From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Fri Nov  1 03:46:41 2019
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2019 08:46:41 -0000
Subject: getting your data from yahoo
In-Reply-To: <16a8aa5e-2afa-fde2-1367-3ef74d55a845@bitsavers.org>
References: <16a8aa5e-2afa-fde2-1367-3ef74d55a845@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <2a1b01d59090$e23e4600$a6bad200$@gmail.com>

Al,
 I think that?s for GDPR and returns only the data you have posted.
Dave

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Al Kossow via
> cctalk
> Sent: 31 October 2019 16:39
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: getting your data from yahoo
> 
> someone just posted this on twitter
> they seem to have sent an email to everyone and didn't bother to mention this
> 
> https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/getmydata



From spedraja at gmail.com  Fri Nov  1 04:54:03 2019
From: spedraja at gmail.com (SPC)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2019 10:54:03 +0100
Subject: getting your data from yahoo
In-Reply-To: <2a1b01d59090$e23e4600$a6bad200$@gmail.com>
References: <16a8aa5e-2afa-fde2-1367-3ef74d55a845@bitsavers.org>
 <2a1b01d59090$e23e4600$a6bad200$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACytpF8+dzfPcnjUT6Rj2hJCN1PsGgX89qiFOEBcL+U5n5dJ0A@mail.gmail.com>

El vie., 1 nov. 2019 a las 9:46, Dave Wade via cctalk (<
cctalk at classiccmp.org>) escribi?:

> Al,
>  I think that?s for GDPR and returns only the data you have posted.
> Dave
>
> At least by now, I have saved the entire contents (with the exception of
"databases" but I guess is a matter of permissions in the rare cases I've
found one DB associated to one group in Yahoo). I am using the Personal
Groupware Tool that I linked some posts before.

Regards
Sergio

From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri Nov  1 17:36:21 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2019 15:36:21 -0700
Subject: Best email to reach a human at the centre for computing history
 (computinghistory.org.uk)
Message-ID: <526b620c-5f23-93d1-2e0d-ce3259d5d8b5@bitsavers.org>

I've tried several times to email them, and never received a reply.
Could someone send me an email adr for a human who might be able to
answer if they could scan something which is in their catalog but isn't
available on line there?


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Fri Nov  1 19:04:03 2019
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 00:04:03 -0000
Subject: Best email to reach a human at the centre for computing history
 (computinghistory.org.uk)
In-Reply-To: <526b620c-5f23-93d1-2e0d-ce3259d5d8b5@bitsavers.org>
References: <526b620c-5f23-93d1-2e0d-ce3259d5d8b5@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <39dd01d59111$09bb9ea0$1d32dbe0$@gmail.com>

I will answer Al offline

Dave

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Al Kossow via
> cctalk
> Sent: 01 November 2019 22:36
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Best email to reach a human at the centre for computing history
> (computinghistory.org.uk)
> 
> I've tried several times to email them, and never received a reply.
> Could someone send me an email adr for a human who might be able to
> answer if they could scan something which is in their catalog but isn't available
> on line there?



From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com  Sat Nov  2 02:17:07 2019
From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc)
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 16:17:07 +0900
Subject: Best email to reach a human at the centre for computing history
 (computinghistory.org.uk)
In-Reply-To: <39dd01d59111$09bb9ea0$1d32dbe0$@gmail.com>
References: <526b620c-5f23-93d1-2e0d-ce3259d5d8b5@bitsavers.org>
 <39dd01d59111$09bb9ea0$1d32dbe0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4D86A105-E486-49CA-94A2-68EEADB9A3B0@gmail.com>

I also responded off line. They did scan a doc for me in the recent past.
Marc

> On Nov 2, 2019, at 9:04 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> I will answer Al offline
> 
> Dave
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Al Kossow via
>> cctalk
>> Sent: 01 November 2019 22:36
>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>> Subject: Best email to reach a human at the centre for computing history
>> (computinghistory.org.uk)
>> 
>> I've tried several times to email them, and never received a reply.
>> Could someone send me an email adr for a human who might be able to
>> answer if they could scan something which is in their catalog but isn't available
>> on line there?
> 
> 

From cctalk at harlie.org  Sat Nov  2 03:32:00 2019
From: cctalk at harlie.org (cctalk at harlie.org)
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 01:32:00 -0700
Subject: Cheap minicomputer (Tracor-Northern 1610) on Facebook Markeplace
 (Allentown, PA) 18 bit?
Message-ID: <002001d59158$0049e510$00ddaf30$@harlie.org>

Has anyone seen this?  It looks like an 18-bit machine.

 

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/736222363558907/

 

--Bill

 

 

 


From RichA at livingcomputers.org  Fri Nov  1 20:33:14 2019
From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson)
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 01:33:14 +0000
Subject: getting your data from yahoo
In-Reply-To: <2a1b01d59090$e23e4600$a6bad200$@gmail.com>
References: <16a8aa5e-2afa-fde2-1367-3ef74d55a845@bitsavers.org>
 <2a1b01d59090$e23e4600$a6bad200$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <02ceff7263384a7a895076a0ff62610f@livingcomputers.org>

OK, Yahoo took more than 24 hours, but finally handed me a link to download my e-mail.

It's a 462MB .archive file.  zcat tells me that it's multipart, and only unloads the first part (which contains about 10 messages as .eml files).

What tool do I use to look at the contents of this verschlagener file?

Thanks,
Rich


Rich Alderson
Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computers: Museum + Labs
2245 1st Ave S
Seattle, WA 98134


http://www.LivingComputers.org/



From rws at ripco.com  Sat Nov  2 09:08:20 2019
From: rws at ripco.com (Richard Schauer)
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 09:08:20 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: getting your data from yahoo
In-Reply-To: <02ceff7263384a7a895076a0ff62610f@livingcomputers.org>
References: <16a8aa5e-2afa-fde2-1367-3ef74d55a845@bitsavers.org>
 <2a1b01d59090$e23e4600$a6bad200$@gmail.com>
 <02ceff7263384a7a895076a0ff62610f@livingcomputers.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.64.1911020846230.27519@shell3.ripco.com>

On Sat, 2 Nov 2019, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote:
> What tool do I use to look at the contents of this verschlagener file?

I also asked for and got one of these files.  Mine took something like 30 
hours, and gave me a 584 MB .zip file.  I tried it using a Windows 10 
machine, and it consists of directories, each with the name of a group I'm 
subscribed to.  Opening each directory, there are one or more .zip files 
in it; for example, files.zip, links.zip, and messages.zip are in one I'm 
looking at now.  files.zip contains the files without further 
complication, with their directory structure from Yahoo maintained. 
links.zip contains .url files.  messages.zip contains files of the format 
1959542.mbox.00001, 1959542.mbox.00002, 1959542.mbox.00003, etc.  These 
seem to be 10 MB (uncompressed) chunks of the concatenated messages, in 
plaintext format as email messages.  I haven't tried feeding them to 
something like Pine, but it would appear to be compatible.  Email 
addresses appear to be intact, with the exception of one group I looked at 
with messages back into 1999 (perhaps they started on egroups or 
something).  The one thing that does not appear to be there is photos, 
unless they were stored as "files."

Overall, it's exactly what I would have hoped to get, with the exception 
of the photos.

Richard Schauer

From elson at pico-systems.com  Sat Nov  2 10:35:36 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2019 10:35:36 -0500
Subject: Cheap minicomputer (Tracor-Northern 1610) on Facebook Markeplace
 (Allentown, PA) 18 bit?
In-Reply-To: <002001d59158$0049e510$00ddaf30$@harlie.org>
References: <002001d59158$0049e510$00ddaf30$@harlie.org>
Message-ID: <5DBDA248.7000307@pico-systems.com>

On 11/02/2019 03:32 AM, cctalk--- via cctalk wrote:
> Has anyone seen this?  It looks like an 18-bit machine.
>
>   
>
> https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/736222363558907/
At least at one time, these things contained PDP-11's.  The 
CPU at the bottom sure looks like a PDP-11,
I'm thinking it might actually be a Cal-Data CPU (PDP-11 
clone) with a custom logo.

Jon


From cctalk at ibm51xx.net  Sat Nov  2 11:34:06 2019
From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali)
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 09:34:06 -0700
Subject: getting your data from yahoo
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.1911020846230.27519@shell3.ripco.com>
References: <16a8aa5e-2afa-fde2-1367-3ef74d55a845@bitsavers.org>
 <2a1b01d59090$e23e4600$a6bad200$@gmail.com>
 <02ceff7263384a7a895076a0ff62610f@livingcomputers.org>
 <Pine.GSO.4.64.1911020846230.27519@shell3.ripco.com>
Message-ID: <003101d5919b$5906e480$0b14ad80$@net>


> I also asked for and got one of these files.  Mine took something like
> 30
> hours, and gave me a 584 MB .zip file.  I tried it using a Windows 10
> machine, and it consists of directories, each with the name of a group
> I'm
> subscribed to.  Opening each directory, there are one or more .zip
> files
> in it; for example, files.zip, links.zip, and messages.zip are in one
> I'm
> looking at now.  files.zip contains the files without further
> complication, with their directory structure from Yahoo maintained.
> links.zip contains .url files.  messages.zip contains files of the
> format
> 1959542.mbox.00001, 1959542.mbox.00002, 1959542.mbox.00003, etc.  These
> seem to be 10 MB (uncompressed) chunks of the concatenated messages, in
> plaintext format as email messages.  I haven't tried feeding them to
> something like Pine, but it would appear to be compatible.  Email
> addresses appear to be intact, with the exception of one group I looked
> at
> with messages back into 1999 (perhaps they started on egroups or
> something).  The one thing that does not appear to be there is photos,
> unless they were stored as "files."
> 
> Overall, it's exactly what I would have hoped to get, with the
> exception
> of the photos.


I had the same experience, although mine was much smaller (only one group,
not very active and not with many files). Overall very painless. 

-All


From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Sat Nov  2 12:37:02 2019
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 13:37:02 -0400
Subject: Cheap minicomputer (Tracor-Northern 1610) on Facebook Markeplace
 (Allentown, PA) 18 bit?
In-Reply-To: <5DBDA248.7000307@pico-systems.com>
References: <002001d59158$0049e510$00ddaf30$@harlie.org>
 <5DBDA248.7000307@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <892fa3cb-ce81-1a92-f165-0c90c8f3f4e7@alembic.crystel.com>

Indeed. I was thinking since it was a 16 bit bus but 18 bit switches 
that it might be an 11/35 or 11/40 inside there. Interesting.

On 11/2/2019 11:35 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
> On 11/02/2019 03:32 AM, cctalk--- via cctalk wrote:
>> Has anyone seen this?? It looks like an 18-bit machine.
>>
>>
>> https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/736222363558907/
> At least at one time, these things contained PDP-11's.? The CPU at the 
> bottom sure looks like a PDP-11,
> I'm thinking it might actually be a Cal-Data CPU (PDP-11 clone) with a 
> custom logo.
> 
> Jon
> 

From guykd at optusnet.com.au  Sat Nov  2 16:39:47 2019
From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy)
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2019 08:39:47 +1100
Subject: Cheap minicomputer (Tracor-Northern 1610) on Facebook
 Markeplace (Allentown, PA) 18 bit?
In-Reply-To: <892fa3cb-ce81-1a92-f165-0c90c8f3f4e7@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <5DBDA248.7000307@pico-systems.com>
 <002001d59158$0049e510$00ddaf30$@harlie.org>
 <5DBDA248.7000307@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20191103083947.00e56608@mail.optusnet.com.au>

Well, it's sold. I hope someone here hought it, and will post some better pics and details.

If it had been near to me I'd have bought it instantly. A rack, a Tektronix XY display,
a rack drawer, blanking panels, some neat mysterious instruments, two 8" floppy drives,
and a probable PDP-something all for $45?
Bet the various items are on slide rails too. How rare is it to get both parts of
workable slide rails? Here in Oz, virtually unheard of. Separating slide halves and losing
one half seems to be a near universal syndrome with people who part out test equipment. 

Guy (Australia)


At 01:37 PM 2/11/2019 -0400, you wrote:
>Indeed. I was thinking since it was a 16 bit bus but 18 bit switches 
>that it might be an 11/35 or 11/40 inside there. Interesting.
>
>On 11/2/2019 11:35 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
>> On 11/02/2019 03:32 AM, cctalk--- via cctalk wrote:
>>> Has anyone seen this??? It looks like an 18-bit machine.
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/736222363558907/
>> At least at one time, these things contained PDP-11's.?? The CPU at the 
>> bottom sure looks like a PDP-11,
>> I'm thinking it might actually be a Cal-Data CPU (PDP-11 clone) with a 
>> custom logo.
>> 
>> Jon
>> 
>

From couryhouse at aol.com  Sat Nov  2 17:56:01 2019
From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE)
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 22:56:01 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Cheap minicomputer (Tracor-Northern 1610) on Facebook
 Markeplace (Allentown, PA) 18 bit?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20191103083947.00e56608@mail.optusnet.com.au>
References: <5DBDA248.7000307@pico-systems.com>
 <002001d59158$0049e510$00ddaf30$@harlie.org>
 <5DBDA248.7000307@pico-systems.com>
 <892fa3cb-ce81-1a92-f165-0c90c8f3f4e7@alembic.crystel.com>
 <3.0.6.32.20191103083947.00e56608@mail.optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <2032848827.223085.1572735361572@mail.yahoo.com>

heck just the empty? rack? with? drawer is? worth that - -Yes Guy I know about the anguish of half sets of rack? rails - we have that in Arizona also!? ?Ed#? ?SMECC
In a message dated 11/2/2019 2:40:15 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:

Well, it's sold. I hope someone here hought it, and will post some better pics and details.

If it had been near to me I'd have bought it instantly. A rack, a Tektronix XY display,
a rack drawer, blanking panels, some neat mysterious instruments, two 8" floppy drives,
and a probable PDP-something all for $45?
Bet the various items are on slide rails too. How rare is it to get both parts of
workable slide rails? Here in Oz, virtually unheard of. Separating slide halves and losing
one half seems to be a near universal syndrome with people who part out test equipment. 

Guy (Australia)


At 01:37 PM 2/11/2019 -0400, you wrote:
>Indeed. I was thinking since it was a 16 bit bus but 18 bit switches 
>that it might be an 11/35 or 11/40 inside there. Interesting.
>
>On 11/2/2019 11:35 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
>> On 11/02/2019 03:32 AM, cctalk--- via cctalk wrote:
>>> Has anyone seen this??? It looks like an 18-bit machine.
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/736222363558907/
>> At least at one time, these things contained PDP-11's.?? The CPU at the
>> bottom sure looks like a PDP-11,
>> I'm thinking it might actually be a Cal-Data CPU (PDP-11 clone) with a 
>> custom logo.
>> 
>> Jon
>> 
>

From stefan.skoglund at agj.net  Sun Nov  3 07:37:21 2019
From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund)
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2019 14:37:21 +0100
Subject: Original DEC logo in PostScript
In-Reply-To: <030901d58e81$0a7ff120$1f7fd360$@ntlworld.com>
References: <C06FEC5B-D719-42C1-BAAE-48A9EE392E8D@gmail.com>
 <CAEfH1SEjwfY-zh-3qUK+L6-kgVRtoQskrUyMGLO+tiYHY_Pt-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <030901d58e81$0a7ff120$1f7fd360$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <c93899d01b98e3360d49e7f99745000a3fdfb0a6.camel@agj.net>

tis 2019-10-29 klockan 17:48 +0000 skrev Rob Jarratt via cctalk:
> I know next to nothing about PostScript and fonts, is it possible to
> convert this to a font that can be installed on Windows? I found a
> site that says it converts it (convertio.co), but I am suspicious of
> free sites like that.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Rob
> 

did you solve your problem ?

Either way doing RTFM - .pfm is binary encoded .afm.

I did a simple drawing with the font in a ps and exported to pdf.




From stefan.skoglund at agj.net  Sun Nov  3 09:01:12 2019
From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund)
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2019 16:01:12 +0100
Subject: 50 yrs. ago today
In-Reply-To: <D3E0DC0E-1E11-4AC8-BBC3-60447DFEC167@comcast.net>
References: <CAMvyYF-Bn00qZ7r1540mRHtGPptdKc9B63=PnjKtKJEJTZc9fg@mail.gmail.com>
 <86f0931f-3836-1eba-5386-803b28dc0780@sydex.com>
 <CAMTenCESccne+Ao+rjoxS67XTXo1Wm9BPS4B8sWJ-ruMkpPE8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1910291223190.14736@shell.lmi.net>
 <00363262-3164-4E48-A176-A24F95B7FC01@comcast.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1910291703380.14736@shell.lmi.net>
 <20191030011056.6D532540CD8@proxy.email-ssl.com.br>
 <6413ae67-8556-c32e-a7aa-48d3edb0b9f1@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCG29RmFNewzGX1NcEFKPc8QCyNAUr5=rgJhnJ8mviLiZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <7bc9ab7d-ce46-131c-7a39-d350f5f5fcfb@gmail.com>
 <D3E0DC0E-1E11-4AC8-BBC3-60447DFEC167@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <2fe0ef07b99716c46cc8a853035b4b41db526052.camel@agj.net>

ons 2019-10-30 klockan 13:17 -0400 skrev Paul Koning via cctalk:
> > 
> In some countries, at least in the early 1980s (Sweden?) the law said
> that private organizations could run communication wires on a floor
> of a building, but to wire from one floor to another was the monopoly
> of the government PTT.  So DEC Ethernet bridges had PTT approval
> stickers on them from those countries, indicating those PTTs would be
> willing to build you a bridged Ethernet from floor 1 to floor 2.
> 

I remember stickers on modems and telephones (ie not televerket
provided equipment) which said that this equipment is certified
to be directly connected to televerket's telephone lines.

But computer network equipment owned by the organization and used
on the organization's premises ?? That i don't remember.

PS
Televerket : Sweden's state owned telephone monopoly, today
known by the public as Telia company. Ellemtel the development
organization was co-owned by Ericsson/LME/Three-bars and Televerket.
DS

PPS
LME still exist in name basically as a holding company for Ericsson.
DSS



From stefan.skoglund at agj.net  Sun Nov  3 10:14:29 2019
From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund)
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2019 17:14:29 +0100
Subject: OT(?): Emulation XKCD
In-Reply-To: <F09F47B2-F6ED-4027-81BE-E811F3D62BAC@avanthar.com>
References: <AEA0A86D-4FC0-4A75-A78C-396235537C1B@swri.edu>
 <CANV78LQ_HGZcpjnbd=5v-dSZU549iH1Sp1rbbNL=nSC__zGOAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <85A6A595-25AC-4EEA-B78B-7C88CEDA273C@avanthar.com>
 <CANV78LR=jeJSYwgsVaYghyDArCUy6UORAkPQYU_W1QqNAo8r-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <F09F47B2-F6ED-4027-81BE-E811F3D62BAC@avanthar.com>
Message-ID: <c9c11fb4bbbd89a0067ad8d763da5fd085b7ed21.camel@agj.net>

ons 2019-10-30 klockan 16:01 -0700 skrev Zane Healy via cctalk:
> > 
> I rebuilt the system recently, and now the error seems
> intermittent.  I will say, that backing up my directory of files, and
> restoring it to the new system was a lot easier than fighting with
> the tape drives we had on the DPS-8 Mainframes I worked with nearly
> 30 years ago (we ran GCOS-8).
> 

My old university had an Pyramid with a normal tape drive - either
way one of my teacher had as his own last year student job being a
system administrator for said machine.

One day he had to restore from backup but finds out that the tape drive
is cranky.

One of his terse comments in the report was:
It is good to fix things immediately when the fault is found - not
waiting until you one day finds out that it is preferable to have said
thing in order.

He had to help the drive start (the drive was sluggish in startup) the
whole evening that day.....


From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Sun Nov  3 11:03:51 2019
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 17:03:51 -0000
Subject: Original DEC logo in PostScript
In-Reply-To: <c93899d01b98e3360d49e7f99745000a3fdfb0a6.camel@agj.net>
References: <C06FEC5B-D719-42C1-BAAE-48A9EE392E8D@gmail.com>	
 <CAEfH1SEjwfY-zh-3qUK+L6-kgVRtoQskrUyMGLO+tiYHY_Pt-A@mail.gmail.com>	
 <030901d58e81$0a7ff120$1f7fd360$@ntlworld.com>
 <c93899d01b98e3360d49e7f99745000a3fdfb0a6.camel@agj.net>
Message-ID: <03de01d59268$ab603240$022096c0$@ntlworld.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stefan Skoglund <stefan.skoglund at agj.net>
> Sent: 03 November 2019 13:37
> To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>; General
> Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>; 'Jason T'
> <silent700 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Original DEC logo in PostScript
> 
> tis 2019-10-29 klockan 17:48 +0000 skrev Rob Jarratt via cctalk:
> > I know next to nothing about PostScript and fonts, is it possible to
> > convert this to a font that can be installed on Windows? I found a
> > site that says it converts it (convertio.co), but I am suspicious of
> > free sites like that.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Rob
> >
> 
> did you solve your problem ?
> 
> Either way doing RTFM - .pfm is binary encoded .afm.
> 
> I did a simple drawing with the font in a ps and exported to pdf.
> 
> 

No I didn't. I did a little bit of searching but didn't find anything except the convertio.co site, which I am reluctant to try unless someone knows it to be safe. If anyone knows of a way to get this to a TrueType font that would be nice. I know so little about fonts, I wonder if there is a way to manually convert it to TrueType, are there any free tools for creating fonts?

Regards

Rob 


From billdegnan at gmail.com  Sun Nov  3 13:43:20 2019
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 14:43:20 -0500
Subject: Original DEC logo in PostScript
In-Reply-To: <03de01d59268$ab603240$022096c0$@ntlworld.com>
References: <C06FEC5B-D719-42C1-BAAE-48A9EE392E8D@gmail.com>
 <CAEfH1SEjwfY-zh-3qUK+L6-kgVRtoQskrUyMGLO+tiYHY_Pt-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <030901d58e81$0a7ff120$1f7fd360$@ntlworld.com>
 <c93899d01b98e3360d49e7f99745000a3fdfb0a6.camel@agj.net>
 <03de01d59268$ab603240$022096c0$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBudLx2owA0zD2h84X_FNgOkuf16BmNf38u-dV51jzxJo_w@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
> No I didn't. I did a little bit of searching but didn't find anything
> except the convertio.co site, which I am reluctant to try unless someone
> knows it to be safe. If anyone knows of a way to get this to a TrueType
> font that would be nice. I know so little about fonts, I wonder if there is
> a way to manually convert it to TrueType, are there any free tools for
> creating fonts?
>
> Regard
>

 What true type font is closest?
Bill

>

From bhilpert at shaw.ca  Sun Nov  3 14:33:02 2019
From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 12:33:02 -0800
Subject: Cheap minicomputer (Tracor-Northern 1610) on Facebook Markeplace
 (Allentown, PA) 18 bit?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20191103083947.00e56608@mail.optusnet.com.au>
References: <5DBDA248.7000307@pico-systems.com>
 <002001d59158$0049e510$00ddaf30$@harlie.org>
 <5DBDA248.7000307@pico-systems.com>
 <3.0.6.32.20191103083947.00e56608@mail.optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <5278C9B6-7D6E-4F03-A28E-3292855F340A@shaw.ca>

On 2019-Nov-02, at 2:39 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote:
>  A rack, a Tektronix XY display,
> a rack drawer, blanking panels, some neat mysterious instruments, two 8" floppy drives,
> and a probable PDP-something all for $45?


For what little it matters, the rack unit immediately below the CRT display is a NIM (Nuclear Instrumentation Module) crate.


From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Nov  3 16:29:59 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 14:29:59 -0800
Subject: Paleontological data fossilized on IBM 8" floppies
In-Reply-To: <20191103134732.3895eb5a@asrock>
References: <329D98B6-ADFA-4C8C-9A9A-65A15AE16BB0@free.fr>
 <9C52E02D-11A6-4E87-B568-B92A8AD2C92A@gmail.com>
 <20191103134732.3895eb5a@asrock>
Message-ID: <326d510b-cc97-e55a-7ee3-b09bcf8a398c@sydex.com>

On 11/3/19 1:47 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote:
> Antoine,
> 
> It's not too difficult to read most "standard" 8" floppies (DEC RX02's being
> the exception). The board below deals with both signal routing between 8" and
> standard PC floppy interfaces and the "TG43" signal required by most 8" drives:

I believe that the TG43 signal (if required; some drives generate it
internally) is only used for writing (reduced write current).

You can probably get by just fine if you've got the connectors handy by
wiring up your own cable.  Micro Solutions, back in the day sold a small
adapter PCB with a 34-conductor PCB edge connector and a 50 conductor
header for connection to a SA-800 style cable.

This assumes that your 8" drive follows the SA-800 pinout convention.
Some early drives (e.g. Calcomp, (IBM) do not.

Same for the power connections.   Many use the Amp (now TE) Mate-N-Lok
connector PIN 1-380999-0, but by no means all.   AC connections, if
needed are subject to the usual 50/60 Hz and line voltage considerations.

I use older open-frame linear power supplies, but the +24V/+5V
requirement is a lot easier to satisfy today, since inexpensive
multi-amp SMPSUs are available (generally less than $15).  Even dual-
and triple- output PSUs are available for around $20 that should supply
more than enough current.

Hope this helps,
Chuck



From bob099 at centurytel.net  Sun Nov  3 16:30:12 2019
From: bob099 at centurytel.net (Bob Yates)
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 16:30:12 -0600
Subject: Free font software
Message-ID: <fa71294b-1658-18d1-048c-94e2bc7ee760@centurytel.net>

Sorry don't know how to respond directly

https://fontforge.github.io/en-US/


From bob099 at centurytel.net  Sun Nov  3 16:32:15 2019
From: bob099 at centurytel.net (Bob Yates)
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 16:32:15 -0600
Subject: Original DEC logo in PostScript
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1572804000.35239.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1572804000.35239.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <d967f74d-fc7b-c83e-b110-5dc80238e359@centurytel.net>


On 11/3/2019 12:00 PM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote:
> Send cctalk mailing list submissions to
> 	cctalk at classiccmp.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> 	http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> 	cctalk-request at classiccmp.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> 	cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>     1. Re: Cheap minicomputer (Tracor-Northern 1610) on Facebook
>        Markeplace (Allentown, PA) 18 bit? (Chris Zach)
>     2. Re: Cheap minicomputer (Tracor-Northern 1610) on Facebook
>        Markeplace (Allentown, PA) 18 bit? (Guy Dunphy)
>     3. Re: Cheap minicomputer (Tracor-Northern 1610) on Facebook
>        Markeplace (Allentown, PA) 18 bit? (ED SHARPE)
>     4. Re: Original DEC logo in PostScript (Stefan Skoglund)
>     5. Re: 50 yrs. ago today (Stefan Skoglund)
>     6. Re: OT(?): Emulation XKCD (Stefan Skoglund)
>     7. RE: Original DEC logo in PostScript (Rob Jarratt)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 13:37:02 -0400
> From: Chris Zach <cz at alembic.crystel.com>
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Cheap minicomputer (Tracor-Northern 1610) on Facebook
> 	Markeplace (Allentown, PA) 18 bit?
> Message-ID: <892fa3cb-ce81-1a92-f165-0c90c8f3f4e7 at alembic.crystel.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> Indeed. I was thinking since it was a 16 bit bus but 18 bit switches
> that it might be an 11/35 or 11/40 inside there. Interesting.
>
> On 11/2/2019 11:35 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
>> On 11/02/2019 03:32 AM, cctalk--- via cctalk wrote:
>>> Has anyone seen this?? It looks like an 18-bit machine.
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/736222363558907/
>> At least at one time, these things contained PDP-11's.? The CPU at the
>> bottom sure looks like a PDP-11,
>> I'm thinking it might actually be a Cal-Data CPU (PDP-11 clone) with a
>> custom logo.
>>
>> Jon
>>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2019 08:39:47 +1100
> From: Guy Dunphy <guykd at optusnet.com.au>
> To: Chris Zach <cz at alembic.crystel.com>, "General Discussion: On-Topic
> 	and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Cheap minicomputer (Tracor-Northern 1610) on Facebook
> 	Markeplace (Allentown, PA) 18 bit?
> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20191103083947.00e56608 at mail.optusnet.com.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Well, it's sold. I hope someone here hought it, and will post some better pics and details.
>
> If it had been near to me I'd have bought it instantly. A rack, a Tektronix XY display,
> a rack drawer, blanking panels, some neat mysterious instruments, two 8" floppy drives,
> and a probable PDP-something all for $45?
> Bet the various items are on slide rails too. How rare is it to get both parts of
> workable slide rails? Here in Oz, virtually unheard of. Separating slide halves and losing
> one half seems to be a near universal syndrome with people who part out test equipment.
>
> Guy (Australia)
>
>
> At 01:37 PM 2/11/2019 -0400, you wrote:
>> Indeed. I was thinking since it was a 16 bit bus but 18 bit switches
>> that it might be an 11/35 or 11/40 inside there. Interesting.
>>
>> On 11/2/2019 11:35 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
>>> On 11/02/2019 03:32 AM, cctalk--- via cctalk wrote:
>>>> Has anyone seen this??? It looks like an 18-bit machine.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/736222363558907/
>>> At least at one time, these things contained PDP-11's.?? The CPU at the
>>> bottom sure looks like a PDP-11,
>>> I'm thinking it might actually be a Cal-Data CPU (PDP-11 clone) with a
>>> custom logo.
>>>
>>> Jon
>>>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 22:56:01 +0000 (UTC)
> From: ED SHARPE <couryhouse at aol.com>
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Cheap minicomputer (Tracor-Northern 1610) on Facebook
> 	Markeplace (Allentown, PA) 18 bit?
> Message-ID: <2032848827.223085.1572735361572 at mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> heck just the empty? rack? with? drawer is? worth that - -Yes Guy I know about the anguish of half sets of rack? rails - we have that in Arizona also!? ?Ed#? ?SMECC
> In a message dated 11/2/2019 2:40:15 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:
>
> Well, it's sold. I hope someone here hought it, and will post some better pics and details.
>
> If it had been near to me I'd have bought it instantly. A rack, a Tektronix XY display,
> a rack drawer, blanking panels, some neat mysterious instruments, two 8" floppy drives,
> and a probable PDP-something all for $45?
> Bet the various items are on slide rails too. How rare is it to get both parts of
> workable slide rails? Here in Oz, virtually unheard of. Separating slide halves and losing
> one half seems to be a near universal syndrome with people who part out test equipment.
>
> Guy (Australia)
>
>
> At 01:37 PM 2/11/2019 -0400, you wrote:
>> Indeed. I was thinking since it was a 16 bit bus but 18 bit switches
>> that it might be an 11/35 or 11/40 inside there. Interesting.
>>
>> On 11/2/2019 11:35 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
>>> On 11/02/2019 03:32 AM, cctalk--- via cctalk wrote:
>>>> Has anyone seen this??? It looks like an 18-bit machine.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/736222363558907/
>>> At least at one time, these things contained PDP-11's.?? The CPU at the
>>> bottom sure looks like a PDP-11,
>>> I'm thinking it might actually be a Cal-Data CPU (PDP-11 clone) with a
>>> custom logo.
>>>
>>> Jon
>>>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2019 14:37:21 +0100
> From: Stefan Skoglund <stefan.skoglund at agj.net>
> To: rob at jarratt.me.uk, Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>,
> 	"General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
> 	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>, 'Jason T' <silent700 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Original DEC logo in PostScript
> Message-ID: <c93899d01b98e3360d49e7f99745000a3fdfb0a6.camel at agj.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> tis 2019-10-29 klockan 17:48 +0000 skrev Rob Jarratt via cctalk:
>> I know next to nothing about PostScript and fonts, is it possible to
>> convert this to a font that can be installed on Windows? I found a
>> site that says it converts it (convertio.co), but I am suspicious of
>> free sites like that.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Rob
>>
> did you solve your problem ?
>
> Either way doing RTFM - .pfm is binary encoded .afm.
>
> I did a simple drawing with the font in a ps and exported to pdf.
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2019 16:01:12 +0100
> From: Stefan Skoglund <stefan.skoglund at agj.net>
> To: Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net>, "General Discussion:
> 	On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>, allison
> 	<allisonportable at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: 50 yrs. ago today
> Message-ID: <2fe0ef07b99716c46cc8a853035b4b41db526052.camel at agj.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> ons 2019-10-30 klockan 13:17 -0400 skrev Paul Koning via cctalk:
>> In some countries, at least in the early 1980s (Sweden?) the law said
>> that private organizations could run communication wires on a floor
>> of a building, but to wire from one floor to another was the monopoly
>> of the government PTT.  So DEC Ethernet bridges had PTT approval
>> stickers on them from those countries, indicating those PTTs would be
>> willing to build you a bridged Ethernet from floor 1 to floor 2.
>>
> I remember stickers on modems and telephones (ie not televerket
> provided equipment) which said that this equipment is certified
> to be directly connected to televerket's telephone lines.
>
> But computer network equipment owned by the organization and used
> on the organization's premises ?? That i don't remember.
>
> PS
> Televerket : Sweden's state owned telephone monopoly, today
> known by the public as Telia company. Ellemtel the development
> organization was co-owned by Ericsson/LME/Three-bars and Televerket.
> DS
>
> PPS
> LME still exist in name basically as a holding company for Ericsson.
> DSS
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2019 17:14:29 +0100
> From: Stefan Skoglund <stefan.skoglund at agj.net>
> To: Zane Healy <healyzh at avanthar.com>, "General Discussion: On-Topic
> 	and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>, Charles Anthony
> 	<charles.unix.pro at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: OT(?): Emulation XKCD
> Message-ID: <c9c11fb4bbbd89a0067ad8d763da5fd085b7ed21.camel at agj.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> ons 2019-10-30 klockan 16:01 -0700 skrev Zane Healy via cctalk:
>> I rebuilt the system recently, and now the error seems
>> intermittent.  I will say, that backing up my directory of files, and
>> restoring it to the new system was a lot easier than fighting with
>> the tape drives we had on the DPS-8 Mainframes I worked with nearly
>> 30 years ago (we ran GCOS-8).
>>
> My old university had an Pyramid with a normal tape drive - either
> way one of my teacher had as his own last year student job being a
> system administrator for said machine.
>
> One day he had to restore from backup but finds out that the tape drive
> is cranky.
>
> One of his terse comments in the report was:
> It is good to fix things immediately when the fault is found - not
> waiting until you one day finds out that it is preferable to have said
> thing in order.
>
> He had to help the drive start (the drive was sluggish in startup) the
> whole evening that day.....
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 17:03:51 -0000
> From: "Rob Jarratt" <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>
> To: "'Stefan Skoglund'" <stefan.skoglund at agj.net>,
> 	<rob at jarratt.me.uk>, "'General	Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
> 	Posts'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>,  "'Jason T'" <silent700 at gmail.com>
> Subject: RE: Original DEC logo in PostScript
> Message-ID: <03de01d59268$ab603240$022096c0$@ntlworld.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="utf-8"
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Stefan Skoglund <stefan.skoglund at agj.net>
>> Sent: 03 November 2019 13:37
>> To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>; General
>> Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>; 'Jason T'
>> <silent700 at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: Original DEC logo in PostScript
>>
>> tis 2019-10-29 klockan 17:48 +0000 skrev Rob Jarratt via cctalk:
>>> I know next to nothing about PostScript and fonts, is it possible to
>>> convert this to a font that can be installed on Windows? I found a
>>> site that says it converts it (convertio.co), but I am suspicious of
>>> free sites like that.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Rob
>>>
>> did you solve your problem ?
>>
>> Either way doing RTFM - .pfm is binary encoded .afm.
>>
>> I did a simple drawing with the font in a ps and exported to pdf.
>>
>>
> No I didn't. I did a little bit of searching but didn't find anything except the convertio.co site, which I am reluctant to try unless someone knows it to be safe. If anyone knows of a way to get this to a TrueType font that would be nice. I know so little about fonts, I wonder if there is a way to manually convert it to TrueType, are there any free tools for creating fonts?
>
> Regards
>
> Rob
>
https://fontforge.github.io/en-US/


From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Sun Nov  3 17:19:10 2019
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 23:19:10 -0000
Subject: Free font software
In-Reply-To: <fa71294b-1658-18d1-048c-94e2bc7ee760@centurytel.net>
References: <fa71294b-1658-18d1-048c-94e2bc7ee760@centurytel.net>
Message-ID: <03f401d5929d$199789a0$4cc69ce0$@ntlworld.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Bob Yates via
> cctalk
> Sent: 03 November 2019 22:30
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Free font software
> 
> Sorry don't know how to respond directly
> 
> https://fontforge.github.io/en-US/

Thanks, will see if I can understand it.

Regards

Rob


From elson at pico-systems.com  Sun Nov  3 19:06:35 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2019 19:06:35 -0600
Subject: Cheap minicomputer (Tracor-Northern 1610) on Facebook Markeplace
 (Allentown, PA) 18 bit?
In-Reply-To: <5278C9B6-7D6E-4F03-A28E-3292855F340A@shaw.ca>
References: <5DBDA248.7000307@pico-systems.com>
 <002001d59158$0049e510$00ddaf30$@harlie.org>
 <5DBDA248.7000307@pico-systems.com>
 <3.0.6.32.20191103083947.00e56608@mail.optusnet.com.au>
 <5278C9B6-7D6E-4F03-A28E-3292855F340A@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <5DBF799B.1060505@pico-systems.com>

On 11/03/2019 02:33 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote:
> On 2019-Nov-02, at 2:39 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote:
>>   A rack, a Tektronix XY display,
>> a rack drawer, blanking panels, some neat mysterious instruments, two 8" floppy drives,
>> and a probable PDP-something all for $45?
>
> For what little it matters, the rack unit immediately below the CRT display is a NIM (Nuclear Instrumentation Module) crate.
>
>
It appears to be a complete multichannel analyzer for 
nuclear detectors.  It takes an analog signal, detects the
peak value, runs that through an ADC and then increments a 
memory location related to the ADC value, thus
producing a histogram of pulse heights.  These are 
equivalent to particle or Gamma ray energy.  Then, the
computer software can analyze it and tell you what 
isotope(s) produced that pattern.  This was a late 70's to
early 80's system that was in use at a number of physics 
labs and related research areas.

Jon

From trash80 at internode.on.net  Sun Nov  3 23:59:10 2019
From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 16:59:10 +1100
Subject: TI994/A Power Supply
Message-ID: <017501d592d4$faf1f2a0$f0d5d7e0$@internode.on.net>

I may be stating the obvious here but looking for a little advice and
reassurance from anyone on the list who may have had experience with these
machines. 

I have a couple of TI99/4A's that I was given quite a long time ago along
with about 50 software cartridges (if I understand things correctly the
cartridges on their own a quite a bonus). What I am missing are power
supplies. On my research the inputs are 12 and/or 5 volt depending on the
number of power pins on the back (mine have 2). 

These voltages appear to neatly align with most PC power supplies so I
should be able to tap into an old AT power supply of which I have quite a
few. 

Thank you.

Kevin Parker



From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Nov  4 05:12:13 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 12:12:13 +0100
Subject: TI994/A Power Supply
In-Reply-To: <017501d592d4$faf1f2a0$f0d5d7e0$@internode.on.net>
References: <017501d592d4$faf1f2a0$f0d5d7e0$@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCF=x-87AFe7qbwBXHdhQQ6smhA-qiipvtN0P24hFzUAJw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 at 06:59, Kevin Parker via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>
> These voltages appear to neatly align with most PC power supplies so I
> should be able to tap into an old AT power supply of which I have quite a
> few.

The PSU apparently outputs AC, not DC, which is unusual... but a PC
PSU can do it, and Molex connectors can be bodged into fitting.

Does this help?

http://oldcomputer.info/8bit/ti99/index.htm

Schematic:
http://www.mainbyte.com/ti99/hardware/power_supply.html

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From guykd at optusnet.com.au  Mon Nov  4 05:30:57 2019
From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy)
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2019 22:30:57 +1100
Subject: Free font software
In-Reply-To: <fa71294b-1658-18d1-048c-94e2bc7ee760@centurytel.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20191104223057.012d1db0@mail.optusnet.com.au>

At 04:30 PM 3/11/2019 -0600, Bob Yates wrote:
>Sorry don't know how to respond directly

There's always the last resort of ctl-C copy and a text editor?


>https://fontforge.github.io/en-US/

Have you (or anyone here) actually tried Fontforge?
I had a go back in mid 2018, and then it seemed to be semi-abandoned,
full of bugs, poorly documented and possibly unworkable.
Or at least I fell off the 'learning cliff' and couldn't achieve what
I wanted. Admittedly the subject is extremely complicated, so maybe it
was just me and my 60+ year old brain.

Gave up on Fontforge and decided to buy a commercial font utility (with
real manuals) next time I have enough spare cash. (Which hasn't happened yet.)

Guy

From wrcooke at wrcooke.net  Mon Nov  4 05:57:58 2019
From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 05:57:58 -0600 (CST)
Subject: TI994/A Power Supply
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCF=x-87AFe7qbwBXHdhQQ6smhA-qiipvtN0P24hFzUAJw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <017501d592d4$faf1f2a0$f0d5d7e0$@internode.on.net>
 <CAMTenCF=x-87AFe7qbwBXHdhQQ6smhA-qiipvtN0P24hFzUAJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1611756071.501567.1572868678411@email.ionos.com>

> On November 4, 2019 at 5:12 AM Liam Proven via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 at 06:59, Kevin Parker via cctalk<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:>>> These voltages appear to neatly align with most PC power supplies so Ishould be able to tap into an old AT power supply of which I have quite afew.The PSU apparently outputs AC, not DC, which is unusual... but a PCPSU can do it, and Molex connectors can be bodged into fitting.
> Does this help?
> http://oldcomputer.info/8bit/ti99/index.htm
> Schematic:http://www.mainbyte.com/ti99/hardware/power_supply.html

A couple of notes.  First, I'm not all too familiar with the TI, but I was always under the impression the PS provided +5 and +12 DC.  For a while in the 80s the power supply module was available separate (even from Radio Shack!) and I bought one.
I did a quick search and found the same site Liam linked above.  It shows a schematic of a transformer providing 8 and 16 VAC, but then also mentions that there are various schematics floating around and that the author has been told his is non-standard.  It does also mention, however, that the machine uses 4116 RAM which requires -5V as well.  The summary is that I would make real sure what it takes before connecting anything.  If it does indeed need AC, it may use the AC internally to regulate -5V and providing DC could damage the RAM.
Another note is that many PC power supplies will have a minimum required load that the TI may not meet.  Some will simply not power on if the load isn't met, but I have seen a few that will provide unregulated voltage.  Been a while since I saw one of those, though.  but do be careful.

Will



"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." --  Antoine de Saint-Exupery


"The names of global variables should start with    // "  -- https://isocpp.org

From allisonportable at gmail.com  Mon Nov  4 07:39:12 2019
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (Allison Parent)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 08:39:12 -0500
Subject: TI994/A Power Supply
In-Reply-To: <017501d592d4$faf1f2a0$f0d5d7e0$@internode.on.net>
References: <017501d592d4$faf1f2a0$f0d5d7e0$@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <B026DD6E-17A7-4F8D-B931-259B9CB854C8@gmail.com>

Do better research. 
The power is external transformer and internal low voltage switch mode power supply. 

Having carts is good.  The bonus is an expansion box with floppy and cards. 

FYI back when ratshack sold both. 

Allison


IPhoned it in!

> On Nov 4, 2019, at 12:59 AM, Kevin Parker via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 

?I may be stating the obvious here but looking for a little advice and
reassurance from anyone on the list who may have had experience with these
machines. 

I have a couple of TI99/4A's that I was given quite a long time ago along
with about 50 software cartridges (if I understand things correctly the
cartridges on their own a quite a bonus). What I am missing are power
supplies. On my research the inputs are 12 and/or 5 volt depending on the
number of power pins on the back (mine have 2). 

These voltages appear to neatly align with most PC power supplies so I
should be able to tap into an old AT power supply of which I have quite a
few. 

Thank you.

Kevin Parker



From paulkoning at comcast.net  Mon Nov  4 08:33:12 2019
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 09:33:12 -0500
Subject: Free font software
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20191104223057.012d1db0@mail.optusnet.com.au>
References: <3.0.6.32.20191104223057.012d1db0@mail.optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <5BCEC6A3-3DB4-4B37-9254-89C1EC8B65B9@comcast.net>



> On Nov 4, 2019, at 6:30 AM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> At 04:30 PM 3/11/2019 -0600, Bob Yates wrote:
>> Sorry don't know how to respond directly
> 
> There's always the last resort of ctl-C copy and a text editor?
> 
> 
>> https://fontforge.github.io/en-US/
> 
> Have you (or anyone here) actually tried Fontforge?
> I had a go back in mid 2018, and then it seemed to be semi-abandoned,
> full of bugs, poorly documented and possibly unworkable.
> Or at least I fell off the 'learning cliff' and couldn't achieve what
> I wanted. Admittedly the subject is extremely complicated, so maybe it
> was just me and my 60+ year old brain.

I haven't done all that much with it, but yes, I've used it, and it seemed fine.

> Gave up on Fontforge and decided to buy a commercial font utility (with
> real manuals) next time I have enough spare cash. (Which hasn't happened yet.)

One problem with commercial tools is that they generally are for Windows, which I don't want to use.

	paul


From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net  Mon Nov  4 11:29:21 2019
From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 12:29:21 -0500
Subject: swtpc.com expired???
References: <018301d59335$657b0b10$30712130$.ref@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <018301d59335$657b0b10$30712130$@verizon.net>

Anybody know if Mike Holley is OK?

Bill S.



-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


From billdegnan at gmail.com  Mon Nov  4 11:55:14 2019
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 12:55:14 -0500
Subject: swtpc.com expired???
In-Reply-To: <018301d59335$657b0b10$30712130$@verizon.net>
References: <018301d59335$657b0b10$30712130$.ref@verizon.net>
 <018301d59335$657b0b10$30712130$@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <CABGJBuenupOtixSKNjv-fYO4BgK+6=oishnh8s8GkTJUZn9RHQ@mail.gmail.com>

Happens all of the time...people lelt domain regs lapse for a few days, I
am sure it'll be back up soon

On Mon, Nov 4, 2019, 12:30 PM William Sudbrink via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Anybody know if Mike Holley is OK?
>
> Bill S.
>
>
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Mon Nov  4 12:04:19 2019
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 18:04:19 +0000
Subject: swtpc.com expired???
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBuenupOtixSKNjv-fYO4BgK+6=oishnh8s8GkTJUZn9RHQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <018301d59335$657b0b10$30712130$.ref@verizon.net>
 <018301d59335$657b0b10$30712130$@verizon.net>
 <CABGJBuenupOtixSKNjv-fYO4BgK+6=oishnh8s8GkTJUZn9RHQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DM6PR01MB398040D3789B933798501294ED7F0@DM6PR01MB3980.prod.exchangelabs.com>

On 11/4/19 12:55 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
> Happens all of the time...people lelt domain regs lapse for a few days, I
> am sure it'll be back up soon

Probably as a porn site.  :-(

bill


From annelies.vanopstal at gmail.com  Mon Nov  4 04:03:54 2019
From: annelies.vanopstal at gmail.com (A'vanOpstal)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 11:03:54 +0100
Subject: Hyperland and Doctor Who (Was: 70's computers
Message-ID: <D475512A-1338-4162-8137-DDF7C33DE21E@gmail.com>

hello there,


just read your reply in the thread "70?s computers" (from about a year ago) where you talk about having created a .SRT file for Hyperland.

Is it still possible to get a copy of that .SRT file? 
That would be rreally sweet, 'd love to show this docu to a bunch o? millenials. Can?t wait to see their jaws drop ;.)

Thanks allready!
Kind regards,

annelies 


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Nov  4 13:31:55 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 11:31:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Hyperland and Doctor Who (Was: 70's computers
In-Reply-To: <D475512A-1338-4162-8137-DDF7C33DE21E@gmail.com>
References: <D475512A-1338-4162-8137-DDF7C33DE21E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911041129210.15228@shell.lmi.net>

On Mon, 4 Nov 2019, A'vanOpstal via cctalk wrote:
> hello there,
> just read your reply in the thread "70???s computers" (from about a year ago) where you talk about having created a .SRT file for Hyperland.
> Is it still possible to get a copy of that .SRT file?
> That would be rreally sweet, 'd love to show this docu to a bunch o??? millenials. Can???t wait to see their jaws drop ;.)

I hope that these links still work, . . .

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4hCJm9ZEADCblVSVlBxdmZyREU/view?usp=drive_web
(400MB video with subtitles burned in)

https://ia800308.us.archive.org/15/items/DouglasAdams-Hyperland/DouglasAdams-Hyperland.mp4
(without captions/subtitles)

.SRT file:
http://www.xenosoft.com/HyperlandCAPS_En_US_0_77.srt

I recommend renaming the .srt file to .txt if you want to look at it in
NOTEPAD, although I set my "associations" in Win7 to open .SRT in NOTEPAD 
by default.


From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Mon Nov  4 21:35:16 2019
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 19:35:16 -0800
Subject: getting your data from yahoo
In-Reply-To: <02ceff7263384a7a895076a0ff62610f@livingcomputers.org>
References: <16a8aa5e-2afa-fde2-1367-3ef74d55a845@bitsavers.org>
 <2a1b01d59090$e23e4600$a6bad200$@gmail.com>
 <02ceff7263384a7a895076a0ff62610f@livingcomputers.org>
Message-ID: <67a8b848-ab20-7fda-30fd-fa58dd6c82f0@jwsss.com>



On 11/1/2019 6:33 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote:
> What tool do I use to look at the contents of this verschlagener file?
Rich,
with some degree of luck, Thunderbird will process it.? At least it used 
to.? the mbox format is pretty much what they used to use.

I create a folder of some sort with Thunderbird open.? Then I close out 
all vestiges of it.? Then find your profile directory, and navigate
to the directory you created in your account.

Drop your mbox file in there and restart Thunderbird.

I don't know when they modified it to use databases, you may need to go 
back some number of revisions of Thunderbird to get to that.

thanks
Jim

From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Mon Nov  4 21:37:02 2019
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 19:37:02 -0800
Subject: getting your data from yahoo
In-Reply-To: <16a8aa5e-2afa-fde2-1367-3ef74d55a845@bitsavers.org>
References: <16a8aa5e-2afa-fde2-1367-3ef74d55a845@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <a92bb892-6d19-16f5-55d2-1ffe69dc4af4@jwsss.com>



On 10/31/2019 9:38 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> someone just posted this on twitter
> they seem to have sent an email to everyone and didn't bother to mention this
>
> https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/getmydata
I got a link from them 24 hours later.? So far the main difference 
between my own constructed archives is that the email archive is either 
json files, (Cameron's archive tool), or in individual eml files (Dave 
Wade's tool).

The files all seem to be supplied.

I ended up with 4.5gb of data, and about 40 groups.
thanks
Jim

From rescue at hawkmountain.net  Mon Nov  4 23:05:51 2019
From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (rescue)
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2019 00:05:51 -0500
Subject: Qume Qumetrack 542 track seeking issue
Message-ID: <4897dc5e5abd22aae4823f72ea284b9e@localhost>


Been away for some time from the mailing lists....  getting back into 
my classic gear again....

I have two of these Qumetrack 542 drives.

While testing my 360K drive collection (8 drives.... I must be slacking 
:-) ...), 2 worked, 4 had issue (resolved with a good head cleaning), 
and 2 (both of the Qumetrack 542 drives (I have two of them)) have mixed 
results.  My testing is on a Tandy 2500SX/33 using the Tandy straight 
through cable and with the drives set do DS0.

I seem to have no issue with Dunfield's testfdc (using testfdc/x a:) 
with these drives, doing SS and DD and getting 'pass' from testfdc.

However, when I do a format a:, the drive will format through the 40 
tracks, then instead of the heads returning to track 0 quickly, they do 
these small stepping 'bursts' and DOS times out saying failure..... it 
probably would have worked if DOS would wait 10 seconds or more for the 
drive to move to track 0.

I've never seen behavior like this.  I even tried an external power 
supply in case the Tandy one wasn't up to driving the full height floppy 
drive due to an aging marginal supply, but that didn't help anything.

I've now also had one of them shut down the power supply (a shorted 
tantalum cap I'm sure).

I've looked through the manual on the drive, I've tried the HM, HS, and 
no jumper setting for stepper motor power, same results in all cases.

I'm trying too determine if these drives are good.  I'm planning on 
using them in a Tandy Model III that is upgraded internally to a Model 
IV, but I feel these are basic drives and should work in DOS fine too.

I hope someone has a clue, as I'm tapped out of them currently.

Thanks,

-- Curt


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Nov  5 00:23:08 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 22:23:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Qume Qumetrack 542 track seeking issue
In-Reply-To: <4897dc5e5abd22aae4823f72ea284b9e@localhost>
References: <4897dc5e5abd22aae4823f72ea284b9e@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911042206390.15228@shell.lmi.net>

On Tue, 5 Nov 2019, rescue via cctalk wrote:
> However, when I do a format a:, the drive will format through the 40 tracks, 
> then instead of the heads returning to track 0 quickly, they do these small 
> stepping 'bursts' and DOS times out saying failure..... it probably would 
> have worked if DOS would wait 10 seconds or more for the drive to move to 
> track 0.

Which version of DOS are you using?

Slight variation, . . .
IBM used Qumetrak 142 (half-height 5.25") on the PCJr and "Portable PC" 
(similar to Compaq)   It is a SLOW stepping drive.
One of the differences between PC-DOS 2.00 and 2.10 (released at that
time) is that 2.10 has a much longer stepping time.  The previous 
stepping time by default in PC-DOS 2.00 was not long enough for the 
Qumetrak 142 to step.  Getting the step pulses too quickly caused it to 
miss some of them.

Consider building a different table in memory, and repointing Int1Eh at 
the new table.


BTW, MS-DOS 2.11 is one of the versions of MS-DOS that has a lot of OEM 
customization.  For example, IBM didn't support 720K until PC-DOS 3.20, 
but there were a number of MS-DOS machines that started using 720K at 
2.11   Gavilan's 3.5" format didn't match the one that IBM went with 
until Gavilan MS-DOS 2.llK
(The other MS-DOS version with a lot of customization is 3.31.  For 
example, support of drives larger than 32MB)


From elson at pico-systems.com  Tue Nov  5 11:10:37 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2019 11:10:37 -0600
Subject: Andromeda disk controller diag/format disk found
In-Reply-To: <5DBF799B.1060505@pico-systems.com>
References: <5DBDA248.7000307@pico-systems.com>
 <002001d59158$0049e510$00ddaf30$@harlie.org>
 <5DBDA248.7000307@pico-systems.com>
 <3.0.6.32.20191103083947.00e56608@mail.optusnet.com.au>
 <5278C9B6-7D6E-4F03-A28E-3292855F340A@shaw.ca>
 <5DBF799B.1060505@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <5DC1AD0D.1020701@pico-systems.com>

If anybody has an Andromeda Q-bus MFM hard drive/floppy 
controller, I have dug up the diags/utilities disk for it.
This will boot from the floppy on an LSI-11 or MicroVAX-II 
and allow you to format drives and run diagnostics.

Anybody need this?  I have no idea if the floppy is still 
readable, although it has been stored in good
conditions.

Jon

From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue Nov  5 12:11:30 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 10:11:30 -0800
Subject: Andromeda disk controller diag/format disk found
In-Reply-To: <5DC1AD0D.1020701@pico-systems.com>
References: <5DBDA248.7000307@pico-systems.com>
 <002001d59158$0049e510$00ddaf30$@harlie.org>
 <5DBDA248.7000307@pico-systems.com>
 <3.0.6.32.20191103083947.00e56608@mail.optusnet.com.au>
 <5278C9B6-7D6E-4F03-A28E-3292855F340A@shaw.ca>
 <5DBF799B.1060505@pico-systems.com> <5DC1AD0D.1020701@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <272f5379-8401-b8e3-80b7-a2eec88098ca@bitsavers.org>

it would be good to get it archived.
I can do it if no one else volunteers

On 11/5/19 9:10 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
> If anybody has an Andromeda Q-bus MFM hard drive/floppy controller, I have dug up the diags/utilities disk for it.
> This will boot from the floppy on an LSI-11 or MicroVAX-II and allow you to format drives and run diagnostics.
> 
> Anybody need this?? I have no idea if the floppy is still readable, although it has been stored in good
> conditions.
> 
> Jon


From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Tue Nov  5 12:33:57 2019
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 13:33:57 -0500
Subject: Andromeda disk controller diag/format disk found
In-Reply-To: <272f5379-8401-b8e3-80b7-a2eec88098ca@bitsavers.org>
References: <5DBDA248.7000307@pico-systems.com>
 <002001d59158$0049e510$00ddaf30$@harlie.org>
 <5DBDA248.7000307@pico-systems.com>
 <3.0.6.32.20191103083947.00e56608@mail.optusnet.com.au>
 <5278C9B6-7D6E-4F03-A28E-3292855F340A@shaw.ca>
 <5DBF799B.1060505@pico-systems.com> <5DC1AD0D.1020701@pico-systems.com>
 <272f5379-8401-b8e3-80b7-a2eec88098ca@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <2d9354b3-58c4-22a0-38d5-e4710cb3c8b2@alembic.crystel.com>

Agreed. I might have one of those controllers in my pile, information on 
them is now exceptionally rare, and without things like those disks one 
is sunk.

Also have an MTI ESDI Q Bus controller in my 11/73. It has its' own 
serial port that allows you to configure if you know the "HELLO" 
password, which is "MTI" (all caps). Without that bit of info it's 
useless....

C


On 11/5/2019 1:11 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> it would be good to get it archived.
> I can do it if no one else volunteers
> 
> On 11/5/19 9:10 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
>> If anybody has an Andromeda Q-bus MFM hard drive/floppy controller, I have dug up the diags/utilities disk for it.
>> This will boot from the floppy on an LSI-11 or MicroVAX-II and allow you to format drives and run diagnostics.
>>
>> Anybody need this?? I have no idea if the floppy is still readable, although it has been stored in good
>> conditions.
>>
>> Jon
> 

From mark.tapley at swri.org  Tue Nov  5 11:03:45 2019
From: mark.tapley at swri.org (Tapley, Mark B.)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 17:03:45 +0000
Subject: George Schmidt, Distinguished Lectures, January 16, 2020
In-Reply-To: <7C10038A-40D7-489F-A235-72FF902DB6DD@csr.utexas.edu>
References: <0241cec1991a4dbdb9539515886e9d7a@mbx260-2.adm.swri.edu>
 <C32FD584-16AA-4D09-8CB3-A897D62FB8CF@swri.edu>
 <7C10038A-40D7-489F-A235-72FF902DB6DD@csr.utexas.edu>
Message-ID: <0193DBDB-7128-4743-A1B0-A3837E1910AC@swri.edu>

All,
Southwest Research Institute will be hosting a talk in San Antonio, (Texas, USA) by one of the engineers involved in the Apollo navigation effort, George T. Schmidt. I understand he is aware of and very interested in the Apollo Guidance Computer work done by some of the folks on this list and others, but anyone who has not had a chance to talk to him might well be interested in attending, and would certainly be welcome.
The abstract and title for the talk are below, along with the URL for the IEEE distinguished lecturer website (which doesn?t say any more than I have copied below).
Anyone interested in attending, let me know and I?ll forward more details as I learn them. I expect the lecture will be around noon on Jan. 16 at SwRI, with a repeat at St. Mary?s University in the evening.

   Inside Apollo: Heroes, Rules and Lessons Learned in the Guidance, Navigation, and Control (GNC) System Development<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Furldefense.proofpoint.com-252Fv2-252Furl-253Fu-253Dhttp-2D3A-5F-5Fieee-2D2Daess.org-5Feducation-5Fdistinguished-2D2Dlecturer-2D2Dand-2D2Dtutorial-2D2Dprogram-2D23distinguished-2D5Flecturers-2D2Dpage-2D2D43-2526d-253DDwMF-2Dg-2526c-253Dl-5FIU86Q8JTGnHn9K9kRmRlrLmhfeE6S9tCyr6T8mzvM-2526r-253DehIBzbX07SakVMlEsMuaiVybO2xDCAWTC2BEwTwx6kc-2526m-253D8ocFChv1PsTfMjQgR2IEGXeWyQLbQ0hME3uPvuOVhQI-2526s-253DLpnaLcS4iDLhcUXnXsyIIsTyQZX9wCPcjTELA9VwD7I-2526e-253D-26data-3D02-257C01-257C-257Cf9b6006f56734b34161708d7595b16ec-257C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa-257C1-257C0-257C637076120070648530-26sdata-3DmflYmdxLkkbSc6h28I8dk4WB-252BtnCNPzaI-252BDs4npakHU-253D-26reserved-3D0&d=DwMF-g&c=l_IU86Q8JTGnHn9K9kRmRlrLmhfeE6S9tCyr6T8mzvM&r=ehIBzbX07SakVMlEsMuaiVybO2xDCAWTC2BEwTwx6kc&m=o-qxDJEB-KpO4CcrvMZ7t6UmNjGi1Vch9gmWrAZMEDw&s=OjoUaMQGNRqr6mrrzAKlf5Iy8ZPGJeiYZrcQVEmnaKY&e=>

This Abstract was written in March 2019 which is halfway between the 50th Anniversaries of Apollo 8 (Dec 1968) and Apollo 11 (July 1969).  Those 2 flights were among the greatest explorations of mankind.  In 8, astronauts deliberately put themselves in orbit around the moon expecting the rocket engine to later fire and bring them home to Earth.  In 11, it was mankind?s first visit to the moon and Tranquility Base.  Movies, books, articles, and documentaries have covered the space race.  The author will give his thoughts based on 10 years inside the GNC program design, many hours in the Spacecraft Control room at Cape Kennedy monitoring GNC performance through liftoff, and then providing real-time mission support to NASA from MIT in Cambridge, MA.

that abstract appears on this website:

http://ieee-aess.org/education/distinguished-lecturer-and-tutorial-program#distinguished_lecturers-page-43

                                        - Mark
                                        210-522-6025 office
                                        210-379-4635 cell

From rescue at hawkmountain.net  Tue Nov  5 12:45:28 2019
From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (rescue)
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2019 13:45:28 -0500
Subject: Floppy drive (DSDD) DOS compatability woes (are these drives
 =?UTF-8?Q?ok=3F=29?=
Message-ID: <d669208fff4930afa233d8ce3f1972b6@localhost>


Been away for some time from the mailing lists....  getting back into 
my classic gear again....

I have two of these Qumetrack 542 drives.

While testing my 360K drive collection (8 drives.... I must be slacking 
:-) ...), 2 worked, 4 had issue (resolved with a good head cleaning), 
and 2 (both of the Qumetrack 542 drives (I have two of them)) have mixed 
results.  My testing is on a Tandy 2500SX/33 using the Tandy straight 
through cable and with the drives set do DS0.

I seem to have no issue with Dunfield's testfdc (using testfdc/x a:) 
with these drives, doing SS and DD and getting 'pass' from testfdc.  I 
can also use his imagedisk program, go to the alignment section, and I 
can track the drive properly up an down the disk.... it is just DOS that 
can't seem to do it.

However, when I do a format a:, the drive will format through the 40 
tracks, then instead of the heads returning to track 0 quickly, they do 
these small stepping 'bursts' and DOS times out saying failure..... it 
probably would have worked if DOS would wait 10 seconds or more for the 
drive to move to track 0.

I've never seen behavior like this.  I even tried an external power 
supply in case the Tandy one wasn't up to driving the full height floppy 
drive due to an aging marginal supply, but that didn't help anything.

I've now also had one of them shut down the power supply (a shorted 
tantalum cap I'm sure).

I've looked through the manual on the drive, I've tried the HM, HS, and 
no jumper setting for stepper motor power, same results in all cases.

I'm trying too determine if these drives are good.  I'm planning on 
using them in a Tandy Model III that is upgraded internally to a Model 
IV, but I feel these are basic drives and should work in DOS fine too.

I hope someone has a clue, as I'm tapped out of them currently.

Thanks,

-- Curt


From rescue at hawkmountain.net  Tue Nov  5 12:50:33 2019
From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (rescue)
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2019 13:50:33 -0500
Subject: TRS-80 Model III stopped responding
Message-ID: <f527be44e454ba1176f585d66fe6f172@localhost>


I haven't dug into this one yet, but I did get it booted in trsdos, and 
the letter I on the keyboard wasn't working.

I shut it off, disconnected and removed the keyboard.  I desoldered and 
removed the APLS switch, opened it up, cleaned up the carbon pad and the 
contacts below it, reassembled it, tested it with my DVM, all good to 
go.  I soldered it back into the keyboard, put the keyboard back, 
powered on the system....

I get CRT glow, system reset button will cause the floppy drive to 
seek, but nothing on the screen, and pressing return after inserting 
TRSDOS does not boot the drive (i.e. testing for a working core system 
with no display....).

I do need to test the power supplies and make sure I have not lost a 
power rail on one of the two supplies.  I presume the one I need to 
check is the one on the backside of the cpu board, as the one on the 
side of the drive 'cage' powers the drives and the drive controller 
board, and on power up and reset, the drives are motor on and tracking, 
so I think that supply is at least providing +5/+12V.

Seems odd that putting the keyboard back in resulted in a non working 
system.  I unplugged it, same behavior with no keyboard plugged in.  I 
did not connect the kb connector off by one pin or one row.... so as 
best as I can tall, Murphy has struck, and it isn't 'operator error' 
:-).

Any tips from Model III experts welcome.

--  Curt


From rescue at hawkmountain.net  Tue Nov  5 13:00:05 2019
From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (rescue)
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2019 14:00:05 -0500
Subject: TRS-80 Model III and IV parts needed (keycaps, keyboard switch,
 ribbon cable, floppy drive parts)
Message-ID: <022fecb4d63b769796f09f9e85cde74b@localhost>


So, on this Model III I'm working on the following keycaps are missing:

1/! key
right shift key

Looks like keycaps from a Model III, and possibly a model I would work. 
Probably a Model IV keycap for 1/! would work, but I think the right 
shift key would be different between a Model III and Model IV.

I also need one of the ALPS switches as the '+' part of the stem is 
broken off.

In addition, on the drive (Texas Peripherals), there is a plastic 
component that screws onto the aluminum arm with the diskette retaining 
hub with 2 screws.... it then accepts two plastic pins that connect this 
piece to the drive door.  I am missing on of the plastic pins and the 
plastic piece is cracking.
Anyone have any of these parts kicking around.

On a Model III upgraded to a Model IV I have, the ribbon cable to the 
serial/com board has 'self destructed' as the glue failed, so once 
removed it could not be reconnected.  Interestingly the cable for the 
floppy controller did not deteriorate ?????

Sadly on the upgraded Model III someone converted it to 3 drives, using 
an original full height drive for the 1st drive (at the bottom), and put 
2 HH drives in the top bay.  To make room for the eject control on the 
top drive, the upper case has been notched.  It would be nice to find an 
upper case for a Model III and do away with that notch.... or 
alternately an empty Model IV case (top and bottom).

Thanks to anyone with any TRS-80 'parts vault' that may have these 
parts available....  It has been a long time since I have touched a 
Model I/III (last time was probably 1983 :-) ).  Looking forward to 
getting the 3 systems I have up and running (Model I with Expansion, 
Model III, and a Model III upgraded to a Model IV).

Thanks in advance,

-- Curt



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Nov  5 17:14:28 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 15:14:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Qume Qumetrack 542 track seeking issue
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911042206390.15228@shell.lmi.net>
References: <4897dc5e5abd22aae4823f72ea284b9e@localhost>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911042206390.15228@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911051513400.784@shell.lmi.net>

The TRS80 step time is leisurely.

If the problem is the PC step time, it probably won't matter for TRS80 
use.

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Nov  5 17:17:07 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 15:17:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: TRS-80 Model III and IV parts needed (keycaps, keyboard switch,
 ribbon cable, floppy drive parts)
In-Reply-To: <022fecb4d63b769796f09f9e85cde74b@localhost>
References: <022fecb4d63b769796f09f9e85cde74b@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911051515080.784@shell.lmi.net>

On Tue, 5 Nov 2019, rescue via cctalk wrote:
> Looks like keycaps from a Model III, and possibly a model I would work.

Early model I will not fit, but the last of the model I keyboards might.
(There were several different keyboards used)


From elson at pico-systems.com  Tue Nov  5 21:08:30 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2019 21:08:30 -0600
Subject: Andromeda disk controller diag/format disk found
In-Reply-To: <272f5379-8401-b8e3-80b7-a2eec88098ca@bitsavers.org>
References: <5DBDA248.7000307@pico-systems.com>
 <002001d59158$0049e510$00ddaf30$@harlie.org>
 <5DBDA248.7000307@pico-systems.com>
 <3.0.6.32.20191103083947.00e56608@mail.optusnet.com.au>
 <5278C9B6-7D6E-4F03-A28E-3292855F340A@shaw.ca>
 <5DBF799B.1060505@pico-systems.com> <5DC1AD0D.1020701@pico-systems.com>
 <272f5379-8401-b8e3-80b7-a2eec88098ca@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <5DC2392E.2080206@pico-systems.com>

On 11/05/2019 12:11 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> it would be good to get it archived.
> I can do it if no one else volunteers
>
>
OK, you're on.  It is a 5.25 " disk in RX50 format, RT-11 
file structure, and bootable on both PDP-11 and uVAX-II.

let me know where to send it.

Jon



From allisonportable at gmail.com  Tue Nov  5 21:24:36 2019
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 22:24:36 -0500
Subject: Andromeda disk controller diag/format disk found
In-Reply-To: <5DC2392E.2080206@pico-systems.com>
References: <5DBDA248.7000307@pico-systems.com>
 <002001d59158$0049e510$00ddaf30$@harlie.org>
 <5DBDA248.7000307@pico-systems.com>
 <3.0.6.32.20191103083947.00e56608@mail.optusnet.com.au>
 <5278C9B6-7D6E-4F03-A28E-3292855F340A@shaw.ca>
 <5DBF799B.1060505@pico-systems.com> <5DC1AD0D.1020701@pico-systems.com>
 <272f5379-8401-b8e3-80b7-a2eec88098ca@bitsavers.org>
 <5DC2392E.2080206@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <b7880112-7b23-0c8d-4fdd-6e6dd910c9e6@gmail.com>

On 11/5/19 10:08 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
> On 11/05/2019 12:11 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
>> it would be good to get it archived.
>> I can do it if no one else volunteers
>>
>>
> OK, you're on.? It is a 5.25 " disk in RX50 format, RT-11 file
> structure, and bootable on both PDP-11 and uVAX-II.

Really?  I'd like to know how that was done as they are not the same.
You mean readable not bootable maybe?

Allison


> let me know where to send it.
> 
> Jon
> 
> 


From useddec at gmail.com  Tue Nov  5 21:40:37 2019
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 21:40:37 -0600
Subject: Looking for DEC RA80 (or RM80, R80) service manual (EK-ORA80-SV
 or similar)
In-Reply-To: <7eb0857d-13d6-6290-8949-cbf3aa3c04c4@ntlworld.com>
References: <CADBZjLYqQ3Va6gPict+qNWDnx9xwJHVBJ=e+Zx1yWFH4_tmQaw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwKGN3SwRBB9XeXTjWr1d6reaDf1AjONqVsTGX55SbUOCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADBZjLa+UB9wGV-Nk-4k5QBBrPWKq58ortE=QzLorvnv+eipBA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e1d5e819-f613-fbaa-d07d-98804d196023@ntlworld.com>
 <CADBZjLbWBnq7kpGY1fR_0kG4i-eMQHW6WPuQwQG0dq7jmf1ktQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuPFNwLJtdS25sS6J1+JkR23uCcyeh9F5nK4AzCJaeX81w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuPnvN3pi__VxyQo0yLksEz_=SZcc4RAZeiqbEv4BUwEtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7eb0857d-13d6-6290-8949-cbf3aa3c04c4@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuNBEnnUUforTG5a2bBnJcr0ASsEB_RvotyYqewLXYQrDg@mail.gmail.com>

My RA81 print set is REV A.

I can ship the RM80 pocket guide for scanning, but want it back. I'm
shipping some other things to a list member, and will see if he will scan
it. It is a copy, about 40 pages. EK-0RM80-001

On Tue, Oct 22, 2019 at 6:08 PM Antonio Carlini via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 22/10/2019 04:38, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote:
> > RA81 Maint Guide AA-M879B-TC
>
> Online
>
>
> > RA80 MG               AA-M186B-TC
>
>
> Online
>
> > RM80 POCKET SERV GUIDE  EK-0RM80-PG-001
>
> Seemingly not online anywhere ...
>
>
> > RA81 Field Maint print set  MP-01359?
>
>
> Rev A is online
>
>
> Antonio
>
>
> --
> Antonio Carlini
> antonio at acarlini.com
>
>

From useddec at gmail.com  Tue Nov  5 21:59:03 2019
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 21:59:03 -0600
Subject: Andromeda disk controller diag/format disk found
In-Reply-To: <5DC1AD0D.1020701@pico-systems.com>
References: <002001d59158$0049e510$00ddaf30$@harlie.org>
 <5DBDA248.7000307@pico-systems.com>
 <3.0.6.32.20191103083947.00e56608@mail.optusnet.com.au>
 <5278C9B6-7D6E-4F03-A28E-3292855F340A@shaw.ca>
 <5DBF799B.1060505@pico-systems.com> <5DC1AD0D.1020701@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuNcWvojXOT7jR+R3ChfyywLUQ-EK8OFdrkkZTk8jRa+aA@mail.gmail.com>

Where hey a blue board or handles? I think I have a few around here.

On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 11:10 AM Jon Elson via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> If anybody has an Andromeda Q-bus MFM hard drive/floppy
> controller, I have dug up the diags/utilities disk for it.
> This will boot from the floppy on an LSI-11 or MicroVAX-II
> and allow you to format drives and run diagnostics.
>
> Anybody need this?  I have no idea if the floppy is still
> readable, although it has been stored in good
> conditions.
>
> Jon
>

From elson at pico-systems.com  Tue Nov  5 22:27:14 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2019 22:27:14 -0600
Subject: Andromeda disk controller diag/format disk found
In-Reply-To: <b7880112-7b23-0c8d-4fdd-6e6dd910c9e6@gmail.com>
References: <5DBDA248.7000307@pico-systems.com>
 <002001d59158$0049e510$00ddaf30$@harlie.org>
 <5DBDA248.7000307@pico-systems.com>
 <3.0.6.32.20191103083947.00e56608@mail.optusnet.com.au>
 <5278C9B6-7D6E-4F03-A28E-3292855F340A@shaw.ca>
 <5DBF799B.1060505@pico-systems.com> <5DC1AD0D.1020701@pico-systems.com>
 <272f5379-8401-b8e3-80b7-a2eec88098ca@bitsavers.org>
 <5DC2392E.2080206@pico-systems.com>
 <b7880112-7b23-0c8d-4fdd-6e6dd910c9e6@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5DC24BA2.6040703@pico-systems.com>

On 11/05/2019 09:24 PM, allison via cctalk wrote:
> On 11/5/19 10:08 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
>> On 11/05/2019 12:11 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
>>> it would be good to get it archived.
>>> I can do it if no one else volunteers
>>>
>>>
>> OK, you're on.  It is a 5.25 " disk in RX50 format, RT-11 file
>> structure, and bootable on both PDP-11 and uVAX-II.
> Really?  I'd like to know how that was done as they are not the same.
> You mean readable not bootable maybe?
>
>
I only did this on the uVAX-II, a LONG time ago, like 
1986-88 or so, when I got rid of the MFM disks.
So, my memory ir really faded.  But, I think there was a 
console procedure where you entered a couple
lines of commands to read in certain blocks from the disk 
and then run from some location, and
it would bring up the diag/utility from the floppy.  I'm 
pretty sure the procedure was in the manual,
which I think I sent to the guy who took the Andromeda 
controller.

Jon


From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  5 22:47:41 2019
From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 23:47:41 -0500
Subject: Modcomp Minicomputers Related - Preservation and Repair
Message-ID: <CAOpB=UNtOWsjALurbTztsx1HZ6M4j7e5yaUWa90zXmYb5uXSyw@mail.gmail.com>

Greeting. Its been a while since I have posted here. A while back I picked
up a large Modcomp classic minicomputer. Recently the person i picked the
computer up off of gave me a call to come and get many books and software,
among much more hardware. I have picked up hundreds of 9 track tapes. The
modcomp computer mainly ran the real time os MAX, however i also found many
tapes for a unix variant for the machine, that supported real time
operation as well.

I am trying to preserve things as best i can, I am set to pick up 3 more
machines, and among the tapes and documentation, Space is running out fast.

I am curious if any of this documentation has been archived already, if
not, i can get to scanning it in my free time. I have documentation on
everything. The hardware, the software, os code, everything.

The tapes are another issue all together. They were stored in probably the
worst possible place, in a area of extreme heat and humidity. Some are
musty, others look like new. I do not own a 9 track drive, i was thinking
it would be possible to get a 9 track drive with a scsi interface attached
to a more modern Linux system to dump the tapes to images. If anyone here
has suggestions on how to read off the tapes or where to find a drive, it
would be most helpful.

As a last resort, I have a 9 track drive that is attached to my pdp 11/34,
however i have not gotten that system into working order yet either, and am
unsure of if the drive is working yet.

I was also given an old emulator for the system,m written for linux. I have
not gotten the software to work yet. I need to be sure the software is not
still a licenced product and that the company is gone before i post it.
Perhaps someone here can find out why its not working. On a modern debian
system, it attempts to run and just exits, without any info as to whats
wrong.

Any help or suggestions on how to best preserve the documentation and
software is most appreciated. I am undecided on what to do with the
hardware yet. The hardware is fascinating, and there is a bunch of it,
however it is quite large and is taking up a large portion of space. The
hope is to at least get one running to test out and see if i decide to keep
a system after that.

--Devin D

From rescue at hawkmountain.net  Tue Nov  5 21:29:03 2019
From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (rescue)
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2019 22:29:03 -0500
Subject: Floppy drive (DSDD) DOS compatability woes (are these drives
 =?UTF-8?Q?ok=3F=29?=
In-Reply-To: <d669208fff4930afa233d8ce3f1972b6@localhost>
References: <d669208fff4930afa233d8ce3f1972b6@localhost>
Message-ID: <3f3a69b740645069487924910b0b9e48@localhost>

On 2019-11-05 13:45, rescue wrote:
> Been away for some time from the mailing lists....  getting back into
> my classic gear again....
>
> I have two of these Qumetrack 542 drives.
>
> While testing my 360K drive collection (8 drives.... I must be
> slacking :-) ...), 2 worked, 4 had issue (resolved with a good head
> cleaning), and 2 (both of the Qumetrack 542 drives (I have two of
> them)) have mixed results.  My testing is on a Tandy 2500SX/33 using
> the Tandy straight through cable and with the drives set do DS0.
>
> I seem to have no issue with Dunfield's testfdc (using testfdc/x a:)
> with these drives, doing SS and DD and getting 'pass' from testfdc.  
> I
> can also use his imagedisk program, go to the alignment section, and 
> I
> can track the drive properly up an down the disk.... it is just DOS
> that can't seem to do it.
>
> However, when I do a format a:, the drive will format through the 40
> tracks, then instead of the heads returning to track 0 quickly, they
> do these small stepping 'bursts' and DOS times out saying 
> failure.....
> it probably would have worked if DOS would wait 10 seconds or more 
> for
> the drive to move to track 0.
>
> I've never seen behavior like this.  I even tried an external power
> supply in case the Tandy one wasn't up to driving the full height
> floppy drive due to an aging marginal supply, but that didn't help
> anything.
>
> I've now also had one of them shut down the power supply (a shorted
> tantalum cap I'm sure).
>
> I've looked through the manual on the drive, I've tried the HM, HS,
> and no jumper setting for stepper motor power, same results in all
> cases.
>
> I'm trying too determine if these drives are good.  I'm planning on
> using them in a Tandy Model III that is upgraded internally to a 
> Model
> IV, but I feel these are basic drives and should work in DOS fine 
> too.
>
> I hope someone has a clue, as I'm tapped out of them currently.

Well, For reference... I figured it out.

Apparently the newer system (Tandy 2500SX/33 (386SX cpu)) has to fast 
of a step time.

I found a program called flopparm.com and teststep.com which are part 
of FPLKIT11.ZIP.

By using:

flopparm custom=10,15,15,8

I was then able to format a disk using DOS format.

I won't be using the drive on this system, and it will be being used 
likely in a TRS-80 Model III, so I'd imagine the older system won't be 
as aggressive on the timings as the 386SX is and it won't be an issue.  
So, both of my drives are confirmed good (well, after I replaced the 
shorted tantalum on one of them).

-- Curt


>
> Thanks,
>
> -- Curt


From rescue at hawkmountain.net  Tue Nov  5 21:34:30 2019
From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (rescue)
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2019 22:34:30 -0500
Subject: TRS-80 Model III stopped responding
In-Reply-To: <f527be44e454ba1176f585d66fe6f172@localhost>
References: <f527be44e454ba1176f585d66fe6f172@localhost>
Message-ID: <2676f73c7d7df740e2c49e7fd334237a@localhost>

On 2019-11-05 13:50, rescue wrote:
> I haven't dug into this one yet, but I did get it booted in trsdos,
> and the letter I on the keyboard wasn't working.
>
> I shut it off, disconnected and removed the keyboard.  I desoldered
> and removed the APLS switch, opened it up, cleaned up the carbon pad
> and the contacts below it, reassembled it, tested it with my DVM, all
> good to go.  I soldered it back into the keyboard, put the keyboard
> back, powered on the system....
>
> I get CRT glow, system reset button will cause the floppy drive to
> seek, but nothing on the screen, and pressing return after inserting
> TRSDOS does not boot the drive (i.e. testing for a working core 
> system
> with no display....).
>
> I do need to test the power supplies and make sure I have not lost a
> power rail on one of the two supplies.  I presume the one I need to
> check is the one on the backside of the cpu board, as the one on the
> side of the drive 'cage' powers the drives and the drive controller
> board, and on power up and reset, the drives are motor on and
> tracking, so I think that supply is at least providing +5/+12V.

Well, it is something with the supplies.  I tried the floppy power 
supply in place of the system one, and got a Cass? prompt !
Then I switched back, and got a Cass? prompt !  GRRRR !   I'm still 
digging.... maybe something failed and if I mount it back up it will 
stop working again (once the ground pads are grounded on the back of the 
supply ?).

I'm still hunting for the issue, it's either intermittent or something 
flaky with the power supply that fails when it is grounded.

Now to go off and find out which.

At least the mainboard didn't go 'poof'.

-- Curt

>
> Seems odd that putting the keyboard back in resulted in a non working
> system.  I unplugged it, same behavior with no keyboard plugged in.  
> I
> did not connect the kb connector off by one pin or one row.... so as
> best as I can tall, Murphy has struck, and it isn't 'operator error'
> :-).
>
> Any tips from Model III experts welcome.
>
> --  Curt


From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com  Wed Nov  6 04:23:28 2019
From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 10:23:28 +0000
Subject: TRS-80 Model III stopped responding
In-Reply-To: <2676f73c7d7df740e2c49e7fd334237a@localhost>
References: <f527be44e454ba1176f585d66fe6f172@localhost>
 <2676f73c7d7df740e2c49e7fd334237a@localhost>
Message-ID: <CAHkUCCwN6XmzN2SqcuBu3BqkboyvKx-VaTegi8oBhHjVeHU=uQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 6, 2019 at 6:00 AM rescue via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Well, it is something with the supplies.  I tried the floppy power
> supply in place of the system one, and got a Cass? prompt !
> Then I switched back, and got a Cass? prompt !  GRRRR !   I'm still
> digging.... maybe something failed and if I mount it back up it will
> stop working again (once the ground pads are grounded on the back of the
> supply ?).

Bad connections somewhere? The stiff ribbon cables between the CPU and
FDC and RS232 boards are notorious for this in my experience. Or at the
Molex connectors on the PSU.

A Model 3 CPU board needs all 3 outputs (+5V, +12V, -12V) from the PSU for
the DRAMs (4116).

-tony

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Wed Nov  6 08:30:44 2019
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 14:30:44 -0000
Subject: Repurposing cable for IBM Model M Keyboard
Message-ID: <045101d594ae$c6a37880$53ea6980$@ntlworld.com>

I need a keyboard cable for my VAXmate. This uses an SDL connector on one
end and RJ11 on the other. Keyboard cables for the IBM Model M have SDL
connectors at one end and a PS/2 connector at the other. I bought one of
these cables with the intention of replacing the PS/2 connector with an
RJ11.

 

However, I now have a pang of conscience about hacking around with a
perfectly good cable, particularly if they are uncommon. How common are
these cables?

 

Regards

 

Rob


From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Nov  6 08:57:31 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 15:57:31 +0100
Subject: Repurposing cable for IBM Model M Keyboard
In-Reply-To: <045101d594ae$c6a37880$53ea6980$@ntlworld.com>
References: <045101d594ae$c6a37880$53ea6980$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGMU353pe7sLPcRuE89MZGm4d2jP5Oe6w2_txHiAWvQ9w@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 at 15:31, Rob Jarratt via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> However, I now have a pang of conscience about hacking around with a
> perfectly good cable, particularly if they are uncommon. How common are
> these cables?

I don't know for sure but I've certainly seen people looking for them.
Not super-common I'd say, and I wouldn't do it myself.

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com  Wed Nov  6 09:50:16 2019
From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 10:50:16 -0500
Subject: Repurposing cable for IBM Model M Keyboard
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCGMU353pe7sLPcRuE89MZGm4d2jP5Oe6w2_txHiAWvQ9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <045101d594ae$c6a37880$53ea6980$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAMTenCGMU353pe7sLPcRuE89MZGm4d2jP5Oe6w2_txHiAWvQ9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ2mpAgpsLWn+e=ANUv9DL=4DxvzWP57NZjBN8OMW7r2dEHXkQ@mail.gmail.com>

Maybe buy a more modern cable and hack that instead?:

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F283062451183

On Wed, Nov 6, 2019, 9:57 AM Liam Proven via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 at 15:31, Rob Jarratt via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > However, I now have a pang of conscience about hacking around with a
> > perfectly good cable, particularly if they are uncommon. How common are
> > these cables?
>
> I don't know for sure but I've certainly seen people looking for them.
> Not super-common I'd say, and I wouldn't do it myself.
>
> --
> Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
> Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
> Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
> UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
>

From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Wed Nov  6 09:56:15 2019
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 15:56:15 +0000 (WET)
Subject: Repurposing cable for IBM Model M Keyboard
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2mpAgpsLWn+e=ANUv9DL=4DxvzWP57NZjBN8OMW7r2dEHXkQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <045101d594ae$c6a37880$53ea6980$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAMTenCGMU353pe7sLPcRuE89MZGm4d2jP5Oe6w2_txHiAWvQ9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01RDHSVLFBL88X1J9U@beyondthepale.ie>

How about making up a PS/2 to RJ adapter?

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

Anders Nelson wrote:
>
> Maybe buy a more modern cable and hack that instead?:
> 
> https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F283062451183
> 
> On Wed, Nov 6, 2019, 9:57 AM Liam Proven via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 at 15:31, Rob Jarratt via cctalk
> > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > However, I now have a pang of conscience about hacking around with a
> > > perfectly good cable, particularly if they are uncommon. How common are
> > > these cables?
> >
> > I don't know for sure but I've certainly seen people looking for them.
> > Not super-common I'd say, and I wouldn't do it myself.
> >
> > --
> > Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
> > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
> > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
> > UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
> >

From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Nov  6 10:26:10 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 17:26:10 +0100
Subject: Repurposing cable for IBM Model M Keyboard
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2mpAgpsLWn+e=ANUv9DL=4DxvzWP57NZjBN8OMW7r2dEHXkQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <045101d594ae$c6a37880$53ea6980$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAMTenCGMU353pe7sLPcRuE89MZGm4d2jP5Oe6w2_txHiAWvQ9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ2mpAgpsLWn+e=ANUv9DL=4DxvzWP57NZjBN8OMW7r2dEHXkQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCED_zadjEr73YVvpaptDW48PPWWHca_Po7wE8wuWZGF_Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 at 16:50, Anders Nelson via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Maybe buy a more modern cable and hack that instead?:
>
> https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F283062451183

That's pretty cool, actually. I have about ? dozen Model Ms and most
of my computers no longer have PS/2 ports.

But for now, PS/2-to-USB adapters are cheaper.

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Wed Nov  6 10:51:19 2019
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 16:51:19 -0000
Subject: Repurposing cable for IBM Model M Keyboard
In-Reply-To: <01RDHSVLFBL88X1J9U@beyondthepale.ie>
References: <045101d594ae$c6a37880$53ea6980$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAMTenCGMU353pe7sLPcRuE89MZGm4d2jP5Oe6w2_txHiAWvQ9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <01RDHSVLFBL88X1J9U@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <045d01d594c2$69f46bd0$3ddd4370$@ntlworld.com>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Peter Coghlan
> via cctalk
> Sent: 06 November 2019 15:56
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Repurposing cable for IBM Model M Keyboard
> 
> How about making up a PS/2 to RJ adapter?
> 

This is my plan if the advice I receive is not to hack the cable.

> Regards,
> Peter Coghlan.
> 


From aek at bitsavers.org  Wed Nov  6 11:06:05 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:06:05 -0800
Subject: Modcomp Minicomputers Related - Preservation and Repair
In-Reply-To: <CAOpB=UNtOWsjALurbTztsx1HZ6M4j7e5yaUWa90zXmYb5uXSyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UNtOWsjALurbTztsx1HZ6M4j7e5yaUWa90zXmYb5uXSyw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9cb48df2-b3f0-9f39-1b6d-a15008d4f655@bitsavers.org>



On 11/5/19 8:47 PM, devin davison via cctalk wrote:

> Any help or suggestions on how to best preserve the documentation and
> software is most appreciated.

I can volunteer to attempt tape recovery, but won't be able to get to it
for a few months.




From aek at bitsavers.org  Wed Nov  6 11:07:20 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:07:20 -0800
Subject: Modcomp Minicomputers Related - Preservation and Repair
In-Reply-To: <9cb48df2-b3f0-9f39-1b6d-a15008d4f655@bitsavers.org>
References: <CAOpB=UNtOWsjALurbTztsx1HZ6M4j7e5yaUWa90zXmYb5uXSyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9cb48df2-b3f0-9f39-1b6d-a15008d4f655@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <b029da8e-5baa-90dc-3f4e-e5bed6598f1e@bitsavers.org>

You should also check with Lyle Bickley about what has already been
archived.

On 11/6/19 9:06 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
> On 11/5/19 8:47 PM, devin davison via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> Any help or suggestions on how to best preserve the documentation and
>> software is most appreciated.
> 
> I can volunteer to attempt tape recovery, but won't be able to get to it
> for a few months.
> 
> 
> 


From lbickley at bickleywest.com  Wed Nov  6 11:16:40 2019
From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:16:40 -0800
Subject: Modcomp Minicomputers Related - Preservation and Repair
In-Reply-To: <b029da8e-5baa-90dc-3f4e-e5bed6598f1e@bitsavers.org>
References: <CAOpB=UNtOWsjALurbTztsx1HZ6M4j7e5yaUWa90zXmYb5uXSyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9cb48df2-b3f0-9f39-1b6d-a15008d4f655@bitsavers.org>
 <b029da8e-5baa-90dc-3f4e-e5bed6598f1e@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <20191106091640.253993e1@asrock>

I have what I believe to be an entire set of Modcomp manuals, sales brochures,
etc. I obtained them from a firm that supported Modcomps at the Kennedy Space
Center in Florida and other firms throughout the world for years. They have all
been scanned into PDF's.

I recently asked them for permission to make the manuals available online -
and they (ultimately) agreed.

Al and I can workout how best to make them available.

Best,
Lyle
--
On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:07:20 -0800
Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> You should also check with Lyle Bickley about what has already been
> archived.
> 
> On 11/6/19 9:06 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > On 11/5/19 8:47 PM, devin davison via cctalk wrote:
> >   
> >> Any help or suggestions on how to best preserve the documentation and
> >> software is most appreciated.  
> > 
> > I can volunteer to attempt tape recovery, but won't be able to get to it
> > for a few months.
> > 
> > 
> >   
> 



-- 
73   NM6Y
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
https://bickleywest.com

"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"

From sales at elecplus.com  Wed Nov  6 11:31:13 2019
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 11:31:13 -0600
Subject: Repurposing cable for IBM Model M Keyboard
In-Reply-To: <045101d594ae$c6a37880$53ea6980$@ntlworld.com>
References: <045101d594ae$c6a37880$53ea6980$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <002901d594c7$fd2d12d0$f7873870$@com>

The cables are not very common. You could possibly keep the cable intact if
you bought a $10 adapter from vecmar.com. Just put Adds keyboard adapter in
the search box.

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt
via cctalk
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2019 8:31 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Repurposing cable for IBM Model M Keyboard

I need a keyboard cable for my VAXmate. This uses an SDL connector on one
end and RJ11 on the other. Keyboard cables for the IBM Model M have SDL
connectors at one end and a PS/2 connector at the other. I bought one of
these cables with the intention of replacing the PS/2 connector with an
RJ11.

 

However, I now have a pang of conscience about hacking around with a
perfectly good cable, particularly if they are uncommon. How common are
these cables?

 

Regards

 

Rob


-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


From ethan at 757.org  Wed Nov  6 12:27:37 2019
From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 13:27:37 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Looking for older Motorola pagers (UHF, POCSAG)
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1911061325160.23042@users.757.org>


Anyone have any pointers to places to buy quantity of UHF Motorola pagers?

Also wouldn't mind a VHF Advisor or two (the original large one with 
holsters.)

Mainly looking for UHF non-FLEX ones.

Thanks

--
: Ethan O'Toole



From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Wed Nov  6 12:30:26 2019
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 18:30:26 -0000
Subject: Repurposing cable for IBM Model M Keyboard
In-Reply-To: <002901d594c7$fd2d12d0$f7873870$@com>
References: <045101d594ae$c6a37880$53ea6980$@ntlworld.com>
 <002901d594c7$fd2d12d0$f7873870$@com>
Message-ID: <046001d594d0$4302c0e0$c90842a0$@ntlworld.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Electronics Plus <sales at elecplus.com>
> Sent: 06 November 2019 17:31
> To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; 'Rob Jarratt' <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>;
'General
> Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: RE: Repurposing cable for IBM Model M Keyboard
> 
> The cables are not very common. You could possibly keep the cable intact
if
> you bought a $10 adapter from vecmar.com. Just put Adds keyboard adapter
> in the search box.
> 

Thanks for the tip!

I am in the UK though, so not sure if they would ship. Also I don't know if
the cable pinout will be correct, so I might need to hack the adapter
anyway, but at that price if I can get one in the UK it would be worth a
try.

Regards

Rob


From sales at elecplus.com  Wed Nov  6 12:43:39 2019
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 12:43:39 -0600
Subject: Links to archived software, pinouts for keyboards, etc.
Message-ID: <002d01d594d2$1b928d90$52b7a8b0$@com>


First up is a text page that describes how to use the same keyboard with
different layouts, or different keyboards with one layout, regardless of the
caps and intended layout. Written for Emacs, maybe?
<http://web.mit.edu/babel/doc/mule/keyboard-translation.text>
http://web.mit.edu/babel/doc/mule/keybo ... ation.text

 

ADB pinouts and documentation  <http://www.interfacebus.com/ADB_Pinout.html>
http://www.interfacebus.com/ADB_Pinout.html
PS/2 pinout and documentation
<http://www.interfacebus.com/Keyboard_Pinout.html>
http://www.interfacebus.com/Keyboard_Pinout.html
Pinouts for just about everything (except terminal keyboards)
<https://allpinouts.org/pinouts/connectors/>
https://allpinouts.org/pinouts/connectors/
Still more pinouts, including Mac, serial, and some others
<http://www.networktechinc.com/technote.html>
http://www.networktechinc.com/technote.html
Sun and SGI keyboards  <http://teryx.bobdbob.com/~protius/pinouts/#console>
http://teryx.bobdbob.com/~protius/pinouts/#console

 

Dig around in this one for all kinds of old software and hardware help
<https://www.oldergeeks.com/downloads/index.php>
https://www.oldergeeks.com/downloads/index.php

 

 <http://www.sunhelp.org/faq/sunref5.html>
http://www.sunhelp.org/faq/sunref5.html Sun keyboards, mice, HDD, etc.
Includes pinouts for the keyboards.

 

This is a link to a very large archive of old PC related software.
 <http://www.retroarchive.org/> http://www.retroarchive.org

 

Cindy Croxton

Electronics Plus

1613 Water Street

Kerrville, TX 78028

830-370-3239 cell

sales at elecplus.com

 



-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

From sales at elecplus.com  Wed Nov  6 13:56:21 2019
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 13:56:21 -0600
Subject: Repurposing cable for IBM Model M Keyboard
In-Reply-To: <045101d594ae$c6a37880$53ea6980$@ntlworld.com>
References: <045101d594ae$c6a37880$53ea6980$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <004301d594dc$43bbba30$cb332e90$@com>


The keyboard end of the cord has an RJ12 (6p6c) connector with six pins, and
looking at the plug with the key up, and pin 1 on the left, pin 2 is Data,
pin 3 is Clock, pin 4 is +5v, and pin 5 is ground.

Found on https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=82503.0

I tried to access the site listed, and it no longer connects, so I called
the guy. He took it down about 2 years ago because too many people tried to
hack the site.

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt
via cctalk
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2019 8:31 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Repurposing cable for IBM Model M Keyboard

I need a keyboard cable for my VAXmate. This uses an SDL connector on one
end and RJ11 on the other. Keyboard cables for the IBM Model M have SDL
connectors at one end and a PS/2 connector at the other. I bought one of
these cables with the intention of replacing the PS/2 connector with an
RJ11.

 

However, I now have a pang of conscience about hacking around with a
perfectly good cable, particularly if they are uncommon. How common are
these cables?

 

Regards

 

Rob


-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


From sales at elecplus.com  Wed Nov  6 13:59:26 2019
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 13:59:26 -0600
Subject: A plethora of DEC manuals
Message-ID: <004401d594dc$b1883f70$1498be50$@com>

https://www.manualslib.com/brand/dec/

 

 

Cindy Croxton

Electronics Plus

1613 Water Street

Kerrville, TX 78028

830-370-3239 cell

sales at elecplus.com

 



-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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From rdawson16 at hotmail.com  Wed Nov  6 15:08:36 2019
From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 21:08:36 +0000
Subject: Looking for older Motorola pagers (UHF, POCSAG)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1911061325160.23042@users.757.org>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1911061325160.23042@users.757.org>
Message-ID: <MWHPR06MB2591E4D298BDD1B0A944D71DBA790@MWHPR06MB2591.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

I do not have the pagers themselves, but 2 large boxes of NEW Motorola RF components.
ICs, RF transistors, etc.

________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Ethan O'Toole via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 6, 2019 10:27 AM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Looking for older Motorola pagers (UHF, POCSAG)


Anyone have any pointers to places to buy quantity of UHF Motorola pagers?

Also wouldn't mind a VHF Advisor or two (the original large one with
holsters.)

Mainly looking for UHF non-FLEX ones.

Thanks

--
: Ethan O'Toole



From david at thecoolbears.org  Wed Nov  6 12:16:19 2019
From: david at thecoolbears.org (David Coolbear)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 10:16:19 -0800
Subject: VAX & PDP-11 Stuff To Clean Out
Message-ID: <CAD=r4TC5VUrA8eGe47A=2KVUq6+nYZWD8_z0bm_f4d9waCCqAA@mail.gmail.com>

I have the following 5-1/4" Drives that I would like to get rid of. These
have all been working at one time or another, but I have no idea what
condition they are in now.


Maxtor EXT 4330
Seagate ST4766N
Hitachi DK516-12
Maxtor XT-8760E
Maxtor XT-4170E

I also have the following QBUS cards to part with.

Module Number Part# Description Form
QBUS Extender D
M7504 DEQNA Ethernet D
M8043 DLV11 4xSLU D
M8043 DLV11 4xSLU D
M7941 DRV11 16 Bit Parallel D
M8186 KDF11 11/23 CPU D
M8186 KDF11 11/23 CPU D
M8189 KDJ11 11/73 CPU D
M8192-YB KDJ11 11/73 CPU D
M8192-YB KDJ11 11/73 CPU D
M8047 MXV11 ROM/RAM D
M7555 RQDX3 D
M8029 RXV21 RX02 Controller D
M7646 TQK50 Tape Controller D
M8044-DB Memory 16K 32K? D
M8044-DE Memory 16K 32K? D
DATARAM 63010 Q
Camington CMX1651 Memory Q
M7606-AF KA630 CPU Q
M7620-AA KA650 CPU Q
M7620-BA KA650 CPU Q
M7164 KDA50 SDI Controller Q
M7165 KDA50 SDI Controller Q
M5976-AA KZQSA SCSI Controller Q
M5976-AA KZQSA SCSI Controller Q
M8067 Memory Q
M7168 VCB02 Bit Map Q
M7169 VCB02 Controller Q
M7608-BP MS630BB 4-Meg Memory Q
M7608-BP MS630BB 4-Meg Memory Q
M7957 4xSLU Q
SCD-RQD11/EC ESDI Controller Q


All of these are FTAGH, but I wouldn't turn down a trade either. I'd be
interested in drive sleds for my BA123 or a spare power supply, also for
the BA123 or I'm always interested in M68K/M6809 stuff. I would prefer
local pickup near Livermore, CA. I don't believe that the drives are
shippable.

Please contact me directly at <david at thecoolbears.org>

From rescue at hawkmountain.net  Wed Nov  6 12:29:33 2019
From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (rescue)
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 13:29:33 -0500
Subject: Looking for TEAC FD-55BV parts
Message-ID: <b719ed387ccf6ebb0b9538a1528d7825@localhost>


Need a faceplate and the eject control shaft (it is sheared off (the 
way I aquired it)) (I do have the eject lever)....

I thought I had some floppy drive parts kicking around, but if I do, I 
can't find them (and chances are I don't have parts for that specific 
drive).

Anyone have a dead drive, or parts from one kicking around ?

Thanks,

-- Curt


From RichA at livingcomputers.org  Wed Nov  6 14:23:21 2019
From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 20:23:21 +0000
Subject: getting your data from yahoo
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.1911020846230.27519@shell3.ripco.com>
References: <16a8aa5e-2afa-fde2-1367-3ef74d55a845@bitsavers.org>
 <2a1b01d59090$e23e4600$a6bad200$@gmail.com>
 <02ceff7263384a7a895076a0ff62610f@livingcomputers.org>
 <Pine.GSO.4.64.1911020846230.27519@shell3.ripco.com>
Message-ID: <4d82e0c2c8a74c918246803b1ac3bcee@livingcomputers.org>

From: Richard Schauer
Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2019 7:08 AM

On Sat, 2 Nov 2019, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote:

>> What tool do I use to look at the contents of this verschlagener file?

> I also asked for and got one of these files.  Mine took something like 30 
> hours, and gave me a 584 MB .zip file.  I tried it using a Windows 10 
> machine, and it consists of directories, each with the name of a group I'm 
> subscribed to.

Thanks, Richard!  That was sufficient hint.

I simply renamed the downloaded file with a .zip extension, and Windows 7 gave
it a compressed folder icon and opened it right up on a double click.

                                                                Rich


Rich Alderson
Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computers: Museum + Labs
2245 1st Ave S
Seattle, WA 98134


http://www.LivingComputers.org/



From nw.johnson at ieee.org  Wed Nov  6 15:20:54 2019
From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 16:20:54 -0500
Subject: VAX & PDP-11 Stuff To Clean Out
In-Reply-To: <CAD=r4TC5VUrA8eGe47A=2KVUq6+nYZWD8_z0bm_f4d9waCCqAA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD=r4TC5VUrA8eGe47A=2KVUq6+nYZWD8_z0bm_f4d9waCCqAA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <311e45d4-d278-83e1-8bc5-8655929c7b18@ieee.org>

Are you sure you won't ship the Maxtor ESDI drves?? I have a microvax 2 
here just crying out for them. Unfortunately CA is a five day drive away 
for me!

Nigel ve3id


On 06/11/2019 13:16, David Coolbear via cctech wrote:
> I have the following 5-1/4" Drives that I would like to get rid of. These
> have all been working at one time or another, but I have no idea what
> condition they are in now.
>
>
> Maxtor EXT 4330
> Seagate ST4766N
> Hitachi DK516-12
> Maxtor XT-8760E
> Maxtor XT-4170E
>
> I also have the following QBUS cards to part with.
>
> Module Number Part# Description Form
> QBUS Extender D
> M7504 DEQNA Ethernet D
> M8043 DLV11 4xSLU D
> M8043 DLV11 4xSLU D
> M7941 DRV11 16 Bit Parallel D
> M8186 KDF11 11/23 CPU D
> M8186 KDF11 11/23 CPU D
> M8189 KDJ11 11/73 CPU D
> M8192-YB KDJ11 11/73 CPU D
> M8192-YB KDJ11 11/73 CPU D
> M8047 MXV11 ROM/RAM D
> M7555 RQDX3 D
> M8029 RXV21 RX02 Controller D
> M7646 TQK50 Tape Controller D
> M8044-DB Memory 16K 32K? D
> M8044-DE Memory 16K 32K? D
> DATARAM 63010 Q
> Camington CMX1651 Memory Q
> M7606-AF KA630 CPU Q
> M7620-AA KA650 CPU Q
> M7620-BA KA650 CPU Q
> M7164 KDA50 SDI Controller Q
> M7165 KDA50 SDI Controller Q
> M5976-AA KZQSA SCSI Controller Q
> M5976-AA KZQSA SCSI Controller Q
> M8067 Memory Q
> M7168 VCB02 Bit Map Q
> M7169 VCB02 Controller Q
> M7608-BP MS630BB 4-Meg Memory Q
> M7608-BP MS630BB 4-Meg Memory Q
> M7957 4xSLU Q
> SCD-RQD11/EC ESDI Controller Q
>
>
> All of these are FTAGH, but I wouldn't turn down a trade either. I'd be
> interested in drive sleds for my BA123 or a spare power supply, also for
> the BA123 or I'm always interested in M68K/M6809 stuff. I would prefer
> local pickup near Livermore, CA. I don't believe that the drives are
> shippable.
>
> Please contact me directly at <david at thecoolbears.org>

  

-- 
Nigel Johnson
MSc., MIEEE
VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU

Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!


You can reach me by voice on Skype:  TILBURY2591

If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday

This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way.
    Nigel Johnson <nw.johnson at ieee.org>

     
Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message




From nw.johnson at ieee.org  Wed Nov  6 15:41:44 2019
From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 16:41:44 -0500
Subject: VAX & PDP-11 Stuff To Clean Out
In-Reply-To: <CAD=r4TC5VUrA8eGe47A=2KVUq6+nYZWD8_z0bm_f4d9waCCqAA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD=r4TC5VUrA8eGe47A=2KVUq6+nYZWD8_z0bm_f4d9waCCqAA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fe2f74f9-e00d-5ea8-9c99-b3244c0ef6b6@ieee.org>

Are you sure you won't ship the Maxtor ESDI drves?? I have a microvax 2 
here just crying out for them. Unfortunately CA is a five day drive away 
for me!

Nigel ve3id


On 06/11/2019 13:16, David Coolbear via cctech wrote:
> I have the following 5-1/4" Drives that I would like to get rid of. These
> have all been working at one time or another, but I have no idea what
> condition they are in now.
>
>
> Maxtor EXT 4330
> Seagate ST4766N
> Hitachi DK516-12
> Maxtor XT-8760E
> Maxtor XT-4170E
>
> I also have the following QBUS cards to part with.
>
> Module Number Part# Description Form
> QBUS Extender D
> M7504 DEQNA Ethernet D
> M8043 DLV11 4xSLU D
> M8043 DLV11 4xSLU D
> M7941 DRV11 16 Bit Parallel D
> M8186 KDF11 11/23 CPU D
> M8186 KDF11 11/23 CPU D
> M8189 KDJ11 11/73 CPU D
> M8192-YB KDJ11 11/73 CPU D
> M8192-YB KDJ11 11/73 CPU D
> M8047 MXV11 ROM/RAM D
> M7555 RQDX3 D
> M8029 RXV21 RX02 Controller D
> M7646 TQK50 Tape Controller D
> M8044-DB Memory 16K 32K? D
> M8044-DE Memory 16K 32K? D
> DATARAM 63010 Q
> Camington CMX1651 Memory Q
> M7606-AF KA630 CPU Q
> M7620-AA KA650 CPU Q
> M7620-BA KA650 CPU Q
> M7164 KDA50 SDI Controller Q
> M7165 KDA50 SDI Controller Q
> M5976-AA KZQSA SCSI Controller Q
> M5976-AA KZQSA SCSI Controller Q
> M8067 Memory Q
> M7168 VCB02 Bit Map Q
> M7169 VCB02 Controller Q
> M7608-BP MS630BB 4-Meg Memory Q
> M7608-BP MS630BB 4-Meg Memory Q
> M7957 4xSLU Q
> SCD-RQD11/EC ESDI Controller Q
>
>
> All of these are FTAGH, but I wouldn't turn down a trade either. I'd be
> interested in drive sleds for my BA123 or a spare power supply, also for
> the BA123 or I'm always interested in M68K/M6809 stuff. I would prefer
> local pickup near Livermore, CA. I don't believe that the drives are
> shippable.
>
> Please contact me directly at <david at thecoolbears.org>


-- 
Nigel Johnson
MSc., MIEEE
VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU

Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!


You can reach me by voice on Skype:  TILBURY2591

If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday

This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way.
    Nigel Johnson <nw.johnson at ieee.org>

     Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message




From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net  Wed Nov  6 16:15:01 2019
From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 17:15:01 -0500
Subject: swtpc.com expired???
Message-ID: <0c8f01d594ef$a2b20d10$e8162730$@verizon.net>

Domain has been down for 7 days now.  No reply to emails.  Does anyone know
anything?

-----Original Message-----
From: William Sudbrink [mailto:wh.sudbrink at verizon.net] 
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2019 12:29 PM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
Subject: swtpc.com expired???

Anybody know if Mike Holley is OK?

Bill S.



-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


From billdegnan at gmail.com  Wed Nov  6 16:19:44 2019
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 17:19:44 -0500
Subject: swtpc.com expired???
In-Reply-To: <0c8f01d594ef$a2b20d10$e8162730$@verizon.net>
References: <0c8f01d594ef$a2b20d10$e8162730$.ref@verizon.net>
 <0c8f01d594ef$a2b20d10$e8162730$@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <CABGJBuc6EXgA-+D3NyV3PyHA62116p7YRoq1uHbhBO+p=DHDWg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 6, 2019, 5:15 PM William Sudbrink via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Domain has been down for 7 days now.  No reply to emails.  Does anyone know
> anything?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: William Sudbrink [mailto:wh.sudbrink at verizon.net]
> Sent: Monday, November 04, 2019 12:29 PM
> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
> Subject: swtpc.com expired???
>
> Anybody know if Mike Holley is OK?
>
> Bill S.
>
>
>
> --
>

Anyone can pay a domain reg bill I think, 20 bucks or so, if someone wants
to.
B

>
>

From lbickley at bickleywest.com  Wed Nov  6 16:42:31 2019
From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 14:42:31 -0800
Subject: swtpc.com expired???
In-Reply-To: <0c8f01d594ef$a2b20d10$e8162730$@verizon.net>
References: <0c8f01d594ef$a2b20d10$e8162730$.ref@verizon.net>
 <0c8f01d594ef$a2b20d10$e8162730$@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <20191106144231.486dfbb5@asrock>

On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 17:15:01 -0500
William Sudbrink via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Domain has been down for 7 days now.  No reply to emails.  Does anyone know
> anything?

I looked it up and got this from "GoDaddy":

---
NOTICE: This domain name expired on 10/30/2019 and is pending renewal or
deletion.
---

Best,
Lyle

--
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: William Sudbrink [mailto:wh.sudbrink at verizon.net] 
> Sent: Monday, November 04, 2019 12:29 PM
> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
> Subject: swtpc.com expired???
> 
> Anybody know if Mike Holley is OK?
> 
> Bill S.
> 
> 
> 



-- 
73   NM6Y
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
https://bickleywest.com

"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"

From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net  Wed Nov  6 16:52:39 2019
From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 17:52:39 -0500
Subject: swtpc.com expired???
In-Reply-To: <19C6F084-270E-48EF-A8BF-241276EDF5E8@128.ca>
References: <0c8f01d594ef$a2b20d10$e8162730$.ref@verizon.net>,
 <0c8f01d594ef$a2b20d10$e8162730$@verizon.net>
 <19C6F084-270E-48EF-A8BF-241276EDF5E8@128.ca>
Message-ID: <0c9601d594f4$e45e8b30$ad1ba190$@verizon.net>

Yes, GoDaddy renewed the registration so that they could sell it to someone else if it is not renewed.  I more concerned about Mike.  Has anyone heard from him?

-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Lee [mailto:821 at 128.ca] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2019 5:44 PM
To: William Sudbrink; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: swtpc.com expired???

Current reg says will expire in 2020 
So has been renewed.  

Sent from my iPhone

> On 7 Nov 2019, at 06:15, William Sudbrink via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> ?Domain has been down for 7 days now.  No reply to emails.  Does anyone know
> anything?
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: William Sudbrink [mailto:wh.sudbrink at verizon.net] 
> Sent: Monday, November 04, 2019 12:29 PM
> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
> Subject: swtpc.com expired???
> 
> Anybody know if Mike Holley is OK?
> 
> Bill S.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> 


From echristopherson at gmail.com  Wed Nov  6 17:12:00 2019
From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 17:12:00 -0600
Subject: A plethora of DEC manuals
In-Reply-To: <004401d594dc$b1883f70$1498be50$@com>
References: <004401d594dc$b1883f70$1498be50$@com>
Message-ID: <CADyB93CFPn3Sxk9xfAN3NOab5JQQJtzcmk9f2zfS0XOCWxv2CA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 6, 2019 at 1:59 PM Electronics Plus via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> https://www.manualslib.com/brand/dec/


Ah yes, the good old DEC DesignJet.

-- 
        Eric Christopherson

From guykd at optusnet.com.au  Wed Nov  6 17:14:21 2019
From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy)
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 10:14:21 +1100
Subject: swtpc.com expired???
In-Reply-To: <20191106144231.486dfbb5@asrock>
References: <0c8f01d594ef$a2b20d10$e8162730$@verizon.net>
 <0c8f01d594ef$a2b20d10$e8162730$.ref@verizon.net>
 <0c8f01d594ef$a2b20d10$e8162730$@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20191107101421.0105dda8@mail.optusnet.com.au>


For others like me, who are newcomers to this group:

   http://web.archive.org/web/20190616094729/http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/index.html

I hope he's just having a nice fishing holiday or ocean cruise or something.
That's the trouble with circles of 'net friends.' Without fallback physical contact lines,
people (and their personal websites) can just disappear without anyone being able to find
out what happened.

Hopefully not premature: 
Wills should include notes on where to make announcements. Mail lists, social media, etc.
And where and how to offer personal collections. Never leave this up to relatives, who
usually dgaf about technological relics and have highly random ideas about preservation worth.

Guy


At 02:42 PM 6/11/2019 -0800, you wrote:
>On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 17:15:01 -0500
>William Sudbrink via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> Domain has been down for 7 days now.  No reply to emails.  Does anyone know
>> anything?
>
>I looked it up and got this from "GoDaddy":
>
>---
>NOTICE: This domain name expired on 10/30/2019 and is pending renewal or
>deletion.
>---
>
>Best,
>Lyle
>
>--
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: William Sudbrink [mailto:wh.sudbrink at verizon.net] 
>> Sent: Monday, November 04, 2019 12:29 PM
>> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
>> Subject: swtpc.com expired???
>> 
>> Anybody know if Mike Holley is OK?
>> 
>> Bill S.


From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net  Wed Nov  6 17:28:53 2019
From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 18:28:53 -0500
Subject: swtpc.com expired???
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20191107101421.0105dda8@mail.optusnet.com.au>
References: <0c8f01d594ef$a2b20d10$e8162730$@verizon.net>
 <0c8f01d594ef$a2b20d10$e8162730$.ref@verizon.net>
 <0c8f01d594ef$a2b20d10$e8162730$@verizon.net>
 <3.0.6.32.20191107101421.0105dda8@mail.optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <0c9c01d594f9$f43577d0$dca06770$@verizon.net>

Well, more than just "web friends".  Michael Holley was a member of the Home
Brew Computer Club and a pioneer of 6800/6809 based computers.

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy Dunphy
via cctalk
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2019 6:14 PM
To: Lyle Bickley; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: swtpc.com expired???


For others like me, who are newcomers to this group:

 
http://web.archive.org/web/20190616094729/http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/index
.html

I hope he's just having a nice fishing holiday or ocean cruise or something.
That's the trouble with circles of 'net friends.' Without fallback physical
contact lines,
people (and their personal websites) can just disappear without anyone being
able to find
out what happened.

Hopefully not premature: 
Wills should include notes on where to make announcements. Mail lists,
social media, etc.
And where and how to offer personal collections. Never leave this up to
relatives, who
usually dgaf about technological relics and have highly random ideas about
preservation worth.

Guy


At 02:42 PM 6/11/2019 -0800, you wrote:
>On Wed, 6 Nov 2019 17:15:01 -0500
>William Sudbrink via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> Domain has been down for 7 days now.  No reply to emails.  Does anyone
know
>> anything?
>
>I looked it up and got this from "GoDaddy":
>
>---
>NOTICE: This domain name expired on 10/30/2019 and is pending renewal or
>deletion.
>---
>
>Best,
>Lyle
>
>--
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: William Sudbrink [mailto:wh.sudbrink at verizon.net] 
>> Sent: Monday, November 04, 2019 12:29 PM
>> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
>> Subject: swtpc.com expired???
>> 
>> Anybody know if Mike Holley is OK?
>> 
>> Bill S.


-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


From mechanic_2 at charter.net  Wed Nov  6 21:23:58 2019
From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope)
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 21:23:58 -0600
Subject: OT: A spring trip!
In-Reply-To: <4d82e0c2c8a74c918246803b1ac3bcee@livingcomputers.org>
References: <16a8aa5e-2afa-fde2-1367-3ef74d55a845@bitsavers.org>
 <2a1b01d59090$e23e4600$a6bad200$@gmail.com>
 <02ceff7263384a7a895076a0ff62610f@livingcomputers.org>
 <Pine.GSO.4.64.1911020846230.27519@shell3.ripco.com>
 <4d82e0c2c8a74c918246803b1ac3bcee@livingcomputers.org>
Message-ID: <5DC38E4E.5020602@charter.net>

Hello all,
     I am looking for someone in the Reedsburg, WI area that would like 
to take a road trip out West come this spring. Say sometime in late May 
or early June. If you are interested please let me know. Non-smoker only.
GOD Bless and Thanks,

Richard R. Pope
1230 19th Street #5
Reedsburg, WI 53959, USA
1-608-768-7448
mechanic_2 at charter.net

From mechanic_2 at charter.net  Wed Nov  6 21:58:07 2019
From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope)
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 21:58:07 -0600
Subject: OT: A spring trip!
In-Reply-To: <5DC38E4E.5020602@charter.net>
References: <16a8aa5e-2afa-fde2-1367-3ef74d55a845@bitsavers.org>
 <2a1b01d59090$e23e4600$a6bad200$@gmail.com>
 <02ceff7263384a7a895076a0ff62610f@livingcomputers.org>
 <Pine.GSO.4.64.1911020846230.27519@shell3.ripco.com>
 <4d82e0c2c8a74c918246803b1ac3bcee@livingcomputers.org>
 <5DC38E4E.5020602@charter.net>
Message-ID: <5DC3964F.4030009@charter.net>

Hello all,
     BTW: Reedsburg area includes Chicago, Milwaukee, Madison, 
Minneapolis, Dubuque, or any other towns or cities within 300 miles.
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!

On 11/6/2019 9:23 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote:
> Hello all,
>     I am looking for someone in the Reedsburg, WI area that would like 
> to take a road trip out West come this spring. Say sometime in late 
> May or early June. If you are interested please let me know. 
> Non-smoker only.
> GOD Bless and Thanks,
>
> Richard R. Pope
> 1230 19th Street #5
> Reedsburg, WI 53959, USA
> 1-608-768-7448
> mechanic_2 at charter.net
>


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Wed Nov  6 16:08:25 2019
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 17:08:25 -0500
Subject: VAX & PDP-11 Stuff To Clean Out
In-Reply-To: <311e45d4-d278-83e1-8bc5-8655929c7b18@ieee.org>
References: <CAD=r4TC5VUrA8eGe47A=2KVUq6+nYZWD8_z0bm_f4d9waCCqAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <311e45d4-d278-83e1-8bc5-8655929c7b18@ieee.org>
Message-ID: <9DC037E9-B055-430F-9F38-9D5FED0D1C86@comcast.net>



> On Nov 6, 2019, at 4:20 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Are you sure you won't ship the Maxtor ESDI drves?  I have a microvax 2 here just crying out for them. Unfortunately CA is a five day drive away for me!
> 
> Nigel ve3id

Drives are definitely shippable, and small drives like 5.25 inch ones shouldn't be a big deal.  Traditional shipping involves a sturdy box with a couple of inches of foam inside holding the drive.  

Avoid loose fill like "foam peanuts".  I once received an RP06 pack that came in a large box full of foam peanuts, but the pack had settled in the bottom corner and was dented on that side.  

	paul


From dougatdoughq at gmail.com  Wed Nov  6 16:30:34 2019
From: dougatdoughq at gmail.com (Doug Jackson)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 09:30:34 +1100
Subject: swtpc.com expired???
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBuc6EXgA-+D3NyV3PyHA62116p7YRoq1uHbhBO+p=DHDWg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <0c8f01d594ef$a2b20d10$e8162730$.ref@verizon.net>
 <0c8f01d594ef$a2b20d10$e8162730$@verizon.net>
 <CABGJBuc6EXgA-+D3NyV3PyHA62116p7YRoq1uHbhBO+p=DHDWg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM_9E604VBnD5ayOF7VEMvBPHWT43_MDjpoYFCCf_h0ZQs73=g@mail.gmail.com>

It looks like it's the hosting bill as well.  That's not a simple expired
domain page.

On Thu, 7 Nov. 2019, 9:20 am Bill Degnan via cctalk, <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 6, 2019, 5:15 PM William Sudbrink via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > Domain has been down for 7 days now.  No reply to emails.  Does anyone
> know
> > anything?
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: William Sudbrink [mailto:wh.sudbrink at verizon.net]
> > Sent: Monday, November 04, 2019 12:29 PM
> > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
> > Subject: swtpc.com expired???
> >
> > Anybody know if Mike Holley is OK?
> >
> > Bill S.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
>
> Anyone can pay a domain reg bill I think, 20 bucks or so, if someone wants
> to.
> B
>
> >
> >
>

From 821 at 128.ca  Wed Nov  6 16:43:50 2019
From: 821 at 128.ca (Kevin Lee)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 22:43:50 +0000
Subject: swtpc.com expired???
In-Reply-To: <0c8f01d594ef$a2b20d10$e8162730$@verizon.net>
References: <0c8f01d594ef$a2b20d10$e8162730$.ref@verizon.net>,
 <0c8f01d594ef$a2b20d10$e8162730$@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <19C6F084-270E-48EF-A8BF-241276EDF5E8@128.ca>

Current reg says will expire in 2020 
So has been renewed.  

Sent from my iPhone

> On 7 Nov 2019, at 06:15, William Sudbrink via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> ?Domain has been down for 7 days now.  No reply to emails.  Does anyone know
> anything?
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: William Sudbrink [mailto:wh.sudbrink at verizon.net] 
> Sent: Monday, November 04, 2019 12:29 PM
> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
> Subject: swtpc.com expired???
> 
> Anybody know if Mike Holley is OK?
> 
> Bill S.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> 

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Thu Nov  7 05:21:01 2019
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 06:21:01 -0500
Subject: swtpc.com expired???
In-Reply-To: <19C6F084-270E-48EF-A8BF-241276EDF5E8@128.ca>
References: <0c8f01d594ef$a2b20d10$e8162730$.ref@verizon.net>
 <0c8f01d594ef$a2b20d10$e8162730$@verizon.net>
 <19C6F084-270E-48EF-A8BF-241276EDF5E8@128.ca>
Message-ID: <CABGJBueL0JyXAi2E9aNL17H37DuMf_eJ-9Cf0-Reo9frcNGYog@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 7, 2019, 12:59 AM Kevin Lee via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> Current reg says will expire in 2020
> So has been renewed.
>

This morning godaddy says still expired, pending renewal.

Bill

>

From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com  Thu Nov  7 05:31:04 2019
From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 09:31:04 -0200
Subject: swtpc.com expired???
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBueL0JyXAi2E9aNL17H37DuMf_eJ-9Cf0-Reo9frcNGYog@mail.gmail.com>
References: <0c8f01d594ef$a2b20d10$e8162730$.ref@verizon.net>
 <0c8f01d594ef$a2b20d10$e8162730$@verizon.net>
 <19C6F084-270E-48EF-A8BF-241276EDF5E8@128.ca>
 <CABGJBueL0JyXAi2E9aNL17H37DuMf_eJ-9Cf0-Reo9frcNGYog@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANdZFKS-5DT=72bWnf5eVGAbzF9J_7BVkyy487xKLik2tU56WA@mail.gmail.com>

Last IP address of the server (71.91.242.107) also directs to a "it works"
page, so the entire directory may have been deleted. I also tried to access
subpages (like /Sinclair/Interface2/Interface/Interface2_Circuitry.htm) and
got a 404.

Seems everything is gone. Hope the archive.org backup is updated :(

---8<---Corte aqui---8<---
http://www.tabajara-labs.blogspot.com
http://www.tabalabs.com.br
---8<---Corte aqui---8<---


Em qui, 7 de nov de 2019 ?s 09:21, Bill Degnan via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> escreveu:

> On Thu, Nov 7, 2019, 12:59 AM Kevin Lee via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
> > Current reg says will expire in 2020
> > So has been renewed.
> >
>
> This morning godaddy says still expired, pending renewal.
>
> Bill
>
> >
>

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Thu Nov  7 05:54:27 2019
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 06:54:27 -0500
Subject: swtpc.com expired???
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBueL0JyXAi2E9aNL17H37DuMf_eJ-9Cf0-Reo9frcNGYog@mail.gmail.com>
References: <0c8f01d594ef$a2b20d10$e8162730$.ref@verizon.net>
 <0c8f01d594ef$a2b20d10$e8162730$@verizon.net>
 <19C6F084-270E-48EF-A8BF-241276EDF5E8@128.ca>
 <CABGJBueL0JyXAi2E9aNL17H37DuMf_eJ-9Cf0-Reo9frcNGYog@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBucLrCJEReffjGOH1gpmp0xn05992kAkZgw6T548GPybKA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 7, 2019, 6:21 AM Bill Degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 7, 2019, 12:59 AM Kevin Lee via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Current reg says will expire in 2020
>> So has been renewed.
>>
>
> This morning godaddy says still expired, pending renewal.
>
> Bill
>

I was mistaken...as was said, yes the domain is paid for but apparently the
web hosting account that godaddy is configured to point to is disconnected
from dns.  I.e. someone logged into godaddy and disconnected the dns from
any hosting account, the domain is "parked".

Assuming Michael is simply moving his site to a new host and he is not done
with the move.  It's a pain to move a website sometimes.  If the site was
down or the hosting was unpaid there would be a different kind of error
message.

Swtpc.com was one of the first "vintage computer" themed domains from the
90's that I can think of along with Ita Goldklang's TRS 80 site and a few
others.

Bill

>

From abuse at cabal.org.uk  Thu Nov  7 06:23:55 2019
From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 13:23:55 +0100
Subject: swtpc.com expired???
In-Reply-To: <CANdZFKS-5DT=72bWnf5eVGAbzF9J_7BVkyy487xKLik2tU56WA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <0c8f01d594ef$a2b20d10$e8162730$.ref@verizon.net>
 <0c8f01d594ef$a2b20d10$e8162730$@verizon.net>
 <19C6F084-270E-48EF-A8BF-241276EDF5E8@128.ca>
 <CABGJBueL0JyXAi2E9aNL17H37DuMf_eJ-9Cf0-Reo9frcNGYog@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANdZFKS-5DT=72bWnf5eVGAbzF9J_7BVkyy487xKLik2tU56WA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20191107122355.GA15085@mooli.org.uk>

On Thu, Nov 07, 2019 at 09:31:04AM -0200, Alexandre Souza via cctalk wrote:
> Last IP address of the server (71.91.242.107) also directs to a "it works"
> page, so the entire directory may have been deleted. I also tried to access
> subpages (like /Sinclair/Interface2/Interface/Interface2_Circuitry.htm) and
> got a 404.

That IP address is using name-based virtual hosting, and you can see the
content by sending a suitable Host: header and/or tweaking /etc/hosts.

> Seems everything is gone. Hope the archive.org backup is updated :(

I'm taking the liberty of mirroring it just in case. It appears to be on the
end of a bit of wet string, so it's entirely plausible that it is being moved
to a better hosting provider.


From jwest at classiccmp.org  Thu Nov  7 12:02:54 2019
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 12:02:54 -0600
Subject: swtpc.com expired???
In-Reply-To: <20191107122355.GA15085@mooli.org.uk>
References: <0c8f01d594ef$a2b20d10$e8162730$.ref@verizon.net>
 <0c8f01d594ef$a2b20d10$e8162730$@verizon.net>
 <19C6F084-270E-48EF-A8BF-241276EDF5E8@128.ca>
 <CABGJBueL0JyXAi2E9aNL17H37DuMf_eJ-9Cf0-Reo9frcNGYog@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANdZFKS-5DT=72bWnf5eVGAbzF9J_7BVkyy487xKLik2tU56WA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191107122355.GA15085@mooli.org.uk>
Message-ID: <000801d59595$942499b0$bc6dcd10$@classiccmp.org>

That's one of my IP's. I'm quite doubtful that the content is gone, only that the domain registrant perhaps let it expire?

It's safe, please don't rape my bandwidth ?

J

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Peter Corlett via cctalk
Sent: Thursday, November 7, 2019 6:24 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: swtpc.com expired???

On Thu, Nov 07, 2019 at 09:31:04AM -0200, Alexandre Souza via cctalk wrote:
> Last IP address of the server (71.91.242.107) also directs to a "it works"
> page, so the entire directory may have been deleted. I also tried to 
> access subpages (like 
> /Sinclair/Interface2/Interface/Interface2_Circuitry.htm) and got a 404.

That IP address is using name-based virtual hosting, and you can see the content by sending a suitable Host: header and/or tweaking /etc/hosts.

> Seems everything is gone. Hope the archive.org backup is updated :(

I'm taking the liberty of mirroring it just in case. It appears to be on the end of a bit of wet string, so it's entirely plausible that it is being moved to a better hosting provider.



From cube1 at charter.net  Thu Nov  7 16:10:02 2019
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 16:10:02 -0600
Subject: OT: A spring trip!
In-Reply-To: <5DC3964F.4030009@charter.net>
References: <16a8aa5e-2afa-fde2-1367-3ef74d55a845@bitsavers.org>
 <2a1b01d59090$e23e4600$a6bad200$@gmail.com>
 <02ceff7263384a7a895076a0ff62610f@livingcomputers.org>
 <Pine.GSO.4.64.1911020846230.27519@shell3.ripco.com>
 <4d82e0c2c8a74c918246803b1ac3bcee@livingcomputers.org>
 <5DC38E4E.5020602@charter.net> <5DC3964F.4030009@charter.net>
Message-ID: <0bb6da85-56bc-e935-9e72-37f4390e0f32@charter.net>

It is unlikely that I would be able to accompany you, but thought I
would drop a line anyway.  Being in Madtown, I'd certainly be in your
geographic area.

But, out of curiosity:  How long a road trip, and for what purpose?

JRJ

On 11/6/2019 9:58 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote:
> Hello all,
> ??? BTW: Reedsburg area includes Chicago, Milwaukee, Madison,
> Minneapolis, Dubuque, or any other towns or cities within 300 miles.
> GOD Bless and Thanks,
> rich!
> 
> On 11/6/2019 9:23 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote:
>> Hello all,
>> ??? I am looking for someone in the Reedsburg, WI area that would like
>> to take a road trip out West come this spring. Say sometime in late
>> May or early June. If you are interested please let me know.
>> Non-smoker only.
>> GOD Bless and Thanks,
>>
>> Richard R. Pope
>> 1230 19th Street #5
>> Reedsburg, WI 53959, USA
>> 1-608-768-7448
>> mechanic_2 at charter.net
>>
> 
> 

From cube1 at charter.net  Thu Nov  7 16:16:15 2019
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 16:16:15 -0600
Subject: getting your data from yahoo
In-Reply-To: <4d82e0c2c8a74c918246803b1ac3bcee@livingcomputers.org>
References: <16a8aa5e-2afa-fde2-1367-3ef74d55a845@bitsavers.org>
 <2a1b01d59090$e23e4600$a6bad200$@gmail.com>
 <02ceff7263384a7a895076a0ff62610f@livingcomputers.org>
 <Pine.GSO.4.64.1911020846230.27519@shell3.ripco.com>
 <4d82e0c2c8a74c918246803b1ac3bcee@livingcomputers.org>
Message-ID: <dd4d09b6-6ffa-a62a-1daa-96a9c556ccaa@charter.net>

On 11/6/2019 2:23 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote:
> From: Richard Schauer
> Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2019 7:08 AM
> 
> On Sat, 2 Nov 2019, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote:
> 
>>> What tool do I use to look at the contents of this verschlagener file?
> 
>> I also asked for and got one of these files.  Mine took something like 30 
>> hours, and gave me a 584 MB .zip file.  I tried it using a Windows 10 
>> machine, and it consists of directories, each with the name of a group I'm 
>> subscribed to.
> 
> Thanks, Richard!  That was sufficient hint.
> 
> I simply renamed the downloaded file with a .zip extension, and Windows 7 gave
> it a compressed folder icon and opened it right up on a double click.
> 
>                                                                 Rich

Pffft.  I sent them my request on 11/2.  Still no file. I got an email
that they would notify me when it was done - no email yet - so I went to
the site again today and it indicates that they are still processing my
request.

From cube1 at charter.net  Thu Nov  7 16:25:24 2019
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 16:25:24 -0600
Subject: Qume Qumetrack 542 track seeking issue
In-Reply-To: <4897dc5e5abd22aae4823f72ea284b9e@localhost>
References: <4897dc5e5abd22aae4823f72ea284b9e@localhost>
Message-ID: <de3f16c1-d036-6abc-a85d-f2507db8a58a@charter.net>

On 11/4/2019 11:05 PM, rescue via cctalk wrote:

> 
> Been away for some time from the mailing lists....? getting back into my
> classic gear again....
> 
> I have two of these Qumetrack 542 drives.
> 
> While testing my 360K drive collection (8 drives.... I must be slacking
> :-) ...), 2 worked, 4 had issue (resolved with a good head cleaning),
> and 2 (both of the Qumetrack 542 drives (I have two of them)) have mixed
> results.? My testing is on a Tandy 2500SX/33 using the Tandy straight
> through cable and with the drives set do DS0.
> 
> I seem to have no issue with Dunfield's testfdc (using testfdc/x a:)
> with these drives, doing SS and DD and getting 'pass' from testfdc.
> 
> However, when I do a format a:, the drive will format through the 40
> tracks, then instead of the heads returning to track 0 quickly, they do
> these small stepping 'bursts' and DOS times out saying failure..... it
> probably would have worked if DOS would wait 10 seconds or more for the
> drive to move to track 0.
> 
> I've never seen behavior like this.? I even tried an external power
> supply in case the Tandy one wasn't up to driving the full height floppy
> drive due to an aging marginal supply, but that didn't help anything.
> 
> I've now also had one of them shut down the power supply (a shorted
> tantalum cap I'm sure).
> 
> I've looked through the manual on the drive, I've tried the HM, HS, and
> no jumper setting for stepper motor power, same results in all cases.
> 
> I'm trying too determine if these drives are good.? I'm planning on
> using them in a Tandy Model III that is upgraded internally to a Model
> IV, but I feel these are basic drives and should work in DOS fine too.
> 
> I hope someone has a clue, as I'm tapped out of them currently.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> -- Curt
> 
> 

It almost sounds like your PC could be trying to go beyond the last
track.  You did include the proper DOS command parameter(s) to tell it
the drive type, yes?

JRJ

From mechanic_2 at charter.net  Thu Nov  7 18:03:17 2019
From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope)
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 18:03:17 -0600
Subject: OT: A spring trip!
In-Reply-To: <0bb6da85-56bc-e935-9e72-37f4390e0f32@charter.net>
References: <16a8aa5e-2afa-fde2-1367-3ef74d55a845@bitsavers.org>
 <2a1b01d59090$e23e4600$a6bad200$@gmail.com>
 <02ceff7263384a7a895076a0ff62610f@livingcomputers.org>
 <Pine.GSO.4.64.1911020846230.27519@shell3.ripco.com>
 <4d82e0c2c8a74c918246803b1ac3bcee@livingcomputers.org>
 <5DC38E4E.5020602@charter.net> <5DC3964F.4030009@charter.net>
 <0bb6da85-56bc-e935-9e72-37f4390e0f32@charter.net>
Message-ID: <5DC4B0C5.5060108@charter.net>

Jay,
     Whoever decided to go would have input on where and how long. I 
thought by having someone along would allow us to share the experience 
and the expenses, especially the cost of the gasoline. I am open to also 
going to NYC and DC or down South to Florida or Texas. I am very easy to 
travel with. If the person with me says hey let's take that road I am 
open to saying Sure, why not!
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!

On 11/7/2019 4:10 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote:
> It is unlikely that I would be able to accompany you, but thought I
> would drop a line anyway.  Being in Madtown, I'd certainly be in your
> geographic area.
>
> But, out of curiosity:  How long a road trip, and for what purpose?
>
> JRJ
>
> On 11/6/2019 9:58 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote:
>> Hello all,
>>      BTW: Reedsburg area includes Chicago, Milwaukee, Madison,
>> Minneapolis, Dubuque, or any other towns or cities within 300 miles.
>> GOD Bless and Thanks,
>> rich!
>>
>> On 11/6/2019 9:23 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote:
>>> Hello all,
>>>      I am looking for someone in the Reedsburg, WI area that would like
>>> to take a road trip out West come this spring. Say sometime in late
>>> May or early June. If you are interested please let me know.
>>> Non-smoker only.
>>> GOD Bless and Thanks,
>>>
>>> Richard R. Pope
>>> 1230 19th Street #5
>>> Reedsburg, WI 53959, USA
>>> 1-608-768-7448
>>> mechanic_2 at charter.net
>>>
>>


From rescue at hawkmountain.net  Thu Nov  7 18:04:31 2019
From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (rescue)
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2019 19:04:31 -0500
Subject: Anyone have docs/jumper settings for Tecmar "PC 500K/1MEG FLOPPY
 CONTROLLER" ISA card =?UTF-8?Q?=3F?=
Message-ID: <ebcbe5aada16b13a626aa5f7d7901e1d@localhost>


I have one of these, it has 2 jumper blocks, JPR2 (4 3 pin jumper 
'settings'... looks to probably latch each of the 4 high or low) and 
JPR3 (12 on/off jumper positions).
It also has a JPR1 which would be a 3 pin header and it is strapped by 
wire to position 1-2.

Would love to figure out how the IO port and IRQs are configured.  Card 
has no BIOS, so unlike a WD1002A-FOX there won't likely be any jumpers 
to set drive type.  (I'm not having much luck with that card in a Tandy 
2500 SX... but that's a completely different issue).

Hopefully someone has or knows where there are some docs on the jumper 
settings.

I'd imagine I could figure out some by probing which ISA pins various 
jumpers connect to..... but any jumper settings that control chips for 
decoding logic will be far more difficult to determine.


Thanks,

-- Curt


From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Thu Nov  7 20:36:07 2019
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 20:36:07 -0600
Subject: VAX & PDP-11 Stuff To Clean Out
In-Reply-To: <CAD=r4TC5VUrA8eGe47A=2KVUq6+nYZWD8_z0bm_f4d9waCCqAA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD=r4TC5VUrA8eGe47A=2KVUq6+nYZWD8_z0bm_f4d9waCCqAA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e9893c40-70c8-b0b5-f315-0dc77c4000fc@gmail.com>

On 11/6/19 12:16 PM, David Coolbear via cctech wrote:
> M5976-AA KZQSA SCSI Controller Q

Hmm, I could sure use one of those...

I bought a bunch of QBus boards from my recycler quite some time ago, but 
the systems that they'd been pulled from were run with SMD drives. Finding 
a working SMD drive is something of a challenge, but SCSI at least opens up 
possibilities of emulated storage (or real spinning rust, I may still have 
a suitable drive or two, albeit currently on the other side of the Atlantic)

The two VCB02 boards have me intrigued, too :-)

cheers

Jules

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Thu Nov  7 22:54:06 2019
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 20:54:06 -0800
Subject: VAX & PDP-11 Stuff To Clean Out
In-Reply-To: <e9893c40-70c8-b0b5-f315-0dc77c4000fc@gmail.com>
References: <CAD=r4TC5VUrA8eGe47A=2KVUq6+nYZWD8_z0bm_f4d9waCCqAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e9893c40-70c8-b0b5-f315-0dc77c4000fc@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwLpJAL6xtDaXvgSt=Wz=cP=KtS-YVrZm0tN5LQhE2DFrw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 7, 2019 at 6:36 PM Jules Richardson via cctech
<cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> On 11/6/19 12:16 PM, David Coolbear via cctech wrote:
> > M5976-AA KZQSA SCSI Controller Q
>
> Hmm, I could sure use one of those...
>
> I bought a bunch of QBus boards from my recycler quite some time ago, but
> the systems that they'd been pulled from were run with SMD drives. Finding
> a working SMD drive is something of a challenge, but SCSI at least opens up
> possibilities of emulated storage (or real spinning rust, I may still have
> a suitable drive or two, albeit currently on the other side of the Atlantic)

An M5976 KZQSA is not an MSCP compatible controller. If I remember
correctly an M7626 KA660 VAX 4000-200 or better CPU is necessary to
boot from it, and the only OS that supports it is VMS, and only SCSI
CD-ROM drives are officially supported.

I have never tried to boot VMS from a SCSI hard drive attached to an
M5976 KZQSA, or tried to access a SCSI hard drive attached to an M5976
KZQSA after booting VMS from a different drive. I have only used them
for installing VMS from a CD-ROM on a VAX 4000, or for installing
layered products from a CD-ROM on any Q-Bus VAX after VMS is already
installed. For that limited purpose they work well.

From spacewar at gmail.com  Fri Nov  8 03:00:59 2019
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2019 02:00:59 -0700
Subject: VAX & PDP-11 Stuff To Clean Out
In-Reply-To: <e9893c40-70c8-b0b5-f315-0dc77c4000fc@gmail.com>
References: <CAD=r4TC5VUrA8eGe47A=2KVUq6+nYZWD8_z0bm_f4d9waCCqAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <e9893c40-70c8-b0b5-f315-0dc77c4000fc@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTRqzvt+0pX4dshzjSEkoEbuj_gBuZ+UJBBpt7OcjGdhiw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 7, 2019, 19:36 Jules Richardson via cctech <
cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 11/6/19 12:16 PM, David Coolbear via cctech wrote:
> > M5976-AA KZQSA SCSI Controller Q
>
> Hmm, I could sure use one of those...
>

Be forewarned that a KZQSA isn't a "real" SCSI controller. It's doesn't use
MSCP, and doesn't emulate any better-supported controller. It only is
intended to support a few specific tape drives and CD-ROM drives. It's
supported in some versions of VMS; I'm not sure about Ultrix.

I don't think it can be used as a boot device, though I'm less certain
about that.

From dave.dunfield at gmail.com  Fri Nov  8 17:10:24 2019
From: dave.dunfield at gmail.com (Dave Dunfield)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2019 18:10:24 -0500
Subject: Classic equipment available & my bad year.
Message-ID: <CAOfM=WkH707wDJWdsOEiCncomGDXA=sbMXfY01UCirbKMBO87A@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Everyone.

I have had a major health incident which means that I have been unresponsive
for several months. As I need to move in closer to town, I will be disposing
of what remains of my collection (Things like: Altairs, Imsa, PET 2001,
Apple II, TRS-80s, lots of S100 carts etc.)

I have posted some preliminary information at:

   http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/sale.txt

This will be updated on a regular basis.

If you are interested in what happened to me, I have posted
some details at:

   http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/2019.txt

Dave Dunfield

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Fri Nov  8 16:27:27 2019
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2019 17:27:27 -0500
Subject: Classic equipment available & my bad year.
In-Reply-To: <CAOfM=WkH707wDJWdsOEiCncomGDXA=sbMXfY01UCirbKMBO87A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOfM=WkH707wDJWdsOEiCncomGDXA=sbMXfY01UCirbKMBO87A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBueu3WM1ZdScBbU4kYsAHdc1wUViAow5J-Fx4dOkd+evfA@mail.gmail.com>

Dave wow what a story.  I am glad you are recovering my well wishes to you
from me and my family.

Bill Degnan

On Fri, Nov 8, 2019, 5:20 PM Dave Dunfield via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> Hello Everyone.
>
> I have had a major health incident which means that I have been
> unresponsive
> for several months. As I need to move in closer to town, I will be
> disposing
> of what remains of my collection (Things like: Altairs, Imsa, PET 2001,
> Apple II, TRS-80s, lots of S100 carts etc.)
>
> I have posted some preliminary information at:
>
>    http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/sale.txt
>
> This will be updated on a regular basis.
>
> If you are interested in what happened to me, I have posted
> some details at:
>
>    http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/2019.txt
>
> Dave Dunfield
>

From mechanic_2 at charter.net  Fri Nov  8 16:36:10 2019
From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope)
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 16:36:10 -0600
Subject: Classic equipment available & my bad year.
In-Reply-To: <CAOfM=WkH707wDJWdsOEiCncomGDXA=sbMXfY01UCirbKMBO87A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOfM=WkH707wDJWdsOEiCncomGDXA=sbMXfY01UCirbKMBO87A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5DC5EDDA.6050109@charter.net>

Dave,
     I am so sorry to hear about what has happened to you. I am so glad 
that you are recovering. I will hold you and your family in my prayers. 
Yes, miracles still happen. GOD Bless you and yours!!
rich!

On 11/8/2019 5:10 PM, Dave Dunfield via cctalk wrote:
> Hello Everyone.
>
> I have had a major health incident which means that I have been unresponsive
> for several months. As I need to move in closer to town, I will be disposing
> of what remains of my collection (Things like: Altairs, Imsa, PET 2001,
> Apple II, TRS-80s, lots of S100 carts etc.)
>
> I have posted some preliminary information at:
>
>     http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/sale.txt
>
> This will be updated on a regular basis.
>
> If you are interested in what happened to me, I have posted
> some details at:
>
>     http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/2019.txt
>
> Dave Dunfield
>


From santo.nucifora at gmail.com  Fri Nov  8 16:37:39 2019
From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2019 17:37:39 -0500
Subject: Classic equipment available & my bad year.
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBueu3WM1ZdScBbU4kYsAHdc1wUViAow5J-Fx4dOkd+evfA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOfM=WkH707wDJWdsOEiCncomGDXA=sbMXfY01UCirbKMBO87A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBueu3WM1ZdScBbU4kYsAHdc1wUViAow5J-Fx4dOkd+evfA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO6+Cm5hfbBB=2N+AYDD4pfC1kiz_+fdMirhtWxdFFkaevp_sA@mail.gmail.com>

Dave,

That is a remarkable story.  I am glad you are on the mend but sad to hear
of your disposing of your remaining collection.  Your website has been a
regular resource for me personally and I have enjoyed seeing your virtual
collection immensely as a Canadian collector.

I wish you the best in your further recovery.
Santo Nucifora

On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 5:27 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> Dave wow what a story.  I am glad you are recovering my well wishes to you
> from me and my family.
>
> Bill Degnan
>
> On Fri, Nov 8, 2019, 5:20 PM Dave Dunfield via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
> > Hello Everyone.
> >
> > I have had a major health incident which means that I have been
> > unresponsive
> > for several months. As I need to move in closer to town, I will be
> > disposing
> > of what remains of my collection (Things like: Altairs, Imsa, PET 2001,
> > Apple II, TRS-80s, lots of S100 carts etc.)
> >
> > I have posted some preliminary information at:
> >
> >    http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/sale.txt
> >
> > This will be updated on a regular basis.
> >
> > If you are interested in what happened to me, I have posted
> > some details at:
> >
> >    http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/2019.txt
> >
> > Dave Dunfield
> >
>

From nw.johnson at ieee.org  Fri Nov  8 17:01:39 2019
From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2019 18:01:39 -0500
Subject: Classic equipment available & my bad year.
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBueu3WM1ZdScBbU4kYsAHdc1wUViAow5J-Fx4dOkd+evfA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOfM=WkH707wDJWdsOEiCncomGDXA=sbMXfY01UCirbKMBO87A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBueu3WM1ZdScBbU4kYsAHdc1wUViAow5J-Fx4dOkd+evfA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a886ceec-b832-63e3-1edf-96eb5cd541a8@ieee.org>

Your story is an inspiration to us all!? With all the modern medical 
technology and the human spirit,? there is never a reason to give up hope!

Best wishes for a full recovery,

Nigel Johnson

On 08/11/2019 17:27, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
> Dave wow what a story.  I am glad you are recovering my well wishes to you
> from me and my family.
>
> Bill Degnan
>
> On Fri, Nov 8, 2019, 5:20 PM Dave Dunfield via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Hello Everyone.
>>
>> I have had a major health incident which means that I have been
>> unresponsive
>> for several months. As I need to move in closer to town, I will be
>> disposing
>> of what remains of my collection (Things like: Altairs, Imsa, PET 2001,
>> Apple II, TRS-80s, lots of S100 carts etc.)
>>
>> I have posted some preliminary information at:
>>
>>     http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/sale.txt
>>
>> This will be updated on a regular basis.
>>
>> If you are interested in what happened to me, I have posted
>> some details at:
>>
>>     http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/2019.txt
>>
>> Dave Dunfield
>>
  

-- 
Nigel Johnson
MSc., MIEEE
VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU

Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!


You can reach me by voice on Skype:  TILBURY2591

If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday

This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way.
    Nigel Johnson <nw.johnson at ieee.org>

     
Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message




From m.zahorik at sbcglobal.net  Fri Nov  8 17:19:32 2019
From: m.zahorik at sbcglobal.net (mike)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2019 17:19:32 -0600
Subject: Classic equipment available & my bad year.
In-Reply-To: <CAOfM=WkH707wDJWdsOEiCncomGDXA=sbMXfY01UCirbKMBO87A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOfM=WkH707wDJWdsOEiCncomGDXA=sbMXfY01UCirbKMBO87A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C79C630990C046D1BC94BB2796B44397@Dumbbunny64>

May God be with you.

Mike Zahorik
(414) 254-6768
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave
Dunfield via cctalk
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2019 05:10 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Classic equipment available & my bad year.

Hello Everyone.

I have had a major health incident which means that I have been unresponsive
for several months. As I need to move in closer to town, I will be disposing
of what remains of my collection (Things like: Altairs, Imsa, PET 2001,
Apple II, TRS-80s, lots of S100 carts etc.)

I have posted some preliminary information at:

   http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/sale.txt

This will be updated on a regular basis.

If you are interested in what happened to me, I have posted
some details at:

   http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/2019.txt

Dave Dunfield


From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com  Fri Nov  8 17:57:07 2019
From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2019 23:57:07 +0000
Subject: Classic equipment available & my bad year.
In-Reply-To: <CAOfM=WkH707wDJWdsOEiCncomGDXA=sbMXfY01UCirbKMBO87A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOfM=WkH707wDJWdsOEiCncomGDXA=sbMXfY01UCirbKMBO87A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2721549D-9146-4F9B-9AD5-B6372EDE95A3@gmail.com>


> On 8 Nov 2019, at 23:10, Dave Dunfield via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Hello Everyone.
> 
> I have had a major health incident which means that I have been unresponsive
> for several months. As I need to move in closer to town, I will be disposing
> of what remains of my collection (Things like: Altairs, Imsa, PET 2001,
> Apple II, TRS-80s, lots of S100 carts etc.)
> 
> I have posted some preliminary information at:
> 
>   http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/sale.txt
> 
> This will be updated on a regular basis.
> 
> If you are interested in what happened to me, I have posted
> some details at:
> 
>   http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/2019.txt
> 
> Dave Dunfield


Oh wow, just wow. What a story and quick road to recovery. I?d like to join everyone else in passing on good wishes for ongoing bodily repairs! Your tools have been invaluable to me while resurrecting my CP/M machines, in particular my Exidy Sorcerer. Best of luck and please keep us up to date.

-- 
Adrian Graham
Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection?
t: @binarydinosaurs    f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs
w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk






From harper at secureoutcomes-hq.com  Fri Nov  8 18:05:44 2019
From: harper at secureoutcomes-hq.com (Jack Harper)
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2019 17:05:44 -0700
Subject: Classic equipment available & my bad year.
In-Reply-To: <CAOfM=WkH707wDJWdsOEiCncomGDXA=sbMXfY01UCirbKMBO87A@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <CAOfM=WkH707wDJWdsOEiCncomGDXA=sbMXfY01UCirbKMBO87A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20191109000604.149684E753@mx2.ezwind.net>


><snip>
>I have had a major health incident which means that I have been unresponsive
>for several months. As I need to move in closer to town, I will be disposing
>of what remains of my collection (Things like: Altairs, Imsa, PET 2001,
>Apple II, TRS-80s, lots of S100 carts etc.)


Best Wishes Dave.

Jack




----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Harper, President
Secure Outcomes Inc
2942 Evergreen Parkway, Suite 300
Evergreen, Colorado 80439 USA

303.670.8375
303.670.3750 (fax)

http://www.secureoutcomes.net for Product Info. 


From linimon at lonesome.com  Fri Nov  8 19:44:34 2019
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2019 01:44:34 +0000
Subject: Classic equipment available & my bad year.
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBueu3WM1ZdScBbU4kYsAHdc1wUViAow5J-Fx4dOkd+evfA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOfM=WkH707wDJWdsOEiCncomGDXA=sbMXfY01UCirbKMBO87A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBueu3WM1ZdScBbU4kYsAHdc1wUViAow5J-Fx4dOkd+evfA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20191109014434.GB4086@lonesome.com>

On Fri, Nov 08, 2019 at 05:27:27PM -0500, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
> I am glad you are recovering my well wishes to you from me and my family.

Hear, hear.

mcl

From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Fri Nov  8 21:57:48 2019
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2019 22:57:48 -0500
Subject: Low Level Format Some RX-50s?
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfDWjD5oN4MYSVJpryk=BkkoQwDfUtZ-ZtwDZNgtAfUOqw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,
  Anyone with the requisite hardware handy willing to do a box of ten or so
for me, pretty please?  I'm in western Pennsylvania, USA

thx
jake

From imp at bsdimp.com  Fri Nov  8 22:48:08 2019
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2019 21:48:08 -0700
Subject: Low Level Format Some RX-50s?
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfDWjD5oN4MYSVJpryk=BkkoQwDfUtZ-ZtwDZNgtAfUOqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfDWjD5oN4MYSVJpryk=BkkoQwDfUtZ-ZtwDZNgtAfUOqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfrZ_H8TGqpW+tFMwCym5PPX0DH9hMVsiZq=y9iqr5-SKg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 8, 2019, 8:58 PM Jacob Ritorto via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> Hi,
>   Anyone with the requisite hardware handy willing to do a box of ten or so
> for me, pretty please?  I'm in western Pennsylvania, USA
>

I'm in Colorado and could do a box on my Rainbow...

Warner

thx
> jake
>

From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Sat Nov  9 00:43:01 2019
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2019 01:43:01 -0500
Subject: Low Level Format Some RX-50s?
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfrZ_H8TGqpW+tFMwCym5PPX0DH9hMVsiZq=y9iqr5-SKg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfDWjD5oN4MYSVJpryk=BkkoQwDfUtZ-ZtwDZNgtAfUOqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfrZ_H8TGqpW+tFMwCym5PPX0DH9hMVsiZq=y9iqr5-SKg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfD=fyzXX6EQa=1u-Mdd0BM32nb==SFFB4aGzwm2bPYKdg@mail.gmail.com>

Yay, thanks!  I'll follow up off-list!

On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 11:48 PM Warner Losh via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Nov 8, 2019, 8:58 PM Jacob Ritorto via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >   Anyone with the requisite hardware handy willing to do a box of ten or so
> > for me, pretty please?  I'm in western Pennsylvania, USA
> >
>
> I'm in Colorado and could do a box on my Rainbow...
>
> Warner
>
> thx
> > jake
> >

From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com  Sat Nov  9 03:28:37 2019
From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza)
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2019 07:28:37 -0200
Subject: Classic equipment available & my bad year.
In-Reply-To: <20191109000604.149684E753@mx2.ezwind.net>
References: <CAOfM=WkH707wDJWdsOEiCncomGDXA=sbMXfY01UCirbKMBO87A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191109000604.149684E753@mx2.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <CANdZFKQ0GStth+UoORn+A4Wn_foc3Hn-RmZr8vdr8JyePctU3A@mail.gmail.com>

Oh Dave, I'm SO sorry for all this that happened to you...I'm very happy
you're recovering and getting better every day.

We're not friends but your name is so present in miy life for a long
time...I used your programs and your site a lot and still use it.

Hope you get better. There are lots of people here in Brazil wishing you
get better soon!

---8<---Corte aqui---8<---
http://www.tabajara-labs.blogspot.com
http://www.tabalabs.com.br
---8<---Corte aqui---8<---


Em sex., 8 de nov. de 2019 ?s 22:44, Jack Harper via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> escreveu:

>
> ><snip>
> >I have had a major health incident which means that I have been
> unresponsive
> >for several months. As I need to move in closer to town, I will be
> disposing
> >of what remains of my collection (Things like: Altairs, Imsa, PET 2001,
> >Apple II, TRS-80s, lots of S100 carts etc.)
>
>
> Best Wishes Dave.
>
> Jack
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Jack Harper, President
> Secure Outcomes Inc
> 2942 Evergreen Parkway, Suite 300
> Evergreen, Colorado 80439 USA
>
> 303.670.8375
> 303.670.3750 (fax)
>
> http://www.secureoutcomes.net for Product Info.
>
>

From dave.dunfield at gmail.com  Sat Nov  9 08:16:57 2019
From: dave.dunfield at gmail.com (Dave Dunfield)
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2019 09:16:57 -0500
Subject: 191109 Classic equipment available & my bad year.
Message-ID: <CAOfM=Wni=pjq9yC4AFDr7C=cvO2nuFrNHC4kxdKk6AMnO3bswg@mail.gmail.com>

191109: Added PDP-11s, KIM1, EDB9301, MMT-85 & FloppyDrives

Thanks to everyone for the kind words on my situation.

Had lots of correspondence from various people interested in
certain systems, but no offers, and very little information on
what people think they are worth. Many of these systems are
very old, very rare and nearly impossible to acquire. As I am no
longer working I want to maximize what I receive from them.
I will be researching this over the next year and will add prices
if/when I work them out. If price is unknown I will take the highest
reasonable offer, so I cannot offer systems now without an idea
of what they are worth to you.

Had several messages asking about other systems I show on "Daves
Old Computers". I have been dealing with several collectors in
Toronto and Ottawa, and any systems not listed in sale.txt is
already gone (still taking inventory so may add a few more, as
well as a LOT of other technical stuff.

> --- Original Message ---
>I have had a major health incident which means that I have been unresponsive
>for several months. As I need to move in closer to town, I will be disposing
>of what remains of my collection (Things like: Altairs, Imsa, PET 2001,
>Apple II, TRS-80s, lots of S100 carts etc.)
>
>I have posted some preliminary information at:
>
>   http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/sale.txt

Dave

From cube1 at charter.net  Sat Nov  9 08:14:25 2019
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2019 08:14:25 -0600
Subject: Classic equipment available & my bad year.
In-Reply-To: <CAOfM=WkH707wDJWdsOEiCncomGDXA=sbMXfY01UCirbKMBO87A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOfM=WkH707wDJWdsOEiCncomGDXA=sbMXfY01UCirbKMBO87A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8a1f84cb-c15f-d13c-0a6f-f1821ff921df@charter.net>

On 11/8/2019 5:10 PM, Dave Dunfield via cctalk wrote:
> Hello Everyone.
> 
> I have had a major health incident which means that I have been unresponsive
> for several months. As I need to move in closer to town, I will be disposing
> of what remains of my collection (Things like: Altairs, Imsa, PET 2001,
> Apple II, TRS-80s, lots of S100 carts etc.)
> 
> I have posted some preliminary information at:
> 
>    http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/sale.txt
> 
> This will be updated on a regular basis.
> 
> If you are interested in what happened to me, I have posted
> some details at:
> 
>    http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/2019.txt
> 
> Dave Dunfield
> 

As someone who has benefited from your work, I wish you all the best.

JRJ

From barythrin at gmail.com  Sat Nov  9 11:03:23 2019
From: barythrin at gmail.com (John Herron)
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2019 11:03:23 -0600
Subject: Classic equipment available & my bad year.
In-Reply-To: <CAOfM=WkH707wDJWdsOEiCncomGDXA=sbMXfY01UCirbKMBO87A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOfM=WkH707wDJWdsOEiCncomGDXA=sbMXfY01UCirbKMBO87A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEOGs+hyiZtNdZS5kvvmnZ=y5jZGVtfARtmrrJYw6MkocfWp0A@mail.gmail.com>

Amazing story and thank you for sharing that with us. I can't count the
number of times I've ended up on your site for archiving disk info. I still
have my partially but never completed floppy connectors that I need to back
up some 8" media.

All the best wishes and luck to you and your family!

- John

On Fri, Nov 8, 2019, 4:20 PM Dave Dunfield via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> Hello Everyone.
>
> I have had a major health incident which means that I have been
> unresponsive
> for several months. As I need to move in closer to town, I will be
> disposing
> of what remains of my collection (Things like: Altairs, Imsa, PET 2001,
> Apple II, TRS-80s, lots of S100 carts etc.)
>
> I have posted some preliminary information at:
>
>    http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/sale.txt
>
> This will be updated on a regular basis.
>
> If you are interested in what happened to me, I have posted
> some details at:
>
>    http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/2019.txt
>
> Dave Dunfield
>

From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Nov  9 13:07:09 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2019 11:07:09 -0800
Subject: Anyone have docs/jumper settings for Tecmar "PC 500K/1MEG FLOPPY
 CONTROLLER" ISA card ?
In-Reply-To: <ebcbe5aada16b13a626aa5f7d7901e1d@localhost>
References: <ebcbe5aada16b13a626aa5f7d7901e1d@localhost>
Message-ID: <c80d7971-3b1b-91f2-94d0-e8938cf9d77f@sydex.com>

On 11/7/19 4:04 PM, rescue via cctalk wrote:
> 
> I have one of these, it has 2 jumper blocks, JPR2 (4 3 pin jumper
> 'settings'... looks to probably latch each of the 4 high or low) and
> JPR3 (12 on/off jumper positions).
> It also has a JPR1 which would be a 3 pin header and it is strapped by

Given the age of this thing (ca 1983), it's doubtful that it uses the
same register mapping that the PC AT uses.

A photo might help to pin things down further.

--chuck


From marvin at west.net  Sat Nov  9 14:38:23 2019
From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston)
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2019 12:38:23 -0800
Subject: Classic equipment available & my bad year.
Message-ID: <86959a75-189d-644a-47c7-7a52065c01b1@west.net>

Dave, sorry to hear about your situation.

Regarding system/parts/etc. selling prices, I use something called 
TeraPeak. It is available on a subscription basis with the downside that 
it is now part of Ebay... I quit them in 2015 with no current plans of 
ever having anything to do with them, but is still the best way I've 
found to get pricing on what sells and how much. It normally has the 
actual selling price as opposed to the "asking" price on the main 
listing. Because the prices on TeraPeak are the actual selling prices 
inflated by the eBay fees and "free" shipping, I generally reduce them 
by around 20% - 30% to get realistic pricing (rare items excepted.)

Another what appears to be similar service is Worthpoint. Although I've 
looked at it, I have never actually used it.

Like you, I had plans of starting a museum and thus have stuff that I 
haven't been able to find pricing information using either TeraPeak or 
Google. That would include rare terminals (i.e. Hazeltone, ),  some 
computers (Philips word processors, Wang, etc.), documentation (IBM, 
Burroughs, a variety of printers, etc.) and a lot of other "stuff" 
(including some of the stuff you have listed.) How many people have 
heard of DMA Systems?

Since I live in Santa Barbara where a number of computer, software, 
peripheral were made, I decided to keep anything made in the Santa 
Barbara and still have plans for a museum dedicated to what was made 
here. That is something you might find possible in your area.

Another thing I'm "collecting" is anecdotes about computer collecting in 
the Santa Barbara area. Two examples are where how the name Pickles and 
Trout came about, and Lobo drives being named after Roger Billings 
(formerly Production manager at Polymorphic) pet wolf, etc.

You might also consider writing a book documenting some of the knowledge 
you acquired about computers, etc.

In any case, it sounds like you are well on your way to recovery. So my 
best to you and your family during this recovery period!

Marvin


> Thanks to everyone for the kind words on my situation.
> 
> Had lots of correspondence from various people interested in
> certain systems, but no offers, and very little information on
> what people think they are worth. Many of these systems are
> very old, very rare and nearly impossible to acquire. As I am no
> longer working I want to maximize what I receive from them.
> I will be researching this over the next year and will add prices
> if/when I work them out. If price is unknown I will take the highest
> reasonable offer, so I cannot offer systems now without an idea
> of what they are worth to you.


From derschjo at gmail.com  Sat Nov  9 14:41:52 2019
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2019 12:41:52 -0800
Subject: Looking for documentation for VAX-11/730 ENKCC Diagnostic
Message-ID: <CADBZjLbAwp-an5ekmmRespVGHH3Wv8w_06aWj8X=-fSc-1b7LQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all --

The VAX-11/730 we have running here at the museum has developed a fault
that occurs only sporadically, usually days apart.  Running the complete
diagnostic suite for the better part of a week reveals this:

SECT  TST ERR   EXP      REC      OTHER    MSK    MODULE
ENKCC 33  08  000000FF 000000DF   N/A    FFFFFF00 M8391  M8728

Re-running only ENKCC, this error is repeatable (though it still takes a
couple of days for it to occur).  It helpfully points out the MCT (M8391)
and memory boards (M8728) as possible causes; we have spare M8728s and I've
swapped them around with no change in behavior.  I have a spare M8391 in my
own collection but it fails in a completely different way so that's not
much help.

I cannot find any real documentation for ENKCC so I don't know what TEST 33
is doing, nor what ERROR 8 indicates in this context, though it seems we're
dropping a bit somewhere :).  Anyone out there sitting on a pile of 11/730
documentation?

Thanks as always!
- Josh

From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Sat Nov  9 14:46:38 2019
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2019 14:46:38 -0600
Subject: TI994/A Power Supply
In-Reply-To: <B026DD6E-17A7-4F8D-B931-259B9CB854C8@gmail.com>
References: <017501d592d4$faf1f2a0$f0d5d7e0$@internode.on.net>
 <B026DD6E-17A7-4F8D-B931-259B9CB854C8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cab484fe-b1c1-13a3-8c0e-b6990ad9e694@gmail.com>

On 11/4/19 7:39 AM, Allison Parent via cctalk wrote:
> Do better research. The power is external transformer and internal low
> voltage switch mode power supply.

It seems to depend on the variant. I've got a /4 and a /4A which have 4-pin 
plugs on the back, and these use an external PSU outputting 18VAC and 8.5VAC.

I've got another /4A however which has a 2-pin plug on the back, and that 
one appears to just take plain ol' 110VAC line voltage and the PSU is 
completely internal (at least, there's a power cord with it which fits, but 
that one has a few broken keys and so I've never actually done anything 
with it).

cheers

Jules



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sat Nov  9 16:57:59 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2019 14:57:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Anyone have docs/jumper settings for Tecmar "PC 500K/1MEG FLOPPY
 CONTROLLER" ISA card ?
In-Reply-To: <c80d7971-3b1b-91f2-94d0-e8938cf9d77f@sydex.com>
References: <ebcbe5aada16b13a626aa5f7d7901e1d@localhost>
 <c80d7971-3b1b-91f2-94d0-e8938cf9d77f@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911091450030.8617@shell.lmi.net>

On 11/7/19 4:04 PM, rescue via cctalk wrote:
> I have one of these, it has 2 jumper blocks, JPR2 (4 3 pin jumper
> 'settings'... looks to probably latch each of the 4 high or low) and
> JPR3 (12 on/off jumper positions).
> It also has a JPR1 which would be a 3 pin header and it is strapped by

Tecmar made a PC floppy controller that also supported 8" MFM.
There were jumpers for that, including the 500K data transfer rate.
Tecmar's 8" MFM format was not the same as the IBM 1.2M, nor the same as 
"Vista" nor "Maynard".

I don't remember the cabling.  It may have had a 50 pin dual row header, 
rather than cabling the 8" from the DC37

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From phb.hfx at gmail.com  Sat Nov  9 19:54:48 2019
From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger)
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2019 21:54:48 -0400
Subject: Anyone have docs/jumper settings for Tecmar "PC 500K/1MEG FLOPPY
 CONTROLLER" ISA card ?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911091450030.8617@shell.lmi.net>
References: <ebcbe5aada16b13a626aa5f7d7901e1d@localhost>
 <c80d7971-3b1b-91f2-94d0-e8938cf9d77f@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911091450030.8617@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <082c1e9f-0c74-6204-aef2-f31569a5b941@gmail.com>


On 2019-11-09 6:57 p.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> On 11/7/19 4:04 PM, rescue via cctalk wrote:
>> I have one of these, it has 2 jumper blocks, JPR2 (4 3 pin jumper
>> 'settings'... looks to probably latch each of the 4 high or low) and
>> JPR3 (12 on/off jumper positions).
>> It also has a JPR1 which would be a 3 pin header and it is strapped by
>
> Tecmar made a PC floppy controller that also supported 8" MFM.
> There were jumpers for that, including the 500K data transfer rate.
> Tecmar's 8" MFM format was not the same as the IBM 1.2M, nor the same 
> as "Vista" nor "Maynard".
>
> I don't remember the cabling.? It may have had a 50 pin dual row 
> header, rather than cabling the 8" from the DC37
>
> -- 
> Grumpy Ol' Fred???????????? cisin at xenosoft.com

I have manuals for the Tecmar PC-Mate Floppy 5/8 and also the SASI 
adapter that was part of the PC-Mate system.? Not sure if this is the 
same Tecmar floppy adapter it is a full length 8 bit ISA card with a 50 
pin connector at the rear of the card and two 34 pin edge connectors at 
the top near the back for 5.25 drives. The floppy controller chip on it 
is a UPD 765.

There is also a manual for the Xebec S1410 SASI to ST-406 controller.

Paul.


From david at thecoolbears.org  Fri Nov  8 14:12:11 2019
From: david at thecoolbears.org (David Coolbear)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2019 12:12:11 -0800
Subject: VAX & PDP-11 Stuff To Clean Out
Message-ID: <CAD=r4TA=SAnJpp9soaDykFMyuP-i6=+-j_zZOkmnW3pX-dtaDA@mail.gmail.com>

Most of the items are spoken for but I still have the following:


Caminton CMX1651 Memory
M7606-AF KA630 CPU
M7620-AA KA650 CPU
M8067 Memory
M7168 VCB02 Bit Map
M7169 VCB02 Controller
M7608-BP MS630BB 4-Meg Memory
M7608-BP MS630BB 4-Meg Memory
SCD-RQD11/EC ESDI Controller
...so, mainly the VAX stuff. Priority goes to local pickup. I've had all of
these boards working at one time or another but I can't speak to their
current status.

David Coolbear
david at thecoolbears.org

From nw.johnson at ieee.org  Fri Nov  8 14:20:20 2019
From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2019 15:20:20 -0500
Subject: VAX & PDP-11 Stuff To Clean Out
In-Reply-To: <CAD=r4TA=SAnJpp9soaDykFMyuP-i6=+-j_zZOkmnW3pX-dtaDA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD=r4TA=SAnJpp9soaDykFMyuP-i6=+-j_zZOkmnW3pX-dtaDA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <463bf726-0e51-2975-1f18-212b26dafa43@ieee.org>

I'm starting to get heavily invested in rebuilding my microvax 2, it 
would be a shame if the cpu failed, so I'd like to put my name down for 
the KA630 pcu card if nobody local wants it.

cheers,

Nigel


On 08/11/2019 15:12, David Coolbear via cctech wrote:
> Most of the items are spoken for but I still have the following:
>
>
> Caminton CMX1651 Memory
> M7606-AF KA630 CPU
> M7620-AA KA650 CPU
> M8067 Memory
> M7168 VCB02 Bit Map
> M7169 VCB02 Controller
> M7608-BP MS630BB 4-Meg Memory
> M7608-BP MS630BB 4-Meg Memory
> SCD-RQD11/EC ESDI Controller
> ...so, mainly the VAX stuff. Priority goes to local pickup. I've had all of
> these boards working at one time or another but I can't speak to their
> current status.
>
> David Coolbear
> david at thecoolbears.org

  

-- 
Nigel Johnson
MSc., MIEEE
VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU

Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!


You can reach me by voice on Skype:  TILBURY2591

If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday

This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way.
    Nigel Johnson <nw.johnson at ieee.org>

     
Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message




From ian.finder at gmail.com  Fri Nov  8 18:39:25 2019
From: ian.finder at gmail.com (null)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2019 16:39:25 -0800
Subject: VAX & PDP-11 Stuff To Clean Out
In-Reply-To: <311e45d4-d278-83e1-8bc5-8655929c7b18@ieee.org>
References: <311e45d4-d278-83e1-8bc5-8655929c7b18@ieee.org>
Message-ID: <AA3AE73B-7675-4C85-841B-B181F898D474@gmail.com>

I have a machine that needs these specific models of ESDI disk Nigel, I was hoping for them.

Your Uvax can use plenty of different types.

Trying to facilitate transfer (I am speaking of only the Maxtor disks)

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 6, 2019, at 13:45, Nigel Johnson via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> ?Are you sure you won't ship the Maxtor ESDI drves?  I have a microvax 2 here just crying out for them. Unfortunately CA is a five day drive away for me!
> 
> Nigel ve3id
> 
> 
>> On 06/11/2019 13:16, David Coolbear via cctech wrote:
>> I have the following 5-1/4" Drives that I would like to get rid of. These
>> have all been working at one time or another, but I have no idea what
>> condition they are in now.
>> 
>> 
>> Maxtor EXT 4330
>> Seagate ST4766N
>> Hitachi DK516-12
>> Maxtor XT-8760E
>> Maxtor XT-4170E
>> 
>> I also have the following QBUS cards to part with.
>> 
>> Module Number Part# Description Form
>> QBUS Extender D
>> M7504 DEQNA Ethernet D
>> M8043 DLV11 4xSLU D
>> M8043 DLV11 4xSLU D
>> M7941 DRV11 16 Bit Parallel D
>> M8186 KDF11 11/23 CPU D
>> M8186 KDF11 11/23 CPU D
>> M8189 KDJ11 11/73 CPU D
>> M8192-YB KDJ11 11/73 CPU D
>> M8192-YB KDJ11 11/73 CPU D
>> M8047 MXV11 ROM/RAM D
>> M7555 RQDX3 D
>> M8029 RXV21 RX02 Controller D
>> M7646 TQK50 Tape Controller D
>> M8044-DB Memory 16K 32K? D
>> M8044-DE Memory 16K 32K? D
>> DATARAM 63010 Q
>> Camington CMX1651 Memory Q
>> M7606-AF KA630 CPU Q
>> M7620-AA KA650 CPU Q
>> M7620-BA KA650 CPU Q
>> M7164 KDA50 SDI Controller Q
>> M7165 KDA50 SDI Controller Q
>> M5976-AA KZQSA SCSI Controller Q
>> M5976-AA KZQSA SCSI Controller Q
>> M8067 Memory Q
>> M7168 VCB02 Bit Map Q
>> M7169 VCB02 Controller Q
>> M7608-BP MS630BB 4-Meg Memory Q
>> M7608-BP MS630BB 4-Meg Memory Q
>> M7957 4xSLU Q
>> SCD-RQD11/EC ESDI Controller Q
>> 
>> 
>> All of these are FTAGH, but I wouldn't turn down a trade either. I'd be
>> interested in drive sleds for my BA123 or a spare power supply, also for
>> the BA123 or I'm always interested in M68K/M6809 stuff. I would prefer
>> local pickup near Livermore, CA. I don't believe that the drives are
>> shippable.
>> 
>> Please contact me directly at <david at thecoolbears.org>
> 
> 
> -- 
> Nigel Johnson
> MSc., MIEEE
> VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU
> 
> Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!
> 
> 
> You can reach me by voice on Skype:  TILBURY2591
> 
> If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday
> 
> This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way.
>   Nigel Johnson <nw.johnson at ieee.org>
> 
>    Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message
> 
> 
> 

From roelof_klaas at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 10 05:14:20 2019
From: roelof_klaas at yahoo.com (Roland)
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2019 11:14:20 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: SpaceWar without needing an EAE for PDP8 /E /F /M /A
References: <1905534316.1355224.1573384460575.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1905534316.1355224.1573384460575@mail.yahoo.com>

Hello everyone,
I've been playing with SpaceWar for my PDP8 Omnibus machines. Since I don'thave the EAE option I've made the LAB8 / AX08 version work on the VC8E.
So now you can run Evan Suits SpaceWar version on an Omnibus machine 
and you don't need an EAE.? https://github.com/Roland-Huisman/SpaceWar

And for those who might not have the VC8E graphics boards I've designed74xx clone boards. These are my VC8E (M869 / M855) clone boards:
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Roland-Huisman/Digital_VC8E_M885R_Digital_Analog_converter/master/VC8E%20M885R%20Front.jpghttps://raw.githubusercontent.com/Roland-Huisman/Digital_VC8E_M869R_Point_Plot_Controller/master/VC8E%20M869R%20Front.jpg

And this is the DK8E RTC clone (M882) which I'm using.
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Roland-Huisman/Digital_DK8E_M882R_Mains_RTC/master/DK8EA%20M882R%20Front.jpg

There are a few more board clones on my GitHub like the RX8E (M8357) for the RX01/RX02
or TA8E (M8331) for the TU60 if anyone would be interested. With the gerber files andpart lists you should be able to make your own boards. They are all 74xx clones sono hard to find DEC chips on it...

I'm not very active on cctech and I guess some people on cctech are maybe not active on vcfed.So I thought it is nice to mention it here too...

Regards, Roland

From derschjo at gmail.com  Sun Nov 10 15:39:26 2019
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2019 13:39:26 -0800
Subject: ISO: Monochrome monitor suitable for use with VAXStation 2000
Message-ID: <CADBZjLbz8cs5B3FXqc_HXNcj-a-DT_U5Aobu5n4_7+1qLtvkgQ@mail.gmail.com>

I'm looking for a VR260, VR262, VR150, or similar.  Working or not, as long
as it's complete and not falling apart.

Thanks in advance!
Josh

From trash80 at internode.on.net  Sun Nov 10 15:40:55 2019
From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 08:40:55 +1100
Subject: SOT - Grab first and ask questions later
Message-ID: <0ccb01d5980f$888d2320$99a76960$@internode.on.net>

I suspect a number of members are like me - when there's salvage or rescue
stuff on the radar you grab first and ask question later otherwise tomorrow
it might not be there.

 

I quite like those picker shows and subscribe to their philosophy "buy (or
grab) it when you see it". I'm still ruing the day I let a TRS-80 Model II
with a full set of floppy drives go by procrastinating as I haven't seen one
since.

 

Anyway a little while ago someone I know was quitting their business and
gave me all their office salvage - laptops, PC's, printers, KVMs, routers,
monitors etc etc. As before I did not ask any questions and did not look the
gift horse in the mouth.

 

The other day I needed a CD drive for a little project and went through the
stuff , found something promising and opened it up.  Anyway they'd been
doing all their "business" in there (number ones and twos amongst many other
things I suspect) and the machine was a write off. I suspect finds by other
list members have been even more "interesting"

 

http://koken.advancedimaging.com.au/index.php?/albums/interesting-finds/

 

 

Kevin Parker

 

 


From silent700 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 10 16:18:59 2019
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2019 16:18:59 -0600
Subject: SOT - Grab first and ask questions later
In-Reply-To: <0ccb01d5980f$888d2320$99a76960$@internode.on.net>
References: <0ccb01d5980f$888d2320$99a76960$@internode.on.net>
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SFNW-iw9WmZ9w-evXrEzJczXyBJU7Zq=X_Fs8CxWiDEgg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 10, 2019 at 3:41 PM Kevin Parker via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> things I suspect) and the machine was a write off. I suspect finds by other
> list members have been even more "interesting"
>
> http://koken.advancedimaging.com.au/index.php?/albums/interesting-finds/

It's never a bad time to bring up the infamous HantaPET,  a rare
Commodore PET64 that was free for a good reason:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/UzxDNVD2AYlA14ty1

From dave at babcock-family.org  Sun Nov 10 22:44:32 2019
From: dave at babcock-family.org (Dave Babcock)
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2019 20:44:32 -0800
Subject: [Cadetwriter] Announcements
Message-ID: <6acb45db-6ce8-e9fa-121a-f40b717c01b6@babcock-family.org>

To all,

The Computer History Museum's IBM 1620 Jr. project team has several 
announcements about Cadetwriter:

1)? Congratulations to Paul Williamson as the first person, besides our 
project team, to successfully build his own Cadetwriter.? We know that a 
number of people are building or planning to build one, but Paul is the 
first person we've heard from that has completed it.

 ??? If you are building, or planning to build, a Cadetwriter, please 
let us know about it.

 ??? Paul's WheelWriter 1000 seems to have a different version of the 
logic board and/or its firmware than the CHM WheelWriters. This exposed 
several issues that Paul diagnosed which led to changes in the 
Cadetwriter firmware that make it more robust.

2)? A new version (5R5) of the firmware is available with these 
important changes:
 ??? -? Added support for semi-automatic paper loading.
 ??? -? Increased the Interrupt Service Routine delay time to deal with 
overlapping column scans.
 ??? -? Adjusted the timing of unshifted, shifted, and code characters.

 ??? This firmware is available at: https://github.com/IBM-1620/Cadetwriter

3)? There is a new Cadetwriter message board at: 
https://cadetwriter.slack.com

 ??? There are actually 5 channels available:
 ??? -? Cadetwriter/announcements - for announcements of new versions of 
the firmware, documentation, hardware, etc.
 ??? -? Cadetwriter/description - for a general description of 
Cadetwriter and links to resources.
 ??? -? Cadetwriter/building - a discussion forum for those building a 
Cadetwriter.
 ??? -? Cadetwriter/operating - a discussion forum for those using a 
Cadetwriter.
 ??? -? Cadetwriter/suggestions - a discussion forum for proposed 
additions/changes to Cadetwriter.

 ??? If you have interest in Cadetwriter, please register and 
participate in the discussion.


Thanks,
IBM 1620 Jr. Team


From dave at babcock-family.org  Sun Nov 10 22:44:32 2019
From: dave at babcock-family.org (Dave Babcock)
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2019 20:44:32 -0800
Subject: [Cadetwriter] Announcements
Message-ID: <6acb45db-6ce8-e9fa-121a-f40b717c01b6@babcock-family.org>

To all,

The Computer History Museum's IBM 1620 Jr. project team has several 
announcements about Cadetwriter:

1)? Congratulations to Paul Williamson as the first person, besides our 
project team, to successfully build his own Cadetwriter.? We know that a 
number of people are building or planning to build one, but Paul is the 
first person we've heard from that has completed it.

 ??? If you are building, or planning to build, a Cadetwriter, please 
let us know about it.

 ??? Paul's WheelWriter 1000 seems to have a different version of the 
logic board and/or its firmware than the CHM WheelWriters. This exposed 
several issues that Paul diagnosed which led to changes in the 
Cadetwriter firmware that make it more robust.

2)? A new version (5R5) of the firmware is available with these 
important changes:
 ??? -? Added support for semi-automatic paper loading.
 ??? -? Increased the Interrupt Service Routine delay time to deal with 
overlapping column scans.
 ??? -? Adjusted the timing of unshifted, shifted, and code characters.

 ??? This firmware is available at: https://github.com/IBM-1620/Cadetwriter

3)? There is a new Cadetwriter message board at: 
https://cadetwriter.slack.com

 ??? There are actually 5 channels available:
 ??? -? Cadetwriter/announcements - for announcements of new versions of 
the firmware, documentation, hardware, etc.
 ??? -? Cadetwriter/description - for a general description of 
Cadetwriter and links to resources.
 ??? -? Cadetwriter/building - a discussion forum for those building a 
Cadetwriter.
 ??? -? Cadetwriter/operating - a discussion forum for those using a 
Cadetwriter.
 ??? -? Cadetwriter/suggestions - a discussion forum for proposed 
additions/changes to Cadetwriter.

 ??? If you have interest in Cadetwriter, please register and 
participate in the discussion.


Thanks,
IBM 1620 Jr. Team


From spacewar at gmail.com  Mon Nov 11 01:12:15 2019
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 00:12:15 -0700
Subject: TI994/A Power Supply
In-Reply-To: <cab484fe-b1c1-13a3-8c0e-b6990ad9e694@gmail.com>
References: <017501d592d4$faf1f2a0$f0d5d7e0$@internode.on.net>
 <B026DD6E-17A7-4F8D-B931-259B9CB854C8@gmail.com>
 <cab484fe-b1c1-13a3-8c0e-b6990ad9e694@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTR9zTKPFvmWGM17tO0nXTq7kcjG3UMRvBx0q+noCULgDw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 1:46 PM Jules Richardson via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I've got another /4A however which has a 2-pin plug on the back, and that
> one appears to just take plain ol' 110VAC line voltage and the PSU is
> completely internal (at least, there's a power cord with it which fits,
> but
> that one has a few broken keys and so I've never actually done anything
> with it).
>

I'm about 95% certain that it does NOT take line voltage in. It just has a
different internal power supply assembly that only uses one of the
low-voltage AC inputs from the external power supply instead of both. As
far as I've ever heard, there was no 99/4 or 99/4A that did not use an
external power supply.

If it were mine, I wouldn't even consider pluging it into line voltage
until doing a lot more research on exactly what's inside.

From geoffr at zipcon.net  Mon Nov 11 03:55:24 2019
From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 01:55:24 -0800
Subject: Classic equipment available & my bad year.
In-Reply-To: <CAOfM=WkH707wDJWdsOEiCncomGDXA=sbMXfY01UCirbKMBO87A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOfM=WkH707wDJWdsOEiCncomGDXA=sbMXfY01UCirbKMBO87A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <937B2E12-0763-4CD5-9657-20012B0AE594@zipcon.net>

I'm glad you're on the mend dave.  If I was anywhere near ottowa I'd be trying to get some of your stash.

?On 11/8/19, 3:10 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Dave Dunfield via cctalk" <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org on behalf of cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

    Hello Everyone.
    
    I have had a major health incident which means that I have been unresponsive
    for several months. As I need to move in closer to town, I will be disposing
    of what remains of my collection (Things like: Altairs, Imsa, PET 2001,
    Apple II, TRS-80s, lots of S100 carts etc.)
    
    I have posted some preliminary information at:
    
       http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/sale.txt
    
    This will be updated on a regular basis.
    
    If you are interested in what happened to me, I have posted
    some details at:
    
       http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/2019.txt
    
    Dave Dunfield
    
    



From geoffr at zipcon.net  Mon Nov 11 03:17:17 2019
From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 01:17:17 -0800
Subject: Mac 3.5" floppies for anyone who wants them
In-Reply-To: <E7203E08-4B81-407F-8CDA-5B4D7269FC9F@kdbarto.org>
References: <E7203E08-4B81-407F-8CDA-5B4D7269FC9F@kdbarto.org>
Message-ID: <06E781BD-61A0-405F-A6F8-6BF472787560@zipcon.net>

Has anyone claimed these? This just came across my email.

?On 10/20/19, 11:39 AM, "cctalk on behalf of David via cctalk" <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org on behalf of cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

    A collection just came to me. These are the original disks, with whatever labels are on them.
    As a set. First come first served.
    If you are in San Diego I?ll arrange a swap with you locally.
    If remote, we can arrange shipping.
    
    1.44MB unless otherwise noted.
    Copyright years noted so version number might be determined along with what version of Mac it might support.
    
    GRAVIS Mac Blackhawk Version 1.0 (2 disk)
    ClarisWorks 4.0 (6 disks)
    ClarisWorks Small Business Solutions Pack.
    Correct Grammar For Mac Version 3.0 (2 disks)
    APS PowerTools V 1.3.1
    Mac ally Port Xpander Driver Program (copyright 1995-1997)
    Welltris, Spectrum Holobyte (800K disks, S/N 013045, 2 disks)
    MicroSoft Excel Version 4.0. (800K disks, 7 Disks, copyright 85-92)
    MicroSoft PowerPoint (800K disks, 4 disks, copyright 87-89)
    MicroSoft Mail Version 2.0 (800k?, Copyright 85-89)
    Conflict Catcher 3 (800K 1 disk)
    dantz Retrospect (2 disks, copyright 97)
    Suitcase II, (400K disk, S/N 4200-0103685 Copyright 86)
    Hayden Books - The Internet Starter Kit for Macintosh Disk. Contains:
    	Eudora 1.4
    	Fetch 2.1.1
    	InterSLIP 1.0
    	MacTCP 2.2
    	Stuffit Expander 3.03
    	TurboGopher 1.07
    Nova Development - American Handbook of Business Letters (800k?, Copyright 90)
    Aladdin Stuffit Lite (800k?, Copyright 87-92)
    Aladdin Spring Cleaning (Copyright 96)
    Connectix Ram Doubler (800k?, 1.5.1 hand written on disk, copyright 94)
    CTSNET Macintosh Internet Signup 
    
    Since my Father in law as Mac Only, I had no idea where these came from
    Windows Syquest SCSI installation Diskette 1, copyright 94
    Windows 95 Syquest Installation diskette 2
    DOS/Windows & OS/2 SCSI installation diskette 3
    
    
    



From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Mon Nov 11 10:09:52 2019
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 17:09:52 +0100 (CET)
Subject: SUN Diagnostic Executive
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1911111706180.8970@linuxserv.home>

I'm encountering some strange and severe failures on our 4/260 and 
therefore I'm looking for a dump/tape image of the Sun-4 Diagnostic 
Executive. The manuals are online but not the tape, so I hope someone has 
made a dump.

Thanks,
Christian

From allisonportable at gmail.com  Mon Nov 11 12:24:35 2019
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 13:24:35 -0500
Subject: TI994/A Power Supply
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTR9zTKPFvmWGM17tO0nXTq7kcjG3UMRvBx0q+noCULgDw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <017501d592d4$faf1f2a0$f0d5d7e0$@internode.on.net>
 <B026DD6E-17A7-4F8D-B931-259B9CB854C8@gmail.com>
 <cab484fe-b1c1-13a3-8c0e-b6990ad9e694@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTR9zTKPFvmWGM17tO0nXTq7kcjG3UMRvBx0q+noCULgDw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <153a08e8-3d2c-e310-443b-3e4e9fa3cedf@gmail.com>

On 11/11/19 2:12 AM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 1:46 PM Jules Richardson via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
>> I've got another /4A however which has a 2-pin plug on the back, and that
>> one appears to just take plain ol' 110VAC line voltage and the PSU is
>> completely internal (at least, there's a power cord with it which fits,
>> but
>> that one has a few broken keys and so I've never actually done anything
>> with it).
>>
> 
> I'm about 95% certain that it does NOT take line voltage in. It just has a
> different internal power supply assembly that only uses one of the
> low-voltage AC inputs from the external power supply instead of both. As
> far as I've ever heard, there was no 99/4 or 99/4A that did not use an
> external power supply.
> 
> If it were mine, I wouldn't even consider pluging it into line voltage
> until doing a lot more research on exactly what's inside.
> 

I have at least a few 99/4, 99/4a(black), 99/4a (beige cost reduced).

NONE of the 99/4 or 99/4a take line in.  They differ in the power supply
used internally and the brick externally.  The two pin uses a single AC
voltage brick (dc can be used of correct votlage) and the other uses two
windings.

How do the two supplies differ is one is linear and old school for
the three votlages (+12,+5, -5) and the other is a low voltage
switcher based on the 424 IC.

NEVER connect the two pin console to 100 or 230V without the
transformer.  Or you will have a fire hazard!

Allison

From cube1 at charter.net  Tue Nov 12 10:40:46 2019
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 10:40:46 -0600
Subject: Looking for documentation for VAX-11/730 ENKCC Diagnostic
In-Reply-To: <CADBZjLbAwp-an5ekmmRespVGHH3Wv8w_06aWj8X=-fSc-1b7LQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADBZjLbAwp-an5ekmmRespVGHH3Wv8w_06aWj8X=-fSc-1b7LQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b2c2ca9b-5324-74cc-6046-2cac8f783218@charter.net>

According to the Fiche I have for ENKCC version 1.2 (Diagnostic Listing)
dated September 1982 - VAX 11/730 MCT MICRO

Test 33:  Moving Inversion Test on Array (M8728 ARRAY or M8391 MCT Module)

Error 8:

"Moving Inversion failed on descending path with background of 0's  Bit
being toggled is either bit 0 or bit 1"

"If a failure occurs the address being accessed will be in LS 9 and can
be examined via EX LS 9.  The bit being toggled at the maxiumum rate
will be in WR 3 and can be examined by typing EX WR 3.  OTHER data is
not used so as to insure that the test runs as fast as possible."

On 11/9/2019 2:41 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote:
> Hi all --
> 
> The VAX-11/730 we have running here at the museum has developed a fault
> that occurs only sporadically, usually days apart.  Running the complete
> diagnostic suite for the better part of a week reveals this:
> 
> SECT  TST ERR   EXP      REC      OTHER    MSK    MODULE
> ENKCC 33  08  000000FF 000000DF   N/A    FFFFFF00 M8391  M8728
> 
> Re-running only ENKCC, this error is repeatable (though it still takes a
> couple of days for it to occur).  It helpfully points out the MCT (M8391)
> and memory boards (M8728) as possible causes; we have spare M8728s and I've
> swapped them around with no change in behavior.  I have a spare M8391 in my
> own collection but it fails in a completely different way so that's not
> much help.
> 
> I cannot find any real documentation for ENKCC so I don't know what TEST 33
> is doing, nor what ERROR 8 indicates in this context, though it seems we're
> dropping a bit somewhere :).  Anyone out there sitting on a pile of 11/730
> documentation?
> 
> Thanks as always!
> - Josh
> 

From cube1 at charter.net  Tue Nov 12 10:45:37 2019
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 10:45:37 -0600
Subject: New website has gone live
Message-ID: <e3c8cb91-7e00-9c35-482f-ca2bcf950cd5@charter.net>

After months of procrastination and work, my new website has gone live at:

https://www.computercollection.net/

It is a nearly complete makeover.  The home page also has a link to what
my site used to look like.

(Context:  The website used to be at
webpages.charter.net/thecomptuercollection .  However Charter/Spectrum
dropped support of subscriber home pages, so I had to move it to a
hosting service, which I did last year - pretty much intact as it had
been.

That then opened up the opportunity for the website to have a lot more
images and capabilities - the new website is the result.

JRJ

From derschjo at gmail.com  Tue Nov 12 12:14:39 2019
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 10:14:39 -0800
Subject: Looking for documentation for VAX-11/730 ENKCC Diagnostic
In-Reply-To: <b2c2ca9b-5324-74cc-6046-2cac8f783218@charter.net>
References: <CADBZjLbAwp-an5ekmmRespVGHH3Wv8w_06aWj8X=-fSc-1b7LQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <b2c2ca9b-5324-74cc-6046-2cac8f783218@charter.net>
Message-ID: <CADBZjLaF6gGpmxZcrhF11cbtjTdPKiQiVXZiD+W5YS_vV64tsw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 8:40 AM Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:

> According to the Fiche I have for ENKCC version 1.2 (Diagnostic Listing)
> dated September 1982 - VAX 11/730 MCT MICRO
>
> Test 33:  Moving Inversion Test on Array (M8728 ARRAY or M8391 MCT Module)
>
> Error 8:
>
> "Moving Inversion failed on descending path with background of 0's  Bit
> being toggled is either bit 0 or bit 1"
>
> "If a failure occurs the address being accessed will be in LS 9 and can
> be examined via EX LS 9.  The bit being toggled at the maxiumum rate
> will be in WR 3 and can be examined by typing EX WR 3.  OTHER data is
> not used so as to insure that the test runs as fast as possible."
>

Thanks, Jay!  Any chance of getting these scanned at some point?  To the
best of my knowledge these listings haven't been archived anywhere.

- Josh

From nico at farumdata.dk  Tue Nov 12 12:39:13 2019
From: nico at farumdata.dk (nico de jong)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 19:39:13 +0100
Subject: New website has gone live
In-Reply-To: <e3c8cb91-7e00-9c35-482f-ca2bcf950cd5@charter.net>
References: <e3c8cb91-7e00-9c35-482f-ca2bcf950cd5@charter.net>
Message-ID: <55952de0-40b1-364f-4d0a-0f919fe3ef89@farumdata.dk>

Nice !

On 2019-11-12 17:45, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote:
> After months of procrastination and work, my new website has gone live at:
>
> https://www.computercollection.net/
>
> It is a nearly complete makeover.  The home page also has a link to what
> my site used to look like.
>
> (Context:  The website used to be at
> webpages.charter.net/thecomptuercollection .  However Charter/Spectrum
> dropped support of subscriber home pages, so I had to move it to a
> hosting service, which I did last year - pretty much intact as it had
> been.
>
> That then opened up the opportunity for the website to have a lot more
> images and capabilities - the new website is the result.
>
> JRJ

From cube1 at charter.net  Tue Nov 12 14:18:30 2019
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 14:18:30 -0600
Subject: Looking for documentation for VAX-11/730 ENKCC Diagnostic
In-Reply-To: <CADBZjLaF6gGpmxZcrhF11cbtjTdPKiQiVXZiD+W5YS_vV64tsw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADBZjLbAwp-an5ekmmRespVGHH3Wv8w_06aWj8X=-fSc-1b7LQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <b2c2ca9b-5324-74cc-6046-2cac8f783218@charter.net>
 <CADBZjLaF6gGpmxZcrhF11cbtjTdPKiQiVXZiD+W5YS_vV64tsw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fe354860-9c62-f9f9-9661-fb6fbf2dc51e@charter.net>

Fiche - I have no ready way to scan them.  Hundreds (in several
different DEC groupings).  Not likely anytime soon.

On 11/12/2019 12:14 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
> 
> 
> On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 8:40 AM Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net
> <mailto:cube1 at charter.net>> wrote:
> 
>     According to the Fiche I have for ENKCC version 1.2 (Diagnostic Listing)
>     dated September 1982 - VAX 11/730 MCT MICRO
> 
>     Test 33:? Moving Inversion Test on Array (M8728 ARRAY or M8391 MCT
>     Module)
> 
>     Error 8:
> 
>     "Moving Inversion failed on descending path with background of 0's? Bit
>     being toggled is either bit 0 or bit 1"
> 
>     "If a failure occurs the address being accessed will be in LS 9 and can
>     be examined via EX LS 9.? The bit being toggled at the maxiumum rate
>     will be in WR 3 and can be examined by typing EX WR 3.? OTHER data is
>     not used so as to insure that the test runs as fast as possible."
> 
> 
> Thanks, Jay!? Any chance of getting these scanned at some point?? To the
> best of my knowledge these listings haven't been archived anywhere.
> 
> - Josh
> ?

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Tue Nov 12 16:22:30 2019
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 15:22:30 -0700
Subject: New website has gone live
In-Reply-To: <e3c8cb91-7e00-9c35-482f-ca2bcf950cd5@charter.net>
References: <e3c8cb91-7e00-9c35-482f-ca2bcf950cd5@charter.net>
Message-ID: <772291ed-3c49-d9a5-4261-566a09d2f61c@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 11/12/2019 9:45 AM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote:
> After months of procrastination and work, my new website has gone live at:
> 
> https://www.computercollection.net/
> 
> It is a nearly complete makeover.  The home page also has a link to what
> my site used to look like.
> 
> (Context:  The website used to be at
> webpages.charter.net/thecomptuercollection .  However Charter/Spectrum
> dropped support of subscriber home pages, so I had to move it to a
> hosting service, which I did last year - pretty much intact as it had
> been.
> 
> That then opened up the opportunity for the website to have a lot more
> images and capabilities - the new website is the result.
> 
> JRJ
> 

I have have a 800x600 screen res,so the NEW menu scripts don't work 
well.I use this res so I can read the read small scripts, bigger in not 
allways better.



From steven at malikoff.com  Tue Nov 12 17:15:19 2019
From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 09:15:19 +1000
Subject: Remex reader/punch PDP-11 interface board manuals on eBay
Message-ID: <f27eb1bee29fa99eba8fecdd3179204c.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>

Just wondering if anyone on the list is going after these 1973 Remex manuals for the PDP-11 interface
to their reader/punch units?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/274092453978

https://www.ebay.com/itm/274092431915

I have two of the reader-only version of this board I bought relatively cheap off eBay some years ago
and would be happy to trade or pay for a scanned copy if required. As I don't have a Remex reader/punch
it would save me bidding up the price unnecessarily.

Steve.


From useddec at gmail.com  Tue Nov 12 18:36:56 2019
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 18:36:56 -0600
Subject: Remex reader/punch PDP-11 interface board manuals on eBay
In-Reply-To: <f27eb1bee29fa99eba8fecdd3179204c.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
References: <f27eb1bee29fa99eba8fecdd3179204c.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuMCgTz5W2=w-3ORsE02Chuu8ywaXH0UesEzXDxbEJ3A+A@mail.gmail.com>

I have a few of the boards, If anyone is interested, I can find them and
post the part numbers.
I think they made a few for PDP-8s, and if so, I could have a few of those.

Paul

On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 5:15 PM Steve Malikoff via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Just wondering if anyone on the list is going after these 1973 Remex
> manuals for the PDP-11 interface
> to their reader/punch units?
>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/274092453978
>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/274092431915
>
> I have two of the reader-only version of this board I bought relatively
> cheap off eBay some years ago
> and would be happy to trade or pay for a scanned copy if required. As I
> don't have a Remex reader/punch
> it would save me bidding up the price unnecessarily.
>
> Steve.
>
>

From steven at malikoff.com  Tue Nov 12 19:03:09 2019
From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 11:03:09 +1000
Subject: Remex reader/punch PDP-11 interface board manuals on eBay
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuMCgTz5W2=w-3ORsE02Chuu8ywaXH0UesEzXDxbEJ3A+A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f27eb1bee29fa99eba8fecdd3179204c.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
 <CACwhfuMCgTz5W2=w-3ORsE02Chuu8ywaXH0UesEzXDxbEJ3A+A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a31279e5a1415e35a91714fb3dfc86a6.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>

Paul said
> I have a few of the boards, If anyone is interested, I can find them and
> post the part numbers.
> I think they made a few for PDP-8s, and if so, I could have a few of those.
>
> Paul
>
> On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 5:15 PM Steve Malikoff via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> Just wondering if anyone on the list is going after these 1973 Remex
>> manuals for the PDP-11 interface
>> to their reader/punch units?
>>
>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/274092453978
>>
>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/274092431915
>>
>> I have two of the reader-only version of this board I bought relatively
>> cheap off eBay some years ago
>> and would be happy to trade or pay for a scanned copy if required. As I
>> don't have a Remex reader/punch
>> it would save me bidding up the price unnecessarily.
>>
>> Steve.


Paul, It should be easy to differentiate: the manual for the PDP-8 version is on
bitsavers and it shows the ribbon connectors at the top left, on the board. The
PDP-11 version has them along the edge of the board as shown on the eBay pics.

Steve


From useddec at gmail.com  Tue Nov 12 19:18:45 2019
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 19:18:45 -0600
Subject: Remex reader/punch PDP-11 interface board manuals on eBay
In-Reply-To: <a31279e5a1415e35a91714fb3dfc86a6.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
References: <f27eb1bee29fa99eba8fecdd3179204c.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
 <CACwhfuMCgTz5W2=w-3ORsE02Chuu8ywaXH0UesEzXDxbEJ3A+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <a31279e5a1415e35a91714fb3dfc86a6.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuP2qm_yek08bsG2xSvx-xuM4s_Q2of9rMhif0uUio8Smg@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Steve.  I'll try to look for them tonight.

On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 7:03 PM Steve Malikoff via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Paul said
> > I have a few of the boards, If anyone is interested, I can find them and
> > post the part numbers.
> > I think they made a few for PDP-8s, and if so, I could have a few of
> those.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 5:15 PM Steve Malikoff via cctalk <
> > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Just wondering if anyone on the list is going after these 1973 Remex
> >> manuals for the PDP-11 interface
> >> to their reader/punch units?
> >>
> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/274092453978
> >>
> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/274092431915
> >>
> >> I have two of the reader-only version of this board I bought relatively
> >> cheap off eBay some years ago
> >> and would be happy to trade or pay for a scanned copy if required. As I
> >> don't have a Remex reader/punch
> >> it would save me bidding up the price unnecessarily.
> >>
> >> Steve.
>
>
> Paul, It should be easy to differentiate: the manual for the PDP-8 version
> is on
> bitsavers and it shows the ribbon connectors at the top left, on the
> board. The
> PDP-11 version has them along the edge of the board as shown on the eBay
> pics.
>
> Steve
>
>

From useddec at gmail.com  Tue Nov 12 23:37:22 2019
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 23:37:22 -0600
Subject: Remex reader/punch PDP-11 interface board manuals on eBay
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuP2qm_yek08bsG2xSvx-xuM4s_Q2of9rMhif0uUio8Smg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f27eb1bee29fa99eba8fecdd3179204c.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
 <CACwhfuMCgTz5W2=w-3ORsE02Chuu8ywaXH0UesEzXDxbEJ3A+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <a31279e5a1415e35a91714fb3dfc86a6.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
 <CACwhfuP2qm_yek08bsG2xSvx-xuM4s_Q2of9rMhif0uUio8Smg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuOUfzWB+rWw3SSn4tnYU+-uaHmQ-W8-HTwaR_f=+i1V=g@mail.gmail.com>

I have one 114143, which looks like the one in the first link, and a few
109881, one of which is a reader only.

If anyone is interested, I have them out now. Please contact me off list.

Thanks, Paul

On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 7:18 PM Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks Steve.  I'll try to look for them tonight.
>
> On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 7:03 PM Steve Malikoff via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> Paul said
>> > I have a few of the boards, If anyone is interested, I can find them and
>> > post the part numbers.
>> > I think they made a few for PDP-8s, and if so, I could have a few of
>> those.
>> >
>> > Paul
>> >
>> > On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 5:15 PM Steve Malikoff via cctalk <
>> > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Just wondering if anyone on the list is going after these 1973 Remex
>> >> manuals for the PDP-11 interface
>> >> to their reader/punch units?
>> >>
>> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/274092453978
>> >>
>> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/274092431915
>> >>
>> >> I have two of the reader-only version of this board I bought relatively
>> >> cheap off eBay some years ago
>> >> and would be happy to trade or pay for a scanned copy if required. As I
>> >> don't have a Remex reader/punch
>> >> it would save me bidding up the price unnecessarily.
>> >>
>> >> Steve.
>>
>>
>> Paul, It should be easy to differentiate: the manual for the PDP-8
>> version is on
>> bitsavers and it shows the ribbon connectors at the top left, on the
>> board. The
>> PDP-11 version has them along the edge of the board as shown on the eBay
>> pics.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>

From derschjo at gmail.com  Wed Nov 13 00:02:39 2019
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 22:02:39 -0800
Subject: Looking for documentation for VAX-11/730 ENKCC Diagnostic
In-Reply-To: <fe354860-9c62-f9f9-9661-fb6fbf2dc51e@charter.net>
References: <CADBZjLbAwp-an5ekmmRespVGHH3Wv8w_06aWj8X=-fSc-1b7LQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <b2c2ca9b-5324-74cc-6046-2cac8f783218@charter.net>
 <CADBZjLaF6gGpmxZcrhF11cbtjTdPKiQiVXZiD+W5YS_vV64tsw@mail.gmail.com>
 <fe354860-9c62-f9f9-9661-fb6fbf2dc51e@charter.net>
Message-ID: <CADBZjLYpT03OTtdtFw5D3G6TrSVrZ0Yfa_D+m+gciib+Y-SpBA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 12:18 PM Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:

> Fiche - I have no ready way to scan them.  Hundreds (in several
> different DEC groupings).  Not likely anytime soon.
>

If you're willing to send them out, the LCM would be happy to scan them and
get the scans off to Al, etc.

Thanks again,
Josh

>
>

From brain at jbrain.com  Wed Nov 13 01:25:16 2019
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 01:25:16 -0600
Subject: Question about modems
Message-ID: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>

I am the author of tcpser, a UNIX/Windows program that emulates a Hayes 
modem.

Some time ago, Chris Osborn (FozzTexx) forked a copy of my project to 
fix some bugs and he also added in some parity code, which looks to 
strip parity from the incoming serial connection (in the case that the 
serial port is set as 8N1 and the computer attached to it sends in 7E1 
or similar.

I am working to merge in all of his changes into the mainline codebase, 
but I am unclear on prpper Hayes behavior.? His Readme says:

https://github.com/FozzTexx/tcpser/commit/5f0e28bb837463e597a1daf9b3c07e56af887b7d

"I also made the modem routines automatically detect parity and ignore
it in AT commands and print out modem responses in matching
parity. Parity is *not* stripped when sending data over the
connection, which is how a real modem behaves. This may or may not be
what you want. Some servers will expect an 8 bit connection and may

not work."

Did Hayes modem really do that?? I thought most later modems self 
detected parity and speed and thus would have switched both the comm on 
the serial port and the data sent to the other side in the same parity 
(if the terminal was 7E1, the modem would configure as 7E1 and send 7 
bit data to the other side.

But, maybe real modems did as Chris notes. Anyone have guidance on 
this?? The goal of tcpser is to emulate a Hayes modem as much as 
possible, but I never really thought about mismatched parity on the 
RS232 line and how to deal with it.

Jim


-- 
Jim Brain
brain at jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com


From fulivi at tiscali.it  Wed Nov 13 02:45:57 2019
From: fulivi at tiscali.it (F.Ulivi)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 09:45:57 +0100
Subject: WANTED: iSBC-202 microcode image
Message-ID: <50c94b17-52e9-d911-a424-fc19fe034ea7@tiscali.it>

Hi everyone,

I'm planning to expand my MAME-based emulation of Intel MDS-II systems 
with the support for double-density floppy disks. In particular, I'm 
thinking of emulating the isbc202 floppy controller because its 
architecture looks very interesting. This board was based on Intel's own 
3000-series bit-slices.
A necessary step for this work is finding the image of the 4 
microprogram PROMs on the controller board. Has anyone on this list ever 
dumped these memories, please? Can you share the binary images with me? 
Of course, I'm going to properly credit you in the emulator sources. 
AFAIK this would be the first emulation of a Intel 3000 system.

A side question: do you happen to know if the Intel CROMIS assembler for 
3000 series has ever been preserved somewhere on the Net? The manual 
says it was provided to user as a set of FORTRAN IV sources.

Thanks in advance for your help.

--F.Ulivi

From nw.johnson at ieee.org  Wed Nov 13 05:31:05 2019
From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 06:31:05 -0500
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <3640cef5-3d42-d95c-23e1-8827df9964dd@ieee.org>

I actually have an original Hayes 300 modem. Would it be any use if I 
could set it up for a a test, or would it need another genuine Hayes one 
to talk to for what you need?

cheers,

Nigel


On 13/11/2019 02:25, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote:
> I am the author of tcpser, a UNIX/Windows program that emulates a 
> Hayes modem.
>
> Some time ago, Chris Osborn (FozzTexx) forked a copy of my project to 
> fix some bugs and he also added in some parity code, which looks to 
> strip parity from the incoming serial connection (in the case that the 
> serial port is set as 8N1 and the computer attached to it sends in 7E1 
> or similar.
>
> I am working to merge in all of his changes into the mainline 
> codebase, but I am unclear on prpper Hayes behavior.? His Readme says:
>
> https://github.com/FozzTexx/tcpser/commit/5f0e28bb837463e597a1daf9b3c07e56af887b7d 
>
>
> "I also made the modem routines automatically detect parity and ignore
> it in AT commands and print out modem responses in matching
> parity. Parity is *not* stripped when sending data over the
> connection, which is how a real modem behaves. This may or may not be
> what you want. Some servers will expect an 8 bit connection and may
>
> not work."
>
> Did Hayes modem really do that?? I thought most later modems self 
> detected parity and speed and thus would have switched both the comm 
> on the serial port and the data sent to the other side in the same 
> parity (if the terminal was 7E1, the modem would configure as 7E1 and 
> send 7 bit data to the other side.
>
> But, maybe real modems did as Chris notes. Anyone have guidance on 
> this?? The goal of tcpser is to emulate a Hayes modem as much as 
> possible, but I never really thought about mismatched parity on the 
> RS232 line and how to deal with it.
>
> Jim
>
>
  

-- 
Nigel Johnson
MSc., MIEEE
VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU

Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!


You can reach me by voice on Skype:  TILBURY2591

If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday

This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way.
    Nigel Johnson <nw.johnson at ieee.org>

     
Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message




From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com  Wed Nov 13 07:47:03 2019
From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 10:47:03 -0300
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <1f05cd6e-ebec-1bc5-b614-1fac174f024f@gmail.com>

Jim, its a long time I don't use it, but I've used other configurations 
beyond 8N1 and I remember when you put the modem in 7E1 it mirrored the 
configuration of the other side. If you had a vax with a 2400 7E1 port, 
you gotta have in the terminal 2400 7E1

So, you gotta match the configuration of the other side

Hope that helps!

Em 13/11/2019 04:25, Jim Brain via cctalk escreveu:
> I am the author of tcpser, a UNIX/Windows program that emulates a Hayes 
> modem.
> 
> Some time ago, Chris Osborn (FozzTexx) forked a copy of my project to 
> fix some bugs and he also added in some parity code, which looks to 
> strip parity from the incoming serial connection (in the case that the 
> serial port is set as 8N1 and the computer attached to it sends in 7E1 
> or similar.
> 
> I am working to merge in all of his changes into the mainline codebase, 
> but I am unclear on prpper Hayes behavior.? His Readme says:
> 
> https://github.com/FozzTexx/tcpser/commit/5f0e28bb837463e597a1daf9b3c07e56af887b7d 
> 
> 
> "I also made the modem routines automatically detect parity and ignore
> it in AT commands and print out modem responses in matching
> parity. Parity is *not* stripped when sending data over the
> connection, which is how a real modem behaves. This may or may not be
> what you want. Some servers will expect an 8 bit connection and may
> 
> not work."
> 
> Did Hayes modem really do that?? I thought most later modems self 
> detected parity and speed and thus would have switched both the comm on 
> the serial port and the data sent to the other side in the same parity 
> (if the terminal was 7E1, the modem would configure as 7E1 and send 7 
> bit data to the other side.
> 
> But, maybe real modems did as Chris notes. Anyone have guidance on 
> this?? The goal of tcpser is to emulate a Hayes modem as much as 
> possible, but I never really thought about mismatched parity on the 
> RS232 line and how to deal with it.
> 
> Jim
> 
> 

-- 
---8<---Corte Aqui---8<---
https://www.tabalabs.com.br
https://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Wed Nov 13 08:17:32 2019
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 06:17:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1911130616040.27352@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>

On Wed, 13 Nov 2019, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote:

> Did Hayes modem really do that?? I thought most later modems self detected 
> parity and speed and thus would have switched both the comm on the serial 
> port and the data sent to the other side in the same parity (if the terminal 
> was 7E1, the modem would configure as 7E1 and send 7 bit data to the other 
> side.
>
Jim, I'd try reaching out to Dale Heatherington - he wrote the firmware 
for the Smartmodem line. http://www.wa4dsy.com/robot/home/about

At one point either he or Dennis Hayes had source code to the Hayes 1200B 
firmware online, but I can't find it any longer. :(

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From allisonportable at gmail.com  Wed Nov 13 08:40:36 2019
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 09:40:36 -0500
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1911130616040.27352@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1911130616040.27352@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <8bdc46ab-e9a2-0e4b-4b55-24f9cc3aabe3@gmail.com>

On 11/13/19 9:17 AM, geneb via cctalk wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Nov 2019, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> Did Hayes modem really do that?? I thought most later modems self
>> detected parity and speed and thus would have switched both the comm
>> on the serial port and the data sent to the other side in the same
>> parity (if the terminal was 7E1, the modem would configure as 7E1 and
>> send 7 bit data to the other side.

No, well maybe a few of the winmodems did.

Generally all the modems I have (ISA,S100 and external serial) you need
to set the baud rate, parity and word length to match the modem (is it
has at or similar protocal) and also to match the other end (usualy the
same).

My experience is fairly recent as WSTD.Cm still support dial-in terminal
or SLIP.

there are also synchronous modems, different critter.

Allison

> Jim, I'd try reaching out to Dale Heatherington - he wrote the firmware
> for the Smartmodem line. http://www.wa4dsy.com/robot/home/about
> 
> At one point either he or Dennis Hayes had source code to the Hayes
> 1200B firmware online, but I can't find it any longer. :(
> 
> g.
> 


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Wed Nov 13 09:59:32 2019
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 15:59:32 -0000
Subject: Printers in Manchester UK
Message-ID: <016c01d59a3b$57392b10$05ab8130$@gmail.com>

Folks,

 

Any one got any interest in any dot-matrix printers. Got a Panasonic wide
carriage, DEC narrow carriage, and a Tandy DMP200..

 

Dave Wade

G4UGM & EA7KAE

 


From jon at jonworld.com  Wed Nov 13 10:00:26 2019
From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 16:00:26 +0000
Subject: Printers in Manchester UK
In-Reply-To: <016c01d59a3b$57392b10$05ab8130$@gmail.com>
References: <016c01d59a3b$57392b10$05ab8130$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEOZr+2mwLxPjBKzxnHjpZK=NEWcafBVZBwiOtEKVoc3vymO4Q@mail.gmail.com>

I actually had a dream last night about a wide-format dot-matrix printer
coming into my life.

On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 3:59 PM Dave Wade via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> Folks,
>
>
>
> Any one got any interest in any dot-matrix printers. Got a Panasonic wide
> carriage, DEC narrow carriage, and a Tandy DMP200..
>
>
>
> Dave Wade
>
> G4UGM & EA7KAE
>
>
>
>

-- 
-Jon
+44 7792 149029

From brain at jbrain.com  Wed Nov 13 11:17:07 2019
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 11:17:07 -0600
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <1f05cd6e-ebec-1bc5-b614-1fac174f024f@gmail.com>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <1f05cd6e-ebec-1bc5-b614-1fac174f024f@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a7d5e8ac-3899-bc77-af54-5ccd9e9ae5f5@jbrain.com>

On 11/13/2019 7:47 AM, Alexandre Souza via cctalk wrote:
> Jim, its a long time I don't use it, but I've used other 
> configurations beyond 8N1 and I remember when you put the modem in 7E1 
> it mirrored the configuration of the other side. If you had a vax with 
> a 2400 7E1 port, you gotta have in the terminal 2400 7E1

Yeah, I agree with your statement, but I am wondering what happened if 
you "mismatched" things.? Did the AT commands continue to work, but the 
raw data was sent out to the other side, or did it silently try to adapt?

Jim



From cube1 at charter.net  Wed Nov 13 11:21:04 2019
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 11:21:04 -0600
Subject: Looking for documentation for VAX-11/730 ENKCC Diagnostic
In-Reply-To: <CADBZjLYpT03OTtdtFw5D3G6TrSVrZ0Yfa_D+m+gciib+Y-SpBA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADBZjLbAwp-an5ekmmRespVGHH3Wv8w_06aWj8X=-fSc-1b7LQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <b2c2ca9b-5324-74cc-6046-2cac8f783218@charter.net>
 <CADBZjLaF6gGpmxZcrhF11cbtjTdPKiQiVXZiD+W5YS_vV64tsw@mail.gmail.com>
 <fe354860-9c62-f9f9-9661-fb6fbf2dc51e@charter.net>
 <CADBZjLYpT03OTtdtFw5D3G6TrSVrZ0Yfa_D+m+gciib+Y-SpBA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <29c585e5-cbfe-6b50-d706-bcd51c873e57@charter.net>

Sure.  Works for me.  There are, in all, likely well over 1000 fiche,
maybe even more than 2000.  Many fiche have multiple documents on them
(e.g. module documents), some have more than one fiche to a document
(e.g. diagnostic listings).

All told, in their boxes and envelopes, 25lbs or more, so maybe 30-35lbs
shipped.  The first two listed below are in wooden boxes, the second two
in DEC-supplied plastic "index card" type boxes.  The DEC-O-LOGs are in
list DEC-supplied plastic flip front boxes, and the listings are in
plain brown envelopes.

FYI, if I recall correctly these originated from the Univ. of Wisconsin
Instrumentation Systems Center (ISC).  I know that I obtained them via
the UW SWAP (Suplus With A Purpose) program at least from a paperwork
standpoint, but I don't know that I recorded exactly where they originated.

Some questions:

1)  Would you want me to sort/curate them first, or just send the boxes?
    (i.e., check for duplicates, sort, etc.  Quite a few hours of work -
    Probably more than 40.)

2a) I am assuming you would send them back to me at some point.
However, I also have to say that if the scans are good, I could not
expect to find a better home for them than the LCM.  Would you want to
keep them at the LCM?

2b) How long might it take you if you want multiple sets and expect to
return them.  If really short, I could send them all.  If longer, maybe
one set at a time.)

3)  I have several sets.  Which of them would you want to scan?

All are from the DEC Maintenance Documentation Service (MDS)

LEVAX - 000016  (VAXen and associated peripherals)  Circa 1982-1986
   Probably around 600 fiche.
   Index, Bulletins, Hardware Manuals, Ill. Parts Breakdown,
   PM (not sure what this is, only one: RA60 to RL01/02,
   Diagnostics (VAXen and associated peripherals)
   Wirelist (DR11-B only),
   Technical Information,  Module Assembly (pwr supplies, cards, etc.)
   A bunch of update bulletins (would take time to go through and
   insert/replace in their proper homes - though these may be the
   replaced ones removed - hard to tell.)

PDP11 - 001926  (PDP11 and associated peripherals)  Circa 1980-1985
   Probably around 500 fiche
   A few Ill. Parts Breakdown,
   Almost all the rest are diagnostics

I wonder if the above two boxes were merged or partially merged.

HTERM - 000146  (Hardcopy terminals?)   Circa 1974-1985
   Maybe 100-200 fiche
   Index, Bulletins, Hardware Manuals, Ill. Parts Breakdown,
   Diagnostics, Wire Lists, Technical Information,
   Module Assembly, Misc "General" documents,
   Update bulletins (much like the Vax one)

VTERM - 000171 (Video Terminals?)  Circa 1974-1985
   Probably 100 or so fiche.
   A couple of odd manuals up front (KW11L, DR11-K, A/D cards,
   TM & TU Diagnostics, Index, Bulletins, Hardware manuals,
   Ill. Parts Breakdown, Diagnostics, Wirelist,
   Technical Information, Module Assembly,
   Misc "General" documents, Update bulletins.

MFDOL - 17  MDS DEC-O-LOG  Less than 50 fiche
MFDOL - 18  MDS DEC-O-LOG  Less than 50 fiche

(DEC-O-LOGS appear to be mostly field change order documents and spare
parts lists.)


AH-H159C-SE  VAX/VMS V3.0 SRC LST MCRF (About 100 Fiche)
AH-N471A-SE  VAX/VMS V3.1 SRC LST MCRF (About 25 fiche)
AH-P762A-SE  VAX/VMS V3.2 SRC LST MCRF (About 25 fiche)
AH-V324A-SE  VAX/VMS V3.3 SRC LST MCRF (About 25 fiche)
AH-W742A-SE  VAX/VMS V3.4 SRC LST MCRF (About 25 fiche)
AH-Y852A-SE  VAX/VMS V3.5 SRC LST MCRF (About 25 fiche)
AH-CK92A-SE  VAX/VMS V3.7 SRC LST MCRF (Less than 25 fiche)
AH-FY84A-SE  VAX/VMS V4.2 SRC LST MCRF (About 100 Fiche)
AH-GZ64A-SE  VAX/VMS V4.3 SRC LST MCRF (About 25 fiche)
AH-HP48A-SE  VAX/VMS V4.4 SRC LST MCRF (About 200 Fiche)




On 11/13/2019 12:02 AM, Josh Dersch wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 12:18 PM Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net
> <mailto:cube1 at charter.net>> wrote:
> 
>     Fiche - I have no ready way to scan them.? Hundreds (in several
>     different DEC groupings).? Not likely anytime soon.
> 
> 
> If you're willing to send them out, the LCM would be happy to scan them
> and get the scans off to Al, etc.
> 
> Thanks again,
> Josh
> 
> 

From brain at jbrain.com  Wed Nov 13 11:39:06 2019
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 11:39:06 -0600
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <3640cef5-3d42-d95c-23e1-8827df9964dd@ieee.org>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <3640cef5-3d42-d95c-23e1-8827df9964dd@ieee.org>
Message-ID: <5a99b693-9795-5d43-b923-c95f24f38978@jbrain.com>

On 11/13/2019 5:31 AM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote:
> I actually have an original Hayes 300 modem. Would it be any use if I 
> could set it up for a a test, or would it need another genuine Hayes 
> one to talk to for what you need?

I looked at the SmartModem 300.? It looks like it completely detected 
the speed and parity internal to the unit.? If you have a manual or a 
link ot one to validate, I think that would suffice. If it did do that, 
then it would have reconfigured itself to match the terminal and thus 
all communication would be in the same format (8N1, 7E1, etc).


I did a quick check for an online manual, but my Google-fu is weak today.

Jim


From johnl at johnlabovitz.com  Wed Nov 13 12:02:06 2019
From: johnl at johnlabovitz.com (John Labovitz)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 12:02:06 -0600
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <a7d5e8ac-3899-bc77-af54-5ccd9e9ae5f5@jbrain.com>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <1f05cd6e-ebec-1bc5-b614-1fac174f024f@gmail.com>
 <a7d5e8ac-3899-bc77-af54-5ccd9e9ae5f5@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <B3B6B9F5-A816-4F5E-A098-43F827C98939@johnlabovitz.com>

On Nov 13, 2019, at 11:17 AM, Jim Brain via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 11/13/2019 7:47 AM, Alexandre Souza via cctalk wrote:
>> Jim, its a long time I don't use it, but I've used other configurations beyond 8N1 and I remember when you put the modem in 7E1 it mirrored the configuration of the other side. If you had a vax with a 2400 7E1 port, you gotta have in the terminal 2400 7E1
> 
> Yeah, I agree with your statement, but I am wondering what happened if you "mismatched" things.  Did the AT commands continue to work, but the raw data was sent out to the other side, or did it silently try to adapt?

I used Smartmodem 300?s and 1200?s a lot as a kid dialing up to BBSes in the 80s (also ran a BBS myself). I  recall that the modem itself ? eg, the AT command interpretation ? automatically handled 7E1/8N1/etc., but that?s as far as it went. If I was dialing up a non-8N1 BBS (rare, but they did exist), I had to set my terminal program accordingly. I think I also had to set the speed (although later modems would respond with the speed as an ASCII number in the CONNECT message).

Of course, I might be completely misremembering.

?John


From fmc at reanimators.org  Wed Nov 13 12:03:25 2019
From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 10:03:25 -0800
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <8bdc46ab-e9a2-0e4b-4b55-24f9cc3aabe3@gmail.com>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1911130616040.27352@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <8bdc46ab-e9a2-0e4b-4b55-24f9cc3aabe3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4E6F25D3-ECCC-48CF-8DE9-CD7EF76CD1BC@reanimators.org>

On Nov 13, 2019, at 6:40, allison wrote:
> 
> On 11/13/19 9:17 AM, geneb via cctalk wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 Nov 2019, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote:
>> 
>>> Did Hayes modem really do that?  I thought most later modems self
>>> detected parity and speed and thus would have switched both the comm
>>> on the serial port and the data sent to the other side in the same
>>> parity (if the terminal was 7E1, the modem would configure as 7E1 and
>>> send 7 bit data to the other side.
> 
> No, well maybe a few of the winmodems did.
> 
> Generally all the modems I have (ISA,S100 and external serial) you need
> to set the baud rate, parity and word length to match the modem (is it
> has at or similar protocal) and also to match the other end (usualy the
> same).

I remember old dumb modems that just turned 1s and 0s into different 
frequencies on the audio channel.  Think Bell 103 here, and acoustically
coupled modems where your fingers do the dialing.  No concept of parity
in the modem, it was just another bit passed through.

Anyway, maybe this is an authoritative reference:

http://bitsavers.org/pdf/hayes/Hayes_44-012_Technical_Reference_For_Hayes_Modem_Users_1993.pdf

Section 1.4, page 1-53 (PDF page 64 of 160):

(begin copy-pasta)

Modem commands begin with an AT prefix that gets the modem's attention.
The speed and character format at which the DTE sends this prefix tells the
modem the speed and format for responding to commands, and at which
speed to attempt the connection.

(end copy-pasta)

Similar language in the July 1991 version of the manual (also on bitsavers
in that directory).

-Frank McConnell


From fritzm at fritzm.org  Wed Nov 13 12:06:42 2019
From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 10:06:42 -0800
Subject: Looking for documentation for VAX-11/730 ENKCC Diagnostic
In-Reply-To: <29c585e5-cbfe-6b50-d706-bcd51c873e57@charter.net>
References: <CADBZjLbAwp-an5ekmmRespVGHH3Wv8w_06aWj8X=-fSc-1b7LQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <b2c2ca9b-5324-74cc-6046-2cac8f783218@charter.net>
 <CADBZjLaF6gGpmxZcrhF11cbtjTdPKiQiVXZiD+W5YS_vV64tsw@mail.gmail.com>
 <fe354860-9c62-f9f9-9661-fb6fbf2dc51e@charter.net>
 <CADBZjLYpT03OTtdtFw5D3G6TrSVrZ0Yfa_D+m+gciib+Y-SpBA@mail.gmail.com>
 <29c585e5-cbfe-6b50-d706-bcd51c873e57@charter.net>
Message-ID: <0A041028-6063-48E8-B914-C5FE7EF92559@fritzm.org>


> On Nov 13, 2019, at 9:21 AM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> Sure.  Works for me.  There are, in all, likely well over 1000 fiche...
> 3)  I have several sets.  Which of them would you want to scan?
> 
> On 11/13/2019 12:02 AM, Josh Dersch wrote:
>> 
>> If you're willing to send them out, the LCM would be happy to scan them
>> and get the scans off to Al, etc.

When I was working through some issues on my 11/45 last year, Jay tracked down several DEC-O-LOGs in these fiche that I had not been able to find anywhere else.  I would be pretty psyched to see otherwise missing DEC-O-LOGs and diagnostic listings scanned!

	?FritzM.



From nw.johnson at ieee.org  Wed Nov 13 12:13:18 2019
From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 13:13:18 -0500
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <5a99b693-9795-5d43-b923-c95f24f38978@jbrain.com>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <3640cef5-3d42-d95c-23e1-8827df9964dd@ieee.org>
 <5a99b693-9795-5d43-b923-c95f24f38978@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <0e6c30f7-0801-8371-15b7-8bb7acf5dc05@ieee.org>

Not much in the manual.? I browsed it looking for anything about data 
bits and stop bits. Nothing.

p1-2: ' Commands given to the Smartmodem must be ASCII coded at baud 
rates between 110 baud and 1200 baud. Once 'on-line', any code at any 
speed from 0 to 300 baud may be used.'

p 9-1 'Do not send any data to the Smartmodem while it is in local 
command mode unless the data is intended to be a command. Random data 
can confuse the baud rate detector and the command decoder giving 
unpredicatable results.'

That is al lI can find i nthe manual.

cheers,

Nigel


On 13/11/2019 12:39, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote:
> On 11/13/2019 5:31 AM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote:
>> I actually have an original Hayes 300 modem. Would it be any use if I 
>> could set it up for a a test, or would it need another genuine Hayes 
>> one to talk to for what you need?
>
> I looked at the SmartModem 300.? It looks like it completely detected 
> the speed and parity internal to the unit.? If you have a manual or a 
> link ot one to validate, I think that would suffice. If it did do 
> that, then it would have reconfigured itself to match the terminal and 
> thus all communication would be in the same format (8N1, 7E1, etc).
>
>
> I did a quick check for an online manual, but my Google-fu is weak today.
>
> Jim
>
  

-- 
Nigel Johnson
MSc., MIEEE
VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU

Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!


You can reach me by voice on Skype:  TILBURY2591

If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday

This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way.
    Nigel Johnson <nw.johnson at ieee.org>

     
Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message




From jsw at ieee.org  Wed Nov 13 12:17:37 2019
From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 12:17:37 -0600
Subject: AED WINC08
In-Reply-To: <CAE1er55Hx5s584DVCo9RW8C=AD5Bq0sZtafqLtuR1J-QjoD+xw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE1er55Hx5s584DVCo9RW8C=AD5Bq0sZtafqLtuR1J-QjoD+xw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <34076051-68df-5ccc-196d-dc04e6366756@ieee.org>

On 11/11/19 12:27 AM, Eric Moore via cctech wrote:
> Hello, I have a working AED WINC08 drive, which is a winchester drive
> emulated to look like an RL02, along with the qbus controller card.
>
> https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_aedbrochurJan82_2107642/page/n1
>
> The winchester drive itself is a fujitsu M2302B. One of the disks (it shows
> up as 2 10MB volumes in RT-11) is having write issues. How can I find a
> replacement disk drive in working order? The 2302b has a shugart compatible
> interface, so should any shugart compatible 8" winchester drive work in the
> aed winc08 rl02 emulator?
>
> What other options do I have to attach a winchester drive to an 11/03 for
> use in rt-11? I have an RL02 I have never hooked up, do the disk packs hold
> up well over time? How hard is it to clean and align an 8" winchester drive
> to try and address the write issue?
>
> Thank you,
>
> -Eric

In my (pre) historic use of products similar to this one, it was rare to swap the vendors drive with a completely different drive. The controllers, their electrical interfaces and recording formats were tightly coupled to the disk drives implemented.

My suggestion would be to look for a QBus SCSI Controller like the Emulex UC07 or  Dilog SQ739, though both are a bit pricey.   These open up a large number of drives to use and later versions of RT11 support the MSCP protocol the controllers emulate.  The use of the SCSI2SD drive emulator gives even more flexibility through the use of microSD cards.  Google around for both.

I have an pair of RL02 drives.  I keep them clean and power them up for short periods regularly.  You need to be alert to potential issues with electrolytic capacitors drying out and causing problems in the power supplies and circuit boards of all devices of from this era.  See http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?72247-Dismantle-an-RL02-pack for a recent discussion  and pictures of some of the material in the packs decaying over time.

     Jerry


From jsw at ieee.org  Wed Nov 13 12:17:37 2019
From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 12:17:37 -0600
Subject: AED WINC08
In-Reply-To: <CAE1er55Hx5s584DVCo9RW8C=AD5Bq0sZtafqLtuR1J-QjoD+xw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE1er55Hx5s584DVCo9RW8C=AD5Bq0sZtafqLtuR1J-QjoD+xw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <34076051-68df-5ccc-196d-dc04e6366756@ieee.org>

On 11/11/19 12:27 AM, Eric Moore via cctech wrote:
> Hello, I have a working AED WINC08 drive, which is a winchester drive
> emulated to look like an RL02, along with the qbus controller card.
>
> https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_aedbrochurJan82_2107642/page/n1
>
> The winchester drive itself is a fujitsu M2302B. One of the disks (it shows
> up as 2 10MB volumes in RT-11) is having write issues. How can I find a
> replacement disk drive in working order? The 2302b has a shugart compatible
> interface, so should any shugart compatible 8" winchester drive work in the
> aed winc08 rl02 emulator?
>
> What other options do I have to attach a winchester drive to an 11/03 for
> use in rt-11? I have an RL02 I have never hooked up, do the disk packs hold
> up well over time? How hard is it to clean and align an 8" winchester drive
> to try and address the write issue?
>
> Thank you,
>
> -Eric

In my (pre) historic use of products similar to this one, it was rare to swap the vendors drive with a completely different drive. The controllers, their electrical interfaces and recording formats were tightly coupled to the disk drives implemented.

My suggestion would be to look for a QBus SCSI Controller like the Emulex UC07 or  Dilog SQ739, though both are a bit pricey.   These open up a large number of drives to use and later versions of RT11 support the MSCP protocol the controllers emulate.  The use of the SCSI2SD drive emulator gives even more flexibility through the use of microSD cards.  Google around for both.

I have an pair of RL02 drives.  I keep them clean and power them up for short periods regularly.  You need to be alert to potential issues with electrolytic capacitors drying out and causing problems in the power supplies and circuit boards of all devices of from this era.  See http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?72247-Dismantle-an-RL02-pack for a recent discussion  and pictures of some of the material in the packs decaying over time.

     Jerry


From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Nov 13 12:36:56 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 10:36:56 -0800
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <ba9b7168-4d50-d9b4-db96-b108ab090b96@sydex.com>

There are other "oddball" combinations, such as 8E1 and 8O1, which sends
a 9-bit data frame.  You can see datasheets on some UARTs as well as MCU
UARTs that support the 9 bit packet.

Also, don't/doesn't TDD (5 level code) use 5E2 or some such.  Same for
Telex/TWX.

--Chuck

From nw.johnson at ieee.org  Wed Nov 13 12:41:08 2019
From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 13:41:08 -0500
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <ba9b7168-4d50-d9b4-db96-b108ab090b96@sydex.com>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <ba9b7168-4d50-d9b4-db96-b108ab090b96@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <ca8a1b34-2101-cf10-18e5-d6de861f36bd@ieee.org>


On 13/11/2019 13:36, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> There are other "oddball" combinations, such as 8E1 and 8O1, which sends
> a 9-bit data frame.  You can see datasheets on some UARTs as well as MCU
> UARTs that support the 9 bit packet.
According to the diagram of the Smartmodem there is no UART, the 1488s 
and 1489s go directly to the Z80.
> Also, don't/doesn't TDD (5 level code) use 5E2 or some such.  Same for
> Telex/TWX.

Not sure 5 level code (ITU #2) ever had parity, but to confuse the issue 
even further, there was a 1.5 stop bit option too, for mechanical machines!

cheers,

NIgel


>
> --Chuck

  

-- 
Nigel Johnson
MSc., MIEEE
VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU

Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!


You can reach me by voice on Skype:  TILBURY2591

If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday

This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way.
    Nigel Johnson <nw.johnson at ieee.org>

     
Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message




From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Nov 13 13:10:15 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 11:10:15 -0800
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <ca8a1b34-2101-cf10-18e5-d6de861f36bd@ieee.org>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <ba9b7168-4d50-d9b4-db96-b108ab090b96@sydex.com>
 <ca8a1b34-2101-cf10-18e5-d6de861f36bd@ieee.org>
Message-ID: <523b0aa8-6690-c620-f25c-12a7a5c0c6e0@sydex.com>

On 11/13/19 10:41 AM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote:
> 
> On 13/11/2019 13:36, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>> There are other "oddball" combinations, such as 8E1 and 8O1, which sends
>> a 9-bit data frame.? You can see datasheets on some UARTs as well as MCU
>> UARTs that support the 9 bit packet.
> According to the diagram of the Smartmodem there is no UART, the 1488s
> and 1489s go directly to the Z80.
>> Also, don't/doesn't TDD (5 level code) use 5E2 or some such.? Same for
>> Telex/TWX.
> 
> Not sure 5 level code (ITU #2) ever had parity, but to confuse the issue
> even further, there was a 1.5 stop bit option too, for mechanical machines!

Strange that--not even a DART?  Well, I was always a Racal Vadic guy
back in the day of 300 bps.

Also, 134.5 for selectric machines.

--Chuck





From fmc at reanimators.org  Wed Nov 13 13:39:40 2019
From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 11:39:40 -0800
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <ca8a1b34-2101-cf10-18e5-d6de861f36bd@ieee.org>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <ba9b7168-4d50-d9b4-db96-b108ab090b96@sydex.com>
 <ca8a1b34-2101-cf10-18e5-d6de861f36bd@ieee.org>
Message-ID: <8DDF76DA-4DB9-4F6D-A6A9-8EDD07167E34@reanimators.org>

On Nov 13, 2019, at 10:41, Nigel Johnson wrote:
> 
> 
> On 13/11/2019 13:36, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>> There are other "oddball" combinations, such as 8E1 and 8O1, which sends
>> a 9-bit data frame.  You can see datasheets on some UARTs as well as MCU
>> UARTs that support the 9 bit packet.
> According to the diagram of the Smartmodem there is no UART, the 1488s and 1489s go directly to the Z80.

Somebody has to do speed and word format sensing, to pull off something
like the Smartmodem.

Hayes Technical Reference pointed at earlier has a table of supported 
data word formats in section A.1.1, page A-2.

Start bits, data bits, parity, stop bits
1, 7, even/odd, 1 or more
1, 7, none, 2
1, 7, mark/space, 1 or more
1, 8, none, 1 or more

That?s all!

-Frank McConnell


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed Nov 13 13:54:22 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 11:54:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <3640cef5-3d42-d95c-23e1-8827df9964dd@ieee.org>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <3640cef5-3d42-d95c-23e1-8827df9964dd@ieee.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911131150350.13891@shell.lmi.net>

And, more than one different model!

A bunch of yuears ago, Joe Campbell ("C Programmer's Guide To Serialo 
Communication", "RS232 Solution", etc, NOT the PBS Joe Campbell) told me 
that he was doing some consulting for Hayes, about setting up the standard 
for "Hayes Compatible"; it seemed that not all of their modems did things 
the same way!   I don't know WHICH things needed to be adjusted.


On Wed, 13 Nov 2019, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote:

> I actually have an original Hayes 300 modem. Would it be any use if I could 
> set it up for a a test, or would it need another genuine Hayes one to talk to 
> for what you need?
>
> cheers,
>
> Nigel

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Wed Nov 13 14:11:49 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 13:11:49 -0700
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <b990efe2-ac3f-6577-28c3-7db197aa58e2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

The following is based on my limited understanding.  I could easily be 
wrong.  Please correct me if I am.

On 11/13/19 12:25 AM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote:
> Some time ago, Chris Osborn (FozzTexx) forked a copy of my project to 
> fix some bugs and he also added in some parity code, which looks to 
> strip parity from the incoming serial connection (in the case that the 
> serial port is set as 8N1 and the computer attached to it sends in 7E1 
> or similar.

Are you sure that the parity stripping (for lack of a better 
description) was meant to translate things between modems?  I would 
speculate that it was to transition from serial communications which 
inherently depend on those settings to TCP connections (raw / cooked / 
NVT / etc.) which inherently don't use those settings.

> I am working to merge in all of his changes into the mainline codebase, 
> but I am unclear on prpper Hayes behavior.  His Readme says:
> 
> "I also made the modem routines automatically detect parity and ignore it 
> in AT commands and print out modem responses in matching parity. Parity 
> is *not* stripped when sending data over the connection, which is how a 
> real modem behaves. This may or may not be what you want. Some servers 
> will expect an 8 bit connection and may not work."
> 
> Did Hayes modem really do that?  I thought most later modems self 
> detected parity and speed and thus would have switched both the comm on 
> the serial port and the data sent to the other side in the same parity 
> (if the terminal was 7E1, the modem would configure as 7E1 and send 7 
> bit data to the other side.

My limited understanding is that modems were largely transparent to 
serial communications.  In that once the modems established the 
connection, they blindly passed data back and forth, much like a null 
modem would do.  As such, devices on either end of the serial link would 
need to be configured identically to be able to communicate with each other.

This makes me think that traditional modems would NOT alter ~> translate 
communications parameters as data went through the modem.

> But, maybe real modems did as Chris notes.

I'm guessing that modems did detect what settings were in use so that 
they could match them to properly recognize and understand modem (AT) 
commands.  But I suspect that's the extent of what the detection was 
used for.

> Anyone have guidance on this?  The goal of tcpser is to emulate a Hayes 
> modem as much as possible, but I never really thought about mismatched 
> parity on the RS232 line and how to deal with it.




-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed Nov 13 14:31:29 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 12:31:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <b990efe2-ac3f-6577-28c3-7db197aa58e2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <b990efe2-ac3f-6577-28c3-7db197aa58e2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911131224390.13891@shell.lmi.net>

On Wed, 13 Nov 2019, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> Are you sure that the parity stripping (for lack of a better description) was 
> meant to translate things between modems?  I would speculate that it was to 
> transition from serial communications which inherently depend on those 
> settings to TCP connections (raw / cooked / NVT / etc.) which inherently 
> don't use those settings.

Perhaps.
But, we thought that modems were FOREVER.  We weren't thinking ahead to 
communication other than POTS (Plain Old Telephone System).
"WOW!  the new modems are 50% faster!  They are close to the theoretical 
maximum for copper wire!"

Parity, stop bits etc. were essential for error detection, ease of 
parsing, and slow physical devices.  A single bit error in a file 
transfer could be disastrous.   But, stuff like commands to the modem 
didn't need much of that, and needed to be able to communicate in spite of 
wrong parameters.  It made sense for a modem to recognize a command, even 
with wrong parity, etc.

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Wed Nov 13 15:16:14 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 14:16:14 -0700
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911131224390.13891@shell.lmi.net>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <b990efe2-ac3f-6577-28c3-7db197aa58e2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911131224390.13891@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <5a98da41-2dc3-e3a8-6162-ac519e194e12@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 11/13/19 1:31 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> But, stuff like commands to the modem didn't need much of that, and 
> needed to be able to communicate in spite of wrong parameters.  It made 
> sense for a modem to recognize a command, even with wrong parity, etc.

Okay....

Now I'm thinking that there are really two phases / modes of 
communications:  1) computer to modem commands, and 2) computer to 
computer via modem connection data.

I think my previous statement applies to #2.  I can see the value in #1 
being more liberal in what it recognizes and accepts.

But, I'd still be surprised if the following would work for #2.

[A]---(7E2)---{modem}==={modem}---(8N1)---[B]

Would A and B be able to transfer data between each other with different 
(local) settings?



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From nw.johnson at ieee.org  Wed Nov 13 15:41:41 2019
From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 16:41:41 -0500
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <5a98da41-2dc3-e3a8-6162-ac519e194e12@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <b990efe2-ac3f-6577-28c3-7db197aa58e2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911131224390.13891@shell.lmi.net>
 <5a98da41-2dc3-e3a8-6162-ac519e194e12@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <d8492e0c-a856-b5ed-f770-91b1b72ecea1@ieee.org>

No. While each end might be able to communicate with the local modem in 
command mode using different parameters, when they are in connected mode 
the modems will not convert anything, just pass the exact format along. 
So if one end is expecting 7E2 and the other is sending 8N1 there will 
be a 50% chance that parity errors will be received.

cheers

Nigel


On 13/11/2019 16:16, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> On 11/13/19 1:31 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>> But, stuff like commands to the modem didn't need much of that, and 
>> needed to be able to communicate in spite of wrong parameters.? It 
>> made sense for a modem to recognize a command, even with wrong 
>> parity, etc.
>
> Okay....
>
> Now I'm thinking that there are really two phases / modes of 
> communications:? 1) computer to modem commands, and 2) computer to 
> computer via modem connection data.
>
> I think my previous statement applies to #2.? I can see the value in 
> #1 being more liberal in what it recognizes and accepts.
>
> But, I'd still be surprised if the following would work for #2.
>
> [A]---(7E2)---{modem}==={modem}---(8N1)---[B]
>
> Would A and B be able to transfer data between each other with 
> different (local) settings?
>
>
>
  

-- 
Nigel Johnson
MSc., MIEEE
VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU

Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!


You can reach me by voice on Skype:  TILBURY2591

If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday

This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way.
    Nigel Johnson <nw.johnson at ieee.org>

     
Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message




From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Wed Nov 13 16:02:51 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 15:02:51 -0700
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <d8492e0c-a856-b5ed-f770-91b1b72ecea1@ieee.org>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <b990efe2-ac3f-6577-28c3-7db197aa58e2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911131224390.13891@shell.lmi.net>
 <5a98da41-2dc3-e3a8-6162-ac519e194e12@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <d8492e0c-a856-b5ed-f770-91b1b72ecea1@ieee.org>
Message-ID: <fa307e7e-5b5c-7fff-99c6-423f7e358ffe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 11/13/19 2:41 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote:
> No. While each end might be able to communicate with the local modem in 
> command mode using different parameters, when they are in connected mode 
> the modems will not convert anything, just pass the exact format along. 
> So if one end is expecting 7E2 and the other is sending 8N1 there will 
> be a 50% chance that parity errors will be received.

That's what I thought.  Thank you for the confirmation.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From allisonportable at gmail.com  Wed Nov 13 18:02:13 2019
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 19:02:13 -0500
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <5a98da41-2dc3-e3a8-6162-ac519e194e12@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <b990efe2-ac3f-6577-28c3-7db197aa58e2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911131224390.13891@shell.lmi.net>
 <5a98da41-2dc3-e3a8-6162-ac519e194e12@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <f7f9831a-612d-d86a-6f34-93caaba67753@gmail.com>

On 11/13/19 4:16 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> On 11/13/19 1:31 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>> But, stuff like commands to the modem didn't need much of that, and
>> needed to be able to communicate in spite of wrong parameters.? It
>> made sense for a modem to recognize a command, even with wrong parity,
>> etc.
> 
> Okay....
> 
> Now I'm thinking that there are really two phases / modes of
> communications:? 1) computer to modem commands, and 2) computer to
> computer via modem connection data.
> 
> I think my previous statement applies to #2.? I can see the value in #1
> being more liberal in what it recognizes and accepts.
> 
> But, I'd still be surprised if the following would work for #2.
> 
> [A]---(7E2)---{modem}==={modem}---(8N1)---[B]
> 
> Would A and B be able to transfer data between each other with different
> (local) settings?
> 
> 
> 

The case presented is an true corner case.  Usually modems can be set
for rate, bits, and parity that matches the target system.  AS modem
became more sophisticated (26/33/56k) they were easily set and I just a
few I have.  Older 300/1200/2400 baud modems like DEC DF02/03 had
switch settings likely others did too.  The 9600 were generally smart.

Those that used AT command set were very setable as there was usually
large menu of options.

There were exceptions "winmodems" that were only hardware port
and the system did all the work in software.  Generally flaky
to the max.  DEC DFxx series had their own non AT command set.

What is forgotten is that many of the modem programs could swich
parameters on the fly after carrier detect went true.

Like RS232/432 signaling the art and science is getting lost
to time and age.  I'd bet more than half here never used a
modem or have not in more than 15-20 years.

Allison

From brain at jbrain.com  Wed Nov 13 18:08:19 2019
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 18:08:19 -0600
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <d8492e0c-a856-b5ed-f770-91b1b72ecea1@ieee.org>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <b990efe2-ac3f-6577-28c3-7db197aa58e2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911131224390.13891@shell.lmi.net>
 <5a98da41-2dc3-e3a8-6162-ac519e194e12@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <d8492e0c-a856-b5ed-f770-91b1b72ecea1@ieee.org>
Message-ID: <28add96d-dad5-8b50-a400-ea7538f7f4ad@jbrain.com>

On 11/13/2019 3:41 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote:
> No. While each end might be able to communicate with the local modem 
> in command mode using different parameters, when they are in connected 
> mode the modems will not convert anything, just pass the exact format 
> along. So if one end is expecting 7E2 and the other is sending 8N1 
> there will be a 50% chance that parity errors will be received.
>
> cheers
>
> Nigel
>
>
> On 13/11/2019 16:16, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
>> On 11/13/19 1:31 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>>> But, stuff like commands to the modem didn't need much of that, and 
>>> needed to be able to communicate in spite of wrong parameters.? It 
>>> made sense for a modem to recognize a command, even with wrong 
>>> parity, etc.
>>
>> Okay....
>>
>> Now I'm thinking that there are really two phases / modes of 
>> communications:? 1) computer to modem commands, and 2) computer to 
>> computer via modem connection data.
>>
>> I think my previous statement applies to #2.? I can see the value in 
>> #1 being more liberal in what it recognizes and accepts.
>>
>> But, I'd still be surprised if the following would work for #2.
>>
>> [A]---(7E2)---{modem}==={modem}---(8N1)---[B]
>>
>> Would A and B be able to transfer data between each other with 
>> different (local) settings?
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Jumping back in here:

Initially, tcpser's goal was to emulate enough of the "Hayes" command 
set so as to bridge old BBS applications so they could be once again 
used without modifying them and trying to make them aware of the 
Internet.? Over time, that mandate meant adding in support for S 
registers and & commands and such, since apps used those.

However, the actual line functionality of the modem was never attempted 
to be emulated, as doing so would defeat the purpose of the app.

Initially, I assumed everyone would set their BBS to 8N1, so as to 
maximize the utility of the connection (8 bit clean, etc.).

But, now, I have a Teletype Model 43 here, and it only does 7 bit ASCII. 
Fozztexx's mod helps, but it only cleans up parity while in command 
mode, which means I can atdt jammingsignal.com, but then when I connect, 
I can't log onto that Telnet BBS (that's the catchall name for such 
things) because parity gets in the way.

To be as useful as possible, I think the utility should detect parity in 
command mode, but then switch the entire data stream to that 
configuration, both command mode and data mode.

The alternative (since a PC can't sniff the serial stream like the Hayes 
did), is to allow parameters to set the specific parity and number of 
stop bits.? And, I think I'll do both.? Without parity and stop bits, 
sniff parity.? With it, lock in the parity and don't sniff.? That way, 
if folks want the purist behavior, they do tcpser -s1200,N,8,1 and 
sniffing can just do -s 1200

Jim

-- 
Jim Brain
brain at jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com


From sales at elecplus.com  Wed Nov 13 18:25:18 2019
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 18:25:18 -0600
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <f7f9831a-612d-d86a-6f34-93caaba67753@gmail.com>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <b990efe2-ac3f-6577-28c3-7db197aa58e2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911131224390.13891@shell.lmi.net>
 <5a98da41-2dc3-e3a8-6162-ac519e194e12@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <f7f9831a-612d-d86a-6f34-93caaba67753@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004701d59a81$fed8d6e0$fc8a84a0$@com>

 

The case presented is an true corner case.  Usually modems can be set
for rate, bits, and parity that matches the target system.  AS modem
became more sophisticated (26/33/56k) they were easily set and I just a
few I have.  Older 300/1200/2400 baud modems like DEC DF02/03 had
switch settings likely others did too.  The 9600 were generally smart.

Those that used AT command set were very setable as there was usually
large menu of options.

There were exceptions "winmodems" that were only hardware port
and the system did all the work in software.  Generally flaky
to the max.  DEC DFxx series had their own non AT command set.

What is forgotten is that many of the modem programs could swich
parameters on the fly after carrier detect went true.

Like RS232/432 signaling the art and science is getting lost
to time and age.  I'd bet more than half here never used a
modem or have not in more than 15-20 years.

Allison

And here my problem is that I have the old modems, but I can't test them because I no longer have a land line. Is there any way to test an internal or external modem without anything except broadband or cellular connections? I know I can't test the acoustic modems, but I was hoping to be able to test internal ISA and PCI, as well as external modems from 300 baud to 56k. Perhaps there is some inexpensive gizmo available?

Cindy


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed Nov 13 19:07:48 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 17:07:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <004701d59a81$fed8d6e0$fc8a84a0$@com>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <b990efe2-ac3f-6577-28c3-7db197aa58e2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911131224390.13891@shell.lmi.net>
 <5a98da41-2dc3-e3a8-6162-ac519e194e12@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <f7f9831a-612d-d86a-6f34-93caaba67753@gmail.com>
 <004701d59a81$fed8d6e0$fc8a84a0$@com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911131654270.13891@shell.lmi.net>

On Wed, 13 Nov 2019, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote:
> And here my problem is that I have the old modems, but I can't test them 
> because I no longer have a land line. Is there any way to test an 
> internal or external modem without anything except broadband or cellular 
> connections? I know I can't test the acoustic modems, but I was hoping 
> to be able to test internal ISA and PCI, as well as external modems from 
> 300 baud to 56k. Perhaps there is some inexpensive gizmo available?

A "telephone line simulator".
In some cases, you might be able to just connect them, with a power 
supply.
One set to "Originate" and one to "Answer", of course.
But, you also want a "dial tone".
And, if you want to test answering capabilities, then you also need a 
"ring simulator", which is 90VAC at 20Hz.  (often a lot of tolerance)


What do you need to do to use an acoustic modem with a cellphone?
You can get a "retro" handset for a cellphone, that will fit the rubber 
cups, but, will it work?



From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Wed Nov 13 19:13:51 2019
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 01:13:51 +0000
Subject: WANTED: iSBC-202 microcode image
In-Reply-To: <50c94b17-52e9-d911-a424-fc19fe034ea7@tiscali.it>
References: <50c94b17-52e9-d911-a424-fc19fe034ea7@tiscali.it>
Message-ID: <BYAPR01MB5608D0E7252820D889E3A2EDA3710@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>

The 3000 parts were bit slice processors. There were only a few instructions involved in there execution. Much of the action was on in the code as you'd think of a typical uP. In other words, there were not specific I/O instructions causing various actions. In may cases, just having the processors access some specif address cause a I/O related action to take place. Such actions would not show up in a dump of the ROMs code. The processor mostly provided timing and in some cases, the transfer of data. This was typical bit slice programming. In order to understand what was happening, you'd need to both look at the code and study the boards hardware along with it.
It would be better to emulate the specified commands that were sent from the multibus ports.
Dwight

________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of F.Ulivi via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2019 12:45 AM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: WANTED: iSBC-202 microcode image

Hi everyone,

I'm planning to expand my MAME-based emulation of Intel MDS-II systems
with the support for double-density floppy disks. In particular, I'm
thinking of emulating the isbc202 floppy controller because its
architecture looks very interesting. This board was based on Intel's own
3000-series bit-slices.
A necessary step for this work is finding the image of the 4
microprogram PROMs on the controller board. Has anyone on this list ever
dumped these memories, please? Can you share the binary images with me?
Of course, I'm going to properly credit you in the emulator sources.
AFAIK this would be the first emulation of a Intel 3000 system.

A side question: do you happen to know if the Intel CROMIS assembler for
3000 series has ever been preserved somewhere on the Net? The manual
says it was provided to user as a set of FORTRAN IV sources.

Thanks in advance for your help.

--F.Ulivi

From sales at elecplus.com  Wed Nov 13 19:22:38 2019
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 19:22:38 -0600
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911131654270.13891@shell.lmi.net>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <b990efe2-ac3f-6577-28c3-7db197aa58e2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911131224390.13891@shell.lmi.net>
 <5a98da41-2dc3-e3a8-6162-ac519e194e12@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <f7f9831a-612d-d86a-6f34-93caaba67753@gmail.com>
 <004701d59a81$fed8d6e0$fc8a84a0$@com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911131654270.13891@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <004901d59a8a$012ae390$0380aab0$@com>



-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin
via cctalk
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2019 7:08 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: RE: Question about modems

On Wed, 13 Nov 2019, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote:
> And here my problem is that I have the old modems, but I can't test them 
> because I no longer have a land line. Is there any way to test an 
> internal or external modem without anything except broadband or cellular 
> connections? I know I can't test the acoustic modems, but I was hoping 
> to be able to test internal ISA and PCI, as well as external modems from 
> 300 baud to 56k. Perhaps there is some inexpensive gizmo available?

A "telephone line simulator".
In some cases, you might be able to just connect them, with a power 
supply.
One set to "Originate" and one to "Answer", of course.
But, you also want a "dial tone".
And, if you want to test answering capabilities, then you also need a 
"ring simulator", which is 90VAC at 20Hz.  (often a lot of tolerance)


What do you need to do to use an acoustic modem with a cellphone?
You can get a "retro" handset for a cellphone, that will fit the rubber 
cups, but, will it work?

A young gent (about 22 yrs old) reminded me of HyperTerminal on XP. Since I
have stacks of old working XP laptops, I can simply connect 2 modems to each
other via a POTS phone cable, attach each modem via serial cable to a
different laptop, and set one to Listen and the other to Answer via
HyperTerminal. If I want to transfer files, I could use PuTTy, which also
runs on XP. Seems like that should take care of both send and receive on
both modems? Now to make a simple batch file that can automate the process,
since I don't want to do everything manually for 50+ modems!

I only have 2 acoustic modems, so I will set them aside for now. I used to
have a "telephone tester" machine from Radio Shack, but it disappeared many
years ago. I do have an old TAB book of "telephone projects" and another for
test equipment that I could build, but that would be a lot of trouble to
only test about 50 items.

Cindy



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed Nov 13 19:49:01 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 17:49:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <004901d59a8a$012ae390$0380aab0$@com>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <b990efe2-ac3f-6577-28c3-7db197aa58e2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911131224390.13891@shell.lmi.net>
 <5a98da41-2dc3-e3a8-6162-ac519e194e12@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <f7f9831a-612d-d86a-6f34-93caaba67753@gmail.com>
 <004701d59a81$fed8d6e0$fc8a84a0$@com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911131654270.13891@shell.lmi.net>
 <004901d59a8a$012ae390$0380aab0$@com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911131737540.13891@shell.lmi.net>

> A "telephone line simulator".

On Wed, 13 Nov 2019, Electronics Plus wrote:
> A young gent (about 22 yrs old) reminded me of HyperTerminal on XP. Since I
> have stacks of old working XP laptops, I can simply connect 2 modems to each
> other via a POTS phone cable, attach each modem via serial cable to a
> different laptop, and set one to Listen and the other to Answer via
> HyperTerminal. If I want to transfer files, I could use PuTTy, which also
> runs on XP. Seems like that should take care of both send and receive on
> both modems? Now to make a simple batch file that can automate the process,
> since I don't want to do everything manually for 50+ modems!
>
> I only have 2 acoustic modems, so I will set them aside for now. I used to
> have a "telephone tester" machine from Radio Shack, but it disappeared many
> years ago. I do have an old TAB book of "telephone projects" and another for
> test equipment that I could build, but that would be a lot of trouble to
> only test about 50 items.

Not enough to justify investing in specialized test gear.  OTOH, you can 
have fun with it.   Small children seem to enjoy having "toy phones" that 
actually work, etc.   When I was teaching my dog to tell me when the phone 
rang, I had a button in my pocket, . . .

Testing DTMF tones, etc. is more involved, but if you hear it attempting 
to "dial", that's probably close enough.
"Dial tone" is a little more involved, and a thorough test should include 
whether it detects it properly, etc.
Going "off hook" on an incoming call requires creating a ring signal 
(90VAC at 20 Hz), . . .

But, being up-front with your customers about the extent of the testing 
means no ill will if not all functions and capabilities are tested.



From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Wed Nov 13 20:28:55 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 19:28:55 -0700
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <004701d59a81$fed8d6e0$fc8a84a0$@com>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <b990efe2-ac3f-6577-28c3-7db197aa58e2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911131224390.13891@shell.lmi.net>
 <5a98da41-2dc3-e3a8-6162-ac519e194e12@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <f7f9831a-612d-d86a-6f34-93caaba67753@gmail.com>
 <004701d59a81$fed8d6e0$fc8a84a0$@com>
Message-ID: <14b06c42-8081-99b0-dcdf-e1142a4fd4c3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 11/13/19 5:25 PM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote:
> And here my problem is that I have the old modems, but I can't test 
> them because I no longer have a land line.

~chuckle~

> Is there any way to test an internal or external modem without anything 
> except broadband or cellular connections?

It depends if "without anything" is referring to "no additional phone 
line / service from an external 3rd party" or "nothing at all added to 
the mix".

> I know I can't test the acoustic modems, but I was hoping to be able 
> to test internal ISA and PCI, as well as external modems from 300 
> baud to 56k. Perhaps there is some inexpensive gizmo available?

It should be quite possible to test slower modems.  However, faster 
speeds, 14.4 / 19.2 / 28.8 / 33.6 / 56, will be more problematic to test.

People are reliably getting modems to connect across VoIP using lossless 
CODECs, i.e. ULAW / ALAW.

This does take some effort to (initially) set up.  But it should be 
quite serviceable once it is set up.

I think that some companies make Analog Terminal Adapters (ATA) that 
have two ports, one would connect to each modem, and any number dialed 
would call (ring) the other port.  I /think/ that Grandstream used to 
make a Handy Tone that did this.  Again, this will take some configuration.

I routinely (almost daily) see @Level29_BBS talking about dialing in 
across VoIP.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From bhilpert at shaw.ca  Wed Nov 13 20:34:12 2019
From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 18:34:12 -0800
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <004901d59a8a$012ae390$0380aab0$@com>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <b990efe2-ac3f-6577-28c3-7db197aa58e2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911131224390.13891@shell.lmi.net>
 <5a98da41-2dc3-e3a8-6162-ac519e194e12@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <f7f9831a-612d-d86a-6f34-93caaba67753@gmail.com>
 <004701d59a81$fed8d6e0$fc8a84a0$@com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911131654270.13891@shell.lmi.net>
 <004901d59a8a$012ae390$0380aab0$@com>
Message-ID: <CDCB80BF-1F6E-4B64-A1FB-C07D01A436C7@shaw.ca>

On 2019-Nov-13, at 5:22 PM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote:
> ... I can simply connect 2 modems to each
> other via a POTS phone cable, attach each modem via serial cable to a
> different laptop, and set one to Listen and the other to Answer via
> HyperTerminal.

This will work for some modems, not for others. At the electrical level there were two techniques used for transmitting the signal onto the phone line.

- One technique used a transformer to couple to the phone line, thus the modem actually injected audio-frequency (AF) energy onto the phone-line. The simple back-to-back POTS cable connection may work for modems using this technique. (I have successfully done this.)

- The other technique used opto-isolators to couple to the phone-line. They did not provide energy to the line, they AF-modulated the phone-line central-office-supplied DC current. For modems using this technique, you have to supply a line current. The old 9V battery in series in the loop trick might work but I don't recall whether I've tried it.

(Result of experiments and internal observations with several modems years ago, where I was attempting as you suggest and wondered why it worked with some modems and not others. I think I was trying to do local data transfer with macs that had internal modems but no 232 port.)


From sales at elecplus.com  Wed Nov 13 21:11:24 2019
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 21:11:24 -0600
Subject: Xref
Message-ID: <004a01d59a99$32fec990$98fc5cb0$@com>

Does anyone have a copy of this, or something similar? Prefer digital
format, if possible.

 

Jameco Part number 159791 $29.95 61140 SEMICONDUCTOR CROSS REFERENCE on
CD-ROM Enhanced Version A complete guide to semiconductor replacement and
substitutions from the makers of PHOTOFACT(R) service documentation. More
than 490,000 part numbers, type numbers, and other identifying numbers
listed. Includes part numbers for the United States, Europe, and the Far
East. Covers all major types of semiconductors: bipolar transistors, FETs,
diodes, rectifiers, ICs, SCRs, LEDs, modules, and thermal devices.
Replacement for NTE, ECG, Radio Shack, and TCE - four cross references in
one! Up-to-date list of original equipment manufacturers. The most
comprehensive replacement data available for engineers, technicians, and all
those who work with semiconductors. Minimum System Requirements: Windows
95(R) or higher and 60 MB of free disk space C 1998 Howard W. Sams. All
Rights Reserved. http://www.hwsams.com

 

Thanks!

 

Cindy Croxton

 


From fozztexx at fozztexx.com  Wed Nov 13 21:36:35 2019
From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 19:36:35 -0800
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911131654270.13891@shell.lmi.net>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <b990efe2-ac3f-6577-28c3-7db197aa58e2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911131224390.13891@shell.lmi.net>
 <5a98da41-2dc3-e3a8-6162-ac519e194e12@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <f7f9831a-612d-d86a-6f34-93caaba67753@gmail.com>
 <004701d59a81$fed8d6e0$fc8a84a0$@com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911131654270.13891@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <88F29023-1585-4191-9C8C-6CD2729074D9@fozztexx.com>

On Nov 13, 2019, at 5:07 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> What do you need to do to use an acoustic modem with a cellphone?
> You can get a "retro" handset for a cellphone, that will fit the rubber cups, but, will it work?

Yes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQqWHLZjOjA

--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com


From aek at bitsavers.org  Wed Nov 13 23:01:37 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 21:01:37 -0800
Subject: Xref
In-Reply-To: <004a01d59a99$32fec990$98fc5cb0$@com>
References: <004a01d59a99$32fec990$98fc5cb0$@com>
Message-ID: <0c723e9f-716e-4d12-1ed9-6ee5d36aa0f2@bitsavers.org>

https://www.biblio.com/cart.php?bid=9512792

On 11/13/19 7:11 PM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote:
> A complete guide to semiconductor replacement and
> substitutions from the makers of PHOTOFACT(R) service documentation.



From sales at elecplus.com  Wed Nov 13 23:39:20 2019
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 23:39:20 -0600
Subject: Xref
In-Reply-To: <0c723e9f-716e-4d12-1ed9-6ee5d36aa0f2@bitsavers.org>
References: <004a01d59a99$32fec990$98fc5cb0$@com>
 <0c723e9f-716e-4d12-1ed9-6ee5d36aa0f2@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <005501d59aad$ddcb5e10$99621a30$@com>

Thanks Al!

The archived version is available for free here https://archive.org/details/ArcherSemiconductorReferenceGuide1984

Cindy

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow via cctalk
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2019 11:02 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Xref

https://www.biblio.com/cart.php?bid=9512792

On 11/13/19 7:11 PM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote:
> A complete guide to semiconductor replacement and
> substitutions from the makers of PHOTOFACT(R) service documentation.



From sales at elecplus.com  Wed Nov 13 23:54:03 2019
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 23:54:03 -0600
Subject: Freebies (documentation) France and online
Message-ID: <005601d59aaf$eb8a6e90$c29f4bb0$@com>

http://matthieu.benoit.free.fr/databooks.htm Looks like a fellow in France
wants to give away/trade a lot of documentation.

 

https://www.intel-vintage.info/

https://www.intel-vintage.info/intelotherresources.htm

Note the Copyright says no copyright, take what you need freely. There is a
LOT of interesting stuff on this site.

 

http://www.ebyte.it/library/refs/SoftwareOnlineTexts.html

 

http://gordonbell.azurewebsites.net/digital/decmuseum.htm more DEC stuff
than I have ever seen together.

 

Cindy Croxton


From couryhouse at aol.com  Thu Nov 14 04:09:59 2019
From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 10:09:59 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: ge  first transistors
References: <1514147181.92888.1573726199245.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1514147181.92888.1573726199245@mail.yahoo.com>


g11? for ana log? and g11a? for? digital and pulse
we have a G11A? new in box unused? with cellophane surround available? respond off list

From couryhouse at aol.com  Thu Nov 14 04:38:16 2019
From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 10:38:16 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: ge  first transistors
In-Reply-To: <1514147181.92888.1573726199245@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1514147181.92888.1573726199245.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1514147181.92888.1573726199245@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1259982096.91982.1573727896196@mail.yahoo.com>

correction my email is couryhouse at aol.com reply to me direct? thanks? Ed#
In a message dated 11/14/2019 3:10:09 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:


g11? transistor for analog? and g11a transistor for? digital and pulsewe have a G11A? transistor new in box unused? with cellophane surround available? respond off list

From guykd at optusnet.com.au  Thu Nov 14 05:49:41 2019
From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 22:49:41 +1100
Subject: ge  first transistors
In-Reply-To: <1514147181.92888.1573726199245@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1514147181.92888.1573726199245.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20191114224941.012eb898@mail.optusnet.com.au>

At 10:09 AM 14/11/2019 +0000, ED SHARPE wrote:
>
>g11?for analog?and g11a?for?digital and pulse
>we have a G11A? new in box unused? with cellophane surround available? respond off list


Pretty cool. Some pics down a way in this page: 
   https://sites.google.com/site/transistorhistory/Home/us-semiconductor-manufacturers/general-electric-history

From cube1 at charter.net  Thu Nov 14 08:17:33 2019
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 08:17:33 -0600
Subject: WANTED: iSBC-202 microcode image
In-Reply-To: <50c94b17-52e9-d911-a424-fc19fe034ea7@tiscali.it>
References: <50c94b17-52e9-d911-a424-fc19fe034ea7@tiscali.it>
Message-ID: <a54389eb-21d1-4fe3-18eb-24ad29abb748@charter.net>

The iSBC 202 is actually two boards:  a controller, PSA 1000467 and a
interface board PWA 1001036.

There are 4 PROMS on the controller/channel board, intel D3604 (512x8),
labelled A10: 52-722, A11: 52-729, A12: 52-741 and A13: 52-735 .  I
presume these are what you are looking for.

Unfortunately, my MiniPro knows D3604 not, so I'd presumably have to
engage my Arduino Mega or some such to read them, unless the pinout
matches something that the minipro does know about.

I do not have CROMIS.

If nobody else has them, and after other advice you decide you want to
pursue this, I could put it on my list of things to do over the next
month or so.

JRJ

On 11/13/2019 2:45 AM, F.Ulivi via cctalk wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> 
> I'm planning to expand my MAME-based emulation of Intel MDS-II systems
> with the support for double-density floppy disks. In particular, I'm
> thinking of emulating the isbc202 floppy controller because its
> architecture looks very interesting. This board was based on Intel's own
> 3000-series bit-slices.
> A necessary step for this work is finding the image of the 4
> microprogram PROMs on the controller board. Has anyone on this list ever
> dumped these memories, please? Can you share the binary images with me?
> Of course, I'm going to properly credit you in the emulator sources.
> AFAIK this would be the first emulation of a Intel 3000 system.
> 
> A side question: do you happen to know if the Intel CROMIS assembler for
> 3000 series has ever been preserved somewhere on the Net? The manual
> says it was provided to user as a set of FORTRAN IV sources.
> 
> Thanks in advance for your help.
> 
> --F.Ulivi
> 

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Thu Nov 14 08:22:47 2019
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 09:22:47 -0500
Subject: ge  first transistors
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20191114224941.012eb898@mail.optusnet.com.au>
References: <1514147181.92888.1573726199245.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <3.0.6.32.20191114224941.012eb898@mail.optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <0AA11DDF-E592-4292-A175-97F4522D2659@comcast.net>



> On Nov 14, 2019, at 6:49 AM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> At 10:09 AM 14/11/2019 +0000, ED SHARPE wrote:
>> 
>> g11 for analog and g11a for digital and pulse
>> we have a G11A  new in box unused  with cellophane surround available  respond off list
> 
> 
> Pretty cool. Some pics down a way in this page: 
>   https://sites.google.com/site/transistorhistory/Home/us-semiconductor-manufacturers/general-electric-history

Neat.  Speaking of old semiconductor history, I'd love to see again the description (data sheet or magazine article, I'm no longer sure) that my father had, about FETs made from copper oxide.  Possibly before the 1940s, I don't remember.  I've had no luck tracking any of this down.

	paul


From jim at photojim.ca  Thu Nov 14 08:41:18 2019
From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 08:41:18 -0600
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <f7f9831a-612d-d86a-6f34-93caaba67753@gmail.com>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <b990efe2-ac3f-6577-28c3-7db197aa58e2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911131224390.13891@shell.lmi.net>
 <5a98da41-2dc3-e3a8-6162-ac519e194e12@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <f7f9831a-612d-d86a-6f34-93caaba67753@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <106c01d59af9$932d4750$b987d5f0$@photojim.ca>



-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of allison via cctalk
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2019 6:02 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Question about modems


> Like RS232/432 signaling the art and science is getting lost to time and age.  I'd bet more than half here never used a modem or have not in more than 15-20 years.

That's probably true, but I maintain my nostalgia for modems and have a bunch, including real Hayes 300 and 1200 Smartmodems, a SupraFAXmodem v.32bis and v.FC (the former was my first fast modem; the latter is the one I really wanted in the day :) but I can't find a way to upgrade it to v.34), and a nice pile of USR v.Everything modems including an ISA internal, a few v.90 and one v.92 external, and a new-in-shrink HST 14.4.  (HST works super well on modern VoIP lines compared to v.32bis and v.34, I find.)

I even have a dialup console to one of the Linux boxes on my network.  Can't say I need it.  It's a bit of an indulgence.  But it's there, and it works.

I have a ham radio callsign too (VE5EV) and one of these years I intend to really experiment with packet radio, and eventually, AX25 TCP/IP networking over radio using packet modems.

Jim


From jim at photojim.ca  Thu Nov 14 08:43:59 2019
From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 08:43:59 -0600
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911131654270.13891@shell.lmi.net>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <b990efe2-ac3f-6577-28c3-7db197aa58e2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911131224390.13891@shell.lmi.net>
 <5a98da41-2dc3-e3a8-6162-ac519e194e12@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <f7f9831a-612d-d86a-6f34-93caaba67753@gmail.com>
 <004701d59a81$fed8d6e0$fc8a84a0$@com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911131654270.13891@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <10bc01d59af9$f34865c0$d9d93140$@photojim.ca>



-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin
via cctalk
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2019 7:08 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: RE: Question about modems

>What do you need to do to use an acoustic modem with a cellphone?
>You can get a "retro" handset for a cellphone, that will fit the rubber
cups, but, will it work?

I have one of those handsets, and somewhere in the basement, a Radio Shack
acoustic modem, so I could actually try it.

I expect it would work, but would suffer from a lot of line noise because of
how modern telephony works.

My network routes calls via UMTS, not VoLTE.  I've never done a VoLTE call,
so perhaps it would be better.

Jim



From alan at alanlee.org  Thu Nov 14 08:51:38 2019
From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 09:51:38 -0500
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1911130616040.27352@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1911130616040.27352@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <7ec31bb33fbcdb0ee1b8acc1c4e91763@alanlee.org>

On 2019-11-13 09:17, geneb via cctalk wrote:

> Jim, I'd try reaching out to Dale Heatherington...

Dale generally keeps to himself and rarely talks shop outside of the 
context of telecommunication discussions - which he also avoids.  I've 
asked him if he would like to speak at VCF-SE a couple times but he's 
always replied he doesn't do public speaking.  The few times I've 
brought up modems, he's (maybe coyly) pointed out at this point in time, 
others would be a far better resource.  He has started to attend the 
show at least.  I've seen him at the last 2 VCF-SEs.  But he never 
interacted with any of the 4-5 telecom/modem exhibitors to my knowledge.

-Alan

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Nov 14 09:00:49 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 07:00:49 -0800
Subject: ge first transistors
In-Reply-To: <0AA11DDF-E592-4292-A175-97F4522D2659@comcast.net>
References: <1514147181.92888.1573726199245.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <3.0.6.32.20191114224941.012eb898@mail.optusnet.com.au>
 <0AA11DDF-E592-4292-A175-97F4522D2659@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <35dac780-ca77-1d9c-7568-298d0acee0bf@sydex.com>

On 11/14/19 6:22 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:

> Neat.  Speaking of old semiconductor history, I'd love to see again the description (data sheet or magazine article, I'm no longer sure) that my father had, about FETs made from copper oxide.  Possibly before the 1940s, I don't remember.  I've had no luck tracking any of this down.
> 

Julius Edgar Lilienfeld filed a patent in 1925 (US 1745175)

Also US 1900018 and an interesting derivative US US1877140.

Also, Lilienfeld was the inventor of the electrolytic capacitor.

I'm not sure about the exact copper-oxide FET article, it's not a dead
topic; see: https://aip.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/1.3589374

I'm surprised that Brattain, Shockley et al. are regarded in higher
regard by the history writers, particularly because they were aware of
Lilienfeld's early work and worded their patent to avoid prior art issues.

I'd ask one of today's historians which transistor type occurs in the
greatest numbers today--I suspect it's FET by a long shot over BJT.

--Chuck


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Thu Nov 14 09:08:09 2019
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 10:08:09 -0500
Subject: ge first transistors
In-Reply-To: <35dac780-ca77-1d9c-7568-298d0acee0bf@sydex.com>
References: <1514147181.92888.1573726199245.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <3.0.6.32.20191114224941.012eb898@mail.optusnet.com.au>
 <0AA11DDF-E592-4292-A175-97F4522D2659@comcast.net>
 <35dac780-ca77-1d9c-7568-298d0acee0bf@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <D87BD603-3FD0-4023-B289-3AC17C1AA84F@comcast.net>



> On Nov 14, 2019, at 10:00 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On 11/14/19 6:22 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> Neat.  Speaking of old semiconductor history, I'd love to see again the description (data sheet or magazine article, I'm no longer sure) that my father had, about FETs made from copper oxide.  Possibly before the 1940s, I don't remember.  I've had no luck tracking any of this down.
>> 
> 
> Julius Edgar Lilienfeld filed a patent in 1925 (US 1745175)

Nice.  Thank you!

> Also US 1900018 and an interesting derivative US US1877140.
> 
> Also, Lilienfeld was the inventor of the electrolytic capacitor.
> 
> I'm not sure about the exact copper-oxide FET article, it's not a dead
> topic; see: https://aip.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/1.3589374
> 
> I'm surprised that Brattain, Shockley et al. are regarded in higher
> regard by the history writers, particularly because they were aware of
> Lilienfeld's early work and worded their patent to avoid prior art issues.
> 
> I'd ask one of today's historians which transistor type occurs in the
> greatest numbers today--I suspect it's FET by a long shot over BJT.

By a mile, for sure, given that LSI integrated circuits are mostly CMOS FET transistors.  Then again, for the first several decades bipolar transistors were pretty much all you'd see.

There's a familiar pattern here.  X does something first, but that discovery doesn't make a real impact on history.  Y does it some time later, and that one does start a new historic trend.  So Y gets most of the credit and X is either a footnote or is generallly forgotten.

Some examples: 
X = Leif Erikson, Y = Columbus (travel to America).
X = Hanso Idzerda, Y = Edwin Armstrong (FM radio).

	paul


From alan at alanlee.org  Thu Nov 14 09:17:06 2019
From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 10:17:06 -0500
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <28add96d-dad5-8b50-a400-ea7538f7f4ad@jbrain.com>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <b990efe2-ac3f-6577-28c3-7db197aa58e2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911131224390.13891@shell.lmi.net>
 <5a98da41-2dc3-e3a8-6162-ac519e194e12@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <d8492e0c-a856-b5ed-f770-91b1b72ecea1@ieee.org>
 <28add96d-dad5-8b50-a400-ea7538f7f4ad@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <291fa55ce98393ff386f363f826e06c4@alanlee.org>


I think you may be over thinking this.  I suppose a system could send a 
bit-stream where the data bits + any parity bits != 8 or the parity bit 
isn't in the trailing MSB position.  However, for simplification lets 
consider only that case.  A modem will always set the local line coding 
to 8,N,1.  Any bytes received in command mode will be AND'd with 0x7f to 
strip any parity bits before being interpreted.  A modem could 
optionally detect and reconstruct the local line parity scheme for the 
purpose of stuffing the 8th bit MSB for the command responses (eg 'OK' 
etc) on the local line.  But it will always transfer the entire 8-bit 
word period to the remote end in data mode - unmodified.

I suppose you could have 7,N,x however the MSB of the 8-bit word period 
would be a stop bit and would transfer through the modulated 
transmission the same way - correctly.  The number of stop bits only 
affect the transmission side of characters on the local line - in that 
it adds extra padding between bytes to mitigate timing mis-alignment.  
My rule of thumb for RTL UARTs is transmitters should always idle for 
1.5 stop periods while receivers should always begin the start bit 
search after .5 bit-periods after the 8th data bit period.  I suppose 
this could cause problems when a line rate is 100% saturated - but so 
could oscillator mismatch over time.

My advise is always set the MCU line coding to 8,N,1 (or preferably 
1.5), strip the MSB in command RX, and manually re-add MSB parity 
stuffing for command responses only based on some algorithm that makes 
the most sense.

-A

On 2019-11-13 19:08, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote:

> Jumping back in here:
> 
> Initially, tcpser's goal was to emulate enough of the "Hayes" command
> set so as to bridge old BBS applications so they could be once again
> used without modifying them and trying to make them aware of the
> Internet.? Over time, that mandate meant adding in support for S
> registers and & commands and such, since apps used those.
> 
> However, the actual line functionality of the modem was never
> attempted to be emulated, as doing so would defeat the purpose of the
> app.
> 
> Initially, I assumed everyone would set their BBS to 8N1, so as to
> maximize the utility of the connection (8 bit clean, etc.).
> 
> But, now, I have a Teletype Model 43 here, and it only does 7 bit
> ASCII. Fozztexx's mod helps, but it only cleans up parity while in
> command mode, which means I can atdt jammingsignal.com, but then when
> I connect, I can't log onto that Telnet BBS (that's the catchall name
> for such things) because parity gets in the way.
> 
> To be as useful as possible, I think the utility should detect parity
> in command mode, but then switch the entire data stream to that
> configuration, both command mode and data mode.
> 
> The alternative (since a PC can't sniff the serial stream like the
> Hayes did), is to allow parameters to set the specific parity and
> number of stop bits.? And, I think I'll do both.? Without parity and
> stop bits, sniff parity.? With it, lock in the parity and don't
> sniff.? That way, if folks want the purist behavior, they do tcpser
> -s1200,N,8,1 and sniffing can just do -s 1200
> 
> Jim

From jim at photojim.ca  Thu Nov 14 09:59:52 2019
From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 09:59:52 -0600
Subject: Xerox 820 PC
Message-ID: <1d1701d59b04$8d0272a0$a70757e0$@photojim.ca>

With permission, I?m forwarding this email about a Xerox 820-II that?s available in Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada.  (I live in Regina, and know Steven.)

 

Feel free to contact him directly.  He?s also available by IRC; email me directly for server details.

 

Jim

 

From: Steven Brown [mailto:tuxsteve at gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2019 10:01 PM
To: buysell at losurs.org; Q&A LOSURS <q&a at losurs.org>
Subject: [LOSURS: buysell] Xerox 820 PC

 

My dad worked at Xerox for over 20 years here in Regina.  A former co-worker of his called him to see if he knew anyone who might be interested in taking ownership of a Xerox 820 he has.

 

Still works apparently.

 

Specs can be found here:

https://oldcomputers.net/xerox-820.html 

 

 He sent along the following information:

"

This is a xerox 820 II antique, black & white screen, 8? HD and a dual 8? floppy unit, has the 8 and 16 bit intel processors.
If one was interested in playing with the old stuff.
Tried to give it to Western Development museum but they only want stuff that relates to Saskatchewan.
Oh yes it is a com base operating system  

"

 

He mentioned it comes with a pile of software as well.

 

Picture sent isn't very good but here it is:

https://imgur.com/a/CzH5FHz

 

 

If anyone is interested please let me know. If anybody knows of a person or institution who may be interested, please let me know.

 

Regards,

Steven Brown

 


From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Nov 14 10:02:21 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 08:02:21 -0800
Subject: Xerox 820 PC
In-Reply-To: <1d1701d59b04$8d0272a0$a70757e0$@photojim.ca>
References: <1d1701d59b04$8d0272a0$a70757e0$@photojim.ca>
Message-ID: <42018670-3465-50db-4a76-2020ffaac891@bitsavers.org>



On 11/14/19 7:59 AM, Jim MacKenzie via cctalk wrote:
> With permission, I?m forwarding this email about a Xerox 820-II that?s available in Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada.  (I live in Regina, and know Steven.)

someone should check if it has 5 or 8" floppies or a hard disk




From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Thu Nov 14 10:05:56 2019
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 16:05:56 +0000
Subject: ge  first transistors
In-Reply-To: <0AA11DDF-E592-4292-A175-97F4522D2659@comcast.net>
References: <1514147181.92888.1573726199245.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <3.0.6.32.20191114224941.012eb898@mail.optusnet.com.au>,
 <0AA11DDF-E592-4292-A175-97F4522D2659@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <BYAPR01MB56086BD46B1C1489C407C4C6A3710@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>

FETs come in to basic types, junction and MOS. Junction FETs can only be depletion types but MOS can be both, depletion or enhancement. CMOS uses enhancement types. The CuO was a depletion type junction FET. MOS is about as different from a junction FET as a junction FET is from a bipolar transistor. All three use semiconductors but in different ways. Connecting the three types and saying it was invented in the 1920's is silly. The MOS FET is only in name related to the CuO FET. They were both field effect. They didn't have anywhere near the manufacturing abilities to make MOS FETs at that time, nor did they understand how it worked to make one.
Dwight

________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Paul Koning via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2019 6:22 AM
To: Guy Dunphy <guykd at optusnet.com.au>; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: ge first transistors



> On Nov 14, 2019, at 6:49 AM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> At 10:09 AM 14/11/2019 +0000, ED SHARPE wrote:
>>
>> g11 for analog and g11a for digital and pulse
>> we have a G11A  new in box unused  with cellophane surround available  respond off list
>
>
> Pretty cool. Some pics down a way in this page:
>   https://sites.google.com/site/transistorhistory/Home/us-semiconductor-manufacturers/general-electric-history

Neat.  Speaking of old semiconductor history, I'd love to see again the description (data sheet or magazine article, I'm no longer sure) that my father had, about FETs made from copper oxide.  Possibly before the 1940s, I don't remember.  I've had no luck tracking any of this down.

        paul


From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Nov 14 10:22:39 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 08:22:39 -0800
Subject: ge first transistors
In-Reply-To: <BYAPR01MB56086BD46B1C1489C407C4C6A3710@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <1514147181.92888.1573726199245.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <3.0.6.32.20191114224941.012eb898@mail.optusnet.com.au>
 <0AA11DDF-E592-4292-A175-97F4522D2659@comcast.net>
 <BYAPR01MB56086BD46B1C1489C407C4C6A3710@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <3e0aeca5-ef08-fabd-2b52-aff55eb586a4@sydex.com>

On 11/14/19 8:05 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote:
> FETs come in to basic types, junction and MOS. Junction FETs can only be depletion types but MOS can be both, depletion or enhancement. CMOS uses enhancement types. The CuO was a depletion type junction FET. MOS is about as different from a junction FET as a junction FET is from a bipolar transistor. All three use semiconductors but in different ways. Connecting the three types and saying it was invented in the 1920's is silly. The MOS FET is only in name related to the CuO FET. They were both field effect. They didn't have anywhere near the manufacturing abilities to make MOS FETs at that time, nor did they understand how it worked to make one.
> Dwight

So what's your point?

That Shockley et al. invented the MOSFET?
That Lilienfeld didn't invent a type of transistor before Shockley et al.?
That Lilienfeld didn't invent the FET?

I'm trying to follow.

The success of any sort of transistor in my own opinion, owes more
toward materials science (e.g. zone refining) than the notion of the
devices themselves.

Negative-resistance solid-state devices were well known even prior to
Lilienfeld.  It's just that material technology hadn't evolved to a
point where they were commercially viable.

One fellow has documented his success building oscillators and
amplifiers using galvanized steel bits.

--Chuck


From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Thu Nov 14 10:41:05 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 09:41:05 -0700
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <106c01d59af9$932d4750$b987d5f0$@photojim.ca>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <b990efe2-ac3f-6577-28c3-7db197aa58e2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911131224390.13891@shell.lmi.net>
 <5a98da41-2dc3-e3a8-6162-ac519e194e12@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <f7f9831a-612d-d86a-6f34-93caaba67753@gmail.com>
 <106c01d59af9$932d4750$b987d5f0$@photojim.ca>
Message-ID: <481950b3-1b24-1d2a-d9e7-25f25c0630a2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 11/14/19 7:41 AM, Jim MacKenzie via cctalk wrote:
> I have a ham radio callsign too (VE5EV) and one of these years I intend 
> to really experiment with packet radio, and eventually, AX25 TCP/IP 
> networking over radio using packet modems.

I'm also interested in packet.  I keep poking friends & coworkers near 
me to see if they are interested.  None of them have indicated any 
interest, yet.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From jim at photojim.ca  Thu Nov 14 10:48:08 2019
From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 10:48:08 -0600
Subject: Xerox 820 PC
In-Reply-To: <42018670-3465-50db-4a76-2020ffaac891@bitsavers.org>
References: <1d1701d59b04$8d0272a0$a70757e0$@photojim.ca>
 <42018670-3465-50db-4a76-2020ffaac891@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <276801d59b0b$4b682680$e2387380$@photojim.ca>

A 20 MB hard disk, and dual 8" floppies.

Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow via cctalk
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2019 10:02 AM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Xerox 820 PC



On 11/14/19 7:59 AM, Jim MacKenzie via cctalk wrote:
> With permission, I?m forwarding this email about a Xerox 820-II that?s available in Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada.  (I live in Regina, and know Steven.)

someone should check if it has 5 or 8" floppies or a hard disk





From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu Nov 14 11:06:48 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 11:06:48 -0600
Subject: ge first transistors
In-Reply-To: <35dac780-ca77-1d9c-7568-298d0acee0bf@sydex.com>
References: <1514147181.92888.1573726199245.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <3.0.6.32.20191114224941.012eb898@mail.optusnet.com.au>
 <0AA11DDF-E592-4292-A175-97F4522D2659@comcast.net>
 <35dac780-ca77-1d9c-7568-298d0acee0bf@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <5DCD89A8.90402@pico-systems.com>

On 11/14/2019 09:00 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> Julius Edgar Lilienfeld filed a patent in 1925 (US 1745175)
My understanding is he got a single transistor to work ONCE 
for a few hours.  Maybe actually he got a couple to work, 
but they were very fragile and degraded quickly.  The Bell 
Labs guys got their to work for at least weeks and could 
make them fairly reliably. Lillienfeld's transistor was a 
field effect type, not BJT.  I think the ability in 1947 to 
manufacture semiconductor materials and understanding of 
doping and other processing was why the Bell Labs guys were 
so much more successful.
It was only 5 years before commercial transistorized 
products started to appear.

Jon



From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Thu Nov 14 12:26:03 2019
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 18:26:03 +0000
Subject: ge first transistors
In-Reply-To: <3e0aeca5-ef08-fabd-2b52-aff55eb586a4@sydex.com>
References: <1514147181.92888.1573726199245.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <3.0.6.32.20191114224941.012eb898@mail.optusnet.com.au>
 <0AA11DDF-E592-4292-A175-97F4522D2659@comcast.net>
 <BYAPR01MB56086BD46B1C1489C407C4C6A3710@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>,
 <3e0aeca5-ef08-fabd-2b52-aff55eb586a4@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <BYAPR01MB56089B6EBA4DEEC0692A4DD1A3710@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>

My point was that lumping them all together is like lumping propeller plane, jet planes and rockets as all the same. They all use the principles of throwing mass in the opposite direction of desired motion. They are still quite different when you look just a little closer.
I have a clever way of using two junction FETs, N and P types, to make a nice negative resistance device. Without much extra things, it can make a nice low power FM jammer. I never did look to see how high a frequency it would go. No need to buy an expensive tunnel diode.
Dwight

________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2019 8:22 AM
To: dwight via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: ge first transistors

On 11/14/19 8:05 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote:
> FETs come in to basic types, junction and MOS. Junction FETs can only be depletion types but MOS can be both, depletion or enhancement. CMOS uses enhancement types. The CuO was a depletion type junction FET. MOS is about as different from a junction FET as a junction FET is from a bipolar transistor. All three use semiconductors but in different ways. Connecting the three types and saying it was invented in the 1920's is silly. The MOS FET is only in name related to the CuO FET. They were both field effect. They didn't have anywhere near the manufacturing abilities to make MOS FETs at that time, nor did they understand how it worked to make one.
> Dwight

So what's your point?

That Shockley et al. invented the MOSFET?
That Lilienfeld didn't invent a type of transistor before Shockley et al.?
That Lilienfeld didn't invent the FET?

I'm trying to follow.

The success of any sort of transistor in my own opinion, owes more
toward materials science (e.g. zone refining) than the notion of the
devices themselves.

Negative-resistance solid-state devices were well known even prior to
Lilienfeld.  It's just that material technology hadn't evolved to a
point where they were commercially viable.

One fellow has documented his success building oscillators and
amplifiers using galvanized steel bits.

--Chuck


From brianb1224 at aol.com  Thu Nov 14 13:01:16 2019
From: brianb1224 at aol.com (brianb1224)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 13:01:16 -0600
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <481950b3-1b24-1d2a-d9e7-25f25c0630a2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <20191114190132.6A6DC27422@mx1.ezwind.net>

I do too. KF5CNC. Interested in packet.? Looking for a local ham also. Also into retro Amiga and CP/M.? It's just a hop skip jump if you ever decide to visit New Orleans, louisiana. ?73Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
-------- Original message --------From: Grant Taylor via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Date: 11/14/19  10:41 AM  (GMT-06:00) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Question about modems On 11/14/19 7:41 AM, Jim MacKenzie via cctalk wrote:> I have a ham radio callsign too (VE5EV) and one of these years I intend > to really experiment with packet radio, and eventually, AX25 TCP/IP > networking over radio using packet modems.I'm also interested in packet.? I keep poking friends & coworkers near me to see if they are interested.? None of them have indicated any interest, yet.-- Grant. . . .unix || die

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Nov 14 13:08:31 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 11:08:31 -0800
Subject: ge first transistors
In-Reply-To: <BYAPR01MB56089B6EBA4DEEC0692A4DD1A3710@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <1514147181.92888.1573726199245.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <3.0.6.32.20191114224941.012eb898@mail.optusnet.com.au>
 <0AA11DDF-E592-4292-A175-97F4522D2659@comcast.net>
 <BYAPR01MB56086BD46B1C1489C407C4C6A3710@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <3e0aeca5-ef08-fabd-2b52-aff55eb586a4@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR01MB56089B6EBA4DEEC0692A4DD1A3710@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <344a78ba-c3a3-5936-4929-b0546135a65a@sydex.com>

On 11/14/19 10:26 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote:
> My point was that lumping them all together is like lumping propeller plane, jet planes and rockets as all the same. They all use the principles of throwing mass in the opposite direction of desired motion. They are still quite different when you look just a little closer.
> I have a clever way of using two junction FETs, N and P types, to make a nice negative resistance device. Without much extra things, it can make a nice low power FM jammer. I never did look to see how high a frequency it would go. No need to buy an expensive tunnel diode.
> Dwight

So, Shockley et al. didn't invent the IGBT either.

JFETs are enormously useful as constant-current devices as well as small
signal switches.

I've got a bunch of tunnel diodes; never found a practical use for them
for me.

--Chuck


From couryhouse at aol.com  Thu Nov 14 13:23:42 2019
From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 19:23:42 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: ge first transistors
In-Reply-To: <35dac780-ca77-1d9c-7568-298d0acee0bf@sydex.com>
References: <1514147181.92888.1573726199245.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <3.0.6.32.20191114224941.012eb898@mail.optusnet.com.au>
 <0AA11DDF-E592-4292-A175-97F4522D2659@comcast.net>
 <35dac780-ca77-1d9c-7568-298d0acee0bf@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <14536966.246295.1573759422780@mail.yahoo.com>

bell patent attorneys had to carefully dance around? Lilienfeld's early work i understand...? ?Ed#
In a message dated 11/14/2019 8:01:00 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:

On 11/14/19 6:22 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:

> Neat.? Speaking of old semiconductor history, I'd love to see again the description (data sheet or magazine article, I'm no longer sure) that my father had, about FETs made from copper oxide.? Possibly before the 1940s, I don't remember.? I've had no luck tracking any of this down.
> 

Julius Edgar Lilienfeld filed a patent in 1925 (US 1745175)

Also US 1900018 and an interesting derivative US US1877140.

Also, Lilienfeld was the inventor of the electrolytic capacitor.

I'm not sure about the exact copper-oxide FET article, it's not a dead
topic; see: https://aip.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/1.3589374

I'm surprised that Brattain, Shockley et al. are regarded in higher
regard by the history writers, particularly because they were aware of
Lilienfeld's early work and worded their patent to avoid prior art issues.

I'd ask one of today's historians which transistor type occurs in the
greatest numbers today--I suspect it's FET by a long shot over BJT.

--Chuck



From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Thu Nov 14 13:52:54 2019
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 19:52:54 +0000
Subject: ge first transistors
In-Reply-To: <344a78ba-c3a3-5936-4929-b0546135a65a@sydex.com>
References: <1514147181.92888.1573726199245.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <3.0.6.32.20191114224941.012eb898@mail.optusnet.com.au>
 <0AA11DDF-E592-4292-A175-97F4522D2659@comcast.net>
 <BYAPR01MB56086BD46B1C1489C407C4C6A3710@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <3e0aeca5-ef08-fabd-2b52-aff55eb586a4@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR01MB56089B6EBA4DEEC0692A4DD1A3710@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>,
 <344a78ba-c3a3-5936-4929-b0546135a65a@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <BYAPR01MB560895C14E7CE26226536D7AA3710@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>

Just a handful of current day uP use more CMOS transistors than all the junction transistors produced by any one factory per year.
Dwight

________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2019 11:08 AM
To: dwight via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: ge first transistors

On 11/14/19 10:26 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote:
> My point was that lumping them all together is like lumping propeller plane, jet planes and rockets as all the same. They all use the principles of throwing mass in the opposite direction of desired motion. They are still quite different when you look just a little closer.
> I have a clever way of using two junction FETs, N and P types, to make a nice negative resistance device. Without much extra things, it can make a nice low power FM jammer. I never did look to see how high a frequency it would go. No need to buy an expensive tunnel diode.
> Dwight

So, Shockley et al. didn't invent the IGBT either.

JFETs are enormously useful as constant-current devices as well as small
signal switches.

I've got a bunch of tunnel diodes; never found a practical use for them
for me.

--Chuck


From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Thu Nov 14 13:53:49 2019
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:53:49 -0700
Subject: ge first transistors
In-Reply-To: <D87BD603-3FD0-4023-B289-3AC17C1AA84F@comcast.net>
References: <1514147181.92888.1573726199245.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <3.0.6.32.20191114224941.012eb898@mail.optusnet.com.au>
 <0AA11DDF-E592-4292-A175-97F4522D2659@comcast.net>
 <35dac780-ca77-1d9c-7568-298d0acee0bf@sydex.com>
 <D87BD603-3FD0-4023-B289-3AC17C1AA84F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4d44ed49-74ab-a08f-f0e0-0bd8df0200bf@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 11/14/2019 8:08 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Nov 14, 2019, at 10:00 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> On 11/14/19 6:22 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
>>
>>> Neat.  Speaking of old semiconductor history, I'd love to see again the description (data sheet or magazine article, I'm no longer sure) that my father had, about FETs made from copper oxide.  Possibly before the 1940s, I don't remember.  I've had no luck tracking any of this down.
>>>
>>
>> Julius Edgar Lilienfeld filed a patent in 1925 (US 1745175)
> 
> Nice.  Thank you!
> 
>> Also US 1900018 and an interesting derivative US US1877140.
>>
>> Also, Lilienfeld was the inventor of the electrolytic capacitor.
>>
>> I'm not sure about the exact copper-oxide FET article, it's not a dead
>> topic; see: https://aip.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/1.3589374
>>
>> I'm surprised that Brattain, Shockley et al. are regarded in higher
>> regard by the history writers, particularly because they were aware of
>> Lilienfeld's early work and worded their patent to avoid prior art issues.
>>
>> I'd ask one of today's historians which transistor type occurs in the
>> greatest numbers today--I suspect it's FET by a long shot over BJT.
> 
> By a mile, for sure, given that LSI integrated circuits are mostly CMOS FET transistors.  Then again, for the first several decades bipolar transistors were pretty much all you'd see.
> 
> There's a familiar pattern here.  X does something first, but that discovery doesn't make a real impact on history.  Y does it some time later, and that one does start a new historic trend.  So Y gets most of the credit and X is either a footnote or is generallly forgotten.
> 
> Some examples:
> X = Leif Erikson, Y = Columbus (travel to America).
> X = Hanso Idzerda, Y = Edwin Armstrong (FM radio).
> 
> 	paul
> 

But then it takes a third party to take out of the lab make it public 
like the transitor radio,or a transtorized computer or even hearing 
aids. I like this place for transistor history.
http://www.semiconductormuseum.com/Museum_Index.htm
Ben.
PS X..Y... Z = Beatles (The Britsh invade America) :)




From bhilpert at shaw.ca  Thu Nov 14 14:27:21 2019
From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:27:21 -0800
Subject: ge first transistors
In-Reply-To: <BYAPR01MB56089B6EBA4DEEC0692A4DD1A3710@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <1514147181.92888.1573726199245.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <3.0.6.32.20191114224941.012eb898@mail.optusnet.com.au>
 <0AA11DDF-E592-4292-A175-97F4522D2659@comcast.net>
 <BYAPR01MB56086BD46B1C1489C407C4C6A3710@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>,
 <3e0aeca5-ef08-fabd-2b52-aff55eb586a4@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR01MB56089B6EBA4DEEC0692A4DD1A3710@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <6557058C-8DB1-426E-91DF-78B39585CF03@shaw.ca>

On 2019-Nov-14, at 10:26 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote:
> ______________________________
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2019 8:22 AM
> To: dwight via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: ge first transistors
> 
> On 11/14/19 8:05 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote:
>> FETs come in to basic types, junction and MOS. Junction FETs can only be depletion types but MOS can be both, depletion or enhancement. CMOS uses enhancement types. The CuO was a depletion type junction FET. MOS is about as different from a junction FET as a junction FET is from a bipolar transistor. All three use semiconductors but in different ways. Connecting the three types and saying it was invented in the 1920's is silly. The MOS FET is only in name related to the CuO FET. They were both field effect. They didn't have anywhere near the manufacturing abilities to make MOS FETs at that time, nor did they understand how it worked to make one.
>> Dwight
> 
> So what's your point?
> 
> That Shockley et al. invented the MOSFET?
> That Lilienfeld didn't invent a type of transistor before Shockley et al.?
> That Lilienfeld didn't invent the FET?
> 
> I'm trying to follow.
> 
> The success of any sort of transistor in my own opinion, owes more
> toward materials science (e.g. zone refining) than the notion of the
> devices themselves.

> ...
> --Chuck
> 
> My point was that lumping them all together is like lumping propeller plane, jet planes and rockets as all the same. They all use the principles of throwing mass in the opposite direction of desired motion. They are still quite different when you look just a little closer.
> ...
> Dwight


MOSFETs and JFETs share the same fundamental operating principle: variable constriction of a conducting channel by electrostatic forces. Their implementation details differ, essentially in the manner of achieving gate isolation.

This is significantly different than the fundamental operating principle of BJTs: current-mediated conduction.

I don't get why you'd want to put them in 3 'equally different' categories.
I see MOSFETs and JFETs in one category, BJTs in another.

Put another way, without having looked at either patent in detail, I would wonder what it was in the Lilienfeld patent that Bell had to walk around for the BJT, other than using semiconductors they don't have much in common. I would think if there was conflict, the Lilienfeld patent was extremely broad. On the other hand, I could readily see how somebody trying to patent either the JFET or the MOSFET might run afoul of the Lilienfeld patent.

Or to use your engines analogy, Id see it more as diesel(1) and gasoline(2) engines vs turbine(3) engines.
The first two have significant similarity distinct from the third.

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Nov 14 14:30:04 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 12:30:04 -0800
Subject: ge first transistors
In-Reply-To: <4d44ed49-74ab-a08f-f0e0-0bd8df0200bf@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <1514147181.92888.1573726199245.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <3.0.6.32.20191114224941.012eb898@mail.optusnet.com.au>
 <0AA11DDF-E592-4292-A175-97F4522D2659@comcast.net>
 <35dac780-ca77-1d9c-7568-298d0acee0bf@sydex.com>
 <D87BD603-3FD0-4023-B289-3AC17C1AA84F@comcast.net>
 <4d44ed49-74ab-a08f-f0e0-0bd8df0200bf@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <08a6e63e-5a43-121a-5f76-38c2b1502c86@sydex.com>

On 11/14/19 11:53 AM, ben via cctalk wrote:

> But then it takes a third party to take out of the lab make it public
> like the transitor radio,or a transtorized computer or even hearing
> aids. I like this place for transistor history.
> http://www.semiconductormuseum.com/Museum_Index.htm
> Ben.

Neither did Edison invent the carbon-filament incandescent lamp.

What got him his reputation was that he offered the complete package of
generation, distribution and illumination.

But then, as we all know, Steve Jobs invented the microprocessor...

--Chuck

From spacewar at gmail.com  Thu Nov 14 14:52:10 2019
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 13:52:10 -0700
Subject: WANTED: iSBC-202 microcode image
In-Reply-To: <a54389eb-21d1-4fe3-18eb-24ad29abb748@charter.net>
References: <50c94b17-52e9-d911-a424-fc19fe034ea7@tiscali.it>
 <a54389eb-21d1-4fe3-18eb-24ad29abb748@charter.net>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTTs9evEoHkPGGm6PtuP_famz9GjsmzxwttBrMKwpPdodA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 14, 2019 at 7:17 AM Jay Jaeger via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> The iSBC 202 is actually two boards:  a controller, PSA 1000467 and a
> interface board PWA 1001036.
>
> There are 4 PROMS on the controller/channel board, intel D3604 (512x8),
> labelled A10: 52-722, A11: 52-729, A12: 52-741 and A13: 52-735 .  I
> presume these are what you are looking for.
>

I've just sent F.Ulivi a tarball with the PROM dumps I have from both the
SBC 202 and SBC 201, which are the double-density (M2FM, Intel proprietary
format) and single-density (FM, IBM standard format) controllers,
respectively. They use the same channel controller board but different
firmware and different interface boards.

The 52-nnn and 91-nnnnn part numbers are the ordering part numbers for
service parts for the Intel development systems. The PROMs also have a
"pattern number" which is unique only with regard to the PROM type (Intel
3604/3604A).

There are other versions in existence, but these are what I have:

ctlr  posn  p/n       pattern
----  ----  --------  -------
201   A10   52-606    0236
201   A11   52-607    0237
201   A12   52-608    0238
201   A13   52-633    0239

202   A10   52-722    0230
202   A11   91-00277  0261     (this may be a newer version of 52-741,
which may have been pattern 0231)
202   A12   52-741    0233
202   A13   52-735    0232

Best regards,
Eric

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Thu Nov 14 14:58:53 2019
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 20:58:53 -0000
Subject: Connecting LK250 to VAXmate
In-Reply-To: <CAEfH1SGyqempNqw-s7niGWfzts_xk5NF8FksK7smTpvZ=GZH-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000601d52354$511a49c0$f34edd40$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAEfH1SGyqempNqw-s7niGWfzts_xk5NF8FksK7smTpvZ=GZH-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004301d59b2e$5308bc60$f91a3520$@ntlworld.com>

Hello Jason,

 

I have all the bits necessary to make a cable for the LK250 now, without butchering the IBM Model M cable I bought (which turns out to only have 4 out of 6 wires). All I need now is the pinout. I have the VAXmate technical description which gives me pin numbers and signals for the cable, but I am not really sure how that maps to the connector pins. So, if you, or anyone else, could tell me the pinout for the LK250 cable I would be very grateful. From the technical description it looks like I may be able to get away with only 4 wires, not sure.

 

Thanks

 

Rob 

 

From: Jason T <silent700 at gmail.com> 
Sent: 15 June 2019 14:46
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>; robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com; rob at jarratt.me.uk
Subject: Re: Connecting LK250 to VAXmate

 

On Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 03:28 Rob Jarratt via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org> > wrote:

I recently acquired a VAXmate with an LK250 keyboard. The problem is the
keyboard came without the cable. It uses an 8-pin SDL connector and the
usual tiny MMJ-like connector at the keyboard end. I don't know the pinout
and I don't have the necessary crimping tools, is there any source for such
a cable?

 

Is it actually MMJ, with the offset pin, like a DEC serial cable? Or is it just an RJ connector like a telephone handset?  And is the SDL end the same type as on an IBM model M keyboard?

 

I have a VAXmate buried in storage. With enough prodding I could dig it out and try to determine the pinout of the cable. 


From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 14 15:02:10 2019
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 15:02:10 -0600
Subject: TI994/A Power Supply
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTR9zTKPFvmWGM17tO0nXTq7kcjG3UMRvBx0q+noCULgDw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <017501d592d4$faf1f2a0$f0d5d7e0$@internode.on.net>
 <B026DD6E-17A7-4F8D-B931-259B9CB854C8@gmail.com>
 <cab484fe-b1c1-13a3-8c0e-b6990ad9e694@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTR9zTKPFvmWGM17tO0nXTq7kcjG3UMRvBx0q+noCULgDw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7223d588-6a4b-1802-c467-cb2b3d80a3be@gmail.com>

On 11/11/19 1:12 AM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 1:46 PM Jules Richardson via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
>> I've got another /4A however which has a 2-pin plug on the back, and that
>> one appears to just take plain ol' 110VAC line voltage and the PSU is
>> completely internal (at least, there's a power cord with it which fits,
>> but
>> that one has a few broken keys and so I've never actually done anything
>> with it).
>>
> 
> I'm about 95% certain that it does NOT take line voltage in.

Hmm, I'll see if I can find a moment to take it apart later. It's 
interesting that it's a boxed unit with a cord that fits - but then it does 
have three broken keys (caps are kicking around in the box) so it's 
entirely possible that someone just parked it there for storage.

cheers

Jules

From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Nov 14 15:38:00 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 13:38:00 -0800
Subject: Quantum 2080 and 540 service manuals
Message-ID: <76b348ec-5aad-9cfe-a93f-2cb633a428f6@bitsavers.org>

These showed up on eBay, I'd been looking for them for over twenty years

http://bitsavers.org/pdf/quantum/Q500/81-50466A_Q500_Technical_Reference_Manual_Sep1984.pdf
http://bitsavers.org/pdf/qunatum/Q2000/81-49218A_Q2080_Technical_Reference_Manual_Jan1984.pdf


From brain at jbrain.com  Thu Nov 14 20:48:09 2019
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 20:48:09 -0600
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <4E6F25D3-ECCC-48CF-8DE9-CD7EF76CD1BC@reanimators.org>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1911130616040.27352@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <8bdc46ab-e9a2-0e4b-4b55-24f9cc3aabe3@gmail.com>
 <4E6F25D3-ECCC-48CF-8DE9-CD7EF76CD1BC@reanimators.org>
Message-ID: <53edeaec-5f0d-a621-cd17-4203e119f470@jbrain.com>

Well, I am off and running on getting my version of the code up to speed:

https://github.com/go4retro/tcpser

Man, some of this code is rough.? I have learned a lot about writing C 
code in the last decade+.

Anyway, while I work on adding the appropriate functionality into the 
codebase, I find myself ruminating on why there were so many parity 
options in serial communications.

I understand the need for parity per se, given link quality and such.? 
But, why the need for Odd, Even, Mark, Space.? Is there some reason why 
different parity options work better in certain situations?

Also, for those wanting to help with some code:

int detect_parity(modem_config *cfg)
{
 ? int parity, eobits;
 ? int charA, charT, charCR;


 ? charA = cfg->pchars[0];
 ? charT = cfg->pchars[1];
 ? charCR = cfg->pchars[2];

 ? parity = (charA & 0x80) >> 7;
 ? parity |= (charT & 0x80) >> 6;
 ? parity |= (charCR & 0x80) >> 5;

 ? eobits = gen_parity(charA & 0x7f);
 ? eobits |= gen_parity(charT & 0x7f) << 1;
 ? eobits |= gen_parity(charCR & 0x7f) << 2;

 ? if (parity == eobits)
 ??? return 2;

 ? if (parity && (parity ^ eobits) == (parity | eobits))
 ??? return 1;

 ? return parity & 0x3;
}

#define gen_parity(v) (((((v) * 0x0101010101010101ULL) & 
0x8040201008040201ULL) % 0x1FF) & 1)

Fozztexx (Chris Osborn) authored this little slice of code, and it uses 
the AT<cr> to determine parity of the form:

space == 0
odd == 1
even == 2
mark == 3

I'm trying to sort the code out in my head, which will happen, but takes time.  The issue I see with it is the use of the CR as the third char to check.

Hayes S registers always allows the redefinition of the CR character, via S3.  As such, there's no guarantee line termination = CR, (yes, it's valid for the first AT command, but not after, so if the user does a 8N1 ATS3=15<cr> and then switches to 7E1, the emulator will not handle well.  I agree the likelihood is almost nil someone does this, but tcpser is supposed to be very pedantic on such matters.

Thus, anyone have a way to discern parity using only the 'A' and 'T' ?  I guess I might be able to still use the terminator, since I know what it is ahead of time, but not sure if the above code works on the principle that the 3 ASCII values have unique traits that would not hold true for other values.

Jim



From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Thu Nov 14 21:17:03 2019
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 21:17:03 -0600
Subject: Xerox 820 PC
In-Reply-To: <276801d59b0b$4b682680$e2387380$@photojim.ca>
References: <1d1701d59b04$8d0272a0$a70757e0$@photojim.ca>
 <42018670-3465-50db-4a76-2020ffaac891@bitsavers.org>
 <276801d59b0b$4b682680$e2387380$@photojim.ca>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs20T6NvJQquKBMT6av_OwOUJPUE5kBrD55TMgFM64TvTjQ@mail.gmail.com>

>
> interesting but im in wrong part of manitoba to wonder over very easly.
>
>

From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Nov 14 22:25:20 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 20:25:20 -0800
Subject: Teletype BRPE 8-level punch blocks
Message-ID: <6c2fa856-be83-147c-5aa6-7218a0a511e8@bitsavers.org>

https://www.ebay.com/itm/174096548679

in case anyone saw these and wondered what they're for


From bhilpert at shaw.ca  Thu Nov 14 23:05:28 2019
From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 21:05:28 -0800
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <53edeaec-5f0d-a621-cd17-4203e119f470@jbrain.com>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1911130616040.27352@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <8bdc46ab-e9a2-0e4b-4b55-24f9cc3aabe3@gmail.com>
 <4E6F25D3-ECCC-48CF-8DE9-CD7EF76CD1BC@reanimators.org>
 <53edeaec-5f0d-a621-cd17-4203e119f470@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <377B4718-E6DA-4523-AAFB-154CD7D9BA30@shaw.ca>

On 2019-Nov-14, at 6:48 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote:
> Well, I am off and running on getting my version of the code up to speed:
> 
> https://github.com/go4retro/tcpser
> 
> Man, some of this code is rough.  I have learned a lot about writing C code in the last decade+.
> 
> Anyway, while I work on adding the appropriate functionality into the codebase, I find myself ruminating on why there were so many parity options in serial communications.
> 
> I understand the need for parity per se, given link quality and such.  But, why the need for Odd, Even, Mark, Space.  Is there some reason why different parity options work better in certain situations?
> 
> Also, for those wanting to help with some code:
> 
> int detect_parity(modem_config *cfg)
> {
>   int parity, eobits;
>   int charA, charT, charCR;
> 
> 
>   charA = cfg->pchars[0];
>   charT = cfg->pchars[1];
>   charCR = cfg->pchars[2];
> 
>   parity = (charA & 0x80) >> 7;
>   parity |= (charT & 0x80) >> 6;
>   parity |= (charCR & 0x80) >> 5;
> 
>   eobits = gen_parity(charA & 0x7f);
>   eobits |= gen_parity(charT & 0x7f) << 1;
>   eobits |= gen_parity(charCR & 0x7f) << 2;
> 
>   if (parity == eobits)
>     return 2;
> 
>   if (parity && (parity ^ eobits) == (parity | eobits))
>     return 1;
> 
>   return parity & 0x3;
> }
> 
> #define gen_parity(v) (((((v) * 0x0101010101010101ULL) & 0x8040201008040201ULL) % 0x1FF) & 1)
> 
> Fozztexx (Chris Osborn) authored this little slice of code, and it uses the AT<cr> to determine parity of the form:
> 
> space == 0
> odd == 1
> even == 2
> mark == 3
> 
> I'm trying to sort the code out in my head, which will happen, but takes time.  The issue I see with it is the use of the CR as the third char to check.
> 
> Hayes S registers always allows the redefinition of the CR character, via S3.  As such, there's no guarantee line termination = CR, (yes, it's valid for the first AT command, but not after, so if the user does a 8N1 ATS3=15<cr> and then switches to 7E1, the emulator will not handle well.  I agree the likelihood is almost nil someone does this, but tcpser is supposed to be very pedantic on such matters.
> 
> Thus, anyone have a way to discern parity using only the 'A' and 'T' ?  I guess I might be able to still use the terminator, since I know what it is ahead of time, but not sure if the above code works on the principle that the 3 ASCII values have unique traits that would not hold true for other values.
> 

(Without having gone through the code presented in full detail, but thinking from root premises.)

ASCII A = 0x41 --> 2 bits on
ASCII T = 0x54 --> 3 bits on

Thus A and T would produce different parity values, and presented with an instance of each character it should be possible to discern all 4 potential parity encodings (S/O/E/M derived from the 4 combinations possible from observing the parity bit from the two character instances 00/10/01/11 (if I have parity policy in the right order)).

So it wouldn't seem like the CR would be necessary for the task.

If one assumes ASCII encoding for the A & T it seems to me the code could be simpler - e.g. why calculate parity for known characters; but perhaps the writer had something more in mind than I'm aware or thinking of.


From brain at jbrain.com  Thu Nov 14 23:30:17 2019
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 23:30:17 -0600
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <377B4718-E6DA-4523-AAFB-154CD7D9BA30@shaw.ca>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1911130616040.27352@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <8bdc46ab-e9a2-0e4b-4b55-24f9cc3aabe3@gmail.com>
 <4E6F25D3-ECCC-48CF-8DE9-CD7EF76CD1BC@reanimators.org>
 <53edeaec-5f0d-a621-cd17-4203e119f470@jbrain.com>
 <377B4718-E6DA-4523-AAFB-154CD7D9BA30@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <d3ee25f3-dc58-8442-7c71-a73df4c8dc3c@jbrain.com>

On 11/14/2019 11:05 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote:
>
> (Without having gone through the code presented in full detail, but thinking from root premises.)
>
> ASCII A = 0x41 --> 2 bits on
> ASCII T = 0x54 --> 3 bits on

I agree, though I believe aT,At,AT,and at are all allowed, which 
complicates things a bit aT is the bad one, where the calc for 7E1 and 
7S1/8N1 yield the same values...

Jim

From imp at bsdimp.com  Thu Nov 14 23:43:36 2019
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 22:43:36 -0700
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <d3ee25f3-dc58-8442-7c71-a73df4c8dc3c@jbrain.com>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1911130616040.27352@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <8bdc46ab-e9a2-0e4b-4b55-24f9cc3aabe3@gmail.com>
 <4E6F25D3-ECCC-48CF-8DE9-CD7EF76CD1BC@reanimators.org>
 <53edeaec-5f0d-a621-cd17-4203e119f470@jbrain.com>
 <377B4718-E6DA-4523-AAFB-154CD7D9BA30@shaw.ca>
 <d3ee25f3-dc58-8442-7c71-a73df4c8dc3c@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfroijaMJjk_fiYdWj46RPyojx53qoksYR+d2ZyzznExUw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 14, 2019, 10:30 PM Jim Brain via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> On 11/14/2019 11:05 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote:
> >
> > (Without having gone through the code presented in full detail, but
> thinking from root premises.)
> >
> > ASCII A = 0x41 --> 2 bits on
> > ASCII T = 0x54 --> 3 bits on
>
> I agree, though I believe aT,At,AT,and at are all allowed, which
> complicates things a bit aT is the bad one, where the calc for 7E1 and
> 7S1/8N1 yield the same values...
>

1200 baud hayes modems required the initial AT be all upper case. I can't
recall if the 2400 baud modem relaxed this, or if it was later version.

Also, AT introduced commands. +++ could be followed immediately by ATH to
hang up...

But the parity trick discussed here matches my memory as well...

Warner

>

From bhilpert at shaw.ca  Thu Nov 14 23:59:20 2019
From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 21:59:20 -0800
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <d3ee25f3-dc58-8442-7c71-a73df4c8dc3c@jbrain.com>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1911130616040.27352@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <8bdc46ab-e9a2-0e4b-4b55-24f9cc3aabe3@gmail.com>
 <4E6F25D3-ECCC-48CF-8DE9-CD7EF76CD1BC@reanimators.org>
 <53edeaec-5f0d-a621-cd17-4203e119f470@jbrain.com>
 <377B4718-E6DA-4523-AAFB-154CD7D9BA30@shaw.ca>
 <d3ee25f3-dc58-8442-7c71-a73df4c8dc3c@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <4D0912D6-6C0B-47E9-8C11-C285B6ED1098@shaw.ca>

On 2019-Nov-14, at 9:30 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote:
> On 11/14/2019 11:05 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote:
>> 
>> (Without having gone through the code presented in full detail, but thinking from root premises.)
>> 
>> ASCII A = 0x41 --> 2 bits on
>> ASCII T = 0x54 --> 3 bits on
> 
> I agree, though I believe aT,At,AT,and at are all allowed, which complicates things a bit aT is the bad one, where the calc for 7E1 and 7S1/8N1 yield the same values...

... right, was forgetting about case.
But if you're trying to account for mixed case, I don't think the CR resolves it anyways:

ASCII  A = 0x41 --> 2 bits on
ASCII  T = 0x54 --> 3 bits on
ASCII  a = 0x61 --> 3 bits on
ASCII  t = 0x74 --> 4 bits on
ASCII CR = 0x0D --> 3 bits on

In sequence "Ta<CR>", all characters have an odd number of bits on and would produce the same parity value, and collectively would be indistinguishable from a corresponding constant M or S parity.


From bhilpert at shaw.ca  Fri Nov 15 00:01:33 2019
From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 22:01:33 -0800
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <4D0912D6-6C0B-47E9-8C11-C285B6ED1098@shaw.ca>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1911130616040.27352@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <8bdc46ab-e9a2-0e4b-4b55-24f9cc3aabe3@gmail.com>
 <4E6F25D3-ECCC-48CF-8DE9-CD7EF76CD1BC@reanimators.org>
 <53edeaec-5f0d-a621-cd17-4203e119f470@jbrain.com>
 <377B4718-E6DA-4523-AAFB-154CD7D9BA30@shaw.ca>
 <d3ee25f3-dc58-8442-7c71-a73df4c8dc3c@jbrain.com>
 <4D0912D6-6C0B-47E9-8C11-C285B6ED1098@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <1BB203FA-51FC-4DAA-99B2-DD34820C70D9@shaw.ca>


On 2019-Nov-14, at 9:59 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote:

> On 2019-Nov-14, at 9:30 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote:
>> On 11/14/2019 11:05 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote:
>>> 
>>> (Without having gone through the code presented in full detail, but thinking from root premises.)
>>> 
>>> ASCII A = 0x41 --> 2 bits on
>>> ASCII T = 0x54 --> 3 bits on
>> 
>> I agree, though I believe aT,At,AT,and at are all allowed, which complicates things a bit aT is the bad one, where the calc for 7E1 and 7S1/8N1 yield the same values...
> 
> ... right, was forgetting about case.
> But if you're trying to account for mixed case, I don't think the CR resolves it anyways:
> 
> ASCII  A = 0x41 --> 2 bits on
> ASCII  T = 0x54 --> 3 bits on
> ASCII  a = 0x61 --> 3 bits on
> ASCII  t = 0x74 --> 4 bits on
> ASCII CR = 0x0D --> 3 bits on
> 
> In sequence "Ta<CR>", all characters have an odd number of bits on and would produce the same parity value, and collectively would be indistinguishable from a corresponding constant M or S parity.

Whoops, that should have been: in sequence "aT<CR>".


From brain at jbrain.com  Fri Nov 15 00:23:52 2019
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 00:23:52 -0600
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <4D0912D6-6C0B-47E9-8C11-C285B6ED1098@shaw.ca>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1911130616040.27352@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <8bdc46ab-e9a2-0e4b-4b55-24f9cc3aabe3@gmail.com>
 <4E6F25D3-ECCC-48CF-8DE9-CD7EF76CD1BC@reanimators.org>
 <53edeaec-5f0d-a621-cd17-4203e119f470@jbrain.com>
 <377B4718-E6DA-4523-AAFB-154CD7D9BA30@shaw.ca>
 <d3ee25f3-dc58-8442-7c71-a73df4c8dc3c@jbrain.com>
 <4D0912D6-6C0B-47E9-8C11-C285B6ED1098@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <5d162b8e-6499-f73c-d741-1d3a3c984972@jbrain.com>

If you look at the values received by an 8N1 connection from a sender 
using the different settings, you get:


	AT
	at
	At
	aT
7E1
	E174
	41D4
	E1D4
	4174
7O1
	61F4
	C154
	6154
	C1F4
7M1
	E1F4
	C1D4
	E1D4
	C1F4
7S1
	6174
	4154
	6154
	4174
8N1
	6174
	4154
	6154
	4174

Obviously, still trying to find the magic boolean logic equation to 
tease out the parity, but you could brute force it with these values and 
only aT would cause you issues requiring looking at CR (7E1 would send 
8d, while 7S1/8N1 would send 0d.

Jim





From brain at jbrain.com  Fri Nov 15 00:37:58 2019
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 00:37:58 -0600
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <5d162b8e-6499-f73c-d741-1d3a3c984972@jbrain.com>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1911130616040.27352@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <8bdc46ab-e9a2-0e4b-4b55-24f9cc3aabe3@gmail.com>
 <4E6F25D3-ECCC-48CF-8DE9-CD7EF76CD1BC@reanimators.org>
 <53edeaec-5f0d-a621-cd17-4203e119f470@jbrain.com>
 <377B4718-E6DA-4523-AAFB-154CD7D9BA30@shaw.ca>
 <d3ee25f3-dc58-8442-7c71-a73df4c8dc3c@jbrain.com>
 <4D0912D6-6C0B-47E9-8C11-C285B6ED1098@shaw.ca>
 <5d162b8e-6499-f73c-d741-1d3a3c984972@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <2c3e767b-cf18-c04b-4862-ac81d19cad54@jbrain.com>

Looks like there might be a few more corner cases as well.? Maybe modems 
did not accept mixed case.? AT and at seem to work fine... Anyone have a 
modem handy to check?

From brain at jbrain.com  Fri Nov 15 00:58:47 2019
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 00:58:47 -0600
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <2c3e767b-cf18-c04b-4862-ac81d19cad54@jbrain.com>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1911130616040.27352@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <8bdc46ab-e9a2-0e4b-4b55-24f9cc3aabe3@gmail.com>
 <4E6F25D3-ECCC-48CF-8DE9-CD7EF76CD1BC@reanimators.org>
 <53edeaec-5f0d-a621-cd17-4203e119f470@jbrain.com>
 <377B4718-E6DA-4523-AAFB-154CD7D9BA30@shaw.ca>
 <d3ee25f3-dc58-8442-7c71-a73df4c8dc3c@jbrain.com>
 <4D0912D6-6C0B-47E9-8C11-C285B6ED1098@shaw.ca>
 <5d162b8e-6499-f73c-d741-1d3a3c984972@jbrain.com>
 <2c3e767b-cf18-c04b-4862-ac81d19cad54@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <e51a9297-3d2f-f9d2-7627-ef58ec9b9cc1@jbrain.com>

On 11/15/2019 12:37 AM, Jim Brain wrote:
> Looks like there might be a few more corner cases as well.? Maybe 
> modems did not accept mixed case.? AT and at seem to work fine... 
> Anyone have a modem handy to check?

Spoiler alert... They do not.? Only 'at' and 'AT' are recognized.? So, 
bit 5 of both chars must be the same for the command to be handled.

Jim

-- 
Jim Brain
brain at jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com


From bhilpert at shaw.ca  Fri Nov 15 03:12:17 2019
From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 01:12:17 -0800
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <5d162b8e-6499-f73c-d741-1d3a3c984972@jbrain.com>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1911130616040.27352@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <8bdc46ab-e9a2-0e4b-4b55-24f9cc3aabe3@gmail.com>
 <4E6F25D3-ECCC-48CF-8DE9-CD7EF76CD1BC@reanimators.org>
 <53edeaec-5f0d-a621-cd17-4203e119f470@jbrain.com>
 <377B4718-E6DA-4523-AAFB-154CD7D9BA30@shaw.ca>
 <d3ee25f3-dc58-8442-7c71-a73df4c8dc3c@jbrain.com>
 <4D0912D6-6C0B-47E9-8C11-C285B6ED1098@shaw.ca>
 <5d162b8e-6499-f73c-d741-1d3a3c984972@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <CBC9F6BF-3765-4970-981F-496036813B62@shaw.ca>

On 2019-Nov-14, at 10:23 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote:
> If you look at the values received by an 8N1 connection from a sender using the different settings, you get:
> 
> 	AT
> 	at
> 	At
> 	aT
> 7E1
> 	E174
> 	41D4
> 	E1D4
> 	4174
> 7O1
> 	61F4
> 	C154
> 	6154
> 	C1F4
> 7M1
> 	E1F4
> 	C1D4
> 	E1D4
> 	C1F4
> 7S1
> 	6174
> 	4154
> 	6154
> 	4174
> 8N1
> 	6174
> 	4154
> 	6154
> 	4174
> 
> Obviously, still trying to find the magic boolean logic equation to tease out the parity, but you could brute force it with these values and only aT would cause you issues requiring looking at CR (7E1 would send 8d, while 7S1/8N1 would send 0d.


(If it is of any consequence at this point)
If those vertical groups of 4 are intended to correspond to the first group of AT/at/At/aT, then you have the case bit (0x20) inverted, uppercase are bit 0x20 OFF (lower value), lower case are 0x20 ON (higher value).

If it's of any interest, here's some (untested) code, using your finding that the case must be consistent:

===============================================

/* Return:	-1	the two characters are not ASCII A/a and T/t
 *		-2	the case is not consistent between the two characters
 *		 0	SPACE parity
 *		 1	ODD parity
 *		 2	EVEN parity
 *		 3	MARK parity
 */
int
AssessATParity( chA, chT )
	int	chA, chT;
 {	int	pp;

	if( (chA&0x5F)!='A' || (chT&0x5F)!='T' )	// check characters are A/a and T/t
		return( -1 );

	if( ((chA^chT)&0x20) != 0 )			// check case is consistent
		return( -2 );

	pp = ((chA&0x80)>>6) | ((chT&0x80)>>7);		// extract and combine the two parity bits into two-bit value (0..3)

	if( pp==0 || pp==3 )				// check for Space or Mark parity
		return( pp );

	return( (chA&0x20) ? pp : (3-pp) );		// Odd or Even parity, but pp value (1 or 2) must be swapped depending on case
 }

====================================================

From cctalk at snarc.net  Mon Nov 11 19:34:59 2019
From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 20:34:59 -0500
Subject: swtpc.com expired???
In-Reply-To: <000801d59595$942499b0$bc6dcd10$@classiccmp.org>
References: <0c8f01d594ef$a2b20d10$e8162730$.ref@verizon.net>
 <0c8f01d594ef$a2b20d10$e8162730$@verizon.net>
 <19C6F084-270E-48EF-A8BF-241276EDF5E8@128.ca>
 <CABGJBueL0JyXAi2E9aNL17H37DuMf_eJ-9Cf0-Reo9frcNGYog@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANdZFKS-5DT=72bWnf5eVGAbzF9J_7BVkyy487xKLik2tU56WA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191107122355.GA15085@mooli.org.uk>
 <000801d59595$942499b0$bc6dcd10$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <1502eb9a-bac6-6b26-f810-8d58e713895a@snarc.net>

When this kind of things happens, it's best to just pick up the phone 
and call the person -- not to speculate that something bad might've 
happened.

I called Michael tonight. He reports, "I'm upright!" :)

Just a registration mix-up. He is working to get it fixed.


On 11/7/19 1:02 PM, jwest--- via cctalk wrote:
> That's one of my IP's. I'm quite doubtful that the content is gone, only that the domain registrant perhaps let it expire?
>
> It's safe, please don't rape my bandwidth ?
>
> J
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Peter Corlett via cctalk
> Sent: Thursday, November 7, 2019 6:24 AM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: swtpc.com expired???
>
> On Thu, Nov 07, 2019 at 09:31:04AM -0200, Alexandre Souza via cctalk wrote:
>> Last IP address of the server (71.91.242.107) also directs to a "it works"
>> page, so the entire directory may have been deleted. I also tried to
>> access subpages (like
>> /Sinclair/Interface2/Interface/Interface2_Circuitry.htm) and got a 404.
> That IP address is using name-based virtual hosting, and you can see the content by sending a suitable Host: header and/or tweaking /etc/hosts.
>
>> Seems everything is gone. Hope the archive.org backup is updated :(
> I'm taking the liberty of mirroring it just in case. It appears to be on the end of a bit of wet string, so it's entirely plausible that it is being moved to a better hosting provider.
>
>
>

From rescue at hawkmountain.net  Mon Nov 11 22:26:56 2019
From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (rescue)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 23:26:56 -0500
Subject: Anyone have docs/jumper settings for Tecmar "PC 500K/1MEG
 FLOPPY CONTROLLER" ISA card =?UTF-8?Q?=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <ebcbe5aada16b13a626aa5f7d7901e1d@localhost>
References: <ebcbe5aada16b13a626aa5f7d7901e1d@localhost>
Message-ID: <af1964e052426f020bad6102415c4e3c@localhost>

On 2019-11-07 19:04, rescue wrote:
> I have one of these, it has 2 jumper blocks, JPR2 (4 3 pin jumper
> 'settings'... looks to probably latch each of the 4 high or low) and
> JPR3 (12 on/off jumper positions).
> It also has a JPR1 which would be a 3 pin header and it is strapped
> by wire to position 1-2.
>
> Would love to figure out how the IO port and IRQs are configured.
> Card has no BIOS, so unlike a WD1002A-FOX there won't likely be any
> jumpers to set drive type.  (I'm not having much luck with that card
> in a Tandy 2500 SX... but that's a completely different issue).
>
> Hopefully someone has or knows where there are some docs on the
> jumper settings.
>
> I'd imagine I could figure out some by probing which ISA pins various
> jumpers connect to..... but any jumper settings that control chips 
> for
> decoding logic will be far more difficult to determine.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> -- Curt

I spent an hour or more tracking traces/etc on the PCB.  I believe I 
have fully figured out the settings.

Here they are for anyone ever needing them.

The card is a Tecmar PC 500K/1MEG FLOPPY CONTROLLER 941393 REV A
It also has a paper sticker on it that says WANGTEK 24128-001

Here is what I figured out:

JPR3 is a 12 position header, jumper pairs are 1+13, 2+14, 3+15, 4+16, 
..., 12+24

1+13 DRQ1
2+14 DRQ2
3+15 DRQ3
4+16 DACK1
5+16 DACK2
6+17 DACK3
7+19 IRQ9
8+20 IRQ3
9+21 IRQ4
10+22 IRQ5
11+23 IRQ6
12+24 IRQ7

Clearly, the DRQ and DACK #s should be set identical, so 1+13 and 4+16 
for DMA1, etc...

JPR2 sets the I/O port address, there is no numbering to these pins.  
There are 3 rows of pins.  The upper row is ground, the bottom row is 
+5V
and you jumper the middle row to U (up, ground), or D (down, +5V)

UUUU 300
UUUD 310
UUDU 320
UUDD 330
UDUU 340
UDUD 350
UDDU 360
UDDD 370
DUUU 380
DUUD 390
DUDU 3A0
DUDD 3B0
DDUU 3C0
DDUD 3D0
DDDU 3E0
DDDD 3F0

3F0 is standard PC primary floppy controller, 370 is for the secondary 
floppy controller.

I believe my card was set wrong, as there was no jumper for the first 
triple of JPR2, leaving the comparator inputs that compare to SA7 on the 
ISA bus indeterminate.

I'll now be seeing if I can get this operating as a secondary floppy 
controller.

No guarantees any of this is right, but I worked out some of the 
connections.  The IRQ and DMA stuff was easy.  The port addressing was 
determined mostly via a 74LS688N
so I had to track down the P0-7 and Q-07 inputs and determine what I/O 
port address the corresponding JPR2 jumpers were setting.

Oddly, SA0 through SA9 have fingers on the card.  So, not sure if this 
thing would respond to multiple addresses based on the settings of 
SA10-SA19.  This is where my ignorance of the ISA bus and PC 
architecture leave me scratching my head, but regardless, I think the 
above settings are correct.

-- Curt



From Charles.West at daystar.com  Wed Nov 13 08:27:31 2019
From: Charles.West at daystar.com (West, Charles)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 14:27:31 +0000
Subject: IBM Rigid Cleaning Tool 2200574
Message-ID: <BN7PR14MB22739F587BB62F15CCBADE6084760@BN7PR14MB2273.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>

Chas and chon here at Daystar Television do you have or can you refer us  finding

From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 15 06:46:05 2019
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 06:46:05 -0600
Subject: TI994/A Power Supply
In-Reply-To: <7223d588-6a4b-1802-c467-cb2b3d80a3be@gmail.com>
References: <017501d592d4$faf1f2a0$f0d5d7e0$@internode.on.net>
 <B026DD6E-17A7-4F8D-B931-259B9CB854C8@gmail.com>
 <cab484fe-b1c1-13a3-8c0e-b6990ad9e694@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTR9zTKPFvmWGM17tO0nXTq7kcjG3UMRvBx0q+noCULgDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7223d588-6a4b-1802-c467-cb2b3d80a3be@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <29f40d5c-9156-a4c5-d076-a1c0543e3451@gmail.com>

On 11/14/19 3:02 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote:
>> I'm about 95% certain that it does NOT take line voltage in.
> 
> Hmm, I'll see if I can find a moment to take it apart later. It's 
> interesting that it's a boxed unit with a cord that fits - but then it does 
> have three broken keys (caps are kicking around in the box) so it's 
> entirely possible that someone just parked it there for storage.

OK, the cord "fits", but having looked at it now I'm not at all convinced, 
either. The two-pin socket is actually the same as the four-pin socket on 
the other two machines, but with the upper two pins (intentionally) missing.

The PSU board inside appears to be a switcher, but I'd be inclined to agree 
with Allison that it's intended to run from low-voltage AC (I've put the 
machine back together now, but just realized that I should have checked the 
voltage rating on the rectifier stage's caps).

cheers

Jules

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Fri Nov 15 07:05:51 2019
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 05:05:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <53edeaec-5f0d-a621-cd17-4203e119f470@jbrain.com>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1911130616040.27352@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <8bdc46ab-e9a2-0e4b-4b55-24f9cc3aabe3@gmail.com>
 <4E6F25D3-ECCC-48CF-8DE9-CD7EF76CD1BC@reanimators.org>
 <53edeaec-5f0d-a621-cd17-4203e119f470@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1911150500380.20992@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>

On Thu, 14 Nov 2019, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote:

While you're working in that code, would it be possible to derive the baud 
rate of the host like the Smartmodem did?  The modem would set the baud 
rate on the first command sent to the modem.  It would be kind of a neat 
feature to have. :)

BTW, did my telnet echo and ip address patches survive into FozzTex's 
version?

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From allisonportable at gmail.com  Fri Nov 15 07:20:35 2019
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 08:20:35 -0500
Subject: TI994/A Power Supply
In-Reply-To: <29f40d5c-9156-a4c5-d076-a1c0543e3451@gmail.com>
References: <017501d592d4$faf1f2a0$f0d5d7e0$@internode.on.net>
 <B026DD6E-17A7-4F8D-B931-259B9CB854C8@gmail.com>
 <cab484fe-b1c1-13a3-8c0e-b6990ad9e694@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTR9zTKPFvmWGM17tO0nXTq7kcjG3UMRvBx0q+noCULgDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7223d588-6a4b-1802-c467-cb2b3d80a3be@gmail.com>
 <29f40d5c-9156-a4c5-d076-a1c0543e3451@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <908b0648-c9e0-9cfc-cc54-5da0066020f8@gmail.com>

On 11/15/19 7:46 AM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote:
> On 11/14/19 3:02 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote:
>>> I'm about 95% certain that it does NOT take line voltage in.
>>
>> Hmm, I'll see if I can find a moment to take it apart later. It's
>> interesting that it's a boxed unit with a cord that fits - but then it
>> does have three broken keys (caps are kicking around in the box) so
>> it's entirely possible that someone just parked it there for storage.
> 
> OK, the cord "fits", but having looked at it now I'm not at all
> convinced, either. The two-pin socket is actually the same as the
> four-pin socket on the other two machines, but with the upper two pins
> (intentionally) missing.
> 
> The PSU board inside appears to be a switcher, but I'd be inclined to
> agree with Allison that it's intended to run from low-voltage AC (I've
> put the machine back together now, but just realized that I should have
> checked the voltage rating on the rectifier stage's caps).

Your inclined to agree, seriously.

I have at least one of every model and have run them periodically for
the games, refresh the media (tape and disks) and also because its
collection.  I have all the available documents including user and
service manuals.  I've even gone as far as to make a hybrid high
speed system with 16bit wide memory.  When you have excess a few
hacked for fun.  FOor those that gasp and clutch their chest I use
the black model as they are common as house flies.  The base early
99/4 and the late beige model are uncommon.

That and ratshack used to sell the switcher, transformer, keyboard
after TI quit and parted out their stock.  I have a few of all.

Allison


From elson at pico-systems.com  Fri Nov 15 10:43:07 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 10:43:07 -0600
Subject: Teletype BRPE 8-level punch blocks
In-Reply-To: <6c2fa856-be83-147c-5aa6-7218a0a511e8@bitsavers.org>
References: <6c2fa856-be83-147c-5aa6-7218a0a511e8@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <5DCED59B.3020905@pico-systems.com>

On 11/14/2019 10:25 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/174096548679
>
> in case anyone saw these and wondered what they're for
>
>
A BRPE is a high speed 8-level paper tape punch, made by the 
Teletype corporation.  It generally runs around 50 
characters per second, but is rated to 100 CPS.  They were 
pretty noisy units.

Jon

From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri Nov 15 10:47:22 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 08:47:22 -0800
Subject: Teletype BRPE 8-level punch blocks
In-Reply-To: <5DCED59B.3020905@pico-systems.com>
References: <6c2fa856-be83-147c-5aa6-7218a0a511e8@bitsavers.org>
 <5DCED59B.3020905@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <7b2464b7-31e5-ee0e-bb96-51b24bf62148@bitsavers.org>

They were 5 6 7 and 8 level models. I need to dig around for an 8-level manual for bitsavers
since it appears the parts data in the book that I have only covers 5-7 level.

BRPEs were used as the paper tape punch in the PDP-1
Later DEC machines used Litton punch mechanisms


On 11/15/19 8:43 AM, Jon Elson wrote:

> A BRPE is a high speed 8-level paper tape punch, made by the Teletype corporation.? It generally runs around 50
> characters per second, but is rated to 100 CPS.? They were pretty noisy units.
> 
> Jon


From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri Nov 15 10:49:46 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 08:49:46 -0800
Subject: Teletype BRPE 8-level punch blocks
In-Reply-To: <7b2464b7-31e5-ee0e-bb96-51b24bf62148@bitsavers.org>
References: <6c2fa856-be83-147c-5aa6-7218a0a511e8@bitsavers.org>
 <5DCED59B.3020905@pico-systems.com>
 <7b2464b7-31e5-ee0e-bb96-51b24bf62148@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <d4840972-5bb2-fdb8-513f-9a421ccb7984@bitsavers.org>

looks like we may have one in the archive
https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/search/?s=brpe

I also see they were used in the Typeset-8 systems


On 11/15/19 8:47 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> They were 5 6 7 and 8 level models. I need to dig around for an 8-level manual for bitsavers
> since it appears the parts data in the book that I have only covers 5-7 level.
> 
> BRPEs were used as the paper tape punch in the PDP-1
> Later DEC machines used Litton punch mechanisms
> 
> 
> On 11/15/19 8:43 AM, Jon Elson wrote:
> 
>> A BRPE is a high speed 8-level paper tape punch, made by the Teletype corporation.? It generally runs around 50
>> characters per second, but is rated to 100 CPS.? They were pretty noisy units.
>>
>> Jon
> 


From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri Nov 15 10:51:32 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 08:51:32 -0800
Subject: Teletype BRPE 8-level punch blocks
In-Reply-To: <d4840972-5bb2-fdb8-513f-9a421ccb7984@bitsavers.org>
References: <6c2fa856-be83-147c-5aa6-7218a0a511e8@bitsavers.org>
 <5DCED59B.3020905@pico-systems.com>
 <7b2464b7-31e5-ee0e-bb96-51b24bf62148@bitsavers.org>
 <d4840972-5bb2-fdb8-513f-9a421ccb7984@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <12ec88b8-679b-36ef-82c0-94acb133355d@bitsavers.org>



On 11/15/19 8:49 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:

>> BRPEs were used as the paper tape punch in the PDP-1
>> Later DEC machines used Litton punch mechanisms

trivia, BRPE is pronounced "burp e"



From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Fri Nov 15 11:05:25 2019
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 17:05:25 -0000
Subject: Connecting LK250 to VAXmate
In-Reply-To: <004301d59b2e$5308bc60$f91a3520$@ntlworld.com>
References: <000601d52354$511a49c0$f34edd40$@ntlworld.com>
 <CAEfH1SGyqempNqw-s7niGWfzts_xk5NF8FksK7smTpvZ=GZH-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <004301d59b2e$5308bc60$f91a3520$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <007101d59bd6$e0acdf30$a2069d90$@ntlworld.com>

Someone else has given me the information now, so no need to do anything.

 

Thanks

 

Rob

 

From: Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> 
Sent: 14 November 2019 20:59
To: 'Jason T' <silent700 at gmail.com>; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' <cctalk at classiccmp.org>; rob at jarratt.me.uk
Subject: RE: Connecting LK250 to VAXmate

 

Hello Jason,

 

I have all the bits necessary to make a cable for the LK250 now, without butchering the IBM Model M cable I bought (which turns out to only have 4 out of 6 wires). All I need now is the pinout. I have the VAXmate technical description which gives me pin numbers and signals for the cable, but I am not really sure how that maps to the connector pins. So, if you, or anyone else, could tell me the pinout for the LK250 cable I would be very grateful. From the technical description it looks like I may be able to get away with only 4 wires, not sure.

 

Thanks

 

Rob 

 

From: Jason T <silent700 at gmail.com <mailto:silent700 at gmail.com> > 
Sent: 15 June 2019 14:46
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org> >; robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com <mailto:robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> ; rob at jarratt.me.uk <mailto:rob at jarratt.me.uk> 
Subject: Re: Connecting LK250 to VAXmate

 

On Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 03:28 Rob Jarratt via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org> > wrote:

I recently acquired a VAXmate with an LK250 keyboard. The problem is the
keyboard came without the cable. It uses an 8-pin SDL connector and the
usual tiny MMJ-like connector at the keyboard end. I don't know the pinout
and I don't have the necessary crimping tools, is there any source for such
a cable?

 

Is it actually MMJ, with the offset pin, like a DEC serial cable? Or is it just an RJ connector like a telephone handset?  And is the SDL end the same type as on an IBM model M keyboard?

 

I have a VAXmate buried in storage. With enough prodding I could dig it out and try to determine the pinout of the cable. 


From jwest at classiccmp.org  Fri Nov 15 11:25:41 2019
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 11:25:41 -0600
Subject: Discord
Message-ID: <000201d59bd9$b4b5a7b0$1e20f710$@classiccmp.org>

Greetings folks

 

The past few years I?ve become fairly focused on a particular old 1999/2000 ww2 fps computer game. Of course playing it but I?m also on the development team for the game (EA has given up on it, but we still put out new releases, maps, patches, etc.). As a result of that, I pretty much live on Discord text/audio chat these days. If you send me an email I will eventually see it and may even respond heh. But if you send me anything on Discord I?m going to see it immediately. If any of you are on discord, I am ?Todesengel#9624?. Feel free to add me as a friend and that way you can get me usually immediately. I am not leaving the hobby, nor am I saying not to email me at the usual address. But a lot of you do talk to me semi-frequently and I?m just saying discord will get to me far quicker.

 

In addition, mostly as an exercise to see how to do it, I set up a ClassicCMP discord server. That Discord server is NOT meant to replace this list, nor should it be taken to signal any less commitment on my part to keeping this list running. They are fundamentally different things; Discord is great for real time text chat back and forth. There are also audio and video channels if people want to use that to talk verbally or via video. To get on that server, here is a semi-permanent invite: https://discord.gg/U8Skw5g  Joining the server gets you to all the other folks who may join the classiccmp discord, not just me. Of course, that could be zero ? Like I said, I just did it as an exercise, and discord is how some of my family and friends stay in touch. But it is there if peeps want to use it.

 

I?d rather not turn this into a long debate of whether discord is good or bad or anything like that. I?m just saying it?s there, and it?s quicker to get ahold of me that way at times.

 

Best,

 

J

 

 

 

 

 

 


From jwest at classiccmp.org  Fri Nov 15 11:31:18 2019
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 11:31:18 -0600
Subject: Discord
In-Reply-To: <000201d59bd9$b4b5a7b0$1e20f710$@classiccmp.org>
References: <000201d59bd9$b4b5a7b0$1e20f710$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <000901d59bda$7d7b3520$78719f60$@classiccmp.org>

I believe I sent the invite to my game channel, NOT the new classiccmp server..... please use this instead:
https://discord.gg/gV6PKYW

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of jwest--- via cctalk
Sent: Friday, November 15, 2019 11:26 AM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Discord

Greetings folks

 

The past few years I?ve become fairly focused on a particular old 1999/2000 ww2 fps computer game. Of course playing it but I?m also on the development team for the game (EA has given up on it, but we still put out new releases, maps, patches, etc.). As a result of that, I pretty much live on Discord text/audio chat these days. If you send me an email I will eventually see it and may even respond heh. But if you send me anything on Discord I?m going to see it immediately. If any of you are on discord, I am ?Todesengel#9624?. Feel free to add me as a friend and that way you can get me usually immediately. I am not leaving the hobby, nor am I saying not to email me at the usual address. But a lot of you do talk to me semi-frequently and I?m just saying discord will get to me far quicker.

 

In addition, mostly as an exercise to see how to do it, I set up a ClassicCMP discord server. That Discord server is NOT meant to replace this list, nor should it be taken to signal any less commitment on my part to keeping this list running. They are fundamentally different things; Discord is great for real time text chat back and forth. There are also audio and video channels if people want to use that to talk verbally or via video. To get on that server, here is a semi-permanent invite: https://discord.gg/U8Skw5g  Joining the server gets you to all the other folks who may join the classiccmp discord, not just me. Of course, that could be zero ? Like I said, I just did it as an exercise, and discord is how some of my family and friends stay in touch. But it is there if peeps want to use it.

 

I?d rather not turn this into a long debate of whether discord is good or bad or anything like that. I?m just saying it?s there, and it?s quicker to get ahold of me that way at times.

 

Best,

 

J

 

 

 

 

 

 



From elson at pico-systems.com  Fri Nov 15 11:45:00 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 11:45:00 -0600
Subject: Teletype BRPE 8-level punch blocks
In-Reply-To: <12ec88b8-679b-36ef-82c0-94acb133355d@bitsavers.org>
References: <6c2fa856-be83-147c-5aa6-7218a0a511e8@bitsavers.org>
 <5DCED59B.3020905@pico-systems.com>
 <7b2464b7-31e5-ee0e-bb96-51b24bf62148@bitsavers.org>
 <d4840972-5bb2-fdb8-513f-9a421ccb7984@bitsavers.org>
 <12ec88b8-679b-36ef-82c0-94acb133355d@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <5DCEE41C.30707@pico-systems.com>

On 11/15/2019 10:51 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
>
> On 11/15/19 8:49 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
>
>>> BRPEs were used as the paper tape punch in the PDP-1
>>> Later DEC machines used Litton punch mechanisms
> trivia, BRPE is pronounced "burp e"
>
>
>
Which is what the things sound like a very loud burp, or a 
distant machine gun burst.

Jon

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri Nov 15 12:29:05 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 10:29:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: TI994/A Power Supply
In-Reply-To: <29f40d5c-9156-a4c5-d076-a1c0543e3451@gmail.com>
References: <017501d592d4$faf1f2a0$f0d5d7e0$@internode.on.net>
 <B026DD6E-17A7-4F8D-B931-259B9CB854C8@gmail.com>
 <cab484fe-b1c1-13a3-8c0e-b6990ad9e694@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTR9zTKPFvmWGM17tO0nXTq7kcjG3UMRvBx0q+noCULgDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7223d588-6a4b-1802-c467-cb2b3d80a3be@gmail.com>
 <29f40d5c-9156-a4c5-d076-a1c0543e3451@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911151025110.13247@shell.lmi.net>

On Fri, 15 Nov 2019, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote:
> OK, the cord "fits", but having looked at it now I'm not at all convinced, 
> either. The two-pin socket is actually the same as the four-pin socket on the 
> other two machines, but with the upper two pins (intentionally) missing.
> The PSU board inside appears to be a switcher, but I'd be inclined to agree 
> with Allison that it's intended to run from low-voltage AC (I've put the 
> machine back together now, but just realized that I should have checked the 
> voltage rating on the rectifier stage's caps).

If somebody found a mains cord that "fits" and plugged it in with the low 
voltage AC input connected to the wall, then it might not be happy now.

You might want to avail yourself of some of Allison's expertise.
Might I suggest a box of 8" floppies for XMAS?



From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Nov 15 12:29:37 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 10:29:37 -0800
Subject: Quantum 2080 and 540 service manuals
In-Reply-To: <76b348ec-5aad-9cfe-a93f-2cb633a428f6@bitsavers.org>
References: <76b348ec-5aad-9cfe-a93f-2cb633a428f6@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <dfa525c5-4704-3bb4-6c7d-ae222a301137@sydex.com>

On 11/14/19 1:38 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> These showed up on eBay, I'd been looking for them for over twenty years
> 
> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/quantum/Q500/81-50466A_Q500_Technical_Reference_Manual_Sep1984.pdf
> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/qunatum/Q2000/81-49218A_Q2080_Technical_Reference_Manual_Jan1984.pdf

Thanks for that--I've had a Q540 in service for longer than I care to
speculate.  Lately, it's gotten to be a little recalcitrant to start up,
but has yielded to repeated power cycling.

--Chuck




From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri Nov 15 12:37:01 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 10:37:01 -0800
Subject: Quantum 2080 and 540 service manuals
In-Reply-To: <dfa525c5-4704-3bb4-6c7d-ae222a301137@sydex.com>
References: <76b348ec-5aad-9cfe-a93f-2cb633a428f6@bitsavers.org>
 <dfa525c5-4704-3bb4-6c7d-ae222a301137@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <4b566f0f-d8cf-2c0a-ec24-05c8e0e68e6f@bitsavers.org>



On 11/15/19 10:29 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

> Thanks for that--I've had a Q540 in service for longer than I care to
> speculate.

You're welcome. I think this is the first complete service manual that I've
found for a 5" embedded servo drive.



From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri Nov 15 12:42:09 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 13:42:09 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Quantum 2080 and 540 service manuals
Message-ID: <20191115184209.AE19E18C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Al Kossow

    > These showed up on eBay, I'd been looking for them for over twenty years

As in, 'you all shouln't bid on those so I can grab them'? Or do you want
someone here to get them, and send you scans?

If the latter, people should co-coordinate so they aren't bidding against
each other.

	Noel

From allisonportable at gmail.com  Fri Nov 15 12:44:17 2019
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 13:44:17 -0500
Subject: TI994/A Power Supply
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911151025110.13247@shell.lmi.net>
References: <017501d592d4$faf1f2a0$f0d5d7e0$@internode.on.net>
 <B026DD6E-17A7-4F8D-B931-259B9CB854C8@gmail.com>
 <cab484fe-b1c1-13a3-8c0e-b6990ad9e694@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTR9zTKPFvmWGM17tO0nXTq7kcjG3UMRvBx0q+noCULgDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7223d588-6a4b-1802-c467-cb2b3d80a3be@gmail.com>
 <29f40d5c-9156-a4c5-d076-a1c0543e3451@gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911151025110.13247@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <fcd4d33c-2241-54f2-dcea-d6f6eec41ff3@gmail.com>

On 11/15/19 1:29 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Nov 2019, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote:
>> OK, the cord "fits", but having looked at it now I'm not at all
>> convinced, either. The two-pin socket is actually the same as the
>> four-pin socket on the other two machines, but with the upper two pins
>> (intentionally) missing.
>> The PSU board inside appears to be a switcher, but I'd be inclined to
>> agree with Allison that it's intended to run from low-voltage AC (I've
>> put the machine back together now, but just realized that I should
>> have checked the voltage rating on the rectifier stage's caps).
> 
> If somebody found a mains cord that "fits" and plugged it in with the
> low voltage AC input connected to the wall, then it might not be happy now.
> 
> You might want to avail yourself of some of Allison's expertise.
> Might I suggest a box of 8" floppies for XMAS?
> 
> 

Omph,
Its close enough to the Early HP detachable cord and yes if thats
done (could not scream nooo loud or fast enough) the result is
both load and spectacular.

I forget the ideal voltage though.  The only transformer are
ones floating loose are the 4pin plug versions.  But there
are TI 99/4A sites on the net with all that.


I have a crate of 8" used and a box or two of NIB. They seem
to last if they don't say noname or Memorex blackwatch  ;)
I use them more for RX01/02.

Allison

From allisonportable at gmail.com  Fri Nov 15 12:51:57 2019
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 13:51:57 -0500
Subject: Quantum 2080 and 540 service manuals
In-Reply-To: <dfa525c5-4704-3bb4-6c7d-ae222a301137@sydex.com>
References: <76b348ec-5aad-9cfe-a93f-2cb633a428f6@bitsavers.org>
 <dfa525c5-4704-3bb4-6c7d-ae222a301137@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <2f0864a3-1584-e25b-7e1e-154bd501267e@gmail.com>

On 11/15/19 1:29 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> On 11/14/19 1:38 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
>> These showed up on eBay, I'd been looking for them for over twenty years
>>
>> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/quantum/Q500/81-50466A_Q500_Technical_Reference_Manual_Sep1984.pdf
>> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/qunatum/Q2000/81-49218A_Q2080_Technical_Reference_Manual_Jan1984.pdf
> 
> Thanks for that--I've had a Q540 in service for longer than I care to
> speculate.  Lately, it's gotten to be a little recalcitrant to start up,
> but has yielded to repeated power cycling.
> 
> --Chuck

I must have about 15 maybe more of the D540s and have found them
to be the fastest seeking of the MFM drives and also near unbreakable.
The oldest is about 36 years old.  Use them in CP/M crates, DOS boxen,
PDP-11s (with RQDX2/3 controllers) and  Local swap for net booted
uVAX2000 and swap file disks on uVAXII (61K blocks is more than
enough swap space) for VMS5.44.

I've not had stiction problems... likely because I have spares!
Its a Murphy's law thing.

Allison

From lbickley at bickleywest.com  Fri Nov 15 12:54:16 2019
From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 10:54:16 -0800
Subject: Discord
In-Reply-To: <000201d59bd9$b4b5a7b0$1e20f710$@classiccmp.org>
References: <000201d59bd9$b4b5a7b0$1e20f710$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <20191115105416.6ee7feb4@officew7>

Hi Jay,

What game are you working on? There are SO many WWII FPS games of that
period ;)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_video_games

Cheers,
Lyle
--

On Fri, 15 Nov 2019 11:25:41 -0600
jwest--- via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Greetings folks
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_video_games
>  
> 
> The past few years I?ve become fairly focused on a particular old
> 1999/2000 ww2 fps computer game. Of course playing it but I?m also on
> the development team for the game (EA has given up on it, but we
> still put out new releases, maps, patches, etc.). As a result of
> that, I pretty much live on Discord text/audio chat these days. If
> you send me an email I will eventually see it and may even respond
> heh. But if you send me anything on Discord I?m going to see it
> immediately. If any of you are on discord, I am ?Todesengel#9624?.
> Feel free to add me as a friend and that way you can get me usually
> immediately. I am not leaving the hobby, nor am I saying not to email
> me at the usual address. But a lot of you do talk to me
> semi-frequently and I?m just saying discord will get to me far
> quicker.
> 
>  
> 
> In addition, mostly as an exercise to see how to do it, I set up a
> ClassicCMP discord server. That Discord server is NOT meant to
> replace this list, nor should it be taken to signal any less
> commitment on my part to keeping this list running. They
> arehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_video_games
> fundamentally different things; Discord is great for real time text
> chat back and forth. There are also audio and video channels if
> people want to use that to talk verbally or via video. To get on that
> server, here is a semi-permanent invite: https://discord.gg/U8Skw5g
> Joining the server gets you to all the other folks who may join the
> classiccmp discord, not just me. Of course, that could be zero ?
> Like I said, I just did it as an exercise, and discord is how some of
> my family and friends stay in touch. But it is there if peeps want to
> use it.
> 
>  
> 
> I?d rather not turn this into a long debate of whether discord is
> good or bad or anything like that. I?m just saying it?s there, and
> it?s quicker to get ahold of me that way at times.
> 
>  
> 
> Best,
> 
>  
> 
> J
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 



-- 
Lyle Bickley
NM6Y     '73
http://bickeywest.com
"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"

From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri Nov 15 12:55:24 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 10:55:24 -0800
Subject: Quantum 2080 and 540 service manuals
In-Reply-To: <20191115184209.AE19E18C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20191115184209.AE19E18C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <4fc3af5d-6ef1-c988-2074-decd95290899@bitsavers.org>



On 11/15/19 10:42 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:

> If the latter, people should co-coordinate so they aren't bidding against
> each other.

OK, well as a general rule if there is a service manual with schematics that
shows up for 5" 80's hard disks that aren't already up on bitsavers, I'm
going to go after them. It would be nice if someone runs across them to email
me, but I'm not expecting that, nor am I going to mention this to attract
attention to them if they do show up on eBay.



From jwest at classiccmp.org  Fri Nov 15 13:16:04 2019
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 13:16:04 -0600
Subject: Discord
In-Reply-To: <20191115105416.6ee7feb4@officew7>
References: <000201d59bd9$b4b5a7b0$1e20f710$@classiccmp.org>
 <20191115105416.6ee7feb4@officew7>
Message-ID: <000101d59be9$20582330$61086990$@classiccmp.org>

Medal of Honor : Allied Assault

We are also looking to 'wrap into the same game' the Spearhead and Breakthrough add-ons.

If you ever want to play, you can download a free version called "mohaa revival" (we put that out as well).
There are a few gameservers left, but 'mohaa.todesplace.org' is the one ya want to join for the 'cool people' LOL

We usually only have players during the evenings, but occasionally there is a rare day-group.

-----Original Message-----
From: Lyle Bickley <lbickley at bickleywest.com> 
Sent: Friday, November 15, 2019 12:54 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Cc: jwest at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Discord

Hi Jay,

What game are you working on? There are SO many WWII FPS games of that period ;)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_video_games

Cheers,
Lyle
--

On Fri, 15 Nov 2019 11:25:41 -0600
jwest--- via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Greetings folks
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_video_games
>  
> 
> The past few years I?ve become fairly focused on a particular old
> 1999/2000 ww2 fps computer game. Of course playing it but I?m also on 
> the development team for the game (EA has given up on it, but we still 
> put out new releases, maps, patches, etc.). As a result of that, I 
> pretty much live on Discord text/audio chat these days. If you send me 
> an email I will eventually see it and may even respond heh. But if you 
> send me anything on Discord I?m going to see it immediately. If any of 
> you are on discord, I am ?Todesengel#9624?.
> Feel free to add me as a friend and that way you can get me usually 
> immediately. I am not leaving the hobby, nor am I saying not to email 
> me at the usual address. But a lot of you do talk to me 
> semi-frequently and I?m just saying discord will get to me far 
> quicker.
> 
>  
> 
> In addition, mostly as an exercise to see how to do it, I set up a 
> ClassicCMP discord server. That Discord server is NOT meant to replace 
> this list, nor should it be taken to signal any less commitment on my 
> part to keeping this list running. They 
> arehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_video_games
> fundamentally different things; Discord is great for real time text 
> chat back and forth. There are also audio and video channels if people 
> want to use that to talk verbally or via video. To get on that server, 
> here is a semi-permanent invite: https://discord.gg/U8Skw5g Joining 
> the server gets you to all the other folks who may join the classiccmp 
> discord, not just me. Of course, that could be zero ?
> Like I said, I just did it as an exercise, and discord is how some of 
> my family and friends stay in touch. But it is there if peeps want to 
> use it.
> 
>  
> 
> I?d rather not turn this into a long debate of whether discord is good 
> or bad or anything like that. I?m just saying it?s there, and it?s 
> quicker to get ahold of me that way at times.
> 
>  
> 
> Best,
> 
>  
> 
> J
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 



--
Lyle Bickley
NM6Y     '73
http://bickeywest.com
"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"



From brain at jbrain.com  Fri Nov 15 13:38:57 2019
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 13:38:57 -0600
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <CBC9F6BF-3765-4970-981F-496036813B62@shaw.ca>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1911130616040.27352@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <8bdc46ab-e9a2-0e4b-4b55-24f9cc3aabe3@gmail.com>
 <4E6F25D3-ECCC-48CF-8DE9-CD7EF76CD1BC@reanimators.org>
 <53edeaec-5f0d-a621-cd17-4203e119f470@jbrain.com>
 <377B4718-E6DA-4523-AAFB-154CD7D9BA30@shaw.ca>
 <d3ee25f3-dc58-8442-7c71-a73df4c8dc3c@jbrain.com>
 <4D0912D6-6C0B-47E9-8C11-C285B6ED1098@shaw.ca>
 <5d162b8e-6499-f73c-d741-1d3a3c984972@jbrain.com>
 <CBC9F6BF-3765-4970-981F-496036813B62@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <0adf7aff-dcde-4787-c722-21b7f1f93127@jbrain.com>

On 11/15/2019 3:12 AM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote:
> On 2019-Nov-14, at 10:23 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote:
>> If you look at the values received by an 8N1 connection from a sender using the different settings, you get:
>>
>> 	AT
>> 	at
>> 	At
>> 	aT
>> 7E1
>> 	E174
>> 	41D4
>> 	E1D4
>> 	4174
>> 7O1
>> 	61F4
>> 	C154
>> 	6154
>> 	C1F4
>> 7M1
>> 	E1F4
>> 	C1D4
>> 	E1D4
>> 	C1F4
>> 7S1
>> 	6174
>> 	4154
>> 	6154
>> 	4174
>> 8N1
>> 	6174
>> 	4154
>> 	6154
>> 	4174
>>
>> Obviously, still trying to find the magic boolean logic equation to tease out the parity, but you could brute force it with these values and only aT would cause you issues requiring looking at CR (7E1 would send 8d, while 7S1/8N1 would send 0d.
>
> (If it is of any consequence at this point)
> If those vertical groups of 4 are intended to correspond to the first group of AT/at/At/aT, then you have the case bit (0x20) inverted, uppercase are bit 0x20 OFF (lower value), lower case are 0x20 ON (higher value).
Well, the above values are what an 8N1 connections sees when the other 
end is set to the various 7 bit parms.? I verified that the numbers 
above are correct, case and all.

Let me peruse the code you sent.? I did some eoring, but maybe your math 
works as well.? First, it looks like I need to replicate the behavior os 
the at prompt (it looks to be calculated as soon as the T is received).

Jim

-- 
Jim Brain
brain at jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com


From j_hoppe at t-online.de  Fri Nov 15 07:07:55 2019
From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 14:07:55 +0100
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
Message-ID: <ca3bf7c9-8ec2-e5cb-cb47-45a76f2bcd74@t-online.de>

Its been a long time since last public post about UniBone, time for a 
bragging broadcast.

*What it is:*
In case you forgot: UniBone is a plugin board to DEC PDP-11 UNIBUS 
systems containing a BeagleBone Black.

See http://retrocmp.com/projects/unibone.

This combo can simulate PDP-11 devices embedded in a physical machine.
So you can operate and repair incomplete UNIBUS PDP-11s and even VAXes, 
just by emulating the missing parts.
Disk drive emulators accept SimH image files, which can be ftp'd to the 
emulator (no SDcard changing!).

As UniBone can acquire bus mastership, its also UNIBUS diagnostic 
console, as well as stimulate individual UNIBUS lines.

Realtime stuff is implemented on BBB's PRU coprocessors.
All programming is done in plain C/C++ under mainstream Debian Linux.

*Whats new in 2019:*

UniBone started with memory and RL11/RL02 emulation.
In 2019 we did a lot of programming and debugging (suppressing endless 
techno-babble here).

Thanks to some gifted supporters, we have now these devices:
- DL11 serial port (first concept by David Richards)
- 11/20 CPU (Angelo Papenhoff)
- RK06 and MSCP disk drives (Josh Dersch)

In fact UniBone implements now a complete PDP-11 system... a bit like a 
SimH with UNIBUS interface.

UniBone was tested (at least) against PDP-11/05, '34, '44, '84 and VAX 
11/750.
Verified OSses include XXDP, Unix V6, 2.11BSD, RT11, RSX11M/M+, VAX 
4.3BSD and Ultrixes.
Special thanks to Mark Matlock for endless testing.

*Available?*
Soon. About 25 complete systems were distributed, and the same amount in 
kits. Not much complaints.
User group at https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/unibone
Just now I'm planing for a 2nd lot.
And it will be shown on http://vcfe.ch/doku.php in Zurich on Nov 
30th/Dec 1st, probably plugged into a PDP-11/05.

best regards,
Joerg


From w2hx at w2hx.com  Fri Nov 15 14:01:11 2019
From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 20:01:11 +0000
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
In-Reply-To: <ca3bf7c9-8ec2-e5cb-cb47-45a76f2bcd74@t-online.de>
References: <ca3bf7c9-8ec2-e5cb-cb47-45a76f2bcd74@t-online.de>
Message-ID: <1573848074830.63464@w2hx.com>

LOVE the ideas, loved it when I first heard of it. But I'm a QBUS guy! Put me on the list when (if) you ever make one for qbus. GREAT idea!
Eugene

________________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of J?rg Hoppe via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, November 15, 2019 8:07 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1

Its been a long time since last public post about UniBone, time for a
bragging broadcast.

*What it is:*
In case you forgot: UniBone is a plugin board to DEC PDP-11 UNIBUS
systems containing a BeagleBone Black.

See http://retrocmp.com/projects/unibone.

This combo can simulate PDP-11 devices embedded in a physical machine.
So you can operate and repair incomplete UNIBUS PDP-11s and even VAXes,
just by emulating the missing parts.
Disk drive emulators accept SimH image files, which can be ftp'd to the
emulator (no SDcard changing!).

As UniBone can acquire bus mastership, its also UNIBUS diagnostic
console, as well as stimulate individual UNIBUS lines.

Realtime stuff is implemented on BBB's PRU coprocessors.
All programming is done in plain C/C++ under mainstream Debian Linux.

*Whats new in 2019:*

UniBone started with memory and RL11/RL02 emulation.
In 2019 we did a lot of programming and debugging (suppressing endless
techno-babble here).

Thanks to some gifted supporters, we have now these devices:
- DL11 serial port (first concept by David Richards)
- 11/20 CPU (Angelo Papenhoff)
- RK06 and MSCP disk drives (Josh Dersch)

In fact UniBone implements now a complete PDP-11 system... a bit like a
SimH with UNIBUS interface.

UniBone was tested (at least) against PDP-11/05, '34, '44, '84 and VAX
11/750.
Verified OSses include XXDP, Unix V6, 2.11BSD, RT11, RSX11M/M+, VAX
4.3BSD and Ultrixes.
Special thanks to Mark Matlock for endless testing.

*Available?*
Soon. About 25 complete systems were distributed, and the same amount in
kits. Not much complaints.
User group at https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/unibone
Just now I'm planing for a 2nd lot.
And it will be shown on http://vcfe.ch/doku.php in Zurich on Nov
30th/Dec 1st, probably plugged into a PDP-11/05.

best regards,
Joerg


From w2hx at w2hx.com  Fri Nov 15 14:01:11 2019
From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 20:01:11 +0000
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
In-Reply-To: <ca3bf7c9-8ec2-e5cb-cb47-45a76f2bcd74@t-online.de>
References: <ca3bf7c9-8ec2-e5cb-cb47-45a76f2bcd74@t-online.de>
Message-ID: <1573848074830.63464@w2hx.com>

LOVE the ideas, loved it when I first heard of it. But I'm a QBUS guy! Put me on the list when (if) you ever make one for qbus. GREAT idea!
Eugene

________________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of J?rg Hoppe via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, November 15, 2019 8:07 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1

Its been a long time since last public post about UniBone, time for a
bragging broadcast.

*What it is:*
In case you forgot: UniBone is a plugin board to DEC PDP-11 UNIBUS
systems containing a BeagleBone Black.

See http://retrocmp.com/projects/unibone.

This combo can simulate PDP-11 devices embedded in a physical machine.
So you can operate and repair incomplete UNIBUS PDP-11s and even VAXes,
just by emulating the missing parts.
Disk drive emulators accept SimH image files, which can be ftp'd to the
emulator (no SDcard changing!).

As UniBone can acquire bus mastership, its also UNIBUS diagnostic
console, as well as stimulate individual UNIBUS lines.

Realtime stuff is implemented on BBB's PRU coprocessors.
All programming is done in plain C/C++ under mainstream Debian Linux.

*Whats new in 2019:*

UniBone started with memory and RL11/RL02 emulation.
In 2019 we did a lot of programming and debugging (suppressing endless
techno-babble here).

Thanks to some gifted supporters, we have now these devices:
- DL11 serial port (first concept by David Richards)
- 11/20 CPU (Angelo Papenhoff)
- RK06 and MSCP disk drives (Josh Dersch)

In fact UniBone implements now a complete PDP-11 system... a bit like a
SimH with UNIBUS interface.

UniBone was tested (at least) against PDP-11/05, '34, '44, '84 and VAX
11/750.
Verified OSses include XXDP, Unix V6, 2.11BSD, RT11, RSX11M/M+, VAX
4.3BSD and Ultrixes.
Special thanks to Mark Matlock for endless testing.

*Available?*
Soon. About 25 complete systems were distributed, and the same amount in
kits. Not much complaints.
User group at https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/unibone
Just now I'm planing for a 2nd lot.
And it will be shown on http://vcfe.ch/doku.php in Zurich on Nov
30th/Dec 1st, probably plugged into a PDP-11/05.

best regards,
Joerg


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri Nov 15 14:12:04 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 12:12:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: TI994/A Power Supply
In-Reply-To: <fcd4d33c-2241-54f2-dcea-d6f6eec41ff3@gmail.com>
References: <017501d592d4$faf1f2a0$f0d5d7e0$@internode.on.net>
 <B026DD6E-17A7-4F8D-B931-259B9CB854C8@gmail.com>
 <cab484fe-b1c1-13a3-8c0e-b6990ad9e694@gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTR9zTKPFvmWGM17tO0nXTq7kcjG3UMRvBx0q+noCULgDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7223d588-6a4b-1802-c467-cb2b3d80a3be@gmail.com>
 <29f40d5c-9156-a4c5-d076-a1c0543e3451@gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911151025110.13247@shell.lmi.net>
 <fcd4d33c-2241-54f2-dcea-d6f6eec41ff3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911151206390.13247@shell.lmi.net>

>> If somebody found a mains cord that "fits" and plugged it in with the
>> low voltage AC input connected to the wall, then it might not be happy now.
>> You might want to avail yourself of some of Allison's expertise.
>> Might I suggest a box of 8" floppies for XMAS?

On Fri, 15 Nov 2019, allison via cctalk wrote:
> Omph,
> Its close enough to the Early HP detachable cord and yes if thats
> done (could not scream nooo loud or fast enough) the result is
> both load and spectacular.

And, the machine and cord get thrown into a box in the back of a closet. 
Eventually, somebody else gets it, and sees that it has a cord, . . .

> I have a crate of 8" used and a box or two of NIB. They seem
> to last if they don't say noname or Memorex blackwatch  ;)
> I use them more for RX01/02.

Price these days is probably similar to what it was 45 years, ago.  And 
availability is heading towards what it was 50 years ago.

From dab at froghouse.org  Fri Nov 15 14:23:30 2019
From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 15:23:30 -0500
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
In-Reply-To: <1573848074830.63464@w2hx.com>
References: <ca3bf7c9-8ec2-e5cb-cb47-45a76f2bcd74@t-online.de>
 <1573848074830.63464@w2hx.com>
Message-ID: <7bb01f63-e0b8-f596-da33-b8656b840b08@froghouse.org>


On 11/15/19 3:01 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote:
> LOVE the ideas, loved it when I first heard of it. But I'm a QBUS guy! Put me on the list when (if) you ever make one for qbus. GREAT idea!
> Eugene


Along these lines, it's been a long time since we've updated the list
regarding the QSIC project.? Have been slowly working away on the
project here.? The QSIC is, at a high level, similar to the UniBone
except it's on the QBUS and it's based around an FPGA rather than a BBB.

Work that's gone on is that the Verilog code has been written to access
the DDR SDRAM we have so we can support larger RAM disks and eventually
the Able ENABLE.? Haven't tested it yet.

Also have made good progress on designing the prototype circuit board to
replace our wire-wrapped test board that's served us well so far.? Some
final checks and it'll soon be time to send off to China and learn about
having circuit boards assembled.? Speaking of that circuit board design,
I put in the option to add bus termination resistors but they require a
part that no-one seems to stock.? I had a request in to Mouser to get it
for me and they said they'd look into it but I haven't heard anything
back for a few weeks now.? This jogs my memory to chase them a little to
find out what's happened.

Anyway, the web page for the QSIC is here along with a KiCad rendering
of what the prototype board would look like and a slightly more accurate
diagram of what the internal modules are like (may still modify that
some more as I learned about the AXI interface and may use that for
getting to the bus and that'll change how the crossbar switch works).

http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/html/overview.html

Dave



From nw.johnson at ieee.org  Fri Nov 15 14:26:27 2019
From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 15:26:27 -0500
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
In-Reply-To: <7bb01f63-e0b8-f596-da33-b8656b840b08@froghouse.org>
References: <ca3bf7c9-8ec2-e5cb-cb47-45a76f2bcd74@t-online.de>
 <1573848074830.63464@w2hx.com>
 <7bb01f63-e0b8-f596-da33-b8656b840b08@froghouse.org>
Message-ID: <af6d6274-5681-447d-e586-7f56e329a528@ieee.org>

I think you will win a lot of friends if you can make something that 
will emulate MSCP devices on the QBus - I have a micro11 and microVax 
sans disk due to only having ESDI ate ST506 controllers!

cheers es 73 to the hams amongst us de Nigel ve3id


On 15/11/2019 15:23, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote:
> On 11/15/19 3:01 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote:
>> LOVE the ideas, loved it when I first heard of it. But I'm a QBUS guy! Put me on the list when (if) you ever make one for qbus. GREAT idea!
>> Eugene
>
> Along these lines, it's been a long time since we've updated the list
> regarding the QSIC project.? Have been slowly working away on the
> project here.? The QSIC is, at a high level, similar to the UniBone
> except it's on the QBUS and it's based around an FPGA rather than a BBB.
>
> Work that's gone on is that the Verilog code has been written to access
> the DDR SDRAM we have so we can support larger RAM disks and eventually
> the Able ENABLE.? Haven't tested it yet.
>
> Also have made good progress on designing the prototype circuit board to
> replace our wire-wrapped test board that's served us well so far.? Some
> final checks and it'll soon be time to send off to China and learn about
> having circuit boards assembled.? Speaking of that circuit board design,
> I put in the option to add bus termination resistors but they require a
> part that no-one seems to stock.? I had a request in to Mouser to get it
> for me and they said they'd look into it but I haven't heard anything
> back for a few weeks now.? This jogs my memory to chase them a little to
> find out what's happened.
>
> Anyway, the web page for the QSIC is here along with a KiCad rendering
> of what the prototype board would look like and a slightly more accurate
> diagram of what the internal modules are like (may still modify that
> some more as I learned about the AXI interface and may use that for
> getting to the bus and that'll change how the crossbar switch works).
>
> http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/html/overview.html
>
> Dave
>
>
  

-- 
Nigel Johnson
MSc., MIEEE
VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU

Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!


You can reach me by voice on Skype:  TILBURY2591

If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday

This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way.
    Nigel Johnson <nw.johnson at ieee.org>

     
Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message




From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Nov 15 14:29:05 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 12:29:05 -0800
Subject: Quantum 2080 and 540 service manuals
In-Reply-To: <2f0864a3-1584-e25b-7e1e-154bd501267e@gmail.com>
References: <76b348ec-5aad-9cfe-a93f-2cb633a428f6@bitsavers.org>
 <dfa525c5-4704-3bb4-6c7d-ae222a301137@sydex.com>
 <2f0864a3-1584-e25b-7e1e-154bd501267e@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c5e4f030-d7a7-56f1-c4e3-0243921a0ae4@sydex.com>

On 11/15/19 10:51 AM, allison via cctalk wrote:

> I must have about 15 maybe more of the D540s and have found them
> to be the fastest seeking of the MFM drives and also near unbreakable.
> The oldest is about 36 years old.  Use them in CP/M crates, DOS boxen,
> PDP-11s (with RQDX2/3 controllers) and  Local swap for net booted
> uVAX2000 and swap file disks on uVAXII (61K blocks is more than
> enough swap space) for VMS5.44.
> 
> I've not had stiction problems... likely because I have spares!
> Its a Murphy's law thing.

The Q540 that gets used is mounted on its side in an old Mad Intelligent
Systems box with an XT clone inside.  I don't think it's stiction; the
drive spins up fine, but the initial seek fails until I cycle power a
couple of times or tap the side of the drive with a screwdriver handle.

It's of no real consequence; the contents are backed up and I have a
spare XT-IDE drive if needed.  The FH MFM drives that I've owned have
slowly failed; the FH ESDI and SCSI drives have, interestingly all
continued to work.

--Chuck


From dab at froghouse.org  Fri Nov 15 15:22:46 2019
From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 16:22:46 -0500
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
In-Reply-To: <af6d6274-5681-447d-e586-7f56e329a528@ieee.org>
References: <ca3bf7c9-8ec2-e5cb-cb47-45a76f2bcd74@t-online.de>
 <1573848074830.63464@w2hx.com>
 <7bb01f63-e0b8-f596-da33-b8656b840b08@froghouse.org>
 <af6d6274-5681-447d-e586-7f56e329a528@ieee.org>
Message-ID: <75d3401b-65e8-10a7-6dc3-b4f37ce54ba7@froghouse.org>

On 11/15/19 3:26 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote:

> I think you will win a lot of friends if you can make something that
> will emulate MSCP devices on the QBus - I have a micro11 and microVax
> sans disk due to only having ESDI ate ST506 controllers!
>
> cheers es 73 to the hams amongst us de Nigel ve3id


Our initial disk controllers will be more old school, the RK11 and
RP11.? When we were first tossing around ideas, we considered MSCP but
put that into the "too complicated" bin to be considered later, maybe
much later.

Since then, the design for the QSIC has become more solid and a couple
implementation ideas come to mind.? One, kinda the obvious one, is to
just put it in the Soft-11.? In order to implement the USB protocol, we
decided we needed a processor and the "easy" way to do that was to just
put a soft processor inside the FPGA.? And for that processor, what
better than a PDP-11?? Okay, there might be other, better choices but no
other choice would be as good a hack.? So that's the current plan
although we haven't done it yet.? Could put the MSCP implementation into
there.

I've also been looking more into microcoding and bitslice designs and it
could be a really neat little project to build a bitslice processor into
the FPGA and microcode that to implement MSCP (rather than microcoding
it to be a PDP-11 and then programming the PDP-11).

Whether Noel or I ever do MSCP, the code for all this will be
open-sourced and even in its early stage is already up on GitHub.? It's
just the Verilog, I haven't yet gone through the exercise to figure out
what-all Xilinx/Vivado specific files need to be uploaded so someone
else could reproduce the FPGA load files but once we have prototype QSIC
hardware that's semi-working and anyone else expresses interest in
playing with this stuff, I'll work with them to figure it out.



From alan at alanlee.org  Fri Nov 15 15:54:40 2019
From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 16:54:40 -0500
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <5d162b8e-6499-f73c-d741-1d3a3c984972@jbrain.com>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1911130616040.27352@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <8bdc46ab-e9a2-0e4b-4b55-24f9cc3aabe3@gmail.com>
 <4E6F25D3-ECCC-48CF-8DE9-CD7EF76CD1BC@reanimators.org>
 <53edeaec-5f0d-a621-cd17-4203e119f470@jbrain.com>
 <377B4718-E6DA-4523-AAFB-154CD7D9BA30@shaw.ca>
 <d3ee25f3-dc58-8442-7c71-a73df4c8dc3c@jbrain.com>
 <4D0912D6-6C0B-47E9-8C11-C285B6ED1098@shaw.ca>
 <5d162b8e-6499-f73c-d741-1d3a3c984972@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <564e01460d3615d8e65568d23e547a89@alanlee.org>


Again.. I really think you are overthinking this.

MCU should set receive line coding to 8,N,1.  When in command mode, you 
don't care about parity as it is presumed the connection from the host 
machine to the modem is short and largely has integrity.  Every byte you 
receive in 8,N,1 command mode, zero the MSB before interpreting the 
character.  Also keep four binning counts of each byte received in 
command mode on whether E,O,M,S space passes a respective validity 
check.  Whichever bin over time has the highest count of successes vs 
errors is the parity scheme you use when encoding/stuffing the MSB of 
the 8,N,1 response bytes back to the host computer.

-Alan

On 2019-11-15 01:23, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote:
> If you look at the values received by an 8N1 connection from a sender
> using the different settings, you get:
> 
> 
> 	AT
> 	at
> 	At
> 	aT
> 7E1
> 	E174
> 	41D4
> 	E1D4
> 	4174
> 7O1
> 	61F4
> 	C154
> 	6154
> 	C1F4
> 7M1
> 	E1F4
> 	C1D4
> 	E1D4
> 	C1F4
> 7S1
> 	6174
> 	4154
> 	6154
> 	4174
> 8N1
> 	6174
> 	4154
> 	6154
> 	4174
> 
> Obviously, still trying to find the magic boolean logic equation to
> tease out the parity, but you could brute force it with these values
> and only aT would cause you issues requiring looking at CR (7E1 would
> send 8d, while 7S1/8N1 would send 0d.
> 
> Jim

From w2hx at w2hx.com  Fri Nov 15 15:58:22 2019
From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 21:58:22 +0000
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
In-Reply-To: <af6d6274-5681-447d-e586-7f56e329a528@ieee.org>
References: <ca3bf7c9-8ec2-e5cb-cb47-45a76f2bcd74@t-online.de>
 <1573848074830.63464@w2hx.com>
 <7bb01f63-e0b8-f596-da33-b8656b840b08@froghouse.org>,
 <af6d6274-5681-447d-e586-7f56e329a528@ieee.org>
Message-ID: <1573855105640.43984@w2hx.com>

This is interesting indeed. But if someone wanted to emulate a new function with the QSIC, would they need to be able to program in verilog (or fpga language)? I think an interesting angle using something like a BBB is that there is probably a range of languages that could be used to implement functionality. I don't know how many people know how to program an FPGA (or maybe a lot of peope do, but just not me :)

73 es GUD DX Eugene W2HX
________________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Nigel Johnson via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, November 15, 2019 3:26 PM
To: David Bridgham via cctalk
Subject: Re: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1

I think you will win a lot of friends if you can make something that
will emulate MSCP devices on the QBus - I have a micro11 and microVax
sans disk due to only having ESDI ate ST506 controllers!

cheers es 73 to the hams amongst us de Nigel ve3id


On 15/11/2019 15:23, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote:
> On 11/15/19 3:01 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote:
>> LOVE the ideas, loved it when I first heard of it. But I'm a QBUS guy! Put me on the list when (if) you ever make one for qbus. GREAT idea!
>> Eugene
>
> Along these lines, it's been a long time since we've updated the list
> regarding the QSIC project.  Have been slowly working away on the
> project here.  The QSIC is, at a high level, similar to the UniBone
> except it's on the QBUS and it's based around an FPGA rather than a BBB.
>
> Work that's gone on is that the Verilog code has been written to access
> the DDR SDRAM we have so we can support larger RAM disks and eventually
> the Able ENABLE.  Haven't tested it yet.
>
> Also have made good progress on designing the prototype circuit board to
> replace our wire-wrapped test board that's served us well so far.  Some
> final checks and it'll soon be time to send off to China and learn about
> having circuit boards assembled.  Speaking of that circuit board design,
> I put in the option to add bus termination resistors but they require a
> part that no-one seems to stock.  I had a request in to Mouser to get it
> for me and they said they'd look into it but I haven't heard anything
> back for a few weeks now.  This jogs my memory to chase them a little to
> find out what's happened.
>
> Anyway, the web page for the QSIC is here along with a KiCad rendering
> of what the prototype board would look like and a slightly more accurate
> diagram of what the internal modules are like (may still modify that
> some more as I learned about the AXI interface and may use that for
> getting to the bus and that'll change how the crossbar switch works).
>
> http://pdp10.froghouse.org/qsic/html/overview.html
>
> Dave
>
>


--
Nigel Johnson
MSc., MIEEE
VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU

Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!


You can reach me by voice on Skype:  TILBURY2591

If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday

This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way.
    Nigel Johnson <nw.johnson at ieee.org>


Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message




From paulkoning at comcast.net  Fri Nov 15 16:08:44 2019
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 17:08:44 -0500
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
In-Reply-To: <1573855105640.43984@w2hx.com>
References: <ca3bf7c9-8ec2-e5cb-cb47-45a76f2bcd74@t-online.de>
 <1573848074830.63464@w2hx.com>
 <7bb01f63-e0b8-f596-da33-b8656b840b08@froghouse.org>
 <af6d6274-5681-447d-e586-7f56e329a528@ieee.org>
 <1573855105640.43984@w2hx.com>
Message-ID: <F8E602BA-9C5B-4B53-9642-483FC71A21CE@comcast.net>



> On Nov 15, 2019, at 4:58 PM, W2HX via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> This is interesting indeed. But if someone wanted to emulate a new function with the QSIC, would they need to be able to program in verilog (or fpga language)? I think an interesting angle using something like a BBB is that there is probably a range of languages that could be used to implement functionality. I don't know how many people know how to program an FPGA (or maybe a lot of peope do, but just not me :)
> 
> 73 es GUD DX Eugene W2HX

Speaking as a software guy who's gotten into this stuff: it isn't all that hard.  It does require learning a new language (Verilog or VHDL; I picked the latter).  And it requires learning a somewhat different mindset.  Instead of writing sequences of actions where most of the time you have just one thread, you're describing all the things that all the building blocks can do as they react to inputs.  Also, you have to learn that outputs don't instantaneously appear as inputs -- VHDL calls these "signals" and models the fact that they don't become visible until the next simulation cycle.

There are simulators around that let you run VHDL (or Verilog, I assume, but I haven't done that).  Some are open source -- look at GHDL.  I've used that to create quite large models (including parts of a CDC 6600).

In other words: give it a try.  You might like it.

	paul



From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Fri Nov 15 16:21:22 2019
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 22:21:22 +0000
Subject: Quantum 2080 and 540 service manuals
In-Reply-To: <c5e4f030-d7a7-56f1-c4e3-0243921a0ae4@sydex.com>
References: <76b348ec-5aad-9cfe-a93f-2cb633a428f6@bitsavers.org>
 <dfa525c5-4704-3bb4-6c7d-ae222a301137@sydex.com>
 <2f0864a3-1584-e25b-7e1e-154bd501267e@gmail.com>,
 <c5e4f030-d7a7-56f1-c4e3-0243921a0ae4@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <BYAPR01MB56086C69C8C3ADB36515E200A3700@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>

Heads getting stuck on the ramp?
Maybe it has warn a groove in the plastic. It could be the bearings on the head assembly as well.
Dwight

________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, November 15, 2019 12:29 PM
To: allison via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Quantum 2080 and 540 service manuals

On 11/15/19 10:51 AM, allison via cctalk wrote:

> I must have about 15 maybe more of the D540s and have found them
> to be the fastest seeking of the MFM drives and also near unbreakable.
> The oldest is about 36 years old.  Use them in CP/M crates, DOS boxen,
> PDP-11s (with RQDX2/3 controllers) and  Local swap for net booted
> uVAX2000 and swap file disks on uVAXII (61K blocks is more than
> enough swap space) for VMS5.44.
>
> I've not had stiction problems... likely because I have spares!
> Its a Murphy's law thing.

The Q540 that gets used is mounted on its side in an old Mad Intelligent
Systems box with an XT clone inside.  I don't think it's stiction; the
drive spins up fine, but the initial seek fails until I cycle power a
couple of times or tap the side of the drive with a screwdriver handle.

It's of no real consequence; the contents are backed up and I have a
spare XT-IDE drive if needed.  The FH MFM drives that I've owned have
slowly failed; the FH ESDI and SCSI drives have, interestingly all
continued to work.

--Chuck


From brain at jbrain.com  Fri Nov 15 16:29:08 2019
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 16:29:08 -0600
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <0adf7aff-dcde-4787-c722-21b7f1f93127@jbrain.com>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1911130616040.27352@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <8bdc46ab-e9a2-0e4b-4b55-24f9cc3aabe3@gmail.com>
 <4E6F25D3-ECCC-48CF-8DE9-CD7EF76CD1BC@reanimators.org>
 <53edeaec-5f0d-a621-cd17-4203e119f470@jbrain.com>
 <377B4718-E6DA-4523-AAFB-154CD7D9BA30@shaw.ca>
 <d3ee25f3-dc58-8442-7c71-a73df4c8dc3c@jbrain.com>
 <4D0912D6-6C0B-47E9-8C11-C285B6ED1098@shaw.ca>
 <5d162b8e-6499-f73c-d741-1d3a3c984972@jbrain.com>
 <CBC9F6BF-3765-4970-981F-496036813B62@shaw.ca>
 <0adf7aff-dcde-4787-c722-21b7f1f93127@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <7a47aa1f-6e11-d4a6-527a-26cdb14978c1@jbrain.com>

On 11/15/2019 1:38 PM, Jim Brain wrote:
> On 11/15/2019 3:12 AM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote:
>>
>> (If it is of any consequence at this point)
>> If those vertical groups of 4 are intended to correspond to the first 
>> group of AT/at/At/aT, then you have the case bit (0x20) inverted, 
>> uppercase are bit 0x20 OFF (lower value), lower case are 0x20 ON 
>> (higher value).
> Well, the above values are what an 8N1 connections sees when the other 
> end is set to the various 7 bit parms.? I verified that the numbers 
> above are correct, case and all.

My apologies.? The case is indeed backwards... The caps lock appears to 
have become stuck on in the test machine KB.? Argh!? I know I was 
pressing a shifted A


Jim

From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net  Fri Nov 15 16:43:21 2019
From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 17:43:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: ge first transistors
Message-ID: <455673772.1863783.1573857801327.JavaMail.zimbra@centurytel.net>

>I've got a bunch of tunnel diodes; never found a practical use for them
for me.

You must not own any older Tektronix scopes then. At one time I had fourteen and there were several tunnel diodes in almost every one (trigger circuits mostly).
And their characteristics do drift with age, sometimes out of the range of adjustment
:)
-Charles

From fozztexx at fozztexx.com  Fri Nov 15 17:18:07 2019
From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 15:18:07 -0800
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <564e01460d3615d8e65568d23e547a89@alanlee.org>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1911130616040.27352@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <8bdc46ab-e9a2-0e4b-4b55-24f9cc3aabe3@gmail.com>
 <4E6F25D3-ECCC-48CF-8DE9-CD7EF76CD1BC@reanimators.org>
 <53edeaec-5f0d-a621-cd17-4203e119f470@jbrain.com>
 <377B4718-E6DA-4523-AAFB-154CD7D9BA30@shaw.ca>
 <d3ee25f3-dc58-8442-7c71-a73df4c8dc3c@jbrain.com>
 <4D0912D6-6C0B-47E9-8C11-C285B6ED1098@shaw.ca>
 <5d162b8e-6499-f73c-d741-1d3a3c984972@jbrain.com>
 <564e01460d3615d8e65568d23e547a89@alanlee.org>
Message-ID: <E523DD14-3F39-487A-B042-47FF6D2AFB00@fozztexx.com>



On Nov 15, 2019, at 1:54 PM, alan--- via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> MCU should set receive line coding to 8,N,1.  When in command mode, you don't care about parity

Actually it's in command mode that you *do* care about parity, which is why I added the parity detection in the first place. Without the parity detection there's no way for the modem to send back the command responses with the correct parity. That made it cumbersome to use tcpser when using terminals or communications software that insist on using even/odd/mark parity and would drop any characters that had the wrong parity.

--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Fri Nov 15 19:53:21 2019
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 20:53:21 -0500
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
In-Reply-To: <75d3401b-65e8-10a7-6dc3-b4f37ce54ba7@froghouse.org>
References: <ca3bf7c9-8ec2-e5cb-cb47-45a76f2bcd74@t-online.de>
 <1573848074830.63464@w2hx.com>
 <7bb01f63-e0b8-f596-da33-b8656b840b08@froghouse.org>
 <af6d6274-5681-447d-e586-7f56e329a528@ieee.org>
 <75d3401b-65e8-10a7-6dc3-b4f37ce54ba7@froghouse.org>
Message-ID: <50D736B1-CF8F-4D9A-B459-14D0B9169965@comcast.net>



> On Nov 15, 2019, at 4:22 PM, David Bridgham via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> ...
> I've also been looking more into microcoding and bitslice designs and it
> could be a really neat little project to build a bitslice processor into
> the FPGA and microcode that to implement MSCP (rather than microcoding
> it to be a PDP-11 and then programming the PDP-11).

I wonder if the UDA50 microcode can be found.  That's a bitslice (2901 ALUs plus 2910 branch controller) which presumably would be pretty easy to emulate in a small FPGA.

I once saw a bit of the source code.  It was very strange because it had two opcodes per line, one for the ALU and one for the branch controller.  Since the condition codes took a cycle to get to the branch controller, you might see weird stuff like this (paraphrased, I don't remember the actual opcodes):

	CLR R0 ; BNE label

which takes some getting used to if you're a conventional sequential programmer.  Richie Lary of PDP-8 fame did part of that microcode.

	paul


From brain at jbrain.com  Fri Nov 15 20:00:58 2019
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 20:00:58 -0600
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <291fa55ce98393ff386f363f826e06c4@alanlee.org>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <b990efe2-ac3f-6577-28c3-7db197aa58e2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911131224390.13891@shell.lmi.net>
 <5a98da41-2dc3-e3a8-6162-ac519e194e12@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <d8492e0c-a856-b5ed-f770-91b1b72ecea1@ieee.org>
 <28add96d-dad5-8b50-a400-ea7538f7f4ad@jbrain.com>
 <291fa55ce98393ff386f363f826e06c4@alanlee.org>
Message-ID: <05888379-c0fb-2651-097f-1add701a0ff4@jbrain.com>

On 11/14/2019 9:17 AM, alan at alanlee.org wrote:
>
> I think you may be over thinking this.? I suppose a system could send 
> a bit-stream where the data bits + any parity bits != 8 or the parity 
> bit isn't in the trailing MSB position.? However, for simplification 
> lets consider only that case.? A modem will always set the local line 
> coding to 8,N,1. 

TCPSER aims to emulate a modem.? I actually implemented the above 
(assume the line is 8,N,1) when I first wrote the code in 2004 or so, as 
my goal was to allow home computer BBS systems to run unmodifed using a 
serial interface to a PC, as I previously noted.? Those machines could, 
as you note, set the comm channel to 8,N,1, so all was well.

However, I made no provisions if the DTE could not run with 8,N,1.? At 
VCF-Midwest this year, I tried to put my KSR43 online, only to find it 
will only do 7 bit ASCII.? Enter FozzTexx's mods.


>
> I suppose you could have 7,N,x however the MSB of the 8-bit word 
> period would be a stop bit and would transfer through the modulated 
> transmission the same way - correctly. 
Actually, it won't.? When the 7,E,1 hits the 8,N,1 (effectively) of the 
Internet, I could not even get past the initial "ASCII or PETSCII 
screen" :-(
>
> My advise is always set the MCU line coding to 8,N,1 (or preferably 
> 1.5), strip the MSB in command RX, and manually re-add MSB parity 
> stuffing for command responses only based on some algorithm that makes 
> the most sense.
I think you may be underthinking this.? The target is not an MCU, but a 
piece of classic gear that people do not want to modify (or can't) to 
handle the internet.? TCPSER stands in for a Hayes modem and allows the 
device to connect to the Internet (or another classic machine across the 
world using the Internet as a stand in for telco lines.

Jim


From brain at jbrain.com  Fri Nov 15 20:03:38 2019
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 20:03:38 -0600
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <E523DD14-3F39-487A-B042-47FF6D2AFB00@fozztexx.com>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1911130616040.27352@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <8bdc46ab-e9a2-0e4b-4b55-24f9cc3aabe3@gmail.com>
 <4E6F25D3-ECCC-48CF-8DE9-CD7EF76CD1BC@reanimators.org>
 <53edeaec-5f0d-a621-cd17-4203e119f470@jbrain.com>
 <377B4718-E6DA-4523-AAFB-154CD7D9BA30@shaw.ca>
 <d3ee25f3-dc58-8442-7c71-a73df4c8dc3c@jbrain.com>
 <4D0912D6-6C0B-47E9-8C11-C285B6ED1098@shaw.ca>
 <5d162b8e-6499-f73c-d741-1d3a3c984972@jbrain.com>
 <564e01460d3615d8e65568d23e547a89@alanlee.org>
 <E523DD14-3F39-487A-B042-47FF6D2AFB00@fozztexx.com>
Message-ID: <29b17931-fa14-483f-22ad-e5b907c96ff5@jbrain.com>

On 11/15/2019 5:18 PM, Chris Osborn via cctalk wrote:
>
> On Nov 15, 2019, at 1:54 PM, alan--- via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> MCU should set receive line coding to 8,N,1.  When in command mode, you don't care about parity
> Actually it's in command mode that you *do* care about parity, which is why I added the parity detection in the first place. Without the parity detection there's no way for the modem to send back the command responses with the correct parity. That made it cumbersome to use tcpser when using terminals or communications software that insist on using even/odd/mark parity and would drop any characters that had the wrong parity.

And, as I noted to Chris, I think it actually makes sense to convert all 
the time, so that a 7E1 device that is trying to connect to the Internet 
can do so with a minimum of hassle.? If parity is stripped on both sides 
(C64 to tcpser to Internet to tcpser to 64, for example) and replaced 
when needed for the local classic machine, I think that's the best scenario.

Jim


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri Nov 15 20:09:18 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 18:09:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <29b17931-fa14-483f-22ad-e5b907c96ff5@jbrain.com>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1911130616040.27352@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <8bdc46ab-e9a2-0e4b-4b55-24f9cc3aabe3@gmail.com>
 <4E6F25D3-ECCC-48CF-8DE9-CD7EF76CD1BC@reanimators.org>
 <53edeaec-5f0d-a621-cd17-4203e119f470@jbrain.com>
 <377B4718-E6DA-4523-AAFB-154CD7D9BA30@shaw.ca>
 <d3ee25f3-dc58-8442-7c71-a73df4c8dc3c@jbrain.com>
 <4D0912D6-6C0B-47E9-8C11-C285B6ED1098@shaw.ca>
 <5d162b8e-6499-f73c-d741-1d3a3c984972@jbrain.com>
 <564e01460d3615d8e65568d23e547a89@alanlee.org>
 <E523DD14-3F39-487A-B042-47FF6D2AFB00@fozztexx.com>
 <29b17931-fa14-483f-22ad-e5b907c96ff5@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911151806050.13247@shell.lmi.net>

What do the various Hayes modemS do when you type
"aT" ?

What do they do when you used mixed case?
And, are they all the same?  (as mentioned before, "Hayes Compatible" was 
never completely defined.)


From tony.aiuto at gmail.com  Fri Nov 15 20:43:02 2019
From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 21:43:02 -0500
Subject: Discord
In-Reply-To: <20191115105416.6ee7feb4@officew7>
References: <000201d59bd9$b4b5a7b0$1e20f710$@classiccmp.org>
 <20191115105416.6ee7feb4@officew7>
Message-ID: <CAKGyVsUUh06EGLLcddBCYFJu-r_ESGHWc7g7waN-+guhwDG=Dw@mail.gmail.com>

>
> On Fri, 15 Nov 2019 11:25:41 -0600
> jwest--- via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> ...
>


> > In addition, mostly as an exercise to see how to do it, I set up a
> > ClassicCMP discord server. That Discord server is NOT meant to
> > replace this list, nor should it be taken to signal any less
> > commitment on my part to keeping this list running. They
> > arehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_video_games
> > fundamentally different things; Discord is great for real time text
> > chat back and forth. There are also audio and video channels if
> > people want to use that to talk verbally or via video. To get on that
> > server, here is a semi-permanent invite: https://discord.gg/U8Skw5g
> > Joining the server gets you to all the other folks who may join the
> > classiccmp discord, not just me. Of course, that could be zero ?
> > Like I said, I just did it as an exercise, and discord is how some of
> > my family and friends stay in touch. But it is there if peeps want to
> > use it.
>


> > I?d rather not turn this into a long debate of whether discord is
> > good or bad or anything like that. I?m just saying it?s there, and
> > it?s quicker to get ahold of me that way at times.
>

But debate we must, if only because we are curmudgeons.

I'm not going to debate mail vs. social media. (mail wins for
me any day). The interesting question to me is if decentralized
social media (like discord) makes sense at all. For the uninformed,
anyone can set up a discord server - but the discord identity space
is per server - not per the planet. So I can't say "follow me on discord
at 'tony'.  I have to say 'follow me at discord foo at bar'. And I have
to do that for each discord community. It doesn't scale. Compare it
to Facebook, Twitter, and the others. Once you homestead your
identity, you get it globally. That is a huge win.

What would make the concept OK is if there was a federated
identity system, such that I could post on any discord server with
an identity based on the root one I registered at. This way I could
have a single global identity..

From dab at froghouse.org  Fri Nov 15 20:57:31 2019
From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 21:57:31 -0500
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
In-Reply-To: <50D736B1-CF8F-4D9A-B459-14D0B9169965@comcast.net>
References: <ca3bf7c9-8ec2-e5cb-cb47-45a76f2bcd74@t-online.de>
 <1573848074830.63464@w2hx.com>
 <7bb01f63-e0b8-f596-da33-b8656b840b08@froghouse.org>
 <af6d6274-5681-447d-e586-7f56e329a528@ieee.org>
 <75d3401b-65e8-10a7-6dc3-b4f37ce54ba7@froghouse.org>
 <50D736B1-CF8F-4D9A-B459-14D0B9169965@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <55ce7bce-15d6-d1d7-ba5e-54bf68e52e52@froghouse.org>

On 11/15/19 20:53, Paul Koning wrote:
> I wonder if the UDA50 microcode can be found.  That's a bitslice (2901 ALUs plus 2910 branch controller) which presumably would be pretty easy to emulate in a small FPGA.


If it used Am2901 series parts, I wonder if it used Am2908s too for the
bus drivers.? We used those on our wirewrap prototype (they saved I/O
pins to the FPGA which was important at the time) but planned to go to
all DS8641s for the real thing (a 324 pin BGA package has a *lot* of I/O
pins and I've used most of them).? I guess it would be easy enough to
replicate the function of Am2908s inside the FGPA though.

Anyway, the difficult part of using the actual microcode from the UDA50
is going to be the other side of the device.? The interface to the disk
drive of the day is not going to look anything at all like an SD card.?
Not sure it'd be worth trying to fake out that interface unless yo had
some strong reason for wanting to run that microcode.


> I once saw a bit of the source code.  It was very strange because it had two opcodes per line, one for the ALU and one for the branch controller.  Since the condition codes took a cycle to get to the branch controller, you might see weird stuff like this (paraphrased, I don't remember the actual opcodes):
>
> 	CLR R0 ; BNE label
>
> which takes some getting used to if you're a conventional sequential programmer.  Richie Lary of PDP-8 fame did part of that microcode.


When I started getting more into this micro-coding stuff, Noel pointed
me to a book called Principles of Firmware Engineering in Microprogram
Control by Michael Andrews.? Interesting stuff and he presents several
designs that make this clear separation between the control portion of
your micro-instructions and the sequencing portion.



From brain at jbrain.com  Fri Nov 15 21:03:13 2019
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 21:03:13 -0600
Subject: Question about modems
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911151806050.13247@shell.lmi.net>
References: <f86a1560-5653-eeb2-9949-5fc3be0449bc@jbrain.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1911130616040.27352@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <8bdc46ab-e9a2-0e4b-4b55-24f9cc3aabe3@gmail.com>
 <4E6F25D3-ECCC-48CF-8DE9-CD7EF76CD1BC@reanimators.org>
 <53edeaec-5f0d-a621-cd17-4203e119f470@jbrain.com>
 <377B4718-E6DA-4523-AAFB-154CD7D9BA30@shaw.ca>
 <d3ee25f3-dc58-8442-7c71-a73df4c8dc3c@jbrain.com>
 <4D0912D6-6C0B-47E9-8C11-C285B6ED1098@shaw.ca>
 <5d162b8e-6499-f73c-d741-1d3a3c984972@jbrain.com>
 <564e01460d3615d8e65568d23e547a89@alanlee.org>
 <E523DD14-3F39-487A-B042-47FF6D2AFB00@fozztexx.com>
 <29b17931-fa14-483f-22ad-e5b907c96ff5@jbrain.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911151806050.13247@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <cdb6ab53-4915-f5fe-b71d-80c9297e2e09@jbrain.com>

On 11/15/2019 8:09 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> What do the various Hayes modemS do when you type
> "aT" ?

I can speak to all modems, as I gave away most of mine.

But the one I have right now has the following behavior:

AT -> OK

at -> OK

aT -> CR, no LF, essentially echoing back the CR that was sent

At -> same

AAAAAAAT -> OK

aaaaaaat -> OK

Aaaaaaat -> At behavior

aAAAAAT -> aT behavior

AaaaaaT -> OK (AT found)

aAAAAt -> OK (at found)

abcdefgAT -> OK (AT found)

abcdefgat -> OK (at found)

AbcdefaT -> aT behavior

aBCDEFAt -> At behavior

The rule seems to be:

once you find an a, save it.? If you find more as, just ignore, but if 
you see a non a non T, reset.? Once a t is found, check case with saved 
char.? If same case, detect parity and continue with command.

>
> What do they do when you used mixed case?
> And, are they all the same?? (as mentioned before, "Hayes Compatible" 
> was never completely defined.)
I have no idea.? Guess I'll have to create a small text file and have 
people pipe it into modems and see what comes out.

It's been a cool exersize, and sorry I annoyed so many people with the 
trivial details of modems :-)

Jim

-- 
Jim Brain
brain at jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com


From silent700 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 15 23:02:32 2019
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 23:02:32 -0600
Subject: Discord
In-Reply-To: <CAKGyVsUUh06EGLLcddBCYFJu-r_ESGHWc7g7waN-+guhwDG=Dw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000201d59bd9$b4b5a7b0$1e20f710$@classiccmp.org>
 <20191115105416.6ee7feb4@officew7>
 <CAKGyVsUUh06EGLLcddBCYFJu-r_ESGHWc7g7waN-+guhwDG=Dw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SFk7Q0uNuNay8hdc3rhfEXO3jtMas+wqdoR-h8ZdfeXpA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 15, 2019 at 8:43 PM Tony Aiuto via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> What would make the concept OK is if there was a federated
> identity system, such that I could post on any discord server with
> an identity based on the root one I registered at. This way I could
> have a single global identity..
>

Not pitching the service per se, but that is pretty much how Discord
works.  Your Discord account/login is persistent across all "servers"
(which are really just groups of channels with authority delegated to the
"server" admin).  It is true that to find you chatting in a specific
context, I'd need you to tell me the server you're on.  But I could still
chat directly with you if I knew your ID.

The scenario you describe is more like IRC.  There is no one "IRC", but
many servers on many networks, each with their own sets of usernames and
authentication methods (or, often, none at all).  So one must always say
"find me on channel #foo on network #bar."

That said, IRC Will Never Die.

j

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Fri Nov 15 23:27:51 2019
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 23:27:51 -0600
Subject: Discord
In-Reply-To: <CAEfH1SFk7Q0uNuNay8hdc3rhfEXO3jtMas+wqdoR-h8ZdfeXpA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000201d59bd9$b4b5a7b0$1e20f710$@classiccmp.org>
 <20191115105416.6ee7feb4@officew7>
 <CAKGyVsUUh06EGLLcddBCYFJu-r_ESGHWc7g7waN-+guhwDG=Dw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEfH1SFk7Q0uNuNay8hdc3rhfEXO3jtMas+wqdoR-h8ZdfeXpA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000601d59c3e$975a4a80$c60edf80$@classiccmp.org>

I didn't think many people would show up. I was wrong.



From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Nov 15 23:48:04 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 21:48:04 -0800
Subject: Quantum 2080 and 540 service manuals
In-Reply-To: <BYAPR01MB56086C69C8C3ADB36515E200A3700@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <76b348ec-5aad-9cfe-a93f-2cb633a428f6@bitsavers.org>
 <dfa525c5-4704-3bb4-6c7d-ae222a301137@sydex.com>
 <2f0864a3-1584-e25b-7e1e-154bd501267e@gmail.com>
 <c5e4f030-d7a7-56f1-c4e3-0243921a0ae4@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR01MB56086C69C8C3ADB36515E200A3700@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <bd3c4917-3fa5-f836-2c14-230b587f2445@sydex.com>

On 11/15/19 2:21 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote:
> Heads getting stuck on the ramp?
> Maybe it has warn a groove in the plastic. It could be the bearings on the head assembly as well.
> Dwight

Dunno--I only fire the thing up about once every 5 years or so...

--Chuck


From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Sat Nov 16 00:04:42 2019
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 00:04:42 -0600
Subject: Discord
In-Reply-To: <000601d59c3e$975a4a80$c60edf80$@classiccmp.org>
References: <000201d59bd9$b4b5a7b0$1e20f710$@classiccmp.org>
 <20191115105416.6ee7feb4@officew7>
 <CAKGyVsUUh06EGLLcddBCYFJu-r_ESGHWc7g7waN-+guhwDG=Dw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEfH1SFk7Q0uNuNay8hdc3rhfEXO3jtMas+wqdoR-h8ZdfeXpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <000601d59c3e$975a4a80$c60edf80$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs23i-JTq_OhonopNkcqGTy+GAF7V+rCSxqXCyj5w5GJCig@mail.gmail.com>

well irc seems to be broken on windows 10 for me

On Fri, Nov 15, 2019 at 11:28 PM jwest--- via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> I didn't think many people would show up. I was wrong.
>
>
>

From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Sat Nov 16 00:14:40 2019
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 22:14:40 -0800
Subject: Discord
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs23i-JTq_OhonopNkcqGTy+GAF7V+rCSxqXCyj5w5GJCig@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000201d59bd9$b4b5a7b0$1e20f710$@classiccmp.org>
 <20191115105416.6ee7feb4@officew7>
 <CAKGyVsUUh06EGLLcddBCYFJu-r_ESGHWc7g7waN-+guhwDG=Dw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEfH1SFk7Q0uNuNay8hdc3rhfEXO3jtMas+wqdoR-h8ZdfeXpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <000601d59c3e$975a4a80$c60edf80$@classiccmp.org>
 <CAA3rs23i-JTq_OhonopNkcqGTy+GAF7V+rCSxqXCyj5w5GJCig@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <68c110ad-db1d-535e-bc1b-d08ef3f6351d@jwsss.com>



On 11/15/2019 10:04 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:
> well irc seems to be broken on windows 10 for me
It's working fine for me.? I need to figure out how to get it on Android 
though.
jim
>
> On Fri, Nov 15, 2019 at 11:28 PM jwest--- via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
>> I didn't think many people would show up. I was wrong.
>>
>>
>>
>


From steven at malikoff.com  Sat Nov 16 01:01:25 2019
From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com)
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 17:01:25 +1000
Subject: Discord
In-Reply-To: <000201d59bd9$b4b5a7b0$1e20f710$@classiccmp.org>
References: <000201d59bd9$b4b5a7b0$1e20f710$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <3eed0387a68cb7c80ec5783add72876f.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>

J said
Discord is great for real time text chat back and forth. There are also audio and video channels if people want to use that to talk verbally or via video. >
> I?d rather not turn this into a long debate of whether discord is good or bad or anything like that. I?m just saying it?s there, and it?s quicker to get ahold of me that way at times.

I'm not sure if the feature of more real-time conversation on Discord would be of much if any benefit to me.

Since I am at +10 GMT most of the conversation on cctalk already happens during the small hours here, so
in the morning I have the bulk of the day's worth of US/Europe timezoned postings to browse through with
questions posed and already answered in numerous followups (and 'For Sale' items well and truly snapped up :)

If I was on after midnight local time, I guess it might be useful and I should take a look at it, but so
far I'm pretty happy with cctalk as it is now.

Steve.



From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com  Sat Nov 16 08:09:49 2019
From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson)
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 09:09:49 -0500
Subject: Discord
In-Reply-To: <3eed0387a68cb7c80ec5783add72876f.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
References: <000201d59bd9$b4b5a7b0$1e20f710$@classiccmp.org>
 <3eed0387a68cb7c80ec5783add72876f.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ2mpAj0avGp4Nc6855BCxxQLqSgdR16vR69hFR7AbC6u+N-mw@mail.gmail.com>

FWIW Medal of Honor is one of my all-time favorite games, and definitely my
favorite WW2 game. Nice job.

On Sat, Nov 16, 2019, 2:01 AM Steve Malikoff via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> J said
> Discord is great for real time text chat back and forth. There are also
> audio and video channels if people want to use that to talk verbally or via
> video. >
> > I?d rather not turn this into a long debate of whether discord is good
> or bad or anything like that. I?m just saying it?s there, and it?s quicker
> to get ahold of me that way at times.
>
> I'm not sure if the feature of more real-time conversation on Discord
> would be of much if any benefit to me.
>
> Since I am at +10 GMT most of the conversation on cctalk already happens
> during the small hours here, so
> in the morning I have the bulk of the day's worth of US/Europe timezoned
> postings to browse through with
> questions posed and already answered in numerous followups (and 'For Sale'
> items well and truly snapped up :)
>
> If I was on after midnight local time, I guess it might be useful and I
> should take a look at it, but so
> far I'm pretty happy with cctalk as it is now.
>
> Steve.
>
>
>

From stefan.skoglund at agj.net  Sat Nov 16 08:52:01 2019
From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund)
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 15:52:01 +0100
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
In-Reply-To: <ca3bf7c9-8ec2-e5cb-cb47-45a76f2bcd74@t-online.de>
References: <ca3bf7c9-8ec2-e5cb-cb47-45a76f2bcd74@t-online.de>
Message-ID: <df00f479580f7a1732b34edcf61b3eda239934fa.camel@agj.net>

fre 2019-11-15 klockan 14:07 +0100 skrev J?rg Hoppe via cctalk:
> Its been a long time since last public post about UniBone, time for
> a 
> bragging broadcast.
> 
> *What it is:*
> In case you forgot: UniBone is a plugin board to DEC PDP-11 UNIBUS 
> systems containing a BeagleBone Black.
> 
> See http://retrocmp.com/projects/unibone.
> 
> This combo can simulate PDP-11 devices embedded in a physical
> machine.
> So you can operate and repair incomplete UNIBUS PDP-11s and even
> VAXes, 
> just by emulating the missing parts.
> Disk drive emulators accept SimH image files, which can be ftp'd to
> the 
> emulator (no SDcard changing!).
> 
> As UniBone can acquire bus mastership, its also UNIBUS diagnostic 
> console, as well as stimulate individual UNIBUS lines.
> 
> Realtime stuff is implemented on BBB's PRU coprocessors.
> All programming is done in plain C/C++ under mainstream Debian Linux.
> 

Ethernet or FC connection ??
If so it would be possible to build an PDP-11 who is datacenter-
compatible today year 2019 ...

One requirement for todays datacenter (for some owners at least) is the
ability to directly connect the system to the storage system (ie
FC/SCSI or IP/iSCSI.)

Hint: with that requirement as far as i know it an ARM device in the
form of a Samsung S9 can't be data center compatible....


From stefan.skoglund at agj.net  Sat Nov 16 08:52:01 2019
From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund)
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 15:52:01 +0100
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
In-Reply-To: <ca3bf7c9-8ec2-e5cb-cb47-45a76f2bcd74@t-online.de>
References: <ca3bf7c9-8ec2-e5cb-cb47-45a76f2bcd74@t-online.de>
Message-ID: <df00f479580f7a1732b34edcf61b3eda239934fa.camel@agj.net>

fre 2019-11-15 klockan 14:07 +0100 skrev J?rg Hoppe via cctalk:
> Its been a long time since last public post about UniBone, time for
> a 
> bragging broadcast.
> 
> *What it is:*
> In case you forgot: UniBone is a plugin board to DEC PDP-11 UNIBUS 
> systems containing a BeagleBone Black.
> 
> See http://retrocmp.com/projects/unibone.
> 
> This combo can simulate PDP-11 devices embedded in a physical
> machine.
> So you can operate and repair incomplete UNIBUS PDP-11s and even
> VAXes, 
> just by emulating the missing parts.
> Disk drive emulators accept SimH image files, which can be ftp'd to
> the 
> emulator (no SDcard changing!).
> 
> As UniBone can acquire bus mastership, its also UNIBUS diagnostic 
> console, as well as stimulate individual UNIBUS lines.
> 
> Realtime stuff is implemented on BBB's PRU coprocessors.
> All programming is done in plain C/C++ under mainstream Debian Linux.
> 

Ethernet or FC connection ??
If so it would be possible to build an PDP-11 who is datacenter-
compatible today year 2019 ...

One requirement for todays datacenter (for some owners at least) is the
ability to directly connect the system to the storage system (ie
FC/SCSI or IP/iSCSI.)

Hint: with that requirement as far as i know it an ARM device in the
form of a Samsung S9 can't be data center compatible....


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Sat Nov 16 10:04:00 2019
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 08:04:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Discord
In-Reply-To: <000601d59c3e$975a4a80$c60edf80$@classiccmp.org>
References: <000201d59bd9$b4b5a7b0$1e20f710$@classiccmp.org>
 <20191115105416.6ee7feb4@officew7>
 <CAKGyVsUUh06EGLLcddBCYFJu-r_ESGHWc7g7waN-+guhwDG=Dw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEfH1SFk7Q0uNuNay8hdc3rhfEXO3jtMas+wqdoR-h8ZdfeXpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <000601d59c3e$975a4a80$c60edf80$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1911160803450.574@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>

On Fri, 15 Nov 2019, jwest--- via cctalk wrote:

> I didn't think many people would show up. I was wrong.
>

We're old, but we're hip. ;)

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Sat Nov 16 10:04:52 2019
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 08:04:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Discord
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs23i-JTq_OhonopNkcqGTy+GAF7V+rCSxqXCyj5w5GJCig@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000201d59bd9$b4b5a7b0$1e20f710$@classiccmp.org>
 <20191115105416.6ee7feb4@officew7>
 <CAKGyVsUUh06EGLLcddBCYFJu-r_ESGHWc7g7waN-+guhwDG=Dw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEfH1SFk7Q0uNuNay8hdc3rhfEXO3jtMas+wqdoR-h8ZdfeXpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <000601d59c3e$975a4a80$c60edf80$@classiccmp.org>
 <CAA3rs23i-JTq_OhonopNkcqGTy+GAF7V+rCSxqXCyj5w5GJCig@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1911160804270.574@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>

On Sat, 16 Nov 2019, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:

> well irc seems to be broken on windows 10 for me
>
That literally isn't possible.

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From j_hoppe at t-online.de  Sat Nov 16 11:45:56 2019
From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=)
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 18:45:56 +0100
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
In-Reply-To: <df00f479580f7a1732b34edcf61b3eda239934fa.camel@agj.net>
References: <ca3bf7c9-8ec2-e5cb-cb47-45a76f2bcd74@t-online.de>
 <df00f479580f7a1732b34edcf61b3eda239934fa.camel@agj.net>
Message-ID: <579d5203-cf9c-8343-26f1-3f299f03c941@t-online.de>


Stefan,
>> *What it is:*
>> In case you forgot: UniBone is a plugin board to DEC PDP-11 UNIBUS
>> systems containing a BeagleBone Black.
>>
>> See http://retrocmp.com/projects/unibone.
>>
>> This combo can simulate PDP-11 devices embedded in a physical
>> machine.
>> So you can operate and repair incomplete UNIBUS PDP-11s and even
>> VAXes,
>> just by emulating the missing parts.
>> Disk drive emulators accept SimH image files, which can be ftp'd to
>> the
>> emulator (no SDcard changing!).
> 
> Ethernet or FC connection ??
> If so it would be possible to build an PDP-11 who is datacenter-
> compatible today year 2019 ...
> 
> One requirement for todays datacenter (for some owners at least) is the
> ability to directly connect the system to the storage system (ie
> FC/SCSI or IP/iSCSI.)
> 
> Hint: with that requirement as far as i know it an ARM device in the
> form of a Samsung S9 can't be data center compatible....
Mot clear to me what "data center compatibility" for a PDP-11 means.

Anyhow, the BeagleBone runs Debian Linux, has an Ethernet port and the 
emulation software is a plain Linux application.
So all emulator binaries and all PDP-11 disk images or other data can 
reside anwhere in the world and are not bound to the UniBone SDcard.

Joerg

From j_hoppe at t-online.de  Sat Nov 16 11:45:56 2019
From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=)
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 18:45:56 +0100
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
In-Reply-To: <df00f479580f7a1732b34edcf61b3eda239934fa.camel@agj.net>
References: <ca3bf7c9-8ec2-e5cb-cb47-45a76f2bcd74@t-online.de>
 <df00f479580f7a1732b34edcf61b3eda239934fa.camel@agj.net>
Message-ID: <579d5203-cf9c-8343-26f1-3f299f03c941@t-online.de>


Stefan,
>> *What it is:*
>> In case you forgot: UniBone is a plugin board to DEC PDP-11 UNIBUS
>> systems containing a BeagleBone Black.
>>
>> See http://retrocmp.com/projects/unibone.
>>
>> This combo can simulate PDP-11 devices embedded in a physical
>> machine.
>> So you can operate and repair incomplete UNIBUS PDP-11s and even
>> VAXes,
>> just by emulating the missing parts.
>> Disk drive emulators accept SimH image files, which can be ftp'd to
>> the
>> emulator (no SDcard changing!).
> 
> Ethernet or FC connection ??
> If so it would be possible to build an PDP-11 who is datacenter-
> compatible today year 2019 ...
> 
> One requirement for todays datacenter (for some owners at least) is the
> ability to directly connect the system to the storage system (ie
> FC/SCSI or IP/iSCSI.)
> 
> Hint: with that requirement as far as i know it an ARM device in the
> form of a Samsung S9 can't be data center compatible....
Mot clear to me what "data center compatibility" for a PDP-11 means.

Anyhow, the BeagleBone runs Debian Linux, has an Ethernet port and the 
emulation software is a plain Linux application.
So all emulator binaries and all PDP-11 disk images or other data can 
reside anwhere in the world and are not bound to the UniBone SDcard.

Joerg

From couryhouse at aol.com  Sat Nov 16 12:20:57 2019
From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE)
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 18:20:57 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: ge first transistors
References: <935128283.788393.1573928457451.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <935128283.788393.1573928457451@mail.yahoo.com>


We would love tunnel diodes in packaging for our semiconductor? display ay smecc ed#
On Friday, November 15, 2019 charlesmorris800--- via cctalk <charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net; cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>I've got a bunch of tunnel diodes; never found a practical use for them
for me.

You must not own any older Tektronix scopes then. At one time I had fourteen and there were several tunnel diodes in almost every one (trigger circuits mostly).
And their characteristics do drift with age, sometimes out of the range of adjustment
:)
-Charles

From couryhouse at aol.com  Sat Nov 16 12:20:57 2019
From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE)
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 18:20:57 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: ge first transistors
References: <935128283.788393.1573928457451.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <935128283.788393.1573928457451@mail.yahoo.com>


We would love tunnel diodes in packaging for our semiconductor? display ay smecc ed#
On Friday, November 15, 2019 charlesmorris800--- via cctalk <charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net; cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>I've got a bunch of tunnel diodes; never found a practical use for them
for me.

You must not own any older Tektronix scopes then. At one time I had fourteen and there were several tunnel diodes in almost every one (trigger circuits mostly).
And their characteristics do drift with age, sometimes out of the range of adjustment
:)
-Charles

From doc at vaxen.net  Sat Nov 16 07:32:36 2019
From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley)
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 07:32:36 -0600
Subject: Waay OT, IRC on Win10, was Re: Discord
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs23i-JTq_OhonopNkcqGTy+GAF7V+rCSxqXCyj5w5GJCig@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000201d59bd9$b4b5a7b0$1e20f710$@classiccmp.org>
 <20191115105416.6ee7feb4@officew7>
 <CAKGyVsUUh06EGLLcddBCYFJu-r_ESGHWc7g7waN-+guhwDG=Dw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEfH1SFk7Q0uNuNay8hdc3rhfEXO3jtMas+wqdoR-h8ZdfeXpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <000601d59c3e$975a4a80$c60edf80$@classiccmp.org>
 <CAA3rs23i-JTq_OhonopNkcqGTy+GAF7V+rCSxqXCyj5w5GJCig@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f7fc2312-c281-f3cc-52b3-3c4c582a8335@vaxen.net>

On 11/16/19 12:04 AM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:
> well irc seems to be broken on windows 10 for me

   Windows 10 is actually the first Windows in which IRC is correctly 
supported.

1. Enable Windows Subsystem for Linux.
2. Get the (free) Linux distribution of choice from the MS Store.
3. Use your distribution's package management tools, apt or yum etc, to 
install your favorite CLI IRC client.
4. PROFIT!

   I'll just grab my hat on the way out...


	Doc

From fritzm at fritzm.org  Sat Nov 16 16:54:10 2019
From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller)
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 14:54:10 -0800
Subject: RX01 wants 
Message-ID: <D02A4EAB-B5AC-4524-A92E-5367930CD6D0@fritzm.org>

Hi all,

I recently picked up a ?tabletop? RX01 drive for cheaps.  So now I?m in the market for:

- RK11 controller
- cables
- rack ears, rails (how was this done?)
- formatted media

If anybody here might have any of this and like to work out a deal, feel free to let me know off-list!

   thanks much,
     ?FritzM.



From bob099 at centurytel.net  Sat Nov 16 17:49:45 2019
From: bob099 at centurytel.net (Bob Yates)
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 17:49:45 -0600
Subject: Some SCSI drives for sell at ShopGoodWill.com
Message-ID: <1119c42b-4e7a-6d70-e7a0-867d05c5039a@centurytel.net>

Watch out for shipping charges

https://www.shopgoodwill.com/Item/80102424

https://www.shopgoodwill.com/Item/80112091


From w2hx at w2hx.com  Sat Nov 16 18:56:29 2019
From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 00:56:29 +0000
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
In-Reply-To: <579d5203-cf9c-8343-26f1-3f299f03c941@t-online.de>
References: <ca3bf7c9-8ec2-e5cb-cb47-45a76f2bcd74@t-online.de>
 <df00f479580f7a1732b34edcf61b3eda239934fa.camel@agj.net>,
 <579d5203-cf9c-8343-26f1-3f299f03c941@t-online.de>
Message-ID: <1573952192961.45470@w2hx.com>

Is the BBB not fast enough to do Qbus? Meaning, for qbus, would a FPGA be necessary? Or was this just the op's choice among many possible options? 

It does seem useful to have this thing run linux and ethernet and be able to pass files (data and programs) back and forth very easily. the FPGA approach seems more technically challenging but seems less universal (to my limited mind).  It would seem a BBB you could load software, test, and reload as easily as copying some executable code (I dont know if that is correct or an over simplification). whereas the FPGA sounds like it needs to be recompiled/re-burned each time?

I dont know whether an RPi could work or if the BBB is needed for speed etc.

Eugene

________________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of J?rg Hoppe via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2019 12:45 PM
To: Stefan Skoglund; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1

Stefan,
>> *What it is:*
>> In case you forgot: UniBone is a plugin board to DEC PDP-11 UNIBUS
>> systems containing a BeagleBone Black.
>>
>> See http://retrocmp.com/projects/unibone.
>>
>> This combo can simulate PDP-11 devices embedded in a physical
>> machine.
>> So you can operate and repair incomplete UNIBUS PDP-11s and even
>> VAXes,
>> just by emulating the missing parts.
>> Disk drive emulators accept SimH image files, which can be ftp'd to
>> the
>> emulator (no SDcard changing!).
>
> Ethernet or FC connection ??
> If so it would be possible to build an PDP-11 who is datacenter-
> compatible today year 2019 ...
>
> One requirement for todays datacenter (for some owners at least) is the
> ability to directly connect the system to the storage system (ie
> FC/SCSI or IP/iSCSI.)
>
> Hint: with that requirement as far as i know it an ARM device in the
> form of a Samsung S9 can't be data center compatible....
Mot clear to me what "data center compatibility" for a PDP-11 means.

Anyhow, the BeagleBone runs Debian Linux, has an Ethernet port and the
emulation software is a plain Linux application.
So all emulator binaries and all PDP-11 disk images or other data can
reside anwhere in the world and are not bound to the UniBone SDcard.

Joerg

From w2hx at w2hx.com  Sat Nov 16 18:56:29 2019
From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 00:56:29 +0000
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
In-Reply-To: <579d5203-cf9c-8343-26f1-3f299f03c941@t-online.de>
References: <ca3bf7c9-8ec2-e5cb-cb47-45a76f2bcd74@t-online.de>
 <df00f479580f7a1732b34edcf61b3eda239934fa.camel@agj.net>,
 <579d5203-cf9c-8343-26f1-3f299f03c941@t-online.de>
Message-ID: <1573952192961.45470@w2hx.com>

Is the BBB not fast enough to do Qbus? Meaning, for qbus, would a FPGA be necessary? Or was this just the op's choice among many possible options? 

It does seem useful to have this thing run linux and ethernet and be able to pass files (data and programs) back and forth very easily. the FPGA approach seems more technically challenging but seems less universal (to my limited mind).  It would seem a BBB you could load software, test, and reload as easily as copying some executable code (I dont know if that is correct or an over simplification). whereas the FPGA sounds like it needs to be recompiled/re-burned each time?

I dont know whether an RPi could work or if the BBB is needed for speed etc.

Eugene

________________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of J?rg Hoppe via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2019 12:45 PM
To: Stefan Skoglund; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1

Stefan,
>> *What it is:*
>> In case you forgot: UniBone is a plugin board to DEC PDP-11 UNIBUS
>> systems containing a BeagleBone Black.
>>
>> See http://retrocmp.com/projects/unibone.
>>
>> This combo can simulate PDP-11 devices embedded in a physical
>> machine.
>> So you can operate and repair incomplete UNIBUS PDP-11s and even
>> VAXes,
>> just by emulating the missing parts.
>> Disk drive emulators accept SimH image files, which can be ftp'd to
>> the
>> emulator (no SDcard changing!).
>
> Ethernet or FC connection ??
> If so it would be possible to build an PDP-11 who is datacenter-
> compatible today year 2019 ...
>
> One requirement for todays datacenter (for some owners at least) is the
> ability to directly connect the system to the storage system (ie
> FC/SCSI or IP/iSCSI.)
>
> Hint: with that requirement as far as i know it an ARM device in the
> form of a Samsung S9 can't be data center compatible....
Mot clear to me what "data center compatibility" for a PDP-11 means.

Anyhow, the BeagleBone runs Debian Linux, has an Ethernet port and the
emulation software is a plain Linux application.
So all emulator binaries and all PDP-11 disk images or other data can
reside anwhere in the world and are not bound to the UniBone SDcard.

Joerg

From aek at bitsavers.org  Sat Nov 16 19:23:05 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 17:23:05 -0800
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
Message-ID: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>


https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=21558&p=442092#p442092

if you look at the pictures from april, they have an arduino talking to a 3278

any ideas who 'ajk' in austin might be?


From elson at pico-systems.com  Sat Nov 16 21:28:19 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 21:28:19 -0600
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
In-Reply-To: <1573952192961.45470@w2hx.com>
References: <ca3bf7c9-8ec2-e5cb-cb47-45a76f2bcd74@t-online.de>
 <df00f479580f7a1732b34edcf61b3eda239934fa.camel@agj.net>,
 <579d5203-cf9c-8343-26f1-3f299f03c941@t-online.de>
 <1573952192961.45470@w2hx.com>
Message-ID: <5DD0BE53.5090806@pico-systems.com>

On 11/16/2019 06:56 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote:
> Is the BBB not fast enough to do Qbus? Meaning, for qbus, would a FPGA be necessary? Or was this just the op's choice among many possible options?
>
>
The PRU on the Beagle Bone Black is pair of 200 MHz 32-bit 
microcontrollers which can do all sorts of I/O tasks.
There is a limit on the number of direct I/O lines 
available, however, so that may not be so simple.  I've used 
them
for 8-bit ports, plus a few control lines, and that all 
worked great.  There is a bit more latency if you need to
use non-direct GPIO pins to the PRU, but they still are 
pretty fast.

The PRU has direct, 5ns access to a limited amount of shared 
memory, but can access the ARM CPU's memory
with some additional delay.  So, I think you could probably 
do a Q-bus, but might have to go through some
contortions to get enough I/O pins and memory for larger 
transfers.

Jon

From derschjo at gmail.com  Sat Nov 16 23:43:06 2019
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 21:43:06 -0800
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
In-Reply-To: <1573952192961.45470@w2hx.com>
References: <ca3bf7c9-8ec2-e5cb-cb47-45a76f2bcd74@t-online.de>
 <df00f479580f7a1732b34edcf61b3eda239934fa.camel@agj.net>
 <579d5203-cf9c-8343-26f1-3f299f03c941@t-online.de>
 <1573952192961.45470@w2hx.com>
Message-ID: <CADBZjLZfKcYJAcMnJTSjc0J+wrrEP6t3sap0KaCFFRMLW31f_w@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 16, 2019 at 4:59 PM W2HX via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> Is the BBB not fast enough to do Qbus? Meaning, for qbus, would a FPGA be
> necessary? Or was this just the op's choice among many possible options?
>
> It does seem useful to have this thing run linux and ethernet and be able
> to pass files (data and programs) back and forth very easily. the FPGA
> approach seems more technically challenging but seems less universal (to my
> limited mind).  It would seem a BBB you could load software, test, and
> reload as easily as copying some executable code (I dont know if that is
> correct or an over simplification). whereas the FPGA sounds like it needs
> to be recompiled/re-burned each time?
>

My personal experience with the Unibone is that it's very easy to work
with.  Starting with zero knowledge of Joerg's platform I wrote an
RK11/RK05 emulation in about a week.  MSCP took longer (about a month), but
that was entirely due to the complexity of the MSCP spec.  Joerg has done
all the hard work here and has provided a really useful set of tools for
building device emulations.

I hope to have some time to do a few more devices soon -- TMSCP is on my
list, along with TC11 and RX11... I'm taking requests if anyone has 'em :).

- Josh

>
>

From steven at malikoff.com  Sun Nov 17 00:41:48 2019
From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 16:41:48 +1000
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
In-Reply-To: <579d5203-cf9c-8343-26f1-3f299f03c941@t-online.de>
References: <ca3bf7c9-8ec2-e5cb-cb47-45a76f2bcd74@t-online.de>
 <df00f479580f7a1732b34edcf61b3eda239934fa.camel@agj.net>
 <579d5203-cf9c-8343-26f1-3f299f03c941@t-online.de>
Message-ID: <b29bbb3a34f379ee92a24a29e8b5e975.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>

Joerg said
>>> *What it is:*
>>> In case you forgot: UniBone is a plugin board to DEC PDP-11 UNIBUS
>>> systems containing a BeagleBone Black.
>>>
>>> See http://retrocmp.com/projects/unibone.

Is it possible to get it as a "kit+" where the SMD components only are already soldered onto
the bare board, but all the rest left for those who are ok with a normal soldering iron but
not confident on doing the SMD?


From allisonportable at gmail.com  Sat Nov 16 16:12:57 2019
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 17:12:57 -0500
Subject: Quantum 2080 and 540 service manuals
In-Reply-To: <bd3c4917-3fa5-f836-2c14-230b587f2445@sydex.com>
References: <76b348ec-5aad-9cfe-a93f-2cb633a428f6@bitsavers.org>
 <dfa525c5-4704-3bb4-6c7d-ae222a301137@sydex.com>
 <2f0864a3-1584-e25b-7e1e-154bd501267e@gmail.com>
 <c5e4f030-d7a7-56f1-c4e3-0243921a0ae4@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR01MB56086C69C8C3ADB36515E200A3700@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <bd3c4917-3fa5-f836-2c14-230b587f2445@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <7309b616-fc84-e08c-7a4c-064307ad7d9a@gmail.com>

On 11/16/19 12:48 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote:
> On 11/15/19 2:21 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote:
>> Heads getting stuck on the ramp?
>> Maybe it has warn a groove in the plastic. It could be the bearings on the head assembly as well.
>> Dwight
> 
> Dunno--I only fire the thing up about once every 5 years or so...
> 
> --Chuck
> 

Mine are in the once a year for the lest frequently used and a few at
least once a week.

I find them bullet proof.

Allison

From j_hoppe at t-online.de  Sun Nov 17 00:44:19 2019
From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 07:44:19 +0100
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
Message-ID: <a3f194ce-4574-e846-2957-c4895bdde751@t-online.de>

The question "FPGA or not?" keeps me still awake at night, so some 
rambling here!

 > Is the BBB not fast enough to do Qbus? Meaning, for qbus, would a 
FPGA be necessary?
 > Or was this just the op's choice among many possible options?

I was considering a FPGA solution first, even had a Xilinx ZYNQ training 
for that.
But switched to BeagleBone PRU soon for several reasons (many 
non-technical ones).

Speed is essential. OK, UniBus/QBus are asynchronuous, so you can delay 
bus cycles
when your emulated devices need processing time.
But the emulator has to watch bus activity in realtime for register 
accesses to emulated devices.
Problem here is not ARM processing power (1+ GHz is fast enough), but 
delays in the GPIO
access and random code delays by Linux task switching and RAM refreshes 
and the like.
So you need to have some realtime logic on the bottom of all the C code.

UniBone should be "community friendly", a FPGA would mean:
- code developers need VHDL/Verilog skills and a special tool chain
- kit builders need to program the FPGA and solder these damn fine pitch 
parts.
- Technically, a interface between ARM core and FPGA is time-critical,
would not work on RPi FPGA shields. So either you implement EVERYTHING
in FPGA, or you are bound to some FPGA SoC demo boards.

As the BeagleBone has these realtime PRUs:
- all development is done in C/C++, familiar cross platform debugging in 
Eclipse.
- the edit-compile-debug cycle is very fast: 10 seconds for a partial 
recompile & program start when
developing remote from a modern PC.
- The whole toolchain (gnu gcc and PRU C commpiler) also runs on the BBB 
itself, so you can
develop new code immediately.
- BBB is slim enough to fit in a DEC card slot, is cheap (down to $60 
now) and will be available for years.
- big Debian/BeagleBone community behind,

Drawbacks of the ARM+PRU approach were:
- the realtime stuff is done with sequential code, so manual 
optimization was needed.
- the PRU code&RAM space is limited, design can not be scaled up endlessly.
- limited pin count available, a GPIO multiplier was needed.


UniBone is a success because indeed several contributors accepted it.

Despite choosing BBB, I wasn't sure for long wether that ARM+PRU 
approach wouldn't be a dead end technology.
There was not much development on the BeagleBones for 5 years, but with 
the new
BBONE-AI, everything has changed.
TI followed the "Linux ARM + coprocessors" road here in a spectacular way.
The mandatory move to "multi core, GHz, RAM, WiFi, GBit Ethernet, USB3" 
has been done too.


 > It does seem useful to have this thing run linux and ethernet and be 
able to pass
 > files (data and programs) back and forth very easily.
 > the FPGA approach seems more technically challenging but seems less 
universal (to my limited mind).
 > It would seem a BBB you could load software, test, and reload as 
easily as
 > copying some executable code (I dont know if that is correct or an 
over simplification).
 > whereas the FPGA sounds like it needs to be recompiled/re-burned each 
time?
All true, see above.
 >
 > I dont know whether an RPi could work or if the BBB is needed for 
speed etc.
RPi's are faster and have more ARM cores than BBB, but thats in fact not 
needed.
"Realtime determinism" is the keyword here, as well as GPIO speed.
BBB PRUs can toggle GPIOs with 50+MHz.

regards,
Joerg


From useddec at gmail.com  Sun Nov 17 03:17:50 2019
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 03:17:50 -0600
Subject: RX01 wants
In-Reply-To: <D02A4EAB-B5AC-4524-A92E-5367930CD6D0@fritzm.org>
References: <D02A4EAB-B5AC-4524-A92E-5367930CD6D0@fritzm.org>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuNHr6u05AAEk6kyKi++jDLkWPVhuEP-2Dzm8QWps7HMBg@mail.gmail.com>

I think you mean RX11.  I'll see if I have any I can spare. Isn't the
BC05L-15 folded up in the case?
Or did they put a short one to the back of the box?  I can't remember now.

There are 3 or so screws on on each side that hold the bottom of the box
on. The same screw
 and holes are used for the slides. I'll look for slides also. Which are
you on located?I know
someone who was looking for a box last year.

Are they the old Calcomp cast aluminum, or the newer DEC 70 class drives?
The DEC ones
can sometimes be converted to RX02s. I think the older (RX01 only) were the
M7726 and M7727.
The newer RX02 boards, M7744 and M7745, can be used for either.
DISCLAIMER!! I'm taking
the board numbers off the top of my head. They could be wrong.

Paul



On Sat, Nov 16, 2019 at 4:54 PM Fritz Mueller via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I recently picked up a ?tabletop? RX01 drive for cheaps.  So now I?m in
> the market for:
>
> - RK11 controller
> - cables
> - rack ears, rails (how was this done?)
> - formatted media
>
> If anybody here might have any of this and like to work out a deal, feel
> free to let me know off-list!
>
>    thanks much,
>      ?FritzM.
>
>
>

From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 17 06:19:07 2019
From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 12:19:07 +0000
Subject: RX01 wants
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuNHr6u05AAEk6kyKi++jDLkWPVhuEP-2Dzm8QWps7HMBg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <D02A4EAB-B5AC-4524-A92E-5367930CD6D0@fritzm.org>
 <CACwhfuNHr6u05AAEk6kyKi++jDLkWPVhuEP-2Dzm8QWps7HMBg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHkUCCx9A1g4n7MB7weXj5VLD2dWtaqHqz+915MeY8HpoHuQ=Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 17, 2019 at 9:18 AM Paul Anderson via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> The DEC ones
> can sometimes be converted to RX02s. I think the older (RX01 only) were the
> M7726 and M7727.
> The newer RX02 boards, M7744 and M7745, can be used for either.
> DISCLAIMER!! I'm taking
> the board numbers off the top of my head. They could be wrong.

I think the boards are very different and thus easily distinguished :

The RX02 boards (which can be set to RX01 mode with a DIP switch on
the controller board) :

Are interconnected by a 20 way cable ending in Berg connectors
The controller board has a pair of 2901s (40 pin chips) and a 2 position
DIP switch on it.

The RX01 boards :
Are interconnected by a 16 way cable with DIL headers
The controller board has no 40 pin ICs, no DIP switch. But it has
a 36 way DEC-style edge connector for a KM11 board

-tony

From dab at froghouse.org  Sun Nov 17 09:12:08 2019
From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 10:12:08 -0500
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
In-Reply-To: <1573952192961.45470@w2hx.com>
References: <ca3bf7c9-8ec2-e5cb-cb47-45a76f2bcd74@t-online.de>
 <df00f479580f7a1732b34edcf61b3eda239934fa.camel@agj.net>
 <579d5203-cf9c-8343-26f1-3f299f03c941@t-online.de>
 <1573952192961.45470@w2hx.com>
Message-ID: <6cc89c7b-ae62-910c-5555-12e47ae7828a@froghouse.org>


On 11/16/19 19:56, W2HX via cctalk wrote:
> Is the BBB not fast enough to do Qbus? Meaning, for qbus, would a FPGA be necessary? Or was this just the op's choice among many possible options? 


I'd think that PRU in the BBB ought to be able to handle the QBUS
easily.? A state-machine in an FPGA seemed to me the more
straightforward way to implement bus cycles but absolutely that's not
the only possible choice.? In fact, that brings up one of the things
that I'm really enjoying about hardware development with FPGAs.? Once I
get hardware built with an FPGA in the middle, I have a wide range of
implementation options for any particular bit I'm building.? I can use
combinational logic, state-machines, micro-coding, or, with a soft
processor, I can approach it with software.? In fact, I can choose
different answers for the different pieces of the problem.? I quite
enjoy that flexibility even though it can be an excess of options at times.


> It does seem useful to have this thing run linux and ethernet and be able to pass files (data and programs) back and forth very easily. the FPGA approach seems more technically challenging but seems less universal (to my limited mind).  It would seem a BBB you could load software, test, and reload as easily as copying some executable code (I dont know if that is correct or an over simplification). whereas the FPGA sounds like it needs to be recompiled/re-burned each time?


Yes, you do have to compile code for the FPGA but you have to compile
your code for the BBB too.? While I like the command-line interface to
gcc better than the GUI for Vivado (the Xilinx FPGA dev tool), I would
prefer to just be able to drive it all from a Makefile, either way
there's a compile step.? Eventually I intend to make loading new code
into the QSIC as simple as copying the binary file to an SD card or USB
thumb drive to update the flash.? Loading new code over Ethernet?? Not
sure I'll ever manage that one.



From u.tagge at gmx.de  Sun Nov 17 05:59:08 2019
From: u.tagge at gmx.de (Ulrich Tagge)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 12:59:08 +0100
Subject: RX01 wants
In-Reply-To: <D02A4EAB-B5AC-4524-A92E-5367930CD6D0@fritzm.org>
References: <D02A4EAB-B5AC-4524-A92E-5367930CD6D0@fritzm.org>
Message-ID: <565c203a-d48d-ea8e-3039-fc46b0a77ed3@gmx.de>

Hi Fritz,
I'm interested in the RX01 Drive and equipment.
Where is the stuff located?

Many Greetings
Ulrich

From j_hoppe at t-online.de  Sun Nov 17 07:59:49 2019
From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 14:59:49 +0100
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
Message-ID: <825c8a67-ae5c-f93b-9b73-b993787db229@t-online.de>

>>>> *What it is:*
>>>> In case you forgot: UniBone is a plugin board to DEC PDP-11 UNIBUS
>>>> systems containing a BeagleBone Black.
>>>>
>>>> See http://retrocmp.com/projects/unibone.
>
> Is it possible to get it as a "kit+" where the SMD components only are already soldered onto
> the bare board, but all the rest left for those who are ok with a normal soldering iron but
> not confident on doing the SMD?

Yes, can do that.
Joerg


From fritzm at fritzm.org  Sun Nov 17 13:17:21 2019
From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 11:17:21 -0800
Subject: RX01 wants 
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuNHr6u05AAEk6kyKi++jDLkWPVhuEP-2Dzm8QWps7HMBg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <D02A4EAB-B5AC-4524-A92E-5367930CD6D0@fritzm.org>
 <CACwhfuNHr6u05AAEk6kyKi++jDLkWPVhuEP-2Dzm8QWps7HMBg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <703C27A6-A76E-40A4-90D9-A395D2CEC026@fritzm.org>

Hi Paul,

> I think you mean RX11.

Ah, yes ? I typo?d that, thanks!

> Isn't the BC05L-15 folded up in the case? Or did they put a short one to the back of the box?  I can't remember now.

I?ll have a look to remind myself when I get downstairs later today.  IIRC, everything is brought out to D-shell connectors on the back of the box?

> Which are you on located? I know someone who was looking for a box last year.

I?m in Oakland, CA.  I?d gladly pass the box on to some other collector if I can find rails. 

> Are they the old Calcomp cast aluminum, or the newer DEC 70 class drives? The DEC ones 
> can sometimes be converted to RX02s. I think the older (RX01 only) were the M7726 and M7727.

Will check and post back.

   Thanks!
     ?FritzM.



From fritzm at fritzm.org  Sun Nov 17 13:20:42 2019
From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 11:20:42 -0800
Subject: RX01 wants 
In-Reply-To: <565c203a-d48d-ea8e-3039-fc46b0a77ed3@gmx.de>
References: <D02A4EAB-B5AC-4524-A92E-5367930CD6D0@fritzm.org>
 <565c203a-d48d-ea8e-3039-fc46b0a77ed3@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <E3046060-8995-4D47-8230-69B0C385A7F4@fritzm.org>

Hi Ulrich,

> On Nov 17, 2019, at 3:59 AM, Ulrich Tagge via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> I'm interested in the RX01 Drive and equipment.
> Where is the stuff located?

Unfortunately, the list in my email was stuff I wish to buy, not sell :-)

Sorry for being unclear!

    --FritzM.



From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Sun Nov 17 13:25:02 2019
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 14:25:02 -0500
Subject: RX01 wants
In-Reply-To: <703C27A6-A76E-40A4-90D9-A395D2CEC026@fritzm.org>
References: <D02A4EAB-B5AC-4524-A92E-5367930CD6D0@fritzm.org>
 <CACwhfuNHr6u05AAEk6kyKi++jDLkWPVhuEP-2Dzm8QWps7HMBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <703C27A6-A76E-40A4-90D9-A395D2CEC026@fritzm.org>
Message-ID: <CAALmimnfpKjH+KqCU0VPEq1DiE1zDjEOpsYEDvyJho3LrWSs5g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 17, 2019 at 2:17 PM Fritz Mueller via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> > Isn't the BC05L-15 folded up in the case? Or did they put a short one to the back of the box?  I can't remember now.
>
> I?ll have a look to remind myself when I get downstairs later today.  IIRC, everything is brought out to D-shell connectors on the back of the box?

Yes.  The table-top enclosure has IIRC a small board with a 40-pin
Berg and DB25 on it.  Systems that came with a DB25 disk drive cable
included the early DECmates (VT78 and DECmate I) and the MINC-11.
Same pinout everywhere.  The disk pedestal for the DECmate I
definitely has a passive board inside for the DB25-Berg-40 transition.

For the DECmate I, there's a DC37-DB25 cable from the CPU. For the
MINC-11, there is IIRC a 40-pin-to-DB25 cable that goes into the RXV21
(same pinouts as the RX11).

I don't remember any Unibus systems using the desktop RX01 enclosure
but it would work with the right cabling.  For the short term, you can
get a 5-10' 40-pin cable and just run it from the RX11 to the RX01
controller board, but you wouldn't be able to close the drive box up.

If you are just looking to remove the drive from the box and
rack-mount it, they used the standard "Parkerized" grey-finish steel
slide rails that were common in 1970s DEC gear.

The box is kind of fun, and was standard for word processors and the
MINC-11 but I can understand wanting a rackable system.

-ethan

From cube1 at charter.net  Sun Nov 17 13:40:56 2019
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 13:40:56 -0600
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <08905dbc-f786-460b-4efc-6d57f4272b62@charter.net>

Neat.

On 11/16/2019 7:23 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> 
> https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=21558&p=442092#p442092
> 
> if you look at the pictures from april, they have an arduino talking to a 3278
> 
> any ideas who 'ajk' in austin might be?
> 
> 

From fritzm at fritzm.org  Sun Nov 17 13:45:04 2019
From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 11:45:04 -0800
Subject: RX01 wants
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimnfpKjH+KqCU0VPEq1DiE1zDjEOpsYEDvyJho3LrWSs5g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <D02A4EAB-B5AC-4524-A92E-5367930CD6D0@fritzm.org>
 <CACwhfuNHr6u05AAEk6kyKi++jDLkWPVhuEP-2Dzm8QWps7HMBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <703C27A6-A76E-40A4-90D9-A395D2CEC026@fritzm.org>
 <CAALmimnfpKjH+KqCU0VPEq1DiE1zDjEOpsYEDvyJho3LrWSs5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3A9EC653-0518-4B3F-9F55-AEB22B45F790@fritzm.org>

Hi Ethan,

> On Nov 17, 2019, at 11:25 AM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
> The box is kind of fun, and was standard for word processors and the
> MINC-11 but I can understand wanting a rackable system.

Thanks for the info!

I?m all for keeping things intact when possible, so I?d also be happy to do a trade for a rackable RX drive if anybody is interested.  Otherwise, would definitely want to pass the box on to any interested collector.

  --FritzM.


From iain at csp-partnership.co.uk  Sun Nov 17 14:28:49 2019
From: iain at csp-partnership.co.uk (Dr Iain Maoileoin)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 20:28:49 +0000
Subject: old PDP/DEC PSU hardware question
Message-ID: <629F4CCF-8C32-4548-A3CD-A28DB1D454D7@csp-partnership.co.uk>

I have a query out on VCFed, but I am not gettin gany interest.  Neither did my 2015 request on a similar topic - must be the wrong forum.

Advice please: where is the best place to get some troubleshooting tips on debugging a DIGITAL H7202B power supply?
I have 2 supplies that are giving me trouble.  I am competent at digital work, much less so on switch-mode and analogue
(555 is an analogue in my books!).  I have variacs  scopes, logic analysers, voltmeters but no skill ;-(

Any advice?

From allisonportable at gmail.com  Sun Nov 17 15:02:11 2019
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 16:02:11 -0500
Subject: RX01 wants
In-Reply-To: <703C27A6-A76E-40A4-90D9-A395D2CEC026@fritzm.org>
References: <D02A4EAB-B5AC-4524-A92E-5367930CD6D0@fritzm.org>
 <CACwhfuNHr6u05AAEk6kyKi++jDLkWPVhuEP-2Dzm8QWps7HMBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <703C27A6-A76E-40A4-90D9-A395D2CEC026@fritzm.org>
Message-ID: <61aa29b7-9dcb-0719-8529-d82a917517e2@gmail.com>

On 11/17/19 2:17 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote:
> Hi Paul,
> 
>> I think you mean RX11.
> 
> Ah, yes ? I typo?d that, thanks!
> 
>> Isn't the BC05L-15 folded up in the case? Or did they put a short one to the back of the box?  I can't remember now.
> 
> I?ll have a look to remind myself when I get downstairs later today.  IIRC, everything is brought out to D-shell connectors on the back of the box?
> 
>> Which are you on located? I know someone who was looking for a box last year.
> 
> I?m in Oakland, CA.  I?d gladly pass the box on to some other collector if I can find rails. 
> 
>> Are they the old Calcomp cast aluminum, or the newer DEC 70 class drives? The DEC ones 
>> can sometimes be converted to RX02s. I think the older (RX01 only) were the M7726 and M7727.

RX02 conversion required two things, both boards from RX02.  The drives
are not an issue as I have done it.  Memory is fuzzy if I reused the old
power supply.  Pulled it and its the old.

Then you must have a RXV21(qbus) RX21(u-bus) as well...



> Will check and post back.
> 
>    Thanks!
>      ?FritzM.
> 
> 


From spedraja at gmail.com  Sun Nov 17 17:52:07 2019
From: spedraja at gmail.com (SPC)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 00:52:07 +0100
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CACytpF-VP3fXyz4hUMxa0xvjzaNQY+x5_ZOyb4EoWVKQ7uMLfw@mail.gmail.com>

El dom., 17 nov. 2019 2:23, Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
escribi?:

>
> https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=21558&p=442092#p442092
>
> if you look at the pictures from april, they have an arduino talking to a
> 3278
>
> any ideas who 'ajk' in austin might be?
>

Very impressive.

Cordiales saludos / Best Regards / Salutations / Freundliche Gr??e
-----
Sergio Pedraja

>

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Sun Nov 17 18:03:13 2019
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 19:03:13 -0500
Subject: old PDP/DEC PSU hardware question
In-Reply-To: <629F4CCF-8C32-4548-A3CD-A28DB1D454D7@csp-partnership.co.uk>
References: <629F4CCF-8C32-4548-A3CD-A28DB1D454D7@csp-partnership.co.uk>
Message-ID: <CABGJBucJEdbZtuTLWUypqiwOfNsULSwmhFbSOhcWOG2ijCPqjw@mail.gmail.com>

Do you mean h742?  What system?

On Sun, Nov 17, 2019, 3:29 PM Dr Iain Maoileoin via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I have a query out on VCFed, but I am not gettin gany interest.  Neither
> did my 2015 request on a similar topic - must be the wrong forum.
>
> Advice please: where is the best place to get some troubleshooting tips on
> debugging a DIGITAL H7202B power supply?
> I have 2 supplies that are giving me trouble.  I am competent at digital
> work, much less so on switch-mode and analogue
> (555 is an analogue in my books!).  I have variacs  scopes, logic
> analysers, voltmeters but no skill ;-(
>
> Any advice?

From alan at alanlee.org  Sun Nov 17 18:32:09 2019
From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 19:32:09 -0500
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>


Anyone aware of any effort to emulate 515x terminal sessions on a 
Midrange system over one of the standard SDLC serial ports?  I know 
there were cards like the AST 5251/11 back in the ISA/DOS days.  But it 
would be nice to build a multi-session terminal emulator out of a modern 
Linux box for my S/36.

-Alan H.

On 2019-11-16 20:23, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=21558&p=442092#p442092
> 
> if you look at the pictures from april, they have an arduino talking to 
> a 3278
> 
> any ideas who 'ajk' in austin might be?

From tsraguso at gmail.com  Sun Nov 17 18:39:32 2019
From: tsraguso at gmail.com (Thomas Raguso)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 18:39:32 -0600
Subject: Houston Computer Museum Warehouse Liquidation
Message-ID: <CAAQeJU7h2m+DvJaO1bdVyzu2Qbu9z-LJpb4iPuuSKM7YbRLOeA@mail.gmail.com>

I have located the Cray Y-MP EL, in addition to other other interesting
items, including an Intergraph 6400 workstation with tablet, a PDP-11/23,
an IBM System/34 with 5251 terminal and keyboard, a Unisys A-Series
mainframe, and a Symbolics 3640 Lisp machine (includes console, but there
is no keyboard).

Pictures can be found here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/rgkBddeuosjnJ3TC6

I am taking offers on all of the above listed items.

Thomas Raguso

From matt at 9track.net  Sun Nov 17 18:55:32 2019
From: matt at 9track.net (Matt Burke)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 00:55:32 +0000
Subject: old PDP/DEC PSU hardware question
In-Reply-To: <629F4CCF-8C32-4548-A3CD-A28DB1D454D7@csp-partnership.co.uk>
References: <629F4CCF-8C32-4548-A3CD-A28DB1D454D7@csp-partnership.co.uk>
Message-ID: <1bab899f-2d7f-955c-f0c2-bb25ec11553f@9track.net>

On 17/11/2019 20:28, Dr Iain Maoileoin via cctalk wrote:
> I have a query out on VCFed, but I am not gettin gany interest.  Neither did my 2015 request on a similar topic - must be the wrong forum.
>
> Advice please: where is the best place to get some troubleshooting tips on debugging a DIGITAL H7202B power supply?
> I have 2 supplies that are giving me trouble.  I am competent at digital work, much less so on switch-mode and analogue
> (555 is an analogue in my books!).  I have variacs  scopes, logic analysers, voltmeters but no skill ;-(
>
> Any advice?

H7202 sounds like PDP-11/84 or VAX-11/730. Either way the schematics are
available on bitsavers:

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/730/MP01270_11730_Engineering_Drawings_Apr82.pdf

I have repaired one of these before but there's no guarantee you have
the same fault. For me it was C30 at location D5 on sheet 2. This silver
mica capacitor had become leaky which caused fusible resistor R49 to
fail. This took out (what I'm going to call) the 'standby' power supply
and without that nothing works.

I would start by checking this 'standby' supply. With AC power applied
you should get +14V and -14V as shown at location D2 on sheet 2 even
when the main power supply outputs are off.

Matt

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Sun Nov 17 20:30:58 2019
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 21:30:58 -0500
Subject: RX01 wants
In-Reply-To: <3A9EC653-0518-4B3F-9F55-AEB22B45F790@fritzm.org>
References: <D02A4EAB-B5AC-4524-A92E-5367930CD6D0@fritzm.org>
 <CACwhfuNHr6u05AAEk6kyKi++jDLkWPVhuEP-2Dzm8QWps7HMBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <703C27A6-A76E-40A4-90D9-A395D2CEC026@fritzm.org>
 <CAALmimnfpKjH+KqCU0VPEq1DiE1zDjEOpsYEDvyJho3LrWSs5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <3A9EC653-0518-4B3F-9F55-AEB22B45F790@fritzm.org>
Message-ID: <CAALmimmM=Oe8FmuxfQTz87MAHk_kjmhcHaaViGJYOEyTNv+f7Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 17, 2019 at 2:45 PM Fritz Mueller via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> Hi Ethan,
>
> > On Nov 17, 2019, at 11:25 AM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
> > The box is kind of fun, and was standard for word processors and the
> > MINC-11 but I can understand wanting a rackable system.
>
> Thanks for the info!

Sure thing.

Here's a photo of the VT78 on its table over the tabletop RX02 box.
You can see the bent metal "rails" in the bottom - the drive box just
slides back on those.  Quite minimal.

http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pics/vt78/vt78.jpg

> I?m all for keeping things intact when possible, so I?d also be happy to do a trade for a rackable RX drive if anybody is interested.  Otherwise, would definitely want to pass the box on to any interested collector.

There are many options, as have been discussed.  The drive mechs and
boards and PSU are quite standard and were available in 2-3
configurations (rackable, DECmate I pedestal, tabletop box,
essentially).  All the internal drives used Berg-40-to-Berg-40 cables.
The external ones used the DB25 arrangement.

-ethan

From aek at bitsavers.org  Sun Nov 17 20:50:57 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 18:50:57 -0800
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
Message-ID: <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>



On 11/17/19 4:32 PM, alan--- via cctalk wrote:
> 
> Anyone aware of any effort to emulate 515x terminal sessions on a Midrange system over one of the standard SDLC serial
> ports?

sounds painful
do you mean over a twinax port?

I was just thinking I don't think I've seen the equivalent of the CUT spec for twinax
There was firmware and cards that existed for the National DP8344 that supported CUT and twinax
but I've never been able to find a copy.




From barythrin at gmail.com  Sun Nov 17 21:05:00 2019
From: barythrin at gmail.com (John Herron)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 21:05:00 -0600
Subject: Discord
In-Reply-To: <000101d59be9$20582330$61086990$@classiccmp.org>
References: <000201d59bd9$b4b5a7b0$1e20f710$@classiccmp.org>
 <20191115105416.6ee7feb4@officew7>
 <000101d59be9$20582330$61086990$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CAEOGs+hV3apz6ZFwE3-ki6qQ8gSxJLUPN8b2sHUHyDYZYutNag@mail.gmail.com>

Just an fyi the mohaa site only loads an Apache test page.

On Fri, Nov 15, 2019, 3:10 PM jwest--- via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> Medal of Honor : Allied Assault
>
> We are also looking to 'wrap into the same game' the Spearhead and
> Breakthrough add-ons.
>
> If you ever want to play, you can download a free version called "mohaa
> revival" (we put that out as well).
> There are a few gameservers left, but 'mohaa.todesplace.org' is the one
> ya want to join for the 'cool people' LOL
>
> We usually only have players during the evenings, but occasionally there
> is a rare day-group.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lyle Bickley <lbickley at bickleywest.com>
> Sent: Friday, November 15, 2019 12:54 PM
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Cc: jwest at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Discord
>
> Hi Jay,
>
> What game are you working on? There are SO many WWII FPS games of that
> period ;)
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_video_games
>
> Cheers,
> Lyle
> --
>
> On Fri, 15 Nov 2019 11:25:41 -0600
> jwest--- via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > Greetings folks
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_video_games
> >
> >
> > The past few years I?ve become fairly focused on a particular old
> > 1999/2000 ww2 fps computer game. Of course playing it but I?m also on
> > the development team for the game (EA has given up on it, but we still
> > put out new releases, maps, patches, etc.). As a result of that, I
> > pretty much live on Discord text/audio chat these days. If you send me
> > an email I will eventually see it and may even respond heh. But if you
> > send me anything on Discord I?m going to see it immediately. If any of
> > you are on discord, I am ?Todesengel#9624?.
> > Feel free to add me as a friend and that way you can get me usually
> > immediately. I am not leaving the hobby, nor am I saying not to email
> > me at the usual address. But a lot of you do talk to me
> > semi-frequently and I?m just saying discord will get to me far
> > quicker.
> >
> >
> >
> > In addition, mostly as an exercise to see how to do it, I set up a
> > ClassicCMP discord server. That Discord server is NOT meant to replace
> > this list, nor should it be taken to signal any less commitment on my
> > part to keeping this list running. They
> > arehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_video_games
> > fundamentally different things; Discord is great for real time text
> > chat back and forth. There are also audio and video channels if people
> > want to use that to talk verbally or via video. To get on that server,
> > here is a semi-permanent invite: https://discord.gg/U8Skw5g Joining
> > the server gets you to all the other folks who may join the classiccmp
> > discord, not just me. Of course, that could be zero ?
> > Like I said, I just did it as an exercise, and discord is how some of
> > my family and friends stay in touch. But it is there if peeps want to
> > use it.
> >
> >
> >
> > I?d rather not turn this into a long debate of whether discord is good
> > or bad or anything like that. I?m just saying it?s there, and it?s
> > quicker to get ahold of me that way at times.
> >
> >
> >
> > Best,
> >
> >
> >
> > J
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Lyle Bickley
> NM6Y     '73
> http://bickeywest.com
> "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"
>
>
>

From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Mon Nov 18 00:05:42 2019
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 22:05:42 -0800
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <7d89a1ba-f8db-3386-e40d-cf104915a5b5@jwsss.com>



On 11/16/2019 5:23 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=21558&p=442092#p442092
>
> if you look at the pictures from april, they have an arduino talking to a 3278
>
> any ideas who 'ajk' in austin might be?
>
>
This is a screen running IRC, including the channel, #deskauthority

https://imgur.com/a/WmVxoGw

ping the user id's on that screen?

andrew at cpe-24-27-54-87.austin.res.rr.com

topic set by acfrazier

Looks like a VT100 screen.? I am hoping it's really running 3270 on the 
thing.

Look at the bottom below the line.? has VT100 on that line where the 
3270 status
would be.

id seems to be acfrazier




From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 18 02:43:19 2019
From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 00:43:19 -0800
Subject: Discord
In-Reply-To: <000901d59bda$7d7b3520$78719f60$@classiccmp.org>
References: <000201d59bd9$b4b5a7b0$1e20f710$@classiccmp.org>
 <000901d59bda$7d7b3520$78719f60$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <C784616D-D20C-45A5-97A5-70EA5BD95F9D@gmail.com>

Tried the discord, and enjoyed it much more than I would have expected! It was nice to talk with members in real time and share pictures of new acquisitions, current projects, and also talk about where everybody lives. 
Marc

> On Nov 15, 2019, at 9:31 AM, jwest--- via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> I believe I sent the invite to my game channel, NOT the new classiccmp server..... please use this instead:
> https://discord.gg/gV6PKYW
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of jwest--- via cctalk
> Sent: Friday, November 15, 2019 11:26 AM
> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Discord
> 
> Greetings folks
> 
> 
> 
> The past few years I?ve become fairly focused on a particular old 1999/2000 ww2 fps computer game. Of course playing it but I?m also on the development team for the game (EA has given up on it, but we still put out new releases, maps, patches, etc.). As a result of that, I pretty much live on Discord text/audio chat these days. If you send me an email I will eventually see it and may even respond heh. But if you send me anything on Discord I?m going to see it immediately. If any of you are on discord, I am ?Todesengel#9624?. Feel free to add me as a friend and that way you can get me usually immediately. I am not leaving the hobby, nor am I saying not to email me at the usual address. But a lot of you do talk to me semi-frequently and I?m just saying discord will get to me far quicker.
> 
> 
> 
> In addition, mostly as an exercise to see how to do it, I set up a ClassicCMP discord server. That Discord server is NOT meant to replace this list, nor should it be taken to signal any less commitment on my part to keeping this list running. They are fundamentally different things; Discord is great for real time text chat back and forth. There are also audio and video channels if people want to use that to talk verbally or via video. To get on that server, here is a semi-permanent invite: https://discord.gg/U8Skw5g  Joining the server gets you to all the other folks who may join the classiccmp discord, not just me. Of course, that could be zero ? Like I said, I just did it as an exercise, and discord is how some of my family and friends stay in touch. But it is there if peeps want to use it.
> 
> 
> 
> I?d rather not turn this into a long debate of whether discord is good or bad or anything like that. I?m just saying it?s there, and it?s quicker to get ahold of me that way at times.
> 
> 
> 
> Best,
> 
> 
> 
> J
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Mon Nov 18 03:56:14 2019
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 09:56:14 -0000
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Al Kossow via
> cctalk
> Sent: 18 November 2019 02:51
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: 3270 controller simulation
> 
> 
> 
> On 11/17/19 4:32 PM, alan--- via cctalk wrote:
> >
> > Anyone aware of any effort to emulate 515x terminal sessions on a
> > Midrange system over one of the standard SDLC serial ports?
> 
> sounds painful
> do you mean over a twinax port?
> 
> I was just thinking I don't think I've seen the equivalent of the CUT spec for
> twinax There was firmware and cards that existed for the National DP8344 that
> supported CUT and twinax but I've never been able to find a copy.
> 
> 
Whilst not what you are looking for some one has been working on supporting CISCO SDLC encapsulation in Hercules.
So this allows real 3270's to connect to Hercules from a 3174 with only SDLC ports by going via a CISCO router with an SDLC port.
I wonder if you could do the reverse. So go TN5250 into a Cisco and then emerge as SDLC....

Dave



From pmackinlay at hotmail.com  Mon Nov 18 04:49:06 2019
From: pmackinlay at hotmail.com (Patrick Mackinlay)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 10:49:06 +0000
Subject: Houston Computer Museum Warehouse Liquidation
In-Reply-To: <CAAQeJU7h2m+DvJaO1bdVyzu2Qbu9z-LJpb4iPuuSKM7YbRLOeA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAQeJU7h2m+DvJaO1bdVyzu2Qbu9z-LJpb4iPuuSKM7YbRLOeA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BN6PR22MB16826821315FA2AEA3740D93C84D0@BN6PR22MB1682.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>

Unfortunately I?m well and truly too far away shipping wise, but the Intergraph 6400 is a rare thing these days. Anyone willing to pick it up and dump ROMs and photograph internals would be a huge help to the MAME emulation effort for these systems...

________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Thomas Raguso via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, November 18, 2019 7:39:32 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Houston Computer Museum Warehouse Liquidation

I have located the Cray Y-MP EL, in addition to other other interesting
items, including an Intergraph 6400 workstation with tablet, a PDP-11/23,
an IBM System/34 with 5251 terminal and keyboard, a Unisys A-Series
mainframe, and a Symbolics 3640 Lisp machine (includes console, but there
is no keyboard).

Pictures can be found here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/rgkBddeuosjnJ3TC6

I am taking offers on all of the above listed items.

Thomas Raguso

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Mon Nov 18 06:55:27 2019
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 06:55:27 -0600
Subject: Discord
In-Reply-To: <CAEOGs+hV3apz6ZFwE3-ki6qQ8gSxJLUPN8b2sHUHyDYZYutNag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000201d59bd9$b4b5a7b0$1e20f710$@classiccmp.org>
 <20191115105416.6ee7feb4@officew7>
 <000101d59be9$20582330$61086990$@classiccmp.org>
 <CAEOGs+hV3apz6ZFwE3-ki6qQ8gSxJLUPN8b2sHUHyDYZYutNag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004f01d59e0f$73cadb70$5b609250$@classiccmp.org>

John wrote...
>Just an fyi the mohaa site only loads an Apache test page.
That's because it isn't a 'site'. The dns name mohaa.todesplace.org is for the game clients to connect to. The website at www.todesplace.org is just for my players. For the teamspeak server - teamspeak.todesplace.org.

On Fri, Nov 15, 2019, 3:10 PM jwest--- via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> Medal of Honor : Allied Assault



From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Nov 18 09:55:12 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 07:55:12 -0800
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <7d89a1ba-f8db-3386-e40d-cf104915a5b5@jwsss.com>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <7d89a1ba-f8db-3386-e40d-cf104915a5b5@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <27c345c6-3bcf-85c9-b00d-8cac401cc405@bitsavers.org>



On 11/17/19 10:05 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote:

> andrew at cpe-24-27-54-87.austin.res.rr.com
> 
> topic set by acfrazier
> 
> Looks like a VT100 screen.? I am hoping it's really running 3270 on the thing.
> 
> Look at the bottom below the line.? has VT100 on that line where the 3270 status
> would be.
> 
> id seems to be acfrazier
> 
> 
> 

tried sending email there, it didn't bounce but I didn't hear anything back


From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Mon Nov 18 10:22:00 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 09:22:00 -0700
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 11/18/19 2:56 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote:
> Whilst not what you are looking for some one has been working on 
> supporting CISCO SDLC encapsulation in Hercules.

Are they working on Cisco's SDLC line protocol and / or physical 
(serial) interface?

> So this allows real 3270's to connect to Hercules from a 3174 with only 
> SDLC ports by going via a CISCO router with an SDLC port.

So something like this:

[3270]---(coax)---[3174]===(SDLC)===??? ... ???---[Hercules]

What is the physical / logical connection to Hercules and the machine 
it's running on?

Or is this more like this:

[3270]---(coax)---[3174]===(SDLC)===[Cisco]---Ethernet---[Hercules]

In that the Cisco translates from the physical SDLC circuit to Ethernet 
and maybe does a protocol conversion to send things into Hercules across 
standard Ethernet?  Meaning that the Cisco becomes a fancy remote SDLC 
interface that Hercules communicates with?

I've been pontificating DLSw coming out of OS/390 running in Hercules / 
on my P/390-E to a Cisco and leveraging DLSw support to connect SNA 
(802.2 SNAP) to clients downstream.

This seems similar but is integrating an SDLC link to a 3174.

> I wonder if you could do the reverse. So go TN5250 into a Cisco and then 
> emerge as SDLC....

Hum.  I thought the TN5250 (and TN3270) was the 5250 (3270) protocol 
over TelNet.  As such, I don't think a 5250 (3270) terminal can speak 
the TN5250 (TN3720) protocol at all.  Instead, they need some sort of 
physical device that they can connect to that will gateway from 
<whatever> physical w/ 5250 (3270) protocol to any IP network with 
TN5250 (TN3270).

So, do any Cisco devices have twinax (?) interfaces for 5250 (or coax 
for 3270)?

I know that older & larger Cisco gear has the Channel Interface 
Processor that can attach to Bus & Tag channels from a mainframe and 
convert from TN3270 (I presume TN5250) to the physical B&T interface and 
necessary protocols there over for the mainframe.  But that's decidedly 
going the opposite direction.

Perhaps ~> hopefully I'm just ignorant of other solutions from Cisco, or 
anyone else, that will do what is desired.  I believe the *Remote* 3174 
(et al.) is one of these devices from IBM.  IBM's "Enterprise Extender" 
comes to mind too.  But I don't know what sort of down stream equipment 
that connects to.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Mon Nov 18 10:31:53 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 09:31:53 -0700
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <27c345c6-3bcf-85c9-b00d-8cac401cc405@bitsavers.org>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <7d89a1ba-f8db-3386-e40d-cf104915a5b5@jwsss.com>
 <27c345c6-3bcf-85c9-b00d-8cac401cc405@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <f43c146a-e776-9369-256b-33e217876529@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 11/18/19 8:55 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
>> andrew at cpe-24-27-54-87.austin.res.rr.com
> 
> tried sending email there, it didn't bounce but I didn't hear anything 
> back

The format of the hostname looks like a fabricated DNS entry that I'm 
accustom to seeing from big residential ISPs.  I would NOT hold my 
breath for it to work in any way shape or form.  In fact, I would bet a 
cup of fancy coffee that it would not work as desired.

Try asking around the #input.club on Freenode to see if anyone can put 
you in contact with andrew.

You can probably find other contact methods on Input Club's Wiki:

Link - Input Club
  - https://deskthority.net/wiki/Input_Club



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Mon Nov 18 10:42:09 2019
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 16:42:09 -0000
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <13a901d59e2f$1f235b40$5d6a11c0$@gmail.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Grant Taylor via
> cctalk
> Sent: 18 November 2019 16:22
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: 3270 controller simulation
> 
> On 11/18/19 2:56 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote:
> > Whilst not what you are looking for some one has been working on
> > supporting CISCO SDLC encapsulation in Hercules.
> 
> Are they working on Cisco's SDLC line protocol and / or physical
> (serial) interface?
> 
> > So this allows real 3270's to connect to Hercules from a 3174 with
> > only SDLC ports by going via a CISCO router with an SDLC port.
> 
> Or is this more like this:
> 
> [3270]---(coax)---[3174]===(SDLC)===[Cisco]---Ethernet---[Hercules]
> 
> In that the Cisco translates from the physical SDLC circuit to Ethernet and
> maybe does a protocol conversion to send things into Hercules across standard
> Ethernet?  Meaning that the Cisco becomes a fancy remote SDLC interface that
> Hercules communicates with?

Yes the second. So it only works with SNA . 

> 
> I've been pontificating DLSw coming out of OS/390 running in Hercules / on my
> P/390-E to a Cisco and leveraging DLSw support to connect SNA
> (802.2 SNAP) to clients downstream.
> 
> This seems similar but is integrating an SDLC link to a 3174.
> 

Yes its DLSw. Was demonstrated at the recent DEC Legacy event.. 

> > I wonder if you could do the reverse. So go TN5250 into a Cisco and
> > then emerge as SDLC....
> 
> Hum.  I thought the TN5250 (and TN3270) was the 5250 (3270) protocol over
> TelNet.  As such, I don't think a 5250 (3270) terminal can speak the TN5250
> (TN3720) protocol at all.  Instead, they need some sort of physical device that
> they can connect to that will gateway from <whatever> physical w/ 5250 (3270)
> protocol to any IP network with
> TN5250 (TN3270).
> 
> So, do any Cisco devices have twinax (?) interfaces for 5250 (or coax for 3270)?
> 

No, I was thinking if you had an older  mid-range box with no TCPIP... 

> I know that older & larger Cisco gear has the Channel Interface Processor that
> can attach to Bus & Tag channels from a mainframe and convert from TN3270
> (I presume TN5250) to the physical B&T interface and necessary protocols
> there over for the mainframe.  But that's decidedly going the opposite
> direction.
> 
> Perhaps ~> hopefully I'm just ignorant of other solutions from Cisco, or anyone
> else, that will do what is desired.  I believe the *Remote* 3174 (et al.) is one of
> these devices from IBM.  IBM's "Enterprise Extender"
> comes to mind too.  But I don't know what sort of down stream equipment that
> connects to.
> 

This is where I miss the old IBM offerings cataloge

> 
> 
> --
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die

Dave


From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Nov 18 10:45:28 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 08:45:28 -0800
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>



On 11/18/19 8:22 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:

> I believe the *Remote* 3174 (et al.) is one of these devices from IBM.

The bigger 3174s have ethernet as an option, as did the Memorex/Telex 1174
More commonly, 3174s had token ring and people have gone Cisco to 3174 to
get coax terminals talking to Hercules. I believe Guy S., Dave W. and Jay W.
have done this. I have the parts to do either token ring or ethernet on a
3174, and just got probably one of the last 1174s in the world with ethernet
(but no docs)

One of my projects is to try to get something similar going that is open-source
which is why I was interested in ajk's arduino project



From cube1 at charter.net  Mon Nov 18 10:47:03 2019
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 10:47:03 -0600
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <7d89a1ba-f8db-3386-e40d-cf104915a5b5@jwsss.com>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <7d89a1ba-f8db-3386-e40d-cf104915a5b5@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <b3afc6ce-485a-d611-e882-48c210fff8f3@charter.net>

On 11/18/2019 12:05 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote:
> 
> Looks like a VT100 screen.? I am hoping it's really running 3270 on the
> thing.
> 
> Look at the bottom below the line.? has VT100 on that line where the
> 3270 status
> would be.
> 

Though I have worked with real 3270's in the past, I am no expert on the
CUT or DFT protocols.  However, it would not surprise me at all if, for
a 3278, that information is provided by the controller -- but not as
part of the data stream that the host computer sees.

I found these documents, but they don't address that status line,
because they are for the older 3271/3272 controllers.

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/3270/3271-3272_to_Device_Interface_Spec_May74.pdf
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/3270/fe/ANR-specification-1975.pdf

JRJ


From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Nov 18 10:54:54 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 08:54:54 -0800
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
Message-ID: <0bb4181a-1ee1-8bed-7ec0-2d8ef92462b2@bitsavers.org>



On 11/17/19 4:32 PM, alan--- via cctalk wrote:
> 
> it would be nice to build a
> multi-session terminal emulator out of a modern Linux box for my S/36.

another hacky way to to this would be a twinax to multi-port serial terminal
converter, then rs-232 to telnet

I did say it was a hack :-)




From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Nov 18 10:59:03 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 08:59:03 -0800
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <b3afc6ce-485a-d611-e882-48c210fff8f3@charter.net>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <7d89a1ba-f8db-3386-e40d-cf104915a5b5@jwsss.com>
 <b3afc6ce-485a-d611-e882-48c210fff8f3@charter.net>
Message-ID: <1baef664-1800-bb0d-d7bf-43fb51a0615c@bitsavers.org>



On 11/18/19 8:47 AM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote:

> I found these documents, but they don't address that status line,
> because they are for the older 3271/3272 controllers.

yup, noticed that too, which was one of the interesting things about what he did

there is information on DFT and structured fields in other documents.
he picked up some 3174s as well, so it's possible he reversed some things
from over the wire

many questions...




From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Mon Nov 18 11:06:26 2019
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 17:06:26 -0000
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <13ac01d59e32$838e4470$8aaacd50$@gmail.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Al Kossow via
> cctalk
> Sent: 18 November 2019 16:45
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: 3270 controller simulation
> 
> 
> 
> On 11/18/19 8:22 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> 
> > I believe the *Remote* 3174 (et al.) is one of these devices from IBM.
> 
> The bigger 3174s have ethernet as an option, as did the Memorex/Telex 1174
> More commonly, 3174s had token ring and people have gone Cisco to 3174 to
> get coax terminals talking to Hercules. I believe Guy S., Dave W. and Jay W.
> have done this. 

I started with a token ring card in a Windows/2000 box so I could connect directly. I have also gone via a Cisco router with a Token Ring interface NATed onto my normal LAN.
I now have a 3174 with an Ethernet card but only floppies. I was planning to try moving the card to a bigger 3174 with a Hard Disk (actually an MFM emulator) but the PSU in that has dies..
... just as I got the MFM emulator working :-(

>I have the parts to do either token ring or ethernet on a 3174,
> and just got probably one of the last 1174s in the world with ethernet (but no
> docs)
> 
> One of my projects is to try to get something similar going that is open-source
> which is why I was interested in ajk's arduino project
> 

The documents presented seem to have lots of info. Perhaps I should get the scope out and see what happens on the co-ax...

Dave


From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Mon Nov 18 11:07:21 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 10:07:21 -0700
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <13a901d59e2f$1f235b40$5d6a11c0$@gmail.com>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <13a901d59e2f$1f235b40$5d6a11c0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <80c2f8d6-d606-161d-fae8-201e2d7b4e29@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 11/18/19 9:42 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote:
> Yes the second. So it only works with SNA .

ACK

I don't think DLSw being SNA only is a problem.  I say this because I 
think DLSw requires TCP/IP connectivity.  Thus you already have TCP/IP 
connectivity to the mainframe.

> Yes its DLSw. Was demonstrated at the recent DEC Legacy event..

ACK

[3270]---(coax)---[3174]===(SDLC)===[Cisco]---(Ethernet)---[Hercules]
[3270]---(3720)---[3174]===(????)===[Cisco]---(DLSw/IP)----[Hercules]

Is it proper to say that SNA is the protocol that is carried across the 
DLSw over IP?  Is it also what's carried over the SDLC?

> No, I was thinking if you had an older  mid-range box with no TCPIP...

Okay....  I'm lost.

If there's no Cisco box with Twinax and the host doesn't have TCP/IP, 
how are you going to connect things?

SNA across Token Ring and / or Ethernet?

#confused

> This is where I miss the old IBM offerings cataloge

pr0n   :-)



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Mon Nov 18 11:12:37 2019
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 17:12:37 -0000
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <80c2f8d6-d606-161d-fae8-201e2d7b4e29@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <13a901d59e2f$1f235b40$5d6a11c0$@gmail.com>
 <80c2f8d6-d606-161d-fae8-201e2d7b4e29@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <13b001d59e33$60d748e0$2285daa0$@gmail.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Grant Taylor via
> cctalk
> Sent: 18 November 2019 17:07
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: 3270 controller simulation
> 
> On 11/18/19 9:42 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote:
> > Yes the second. So it only works with SNA .
> 
> ACK
> 
> I don't think DLSw being SNA only is a problem.  I say this because I think DLSw
> requires TCP/IP connectivity.  Thus you already have TCP/IP connectivity to the
> mainframe.
> 

The free VM370 does not support SNA so for that you would need to convert from SNA 3270 back to channel attached protocol...
... I suppose on reflection that?s do-able..


> > Yes its DLSw. Was demonstrated at the recent DEC Legacy event..
> 
> ACK
> 
> [3270]---(coax)---[3174]===(SDLC)===[Cisco]---(Ethernet)---[Hercules]
> [3270]---(3720)---[3174]===(????)===[Cisco]---(DLSw/IP)----[Hercules]
> 
> Is it proper to say that SNA is the protocol that is carried across the DLSw over
> IP?  Is it also what's carried over the SDLC?
> 
> > No, I was thinking if you had an older  mid-range box with no TCPIP...
> 
> Okay....  I'm lost.

If you needed to get screens into a System/36 which has an SDLC port but no ethernet.

> 
> If there's no Cisco box with Twinax and the host doesn't have TCP/IP, how are
> you going to connect things?
> 
> SNA across Token Ring and / or Ethernet?
> 
> #confused
> 

Real SDLC from the CISCO

> > This is where I miss the old IBM offerings cataloge
> 
> pr0n   :-)

Well mine seems to have banished. I wonder if my wife hid it on purpose.

> --
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die

Dave


From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Mon Nov 18 11:16:21 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 10:16:21 -0700
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <f75983da-a9db-8bb3-8099-3d8649a3e78a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 11/18/19 9:45 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> ?people have gone Cisco to 3174 to get coax terminals talking to 
> Hercules. I believe Guy S., Dave W. and Jay W. have done this.

Please confirm if it is DLSw between the Cisco and OS running in Hercules?

Sorry for being obtuse.  There are a LOT of different things in IBM 
networking, compounded by other vendors, and I want to make sure I'm 
tracking properly.  Particularly as this is something I'd like to 
reproduce for similar reasons.

> I have the parts to do either token ring or ethernet on a 3174, and 
> just got probably one of the last 1174s in the world with ethernet 
> (but no docs)

Would you please clarify if you have the "Local" or "Remote" 3174?

Can "Local" and / or "Remote" 3174s be converted to the other end of the 
link?

I ask because I think most "Local" 3174s expect the host to be channel 
attached.  Don't they?

> One of my projects is to try to get something similar going that is 
> open-source which is why I was interested in ajk's arduino project




-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Mon Nov 18 11:21:38 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 10:21:38 -0700
Subject: Question about "Distributed" in the DFT name.
Message-ID: <1dda1641-b1f5-58f8-1c37-a070b9e05534@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 11/18/19 9:47 AM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote:




-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Nov 18 11:31:51 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 09:31:51 -0800
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <f75983da-a9db-8bb3-8099-3d8649a3e78a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
 <f75983da-a9db-8bb3-8099-3d8649a3e78a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <a1510a37-c9ae-3785-9d5f-52ba0fd35941@bitsavers.org>



On 11/18/19 9:16 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:

> Would you please clarify if you have the "Local" or "Remote" 3174?

All of my terminal controllers are remote, since I don't have anything
with a channel.

I have a small S36 in storage which is why I have some interest in
twinax. I guess I'd have more if anyone ever gets S34 or 36 running
in simulation.

I have started collecting ISA/PCI/Nubus cards and software for twinax
to go along with what I've been doing for coax. They are pretty cheap
and available right now (at least the HW, software is harder) with
the exception of the Nubus Coax/Twinax board which is unobtanium.




From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Mon Nov 18 11:32:01 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 10:32:01 -0700
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <13ac01d59e32$838e4470$8aaacd50$@gmail.com>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
 <13ac01d59e32$838e4470$8aaacd50$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f7b767a4-06de-7a57-70ba-6c4221bb8ca1@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 11/18/19 10:06 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote:
> I started with a token ring card in a Windows/2000 box so I could connect 
> directly.

Nice.

Was this TN5250 (5250 vs 3270?)?  Or was it SNA?

> I have also gone via a Cisco router with a Token Ring interface NATed 
> onto my normal LAN.

I assume this was TN5250 / TN3270.  Was the Cisco functioning as the 
Telnet to SNA gateway?

Sorry, I've lost track, were you doing 5250 to an AS/400 or 3270 to a 
mainframe?

> I now have a 3174 with an Ethernet card but only floppies. I was planning 
> to try moving the card to a bigger 3174 with a Hard Disk (actually an 
> MFM emulator) but the PSU in that has dies. > ... just as I got the MFM emulator working :-(

:-(

> The documents presented seem to have lots of info.
> Perhaps I should get the scope out and see what happens on the co-ax...




-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Nov 18 11:37:50 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 09:37:50 -0800
Subject: Question about "Distributed" in the DFT name.
In-Reply-To: <1dda1641-b1f5-58f8-1c37-a070b9e05534@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <1dda1641-b1f5-58f8-1c37-a070b9e05534@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <91061010-5b2d-a4c9-5048-f8317be8c82d@bitsavers.org>

odd message.. no body..

first generation displays were very dumb, later generations were intelligent and could parse the data stream
allowing the creation of multiple virtual displays along with graphics. these are the ones with a 25th status
row

Ken just wrote a blog post about this trying to defuse the nonsense on the web about the reason why
terminals are 80 x 25

https://twitter.com/kenshirriff/status/1192497422959665153



From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Mon Nov 18 11:38:33 2019
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 17:38:33 -0000
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <f75983da-a9db-8bb3-8099-3d8649a3e78a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
 <f75983da-a9db-8bb3-8099-3d8649a3e78a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <140501d59e37$006756e0$013604a0$@gmail.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Grant Taylor via
> cctalk
> Sent: 18 November 2019 17:16
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: 3270 controller simulation
> 
> On 11/18/19 9:45 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> > ?people have gone Cisco to 3174 to get coax terminals talking to
> > Hercules. I believe Guy S., Dave W. and Jay W. have done this.
> 
> Please confirm if it is DLSw between the Cisco and OS running in Hercules?
> 

I go TN3270 from the 3174 -> Hercules so the screens look like local screens to the OS. This is how most folks have done it.
It needs a big(ish) 3174 and the C6.3 or 6.4 microcode.

As MVS 3.8J does not understand DLSw (it has no TCP) Matt unpicks the DLSw in Hercules so MVS sees (I think) an SDLC connected 3174.

> Sorry for being obtuse.  There are a LOT of different things in IBM networking,
> compounded by other vendors, and I want to make sure I'm tracking properly.
> Particularly as this is something I'd like to reproduce for similar reasons.

You are not being obtuse. IBM networking covers so many options its not true.

> 
> > I have the parts to do either token ring or ethernet on a 3174, and
> > just got probably one of the last 1174s in the world with ethernet
> > (but no docs)
> 
> Would you please clarify if you have the "Local" or "Remote" 3174?
> 

I think TN3270 connected screens usually look like they are "local"....

> Can "Local" and / or "Remote" 3174s be converted to the other end of the link?
> 
> I ask because I think most "Local" 3174s expect the host to be channel attached.
> Don't they?
> 

Define "most" and "when". I have 4 x 3174s plus the guts of two more. None have channel interfaces.
The first three I bought years ago had token ring interfaces and serial interfaces which I think can be bi-sync or SDLC.
Two of the others have token ring, and one has ethernet. I think many connected over token ring...


> > One of my projects is to try to get something similar going that is
> > open-source which is why I was interested in ajk's arduino project
> 
> --
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die


From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Mon Nov 18 11:39:31 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 10:39:31 -0700
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <13b001d59e33$60d748e0$2285daa0$@gmail.com>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <13a901d59e2f$1f235b40$5d6a11c0$@gmail.com>
 <80c2f8d6-d606-161d-fae8-201e2d7b4e29@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <13b001d59e33$60d748e0$2285daa0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3bef9f04-c73f-a7ec-cfc8-8d5b2576b7da@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 11/18/19 10:12 AM, Dave Wade wrote:
> The free VM370 does not support SNA so for that you would need to convert 
> from SNA 3270 back to channel attached protocol...

Okay.

Do you know what the proper, or any, name is for said channel attached 
protocol?

> ... I suppose on reflection that?s do-able..
> 
> If you needed to get screens into a System/36 which has an SDLC port 
> but no ethernet.

Ah.  I hadn't contemplated a system with an SDLC interface but no Twinax 
/ Token Ring / Ethernet.

> Real SDLC from the CISCO

Given your previous comment, this makes more sense.

Thank you for enlightening me.

> Well mine seems to have banished. I wonder if my wife hid it on purpose.

~chuckle~

"Yes dear" usually works well for me.  YMMV



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Mon Nov 18 11:42:34 2019
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 17:42:34 -0000
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <f7b767a4-06de-7a57-70ba-6c4221bb8ca1@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
 <13ac01d59e32$838e4470$8aaacd50$@gmail.com>
 <f7b767a4-06de-7a57-70ba-6c4221bb8ca1@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <140701d59e37$9026f600$b074e200$@gmail.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Grant Taylor via
> cctalk
> Sent: 18 November 2019 17:32
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: 3270 controller simulation
> 
> On 11/18/19 10:06 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote:
> > I started with a token ring card in a Windows/2000 box so I could
> > connect directly.
> 
> Nice.
> 
> Was this TN5250 (5250 vs 3270?)?  Or was it SNA?

TN3270 into Hercules so they look local to the OS...

> 
> > I have also gone via a Cisco router with a Token Ring interface NATed
> > onto my normal LAN.
> 
> I assume this was TN5250 / TN3270.  Was the Cisco functioning as the Telnet to
> SNA gateway?
> 

TH3270. Cisco merely converts Token Ring to ethernet as my current PC only has PCI-Express and you can't get PCI-Express Token ring cards.

> Sorry, I've lost track, were you doing 5250 to an AS/400 or 3270 to a
> mainframe?
> 

3270 to Hercules..

> > I now have a 3174 with an Ethernet card but only floppies. I was
> > planning to try moving the card to a bigger 3174 with a Hard Disk
> > (actually an MFM emulator) but the PSU in that has dies. > ... just as
> > I got the MFM emulator working :-(
> 
> :-(
> 
> > The documents presented seem to have lots of info.
> > Perhaps I should get the scope out and see what happens on the co-ax...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die

Dave


From cw at cfsimmons.com  Mon Nov 18 11:43:17 2019
From: cw at cfsimmons.com (cw)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 17:43:17 +0000
Subject: FPGA based 3174 replacement
Message-ID: <083A86A8-5B37-42C2-AA60-DD09F9F22887@cfsimmons.com>

As it happens I wrote a Verilog module last week for serializing and deserializing 3270 coax frames, without realizing someone had already done this with an arduino. What I?ve written is intended for a zynq device but is general enough to be used in other designs. 

At the moment I have petalinux installed and can send frames with a small test program and see them on my scope. A loop back configuration also seems to work. I haven?t build the coax driver circuit yet so I can?t be sure of it?s correct operation.

I?d be willing to make this code available tonight. Although I?m not sure how many people have the right hardware lying around.

Chris

From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Nov 18 11:48:09 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 09:48:09 -0800
Subject: FPGA based 3174 replacement
In-Reply-To: <083A86A8-5B37-42C2-AA60-DD09F9F22887@cfsimmons.com>
References: <083A86A8-5B37-42C2-AA60-DD09F9F22887@cfsimmons.com>
Message-ID: <b436cbf2-0b04-87da-2f73-d98374fb5c3f@bitsavers.org>



On 11/18/19 9:43 AM, cw via cctalk wrote:
> As it happens I wrote a Verilog module last week for serializing and deserializing 3270 coax frames, without realizing someone had already done this with an arduino.

I don't think anyone here had noticed that Deskauthority post from April before I did last weekend.



From ggs at shiresoft.com  Mon Nov 18 11:50:23 2019
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 09:50:23 -0800
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <48F39D22-8976-44DE-832E-F82AA184AEAC@shiresoft.com>

Yes, I have my 3174 communicating with Hercules (as well as my MP3000).

TTFN - Guy

> On Nov 18, 2019, at 8:45 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 11/18/19 8:22 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> I believe the *Remote* 3174 (et al.) is one of these devices from IBM.
> 
> The bigger 3174s have ethernet as an option, as did the Memorex/Telex 1174
> More commonly, 3174s had token ring and people have gone Cisco to 3174 to
> get coax terminals talking to Hercules. I believe Guy S., Dave W. and Jay W.
> have done this. I have the parts to do either token ring or ethernet on a
> 3174, and just got probably one of the last 1174s in the world with ethernet
> (but no docs)
> 
> One of my projects is to try to get something similar going that is open-source
> which is why I was interested in ajk's arduino project
> 
> 


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Mon Nov 18 11:51:22 2019
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 17:51:22 -0000
Subject: FPGA based 3174 replacement
In-Reply-To: <083A86A8-5B37-42C2-AA60-DD09F9F22887@cfsimmons.com>
References: <083A86A8-5B37-42C2-AA60-DD09F9F22887@cfsimmons.com>
Message-ID: <141a01d59e38$cab822c0$60286840$@gmail.com>

Chris,
 I have several Spartan boards, no Zync...
 ... but would be interested to see how it works...
Dave

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of cw via cctalk
> Sent: 18 November 2019 17:43
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: FPGA based 3174 replacement
> 
> As it happens I wrote a Verilog module last week for serializing and
> deserializing 3270 coax frames, without realizing someone had already done
> this with an arduino. What I?ve written is intended for a zynq device but is
> general enough to be used in other designs.
> 
> At the moment I have petalinux installed and can send frames with a small test
> program and see them on my scope. A loop back configuration also seems to
> work. I haven?t build the coax driver circuit yet so I can?t be sure of it?s correct
> operation.
> 
> I?d be willing to make this code available tonight. Although I?m not sure how
> many people have the right hardware lying around.
> 
> Chris


From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Mon Nov 18 11:52:48 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 10:52:48 -0700
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <140501d59e37$006756e0$013604a0$@gmail.com>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
 <f75983da-a9db-8bb3-8099-3d8649a3e78a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <140501d59e37$006756e0$013604a0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <828fad08-cef0-b0f6-ed9b-c8d577aa5729@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 11/18/19 10:38 AM, Dave Wade wrote:
> I go TN3270 from the 3174 -> Hercules so the screens look like local 
> screens to the OS. This is how most folks have done it.

I forgot about the fact that Hercules, not the mainframe OS, is doing 
some translation.

Do you know what protocol name would be used to describe the 
communications between the mainframe OS and what it thinks are locally 
attached terminals?

> It needs a big(ish) 3174 and the C6.3 or 6.4 microcode.

ACK

> As MVS 3.8J does not understand DLSw (it has no TCP) Matt unpicks the 
> DLSw in Hercules so MVS sees (I think) an SDLC connected 3174.

Hum.  ...  Very intriguing.

Am I understanding you correctly to mean that Hercules itself has some 
DLSw functionality?

Part of me wants to ask if the 3174 support can be used for SNA out of 
the mainframe, as in the below diagram.  But my reading of various 
pieces of Hercules documentation indicate that it can't be done (yet).

[Mainframe OS]---(SDLC)---[Hercules 
3174]---(DLSw)---[Cisco]---(SNA)---[client]

> You are not being obtuse. IBM networking covers so many options its 
> not true.

Thank you for understanding.

> I think TN3270 connected screens usually look like they are "local"....

ACK

> Define "most" and "when".

"most", in this context, is more to allow for my loose understanding and 
zero exposure.

I'm not tracking "when".

> I have 4 x 3174s plus the guts of two more. None have channel interfaces.

Do you have the model numbers handy?  (I assume the all the type numbers 
are 3174.)

> The first three I bought years ago had token ring interfaces and serial 
> interfaces which I think can be bi-sync or SDLC.
> 
> Two of the others have token ring, and one has ethernet. I think many 
> connected over token ring...

That sounds like Remote 3174s.  At least based on my limited and likely 
flawed understanding.

My understanding is that:

  ? Local 3174s were channel (?) attached to the host.
  ? Remote 3174s were SDLC / X.25 / Token Ring / Ethernet connected to 
Local 3174s.

Where "local" is physically close to and connected to the host. 
Similarly "remote" is not physically close nor connected to the host.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From ggs at shiresoft.com  Mon Nov 18 11:54:45 2019
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 09:54:45 -0800
Subject: FPGA based 3174 replacement
In-Reply-To: <141a01d59e38$cab822c0$60286840$@gmail.com>
References: <083A86A8-5B37-42C2-AA60-DD09F9F22887@cfsimmons.com>
 <141a01d59e38$cab822c0$60286840$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A8EE99A1-9823-49DC-BA17-5C47BF512577@shiresoft.com>

I have several Zynq boards that I?m using (or will be) for other projects but having a replacement
for the 3174 would be nice.

TTFN - Guy

> On Nov 18, 2019, at 9:51 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Chris,
> I have several Spartan boards, no Zync...
> ... but would be interested to see how it works...
> Dave
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of cw via cctalk
>> Sent: 18 November 2019 17:43
>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
>> Subject: FPGA based 3174 replacement
>> 
>> As it happens I wrote a Verilog module last week for serializing and
>> deserializing 3270 coax frames, without realizing someone had already done
>> this with an arduino. What I?ve written is intended for a zynq device but is
>> general enough to be used in other designs.
>> 
>> At the moment I have petalinux installed and can send frames with a small test
>> program and see them on my scope. A loop back configuration also seems to
>> work. I haven?t build the coax driver circuit yet so I can?t be sure of it?s correct
>> operation.
>> 
>> I?d be willing to make this code available tonight. Although I?m not sure how
>> many people have the right hardware lying around.
>> 
>> Chris
> 


From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Mon Nov 18 11:55:56 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 10:55:56 -0700
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <140701d59e37$9026f600$b074e200$@gmail.com>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
 <13ac01d59e32$838e4470$8aaacd50$@gmail.com>
 <f7b767a4-06de-7a57-70ba-6c4221bb8ca1@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <140701d59e37$9026f600$b074e200$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c34f0c26-6a79-d21f-e71a-64f14fc4ed6b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 11/18/19 10:42 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote:
> TN3270 into Hercules so they look local to the OS...

ACK

> TH3270. Cisco merely converts Token Ring to ethernet as my current PC 
> only has PCI-Express and you can't get PCI-Express Token ring cards.

So the Cisco is doing bog standard routing between Ethernet and Token Ring.

> 3270 to Hercules..

Thank you.  Things are starting to click.  I feel like I'm getting a 
better understanding.  :-)



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Nov 18 11:56:05 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 09:56:05 -0800
Subject: FPGA based 3174 replacement
In-Reply-To: <083A86A8-5B37-42C2-AA60-DD09F9F22887@cfsimmons.com>
References: <083A86A8-5B37-42C2-AA60-DD09F9F22887@cfsimmons.com>
Message-ID: <91986e33-8cbf-4a24-8a84-f8db3b16bfad@bitsavers.org>



On 11/18/19 9:43 AM, cw via cctalk wrote:
> As it happens I wrote a Verilog module last week for serializing and deserializing 3270 coax frames, without realizing someone had already done this with an arduino. What I?ve written is intended for a zynq device but is general enough to be used in other designs. 
> 

should also mention Henk's 3277 emulator
http://www.ibmsystem3.nl/emulators.html



From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Nov 18 12:02:45 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 10:02:45 -0800
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <828fad08-cef0-b0f6-ed9b-c8d577aa5729@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
 <f75983da-a9db-8bb3-8099-3d8649a3e78a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <140501d59e37$006756e0$013604a0$@gmail.com>
 <828fad08-cef0-b0f6-ed9b-c8d577aa5729@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <75b9a90d-ba7f-d70e-0225-ecceb2c69dad@bitsavers.org>



On 11/18/19 9:52 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:

> Do you know what protocol name would be used to describe the communications between the mainframe OS and what it thinks
> are locally attached terminals?


http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/3270/GA23-0059-4_3270_Data_Stream_Programmers_Reference_Dec88.pdf

you'll find lots of information about this side of things going back to the dark ages

http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/3270/ZR20-4264-0_IBM_3270_Operation_and_Design_Education_Guide_Sep1971.pdf

getting away from applications programmers dealing with data streams is one of the reasons systems
like CICS were created

the protocol between the 3274/3174 and the terminals is different and varies between the different models of attached
terminal. it isn't even EBCDIC





From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Mon Nov 18 12:04:14 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 11:04:14 -0700
Subject: Question about "Distributed" in the DFT name.
In-Reply-To: <91061010-5b2d-a4c9-5048-f8317be8c82d@bitsavers.org>
References: <1dda1641-b1f5-58f8-1c37-a070b9e05534@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <91061010-5b2d-a4c9-5048-f8317be8c82d@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <40556bea-687f-7b37-3c7b-3cdd7527a4ec@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 11/18/19 10:37 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> odd message.. no body..

*facepalm*

Operator error.  -  Multiple messages trying to start a new thread 
instead of polluting another thread.

Let's try this again.

On 11/18/19 9:47 AM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote:
> I am no expert on the CUT or DFT protocols.

Does the "Distributed" in "Distributed Function Terminal" refer to / 
mean the same thing as the "Distributed" in "Distributed Systems", which 
are also known as "Open Systems"?

> first generation displays were very dumb, later generations were 
> intelligent and could parse the data stream allowing the creation of 
> multiple virtual displays along with graphics. these are the ones with 
> a 25th status row

Interesting.

> Ken just wrote a blog post about this trying to defuse the nonsense on 
> the web about the reason why terminals are 80 x 25
> 
> https://twitter.com/kenshirriff/status/1192497422959665153

I read and enjoyed Ken's article last week.  I found it to be very 
informative.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Mon Nov 18 12:07:12 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 11:07:12 -0700
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <75b9a90d-ba7f-d70e-0225-ecceb2c69dad@bitsavers.org>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
 <f75983da-a9db-8bb3-8099-3d8649a3e78a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <140501d59e37$006756e0$013604a0$@gmail.com>
 <828fad08-cef0-b0f6-ed9b-c8d577aa5729@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <75b9a90d-ba7f-d70e-0225-ecceb2c69dad@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <21fb7f9d-12e1-e1fb-a1f2-85b609ab366e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 11/18/19 11:02 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/3270/GA23-0059-4_3270_Data_Stream_Programmers_Reference_Dec88.pdf

$ReadingList++

> you'll find lots of information about this side of things going back to 
> the dark ages

Thank you.

> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/3270/ZR20-4264-0_IBM_3270_Operation_and_Design_Education_Guide_Sep1971.pdf

$ReadingList++

> getting away from applications programmers dealing with data streams is 
> one of the reasons systems like CICS were created

Hum.  I don't know much about CICS.  I had naively thought that it was 
also about transactions.  But I definitely see the benefit of both.

> the protocol between the 3274/3174 and the terminals is different and 
> varies between the different models of attached terminal. it isn't 
> even EBCDIC

LOL  Joy.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Mon Nov 18 12:14:51 2019
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 18:14:51 +0000
Subject: Question about "Distributed" in the DFT name.
In-Reply-To: <40556bea-687f-7b37-3c7b-3cdd7527a4ec@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <1dda1641-b1f5-58f8-1c37-a070b9e05534@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <91061010-5b2d-a4c9-5048-f8317be8c82d@bitsavers.org>,
 <40556bea-687f-7b37-3c7b-3cdd7527a4ec@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <BYAPR01MB5608D425B10AFC19BDD6EB3BA34D0@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>

An interesting article but he never mentioned cost. Using TV available components cut cost.
Dwight

________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Grant Taylor via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, November 18, 2019 10:04 AM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Question about "Distributed" in the DFT name.

On 11/18/19 10:37 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> odd message.. no body..

*facepalm*

Operator error.  -  Multiple messages trying to start a new thread
instead of polluting another thread.

Let's try this again.

On 11/18/19 9:47 AM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote:
> I am no expert on the CUT or DFT protocols.

Does the "Distributed" in "Distributed Function Terminal" refer to /
mean the same thing as the "Distributed" in "Distributed Systems", which
are also known as "Open Systems"?

> first generation displays were very dumb, later generations were
> intelligent and could parse the data stream allowing the creation of
> multiple virtual displays along with graphics. these are the ones with
> a 25th status row

Interesting.

> Ken just wrote a blog post about this trying to defuse the nonsense on
> the web about the reason why terminals are 80 x 25
>
> https://twitter.com/kenshirriff/status/1192497422959665153

I read and enjoyed Ken's article last week.  I found it to be very
informative.



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Mon Nov 18 12:23:43 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 11:23:43 -0700
Subject: Question about "Distributed" in the DFT name.
In-Reply-To: <F33B50A8-603C-4A86-B388-DF4A27BD1721@comcast.net>
References: <1dda1641-b1f5-58f8-1c37-a070b9e05534@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <91061010-5b2d-a4c9-5048-f8317be8c82d@bitsavers.org>
 <40556bea-687f-7b37-3c7b-3cdd7527a4ec@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <F33B50A8-603C-4A86-B388-DF4A27BD1721@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <18b5b343-e228-131d-ed02-ca6246b85150@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 11/18/19 11:10 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
> Open systems may be distributed, distributed systems may be open, but 
> they are not synonyms.

Okay.  Fair enough.

I don't think the people using "Open Systems" as in Mainframe vs Open 
Systems vs Wintel were differentiating between "open" vs "distributed".

> For example, I'm not sure anyone would call VMS an open system, yet 
> clearly it's distributed (VAXcluster).

What is "open" in this context?  Is it open source?  Is it open 
communications protocols?  (As in OSI / POSIX.)  Is it something else?

I suspect that OpenVMS qualifies as the OSI / POSIX meaning of "open". 
;-)  But OpenVMS is decidedly not open source.

OpenMVS (a.k.a. USS) on the mainframe comes to mind too.  }:)



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Nov 18 12:24:27 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 10:24:27 -0800
Subject: Question about "Distributed" in the DFT name.
In-Reply-To: <40556bea-687f-7b37-3c7b-3cdd7527a4ec@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <1dda1641-b1f5-58f8-1c37-a070b9e05534@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <91061010-5b2d-a4c9-5048-f8317be8c82d@bitsavers.org>
 <40556bea-687f-7b37-3c7b-3cdd7527a4ec@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <497b4e85-0443-cf02-805b-ef1471602fde@bitsavers.org>



On 11/18/19 10:04 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:

> Does the "Distributed" in "Distributed Function Terminal" refer to / mean the same thing as the "Distributed" in
> "Distributed Systems", which are also known as "Open Systems"?

not really, all it meant was there was some intelligence at the terminal
it wasn't capable of any sort of user-programmable computation

that changed pretty quickly with the wide adoption of the IBM PC

I came across a document recently that showed what a mess IBM had on their hands in 1984
http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/sna/GC30-3085-3_Distributed_Office_Support_System_General_Information_Oct1984.pdf



From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Mon Nov 18 12:43:20 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 11:43:20 -0700
Subject: Question about "Distributed" in the DFT name.
In-Reply-To: <497b4e85-0443-cf02-805b-ef1471602fde@bitsavers.org>
References: <1dda1641-b1f5-58f8-1c37-a070b9e05534@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <91061010-5b2d-a4c9-5048-f8317be8c82d@bitsavers.org>
 <40556bea-687f-7b37-3c7b-3cdd7527a4ec@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <497b4e85-0443-cf02-805b-ef1471602fde@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <55016e98-4ecd-42d1-213a-c403c8bdade3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 11/18/19 11:24 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> not really, all it meant was there was some intelligence at the terminal 
> it wasn't capable of any sort of user-programmable computation

Okay.

Sounds like distributed is just a term collision then.  Thank you for 
the clarification.

> that changed pretty quickly with the wide adoption of the IBM PC
> 
> I came across a document recently that showed 
> what a mess IBM had on their hands in 1984 
> 
> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/sna/GC30-3085-3_Distributed_Office_Support_System_General_Information_Oct1984.pdf 




-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From cctalk at ibm51xx.net  Mon Nov 18 12:44:03 2019
From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 10:44:03 -0800
Subject: Rechargeable Gum Stick Batteries
Message-ID: <000001d59e40$27520580$75f61080$@net>

I am just wondering if anyone out there has a source for cheap but reliable
Rechargeable "gum stick" batteries. I am trying to replace some old
batteries and the only source I could find are these:
www.amazon.com/dp/B0047ZW46C/. Not sure on quality of the generic green
batteries, especially since they are going to be in a computer on an ISA
card and not easily visible. TIA!

-Ali




From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Mon Nov 18 14:37:22 2019
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 20:37:22 -0000
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <a1510a37-c9ae-3785-9d5f-52ba0fd35941@bitsavers.org>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
 <f75983da-a9db-8bb3-8099-3d8649a3e78a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <a1510a37-c9ae-3785-9d5f-52ba0fd35941@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <161501d59e4f$faeb5770$f0c20650$@gmail.com>

Grant,

One thing which complicates things is that we have (roughly) layered protocols in place between the 3174 and the host. 
So at the physical level we have channel attached, SDLC, Token Ring and bi-sync.
Above that we have the channel protocols, HDLC/SDLC and bi-sync polling.
Then we may have SNA (which encompasses many options) to transport the data through the network.
At the top the protocols and frame formats in the Data Streams manual which are broadly the same but with tweaks for SNA, Local and Bi-Sync.

 Dave


> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Al Kossow via
> cctalk
> Sent: 18 November 2019 17:32
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: 3270 controller simulation
> 
> 
> 
> On 11/18/19 9:16 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> 
> > Would you please clarify if you have the "Local" or "Remote" 3174?
> 
> All of my terminal controllers are remote, since I don't have anything with a
> channel.
> 
> I have a small S36 in storage which is why I have some interest in twinax. I
> guess I'd have more if anyone ever gets S34 or 36 running in simulation.
> 
> I have started collecting ISA/PCI/Nubus cards and software for twinax to go
> along with what I've been doing for coax. They are pretty cheap and available
> right now (at least the HW, software is harder) with the exception of the Nubus
> Coax/Twinax board which is unobtanium.
> 
> 



From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Nov 18 15:22:28 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 13:22:28 -0800
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <161501d59e4f$faeb5770$f0c20650$@gmail.com>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
 <f75983da-a9db-8bb3-8099-3d8649a3e78a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <a1510a37-c9ae-3785-9d5f-52ba0fd35941@bitsavers.org>
 <161501d59e4f$faeb5770$f0c20650$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e6e35656-b0b3-0e80-aa42-92c5c69df59d@sydex.com>

On 11/18/19 12:37 PM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote:

> One thing which complicates things is that we have (roughly) layered protocols in place between the 3174 and the host. 
> So at the physical level we have channel attached, SDLC, Token Ring and bi-sync.
> Above that we have the channel protocols, HDLC/SDLC and bi-sync polling.
> Then we may have SNA (which encompasses many options) to transport the data through the network.
> At the top the protocols and frame formats in the Data Streams manual which are broadly the same but with tweaks for SNA, Local and Bi-Sync.


You can say that again.  We never could get HASP running on out 11-750
on BSD.  This was about 1984.   The Berkeley Systems Group even tried
and no soap.    This was a leased line setup with Bell 209 modems.

--Chuck


From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Mon Nov 18 15:31:48 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:31:48 -0700
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <161501d59e4f$faeb5770$f0c20650$@gmail.com>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
 <f75983da-a9db-8bb3-8099-3d8649a3e78a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <a1510a37-c9ae-3785-9d5f-52ba0fd35941@bitsavers.org>
 <161501d59e4f$faeb5770$f0c20650$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ef3592cc-1bdf-2f59-5fcb-0399ef9f7b84@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 11/18/19 1:37 PM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote:
> One thing which complicates things is that we have (roughly) layered 
> protocols in place between the 3174 and the host.

Yep.

I'm trying to actually map them in my head.  I may have to transition to 
paper / white board.

> So at the physical level we have channel attached, SDLC, Token Ring 
> and bi-sync.

*nod*

I think there's Ethernet in there too.

> Above that we have the channel protocols, HDLC/SDLC and bi-sync polling.

ACK

IMHO both the physical (L1 in OSI terms) and protocol (L2) are decidedly 
locally significant and probably mostly agnostic to the higher layer 
network.

> Then we may have SNA (which encompasses many options) to transport the 
> data through the network.

I am guessing that SNA is mostly agnostic to the lower protocols and 
worries more about data movement across one or more lower layer network 
links.

> At the top the protocols and frame formats in the Data Streams manual 
> which are broadly the same but with tweaks for SNA, Local and Bi-Sync.

Is this where APPN / APPC and the likes come into play?  Actual 
application information riding on top of SNA?



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Mon Nov 18 15:36:40 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:36:40 -0700
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <e6e35656-b0b3-0e80-aa42-92c5c69df59d@sydex.com>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
 <f75983da-a9db-8bb3-8099-3d8649a3e78a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <a1510a37-c9ae-3785-9d5f-52ba0fd35941@bitsavers.org>
 <161501d59e4f$faeb5770$f0c20650$@gmail.com>
 <e6e35656-b0b3-0e80-aa42-92c5c69df59d@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <ebccd6d3-edcc-c6b8-43e3-31d4cabec731@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 11/18/19 2:22 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> You can say that again.  We never could get HASP running on out 11-750
> on BSD.  This was about 1984.   The Berkeley Systems Group even tried
> and no soap.    This was a leased line setup with Bell 209 modems.

"?HASP?" MVS / OS/390 / z/OS term.
"?on our 11-750?" that sounds like a VAX term (11/750).

Brain:  Wait a minute.  These are different ecosystems.  Yes, they are 
supposed to be able to communicate, but is that what we're really 
talking about here?

"?Berkeley Systems Group?" that's decidedly BSD, like on a VAX (11/750).
"?leased line?" ecosystem agnostic, but common in IBM.
"?Bell 209 modems?" fits with my understanding of leased lines.

Brain:  Yep, it looks like we're crossing ecosystems.

Chuck, I think you are the first person that I've heard / read about 
with direct exposure to HASP on non-IBM platforms.  I've heard / read 
that it's supposed to be possible.  But I've not had first hand accounts 
before.  Now I have.  Thank you.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From barythrin at gmail.com  Mon Nov 18 15:49:34 2019
From: barythrin at gmail.com (John Herron)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 15:49:34 -0600
Subject: Houston Computer Museum Warehouse Liquidation
In-Reply-To: <CAAQeJU7h2m+DvJaO1bdVyzu2Qbu9z-LJpb4iPuuSKM7YbRLOeA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAQeJU7h2m+DvJaO1bdVyzu2Qbu9z-LJpb4iPuuSKM7YbRLOeA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEOGs+ibSHSQF=fUYTpqzmv2ox8vBq-3LhRcsM30XUvZztAA7w@mail.gmail.com>

Just curious but are these sales helping John and family or has this
officially been turned over?

Most of these have been underwater for an unknown amount of time, correct?

On Sun, Nov 17, 2019, 6:39 PM Thomas Raguso via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I have located the Cray Y-MP EL, in addition to other other interesting
> items, including an Intergraph 6400 workstation with tablet, a PDP-11/23,
> an IBM System/34 with 5251 terminal and keyboard, a Unisys A-Series
> mainframe, and a Symbolics 3640 Lisp machine (includes console, but there
> is no keyboard).
>
> Pictures can be found here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/rgkBddeuosjnJ3TC6
>
> I am taking offers on all of the above listed items.
>
> Thomas Raguso
>

From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Nov 18 15:50:11 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 13:50:11 -0800
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <ebccd6d3-edcc-c6b8-43e3-31d4cabec731@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
 <f75983da-a9db-8bb3-8099-3d8649a3e78a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <a1510a37-c9ae-3785-9d5f-52ba0fd35941@bitsavers.org>
 <161501d59e4f$faeb5770$f0c20650$@gmail.com>
 <e6e35656-b0b3-0e80-aa42-92c5c69df59d@sydex.com>
 <ebccd6d3-edcc-c6b8-43e3-31d4cabec731@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <c6107c1a-3316-9e91-c9e1-817ad6ce1b3c@bitsavers.org>



On 11/18/19 1:36 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:

> "?HASP?" MVS / OS/390 / z/OS term.

OS/360

Houston (as in NASA) Automatic Spooling Program

http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/360/hasp/HASP_II_Manual_Jun72

and lots of implementations of 2780/3780 RJE stations
I have the one for the PDP-11 somewhere (on fiche?)
It wound up in the DECUS PDP11 library.


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Mon Nov 18 15:59:28 2019
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 21:59:28 -0000
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <ef3592cc-1bdf-2f59-5fcb-0399ef9f7b84@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
 <f75983da-a9db-8bb3-8099-3d8649a3e78a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <a1510a37-c9ae-3785-9d5f-52ba0fd35941@bitsavers.org>
 <161501d59e4f$faeb5770$f0c20650$@gmail.com>
 <ef3592cc-1bdf-2f59-5fcb-0399ef9f7b84@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <16a201d59e5b$73699710$5a3cc530$@gmail.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Grant Taylor via
> cctalk
> Sent: 18 November 2019 21:32
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: 3270 controller simulation
> 
> On 11/18/19 1:37 PM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote:
> > One thing which complicates things is that we have (roughly) layered
> > protocols in place between the 3174 and the host.
> 
> Yep.
> 
> I'm trying to actually map them in my head.  I may have to transition to paper /
> white board.
> 
> > So at the physical level we have channel attached, SDLC, Token Ring
> > and bi-sync.
> 
> *nod*
> 
> I think there's Ethernet in there too.
> 

Yes that?s in there....


> > Above that we have the channel protocols, HDLC/SDLC and bi-sync polling.
> 
> ACK
> 
> IMHO both the physical (L1 in OSI terms) and protocol (L2) are decidedly locally
> significant and probably mostly agnostic to the higher layer network.
> 

BiSync polling gets in the way at the top....

> > Then we may have SNA (which encompasses many options) to transport the
> > data through the network.
> 
> I am guessing that SNA is mostly agnostic to the lower protocols and worries
> more about data movement across one or more lower layer network links.
> 

Sadly no. If we are talking VTAM rather than TCAM then the layers are somewhat ill defined. From

http://vm.marist.edu/~vmshare/browse.cgi?fn=HUMOR91&ft=MEMO&args=sna+joke#hit

April Foolishness
==============

We present here fanciful ideas and interpretations related
to VM, IBM, and computing in general.

o Networking breakthrough:  for those  days when your   cooperative applications won't,  IBM introduces APPS
  (Advanced Program-to-Program Squabbling). This brings the   confusion and disruption of incompatible computers and
  unspecified interfaces to the farthest reaches of an   enterprise's network.

Append on 03/30/88 at 17:40 by Jean Rall Grumman Data Systems 516-575-7140:

Thought I'd pass this on;

Conversation between a caller and John Akers:
CALLER:  Hello, John?
AKERS:   Yes?
CALLER:  John Akers?
AKERS:   Yes?
CALLER:  John F. Akers?
AKERS:   Yeah?
CALLER:  John F. Akers, CEO for IBM?
AKERS:   Yes, what is it?
CALLER:  John F. Akers, CEO for IBM in Armonk?
AKERS:   Yes, that's right, what do you want?
CALLER:  John F. Akers, CEO for IBM in Armonk, ...?
    (etc. for a few more exchanges)
AKERS:   All right, enough!  What is going on here?!
CALLER:  Oh, not much John.  Just thought you would like to know what it
         is like to talk over SNA.

*** APPENDED 03/30/88 17:40:44 BY GDS/JEAN ***

And from

http://vm.marist.edu/~vmshare/browse.cgi?fn=HUMOR88&ft=MEMO&args=sna+joke+connection#hit

Append on 03/30/88 at 17:40 by Jean Rall Grumman Data Systems 516-575-7140:

Thought I'd pass this on;

Conversation between a caller and John Akers:
CALLER:  Hello, John?
AKERS:   Yes?
CALLER:  John Akers?
AKERS:   Yes?
CALLER:  John F. Akers?
AKERS:   Yeah?
CALLER:  John F. Akers, CEO for IBM?
AKERS:   Yes, what is it?
CALLER:  John F. Akers, CEO for IBM in Armonk?
AKERS:   Yes, that's right, what do you want?
CALLER:  John F. Akers, CEO for IBM in Armonk, ...?
    (etc. for a few more exchanges)
AKERS:   All right, enough!  What is going on here?!
CALLER:  Oh, not much John.  Just thought you would like to know what it
         is like to talk over SNA.

*** APPENDED 03/30/88 17:40:44 BY GDS/JEAN ***

Seriously the SNA Bind is an animal to reckoned with.  I haven't included the SNA manuals, but if you are suffering from insomnia you may wish to browse...

http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/sna/GC20-1869-2_SNA_Introduction_to_Sessions_Between_Logical_Units_Dec79.pdf

> > At the top the protocols and frame formats in the Data Streams manual
> > which are broadly the same but with tweaks for SNA, Local and Bi-Sync.
> 
> Is this where APPN / APPC and the likes come into play?  Actual application
> information riding on top of SNA?
> 

Well sort of. APPN/APPC is deeply integrated in SNA. See above... 

> 
> 
> --
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die

Dave


From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Mon Nov 18 16:12:26 2019
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 17:12:26 -0500
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <e6e35656-b0b3-0e80-aa42-92c5c69df59d@sydex.com>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
 <f75983da-a9db-8bb3-8099-3d8649a3e78a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <a1510a37-c9ae-3785-9d5f-52ba0fd35941@bitsavers.org>
 <161501d59e4f$faeb5770$f0c20650$@gmail.com>
 <e6e35656-b0b3-0e80-aa42-92c5c69df59d@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimkHZOTwcri92EmX2+1Dra+RuhT6gKdGCBwP4p0cZAkufg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 4:22 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> You can say that again.  We never could get HASP running on out 11-750
> on BSD.  This was about 1984.   The Berkeley Systems Group even tried
> and no soap.    This was a leased line setup with Bell 209 modems.

I used to do that for a living between 1984-1994.  We had our own
board (68000, front-end application running out of local RAM,
VMS/RSTS/Unix app talking to our board to read/write/print files
to/from the bisync link).  I know there were apps that supposedly ran
entirely on the VAX that used dumb sync serial cards (DUP-11, etc) but
we sold a lot of COMBOARDs to people who tried that first and gave up.

We sold HASP, 3780 and SNA products.  The SNA products were a bear to
get working at different customer sites.  We had a entire chapter of
docs, meant to be printed out and handed to the IBM folks, just about
how to configure the BIND.  Our SNA product emulated a PU Type 2 and
let you connect from your local VT100 and appear to be a 3270 session.
It mostly worked once you got the BIND right.  Bisync was a _lot_
easier to configure and get working.

-ethan

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Mon Nov 18 16:15:33 2019
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 17:15:33 -0500
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <16a201d59e5b$73699710$5a3cc530$@gmail.com>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
 <f75983da-a9db-8bb3-8099-3d8649a3e78a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <a1510a37-c9ae-3785-9d5f-52ba0fd35941@bitsavers.org>
 <161501d59e4f$faeb5770$f0c20650$@gmail.com>
 <ef3592cc-1bdf-2f59-5fcb-0399ef9f7b84@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <16a201d59e5b$73699710$5a3cc530$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7BE1DCF6-B4EA-4F03-A395-530DA4AE50D9@comcast.net>



> On Nov 18, 2019, at 4:59 PM, Dave Wade via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> ...
> 
> Thought I'd pass this on;
> 
> Conversation between a caller and John Akers:
> CALLER:  Hello, John?
> AKERS:   Yes?
> CALLER:  John Akers?
> AKERS:   Yes?
> CALLER:  John F. Akers?
> AKERS:   Yeah?
> CALLER:  John F. Akers, CEO for IBM?
> AKERS:   Yes, what is it?
> CALLER:  John F. Akers, CEO for IBM in Armonk?
> AKERS:   Yes, that's right, what do you want?
> CALLER:  John F. Akers, CEO for IBM in Armonk, ...?
>    (etc. for a few more exchanges)
> AKERS:   All right, enough!  What is going on here?!
> CALLER:  Oh, not much John.  Just thought you would like to know what it
>         is like to talk over SNA.

Neat.  I vaguely remember being told that SNA had a 13-packet connect handshake -- unlike efficient transports (TCP, DECnet NSP) which have a 3-packet handshake.

	paul


From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Nov 18 16:17:39 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:17:39 -0800
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <ebccd6d3-edcc-c6b8-43e3-31d4cabec731@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
 <f75983da-a9db-8bb3-8099-3d8649a3e78a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <a1510a37-c9ae-3785-9d5f-52ba0fd35941@bitsavers.org>
 <161501d59e4f$faeb5770$f0c20650$@gmail.com>
 <e6e35656-b0b3-0e80-aa42-92c5c69df59d@sydex.com>
 <ebccd6d3-edcc-c6b8-43e3-31d4cabec731@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <775c5e4e-6c41-02b6-1adb-89206774cfdf@sydex.com>

On 11/18/19 1:36 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> On 11/18/19 2:22 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>> You can say that again.? We never could get HASP running on out 11-750
>> on BSD.? This was about 1984.?? The Berkeley Systems Group even tried
>> and no soap.??? This was a leased line setup with Bell 209 modems.
> 
> "?HASP?" MVS / OS/390 / z/OS term.
> "?on our 11-750?" that sounds like a VAX term (11/750).
> 
> Brain:? Wait a minute.? These are different ecosystems.? Yes, they are
> supposed to be able to communicate, but is that what we're really
> talking about here?

You've got that right--we leased our VAX on the condition from the
vendor that it could run HASP.  The BSD folks had a package from a third
party that claimed to do that.

We never figured out that it could.

The leased line was a 9600 bps sync from St. Paul to Santa Clara.  IIRC,
it was about $5K/month.

IBM hardware on the far end, feeding an ETA 10 system.   How's that for
a bizarre configuration?

Would have been nice had it worked.

By 1990, 9600 bps over voice-grade lines would be abysmally slow.


--Chuck

From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Nov 18 16:41:40 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:41:40 -0800
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimkHZOTwcri92EmX2+1Dra+RuhT6gKdGCBwP4p0cZAkufg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
 <f75983da-a9db-8bb3-8099-3d8649a3e78a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <a1510a37-c9ae-3785-9d5f-52ba0fd35941@bitsavers.org>
 <161501d59e4f$faeb5770$f0c20650$@gmail.com>
 <e6e35656-b0b3-0e80-aa42-92c5c69df59d@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimkHZOTwcri92EmX2+1Dra+RuhT6gKdGCBwP4p0cZAkufg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8e386ad6-f525-f0cd-98cb-074cbcd1ae91@bitsavers.org>



On 11/18/19 2:12 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:
>  Our SNA product emulated a PU Type 2 and
> let you connect from your local VT100 and appear to be a 3270 session.

does that code still exist?

I have two stand-alone boxes
IBM 3708 and Interlynx/3278 that essentially do that, SDLC -> multi-port VT100


From a.carlini at ntlworld.com  Mon Nov 18 16:59:57 2019
From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 22:59:57 +0000
Subject: RX01 wants
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimmM=Oe8FmuxfQTz87MAHk_kjmhcHaaViGJYOEyTNv+f7Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <D02A4EAB-B5AC-4524-A92E-5367930CD6D0@fritzm.org>
 <CACwhfuNHr6u05AAEk6kyKi++jDLkWPVhuEP-2Dzm8QWps7HMBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <703C27A6-A76E-40A4-90D9-A395D2CEC026@fritzm.org>
 <CAALmimnfpKjH+KqCU0VPEq1DiE1zDjEOpsYEDvyJho3LrWSs5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <3A9EC653-0518-4B3F-9F55-AEB22B45F790@fritzm.org>
 <CAALmimmM=Oe8FmuxfQTz87MAHk_kjmhcHaaViGJYOEyTNv+f7Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <18ce4ce1-caa3-66a4-88d3-984e44440d13@ntlworld.com>

On 18/11/2019 02:30, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:
> Here's a photo of the VT78 on its table over the tabletop RX02 box.
> You can see the bent metal "rails" in the bottom - the drive box just
> slides back on those.  Quite minimal.
>
> http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pics/vt78/vt78.jpg


That's exactly what mine looked like when I picked it up a decade and a 
half ago. Works too. Well worked then, not sure about now.

I left the table behind. I promise to kick myself ...


Nice use of the word "minimal" ... have you lifted a dual RX02 lately :-)


Antonio



-- 
Antonio Carlini
antonio at acarlini.com


From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Mon Nov 18 17:08:02 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 16:08:02 -0700
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimmjD75ZLgSMHfwZae0drGubWv8GimC7No1hdE2gcBwweA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
 <f75983da-a9db-8bb3-8099-3d8649a3e78a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <a1510a37-c9ae-3785-9d5f-52ba0fd35941@bitsavers.org>
 <161501d59e4f$faeb5770$f0c20650$@gmail.com>
 <e6e35656-b0b3-0e80-aa42-92c5c69df59d@sydex.com>
 <ebccd6d3-edcc-c6b8-43e3-31d4cabec731@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAALmimmjD75ZLgSMHfwZae0drGubWv8GimC7No1hdE2gcBwweA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f74e86ae-8880-dc72-2dbe-cbbf06866a82@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 11/18/19 3:14 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> I could fill books about the topic... we sold hundreds of Unibus and Qbus 
> boards (and a few VAXBI boards) for bisync, and dozens of boards for SNA.

~chuckle~

> I have all the hardware and software and documentation from Software 
> Results, but there is nobody left out there to talk Bisync to.

I wonder if some of the people in the mainframe community would be 
interested in running Bisync.  But I don't know what sort of hardware 
interface would still be usable.  :-/

There's work afoot to create a new BITNET.  But I think that's using 
NJE, likely across TCP.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Mon Nov 18 17:15:04 2019
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 18:15:04 -0500
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <8e386ad6-f525-f0cd-98cb-074cbcd1ae91@bitsavers.org>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
 <f75983da-a9db-8bb3-8099-3d8649a3e78a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <a1510a37-c9ae-3785-9d5f-52ba0fd35941@bitsavers.org>
 <161501d59e4f$faeb5770$f0c20650$@gmail.com>
 <e6e35656-b0b3-0e80-aa42-92c5c69df59d@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimkHZOTwcri92EmX2+1Dra+RuhT6gKdGCBwP4p0cZAkufg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8e386ad6-f525-f0cd-98cb-074cbcd1ae91@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <78780651-e9a6-26f9-5c07-7e8967b3cbe4@alembic.crystel.com>

I have some old boards and documentation for Unibus cards that would 
talk X.25, BISYNC and I think SNA. Any value?

C

On 11/18/2019 5:41 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
> On 11/18/19 2:12 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:
>>   Our SNA product emulated a PU Type 2 and
>> let you connect from your local VT100 and appear to be a 3270 session.
> 
> does that code still exist?
> 
> I have two stand-alone boxes
> IBM 3708 and Interlynx/3278 that essentially do that, SDLC -> multi-port VT100
> 

From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Mon Nov 18 18:36:43 2019
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 18:36:43 -0600
Subject: Discord
In-Reply-To: <004f01d59e0f$73cadb70$5b609250$@classiccmp.org>
References: <000201d59bd9$b4b5a7b0$1e20f710$@classiccmp.org>
 <20191115105416.6ee7feb4@officew7>
 <000101d59be9$20582330$61086990$@classiccmp.org>
 <CAEOGs+hV3apz6ZFwE3-ki6qQ8gSxJLUPN8b2sHUHyDYZYutNag@mail.gmail.com>
 <004f01d59e0f$73cadb70$5b609250$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs239uRbub9D0ewbUx8hWw0H=eTc91YPQgiiH=oEqRw7UiA@mail.gmail.com>

aww team speak spent lots hours on that playing red faction

On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 1:30 PM jwest--- via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> John wrote...
> >Just an fyi the mohaa site only loads an Apache test page.
> That's because it isn't a 'site'. The dns name mohaa.todesplace.org is
> for the game clients to connect to. The website at www.todesplace.org is
> just for my players. For the teamspeak server - teamspeak.todesplace.org.
>
> On Fri, Nov 15, 2019, 3:10 PM jwest--- via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
> > Medal of Honor : Allied Assault
>
>
>

From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Nov 18 18:37:04 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 16:37:04 -0800
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <78780651-e9a6-26f9-5c07-7e8967b3cbe4@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
 <f75983da-a9db-8bb3-8099-3d8649a3e78a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <a1510a37-c9ae-3785-9d5f-52ba0fd35941@bitsavers.org>
 <161501d59e4f$faeb5770$f0c20650$@gmail.com>
 <e6e35656-b0b3-0e80-aa42-92c5c69df59d@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimkHZOTwcri92EmX2+1Dra+RuhT6gKdGCBwP4p0cZAkufg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8e386ad6-f525-f0cd-98cb-074cbcd1ae91@bitsavers.org>
 <78780651-e9a6-26f9-5c07-7e8967b3cbe4@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <988f5913-4e63-759d-1171-1c4d60c83323@bitsavers.org>



On 11/18/19 3:15 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
> I have some old boards and documentation for Unibus cards that would talk X.25, BISYNC and I think SNA. Any value?

yes, it would be good to get this archived on bitsavers
should talk to ethan about his stuff as well



From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Nov 18 18:42:11 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 16:42:11 -0800
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <988f5913-4e63-759d-1171-1c4d60c83323@bitsavers.org>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
 <f75983da-a9db-8bb3-8099-3d8649a3e78a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <a1510a37-c9ae-3785-9d5f-52ba0fd35941@bitsavers.org>
 <161501d59e4f$faeb5770$f0c20650$@gmail.com>
 <e6e35656-b0b3-0e80-aa42-92c5c69df59d@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimkHZOTwcri92EmX2+1Dra+RuhT6gKdGCBwP4p0cZAkufg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8e386ad6-f525-f0cd-98cb-074cbcd1ae91@bitsavers.org>
 <78780651-e9a6-26f9-5c07-7e8967b3cbe4@alembic.crystel.com>
 <988f5913-4e63-759d-1171-1c4d60c83323@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <42568d42-dc43-7706-67b4-fdbc16d70c4f@bitsavers.org>



On 11/18/19 4:37 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
> On 11/18/19 3:15 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
>> I have some old boards and documentation for Unibus cards that would talk X.25, BISYNC and I think SNA. Any value?
> 
> yes, it would be good to get this archived on bitsavers
> should talk to ethan about his stuff as well
> 
> 

I find it interesting that the field of comms interoperability with IBM mainframes was huge up until TCP/IP
took over, and all traces of the software implementations have disappeared or were consolidated into a couple
like Micro Focus.



From cw at cfsimmons.com  Mon Nov 18 18:57:17 2019
From: cw at cfsimmons.com (cw)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 00:57:17 +0000
Subject: FPGA based 3174 replacement
In-Reply-To: <<083A86A8-5B37-42C2-AA60-DD09F9F22887@cfsimmons.com>>
Message-ID: <7133D5F8-62E5-4622-8732-37A5D8C337B9@contoso.com>

I have made the module available at https://github.com/cwsimmons/raw3270
For now it probably looks like a mess, but I hope to add comments and build the coax circuit later this week. I just wanted to get it out there now since I know there is interest.
Chris

From matt at 9track.net  Mon Nov 18 19:06:55 2019
From: matt at 9track.net (Matt Burke)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 01:06:55 +0000
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <828fad08-cef0-b0f6-ed9b-c8d577aa5729@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
 <f75983da-a9db-8bb3-8099-3d8649a3e78a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <140501d59e37$006756e0$013604a0$@gmail.com>
 <828fad08-cef0-b0f6-ed9b-c8d577aa5729@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <0f26b6c4-8ef7-da5d-bc2c-5f646552f0d3@9track.net>

On 18/11/2019 17:52, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
>
> Am I understanding you correctly to mean that Hercules itself has some
> DLSw functionality?
>
Not in the current release. These are some modifications I've made to
comm3705.c to add DLSw support. When used in conjunction with a Cisco
router and a WAN card such as WIC-2T it essentially gives an SDLC port
that can be accessed over IP. This means that no special hardware is
required in the system running Hercules. Also I don't have to worry
about the SDLC protocol as that is handled by the router. I just
transfer SNA packets between VTAM and the 3174.

I went down this route because I wanted to connect real 3270 terminals
to Hercules, however finding a 3174 with Token Ring or Ethernet proved
to be very difficult (or expensive). I was able to to get a 3174-91R
though so I decided to code my way around the problem :)

For the question regarding 515x terminal emulation that should be
possible using this setup (in reverse). You can send whatever you want
over the DLSw/SDLC link, it doesn't have to be SNA.

Matt

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Mon Nov 18 19:14:10 2019
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 20:14:10 -0500
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <8e386ad6-f525-f0cd-98cb-074cbcd1ae91@bitsavers.org>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
 <f75983da-a9db-8bb3-8099-3d8649a3e78a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <a1510a37-c9ae-3785-9d5f-52ba0fd35941@bitsavers.org>
 <161501d59e4f$faeb5770$f0c20650$@gmail.com>
 <e6e35656-b0b3-0e80-aa42-92c5c69df59d@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimkHZOTwcri92EmX2+1Dra+RuhT6gKdGCBwP4p0cZAkufg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8e386ad6-f525-f0cd-98cb-074cbcd1ae91@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CAALmimkTDJBrjhB=ncz7SAW=Cnfh-gtrEKZXXMt_ZMZc-dhSjQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 5:50 PM Al Kossow via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> On 11/18/19 2:12 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:
> >  Our SNA product emulated a PU Type 2 and
> > let you connect from your local VT100 and appear to be a 3270 session.
>
> does that code still exist?

I have all the code.  Among other places it's in VMS saveset files on
one of my Linux laptops I use for project hacking.

We licensed an existing product and rewrote it extensively for part of
the application code to run on a COMBOARD (MC68000, 128K/512K local
RAM, COM5025 USART, DMA interface to Unibus/Qbus) and the other part
on the VAX, with a lot of shared memory blocks to split the work
across both CPUs (the DMA engine mapped the entire Qbus/Unibus space
into 68000 space so on the COMBOARD you could treat VAX memory like
local memory but it was just slower).

The actual technique could be illuminating to examine, but to run the
code in its present form would require our custom front-end board.

I do remember that it was a multi-person-multi-year effort to get that
complicated wad of code working split across the bus.  99% of my
coding work there was with the Bisync products so I am not the
foremost authority on our SNA product.  I had to handle support calls
but I never fixed bugs on it.

-ethan

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Mon Nov 18 19:22:48 2019
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 20:22:48 -0500
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <42568d42-dc43-7706-67b4-fdbc16d70c4f@bitsavers.org>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
 <f75983da-a9db-8bb3-8099-3d8649a3e78a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <a1510a37-c9ae-3785-9d5f-52ba0fd35941@bitsavers.org>
 <161501d59e4f$faeb5770$f0c20650$@gmail.com>
 <e6e35656-b0b3-0e80-aa42-92c5c69df59d@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimkHZOTwcri92EmX2+1Dra+RuhT6gKdGCBwP4p0cZAkufg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8e386ad6-f525-f0cd-98cb-074cbcd1ae91@bitsavers.org>
 <78780651-e9a6-26f9-5c07-7e8967b3cbe4@alembic.crystel.com>
 <988f5913-4e63-759d-1171-1c4d60c83323@bitsavers.org>
 <42568d42-dc43-7706-67b4-fdbc16d70c4f@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CAALmimkQuNdQ512dq8S+FxqnO2VhWw4PbWQiDZkE3YjihtRtXQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 7:42 PM Al Kossow via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> I find it interesting that the field of comms interoperability with IBM mainframes was huge up until TCP/IP
> took over, and all traces of the software implementations have disappeared or were consolidated into a couple
> like Micro Focus.

The golden years of Software Results and COMBOARDs were 1982-1986,
perhaps a little later, but not much.  By early 1989, we really didn't
have many board sales, just maintenance contracts for the existing
customer base and an occasional upgrade sale (Unibus->VAXBI or
Unibus-Qbus).  By 1994, there weren't that many customers left on
maintenance.  The last contract expired around February 1995.

We did have a last breath of demand in the early 90s that garnered a
tiny handful of sales - when EDI began to take hold, one of the
standard transport models was 3780 to an IBM service that essentially
took care of delivery in the fashion of an ISP.  If you wanted to use
that network, you needed _a_ product that would move files using sync
modems and the 3780 protocol.  There were a couple of PC products that
could do it, and we were one of the last companies still in the Bisync
space for minicomputers.

After EDI moved to TCP/IP, that was all over.

But in the early 80s, we made a few million dollars getting PDP-11s
and VAXen to interoperate with IBM mainframes.  At that time, lots of
large companies needed it, then fairly quickly nobody needed it.

-ethan

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Mon Nov 18 19:29:14 2019
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 20:29:14 -0500
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <78780651-e9a6-26f9-5c07-7e8967b3cbe4@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
 <f75983da-a9db-8bb3-8099-3d8649a3e78a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <a1510a37-c9ae-3785-9d5f-52ba0fd35941@bitsavers.org>
 <161501d59e4f$faeb5770$f0c20650$@gmail.com>
 <e6e35656-b0b3-0e80-aa42-92c5c69df59d@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimkHZOTwcri92EmX2+1Dra+RuhT6gKdGCBwP4p0cZAkufg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8e386ad6-f525-f0cd-98cb-074cbcd1ae91@bitsavers.org>
 <78780651-e9a6-26f9-5c07-7e8967b3cbe4@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimnbaenhUQOxAGa2KZYA_rP70-_SSFGMRZ6tjfqaQ45w6A@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 6:15 PM Chris Zach via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> I have some old boards and documentation for Unibus cards that would
> talk X.25, BISYNC and I think SNA. Any value?

Probably some small value, but as we (I?) have been discussing, the
applications that used those cards weren't easy to get working or
didn't work well once you did get them set up.  Moving bytes across
them is easy but having a robust application layer was another matter
entirely.

I still have a few hundred COM5025 chips in storage that I haven't
bothered to send out for gold scrap...

-ethan

From nw.johnson at ieee.org  Mon Nov 18 19:30:25 2019
From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 20:30:25 -0500
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimkQuNdQ512dq8S+FxqnO2VhWw4PbWQiDZkE3YjihtRtXQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
 <f75983da-a9db-8bb3-8099-3d8649a3e78a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <a1510a37-c9ae-3785-9d5f-52ba0fd35941@bitsavers.org>
 <161501d59e4f$faeb5770$f0c20650$@gmail.com>
 <e6e35656-b0b3-0e80-aa42-92c5c69df59d@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimkHZOTwcri92EmX2+1Dra+RuhT6gKdGCBwP4p0cZAkufg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8e386ad6-f525-f0cd-98cb-074cbcd1ae91@bitsavers.org>
 <78780651-e9a6-26f9-5c07-7e8967b3cbe4@alembic.crystel.com>
 <988f5913-4e63-759d-1171-1c4d60c83323@bitsavers.org>
 <42568d42-dc43-7706-67b4-fdbc16d70c4f@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimkQuNdQ512dq8S+FxqnO2VhWw4PbWQiDZkE3YjihtRtXQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9ac6ac43-4735-573f-69c3-039e613973ce@ieee.org>

I was the Canadian GM of Emulex, whose Persyst Division made a bi-sync 
card for the PC.? I was stunned when, in the era of TCP/IP 
interconnectivity, a client kept on talking about a 'sign-on' card :-) I 
just smile dand accepted his order for lots of product!


On 18/11/2019 20:22, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 7:42 PM Al Kossow via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> I find it interesting that the field of comms interoperability with IBM mainframes was huge up until TCP/IP
>> took over, and all traces of the software implementations have disappeared or were consolidated into a couple
>> like Micro Focus.
> The golden years of Software Results and COMBOARDs were 1982-1986,
> perhaps a little later, but not much.  By early 1989, we really didn't
> have many board sales, just maintenance contracts for the existing
> customer base and an occasional upgrade sale (Unibus->VAXBI or
> Unibus-Qbus).  By 1994, there weren't that many customers left on
> maintenance.  The last contract expired around February 1995.
>
> We did have a last breath of demand in the early 90s that garnered a
> tiny handful of sales - when EDI began to take hold, one of the
> standard transport models was 3780 to an IBM service that essentially
> took care of delivery in the fashion of an ISP.  If you wanted to use
> that network, you needed _a_ product that would move files using sync
> modems and the 3780 protocol.  There were a couple of PC products that
> could do it, and we were one of the last companies still in the Bisync
> space for minicomputers.
>
> After EDI moved to TCP/IP, that was all over.
>
> But in the early 80s, we made a few million dollars getting PDP-11s
> and VAXen to interoperate with IBM mainframes.  At that time, lots of
> large companies needed it, then fairly quickly nobody needed it.
>
> -ethan

  

-- 
Nigel Johnson
MSc., MIEEE
VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU

Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!


You can reach me by voice on Skype:  TILBURY2591

If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday

This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way.
    Nigel Johnson <nw.johnson at ieee.org>

     
Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message




From wrcooke at wrcooke.net  Mon Nov 18 19:36:51 2019
From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 19:36:51 -0600 (CST)
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <42568d42-dc43-7706-67b4-fdbc16d70c4f@bitsavers.org>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
 <f75983da-a9db-8bb3-8099-3d8649a3e78a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <a1510a37-c9ae-3785-9d5f-52ba0fd35941@bitsavers.org>
 <161501d59e4f$faeb5770$f0c20650$@gmail.com>
 <e6e35656-b0b3-0e80-aa42-92c5c69df59d@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimkHZOTwcri92EmX2+1Dra+RuhT6gKdGCBwP4p0cZAkufg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8e386ad6-f525-f0cd-98cb-074cbcd1ae91@bitsavers.org>
 <78780651-e9a6-26f9-5c07-7e8967b3cbe4@alembic.crystel.com>
 <988f5913-4e63-759d-1171-1c4d60c83323@bitsavers.org>
 <42568d42-dc43-7706-67b4-fdbc16d70c4f@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <349539961.713497.1574127411732@email.ionos.com>

> On November 18, 2019 at 6:42 PM Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> On 11/18/19 4:37 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:> On 11/18/19 3:15 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:> I have some old boards and documentation for Unibus cards that would talk X.25, BISYNC and I think SNA. Any value?yes, it would be good to get this archived on bitsaversshould talk to ethan about his stuff as wellI find it interesting that the field of comms interoperability with IBM mainframes was huge up until TCP/IPtook over, and all traces of the software implementations have disappeared or were consolidated into a couplelike Micro Focus.


I find it interesting that one of the few remaining mainframe third parties is called Micro Focus

Will

From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Nov 18 19:45:59 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 17:45:59 -0800
Subject: message from andrew (was 3270 controller simulation)
In-Reply-To: <CAGc_3RywdTXTC3F_TeSkAujwzCmTtDdooDi_C15s1UvmigWbhw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGc_3RywdTXTC3F_TeSkAujwzCmTtDdooDi_C15s1UvmigWbhw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45efe6d4-de88-1ff9-424f-06dedcce3b24@bitsavers.org>




-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 19:43:24 -0600
From: Andrew Kay
To: aek at bitsavers.org

Hi Al,

I'm waiting for approval to join the cctalk mailing list but I heard
on IRC you were interested in my project so hope you don't mind me
reaching out to you directly.

Unfortunately I don't have much in the way of useful documentation
other than the code itself right now - I am planning on putting some
documentation on the protocol together as well as a basic write-up on
what I've discovered.

Anyway - everything I've built so far can be found at
https://github.com/lowobservable/oec and the linked projects (for the
coax interface and TN3270 library).

It's still pretty basic at this point but can do enough TN3270 and
VT100 emulation to be usable.  Here is a more recent photograph
showing it connected to the Master the Mainframe server -
https://i.redd.it/1kpbe3muvbz31.jpg.

For the coax interface I'm using two obsolete ICs from National
Semiconductor - the DP8340 and DP8341 and using an Arduino to connect
these to a PC.  I was really excited to see somebody on the mailing
list mention they were working on an FPGA interface - building an
interface that didn't depend on obsolete components is my plan for
next year but I have to learn some electronics first.

Please feel free to copy the above to the mailing list - I definitely
want to join (do you know if it is possible to join with a GMail
account, the last I heard was I was waiting to be approved), I had no
idea there were so many people interested in 3270 things :-)


Andrew


From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Mon Nov 18 19:54:20 2019
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 20:54:20 -0500
Subject: RD54 jumper settings and cable settings
Message-ID: <40216329-2885-8fdb-77c1-855897099c10@alembic.crystel.com>

Finally got my xxdp+ floppy in the mail. The RX50 is flakey (probably 
needs a head cleaning, 95% isopropyl safe on these heads?) but I have it 
booted. Problem is in the RQDX3 formatter the drive shows up as drive 0, 
but generates an FCT write error.

Questions:
1) I assume all cables in the BA23 chassis should have pin 1 to the left 
(away from fans), correct?
2) On the RD54 should it be jumpered as drive 1, or drive 4, or 
something in-between?
3) On the BA23 panel I assume the ready light should be on, the ready 
buttom for the RD54 should not be pressed, and the write protect light 
should be off with the write protect button not pressed, correct?

One step at a time, as they say....

C

From alan at alanlee.org  Mon Nov 18 21:27:04 2019
From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 22:27:04 -0500
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <a1510a37-c9ae-3785-9d5f-52ba0fd35941@bitsavers.org>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
 <f75983da-a9db-8bb3-8099-3d8649a3e78a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <a1510a37-c9ae-3785-9d5f-52ba0fd35941@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <af2e71009ad4aa6aff59161bb53e1730@alanlee.org>


My interest is I have a S/36 with both TwinAx and SDLC.  SDLC is a lot 
easier to interface to.  But I have built a electrical interface board 
to go from a balun'd RJ11 twin-ax interface to an FPGA with the intent 
on eventually building an open-source TwinAx <--> USB converter.  Sounds 
like there's a lot of interest.  If anyone is wanting to help or test, 
I'll move this up the priority list.

-Alan

On 2019-11-18 12:31, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> On 11/18/19 9:16 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> Would you please clarify if you have the "Local" or "Remote" 3174?
> 
> All of my terminal controllers are remote, since I don't have anything
> with a channel.
> 
> I have a small S36 in storage which is why I have some interest in
> twinax. I guess I'd have more if anyone ever gets S34 or 36 running
> in simulation.
> 
> I have started collecting ISA/PCI/Nubus cards and software for twinax
> to go along with what I've been doing for coax. They are pretty cheap
> and available right now (at least the HW, software is harder) with
> the exception of the Nubus Coax/Twinax board which is unobtanium.

From fmc at reanimators.org  Mon Nov 18 21:34:02 2019
From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 19:34:02 -0800
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <42568d42-dc43-7706-67b4-fdbc16d70c4f@bitsavers.org>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
 <f75983da-a9db-8bb3-8099-3d8649a3e78a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <a1510a37-c9ae-3785-9d5f-52ba0fd35941@bitsavers.org>
 <161501d59e4f$faeb5770$f0c20650$@gmail.com>
 <e6e35656-b0b3-0e80-aa42-92c5c69df59d@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimkHZOTwcri92EmX2+1Dra+RuhT6gKdGCBwP4p0cZAkufg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8e386ad6-f525-f0cd-98cb-074cbcd1ae91@bitsavers.org>
 <78780651-e9a6-26f9-5c07-7e8967b3cbe4@alembic.crystel.com>
 <988f5913-4e63-759d-1171-1c4d60c83323@bitsavers.org>
 <42568d42-dc43-7706-67b4-fdbc16d70c4f@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <E6A961A0-FE35-41BE-A554-E80B0394A076@reanimators.org>

On Nov 18, 2019, at 16:42, Al Kossow via wrote:
> On 11/18/19 4:37 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> On 11/18/19 3:15 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
>>> I have some old boards and documentation for Unibus cards that would talk X.25, BISYNC and I think SNA. Any value?
>> 
>> yes, it would be good to get this archived on bitsavers
>> should talk to ethan about his stuff as well
> 
> I find it interesting that the field of comms interoperability with IBM mainframes was huge up until TCP/IP
> took over, and all traces of the software implementations have disappeared or were consolidated into a couple
> like Micro Focus.

Many of the TCP/IP companies have disappeared/consolidated into Micro Focus too, even the ones who moved up the stack toward network clients and servers.  Pretty impressive for a company who used to be known for PC-hosted COBOL compilers.

Micro Focus acquired Attachmate WRQ who comprised Attachmate who had previously acquired The Wollongong Group (TCP/IP stacks and applications for MS-DOS/Windows PCs, among other things) and WRQ who had been in the terminal emulation business since the 1980s (first product PC2622 emulated an HP 2622 terminal).  Micro Focus also had previously acquired NetManage (TCP/IP stacks and applications for Windows PCs) who had previously acquired Wall Data (5250 emulator, maybe 3270 too) and FTP Software (TCP/IP stacks and applications for MS-DOS/Windows PCs).  I?m thinking Novell who acquired Excelan (TCP/IP coprocessor hardware/software) is also somewhere in there via Attachmate WRQ.

I mean, really, who?s left?  Distinct?  (Though they seemed aimed more at protocol libraries licensable to developers, now they seem to be in the TN3270/TN5250/VT420 for Windows business.)  Beame & Whiteside got et by Hummingbird who I guess are now somewhere in OpenText.

-Frank McConnell




From alan at alanlee.org  Mon Nov 18 21:35:14 2019
From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 22:35:14 -0500
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <0bb4181a-1ee1-8bed-7ec0-2d8ef92462b2@bitsavers.org>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <0bb4181a-1ee1-8bed-7ec0-2d8ef92462b2@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <e926b357ced4688cd9aa01e92cc0a852@alanlee.org>


On 2019-11-18 11:54, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> 
> another hacky way to to this would be a twinax to multi-port serial 
> terminal
> converter, then rs-232 to telnet
> 
> I did say it was a hack :-)

Yes, that hack did occur to me as well.  But finding suitable working 
3708s or equivalents has been challenging.

-Alan

From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Nov 18 21:45:18 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 19:45:18 -0800
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <349539961.713497.1574127411732@email.ionos.com>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
 <f75983da-a9db-8bb3-8099-3d8649a3e78a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <a1510a37-c9ae-3785-9d5f-52ba0fd35941@bitsavers.org>
 <161501d59e4f$faeb5770$f0c20650$@gmail.com>
 <e6e35656-b0b3-0e80-aa42-92c5c69df59d@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimkHZOTwcri92EmX2+1Dra+RuhT6gKdGCBwP4p0cZAkufg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8e386ad6-f525-f0cd-98cb-074cbcd1ae91@bitsavers.org>
 <78780651-e9a6-26f9-5c07-7e8967b3cbe4@alembic.crystel.com>
 <988f5913-4e63-759d-1171-1c4d60c83323@bitsavers.org>
 <42568d42-dc43-7706-67b4-fdbc16d70c4f@bitsavers.org>
 <349539961.713497.1574127411732@email.ionos.com>
Message-ID: <c9f3a330-6433-791f-cb8c-65ae07cb33ec@sydex.com>

On 11/18/19 5:36 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote:

> I find it interesting that one of the few remaining mainframe third parties is called Micro Focus

Is that the same Micro Focus with the x86 COBOL?

--Chuck


From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net  Mon Nov 18 11:10:18 2019
From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 11:10:18 -0600
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
In-Reply-To: <825c8a67-ae5c-f93b-9b73-b993787db229@t-online.de>
References: <825c8a67-ae5c-f93b-9b73-b993787db229@t-online.de>
Message-ID: <4A3363C9-6B82-4C0C-8F81-DEDC601BCD05@lunar-tokyo.net>

> On Nov 17, 2019, at 7:59 AM, J?rg Hoppe via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Yes, can (get a kit with SMT work done)

OK, that?s the answer I needed; If I want to put one of these in a KS10, can the parity lines be hacked from the software (the KS10 uses them as two extra data bits) or are they hard-wired to parity?


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Tue Nov 19 03:36:31 2019
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 09:36:31 -0000
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <c9f3a330-6433-791f-cb8c-65ae07cb33ec@sydex.com>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
 <f75983da-a9db-8bb3-8099-3d8649a3e78a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <a1510a37-c9ae-3785-9d5f-52ba0fd35941@bitsavers.org>
 <161501d59e4f$faeb5770$f0c20650$@gmail.com>
 <e6e35656-b0b3-0e80-aa42-92c5c69df59d@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimkHZOTwcri92EmX2+1Dra+RuhT6gKdGCBwP4p0cZAkufg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8e386ad6-f525-f0cd-98cb-074cbcd1ae91@bitsavers.org>
 <78780651-e9a6-26f9-5c07-7e8967b3cbe4@alembic.crystel.com>
 <988f5913-4e63-759d-1171-1c4d60c83323@bitsavers.org>
 <42568d42-dc43-7706-67b4-fdbc16d70c4f@bitsavers.org>
 <349539961.713497.1574127411732@email.ionos.com>
 <c9f3a330-6433-791f-cb8c-65ae07cb33ec@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <1a7a01d59ebc$d3ebbda0$7bc338e0$@gmail.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis via
> cctalk
> Sent: 19 November 2019 03:45
> To: Will Cooke via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: 3270 controller simulation
> 
> On 11/18/19 5:36 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote:
> 
> > I find it interesting that one of the few remaining mainframe third parties is
> called Micro Focus
> 
> Is that the same Micro Focus with the x86 COBOL?
> 
> --Chuck

I don't think its really "the same" anymore since it took on much of HPEs software. But essentially the great grandchild of the business which I believe started Don Higgins 370 emulator. 

https://www.mail-archive.com/ibm-main at listserv.ua.edu/msg52038.html

I would like be able to use some of the sync comms stuff, but I don't have either the hardware or the software. I have used TN3270 to go from my VAX to my P390 but that?s about it.
Neither my P390 or my VAXen have sync cards, nor I think does my CISCO router. I think I could use a 3174 as a gateway but that?s a whole new can of worms...

Dave



From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Tue Nov 19 04:07:07 2019
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 02:07:07 -0800
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <1a7a01d59ebc$d3ebbda0$7bc338e0$@gmail.com>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
 <f75983da-a9db-8bb3-8099-3d8649a3e78a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <a1510a37-c9ae-3785-9d5f-52ba0fd35941@bitsavers.org>
 <161501d59e4f$faeb5770$f0c20650$@gmail.com>
 <e6e35656-b0b3-0e80-aa42-92c5c69df59d@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimkHZOTwcri92EmX2+1Dra+RuhT6gKdGCBwP4p0cZAkufg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8e386ad6-f525-f0cd-98cb-074cbcd1ae91@bitsavers.org>
 <78780651-e9a6-26f9-5c07-7e8967b3cbe4@alembic.crystel.com>
 <988f5913-4e63-759d-1171-1c4d60c83323@bitsavers.org>
 <42568d42-dc43-7706-67b4-fdbc16d70c4f@bitsavers.org>
 <349539961.713497.1574127411732@email.ionos.com>
 <c9f3a330-6433-791f-cb8c-65ae07cb33ec@sydex.com>
 <1a7a01d59ebc$d3ebbda0$7bc338e0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0337e8ed-022b-7997-685b-65a008c7f685@jwsss.com>



On 11/19/2019 1:36 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis via
>> cctalk
>> Sent: 19 November 2019 03:45
>> To: Will Cooke via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>> Subject: Re: 3270 controller simulation
>>
>> On 11/18/19 5:36 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote:
>>
>>> I find it interesting that one of the few remaining mainframe third parties is
>> called Micro Focus
>>
>> Is that the same Micro Focus with the x86 COBOL?
>>
>> --Chuck
> I don't think its really "the same" anymore since it took on much of HPEs software. But essentially the great grandchild of the business which I believe started Don Higgins 370 emulator.
>
> https://www.mail-archive.com/ibm-main at listserv.ua.edu/msg52038.html
I think the Cobol Compiler came from the company we contracted with to 
do languages for us @Microdata.? They were
called CSPI, something like California Software Products, Inc., in 
Orange County, CA.

We payed them about 40,000 apiece for a product called Microdata Express 
to write support compilers for Cobol
and Fortran.? Intended to be competitive with the Dec PDP11, and 
actually was faster.? We wrote our own OS, I
was an architect with another guy of a lot of the OS.

Anyway they threw in a microcode compiler / assembler for the Microdata 
3200, and also did a rework of the
EPL system language tool which the system was coded in.? It originally 
was derived from McKeeman's XPL project.

He and his group were at UCLA, and contracted on the OS. (digressing a bit).

I heard that the 370 emulator company merged with, or was bought up by 
the compiler operation, and the
result became MicroFocus.? The first compiler I think ran on the PC or 
the AT, and with the addition of the 370
emulator, it became a tool to migrate things off the mainframe, or allow 
support of distributed parts of
application systems on PCs.? Or that was what they wanted it to be.

thanks
Jim
> I would like be able to use some of the sync comms stuff, but I don't have either the hardware or the software. I have used TN3270 to go from my VAX to my P390 but that?s about it.
> Neither my P390 or my VAXen have sync cards, nor I think does my CISCO router. I think I could use a 3174 as a gateway but that?s a whole new can of worms...
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>


From holm at freibergnet.de  Tue Nov 19 04:10:42 2019
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 11:10:42 +0100
Subject: Conitec GRIP and GRIP-Color
Message-ID: <20191119101042.GA7372@beast.freibergnet.de>

Hi all,

Some time ago I've got from a friend a defective ECB Bus Card named
GRIP-4, that's a ancient Z80 based graphic display controller Card
using the MC6845/HD6345 CRT Controller made by the (still existing)
german Company Conitec in the 80s.
Additional I've got an empty extension PCB called Grip-Color..the for
color needed Memory, shift and palette registers.

I've phoned the CEO from Conitec in the meantime and he will send the
paperwork regarding the GRIP-4 that he still could find to me for
scanning, unfortunately he couldn't find anything for the Grip-Color card.

I have a running ECB bus system with an REH-CPU280, an Z280 based System
that could run CP/M-3 and UZI280, has an FDC on board and an IDE Interface
with an 128MB Flash disk, I whish to extend that with the GRIP Cards..

Is here someone that could please provide some Information related to the
Grip-Color Card? I think I've repaired the GRIP-4 in the meantime (still
have to connect an CRT, just replaced the FBT [different Model and
Make] in the Monitor that I want to connect), but the oscillograms are
looking good.
I whish complete the Grip-Color card, any helpful information is welcome,
even a picture where I can see which ICs are soldered in.

https://www.z80cpu.eu/mirrors/oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/rechner/conitec/werbung/conitec_09.gif

Thanks in Advance,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From alan at alanlee.org  Tue Nov 19 04:51:25 2019
From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 05:51:25 -0500
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <42568d42-dc43-7706-67b4-fdbc16d70c4f@bitsavers.org>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
 <f75983da-a9db-8bb3-8099-3d8649a3e78a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <a1510a37-c9ae-3785-9d5f-52ba0fd35941@bitsavers.org>
 <161501d59e4f$faeb5770$f0c20650$@gmail.com>
 <e6e35656-b0b3-0e80-aa42-92c5c69df59d@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimkHZOTwcri92EmX2+1Dra+RuhT6gKdGCBwP4p0cZAkufg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8e386ad6-f525-f0cd-98cb-074cbcd1ae91@bitsavers.org>
 <78780651-e9a6-26f9-5c07-7e8967b3cbe4@alembic.crystel.com>
 <988f5913-4e63-759d-1171-1c4d60c83323@bitsavers.org>
 <42568d42-dc43-7706-67b4-fdbc16d70c4f@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <5bfb72a348cbbdd1565299990b962915@alanlee.org>

On 2019-11-18 19:42, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:

> I find it interesting that the field of comms interoperability with
> IBM mainframes was huge up until TCP/IP
> took over, and all traces of the software implementations have
> disappeared or were consolidated into a couple
> like Micro Focus.

In attempting to bridge the twinax world to something else, I guess I 
was naive coming from the ASCII/UNIX realm thinking 'how hard could it 
be?'

The electrical-wire and line framing and coding of the TwinAx data cable 
is pretty straight forward.  1 MSps differential Manchester coding with 
a fixed frame sync pattern.  Then up to 256 bytes of payload per frame 
to 7 logical addresses.  I was under a simplified-thinking impression 
the 5250'ish terminal and printer data protocols would live directly on 
top of that.  Now it seems from my research, it's SNA/LU7 that sits 
on-top of TwinAx for early S/3x, correct?  Then a 5250 data stream?  
Then 5250 display station specific commands?

Are there any ideal resources I should be looking at?  I've browsed 
through the GC30-3073-1 SNA Technical Overview but it doesn't cover 
differences in LU types, for example...  No wonder Big Blue was always 
so expensive.

-Alan

From lproven at gmail.com  Tue Nov 19 05:49:03 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 12:49:03 +0100
Subject: Question about "Distributed" in the DFT name.
In-Reply-To: <18b5b343-e228-131d-ed02-ca6246b85150@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <1dda1641-b1f5-58f8-1c37-a070b9e05534@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <91061010-5b2d-a4c9-5048-f8317be8c82d@bitsavers.org>
 <40556bea-687f-7b37-3c7b-3cdd7527a4ec@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <F33B50A8-603C-4A86-B388-DF4A27BD1721@comcast.net>
 <18b5b343-e228-131d-ed02-ca6246b85150@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGaDKWcr7z+oZErpfj-tQ6TC5gBB2RdyaDNHv+PgWOUdg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 18 Nov 2019 at 19:24, Grant Taylor via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> On 11/18/19 11:10 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
>
> > For example, I'm not sure anyone would call VMS an open system, yet
> > clearly it's distributed (VAXcluster).
>
> What is "open" in this context?  Is it open source?  Is it open
> communications protocols?  (As in OSI / POSIX.)  Is it something else?

It was a FAQ once.

http://www.rcnp.osaka-u.ac.jp/Divisions/CN/computer/vms/faq/vms_faq_0009.txt

https://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia/term/48503/openvms

"VAX/VMS" was renamed "VAX VMS" and then was renamed OpenVMS when the
Alpha version came out and it wasn't a VAX-specific product any more.

_Ostensibly_ the reason was that this release had POSIX API
compliance, and a bunch of POSIX tools, optionally available free of
charge -- I think that before that, this cost extra.

Really, I cynically suspect it's because just the 3 letters wasn't
enough to trademark. After all VAX is probably better known as a brand
of vacuum cleaner, outside of old-timer IT circles.

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From lproven at gmail.com  Tue Nov 19 05:56:09 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 12:56:09 +0100
Subject: message from andrew (was 3270 controller simulation)
In-Reply-To: <45efe6d4-de88-1ff9-424f-06dedcce3b24@bitsavers.org>
References: <CAGc_3RywdTXTC3F_TeSkAujwzCmTtDdooDi_C15s1UvmigWbhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <45efe6d4-de88-1ff9-424f-06dedcce3b24@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCHmX8DYejeRnXLZ3L=d+mmCDZWNZBRCyAOWf_5wZVUx_w@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 at 02:46, Al Kossow via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Please feel free to copy the above to the mailing list - I definitely
> want to join (do you know if it is possible to join with a GMail
> account, the last I heard was I was waiting to be approved)

It absolutely is -- that's how I use it myself. With very slight
effort Gmail also does things like plain-text and bottom-posting just
fine, as this message I hope demonstrates.

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From j_hoppe at t-online.de  Tue Nov 19 05:41:25 2019
From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 12:41:25 +0100
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
Message-ID: <ce500f82-685e-f490-3dbb-5a7eff185f3b@t-online.de>

Daniel,

 >>
 >> Yes, can (get a kit with SMT work done)
 >
 > OK, that?s the answer I needed;
 > If I want to put one of these in a KS10, can the parity lines be 
hacked from the software
 > (the KS10 uses them as two extra data bits) or are they hard-wired to 
parity?

Several people asked to make UniBone PDP-10able, it should be not problem.

UNIBUS PA,PB are (like all other signals) just pins on a GPIO 
multiplier, no interpretation is done in hardware.

On software side the PRU must sample 18bit instead of 16bit for DATA, 
then lots of "uint16_t" must be changed to "uint32_t" in the whole 
software stack.

Not clear what to do with existing device emulators: did DEC construct 
18bit mutants for a few PDP-11 peripherals to run them in KS10?

UNIBUS on a PDP-10 makes only sense to me if the big pool of PDP-11 
peripherals can be used directly.

regards,

Joerg


From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Tue Nov 19 07:39:22 2019
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 08:39:22 -0500
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
In-Reply-To: <4A3363C9-6B82-4C0C-8F81-DEDC601BCD05@lunar-tokyo.net>
References: <825c8a67-ae5c-f93b-9b73-b993787db229@t-online.de>
 <4A3363C9-6B82-4C0C-8F81-DEDC601BCD05@lunar-tokyo.net>
Message-ID: <63727e39-257d-9334-a775-607ea78543f4@alembic.crystel.com>

Ah. Another solution to the fabled "MASSBUS" to anything adapter? 
Putting it in at the RH11-C level would remove a fair bit of complexity, 
then you could simply emulate all the Massbuss insanity through the 
relatively simple registers that an RH11 uses....

I wouldn't mind having eight RP06's on a card inside my 2020. Then it 
could truly be called a KS (as in Kloset)10......

C

> OK, that?s the answer I needed; If I want to put one of these in a KS10, can the parity lines be hacked from the software (the KS10 uses them as two extra data bits) or are they hard-wired to parity?
> 

From cube1 at charter.net  Tue Nov 19 09:19:59 2019
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 09:19:59 -0600
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <42568d42-dc43-7706-67b4-fdbc16d70c4f@bitsavers.org>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
 <f75983da-a9db-8bb3-8099-3d8649a3e78a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <a1510a37-c9ae-3785-9d5f-52ba0fd35941@bitsavers.org>
 <161501d59e4f$faeb5770$f0c20650$@gmail.com>
 <e6e35656-b0b3-0e80-aa42-92c5c69df59d@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimkHZOTwcri92EmX2+1Dra+RuhT6gKdGCBwP4p0cZAkufg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8e386ad6-f525-f0cd-98cb-074cbcd1ae91@bitsavers.org>
 <78780651-e9a6-26f9-5c07-7e8967b3cbe4@alembic.crystel.com>
 <988f5913-4e63-759d-1171-1c4d60c83323@bitsavers.org>
 <42568d42-dc43-7706-67b4-fdbc16d70c4f@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <89353e2f-1420-e238-a1a1-e31730721d27@charter.net>

On 11/18/2019 6:42 PM, Al Kossow via cctech wrote:

> 
> I find it interesting that the field of comms interoperability with IBM mainframes was huge up until TCP/IP
> took over, and all traces of the software implementations have disappeared or were consolidated into a couple
> like Micro Focus.
> 
> 

At first other TCP implementations were superior to IBMs.  We did a bid
back in the day (don't remember the exact year).  Jupiter (a division of
Intel by then) won it with their channel attached multi-bus based
implementation.  It had tn3270 access from our Unix workstations and VAXen.

Before that (in 1986) we also had an Interlink 3711 channel attached
DECnet interface that ran on RSX-11 so that our VAXen could communicate
with our mainframes.  I don't recall it doing 3270 access from the
VAXen, but I think we could log on to the VAXen from our 3270 in
line-by-line mode.

JRJ

From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net  Tue Nov 19 10:05:52 2019
From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 10:05:52 -0600
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
In-Reply-To: <ce500f82-685e-f490-3dbb-5a7eff185f3b@t-online.de>
References: <ce500f82-685e-f490-3dbb-5a7eff185f3b@t-online.de>
Message-ID: <8D7681BF-FF4F-4F7B-8949-2E595E312E8A@lunar-tokyo.net>



> On Nov 19, 2019, at 5:41 AM, J?rg Hoppe via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Several people asked to make UniBone PDP-10able, it should be not problem.
> 
> UNIBUS PA,PB are (like all other signals) just pins on a GPIO multiplier, no interpretation is done in hardware.
> 
> On software side the PRU must sample 18bit instead of 16bit for DATA, then lots of "uint16_t" must be changed to "uint32_t" in the whole software stack.
> 
> Not clear what to do with existing device emulators: did DEC construct 18bit mutants for a few PDP-11 peripherals to run them in KS10?

As far as I know, only the (disk) RH11-C uses the extra two bits; The tape RH11 and all other options are unmodified PDP-11 stuff.

In my case, I would need to emulate an RH11-C, a Chaosnet, and an IMP interface if possible.
Emulating DZ11s as TCP targets as well would be nice, but I have physical DZ11s if there?s not enough capacity left.


From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue Nov 19 10:39:51 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 08:39:51 -0800
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <5bfb72a348cbbdd1565299990b962915@alanlee.org>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
 <f75983da-a9db-8bb3-8099-3d8649a3e78a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <a1510a37-c9ae-3785-9d5f-52ba0fd35941@bitsavers.org>
 <161501d59e4f$faeb5770$f0c20650$@gmail.com>
 <e6e35656-b0b3-0e80-aa42-92c5c69df59d@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimkHZOTwcri92EmX2+1Dra+RuhT6gKdGCBwP4p0cZAkufg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8e386ad6-f525-f0cd-98cb-074cbcd1ae91@bitsavers.org>
 <78780651-e9a6-26f9-5c07-7e8967b3cbe4@alembic.crystel.com>
 <988f5913-4e63-759d-1171-1c4d60c83323@bitsavers.org>
 <42568d42-dc43-7706-67b4-fdbc16d70c4f@bitsavers.org>
 <5bfb72a348cbbdd1565299990b962915@alanlee.org>
Message-ID: <2a31e81b-a8c3-8f18-e1e7-61596eab5390@bitsavers.org>



On 11/19/19 2:51 AM, alan--- via cctalk wrote:

> Are there any ideal resources I should be looking at?? I've browsed through the GC30-3073-1 SNA Technical Overview but
> it doesn't cover differences in LU types

I put up a few more documents over the last few weeks, some would work well for curing insomnia



From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Nov 19 10:41:27 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 08:41:27 -0800
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <1a7a01d59ebc$d3ebbda0$7bc338e0$@gmail.com>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
 <f75983da-a9db-8bb3-8099-3d8649a3e78a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <a1510a37-c9ae-3785-9d5f-52ba0fd35941@bitsavers.org>
 <161501d59e4f$faeb5770$f0c20650$@gmail.com>
 <e6e35656-b0b3-0e80-aa42-92c5c69df59d@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimkHZOTwcri92EmX2+1Dra+RuhT6gKdGCBwP4p0cZAkufg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8e386ad6-f525-f0cd-98cb-074cbcd1ae91@bitsavers.org>
 <78780651-e9a6-26f9-5c07-7e8967b3cbe4@alembic.crystel.com>
 <988f5913-4e63-759d-1171-1c4d60c83323@bitsavers.org>
 <42568d42-dc43-7706-67b4-fdbc16d70c4f@bitsavers.org>
 <349539961.713497.1574127411732@email.ionos.com>
 <c9f3a330-6433-791f-cb8c-65ae07cb33ec@sydex.com>
 <1a7a01d59ebc$d3ebbda0$7bc338e0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fb3fddb7-d708-0675-c508-482d95ceb211@sydex.com>

On 11/19/19 1:36 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote:

> I don't think its really "the same" anymore since it took on much of HPEs software. But essentially the great grandchild of the business which I believe started Don Higgins 370 emulator. 
> 
> https://www.mail-archive.com/ibm-main at listserv.ua.edu/msg52038.html

Couple of their folks used to belong to the same bicycling club that I
was a member of.  Sometime in the 1980s, I believe.  One of them gave me
a copy of their COBOL.

--Chuck


From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue Nov 19 10:43:31 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 08:43:31 -0800
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <E6A961A0-FE35-41BE-A554-E80B0394A076@reanimators.org>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
 <f75983da-a9db-8bb3-8099-3d8649a3e78a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <a1510a37-c9ae-3785-9d5f-52ba0fd35941@bitsavers.org>
 <161501d59e4f$faeb5770$f0c20650$@gmail.com>
 <e6e35656-b0b3-0e80-aa42-92c5c69df59d@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimkHZOTwcri92EmX2+1Dra+RuhT6gKdGCBwP4p0cZAkufg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8e386ad6-f525-f0cd-98cb-074cbcd1ae91@bitsavers.org>
 <78780651-e9a6-26f9-5c07-7e8967b3cbe4@alembic.crystel.com>
 <988f5913-4e63-759d-1171-1c4d60c83323@bitsavers.org>
 <42568d42-dc43-7706-67b4-fdbc16d70c4f@bitsavers.org>
 <E6A961A0-FE35-41BE-A554-E80B0394A076@reanimators.org>
Message-ID: <478186f3-ba04-e249-6558-de49b6803083@bitsavers.org>



On 11/18/19 7:34 PM, Frank McConnell wrote:
> Wall Data (5250 emulator, maybe 3270 too)

yes, both,  'Rumba' which supported several different boards/drivers

they bought the Apple Nubus coax/twinax board product line and snaPS software
product line as well (I've been trying to find the hardware, I found the
software on eBay)




From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue Nov 19 10:48:04 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 08:48:04 -0800
Subject: 3270 controller simulation
In-Reply-To: <478186f3-ba04-e249-6558-de49b6803083@bitsavers.org>
References: <361aac3c-33ad-9b63-0821-1dfc320078a7@bitsavers.org>
 <426d9b19fd21506d1523a824fca5ba65@alanlee.org>
 <92f0ffe4-b76d-3456-08d1-0c8183ee5623@bitsavers.org>
 <0f2901d59df6$6a15d8f0$3e418ad0$@gmail.com>
 <4634a143-677d-0728-9ea3-561b3f25dceb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0cb77d7a-6276-a176-cb80-74d62807e5e3@bitsavers.org>
 <f75983da-a9db-8bb3-8099-3d8649a3e78a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <a1510a37-c9ae-3785-9d5f-52ba0fd35941@bitsavers.org>
 <161501d59e4f$faeb5770$f0c20650$@gmail.com>
 <e6e35656-b0b3-0e80-aa42-92c5c69df59d@sydex.com>
 <CAALmimkHZOTwcri92EmX2+1Dra+RuhT6gKdGCBwP4p0cZAkufg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8e386ad6-f525-f0cd-98cb-074cbcd1ae91@bitsavers.org>
 <78780651-e9a6-26f9-5c07-7e8967b3cbe4@alembic.crystel.com>
 <988f5913-4e63-759d-1171-1c4d60c83323@bitsavers.org>
 <42568d42-dc43-7706-67b4-fdbc16d70c4f@bitsavers.org>
 <E6A961A0-FE35-41BE-A554-E80B0394A076@reanimators.org>
 <478186f3-ba04-e249-6558-de49b6803083@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <474bfd74-0ab2-745f-fb86-1040c3b8b710@bitsavers.org>



On 11/19/19 8:43 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
> On 11/18/19 7:34 PM, Frank McConnell wrote:
>> Wall Data (5250 emulator, maybe 3270 too)
> 
> yes, both,  'Rumba' which supported several different boards/drivers

I've also been chasing down the history of the ASICs used on 'Irma' boards
and you can see the chain of acquistions. SMC and UMC were even in the
Irma ASIC business but it's unclear if they did their own firmware or copied
someone elses. I need to sit down with my notes since it gets really
confusing. National, for example, built a coprocessor ASIC (DP8344) but
sold a boxed PC card product with an SMC part on it.




From tsraguso at gmail.com  Tue Nov 19 12:53:58 2019
From: tsraguso at gmail.com (Thomas Raguso)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 12:53:58 -0600
Subject: Houston Computer Museum Warehouse Liquidation
Message-ID: <CAAQeJU5taR5S+4jQ3s1i6YiD+S5UzF0UUnYfdm_nXjKgtiaHdA@mail.gmail.com>

I have seen multiple posts over time speculating about flooding in the
warehouse. I would like to assure everyone that the warehouse has never
flooded, and that any posts to the contrary are inaccurate or greatly
exaggerated.

I have cleared a significant area inside the warehouse and have not seen
any indications at all of floodwaters entering the building. Additionally,
the landlord has also confirmed that the building has never flooded.

The only moisture-related damage that has occurred at all happened to paper
articles in direct contact with the cement floor (The floor is bare cement,
and gets moist during heavy rains). Such items have all been discarded. The
computers, even those that touched the ground, are undamaged. If I were to
find a computer with water damage, it would be clearly labeled as such when
being sold.

If you have any questions, please email me directly, and I will gladly
answer them to the best of my knowledge.

Thomas Raguso

From athornton at gmail.com  Tue Nov 19 13:05:41 2019
From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 12:05:41 -0700
Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 62, Issue 19
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1574186400.92356.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1574186400.92356.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CAP2nic1SzjR7DkLqTjJr6BrJ1=OEc0DdQ=9sZczF1vF4kM3b3Q@mail.gmail.com>

I might have had something to do with

https://www.sinenomine.net/products/vm/njeip

And as far as I remember, at least some of it was BSD licensed, so if
that's what floats your boat...knock yerself out.

From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Nov 19 13:40:54 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 11:40:54 -0800
Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 62, Issue 19
In-Reply-To: <CAP2nic1SzjR7DkLqTjJr6BrJ1=OEc0DdQ=9sZczF1vF4kM3b3Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1574186400.92356.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <CAP2nic1SzjR7DkLqTjJr6BrJ1=OEc0DdQ=9sZczF1vF4kM3b3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9b4bc8ff-4ec3-4e17-9f49-d30089d0863e@sydex.com>

On 11/19/19 11:05 AM, Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote:
> I might have had something to do with
> 
> https://www.sinenomine.net/products/vm/njeip
> 
> And as far as I remember, at least some of it was BSD licensed, so if
> that's what floats your boat...knock yerself out.

So where were you guys 35 years ago? :)

--Chuck

From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net  Tue Nov 19 10:07:23 2019
From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 10:07:23 -0600
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
In-Reply-To: <63727e39-257d-9334-a775-607ea78543f4@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <825c8a67-ae5c-f93b-9b73-b993787db229@t-online.de>
 <4A3363C9-6B82-4C0C-8F81-DEDC601BCD05@lunar-tokyo.net>
 <63727e39-257d-9334-a775-607ea78543f4@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <1A4F53CD-CBE8-465D-A38C-5C44C804F640@lunar-tokyo.net>

> On Nov 19, 2019, at 7:39 AM, Chris Zach via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Ah. Another solution to the fabled "MASSBUS" to anything adapter? Putting it in at the RH11-C level would remove a fair bit of complexity, then you could simply emulate all the Massbuss insanity through the relatively simple registers that an RH11 uses....

That?s the plan; That and getting a Chaosnet so I can connect my CADR to my KS10 when I get them both working at the same time.


From rescue at hawkmountain.net  Tue Nov 19 12:52:31 2019
From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (rescue)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 13:52:31 -0500
Subject: TRS-80 Model III and IV parts needed (keycaps, keyboard switch,
 ribbon cable, floppy drive parts)
In-Reply-To: <022fecb4d63b769796f09f9e85cde74b@localhost>
References: <022fecb4d63b769796f09f9e85cde74b@localhost>
Message-ID: <64fb570cb20a738659b426c552b4be74@localhost>

On 2019-11-05 14:00, rescue wrote:
> So, on this Model III I'm working on the following keycaps are 
> missing:
>
> 1/! key
> right shift key

Still looking for these or a donor model I, III, or IV keyboard.

>
> Looks like keycaps from a Model III, and possibly a model I would
> work. Probably a Model IV keycap for 1/! would work, but I think the
> right shift key would be different between a Model III and Model IV.
>
> I also need one of the ALPS switches as the '+' part of the stem is
> broken off.

still looking here too.

>
> In addition, on the drive (Texas Peripherals), there is a plastic
> component that screws onto the aluminum arm with the diskette
> retaining hub with 2 screws.... it then accepts two plastic pins that
> connect this piece to the drive door.  I am missing on of the plastic
> pins and the plastic piece is cracking.
> Anyone have any of these parts kicking around.

I managed to effect repairs using superglue, baking soda, and a couple 
of small steel pins that I think were pulled from a dead hard drive at 
some point
(turned out to be the perfect diameter, though a bit shorter than the 
factory plastic pins).

The superglue/baking soda technique is pretty amazing.

>
> On a Model III upgraded to a Model IV I have, the ribbon cable to the
> serial/com board has 'self destructed' as the glue failed, so once
> removed it could not be reconnected.  Interestingly the cable for the
> floppy controller did not deteriorate ?????

Still looking for one of these flexible ribbon cables for a Model IV (I 
presume Model III is the same too).

>
> Sadly on the upgraded Model III someone converted it to 3 drives,
> using an original full height drive for the 1st drive (at the 
> bottom),
> and put 2 HH drives in the top bay.  To make room for the eject
> control on the top drive, the upper case has been notched.  It would
> be nice to find an upper case for a Model III and do away with that
> notch.... or alternately an empty Model IV case (top and bottom).

Woud still like to fine either:

1. a Model IV case top and bottom or
2. a Model III top case

In the even of #2, it would be nice to find a Model IV case badge to 
replace the Model III badge.... but that would just be icing on the 
cake.

>
> Thanks to anyone with any TRS-80 'parts vault' that may have these
> parts available....  It has been a long time since I have touched a
> Model I/III (last time was probably 1983 :-) ).  Looking forward to
> getting the 3 systems I have up and running (Model I with Expansion,
> Model III, and a Model III upgraded to a Model IV).
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> -- Curt

Thanks again if anyone has any source or lead on any of the above 
TRS-80 parts,

-- Curt



From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Tue Nov 19 17:26:17 2019
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 18:26:17 -0500
Subject: Houston Computer Museum Warehouse Liquidation
In-Reply-To: <CAAQeJU5taR5S+4jQ3s1i6YiD+S5UzF0UUnYfdm_nXjKgtiaHdA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAQeJU5taR5S+4jQ3s1i6YiD+S5UzF0UUnYfdm_nXjKgtiaHdA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+ddD5GNVa4axF4Z4NM=L4n49HGOc18eADpey6Rgyx2aG-g@mail.gmail.com>

> I have seen multiple posts over time speculating about flooding in the
> warehouse. I would like to assure everyone that the warehouse has never
> flooded, and that any posts to the contrary are inaccurate or greatly
> exaggerated.

The very best way to convince people of the lack of water damage to
the warehouse is simply to take a bunch of pictures of the warehouse
and post them. Good pictures that show the equipment unobscured,
inside and out. Water damage, or the lack of it, will become very
apparent.

--
Will

From kylevowen at gmail.com  Tue Nov 19 17:48:33 2019
From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 17:48:33 -0600
Subject: Houston Computer Museum Warehouse Liquidation
In-Reply-To: <CANij+ddD5GNVa4axF4Z4NM=L4n49HGOc18eADpey6Rgyx2aG-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAQeJU5taR5S+4jQ3s1i6YiD+S5UzF0UUnYfdm_nXjKgtiaHdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+ddD5GNVa4axF4Z4NM=L4n49HGOc18eADpey6Rgyx2aG-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEYUycJGC859t1AdL7G9-C=kmaRGUCKFARPi8tXx6mtVyDbw@mail.gmail.com>

Have any list members seen the place in person?

Have any list members successfully bought anything yet?

I have tried reaching Thomas by email and phone, to no avail. Just
wondering if others have had similar challenges.

Thanks,

Kyle

From mooreericnyc at gmail.com  Tue Nov 19 17:53:35 2019
From: mooreericnyc at gmail.com (Eric Moore)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 17:53:35 -0600
Subject: Houston Computer Museum Warehouse Liquidation
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEYUycJGC859t1AdL7G9-C=kmaRGUCKFARPi8tXx6mtVyDbw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAQeJU5taR5S+4jQ3s1i6YiD+S5UzF0UUnYfdm_nXjKgtiaHdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+ddD5GNVa4axF4Z4NM=L4n49HGOc18eADpey6Rgyx2aG-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtEYUycJGC859t1AdL7G9-C=kmaRGUCKFARPi8tXx6mtVyDbw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAE1er57+9QEeE0EeCcB6bFCKJNm0SP8SYycPgEPybZE9dhYTZA@mail.gmail.com>

I have bought multiple items from Thomas and seen the warehouse in person
repeatedly.

On Tue, Nov 19, 2019, 17:48 Kyle Owen via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> Have any list members seen the place in person?
>
> Have any list members successfully bought anything yet?
>
> I have tried reaching Thomas by email and phone, to no avail. Just
> wondering if others have had similar challenges.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kyle
>

From mmcgraw74 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 19 18:24:28 2019
From: mmcgraw74 at gmail.com (Monty McGraw)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 18:24:28 -0600
Subject: Houston Computer Museum Warehouse Liquidation
In-Reply-To: <CAE1er57+9QEeE0EeCcB6bFCKJNm0SP8SYycPgEPybZE9dhYTZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAQeJU5taR5S+4jQ3s1i6YiD+S5UzF0UUnYfdm_nXjKgtiaHdA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+ddD5GNVa4axF4Z4NM=L4n49HGOc18eADpey6Rgyx2aG-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKtEYUycJGC859t1AdL7G9-C=kmaRGUCKFARPi8tXx6mtVyDbw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE1er57+9QEeE0EeCcB6bFCKJNm0SP8SYycPgEPybZE9dhYTZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABfggkCRGGcKpHDFvyu-0jnhc93Bp-CokpEyRNhEqTPuuc6HwA@mail.gmail.com>

I have been to the warehouse once - and purchased a Commodore C64, 1541
Hard Disk, 1802 Color Monitor, a NOS sealed box of Verbatim 5 1/4" floppy
disks, and a Tektronix 603 Storage Monitor.
All of them are working well.

Thomas responded to my Messenger PM with an appointment time.

Monty

On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 5:53 PM Eric Moore via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> I have bought multiple items from Thomas and seen the warehouse in person
> repeatedly.
>
> On Tue, Nov 19, 2019, 17:48 Kyle Owen via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
> > Have any list members seen the place in person?
> >
> > Have any list members successfully bought anything yet?
> >
> > I have tried reaching Thomas by email and phone, to no avail. Just
> > wondering if others have had similar challenges.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Kyle
> >
>

From derschjo at gmail.com  Tue Nov 19 18:53:02 2019
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 16:53:02 -0800
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
In-Reply-To: <1A4F53CD-CBE8-465D-A38C-5C44C804F640@lunar-tokyo.net>
References: <825c8a67-ae5c-f93b-9b73-b993787db229@t-online.de>
 <4A3363C9-6B82-4C0C-8F81-DEDC601BCD05@lunar-tokyo.net>
 <63727e39-257d-9334-a775-607ea78543f4@alembic.crystel.com>
 <1A4F53CD-CBE8-465D-A38C-5C44C804F640@lunar-tokyo.net>
Message-ID: <CADBZjLbM4Uj3+qn1par7M9ZFi4kFQz2EYinu2RTsPxBheAYUwg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 2:26 PM Daniel Seagraves via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> > On Nov 19, 2019, at 7:39 AM, Chris Zach via cctech <
> cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > Ah. Another solution to the fabled "MASSBUS" to anything adapter?
> Putting it in at the RH11-C level would remove a fair bit of complexity,
> then you could simply emulate all the Massbuss insanity through the
> relatively simple registers that an RH11 uses....
>
> That?s the plan; That and getting a Chaosnet so I can connect my CADR to
> my KS10 when I get them both working at the same time.
>

I had plans to do an RH11 emulation, I can move it up in the stack (though
it won't be until early next year), and when Joerg's able to provide 18-bit
support we can start testing it on 36-bit machines...


- Josh

From derschjo at gmail.com  Tue Nov 19 18:53:02 2019
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 16:53:02 -0800
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
In-Reply-To: <1A4F53CD-CBE8-465D-A38C-5C44C804F640@lunar-tokyo.net>
References: <825c8a67-ae5c-f93b-9b73-b993787db229@t-online.de>
 <4A3363C9-6B82-4C0C-8F81-DEDC601BCD05@lunar-tokyo.net>
 <63727e39-257d-9334-a775-607ea78543f4@alembic.crystel.com>
 <1A4F53CD-CBE8-465D-A38C-5C44C804F640@lunar-tokyo.net>
Message-ID: <CADBZjLbM4Uj3+qn1par7M9ZFi4kFQz2EYinu2RTsPxBheAYUwg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 2:26 PM Daniel Seagraves via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> > On Nov 19, 2019, at 7:39 AM, Chris Zach via cctech <
> cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > Ah. Another solution to the fabled "MASSBUS" to anything adapter?
> Putting it in at the RH11-C level would remove a fair bit of complexity,
> then you could simply emulate all the Massbuss insanity through the
> relatively simple registers that an RH11 uses....
>
> That?s the plan; That and getting a Chaosnet so I can connect my CADR to
> my KS10 when I get them both working at the same time.
>

I had plans to do an RH11 emulation, I can move it up in the stack (though
it won't be until early next year), and when Joerg's able to provide 18-bit
support we can start testing it on 36-bit machines...


- Josh

From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Tue Nov 19 18:59:42 2019
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 19:59:42 -0500
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
In-Reply-To: <CADBZjLbM4Uj3+qn1par7M9ZFi4kFQz2EYinu2RTsPxBheAYUwg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <825c8a67-ae5c-f93b-9b73-b993787db229@t-online.de>
 <4A3363C9-6B82-4C0C-8F81-DEDC601BCD05@lunar-tokyo.net>
 <63727e39-257d-9334-a775-607ea78543f4@alembic.crystel.com>
 <1A4F53CD-CBE8-465D-A38C-5C44C804F640@lunar-tokyo.net>
 <CADBZjLbM4Uj3+qn1par7M9ZFi4kFQz2EYinu2RTsPxBheAYUwg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8292743a-f485-4ad1-2bce-d6e513b0ed5b@alembic.crystel.com>

Whelp, if you're planning on doing this early next year I'll start 
dragging the KS10 box out of storage and cleaning it off. If you sell 
the boards let me know so I can buy one and support your efforts.

CZ

On 11/19/2019 7:53 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
> 
> 
> On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 2:26 PM Daniel Seagraves via cctalk 
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
> 
>      > On Nov 19, 2019, at 7:39 AM, Chris Zach via cctech
>     <cctech at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctech at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
>      >
>      > Ah. Another solution to the fabled "MASSBUS" to anything adapter?
>     Putting it in at the RH11-C level would remove a fair bit of
>     complexity, then you could simply emulate all the Massbuss insanity
>     through the relatively simple registers that an RH11 uses....
> 
>     That?s the plan; That and getting a Chaosnet so I can connect my
>     CADR to my KS10 when I get them both working at the same time.
> 
> 
> I had plans to do an RH11 emulation, I can move it up in the stack 
> (though it won't be until early next year), and when Joerg's able to 
> provide 18-bit support we can start testing?it on 36-bit machines...
> 
> 
> - Josh
> 

From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Tue Nov 19 18:59:42 2019
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 19:59:42 -0500
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
In-Reply-To: <CADBZjLbM4Uj3+qn1par7M9ZFi4kFQz2EYinu2RTsPxBheAYUwg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <825c8a67-ae5c-f93b-9b73-b993787db229@t-online.de>
 <4A3363C9-6B82-4C0C-8F81-DEDC601BCD05@lunar-tokyo.net>
 <63727e39-257d-9334-a775-607ea78543f4@alembic.crystel.com>
 <1A4F53CD-CBE8-465D-A38C-5C44C804F640@lunar-tokyo.net>
 <CADBZjLbM4Uj3+qn1par7M9ZFi4kFQz2EYinu2RTsPxBheAYUwg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8292743a-f485-4ad1-2bce-d6e513b0ed5b@alembic.crystel.com>

Whelp, if you're planning on doing this early next year I'll start 
dragging the KS10 box out of storage and cleaning it off. If you sell 
the boards let me know so I can buy one and support your efforts.

CZ

On 11/19/2019 7:53 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
> 
> 
> On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 2:26 PM Daniel Seagraves via cctalk 
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
> 
>      > On Nov 19, 2019, at 7:39 AM, Chris Zach via cctech
>     <cctech at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctech at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
>      >
>      > Ah. Another solution to the fabled "MASSBUS" to anything adapter?
>     Putting it in at the RH11-C level would remove a fair bit of
>     complexity, then you could simply emulate all the Massbuss insanity
>     through the relatively simple registers that an RH11 uses....
> 
>     That?s the plan; That and getting a Chaosnet so I can connect my
>     CADR to my KS10 when I get them both working at the same time.
> 
> 
> I had plans to do an RH11 emulation, I can move it up in the stack 
> (though it won't be until early next year), and when Joerg's able to 
> provide 18-bit support we can start testing?it on 36-bit machines...
> 
> 
> - Josh
> 

From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Tue Nov 19 19:07:07 2019
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 20:07:07 -0500
Subject: Meantime, fixing RX50's.
Message-ID: <167243ce-baeb-83bc-ebf8-ac4b93edbc36@alembic.crystel.com>

So while trying to figure out this XXDP format error (the FCT Write 
protect enabled one that's stopping me from formatting an RD54) I spent 
a bit of time copying the floppy to a backup disk. My RX50 was *very* 
flakey, throwing errors so I pulled it to see what was up.

Opened the unit and sure enough: The disk head could use a cleaning, and 
more important the little pad on the other side came off when I touched 
it. Apparently the glue holding it in has decayed in the past 30 years. 
Drat.

Used isopropyl and q tips to clean the heads, then broke a Q tip in half 
and put a bit of cyanacryllic glue on the tip, then transferred it to 
the pad holder, then put the pad back on. Pressed down and breathed on 
it to give the glue some moisture and waited an hour. Did same to other 
head.

RX50 now works perfectly, and I was able to make and boot a backup. So 
if your RX50 is flakey check to see if the pads are still on the head 
assembly, it's possible it is loose or fell off (if fell off look around 
in the RX50 for it, probably in there somewhere)

Never dull. Now to figure out this write protection issue: I have set 
the drive to unit 4 (well 3 in the 0-3 world), set the RQDX3 to pins 1 
and 2 on the write precomp jumper, and it still comes up but thinks the 
drive is write protected.

Drat.

From derschjo at gmail.com  Tue Nov 19 21:35:44 2019
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 19:35:44 -0800
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
In-Reply-To: <8292743a-f485-4ad1-2bce-d6e513b0ed5b@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <825c8a67-ae5c-f93b-9b73-b993787db229@t-online.de>
 <4A3363C9-6B82-4C0C-8F81-DEDC601BCD05@lunar-tokyo.net>
 <63727e39-257d-9334-a775-607ea78543f4@alembic.crystel.com>
 <1A4F53CD-CBE8-465D-A38C-5C44C804F640@lunar-tokyo.net>
 <CADBZjLbM4Uj3+qn1par7M9ZFi4kFQz2EYinu2RTsPxBheAYUwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8292743a-f485-4ad1-2bce-d6e513b0ed5b@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <CADBZjLaxAVKm=yqucwrwSWFTTAOucxTSt2Li=s+TgU75tT3wLQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 4:59 PM Chris Zach <cz at alembic.crystel.com> wrote:

> Whelp, if you're planning on doing this early next year I'll start
> dragging the KS10 box out of storage and cleaning it off. If you sell
> the boards let me know so I can buy one and support your efforts.
>

Joerg is the one building and selling the board, I'm just a
satisfied customer who's also been hacking new device support into it.
I'll keep y'all posted as to when I make progress on this.

Also if anyone has a KS they could, uh, "lend" me it sure would speed up
the development process and I'm sure you'd eventually get it back someday.

(Kidding.)

- Josh

(Not really kidding.)



>
> CZ
>
> On 11/19/2019 7:53 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 2:26 PM Daniel Seagraves via cctalk
> > <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
> >
> >      > On Nov 19, 2019, at 7:39 AM, Chris Zach via cctech
> >     <cctech at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctech at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
> >      >
> >      > Ah. Another solution to the fabled "MASSBUS" to anything adapter?
> >     Putting it in at the RH11-C level would remove a fair bit of
> >     complexity, then you could simply emulate all the Massbuss insanity
> >     through the relatively simple registers that an RH11 uses....
> >
> >     That?s the plan; That and getting a Chaosnet so I can connect my
> >     CADR to my KS10 when I get them both working at the same time.
> >
> >
> > I had plans to do an RH11 emulation, I can move it up in the stack
> > (though it won't be until early next year), and when Joerg's able to
> > provide 18-bit support we can start testing it on 36-bit machines...
> >
> >
> > - Josh
> >
>

From derschjo at gmail.com  Tue Nov 19 21:35:44 2019
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 19:35:44 -0800
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
In-Reply-To: <8292743a-f485-4ad1-2bce-d6e513b0ed5b@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <825c8a67-ae5c-f93b-9b73-b993787db229@t-online.de>
 <4A3363C9-6B82-4C0C-8F81-DEDC601BCD05@lunar-tokyo.net>
 <63727e39-257d-9334-a775-607ea78543f4@alembic.crystel.com>
 <1A4F53CD-CBE8-465D-A38C-5C44C804F640@lunar-tokyo.net>
 <CADBZjLbM4Uj3+qn1par7M9ZFi4kFQz2EYinu2RTsPxBheAYUwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8292743a-f485-4ad1-2bce-d6e513b0ed5b@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <CADBZjLaxAVKm=yqucwrwSWFTTAOucxTSt2Li=s+TgU75tT3wLQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 4:59 PM Chris Zach <cz at alembic.crystel.com> wrote:

> Whelp, if you're planning on doing this early next year I'll start
> dragging the KS10 box out of storage and cleaning it off. If you sell
> the boards let me know so I can buy one and support your efforts.
>

Joerg is the one building and selling the board, I'm just a
satisfied customer who's also been hacking new device support into it.
I'll keep y'all posted as to when I make progress on this.

Also if anyone has a KS they could, uh, "lend" me it sure would speed up
the development process and I'm sure you'd eventually get it back someday.

(Kidding.)

- Josh

(Not really kidding.)



>
> CZ
>
> On 11/19/2019 7:53 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 2:26 PM Daniel Seagraves via cctalk
> > <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
> >
> >      > On Nov 19, 2019, at 7:39 AM, Chris Zach via cctech
> >     <cctech at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctech at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
> >      >
> >      > Ah. Another solution to the fabled "MASSBUS" to anything adapter?
> >     Putting it in at the RH11-C level would remove a fair bit of
> >     complexity, then you could simply emulate all the Massbuss insanity
> >     through the relatively simple registers that an RH11 uses....
> >
> >     That?s the plan; That and getting a Chaosnet so I can connect my
> >     CADR to my KS10 when I get them both working at the same time.
> >
> >
> > I had plans to do an RH11 emulation, I can move it up in the stack
> > (though it won't be until early next year), and when Joerg's able to
> > provide 18-bit support we can start testing it on 36-bit machines...
> >
> >
> > - Josh
> >
>

From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Tue Nov 19 22:13:34 2019
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 23:13:34 -0500
Subject: Got it: RD54 formatting write protect solved
Message-ID: <72ff34c8-1d0d-fc4d-c839-f41bbc1f2e80@alembic.crystel.com>

Figured it out at last. On a BA23, the RD54 needs to be jumpered at the 
disk as UNIT 3, and I had it as unit 4. Thus the jumper needed to be 
between 3 and C, I had it one stake over between 4 and C.

Fixed that, did the format where you do not select Autoformat, and 
downline load UIT and you get the disk going tick, tick, tick as the 
sectors are formatted. Here is Terry Kennedy's instructions updated to a 
BA23 instead of a BA123:

DR> STA

CHANGE HW (L)  ? Y

# UNITS (D)  ? 1

UNIT 0
Enter controller IP address (O)  172150 ?
What unit do you want to format [0-255] (D)  0 ? 0
Would you like to revector a single LBN only [Y/N] (L) N ?
Do you want to use the "AUTOFORMAT" Mode [Y/N] (L) Y ? N


Would you like to use the RCT - Revector known bad blocks [Y/N] (L) N ?

**** WARNING ****

[text about don't proceed if you're just kidding deleted]

Do you wish to continue [Y/N] (L) Y ?


MSCP Controller Model:  19
     Microcode Version:   4

Do you want to use manufacturing bad block information [Y/N] (A) N ?

Downline load UIT [Y/N] (A) Y ?


  UIT  Drive Name
-------------------------------------------------------
   0   RD51
   1   RD52 part # 30-21721-02 (1 light on front panel)
   2   RD52 part # 30-23227-02 (2 lights on front panel)
   3   RD53
   4   RD31
   5   RD54
   6   RD32

Enter Unit Identifier Table (UIT) [0-7] (D)  ? 5

Continue if bad block information is inaccessible [Y/N] (A) N ? Y

Please type in the serial number [8-10 digits] (A)  ? 013284212 (use 
whatever you want)


Formatting of Drive 1 Begin.

[a long sequences of messages is displayed here, 1 per minute, showing the
progress of formatting and what step is in progress on which block number.]

Format Completed.

And Bob's your uncle!

From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Wed Nov 20 00:03:44 2019
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 22:03:44 -0800
Subject: Meantime, fixing RX50's.
In-Reply-To: <167243ce-baeb-83bc-ebf8-ac4b93edbc36@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <167243ce-baeb-83bc-ebf8-ac4b93edbc36@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <D43F6AD8-B593-4F81-903C-0C23AE93FBEF@gmail.com>



Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 19, 2019, at 17:07, Chris Zach via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> ?So while trying to figure out this XXDP format error (the FCT Write protect enabled one that's stopping me from formatting an RD54) I spent a bit of time copying the floppy to a backup disk. My RX50 was *very* flakey, throwing errors so I pulled it to see what was up.
> 
> Opened the unit and sure enough: The disk head could use a cleaning, and more important the little pad on the other side came off when I touched it. Apparently the glue holding it in has decayed in the past 30 years. Drat.
> 
> Used isopropyl and q tips to clean the heads, then broke a Q tip in half and put a bit of cyanacryllic glue on the tip, then transferred it to the pad holder, then put the pad back on. Pressed down and breathed on it to give the glue some moisture and waited an hour. Did same to other head.
> 
> RX50 now works perfectly, and I was able to make and boot a backup. So if your RX50 is flakey check to see if the pads are still on the head assembly, it's possible it is loose or fell off (if fell off look around in the RX50 for it, probably in there somewhere)
> 
> Never dull. Now to figure out this write protection issue: I have set the drive to unit 4 (well 3 in the 0-3 world), set the RQDX3 to pins 1 and 2 on the write precomp jumper, and it still comes up but thinks the drive is write protected.
> 
> Drat.

From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Wed Nov 20 00:14:39 2019
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 22:14:39 -0800
Subject: Got it: RD54 formatting write protect solved
In-Reply-To: <72ff34c8-1d0d-fc4d-c839-f41bbc1f2e80@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <72ff34c8-1d0d-fc4d-c839-f41bbc1f2e80@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <609D3395-42BC-49CF-88A8-C7F3D939EC8A@gmail.com>

Nice going!

Related story:
I had probs formatting a maxtor 11xx (not an actual xt-2190 but really close) as an rd54 due to geometry differences and binary patched that formatter to deal with it using the xxdp equivalent of od.  Have the patched xxdp formatter binary on an rl02 pack here if anyone needs it.

 Works a treat, close enough that dec software thinks it?s an rd54. 

Jake

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 19, 2019, at 20:13, Chris Zach via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> ?Figured it out at last. On a BA23, the RD54 needs to be jumpered at the disk as UNIT 3, and I had it as unit 4. Thus the jumper needed to be between 3 and C, I had it one stake over between 4 and C.
> 
> Fixed that, did the format where you do not select Autoformat, and downline load UIT and you get the disk going tick, tick, tick as the sectors are formatted. Here is Terry Kennedy's instructions updated to a BA23 instead of a BA123:
> 
> DR> STA
> 
> CHANGE HW (L)  ? Y
> 
> # UNITS (D)  ? 1
> 
> UNIT 0
> Enter controller IP address (O)  172150 ?
> What unit do you want to format [0-255] (D)  0 ? 0
> Would you like to revector a single LBN only [Y/N] (L) N ?
> Do you want to use the "AUTOFORMAT" Mode [Y/N] (L) Y ? N
> 
> 
> Would you like to use the RCT - Revector known bad blocks [Y/N] (L) N ?
> 
> **** WARNING ****
> 
> [text about don't proceed if you're just kidding deleted]
> 
> Do you wish to continue [Y/N] (L) Y ?
> 
> 
> MSCP Controller Model:  19
>    Microcode Version:   4
> 
> Do you want to use manufacturing bad block information [Y/N] (A) N ?
> 
> Downline load UIT [Y/N] (A) Y ?
> 
> 
> UIT  Drive Name
> -------------------------------------------------------
>  0   RD51
>  1   RD52 part # 30-21721-02 (1 light on front panel)
>  2   RD52 part # 30-23227-02 (2 lights on front panel)
>  3   RD53
>  4   RD31
>  5   RD54
>  6   RD32
> 
> Enter Unit Identifier Table (UIT) [0-7] (D)  ? 5
> 
> Continue if bad block information is inaccessible [Y/N] (A) N ? Y
> 
> Please type in the serial number [8-10 digits] (A)  ? 013284212 (use whatever you want)
> 
> 
> Formatting of Drive 1 Begin.
> 
> [a long sequences of messages is displayed here, 1 per minute, showing the
> progress of formatting and what step is in progress on which block number.]
> 
> Format Completed.
> 
> And Bob's your uncle!

From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net  Wed Nov 20 09:20:57 2019
From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 09:20:57 -0600
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
In-Reply-To: <CADBZjLaxAVKm=yqucwrwSWFTTAOucxTSt2Li=s+TgU75tT3wLQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <825c8a67-ae5c-f93b-9b73-b993787db229@t-online.de>
 <4A3363C9-6B82-4C0C-8F81-DEDC601BCD05@lunar-tokyo.net>
 <63727e39-257d-9334-a775-607ea78543f4@alembic.crystel.com>
 <1A4F53CD-CBE8-465D-A38C-5C44C804F640@lunar-tokyo.net>
 <CADBZjLbM4Uj3+qn1par7M9ZFi4kFQz2EYinu2RTsPxBheAYUwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8292743a-f485-4ad1-2bce-d6e513b0ed5b@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CADBZjLaxAVKm=yqucwrwSWFTTAOucxTSt2Li=s+TgU75tT3wLQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CDF7F94D-5005-4C3C-BD03-533BEA67E900@lunar-tokyo.net>

> On Nov 19, 2019, at 9:35 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Joerg is the one building and selling the board, I'm just a satisfied customer who's also been hacking new device support into it.  I'll keep y'all posted as to when I make progress on this.
> 
> Also if anyone has a KS they could, uh, "lend" me it sure would speed up the development process and I'm sure you'd eventually get it back someday.
> 
> (Kidding.)

Well, I was expecting to have to do all of the work myself. There?s still the problem of the disk Unibus itself to solve - the disk UBA doesn?t terminate into a normal Unibus. It goes into the disk RH11 directly, and the bus is terminated on the far end of the RH11. I?d either have to buy another Unibus backplane to plug the Unibone into, or find a way to plug the cables from the UBA directly into the Unibone. This still leaves the issue of terminating the bus. The ideal scenario would be if the first slot of a RH11 (where the bus jumper comes in) can accommodate the (quad card) Unibone without issues, the rest of the RH11 boards can simply be pulled without breaking bus continuity, and the normal terminator in the far slot can be used. I haven?t looked at any prints or anything yet.

The ?second? Unibus is otherwise normal.



From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Wed Nov 20 10:37:14 2019
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 11:37:14 -0500
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
In-Reply-To: <CDF7F94D-5005-4C3C-BD03-533BEA67E900@lunar-tokyo.net>
References: <825c8a67-ae5c-f93b-9b73-b993787db229@t-online.de>
 <4A3363C9-6B82-4C0C-8F81-DEDC601BCD05@lunar-tokyo.net>
 <63727e39-257d-9334-a775-607ea78543f4@alembic.crystel.com>
 <1A4F53CD-CBE8-465D-A38C-5C44C804F640@lunar-tokyo.net>
 <CADBZjLbM4Uj3+qn1par7M9ZFi4kFQz2EYinu2RTsPxBheAYUwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8292743a-f485-4ad1-2bce-d6e513b0ed5b@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CADBZjLaxAVKm=yqucwrwSWFTTAOucxTSt2Li=s+TgU75tT3wLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CDF7F94D-5005-4C3C-BD03-533BEA67E900@lunar-tokyo.net>
Message-ID: <de609991-4c16-35cc-6986-b2b6d6ddb751@alembic.crystel.com>

> Well, I was expecting to have to do all of the work myself. There?s still the problem of the disk Unibus itself to solve - the disk UBA doesn?t terminate into a normal Unibus. It goes into the disk RH11 directly, and the bus is terminated on the far end of the RH11. I?d either have to buy another Unibus backplane to plug the Unibone into, or find a way to plug the cables from the UBA directly into the Unibone. This still leaves the issue of terminating the bus. The ideal scenario would be if the first slot of a RH11 (where the bus jumper comes in) can accommodate the (quad card) Unibone without issues, the rest of the RH11 boards can simply be pulled without breaking bus continuity, and the normal terminator in the far slot can be used. I haven?t looked at any prints or anything yet.

Right, there were two unibus ports on a 2020: The first one went to the 
RH11-C and was very odd in that "Hog Mode DMA" was enabled to allow the 
device to just stream data as much as it wanted to the controller. This 
would mean that other devices on the bus would time out and not have 
their interrupts serviced, but since the RH11 was the only thing it 
didn't matter (and I think this is why you could use RM03's instead of 
RM02's: The whole track could be read and buffered to the 2020's UBA 
controller in one shot. That would have to be programmed into the BBB 
software to ignore the 16 word DMA limits and go as fast as the drive 
can go).

So you would need two BA11's, one for the RH11C and one for the DZ11's 
and other unibus "stuff". *however* I seem to recall that the RH11C 
included a full length unibus slot after the boards, so maybe you could 
pull the RH11 boards and plug the BBB board into the end of the RH11C....

Gotta drag this stuff out and take a look. Oh and RD54's are *slow* 
compared to ESDI disks and controllers. Ouchies!

C

From allisonportable at gmail.com  Wed Nov 20 10:45:06 2019
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 11:45:06 -0500
Subject: Got it: RD54 formatting write protect solved
In-Reply-To: <609D3395-42BC-49CF-88A8-C7F3D939EC8A@gmail.com>
References: <72ff34c8-1d0d-fc4d-c839-f41bbc1f2e80@alembic.crystel.com>
 <609D3395-42BC-49CF-88A8-C7F3D939EC8A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55abfc3a-47c5-4814-e8a9-73c8215d85e7@gmail.com>

I Use a spare MicroVAX-2000, the system roms ahve good diags and
formatter for floppies and HD.

Allison


On 11/20/19 1:14 AM, Jacob Ritorto via cctalk wrote:
> Nice going!
> 
> Related story:
> I had probs formatting a maxtor 11xx (not an actual xt-2190 but really close) as an rd54 due to geometry differences and binary patched that formatter to deal with it using the xxdp equivalent of od.  Have the patched xxdp formatter binary on an rl02 pack here if anyone needs it.
> 
>  Works a treat, close enough that dec software thinks it?s an rd54. 
> 
> Jake
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Nov 19, 2019, at 20:13, Chris Zach via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> ?Figured it out at last. On a BA23, the RD54 needs to be jumpered at the disk as UNIT 3, and I had it as unit 4. Thus the jumper needed to be between 3 and C, I had it one stake over between 4 and C.
>>
>> Fixed that, did the format where you do not select Autoformat, and downline load UIT and you get the disk going tick, tick, tick as the sectors are formatted. Here is Terry Kennedy's instructions updated to a BA23 instead of a BA123:
>>
>> DR> STA
>>
>> CHANGE HW (L)  ? Y
>>
>> # UNITS (D)  ? 1
>>
>> UNIT 0
>> Enter controller IP address (O)  172150 ?
>> What unit do you want to format [0-255] (D)  0 ? 0
>> Would you like to revector a single LBN only [Y/N] (L) N ?
>> Do you want to use the "AUTOFORMAT" Mode [Y/N] (L) Y ? N
>>
>>
>> Would you like to use the RCT - Revector known bad blocks [Y/N] (L) N ?
>>
>> **** WARNING ****
>>
>> [text about don't proceed if you're just kidding deleted]
>>
>> Do you wish to continue [Y/N] (L) Y ?
>>
>>
>> MSCP Controller Model:  19
>>    Microcode Version:   4
>>
>> Do you want to use manufacturing bad block information [Y/N] (A) N ?
>>
>> Downline load UIT [Y/N] (A) Y ?
>>
>>
>> UIT  Drive Name
>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>  0   RD51
>>  1   RD52 part # 30-21721-02 (1 light on front panel)
>>  2   RD52 part # 30-23227-02 (2 lights on front panel)
>>  3   RD53
>>  4   RD31
>>  5   RD54
>>  6   RD32
>>
>> Enter Unit Identifier Table (UIT) [0-7] (D)  ? 5
>>
>> Continue if bad block information is inaccessible [Y/N] (A) N ? Y
>>
>> Please type in the serial number [8-10 digits] (A)  ? 013284212 (use whatever you want)
>>
>>
>> Formatting of Drive 1 Begin.
>>
>> [a long sequences of messages is displayed here, 1 per minute, showing the
>> progress of formatting and what step is in progress on which block number.]
>>
>> Format Completed.
>>
>> And Bob's your uncle!


From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net  Wed Nov 20 11:34:55 2019
From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 11:34:55 -0600
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
In-Reply-To: <de609991-4c16-35cc-6986-b2b6d6ddb751@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <825c8a67-ae5c-f93b-9b73-b993787db229@t-online.de>
 <4A3363C9-6B82-4C0C-8F81-DEDC601BCD05@lunar-tokyo.net>
 <63727e39-257d-9334-a775-607ea78543f4@alembic.crystel.com>
 <1A4F53CD-CBE8-465D-A38C-5C44C804F640@lunar-tokyo.net>
 <CADBZjLbM4Uj3+qn1par7M9ZFi4kFQz2EYinu2RTsPxBheAYUwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8292743a-f485-4ad1-2bce-d6e513b0ed5b@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CADBZjLaxAVKm=yqucwrwSWFTTAOucxTSt2Li=s+TgU75tT3wLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CDF7F94D-5005-4C3C-BD03-533BEA67E900@lunar-tokyo.net>
 <de609991-4c16-35cc-6986-b2b6d6ddb751@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <554C3409-D596-489C-AB8F-961BA10566D7@lunar-tokyo.net>

> On Nov 20, 2019, at 10:37 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Gotta drag this stuff out and take a look. Oh and RD54's are *slow* compared to ESDI disks and controllers. Ouchies!

Can?t be worse than my original plan, which was to use a Viking SCSI controller and hack all the things to support it. Bit fiddling happened in the driver, in exec mode. I actually had a hacked standalone DSKDMP that knew how to format ?packs? on it, but it was so dog slow I never bothered writing a timesharing driver for it, instead waiting until someone came up with a better solution.


From j_hoppe at t-online.de  Wed Nov 20 15:02:18 2019
From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 22:02:18 +0100
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
Message-ID: <50935ea8-1847-7b9a-41e6-7757646f3ca4@t-online.de>

 >> Well, I was expecting to have to do all of the work myself. There?s 
still the problem of the disk Unibus itself to solve
 > -the disk UBA doesn?t terminate into a normal Unibus.
 > It goes into the disk RH11 directly, and the bus is terminated on the 
far end of the RH11. I?d either have to buy another Unibus backplane to 
plug the Unibone into, or find a way to plug the cables from the UBA 
directly into the Unibone.
 >This still leaves the issue of terminating the bus.
 > The ideal scenario would be if the first slot of a RH11 (where the 
bus jumper comes in) can accommodate the (quad card)
 > Unibone without issues, the rest of the RH11 boards can simply be 
pulled without breaking bus continuity,
 > and the normal terminator in the far slot can be used. I haven?t 
looked at any prints or anything yet.
I gave UniBone a set of pinheaders for all UNIBUS signals in parallel to 
the gold fingers.
So an adapter board can be designed, which plugs onto the pinheaders, 
contains some provision for the UBA connection and contains the 
terminator array.
The UBA-UniBone adapter may consist of two parts coupled via flat cable, 
with flipchip plugs on one end if necessary.
All this is only mildly annoying, did similar before, for example 
http://www.retrocmp.com/tools/uniprobe

 > Right, there were two unibus ports on a 2020: The first one went to the
 > RH11-C and was very odd in that "Hog Mode DMA" was enabled to allow the
 > device to just stream data as much as it wanted to the controller. This
 > would mean that other devices on the bus would time out and not have
 > their interrupts serviced, but since the RH11 was the only thing it
 > didn't matter (and I think this is why you could use RM03's instead of
 > RM02's: The whole track could be read and buffered to the 2020's UBA
 > controller in one shot.
 > That would have to be programmed into the BBB software to ignore the 
16 word
 > DMA limits and go as fast as the drive can go).

As the disk drives are also emulated, they are not putting any 
constraints on the DMA logic: give them the speed and DMA length you prefer.

Joerg


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu Nov 21 17:33:03 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 18:33:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
Message-ID: <20191121233303.B1D8F18C080@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: J?rg Hoppe

    > did DEC construct 18bit mutants for a few PDP-11 peripherals to run
    > them in KS10?

Yes and no. There were two 18-bit UNIBUS devices, but they were originally
done for the PDP-15 (DEC's last 18-bit machine). They were the RK11-E and the
RH11-AB. When the KS10 appeared, the RH11 was re-purposed for it. 

(How the RH11-C in the KS20 differed I'm not sure. I know it used the
M7294-YA instead of the M7294, but I'm not sure how that differed. It's the
MASSBUS data buffer and control, so it's something MASSBUS related. The
RH11-AB already has the 18-bit stuff; see 4.16 "Logic Diagram DBCE", pg. 4-28
(65 of the PDF) in "RH11-AB Option Description" for details; it's poorly
documented.)


    > From: Daniel Seagraves

    > There's still the problem of the disk Unibus itself to solve - the disk
    > UBA doesn't terminate into a normal Unibus. It goes into the disk RH11
    > directly, and the bus is terminated on the far end of the RH11. ... The
    > ideal scenario would be if the first slot of a RH11 (where the bus
    > jumper comes in) can accommodate the (quad card) Unibone without
    > issues, the rest of the RH11 boards can simply be pulled without
    > breaking bus continuity

The RH11-C seems like it's very similar to the RH11-AB, physically. Both the
'disk' and 'tape' RH11-C's seem like they are separate 9-slot system units,
with the same layout (in terms of boards->slots). Both have 3 Small
Peripheral Controller slots, like the -AB.

The first slot is purpose-wired to hold the M7296 and M7297:

 https://gunkies.org/wiki/RH11_MASSBUS_controller#Backplane_layout

so 'no' to that idea. Although, with the 3 SPC slots - although they are on
UNIBUS A, and only UNIBUS B has the 18-bit capability - although maybe the
two can be jumpered together (the way the two UNIBI in the KD11-A/D can).
(IIRC, the "RH11 Peripheral Controller Course" may talk about that.)

I don't think things will work with the RH11 boards pulled, unless you
manually jumper whatever pins are used to feed NPG and BG? through the
device. Probably the easiest thing is to change the bus address of the
RH11.

    > From: Chris Zach

    > I seem to recall that the RH11C included a full length unibus slot
    > after the boards

Depends what you mean by "full-length"; no MUD (hex) slots, but yes to SPC
slots (SPC) - as above.

	Noel

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu Nov 21 20:14:54 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 21:14:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
Message-ID: <20191122021454.7714118C080@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > maybe the two can be jumpered together (the way the two UNIBI in the
    > KD11-A/D can).

Actually, now that I think about it, that might be the reason for the order
of the UNIBUS A out B in/out slots in the backplane:

 https://gunkies.org/wiki/RH11_MASSBUS_controller#Backplane_layout

One of those thin M9200 UNIBUS jumpers could be used to connect the A out to
the B in.


    > Depends what you mean by "full-length"; no MUD (hex) slots, but yes to
    > SPC slots (SPC)

Oooh, typo: 'SPC slots (quad)'

	Noel

`

From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Thu Nov 21 21:13:30 2019
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 22:13:30 -0500
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
In-Reply-To: <20191122021454.7714118C080@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20191122021454.7714118C080@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <19628362-7174-6595-7694-378eabeeb96c@alembic.crystel.com>

I *think* (and this is putting the wayback hat on) that the RH11 
originally was the controller for the RS03 and RS04 fixed head disk 
drives. The dual Unibus was so you could put them on Unibus A for 
talking to the 11/45's main bus with data transfers ripping across 
Unibus B directly to the dual-ported memory on the 45.

Thus one of the Unibus ports didn't need to worry about arbitration (it 
was the only thing on the bus) and could stream data from the (very 
quick) RS03/04's right into memory for the ultimate swap device.

The 2020 takes advanatge of this with the dual unibus adapter, one talks 
to the chatty stuff like the DZ11's, the other has no arbitration issues 
as it sucks data down from the faster spinning RM03s without timeouts.

One of my long term questions has been to see if a 2020 could talk to a 
RM80. It should be possible as the Massbus personality module talks to 
the bus at 3600 RPM just like the RM03, and they did manage to get the 
R80 to talk to the 11/730 with a dedicated memory channel connection 
(though maybe the R80 was heavily interleaved)

C

On 11/21/2019 9:14 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
>      > maybe the two can be jumpered together (the way the two UNIBI in the
>      > KD11-A/D can).
> 
> Actually, now that I think about it, that might be the reason for the order
> of the UNIBUS A out B in/out slots in the backplane:
> 
>   https://gunkies.org/wiki/RH11_MASSBUS_controller#Backplane_layout
> 
> One of those thin M9200 UNIBUS jumpers could be used to connect the A out to
> the B in.
> 
> 
>      > Depends what you mean by "full-length"; no MUD (hex) slots, but yes to
>      > SPC slots (SPC)
> 
> Oooh, typo: 'SPC slots (quad)'
> 
> 	Noel
> 
> `
> 

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri Nov 22 07:38:57 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 08:38:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
Message-ID: <20191122133857.C8BD818C080@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > Although, with the 3 SPC slots - although they are on UNIBUS A, and only
    > UNIBUS B has the 18-bit capability

Duhhhh. My brain finally turned on.

It is of course perfectly possible to run UNIBUS _A_ (where the SPC slots are)
in 18-bit mode too - although the _RH11_ can't use it that way. But you won't
be using the RH11 anyway, so who cares?

Also, I took another look at the KS10 tech manual, and they do in fact use use
an M9200 'thin' jumper (although it's mis-labelled "M9300" in the diagram -
that diagram has a number of errors, including the "M8014" in the UNIBUS 'A'
In slot - they must mean an M9014 [UNIBUS to 3 flat cables] instead) to link
the two UNIBI together. Which answers the question of how the KS10 CPU gained
access to UNIBUS A (where the device registers, interrupts, etc are) when it
also had to be connected to UNIBUS B (for 18-bit data transfers).

So I think all our questions are answerered (except for the -AB/-C difference
issue).

	Noel

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Fri Nov 22 13:01:04 2019
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 14:01:04 -0500
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
In-Reply-To: <19628362-7174-6595-7694-378eabeeb96c@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <20191122021454.7714118C080@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <19628362-7174-6595-7694-378eabeeb96c@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <DA29CB79-3F03-43C7-AC10-CE7F5C017BB8@comcast.net>



> On Nov 21, 2019, at 10:13 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> I *think* (and this is putting the wayback hat on) that the RH11 originally was the controller for the RS03 and RS04 fixed head disk drives. The dual Unibus was so you could put them on Unibus A for talking to the 11/45's main bus with data transfers ripping across Unibus B directly to the dual-ported memory on the 45.
> 
> Thus one of the Unibus ports didn't need to worry about arbitration (it was the only thing on the bus) and could stream data from the (very quick) RS03/04's right into memory for the ultimate swap device.

Nice swap device, certainly.  But the RS04 isn't actually all that fast.  The book says 4 microseconds per word, compare that with the RP04 at 2.5 microseconds per word.  I remember we got an RP04 on our college 11/45 in 1974 or early 1975, but that one still had an RF11 swapping disk.  So it's not clear to me which came first.

> The 2020 takes advanatge of this with the dual unibus adapter, one talks to the chatty stuff like the DZ11's, the other has no arbitration issues as it sucks data down from the faster spinning RM03s without timeouts.

RH11 machines could use the RM02 but not RM03; that one was supported only on the 11/70 because of its speed.  But it's way faster than these other disks we mentioned.  And then there was the RP07, which was never officially supported on any PDP11 even though it did work fine on an 11/70; it was the "super large" disk on the main RSTS/E development system.

> One of my long term questions has been to see if a 2020 could talk to a RM80. It should be possible as the Massbus personality module talks to the bus at 3600 RPM just like the RM03, and they did manage to get the R80 to talk to the 11/730 with a dedicated memory channel connection (though maybe the R80 was heavily interleaved)

If it can handle an RM03, then I'd expect an RM80 should work also since it transfers at the same speed.

	paul


From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Fri Nov 22 13:16:58 2019
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 14:16:58 -0500
Subject: Who changed the gravitational constant (Dec pdp11 stuff)
Message-ID: <7d2c0247-5d78-1820-d865-481f37c2bc3a@alembic.crystel.com>

I do not remember these RL02 drives being this heavy.....

https://i.imgur.com/7BwIwas.jpg

On a slightly more interesting note it looks like I only have RL02 
drives (3) and do not have any RL01 drives. That could be a problem if I 
want to re-load Cobol 81 onto this RSTS/E system. However the RL02's 
*should* allow me to reboot RSX11M 4.2 and repair the instance of RSX11M 
4.0 that is on my Fujitsu drive (damaged).

Likewise my RT11 images might be on RL01. However I do have the Plessey 
disk drive that emulated 4 RK05's on a fixed platter and a removable 
platter disk subsystem (which uses disks that look like RL01's but are 
*NOT* RL01's) and I *think* I had either RT11 with MUBASIC or a really 
weird Gen of RSX11M and RT11. Though I'm not sure if RSX11M would run on 
RK05's as boot devices (2.5mb of space)

The dig continues. This weekend I'll see if I can fire a RL02 up.

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Fri Nov 22 13:22:53 2019
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 14:22:53 -0500
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
In-Reply-To: <4f8f00c4-011b-a96f-b4e5-3146112c5c7c@figureeightbrewing.com>
References: <20191122021454.7714118C080@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <19628362-7174-6595-7694-378eabeeb96c@alembic.crystel.com>
 <DA29CB79-3F03-43C7-AC10-CE7F5C017BB8@comcast.net>
 <4f8f00c4-011b-a96f-b4e5-3146112c5c7c@figureeightbrewing.com>
Message-ID: <68B51E2D-334C-4622-9AB8-408E4E711609@comcast.net>



> On Nov 22, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Tom Uban <tom at figureeightbrewing.com> wrote:
> 
> On 11/22/19 1:01 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
>> 
>>> On Nov 21, 2019, at 10:13 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I *think* (and this is putting the wayback hat on) that the RH11 originally was the controller for the RS03 and RS04 fixed head disk drives. The dual Unibus was so you could put them on Unibus A for talking to the 11/45's main bus with data transfers ripping across Unibus B directly to the dual-ported memory on the 45.
>>> 
>>> Thus one of the Unibus ports didn't need to worry about arbitration (it was the only thing on the bus) and could stream data from the (very quick) RS03/04's right into memory for the ultimate swap device.
>> Nice swap device, certainly.  But the RS04 isn't actually all that fast.  The book says 4 microseconds per word, compare that with the RP04 at 2.5 microseconds per word.  I remember we got an RP04 on our college 11/45 in 1974 or early 1975, but that one still had an RF11 swapping disk.  So it's not clear to me which came first.
> But being a fixed head drive, the RS04 has no seek latency, so probably faster overall than a moving
> head drive.

Absolutely, that makes it great for swapping.  But the RH11 issue is purely about transfer rate, and for that concern the RS04 is just not a problem at all.

> We had an RS04 swap device on our 11/70 at Purdue Electrical Engineering Network running BSD Unix.
> It had been running for so long that the disk/head lubricant had worn away. If it was ever spun
> down, it would have to be hand spun to overcome the initial friction, but then it was fine.

Our college RF11 ran into this, but in that case some of the plastic involved apparently melted, gluing the heads to the platter.  The local field service tech rebuilt the drive, on site (!), replacing platter and heads and reformatting the timing track.  Worked fine.  An impressive performance, one certainly not to be expected from his younger "just swap the board" technicians.

	paul


From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri Nov 22 13:36:18 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 11:36:18 -0800
Subject: Who changed the gravitational constant (Dec pdp11 stuff)
In-Reply-To: <7d2c0247-5d78-1820-d865-481f37c2bc3a@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <7d2c0247-5d78-1820-d865-481f37c2bc3a@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <4f1b4c74-02ce-f385-e6b3-3db252ada6d3@bitsavers.org>



On 11/22/19 11:16 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
> That
> could be a problem if I want to re-load Cobol 81 onto this RSTS/E system.

weren't RL01s usable in an RL02?



From j_hoppe at t-online.de  Fri Nov 22 08:13:14 2019
From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 15:13:14 +0100
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
Message-ID: <5e1e55bb-3c4f-2d73-d8a2-4180844f2763@t-online.de>

  * *Messages sorted by:* [ date ]
    <http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2019-November/date.html#41793>
    [ thread ]
    <http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2019-November/thread.html#41793>
    [ subject ]
    <http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2019-November/subject.html#41793>
    [ author ]
    <http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2019-November/author.html#41793>


------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> Although, with the 3 SPC slots - although they are on UNIBUS A, and only
>> UNIBUS B has the 18-bit capability
>
> It is of course perfectly possible to run UNIBUS _A_ (where the SPC slots are)
> in 18-bit mode too - although the _RH11_ can't use it that way. But you won't
> be using the RH11 anyway, so who cares?
>
>Also, I took another look at the KS10 tech manual, and they do in fact use use
>an M9200 'thin' jumper (although it's mis-labelled "M9300" in the diagram -
>that diagram has a number of errors, including the "M8014" in the UNIBUS 'A'
>In slot - they must mean an M9014 [UNIBUS to 3 flat cables] instead) to link
>the two UNIBI together. Which answers the question of how the KS10 CPU gained
>access to UNIBUS A (where the device registers, interrupts, etc are) when it
>also had to be connected to UNIBUS B (for 18-bit data transfers).
>
>So I think all our questions are answerered (except for the -AB/-C difference
>issue).
So I understand right:
UniBone can be used in UNIBUS-A SPC slots in 18 bit mode without any extra adapters?
And can emulate an RH11-C there, even if the RH11 is supposed to run in UNIBUS B?
Thats good news.

Two more things to check:
1. We've seen early SPC slots (PDP-11/40, '45) without NPG wired,
'cause SPC was apparently originally meant for "Small" peripherals without DMA.
Is KS10 UNIBUS-A wired to be DMA capable?

2. When doing 18bit on UNIBUS-A we put all kind of signal levels
on parity lines PA,PB = DATA<16:17>.
Won't the KS10 CPU interpret these as real BUS parity errors generated
by some UNIBUS-A device?

best regards
Joerg


  


From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com  Fri Nov 22 12:36:16 2019
From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 13:36:16 -0500
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1574445600.1782.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.3.1574445600.1782.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CAH1BU=_xSOPgbMivzxSWc_yHUY+hkDnD7-R5FLrQavSTxw0Vfw@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 22:13:30 -0500
> From: Chris Zach <cz at alembic.crystel.com>
> Subject: Re: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
>
> One of my long term questions has been to see if a 2020 could talk to a
> RM80. It should be possible as the Massbus personality module talks to
> the bus at 3600 RPM just like the RM03, and they did manage to get the
> R80 to talk to the 11/730 with a dedicated memory channel connection
> (though maybe the R80 was heavily interleaved)
>
> C
>

ITS could boot from an RM80 on a 2020.

-- 
Michael Thompson

From allisonportable at gmail.com  Fri Nov 22 13:01:51 2019
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 14:01:51 -0500
Subject: several items for sale and a note.
In-Reply-To: <CAH1BU=_xSOPgbMivzxSWc_yHUY+hkDnD7-R5FLrQavSTxw0Vfw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1574445600.1782.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <CAH1BU=_xSOPgbMivzxSWc_yHUY+hkDnD7-R5FLrQavSTxw0Vfw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <12642cdd-98eb-d0e8-2191-cd9e18a884f1@gmail.com>

Note:  we have some entity scraping the list(how is not determined).
If I post I find that I get spam for about a week after until I post
again.  Most of the SPAM is scamware.  It maybe someone with a virus
on their system or a account that is for a bogus user.  Take from that
what you may.


Now stuff for sale:
The rules are, none for free, make a reasonable offer.  PICKUP only
eastern MA in a reasonable amount of time.  I WILL NOT PACK OR SHIP,
too heavy, damage too likely.  Make offers offline, anything no
interest will be disposed of.


First item:
  Vt180, complete sans wart box, operating, and with second set of RX180
  drives.  I will not break this up. I have some disks for it as well.
  Terminal box is 8 or better and not too yellow.

Second item:
  California Computer Systems (CCS) S100, with z80 CPU, 64K ram,
  Multi-serial IO Floppy disk controller and manuals.

  System is operational save for no disk drives as I am keeping
  the set I have.  However I have two half height loose drives
  of unknown status.

Future offers when I'm done with them include:
  Two PDP11 (11/23 series in BA-11 series boxes)
  Northstar Horizon S100 MDS-A controller, Z80, memory,
  with at least 1 floppy and working.


Allison

From tom at figureeightbrewing.com  Fri Nov 22 13:09:02 2019
From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 13:09:02 -0600
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
In-Reply-To: <DA29CB79-3F03-43C7-AC10-CE7F5C017BB8@comcast.net>
References: <20191122021454.7714118C080@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <19628362-7174-6595-7694-378eabeeb96c@alembic.crystel.com>
 <DA29CB79-3F03-43C7-AC10-CE7F5C017BB8@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4f8f00c4-011b-a96f-b4e5-3146112c5c7c@figureeightbrewing.com>

On 11/22/19 1:01 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
>
>> On Nov 21, 2019, at 10:13 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> I *think* (and this is putting the wayback hat on) that the RH11 originally was the controller for the RS03 and RS04 fixed head disk drives. The dual Unibus was so you could put them on Unibus A for talking to the 11/45's main bus with data transfers ripping across Unibus B directly to the dual-ported memory on the 45.
>>
>> Thus one of the Unibus ports didn't need to worry about arbitration (it was the only thing on the bus) and could stream data from the (very quick) RS03/04's right into memory for the ultimate swap device.
> Nice swap device, certainly.  But the RS04 isn't actually all that fast.  The book says 4 microseconds per word, compare that with the RP04 at 2.5 microseconds per word.  I remember we got an RP04 on our college 11/45 in 1974 or early 1975, but that one still had an RF11 swapping disk.  So it's not clear to me which came first.
But being a fixed head drive, the RS04 has no seek latency, so probably faster overall than a moving
head drive.

We had an RS04 swap device on our 11/70 at Purdue Electrical Engineering Network running BSD Unix.
It had been running for so long that the disk/head lubricant had worn away. If it was ever spun
down, it would have to be hand spun to overcome the initial friction, but then it was fine.

--tom
>> The 2020 takes advanatge of this with the dual unibus adapter, one talks to the chatty stuff like the DZ11's, the other has no arbitration issues as it sucks data down from the faster spinning RM03s without timeouts.
> RH11 machines could use the RM02 but not RM03; that one was supported only on the 11/70 because of its speed.  But it's way faster than these other disks we mentioned.  And then there was the RP07, which was never officially supported on any PDP11 even though it did work fine on an 11/70; it was the "super large" disk on the main RSTS/E development system.
>
>> One of my long term questions has been to see if a 2020 could talk to a RM80. It should be possible as the Massbus personality module talks to the bus at 3600 RPM just like the RM03, and they did manage to get the R80 to talk to the 11/730 with a dedicated memory channel connection (though maybe the R80 was heavily interleaved)
> If it can handle an RM03, then I'd expect an RM80 should work also since it transfers at the same speed.
>
> 	paul
>
>


From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Fri Nov 22 14:42:25 2019
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 20:42:25 +0000
Subject: several items for sale and a note.
In-Reply-To: <12642cdd-98eb-d0e8-2191-cd9e18a884f1@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1574445600.1782.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <CAH1BU=_xSOPgbMivzxSWc_yHUY+hkDnD7-R5FLrQavSTxw0Vfw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <12642cdd-98eb-d0e8-2191-cd9e18a884f1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AM0PR09MB37804BC4C1E7BA8E21CB115A86490@AM0PR09MB3780.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>



Van: allison via cctech<mailto:cctech at classiccmp.org>
Verzonden: vrijdag 22 november 2019 20:01
Aan: cctech at classiccmp.org<mailto:cctech at classiccmp.org>
Onderwerp: several items for sale and a note.

Now stuff for sale:
The rules are, none for free, make a reasonable offer.  PICKUP only
eastern MA in a reasonable amount of time.  I WILL NOT PACK OR SHIP,
too heavy, damage too likely.  Make offers offline, anything no
interest will be disposed of.

First item:
  Vt180, complete sans wart box, operating, and with second set of RX180
  drives.  I will not break this up. I have some disks for it as well.
  Terminal box is 8 or better and not too yellow.

Allison


I hope the buyer (or maybe you Allison?) will take the time to beep
the floppy disk drive interface cable.
The floppy drive side has a DB-25 connector, the VT180 side has a
DC-37 connector. Not much to find about it on the internet,
See www.pdp-11.nl/vt180/vt180-info.html<http://www.pdp-11.nl/vt180/vt180-info.html>    I would love to get
confirmation that the home-made cable is correct ?

Thanks,
Henk


From allisonportable at gmail.com  Fri Nov 22 15:39:27 2019
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 16:39:27 -0500
Subject: several items for sale and a note.
In-Reply-To: <AM0PR09MB37804BC4C1E7BA8E21CB115A86490@AM0PR09MB3780.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>
References: <mailman.3.1574445600.1782.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <CAH1BU=_xSOPgbMivzxSWc_yHUY+hkDnD7-R5FLrQavSTxw0Vfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <12642cdd-98eb-d0e8-2191-cd9e18a884f1@gmail.com>
 <AM0PR09MB37804BC4C1E7BA8E21CB115A86490@AM0PR09MB3780.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <2f0c1b50-550a-cdf2-0ab3-c0fa9c4026bc@gmail.com>

I can't it's in the way.  Space and all are the reasons.

You can get the pin out for both ends from the manuals and the prints.
If you get it wrong things just don't work but no breakage.

On 11/22/19 3:42 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote:
> ?
> 
> ?
> 
> *Van: *allison via cctech <mailto:cctech at classiccmp.org>
> *Verzonden: *vrijdag 22 november 2019 20:01
> *Aan: *cctech at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctech at classiccmp.org>
> *Onderwerp: *several items for sale and a note.
> 
> ?
> 
> Now stuff for sale:
> The rules are, none for free, make a reasonable offer.? PICKUP only
> eastern MA in a reasonable amount of time.? I WILL NOT PACK OR SHIP,
> too heavy, damage too likely.? Make offers offline, anything no
> interest will be disposed of.
> 
> First item:
> ? Vt180, complete sans wart box, operating, and with second set of RX180
> ? drives.? I will not break this up. I have some disks for it as well.
> ? Terminal box is 8 or better and not too yellow.
> 
> Allison
> 
> ?
> 
> ?
> 
> I hope the buyer (or maybe you Allison?) will take the time to beep
> 
> the floppy disk drive interface cable.
> 
> The floppy drive side has a DB-25 connector, the VT180 side has a
> 
> DC-37 connector. Not much to find about it on the internet,
> 
> See www.pdp-11.nl/vt180/vt180-info.html
> <http://www.pdp-11.nl/vt180/vt180-info.html> ???I would love to get
> confirmation that the home-made cable is correct ?
> when I'm done with them
> ?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Henk
> 
> ?
> 


From spacewar at gmail.com  Fri Nov 22 16:05:42 2019
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 15:05:42 -0700
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
In-Reply-To: <20191122133857.C8BD818C080@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20191122133857.C8BD818C080@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTQEc66GruQLwziS2NrOw17cGD5k0=3VOq7gMDnGhx=MOg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 6:39 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> So I think all our questions are answerered (except for the [RH11]-AB/-C
> difference
> issue).
>

One version of the RH11 added a small FIFO (called a "silo" by DEC, IIRC)
in the data path. I don't recall which suffix that was, nor whether it was
the version used in the KS10.

Presumably the reason for the FIFO would be to help disks work reliably on
relatively "low-end" systems that can't wire the RH11's Unibus B to
dual-ported memory. Since the KS10 has separate UBAs for the disks and
tape, I wouldn't expect it to need the FIFO version of the RH11 unless
there were problems with latency arbitrating for the KS10 bus. I would
imagine that DEC gave the UBAs priority over the CPU.

From fritzm at fritzm.org  Fri Nov 22 16:52:48 2019
From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 14:52:48 -0800
Subject: Who changed the gravitational constant (Dec pdp11 stuff)
In-Reply-To: <7d2c0247-5d78-1820-d865-481f37c2bc3a@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <7d2c0247-5d78-1820-d865-481f37c2bc3a@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <06b8f415-7c5a-eb93-b1c3-505f1ab102e1@fritzm.org>


On 11/22/19 11:16 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
> https://i.imgur.com/7BwIwas.jpg

Ah man, I'm jealous of your VT52 roll-around stand -- wish I could find 
one for my VT52!

    --FritzM.

From allisonportable at gmail.com  Fri Nov 22 19:10:49 2019
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 20:10:49 -0500
Subject: Who changed the gravitational constant (Dec pdp11 stuff)
In-Reply-To: <4f1b4c74-02ce-f385-e6b3-3db252ada6d3@bitsavers.org>
References: <7d2c0247-5d78-1820-d865-481f37c2bc3a@alembic.crystel.com>
 <4f1b4c74-02ce-f385-e6b3-3db252ada6d3@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <973b8b41-28cf-8bd2-4c23-21ba5dafbf9d@gmail.com>

On 11/22/19 2:36 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
> On 11/22/19 11:16 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
>> That
>> could be a problem if I want to re-load Cobol 81 onto this RSTS/E system.
> 
> weren't RL01s usable in an RL02?
> 
> 

No for RL.  You, maybe thinking RX01/02 interchangeability.

From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Fri Nov 22 19:54:50 2019
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 20:54:50 -0500
Subject: Who changed the gravitational constant (Dec pdp11 stuff)
In-Reply-To: <4f1b4c74-02ce-f385-e6b3-3db252ada6d3@bitsavers.org>
References: <7d2c0247-5d78-1820-d865-481f37c2bc3a@alembic.crystel.com>
 <4f1b4c74-02ce-f385-e6b3-3db252ada6d3@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <4807c5cd-d888-4b80-5334-34e1fcc054c2@alembic.crystel.com>

Normally my answer would be "no". *However* there is mention that 
changing 3 jumpers on an RL02 will allow you to read an RL01 pack (not 
write).

http://www.pdp-11.nl/peripherals/disk/rl-info.html

So... Maybe. However right now I'm trying to get the disks up. It's been 
20 years, and my cables are not in the best of shape. One cable seems 
totally dead, as the RL02 flunks when connected to the controller (DRIVE 
0 and FAULT always on). With the second cable all lights are off and the 
drive spins up and goes ready, however as soon as I try to boot the 
drive goes to FAULT. If I remove the 0 drive selector and put in a 1, 
the fault goes out, however trying to boot DL1: gives the same error.

This happens on both drives with two different boot packs (old RSXM38 
images). So it is either the cable (possible as two pins were bent and 
needed to be straightened) or the controller (also a maybe, been 20 
years I might have another spare somewhere around here). I'll order some 
DeOXit, ohm out the first cable to see if it's bad, and try again next 
weekend.

Never dull. On the positive side I saved at least one set of RL02 rails. 
So there is that.

C

On 11/22/2019 2:36 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
> On 11/22/19 11:16 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
>> That
>> could be a problem if I want to re-load Cobol 81 onto this RSTS/E system.
> 
> weren't RL01s usable in an RL02?
> 
> 

From systems.glitch at gmail.com  Fri Nov 22 21:55:38 2019
From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 22:55:38 -0500
Subject: Who changed the gravitational constant (Dec pdp11 stuff)
In-Reply-To: <973b8b41-28cf-8bd2-4c23-21ba5dafbf9d@gmail.com>
References: <7d2c0247-5d78-1820-d865-481f37c2bc3a@alembic.crystel.com>
 <4f1b4c74-02ce-f385-e6b3-3db252ada6d3@bitsavers.org>
 <973b8b41-28cf-8bd2-4c23-21ba5dafbf9d@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA+dub+FAh4ENd9ZdWg5W+uv86NNRSgZN3VknoetinNLe9XmhA@mail.gmail.com>

I thought there was some documented method of mounting a RL01 pack
read-only in an RL02 drive?

Thanks,
Jonathan

On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 8:10 PM allison via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> On 11/22/19 2:36 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 11/22/19 11:16 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
> >> That
> >> could be a problem if I want to re-load Cobol 81 onto this RSTS/E
> system.
> >
> > weren't RL01s usable in an RL02?
> >
> >
>
> No for RL.  You, maybe thinking RX01/02 interchangeability.
>

From guykd at optusnet.com.au  Fri Nov 22 23:06:23 2019
From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2019 16:06:23 +1100
Subject: Disposing: IBM Microchannel cards, for free
In-Reply-To: <AM0PR09MB37804BC4C1E7BA8E21CB115A86490@AM0PR09MB3780.eurpr
 d09.prod.outlook.com>
References: <12642cdd-98eb-d0e8-2191-cd9e18a884f1@gmail.com>
 <mailman.3.1574445600.1782.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <CAH1BU=_xSOPgbMivzxSWc_yHUY+hkDnD7-R5FLrQavSTxw0Vfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <12642cdd-98eb-d0e8-2191-cd9e18a884f1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20191123160623.011b9ec0@mail.optusnet.com.au>

I'm clearing out some old stuff. These are free (but you pay postage) if anyone wants them.
Catch: they are in Sydney Australia.

---------------------------

Digital Communications Associates Inc. Circa 1985
IRMAlink  IRMA 2  3270 Micro-to-Mainframe communications
IRMA 2 supplies the personal computer with direct coaxial connection
to an IBM 3174, 3274, 3276 or Integral Terminal Controller with Type A adapters.

Includes two completes sets, each: card + documentation + 3 x 3.5" disks with code and drivers.
Not in original packing.

See http://everist.org/spacejunk/sell/irma.htm

---------------------------

DigiBoard MC/8e Intelligent Async serial communications board (8 ports) Circa 1993
One microchannel card plus octopus cable and manuals. Some manuals still in sealed envelopes.

In original packing

See http://everist.org/spacejunk/sell/mc8e.htm

---------------------------

Guy


From derschjo at gmail.com  Fri Nov 22 23:23:05 2019
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 21:23:05 -0800
Subject: ISO: I/O panel for Wangco ST-2222 (or similar) drive
Message-ID: <CADBZjLbKbOW5NoN=YDHSojOLyMkGBvXGBJh7PgzX8icckd07Fw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all --

Picked up a mostly complete Wangco ST-2222 drive recently.  This is a
removable pack drive with one fixed platter, nominally Diablo 30 / RK05
compatible in terms of interface, but uses IBM 5540-style packs.  It's in
good condition and I'd like to restore it and see if I can interface it to
an RK11.

The part I'm missing is the I/O panel -- on this particular model there was
a breakout board that bolted to the rear of the rack the drive was mounted
in (rather than being mounted to the back of the drive), and it contained
some buffers, level shifters, drive select logic, and the actual interface
connectors.  There were two variants of this -- 301062 was the Diablo 30/31
style (with the big Winchester blocks) and 301291 had a more generic
interface with what looks like centronics-style connectors.  (You can see
assembly drawings of them in the schematic here:
http://bitsavers.org/pdf/wangco/301462-002_Super_Series_Magnetic_Disk_Operation_and_Maintenance_Vol_2_Jun79.pdf,
pages 55 and 69).

I figure it's a long shot, but does anyone have one of these two boards
going spare, or have a similar drive (others in the ST family share the
same panel, it seems) that is in unrestorable/parts-donor condition they
could steal one from?

Thanks,
Josh

From j_hoppe at t-online.de  Fri Nov 22 16:30:54 2019
From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 23:30:54 +0100
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
Message-ID: <2f9d2379-c243-80b9-1c5c-33019b32d64e@t-online.de>

>2. When doing 18bit on UNIBUS-A we put all kind of signal levels
>on parity lines PA,PB = DATA<16:17>.
>Won't the KS10 CPU interpret these as real BUS parity errors generated
>by some UNIBUS-A device?

I asked nonsense here: if UNIBUS-A is 18bit too, no parity will be evaluted of course.

Joerg


From useddec at gmail.com  Sat Nov 23 02:36:30 2019
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2019 02:36:30 -0600
Subject: ISO: I/O panel for Wangco ST-2222 (or similar) drive
In-Reply-To: <CADBZjLbKbOW5NoN=YDHSojOLyMkGBvXGBJh7PgzX8icckd07Fw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADBZjLbKbOW5NoN=YDHSojOLyMkGBvXGBJh7PgzX8icckd07Fw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuNq2nXTPSo1nbAnijEFYQcuO15_QTEqQK6YgdmoLNyqfA@mail.gmail.com>

I thought the Diablo drives worked on the RK11-C, but not the RK11-D. Will
they work on both?

On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 11:23 PM Josh Dersch via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Hi all --
>
> Picked up a mostly complete Wangco ST-2222 drive recently.  This is a
> removable pack drive with one fixed platter, nominally Diablo 30 / RK05
> compatible in terms of interface, but uses IBM 5540-style packs.  It's in
> good condition and I'd like to restore it and see if I can interface it to
> an RK11.
>
> The part I'm missing is the I/O panel -- on this particular model there was
> a breakout board that bolted to the rear of the rack the drive was mounted
> in (rather than being mounted to the back of the drive), and it contained
> some buffers, level shifters, drive select logic, and the actual interface
> connectors.  There were two variants of this -- 301062 was the Diablo 30/31
> style (with the big Winchester blocks) and 301291 had a more generic
> interface with what looks like centronics-style connectors.  (You can see
> assembly drawings of them in the schematic here:
>
> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/wangco/301462-002_Super_Series_Magnetic_Disk_Operation_and_Maintenance_Vol_2_Jun79.pdf
> ,
> pages 55 and 69).
>
> I figure it's a long shot, but does anyone have one of these two boards
> going spare, or have a similar drive (others in the ST family share the
> same panel, it seems) that is in unrestorable/parts-donor condition they
> could steal one from?
>
> Thanks,
> Josh
>

From useddec at gmail.com  Sat Nov 23 02:41:45 2019
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2019 02:41:45 -0600
Subject: Who changed the gravitational constant (Dec pdp11 stuff)
In-Reply-To: <4807c5cd-d888-4b80-5334-34e1fcc054c2@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <7d2c0247-5d78-1820-d865-481f37c2bc3a@alembic.crystel.com>
 <4f1b4c74-02ce-f385-e6b3-3db252ada6d3@bitsavers.org>
 <4807c5cd-d888-4b80-5334-34e1fcc054c2@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuNyTtX5c=5papNg6Qr_thTkBMZ7Gx1tTcy5O9PP+JTysA@mail.gmail.com>

I seem to recall that when the ribbon cable is in backwards, the fault
light comes on.

Paul

On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 7:55 PM Chris Zach via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> Normally my answer would be "no". *However* there is mention that
> changing 3 jumpers on an RL02 will allow you to read an RL01 pack (not
> write).
>
> http://www.pdp-11.nl/peripherals/disk/rl-info.html
>
> So... Maybe. However right now I'm trying to get the disks up. It's been
> 20 years, and my cables are not in the best of shape. One cable seems
> totally dead, as the RL02 flunks when connected to the controller (DRIVE
> 0 and FAULT always on). With the second cable all lights are off and the
> drive spins up and goes ready, however as soon as I try to boot the
> drive goes to FAULT. If I remove the 0 drive selector and put in a 1,
> the fault goes out, however trying to boot DL1: gives the same error.
>
> This happens on both drives with two different boot packs (old RSXM38
> images). So it is either the cable (possible as two pins were bent and
> needed to be straightened) or the controller (also a maybe, been 20
> years I might have another spare somewhere around here). I'll order some
> DeOXit, ohm out the first cable to see if it's bad, and try again next
> weekend.
>
> Never dull. On the positive side I saved at least one set of RL02 rails.
> So there is that.
>
> C
>
> On 11/22/2019 2:36 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 11/22/19 11:16 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
> >> That
> >> could be a problem if I want to re-load Cobol 81 onto this RSTS/E
> system.
> >
> > weren't RL01s usable in an RL02?
> >
> >
>

From matt at 9track.net  Sat Nov 23 04:30:21 2019
From: matt at 9track.net (Matt Burke)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2019 10:30:21 +0000
Subject: Disposing: IBM Microchannel cards, for free
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20191123160623.011b9ec0@mail.optusnet.com.au>
References: <12642cdd-98eb-d0e8-2191-cd9e18a884f1@gmail.com>
 <mailman.3.1574445600.1782.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <CAH1BU=_xSOPgbMivzxSWc_yHUY+hkDnD7-R5FLrQavSTxw0Vfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <12642cdd-98eb-d0e8-2191-cd9e18a884f1@gmail.com>
 <3.0.6.32.20191123160623.011b9ec0@mail.optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <d79eb3d3-77b1-cd37-a210-d1c951f174fb@9track.net>

Hi Guy,

I'm interested in the IRMAlink cards, particularly the software and
documentation as I already have an ISA IRMAlink card and there doesn't
seem to be any copies online.

I'm located in the UK so postage will probably be fairly expensive. Are
you willing to ship the items here?

Regards,

Matt


On 23/11/2019 05:06, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote:
> I'm clearing out some old stuff. These are free (but you pay postage) if anyone wants them.
> Catch: they are in Sydney Australia.
>
> ---------------------------
>
> Digital Communications Associates Inc. Circa 1985
> IRMAlink  IRMA 2  3270 Micro-to-Mainframe communications
> IRMA 2 supplies the personal computer with direct coaxial connection
> to an IBM 3174, 3274, 3276 or Integral Terminal Controller with Type A adapters.
>
> Includes two completes sets, each: card + documentation + 3 x 3.5" disks with code and drivers.
> Not in original packing.
>
> See http://everist.org/spacejunk/sell/irma.htm
>
> ---------------------------
>
> DigiBoard MC/8e Intelligent Async serial communications board (8 ports) Circa 1993
> One microchannel card plus octopus cable and manuals. Some manuals still in sealed envelopes.
>
> In original packing
>
> See http://everist.org/spacejunk/sell/mc8e.htm
>
> ---------------------------
>
> Guy
>


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Sat Nov 23 05:38:01 2019
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2019 11:38:01 -0000
Subject: Disposing: IBM Microchannel cards, for free
In-Reply-To: <d79eb3d3-77b1-cd37-a210-d1c951f174fb@9track.net>
References: <12642cdd-98eb-d0e8-2191-cd9e18a884f1@gmail.com>
 <mailman.3.1574445600.1782.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <CAH1BU=_xSOPgbMivzxSWc_yHUY+hkDnD7-R5FLrQavSTxw0Vfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <12642cdd-98eb-d0e8-2191-cd9e18a884f1@gmail.com>
 <3.0.6.32.20191123160623.011b9ec0@mail.optusnet.com.au>
 <d79eb3d3-77b1-cd37-a210-d1c951f174fb@9track.net>
Message-ID: <036701d5a1f2$768d0a90$63a71fb0$@gmail.com>

Matt,
 Would combined postage be cheaper? I would like a set too but the cost seemed horrid
Dave

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Matt Burke via
> cctalk
> Sent: 23 November 2019 10:30
> To: Guy Dunphy via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Disposing: IBM Microchannel cards, for free
> 
> Hi Guy,
> 
> I'm interested in the IRMAlink cards, particularly the software and
> documentation as I already have an ISA IRMAlink card and there doesn't seem
> to be any copies online.
> 
> I'm located in the UK so postage will probably be fairly expensive. Are you
> willing to ship the items here?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Matt
> 
> 
> On 23/11/2019 05:06, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote:
> > I'm clearing out some old stuff. These are free (but you pay postage) if
> anyone wants them.
> > Catch: they are in Sydney Australia.
> >
> > ---------------------------
> >
> > Digital Communications Associates Inc. Circa 1985 IRMAlink  IRMA 2
> > 3270 Micro-to-Mainframe communications IRMA 2 supplies the personal
> > computer with direct coaxial connection to an IBM 3174, 3274, 3276 or
> > Integral Terminal Controller with Type A adapters.
> >
> > Includes two completes sets, each: card + documentation + 3 x 3.5" disks with
> code and drivers.
> > Not in original packing.
> >
> > See http://everist.org/spacejunk/sell/irma.htm
> >
> > ---------------------------
> >
> > DigiBoard MC/8e Intelligent Async serial communications board (8
> > ports) Circa 1993 One microchannel card plus octopus cable and manuals.
> Some manuals still in sealed envelopes.
> >
> > In original packing
> >
> > See http://everist.org/spacejunk/sell/mc8e.htm
> >
> > ---------------------------
> >
> > Guy
> >



From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Sat Nov 23 08:14:29 2019
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2019 09:14:29 -0500
Subject: Who changed the gravitational constant (Dec pdp11 stuff)
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuNyTtX5c=5papNg6Qr_thTkBMZ7Gx1tTcy5O9PP+JTysA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7d2c0247-5d78-1820-d865-481f37c2bc3a@alembic.crystel.com>
 <4f1b4c74-02ce-f385-e6b3-3db252ada6d3@bitsavers.org>
 <4807c5cd-d888-4b80-5334-34e1fcc054c2@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CACwhfuNyTtX5c=5papNg6Qr_thTkBMZ7Gx1tTcy5O9PP+JTysA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d21ce81e-b250-dfa3-f679-a9d571d836d8@alembic.crystel.com>

> I seem to recall that when the ribbon cable is in backwards, the fault 
> light comes on.

True. First cable faults hard (READY/FAULT on) no matter what. Second 
cable would turn off the Fault light and allow spinup (right direction) 
and ready. However when I tried to boot the drive went fault.

Dug out a third (softer, less rigid) cable, same effect. Then I 
remembered I bought the controller working on Ebay some 25 years ago, so 
I went through my pile to find the original controller. Plugged that in...

Drive booted to RSX11M+ 4.2. Great, I have a blown board and a good 
older controller. Enough to get going....

During all of this I had a minor setback: The MSV11-QC board (the one 
with 4mb of memory on it stock) failed startup diagnostics with what 
looks like a stuck bit. Used an 11/23+ to verify this and find the 
memory region, now I need engineering schematics for that board so I can 
replace one of the 41256 memory chips. On the positive side it looks 
like a pretty obvious stuck bit, just need to know which chip is at that 
address and memory location....

Fortunately I had a Clearmation (I think) backup memory board that has 
only 2Mb of memory. Enough to get going at least...

Never dull. At least I can boot RL02's (will check more cables and such 
today) which means I can get RSX11M up and figure out what went wrong 
with my Hitachi ESDI disk (it's on an MTI controller which is *super 
fast). That's the gold standard, I think it's a 300mb disk in two 
partitions. One has RT11 on it (boots, limited drivers), the other has 
RSX11M 4.0 with all my code, games, programming languages, and so forth. 
When I try to boot that it faults to ODT, which could be a disk read 
failure or possibly something wrong with the monitor. RSX11M 4.0 was 
exceptionally finnicky when it came to devices and maybe something is 
missing and causing it to blow up....

C

> 
> Paul
> 
> On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 7:55 PM Chris Zach via cctalk 
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
> 
>     Normally my answer would be "no". *However* there is mention that
>     changing 3 jumpers on an RL02 will allow you to read an RL01 pack (not
>     write).
> 
>     http://www.pdp-11.nl/peripherals/disk/rl-info.html
> 
>     So... Maybe. However right now I'm trying to get the disks up. It's
>     been
>     20 years, and my cables are not in the best of shape. One cable seems
>     totally dead, as the RL02 flunks when connected to the controller
>     (DRIVE
>     0 and FAULT always on). With the second cable all lights are off and
>     the
>     drive spins up and goes ready, however as soon as I try to boot the
>     drive goes to FAULT. If I remove the 0 drive selector and put in a 1,
>     the fault goes out, however trying to boot DL1: gives the same error.
> 
>     This happens on both drives with two different boot packs (old RSXM38
>     images). So it is either the cable (possible as two pins were bent and
>     needed to be straightened) or the controller (also a maybe, been 20
>     years I might have another spare somewhere around here). I'll order
>     some
>     DeOXit, ohm out the first cable to see if it's bad, and try again next
>     weekend.
> 
>     Never dull. On the positive side I saved at least one set of RL02
>     rails.
>     So there is that.
> 
>     C
> 
>     On 11/22/2019 2:36 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
>      >
>      >
>      > On 11/22/19 11:16 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
>      >> That
>      >> could be a problem if I want to re-load Cobol 81 onto this
>     RSTS/E system.
>      >
>      > weren't RL01s usable in an RL02?
>      >
>      >
> 

From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Sat Nov 23 08:18:52 2019
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2019 09:18:52 -0500
Subject: Who changed the gravitational constant (Dec pdp11 stuff)
In-Reply-To: <06b8f415-7c5a-eb93-b1c3-505f1ab102e1@fritzm.org>
References: <7d2c0247-5d78-1820-d865-481f37c2bc3a@alembic.crystel.com>
 <06b8f415-7c5a-eb93-b1c3-505f1ab102e1@fritzm.org>
Message-ID: <23ad5e56-c45a-27ff-5f5d-7351d6b726b5@alembic.crystel.com>

Yeah, it's kind of cool but takes up an insane amount of space. For 
whatever reason I kept it through the decades and it holds the VT52 
perfectly.

Now I'm wondering if it's worth fixing the LS120 that's out in the shed. 
I sold an LA36 about a year or three ago, the LS120 was a weird duck: 
It's an LA36 body with the ability to go 300 and 1200 baud with 120 CPS 
printing. It does *not* have the logic of an LA120, the boards are more 
LA36 and it does not print bi-directionally. Just really moves the old 
head *fast* and probably has a bigger buffer to catch up during a 
carriage return.

Maybe next year.

On 11/22/2019 5:52 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote:
> 
> On 11/22/19 11:16 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
>> https://i.imgur.com/7BwIwas.jpg
> 
> Ah man, I'm jealous of your VT52 roll-around stand -- wish I could find 
> one for my VT52!
> 
>  ?? --FritzM.

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sat Nov 23 09:48:53 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2019 10:48:53 -0500 (EST)
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
Message-ID: <20191123154853.1DBA618C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: J?rg Hoppe

    > UniBone can be used in UNIBUS-A SPC slots in 18 bit mode without any
    > extra adapters? And can emulate an RH11-C there

As far as I can see, yes.

    > even if the RH11 is supposed to run in UNIBUS B?

Well, all RH11's have both UNIBUS A and UNIBUS B; under program control, one
can select either A or B to be the one where the DMA from the RH11 happens.
(Access to the registers in the RH11 is only possible via UNIBUS A, and
interrupts from it can only happen on A.) I'm not sure exactly what your
question is, but I hope that answers it! :-)

    > We've seen early SPC slots (PDP-11/40, '45) without NPG wired,
    > 'cause SPC was apparently originally meant for "Small" peripherals
    > without DMA. Is KS10 UNIBUS-A wired to be DMA capable?

Good question! Well, the RH11 is designed so that it can other devices
'downstream' from it, on both UNIBI. So that says that NPG is sent _through_
the RH11 on both UNIBI - but doesn't speak to the SPC slots. For that, one
needs to look at the backplane wire list - which isn't in the drawings! :-(
However, I happen to have an RH11-AB backplane, and it has the AA1-AB2 jumpers
for NPG on those three slots.

Same thing for interrupts - both UNIBI are wired to for them (although the
grant lines for UNIBUS B don't go into the RH11 cards, they are only on
the RH11 backplane).

	Noel

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sat Nov 23 10:31:20 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2019 11:31:20 -0500 (EST)
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
Message-ID: <20191123163120.84DE218C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>


    > From: Eric Smith

    > One version of the RH11 added a small FIFO (called a "silo" by DEC,
    > IIRC) in the data path. I don't recall which suffix that was, nor
    > whether it was the version used in the KS10.

Well, the -AB has the FIFO, according to the Revision J prints (September
1993). It's on the M7294 card (see drawings DBCC/D).

Interestingly, I have prints for an RH11-B! That appears to differ by
having an M7295-YA; that differs from the M7295 by having a hand ECO
(i.e. same etch), part of which can been seen in the lower left corner
of drawing BCTB - the two one-shots.

As to the RH11-C, I looked, and we do have the KS10 prints (MP00540,
mis-labelled "KS10_MaintSch" :-), and it does include RH11 prints. Alas,
those show an M7294, not the claimed M9294-YA. :-( The RH11 sheets are also
out of order (some are at the very back of the pack), and DBCD seems to be
missing entirely. They are revision "L", and the RH11-BA prints are revision
"H", FWLTW.

	Noel

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sat Nov 23 10:34:39 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2019 11:34:39 -0500 (EST)
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
Message-ID: <20191123163439.D378918C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > the Revision J prints (September 1993).

Ooops, typo: '1973'.

       Noel

From aek at bitsavers.org  Sat Nov 23 13:00:09 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2019 11:00:09 -0800
Subject: TurboDOS for S-100, IMS or L/F Technologies
In-Reply-To: <1558945456.560389.1561774659752@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1994260350.1498101.1560272129120.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1994260350.1498101.1560272129120@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1558945456.560389.1561774659752@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <be74a9b9-6d09-36ac-f3bd-47b088a13b44@bitsavers.org>

did anything more ever turn up?
I'd like to try getting a 16-bit 1.43 running, there is a set of disks on ebay, but the seller has blocked me
https://www.ebay.com/itm/193098921854

On 6/28/19 7:17 PM, Jonathan Haddox via cctalk wrote:
>  Just sending a thanks for the replies from various folks on this list. I was able to recover a partial set of operating system files for my IMS/LF-Technologies S-100 machine from members who dug deep into their archives. It's booting now to a basic single-user TurboDOS 1.4 which proves that my hardware is sound. In order to get what I really want out of this machine, I still need to source a full set of TurboDOS 1.4 drivers (.REL files) from IMS L/F Tech distribution diskettes. I'll be around if they ever turn up.
> 
> Thank You!
> 
> IMS A645 Z-80 Processor
> IMS A631 serial/parallel I/O
> IMS A930 Floppy controller
> IMS A465 64K RAM
> IMS 1100 Winchester Hard disk controller
> IMS 862 User Processor (Z80)
> IMS 1081 User Processor (186)
> IMS 1120 Tape Controller     On Tuesday, June 11, 2019, 11:55:29 AM CDT, Jonathan Haddox <new_castle_j at yahoo.com> wrote:  
>  
>  I'm restoring an IMS - L/F Technologies S-100 Bus computer.? I've got all the pieces except for the Operating System.? I'm hoping that someone here may have a disk stashed away.? From the literature I have read, I would need TurboDOS version 1.40a or 1.41c from IMS or L/F Technologies.? I've seen TurboDOS 1.3 versions out in the wild from IMS, but the 1.4 version was greatly enhanced and offered better compatibility with my specific hardware.? I'd be much obliged if anyone can help.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jonathan
> new_castle_j? at yahoo  
> 


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sat Nov 23 14:14:54 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2019 15:14:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Who changed the gravitational constant (Dec pdp11 stuff)
Message-ID: <20191123201454.A90FA18C080@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Chris Zach

    > The MSV11-QC board ... failed startup diagnostics with what looks like
    > a stuck bit. .. now I need engineering schematics for that board so I
    > can replace one of the 41256 memory chips. On the positive side it looks like
    > a pretty obvious stuck bit, just need to know which chip is at that
    > address and memory location....

I suspect you're out of luck on the prints, I think all there is is the
User Manual. Not to worry, it should be pretty easy to create a bit->chip
table, I did that for the MSV11-J:

  https://gunkies.org/wiki/MSV11-J_QBUS_memory#Technical_information

when I needed to repair one; it should be pretty easy to duplicate the
process for the -Q.

I did it with a 2-instruction scope loop, doing a word write to a given
location, floating a '1' bit along a word of '0's, looking at the 'data in'
pin on the DRAM chips. I see the -Q has a 17x8 array of DRAMs, so 16 bits of
data and a parity bit (odd chip out); so in some ways even easier than the -J
(which had ECC). 8 banks, but with a little luck they're in some sort of
logical order.

I have a -QA, of the later etch rev, which is the same etch as your -QC;
so I can help with the mapping process, if you need it; let me know.

	Noel

From radioengr at gmail.com  Sat Nov 23 14:15:01 2019
From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2019 13:15:01 -0700
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTQEc66GruQLwziS2NrOw17cGD5k0=3VOq7gMDnGhx=MOg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20191122133857.C8BD818C080@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAFrGgTQEc66GruQLwziS2NrOw17cGD5k0=3VOq7gMDnGhx=MOg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1f86e411-5b30-50e4-73b5-ee8b7d13b03b@gmail.com>

On 11/22/2019 3:05 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote:
> One version of the RH11 added a small FIFO (called a "silo" by DEC, IIRC)
> in the data path. I don't recall which suffix that was, nor whether it was
> the version used in the KS10.

Your memory is correct.  The RH11C was the buffered version of the RH11 
and was used in the KS10.

Rob.

From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Sat Nov 23 14:55:48 2019
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2019 21:55:48 +0100
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
In-Reply-To: <554C3409-D596-489C-AB8F-961BA10566D7@lunar-tokyo.net>
References: <825c8a67-ae5c-f93b-9b73-b993787db229@t-online.de>
 <4A3363C9-6B82-4C0C-8F81-DEDC601BCD05@lunar-tokyo.net>
 <63727e39-257d-9334-a775-607ea78543f4@alembic.crystel.com>
 <1A4F53CD-CBE8-465D-A38C-5C44C804F640@lunar-tokyo.net>
 <CADBZjLbM4Uj3+qn1par7M9ZFi4kFQz2EYinu2RTsPxBheAYUwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8292743a-f485-4ad1-2bce-d6e513b0ed5b@alembic.crystel.com>
 <CADBZjLaxAVKm=yqucwrwSWFTTAOucxTSt2Li=s+TgU75tT3wLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CDF7F94D-5005-4C3C-BD03-533BEA67E900@lunar-tokyo.net>
 <de609991-4c16-35cc-6986-b2b6d6ddb751@alembic.crystel.com>
 <554C3409-D596-489C-AB8F-961BA10566D7@lunar-tokyo.net>
Message-ID: <20191123205548.dnmdxqibjhljggqs@Update.UU.SE>

This thread makes me very happy.

I have a KS10 that I'm working on (quite slowly). The PSU is checked out 
and working. Then console seems to work, I can deposit/examine to CRAM 
and RAM.

Next step will be to load micro code and I've been mentally preparing to 
tackle an RH11 emulator for the Unibone.

I'll buy one from Joerg as soon as the second batch is ready and me and 
my KS10 will happily be guinea pigs.

And if I can, I'll help with development.

Regards,
Pontus.

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sat Nov 23 15:10:07 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2019 16:10:07 -0500 (EST)
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
Message-ID: <20191123211007.8C8AF18C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Rob Doyle

    > Your memory is correct. The RH11C was the buffered version of the RH11

Umm, both the -AB and -B have FIFOs - confirmed from the prints. (I have
an M7294 if we want to confirm that the prints aren't confused.) Now,
maybe the -C has a _bigger_ FIFO (e.g. large enough to hold a complete
sector), I could definitely see that.

What's your source - I'd like to study/cite it? The only KS10 prints I can
find don't show the RP11-C?

	Noel

From radioengr at gmail.com  Sat Nov 23 21:05:32 2019
From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2019 20:05:32 -0700
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
In-Reply-To: <20191123211007.8C8AF18C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20191123211007.8C8AF18C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <8e5c1261-b64f-9272-6d40-305a19e2d99a@gmail.com>

On 11/23/2019 2:10 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
>> From: Rob Doyle
> 
>> Your memory is correct. The RH11C was the buffered version of the
>> RH11
> 
> Umm, both the -AB and -B have FIFOs - confirmed from the prints. (I
> have an M7294 if we want to confirm that the prints aren't confused.)
> Now, maybe the -C has a _bigger_ FIFO (e.g. large enough to hold a
> complete sector), I could definitely see that.
> 
> What's your source - I'd like to study/cite it? The only KS10 prints
> I can find don't show the RP11-C?
> 
> Noel
> 

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/unibus/RH11-C_Engineering_Drawings.pdf

Well.  I think you right about that.   I compared the M7294 in the -AB
to the M7294-YA in the -C and they have the same size FIFOs.

Apologies.  I think I was told that incorrectly.

However there is plenty of DEC documentation that mentions that the
RH11C has a "bus hog" mode for the KS10 disks so that the Unibus can do
back-to-back 18-bit transactions.

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp10/KS10/ksrefRev2.pdf

Rob.



From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sat Nov 23 22:19:41 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2019 23:19:41 -0500 (EST)
Subject: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
Message-ID: <20191124041941.5B4F218C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Rob Doyle

    > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/unibus/RH11-C_Engineering_Drawings.pdf

Oooh, thanks ever so much. Not sure how I missed that when I looked on
BitSavers for RH11 stuff! Very illuminating - eventually! The M7294-YA seems
to be a manual ECO to the M7294; there's a detailed rework list on page 6 of
the PDF.

I'm still trying to work out what the changes do. E66 is a 'component
carrier' header, so it seems like in part the ECO adds a bunch of
option-controlling jumpers there (see pg. 2 for a table of what they do).

The main thing, though, seems to be the addition of E22, a 74191 binary
up/down counter, on page DBCA (pg 10 of the PDF). It seems to modify the
operation of 'Bus Hog' mode - maybe to do 16-cycle bursts? (All the
bit inputs and outputs are unused; only the Max/Min output - pin 12 -
is connected to anything.)

That would make sense; with UNIBUS A and B tied together, the original Bus
Hog (below) would lock out the CPU from the RH11 until the end of the
transfer. Actually, though, even without the cross-connect, having
the RH11 going flat out Bus Hog might lock out the CPU from the _KS10
memory_...

    > However there is plenty of DEC documentation that mentions that the
    > RH11C has a "bus hog" mode for the KS10 disks so that the Unibus can do
    > back-to-back 18-bit transactions.

The RH11-AB has Bus Hog too; see Section 4.12.10, "BUS HOG Mode", pg. 4-22
(59 of the PDF) in "RH11-AB Option Description" for details; it "hold[s] the
Unibus ... until the required number of words have been transferred".

	Noel

From joezatarski at gmail.com  Sun Nov 24 00:28:55 2019
From: joezatarski at gmail.com (Joseph Zatarski)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2019 00:28:55 -0600
Subject: DEC KA650 VAX memory troubleshooting
In-Reply-To: <CAL2F0+pZM7G=Qan4CjpxLAW4uoYKqG-OG9hvWOb79NcJiah_Jg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL2F0+robXdWe6nxK-a8J-QgBVQWjfnyZke=GetNfF+VvwH9ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL2F0+pZM7G=Qan4CjpxLAW4uoYKqG-OG9hvWOb79NcJiah_Jg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5b3bb9fd-4ac8-93f2-af16-1dd13f7ad18e@gmail.com>

Well, I finally got around to posting this on the CHWiki, in case 
anybody was curious about this.

https://gunkies.org/wiki/DEC_KA650_Memory_Subsystem

On 6/17/19 7:56 PM, Joe Zatarski wrote:
> OK, so where should a thing like this go: https://pastebin.com/taQwaTV6
> 
> Anybody got a decent place to upload that? it's my notes on the 
> MS650-AA, and more generally the KA650 CMCTL memory subsystem.
> 
> Includes my theory of operation of the CMCTL, the organization of 
> memory, the ECC equations (kinda, the info is there to derive them), 
> explanations of the signals on the memory bus, and most importantly, a 
> list of which bits and RAM regions correspond to the 312 DRAMs on the board.
> 
> On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 8:33 PM Joe Zatarski <joezatarski at gmail.com 
> <mailto:joezatarski at gmail.com>> wrote:
>  >
>  > Hey Everyone,
>  >
>  > I just thought I'd share a video of how I'm going about 
> troubleshooting the bad DRAMs on my MS650 memory board.
>  >
>  > https://youtu.be/eDMhdAEFEgc
>  >
>  > I apologize for the shaky-cam, I don't have a tripod, and I needed to 
> do a lot of panning anyway.
>  >
>  > I will be sharing my notes on the MS650 once I have a chance to write 
> them up properly as well. I wasn't able to find a printset for the RAM 
> card itself, so I assume one doesn't exist in digital form yet. I have 
> documented what bit and memory range each DRAM on the card corresponds 
> to, which may help someone troubleshooting in the future
>  >
>  > Regards,
>  > Joe Zatarski

From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Sun Nov 24 08:35:15 2019
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2019 09:35:15 -0500
Subject: Who changed the gravitational constant (Dec pdp11 stuff) Status
 update: Things work!
In-Reply-To: <20191123201454.A90FA18C080@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20191123201454.A90FA18C080@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <b32b89be-98fc-b17e-049b-34ec50cafc1e@alembic.crystel.com>

Good news in the meantime: I did a fair bit of testing last night and I 
have a good terminator, 2 good cables, one good RLV12, and one good RL02.

The second RL02 was odd: It would spin up, come to ready with no 
problems. However when I tried to boot it would endlessly seek a few 
tracks in a loop and go no further. Odd. So to isolate the problem I 
pulled the controller board and lid from my working RL02, put it on the 
odd one, and sure enough the odd one works.

Went to the shed and found my spare RL02 controller board I bought on 
Ebay an eternity ago. Put it back in the odd drive (putting the good 
lid/controller back on the good drive), powered it up, and once again it 
works!

RL's are pretty solid little drives. Not much capacity, but after 
sitting for 20 years they fire right up and get to work without a lot of 
fuss...

So now I have two working RL02's. I'm going to spend some time today 
making a few backups of my RSX11M 4.2 install media (wonder if DSC is 
still on there), then think about doing a proper SYSGEN in the next few 
weeks. I'll have to put in the DZV11 so I can have some serial ports 
(and Sysgen is a pain in that you have devices and *that's it*) but if I 
can get something running here I should be able to remount the MTI ESDI 
disk and get some data back. We shall see....

Chris

On 11/23/2019 3:14 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
>      > From: Chris Zach
> 
>      > The MSV11-QC board ... failed startup diagnostics with what looks like
>      > a stuck bit. .. now I need engineering schematics for that board so I
>      > can replace one of the 41256 memory chips. On the positive side it looks like
>      > a pretty obvious stuck bit, just need to know which chip is at that
>      > address and memory location....
> 
> I suspect you're out of luck on the prints, I think all there is is the
> User Manual. Not to worry, it should be pretty easy to create a bit->chip
> table, I did that for the MSV11-J:
> 
>    https://gunkies.org/wiki/MSV11-J_QBUS_memory#Technical_information
> 
> when I needed to repair one; it should be pretty easy to duplicate the
> process for the -Q.
> 
> I did it with a 2-instruction scope loop, doing a word write to a given
> location, floating a '1' bit along a word of '0's, looking at the 'data in'
> pin on the DRAM chips. I see the -Q has a 17x8 array of DRAMs, so 16 bits of
> data and a parity bit (odd chip out); so in some ways even easier than the -J
> (which had ECC). 8 banks, but with a little luck they're in some sort of
> logical order.
> 
> I have a -QA, of the later etch rev, which is the same etch as your -QC;
> so I can help with the mapping process, if you need it; let me know.
> 
> 	Noel
> 

From w2hx at w2hx.com  Sun Nov 24 08:27:44 2019
From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2019 14:27:44 +0000
Subject: DEC KA650 VAX memory troubleshooting
In-Reply-To: <5b3bb9fd-4ac8-93f2-af16-1dd13f7ad18e@gmail.com>
References: <CAL2F0+robXdWe6nxK-a8J-QgBVQWjfnyZke=GetNfF+VvwH9ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL2F0+pZM7G=Qan4CjpxLAW4uoYKqG-OG9hvWOb79NcJiah_Jg@mail.gmail.com>,
 <5b3bb9fd-4ac8-93f2-af16-1dd13f7ad18e@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1574605665153.16196@w2hx.com>

Wow. Very nicely done! Which logic analyzer did you use to capture those displays?

73 Eugene W2HX
________________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Joseph Zatarski via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2019 1:28 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: DEC KA650 VAX memory troubleshooting

Well, I finally got around to posting this on the CHWiki, in case
anybody was curious about this.

https://gunkies.org/wiki/DEC_KA650_Memory_Subsystem

On 6/17/19 7:56 PM, Joe Zatarski wrote:
> OK, so where should a thing like this go: https://pastebin.com/taQwaTV6
>
> Anybody got a decent place to upload that? it's my notes on the
> MS650-AA, and more generally the KA650 CMCTL memory subsystem.
>
> Includes my theory of operation of the CMCTL, the organization of
> memory, the ECC equations (kinda, the info is there to derive them),
> explanations of the signals on the memory bus, and most importantly, a
> list of which bits and RAM regions correspond to the 312 DRAMs on the board.
>
> On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 8:33 PM Joe Zatarski <joezatarski at gmail.com
> <mailto:joezatarski at gmail.com>> wrote:
>  >
>  > Hey Everyone,
>  >
>  > I just thought I'd share a video of how I'm going about
> troubleshooting the bad DRAMs on my MS650 memory board.
>  >
>  > https://youtu.be/eDMhdAEFEgc
>  >
>  > I apologize for the shaky-cam, I don't have a tripod, and I needed to
> do a lot of panning anyway.
>  >
>  > I will be sharing my notes on the MS650 once I have a chance to write
> them up properly as well. I wasn't able to find a printset for the RAM
> card itself, so I assume one doesn't exist in digital form yet. I have
> documented what bit and memory range each DRAM on the card corresponds
> to, which may help someone troubleshooting in the future
>  >
>  > Regards,
>  > Joe Zatarski

From joezatarski at gmail.com  Sun Nov 24 09:35:40 2019
From: joezatarski at gmail.com (Joseph Zatarski)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2019 09:35:40 -0600
Subject: DEC KA650 VAX memory troubleshooting
In-Reply-To: <1574605665153.16196@w2hx.com>
References: <CAL2F0+robXdWe6nxK-a8J-QgBVQWjfnyZke=GetNfF+VvwH9ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL2F0+pZM7G=Qan4CjpxLAW4uoYKqG-OG9hvWOb79NcJiah_Jg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5b3bb9fd-4ac8-93f2-af16-1dd13f7ad18e@gmail.com>
 <1574605665153.16196@w2hx.com>
Message-ID: <f536eb45-a126-fa94-4395-769d550c8d55@gmail.com>

I used an HP 16700A, which you can see in the video I linked some time back:

https://youtu.be/eDMhdAEFEgc

On 11/24/19 8:27 AM, W2HX wrote:
> Wow. Very nicely done! Which logic analyzer did you use to capture those displays?
> 
> 73 Eugene W2HX
> ________________________________________
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Joseph Zatarski via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2019 1:28 AM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: DEC KA650 VAX memory troubleshooting
> 
> Well, I finally got around to posting this on the CHWiki, in case
> anybody was curious about this.
> 
> https://gunkies.org/wiki/DEC_KA650_Memory_Subsystem
> 
> On 6/17/19 7:56 PM, Joe Zatarski wrote:
>> OK, so where should a thing like this go: https://pastebin.com/taQwaTV6
>>
>> Anybody got a decent place to upload that? it's my notes on the
>> MS650-AA, and more generally the KA650 CMCTL memory subsystem.
>>
>> Includes my theory of operation of the CMCTL, the organization of
>> memory, the ECC equations (kinda, the info is there to derive them),
>> explanations of the signals on the memory bus, and most importantly, a
>> list of which bits and RAM regions correspond to the 312 DRAMs on the board.
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 8:33 PM Joe Zatarski <joezatarski at gmail.com
>> <mailto:joezatarski at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>   >
>>   > Hey Everyone,
>>   >
>>   > I just thought I'd share a video of how I'm going about
>> troubleshooting the bad DRAMs on my MS650 memory board.
>>   >
>>   > https://youtu.be/eDMhdAEFEgc
>>   >
>>   > I apologize for the shaky-cam, I don't have a tripod, and I needed to
>> do a lot of panning anyway.
>>   >
>>   > I will be sharing my notes on the MS650 once I have a chance to write
>> them up properly as well. I wasn't able to find a printset for the RAM
>> card itself, so I assume one doesn't exist in digital form yet. I have
>> documented what bit and memory range each DRAM on the card corresponds
>> to, which may help someone troubleshooting in the future
>>   >
>>   > Regards,
>>   > Joe Zatarski

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Sun Nov 24 10:13:44 2019
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2019 08:13:44 -0800
Subject: DEC KA650 VAX memory troubleshooting
In-Reply-To: <1574605665153.16196@w2hx.com>
References: <CAL2F0+robXdWe6nxK-a8J-QgBVQWjfnyZke=GetNfF+VvwH9ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL2F0+pZM7G=Qan4CjpxLAW4uoYKqG-OG9hvWOb79NcJiah_Jg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5b3bb9fd-4ac8-93f2-af16-1dd13f7ad18e@gmail.com>
 <1574605665153.16196@w2hx.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwKpDPPE+GGh8df0OXJHn7uPcnJWk+eDscAKRCcx7h6T3w@mail.gmail.com>

Those waveform window displays are from an HP / Agilent 16700 series logic
analyzer.  Easy to recognize the HP-UX U/I if you have used one.

On Sun, Nov 24, 2019, 6:46 AM W2HX via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Wow. Very nicely done! Which logic analyzer did you use to capture those
> displays?
>
> 73 Eugene W2HX
> ________________________________________
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Joseph Zatarski
> via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2019 1:28 AM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: DEC KA650 VAX memory troubleshooting
>
> Well, I finally got around to posting this on the CHWiki, in case
> anybody was curious about this.
>
> https://gunkies.org/wiki/DEC_KA650_Memory_Subsystem
>

From new_castle_j at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 24 14:20:25 2019
From: new_castle_j at yahoo.com (Jonathan Haddox)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2019 20:20:25 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: TurboDOS for S-100, IMS or L/F Technologies
Message-ID: <446955840.4747539.1574626825121@mail.yahoo.com>

Yes, I was able to determine that the TurboDOS 1.41c disks which would complete my particular setup do exist and that they are in good hands, however I have not been able to get copies of the disks as of yet.  I'm hoping that patience will prevail and perhaps another copy will turn up or the copies that I know about might someday become available.  

The 16-bit 1.43 version that you need is readily available as 5.25" disk images.  I've got copies of them and they work well.  If you need it on 8" floppy, I can probably convert them using my IMS system to write them to 8".  Getting a system up and running is not that difficult, I can guide you through if there's any trouble.

Jonathan

__________________________________________________________________________________________________
did anything more ever turn up?
I'd like to try getting a 16-bit 1.43 running, there is a set of disks on ebay, but the seller has blocked me
https://www.ebay.com/itm/193098921854

On 6/28/19 7:17 PM, Jonathan Haddox via cctalk wrote:
>  Just sending a thanks for the replies from various folks on this list. I was able to recover a partial set of operating system files for my IMS/LF-Technologies S-100 machine from members who dug deep into their archives. It's booting now to a basic single-user TurboDOS 1.4 which proves that my hardware is sound. In order to get what I really want out of this machine, I still need to source a full set of TurboDOS 1.4 drivers (.REL files) from IMS L/F Tech distribution diskettes. I'll be around if they ever turn up.
> 
> Thank You!
> 
> IMS A645 Z-80 Processor
> IMS A631 serial/parallel I/O
> IMS A930 Floppy controller
> IMS A465 64K RAM
> IMS 1100 Winchester Hard disk controller
> IMS 862 User Processor (Z80)
> IMS 1081 User Processor (186)
> IMS 1120 Tape Controller    On Tuesday, June 11, 2019, 11:55:29 AM CDT, Jonathan Haddox <new_castle_j at yahoo.com> wrote:  
>  
>  I'm restoring an IMS - L/F Technologies S-100 Bus computer.? I've got all the pieces except for the Operating System.? I'm hoping that someone here may have a disk stashed away.? From the literature I have read, I would need TurboDOS version 1.40a or 1.41c from IMS or L/F Technologies.? I've seen TurboDOS 1.3 versions out in the wild from IMS, but the 1.4 version was greatly enhanced and offered better compatibility with my specific hardware.? I'd be much obliged if anyone can help.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jonathan
> new_castle_j? at yahoo  

From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com  Sun Nov 24 16:07:27 2019
From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2019 17:07:27 -0500
Subject: First Internet message and ...
Message-ID: <CAMvyYF8DJYwTkS-e0dOheZn-FL7+16T0969843ic=Nk-JKpUSQ@mail.gmail.com>

The first Internet message was sent 60 yrs. ago on Nov. 21 between SRI and
UCLA. It was one-to-many, or more accurate one-to-one, but the world today
is many-to-many though cctalk runs through a moderator. The Internet
democratizes and gives a certain freedom to us all but it can lead to
mis-information  from "one" or mis-interpretation by the "many".
Computerization of society as seen through cctalk tells this story well
mainly through the hardware side.

Happy computing.

Murray  ?

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Nov 24 16:59:45 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2019 14:59:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: "First Internet message" and ... A WHOLE LOT OF UNRELATED STUFF.
In-Reply-To: <CAMvyYF8DJYwTkS-e0dOheZn-FL7+16T0969843ic=Nk-JKpUSQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF8DJYwTkS-e0dOheZn-FL7+16T0969843ic=Nk-JKpUSQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911241417000.22427@shell.lmi.net>

On Sun, 24 Nov 2019, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote:
> The first Internet message was sent 60 yrs. ago on Nov. 21 between SRI and
> UCLA. It was one-to-many, or more accurate one-to-one, but the world today
> is many-to-many though cctalk runs through a moderator. The Internet
> democratizes and gives a certain freedom to us all but it can lead to
> mis-information  from "one" or mis-interpretation by the "many".
> Computerization of society as seen through cctalk tells this story well
> mainly through the hardware side.

Is that message about
1) history of internet?  (THANK YOU for specifying "internet", otherwise 
"computer to computer" involves much older history.  Definition and 
history of the WORD "internet" is also critical, the October 29, 
1969 ARPANET message is a more arguable contender.)
BTW, do you know of any actual use of the word/name "internet" prior to 
the December 1974 RFC about TCP?
Therefore, those messages were sent on PRECURSORS to the internet, NOT on 
the internet.
(MOST other messages about "first" anything are arguable due to ignored 
prior history  (cf. Columbus, Osborne Portable, etc.)

2) one-to-one V one-to-many V many-to-many?  (are you saying that it was 
one-to-many?)

3) "though cctalk runs through a moderator"   CCTALK moderation?   (what 
is the connection?)

4) internet "democratization"/"freedon"?  (or is that a "contrast" 
lead-in for discussing misinformation?)

5) misinformation/unreliability of what you read?

6) computerization of society?

7) cctalk as a view of computerization of society?   REALLY?
(a significant resource, ceretainly; telling the story? doubtful)

8) cctalk as being hardware side?

If it is about ALL of those, please break it up into eight paragraphs, 
or maybe even eight separate posts, instead of four disjointed sentences, 
and flesh it out to make your points about each.  You've got some good 
points to make, but this salad of concepts doesn't do them justice.
For example, moderation of cctalk might be interpreted as being about a 
bottleneck of one/many-to-many, OR as being related to misinformation.
Being thrown into an unrelated sentence takes away meaning.


The October 29, 1969 ARPANET message was "LO".  It was claimed to be 
"LOGIN", interrupted by system crash.  Sometimes misinterpreted as being 
slang for "HELLO", or even LOL.
https://thisdayintechhistory.com/10/29/first-message-on-the-internet/
Notice also that they had the sense not to rely on computers for 
maintaining the logs!  Or maybe handwriting was more economical than 
computer resources (cf. "The Feeling Of Power" by Asimov 1958)


From lproven at gmail.com  Sun Nov 24 17:44:00 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 00:44:00 +0100
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <CAMvyYF8DJYwTkS-e0dOheZn-FL7+16T0969843ic=Nk-JKpUSQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF8DJYwTkS-e0dOheZn-FL7+16T0969843ic=Nk-JKpUSQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEp_Kf=RuUp4NhNd8Pb=WC_BwML8RX5UeefDZLR2ZJMgA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 24 Nov 2019 at 23:07, Murray McCullough via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> The first Internet message was sent 60 yrs. ago on Nov. 21 between SRI and
> UCLA.

50, not 60.

https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/internet-50-years/

Source: ARPA.

https://www.computer.org/csdl/magazine/an/2019/02/08726054/1ascidqJPWg

I am not aware of when the second, successful attempt was. Some
sources say, later the same night.

So I think you are 10 years and nearly a month out.

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From mechanic_2 at charter.net  Sun Nov 24 17:50:45 2019
From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2019 17:50:45 -0600
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCEp_Kf=RuUp4NhNd8Pb=WC_BwML8RX5UeefDZLR2ZJMgA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF8DJYwTkS-e0dOheZn-FL7+16T0969843ic=Nk-JKpUSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEp_Kf=RuUp4NhNd8Pb=WC_BwML8RX5UeefDZLR2ZJMgA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5DDB1755.90601@charter.net>

Hello all,
     That is cool! I have been using the Internet from the time when you 
had to sign up with Compuserve or AOL to gain access. There was no 
private Internet access like what we have today. I was using a VIC-20, 
then a C-64, then a C-128, then an Amiga1000, then on to an Amiga2000, 
then an Amiga4000T. Lots of fun and memories.
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!

On 11/24/2019 5:44 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Nov 2019 at 23:07, Murray McCullough via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> The first Internet message was sent 60 yrs. ago on Nov. 21 between SRI and
>> UCLA.
> 50, not 60.
>
> https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/internet-50-years/
>
> Source: ARPA.
>
> https://www.computer.org/csdl/magazine/an/2019/02/08726054/1ascidqJPWg
>
> I am not aware of when the second, successful attempt was. Some
> sources say, later the same night.
>
> So I think you are 10 years and nearly a month out.
>


From allisonportable at gmail.com  Sun Nov 24 18:11:41 2019
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2019 19:11:41 -0500
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <CAMvyYF8DJYwTkS-e0dOheZn-FL7+16T0969843ic=Nk-JKpUSQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF8DJYwTkS-e0dOheZn-FL7+16T0969843ic=Nk-JKpUSQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0d2a9790-886b-cce1-0df4-69cf957bfba8@gmail.com>

On 11/24/19 5:07 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote:
> The first Internet message was sent 60 yrs. ago on Nov. 21 between SRI and
> UCLA. It was one-to-many, or more accurate one-to-one, but the world today
> is many-to-many though cctalk runs through a moderator. The Internet
> democratizes and gives a certain freedom to us all but it can lead to
> mis-information  from "one" or mis-interpretation by the "many".
> Computerization of society as seen through cctalk tells this story well
> mainly through the hardware side.
> 
> Happy computing.
> 
> Murray  ?
> 

OK, this is gibberish, word salad, English words mangled meaning.
Pick a topic and get concise.

Gah,

From jim.manley at gmail.com  Sun Nov 24 22:37:30 2019
From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2019 21:37:30 -0700
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <0d2a9790-886b-cce1-0df4-69cf957bfba8@gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF8DJYwTkS-e0dOheZn-FL7+16T0969843ic=Nk-JKpUSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <0d2a9790-886b-cce1-0df4-69cf957bfba8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2R3itmTwUoGqcf1BeLbV4veUJcUkVz38p+M4dAvD47Ug3_-A@mail.gmail.com>

Don't spoil the spirit of excitement over this sort of thing, even if they
get every detail wrong.  You weren't present for this event, and even
"expert" historians routinely also get a _lot_ of things wrong.  I lived
through this era, and have spent the last two decades conveying the
importance of such things to current-day scientific and engineering
researchers, as well as the public, as a volunteer senior docent and
restoration engineer at the Computer History Museum, as well as a STEM
teacher.

I'd commit some high crimes and misdemeanors if I could get any of my high
school and college students to exhibit even one percent of this level of
excitement about the stupendous things that happened just in 1969.  Beyond
the first successful remote login between heterogeneous computers via a
standard interface (not the first time a "message" was sent over the
"Internet"), that included the Apollo 11 Moon landing, the first Concorde
test flight, the debut of the Boeing 747, the first version of UNIX being
developed, the first microprocessor being produced, etc., etc., etc.

It's not just about fawning over the past accomplishments for nostalgic
reasons, but, to also learn from the mistakes that led to the advancements,
and there are many more errors than there are successes.  It has to be that
way, but, we don't celebrate the goof-ups and we absolutely should - let
those who have never failed cast the first stone, as it were.

One of my special tours at the CHM is "Mistakes That Kept Getting Repeated"
because, as we now know, those who don't learn the lessons of history are
doomed to repeat them.  It's not so simple though, because history doesn't
exactly repeat itself, but it does rhyme, and we have to be observant and
clever enough to recognize the meter as well as the lyrics.  Complaining
about the small stuff doesn't contribute to that and should be avoided so
that we don't scare off the enthusiastic newcomers and others not so
steeped in the details as we are.

All the Best,
Jim


On Sun, Nov 24, 2019 at 5:11 PM allison via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

>
> OK, this is gibberish, word salad, English words mangled meaning.
> Pick a topic and get concise.
>
> Gah,
>

From mechanic_2 at charter.net  Sun Nov 24 22:43:17 2019
From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2019 22:43:17 -0600
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <CAD2R3itmTwUoGqcf1BeLbV4veUJcUkVz38p+M4dAvD47Ug3_-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF8DJYwTkS-e0dOheZn-FL7+16T0969843ic=Nk-JKpUSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <0d2a9790-886b-cce1-0df4-69cf957bfba8@gmail.com>
 <CAD2R3itmTwUoGqcf1BeLbV4veUJcUkVz38p+M4dAvD47Ug3_-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5DDB5BE5.7000909@charter.net>

Jim,
     Well said and Thank-you!
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!

On 11/24/2019 10:37 PM, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote:
> Don't spoil the spirit of excitement over this sort of thing, even if they
> get every detail wrong.  You weren't present for this event, and even
> "expert" historians routinely also get a _lot_ of things wrong.  I lived
> through this era, and have spent the last two decades conveying the
> importance of such things to current-day scientific and engineering
> researchers, as well as the public, as a volunteer senior docent and
> restoration engineer at the Computer History Museum, as well as a STEM
> teacher.
>
> I'd commit some high crimes and misdemeanors if I could get any of my high
> school and college students to exhibit even one percent of this level of
> excitement about the stupendous things that happened just in 1969.  Beyond
> the first successful remote login between heterogeneous computers via a
> standard interface (not the first time a "message" was sent over the
> "Internet"), that included the Apollo 11 Moon landing, the first Concorde
> test flight, the debut of the Boeing 747, the first version of UNIX being
> developed, the first microprocessor being produced, etc., etc., etc.
>
> It's not just about fawning over the past accomplishments for nostalgic
> reasons, but, to also learn from the mistakes that led to the advancements,
> and there are many more errors than there are successes.  It has to be that
> way, but, we don't celebrate the goof-ups and we absolutely should - let
> those who have never failed cast the first stone, as it were.
>
> One of my special tours at the CHM is "Mistakes That Kept Getting Repeated"
> because, as we now know, those who don't learn the lessons of history are
> doomed to repeat them.  It's not so simple though, because history doesn't
> exactly repeat itself, but it does rhyme, and we have to be observant and
> clever enough to recognize the meter as well as the lyrics.  Complaining
> about the small stuff doesn't contribute to that and should be avoided so
> that we don't scare off the enthusiastic newcomers and others not so
> steeped in the details as we are.
>
> All the Best,
> Jim
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 24, 2019 at 5:11 PM allison via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
>> OK, this is gibberish, word salad, English words mangled meaning.
>> Pick a topic and get concise.
>>
>> Gah,
>>


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Nov 25 00:16:01 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2019 22:16:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <CAD2R3itmTwUoGqcf1BeLbV4veUJcUkVz38p+M4dAvD47Ug3_-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF8DJYwTkS-e0dOheZn-FL7+16T0969843ic=Nk-JKpUSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <0d2a9790-886b-cce1-0df4-69cf957bfba8@gmail.com>
 <CAD2R3itmTwUoGqcf1BeLbV4veUJcUkVz38p+M4dAvD47Ug3_-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911242149030.22427@shell.lmi.net>

Yes.
But what REALLY happened was even more exciting than some cockamamy TV 
news "Birthday of the internet!" headline story with a segue into malware 
and fake news warnings.

The message being discussed, "LO[GIN]", was an important "proof of 
concept" of what could eventually be done.


More worrisome is that Murray is NOT A "NEWCOMER" who will be "scared off" 
by corrections of his facts!  This is not the first time that he has 
needed to be admonished to be VERY specific about what was "FIRST" about 
something.  He wrote about the exact same event three weeks ago, on the 
correct date, with much more accurate details, other than calling it "the 
first inter-computer communication".  Not sure where he got the November 
21 date, nor the "SIXTY years ago" (probably a simple misteak)

He is quite capable of some fairly good writing.  I don't remember any 
prior time that he had to be reminded to "PICK A TOPIC!" rather than 
string together eight unrelated concepts into four sentences.


On the other hand, if his confusion was recreational, that's OK, too.
Let's have a toast with him to the people who got the idea to work, 
disunirregardless of who was "first".

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com


On Sun, 24 Nov 2019, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote:

> Don't spoil the spirit of excitement over this sort of thing, even if they
> get every detail wrong.  You weren't present for this event, and even
> "expert" historians routinely also get a _lot_ of things wrong.  I lived
> through this era, and have spent the last two decades conveying the
> importance of such things to current-day scientific and engineering
> researchers, as well as the public, as a volunteer senior docent and
> restoration engineer at the Computer History Museum, as well as a STEM
> teacher.
>
> I'd commit some high crimes and misdemeanors if I could get any of my high
> school and college students to exhibit even one percent of this level of
> excitement about the stupendous things that happened just in 1969.  Beyond
> the first successful remote login between heterogeneous computers via a
> standard interface (not the first time a "message" was sent over the
> "Internet"), that included the Apollo 11 Moon landing, the first Concorde
> test flight, the debut of the Boeing 747, the first version of UNIX being
> developed, the first microprocessor being produced, etc., etc., etc.
>
> It's not just about fawning over the past accomplishments for nostalgic
> reasons, but, to also learn from the mistakes that led to the advancements,
> and there are many more errors than there are successes.  It has to be that
> way, but, we don't celebrate the goof-ups and we absolutely should - let
> those who have never failed cast the first stone, as it were.
>
> One of my special tours at the CHM is "Mistakes That Kept Getting Repeated"
> because, as we now know, those who don't learn the lessons of history are
> doomed to repeat them.  It's not so simple though, because history doesn't
> exactly repeat itself, but it does rhyme, and we have to be observant and
> clever enough to recognize the meter as well as the lyrics.  Complaining
> about the small stuff doesn't contribute to that and should be avoided so
> that we don't scare off the enthusiastic newcomers and others not so
> steeped in the details as we are.
>
> All the Best,
> Jim
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 24, 2019 at 5:11 PM allison via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> OK, this is gibberish, word salad, English words mangled meaning.
>> Pick a topic and get concise.
>>
>> Gah,

From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 04:58:34 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 11:58:34 +0100
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <CAD2R3itmTwUoGqcf1BeLbV4veUJcUkVz38p+M4dAvD47Ug3_-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF8DJYwTkS-e0dOheZn-FL7+16T0969843ic=Nk-JKpUSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <0d2a9790-886b-cce1-0df4-69cf957bfba8@gmail.com>
 <CAD2R3itmTwUoGqcf1BeLbV4veUJcUkVz38p+M4dAvD47Ug3_-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCG5cGrd2Xhe=KXTx0PR_Oiuj58AUVrySy2TJTRJxa+Eww@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 at 05:38, Jim Manley via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> One of my special tours at the CHM is "Mistakes That Kept Getting Repeated"

That is something I would _really_ like to hear. Sadly I am on the
wrong continent for it and that's not likely to change in the
foreseeable future. Between new baby, Eastern European salary, US
government and its dim view of journalists, greenhouse-gas footprint
of gratuitous intercontinental travel and so on, I may never visit
North America again.


-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Mon Nov 25 06:39:19 2019
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 12:39:19 +0000
Subject: Straight -8 Front Panel
Message-ID: <a0f88166-e1fb-04c1-5b7f-eb332bcfa0a9@btinternet.com>

Hi

 ? Can anybody tell me the dimensions of a Straight-8 Front Panel. - 
Just the glass section

Thanks

Rod


-- 



From elson at pico-systems.com  Mon Nov 25 10:20:14 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 10:20:14 -0600
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <CAMvyYF8DJYwTkS-e0dOheZn-FL7+16T0969843ic=Nk-JKpUSQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF8DJYwTkS-e0dOheZn-FL7+16T0969843ic=Nk-JKpUSQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5DDBFF3E.2000206@pico-systems.com>

On 11/24/2019 04:07 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote:
> The first Internet message was sent 60 yrs. ago on Nov. 21 between SRI and
> UCLA.
2019 - 60 = 1959.  Yes, there were a few computers then, and 
serial communication over phone lines was possible.
But, "Internet"??  Did they actually use TCP/IP?  No, not 
invented yet.

Jon

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 10:55:14 2019
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 11:55:14 -0500
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <5DDBFF3E.2000206@pico-systems.com>
References: <CAMvyYF8DJYwTkS-e0dOheZn-FL7+16T0969843ic=Nk-JKpUSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5DDBFF3E.2000206@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+dfSJ16cm9cLvLtZc0v+e7LJzt_0fUG84+LY7Xoy=O0++w@mail.gmail.com>

> 2019 - 60 = 1959.  Yes, there were a few computers then, and
> serial communication over phone lines was possible.
> But, "Internet"??  Did they actually use TCP/IP?  No, not
> invented yet.

Like most things, the colors of computer networking history get
extremely blurred and runny, like using watercolors on toilet paper.

--
Will

From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Nov 25 11:16:54 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 09:16:54 -0800
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dfSJ16cm9cLvLtZc0v+e7LJzt_0fUG84+LY7Xoy=O0++w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF8DJYwTkS-e0dOheZn-FL7+16T0969843ic=Nk-JKpUSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5DDBFF3E.2000206@pico-systems.com>
 <CANij+dfSJ16cm9cLvLtZc0v+e7LJzt_0fUG84+LY7Xoy=O0++w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1814b97d-9a70-59bd-bf36-d540541594f5@bitsavers.org>



On 11/25/19 8:55 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:

> Like most things, the colors of computer networking history get
> extremely blurred and runny, like using watercolors on toilet paper.

A lot on the subject has been written. Sometimes they even go back to primary
sources. Most times, they just regurgitate what others have written.

Maybe things will get better as access to the primary sources that still
exist gets requires less work.



From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Nov 25 12:06:25 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 13:06:25 -0500 (EST)
Subject: "First Internet message" and ...
Message-ID: <20191125180625.8BBDE18C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Fred Cisin

    > Is that message about 1) history of internet? (THANK YOU for specifying
    > "internet", otherwise "computer to computer" involves much older history.
    > ...
    > those messages were sent on PRECURSORS to the internet, NOT on the
    > internet.

Did you mean "internet" or 'Internet'?

The poorly educated cretins at the AP nothwithstanding, those are two
different words, with _different meanings_.


    > Definition and history of the WORD "internet" is also critical
    > ...
    > do you know of any actual use of the word/name "internet" prior to the
    > December 1974 RFC about TCP?

I believe the word 'internet' was coined for:

      V. Cerf and R. Kahn, "A Protocol For Packet Network
      Intercommunication," IEEE Transactions on Communication, vol. C-
      2O, No. 5. May 1974, pp. 637-648.

There was earlier work in the general area of connecting computer data
networks together, performed in the International Packet Network Working
Group (INWG), which had an alternative term 'catenet' which had much the same
meaning as 'internet'. (Although little-known, the INWG - not to be confused
with the later DARPA-centric group of the same acronym - is documented in two
papers, a draft one by Ronda Hauben, and a later one by Alex McKenzie.) I
don't know if the term 'internet' was used there before its appearance in the
Cerf/Kakhn paper.

Interestingly, "Internetworking" is mentioned in RFC604, December 1973, so
the word was in circulation in the technical community before the Cerf/Kahn
paper came out.


"Internet" came along later, when we needed a name for the internet centered
around the ARPANET. The need was discussed on the then-central email list for
the TCP/IP community (which may have been called 'inwg' - my memory is, alas,
fading), and we decided on 'Internet'.

I'd previously looked for the first use of 'Internet' in that sense in the
RFC's, and found it, but I don't remember what it was! Looking again, there's
a lot of 'Internet Protocol' and similar things to sort out; I see an
'Internet' in RFC780, May 1981, but it's marginal (it says "ARPA Internet");
the first 'true' use of 'Internet' on its own in the current meaning which
I found was in RFC821, August 1982.

	Noel

From mechanic_2 at charter.net  Mon Nov 25 12:45:14 2019
From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 12:45:14 -0600
Subject: "First Internet message" and ...
In-Reply-To: <20191125180625.8BBDE18C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20191125180625.8BBDE18C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <5DDC213A.7030209@charter.net>

Noel,
     Isn't the proper term for my network of computers here at home: 
internet and the term : Internet the proper term for the worldwide 
collection of networked computers?
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!

On 11/25/2019 12:06 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
>      > From: Fred Cisin
>
>      > Is that message about 1) history of internet? (THANK YOU for specifying
>      > "internet", otherwise "computer to computer" involves much older history.
>      > ...
>      > those messages were sent on PRECURSORS to the internet, NOT on the
>      > internet.
>
> Did you mean "internet" or 'Internet'?
>
> The poorly educated cretins at the AP nothwithstanding, those are two
> different words, with _different meanings_.
>
>
>      > Definition and history of the WORD "internet" is also critical
>      > ...
>      > do you know of any actual use of the word/name "internet" prior to the
>      > December 1974 RFC about TCP?
>
> I believe the word 'internet' was coined for:
>
>        V. Cerf and R. Kahn, "A Protocol For Packet Network
>        Intercommunication," IEEE Transactions on Communication, vol. C-
>        2O, No. 5. May 1974, pp. 637-648.
>
> There was earlier work in the general area of connecting computer data
> networks together, performed in the International Packet Network Working
> Group (INWG), which had an alternative term 'catenet' which had much the same
> meaning as 'internet'. (Although little-known, the INWG - not to be confused
> with the later DARPA-centric group of the same acronym - is documented in two
> papers, a draft one by Ronda Hauben, and a later one by Alex McKenzie.) I
> don't know if the term 'internet' was used there before its appearance in the
> Cerf/Kakhn paper.
>
> Interestingly, "Internetworking" is mentioned in RFC604, December 1973, so
> the word was in circulation in the technical community before the Cerf/Kahn
> paper came out.
>
>
> "Internet" came along later, when we needed a name for the internet centered
> around the ARPANET. The need was discussed on the then-central email list for
> the TCP/IP community (which may have been called 'inwg' - my memory is, alas,
> fading), and we decided on 'Internet'.
>
> I'd previously looked for the first use of 'Internet' in that sense in the
> RFC's, and found it, but I don't remember what it was! Looking again, there's
> a lot of 'Internet Protocol' and similar things to sort out; I see an
> 'Internet' in RFC780, May 1981, but it's marginal (it says "ARPA Internet");
> the first 'true' use of 'Internet' on its own in the current meaning which
> I found was in RFC821, August 1982.
>
> 	Noel
>


From nw.johnson at ieee.org  Mon Nov 25 12:53:02 2019
From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 13:53:02 -0500
Subject: "First Internet message" and ...
In-Reply-To: <5DDC213A.7030209@charter.net>
References: <20191125180625.8BBDE18C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <5DDC213A.7030209@charter.net>
Message-ID: <5fa75c24-cce6-8a49-39af-53a2bc7d4df1@ieee.org>

No, your home has an intranet!

cheers,

Nigel


On 25/11/2019 13:45, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote:
> Noel,
> ??? Isn't the proper term for my network of computers here at home: 
> internet and the term : Internet the proper term for the worldwide 
> collection of networked computers?
> GOD Bless and Thanks,
> rich!
>
> On 11/25/2019 12:06 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
>> ???? > From: Fred Cisin
>>
>> ???? > Is that message about 1) history of internet? (THANK YOU for 
>> specifying
>> ???? > "internet", otherwise "computer to computer" involves much 
>> older history.
>> ???? > ...
>> ???? > those messages were sent on PRECURSORS to the internet, NOT on 
>> the
>> ???? > internet.
>>
>> Did you mean "internet" or 'Internet'?
>>
>> The poorly educated cretins at the AP nothwithstanding, those are two
>> different words, with _different meanings_.
>>
>>
>> ???? > Definition and history of the WORD "internet" is also critical
>> ???? > ...
>> ???? > do you know of any actual use of the word/name "internet" 
>> prior to the
>> ???? > December 1974 RFC about TCP?
>>
>> I believe the word 'internet' was coined for:
>>
>> ?????? V. Cerf and R. Kahn, "A Protocol For Packet Network
>> ?????? Intercommunication," IEEE Transactions on Communication, vol. C-
>> ?????? 2O, No. 5. May 1974, pp. 637-648.
>>
>> There was earlier work in the general area of connecting computer data
>> networks together, performed in the International Packet Network Working
>> Group (INWG), which had an alternative term 'catenet' which had much 
>> the same
>> meaning as 'internet'. (Although little-known, the INWG - not to be 
>> confused
>> with the later DARPA-centric group of the same acronym - is 
>> documented in two
>> papers, a draft one by Ronda Hauben, and a later one by Alex 
>> McKenzie.) I
>> don't know if the term 'internet' was used there before its 
>> appearance in the
>> Cerf/Kakhn paper.
>>
>> Interestingly, "Internetworking" is mentioned in RFC604, December 
>> 1973, so
>> the word was in circulation in the technical community before the 
>> Cerf/Kahn
>> paper came out.
>>
>>
>> "Internet" came along later, when we needed a name for the internet 
>> centered
>> around the ARPANET. The need was discussed on the then-central email 
>> list for
>> the TCP/IP community (which may have been called 'inwg' - my memory 
>> is, alas,
>> fading), and we decided on 'Internet'.
>>
>> I'd previously looked for the first use of 'Internet' in that sense 
>> in the
>> RFC's, and found it, but I don't remember what it was! Looking again, 
>> there's
>> a lot of 'Internet Protocol' and similar things to sort out; I see an
>> 'Internet' in RFC780, May 1981, but it's marginal (it says "ARPA 
>> Internet");
>> the first 'true' use of 'Internet' on its own in the current meaning 
>> which
>> I found was in RFC821, August 1982.
>>
>> ????Noel
>>
>
  

-- 
Nigel Johnson
MSc., MIEEE
VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU

Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!


You can reach me by voice on Skype:  TILBURY2591

If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday

This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way.
    Nigel Johnson <nw.johnson at ieee.org>

     
Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message




From mechanic_2 at charter.net  Mon Nov 25 12:57:38 2019
From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 12:57:38 -0600
Subject: "First Internet message" and ...
In-Reply-To: <5fa75c24-cce6-8a49-39af-53a2bc7d4df1@ieee.org>
References: <20191125180625.8BBDE18C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <5DDC213A.7030209@charter.net>
 <5fa75c24-cce6-8a49-39af-53a2bc7d4df1@ieee.org>
Message-ID: <5DDC2422.9060301@charter.net>

Nigel,
     You are correct. Sorry! A Senior moment. LOL! :) What about 
internet vs Internet?
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!

On 11/25/2019 12:53 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote:
> No, your home has an intranet!
>
> cheers,
>
> Nigel
>
>
> On 25/11/2019 13:45, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote:
>> Noel,
>>     Isn't the proper term for my network of computers here at home: 
>> internet and the term : Internet the proper term for the worldwide 
>> collection of networked computers?
>> GOD Bless and Thanks,
>> rich!
>>
>> On 11/25/2019 12:06 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
>>>      > From: Fred Cisin
>>>
>>>      > Is that message about 1) history of internet? (THANK YOU for 
>>> specifying
>>>      > "internet", otherwise "computer to computer" involves much 
>>> older history.
>>>      > ...
>>>      > those messages were sent on PRECURSORS to the internet, NOT 
>>> on the
>>>      > internet.
>>>
>>> Did you mean "internet" or 'Internet'?
>>>
>>> The poorly educated cretins at the AP nothwithstanding, those are two
>>> different words, with _different meanings_.
>>>
>>>
>>>      > Definition and history of the WORD "internet" is also critical
>>>      > ...
>>>      > do you know of any actual use of the word/name "internet" 
>>> prior to the
>>>      > December 1974 RFC about TCP?
>>>
>>> I believe the word 'internet' was coined for:
>>>
>>>        V. Cerf and R. Kahn, "A Protocol For Packet Network
>>>        Intercommunication," IEEE Transactions on Communication, vol. C-
>>>        2O, No. 5. May 1974, pp. 637-648.
>>>
>>> There was earlier work in the general area of connecting computer data
>>> networks together, performed in the International Packet Network 
>>> Working
>>> Group (INWG), which had an alternative term 'catenet' which had much 
>>> the same
>>> meaning as 'internet'. (Although little-known, the INWG - not to be 
>>> confused
>>> with the later DARPA-centric group of the same acronym - is 
>>> documented in two
>>> papers, a draft one by Ronda Hauben, and a later one by Alex 
>>> McKenzie.) I
>>> don't know if the term 'internet' was used there before its 
>>> appearance in the
>>> Cerf/Kakhn paper.
>>>
>>> Interestingly, "Internetworking" is mentioned in RFC604, December 
>>> 1973, so
>>> the word was in circulation in the technical community before the 
>>> Cerf/Kahn
>>> paper came out.
>>>
>>>
>>> "Internet" came along later, when we needed a name for the internet 
>>> centered
>>> around the ARPANET. The need was discussed on the then-central email 
>>> list for
>>> the TCP/IP community (which may have been called 'inwg' - my memory 
>>> is, alas,
>>> fading), and we decided on 'Internet'.
>>>
>>> I'd previously looked for the first use of 'Internet' in that sense 
>>> in the
>>> RFC's, and found it, but I don't remember what it was! Looking 
>>> again, there's
>>> a lot of 'Internet Protocol' and similar things to sort out; I see an
>>> 'Internet' in RFC780, May 1981, but it's marginal (it says "ARPA 
>>> Internet");
>>> the first 'true' use of 'Internet' on its own in the current meaning 
>>> which
>>> I found was in RFC821, August 1982.
>>>
>>>     Noel
>>>
>>
>
>


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Mon Nov 25 13:01:50 2019
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 14:01:50 -0500
Subject: "First Internet message" and ...
In-Reply-To: <5DDC213A.7030209@charter.net>
References: <20191125180625.8BBDE18C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <5DDC213A.7030209@charter.net>
Message-ID: <A61938DA-77AF-4DF9-948E-C2287820BF9F@comcast.net>

No, "internet" has (had?) a very different meaning.  Loosely, a network of computers belonging to different organizations, or using different technologies.  I think at the time, "network" was used to designate a collection of computers in a single building, or under single management, talking to each other.  If you connect such "networks" together, the result is an "internet".

I'd say that term is at this point rather obsolete.  I don't think I've seen it in use as a technical term for decades.

"Internet", with a capital letter, is something different entirely: it is (or feels like) the term picked to replace "ARPAnet" when it became desirable to call that network by a name that doesn't designate it as a US government research agency creation.

	paul

> On Nov 25, 2019, at 1:45 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Noel,
>    Isn't the proper term for my network of computers here at home: internet and the term : Internet the proper term for the worldwide collection of networked computers?
> GOD Bless and Thanks,
> rich!
> 
> On 11/25/2019 12:06 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
>>     > From: Fred Cisin
>> 
>>     > Is that message about 1) history of internet? (THANK YOU for specifying
>>     > "internet", otherwise "computer to computer" involves much older history.
>>     > ...
>>     > those messages were sent on PRECURSORS to the internet, NOT on the
>>     > internet.
>> 
>> Did you mean "internet" or 'Internet'?
>> 
>> The poorly educated cretins at the AP nothwithstanding, those are two
>> different words, with _different meanings_.
>> ...


From alan at alanlee.org  Mon Nov 25 13:15:06 2019
From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 14:15:06 -0500
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <CAMvyYF8DJYwTkS-e0dOheZn-FL7+16T0969843ic=Nk-JKpUSQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF8DJYwTkS-e0dOheZn-FL7+16T0969843ic=Nk-JKpUSQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <884bb78fd25c7bd5d26048f03fb9da57@alanlee.org>


Taking the risk of opening another can of worms...

ARPANET wasn't the first large scale data network.  I believe SITA HLN 
was world-wide by 1969.  However it was a mix of switching technologies 
from fully automated to manual depending on what part of the world you 
were in.  Frankfurt was the first SITA node to transition to fully 
automatic data routing in 1966.

And ARPANET wasn't the largest data network when TCP/IP was formalized 
in the early 80s.  We only recognize it as the 'Internet' because of 
it's lineage.

-Alan


On 2019-11-24 17:07, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote:
> The first Internet message was sent 60 yrs. ago on Nov. 21 between SRI 
> and
> UCLA. It was one-to-many, or more accurate one-to-one, but the world 
> today
> is many-to-many though cctalk runs through a moderator. The Internet
> democratizes and gives a certain freedom to us all but it can lead to
> mis-information  from "one" or mis-interpretation by the "many".
> Computerization of society as seen through cctalk tells this story well
> mainly through the hardware side.
> 
> Happy computing.
> 
> Murray  ?

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 13:29:15 2019
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 14:29:15 -0500
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <884bb78fd25c7bd5d26048f03fb9da57@alanlee.org>
References: <CAMvyYF8DJYwTkS-e0dOheZn-FL7+16T0969843ic=Nk-JKpUSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <884bb78fd25c7bd5d26048f03fb9da57@alanlee.org>
Message-ID: <CANij+dfSwd1YVHhRO5oF8Jfot+spfMw74zn-oALUVetkbGFung@mail.gmail.com>

> ARPANET wasn't the first large scale data network.  I believe SITA HLN
> was world-wide by 1969.  However it was a mix of switching technologies
> from fully automated to manual depending on what part of the world you
> were in.  Frankfurt was the first SITA node to transition to fully
> automatic data routing in 1966.

AUTODIN was also worldwide by the late 1960s. While it did not allow
interactivity between computers - well, back then that really was not
much of a thing - It did allow email and generic file transfer (stack
of cards - what a file was back then) between varying computer
systems.

And then there was a Western Electric system that I forget the name
of. I have one of the tape drive racks in my garage (videos of this
and my AUTODIN junk eventually)..

--
Will

From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Nov 25 13:35:26 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 11:35:26 -0800
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <884bb78fd25c7bd5d26048f03fb9da57@alanlee.org>
References: <CAMvyYF8DJYwTkS-e0dOheZn-FL7+16T0969843ic=Nk-JKpUSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <884bb78fd25c7bd5d26048f03fb9da57@alanlee.org>
Message-ID: <79062e3e-45c4-604c-f6f7-29b0d3e1d64c@sydex.com>

On 11/25/19 11:15 AM, alan--- via cctalk wrote:
> 
> Taking the risk of opening another can of worms...
> 
> ARPANET wasn't the first large scale data network.? I believe SITA HLN
> was world-wide by 1969.? However it was a mix of switching technologies
> from fully automated to manual depending on what part of the world you
> were in.? Frankfurt was the first SITA node to transition to fully
> automatic data routing in 1966.
> 
> And ARPANET wasn't the largest data network when TCP/IP was formalized
> in the early 80s.? We only recognize it as the 'Internet' because of
> it's lineage.

Does nobody remember AUTODIN?

--Chuck

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 13:38:40 2019
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 14:38:40 -0500
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <79062e3e-45c4-604c-f6f7-29b0d3e1d64c@sydex.com>
References: <CAMvyYF8DJYwTkS-e0dOheZn-FL7+16T0969843ic=Nk-JKpUSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <884bb78fd25c7bd5d26048f03fb9da57@alanlee.org>
 <79062e3e-45c4-604c-f6f7-29b0d3e1d64c@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+dfK89c1ZUSoTUkPSSGi-rmF1h1-vA+ejN0bT2oNMcHzrw@mail.gmail.com>

> Does nobody remember AUTODIN?

Basically, no.

--
Will

From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Nov 25 13:56:25 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 11:56:25 -0800
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dfK89c1ZUSoTUkPSSGi-rmF1h1-vA+ejN0bT2oNMcHzrw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF8DJYwTkS-e0dOheZn-FL7+16T0969843ic=Nk-JKpUSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <884bb78fd25c7bd5d26048f03fb9da57@alanlee.org>
 <79062e3e-45c4-604c-f6f7-29b0d3e1d64c@sydex.com>
 <CANij+dfK89c1ZUSoTUkPSSGi-rmF1h1-vA+ejN0bT2oNMcHzrw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e3ca816e-a11c-e7a3-a802-2473d5407f64@sydex.com>

On 11/25/19 11:38 AM, William Donzelli wrote:
>> Does nobody remember AUTODIN?
> 
> Basically, no.

Yeah.  That's what I thought--or even WWMCCS.

--Chuck




From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Nov 25 14:06:15 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 15:06:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: "First Internet message" and ...
Message-ID: <20191125200615.2E7C818C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Richard Pope

    > Isn't the proper term for my network of computers here at home:
    > internet

It depends on what's inside it.

An 'internet' is a collection of disparate networks tied together with packet
switches which examine the internet-layer headers of the packets passing
through them (such boxes are now known as 'routers'). The "internet layer"
doesn't appear in the ISO 7-layer model, since the concept didn't appear
until after that was done; but you can imagine it as layer '3A', crammed in
between 3 ('Network') and 4 ('Transport').

Note that there are a number of networking protocol families that include the
internet concept; CHAOS, PUP, XNS and DECnet among them (although there are
several versions of DECnet and I no longer remember the details of most of
them, so take that one with the proverbial grain, but several had internets).

Does does the network in your house use router(s) to tie it together? If so,
it's an internet; if not, no. If you have a wireless hub, connected to a CATV
modem, you probably have a small piece of 'the Internet' in your house. (See
below.)

Note that there are still internets (and networks) which are not connected to
the Internet - Google for "air gap".


    > and the term : Internet the proper term for the worldwide collection of
    > networked computers?

Originally 'the Internet' was the large TCP/IP internet centered around the
ARPANET, and later the NSFNET.

These days, the concept is more diffuse - there was some discussion recently
on the internet-history list:

  http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/internet-history/

about it, but I'm too lazy to track down the exact messages.

	Noel

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Mon Nov 25 14:16:03 2019
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 20:16:03 +0000
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <e3ca816e-a11c-e7a3-a802-2473d5407f64@sydex.com>
References: <CAMvyYF8DJYwTkS-e0dOheZn-FL7+16T0969843ic=Nk-JKpUSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <884bb78fd25c7bd5d26048f03fb9da57@alanlee.org>
 <79062e3e-45c4-604c-f6f7-29b0d3e1d64c@sydex.com>
 <CANij+dfK89c1ZUSoTUkPSSGi-rmF1h1-vA+ejN0bT2oNMcHzrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e3ca816e-a11c-e7a3-a802-2473d5407f64@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <BYAPR20MB27572F4FCE7A58CA63C69E06ED4A0@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>

On 11/25/19 2:56 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> On 11/25/19 11:38 AM, William Donzelli wrote:
>>> Does nobody remember AUTODIN?
>>
>> Basically, no.
> 
> Yeah.  That's what I thought--or even WWMCCS.
> 

Well, just to keep a lot people from going to bed tonite
in tears.....  :-)

Having been military communicator starting in the late 60's
I remember both AUTODIN and WWMCCS.

bill


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Nov 25 14:45:35 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 15:45:35 -0500 (EST)
Subject: "First Internet message" and ...
Message-ID: <20191125204535.1EBF418C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Nigel Johnson

    > No, your home has an intranet!

Can you please provide a crisp, definitive, technical definition of what an
'intranet' is (similar to the one I just provided for 'internet' - "disparate
networks tied together with packet switches which examine the internet-layer
headers")?

If not, it's just marketing-speak, and should go where "Hitchhiker's Guide"
said marketing should go. (Having said that, only half-jokingly, I should add
that I am fully aware that _really good_ marketing people are worth their own
weight in gold-pressed latinum; the prime example being Steve Jobs, who
invented several products that people didn't know they needed/wanted until he
produced them.)


    > From: Paul Koning

    > No, "internet" has (had?) a very different meaning. Loosely, a network
    > of computers belonging to different organizations, or using different
    > technologies.

That's not the definition used by the originators of the term: see the
Cerf/Kahn paper. (I basically regurgitated it, above.)

    > "Internet" .. the term picked to replace "ARPAnet" when it became
    > desirable to call that network by a name that doesn't designate it as a
    > US government research agency creation.

I can guarantee you that that is not correct (sorry). In 1982, which is
approximately when the term was created, you _had_ to have a USG connection to
get connected to the Internet. And the ARPANET was always called the ARPANET
until its last remnants were turned off in 1990 (although use of NCP was
discarded in January 1983, considerably earlier, so it was only used as a
component of the Internet after that).

In fact, I recollect the conversion with Vint Cerf (at an INENG/IETF meeting,
IIRC) where the term 'Internet' was suggested/adopted; in fact I may have been
the person who suggested it, although the memory is now too dim. The adoption
was _solely_ to do with the need for a name for the large internet we were all
connecting to, and _nothing_ to do with organizational stuff.

	Noel


From bhilpert at shaw.ca  Mon Nov 25 14:50:14 2019
From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 12:50:14 -0800
Subject: "First Internet message" and ...
In-Reply-To: <A61938DA-77AF-4DF9-948E-C2287820BF9F@comcast.net>
References: <20191125180625.8BBDE18C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <5DDC213A.7030209@charter.net>
 <A61938DA-77AF-4DF9-948E-C2287820BF9F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <13C07A3C-C001-49FE-A157-7412F02CEB85@shaw.ca>

On 2019-Nov-25, at 11:01 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
>> On Nov 25, 2019, at 1:45 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> On 11/25/2019 12:06 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
>>>> From: Fred Cisin
>>>> Is that message about 1) history of internet? (THANK YOU for specifying
>>>> "internet", otherwise "computer to computer" involves much older history.
>>>> ...
>>>> those messages were sent on PRECURSORS to the internet, NOT on the
>>>> internet.
>>> 
>>> Did you mean "internet" or 'Internet'?
>>> 
>>> The poorly educated cretins at the AP nothwithstanding, those are two
>>> different words, with _different meanings_.
>>> ...

>> 
>> Noel,
>>   Isn't the proper term for my network of computers here at home: internet and the term : Internet the proper term for the worldwide collection of networked computers?
>> 
>> rich

> No, "internet" has (had?) a very different meaning.  Loosely, a network of computers belonging to different organizations, or using different technologies.  I think at the time, "network" was used to designate a collection of computers in a single building, or under single management, talking to each other.  If you connect such "networks" together, the result is an "internet".
> 
> I'd say that term is at this point rather obsolete.  I don't think I've seen it in use as a technical term for decades.
> 
> "Internet", with a capital letter, is something different entirely: it is (or feels like) the term picked to replace "ARPAnet" when it became desirable to call that network by a name that doesn't designate it as a US government research agency creation.
> 	paul


(From my recollection from back in the early 80s), "internet" was about interworking between different *types* of networks.

Different types of networks and network technologies presented different capabilities and restrictions to the user - packet/frame sizes, flow control, routing/addressing specification, etc.

The point of 'internetting' was to provide a uniform interface for the user to 'the network' while your data could flow through instances of all sorts of different types of networks (not necessarily just different types of physical links) to get to the other end.
Roughly, IP took care of a common addressing scheme and a common packet presentation, TCP took care of end-to-end flow control.
(It wasn't (only) about bridging geographically-separated but otherwise-similar networks.)

It seems this is so all-encompassing nowadays that the original meaning is being lost.
As so much nowadays is about throwing ethernet frames around on different types of links and network formats (not what ethernet was originally designed for), some of the earlier diversity that made 'interneting' necessary may no longer be there.

It might be arguable whether we have an 'internet' any longer or just a great big 'network' with different types of links.


From coreyvcf at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 09:51:50 2019
From: coreyvcf at gmail.com (corey cohen)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 10:51:50 -0500
Subject: Straight -8 Front Panel
In-Reply-To: <a0f88166-e1fb-04c1-5b7f-eb332bcfa0a9@btinternet.com>
References: <a0f88166-e1fb-04c1-5b7f-eb332bcfa0a9@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <D39BDC3D-6CB1-4C06-B06E-3E652C20417A@gmail.com>

If no one answers I can measure the panel at the VCF Museum?s straight-8 on Wednesday when I?m there.

> On Nov 25, 2019, at 7:39 AM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
>   Can anybody tell me the dimensions of a Straight-8 Front Panel. - Just the glass section
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Rod
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> 


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Nov 25 15:03:16 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 13:03:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: "First Internet message" and ...
In-Reply-To: <13C07A3C-C001-49FE-A157-7412F02CEB85@shaw.ca>
References: <20191125180625.8BBDE18C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <5DDC213A.7030209@charter.net>
 <A61938DA-77AF-4DF9-948E-C2287820BF9F@comcast.net>
 <13C07A3C-C001-49FE-A157-7412F02CEB85@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911251300300.6085@shell.lmi.net>

seen recently:
"Ah, but was it porn, spam, or pop-up ads that really fueled the 
development of the interwebs?"

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 15:10:15 2019
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 16:10:15 -0500
Subject: Straight -8 Front Panel
In-Reply-To: <D39BDC3D-6CB1-4C06-B06E-3E652C20417A@gmail.com>
References: <a0f88166-e1fb-04c1-5b7f-eb332bcfa0a9@btinternet.com>
 <D39BDC3D-6CB1-4C06-B06E-3E652C20417A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimkPBXN2yXxS+sEvrYzsAVYb1e9qfptYoKzP-fR4ChvWqA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 4:02 PM corey cohen via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> If no one answers I can measure the panel at the VCF Museum?s straight-8 on Wednesday when I?m there.

I have the means to give the answer (and I'm likely to be a purchaser
since mine has some paint damage) but I can't get to mine before
December.

Looking forward to hearing the answer.

-ethan

From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 15:43:47 2019
From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 16:43:47 -0500
Subject: Correction for First Internet Message
Message-ID: <CAMvyYF-S6t=Hcz0ZZnjEXA5AjzE3e=VdAHotyWdT5u3+A4haHQ@mail.gmail.com>

I apologize for the wrong date. Should have said Nov. 21, 1969. Makes more
sense timewise...

Happy computing

Murray  ?

From mechanic_2 at charter.net  Mon Nov 25 15:46:02 2019
From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 15:46:02 -0600
Subject: "First Internet message" and ...
In-Reply-To: <20191125204535.1EBF418C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20191125204535.1EBF418C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <5DDC4B9A.1030006@charter.net>

Hello all,
     So I had an internet when I had my Amigas networked to my Windoze 
machines with Arcnet and the Windoze machines where connected to the 
Internet through a router/firewall. Correct??
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!

On 11/25/2019 2:45 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
>      > From: Nigel Johnson
>
>      > No, your home has an intranet!
>
> Can you please provide a crisp, definitive, technical definition of what an
> 'intranet' is (similar to the one I just provided for 'internet' - "disparate
> networks tied together with packet switches which examine the internet-layer
> headers")?
>
> If not, it's just marketing-speak, and should go where "Hitchhiker's Guide"
> said marketing should go. (Having said that, only half-jokingly, I should add
> that I am fully aware that _really good_ marketing people are worth their own
> weight in gold-pressed latinum; the prime example being Steve Jobs, who
> invented several products that people didn't know they needed/wanted until he
> produced them.)
>
>
>      > From: Paul Koning
>
>      > No, "internet" has (had?) a very different meaning. Loosely, a network
>      > of computers belonging to different organizations, or using different
>      > technologies.
>
> That's not the definition used by the originators of the term: see the
> Cerf/Kahn paper. (I basically regurgitated it, above.)
>
>      > "Internet" .. the term picked to replace "ARPAnet" when it became
>      > desirable to call that network by a name that doesn't designate it as a
>      > US government research agency creation.
>
> I can guarantee you that that is not correct (sorry). In 1982, which is
> approximately when the term was created, you _had_ to have a USG connection to
> get connected to the Internet. And the ARPANET was always called the ARPANET
> until its last remnants were turned off in 1990 (although use of NCP was
> discarded in January 1983, considerably earlier, so it was only used as a
> component of the Internet after that).
>
> In fact, I recollect the conversion with Vint Cerf (at an INENG/IETF meeting,
> IIRC) where the term 'Internet' was suggested/adopted; in fact I may have been
> the person who suggested it, although the memory is now too dim. The adoption
> was _solely_ to do with the need for a name for the large internet we were all
> connecting to, and _nothing_ to do with organizational stuff.
>
> 	Noel
>
>


From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 16:03:35 2019
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 17:03:35 -0500
Subject: "First Internet message" and ...
References: <20191125204535.1EBF418C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <740DE43663FE47D48C4AC455F53A4266@310e2>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Noel Chiappa via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Cc: <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2019 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: "First Internet message" and ...


>... Can you please provide a crisp, definitive, technical definition of what an
> 'intranet' is (similar to the one I just provided for 'internet' - "disparate
> networks tied together with packet switches which examine the internet-layer
> headers")?
> ...
> Noel
-------------------------------
Oh goody; when the "intranet" vs. "an internet" vs. "The Internet" discussion finally gets boring we can argue over the meaning and function of "switches" vs. "routers" vs. "hubs".

m

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 16:10:29 2019
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 17:10:29 -0500
Subject: "First Internet message" and ...
In-Reply-To: <740DE43663FE47D48C4AC455F53A4266@310e2>
References: <20191125204535.1EBF418C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <740DE43663FE47D48C4AC455F53A4266@310e2>
Message-ID: <CANij+deBqLCqzHHWCCO9Eex5A2FNx4ND3rqVQR9qNHgAfF+6ug@mail.gmail.com>

> Oh goody; when the "intranet" vs. "an internet" vs. "The Internet" discussion finally gets boring we can argue over the meaning and function of "switches" vs. "routers" vs. "hubs".

If we are lucky, maybe we can start a new holy war along the lines of
vi vs. emacs.

--
Will

From mechanic_2 at charter.net  Mon Nov 25 16:14:02 2019
From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 16:14:02 -0600
Subject: "First Internet message" and ...
In-Reply-To: <740DE43663FE47D48C4AC455F53A4266@310e2>
References: <20191125204535.1EBF418C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <740DE43663FE47D48C4AC455F53A4266@310e2>
Message-ID: <5DDC522A.2020900@charter.net>

Mike,
     That is easy. I am running a router/firewall as my gateway and I 
have a gigabit switch. I also have some 100mbit hubs and switches but 
I'm not using them. We can also get in to the fact the proper place to 
reply is at the top of the post and not at the bottom. Top posting has 
been the proper way since private BBS' were in existence.
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!

On 11/25/2019 4:03 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Noel Chiappa via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Cc: <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
> Sent: Monday, November 25, 2019 3:45 PM
> Subject: Re: "First Internet message" and ...
>
>
>> ... Can you please provide a crisp, definitive, technical definition of what an
>> 'intranet' is (similar to the one I just provided for 'internet' - "disparate
>> networks tied together with packet switches which examine the internet-layer
>> headers")?
>> ...
>> Noel
> -------------------------------
> Oh goody; when the "intranet" vs. "an internet" vs. "The Internet" discussion finally gets boring we can argue over the meaning and function of "switches" vs. "routers" vs. "hubs".
>
> m
>


From mechanic_2 at charter.net  Mon Nov 25 16:14:44 2019
From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 16:14:44 -0600
Subject: "First Internet message" and ...
In-Reply-To: <CANij+deBqLCqzHHWCCO9Eex5A2FNx4ND3rqVQR9qNHgAfF+6ug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20191125204535.1EBF418C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <740DE43663FE47D48C4AC455F53A4266@310e2>
 <CANij+deBqLCqzHHWCCO9Eex5A2FNx4ND3rqVQR9qNHgAfF+6ug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5DDC5254.1050406@charter.net>

Will,
     Good one. LOL! :)
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!

On 11/25/2019 4:10 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:
>> Oh goody; when the "intranet" vs. "an internet" vs. "The Internet" discussion finally gets boring we can argue over the meaning and function of "switches" vs. "routers" vs. "hubs".
> If we are lucky, maybe we can start a new holy war along the lines of
> vi vs. emacs.
>
> --
> Will
>


From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Mon Nov 25 16:56:15 2019
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 22:56:15 +0000
Subject: Straight -8 Front Panel
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimkPBXN2yXxS+sEvrYzsAVYb1e9qfptYoKzP-fR4ChvWqA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a0f88166-e1fb-04c1-5b7f-eb332bcfa0a9@btinternet.com>
 <D39BDC3D-6CB1-4C06-B06E-3E652C20417A@gmail.com>
 <CAALmimkPBXN2yXxS+sEvrYzsAVYb1e9qfptYoKzP-fR4ChvWqA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8f64911f-9342-6e40-60c8-3f4685afb3ac@btinternet.com>

Hi Ethan

Ok .. I now have dimensions and will add you to the list

I have only recently got back to doing panels after a break of a couple 
of years.

My wife has not been too well and has been hospitalized on a couple of 
occaisions.

However now she is just about fully recovered so I'm back to making panels.

I have stocks of PDP8/e (A and B), PDP8/f and universal /f or /m (unmarked).

I'm redoing the old artwork and looking to do my own screening when the 
weather gets better.

Doing silk screen printing in a English winter is not a good idea.

We have had showery rain and temps in the range -1C to +4C for weeks.

It aint going to get better anytime soon.

Even in a heated room the humidity is too high for quick drying.

I plan to have a range of panels made and in stock next spring.

I'm always interested in requirements for panels.

So if you hear of any please let me know.

Rod Smallwood



On 25/11/2019 21:10, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 4:02 PM corey cohen via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> If no one answers I can measure the panel at the VCF Museum?s straight-8 on Wednesday when I?m there.
> I have the means to give the answer (and I'm likely to be a purchaser
> since mine has some paint damage) but I can't get to mine before
> December.
>
> Looking forward to hearing the answer.
>
> -ethan

-- 



From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 17:44:43 2019
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 18:44:43 -0500
Subject: Straight -8 Front Panel
In-Reply-To: <8f64911f-9342-6e40-60c8-3f4685afb3ac@btinternet.com>
References: <a0f88166-e1fb-04c1-5b7f-eb332bcfa0a9@btinternet.com>
 <D39BDC3D-6CB1-4C06-B06E-3E652C20417A@gmail.com>
 <CAALmimkPBXN2yXxS+sEvrYzsAVYb1e9qfptYoKzP-fR4ChvWqA@mail.gmail.com>
 <8f64911f-9342-6e40-60c8-3f4685afb3ac@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimnzmmp0+kvCki30vpXOYfDfxQ4xoCg_PXzzRyzEy+UxmA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 5:56 PM Rod Smallwood via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> Hi Ethan
>
> Ok .. I now have dimensions and will add you to the list

Cool.  Thanks.

> I have only recently got back to doing panels after a break of a couple
> of years.

No worries.  Good to hear your wife is on the mend.

I'm in no hurry.  I won't be doing any restoration work on the
Straight-8s in the next year.  My next big project is trying to get
started on my 11/20.  It has the plexi, so no worries there.  It was
stripped before I rescued it from a dumpster so I have to replace all
the muffin fans and check to see if I have the power paddles or if I
have to have some made.  I definitely did not get the PSUs (those and
the fans were kept) and I am likely to use modern equipment rather
than try to source 50-year-old DEC linear PSUs.  The target is to get
it working by Spring 2022.

After I get my -8/S up, then I'll probably try to tackle one of the
Straight-8s, but I wanted to get in line for a plexi because the time
to get one is when they are made, not 10 years later.

Cheers,

-ethan

From spacewar at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 18:01:05 2019
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 17:01:05 -0700
Subject: "First Internet message" and ...
In-Reply-To: <5fa75c24-cce6-8a49-39af-53a2bc7d4df1@ieee.org>
References: <20191125180625.8BBDE18C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <5DDC213A.7030209@charter.net> <5fa75c24-cce6-8a49-39af-53a2bc7d4df1@ieee.org>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTTEk-6bwntBvtc+Zev5JLt11cLpN8QbAixOPMOUe-shTA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 11:53 AM Nigel Johnson via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> No, your home has an intranet!
>

My home has multiple distinct IP networks, which are joined by routers, and
by definition they constitute an internet.

As a whole, my internet at home could be considered an intranet, as
distinct from The Internet.

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Mon Nov 25 18:21:41 2019
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 17:21:41 -0700
Subject: "First Internet message" and ...
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTTEk-6bwntBvtc+Zev5JLt11cLpN8QbAixOPMOUe-shTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20191125180625.8BBDE18C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <5DDC213A.7030209@charter.net>
 <5fa75c24-cce6-8a49-39af-53a2bc7d4df1@ieee.org>
 <CAFrGgTTEk-6bwntBvtc+Zev5JLt11cLpN8QbAixOPMOUe-shTA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <08fd44c9-3bff-1a5c-1b6e-6abc4962ad0d@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 11/25/2019 5:01 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote:

> As a whole, my internet at home could be considered an intranet, as
> distinct from The Internet.

Remember we now are moving in the cloud era, a write only device.
I am just waiting for a INTERNET of pi's all emulating TSS 8.
The web for the last 20 years is what marketing wants to sell.
Ben.




From mechanic_2 at charter.net  Mon Nov 25 18:24:54 2019
From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 18:24:54 -0600
Subject: "First Internet message" and ...
In-Reply-To: <08fd44c9-3bff-1a5c-1b6e-6abc4962ad0d@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <20191125180625.8BBDE18C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <5DDC213A.7030209@charter.net>
 <5fa75c24-cce6-8a49-39af-53a2bc7d4df1@ieee.org>
 <CAFrGgTTEk-6bwntBvtc+Zev5JLt11cLpN8QbAixOPMOUe-shTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <08fd44c9-3bff-1a5c-1b6e-6abc4962ad0d@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <5DDC70D6.5080601@charter.net>

Hello all,
     I will never move to the cloud. I don't want my info out there. 
That is why win8 will probably be the last version of windoze that I 
will ever use.
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!

On 11/25/2019 6:21 PM, ben via cctalk wrote:
> On 11/25/2019 5:01 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote:
>
>> As a whole, my internet at home could be considered an intranet, as
>> distinct from The Internet.
>
> Remember we now are moving in the cloud era, a write only device.
> I am just waiting for a INTERNET of pi's all emulating TSS 8.
> The web for the last 20 years is what marketing wants to sell.
> Ben.
>
>
>
>


From nw.johnson at ieee.org  Mon Nov 25 18:29:37 2019
From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 19:29:37 -0500
Subject: "First Internet message" and ...
In-Reply-To: <5DDC70D6.5080601@charter.net>
References: <20191125180625.8BBDE18C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <5DDC213A.7030209@charter.net>
 <5fa75c24-cce6-8a49-39af-53a2bc7d4df1@ieee.org>
 <CAFrGgTTEk-6bwntBvtc+Zev5JLt11cLpN8QbAixOPMOUe-shTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <08fd44c9-3bff-1a5c-1b6e-6abc4962ad0d@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <5DDC70D6.5080601@charter.net>
Message-ID: <301d98b5-059f-3581-c75b-0f4aa251ae58@ieee.org>

Do you mean they have finally perfected the WOM???


On 11/25/2019 6:21 PM, ben via cctalk wrote:

Remember we now are moving in the cloud era, a write only device.
>>
>
  

-- 
Nigel Johnson
MSc., MIEEE
VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU

Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!


You can reach me by voice on Skype:  TILBURY2591

If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday

This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way.
    Nigel Johnson <nw.johnson at ieee.org>

     
Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message




From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Mon Nov 25 19:10:39 2019
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 18:10:39 -0700
Subject: "First Internet message" and ...
In-Reply-To: <301d98b5-059f-3581-c75b-0f4aa251ae58@ieee.org>
References: <20191125180625.8BBDE18C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <5DDC213A.7030209@charter.net>
 <5fa75c24-cce6-8a49-39af-53a2bc7d4df1@ieee.org>
 <CAFrGgTTEk-6bwntBvtc+Zev5JLt11cLpN8QbAixOPMOUe-shTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <08fd44c9-3bff-1a5c-1b6e-6abc4962ad0d@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <5DDC70D6.5080601@charter.net>
 <301d98b5-059f-3581-c75b-0f4aa251ae58@ieee.org>
Message-ID: <9fdc8a37-c202-7f85-83c2-24bb894f1ad7@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 11/25/2019 5:29 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote:
> Do you mean they have finally perfected the WOM???
> 
Yes in 1972 , but no free samples of the Signetics 25120,
orders only of 999,999 units @  $ 1.95 each. (limited time offer)

  http://www.ganssle.com/misc/wom1.jpg
  http://www.ganssle.com/misc/wom2.jpg



From guykd at optusnet.com.au  Mon Nov 25 19:37:58 2019
From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 12:37:58 +1100
Subject: Disposing: IBM Microchannel cards, for free
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20191123160623.011b9ec0@mail.optusnet.com.au>
References: <AM0PR09MB37804BC4C1E7BA8E21CB115A86490@AM0PR09MB3780.eurpr
 d09.prod.outlook.com>
 <12642cdd-98eb-d0e8-2191-cd9e18a884f1@gmail.com>
 <mailman.3.1574445600.1782.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <CAH1BU=_xSOPgbMivzxSWc_yHUY+hkDnD7-R5FLrQavSTxw0Vfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <12642cdd-98eb-d0e8-2191-cd9e18a884f1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20191126123758.00e04530@mail.optusnet.com.au>

They have all gone to good homes. 
Thanks to Matt and Dave in England for taking an IRMALink each, and Alan in USA
for taking the MC/8e Intelligent Async serial set. Not cheap postage, but they
saved me from having to bin those nice old cards.

Guy


At 04:06 PM 23/11/2019 +1100, you wrote:
>I'm clearing out some old stuff. These are free (but you pay postage) if anyone wants them.
>Catch: they are in Sydney Australia.
>
>---------------------------
>
>Digital Communications Associates Inc. Circa 1985
>IRMAlink  IRMA 2  3270 Micro-to-Mainframe communications
>IRMA 2 supplies the personal computer with direct coaxial connection
>to an IBM 3174, 3274, 3276 or Integral Terminal Controller with Type A adapters.
>
>Includes two completes sets, each: card + documentation + 3 x 3.5" disks with code and drivers.
>Not in original packing.
>
>See http://everist.org/spacejunk/sell/irma.htm
>
>---------------------------
>
>DigiBoard MC/8e Intelligent Async serial communications board (8 ports) Circa 1993
>One microchannel card plus octopus cable and manuals. Some manuals still in sealed envelopes.
>
>In original packing
>
>See http://everist.org/spacejunk/sell/mc8e.htm
>
>---------------------------
>
>Guy
>
>

From shumaker at att.net  Mon Nov 25 20:19:06 2019
From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 18:19:06 -0800
Subject: "First Internet message" and ...
In-Reply-To: <5DDC5254.1050406@charter.net>
References: <20191125204535.1EBF418C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <740DE43663FE47D48C4AC455F53A4266@310e2>
 <CANij+deBqLCqzHHWCCO9Eex5A2FNx4ND3rqVQR9qNHgAfF+6ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <5DDC5254.1050406@charter.net>
Message-ID: <dfcdc2da-1ff5-e50e-eabd-fb68b7d13694@att.net>


On 11/25/19 2:14 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote:
> Will,
> ??? Good one. LOL! :)
> GOD Bless and Thanks,
> rich!
>
> On 11/25/2019 4:10 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:
>>> Oh goody; when the "intranet" vs. "an internet" vs. "The Internet" 
>>> discussion finally gets boring we can argue over the meaning and 
>>> function of "switches" vs. "routers" vs. "hubs".
>> If we are lucky, maybe we can start a new holy war along the lines of
>> vi vs. emacs.
>>
>> -- 
>> Will
>>
>
>
>
this list is better than a free movie ticket


zzzzzzzzz...





From nw.johnson at ieee.org  Mon Nov 25 20:24:19 2019
From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 21:24:19 -0500
Subject: "First Internet message" and ...
In-Reply-To: <dfcdc2da-1ff5-e50e-eabd-fb68b7d13694@att.net>
References: <20191125204535.1EBF418C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <740DE43663FE47D48C4AC455F53A4266@310e2>
 <CANij+deBqLCqzHHWCCO9Eex5A2FNx4ND3rqVQR9qNHgAfF+6ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <5DDC5254.1050406@charter.net> <dfcdc2da-1ff5-e50e-eabd-fb68b7d13694@att.net>
Message-ID: <ac01d659-9fb3-8e28-00c7-4ecdf2dda4dc@ieee.org>

This is starting to sound like a usenet discussion years ago about the 
correct plural of 'VAX' :-)

Vaxen, Vaces, or just multiple VAX installations anybody?

cheers,

Nigel


On 25/11/2019 21:19, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote:
>
> On 11/25/19 2:14 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote:
>> Will,
>> ??? Good one. LOL! :)
>> GOD Bless and Thanks,
>> rich!
>>
>> On 11/25/2019 4:10 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:
>>>> Oh goody; when the "intranet" vs. "an internet" vs. "The Internet" 
>>>> discussion finally gets boring we can argue over the meaning and 
>>>> function of "switches" vs. "routers" vs. "hubs".
>>> If we are lucky, maybe we can start a new holy war along the lines of
>>> vi vs. emacs.
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Will
>>>
>>
>>
>>
> this list is better than a free movie ticket
>
>
> zzzzzzzzz...
>
>
>
>
  

-- 
Nigel Johnson
MSc., MIEEE
VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU

Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!


You can reach me by voice on Skype:  TILBURY2591

If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday

This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way.
    Nigel Johnson <nw.johnson at ieee.org>

     
Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message




From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net  Mon Nov 25 20:42:41 2019
From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 21:42:41 -0500
Subject: One old Sol, Two old names...
References: <13b001d5a403$2d09c5d0$871d5170$.ref@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <13b001d5a403$2d09c5d0$871d5170$@verizon.net>

I've just had the pleasure of taking a new machine into my collection, a Sol
20.

It's particularly interesting for several reasons.  First, it was once in
the possession

of Jim Willing (zoom into the label next to the control key):

 

http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/fixed_sol/20191125_195224.jpg

 

For those that don't know, Jim was a very early collector of vintage
computers

and one of the first collectors to put up a web site with pictures of his
collection,

scans of documents and the like.  Also, he was one of the first posters to
the

original classic computer mailing list:

 

http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/cctalk/

 

That's the first old name.

 

Other interesting things about the Sol include that it has an 80/64 video
modification

(with patches all over):

 

http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/fixed_sol/20191125_202606.jpg

 

and a patched personality module socket with a custom ROM:

 

http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/fixed_sol/20191125_195249.jpg

 

which leads to the second old name.  One that I don't know:

 

http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/fixed_sol/20191125_211019.jpg

 

Every time that the machine boots it displays that banner:

 

*** DAN CETRONE ***

 

I've done some googling but I can't find out anything about him.  I've
started

to disassemble the contents of the ROM.  There are some blocks that look
like

the Micro Complex ROM, but other sections don't match.  I'll publish it when

I'm done.  Anyway, I don't know if Dan was the author or just wanted to
uniquely

identify his Sol.  If anyone knows, knew, knew about, Dan, I'd love to hear
about

it.

 

Thanks,

Bill Sudbrink

 


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Nov 25 20:44:32 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 18:44:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Correction for First Internet Message
In-Reply-To: <CAMvyYF-S6t=Hcz0ZZnjEXA5AjzE3e=VdAHotyWdT5u3+A4haHQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF-S6t=Hcz0ZZnjEXA5AjzE3e=VdAHotyWdT5u3+A4haHQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911251835060.6085@shell.lmi.net>

We actually do appreciate the integrity of making corrections.
Most ofus should follow that example.
I hope that we have not been unduly harsh and insensitive in correcting 
your misteaks.


Unfortunately, besides the year, the event to which you referred is 
commonly accepted as being October 29, 1969.

I consider it to have been an extremely important "proof of concept" of 
what could eventually be done.  While there had been various 
inter-computer communications back to 1959, and probably before, it was 
important when they finally got that aspect of DARPANET to work!

I especially like:
https://thisdayintechhistory.com/10/29/first-message-on-the-internet/
because it has a picture of the hand-written log entry for it.


and, Happy Computing to you, too!

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com


On Mon, 25 Nov 2019, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote:

> I apologize for the wrong date. Should have said Nov. 21, 1969. Makes more
> sense timewise...
>
> Happy computing
>
> Murray  ???
From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 21:29:31 2019
From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 22:29:31 -0500
Subject: First Internet message and ...
Message-ID: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>

Grumpy Ol' Fred   cisin at xenosoft.com



*Wrote:*



*?More worrisome is that Murray is NOT A "NEWCOMER" who will be "scared off" *

*by corrections of his facts!  This is not the first time that he has *

*needed to be admonished to be VERY specific about what was "FIRST" about *

*something.  He wrote about the exact same event three weeks ago, on the *

*correct date, with much more accurate details, other than calling it "the *

*first inter-computer communication".  Not sure where he got the November *

*21 date, nor the "SIXTY years ago" (probably a simple misteak)*



*He is quite capable of some fairly good writing.  I don't remember any *

*prior time that he had to be reminded to "PICK A TOPIC!" rather than *

*string together eight unrelated concepts into four sentences.*



*On the other hand, if his confusion was recreational, that's OK, too.*

*Let's have a toast with him to the people who got the idea to work, *

*disunirregardless of who was "first".?*





**********  *



  Things we historians talk about are ?firsts? and ?facts?. If we go to
original source(s) maybe then we will get things right. I guess the best
that can be said is we agree to disagree. A sad commentary in this age of
what my ?facts? and your ?facts? are, are not the same but we historians
should do our best to state ?firsts? and ?facts? are indeed that to the
best of our knowledge. The 60 yrs. as noted was a math error and here I
spent years as a BASIC, C and C++ programmer as isn?t mathematics the basis
for all programming languages? Let's indeed toast to all micro-computing
progenitors for making our hobby possible.



  I?ve been a hobbyist and experimenter since the 1970s though I worked on
mini-computers(PDP-8/11) in the 1960s. I got to work on them in high
school; I know we were rather privileged.



  For microcomputers it began in April 1978 when I built the Heathkit
H8($2500 Cdn.) a computer based on the PDP-11 with 4K(B) of an 8K(B) card;
now $2500 will buy a truly powerful home computer with 16/32GB of memory.
My second, the Coleco ADAM, computer was Aug. 1984. A bit more powerful and
more useful to be sure. Finally in 1989 I moved into the IBM PC world ? the
Compaq Deskpro 386 which ran DOS, Lotus 1-2-3 and Windows 2 that could run
Word and Excel. Wow! Notebooks followed.



  And now(well Aug. 2019 to be precise) I built my own custom Mini-ITX PC
from parts sourced here and there for $750 Cdn. This makes me nostalgic for
the old days of computing we talk about on cctalk.



Happy computing.



Murray  ?

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Nov 25 22:33:05 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 20:33:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911251953590.6085@shell.lmi.net>

On Mon, 25 Nov 2019, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote:
>  Things we historians talk about are ?firsts? and ?facts?. If we go to
> original source(s) maybe then we will get things right. I guess the best
> that can be said is we agree to disagree. A sad commentary in this age of
> what my ?facts? and your ?facts? are, are not the same but we historians
> should do our best to state ?firsts? and ?facts? are indeed that to the
> best of our knowledge. The 60 yrs. as noted was a math error and here I
> spent years as a BASIC, C and C++ programmer as isn?t mathematics the basis
> for all programming languages? Let's indeed toast to all micro-computing
> progenitors for making our hobby possible.

If we didn't make arithmetic errors, we couldn't prove that we are human 
(a variation/enhancement of a Turing test?)

"Facts" need to be checked for prior corruption of the stories, but are 
often traceable.
"Firsts" bother me, as they always seem to glorify a famous early guy, and 
ignore all those who came before, even if they had already done the 
supposed "first" activity.  Hence we get the "Jobs invented computers; 
Gates invented operating systems" nonsense.  So, I prefer "important" 
events, rather than "FIRST".

>  I?ve been a hobbyist and experimenter since the 1970s though I worked on
> mini-computers(PDP-8/11) in the 1960s. I got to work on them in high
> school; I know we were rather privileged.
>  For microcomputers it began in April 1978 when I built the Heathkit
> H8($2500 Cdn.) a computer based on the PDP-11 with 4K(B) of an 8K(B) card;
> now $2500 will buy a truly powerful home computer with 16/32GB of memory.
> My second, the Coleco ADAM, computer was Aug. 1984. A bit more powerful and
> more useful to be sure. Finally in 1989 I moved into the IBM PC world ? the
> Compaq Deskpro 386 which ran DOS, Lotus 1-2-3 and Windows 2 that could run
> Word and Excel. Wow! Notebooks followed.
>  And now(well Aug. 2019 to be precise) I built my own custom Mini-ITX PC
> from parts sourced here and there for $750 Cdn. This makes me nostalgic for
> the old days of computing we talk about on cctalk.


Rather similar backgrounds.

My father had taught me adding machines, keypunching, sorting machine, 
etc., and always had low-paying work for me to do.
On May 24, 1965, he called me from out of town and told me, "LEARN 
FORTRAN."  He had just had a bad experience with "professional" data 
processing by IBM (CBS "National Drivers Test"), and was going to 
IMMEDIATELY switch over to doing his own computer work.

So, we learned some FORTRAN.

I did keypunching and EAM work while in college, and was a data technician 
at Goddard Space Flight Center 1970-1972  (APL, FORTRAN, plotting 
subroutines)
Aerospace was collapsing, and I got out, but we were hearing about the 
coming "micro processor", so I declared that I would get back into 
computers "in about five years, when tabletop computers programmable in 
FORTRAN come out and get cheap enough for me."  (it turned out to be 
BASIC instead, and "tabletop" was not the name)

I built and ran an auto repair shop, until TRS80/PET/Apple caame out.
Even wrote a book on Honda car repair.
I got the first TRS80 available, and sold my auto shop to two of my 
employees.  They're still doing it, almost 40 years later.

I built and ran a small microcomputer business (small peripherals such as 
memory and disk drives, commercial software, and my software) and began 
community college teaching.

When IBM announced the PC, I said, "Whether it is good or bad, it is going 
to DOMINATE the market, and in only a few years, all microcomputers will 
be Imitations-of-IBM-PC, and 'all others'."  So, I got the first one that 
I could (end of 1981). I ran my business, and taught full-time for over 
30 years.   And put in enough work at UCBerkeley to get an MLIS and 
PhD/ABD

Seven years ago, I was completely overwhelmed having to take care of my 
mother 24 hours a day, along with serious health problems of my own.
So, no more business; no more teaching, for 4 years.
I started to write a textbook on Information Science.
I don't know what I'll do now.   I can't do the amount of stuff that I did 
decades ago.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From derschjo at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 22:35:39 2019
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 20:35:39 -0800
Subject: One old Sol, Two old names...
In-Reply-To: <13b001d5a403$2d09c5d0$871d5170$@verizon.net>
References: <13b001d5a403$2d09c5d0$871d5170$.ref@verizon.net>
 <13b001d5a403$2d09c5d0$871d5170$@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <CADBZjLYri+_2RdXuBOoSD4ELpPAx=g3JsnsmZXhUkyqQBO8O_A@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 6:43 PM William Sudbrink via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I've just had the pleasure of taking a new machine into my collection, a
> Sol
> 20.
>
> It's particularly interesting for several reasons.  First, it was once in
> the possession
>
> of Jim Willing (zoom into the label next to the control key):
>
>
>
> http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/fixed_sol/20191125_195224.jpg
>
>
>
> For those that don't know, Jim was a very early collector of vintage
> computers
>
> and one of the first collectors to put up a web site with pictures of his
> collection,
>
> scans of documents and the like.  Also, he was one of the first posters to
> the
>
> original classic computer mailing list:
>
>
>
> http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/cctalk/


Huh, small world!  I recently got the R80 drive that came with my
VAX-11/730 running, and was able to read an image of it -- which revealed
that the VAX previously belonged to Jim (and was apparently used to run his
BBS for a time).  I've been meaning to track him down -- does anyone know
if he's still around?

(Also, nice find.  Sol 20's are fun little computers.)

- Josh

From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Nov 25 23:04:47 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 21:04:47 -0800
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911251953590.6085@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911251953590.6085@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <99208c12-0b4b-592a-7d36-490341d5e044@sydex.com>

On 11/25/19 8:33 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> I don't know what I'll do now.?? I can't do the amount of stuff that I
> did decades ago.

What I've found with age is that nobody begrudges you for taking long
naps...

Zzzzzz,
--Chuck


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Nov 25 23:10:11 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 21:10:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911251953590.6085@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911251953590.6085@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911252101350.6085@shell.lmi.net>

On Mon, 25 Nov 2019, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote:
> A sad commentary in this age of what my ???facts??? and your ???facts??? 
> are, are not the same but we historians should do our best to state 
> ???firsts??? and ???facts??? are indeed that to the best of our 
> knowledge.

A typical instance of "The Blind Men And The Elephant".
Even if we go to original sources.

I've heard some interesting arguments between people who were in the 
military, industry and academia at the time, about the relative importance 
of those players in the creation of the internet.
None (well,FEW) are "wrong", but perceptions vary, because at the time it 
is impossible to see all of it at once.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com
From derschjo at gmail.com  Tue Nov 26 00:03:47 2019
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 22:03:47 -0800
Subject: TSS/8 on RK05
Message-ID: <CADBZjLZqo-6A-Pcbbx9ZLJBHrQviZQ=1-LgoDsRVuGF8L1G_kw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all --

We've wanted to run TSS/8 on one of our PDP-8 systems at LCM+L for a long
time now, and while we contemplated either (a) restoring our RF08 or (b)
building an RF08 emulator, I decided it might be fun to investigate a third
option: (c) modify TSS/8 to run off hardware we already have running,
namely an RK05 drive.

And it /was/ fun!  And seems to have been successful, as we now have TSS/8
running on our PDP-8/e.  Performance is acceptable, and it seems to be
stable so far.  The changes I made are here:

https://github.com/livingcomputermuseum/cpus-pdp8

This is a fork of a codebase that Brad Parker put together a number of
years back in which he did some serious work to get TSS/8 to build (amongst
other things).  I made use of this effort, which saved a lot of time and
made building/testing my changes quite straightforward.

I also modified the disk image:  It's extended to 1MW (the maximum possible
without modifying the filesystem code) and I ported a couple of extra
programs to TSS/8 (CHEKMO and LISP).

I figured some people here might also be able to take advantage of being
able to run TSS/8 from RK05.  I know RK8E's are pretty rare, but I'm also
guessing more people have them than have working fixed-head disks :).  If
you do give it a try, let me know if you run into any issues or if you have
any feature requests.

Thanks,
Josh

From jfoust at threedee.com  Tue Nov 26 06:44:34 2019
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 06:44:34 -0600
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <884bb78fd25c7bd5d26048f03fb9da57@alanlee.org>
References: <CAMvyYF8DJYwTkS-e0dOheZn-FL7+16T0969843ic=Nk-JKpUSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <884bb78fd25c7bd5d26048f03fb9da57@alanlee.org>
Message-ID: <20191126124725.DDE844E75A@mx2.ezwind.net>


"Since 2016, the AP stylebook now recommends lowercasing ?internet? 
and ?web.? Whenever you refer to the Internet as a proper noun 
(i.e. you are referring to the World Wide Web), then Internet 
should be capitalized. If you are referring to a general network 
of computers, then you can use the lowercase internet."

- John


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue Nov 26 08:24:59 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 09:24:59 -0500 (EST)
Subject: "First Internet message" and ...
Message-ID: <20191126142459.98AC018C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Brent Hilpert

    > Roughly, IP took care of a common addressing scheme and a common
    > packet presentation, TCP took care of end-to-end flow control.

Yes on IP, but TCP's main function is reliability - much of the mechanism of
TCP (sequence numbers, acknowledgements, timeouts and retransmissions, and
checksums) is all there for that.

    > As so much nowadays is about throwing ethernet frames around on
    > different types of links and network formats (not what ethernet was
    > originally designed for), some of the earlier diversity that made
    > 'interneting' necessary may no longer be there.

There is one aspect of internetworking (the original term - I probably should
have described PUP/CHAOS/XNS as 'internetworking protocols') which _is_
crucial, though - the multi-layer address space. We'd need that even if
_everything_ in the world used Ethernet frame headers.

If one tried to do path selection (usually called 'routing', but I don't use
that term as it can be confused with packet forwarding) using only 48-bit
interface identifiers, it just wouldn't scale to the size network we have
now. The ability to aggregate groups of hosts, so that a distant routing
table contains only a single entry for all of them, is crucial for scaling
purposes. Without that, routing tables would have to have billions
(literally; add up the numbers of different kinds of end-user devices -
laptops, etc) of entries.

(Heck, even XNS had network numbers, precisely for this reason. Although one
could build a system which has aggregatable addresses, used for path
selection, but hid them from the hosts, and used an 'invisible' mapping
system to translate from them to the aggregatable 'true' addresses. The LISP
networking system does this, as does the 800 and inter-provider portability
capability in the 'phone system - although in both cases the input and output
to the mapping system have identical syntax.)

Originally, IP had only two layers in the addressing - network # and 'rest',
then we added a third layer with 'subnets', and finally went to a potentially
multi-layer system with CIDR. (I'm not sure what ISPs are actually doing with
them now - I'm now out of touch with that world.)

    > It might be arguable whether we have an 'internet' any longer or just a
    > great big 'network' with different types of links.

I found Jack Haverty's message to the internet-history list about the
changing nature of 'the Internet', but alas the list archives are broken at
the moment, so no URL.

	Noel

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue Nov 26 10:14:42 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 11:14:42 -0500 (EST)
Subject: "First Internet message" and ...
Message-ID: <20191126161442.178B618C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

Ooops, editing error:

    > Although one could build a system which has aggregatable addresses, used
    > for path selection, but hid them from the hosts, and used an 'invisible'
    > mapping system to translate from them to the aggregatable 'true' addresses.

Should have been "to translate from the 'addresses' used by the hosts to the".


    > the changing nature of 'the Internet', but alas the list archives are
    > broken at the moment, so no URL

Here are Jack's thoughts on how 'the Internet' is no longer a true internet:

  Circa 1984, I remember giving lots of presentations where one theme was
  that we had spent the first 10 years of the Internet (taking the 1974
  TCP paper as the start) making it possible for every computer to talk
  with every other computer.BB  We would spend the next 10 years making it
  not possible to do such things, so that only communications that were
  permitted would be possible.

  Sadly, I'm not sure that ever happened.  The commercial world started
  adopting TCP big time.  The government decided to focus on using COTS -
  Commercial Off-The-Shelf hardware and software.  The Research world
  focused on things like faster and bigger networks.  At BBN, the focus
  shifted to X.25, SNA, and such stuff that promised a big marketplace.
  TCP had gone through 5 releases from TCP2 through TCP4 in just a few
  years, so remaining items on the To-Do list, like address space, were
  expected to be addressed shortly.

  I'm not sure if anyone ever conveyed this architecture to the IETF or
  all the vendors that were popping up with products to build
  Internet(s).  I think changes like NAT came about to solve pragmatic
  problems.  But that of course broke the "end-to-end" architecture, which
  would view NAT actions as those of an intruder or equipment failure.
  So TCP became no longer end-to-end.

  The Internet is typically viewed as a way to interconnect networks.  But
  I think it's evolved operationally to become the way to interconnect
  across administrative boundaries, where Autonomous Systems have become
  associated with different ISPs, other mechanisms are used by vendors to
  create their own walled gardens of services (e.g., "clouds" or
  "messaging"), and NAT is used at the edges to connect to users'
  internets.  The end-to-end nature is gone.

  But that's just based on my observations from the outside.  I don't have
  a clue as to what today's actual Internet Architecture is, other than a
  collection of RFCs and product manuals that may or may not reflect
  reality, or if there is anyone actually able to manage the
  architecture.  From my user's perspective, it's a Wild West out there.....

  And the definition of The Internet is still elusive.  I agree that the
  users' definition is the best working one -- The Internet is the thing
  I'm connected to to do what I do when I get "on the Net."

	Noel

From lbickley at bickleywest.com  Tue Nov 26 11:44:33 2019
From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 09:44:33 -0800
Subject: TSS/8 on RK05
In-Reply-To: <CADBZjLZqo-6A-Pcbbx9ZLJBHrQviZQ=1-LgoDsRVuGF8L1G_kw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADBZjLZqo-6A-Pcbbx9ZLJBHrQviZQ=1-LgoDsRVuGF8L1G_kw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20191126094433.53cc7dd1@asrock>

Josh,

THANK YOU (!) for the conversion of TSS from RF08 to RK05! I have a PDP-8/E
with and RK05 and it will be fun to get TSS/8 running again.

I had TSS/8 running years ago - on my PDP-12 and RF08 (w/2-disks!).
Unfortunately, I donated both to the CHM in the mid-90's - and they've been
sitting in their archives ever since :( 

Cheers,
Lyle
--

On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 22:03:47 -0800
Josh Dersch via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Hi all --
> 
> We've wanted to run TSS/8 on one of our PDP-8 systems at LCM+L for a long
> time now, and while we contemplated either (a) restoring our RF08 or (b)
> building an RF08 emulator, I decided it might be fun to investigate a third
> option: (c) modify TSS/8 to run off hardware we already have running,
> namely an RK05 drive.
> 
> And it /was/ fun!  And seems to have been successful, as we now have TSS/8
> running on our PDP-8/e.  Performance is acceptable, and it seems to be
> stable so far.  The changes I made are here:
> 
> https://github.com/livingcomputermuseum/cpus-pdp8
> 
> This is a fork of a codebase that Brad Parker put together a number of
> years back in which he did some serious work to get TSS/8 to build (amongst
> other things).  I made use of this effort, which saved a lot of time and
> made building/testing my changes quite straightforward.
> 
> I also modified the disk image:  It's extended to 1MW (the maximum possible
> without modifying the filesystem code) and I ported a couple of extra
> programs to TSS/8 (CHEKMO and LISP).
> 
> I figured some people here might also be able to take advantage of being
> able to run TSS/8 from RK05.  I know RK8E's are pretty rare, but I'm also
> guessing more people have them than have working fixed-head disks :).  If
> you do give it a try, let me know if you run into any issues or if you have
> any feature requests.
> 
> Thanks,
> Josh



-- 
73   NM6Y
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
https://bickleywest.com

"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"

From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Nov 26 12:32:39 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 10:32:39 -0800
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>

I figure the record will finally be set straight after all of the people
involved at time cited are dead.

Such is history.

--Chuck

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Tue Nov 26 13:15:34 2019
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 19:15:34 +0000
Subject: The information age
Message-ID: <BYAPR01MB560839EF75EA2990D077110FA3450@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>

It is such a shame that in the "information age", we have lost so much of the information. It doesn't help when we have people like Jobs that like to write their own version.
It is even worse when companies think it is a law suite risk to keep information more than a year. It is all lost.
"The information lost age"
Dwight


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Nov 26 13:40:04 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 11:40:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The information age
In-Reply-To: <BYAPR01MB560839EF75EA2990D077110FA3450@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <BYAPR01MB560839EF75EA2990D077110FA3450@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261134190.22418@shell.lmi.net>

On Tue, 26 Nov 2019, dwight via cctalk wrote:
> It is such a shame that in the "information age", we have lost so much 
> of the information. It doesn't help when we have people like Jobs that 
> like to write their own version.

As I understand it, he has personally stopped doing that.

> It is even worse when companies think it is a law suite risk to keep 
> information more than a year. It is all lost.

Not only the liability, but the assumption that it is being stored 
somewhere else, and therefore the physical forms are no more than an 
inconvenient waste of space.
(cf. 1970s purge of episodes of Doctor Who, and 2019 destruction of all 
YahooGroups files)


> "The information lost age"
It is written in sand.


From aperry at snowmoose.com  Tue Nov 26 14:00:27 2019
From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 12:00:27 -0800
Subject: The information age
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261134190.22418@shell.lmi.net>
References: <BYAPR01MB560839EF75EA2990D077110FA3450@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261134190.22418@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <5982cada-864d-f37b-a8dd-5e12fbe9f090@snowmoose.com>



On 11/26/19 11:40 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Nov 2019, dwight via cctalk wrote:
>> It is such a shame that in the "information age", we have lost so much 
>> of the information. It doesn't help when we have people like Jobs that 
>> like to write their own version.
> 
> As I understand it, he has personally stopped doing that.

The thing is that all histories are the writer's own version, even ones 
that try to record what "really" happened.

>> It is even worse when companies think it is a law suit risk to keep 
>> information more than a year. It is all lost.

Having been involved in intellectual property legal discovery, I will 
confirm that it can be a risk.

> 
> Not only the liability, but the assumption that it is being stored 
> somewhere else, and therefore the physical forms are no more than an 
> inconvenient waste of space.
> (cf. 1970s purge of episodes of Doctor Who, and 2019 destruction of all 
> YahooGroups files)


I have been involved with making sure that the content of a number of 
YahooGroups related to Lotus Cars is not lost. My computer spent 40 
hours backing up the 174000 messages posted to the Turbo Esprit group.

But, even if Yahoo hadn't shut it down, most of the info there was not 
really usable because there was no good way to search it. At least, now 
that we have been chased from Yahoo, the backups that I and others have 
made have been copied and spread all over, so it is better preserved, 
though not any more accessible.

alan

> 
> 
>> "The information lost age"
> It is written in sand.
> 

From ethan at 757.org  Tue Nov 26 14:45:39 2019
From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 15:45:39 -0500 (EST)
Subject: The information age
In-Reply-To: <BYAPR01MB560839EF75EA2990D077110FA3450@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <BYAPR01MB560839EF75EA2990D077110FA3450@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1911261544350.23042@users.757.org>

> It is such a shame that in the "information age", we have lost so much of the information. It doesn't help when we have people like Jobs that like to write their own version.
> It is even worse when companies think it is a law suite risk to keep information more than a year. It is all lost.
> "The information lost age"
> Dwight

We owe a ton of props to the Internet Archive. While they might not have 
everything, they have a glimpse into the early days of the internet and 
have been at it since early on.

                 - Ethan O'Toole



--
: Ethan O'Toole



From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Tue Nov 26 14:48:10 2019
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 20:48:10 +0000
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>

On 11/26/19 1:32 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> I figure the record will finally be set straight after all of the people
> involved at time cited are dead.
> 
> Such is history.
> 

You mean like how history says Columbus discovered America
and Marconi invented radio.  :-)

bill


From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Tue Nov 26 14:58:41 2019
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 20:58:41 +0000
Subject: The information age
In-Reply-To: <5982cada-864d-f37b-a8dd-5e12fbe9f090@snowmoose.com>
References: <BYAPR01MB560839EF75EA2990D077110FA3450@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261134190.22418@shell.lmi.net>,
 <5982cada-864d-f37b-a8dd-5e12fbe9f090@snowmoose.com>
Message-ID: <BYAPR01MB56084910D03AC64F7AD38B99A3450@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>

I have particular interest in early 4004 code. Intel is an empty box. It was just by luck that someone saved many of the original films of the 4004 chips. As for code, I've got a few bits and piece but little original source. I did find some stuff searching the Naval Post Graduate schools library. It is a good thing the government services hang on to things long after they have no value to them ( like 8 inch disk, haa ). Still, only 2 original sources, poorly pdf'ed. This was all work done by students of Gary Kildall ( you remember him, don't you ).
Most know Tom Pittman from his Tiny Basic on the 6502/6800. He also wrote the assembler that ran on a 4004 for the 4004. It was likely the first assembler written to run on same microprocessor. Intel supplied it on EPROMs but the only information I have so far is three of the four EPROMs with good data ( mostly good anyway ) and one almost empty EPROM.
I've contacted Tom about it but after moving from California, he said it is unlikely any of it remains. I keep meaning to make an adjustable threshold 1702 reader but have to many other projects on the fire.
What I did recover was almost lost, I got the ones I'd been looking for from a friend in Norway. He knew I was looking for the set. When he saw them in a pile of 1702s that were being sold, he saved them from being erased because he recognize the Intel EPROM number on the paper tags.
While off little practical use, these are important parts of the thread that brings us to the processors we have today. The loss would have been gone forever had some sharp eyes not noticed them.
Should anyone come across 1702s with A0740,A741,A0742 and especially A0743 tags on them, please don't erase them.
Dwight


________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Alan Perry via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2019 12:00 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: The information age



On 11/26/19 11:40 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Nov 2019, dwight via cctalk wrote:
>> It is such a shame that in the "information age", we have lost so much
>> of the information. It doesn't help when we have people like Jobs that
>> like to write their own version.
>
> As I understand it, he has personally stopped doing that.

The thing is that all histories are the writer's own version, even ones
that try to record what "really" happened.

>> It is even worse when companies think it is a law suit risk to keep
>> information more than a year. It is all lost.

Having been involved in intellectual property legal discovery, I will
confirm that it can be a risk.

>
> Not only the liability, but the assumption that it is being stored
> somewhere else, and therefore the physical forms are no more than an
> inconvenient waste of space.
> (cf. 1970s purge of episodes of Doctor Who, and 2019 destruction of all
> YahooGroups files)


I have been involved with making sure that the content of a number of
YahooGroups related to Lotus Cars is not lost. My computer spent 40
hours backing up the 174000 messages posted to the Turbo Esprit group.

But, even if Yahoo hadn't shut it down, most of the info there was not
really usable because there was no good way to search it. At least, now
that we have been chased from Yahoo, the backups that I and others have
made have been copied and spread all over, so it is better preserved,
though not any more accessible.

alan

>
>
>> "The information lost age"
> It is written in sand.
>

From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Tue Nov 26 16:16:16 2019
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 14:16:16 -0800
Subject: Key for IBM 9370 - 20
Message-ID: <3a3be843-e9ee-7d5c-73d4-592de3c9e3f8@jwsss.com>

I posted on the discord channel looking for information on measuring the 
keys (ACE cylinder locks) for duplication.

I'm including a quote from a post by Jay on the subject.? I need to get 
the information on measuring the depths of the cuts, as the postings 
I've found don't mention how the depths are measured for each value.

I have an ACE key for an IBM 9370 mod 20 I'm measuring. Found a post by 
Jay from 2016
Jay West jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Mar 18 15:57:30 CDT 2016
------------------------------------------------------------------------
FYI - the key codes I measured previously for Data General and HP have 
been cut, tested, and verified. Amazingly, my measurements were correct. 
So to summarize: XX2247 Code: 5173757 Use: DEC PDP-8 (all varieties), 
PDP-11 machines that do not use an ACE blank (11/24, 11/44)
Anyone have a reference on the depths of the Code values? There's 
another post with depths, but not explicitly calling out what each 
number equates to.
My master has a DND legend on the back, so I will need to get a copy cut 
and tested via codes, and will publish it when I find out that it works.
Dennis Boone post:
Allegedly Control Data used a National C415A on Network Processing Unit 
cabinets in the late 70s, early 80s. That's an Ilco 1069-N, cuts are 
12343 from bow to tip. Cut spacings are .156 .249 .342 .435 .528. Depths 
are 1=.250 2=.225 3=.200 4=.175.
The Boone post has numbers, but they make no sense WRT the post Jay 
posted (which has 7 depth values)
Also need to know if metric or inches.

From rich.cini at verizon.net  Tue Nov 26 16:33:07 2019
From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 22:33:07 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Key for IBM 9370 - 20
In-Reply-To: <3a3be843-e9ee-7d5c-73d4-592de3c9e3f8@jwsss.com>
References: <3a3be843-e9ee-7d5c-73d4-592de3c9e3f8@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <DC5D576988FE52C0.F1DDBE47-F3D5-4CDE-962F-8BBBA8D1833A@mail.outlook.com>

              	I think there was a long thread about this in the DEC section of the VCFED site. Sticky, so at the top of the forum.?
    	    	
    	Get Outlook for iOS      



On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 5:16 PM -0500, "jim stephens via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:










I posted on the discord channel looking for information on measuring the 
keys (ACE cylinder locks) for duplication.

I'm including a quote from a post by Jay on the subject.? I need to get 
the information on measuring the depths of the cuts, as the postings 
I've found don't mention how the depths are measured for each value.

I have an ACE key for an IBM 9370 mod 20 I'm measuring. Found a post by 
Jay from 2016
Jay West jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Mar 18 15:57:30 CDT 2016
------------------------------------------------------------------------
FYI - the key codes I measured previously for Data General and HP have 
been cut, tested, and verified. Amazingly, my measurements were correct. 
So to summarize: XX2247 Code: 5173757 Use: DEC PDP-8 (all varieties), 
PDP-11 machines that do not use an ACE blank (11/24, 11/44)
Anyone have a reference on the depths of the Code values? There's 
another post with depths, but not explicitly calling out what each 
number equates to.
My master has a DND legend on the back, so I will need to get a copy cut 
and tested via codes, and will publish it when I find out that it works.
Dennis Boone post:
Allegedly Control Data used a National C415A on Network Processing Unit 
cabinets in the late 70s, early 80s. That's an Ilco 1069-N, cuts are 
12343 from bow to tip. Cut spacings are .156 .249 .342 .435 .528. Depths 
are 1=.250 2=.225 3=.200 4=.175.
The Boone post has numbers, but they make no sense WRT the post Jay 
posted (which has 7 depth values)
Also need to know if metric or inches.






From drb at msu.edu  Tue Nov 26 16:40:44 2019
From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 17:40:44 -0500
Subject: Key for IBM 9370 - 20
In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 26 Nov 2019 14:16:16 -0800.)
 <3a3be843-e9ee-7d5c-73d4-592de3c9e3f8@jwsss.com>
References: <3a3be843-e9ee-7d5c-73d4-592de3c9e3f8@jwsss.com> 
Message-ID: <20191126224044.5E0ED25F4B2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>

 > I need to get the information on measuring the depths of the cuts, as
 > the postings I've found don't mention how the depths are measured for
 > each value.
 
For Chicago/ACE, cut depths from 1 to 8 respectively are:
0.0155" 0.0310" 0.0465" 0.0620" 0.0775" 0.093" 0.1085" 0.1240"

For Fort/GEM, depths are numbered 0 to 7, but the measurements are the
same as for Chicago/ACE.

Looking into the end of the key, pin numbering is:

Chicago: #1 at eleven o'clock, proceed counterclockwise to #7 at one
o'clock.

Fort: #1 at one o'clock, proceed clockwise to #7 at eleven o'clock.

Presumably they had to avoid a patent. ;)

Offset rotations of the pin placements are possible.  The non-rotated
kind has the indexing pin halfway between pins 1 and 7.  For Fort/GEM,
if the #1 pin is further from the indexing pin, it's "left offset"; the
opposite direction is "right offset".

Secondary cuts are possible, where there's another channel cut into the
same rotation as the primary cut, but shallower into the wall, and
further along the length of the wall.  Hopefully that's not involved
here.

 > I have an ACE key for an IBM 9370 mod 20 I'm measuring.

Questions -

Does it have a number stamped on it?  I'll try to look it up if so.

Do you know if these are per-machine, or all machines the same?  I'd
like to collect the data in case it's the latter.

De

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Nov 26 16:41:35 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 14:41:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Key for IBM 9370 - 20
In-Reply-To: <3a3be843-e9ee-7d5c-73d4-592de3c9e3f8@jwsss.com>
References: <3a3be843-e9ee-7d5c-73d4-592de3c9e3f8@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261430240.22418@shell.lmi.net>

On Tue, 26 Nov 2019, jim stephens via cctalk wrote:
> I posted on the discord channel looking for information on measuring the keys 
> (ACE cylinder locks) for duplication.
> I'm including a quote from a post by Jay on the subject.? I need to get the 
> information on measuring the depths of the cuts, as the postings I've found 
> don't mention how the depths are measured for each value.

With a depth mike (or improvise) laid across the face of the key, measure 
how deep the cylinder "section" cut is.

There is nothing stopping a manufacturer from using different depths 
and/or different nomenclature (for instance, Schlage and Kwikset house 
keys have different depths, and different numberings)
Besides depth, there are a couple of differnt spacings (7 V 8 cuts?), and 
even different center peg diameters (hence the cheap pick tools on e-Bay 
have 3 variations 7.2mm, 7.5 and 7.8)
But, fortunately, most follow the leader.

In SOME localities, code cutting is severely restricted, and sometimes 
requires that you provide proof of ownership of the lock (physically bring 
it in and/or formal request on your letterhead)

If you have the lock in hand, many locksmiths will ignore the DND, 
assuming thet YOU are the one placing that there.
'course some will duplicate a key with a piece of tape over the DND!

The numbers stamped on the key rarely correspond algorithmically to the 
depths.  Instead, they are a pseudo-random identification of the key, and 
a well equipped locksmith can look those up in a "Code Book" to get the 
depths that are required.
For example, XX2247 is one of the most common for minicomputers.


There are also "Depgh And Space" books that identify the distance between 
cuts, and what depth distance corresponds to what depth number.  But, here 
is THAT information:

On Mon, 25 Apr 2011, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> Not sure about tolerances (my brother is a locksmith but I'm not), but
> according to...
>
http://www.locksafesystems.com/depth_and_space.htm#Chicago_Tubular_Space_and
_Depth
> The depths by number are:
> 1 - 0.0155"
> 2 - 0.0310"
> 3 - 0.0465"
> 4 - 0.0620"
> 5 - 0.0775"
> 6 - 0.093"
> 7 - 0.1085"
> 8 - 0.1240"


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Nov 26 16:57:17 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 14:57:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Key for IBM 9370 - 20
In-Reply-To: <DC5D576988FE52C0.F1DDBE47-F3D5-4CDE-962F-8BBBA8D1833A@mail.outlook.com>
References: <3a3be843-e9ee-7d5c-73d4-592de3c9e3f8@jwsss.com>
 <DC5D576988FE52C0.F1DDBE47-F3D5-4CDE-962F-8BBBA8D1833A@mail.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261454220.22418@shell.lmi.net>

On Tue, 26 Nov 2019, Richard Cini via cctalk wrote:
>              	I think there was a long thread about this in the DEC 
> section of the VCFED site. Sticky, so at the top of the forum.?

and here.

look since 2011 for subject lines containing "XX2247", and/or "Ace Key" 
I have some of those posts, so let me know if you want a hand finding 
them.

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Nov 26 18:00:58 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 16:00:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Key for IBM 9370 - 20
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261430240.22418@shell.lmi.net>
References: <3a3be843-e9ee-7d5c-73d4-592de3c9e3f8@jwsss.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261430240.22418@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261448490.22418@shell.lmi.net>

For $60 or $70 on eBay, you can get the KLOM tubular key cutter.  It is 
similar, but not the same as the more expensive HPC TKM-90 "Pocket Cut-Up"


With a little careful work, you CAN cut them with a drill press.

From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Tue Nov 26 18:27:18 2019
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 16:27:18 -0800
Subject: Key for IBM 9370 - 20
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261448490.22418@shell.lmi.net>
References: <3a3be843-e9ee-7d5c-73d4-592de3c9e3f8@jwsss.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261430240.22418@shell.lmi.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261448490.22418@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <9542f9d0-9141-e304-3d34-e4568bf5b375@jwsss.com>



On 11/26/2019 4:00 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> For $60 or $70 on eBay, you can get the KLOM tubular key cutter.? It 
> is similar, but not the same as the more expensive HPC TKM-90 "Pocket 
> Cut-Up"
>
>
> With a little careful work, you CAN cut them with a drill press.
>
>
Thanks everyone, Fred, Richard and Dennis.? Dennis's numbers line up 
with the measurements I have, so can get a code.

I didn't know what to look for for a cutter, thanks, Fred.

A friend in KCMO has a contact that cuts any key with the code numbers 
that Jay / Dennis have published, will get him
to cut a key. He charges $6.00 and is a locksmith. The system is 
currently in Kansas City, Mo, and he can try it to see if it works,
and we can tune any errors out.

Dennis, the Key is "IBM" logo with the stripped logo style on one side 
of the handle of the key, and DND legend on
the other.? Suggests either all are the same, not requiring a code, or 
they just didn't bother because they're IBM.

I'll publish it and email Dennis and Jay to be sure that the code gets 
saved.
Thanks
Jim

From steven at malikoff.com  Tue Nov 26 18:50:47 2019
From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 10:50:47 +1000
Subject: Key for IBM 9370 - 20
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261448490.22418@shell.lmi.net>
References: <3a3be843-e9ee-7d5c-73d4-592de3c9e3f8@jwsss.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261430240.22418@shell.lmi.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261448490.22418@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <a700115921a8b3b86e64a259275a168a.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>

Fred said
> For $60 or $70 on eBay, you can get the KLOM tubular key cutter.  It is
> similar, but not the same as the more expensive HPC TKM-90 "Pocket Cut-Up"
>
>
> With a little careful work, you CAN cut them with a drill press.

The barrel key sounds like something that could be done in OpenSCAD, parametrically, and
printed in metal from Shapeways. For instance they have a 60% steel / 40% bronze mix as
well as others.


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Nov 26 19:11:06 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 17:11:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Key for IBM 9370 - 20
In-Reply-To: <9542f9d0-9141-e304-3d34-e4568bf5b375@jwsss.com>
References: <3a3be843-e9ee-7d5c-73d4-592de3c9e3f8@jwsss.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261430240.22418@shell.lmi.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261448490.22418@shell.lmi.net>
 <9542f9d0-9141-e304-3d34-e4568bf5b375@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261652150.22418@shell.lmi.net>

On Tue, 26 Nov 2019, jim stephens via cctalk wrote:
> I didn't know what to look for for a cutter, thanks, Fred.

There are much better ones, for a price.
The HPC TKM90 is better.  ~$350
The Herty Gerty? is better. ~$380
HPC Duplicode  ~$1000?
The KLOM is the cheapest by far.
I don't see a frequent enough need to spend the money.

Many of the tubular key picks can also be used to decode the key and/or 
the lock after it is picked open.


> Dennis, the Key is "IBM" logo with the stripped logo style on one side of the 
> handle of the key, and DND legend on
> the other.? Suggests either all are the same, not requiring a code, or they 
> just didn't bother because they're IBM.

Sometimes they are all the same.
Sometimes machines come with a dummy lock for anything that will fit the 
keyhole; sometimes an extra-price option for a real lock
Sometimes there is no printed code.
Sometimes the code is stamped on a key, sometimes it is not.
Sometimes it will be on the face of the lock.
Sometimes it will be on the back of the lock.
Sometimes it will be on a piece inside the lock.
Sometimes it is on the original paperwork with a admonishment to save it, 
or on a paper tag tied to the original key.
OT: On a Datsun 280ZX, it is on a paper label inside the glove box
On some cars it is on ONE of the lock cylinders inside ONE of the doors.
(it helps to have access to such information in advance)

From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Nov 26 19:18:55 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 17:18:55 -0800
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>

On 11/26/19 12:48 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> On 11/26/19 1:32 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>> I figure the record will finally be set straight after all of the people
>> involved at time cited are dead.
>>
>> Such is history.
>>
> 
> You mean like how history says Columbus discovered America...

And Edison invented the incandescent lamp.

--Chuck

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Tue Nov 26 19:25:51 2019
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 20:25:51 -0500
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+ddZk-7WZk9YuvsEdb8JSQwJuFbpWRVLuF1v6T+5FpwauQ@mail.gmail.com>

> > You mean like how history says Columbus discovered America...
>
> And Edison invented the incandescent lamp.

And Digital invented the minicomputer.



...we are just as guilty...

--
Will

From mechanic_2 at charter.net  Tue Nov 26 19:28:36 2019
From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 19:28:36 -0600
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <CANij+ddZk-7WZk9YuvsEdb8JSQwJuFbpWRVLuF1v6T+5FpwauQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <CANij+ddZk-7WZk9YuvsEdb8JSQwJuFbpWRVLuF1v6T+5FpwauQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5DDDD144.2000407@charter.net>

Will,
     And IBM invented the Personal Computer.
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!

On 11/26/2019 7:25 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:
>>> You mean like how history says Columbus discovered America...
>> And Edison invented the incandescent lamp.
> And Digital invented the minicomputer.
>
>
>
> ...we are just as guilty...
>
> --
> Will
>


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Nov 26 19:31:57 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 17:31:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261724130.22418@shell.lmi.net>

On Tue, 26 Nov 2019, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>> I figure the record will finally be set straight after all of the 
>> people involved at time cited are dead.

> And Edison invented the incandescent lamp.

Light bulbs, automobiles, personal computers were all ideas that were 
OBVIOUS and inevitable.  Often present in science fiction.   So, people 
see an "important" person (that THEY have heard of) who was good at 
marketing, or engineering to make it marketable, and declare that one to 
have "invented" it.  And schoolteachers pass on their misconceptions.
Sometimes the record is finally "set straight" to an authoritaative form 
that is nowhere near correct.


From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Tue Nov 26 19:33:04 2019
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 20:33:04 -0500
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <5DDDD144.2000407@charter.net>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <CANij+ddZk-7WZk9YuvsEdb8JSQwJuFbpWRVLuF1v6T+5FpwauQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5DDDD144.2000407@charter.net>
Message-ID: <CANij+dfyURKMXvzUAhL+Sz57HLa9iK6TgKx3mbX9fk4gx4Bv5Q@mail.gmail.com>

>      And IBM invented the Personal Computer.

No.

We already established that Steve Jobs did that. Please pay attention.

--
Will

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Nov 26 19:39:29 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 17:39:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dfyURKMXvzUAhL+Sz57HLa9iK6TgKx3mbX9fk4gx4Bv5Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <CANij+ddZk-7WZk9YuvsEdb8JSQwJuFbpWRVLuF1v6T+5FpwauQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5DDDD144.2000407@charter.net>
 <CANij+dfyURKMXvzUAhL+Sz57HLa9iK6TgKx3mbX9fk4gx4Bv5Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261738120.22418@shell.lmi.net>

>>      And IBM invented the Personal Computer.
> No.
> We already established that Steve Jobs did that. Please pay attention.

Where do you suppose he picked up such heretical revisionist ideas?

From mechanic_2 at charter.net  Tue Nov 26 19:45:47 2019
From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 19:45:47 -0600
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261738120.22418@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <CANij+ddZk-7WZk9YuvsEdb8JSQwJuFbpWRVLuF1v6T+5FpwauQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5DDDD144.2000407@charter.net>
 <CANij+dfyURKMXvzUAhL+Sz57HLa9iK6TgKx3mbX9fk4gx4Bv5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261738120.22418@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <5DDDD54B.5050309@charter.net>

Fred,
     I'm not stating that IBM invented the PC. I am stating that IBM 
says it invented the PC. Yeah right. I actually believe that it was 
Commodore that invented the Personal Computer for they were the first 
company to come out with an affordable home computer system that was 
very flexible. Of course this is my opinion.
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!

On 11/26/2019 7:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>>>      And IBM invented the Personal Computer.
>> No.
>> We already established that Steve Jobs did that. Please pay attention.
>
> Where do you suppose he picked up such heretical revisionist ideas?
>


From teoz at neo.rr.com  Tue Nov 26 20:09:40 2019
From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 21:09:40 -0500
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <51E168504CC648FABED8E808A5103085@teoPC>

Patents are generally used to document who invented what first. Commercial 
success building on old research and patents tends to be what is remembered.

So what if some guy in 1761 heated up a wire until it glowed releasing 
light, it took many people over a long time to come up with a usable cheap 
light bulb design and the inventions that brought electricity into cities 
and peoples houses to power those bulbs that people will remember.

The only reason Apple sold so many Apple II's was because some software 
designer came out with Visicalc. So many machines were sold that they ended 
up cheap enough and useful enough to end up in schools and homes where 
before they were only sold to corporations. IBM's release of the PC with 
open architecture and all the people who cloned it and made software and 
hardware for it that IBM never envisioned is the reason X86/X64 is so 
dominant not that is was the first or the best.

The people who invented something epic tend to not have commercial success 
because pretty much most ground breaking patents tend to expire before they 
truly become useful and because of the need for other inventions to make 
them commercially usable.

-----Original Message----- 
From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2019 8:18 PM
To: Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
Subject: Re: First Internet message and ...

On 11/26/19 12:48 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> On 11/26/19 1:32 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>> I figure the record will finally be set straight after all of the people
>> involved at time cited are dead.
>>
>> Such is history.
>>
>
> You mean like how history says Columbus discovered America...

And Edison invented the incandescent lamp.

--Chuck 


From cube1 at charter.net  Tue Nov 26 20:12:01 2019
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 20:12:01 -0600
Subject: TSS/8 on RK05
In-Reply-To: <CADBZjLZqo-6A-Pcbbx9ZLJBHrQviZQ=1-LgoDsRVuGF8L1G_kw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADBZjLZqo-6A-Pcbbx9ZLJBHrQviZQ=1-LgoDsRVuGF8L1G_kw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f9ceb70a-4a3d-c8c7-cd2b-a70a30b7e455@charter.net>

On 11/26/2019 12:03 AM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote:

> Hi all --
> 
> We've wanted to run TSS/8 on one of our PDP-8 systems at LCM+L for a long
> time now, and while we contemplated either (a) restoring our RF08 or (b)
> building an RF08 emulator, I decided it might be fun to investigate a third
> option: (c) modify TSS/8 to run off hardware we already have running,
> namely an RK05 drive.
> 
> And it /was/ fun!  And seems to have been successful, as we now have TSS/8

FYI, I have most of an RF08/RS08 in my collection, that would not mind a
suitable foster home.  If you have one you are contemplating restoring
then maybe, ala C3PO I would say:  "You must repair him!  Sir, if any of
my circuits or gears will help, I'll gladly donate them".

https://www.computercollection.net/index.php/disk-drives/#RF08RS08

JRJ


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Nov 26 20:37:36 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 18:37:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <5DDDD54B.5050309@charter.net>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <CANij+ddZk-7WZk9YuvsEdb8JSQwJuFbpWRVLuF1v6T+5FpwauQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5DDDD144.2000407@charter.net>
 <CANij+dfyURKMXvzUAhL+Sz57HLa9iK6TgKx3mbX9fk4gx4Bv5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261738120.22418@shell.lmi.net>
 <5DDDD54B.5050309@charter.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261749440.22418@shell.lmi.net>

On Tue, 26 Nov 2019, Richard Pope wrote:
> Fred,
>    I'm not stating that IBM invented the PC. I am stating that IBM says it 
> invented the PC. Yeah right. I actually believe that it was Commodore that 
> invented the Personal Computer for they were the first company to come out 
> with an affordable home computer system that was very flexible. Of course 
> this is my opinion.
> GOD Bless and Thanks,
> rich!

Well, it has all the makings of a great holy war, although not as 
fascinating as vi V emacs.

After most of the Cat people were killed in the holy war over RED V BLUE 
hats, Cloister The Stupid (Lister) revealed that he had intended the hats 
to be GREEN.


I consider Commodore PET, TRS80, and Apple to be an exact TIE! (along with 
a whole bunch of tiny guys who nobody remembers).

Did it really matter whether Alexander Graham Bell or Elisha Gray filed 
the patent earliest in that day?  (There were a few other issues, such as 
Bell's people manipulating patent examiner)

When we look at which computer was first, are we looking at
First successful prototype
First instance of a finished machine
First announced
First advertised
First demo'd
First shown at a significant trade show
First manufactured
First one sold or available for sale
First one that did not require pre-order
First one shipped
First one that could be bought off the shelf

None of the three were first on ALL of those, so it becomes which are most 
important, or chosen to be the DEFINITION of "FIRST"
For me, TRS80 was the first one that I was able to purchase and carry 
home, but the other two were not significantly behind, if I were to have 
been less impatient and research my choice.   Both of the other two were 
"on the market", but I couldn't get my hands on either for at least 
another month.
I preferred the Apple hardware expandability, but I couldn't get one until 
later, and for more money.

At the time, I could have purchased an S100 computer, or a few others, 
(PET/TRS80/Apple were far from being the first!) but I could buy the 
TRS80 for $400 plus tax ($600 with monitor and casette, but I used my own).
I had a few B&W composite input monitors from Sony CV and AV videotape, 
and just had to make a cable from 5 pin DIN to UHF connector.

Nothing else was available that had a high level language for less 
than $1000.   BASIC was close enough to FORTRAN to satisfy my original 
"requirement".
So, those three were the first in MY price range.


Even when the IBM PC (5150 - "a danger to itself and others") was 
released (August 12, 1981), there was a waiting list of months to be able 
to get one.
(about $1230? plus Floppy controller, Video board, and RS232, plus my own 
RAM, drives and monitor.  The oft-quoted $1565 included an over-priced 
monitor - "well, you certainly can't USE one without a monitor!")
Fortunately, I was able to get the "Technical Reference Manual" (with 
schematics and source for the BIOS!) well before the machine itself.


From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Tue Nov 26 20:43:35 2019
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 18:43:35 -0800
Subject: Key for IBM 9370 - 20
In-Reply-To: <20191126224044.5E0ED25F4B2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
References: <3a3be843-e9ee-7d5c-73d4-592de3c9e3f8@jwsss.com>
 <20191126224044.5E0ED25F4B2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <e8e3aaa6-eef6-f1f9-7ed1-4084f2ebcd12@jwsss.com>



On 11/26/2019 2:40 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote:
> For Chicago/ACE, cut depths from 1 to 8 respectively are:
> 0.0155" 0.0310" 0.0465" 0.0620" 0.0775" 0.093" 0.1085" 0.1240"
>
> For Fort/GEM, depths are numbered 0 to 7, but the measurements are the
> same as for Chicago/ACE.
>
> Looking into the end of the key, pin numbering is:
>
> Chicago: #1 at eleven o'clock, proceed counterclockwise to #7 at one
> o'clock.
I found another reference.? different numbers slightly.

https://www.lockpicking101.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=42870

There are a couple different numbering systems. The pin lengths are the 
same, but the number
given to that particular length is different. Fort Lock, such as the Gem 
and Apex locks go clockwise
if you are looking down the barrel of the key from the tip. The Chicago 
Ace style goes counter-clockwise.
Fort Lock numbers them from 1-8 while Chicago goes 0-7.

Fort Lock/Chicago Ace/Depth of cut
1----------0----------.016"
2----------1----------.032"
3----------2----------.048"
4----------3----------.064"
5----------4----------.080"
6----------5----------.096"
7----------6----------.112"
8----------7----------.128"

What I have measured so far.? This starts with the index up, first slot 
to the right, going CCW.

Index pin? meas value

 ????????????????depth


 1.

     ?.0460 ? 3

 2.

     ?.0770 ? 5

 3.

     ?.0770 ? 5

 4.

     ?.1090 ? 7

 5.

     ?.0460 ? 3

 6.

     ?.0795 ? 5

 7.

     ?.1080 ? 7


Here are photos of the key.

https://imgur.com/a/yCPwaR0


--30--

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Tue Nov 26 20:43:52 2019
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 19:43:52 -0700
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <51E168504CC648FABED8E808A5103085@teoPC>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <51E168504CC648FABED8E808A5103085@teoPC>
Message-ID: <6a90f74b-56c3-b682-8f3b-d453a09a0ec4@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 11/26/2019 7:09 PM, TeoZ via cctalk wrote:
>
> The only reason Apple sold so many Apple II's was because some software 
> designer came out with Visicalc. So many machines were sold that they 
> ended up cheap enough and useful enough to end up in schools and homes 
> where before they were only sold to corporations. IBM's release of the 
> PC with open architecture and all the people who cloned it and made 
> software and hardware for it that IBM never envisioned is the reason 
> X86/X64 is so dominant not that is was the first or the best.
>
But the stange thing now, all the 8 bitters are making a come back
like the z80 with CP/M (USA) and the 6502 with BBC Micro (UK).
What ever happened to all the wierd early transitor computers that were 
like 48+ bits and 4K of core memory hit the surplus market in the mid
1970's?



From mechanic_2 at charter.net  Tue Nov 26 20:49:22 2019
From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 20:49:22 -0600
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261749440.22418@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <CANij+ddZk-7WZk9YuvsEdb8JSQwJuFbpWRVLuF1v6T+5FpwauQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5DDDD144.2000407@charter.net>
 <CANij+dfyURKMXvzUAhL+Sz57HLa9iK6TgKx3mbX9fk4gx4Bv5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261738120.22418@shell.lmi.net>
 <5DDDD54B.5050309@charter.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261749440.22418@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <5DDDE432.2010900@charter.net>

Fred,
     You are correct in your assessment. Which was first? The Altair and 
IMSAI had been available for years but you almost had to be an engineer 
to build them and use them. So were they first? I don't believe so 
because the average idiot couldn't get them to work. They were too much 
trouble, work, and they cost too much.
     I consider the VIC-20 to be the first Home Computer or Personal 
Computer. It was inexpensive, had good color graphics, good sound, was 
easy to program, use, and was easy to expand. So I consider Commodore to 
be the inventor of the PC. Just my opinion. Again which was truly first? 
What about the Amiga. The first multitasking multiprocessing computer 
with outstanding graphics, sound, and expandability for a reasonable 
price. It was also truly plug and play.
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!

On 11/26/2019 8:37 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Nov 2019, Richard Pope wrote:
>> Fred,
>>    I'm not stating that IBM invented the PC. I am stating that IBM 
>> says it invented the PC. Yeah right. I actually believe that it was 
>> Commodore that invented the Personal Computer for they were the first 
>> company to come out with an affordable home computer system that was 
>> very flexible. Of course this is my opinion.
>> GOD Bless and Thanks,
>> rich!
>
> Well, it has all the makings of a great holy war, although not as 
> fascinating as vi V emacs.
>
> After most of the Cat people were killed in the holy war over RED V 
> BLUE hats, Cloister The Stupid (Lister) revealed that he had intended 
> the hats to be GREEN.
>
>
> I consider Commodore PET, TRS80, and Apple to be an exact TIE! (along 
> with a whole bunch of tiny guys who nobody remembers).
>
> Did it really matter whether Alexander Graham Bell or Elisha Gray 
> filed the patent earliest in that day?  (There were a few other 
> issues, such as Bell's people manipulating patent examiner)
>
> When we look at which computer was first, are we looking at
> First successful prototype
> First instance of a finished machine
> First announced
> First advertised
> First demo'd
> First shown at a significant trade show
> First manufactured
> First one sold or available for sale
> First one that did not require pre-order
> First one shipped
> First one that could be bought off the shelf
>
> None of the three were first on ALL of those, so it becomes which are 
> most important, or chosen to be the DEFINITION of "FIRST"
> For me, TRS80 was the first one that I was able to purchase and carry 
> home, but the other two were not significantly behind, if I were to 
> have been less impatient and research my choice.   Both of the other 
> two were "on the market", but I couldn't get my hands on either for at 
> least another month.
> I preferred the Apple hardware expandability, but I couldn't get one 
> until later, and for more money.
>
> At the time, I could have purchased an S100 computer, or a few others, 
> (PET/TRS80/Apple were far from being the first!) but I could buy the 
> TRS80 for $400 plus tax ($600 with monitor and casette, but I used my 
> own).
> I had a few B&W composite input monitors from Sony CV and AV 
> videotape, and just had to make a cable from 5 pin DIN to UHF connector.
>
> Nothing else was available that had a high level language for less 
> than $1000.   BASIC was close enough to FORTRAN to satisfy my original 
> "requirement".
> So, those three were the first in MY price range.
>
>
> Even when the IBM PC (5150 - "a danger to itself and others") was 
> released (August 12, 1981), there was a waiting list of months to be 
> able to get one.
> (about $1230? plus Floppy controller, Video board, and RS232, plus my 
> own RAM, drives and monitor.  The oft-quoted $1565 included an 
> over-priced monitor - "well, you certainly can't USE one without a 
> monitor!")
> Fortunately, I was able to get the "Technical Reference Manual" (with 
> schematics and source for the BIOS!) well before the machine itself.
>
>


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Nov 26 20:51:23 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 18:51:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <51E168504CC648FABED8E808A5103085@teoPC>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <51E168504CC648FABED8E808A5103085@teoPC>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261838170.22418@shell.lmi.net>

On Tue, 26 Nov 2019, TeoZ via cctalk wrote:
> The only reason Apple sold so many Apple II's was because some software 
> designer came out with Visicalc.

Dan Bricklin and Bob Frankston  ("Software Arts")
They sold it through "Personal Software", who became "VisiCorp"
http://www.bricklin.com/history/sai.htm

Frankly, I think that word processing was more responsible than 
spreadsheet for microcomputer sales.
But, Apple had a headstart by having both.

A far from complete and only partially chronological list:
Electric Pencil  (Michael Shrayer)
Electric Pencil for CP/M  (with a program to transfer files from Electric 
Pencil disks to and from CP/M disks)
Wordstar for CP/M (MicroPro (later WordStar, Inc))
Easy Writer (Apple II, by John Draper)
Scripsit (TRS80)
Electric Pencil for TRS80
Easy Writer for IBm PC
Wordstar for PC
Electric Pencil for PC (Harv Pennington)
Microsoft Word  (PC and Apple)
WordPervert
PC-Write (Bob Wallace)




From aperry at snowmoose.com  Tue Nov 26 20:52:17 2019
From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 18:52:17 -0800
Subject: Scanning docs for bitsavers
Message-ID: <e4810c1e-cb62-122d-3934-30bd06e1c5f1@snowmoose.com>


I am going through stuff in my office and found that I have some SCSI 
device docs that aren't on bitsavers. As far as multi-page documents, it 
seems as if my scanner (or its software) only does uncompressed TIFF. At 
bitsaver's recommended 400 dpi, that means about 4M per page.

What should I do? Scan the docs in and find a tool to convert to 
lossless compression. Scan the docs in and just submit the huge files? 
Something else?

The docs that I have are copies, not originals. Does anyone here want 
them after I scan them?

alan

From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Tue Nov 26 20:59:49 2019
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 21:59:49 -0500
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <5DDDD54B.5050309@charter.net>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <CANij+ddZk-7WZk9YuvsEdb8JSQwJuFbpWRVLuF1v6T+5FpwauQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5DDDD144.2000407@charter.net>
 <CANij+dfyURKMXvzUAhL+Sz57HLa9iK6TgKx3mbX9fk4gx4Bv5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261738120.22418@shell.lmi.net>
 <5DDDD54B.5050309@charter.net>
Message-ID: <1a0a87e7-42b6-ee4f-c79f-8f33bbd1e9c5@alembic.crystel.com>

I would make a strong argument that DEC invented the PC: Twice actually. 
The PDT11/150 is a pretty amazing system: 64k of memory, serial port, 
printer port, RT11 operating system and if I recall correctly someone 
wrote a version of Visicalc and a nice word processor on it as a 
demonstration.

Unfortunately Dec saw that such a system would cannibalize their sales 
of pdp11 computers and sold the damn thing as a communication 
controller. Sad beyond belief.

They did it again with the Pro/350: A system that had integrated 
graphics, 512k of memory, dual floppies and a hard disk, easy to install 
card options (Ethernet, TMS, etc) and of course a real time 
multi-program operating system and (with Synergy) a fairly neat GUI.

Unfortunately Dec saw that such a system would cannibalize their sales 
of pdp and vax computers and crippled the living daylights out of it. 
Ultimately selling it as a front-end processor. Sad beyond belief.

It wasn't just having the technology, it was having it and knowing how 
to market it. You need both to make a good product and DEC really was 
all about protecting their current market share (which is insane as they 
came to be by exploiting a niche in the computer industry).

Oh well.

CZ

On 11/26/2019 8:45 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote:
> Fred,
>  ??? I'm not stating that IBM invented the PC. I am stating that IBM 
> says it invented the PC. Yeah right. I actually believe that it was 
> Commodore that invented the Personal Computer for they were the first 
> company to come out with an affordable home computer system that was 
> very flexible. Of course this is my opinion.
> GOD Bless and Thanks,
> rich!
> 
> On 11/26/2019 7:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>>>> ???? And IBM invented the Personal Computer.
>>> No.
>>> We already established that Steve Jobs did that. Please pay attention.
>>
>> Where do you suppose he picked up such heretical revisionist ideas?
>>
> 

From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Nov 26 21:02:20 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 19:02:20 -0800
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <6a90f74b-56c3-b682-8f3b-d453a09a0ec4@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <51E168504CC648FABED8E808A5103085@teoPC>
 <6a90f74b-56c3-b682-8f3b-d453a09a0ec4@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <145bfc80-2e25-9b69-099d-20047998545b@sydex.com>

On 11/26/19 6:43 PM, ben via cctalk wrote:

> But the stange thing now, all the 8 bitters are making a come back
> like the z80 with CP/M (USA) and the 6502 with BBC Micro (UK).
> What ever happened to all the wierd early transitor computers that were
> like 48+ bits and 4K of core memory hit the surplus market in the mid
> 1970's?

Other than in very low-level MCUs, I don't see 8 bit micros making a
comeback.  And 32/64 bits seems to be the rule for MCUs today.

But surplus 2nd generation machines were common in the 1970s?

CDC had a scorched-earth policy when it came to leased mainframes.  I
suspect that IBM did also.  I witnessed CEs taking sledgehammers and
bolt cutters to several interesting mainframes.   The official directive
was that nothing was to leave the facility that could be re-sold.

--Chuck


From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Nov 26 21:03:29 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 19:03:29 -0800
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <5DDDE432.2010900@charter.net>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <CANij+ddZk-7WZk9YuvsEdb8JSQwJuFbpWRVLuF1v6T+5FpwauQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5DDDD144.2000407@charter.net>
 <CANij+dfyURKMXvzUAhL+Sz57HLa9iK6TgKx3mbX9fk4gx4Bv5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261738120.22418@shell.lmi.net>
 <5DDDD54B.5050309@charter.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261749440.22418@shell.lmi.net>
 <5DDDE432.2010900@charter.net>
Message-ID: <714d744e-b68d-c9b6-0c7f-604edbc0a243@sydex.com>

On 11/26/19 6:49 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote:
> Fred,
> ??? You are correct in your assessment. Which was first? The Altair and
> IMSAI had been available for years but you almost had to be an engineer
> to build them and use them. So were they first? 

So how do you class the 1973 MCM/70?  No assembly needed.

--Chuck


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Nov 26 21:05:29 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 19:05:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <5DDDE432.2010900@charter.net>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <CANij+ddZk-7WZk9YuvsEdb8JSQwJuFbpWRVLuF1v6T+5FpwauQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5DDDD144.2000407@charter.net>
 <CANij+dfyURKMXvzUAhL+Sz57HLa9iK6TgKx3mbX9fk4gx4Bv5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261738120.22418@shell.lmi.net>
 <5DDDD54B.5050309@charter.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261749440.22418@shell.lmi.net>
 <5DDDE432.2010900@charter.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261853500.22418@shell.lmi.net>

On Tue, 26 Nov 2019, Richard Pope wrote:
>    You are correct in your assessment. Which was first? The Altair and IMSAI 
> had been available for years but you almost had to be an engineer to build 
> them and use them. So were they first? I don't believe so because the average 
> idiot couldn't get them to work. They were too much trouble, work, and they 
> cost too much.

"FIRST", but rejected for various reasons.  in this case too hard for us 
beginners?


>    I consider the VIC-20 to be the first Home Computer or Personal Computer. 
> It was inexpensive, had good color graphics, good sound, was easy to program, 
> use, and was easy to expand. So I consider Commodore to be the inventor of 
> the PC. Just my opinion. Again which was truly first?

Again, an exact tie between three manufacturers.

> What about the Amiga. 
> The first multitasking multiprocessing computer with outstanding graphics, 
> sound, and expandability for a reasonable price. It was also truly plug and 
> play.

I LOVED the Amiga!  Traded 10 copies of XenoCopy for one of the early 
model 1000.
But, it wasn't until about 1986?, when even early Windoze was out.
Although far from as PRACTICAL for multitasking multiprocessing, I would 
place the Radio Shack Color Computer running the OPTIONAL OS-9 as earlier.
Yes, I would use the Amiga, NOT the Coco.
And, when the Amiga PC emulation came out, most of XenoCopy would run on 
it! ("the acid test of compatability" - PCWorld)
But, people griped that it "isn't FAST enough".  They got an elephant to 
FLY, and people complain about airspeed and payload??!?

Video Toaster, while a niche product, really showed the advantages of 
Amiga.  Up until a few years ago, when the Cable TV system crashed, it 
would display a "Guru Meditation Number"!

"But there HAS to be a Macintosh version!"
"OK, OK."  It's a bigger box, and if you look inside there's an Amiga 
motherboard. (or so I'm told)


Atari 520/1040 were pretty good, but they didn't appeal to me like the 
Amiga.


From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Nov 26 21:05:39 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 19:05:39 -0800
Subject: Scanning docs for bitsavers
In-Reply-To: <e4810c1e-cb62-122d-3934-30bd06e1c5f1@snowmoose.com>
References: <e4810c1e-cb62-122d-3934-30bd06e1c5f1@snowmoose.com>
Message-ID: <02c4d252-fc6b-109f-4276-83e5f11620c3@sydex.com>

On 11/26/19 6:52 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote:
> 
> I am going through stuff in my office and found that I have some SCSI
> device docs that aren't on bitsavers. As far as multi-page documents, it
> seems as if my scanner (or its software) only does uncompressed TIFF. At
> bitsaver's recommended 400 dpi, that means about 4M per page.
> 
> What should I do? Scan the docs in and find a tool to convert to
> lossless compression. Scan the docs in and just submit the huge files?
> Something else?
> 
> The docs that I have are copies, not originals. Does anyone here want
> them after I scan them?

Are these standards; e.g. official ANSI X3T10 docs?

--Chuck


From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue Nov 26 21:08:03 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 19:08:03 -0800
Subject: Scanning docs for bitsavers
In-Reply-To: <e4810c1e-cb62-122d-3934-30bd06e1c5f1@snowmoose.com>
References: <e4810c1e-cb62-122d-3934-30bd06e1c5f1@snowmoose.com>
Message-ID: <f9e1bab7-6111-2e2d-e5cd-56ee23f5b93f@bitsavers.org>

you can ftp the uncompressed files to me and I'll take care of the conversions

On 11/26/19 6:52 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote:
> 
> I am going through stuff in my office and found that I have some SCSI device docs that aren't on bitsavers. As far as
> multi-page documents, it seems as if my scanner (or its software) only does uncompressed TIFF. At bitsaver's recommended
> 400 dpi, that means about 4M per page.
> 
> What should I do? Scan the docs in and find a tool to convert to lossless compression. Scan the docs in and just submit
> the huge files? Something else?
> 
> The docs that I have are copies, not originals. Does anyone here want them after I scan them?
> 
> alan


From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com  Tue Nov 26 21:10:52 2019
From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 01:10:52 -0200
Subject: Scanning docs for bitsavers
In-Reply-To: <f9e1bab7-6111-2e2d-e5cd-56ee23f5b93f@bitsavers.org>
References: <e4810c1e-cb62-122d-3934-30bd06e1c5f1@snowmoose.com>
 <f9e1bab7-6111-2e2d-e5cd-56ee23f5b93f@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CANdZFKR-mpL6LKp-8asgiq_r5GENUqgx9J6183aYw5gu-BidcQ@mail.gmail.com>

Al, is there a "standard" you would recommend us mere mortals to scan and
archive docs?

---8<---Corte aqui---8<---
http://www.tabajara-labs.blogspot.com
http://www.tabalabs.com.br
---8<---Corte aqui---8<---


Em qua., 27 de nov. de 2019 ?s 01:07, Al Kossow via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> escreveu:

> you can ftp the uncompressed files to me and I'll take care of the
> conversions
>
> On 11/26/19 6:52 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote:
> >
> > I am going through stuff in my office and found that I have some SCSI
> device docs that aren't on bitsavers. As far as
> > multi-page documents, it seems as if my scanner (or its software) only
> does uncompressed TIFF. At bitsaver's recommended
> > 400 dpi, that means about 4M per page.
> >
> > What should I do? Scan the docs in and find a tool to convert to
> lossless compression. Scan the docs in and just submit
> > the huge files? Something else?
> >
> > The docs that I have are copies, not originals. Does anyone here want
> them after I scan them?
> >
> > alan
>
>

From mechanic_2 at charter.net  Tue Nov 26 21:14:18 2019
From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 21:14:18 -0600
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261853500.22418@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <CANij+ddZk-7WZk9YuvsEdb8JSQwJuFbpWRVLuF1v6T+5FpwauQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5DDDD144.2000407@charter.net>
 <CANij+dfyURKMXvzUAhL+Sz57HLa9iK6TgKx3mbX9fk4gx4Bv5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261738120.22418@shell.lmi.net>
 <5DDDD54B.5050309@charter.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261749440.22418@shell.lmi.net>
 <5DDDE432.2010900@charter.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261853500.22418@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <5DDDEA0A.4080104@charter.net>

Fred,
     I started with the VIC. I then got a C-64. From there I bought a 
C-128 and then the A-1000. I migrated to a A-2000 that I then upgraded 
many times. I finally got an A-4000T 040/25MHz system which I upgraded 
to 50MHz and 128MB of ram. It also had 4MB of chip ram and 8MB of Fast 
ram. It took over 20 years to finally get an Intel machine that is as 
fast as my 4000 was and it is running dual 6 core Xeons running at 
1.6GHz and with 32GB of ram. It still won't handle more than one floppy 
at a time where the Amiga could handle four floppies at one time.
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!

On 11/26/2019 9:05 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Nov 2019, Richard Pope wrote:
>>    You are correct in your assessment. Which was first? The Altair 
>> and IMSAI had been available for years but you almost had to be an 
>> engineer to build them and use them. So were they first? I don't 
>> believe so because the average idiot couldn't get them to work. They 
>> were too much trouble, work, and they cost too much.
>
> "FIRST", but rejected for various reasons.  in this case too hard for 
> us beginners?
>
>
>>    I consider the VIC-20 to be the first Home Computer or Personal 
>> Computer. It was inexpensive, had good color graphics, good sound, 
>> was easy to program, use, and was easy to expand. So I consider 
>> Commodore to be the inventor of the PC. Just my opinion. Again which 
>> was truly first?
>
> Again, an exact tie between three manufacturers.
>
>> What about the Amiga. The first multitasking multiprocessing computer 
>> with outstanding graphics, sound, and expandability for a reasonable 
>> price. It was also truly plug and play.
>
> I LOVED the Amiga!  Traded 10 copies of XenoCopy for one of the early 
> model 1000.
> But, it wasn't until about 1986?, when even early Windoze was out.
> Although far from as PRACTICAL for multitasking multiprocessing, I 
> would place the Radio Shack Color Computer running the OPTIONAL OS-9 
> as earlier.
> Yes, I would use the Amiga, NOT the Coco.
> And, when the Amiga PC emulation came out, most of XenoCopy would run 
> on it! ("the acid test of compatability" - PCWorld)
> But, people griped that it "isn't FAST enough".  They got an elephant 
> to FLY, and people complain about airspeed and payload??!?
>
> Video Toaster, while a niche product, really showed the advantages of 
> Amiga.  Up until a few years ago, when the Cable TV system crashed, it 
> would display a "Guru Meditation Number"!
>
> "But there HAS to be a Macintosh version!"
> "OK, OK."  It's a bigger box, and if you look inside there's an Amiga 
> motherboard. (or so I'm told)
>
>
> Atari 520/1040 were pretty good, but they didn't appeal to me like the 
> Amiga.
>
>


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Nov 26 21:16:20 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 19:16:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <1a0a87e7-42b6-ee4f-c79f-8f33bbd1e9c5@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <CANij+ddZk-7WZk9YuvsEdb8JSQwJuFbpWRVLuF1v6T+5FpwauQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5DDDD144.2000407@charter.net>
 <CANij+dfyURKMXvzUAhL+Sz57HLa9iK6TgKx3mbX9fk4gx4Bv5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261738120.22418@shell.lmi.net>
 <5DDDD54B.5050309@charter.net>
 <1a0a87e7-42b6-ee4f-c79f-8f33bbd1e9c5@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261912290.22418@shell.lmi.net>

Good point.

Some companies that COULD HAVE been the leaders made great inventions 
and/or engineering, and then fumbled the marketing.

I'm thinking that Xerox Parc could be said to have "invented" the next 
generation of personal computers, but did they ever cash in on that?
I can visualize a Apple/Microsoft argument, "But we stole it FIRST!"
(like English/French/Spanish in America)


On Tue, 26 Nov 2019, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:

> I would make a strong argument that DEC invented the PC: Twice actually. The 
> PDT11/150 is a pretty amazing system: 64k of memory, serial port, printer 
> port, RT11 operating system and if I recall correctly someone wrote a version 
> of Visicalc and a nice word processor on it as a demonstration.
>
> Unfortunately Dec saw that such a system would cannibalize their sales of 
> pdp11 computers and sold the damn thing as a communication controller. Sad 
> beyond belief.
>
> They did it again with the Pro/350: A system that had integrated graphics, 
> 512k of memory, dual floppies and a hard disk, easy to install card options 
> (Ethernet, TMS, etc) and of course a real time multi-program operating system 
> and (with Synergy) a fairly neat GUI.
>
> Unfortunately Dec saw that such a system would cannibalize their sales of pdp 
> and vax computers and crippled the living daylights out of it. Ultimately 
> selling it as a front-end processor. Sad beyond belief.
>
> It wasn't just having the technology, it was having it and knowing how to 
> market it. You need both to make a good product and DEC really was all about 
> protecting their current market share (which is insane as they came to be by 
> exploiting a niche in the computer industry).
>
> Oh well.
>
> CZ

From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Tue Nov 26 21:15:08 2019
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 22:15:08 -0500
Subject: First Internet message and ...
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <51E168504CC648FABED8E808A5103085@teoPC>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261838170.22418@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <F880F80B2BD54F89947B24D8D2E196A8@310e2>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Fred Cisin via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2019 9:51 PM
Subject: Re: First Internet message and ...


> On Tue, 26 Nov 2019, TeoZ via cctalk wrote:
>> The only reason Apple sold so many Apple II's was because some software 
>> designer came out with Visicalc.
> 
> Dan Bricklin and Bob Frankston  ("Software Arts")
> They sold it through "Personal Software", who became "VisiCorp"
> http://www.bricklin.com/history/sai.htm
> 
> Frankly, I think that word processing was more responsible than 
> spreadsheet for microcomputer sales.
> But, Apple had a headstart by having both.
> 
> A far from complete and only partially chronological list:
> Electric Pencil  (Michael Shrayer)
> Electric Pencil for CP/M  (with a program to transfer files from Electric 
> Pencil disks to and from CP/M disks)
> Wordstar for CP/M (MicroPro (later WordStar, Inc))
> Easy Writer (Apple II, by John Draper)
> Scripsit (TRS80)
> Electric Pencil for TRS80
> Easy Writer for IBm PC
> Wordstar for PC
> Electric Pencil for PC (Harv Pennington)
> Microsoft Word  (PC and Apple)
> WordPervert
> PC-Write (Bob Wallace)
> 
------------------------
WordPro, Paper Clip (written by local boys) and PaperMate for the Commodore PET (and later for the C64)


From jim.manley at gmail.com  Tue Nov 26 21:16:42 2019
From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 20:16:42 -0700
Subject: The information age
In-Reply-To: <BYAPR01MB560839EF75EA2990D077110FA3450@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <BYAPR01MB560839EF75EA2990D077110FA3450@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2R3is0y7V3gRGZ7nbtjWPPzrw9L0LyWHi4R1nsDTs1c8jzEQ@mail.gmail.com>

" ... like to write their own version"

It's a good thing no one else ever wrote their own version of history ...
oh, wait, _everyone_ does that!  They once called it "To the victor goes
the spoils (of victory)."  Jealously will get you nowhere, by the way.
Inferior products and services can only be marketed for so long before end
users find and demand something better, so, anything that lasts more than a
marketing flash in the pan is more likely to be satisfying a real need.

For a long time, IT nerds who were getting payola from certain convicted
monopolists forced end users to suffer with inferior hardware and software,
but, when it came to spending their own money, users found the better
products that weren't hamstrung by a registry, that weren't marketed solely
by comparing meaningless MHz and MBs, that were based on hardware capable
of supporting upwards of half-a-dozen first-digit major version OS upgrades
provided at no additional cost, that were based on close observation of
actual humans using prototypes of next-version products and responding with
improvements based on voluminous user feedback, that were copied endlessly,
but with inferior results, etc., etc., etc.

Estate and garage sales of retired engineers' collections who are
downsizing are lucrative sources of ... sources!

If anyone wants 4004 code, just open up one of those shiny silver or dark
green boxes on a corner of any intersection with a traffic light ...

It's "lawsuit", not "law suite", BTW.  Slingers of code and CAD layouts
have to get every single character and trace absolutely correct.


On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 12:15 PM dwight via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> It is such a shame that in the "information age", we have lost so much of
> the information. It doesn't help when we have people like Jobs that like to
> write their own version.
> It is even worse when companies think it is a law suite risk to keep
> information more than a year. It is all lost.
> "The information lost age"
> Dwight
>
>

From mechanic_2 at charter.net  Tue Nov 26 21:17:52 2019
From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 21:17:52 -0600
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <714d744e-b68d-c9b6-0c7f-604edbc0a243@sydex.com>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <CANij+ddZk-7WZk9YuvsEdb8JSQwJuFbpWRVLuF1v6T+5FpwauQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5DDDD144.2000407@charter.net>
 <CANij+dfyURKMXvzUAhL+Sz57HLa9iK6TgKx3mbX9fk4gx4Bv5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261738120.22418@shell.lmi.net>
 <5DDDD54B.5050309@charter.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261749440.22418@shell.lmi.net>
 <5DDDE432.2010900@charter.net>
 <714d744e-b68d-c9b6-0c7f-604edbc0a243@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <5DDDEAE0.9040903@charter.net>

Chuck,
     I don't know anything about this system. I don't consider Minis and 
MainFrames to be Personal Computers. It must fit in a small room, run on 
a 120VAC 5Amp service, and not require 3 tons of AC to keep it cool to 
fit in to the Personal Computer definition.
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!

On 11/26/2019 9:03 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> On 11/26/19 6:49 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote:
>> Fred,
>>      You are correct in your assessment. Which was first? The Altair and
>> IMSAI had been available for years but you almost had to be an engineer
>> to build them and use them. So were they first?
> So how do you class the 1973 MCM/70?  No assembly needed.
>
> --Chuck
>
>


From mechanic_2 at charter.net  Tue Nov 26 21:18:36 2019
From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 21:18:36 -0600
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261912290.22418@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <CANij+ddZk-7WZk9YuvsEdb8JSQwJuFbpWRVLuF1v6T+5FpwauQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5DDDD144.2000407@charter.net>
 <CANij+dfyURKMXvzUAhL+Sz57HLa9iK6TgKx3mbX9fk4gx4Bv5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261738120.22418@shell.lmi.net>
 <5DDDD54B.5050309@charter.net>
 <1a0a87e7-42b6-ee4f-c79f-8f33bbd1e9c5@alembic.crystel.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261912290.22418@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <5DDDEB0C.4070808@charter.net>

Fred,
     Agreed!
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!

On 11/26/2019 9:16 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> Good point.
>
> Some companies that COULD HAVE been the leaders made great inventions 
> and/or engineering, and then fumbled the marketing.
>
> I'm thinking that Xerox Parc could be said to have "invented" the next 
> generation of personal computers, but did they ever cash in on that?
> I can visualize a Apple/Microsoft argument, "But we stole it FIRST!"
> (like English/French/Spanish in America)
>
>
> On Tue, 26 Nov 2019, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
>
>> I would make a strong argument that DEC invented the PC: Twice 
>> actually. The PDT11/150 is a pretty amazing system: 64k of memory, 
>> serial port, printer port, RT11 operating system and if I recall 
>> correctly someone wrote a version of Visicalc and a nice word 
>> processor on it as a demonstration.
>>
>> Unfortunately Dec saw that such a system would cannibalize their 
>> sales of pdp11 computers and sold the damn thing as a communication 
>> controller. Sad beyond belief.
>>
>> They did it again with the Pro/350: A system that had integrated 
>> graphics, 512k of memory, dual floppies and a hard disk, easy to 
>> install card options (Ethernet, TMS, etc) and of course a real time 
>> multi-program operating system and (with Synergy) a fairly neat GUI.
>>
>> Unfortunately Dec saw that such a system would cannibalize their 
>> sales of pdp and vax computers and crippled the living daylights out 
>> of it. Ultimately selling it as a front-end processor. Sad beyond 
>> belief.
>>
>> It wasn't just having the technology, it was having it and knowing 
>> how to market it. You need both to make a good product and DEC really 
>> was all about protecting their current market share (which is insane 
>> as they came to be by exploiting a niche in the computer industry).
>>
>> Oh well.
>>
>> CZ
>


From mechanic_2 at charter.net  Tue Nov 26 21:19:55 2019
From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 21:19:55 -0600
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <F880F80B2BD54F89947B24D8D2E196A8@310e2>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <51E168504CC648FABED8E808A5103085@teoPC>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261838170.22418@shell.lmi.net>
 <F880F80B2BD54F89947B24D8D2E196A8@310e2>
Message-ID: <5DDDEB5B.2070706@charter.net>

Mike,
     Word Perfect and the Vista series was also available for the Amiga!
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!

On 11/26/2019 9:15 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Fred Cisin via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2019 9:51 PM
> Subject: Re: First Internet message and ...
>
>
>> On Tue, 26 Nov 2019, TeoZ via cctalk wrote:
>>> The only reason Apple sold so many Apple II's was because some software
>>> designer came out with Visicalc.
>> Dan Bricklin and Bob Frankston  ("Software Arts")
>> They sold it through "Personal Software", who became "VisiCorp"
>> http://www.bricklin.com/history/sai.htm
>>
>> Frankly, I think that word processing was more responsible than
>> spreadsheet for microcomputer sales.
>> But, Apple had a headstart by having both.
>>
>> A far from complete and only partially chronological list:
>> Electric Pencil  (Michael Shrayer)
>> Electric Pencil for CP/M  (with a program to transfer files from Electric
>> Pencil disks to and from CP/M disks)
>> Wordstar for CP/M (MicroPro (later WordStar, Inc))
>> Easy Writer (Apple II, by John Draper)
>> Scripsit (TRS80)
>> Electric Pencil for TRS80
>> Easy Writer for IBm PC
>> Wordstar for PC
>> Electric Pencil for PC (Harv Pennington)
>> Microsoft Word  (PC and Apple)
>> WordPervert
>> PC-Write (Bob Wallace)
>>
> ------------------------
> WordPro, Paper Clip (written by local boys) and PaperMate for the Commodore PET (and later for the C64)
>
>


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Nov 26 21:23:31 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 19:23:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The information age
In-Reply-To: <CAD2R3is0y7V3gRGZ7nbtjWPPzrw9L0LyWHi4R1nsDTs1c8jzEQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BYAPR01MB560839EF75EA2990D077110FA3450@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAD2R3is0y7V3gRGZ7nbtjWPPzrw9L0LyWHi4R1nsDTs1c8jzEQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261921320.22418@shell.lmi.net>

On Tue, 26 Nov 2019, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote:
> " ... like to write their own version"
> It's a good thing no one else ever wrote their own version of history ...
> oh, wait, _everyone_ does that!  They once called it "To the victor goes
> the spoils (of victory)."

"History is written by the victors" is often attributed to Winston 
Churchill, but its origin is really unkown.


> It's "lawsuit", not "law suite", BTW.  Slingers of code and CAD layouts
> have to get every single character and trace absolutely correct.

Sometimes it becomes a suite of suits filed by the suits.

From aperry at snowmoose.com  Tue Nov 26 21:23:42 2019
From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 19:23:42 -0800
Subject: Scanning docs for bitsavers
In-Reply-To: <02c4d252-fc6b-109f-4276-83e5f11620c3@sydex.com>
References: <e4810c1e-cb62-122d-3934-30bd06e1c5f1@snowmoose.com>
 <02c4d252-fc6b-109f-4276-83e5f11620c3@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <05f43ca7-570b-a7e0-3236-6d67821360b4@snowmoose.com>



On 11/26/19 7:05 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> On 11/26/19 6:52 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote:
>>
>> I am going through stuff in my office and found that I have some SCSI
>> device docs that aren't on bitsavers. As far as multi-page documents, it
>> seems as if my scanner (or its software) only does uncompressed TIFF. At
>> bitsaver's recommended 400 dpi, that means about 4M per page.
>>
>> What should I do? Scan the docs in and find a tool to convert to
>> lossless compression. Scan the docs in and just submit the huge files?
>> Something else?
>>
>> The docs that I have are copies, not originals. Does anyone here want
>> them after I scan them?
> 
> Are these standards; e.g. official ANSI X3T10 docs?

No, they are vendor docs on specific devices. CDC Wren IV. Exabyte 8200. 
Adaptec AIC-6250 and AHA-1540A/1542A. Something else that I can't 
recall. Most had related docs on bitsavers, but not these specific 
documents.

alan


> 
> --Chuck
> 

From rdawson16 at hotmail.com  Tue Nov 26 21:26:20 2019
From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 03:26:20 +0000
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <F880F80B2BD54F89947B24D8D2E196A8@310e2>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <51E168504CC648FABED8E808A5103085@teoPC>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261838170.22418@shell.lmi.net>,
 <F880F80B2BD54F89947B24D8D2E196A8@310e2>
Message-ID: <DM6PR06MB50529A8F9EE5777B5679DB62BA440@DM6PR06MB5052.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

No, this was the first personal computer...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tektronix_4050#/media/File:Tektronix_4051_ad_April_1976.jpg

________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Mike Stein via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2019 7:15 PM
To: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com>; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: First Internet message and ...


----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Cisin via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2019 9:51 PM
Subject: Re: First Internet message and ...


> On Tue, 26 Nov 2019, TeoZ via cctalk wrote:
>> The only reason Apple sold so many Apple II's was because some software
>> designer came out with Visicalc.
>
> Dan Bricklin and Bob Frankston  ("Software Arts")
> They sold it through "Personal Software", who became "VisiCorp"
> http://www.bricklin.com/history/sai.htm
>
> Frankly, I think that word processing was more responsible than
> spreadsheet for microcomputer sales.
> But, Apple had a headstart by having both.
>
> A far from complete and only partially chronological list:
> Electric Pencil  (Michael Shrayer)
> Electric Pencil for CP/M  (with a program to transfer files from Electric
> Pencil disks to and from CP/M disks)
> Wordstar for CP/M (MicroPro (later WordStar, Inc))
> Easy Writer (Apple II, by John Draper)
> Scripsit (TRS80)
> Electric Pencil for TRS80
> Easy Writer for IBm PC
> Wordstar for PC
> Electric Pencil for PC (Harv Pennington)
> Microsoft Word  (PC and Apple)
> WordPervert
> PC-Write (Bob Wallace)
>
------------------------
WordPro, Paper Clip (written by local boys) and PaperMate for the Commodore PET (and later for the C64)


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Nov 26 21:32:15 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 19:32:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <5DDDEB5B.2070706@charter.net>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <51E168504CC648FABED8E808A5103085@teoPC>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261838170.22418@shell.lmi.net>
 <F880F80B2BD54F89947B24D8D2E196A8@310e2>
 <5DDDEB5B.2070706@charter.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261925450.22418@shell.lmi.net>

On Tue, 26 Nov 2019, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote:
>    Word Perfect and the Vista series was also available for the Amiga!
> GOD Bless and Thanks,

Manx ("Aztec C Compiler") and WordPervert made efforts to expand 
into ALL platorms.

A couple of times, MY booth at Comdex was next to WordPervert.
They were not good neighbors, and didn't comply with noise/sound-volume 
limits.  But, their booth was more than a dozen times the size of ours, so 
enforcement was minimal.


From mechanic_2 at charter.net  Tue Nov 26 21:33:45 2019
From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 21:33:45 -0600
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <DM6PR06MB50529A8F9EE5777B5679DB62BA440@DM6PR06MB5052.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <51E168504CC648FABED8E808A5103085@teoPC>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261838170.22418@shell.lmi.net>,
 <F880F80B2BD54F89947B24D8D2E196A8@310e2>
 <DM6PR06MB50529A8F9EE5777B5679DB62BA440@DM6PR06MB5052.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <5DDDEE99.2070007@charter.net>

Randy,
     I will argue that that is an engineering computer and not a 
personal computer. No color and probably no sound except for beeps.
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!

On 11/26/2019 9:26 PM, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote:
> No, this was the first personal computer...
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tektronix_4050#/media/File:Tektronix_4051_ad_April_1976.jpg
>
> ________________________________
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Mike Stein via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2019 7:15 PM
> To: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com>; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: First Internet message and ...
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Fred Cisin via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2019 9:51 PM
> Subject: Re: First Internet message and ...
>
>
>> On Tue, 26 Nov 2019, TeoZ via cctalk wrote:
>>> The only reason Apple sold so many Apple II's was because some software
>>> designer came out with Visicalc.
>> Dan Bricklin and Bob Frankston  ("Software Arts")
>> They sold it through "Personal Software", who became "VisiCorp"
>> http://www.bricklin.com/history/sai.htm
>>
>> Frankly, I think that word processing was more responsible than
>> spreadsheet for microcomputer sales.
>> But, Apple had a headstart by having both.
>>
>> A far from complete and only partially chronological list:
>> Electric Pencil  (Michael Shrayer)
>> Electric Pencil for CP/M  (with a program to transfer files from Electric
>> Pencil disks to and from CP/M disks)
>> Wordstar for CP/M (MicroPro (later WordStar, Inc))
>> Easy Writer (Apple II, by John Draper)
>> Scripsit (TRS80)
>> Electric Pencil for TRS80
>> Easy Writer for IBm PC
>> Wordstar for PC
>> Electric Pencil for PC (Harv Pennington)
>> Microsoft Word  (PC and Apple)
>> WordPervert
>> PC-Write (Bob Wallace)
>>
> ------------------------
> WordPro, Paper Clip (written by local boys) and PaperMate for the Commodore PET (and later for the C64)
>
>


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Nov 26 21:40:47 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 19:40:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <DM6PR06MB50529A8F9EE5777B5679DB62BA440@DM6PR06MB5052.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <51E168504CC648FABED8E808A5103085@teoPC>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261838170.22418@shell.lmi.net>,
 <F880F80B2BD54F89947B24D8D2E196A8@310e2>
 <DM6PR06MB50529A8F9EE5777B5679DB62BA440@DM6PR06MB5052.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261934160.22418@shell.lmi.net>

On Wed, 27 Nov 2019, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote:
> No, this was the first personal computer...
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tektronix_4050#/media/File:Tektronix_4051_ad_April_1976.jpg

No, the first personal computer was any machine, including IBM 360, if you 
could get access to it after midnight!
No one else around?  Then it's now my personal machine!


That night school course run by United States Department Of Agriculture! 
in 1970 on "IBM 360 operator training" got me a little extra access in a 
few facilities.  (along with bringing a snack for the operator and showing 
off a few trivial tricks, like changing the box of paper without stopping 
the printer)  I was not a competent operator, but it meant that the 
operator wouldn't shoo me out when he took a break.

From drb at msu.edu  Tue Nov 26 21:47:16 2019
From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 22:47:16 -0500
Subject: Key for IBM 9370 - 20
In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 26 Nov 2019 18:43:35 -0800.)
 <e8e3aaa6-eef6-f1f9-7ed1-4084f2ebcd12@jwsss.com>
References: <e8e3aaa6-eef6-f1f9-7ed1-4084f2ebcd12@jwsss.com>
 <3a3be843-e9ee-7d5c-73d4-592de3c9e3f8@jwsss.com>
 <20191126224044.5E0ED25F4B2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <20191127034717.3DF3425F6E2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>

 > I found another reference.  different numbers slightly.

These are just rounded from four places to three.  Since the step is
.0155, the tolerances are probably a couple of thousandths anyway.

 > What I have measured so far.  This starts with the index up, first
 > slot to the right, going CCW.

Thanks for these.  Sure you meant CCW from one o'clock?

De

From drb at msu.edu  Tue Nov 26 21:50:26 2019
From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 22:50:26 -0500
Subject: Key for IBM 9370 - 20
In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 26 Nov 2019 22:47:16 -0500.)
References: <e8e3aaa6-eef6-f1f9-7ed1-4084f2ebcd12@jwsss.com>
 <3a3be843-e9ee-7d5c-73d4-592de3c9e3f8@jwsss.com>
 <20191126224044.5E0ED25F4B2@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <20191127035026.5907225F6F4@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>

 > Sure you meant CCW from one o'clock?

Sorry, you're looking into the end of the key, and this makes sense.  My
bad.

De

From cube1 at charter.net  Tue Nov 26 21:51:34 2019
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 21:51:34 -0600
Subject: Scanning docs for bitsavers
In-Reply-To: <e4810c1e-cb62-122d-3934-30bd06e1c5f1@snowmoose.com>
References: <e4810c1e-cb62-122d-3934-30bd06e1c5f1@snowmoose.com>
Message-ID: <7f1e6ff1-7fa6-c0ae-d35b-67e5fc5b7fd3@charter.net>

On 11/26/2019 8:52 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote:
> 
> I am going through stuff in my office and found that I have some SCSI
> device docs that aren't on bitsavers. As far as multi-page documents, it
> seems as if my scanner (or its software) only does uncompressed TIFF. At
> bitsaver's recommended 400 dpi, that means about 4M per page.
> 
> What should I do? Scan the docs in and find a tool to convert to
> lossless compression. Scan the docs in and just submit the huge files?
> Something else?
> 
> The docs that I have are copies, not originals. Does anyone here want
> them after I scan them?
> 
> alan
> 

This would be a function of the software, not the scanner.

When I corresponded with Al Kossow about format several years ago, he
indicated that CCITT Group 4 lossless compression was their standard.

I have been using a scanner (Ricoh IS300e) that needs a driver that
doesn't install under Windows 10, so now I use it from inside a Windows
7 VM.  The software I have been using in Irfanview.

I expect it would not be tremendously difficult to find something that
would do the compression on a raw file.

JRJ

From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue Nov 26 22:02:15 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 20:02:15 -0800
Subject: Scanning docs for bitsavers
In-Reply-To: <CANdZFKR-mpL6LKp-8asgiq_r5GENUqgx9J6183aYw5gu-BidcQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e4810c1e-cb62-122d-3934-30bd06e1c5f1@snowmoose.com>
 <f9e1bab7-6111-2e2d-e5cd-56ee23f5b93f@bitsavers.org>
 <CANdZFKR-mpL6LKp-8asgiq_r5GENUqgx9J6183aYw5gu-BidcQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ab4e1be1-8b9d-0589-bed1-114c0712fc9a@bitsavers.org>



On 11/26/19 7:10 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote:
> Al, is there a "standard" you would recommend us mere mortals to scan and archive docs?

I've moved to 600dpi bi-tonal tiffs for all new text work since that is the maximum
resolution my Panasonic KV-S3065 scanner supports. I use a flatbed at 300dpi jpeg for pages with images

I'm not going to discuss the pros and cons of my work. This is what my workflow is and is unlikely
to change any time soon.



From drb at msu.edu  Tue Nov 26 22:05:01 2019
From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 23:05:01 -0500
Subject: Scanning docs for bitsavers
In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 26 Nov 2019 21:51:34 -0600.)
 <7f1e6ff1-7fa6-c0ae-d35b-67e5fc5b7fd3@charter.net>
References: <7f1e6ff1-7fa6-c0ae-d35b-67e5fc5b7fd3@charter.net>
 <e4810c1e-cb62-122d-3934-30bd06e1c5f1@snowmoose.com>
Message-ID: <20191127040501.BA0B325F70D@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>

> As far as multi-page documents, it seems as if my scanner (or its
> software) only does uncompressed TIFF. At bitsaver's recommended 400
> dpi, that means about 4M per page.

If you're on unix of some sort, the libtiff tools can convert these
uncompressed images to G4.  The command you'd use would be tiffcp.

De

From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Nov 26 22:07:25 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 20:07:25 -0800
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <5DDDEAE0.9040903@charter.net>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <CANij+ddZk-7WZk9YuvsEdb8JSQwJuFbpWRVLuF1v6T+5FpwauQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5DDDD144.2000407@charter.net>
 <CANij+dfyURKMXvzUAhL+Sz57HLa9iK6TgKx3mbX9fk4gx4Bv5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261738120.22418@shell.lmi.net>
 <5DDDD54B.5050309@charter.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261749440.22418@shell.lmi.net>
 <5DDDE432.2010900@charter.net>
 <714d744e-b68d-c9b6-0c7f-604edbc0a243@sydex.com>
 <5DDDEAE0.9040903@charter.net>
Message-ID: <d89f050f-2404-d7c1-b9fd-7863d2feb161@sydex.com>

On 11/26/19 7:17 PM, Richard Pope wrote:
> Chuck,
> ??? I don't know anything about this system. I don't consider Minis and
> MainFrames to be Personal Computers. It must fit in a small room, run on
> a 120VAC 5Amp service, and not require 3 tons of AC to keep it cool to
> fit in to the Personal Computer definition.

It's better than that; it fits nicely on a desktop, has its own tape
storage, display and printer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MCM/70

Of course, it's usually ignored because it's Canadian.

--Chuck


From mechanic_2 at charter.net  Tue Nov 26 22:40:08 2019
From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 22:40:08 -0600
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <d89f050f-2404-d7c1-b9fd-7863d2feb161@sydex.com>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <CANij+ddZk-7WZk9YuvsEdb8JSQwJuFbpWRVLuF1v6T+5FpwauQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5DDDD144.2000407@charter.net>
 <CANij+dfyURKMXvzUAhL+Sz57HLa9iK6TgKx3mbX9fk4gx4Bv5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261738120.22418@shell.lmi.net>
 <5DDDD54B.5050309@charter.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261749440.22418@shell.lmi.net>
 <5DDDE432.2010900@charter.net>
 <714d744e-b68d-c9b6-0c7f-604edbc0a243@sydex.com>
 <5DDDEAE0.9040903@charter.net>
 <d89f050f-2404-d7c1-b9fd-7863d2feb161@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <5DDDFE28.1040706@charter.net>

Chuck,
     I wouldn't consider this a Personal Computer. It has some severe 
limitations. There are no graphics, only one line of display, no sound, 
no expandability. It is more of a front end to talk to another system. 
This computer is just too limited.
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!

On 11/26/2019 10:07 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> On 11/26/19 7:17 PM, Richard Pope wrote:
>> Chuck,
>>      I don't know anything about this system. I don't consider Minis and
>> MainFrames to be Personal Computers. It must fit in a small room, run on
>> a 120VAC 5Amp service, and not require 3 tons of AC to keep it cool to
>> fit in to the Personal Computer definition.
> It's better than that; it fits nicely on a desktop, has its own tape
> storage, display and printer.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MCM/70
>
> Of course, it's usually ignored because it's Canadian.
>
> --Chuck
>
>


From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue Nov 26 22:46:11 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 20:46:11 -0800
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <5DDDFE28.1040706@charter.net>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <CANij+ddZk-7WZk9YuvsEdb8JSQwJuFbpWRVLuF1v6T+5FpwauQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5DDDD144.2000407@charter.net>
 <CANij+dfyURKMXvzUAhL+Sz57HLa9iK6TgKx3mbX9fk4gx4Bv5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261738120.22418@shell.lmi.net>
 <5DDDD54B.5050309@charter.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261749440.22418@shell.lmi.net>
 <5DDDE432.2010900@charter.net>
 <714d744e-b68d-c9b6-0c7f-604edbc0a243@sydex.com>
 <5DDDEAE0.9040903@charter.net>
 <d89f050f-2404-d7c1-b9fd-7863d2feb161@sydex.com>
 <5DDDFE28.1040706@charter.net>
Message-ID: <066aacfd-02b6-0050-027d-3e72e6b23d96@bitsavers.org>


> ??? I wouldn't consider this a Personal Computer.

THIS THREAD NEEDS TO DIE



From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Wed Nov 27 04:07:40 2019
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 10:07:40 -0000
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <51E168504CC648FABED8E808A5103085@teoPC>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <51E168504CC648FABED8E808A5103085@teoPC>
Message-ID: <022101d5a50a$80c3cfb0$824b6f10$@gmail.com>

I believe that Edison invented the filament bulb with a Tungsten Filament, but Joseph Swan's carbon filament bulb pre-dated this.
However Edison was doing so well in his court case, than rather than wait for the result, he simply bought out Swan thus ending the debate....

Dave
G4UGM
ps. what didn't they use to light the fire on the first public railway (Stockton and Darlington Railway, 1825)
pps. For a bonus point where did the above railway start and end...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of TeoZ via cctalk
> Sent: 27 November 2019 02:10
> To: Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com>; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-
> Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: First Internet message and ...
> 
> Patents are generally used to document who invented what first. Commercial
> success building on old research and patents tends to be what is remembered.
> 
> So what if some guy in 1761 heated up a wire until it glowed releasing light, it
> took many people over a long time to come up with a usable cheap light bulb
> design and the inventions that brought electricity into cities and peoples houses
> to power those bulbs that people will remember.
> 
> The only reason Apple sold so many Apple II's was because some software
> designer came out with Visicalc. So many machines were sold that they ended
> up cheap enough and useful enough to end up in schools and homes where
> before they were only sold to corporations. IBM's release of the PC with open
> architecture and all the people who cloned it and made software and hardware
> for it that IBM never envisioned is the reason X86/X64 is so dominant not that is
> was the first or the best.
> 
> The people who invented something epic tend to not have commercial success
> because pretty much most ground breaking patents tend to expire before they
> truly become useful and because of the need for other inventions to make them
> commercially usable.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk
> Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2019 8:18 PM
> To: Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
> Subject: Re: First Internet message and ...
> 
> On 11/26/19 12:48 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> > On 11/26/19 1:32 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> >> I figure the record will finally be set straight after all of the
> >> people involved at time cited are dead.
> >>
> >> Such is history.
> >>
> >
> > You mean like how history says Columbus discovered America...
> 
> And Edison invented the incandescent lamp.
> 
> --Chuck



From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Nov 27 05:52:55 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 12:52:55 +0100
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <145bfc80-2e25-9b69-099d-20047998545b@sydex.com>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <51E168504CC648FABED8E808A5103085@teoPC>
 <6a90f74b-56c3-b682-8f3b-d453a09a0ec4@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <145bfc80-2e25-9b69-099d-20047998545b@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCE6TwPe3VtdmKy9QYjyVDnaaBGcQH6cKyf-9KbKPiX2eg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 27 Nov 2019 at 04:02, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Other than in very low-level MCUs, I don't see 8 bit micros making a
> comeback.  And 32/64 bits seems to be the rule for MCUs today.

You might be surprised.

E.g.

https://rc2014.co.uk/ (selling strongly, I believe)

https://www.specnext.com/ (selling umpteen thousands, 2nd kickstarter
round sold out long ago)

https://www.worldofsam.org/products/zx-uno (less well marketed, but
also doing very well)

I'm not really into the American machines (Commodore, MSX, etc.) but
they too have modern clones that are selling well. I do have one of
these:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C64_Direct-to-TV

This isn't _really_ an 8-bit but it acts like one. I have a PCB and
hope to build one up.

https://basicengine.org/

Comparable machines:

http://geoffg.net/maximite.html

http://cb2.qrp.gr/

So, actually, considering how obsolete the tech is, the 8-bit world is
in pretty good shape!

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed Nov 27 06:14:47 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 07:14:47 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Scanning docs for bitsavers
Message-ID: <20191127121447.4638E18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Jay Jaeger

    > CCITT Group 4 lossless compression

That's very good indeed. I scan text pages in B+W at slightly less resolution
(engineering prints I do higher, they need it), but compressed they turn out
to be ~50KB per page, or less - for long documents (e.g. the DOS-11 System
Programmer's Manual), that produces a reasonably-sized file.

    > The software I have been using i[s] Irfanview.

That's what I use too; it has tons of useful features, including being able
to drive my single-sided page-feed scanner and being able to number the
even-sided pages correctly. The one I use for this is the 'batch mode'; I can
do the entire document into CCITT 4 in one operation.

	Noel

From jfoust at threedee.com  Wed Nov 27 06:28:16 2019
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 06:28:16 -0600
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261853500.22418@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <CANij+ddZk-7WZk9YuvsEdb8JSQwJuFbpWRVLuF1v6T+5FpwauQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5DDDD144.2000407@charter.net>
 <CANij+dfyURKMXvzUAhL+Sz57HLa9iK6TgKx3mbX9fk4gx4Bv5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261738120.22418@shell.lmi.net>
 <5DDDD54B.5050309@charter.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261749440.22418@shell.lmi.net>
 <5DDDE432.2010900@charter.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261853500.22418@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <20191127122959.08EC5274D0@mx1.ezwind.net>

At 09:05 PM 11/26/2019, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>Video Toaster, while a niche product, really showed the advantages of Amiga.  Up until a few years ago, when the Cable TV system crashed, it would display a "Guru Meditation Number"!
>"But there HAS to be a Macintosh version!"
>"OK, OK."  It's a bigger box, and if you look inside there's an Amiga motherboard. (or so I'm told)

At some COMDEX, NewTek won a "Best in Show" crystal trophy for the PS/2
version of the Toaster, which was a GUI I wrote in Visual BASIC
that sent ARexx commands over the serial port to a real (Amiga) Toaster 
hidden under the table, but who's counting.

- John


From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Wed Nov 27 06:47:18 2019
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 12:47:18 +0000 (WET)
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <5DDDEAE0.9040903@charter.net>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <CANij+ddZk-7WZk9YuvsEdb8JSQwJuFbpWRVLuF1v6T+5FpwauQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5DDDD144.2000407@charter.net>
 <CANij+dfyURKMXvzUAhL+Sz57HLa9iK6TgKx3mbX9fk4gx4Bv5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261738120.22418@shell.lmi.net>
 <5DDDD54B.5050309@charter.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261749440.22418@shell.lmi.net>
 <5DDDE432.2010900@charter.net>
 <714d744e-b68d-c9b6-0c7f-604edbc0a243@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <01REAYEN3DTI8X39WT@beyondthepale.ie>

Rich wrote:
>
> Chuck,
>      I don't know anything about this system. I don't consider Minis and 
> MainFrames to be Personal Computers. It must fit in a small room, run on 
> a 120VAC 5Amp service, and not require 3 tons of AC to keep it cool to 
> fit in to the Personal Computer definition.
> GOD Bless and Thanks,
> rich!
>

Well, I don't regard it as a Personal Computer if I have to lug around
a 2:1ish voltage stepdown transformer along with it in order to power it.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us  Wed Nov 27 07:27:55 2019
From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 08:27:55 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Scanning docs for bitsavers
In-Reply-To: <20191127121447.4638E18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20191127121447.4638E18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.21.1911270819460.52080@cpumagic.137clearview.org>

On Wed, 27 Nov 2019, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:

>    > From: Jay Jaeger
>
>    > CCITT Group 4 lossless compression
>
> That's very good indeed. I scan text pages in B+W at slightly less resolution
> (engineering prints I do higher, they need it), but compressed they turn out
> to be ~50KB per page, or less - for long documents (e.g. the DOS-11 System
> Programmer's Manual), that produces a reasonably-sized file.
>
>    > The software I have been using i[s] Irfanview.
>
> That's what I use too; it has tons of useful features, including being able
> to drive my single-sided page-feed scanner and being able to number the
> even-sided pages correctly. The one I use for this is the 'batch mode'; I can
> do the entire document into CCITT 4 in one operation.

    For scanning software, I highly recommend VueScan:

https://www.hamrick.com/

    There are Linux, Windows and Mac versions, and it supports thousands of 
scanner models, including some very old ones. VueScan can also do CCITT G4 
compression, and directly create PDF files. If you but the pro version, 
updates are free. I've been using it for years.


Mike Loewen				mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology				http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Nov 27 08:46:58 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 06:46:58 -0800
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCE6TwPe3VtdmKy9QYjyVDnaaBGcQH6cKyf-9KbKPiX2eg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <51E168504CC648FABED8E808A5103085@teoPC>
 <6a90f74b-56c3-b682-8f3b-d453a09a0ec4@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <145bfc80-2e25-9b69-099d-20047998545b@sydex.com>
 <CAMTenCE6TwPe3VtdmKy9QYjyVDnaaBGcQH6cKyf-9KbKPiX2eg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <588f7646-bdff-6d62-9bae-ab9911b505a2@sydex.com>

On 11/27/19 3:52 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Nov 2019 at 04:02, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> Other than in very low-level MCUs, I don't see 8 bit micros making a
>> comeback.  And 32/64 bits seems to be the rule for MCUs today.
> 
> You might be surprised.

No, I meant "commercially viable" computers.  Hobbyist stuff is
interesting, but to be honest, one could sell a steam-powered 1-bit
computer to the hard-bitten hobbyists.

I have zero interest in computer games.

--Chuck


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Wed Nov 27 08:55:26 2019
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 09:55:26 -0500
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <51E168504CC648FABED8E808A5103085@teoPC>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <51E168504CC648FABED8E808A5103085@teoPC>
Message-ID: <96778287-B67F-4CE9-8619-7A9B27053148@comcast.net>



> On Nov 26, 2019, at 9:09 PM, TeoZ via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Patents are generally used to document who invented what first. Commercial success building on old research and patents tends to be what is remembered.

"who invented what first" -- sort of.  More precisely, who filed a patent application first, and then depending on whether the patent office noticed the prior art.

One of my favorite examples is the patent issued to Abraham Lincoln for an invention that actually has prior art going back about two centuries.

> So what if some guy in 1761 heated up a wire until it glowed releasing light, it took many people over a long time to come up with a usable cheap light bulb design and the inventions that brought electricity into cities and peoples houses to power those bulbs that people will remember.
> ...
> The people who invented something epic tend to not have commercial success because pretty much most ground breaking patents tend to expire before they truly become useful and because of the need for other inventions to make them commercially usable.

There are lots of examples like this.  Columbus is a good one: not the first European to set foot in America, but the first whose visit led to a large and lasting historic impact.  Or the one I have been investigating recently: FM radio wasn't first done by Edwin Armstrong, but his work led to the current use of FM while the earlier work of Idzerda did not.

Incidentally, that demonstrates the limitations of patents as a source of historical evidence: Idzerda has a US Patent, but Armstrong's patents, filed some years later, do not cite that prior art or make any mention of it.

	paul



From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Nov 27 09:13:29 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 16:13:29 +0100
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <588f7646-bdff-6d62-9bae-ab9911b505a2@sydex.com>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <51E168504CC648FABED8E808A5103085@teoPC>
 <6a90f74b-56c3-b682-8f3b-d453a09a0ec4@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <145bfc80-2e25-9b69-099d-20047998545b@sydex.com>
 <CAMTenCE6TwPe3VtdmKy9QYjyVDnaaBGcQH6cKyf-9KbKPiX2eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <588f7646-bdff-6d62-9bae-ab9911b505a2@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCHp=TyXtWQgYwN1GuThBi6ScwZtWAzquFW0cyK_emhRKw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 27 Nov 2019 at 15:47, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> No, I meant "commercially viable" computers.

[1] You didn't say that, though.

[2] If it sells enough units for someone to make a living off it, that
is the _definition_ of "commercially viable".

As such, my first link qualifies. See:
https://rc2014.co.uk/history/

?
By May 2016 things were getting busy enough that I had to quit my full
time network infrastructure engineer job to dedicate my time to
RC2014?
?

>  Hobbyist stuff is
> interesting

My last link, the CB2, it based on an ATmega644. The AVR series had
sold 500 million units by 2003, and vendor Atmel was sold to Microchip
Technology for US$3.6 billion, 3 years ago. Microchip make the PIC32
used in the MaxiMite which I also linked to.

These devices sell, today, in the *billions* of units. Many have 8-bit
architectures.

Is that "commercially viable" enough for you? E.g. is outselling all
Intel x86 products annually significant enough?

Zilog still sells derivatives of the Z80 such as the Z180 and eZ80,
today. Modern Z80s run at up to 50MHz.

This is *not* a hobbyist business. It is a very large, profitable,
commercial, mainstream market.

The fact that hobbyists built little educational standalone computers
around them is really neither here nor there. It's a rounding error.
To think that because people build such stuff with them, or because
the Z80 once powered the Micro-Professor MPF-I, is to say that DEC was
a vendor of home and hobbyist toy computers because most of the
machines running today are maintained by hobbyists.

> I have zero interest in computer games.

Well, I have _slightly_ more than that -- in fact I actually bought a
new video game this year, for the first time in about 18 years -- but
really very little.

But you don't get kids interested in programming by telling them that
they can implement VisiCalc.

Most of us got interested in this stuff as kids, I suspect. I
certainly did. If we don't get more kids interested, then the field
will die.

So I suggest that you are trying (and, incidentally, failing) to be
too selective and judgemental and are failing to notice the forest
we're all standing in because you've found a beetle on the bark of the
nearest tree.

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Wed Nov 27 09:33:03 2019
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 15:33:03 +0000
Subject: The information age
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261921320.22418@shell.lmi.net>
References: <BYAPR01MB560839EF75EA2990D077110FA3450@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAD2R3is0y7V3gRGZ7nbtjWPPzrw9L0LyWHi4R1nsDTs1c8jzEQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261921320.22418@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <BYAPR01MB5608A4106D9D739174867BC5A3440@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>

I thought most old traffic light controllers used 1802s.
Some early printers used Prolog cpu boards with 4004s. They also used 4004s in some early cash registers as well but I'd not known they were used in traffic lights.
I have an example of some code written for what I believe was a printer that came off a Prolog board. One can see that it took a simple keyboard input and wrote out several single value including a CRLF to some terminal device. It was interesting that I found a new use for the JCN instruction in this code. It is possible to create an "always don't jump" or a SKIP instruction. It messed up my disassembly because it didn't understand the operation of a conditional jump with not condition. I was able to modify my disassembler to handle this as well and added a new non-Intel instruction to my assembler.
Dwight


________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2019 7:23 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: The information age

On Tue, 26 Nov 2019, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote:
> " ... like to write their own version"
> It's a good thing no one else ever wrote their own version of history ...
> oh, wait, _everyone_ does that!  They once called it "To the victor goes
> the spoils (of victory)."

"History is written by the victors" is often attributed to Winston
Churchill, but its origin is really unkown.


> It's "lawsuit", not "law suite", BTW.  Slingers of code and CAD layouts
> have to get every single character and trace absolutely correct.

Sometimes it becomes a suite of suits filed by the suits.

From edcross at gmail.com  Wed Nov 27 09:54:10 2019
From: edcross at gmail.com (Ed C.)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 16:54:10 +0100
Subject: The information age
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261921320.22418@shell.lmi.net>
References: <BYAPR01MB560839EF75EA2990D077110FA3450@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CAD2R3is0y7V3gRGZ7nbtjWPPzrw9L0LyWHi4R1nsDTs1c8jzEQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261921320.22418@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CA+6V905740xpEtT0YbGcw0zRn7pgmgBt2iHrjQMYaACJ-7OVOQ@mail.gmail.com>

Add to that: History is rewritten by power.

On Wed, Nov 27, 2019 at 4:23 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> On Tue, 26 Nov 2019, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote:
> > " ... like to write their own version"
> > It's a good thing no one else ever wrote their own version of history ...
> > oh, wait, _everyone_ does that!  They once called it "To the victor goes
> > the spoils (of victory)."
>
> "History is written by the victors" is often attributed to Winston
> Churchill, but its origin is really unkown.
>
>
> > It's "lawsuit", not "law suite", BTW.  Slingers of code and CAD layouts
> > have to get every single character and trace absolutely correct.
>
> Sometimes it becomes a suite of suits filed by the suits.
>

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Wed Nov 27 09:54:56 2019
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 15:54:56 +0000
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <5DDDEAE0.9040903@charter.net>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <CANij+ddZk-7WZk9YuvsEdb8JSQwJuFbpWRVLuF1v6T+5FpwauQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5DDDD144.2000407@charter.net>
 <CANij+dfyURKMXvzUAhL+Sz57HLa9iK6TgKx3mbX9fk4gx4Bv5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261738120.22418@shell.lmi.net>
 <5DDDD54B.5050309@charter.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261749440.22418@shell.lmi.net>
 <5DDDE432.2010900@charter.net>
 <714d744e-b68d-c9b6-0c7f-604edbc0a243@sydex.com>
 <5DDDEAE0.9040903@charter.net>
Message-ID: <BYAPR20MB2757C88ED27F0AA4082052F7ED440@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>

On 11/26/19 10:17 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote:
> Chuck,
>  ??? I don't know anything about this system. I don't consider Minis and 
> MainFrames to be Personal Computers. It must fit in a small room, run on 
> a 120VAC 5Amp service, and not require 3 tons of AC to keep it cool to 
> fit in to the Personal Computer definition.

Well, let's see, what have I had that fit that description?

Several VAX
Several PDP-11's
A couple of Prime 50-series

bill


From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Wed Nov 27 10:12:34 2019
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 17:12:34 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Scanning docs for bitsavers
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.21.1911270819460.52080@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
References: <20191127121447.4638E18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <alpine.LFD.2.21.1911270819460.52080@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1911271652540.3556@linuxserv.home>

On Wed, 27 Nov 2019, mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Nov 2019, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
>> That's what I use too; it has tons of useful features, including being able
>> to drive my single-sided page-feed scanner and being able to number the
>> even-sided pages correctly. The one I use for this is the 'batch mode'; I 
>> can
>> do the entire document into CCITT 4 in one operation.
>
>   For scanning software, I highly recommend VueScan:
>
> https://www.hamrick.com/
>
>   There are Linux, Windows and Mac versions, and it supports thousands of 
> scanner models, including some very old ones. VueScan can also do CCITT G4 
> compression, and directly create PDF files. If you but the pro version, 
> updates are free. I've been using it for years.

My recommendation: use a proper multi-function copier (the big copiers) 
that can also scan to network. I currently use our big Konica-Minolta 
bizhub 754. Although it'a b/w copier, it can also scan in color. This 
machine scans a two-sided page without flipping the paper, resolution 
600dpi, color/bw, and I scan to TIFF multipage images (sometimes I use 
JPEG for color pages). No problems scanning a batch of A3 schematics ;-)

Then I use tumble (either directly on the generated .tif or after 
tiffsplit and rearranging pages) and ocrmypdf to produce the PDF file.
I guess my setup is much faster than Al's ;-)))

Christian

From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Wed Nov 27 10:19:22 2019
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 17:19:22 +0100 (CET)
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <5DDDEAE0.9040903@charter.net>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <CANij+ddZk-7WZk9YuvsEdb8JSQwJuFbpWRVLuF1v6T+5FpwauQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5DDDD144.2000407@charter.net>
 <CANij+dfyURKMXvzUAhL+Sz57HLa9iK6TgKx3mbX9fk4gx4Bv5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261738120.22418@shell.lmi.net>
 <5DDDD54B.5050309@charter.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261749440.22418@shell.lmi.net>
 <5DDDE432.2010900@charter.net>
 <714d744e-b68d-c9b6-0c7f-604edbc0a243@sydex.com>
 <5DDDEAE0.9040903@charter.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1911271716440.3556@linuxserv.home>

On Tue, 26 Nov 2019, Richard Pope wrote:
>    I don't know anything about this system. I don't consider Minis and 
> MainFrames to be Personal Computers. It must fit in a small room, run on a 
> 120VAC 5Amp service, and not require 3 tons of AC to keep it cool to fit in 
> to the Personal Computer definition.

Therefore I (and others BTW) consider the LGP-30 to be the first Personal 
Computer. You know, the definition of a PC is that you can directly access 
and operate the computer and it is only doing what you want.

Christian

From elson at pico-systems.com  Wed Nov 27 10:39:21 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 10:39:21 -0600
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <1a0a87e7-42b6-ee4f-c79f-8f33bbd1e9c5@alembic.crystel.com>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <CANij+ddZk-7WZk9YuvsEdb8JSQwJuFbpWRVLuF1v6T+5FpwauQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5DDDD144.2000407@charter.net>
 <CANij+dfyURKMXvzUAhL+Sz57HLa9iK6TgKx3mbX9fk4gx4Bv5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261738120.22418@shell.lmi.net>
 <5DDDD54B.5050309@charter.net>
 <1a0a87e7-42b6-ee4f-c79f-8f33bbd1e9c5@alembic.crystel.com>
Message-ID: <5DDEA6B9.6000301@pico-systems.com>

On 11/26/2019 08:59 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
>
>
> It wasn't just having the technology, it was having it and 
> knowing how to market it. You need both to make a good 
> product and DEC really was all about protecting their 
> current market share (which is insane as they came to be 
> by exploiting a niche in the computer industry).
>
Yup.  We were a big VAX user, and were accustomed to our 
salesman and a technical guy coming out for a sales call to 
iron out exactly what features and options we wanted on a 
machine.  When the MicroVAX came out, for a purchase price 
less than EITHER the software or hardware maintenance 
contract on a VAX 11/780, I know this couldn't go on.  When 
they went to the 3100/3500 Pizza box machines, I know it 
REALLY was unsustainable.

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Wed Nov 27 10:47:20 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 10:47:20 -0600
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <145bfc80-2e25-9b69-099d-20047998545b@sydex.com>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <51E168504CC648FABED8E808A5103085@teoPC>
 <6a90f74b-56c3-b682-8f3b-d453a09a0ec4@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <145bfc80-2e25-9b69-099d-20047998545b@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <5DDEA898.1040108@pico-systems.com>

On 11/26/2019 09:02 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> CDC had a scorched-earth policy when it came to leased 
> mainframes. I suspect that IBM did also. I witnessed CEs 
> taking sledgehammers and bolt cutters to several 
> interesting mainframes. The official directive was that 
> nothing was to leave the facility that could be re-sold.
Were these leased machines or customer-owned machines?

I don't know about CDC, but IBM would very gently 
disassemble and prepare for shipping any mainframe so the 
customer could sell it on to another outfit.  They would 
often do this EVEN IF it had been made clear the machine was 
going to the scrapyard.
There was a HUGE second market in IBM mainframe gear at one 
time (late 60's to mid 70's at least.)

CDC may have had many more custom/one-of-a-kind machines, 
while IBM had tons of identical units in the field.
Maybe that makes a difference.

And, IBM moved leased machines around like they were 
dominoes.  But, yes, if they had a leased machine that they 
KNEW would never be used again, they would not dump it at 
the customer's back dock, it would be trucked off to SOMEWHERE.

As for the 360's, they HAD to keep them for spare parts, as 
they were maintaining (generally owned, not leased) 360 
machines WAY after the SLT factory was shut down.  This came 
to a head when they were directed to keep the National 
Airspace System running WELL PAST its "sell by" date, and 
they reclaimed all machines extant, including owned 
machines, to scavenge them for parts.

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Wed Nov 27 10:51:31 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 10:51:31 -0600
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261912290.22418@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <CANij+ddZk-7WZk9YuvsEdb8JSQwJuFbpWRVLuF1v6T+5FpwauQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5DDDD144.2000407@charter.net>
 <CANij+dfyURKMXvzUAhL+Sz57HLa9iK6TgKx3mbX9fk4gx4Bv5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261738120.22418@shell.lmi.net>
 <5DDDD54B.5050309@charter.net>
 <1a0a87e7-42b6-ee4f-c79f-8f33bbd1e9c5@alembic.crystel.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261912290.22418@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <5DDEA993.2090808@pico-systems.com>

On 11/26/2019 09:16 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> Good point.
>
> Some companies that COULD HAVE been the leaders made great 
> inventions and/or engineering, and then fumbled the 
> marketing.
Konrad Zuse was another one, for sure.  Bendix created the 
first personal computer, the G-15.
Packard-Bell?  Univac supposedly sold the FIRST commercial 
computers, as opposed to one-of-a-kind
machines at research institutes.  Honeywell and GE?

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Wed Nov 27 10:54:04 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 10:54:04 -0600
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <DM6PR06MB50529A8F9EE5777B5679DB62BA440@DM6PR06MB5052.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <51E168504CC648FABED8E808A5103085@teoPC>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261838170.22418@shell.lmi.net>,
 <F880F80B2BD54F89947B24D8D2E196A8@310e2>
 <DM6PR06MB50529A8F9EE5777B5679DB62BA440@DM6PR06MB5052.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <5DDEAA2C.6020706@pico-systems.com>

On 11/26/2019 09:26 PM, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote:
> No, this was the first personal computer...
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tektronix_4050#/media/File:Tektronix_4051_ad_April_1976.jpg
>
>
Yes, and they were pretty cool, but try the Bendix G-15, 
more than a decade earlier.

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Wed Nov 27 10:55:43 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 10:55:43 -0600
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <DM6PR06MB50529A8F9EE5777B5679DB62BA440@DM6PR06MB5052.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <51E168504CC648FABED8E808A5103085@teoPC>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261838170.22418@shell.lmi.net>,
 <F880F80B2BD54F89947B24D8D2E196A8@310e2>
 <DM6PR06MB50529A8F9EE5777B5679DB62BA440@DM6PR06MB5052.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <5DDEAA8F.1010808@pico-systems.com>

On 11/26/2019 09:26 PM, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote:
> No, this was the first personal computer...
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tektronix_4050#/media/File:Tektronix_4051_ad_April_1976.jpg
>
>
Oh, another one is the LINC, designed from the ground up for 
personal interaction with one user.
Circa 1964.

Jon

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Nov 27 11:19:36 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 09:19:36 -0800
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <5DDEA898.1040108@pico-systems.com>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <51E168504CC648FABED8E808A5103085@teoPC>
 <6a90f74b-56c3-b682-8f3b-d453a09a0ec4@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <145bfc80-2e25-9b69-099d-20047998545b@sydex.com>
 <5DDEA898.1040108@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <91b78df2-9df8-cb9f-d44d-d9e89d9b8cc8@sydex.com>

On 11/27/19 8:47 AM, Jon Elson wrote:

> CDC may have had many more custom/one-of-a-kind machines, while IBM had
> tons of identical units in the field.

The "scorched earth" policy came right from the top- After it was
discovered that some "customer' had assembled a working system from
scavenged parts and then signed up for CE service, Bill Norris
reportedly hit the ceiling.

I saw one-of-a-kind systems utterly demolished.   If a functional
subassembly was removed, the order was to damage it with prejudice.

I have a heatsink from a STAR-1B computer--that was the only bit in the
dumpster that remained recognizable.  The stations and SBUs were
repurposed as spares for the STAR-100. CDC Sunnyvale had the only two
1Bs at the time.   The STAR-65 was shipped down from Canada and
similarly demolished.  The same fate befell countless peripherals and
older systems like the 160A that managed to find their way into the
facility. I've got a few oddball cordwood modules and a head from an 808
disk drive.  That's about it.  I used to have a platter from one, but it
was left behind in a move.

--Chuck


From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Nov 27 11:29:47 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 09:29:47 -0800
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCHp=TyXtWQgYwN1GuThBi6ScwZtWAzquFW0cyK_emhRKw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <51E168504CC648FABED8E808A5103085@teoPC>
 <6a90f74b-56c3-b682-8f3b-d453a09a0ec4@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <145bfc80-2e25-9b69-099d-20047998545b@sydex.com>
 <CAMTenCE6TwPe3VtdmKy9QYjyVDnaaBGcQH6cKyf-9KbKPiX2eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <588f7646-bdff-6d62-9bae-ab9911b505a2@sydex.com>
 <CAMTenCHp=TyXtWQgYwN1GuThBi6ScwZtWAzquFW0cyK_emhRKw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <93cd2f02-5bad-012b-eba0-f105b443a778@sydex.com>

On 11/27/19 7:13 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:

Okay, you're right and I'm wrong.   Everyone should play games on their
8 bit computers because they'll grow up to be real computer scientists.

--Chuck

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Wed Nov 27 12:00:57 2019
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 13:00:57 -0500
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <BYAPR20MB2757C88ED27F0AA4082052F7ED440@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <CANij+ddZk-7WZk9YuvsEdb8JSQwJuFbpWRVLuF1v6T+5FpwauQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5DDDD144.2000407@charter.net>
 <CANij+dfyURKMXvzUAhL+Sz57HLa9iK6TgKx3mbX9fk4gx4Bv5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261738120.22418@shell.lmi.net>
 <5DDDD54B.5050309@charter.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261749440.22418@shell.lmi.net>
 <5DDDE432.2010900@charter.net>
 <714d744e-b68d-c9b6-0c7f-604edbc0a243@sydex.com>
 <5DDDEAE0.9040903@charter.net>
 <BYAPR20MB2757C88ED27F0AA4082052F7ED440@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <9CCC0B6D-581B-4124-8B30-3BB7556E415D@comcast.net>



> On Nov 27, 2019, at 10:54 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On 11/26/19 10:17 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote:
>> Chuck,
>>     I don't know anything about this system. I don't consider Minis and 
>> MainFrames to be Personal Computers. It must fit in a small room, run on 
>> a 120VAC 5Amp service, and not require 3 tons of AC to keep it cool to 
>> fit in to the Personal Computer definition.
> 
> Well, let's see, what have I had that fit that description?
> 
> Several VAX
> Several PDP-11's
> A couple of Prime 50-series
> 
> bill

I think you can go back a bit further.

Electrologica X-1 (from 1958).  And how about the LGP-30?

	paul


From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Wed Nov 27 12:21:34 2019
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 18:21:34 +0000
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <9CCC0B6D-581B-4124-8B30-3BB7556E415D@comcast.net>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <CANij+ddZk-7WZk9YuvsEdb8JSQwJuFbpWRVLuF1v6T+5FpwauQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5DDDD144.2000407@charter.net>
 <CANij+dfyURKMXvzUAhL+Sz57HLa9iK6TgKx3mbX9fk4gx4Bv5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261738120.22418@shell.lmi.net>
 <5DDDD54B.5050309@charter.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261749440.22418@shell.lmi.net>
 <5DDDE432.2010900@charter.net>
 <714d744e-b68d-c9b6-0c7f-604edbc0a243@sydex.com>
 <5DDDEAE0.9040903@charter.net>
 <BYAPR20MB2757C88ED27F0AA4082052F7ED440@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <9CCC0B6D-581B-4124-8B30-3BB7556E415D@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <BYAPR20MB2757D02A7B63A652F79701D0ED440@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>

On 11/27/19 1:00 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Nov 27, 2019, at 10:54 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> On 11/26/19 10:17 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote:
>>> Chuck,
>>>      I don't know anything about this system. I don't consider Minis and
>>> MainFrames to be Personal Computers. It must fit in a small room, run on
>>> a 120VAC 5Amp service, and not require 3 tons of AC to keep it cool to
>>> fit in to the Personal Computer definition.
>>
>> Well, let's see, what have I had that fit that description?
>>
>> Several VAX
>> Several PDP-11's
>> A couple of Prime 50-series
>>
>> bill
> 
> I think you can go back a bit further.
> 
> Electrologica X-1 (from 1958).  And how about the LGP-30?
> 

I was only talking about ones I have personally had that met the
description.

bill


From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Nov 27 12:28:24 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 19:28:24 +0100
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <93cd2f02-5bad-012b-eba0-f105b443a778@sydex.com>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <51E168504CC648FABED8E808A5103085@teoPC>
 <6a90f74b-56c3-b682-8f3b-d453a09a0ec4@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <145bfc80-2e25-9b69-099d-20047998545b@sydex.com>
 <CAMTenCE6TwPe3VtdmKy9QYjyVDnaaBGcQH6cKyf-9KbKPiX2eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <588f7646-bdff-6d62-9bae-ab9911b505a2@sydex.com>
 <CAMTenCHp=TyXtWQgYwN1GuThBi6ScwZtWAzquFW0cyK_emhRKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <93cd2f02-5bad-012b-eba0-f105b443a778@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGauO+aftEXQ8DT8K7RQVpv-3Okhvwm7bSWQPn3huZFCA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 27 Nov 2019 at 18:29, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> On 11/27/19 7:13 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
>
> Okay, you're right and I'm wrong.   Everyone should play games on their
> 8 bit computers because they'll grow up to be real computer scientists.

Play, no.

Write, yes. Or at least be offered the chance to learn to do it, if they want.

And I reckon quite a few of them will go on to do it for a living. As
I did, indirectly. As Terry Pratchett said: "It?s indoor work with no
heavy lifting."


-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From mechanic_2 at charter.net  Wed Nov 27 12:30:12 2019
From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 12:30:12 -0600
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <5DDEA6B9.6000301@pico-systems.com>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <CANij+ddZk-7WZk9YuvsEdb8JSQwJuFbpWRVLuF1v6T+5FpwauQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5DDDD144.2000407@charter.net>
 <CANij+dfyURKMXvzUAhL+Sz57HLa9iK6TgKx3mbX9fk4gx4Bv5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261738120.22418@shell.lmi.net>
 <5DDDD54B.5050309@charter.net>
 <1a0a87e7-42b6-ee4f-c79f-8f33bbd1e9c5@alembic.crystel.com>
 <5DDEA6B9.6000301@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <5DDEC0B4.4060103@charter.net>

Hello all,
     Commodore had the marketing part down pact. That is one of the 
reasons that at the time Commodore sold more C-64s than all of the other 
computers combined.
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!

On 11/27/2019 10:39 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
> On 11/26/2019 08:59 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
>>
>>
>> It wasn't just having the technology, it was having it and knowing 
>> how to market it. You need both to make a good product and DEC really 
>> was all about protecting their current market share (which is insane 
>> as they came to be by exploiting a niche in the computer industry).
>>
> Yup.  We were a big VAX user, and were accustomed to our salesman and 
> a technical guy coming out for a sales call to iron out exactly what 
> features and options we wanted on a machine.  When the MicroVAX came 
> out, for a purchase price less than EITHER the software or hardware 
> maintenance contract on a VAX 11/780, I know this couldn't go on.  
> When they went to the 3100/3500 Pizza box machines, I know it REALLY 
> was unsustainable.
>
> Jon
>


From rickb at bensene.com  Wed Nov 27 12:37:03 2019
From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 10:37:03 -0800
Subject: The Internet Archive
Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107BB3B@mail.bensene.com>

Ethan O'Toole wrote:

> We owe a ton of props to the Internet Archive. While they might not
have 
> everything, they have a glimpse into the early days of the internet
and 
> have been at it since early on.

Here here.   I very much second Ethan's sentiments regarding the
Internet Archive.

It's a daunting effort to scrape and store all that information.
Fortunately, deduplication and compression technologies have come  a
long way, and long-term, online storage of large amounts of data
processed as such has become much less expensive due to the huge
decreases in the cost-per-bit of spinning rust.   

Despite all of that, it's still a lot to store, and even with these
technologies, there are costs involved for staffing, servers, as well as
continually adding storage.

Any and all support the Internet Archive can be given is well-deserved,
in my opinion.

Shameless plug:
I make regular donations to the Internet Archive, and right now, they
are have a 2-to-1 matching gift campaign going on due to pledges from
corporate and institutional donors, so if you possibly can make a
donation, head over to https://archive.org and give help support this
valuable /free/ resource.  I just made a $25 donation myself.  Every
little bit helps.

Best wishes for a happy and safe Thanksgiving holiday to all,

-Rick
--
Rick Bensene
The Old Calculator Museum
http://oldcalculatormuseum.com
Beavercreek, Oregon   USA


From silent700 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 27 13:56:40 2019
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 13:56:40 -0600
Subject: Scanning docs for bitsavers
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1911271652540.3556@linuxserv.home>
References: <20191127121447.4638E18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <alpine.LFD.2.21.1911270819460.52080@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1911271652540.3556@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SHiJh7f53nxs2=PvdE7yO0BNzDUq+mCGoAjXmuHk2_k6g@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 27, 2019 at 10:12 AM Christian Corti via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> My recommendation: use a proper multi-function copier (the big copiers)
> that can also scan to network. I currently use our big Konica-Minolta
> bizhub 754. Although it'a b/w copier, it can also scan in color. This

These are great for cranking through big stacks of paper, but watch
out for the presets.  Some (like the older Xerox I used to use at
work) would scan to "TIFF"...which was really a JPG-compressed image
in a TIFF wrapper.  So even my 600dpi bilevel scans would have
compression artifacts.

All manufacturers are different, YMMV, etc.  Just something I got
burned on and worth watching out for.

j

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Wed Nov 27 14:01:37 2019
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 15:01:37 -0500
Subject: Scanning docs for bitsavers
In-Reply-To: <CAEfH1SHiJh7f53nxs2=PvdE7yO0BNzDUq+mCGoAjXmuHk2_k6g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20191127121447.4638E18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <alpine.LFD.2.21.1911270819460.52080@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1911271652540.3556@linuxserv.home>
 <CAEfH1SHiJh7f53nxs2=PvdE7yO0BNzDUq+mCGoAjXmuHk2_k6g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7F8613BF-DFC4-42FD-88BB-364DC20C814D@comcast.net>



> On Nov 27, 2019, at 2:56 PM, Jason T via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Nov 27, 2019 at 10:12 AM Christian Corti via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> My recommendation: use a proper multi-function copier (the big copiers)
>> that can also scan to network. I currently use our big Konica-Minolta
>> bizhub 754. Although it'a b/w copier, it can also scan in color. This
> 
> These are great for cranking through big stacks of paper, but watch
> out for the presets.  Some (like the older Xerox I used to use at
> work) would scan to "TIFF"...which was really a JPG-compressed image
> in a TIFF wrapper.  So even my 600dpi bilevel scans would have
> compression artifacts.

Another problem with bilevel scans is that, on some machines at least, they can be very noisy.  That's what I saw on the copier/scanner at the office.  For good scans I use gray scale scanning, with post-processing if desired to convert to clean bilevel data, without all the noise.  Not only does it make looking at the material more pleasant, but it also makes the files much smaller -- noise doesn't compress well.

	paul


From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Wed Nov 27 14:21:13 2019
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 21:21:13 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Scanning docs for bitsavers
In-Reply-To: <7F8613BF-DFC4-42FD-88BB-364DC20C814D@comcast.net>
References: <20191127121447.4638E18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <alpine.LFD.2.21.1911270819460.52080@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1911271652540.3556@linuxserv.home>
 <CAEfH1SHiJh7f53nxs2=PvdE7yO0BNzDUq+mCGoAjXmuHk2_k6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <7F8613BF-DFC4-42FD-88BB-364DC20C814D@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1911272118040.6776@linuxserv.home>

On Wed, 27 Nov 2019, Paul Koning wrote:
>> On Nov 27, 2019, at 2:56 PM, Jason T via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 27, 2019 at 10:12 AM Christian Corti via cctalk
>> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>> My recommendation: use a proper multi-function copier (the big copiers)
>>> that can also scan to network. I currently use our big Konica-Minolta
>>> bizhub 754. Although it'a b/w copier, it can also scan in color. This
>>
>> These are great for cranking through big stacks of paper, but watch
>> out for the presets.  Some (like the older Xerox I used to use at
>> work) would scan to "TIFF"...which was really a JPG-compressed image
>> in a TIFF wrapper.  So even my 600dpi bilevel scans would have
>> compression artifacts.
>
> Another problem with bilevel scans is that, on some machines at least, 
> they can be very noisy.  That's what I saw on the copier/scanner at the 
> office.  For good scans I use gray scale scanning, with post-processing 
> if desired to convert to clean bilevel data, without all the noise. 
> Not only does it make looking at the material more pleasant, but it also 
> makes the files much smaller -- noise doesn't compress well.

You both are right, and I had to make the proper settings for getting 
clean b/w TIFF files without noise in black parts, but it is possible. And 
the bilevel TIFF files generated are G4 compressed.

Christian

From cz at alembic.crystel.com  Wed Nov 27 14:47:28 2019
From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 15:47:28 -0500
Subject: RL02 disk crashes and taking them apart
Message-ID: <281e1138-f3dd-caa4-f0e6-4c148d764e00@alembic.crystel.com>

One of the RL02 packs I have did not look happy upon inspection, so I 
opened it up. Note that it's a little more complicated to take these 
packs apart than simply pushing a small rod through the holes in the 
back of the pack handle: You have to take apart the whole handle 
mechanism to get to the pins holding the pack to the carriage in order 
to get the pack off. I'll post some pics of all that eventually.

Meantime, pictures of the disk. As you can see the top platter of the 
disk has a number of concentric rings and a hard crash ring. My guess is 
this thing was loaded in a bad RL02 that promptly trashed it. Oh well, 
one for the record books....

Pics at:
https://i.imgur.com/phdLWUF.jpg Close up of the damage
https://i.imgur.com/yQnt8BJ.jpg Overall shot of the disk

Never dull.
C


From curt at atarimuseum.com  Wed Nov 27 15:15:14 2019
From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt Vendel)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 16:15:14 -0500
Subject: VisiCorp VISI ON
Message-ID: <4C1B6612-561E-4678-B882-477ABB9F6881@atarimuseum.com>

Does anyone have original manuals/Disks for VISI ON?

I?m looking for an original set and any of the VISI ON specific program packages.





From derschjo at gmail.com  Wed Nov 27 15:19:30 2019
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 13:19:30 -0800
Subject: TSS/8 on RK05
In-Reply-To: <20191126094433.53cc7dd1@asrock>
References: <CADBZjLZqo-6A-Pcbbx9ZLJBHrQviZQ=1-LgoDsRVuGF8L1G_kw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191126094433.53cc7dd1@asrock>
Message-ID: <CADBZjLbyjVEz2H3vtY56SgN0UrakqsoRwhJq48FxGwRoZMeq7A@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 9:44 AM Lyle Bickley <lbickley at bickleywest.com>
wrote:

> Josh,
>
> THANK YOU (!) for the conversion of TSS from RF08 to RK05! I have a PDP-8/E
> with and RK05 and it will be fun to get TSS/8 running again.
>

You're very welcome!  Let me know how it goes.  Feel free to submit patches
:).

- Josh



>
> I had TSS/8 running years ago - on my PDP-12 and RF08 (w/2-disks!).
> Unfortunately, I donated both to the CHM in the mid-90's - and they've been
> sitting in their archives ever since :(
>
> Cheers,
> Lyle
> --
>
> On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 22:03:47 -0800
> Josh Dersch via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > Hi all --
> >
> > We've wanted to run TSS/8 on one of our PDP-8 systems at LCM+L for a long
> > time now, and while we contemplated either (a) restoring our RF08 or (b)
> > building an RF08 emulator, I decided it might be fun to investigate a
> third
> > option: (c) modify TSS/8 to run off hardware we already have running,
> > namely an RK05 drive.
> >
> > And it /was/ fun!  And seems to have been successful, as we now have
> TSS/8
> > running on our PDP-8/e.  Performance is acceptable, and it seems to be
> > stable so far.  The changes I made are here:
> >
> > https://github.com/livingcomputermuseum/cpus-pdp8
> >
> > This is a fork of a codebase that Brad Parker put together a number of
> > years back in which he did some serious work to get TSS/8 to build
> (amongst
> > other things).  I made use of this effort, which saved a lot of time and
> > made building/testing my changes quite straightforward.
> >
> > I also modified the disk image:  It's extended to 1MW (the maximum
> possible
> > without modifying the filesystem code) and I ported a couple of extra
> > programs to TSS/8 (CHEKMO and LISP).
> >
> > I figured some people here might also be able to take advantage of being
> > able to run TSS/8 from RK05.  I know RK8E's are pretty rare, but I'm also
> > guessing more people have them than have working fixed-head disks :).  If
> > you do give it a try, let me know if you run into any issues or if you
> have
> > any feature requests.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Josh
>
>
>
> --
> 73   NM6Y
> Bickley Consulting West Inc.
> https://bickleywest.com
>
> "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"
>

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Wed Nov 27 19:44:43 2019
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 18:44:43 -0700
Subject: The Internet Archive
In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107BB3B@mail.bensene.com>
References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107BB3B@mail.bensene.com>
Message-ID: <e2470a8e-2d9e-5344-1ecb-42b91303e2ec@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 11/27/2019 11:37 AM, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote:

> Here here.   I very much second Ethan's sentiments regarding the
> Internet Archive.
> 
> It's a daunting effort to scrape and store all that information.
> Fortunately, deduplication and compression technologies have come  a
> long way, and long-term, online storage of large amounts of data
> processed as such has become much less expensive due to the huge
> decreases in the cost-per-bit of spinning rust.

Well it is good thing, but the REAL Hyper-media is yet to come.

PROJECT XANADU *Founded 1960 * The Original Hypertext Project
http://xanadu.com/

> -Rick
> --
> Rick Bensene
> The Old Calculator Museum
> http://oldcalculatormuseum.com
> Beavercreek, Oregon   USA
> 
> 
Ben.


From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Wed Nov 27 20:19:18 2019
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 19:19:18 -0700
Subject: First Internet message and ...
In-Reply-To: <5DDEC0B4.4060103@charter.net>
References: <CAMvyYF81M1LsO0pxA0ASdxk0AQi77w=z0ftHE2Jft9rhKsFVyw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ffcd7044-89fc-d6b4-9915-c70b636f8b5a@sydex.com>
 <BYAPR20MB2757CCFEDD39E1AC66DE16F1ED450@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <72c9651d-e490-cd24-f2aa-152800723fab@sydex.com>
 <CANij+ddZk-7WZk9YuvsEdb8JSQwJuFbpWRVLuF1v6T+5FpwauQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5DDDD144.2000407@charter.net>
 <CANij+dfyURKMXvzUAhL+Sz57HLa9iK6TgKx3mbX9fk4gx4Bv5Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911261738120.22418@shell.lmi.net>
 <5DDDD54B.5050309@charter.net>
 <1a0a87e7-42b6-ee4f-c79f-8f33bbd1e9c5@alembic.crystel.com>
 <5DDEA6B9.6000301@pico-systems.com> <5DDEC0B4.4060103@charter.net>
Message-ID: <5b45c856-6d56-9aeb-ee5d-a13071926cf7@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 11/27/2019 11:30 AM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote:
> Hello all,
>  ??? Commodore had the marketing part down pact. That is one of the 
> reasons that at the time Commodore sold more C-64s than all of the other 
> computers combined.

I think it was more the case of who had the better games C/64 or COCO II.
I always liked the look of the Commodore PET, better than TV game box.
As for surplus computers from the 1970's they were more type of " 'Mom 
and Pop DATA CENTER' still uses a Brain-o-vac 36000 vacum tube computer"
or School of computing and fish farming now has second relay computer 
with a film punch/reader found say  Kilobaud Microcomputing Magazine.
Ben.
As a side note a few relay computers are still running in places other
than America like the Japanese FACOM128B, far more interesting to me 
than who sent the first internet message. I favor the Morse Code version
Indians seen SEN <lost carrier> :)








From silent700 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 27 21:01:20 2019
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 21:01:20 -0600
Subject: Scanning docs for bitsavers
In-Reply-To: <7F8613BF-DFC4-42FD-88BB-364DC20C814D@comcast.net>
References: <20191127121447.4638E18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <alpine.LFD.2.21.1911270819460.52080@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1911271652540.3556@linuxserv.home>
 <CAEfH1SHiJh7f53nxs2=PvdE7yO0BNzDUq+mCGoAjXmuHk2_k6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <7F8613BF-DFC4-42FD-88BB-364DC20C814D@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SGwM8xWm6AB7QK0QKc4gMCEFYA8q9i238-VqZovQaAwYA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 27, 2019 at 2:01 PM Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:

> Another problem with bilevel scans is that, on some machines at least, they can be very noisy.  That's what I saw on the copier/scanner at the office.  For good scans I use gray scale scanning, with post-processing if desired to convert to clean bilevel data, without all the noise.  Not only does it make looking at the material more pleasant, but it also makes the files much smaller -- noise doesn't compress well.

That's a good point.  With my Fujitsu's TWAIN driver, I've got a
choice of 2 or 3 scan algorithms, plus some sliders to tweak, and I
get good b/w scans.  With fewer options, a grey scan + post-processing
(another vote for IrfanView's batch mode) is the way to go.

From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com  Wed Nov 27 21:33:27 2019
From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 01:33:27 -0200
Subject: Scanning docs for bitsavers
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1911271652540.3556@linuxserv.home>
References: <20191127121447.4638E18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <alpine.LFD.2.21.1911270819460.52080@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1911271652540.3556@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <CANdZFKR5N8nbZ_baxPVMMd59TB5qvu2xrN4biif-KKU1Yp7Yqw@mail.gmail.com>

>My recommendation: use a proper multi-function copier (the big copiers)
>that can also scan to network. I currently use our big Konica-Minolta

I've got a Lexmark X646E full duplex printing/scanner. I'm still learning
how to use it at its max, but I believe I'll scan TONS of documents I have
stored home as soon as I learn how to PROPERLY do that.

Interesting machine. Very cheap, but with a very fast ADF duplex scanner. I
just need to learn all the adjusts and fix the ADF rollers.

Enviado do meu Tele-Movel

On Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 13:12 Christian Corti via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Wed, 27 Nov 2019, mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us wrote:
> > On Wed, 27 Nov 2019, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
> >> That's what I use too; it has tons of useful features, including being
> able
> >> to drive my single-sided page-feed scanner and being able to number the
> >> even-sided pages correctly. The one I use for this is the 'batch mode';
> I
> >> can
> >> do the entire document into CCITT 4 in one operation.
> >
> >   For scanning software, I highly recommend VueScan:
> >
> > https://www.hamrick.com/
> >
> >   There are Linux, Windows and Mac versions, and it supports thousands
> of
> > scanner models, including some very old ones. VueScan can also do CCITT
> G4
> > compression, and directly create PDF files. If you but the pro version,
> > updates are free. I've been using it for years.
>
> My recommendation: use a proper multi-function copier (the big copiers)
> that can also scan to network. I currently use our big Konica-Minolta
> bizhub 754. Although it'a b/w copier, it can also scan in color. This
> machine scans a two-sided page without flipping the paper, resolution
> 600dpi, color/bw, and I scan to TIFF multipage images (sometimes I use
> JPEG for color pages). No problems scanning a batch of A3 schematics ;-)
>
> Then I use tumble (either directly on the generated .tif or after
> tiffsplit and rearranging pages) and ocrmypdf to produce the PDF file.
> I guess my setup is much faster than Al's ;-)))
>
> Christian
>

From dkgrizzly at thewaffleiron.net  Wed Nov 27 22:46:32 2019
From: dkgrizzly at thewaffleiron.net (dkgrizzly at thewaffleiron.net)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 23:46:32 -0500
Subject: Intel 8272 based floppy controller & Missing Address Mark
Message-ID: <010301d5a5a6$cefcb600$6cf62200$@thewaffleiron.net>

Hi friends,

In the continuing saga of building a CP/M system with Pro-Log cards housed
in a Heathkit dual 8? floppy drive cabinet


I recently acquired a Pro-Log 7387 floppy disk controller card w/ manuals.
The 8272 chip on the card was fried (either before I got it, or by me doing
something stupid early on once I had acquired it), and so I replaced the
chip with another pulled from a 8-bit ISA floppy controller.  Now I am
getting some more reasonable replies out of the card.

Now I'm stuck with "Missing Address Mark" errors, no matter if I'm using a
real 8" floppy drive (8MHz FDC clock, appropriate settings in all the
software) or a GoTek floppy emulator (4MHz FDC clock, 720KB settings on the
GoTek & Floppy Disk Utility).
I can see the read data & read window lines working as I'd expect, so I'm
fairly confident that the read data separator and related logic is OK (I
even replaced the 74ls74 read data separator with no effect).
What am I missing that would cause a 8272 to always return Missing Address
Mark?

I'm using RomWBW, with the included FDU utility patched to talk to the FDC
at the correct addresses, and from the traces I've captured it appears that
side of things is working correct. I'm hoping someone out there has
experience troubleshooting floppy controllers?and can give me some pointers.

-David


------ Trace with GoTek running FlashFloppy and emulating a 720KB drive
follows -------

RetroBrew HBIOS v2.9.1-pre.5, 2019-11-23

PROLOG Z80 @ 3.686MHz
0 MEM W/S, 1 I/O W/S, INT MODE 1
512KB ROM, 2048KB RAM

SIO0: IO=0xF5 SIO MODE=9600,8,N,1
SIO1: IO=0xF7 SIO MODE=9600,8,N,1
MD: UNITS=2 ROMDISK=384KB RAMDISK=1920KB
FD: IO=0xC4 UNITS=2

Unit        Device      Type              Capacity/Mode
----------  ----------  ----------------  --------------------
Disk 0      MD1:        RAM Disk          1920KB,LBA
Disk 1      MD0:        ROM Disk          384KB,LBA
Disk 2      FD0:        Floppy Disk       3.5",DS/DD,CHS
Disk 3      FD1:        Floppy Disk       3.5",DS/DD,CHS
Serial 0    SIO0:       RS-232            9600,8,N,1
Serial 1    SIO1:       RS-232            9600,8,N,1

PROLOG Z80 Boot Loader

Boot: (C)PM, (Z)System, (M)onitor,
      (L)ist disks, or Disk Unit # ===> BOOT CPM FROM ROM


CBIOS v2.9.1-pre.5 [WBW]

Formatting RAMDISK...

Configuring Drives...

   A:=MD1:0
   B:=MD0:0
   C:=FD0:0
   D:=FD1:0

   3623 Disk Buffer Bytes Free

CP/M-80 v2.2, 54.0K TPA

B> FDU

Floppy Disk Utility (FDU) v5.2, 08-Jan-2018 [HBIOS]
Copyright (C) 2017, Wayne Warthen, GNU GPL v3

SELECT FLOPPY DISK CONTROLLER:
  (0) Exit
  (1) Disk IO ECB Board
  (2) Disk IO 3 ECB Board
  (3) Zeta SBC Onboard FDC
  (4) Zeta 2 SBC Onboard FDC
  (5) Dual IDE ECB Board
  (6) N8 Onboard FDC
  (7) RC2014 SMC (SMB)
  (8) ProLog 7387
=== OPTION ===> PL

===== PL ==============<< FDU MAIN MENU >>======================
(S)ETUP: UNIT=00  MEDIA=720KB    MODE=POLL        TRACE=00
----------------------------------------------------------------
(R)EAD          (W)RITE         (F)ORMAT        (V)ERIFY
(I)NIT BUFFER   (D)UMP BUFFER   FDC (C)MDS      E(X)IT
=== OPTION ===> FORMAT (T)RACK, (D)ISK ===> DISK
ENTER INTERLEAVE [01-09] (02):



RESET DRIVE...
PROGRESS: TRACK=4F HEAD=01 SECTOR=01

===== PL ==============<< FDU MAIN MENU >>======================
(S)ETUP: UNIT=00  MEDIA=720KB    MODE=POLL        TRACE=00
----------------------------------------------------------------
(R)EAD          (W)RITE         (F)ORMAT        (V)ERIFY
(I)NIT BUFFER   (D)UMP BUFFER   FDC (C)MDS      E(X)IT
=== OPTION ===> READ (S)ECTOR, (T)RACK, (D)ISK, (R)ANDOM ===> TRACK
ENTER TRACK [00-4F] (00):
ENTER HEAD [00-01] (00):


PROGRESS: TRACK=00 HEAD=00 SECTOR=01
READ: 46 00 00 00 01 02 09 2A FF --> 40 01 00 00 00 01 02 [MISSING ADDRESS
MARK]
CONTINUE? (A)BORT, (R)ETRY, (I)GNORE ===>


From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Nov 27 23:26:21 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 21:26:21 -0800
Subject: Intel 8272 based floppy controller & Missing Address Mark
In-Reply-To: <010301d5a5a6$cefcb600$6cf62200$@thewaffleiron.net>
References: <010301d5a5a6$cefcb600$6cf62200$@thewaffleiron.net>
Message-ID: <a073cb23-6ff0-4e78-40cf-88a7968d4907@sydex.com>

On 11/27/19 8:46 PM, David Kuder via cctalk wrote:
> Hi friends,
> 
> In the continuing saga of building a CP/M system with Pro-Log cards housed
> in a Heathkit dual 8? floppy drive cabinet?

If you're talking about ST2, bit 0 being set as an error, this can occur
for several reasons.

A. You're trying to read an FM-encoded disk in MFM mode, or vice-versa.
B. The address headers on the track aren't what you expect (e.g. first
sector on the track is 63 instead of expected 1.  Whatever formatted the
disk can put just about anything in the CHRN fields--and this is
sometimes used to separate different disk formats.
C. You're not on the right track.
D. If you're using an 8272 and *not* the 8272A, you could be running
into the extra-long "blind spot after index" of the older chip, meaning
that the first sector on the track may not be seen.  Even on the
8272A/NEC 765A, there are some formats written without an IDAM by other
controllers, which causes the 8272A to miss the first sector.

That's right off the top of my head--to see exactly what you're looking
at, try doing a READ ID and see what you get back, if anything.

--Chuck


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Nov 28 00:08:04 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 22:08:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Intel 8272 based floppy controller & Missing Address Mark
In-Reply-To: <010301d5a5a6$cefcb600$6cf62200$@thewaffleiron.net>
References: <010301d5a5a6$cefcb600$6cf62200$@thewaffleiron.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911272146510.5783@shell.lmi.net>

I'll agree with Chuck, that FM/MFM seems a likely possibility.

index blindness can prevent seeing the first sector, but it should see 
other sectors.

What is on the disk that you are trying to read?


You are using an 8" drive, but you mention settings for 720K. 
720K (MFM) is normally 250K bts per second (300 K at 360 RPM in a 1.2M)
8" (MFM) is normally 500K bits per second.
8" FM is 250K bits per second. 
Is the data transfer rate consistent with what you are trying to read?


Do you have a scratch disk that you can spare?
Set up the code to FORMAT a track (eventually appropriate loops to format 
the whole disk).
After formatting a track, and without doing any stepping to another track, 
try to read it.  FM/MFM and data transfer rates and even sector 
header (CHRN) should therefore be compatible.
If you have another machine, try reading THAT track on the other machine 
and check what it sees.


From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Thu Nov 28 04:40:09 2019
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 10:40:09 +0000
Subject: PDP - 8 Front panels
Message-ID: <bb504e10-113d-8e34-8322-d8b178d97a15@btinternet.com>

Hello Everybody

 ?After a two year pause due to my wife having been ill but now fully 
recovered I am back to starting making pdp-8 front panels again

I have some stock:

pdp-8/e (type A - vertical selector switch start mark)

pdp-8/e (type B -? selector? switch start to left of vertical)

pdp-8/f panels

As pdp8/f but no /f marking. - doing a /m overprint for it

pdp8/i

I am looking for scrap pdp/8 panels (might trade for a new one), hi res 
front (and back) dead center pictures (panel on its own) and accurate 
dimensions (including holes) of any pdp-8 panel to aid me in offering 
the complete range.

PDP-11 ?? Not at this time but maybe later

I am busy at the moment with artwork redrawing.

The UK winter is not kind to making screens.

Even in good warm weather the exposed and washed out screen in its frame 
takes 24 hours to dry.

Then after printing each layer (up to five per panel) takes 24hrs to dry 
before another layer can be added.

Authentic panels produced the exact way they were in the '60s and '70s 
ain't going to be quick or cheap.

But the result is sure worth it.


Rod 'Panelman' Smallwood (Digital Equipment Corporation 1975 - 1985)


-- 



From dk at thewaffleiron.net  Thu Nov 28 09:06:14 2019
From: dk at thewaffleiron.net (David Kuder)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 10:06:14 -0500
Subject: Intel 8272 based floppy controller & Missing Address Mark
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911272146510.5783@shell.lmi.net>
References: <010301d5a5a6$cefcb600$6cf62200$@thewaffleiron.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911272146510.5783@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CAHV+QdnL2zyU8ZKdRNBQL-880O1FQXvoO3v0g228VanL7h16hA@mail.gmail.com>

I've tried using the 8" drives as 8" drives with the clock input to the
8272 set correctly, and likewise with the 720KB 3.5" emulator (and even
360KB 5.25" emulation).  On physical and virtual disks I'm getting the same
error trying to read or write data. Formatting steps through all the tracks
without error, and I can see a write status indicator on the GoTek
display...

Across all of the formats I've tried, they use MFM and not FM, and I can
see the MFM bit set in the command byte.  I can try building FDU and the
BIOS to support FM encoded disks, and see if that works.  I'd love to see
some kind of progress, even if it is single density.

Thanks for the help,
-David

On Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 1:08 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> I'll agree with Chuck, that FM/MFM seems a likely possibility.
>
> index blindness can prevent seeing the first sector, but it should see
> other sectors.
>
> What is on the disk that you are trying to read?
>
>
> You are using an 8" drive, but you mention settings for 720K.
> 720K (MFM) is normally 250K bts per second (300 K at 360 RPM in a 1.2M)
> 8" (MFM) is normally 500K bits per second.
> 8" FM is 250K bits per second.
> Is the data transfer rate consistent with what you are trying to read?
>
>
> Do you have a scratch disk that you can spare?
> Set up the code to FORMAT a track (eventually appropriate loops to format
> the whole disk).
> After formatting a track, and without doing any stepping to another track,
> try to read it.  FM/MFM and data transfer rates and even sector
> header (CHRN) should therefore be compatible.
> If you have another machine, try reading THAT track on the other machine
> and check what it sees.
>
>

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Nov 28 10:24:42 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 08:24:42 -0800
Subject: Intel 8272 based floppy controller & Missing Address Mark
In-Reply-To: <CAHV+QdnL2zyU8ZKdRNBQL-880O1FQXvoO3v0g228VanL7h16hA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <010301d5a5a6$cefcb600$6cf62200$@thewaffleiron.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911272146510.5783@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAHV+QdnL2zyU8ZKdRNBQL-880O1FQXvoO3v0g228VanL7h16hA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <581b86ec-34a7-6921-0f53-c98cf9ecb879@sydex.com>

On 11/28/19 7:06 AM, David Kuder via cctalk wrote:
> I've tried using the 8" drives as 8" drives with the clock input to the
> 8272 set correctly, and likewise with the 720KB 3.5" emulator (and even
> 360KB 5.25" emulation).  On physical and virtual disks I'm getting the same
> error trying to read or write data. Formatting steps through all the tracks
> without error, and I can see a write status indicator on the GoTek
> display...

You'd likely be better off with the 1.44MB or 1.2MB emulator, as 8"
disks used the 500KHz clock rate, not the 250KHz of the 360/730K.

FWIW,
CHuck


From mosst at SDF.ORG  Thu Nov 28 12:35:46 2019
From: mosst at SDF.ORG (Thomas Moss)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 18:35:46 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: TSS/8 on RK05
Message-ID: <alpine.NEB.2.21.1911281829180.5589@sdf.lonestar.org>

That's great Josh, I look forward to seeing it in action when I'm next at 
LCM+L!

I had been thinking of doing something similar myself, as I also have an 
8/e and RK05, but no RF08. Thanks for making the code available :)

Regards,
-Tom

mosst at sdf.lonestar.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Thu Nov 28 17:50:23 2019
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 15:50:23 -0800
Subject: PDP - 8 Front panels
In-Reply-To: <bb504e10-113d-8e34-8322-d8b178d97a15@btinternet.com>
References: <bb504e10-113d-8e34-8322-d8b178d97a15@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <8EC329E7-BC85-4DBB-80EF-2044A1BCA8FD@nf6x.net>



> On Nov 28, 2019, at 2:40 AM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Hello Everybody
> 
>  After a two year pause due to my wife having been ill but now fully recovered I am back to starting making pdp-8 front panels again

Welcome back!


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From dk at thewaffleiron.net  Thu Nov 28 23:34:20 2019
From: dk at thewaffleiron.net (David Kuder)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 00:34:20 -0500
Subject: Intel 8272 based floppy controller & Missing Address Mark
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911272146510.5783@shell.lmi.net>
References: <010301d5a5a6$cefcb600$6cf62200$@thewaffleiron.net>	<Pine.LNX.4.64.1911272146510.5783@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <001001d5a676$a71cec60$f556c520$@thewaffleiron.net>

After digging in the manual for the controller card, it appears they have set it up to only support single density FM formatting.  Even still, formatting the disk 568KB FM with either clock speed 8MHz or 4MHz (and 500KHz / 250KHz WCLK respectively), same outcome with missing address mark.  I think I?m going to scrap the floppy card and design a fresh one using the FDC37C78. Less things to go wrong.

 

-David

 

On Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 1:08 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org> > wrote:

I'll agree with Chuck, that FM/MFM seems a likely possibility.

index blindness can prevent seeing the first sector, but it should see 
other sectors.

What is on the disk that you are trying to read?


You are using an 8" drive, but you mention settings for 720K. 
720K (MFM) is normally 250K bts per second (300 K at 360 RPM in a 1.2M)
8" (MFM) is normally 500K bits per second.
8" FM is 250K bits per second. 
Is the data transfer rate consistent with what you are trying to read?


Do you have a scratch disk that you can spare?
Set up the code to FORMAT a track (eventually appropriate loops to format 
the whole disk).
After formatting a track, and without doing any stepping to another track, 
try to read it.  FM/MFM and data transfer rates and even sector 
header (CHRN) should therefore be compatible.
If you have another machine, try reading THAT track on the other machine 
and check what it sees.


From kevin.bowling at kev009.com  Thu Nov 28 23:45:30 2019
From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 22:45:30 -0700
Subject: IBM SP/SP2 9076
Message-ID: <CAK7dMtATLYRhrF4HVTTxR9odfXD0dMZLAknZw-oaAgUBuFApiQ@mail.gmail.com>

Anyone have one of these collecting dust?

Regards,
Kevin

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Nov 29 00:07:57 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 22:07:57 -0800
Subject: Intel 8272 based floppy controller & Missing Address Mark
In-Reply-To: <001001d5a676$a71cec60$f556c520$@thewaffleiron.net>
References: <010301d5a5a6$cefcb600$6cf62200$@thewaffleiron.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911272146510.5783@shell.lmi.net>
 <001001d5a676$a71cec60$f556c520$@thewaffleiron.net>
Message-ID: <50d49f77-5167-7e75-0351-69b5c5c341bd@sydex.com>

On 11/28/19 9:34 PM, David Kuder via cctalk wrote:
> After digging in the manual for the controller card, it appears they have set it up to only support single density FM formatting.  Even still, formatting the disk 568KB FM with either clock speed 8MHz or 4MHz (and 500KHz / 250KHz WCLK respectively), same outcome with missing address mark.  I think I?m going to scrap the floppy card and design a fresh one using the FDC37C78. Less things to go wrong.

Is there a manual for the card online?

If you're doing your own, I'd recommend a NSC DP8473--it has the benefit
of full FM and MFM support, including reading and writing 128 byte MFM
data.  Not even the NSCPC8477 can do that--and you can forget the Intel
chips like the 82077/78 for FM.

--Chuck

From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 29 07:05:35 2019
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 07:05:35 -0600
Subject: CRT faceplates / screen "mold"
Message-ID: <7666076c-5812-24c2-bf75-ea811d1313d3@gmail.com>


Many years ago I cut the faceplate off an HP display exhibiting serious 
decay of the sealant between the faceplate and the CRT itself, cleaned 
everything up, then reattached the plate just with a bead of sealant around 
the perimeter (where it wouldn't be seen once the bezel was back on).

Short of outright replacing the CRT with one of the same type, is that 
still accepted practice - or in the years since has someone worked out a 
way of applying new sealant across the entire face without getting air 
trapped in there, thereby maintaining the structural integrity of the original?

cheers

Jules


From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Fri Nov 29 08:29:45 2019
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 14:29:45 +0000
Subject: P118
Message-ID: <BYAPR20MB27575657A02B24B730DE94ACED460@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>


It's not really classic (although it does try to pretend to be :-)
but does anyone here do anything with the P118 SBC?  I am trying to
get 8" disks running on it but I am seeing some rather strange behavior.

bill

From Mark at Misty.com  Fri Nov 29 08:48:35 2019
From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G Thomas)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 09:48:35 -0500
Subject: P118
In-Reply-To: <BYAPR20MB27575657A02B24B730DE94ACED460@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
References: <BYAPR20MB27575657A02B24B730DE94ACED460@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <20191129144835.GA14561@allie.home.misty.com>

Hi Bill,

On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 02:29:45PM +0000, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> 
> It's not really classic (although it does try to pretend to be :-)
> but does anyone here do anything with the P118 SBC?  I am trying to
> get 8" disks running on it but I am seeing some rather strange behavior.

Do you mean the p112?

Mark

-- 
Mark G. Thomas <Mark at Misty.com>, KC3DRE

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Fri Nov 29 09:00:43 2019
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 15:00:43 +0000
Subject: P118
In-Reply-To: <20191129144835.GA14561@allie.home.misty.com>
References: <BYAPR20MB27575657A02B24B730DE94ACED460@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <20191129144835.GA14561@allie.home.misty.com>
Message-ID: <BYAPR20MB2757B266B1A61631F312BA80ED460@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>

On 11/29/19 9:48 AM, Mark G Thomas wrote:
> Hi Bill,
> 
> On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 02:29:45PM +0000, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>>
>> It's not really classic (although it does try to pretend to be :-)
>> but does anyone here do anything with the P118 SBC?  I am trying to
>> get 8" disks running on it but I am seeing some rather strange behavior.
> 
> Do you mean the p112?
> 

Yes, brain fart.  Probably ate too much turkey yesterday.

bill



From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com  Fri Nov 29 14:25:21 2019
From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 15:25:21 -0500
Subject: Compaq Floppy/Printer board?
Message-ID: <CAJ2mpAiSPTKvc-J_E2X5JdPDSbrSGmVTZj84wDeXhB2Tdk0c4Q@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all, I found this while throwing away e-waste at my old place:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/R8xUxYijf1AYHNB38

Is it of any use to anyone? Need to know by Sunday.

Thanks!

From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com  Fri Nov 29 14:28:04 2019
From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 15:28:04 -0500
Subject: Compaq Floppy/Printer board?
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2mpAiSPTKvc-J_E2X5JdPDSbrSGmVTZj84wDeXhB2Tdk0c4Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ2mpAiSPTKvc-J_E2X5JdPDSbrSGmVTZj84wDeXhB2Tdk0c4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ2mpAhfAdiEyDArM60z5_qUyYRiaO+AzOHyJTgx=6j1j7x+DA@mail.gmail.com>

Also what appears to be a quad serial board:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/21EvJcc7KwwDuS4t9

=]

On Fri, Nov 29, 2019, 3:25 PM Anders Nelson <anders.k.nelson at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi all, I found this while throwing away e-waste at my old place:
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/R8xUxYijf1AYHNB38
>
> Is it of any use to anyone? Need to know by Sunday.
>
> Thanks!
>

From grant at millhouseindustries.com  Fri Nov 29 14:02:50 2019
From: grant at millhouseindustries.com (Grant)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 12:02:50 -0800
Subject: Grid server software
Message-ID: <36C3517BEC9545AB802E6BF37B67AB5C@millhousePC>

I am looking for the  elusive grid server software disks, I would really like to put this thing online 
I know of the disks that were on the yahoo grid group, but they were missing the all important utilities disk 2 , but worse than that they are for a tempest server, which unfortunately won't run the communications card on a regular server.

I know there is a copy out there, as i watched the disks slip through my fingers a couple of yeas ago on ebay with a 2701 server drive.

The search continues........ 

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Fri Nov 29 16:36:45 2019
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 17:36:45 -0500
Subject: CRT faceplates / screen "mold"
In-Reply-To: <7666076c-5812-24c2-bf75-ea811d1313d3@gmail.com>
References: <7666076c-5812-24c2-bf75-ea811d1313d3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+dey=5A4URFvK_Ji=T2W=zG9t1SPa3kwYRJ2v=LYjdXYeA@mail.gmail.com>

> Short of outright replacing the CRT with one of the same type, is that
> still accepted practice - or in the years since has someone worked out a
> way of applying new sealant across the entire face without getting air
> trapped in there, thereby maintaining the structural integrity of the original?

The antique TV guys I know generally let the protective shield float
over the CRT with no sealant.  Generally they will just support (if
even needed) the shield with four dabs of silicone or even just four
little bits of double sided foam tape.

Those shields really are not needed, except to maintain "the look".
Large CRTs have had fantastically strong faces since mid World War 2.
Go find a weak ca. 1949 10BP4 (and that  is "pre-banding"!) and break
it - you will find out just how strong those faces are.

--
Will

From aperry at snowmoose.com  Fri Nov 29 16:59:47 2019
From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 14:59:47 -0800
Subject: Free: USENIX publications (Computing Systems and late 90s ;login:)
Message-ID: <171e1148-d0b0-c60e-9347-bfb30ab1fde6@snowmoose.com>


I am continuing to clean out stuff from my office and today's items are 
printed copies of the USENIX publications Computing Systems (early 90s) 
and ;login: (late 90s). The content is available online, but some people 
like the printed versions.

I prefer to send them all out in one lot rather than send them out 
one-at-a-time.

They are located in the Seattle area. As far as shipping, I think they 
would all fit in a large flat-rate priority mail box.

alan

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Fri Nov 29 17:31:12 2019
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 15:31:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Compaq Floppy/Printer board?
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2mpAhfAdiEyDArM60z5_qUyYRiaO+AzOHyJTgx=6j1j7x+DA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ2mpAiSPTKvc-J_E2X5JdPDSbrSGmVTZj84wDeXhB2Tdk0c4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ2mpAhfAdiEyDArM60z5_qUyYRiaO+AzOHyJTgx=6j1j7x+DA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1911291528390.28634@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>

On Fri, 29 Nov 2019, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote:

> Also what appears to be a quad serial board:
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/21EvJcc7KwwDuS4t9
>
It appears to have 384K of RAM, a battery backed clock/calendar, a serial 
port and a parallel port....so "quad" function. :)

Oh, looks to have a game port on it too.  Maybe made by Quadram?


g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri Nov 29 17:37:20 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 15:37:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Compaq Floppy/Printer board?
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2mpAhfAdiEyDArM60z5_qUyYRiaO+AzOHyJTgx=6j1j7x+DA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ2mpAiSPTKvc-J_E2X5JdPDSbrSGmVTZj84wDeXhB2Tdk0c4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ2mpAhfAdiEyDArM60z5_qUyYRiaO+AzOHyJTgx=6j1j7x+DA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911291506400.6010@shell.lmi.net>

On Fri, 29 Nov 2019, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote:
> Also what appears to be a quad serial board:
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/21EvJcc7KwwDuS4t9

NOT a "quad serial board", unless we equate brand name.

It is 384K RAM (what was needed to bring 256K up to the 640K maximum), 
SINGLE serial port, parallel port, joystick, and clock.  It was made by 
Quadram, launching their "Quadboard" product line.

Used to have a few, but it was easier to GOOGLE the info: 
http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/26768/Quadram-Quadboard/

http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/userdata/files/quadboard_operation_manual.pdf
has switch and jumper settings.  Download a copy and nail it to the board.
Software to set the clock should be somewhere on the web.  I don't think 
that ASTCLOCK is compatible.

Serial, parallel, joystick, and RAM are compatible with the IBM ones.

Quadram competed directly with AST in making multi-function boards for 
PC/XT.

After a while, they started including a disk with a RAMDISK program (like 
VDISK.SYS) and a print spooler.  They counted those as "functions" of the 
board, so that they could call a 5 function board "7 function", etc.
I think that AST did likewise.
"9 of the most-needed IBM PC functions"   count 'em


Quadram also eventually made the QUADLINK board.  It was a complete 
Apple2 on an ISA board, letting you have an Apple in your PC.  The 
Quadlink had some serious QC problems.  The college bought a LOT of them, 
because some non-computer departments insisted that Apple2 was the only 
kind of computer that they could use.  At least a third of them were DOA. 
Some had connectors wired backwards, so that thekeyed cables could not 
have been used, and had NOT been tested before shipment.  When the DOA 
boards were sent back for replacement, half the replacements (which "have 
each been individually tested") were also DOA, including some with 
connectors wrong, so that they could NOT have been "individually tested".
"Diamond Trakstar 128" was a competing product that was briefly sold 
through Radio Shack.
Other than the Quadlink, the other Quadram boards tended to be decent 
quality.


And, NO, thank you, I don't have any use for one.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Fri Nov 29 18:01:33 2019
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 00:01:33 +0000
Subject: P112
Message-ID: <BYAPR20MB2757AD93D714BE78831CD43EED410@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>


Let's try again with the right name in the Subject line!

It's not really classic (although it does try to pretend to be
but does anyone here do anything with the P112 SBC?  I am trying to
get 8" disks running on it but I am seeing some rather strange behavior.

bill

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri Nov 29 18:03:16 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 16:03:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Compaq Floppy/Printer board?
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2mpAiSPTKvc-J_E2X5JdPDSbrSGmVTZj84wDeXhB2Tdk0c4Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ2mpAiSPTKvc-J_E2X5JdPDSbrSGmVTZj84wDeXhB2Tdk0c4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911291540500.6010@shell.lmi.net>

On Fri, 29 Nov 2019, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote:
> Hi all, I found this while throwing away e-waste at my old place:
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/R8xUxYijf1AYHNB38
> Is it of any use to anyone? Need to know by Sunday.

One of the early Compaq ones.  360K.  Although while that board was 
current, the PC-DOS format was 160K, followed by 320K.  You can do 720K, 
of course.
TWO drives.    I thought that I remembered a version of it with a DC37 for 
external drives, but I might have put in a 5150 board for that.

Has a real NEC 765 chip.  It is unlikely to be able to do FM nor 128 byte 
per sector MFM, and has a nice long blind spot after indes pulse (making 
some complications with reading the first sector of track of some formats)


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri Nov 29 18:33:35 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 16:33:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Compaq Floppy/Printer board?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911291506400.6010@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CAJ2mpAiSPTKvc-J_E2X5JdPDSbrSGmVTZj84wDeXhB2Tdk0c4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJ2mpAhfAdiEyDArM60z5_qUyYRiaO+AzOHyJTgx=6j1j7x+DA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911291506400.6010@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911291620170.6010@shell.lmi.net>

http://minuszerodegrees.net/rtc/rtc.htm
The Quadram SETCLOCK.COM should be included in the Quadmaster software.
The rest of the QM package is ramdisk, print spooler, etc.


SETCLOCK
in Autoexec.bat should fetch the time for the computer.

SETCLOCK MM-DD-YY HH:MM
should set the clock.

Notice the lack of acknowledgement of Y2K in the 1980s.



From silent700 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 29 20:58:44 2019
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 20:58:44 -0600
Subject: Free: USENIX publications (Computing Systems and late 90s ;
 login:)
In-Reply-To: <171e1148-d0b0-c60e-9347-bfb30ab1fde6@snowmoose.com>
References: <171e1148-d0b0-c60e-9347-bfb30ab1fde6@snowmoose.com>
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SEMvQYfDJqV+tJKT=ZieRC6X2F=kGZFsdMf7dQezZmtrw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 29, 2019, 16:59 Alan Perry via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

>
> and ;login: (late 90s). The content is available online, but some people
> like the printed versions.
>


Is this known for sure?  Good scans?

From aperry at snowmoose.com  Sat Nov 30 00:40:24 2019
From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 22:40:24 -0800
Subject: Free: USENIX publications (Computing Systems and late 90s ;login:)
In-Reply-To: <171e1148-d0b0-c60e-9347-bfb30ab1fde6@snowmoose.com>
References: <171e1148-d0b0-c60e-9347-bfb30ab1fde6@snowmoose.com>
Message-ID: <705fb679-53a8-826d-6859-aac44d107b82@snowmoose.com>



On 11/29/19 2:59 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote:
> 
> I am continuing to clean out stuff from my office and today's items are 
> printed copies of the USENIX publications Computing Systems (early 90s) 
> and ;login: (late 90s). The content is available online, but some people 
> like the printed versions.

Someone asked me about the online versions. If you are interested in 
them, they can be found at:

https://www.usenix.org/legacy/publications/compsystems/compsystems.html

and

https://www.usenix.org/publications/login/

One thing that I have not found online is an image for an audio CD that 
accompanied one of the issues of Computing Systems. I think it is audio.

alan




From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com  Sat Nov 30 03:43:30 2019
From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 20:43:30 +1100
Subject: Free: USENIX publications (Computing Systems and late 90s ;
 login:)
In-Reply-To: <705fb679-53a8-826d-6859-aac44d107b82@snowmoose.com>
References: <171e1148-d0b0-c60e-9347-bfb30ab1fde6@snowmoose.com>
 <705fb679-53a8-826d-6859-aac44d107b82@snowmoose.com>
Message-ID: <CACCFpdwDteD_yxTz073yx7NzcCJH-8WyBp=DB+zpw5u6hvabuQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 30, 2019 at 5:40 PM Alan Perry via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> https://www.usenix.org/publications/login/

This links to archive.org that has login; back to Volume 8 (1983), but
I don't see prior volumes.

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Sat Nov 30 07:31:11 2019
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 13:31:11 +0000
Subject: Free: USENIX publications (Computing Systems and late 90s ;login:)
In-Reply-To: <705fb679-53a8-826d-6859-aac44d107b82@snowmoose.com>
References: <171e1148-d0b0-c60e-9347-bfb30ab1fde6@snowmoose.com>
 <705fb679-53a8-826d-6859-aac44d107b82@snowmoose.com>
Message-ID: <BYAPR20MB27574C1E0D2F2BF44C1B70C4ED410@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>

On 11/30/19 1:40 AM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
> On 11/29/19 2:59 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote:
>>
>> I am continuing to clean out stuff from my office and today's items 
>> are printed copies of the USENIX publications Computing Systems (early 
>> 90s) and ;login: (late 90s). The content is available online, but some 
>> people like the printed versions.
> 
> Someone asked me about the online versions. If you are interested in 
> them, they can be found at:
> 
> https://www.usenix.org/legacy/publications/compsystems/compsystems.html
> 
> and
> 
> https://www.usenix.org/publications/login/
> 
> One thing that I have not found online is an image for an audio CD that 
> accompanied one of the issues of Computing Systems. I think it is audio.
> 

It is.  And I have a copy here somewhere.  Given permission I could
probably make an ISO for archiving purposes.

bill



From emu at e-bbes.com  Sat Nov 30 08:15:56 2019
From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 09:15:56 -0500
Subject: P112
In-Reply-To: <BYAPR20MB2757AD93D714BE78831CD43EED410@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
References: <BYAPR20MB2757AD93D714BE78831CD43EED410@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <c05bccaa-fe4b-eeb6-d0cc-c14d1c1aef98@e-bbes.com>

On 2019-11-29 19:01, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> 
> Let's try again with the right name in the Subject line!
> 
> It's not really classic (although it does try to pretend to be
> but does anyone here do anything with the P112 SBC?  I am trying to
> get 8" disks running on it but I am seeing some rather strange behavior.

You should probably describe the "strange behavior". There is a chance,
it isn't a P112 problem?

From aperry at snowmoose.com  Sat Nov 30 08:42:10 2019
From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 06:42:10 -0800
Subject: Free: USENIX publications (Computing Systems and late 90s ;
 login:)
In-Reply-To: <CACCFpdwDteD_yxTz073yx7NzcCJH-8WyBp=DB+zpw5u6hvabuQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <171e1148-d0b0-c60e-9347-bfb30ab1fde6@snowmoose.com>
 <705fb679-53a8-826d-6859-aac44d107b82@snowmoose.com>
 <CACCFpdwDteD_yxTz073yx7NzcCJH-8WyBp=DB+zpw5u6hvabuQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e6a04088-f7ae-27bc-4568-22d57feda0b5@snowmoose.com>



On 11/30/19 1:43 AM, Nigel Williams via cctalk wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 30, 2019 at 5:40 PM Alan Perry via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> https://www.usenix.org/publications/login/
> 
> This links to archive.org that has login; back to Volume 8 (1983), but
> I don't see prior volumes.
> 

It has all of the ones that I have print copies of.


From aek at bitsavers.org  Sat Nov 30 09:45:25 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 07:45:25 -0800
Subject: Free: USENIX publications (Computing Systems and late 90s ;
 login:)
In-Reply-To: <CACCFpdwDteD_yxTz073yx7NzcCJH-8WyBp=DB+zpw5u6hvabuQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <171e1148-d0b0-c60e-9347-bfb30ab1fde6@snowmoose.com>
 <705fb679-53a8-826d-6859-aac44d107b82@snowmoose.com>
 <CACCFpdwDteD_yxTz073yx7NzcCJH-8WyBp=DB+zpw5u6hvabuQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c0e624a8-4117-e84f-f4df-6a415c22569c@bitsavers.org>

Usenix wasn't good at archiving.
I was told they were given a set of early conference proceedings and tossed them.

Would be good for people to keep an eye out for them.

We don't have a complete set either
https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102713986

On 11/30/19 1:43 AM, Nigel Williams via cctalk wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 30, 2019 at 5:40 PM Alan Perry via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> https://www.usenix.org/publications/login/


From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Sat Nov 30 11:22:51 2019
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 17:22:51 +0000
Subject: P112
In-Reply-To: <c05bccaa-fe4b-eeb6-d0cc-c14d1c1aef98@e-bbes.com>
References: <BYAPR20MB2757AD93D714BE78831CD43EED410@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <c05bccaa-fe4b-eeb6-d0cc-c14d1c1aef98@e-bbes.com>
Message-ID: <BYAPR20MB275726157B2345311DC5E4D5ED410@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>

On 11/30/19 9:15 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote:
> On 2019-11-29 19:01, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>>
>> Let's try again with the right name in the Subject line!
>>
>> It's not really classic (although it does try to pretend to be
>> but does anyone here do anything with the P112 SBC?  I am trying to
>> get 8" disks running on it but I am seeing some rather strange behavior.
> 
> You should probably describe the "strange behavior". There is a chance,
> it isn't a P112 problem?
> 

I was waiting to see if there were any P112 users first,

I'll start with the simple and funny one.  If i run FORMAT
it formats all 80 tracks.  :-)  Seems like the definition
for an 8" disk as selected in the config menu is just plain
wrong.  Of course, once it formats all 80 :-) tracks any
attempt to access it, like a DIR, just returns "sector not
found".

bill


From alan at alanlee.org  Sat Nov 30 17:38:26 2019
From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 18:38:26 -0500
Subject: System/36 Twin-Ax decode help
Message-ID: <af2989b712c742dc0ac9178ccd74a449@alanlee.org>

All, 

I've recently scratched a curiosity itch on what it would take to build
a multi-port Twin-Ax to WiFi bridge.  The electrical interface is easy
enough and ESP32s are cheap.  So I built a bridge PCB-to-FPGA adapter
and connected my System/36 (5362), an InfoWindow II (address 0 and 1),
and my board during IPL and sign-on to see what I could sniff.  The
result is here: 

https://www.retrotronics.org/tmp/s36_ipl_twinax_decode_30nov19.zip 

I get occasional decode errors called out with 'BAD FRAME'.  The [SPF]
next to bytes mean bad start bit (0), parity error, or non-zero fill
bytes respectively.  And I occasionally get a sync pattern followed by
either illegal Manchester transitions or return to idle without any
bytes (and thus no address) - the zero frames in the log. 

My main question is I need help on the next step.  For a brief moment, I
was under the impression SNA LU6 or LU7 ran on top of the Twin-Ax line
layer.  But that doesn't appear to be the case.  I'm not sure it's
direct 5250 either.  Can anyone familiar with IBM-Midrange-World take a
look at the decode and point me to the next protocol layer up the stack?
 Even the slightest breadcrumbs would be appreciated as I know very
little about the Midrange world. 

Additionally if anyone is familiar with the wire-level and could assist
on some of the framing errors, that would help as well.  The twin-ax
cables are less than 2m each so the line should be 100% clean.  The
problems are likely something I am doing wrong in the interpreter. 

Thanks, 

-Alan Hightower

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sat Nov 30 18:16:01 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 16:16:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: P112
In-Reply-To: <BYAPR20MB275726157B2345311DC5E4D5ED410@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
References: <BYAPR20MB2757AD93D714BE78831CD43EED410@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <c05bccaa-fe4b-eeb6-d0cc-c14d1c1aef98@e-bbes.com>
 <BYAPR20MB275726157B2345311DC5E4D5ED410@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911301602570.24777@shell.lmi.net>

On Sat, 30 Nov 2019, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> I'll start with the simple and funny one.  If i run FORMAT
> it formats all 80 tracks.  :-)  Seems like the definition
> for an 8" disk as selected in the config menu is just plain
> wrong.  Of course, once it formats all 80 :-) tracks any
> attempt to access it, like a DIR, just returns "sector not
> found".

A lot could depend on how the software is interpreting the FDC return 
codes.

In the case of PC BIOS (765), error code number 4) that would mean that it 
did format; it sees sectors, but not the one that you asked for.
That may be that the format command setup and the read are in 
disagreement on sector numbers, and/or sector size.

It could also happen if it ended up on the wrong track.  (then the C field 
of the CHRN of the sector doesn't match the C field of the CHRN requested)
Even a non-functional stepper could do that.  Be well aware thet "VERIFY" 
checks whether there are READABLE sectors, not whether they have correct 
content.  If you want RELIABLE code, include a READ after WRITE, rather 
than rely on the FDC "VERIFY".
A non-functional WRITE (including FORMAT) will VERIFY just fine, but leave 
behind whatever had been on the track before, rather than what you though 
that you had put there.

PC FDC returns error code 2 for not seeing address mark.  However, MS-DOS 
goes through a short list of codes that it knows, and then falls through 
to "error, but none of the above" and says "General Failure" (I can't help 
but think that that was one of the brass in VietNam)

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Sat Nov 30 18:37:34 2019
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 00:37:34 +0000
Subject: P112
In-Reply-To: <BYAPR20MB275726157B2345311DC5E4D5ED410@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
References: <BYAPR20MB2757AD93D714BE78831CD43EED410@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <c05bccaa-fe4b-eeb6-d0cc-c14d1c1aef98@e-bbes.com>,
 <BYAPR20MB275726157B2345311DC5E4D5ED410@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <BYAPR01MB560890F1F950B5F7547B69F7A3410@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>

Don't 8 inch drives have 77 tracks?
Dwight

________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2019 9:22 AM
To: emanuel stiebler <emu at e-bbes.com>; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: P112

On 11/30/19 9:15 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote:
> On 2019-11-29 19:01, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>>
>> Let's try again with the right name in the Subject line!
>>
>> It's not really classic (although it does try to pretend to be
>> but does anyone here do anything with the P112 SBC?  I am trying to
>> get 8" disks running on it but I am seeing some rather strange behavior.
>
> You should probably describe the "strange behavior". There is a chance,
> it isn't a P112 problem?
>

I was waiting to see if there were any P112 users first,

I'll start with the simple and funny one.  If i run FORMAT
it formats all 80 tracks.  :-)  Seems like the definition
for an 8" disk as selected in the config menu is just plain
wrong.  Of course, once it formats all 80 :-) tracks any
attempt to access it, like a DIR, just returns "sector not
found".

bill


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sat Nov 30 18:54:30 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 16:54:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: P112
In-Reply-To: <BYAPR01MB560890F1F950B5F7547B69F7A3410@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <BYAPR20MB2757AD93D714BE78831CD43EED410@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <c05bccaa-fe4b-eeb6-d0cc-c14d1c1aef98@e-bbes.com>,
 <BYAPR20MB275726157B2345311DC5E4D5ED410@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <BYAPR01MB560890F1F950B5F7547B69F7A3410@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911301649200.24777@shell.lmi.net>

On Sun, 1 Dec 2019, dwight via cctalk wrote:
> Don't 8 inch drives have 77 tracks?

YES.

Although 8" "emulation" sometimes cheats and uses 80.
And some users with drives without a physical stop tried to squeeze a few 
more tracks  (and 41,42 on 360K)
The inability to read those "extra" tracks on a different drive didn't 
show up until the disk was nearly full (inner tracks are normally last 
allocated)

SA400 was 35 track (TRS80, and SA390 Apple)
Q: how many tracks are the HP formats?

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Sat Nov 30 19:17:01 2019
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 01:17:01 +0000
Subject: P112
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911301602570.24777@shell.lmi.net>
References: <BYAPR20MB2757AD93D714BE78831CD43EED410@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <c05bccaa-fe4b-eeb6-d0cc-c14d1c1aef98@e-bbes.com>
 <BYAPR20MB275726157B2345311DC5E4D5ED410@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911301602570.24777@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <BYAPR20MB2757F930D8F5372312F31244ED400@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>

On 11/30/19 7:16 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Nov 2019, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>> I'll start with the simple and funny one.? If i run FORMAT
>> it formats all 80 tracks.? :-)? Seems like the definition
>> for an 8" disk as selected in the config menu is just plain
>> wrong.? Of course, once it formats all 80 :-) tracks any
>> attempt to access it, like a DIR, just returns "sector not
>> found".
> 
> A lot could depend on how the software is interpreting the FDC return 
> codes.
> 
> In the case of PC BIOS (765), error code number 4) that would mean that 
> it did format; it sees sectors, but not the one that you asked for.
> That may be that the format command setup and the read are in 
> disagreement on sector numbers, and/or sector size.
> 
> It could also happen if it ended up on the wrong track.? (then the C 
> field of the CHRN of the sector doesn't match the C field of the CHRN 
> requested)
> Even a non-functional stepper could do that.? Be well aware thet 
> "VERIFY" checks whether there are READABLE sectors, not whether they 
> have correct content.? If you want RELIABLE code, include a READ after 
> WRITE, rather than rely on the FDC "VERIFY".
> A non-functional WRITE (including FORMAT) will VERIFY just fine, but 
> leave behind whatever had been on the track before, rather than what you 
> though that you had put there.
> 
> PC FDC returns error code 2 for not seeing address mark.? However, 
> MS-DOS goes through a short list of codes that it knows, and then falls 
> through to "error, but none of the above" and says "General Failure" (I 
> can't help but think that that was one of the brass in VietNam)

I think you missed something.  This is a P112 SBC not a PC.  I watch
the head step from track to track until it runs into the stop after
passing the last real track.  I have a dbit 8" adapter and it displays
the track count and I watch it go from 0 to 79.  I am assuming the
problem is that wherever the disk parameters are being stored on the
P112 they are wrong for 8" disks.

bill


From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Sat Nov 30 19:18:59 2019
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 01:18:59 +0000
Subject: P112
In-Reply-To: <BYAPR01MB560890F1F950B5F7547B69F7A3410@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <BYAPR20MB2757AD93D714BE78831CD43EED410@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <c05bccaa-fe4b-eeb6-d0cc-c14d1c1aef98@e-bbes.com>
 <BYAPR20MB275726157B2345311DC5E4D5ED410@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <BYAPR01MB560890F1F950B5F7547B69F7A3410@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <BYAPR20MB27570DFA6F077742A4B0D70AED400@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>

On 11/30/19 7:37 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote:
> Don't 8 inch drives have 77 tracks?

Give that man a cigar.  Apparently the P112 doesn't know the
format of 8" disks even though it has an option to set a drive
as 8" in the config.

bill


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sat Nov 30 19:28:27 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 17:28:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: P112
In-Reply-To: <BYAPR20MB2757F930D8F5372312F31244ED400@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
References: <BYAPR20MB2757AD93D714BE78831CD43EED410@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <c05bccaa-fe4b-eeb6-d0cc-c14d1c1aef98@e-bbes.com>
 <BYAPR20MB275726157B2345311DC5E4D5ED410@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911301602570.24777@shell.lmi.net>
 <BYAPR20MB2757F930D8F5372312F31244ED400@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911301718311.24777@shell.lmi.net>

>> A lot could depend on how the software is interpreting the FDC return
>> codes.
>>
>> In the case of PC BIOS (765), error code number 4) that would mean that

On Sun, 1 Dec 2019, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> I think you missed something.  This is a P112 SBC not a PC.  I watch
> the head step from track to track until it runs into the stop after
> passing the last real track.  I have a dbit 8" adapter and it displays
> the track count and I watch it go from 0 to 79.  I am assuming the
> problem is that wherever the disk parameters are being stored on the
> P112 they are wrong for 8" disks.

That's exactly why I said that it depended on how the software interprets 
error codes, and used PC as an eaxample for comparison, not that it would 
necessarily be the same.
You are absolutely right that I don't know anything about P112 disk 
access.

You are right that the disk parameters are obviously wrong for 8", if only 
the wrong track count.  I have seen THAT error before.
Are the OTHER parameters at least usable?

If it says "sector not found", then there is a possibility (LIKE the PC 
example that I used), that that may mean that it sees sectors, but not 
the right ones.  But, there is still the possibility that it is using 
that message for any and all disk errors.



BTW, I understand that NEC uses 77 tracks on their high density 5.25 and 
3.5 inch formats, and 360RPM for 3.5".   (Same parameters for all three 
sizes!)

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Sat Nov 30 19:41:53 2019
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 01:41:53 +0000
Subject: P112
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911301718311.24777@shell.lmi.net>
References: <BYAPR20MB2757AD93D714BE78831CD43EED410@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <c05bccaa-fe4b-eeb6-d0cc-c14d1c1aef98@e-bbes.com>
 <BYAPR20MB275726157B2345311DC5E4D5ED410@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911301602570.24777@shell.lmi.net>
 <BYAPR20MB2757F930D8F5372312F31244ED400@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911301718311.24777@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <BYAPR20MB2757FCCFE9DB763EBF9FA746ED400@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>

On 11/30/19 8:28 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>>> A lot could depend on how the software is interpreting the FDC return
>>> codes.
>>>
>>> In the case of PC BIOS (765), error code number 4) that would mean that
> 
> On Sun, 1 Dec 2019, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>> I think you missed something.? This is a P112 SBC not a PC.? I watch
>> the head step from track to track until it runs into the stop after
>> passing the last real track.? I have a dbit 8" adapter and it displays
>> the track count and I watch it go from 0 to 79.? I am assuming the
>> problem is that wherever the disk parameters are being stored on the
>> P112 they are wrong for 8" disks.
> 
> That's exactly why I said that it depended on how the software 
> interprets error codes, and used PC as an eaxample for comparison, not 
> that it would necessarily be the same.
> You are absolutely right that I don't know anything about P112 disk access.

I was hoping there would  be people here who did.  I have had these
SBC's for several years but have never even powered one up before.

> 
> You are right that the disk parameters are obviously wrong for 8", if 
> only the wrong track count.? I have seen THAT error before.
> Are the OTHER parameters at least usable?

I have no way of knowing.  My first test was to try formatting a disk
and then reading a (blank) directory.  But, as I said, while it says
the format was successful it can not read the disk.

> 
> If it says "sector not found", then there is a possibility (LIKE the PC 
> example that I used), that that may mean that it sees sectors, but not 
> the right ones.? But, there is still the possibility that it is using 
> that message for any and all disk errors.

Again this is why I need to find someone with experience with the P112.
I am beginning to suspect these were not as popular in reality as they
seemed to be on mailing lists.

> 
> 
> 
> BTW, I understand that NEC uses 77 tracks on their high density 5.25 and 
> 3.5 inch formats, and 360RPM for 3.5".?? (Same parameters for all three 
> sizes!)

Well, I haven't tried 5.25" but 3.5" disks format/read/write just fine.

bill



From ajkatx at gmail.com  Sat Nov 30 19:52:46 2019
From: ajkatx at gmail.com (Andrew Kay)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 19:52:46 -0600
Subject: System/36 Twin-Ax decode help
In-Reply-To: <af2989b712c742dc0ac9178ccd74a449@alanlee.org>
References: <af2989b712c742dc0ac9178ccd74a449@alanlee.org>
Message-ID: <CAGc_3Ry2X9wJqOHgC7em7=FYBy3yiLHQGXXJm3ON=0n0ZC9CTg@mail.gmail.com>

Alan,

You may have already read it but page 9 and 10 of the "MPA-II?A
Multi-ProtocolTerminal EmulationAdapter Using the DP8344" document may
be helpful.

It enumerates the 5250 commands but unfortunately doesn't list the
command values.

Also pages 47 and 48 of the "DP8344B Biphase Communications
Processor?BCP" datasheet may be helpful with regard the message
framing.

Let me know if you have trouble finding these documents - I believe I
found them on Bitsavers when I was looking into the 3270 protocol.


Andrew

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sat Nov 30 20:03:54 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 18:03:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: P112
In-Reply-To: <BYAPR20MB2757FCCFE9DB763EBF9FA746ED400@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
References: <BYAPR20MB2757AD93D714BE78831CD43EED410@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <c05bccaa-fe4b-eeb6-d0cc-c14d1c1aef98@e-bbes.com>
 <BYAPR20MB275726157B2345311DC5E4D5ED410@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911301602570.24777@shell.lmi.net>
 <BYAPR20MB2757F930D8F5372312F31244ED400@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911301718311.24777@shell.lmi.net>
 <BYAPR20MB2757FCCFE9DB763EBF9FA746ED400@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911301749260.24777@shell.lmi.net>

On Sun, 1 Dec 2019, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> Well, I haven't tried 5.25" but 3.5" disks format/read/write just fine.

That is a significant succesful test of MOST of the hardware.
(leaving drive, cabling, and software as the likely alternate culprits)

Speculating (with no knowledge of P112 (or P118 :-)) about the wrong 
parameters (even though 77 V 80 SEEMS minor), if the parameters are 
stored separately for FORMAT V READ/WRITE, that could obviously do it. 
If it were to have totally wrong parameters, and tried to put more 
sectors on a track than would fit, would it wrap around (past index) and 
overwrite the first sector with one of the later ones?


A couple of obvious other things to consider (that you probably 
have already considered) trying:
1) do you have some other machine with 8" capability to look at the disk 
that you formatted?

2) Do you get the same errors on a pre-formatted disk from something else?
(not necessarily much good as a test, because any format with different 
sector size or sector numbering would probably also give that error)

3) Perhaps tell it that the 3.5" drive is an 8", and see what it does
(300RPM V 360RPM shouldn't prevent that interchange in that direction, 
although "type 3" 3.5" drive (360RPM) would be ideal)

From rich.cini at verizon.net  Sat Nov 30 20:15:14 2019
From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2019 02:15:14 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: P112
In-Reply-To: <BYAPR20MB2757FCCFE9DB763EBF9FA746ED400@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
References: <BYAPR20MB2757AD93D714BE78831CD43EED410@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <c05bccaa-fe4b-eeb6-d0cc-c14d1c1aef98@e-bbes.com>
 <BYAPR20MB275726157B2345311DC5E4D5ED410@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911301602570.24777@shell.lmi.net>
 <BYAPR20MB2757F930D8F5372312F31244ED400@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911301718311.24777@shell.lmi.net>
 <BYAPR20MB2757FCCFE9DB763EBF9FA746ED400@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <DC5D576988FE52C0.377E42F5-89C9-4D26-8EDA-C9BAF6A0DC6E@mail.outlook.com>


  
  
  
    
    	The current P112 is a reissue from years ago, right? I remember I had one ? and I may still have it somewhere ? but I only used it with 3.5? drives. Somehow I think it was built that way by design (the board outline fit on a drive). 
I don?t know how available the code is, but I would look at the firmware on the board. To me it sounds like it has a bad drive definition. The 8272 is pretty easy to program for (I use it on my IMSAI). 
As an aside, I use a modified YD-380 (5.25? HD) drive to replace the 8? drives on my IMSAI so as a quick test you could use one of those. At least it can step to 80 tracks and has the same speed and bit rate. I have instructions on my site how to use it. 
Rich 
    	
    	

    	Get Outlook for iOS
    
  




On Sat, Nov 30, 2019 at 8:42 PM -0500, "Bill Gunshannon via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:










On 11/30/19 8:28 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>>> A lot could depend on how the software is interpreting the FDC return
>>> codes.
>>>
>>> In the case of PC BIOS (765), error code number 4) that would mean that
> 
> On Sun, 1 Dec 2019, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>> I think you missed something.? This is a P112 SBC not a PC.? I watch
>> the head step from track to track until it runs into the stop after
>> passing the last real track.? I have a dbit 8" adapter and it displays
>> the track count and I watch it go from 0 to 79.? I am assuming the
>> problem is that wherever the disk parameters are being stored on the
>> P112 they are wrong for 8" disks.
> 
> That's exactly why I said that it depended on how the software 
> interprets error codes, and used PC as an eaxample for comparison, not 
> that it would necessarily be the same.
> You are absolutely right that I don't know anything about P112 disk access.

I was hoping there would  be people here who did.  I have had these
SBC's for several years but have never even powered one up before.

> 
> You are right that the disk parameters are obviously wrong for 8", if 
> only the wrong track count.? I have seen THAT error before.
> Are the OTHER parameters at least usable?

I have no way of knowing.  My first test was to try formatting a disk
and then reading a (blank) directory.  But, as I said, while it says
the format was successful it can not read the disk.

> 
> If it says "sector not found", then there is a possibility (LIKE the PC 
> example that I used), that that may mean that it sees sectors, but not 
> the right ones.? But, there is still the possibility that it is using 
> that message for any and all disk errors.

Again this is why I need to find someone with experience with the P112.
I am beginning to suspect these were not as popular in reality as they
seemed to be on mailing lists.

> 
> 
> 
> BTW, I understand that NEC uses 77 tracks on their high density 5.25 and 
> 3.5 inch formats, and 360RPM for 3.5".?? (Same parameters for all three 
> sizes!)

Well, I haven't tried 5.25" but 3.5" disks format/read/write just fine.

bill








From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Sat Nov 30 20:34:20 2019
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 18:34:20 -0800
Subject: P112
In-Reply-To: <DC5D576988FE52C0.377E42F5-89C9-4D26-8EDA-C9BAF6A0DC6E@mail.outlook.com>
References: <BYAPR20MB2757AD93D714BE78831CD43EED410@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <c05bccaa-fe4b-eeb6-d0cc-c14d1c1aef98@e-bbes.com>
 <BYAPR20MB275726157B2345311DC5E4D5ED410@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911301602570.24777@shell.lmi.net>
 <BYAPR20MB2757F930D8F5372312F31244ED400@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911301718311.24777@shell.lmi.net>
 <BYAPR20MB2757FCCFE9DB763EBF9FA746ED400@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <DC5D576988FE52C0.377E42F5-89C9-4D26-8EDA-C9BAF6A0DC6E@mail.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <f2dd5d72-f2e0-a1bd-4279-b5bafde333af@jwsss.com>



On 11/30/2019 6:15 PM, Richard Cini via cctalk wrote:
>    
>    
>    
>      
>      	The current P112 is a reissue from years ago, right? I remember I had one ? and I may still have it somewhere ? but I only used it with 3.5? drives. Somehow I think it was built that way by design (the board outline fit on a drive).
> I don?t know how available the code is, but I would look at the firmware on the board. To me it sounds like it has a bad drive definition. The 8272 is pretty easy to program for (I use it on my IMSAI).
> As an aside, I use a modified YD-380 (5.25? HD) drive to replace the 8? drives on my IMSAI so as a quick test you could use one of those. At least it can step to 80 tracks and has the same speed and bit rate. I have instructions on my site how to use it.
> Rich
>
I have a archive and a board which I bought with the TCP option, as well 
as CF adapter, etc.

I can share it if it's not available online

Here is the contents I have.

-rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 915852 Sep? 9? 2000 bootdisk.img.gz
drwxrwxrwx+ 1 1003 nogroup??? 270 Oct? 9? 2014 daveb
drwxrwxrwx+ 1?? 98????? 98??? 674 Apr? 9? 2018 downloads-stack180
drwxrwxrwx+ 1?? 98????? 98??? 274 Apr? 9? 2018 gide
drwxrwxrwx+ 1?? 98????? 98??? 954 Apr? 9? 2018 hal-bower
drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup??? 574 Oct? 9? 2014 p112
drwxrwxrwx+ 1?? 98????? 98??? 552 Apr? 9? 2018 p112-2018
-rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 331632 Sep 19? 2014 p112-doc.pdf
-rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup? 14305 Sep? 9? 2000 rawrite.exe
-rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 357891 Oct 22? 2005 sc102205.img.gz
-rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 445535 Nov 11? 2005 sc111105.img.gz
-rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 436332 Nov 30? 2005 sc113005.img.gz
drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup?? 3660 Oct? 9? 2014 tcj-archive
drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup??? 268 Oct? 9? 2014 web
-rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 660331 Oct 17? 2005 zs101805.img.gz
-rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 513625 Oct 21? 2005 zs102205.img.gz
-rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 612086 Nov 11? 2005 zs111105.img.gz
-rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 552969 Nov 30? 2005 zs113005.img.gz
drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup??? 260 Oct? 9? 2014 zsdos
-rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 554479 Apr 22? 2009 zsdos.pdf


From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Sat Nov 30 20:40:50 2019
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 18:40:50 -0800
Subject: P112
In-Reply-To: <BYAPR20MB2757AD93D714BE78831CD43EED410@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
References: <BYAPR20MB2757AD93D714BE78831CD43EED410@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <6e733028-4d29-06dd-6128-23fad7f67306@jwsss.com>



On 11/29/2019 4:01 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> Let's try again with the right name in the Subject line!
>
> It's not really classic (although it does try to pretend to be
> but does anyone here do anything with the P112 SBC?  I am trying to
> get 8" disks running on it but I am seeing some rather strange behavior.
>
> bill
I found a couple of links to the site I bought my system from:

https://661.org/p112/

https://661.org/p112/files/p112-doc.pdf

http://stack180.com/

Original source

http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/p112/p112.html

Figured it would be useful to have some links when people stumble by 
this thread in a few years.? Hopefully in that case all are in 
archive.org with info stored.
Thanks
Jim


From imp at bsdimp.com  Sat Nov 30 20:51:25 2019
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 19:51:25 -0700
Subject: PC 9821 hardware
Message-ID: <CANCZdfqJHeUnMSG+9hyPS_0Skkt2y-4=P4PnSwkQHgmqmiqmXA@mail.gmail.com>

Greetings

I think the time has come for me to part with my collection of PC 9821
hardware. It has deteriorated over time, but I think it all still works. I
have two laptops and a desktop system. I used it to test FreeBSD/pc98 for
years, but support was dropped a few years ago and I have no further need
for it. It's a bit oddball for here, perhaps, but I don't want to just
scrap it all... Anybody interested?

Warner

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Sat Nov 30 21:08:56 2019
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 22:08:56 -0500
Subject: P112
In-Reply-To: <f2dd5d72-f2e0-a1bd-4279-b5bafde333af@jwsss.com>
References: <BYAPR20MB2757AD93D714BE78831CD43EED410@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <c05bccaa-fe4b-eeb6-d0cc-c14d1c1aef98@e-bbes.com>
 <BYAPR20MB275726157B2345311DC5E4D5ED410@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911301602570.24777@shell.lmi.net>
 <BYAPR20MB2757F930D8F5372312F31244ED400@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911301718311.24777@shell.lmi.net>
 <BYAPR20MB2757FCCFE9DB763EBF9FA746ED400@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <DC5D576988FE52C0.377E42F5-89C9-4D26-8EDA-C9BAF6A0DC6E@mail.outlook.com>
 <f2dd5d72-f2e0-a1bd-4279-b5bafde333af@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBufCSEwr7oi+cP74W8a9+pTkPSCSG1WGNoOtU+rQqWqFfg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 30, 2019, 9:34 PM jim stephens via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

>
>
> On 11/30/2019 6:15 PM, Richard Cini via cctalk wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >       The current P112 is a reissue from years ago, right? I remember I
> had one ? and I may still have it somewhere ? but I only used it with 3.5?
> drives. Somehow I think it was built that way by design (the board outline
> fit on a drive).
> > I don?t know how available the code is, but I would look at the firmware
> on the board. To me it sounds like it has a bad drive definition. The 8272
> is pretty easy to program for (I use it on my IMSAI).
> > As an aside, I use a modified YD-380 (5.25? HD) drive to replace the 8?
> drives on my IMSAI so as a quick test you could use one of those. At least
> it can step to 80 tracks and has the same speed and bit rate. I have
> instructions on my site how to use it.
> > Rich
> >
> I have a archive and a board which I bought with the TCP option, as well
> as CF adapter, etc.
>
> I can share it if it's not available online
>
> Here is the contents I have.
>
> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 915852 Sep  9  2000 bootdisk.img.gz
> drwxrwxrwx+ 1 1003 nogroup    270 Oct  9  2014 daveb
> drwxrwxrwx+ 1   98      98    674 Apr  9  2018 downloads-stack180
> drwxrwxrwx+ 1   98      98    274 Apr  9  2018 gide
> drwxrwxrwx+ 1   98      98    954 Apr  9  2018 hal-bower
> drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup    574 Oct  9  2014 p112
> drwxrwxrwx+ 1   98      98    552 Apr  9  2018 p112-2018
> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 331632 Sep 19  2014 p112-doc.pdf
> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup  14305 Sep  9  2000 rawrite.exe
> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 357891 Oct 22  2005 sc102205.img.gz
> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 445535 Nov 11  2005 sc111105.img.gz
> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 436332 Nov 30  2005 sc113005.img.gz
> drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup   3660 Oct  9  2014 tcj-archive
> drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup    268 Oct  9  2014 web
> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 660331 Oct 17  2005 zs101805.img.gz
> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 513625 Oct 21  2005 zs102205.img.gz
> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 612086 Nov 11  2005 zs111105.img.gz
> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 552969 Nov 30  2005 zs113005.img.gz
> drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup    260 Oct  9  2014 zsdos
> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 554479 Apr 22  2009 zsdos.pdf
>

Today at our workshop meeting we got one of these up and running.  We have
worshops in Kennett Square monthly if you're in the Philadelphia area.  I
can put you in touch with the owner off line if you'd like.
Bill

>

From alan at alanlee.org  Sat Nov 30 22:59:14 2019
From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 23:59:14 -0500
Subject: System/36 Twin-Ax decode help
In-Reply-To: <af2989b712c742dc0ac9178ccd74a449@alanlee.org>
References: <af2989b712c742dc0ac9178ccd74a449@alanlee.org>
Message-ID: <36aa7a0b6b593846c4e7442b27e19d8f@alanlee.org>


 From some slef-progress and a few replies.. an update.

I've managed to figure out the rough framing of the TwinAx messages from 
primarily this document:

http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/ibm/5250_5251/SY31-0461-0_5251_Display_Station_Model_11_Maintenance_Information_Dec77.pdf

...where it talks about the commands and modifier bits.  However I'm 
missing a detailed command reference that covers basic stuff; for 
example the argument format to the SET MODE command, etc.  But it was 
enough to update the decoded output with tons more detail - here:

https://www.retrotronics.org/tmp/s36_ipl_twinax_decode_31nov19.zip

I 'think' this is enough to respin my break-out with a iCE40 and a ESP32 
for a true wireless interface.  I have a line-driver chip that is still 
coming in from Digikey this week that will let me try and talk to a 
InfoWindow II terminal as if I'm a midrange host - validating all my 
transmit logic.  Then I might put this project on the shelf for a while 
unless I can find more docs that explains the command further.

-Alan H

On 2019-11-30 18:38, alan--- via cctalk wrote:
> All,
> 
> I've recently scratched a curiosity itch on what it would take to build
> a multi-port Twin-Ax to WiFi bridge.

From dittman at dittman.net  Sat Nov 30 23:45:36 2019
From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 23:45:36 -0600
Subject: P112
In-Reply-To: <f2dd5d72-f2e0-a1bd-4279-b5bafde333af@jwsss.com>
References: <BYAPR20MB2757AD93D714BE78831CD43EED410@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <c05bccaa-fe4b-eeb6-d0cc-c14d1c1aef98@e-bbes.com>
 <BYAPR20MB275726157B2345311DC5E4D5ED410@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911301602570.24777@shell.lmi.net>
 <BYAPR20MB2757F930D8F5372312F31244ED400@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1911301718311.24777@shell.lmi.net>
 <BYAPR20MB2757FCCFE9DB763EBF9FA746ED400@BYAPR20MB2757.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <DC5D576988FE52C0.377E42F5-89C9-4D26-8EDA-C9BAF6A0DC6E@mail.outlook.com>
 <f2dd5d72-f2e0-a1bd-4279-b5bafde333af@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <71ac7d62-7b2d-f9af-cd33-ab1e323e019c@dittman.net>

On 11/30/2019 8:34 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
> On 11/30/2019 6:15 PM, Richard Cini via cctalk wrote:
>> ???????? The current P112 is a reissue from years ago, right? I 
>> remember I had one ? and I may still have it somewhere ? but I only 
>> used it with 3.5? drives. Somehow I think it was built that way by 
>> design (the board outline fit on a drive).
>> I don?t know how available the code is, but I would look at the 
>> firmware on the board. To me it sounds like it has a bad drive 
>> definition. The 8272 is pretty easy to program for (I use it on my 
>> IMSAI).
>> As an aside, I use a modified YD-380 (5.25? HD) drive to replace the 
>> 8? drives on my IMSAI so as a quick test you could use one of those. 
>> At least it can step to 80 tracks and has the same speed and bit rate. 
>> I have instructions on my site how to use it.
>> Rich
>>
> I have a archive and a board which I bought with the TCP option, as well 
> as CF adapter, etc.
> 
> I can share it if it's not available online
> 
> Here is the contents I have.
> 
> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 915852 Sep? 9? 2000 bootdisk.img.gz
> drwxrwxrwx+ 1 1003 nogroup??? 270 Oct? 9? 2014 daveb
> drwxrwxrwx+ 1?? 98????? 98??? 674 Apr? 9? 2018 downloads-stack180
> drwxrwxrwx+ 1?? 98????? 98??? 274 Apr? 9? 2018 gide
> drwxrwxrwx+ 1?? 98????? 98??? 954 Apr? 9? 2018 hal-bower
> drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup??? 574 Oct? 9? 2014 p112
> drwxrwxrwx+ 1?? 98????? 98??? 552 Apr? 9? 2018 p112-2018
> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 331632 Sep 19? 2014 p112-doc.pdf
> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup? 14305 Sep? 9? 2000 rawrite.exe
> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 357891 Oct 22? 2005 sc102205.img.gz
> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 445535 Nov 11? 2005 sc111105.img.gz
> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 436332 Nov 30? 2005 sc113005.img.gz
> drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup?? 3660 Oct? 9? 2014 tcj-archive
> drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup??? 268 Oct? 9? 2014 web
> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 660331 Oct 17? 2005 zs101805.img.gz
> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 513625 Oct 21? 2005 zs102205.img.gz
> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 612086 Nov 11? 2005 zs111105.img.gz
> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 552969 Nov 30? 2005 zs113005.img.gz
> drwxr-xr-x+ 1 1003 nogroup??? 260 Oct? 9? 2014 zsdos
> -rw-r--r--+ 1 1003 nogroup 554479 Apr 22? 2009 zsdos.pdf

What's in the p112-2018 directory?