76400$@ntlworld.com> <003a01d6069d$e97d8d80$bc78a880$@com> <06FAFC09-0BF4-43EF-A44C-A3B2998691C4@comcast.net> Message-ID: Vectoring through 24 was very important back in the core memory days when the memory would still be there after a power failure and you wnated the system to keep running, as was our Ontario Bellboy paging controller. cheers, Nigel On 30/03/2020 12:49, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Mar 30, 2020, at 10:17 AM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote: >> >>> Looks like for this enclosure an ATX supply could well work. >>> For my VAX my notes say it didn't. >> A VAX would certainly be harder. You'd have to kludge up the ACOK and DCOK signals for one thing, which I don't think the R400x uses. > Thise signals don't seem like a problem: just hardwire them to the desired logic level. PDP-11s need a real functioning DCOK signal iff you want to do power fail interrupt handling, otherwise they don't. Do VAXen have power fail interrupt? If yes, does anyone actually use it? > > paul > > -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From nw.johnson at ieee.org Mon Mar 30 11:35:47 2020 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 12:35:47 -0400 Subject: Fortran (Was Re: PDP-8 Straight 8 restoration) In-Reply-To: <20200330154135.GA28760@night.db.net> References: <20200329205914.GC15412@night.db.net> <20200329230956.GA17021@night.db.net> <20200330141304.GC26863@night.db.net> <20200330154135.GA28760@night.db.net> Message-ID: Since we are all at home exchanging stories, I thought I would regale you with my best punch card one: My first job out of school was at Bell Canada in? Downtown Toronto. I was trained as an FE on their Univac 418 II systems that ran a Canada-wide store-and-forward MSDS - Message Switching Data Service (MSDS - means something else now!)? I also got trained on the PDP11, then PDP8, and Interdata 50. The year was 1972 or '73 I think. Since there was very little operating to do with a real-time system, we didn't have operators and did all the operating ourselves.? One system ran H23 (it had to be shutdown for maintenance over midnight because the system would crash if the time went backwards after midnight), the other, use by stockbrokers and the T. Eaton Company started at 0600 and was turned down at 2100. Being critical real time (after all, it fed about a thousand 110 baud teletypes across Canada :-) ) it would crash sometimes due to racing conditions that had not been forecast.? Instead of re-assembling the system (about four hours), the programmers would issue us with PARLO (PARameter LOader) cards to make patches after we loaded the enterprise code and before we started it.? This fixed the bugs by binary changes. One morning, I was on duty as the 0600 system crashed immediately after I started it.? As trained, I switched all the peripherals over to the backup machine and loaded the program on there, carrying the PARLO cards over and running them before I started that system.? Same crash happened, while the panic dump was still running between the first computer and the Uniservo VI C. Lots more attempts happened, including running heavy cables across the floor to patch in spares that were not on the transfer switch, until first, second, and finally third level managers were standing behind me as I tried new things.? "A 20-year old does not need this kind of stress", I thought! Upper management wanted to 'get somebody else' to work the computer by my boss told me to stand fast.? Suddenly, I had an idea.? We had an old IBM 028 punch sitting at the back of the room. "Go and copy these PARLO cards" I said to the programmer.? She scowled at being told what to do by this young kid, especially since she was management and I was not. But as nobody had any better ideas the managers told her to do it. Thankfully, my idea that the PARLO cards were worn thin so that the photo readers could see holes where there were not, was accurate.? The 028 used fingers to feel for the holes and so made a perfect copy! After that they instituted a policy of changing the PARLO cards or re-assembling on a regular basis! The attachment is a picture of where this happened. cheers, Nigel Johnson On 30/03/2020 11:41, Diane Bruce wrote: > On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 09:31:56AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: >> On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 8:13 AM Diane Bruce wrote: >> >>> On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 05:33:35PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: >>>> On Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 5:10 PM Diane Bruce via cctalk < >>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>> ... > ... >>> A dropped card deck was disaster and how many folks filled in columns 73 >>> to 80 >>> with an index? Not very many. :-( >>> >> Worse: 80% of the cards had that, but the other 20% didn't since they were >> later bug fixes. >> >> The decks that I had to verify were from the "in the barn" days of the >> company and had sat in storage for a few years. People would remove cards >> from the top box in the stack to show visitors and weren't great about >> putting them back exactly in order... So when the boss, who was sure he > And the cards bent due to humidity and stuck together while you read them right? > >> semi-real editor (visual TECO at a glorious 4800 baud). and I learned a lot >> about FORTRAN and just how bad it could be (the boss was a great >> businessman, much better than his FORTRAN prowess). > The worst Fortran I remember was from Scientists. I got to fix some of that > back in the day. Nowadays a lot of them learn C/C++ and are not horrible > coders now. Early Fortran as you remember was pretty easy to turn into spaghetti > code. WATFOR and IFTRAN helped. > >>> Ah yes the LARGE array with indexes used as pointers trick. *ugh* I >>> remember. >>> >> Yea. And ugly tricks to overlay/alias heap1, heap2 and heap4 (which were >> for byte, word and longword access respectively). And converting between >> the different "pointer" types. It was helle ugly... But pointers in C that > Yep. yep. > >> I learned a few years later were a piece of cake in comparison... > Pointers were a treat compared to the horrible Fortran mess and was very > appreciated. > >> Ha! We had some assembler for the most time critical bits, but we wrote >> that in MACRO-11 directly and linked it in. > Yep. BTDT I did a lot of 'raw' MACRO-11 too. > >> Warner > Diane -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From nw.johnson at ieee.org Mon Mar 30 12:26:11 2020 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 13:26:11 -0400 Subject: Fortran (Was Re: PDP-8 Straight 8 restoration) (Resubmitting without attachment) In-Reply-To: <20200330154135.GA28760@night.db.net> References: <20200329205914.GC15412@night.db.net> <20200329230956.GA17021@night.db.net> <20200330141304.GC26863@night.db.net> <20200330154135.GA28760@night.db.net> Message-ID: Since we are all at home exchanging stories, I thought I would regale you with my best punch card one: My first job out of school was at Bell Canada in? Downtown Toronto. I was trained as an FE on their Univac 418 II systems that ran a Canada-wide store-and-forward MSDS - Message Switching Data Service (MSDS - means something else now!)? I also got trained on the PDP11, then PDP8, and Interdata 50. The year was 1972 or '73 I think. Since there was very little operating to do with a real-time system, we didn't have operators and did all the operating ourselves.? One system ran H23 (it had to be shutdown for maintenance over midnight because the system would crash if the time went backwards after midnight), the other, use by stockbrokers and the T. Eaton Company started at 0600 and was turned down at 2100. Being critical real time (after all, it fed about a thousand 110 baud teletypes across Canada :-) ) it would crash sometimes due to racing conditions that had not been forecast.? Instead of re-assembling the system (about four hours), the programmers would issue us with PARLO (PARameter LOader) cards to make patches after we loaded the enterprise code and before we started it.? This fixed the bugs by binary changes. One morning, I was on duty as the 0600 system crashed immediately after I started it.? As trained, I switched all the peripherals over to the backup machine and loaded the program on there, carrying the PARLO cards over and running them before I started that system. Same crash happened, while the panic dump was still running between the first computer and the Uniservo VI C. Lots more attempts happened, including running heavy cables across the floor to patch in spares that were not on the transfer switch, until first, second, and finally third level managers were standing behind me as I tried new things.? "A 20-year old does not need this kind of stress", I thought! Upper management wanted to 'get somebody else' to work the computer by my boss told me to stand fast.? Suddenly, I had an idea.? We had an old IBM 028 punch sitting at the back of the room. "Go and copy these PARLO cards" I said to the programmer.? She scowled at being told what to do by this young kid, especially since she was management and I was not. But as nobody had any better ideas the managers told her to do it. Thankfully, my idea that the PARLO cards were worn thin so that the photo readers could see holes where there were not, was accurate. The 028 used fingers to feel for the holes and so made a perfect copy! After that they instituted a policy of changing the PARLO cards or re-assembling on a regular basis! The attachment is a picture of where this happened. cheers, Nigel Johnson On 30/03/2020 11:41, Diane Bruce wrote: > On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 09:31:56AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: >> On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 8:13 AM Diane Bruce wrote: >> >>> On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 05:33:35PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: >>>> On Sun, Mar 29, 2020, 5:10 PM Diane Bruce via cctalk < >>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>> ... > ... >>> A dropped card deck was disaster and how many folks filled in columns 73 >>> to 80 >>> with an index? Not very many. :-( >>> >> Worse: 80% of the cards had that, but the other 20% didn't since they >> were >> later bug fixes. >> >> The decks that I had to verify were from the "in the barn" days of the >> company and had sat in storage for a few years. People would remove cards >> from the top box in the stack to show visitors and weren't great about >> putting them back exactly in order... So when the boss, who was sure he > And the cards bent due to humidity and stuck together while you read > them right? > >> semi-real editor (visual TECO at a glorious 4800 baud). and I learned >> a lot >> about FORTRAN and just how bad it could be (the boss was a great >> businessman, much better than his FORTRAN prowess). > The worst Fortran I remember was from Scientists. I got to fix some of > that > back in the day. Nowadays a lot of them learn C/C++ and are not horrible > coders now. Early Fortran as you remember was pretty easy to turn into > spaghetti > code. WATFOR and IFTRAN helped. > >>> Ah yes the LARGE array with indexes used as pointers trick. *ugh* I >>> remember. >>> >> Yea. And ugly tricks to overlay/alias heap1, heap2 and heap4 (which were >> for byte, word and longword access respectively). And converting between >> the different "pointer" types. It was helle ugly... But pointers in C >> that > Yep. yep. > >> I learned a few years later were a piece of cake in comparison... > Pointers were a treat compared to the horrible Fortran mess and was very > appreciated. > >> Ha! We had some assembler for the most time critical bits, but we wrote >> that in MACRO-11 directly and linked it in. > Yep. BTDT I did a lot of 'raw' MACRO-11 too. > >> Warner > Diane -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Mar 30 12:38:42 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 13:38:42 -0400 Subject: APL-11 In-Reply-To: <75ba0f11-858e-9c6f-8b3b-5e6e3f4f8453@bitsavers.org> References: <75ba0f11-858e-9c6f-8b3b-5e6e3f4f8453@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 3/30/20 12:34 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 3/30/20 7:58 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > >> Anybody have an image of the tape for APL-11? > > APL-11 was released through DECUS. Here is the RSX-11 version > http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RSX-11/freeware/decus/rsx85a/370360/ Unfortunately, that appears to be yet a third version of APL using the name APL-11. According to the documentatio it will only run on RSX. The one I am looking for was written for DEC by OMSI and will run on all three OSes. It also appears to be more feature rich and supports ASCII as well as APL terminals. I am saddened more every day as I discover more and more of our history that has been lost. bill From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 30 12:53:54 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 10:53:54 -0700 Subject: Fortran (Was Re: PDP-8 Straight 8 restoration) (Resubmitting without attachment) In-Reply-To: References: <20200329205914.GC15412@night.db.net> <20200329230956.GA17021@night.db.net> <20200330141304.GC26863@night.db.net> <20200330154135.GA28760@night.db.net> Message-ID: I was preparing to make the leap and buy my first personal computer--a PDP-8/E back in the day. The attraction was not just the low price of around $5000, but the fact that there was FORTRAN available for it. DEC made a big deal of that in their promotions. Wrote an emulator for it (in FORTRAN, of course) and still have my copy of Introduction to Programming". Never got the machine, however--other things got in the way. I still routinely deal with FORTRAN (capitalize the name for dialects earlier than F90). It's still hard to beat for a portable, fast mathematical HLL. The big competitor back in the day from Europe, Algol, appears to have disappeared from collective consciousness. --Chuck From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Mar 30 13:13:09 2020 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 19:13:09 +0100 Subject: Split Ceramic Disk Capacitor In-Reply-To: <026601d6065c$c58935f0$509ba1d0$@ntlworld.com> References: <023801d60619$a4b12470$ee136d50$@ntlworld.com> <01RJ3HR5J1X08X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie> <026601d6065c$c58935f0$509ba1d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <000401d606be$debd7740$9c3865c0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt via > cctalk > Sent: 30 March 2020 07:31 > To: 'Peter Coghlan' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Split Ceramic Disk Capacitor > > I don't know, but thanks for pointing out that it might not be a capacitor. > I have two more VLCs so I will open them up and see what the markings are, > the markings on this one are almost illegible. > > Thanks > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Peter > > Coghlan > via > > cctalk > > Sent: 30 March 2020 00:56 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > Subject: Re: Split Ceramic Disk Capacitor > > > > > > > > Since I am forced to stay at home more than I would like I though I > > > would check some more PSUs. One I wanted to check was the H7109-C > > > from one of my VAXstation 4000 VLC machines. I found a leaked > > > capacitor and some other high ESR ones, so I will replace those. > > > However, I also noticed a ceramic disk capacitor that appears to be > > > split all around the edge. Is that a known failure mode? > > > > > > > Is it definately a capacitor? > > > > I've had some damaged surge arrestors / MOVs / VDRs that look very > > similar > to > > ceramic disc capacitors. I have just opened up one of my other VLC machines. The part in question is marked .0033M Z5U I guess this means a 3.3nF capacitor? Or will it mean 3.3uF? Thanks Rob > > > > Regards, > > Peter Coghlan. From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Mar 30 13:21:50 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 14:21:50 -0400 Subject: Split Ceramic Disk Capacitor In-Reply-To: <000401d606be$debd7740$9c3865c0$@ntlworld.com> References: <023801d60619$a4b12470$ee136d50$@ntlworld.com> <01RJ3HR5J1X08X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie> <026601d6065c$c58935f0$509ba1d0$@ntlworld.com> <000401d606be$debd7740$9c3865c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > On Mar 30, 2020, at 2:13 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > > I have just opened up one of my other VLC machines. The part in question is > marked > > .0033M > Z5U > > I guess this means a 3.3nF capacitor? Or will it mean 3.3uF? > > Thanks > > Rob I'd say 3.3 nF. M is probably a voltage rating. Odd for it to be split. I could just barely imagine that from mechanical stress. Or perhaps severe overvoltage. Where is this part used? paul From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon Mar 30 13:22:09 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 11:22:09 -0700 Subject: APL-11 In-Reply-To: References: <75ba0f11-858e-9c6f-8b3b-5e6e3f4f8453@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <093BD0BC-4D49-4E18-B039-8C6FB8B695B3@avanthar.com> > On Mar 30, 2020, at 10:38 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On 3/30/20 12:34 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> On 3/30/20 7:58 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >>> Anybody have an image of the tape for APL-11? >> APL-11 was released through DECUS. Here is the RSX-11 version >> http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RSX-11/freeware/decus/rsx85a/370360/ > > Unfortunately, that appears to be yet a third version of APL using the > name APL-11. According to the documentatio it will only run on RSX. > > The one I am looking for was written for DEC by OMSI and will run on > all three OSes. It also appears to be more feature rich and supports > ASCII as well as APL terminals. > > I am saddened more every day as I discover more and more of our history > that has been lost. > > bill Has anyone ever figured out what happened to all the OMSI software? The more I learn, the more I?m amazed. I?d love to know where in their old building they had PDP-11?s squirreled away. I spent a lot of time there in the 70?s and early 80?s, yet never realized they were doing all this. The software I?d really love to get access to is their graphical version of Wumpus. Zane From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Mon Mar 30 13:31:19 2020 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 13:31:19 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Split Ceramic Disk Capacitor In-Reply-To: References: <023801d60619$a4b12470$ee136d50$@ntlworld.com> <01RJ3HR5J1X08X6K5E@beyondthepale.ie> <026601d6065c$c58935f0$509ba1d0$@ntlworld.com> <000401d606be$debd7740$9c3865c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <65826445.492934.1585593079727@email.ionos.com> > > RobI'd say 3.3 nF. M is probably a voltage rating. > Odd for it to be split. I could just barely imagine that from mechanical stress. Or perhaps severe overvoltage. Where is this part used? > paul Tolerance rating -- +/- 20% https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/electronic_components/capacitors/capacitor-codes-markings.php Will From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Mar 30 13:37:09 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 13:37:09 -0500 Subject: H7874 power supply In-Reply-To: <06FAFC09-0BF4-43EF-A44C-A3B2998691C4@comcast.net> References: <006501d60569$692314a0$3b693de0$@com> <01e301d60594$cc97afc0$65c70f40$@ntlworld.com> <003301d605d8$76603660$6320a320$@com> <002201d605f5$e6f8a6b0$b4e9f410$@com> <023701d6060d$aeaca5a0$0c05f0e0$@ntlworld.com> <005e01d60617$856e2150$904a63f0$@com> <026701d6065d$fb47cc00$f1d76400$@ntlworld.com> <003a01d6069d$e97d8d80$bc78a880$@com> <06FAFC09-0BF4-43EF-A44C-A3B2998691C4@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5E823C55.5000103@pico-systems.com> On 03/30/2020 11:49 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> > Thise signals don't seem like a problem: just hardwire them to the desired logic level. PDP-11s need a real functioning DCOK signal iff you want to do power fail interrupt handling, otherwise they don't. Do VAXen have power fail interrupt? If yes, does anyone actually use it? > > The VAX 11/780 absolutely had power fail, and it DID work. You could just walk up to the CPU and turn the key to standby, and it would power down everything but the memory. When you turned the key back to on, it would power up, load microcode and resume the paused system image VERY smoothly. You could also power down the Unibus box, and it would recover all the devices and resume when you turned it back on. Anything tasks that ran off Massbus peripherals could keep running while the Unibus was off. I did this quite often while swapping I/O devices and such after device drivers became loadable. Jon From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Mar 30 14:17:25 2020 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 12:17:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fortran (Was Re: PDP-8 Straight 8 restoration) (Resubmitting without attachment) In-Reply-To: References: <20200329205914.GC15412@night.db.net> <20200329230956.GA17021@night.db.net> <20200330141304.GC26863@night.db.net> <20200330154135.GA28760@night.db.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Mar 2020, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I was preparing to make the leap and buy my first personal computer--a > PDP-8/E back in the day. The attraction was not just the low price of > around $5000, but the fact that there was FORTRAN available for it. DEC > made a big deal of that in their promotions. > > Wrote an emulator for it (in FORTRAN, of course) and still have my copy > of Introduction to Programming". Never got the machine, however--other > things got in the way. > I just finished uploading this: https://archive.org/details/fortrancodingform :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From mark at matlockfamily.com Mon Mar 30 13:37:57 2020 From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 13:37:57 -0500 Subject: REL APL-11 References: Message-ID: Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 10:58:46 -0400 > From: Bill Gunshannon > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > Subject: APL-11 > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > > Haven't given up on DIBOL. May try installing the RT-11 version and > see if it runs. > > But now another language of interest has reared its ugly head. :-) > > Anybody have an image of the tape for APL-11? Manual claims it > runs on all of the PDP-11 OSes and it is another language from > my past that I haven't touched (other than to read some programs > out of curiosity) in more than two decades. Bill, I have the APL-11 V2.1 source files on a RL02 disk image. I will make it available at http://www.rsx11m.com/apl11.zip Once you mount the disk image with Simh, the are two ready to run task images that will run under RSX11M or M+ In [201,200]APL6OK.TSK and APL7OK.TSK that are the REAL*4 and REAL*8 versions of APL-11. On the disk are the Original .MAC sources as well as files from a RSX SIG tape that modified APL-11 for I/D under RSX11M+ that increased The workspace (.BXWA from ~30000 to ~60000 bytes). It also contains a character set for Vt220 for the APL character set. When you install the APL task experiment with the /INC to maximize the available workspace, On my system, I can INS APL6.TSK/INC=37000 to max the workspace for the single precision version. Also, the scanned APL-11 reference manual can be downloaded at http://www.rsx11m.com/APL-11-Ref-Man.pdf and the APL11 installation guide at http://www.rsx11m.com/APL11ins.pdf The RSX SIG files that have the info to change APL-11 to an I/D RSX11M+ task are at [370,360] on the RL02 disk. I remember having this work back in the mid-1980s butI have not been able to get it to work today. If I link it with ODT it seems to blow up when the first overlay is loaded. If anyone could help with that I?d really appreciate it! Best, Mark > > I have the source to something called APL-11 for Unix but it is > not the same thing. Actually, not even close. :-) > > Would love to see a few pointers. > > Oh, and in case anyone is curious about my endeavors.... > The SIMH system I am using now is based on the 11/70 and was built > with only 2M of memory. Why you would do that under SIMH where there > is really no memory constraint at all, I can not fathom. I used to > have a bunch of 11/44's and that has been my favorite since my original > 11/24 system died long, long ago./ I am going to configure a SIMH > System using the 11/44 as my model and then reinstall everything in > order to have a really good system for playing with this stuff. > > Sure wish there was a way to find some of the third party stuff from > the sourcebooks. A lot of nice software that should have been saved > for historical reasons, if nothing else, has been lost. > > bill From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 14:02:56 2020 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 12:02:56 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 Straight 8 restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 1:48 PM Brendan McNeill via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Here in NZ and around the world many of us are in lockdown and spending > more time on our computers, if that were possible. I have just completed > the restoration of a PDP-8 Straight 8 which I believe is the only one in > New Zealand. You can view the restoration story and find appropriate > resources here: https://pdp-8.nz > Very nicely done, and an excellent write-up. That core memory repair was amazing. It's interesting to read about a PDP-8 with such a high failure rate -- I've personally worked on two straight-8 systems (one at LCM+L, and one in my personal collection) where relatively few component failures were found. I wonder what accounts for the difference -- batches of diodes more prone to failure, the environment the machines were stored in, or the number of years of service... > > While it plays Chess, it would be great if someone wanted to write (say) a > Prime Number Generator, or some other application and email it to me off > list. I have Focal-69 and can probably source other languages for this > wonderful old machine with 4K of memory. > There's a 4K LISP as well, though it's a pseudo-LISP-1.5 dialect so it's a bit different. - Josh > > --------------//---------------- > brendan at mcneill.co.nz > +64 21 881 883 > > > > > From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Mar 30 14:09:03 2020 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 12:09:03 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 Straight 8 restoration - failure modes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <638487fe-16cd-74e3-fa42-b56ad7923978@sbcglobal.net> On 3/30/2020 12:02 PM, Josh Dersch via cctech wrote: > On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 1:48 PM Brendan McNeill via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Here in NZ and around the world many of us are in lockdown and spending >> more time on our computers, if that were possible. I have just completed >> the restoration of a PDP-8 Straight 8 which I believe is the only one in >> New Zealand. You can view the restoration story and find appropriate >> resources here: https://pdp-8.nz >> > Very nicely done, and an excellent write-up. That core memory repair was > amazing. It's interesting to read about a PDP-8 with such a high failure > rate -- I've personally worked on two straight-8 systems (one at LCM+L, and > one in my personal collection) where relatively few component failures were > found. I wonder what accounts for the difference -- batches of diodes more > prone to failure, the environment the machines were stored in, or the > number of years of service... > > >> While it plays Chess, it would be great if someone wanted to write (say) a >> Prime Number Generator, or some other application and email it to me off >> list. I have Focal-69 and can probably source other languages for this >> wonderful old machine with 4K of memory. >> > There's a 4K LISP as well, though it's a pseudo-LISP-1.5 dialect so it's a > bit different. > > - Josh > > In restoring my PDP-8/s, diodes were the problem. Turns out they have steel leads that rust. Easy to see with a microscope. Badly rusted ones broke the glass body. I had to replace more than 200. Most turned into ~600 Ohm resistors, some open circuit. I'm sure I'm going to have to replace all of them over time. So how (and where) the machine was stored probably plays a big part in it's reliability. Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From mark at matlockfamily.com Mon Mar 30 14:21:17 2020 From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 14:21:17 -0500 Subject: REL APL-11 Message-ID: <8B7DCFBB-34D6-40A2-9C15-BBAFDD7CED5C@MatlockFamily.com> Bill, The APL-11 files on DECUS RSX85A are not a complete distribution but a modified version that was intended to run under I/D on M+. I have the APL-11 V2.1 source files on a RL02 disk image. I will make it available at http://www.rsx11m.com/apl11.zip Once you mount the disk image with Simh, the are two ready to run task images that will run under RSX11M or M+ In [201,200]APL6OK.TSK and APL7OK.TSK that are the REAL*4 and REAL*8 versions of APL-11. On the disk are the Original .MAC sources as well as files from a RSX SIG tape that modified APL-11 for I/D under RSX11M+ that increased The workspace (.BXWA from ~30000 to ~60000 bytes). It also contains a character set for Vt220 for the APL character set. When you install the APL task experiment with the /INC to maximize the available workspace, On my system, I can INS APL6.TSK/INC=37000 to max the workspace for the single precision version. Also, the scanned APL-11 reference manual can be downloaded at http://www.rsx11m.com/APL-11-Ref-Man.pdf and the APL11 installation guide at http://www.rsx11m.com/APL11ins.pdf The RSX SIG files that have the info to change APL-11 to an I/D RSX11M+ task from RSX85A are also at [370,360] on the RL02 disk. I remember having this work back in the mid-1980s but I have not been able to get it to work today. If I link it with ODT it seems to blow up when the first overlay is loaded. If anyone could help with that I?d really appreciate it! Best, Mark From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 14:49:05 2020 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 13:49:05 -0600 Subject: APL-11 In-Reply-To: <0343a72a26fe2fd847fc1fd8a6b3142fb0eb7c5a.camel@shiresoft.com> References: <20200330150743.GA28100@night.db.net> <0343a72a26fe2fd847fc1fd8a6b3142fb0eb7c5a.camel@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 10:24 AM Guy Sotomayor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I have a DEC Writer III with the APL character set ROM and the APL > keyboard! Just need to hook it up to something that has APL on it > and will generate the correct character sequences. ;-) > Cool! When you get a chance, could you please dump the DECwriter III ROMs? From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Mar 30 15:05:59 2020 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 13:05:59 -0700 Subject: APL-11 In-Reply-To: References: <20200330150743.GA28100@night.db.net> <0343a72a26fe2fd847fc1fd8a6b3142fb0eb7c5a.camel@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <41225d7e17e1171207517eade2ae3149ffe9ce5f.camel@shiresoft.com> I don't have an easy way to dump the ROMs at the moment. TTFN - Guy On Mon, 2020-03-30 at 13:49 -0600, Eric Smith wrote: > On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 10:24 AM Guy Sotomayor via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > I have a DEC Writer III with the APL character set ROM and the APL > > keyboard! Just need to hook it up to something that has APL on it > > and will generate the correct character sequences. ;-) > > Cool! When you get a chance, could you please dump the DECwriter III > ROMs? > From peters-cctech at techwiz.ca Mon Mar 30 15:07:53 2020 From: peters-cctech at techwiz.ca (Peter Sjoberg) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 16:07:53 -0400 Subject: LegacyOS.org Message-ID: <557fa025-9bd4-3888-6c5a-9e816b323a7b@techwiz.ca> I just stumbled over https://legacyos.org/ and checking here for what you say about it only to find out that it seems like you missed it. Have you all missed it or is it just not interesting ? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Techwiz, Peter Sjoberg GPG key (42DDDDDD) on keyserver & homepage Key fingerprint = EB81 3135 1636 576A DA83 826B 2455 0E88 42DD DDDD Homepage: http://www.techwiz.ca/~peters Pictures: http://www.flickr.com/photos/henahadu/ Enigma: http://meinEnigma.com From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Mar 30 17:19:57 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 18:19:57 -0400 Subject: LegacyOS.org In-Reply-To: <557fa025-9bd4-3888-6c5a-9e816b323a7b@techwiz.ca> References: <557fa025-9bd4-3888-6c5a-9e816b323a7b@techwiz.ca> Message-ID: On 3/30/20 4:07 PM, Peter Sjoberg via cctalk wrote: > I just stumbled over https://legacyos.org/ and checking here for what > you say about it only to find out that it seems like you missed it. > > Have you all missed it or is it just not interesting ? > I saw it mentioned on LinkedIn yesterday and checked it out this morning. Very limited concept of Legacy OSes. bill From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Mon Mar 30 18:06:47 2020 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 18:06:47 -0500 Subject: REL APL-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1a944308-24e3-7f08-73c0-32091dcebe60@thereinhardts.org> On 3/30/2020 1:37 PM, Mark Matlock via cctalk wrote: > > Bill, > I have the APL-11 V2.1 source files on a RL02 disk image. I will make it available at http://www.rsx11m.com/apl11.zip > > Once you mount the disk image with Simh, the are two ready to run task images that will run under RSX11M or M+ > In [201,200]APL6OK.TSK and APL7OK.TSK that are the REAL*4 and REAL*8 versions of APL-11. On the disk are the > Original .MAC sources as well as files from a RSX SIG tape that modified APL-11 for I/D under RSX11M+ that increased > The workspace (.BXWA from ~30000 to ~60000 bytes). It also contains a character set for Vt220 for the APL character set. > > When you install the APL task experiment with the /INC to maximize the available workspace, On my system, I can > INS APL6.TSK/INC=37000 to max the workspace for the single precision version. > > Also, the scanned APL-11 reference manual can be downloaded at http://www.rsx11m.com/APL-11-Ref-Man.pdf > and the APL11 installation guide at http://www.rsx11m.com/APL11ins.pdf > > The RSX SIG files that have the info to change APL-11 to an I/D RSX11M+ task are at [370,360] on the RL02 disk. I remember having this work back in the mid-1980s butI have not been able to get it to work today. If I link it with ODT it seems to blow up when the first overlay is loaded. If anyone could help with that I?d really appreciate it! > > Best, > Mark Thanks Mark! I remember we had APL at Rose-Hulman when I was in college there from 1978-1983.? At first I thought it was on the VAX-11/780 that showed up over the summer of 1980, but now I realize it had to have been on our PDP-11/70 running RSTS/E.? Probably APL-11 V1.X since it was there in the Fall of 1978 when I started.? We had a couple of DEC LA36's with the APL character set and keyboards. -- John H. Reinhardt From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Mon Mar 30 18:35:22 2020 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 18:35:22 -0500 Subject: REL APL-11 In-Reply-To: References: <1a944308-24e3-7f08-73c0-32091dcebe60@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: <3caaf0f0-ab62-ff04-688f-21f73924e008@thereinhardts.org> On 3/30/2020 6:29 PM, Marc Howard wrote: > Stupid question time.? I last used APL in a class in 1975.? Back then you needed a magic terminal and/or a magic Selectric typeball.? How does one input or print a program on a PDP-11 with mere mortal equipment? > > Thanks, > > Marc Howard > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 4:07 PM John H. Reinhardt via cctalk > wrote: > > On 3/30/2020 1:37 PM, Mark Matlock via cctalk wrote: > > > > Bill, > >? ? ? I have the APL-11 V2.1 source files on a RL02 disk image. I will make it available at http://www.rsx11m.com/apl11.zip > > > >? ? ? Once you mount the disk image with Simh, the are two ready to run task images that will run under RSX11M or M+ > > In [201,200]APL6OK.TSK and APL7OK.TSK that are the REAL*4 and REAL*8 versions of APL-11. On the disk are the > > Original .MAC sources as well as files from a RSX SIG tape that modified APL-11 for I/D under RSX11M+ that increased > > The workspace (.BXWA from ~30000 to ~60000 bytes). It also contains a character set for Vt220 for the APL character set. > > > >? ? ?When you install the APL task experiment with the /INC to maximize the available workspace, On my system, I can > > INS APL6.TSK/INC=37000 to max the workspace for the single precision version. > > > >? ? ?Also, the scanned APL-11 reference manual can be downloaded at http://www.rsx11m.com/APL-11-Ref-Man.pdf > >? ?and the APL11 installation guide at http://www.rsx11m.com/APL11ins.pdf > > > >? ? ?The RSX SIG files that have the info to change APL-11 to an I/D RSX11M+ task are at [370,360] on the RL02 disk. I remember having this work back in the mid-1980s butI have not been able to get it to work today. If I link it with ODT it seems to blow up when the first overlay is loaded. If anyone could help with that I?d really appreciate it! > > > > Best, > > Mark > > Thanks Mark! > > > I remember we had APL at Rose-Hulman when I was in college there from 1978-1983.? At first I thought it was on the VAX-11/780 that showed up over the summer of 1980, but now I realize it had to have been on our PDP-11/70 running RSTS/E. Probably APL-11 V1.X since it was there in the Fall of 1978 when I started.? We had a couple of DEC LA36's with the APL character set and keyboards. > > -- > John H. Reinhardt > Marc, ? On page 1-5 of the APL-11 Reference Manual that Mark posted there is a table showing the ACII equivalents for the special APL character set.? There are also instructions there on how to do it.? It's a combination of characters and backspaces.? Kinda tough on a video terminal but workable on a printer. -- John H. Reinhardt From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 21:51:56 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 22:51:56 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 Straight 8 restoration - failure modes In-Reply-To: <638487fe-16cd-74e3-fa42-b56ad7923978@sbcglobal.net> References: <638487fe-16cd-74e3-fa42-b56ad7923978@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 3:43 PM Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk wrote: > In restoring my PDP-8/s, diodes were the problem. Turns out they have > steel leads that rust. Easy to see with a microscope. > Badly rusted ones broke the glass body. Good to know. My PDP-8/S was stored indoors but my Straight-8 was in a storage locker for years before I got it. I have a stereo inspection microscope. I'll definitely peer at the diodes as part of the cleaning/evaluation process. But I also have to line up a bunch of spare bulbs. The leads on more than half of the ones on my -8/S are fractured where they enter the glass. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 21:51:56 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 22:51:56 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 Straight 8 restoration - failure modes In-Reply-To: <638487fe-16cd-74e3-fa42-b56ad7923978@sbcglobal.net> References: <638487fe-16cd-74e3-fa42-b56ad7923978@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 3:43 PM Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk wrote: > In restoring my PDP-8/s, diodes were the problem. Turns out they have > steel leads that rust. Easy to see with a microscope. > Badly rusted ones broke the glass body. Good to know. My PDP-8/S was stored indoors but my Straight-8 was in a storage locker for years before I got it. I have a stereo inspection microscope. I'll definitely peer at the diodes as part of the cleaning/evaluation process. But I also have to line up a bunch of spare bulbs. The leads on more than half of the ones on my -8/S are fractured where they enter the glass. -ethan From bill.gunshannon at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 17:26:45 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at gmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 18:26:45 -0400 Subject: APL-11 In-Reply-To: <093BD0BC-4D49-4E18-B039-8C6FB8B695B3@avanthar.com> References: <75ba0f11-858e-9c6f-8b3b-5e6e3f4f8453@bitsavers.org> <093BD0BC-4D49-4E18-B039-8C6FB8B695B3@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <04a70268-6912-2f9e-fa8e-37f7bbd81095@gmail.com> On 3/30/20 2:22 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > > >> On Mar 30, 2020, at 10:38 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 3/30/20 12:34 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >>> On 3/30/20 7:58 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >>>> Anybody have an image of the tape for APL-11? >>> APL-11 was released through DECUS. Here is the RSX-11 version >>> http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RSX-11/freeware/decus/rsx85a/370360/ >> >> Unfortunately, that appears to be yet a third version of APL using the >> name APL-11. According to the documentatio it will only run on RSX. >> >> The one I am looking for was written for DEC by OMSI and will run on >> all three OSes. It also appears to be more feature rich and supports >> ASCII as well as APL terminals. >> >> I am saddened more every day as I discover more and more of our history >> that has been lost. >> >> bill > > Has anyone ever figured out what happened to all the OMSI software? The more I learn, the more I?m amazed. I?d love to know where in their old building they had PDP-11?s squirreled away. I spent a lot of time there in the 70?s and early 80?s, yet never realized they were doing all this. The software I?d really love to get access to is their graphical version of Wumpus. > Somewhere around here I have OMSI Pascal. I think I may even still have the documentation. Didn't know what other languages they did til I read the docs on APL-11 and saw that DEC had contracted them to create it. Don't imagine there is much chance of Mary Erichsen being around. She was the contact listed for Pascal-2 from them in the Sourcebook. bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Mar 30 17:32:24 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 18:32:24 -0400 Subject: REL APL-11 In-Reply-To: <8B7DCFBB-34D6-40A2-9C15-BBAFDD7CED5C@MatlockFamily.com> References: <8B7DCFBB-34D6-40A2-9C15-BBAFDD7CED5C@MatlockFamily.com> Message-ID: On 3/30/20 3:21 PM, Mark Matlock via cctech wrote: > Bill, > The APL-11 files on DECUS RSX85A are not a complete distribution but a modified version that was intended to run under I/D on M+. > > I have the APL-11 V2.1 source files on a RL02 disk image. I will make it available at http://www.rsx11m.com/apl11.zip > > Once you mount the disk image with Simh, the are two ready to run task images that will run under RSX11M or M+ > In [201,200]APL6OK.TSK and APL7OK.TSK that are the REAL*4 and REAL*8 versions of APL-11. On the disk are the > Original .MAC sources as well as files from a RSX SIG tape that modified APL-11 for I/D under RSX11M+ that increased > The workspace (.BXWA from ~30000 to ~60000 bytes). It also contains a character set for Vt220 for the APL character set. > > When you install the APL task experiment with the /INC to maximize the available workspace, On my system, I can > INS APL6.TSK/INC=37000 to max the workspace for the single precision version. > > Also, the scanned APL-11 reference manual can be downloaded at http://www.rsx11m.com/APL-11-Ref-Man.pdf > and the APL11 installation guide at http://www.rsx11m.com/APL11ins.pdf > > The RSX SIG files that have the info to change APL-11 to an I/D RSX11M+ task from RSX85A are also at [370,360] on the RL02 disk. I remember having this work back in the mid-1980s but I have not been able to get it to work today. If I link it with ODT it seems to blow up when the first overlay is loaded. If anyone could help with that I?d really appreciate it! > According to the Ref Manual, that's the one I was looking for. Now to mount the RL on RSTS and see what it takes to build it there. I'll let the list know how I make out in case someone else is interested. bill From cramcram at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 18:29:32 2020 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 16:29:32 -0700 Subject: REL APL-11 In-Reply-To: <1a944308-24e3-7f08-73c0-32091dcebe60@thereinhardts.org> References: <1a944308-24e3-7f08-73c0-32091dcebe60@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: Stupid question time. I last used APL in a class in 1975. Back then you needed a magic terminal and/or a magic Selectric typeball. How does one input or print a program on a PDP-11 with mere mortal equipment? Thanks, Marc Howard On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 4:07 PM John H. Reinhardt via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 3/30/2020 1:37 PM, Mark Matlock via cctalk wrote: > > > > Bill, > > I have the APL-11 V2.1 source files on a RL02 disk image. I will > make it available at http://www.rsx11m.com/apl11.zip < > http://www.rsx11m.com/apl11.zip> > > > > Once you mount the disk image with Simh, the are two ready to run > task images that will run under RSX11M or M+ > > In [201,200]APL6OK.TSK and APL7OK.TSK that are the REAL*4 and REAL*8 > versions of APL-11. On the disk are the > > Original .MAC sources as well as files from a RSX SIG tape that modified > APL-11 for I/D under RSX11M+ that increased > > The workspace (.BXWA from ~30000 to ~60000 bytes). It also contains a > character set for Vt220 for the APL character set. > > > > When you install the APL task experiment with the /INC to maximize > the available workspace, On my system, I can > > INS APL6.TSK/INC=37000 to max the workspace for the single precision > version. > > > > Also, the scanned APL-11 reference manual can be downloaded at > http://www.rsx11m.com/APL-11-Ref-Man.pdf < > http://www.rsx11m.com/APL-11-Ref-Man.pdf> > > and the APL11 installation guide at http://www.rsx11m.com/APL11ins.pdf > > > > > The RSX SIG files that have the info to change APL-11 to an I/D > RSX11M+ task are at [370,360] on the RL02 disk. I remember having this work > back in the mid-1980s butI have not been able to get it to work today. If I > link it with ODT it seems to blow up when the first overlay is loaded. If > anyone could help with that I?d really appreciate it! > > > > Best, > > Mark > > Thanks Mark! > > > I remember we had APL at Rose-Hulman when I was in college there from > 1978-1983. At first I thought it was on the VAX-11/780 that showed up over > the summer of 1980, but now I realize it had to have been on our PDP-11/70 > running RSTS/E. Probably APL-11 V1.X since it was there in the Fall of > 1978 when I started. We had a couple of DEC LA36's with the APL character > set and keyboards. > > -- > John H. Reinhardt > > From cramcram at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 18:45:28 2020 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 16:45:28 -0700 Subject: REL APL-11 In-Reply-To: <3caaf0f0-ab62-ff04-688f-21f73924e008@thereinhardts.org> References: <1a944308-24e3-7f08-73c0-32091dcebe60@thereinhardts.org> <3caaf0f0-ab62-ff04-688f-21f73924e008@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: The only things I remember about APL were: 1. Square divide symbol formed something that looked like a domino (1 over 1) and was the random number generator. 2. Someone always finds a way to do a moderate sized task in one line of code. The ultimate obfuscated code contest. Marc On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 4:35 PM John H. Reinhardt via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 3/30/2020 6:29 PM, Marc Howard wrote: > > Stupid question time. I last used APL in a class in 1975. Back then > you needed a magic terminal and/or a magic Selectric typeball. How does > one input or print a program on a PDP-11 with mere mortal equipment? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Marc Howard > > > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 4:07 PM John H. Reinhardt via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org > wrote: > > > > On 3/30/2020 1:37 PM, Mark Matlock via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > Bill, > > > I have the APL-11 V2.1 source files on a RL02 disk image. I > will make it available at http://www.rsx11m.com/apl11.zip < > http://www.rsx11m.com/apl11.zip> > > > > > > Once you mount the disk image with Simh, the are two ready to > run task images that will run under RSX11M or M+ > > > In [201,200]APL6OK.TSK and APL7OK.TSK that are the REAL*4 and > REAL*8 versions of APL-11. On the disk are the > > > Original .MAC sources as well as files from a RSX SIG tape that > modified APL-11 for I/D under RSX11M+ that increased > > > The workspace (.BXWA from ~30000 to ~60000 bytes). It also > contains a character set for Vt220 for the APL character set. > > > > > > When you install the APL task experiment with the /INC to > maximize the available workspace, On my system, I can > > > INS APL6.TSK/INC=37000 to max the workspace for the single > precision version. > > > > > > Also, the scanned APL-11 reference manual can be downloaded at > http://www.rsx11m.com/APL-11-Ref-Man.pdf < > http://www.rsx11m.com/APL-11-Ref-Man.pdf> > > > and the APL11 installation guide at > http://www.rsx11m.com/APL11ins.pdf > > > > > > The RSX SIG files that have the info to change APL-11 to an > I/D RSX11M+ task are at [370,360] on the RL02 disk. I remember having this > work back in the mid-1980s butI have not been able to get it to work today. > If I link it with ODT it seems to blow up when the first overlay is loaded. > If anyone could help with that I?d really appreciate it! > > > > > > Best, > > > Mark > > > > Thanks Mark! > > > > > > I remember we had APL at Rose-Hulman when I was in college there > from 1978-1983. At first I thought it was on the VAX-11/780 that showed up > over the summer of 1980, but now I realize it had to have been on our > PDP-11/70 running RSTS/E. Probably APL-11 V1.X since it was there in the > Fall of 1978 when I started. We had a couple of DEC LA36's with the APL > character set and keyboards. > > > > -- > > John H. Reinhardt > > > Marc, > > On page 1-5 of the APL-11 Reference Manual that Mark posted there is a > table showing the ACII equivalents for the special APL character set. > There are also instructions there on how to do it. It's a combination of > characters and backspaces. Kinda tough on a video terminal but workable on > a printer. > > -- > John H. Reinhardt > > From mark at matlockfamily.com Mon Mar 30 21:30:46 2020 From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2020 21:30:46 -0500 Subject: APL-11 Message-ID: >According to the Ref Manual, that's the one I was looking for. >Now to mount the RL on RSTS and see what it takes to build it >there. I'll let the list know how I make out in case someone >else is interested. > >bill The RL02 image is RSX Files-11, and I?m not sure if you can mount that with RSTS. I could move it to a RT-11 formatted RL02 or if your RSTS system is on HECnet I can put it where you could get it that way. I looked for the original DOS-11 formatted DEC distribution tape but can?t find it at this time. Let me know if you need anything. Mark From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Mar 31 07:31:06 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 08:31:06 -0400 Subject: REL APL-11 In-Reply-To: References: <1a944308-24e3-7f08-73c0-32091dcebe60@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: On 3/30/20 7:29 PM, Marc Howard via cctalk wrote: > Stupid question time. I last used APL in a class in 1975. Back then you > needed a magic terminal and/or a magic Selectric typeball. How does one > input or print a program on a PDP-11 with mere mortal equipment? > > Thanks, Take a look at Chapter 1.4 of the APL-11 Users Manual. You use Mnemonics. Special combinations of letters preceded by a period that represent the symbols. Not as easy to read but still gives you the power of APL. On the Prime it was combinations of letters preceded by an octothorpe "#". bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Mar 31 07:33:45 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 08:33:45 -0400 Subject: REL APL-11 In-Reply-To: References: <1a944308-24e3-7f08-73c0-32091dcebe60@thereinhardts.org> <3caaf0f0-ab62-ff04-688f-21f73924e008@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: On 3/30/20 7:45 PM, Marc Howard via cctalk wrote: > The only things I remember about APL were: > > 1. Square divide symbol formed something that looked like a > domino (1 over 1) and was the random number generator. > 2. Someone always finds a way to do a moderate sized task in one line of > code. The ultimate obfuscated code contest. > Like any other language, APL is only obfuscated to those who never learned to understand it. To most people, math when written out is totally obfuscated. bill From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Mar 31 07:37:07 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 08:37:07 -0400 Subject: APL-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <69EFE7DF-C28A-47BE-9391-9F4F1FE099DA@comcast.net> > On Mar 30, 2020, at 10:30 PM, Mark Matlock via cctalk wrote: > >> According to the Ref Manual, that's the one I was looking for. >> Now to mount the RL on RSTS and see what it takes to build it >> there. I'll let the list know how I make out in case someone >> else is interested. >> >> bill > The RL02 image is RSX Files-11, and I?m not sure if you can mount that with RSTS. I could move it to a RT-11 formatted RL02 or if your RSTS system is on HECnet I can put it where you could get it that way. RSTS won't read ODS. It does know how to read RT11 file structure (with a standard utility). paul From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Mar 31 07:45:02 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 08:45:02 -0400 Subject: APL-11 In-Reply-To: <69EFE7DF-C28A-47BE-9391-9F4F1FE099DA@comcast.net> References: <69EFE7DF-C28A-47BE-9391-9F4F1FE099DA@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 3/31/20 8:37 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Mar 30, 2020, at 10:30 PM, Mark Matlock via cctalk wrote: >> >>> According to the Ref Manual, that's the one I was looking for. >>> Now to mount the RL on RSTS and see what it takes to build it >>> there. I'll let the list know how I make out in case someone >>> else is interested. >>> >>> bill >> The RL02 image is RSX Files-11, and I?m not sure if you can mount that with RSTS. I could move it to a RT-11 formatted RL02 or if your RSTS system is on HECnet I can put it where you could get it that way. > > RSTS won't read ODS. It does know how to read RT11 file structure (with a standard utility). > Problem with that is all the files get jumbled into one directory and I am sure the build will want them in the right proj,uid locations in order to work. I am thinking a backup tape may do the job. SPD's seem to say that later versions of RSX and RSTS had compatible BACKUP formats. We'll see. If that don't work there is always kermit. :-) bill From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Mar 31 07:36:08 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 08:36:08 -0400 Subject: REL APL-11 In-Reply-To: References: <8B7DCFBB-34D6-40A2-9C15-BBAFDD7CED5C@MatlockFamily.com> Message-ID: > On Mar 30, 2020, at 6:32 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctech wrote: > > On 3/30/20 3:21 PM, Mark Matlock via cctech wrote: >> Bill, >> The APL-11 files on DECUS RSX85A are not a complete distribution but a modified version that was intended to run under I/D on M+. >> I have the APL-11 V2.1 source files on a RL02 disk image. I will make it available at http://www.rsx11m.com/apl11.zip >> Once you mount the disk image with Simh, the are two ready to run task images that will run under RSX11M or M+ >> In [201,200]APL6OK.TSK and APL7OK.TSK that are the REAL*4 and REAL*8 versions of APL-11. On the disk are the >> Original .MAC sources as well as files from a RSX SIG tape that modified APL-11 for I/D under RSX11M+ that increased >> The workspace (.BXWA from ~30000 to ~60000 bytes). It also contains a character set for Vt220 for the APL character set. >> When you install the APL task experiment with the /INC to maximize the available workspace, On my system, I can >> INS APL6.TSK/INC=37000 to max the workspace for the single precision version. >> Also, the scanned APL-11 reference manual can be downloaded at http://www.rsx11m.com/APL-11-Ref-Man.pdf >> and the APL11 installation guide at http://www.rsx11m.com/APL11ins.pdf >> The RSX SIG files that have the info to change APL-11 to an I/D RSX11M+ task from RSX85A are also at [370,360] on the RL02 disk. I remember having this work back in the mid-1980s but I have not been able to get it to work today. If I link it with ODT it seems to blow up when the first overlay is loaded. If anyone could help with that I?d really appreciate it! > > According to the Ref Manual, that's the one I was looking for. > Now to mount the RL on RSTS and see what it takes to build it > there. I'll let the list know how I make out in case someone > else is interested. > > bill Please let me know if I can help. I haven't done a whole lot of work with RSX origin applications on RSTS but from what I know the process should in general be straightforward. I don't think it's quite as easy as just running the .tsk file (different RMS image) but reassembly and re-TKB with the existing control files feels like it should be successful. paul From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Mar 31 07:39:24 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 08:39:24 -0400 Subject: APL-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3/30/20 10:30 PM, Mark Matlock via cctech wrote: >> According to the Ref Manual, that's the one I was looking for. >> Now to mount the RL on RSTS and see what it takes to build it >> there. I'll let the list know how I make out in case someone >> else is interested. >> >> bill > The RL02 image is RSX Files-11, and I?m not sure if you can mount that with RSTS. I could move it to a RT-11 formatted RL02 or if your RSTS system is on HECnet I can put it where you could get it that way. I looked for the original DOS-11 formatted DEC distribution tape but can?t find it at this time. Let me know if you need anything. > Don't think I can read it on RSTS directly but I can read it on an emulated RSX system. Now I need to build a system with all the devices I need (all the prebuilt images seem to be lacking too many devices) so i can make a backup tape and use that to move it to RSTS. Of course, I may look at all of it on RSX and see if I can build an install tape that works on all the OSes like the Documentation says. it's just that I had limited experience with RSX. Last use was when I worked for TRWIND back in 87-88 for an Air Force Contract and I was not overly impressed so I never got more involved with it. bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Mar 31 07:41:49 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 08:41:49 -0400 Subject: REL APL-11 In-Reply-To: References: <8B7DCFBB-34D6-40A2-9C15-BBAFDD7CED5C@MatlockFamily.com> Message-ID: On 3/31/20 8:36 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Mar 30, 2020, at 6:32 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctech wrote: >> >> On 3/30/20 3:21 PM, Mark Matlock via cctech wrote: >>> Bill, >>> The APL-11 files on DECUS RSX85A are not a complete distribution but a modified version that was intended to run under I/D on M+. >>> I have the APL-11 V2.1 source files on a RL02 disk image. I will make it available at http://www.rsx11m.com/apl11.zip >>> Once you mount the disk image with Simh, the are two ready to run task images that will run under RSX11M or M+ >>> In [201,200]APL6OK.TSK and APL7OK.TSK that are the REAL*4 and REAL*8 versions of APL-11. On the disk are the >>> Original .MAC sources as well as files from a RSX SIG tape that modified APL-11 for I/D under RSX11M+ that increased >>> The workspace (.BXWA from ~30000 to ~60000 bytes). It also contains a character set for Vt220 for the APL character set. >>> When you install the APL task experiment with the /INC to maximize the available workspace, On my system, I can >>> INS APL6.TSK/INC=37000 to max the workspace for the single precision version. >>> Also, the scanned APL-11 reference manual can be downloaded at http://www.rsx11m.com/APL-11-Ref-Man.pdf >>> and the APL11 installation guide at http://www.rsx11m.com/APL11ins.pdf >>> The RSX SIG files that have the info to change APL-11 to an I/D RSX11M+ task from RSX85A are also at [370,360] on the RL02 disk. I remember having this work back in the mid-1980s but I have not been able to get it to work today. If I link it with ODT it seems to blow up when the first overlay is loaded. If anyone could help with that I?d really appreciate it! >> >> According to the Ref Manual, that's the one I was looking for. >> Now to mount the RL on RSTS and see what it takes to build it >> there. I'll let the list know how I make out in case someone >> else is interested. >> >> bill > > Please let me know if I can help. I haven't done a whole lot of work with RSX origin applications on RSTS but from what I know the process should in general be straightforward. I don't think it's quite as easy as just running the .tsk file (different RMS image) but reassembly and re-TKB with the existing control files feels like it should be successful. > It must be possible because the installation manual says the installation tape works for all four PDP-11 OSes. bill From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Mar 31 09:02:24 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 10:02:24 -0400 Subject: APL-11 In-Reply-To: References: <69EFE7DF-C28A-47BE-9391-9F4F1FE099DA@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2D497096-CBD8-4C0B-B4F2-13DD9B4B1F8A@comcast.net> > On Mar 31, 2020, at 8:45 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On 3/31/20 8:37 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>> On Mar 30, 2020, at 10:30 PM, Mark Matlock via cctalk wrote: >>> >>>> According to the Ref Manual, that's the one I was looking for. >>>> Now to mount the RL on RSTS and see what it takes to build it >>>> there. I'll let the list know how I make out in case someone >>>> else is interested. >>>> >>>> bill >>> The RL02 image is RSX Files-11, and I?m not sure if you can mount that with RSTS. I could move it to a RT-11 formatted RL02 or if your RSTS system is on HECnet I can put it where you could get it that way. >> RSTS won't read ODS. It does know how to read RT11 file structure (with a standard utility). > > Problem with that is all the files get jumbled into one directory > and I am sure the build will want them in the right proj,uid locations > in order to work. I am thinking a backup tape may do the job. SPD's > seem to say that later versions of RSX and RSTS had compatible BACKUP > formats. We'll see. If that don't work there is always kermit. :-) > > bill RSTS V9 and later have a BACKUP that's compatible with VMS, so if RSX has one also that would work. And there's DECnet, of course. paul From mark at matlockfamily.com Tue Mar 31 10:43:41 2020 From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 10:43:41 -0500 Subject: APL-11 Message-ID: <58F5BFAA-ACA1-42A1-931B-D5083F6559FF@matlockfamily.com> >Problem with that is all the files get jumbled into one directory >and I am sure the build will want them in the right proj,uid locations >in order to work. I am thinking a backup tape may do the job. SPD's >seem to say that later versions of RSX and RSTS had compatible BACKUP >formats. We'll see. If that don't work there is always kermit. :-) >It must be possible because the installation manual says the >installation tape works for all four PDP-11 OSes. Bill, I?ve looked extensively to see if I can find the original distribution tape image and can?t find it. At one point DEC donated the APL-11 to DECUS and I think that is when I got it back in 1984 or so. The files I have include the Macro-11 source code which as near as I can tell was not on the DEC distribution when it was a layered product. I now think that the copy of APL-11 I have must have come from a restored backup tape from my old system. In the DEC distribution, it was a DOS-11 tape which could be read by all the PDP-11 OSes as you say. I just attempted to create a DOS-11 tape similar to the DEC distribution, but when I try to run the installation against it I get a task build of APL that doesn?t work. It immediately exits and I think is due to some differences between the auto overlay code in RSX11M+ V4.6 and the V2.1 M+ that I used to have. I added the .MAC files and .CMD files (for assembly, and linking) to the tape and make it available at: http://www.rsx11m.com/apl11.tap Let me know if that works for you. It may build under RSTS fine. A backup plan to make it available is that also on the same web site are two disk images for the PiDP-11/70 folks that is a complete RSX11M+ V4.6 ready to run under Simh. On the DU1 disk image in [201,50] and [201,200] are all the APL-11 files I have. That system also installs a working APL-11 for RSX. Mark From bob at jfcl.com Tue Mar 31 12:19:33 2020 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 10:19:33 -0700 Subject: H7874 power supply In-Reply-To: <5E823C55.5000103@pico-systems.com> References: <006501d60569$692314a0$3b693de0$@com> <01e301d60594$cc97afc0$65c70f40$@ntlworld.com> <003301d605d8$76603660$6320a320$@com> <002201d605f5$e6f8a6b0$b4e9f410$@com> <023701d6060d$aeaca5a0$0c05f0e0$@ntlworld.com> <005e01d60617$856e2150$904a63f0$@com> <026701d6065d$fb47cc00$f1d76400$@ntlworld.com> <003a01d6069d$e97d8d80$bc78a880$@com> <06FAFC09-0BF4-43EF-A44C-A3B2998691C4@comcast.net> <5E823C55.5000103@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <012c01d60780$8bca7d40$a35f77c0$@com> > Jon Elson wrote: >The VAX 11/780 absolutely had power fail, and it DID work. So did the 11/730 and I imagine the 750 as well. No core, but there was a battery backup option to keep main memory alive and refreshed even in the event of power failure. >I did this quite often while swapping I/O devices and such >after device drivers became loadable. It was (is!) quite handy on the 730 as well. If your configuration has a separate BA11-K for the UNIBUS peripherals, then you can power down that box without turning off the CPU. It took 20-25 minutes to boot up the 730 from a dead start, so this was a great time saver. Bob From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Mar 31 16:50:13 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 15:50:13 -0600 Subject: APL-11 In-Reply-To: <2D497096-CBD8-4C0B-B4F2-13DD9B4B1F8A@comcast.net> References: <69EFE7DF-C28A-47BE-9391-9F4F1FE099DA@comcast.net> <2D497096-CBD8-4C0B-B4F2-13DD9B4B1F8A@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 8:02 AM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Mar 31, 2020, at 8:45 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On 3/31/20 8:37 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >>> On Mar 30, 2020, at 10:30 PM, Mark Matlock via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >>> > >>>> According to the Ref Manual, that's the one I was looking for. > >>>> Now to mount the RL on RSTS and see what it takes to build it > >>>> there. I'll let the list know how I make out in case someone > >>>> else is interested. > >>>> > >>>> bill > >>> The RL02 image is RSX Files-11, and I?m not sure if you can mount > that with RSTS. I could move it to a RT-11 formatted RL02 or if your RSTS > system is on HECnet I can put it where you could get it that way. > >> RSTS won't read ODS. It does know how to read RT11 file structure > (with a standard utility). > > > > Problem with that is all the files get jumbled into one directory > > and I am sure the build will want them in the right proj,uid locations > > in order to work. I am thinking a backup tape may do the job. SPD's > > seem to say that later versions of RSX and RSTS had compatible BACKUP > > formats. We'll see. If that don't work there is always kermit. :-) > > > > bill > > RSTS V9 and later have a BACKUP that's compatible with VMS, so if RSX has > one also that would work. And there's DECnet, of course. > are the NIC drivers in simh functional enough to create two instances and DECnet between them? Warner From david at thecoolbears.org Tue Mar 31 15:33:52 2020 From: david at thecoolbears.org (David Coolbear) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 13:33:52 -0700 Subject: Power Supply Recap Message-ID: There's been a lot of discussion of late about replacing power supply capacitors in DEC power supplies. I have a BA123 and I believe that it uses an H7260 power supply. I feel like it might be a good idea to replace the capacitors before a disaster occurs. I haven't been able to find a schematic for the H7260 and I'm wondering which/how many caps need to be replaced. Does anyone know what specific part# to replace them with? I'd prefer to purchase the replacements before I dig in to the machine, that way I don't have to remove the power supply twice. I also own a BA23. Does anyone know if that power supply uses the same caps as the H7260 and how many are required for that supply? From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Mar 31 18:49:09 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2020 19:49:09 -0400 Subject: APL-11 In-Reply-To: References: <69EFE7DF-C28A-47BE-9391-9F4F1FE099DA@comcast.net> <2D497096-CBD8-4C0B-B4F2-13DD9B4B1F8A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <86F5A123-87B4-460D-916F-D625E843B50B@comcast.net> > On Mar 31, 2020, at 5:50 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 8:02 AM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> RSTS V9 and later have a BACKUP that's compatible with VMS, so if RSX has one also that would work. And there's DECnet, of course. >> > are the NIC drivers in simh functional enough to create two instances and DECnet between them? > > Warner Absolutely. They have been for years. HECnet is a hobbyist DECnet network with several hundred nodes, many of which are SIMH instances running anything from TOPS-10 and VMS to RSX to RSTS/E. Ethernet, DMC11, KMC/DUP, you name it, it all works. paul