From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Wed May  1 02:00:21 2019
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 01:00:21 -0600
Subject: Raspberry Pi for vaxen turbochannel
In-Reply-To: <e6a3ac98-b085-2044-abe7-7c7cb7abfc9c@bitsavers.org>
References: <Pine.NEB.4.64.1904302123310.672@hlin.zia.io>
 <e6a3ac98-b085-2044-abe7-7c7cb7abfc9c@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <c8fb69be-35bd-a706-d479-6d6ed7f025bf@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 4/30/2019 5:51 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> 
>>> It occurs to me that the turbochannel slots have 4A each. It would be entirely possible
>>> to put a board like the raspberry Pi on a turbochannel card
> When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
> 
But you can't beat the Z80 door stop computers with the clicket 
keyboards, to hammer on.
:)


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Wed May  1 02:03:04 2019
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 08:03:04 +0100
Subject: Raspberry Pi for vaxen turbochannel
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.1904302123310.672@hlin.zia.io>
References: <Pine.NEB.4.64.1904302123310.672@hlin.zia.io>
Message-ID: <184601d4ffeb$ed12b290$c73817b0$@gmail.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of John Klos via
> cctalk
> Sent: 30 April 2019 22:55
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Raspberry Pi for vaxen turbochannel
> 
> > It occurs to me that the turbochannel slots have 4A each. It would be
> > entirely possible to print a whole open source board like the
> > raspberry Pi (or banana Pi, etc) on a turbochannel card and kill two
> > birds with one stone.
> 
> I'n not quite sure why people are so interested in killing birds with
stones,
> but perhaps that's a discussion for another time :)
> 
> I've thought about doing something similar. I use my Raspberry Pis / small
> computers to do more than just MOP boot, serve NFS, and perhaps NAT or
> route to the Internet:
> 
> https://hackaday.io/project/218-speed-up-pkgsrc-on-retrocomputers
> (it does need to be updated a little)
> 
> It's not entirely clear whether you're talking about making a board that a
Pi
> (whether Raspberry, Banana, or other compatible) can just plug in, or if
> you're talking about making a full TURBOchannel board that has a Pi on the
> board itself ("print a whole open source board"). If the full board, then
it
> would make a lot more sense if it was interfaced directly to TURBOchannel
> and could present itself as various devices such as mass storage, ethernet
> and GPIO. Otherwise, why bother with the complexity?
> 
> My VAXstation 4000/90 has a TURBOchannel adapter. It was not easy to find,
> nor was it cheap. I'm currently using it for a TC-USB card:
> 
> https://web.archive.org/web/20170831062121/http://www.flxd.de/tc-usb/
> 
> So a Pi on a TURBOchannel card wouldn't be useful for any of my other
> VAXstation 4000/60 machines (nor VLC).
> 
> Otherwise, it would make a lot more sense to instead mount a Pi in a 3.5"
> drive's space and use a Molex drive power connector to power it. One can
> even get fancy and get a 12 volt to 5 volt regulator to power the Pi.
> 
> I looked in to the idea of using an ESP8266 in place of the AUI to give
older
> machines wireless, but it seems this is hardly trivial:
> 
> https://hackaday.com/2015/06/12/retro-edition-the-lan-before-time/
> 
> That also dissuaded me from imagining something that could plug in to the
> AUI port and interface with a Pi or other SBC. The same goes for a modern,
> inexpenive, small way to interface an SBC with the 10BASE2 ports on older
> machines.
> 
> So I can't picture any better way to get ethernet from the back of the
> machine to a Pi / SBC, internal or otherwise, without an AUI and ethernet
> cable. How were you thinking of doing that?



Most machines have AUI and AUI to UTP adaptors are widely available. E.g.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/273768394217

(yes I know that one is from China)

That's what I tend to use on my Vax..

> 
> John


From aek at bitsavers.org  Wed May  1 12:08:24 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 10:08:24 -0700
Subject: Tek 4010 emulator
Message-ID: <04e64c8a-8e30-6b07-b213-0fcf3441cd97@bitsavers.org>

for people not following alt.sys.pdp11

https://alt.sys.pdp11.narkive.com/k2ZKIuuw/pdp-11-programs-for-tektronix-4010-4014-terminal

https://github.com/rricharz/Tek4010



From emu at e-bbes.com  Wed May  1 13:13:24 2019
From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 14:13:24 -0400
Subject: Tek 4010 emulator
In-Reply-To: <04e64c8a-8e30-6b07-b213-0fcf3441cd97@bitsavers.org>
References: <04e64c8a-8e30-6b07-b213-0fcf3441cd97@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <5b49f0dd-e079-553d-0285-888dc1e73e89@e-bbes.com>

On 2019-05-01 13:08, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> for people not following alt.sys.pdp11
> https://alt.sys.pdp11.narkive.com/k2ZKIuuw/pdp-11-programs-for-tektronix-4010-4014-terminal
> https://github.com/rricharz/Tek4010

Great, now I need an rPi after all ;-)

From couryhouse at aol.com  Wed May  1 13:40:23 2019
From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE)
Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 18:40:23 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Q Bus front panel
References: <528359010.2980981.1556736023155.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <528359010.2980981.1556736023155@mail.yahoo.com>

THAT IS? NEAT? AL NEVER? SAW THIS? BEFORE....THERE? WAS ALSO A? ?CHASSIS? THAT? DEC MADE? SORT? OF A LAB? COMPUTER TYPE OF THING THAT HAD? A? SWITCH AND LIGHT? FRONT PANEL AT ONE? TIME? FOR Q BUS???

I SEEM TO REMEMBER A? BROCHURE? ?ON IT ... AND IT IS? HERE.... SOMEWHERE.
ED#
In a message dated 4/29/2019 6:27:23 PM US Mountain Standard Time, aek at bitsavers.orgwrites:
I thought about it.. but..https://www.ebay.com/itm/133019966845

From a.carlini at ntlworld.com  Wed May  1 14:54:41 2019
From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini)
Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 20:54:41 +0100
Subject: Greetings
In-Reply-To: <B3E58076-EE58-4CA5-A7F1-574CFEB17F39@kerberos.davies.net.au>
References: <CAMFEAABeBiL_aD8iUXA2psLz1v9aqOdetN3-u0rkGHp2tAO_nQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <67ff4fb5-7a62-0835-07a4-2cbe0626d565@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAMFEAAA=dcmc=GGnr0GcTr7RN8x8RX08EJQ6M+4oYfMTbudwqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <11961447-0d79-55c6-d1a1-e6373749fdd3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <f64b6f76-01a2-3aa5-aeda-5e62162cf81a@gmail.com>
 <B3E58076-EE58-4CA5-A7F1-574CFEB17F39@kerberos.davies.net.au>
Message-ID: <7121bc19-a2b2-3491-201c-43b8cdeb14ad@ntlworld.com>

On 30/04/2019 10:25, Huw Davies via cctalk wrote:

> I know later 780s (probably with an upgraded memory controller) supported 64MB of memory.
>
> I have used VMS 1.6 and started managing VMS systems around the 2.4 timeframe.
>
> I haven?t looked but does the simh 11/780 also provide PDP-11 compatibility mode? You used to run a very large amount of -11 code in VMS 1.x..


I may have missed some of the thread, so this might be old news ...


The VAX-11/780 was followed by the VAX-11/750 and that needed (iirc) VMS 
V2.0.


The VAX-11/730 was next and that needed VMS V3.0.


Then (I think) came the VAX 8600 and that needed VMS V4.0. That (I 
think, but I can't find anything to support this right now ...) is when 
the last of the PDP-11 compatibility code was finally removed.


So I think that to use anything pre-V4.0 you need compatibility mode 
support in SIMH. But that seems to be there.


I've not used anything older than V3.x ... I remember command line 
recall arriving, so I expect that happened in V4.0.


I would expect V1.x to feel distinctly clunky in comparison ... to V4.x 
and later.


Still a fun exercise though I would think.


Antonio


-- 
Antonio Carlini
antonio at acarlini.com


From silent700 at gmail.com  Wed May  1 15:10:48 2019
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 15:10:48 -0500
Subject: VCF Southeast Photos
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SGPcPXubpBYZSzF4D10Qfp8dbPFpDJqffT9xAkYGb9Y3w@mail.gmail.com>

Last weekend I made an unannounced visit out to Roswell, GA to visit
our brothers-and-sisters-in-hoarding at the Vintage Computer Festival
Southeast.  They were hosted by the new location of the Computer
Museum of America, not yet open to the public.  The show was a solid
representation of the hobby, with a wide range of micros, minis and
workstations as well as a few calculators and computing ephemera.  On
the museum side, I've never seen so many Crays in once place - and
they're not even done yet!

Here is my photo set:  https://photos.app.goo.gl/aiKGadREX511xeUt5
(contains computers, computer collectors and one giant rabbit)

Big thanks to Earl and the gang for putting on another great VCF and
showing me that southern hospitality.

More VCF Midwest news coming soon!

-j

From derek.newland at gmail.com  Wed May  1 15:57:11 2019
From: derek.newland at gmail.com (Derek Newland)
Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 16:57:11 -0400
Subject: VCF Southeast Photos
In-Reply-To: <CAEfH1SGPcPXubpBYZSzF4D10Qfp8dbPFpDJqffT9xAkYGb9Y3w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEfH1SGPcPXubpBYZSzF4D10Qfp8dbPFpDJqffT9xAkYGb9Y3w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+erfDn2FORU=nT-nMFBtnSfrKK3oU0w_r5CfZFFMoKTpFTpcg@mail.gmail.com>

Cute bunny rabbit!!!

On Wed, May 1, 2019 at 4:11 PM Jason T via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> Last weekend I made an unannounced visit out to Roswell, GA to visit
> our brothers-and-sisters-in-hoarding at the Vintage Computer Festival
> Southeast.  They were hosted by the new location of the Computer
> Museum of America, not yet open to the public.  The show was a solid
> representation of the hobby, with a wide range of micros, minis and
> workstations as well as a few calculators and computing ephemera.  On
> the museum side, I've never seen so many Crays in once place - and
> they're not even done yet!
>
> Here is my photo set:  https://photos.app.goo.gl/aiKGadREX511xeUt5
> (contains computers, computer collectors and one giant rabbit)
>
> Big thanks to Earl and the gang for putting on another great VCF and
> showing me that southern hospitality.
>
> More VCF Midwest news coming soon!
>
> -j
>


-- 
*Derek Newland* | (828) 234-4731 | derek.newland at gmail.com

From cctalk at ibm51xx.net  Wed May  1 16:10:41 2019
From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali)
Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 14:10:41 -0700
Subject: VCF Southeast Photos
In-Reply-To: <CAEfH1SGPcPXubpBYZSzF4D10Qfp8dbPFpDJqffT9xAkYGb9Y3w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEfH1SGPcPXubpBYZSzF4D10Qfp8dbPFpDJqffT9xAkYGb9Y3w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <015901d50062$56137b50$023a71f0$@net>

> Here is my photo set:  https://photos.app.goo.gl/aiKGadREX511xeUt5
> (contains computers, computer collectors and one giant rabbit)

What is that wonderfully evil looking computer halfway down the pictures with all the red blinkin LEDs? That would make a wonderful centerpiece to an evil lair!

I am guessing a Cray XMP of some sorts but that is just a wild guess....

-Ali

p.s. Wonderful pics! Next time in Atlanta will hopefully be after the opening and I can visit...


From drb at msu.edu  Wed May  1 16:15:40 2019
From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone)
Date: Wed, 01 May 2019 17:15:40 -0400
Subject: VCF Southeast Photos
In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 01 May 2019 14:10:41 -0700.)
 <015901d50062$56137b50$023a71f0$@net>
References: <015901d50062$56137b50$023a71f0$@net>
 <CAEfH1SGPcPXubpBYZSzF4D10Qfp8dbPFpDJqffT9xAkYGb9Y3w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190501211540.C6D1B1C6AB6@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>

 > What is that wonderfully evil looking computer halfway down the
 > pictures with all the red blinkin LEDs? That would make a wonderful
 > centerpiece to an evil lair!

I didn't realize they had a Connection Machine.  And apparently it at
least powers up?  Neat!

De

From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com  Wed May  1 16:20:32 2019
From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham)
Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 22:20:32 +0100
Subject: VCF Southeast Photos
In-Reply-To: <CAEfH1SGPcPXubpBYZSzF4D10Qfp8dbPFpDJqffT9xAkYGb9Y3w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEfH1SGPcPXubpBYZSzF4D10Qfp8dbPFpDJqffT9xAkYGb9Y3w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <60B5F96D-00DA-4E67-B894-E6D3A874756B@gmail.com>


> On 1 May 2019, at 21:10, Jason T via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Last weekend I made an unannounced visit out to Roswell, GA to visit
> our brothers-and-sisters-in-hoarding at the Vintage Computer Festival
> Southeast.  They were hosted by the new location of the Computer
> Museum of America, not yet open to the public.  The show was a solid
> representation of the hobby, with a wide range of micros, minis and
> workstations as well as a few calculators and computing ephemera.  On
> the museum side, I've never seen so many Crays in once place - and
> they're not even done yet!
> 
> Here is my photo set:  https://photos.app.goo.gl/aiKGadREX511xeUt5
> (contains computers, computer collectors and one giant rabbit)
> 
> Big thanks to Earl and the gang for putting on another great VCF and
> showing me that southern hospitality.


Oh wow, a Thinking Machines CM-3 running?! That plus the PDP-12/PDP-15, aw man. Excellent set of pics Jason, cheers!

-- 
adrian/witchy
Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection?
t: @binarydinosaurs    f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs
w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk





From cctalk at ibm51xx.net  Wed May  1 16:20:51 2019
From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali)
Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 14:20:51 -0700
Subject: VCF Southeast Photos
In-Reply-To: <20190501211540.C6D1B1C6AB6@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
References: <015901d50062$56137b50$023a71f0$@net>
 <CAEfH1SGPcPXubpBYZSzF4D10Qfp8dbPFpDJqffT9xAkYGb9Y3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190501211540.C6D1B1C6AB6@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <015a01d50063$c1ee7450$45cb5cf0$@net>

 
>  > What is that wonderfully evil looking computer halfway down the
>  > pictures with all the red blinkin LEDs? That would make a wonderful
>  > centerpiece to an evil lair!
> 
> I didn't realize they had a Connection Machine.  And apparently it at
> least powers up?  Neat!


Ah so that is what it is... Anyone have a working one for trade? LOL! Or
should I say Muhahaha?

-Ali


From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us  Wed May  1 16:37:27 2019
From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen)
Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 17:37:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: VCF Southeast Photos
In-Reply-To: <60B5F96D-00DA-4E67-B894-E6D3A874756B@gmail.com>
References: <CAEfH1SGPcPXubpBYZSzF4D10Qfp8dbPFpDJqffT9xAkYGb9Y3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <60B5F96D-00DA-4E67-B894-E6D3A874756B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.21.1905011729580.45930@cpumagic.137clearview.org>

> On 1 May 2019, at 21:10, Jason T via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Last weekend I made an unannounced visit out to Roswell, GA to visit
> our brothers-and-sisters-in-hoarding at the Vintage Computer Festival
> Southeast.  They were hosted by the new location of the Computer
> Museum of America, not yet open to the public.  The show was a solid
> representation of the hobby, with a wide range of micros, minis and
> workstations as well as a few calculators and computing ephemera.  On
> the museum side, I've never seen so many Crays in once place - and
> they're not even done yet!

    If you haven't visited Dave McGuire's Large Scale Systems Museum in New 
Kensington PA yet, it's well worth a stop.  Not QUITE as many Crays, but a 
host (pun intended) of DEC, IBM, Sun, SGI, HP and other big iron, many of 
which are in operating condition.  Plus, a second floor of microcomputers, and 
a third floor of workstations coming soon.

https://www.facebook.com/lssmuseum/


Mike Loewen				mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology				http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/

From alan at alanlee.org  Wed May  1 16:42:25 2019
From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org)
Date: Wed, 01 May 2019 17:42:25 -0400
Subject: VCF Southeast Photos
In-Reply-To: <60B5F96D-00DA-4E67-B894-E6D3A874756B@gmail.com>
References: <CAEfH1SGPcPXubpBYZSzF4D10Qfp8dbPFpDJqffT9xAkYGb9Y3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <60B5F96D-00DA-4E67-B894-E6D3A874756B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <dff4a073d3f182d683777e169367ab0c@alanlee.org>


It's a CM-2.  The problem with most CM-2s - aside not working in 2019 - 
is most were never fully populated with card cages in all 8 hyper-cubes. 
  That particular machine only has card cages in 2 of the hyper-cubes.  
The other 6 are empty.  I'm not sure a machine with max 64K processors 
was ever actually sold to a real customer.

The CM-2 in the photo has faux LED panels installed with LEDs spacing 
that exactly matches the real CPU card stacks.  Each of the 4096 LEDs 
are individually PWM'd and addressable.  The blinky pattern is generated 
by a ESP32 which can also be WiFi and BT controlled.  Only pulls about 
100 Watts with that pattern running.

The machine in the original Jurassic Park was a 're-arranged' CM-5.

-Alan

On 2019-05-01 17:20, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote:
> 
> Oh wow, a Thinking Machines CM-3 running?! That plus the
> PDP-12/PDP-15, aw man. Excellent set of pics Jason, cheers!

From alan at alanlee.org  Wed May  1 16:46:27 2019
From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org)
Date: Wed, 01 May 2019 17:46:27 -0400
Subject: VCF Southeast Photos
In-Reply-To: <CAEfH1SGPcPXubpBYZSzF4D10Qfp8dbPFpDJqffT9xAkYGb9Y3w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEfH1SGPcPXubpBYZSzF4D10Qfp8dbPFpDJqffT9xAkYGb9Y3w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <58330f7162a6c4eb4f0c7583dba1d113@alanlee.org>


Few more photos here:

https://www.atlhcs.org/photos-from-vintage-computer-festival-southeast-7-0/

-Alan

On 2019-05-01 16:10, Jason T via cctalk wrote:
> Last weekend I made an unannounced visit out to Roswell, GA to visit
> our brothers-and-sisters-in-hoarding at the Vintage Computer Festival
> Southeast.

From spacewar at gmail.com  Wed May  1 16:47:36 2019
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 15:47:36 -0600
Subject: Greetings
In-Reply-To: <7121bc19-a2b2-3491-201c-43b8cdeb14ad@ntlworld.com>
References: <CAMFEAABeBiL_aD8iUXA2psLz1v9aqOdetN3-u0rkGHp2tAO_nQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <67ff4fb5-7a62-0835-07a4-2cbe0626d565@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAMFEAAA=dcmc=GGnr0GcTr7RN8x8RX08EJQ6M+4oYfMTbudwqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <11961447-0d79-55c6-d1a1-e6373749fdd3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <f64b6f76-01a2-3aa5-aeda-5e62162cf81a@gmail.com>
 <B3E58076-EE58-4CA5-A7F1-574CFEB17F39@kerberos.davies.net.au>
 <7121bc19-a2b2-3491-201c-43b8cdeb14ad@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTTy3A8et-Dnwm+aPtP_DAFM0ER+AS7DcNKaw26+tVGqYQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 1, 2019 at 1:54 PM Antonio Carlini via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Then (I think) came the VAX 8600 and that needed VMS V4.0. That (I
> think, but I can't find anything to support this right now ...) is when
> the last of the PDP-11 compatibility code was finally removed.
>

The VAX 8600 and 8650 were the last VAX models to have PDP-11 compatibility
mode, so if the purpose of VMS 4.0 was to support the 8600, I would expect
it to still contain compatibility mode support. VMS versions at least as
late as 5.2 still supported the 8600. I don't have firsthand experience, as
the only 8600 I used ran BSD.

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Wed May  1 16:56:35 2019
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 17:56:35 -0400
Subject: VCF Southeast Photos
In-Reply-To: <dff4a073d3f182d683777e169367ab0c@alanlee.org>
References: <CAEfH1SGPcPXubpBYZSzF4D10Qfp8dbPFpDJqffT9xAkYGb9Y3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <60B5F96D-00DA-4E67-B894-E6D3A874756B@gmail.com>
 <dff4a073d3f182d683777e169367ab0c@alanlee.org>
Message-ID: <CANij+de9pAZZ4kJjci-roYNQmRtBqSSHEAh7WZwJRjwH6WFtOQ@mail.gmail.com>

> It's a CM-2.  The problem with most CM-2s - aside not working in 2019 -
> is most were never fully populated with card cages in all 8 hyper-cubes.

Most were 16K machines, I think.

> The CM-2 in the photo has faux LED panels installed with LEDs spacing
> that exactly matches the real CPU card stacks.  Each of the 4096 LEDs
> are individually PWM'd and addressable.  The blinky pattern is generated
> by a ESP32 which can also be WiFi and BT controlled.  Only pulls about
> 100 Watts with that pattern running.

CM-5 panels are their own things, and can be powered up without any
processors. They have a bunch of preset modes, two of which dance the
LEDs in a psuedorandom way to impress people when the machine is not
doing anything.

> The machine in the original Jurassic Park was a 're-arranged' CM-5.

It was not even a real machine! Just panels bolted onto unused frames
(no serial numbers), with some power supplies bolted inside. If you
look at the film closely, you will also see that the panels are a bit
"dim". Every other row or so was masked with black gaffers tape.
Apparently there is such a thing as too many blinkenlights.

One of the Jurassic Park CM-5 frames holds Dave Fischer's stuff at
cca.org. It used to be mine, but I had no use for the thing.

--
Will

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Wed May  1 16:59:59 2019
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 17:59:59 -0400
Subject: VCF Southeast Photos
In-Reply-To: <dff4a073d3f182d683777e169367ab0c@alanlee.org>
References: <CAEfH1SGPcPXubpBYZSzF4D10Qfp8dbPFpDJqffT9xAkYGb9Y3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <60B5F96D-00DA-4E67-B894-E6D3A874756B@gmail.com>
 <dff4a073d3f182d683777e169367ab0c@alanlee.org>
Message-ID: <CANij+df3yDJVnhabnOf7OcY_KdS6dc78JCGKMYEPfQC=v7GZRQ@mail.gmail.com>

> It's a CM-2.  The problem with most CM-2s...

Oh, I forgot - the problems with all CM-2s is that they are
fantastically useless machines. The SIMD hypercube architecture looked
good on paper...

--
Will

From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com  Wed May  1 17:18:41 2019
From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham)
Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 23:18:41 +0100
Subject: VCF Southeast Photos
In-Reply-To: <dff4a073d3f182d683777e169367ab0c@alanlee.org>
References: <CAEfH1SGPcPXubpBYZSzF4D10Qfp8dbPFpDJqffT9xAkYGb9Y3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <60B5F96D-00DA-4E67-B894-E6D3A874756B@gmail.com>
 <dff4a073d3f182d683777e169367ab0c@alanlee.org>
Message-ID: <7E0755DD-20EA-4807-A2DE-488260F27555@gmail.com>


> On 1 May 2019, at 22:42, alan--- via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> It's a CM-2.  The problem with most CM-2s - aside not working in 2019 - is most were never fully populated with card cages in all 8 hyper-cubes.  That particular machine only has card cages in 2 of the hyper-cubes.  The other 6 are empty.  I'm not sure a machine with max 64K processors was ever actually sold to a real customer.

Oh.

> The CM-2 in the photo has faux LED panels installed with LEDs spacing that exactly matches the real CPU card stacks.  Each of the 4096 LEDs are individually PWM'd and addressable.  The blinky pattern is generated by a ESP32 which can also be WiFi and BT controlled.  Only pulls about 100 Watts with that pattern running.


I suppose in this day and age that?s all I need to see since the machine itself would be, as William says, fantastically useless. I was definitely swooned by the marketing shots back in the day though.

-- 
adrian/witchy
Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection?
t: @binarydinosaurs    f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs
w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk





From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au  Wed May  1 17:20:42 2019
From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies)
Date: Thu, 02 May 2019 08:20:42 +1000
Subject: Greetings
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTTy3A8et-Dnwm+aPtP_DAFM0ER+AS7DcNKaw26+tVGqYQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMFEAABeBiL_aD8iUXA2psLz1v9aqOdetN3-u0rkGHp2tAO_nQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <67ff4fb5-7a62-0835-07a4-2cbe0626d565@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAMFEAAA=dcmc=GGnr0GcTr7RN8x8RX08EJQ6M+4oYfMTbudwqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <11961447-0d79-55c6-d1a1-e6373749fdd3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <f64b6f76-01a2-3aa5-aeda-5e62162cf81a@gmail.com>
 <B3E58076-EE58-4CA5-A7F1-574CFEB17F39@kerberos.davies.net.au>
 <7121bc19-a2b2-3491-201c-43b8cdeb14ad@ntlworld.com>
 <CAFrGgTTy3A8et-Dnwm+aPtP_DAFM0ER+AS7DcNKaw26+tVGqYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C94F22F-9790-430D-B045-B2E9E237D220@kerberos.davies.net.au>



> On 2 May 2019, at 07:47, Eric Smith via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> The VAX 8600 and 8650 were the last VAX models to have PDP-11 compatibility
> mode, so if the purpose of VMS 4.0 was to support the 8600, I would expect
> it to still contain compatibility mode support. VMS versions at least as
> late as 5.2 still supported the 8600. I don't have firsthand experience, as
> the only 8600 I used ran BSD.


I seem to recall that there was a software implementation of compatibility mode to allow PDP-11 code to be run on VAX hardware that didn?t have it natively.

At one stage I used to manage a very eclectic mix of VAX systems, including 11-780, 11-785, 8650, 8700, 8800, 8820, 8840, 6300, 6600, 7740.

Huw Davies           | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au
Melbourne            | "If soccer was meant to be played in the
Australia            | air, the sky would be painted green" 


From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Wed May  1 17:30:41 2019
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 17:30:41 -0500
Subject: Greetings
In-Reply-To: <7121bc19-a2b2-3491-201c-43b8cdeb14ad@ntlworld.com>
References: <CAMFEAABeBiL_aD8iUXA2psLz1v9aqOdetN3-u0rkGHp2tAO_nQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <67ff4fb5-7a62-0835-07a4-2cbe0626d565@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAMFEAAA=dcmc=GGnr0GcTr7RN8x8RX08EJQ6M+4oYfMTbudwqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <11961447-0d79-55c6-d1a1-e6373749fdd3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <f64b6f76-01a2-3aa5-aeda-5e62162cf81a@gmail.com>
 <B3E58076-EE58-4CA5-A7F1-574CFEB17F39@kerberos.davies.net.au>
 <7121bc19-a2b2-3491-201c-43b8cdeb14ad@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimm2fU4He2iUMtUhzDd-d3axa2V9uMjuH28t=S-8Tqv2gA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 1, 2019 at 2:54 PM Antonio Carlini via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> I may have missed some of the thread, so this might be old news ...

We've tossed around the facts from the edges but didn't list them one by one.

> So I think that to use anything pre-V4.0 you need compatibility mode
> support in SIMH. But that seems to be there.

I think that's true.  MicroVMS 4.0 runs on MicroVAXen, which don't
happen to have compatibility mode, so I think it's safe to say that it
was all worked out by then.  I'm pretty sure there was still some
PDP-11 code in the corners of late v3.x.

> I would expect V1.x to feel distinctly clunky in comparison ... to V4.x
> and later.

I would agree (I got started with V3.4 or so, so anything V2.0 or
older is going to feel strange to me, I'm sure).

> Still a fun exercise though I would think.

No doubt.  Definitely a learning experience.

I was just a user for V3.x, then became a System Manager with V4.x
(late 1985 or early 1986), then started doing device drivers in 1988
with the push to add SMP under V5.0, at first driver upgrades, then
later, drivers from scratch.  How many times a day can you crash a
VAX?  Lots.

-ethan

From aek at bitsavers.org  Wed May  1 18:11:53 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 16:11:53 -0700
Subject: Q Bus front panel
In-Reply-To: <0ae45f9e-2a4f-3262-73e6-180c06f14e47@bitsavers.org>
References: <0ae45f9e-2a4f-3262-73e6-180c06f14e47@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <e1039feb-94f6-413b-a7cf-38ac686c25db@bitsavers.org>

This guy seems to have gotten a bunch of stuff from someone making QBus stuff
probably MDB, Dilog, or someone else in SoCal

I did decide to get the Wilson Labs RL01 emulator he just listed.

The MDB chassis seem to have 11/23s and RLV21s in them.


On 4/29/19 6:27 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> I thought about it.. but..
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/133019966845
> 


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Wed May  1 18:42:37 2019
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 19:42:37 -0400
Subject: Greetings
In-Reply-To: <7121bc19-a2b2-3491-201c-43b8cdeb14ad@ntlworld.com>
References: <CAMFEAABeBiL_aD8iUXA2psLz1v9aqOdetN3-u0rkGHp2tAO_nQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <67ff4fb5-7a62-0835-07a4-2cbe0626d565@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAMFEAAA=dcmc=GGnr0GcTr7RN8x8RX08EJQ6M+4oYfMTbudwqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <11961447-0d79-55c6-d1a1-e6373749fdd3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <f64b6f76-01a2-3aa5-aeda-5e62162cf81a@gmail.com>
 <B3E58076-EE58-4CA5-A7F1-574CFEB17F39@kerberos.davies.net.au>
 <7121bc19-a2b2-3491-201c-43b8cdeb14ad@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <8835C611-5C46-4510-BF6D-B4B43BE95BB1@comcast.net>



> On May 1, 2019, at 3:54 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> ...
> I would expect V1.x to feel distinctly clunky in comparison ... to V4.x and later.
> 
> Still a fun exercise though I would think.

I would think so.  I was an occasional VMS user at DEC, and I somehow got myself a spot on an OS Internals course for VMS 1.5.  I wasn't in or near VMS at the time, I don't remember how that came to be.  It was interesting to learn how to add a syscall to the OS.

9.3 names back then, I'm pretty sure.  File system still in an ACP (separate process)?  DECnet Phase II ???

	paul



From w2hx at w2hx.com  Wed May  1 20:01:13 2019
From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2019 01:01:13 +0000
Subject: Fujitsi 2444AC 9-track tape drive/PDP-11
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwKJg6BVEDpqJfroKqU-0rqgifJk29PdS5mveuzNp=AdWA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4f1fc31d65a94f38a9bfee458f81a92f@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAM2UOwKJg6BVEDpqJfroKqU-0rqgifJk29PdS5mveuzNp=AdWA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <35f6d046002044278c3021672692ec08@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM>

I got a great pair of cables for this project.
50 conductor, 50 pin IDC, 10 feet long. 

http://w2hx.com/x/VintageComp/Fujitsu-2444AC/50pin-10feet.jpg

Cost was $35 all in for the pair of 10' cables. Not bad considering 50 pin ribbon isn't cheap plus connectors plus time. 
73 Eugene W2HX


-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick via cctalk
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2019 12:41 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Fujitsi 2444AC 9-track tape drive/PDP-11

On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 8:35 PM W2HX via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Now for some questions.
>
> 1.      I've been told the QT13 is a very good card to interface here. I've been looking for a while on ebay without luck. I do see a QT14 on ebay right now at a good price, but I am not familiar with the "S" card business and what that means for use in a PDP-11 backplane.
>
> 2.      Anyone have a QT13 for sale? Or based on my dec and unix interests, is there a better/recommended card?
>
> 3.      Anyone have the 50 pin cables/connectors available? If not I feel confident I could make these up. But I thought I'd ask in case someone has a set getting in their way
>

A Fujitsu M2444AC in new condition is a great tape drive if you want
to work with 9-track 1/2-inch tapes, and don't need 800BPI, and plan
to use it with a host with a Pertec interface, and have the space to
set it up and someone to help you move a 200 pound drive into place.
You have to manually thread the tape when you load it, but I actually
consider that a plus as it is one less thing to go wrong compared to
an auto loading tape drive.

I currently have a couple of them that I have used with Q-Bus systems.
I agree with the recommendation to use an Emulex QT13 interface. That
is what I have used in TMSCP mode to install 2.11BSD and RSTS/E 10.1
from tape on an 11/73 system. I also have one or more Dilog
DQ130/132/140/142 Pertec interfaces (I forget what the models are,
some don't have manuals on Bitsavers). Those aren't quite as friendly
to set up and use as the QT13.

I'd have to look and see how many QT13 cards I have. Probably more
than two for the two M2444AC drives I have. I just built cables
myself. I have a 3M Scotchflex 3640 press which makes it easy to press
the IDC connectors on to the cable. I bought a full 100-foot roll of
3M 1700/50 or 3365/50 cable for a reasonable price on eBay.

From drb at msu.edu  Wed May  1 20:58:46 2019
From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone)
Date: Wed, 01 May 2019 21:58:46 -0400
Subject: Fujitsi 2444AC 9-track tape drive/PDP-11
In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 02 May 2019 01:01:13 -0000.)
 <35f6d046002044278c3021672692ec08@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM>
References: <35f6d046002044278c3021672692ec08@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM>
 <4f1fc31d65a94f38a9bfee458f81a92f@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAM2UOwKJg6BVEDpqJfroKqU-0rqgifJk29PdS5mveuzNp=AdWA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190502015847.1AC8E1C6B92@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>

 > I got a great pair of cables for this project.  50 conductor, 50 pin
 > IDC, 10 feet long.

So the minicomputer vendors in the 80s typically used twisted pair
ribbon for these things, as in the 1700/50 stuff Glen was talking
about.  I don't know how long a cable would need to be for that to be
critical.

De

From w2hx at w2hx.com  Wed May  1 21:30:54 2019
From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2019 02:30:54 +0000
Subject: Fujitsi 2444AC 9-track tape drive/PDP-11
In-Reply-To: <20190502015847.1AC8E1C6B92@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
References: <35f6d046002044278c3021672692ec08@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM>
 <4f1fc31d65a94f38a9bfee458f81a92f@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAM2UOwKJg6BVEDpqJfroKqU-0rqgifJk29PdS5mveuzNp=AdWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190502015847.1AC8E1C6B92@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <c922b861b07f4f04a39c463e27d5a85c@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM>

Oh, oops. That went completely over my head. I missed that detail entirely. We'll keep our fingers crossed that this will work :(


73 Eugene W2HX


-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Boone via cctalk
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2019 9:59 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Fujitsi 2444AC 9-track tape drive/PDP-11

 > I got a great pair of cables for this project.  50 conductor, 50 pin
 > IDC, 10 feet long.

So the minicomputer vendors in the 80s typically used twisted pair
ribbon for these things, as in the 1700/50 stuff Glen was talking
about.  I don't know how long a cable would need to be for that to be
critical.

De

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Wed May  1 21:58:10 2019
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 22:58:10 -0400
Subject: Greetings
In-Reply-To: <8835C611-5C46-4510-BF6D-B4B43BE95BB1@comcast.net>
References: <CAMFEAABeBiL_aD8iUXA2psLz1v9aqOdetN3-u0rkGHp2tAO_nQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <67ff4fb5-7a62-0835-07a4-2cbe0626d565@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAMFEAAA=dcmc=GGnr0GcTr7RN8x8RX08EJQ6M+4oYfMTbudwqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <11961447-0d79-55c6-d1a1-e6373749fdd3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <f64b6f76-01a2-3aa5-aeda-5e62162cf81a@gmail.com>
 <B3E58076-EE58-4CA5-A7F1-574CFEB17F39@kerberos.davies.net.au>
 <7121bc19-a2b2-3491-201c-43b8cdeb14ad@ntlworld.com>
 <8835C611-5C46-4510-BF6D-B4B43BE95BB1@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAALmimnjjVZVxx1xogFS4cjFZ4Z6Y_g7G3czyarVF19eh0aOdg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 1, 2019 at 7:42 PM Paul Koning via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> > On May 1, 2019, at 3:54 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > I would expect V1.x to feel distinctly clunky in comparison ... to V4.x and later.
> >
> > Still a fun exercise though I would think.
>
> I would think so.  I was an occasional VMS user at DEC, and I somehow got myself a spot on an OS Internals course for VMS 1.5.  I wasn't in or near VMS at the time, I don't remember how that came to be.  It was interesting to learn how to add a syscall to the OS.
>
> 9.3 names back then, I'm pretty sure.  File system still in an ACP (separate process)?  DECnet Phase II ???

I think those were still true for V3.X.  I know we had a problem back
then with our backups where someone elevated the priority of the Tape
ACP over the Disk ACP (because it was faster) that left us with months
of corrupt backups.

-ethan

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed May  1 22:00:44 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 20:00:44 -0700
Subject: Fujitsi 2444AC 9-track tape drive/PDP-11
In-Reply-To: <20190502015847.1AC8E1C6B92@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
References: <35f6d046002044278c3021672692ec08@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM>
 <4f1fc31d65a94f38a9bfee458f81a92f@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAM2UOwKJg6BVEDpqJfroKqU-0rqgifJk29PdS5mveuzNp=AdWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190502015847.1AC8E1C6B92@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <86e1529b-e105-6710-0a63-732dec57fd8f@sydex.com>

On 5/1/19 6:58 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote:
>  > I got a great pair of cables for this project.  50 conductor, 50 pin
>  > IDC, 10 feet long.
> 
> So the minicomputer vendors in the 80s typically used twisted pair
> ribbon for these things, as in the 1700/50 stuff Glen was talking
> about.  I don't know how long a cable would need to be for that to be
> critical.

Yup--good old Spectra-Strip Twist 'N' Flat shown here:

http://www.spectra-strip.com/ecpartsearch3.cfm?partID=361&cfid=109257980&cftoken=e6f2501d4301db0d-A0328E4C-C60A-DD93-BF83E6D9C0B9DA8A

Expensive if purchased new stock, but since SS has gone through a couple
of corporate acquisitions, you can sometimes find it on the surplus
market under its old Eltra brand for considerable savings. Odd that
Eltra also once owned Converse shoes...

I"ve got a big spool of the stuff in my parts cabinet that will probably
outlast me.  Purchased surplus with the box water-damaged somewhat,
which didn't affect the spool inside.

The bigger problem is finding really decent IDC connectors--so much of
the stuff nowadays is of Chinese clone manufacture and not very good.
I'll go out of my way to pick up NOS T&B Ansley IDCs.

But plain old flat straight ribbon cable in a 10" length will do for the
2444; even at 6250, frequencies aren't much higher than 1MHz.

--Chuck



From ethan at 757.org  Thu May  2 00:05:58 2019
From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2019 01:05:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: VCF Southeast Photos
In-Reply-To: <CAEfH1SGPcPXubpBYZSzF4D10Qfp8dbPFpDJqffT9xAkYGb9Y3w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEfH1SGPcPXubpBYZSzF4D10Qfp8dbPFpDJqffT9xAkYGb9Y3w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1905020100120.10932@users.757.org>

> Last weekend I made an unannounced visit out to Roswell, GA to visit
> our brothers-and-sisters-in-hoarding at the Vintage Computer Festival
> Southeast.  They were hosted by the new location of the Computer
> Museum of America, not yet open to the public.  The show was a solid
> representation of the hobby, with a wide range of micros, minis and
> workstations as well as a few calculators and computing ephemera.  On
> the museum side, I've never seen so many Crays in once place - and
> they're not even done yet!

Wow! Now that is a museum -- holy crap. I've never seen so many Cray 
bits in one spot. Reminds me of a personal collection of a guy I chatted 
with some time ago.

Most impressive! And also, the Thinking Machines CM-2! Very few CM systems 
out there. It used to be on my list -- thank goodness I never got one 
after seeing the CM-5 at the NSA Cryptographic museum.

Very cool!


--
: Ethan O'Toole



From ethan at 757.org  Thu May  2 00:11:52 2019
From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2019 01:11:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: VCF Southeast Photos, Now Thinking Machines
In-Reply-To: <dff4a073d3f182d683777e169367ab0c@alanlee.org>
References: <CAEfH1SGPcPXubpBYZSzF4D10Qfp8dbPFpDJqffT9xAkYGb9Y3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <60B5F96D-00DA-4E67-B894-E6D3A874756B@gmail.com>
 <dff4a073d3f182d683777e169367ab0c@alanlee.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1905020108080.10932@users.757.org>

> It's a CM-2.  The problem with most CM-2s - aside not working in 2019 - is 
> most were never fully populated with card cages in all 8 hyper-cubes.  That 
> particular machine only has card cages in 2 of the hyper-cubes.  The other 6 
> are empty.  I'm not sure a machine with max 64K processors was ever actually 
> sold to a real customer.

Years ago in my SGI collecting days the Connection Machine 5 was high on 
my list. I never found one, and that seems good since the one at the NSA 
museum is huge. I don't even know if it would fit into a normal dock 
height Penske truck.

Any idea how many are out there in the collector sphere?

I know the NSA museum has CM-5
I know the Mountain View museum has a CM-2
Apparently the GA Museum has a CM-2

I saw a CM-5 system that ... was very small footprint on a work trip to a 
datacenter. It didn't have the LED panels visible through the front or 
anything, and it was pretty small. Like maybe just a fraction of a system 
in a box doing some processing. They talked as if it was running jobs of 
some sort but it might end up at auction (I didn't persue since it didn't 
really look like a CM2/CM5.)

I had a MASPAR MP-2 at one point but sold it to someone in Florida to free 
up some space.

Very cool to see some of these being preserved.

--
: Ethan O'Toole



From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org  Thu May  2 00:11:55 2019
From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2019 00:11:55 -0500
Subject: Modern Rack Rails in Classic Racks?
In-Reply-To: <FD70871B-BEF3-4C40-A3FF-1CE74D929F68@avanthar.com>
References: <20190429141830.1646D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <FD70871B-BEF3-4C40-A3FF-1CE74D929F68@avanthar.com>
Message-ID: <5ec447e7-2c6b-88fe-f385-2d50ecd95760@thereinhardts.org>

On 4/29/2019 12:19 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>
> My next question is, what options are there for putting a shelf in a standard rack?  My google-fu seems to be failing me.  I?ve I?m going to put any desktops in the rack, I?ll need a shelf or two, at a minimum.
>
> Zane
>
Moving from Ohio to Texas in 2017 I gave away two DEC tall racks (36U?).? Rebuilding here in my converted bedroom office I bought an open 4 post rack off Ebay that lists as 27U but has about 29U of usable space (see link at end of email).? The top was meant to be two thick caps tying the two sides together but I'm putting shelf on top for a Compaq TSZ08 reel to reel tape drive.? I've found that rack shelves are an expensive thing.? My main rack was "only" $200 and most shelves were around $100 each.? Then I found this one at Amazon: <https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06Y3LZVL8/>? for around $45.? It's solid and sturdy. The shelf itself is 26" deep and the supports are adjustable for racks of different depths.?? It's fixed and doesn't slide, however.?? It may be what you're looking for.? I haven't found anything better for less.? It's made by the same company that made my rack and now I see I could have gotten it cheaper ($6) from Ebay! Doh! 
<https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rack-Server-Vented-Shelf-19-Rack-Mount-1U-Adjustable-from-27-31-Shelves/162159828843>


If you're also looking for something to use to mount your Proliant (If you don't have the HP rails) then these are good:

Full Length adjustable Rack Rails: <https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01C4TDF0G>

Partial Length adjustable Rack Rails: <https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00XXDLHDA>

They com in single, two and four packs with slight savings the more you buy.? Because of the adjustable nature, they do have some screws which impinge on the roughly 17.5" between the rack rails. I have a few things that fit rather tightly against them but they do flex a bit which allows the item to fit.

I can't run everything at once (I could, I have two 30 circuits feeding them but not for long as the heat...), but I have everything there to boot up when I need them.


In my rack I have (from top down):

 ? Compaq TZ08 Tape drive (on open shelf at the top level)

 ? A partial Length rack rail with a Lantronix ETS16PR terminal server

 ? 2U allocated to a 12" deep Cantilever Server Vented Shelve with an Edgerouter Lite Firewall/router and a Raspberry Pi 3 DNS/DHCP/NTP server

 ? An HPE Aruba 2920-48G 48-port 10/100/1000 switch with 4 10GBE SFP+ ports

 ? A Raritan Paragon II KVM switch

 ? HP MSL2024 Tape Library with two LTO4 SCSI tape drives

 ? PDP-11/53 system in a BA23 chassis

 ? Compaq Network Storage Router M2402 for FC to SCSI bridging

 ? HP Storageworks 8/24 SAN switch

 ? HP P2000 G3 MSA Storage Controller with 12 2TB 3.5" SATA drives

 ? HP D2700 storage shelf with 252.5"? SAS drives

 ? HP C3000 Bladeserver Chassis with one BL460c Proliant blade for VMWare hosting and two BL860c I2 Itanium for OpenVMS

 ?(2) APC 2U high 3000VA SUM3000RMXL2U UPS systems


Rack: <https://www.ebay.com/itm/27U-4-Post-Open-Frame-Data-Server-Rack-19-32-Deep-3-Pairs-of-L-Rails/161408751608>


-- 
John H. Reinhardt


From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org  Thu May  2 00:23:57 2019
From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2019 00:23:57 -0500
Subject: Modern Rack Rails in Classic Racks?
In-Reply-To: <45E64886-E755-4401-8226-02B01D1FEE7A@avanthar.com>
References: <20190429141830.1646D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <FD70871B-BEF3-4C40-A3FF-1CE74D929F68@avanthar.com>
 <D3B98E51-7B5F-4616-8F4D-916BBD4D7B3F@comcast.net>
 <F504CA18-0A36-449E-9527-D24BE8C3E9F7@avanthar.com>
 <CANCZdfo6KZZkSwvthwhnPTOSRP0FvrAYzmF8pvgaMRTxsZNF0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <62C00D1D-3018-499E-93A8-6EE3D7878923@avanthar.com>
 <CANCZdfo_A+ukCgnfDx7Rpki9gaGTOCMCsph4+JobT3ubyNjw9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <45E64886-E755-4401-8226-02B01D1FEE7A@avanthar.com>
Message-ID: <20ffc991-cd92-e21c-81fa-43bba56822f6@thereinhardts.org>

On 4/29/2019 7:20 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
> the system temperatures. My plan is to keep the 24x7 servers as low to the ground as possible. Stuff that gets powered of ?when needed?, can go higher up in the rack. The one exception will be if I put the MicroVAX III with RA7x drives into the rack, like I?m threatening to. Those would probably be forced to go in the bottom.
> Zane

That's what I had to do with my rack (see other email).? The HP C3000 is a 6U high blade chassis and heavy when loaded so it had to go right above the two UPS (also heavy).? This gives a nice, low center of gravity.? I hope the tape drives higher for less bending over when doing tape manipulations.? The network switch, router and affiliated items also go high for the same reason.

Perhaps, in hindsight, I should have had electric and network run to the garage, but with Texas summers and no A/C I wouldn't be able to run anything a good number of months.? I do miss my Ohio basement.? Basements in the DFW area are few and far between due to the type of soil around here.

-- 
John H. Reinhardt


From healyzh at avanthar.com  Thu May  2 00:54:38 2019
From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Wed, 1 May 2019 22:54:38 -0700
Subject: Modern Rack Rails in Classic Racks?
In-Reply-To: <5ec447e7-2c6b-88fe-f385-2d50ecd95760@thereinhardts.org>
References: <20190429141830.1646D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <FD70871B-BEF3-4C40-A3FF-1CE74D929F68@avanthar.com>
 <5ec447e7-2c6b-88fe-f385-2d50ecd95760@thereinhardts.org>
Message-ID: <755293F9-884C-4261-BB7B-188CA483BED1@avanthar.com>


> On May 1, 2019, at 10:11 PM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Moving from Ohio to Texas in 2017 I gave away two DEC tall racks (36U?).  Rebuilding here in my converted bedroom office I bought an open 4 post rack off Ebay that lists as 27U but has about 29U of usable space (see link at end of email).  The top was meant to be two thick caps tying the two sides together but I'm putting shelf on top for a Compaq TSZ08 reel to reel tape drive.  I've found that rack shelves are an expensive thing.  My main rack was "only" $200 and most shelves were around $100 each.  Then I found this one at Amazon: <https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06Y3LZVL8/>  for around $45.  It's solid and sturdy. The shelf itself is 26" deep and the supports are adjustable for racks of different depths.   It's fixed and doesn't slide, however.   It may be what you're looking for.  I haven't found anything better for less.  It's made by the same company that made my rack and now I see I could have gotten it cheaper ($6) from Ebay! Doh! <https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rack-Server-Vented-Shelf-19-Rack-Mount-1U-Adjustable-from-27-31-Shelves/162159828843>
> 
> 
> If you're also looking for something to use to mount your Proliant (If you don't have the HP rails) then these are good:
> 
> Full Length adjustable Rack Rails: <https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01C4TDF0G>
> 
> Partial Length adjustable Rack Rails: <https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00XXDLHDA>
> 
> They com in single, two and four packs with slight savings the more you buy.  Because of the adjustable nature, they do have some screws which impinge on the roughly 17.5" between the rack rails. I have a few things that fit rather tightly against them but they do flex a bit which allows the item to fit.

Wow, thanks for the links!  Actually thanks to those full length rails you pointed out, check these shelves out.  Cheaper, same exact design, and higher weight rating.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01A6JQYDG

I like the look of those full length rails for some DEC HW, including an old BA350 or two.

I ended up with a really nice 42U Tripp-Lite rack for $150 tonight.  Missing two of the four side panels, and I managed to break a side-panel latch getting it unloaded, but it actually has the front and back doors.

Well, thanks to Amazon, I?ll have two shelves, a 4 pack of the full length rails, and a Tripp-Lite PDU with surge suppression on Saturday.  Looks like I know what I?m doing this weekend. :-)

Hopefully those rails will work for stuff like a PDP-8/e or a PDP-8/m.  With 42U, I think I can fit everything I *need* in there with plenty of room to spare.  Might be time to finally get some of the cool stuff where I can use it on occasion.

Zane



From paulkoning at comcast.net  Thu May  2 08:13:20 2019
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2019 09:13:20 -0400
Subject: Greetings
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimnjjVZVxx1xogFS4cjFZ4Z6Y_g7G3czyarVF19eh0aOdg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMFEAABeBiL_aD8iUXA2psLz1v9aqOdetN3-u0rkGHp2tAO_nQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <67ff4fb5-7a62-0835-07a4-2cbe0626d565@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAMFEAAA=dcmc=GGnr0GcTr7RN8x8RX08EJQ6M+4oYfMTbudwqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <11961447-0d79-55c6-d1a1-e6373749fdd3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <f64b6f76-01a2-3aa5-aeda-5e62162cf81a@gmail.com>
 <B3E58076-EE58-4CA5-A7F1-574CFEB17F39@kerberos.davies.net.au>
 <7121bc19-a2b2-3491-201c-43b8cdeb14ad@ntlworld.com>
 <8835C611-5C46-4510-BF6D-B4B43BE95BB1@comcast.net>
 <CAALmimnjjVZVxx1xogFS4cjFZ4Z6Y_g7G3czyarVF19eh0aOdg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6D4E050F-AC2D-4F72-9688-0AEB85FFD075@comcast.net>



> On May 1, 2019, at 10:58 PM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Wed, May 1, 2019 at 7:42 PM Paul Koning via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> ...
>> 9.3 names back then, I'm pretty sure.  File system still in an ACP (separate process)?  DECnet Phase II ???
> 
> I think those were still true for V3.X.  I know we had a problem back
> then with our backups where someone elevated the priority of the Tape
> ACP over the Disk ACP (because it was faster) that left us with months
> of corrupt backups.
> 
> -ethan

Wow, that reflects very badly on the engineering involved.  Setting priorities wrong might cause things not to get done, or to take too long, but it cannot ever be an excuse for data corruption.

	paul


From vintagecomputersmn at gmail.com  Thu May  2 09:25:10 2019
From: vintagecomputersmn at gmail.com (Mister PDP)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2019 09:25:10 -0500
Subject: Looking for DEC M8017-AA jumper settings
Message-ID: <CAHnoH6zMJF6WDW2TqM4JWT_vh+pD_jWVEfgFLX4MKott-YQ6Eg@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I have this DEC M8017-AA / DLV11 module that I am trying to configure to
act as a console. I have been trying to find a manual to tell me what
jumpers go where, but the only manuals or resources I can seem to scrounge
up are for the DLV11-E, DLV11-F, and DLV11-J.

If anybody knows what the jumper settings are, or where I can find them, I
would really appreciate it. Here is a image of the board I am trying to
configure: https://ibb.co/MS3hphz

Thank You, Gavin

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Thu May  2 09:49:57 2019
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2019 09:49:57 -0500
Subject: Greetings
In-Reply-To: <6D4E050F-AC2D-4F72-9688-0AEB85FFD075@comcast.net>
References: <CAMFEAABeBiL_aD8iUXA2psLz1v9aqOdetN3-u0rkGHp2tAO_nQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <67ff4fb5-7a62-0835-07a4-2cbe0626d565@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAMFEAAA=dcmc=GGnr0GcTr7RN8x8RX08EJQ6M+4oYfMTbudwqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <11961447-0d79-55c6-d1a1-e6373749fdd3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <f64b6f76-01a2-3aa5-aeda-5e62162cf81a@gmail.com>
 <B3E58076-EE58-4CA5-A7F1-574CFEB17F39@kerberos.davies.net.au>
 <7121bc19-a2b2-3491-201c-43b8cdeb14ad@ntlworld.com>
 <8835C611-5C46-4510-BF6D-B4B43BE95BB1@comcast.net>
 <CAALmimnjjVZVxx1xogFS4cjFZ4Z6Y_g7G3czyarVF19eh0aOdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <6D4E050F-AC2D-4F72-9688-0AEB85FFD075@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAALmimkcGMhcmYzwAL+n02PJwcyEABP3-2j_j_VnP7Y=WJieSg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 8:13 AM Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
> > On May 1, 2019, at 10:58 PM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I think those were still true for V3.X.  I know we had a problem back
> > then with our backups where someone elevated the priority of the Tape
> > ACP over the Disk ACP (because it was faster) that left us with months
> > of corrupt backups.
>
> Wow, that reflects very badly on the engineering involved.  Setting priorities wrong might cause things not to get done, or to take too long, but it cannot ever be an excuse for data corruption.

Thinking back 35 years... it was that someone enabled the backup
operator account with SETPRI, allowing the operator to elevate the
priority of the script.  What I think was happening was that the
script was grabbing buffers from the disk before they were filled and
slamming them out to tape.  It definitely cut minutes off the backup
time, which is why it happened.

I'm sure the VMS wizards hadn't expected a user process to run at
priority 31 (IIRC) because anyone with SETPRI _surely_ had the wisdom
not to elevate above system processes.

Definitely a failure to think of ways users could abuse the system.

-ethan

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu May  2 10:12:16 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu,  2 May 2019 11:12:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Looking for DEC M8017-AA jumper settings
Message-ID: <20190502151216.4D01F18C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Mister PDP

    > I have this DEC M8017-AA / DLV11 module that I am trying to configure
    > ... the only manuals or resources I can seem to scrounge up are for the
    > DLV11-E, DLV11-F, and DLV11-J.
    > If anybody knows what the jumper settings are, or where I can find
    > them

Huh? According to EK-DLV11-OP-001, an M8017 _is_ a DLV11-E?

If you need config info for a DLV11 (M7940), it's available in the "LSI-11,
PDP-11/03 User's Manual" (EK-LSI11-TM-003), available in BitSavers.

	Noel

From vintagecomputersmn at gmail.com  Thu May  2 10:38:54 2019
From: vintagecomputersmn at gmail.com (Mister PDP)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2019 10:38:54 -0500
Subject: Looking for DEC M8017-AA jumper settings
In-Reply-To: <20190502151216.4D01F18C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190502151216.4D01F18C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAHnoH6zQmhGuKFVrX4fq51RZ5jvHT=peXnkG1KBdoued0yA_Sw@mail.gmail.com>

Well, it defiantly is a M8017 (M8017-AA to be exact), not a M7940.
https://ibb.co/rQk55FC

>From what I read, the M8017-AA refers to the DLV11-E/EC, but reading
through the "DLV11-E and DLV11-F
asynchronous line interface user's manual", the diagrams of the DLV11-E and
F do not line up my module.

On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 10:12 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>     > From: Mister PDP
>
>     > I have this DEC M8017-AA / DLV11 module that I am trying to configure
>     > ... the only manuals or resources I can seem to scrounge up are for
> the
>     > DLV11-E, DLV11-F, and DLV11-J.
>     > If anybody knows what the jumper settings are, or where I can find
>     > them
>
> Huh? According to EK-DLV11-OP-001, an M8017 _is_ a DLV11-E?
>
> If you need config info for a DLV11 (M7940), it's available in the "LSI-11,
> PDP-11/03 User's Manual" (EK-LSI11-TM-003), available in BitSavers.
>
>         Noel
>

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu May  2 11:02:27 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu,  2 May 2019 12:02:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Looking for DEC M8017-AA jumper settings
Message-ID: <20190502160227.D88C418C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Mister PDP

    > reading through the "DLV11-E and DLV11-F asynchronous line interface
    > user's manual", the diagrams of the DLV11-E and F do not line up my
    > module.

Oh, must be a later board rev, one that's not covered in EK-DLV11-OP-001.
(I should have compared your pic with the manual illustration, sorry.)

{Checks}

Yes, there is a D rev etch; see page 22-3 of the "Microcomputer Products
Handbook" (perhaps the single most useful book for early QBUS stuff - anyone
who's working with that stuff should get one - they're not too hard to find
on eBait). The layout corresponds with the image of yours.

	Noel

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Thu May  2 11:40:38 2019
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2019 12:40:38 -0400
Subject: Greetings
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimkcGMhcmYzwAL+n02PJwcyEABP3-2j_j_VnP7Y=WJieSg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMFEAABeBiL_aD8iUXA2psLz1v9aqOdetN3-u0rkGHp2tAO_nQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <67ff4fb5-7a62-0835-07a4-2cbe0626d565@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAMFEAAA=dcmc=GGnr0GcTr7RN8x8RX08EJQ6M+4oYfMTbudwqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <11961447-0d79-55c6-d1a1-e6373749fdd3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <f64b6f76-01a2-3aa5-aeda-5e62162cf81a@gmail.com>
 <B3E58076-EE58-4CA5-A7F1-574CFEB17F39@kerberos.davies.net.au>
 <7121bc19-a2b2-3491-201c-43b8cdeb14ad@ntlworld.com>
 <8835C611-5C46-4510-BF6D-B4B43BE95BB1@comcast.net>
 <CAALmimnjjVZVxx1xogFS4cjFZ4Z6Y_g7G3czyarVF19eh0aOdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <6D4E050F-AC2D-4F72-9688-0AEB85FFD075@comcast.net>
 <CAALmimkcGMhcmYzwAL+n02PJwcyEABP3-2j_j_VnP7Y=WJieSg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <32B6EF86-CA4B-4DDD-9C02-5C3DDC566505@comcast.net>



> On May 2, 2019, at 10:49 AM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 8:13 AM Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
>>> On May 1, 2019, at 10:58 PM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I think those were still true for V3.X.  I know we had a problem back
>>> then with our backups where someone elevated the priority of the Tape
>>> ACP over the Disk ACP (because it was faster) that left us with months
>>> of corrupt backups.
>> 
>> Wow, that reflects very badly on the engineering involved.  Setting priorities wrong might cause things not to get done, or to take too long, but it cannot ever be an excuse for data corruption.
> 
> Thinking back 35 years... it was that someone enabled the backup
> operator account with SETPRI, allowing the operator to elevate the
> priority of the script.  What I think was happening was that the
> script was grabbing buffers from the disk before they were filled and
> slamming them out to tape.  It definitely cut minutes off the backup
> time, which is why it happened.
> 
> I'm sure the VMS wizards hadn't expected a user process to run at
> priority 31 (IIRC) because anyone with SETPRI _surely_ had the wisdom
> not to elevate above system processes.
> 
> Definitely a failure to think of ways users could abuse the system.
> 
> -ethan

More in particular, it is a design failure, relying on timing hacks rather than explicitly and correctly passing ownership of data from producer to consumer.

	paul


From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com  Thu May  2 17:16:08 2019
From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2019 17:16:08 -0500
Subject: Procedure to convert a vax into a stand alone workstation in a LAN
Message-ID: <68222d5d-7c7c-c224-b1c8-ccdd810bf767@gmail.com>

Hello;

In my quest to try to see what the problem is with my vs/60, I want to 
convert it into a networked stand-alone machine, i.e. not use clustering 
at all.? What is the easiest way to do this? I still want it to do 
DECnet and TCPIP.

Carlos.


From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com  Thu May  2 17:25:39 2019
From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2019 23:25:39 +0100
Subject: Procedure to convert a vax into a stand alone workstation in a LAN
In-Reply-To: <68222d5d-7c7c-c224-b1c8-ccdd810bf767@gmail.com>
References: <68222d5d-7c7c-c224-b1c8-ccdd810bf767@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F86DFDF2-B5DF-44E8-9998-99AAD2F3C6BB@gmail.com>


> On 2 May 2019, at 23:16, Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Hello;
> 
> In my quest to try to see what the problem is with my vs/60, I want to convert it into a networked stand-alone machine, i.e. not use clustering at all.  What is the easiest way to do this? I still want it to do DECnet and TCPIP.
> 
> Carlos.
> 


The easiest way is to turn clustering off, so if the machine?s running press the HALT button then from the Dead Sergeant prompt (>>>) do this:

>>> B/1 (or B/R5:1)
SYSBOOT> SET VAXCLUSTER 0
SYSBOOT> C

This will boot as a single node and let you log in assuming your SYSUAF.DAT isn?t on a clustered drive. If it is add this command after SET VAXCLUSTER 0:

SYSBOOT> SET UAFALT 1

This bypasses the main system authorisation file and lets you log in as SYSTEM with no password. Usually. The caveat emptor here is if the previous owners also used a SYSUAF_ALT file in which case it gets a little more complex.

-- 
adrian/witchy
Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection?
t: @binarydinosaurs    f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs
w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk





From billdegnan at gmail.com  Thu May  2 19:14:20 2019
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Thu, 2 May 2019 20:14:20 -0400
Subject: Procedure to convert a vax into a stand alone workstation in a LAN
In-Reply-To: <F86DFDF2-B5DF-44E8-9998-99AAD2F3C6BB@gmail.com>
References: <68222d5d-7c7c-c224-b1c8-ccdd810bf767@gmail.com>
 <F86DFDF2-B5DF-44E8-9998-99AAD2F3C6BB@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBueafvp3-ovJRnkQyqPntf7Le3LPjiQFS0bd2YMtuvBB0g@mail.gmail.com>

What version of VMS?  Check the startup file (Systartup_v5.com or
Systartup_vms.com) and see what's going on with the system before you
change anything IYAM.

Using the editor you can comment out networking lines if you want to
disable the DECNET commands.  See if Multinet is installed, that's an easy
way to create a stand-alone VAX that can connect to the internet.

I can turn on my VAXstation 3100 if you want to check it out, I have it set
as microvax3100.vintagecomputer.net but I don't leave it running if not in
use.

Also, make a backup to the backup drive so  you can restore to what it was
originally.

Bill

On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 6:25 PM Adrian Graham via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> > On 2 May 2019, at 23:16, Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > Hello;
> >
> > In my quest to try to see what the problem is with my vs/60, I want to
> convert it into a networked stand-alone machine, i.e. not use clustering at
> all.  What is the easiest way to do this? I still want it to do DECnet and
> TCPIP.
> >
> > Carlos.
> >
>
>
> The easiest way is to turn clustering off, so if the machine?s running
> press the HALT button then from the Dead Sergeant prompt (>>>) do this:
>
> >>> B/1 (or B/R5:1)
> SYSBOOT> SET VAXCLUSTER 0
> SYSBOOT> C
>
> This will boot as a single node and let you log in assuming your
> SYSUAF.DAT isn?t on a clustered drive. If it is add this command after SET
> VAXCLUSTER 0:
>
> SYSBOOT> SET UAFALT 1
>
> This bypasses the main system authorisation file and lets you log in as
> SYSTEM with no password. Usually. The caveat emptor here is if the previous
> owners also used a SYSUAF_ALT file in which case it gets a little more
> complex.
>
> --
> adrian/witchy
> Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer
> collection?
> t: @binarydinosaurs    f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs
> w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk
>
>
>
>
>

From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk  Fri May  3 03:32:11 2019
From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson)
Date: Fri, 03 May 2019 09:32:11 +0100
Subject: VCF Southeast Photos
In-Reply-To: <CAEfH1SGPcPXubpBYZSzF4D10Qfp8dbPFpDJqffT9xAkYGb9Y3w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEfH1SGPcPXubpBYZSzF4D10Qfp8dbPFpDJqffT9xAkYGb9Y3w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <91bzho49bw4.fsf@spline.cs.nott.ac.uk>

Very nice photos although I am confused by some. Some of them appear to
be moving but a lot of stuff stays still. What is happening??

This one for example:
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMxQT03fXAj3rZSF8jUm5IrLnmLnVYTTP_hgiNtZ6z-0-pKjaFeKB3aw1ItxldqKA/photo/AF1QipPyuT8UHx84MIB-PxX5L04jePbF6tP80ojp73Iz?key=RjVnUU5qZ19haWNrbkkxMmF2bTFlMndiOFlkRWxB

Aaron

On  1 May 2019 at 21:10 BST, Jason T via cctalk wrote:

> Last weekend I made an unannounced visit out to Roswell, GA to visit
> our brothers-and-sisters-in-hoarding at the Vintage Computer Festival
> Southeast.  They were hosted by the new location of the Computer
> Museum of America, not yet open to the public.  The show was a solid
> representation of the hobby, with a wide range of micros, minis and
> workstations as well as a few calculators and computing ephemera.  On
> the museum side, I've never seen so many Crays in once place - and
> they're not even done yet!
>
> Here is my photo set:  https://photos.app.goo.gl/aiKGadREX511xeUt5
> (contains computers, computer collectors and one giant rabbit)
>
> Big thanks to Earl and the gang for putting on another great VCF and
> showing me that southern hospitality.
>
> More VCF Midwest news coming soon!
>
> -j


-- 
Aaron Jackson, Research Associate
Computer Vision Lab, University of Nottingham
http://aaronsplace.co.uk

From lproven at gmail.com  Fri May  3 06:21:23 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 13:21:23 +0200
Subject: VCF Southeast Photos
In-Reply-To: <91bzho49bw4.fsf@spline.cs.nott.ac.uk>
References: <CAEfH1SGPcPXubpBYZSzF4D10Qfp8dbPFpDJqffT9xAkYGb9Y3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <91bzho49bw4.fsf@spline.cs.nott.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGSKut=iKc+eOxSOadGO7EwJ2Oejw5Je3ivYd9iRydZKQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 3 May 2019 at 10:41, Aaron Jackson via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Very nice photos although I am confused by some. Some of them appear to
> be moving but a lot of stuff stays still. What is happening??

Please bottom-post on the list.

It looks to me like an Apple "live photo".

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From sales at elecplus.com  Fri May  3 12:24:04 2019
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 12:24:04 -0500
Subject: Keyboards added today
Message-ID: <073101d501d5$02274ed0$0675ec70$@com>

Some you might want, since they go to Link terminals.

 

http://www.elecshopper.com/nmb-rt8255c-at-keyboard.html

 

http://www.elecshopper.com/fujitsu-fkb-4700-series-keyboard.html

 

http://www.elecshopper.com/nmb-rt-101-keyboard-complete.html

 

http://www.elecshopper.com/link-t27-keyboard.html

 

http://www.elecshopper.com/macro-mc-27-keyboard.html

 

Cindy Croxton

Electronics Plus

1613 Water Street

Kerrville, TX 78028

830-370-3239 cell

sales at elecplus.com

 



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

From healyzh at avanthar.com  Fri May  3 13:00:32 2019
From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 11:00:32 -0700
Subject: Honeywell Terminals?
Message-ID: <9CB42AC1-9E6F-4C87-A70F-C2215B735FB0@avanthar.com>

Out of curiosity, how common are Honeywell terminals like would have been used on a DPS-8?

Zane





From cclist at sytse.net  Fri May  3 13:02:03 2019
From: cclist at sytse.net (Sytse van Slooten)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 20:02:03 +0200
Subject: VCF Southeast Photos, Now Thinking Machines
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1905020108080.10932@users.757.org>
References: <CAEfH1SGPcPXubpBYZSzF4D10Qfp8dbPFpDJqffT9xAkYGb9Y3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <60B5F96D-00DA-4E67-B894-E6D3A874756B@gmail.com>
 <dff4a073d3f182d683777e169367ab0c@alanlee.org>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1905020108080.10932@users.757.org>
Message-ID: <E089357C-B6A5-43AA-8CEE-5AD957D8E8A2@sytse.net>

>> It's a CM-2.  The problem with most CM-2s - aside not working in 2019 - is most were never fully populated with card cages in all 8 hyper-cubes.  That particular machine only has card cages in 2 of the hyper-cubes.  The other 6 are empty.  I'm not sure a machine with max 64K processors was ever actually sold to a real customer.

> Very cool to see some of these being preserved.
> 

Is there any documentation still around? I did a quick check on bitsavers, but couldn?t find any? was I looking in the wrong place?


From sales at elecplus.com  Fri May  3 13:05:45 2019
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 13:05:45 -0500
Subject: Honeywell Terminals?
In-Reply-To: <9CB42AC1-9E6F-4C87-A70F-C2215B735FB0@avanthar.com>
References: <9CB42AC1-9E6F-4C87-A70F-C2215B735FB0@avanthar.com>
Message-ID: <07ae01d501da$d4d0ce10$7e726a30$@com>

I have some pics of them, but I no longer have them. Have not seen any in
years.

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane Healy
via cctalk
Sent: Friday, May 03, 2019 1:01 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Honeywell Terminals?

Out of curiosity, how common are Honeywell terminals like would have been
used on a DPS-8?

Zane





---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


From healyzh at avanthar.com  Fri May  3 13:12:12 2019
From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 11:12:12 -0700
Subject: Honeywell Terminals?
In-Reply-To: <07ae01d501da$d4d0ce10$7e726a30$@com>
References: <9CB42AC1-9E6F-4C87-A70F-C2215B735FB0@avanthar.com>
 <07ae01d501da$d4d0ce10$7e726a30$@com>
Message-ID: <B87E4AA6-D8F7-4E88-A924-A678878F7510@avanthar.com>

I?m not surprised, I?ve not used one since the early 90?s.

Zane




> On May 3, 2019, at 11:05 AM, Electronics Plus <sales at elecplus.com> wrote:
> 
> I have some pics of them, but I no longer have them. Have not seen any in
> years.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane Healy
> via cctalk
> Sent: Friday, May 03, 2019 1:01 PM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Honeywell Terminals?
> 
> Out of curiosity, how common are Honeywell terminals like would have been
> used on a DPS-8?
> 
> Zane
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> 


From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri May  3 14:13:35 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 12:13:35 -0700
Subject: Wilson Labs WBC-3000 (was Re: Q Bus front panel)
In-Reply-To: <e1039feb-94f6-413b-a7cf-38ac686c25db@bitsavers.org>
References: <0ae45f9e-2a4f-3262-73e6-180c06f14e47@bitsavers.org>
 <e1039feb-94f6-413b-a7cf-38ac686c25db@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <b54f0be0-0a6e-782c-67a5-e4dfab818295@bitsavers.org>



On 5/1/19 4:11 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:

> I did decide to get the Wilson Labs RL01 emulator he just listed.

Put up some pics. The electronics weren't at all what I was expecting
http://bitsavers.org/pdf/wilsonLabs/WBC-3000

it has a 1.2gb SCSI drive inside.



From sales at elecplus.com  Fri May  3 14:26:41 2019
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 14:26:41 -0500
Subject: Dallas drive
Message-ID: <07f701d501e6$231df790$6959e6b0$@com>

I plan to go to Dallas next week for a quick run.

Things I know are there:

IBM XT and AT computers with kbds, no monitors. (3 pallets last I checked)

CASES of NIB 360K internal floppy drives (not diskettes) for the original
IBM PC

Some hdd for the original PCs, new and used

Defective IBM monitors (flybacks are no longer made)

Parts for 5140 computers, some NIB (no kbds)

Original DEC things that have orange flippy switches-WARNING! Smells like
dead rats and rat poop. Nasty condition! Looks something like this
https://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-11

Lots of NIB off brand old computers, PCs, like Apex by Compaq

Most of the stuff is PC or laptop related

 

Let me know what u want and what u want to pay, I will bring it home and
ship. Car will only hold so much.

 

Cindy Croxton

Electronics Plus

1613 Water Street

Kerrville, TX 78028

830-370-3239 cell

sales at elecplus.com

 



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

From healyzh at avanthar.com  Fri May  3 14:28:04 2019
From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 12:28:04 -0700
Subject: Wilson Labs WBC-3000 (was Re: Q Bus front panel)
In-Reply-To: <b54f0be0-0a6e-782c-67a5-e4dfab818295@bitsavers.org>
References: <0ae45f9e-2a4f-3262-73e6-180c06f14e47@bitsavers.org>
 <e1039feb-94f6-413b-a7cf-38ac686c25db@bitsavers.org>
 <b54f0be0-0a6e-782c-67a5-e4dfab818295@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <5EFF2576-17C7-4A45-94D4-7D38EDB4A746@avanthar.com>

> On May 3, 2019, at 12:13 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> On 5/1/19 4:11 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> I did decide to get the Wilson Labs RL01 emulator he just listed.
> 
> Put up some pics. The electronics weren't at all what I was expecting
> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/wilsonLabs/WBC-3000
> 
> it has a 1.2gb SCSI drive inside.

Interesting device, reminds me in some ways of a Webster WQESD/04, with the advantage of not requiring an ESDI Hard Drive.

Zane




From sales at elecplus.com  Fri May  3 14:33:07 2019
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 14:33:07 -0500
Subject: Decrepit old HDD
Message-ID: <083f01d501e7$09608010$1c218030$@com>

I have the opportunity to purchase some old 50-pin SCSI, ESDI, MFM, RLL etc.
drives.

There is no way to test them, and there are no refunds.

There are no dents or obvious signs of damage, but that means noting.

Is there any way to resurrect these if they are dead/defective?

Any interest?

 

Cindy Croxton

Electronics Plus

1613 Water Street

Kerrville, TX 78028

830-370-3239 cell

sales at elecplus.com

 



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

From linimon at lonesome.com  Fri May  3 14:33:18 2019
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 19:33:18 +0000
Subject: Dallas drive
In-Reply-To: <07f701d501e6$231df790$6959e6b0$@com>
References: <07f701d501e6$231df790$6959e6b0$@com>
Message-ID: <20190503193317.GA8345@lonesome.com>

On Fri, May 03, 2019 at 02:26:41PM -0500, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote:
> Original DEC things that have orange flippy switches-WARNING! Smells like
> dead rats and rat poop. Nasty condition! Looks something like this
> https://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-11

I'd love to help drive up, especially to look at this unit, but I have
already made other committments.  Consider the F-150 volunteered for
"next time".

mcl

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri May  3 14:45:38 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 12:45:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Decrepit old HDD
In-Reply-To: <083f01d501e7$09608010$1c218030$@com>
References: <083f01d501e7$09608010$1c218030$@com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905031241440.7993@shell.lmi.net>

It is rarely PRACTICAL to repair a dead drive.
If it has important data on it, then repairing or swapping the board is 
sometimes done.  It is extremely rare that there would be a need 
sufficient to justify opening the "bubble".


But, often, drives are identified as being dead or defective, when all 
that they need is to redo the low level format.


On Fri, 3 May 2019, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote:

> I have the opportunity to purchase some old 50-pin SCSI, ESDI, MFM, RLL etc.
> drives.
>
> There is no way to test them, and there are no refunds.
>
> There are no dents or obvious signs of damage, but that means noting.
>
> Is there any way to resurrect these if they are dead/defective?
>
> Any interest?
>
>
>
> Cindy Croxton
>
> Electronics Plus
>
> 1613 Water Street
>
> Kerrville, TX 78028
>
> 830-370-3239 cell
>
> sales at elecplus.com
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus

From sales at elecplus.com  Fri May  3 15:05:33 2019
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 15:05:33 -0500
Subject: I need some education (PDP)
Message-ID: <085d01d501eb$90f18f70$b2d4ae50$@com>

So I called my buddy of 20+ years. 

Got old PDP junk left? 

Like what kinda junk?

PDP 8 or 11? 

Hmm, got PDP 8 boards and BA11 boxes. PDP11 makes no sense, it is a series,
11/70 or what?

 

I know NOTHING about this stuff. I told him slide in boxes with flippy
switches. He laughed and said he will send me over a list of all the OLD DEC
stuff left in the warehouse. Shipping will be from Calif. Pickup avail, or
shipping, for rack stuff.

 

Cindy Croxton

Electronics Plus

1613 Water Street

Kerrville, TX 78028

830-370-3239 cell

sales at elecplus.com

 



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

From jan at janadelsbach.com  Fri May  3 15:26:32 2019
From: jan at janadelsbach.com (Jan Adelsbach)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 22:26:32 +0200
Subject: VCF Southeast Photos, Now Thinking Machines
In-Reply-To: <E089357C-B6A5-43AA-8CEE-5AD957D8E8A2@sytse.net>
References: <CAEfH1SGPcPXubpBYZSzF4D10Qfp8dbPFpDJqffT9xAkYGb9Y3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <60B5F96D-00DA-4E67-B894-E6D3A874756B@gmail.com>
 <dff4a073d3f182d683777e169367ab0c@alanlee.org>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1905020108080.10932@users.757.org>
 <E089357C-B6A5-43AA-8CEE-5AD957D8E8A2@sytse.net>
Message-ID: <d2294b7f-8876-2762-2805-e2988a23523d@janadelsbach.com>

On 5/3/19 8:02 PM, Sytse van Slooten via cctalk wrote:
>>> It's a CM-2.  The problem with most CM-2s - aside not working in 2019 - is most were never fully populated with card cages in all 8 hyper-cubes.  That particular machine only has card cages in 2 of the hyper-cubes.  The other 6 are empty.  I'm not sure a machine with max 64K processors was ever actually sold to a real customer.
> 
>> Very cool to see some of these being preserved.
>>
> 
> Is there any documentation still around? I did a quick check on bitsavers, but couldn?t find any? was I looking in the wrong place?
> 

Here is some documentation:
http://people.csail.mit.edu/bradley/cm5docs/

Also there are a couple of documents on archive.org like the CM chip 
specification:
https://archive.org/details/06Kahle001103

- Jan




From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Fri May  3 17:22:35 2019
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 23:22:35 +0100
Subject: RS2030 MIPS workstation
Message-ID: <04174ee7-a7c9-c5d6-631e-1c5cdf451380@dunnington.plus.com>

Anyone know much about early MIPS workstations?  I'm trying to get a 
MIPS RS2030 to boot, without much luck so far.  It goes through the 
selftest but stops with the internal LED display at "5" accompanied by a 
continuous beep.

Known problems:

- The Dallas DS1287 battery is flat; I can hack a 3V lithium onto that. 
I assume it should still work to some extent even if the contents are lost?

- The RAM is highly suspect.  I think it needs a minimum of 8MB to start 
up.  It has a good complement of SIPPs, but some of them are definitely 
non-original and are actually 30-pin SIMMs that somebody has done a 
rubbish job of soldering short stiff wires onto.

So I'd like to know what the RAM spec really is, whether I need to 
reprogram the Dallas chip (and if so what goes where), and what the 
diagnostic numbers on the internal LED mean.  Anyone?

-- 
Pete
Pete Turnbull

From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri May  3 18:25:39 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 16:25:39 -0700
Subject: RS2030 MIPS workstation
In-Reply-To: <04174ee7-a7c9-c5d6-631e-1c5cdf451380@dunnington.plus.com>
References: <04174ee7-a7c9-c5d6-631e-1c5cdf451380@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID: <df9f7df2-b531-6e2e-9e28-2e794127cc2d@bitsavers.org>



On 5/3/19 3:22 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote:
> Anyone know much about early MIPS workstations?? I'm trying to get a MIPS RS2030 to boot, without much luck so far.? It
> goes through the selftest but stops with the internal LED display at "5" accompanied by a continuous beep.
> 
> Known problems:
> 
> - The Dallas DS1287 battery is flat; I can hack a 3V lithium onto that. I assume it should still work to some extent
> even if the contents are lost?
> 
> - The RAM is highly suspect.? I think it needs a minimum of 8MB to start up.? It has a good complement of SIPPs, but
> some of them are definitely non-original and are actually 30-pin SIMMs that somebody has done a rubbish job of soldering
> short stiff wires onto.
> 
> So I'd like to know what the RAM spec really is, whether I need to reprogram the Dallas chip (and if so what goes
> where), and what the diagnostic numbers on the internal LED mean.? Anyone?
> 

http://www.geekdot.com/the-mips-rs2030/

someone else had the same problem in the comments



From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri May  3 18:47:32 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 16:47:32 -0700
Subject: RS2030 MIPS workstation
In-Reply-To: <df9f7df2-b531-6e2e-9e28-2e794127cc2d@bitsavers.org>
References: <04174ee7-a7c9-c5d6-631e-1c5cdf451380@dunnington.plus.com>
 <df9f7df2-b531-6e2e-9e28-2e794127cc2d@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <0c4ab3ac-ea7a-87a8-b0d8-d60b16cdd8f4@bitsavers.org>



On 5/3/19 4:25 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:

> http://www.geekdot.com/the-mips-rs2030/
> 
> someone else had the same problem in the comments
> 
> 

also, there is a simulation running in mame
if you look at drivers/mips.cpp you'll find the nvram layout

/*
	 * The following isn't a real dump, but a hand-made nvram image that allows
	 * entry to the boot monitor. Variables can be adjusted via the monitor,
	 * and are laid out as follows:
	 *
	 *   Offset  Length  Variable
	 *    0x0e      4    netaddr
	 *    0x12      1    lbaud
	 *    0x13      1    rbaud
	 *    0x14     20    bootfile
	 *    0x28      1    bootmode
	 *    0x29      1    console
	 *    0x2a      1    ponmask? or something similar
	 *    0x2b      3    unused?
	 *    0x2e      4    resetepc
	 *    0x32      4    resetra
	 *    0x36      1    keyswtch
	 *    0x37      1    flag
	 *    0x38      8    unused?
	 *
	 */


From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri May  3 19:04:21 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 17:04:21 -0700
Subject: RS2030 MIPS workstation
In-Reply-To: <df9f7df2-b531-6e2e-9e28-2e794127cc2d@bitsavers.org>
References: <04174ee7-a7c9-c5d6-631e-1c5cdf451380@dunnington.plus.com>
 <df9f7df2-b531-6e2e-9e28-2e794127cc2d@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <26288827-2026-0d95-deb5-5365e5edc730@bitsavers.org>



On 5/3/19 4:25 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:

>> So I'd like to know what the RAM spec really is, whether I need to reprogram the Dallas chip (and if so what goes
>> where), and what the diagnostic numbers on the internal LED mean.? Anyone?
>>

I thought I threw them all away, but i just found two 3020s and a 2030 with a full set of SIMMs
which seems to get through POST. Will try dumping the NVRAM



From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Fri May  3 19:22:47 2019
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 01:22:47 +0100
Subject: RS2030 MIPS workstation
In-Reply-To: <26288827-2026-0d95-deb5-5365e5edc730@bitsavers.org>
References: <04174ee7-a7c9-c5d6-631e-1c5cdf451380@dunnington.plus.com>
 <df9f7df2-b531-6e2e-9e28-2e794127cc2d@bitsavers.org>
 <26288827-2026-0d95-deb5-5365e5edc730@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <75f1f5cc-a99a-d9cc-3d7b-7d9999c221db@dunnington.plus.com>

On 04/05/2019 01:04, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
> On 5/3/19 4:25 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> 
>>> So I'd like to know what the RAM spec really is, whether I need to reprogram the Dallas chip (and if so what goes
>>> where), and what the diagnostic numbers on the internal LED mean.? Anyone?
>>>
> 
> I thought I threw them all away, but i just found two 3020s and a 2030 with a full set of SIMMs
> which seems to get through POST. Will try dumping the NVRAM

Thanks - that would be very useful, if you have time and suitable 
hardware.  I read the pages at geekdot.com a couple of weeks ago, but 
I'd not seen the MAME data.  I did find a manual about the ROM on 
Bitsavers recently, so with that ans the MAME info I can probably work 
out what some of those settings should be if necessary.  Sadly nothing 
I've found says anything about the internal LED display, but my 
suspicion is that the error is to do with bad RAM.

-- 
Pete
Pete Turnbull

From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri May  3 19:54:28 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 17:54:28 -0700
Subject: RS2030 MIPS workstation
In-Reply-To: <75f1f5cc-a99a-d9cc-3d7b-7d9999c221db@dunnington.plus.com>
References: <04174ee7-a7c9-c5d6-631e-1c5cdf451380@dunnington.plus.com>
 <df9f7df2-b531-6e2e-9e28-2e794127cc2d@bitsavers.org>
 <26288827-2026-0d95-deb5-5365e5edc730@bitsavers.org>
 <75f1f5cc-a99a-d9cc-3d7b-7d9999c221db@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID: <ab4182f9-61a7-a91c-b433-8e653b6dcf46@bitsavers.org>



On 5/3/19 5:22 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote:

> Thanks - that would be very useful, if you have time and suitable hardware.? I read the pages at geekdot.com a couple of
> weeks ago, but I'd not seen the MAME data.? I did find a manual about the ROM on Bitsavers recently, so with that ans
> the MAME info I can probably work out what some of those settings should be if necessary.? Sadly nothing I've found says
> anything about the internal LED display, but my suspicion is that the error is to do with bad RAM.
> 

I see we all were talking about the M2030 around 3 years ago
http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2016-May/017829.html



From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri May  3 20:54:46 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 18:54:46 -0700
Subject: RS2030 MIPS workstation
In-Reply-To: <04174ee7-a7c9-c5d6-631e-1c5cdf451380@dunnington.plus.com>
References: <04174ee7-a7c9-c5d6-631e-1c5cdf451380@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID: <10009718-41f7-f38b-c2da-395ed5a934b5@bitsavers.org>



On 5/3/19 3:22 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote:
> Anyone know much about early MIPS workstations? 

RISCos 4.52 src, incl monitor src up now under
http://bitsavers.org/bits/MIPS/RISCos



From imp at bsdimp.com  Fri May  3 21:39:15 2019
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2019 20:39:15 -0600
Subject: RS2030 MIPS workstation
In-Reply-To: <10009718-41f7-f38b-c2da-395ed5a934b5@bitsavers.org>
References: <04174ee7-a7c9-c5d6-631e-1c5cdf451380@dunnington.plus.com>
 <10009718-41f7-f38b-c2da-395ed5a934b5@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfqv7f3dfPTUnRFQOXEwA72KCLi-JPu6C7FugUOtT4CC-A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 3, 2019, 7:53 PM Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

>
>
> On 5/3/19 3:22 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote:
> > Anyone know much about early MIPS workstations?
>
> RISCos 4.52 src, incl monitor src up now under
> http://bitsavers.org/bits/MIPS/RISCos



I have QIC tapes and a 300mb hard drive with riscos on it. I'm unsure the
version, and it may be for the rs3xxx. I'll have to check. I think I still
have the workstation and would be happy to see it go to a good home... I'll
check...

Warner

>
>

From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com  Sat May  4 00:09:14 2019
From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 01:09:14 -0400
Subject: I need some education (PDP)
In-Reply-To: <085d01d501eb$90f18f70$b2d4ae50$@com>
References: <085d01d501eb$90f18f70$b2d4ae50$@com>
Message-ID: <CAJ2mpAg7RkVE2KtQ9Tcb=icp35SKHTMsa=EQe2UyiyJfjRiCZw@mail.gmail.com>

Please send along that list when you get it.

=]
--
Anders Nelson

+1 (517) 775-6129

www.erogear.com


On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 4:05 PM Electronics Plus via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> So I called my buddy of 20+ years.
>
> Got old PDP junk left?
>
> Like what kinda junk?
>
> PDP 8 or 11?
>
> Hmm, got PDP 8 boards and BA11 boxes. PDP11 makes no sense, it is a series,
> 11/70 or what?
>
>
>
> I know NOTHING about this stuff. I told him slide in boxes with flippy
> switches. He laughed and said he will send me over a list of all the OLD
> DEC
> stuff left in the warehouse. Shipping will be from Calif. Pickup avail, or
> shipping, for rack stuff.
>
>
>
> Cindy Croxton
>
> Electronics Plus
>
> 1613 Water Street
>
> Kerrville, TX 78028
>
> 830-370-3239 cell
>
> sales at elecplus.com
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>

From couryhouse at aol.com  Sat May  4 00:57:35 2019
From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 05:57:35 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: found in the shelf - Case study of control data corporation
 1958-1967 by Steven Arnold Estrin  B.S.B
References: <1690081097.72868.1556949455802.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1690081097.72868.1556949455802@mail.yahoo.com>

Found in the shelf in smecc library
 - Case study of control data corporation 1958-1967 by Steven Arnold Estrin B.S.B

?a master's? thesis -? anyone know? him or this?
Ed# at SMECC

From pdp11 at saccade.com  Fri May  3 23:54:03 2019
From: pdp11 at saccade.com (J. Peterson)
Date: Fri, 03 May 2019 21:54:03 -0700
Subject: Service for converting CD-ROMs into ISO files?
Message-ID: <20190504045344.809634E77A@mx2.ezwind.net>

Hi,

I have a stack of a few dozen CD-ROM disks with various files (old 
software, backup files, photos). I'm willing to pay a reasonable rate 
to have somebody read each of these in, convert them to .ISO files or 
some other reasonable format, and either make them downloadable or 
put them on a thumb drive.

Does anybody know of such a service? I can find lots of services for 
converting  audio CD's into MP3 files, but nothing that specifically 
handles data CD-ROMs.

Any leads most appreciated. Please reply directly, as I don't often 
check this list.

Thanks,
jp



From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com  Sat May  4 00:08:13 2019
From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 01:08:13 -0400
Subject: Service for converting CD-ROMs into ISO files?
In-Reply-To: <20190504045344.809634E77A@mx2.ezwind.net>
References: <20190504045344.809634E77A@mx2.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <CAJ2mpAhyuJqFur8GAubM1FMfKNtwu95trfW=To6s=Yg13C7d2w@mail.gmail.com>

If you want to do it yourself,

Mac: https://www.provideocoalition.com/howto_create_dvd_iso_from_files_mac/
Windows: http://wincdemu.sysprogs.org/tutorials/create/

--
Anders Nelson

+1 (517) 775-6129

www.erogear.com


On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 12:53 AM J. Peterson via cctech <
cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I have a stack of a few dozen CD-ROM disks with various files (old
> software, backup files, photos). I'm willing to pay a reasonable rate
> to have somebody read each of these in, convert them to .ISO files or
> some other reasonable format, and either make them downloadable or
> put them on a thumb drive.
>
> Does anybody know of such a service? I can find lots of services for
> converting  audio CD's into MP3 files, but nothing that specifically
> handles data CD-ROMs.
>
> Any leads most appreciated. Please reply directly, as I don't often
> check this list.
>
> Thanks,
> jp
>
>
>

From nico at farumdata.dk  Sat May  4 01:22:30 2019
From: nico at farumdata.dk (nico at farumdata.dk)
Date: Sat, 04 May 2019 08:22:30 +0200
Subject: Service for converting CD-ROMs into ISO files?
In-Reply-To: <20190504045344.809634E77A@mx2.ezwind.net>
References: <20190504045344.809634E77A@mx2.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <cc8ce683ef284d4936236d3d5f37bf84@farumdata.dk>

Hi,
I used to do things like that for a living (www.farumdata.dk), but 
mainly from magnetic media.
Nico


J. Peterson via cctech skrev den 2019-05-04 06:54:
> Hi,
> 
> I have a stack of a few dozen CD-ROM disks with various files (old
> software, backup files, photos). I'm willing to pay a reasonable rate
> to have somebody read each of these in, convert them to .ISO files or
> some other reasonable format, and either make them downloadable or put
> them on a thumb drive.
> 
> Does anybody know of such a service? I can find lots of services for
> converting  audio CD's into MP3 files, but nothing that specifically
> handles data CD-ROMs.
> 
> Any leads most appreciated. Please reply directly, as I don't often
> check this list.
> 
> Thanks,
> jp

From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Sat May  4 05:00:15 2019
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 11:00:15 +0100
Subject: RS2030 MIPS workstation
In-Reply-To: <10009718-41f7-f38b-c2da-395ed5a934b5@bitsavers.org>
References: <04174ee7-a7c9-c5d6-631e-1c5cdf451380@dunnington.plus.com>
 <10009718-41f7-f38b-c2da-395ed5a934b5@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <a753a96c-1a1c-ca93-3e3e-9b8249e87c74@dunnington.plus.com>

On 04/05/2019 02:54, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> On 5/3/19 3:22 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote:
>> Anyone know much about early MIPS workstations?
> 
> RISCos 4.52 src, incl monitor src up now under
> http://bitsavers.org/bits/MIPS/RISCos

Once I can get the machine to stop wailing, that will be useful!

-- 
Pete
Pete Turnbull

From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Sat May  4 04:58:56 2019
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 10:58:56 +0100
Subject: RS2030 MIPS workstation
In-Reply-To: <ab4182f9-61a7-a91c-b433-8e653b6dcf46@bitsavers.org>
References: <04174ee7-a7c9-c5d6-631e-1c5cdf451380@dunnington.plus.com>
 <df9f7df2-b531-6e2e-9e28-2e794127cc2d@bitsavers.org>
 <26288827-2026-0d95-deb5-5365e5edc730@bitsavers.org>
 <75f1f5cc-a99a-d9cc-3d7b-7d9999c221db@dunnington.plus.com>
 <ab4182f9-61a7-a91c-b433-8e653b6dcf46@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <c8fd7c6e-4bdd-4c37-853a-232811257fe2@dunnington.plus.com>

On 04/05/2019 01:54, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> 
> I see we all were talking about the M2030 around 3 years ago
> http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2016-May/017829.html

Some useful information in there, but I have the original MIPS keyboard 
and mouse.

-- 
Pete
Pete Turnbull

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Sat May  4 09:15:07 2019
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 10:15:07 -0400
Subject: Service for converting CD-ROMs into ISO files?
In-Reply-To: <20190504045344.809634E77A@mx2.ezwind.net>
References: <20190504045344.809634E77A@mx2.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <804F6412-3840-4C62-8526-0D16D1B2E7A6@comcast.net>



> On May 4, 2019, at 12:54 AM, J. Peterson via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I have a stack of a few dozen CD-ROM disks with various files (old software, backup files, photos). I'm willing to pay a reasonable rate to have somebody read each of these in, convert them to .ISO files or some other reasonable format, and either make them downloadable or put them on a thumb drive.
> 
> Does anybody know of such a service? I can find lots of services for converting  audio CD's into MP3 files, but nothing that specifically handles data CD-ROMs.
> 
> Any leads most appreciated. Please reply directly, as I don't often check this list.
> 
> Thanks,
> jp

I thought a CD-ROM (data CD) *is* an ISO image.  So I would expect all you need to do is make an image copy of the disk.  On Unix systems that's trivial, just use the "dd" command to copy /dev/whatever to myfile.iso.

	paul


From aek at bitsavers.org  Sat May  4 10:43:38 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 08:43:38 -0700
Subject: RS2030 MIPS workstation
In-Reply-To: <a753a96c-1a1c-ca93-3e3e-9b8249e87c74@dunnington.plus.com>
References: <04174ee7-a7c9-c5d6-631e-1c5cdf451380@dunnington.plus.com>
 <10009718-41f7-f38b-c2da-395ed5a934b5@bitsavers.org>
 <a753a96c-1a1c-ca93-3e3e-9b8249e87c74@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID: <29e404f5-6c6f-e1e1-59f6-9738228cc150@bitsavers.org>



On 5/4/19 3:00 AM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote:

> Once I can get the machine to stop wailing, that will be useful!
> 

I pulled the frame buffer out of my 2030 and got up as far as the
monitor on port 0 at 9600. My NVRAM is dead so I'm digging around
trying to find another DS1287. The machine has an XE1287 in it and
the battery terminals don't seem to be on the pin 12-13 end like the
Dallas.

I ordered a DEC BC29 cable to play with the frame buffers on the
machines that I still have.

Also, looking at the driver code it looks like the keyboard on the 2030
expects to be XT protocol.



From derek.newland at gmail.com  Sat May  4 12:51:03 2019
From: derek.newland at gmail.com (Derek Newland)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 13:51:03 -0400
Subject: I need some education (PDP)
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2mpAg7RkVE2KtQ9Tcb=icp35SKHTMsa=EQe2UyiyJfjRiCZw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <085d01d501eb$90f18f70$b2d4ae50$@com>
 <CAJ2mpAg7RkVE2KtQ9Tcb=icp35SKHTMsa=EQe2UyiyJfjRiCZw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+erfD=grsG55FLcFOs2jh=anq=Ux2a6riJL7FB-aASmFYdwVA@mail.gmail.com>

Yes please. I'm currently searching for a KY11-LB Programmer Console to get
my PDP 11/34 presentable.

http://retrocmp.com/tools/pdp-1134-programmers-console

On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 1:09 AM Anders Nelson via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Please send along that list when you get it.
>
> =]
> --
> Anders Nelson
>
> +1 (517) 775-6129
>
> www.erogear.com
>
>
> On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 4:05 PM Electronics Plus via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > So I called my buddy of 20+ years.
> >
> > Got old PDP junk left?
> >
> > Like what kinda junk?
> >
> > PDP 8 or 11?
> >
> > Hmm, got PDP 8 boards and BA11 boxes. PDP11 makes no sense, it is a
> series,
> > 11/70 or what?
> >
> >
> >
> > I know NOTHING about this stuff. I told him slide in boxes with flippy
> > switches. He laughed and said he will send me over a list of all the OLD
> > DEC
> > stuff left in the warehouse. Shipping will be from Calif. Pickup avail,
> or
> > shipping, for rack stuff.
> >
> >
> >
> > Cindy Croxton
> >
> > Electronics Plus
> >
> > 1613 Water Street
> >
> > Kerrville, TX 78028
> >
> > 830-370-3239 cell
> >
> > sales at elecplus.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> > https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> >
>


-- 
*Derek Newland* | (828) 234-4731 | derek.newland at gmail.com

From imp at bsdimp.com  Sat May  4 13:03:29 2019
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 12:03:29 -0600
Subject: RS2030 MIPS workstation
In-Reply-To: <29e404f5-6c6f-e1e1-59f6-9738228cc150@bitsavers.org>
References: <04174ee7-a7c9-c5d6-631e-1c5cdf451380@dunnington.plus.com>
 <10009718-41f7-f38b-c2da-395ed5a934b5@bitsavers.org>
 <a753a96c-1a1c-ca93-3e3e-9b8249e87c74@dunnington.plus.com>
 <29e404f5-6c6f-e1e1-59f6-9738228cc150@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfoG6ckmEHxomsY5N-5rCAHFgSOiLUCPLMD-K6_-QdZSGg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 9:42 AM Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

>
>
> On 5/4/19 3:00 AM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote:
>
> > Once I can get the machine to stop wailing, that will be useful!
> >
>
> I pulled the frame buffer out of my 2030 and got up as far as the
> monitor on port 0 at 9600. My NVRAM is dead so I'm digging around
> trying to find another DS1287. The machine has an XE1287 in it and
> the battery terminals don't seem to be on the pin 12-13 end like the
> Dallas.
>
> I ordered a DEC BC29 cable to play with the frame buffers on the
> machines that I still have.
>
> Also, looking at the driver code it looks like the keyboard on the 2030
> expects to be XT protocol.
>

When I played with mine years ago, the only thing different about it was
that it had a different device ID than expected. I had to hack FreeBSD of
the era to recognize that keyboard id correctly. Don't know if I ever tried
the opposite way or not.

Warner

From cctalk at emailtoilet.com  Sat May  4 13:21:40 2019
From: cctalk at emailtoilet.com (cctalk at emailtoilet.com)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 11:21:40 -0700
Subject: Old CE manuals
Message-ID: <008001d502a6$38136700$a83a3500$@emailtoilet.com>

Still cleaning out for Nevada move.

 

http://www.myimagecollection.com/cemanuals/

 

Last 2 are interesting. 2075 Processing Unit and some Russian machine
EC4001.  Number sounds familiar from my eBay sojourns.

 

Available for cost of Media Mail shipping. These buggers are heavy.  As last
time, all or nothing. 

 

Donald


From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Sat May  4 13:38:31 2019
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 12:38:31 -0600
Subject: Service for converting CD-ROMs into ISO files?
In-Reply-To: <804F6412-3840-4C62-8526-0D16D1B2E7A6@comcast.net>
References: <20190504045344.809634E77A@mx2.ezwind.net>
 <804F6412-3840-4C62-8526-0D16D1B2E7A6@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4329f3bc-4bf9-2c60-73c1-95c77129fcd2@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 5/4/2019 8:15 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
thought a CD-ROM (data CD) *is* an ISO image.  So I would expect all you 
need to do is make an image copy of the disk.  On Unix systems that's 
trivial, just use the "dd" command to copy /dev/whatever to myfile.iso.
> 
> 	paul

Window users rejoice (until the next verion breaks something).
http://www.chrysocome.net/dd



From bobalan at sbcglobal.net  Sat May  4 13:39:34 2019
From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 11:39:34 -0700
Subject: Old CE manuals
In-Reply-To: <008001d502a6$38136700$a83a3500$@emailtoilet.com>
References: <008001d502a6$38136700$a83a3500$@emailtoilet.com>
Message-ID: <55cdee88-1392-de66-e9c5-2e8712a02cce@sbcglobal.net>

On 5/4/2019 11:21 AM, Donald via cctalk wrote:
> Still cleaning out for Nevada move.
>
>   
>
> http://www.myimagecollection.com/cemanuals/
>
>   
>
> Last 2 are interesting. 2075 Processing Unit and some Russian machine
> EC4001.  Number sounds familiar from my eBay sojourns.
>
>   
>
> Available for cost of Media Mail shipping. These buggers are heavy.  As last
> time, all or nothing.
>
>   
>
> Donald

I'll take them.

Bob

-- 
Vintage computers and electronics
www.dvq.com
www.tekmuseum.com
www.decmuseum.org


From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Sat May  4 14:17:24 2019
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 15:17:24 -0400
Subject: Old CE manuals
In-Reply-To: <008001d502a6$38136700$a83a3500$@emailtoilet.com>
References: <008001d502a6$38136700$a83a3500$@emailtoilet.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+de_AchCc8ceh=CTJ=UksV1n=sHzntndLKDaR5P9brX7LA@mail.gmail.com>

Perhaps bitsavers should have first crack.

--
Will

On May 4, 2019 2:21 PM, "Donald via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Still cleaning out for Nevada move.
>
>
>
> http://www.myimagecollection.com/cemanuals/
>
>
>
> Last 2 are interesting. 2075 Processing Unit and some Russian machine
> EC4001.  Number sounds familiar from my eBay sojourns.
>
>
>
> Available for cost of Media Mail shipping. These buggers are heavy.  As
> last
> time, all or nothing.
>
>
>
> Donald
>
>

From aek at bitsavers.org  Sat May  4 14:29:23 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 12:29:23 -0700
Subject: Old CE manuals
In-Reply-To: <CANij+de_AchCc8ceh=CTJ=UksV1n=sHzntndLKDaR5P9brX7LA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <008001d502a6$38136700$a83a3500$@emailtoilet.com>
 <CANij+de_AchCc8ceh=CTJ=UksV1n=sHzntndLKDaR5P9brX7LA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47a50127-b023-f42c-dfd6-0b570973e4eb@bitsavers.org>

I'm assuming Bob will get them to me eventually

On 5/4/19 12:17 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:
> Perhaps bitsavers should have first crack.
> 
> --
> Will
> 
> On May 4, 2019 2:21 PM, "Donald via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
>> Still cleaning out for Nevada move.
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.myimagecollection.com/cemanuals/
>>
>>
>>
>> Last 2 are interesting. 2075 Processing Unit and some Russian machine
>> EC4001.  Number sounds familiar from my eBay sojourns.
>>
>>
>>
>> Available for cost of Media Mail shipping. These buggers are heavy.  As
>> last
>> time, all or nothing.
>>
>>
>>
>> Donald
>>
>>


From cctalk at emailtoilet.com  Sat May  4 14:28:16 2019
From: cctalk at emailtoilet.com (cctalk at emailtoilet.com)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 12:28:16 -0700
Subject: Old CE manuals
Message-ID: <000c01d502af$86191220$924b3660$@emailtoilet.com>

I sent a mail to Al at aek at bitsavers.org on 4/11 regarding a bunch of IBM
manuals.

 

http://www.myimagecollection.com/manuals/

 

Never heard back so they went into the trash. These manuals are decades
older so I don't want to trash them.

 

If Al jumps in here, fine. He can get them.  Otherwise, based on timing, Bob
gets them.

 

Donald


From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Sat May  4 14:38:03 2019
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 15:38:03 -0400
Subject: Old CE manuals
In-Reply-To: <000c01d502af$86191220$924b3660$@emailtoilet.com>
References: <000c01d502af$86191220$924b3660$@emailtoilet.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+dfSp1dUiwYKzjy7bHVFdbyNO4kFEKZRPRHKhbZBbbmHdQ@mail.gmail.com>

Bob's a good home, too.

--
Will

On May 4, 2019 3:28 PM, "Donald via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I sent a mail to Al at aek at bitsavers.org on 4/11 regarding a bunch of IBM
> manuals.
>
>
>
> http://www.myimagecollection.com/manuals/
>
>
>
> Never heard back so they went into the trash. These manuals are decades
> older so I don't want to trash them.
>
>
>
> If Al jumps in here, fine. He can get them.  Otherwise, based on timing,
> Bob
> gets them.
>
>
>
> Donald
>
>

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Sat May  4 15:36:34 2019
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 21:36:34 +0100
Subject: Service for converting CD-ROMs into ISO files?
In-Reply-To: <4329f3bc-4bf9-2c60-73c1-95c77129fcd2@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <20190504045344.809634E77A@mx2.ezwind.net>
 <804F6412-3840-4C62-8526-0D16D1B2E7A6@comcast.net>
 <4329f3bc-4bf9-2c60-73c1-95c77129fcd2@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <02ae01d502b9$10df1b80$329d5280$@gmail.com>

Paul,
VAX CD-ROMS generally are not ISO. ISO implies the ISO9660 file system, but many VAX CD ROMS are in native VMS Files-11 format.
Some Windows utilities don't handle these so you need third party software to create an image of these CD's.
Generally it has a .iso extension but as the content is not ISO9660 you can't mount it on Windows or Linux.

There a couple of utilities that will convert arbitrary files to image files. 
I tend to use CD Burner XP 

https://cdburnerxp.se/en/download

but you need to click "More download options" and use the "without install core" versions....

Dave

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of ben via cctalk
> Sent: 04 May 2019 19:39
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Service for converting CD-ROMs into ISO files?
> 
> On 5/4/2019 8:15 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
> thought a CD-ROM (data CD) *is* an ISO image.  So I would expect all you
> need to do is make an image copy of the disk.  On Unix systems that's trivial,
> just use the "dd" command to copy /dev/whatever to myfile.iso.
> >
> > 	paul
> 
> Window users rejoice (until the next verion breaks something).
> http://www.chrysocome.net/dd
> 



From elson at pico-systems.com  Sat May  4 15:48:25 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Sat, 04 May 2019 15:48:25 -0500
Subject: Old CE manuals
In-Reply-To: <008001d502a6$38136700$a83a3500$@emailtoilet.com>
References: <008001d502a6$38136700$a83a3500$@emailtoilet.com>
Message-ID: <5CCDFA99.5050904@pico-systems.com>

On 05/04/2019 01:21 PM, Donald via cctalk wrote:
> Still cleaning out for Nevada move.
>
>   
>
> http://www.myimagecollection.com/cemanuals/
>
>   
>
> Last 2 are interesting. 2075 Processing Unit and some Russian machine
> EC4001.  Number sounds familiar from my eBay sojourns.
>
>   
>
> Available for cost of Media Mail shipping. These buggers are heavy.  As last
> time, all or nothing.
>
>
WOW, the 2075 is the 360/75, one of the higher-end models.  
The 2821 is the unit record controller (card read/punch and 
printer), I'm pretty sure bitsavers has that.  The 4341 is 
one of the office credenza style CPUs, and was a VERY good 
deal in terms of price/performance.

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Sat May  4 15:51:26 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Sat, 04 May 2019 15:51:26 -0500
Subject: Service for converting CD-ROMs into ISO files?
In-Reply-To: <4329f3bc-4bf9-2c60-73c1-95c77129fcd2@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <20190504045344.809634E77A@mx2.ezwind.net>
 <804F6412-3840-4C62-8526-0D16D1B2E7A6@comcast.net>
 <4329f3bc-4bf9-2c60-73c1-95c77129fcd2@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <5CCDFB4E.6020108@pico-systems.com>

On 05/04/2019 01:38 PM, ben via cctalk wrote:
> On 5/4/2019 8:15 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
> thought a CD-ROM (data CD) *is* an ISO image.  So I would 
> expect all you need to do is make an image copy of the 
> disk.  On Unix systems that's trivial, just use the "dd" 
> command to copy /dev/whatever to myfile.iso.
Or, better than that, just put it in just about any computer 
and read the files, copy to a directory on hard drive, etc.  
The ISO-9660 format was designed to be OS-agnostic, so you 
can read the files on any OS.

Jon

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Sat May  4 16:03:03 2019
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 17:03:03 -0400
Subject: Old CE manuals
In-Reply-To: <5CCDFA99.5050904@pico-systems.com>
References: <008001d502a6$38136700$a83a3500$@emailtoilet.com>
 <5CCDFA99.5050904@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+dd7u+_Mj5DPYA1h4QJD11u9kp_bSVovYqdkprpnY8DTXw@mail.gmail.com>

> WOW, the 2075 is the 360/75, one of the higher-end models.
> The 2821 is the unit record controller (card read/punch and
> printer), I'm pretty sure bitsavers has that.

I have complete sets for my three 2821 controllers (one being a late
production hybrid SLT type), just in case.

--
Will

From a.carlini at ntlworld.com  Sat May  4 17:35:57 2019
From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 23:35:57 +0100
Subject: Service for converting CD-ROMs into ISO files?
In-Reply-To: <02ae01d502b9$10df1b80$329d5280$@gmail.com>
References: <20190504045344.809634E77A@mx2.ezwind.net>
 <804F6412-3840-4C62-8526-0D16D1B2E7A6@comcast.net>
 <4329f3bc-4bf9-2c60-73c1-95c77129fcd2@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <02ae01d502b9$10df1b80$329d5280$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7c1aeb44-6066-646d-4f0e-5f303816205b@ntlworld.com>

On 04/05/2019 21:36, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote:
> Paul,
> VAX CD-ROMS generally are not ISO. ISO implies the ISO9660 file system, but many VAX CD ROMS are in native VMS Files-11 format.
> Some Windows utilities don't handle these so you need third party software to create an image of these CD's.
> Generally it has a .iso extension but as the content is not ISO9660 you can't mount it on Windows or Linux.
>
> There a couple of utilities that will convert arbitrary files to image files.
> I tend to use CD Burner XP
>
> https://cdburnerxp.se/en/download
>
> but you need to click "More download options" and use the "without install core" versions....
>
> Dave


VMS CDs are indeed in ODS-2 format. Windows certainly won't mount them 
but many of the imaging utilities I used to

use under windows would happily produce a valid image that could then be 
burnt to CD-R and used in a VAX (so I'm

fairly sure they did a proper, correct image copy). Nero and CDburnerXP 
come to mind.


FWIW it is possible to produce a CD that can be mounted as ISO9660 on 
(say) Windows but also presents the same data

as an ODS-2 filesystem on VAX (or Alpha). I even built one or two such 
images back in the day.


Antonio



-- 
Antonio Carlini
antonio at acarlini.com


From bobalan at sbcglobal.net  Sat May  4 18:01:04 2019
From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 16:01:04 -0700
Subject: Old CE manuals
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dfSp1dUiwYKzjy7bHVFdbyNO4kFEKZRPRHKhbZBbbmHdQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000c01d502af$86191220$924b3660$@emailtoilet.com>
 <CANij+dfSp1dUiwYKzjy7bHVFdbyNO4kFEKZRPRHKhbZBbbmHdQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <af76018e-84fe-510f-6f9a-4a79d029cb72@sbcglobal.net>

Yes, Al will end up with them after I play with them.

Bob

On 5/4/2019 12:38 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:
> Bob's a good home, too.
>
> --
> Will
>
> On May 4, 2019 3:28 PM, "Donald via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> I sent a mail to Al at aek at bitsavers.org on 4/11 regarding a bunch of IBM
>> manuals.
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.myimagecollection.com/manuals/
>>
>>
>>
>> Never heard back so they went into the trash. These manuals are decades
>> older so I don't want to trash them.
>>
>>
>>
>> If Al jumps in here, fine. He can get them.  Otherwise, based on timing,
>> Bob
>> gets them.
>>
>>
>>
>> Donald
>>
>>


-- 
Vintage computers and electronics
www.dvq.com
www.tekmuseum.com
www.decmuseum.org


From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Sat May  4 20:13:29 2019
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 19:13:29 -0600
Subject: Old CE manuals - bit savers books
In-Reply-To: <af76018e-84fe-510f-6f9a-4a79d029cb72@sbcglobal.net>
References: <000c01d502af$86191220$924b3660$@emailtoilet.com>
 <CANij+dfSp1dUiwYKzjy7bHVFdbyNO4kFEKZRPRHKhbZBbbmHdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <af76018e-84fe-510f-6f9a-4a79d029cb72@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <13cf0035-4afa-dc87-bcb7-8fde137cedaf@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 5/4/2019 5:01 PM, Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk wrote:
> Yes, Al will end up with them after I play with them.
> 
> Bob
Just don't PAPER train your dog now. :)
I was thinking it would be nice if bitsavers could do books.
I alot of computer books get changed every edition, so
it would be nice to see the 1st edition archived for historial reading.
The classic book "C Programing language" by K&R is a good example.
For the few brave restoring early unix https://github.com/DoctorWkt
Ben.


From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net  Sat May  4 20:53:52 2019
From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 20:53:52 -0500
Subject: Looking for Silent 700 printhead
Message-ID: <E15A17094BBA4914B2B41F0F18105CFD@CharlesDellLap>

I have two Silent 700 terminals (model 745) that I bought quite a few years 
ago (nonworking). Couldn't find a schematic. Last week I just happened to 
search for one - and found a complete service manual with theory of 
operation and full schematics! So I got them on the workbench.

The more worn one wouldn't print anything on the paper but was otherwise 
working. I found that the nylon printhead pressure adjustment wheel had 
split and fallen off the solenoid shaft into the case, along with the 
pressure spring. Then it would print, but I promptly discovered that the 
printhead has several "dots" missing in a pattern that could not be 
accounted for by the driver circuitry. I confirmed it by swapping the 
printhead from the other one, and now it prints perfectly. So at least I 
have one working now :)

The second one in half-duplex mode will only beep (Ctrl-G), CR and LF in 
half-duplex mode, so I know the keyboard is alive and there is power.
But it otherwise won't move the carriage forwards (including space), or 
print any characters at all.

Before I go to the trouble of diagnosis and repair, does anyone have a good 
printhead, or know where I can find one?
No point in fixing it if the characters won't be printing properly when I'm 
done...

thanks
Charles


From silent700 at gmail.com  Sat May  4 20:59:46 2019
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 20:59:46 -0500
Subject: VCF Southeast Photos
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCGSKut=iKc+eOxSOadGO7EwJ2Oejw5Je3ivYd9iRydZKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEfH1SGPcPXubpBYZSzF4D10Qfp8dbPFpDJqffT9xAkYGb9Y3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <91bzho49bw4.fsf@spline.cs.nott.ac.uk>
 <CAMTenCGSKut=iKc+eOxSOadGO7EwJ2Oejw5Je3ivYd9iRydZKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SFdThtvSBZUpT-sQ+DPiLmp+=OytRBNhhvY75DmEy=k0w@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 3, 2019, 06:21 Liam Proven via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

>
> It looks to me like an Apple "live photo".
>

Google/Android's version of the same. In a couple cases (like the CM's LED
panels) I used it intentionally to capture motion. In others, I had
forgotten to shut it off :(

I can/should go back and save stills out of the motion clips for those
where I didn't intend to use it.

j

>

From silent700 at gmail.com  Sat May  4 21:57:56 2019
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 21:57:56 -0500
Subject: Hayes Transet Manual and Software
In-Reply-To: <CAEfH1SHVOuuto3ZBeqKoPorNF+Q6mnypj+pRd8OnuHOzUmvu9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEfH1SHVOuuto3ZBeqKoPorNF+Q6mnypj+pRd8OnuHOzUmvu9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SHAZREJ-6b6WfKFP6RP_tyj=bNy4fJxSyZSv7Mt7FV2yg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 23:43 Jason T <silent700 at gmail.com> wrote:

> One of my few remaining Holy Grail items, I got a Hayes Transet 1000
> this week.  My three-part Hayes stack is now complete.
>

Another Transet just sold on eBay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/382925076475

And this one has the 5.25" PC software disk that mine did not.  If anyone
here won the item, please make an effort to image the disk.

Interesting that the still rare but more common than the Transet
Chronograph, from the same seller, got over $100 more.

j

>

From pdp11 at saccade.com  Sat May  4 10:04:41 2019
From: pdp11 at saccade.com (J. Peterson)
Date: Sat, 04 May 2019 08:04:41 -0700
Subject: Service for converting CD-ROMs into ISO files?
In-Reply-To: <804F6412-3840-4C62-8526-0D16D1B2E7A6@comcast.net>
References: <20190504045344.809634E77A@mx2.ezwind.net>
 <804F6412-3840-4C62-8526-0D16D1B2E7A6@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20190504150532.8D35827378@mx1.ezwind.net>

Hi Paul,

 > So I would expect all you need to do is make an image copy of the disk.

I'm trying to avoid the actual task of loading the CD, waiting for 
the computer to read all the bits, eject the CD, rename the file, 
load the next CD, etc.

I want to send a stack of disks someplace, have somebody else do that 
3-4 dozen times, and send the disks backs with a thumb drive 
containing all the ISO files.

Thanks,
jp



> > On May 4, 2019, at 12:54 AM, J. Peterson via cctalk 
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I have a stack of a few dozen CD-ROM disks with various files 
> (old software, backup files, photos). I'm willing to pay a 
> reasonable rate to have somebody read each of these in, convert 
> them to .ISO files or some other reasonable format, and either make 
> them downloadable or put them on a thumb drive.
> >
> > Does anybody know of such a service? I can find lots of services 
> for converting  audio CD's into MP3 files, but nothing that 
> specifically handles data CD-ROMs.
> >
> > Any leads most appreciated. Please reply directly, as I don't 
> often check this list.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > jp
>
>I thought a CD-ROM (data CD) *is* an ISO image.  So I would expect 
>all you need to do is make an image copy of the disk.  On Unix 
>systems that's trivial, just use the "dd" command to copy 
>/dev/whatever to myfile.iso.
>
>         paul


From pdp11 at saccade.com  Sat May  4 10:04:41 2019
From: pdp11 at saccade.com (J. Peterson)
Date: Sat, 04 May 2019 08:04:41 -0700
Subject: Service for converting CD-ROMs into ISO files?
In-Reply-To: <804F6412-3840-4C62-8526-0D16D1B2E7A6@comcast.net>
References: <20190504045344.809634E77A@mx2.ezwind.net>
 <804F6412-3840-4C62-8526-0D16D1B2E7A6@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20190504150532.DF9054E7B2@mx2.ezwind.net>

Hi Paul,

 > So I would expect all you need to do is make an image copy of the disk.

I'm trying to avoid the actual task of loading the CD, waiting for 
the computer to read all the bits, eject the CD, rename the file, 
load the next CD, etc.

I want to send a stack of disks someplace, have somebody else do that 
3-4 dozen times, and send the disks backs with a thumb drive 
containing all the ISO files.

Thanks,
jp



> > On May 4, 2019, at 12:54 AM, J. Peterson via cctalk 
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I have a stack of a few dozen CD-ROM disks with various files 
> (old software, backup files, photos). I'm willing to pay a 
> reasonable rate to have somebody read each of these in, convert 
> them to .ISO files or some other reasonable format, and either make 
> them downloadable or put them on a thumb drive.
> >
> > Does anybody know of such a service? I can find lots of services 
> for converting  audio CD's into MP3 files, but nothing that 
> specifically handles data CD-ROMs.
> >
> > Any leads most appreciated. Please reply directly, as I don't 
> often check this list.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > jp
>
>I thought a CD-ROM (data CD) *is* an ISO image.  So I would expect 
>all you need to do is make an image copy of the disk.  On Unix 
>systems that's trivial, just use the "dd" command to copy 
>/dev/whatever to myfile.iso.
>
>         paul


From dennis.grevenstein at gmail.com  Sat May  4 12:29:45 2019
From: dennis.grevenstein at gmail.com (Dennis Grevenstein)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 19:29:45 +0200
Subject: RS2030 MIPS workstation
Message-ID: <FACE0BDC-29BF-4EC1-9B58-AD3C3948BD7B@gmail.com>

Hi,

On 5/3/19 3:22 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote:
> Anyone know much about early MIPS workstations?  I'm trying to get a
> MIPS RS2030 to boot, without much luck so far.  It  goes through the
> selftest but stops with the internal LED display at "5" accompanied by
> a continuous beep. 
> 
> Known problems: 
> 
> - The Dallas DS1287 battery is flat; I can hack a 3V lithium onto that.
> I assume it should still work to some extent 
> even if the contents are lost? 

I have the same problem with a cloned MIPS machine, a Sumitomo
Sumistation SP300. The biggest problem with my machine is that the
NVRAM holds the ethernet address. If it goes flat, there seems to be
no way to reprogram the NVRAM. If you find any solution for this,
please tell me.
Aside from the now broken ethernet, the machine works fine. It?s a
25MHz R3000 with 32MB RAM. The box runs SEIUX, something like
Risc/os 4 in SVR3 mode with extra japanese localization, but adapted
to the hardware.

Some people said that some of the old MIPS machines used a M48T02
NVRAM and that you could plug the NVRAM in a SPARCstation to restore
the ethernet address. So far, I have found no mentioning of the DS1287.
A special problem with my machine is that most parts are soldered,
including the NVRAM.

Dennis

From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com  Sun May  5 03:41:59 2019
From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham)
Date: Sun, 5 May 2019 09:41:59 +0100
Subject: Hayes Transet Manual and Software
In-Reply-To: <CAEfH1SHAZREJ-6b6WfKFP6RP_tyj=bNy4fJxSyZSv7Mt7FV2yg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEfH1SHVOuuto3ZBeqKoPorNF+Q6mnypj+pRd8OnuHOzUmvu9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEfH1SHAZREJ-6b6WfKFP6RP_tyj=bNy4fJxSyZSv7Mt7FV2yg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <361BB97A-C526-4724-9B1E-D1BB3A9C4DB8@gmail.com>


> On 5 May 2019, at 03:57, Jason T via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 23:43 Jason T <silent700 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> One of my few remaining Holy Grail items, I got a Hayes Transet 1000
>> this week.  My three-part Hayes stack is now complete.
>> 
> 
> Another Transet just sold on eBay:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/382925076475
> 
> And this one has the 5.25" PC software disk that mine did not.  If anyone
> here won the item, please make an effort to image the disk.
> 
> Interesting that the still rare but more common than the Transet
> Chronograph, from the same seller, got over $100 more.
>> 

I read that as ?trainset? and got derailed temporarily.

-- 
adrian/witchy
Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection?
t: @binarydinosaurs    f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs
w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk





From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Sun May  5 05:30:49 2019
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Sun, 5 May 2019 11:30:49 +0100
Subject: Service for converting CD-ROMs into ISO files?
In-Reply-To: <20190504150532.DF9054E7B2@mx2.ezwind.net>
References: <20190504045344.809634E77A@mx2.ezwind.net>
 <804F6412-3840-4C62-8526-0D16D1B2E7A6@comcast.net>
 <20190504150532.DF9054E7B2@mx2.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <006c01d5032d$9c201ea0$d4605be0$@gmail.com>

Paul,

I assumed you wanted some one else to do the work! 
I suspect that if these are commercial CDs you will run into issues with
Copyright. 
 Commercial services that do Photos to CD etc. will generally want to be
assured that you own the copyright of the material they are copying.
 If you turn up with a pile of commercial CDs that say "COPYRIGHT xyz
corperation" or are even commercial CDs they may not  be happy.
 I did find one company in the UK who offer this service:-

https://www.ripcaster.co.uk/node/1268

who seem to have the ability to do this in bulk with automated machinery...

Dave

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of J. Peterson via
> cctalk
> Sent: 04 May 2019 16:05
> To: Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net>; General Discussion: On-Topic
> and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>; General Discussion: On-Topic
> and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Service for converting CD-ROMs into ISO files?
> 
> Hi Paul,
> 
>  > So I would expect all you need to do is make an image copy of the disk.
> 
> I'm trying to avoid the actual task of loading the CD, waiting for the
computer
> to read all the bits, eject the CD, rename the file, load the next CD,
etc.
> 
> I want to send a stack of disks someplace, have somebody else do that
> 3-4 dozen times, and send the disks backs with a thumb drive containing
all
> the ISO files.
> 
> Thanks,
> jp
> 
> 
> 
> > > On May 4, 2019, at 12:54 AM, J. Peterson via cctalk
> > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I have a stack of a few dozen CD-ROM disks with various files
> > (old software, backup files, photos). I'm willing to pay a reasonable
> > rate to have somebody read each of these in, convert them to .ISO
> > files or some other reasonable format, and either make them
> > downloadable or put them on a thumb drive.
> > >
> > > Does anybody know of such a service? I can find lots of services
> > for converting  audio CD's into MP3 files, but nothing that
> > specifically handles data CD-ROMs.
> > >
> > > Any leads most appreciated. Please reply directly, as I don't
> > often check this list.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > jp
> >
> >I thought a CD-ROM (data CD) *is* an ISO image.  So I would expect all
> >you need to do is make an image copy of the disk.  On Unix systems
> >that's trivial, just use the "dd" command to copy /dev/whatever to
> >myfile.iso.
> >
> >         paul



From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Sun May  5 08:14:40 2019
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 5 May 2019 14:14:40 +0100
Subject: Service for converting CD-ROMs into ISO files?
In-Reply-To: <02ae01d502b9$10df1b80$329d5280$@gmail.com>
References: <20190504045344.809634E77A@mx2.ezwind.net>
 <804F6412-3840-4C62-8526-0D16D1B2E7A6@comcast.net>
 <4329f3bc-4bf9-2c60-73c1-95c77129fcd2@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <02ae01d502b9$10df1b80$329d5280$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47abe23c-2973-2a7c-edea-5aba60f59ded@dunnington.plus.com>

On 04/05/2019 21:36, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote:
> Paul,
> VAX CD-ROMS generally are not ISO. ISO implies the ISO9660 file system, but many VAX CD ROMS are in native VMS Files-11 format.
> Some Windows utilities don't handle these so you need third party software to create an image of these CD's.
> Generally it has a .iso extension but as the content is not ISO9660 you can't mount it on Windows or Linux.

Indeed, and the same is true of IRIX install CDs, which have an EFS 
filesystem.

-- 
Pete
Pete Turnbull

From rtomek at ceti.pl  Sun May  5 08:37:54 2019
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Sun, 5 May 2019 15:37:54 +0200
Subject: Service for converting CD-ROMs into ISO files?
In-Reply-To: <006c01d5032d$9c201ea0$d4605be0$@gmail.com>
References: <20190504045344.809634E77A@mx2.ezwind.net>
 <804F6412-3840-4C62-8526-0D16D1B2E7A6@comcast.net>
 <20190504150532.DF9054E7B2@mx2.ezwind.net>
 <006c01d5032d$9c201ea0$d4605be0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190505133754.GA20273@tau1.ceti.pl>

On Sun, May 05, 2019 at 11:30:49AM +0100, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote:
> Paul,
> 
> I assumed you wanted some one else to do the work! 
> I suspect that if these are commercial CDs you will run into issues with
> Copyright. 
>  Commercial services that do Photos to CD etc. will generally want to be
> assured that you own the copyright of the material they are copying.
>  If you turn up with a pile of commercial CDs that say "COPYRIGHT xyz
> corperation" or are even commercial CDs they may not  be happy.

This.

And if the content is of any importance, I would rather do the job
with my own hand and not trust that some folks I had not seen would do
it without scratching and perhaps making a copy for themselves. You
know, just in case CDs dissapear somewhere in postal transit. And
maybe store it in the cloud because cheaper.

JP, you did not mentioned the number. "Few dozens", so let's assume
60. This thread lasts for three days and will not stop so soon. The
number of CDs to scan per day is about twenty today - and is going to
drop. Scanning ten per day, starting on May the 3rd, you would
probably be done with it before this thread comes to a halt.

Just MHO.

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun May  5 11:40:58 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 5 May 2019 09:40:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Service for converting CD-ROMs into ISO files?
In-Reply-To: <20190504150532.8D35827378@mx1.ezwind.net>
References: <20190504045344.809634E77A@mx2.ezwind.net>
 <804F6412-3840-4C62-8526-0D16D1B2E7A6@comcast.net>
 <20190504150532.8D35827378@mx1.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905050930280.20513@shell.lmi.net>

>> So I would expect all you need to do is make an image copy of the disk.

On Sat, 4 May 2019, J. Peterson via cctalk wrote:
> I'm trying to avoid the actual task of loading the CD, waiting for the 
> computer to read all the bits, eject the CD, rename the file, load the next 
> CD, etc.
> I want to send a stack of disks someplace, have somebody else do that 3-4 
> dozen times, and send the disks backs with a thumb drive containing all the 
> ISO files.

3-4 dozen??!?
That does not sound amenable to find a service to send them to!

That sounds like "hire the neighbor's kid".
College kids will do anything for minimum wage.
While the disk is copying, s/he/it can also type in whatever metadata is 
on the labels into a spreadsheet program for making a database.



From aek at bitsavers.org  Sun May  5 12:12:25 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sun, 5 May 2019 10:12:25 -0700
Subject: Old CE manuals - bit savers books
In-Reply-To: <13cf0035-4afa-dc87-bcb7-8fde137cedaf@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <000c01d502af$86191220$924b3660$@emailtoilet.com>
 <CANij+dfSp1dUiwYKzjy7bHVFdbyNO4kFEKZRPRHKhbZBbbmHdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <af76018e-84fe-510f-6f9a-4a79d029cb72@sbcglobal.net>
 <13cf0035-4afa-dc87-bcb7-8fde137cedaf@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <f85059ae-ef0f-0fbb-2311-8e9cda9cf546@bitsavers.org>



On 5/4/19 6:13 PM, ben via cctalk wrote:

> I was thinking it would be nice if bitsavers could do books.

The Internet Archive is welcome to joust at that lightning rod.




From imp at bsdimp.com  Sun May  5 12:28:13 2019
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Sun, 5 May 2019 11:28:13 -0600
Subject: Service for converting CD-ROMs into ISO files?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905050930280.20513@shell.lmi.net>
References: <20190504045344.809634E77A@mx2.ezwind.net>
 <804F6412-3840-4C62-8526-0D16D1B2E7A6@comcast.net>
 <20190504150532.8D35827378@mx1.ezwind.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905050930280.20513@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfrEgr-V=fjKZEZ19X=APNnQ_PjNLB8U0d+mnrG9zrPJ8A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 5, 2019, 10:41 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> >> So I would expect all you need to do is make an image copy of the disk.
>
> On Sat, 4 May 2019, J. Peterson via cctalk wrote:
> > I'm trying to avoid the actual task of loading the CD, waiting for the
> > computer to read all the bits, eject the CD, rename the file, load the
> next
> > CD, etc.
> > I want to send a stack of disks someplace, have somebody else do that
> 3-4
> > dozen times, and send the disks backs with a thumb drive containing all
> the
> > ISO files.
>
> 3-4 dozen??!?
> That does not sound amenable to find a service to send them to!
>
> That sounds like "hire the neighbor's kid".
> College kids will do anything for minimum wage.
> While the disk is copying, s/he/it can also type in whatever metadata is
> on the labels into a spreadsheet program for making a database.
>

In the past, when I needed to read 300 floppies, I wrote a script to read
to a file. It printed a number and I made a tiny label with that number and
put it on the diskette. Old then photograph the interesting ones. The
script tossed me into an editor and I transcribed the label. The script
also ran tools to try to list the dos or cpm files, saving the results. I
had to hit return to start the next one.  So I had two piles of diskettes
and I'd transfer them one to the other after reading. I'd change them
between meetings or when I thought about it.  It took weeks to get through
the 300, but there was little time that wasn't otherwise wasted devoted to
this....

Warner

>

From aek at bitsavers.org  Sun May  5 12:39:13 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sun, 5 May 2019 10:39:13 -0700
Subject: Service for converting CD-ROMs into ISO files?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905050930280.20513@shell.lmi.net>
References: <20190504045344.809634E77A@mx2.ezwind.net>
 <804F6412-3840-4C62-8526-0D16D1B2E7A6@comcast.net>
 <20190504150532.8D35827378@mx1.ezwind.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905050930280.20513@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <4b6be989-257e-62ec-a47e-9638a6a148b3@bitsavers.org>



On 5/5/19 9:40 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> While the disk is copying, s/he/it can also type in whatever metadata is on the labels

How much time will it take for s/he/it to learn how to CORRECTLY transcribe a label?

I gave up and just take a picture of any media I'm recovering, since the label itself
has provenance value. For example it is important to know if the label is original or
a hand-written copy.


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun May  5 12:55:06 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 5 May 2019 10:55:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Service for converting CD-ROMs into ISO files?
In-Reply-To: <4b6be989-257e-62ec-a47e-9638a6a148b3@bitsavers.org>
References: <20190504045344.809634E77A@mx2.ezwind.net>
 <804F6412-3840-4C62-8526-0D16D1B2E7A6@comcast.net>
 <20190504150532.8D35827378@mx1.ezwind.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905050930280.20513@shell.lmi.net>
 <4b6be989-257e-62ec-a47e-9638a6a148b3@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905051048160.20513@shell.lmi.net>

>> While the disk is copying, s/he/it can also type in whatever metadata 
>> is on the labels

On Sun, 5 May 2019, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> How much time will it take for s/he/it to learn how to CORRECTLY transcribe a label?
> I gave up and just take a picture of any media I'm recovering, since the label itself
> has provenance value. For example it is important to know if the label is original or
> a hand-written copy.

. . . and, I certainly would not "send them off for somebody else to do", 
without making those records of what I was sending.

Since that needs to be done, anyway,
it seems to ME to be more work to send out 3-4 dozen, than to do them 
in-house.

From w2hx at w2hx.com  Sun May  5 16:08:57 2019
From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX)
Date: Sun, 5 May 2019 21:08:57 +0000
Subject: Fujitsi 2444AC 9-track tape drive/PDP-11
In-Reply-To: <86e1529b-e105-6710-0a63-732dec57fd8f@sydex.com>
References: <35f6d046002044278c3021672692ec08@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM>
 <4f1fc31d65a94f38a9bfee458f81a92f@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAM2UOwKJg6BVEDpqJfroKqU-0rqgifJk29PdS5mveuzNp=AdWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190502015847.1AC8E1C6B92@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>,
 <86e1529b-e105-6710-0a63-732dec57fd8f@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <1557090537659.81844@w2hx.com>

>>But plain old flat straight ribbon cable in a 10" length will do for the
2444; even at 6250, frequencies aren't much higher than 1MH

Sounds like I might be ok. Except mine are 10 feet not inches! I guess I'll just have to try them out.

Thanks everyone!
________________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 1, 2019 11:00 PM
To: Dennis Boone via cctalk
Subject: Re: Fujitsi 2444AC 9-track tape drive/PDP-11

On 5/1/19 6:58 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote:
>  > I got a great pair of cables for this project.  50 conductor, 50 pin
>  > IDC, 10 feet long.
>
> So the minicomputer vendors in the 80s typically used twisted pair
> ribbon for these things, as in the 1700/50 stuff Glen was talking
> about.  I don't know how long a cable would need to be for that to be
> critical.

Yup--good old Spectra-Strip Twist 'N' Flat shown here:

http://www.spectra-strip.com/ecpartsearch3.cfm?partID=361&cfid=109257980&cftoken=e6f2501d4301db0d-A0328E4C-C60A-DD93-BF83E6D9C0B9DA8A


From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Sun May  5 17:20:50 2019
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Sun, 5 May 2019 16:20:50 -0600
Subject: Old CE manuals - bit savers books
In-Reply-To: <f85059ae-ef0f-0fbb-2311-8e9cda9cf546@bitsavers.org>
References: <000c01d502af$86191220$924b3660$@emailtoilet.com>
 <CANij+dfSp1dUiwYKzjy7bHVFdbyNO4kFEKZRPRHKhbZBbbmHdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <af76018e-84fe-510f-6f9a-4a79d029cb72@sbcglobal.net>
 <13cf0035-4afa-dc87-bcb7-8fde137cedaf@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <f85059ae-ef0f-0fbb-2311-8e9cda9cf546@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <7fc67007-8e80-82b5-5278-969684aed45a@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 5/5/2019 11:12 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
> On 5/4/19 6:13 PM, ben via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> I was thinking it would be nice if bitsavers could do books.
> 
> The Internet Archive is welcome to joust at that lightning rod.

Well I found the 1st edition, I just wanted to check some things
about C in that time frame.
Ben.



From raywjewhurst at gmail.com  Mon May  6 10:55:21 2019
From: raywjewhurst at gmail.com (Ray Jewhurst)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 11:55:21 -0400
Subject: VMS versions
Message-ID: <CAMFEAABGDY+oJd+_8KpwKN8MfF7BZHN42UELpVwjGZzK8e7ybg@mail.gmail.com>

Does anyone know if there is a comprehensive list of changes from version
to version for VMS? Wikipedia's list only shows the models that were
introduced and I am more interested in the evolution of features. If anyone
knows a website that shows this it would be much appreciated.

Thanks

Ray

From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon May  6 11:19:25 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 09:19:25 -0700
Subject: 1A ESS track writer
Message-ID: <dd7586ed-4b99-6e38-ac74-069c83e9e290@bitsavers.org>

https://www.ebay.com/itm/223506026636

If anyone happens to have a (probably) late model 1A ESS laying around.
Note the late 80's date stamps.



From healyzh at avanthar.com  Mon May  6 11:56:17 2019
From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 09:56:17 -0700
Subject: VMS versions
In-Reply-To: <CAMFEAABGDY+oJd+_8KpwKN8MfF7BZHN42UELpVwjGZzK8e7ybg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMFEAABGDY+oJd+_8KpwKN8MfF7BZHN42UELpVwjGZzK8e7ybg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <40E8DFF7-5C6D-458F-96F3-30DF193372C6@avanthar.com>


> On May 6, 2019, at 8:55 AM, Ray Jewhurst via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know if there is a comprehensive list of changes from version
> to version for VMS? Wikipedia's list only shows the models that were
> introduced and I am more interested in the evolution of features. If anyone
> knows a website that shows this it would be much appreciated.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Ray

You?d need the release notes from each release.  Which in turn means having access to those.  I?m not sure how many of them are available online, or where they?d be found.  It sounds like a good project, for someone that has the time.  It would definitely be interesting to see.  For that matter, even a collection of all the release notes would be interesting.

Zane




From raywjewhurst at gmail.com  Mon May  6 11:59:14 2019
From: raywjewhurst at gmail.com (Ray Jewhurst)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 12:59:14 -0400
Subject: VMS versions
In-Reply-To: <40E8DFF7-5C6D-458F-96F3-30DF193372C6@avanthar.com>
References: <CAMFEAABGDY+oJd+_8KpwKN8MfF7BZHN42UELpVwjGZzK8e7ybg@mail.gmail.com>
 <40E8DFF7-5C6D-458F-96F3-30DF193372C6@avanthar.com>
Message-ID: <CAMFEAACAToY_GUQE=PO5daY8_6Mx_s_UQ9=bMW+eFqt29WRZFg@mail.gmail.com>

That sounds like fun. Maybe I will try to compile something myself.

On Mon, May 6, 2019, 12:56 PM Zane Healy <healyzh at avanthar.com> wrote:

>
> > On May 6, 2019, at 8:55 AM, Ray Jewhurst via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > Does anyone know if there is a comprehensive list of changes from version
> > to version for VMS? Wikipedia's list only shows the models that were
> > introduced and I am more interested in the evolution of features. If
> anyone
> > knows a website that shows this it would be much appreciated.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Ray
>
> You?d need the release notes from each release.  Which in turn means
> having access to those.  I?m not sure how many of them are available
> online, or where they?d be found.  It sounds like a good project, for
> someone that has the time.  It would definitely be interesting to see.  For
> that matter, even a collection of all the release notes would be
> interesting.
>
> Zane
>
>
>
>

From ian at platinum.net  Mon May  6 12:01:00 2019
From: ian at platinum.net (Ian McLaughlin)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 10:01:00 -0700
Subject: VMS versions
In-Reply-To: <CAMFEAACAToY_GUQE=PO5daY8_6Mx_s_UQ9=bMW+eFqt29WRZFg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMFEAABGDY+oJd+_8KpwKN8MfF7BZHN42UELpVwjGZzK8e7ybg@mail.gmail.com>
 <40E8DFF7-5C6D-458F-96F3-30DF193372C6@avanthar.com>
 <CAMFEAACAToY_GUQE=PO5daY8_6Mx_s_UQ9=bMW+eFqt29WRZFg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <42BD0B4E-4815-4BD4-BB31-2AF11DEDCA08@platinum.net>

If anyone is able to locate any of these documents, I?d be happy to host them at vaxhaven.com <http://vaxhaven.com/> (as well as put up on bitsavers and archive.org <http://archive.org/>)

Ian


> On May 6, 2019, at 9:59 AM, Ray Jewhurst via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> That sounds like fun. Maybe I will try to compile something myself.
> 
> On Mon, May 6, 2019, 12:56 PM Zane Healy <healyzh at avanthar.com> wrote:
> 
>> 
>>> On May 6, 2019, at 8:55 AM, Ray Jewhurst via cctalk <
>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Does anyone know if there is a comprehensive list of changes from version
>>> to version for VMS? Wikipedia's list only shows the models that were
>>> introduced and I am more interested in the evolution of features. If
>> anyone
>>> knows a website that shows this it would be much appreciated.
>>> 
>>> Thanks
>>> 
>>> Ray
>> 
>> You?d need the release notes from each release.  Which in turn means
>> having access to those.  I?m not sure how many of them are available
>> online, or where they?d be found.  It sounds like a good project, for
>> someone that has the time.  It would definitely be interesting to see.  For
>> that matter, even a collection of all the release notes would be
>> interesting.
>> 
>> Zane
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 


From ian at platinum.net  Mon May  6 12:03:38 2019
From: ian at platinum.net (Ian McLaughlin)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 10:03:38 -0700
Subject: VMS versions
In-Reply-To: <42BD0B4E-4815-4BD4-BB31-2AF11DEDCA08@platinum.net>
References: <CAMFEAABGDY+oJd+_8KpwKN8MfF7BZHN42UELpVwjGZzK8e7ybg@mail.gmail.com>
 <40E8DFF7-5C6D-458F-96F3-30DF193372C6@avanthar.com>
 <CAMFEAACAToY_GUQE=PO5daY8_6Mx_s_UQ9=bMW+eFqt29WRZFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <42BD0B4E-4815-4BD4-BB31-2AF11DEDCA08@platinum.net>
Message-ID: <FE439CF9-2861-4E1C-8B6B-280888C55607@platinum.net>

That being said, it appears that I have release notes for VMS 1.5 and VMS 2.0 on the site.  Found here:

http://vaxhaven.com/AA- <http://vaxhaven.com/AA->

Ian


> On May 6, 2019, at 10:01 AM, Ian McLaughlin via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> If anyone is able to locate any of these documents, I?d be happy to host them at vaxhaven.com <http://vaxhaven.com/> (as well as put up on bitsavers and archive.org <http://archive.org/>)
> 
> Ian
> 
> 
>> On May 6, 2019, at 9:59 AM, Ray Jewhurst via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> 
>> That sounds like fun. Maybe I will try to compile something myself.
>> 
>> On Mon, May 6, 2019, 12:56 PM Zane Healy <healyzh at avanthar.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>>> On May 6, 2019, at 8:55 AM, Ray Jewhurst via cctalk <
>>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Does anyone know if there is a comprehensive list of changes from version
>>>> to version for VMS? Wikipedia's list only shows the models that were
>>>> introduced and I am more interested in the evolution of features. If
>>> anyone
>>>> knows a website that shows this it would be much appreciated.
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks
>>>> 
>>>> Ray
>>> 
>>> You?d need the release notes from each release.  Which in turn means
>>> having access to those.  I?m not sure how many of them are available
>>> online, or where they?d be found.  It sounds like a good project, for
>>> someone that has the time.  It would definitely be interesting to see.  For
>>> that matter, even a collection of all the release notes would be
>>> interesting.
>>> 
>>> Zane
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> 
> 


From elson at pico-systems.com  Mon May  6 12:47:38 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Mon, 06 May 2019 12:47:38 -0500
Subject: VMS versions
In-Reply-To: <CAMFEAABGDY+oJd+_8KpwKN8MfF7BZHN42UELpVwjGZzK8e7ybg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMFEAABGDY+oJd+_8KpwKN8MfF7BZHN42UELpVwjGZzK8e7ybg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5CD0733A.7000706@pico-systems.com>

On 05/06/2019 10:55 AM, Ray Jewhurst via cctalk wrote:
> Does anyone know if there is a comprehensive list of changes from version
> to version for VMS? Wikipedia's list only shows the models that were
> introduced and I am more interested in the evolution of features. If anyone
> knows a website that shows this it would be much appreciated.
>
>
Wow!  There were revision notes (is that the correct term?) 
that accompanied each new version, telling the major things 
that had changed.  If you can find the manuals that went 
with the versions, they had this revision info, and then 
notes on how to install or update a system.

Jon

From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon May  6 13:12:23 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 11:12:23 -0700
Subject: VMS versions
In-Reply-To: <5CD0733A.7000706@pico-systems.com>
References: <CAMFEAABGDY+oJd+_8KpwKN8MfF7BZHN42UELpVwjGZzK8e7ybg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5CD0733A.7000706@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <b4bca029-efa4-d4e2-0050-527092648319@bitsavers.org>



On 5/6/19 10:47 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:

> Wow!? There were revision notes (is that the correct term?)
I have AA-LA97C, AA-LB22(A-C) which are the release notes for 5.0 -> 5.4
and the 5.4 SPD. I'll see about getting them on line.


From a.carlini at ntlworld.com  Mon May  6 13:38:20 2019
From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 19:38:20 +0100
Subject: VMS versions
In-Reply-To: <FE439CF9-2861-4E1C-8B6B-280888C55607@platinum.net>
References: <CAMFEAABGDY+oJd+_8KpwKN8MfF7BZHN42UELpVwjGZzK8e7ybg@mail.gmail.com>
 <40E8DFF7-5C6D-458F-96F3-30DF193372C6@avanthar.com>
 <CAMFEAACAToY_GUQE=PO5daY8_6Mx_s_UQ9=bMW+eFqt29WRZFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <42BD0B4E-4815-4BD4-BB31-2AF11DEDCA08@platinum.net>
 <FE439CF9-2861-4E1C-8B6B-280888C55607@platinum.net>
Message-ID: <5edfcdae-15ea-242f-33fe-88c0964fee64@ntlworld.com>

On 06/05/2019 18:03, Ian McLaughlin via cctalk wrote:
> That being said, it appears that I have release notes for VMS 1.5 and VMS 2.0 on the site.  Found here:
>
> http://vaxhaven.com/AA- <http://vaxhaven.com/AA->
>
> Ian

You have 1.6 too: http://vaxhaven.com/images/d/d4/AA-J039A-TE.pdf.


Bitsavers has (at least) release notes for V3.0.


Since V2.0 mentions 1.6 and 1.6 mentions 1.5 and 1.5 mentions 1.01, I 
want to know what happened to 1.2, 1.3 and 1.4!


Antonio


-- 
Antonio Carlini
antonio at acarlini.com


From ian at platinum.net  Mon May  6 13:44:52 2019
From: ian at platinum.net (Ian McLaughlin)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 11:44:52 -0700
Subject: VMS versions
In-Reply-To: <5edfcdae-15ea-242f-33fe-88c0964fee64@ntlworld.com>
References: <CAMFEAABGDY+oJd+_8KpwKN8MfF7BZHN42UELpVwjGZzK8e7ybg@mail.gmail.com>
 <40E8DFF7-5C6D-458F-96F3-30DF193372C6@avanthar.com>
 <CAMFEAACAToY_GUQE=PO5daY8_6Mx_s_UQ9=bMW+eFqt29WRZFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <42BD0B4E-4815-4BD4-BB31-2AF11DEDCA08@platinum.net>
 <FE439CF9-2861-4E1C-8B6B-280888C55607@platinum.net>
 <5edfcdae-15ea-242f-33fe-88c0964fee64@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <4EDD31C2-AD78-427E-A6A8-221D2688EE98@platinum.net>



> On May 6, 2019, at 11:38 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> You have 1.6 too: http://vaxhaven.com/images/d/d4/AA-J039A-TE.pdf.
> 
> 
> Bitsavers has (at least) release notes for V3.0.
> 
> 
> Since V2.0 mentions 1.6 and 1.6 mentions 1.5 and 1.5 mentions 1.01, I want to know what happened to 1.2, 1.3 and 1.4!

Thanks for the pointer for 3.0 - added to vaxhaven.com <http://vaxhaven.com/>.

Ian


From healyzh at avanthar.com  Mon May  6 13:55:22 2019
From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 11:55:22 -0700
Subject: VMS versions
In-Reply-To: <b4bca029-efa4-d4e2-0050-527092648319@bitsavers.org>
References: <CAMFEAABGDY+oJd+_8KpwKN8MfF7BZHN42UELpVwjGZzK8e7ybg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5CD0733A.7000706@pico-systems.com>
 <b4bca029-efa4-d4e2-0050-527092648319@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <6814F94F-B999-4C1A-B603-A799048ED8AF@avanthar.com>


> On May 6, 2019, at 11:12 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 5/6/19 10:47 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> Wow!  There were revision notes (is that the correct term?)
> I have AA-LA97C, AA-LB22(A-C) which are the release notes for 5.0 -> 5.4
> and the 5.4 SPD. I'll see about getting them on line.

In addition to the ?Release Notes? and ?SPD?, there is also the ?New Features" for at least some versions.

HP OpenVMS Version 8.3 - New Features and Documentation Overview (Order Number: BA322-90046)

For VAX/VMS 5.0, 5.2, and 5.3 I know ?New Features? books are the little Grey Paperbacks like the nice Systems Manager book.  I think for v6 and v7 they were the standard sized books, but I can?t easily get to those books right now due to the rack I?m installing. 

Unfortunately the documentation that HPE had online appears to have vanished.  A lot of this should be on Doc CD?s.  It looks like VSI only has the current documentation online, and it?s in PDF form.

https://www.vmssoftware.com/documents_list.html

Zane




From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com  Mon May  6 14:12:19 2019
From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 15:12:19 -0400
Subject: PM2390 Clock and Sector writer
Message-ID: <CAJ2mpAizQrsKHey8Qx5tSgNva5kDKVcRXubS6Ocr+pVHAXG8hg@mail.gmail.com>

Found on eBay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/223506026636

I suppose Kyroflux and other open-source hardware/software combos can do
the same thing?
--
Anders Nelson

+1 (517) 775-6129

www.erogear.com

From mattislind at gmail.com  Mon May  6 14:28:03 2019
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 21:28:03 +0200
Subject: RCA Spectra 70 manuals on Ebay
Message-ID: <CABr82SJU_58E5hZRKq8xgyab4LJUwGK5QgC=znu3iEw77j3aDg@mail.gmail.com>

Maybe of interest to someone?

I didn't find the Cobol manual on Bitsavers.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/372663250835

From wayne.sudol at hotmail.com  Mon May  6 13:04:26 2019
From: wayne.sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne S)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 18:04:26 +0000
Subject: VMS versions
In-Reply-To: <5CD0733A.7000706@pico-systems.com>
References: <CAMFEAABGDY+oJd+_8KpwKN8MfF7BZHN42UELpVwjGZzK8e7ybg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5CD0733A.7000706@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <BYAPR01MB5223B2AC32F079C3A687C6ADE4300@BYAPR01MB5223.prod.exchangelabs.com>

Revision notes were important to read as i learned when i upgraded our 780 from VMS 3.0 to 3.1. All our DIBOL programs stopped working and had to be relinked. Not a fun thing to do on a Monday night before customers started using the system.

Sent from my iPhone

>> On May 6, 2019, at 10:47, Jon Elson via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> 
>> On 05/06/2019 10:55 AM, Ray Jewhurst via cctalk wrote:
>> Does anyone know if there is a comprehensive list of changes from version
>> to version for VMS? Wikipedia's list only shows the models that were
>> introduced and I am more interested in the evolution of features. If anyone
>> knows a website that shows this it would be much appreciated.
> Wow!  There were revision notes (is that the correct term?) that accompanied each new version, telling the major things that had changed.  If you can find the manuals that went with the versions, they had this revision info, and then notes on how to install or update a system.
> 
> Jon

From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon May  6 15:19:48 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 13:19:48 -0700
Subject: PM2390 Clock and Sector writer
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2mpAizQrsKHey8Qx5tSgNva5kDKVcRXubS6Ocr+pVHAXG8hg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ2mpAizQrsKHey8Qx5tSgNva5kDKVcRXubS6Ocr+pVHAXG8hg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41b13742-0f29-ab15-ae7a-f63d435b6668@bitsavers.org>

seriously?
did you see my previous post?

this has NOTHING to do with floppies.


On 5/6/19 12:12 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote:
> Found on eBay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/223506026636
> 
> I suppose Kyroflux and other open-source hardware/software combos can do
> the same thing?
> --
> Anders Nelson
> 
> +1 (517) 775-6129
> 
> www.erogear.com
> 


From healyzh at avanthar.com  Mon May  6 15:21:54 2019
From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 13:21:54 -0700
Subject: VMS versions
In-Reply-To: <6814F94F-B999-4C1A-B603-A799048ED8AF@avanthar.com>
References: <CAMFEAABGDY+oJd+_8KpwKN8MfF7BZHN42UELpVwjGZzK8e7ybg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5CD0733A.7000706@pico-systems.com>
 <b4bca029-efa4-d4e2-0050-527092648319@bitsavers.org>
 <6814F94F-B999-4C1A-B603-A799048ED8AF@avanthar.com>
Message-ID: <17316BA8-A65C-40D8-A57A-69AC4080C1DF@avanthar.com>


> On May 6, 2019, at 11:55 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On May 6, 2019, at 11:12 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 5/6/19 10:47 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
>> 
>>> Wow!  There were revision notes (is that the correct term?)
>> I have AA-LA97C, AA-LB22(A-C) which are the release notes for 5.0 -> 5.4
>> and the 5.4 SPD. I'll see about getting them on line.
> 
> In addition to the ?Release Notes? and ?SPD?, there is also the ?New Features" for at least some versions.
> 
> HP OpenVMS Version 8.3 - New Features and Documentation Overview (Order Number: BA322-90046)
> 
> For VAX/VMS 5.0, 5.2, and 5.3 I know ?New Features? books are the little Grey Paperbacks like the nice Systems Manager book.  I think for v6 and v7 they were the standard sized books, but I can?t easily get to those books right now due to the rack I?m installing. 
> 
> Unfortunately the documentation that HPE had online appears to have vanished.  A lot of this should be on Doc CD?s.  It looks like VSI only has the current documentation online, and it?s in PDF form.
> 
> https://www.vmssoftware.com/documents_list.html
> 
> Zane

It looks like Al has a lot of the ?Release Notes? through v5.4 online.

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/vms/

Zane




From raywjewhurst at gmail.com  Mon May  6 15:47:10 2019
From: raywjewhurst at gmail.com (Ray Jewhurst)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 16:47:10 -0400
Subject: VMS versions
In-Reply-To: <17316BA8-A65C-40D8-A57A-69AC4080C1DF@avanthar.com>
References: <CAMFEAABGDY+oJd+_8KpwKN8MfF7BZHN42UELpVwjGZzK8e7ybg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5CD0733A.7000706@pico-systems.com>
 <b4bca029-efa4-d4e2-0050-527092648319@bitsavers.org>
 <6814F94F-B999-4C1A-B603-A799048ED8AF@avanthar.com>
 <17316BA8-A65C-40D8-A57A-69AC4080C1DF@avanthar.com>
Message-ID: <CAMFEAAARs4fAfwHRaXMh9V30hwaMB=xe2=Q7BfauKVjNbx0DkA@mail.gmail.com>

And I already have 7.1 and 7.3 so I am getting close. Now to compile a list
up to 5.4 then hopefully find a way to fill the gaps.

Ray

On Mon, May 6, 2019, 4:22 PM Zane Healy via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

>
> > On May 6, 2019, at 11:55 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> On May 6, 2019, at 11:12 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 5/6/19 10:47 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
> >>
> >>> Wow!  There were revision notes (is that the correct term?)
> >> I have AA-LA97C, AA-LB22(A-C) which are the release notes for 5.0 -> 5.4
> >> and the 5.4 SPD. I'll see about getting them on line.
> >
> > In addition to the ?Release Notes? and ?SPD?, there is also the ?New
> Features" for at least some versions.
> >
> > HP OpenVMS Version 8.3 - New Features and Documentation Overview (Order
> Number: BA322-90046)
> >
> > For VAX/VMS 5.0, 5.2, and 5.3 I know ?New Features? books are the little
> Grey Paperbacks like the nice Systems Manager book.  I think for v6 and v7
> they were the standard sized books, but I can?t easily get to those books
> right now due to the rack I?m installing.
> >
> > Unfortunately the documentation that HPE had online appears to have
> vanished.  A lot of this should be on Doc CD?s.  It looks like VSI only has
> the current documentation online, and it?s in PDF form.
> >
> > https://www.vmssoftware.com/documents_list.html
> >
> > Zane
>
> It looks like Al has a lot of the ?Release Notes? through v5.4 online.
>
> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/vms/
>
> Zane
>
>
>
>

From healyzh at avanthar.com  Mon May  6 16:17:46 2019
From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 14:17:46 -0700
Subject: VMS versions
In-Reply-To: <CAMFEAAARs4fAfwHRaXMh9V30hwaMB=xe2=Q7BfauKVjNbx0DkA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMFEAABGDY+oJd+_8KpwKN8MfF7BZHN42UELpVwjGZzK8e7ybg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5CD0733A.7000706@pico-systems.com>
 <b4bca029-efa4-d4e2-0050-527092648319@bitsavers.org>
 <6814F94F-B999-4C1A-B603-A799048ED8AF@avanthar.com>
 <17316BA8-A65C-40D8-A57A-69AC4080C1DF@avanthar.com>
 <CAMFEAAARs4fAfwHRaXMh9V30hwaMB=xe2=Q7BfauKVjNbx0DkA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <514A94B9-D567-4B4A-A583-C3C723F5F24E@avanthar.com>


> On May 6, 2019, at 1:47 PM, Ray Jewhurst <raywjewhurst at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> And I already have 7.1 and 7.3 so I am getting close. Now to compile a list up to 5.4 then hopefully find a way to fill the gaps. 
> 
> Ray

It would be nice to see this through 8.4-2L1 (I think that?s the latest version).

Zane





From cclist at sydex.com  Mon May  6 16:17:54 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 14:17:54 -0700
Subject: PM2390 Clock and Sector writer
In-Reply-To: <41b13742-0f29-ab15-ae7a-f63d435b6668@bitsavers.org>
References: <CAJ2mpAizQrsKHey8Qx5tSgNva5kDKVcRXubS6Ocr+pVHAXG8hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <41b13742-0f29-ab15-ae7a-f63d435b6668@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <dd5089be-e57a-c96e-3768-3b8df2ed939a@sydex.com>

On 5/6/19 1:19 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> seriously?
> did you see my previous post?
> 
> this has NOTHING to do with floppies.
> 

If "1A ESS" means the same thing to me, it's a piece of Telco gear for
the 1A ESS.

If not, I dunno.

--Chuck


From linimon at lonesome.com  Mon May  6 16:21:18 2019
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 21:21:18 +0000
Subject: RCA Spectra 70 manuals on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <CABr82SJU_58E5hZRKq8xgyab4LJUwGK5QgC=znu3iEw77j3aDg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABr82SJU_58E5hZRKq8xgyab4LJUwGK5QgC=znu3iEw77j3aDg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190506212117.GA24427@lonesome.com>

On Mon, May 06, 2019 at 09:28:03PM +0200, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote:
> Maybe of interest to someone?

Oh cool!  I remember it as being a neat industrial design.

mcl

From raywjewhurst at gmail.com  Mon May  6 16:33:17 2019
From: raywjewhurst at gmail.com (Ray Jewhurst)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 17:33:17 -0400
Subject: VMS versions
In-Reply-To: <514A94B9-D567-4B4A-A583-C3C723F5F24E@avanthar.com>
References: <CAMFEAABGDY+oJd+_8KpwKN8MfF7BZHN42UELpVwjGZzK8e7ybg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5CD0733A.7000706@pico-systems.com>
 <b4bca029-efa4-d4e2-0050-527092648319@bitsavers.org>
 <6814F94F-B999-4C1A-B603-A799048ED8AF@avanthar.com>
 <17316BA8-A65C-40D8-A57A-69AC4080C1DF@avanthar.com>
 <CAMFEAAARs4fAfwHRaXMh9V30hwaMB=xe2=Q7BfauKVjNbx0DkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <514A94B9-D567-4B4A-A583-C3C723F5F24E@avanthar.com>
Message-ID: <CAMFEAABrRaJUXgOQhbQOOhTtbrdxax4fUdrutC2xYaEoKMf+Dg@mail.gmail.com>

Yes it would but I will need some help since I am not very familiar with
Alpha and Itanium technologies.

Ray

On Mon, May 6, 2019, 5:17 PM Zane Healy <healyzh at avanthar.com> wrote:

>
> On May 6, 2019, at 1:47 PM, Ray Jewhurst <raywjewhurst at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> And I already have 7.1 and 7.3 so I am getting close. Now to compile a
> list up to 5.4 then hopefully find a way to fill the gaps.
>
> Ray
>
>
> It would be nice to see this through 8.4-2L1 (I think that?s the latest
> version).
>
> Zane
>
>
>
>
>

From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon May  6 16:41:30 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 14:41:30 -0700
Subject: PM2390 Clock and Sector writer
In-Reply-To: <dd5089be-e57a-c96e-3768-3b8df2ed939a@sydex.com>
References: <CAJ2mpAizQrsKHey8Qx5tSgNva5kDKVcRXubS6Ocr+pVHAXG8hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <41b13742-0f29-ab15-ae7a-f63d435b6668@bitsavers.org>
 <dd5089be-e57a-c96e-3768-3b8df2ed939a@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <5a0aee55-5f4d-ffff-9dff-a957958eadc4@bitsavers.org>



On 5/6/19 2:17 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> it's a piece of Telco gear for
> the 1A ESS.

the Pacific Bell property tag should be a clue..



From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net  Mon May  6 17:20:13 2019
From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 17:20:13 -0500
Subject: RT-11 doesn't recognize my 3.5" floppy
Message-ID: <316F502EF134477B97DA893B5C45AC47@CharlesDellLap>

I have installed an RQDX3 and the M9058 distribution board in my 11/23+. 
Since I don't have a 5.25" drive yet, I hooked up a 3.5" HD (1.44 MB) drive 
from an old PC.
After a struggle (which I documented on VCFED's DEC forum), I managed to get 
all the jumpers and cables set correctly, and now my XXDP diagnostics 
(ZRQA?? ... ZRQF??) recognize the drive as an RX33 (DU0:, logical drive 0 
since no hard disks are attached). It passes all the tests, and I can INIT, 
DIR, and copy files to it using the limited OS with the XXDP suite. The LED 
on the RQDX3 blinks once when the drive is accessed. So far so good.

But, when I boot the system (with RT-11SJ V5.01), it can't see the drive at 
all. Attempts to access it result in the command hanging indefinitely, the 
drive does not select, and the RQDX3 lamp flashes rapidly. SHOW DEV:DU does 
say that the handler is installed for the correct 172150, 154 location. 
However, SHOW DEV:DUn where n=[0..3] displays two blank lines then back to 
the dot prompt.

Is my version of RT-11 just too old to recognize an RX-33? If so, what do I 
need to fix this? Presumably a later DU.SYS?
Thanks for any help. Most of my experience is with PDP-8's so this is slow 
going...
-Charles


From john at forecast.name  Mon May  6 17:38:25 2019
From: john at forecast.name (John Forecast)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 18:38:25 -0400
Subject: RT-11 doesn't recognize my 3.5" floppy
In-Reply-To: <316F502EF134477B97DA893B5C45AC47@CharlesDellLap>
References: <316F502EF134477B97DA893B5C45AC47@CharlesDellLap>
Message-ID: <27F29640-1261-4B6E-8630-9AFD765673C5@forecast.name>

The release notes on bitsavers indicate that the RX33 was not supported until RT-11 V5.04.

  John.

> On May 6, 2019, at 6:20 PM, Charles via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> I have installed an RQDX3 and the M9058 distribution board in my 11/23+. Since I don't have a 5.25" drive yet, I hooked up a 3.5" HD (1.44 MB) drive from an old PC.
> After a struggle (which I documented on VCFED's DEC forum), I managed to get all the jumpers and cables set correctly, and now my XXDP diagnostics (ZRQA?? ... ZRQF??) recognize the drive as an RX33 (DU0:, logical drive 0 since no hard disks are attached). It passes all the tests, and I can INIT, DIR, and copy files to it using the limited OS with the XXDP suite. The LED on the RQDX3 blinks once when the drive is accessed. So far so good.
> 
> But, when I boot the system (with RT-11SJ V5.01), it can't see the drive at all. Attempts to access it result in the command hanging indefinitely, the drive does not select, and the RQDX3 lamp flashes rapidly. SHOW DEV:DU does say that the handler is installed for the correct 172150, 154 location. However, SHOW DEV:DUn where n=[0..3] displays two blank lines then back to the dot prompt.
> 
> Is my version of RT-11 just too old to recognize an RX-33? If so, what do I need to fix this? Presumably a later DU.SYS?
> Thanks for any help. Most of my experience is with PDP-8's so this is slow going...
> -Charles
> 


From a.carlini at ntlworld.com  Mon May  6 17:48:06 2019
From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 23:48:06 +0100
Subject: VMS versions
In-Reply-To: <CAMFEAABrRaJUXgOQhbQOOhTtbrdxax4fUdrutC2xYaEoKMf+Dg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMFEAABGDY+oJd+_8KpwKN8MfF7BZHN42UELpVwjGZzK8e7ybg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5CD0733A.7000706@pico-systems.com>
 <b4bca029-efa4-d4e2-0050-527092648319@bitsavers.org>
 <6814F94F-B999-4C1A-B603-A799048ED8AF@avanthar.com>
 <17316BA8-A65C-40D8-A57A-69AC4080C1DF@avanthar.com>
 <CAMFEAAARs4fAfwHRaXMh9V30hwaMB=xe2=Q7BfauKVjNbx0DkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <514A94B9-D567-4B4A-A583-C3C723F5F24E@avanthar.com>
 <CAMFEAABrRaJUXgOQhbQOOhTtbrdxax4fUdrutC2xYaEoKMf+Dg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fab1d7c6-f721-5921-1639-bd152ddb474e@ntlworld.com>

On Mon, May 6, 2019, 5:17 PM Zane Healy <healyzh at avanthar.com> wrote:
>
> It would be nice to see this through 8.4-2L1 (I think that?s the latest
> version).
>
> Zane
>

There used to be an article about OpenVMS release history, naturally 
it's been wiped.

Luckily, archive.org has a copy: 
https://web.archive.org/web/20170825003059/http://h41379.www4.hpe.com/openvms/os/openvms-release-history.txt


That gives you a reasonably complete list from V4.0 until V8.4 (no idea 
why V4.1 didn't merit a place: it clearly existed as bitsavers has the 
release notes!).


Now its just a case of tracking down the release notes. Sadly my 
CONDISTs only go back to V5.5 or so.


Antonio


-- 
Antonio Carlini
antonio at acarlini.com


From cclist at sydex.com  Mon May  6 17:59:53 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 15:59:53 -0700
Subject: RCA Spectra 70 manuals on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <20190506212117.GA24427@lonesome.com>
References: <CABr82SJU_58E5hZRKq8xgyab4LJUwGK5QgC=znu3iEw77j3aDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190506212117.GA24427@lonesome.com>
Message-ID: <ea5ab615-d3df-d070-d967-8a1aa9b1b1b7@sydex.com>

On 5/6/19 2:21 PM, Mark Linimon via cctalk wrote:
> On Mon, May 06, 2019 at 09:28:03PM +0200, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote:
>> Maybe of interest to someone?
> 
> Oh cool!  I remember it as being a neat industrial design.

We used to call them "Spectrolas".   Very user-microprogrammable for the
time.

--Chuck


From healyzh at avanthar.com  Mon May  6 18:13:15 2019
From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 16:13:15 -0700
Subject: VMS versions
In-Reply-To: <fab1d7c6-f721-5921-1639-bd152ddb474e@ntlworld.com>
References: <CAMFEAABGDY+oJd+_8KpwKN8MfF7BZHN42UELpVwjGZzK8e7ybg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5CD0733A.7000706@pico-systems.com>
 <b4bca029-efa4-d4e2-0050-527092648319@bitsavers.org>
 <6814F94F-B999-4C1A-B603-A799048ED8AF@avanthar.com>
 <17316BA8-A65C-40D8-A57A-69AC4080C1DF@avanthar.com>
 <CAMFEAAARs4fAfwHRaXMh9V30hwaMB=xe2=Q7BfauKVjNbx0DkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <514A94B9-D567-4B4A-A583-C3C723F5F24E@avanthar.com>
 <CAMFEAABrRaJUXgOQhbQOOhTtbrdxax4fUdrutC2xYaEoKMf+Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <fab1d7c6-f721-5921-1639-bd152ddb474e@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <797B3E20-CA16-4D22-BF4B-2E24F0531C4A@avanthar.com>


> On May 6, 2019, at 3:48 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, May 6, 2019, 5:17 PM Zane Healy <healyzh at avanthar.com> wrote:
>> 
>> It would be nice to see this through 8.4-2L1 (I think that?s the latest
>> version).
>> 
>> Zane
>> 
> 
> There used to be an article about OpenVMS release history, naturally it's been wiped.
> 
> Luckily, archive.org has a copy: https://web.archive.org/web/20170825003059/http://h41379.www4.hpe.com/openvms/os/openvms-release-history.txt
> 
> 
> That gives you a reasonably complete list from V4.0 until V8.4 (no idea why V4.1 didn't merit a place: it clearly existed as bitsavers has the release notes!).
> 
> 
> Now its just a case of tracking down the release notes. Sadly my CONDISTs only go back to V5.5 or so.

WOW, how is it that I?ve never seen this?  That?s one of the coolest little VMS doc tidbits I?ve ever seen.  I just snagged a copy.

Now to ask my eldest if he wants access to a system running ?Dory? or ?Nemo?, he?s in High School. :-)

Zane




From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon May  6 18:28:59 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 16:28:59 -0700
Subject: RCA Spectra 70 manuals on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <CABr82SJU_58E5hZRKq8xgyab4LJUwGK5QgC=znu3iEw77j3aDg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABr82SJU_58E5hZRKq8xgyab4LJUwGK5QgC=znu3iEw77j3aDg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <aa026963-60c6-70b8-5be5-65a796dc27b8@bitsavers.org>

I will probably go after these.
I've got a big backlog of spectra manuals, but don't seem to have those.

Another computer that I need to hack down the backlog on.


On 5/6/19 12:28 PM, Mattis Lind wrote:
> Maybe of interest to someone?
> 
> I didn't find the Cobol manual on Bitsavers.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/372663250835


From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon May  6 18:34:01 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 16:34:01 -0700
Subject: DLC Company "Cowculator"
Message-ID: <df1e7cdb-55ed-abbc-9e46-a1cd69010c9d@bitsavers.org>

I took a better picture of the panel for this yesterday
http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dlcCompany/cowculator

Other than a couple of want-ads from the early 60's I've
not been able to turn up any more information on this.

I'm assuming you optimize by adjusting the parameters to
zero on the meter.

Other than what is on the panel, I've not found anything
on the DLC Company in Linthicum, Md.


From billdegnan at gmail.com  Mon May  6 18:49:56 2019
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 19:49:56 -0400
Subject: DLC Company "Cowculator"
In-Reply-To: <df1e7cdb-55ed-abbc-9e46-a1cd69010c9d@bitsavers.org>
References: <df1e7cdb-55ed-abbc-9e46-a1cd69010c9d@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CABGJBuf2BGjzu6JF8CXpr_rjHTViPuCw75iSzx_1EmPWzDrPkQ@mail.gmail.com>

I go disc golfing from time to time near Linthicum MD,  I know there were a
few surplus dealers of ancient eletronics near there, maybe something will
turn up there.
b

On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 7:32 PM Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> I took a better picture of the panel for this yesterday
> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dlcCompany/cowculator
>
> Other than a couple of want-ads from the early 60's I've
> not been able to turn up any more information on this.
>
> I'm assuming you optimize by adjusting the parameters to
> zero on the meter.
>
> Other than what is on the panel, I've not found anything
> on the DLC Company in Linthicum, Md.
>
>

From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com  Mon May  6 18:57:40 2019
From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 20:57:40 -0300
Subject: DLC Company "Cowculator"
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBuf2BGjzu6JF8CXpr_rjHTViPuCw75iSzx_1EmPWzDrPkQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <df1e7cdb-55ed-abbc-9e46-a1cd69010c9d@bitsavers.org>
 <CABGJBuf2BGjzu6JF8CXpr_rjHTViPuCw75iSzx_1EmPWzDrPkQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANdZFKTx7m07EsaDUMHYE0h5eUAAZK8nGD-zfOiZv-vQbyo+ug@mail.gmail.com>

Cowculator is for people who studies cowculus?

(oh, the cows text file... =D )

---8<---Corte aqui---8<---
http://www.tabajara-labs.blogspot.com
http://www.tabalabs.com.br
---8<---Corte aqui---8<---


Em seg, 6 de mai de 2019 ?s 20:50, Bill Degnan via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> escreveu:

> I go disc golfing from time to time near Linthicum MD,  I know there were a
> few surplus dealers of ancient eletronics near there, maybe something will
> turn up there.
> b
>
> On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 7:32 PM Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org
> >
> wrote:
>
> > I took a better picture of the panel for this yesterday
> > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dlcCompany/cowculator
> >
> > Other than a couple of want-ads from the early 60's I've
> > not been able to turn up any more information on this.
> >
> > I'm assuming you optimize by adjusting the parameters to
> > zero on the meter.
> >
> > Other than what is on the panel, I've not found anything
> > on the DLC Company in Linthicum, Md.
> >
> >
>

From barythrin at gmail.com  Mon May  6 18:58:12 2019
From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 18:58:12 -0500
Subject: VMS versions
In-Reply-To: <797B3E20-CA16-4D22-BF4B-2E24F0531C4A@avanthar.com>
References: <CAMFEAABGDY+oJd+_8KpwKN8MfF7BZHN42UELpVwjGZzK8e7ybg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5CD0733A.7000706@pico-systems.com>
 <b4bca029-efa4-d4e2-0050-527092648319@bitsavers.org>
 <6814F94F-B999-4C1A-B603-A799048ED8AF@avanthar.com>
 <17316BA8-A65C-40D8-A57A-69AC4080C1DF@avanthar.com>
 <CAMFEAAARs4fAfwHRaXMh9V30hwaMB=xe2=Q7BfauKVjNbx0DkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <514A94B9-D567-4B4A-A583-C3C723F5F24E@avanthar.com>
 <CAMFEAABrRaJUXgOQhbQOOhTtbrdxax4fUdrutC2xYaEoKMf+Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <fab1d7c6-f721-5921-1639-bd152ddb474e@ntlworld.com>
 <797B3E20-CA16-4D22-BF4B-2E24F0531C4A@avanthar.com>
Message-ID: <A523D5C2-FA8B-4105-9B1C-3D509C57EE79@gmail.com>


Not sure if it's that easy but if the file on CD-ROM had a consistent name, a specific google or ftp search engine may actually be useful to find other copies out there. 

Sent from my Apple /////c

>> There used to be an article about OpenVMS release history, naturally it's been wiped.
>> 
>> Luckily, archive.org has a copy: https://web.archive.org/web/20170825003059/http://h41379.www4.hpe.com/openvms/os/openvms-release-history.txt
>> 

From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com  Mon May  6 19:00:36 2019
From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 21:00:36 -0300
Subject: DLC Company "Cowculator"
In-Reply-To: <CANdZFKTx7m07EsaDUMHYE0h5eUAAZK8nGD-zfOiZv-vQbyo+ug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <df1e7cdb-55ed-abbc-9e46-a1cd69010c9d@bitsavers.org>
 <CABGJBuf2BGjzu6JF8CXpr_rjHTViPuCw75iSzx_1EmPWzDrPkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANdZFKTx7m07EsaDUMHYE0h5eUAAZK8nGD-zfOiZv-vQbyo+ug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANdZFKTJOQaQ3_VHKG5BnJMSWvZATqNOPJBBL5oQEGgkD_j6nw@mail.gmail.com>

* (__)
\ (oo)
\---------------\/
| 0.0 |
|---------------|
| C CE ^ - |
| 7 8 9 + |
| 4 5 6 * |
| 1 2 3 / |
| 0 . = |
| ||
||-----------||
^^ ^^

Cow-culater

https://github.com/sindresorhus/cows/blob/master/cows.txt =D =D =D
(this is SO old!)
---8<---Corte aqui---8<---
http://www.tabajara-labs.blogspot.com
http://www.tabalabs.com.br
---8<---Corte aqui---8<---


Em seg, 6 de mai de 2019 ?s 20:57, Alexandre Souza <
alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> escreveu:

> Cowculator is for people who studies cowculus?
>
> (oh, the cows text file... =D )
>
> ---8<---Corte aqui---8<---
> http://www.tabajara-labs.blogspot.com
> http://www.tabalabs.com.br
> ---8<---Corte aqui---8<---
>
>
> Em seg, 6 de mai de 2019 ?s 20:50, Bill Degnan via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> escreveu:
>
>> I go disc golfing from time to time near Linthicum MD,  I know there were
>> a
>> few surplus dealers of ancient eletronics near there, maybe something will
>> turn up there.
>> b
>>
>> On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 7:32 PM Al Kossow via cctalk <
>> cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > I took a better picture of the panel for this yesterday
>> > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dlcCompany/cowculator
>> >
>> > Other than a couple of want-ads from the early 60's I've
>> > not been able to turn up any more information on this.
>> >
>> > I'm assuming you optimize by adjusting the parameters to
>> > zero on the meter.
>> >
>> > Other than what is on the panel, I've not found anything
>> > on the DLC Company in Linthicum, Md.
>> >
>> >
>>
>

From fmc at reanimators.org  Mon May  6 19:02:37 2019
From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 17:02:37 -0700
Subject: VMS versions
In-Reply-To: <fab1d7c6-f721-5921-1639-bd152ddb474e@ntlworld.com>
References: <CAMFEAABGDY+oJd+_8KpwKN8MfF7BZHN42UELpVwjGZzK8e7ybg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5CD0733A.7000706@pico-systems.com>
 <b4bca029-efa4-d4e2-0050-527092648319@bitsavers.org>
 <6814F94F-B999-4C1A-B603-A799048ED8AF@avanthar.com>
 <17316BA8-A65C-40D8-A57A-69AC4080C1DF@avanthar.com>
 <CAMFEAAARs4fAfwHRaXMh9V30hwaMB=xe2=Q7BfauKVjNbx0DkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <514A94B9-D567-4B4A-A583-C3C723F5F24E@avanthar.com>
 <CAMFEAABrRaJUXgOQhbQOOhTtbrdxax4fUdrutC2xYaEoKMf+Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <fab1d7c6-f721-5921-1639-bd152ddb474e@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <B6ABD144-26EE-4C78-85EA-98F65DFE3A2D@reanimators.org>

On May 6, 2019, at 15:48, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote:
> 
> On Mon, May 6, 2019, 5:17 PM Zane Healy <healyzh at avanthar.com> wrote:
>> 
>> It would be nice to see this through 8.4-2L1 (I think that?s the latest
>> version).
>> 
>> Zane
>> 
> 
> There used to be an article about OpenVMS release history, naturally it's been wiped.

Likewise, there used to be an article about MPE release history.  Links I know for it are:

<http://community.hpe.com/t5/General/MPE-Release-History/td-p/4075425> (20 Aug 2014)
<http://h30499.www3.hp.com/t5/General/MPE-Release-History/td-p/4075425> (28 Apr 2016)

Naturally it?s been wiped, and archive.org *doesn?t* have a copy, even though they have other pages under that t5/General directory in both cases.

-Frank McConnell


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon May  6 19:07:09 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 17:07:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: DLC Company "Cowculator"
In-Reply-To: <CANdZFKTJOQaQ3_VHKG5BnJMSWvZATqNOPJBBL5oQEGgkD_j6nw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <df1e7cdb-55ed-abbc-9e46-a1cd69010c9d@bitsavers.org>
 <CABGJBuf2BGjzu6JF8CXpr_rjHTViPuCw75iSzx_1EmPWzDrPkQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANdZFKTx7m07EsaDUMHYE0h5eUAAZK8nGD-zfOiZv-vQbyo+ug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANdZFKTJOQaQ3_VHKG5BnJMSWvZATqNOPJBBL5oQEGgkD_j6nw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905061706110.17007@shell.lmi.net>

Unrelated non-computer cow:
http://www.artcaragency.com/gallery/cowasaki-art-car-by-larry-fuente/


On Mon, 6 May 2019, Alexandre Souza via cctalk wrote:

> * (__)
> \ (oo)
> \---------------\/
> | 0.0 |
> |---------------|
> | C CE ^ - |
> | 7 8 9 + |
> | 4 5 6 * |
> | 1 2 3 / |
> | 0 . = |
> | ||
> ||-----------||
> ^^ ^^
>
> Cow-culater
>
> https://github.com/sindresorhus/cows/blob/master/cows.txt =D =D =D
> (this is SO old!)
k

From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net  Mon May  6 19:21:14 2019
From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 19:21:14 -0500
Subject: RT-11 doesn't recognize my 3.5" floppy
In-Reply-To: <27F29640-1261-4B6E-8630-9AFD765673C5@forecast.name>
References: <316F502EF134477B97DA893B5C45AC47@CharlesDellLap>
 <27F29640-1261-4B6E-8630-9AFD765673C5@forecast.name>
Message-ID: <21FD35D6ACCD40AA8E78C4A712B42ED3@CharlesDellLap>

Thanks... I have an RT-11XM pack with version 5.04, booted the system from 
that - and it does recognize the floppy!
Except that whoever built it didn't bother to include DU.SYS, just DUX.SYS. 
Grrr.

Now I just have to figure out how to update the old RT11SJ 5.01 that my TSX+ 
runs on top of, to a later version, without clobbering all my work building 
it :)
Guess I get to learn how to make an RT-11 bootable disk!



-----Original Message----- 
From: John Forecast
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2019 5:38 PM
To: Charles ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: RT-11 doesn't recognize my 3.5" floppy

The release notes on bitsavers indicate that the RX33 was not supported 
until RT-11 V5.04.

  John.

> On May 6, 2019, at 6:20 PM, Charles via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> 
> wrote:
>
> I have installed an RQDX3 and the M9058 distribution board in my 11/23+. 
> Since I don't have a 5.25" drive yet, I hooked up a 3.5" HD (1.44 MB) 
> drive from an old PC.
> After a struggle (which I documented on VCFED's DEC forum), I managed to 
> get all the jumpers and cables set correctly, and now my XXDP diagnostics 
> (ZRQA?? ... ZRQF??) recognize the drive as an RX33 (DU0:, logical drive 0 
> since no hard disks are attached). It passes all the tests, and I can 
> INIT, DIR, and copy files to it using the limited OS with the XXDP suite. 
> The LED on the RQDX3 blinks once when the drive is accessed. So far so 
> good.
>
> But, when I boot the system (with RT-11SJ V5.01), it can't see the drive 
> at all. Attempts to access it result in the command hanging indefinitely, 
> the drive does not select, and the RQDX3 lamp flashes rapidly. SHOW DEV:DU 
> does say that the handler is installed for the correct 172150, 154 
> location. However, SHOW DEV:DUn where n=[0..3] displays two blank lines 
> then back to the dot prompt.
>
> Is my version of RT-11 just too old to recognize an RX-33? If so, what do 
> I need to fix this? Presumably a later DU.SYS?
> Thanks for any help. Most of my experience is with PDP-8's so this is slow 
> going...
> -Charles
> 

From barythrin at gmail.com  Mon May  6 20:14:19 2019
From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 20:14:19 -0500
Subject: DLC Company "Cowculator"
In-Reply-To: <df1e7cdb-55ed-abbc-9e46-a1cd69010c9d@bitsavers.org>
References: <df1e7cdb-55ed-abbc-9e46-a1cd69010c9d@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <116F6497-4176-4B68-8245-52DAD6F449F3@gmail.com>

Searching quickly on google I see a reference to the one at the CHM in mountain view. 

Also found this https://trademark.trademarkia.com/cowculator-72119112.html which acknowledges the company. Not sure if it would link to additional info. Interestingly there are newer ones also seem to be measuring milk quality but I'm not sure if you input the variables or if the computer finds them. 


Sent from my Apple /////c

> On May 6, 2019, at 6:34 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> I took a better picture of the panel for this yesterday
> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dlcCompany/cowculator
> 
> Other than a couple of want-ads from the early 60's I've
> not been able to turn up any more information on this.
> 
> I'm assuming you optimize by adjusting the parameters to
> zero on the meter.
> 
> Other than what is on the panel, I've not found anything
> on the DLC Company in Linthicum, Md.
> 

From bear at typewritten.org  Tue May  7 01:11:59 2019
From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 23:11:59 -0700
Subject: MPE release history (was: Re: VMS versions)
In-Reply-To: <B6ABD144-26EE-4C78-85EA-98F65DFE3A2D@reanimators.org>
References: <CAMFEAABGDY+oJd+_8KpwKN8MfF7BZHN42UELpVwjGZzK8e7ybg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5CD0733A.7000706@pico-systems.com>
 <b4bca029-efa4-d4e2-0050-527092648319@bitsavers.org>
 <6814F94F-B999-4C1A-B603-A799048ED8AF@avanthar.com>
 <17316BA8-A65C-40D8-A57A-69AC4080C1DF@avanthar.com>
 <CAMFEAAARs4fAfwHRaXMh9V30hwaMB=xe2=Q7BfauKVjNbx0DkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <514A94B9-D567-4B4A-A583-C3C723F5F24E@avanthar.com>
 <CAMFEAABrRaJUXgOQhbQOOhTtbrdxax4fUdrutC2xYaEoKMf+Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <fab1d7c6-f721-5921-1639-bd152ddb474e@ntlworld.com>
 <B6ABD144-26EE-4C78-85EA-98F65DFE3A2D@reanimators.org>
Message-ID: <E93281FA-870E-432F-8E41-EE407DF6A743@typewritten.org>


On May 6, 2019, at 5:02 PM, Frank McConnell via cctech wrote:

> Likewise, there used to be an article about MPE release history.  Links I know for it are:
> 
> <http://community.hpe.com/t5/General/MPE-Release-History/td-p/4075425> (20 Aug 2014)
> <http://h30499.www3.hp.com/t5/General/MPE-Release-History/td-p/4075425> (28 Apr 2016)
> 
> Naturally it?s been wiped, and archive.org *doesn?t* have a copy, even though they have other pages under that t5/General directory in both cases.

I saved a copy in 2012. There are files attached to some of the posts in that forum thread which collate the results and, amazingly, are still accessible: 

http://community.hpe.com/hpeb/attachments/hpeb/itrc-19/2080/1/294077.html
http://community.hpe.com/hpeb/attachments/hpeb/itrc-19/2081/1/336662.htm

Grab them while you still can.


ok
bear.

-- 
until further notice


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue May  7 07:39:34 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue,  7 May 2019 08:39:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: MPE release history (was: Re: VMS versions)
Message-ID: <20190507123934.EC2E818C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: R. Stricklin

    > I saved a copy in 2012. ... Grab them while you still can.

The tendency of links to go bad is momumental; the probability of it
happening over long time periods seems to asymtotically approach 1.0.

So everyone ought to make a habit of down-loading a copy of anything they
have an interest in; the existence of multiple copies seems to be the best
safeguard that material will not be lost.

	Noel

From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net  Tue May  7 10:15:52 2019
From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 11:15:52 -0400
Subject: RT-11 doesn't recognize my 3.5" floppy
In-Reply-To: <316F502EF134477B97DA893B5C45AC47@CharlesDellLap>
References: <316F502EF134477B97DA893B5C45AC47@CharlesDellLap>
Message-ID: <d34592a4-07f6-cd31-46a0-5fa934d80ebb@comcast.net>

Very interesting , now that you got it to work, what can you use it for?
Will it be an exchange media with PUTR?

Doug

On 5/6/2019 6:20 PM, Charles via cctalk wrote:
> I have installed an RQDX3 and the M9058 distribution board in my 
> 11/23+. Since I don't have a 5.25" drive yet, I hooked up a 3.5" HD 
> (1.44 MB) drive from an old PC.
> After a struggle (which I documented on VCFED's DEC forum), I managed 
> to get all the jumpers and cables set correctly, and now my XXDP 
> diagnostics (ZRQA?? ... ZRQF??) recognize the drive as an RX33 (DU0:, 
> logical drive 0 since no hard disks are attached). It passes all the 
> tests, and I can INIT, DIR, and copy files to it using the limited OS 
> with the XXDP suite. The LED on the RQDX3 blinks once when the drive 
> is accessed. So far so good.
>
> But, when I boot the system (with RT-11SJ V5.01), it can't see the 
> drive at all. Attempts to access it result in the command hanging 
> indefinitely, the drive does not select, and the RQDX3 lamp flashes 
> rapidly. SHOW DEV:DU does say that the handler is installed for the 
> correct 172150, 154 location. However, SHOW DEV:DUn where n=[0..3] 
> displays two blank lines then back to the dot prompt.
>
> Is my version of RT-11 just too old to recognize an RX-33? If so, what 
> do I need to fix this? Presumably a later DU.SYS?
> Thanks for any help. Most of my experience is with PDP-8's so this is 
> slow going...
> -Charles
>


From allisonportable at gmail.com  Tue May  7 10:59:36 2019
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 11:59:36 -0400
Subject: RT-11 doesn't recognize my 3.5" floppy
In-Reply-To: <d34592a4-07f6-cd31-46a0-5fa934d80ebb@comcast.net>
References: <316F502EF134477B97DA893B5C45AC47@CharlesDellLap>
 <d34592a4-07f6-cd31-46a0-5fa934d80ebb@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <db1a267d-78a4-d1b5-2b94-3e12ecbf8ea0@gmail.com>

On 05/07/2019 11:15 AM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> Very interesting , now that you got it to work, what can you use it for?
> Will it be an exchange media with PUTR?
>
> Doug
>
> On 5/6/2019 6:20 PM, Charles via cctalk wrote:
>> I have installed an RQDX3 and the M9058 distribution board in my
>> 11/23+. Since I don't have a 5.25" drive yet, I hooked up a 3.5" HD
>> (1.44 MB) drive from an old PC.
>> After a struggle (which I documented on VCFED's DEC forum), I managed
>> to get all the jumpers and cables set correctly, and now my XXDP
>> diagnostics (ZRQA?? ... ZRQF??) recognize the drive as an RX33 (DU0:,
>> logical drive 0 since no hard disks are attached). It passes all the
>> tests, and I can INIT, DIR, and copy files to it using the limited OS
>> with the XXDP suite. The LED on the RQDX3 blinks once when the drive
>> is accessed. So far so good.
>>
Did you actually test the drive by formatting, reading and writing?

>> But, when I boot the system (with RT-11SJ V5.01), it can't see the
>> drive at all. Attempts to access it result in the command hanging
>> indefinitely, the drive does not select, and the RQDX3 lamp flashes
>> rapidly. SHOW DEV:DU does say that the handler is installed for the
>> correct 172150, 154 location. However, SHOW DEV:DUn where n=[0..3]
>> displays two blank lines then back to the dot prompt.
>>
>> Is my version of RT-11 just too old to recognize an RX-33? If so,
>> what do I need to fix this? Presumably a later DU.SYS?
>> Thanks for any help. Most of my experience is with PDP-8's so this is
>> slow going...
>> -Charles
>>
>

RT11V5 works for me using RQDX3 and the distribution board in the BA23
box assembled as a MicroPDP-11 with RX33
and RD52 (Quantum 31mb).? Never thought much about it other than to make
sure the RX33 was jumpers were correct
and making a dummy panel for the smaller than RX50 drive.

The 11/73 system has the RQDX3 and the signal distribution board (m8058)
out of BA123 to hook up
RD52, RX33, RX23 and never had issues due to addressing devices under RT11.

Is it possible you have a interrupt grant gap between the various boards
and the RQDX?? That would cause a hang.

If you successful it makes using PUTR easier though RX50 works for that
too just smaller.

Allison

From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Tue May  7 12:03:03 2019
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 18:03:03 +0100
Subject: RT-11 doesn't recognize my 3.5" floppy
In-Reply-To: <27F29640-1261-4B6E-8630-9AFD765673C5@forecast.name>
References: <316F502EF134477B97DA893B5C45AC47@CharlesDellLap>
 <27F29640-1261-4B6E-8630-9AFD765673C5@forecast.name>
Message-ID: <895c3523-0dbf-a551-87c1-141c23b63ea2@dunnington.plus.com>

On 06/05/2019 23:38, John Forecast via cctalk wrote:
> The release notes on bitsavers indicate that the RX33 was not supported until RT-11 V5.04.

>> On May 6, 2019, at 6:20 PM, Charles via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> I have installed an RQDX3

>> But, when I boot the system (with RT-11SJ V5.01), it can't see the drive at all.

Not only was the RX33 not supported until 5.04, there's a bug in the 
MSCP DU driver that wasn't fixed until 5.03 (IIRC) or maybe 5.04, which 
means nothing on an RQDX3 can be guaranteed to work properly before 
that.  It caused me a lot of grief, way back in 1994.

See the files at http://www.dunnington.info/public/RQDX/ and 
particularly http://www.dunnington.info/public/RQDX/DUX.TXT if you're 
interested.

-- 
Pete
Pete Turnbull

From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com  Tue May  7 12:21:19 2019
From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 18:21:19 +0100
Subject: LA50 and Computest Docs wanted
Message-ID: <CAHkUCCx+b7poHw=azb4+ATiLZcc_fHKKiubDf8hgw6cmyibE8g@mail.gmail.com>

Firstly, does anyone have the printset (schematic) for the DEC LA50
printer? It's
not on Bitsavers and I can't find it anywhere else.

Secondly (and more interesting/less likely to be known) I have a thing here
called a 'Computest 3020'. It seems to be a luggable data logger. A case,
very deep from front to back, with a carrying handle. The front hinges down
and contains a keyboard, this reveals a monochrome monitor (about 9"
diagonal CRT) and a pair of half-height 5.25" Teac floppy drives.

Inside there's a logic board that slides in from the back. It contains a Z80A,
boot ROM, 64K DRAM, a pair of 8251 USARTs (oddly, only one is brought out
to a connector, there is a single DB25 on the back), Intel 8276 video chip,
Western Digital FDC (I think 2797, but don't quote me!) etc. It plugs in on
what seems to be separate sets of edge fingers for the floppy drives, keyboard,
monitor and a 50 wire link to the motherboard that is located above this
logic board. The motherboard has 8 edge connectors for '64 channel
switch' PCBs (look to be analogue multiplexers, full of 4052s), a 'measurement
PCB' (ADC, etc) and a 'control PCB' which I think is to control the thing you
are taking measurements from, it has 3 DE9 connectors).

Anyway, I can't find anything about it with Google. Manuals would be useful
the software disks (which I don't have) even more so.

-tony

From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue May  7 12:54:19 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 10:54:19 -0700
Subject: DLC Company "Cowculator"
In-Reply-To: <df1e7cdb-55ed-abbc-9e46-a1cd69010c9d@bitsavers.org>
References: <df1e7cdb-55ed-abbc-9e46-a1cd69010c9d@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <c6068b0f-2eac-56e5-2665-7b0373e1cd9c@bitsavers.org>



On 5/6/19 4:34 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> I took a better picture of the panel for this yesterday
> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dlcCompany/cowculator
> 
> Other than a couple of want-ads from the early 60's I've
> not been able to turn up any more information on this.
> 

I have a brochure for the device coming and
uploaded a clipping which says it was developed by
Dr C. D. Casey, director of feed research for Cooperative
Mills, Inc in Baltimore.




From a.carlini at ntlworld.com  Tue May  7 13:06:23 2019
From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 19:06:23 +0100
Subject: MPE release history (was: Re: VMS versions)
In-Reply-To: <20190507123934.EC2E818C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190507123934.EC2E818C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <5df99064-feac-57de-86a3-eae7bf6596dd@ntlworld.com>

On 07/05/2019 13:39, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
>      > From: R. Stricklin
>
>      > I saved a copy in 2012. ... Grab them while you still can.
>
> The tendency of links to go bad is momumental; the probability of it
> happening over long time periods seems to asymtotically approach 1.0.
>
> So everyone ought to make a habit of down-loading a copy of anything they
> have an interest in; the existence of multiple copies seems to be the best
> safeguard that material will not be lost.
>
> 	Noel
>
I do pro-actively ask archive.org to save things that are useful, but I 
do also save some of them locally too. Usually I can find the 
archive.org copy before my own :-)


Antonio

-- 
Antonio Carlini
antonio at acarlini.com


From kevenm at 3kranger.com  Tue May  7 09:30:55 2019
From: kevenm at 3kranger.com (Keven Miller(3k))
Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 07:30:55 -0700
Subject: MPE versions
References: <CAMFEAABGDY+oJd+_8KpwKN8MfF7BZHN42UELpVwjGZzK8e7ybg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5CD0733A.7000706@pico-systems.com>
 <b4bca029-efa4-d4e2-0050-527092648319@bitsavers.org>
 <6814F94F-B999-4C1A-B603-A799048ED8AF@avanthar.com>
 <17316BA8-A65C-40D8-A57A-69AC4080C1DF@avanthar.com>
 <CAMFEAAARs4fAfwHRaXMh9V30hwaMB=xe2=Q7BfauKVjNbx0DkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <514A94B9-D567-4B4A-A583-C3C723F5F24E@avanthar.com>
 <CAMFEAABrRaJUXgOQhbQOOhTtbrdxax4fUdrutC2xYaEoKMf+Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <fab1d7c6-f721-5921-1639-bd152ddb474e@ntlworld.com>
 <B6ABD144-26EE-4C78-85EA-98F65DFE3A2D@reanimators.org>
Message-ID: <1549B72220584077ABF35B4D4D049023@ranger1>

Thanks for the awareness.

TurboImage Release History - get it while available!
https://support.hpe.com/hpsc/doc/public/display?docId=emr_na-c02078148&docLocale=en_US

Keven Miller

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Frank McConnell via cctech" <cctech at classiccmp.org>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Mon 06 May 2019 05:02 PM
Subject: Re: VMS versions


On May 6, 2019, at 15:48, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote:
>
> On Mon, May 6, 2019, 5:17 PM Zane Healy <healyzh at avanthar.com> wrote:
>>
>> It would be nice to see this through 8.4-2L1 (I think that?s the latest
>> version).
>>
>> Zane
>>
>
> There used to be an article about OpenVMS release history, naturally it's 
> been wiped.

Likewise, there used to be an article about MPE release history.  Links I 
know for it are:

<http://community.hpe.com/t5/General/MPE-Release-History/td-p/4075425> (20 
Aug 2014)
<http://h30499.www3.hp.com/t5/General/MPE-Release-History/td-p/4075425> (28 
Apr 2016)

Naturally it?s been wiped, and archive.org *doesn?t* have a copy, even 
though they have other pages under that t5/General directory in both cases.

-Frank McConnell



From sytse at sytse.net  Tue May  7 15:10:34 2019
From: sytse at sytse.net (Sytse van Slooten)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 22:10:34 +0200
Subject: VCF Southeast Photos, Now Thinking Machines
In-Reply-To: <d2294b7f-8876-2762-2805-e2988a23523d@janadelsbach.com>
References: <CAEfH1SGPcPXubpBYZSzF4D10Qfp8dbPFpDJqffT9xAkYGb9Y3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <60B5F96D-00DA-4E67-B894-E6D3A874756B@gmail.com>
 <dff4a073d3f182d683777e169367ab0c@alanlee.org>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1905020108080.10932@users.757.org>
 <E089357C-B6A5-43AA-8CEE-5AD957D8E8A2@sytse.net>
 <d2294b7f-8876-2762-2805-e2988a23523d@janadelsbach.com>
Message-ID: <BF3E1E67-ECDA-40F8-9902-550E4015E954@sytse.net>

Thanks! Had a good bit of fun reading that.

I?m not going to try building an FPGA version though. Not yet.

> On 3 May 2019, at 22:26, Jan Adelsbach via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On 5/3/19 8:02 PM, Sytse van Slooten via cctalk wrote:
>>>> It's a CM-2.  The problem with most CM-2s - aside not working in 2019 - is most were never fully populated with card cages in all 8 hyper-cubes.  That particular machine only has card cages in 2 of the hyper-cubes.  The other 6 are empty.  I'm not sure a machine with max 64K processors was ever actually sold to a real customer.
>>> Very cool to see some of these being preserved.
>>> 
>> Is there any documentation still around? I did a quick check on bitsavers, but couldn?t find any? was I looking in the wrong place?
> 
> Here is some documentation:
> http://people.csail.mit.edu/bradley/cm5docs/
> 
> Also there are a couple of documents on archive.org like the CM chip specification:
> https://archive.org/details/06Kahle001103
> 
> - Jan
> 
> 
> 


From couryhouse at aol.com  Tue May  7 15:40:29 2019
From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 20:40:29 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: MPE versions
References: <633640439.1311359.1557261629027.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <633640439.1311359.1557261629027@mail.yahoo.com>

I? ?remember? giving the database? some? w/? ?Orley? Larson? ?in Brighton UK? when I was there? giving? invited? paper on? FORUM/USA.... ---Ed Sharpe

In a message dated 5/7/2019 1:35:00 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:
Thanks for the awareness.
TurboImage Release History - get it while available!https://support.hpe.com/hpsc/doc/public/display?docId=emr_na-c02078148&docLocale=en_US
Keven Miller
----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank McConnell via cctech" <cctech at classiccmp.org>To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>Sent: Mon 06 May 2019 05:02 PMSubject: Re: VMS versions

On May 6, 2019, at 15:48, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote:>> On Mon, May 6, 2019, 5:17 PM Zane Healy <healyzh at avanthar.com> wrote:>>>> It would be nice to see this through 8.4-2L1 (I think that?s the latest>> version).>>>> Zane>>>> There used to be an article about OpenVMS release history, naturally it's > been wiped.
Likewise, there used to be an article about MPE release history.? Links I know for it are:
<http://community.hpe.com/t5/General/MPE-Release-History/td-p/4075425> (20 Aug 2014)<http://h30499.www3.hp.com/t5/General/MPE-Release-History/td-p/4075425> (28 Apr 2016)
Naturally it?s been wiped, and archive.org *doesn?t* have a copy, even though they have other pages under that t5/General directory in both cases.
-Frank McConnell


From couryhouse at aol.com  Tue May  7 15:40:55 2019
From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 20:40:55 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: MPE versions
In-Reply-To: <1549B72220584077ABF35B4D4D049023@ranger1>
References: <CAMFEAABGDY+oJd+_8KpwKN8MfF7BZHN42UELpVwjGZzK8e7ybg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5CD0733A.7000706@pico-systems.com>
 <b4bca029-efa4-d4e2-0050-527092648319@bitsavers.org>
 <6814F94F-B999-4C1A-B603-A799048ED8AF@avanthar.com>
 <17316BA8-A65C-40D8-A57A-69AC4080C1DF@avanthar.com>
 <CAMFEAAARs4fAfwHRaXMh9V30hwaMB=xe2=Q7BfauKVjNbx0DkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <514A94B9-D567-4B4A-A583-C3C723F5F24E@avanthar.com>
 <CAMFEAABrRaJUXgOQhbQOOhTtbrdxax4fUdrutC2xYaEoKMf+Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <fab1d7c6-f721-5921-1639-bd152ddb474e@ntlworld.com>
 <B6ABD144-26EE-4C78-85EA-98F65DFE3A2D@reanimators.org>
 <1549B72220584077ABF35B4D4D049023@ranger1>
Message-ID: <649998002.1319499.1557261655651@mail.yahoo.com>

should? have? ?said? ? song!
In a message dated 5/7/2019 1:35:00 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:
Thanks for the awareness.
TurboImage Release History - get it while available!https://support.hpe.com/hpsc/doc/public/display?docId=emr_na-c02078148&docLocale=en_US
Keven Miller
----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank McConnell via cctech" <cctech at classiccmp.org>To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>Sent: Mon 06 May 2019 05:02 PMSubject: Re: VMS versions

On May 6, 2019, at 15:48, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote:>> On Mon, May 6, 2019, 5:17 PM Zane Healy <healyzh at avanthar.com> wrote:>>>> It would be nice to see this through 8.4-2L1 (I think that?s the latest>> version).>>>> Zane>>>> There used to be an article about OpenVMS release history, naturally it's > been wiped.
Likewise, there used to be an article about MPE release history.? Links I know for it are:
<http://community.hpe.com/t5/General/MPE-Release-History/td-p/4075425> (20 Aug 2014)<http://h30499.www3.hp.com/t5/General/MPE-Release-History/td-p/4075425> (28 Apr 2016)
Naturally it?s been wiped, and archive.org *doesn?t* have a copy, even though they have other pages under that t5/General directory in both cases.
-Frank McConnell


From fmc at reanimators.org  Tue May  7 22:25:28 2019
From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 20:25:28 -0700
Subject: MPE release history (was: Re: VMS versions)
In-Reply-To: <E93281FA-870E-432F-8E41-EE407DF6A743@typewritten.org>
References: <CAMFEAABGDY+oJd+_8KpwKN8MfF7BZHN42UELpVwjGZzK8e7ybg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5CD0733A.7000706@pico-systems.com>
 <b4bca029-efa4-d4e2-0050-527092648319@bitsavers.org>
 <6814F94F-B999-4C1A-B603-A799048ED8AF@avanthar.com>
 <17316BA8-A65C-40D8-A57A-69AC4080C1DF@avanthar.com>
 <CAMFEAAARs4fAfwHRaXMh9V30hwaMB=xe2=Q7BfauKVjNbx0DkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <514A94B9-D567-4B4A-A583-C3C723F5F24E@avanthar.com>
 <CAMFEAABrRaJUXgOQhbQOOhTtbrdxax4fUdrutC2xYaEoKMf+Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <fab1d7c6-f721-5921-1639-bd152ddb474e@ntlworld.com>
 <B6ABD144-26EE-4C78-85EA-98F65DFE3A2D@reanimators.org>
 <E93281FA-870E-432F-8E41-EE407DF6A743@typewritten.org>
Message-ID: <5FE94EDF-578D-4920-8525-8BB0AE1843E2@reanimators.org>

On May 6, 2019, at 23:11, r.stricklin via cctalk wrote:
> On May 6, 2019, at 5:02 PM, Frank McConnell via cctech wrote:
>> Likewise, there used to be an article about MPE release history.  Links I know for it are:
>> 
>> <http://community.hpe.com/t5/General/MPE-Release-History/td-p/4075425> (20 Aug 2014)
>> <http://h30499.www3.hp.com/t5/General/MPE-Release-History/td-p/4075425> (28 Apr 2016)
>> 
>> Naturally it?s been wiped, and archive.org *doesn?t* have a copy, even though they have other pages under that t5/General directory in both cases.
> 
> I saved a copy in 2012. There are files attached to some of the posts in that forum thread which collate the results and, amazingly, are still accessible: 
> 
> http://community.hpe.com/hpeb/attachments/hpeb/itrc-19/2080/1/294077.html
> http://community.hpe.com/hpeb/attachments/hpeb/itrc-19/2081/1/336662.htm
> 
> Grab them while you still can.

Thanks.  Grabbed.  Those have most of the information I was missing being able to find easily online: dates and version IDs for classic-3000 MPE releases.  I wish I could still get the discussion text that led up to them because they don?t entirely fit with my memory.

The mid-1980s were kinda busy with MPE IV Q-MIT and its delta releases, which culminated in MPE V/R for the Series II/III and 30/33 (I ran it on a Series III), and MPE V/P which didn?t last very long, and then MPE V/E which had a future.  Sometimes I have trouble remembering what happened when.  I don?t remember more than one MPE V/R release (E.01.00) and it happened some time after MPE IV Q-Delta-2.

-Frank McConnell




From fmc at reanimators.org  Tue May  7 22:25:28 2019
From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 20:25:28 -0700
Subject: MPE release history (was: Re: VMS versions)
In-Reply-To: <E93281FA-870E-432F-8E41-EE407DF6A743@typewritten.org>
References: <CAMFEAABGDY+oJd+_8KpwKN8MfF7BZHN42UELpVwjGZzK8e7ybg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5CD0733A.7000706@pico-systems.com>
 <b4bca029-efa4-d4e2-0050-527092648319@bitsavers.org>
 <6814F94F-B999-4C1A-B603-A799048ED8AF@avanthar.com>
 <17316BA8-A65C-40D8-A57A-69AC4080C1DF@avanthar.com>
 <CAMFEAAARs4fAfwHRaXMh9V30hwaMB=xe2=Q7BfauKVjNbx0DkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <514A94B9-D567-4B4A-A583-C3C723F5F24E@avanthar.com>
 <CAMFEAABrRaJUXgOQhbQOOhTtbrdxax4fUdrutC2xYaEoKMf+Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <fab1d7c6-f721-5921-1639-bd152ddb474e@ntlworld.com>
 <B6ABD144-26EE-4C78-85EA-98F65DFE3A2D@reanimators.org>
 <E93281FA-870E-432F-8E41-EE407DF6A743@typewritten.org>
Message-ID: <5FE94EDF-578D-4920-8525-8BB0AE1843E2@reanimators.org>

On May 6, 2019, at 23:11, r.stricklin via cctalk wrote:
> On May 6, 2019, at 5:02 PM, Frank McConnell via cctech wrote:
>> Likewise, there used to be an article about MPE release history.  Links I know for it are:
>> 
>> <http://community.hpe.com/t5/General/MPE-Release-History/td-p/4075425> (20 Aug 2014)
>> <http://h30499.www3.hp.com/t5/General/MPE-Release-History/td-p/4075425> (28 Apr 2016)
>> 
>> Naturally it?s been wiped, and archive.org *doesn?t* have a copy, even though they have other pages under that t5/General directory in both cases.
> 
> I saved a copy in 2012. There are files attached to some of the posts in that forum thread which collate the results and, amazingly, are still accessible: 
> 
> http://community.hpe.com/hpeb/attachments/hpeb/itrc-19/2080/1/294077.html
> http://community.hpe.com/hpeb/attachments/hpeb/itrc-19/2081/1/336662.htm
> 
> Grab them while you still can.

Thanks.  Grabbed.  Those have most of the information I was missing being able to find easily online: dates and version IDs for classic-3000 MPE releases.  I wish I could still get the discussion text that led up to them because they don?t entirely fit with my memory.

The mid-1980s were kinda busy with MPE IV Q-MIT and its delta releases, which culminated in MPE V/R for the Series II/III and 30/33 (I ran it on a Series III), and MPE V/P which didn?t last very long, and then MPE V/E which had a future.  Sometimes I have trouble remembering what happened when.  I don?t remember more than one MPE V/R release (E.01.00) and it happened some time after MPE IV Q-Delta-2.

-Frank McConnell




From steven at malikoff.com  Tue May  7 23:20:58 2019
From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com)
Date: Wed, 8 May 2019 14:20:58 +1000
Subject: IBM 4506 Digital TV display unit (System 360 peripheral)
Message-ID: <2cfdabb974a71120f6fc2de27a6ff3bc.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>

I was going through some items of my fathers-in-law and found a photocopy of a 1972 conference paper that
mentions the IBM 4506 Digital TV display unit being used by reporters and editors at the New York Times.
These and other terminals (2741 I/O selectric, 2265 VDU) were connected to a 360/40. Apparently they could
take a TV camera input as well as output from the Mod 40, and had a keyboard.

I found the article pdf online, it was 'System quality through structured programming' by FT Baker, 1972 at
https://www.computer.org/csdl/proceedings/afips/1972/5080/00/50800339.pdf

My google-fu hasn't found any picture of the IBM 4506 or even a reference outside this article, and I'm mildly
curious as to what they looked like. Anyone?

Steve.


From davidkcollins2 at gmail.com  Wed May  8 03:07:21 2019
From: davidkcollins2 at gmail.com (davidkcollins2 at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 8 May 2019 18:07:21 +1000
Subject: MPE release history (was: Re: VMS versions)
In-Reply-To: <5FE94EDF-578D-4920-8525-8BB0AE1843E2@reanimators.org>
References: <CAMFEAABGDY+oJd+_8KpwKN8MfF7BZHN42UELpVwjGZzK8e7ybg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5CD0733A.7000706@pico-systems.com>
 <b4bca029-efa4-d4e2-0050-527092648319@bitsavers.org>
 <6814F94F-B999-4C1A-B603-A799048ED8AF@avanthar.com>
 <17316BA8-A65C-40D8-A57A-69AC4080C1DF@avanthar.com>
 <CAMFEAAARs4fAfwHRaXMh9V30hwaMB=xe2=Q7BfauKVjNbx0DkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <514A94B9-D567-4B4A-A583-C3C723F5F24E@avanthar.com>
 <CAMFEAABrRaJUXgOQhbQOOhTtbrdxax4fUdrutC2xYaEoKMf+Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <fab1d7c6-f721-5921-1639-bd152ddb474e@ntlworld.com>
 <B6ABD144-26EE-4C78-85EA-98F65DFE3A2D@reanimators.org>
 <E93281FA-870E-432F-8E41-EE407DF6A743@typewritten.org>
 <5FE94EDF-578D-4920-8525-8BB0AE1843E2@reanimators.org>
Message-ID: <009d01d50575$11da0130$358e0390$@gmail.com>

The HP Computer Museum website now has a link to the version history file referenced below.

http://www.hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?content=3000-MPE%20(Software)

Happy to update it if there is more info or corrections. 

David Collins

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Frank McConnell via cctalk
Sent: Wednesday, 8 May 2019 1:25 PM
To: r.stricklin <bear at typewritten.org>; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts <cctech at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: MPE release history (was: Re: VMS versions)

On May 6, 2019, at 23:11, r.stricklin via cctalk wrote:
> On May 6, 2019, at 5:02 PM, Frank McConnell via cctech wrote:
>> Likewise, there used to be an article about MPE release history.  Links I know for it are:
>> 
>> <http://community.hpe.com/t5/General/MPE-Release-History/td-p/4075425
>> > (20 Aug 2014) 
>> <http://h30499.www3.hp.com/t5/General/MPE-Release-History/td-p/407542
>> 5> (28 Apr 2016)
>> 
>> Naturally it?s been wiped, and archive.org *doesn?t* have a copy, even though they have other pages under that t5/General directory in both cases.
> 
> I saved a copy in 2012. There are files attached to some of the posts in that forum thread which collate the results and, amazingly, are still accessible: 
> 
> http://community.hpe.com/hpeb/attachments/hpeb/itrc-19/2080/1/294077.h
> tml 
> http://community.hpe.com/hpeb/attachments/hpeb/itrc-19/2081/1/336662.h
> tm
> 
> Grab them while you still can.

Thanks.  Grabbed.  Those have most of the information I was missing being able to find easily online: dates and version IDs for classic-3000 MPE releases.  I wish I could still get the discussion text that led up to them because they don?t entirely fit with my memory.

The mid-1980s were kinda busy with MPE IV Q-MIT and its delta releases, which culminated in MPE V/R for the Series II/III and 30/33 (I ran it on a Series III), and MPE V/P which didn?t last very long, and then MPE V/E which had a future.  Sometimes I have trouble remembering what happened when.  I don?t remember more than one MPE V/R release (E.01.00) and it happened some time after MPE IV Q-Delta-2.

-Frank McConnell





From davidkcollins2 at gmail.com  Wed May  8 03:07:21 2019
From: davidkcollins2 at gmail.com (davidkcollins2 at gmail.com)
Date: Wed, 8 May 2019 18:07:21 +1000
Subject: MPE release history (was: Re: VMS versions)
In-Reply-To: <5FE94EDF-578D-4920-8525-8BB0AE1843E2@reanimators.org>
References: <CAMFEAABGDY+oJd+_8KpwKN8MfF7BZHN42UELpVwjGZzK8e7ybg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5CD0733A.7000706@pico-systems.com>
 <b4bca029-efa4-d4e2-0050-527092648319@bitsavers.org>
 <6814F94F-B999-4C1A-B603-A799048ED8AF@avanthar.com>
 <17316BA8-A65C-40D8-A57A-69AC4080C1DF@avanthar.com>
 <CAMFEAAARs4fAfwHRaXMh9V30hwaMB=xe2=Q7BfauKVjNbx0DkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <514A94B9-D567-4B4A-A583-C3C723F5F24E@avanthar.com>
 <CAMFEAABrRaJUXgOQhbQOOhTtbrdxax4fUdrutC2xYaEoKMf+Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <fab1d7c6-f721-5921-1639-bd152ddb474e@ntlworld.com>
 <B6ABD144-26EE-4C78-85EA-98F65DFE3A2D@reanimators.org>
 <E93281FA-870E-432F-8E41-EE407DF6A743@typewritten.org>
 <5FE94EDF-578D-4920-8525-8BB0AE1843E2@reanimators.org>
Message-ID: <009d01d50575$11da0130$358e0390$@gmail.com>

The HP Computer Museum website now has a link to the version history file referenced below.

http://www.hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?content=3000-MPE%20(Software)

Happy to update it if there is more info or corrections. 

David Collins

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Frank McConnell via cctalk
Sent: Wednesday, 8 May 2019 1:25 PM
To: r.stricklin <bear at typewritten.org>; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts <cctech at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: MPE release history (was: Re: VMS versions)

On May 6, 2019, at 23:11, r.stricklin via cctalk wrote:
> On May 6, 2019, at 5:02 PM, Frank McConnell via cctech wrote:
>> Likewise, there used to be an article about MPE release history.  Links I know for it are:
>> 
>> <http://community.hpe.com/t5/General/MPE-Release-History/td-p/4075425
>> > (20 Aug 2014) 
>> <http://h30499.www3.hp.com/t5/General/MPE-Release-History/td-p/407542
>> 5> (28 Apr 2016)
>> 
>> Naturally it?s been wiped, and archive.org *doesn?t* have a copy, even though they have other pages under that t5/General directory in both cases.
> 
> I saved a copy in 2012. There are files attached to some of the posts in that forum thread which collate the results and, amazingly, are still accessible: 
> 
> http://community.hpe.com/hpeb/attachments/hpeb/itrc-19/2080/1/294077.h
> tml 
> http://community.hpe.com/hpeb/attachments/hpeb/itrc-19/2081/1/336662.h
> tm
> 
> Grab them while you still can.

Thanks.  Grabbed.  Those have most of the information I was missing being able to find easily online: dates and version IDs for classic-3000 MPE releases.  I wish I could still get the discussion text that led up to them because they don?t entirely fit with my memory.

The mid-1980s were kinda busy with MPE IV Q-MIT and its delta releases, which culminated in MPE V/R for the Series II/III and 30/33 (I ran it on a Series III), and MPE V/P which didn?t last very long, and then MPE V/E which had a future.  Sometimes I have trouble remembering what happened when.  I don?t remember more than one MPE V/R release (E.01.00) and it happened some time after MPE IV Q-Delta-2.

-Frank McConnell





From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net  Wed May  8 08:46:53 2019
From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles)
Date: Wed, 8 May 2019 08:46:53 -0500
Subject: RT-11 doesn't recognize my 3.5" floppy
Message-ID: <BD542F1A291D426985A47B62E295B039@CharlesDellLap>

On 05/07/2019 11:15 AM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> Very interesting , now that you got it to work, what can you use it for?
> Will it be an exchange media with PUTR?
>
> Doug
>
> On 5/6/2019 6:20 PM, Charles via cctalk wrote:
>> I have installed an RQDX3 and the M9058 distribution board in my
>> 11/23+. Since I don't have a 5.25" drive yet, I hooked up a 3.5" HD
>> (1.44 MB) drive from an old PC.
>> After a struggle (which I documented on VCFED's DEC forum), I managed
>> to get all the jumpers and cables set correctly, and now my XXDP
>> diagnostics (ZRQA?? ... ZRQF??) recognize the drive as an RX33 (DU0:,
>> logical drive 0 since no hard disks are attached). It passes all the
>> tests, and I can INIT, DIR, and copy files to it using the limited OS
>> with the XXDP suite. The LED on the RQDX3 blinks once when the drive
>> is accessed. So far so good.
>>
Did you actually test the drive by formatting, reading and writing?

>> But, when I boot the system (with RT-11SJ V5.01), it can't see the
>> drive at all. Attempts to access it result in the command hanging
>> indefinitely, the drive does not select, and the RQDX3 lamp flashes
>> rapidly. SHOW DEV:DU does say that the handler is installed for the
>> correct 172150, 154 location. However, SHOW DEV:DUn where n=[0..3]
>> displays two blank lines then back to the dot prompt.
>>
>> Is my version of RT-11 just too old to recognize an RX-33? If so,
>> what do I need to fix this? Presumably a later DU.SYS?
>> Thanks for any help. Most of my experience is with PDP-8's so this is
>> slow going...
>> -Charles
>>
>

RT11V5 works for me using RQDX3 and the distribution board in the BA23
box assembled as a MicroPDP-11 with RX33
and RD52 (Quantum 31mb).  Never thought much about it other than to make
sure the RX33 was jumpers were correct
and making a dummy panel for the smaller than RX50 drive.

The 11/73 system has the RQDX3 and the signal distribution board (m8058)
out of BA123 to hook up
RD52, RX33, RX23 and never had issues due to addressing devices under RT11.

Is it possible you have a interrupt grant gap between the various boards
and the RQDX?  That would cause a hang.

If you successful it makes using PUTR easier though RX50 works for that
too just smaller.
===============================================================================
Not a hardware or installation problem (once I got everything hooked up 
right, that is)...

As another member helpfully pointed out, 5.04 is the first version of RT11 
that supports RX33. I have 5.01 on my TSX+ RL02 pack.
Once I booted with an RT11XM 5.04 disk, I can format, read and write the 
floppy :)

Now I have to figure out how to upgrade to RT11SJ 5.04 or later without 
bombing the contents of the RL02. Remaking a pack with VTserver is a pain.

Yes, the plan is to use PUTR on an old Windows box that I use with my PDP's.

I'll probably use Front Panel Express to make a nice rack panel for a 3.5" 
and a 5.25" drive, instead of having the bare drive sit on top of the RL02 
in the corporate cabinet ;)


From fmc at reanimators.org  Wed May  8 10:00:44 2019
From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell)
Date: Wed, 8 May 2019 08:00:44 -0700
Subject: MPE release history (was: Re: VMS versions)
In-Reply-To: <009d01d50575$11da0130$358e0390$@gmail.com>
References: <CAMFEAABGDY+oJd+_8KpwKN8MfF7BZHN42UELpVwjGZzK8e7ybg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5CD0733A.7000706@pico-systems.com>
 <b4bca029-efa4-d4e2-0050-527092648319@bitsavers.org>
 <6814F94F-B999-4C1A-B603-A799048ED8AF@avanthar.com>
 <17316BA8-A65C-40D8-A57A-69AC4080C1DF@avanthar.com>
 <CAMFEAAARs4fAfwHRaXMh9V30hwaMB=xe2=Q7BfauKVjNbx0DkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <514A94B9-D567-4B4A-A583-C3C723F5F24E@avanthar.com>
 <CAMFEAABrRaJUXgOQhbQOOhTtbrdxax4fUdrutC2xYaEoKMf+Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <fab1d7c6-f721-5921-1639-bd152ddb474e@ntlworld.com>
 <B6ABD144-26EE-4C78-85EA-98F65DFE3A2D@reanimators.org>
 <E93281FA-870E-432F-8E41-EE407DF6A743@typewritten.org>
 <5FE94EDF-578D-4920-8525-8BB0AE1843E2@reanimators.org>
 <009d01d50575$11da0130$358e0390$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1DA9DC48-9F01-4EBA-9B42-9985C1C0FEF0@reanimators.org>

On May 8, 2019, at 1:07, David Collins via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> The HP Computer Museum website now has a link to the version history file referenced below.
> 
> http://www.hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?content=3000-MPE%20(Software)
> 
> Happy to update it if there is more info or corrections. 

Thanks.  I do think there is something bogus in it: the assertion that MPE V/R was a thing in 1983.  Yes, it was mentioned in an issue of Computer News, but (looking at that via the HP Computer Museum web site too, and thanks for that too) I think that was a statement about the future unbundling of DS/X.25 in MPE V/R.  Also that MPE V/R was a long time in coming.  We ran Q-delta-2 on a Series III for a long time while the Series 64 became a 68 and maybe a 70, but did upgrade it to MPE V/R when that came out.

MPE V/R was ?MPE IV in MPE V drag?.  It had the MPE V name but its internals and system table structures were those of MPE IV.  (We had some home-grown code that looked in the JMAT for the next job number.)

-Frank McConnell


From fmc at reanimators.org  Wed May  8 10:00:44 2019
From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell)
Date: Wed, 8 May 2019 08:00:44 -0700
Subject: MPE release history (was: Re: VMS versions)
In-Reply-To: <009d01d50575$11da0130$358e0390$@gmail.com>
References: <CAMFEAABGDY+oJd+_8KpwKN8MfF7BZHN42UELpVwjGZzK8e7ybg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5CD0733A.7000706@pico-systems.com>
 <b4bca029-efa4-d4e2-0050-527092648319@bitsavers.org>
 <6814F94F-B999-4C1A-B603-A799048ED8AF@avanthar.com>
 <17316BA8-A65C-40D8-A57A-69AC4080C1DF@avanthar.com>
 <CAMFEAAARs4fAfwHRaXMh9V30hwaMB=xe2=Q7BfauKVjNbx0DkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <514A94B9-D567-4B4A-A583-C3C723F5F24E@avanthar.com>
 <CAMFEAABrRaJUXgOQhbQOOhTtbrdxax4fUdrutC2xYaEoKMf+Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <fab1d7c6-f721-5921-1639-bd152ddb474e@ntlworld.com>
 <B6ABD144-26EE-4C78-85EA-98F65DFE3A2D@reanimators.org>
 <E93281FA-870E-432F-8E41-EE407DF6A743@typewritten.org>
 <5FE94EDF-578D-4920-8525-8BB0AE1843E2@reanimators.org>
 <009d01d50575$11da0130$358e0390$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1DA9DC48-9F01-4EBA-9B42-9985C1C0FEF0@reanimators.org>

On May 8, 2019, at 1:07, David Collins via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> The HP Computer Museum website now has a link to the version history file referenced below.
> 
> http://www.hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?content=3000-MPE%20(Software)
> 
> Happy to update it if there is more info or corrections. 

Thanks.  I do think there is something bogus in it: the assertion that MPE V/R was a thing in 1983.  Yes, it was mentioned in an issue of Computer News, but (looking at that via the HP Computer Museum web site too, and thanks for that too) I think that was a statement about the future unbundling of DS/X.25 in MPE V/R.  Also that MPE V/R was a long time in coming.  We ran Q-delta-2 on a Series III for a long time while the Series 64 became a 68 and maybe a 70, but did upgrade it to MPE V/R when that came out.

MPE V/R was ?MPE IV in MPE V drag?.  It had the MPE V name but its internals and system table structures were those of MPE IV.  (We had some home-grown code that looked in the JMAT for the next job number.)

-Frank McConnell


From aek at bitsavers.org  Wed May  8 11:23:53 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Wed, 8 May 2019 09:23:53 -0700
Subject: DLC Company "Cowculator"
In-Reply-To: <c6068b0f-2eac-56e5-2665-7b0373e1cd9c@bitsavers.org>
References: <df1e7cdb-55ed-abbc-9e46-a1cd69010c9d@bitsavers.org>
 <c6068b0f-2eac-56e5-2665-7b0373e1cd9c@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <7104748e-6363-e558-bd6d-b72327f56ba3@bitsavers.org>



On 5/7/19 10:54 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
> On 5/6/19 4:34 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
>> I took a better picture of the panel for this yesterday
>> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dlcCompany/cowculator

Took a bunch more pictures which have been uploaded to bitsavers.
It has a 12 position rotary switch that selects which potentiomenters are active.
There are red and green lights.
The circuit is just a resistor network.


From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net  Wed May  8 12:27:25 2019
From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles)
Date: Wed, 8 May 2019 12:27:25 -0500
Subject: RT-11 doesn't recognize my 3.5" floppy
Message-ID: <94E322CFC72C43579736279FE20C3662@CharlesDellLap>

On 06/05/2019 23:38, John Forecast via cctalk wrote:
> The release notes on bitsavers indicate that the RX33 was not supported 
> until RT-11 V5.04.

>> On May 6, 2019, at 6:20 PM, Charles via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> 
>> wrote:
>>
>> I have installed an RQDX3

>> But, when I boot the system (with RT-11SJ V5.01), it can't see the drive 
>> at all.

Not only was the RX33 not supported until 5.04, there's a bug in the
MSCP DU driver that wasn't fixed until 5.03 (IIRC) or maybe 5.04, which
means nothing on an RQDX3 can be guaranteed to work properly before
that.  It caused me a lot of grief, way back in 1994.

See the files at http://www.dunnington.info/public/RQDX/ and
particularly http://www.dunnington.info/public/RQDX/DUX.TXT if you're
interested.

-- 
Pete
Pete Turnbull
=========================================================================
thanks for the additional info. Will check out the links.

Meanwhile, I found an RK05 image of RT-11 "5.4" on bitsavers, made an RL02 
bootable -SJ image on SIMH, then copied it over to the hardware with 
VTserver.
(I didn't have to wait for the entire 10 MB since the contents were all on 
the first 3 MB anyway and no bad blocks).
The system booted up to a 5.04 prompt and DU0: is fully usable with 2382 
blocks on a 3.5" diskette :)

My TSX+ 6.50 copy also didn't have DU enabled in TSGEN.MAC so I had to 
uncomment that DEVDEF line and reassemble/relink. It's SLOW on my 11/23+... 
we're spoiled with GHz PC's and GB of RAM.
Now I can use the floppy under TSX+ too.

But the generic 3.5" drive in my WinXP box can't successfully emulate an 
3.5" RX33 with PUTR, apparently. (Nor an RX23).
I only get read/write/directory errors after several seconds of head 
activity even with /RX33 and /RT11 switches set.
Time for more reading and maybe drive swapping/tweaking...



From stark at mit.edu  Wed May  8 21:47:56 2019
From: stark at mit.edu (Greg Stark)
Date: Wed, 8 May 2019 22:47:56 -0400
Subject: Greetings
In-Reply-To: <32B6EF86-CA4B-4DDD-9C02-5C3DDC566505@comcast.net>
References: <CAMFEAABeBiL_aD8iUXA2psLz1v9aqOdetN3-u0rkGHp2tAO_nQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <67ff4fb5-7a62-0835-07a4-2cbe0626d565@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAMFEAAA=dcmc=GGnr0GcTr7RN8x8RX08EJQ6M+4oYfMTbudwqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <11961447-0d79-55c6-d1a1-e6373749fdd3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <f64b6f76-01a2-3aa5-aeda-5e62162cf81a@gmail.com>
 <B3E58076-EE58-4CA5-A7F1-574CFEB17F39@kerberos.davies.net.au>
 <7121bc19-a2b2-3491-201c-43b8cdeb14ad@ntlworld.com>
 <8835C611-5C46-4510-BF6D-B4B43BE95BB1@comcast.net>
 <CAALmimnjjVZVxx1xogFS4cjFZ4Z6Y_g7G3czyarVF19eh0aOdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <6D4E050F-AC2D-4F72-9688-0AEB85FFD075@comcast.net>
 <CAALmimkcGMhcmYzwAL+n02PJwcyEABP3-2j_j_VnP7Y=WJieSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <32B6EF86-CA4B-4DDD-9C02-5C3DDC566505@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAM-w4HP8Ko0qb=Q1skOFwzGYAGe3baBAFi0RKk_xWG1GrUuL2g@mail.gmail.com>

I'm just guessing here but I would suspect this had more to do with the
hardware capabilities of the tape system.

Not all tape drives could just pause to wait for more data then resume. If
the data wasn't being steamed fast enough the tape would have to resync
somehow which could even require rewinding and it's possible that was
either unsupported or just unreliable

On Thu., May 2, 2019, 12:41 p.m. Paul Koning via cctalk, <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
>
> > On May 2, 2019, at 10:49 AM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 8:13 AM Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net>
> wrote:
> >>> On May 1, 2019, at 10:58 PM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>> I think those were still true for V3.X.  I know we had a problem back
> >>> then with our backups where someone elevated the priority of the Tape
> >>> ACP over the Disk ACP (because it was faster) that left us with months
> >>> of corrupt backups.
> >>
> >> Wow, that reflects very badly on the engineering involved.  Setting
> priorities wrong might cause things not to get done, or to take too long,
> but it cannot ever be an excuse for data corruption.
> >
> > Thinking back 35 years... it was that someone enabled the backup
> > operator account with SETPRI, allowing the operator to elevate the
> > priority of the script.  What I think was happening was that the
> > script was grabbing buffers from the disk before they were filled and
> > slamming them out to tape.  It definitely cut minutes off the backup
> > time, which is why it happened.
> >
> > I'm sure the VMS wizards hadn't expected a user process to run at
> > priority 31 (IIRC) because anyone with SETPRI _surely_ had the wisdom
> > not to elevate above system processes.
> >
> > Definitely a failure to think of ways users could abuse the system.
> >
> > -ethan
>
> More in particular, it is a design failure, relying on timing hacks rather
> than explicitly and correctly passing ownership of data from producer to
> consumer.
>
>         paul
>
>

From ethan at 757.org  Thu May  9 10:33:52 2019
From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole)
Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 11:33:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Wanted: SCP-301, Seattle Computer Products 8086 Support Board
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1905091132170.10932@users.757.org>


Looking for a SCP-301 S100 board, SCP 8086 Support Board.

Have the CPU board.

Any leads appreciated!


--
: Ethan O'Toole



From vintagecomputersmn at gmail.com  Thu May  9 11:57:19 2019
From: vintagecomputersmn at gmail.com (Mister PDP)
Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 11:57:19 -0500
Subject: Looking for DEC M7264-CB Troubleshooting Documentation
Message-ID: <CAHnoH6yFVQCshW_sNZKanzw9iEUJELgXLtSYya8Rf3D9pfK2_A@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

As part of my H11A project, I am trying to debug my M7264-CB LSI-11 CPU
module. When powered on, the CPU does not respond to the Run/Halt switch
either on the front panel or via the console. I found engineering
schematics for the M7264 online, but I was wondering if any in depth
troubleshooting material existed online (Logic probe points, debugging
steps, etc...).

Thank You, Gavin

From derschjo at gmail.com  Thu May  9 12:14:49 2019
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 10:14:49 -0700
Subject: PDP-11/40 available, Arizona
Message-ID: <CADBZjLaRRU1AMUYW+qy3D4da=t1jXVFpyDtzznkHQtBZ836Fgw@mail.gmail.com>

I have no affiliation with the person who owns these items, I'm merely
relaying information.  These machines were offered to the LCM+L but we've
met our 11/40 quota :).  We figured someone here might be able to provide a
good home, and the seller asked us to pass the offer along.  Contact
information is below:

Email:
kristina.kaur at mac.com

List of items offered:
DEC PDP 11/40 from approx 1973
Other associated equipment may include punch card machine (key punch), tape
drive(s), free standing dot matrix printer, terminals (approx. 12).

Condition of items:
Very good condition. Running or close to running. Most peripherals have
been offline and stored.

How have these items been used and/or stored?:
Running in filtered air. Desert, dry climate.

Extent or weight of these items:
The DEC PDP is 6-8 cabinets.

From edcross at gmail.com  Thu May  9 12:22:45 2019
From: edcross at gmail.com (Eduardo Cruz)
Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 19:22:45 +0200
Subject: PDP-11/40 available, Arizona
In-Reply-To: <CADBZjLaRRU1AMUYW+qy3D4da=t1jXVFpyDtzznkHQtBZ836Fgw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADBZjLaRRU1AMUYW+qy3D4da=t1jXVFpyDtzznkHQtBZ836Fgw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <933402F6-B8CE-4E55-9553-D1A8423FF694@gmail.com>

Im interested. Thx

Sent from my iPhone

> On 9 May 2019, at 19:14, Josh Dersch via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> I have no affiliation with the person who owns these items, I'm merely
> relaying information.  These machines were offered to the LCM+L but we've
> met our 11/40 quota :).  We figured someone here might be able to provide a
> good home, and the seller asked us to pass the offer along.  Contact
> information is below:
> 
> Email:
> kristina.kaur at mac.com
> 
> List of items offered:
> DEC PDP 11/40 from approx 1973
> Other associated equipment may include punch card machine (key punch), tape
> drive(s), free standing dot matrix printer, terminals (approx. 12).
> 
> Condition of items:
> Very good condition. Running or close to running. Most peripherals have
> been offline and stored.
> 
> How have these items been used and/or stored?:
> Running in filtered air. Desert, dry climate.
> 
> Extent or weight of these items:
> The DEC PDP is 6-8 cabinets.

From derschjo at gmail.com  Thu May  9 12:24:18 2019
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 10:24:18 -0700
Subject: PDP-11/40 available, Arizona
In-Reply-To: <933402F6-B8CE-4E55-9553-D1A8423FF694@gmail.com>
References: <CADBZjLaRRU1AMUYW+qy3D4da=t1jXVFpyDtzznkHQtBZ836Fgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <933402F6-B8CE-4E55-9553-D1A8423FF694@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADBZjLaviMsBRLv_WC69MicvsuYuTiuZed65xLNUF0wUUKvD=A@mail.gmail.com>

As I said, I'm merely relaying information: Contact information for the
owner is in my original e-mail.

On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 10:22 AM Eduardo Cruz <edcross at gmail.com> wrote:

> Im interested. Thx
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On 9 May 2019, at 19:14, Josh Dersch via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > I have no affiliation with the person who owns these items, I'm merely
> > relaying information.  These machines were offered to the LCM+L but we've
> > met our 11/40 quota :).  We figured someone here might be able to
> provide a
> > good home, and the seller asked us to pass the offer along.  Contact
> > information is below:
> >
> > Email:
> > kristina.kaur at mac.com
> >
> > List of items offered:
> > DEC PDP 11/40 from approx 1973
> > Other associated equipment may include punch card machine (key punch),
> tape
> > drive(s), free standing dot matrix printer, terminals (approx. 12).
> >
> > Condition of items:
> > Very good condition. Running or close to running. Most peripherals have
> > been offline and stored.
> >
> > How have these items been used and/or stored?:
> > Running in filtered air. Desert, dry climate.
> >
> > Extent or weight of these items:
> > The DEC PDP is 6-8 cabinets.
>

From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu May  9 12:30:56 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 09 May 2019 12:30:56 -0500
Subject: Looking for DEC M7264-CB Troubleshooting Documentation
In-Reply-To: <CAHnoH6yFVQCshW_sNZKanzw9iEUJELgXLtSYya8Rf3D9pfK2_A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHnoH6yFVQCshW_sNZKanzw9iEUJELgXLtSYya8Rf3D9pfK2_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5CD463D0.7080908@pico-systems.com>

On 05/09/2019 11:57 AM, Mister PDP via cctalk wrote:
> Hello,
>
> As part of my H11A project, I am trying to debug my M7264-CB LSI-11 CPU
> module. When powered on, the CPU does not respond to the Run/Halt switch
> either on the front panel or via the console. I found engineering
> schematics for the M7264 online, but I was wondering if any in depth
> troubleshooting material existed online (Logic probe points, debugging
> steps, etc...).
>
>
Well, first thing to check is that the bus is properly 
terminated, and that memory requests are being properly 
acknowledged.

Jon

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu May  9 12:41:46 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu,  9 May 2019 13:41:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Looking for DEC M7264-CB Troubleshooting Documentation
Message-ID: <20190509174146.5578118C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Mister PDP

    > I was wondering if any in depth troubleshooting material existed online 

I am not aware of any; I would be glad to be corrected. Unlike the early
gneration of UNIBUS CPU's, these generally weren't intended for internal
fault analysis and repair - module swapping and replacement was the
intended approach.

The LSI-11 manual (EK-LSI11-TM-003) has a tiny bit of detail on how the
CPU board works (pp. 4-3 - 4-13), it's probably worth reading that before
diving into the CPU board internals.

Things I'd check to start with - all the power voltages, and then the clocks.
If those are all OK... BTW, for any serious fault analysis on these things,
you'll need a 'scope/logic analyzer.

    > When powered on, the CPU does not respond to the Run/Halt switch either
    > on the front panel or via the console.

When you say 'does not respond', what's the symptom? Is the console ODT not
running (which could have any number of causes)? The whole system has to be
more or less running for ODT to work. I'd start elsewhere - e.g. does your
mounting box have the 'run' light? (It's driven by an output of the CPU
card.) Does that display any activity?

Time to look at e.g. BSYNC, etc to see if the CPU is trying to read/write the
console registers.

	Noel

From vintagecomputersmn at gmail.com  Thu May  9 13:35:51 2019
From: vintagecomputersmn at gmail.com (Mister PDP)
Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 13:35:51 -0500
Subject: Looking for DEC M7264-CB Troubleshooting Documentation
In-Reply-To: <20190509174146.5578118C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190509174146.5578118C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAHnoH6xKgZji+F7kWq+DNrHwsXjF6Tfaw62ybLf0+BvkXYn14A@mail.gmail.com>

I was referring to both the ODT prompt and the run light. I get nothing on
the console and the ?Run? light does not come on when the switch is toggled.

On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 12:41 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>     > From: Mister PDP
>
>     > I was wondering if any in depth troubleshooting material existed
> online
>
> I am not aware of any; I would be glad to be corrected. Unlike the early
> gneration of UNIBUS CPU's, these generally weren't intended for internal
> fault analysis and repair - module swapping and replacement was the
> intended approach.
>
> The LSI-11 manual (EK-LSI11-TM-003) has a tiny bit of detail on how the
> CPU board works (pp. 4-3 - 4-13), it's probably worth reading that before
> diving into the CPU board internals.
>
> Things I'd check to start with - all the power voltages, and then the
> clocks.
> If those are all OK... BTW, for any serious fault analysis on these things,
> you'll need a 'scope/logic analyzer.
>
>     > When powered on, the CPU does not respond to the Run/Halt switch
> either
>     > on the front panel or via the console.
>
> When you say 'does not respond', what's the symptom? Is the console ODT not
> running (which could have any number of causes)? The whole system has to be
> more or less running for ODT to work. I'd start elsewhere - e.g. does your
> mounting box have the 'run' light? (It's driven by an output of the CPU
> card.) Does that display any activity?
>
> Time to look at e.g. BSYNC, etc to see if the CPU is trying to read/write
> the
> console registers.
>
>         Noel
>

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu May  9 14:02:48 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu,  9 May 2019 15:02:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Looking for DEC M7264-CB Troubleshooting Documentation
Message-ID: <20190509190248.2A5B118C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Mister PDP

    > the 'Run' light does not come on when the switch is toggled

Yeah, it wouldn't come on full unless it somehow fell into a loop of some
kind - very unlikely. (Does that model LSI-11 have the on-board memory? I'm
too lazy to look it up! :-) And what do you have the CPU jumpered to do on
power-up? (ODT, 173000, etc.)

But I would expect to see a brief flash. (Note: I don't have an LSI-11
plugged in to check this, I'm going by memory - the -11/23 certainly does the
brief flash; if need be, I can pull out an -11/2 and plug it in, once I
figure out if they are safe in Q22 backplanes.)

I'd check the power voltages, and the clocks on the CPU board, and then look
at BSYNC, etc to see if there's any hint that the ODT ucode is trying to read
the console registers. No activity on BSYNC -> the ucode's not running.

'Small' QBUS systems - i.e. a single backplane - are OK to run with no
termination on the far end of the bus (the CPU board includes pullups for
that end), that shouldn't be an issue.

	Noel

From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu May  9 18:50:31 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 16:50:31 -0700
Subject: Looking for DEC M7264-CB Troubleshooting Documentation
In-Reply-To: <CAHnoH6yFVQCshW_sNZKanzw9iEUJELgXLtSYya8Rf3D9pfK2_A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHnoH6yFVQCshW_sNZKanzw9iEUJELgXLtSYya8Rf3D9pfK2_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0293534f-7fee-924e-c9a4-863e93bfb7dd@bitsavers.org>



On 5/9/19 9:57 AM, Mister PDP via cctalk wrote:
> I was wondering if any in depth
> troubleshooting material existed

I'd start with the description in WD1600 chip set docs to see if
the basic microprocesor is running

http://bitsavers.org/pdf/westernDigital/MCP-1600/MCP-1600_Users_Manual_Oct77.pdf



From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net  Thu May  9 22:03:54 2019
From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles)
Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 22:03:54 -0500
Subject: Bug in PUTR?
Message-ID: <AD2D9A85E216497D9DFACFA6AAA4FBB9@CharlesDellLap>

I'm having trouble copying files from my PDP-11 (RT-11 format) into an old 
Windows box using the last version of PUTR.
It appears that WinXP does strange things with the hardware (3.5" 1.44 MB 
drives aren't actually RX33's although my RQDX3 controller believes they 
are).
So I made an MS-DOS boot disk and run PUTR directly on MS-DOS (instead of 
the WinXP DOS window). Unfortunately MS-DOS 6.22 can't recognize my hard 
drive since it's NTFS-formatted, so it all has to be done in floppies.

Both WinXP and MS-DOS know that A: and B: are two separate drives. Likewise 
the BIOS settings. I can copy files in DOS and Windows back and forth 
between the two drives.
And I can MOUNT B: as a logical device DU0: (or without a logical device 
name, as B: /RX33 /RT11), and read its directory.
But when I try to copy a file from A: to DU0:, the B: drive light flashes 
briefly, and then PUTR tries to write over the A: drive (blocked by the 
write- protect tab once I wised up)!

So how on earth can the BIOS, MS-DOS and WinXP all know that A: and B: are 
two separate drives, but PUTR tries to write to A: even though the command 
is to write B: ??

I also tried switching the PUTR disk into B: and the RT-11 formatted disk to 
drive A:. Same problem (tries to write over the source disk which is now B: 
even though the output filespec is clearly A). I had a look at the code but 
nothing's leaping out at me. Although it's been many years since I wrote any 
8086 code...



From bobalan at sbcglobal.net  Fri May 10 00:49:09 2019
From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom)
Date: Thu, 9 May 2019 22:49:09 -0700
Subject: DEC disc pack inspection unit on eBay
Message-ID: <98aa5a4e-e1e7-9a2f-4e40-0e451ceecfc3@sbcglobal.net>

There's a mis-categorized? disk pack inspection unit up on eBay. Might 
be of use to someone.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Early-Digital-Equiment-Corp-DEC-Portable-Briefcase-Paper-Tape-Reader-Punch/303149714641?hash=item4695218cd1:g:ks8AAOSwEVZc1PQo

Bob

-- 
Vintage computers and electronics
www.dvq.com
www.tekmuseum.com
www.decmuseum.org


From steven at malikoff.com  Fri May 10 01:29:23 2019
From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 16:29:23 +1000
Subject: IBM 1052 keyboardless printer on eBay
Message-ID: <46b166a122b56c50f56a44a47c212895.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>

Sadly, way out of my price range. I'd dearly love it though:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-1052-Selectric-Keyboardless-Golf-Ball-Console-Printer/333186998167

Seems to be missing the 1052 / 2741 platen knobs unique to the printer-keyboards and I/O Selectrics BUT
if anyone is interested I have almost finished the CAD model for this (measured from the 2741 platen I
still have). They just need to be 3D printed off and the aluminium bosses machined and tapped:
http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/500/IBM_1052_and_2741_platen_knob.jpg

Steve.


From useddec at gmail.com  Fri May 10 02:05:37 2019
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 02:05:37 -0500
Subject: Looking for DEC M7264-CB Troubleshooting Documentation
In-Reply-To: <0293534f-7fee-924e-c9a4-863e93bfb7dd@bitsavers.org>
References: <CAHnoH6yFVQCshW_sNZKanzw9iEUJELgXLtSYya8Rf3D9pfK2_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <0293534f-7fee-924e-c9a4-863e93bfb7dd@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuNPKNg3sv4BjseR7p_ofubn7diPn_G9XY19ZeOSTXEpuQ@mail.gmail.com>

If you are running a BA11-M box (3 1/2 inches tall), make sure the 2 fans
are running up to  speed. They slow as the fans go bad and can cause all
kinds of H780 power supply  and logic problems. When you shut the box the
fans should spin for a few seconds. If they stop within a second, change it.

Paul

On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 6:58 PM Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

>
>
> On 5/9/19 9:57 AM, Mister PDP via cctalk wrote:
> > I was wondering if any in depth
> > troubleshooting material existed
>
> I'd start with the description in WD1600 chip set docs to see if
> the basic microprocesor is running
>
>
> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/westernDigital/MCP-1600/MCP-1600_Users_Manual_Oct77.pdf
>
>
>

From lproven at gmail.com  Fri May 10 05:15:48 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 12:15:48 +0200
Subject: Bug in PUTR?
In-Reply-To: <AD2D9A85E216497D9DFACFA6AAA4FBB9@CharlesDellLap>
References: <AD2D9A85E216497D9DFACFA6AAA4FBB9@CharlesDellLap>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGZ39pyTPk_0zn=jYHQ-==uki7s-KGaz2d+Yt0JunmWHg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 10 May 2019 at 05:04, Charles via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> So I made an MS-DOS boot disk and run PUTR directly on MS-DOS (instead of
> the WinXP DOS window). Unfortunately MS-DOS 6.22 can't recognize my hard
> drive since it's NTFS-formatted, so it all has to be done in floppies.

Options:

* reinstall your XP box and make it dual-boot with DOS. This is easy;
make a primary FAT16 partition, put DOS in it in the usual way, and
make an extended partition with a logical drive for XP.

* Split some space off the end of your XP hard disk, partition it as a
logical drive in an extended partition, format it with FAT16; then
you'll have hard disk space you can write from DOS.

* install NTFS drivers on your DOS boot disk.

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From pbirkel at gmail.com  Fri May 10 06:14:23 2019
From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 07:14:23 -0400
Subject: HP 1000 A900 ("Magic") Questions
Message-ID: <0ef501d50721$861d4cc0$9257e640$@gmail.com>

Aficionados;

 

I'm interested in acquiring an HP1000 A900, in any form-factor.
(http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=594)

 

Basic need would be a chassis/backplane/PS and minimal set of
CPU/memory/HPIB-controller/terminal-IO PCA, however I'd be interested in
simply acquiring a PCA-set and I'll work the chassis/backplane/PS
separately.  Even single PCAs would give me a helpful push forwards.

 

And I need to stick to my hobby (beer") budget.

 

I'm located in Maryland, USA, and pretty sure that the cost of overseas
shipping would be ghastly for a chassis.  But maybe not as bad for the tower
configuration as for the rack-mount.

 

If I understand correctly, the CPU consists of:

 

12201A A900 Sequencer Card

12202A A900 Data Path Card

12203A A900 Cache Controller

12204A A900 Memory Controller

12220A 768KB RAM  (Or I presume 12103D 1MB, 12221A 3 MB, or 12221B 8 MB.)

 

I imagine that I'll need to synthesize my own OTT "frontplane" for the
memory.

 

12009A HP-IB Controller 
12040D Asynchronous Multiplexer interface board

 

Thank you for your insights, and opportunities (I hope),

 

paul

(offlist at pbirkel at gmail.com)

 


From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net  Fri May 10 10:04:18 2019
From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 10:04:18 -0500
Subject: Possible PUTR bug?
Message-ID: <28CD0B2A7EAA4F96B75DB2994DD0C363@CharlesDellLap>

John Wilson confirmed that his program was designed to work with one floppy 
and an HDD. He says strange things happen if one tries to use two floppy 
drives instead... just as I found ;)
I removed the second floppy drive, dug out an old 540 MB hard drive (with 
Win 95 on it) and hooked it up to the PC. Started Win95, then "Restart the
computer in MS-DOS mode", copied PUTR to the C: drive and started it.

PUTR now works perfectly, transferring files in both directions to an the 
emulated RX33 (3.5" floppy). The PDP-11 can read and write those disks on
its generic 3.5" floppy "RX33", too. :)

Now I just have to figure out the PC partitions/hard drives to make using 
PUTR as simple as possible.


From lproven at gmail.com  Fri May 10 10:06:45 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 17:06:45 +0200
Subject: Possible PUTR bug?
In-Reply-To: <28CD0B2A7EAA4F96B75DB2994DD0C363@CharlesDellLap>
References: <28CD0B2A7EAA4F96B75DB2994DD0C363@CharlesDellLap>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFFrffZUAzFCbBtprPYbNRWO7ObKfoAB5SocwZ1RJ35zw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 10 May 2019 at 17:04, Charles via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> John Wilson confirmed that his program was designed to work with one floppy
> and an HDD. He says strange things happen if one tries to use two floppy
> drives instead... just as I found ;)

Aha, OK. That's odd but if that's a restriction then fair enough.

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From wilson at dbit.com  Fri May 10 10:28:46 2019
From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 11:28:46 -0400
Subject: Possible PUTR bug?
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFFrffZUAzFCbBtprPYbNRWO7ObKfoAB5SocwZ1RJ35zw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <28CD0B2A7EAA4F96B75DB2994DD0C363@CharlesDellLap>
 <CAMTenCFFrffZUAzFCbBtprPYbNRWO7ObKfoAB5SocwZ1RJ35zw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190510152846.GA26524@dbit.dbit.com>

On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 05:06:45PM +0200, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
>On Fri, 10 May 2019 at 17:04, Charles via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> John Wilson confirmed that his program was designed to work with one floppy
>> and an HDD. He says strange things happen if one tries to use two floppy
>> drives instead... just as I found ;)
>
>Aha, OK. That's odd but if that's a restriction then fair enough.

The restriction isn't supposed to be only one FDD at a time (someone
please tell me if they're seeing that), it's that the FDC can't be shared
between the BIOS and PUTR's internal FDC driver.  So you *should* be able
to mount two different alien disks on two different FDDs, but you definitely
can't have one alien floppy *and* one DOS floppy.

(Sorry I missed this thread until now!)

John Wilson
D Bit

From w2hx at w2hx.com  Fri May 10 10:59:42 2019
From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 15:59:42 +0000
Subject: DEC disc pack inspection unit on eBay
In-Reply-To: <98aa5a4e-e1e7-9a2f-4e40-0e451ceecfc3@sbcglobal.net>
References: <98aa5a4e-e1e7-9a2f-4e40-0e451ceecfc3@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <1557503984841.39375@w2hx.com>

What is this used for? RL02's or something? and what does it do?
________________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, May 10, 2019 1:49 AM
To: cctalk
Subject: DEC disc pack inspection unit on eBay

There's a mis-categorized  disk pack inspection unit up on eBay. Might
be of use to someone.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Early-Digital-Equiment-Corp-DEC-Portable-Briefcase-Paper-Tape-Reader-Punch/303149714641?hash=item4695218cd1:g:ks8AAOSwEVZc1PQo

Bob

--
Vintage computers and electronics
www.dvq.com
www.tekmuseum.com
www.decmuseum.org


From ggs at shiresoft.com  Fri May 10 11:23:00 2019
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 09:23:00 -0700
Subject: DEC disc pack inspection unit on eBay
In-Reply-To: <1557503984841.39375@w2hx.com>
References: <98aa5a4e-e1e7-9a2f-4e40-0e451ceecfc3@sbcglobal.net>
 <1557503984841.39375@w2hx.com>
Message-ID: <3FE9F3A2-78B9-448B-9A7F-8D03D1C2752E@shiresoft.com>

From looking at the accessories and the spindle, I believe that this is for examining multi-platter packs such has those for RP03/4 and RP06 and the like.  It?s a useful find for folks who have those drives and packs and wish to actually use them.  ;-)

TTFN - Guy

> On May 10, 2019, at 8:59 AM, W2HX via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> What is this used for? RL02's or something? and what does it do?
> ________________________________________
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Friday, May 10, 2019 1:49 AM
> To: cctalk
> Subject: DEC disc pack inspection unit on eBay
> 
> There's a mis-categorized  disk pack inspection unit up on eBay. Might
> be of use to someone.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Early-Digital-Equiment-Corp-DEC-Portable-Briefcase-Paper-Tape-Reader-Punch/303149714641?hash=item4695218cd1:g:ks8AAOSwEVZc1PQo
> 
> Bob
> 
> --
> Vintage computers and electronics
> www.dvq.com
> www.tekmuseum.com
> www.decmuseum.org
> 


From abacos_98 at yahoo.com  Fri May 10 11:31:51 2019
From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 16:31:51 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: DEC disc pack inspection unit on eBay
In-Reply-To: <3FE9F3A2-78B9-448B-9A7F-8D03D1C2752E@shiresoft.com>
References: <98aa5a4e-e1e7-9a2f-4e40-0e451ceecfc3@sbcglobal.net>
 <1557503984841.39375@w2hx.com>
 <3FE9F3A2-78B9-448B-9A7F-8D03D1C2752E@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <825431771.3228984.1557505911194@mail.yahoo.com>

 I could not find it in my DEC maintenance aids handbook.
I would agree that it is definitely for multi platter drives.
    On Friday, May 10, 2019, 12:23:23 PM EDT, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:  
 
 From looking at the accessories and the spindle, I believe that this is for examining multi-platter packs such has those for RP03/4 and RP06 and the like.? It?s a useful find for folks who have those drives and packs and wish to actually use them.? ;-)

TTFN - Guy

> On May 10, 2019, at 8:59 AM, W2HX via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> What is this used for? RL02's or something? and what does it do?
> ________________________________________
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Friday, May 10, 2019 1:49 AM
> To: cctalk
> Subject: DEC disc pack inspection unit on eBay
> 
> There's a mis-categorized? disk pack inspection unit up on eBay. Might
> be of use to someone.
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Early-Digital-Equiment-Corp-DEC-Portable-Briefcase-Paper-Tape-Reader-Punch/303149714641?hash=item4695218cd1:g:ks8AAOSwEVZc1PQo
> 
> Bob
> 
> --
> Vintage computers and electronics
> www.dvq.com
> www.tekmuseum.com
> www.decmuseum.org
> 
  

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Fri May 10 11:42:46 2019
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 12:42:46 -0400
Subject: DEC disc pack inspection unit on eBay
In-Reply-To: <825431771.3228984.1557505911194@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <98aa5a4e-e1e7-9a2f-4e40-0e451ceecfc3@sbcglobal.net>
 <1557503984841.39375@w2hx.com>
 <3FE9F3A2-78B9-448B-9A7F-8D03D1C2752E@shiresoft.com>
 <825431771.3228984.1557505911194@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B532BC60-690A-4743-A8A0-C25DED1D606B@comcast.net>

I'm not sure if the hub is an RP04 style or RP03 style.  Yes, the accessories say big pack.  Given that there is also a tool for looking at 5-ish platter packs, RP04 and later (with the smaller tool used for RM03 packs) is plausible.

I remember seeing one of these in use, for inspection not cleaning.  The only pack I ever saw cleaned in the field was an 1311 pack that had been splashed by leaking hydraulic fluid from the head actuator.  Cleaned off fine with isopropyl alcohol.

	paul

> On May 10, 2019, at 12:31 PM, Brian Roth via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> I could not find it in my DEC maintenance aids handbook.
> I would agree that it is definitely for multi platter drives.
>    On Friday, May 10, 2019, 12:23:23 PM EDT, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:  
> 
> From looking at the accessories and the spindle, I believe that this is for examining multi-platter packs such has those for RP03/4 and RP06 and the like.  It?s a useful find for folks who have those drives and packs and wish to actually use them.  ;-)


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri May 10 11:49:12 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 09:49:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Possible PUTR bug?
In-Reply-To: <20190510152846.GA26524@dbit.dbit.com>
References: <28CD0B2A7EAA4F96B75DB2994DD0C363@CharlesDellLap>
 <CAMTenCFFrffZUAzFCbBtprPYbNRWO7ObKfoAB5SocwZ1RJ35zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190510152846.GA26524@dbit.dbit.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905100946090.7563@shell.lmi.net>

DOS had provision for a RAMDISK
(requires a line in CONFIG.SYS for the driver)

OR, add a FAT16 partition to your NTFS drive.  There is almost always a 
few MB of unallocated space.




From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri May 10 11:53:32 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 09:53:32 -0700
Subject: DEC disc pack inspection unit on eBay
In-Reply-To: <B532BC60-690A-4743-A8A0-C25DED1D606B@comcast.net>
References: <98aa5a4e-e1e7-9a2f-4e40-0e451ceecfc3@sbcglobal.net>
 <1557503984841.39375@w2hx.com>
 <3FE9F3A2-78B9-448B-9A7F-8D03D1C2752E@shiresoft.com>
 <825431771.3228984.1557505911194@mail.yahoo.com>
 <B532BC60-690A-4743-A8A0-C25DED1D606B@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <cefb1874-f195-a4e1-3ed7-09093c96341e@bitsavers.org>



On 5/10/19 9:42 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:

> I remember seeing one of these in use, for inspection not cleaning.

correct.

I see the illuminator, but I don't see the eyepiece you use for surface inspection
in there. There should be a black tube with a lens and a right-angle mirror.




From paulkoning at comcast.net  Fri May 10 12:06:33 2019
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 13:06:33 -0400
Subject: DEC disc pack inspection unit on eBay
In-Reply-To: <cefb1874-f195-a4e1-3ed7-09093c96341e@bitsavers.org>
References: <98aa5a4e-e1e7-9a2f-4e40-0e451ceecfc3@sbcglobal.net>
 <1557503984841.39375@w2hx.com>
 <3FE9F3A2-78B9-448B-9A7F-8D03D1C2752E@shiresoft.com>
 <825431771.3228984.1557505911194@mail.yahoo.com>
 <B532BC60-690A-4743-A8A0-C25DED1D606B@comcast.net>
 <cefb1874-f195-a4e1-3ed7-09093c96341e@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <1560806F-0AD9-46B5-98E1-6C3A7CD3C713@comcast.net>



> On May 10, 2019, at 12:53 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 5/10/19 9:42 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> I remember seeing one of these in use, for inspection not cleaning.
> 
> correct.
> 
> I see the illuminator, but I don't see the eyepiece you use for surface inspection
> in there. There should be a black tube with a lens and a right-angle mirror.

The right-angle mirrors are in those comb shaped accessories.  Those are a set of long skinny mirrors that can swivel.  You insert that device between the platters, turn the mirror to show the surface of interest, and spin the pack to look.

I don't remember them being used with a telescope to magnify the view.  I suppose you could use a standard microscope designed for large spacing between lens and object.

	paul


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri May 10 13:23:53 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 14:23:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Extra copy of "LSI-11, PDP-11/03 User's Manual"
Message-ID: <20190510182353.6D46118C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

As a result of an inventory error on my part, I wound up with an extra copy
of "LSI-11, PDP-11/03 User's Manual" (EK-LSI11-TM-003).

I'd like to pass it along to someone, provided I'm reimbursed _most_ of
my eBait expenditure on it (it was not, alas, cheap). Anyone interested?

	Noel

From cctalk at emailtoilet.com  Fri May 10 14:45:10 2019
From: cctalk at emailtoilet.com (cctalk at emailtoilet.com)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 12:45:10 -0700
Subject: What is this?
Message-ID: <001c01d50768$e188cd90$a49a68b0$@emailtoilet.com>

http://www.myimagecollection.com/webpics/unknownmachine.jpg

 

The model number looks like 9603.  Can't tell for sure.  The box in back has
the 14xx flavor.


From cclist at sydex.com  Fri May 10 15:13:19 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 13:13:19 -0700
Subject: What is this?
In-Reply-To: <001c01d50768$e188cd90$a49a68b0$@emailtoilet.com>
References: <001c01d50768$e188cd90$a49a68b0$@emailtoilet.com>
Message-ID: <479f821b-0e54-73b8-fb62-f6cfc11e8f61@sydex.com>

On 5/10/19 12:45 PM, Donald via cctalk wrote:
> http://www.myimagecollection.com/webpics/unknownmachine.jpg
> 
>  
> 
> The model number looks like 9603.  Can't tell for sure.  The box in back has
> the 14xx flavor.

IBM 9603 WALNUT - Microfilm image storage and retrieval system.   Read
about it on PDF page 13 here:

http://nopr.niscair.res.in/bitstream/123456789/28351/1/ALIS%2014%282%29%2062-75.pdf

Circa 1960.

There's more on the web; just search on "IBM WALNUT"

--Chuck

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri May 10 16:16:25 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 14:16:25 -0700
Subject: What is this?
In-Reply-To: <479f821b-0e54-73b8-fb62-f6cfc11e8f61@sydex.com>
References: <001c01d50768$e188cd90$a49a68b0$@emailtoilet.com>
 <479f821b-0e54-73b8-fb62-f6cfc11e8f61@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <1b0bf549-fe4e-99fb-bcf7-f168011d7441@sydex.com>

Found a bit more detail on WALNUT:

https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/Legacy/TN/nbstechnicalnote157.pdf

See page 86.   Includes some B&W photos, including one of the unit that
you show.

Was WALNUT ever used outside of the CIA?

--Chuck

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri May 10 16:57:08 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 14:57:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: What is this?
In-Reply-To: <1b0bf549-fe4e-99fb-bcf7-f168011d7441@sydex.com>
References: <001c01d50768$e188cd90$a49a68b0$@emailtoilet.com>
 <479f821b-0e54-73b8-fb62-f6cfc11e8f61@sydex.com>
 <1b0bf549-fe4e-99fb-bcf7-f168011d7441@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905101453570.7563@shell.lmi.net>

On Fri, 10 May 2019, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> Found a bit more detail on WALNUT:
> https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/Legacy/TN/nbstechnicalnote157.pdf
> See page 86.   Includes some B&W photos, including one of the unit that
> you show.
> Was WALNUT ever used outside of the CIA?

With no first-hand knowledge, I would assume that NSA also used such.

Half a century ago, when I worked at The National Space Science Data 
Center (NASA, Greenbelt) we dealt with a lot of data.  But that is like a 
floppy compared to NSA, especially the Utah Data Center!



From glen.slick at gmail.com  Fri May 10 12:33:41 2019
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 10:33:41 -0700
Subject: HP 1000 A900 ("Magic") Questions
In-Reply-To: <0ef501d50721$861d4cc0$9257e640$@gmail.com>
References: <0ef501d50721$861d4cc0$9257e640$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwJbh6AYBgLHnA3EpScepCEpwe+EKiHELc-Ui3anMXtgVg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 4:14 AM Paul Birkel via cctech
<cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Aficionados;
>
> I'm interested in acquiring an HP1000 A900, in any form-factor.
> (http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=594)
>
> Basic need would be a chassis/backplane/PS and minimal set of
> CPU/memory/HPIB-controller/terminal-IO PCA, however I'd be interested in
> simply acquiring a PCA-set and I'll work the chassis/backplane/PS
> separately.  Even single PCAs would give me a helpful push forwards.
>
> And I need to stick to my hobby (beer") budget.
>
> I'm located in Maryland, USA, and pretty sure that the cost of overseas
> shipping would be ghastly for a chassis.  But maybe not as bad for the tower
> configuration as for the rack-mount.
>
> If I understand correctly, the CPU consists of:
>
> 12201A A900 Sequencer Card
> 12202A A900 Data Path Card
> 12203A A900 Cache Controller
> 12204A A900 Memory Controller
> 12220A 768KB RAM  (Or I presume 12103D 1MB, 12221A 3 MB, or 12221B 8 MB.)
>
> I imagine that I'll need to synthesize my own OTT "frontplane" for the
> memory.
>
> 12009A HP-IB Controller
> 12040D Asynchronous Multiplexer interface board

The hard part is the A900 chassis/backplane/PS.  Jesse / Cypress
Technology has some 2139A 20-slot listed on eBay, but definitely not
at hobby budget prices. No idea how much room he has for "Make Offer".
I have rarely seen the A900 chassis come up for sale on eBay.

Another hard part is the 12222 memory frontplane. Maybe it wouldn't be
too hard to build an equivalent PCB if the proper connectors can be
acquired. They are 3-row 96-pin connectors. Maybe common DIN 41612
connectors would work, I haven't looked at that closely.

The core A900 CPU set 12201A / 12202A / 12203A / 12204A appear to be
common enough on eBay if you are willing to pay somewhere in the range
of $50 - $175 per board. $200 for a complete CPU board set might not
be too bad for a hobby budget, but you can easily go 2x or more higher
than that buying the boards individually.

The 12220 768KB and 12221 3MB boards are also common enough, typically
somewhere in the range of $50 - $175 per board. The 12221 8MB boards
seem somewhat rare. The A400/A600/A700 12103 memory boards are not
compatible with the A900.

At a minimum you need either a 12005 serial card or a 12040 serial mux
for a console interface. Both of those are fairly common, although you
might pay more for cables than the boards if you don't build cables
yourself. There are several firmware versions for the 12040 mux. If
you have a D mux you need need VCP firmware 4020 or higher on the
12203A cache controller.

As you also said you need a 12009 HPIB card for a storage interface.
Running HPDrive on a PC to emulate disk and tape drives works well if
you don't have any real HPIB disk and tape drives. I managed to pick
up a 12016 SCSI card. Those are rare and expensive.

The best deal would often be on a complete chassis/backplane/PS box
with the complete CPU card set, if you can ever find one, rather than
buying individual parts here and there. I got a complete A900 box and
boards from Sellam for somewhere around $200, but that was a few years
ago now. I should get rid of a lot of the stuff I have collected over
the years, but don't plan on getting rid of the A900 anytime soon.

If you do get a working A-series up and running, the RTE-A
installation tapes are available on Bitsavers.

From ed at groenenberg.net  Fri May 10 13:14:10 2019
From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 20:14:10 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: DEC disc pack inspection unit on eBay
In-Reply-To: <1557503984841.39375@w2hx.com>
References: <98aa5a4e-e1e7-9a2f-4e40-0e451ceecfc3@sbcglobal.net>
 <1557503984841.39375@w2hx.com>
Message-ID: <51068.10.10.10.2.1557512050.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net>


On Fri, May 10, 2019 17:59, W2HX via cctalk wrote:
> What is this used for? RL02's or something? and what does it do?
> ________________________________________
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Bob Rosenbloom
> via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Friday, May 10, 2019 1:49 AM
> To: cctalk
> Subject: DEC disc pack inspection unit on eBay
>
> There's a mis-categorized  disk pack inspection unit up on eBay. Might
> be of use to someone.
>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Early-Digital-Equiment-Corp-DEC-Portable-Briefcase-Paper-Tape-Reader-Punch/303149714641?hash=item4695218cd1:g:ks8AAOSwEVZc1PQo
>
> Bob
>
> --
> Vintage computers and electronics
> www.dvq.com
> www.tekmuseum.com
> www.decmuseum.org
>
>

These units were used to inspect the surfaces of the multi platter
diskpacks, like a RP0x or RM0x packs.

I used to have one but was different to the one listed on ebay.

The one I had can be seen at this link :

http://www.groenenberg.net/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=album14&id=PIC00045

Here you can see the armature with the strip mirrors, which would be
moved between the platters. The diskpack would rotate slowly and you
would be able to inspect each surface using the tilted mirrors.

Ed
--
Ik email, dus ik besta &#128518;



From cclist at sydex.com  Fri May 10 19:31:53 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 17:31:53 -0700
Subject: What is this?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905101453570.7563@shell.lmi.net>
References: <001c01d50768$e188cd90$a49a68b0$@emailtoilet.com>
 <479f821b-0e54-73b8-fb62-f6cfc11e8f61@sydex.com>
 <1b0bf549-fe4e-99fb-bcf7-f168011d7441@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905101453570.7563@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <6e704699-67e7-312e-572b-953131566d10@sydex.com>

On 5/10/19 2:57 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
 With no first-hand knowledge, I would assume that NSA also used such.
> 
> Half a century ago, when I worked at The National Space Science Data
> Center (NASA, Greenbelt) we dealt with a lot of data.? But that is like
> a floppy compared to NSA, especially the Utah Data Center!

I have some passing experience with the IBM 1360 photostore that was at
Lawrence Livermore, but that was strictly digital, using a photographic
medium to archive inactive files.  (WikiP has a section on the 1360 and,
in the same entry, briefly touches on WALNUT).  There were bootleg
programs in distribution to access one's online files periodically, so
that they wouldn't be "photostored" because of inactivity.   The system
was generally not well-loved.

Reading about WALNUT, it was more than a little unusual for its time.
The idea was the setup stored (photographically) almost a million images
using a non-silver process.  The images were indexed digitally and the
index was searchable.   The output appears to be a standard  aperture
card.  Although both of the references that I found mention
Kalfax/Kalvar media, WikiP says that the systems delivered to the CIA
used a different diazo process that was apparently more stable than the
Kalvar process.

--Chuck




From athornton at gmail.com  Fri May 10 20:42:30 2019
From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 18:42:30 -0700
Subject: PDP-11/40 available, Arizona
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1557507600.1802.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.3.1557507600.1802.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <34B92B29-E10B-41A9-A1A6-6F7FB21ABC6B@gmail.com>

I have been invited out to the site tomorrow morning to take an inventory of what?s there (I live near the machines).

I imagine that I may well have a lot of photos that I bring to the list and say ?what is this??

The owner has assured me the machines will not be sent to the scrapper and that there are multiple interested parties, which is good, because I really don?t have a good place to put 8 cabinets of PDP-11.  Not that having an 11/40 running Sixth Edition Unix wouldn?t be cool.

I?ll report back once I have an inventory.

Adam

From fritzm at fritzm.org  Fri May 10 21:38:52 2019
From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 19:38:52 -0700
Subject: PDP-11/40 available, Arizona
In-Reply-To: <34B92B29-E10B-41A9-A1A6-6F7FB21ABC6B@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1557507600.1802.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <34B92B29-E10B-41A9-A1A6-6F7FB21ABC6B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f2325b3a-598d-5fc9-6410-ddec722565ec@fritzm.org>


On 5/10/19 6:42 PM, Adam Thornton via cctech wrote:
> I have been invited out to the site tomorrow morning to take an inventory of what?s there (I live near the machines).
> I imagine that I may well have a lot of photos that I bring to the list and say ?what is this??

Standing by to help out!  Go get it, Adam -- (come on, you can _make_ 
room! :-))

From pbirkel at gmail.com  Sat May 11 01:59:16 2019
From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 02:59:16 -0400
Subject: HP 1000 A900 ("Magic") Questions
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwJbh6AYBgLHnA3EpScepCEpwe+EKiHELc-Ui3anMXtgVg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <0ef501d50721$861d4cc0$9257e640$@gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwJbh6AYBgLHnA3EpScepCEpwe+EKiHELc-Ui3anMXtgVg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01a401d507c7$0ceb2100$26c16300$@gmail.com>

>-----Original Message-----
>From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick via cctech
>Sent: Friday, May 10, 2019 1:34 PM
>To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts
>Subject: Re: HP 1000 A900 ("Magic") Questions
>
>On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 4:14 AM Paul Birkel via cctech
><cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> Aficionados;
>>
>> I'm interested in acquiring an HP1000 A900, in any form-factor.
>> (http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=594)

<snip>

>Another hard part is the 12222 memory frontplane. Maybe it wouldn't be
>too hard to build an equivalent PCB if the proper connectors can be
>acquired. They are 3-row 96-pin connectors. Maybe common DIN 41612
>connectors would work, I haven't looked at that closely.

I can confirm that DIN 41612 connectors should work fine, along with a 4-layer PCB.  HP doesn't seem to have gone "odd-ball" in that particular design choice.  I'd need to get someone to buzz out the connections to ensure that they are 1:1 all the way across before designing a PCB to fit.

<snip>

>At a minimum you need either a 12005 serial card or a 12040 serial mux
>for a console interface. Both of those are fairly common, although you
>might pay more for cables than the boards if you don't build cables
>yourself. There are several firmware versions for the 12040 mux. If
>you have a D mux you need need VCP firmware 4020 or higher on the
>12203A cache controller.

Cables, and those specialized HP connectors, are always a pain.  I would need to make up my own, given my budget, I expect.  I do have one or two possible spares from a 21MX I/O environment that probably could be repurposed assuming that the edge-connectors match up ... which they may not.  We'll see.  Thanks for the notes about the firmware version issue.

>As you also said you need a 12009 HPIB card for a storage interface.
>Running HPDrive on a PC to emulate disk and tape drives works well if
>you don't have any real HPIB disk and tape drives. I managed to pick
>up a 12016 SCSI card. Those are rare and expensive.

I'll bet!  Yes, I was assuming that HPDrive would be the way to proceed; it's good to get confirmation on that point.  Also the availability of a suitably configured RTE.

paul


From edcross at gmail.com  Sat May 11 04:33:33 2019
From: edcross at gmail.com (Eduardo Cruz)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 11:33:33 +0200
Subject: PDP-11/40 available, Arizona
In-Reply-To: <f2325b3a-598d-5fc9-6410-ddec722565ec@fritzm.org>
References: <mailman.3.1557507600.1802.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <34B92B29-E10B-41A9-A1A6-6F7FB21ABC6B@gmail.com>
 <f2325b3a-598d-5fc9-6410-ddec722565ec@fritzm.org>
Message-ID: <65772909-77DA-4BE7-9D9B-5E72738305CF@gmail.com>

Great! Good luck with the visit. The other day I wrote to Kristina to express interest.

> On 11 May 2019, at 04:38, Fritz Mueller via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 5/10/19 6:42 PM, Adam Thornton via cctech wrote:
>> I have been invited out to the site tomorrow morning to take an inventory of what?s there (I live near the machines).
>> I imagine that I may well have a lot of photos that I bring to the list and say ?what is this??
> 
> Standing by to help out!  Go get it, Adam -- (come on, you can _make_ room! :-))

From edcross at gmail.com  Sat May 11 04:33:33 2019
From: edcross at gmail.com (Eduardo Cruz)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 11:33:33 +0200
Subject: PDP-11/40 available, Arizona
In-Reply-To: <f2325b3a-598d-5fc9-6410-ddec722565ec@fritzm.org>
References: <mailman.3.1557507600.1802.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <34B92B29-E10B-41A9-A1A6-6F7FB21ABC6B@gmail.com>
 <f2325b3a-598d-5fc9-6410-ddec722565ec@fritzm.org>
Message-ID: <65772909-77DA-4BE7-9D9B-5E72738305CF@gmail.com>

Great! Good luck with the visit. The other day I wrote to Kristina to express interest.

> On 11 May 2019, at 04:38, Fritz Mueller via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 5/10/19 6:42 PM, Adam Thornton via cctech wrote:
>> I have been invited out to the site tomorrow morning to take an inventory of what?s there (I live near the machines).
>> I imagine that I may well have a lot of photos that I bring to the list and say ?what is this??
> 
> Standing by to help out!  Go get it, Adam -- (come on, you can _make_ room! :-))

From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net  Sat May 11 09:35:52 2019
From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 09:35:52 -0500
Subject: Possible PUTR bug?
Message-ID: <79C4C8CBB26A46799A7057A0C494C531@CharlesDellLap>

Just an update... I spent an entire long afternoon wrestling with that old 
PC, trying to find some combination of HDD jumpers and BIOS settings that 
would allow the XP hard drive to boot with another drive attached (either on 
the slave connector or the secondary channel with the CD-ROM removed). No 
dice.

So I had the bright idea to use Minitool's Partition Wizard, and shrink my 
Windows partition so there'd be room for a  newDOS partition.
But it won't even run (probably because I have only 64 MB RAM on that box). 
Grrr. It's unbelievably slow anyhow, so more SDRAM on order, which is really 
cheap these days.
I'd get a newer PC for the workbench, but need to keep the old motherboard 
because there are a couple of devices (including a PB-10 PROM programmer) 
which are ISA slots.

So, this has become a Windows/PC (ugh) project instead of just being able to 
play with my PDP-11...


From couryhouse at aol.com  Sat May 11 09:40:41 2019
From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 14:40:41 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: PDP-11/40 available, Arizona
References: <2112889400.2882712.1557585641551.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2112889400.2882712.1557585641551@mail.yahoo.com>

JUST? ?DOWN THE? ?ROAD A? FEW? HOURS? FROM? US HERE!


ED#
In a message dated 5/11/2019 2:33:48 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:
Great! Good luck with the visit. The other day I wrote to Kristina to express interest.

> On 11 May 2019, at 04:38, Fritz Mueller via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 5/10/19 6:42 PM, Adam Thornton via cctech wrote:
>> I have been invited out to the site tomorrow morning to take an inventory of what?s there (I live near the machines).
>> I imagine that I may well have a lot of photos that I bring to the list and say ?what is this??
> 
> Standing by to help out!? Go get it, Adam -- (come on, you can _make_ room! :-))

From couryhouse at aol.com  Sat May 11 09:40:41 2019
From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 14:40:41 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: PDP-11/40 available, Arizona
References: <2112889400.2882712.1557585641551.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2112889400.2882712.1557585641551@mail.yahoo.com>

JUST? ?DOWN THE? ?ROAD A? FEW? HOURS? FROM? US HERE!


ED#
In a message dated 5/11/2019 2:33:48 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:
Great! Good luck with the visit. The other day I wrote to Kristina to express interest.

> On 11 May 2019, at 04:38, Fritz Mueller via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 5/10/19 6:42 PM, Adam Thornton via cctech wrote:
>> I have been invited out to the site tomorrow morning to take an inventory of what?s there (I live near the machines).
>> I imagine that I may well have a lot of photos that I bring to the list and say ?what is this??
> 
> Standing by to help out!? Go get it, Adam -- (come on, you can _make_ room! :-))

From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net  Sat May 11 10:22:24 2019
From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 11:22:24 -0400
Subject: Possible PUTR bug?
In-Reply-To: <79C4C8CBB26A46799A7057A0C494C531@CharlesDellLap>
References: <79C4C8CBB26A46799A7057A0C494C531@CharlesDellLap>
Message-ID: <c113594a-44a5-29a5-229c-c2efb7008d85@comcast.net>

I understand your frustration, because all I really wanted to do was 
read/write RX33 and RX50 5-1/4" floppies to move data in and out of my 
microPDP11.? Once, I wanted to write an RX23 3-1/2" floppy with OpenVMS 
PAK files that could be read on an DEC Alpha.

Finding a PC that supports the 5-1/4" floppy drive is difficult, the 
BIOS or FDC chips only support 3-1/2" floppies in many late model PC's.? 
It appeared only a few of the older PC's that supported the 5-1/4" 
drives could actually change the spindle speed so you could read/write 
RX50 format.

I dedicated a DELL XPS 233H to this task, 32MB memory, Pentium II cpu.? 
Boots from 3GB hard disk, DOS and Win 3.1 (if you so need it).? I also 
have an IDE to CF card adapter standing by when the hard disk dies.? 
Love to have something with a smaller form factor, but it gets the job done.

Doug


On 5/11/2019 10:35 AM, Charles via cctalk wrote:
> Just an update... I spent an entire long afternoon wrestling with that 
> old PC, trying to find some combination of HDD jumpers and BIOS 
> settings that would allow the XP hard drive to boot with another drive 
> attached (either on the slave connector or the secondary channel with 
> the CD-ROM removed). No dice.
>
> So I had the bright idea to use Minitool's Partition Wizard, and 
> shrink my Windows partition so there'd be room for a? newDOS partition.
> But it won't even run (probably because I have only 64 MB RAM on that 
> box). Grrr. It's unbelievably slow anyhow, so more SDRAM on order, 
> which is really cheap these days.
> I'd get a newer PC for the workbench, but need to keep the old 
> motherboard because there are a couple of devices (including a PB-10 
> PROM programmer) which are ISA slots.
>
> So, this has become a Windows/PC (ugh) project instead of just being 
> able to play with my PDP-11...
>


From cclist at sydex.com  Sat May 11 11:04:34 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 09:04:34 -0700
Subject: Possible PUTR bug?
In-Reply-To: <c113594a-44a5-29a5-229c-c2efb7008d85@comcast.net>
References: <79C4C8CBB26A46799A7057A0C494C531@CharlesDellLap>
 <c113594a-44a5-29a5-229c-c2efb7008d85@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <8fa48b84-2449-f6c0-083b-5822a55f9268@sydex.com>

On 5/11/19 8:22 AM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote:

> Finding a PC that supports the 5-1/4" floppy drive is difficult, the
> BIOS or FDC chips only support 3-1/2" floppies in many late model PC's.?
> It appeared only a few of the older PC's that supported the 5-1/4"
> drives could actually change the spindle speed so you could read/write
> RX50 format.

I have to admit that I don't follow this one.  Although I'll admit the
possibility that some odd chipset doesn't support the 300Kbps data rate
needed to use normal "360K" floppies in a 5.25" HD drive spinning at 360
RPM, I've yet to run across one.  Finding a modern PC with legacy floppy
support is a different issue.   Either using a 5.25" DD-only drive (such
as a Teac FD55F) or jumpering a 5.25" HD drive to use 300 RPM are both
options.  From the standpoint of the hardware, there's no difference
between a "720K" 3.5" drive and a 5.25" one so configured.

In the case of RX50 on the PC, it doesn't matter.  The format is 10
sectors of 512 bytes, which isn't supported by the PC BIOS in any
regular sense (9 sectors is the norm).  So most packages that deal with
FILES-11 RX50 floppies on a PC use direct hardware (chip) access and
bypass the BIOS completely.  PUTR is one such package.

The real issue is that the need for *writing* RX50 FILES-11 format
diskettes is virtually non-existent.  With the exception of PUTR, the
packages that I've seen (dating from 1984) are all for *reading* them.
Heck, I've written a couple myself, including one for CP/M-80.

--Chuck


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sat May 11 13:35:04 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 11:35:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Possible PUTR bug?
In-Reply-To: <c113594a-44a5-29a5-229c-c2efb7008d85@comcast.net>
References: <79C4C8CBB26A46799A7057A0C494C531@CharlesDellLap>
 <c113594a-44a5-29a5-229c-c2efb7008d85@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905111014210.21782@shell.lmi.net>

On Sat, 11 May 2019, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> Finding a PC that supports the 5-1/4" floppy drive is difficult, the BIOS or 
> FDC chips only support 3-1/2" floppies in many late model PC's.? It appeared 
> only a few of the older PC's that supported the 5-1/4" drives could actually 
> change the spindle speed so you could read/write RX50 format.

{Written in a hurry; making a list of all of the errors is left as an 
exercise for the reader]

You can fool the computer in software. 
Most of those problems are with DOS/Windoze.
There is little or no problem with the FDC (other than as detailed in #3 
below). 
The main change that you are referring to was that some companies 
cut corners and stopped supporting a 300K bits per second data transfer 
rate that had been needed to use "360K" floppies in SOME early "1.2M" 
drives.   Don't use THOSE "1.2M" drives on THOSE computers for reading 
5.25" 96TPI "720K"/"800K" floppies.

1) the computer can't tell the difference between a "720K" 3.5" drive and 
a "720K" 5.25" drive, such as Tandon TM100-4, Teac 55F, Mitsubishi 4853, 
or Shugart/Panasonic/Matsushita 465.  My favorite was the 465, since it 
didn't have the "NEED for index" mentioned in #3 below.
The methods of being able to figure out which kind of drive it REALLY is 
are hardly never implemented in PCs.  (cf. undocumented algorithms to 
identify which processor is present)
If you are concerned about the menus in the CMOS SETUP or the choices in 
the DOS FORMAT program, LIE TO IT!  (Tell it that the tax increase is 
TEMPORARY, that the check is in the mail, that the current software 
release is completely bug-free)

When 3.5" drives and disks came out (also 3" and 3.25"), they were usable 
in ALL of the 5150s, 5160s, and 5170s.  With 5170s, you just had to LIE 
to the CMOS SETUP and tell the BIOS that your "720K" 3.5" drive was a 
"360K" 5.25" drive. 
FDC and BIOS couldn't tell the difference.  But, now, you need to lie in 
the other directions.
DOS support of "720K" was finally included in certain OEM versions of 
MS-DOS 2.11; and then got full support in MS/PC-DOS 3.20.  For use of the 
DOS formats of those drives, you were instructed to use DRIVER.SYS, or 
the partially undocumented DRIVPARM (present, but not documented in 
PC-DOS, because it did not work with some "real" IBM BIOS'es and would 
give an "UNRECOGNIZED" error, although the same boot disk would work with 
after-market BIOS!)


2) There did exist briefly, some "1.2M" 5.25" drives that could only run 
at 360 RPM, and required a 300K bits per second data transfer rate for 
handling "360K" and "720K" floppies in the "1.2M" drive.  Support for that 
data transfer rate might not be present in cut-corner "modern" PCs.
On those machines, you need to either use a "720K" 5.25" drive, or, if you 
need to use a "1.2M" drive, it needs to be one that can run at 300 RPM. 
Check the jumper settings.


3) However, SOME "400K" and "800K" floppies do still have a problem. 
WD style disk controllers, such as the 179x series and some other custom 
disk controllers are capable of writing closer to the index pulse than the 
NEC 765 style FDCs can handle.  The NEC style needs a little time after 
the index pulse before it can read.  Some compare that to "flash 
blindness", where a human can not see anything immediately after a photo 
flash.

There are numerous kludges to get around that.  On most drives (NOT 
including most TEAC 55), you can successfully read those diskettes by 
physically blocking the index hole of the floppy, using a SOLIDLY applied 
write-protect tab. (Do I really need to tell you to make sure that it 
won't fall off in the drive?)

OR, by fashioning a floppy drive data cable with a SWITCH in series with 
the INDEX signal.

Both of those approaches have a very minor problem that many unrelated 
disk errors will be mis-reported as being "DRIVE NOT READY" (error code 
80h), since the FDC doesn't see an index pulse.

Some people have had some success by slightly reducing the motor speed 
(nominally 300 RPM) of the drive!

If you still have access to the machine whose disks you want to read, you 
can FORMAT a disk with an adequate index gap (using software on your PC), 
take THAT disk back to the alien machine, copy the files onto it, and then 
bring it back to the PC to read.  That also works for a few other minor 
incompatabilities, such as formats that use an incorrect value in any of 
the sector header fields.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com
XenoSoft                        http://www.xenosoft.com

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sat May 11 13:40:26 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 11:40:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Possible PUTR bug?
In-Reply-To: <8fa48b84-2449-f6c0-083b-5822a55f9268@sydex.com>
References: <79C4C8CBB26A46799A7057A0C494C531@CharlesDellLap>
 <c113594a-44a5-29a5-229c-c2efb7008d85@comcast.net>
 <8fa48b84-2449-f6c0-083b-5822a55f9268@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905111135580.21782@shell.lmi.net>

On Sat, 11 May 2019, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> In the case of RX50 on the PC, it doesn't matter.  The format is 10
> sectors of 512 bytes, which isn't supported by the PC BIOS in any
> regular sense (9 sectors is the norm).  So most packages that deal with
> FILES-11 RX50 floppies on a PC use direct hardware (chip) access and
> bypass the BIOS completely.  PUTR is one such package.

If the only problem is that there are 10 sectors per track, that can still 
be done WITH THE BIOS, using Int1Eh in conjunction with Int13h, except 
for the potential problems with 765 index "flash blindness".  For 
formatting tracks, you can use Int1Eh to alter the sector gaps.


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sat May 11 13:54:37 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 11:54:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: PDP-11/40 available, Arizona
In-Reply-To: <2112889400.2882712.1557585641551@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <2112889400.2882712.1557585641551.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2112889400.2882712.1557585641551@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905111152150.21782@shell.lmi.net>

On Sat, 11 May 2019, ED SHATTNER wrote:
> JUST? ?DOWN THE? ?ROAD A? FEW? HOURS? FROM? US HERE!
> ED#

You should go check it out.  Even if there isn't anything that you want, 
you might be able to help, or store things for those who can't transport 
right away.


From t.gardner at computer.org  Sat May 11 14:20:40 2019
From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 12:20:40 -0700
Subject: What is this?
In-Reply-To: <479f821b-0e54-73b8-fb62-f6cfc11e8f61@sydex.com>
References: <001c01d50768$e188cd90$a49a68b0$@emailtoilet.com>
 <479f821b-0e54-73b8-fb62-f6cfc11e8f61@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <006801d5082e$9f57b1e0$de0715a0$@computer.org>

There is a section in Bashe et al, Early IBM Computers that suggests Walnut only went to the CIA.

 

The follow on project was  Cypress beginning in 1962:

?The main Cypress system, designed to store all information in digital form, was sometimes called the Trillion-bit File. This system was very exploratory and expensive; it necessitated mastery over several technologically advanced engineering fields, among them electron- beam recording. (The project continued for several more years and five systems were delivered?three to AEC laboratories and two to NSA.)101

It became the 1360 Photo Digital Store

?101. Kean, 1977: pp. 79-80. Under the name IBM 1360 Photo-Digital Storage System, the first system was delivered on 30 September 1967 to the Lawrence Radiation Laboratory, Livermore, California; see R. M. Furman, 15 May 1968: ?IBM 1360 Photo-Digital Storage System,? IBM Technical Report. For a technical description of the 1360, see J. D. Kuehler and H. R. Kerby, 1966: ?A Photo-Digital Mass Storage System,? Proceedings of the Fall Joint Computer Conference, pp. 735-742. A simpler system, which stored images on microfilm, was announced as the IBM 1350 Photo Image Retrieval System in May 1966 and soon withdrawn for lack of sufficient acceptance.?

Tom

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Guzis [mailto:cclist at sydex.com] 
Sent: Friday, May 10, 2019 1:13 PM
To: Donald via cctalk
Subject: Re: What is this?

 

On 5/10/19 12:45 PM, Donald via cctalk wrote:

>  <http://www.myimagecollection.com/webpics/unknownmachine.jpg> http://www.myimagecollection.com/webpics/unknownmachine.jpg

> 

>  

> 

> The model number looks like 9603.  Can't tell for sure.  The box in 

> back has the 14xx flavor.

 

IBM 9603 WALNUT - Microfilm image storage and retrieval system.   Read

about it on PDF page 13 here:

 

 <http://nopr.niscair.res.in/bitstream/123456789/28351/1/ALIS%2014%282%29%2062-75.pdf> http://nopr.niscair.res.in/bitstream/123456789/28351/1/ALIS%2014%282%29%2062-75.pdf

 

Circa 1960.

 

There's more on the web; just search on "IBM WALNUT"

 

--Chuck

 


From cclist at sydex.com  Sat May 11 15:02:40 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 13:02:40 -0700
Subject: Possible PUTR bug?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905111135580.21782@shell.lmi.net>
References: <79C4C8CBB26A46799A7057A0C494C531@CharlesDellLap>
 <c113594a-44a5-29a5-229c-c2efb7008d85@comcast.net>
 <8fa48b84-2449-f6c0-083b-5822a55f9268@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905111135580.21782@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <ecc221a2-7592-b8bd-ae3f-bff2febb2101@sydex.com>

On 5/11/19 11:40 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> On Sat, 11 May 2019, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>> In the case of RX50 on the PC, it doesn't matter.? The format is 10
>> sectors of 512 bytes, which isn't supported by the PC BIOS in any
>> regular sense (9 sectors is the norm).? So most packages that deal with
>> FILES-11 RX50 floppies on a PC use direct hardware (chip) access and
>> bypass the BIOS completely.? PUTR is one such package.
> 
> If the only problem is that there are 10 sectors per track, that can
> still be done WITH THE BIOS, using Int1Eh in conjunction with Int13h,
> except for the potential problems with 765 index "flash blindness".? For
> formatting tracks, you can use Int1Eh to alter the sector gaps.

But that isn't the only issue, even assuming that you have a
well-behaved BIOS. Many are not.

The other gotcha is that if you want to run a 5.25" HD drive declared as
a "1.2M" in the BIOS, the assumption made by the BIOS is that you want
to double-step.  That's a harder one to defeat, although it can be done
by tinkering with the flags in 0490h and 0491h, but due to BIOS
implementation differences, this is not perfectly reliable.

Of course, you can, as mentioned, modify a 1.2M drive to run at 300 RPM
and tell the BIOS that it's a 720K unit, but you won't be able to handle
48 tpi disks without a device driver to do the double-stepping for you.
Telling potential customers how to modify a drive that you've never seen
is even more entertaining, particularly in the pre-web world. So you're
back in the same boat.

All in all, using the BIOS to do RX50 work was a support nightmare for
me--there was always *someone* out there with a no-name PC using a
strange BIOS that wouldn't work.

I found that doing direct access was far more reliable in the long run.
(see SIMTEL20 RAINDOS for my implementation of a DOS device driver for
Rainbow 100 floppies, circa 1990).

--Chuck



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sat May 11 16:00:41 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 14:00:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Possible PUTR bug?
In-Reply-To: <ecc221a2-7592-b8bd-ae3f-bff2febb2101@sydex.com>
References: <79C4C8CBB26A46799A7057A0C494C531@CharlesDellLap>
 <c113594a-44a5-29a5-229c-c2efb7008d85@comcast.net>
 <8fa48b84-2449-f6c0-083b-5822a55f9268@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905111135580.21782@shell.lmi.net>
 <ecc221a2-7592-b8bd-ae3f-bff2febb2101@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905111315530.23271@shell.lmi.net>

>>> In the case of RX50 on the PC, it doesn't matter.? The format is 10
>>> sectors of 512 bytes, which isn't supported by the PC BIOS in any
>>> regular sense (9 sectors is the norm).? So most packages that deal with
>>> FILES-11 RX50 floppies on a PC use direct hardware (chip) access and
>>> bypass the BIOS completely.? PUTR is one such package.
>> If the only problem is that there are 10 sectors per track, that can
>> still be done WITH THE BIOS, using Int1Eh in conjunction with Int13h,
>> except for the potential problems with 765 index "flash blindness".? For
>> formatting tracks, you can use Int1Eh to alter the sector gaps.
>
On Sat, 11 May 2019, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> But that isn't the only issue, even assuming that you have a
> well-behaved BIOS. Many are not.
>
> The other gotcha is that if you want to run a 5.25" HD drive declared as
> a "1.2M" in the BIOS, the assumption made by the BIOS is that you want
> to double-step.  That's a harder one to defeat, although it can be done
> by tinkering with the flags in 0490h and 0491h, but due to BIOS
> implementation differences, this is not perfectly reliable.
>
> Of course, you can, as mentioned, modify a 1.2M drive to run at 300 RPM
> and tell the BIOS that it's a 720K unit, but you won't be able to handle
> 48 tpi disks without a device driver to do the double-stepping for you.
> Telling potential customers how to modify a drive that you've never seen
> is even more entertaining, particularly in the pre-web world. So you're
> back in the same boat.
>
> All in all, using the BIOS to do RX50 work was a support nightmare for
> me--there was always *someone* out there with a no-name PC using a
> strange BIOS that wouldn't work.
>
> I found that doing direct access was far more reliable in the long run.
> (see SIMTEL20 RAINDOS for my implementation of a DOS device driver for
> Rainbow 100 floppies, circa 1990).

Oh, SO TRUE!

It is FUNNY (not "ha-ha") that although the stated purpose of having the 
BIOS separate from the file system and command processor was to cover over 
incompatabilities ("DOS est omnis divisa in partes tres"), the hardware 
was sometimes more compatible than the "compatability layer" made up of 
the BIOS!

I always advised everybody not to use a 96tpi drive for wwriting to 48tpi 
disks.  Too many people refused to understand that you had to format a 
virgin (or bulk-erased) disk in the 96tpi as the only way to avoid the 
failure to completely RE-write the full width of the track on disks that 
would later go through attempts to read on a 48tpi.

I always tested everything thoroughly on real IBM hardware.  Not that I 
could comfortably afford that premium, but it let me make the 
sanctimonious statement "It works on REAL IBM.  If it doesn't work on YOUR 
after-market machine, that means that it is not TRULY compatible.  That's 
not necessarily BAD, if they wanted to do things in a BETTER WAY, but we 
can't guarantee that all "compatible" machines are "compatible ENOUGH". 
Please provide us as much detail as you can of any problems, and we will 
make a good faith effort to make changes to be able to include your 
systems."


PC-WORLD once used Xeno-Copy as "the acid test of compatability"!  They 
failed to mention that they used a much earlier version than what was 
being sold, and that the current version at the time that they used the 
early version for testing would work on every one of the machines that 
they said could not run it.
I considered [and started] writing a PC TEST program called "XenoProbe : 
The Acid Test" that would seek out and identify differences between 
machines, starting with exploiting side effects to identify the 
processor, etc.

The reason for the early incompatability, as many of you have figured out, 
was that what little assembly/machine language that I know, I learned 
working on XenoCopy. I do not expect to live long enough to ever catch up 
with the knowledge and abilities of many on this list.  (Chuck and ARD are 
not the only ones)

In fact, the FIRST version (as used by PC-World) was written in BASIC, and 
compiled with BASCOM, using Int1Eh and a call to Int13h.  As suggested by 
Brett Salter, I passed the return value back through the Floating Point 
Accumulator!  THAT was what made it incapable of running on anything other 
than REAL IBM 5150.  The title screen SAID that it would not work on 
anything other than IBM.
I also had a trivial piece of self-modifying code, 
and that is how I found out about the change in the pre-fetch buffer size 
from 8088 to 80286.

I rewrote version 2.00 in DeSmet C, with cleaned up calls from high level 
to machine language functions, saving and restoring screens, etc.

Although I enjoyed DeSmet C, I used Microsoft C for all subsequent high 
level language progams that I wrote.  For example, I wrote the screen 
capture TSR of "XenoFont" in MASM, and the printing program in Microsoft 
C; I wrote "Sales tax Genie" (TSR) in MASM, but then later renamed the 
.COM file to .EXE to use it as the "stub" program of a Microsoft C 
Windoze program, to have a single file that could load the TSR in DOS, AND 
be able to run as a Windoze program.  I never got around to redoing the 
TSR formats to be able to ALSO load them as device drivers (lets you get 
them into lower memory!); I intended to eventually create a single 
executable file format that could be loaded by CONFIG.SYS, CMD.COM, AND 
Windows.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From tacoman656 at gmail.com  Sat May 11 05:53:44 2019
From: tacoman656 at gmail.com (Todd Goodman)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 06:53:44 -0400
Subject: Extra copy of "LSI-11, PDP-11/03 User's Manual"
In-Reply-To: <20190510182353.6D46118C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190510182353.6D46118C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <756cbe04-ef06-0460-cde6-5e9b5d7711b7@gmail.com>

Hi Noel,

If you don't get any takers, I'm interested and will happily reimburse 
you your entire ebay cost (including shipping to you) as well as 
shipping to me.

Thank you!

Todd

On 5/10/2019 2:23 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
> As a result of an inventory error on my part, I wound up with an extra copy
> of "LSI-11, PDP-11/03 User's Manual" (EK-LSI11-TM-003).
>
> I'd like to pass it along to someone, provided I'm reimbursed _most_ of
> my eBait expenditure on it (it was not, alas, cheap). Anyone interested?
>
> 	Noel

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sat May 11 17:12:58 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 15:12:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Earlier microfilm retrieval systems (Was: What is this?
In-Reply-To: <6e704699-67e7-312e-572b-953131566d10@sydex.com>
References: <001c01d50768$e188cd90$a49a68b0$@emailtoilet.com>
 <479f821b-0e54-73b8-fb62-f6cfc11e8f61@sydex.com>
 <1b0bf549-fe4e-99fb-bcf7-f168011d7441@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905101453570.7563@shell.lmi.net>
 <6e704699-67e7-312e-572b-953131566d10@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905111442350.24842@shell.lmi.net>

On Fri, 10 May 2019, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> Reading about WALNUT, it was more than a little unusual for its time.
> The idea was the setup stored (photographically) almost a million images
> using a non-silver process.  The images were indexed digitally and the
> index was searchable.   The output appears to be a standard  aperture
> card.  Although both of the references that I found mention
> Kalfax/Kalvar media, WikiP says that the systems delivered to the CIA
> used a different diazo process that was apparently more stable than the
> Kalvar process.

There have been quite a few systems for computerized retrieval of 
photographic images.
Besides "aperture cards" there were a number of earlier systems that 
encoded an ID on the microfilm.

Lest we be overly concerned with that using too much of the microfilm 
physical space, keep in mind that soundtrack was often included on 
16mm and 35mm movies.  Maurer, and others?, had up to EIGHT parallel 
analog audio tracks in the margin of movie film.  Eight bit parallel!?!

90 years ago, Emmanuel Goldberg built a system:
http://people.ischool.berkeley.edu/~buckland/statistical.html
http://people.ischool.berkeley.edu/~buckland/goldberg.html
http://people.ischool.berkeley.edu/~buckland/goldbush.html
One of several reasons why Goldberg is largely unknown is that he was 
working in Germany (Zeiss) when the Nazis came into power, and Zeiss 
had to systematically wipe the records of existence of Jewish engineers.
His optical reading of the metadata was done by "complement" or 
"extinction".


Vannevar Bush's speculative article "As We may Think" (Atlantic Monthly 
1945, although first written in 1939) suggested possibilities for the 
"Memex".
It used "coindcident" templates, instead of "extinction" for the matching. 
It also talked about the microfilm remaining in motion, with a Xenon 
flash tube to "stop" the motion.  The level of magnification and the 
speed that he talked about moving the film were not consistent with the 
speed of the flash tubes that were actually AVAILABLE at the time, nor in 
the 1950s.

Vannevar Bush did not reference the work of predecessors, such as Goldberg 
and a few others, although there is some evidence that he had at least 
heard about Goldberg's work.  Atlantic Montlhly was popular press, not a 
"peer-reviewed" academic journal, so policies of citations were lax.

Bush seems to have not been a believer in hierarchical information 
storage, and used examples of flipping from documents to other documents 
in "trails".
Ted Nelson credits that with inspiration for "hypertext".
Berners-Lee credits Ted Nelson's hypertext with inspiration for WWW.

"As We May Think" has caused Bush to often be considered the "father of 
Information Science", which frankly, I don't feel is much more accurate 
than some of the modern crediting of Steve Jobs and Bill Gates with 
"inventing" the computer.



From wkt at tuhs.org  Sat May 11 18:14:58 2019
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sun, 12 May 2019 09:14:58 +1000
Subject: How were 32-bit minis built in the 70s/80?
Message-ID: <20190511231458.GA10756@minnie.tuhs.org>

I'm building my own 8-bit CPU from TTL chips, and this caused me to think:
how were 32-bit minis built in the late 70s and early 80s? In particular,
how was the ALU built? I know about the 74181 4-bit ALU, and I know (from
reading A Soul of a New Machine) that PALs were also used.

Did companies get custom chips fabricated, or was it all off-the-shelf chips
with a few PALs sprinkled in?

Thanks, Warren

From allisonportable at gmail.com  Sat May 11 19:28:57 2019
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 20:28:57 -0400
Subject: How were 32-bit minis built in the 70s/80?
In-Reply-To: <20190511231458.GA10756@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <20190511231458.GA10756@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <b0187038-7cd7-4460-167c-559cd5faa9f4@gmail.com>

On 05/11/2019 07:14 PM, Warren Toomey via cctalk wrote:
> I'm building my own 8-bit CPU from TTL chips, and this caused me to think:
> how were 32-bit minis built in the late 70s and early 80s? In particular,
> how was the ALU built? I know about the 74181 4-bit ALU, and I know (from
> reading A Soul of a New Machine) that PALs were also used.
> 
> Did companies get custom chips fabricated, or was it all off-the-shelf chips
> with a few PALs sprinkled in?
> 
> Thanks, Warren
> 

Lets see the VAX 11/780 hit the street in 78 and DG followed with theirs
soon after and of course the IBM 360 was 32bit so the number can be
fairly large.  Soul of a new machine was more romantic but it was of
early VAX era and the Eclipse was the result.

Reading the following woould be better as it compared and contrasts DEC
hardware and instill an idea of ISA design and then its hardware
implementation.  Its a good read and free!

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/_Books/BellComputerEngineering.pdf

Building now is more based on what you have or can get not what was used
then as most were pushing for speed vs price and the available parts
were never fast enough and cost too much.

Not all were 74181 based, Thats an early 1972 part and but 1975 it was
already getting old though useful as it evolved to 74S and 74F series.
The 82s100 and 105 series were out there and even by 1980 the AMD 2900C
series was getting long in the tooth. Mask programable gate arrays were
in the 1000 and up gate level by 1980 and growing by doubles every 6
months to a year. Don't got get programmables like PAL/GAL logic.
There was a lot of designs and even inside DEC you might see several
approaches depending on what machine and the specific date.  For example
the 780, 750 and 730 used very different technology.  I will not go into
those that also went the ECL {10K, 100K, 1M families] route.

Your question has to be based on a specific date window and narrow at
that as keep in mind by 1978 16bit CPUs on silicon were a fact
(Ti9900, SBP9900, F11, T11, Nova, 8086).




From drb at msu.edu  Sat May 11 19:32:36 2019
From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 20:32:36 -0400
Subject: How were 32-bit minis built in the 70s/80?
In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sun, 12 May 2019 09:14:58 +1000.)
 <20190511231458.GA10756@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <20190511231458.GA10756@minnie.tuhs.org> 
Message-ID: <20190512003236.DF2491C8F74@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>

 > I'm building my own 8-bit CPU from TTL chips, and this caused me to
 > think: how were 32-bit minis built in the late 70s and early 80s? In
 > particular, how was the ALU built? I know about the 74181 4-bit ALU,
 > and I know (from reading A Soul of a New Machine) that PALs were also
 > used.

I'd be curious to know how many designs used the 74181 instead of
scratch logic in the early 70s.  I doubt many custom chips were done
until mid-late 80s.

Prime used 74181 chips for some of their CPUs.  I have a 150 CPU board
(1980, though it was likely a relatively minor rehash of an older
board), for example.

Prime and Data General both used AMD2901 (1975) family stuff in some of
their designs.

Prime definitely had a lot of the logic into VLSI chips on their CPU
boards in the late 80s time frame.  By the end (early 90s), a CPU board
was one or two big CMOS chips and a lot of empty space.

De

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Sat May 11 19:47:46 2019
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 18:47:46 -0600
Subject: How were 32-bit minis built in the 70s/80?
In-Reply-To: <20190511231458.GA10756@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <20190511231458.GA10756@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <2f715dfd-fa78-1c90-5460-642af0635283@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 5/11/2019 5:14 PM, Warren Toomey via cctalk wrote:
> I'm building my own 8-bit CPU from TTL chips, and this caused me to think:
> how were 32-bit minis built in the late 70s and early 80s? In particular,
> how was the ALU built? I know about the 74181 4-bit ALU, and I know (from
> reading A Soul of a New Machine) that PALs were also used.
> 
> Did companies get custom chips fabricated, or was it all off-the-shelf chips
> with a few PALs sprinkled in?
> 
> Thanks, Warren
> 

8 bit computers are EVIL. REPENT DEAR BROTHER.
I WILL PRAY FOR YOU.
24 bit computers are HOLY AND DIVINE.
Building a  12/24 BIT CPU with 8 bit I/O.
(back on topic)

Early 70's computers other than IBM used TTL, and fast
core memory with mostly a 16 bit word width. Other than
the PDP 11, most computers where adapted from the transistor
era with tweaks added for banks of memory.When the late 70's
came around commercial customers had a large main frame computer
or small control computer from a few years earlier with FAST
TTL (S)logic, PDP 11's, IBM 360's or clones,or TTL standard/H like
PDP 8 or NOVA computer.

Bit slice logic like the 2901 alu, (1975) would make for
nice low cost 16/32 bit cpu with byte load/store.
The market for 32 bit computers was decided however
to sell FAST LARGE systems (floating point/64K+ memory)
like the VAX (S TTL) or upgrade other designs like the NOVA computer with
Custom or semi-custom (PAL logic) logic.
INTEL being slow with the forgotten APX 432 design
came out with 8086 leaving us with the defective CPU's
of today.

Ben's view point.

I am doing  my computer with a FPGA development system
for design logic and testing and later using 2901's
and LS TTL with 3 proms used for the alu/control cards.
  I have A nice 8/16/32 cpu design with 512KB of memory
(2901 alu )but I can't get it to route correctly. The 12/24 bit
cpu just fits with the FREE develpment software.
For a few K $ I can get the better version with being able
route by hand my logic to meet timing specs.
Once hardware SD card/serial port and software are working
I then will port the design to TTL.
I may need to write my own tiny langage to boot strap
my system.

Ben.
PS:
16 bit computer format

[op 3..1][ac 3..1][mode 3..1][ix 3..1][aux][k 3..1]
The tricky part is K is the upper 3 address bits
to extend 16 bit offset to 19 bits or a auto indexing
mode. This would be valid memory for the late 70's
early 1980's but not for today.








From steven at malikoff.com  Sat May 11 19:50:18 2019
From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com)
Date: Sun, 12 May 2019 10:50:18 +1000
Subject: How were 32-bit minis built in the 70s/80?
In-Reply-To: <20190511231458.GA10756@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <20190511231458.GA10756@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <8cb2c8a083baeff96452703fcfc191e7.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>

Warren said
> I'm building my own 8-bit CPU from TTL chips, and this caused me to think:
> how were 32-bit minis built in the late 70s and early 80s? In particular,
> how was the ALU built? I know about the 74181 4-bit ALU, and I know (from
> reading A Soul of a New Machine) that PALs were also used.
>
> Did companies get custom chips fabricated, or was it all off-the-shelf chips
> with a few PALs sprinkled in?
>
> Thanks, Warren

I could be remembering incorrectly but I think the Gould PN6080 mini we had exclusively for third year
comp sci at Macquarie Uni in the mid/late 80s was 32-bit made up of AMD2900 family logic (2901 ALU's).

I can't verify that now as it's hard to find anything much at all about the Gould mini's on the web (they
advertised them as superminis back then) but our machine running UTX/32 was pretty easy to bring to a
complete crawl with students all trying to get their Prolog assignments running before deadlines.

The lecturer didn't like us using 'cut' so the stack used to grow enormous and things would go downhill
from there. That, and the two disks - one good one that had the system and staff accounts filesystem and
the other chronically dodgy one that held the student accounts and temp - is about all I remember of it.

Steve


From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Sat May 11 20:30:18 2019
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 19:30:18 -0600
Subject: How were 32-bit minis built in the 70s/80?
In-Reply-To: <b0187038-7cd7-4460-167c-559cd5faa9f4@gmail.com>
References: <20190511231458.GA10756@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <b0187038-7cd7-4460-167c-559cd5faa9f4@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <756c3d2c-ad51-725e-94ee-797fdd8759bf@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 5/11/2019 6:28 PM, allison via cctalk wrote:

> Not all were 74181 based, Thats an early 1972 part and but 1975 it was
> already getting old though useful as it evolved to 74S and 74F series.
> The 82s100 and 105 series were out there and even by 1980 the AMD 2900C
> series was getting long in the tooth. Mask programable gate arrays were
> in the 1000 and up gate level by 1980 and growing by doubles every 6
> months to a year. Don't got get programmables like PAL/GAL logic.
> There was a lot of designs and even inside DEC you might see several
> approaches depending on what machine and the specific date.  For example
> the 780, 750 and 730 used very different technology.  I will not go into
> those that also went the ECL {10K, 100K, 1M families] route.

74181 is FAST, but I disagree with the way most computer architecture is
designed. You have a fast micro code cycle, that is out of sync with
main memory, that tries to emulate a Harvard? Memory model.
It looks fast only on paper or demo programs sadly.
The few schematics I have seen (PDP 8/11) have 74H logic hidden
inside so you can't say they are pure TTL logic.

  A cpu instruction has 4 parts in general
  a) getting the instruction and literal data from memory
  b) calculating the the effective address
  c) fetching the data from memory  c) ouputing data
  d) using the data d) saving to memory.

It is very hard to speed up this cycle because this has
sync to extenal memory. Memory is the bottleneck
is the true speed limit in any sytem. Add in virtual
memory and in multitasking and graphics
no wonder the PDP 8 at with TTL gives better response
time.
Ben.
PS: this message was delayed for about a minute as
background program froze the sytem.


From cclist at sydex.com  Sat May 11 20:34:30 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 18:34:30 -0700
Subject: Possible PUTR bug?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905111315530.23271@shell.lmi.net>
References: <79C4C8CBB26A46799A7057A0C494C531@CharlesDellLap>
 <c113594a-44a5-29a5-229c-c2efb7008d85@comcast.net>
 <8fa48b84-2449-f6c0-083b-5822a55f9268@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905111135580.21782@shell.lmi.net>
 <ecc221a2-7592-b8bd-ae3f-bff2febb2101@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905111315530.23271@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <9bcceeaa-8485-d563-39c2-f71fd09b4b33@sydex.com>

On 5/11/19 2:00 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> Although I enjoyed DeSmet C, I used Microsoft C for all subsequent high
> level language progams that I wrote.? For example, I wrote the screen
> capture TSR of "XenoFont" in MASM, and the printing program in Microsoft
> C; I wrote "Sales tax Genie" (TSR) in MASM, but then later renamed the
> .COM file to .EXE to use it as the "stub" program of a Microsoft C
> Windoze program, to have a single file that could load the TSR in DOS,
> AND be able to run as a Windoze program.? I never got around to redoing
> the TSR formats to be able to ALSO load them as device drivers (lets you
> get them into lower memory!); I intended to eventually create a single
> executable file format that could be loaded by CONFIG.SYS, CMD.COM, AND
> Windows.

My first FILES-11 RX01 read-conversion tool was written in PL/M and ran
on an MDS800.

My second FILES-11 RX01 reading/conversion utility was written largely
in FORTRAN.  System was an 8080 S100 box with a WD1771 controller.

C on an 8080/85 system seems like a horrible waste of hardware, owing to
the need for procedure-local variables.  Stack-based addressing isn't
pretty.  Basically to load a 16-bit stack-based integer into BC you have
to do something like this:

   LXI  H,offset
   DAD  SP
   MOV  C,M
   INX  H
   MOV  B,M

Add to that, that really good "C" compilers for the x80/x86 took some
time to mature.  My first C on an 8086 was Lattice; compiled on a
floppy-based system.  But then Microsoft MASM 1.0 was terrible in its
own right as well--the list of errata was quite long.  I remember
mumbling to myself "that's not what I wrote!".

--Chuck




From cclist at sydex.com  Sat May 11 20:40:29 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 18:40:29 -0700
Subject: How were 32-bit minis built in the 70s/80?
In-Reply-To: <20190511231458.GA10756@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <20190511231458.GA10756@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <2dd7b50b-84fa-199b-63b2-e31ce50072cc@sydex.com>

On 5/11/19 4:14 PM, Warren Toomey via cctalk wrote:
> I'm building my own 8-bit CPU from TTL chips, and this caused me to think:
> how were 32-bit minis built in the late 70s and early 80s? In particular,
> how was the ALU built? I know about the 74181 4-bit ALU, and I know (from
> reading A Soul of a New Machine) that PALs were also used.

What logic family?  There were some minis built with ECL for example.

--Chuck

From chd at chdickman.com  Sat May 11 21:17:15 2019
From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 22:17:15 -0400
Subject: How were 32-bit minis built in the 70s/80?
In-Reply-To: <8cb2c8a083baeff96452703fcfc191e7.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
References: <20190511231458.GA10756@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <8cb2c8a083baeff96452703fcfc191e7.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
Message-ID: <CAAq7DHpOE5T_EDjrwn9bP4ynQsQ12iE+Q7wA+DiPtYc9XoqtxQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 8:50 PM Steve Malikoff via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I could be remembering incorrectly but I think the Gould PN6080 mini we
> had exclusively for third year
> comp sci at Macquarie Uni in the mid/late 80s was 32-bit made up of
> AMD2900 family logic (2901 ALU's).
>

Purdue EE had I think 2 Gould PowerNode 9080s. I don't know anything about
the internals, but Purdue EE was doing development or testing for them. It
might have been a port of 4.3 BSD. As an undergraduate you could get an
account on en.ecn.purdue.edu for the asking and it was significantly faster
than the overloaded Dual VAXen. It also crashed from time to time.

-chuck

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sat May 11 21:31:51 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 19:31:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Possible PUTR bug?
In-Reply-To: <9bcceeaa-8485-d563-39c2-f71fd09b4b33@sydex.com>
References: <79C4C8CBB26A46799A7057A0C494C531@CharlesDellLap>
 <c113594a-44a5-29a5-229c-c2efb7008d85@comcast.net>
 <8fa48b84-2449-f6c0-083b-5822a55f9268@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905111135580.21782@shell.lmi.net>
 <ecc221a2-7592-b8bd-ae3f-bff2febb2101@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905111315530.23271@shell.lmi.net>
 <9bcceeaa-8485-d563-39c2-f71fd09b4b33@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905111923190.26126@shell.lmi.net>

On Sat, 11 May 2019, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> Add to that, that really good "C" compilers for the x80/x86 took some
> time to mature.  My first C on an 8086 was Lattice; compiled on a
> floppy-based system.

DeSmet was in my price range,  . . .

> But then Microsoft MASM 1.0 was terrible in its
> own right as well--the list of errata was quite long.

"To make a file of that list, you are going to need more disk space."

> I remember mumbling to myself "that's not what I wrote!".

Version 5.0? was the first to come with materials that could even be 
called "documentation".
But, I had been playing confusedly with MASM 1.0 since the day that it 
came out.



From elson at pico-systems.com  Sat May 11 22:26:15 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 22:26:15 -0500
Subject: How were 32-bit minis built in the 70s/80?
In-Reply-To: <20190511231458.GA10756@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <20190511231458.GA10756@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <5CD79257.2020803@pico-systems.com>

On 05/11/2019 06:14 PM, Warren Toomey via cctalk wrote:
> I'm building my own 8-bit CPU from TTL chips, and this caused me to think:
> how were 32-bit minis built in the late 70s and early 80s? In particular,
> how was the ALU built? I know about the 74181 4-bit ALU, and I know (from
> reading A Soul of a New Machine) that PALs were also used.
>
> Did companies get custom chips fabricated, or was it all off-the-shelf chips
> with a few PALs sprinkled in?
>
>
There were also the AMD2901, 2903, 29203 family of bit-slice 
components, with the 2910 sequencer.  I built a 32-bit basic 
microengine in about 1982, but the software development 
effort eventually led me to stop work on it.  I was planning 
to implement the IBM 360 instruction set, with extensions, 
as it was very easy to implement with microcode.

See http://pico-systems.com/stories/1982.html  for some 
description and photos.

Apollo built some machines which I think were programmed at 
the microinstruction level, without microcode, using 2903's, 
I think.

The VAX 11/780 used 74S181 ALU chips, I think.  There were 
not all that many 32-bit minis.
I can think of Interdata 7/32 and 8/32 models that were 
32-bit.  SEL also made a 32-bit mini.
The VAX 11/780 was completely done with off-the-shelf ICs.  
Later VAXes went to semi-custom ICs, and the MicroVAX line 
used full-custom ICs.  I suspect many other makers were so 
small, they could only use off the shelf parts.

Jon

From allisonportable at gmail.com  Sat May 11 22:28:27 2019
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 23:28:27 -0400
Subject: How were 32-bit minis built in the 70s/80?
In-Reply-To: <756c3d2c-ad51-725e-94ee-797fdd8759bf@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <20190511231458.GA10756@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <b0187038-7cd7-4460-167c-559cd5faa9f4@gmail.com>
 <756c3d2c-ad51-725e-94ee-797fdd8759bf@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <d1eb9701-9e06-1fde-8f48-0cdf7398152f@gmail.com>

On 05/11/2019 09:30 PM, ben via cctalk wrote:
> On 5/11/2019 6:28 PM, allison via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> Not all were 74181 based, Thats an early 1972 part and but 1975 it was
>> already getting old though useful as it evolved to 74S and 74F series.
>> The 82s100 and 105 series were out there and even by 1980 the AMD 2900C
>> series was getting long in the tooth. Mask programable gate arrays were
>> in the 1000 and up gate level by 1980 and growing by doubles every 6
>> months to a year. Don't got get programmables like PAL/GAL logic.
>> There was a lot of designs and even inside DEC you might see several
>> approaches depending on what machine and the specific date.? For example
>> the 780, 750 and 730 used very different technology.? I will not go into
>> those that also went the ECL {10K, 100K, 1M families] route.
> 
> 74181 is FAST, but I disagree with the way most computer architecture is

TTl in general is slow a ALU based on 181 is hitting the wall at 5mhz
with 12 or 32 but carry lookahead.


> designed. You have a fast micro code cycle, that is out of sync with
> main memory, that tries to emulate a Harvard? Memory model.
> It looks fast only on paper or demo programs sadly.
> The few schematics I have seen (PDP 8/11) have 74H logic hidden
> inside so you can't say they are pure TTL logic.

Yes, they are mostly TTL and the typical 8efm use MSI ttl such as
7481, a bunch of them.

I'm likely one of the few that took a 8E and ran semiconductor ram then
pushed the clock up to the breaking point and you get to about 4x and
you start getting timing errors and critical path delays that mess with
the logic.  However at 4X you doing a lot and decently fast but you
needs a faster generation of logic.

> 
> ?A cpu instruction has 4 parts in general
> ?a) getting the instruction and literal data from memory
> ?b) calculating the the effective address
> ?c) fetching the data from memory? c) ouputing data
> ?d) using the data d) saving to memory.
> 
Many of those things can be done in parallel.

Whoever RMW cycles on memory even with very fast memory will slow the
system as you have cycles that cannot be interrupted mostly in the
slow memory.

> It is very hard to speed up this cycle because this has
> sync to extenal memory. Memory is the bottleneck
> is the true speed limit in any sytem. Add in virtual
> memory and in multitasking and graphics
> no wonder the PDP 8 at with TTL gives better response
> time.

Memory is often the bottleneck then IO especially block IO.

The response time of PDP8 was mostly due to a simple OS and nothing to
get in the way.

The name for that is system overhead and PDP-8 had little and what it
did have was written in assembler for speed and compact code as it was
also space constrained.

Allison, have the shirt.

> Ben.
> PS: this message was delayed for about a minute as
> background program froze the sytem.
> 


From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com  Sat May 11 22:52:00 2019
From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams)
Date: Sun, 12 May 2019 13:52:00 +1000
Subject: How were 32-bit minis built in the 70s/80?
In-Reply-To: <d1eb9701-9e06-1fde-8f48-0cdf7398152f@gmail.com>
References: <20190511231458.GA10756@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <b0187038-7cd7-4460-167c-559cd5faa9f4@gmail.com>
 <756c3d2c-ad51-725e-94ee-797fdd8759bf@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <d1eb9701-9e06-1fde-8f48-0cdf7398152f@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACCFpdxxWuQojnXkWgpuvW1kV4CiLQXVpwQhfbQa9AVaL2XK0g@mail.gmail.com>

Marketing at the time even had a catchy name for the 32-bit minicomputer:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superminicomputer

From cclist at sydex.com  Sat May 11 23:12:16 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 21:12:16 -0700
Subject: How were 32-bit minis built in the 70s/80?
In-Reply-To: <CACCFpdxxWuQojnXkWgpuvW1kV4CiLQXVpwQhfbQa9AVaL2XK0g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190511231458.GA10756@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <b0187038-7cd7-4460-167c-559cd5faa9f4@gmail.com>
 <756c3d2c-ad51-725e-94ee-797fdd8759bf@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <d1eb9701-9e06-1fde-8f48-0cdf7398152f@gmail.com>
 <CACCFpdxxWuQojnXkWgpuvW1kV4CiLQXVpwQhfbQa9AVaL2XK0g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <83236b38-c11c-af24-550c-fda30bb27a51@sydex.com>

On 5/11/19 8:52 PM, Nigel Williams via cctalk wrote:
> Marketing at the time even had a catchy name for the 32-bit minicomputer:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superminicomputer
> 


Personally, I preferred "the Naked Mini"

https://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/minicomputers/11/359

--Chuck




From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Sat May 11 23:50:52 2019
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 22:50:52 -0600
Subject: How were 32-bit minis built in the 70s/80?
In-Reply-To: <d1eb9701-9e06-1fde-8f48-0cdf7398152f@gmail.com>
References: <20190511231458.GA10756@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <b0187038-7cd7-4460-167c-559cd5faa9f4@gmail.com>
 <756c3d2c-ad51-725e-94ee-797fdd8759bf@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <d1eb9701-9e06-1fde-8f48-0cdf7398152f@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e09d67cd-9437-3c4f-5e10-94923dab8062@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 5/11/2019 9:28 PM, allison via cctalk wrote:
> On 05/11/2019 09:30 PM, ben via cctalk wrote:
>> On 5/11/2019 6:28 PM, allison via cctalk wrote:
>>
>>> Not all were 74181 based, Thats an early 1972 part and but 1975 it was
>>> already getting old though useful as it evolved to 74S and 74F series.
>>> The 82s100 and 105 series were out there and even by 1980 the AMD 2900C
>>> series was getting long in the tooth. Mask programable gate arrays were
>>> in the 1000 and up gate level by 1980 and growing by doubles every 6
>>> months to a year. Don't got get programmables like PAL/GAL logic.
>>> There was a lot of designs and even inside DEC you might see several
>>> approaches depending on what machine and the specific date.? For example
>>> the 780, 750 and 730 used very different technology.? I will not go into
>>> those that also went the ECL {10K, 100K, 1M families] route.
>>
>> 74181 is FAST, but I disagree with the way most computer architecture is
> 
> TTl in general is slow a ALU based on 181 is hitting the wall at 5mhz
> with 12 or 32 but carry lookahead.
> 
No BUT's

I have my cpu designed for 1976, with NO pipeline and a 6900 memory 
cycle @ .75 us. I suspect about half the speed and half the price
had it been built in that era compared to a pdp 11.

>> designed. You have a fast micro code cycle, that is out of sync with
>> main memory, that tries to emulate a Harvard? Memory model.
>> It looks fast only on paper or demo programs sadly.
>> The few schematics I have seen (PDP 8/11) have 74H logic hidden
>> inside so you can't say they are pure TTL logic.
> 
> Yes, they are mostly TTL and the typical 8efm use MSI ttl such as
> 7481, a bunch of them.
> 
> I'm likely one of the few that took a 8E and ran semiconductor ram then
> pushed the clock up to the breaking point and you get to about 4x and
> you start getting timing errors and critical path delays that mess with
> the logic.  However at 4X you doing a lot and decently fast but you
> needs a faster generation of logic.
> 
>>
>>  ?A cpu instruction has 4 parts in general
>>  ?a) getting the instruction and literal data from memory
>>  ?b) calculating the the effective address
>>  ?c) fetching the data from memory? c) ouputing data
>>  ?d) using the data d) saving to memory.
>>

> Many of those things can be done in parallel.
Or pipe lining, I don't mind tricks being used to
speed up a system,but knowing how slow a instruction
is, or what side effects can be very important.

> The name for that is system overhead and PDP-8 had little and what it
> did have was written in assembler for speed and compact code as it was
> also space constrained.

I don't know, I suspect 3-4 users would bog down a 8 time sharing.
mind you time sharing meant back then meant 4 people editing files
not like to day, where 3 or 4 windows are running with 30 back ground tasks.

It was a marvel how the machines worked with so little core.

> Allison, have the shirt.
I have the paper tape. :)
Ben.



From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Sat May 11 23:52:47 2019
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 22:52:47 -0600
Subject: How were 32-bit minis built in the 70s/80?
In-Reply-To: <83236b38-c11c-af24-550c-fda30bb27a51@sydex.com>
References: <20190511231458.GA10756@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <b0187038-7cd7-4460-167c-559cd5faa9f4@gmail.com>
 <756c3d2c-ad51-725e-94ee-797fdd8759bf@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <d1eb9701-9e06-1fde-8f48-0cdf7398152f@gmail.com>
 <CACCFpdxxWuQojnXkWgpuvW1kV4CiLQXVpwQhfbQa9AVaL2XK0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <83236b38-c11c-af24-550c-fda30bb27a51@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <e7598cb2-0b39-35a1-de16-1027f2eecb5c@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 5/11/2019 10:12 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

> Personally, I preferred "the Naked Mini"
Used for porn world wide.:)
> --Chuck
> 



From cclist at sydex.com  Sun May 12 00:21:59 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 22:21:59 -0700
Subject: How were 32-bit minis built in the 70s/80?
In-Reply-To: <e7598cb2-0b39-35a1-de16-1027f2eecb5c@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <20190511231458.GA10756@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <b0187038-7cd7-4460-167c-559cd5faa9f4@gmail.com>
 <756c3d2c-ad51-725e-94ee-797fdd8759bf@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <d1eb9701-9e06-1fde-8f48-0cdf7398152f@gmail.com>
 <CACCFpdxxWuQojnXkWgpuvW1kV4CiLQXVpwQhfbQa9AVaL2XK0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <83236b38-c11c-af24-550c-fda30bb27a51@sydex.com>
 <e7598cb2-0b39-35a1-de16-1027f2eecb5c@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <28b8c335-efea-f4ab-b0d1-dd73efad9707@sydex.com>

On 5/11/19 9:52 PM, ben via cctalk wrote:
> On 5/11/2019 10:12 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> Personally, I preferred "the Naked Mini"
> Used for porn world wide.:)
>> --Chuck
>

Maybe--it was an 8 bit mini, so not very powerful.  Mostly used in what
we'd call "embedded" applications.  Pre-microprocessor days.

I can remember back in the early 70s picking up some surplus PCBs with
plain 7400 (not LS) logic, including a couple of 74181 ALUs and a 74199
shift register, both in 0.600" 24 pin DIPS--and lots of SSI TTL logic. I
was mostly interested in scavenging ICs from the thing, so I never
figured out what the PCBs belonged to.

On the other hand, I have a couple of Eurobus wire-wrap boards outfitted
with lots of 10K series ECL.  It appears to be a 12-bit CPU, complete
with memory and registers.   The clock on it is 40MHz.  I don't know
what it could have been.  Mostly, I consider the boards to be a source
of gold-plated wire-wrap pins.

--Chuck


From allisonportable at gmail.com  Sat May 11 18:50:05 2019
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 19:50:05 -0400
Subject: Possible PUTR bug?
In-Reply-To: <c113594a-44a5-29a5-229c-c2efb7008d85@comcast.net>
References: <79C4C8CBB26A46799A7057A0C494C531@CharlesDellLap>
 <c113594a-44a5-29a5-229c-c2efb7008d85@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <2499212b-026b-4f84-aa6e-54dadce529b9@gmail.com>

My Solution is easier, least for me.

I have a few Z80 CP/M machines with 765A in it and if it can't read it
its likely due to being hard sectored or M2FM.  I has 3.6, 5.25 and 8"
and  the 5.25 are Teac FD55gfh which are dual speed and can do all
modes. With my own software and utilities it does whatever even RX180,
RX50, RX33, and RX22/23 formats from the DEC pool.

The PC machine for when that stuff is needed is a DELL pizza box that
has 32mb of ram and 486dx/66 (ISA/ISA16) and can run dos though NT4 as
needed as I have a buttload of ST3660As as media for them (have two as a
spare).  That machine uses a combo IO controller for the FDC seems to do
what I ask of it.  Also an old Compag with similar features and PII and
32MB and also does Ethernet but the disk controller is a newer ISA16
using a combo chip and most of the combo chips after late 90s-ish seem
to have an even shorter VFO sync window (flash blindess).

I neither expect nor desire modern machine with anything past NT4 to
behave well with old disks.  Though Mini-ITX boards all seem to support
everything and anything and have all the legacy ports.  They all run
linux and if needed a partition (60mb of disk is trivial) for MSdos
6.22 or freedos.

Oh, unless its under threat the OS is linux, freedos, or if required XP
Though the latter is usually under VMware or Virtualbox on Linux..  I
just got tired of all the winders hassles and requirements for insane
hardware needs every few years.  Most stuff runs fine under dosemu or wine.

As to RT11, I have run mostly V5.0x and as needed if a device required
it a later driver borrowed from V5.04 or later.  It just seems to work
with out much pain.

As to running a RX50 on a PC...  That drive was a neat thing but its
mostly the interface is incompatible with most standard floppies and
a FD55A/B or any of the 48tpi 40 track drives will read and write the
media.  I make a point of only using it on PDP-11 as transfer media,
its low density so its marginal for much.  Keep in mine that drive
select is used to select the A or B drive of a RX50 there is no side.
They had a terrible track record for reliability.  I can put Two RX33
[teac fd55gfh] in the same space and store more.  Some to think of it
most Late PC 5.25 and 3.5 inch drives are incompatable with old standard
[TM100 and that era] as many do not have a 1 of 4 drive select jumper
and use the funky PC only twist cable.

I neatly sidestep all of the cruft and hacks needed for super wizbang
winXP and later machines.  I figure if I'm going to play with old
hardware I need to retain the old hardware to maintain them.  So I
retained the best of the best old PCs as they bulk of them are crap.
I buy new hardware that is not neutered.  Mini/Micro-ITX board with
atom or celeron CPUs (really all that's needed) are cheap and easily
built up into linux boxes or if you must any of the older 32 bit
winders incantations.


Allison



]On 05/11/2019 11:22 AM, Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote:
> I understand your frustration, because all I really wanted to do was
> read/write RX33 and RX50 5-1/4" floppies to move data in and out of my
> microPDP11.? Once, I wanted to write an RX23 3-1/2" floppy with OpenVMS
> PAK files that could be read on an DEC Alpha.
> 
> Finding a PC that supports the 5-1/4" floppy drive is difficult, the
> BIOS or FDC chips only support 3-1/2" floppies in many late model PC's.?
> It appeared only a few of the older PC's that supported the 5-1/4"
> drives could actually change the spindle speed so you could read/write
> RX50 format.
> 
> I dedicated a DELL XPS 233H to this task, 32MB memory, Pentium II cpu.?
> Boots from 3GB hard disk, DOS and Win 3.1 (if you so need it).? I also
> have an IDE to CF card adapter standing by when the hard disk dies.?
> Love to have something with a smaller form factor, but it gets the job
> done.
> 
> Doug
> 
> 
> On 5/11/2019 10:35 AM, Charles via cctalk wrote:
>> Just an update... I spent an entire long afternoon wrestling with that
>> old PC, trying to find some combination of HDD jumpers and BIOS
>> settings that would allow the XP hard drive to boot with another drive
>> attached (either on the slave connector or the secondary channel with
>> the CD-ROM removed). No dice.
>>
>> So I had the bright idea to use Minitool's Partition Wizard, and
>> shrink my Windows partition so there'd be room for a? newDOS partition.
>> But it won't even run (probably because I have only 64 MB RAM on that
>> box). Grrr. It's unbelievably slow anyhow, so more SDRAM on order,
>> which is really cheap these days.
>> I'd get a newer PC for the workbench, but need to keep the old
>> motherboard because there are a couple of devices (including a PB-10
>> PROM programmer) which are ISA slots.
>>
>> So, this has become a Windows/PC (ugh) project instead of just being
>> able to play with my PDP-11...
>>
> 


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sat May 11 19:53:55 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 17:53:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Possible PUTR bug?
In-Reply-To: <2499212b-026b-4f84-aa6e-54dadce529b9@gmail.com>
References: <79C4C8CBB26A46799A7057A0C494C531@CharlesDellLap>
 <c113594a-44a5-29a5-229c-c2efb7008d85@comcast.net>
 <2499212b-026b-4f84-aa6e-54dadce529b9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905111747362.26126@shell.lmi.net>

I wish that I were to have met you 40 years ago!
Learning that stuff by error, error, error, trial, and error was 
inefficient.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

On Sat, 11 May 2019, allison via cctech wrote:
> My Solution is easier, least for me.
>
> I have a few Z80 CP/M machines with 765A in it and if it can't read it
> its likely due to being hard sectored or M2FM.  I has 3.6, 5.25 and 8"
> and  the 5.25 are Teac FD55gfh which are dual speed and can do all
> modes. With my own software and utilities it does whatever even RX180,
> RX50, RX33, and RX22/23 formats from the DEC pool.
>
> The PC machine for when that stuff is needed is a DELL pizza box that
> has 32mb of ram and 486dx/66 (ISA/ISA16) and can run dos though NT4 as
> needed as I have a buttload of ST3660As as media for them (have two as a
> spare).  That machine uses a combo IO controller for the FDC seems to do
> what I ask of it.  Also an old Compag with similar features and PII and
> 32MB and also does Ethernet but the disk controller is a newer ISA16
> using a combo chip and most of the combo chips after late 90s-ish seem
> to have an even shorter VFO sync window (flash blindess).
>
> I neither expect nor desire modern machine with anything past NT4 to
> behave well with old disks.  Though Mini-ITX boards all seem to support
> everything and anything and have all the legacy ports.  They all run
> linux and if needed a partition (60mb of disk is trivial) for MSdos
> 6.22 or freedos.
>
> Oh, unless its under threat the OS is linux, freedos, or if required XP
> Though the latter is usually under VMware or Virtualbox on Linux..  I
> just got tired of all the winders hassles and requirements for insane
> hardware needs every few years.  Most stuff runs fine under dosemu or wine.
>
> As to RT11, I have run mostly V5.0x and as needed if a device required
> it a later driver borrowed from V5.04 or later.  It just seems to work
> with out much pain.
>
> As to running a RX50 on a PC...  That drive was a neat thing but its
> mostly the interface is incompatible with most standard floppies and
> a FD55A/B or any of the 48tpi 40 track drives will read and write the
> media.  I make a point of only using it on PDP-11 as transfer media,
> its low density so its marginal for much.  Keep in mine that drive
> select is used to select the A or B drive of a RX50 there is no side.
> They had a terrible track record for reliability.  I can put Two RX33
> [teac fd55gfh] in the same space and store more.  Some to think of it
> most Late PC 5.25 and 3.5 inch drives are incompatable with old standard
> [TM100 and that era] as many do not have a 1 of 4 drive select jumper
> and use the funky PC only twist cable.
>
> I neatly sidestep all of the cruft and hacks needed for super wizbang
> winXP and later machines.  I figure if I'm going to play with old
> hardware I need to retain the old hardware to maintain them.  So I
> retained the best of the best old PCs as they bulk of them are crap.
> I buy new hardware that is not neutered.  Mini/Micro-ITX board with
> atom or celeron CPUs (really all that's needed) are cheap and easily
> built up into linux boxes or if you must any of the older 32 bit
> winders incantations.
>
>
> Allison

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Sun May 12 02:06:01 2019
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Sun, 12 May 2019 08:06:01 +0100
Subject: How were 32-bit minis built in the 70s/80?
In-Reply-To: <2f715dfd-fa78-1c90-5460-642af0635283@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <20190511231458.GA10756@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <2f715dfd-fa78-1c90-5460-642af0635283@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <2d0101d50891$28f89ec0$7ae9dc40$@gmail.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of ben via cctalk
> Sent: 12 May 2019 01:48
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: How were 32-bit minis built in the 70s/80?
> 
> On 5/11/2019 5:14 PM, Warren Toomey via cctalk wrote:
> > I'm building my own 8-bit CPU from TTL chips, and this caused me to think:
> > how were 32-bit minis built in the late 70s and early 80s? In
> > particular, how was the ALU built? I know about the 74181 4-bit ALU,
> > and I know (from reading A Soul of a New Machine) that PALs were also
> used.
> >
> > Did companies get custom chips fabricated, or was it all off-the-shelf
> > chips with a few PALs sprinkled in?
> >
> > Thanks, Warren
> >
> 
> 8 bit computers are EVIL. REPENT DEAR BROTHER.
> I WILL PRAY FOR YOU.
> 24 bit computers are HOLY AND DIVINE.
> Building a  12/24 BIT CPU with 8 bit I/O.
> (back on topic)
> 

They certainly thought that at Jodrell Bank, an outpost of the University of Manchester 

http://www.jodrellbank.net/

in 1964 they started using Ferranti Argus 100 computers to control the radio telescopes.
 
http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/32443/Ferranti-Argus-100/

these were programmed in FORTH and the 24 bit word was ideal for storing astronomical co-ordinates as sixed packed decimal digits.
So much so that when Ferranti stopped making the Argus 100 they created bit-slice emulations of the machine using AMD2900 chips 


> Early 70's computers other than IBM used TTL, and fast core memory with
> mostly a 16 bit word width. Other than the PDP 11, most computers where
> adapted from the transistor era with tweaks added for banks of
> memory.When the late 70's came around commercial customers had a large
> main frame computer or small control computer from a few years earlier with
> FAST TTL (S)logic, PDP 11's, IBM 360's or clones,or TTL standard/H like PDP 8
> or NOVA computer.
> 
> Bit slice logic like the 2901 alu, (1975) would make for nice low cost 16/32 bit
> cpu with byte load/store.
> The market for 32 bit computers was decided however to sell FAST LARGE
> systems (floating point/64K+ memory) like the VAX (S TTL) or upgrade other
> designs like the NOVA computer with Custom or semi-custom (PAL logic)
> logic.
> INTEL being slow with the forgotten APX 432 design came out with 8086
> leaving us with the defective CPU's of today.
> 

The AMD2900 could be used to build 24 bit CPUs as well....

> Ben's view point.
> 
> I am doing  my computer with a FPGA development system for design logic
> and testing and later using 2901's and LS TTL with 3 proms used for the
> alu/control cards.
>   I have A nice 8/16/32 cpu design with 512KB of memory
> (2901 alu )but I can't get it to route correctly. The 12/24 bit cpu just fits with
> the FREE develpment software.
> For a few K $ I can get the better version with being able route by hand my
> logic to meet timing specs.
> Once hardware SD card/serial port and software are working I then will port
> the design to TTL.
> I may need to write my own tiny langage to boot strap my system.
> 
> Ben.

Best of luck
Dave


> PS:
> 16 bit computer format
> 
> [op 3..1][ac 3..1][mode 3..1][ix 3..1][aux][k 3..1] The tricky part is K is the
> upper 3 address bits to extend 16 bit offset to 19 bits or a auto indexing
> mode. This would be valid memory for the late 70's early 1980's but not for
> today.
> 



From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Sun May 12 02:16:11 2019
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Sun, 12 May 2019 08:16:11 +0100
Subject: How were 32-bit minis built in the 70s/80?
In-Reply-To: <8cb2c8a083baeff96452703fcfc191e7.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
References: <20190511231458.GA10756@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <8cb2c8a083baeff96452703fcfc191e7.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
Message-ID: <2d0d01d50892$9484db80$bd8e9280$@gmail.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Steve Malikoff
> via cctalk
> Sent: 12 May 2019 01:50
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: How were 32-bit minis built in the 70s/80?
> 
> Warren said
> > I'm building my own 8-bit CPU from TTL chips, and this caused me to think:
> > how were 32-bit minis built in the late 70s and early 80s? In
> > particular, how was the ALU built? I know about the 74181 4-bit ALU,
> > and I know (from reading A Soul of a New Machine) that PALs were also
> used.
> >
> > Did companies get custom chips fabricated, or was it all off-the-shelf
> > chips with a few PALs sprinkled in?
> >
> > Thanks, Warren
> 

Also in the UK GEC used AMD2900 IC's for some of the GEC4000 series. Some details here:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GEC_4000_series

we used them in NERC (Natural Environment Research Council, www.nerc.ac.uk) as both X.25 packet switches and as general purpose computers in which role they were universally hated as the Fortran compiler was ANSI compliant in the draconian sense of the word and the scientists were used to DIGITAL Fortran which had many extensions.

Some history of the JANET network here:-

https://www.jisc.ac.uk/sites/default/files/janet-news-24-pull-out-april-2014.pdf

Dave


From tony.aiuto at gmail.com  Sun May 12 10:34:45 2019
From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto)
Date: Sun, 12 May 2019 11:34:45 -0400
Subject: How were 32-bit minis built in the 70s/80?
In-Reply-To: <CAAq7DHpOE5T_EDjrwn9bP4ynQsQ12iE+Q7wA+DiPtYc9XoqtxQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190511231458.GA10756@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <8cb2c8a083baeff96452703fcfc191e7.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
 <CAAq7DHpOE5T_EDjrwn9bP4ynQsQ12iE+Q7wA+DiPtYc9XoqtxQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKGyVsWM=xaxTvo0cDbEVk_tdAu1iKOe=BWhhJR9wK-1ZiOP3Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 10:17 PM Charles Dickman via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 8:50 PM Steve Malikoff via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > I could be remembering incorrectly but I think the Gould PN6080 mini we
> > had exclusively for third year
> > comp sci at Macquarie Uni in the mid/late 80s was 32-bit made up of
> > AMD2900 family logic (2901 ALU's).
> >
>

The SEL (later Gould, later Encore) line was designated in two ways
27/nn, 57/nn, 87/nn for their machines which ran their real time OS, MPX
30nn, 60nn, 90nn for their machines which ran their Unix variant, UTX.
IIRC, the nn was 20, 50, or 80. Larger numbers designating increasing
capacity.

The 3000, 6000, 9000 series were virtually identical to the real time
versions.
They just upped the first digit and took out the "/".

All were true 32 bit. ISTR you could update a 20 to a 50 with a board swap,
since the backplane bus was the same. The 80s were dual cabinet machines,
more boards for the CPU and more space for memory.

The 87/9000 series were ECL based. I can't remember what technology
was in the 2x and 5x series.


>
> Purdue EE had I think 2 Gould PowerNode 9080s. I don't know anything about
> the internals, but Purdue EE was doing development or testing for them. It
> might have been a port of 4.3 BSD. As an undergraduate you could get an
> account on en.ecn.purdue.edu for the asking and it was significantly
> faster
> than the overloaded Dual VAXen. It also crashed from time to time.
>

Perdue also had Gorge Goble. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_H._Goble,
who was a character.


>
> -chuck
>

From elson at pico-systems.com  Sun May 12 11:11:52 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Sun, 12 May 2019 11:11:52 -0500
Subject: How were 32-bit minis built in the 70s/80?
In-Reply-To: <CAKGyVsWM=xaxTvo0cDbEVk_tdAu1iKOe=BWhhJR9wK-1ZiOP3Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190511231458.GA10756@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <8cb2c8a083baeff96452703fcfc191e7.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
 <CAAq7DHpOE5T_EDjrwn9bP4ynQsQ12iE+Q7wA+DiPtYc9XoqtxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKGyVsWM=xaxTvo0cDbEVk_tdAu1iKOe=BWhhJR9wK-1ZiOP3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5CD845C8.3050703@pico-systems.com>

On 05/12/2019 10:34 AM, Tony Aiuto via cctalk wrote:
>
> Perdue also had Gorge Goble. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_H._Goble,
> who was a character.
>
INDEED!  I sold him a scrap refrigeration compressor which 
he used to prove that his proprietary mix of refrigerants 
would return the oil to the compressor over a variety of 
conditions.

He developed several replacements for the banned R-12, and 
got patents on them.  But, I don't think he ever made any 
money with that, the HUGE chemical giants saw to that.

Jon

From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net  Sun May 12 17:41:24 2019
From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles)
Date: Sun, 12 May 2019 17:41:24 -0500
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
Message-ID: <4F49BB9C660F44B8B67371D3BAB651AA@CharlesDellLap>

I have tried for two days to get wireless networking running on my old PC 
under Win 98SE, so I can use PUTR without a separate partition or boot. XP 
is on an 8.4 GB drive. 98SE is on an older 540 MB drive.

There are two network cards (a Netgear WPN311 with Atheros chipset, and an 
Encore ENWLI-G2 with Realtek 8185 chip) and neither will work with Win98SE.
I have tried the manufacturer's drivers, Atheros drivers, Realtek drivers... 
none of it works. The Realtek driver installs but gives a fault in RUNDLL32.

Netgear's website claims that the WPN311 can run under 98SE and later.  Some 
sources for that driver package say it starts with XP. Although I would tend 
to believe the manufacturer...
The same Netgear card in the same motherboard was working correctly with the 
XP drive.

I even did a fresh install of 98SE. Then installed the WPN311 software, then 
the card. Windows says the card is installed and working properly.
But the Netgear utility won't run (hangs, Task Manager showing wlancfg5 not 
responding). That's usually because it can't see the card.

Searching the net including various forums from years ago hasn't helped.
So I'm about to give up. Wasted enough hours on this. Back to XP with a DOS 
partition for running PUTR.
Unless someone has a better idea :)

thanks
Charles






From sales at elecplus.com  Sun May 12 17:45:22 2019
From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton)
Date: Sun, 12 May 2019 17:45:22 -0500
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <4F49BB9C660F44B8B67371D3BAB651AA@CharlesDellLap>
References: <4F49BB9C660F44B8B67371D3BAB651AA@CharlesDellLap>
Message-ID: <2165dea5-6a01-5675-074d-dc70c55fdfd8@elecplus.com>


On 5/12/19 5:41 PM, Charles via cctalk wrote:
> I have tried for two days to get wireless networking running on my old 
> PC under Win 98SE, so I can use PUTR without a separate partition or 
> boot. XP is on an 8.4 GB drive. 98SE is on an older 540 MB drive.
>
> There are two network cards (a Netgear WPN311 with Atheros chipset, 
> and an Encore ENWLI-G2 with Realtek 8185 chip) and neither will work 
> with Win98SE.
> I have tried the manufacturer's drivers, Atheros drivers, Realtek 
> drivers... none of it works. The Realtek driver installs but gives a 
> fault in RUNDLL32.
>
> Netgear's website claims that the WPN311 can run under 98SE and 
> later.? Some sources for that driver package say it starts with XP. 
> Although I would tend to believe the manufacturer...
> The same Netgear card in the same motherboard was working correctly 
> with the XP drive.
>
> I even did a fresh install of 98SE. Then installed the WPN311 
> software, then the card. Windows says the card is installed and 
> working properly.
> But the Netgear utility won't run (hangs, Task Manager showing 
> wlancfg5 not responding). That's usually because it can't see the card.
>
> Searching the net including various forums from years ago hasn't helped.
> So I'm about to give up. Wasted enough hours on this. Back to XP with 
> a DOS partition for running PUTR.
> Unless someone has a better idea :)
>
> thanks
> Charles
>
>
> I will look and see if I still have any Win98 wireless cards. They 
> were not common.


Cindy

>
>

From derschjo at gmail.com  Sun May 12 18:05:50 2019
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sun, 12 May 2019 16:05:50 -0700
Subject: TMSCP docs?
Message-ID: <CADBZjLb5gFxRpv_aukpvzsy=A=CEqb4t6pQb4fiR8q4EpgjU0A@mail.gmail.com>

I've been working on an MSCP controller implemented on top of Joerg Hoppe's
Unibone and that's been going fairly well, modulo a few oddities here and
there (if you have a Unibone and want to beta-test it, it's up at
https://github.com/livingcomputermuseum/UniBone).

It'd be nice to extend it to do TMSCP as well.  Is there an equivalent to
the "MSCP Basic Disk Functions Manual" (AA-L619A-TK) for TMSCP?  I can
probably glean most of the information I need from various *nix device
driver sources out there, but it'd be nice to have the definitive reference
on hand, and so far it's been eluding me.  But maybe I'm just not looking
hard enough...

Thanks!
Josh

From cclist at sydex.com  Sun May 12 18:26:36 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 12 May 2019 16:26:36 -0700
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <4F49BB9C660F44B8B67371D3BAB651AA@CharlesDellLap>
References: <4F49BB9C660F44B8B67371D3BAB651AA@CharlesDellLap>
Message-ID: <9d7c0b57-f918-46e2-55e6-1466d07dbd06@sydex.com>

On 5/12/19 3:41 PM, Charles via cctalk wrote:
> I have tried for two days to get wireless networking running on my old
> PC under Win 98SE, so I can use PUTR without a separate partition or
> boot. XP is on an 8.4 GB drive. 98SE is on an older 540 MB drive.

The older Linksys WMP54G and GS will work Win98SE, as well as the older
slower WMP11 Wireless-B adapter.

Any reason that you're not using a wired adapter?

--Chuck

From cclist at sydex.com  Sun May 12 19:29:38 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 12 May 2019 17:29:38 -0700
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <4F49BB9C660F44B8B67371D3BAB651AA@CharlesDellLap>
References: <4F49BB9C660F44B8B67371D3BAB651AA@CharlesDellLap>
Message-ID: <eed947dc-6739-4a73-109c-19ccc3ff94b6@sydex.com>

Something else you may want to consider if your 98SE box has a
traditional NIC is using a cheap wifi-equipped micro as a network
bridge.  I've done that using an Orange Pi Zero and it works very well.

Wfi to the OPZ and RJ-45 to the 98SE system.  No need for fancy network
negotiation on the Win98 box.

--Chuck

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Sun May 12 21:33:40 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Sun, 12 May 2019 20:33:40 -0600
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <eed947dc-6739-4a73-109c-19ccc3ff94b6@sydex.com>
References: <4F49BB9C660F44B8B67371D3BAB651AA@CharlesDellLap>
 <eed947dc-6739-4a73-109c-19ccc3ff94b6@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <8a3b04c5-32c9-b86b-7051-429be6d680e8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 5/12/19 6:29 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> Something else you may want to consider if your 98SE box has a 
> traditional NIC is using a cheap wifi-equipped micro as a network 
> bridge.  I've done that using an Orange Pi Zero and it works very well.

IMHO the OPZ would be functioning as what I think are commonly called 
"gaming adapters".  It functions as the wireless client to connect the 
wired Ethernet client.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From pat at vax11.net  Sun May 12 22:34:47 2019
From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan)
Date: Sun, 12 May 2019 23:34:47 -0400
Subject: How were 32-bit minis built in the 70s/80?
In-Reply-To: <CAKGyVsWM=xaxTvo0cDbEVk_tdAu1iKOe=BWhhJR9wK-1ZiOP3Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190511231458.GA10756@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <8cb2c8a083baeff96452703fcfc191e7.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
 <CAAq7DHpOE5T_EDjrwn9bP4ynQsQ12iE+Q7wA+DiPtYc9XoqtxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKGyVsWM=xaxTvo0cDbEVk_tdAu1iKOe=BWhhJR9wK-1ZiOP3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAADZ-4PT6T2z0unSxV9MLE8nQAyDNUeKQbojTrhT1c4kXbczrg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 12, 2019, 11:35 Tony Aiuto via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

>
> Perdue also had Gorge Goble. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_H._Goble
> ,
> who was a character.
>


ghg still works at Purdue in the same department (Engineering Computer
Network).

Perdue on the other hand sells you chicken at the grocery store.

Pat

>

From cclist at sydex.com  Sun May 12 23:17:20 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 12 May 2019 21:17:20 -0700
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <8a3b04c5-32c9-b86b-7051-429be6d680e8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <4F49BB9C660F44B8B67371D3BAB651AA@CharlesDellLap>
 <eed947dc-6739-4a73-109c-19ccc3ff94b6@sydex.com>
 <8a3b04c5-32c9-b86b-7051-429be6d680e8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <00e08bd8-4de5-254d-c765-f4938f04701e@sydex.com>

On 5/12/19 7:33 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> On 5/12/19 6:29 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>> Something else you may want to consider if your 98SE box has a
>> traditional NIC is using a cheap wifi-equipped micro as a network
>> bridge.? I've done that using an Orange Pi Zero and it works very well.
> 
> IMHO the OPZ would be functioning as what I think are commonly called
> "gaming adapters".? It functions as the wireless client to connect the
> wired Ethernet client.

Don't know a thing about gaming and never wanted to--wrong generation, I
guess.

In Linux terminology, it's a "bridge connection".   Very simple to set up:

https://wiki.debian.org/BridgeNetworkConnections

You could probably do the same thing with dnsmasq and iptables.

More than one way to skin a cat.

I think there's also a port of ddwrt for the OPZ, so you could also use
that.  A lot more horsepower in any case than the Win98 box (quad-core
1.4GHz ARM, IIRC)

--Chuck





From matt at 9track.net  Mon May 13 02:51:59 2019
From: matt at 9track.net (Matt Burke)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 08:51:59 +0100
Subject: TMSCP docs?
In-Reply-To: <CADBZjLb5gFxRpv_aukpvzsy=A=CEqb4t6pQb4fiR8q4EpgjU0A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADBZjLb5gFxRpv_aukpvzsy=A=CEqb4t6pQb4fiR8q4EpgjU0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <97168d9e-f80f-54d4-18a3-083c2c47edc9@9track.net>

On 13/05/2019 00:05, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote:
> I've been working on an MSCP controller implemented on top of Joerg Hoppe's
> Unibone and that's been going fairly well, modulo a few oddities here and
> there (if you have a Unibone and want to beta-test it, it's up at
> https://github.com/livingcomputermuseum/UniBone).
>
> It'd be nice to extend it to do TMSCP as well.  Is there an equivalent to
> the "MSCP Basic Disk Functions Manual" (AA-L619A-TK) for TMSCP?  I can
> probably glean most of the information I need from various *nix device
> driver sources out there, but it'd be nice to have the definitive reference
> on hand, and so far it's been eluding me.  But maybe I'm just not looking
> hard enough...
>
> Thanks!
> Josh

The protocol specification for MSCP and TMSCP is available here:

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/dsa/mscp/

You might also want to look at the implementation of MSCP and TMSCP in Simh:

https://github.com/simh/simh/blob/master/PDP11/pdp11_rq.c
https://github.com/simh/simh/blob/master/PDP11/pdp11_tq.c

Matt

From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Mon May 13 04:34:48 2019
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 10:34:48 +0100
Subject: TMSCP docs?
In-Reply-To: <97168d9e-f80f-54d4-18a3-083c2c47edc9@9track.net>
References: <CADBZjLb5gFxRpv_aukpvzsy=A=CEqb4t6pQb4fiR8q4EpgjU0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <97168d9e-f80f-54d4-18a3-083c2c47edc9@9track.net>
Message-ID: <91034765-dfe1-7d87-4429-8c1b7e1e85a0@dunnington.plus.com>

On 13/05/2019 08:51, Matt Burke via cctalk wrote:

> The protocol specification for MSCP and TMSCP is available here:
> 
> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/dsa/mscp/
> 
> You might also want to look at the implementation of MSCP and TMSCP in Simh:
> 
> https://github.com/simh/simh/blob/master/PDP11/pdp11_rq.c
> https://github.com/simh/simh/blob/master/PDP11/pdp11_tq.c

Not so useful for tape, but the original MSCP reference which Josh 
referred to, the "UDA50 Programmer's Documentation Kit" (QP-905-GZ 
comprising AA-L619A-TK, AA-L620A-TK, AA-L621A-TK), is on Bitsavers at
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/disc/uda50/
and at
http://www.dunnington.info/public/MSCP/

-- 
Pete
Pete Turnbull

From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net  Mon May 13 05:02:46 2019
From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 11:02:46 +0100
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <4F49BB9C660F44B8B67371D3BAB651AA@CharlesDellLap>
References: <4F49BB9C660F44B8B67371D3BAB651AA@CharlesDellLap>
Message-ID: <CAEvVyqEpQMEZiKiTudfsVQGbe1afPghEDzjFbgEOCR=uL+xTRg@mail.gmail.com>

I just run PUTR under DosBox on a modern PC.  A pain but... easier.

On Sun, 12 May 2019 at 23:41, Charles via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> I have tried for two days to get wireless networking running on my old PC
> under Win 98SE, so I can use PUTR without a separate partition or boot. XP
> is on an 8.4 GB drive. 98SE is on an older 540 MB drive.
>
> There are two network cards (a Netgear WPN311 with Atheros chipset, and an
> Encore ENWLI-G2 with Realtek 8185 chip) and neither will work with Win98SE.
> I have tried the manufacturer's drivers, Atheros drivers, Realtek
> drivers...
> none of it works. The Realtek driver installs but gives a fault in
> RUNDLL32.
>
> Netgear's website claims that the WPN311 can run under 98SE and later.
> Some
> sources for that driver package say it starts with XP. Although I would
> tend
> to believe the manufacturer...
> The same Netgear card in the same motherboard was working correctly with
> the
> XP drive.
>
> I even did a fresh install of 98SE. Then installed the WPN311 software,
> then
> the card. Windows says the card is installed and working properly.
> But the Netgear utility won't run (hangs, Task Manager showing wlancfg5
> not
> responding). That's usually because it can't see the card.
>
> Searching the net including various forums from years ago hasn't helped.
> So I'm about to give up. Wasted enough hours on this. Back to XP with a
> DOS
> partition for running PUTR.
> Unless someone has a better idea :)
>
> thanks
> Charles
>
>
>
>
>
>

-- 
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems:  "The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net

--------
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift

From lproven at gmail.com  Mon May 13 06:18:01 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 13:18:01 +0200
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <CAEvVyqEpQMEZiKiTudfsVQGbe1afPghEDzjFbgEOCR=uL+xTRg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4F49BB9C660F44B8B67371D3BAB651AA@CharlesDellLap>
 <CAEvVyqEpQMEZiKiTudfsVQGbe1afPghEDzjFbgEOCR=uL+xTRg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCE1M8OOrj6AGngpUk2ZmQUD=dEtsdfDe_s=6mOB093fqg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 13 May 2019 at 12:02, John Many Jars via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> I just run PUTR under DosBox on a modern PC.  A pain but... easier.

Can that read/write physical media?

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Mon May 13 07:31:07 2019
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 13:31:07 +0100
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCE1M8OOrj6AGngpUk2ZmQUD=dEtsdfDe_s=6mOB093fqg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4F49BB9C660F44B8B67371D3BAB651AA@CharlesDellLap>
 <CAEvVyqEpQMEZiKiTudfsVQGbe1afPghEDzjFbgEOCR=uL+xTRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCE1M8OOrj6AGngpUk2ZmQUD=dEtsdfDe_s=6mOB093fqg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <047101d50987$beba1a00$3c2e4e00$@gmail.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Liam Proven via
> cctalk
> Sent: 13 May 2019 12:18
> To: John Many Jars <john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net>; General Discussion:
> On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Network cards and Win98SE
> 
> On Mon, 13 May 2019 at 12:02, John Many Jars via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > I just run PUTR under DosBox on a modern PC.  A pain but... easier.
> 
> Can that read/write physical media?

I suspect the simplest way would be to use something like this:-

https://www.comms-express.com/products/tp-link-tl-wa850re/

goes into a wired connection but lets you keep the network security high..


> 
> --
> Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
> Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
> Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
> UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

Dave
G4UGM


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Mon May 13 08:20:39 2019
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 09:20:39 -0400
Subject: How were 32-bit minis built in the 70s/80?
In-Reply-To: <5CD79257.2020803@pico-systems.com>
References: <20190511231458.GA10756@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <5CD79257.2020803@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <7619BB41-82D1-4137-9B52-1184F93E52A9@comcast.net>



> On May 11, 2019, at 11:26 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On 05/11/2019 06:14 PM, Warren Toomey via cctalk wrote:
>> I'm building my own 8-bit CPU from TTL chips, and this caused me to think:
>> how were 32-bit minis built in the late 70s and early 80s? In particular,
>> how was the ALU built? I know about the 74181 4-bit ALU, and I know (from
>> reading A Soul of a New Machine) that PALs were also used.
>> 
>> Did companies get custom chips fabricated, or was it all off-the-shelf chips
>> with a few PALs sprinkled in?
>> 
> There were also the AMD2901, 2903, 29203 family of bit-slice components, with the 2910 sequencer. 

The VAX 730 was built with 2901s.

DEC used 2901s in other places too; the UDA50 was built that way (2901 with 2910 sequencer).  They had a custom assembler with two opcodes per line, one for the ALU and one for the sequencer.  The condition codes were those from the preceding instruction, not the current ALU instruction, so you could see oddball stuff like this:

	clr r0; bne foo

A bit like branch delay slot programming in MIPS...

On the subject of custom chips:  DEC used gate arrays a lot.  For example there is the Pro 380 in which much of the discrete chip logic from the Pro 350 has been absorbed into one or two gate arrays, with all the unnecessary flexibility of the original chips omitted.  Those were CMOS I believe.

The Western Research Lab (in Palo Alto, down the road from Stanford) had a project somewhat later to build VLSI full-custom designs in ECL.  They built a whole set of design tools that were very clever, allowing mixing of description anywhere from geometry to C-like programs.  And the actual layout generation was rule-based so they could switch to a different factory that used different design rules with pretty much just a recompilation of the design.  They needed that; there were a number of ECL fabs at the time but they were all shutting down.  They designed a 1 GHz Alpha, and/or MIPS, and built a number of test chips but I don't know that a complete CPU was ever made.  They also did early work on how to power and cool high powered chips; those designs ran over 100 watts which at the time was utterly unheard of.

There are some internal tech reports documenting this work; I don't know that any of it was ever published outside.

	paul


From edcross at gmail.com  Mon May 13 09:16:46 2019
From: edcross at gmail.com (Ed C.)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 16:16:46 +0200
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <5c9108c6-8212-97c3-3df9-8131e966ed69@ljw.me.uk>
References: <20190416160807.EFBA718C0BD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAL9NafEcfxMFugS-Yg5XE-4e-iusZLM57R06nZd-ziGWXParGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+dcho9oWd0X6ub78s93+mA_k8aE+9f=bVcMSYFE909wp6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1904162008570.10338@linuxserv.home>
 <CANij+deS81TVkZBqPQLq-prP7ZOB2+XydYu528TbT7JgU-SDBA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5c9108c6-8212-97c3-3df9-8131e966ed69@ljw.me.uk>
Message-ID: <CA+6V906=8FMk2qGON86=KaHfL_r6mKC3FcDyZ70YzZQpqM2vAQ@mail.gmail.com>

Anybody knows what happened with the German IBM 360? Was it ever picked up?
Will photos or details about the lot ever surface? Regards.

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 10:47 PM Lawrence Wilkinson via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 16/04/2019 22:22, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:
> > Clearly the pile was not purchased for scrap, so it will be
> > interesting to see where it ends up. We may never know, with the
> > secretive nature of big iron collectors..
>
> I know one of the group that bought it, but I am not sure if they are on
> the list.
>
> I believe the intention is to attempt to restore the /20 + peripherals.
> Not sure about plans for the 370. It is a huge task, but they are keen.
>
> So rest assured it won't be scrapped, and it won't disappear into a
> collection.
>
> Please don't ask me who it is. They are welcome to announce themselves
> if they wish.
>
> And it's not classic, but here's an IBM z/Series converted into a beer
> fridge:
> https://www.flickr.com/gp/ljw/NrV130
> https://www.flickr.com/gp/ljw/35y797
>
> --
> Lawrence Wilkinson                                 lawrence at ljw.me.uk
> Ph +41(0)79 926 1036                             http://www.ljw.me.uk
>
>
>

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Mon May 13 10:31:02 2019
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 10:31:02 -0500
Subject: How were 32-bit minis built in the 70s/80?
In-Reply-To: <7619BB41-82D1-4137-9B52-1184F93E52A9@comcast.net>
References: <20190511231458.GA10756@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <5CD79257.2020803@pico-systems.com>
 <7619BB41-82D1-4137-9B52-1184F93E52A9@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAALmimnLkSC2HDtZX04QmzvNF20Er2cA5M7Ex2QoRv_-PMG9+w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 8:20 AM Paul Koning via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> > There were also the AMD2901, 2903, 29203 family of bit-slice components, with the 2910 sequencer.
>
> The VAX 730 was built with 2901s.

Yep.  I pulled some 2901s from a VAX 11/730 CPU board in the early 90s
to repair a Tempest "Math Box" (we were doing our own repairs on our
VAXen in the late 80s/early 90s, and we had a stack of dead and
questionable boards in our engineering area, so one gave its life to
repair an arcade machine).

> On the subject of custom chips:  DEC used gate arrays a lot.  For example there is the Pro 380 in which much of the discrete chip logic from the Pro 350 has been absorbed into one or two gate arrays, with all the unnecessary flexibility of the original chips omitted.

What sort of flexibility was omitted?  I have both models and the
board layout difference is obvious (there's so much room on the Pro380
that it has a huge RAM field right on the mainboard instead of on two
daughter cards (plus any on the CTI bus).

-ethan

From drb at msu.edu  Mon May 13 10:59:57 2019
From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 11:59:57 -0400
Subject: How were 32-bit minis built in the 70s/80?
In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sat, 11 May 2019 20:32:36 -0400.)
 <20190512003236.DF2491C8F74@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
References: <20190512003236.DF2491C8F74@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
 <20190511231458.GA10756@minnie.tuhs.org> 
Message-ID: <20190513155957.BD8131C94AD@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>

 > Prime used 74181 chips for some of their CPUs.  I have a 150 CPU
 > board (1980, though it was likely a relatively minor rehash of an
 > older board), for example.

To extend this comment, I found 74S181 chips in the schematics for
Prime's first machines, the P100/P200/P300, with dates of 1972-73.

De

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Mon May 13 11:35:13 2019
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 12:35:13 -0400
Subject: How were 32-bit minis built in the 70s/80?
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimnLkSC2HDtZX04QmzvNF20Er2cA5M7Ex2QoRv_-PMG9+w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190511231458.GA10756@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <5CD79257.2020803@pico-systems.com>
 <7619BB41-82D1-4137-9B52-1184F93E52A9@comcast.net>
 <CAALmimnLkSC2HDtZX04QmzvNF20Er2cA5M7Ex2QoRv_-PMG9+w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E0C4DD76-9FBF-4B64-AAE2-BEE89B75ABE5@comcast.net>



> On May 13, 2019, at 11:31 AM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 8:20 AM Paul Koning via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> ...
>> On the subject of custom chips:  DEC used gate arrays a lot.  For example there is the Pro 380 in which much of the discrete chip logic from the Pro 350 has been absorbed into one or two gate arrays, with all the unnecessary flexibility of the original chips omitted.
> 
> What sort of flexibility was omitted?  I have both models and the
> board layout difference is obvious (there's so much room on the Pro380
> that it has a huge RAM field right on the mainboard instead of on two
> daughter cards (plus any on the CTI bus).

The 350 uses Intel chips for various functions, for example an interrupt controller chip (from the original PC, I think?) that has a bunch of mode choices.  Some of them are typical Intel bad ideas, like edge triggered interrupts.  Also, vectors are programmable.

In the DEC software one choice was used and the others were not needed; for example, interrupts are level triggered because that's the only right way to do it.  So in the 380, the gate array implements an interrupt controller that's like the used settings of the 350 chips, but omitting all the other modes that aren't used.

As a result, emulating a 380 is quite a lot easier than emulating a 350, unless you make it a "380 style subset of the 350".

	paul


From derschjo at gmail.com  Mon May 13 11:47:15 2019
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 09:47:15 -0700
Subject: TMSCP docs?
In-Reply-To: <97168d9e-f80f-54d4-18a3-083c2c47edc9@9track.net>
References: <CADBZjLb5gFxRpv_aukpvzsy=A=CEqb4t6pQb4fiR8q4EpgjU0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <97168d9e-f80f-54d4-18a3-083c2c47edc9@9track.net>
Message-ID: <CADBZjLZ4H3ZA-AxraiRcos-=hOyhDHSEDq2HJMdsmeQ66rwvWw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 12:52 AM Matt Burke via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 13/05/2019 00:05, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote:
> > I've been working on an MSCP controller implemented on top of Joerg
> Hoppe's
> > Unibone and that's been going fairly well, modulo a few oddities here and
> > there (if you have a Unibone and want to beta-test it, it's up at
> > https://github.com/livingcomputermuseum/UniBone).
> >
> > It'd be nice to extend it to do TMSCP as well.  Is there an equivalent to
> > the "MSCP Basic Disk Functions Manual" (AA-L619A-TK) for TMSCP?  I can
> > probably glean most of the information I need from various *nix device
> > driver sources out there, but it'd be nice to have the definitive
> reference
> > on hand, and so far it's been eluding me.  But maybe I'm just not looking
> > hard enough...
> >
> > Thanks!
> > Josh
>
> The protocol specification for MSCP and TMSCP is available here:
>
> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/dsa/mscp/
>
> You might also want to look at the implementation of MSCP and TMSCP in
> Simh:
>
> https://github.com/simh/simh/blob/master/PDP11/pdp11_rq.c
> https://github.com/simh/simh/blob/master/PDP11/pdp11_tq.c
>
> Matt
>

Thanks!  I'd completely missed that directory on Bitsavers (thrown off by
"dsa" I guess) and nothing turned up in my various searches.

And I've been referring to SIMH from time to time on some of the shadowy
corners of the spec, but having the real spec on hand helps put things into
context.

Thanks again,
- Josh

From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon May 13 12:49:28 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 10:49:28 -0700
Subject: TMSCP docs?
In-Reply-To: <CADBZjLZ4H3ZA-AxraiRcos-=hOyhDHSEDq2HJMdsmeQ66rwvWw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADBZjLb5gFxRpv_aukpvzsy=A=CEqb4t6pQb4fiR8q4EpgjU0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <97168d9e-f80f-54d4-18a3-083c2c47edc9@9track.net>
 <CADBZjLZ4H3ZA-AxraiRcos-=hOyhDHSEDq2HJMdsmeQ66rwvWw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9bfb3bf4-4b46-1185-65e8-8ec7d75eb987@bitsavers.org>



On 5/13/19 9:47 AM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote:

> Thanks!  I'd completely missed that directory on Bitsavers (thrown off by
> "dsa" I guess) and nothing turned up in my various searches.

I had hoped to find more on the HSC-x0 controllers but tech details haven't
surfaced.



From athornton at gmail.com  Mon May 13 15:48:30 2019
From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 13:48:30 -0700
Subject: KCC on TOPS-20 linking question
Message-ID: <CAP2nic3aLxNW4Ve3zsRTC_ev+0NDW4SaiD=HAVPiRW2qS9F7Kw@mail.gmail.com>

So, I've been porting Frotz to TOPS-20.
https://github.com/athornton/tops20-frotz

It's been going fine, except that I have something going on with the linker
I don't have enough expertise to understand.

On Mark Crispin's panda distribution, "cc -o frotz *.c" does the trick.
But on TOPS-20 on the LCML's TOAD-2, I get a bunch of undefined global
symbols, which all seem to be from libc.

That suggests to me that KCC at LCML isn't configured to automatically
trigger the linker with the right library path (something like
unix:<root.usr.lib>) for the C standard libraries.

So the first question is: where's the KCC configuration stored, so we can
add the right library path, and the second one is, failing that, how do I
link all my .rel files against the C library to get a working executable
(an answer simplified from "read the linker manual" would be appreciated;
I've started that but it's a little daunting and I suspect it will take me
a while to chew through)?

Adam

From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net  Mon May 13 16:56:23 2019
From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 16:56:23 -0500
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
Message-ID: <2095DF9B35304DBA83C3D35D2F2BA850@CharlesDellLap>

Thanks for the tips. The reason I?m not using Ethernet cable is because the 
Vintage Computer Room (where this PC resides) is on the 2nd floor around a 
couple of corners, and my DSL modem/router and unfiltered phone line are in 
the 1st floor study. Would take a long run and some drilling, or duct taping 
it to the banister and hoping the dog and cats don?t eat it ;)

However, after finally giving up on the wireless cards... I realized that I 
had a simple Linksys LNE100TX Ethernet card in the PC junk pile. I installed 
that (it was recognized by 98SE and the drivers worked first time too), then 
brought my laptop upstairs and set it up as a bridge. That works, but is 
clumsy and requires another computer.

My next idea was to find a wireless device to connect to the Ethernet card. 
I found out about WLAN, bridging, and most importantly, that many models of 
router can be reflashed with dd-wrt software, and act as the bridge I 
needed! Also in the closet was a Linksys E1200 router, which is one of the 
models supported by dd-wrt. So I flashed it and hooked it up.

After a bit of struggle (incomplete directions but I managed to fill in the 
missing pieces) I now have wireless network and Internet access on the old 
machine :)
Incidentally, PUTR now works perfectly since I?m running 98SE/DOS. 


From cclist at sydex.com  Mon May 13 16:58:18 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 14:58:18 -0700
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <FF21A99C-71ED-40FB-84AB-72F7895898B1@tnetconsulting.net>
References: <4F49BB9C660F44B8B67371D3BAB651AA@CharlesDellLap>
 <eed947dc-6739-4a73-109c-19ccc3ff94b6@sydex.com>
 <8a3b04c5-32c9-b86b-7051-429be6d680e8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <00e08bd8-4de5-254d-c765-f4938f04701e@sydex.com>
 <FF21A99C-71ED-40FB-84AB-72F7895898B1@tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <7074db9a-ccb9-12f0-239c-a70f19624a76@sydex.com>

On 5/13/19 11:58 AM, Grant Taylor wrote:
> On May 12, 2019, at 10:17 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> Don't know a thing about gaming and never wanted to--wrong generation, I guess.
> 
> Perhaps ?gaming adapter? is the wrong term for this audience.
> 
> Let me describe it as a type of switch that you plug the wired computer into, go to a management webpage there on and give it the wireless network information.<snip>

I don't want to get into a long discussion; I merely wanted to point out
that you're unlikely to find the term "gaming adapter" in Linux tech
docs as they're not written for that audience. And it's very likely that
something with the Debian kernel will be used on an OPZ.

--Chuck




From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Mon May 13 17:39:03 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 16:39:03 -0600
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <2095DF9B35304DBA83C3D35D2F2BA850@CharlesDellLap>
References: <2095DF9B35304DBA83C3D35D2F2BA850@CharlesDellLap>
Message-ID: <ada02512-2597-6f92-5685-2c7c9a8b9f4e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 5/13/19 3:56 PM, Charles via cctalk wrote:
> Thanks for the tips. The reason I?m not using Ethernet cable is because 
> the Vintage Computer Room (where this PC resides) is on the 2nd floor 
> around a couple of corners, and my DSL modem/router and unfiltered phone 
> line are in the 1st floor study. Would take a long run and some 
> drilling, or duct taping it to the banister and hoping the dog and cats 
> don?t eat it ;)
> 
> However, after finally giving up on the wireless cards... I realized 
> that I had a simple Linksys LNE100TX Ethernet card in the PC junk pile. 
> I installed that (it was recognized by 98SE and the drivers worked first 
> time too), then brought my laptop upstairs and set it up as a bridge. 
> That works, but is clumsy and requires another computer.

So you turned your laptop into a gaming adapter.

> My next idea was to find a wireless device to connect to the Ethernet 
> card. I found out about WLAN, bridging, and most importantly, that many 
> models of router can be reflashed with dd-wrt software, and act as the 
> bridge I needed! Also in the closet was a Linksys E1200 router, which is 
> one of the models supported by dd-wrt. So I flashed it and hooked it up.

You turned the Linksys into a gaming adapter.

> After a bit of struggle (incomplete directions but I managed to fill in 
> the missing pieces) I now have wireless network and Internet access on 
> the old machine :)

You could have installed a gaming adapter, opened the web page, 
connected it to the wireless and been done.

> Incidentally, PUTR now works perfectly since I?m running 98SE/DOS.

Ya.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Mon May 13 17:47:11 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 16:47:11 -0600
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <7074db9a-ccb9-12f0-239c-a70f19624a76@sydex.com>
References: <4F49BB9C660F44B8B67371D3BAB651AA@CharlesDellLap>
 <eed947dc-6739-4a73-109c-19ccc3ff94b6@sydex.com>
 <8a3b04c5-32c9-b86b-7051-429be6d680e8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <00e08bd8-4de5-254d-c765-f4938f04701e@sydex.com>
 <FF21A99C-71ED-40FB-84AB-72F7895898B1@tnetconsulting.net>
 <7074db9a-ccb9-12f0-239c-a70f19624a76@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <4c5552f2-f9da-6f12-5606-5036f5a35fc0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 5/13/19 3:58 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> I don't want to get into a long discussion; I merely wanted to point 
> out that you're unlikely to find the term "gaming adapter" in Linux 
> tech docs as they're not written for that audience. And it's very 
> likely that something with the Debian kernel will be used on an OPZ.

You /might/ not find the term in a Linux tech doc.  But I'd be somewhat 
surprised if you didn't.

The first eight hits on a google search for "gaming adapter" are 
directly relevant.

Spend a few minutes looking at any of them and it should become clear 
that any Ethernet connected computer / device / game console / printer / 
etc. can be put onto wireless.  Knowing that, it should be possible to 
realize that any standard wired Ethernet card that Linux supports will work.

1)  Connect the computer to the gaming adapter with a 1 ~ 3 foot 
Ethernet cable.
2)  Open a web browser to the gaming adapter's configuration interface.
3)  Configure the gaming adapter for the wireless network.
4)  (Maybe) reboot or obtain a new IP.
5)  Use the wired computer on the wireless network via the gaming adapter.

ProTip:  Plug the gaming adapter into a switch if you want multiple 
wired computers to be able to use the wireless.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From couryhouse at aol.com  Mon May 13 18:02:36 2019
From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 23:02:36 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
References: <1111146949.98067.1557788556098.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1111146949.98067.1557788556098@mail.yahoo.com>

I use? ? 3? com? stuff? I? think? ? the other brands? ?I? toss in a? box in the warehouse.
later? ?3? com? stuff auto? finds? etc? works? fine... lats a long? time!
 ( paint it? grey and It? will not? rust )
Ed#
In a message dated 5/13/2019 3:39:15 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:
On 5/13/19 3:56 PM, Charles via cctalk wrote:
> Thanks for the tips. The reason I?m not using Ethernet cable is because 
> the Vintage Computer Room (where this PC resides) is on the 2nd floor 
> around a couple of corners, and my DSL modem/router and unfiltered phone 
> line are in the 1st floor study. Would take a long run and some 
> drilling, or duct taping it to the banister and hoping the dog and cats 
> don?t eat it ;)
> 
> However, after finally giving up on the wireless cards... I realized 
> that I had a simple Linksys LNE100TX Ethernet card in the PC junk pile. 
> I installed that (it was recognized by 98SE and the drivers worked first 
> time too), then brought my laptop upstairs and set it up as a bridge. 
> That works, but is clumsy and requires another computer.

So you turned your laptop into a gaming adapter.

> My next idea was to find a wireless device to connect to the Ethernet 
> card. I found out about WLAN, bridging, and most importantly, that many 
> models of router can be reflashed with dd-wrt software, and act as the 
> bridge I needed! Also in the closet was a Linksys E1200 router, which is 
> one of the models supported by dd-wrt. So I flashed it and hooked it up.

You turned the Linksys into a gaming adapter.

> After a bit of struggle (incomplete directions but I managed to fill in 
> the missing pieces) I now have wireless network and Internet access on 
> the old machine :)

You could have installed a gaming adapter, opened the web page, 
connected it to the wireless and been done.

> Incidentally, PUTR now works perfectly since I?m running 98SE/DOS.

Ya.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net  Mon May 13 18:05:56 2019
From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 18:05:56 -0500
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
Message-ID: <DAC1FA2B90F34C15B68E51FCF8C93925@CharlesDellLap>

>You could have installed a gaming adapter, opened the web page,
>connected it to the wireless and been done.

Sure, but you assume I know anything about online gaming (I don't); it would 
require purchasing one, *and* I already had the Linksys router and card, 
just gathering dust for years!
I like to improvise with what's on hand rather than spending money on a 
really ancient PC :) 


From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Mon May 13 18:21:28 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 17:21:28 -0600
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <DAC1FA2B90F34C15B68E51FCF8C93925@CharlesDellLap>
References: <DAC1FA2B90F34C15B68E51FCF8C93925@CharlesDellLap>
Message-ID: <af2649ae-572f-e135-f0b1-f610439fa34d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 5/13/19 5:05 PM, Charles via cctalk wrote:
> Sure, but you assume I know anything about online gaming (I don't);

No, I do not.

"gaming adapter" is a broad category like "vacuum / hoover" or "copier / 
Xerox" or "tissue / Kleenex" or "automobile".  All of which have many 
names that can be used equally across many different broad categories.

"Gaming adapters" take a wired computer and connect it to a wireless 
network.

The fact that it has "gaming" in it's name does not in any way imply 
that you must know anything about gaming of any kind.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From cclist at sydex.com  Mon May 13 18:37:06 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 16:37:06 -0700
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <DAC1FA2B90F34C15B68E51FCF8C93925@CharlesDellLap>
References: <DAC1FA2B90F34C15B68E51FCF8C93925@CharlesDellLap>
Message-ID: <08b1377e-b9ad-e08a-d367-d48ea4d1b02a@sydex.com>

On 5/13/19 4:05 PM, Charles via cctalk wrote:
>> You could have installed a gaming adapter, opened the web page,
>> connected it to the wireless and been done.
> 
> Sure, but you assume I know anything about online gaming (I don't); it
> would require purchasing one, *and* I already had the Linksys router and
> card, just gathering dust for years!

I guess it's a common human tendency to think that values that apply to
today's younger adults also apply to those of us in our "golden" years.

The last game that I recall playing with any frequency was Chess 3.0 on
a Cyber 74.   Other games over the years have held my interest for only
a couple of hours, tops.  For the last 30 years, I haven't even bothered
to look.

Fred, how about you?

--Chuck

From cclist at sydex.com  Mon May 13 18:38:36 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 16:38:36 -0700
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <af2649ae-572f-e135-f0b1-f610439fa34d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <DAC1FA2B90F34C15B68E51FCF8C93925@CharlesDellLap>
 <af2649ae-572f-e135-f0b1-f610439fa34d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <dba18412-ded0-20bf-c7e8-f32c5d4fa1ca@sydex.com>

On 5/13/19 4:21 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:

> "gaming adapter" is a broad category like "vacuum / hoover" or "copier /
> Xerox" or "tissue / Kleenex" or "automobile".? All of which have many
> names that can be used equally across many different broad categories.
> 
> "Gaming adapters" take a wired computer and connect it to a wireless
> network.

So which term came first, "gaming adapter" or "network bridging"?

--Chuck


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon May 13 18:57:06 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 16:57:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <08b1377e-b9ad-e08a-d367-d48ea4d1b02a@sydex.com>
References: <DAC1FA2B90F34C15B68E51FCF8C93925@CharlesDellLap>
 <08b1377e-b9ad-e08a-d367-d48ea4d1b02a@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905131650540.18860@shell.lmi.net>

On Mon, 13 May 2019, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> The last game that I recall playing with any frequency was Chess 3.0 on
> a Cyber 74.   Other games over the years have held my interest for only
> a couple of hours, tops.  For the last 30 years, I haven't even bothered
> to look.
>
> Fred, how about you?

Adventure in the 1970s, Lode Runner and Tetris in the 1980s


I do sudokus ( www.websudoku.com/?level-4 )


Allison, how about you?
Al, how about you?
ARD, how about you?
Geneb has a flight simulator, . . .

From malcolm at avitech.com.au  Mon May 13 19:00:39 2019
From: malcolm at avitech.com.au (malcolm at avitech.com.au)
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 10:00:39 +1000
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
Message-ID: <007401d509e8$1267c1b0$37374510$@avitech.com.au>


> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 12 May 2019 17:41:24 -0500
> From: "Charles" <charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net>
> To: "cctalk digest" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
> Message-ID: <4F49BB9C660F44B8B67371D3BAB651AA at CharlesDellLap>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> 	reply-type=original
> 
> I have tried for two days to get wireless networking running on my old PC
> under Win 98SE, so I can use PUTR without a separate partition or boot. XP
> is on an 8.4 GB drive. 98SE is on an older 540 MB drive.
> 
> There are two network cards (a Netgear WPN311 with Atheros chipset, and
> an
> Encore ENWLI-G2 with Realtek 8185 chip) and neither will work with
> Win98SE.
> I have tried the manufacturer's drivers, Atheros drivers, Realtek
drivers...
> none of it works. The Realtek driver installs but gives a fault in
RUNDLL32.
> 
> Netgear's website claims that the WPN311 can run under 98SE and later.
> Some
> sources for that driver package say it starts with XP. Although I would
tend
> to believe the manufacturer...
> The same Netgear card in the same motherboard was working correctly with
> the
> XP drive.
> 
> I even did a fresh install of 98SE. Then installed the WPN311 software,
then
> the card. Windows says the card is installed and working properly.
> But the Netgear utility won't run (hangs, Task Manager showing wlancfg5
not
> responding). That's usually because it can't see the card.
> 
> Searching the net including various forums from years ago hasn't helped.
> So I'm about to give up. Wasted enough hours on this. Back to XP with a
DOS
> partition for running PUTR.
> Unless someone has a better idea :)
> 
> thanks
> Charles

Hi Charles,

About 5 years ago I spent way too much time trying to sort out a PC platform
that would meet my needs for disk imaging (ImageDisk), PUTR, network file
transfers and ISA-based EPROM programmers.  I eventually settled on a
Pentium II bare motherboard, AHA-1522A SCSI card (for its floppy controller
which supports single-density disks), CF card as a hard drive, FDADAP
adapter (for 8" drives), a generic ISA network interface card, MSDOS 6.22,
Norton Commander and Michael Brutman's mTCP package.

With this setup I can run PUTR and ImageDisk without any Windows-related
issues. File transfers to other computers are a breeze: mTCP includes an FTP
server and I just run FileZilla on my Windows machines to connect to the
MSDOS machine.  Alternatively I can power down the MSDOS machine, and plug
the CF card into a USB adapter and copy files that way instead.

I appreciate these suggestions won't help if you need to have Win98 on the
same machine for other reasons.

Malcolm.



From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Mon May 13 20:52:08 2019
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 20:52:08 -0500
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <4c5552f2-f9da-6f12-5606-5036f5a35fc0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <4F49BB9C660F44B8B67371D3BAB651AA@CharlesDellLap>
 <eed947dc-6739-4a73-109c-19ccc3ff94b6@sydex.com>
 <8a3b04c5-32c9-b86b-7051-429be6d680e8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <00e08bd8-4de5-254d-c765-f4938f04701e@sydex.com>
 <FF21A99C-71ED-40FB-84AB-72F7895898B1@tnetconsulting.net>
 <7074db9a-ccb9-12f0-239c-a70f19624a76@sydex.com>
 <4c5552f2-f9da-6f12-5606-5036f5a35fc0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <CAALmimn0i91z-9S5wGwbJpBSZYkaSCSQX4n2wGuKaqsQwoY3ng@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 5:47 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> On 5/13/19 3:58 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> > I don't want to get into a long discussion; I merely wanted to point
> > out that you're unlikely to find the term "gaming adapter" in Linux
> > tech docs as they're not written for that audience.
>
> You /might/ not find the term in a Linux tech doc.  But I'd be somewhat
> surprised if you didn't.
<
> The first eight hits on a google search for "gaming adapter" are
> directly relevant.

I had to google "gaming adapter" because I had never heard the term
before, and I've been working with 802.11 since 2001 when all we had
was 2mbps.

I don't have a game console to hook up, and if I did, I'd run a
wire... so "gaming adapter" was a null term for me prior to this
thread.

-ethan

From rollerton at gmail.com  Mon May 13 21:16:46 2019
From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 19:16:46 -0700
Subject: PDP-11/40 available, Arizona
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905111152150.21782@shell.lmi.net>
References: <2112889400.2882712.1557585641551.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2112889400.2882712.1557585641551@mail.yahoo.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905111152150.21782@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CANdYBH9hudLdM2XBdA9-ksJ-As2_eTvJFmVmojsGsVZ+e4kscQ@mail.gmail.com>

where is this located?  I might  be able to help with moving/storage.


On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 11:54 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Sat, 11 May 2019, ED SHATTNER wrote:
> > JUST   DOWN THE   ROAD A  FEW  HOURS  FROM  US HERE!
> > ED#
>
> You should go check it out.  Even if there isn't anything that you want,
> you might be able to help, or store things for those who can't transport
> right away.
>
>

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Mon May 13 21:50:17 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 20:50:17 -0600
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <dba18412-ded0-20bf-c7e8-f32c5d4fa1ca@sydex.com>
References: <DAC1FA2B90F34C15B68E51FCF8C93925@CharlesDellLap>
 <af2649ae-572f-e135-f0b1-f610439fa34d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <dba18412-ded0-20bf-c7e8-f32c5d4fa1ca@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <8e71d65b-9eaa-1a74-930e-85c260d45c44@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 5/13/19 5:38 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> So which term came first, "gaming adapter" or "network bridging"?

Without a doubt, "network bridging".  But good luck going into the 
average box store (or possibly even online etailers) and getting someone 
to know what a "network bridging" device is.  Conversely, most of them 
will know what a "gaming adapter" is.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Mon May 13 21:54:06 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 20:54:06 -0600
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimn0i91z-9S5wGwbJpBSZYkaSCSQX4n2wGuKaqsQwoY3ng@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4F49BB9C660F44B8B67371D3BAB651AA@CharlesDellLap>
 <eed947dc-6739-4a73-109c-19ccc3ff94b6@sydex.com>
 <8a3b04c5-32c9-b86b-7051-429be6d680e8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <00e08bd8-4de5-254d-c765-f4938f04701e@sydex.com>
 <FF21A99C-71ED-40FB-84AB-72F7895898B1@tnetconsulting.net>
 <7074db9a-ccb9-12f0-239c-a70f19624a76@sydex.com>
 <4c5552f2-f9da-6f12-5606-5036f5a35fc0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAALmimn0i91z-9S5wGwbJpBSZYkaSCSQX4n2wGuKaqsQwoY3ng@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5fbefc84-3256-456e-2740-b306c03c56fb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 5/13/19 7:52 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:
> I had to google "gaming adapter" because I had never heard the term 
> before, and I've been working with 802.11 since 2001 when all we had 
> was 2mbps.

Maybe it's a regional term.  I've heard other people use it in multiple 
states here in the U.S.A.

But you did look it up, and I'm guessing you now have an idea where it 
could be used, even for things other than gaming consoles.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From cclist at sydex.com  Mon May 13 22:48:29 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 20:48:29 -0700
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <8e71d65b-9eaa-1a74-930e-85c260d45c44@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <DAC1FA2B90F34C15B68E51FCF8C93925@CharlesDellLap>
 <af2649ae-572f-e135-f0b1-f610439fa34d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <dba18412-ded0-20bf-c7e8-f32c5d4fa1ca@sydex.com>
 <8e71d65b-9eaa-1a74-930e-85c260d45c44@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <b2c49ffc-508c-4e5c-7fd7-29e99bb5e5c8@sydex.com>

On 5/13/19 7:50 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> On 5/13/19 5:38 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>> So which term came first, "gaming adapter" or "network bridging"?
> 
> Without a doubt, "network bridging".? But good luck going into the
> average box store (or possibly even online etailers) and getting someone
> to know what a "network bridging" device is.? Conversely, most of them
> will know what a "gaming adapter" is.

Oh, I've given up on being understood.  "RPG" today doesn't mean a
computer language anymore.  It means either a game or a type of
explosive projectile launcher.

--Chuck


From elson at pico-systems.com  Mon May 13 22:57:37 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 22:57:37 -0500
Subject: IBM 1620 manuals
In-Reply-To: <df1e7cdb-55ed-abbc-9e46-a1cd69010c9d@bitsavers.org>
References: <df1e7cdb-55ed-abbc-9e46-a1cd69010c9d@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <5CDA3CB1.70904@pico-systems.com>

I just discovered a binder with 2 IBM 1620 manuals.  A quick 
check shows bitsavers has these and newer editions of them.

So, does anybody want :

IBM 1620 Central Processing Unit, Model 2  (Form A26-5781-1)

and

IBM 1620 Monitor II System Reference Manual (Form C26-5774-0)

Jon

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Mon May 13 23:00:45 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 22:00:45 -0600
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <b2c49ffc-508c-4e5c-7fd7-29e99bb5e5c8@sydex.com>
References: <DAC1FA2B90F34C15B68E51FCF8C93925@CharlesDellLap>
 <af2649ae-572f-e135-f0b1-f610439fa34d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <dba18412-ded0-20bf-c7e8-f32c5d4fa1ca@sydex.com>
 <8e71d65b-9eaa-1a74-930e-85c260d45c44@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <b2c49ffc-508c-4e5c-7fd7-29e99bb5e5c8@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <df9d79ed-9148-916e-66a2-094fb613f0f7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 5/13/19 9:48 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> "RPG" today doesn't mean a computer language anymore.

In the circles that I travel in, Report Program Generator is quite common.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com  Mon May 13 23:04:07 2019
From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 05:04:07 +0100
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905131650540.18860@shell.lmi.net>
References: <DAC1FA2B90F34C15B68E51FCF8C93925@CharlesDellLap>
 <08b1377e-b9ad-e08a-d367-d48ea4d1b02a@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905131650540.18860@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CAHkUCCzh8nXY406uKK=n6pntb+HLfe25JBb_n2bgN6xz=5uXqw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 12:57 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 13 May 2019, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> > The last game that I recall playing with any frequency was Chess 3.0 on
> > a Cyber 74.   Other games over the years have held my interest for only
> > a couple of hours, tops.  For the last 30 years, I haven't even bothered
> > to look.
> >
> > Fred, how about you?
>
> Adventure in the 1970s, Lode Runner and Tetris in the 1980s
>
>
> I do sudokus ( www.websudoku.com/?level-4 )
>
>
> Allison, how about you?
> Al, how about you?
> ARD, how about you?

I do the Sudoku and crossword puzzle in the newspaper most
days.

The last computer game I played was one of the Infocom
text adventures (I forget which one) about 25 years ago.

> Geneb has a flight simulator, . . .

On the other hand I do not object to buyng something because
the _intended_ use is of no interest to me. Those who know me,
for example, will know I have little interest in physical exercise. But
I bought a mat intended for such activities because it was a suitable
material for lininng a carrying case for a piece of photographic
equipment.

I would happily buy something sold for computer gaming if I could
find a use for it.

-tony

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Mon May 13 23:10:29 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 22:10:29 -0600
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <CAHkUCCzh8nXY406uKK=n6pntb+HLfe25JBb_n2bgN6xz=5uXqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DAC1FA2B90F34C15B68E51FCF8C93925@CharlesDellLap>
 <08b1377e-b9ad-e08a-d367-d48ea4d1b02a@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905131650540.18860@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAHkUCCzh8nXY406uKK=n6pntb+HLfe25JBb_n2bgN6xz=5uXqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <964b5ebf-7da4-b58f-811d-5f9d7fe13eb5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 5/13/19 10:04 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
> On the other hand I do not object to buyng something because the 
> _intended_ use is of no interest to me.

I hoist my drink to you.

If you have a use for it, great.  If not, then pass.  Oh, that's not the 
intended use?  Pft.

> Those who know me, for example, will know I have little interest in 
> physical exercise. But I bought a mat intended for such activities 
> because it was a suitable material for lininng a carrying case for 
> a piece of photographic equipment.

Sounds like a good use to me.

> I would happily buy something sold for computer gaming if I could 
> find a use for it.

;-)



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From cclist at sydex.com  Tue May 14 00:15:06 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 22:15:06 -0700
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <964b5ebf-7da4-b58f-811d-5f9d7fe13eb5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <DAC1FA2B90F34C15B68E51FCF8C93925@CharlesDellLap>
 <08b1377e-b9ad-e08a-d367-d48ea4d1b02a@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905131650540.18860@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAHkUCCzh8nXY406uKK=n6pntb+HLfe25JBb_n2bgN6xz=5uXqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <964b5ebf-7da4-b58f-811d-5f9d7fe13eb5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <48dc2b1a-8c77-ac1a-8690-00efc51030d1@sydex.com>

On 5/13/19 9:10 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> On 5/13/19 10:04 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:

>> Those who know me, for example, will know I have little interest in
>> physical exercise. But I bought a mat intended for such activities
>> because it was a suitable material for lininng a carrying case for a
>> piece of photographic equipment.

I use yoga mat material as a benchtop cover, photo background, and
something to cushion my old bones when I'm crouching into a piece of
gear on floor.  It's cheap--about $12 shipped for a mat from Amazon.

Never did, nor want to start doing yoga.

I just bought a batch of microscope slides and covers for a
non-microscope use.  I'll see if the idea works before elaborating further.

--Chuck

From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon May 13 16:40:54 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 14:40:54 -0700
Subject: RS2030 MIPS workstation
In-Reply-To: <FACE0BDC-29BF-4EC1-9B58-AD3C3948BD7B@gmail.com>
References: <FACE0BDC-29BF-4EC1-9B58-AD3C3948BD7B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <caacec8f-46d9-7b8f-37c8-3f01da4e9492@bitsavers.org>



On 5/4/19 10:29 AM, Dennis Grevenstein via cctech wrote:

> I have the same problem with a cloned MIPS machine, a Sumitomo
> Sumistation SP300. The biggest problem with my machine is that the
> NVRAM holds the ethernet address. If it goes flat, there seems to be
> no way to reprogram the NVRAM. If you find any solution for this,
> please tell me.

You might be able to take the fake nvram data from the simulation in MAME

I'm about to try that this week since I got in the NVRAM and video cable.


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue May 14 00:48:14 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 22:48:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <48dc2b1a-8c77-ac1a-8690-00efc51030d1@sydex.com>
References: <DAC1FA2B90F34C15B68E51FCF8C93925@CharlesDellLap>
 <08b1377e-b9ad-e08a-d367-d48ea4d1b02a@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905131650540.18860@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAHkUCCzh8nXY406uKK=n6pntb+HLfe25JBb_n2bgN6xz=5uXqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <964b5ebf-7da4-b58f-811d-5f9d7fe13eb5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <48dc2b1a-8c77-ac1a-8690-00efc51030d1@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905132241110.20705@shell.lmi.net>

> Those who know me, for example, will know I have little interest in
> physical exercise. But I bought a mat intended for such activities
> because it was a suitable material for lininng a carrying case for a
> piece of photographic equipment.

A deceased friend lined some airtight camera cases with foam that 
deteriorated and destroyed expensive equipment (including Leica 200mm 
visoflex lens).

Be careful.

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue May 14 01:01:03 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 23:01:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905132241110.20705@shell.lmi.net>
References: <DAC1FA2B90F34C15B68E51FCF8C93925@CharlesDellLap>
 <08b1377e-b9ad-e08a-d367-d48ea4d1b02a@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905131650540.18860@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAHkUCCzh8nXY406uKK=n6pntb+HLfe25JBb_n2bgN6xz=5uXqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <964b5ebf-7da4-b58f-811d-5f9d7fe13eb5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <48dc2b1a-8c77-ac1a-8690-00efc51030d1@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905132241110.20705@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905132252580.20705@shell.lmi.net>


>> Those who know me, for example, will know I have little interest in
>> physical exercise. But I bought a mat intended for such activities
>> because it was a suitable material for lininng a carrying case for a
>> piece of photographic equipment.
>
On Mon, 13 May 2019, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> A deceased friend lined some airtight camera cases with foam that 
> deteriorated and destroyed expensive equipment (including Leica 200mm 
> visoflex lens).
> Be careful.

CORRECTION: the most expensive item destroyed was a Leica 180mm 
Tele-Elmarit f2.8 lens.  It had been mint condition before he put it in 
the case.   Not much damage to the glass, but it destroyed and pitted the 
finish of the rest of the lens, removing all collector value.



From lars at nocrew.org  Tue May 14 02:00:25 2019
From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 07:00:25 +0000
Subject: KCC on TOPS-20 linking question
In-Reply-To: <CAP2nic3aLxNW4Ve3zsRTC_ev+0NDW4SaiD=HAVPiRW2qS9F7Kw@mail.gmail.com>
 (Adam Thornton via cctech's message of "Mon, 13 May 2019 13:48:30
 -0700")
References: <CAP2nic3aLxNW4Ve3zsRTC_ev+0NDW4SaiD=HAVPiRW2qS9F7Kw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7w7eatjzau.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

Adam Thornton wrote:
> So the first question is: where's the KCC configuration stored, so we
> can add the right library path [...] ?

If no one here knows, maybe someone on alt.sys.pdp10 does.

From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Tue May 14 03:02:18 2019
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 10:02:18 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <af2649ae-572f-e135-f0b1-f610439fa34d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <DAC1FA2B90F34C15B68E51FCF8C93925@CharlesDellLap>
 <af2649ae-572f-e135-f0b1-f610439fa34d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905140958080.11611@linuxserv.home>

On Mon, 13 May 2019, Grant Taylor wrote:
> "Gaming adapters" take a wired computer and connect it to a wireless network.

That "adapter" has always been called a WLAN or wireless bridge.

Christian

From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Tue May 14 04:26:10 2019
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 10:26:10 +0100
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <4c5552f2-f9da-6f12-5606-5036f5a35fc0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <4F49BB9C660F44B8B67371D3BAB651AA@CharlesDellLap>
 <eed947dc-6739-4a73-109c-19ccc3ff94b6@sydex.com>
 <8a3b04c5-32c9-b86b-7051-429be6d680e8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <00e08bd8-4de5-254d-c765-f4938f04701e@sydex.com>
 <FF21A99C-71ED-40FB-84AB-72F7895898B1@tnetconsulting.net>
 <7074db9a-ccb9-12f0-239c-a70f19624a76@sydex.com>
 <4c5552f2-f9da-6f12-5606-5036f5a35fc0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <b30160f4-7772-098d-10af-1d90b1900deb@dunnington.plus.com>

On 13/05/2019 23:47, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> On 5/13/19 3:58 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>> I don't want to get into a long discussion; I merely wanted to point 
>> out that you're unlikely to find the term "gaming adapter" in Linux 
>> tech docs as they're not written for that audience. 
> 
> You /might/ not find the term in a Linux tech doc.? But I'd be somewhat 
> surprised if you didn't.

Hmm.  I've been a network manager for over 20 years, supporting tens of 
thousands of staff and students at a university where there's a lot of 
gaming activity and I've never heard the term gaming adapter before.

The term could mean many things...

 > The first eight hits on a google search for "gaming adapter" are
 > directly relevant.

The first few hits I get refer to a USB device to connect to a console 
to give it WiFi capability.  That's not what Charles described, and what 
you referred to, which is a network bridge.

-- 
Pete
Pete Turnbull

From jfoust at threedee.com  Tue May 14 08:17:42 2019
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 08:17:42 -0500
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905140958080.11611@linuxserv.home>
References: <DAC1FA2B90F34C15B68E51FCF8C93925@CharlesDellLap>
 <af2649ae-572f-e135-f0b1-f610439fa34d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905140958080.11611@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <20190514131756.4550927459@mx1.ezwind.net>

At 03:02 AM 5/14/2019, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:
>On Mon, 13 May 2019, Grant Taylor wrote:
>>"Gaming adapters" take a wired computer and connect it to a wireless network.
>
>That "adapter" has always been called a WLAN or wireless bridge.

I've known the term "gaming adapter" because I knew it was the common
name for what I'd call a dedicated wireless network bridge.  Just another
fine example of how gaming has come to dominate parts of the computer world.
They who sell the most get to name the thing.

Once you start playing with a few, you'll learn whether they are easy
or difficult to administer (usually via a web interface at a fixed IP), 
whether you can truly rely on them, and the quirks of whatever method 
they use to act like a no-cat network cable.

Are they truly layer 2 in every sense?  Maybe not.  Are they duping
MAC addresses in weird ways?  Maybe.  Many were designed and tested to
work with yesterday's gaming consoles, not necessarily all the subtle 
nature of full-stack networking you might want to throw at it.

And yes, you can change the mode of other off-the-shelf consumer 
firewall/router/WiFi AP devices to act like bridges.

Another option (that doesn't require any configuration) is the AC powerline
adapter, which will deliver a layer 2 connection across the power in
your walls.

I missed the start of this discussion...  exactly why did you want to
rely on a wireless connection and couldn't string a network cable?

- John


From chrise at pobox.com  Tue May 14 09:19:16 2019
From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist)
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 09:19:16 -0500
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <48dc2b1a-8c77-ac1a-8690-00efc51030d1@sydex.com>
References: <DAC1FA2B90F34C15B68E51FCF8C93925@CharlesDellLap>
 <08b1377e-b9ad-e08a-d367-d48ea4d1b02a@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905131650540.18860@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAHkUCCzh8nXY406uKK=n6pntb+HLfe25JBb_n2bgN6xz=5uXqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <964b5ebf-7da4-b58f-811d-5f9d7fe13eb5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <48dc2b1a-8c77-ac1a-8690-00efc51030d1@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20190514141916.GA10552@n0jcf.net>

On Monday (05/13/2019 at 10:15PM -0700), Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> On 5/13/19 9:10 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> > On 5/13/19 10:04 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
> 
> >> Those who know me, for example, will know I have little interest in
> >> physical exercise. But I bought a mat intended for such activities
> >> because it was a suitable material for lininng a carrying case for a
> >> piece of photographic equipment.
> 
> I use yoga mat material as a benchtop cover, photo background, and
> something to cushion my old bones when I'm crouching into a piece of
> gear on floor.  It's cheap--about $12 shipped for a mat from Amazon.
> 
> Never did, nor want to start doing yoga.

But now you are going to be bombarded with ads for yoga pants...

-- 
Chris Elmquist

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue May 14 09:39:02 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 10:39:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
Message-ID: <20190514143902.5E2B518C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: John Foust

    > I missed the start of this discussion... exactly why did you want to
    > rely on a wireless connection and couldn't string a network cable?

The list archive:

  http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/

is your friend. (That's actually how I read it, so my emailbox won't
get buried in sludge.)

	Noel

From cclist at sydex.com  Tue May 14 09:54:50 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 07:54:50 -0700
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <20190514141916.GA10552@n0jcf.net>
References: <DAC1FA2B90F34C15B68E51FCF8C93925@CharlesDellLap>
 <08b1377e-b9ad-e08a-d367-d48ea4d1b02a@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905131650540.18860@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAHkUCCzh8nXY406uKK=n6pntb+HLfe25JBb_n2bgN6xz=5uXqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <964b5ebf-7da4-b58f-811d-5f9d7fe13eb5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <48dc2b1a-8c77-ac1a-8690-00efc51030d1@sydex.com>
 <20190514141916.GA10552@n0jcf.net>
Message-ID: <9d6256c4-960b-94ef-a9e5-73244efe22c5@sydex.com>

On 5/14/19 7:19 AM, Chris Elmquist wrote:

> But now you are going to be bombarded with ads for yoga pants...

Sure, picture me in yoga pants--and before lunch yet.  Have you no
respect for utter revulsion?

--Chuck


From cclist at sydex.com  Tue May 14 10:02:59 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 08:02:59 -0700
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <20190514143902.5E2B518C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190514143902.5E2B518C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <6b798fa0-20f1-d5c4-2223-8805bcb2045b@sydex.com>

One other problem I have with the term "gaming adapter" is the overuse
by the marketeers of the term "gaming".   So we have gaming systems,
keyboards, monitors, mice, chairs and probably coffee cups.  The
original meaning of "to game" is "manipulate (a situation), typically in
a way that is unfair or unscrupulous."   Perhaps the term when used by
marketers, is apt.

Reminds me of the overuse of "turbo".

--Chuck

From wrcooke at wrcooke.net  Tue May 14 10:06:39 2019
From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net)
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 10:06:39 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <6b798fa0-20f1-d5c4-2223-8805bcb2045b@sydex.com>
References: <20190514143902.5E2B518C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <6b798fa0-20f1-d5c4-2223-8805bcb2045b@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <1489748877.134806.1557846399926@email.ionos.com>


> On May 14, 2019 at 10:02 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> One other problem I have with the term "gaming adapter" is the overuse
> by the marketeers of the term "gaming". So we have gaming systems,
> keyboards, monitors, mice, chairs and probably coffee cups. The
> original meaning of "to game" is "manipulate (a situation), typically in
> a way that is unfair or unscrupulous." Perhaps the term when used by
> marketers, is apt.
> 
> Reminds me of the overuse of "turbo".
> 
> --Chuck

I just had to find out:
https://www.amazon.com/Gamer-Coffee-Mug-gift/dp/B06Y3Y74QS

From ethan at 757.org  Tue May 14 09:25:40 2019
From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole)
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 10:25:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RS2030 MIPS workstation
In-Reply-To: <caacec8f-46d9-7b8f-37c8-3f01da4e9492@bitsavers.org>
References: <FACE0BDC-29BF-4EC1-9B58-AD3C3948BD7B@gmail.com>
 <caacec8f-46d9-7b8f-37c8-3f01da4e9492@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1905141025120.10932@users.757.org>

>> I have the same problem with a cloned MIPS machine, a Sumitomo
>> Sumistation SP300. The biggest problem with my machine is that the
>> NVRAM holds the ethernet address. If it goes flat, there seems to be
>> no way to reprogram the NVRAM. If you find any solution for this,
>> please tell me.

Is the NVRAM A ST Microelectronics TimeKeeper or Dallas module or 
something else?

--
: Ethan O'Toole



From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Tue May 14 10:21:51 2019
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 10:21:51 -0500
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <6b798fa0-20f1-d5c4-2223-8805bcb2045b@sydex.com>
References: <20190514143902.5E2B518C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <6b798fa0-20f1-d5c4-2223-8805bcb2045b@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimkvXzzRVxcpSvOwZ0DkV1=qXzFk-=pVpkDqGsf_F=Ndmg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 10:03 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> One other problem I have with the term "gaming adapter" is the overuse
> by the marketeers of the term "gaming".   So we have gaming systems,
> keyboards, monitors, mice, chairs and probably coffee cups.
>
> Reminds me of the overuse of "turbo".

How many buttons on a Turbo Gaming Coffee Mug?

-ethan

From mtapley at swri.edu  Tue May 14 10:28:32 2019
From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark)
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 15:28:32 +0000
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905131650540.18860@shell.lmi.net>
References: <DAC1FA2B90F34C15B68E51FCF8C93925@CharlesDellLap>
 <08b1377e-b9ad-e08a-d367-d48ea4d1b02a@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905131650540.18860@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <3761C6E1-2D35-4F49-A04F-EBB74042784A@swri.edu>

> On May 13, 2019, at 6:57 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 13 May 2019, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>> The last game that I recall playing with any frequency was Chess 3.0 on
>> a Cyber 74.   Other games over the years have held my interest for only
>> a couple of hours, tops.  For the last 30 years, I haven't even bothered
>> to look.
>> 
>> Fred, how about you?
> 
> Adventure in the 1970s, Lode Runner and Tetris in the 1980s
> 
> 
> I do sudokus ( www.websudoku.com/?level-4 )
> 
> 
> Allison, how about you?
> Al, how about you?
> ARD, how about you?
> Geneb has a flight simulator, . . .

By and large, my opinion is that gaming is a waste of a life (and some cool hardware), but, in addition to Gene?s flight simulator, I have to hold up one more counter-example: Civilization IV. Emmy-winning theme music by Christopher Tin; narration by Leonard Nimoy. 
						- Mark

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Tue May 14 10:41:29 2019
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 08:41:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <3761C6E1-2D35-4F49-A04F-EBB74042784A@swri.edu>
References: <DAC1FA2B90F34C15B68E51FCF8C93925@CharlesDellLap>
 <08b1377e-b9ad-e08a-d367-d48ea4d1b02a@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905131650540.18860@shell.lmi.net>
 <3761C6E1-2D35-4F49-A04F-EBB74042784A@swri.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1905140840400.31634@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>

On Tue, 14 May 2019, Tapley, Mark via cctalk wrote:

>> Allison, how about you?
>> Al, how about you?
>> ARD, how about you?
>> Geneb has a flight simulator, . . .
>
s/has a/has four..ish/

:)

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Tue May 14 10:43:16 2019
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 16:43:16 +0100
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <6b798fa0-20f1-d5c4-2223-8805bcb2045b@sydex.com>
References: <20190514143902.5E2B518C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <6b798fa0-20f1-d5c4-2223-8805bcb2045b@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <0b7b01d50a6b$c081d410$41857c30$@gmail.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis via
> cctalk
> Sent: 14 May 2019 16:03
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Network cards and Win98SE
> 
> One other problem I have with the term "gaming adapter" is the overuse
> by the marketeers of the term "gaming".   So we have gaming systems,
> keyboards, monitors, mice, chairs and probably coffee cups.  The original
> meaning of "to game" is "manipulate (a situation), typically in
> a way that is unfair or unscrupulous."   Perhaps the term when used by
> marketers, is apt.
> 

To me roughly translated, "Gaming" means we have made it 1% faster and doubled the price.
Most of the documents refer to this as Access Point Client Mode or Wireless Client Mode. Its been around for a long time.
Many Access Points will work in client mode I first used it for gaming, well for my sons gaming with a cheap TP link box for his playstation
I still have one for my TV box which only has a wired connection


> Reminds me of the overuse of "turbo".
> 
> --Chuck

Dave


From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Tue May 14 10:32:25 2019
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 16:32:25 +0100
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <20190514131756.4550927459@mx1.ezwind.net>
References: <DAC1FA2B90F34C15B68E51FCF8C93925@CharlesDellLap>
 <af2649ae-572f-e135-f0b1-f610439fa34d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905140958080.11611@linuxserv.home>
 <20190514131756.4550927459@mx1.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <abcf73e6-c5d0-e25a-24b5-df9461acc013@dunnington.plus.com>

On 14/05/2019 14:17, John Foust via cctalk wrote:
> At 03:02 AM 5/14/2019, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:
>> On Mon, 13 May 2019, Grant Taylor wrote:
>>> "Gaming adapters" take a wired computer and connect it to a wireless network.
>>
>> That "adapter" has always been called a WLAN or wireless bridge.
> 
> I've known the term "gaming adapter" because I knew it was the common
> name for what I'd call a dedicated wireless network bridge.  Just another
> fine example of how gaming has come to dominate parts of the computer world.
> They who sell the most get to name the thing.

But they probably don't.  Almost every smart TV and settop box 
manufacturer sells a wired-to-wireless bridge dongle, and I'd bet there 
are more "wireless adapters" or "network adapters" sold for that purpose 
rather than gaming, simply because TVs, settop boxes and DVD/BluRay 
players outsell gaming machines.  And then there are the slightly more 
sophisticated/robust ones sold by the likes of 3Com and Cisco, which 
I've never seen called anything other than a "wireless bridge".

There are two or three groups at my university who regularly organise 
gaming parties, or sometimes called "LAN parties" here, and plenty of 
ad-hoc groups who also do so since the word got round that IT Services 
was willing to provide some support for them.  I've never heard the term 
"gaming adapter" from them.  Perhaps it's a piece of localised jargon. 
The AV Services department, who use quite a lot of them for large TV 
screens in lecture theatres, for remote lectures, teleconferencing, as 
bulletin boards, etc always call them "wireless adapters" or sometimes 
"network adapters".

When "gaming adapter" was first mentioned, one of the first things that 
came to mind was the joystick-shaped gadget that fits over a keyboard to 
press the up/down/left/right keys when you waggle it.  Searching "gaming 
adapter" throws up a lot of USB wireless dongles before wired Ethernet 
ones.  I don't really care what you or Grant call it yourself, but at 
best the term is confusing, given it can mean at least two other things, 
and it's certainly not any sort of canonical name as has been suggested.

-- 
Pete
Pete Turnbull

From lproven at gmail.com  Tue May 14 11:34:47 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 18:34:47 +0200
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <ada02512-2597-6f92-5685-2c7c9a8b9f4e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <2095DF9B35304DBA83C3D35D2F2BA850@CharlesDellLap>
 <ada02512-2597-6f92-5685-2c7c9a8b9f4e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFfdfS9DetoiS-yvjSK-F36VvA91hHWvMaJ5pHeyV3nbA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 14 May 2019 at 00:39, Grant Taylor via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> So you turned your laptop into a gaming adapter.

31 years in the tech industry, some 5-6 years as a hobbyist before
that, working in 4 countries in international teams in multiple
sectors from retail to the enterprise.

I have _never_ heard that term and have no idea what it means.

Don't be so glib. It looks bad on anyone.

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From lproven at gmail.com  Tue May 14 11:36:58 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 18:36:58 +0200
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <5fbefc84-3256-456e-2740-b306c03c56fb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <4F49BB9C660F44B8B67371D3BAB651AA@CharlesDellLap>
 <eed947dc-6739-4a73-109c-19ccc3ff94b6@sydex.com>
 <8a3b04c5-32c9-b86b-7051-429be6d680e8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <00e08bd8-4de5-254d-c765-f4938f04701e@sydex.com>
 <FF21A99C-71ED-40FB-84AB-72F7895898B1@tnetconsulting.net>
 <7074db9a-ccb9-12f0-239c-a70f19624a76@sydex.com>
 <4c5552f2-f9da-6f12-5606-5036f5a35fc0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAALmimn0i91z-9S5wGwbJpBSZYkaSCSQX4n2wGuKaqsQwoY3ng@mail.gmail.com>
 <5fbefc84-3256-456e-2740-b306c03c56fb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEdt09mwapjtVbzNgDu04cQBr6By7Pwq-4zymr7yRfPag@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 14 May 2019 at 04:54, Grant Taylor via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Maybe it's a regional term.  I've heard other people use it in multiple
> states here in the U.S.A.

Hi, welcome to ClassicCmp. This is an international list with members
in dozens of countries and dozens of native languages.

You are _not_ winning any friends here. In fact the reverse is true.

> But you did look it up, and I'm guessing you now have an idea where it
> could be used, even for things other than gaming consoles.

No, not really. Some kind of toy attachment. Not really relevant to
the discussion, AFAICS.

Please stop digging that hole you're in.

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From alaricnicoll at icloud.com  Tue May 14 12:17:55 2019
From: alaricnicoll at icloud.com (Alaric Nicoll)
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 18:17:55 +0100
Subject: HP 1000 E-series peripherals wanted 
Message-ID: <23BD49C7-9151-4C93-A9A3-273430305074@icloud.com>



Hi
I was wondering if there were any people who were wanting to sell any HP 1000 computer peripherals. Preferably disk oriented Such as a disk controller or a 79xx drive 

(I live in the UK so shipping may be an issue for larger things) 




From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Tue May 14 12:47:04 2019
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 11:47:04 -0600
Subject: HP 1000 E-series peripherals wanted
In-Reply-To: <23BD49C7-9151-4C93-A9A3-273430305074@icloud.com>
References: <23BD49C7-9151-4C93-A9A3-273430305074@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <311ebcb2-093d-4cb9-b175-10d01c1e7d51@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 5/14/2019 11:17 AM, Alaric Nicoll via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi
> I was wondering if there were any people who were wanting to sell any HP 1000 computer peripherals. Preferably disk oriented Such as a disk controller or a 79xx drive
> 
> (I live in the UK so shipping may be an issue for larger things)
I suspect shipping will be the cheaper thing. Proper packing will be the 
more expensive thing. Remember at one time you got printed manual to 
unpack your computer or device, and the process needs to be done in
reverse.


From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Tue May 14 13:02:34 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 12:02:34 -0600
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCEdt09mwapjtVbzNgDu04cQBr6By7Pwq-4zymr7yRfPag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4F49BB9C660F44B8B67371D3BAB651AA@CharlesDellLap>
 <eed947dc-6739-4a73-109c-19ccc3ff94b6@sydex.com>
 <8a3b04c5-32c9-b86b-7051-429be6d680e8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <00e08bd8-4de5-254d-c765-f4938f04701e@sydex.com>
 <FF21A99C-71ED-40FB-84AB-72F7895898B1@tnetconsulting.net>
 <7074db9a-ccb9-12f0-239c-a70f19624a76@sydex.com>
 <4c5552f2-f9da-6f12-5606-5036f5a35fc0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAALmimn0i91z-9S5wGwbJpBSZYkaSCSQX4n2wGuKaqsQwoY3ng@mail.gmail.com>
 <5fbefc84-3256-456e-2740-b306c03c56fb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAMTenCEdt09mwapjtVbzNgDu04cQBr6By7Pwq-4zymr7yRfPag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d7e46ca3-a90b-513c-8dd8-178588bb6306@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 5/14/19 10:36 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
> Some kind of toy attachment. Not really relevant to the discussion, 
> AFAICS.

The OP wanted a way to get a computer on the network, preferably 
wireless, or wired.

The type of device I suggested very early did exactly what the OP 
wanted.  Said device took a wired connection and bridged it to the 
wireless network.  That seems very relevant to me.

I suspect the conversation would have gone differently if I didn't call 
the device a "gaming adapter" and instead called it a "client ap" / 
"network bridge" / "wired to wireless converter" or just about anything 
else that didn't have the word "game" in it.

I called it a "gaming adapter" ? while saying "broadly" to allow room 
for interpretation / difference of opinion / etc ? because that's what 
I've frequently heard them called in man different areas in the U.S. 
I'm not saying that's the proper or best name.  I am saying that's what 
I and many people in the circles that I travel know them as.  Or at 
least know that multiple different devices can function as a "gaming 
adapter".

I was taken aback at some of the responses that I perceived as "I don't 
have anything to do with gaming and anything related gaming can't 
possibly solve my problem or fulfill my need".  This is particularly 
surprising because I'm used to the cctalk community being open minded 
and realizing that the exact same thing, or different things that do the 
same function can go by many different names / descriptions.  Further, I 
think many in the cctalk community are likely known among their friends 
for taking something and using it for something completely tangential to 
it's original purpose.

I am thankful that it seems like there's been nothing more than ruffled 
feathers.  I'm grateful that we have all been adults and not restored to 
name calling or mud slinging.

I have found this conversation to be eye opening in a number of 
different ways.  I knew, but have seen confirmation in the thread, that 
different people know things as different names, and describe things 
based on what they know.  More power to them.  I've also expanded my 
working definitions of things.

I still maintain that the device that connects a device with a wired 
Ethernet connection to a Wireless network is relevant to the discussion. 
  I and many people I talk to classify that device as a "gaming adapter."



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From jfoust at threedee.com  Tue May 14 13:12:47 2019
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 13:12:47 -0500
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCEdt09mwapjtVbzNgDu04cQBr6By7Pwq-4zymr7yRfPag@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <4F49BB9C660F44B8B67371D3BAB651AA@CharlesDellLap>
 <eed947dc-6739-4a73-109c-19ccc3ff94b6@sydex.com>
 <8a3b04c5-32c9-b86b-7051-429be6d680e8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <00e08bd8-4de5-254d-c765-f4938f04701e@sydex.com>
 <FF21A99C-71ED-40FB-84AB-72F7895898B1@tnetconsulting.net>
 <7074db9a-ccb9-12f0-239c-a70f19624a76@sydex.com>
 <4c5552f2-f9da-6f12-5606-5036f5a35fc0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAALmimn0i91z-9S5wGwbJpBSZYkaSCSQX4n2wGuKaqsQwoY3ng@mail.gmail.com>
 <5fbefc84-3256-456e-2740-b306c03c56fb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAMTenCEdt09mwapjtVbzNgDu04cQBr6By7Pwq-4zymr7yRfPag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190514181330.9182A274C0@mx1.ezwind.net>

At 11:36 AM 5/14/2019, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
>> But you did look it up, and I'm guessing you now have an idea where it
>> could be used, even for things other than gaming consoles.
>No, not really. Some kind of toy attachment. Not really relevant to
>the discussion, AFAICS.

We should start a campaign to get all those companies who
make products that don't exist!

<https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_game_adapter>https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_game_adapter 

https://www.google.com/search?q=wireless+"gaming+adapter" 

<https://www.linksys.com/us/support-product?pid=01t80000003KMvaAAG>https://www.linksys.com/us/support-product?pid=01t80000003KMvaAAG 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/653104-REG/Trendnet_TEW_647GA_Wireless_N_Gaming_Adapter.html 

<https://www.cnet.com/products/usrobotics-wireless-gaming-adapter-ethernet-bridge-usr5430-bridge-802-11b-g-desktop/>https://www.cnet.com/products/usrobotics-wireless-gaming-adapter-ethernet-bridge-usr5430-bridge-802-11b-g-desktop/ 

https://superuser.com/questions/663980/what-are-the-differences-between-wireless-gaming-adapters-and-straight-wireless 

- John


From lproven at gmail.com  Tue May 14 13:16:29 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 20:16:29 +0200
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <d7e46ca3-a90b-513c-8dd8-178588bb6306@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <4F49BB9C660F44B8B67371D3BAB651AA@CharlesDellLap>
 <eed947dc-6739-4a73-109c-19ccc3ff94b6@sydex.com>
 <8a3b04c5-32c9-b86b-7051-429be6d680e8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <00e08bd8-4de5-254d-c765-f4938f04701e@sydex.com>
 <FF21A99C-71ED-40FB-84AB-72F7895898B1@tnetconsulting.net>
 <7074db9a-ccb9-12f0-239c-a70f19624a76@sydex.com>
 <4c5552f2-f9da-6f12-5606-5036f5a35fc0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAALmimn0i91z-9S5wGwbJpBSZYkaSCSQX4n2wGuKaqsQwoY3ng@mail.gmail.com>
 <5fbefc84-3256-456e-2740-b306c03c56fb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAMTenCEdt09mwapjtVbzNgDu04cQBr6By7Pwq-4zymr7yRfPag@mail.gmail.com>
 <d7e46ca3-a90b-513c-8dd8-178588bb6306@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFvwrXF0HxYeGS1zvEH+TRz53=KSn+g1R0sfmE-KDGebA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 14 May 2019 at 20:02, Grant Taylor via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> The OP wanted a way to get a computer on the network, preferably
> wireless, or wired.

No, not really. The OP was trying to get wifi working on Win98. That's
not the same thing.

You jumped to a conclusion.

Then, you declared, rudely,  the OP that they should buy something, by
repeatedly, derisively, using a name that might be meaningful to
millennial gamers, but is _not_ to a bunch of old-timer high-level
techies.

Also, your idea meant going out and spending money on something new,
when this is a community of people who you could reasonably expect to
favour the approach of doing something difficult but functional with
existing tech that they already own.

You told someone who is trying to do something on a 20-25 year old OS
in order that they can connect to a 40 year old OS, that they should
be buying a peripheral for a games console.

> The type of device I suggested

[1] You did not "suggest". You hectored, rudely.

> very early did exactly what the OP
> wanted.

[2] You did not _explain_ that. You just repeated some buzzword phrase
nobody else here knows.

> Said device took a wired connection and bridged it to the
> wireless network.  That seems very relevant to me.

[3] You didn't explain that, either.

> I suspect the conversation would have gone differently if I didn't call
> the device a "gaming adapter" and instead called it a "client ap" /
> "network bridge" / "wired to wireless converter" or just about anything
> else that didn't have the word "game" in it.

You mean if you addressed the OP and the rest of us as competent
adults instead of poking fun?

Shock horror, yeah, that might have worked better.

> I called it a "gaming adapter" ? while saying "broadly" to allow room
> for interpretation / difference of opinion / etc ? because that's what
> I've frequently heard them called in man different areas in the U.S.

WE ARE NOT ALL AMERICAN.

> I'm not saying that's the proper or best name.

Yeah you were.

> I was taken aback at some of the responses that I perceived as "I don't
> have anything to do with gaming and anything related gaming can't
> possibly solve my problem or fulfill my need".  This is particularly
> surprising because I'm used to the cctalk community being open minded

They are, until someone comes along and starts implying they are
stupid, which is what you did.

> I have found this conversation to be eye opening in a number of
> different ways.  I knew, but have seen confirmation in the thread, that
> different people know things as different names, and describe things
> based on what they know.  More power to them.  I've also expanded my
> working definitions of things.

Good. Have you worked out _why_ people were upset with you? Have you
worked out what you did and how not to do it again? Have you decided
to change?

Look, *I* am someone who has, justly, been told off for being rude and
dismissive here. I very much fear that I have caused people to quit
the list, and I bitterly regret that.

But I have tried hard to *learn* from that, and I do not want to do it again.

Whereas you seem to feel that you were in the right all along and
we've overreacted.

I think you should reconsider and try to use this as a learning experience.

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Tue May 14 13:58:54 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 12:58:54 -0600
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFvwrXF0HxYeGS1zvEH+TRz53=KSn+g1R0sfmE-KDGebA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4F49BB9C660F44B8B67371D3BAB651AA@CharlesDellLap>
 <eed947dc-6739-4a73-109c-19ccc3ff94b6@sydex.com>
 <8a3b04c5-32c9-b86b-7051-429be6d680e8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <00e08bd8-4de5-254d-c765-f4938f04701e@sydex.com>
 <FF21A99C-71ED-40FB-84AB-72F7895898B1@tnetconsulting.net>
 <7074db9a-ccb9-12f0-239c-a70f19624a76@sydex.com>
 <4c5552f2-f9da-6f12-5606-5036f5a35fc0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAALmimn0i91z-9S5wGwbJpBSZYkaSCSQX4n2wGuKaqsQwoY3ng@mail.gmail.com>
 <5fbefc84-3256-456e-2740-b306c03c56fb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAMTenCEdt09mwapjtVbzNgDu04cQBr6By7Pwq-4zymr7yRfPag@mail.gmail.com>
 <d7e46ca3-a90b-513c-8dd8-178588bb6306@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAMTenCFvwrXF0HxYeGS1zvEH+TRz53=KSn+g1R0sfmE-KDGebA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <37c4c98f-bd11-6b7b-cce7-5371ce09a856@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 5/14/19 12:16 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
> No, not really. The OP was trying to get wifi working on Win98. That's 
> not the same thing.

The letter of what the OP wanted was WiFi.  I took the spirit of what 
the OP wanted was network.

> You jumped to a conclusion.

No I did not.

I responded to comment where someone else said "you may want to consider 
? using a cheap wifi-equipped micro as a network bridge".

I stated "IMHO the OPZ would be functioning as what I think are commonly 
called 'gaming adapters'.  It functions as the wireless client to 
connect the wired Ethernet client."  The key points being:

  - "IMHO" meaning in my humble opinion
  - "functioning as" meaning doing the same / similar thing as
  - "what I /think/" as in what I believe but could be wrong about
  - "commonly called" as in not always
  - "it functions as a wireless client to connect the wired Ethernet 
client." as in it's a way to connect a wired only device to a wireless 
network.

> Then, you declared, rudely,  the OP that they should buy something,

How does "OPZ would be functioning as" translate to the OP should buy 
something?

> by repeatedly, derisively, using a name that might be meaningful to 
> millennial gamers, 

Many of the people in my community are decidedly outside of the 
millennial gamers group and know what a gaming adapter is.

I have no idea what age range people on this mailing list are?I honestly 
don't care?but I strongly suspect that more people now know what a 
gaming adapter is than did so before the start of this thread.

> but is _not_ to a bunch of old-timer high-level techies.

Please don't conflate age with level of techies.

I've worked with all four combinations of the binary young / old vs 
techie / non-techie.

> Also, your idea meant going out and spending money on something new,

No, it did not.

> when this is a community of people who you could reasonably expect to 
> favour the approach of doing something difficult but functional with 
> existing tech that they already own.

That's one of the reasons that I enjoy this community.  I re-use things 
for different purposes all the time.  I enjoy seeing how others solve 
their problems.

> You told someone who is trying to do something on a 20-25 year old OS 
> in order that they can connect to a 40 year old OS, that they should be 
> buying a peripheral for a games console.

No I did not.

> [1] You did not "suggest". You hectored, rudely.

I disagree.

I was not intend to be rude.  I apologize to anyone that thought I was rude.

> [2] You did not _explain_ that. You just repeated some buzzword phrase 
> nobody else here knows.

I disagree.

My original comment stated "It functions as the wireless client to 
connect the wired Ethernet client."

> [3] You didn't explain that, either.

See above.

> You mean if you addressed the OP and the rest of us as competent adults 
> instead of poking fun?

I continue to believe that I have addressed everyone in this thread as 
competent adults.

I did not intentionally try to poke fun at anyone.

Believe me, when I say that I'm much more of an ass hole if I want to be 
and try to poke at someone.

> Shock horror, yeah, that might have worked better.
> 
> WE ARE NOT ALL AMERICAN.

What does American have to do with this?

Are you implying that American ~> U.S. English dialect is different than 
other English dialects around the world and that those differences were 
part of a breakdown in communications?

> Yeah you were.

No, I was not.  See the bullet points above.

> They are, until someone comes along and starts implying they are stupid, 
> which is what you did.

How did I imply that anyone is stupid?

I apologize if I did so.  That was certainly not my intent.

> Good. Have you worked out _why_ people were upset with you?

No.

> Have you worked out what you did and how not to do it again?

No.

The only thing that I wish I had done differently was not used the 
phrase "gaming adapter".  I see no problems with anything else that I've 
done.

> Have you decided to change?

Not yet.

I'm still open to feedback & critique.

> Look, *I* am someone who has, justly, been told off for being rude and 
> dismissive here. I very much fear that I have caused people to quit the 
> list, and I bitterly regret that.

I think some of your comments have been curt.  But I don't consider 
"curt" to be "rude".

> But I have tried hard to *learn* from that, and I do not want to do 
> it again.

Good for you.

> Whereas you seem to feel that you were in the right all along and we've 
> overreacted.

I'm not saying I am in the right.  I am saying that I don't think I'm in 
the wrong.

To me, there is a relatively neutral state in the middle, which is where 
I think I am.

> I think you should reconsider and try to use this as a learning 
> experience.

I try to learn from things that I experience daily.  I think most people 
do too.

There is a reason that I'm trying to defuse what I am currently chalking 
up to miscommunication based on a number of misunderstandings on 
multiple people's part.  I'm trying to turn this into a constructive 
conversation to learn from and avoid this type of issue in the future.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From wrcooke at wrcooke.net  Tue May 14 14:04:07 2019
From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net)
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 14:04:07 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Network cards and Win98SE
In-Reply-To: <37c4c98f-bd11-6b7b-cce7-5371ce09a856@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <4F49BB9C660F44B8B67371D3BAB651AA@CharlesDellLap>
 <eed947dc-6739-4a73-109c-19ccc3ff94b6@sydex.com>
 <8a3b04c5-32c9-b86b-7051-429be6d680e8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <00e08bd8-4de5-254d-c765-f4938f04701e@sydex.com>
 <FF21A99C-71ED-40FB-84AB-72F7895898B1@tnetconsulting.net>
 <7074db9a-ccb9-12f0-239c-a70f19624a76@sydex.com>
 <4c5552f2-f9da-6f12-5606-5036f5a35fc0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAALmimn0i91z-9S5wGwbJpBSZYkaSCSQX4n2wGuKaqsQwoY3ng@mail.gmail.com>
 <5fbefc84-3256-456e-2740-b306c03c56fb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAMTenCEdt09mwapjtVbzNgDu04cQBr6By7Pwq-4zymr7yRfPag@mail.gmail.com>
 <d7e46ca3-a90b-513c-8dd8-178588bb6306@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAMTenCFvwrXF0HxYeGS1zvEH+TRz53=KSn+g1R0sfmE-KDGebA@mail.gmail.com>
 <37c4c98f-bd11-6b7b-cce7-5371ce09a856@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <1074555784.146282.1557860647511@email.ionos.com>

Perhaps this discussion would be a good candidate for private email?


> On May 14, 2019 at 1:58 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> On 5/14/19 12:16 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
> > No, not really. The OP was trying to get wifi working on Win98. That's 
> > not the same thing.
> 
> The letter of what the OP wanted was WiFi. I took the spirit of what 
> the OP wanted was network.
> > You jumped to a conclusion.
> 
> No I did not.
> 
> I responded to comment where someone else said "you may want to consider 
> ? using a cheap wifi-equipped micro as a network bridge".
> 
> I stated "IMHO the OPZ would be functioning as what I think are commonly 
> called 'gaming adapters'. It functions as the wireless client to 
> connect the wired Ethernet client." The key points being:
>  - "IMHO" meaning in my humble opinion - "functioning as" meaning doing the same / similar thing as - "what I /think/" as in what I believe but could be wrong about - "commonly called" as in not always - "it functions as a wireless client to connect the wired Ethernet 
> client." as in it's a way to connect a wired only device to a wireless 
> network.
> > Then, you declared, rudely, the OP that they should buy something,
> 
> How does "OPZ would be functioning as" translate to the OP should buy 
> something?
> > by repeatedly, derisively, using a name that might be meaningful to 
> > millennial gamers,
> 
> Many of the people in my community are decidedly outside of the 
> millennial gamers group and know what a gaming adapter is.
> 
> I have no idea what age range people on this mailing list are?I honestly 
> don't care?but I strongly suspect that more people now know what a 
> gaming adapter is than did so before the start of this thread.
> > but is _not_ to a bunch of old-timer high-level techies.
> 
> Please don't conflate age with level of techies.
> 
> I've worked with all four combinations of the binary young / old vs 
> techie / non-techie.
> > Also, your idea meant going out and spending money on something new,
> 
> No, it did not.
> > when this is a community of people who you could reasonably expect to 
> > favour the approach of doing something difficult but functional with 
> > existing tech that they already own.
> 
> That's one of the reasons that I enjoy this community. I re-use things 
> for different purposes all the time. I enjoy seeing how others solve 
> their problems.
> > You told someone who is trying to do something on a 20-25 year old OS 
> > in order that they can connect to a 40 year old OS, that they should be 
> > buying a peripheral for a games console.
> 
> No I did not.
> > [1] You did not "suggest". You hectored, rudely.
> 
> I disagree.
> 
> I was not intend to be rude. I apologize to anyone that thought I was rude.
> > [2] You did not _explain_ that. You just repeated some buzzword phrase 
> > nobody else here knows.
> 
> I disagree.
> 
> My original comment stated "It functions as the wireless client to 
> connect the wired Ethernet client."
> > [3] You didn't explain that, either.
> 
> See above.
> > You mean if you addressed the OP and the rest of us as competent adults 
> > instead of poking fun?
> 
> I continue to believe that I have addressed everyone in this thread as 
> competent adults.
> 
> I did not intentionally try to poke fun at anyone.
> 
> Believe me, when I say that I'm much more of an ass hole if I want to be 
> and try to poke at someone.
> > Shock horror, yeah, that might have worked better.
> > 
> > WE ARE NOT ALL AMERICAN.
> 
> What does American have to do with this?
> 
> Are you implying that American ~> U.S. English dialect is different than 
> other English dialects around the world and that those differences were 
> part of a breakdown in communications?
> > Yeah you were.
> 
> No, I was not. See the bullet points above.
> > They are, until someone comes along and starts implying they are stupid, 
> > which is what you did.
> 
> How did I imply that anyone is stupid?
> 
> I apologize if I did so. That was certainly not my intent.
> > Good. Have you worked out _why_ people were upset with you?
> 
> No.
> > Have you worked out what you did and how not to do it again?
> 
> No.
> 
> The only thing that I wish I had done differently was not used the 
> phrase "gaming adapter". I see no problems with anything else that I've 
> done.
> > Have you decided to change?
> 
> Not yet.
> 
> I'm still open to feedback & critique.
> > Look, *I* am someone who has, justly, been told off for being rude and 
> > dismissive here. I very much fear that I have caused people to quit the 
> > list, and I bitterly regret that.
> 
> I think some of your comments have been curt. But I don't consider 
> "curt" to be "rude".
> > But I have tried hard to *learn* from that, and I do not want to do 
> > it again.
> 
> Good for you.
> > Whereas you seem to feel that you were in the right all along and we've 
> > overreacted.
> 
> I'm not saying I am in the right. I am saying that I don't think I'm in 
> the wrong.
> 
> To me, there is a relatively neutral state in the middle, which is where 
> I think I am.
> > I think you should reconsider and try to use this as a learning 
> > experience.
> 
> I try to learn from things that I experience daily. I think most people 
> do too.
> 
> There is a reason that I'm trying to defuse what I am currently chalking 
> up to miscommunication based on a number of misunderstandings on 
> multiple people's part. I'm trying to turn this into a constructive 
> conversation to learn from and avoid this type of issue in the future.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die


"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." --? Antoine de Saint-Exupery


"The names of global variables should start with? ? // "? --?https://isocpp.org

From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue May 14 10:38:45 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 08:38:45 -0700
Subject: RS2030 MIPS workstation
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1905141025120.10932@users.757.org>
References: <FACE0BDC-29BF-4EC1-9B58-AD3C3948BD7B@gmail.com>
 <caacec8f-46d9-7b8f-37c8-3f01da4e9492@bitsavers.org>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1905141025120.10932@users.757.org>
Message-ID: <f77a5cdb-447c-a44b-e09e-8b9129c74ce5@bitsavers.org>



On 5/14/19 7:25 AM, Ethan O'Toole wrote:

> Is the NVRAM A ST Microelectronics TimeKeeper or Dallas module or something else?

It is a DS1287
The issue is finding out what the contents should be, since it isn't
documented in the surviving manuals.

Some of this was figured out in getting the 2030 to run in MAME and there
is a guess at the correct contents as a rom image there.

If you have the original timekeeper part, the unique part of the
machine's ethernet address is written on a label on top of the part.


From ethan at 757.org  Tue May 14 10:55:57 2019
From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole)
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 11:55:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RS2030 MIPS workstation
In-Reply-To: <f77a5cdb-447c-a44b-e09e-8b9129c74ce5@bitsavers.org>
References: <FACE0BDC-29BF-4EC1-9B58-AD3C3948BD7B@gmail.com>
 <caacec8f-46d9-7b8f-37c8-3f01da4e9492@bitsavers.org>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1905141025120.10932@users.757.org>
 <f77a5cdb-447c-a44b-e09e-8b9129c74ce5@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1905141154540.10932@users.757.org>

> It is a DS1287
> The issue is finding out what the contents should be, since it isn't
> documented in the surviving manuals.

If the MAC address is the only concern, you could fuzz it. Write a pattern 
into the chip then if the systems prom monitor or BIOS shows the MAC 
locate it. It's probably at the beginning of the chip :-)


--
: Ethan O'Toole



From useddec at gmail.com  Tue May 14 22:57:41 2019
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 22:57:41 -0500
Subject: PDP8-A parts
Message-ID: <CACwhfuMkoH7bdJQGVmr_nmj3CCUueLxnBg+Grr8ZkFhZ7HLA-w@mail.gmail.com>

While digging for a KY11-LB for a fellow list member, I came across a few
operators  panels and programmer panels for 8-As. Sorry, I don't remember
the part numbers. I have extra M8315s, M8316s M8316s, and a bunch of other
8-A boards. Please contact me off list if you have any interest.

Thanks, Paul

From tingox at gmail.com  Wed May 15 03:54:10 2019
From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 10:54:10 +0200
Subject: RS2030 MIPS workstation
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1905141154540.10932@users.757.org>
References: <FACE0BDC-29BF-4EC1-9B58-AD3C3948BD7B@gmail.com>
 <caacec8f-46d9-7b8f-37c8-3f01da4e9492@bitsavers.org>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1905141025120.10932@users.757.org>
 <f77a5cdb-447c-a44b-e09e-8b9129c74ce5@bitsavers.org>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1905141154540.10932@users.757.org>
Message-ID: <CAJ_iqtbzmXuWv_AvHWxLCcRRwrP0DcTZe8QthNkQKmcOX64aHg@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting with those MIPS workstations.
Does the firmware (PROM) have any interesting commands?
Like 'pr_tod', 'init_tod', 'init' and so on?
found a PROM monitor reference in http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/mips/

On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 10:50 PM Ethan O'Toole via cctech
<cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > It is a DS1287
> > The issue is finding out what the contents should be, since it isn't
> > documented in the surviving manuals.
>
> If the MAC address is the only concern, you could fuzz it. Write a pattern
> into the chip then if the systems prom monitor or BIOS shows the MAC
> locate it. It's probably at the beginning of the chip :-)
>
>
> --
> : Ethan O'Toole
>
>


-- 
mvh
Torfinn

From sales at elecplus.com  Wed May 15 13:21:36 2019
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 13:21:36 -0500
Subject: What is this?
Message-ID: <034e01d50b4b$0905de90$1b119bb0$@com>

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/486774619186135050/578282338375565322
/JPEG_20190515_130651.jpg

Can anyone identify/explain this to me? The same company made joysticks and
other peripherals for pre-PC systems.

 

Cindy Croxton

Electronics Plus

1613 Water Street

Kerrville, TX 78028

830-370-3239 cell

sales at elecplus.com

 



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

From sales at elecplus.com  Wed May 15 13:22:58 2019
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 13:22:58 -0500
Subject: Dallas trip
Message-ID: <035301d50b4b$39b40710$ad1c1530$@com>

Due to severe weather, the trip did not happen last week, and will not
happen this week. Tornadoes and floods are not fun, and much of the drive is
on very low roads. I will see if next week looks clear enough.

 

Cindy Croxton

Electronics Plus

1613 Water Street

Kerrville, TX 78028

830-370-3239 cell

sales at elecplus.com

 



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

From turing at shaw.ca  Wed May 15 13:27:02 2019
From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 12:27:02 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: What is this?
In-Reply-To: <034e01d50b4b$0905de90$1b119bb0$@com>
References: <034e01d50b4b$0905de90$1b119bb0$@com>
Message-ID: <168168547.66163707.1557944822206.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca>

Hi Cindy: 
It looks like a gang programmer. 

From: "cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> 
To: "cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2019 11:21:36 AM 
Subject: What is this? 

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/486774619186135050/578282338375565322 
/JPEG_20190515_130651.jpg 

Can anyone identify/explain this to me? The same company made joysticks and 
other peripherals for pre-PC systems. 



Cindy Croxton 

Electronics Plus 

1613 Water Street 

Kerrville, TX 78028 

830-370-3239 cell 

sales at elecplus.com 





--- 
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. 
https://www.avast.com/antivirus 

From wrcooke at wrcooke.net  Wed May 15 13:32:51 2019
From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 13:32:51 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: What is this?
In-Reply-To: <034e01d50b4b$0905de90$1b119bb0$@com>
References: <034e01d50b4b$0905de90$1b119bb0$@com>
Message-ID: <866884569.181814.1557945171840@email.ionos.com>


> On May 15, 2019 at 1:21 PM Electronics Plus via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/486774619186135050/578282338375565322
> /JPEG_20190515_130651.jpg
> 
> Can anyone identify/explain this to me? The same company made joysticks and
> other peripherals for pre-PC systems.
> 
> 
Maybe a multi-joystick adapter for Apple ][ ?

From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net  Wed May 15 13:32:55 2019
From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 14:32:55 -0400
Subject: What is this?
In-Reply-To: <034e01d50b4b$0905de90$1b119bb0$@com>
References: <034e01d50b4b$0905de90$1b119bb0$@com>
Message-ID: <077601d50b4c$9d465570$d7d30050$@verizon.net>

I believe that that is a joystick interface for an Apple ][.  I think it
allows you to attach both joysticks and knob style controllers and switch
between them "on the fly".

Bill S.

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Electronics
Plus via cctalk
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2019 2:22 PM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
Subject: What is this?

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/486774619186135050/578282338375565322
/JPEG_20190515_130651.jpg

Can anyone identify/explain this to me? The same company made joysticks and
other peripherals for pre-PC systems.

 

Cindy Croxton

Electronics Plus

1613 Water Street

Kerrville, TX 78028

830-370-3239 cell

sales at elecplus.com

 



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Wed May 15 13:34:13 2019
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 11:34:13 -0700
Subject: What is this?
In-Reply-To: <034e01d50b4b$0905de90$1b119bb0$@com>
References: <034e01d50b4b$0905de90$1b119bb0$@com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOw+e3jr1MGaRLVprGKp+bJOBb2XVqbP-Hio07supk8jhOw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 11:21 AM Electronics Plus via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/486774619186135050/578282338375565322
> /JPEG_20190515_130651.jpg
>
> Can anyone identify/explain this to me? The same company made joysticks and
> other peripherals for pre-PC systems.

TG Products Select-A-Port Apple II joystick port switch box.

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Wed May 15 13:35:08 2019
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 14:35:08 -0400
Subject: What is this?
In-Reply-To: <077601d50b4c$9d465570$d7d30050$@verizon.net>
References: <034e01d50b4b$0905de90$1b119bb0$@com>
 <077601d50b4c$9d465570$d7d30050$@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <CABGJBucWCX=yK4uKt5Vv711WrwVtfdxWU3J8C3KO_ZH2893MJg@mail.gmail.com>

agreed.  matches the joystick socket in the Apple II motherboard.

On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 2:33 PM William Sudbrink via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I believe that that is a joystick interface for an Apple ][.  I think it
> allows you to attach both joysticks and knob style controllers and switch
> between them "on the fly".
>
> Bill S.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of
> Electronics
> Plus via cctalk
> Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2019 2:22 PM
> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
> Subject: What is this?
>
>
> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/486774619186135050/578282338375565322
> /JPEG_20190515_130651.jpg
> <https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/486774619186135050/578282338375565322/JPEG_20190515_130651.jpg>
>
> Can anyone identify/explain this to me? The same company made joysticks and
> other peripherals for pre-PC systems.
>
>
>
> Cindy Croxton
>
> Electronics Plus
>
> 1613 Water Street
>
> Kerrville, TX 78028
>
> 830-370-3239 cell
>
> sales at elecplus.com
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>

From wrcooke at wrcooke.net  Wed May 15 13:37:24 2019
From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 13:37:24 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: What is this?
In-Reply-To: <034e01d50b4b$0905de90$1b119bb0$@com>
References: <034e01d50b4b$0905de90$1b119bb0$@com>
Message-ID: <1213316682.182058.1557945444313@email.ionos.com>


> On May 15, 2019 at 1:21 PM Electronics Plus via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/486774619186135050/578282338375565322
> /JPEG_20190515_130651.jpg
> 
> Can anyone identify/explain this to me? The same company made joysticks and
> other peripherals for pre-PC systems.
> 
>  
https://picclick.com/TG-Products-Select-A-Port-Multiple-Game-Port-Device-252787161706.html

From jfoust at threedee.com  Wed May 15 13:30:35 2019
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 13:30:35 -0500
Subject: What is this?
In-Reply-To: <034e01d50b4b$0905de90$1b119bb0$@com>
References: <034e01d50b4b$0905de90$1b119bb0$@com>
Message-ID: <20190515184035.BAB5A4E6E0@mx2.ezwind.net>

At 01:21 PM 5/15/2019, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote:
>https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/486774619186135050/578282338375565322
>/JPEG_20190515_130651.jpg
>
>Can anyone identify/explain this to me? The same company made joysticks and
>other peripherals for pre-PC systems.

It lets you choose between different ROMs?

- John



From sales at elecplus.com  Wed May 15 14:14:31 2019
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 14:14:31 -0500
Subject: What is this?
In-Reply-To: <1213316682.182058.1557945444313@email.ionos.com>
References: <034e01d50b4b$0905de90$1b119bb0$@com>
 <1213316682.182058.1557945444313@email.ionos.com>
Message-ID: <039d01d50b52$6d07f700$4717e500$@com>



-----Original Message-----
From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net [mailto:wrcooke at wrcooke.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2019 1:37 PM
To: Electronics Plus; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: What is this?


> On May 15, 2019 at 1:21 PM Electronics Plus via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/486774619186135050/578282338375565322
> /JPEG_20190515_130651.jpg
> 
> Can anyone identify/explain this to me? The same company made joysticks and
> other peripherals for pre-PC systems.
> 
>  
https://picclick.com/TG-Products-Select-A-Port-Multiple-Game-Port-Device-252787161706.html

Thank you!

Cindy


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


From sales at elecplus.com  Wed May 15 14:17:30 2019
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 14:17:30 -0500
Subject: Mac 1K
Message-ID: <039e01d50b52$d804ba70$880e2f50$@com>

I recently obtained a Mac 1K in a Mac 512K box. It does not power on, and it
smells a bit toasty. Does it require a keyboard to power on? I have a
M0110A.

 

Cindy Croxton

Electronics Plus

1613 Water Street

Kerrville, TX 78028

830-370-3239 cell

sales at elecplus.com

 



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

From sales at elecplus.com  Wed May 15 14:31:23 2019
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 14:31:23 -0500
Subject: Mac 1K
In-Reply-To: <039e01d50b52$d804ba70$880e2f50$@com>
References: <039e01d50b52$d804ba70$880e2f50$@com>
Message-ID: <03b801d50b54$c8b37460$5a1a5d20$@com>

Make that Mac Plus 1MB. Sorry for typo!
Cindy

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Electronics
Plus via cctalk
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2019 2:18 PM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
Subject: Mac 1K

I recently obtained a Mac 1K in a Mac 512K box. It does not power on, and it
smells a bit toasty. Does it require a keyboard to power on? I have a
M0110A.

 

Cindy Croxton

Electronics Plus

1613 Water Street

Kerrville, TX 78028

830-370-3239 cell

sales at elecplus.com

 



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


From turing at shaw.ca  Wed May 15 14:32:48 2019
From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 13:32:48 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Mac 1K
In-Reply-To: <03b801d50b54$c8b37460$5a1a5d20$@com>
References: <039e01d50b52$d804ba70$880e2f50$@com>
 <03b801d50b54$c8b37460$5a1a5d20$@com>
Message-ID: <1626675751.66530505.1557948768101.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca>

I would think that a Mac 1K would have serious performance issues... 


From: "cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> 
To: "Electronics Plus" <sales at elecplus.com>, "cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2019 12:31:23 PM 
Subject: RE: Mac 1K 

Make that Mac Plus 1MB. Sorry for typo! 
Cindy 

-----Original Message----- 
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Electronics 
Plus via cctalk 
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2019 2:18 PM 
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' 
Subject: Mac 1K 

I recently obtained a Mac 1K in a Mac 512K box. It does not power on, and it 
smells a bit toasty. Does it require a keyboard to power on? I have a 
M0110A. 



Cindy Croxton 

Electronics Plus 

1613 Water Street 

Kerrville, TX 78028 

830-370-3239 cell 

sales at elecplus.com 





--- 
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. 
https://www.avast.com/antivirus 

From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com  Wed May 15 14:34:37 2019
From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 16:34:37 -0300
Subject: Mac 1K
In-Reply-To: <1626675751.66530505.1557948768101.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca>
References: <039e01d50b52$d804ba70$880e2f50$@com>
 <03b801d50b54$c8b37460$5a1a5d20$@com>
 <1626675751.66530505.1557948768101.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <CANdZFKQYXWx_kEkkgyxxnFL8yMrHfjjguNaY14FQMKdNXLdKcA@mail.gmail.com>

No Cindy, it should turn on and go bong without the keyboard...

---8<---Corte aqui---8<---
http://www.tabajara-labs.blogspot.com
http://www.tabalabs.com.br
---8<---Corte aqui---8<---


Em qua, 15 de mai de 2019 ?s 16:32, Norman Jaffe via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> escreveu:

> I would think that a Mac 1K would have serious performance issues...
>
>
> From: "cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> To: "Electronics Plus" <sales at elecplus.com>, "cctalk" <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2019 12:31:23 PM
> Subject: RE: Mac 1K
>
> Make that Mac Plus 1MB. Sorry for typo!
> Cindy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of
> Electronics
> Plus via cctalk
> Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2019 2:18 PM
> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
> Subject: Mac 1K
>
> I recently obtained a Mac 1K in a Mac 512K box. It does not power on, and
> it
> smells a bit toasty. Does it require a keyboard to power on? I have a
> M0110A.
>
>
>
> Cindy Croxton
>
> Electronics Plus
>
> 1613 Water Street
>
> Kerrville, TX 78028
>
> 830-370-3239 cell
>
> sales at elecplus.com
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>

From pat at vax11.net  Wed May 15 14:45:05 2019
From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 15:45:05 -0400
Subject: TeleVideo TS-1603
Message-ID: <CAADZ-4P2H1-MDoLd7UMJgTv8J_ZXdKH7=fdSbE7z=5aPgpkr3Q@mail.gmail.com>

I finally acquired an elusive TS-1603, and have scanned the manuals that I
got with it if anyone is interested:

Advertising glossies for various TeleVideo software/hardware:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=12ld7EbXgytvX7u9hIVgGKgjbl6o86pc8

TeleVideo Supermouse user's manual:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1YLdb1Gh5pK3KP2Dz_VPEXWDZnVlywPKG

TeleVideo TS-1603 user's manual:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1puxc77jYEq0L91dhT4obUxRRv-lOXp5B

TeleVideo TS-1603 & TS-1603H:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1TO1CNwVoonR-0rVkkS0j27MvitRjEIyI

I also got a pile of floppies including diags, applications, OS, and some
TeleVideo source code, which I'm still sorting through:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1jrmPfGxrlSHGdaEXuiEAd8GKosgUcXL7

I'm still looking for an 806 and 800/800A/800R.

Pat

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Wed May 15 14:58:36 2019
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 12:58:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: What is this?
In-Reply-To: <034e01d50b4b$0905de90$1b119bb0$@com>
References: <034e01d50b4b$0905de90$1b119bb0$@com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1905151258040.14077@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>

On Wed, 15 May 2019, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote:

> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/486774619186135050/578282338375565322
> /JPEG_20190515_130651.jpg
>
> Can anyone identify/explain this to me? The same company made joysticks and
> other peripherals for pre-PC systems.
>
I'm going to take a wild guess and posit that it's a switching device for 
multiple Apple II joysticks.

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed May 15 15:07:04 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 13:07:04 -0700
Subject: DG One owners? I think I have something.
Message-ID: <53ec4b80-ea49-ea24-5114-dced52c3e912@sydex.com>

A kindly donor sent me an external numeric keypad from Data General.  It
has the right keycaps and color for a DG One laptop.   Model number
2568.   Connection is via a 3-terminal plug; basically a miniature
stereo headphone plug.

I'll give this up to a One collector who can identify this for certain.
Otherwise, I'll probably repurpose it.   FWIW, it appears to be
unsued--not even the rubber feet have dirt or wear.

--Chuck

From mtapley at swri.edu  Wed May 15 15:14:39 2019
From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 20:14:39 +0000
Subject: Mac 1K
In-Reply-To: <CANdZFKQYXWx_kEkkgyxxnFL8yMrHfjjguNaY14FQMKdNXLdKcA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <039e01d50b52$d804ba70$880e2f50$@com>
 <03b801d50b54$c8b37460$5a1a5d20$@com>
 <1626675751.66530505.1557948768101.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca>
 <CANdZFKQYXWx_kEkkgyxxnFL8yMrHfjjguNaY14FQMKdNXLdKcA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200EA089-A088-4FB9-8B1E-09364B906780@swri.edu>

> On May 15, 2019, at 2:34 PM, Alexandre Souza via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> No Cindy, it should turn on and go bong without the keyboard...
> 
> ---8<---Corte aqui---8<---
> http://www.tabajara-labs.blogspot.com
> http://www.tabalabs.com.br
> ---8<---Corte aqui---8<---
> 
> 
> Em qua, 15 de mai de 2019 ?s 16:32, Norman Jaffe via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> escreveu:
> 
>> I would think that a Mac 1K would have serious performance issues...
>> 
>> 
>> From: "cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>> To: "Electronics Plus" <sales at elecplus.com>, "cctalk" <
>> cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2019 12:31:23 PM
>> Subject: RE: Mac 1K
>> 
>> Make that Mac Plus 1MB. Sorry for typo!
>> Cindy
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of
>> Electronics
>> Plus via cctalk
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2019 2:18 PM
>> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
>> Subject: Mac 1K
>> 
>> I recently obtained a Mac 1K in a Mac 512K box. It does not power on, and
>> it
>> smells a bit toasty. Does it require a keyboard to power on? I have a
>> M0110A.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Cindy Croxton
>> 
>> Electronics Plus
>> 
>> 1613 Water Street
>> 
>> Kerrville, TX 78028
>> 
>> 830-370-3239 cell
>> 
>> sales at elecplus.com

Agreed, a (somewhat absent-minded) friend of mine operated his for 15 minutes or so one time, moving files around with his mouse, before realizing he had not brought his keyboard from his car. 

There is a battery compartment in the back next to the power switch, so it might be worth prying out the battery to see whether that makes a difference, but by and large I would expect if it?s not making any noise nor showing any light on the screen when powered with no mouse or kb attached, there is a power supply problem. 

					- Mark
					210-522-6025 office         210-379-4635    cell





From spc at conman.org  Wed May 15 17:30:23 2019
From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 18:30:23 -0400
Subject: DG One owners? I think I have something.
In-Reply-To: <53ec4b80-ea49-ea24-5114-dced52c3e912@sydex.com>
References: <53ec4b80-ea49-ea24-5114-dced52c3e912@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20190515223023.GC7533@brevard.conman.org>

It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis via cctalk once stated:
> A kindly donor sent me an external numeric keypad from Data General.  It
> has the right keycaps and color for a DG One laptop.   Model number
> 2568.   Connection is via a 3-terminal plug; basically a miniature
> stereo headphone plug.
> 
> I'll give this up to a One collector who can identify this for certain.
> Otherwise, I'll probably repurpose it.   FWIW, it appears to be
> unsued--not even the rubber feet have dirt or wear.

  Ooh!  I'll have to check my DG One to see if there's a port on the laptop
for it.  I have the  laptop, printer and external floppy, this would be a
nice addition to it.

  -sp


From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Wed May 15 18:25:17 2019
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 18:25:17 -0500
Subject: "industrial" PDP-11
Message-ID: <95e1e419-e0bc-8785-4bb4-534d88077a9d@gmail.com>


Hey all,

I bumped into someone who has some early (mid 1970 on some of the photos 
I've seen) PDP-11 bits - front panel and a handful of boards (the 
backplane, PSU, rack, peripherals etc. are long gone). The front panel's 
branded as "Industrial 11" though, which isn't something I've seen or heard 
of before.

Address bus is 16 bits wide, and aside from the branding, the style appears 
to be the same as an 11/05 or 11/10. Were there any differences to the 
system internally though, or in the standard set of boards fitted, or was 
the "industrial" aspect purely a marketing exercise?

cheers

Jules

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Wed May 15 18:52:15 2019
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 19:52:15 -0400
Subject: "industrial" PDP-11
In-Reply-To: <95e1e419-e0bc-8785-4bb4-534d88077a9d@gmail.com>
References: <95e1e419-e0bc-8785-4bb4-534d88077a9d@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44F7CC45-2838-4C6E-9730-D6ED887A2EC4@comcast.net>



> On May 15, 2019, at 7:25 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> Hey all,
> 
> I bumped into someone who has some early (mid 1970 on some of the photos I've seen) PDP-11 bits - front panel and a handful of boards (the backplane, PSU, rack, peripherals etc. are long gone). The front panel's branded as "Industrial 11" though, which isn't something I've seen or heard of before.
> 
> Address bus is 16 bits wide, and aside from the branding, the style appears to be the same as an 11/05 or 11/10. Were there any differences to the system internally though, or in the standard set of boards fitted, or was the "industrial" aspect purely a marketing exercise?

There was a "Rugged 11", a PDP11/20 variant with actual packaging changes, for example sturdier switches on the console panel.  I've only seen photos of that one.

The "Industrial" thing you mentioned sounds more like a "product line" variant.  DEC had a lot of groups focused on particular business categories, which it called "product lines".  That meant a marketing and sales focus on those businesses, but might also include specialized software products, hardware bundles, or the like.

For example, the newspaper product line created Typeset-11 software, the VT20, 61t, and 71 terminals, custom interfaces to phototypesetters, and software/hardware/support bundled packages for turnkey systems to sell to newspapers.  The telephone product group created Assist-11 directory assistance database software, and later was the original vehicle for DEC to deliver Unix to customers who wanted it.  Educational products group created PDP-11 systems with software bundles and a different paint job (light/dark blue rather than red/maroon).

I have a plastic ruler made as a marketing tchotchke by the industrial products group.  They may well have done more substantive stuff, like industrial control interfaces or product bundles focused on those customers.

	paul


From aek at bitsavers.org  Wed May 15 19:40:17 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 17:40:17 -0700
Subject: "industrial" PDP-11
In-Reply-To: <95e1e419-e0bc-8785-4bb4-534d88077a9d@gmail.com>
References: <95e1e419-e0bc-8785-4bb4-534d88077a9d@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0aa9d708-c75f-9845-75c1-533568abc937@bitsavers.org>



On 5/15/19 4:25 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote:
> 
> was the "industrial"
> aspect purely a marketing exercise?

yup, just the red/blue coloring front panel is different



From billdegnan at gmail.com  Wed May 15 20:54:03 2019
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 21:54:03 -0400
Subject: "industrial" PDP-11
In-Reply-To: <0aa9d708-c75f-9845-75c1-533568abc937@bitsavers.org>
References: <95e1e419-e0bc-8785-4bb4-534d88077a9d@gmail.com>
 <0aa9d708-c75f-9845-75c1-533568abc937@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CABGJBuemy2o4ukOV5CFLqPLydhFMBj8fshOO9AXcYggFht2vJg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 8:49 PM Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

>
>
> On 5/15/19 4:25 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote:
> >
> > was the "industrial"
> > aspect purely a marketing exercise?
>
> yup, just the red/blue coloring front panel is different
>
>
>

I have one of these
http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/PDP11-40_industrial11/

It has a MASSBUS expansion chassis and a TU10.  I got it up and running,
added RL02's to it.  At some point I plan to switch out the RL02s for RK05s
because it's more a match for the time period.

Bill
Bill

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Wed May 15 20:57:35 2019
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 21:57:35 -0400
Subject: "industrial" PDP-11
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBuemy2o4ukOV5CFLqPLydhFMBj8fshOO9AXcYggFht2vJg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <95e1e419-e0bc-8785-4bb4-534d88077a9d@gmail.com>
 <0aa9d708-c75f-9845-75c1-533568abc937@bitsavers.org>
 <CABGJBuemy2o4ukOV5CFLqPLydhFMBj8fshOO9AXcYggFht2vJg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBueYisvyerNhn4KqscvDx0AO1JH_JsHbtTvuFy_DzA9Hxw@mail.gmail.com>

Here is a good pick of the front panel
http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/PDP11-40_industrial11/pre-cleaning/pre-cleaning_front-panel.jpg


On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 9:54 PM Bill Degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 8:49 PM Al Kossow via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 5/15/19 4:25 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote:
>> >
>> > was the "industrial"
>> > aspect purely a marketing exercise?
>>
>> yup, just the red/blue coloring front panel is different
>>
>>
>>
>
> I have one of these
> http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/PDP11-40_industrial11/
>
> It has a MASSBUS expansion chassis and a TU10.  I got it up and running,
> added RL02's to it.  At some point I plan to switch out the RL02s for RK05s
> because it's more a match for the time period.
>
> Bill
> Bill
>
>

From steven at malikoff.com  Wed May 15 21:29:29 2019
From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com)
Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 12:29:29 +1000
Subject: "industrial" PDP-11
In-Reply-To: <95e1e419-e0bc-8785-4bb4-534d88077a9d@gmail.com>
References: <95e1e419-e0bc-8785-4bb4-534d88077a9d@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <73840d35b8b6ea4544286bd9a3ea90df.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>

> Hey all,
>
> I bumped into someone who has some early (mid 1970 on some of the photos
> I've seen) PDP-11 bits - front panel and a handful of boards (the
> backplane, PSU, rack, peripherals etc. are long gone). The front panel's
> branded as "Industrial 11" though, which isn't something I've seen or heard
> of before.
>
> Address bus is 16 bits wide, and aside from the branding, the style appears
> to be the same as an 11/05 or 11/10. Were there any differences to the
> system internally though, or in the standard set of boards fitted, or was
> the "industrial" aspect purely a marketing exercise?
>
> cheers
>
> Jules

Here's the Industrial 11 version of the 11/05:
https://youtu.be/XV-7J5y1TQc?t=254

Steve


From useddec at gmail.com  Thu May 16 01:14:05 2019
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 01:14:05 -0500
Subject: "industrial" PDP-11
In-Reply-To: <95e1e419-e0bc-8785-4bb4-534d88077a9d@gmail.com>
References: <95e1e419-e0bc-8785-4bb4-534d88077a9d@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuPw9JNw0gNXsDObdJDsUSUwVmvqRkpBZnvWzKEqRCfwFw@mail.gmail.com>

The standard 8s and 11s pretty much became "Industrial" when they were
paired with the PDP-14 or PDP-16 industrial product lines.. I have several
Industrial 8s and 11s. Like Al said, that part was just a change to red and
blue, but it was tied to some very specialized equipment.

I would be interested in whatever bits and pieces are available.

Thanks, Paul

On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 6:25 PM Jules Richardson via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> Hey all,
>
> I bumped into someone who has some early (mid 1970 on some of the photos
> I've seen) PDP-11 bits - front panel and a handful of boards (the
> backplane, PSU, rack, peripherals etc. are long gone). The front panel's
> branded as "Industrial 11" though, which isn't something I've seen or
> heard
> of before.
>
> Address bus is 16 bits wide, and aside from the branding, the style
> appears
> to be the same as an 11/05 or 11/10. Were there any differences to the
> system internally though, or in the standard set of boards fitted, or was
> the "industrial" aspect purely a marketing exercise?
>
> cheers
>
> Jules
>

From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Thu May 16 06:23:03 2019
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 06:23:03 -0500
Subject: "industrial" PDP-11
In-Reply-To: <73840d35b8b6ea4544286bd9a3ea90df.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
References: <95e1e419-e0bc-8785-4bb4-534d88077a9d@gmail.com>
 <73840d35b8b6ea4544286bd9a3ea90df.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
Message-ID: <4cee1287-3074-fd38-2446-2c047ab057a3@gmail.com>

On 5/15/19 9:29 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote:
> Here's the Industrial 11 version of the 11/05:
> https://youtu.be/XV-7J5y1TQc?t=254

Thanks for finding that... yup, that appears to be the exact panel that he 
has (and /5 or /10, or in fact what the difference is between the two 
anyway, I'm not sure)

J.

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu May 16 06:53:17 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 07:53:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: "industrial" PDP-11
Message-ID: <20190516115317.CBF2018C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Jules Richardson

    > On 5/15/19 9:29 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote:

    >> Here's the Industrial 11 version of the 11/05

There's an Industrial 11 version of the -11/70, too:

  http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/consoles/1170IndustCenter.jpg

So the only one missing (of the early -11's) is the /45, but I wouldn't be
surprised if that existed too. I've no idea about the /20 (I don't think the
/20R counts), or the later machines without physical switch registers (/04,
/34, etc).

    > and /5 or /10, or in fact what the difference is between the two 
    > anyway, I'm not sure

The paint on the front console inlay (I'm not joking :-).

Other than the /15-/20 (which do have slight hardware differences), none of
the OEM/End-User pairs have hardware differences in the circuitry that I know
of (although the /35 was _usually_ supplied in a BA11-D 10-1/2" box, and the
/40 in the BA11-F 21" - and there are rare counter-examples to this rule).

	Noel

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu May 16 07:10:02 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 08:10:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: "industrial" PDP-11
Message-ID: <20190516121002.E77C218C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > although the /35 was _usually_ supplied in a BA11-D 10-1/2" box

Oh, that should be 'early units in the BA11-D; later ones used the BA11-K'.

	Noel

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Thu May 16 07:57:05 2019
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 08:57:05 -0400
Subject: "industrial" PDP-11
In-Reply-To: <4cee1287-3074-fd38-2446-2c047ab057a3@gmail.com>
References: <95e1e419-e0bc-8785-4bb4-534d88077a9d@gmail.com>
 <73840d35b8b6ea4544286bd9a3ea90df.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
 <4cee1287-3074-fd38-2446-2c047ab057a3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBueya+AbMa8nU04C_ieKkZHmfUu-jJnj9d5HZnUcePwV4A@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 7:23 AM Jules Richardson via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 5/15/19 9:29 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote:
> > Here's the Industrial 11 version of the 11/05:
> > https://youtu.be/XV-7J5y1TQc?t=254
>
> Thanks for finding that... yup, that appears to be the exact panel that he
> has (and /5 or /10, or in fact what the difference is between the two
> anyway, I'm not sure)
>
> J.
>

Cool I never noticed it was an industrial 11 10/05, but I have studied this
video in the past.
b

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu May 16 09:56:19 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 07:56:19 -0700
Subject: OT: Gaming Gear
Message-ID: <705d5501-2a5b-d0b9-da97-888808546576@sydex.com>

Okay, Newegg dropped a deal on a Seagate 25B "Gaming" SSHD.   Exactly
what does that mean?

--CHuck

From ethan at 757.org  Thu May 16 10:14:14 2019
From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole)
Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 11:14:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: OT: Gaming Gear
In-Reply-To: <705d5501-2a5b-d0b9-da97-888808546576@sydex.com>
References: <705d5501-2a5b-d0b9-da97-888808546576@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1905161113050.10932@users.757.org>

> Okay, Newegg dropped a deal on a Seagate 25B "Gaming" SSHD.   Exactly
> what does that mean?
> --CHuck

Unlike a network GamerGate, it provides storage with similar performance 
to the non-gamer model but hella-cool styling and looks. Glowing LEDs, if 
you are lucky.



--
: Ethan O'Toole



From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net  Thu May 16 10:16:21 2019
From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink)
Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 11:16:21 -0400
Subject: Gaming Gear
In-Reply-To: <705d5501-2a5b-d0b9-da97-888808546576@sydex.com>
References: <705d5501-2a5b-d0b9-da97-888808546576@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <084e01d50bfa$520d4ab0$f627e010$@verizon.net>

Don't trust it with anything important?

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis via cctalk
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2019 10:56 AM
To: CCtalk
Subject: OT: Gaming Gear

Okay, Newegg dropped a deal on a Seagate 25B "Gaming" SSHD.   Exactly
what does that mean?

--CHuck


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


From useddec at gmail.com  Thu May 16 10:23:25 2019
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 10:23:25 -0500
Subject: "industrial" PDP-11
In-Reply-To: <20190516121002.E77C218C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190516121002.E77C218C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuNON_3B+95U4g7TPNQqb+dLTJ6qLwWzH446gaf773dOEA@mail.gmail.com>

I'm pretty sure the 11/35 came in a F box too.

On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 7:10 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>     > although the /35 was _usually_ supplied in a BA11-D 10-1/2" box
>
> Oh, that should be 'early units in the BA11-D; later ones used the BA11-K'.
>
>         Noel
>

From shadoooo at gmail.com  Thu May 16 12:17:30 2019
From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo)
Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 19:17:30 +0200
Subject: DG One owners? I think I have something.
In-Reply-To: <CAM4zSsXg7bagx5nKPS5Tgu2NnrCKG1x63tJ9QQ+sktDZAKiBTw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM4zSsWuoOGDfcfNi8yCM4jVtUMefqFYGL-Pp9-pvLFbQ-8mfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsWPRA_T63UQ5eH=5chnMbTtmfG2cm-PM92tmrC2Ca7ssQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsUkqydHwBwX3whUo8jJ=hOE9Vog=KAwKZwQJ5o5um=abw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsWJHaMqLFJ9bDZb250OhKT=S77XgS-JVB4OC_GASe3fzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsV6ucZRfEV5+U12ge1Sp4aDk4g_qjwySNFOpxpjraiUdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsXg7bagx5nKPS5Tgu2NnrCKG1x63tJ9QQ+sktDZAKiBTw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM4zSsWnSyNK+mB22BxTd1akaexxPvOygXCJQ5AaQ0n_m=ibkA@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,
I have two DG One, they are however not identical.
One is the older version, the other is more recent and have a different
display.
I never heard of a keypad accessory, it would be a very nice piece indeed!
I should check for connectors on the back?

Thanks
Andrea

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu May 16 12:21:27 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 13:21:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: "industrial" PDP-11
Message-ID: <20190516172127.DD5EE18C0C7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Paul Anderson

    >> although the /35 was _usually_ supplied in a BA11-D 10-1/2" box

    > I'm pretty sure the 11/35 came in a F box too.

That would be why I said "usually"! :-)

	Noel

From lproven at gmail.com  Thu May 16 13:04:22 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 20:04:22 +0200
Subject: OT: Gaming Gear
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1905161113050.10932@users.757.org>
References: <705d5501-2a5b-d0b9-da97-888808546576@sydex.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1905161113050.10932@users.757.org>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGtw_=mS4StoJsn0uKvOqoPigMo-8=2d3eKvLq=qagRtw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 16 May 2019 at 17:14, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Unlike a network GamerGate, it provides storage with similar performance
> to the non-gamer model but hella-cool styling and looks. Glowing LEDs, if
> you are lucky.

Confirmed. Worked example:

https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/03/12/the-case-of-texas-vs.-kryolord

A bit of the story:

https://www.engadget.com/2008/03/13/district-attorney-on-trial-for-building-monster-gaming-rig-with/

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu May 16 13:39:40 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 16 May 2019 11:39:40 -0700
Subject: Plessey disk drawing sets
Message-ID: <85502cee-ebc0-d0bb-cd57-5730fd9f88bc@bitsavers.org>

did anyone happen to get any of these?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-1979-PLESSEY-PERIPHERAL-SYSTEMS-MAINTENANCE-DRAWING-PACKAGE-3-/264277600857

they are different from the first set that I got for him, forgot about the auction, tried
email and they say they are no longer available.


From mark at wickensonline.co.uk  Fri May 17 02:38:54 2019
From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (mark at wickensonline.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 08:38:54 +0100
Subject: Event Announcement: DEC Legacy is back on 9th-10th Nov 2019,
 Windermere UK
Message-ID: <008501d50c83$94d9abc0$be8d0340$@wickensonline.co.uk>

DEC Legacy 2019 is on!

The next DEC Legacy will take place Saturday 9th November 2019 - Sunday 10th
at the Marchesi Centre in Windermere, North West UK.

With a focus on Digital Equipment Corporation and their legacy of hardware,
software and ethos I'm also extending an open invitation to those who are
interested in SGI, HP, Sun, IBM and other high end hardware to come along
and share their passion with us. Several formal presentations will be mixed
with plenty of hands on time with hardware brought by enthusiasts.

Enthusiasts are encouraged to bring along hardware and software to exhibit.
The personal nature of the event brings a unique atmosphere within which
friendships are easily forged. Registration is now open.

Please visit http://wickensonline.co.uk/declegacy/ for more details.

Regards,
Mark Wickens, M0NOM




From billdegnan at gmail.com  Fri May 17 07:43:16 2019
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 08:43:16 -0400
Subject: Event Announcement: DEC Legacy is back on 9th-10th Nov 2019,
 Windermere UK
In-Reply-To: <008501d50c83$94d9abc0$be8d0340$@wickensonline.co.uk>
References: <008501d50c83$94d9abc0$be8d0340$@wickensonline.co.uk>
Message-ID: <CABGJBueJhonw++h56dCz+gLa9KCCamsVnsqn9fmBezFiu_PVOA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 3:39 AM mark--- via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> DEC Legacy 2019 is on!
>
> The next DEC Legacy will take place Saturday 9th November 2019 - Sunday
> 10th
> at the Marchesi Centre in Windermere, North West UK.
>
> <snip>
>
> Please visit http://wickensonline.co.uk/declegacy/ for more details.
>
> Mark
There was an event last year but the text of the home page refers to 2016's
event.
Bill

From pat at vax11.net  Fri May 17 13:28:43 2019
From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan)
Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 14:28:43 -0400
Subject: TeleVideo 1603 goodies
Message-ID: <CAADZ-4P7NC=KqxigxEKFuH64NMGbam75Zfdd8U=3kBqABXJdvg@mail.gmail.com>

I got some high resolution pictures posted of an early rev main board for
the system, plus the front/back of unpopulated memory expansion and
graphics boards for the system.  Maybe someone else out there could find a
use for that PCB artwork :)

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ILZ2UgwtfmoAtBMIYYIjaW4h5fKEPUYA

Pat

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Fri May 17 14:51:03 2019
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 13:51:03 -0600
Subject: "industrial" PDP-11
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuPw9JNw0gNXsDObdJDsUSUwVmvqRkpBZnvWzKEqRCfwFw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <95e1e419-e0bc-8785-4bb4-534d88077a9d@gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuPw9JNw0gNXsDObdJDsUSUwVmvqRkpBZnvWzKEqRCfwFw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a60befea-24c1-e4b5-36b8-bd2cae16f8e2@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 5/16/2019 12:14 AM, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote:
> The standard 8s and 11s pretty much became "Industrial" when they were
> paired with the PDP-14 or PDP-16 industrial product lines.. I have several
> Industrial 8s and 11s. Like Al said, that part was just a change to red and
> blue, but it was tied to some very specialized equipment.
Did the Industrial version get better testing and work in a non friendly
envorment?



From useddec at gmail.com  Fri May 17 18:41:05 2019
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 18:41:05 -0500
Subject: "industrial" PDP-11
In-Reply-To: <a60befea-24c1-e4b5-36b8-bd2cae16f8e2@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <95e1e419-e0bc-8785-4bb4-534d88077a9d@gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuPw9JNw0gNXsDObdJDsUSUwVmvqRkpBZnvWzKEqRCfwFw@mail.gmail.com>
 <a60befea-24c1-e4b5-36b8-bd2cae16f8e2@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuPSexMf+7TadgVeBMn3Qqws4AQPkVirOP7ZcBMbQnhMvg@mail.gmail.com>

I knew customers who were required to put their systems in environmental
cabs, which had special filters and AC. I don't think DEC ever made any.

They did make the RT100, RT340, etc. which were rugidized  versions or the
VTs.

On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 2:51 PM ben via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> On 5/16/2019 12:14 AM, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote:
> > The standard 8s and 11s pretty much became "Industrial" when they were
> > paired with the PDP-14 or PDP-16 industrial product lines.. I have
> several
> > Industrial 8s and 11s. Like Al said, that part was just a change to red
> and
> > blue, but it was tied to some very specialized equipment.
> Did the Industrial version get better testing and work in a non friendly
> envorment?
>
>
>

From athornton at gmail.com  Fri May 17 22:30:57 2019
From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton)
Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 20:30:57 -0700
Subject: Kaur Collection Inventory
Message-ID: <67885AFB-E20D-4879-BD4D-CFC13BBEB5FA@gmail.com>

Last Saturday I went out to the location where the collection mentioned by Kristina Kaur resides, to take photos, create an inventory to the best of my abilities, and help her solicit proposals for the various items.  

I?m going to lead off with one of my last sentences in this email: PLEASE DO NOT WRITE KRISTINA, OR ME, DIRECTLY WITH YOUR OFFERS.  Use the contact form in the Google Drive folder (see below) I?m pointing to and send your proposal to laura at rubinbernsteinlaw.com <mailto:laura at rubinbernsteinlaw.com> .  I have no power over the disposition of any of this?I am just the chronicler?and Kristina wants to route all proposals for acquiring these things through the family's lawyer.

The basic background is this: all of this stuff belongs to a man who has run a bulk-mailing business for many years, and who wrote a bunch of his own software for PDP-11 machines to do that bulk mailing.  He has continued to use the PDP-11s until, apparently, quite recently.

He also, unfortunately, has recently had a stroke, and although he is expected to recover, he is not going to be able to continue running the business, and particularly not from these machines.  So his daughter, Kristina, has decided to make the collection available to people who will do right by it (preferably in a public museum), rather than just send it to the scrapper, which is awfully nice of her.

I want to express my gratitude to Kristina for allowing me to go out there and root through the collection, and to Ruthann, who provided good company during the digging and invaluable service during the search.

There are three locations for all these items.  Computing equipment is either in a climate-controlled garage, and apparently has been running until quite recently, or it is in a warehouse, which I do not believe to be climate-controlled but is walled and roofed and kept dark, which are all good things in Tucson.  All the manuals were on a bookshelf in the home office, and were kept climate-controlled and relatively dust-free.  The manuals are in excellent shape considering their age, with no environmental damage, although some of them are clearly worn from use.

Let me get a couple things out of the way first: it was rumored there was an 11/40 here.  I didn?t see one, but I saw a mystery PDP-11 in the garage that I believe to be an 11/70.  As near as I can tell, there are two PDP-11 systems in the garage (the mystery 70 and an 11/45), which I believe to be in running or near-to-it shape.

There?s also a *lot* of stuff out in the warehouse, much of it apparently bought from the University of Arizona at auction over the years, largely shrinkwrapped (sometimes to pallets, sometimes not) or stored in plastic bags.  My guess would be that the things in the garage were in general never used after their acquisition, although some may well have been migrated out there after their useful lifespan was over. This is a GUESS.

I have no idea of the condition of any of it, or what was cannibalized as spares for other things; I can say that, in general, it?s been stored out of the weather and doesn?t seem to be water damaged or (for Tucson anyway) very dusty.

I (and the Kaur family, and everyone) make NO GUARANTEE AT ALL of the condition of any of this.  Everything here is sold WHERE IT IS and AS IT IS and it may or may not work or be restorable.  It is YOUR responsibility to pick it up, and if it can?t reasonably be restored, tough luck.  We don?t know, and the one man in the world who DID know is not in any condition at the moment to tell us.

As you might expect from a bulk-mailing business, this collection is super-heavy on printers and various paper-handling devices, as well as tape drives.  These are things I know almost nothing about: I have mostly collected 8-bit micros and videogame systems, and only recently have started acquiring and restoring DEC equipment.

There may well be pictures of things Kristina doesn?t want to include as part of this lot?all the more modern printers and paper-handling stuff is destined for people in the printing-and-mailing world in Tucson.  But there?s an awful lot of stuff here where ?uh, it looks like a lineprinter to me, and maybe you connect it to a PDP-11?? or ?that?s probably a disk drive?? or ?it?s a controller for _something_.?

So among the things I?m asking you to do is to please help identify what I took pictures of.  I?ll call out the things I find particularly interesting and baffling.

I have already offered first pick of the manuals to Al Kossow and bitsavers.org, the Living Computer Museum and Labs, and Jason Scott at the Internet Archives, since that is likelier to get them scanned and preserved than if they just vanish into people?s private collections.  The LCML has indicated interest, and I have not heard back yet from the other two.  If there?s something from the manual collection you particularly want, and one of those three also wants it, you will probably have to work it out with them.  Most of the manuals seem to be for fairly major software, which I suspect (but have not looked to check) that bitsavers already has a copy of.

Kristina asks that you please put together a proposal for what you would like from the collection BY MAY 31, and please use the form on ?Equipment Proposal v2.docx?  (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1oJFVg8MsTie3e3fpdzmfoWmIuQo96aQP <https://drive.google.com/open?id=1oJFVg8MsTie3e3fpdzmfoWmIuQo96aQP>) to do that.  She and her family?s lawyers will evaluate the various received proposals and she will decide on a division of items.

The pictures I took?and many of them are terrible.  In many cases I don?t know what I was looking at, and in other cases, the items were not in convenient spots to photograph; sometimes both.  

All are in the folder at https://drive.google.com/open?id=1kECm7hiYComNDTrLEwPPKIdIZ3MqKJ6y <https://drive.google.com/open?id=1kECm7hiYComNDTrLEwPPKIdIZ3MqKJ6y> .

My inventory of these things is in CSV form at https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Xv5aYu9tE3BUYZOicgJTTJhrDhy2ci89 <https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Xv5aYu9tE3BUYZOicgJTTJhrDhy2ci89> and in slightly-better-looking Numbers (a Mac spreadsheet) form at https://drive.google.com/open?id=15i1hEKjB108cq4g4B7c7gNpn-HDbgRIi <https://drive.google.com/open?id=15i1hEKjB108cq4g4B7c7gNpn-HDbgRIi> .

I make no representation as to its accuracy?it?s just the best I could do in the time I had available.  For most of the items, there is both a line number (some numbers are missing: this is intentional.  They correspond to which spreadsheet line it is, and there are some blank ones) and a reference to the picture of said item, which is the filename (i.e. ?IMG_2xxx.JPG?) in the folder.  I didn?t bother to do image IDs for the manuals?they are mostly in order, and I figure everyone can read, so matching the title to the image is generally straightforward.

A few notes about the items.  It looks to me?and I could be wrong?that there are two PDP-11 systems in the garage.  One is obviously an 11/45, and judging from the structure of the panel, the other is some kind of 11/70, but I?ve never seen a front panel quite like this: https://drive.google.com/open?id=15i1hEKjB108cq4g4B7c7gNpn-HDbgRIi <https://drive.google.com/open?id=15i1hEKjB108cq4g4B7c7gNpn-HDbgRIi> .  Based on the fact that there are two Datasystem 570s out in the warehouse, I suspect it?s a Datasystem with a Frankensteined front panel, but I don?t know.  I think that basically it?s two two-cabinet systems, each with a CPU and a disk in one cabinet and a tape drive in the other cabinet, but again, I?m not sure.

I have no idea whether the pair of Datasystem 570s in the warehouse are intact or not.  There are also three VAXes out there, one 11/750 and two 11/730s.  One of the 11/730s clearly has an attached RL02, but I don?t know about the other two.  Most of the stuff out there, generally, looks like it?s in good shape in the sense that it was put in the warehouse, often in shrink-wrap, and not exposed to light or weather for a long time.  Sometimes a very long time.

I am quite curious about what the Sun Microsystems item (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ZLpoP6ZoHfs3_dvdOFkv9uy68X29OSjV <https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ZLpoP6ZoHfs3_dvdOFkv9uy68X29OSjV>) is?I couldn?t really get to it, and it?s about the right size and shape for a 3/160, but it could also easily be something like a tape drive that Sun OEMed.  It has a plate on it identifying it as part of an ?IRAF? system, and what I know about IRAF is that it?s astronomical software (I am helping design something that the LSST project hopes is a ubiquitous successor to it, sort of), and so I kinda suspect this came out of the astronomy department or Steward Observatory at UA.

There are no pictures of the 13-or-so Decwriters in the warehouse: they?re on a shelf about 10 feet up and you?re going to need either a forklift to get them down, or be extraordinarily brave.  The ADM-3A (well, I think.  It?s obviously an ADM terminal, and these match my mental image of 3As, but I could be wrong about the model) was obviously the terminal of choice here and there are a dozen or so.  Sorry about that, VT-xxx fans.

Again: PLEASE DO NOT WRITE KRISTINA OR ME directly with your offers.  Use the contact form and send your proposal to laura at rubinbernsteinlaw.com <mailto:laura at rubinbernsteinlaw.com> .

I hope this is useful to folks.

Adam

Please find the ?Description? column of the items here below; the spreadsheet is available from the link above.

PDP-11/70?
CDC 9766 #1
CDC 9766 #2
Disks for same system?
System Industries 9400 Controller
PDP-11/45
Kennedy 9401 Tape Drive
Mystery printer
Lineprinter #1
Zoom Modem
Another System Industries 9400 Controller
Lineprinter #2
ADM/3A(?) #1
ADM/3A #2
ADM/3A #3
ADM/3A #4
Hitachi V-1050F Oscilloscope

PDP Datasystem 570 (11/70) #1
PDP Datasystem 570 (11/70) #2
Vax 11/730 w/RL02 disk
Pertech Tape drive #1
Pertec Tape Drive #2
Vax 11/750(?)
Dec Magtape TE16 9-channel
Vax 11/730
RM-80 DEC Disk Drive
Cipher Systems disk drive (?)
CDC disk drives (?)
Kennedy 9400 controller
ADM/3A #5
#6
#7
#8
#9
#10
#11
#12
#13
#14 (? +?)
Lineprinter
Prime 300 MB disk drive #1
Prime 300 MB disk drive #1
PDP-11 panel piece
Tektronix 502 Dual-Beam Oscilloscope
Sun Microsystems ???
IBM 029 Punch
Lineprinter
Yet Another Lineprinter
Cabinet full of University Of Arizona Punchcards
Acoustic-coupled modem
Decwriter #1
Decwriter #2
Decwriter #3
Decwriter #4
Decwriter #5
Decwriter #6
Decwriter #7
Decwriter #8
Decwriter #9
Decwriter #10
Decwriter #11
Decwriter #12
Decwriter #13 (?+?)

ODT-11R Debugging Program, PIP File Utility Package, Link-11 Linker and   Libr-11 Librarian
PDP-11 Filedump Utility Program
PDP-11 Disk Operating System Monitor Programmer's Handbook
MACRO-11 Manual
PDP-11 TECO User's Guide (binder)
BATCH-11 User's Guide
PDP-11 FORTRAN IV Compiler and Object Time System Programmer's Manual (binder)
PDP-11 Programming Fundamentals
VT-100 Technical Manual
VT-100 User Guide
WS200 Series Word Processing Computer System
CSS Products KMD11-C Multipline DDCMP Multiplexer
Digital Standard MUMPS DSM-11 Technical Summary
Something New Is Sweeping The World Of Educational Computing
PDP-11 TECO User's Guide
VAX-11/750 marketing slick
MA780 Multiport memory marketing
DEC Datasystem 500 Indent Guide
FMS-11 Forms Management System
Datatrieve-11
DIGITAL Software Product Description Jan 1986
MUX200/VAX
PDP-11 RSTS v7.0 Release Notes
RT-11 Programmer's Reference Manual
RT-11 Software Support Manual
FORTRAN IV Enhanced Character Graphics
Programmable Data Processor Yesterday and Today
BATCH-11/DOS-11
PDP-11 FORTRAN IV Compiler Technical Specification
PDP-11 Device Driver Package for Monitor Version v008A October 1972
Computer Engineering: A DEC view of Hardware Systems Design
PDP-11 RSTS/E v7.0 Release Notes for the RM05
RSTS/E v7.0 Documentation Directory
FORTRAN IV-Plus User's Guide
PDP-11 FORTRAN-IV Compiler and Object Time System Programmer's Manual
PDP-11 Disk Operating System Monitor User's Manual
DOS/BATCH FORTRAN Compiler and Object Time System
PDP-11 BATCH user's guide
Introducing the PDP-11/44
EDIT manual
RSTS/E Text Editor Manual
another PDP-11 FORTRAN-IV Compiler and Object Time System Programmer's Manual
RSTS-11 System Manager's Guide
DOS/BATCH Debugging Program (ODT-11R) Programmer's Manual
PDP-11 Software Price List March 1973
DEC Newsflash
BASIC-11 Language Reference Manual
RT-11 Manual
1975 Special Decus Issue Technical Documentation
PDP Systems and Options Catalog 1989 Jan-June
BATCH-11/DOS-11 Assembler (MACRO-11)
A General Purpose System for Interfacing a PDP-8 Computer to Pulse Counting Experiment (DECUSCOPE)
Introduction to RSX-11M
RSX-11D Guide to Writing a Device Handler Task
VAX Software Handbook
VAX11 Architecture Handbook
VAX11/780 Hardware Handbook
RSTS/E RUNOFF User's Guide
Wespercorp DEC TM11-Compatible Tape Controller Diagnostic Manual
Wespercorp Model TC-131 Tape Controller Hardware Manual
Wespercorp Model TC-131 Tape Controller Logic Manual
BATCH-11/DOS-11 Debugging Program (ODT-11R)
PDP-11 BASIC Programming Manual (Single User, Paper Tape Software)
PDP-11 PAL-11S Assembler and LINK-11S Linker Programmer's Manual
PDP-11 Edit-11 Text Editor Programmer's Manual
PDP-11 FORTRAN Language Reference Manual
PDP-11 FORTRAN Language Reference Manual (#2)
BATCH-11/DOS-11 Edit-11 Text Editor Programmer's Manual
DOS/BATCH Text Editor (EDIT-11) Programmer's Manual
RSTS/E Text Editor Manual
another RSTS/E RUNOFF User's Guide
RSTS-11 System User's Guide
RSTS-11 System User's Guide Addendum RSTS Version 4B RSTS/E Version 5C (February 1975)
Computer Programs For Automatic Countouring (McIntyre et al)
FORTRAN IV Computer Program For Fitting Conserved Count Data?.(Ondrick & Griffith)
FORTRAN IV CDC 6400 Computer Program to Analyze Subsurface Fold Geometry (Whitten)

From athornton at gmail.com  Sat May 18 00:09:18 2019
From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton)
Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 22:09:18 -0700
Subject: Kaur collection inventory
Message-ID: <906B385E-31F7-4715-B54F-5D14CCDB4596@gmail.com>

Last Saturday I went out to the location where the collection mentioned by Kristina Kaur resides, to take photos, create an inventory to the best of my abilities, and help her solicit proposals for the various items.  

I?m going to lead off with one of my last sentences in this email: PLEASE DO NOT WRITE KRISTINA, OR ME, DIRECTLY WITH YOUR OFFERS.  Use the contact form in the Google Drive folder (see below) I?m pointing to and send your proposal to laura at rubinbernsteinlaw.com <mailto:laura at rubinbernsteinlaw.com> .  I have no power over the disposition of any of this?I am just the chronicler?and Kristina wants to route all proposals for acquiring these things through the family's lawyer.

The basic background is this: all of this stuff belongs to a man who has run a bulk-mailing business for many years, and who wrote a bunch of his own software for PDP-11 machines to do that bulk mailing.  He has continued to use the PDP-11s until, apparently, quite recently.

He also, unfortunately, has recently had a stroke, and although he is expected to recover, he is not going to be able to continue running the business, and particularly not from these machines.  So his daughter, Kristina, has decided to make the collection available to people who will do right by it (preferably in a public museum), rather than just send it to the scrapper, which is awfully nice of her.

I want to express my gratitude to Kristina for allowing me to go out there and root through the collection, and to Ruthann, who provided good company during the digging and invaluable service during the search.

There are three locations for all these items.  Computing equipment is either in a climate-controlled garage, and apparently has been running until quite recently, or it is in a warehouse, which I do not believe to be climate-controlled but is walled and roofed and kept dark, which are all good things in Tucson.  All the manuals were on a bookshelf in the home office, and were kept climate-controlled and relatively dust-free.  The manuals are in excellent shape considering their age, with no environmental damage, although some of them are clearly worn from use.

Let me get a couple things out of the way first: it was rumored there was an 11/40 here.  I didn?t see one, but I saw a mystery PDP-11 in the garage that I believe to be an 11/70.  As near as I can tell, there are two PDP-11 systems in the garage (the mystery 70 and an 11/45), which I believe to be in running or near-to-it shape.

There?s also a *lot* of stuff out in the warehouse, much of it apparently bought from the University of Arizona at auction over the years, largely shrinkwrapped (sometimes to pallets, sometimes not) or stored in plastic bags.  My guess would be that the things in the garage were in general never used after their acquisition, although some may well have been migrated out there after their useful lifespan was over. This is a GUESS.

I have no idea of the condition of any of it, or what was cannibalized as spares for other things; I can say that, in general, it?s been stored out of the weather and doesn?t seem to be water damaged or (for Tucson anyway) very dusty.

I (and the Kaur family, and everyone) make NO GUARANTEE AT ALL of the condition of any of this.  Everything here is sold WHERE IT IS and AS IT IS and it may or may not work or be restorable.  It is YOUR responsibility to pick it up, and if it can?t reasonably be restored, tough luck.  We don?t know, and the one man in the world who DID know is not in any condition at the moment to tell us.

As you might expect from a bulk-mailing business, this collection is super-heavy on printers and various paper-handling devices, as well as tape drives.  These are things I know almost nothing about: I have mostly collected 8-bit micros and videogame systems, and only recently have started acquiring and restoring DEC equipment.

There may well be pictures of things Kristina doesn?t want to include as part of this lot?all the more modern printers and paper-handling stuff is destined for people in the printing-and-mailing world in Tucson.  But there?s an awful lot of stuff here where ?uh, it looks like a lineprinter to me, and maybe you connect it to a PDP-11?? or ?that?s probably a disk drive?? or ?it?s a controller for _something_.?

So among the things I?m asking you to do is to please help identify what I took pictures of.  I?ll call out the things I find particularly interesting and baffling.

I have already offered first pick of the manuals to Al Kossow and bitsavers.org <http://bitsavers.org/>, the Living Computer Museum and Labs, and Jason Scott at the Internet Archives, since that is likelier to get them scanned and preserved than if they just vanish into people?s private collections.  The LCML has indicated interest, and I have not heard back yet from the other two.  If there?s something from the manual collection you particularly want, and one of those three also wants it, you will probably have to work it out with them.  Most of the manuals seem to be for fairly major software, which I suspect (but have not looked to check) that bitsavers already has a copy of.

Kristina asks that you please put together a proposal for what you would like from the collection BY MAY 31, and please use the form on ?Equipment Proposal v2.docx?  (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1oJFVg8MsTie3e3fpdzmfoWmIuQo96aQP <https://drive.google.com/open?id=1oJFVg8MsTie3e3fpdzmfoWmIuQo96aQP>) to do that.  She and her family?s lawyers will evaluate the various received proposals and she will decide on a division of items.

The pictures I took?and many of them are terrible.  In many cases I don?t know what I was looking at, and in other cases, the items were not in convenient spots to photograph; sometimes both.  

All are in the folder at https://drive.google.com/open?id=1kECm7hiYComNDTrLEwPPKIdIZ3MqKJ6y <https://drive.google.com/open?id=1kECm7hiYComNDTrLEwPPKIdIZ3MqKJ6y> .

My inventory of these things is in CSV form at https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Xv5aYu9tE3BUYZOicgJTTJhrDhy2ci89 <https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Xv5aYu9tE3BUYZOicgJTTJhrDhy2ci89> and in slightly-better-looking Numbers (a Mac spreadsheet) form at https://drive.google.com/open?id=15i1hEKjB108cq4g4B7c7gNpn-HDbgRIi <https://drive.google.com/open?id=15i1hEKjB108cq4g4B7c7gNpn-HDbgRIi> .

I make no representation as to its accuracy?it?s just the best I could do in the time I had available.  For most of the items, there is both a line number (some numbers are missing: this is intentional.  They correspond to which spreadsheet line it is, and there are some blank ones) and a reference to the picture of said item, which is the filename (i.e. ?IMG_2xxx.JPG?) in the folder.  I didn?t bother to do image IDs for the manuals?they are mostly in order, and I figure everyone can read, so matching the title to the image is generally straightforward.

A few notes about the items.  It looks to me?and I could be wrong?that there are two PDP-11 systems in the garage.  One is obviously an 11/45, and judging from the structure of the panel, the other is some kind of 11/70, but I?ve never seen a front panel quite like this: https://drive.google.com/open?id=15i1hEKjB108cq4g4B7c7gNpn-HDbgRIi <https://drive.google.com/open?id=15i1hEKjB108cq4g4B7c7gNpn-HDbgRIi> .  Based on the fact that there are two Datasystem 570s out in the warehouse, I suspect it?s a Datasystem with a Frankensteined front panel, but I don?t know.  I think that basically it?s two two-cabinet systems, each with a CPU and a disk in one cabinet and a tape drive in the other cabinet, but again, I?m not sure.

I have no idea whether the pair of Datasystem 570s in the warehouse are intact or not.  There are also three VAXes out there, one 11/750 and two 11/730s.  One of the 11/730s clearly has an attached RL02, but I don?t know about the other two.  Most of the stuff out there, generally, looks like it?s in good shape in the sense that it was put in the warehouse, often in shrink-wrap, and not exposed to light or weather for a long time.  Sometimes a very long time.

I am quite curious about what the Sun Microsystems item (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ZLpoP6ZoHfs3_dvdOFkv9uy68X29OSjV <https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ZLpoP6ZoHfs3_dvdOFkv9uy68X29OSjV>) is?I couldn?t really get to it, and it?s about the right size and shape for a 3/160, but it could also easily be something like a tape drive that Sun OEMed.  It has a plate on it identifying it as part of an ?IRAF? system, and what I know about IRAF is that it?s astronomical software (I am helping design something that the LSST project hopes is a ubiquitous successor to it, sort of), and so I kinda suspect this came out of the astronomy department or Steward Observatory at UA.

There are no pictures of the 13-or-so Decwriters in the warehouse: they?re on a shelf about 10 feet up and you?re going to need either a forklift to get them down, or be extraordinarily brave.  The ADM-3A (well, I think.  It?s obviously an ADM terminal, and these match my mental image of 3As, but I could be wrong about the model) was obviously the terminal of choice here and there are a dozen or so.  Sorry about that, VT-xxx fans.

Again: PLEASE DO NOT WRITE KRISTINA OR ME directly with your offers.  Use the contact form and send your proposal to laura at rubinbernsteinlaw.com <mailto:laura at rubinbernsteinlaw.com> .

I hope this is useful to folks.

Adam


From athornton at gmail.com  Sat May 18 00:17:42 2019
From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton)
Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 22:17:42 -0700
Subject: Kaur Collection Inventory
Message-ID: <D0B3FA19-24B6-452F-8211-70F9326523FB@gmail.com>

Last Saturday I went out to the location where the collection mentioned by Kristina Kaur resides, to take photos, create an inventory to the best of my abilities, and help her solicit proposals for the various items.  

I?m going to lead off with one of my last sentences in this email: PLEASE DO NOT WRITE KRISTINA, OR ME, DIRECTLY WITH YOUR OFFERS.  Use the contact form in the Google Drive folder (see below) I?m pointing to and send your proposal to laura at rubinbernsteinlaw.com <mailto:laura at rubinbernsteinlaw.com> .  I have no power over the disposition of any of this?I am just the chronicler?and Kristina wants to route all proposals for acquiring these things through the family's lawyer.

The basic background is this: all of this stuff belongs to a man who has run a bulk-mailing business for many years, and who wrote a bunch of his own software for PDP-11 machines to do that bulk mailing.  He has continued to use the PDP-11s until, apparently, quite recently.

He also, unfortunately, has recently had a stroke, and although he is expected to recover, he is not going to be able to continue running the business, and particularly not from these machines.  So his daughter, Kristina, has decided to make the collection available to people who will do right by it (preferably in a public museum), rather than just send it to the scrapper, which is awfully nice of her.

I want to express my gratitude to Kristina for allowing me to go out there and root through the collection, and to Ruthann, who provided good company during the digging and invaluable service during the search.

There are three locations for all these items.  Computing equipment is either in a climate-controlled garage, and apparently has been running until quite recently, or it is in a warehouse, which I do not believe to be climate-controlled but is walled and roofed and kept dark, which are all good things in Tucson.  All the manuals were on a bookshelf in the home office, and were kept climate-controlled and relatively dust-free.  The manuals are in excellent shape considering their age, with no environmental damage, although some of them are clearly worn from use.

Let me get a couple things out of the way first: it was rumored there was an 11/40 here.  I didn?t see one, but I saw a mystery PDP-11 in the garage that I believe to be an 11/70.  As near as I can tell, there are two PDP-11 systems in the garage (the mystery 70 and an 11/45), which I believe to be in running or near-to-it shape.

There?s also a *lot* of stuff out in the warehouse, much of it apparently bought from the University of Arizona at auction over the years, largely shrinkwrapped (sometimes to pallets, sometimes not) or stored in plastic bags.  My guess would be that the things in the garage were in general never used after their acquisition, although some may well have been migrated out there after their useful lifespan was over. This is a GUESS.

I have no idea of the condition of any of it, or what was cannibalized as spares for other things; I can say that, in general, it?s been stored out of the weather and doesn?t seem to be water damaged or (for Tucson anyway) very dusty.

I (and the Kaur family, and everyone) make NO GUARANTEE AT ALL of the condition of any of this.  Everything here is sold WHERE IT IS and AS IT IS and it may or may not work or be restorable.  It is YOUR responsibility to pick it up, and if it can?t reasonably be restored, tough luck.  We don?t know, and the one man in the world who DID know is not in any condition at the moment to tell us.

As you might expect from a bulk-mailing business, this collection is super-heavy on printers and various paper-handling devices, as well as tape drives.  These are things I know almost nothing about: I have mostly collected 8-bit micros and videogame systems, and only recently have started acquiring and restoring DEC equipment.

There may well be pictures of things Kristina doesn?t want to include as part of this lot?all the more modern printers and paper-handling stuff is destined for people in the printing-and-mailing world in Tucson.  But there?s an awful lot of stuff here where ?uh, it looks like a lineprinter to me, and maybe you connect it to a PDP-11?? or ?that?s probably a disk drive?? or ?it?s a controller for _something_.?

So among the things I?m asking you to do is to please help identify what I took pictures of.  I?ll call out the things I find particularly interesting and baffling.

I have already offered first pick of the manuals to Al Kossow and bitsavers.org <http://bitsavers.org/>, the Living Computer Museum and Labs, and Jason Scott at the Internet Archives, since that is likelier to get them scanned and preserved than if they just vanish into people?s private collections.  The LCML has indicated interest, and I have not heard back yet from the other two.  If there?s something from the manual collection you particularly want, and one of those three also wants it, you will probably have to work it out with them.  Most of the manuals seem to be for fairly major software, which I suspect (but have not looked to check) that bitsavers already has a copy of.

Kristina asks that you please put together a proposal for what you would like from the collection BY MAY 31, and please use the form on ?Equipment Proposal v2.docx?  (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1oJFVg8MsTie3e3fpdzmfoWmIuQo96aQP <https://drive.google.com/open?id=1oJFVg8MsTie3e3fpdzmfoWmIuQo96aQP>) to do that.  She and her family?s lawyers will evaluate the various received proposals and she will decide on a division of items.

The pictures I took?and many of them are terrible.  In many cases I don?t know what I was looking at, and in other cases, the items were not in convenient spots to photograph; sometimes both.  

All are in the folder at https://drive.google.com/open?id=1kECm7hiYComNDTrLEwPPKIdIZ3MqKJ6y <https://drive.google.com/open?id=1kECm7hiYComNDTrLEwPPKIdIZ3MqKJ6y> .

My inventory of these things is in CSV form at https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Xv5aYu9tE3BUYZOicgJTTJhrDhy2ci89 <https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Xv5aYu9tE3BUYZOicgJTTJhrDhy2ci89> and in slightly-better-looking Numbers (a Mac spreadsheet) form at https://drive.google.com/open?id=15i1hEKjB108cq4g4B7c7gNpn-HDbgRIi <https://drive.google.com/open?id=15i1hEKjB108cq4g4B7c7gNpn-HDbgRIi> .

I make no representation as to its accuracy?it?s just the best I could do in the time I had available.  For most of the items, there is both a line number (some numbers are missing: this is intentional.  They correspond to which spreadsheet line it is, and there are some blank ones) and a reference to the picture of said item, which is the filename (i.e. ?IMG_2xxx.JPG?) in the folder.  I didn?t bother to do image IDs for the manuals?they are mostly in order, and I figure everyone can read, so matching the title to the image is generally straightforward.

A few notes about the items.  It looks to me?and I could be wrong?that there are two PDP-11 systems in the garage.  One is obviously an 11/45, and judging from the structure of the panel, the other is some kind of 11/70, but I?ve never seen a front panel quite like this: https://drive.google.com/open?id=15i1hEKjB108cq4g4B7c7gNpn-HDbgRIi <https://drive.google.com/open?id=15i1hEKjB108cq4g4B7c7gNpn-HDbgRIi> .  Based on the fact that there are two Datasystem 570s out in the warehouse, I suspect it?s a Datasystem with a Frankensteined front panel, but I don?t know.  I think that basically it?s two two-cabinet systems, each with a CPU and a disk in one cabinet and a tape drive in the other cabinet, but again, I?m not sure.

I have no idea whether the pair of Datasystem 570s in the warehouse are intact or not.  There are also three VAXes out there, one 11/750 and two 11/730s.  One of the 11/730s clearly has an attached RL02, but I don?t know about the other two.  Most of the stuff out there, generally, looks like it?s in good shape in the sense that it was put in the warehouse, often in shrink-wrap, and not exposed to light or weather for a long time.  Sometimes a very long time.

I am quite curious about what the Sun Microsystems item (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ZLpoP6ZoHfs3_dvdOFkv9uy68X29OSjV <https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ZLpoP6ZoHfs3_dvdOFkv9uy68X29OSjV>) is?I couldn?t really get to it, and it?s about the right size and shape for a 3/160, but it could also easily be something like a tape drive that Sun OEMed.  It has a plate on it identifying it as part of an ?IRAF? system, and what I know about IRAF is that it?s astronomical software (I am helping design something that the LSST project hopes is a ubiquitous successor to it, sort of), and so I kinda suspect this came out of the astronomy department or Steward Observatory at UA.

There are no pictures of the 13-or-so Decwriters in the warehouse: they?re on a shelf about 10 feet up and you?re going to need either a forklift to get them down, or be extraordinarily brave.  The ADM-3A (well, I think.  It?s obviously an ADM terminal, and these match my mental image of 3As, but I could be wrong about the model) was obviously the terminal of choice here and there are a dozen or so.  Sorry about that, VT-xxx fans.

Again: PLEASE DO NOT WRITE KRISTINA OR ME directly with your offers.  Use the contact form and send your proposal to laura at rubinbernsteinlaw.com <mailto:laura at rubinbernsteinlaw.com> .

I hope this is useful to folks.

Adam

From edcross at gmail.com  Sat May 18 00:50:32 2019
From: edcross at gmail.com (Ed C.)
Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 07:50:32 +0200
Subject: Kaur Collection Inventory
In-Reply-To: <D0B3FA19-24B6-452F-8211-70F9326523FB@gmail.com>
References: <D0B3FA19-24B6-452F-8211-70F9326523FB@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+6V906J+QWmg3jU3LesYxZ-DziviMX1_2nydu_HcCcVzBhpMg@mail.gmail.com>

This is very nice from you Adam, hats off. Thanks for putting this together.

On Sat, May 18, 2019 at 7:17 AM Adam Thornton via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Last Saturday I went out to the location where the collection mentioned by
> Kristina Kaur resides, to take photos, create an inventory to the best of
> my abilities, and help her solicit proposals for the various items.
>
> I?m going to lead off with one of my last sentences in this email: PLEASE
> DO NOT WRITE KRISTINA, OR ME, DIRECTLY WITH YOUR OFFERS.  Use the contact
> form in the Google Drive folder (see below) I?m pointing to and send your
> proposal to laura at rubinbernsteinlaw.com <mailto:
> laura at rubinbernsteinlaw.com> .  I have no power over the disposition of
> any of this?I am just the chronicler?and Kristina wants to route all
> proposals for acquiring these things through the family's lawyer.
>
> The basic background is this: all of this stuff belongs to a man who has
> run a bulk-mailing business for many years, and who wrote a bunch of his
> own software for PDP-11 machines to do that bulk mailing.  He has continued
> to use the PDP-11s until, apparently, quite recently.
>
> He also, unfortunately, has recently had a stroke, and although he is
> expected to recover, he is not going to be able to continue running the
> business, and particularly not from these machines.  So his daughter,
> Kristina, has decided to make the collection available to people who will
> do right by it (preferably in a public museum), rather than just send it to
> the scrapper, which is awfully nice of her.
>
> I want to express my gratitude to Kristina for allowing me to go out there
> and root through the collection, and to Ruthann, who provided good company
> during the digging and invaluable service during the search.
>
> There are three locations for all these items.  Computing equipment is
> either in a climate-controlled garage, and apparently has been running
> until quite recently, or it is in a warehouse, which I do not believe to be
> climate-controlled but is walled and roofed and kept dark, which are all
> good things in Tucson.  All the manuals were on a bookshelf in the home
> office, and were kept climate-controlled and relatively dust-free.  The
> manuals are in excellent shape considering their age, with no environmental
> damage, although some of them are clearly worn from use.
>
> Let me get a couple things out of the way first: it was rumored there was
> an 11/40 here.  I didn?t see one, but I saw a mystery PDP-11 in the garage
> that I believe to be an 11/70.  As near as I can tell, there are two PDP-11
> systems in the garage (the mystery 70 and an 11/45), which I believe to be
> in running or near-to-it shape.
>
> There?s also a *lot* of stuff out in the warehouse, much of it apparently
> bought from the University of Arizona at auction over the years, largely
> shrinkwrapped (sometimes to pallets, sometimes not) or stored in plastic
> bags.  My guess would be that the things in the garage were in general
> never used after their acquisition, although some may well have been
> migrated out there after their useful lifespan was over. This is a GUESS.
>
> I have no idea of the condition of any of it, or what was cannibalized as
> spares for other things; I can say that, in general, it?s been stored out
> of the weather and doesn?t seem to be water damaged or (for Tucson anyway)
> very dusty.
>
> I (and the Kaur family, and everyone) make NO GUARANTEE AT ALL of the
> condition of any of this.  Everything here is sold WHERE IT IS and AS IT IS
> and it may or may not work or be restorable.  It is YOUR responsibility to
> pick it up, and if it can?t reasonably be restored, tough luck.  We don?t
> know, and the one man in the world who DID know is not in any condition at
> the moment to tell us.
>
> As you might expect from a bulk-mailing business, this collection is
> super-heavy on printers and various paper-handling devices, as well as tape
> drives.  These are things I know almost nothing about: I have mostly
> collected 8-bit micros and videogame systems, and only recently have
> started acquiring and restoring DEC equipment.
>
> There may well be pictures of things Kristina doesn?t want to include as
> part of this lot?all the more modern printers and paper-handling stuff is
> destined for people in the printing-and-mailing world in Tucson.  But
> there?s an awful lot of stuff here where ?uh, it looks like a lineprinter
> to me, and maybe you connect it to a PDP-11?? or ?that?s probably a disk
> drive?? or ?it?s a controller for _something_.?
>
> So among the things I?m asking you to do is to please help identify what I
> took pictures of.  I?ll call out the things I find particularly interesting
> and baffling.
>
> I have already offered first pick of the manuals to Al Kossow and
> bitsavers.org <http://bitsavers.org/>, the Living Computer Museum and
> Labs, and Jason Scott at the Internet Archives, since that is likelier to
> get them scanned and preserved than if they just vanish into people?s
> private collections.  The LCML has indicated interest, and I have not heard
> back yet from the other two.  If there?s something from the manual
> collection you particularly want, and one of those three also wants it, you
> will probably have to work it out with them.  Most of the manuals seem to
> be for fairly major software, which I suspect (but have not looked to
> check) that bitsavers already has a copy of.
>
> Kristina asks that you please put together a proposal for what you would
> like from the collection BY MAY 31, and please use the form on ?Equipment
> Proposal v2.docx?  (
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1oJFVg8MsTie3e3fpdzmfoWmIuQo96aQP <
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1oJFVg8MsTie3e3fpdzmfoWmIuQo96aQP>) to
> do that.  She and her family?s lawyers will evaluate the various received
> proposals and she will decide on a division of items.
>
> The pictures I took?and many of them are terrible.  In many cases I don?t
> know what I was looking at, and in other cases, the items were not in
> convenient spots to photograph; sometimes both.
>
> All are in the folder at
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1kECm7hiYComNDTrLEwPPKIdIZ3MqKJ6y <
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1kECm7hiYComNDTrLEwPPKIdIZ3MqKJ6y> .
>
> My inventory of these things is in CSV form at
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Xv5aYu9tE3BUYZOicgJTTJhrDhy2ci89 <
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Xv5aYu9tE3BUYZOicgJTTJhrDhy2ci89> and
> in slightly-better-looking Numbers (a Mac spreadsheet) form at
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=15i1hEKjB108cq4g4B7c7gNpn-HDbgRIi <
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=15i1hEKjB108cq4g4B7c7gNpn-HDbgRIi> .
>
> I make no representation as to its accuracy?it?s just the best I could do
> in the time I had available.  For most of the items, there is both a line
> number (some numbers are missing: this is intentional.  They correspond to
> which spreadsheet line it is, and there are some blank ones) and a
> reference to the picture of said item, which is the filename (i.e.
> ?IMG_2xxx.JPG?) in the folder.  I didn?t bother to do image IDs for the
> manuals?they are mostly in order, and I figure everyone can read, so
> matching the title to the image is generally straightforward.
>
> A few notes about the items.  It looks to me?and I could be wrong?that
> there are two PDP-11 systems in the garage.  One is obviously an 11/45, and
> judging from the structure of the panel, the other is some kind of 11/70,
> but I?ve never seen a front panel quite like this:
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=15i1hEKjB108cq4g4B7c7gNpn-HDbgRIi <
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=15i1hEKjB108cq4g4B7c7gNpn-HDbgRIi> .
> Based on the fact that there are two Datasystem 570s out in the warehouse,
> I suspect it?s a Datasystem with a Frankensteined front panel, but I don?t
> know.  I think that basically it?s two two-cabinet systems, each with a CPU
> and a disk in one cabinet and a tape drive in the other cabinet, but again,
> I?m not sure.
>
> I have no idea whether the pair of Datasystem 570s in the warehouse are
> intact or not.  There are also three VAXes out there, one 11/750 and two
> 11/730s.  One of the 11/730s clearly has an attached RL02, but I don?t know
> about the other two.  Most of the stuff out there, generally, looks like
> it?s in good shape in the sense that it was put in the warehouse, often in
> shrink-wrap, and not exposed to light or weather for a long time.
> Sometimes a very long time.
>
> I am quite curious about what the Sun Microsystems item (
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ZLpoP6ZoHfs3_dvdOFkv9uy68X29OSjV <
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ZLpoP6ZoHfs3_dvdOFkv9uy68X29OSjV>) is?I
> couldn?t really get to it, and it?s about the right size and shape for a
> 3/160, but it could also easily be something like a tape drive that Sun
> OEMed.  It has a plate on it identifying it as part of an ?IRAF? system,
> and what I know about IRAF is that it?s astronomical software (I am helping
> design something that the LSST project hopes is a ubiquitous successor to
> it, sort of), and so I kinda suspect this came out of the astronomy
> department or Steward Observatory at UA.
>
> There are no pictures of the 13-or-so Decwriters in the warehouse: they?re
> on a shelf about 10 feet up and you?re going to need either a forklift to
> get them down, or be extraordinarily brave.  The ADM-3A (well, I think.
> It?s obviously an ADM terminal, and these match my mental image of 3As, but
> I could be wrong about the model) was obviously the terminal of choice here
> and there are a dozen or so.  Sorry about that, VT-xxx fans.
>
> Again: PLEASE DO NOT WRITE KRISTINA OR ME directly with your offers.  Use
> the contact form and send your proposal to laura at rubinbernsteinlaw.com
> <mailto:laura at rubinbernsteinlaw.com> .
>
> I hope this is useful to folks.
>
> Adam

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sat May 18 02:45:11 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 03:45:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Kaur Collection Inventory
Message-ID: <20190518074511.62BCB18C09E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Ed Cross

    > I saw a mystery PDP-11 in the garage that I believe to be an 11/70. 

Yeah, I think so; someone has transplanted a few red/purple toggles into it
(perhaps some of the original blues got broken), but it's a /70 front panel,
which won't (without major kludging/surgery) work on any other model.

Without pictures of the insides of the main pull-out bay, and any others
(there should be at least one, for the main memory) it's impossible to
say how complete a system it is; -11/70 CPU boards are easy to find, though.

    > please help identify what I took pictures of. 

A couple of things I hoticed quickly: 2349 shows a PR05 high-speed paper tape
reader (like the PC05, but reader-only), and 2325 a CR11 card reader (a
Documation unit re-badged by DEC).


My impression from looking at it all is that it's a huge pile of stuff, and
some is probably just junk that should go to the scrappers.

Their process, with the lawyer, is probably too top-heavy for a lot of the
smaller items (e.g. 2387 shows a partial PDP-11 front panel which might be of
some interest - e.g. I'd buy it if it showed up on eBait). Perhaps some
one/group who is local can take everything that's left, after the main items
(e.g. the VAX 750 - those are rare, I'm sure someone will scoop that up) are
picked out, as a cheap lot, and sort out the good bits and put them up on
eBait, and scrap the crap.

    > I hope this is useful to folks.

Yes, very; thanks very much for putting in the effort.

	Noel

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sat May 18 07:56:51 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 08:56:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: "industrial" PDP-11
Message-ID: <20190518125651.7B09C18C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    From: Paul Anderson

    > They did make the RT100, RT340, etc. which were rugidized versions or
    > the VTs.

We also ran into a VT52 (I think, although possibly it was a VT100) which
apparently had been TEMPEST secured; the inside of the casing had been
coated with a metallic film. (Or perhaps it was built to operate in
an environment with a high E-M radiation level, and kept stuff out, not
in.) I don't recall anything else about it now, alas - it's been almost
40 years!

	Noel

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Sat May 18 08:21:52 2019
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 09:21:52 -0400
Subject: "industrial" PDP-11
In-Reply-To: <20190518125651.7B09C18C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190518125651.7B09C18C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CANij+de=-ic5Q7+m3hCvQtMvotHuzPsG0QZUBzQdMG35ZnJTvg@mail.gmail.com>

Tempest VT100 are generally marked VT100 TEMPEST on the front tag.

--
Will

On Sat, May 18, 2019 at 8:57 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>     From: Paul Anderson
>
>     > They did make the RT100, RT340, etc. which were rugidized versions or
>     > the VTs.
>
> We also ran into a VT52 (I think, although possibly it was a VT100) which
> apparently had been TEMPEST secured; the inside of the casing had been
> coated with a metallic film. (Or perhaps it was built to operate in
> an environment with a high E-M radiation level, and kept stuff out, not
> in.) I don't recall anything else about it now, alas - it's been almost
> 40 years!
>
>         Noel

From tshoppa at wmata.com  Sat May 18 09:33:50 2019
From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim)
Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 14:33:50 +0000
Subject: Tape seals?
Message-ID: <BN8PR06MB53944E84556E249AF024BB44BA040@BN8PR06MB5394.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

Just a reminder: "Tape seal" is a generic name (or defunct trademark?) for the wrap-around plastic tape hanger for half-inch magtape reels. There's a flexible white (soft plastic) or beige (hard plastic) belt with a clamp (sometimes black) and a hanger. They usually had a little place to put a label in them too. They usually came with a new reel of tape but you could also buy them by themselves.


20 years ago I had thousands of 9-tracks hanging from decaying tape seals. Every couple days I would find a couple of tapes dropped to the floor and their tape seal broken. At the time it was no problem to find surplus tapes with recent tape seals to rehang them, and tape seals were still available new. Most of mine came from Southern California where I think the ozone in the atmosphere severely limited useful life of the plastics.


Here in 2019 I only have a few dozen tapes and few remaining tape seals. I suspect any source I found of tape seals would be selling 20-year old tape seals.


Is there any outfit that sells "new tape seals"? Or a preferred better way to hang tapes in 2019? It wouldn't surprise me if an archivist told me hanging tapes was the wrong way to store them but I never have really noticed (temperature/humidity changes seem to be a way bigger problem than storage orientation).


P.S. Yes all these tapes were imaged decades ago. Not really sure why I still have them around unless say I need to boot a PDP-11 or VAX OS from 9-track which I guess hasn't happened in at least a decade for me.


Tim N3QE

From aek at bitsavers.org  Sat May 18 10:21:29 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 08:21:29 -0700
Subject: ISO Network General Sniffer 5.x manual set
Message-ID: <af46daf9-edec-f1b3-7227-7d693cb1a470@bitsavers.org>

I've been working on archiving two Sniffers (ethernet and wan) and
was wondering if anyone had a spare manual set. I have access to a
set, but it is bound and would have to be scanned a page at a time


From aek at bitsavers.org  Sat May 18 10:22:45 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 08:22:45 -0700
Subject: Tape seals?
In-Reply-To: <BN8PR06MB53944E84556E249AF024BB44BA040@BN8PR06MB5394.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <BN8PR06MB53944E84556E249AF024BB44BA040@BN8PR06MB5394.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <bb179347-a133-e95e-743b-f672dc084fca@bitsavers.org>



On 5/18/19 7:33 AM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk wrote:

> Is there any outfit that sells "new tape seals"?

nope

Chuck just went through this and decided to use film canisters



From aek at bitsavers.org  Sat May 18 10:25:03 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 08:25:03 -0700
Subject: Tape seals?
In-Reply-To: <BN8PR06MB53944E84556E249AF024BB44BA040@BN8PR06MB5394.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
References: <BN8PR06MB53944E84556E249AF024BB44BA040@BN8PR06MB5394.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <76896d43-d890-21eb-28fc-f8ee9c7aff81@bitsavers.org>



On 5/18/19 7:33 AM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk wrote:

> Is there any outfit that sells "new tape seals"? Or a preferred better way to hang tapes in 2019?

FWIW, IBM auto-load hard plastic seems to be holding up better, you might be able to find a small
quantity of those around.

Failing that, late era crappy tape might be found, and the seals scavenged though the price is
probably prohibative.





From fritzm at fritzm.org  Sat May 18 11:03:31 2019
From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller)
Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 09:03:31 -0700
Subject: Kaur Collection Inventory
In-Reply-To: <D0B3FA19-24B6-452F-8211-70F9326523FB@gmail.com>
References: <D0B3FA19-24B6-452F-8211-70F9326523FB@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DAEAEBD2-8640-44CF-A58F-816D169EAE2A@fritzm.org>

Hi Adam,

2307 is an LA30-P (the parallel version of the LA30), like the ones restored by Herb, Mattis, and myself:

http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/decwriter.html
http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/digital-equipment-corporation/pdp-11-04 (scroll down 3/4)
http://fritzm.github.io/la30-4.html

  --FritzM.



From cclist at sydex.com  Sat May 18 11:36:44 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 09:36:44 -0700
Subject: Tape seals?
In-Reply-To: <76896d43-d890-21eb-28fc-f8ee9c7aff81@bitsavers.org>
References: <BN8PR06MB53944E84556E249AF024BB44BA040@BN8PR06MB5394.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <76896d43-d890-21eb-28fc-f8ee9c7aff81@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <cbd7d2ec-1af4-8295-9e4a-092e5f033a9c@sydex.com>

On 5/18/19 8:25 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
> On 5/18/19 7:33 AM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> Is there any outfit that sells "new tape seals"? Or a preferred better way to hang tapes in 2019?
> 
> FWIW, IBM auto-load hard plastic seems to be holding up better, you might be able to find a small
> quantity of those around.
> 
> Failing that, late era crappy tape might be found, and the seals scavenged though the price is
> probably prohibative.


Exactly.  After cruising for about a year or so, looking for tape seal
replacements, I decided that none were to be had.  Not even the few
places that still sell NOS tapes had any to spare for any price.  And
any old stock is likely to be deteriorating.  I suspect that no new tape
seals have been produced in the last 20 years.

After doing more investigation, I settled on 800' 16mm film cans made
for archival preservation.  There appear to be two types (I have samples
of both)--one vented and the other not. This makes sense as a lot of
acetate-based film stock was manufactured and, as it decays, gives off
acetic acid, which, unless removed, further corrupts the film base.

Of course, if you have the old Wright-Line style of tape racks, you
can't hang film cans.

Fortunately, all of the magnetic tape that I've seen is mylar-based,
which doesn't have the problem, so no venting is necessary.  Magtape
issues are mostly due to deterioration of the tape binder, for which
"baking" can go a long way to at least temporarily remedy.

Both types of film cans are made from polypropylene, as far as I can
tell, so they're probably good for my lifetime, at least. A 10.5" reel
of tape fits quite nicely, such that no additional support is needed.

Larry Urbanski seems to have the best price on the cans, about $5.75
each, but he'll negotiate for quantity.

There may be better solutions, but I haven't come up with one yet.  It's
a bit funny; I can remember when the tape seal adoption was causing
dumpster-loads of hard plastic tape cases to be scrapped.  The cases
that remain tend to be intact, even after 50 years.

--Chuck





From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Sat May 18 12:22:59 2019
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 17:22:59 +0000
Subject: "industrial" PDP-11
In-Reply-To: <20190518125651.7B09C18C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190518125651.7B09C18C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CY1PR01MB2140FB4252F379604DD55B4FED040@CY1PR01MB2140.prod.exchangelabs.com>

On 5/18/19 8:56 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
>      From: Paul Anderson
> 
>      > They did make the RT100, RT340, etc. which were rugidized versions or
>      > the VTs.
> 
> We also ran into a VT52 (I think, although possibly it was a VT100) which
> apparently had been TEMPEST secured; the inside of the casing had been
> coated with a metallic film. (Or perhaps it was built to operate in
> an environment with a high E-M radiation level, and kept stuff out, not
> in.) I don't recall anything else about it now, alas - it's been almost
> 40 years!

Hmmmm...  Every VT100 I ever saw the inside of (not a lot, but a
bunch) had the EMI coating on the inside.  I always assumed it was
to meet FCC spurious emissions requirements.  Definitely not enough
to meet TEMPEST requirements.

bill


From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Sat May 18 14:10:46 2019
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 20:10:46 +0100
Subject: 11/93 Rebuild
Message-ID: <2e752d2e-0934-ae96-5378-3a64f1b7d82f@btinternet.com>

Hi Guys

 ?????? Well the RD53 in my 11/93 finally clapped out.

 ?????? The CPU is a late model KDJ11-E with everything on the one board.

 ?????? So its a switch from MFM to SCSI Drives.

 ?????? A CQD220A will drive the hard disk and the RQDX3 will stay to 
look after the RX50

 ?????? I've? put the Hard Drive on the primary CSR address (17772150) 
and I will shift the RQDX3 to an alternate CSR

 ?????? Comments as to if this is the right way round and what CSR's to 
use for the two controllers invited.

 ????? Rod


-- 



From couryhouse at aol.com  Sat May 18 15:32:27 2019
From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE)
Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 20:32:27 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: HP-01 calc  watch  go withs - brochures,  t- shirts, booklets,  ad
 copy  who  else collecting?
References: <254279711.2098932.1558211547933.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <254279711.2098932.1558211547933@mail.yahoo.com>

HP-01 calc watch go-withs - brochures, t- shirts, booklets, ad copy who else collecting? 

We have a? ?few? ?spare? ?items? ? has? anyone? put? together? a? checklist? of? ?go-withs?
Apparently? there? was a? ?series? of? ?picnics and? t-shits? that? came? form those? events.

Drop? ? us? a? note? off list --? 
 ?Thanks? Ed# 
(Fondly? remembering the? days? ?Jerry and? I? would? shake? our? HP-01s? at? each other at? ?3000? meetings...)

From wrcooke at wrcooke.net  Sat May 18 18:44:31 2019
From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net)
Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 18:44:31 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: HP-01 calc watch go withs - brochures, t- shirts, booklets, ad
 copy who else collecting?
In-Reply-To: <254279711.2098932.1558211547933@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <254279711.2098932.1558211547933.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <254279711.2098932.1558211547933@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1888941009.217072.1558223071886@email.ionos.com>


> On May 18, 2019 at 3:32 PM ED SHARPE via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> ?a? ?series? of? ?picnics and? t-shits


I find you those often come as a set


"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." --? Antoine de Saint-Exupery


"The names of global variables should start with? ? // "? --?https://isocpp.org

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sat May 18 21:03:59 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 19:03:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: HP-01 calc  watch  go withs - brochures,  t- shirts, booklets,
 ad copy  who  else collecting?
In-Reply-To: <254279711.2098932.1558211547933@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <254279711.2098932.1558211547933.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <254279711.2098932.1558211547933@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905181901370.5735@shell.lmi.net>

t-shits form those picnic events.


On Sat, 18 May 2019, ED SHATTNER via cctalk wrote:
> HP-01 calc watch go-withs - brochures, t- shirts, booklets, ad copy who 
> else collecting?
> We have a? ?few? ?spare? ?items? ? has? anyone? put? 
> together? a? checklist? of? ?go-withs?
> Apparently? there? was a? ?series? of? ?picnics and? t-shits? 
> that? came? form those? events.
>
> Drop? ? us? a? note? off list --?
> ?Thanks? Ed#
> (Fondly? remembering the? days? ?Jerry and? I? would? shake? our? HP-01s? at? each other at? ?3000? meetings...)

From Mark at misty.com  Sat May 18 21:26:01 2019
From: Mark at misty.com (Mark G Thomas)
Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 22:26:01 -0400
Subject: 11/93 Rebuild
In-Reply-To: <2e752d2e-0934-ae96-5378-3a64f1b7d82f@btinternet.com>
References: <2e752d2e-0934-ae96-5378-3a64f1b7d82f@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <11A0D1C6-9B11-4AD4-91C5-70810E1C630B@misty.com>

Rod, others,

I have so far been unsuccessful getting my CQD220A for SCSI HD, and RQDX3 for floppy to coexist in an 11/83, at least with bsd2.11.  I am eager to hear whether you get both controllers working in the same box, and how.

Mark

Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE

> On May 18, 2019, at 15:10, Rod Smallwood via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi Guys
> 
>        Well the RD53 in my 11/93 finally clapped out.
> 
>        The CPU is a late model KDJ11-E with everything on the one board.
> 
>        So its a switch from MFM to SCSI Drives.
> 
>        A CQD220A will drive the hard disk and the RQDX3 will stay to look after the RX50
> 
>        I've  put the Hard Drive on the primary CSR address (17772150) and I will shift the RQDX3 to an alternate CSR
> 
>        Comments as to if this is the right way round and what CSR's to use for the two controllers invited.
> 
>       Rod
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> 


From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Sat May 18 22:08:47 2019
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 22:08:47 -0500
Subject: apollo psa test point adaptor
Message-ID: <CAA3rs22yBQep3_z5U+40Nm=34nni5w9vu-aHB8m29nw2WqDU2w@mail.gmail.com>

anyone know where i could find manual or drawings on this im up in northern
manitoba canada picked it up at a rr auction to experiment with as a audio
interface not sure if the jacks on the side are the weird pins nasa had or
another standard i can find?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/albums/72157705166193482

From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com  Sun May 19 00:17:03 2019
From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc)
Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 22:17:03 -0700
Subject: apollo psa test point adaptor
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs22yBQep3_z5U+40Nm=34nni5w9vu-aHB8m29nw2WqDU2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs22yBQep3_z5U+40Nm=34nni5w9vu-aHB8m29nw2WqDU2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <94448B1D-BD7A-4E10-8449-C256DA662E15@gmail.com>

These are sturdy and notoriously expensive aerospace grade 38999 connectors. We had to slightly machine modern 38999?s male plugs to fit in these, but by in large it still fits the modern standard. I have one of the PSA trays it connects to, trying to make it work again! Nice and noble hardware it is.
Marc

> On May 18, 2019, at 8:08 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> anyone know where i could find manual or drawings on this im up in northern
> manitoba canada picked it up at a rr auction to experiment with as a audio
> interface not sure if the jacks on the side are the weird pins nasa had or
> another standard i can find?
> 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/albums/72157705166193482

From elson at pico-systems.com  Sun May 19 09:46:00 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2019 09:46:00 -0500
Subject: apollo psa test point adaptor
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs22yBQep3_z5U+40Nm=34nni5w9vu-aHB8m29nw2WqDU2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs22yBQep3_z5U+40Nm=34nni5w9vu-aHB8m29nw2WqDU2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5CE16C28.1000505@pico-systems.com>

On 05/18/2019 10:08 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:
> anyone know where i could find manual or drawings on this im up in northern
> manitoba canada picked it up at a rr auction to experiment with as a audio
> interface not sure if the jacks on the side are the weird pins nasa had or
> another standard i can find?
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/albums/72157705166193482
>
There's a switch labeled "IRIG" which stands for Inter Range 
Instrumentation Group, and refers to a standard for 
telemetry encoding.  There is a standard for time code, a 
standard for modulating analog signas onto a bunch of FM 
carriers, and a standard for multiplexing several analog 
signals onto one FM carrier.

Apollo documents are probably VERY hard to come by these days.

Jon

From couryhouse at aol.com  Sun May 19 17:31:00 2019
From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2019 22:31:00 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: HP-01 calc  watch  go withs - brochures,  t- shirts, booklets,
 ad copy  who  else collecting?
References: <2015061453.2376899.1558305060948.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2015061453.2376899.1558305060948@mail.yahoo.com>

heh! none? ?for? ?you? ?fred

In a message dated 5/18/2019 7:04:22 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:
t-shits form those picnic events.


On Sat, 18 May 2019, ED SHATTNER via cctalk wrote:
> HP-01 calc watch go-withs - brochures, t- shirts, booklets, ad copy who 
> else collecting?
> We have a? ?few? ?spare? ?items? ? has? anyone? put? 
> together? a? checklist? of? ?go-withs?
> Apparently? there? was a? ?series? of? ?picnics and? t-shits? 
> that? came? form those? events.
>
> Drop? ? us? a? note? off list --?
> ?Thanks? Ed#
> (Fondly? remembering the? days? ?Jerry and? I? would? shake? our? HP-01s? at? each other at? ?3000? meetings...)

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun May 19 17:50:16 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2019 15:50:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: HP-01 calc  watch  go withs - brochures,  t- shirts, booklets,
 ad copy  who  else collecting?
In-Reply-To: <2015061453.2376899.1558305060948@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <2015061453.2376899.1558305060948.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2015061453.2376899.1558305060948@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905191534070.1303@shell.lmi.net>

I never had an HP-01.

But, I had several Casio CFX-40 and CFX-400 (wristwatch scientific 
calculator with "programmer" features (hexadecimal, octal, etc.)
I replaced broken case on a few, including Bob Wallace's.  Probably still 
have some.  underneath everything else.
A number of years ago (2002), Scott Mueller (author of "Reapair And 
Upgrade PC") had some extras of those that he was selling.

I have an Epson RC-20 wrist computer (Z80-like, RAM, ROM, serial port, 
touch screen)  Never imported into USA, so I had to learn to read 
some katakana.
But, the book had example programs, with Z80 mnemonics.
NO, nobody has ported CP/M to it.

There was a Seiko "smart" watch, that had a "candy-bar" keyboard.
Gave that away.

I have a Fossil watch, which runs Palm Pilot OS.  It is here and handy. 
It responded when I plugged in the charger!  I'll give it a day to see if 
it charges.

I have numerous OQO (SNAZZY! 4x5x1 inch XP computer)
MOST of the big pile of lithium batteries that I have for them will 
probably not charge.  They refuse to try if below low threshold, but 
sometimes a little jump will get them started, and charge up.


BTDTHTSFP
Been There Done That Had T-Shit Form the Picnic


On Sun, 19 May 2019, ED SHATTNER via cctalk wrote:

> heh! none?? ??for?? ??you?? ??fred
>
> In a message dated 5/18/2019 7:04:22 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:
> t-shits form those picnic events.
>
>
> On Sat, 18 May 2019, ED SHATTNER via cctalk wrote:
>> HP-01 calc watch go-withs - brochures, t- shirts, booklets, ad copy who
>> else collecting?
>> We have a?? ??few?? ??spare?? ??items?? ?? has?? anyone?? put??
>> together?? a?? checklist?? of?? ??go-withs?
>> Apparently?? there?? was a?? ??series?? of?? ??picnics and?? t-shits??
>> that?? came?? form those?? events.
>>
>> Drop?? ?? us?? a?? note?? off list --??
>> ??Thanks?? Ed#
>> (Fondly?? remembering the?? days?? ??Jerry and?? I?? would?? shake?? our?? HP-01s?? at?? each other at?? ??3000?? meetings...)
>

--
Fred Cisin                      cisin at xenosoft.com
XenoSoft                        http://www.xenosoft.com
PO Box 1236                     (510) 234-3397
Berkeley, CA 94701-1236
From couryhouse at aol.com  Sun May 19 19:36:34 2019
From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 00:36:34 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: HP-01 calc  watch  go withs - brochures,  t- shirts, booklets,
 ad copy  who  else collecting?
References: <608773993.2349050.1558312594180.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <608773993.2349050.1558312594180@mail.yahoo.com>

at the? time,? the hp-01 was? discontinued? when i? became a? dealer.? for the? calc/ hppc? ?line.? ? one? is? well? worn? and? ?could? ?be? ?sold/traded? ? the other? ?i? got? as? new? condition? and just? ?wore? to? hp 3000? conferences? etc.? and? will remain? with the museum...

Yea? might? ?be? ?fun? to look? for? some of those other? ones? ?you? mention... but the HP? ?one is? ? our? main? ? thing? we? cluster? ad? materials and go withs? around.
We? ?do? have a? ?few? ?extra? go withs? and? adverts? etc. to off? at? some? point

and? yes,? ?have the? tee shirt? from the? Corvallis? pipnic? (no misspelling)


Ed#

In a message dated 5/19/2019 3:50:27 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:
I never had an HP-01.

But, I had several Casio CFX-40 and CFX-400 (wristwatch scientific 
calculator with "programmer" features (hexadecimal, octal, etc.)
I replaced broken case on a few, including Bob Wallace's.? Probably still 
have some.? underneath everything else.
A number of years ago (2002), Scott Mueller (author of "Reapair And 
Upgrade PC") had some extras of those that he was selling.

I have an Epson RC-20 wrist computer (Z80-like, RAM, ROM, serial port, 
touch screen)? Never imported into USA, so I had to learn to read 
some katakana.
But, the book had example programs, with Z80 mnemonics.
NO, nobody has ported CP/M to it.

There was a Seiko "smart" watch, that had a "candy-bar" keyboard.
Gave that away.

I have a Fossil watch, which runs Palm Pilot OS.? It is here and handy. 
It responded when I plugged in the charger!? I'll give it a day to see if 
it charges.

I have numerous OQO (SNAZZY! 4x5x1 inch XP computer)
MOST of the big pile of lithium batteries that I have for them will 
probably not charge.? They refuse to try if below low threshold, but 
sometimes a little jump will get them started, and charge up.


BTDTHTSFP
Been There Done That Had T-Shit Form the Picnic


On Sun, 19 May 2019, ED SHATTNER via cctalk wrote:

> heh! none? ?for? ?you? ?fred
>
> In a message dated 5/18/2019 7:04:22 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:
> t-shits form those picnic events.
>
>
> On Sat, 18 May 2019, ED SHATTNER via cctalk wrote:
>> HP-01 calc watch go-withs - brochures, t- shirts, booklets, ad copy who
>> else collecting?
>> We have a? ?few? ?spare? ?items? ? has? anyone? put?
>> together? a? checklist? of? ?go-withs?
>> Apparently? there? was a? ?series? of? ?picnics and? t-shits?
>> that? came? form those? events.
>>
>> Drop? ? us? a? note? off list --?
>> ?Thanks? Ed#
>> (Fondly? remembering the? days? ?Jerry and? I? would? shake? our? HP-01s? at? each other at? ?3000? meetings...)
>

--
Fred Cisin? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? cisin at xenosoft.com
XenoSoft? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? http://www.xenosoft.com
PO Box 1236? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? (510) 234-3397
Berkeley, CA 94701-1236

From guykd at optusnet.com.au  Sun May 19 20:37:17 2019
From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 11:37:17 +1000
Subject: Tape seals?
In-Reply-To: <cbd7d2ec-1af4-8295-9e4a-092e5f033a9c@sydex.com>
References: <76896d43-d890-21eb-28fc-f8ee9c7aff81@bitsavers.org>
 <BN8PR06MB53944E84556E249AF024BB44BA040@BN8PR06MB5394.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <76896d43-d890-21eb-28fc-f8ee9c7aff81@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190520113717.00e18dc8@mail.optusnet.com.au>

At 09:36 AM 18/05/2019 -0700, Chuck wrote:
>There may be better solutions, but I haven't come up with one yet.  It's
>a bit funny; I can remember when the tape seal adoption was causing
>dumpster-loads of hard plastic tape cases to be scrapped.  The cases
>that remain tend to be intact, even after 50 years.

Just a thought - I buy small ziplock bags of various sizes in bulk from Aliexpress. Very cheap.
I use them around the workshop, electronics, and for filing B5-sized documents in storage cubes.

It seems likely there would be ziplock bags that fit tape reels. With a choice of light or
heavy duty film thickness.

Pros:
 * Keep dust, moisture and pests away from the tape.
 * Cheap and always available.
 * Takes up no significant extra space.
 * Allows inclusion of things like information sheets, keeping them associated with specific tapes.
 * Can put big labels on the bags.

Cons:
 * Not as neat as ring seals.
 * Doesn't allow hanging.
 * Bags provide no support for the reel edges though, so you'd have to be careful with stacking.

Guy


From cclist at sydex.com  Sun May 19 22:04:11 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2019 20:04:11 -0700
Subject: Tape seals?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190520113717.00e18dc8@mail.optusnet.com.au>
References: <76896d43-d890-21eb-28fc-f8ee9c7aff81@bitsavers.org>
 <BN8PR06MB53944E84556E249AF024BB44BA040@BN8PR06MB5394.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
 <76896d43-d890-21eb-28fc-f8ee9c7aff81@bitsavers.org>
 <3.0.6.32.20190520113717.00e18dc8@mail.optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <d9b21f7e-0b27-c473-4119-46f7d1a87f92@sydex.com>

On 5/19/19 6:37 PM, Guy Dunphy wrote:

> Just a thought - I buy small ziplock bags of various sizes in bulk from Aliexpress. Very cheap.
> I use them around the workshop, electronics, and for filing B5-sized documents in storage cubes.
> 
> It seems likely there would be ziplock bags that fit tape reels. With a choice of light or
> heavy duty film thickness.
> 
> Pros:
>  * Keep dust, moisture and pests away from the tape.
>  * Cheap and always available.
>  * Takes up no significant extra space.
>  * Allows inclusion of things like information sheets, keeping them associated with specific tapes.
>  * Can put big labels on the bags.
> 
> Cons:
>  * Not as neat as ring seals.
>  * Doesn't allow hanging.

A lot of what I'm given to process are reels from the 1960s and 1970s.
Many, by the time they reach me, have suffered some reel damage.
Plastic gets brittle with age and tossing 30 tapes in a box and shipping
them ground certainly doesn't help!  You try to tell the customer to
ship the tapes in no more than about 10 to a box (25 lbs), but the guys
in the shipping department figure that if double-walled big boxes work,
then they'll just fill them up and toss in some bubble wrap...

Sometimes, just removing the broken off sections is sufficient if
they're small, but I've had to resort to using solvent cement to stick
bits of reels back together sufficiently to mount the reel (I use MEK,
but keep a separator between the reel flange and tape until the stuff
dries).  I've even had a couple of two-part reels come apart.  Ziploc
freezer bags in the one and two-gallon size are supermarket items here,
but they just don't offer enough protection.

Thanks for the idea, though!
--Chuck


From vintagecomputersmn at gmail.com  Sun May 19 22:05:36 2019
From: vintagecomputersmn at gmail.com (Mister PDP)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2019 22:05:36 -0500
Subject: M7264 Troubleshooting
Message-ID: <CAHnoH6xirVWW4dBAv5RKWXrVQx6oq_fU=_tW81-SvC+Oo8DZCw@mail.gmail.com>

This is a continuation of my post from about a week and a half ago. The
weekend I had some free time, so I returned, armed with a oscilloscope and
logic analyzer, to try and figure out what is wrong with my H11A. At first,
I tried to use the logic analyzer to confirm that the four clock signals on
the MCP-1600 chipset were working properly. After a day of confusing and
mixed up signals (I don't really use this type of equipment very often), I
realized that my logic analyzer was picking up the signals incorrectly. I
switched over to the oscilloscope and was able to see that the very basics
of the CPU were working. After that, I decided to try and find out why the
Run/Halt light was not coming on when I hit the switch. Looking at the H11
schematics, the light relies on the SRUN signal coming off of the
backplane. The problem I am currently facing is I cannot find where the CPU
board generates the SRUN signal. If anyone who is more experienced that me
knows how the M7264 generates the SRUN signal, that would be wonderful.

Thank You, Gavin

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Sun May 19 23:09:15 2019
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2019 21:09:15 -0700
Subject: M7264 Troubleshooting
In-Reply-To: <CAHnoH6xirVWW4dBAv5RKWXrVQx6oq_fU=_tW81-SvC+Oo8DZCw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHnoH6xirVWW4dBAv5RKWXrVQx6oq_fU=_tW81-SvC+Oo8DZCw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwKvspDG3z4L-abmZtFs8aAJht6ZoPkCmqMBjA1azXnDHA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 8:05 PM Mister PDP via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> After that, I decided to try and find out why the
> Run/Halt light was not coming on when I hit the switch. Looking at the H11
> schematics, the light relies on the SRUN signal coming off of the
> backplane. The problem I am currently facing is I cannot find where the CPU
> board generates the SRUN signal. If anyone who is more experienced that me
> knows how the M7264 generates the SRUN signal, that would be wonderful.

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1103/1103_Schematics.pdf

Page 27 of the PDF, LSI-11 CPU MODULE (K8) schematic
Grid position B1, the SRUN L signal is driven on to the backplane bus line AF1.

I have no idea how the logic works on the M7264 module that drives that signal.

From bhilpert at shaw.ca  Mon May 20 01:48:37 2019
From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2019 23:48:37 -0700
Subject: M7264 Troubleshooting
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwKvspDG3z4L-abmZtFs8aAJht6ZoPkCmqMBjA1azXnDHA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHnoH6xirVWW4dBAv5RKWXrVQx6oq_fU=_tW81-SvC+Oo8DZCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwKvspDG3z4L-abmZtFs8aAJht6ZoPkCmqMBjA1azXnDHA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8B98EFB8-2627-4230-84D1-64434CD88422@shaw.ca>

On 2019-May-19, at 9:09 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote:
> On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 8:05 PM Mister PDP via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> 
>> After that, I decided to try and find out why the
>> Run/Halt light was not coming on when I hit the switch. Looking at the H11
>> schematics, the light relies on the SRUN signal coming off of the
>> backplane. The problem I am currently facing is I cannot find where the CPU
>> board generates the SRUN signal. If anyone who is more experienced that me
>> knows how the M7264 generates the SRUN signal, that would be wonderful.
> 
> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1103/1103_Schematics.pdf
> 
> Page 27 of the PDF, LSI-11 CPU MODULE (K8) schematic
> Grid position B1, the SRUN L signal is driven on to the backplane bus line AF1.
> 
> I have no idea how the logic works on the M7264 module that drives that signal.



It looks like the CPU chipset is putting a binary 'state action code' onto the
WMIB 18-21 lines (sources on page K2) during clock phase 3 (PH 3 H at gate E45.10).

The action code is decoded to 1 of 8 actions by E68.

Most of the states are latched by the subsequent flip-flops,
and those states are cleared or set by the action codes.

Except the SRUN (K8 SRUN L) action is not latched, so it probably appears as an
active-low heartbeat pulse with some periodicity when the processor is in run mode.
A low-going pulse during PH 3 every instruction cycle perhaps.


From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch  Mon May 20 01:57:44 2019
From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 08:57:44 +0200
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <687d16df-68fc-cc8d-0de9-327d58ddf01d@greenmail.ch>
References: <687d16df-68fc-cc8d-0de9-327d58ddf01d@greenmail.ch>
Message-ID: <d62d17c6-e551-cbd8-033c-902061119d90@greenmail.ch>

On 06.04.19 16:04, jos via cctalk wrote:
> 
> The seller clearly has no idea, but the starting price is right !
> 
> https://www.ebay.de/itm/seltene-Anlage-Puma-Computer-IBM-2020/202646831828?hash=item2f2eb142d4:g:izoAAOSwhV1cpw
> 
> 
> 
> Jos
> 
> 


And so the story continues....

https://ibms360.co.uk/

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Mon May 20 02:11:31 2019
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 00:11:31 -0700
Subject: M7264 Troubleshooting
In-Reply-To: <8B98EFB8-2627-4230-84D1-64434CD88422@shaw.ca>
References: <CAHnoH6xirVWW4dBAv5RKWXrVQx6oq_fU=_tW81-SvC+Oo8DZCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwKvspDG3z4L-abmZtFs8aAJht6ZoPkCmqMBjA1azXnDHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <8B98EFB8-2627-4230-84D1-64434CD88422@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwJh2Mw3s9Si4W9SkEFJnYekDBaapN-mEwegeisA6zRrnA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 11:48 PM Brent Hilpert via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Except the SRUN (K8 SRUN L) action is not latched, so it probably appears as an
> active-low heartbeat pulse with some periodicity when the processor is in run mode.
> A low-going pulse during PH 3 every instruction cycle perhaps.

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1103/1103_Schematics.pdf

Page 171 of the PDF, Lights & Switches Board schematic

The SRUN L signal (routed from the backplane through the power supply)
is fed through a 74123  retriggerable monostable multivibrator
one-shot before driving the RUN LED. If the SRUN signal is a pulsing,
the LED might effectively be driven constantly on.

I don't have the H11 schematic. It's front panel might have similar
logic driving the RUN LED.

From bhilpert at shaw.ca  Mon May 20 03:05:22 2019
From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 01:05:22 -0700
Subject: M7264 Troubleshooting
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwJh2Mw3s9Si4W9SkEFJnYekDBaapN-mEwegeisA6zRrnA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHnoH6xirVWW4dBAv5RKWXrVQx6oq_fU=_tW81-SvC+Oo8DZCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwKvspDG3z4L-abmZtFs8aAJht6ZoPkCmqMBjA1azXnDHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <8B98EFB8-2627-4230-84D1-64434CD88422@shaw.ca>
 <CAM2UOwJh2Mw3s9Si4W9SkEFJnYekDBaapN-mEwegeisA6zRrnA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51081EF7-45D6-40C6-A9BD-3A77573670FC@shaw.ca>

On 2019-May-20, at 12:11 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote:
> On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 11:48 PM Brent Hilpert via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Except the SRUN (K8 SRUN L) action is not latched, so it probably appears as an
>> active-low heartbeat pulse with some periodicity when the processor is in run mode.
>> A low-going pulse during PH 3 every instruction cycle perhaps.
> 
> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1103/1103_Schematics.pdf
> 
> Page 171 of the PDF, Lights & Switches Board schematic
> 
> The SRUN L signal (routed from the backplane through the power supply)
> is fed through a 74123  retriggerable monostable multivibrator
> one-shot before driving the RUN LED. If the SRUN signal is a pulsing,
> the LED might effectively be driven constantly on.
> 
> I don't have the H11 schematic. It's front panel might have similar
> logic driving the RUN LED.


Good, that makes sense together, as the duty cycle could be expected to be too low to light the LED driven directly.

TTL monostables weren't the most reliable components.


From petermallan at gmail.com  Mon May 20 05:26:44 2019
From: petermallan at gmail.com (Peter Allan)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 11:26:44 +0100
Subject: VT420 terminal screen
Message-ID: <CAJCrz56CzQFhVbCCbZVgtW0hzgAK=9LSHVisY5az6rCTk7gOYQ@mail.gmail.com>

I have a DEC VT420 terminal which works pretty well. However, I am
concerned that sometimes the characters on the screen seem to get torn
sideways and jump around a little on a timescale of less than one second.

My guess is that there is some issue with the power supply, but that is
just a guess.

Does anyone have any experience of this and know what I should look at in
order to fix it. If it never gets worse, I can live with it, but I fear
that one day it will just die.

Cheers

Peter Allan

From vintagecomputersmn at gmail.com  Mon May 20 07:33:57 2019
From: vintagecomputersmn at gmail.com (Mister PDP)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 07:33:57 -0500
Subject: M7264 Troubleshooting
In-Reply-To: <51081EF7-45D6-40C6-A9BD-3A77573670FC@shaw.ca>
References: <CAHnoH6xirVWW4dBAv5RKWXrVQx6oq_fU=_tW81-SvC+Oo8DZCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwKvspDG3z4L-abmZtFs8aAJht6ZoPkCmqMBjA1azXnDHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <8B98EFB8-2627-4230-84D1-64434CD88422@shaw.ca>
 <CAM2UOwJh2Mw3s9Si4W9SkEFJnYekDBaapN-mEwegeisA6zRrnA@mail.gmail.com>
 <51081EF7-45D6-40C6-A9BD-3A77573670FC@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <CAHnoH6yCPNxd6TRMkBs=q0MbVueEqJsZ0jm81TpL62s=_e_-WQ@mail.gmail.com>

Alright, I hooked the oscilloscope up to SRUN off of E68, and found that it
oscillates low at 58.68KHz. This oscillation is very short lived, with it
bouncing back up to high nearly instantly. Hitting the Run/Halt switch does
not have any effect on the period or amplitude of the oscillation.

On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 3:05 AM Brent Hilpert via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 2019-May-20, at 12:11 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote:
> > On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 11:48 PM Brent Hilpert via cctalk
> > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Except the SRUN (K8 SRUN L) action is not latched, so it probably
> appears as an
> >> active-low heartbeat pulse with some periodicity when the processor is
> in run mode.
> >> A low-going pulse during PH 3 every instruction cycle perhaps.
> >
> > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1103/1103_Schematics.pdf
> >
> > Page 171 of the PDF, Lights & Switches Board schematic
> >
> > The SRUN L signal (routed from the backplane through the power supply)
> > is fed through a 74123  retriggerable monostable multivibrator
> > one-shot before driving the RUN LED. If the SRUN signal is a pulsing,
> > the LED might effectively be driven constantly on.
> >
> > I don't have the H11 schematic. It's front panel might have similar
> > logic driving the RUN LED.
>
>
> Good, that makes sense together, as the duty cycle could be expected to be
> too low to light the LED driven directly.
>
> TTL monostables weren't the most reliable components.
>
>

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon May 20 09:39:00 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 10:39:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
Message-ID: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Jos Dreesen

    > And so the story continues....
    > https://ibms360.co.uk/

Wow, what a great recover, and a great site documenting it!

Renting temporary local storage was a great idea; it would have been hard
to get all that out of there on schedule any other way. (Alas, I don't
know any hauliers who can help them get it all back to the UK!)

They should have tried to get the raised floor too (I guess it wasn't
included in the sale), since i) it'll be useful if they try and get the
machine up and running, and ii) it'll probably just get scrapped. Although
there may already be raised floor where they're planning to put it.

	Noel

From pat at vax11.net  Mon May 20 10:38:48 2019
From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 11:38:48 -0400
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 10:39 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> They should have tried to get the raised floor too (I guess it wasn't
> included in the sale), since i) it'll be useful if they try and get the
> machine up and running, and ii) it'll probably just get scrapped. Although
> there may already be raised floor where they're planning to put it.
>

I guess it would look right for the era, but I'd never build a data center
with raised flooring after my experiences with them.  It's such a pain to
work with compared to a sealed concrete floor and overhead cable trays.

That said, I'd bet you can pick up raised flooring cheaply locally if you
find someone who works on commercial buildings. For that era, it's either
going to be wood or concrete core, and will cost more to get rid of than it
has in scrap value (between the dumpster rental and the injured backs
moving it).

Pat

From spacewar at gmail.com  Mon May 20 10:55:56 2019
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 09:55:56 -0600
Subject: HP-01 calc watch go withs - brochures, t- shirts, booklets, ad
 copy who else collecting?
In-Reply-To: <254279711.2098932.1558211547933@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <254279711.2098932.1558211547933.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <254279711.2098932.1558211547933@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTTNxdy+iXxBOYvFYgPfwn8T3GLMDHzs7HXFe62n5f_F9g@mail.gmail.com>

Only just within the last month I finally obtained a ROM dump from a
production HP-01, for potential use in my Nonpareil simulator. Previously I
only had the preproduction code listed in a US patent. I'm not sure when
I'll have time to actually work on the simulation, though.

My original plan had been to crack open an HP-01 module and try to read the
ROM bits optically, as Peter Monta did for the HP-35. However, that didn't
work, probably due to a passivation coating on the ROM dies.

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Mon May 20 11:10:45 2019
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 12:10:45 -0400
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+dcwN6CS-82+ennbuaocrDLoFz=Koy6=bTSNwUZQ6J5AkA@mail.gmail.com>

> I guess it would look right for the era, but I'd never build a data center
> with raised flooring after my experiences with them.  It's such a pain to
> work with compared to a sealed concrete floor and overhead cable trays.

But with a raised floor, you can whack the tile puller down in such a
way that it makes an enormously loud pop that startles everyone in the
datacenter!

I cannot imagine difficult it would be to run S/360 era cables in
overhead trays. Many are an inch or more in diameter.

--
Will

--
Will

From pat at vax11.net  Mon May 20 11:40:59 2019
From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 12:40:59 -0400
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dcwN6CS-82+ennbuaocrDLoFz=Koy6=bTSNwUZQ6J5AkA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+dcwN6CS-82+ennbuaocrDLoFz=Koy6=bTSNwUZQ6J5AkA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAADZ-4OUWJ47rch82S51zG2PK_XD-Ht5haGdEvSaVRfAne0PGw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 12:11 PM William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com>
wrote:

> > I guess it would look right for the era, but I'd never build a data
> center
> > with raised flooring after my experiences with them.  It's such a pain to
> > work with compared to a sealed concrete floor and overhead cable trays.
>
> But with a raised floor, you can whack the tile puller down in such a
> way that it makes an enormously loud pop that startles everyone in the
> datacenter!
>
>
A good data center is loud enough that no one can hear that. :)


> I cannot imagine difficult it would be to run S/360 era cables in
> overhead trays. Many are an inch or more in diameter.
>

I've run lots of (heavy) 6/4 SOOW power cord on overhead cable trays, and
it is a pain, but it's way easier than pulling up half of the tiles in a
data center to figure out where the cable you're trying to pull is tangled,
just to find it stuck barely out of reach under the middle of some
production equipment.

An acceptable compromise is something like the 6 ft raised floor they have
over at NCSA.  But the typical 12" raised floors I've had to deal with
are... unpleasant.

Pat

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon May 20 11:51:36 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 12:51:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: M7264 Troubleshooting
Message-ID: <20190520165136.A44E618C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Mister PDP


    > After a day of confusing and mixed up signals (I don't really use
    > this type of equipment very often) .. I switched over to the
    > oscilloscope 

Don't feel bad, I too prefer to rely on an oscilloscope by default; not
only does it let you see what's really happening (intermediate voltages,
noise, etc) but it's simpler, and there are less ways to get incorrent
info.

    > to confirm that the four clock signals on the MCP-1600 chipset were
    > working properly .. and was able to see that the very basics of the
    > CPU were working.

It's not necessarily good if the 4 clocks (I take it that's what the
latter refers to) are working, because if one or more of those were broken,
it's a relatively easy/simple fix, whereas if they are working, and
the CPU's still not running, it could be a failed CPU chip, and the only
fix there is to replace it.

    > the SRUN signal coming off of the backplane.

Note that SRUN isn't crucial to the machine's operation, it's just user
info. If SRUN is somehow broken on it's own (i.e. failed component
somewhere between where the CPU generates it, and the display LED) finding
and fixing that issue won't help.

Far more useful, in terms of getting the thing running, would be to know
if BSYNC on the QBUS is hopping around (as ODT tries to talk to the
console - an easy thing to check into, too). If not, that's a show-stopper
that needs to be looked into.


    > From: Glen Slick

    > the SRUN L signal is driven on to the backplane bus line AF1.

The '78-'78 "microcomputer processors" says (pg. 3-15) that on the LSI-11
it's also on CH1; just to complete the complexity, it also says (pg. 3-32)
that on the LSI-11/2 it's also on AH1!


    > From: Mister PDP

    > I hooked the oscilloscope up to SRUN off of E68, and found that it
    > oscillates low at 58.68KHz. .. Hitting the Run/Halt switch does not
    > have any effect on the period or amplitude of the oscillation.

So maybe the CPU is actually running after all? Although turning
RUN/HALT to 'HALT' should stop it - the Run light would I think go
out when ODT is running. (It certainly does on the /23.)

Can you check that BHALT on the QBUS is actually asserted (i.e. 0V)
when the switch is in HALT?

	Noel

From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Mon May 20 11:53:46 2019
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 11:53:46 -0500
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dcwN6CS-82+ennbuaocrDLoFz=Koy6=bTSNwUZQ6J5AkA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+dcwN6CS-82+ennbuaocrDLoFz=Koy6=bTSNwUZQ6J5AkA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs216=6Cip+30QyM0OsVuWV2R=5sJcDSM-Ho+bivjxQt4eA@mail.gmail.com>

anyone figured out what these were being used for in that building?

On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 11:11 AM William Donzelli via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> > I guess it would look right for the era, but I'd never build a data
> center
> > with raised flooring after my experiences with them.  It's such a pain to
> > work with compared to a sealed concrete floor and overhead cable trays.
>
> But with a raised floor, you can whack the tile puller down in such a
> way that it makes an enormously loud pop that startles everyone in the
> datacenter!
>
> I cannot imagine difficult it would be to run S/360 era cables in
> overhead trays. Many are an inch or more in diameter.
>
> --
> Will
>
> --
> Will
>

From couryhouse at aol.com  Mon May 20 12:06:58 2019
From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 17:06:58 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: HP-01 calc watch go withs - brochures, t- shirts, booklets, ad
 copy who else collecting?
References: <1455601137.2645690.1558372018639.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1455601137.2645690.1558372018639@mail.yahoo.com>

Since? we? have? nice? microscopes at? the museum? project? we? were? hired? to? photo? some IC? innards? years? back. This? ended? up? becoming? a minor obsession? for? a short? time? as? the? artwork under? various? illuminations? is? fantastic.??


One of the things? that? seemed? to show the mots? difference in? detail between layers and highs? etc... was? differential? interference contrast? (after? nomorski (sp?) ( this? was on our? Ziess Ultraphot? and? seems? to be? a Zeiss? only? ? offering.0? ?on? the? Japanese? side of? things? Nikon? had? ?Yrancion Yamamotto (sp?)? method? which? seems? ?nice? ? but? I? preferred? the? ?Nomeriski.
Using? these? ?methods? you? may be? able? to extract? more usable? detail? ?than? with traditional methods.? ?and? wow? the? color? photos? are? ?frame-able!
But? ?kinda? what? I? wanted to mention? to is? depending? on? what? era? ?the chips? were? the? over? coatings? ? seemed? to? worsen? the view? the newer the chip? or? so? I? thought at the? time.



Such? great? ?fun? to? photo? ?the? little? ic innards!? ?even? a? standard? ?illum.? ?scope? with the? vertical? episcopic? illumination? gives? ?some? ? fun? photos? too,? especially? on the? earlier? ?chips.

Don't? know? if? any? of? ?this? will help on the? HP-01? roms? but? sure? was? fun to talk about? again
ed sharpe archivist for? smecc





In a message dated 5/20/2019 9:00:09 AM US Mountain Standard Time, spacewar at gmail.com writes:
Only just within the last month I finally obtained a ROM dump from a production HP-01, for potential use in my Nonpareil simulator. Previously I only had the preproduction code listed in a US patent. I'm not sure when I'll have time to actually work on the simulation, though.
My original plan had been to crack open an HP-01 module and try to read the ROM bits optically, as Peter Monta did for the HP-35. However, that didn't work, probably due to a passivation coating on the ROM dies.

From couryhouse at aol.com  Mon May 20 12:24:41 2019
From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 17:24:41 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: HP-01 calc watch go withs - brochures, t- shirts, booklets, ad
 copy who else collecting?
References: <1616016247.2694066.1558373082001.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1616016247.2694066.1558373082001@mail.yahoo.com>

should? say
?Francion Yamamotto? ?not ?Yrancion Yamamotto? 


In a message dated 5/20/2019 10:07:04 AM US Mountain Standard Time, couryhouse at aol.com writes:
Since? we? have? nice? microscopes at? the museum? project? we? were? hired? to? photo? some IC? innards? years? back. This? ended? up? becoming? a minor obsession? for? a short? time? as? the? artwork under? various? illuminations? is? fantastic.??


One of the things? that? seemed? to show the mots? difference in? detail between layers and highs? etc... was? differential? interference contrast? (after? nomorski (sp?) ( this? was on our? Ziess Ultraphot? and? seems? to be? a Zeiss? only? ? offering.0? ?on? the? Japanese? side of? things? Nikon? had? ?Yrancion Yamamotto (sp?)? method? which? seems? ?nice? ? but? I? preferred? the? ?Nomeriski.
Using? these? ?methods? you? may be? able? to extract? more usable? detail? ?than? with traditional methods.? ?and? wow? the? color? photos? are? ?frame-able!
But? ?kinda? what? I? wanted to mention? to is? depending? on? what? era? ?the chips? were? the? over? coatings? ? seemed? to? worsen? the view? the newer the chip? or? so? I? thought at the? time.



Such? great? ?fun? to? photo? ?the? little? ic innards!? ?even? a? standard? ?illum.? ?scope? with the? vertical? episcopic? illumination? gives? ?some? ? fun? photos? too,? especially? on the? earlier? ?chips.

Don't? know? if? any? of? ?this? will help on the? HP-01? roms? but? sure? was? fun to talk about? again
ed sharpe archivist for? smecc





In a message dated 5/20/2019 9:00:09 AM US Mountain Standard Time, spacewar at gmail.com writes:
Only just within the last month I finally obtained a ROM dump from a production HP-01, for potential use in my Nonpareil simulator. Previously I only had the preproduction code listed in a US patent. I'm not sure when I'll have time to actually work on the simulation, though.
My original plan had been to crack open an HP-01 module and try to read the ROM bits optically, as Peter Monta did for the HP-35. However, that didn't work, probably due to a passivation coating on the ROM dies.

From cclist at sydex.com  Mon May 20 12:42:02 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 10:42:02 -0700
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <CAADZ-4OUWJ47rch82S51zG2PK_XD-Ht5haGdEvSaVRfAne0PGw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+dcwN6CS-82+ennbuaocrDLoFz=Koy6=bTSNwUZQ6J5AkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAADZ-4OUWJ47rch82S51zG2PK_XD-Ht5haGdEvSaVRfAne0PGw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7b6390f5-85d4-9acc-5cfd-19da4288b9af@sydex.com>

The model 20 installations that I played with were mostly to supplant
unit-record gear, which typically did not use a raised floor
configuration.  Mostly the CPU, card mulcher, printer and perhaps a 2311.

The installation auctioned off is one of the larger Model 20 setups that
I've seen.

--Chuck

From anders at abc80.net  Mon May 20 03:21:02 2019
From: anders at abc80.net (Anders Sandahl)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 10:21:02 +0200
Subject: Available: Wang 370 book
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1558285200.47369.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.3.1558285200.47369.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <78823b8447341c7428bdcc76935e013d.squirrel@webmail.sadata.se>

Hi,

I got a stash of documentation yesterday. Found a book "WANG 370
calculating system, program library volume 1" which I don't have any use
for. Looks to be almost unread, it has become a bit yellow and it has a
small sticker on the front page. Printed in 1968.

Is there anybody that want's it (free pickup in south Sweden or for
postage fee)?

/Anders


From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk  Mon May 20 15:30:18 2019
From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 21:30:18 +0100
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <7b6390f5-85d4-9acc-5cfd-19da4288b9af@sydex.com>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+dcwN6CS-82+ennbuaocrDLoFz=Koy6=bTSNwUZQ6J5AkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAADZ-4OUWJ47rch82S51zG2PK_XD-Ht5haGdEvSaVRfAne0PGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7b6390f5-85d4-9acc-5cfd-19da4288b9af@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <516381d9-f357-6343-69c2-96c4b2611683@ljw.me.uk>

On 20/05/2019 18:42, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> The model 20 installations that I played with were mostly to supplant
> unit-record gear, which typically did not use a raised floor
> configuration.  Mostly the CPU, card mulcher, printer and perhaps a 2311.
>
> The installation auctioned off is one of the larger Model 20 setups that
> I've seen.
>
> --Chuck

As Adam isn't on the list, and I am one of those in that photograph...

There was one 360/20 (pink) that was cabled up with 2 x 2311 disk, 2 x 
2415 tape, 2560 MFCM and (I think) the 1403 printer. That system appears 
to have been in use at that site. The second 360/20 (blue) was not 
cabled to anything, and the 370/125 (yellow) likewise. So I expect 
neither of those was used at all.

It can't have been a serious commercial installation, but maybe it was a 
keen hobbyist who acquired the systems and decided to keep them running, 
or perhaps used as a training tool. It apparently hasn't been used for 
30+ years.

The "raised floor" was in a sorry state, the heavy units had sunk into 
the soft wood panels. I guess the framing might have been useful.

It was good that all the punch cards required seem to be there and in 
good condition: the Control Program (microcode) cards for the /20, RPG, 
BAL etc. These need to be read - I know there are services that will 
process scans, but is there anywhere (UK/Europe) that can take the 
physical cards and give us back files?

The guys did a wonderful job, especially on that last day when they 
managed to move most of the units and clear everything out. As 
mentioned, the /20 CPUs and 2415 master unit were 500-600kg each and 
about the limit of the tail-lift.

If anything I've written here is contradicted by anything in the blog, 
believe the blog! https://ibms360.co.uk

-- 
Lawrence Wilkinson                                 lawrence at ljw.me.uk
The IBM 360/30 page                       http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360


From pat at vax11.net  Mon May 20 15:40:55 2019
From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 16:40:55 -0400
Subject: Things to do in Australia & New Zealand?
Message-ID: <CAADZ-4OBPKpiXQQm2E5UAhC_Mr5N87ODjUexc52VX7puf7wCGA@mail.gmail.com>

I'm going to be in Australia and then New Zealand for most of June, and was
wondering if there was anything interesting classic computer wise to visit?
I'm planning on being in Sydney for the Australia half of the trip, and
haven't made many plans for New Zealand yet besides flying in/out of
Auckland.

Pat

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Mon May 20 16:00:01 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 15:00:01 -0600
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dcwN6CS-82+ennbuaocrDLoFz=Koy6=bTSNwUZQ6J5AkA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+dcwN6CS-82+ennbuaocrDLoFz=Koy6=bTSNwUZQ6J5AkA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b9e265e2-d9dd-0200-bce3-df5c199b5853@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 5/20/19 10:10 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:
> I cannot imagine (how) difficult it would be to run S/360 era cables in 
> overhead trays. Many are an inch or more in diameter.

I think it would be quite annoying to get cables from floor level up to 
the overhead cable trays.  Especially from all the equipment designed 
for / assuming that cables went down below a raised floor.

Not the least of which would be burning (I'm guessing at least) 6' of 
cable on each end.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Mon May 20 16:03:08 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 15:03:08 -0600
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <CAADZ-4OUWJ47rch82S51zG2PK_XD-Ht5haGdEvSaVRfAne0PGw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+dcwN6CS-82+ennbuaocrDLoFz=Koy6=bTSNwUZQ6J5AkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAADZ-4OUWJ47rch82S51zG2PK_XD-Ht5haGdEvSaVRfAne0PGw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <680b47f3-6526-a8dd-94bf-90ff657a62a5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 5/20/19 10:40 AM, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk wrote:
> An acceptable compromise is something like the 6 ft raised floor they 
> have over at NCSA.

I've often wondered why more people don't do raised floors high enough 
to walk under.

I guess they are trying to put it in one room and not have two separated 
room stacked.

There's also the fact that having an open tile on a 6' (or taller) 
raised floor is considerably more dangerous than something much shorter.

> But the typical 12" raised floors I've had to deal with are... unpleasant.

I'm used to 2' (24") raised floors.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Mon May 20 16:04:34 2019
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 16:04:34 -0500
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <680b47f3-6526-a8dd-94bf-90ff657a62a5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+dcwN6CS-82+ennbuaocrDLoFz=Koy6=bTSNwUZQ6J5AkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAADZ-4OUWJ47rch82S51zG2PK_XD-Ht5haGdEvSaVRfAne0PGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <680b47f3-6526-a8dd-94bf-90ff657a62a5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs209B7mpdMgj+qvJ4LpkfFF_eJO5N0c7LSfupSZK2WH7Ag@mail.gmail.com>

try crawling under them

On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 4:03 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 5/20/19 10:40 AM, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk wrote:
> > An acceptable compromise is something like the 6 ft raised floor they
> > have over at NCSA.
>
> I've often wondered why more people don't do raised floors high enough
> to walk under.
>
> I guess they are trying to put it in one room and not have two separated
> room stacked.
>
> There's also the fact that having an open tile on a 6' (or taller)
> raised floor is considerably more dangerous than something much shorter.
>
> > But the typical 12" raised floors I've had to deal with are...
> unpleasant.
>
> I'm used to 2' (24") raised floors.
>
>
>
> --
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die
>

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Mon May 20 16:07:16 2019
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 17:07:16 -0400
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <680b47f3-6526-a8dd-94bf-90ff657a62a5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+dcwN6CS-82+ennbuaocrDLoFz=Koy6=bTSNwUZQ6J5AkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAADZ-4OUWJ47rch82S51zG2PK_XD-Ht5haGdEvSaVRfAne0PGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <680b47f3-6526-a8dd-94bf-90ff657a62a5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <CANij+df+PGEdHc_0wz9xS57wirA88tLpT1FcSu+Tt2YkRWcfCA@mail.gmail.com>

> I'm used to 2' (24") raised floors.

I was used to 24 inch floors packed with so many dead cables they were
effectively 6 to 12 inch floors. Or worse.

--
Will

From vintagecomputersmn at gmail.com  Mon May 20 16:07:41 2019
From: vintagecomputersmn at gmail.com (Mister PDP)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 16:07:41 -0500
Subject: M7264 Troubleshooting
In-Reply-To: <20190520165136.A44E618C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190520165136.A44E618C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAHnoH6y6DB70q24SSuvxexFbgU5_YQnyByEtDbD1k7Rr5hLmJw@mail.gmail.com>

>  Can you check that BHALT on the QBUS is actually asserted (i.e. 0V)
when the switch is in HALT?

I checked the BHALT signal going into the backplane, and it seems to be in
good working order. I took a picture of the readouts for SRUN, which you
can see here:
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipOLFAH-Uip-O3LzqZKZVndV2LpGMdNjs4ndyhsKR6aZqqmXD9utlAdkReqoTJyU4A?key=RjExZHdDNC1XTUpkWFhEdU8xLW9vdXBMa2pzY1J3

Checking the BSYNC, it looks like there is life. It oscillates at 58.605
KHz, and has wider peaks than the SRUN signal. This signal does not respond
to the Run/Halt switch being toggled, but I would assume that to be normal
as I have the board jumpered to run at ODT.
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipP3G6vBu30RlZUUR6YL3Zjz_LofyJsT-k8TOSYO8ldMhkryuxSdLJ11cq0E9OWBag?key=RlF6R1lTM0ZQc2tMTmN0TnNmdlpzYnM1X1huODFn


On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 11:51 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>     > From: Mister PDP
>
>
>     > After a day of confusing and mixed up signals (I don't really use
>     > this type of equipment very often) .. I switched over to the
>     > oscilloscope
>
> Don't feel bad, I too prefer to rely on an oscilloscope by default; not
> only does it let you see what's really happening (intermediate voltages,
> noise, etc) but it's simpler, and there are less ways to get incorrent
> info.
>
>     > to confirm that the four clock signals on the MCP-1600 chipset were
>     > working properly .. and was able to see that the very basics of the
>     > CPU were working.
>
> It's not necessarily good if the 4 clocks (I take it that's what the
> latter refers to) are working, because if one or more of those were broken,
> it's a relatively easy/simple fix, whereas if they are working, and
> the CPU's still not running, it could be a failed CPU chip, and the only
> fix there is to replace it.
>
>     > the SRUN signal coming off of the backplane.
>
> Note that SRUN isn't crucial to the machine's operation, it's just user
> info. If SRUN is somehow broken on it's own (i.e. failed component
> somewhere between where the CPU generates it, and the display LED) finding
> and fixing that issue won't help.
>
> Far more useful, in terms of getting the thing running, would be to know
> if BSYNC on the QBUS is hopping around (as ODT tries to talk to the
> console - an easy thing to check into, too). If not, that's a show-stopper
> that needs to be looked into.
>
>
>     > From: Glen Slick
>
>     > the SRUN L signal is driven on to the backplane bus line AF1.
>
> The '78-'78 "microcomputer processors" says (pg. 3-15) that on the LSI-11
> it's also on CH1; just to complete the complexity, it also says (pg. 3-32)
> that on the LSI-11/2 it's also on AH1!
>
>
>     > From: Mister PDP
>
>     > I hooked the oscilloscope up to SRUN off of E68, and found that it
>     > oscillates low at 58.68KHz. .. Hitting the Run/Halt switch does not
>     > have any effect on the period or amplitude of the oscillation.
>
> So maybe the CPU is actually running after all? Although turning
> RUN/HALT to 'HALT' should stop it - the Run light would I think go
> out when ODT is running. (It certainly does on the /23.)
>
> Can you check that BHALT on the QBUS is actually asserted (i.e. 0V)
> when the switch is in HALT?
>
>         Noel
>

From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net  Mon May 20 16:21:47 2019
From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 16:21:47 -0500
Subject: Looking for my old ADM-3A
Message-ID: <1057D9A6AB9748ABAACD21491059B4AD@CharlesHPLaptop>

I used to have an ADM-3A Dumb Terminal... fixed it up, and made my own 
lower-case ROM from a 2716 EPROM and a lot of small wires.
Sold it around 2005 or so, but can't remember who bought it.

Anyway I'd like to buy it back if the current owner is out there and isn't 
using it :)
Thanks
Charles 


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


From pat at vax11.net  Mon May 20 16:21:57 2019
From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 17:21:57 -0400
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <CANij+df+PGEdHc_0wz9xS57wirA88tLpT1FcSu+Tt2YkRWcfCA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+dcwN6CS-82+ennbuaocrDLoFz=Koy6=bTSNwUZQ6J5AkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAADZ-4OUWJ47rch82S51zG2PK_XD-Ht5haGdEvSaVRfAne0PGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <680b47f3-6526-a8dd-94bf-90ff657a62a5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CANij+df+PGEdHc_0wz9xS57wirA88tLpT1FcSu+Tt2YkRWcfCA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAADZ-4MGRM8N6kxfRkacKJJmJOx0k+=aCyDa5Z891cqF_vJ9+A@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 5:07 PM William Donzelli via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> > I'm used to 2' (24") raised floors.
>
> I was used to 24 inch floors packed with so many dead cables they were
> effectively 6 to 12 inch floors. Or worse.
>

This gets at exactly the reason I dislike raised floors.... "out of sight -
out of mind".  If all of the cabling is overhead, it gets ugly when you
abandon stuff, and there's more motivation to not make it a mess.

Also, I'd rather see all of the parts, rather than have them hidden from
view.  I suppose that not everyone shares that point of view.

Pat

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Mon May 20 16:25:36 2019
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 22:25:36 +0100
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <b9e265e2-d9dd-0200-bce3-df5c199b5853@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+dcwN6CS-82+ennbuaocrDLoFz=Koy6=bTSNwUZQ6J5AkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <b9e265e2-d9dd-0200-bce3-df5c199b5853@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <0dee01d50f52$912cb9a0$b3862ce0$@gmail.com>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Grant Taylor via
> cctalk
> Sent: 20 May 2019 22:00
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....
> 
> On 5/20/19 10:10 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:
> > I cannot imagine (how) difficult it would be to run S/360 era cables
> > in overhead trays. Many are an inch or more in diameter.
> 
> I think it would be quite annoying to get cables from floor level up to the
> overhead cable trays.  Especially from all the equipment designed for /
> assuming that cables went down below a raised floor.
> 
> Not the least of which would be burning (I'm guessing at least) 6' of cable on
> each end.
> 

IBM kit is designed to fit on raised floors. There isn't much clearance between the bottom of the cabinets and the floor.
As someone has said the IBM bus and tag cables are thick and actual consist of multiple co-ax cables in big bundle .
I have run a 4361 without raised floors, but we just ran the cables round the floor.
To run in them in roof level cable trays would be challenging. You would have to run them across the floor for some distance before 
Curving them up would be challenging as the minimum bend radius is large.  

Dave

> 
> 
> --
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die


From cclist at sydex.com  Mon May 20 16:25:42 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 14:25:42 -0700
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs209B7mpdMgj+qvJ4LpkfFF_eJO5N0c7LSfupSZK2WH7Ag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+dcwN6CS-82+ennbuaocrDLoFz=Koy6=bTSNwUZQ6J5AkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAADZ-4OUWJ47rch82S51zG2PK_XD-Ht5haGdEvSaVRfAne0PGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <680b47f3-6526-a8dd-94bf-90ff657a62a5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAA3rs209B7mpdMgj+qvJ4LpkfFF_eJO5N0c7LSfupSZK2WH7Ag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ad119145-5c85-ed78-ffd0-829387b43485@sydex.com>

On 5/20/19 2:04 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:
> try crawling under them

You'd only upset the mice and the cockroaches.  I recall that back in
the day at CDC SVLOPS, the local CEs made a pet of one of the sub-floor
mice.  Field crickets were a problem back then too--the moment that the
weather turned cool, they'd invade the facility.  It was not unusual to
find a couple hiding out in one's desk drawers.

--Chuck


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Mon May 20 16:29:20 2019
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 17:29:20 -0400
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <CAADZ-4MGRM8N6kxfRkacKJJmJOx0k+=aCyDa5Z891cqF_vJ9+A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+dcwN6CS-82+ennbuaocrDLoFz=Koy6=bTSNwUZQ6J5AkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAADZ-4OUWJ47rch82S51zG2PK_XD-Ht5haGdEvSaVRfAne0PGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <680b47f3-6526-a8dd-94bf-90ff657a62a5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CANij+df+PGEdHc_0wz9xS57wirA88tLpT1FcSu+Tt2YkRWcfCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAADZ-4MGRM8N6kxfRkacKJJmJOx0k+=aCyDa5Z891cqF_vJ9+A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C04EA6D2-9728-4570-AB05-B59514D8F241@comcast.net>



> On May 20, 2019, at 5:21 PM, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 5:07 PM William Donzelli via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
>>> I'm used to 2' (24") raised floors.
>> 
>> I was used to 24 inch floors packed with so many dead cables they were
>> effectively 6 to 12 inch floors. Or worse.
>> 
> 
> This gets at exactly the reason I dislike raised floors.... "out of sight -
> out of mind".  If all of the cabling is overhead, it gets ugly when you
> abandon stuff, and there's more motivation to not make it a mess.

Perhaps, but I remember seeing overhead cable trays running down the hallways in the DEC Mill, full of ancient and obviously abandoned stuff.

> Also, I'd rather see all of the parts, rather than have them hidden from
> view.  I suppose that not everyone shares that point of view.

Raised floors often doubled as air handling space, supplying cold air for cooling the equipment.

Overhead trays work well for rack mounted equipment, where the trays hang just above the racks.  When the equipment is in cabinets of varying height, like line printers or RP06 disk drives or stuff like that, running the cable way up in the air isn't so handy.  Never mind the fact that the connectors are configured to send the cable downward to the floor, not up to the ceiling.

	paul


From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Mon May 20 16:38:50 2019
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 22:38:50 +0100
Subject: Things to do in Australia & New Zealand?
In-Reply-To: <CAADZ-4OBPKpiXQQm2E5UAhC_Mr5N87ODjUexc52VX7puf7wCGA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAADZ-4OBPKpiXQQm2E5UAhC_Mr5N87ODjUexc52VX7puf7wCGA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008001d50f54$6b236950$416a3bf0$@ntlworld.com>

Lookup Max Burnet in Sydney, well worth a visit.

Regards

Rob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Patrick Finnegan
> via cctalk
> Sent: 20 May 2019 21:41
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Things to do in Australia & New Zealand?
> 
> I'm going to be in Australia and then New Zealand for most of June, and was
> wondering if there was anything interesting classic computer wise to visit?
> I'm planning on being in Sydney for the Australia half of the trip, and haven't
> made many plans for New Zealand yet besides flying in/out of Auckland.
> 
> Pat


From guykd at optusnet.com.au  Mon May 20 19:12:44 2019
From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 10:12:44 +1000
Subject: Things to do in Australia & New Zealand?
In-Reply-To: <008001d50f54$6b236950$416a3bf0$@ntlworld.com>
References: <CAADZ-4OBPKpiXQQm2E5UAhC_Mr5N87ODjUexc52VX7puf7wCGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAADZ-4OBPKpiXQQm2E5UAhC_Mr5N87ODjUexc52VX7puf7wCGA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190521101244.011da220@mail.optusnet.com.au>

>Subject: Things to do in Australia & New Zealand?
>From: Patrick Finnegan

>I'm going to be in Australia and then New Zealand for most of June, and was
>wondering if there was anything interesting classic computer wise to visit?
>I'm planning on being in Sydney for the Australia half of the trip, and
>haven't made many plans for New Zealand yet besides flying in/out of
>Auckland.

>Pat



At 10:38 PM 20/05/2019 +0100, Rob wrote:
>Lookup Max Burnet in Sydney, well worth a visit.


Sadly, Max is very frail these days and now lives in a nursing home. He's overseeing the distribution of the contents of his personal museum to other custodians, some in Oz, some in the US. I've only met him once, recently, during an ACMS working day.

The state of classic computers perservation in Australia in general is pretty sad. Very little in the way of organised exhibition spaces. Mostly it's just motivated individuals, doing what they can with shoestrings and a spare room or two. There are some computer museum sites in Melbourne apparently, but none I'm aware of in Sydney. (Where I live.) Here even the Australian Computer Museum Society is reduced to stuffing things in shipping containers in fields on farms, and whatever cheap storage spaces they can find.

For a list of known personal collections, you could contact Tennyson Delarosa  media at acms.org.au
My own personal collection is barely worth a visit. And very 'stacked' in small spaces.

The PowerHouse Museum in the city has a section on computer history, with some nice things. But that's a tiny proportion of their overall space. Very typically of Australia, the Powerhouse Museum recently almost had their site sold out from under them by the government, to developers. That seems to have been stopped. For now.

There's the Kurrajong Radio Museum (a fair drive out to the NW) with lots of great old radio gear but not much in the computing line.

The Telstra Museum in Bankstown (quite near where I live) has lots of fine early communications-related exhibits. But near zero computing.

If anyone can think of other sites in Sydney, I'd be glad to hear of them too.

Otoh if you're interested in sightseeing, I can make you a list. Around the city and out in the countryside. 
Do you enjoy outdoors and walking? I can take you on a very nice day walk (or a few) near the city. Or further out.
Also if you are adventurous I can organise some unconventional urbex experiences.

Guy



From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Mon May 20 19:13:26 2019
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 19:13:26 -0500
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <ad119145-5c85-ed78-ffd0-829387b43485@sydex.com>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+dcwN6CS-82+ennbuaocrDLoFz=Koy6=bTSNwUZQ6J5AkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAADZ-4OUWJ47rch82S51zG2PK_XD-Ht5haGdEvSaVRfAne0PGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <680b47f3-6526-a8dd-94bf-90ff657a62a5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAA3rs209B7mpdMgj+qvJ4LpkfFF_eJO5N0c7LSfupSZK2WH7Ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <ad119145-5c85-ed78-ffd0-829387b43485@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs21t-3-HUEnyhPK__GRF-89i5-nPZUfgx-R+ZQBtXiMGYw@mail.gmail.com>

had to crawl 300feet under raised floor cause it was carpeted.... runing
48pair fiber line took a good hour and half to get it over to the room with
the rack in it from the building raise

On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 4:25 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 5/20/19 2:04 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:
> > try crawling under them
>
> You'd only upset the mice and the cockroaches.  I recall that back in
> the day at CDC SVLOPS, the local CEs made a pet of one of the sub-floor
> mice.  Field crickets were a problem back then too--the moment that the
> weather turned cool, they'd invade the facility.  It was not unusual to
> find a couple hiding out in one's desk drawers.
>
> --Chuck
>
>

From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon May 20 19:54:33 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 17:54:33 -0700
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <516381d9-f357-6343-69c2-96c4b2611683@ljw.me.uk>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+dcwN6CS-82+ennbuaocrDLoFz=Koy6=bTSNwUZQ6J5AkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAADZ-4OUWJ47rch82S51zG2PK_XD-Ht5haGdEvSaVRfAne0PGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7b6390f5-85d4-9acc-5cfd-19da4288b9af@sydex.com>
 <516381d9-f357-6343-69c2-96c4b2611683@ljw.me.uk>
Message-ID: <dca28439-4e95-40be-891b-b3c9ce162456@bitsavers.org>



On 5/20/19 1:30 PM, Lawrence Wilkinson via cctalk wrote:

> As Adam isn't on the list, and I am one of those in that photograph...

>From the pictures, it looks like the packs were left in the drives. You should pull them
and lock down the actuator arm before moving them any further.



From mtapley at swri.edu  Mon May 20 22:58:48 2019
From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 03:58:48 +0000
Subject: OT: (was: Re: Things to do in Australia & New Zealand?)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190521101244.011da220@mail.optusnet.com.au>
References: <CAADZ-4OBPKpiXQQm2E5UAhC_Mr5N87ODjUexc52VX7puf7wCGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAADZ-4OBPKpiXQQm2E5UAhC_Mr5N87ODjUexc52VX7puf7wCGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <3.0.6.32.20190521101244.011da220@mail.optusnet.com.au>
Message-ID: <D254923C-34BC-42AC-BCD6-8B0DBBFF8BB6@swri.edu>

> On May 20, 2019, at 7:12 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
>> Subject: Things to do in Australia & New Zealand?
>> From: Patrick Finnegan
> 
>> I'm going to be in Australia and then New Zealand for most of June, and was
>> wondering if there was anything interesting classic computer wise to visit?
>> I'm planning on being in Sydney for the Australia half of the trip, and
>> haven't made many plans for New Zealand yet besides flying in/out of
>> Auckland.
> 
>> Pat
> 
> 
> 
> At 10:38 PM 20/05/2019 +0100, Rob wrote:
>> Lookup Max Burnet in Sydney, well worth a visit.
> 
> 
> ...The state of classic computers perservation in Australia in general is pretty sad. Very little in the way of organised exhibition spaces. Mostly it's just motivated individuals, doing what they can with shoestrings and a spare room or two
...
> Otoh if you're interested in sightseeing, I can make you a list. Around the city and out in the countryside. 
> Do you enjoy outdoors and walking? I can take you on a very nice day walk (or a few) near the city. Or further out.
> Also if you are adventurous I can organise some unconventional urbex experiences.
> 
> Guy

Were I in Sydney, I would spend the  ~4 hours to drive to a little West of Canberra:

https://deepspace.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/
https://deepspace.jpl.nasa.gov/about/complexes/visiting/

If you happen to go, tell them the New Horizons Payload System Engineer says hello, keep up the great work, and thanks for all the bits!
				- Mark Tapley


From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com  Tue May 21 00:24:44 2019
From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 22:24:44 -0700
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <d62d17c6-e551-cbd8-033c-902061119d90@greenmail.ch>
References: <687d16df-68fc-cc8d-0de9-327d58ddf01d@greenmail.ch>
 <d62d17c6-e551-cbd8-033c-902061119d90@greenmail.ch>
Message-ID: <26CAD098-B0F6-4A74-BCB9-6478952D9884@gmail.com>

Fantastic. It fell into the right hands.

Marc

 

And so the story continues....

 

https://ibms360.co.uk/





From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com  Tue May 21 00:36:37 2019
From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 22:36:37 -0700
Subject: HP-01 calc watch go withs - brochures, t- shirts, booklets, ad
 copy who else collecting?
In-Reply-To: <1616016247.2694066.1558373082001@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1616016247.2694066.1558373082001.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1616016247.2694066.1558373082001@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <07A79CE1-3007-4C3C-A391-CD90BEB11522@gmail.com>

Nomarski microscopy, Ed. Differential phase contrast microscopy. Makes very small height differences (partial wavelength) on mostly planar objects pop out, and creates amazing color effects as a biproduct. Pretty much a stalwart of any good cleanroom microscope. Every manufacturer offers it, usually a pretty expensive option as all your optics have to be stress-free. I dream to own one of these one day. 

Marc

 

From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of "cctalk at classiccmp.org" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Reply-To: "COURYHOUSE at aol.com" <couryhouse at aol.com>, "cctalk at classiccmp.org" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Date: Monday, May 20, 2019 at 11:20 AM
To: "COURYHOUSE at aol.com" <couryhouse at aol.com>, <spacewar at gmail.com>, "cctalk at classiccmp.org" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: HP-01 calc watch go withs - brochures, t- shirts, booklets, ad copy who else collecting?

 

should  say

 Francion Yamamotto   not  Yrancion Yamamotto  

 

 

In a message dated 5/20/2019 10:07:04 AM US Mountain Standard Time, couryhouse at aol.com writes:

Since  we  have  nice  microscopes at  the museum  project  we  were  hired  to  photo  some IC  innards  years  back. This  ended  up  becoming  a minor obsession  for  a short  time  as  the  artwork under  various  illuminations  is  fantastic.  

 

 

One of the things  that  seemed  to show the mots  difference in  detail between layers and highs  etc... was  differential  interference contrast  (after  nomorski (sp?) ( this  was on our  Ziess Ultraphot  and  seems  to be  a Zeiss  only    offering.0   on  the  Japanese  side of  things  Nikon  had   Yrancion Yamamotto (sp?)  method  which  seems   nice    but  I  preferred  the   Nomeriski.

Using  these   methods  you  may be  able  to extract  more usable  detail   than  with traditional methods.   and  wow  the  color  photos  are   frame-able!

But   kinda  what  I  wanted to mention  to is  depending  on  what  era   the chips  were  the  over  coatings    seemed  to  worsen  the view  the newer the chip  or  so  I  thought at the  time.

 

 

 

Such  great   fun  to  photo   the  little  ic innards!   even  a  standard   illum.   scope  with the  vertical  episcopic  illumination  gives   some    fun  photos  too,  especially  on the  earlier   chips.

 

Don't  know  if  any  of   this  will help on the  HP-01  roms  but  sure  was  fun to talk about  again

ed sharpe archivist for  smecc

 

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 5/20/2019 9:00:09 AM US Mountain Standard Time, spacewar at gmail.com writes:

Only just within the last month I finally obtained a ROM dump from a production HP-01, for potential use in my Nonpareil simulator. Previously I only had the preproduction code listed in a US patent. I'm not sure when I'll have time to actually work on the simulation, though.

My original plan had been to crack open an HP-01 module and try to read the ROM bits optically, as Peter Monta did for the HP-35. However, that didn't work, probably due to a passivation coating on the ROM dies.

 


From carlclaunch51 at gmail.com  Mon May 20 17:38:11 2019
From: carlclaunch51 at gmail.com (Carl Claunch)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 15:38:11 -0700
Subject: apollo psa test point adaptor
Message-ID: <CABi7Mb7du0O5LTKvTUpiYQGSBvT82TGbWLiUD8q7-3c2VO5fWQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 05/19/2019 09:46 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
> There's a switch labeled "IRIG" which stands for Inter Range
> Instrumentation Group, and refers to a standard for
>   telemetry encoding.  There is a standard for time code, a
>   standard for modulating analog signas onto a bunch of FM
>   carriers, and a standard for multiplexing several analog
>   signals onto one FM carrier.

In this case IRIG stands for Inertial Reference Integrating Gyroscope, one
of three inside the Intertial Measurement Unit of the spacecraft. This
adapter is used to test the PSA tray (Power Sub Assembly) which had modules
such as the Coarse Alignment Amplifiers that were used to drive and measure
the gryos (and the accelerometers).

It also drives the sextant optics for star sighting in the CM (thus you see
the knobs labeled Sxt Shaft and Sxt Trun) Those same circutis would be used
with the Rendezvous Radar for the PSA installed in a LM.

>   Apollo documents are probably VERY hard to come by these days.

They are being rapidly and steadily digitized and made available. Many of
the PSA schematics are now accessible. The test point adapter itself is not
going to be easy to find, but you can find the wiring harness schematics
that would tell you what each of your 91 leads in the connector does.

Carl

From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com  Tue May 21 02:18:47 2019
From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 00:18:47 -0700
Subject: apollo psa test point adaptor
In-Reply-To: <5CE16C28.1000505@pico-systems.com>
References: <CAA3rs22yBQep3_z5U+40Nm=34nni5w9vu-aHB8m29nw2WqDU2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5CE16C28.1000505@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <B22F4246-9391-4337-BDD1-EAA0EB7307CD@gmail.com>

I do not think this is correct. The IRIG almost certainly refers to the Apollo Inertial Reference Integrating Gyro, which you can see in this video along with one of the PSA trays Adrian?s contraption is supposed to be testing:

https://youtu.be/lXe2OS4nwnQ

BTW I got my Apollo IRIG at the same auction that Adrian got the Apollo PSA tester from. 

Marc

 

From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of "cctalk at classiccmp.org" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Reply-To: Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com>, "cctalk at classiccmp.org" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Date: Sunday, May 19, 2019 at 7:46 AM
To: Adrian Stoness <tdk.knight at gmail.com>, <General at ezwind.net>, "cctalk at classiccmp.org" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: apollo psa test point adaptor

 

On 05/18/2019 10:08 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:

anyone know where i could find manual or drawings on this im up in northern

manitoba canada picked it up at a rr auction to experiment with as a audio

interface not sure if the jacks on the side are the weird pins nasa had or

another standard i can find?

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/albums/72157705166193482

 

There's a switch labeled "IRIG" which stands for Inter Range 

Instrumentation Group, and refers to a standard for 

telemetry encoding.  There is a standard for time code, a 

standard for modulating analog signas onto a bunch of FM 

carriers, and a standard for multiplexing several analog 

signals onto one FM carrier.

 

Apollo documents are probably VERY hard to come by these days.

 

Jon

 


From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Tue May 21 03:04:15 2019
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 10:04:15 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <516381d9-f357-6343-69c2-96c4b2611683@ljw.me.uk>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+dcwN6CS-82+ennbuaocrDLoFz=Koy6=bTSNwUZQ6J5AkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAADZ-4OUWJ47rch82S51zG2PK_XD-Ht5haGdEvSaVRfAne0PGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7b6390f5-85d4-9acc-5cfd-19da4288b9af@sydex.com>
 <516381d9-f357-6343-69c2-96c4b2611683@ljw.me.uk>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905210939470.1214@linuxserv.home>

First, congratulations from us :-)

Reading your blog, I'm glad that we did not win the auction. We simply do 
not have the time and space (and money) to handle this, especially the 
effort needed to get everything out of the house. I and Klemens both have 
jobs that require us to do other things besides the museum ;-)

On Mon, 20 May 2019, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote:
> There was one 360/20 (pink) that was cabled up with 2 x 2311 disk, 2 x 2415 
> tape, 2560 MFCM and (I think) the 1403 printer. That system appears to have 
> been in use at that site. The second 360/20 (blue) was not cabled to 
> anything, and the 370/125 (yellow) likewise. So I expect neither of those was 
> used at all.

Am I right that the 370/125 is missing something? At least there is 
one yellow unit that is lacking the top half (or whatever).

> These need to be read - I know there are services that will process scans, 
> but is there anywhere (UK/Europe) that can take the physical cards and give 
> us back files?

Yes, we can (located in Stuttgart, not too far from Nuremburg). We've done 
that with all cards that we got. Our setup uses the 1442 card reader on 
the 1130 and a program that reads the cards and sends them via V.24 (with 
a home-made tape punch interface to V.24 converter) to be captured by a 
UNIX machine.

> The guys did a wonderful job, especially on that last day when they managed 
> to move most of the units and clear everything out. As mentioned, the /20 
> CPUs and 2415 master unit were 500-600kg each and about the limit of the 
> tail-lift.

I'm curious, did everything fit in a normal 7.5t truck or how do you move 
all the stuff to the UK?

Christian

From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Tue May 21 03:13:19 2019
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 10:13:19 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905211006190.1214@linuxserv.home>

On Mon, 20 May 2019, Patrick Finnegan wrote:
> I guess it would look right for the era, but I'd never build a data center
> with raised flooring after my experiences with them.  It's such a pain to
> work with compared to a sealed concrete floor and overhead cable trays.

My experience is that overhead trays are not better. We have rooms with 
only raised floors, and one with both. You definitely need a raised floor 
for a data center. You need it for forced air cooling and for running the 
water and condensate pipes. And overhead trays are much more difficult to 
work with if you want to lay new cables because you have to climb up and 
down the ladder all the time, moving the ladder from here to there and 
back to here...

Christian

From couryhouse at aol.com  Tue May 21 05:24:29 2019
From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 10:24:29 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: HP-01 calc watch go withs - brochures, t- shirts, booklets,
 ad copy who else collecting?
References: <998199242.2150970.1558434269956.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <998199242.2150970.1558434269956@mail.yahoo.com>

OK ?Marc.. guess, ?patent ran out. this was eons ago I was involved initally... ?so thus my dated ?"who had and not ?list"... remember the leitz episcopic.. ? phase contrast? system... ighhh...!, ?have,an otholux set up like that... another fun one is the Wild m20 ?with episcopic... bright field AND darkfield.

Marc .. yes... as u said....Nomarski microscopy, is Differential phase contrast microscopy. Makes very small height differences (partial wavelength) on mostly planar objects pop out, and creates amazing color effect.... ?the francon yamotto method seems simular in images,and colors...
?

-----Original Message-----
From: Curious Marc <curiousmarc3 at gmail.com>
To: COURYHOUSE at aol.com <couryhouse at aol.com>; cctalk at classiccmp.org <cctalk at classiccmp.org>; spacewar <spacewar at gmail.com>
Sent: Mon, May 20, 2019 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: HP-01 calc watch go withs - brochures, t- shirts, booklets, ad copy who else collecting?


#yiv6703816687 #yiv6703816687 -- _filtered #yiv6703816687 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv6703816687 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} #yiv6703816687 #yiv6703816687 p.yiv6703816687MsoNormal, #yiv6703816687 li.yiv6703816687MsoNormal, #yiv6703816687 div.yiv6703816687MsoNormal {margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;} #yiv6703816687 a:link, #yiv6703816687 span.yiv6703816687MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv6703816687 a:visited, #yiv6703816687 span.yiv6703816687MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv6703816687 p.yiv6703816687msonormal0, #yiv6703816687 li.yiv6703816687msonormal0, #yiv6703816687 div.yiv6703816687msonormal0 {margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;} #yiv6703816687 span.yiv6703816687EmailStyle18 {font-family:sans-serif;color:windowtext;} #yiv6703816687 .yiv6703816687MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv6703816687 {margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} #yiv6703816687 div.yiv6703816687WordSection1 {} #yiv6703816687 
Nomarski microscopy, Ed. Differential phase contrast microscopy. Makes very small height differences (partial wavelength) on mostly planar objects pop out, and creates amazing color effects as a biproduct. Pretty much a stalwart of any good cleanroom microscope. Every manufacturer offers it, usually a pretty expensive option as all your optics have to be stress-free. I dream to own one of these one day. 

Marc

 ?

From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of "cctalk at classiccmp.org" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Reply-To: "COURYHOUSE at aol.com" <couryhouse at aol.com>, "cctalk at classiccmp.org" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Date: Monday, May 20, 2019 at 11:20 AM
To: "COURYHOUSE at aol.com" <couryhouse at aol.com>, <spacewar at gmail.com>, "cctalk at classiccmp.org" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: HP-01 calc watch go withs - brochures, t- shirts, booklets, ad copy who else collecting?

 ?

should? say

?Francion Yamamotto? ?not ?Yrancion Yamamotto? 

 ?

 ?

In a message dated 5/20/2019 10:07:04 AM US Mountain Standard Time, couryhouse at aol.com writes:

Since? we? have? nice? microscopes at? the museum? project? we? were? hired? to? photo? some IC? innards? years? back. This? ended? up? becoming? a minor obsession? for? a short? time? as? the? artwork under? various? illuminations? is? fantastic.??

 ?

 ?

One of the things? that? seemed? to show the mots? difference in? detail between layers and highs? etc... was? differential? interference contrast? (after? nomorski (sp?) ( this? was on our? Ziess Ultraphot? and? seems? to be? a Zeiss? only? ? offering.0? ?on? the? Japanese? side of? things? Nikon? had? ?Yrancion Yamamotto (sp?)? method? which? seems? ?nice? ? but? I? preferred? the? ?Nomeriski.

Using? these? ?methods? you? may be? able? to extract? more usable? detail? ?than? with traditional methods.? ?and? wow? the? color? photos? are? ?frame-able!

But? ?kinda? what? I? wanted to mention? to is? depending? on? what? era? ?the chips? were? the? over? coatings? ? seemed? to? worsen? the view? the newer the chip? or? so? I? thought at the? time.

 ?

 ?

 ?

Such? great? ?fun? to? photo? ?the? little? ic innards!? ?even? a? standard? ?illum.? ?scope? with the? vertical? episcopic? illumination? gives? ?some? ? fun? photos? too,? especially? on the? earlier? ?chips.

 ?

Don't? know? if? any? of? ?this? will help on the? HP-01? roms? but? sure? was? fun to talk about? again

ed sharpe archivist for? smecc

 ?

 ?

 ?

 ?

 ?

In a message dated 5/20/2019 9:00:09 AM US Mountain Standard Time, spacewar at gmail.com writes:

Only just within the last month I finally obtained a ROM dump from a production HP-01, for potential use in my Nonpareil simulator. Previously I only had the preproduction code listed in a US patent. I'm not sure when I'll have time to actually work on the simulation, though.

My original plan had been to crack open an HP-01 module and try to read the ROM bits optically, as Peter Monta did for the HP-35. However, that didn't work, probably due to a passivation coating on the ROM dies.

 ?

From lproven at gmail.com  Tue May 21 05:26:33 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 12:26:33 +0200
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs216=6Cip+30QyM0OsVuWV2R=5sJcDSM-Ho+bivjxQt4eA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+dcwN6CS-82+ennbuaocrDLoFz=Koy6=bTSNwUZQ6J5AkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs216=6Cip+30QyM0OsVuWV2R=5sJcDSM-Ho+bivjxQt4eA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFY+=qcpHXWrP4tmRg-1JcRv_RvYEvy4aBqZo1Q2F2z5g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, 20 May 2019 at 23:10, Adrian Stoness via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> anyone figured out what these were being used for in that building?

Puma, the sportswear company, I think. Related to Adidas -- I believe
the companies were run by 2 brothers who fell out.

Puma was founded in Nuremberg. You can see Puma's logo in some of the
photos and it was mentioned in the eBay ad.

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Tue May 21 08:18:34 2019
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 09:18:34 -0400
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFY+=qcpHXWrP4tmRg-1JcRv_RvYEvy4aBqZo1Q2F2z5g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+dcwN6CS-82+ennbuaocrDLoFz=Koy6=bTSNwUZQ6J5AkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs216=6Cip+30QyM0OsVuWV2R=5sJcDSM-Ho+bivjxQt4eA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFY+=qcpHXWrP4tmRg-1JcRv_RvYEvy4aBqZo1Q2F2z5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+dfO7X22Vwb7o_aMF6rHQBDH43uWRNGaejGSqDi7pPAcHA@mail.gmail.com>

The logo is sort of wrong for the era. I think it is just a sticker
that was applied.

And I do not think Puma would have been running on just a model 20,
and especially in such an "interesting" datacenter. By the 60s, they
were already a good sized company.

--
Will

On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 6:26 AM Liam Proven via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 20 May 2019 at 23:10, Adrian Stoness via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > anyone figured out what these were being used for in that building?
>
> Puma, the sportswear company, I think. Related to Adidas -- I believe
> the companies were run by 2 brothers who fell out.
>
> Puma was founded in Nuremberg. You can see Puma's logo in some of the
> photos and it was mentioned in the eBay ad.
>
> --
> Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
> Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
> Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
> UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From elson at pico-systems.com  Tue May 21 09:50:05 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 09:50:05 -0500
Subject: apollo psa test point adaptor
In-Reply-To: <CABi7Mb7du0O5LTKvTUpiYQGSBvT82TGbWLiUD8q7-3c2VO5fWQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABi7Mb7du0O5LTKvTUpiYQGSBvT82TGbWLiUD8q7-3c2VO5fWQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5CE4101D.5000302@pico-systems.com>

On 05/20/2019 05:38 PM, Carl Claunch via cctalk wrote:
> On 05/19/2019 09:46 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
>> There's a switch labeled "IRIG" which stands for Inter Range
>> Instrumentation Group, and refers to a standard for
>>    telemetry encoding.  There is a standard for time code, a
>>    standard for modulating analog signas onto a bunch of FM
>>    carriers, and a standard for multiplexing several analog
>>    signals onto one FM carrier.
> In this case IRIG stands for Inertial Reference Integrating Gyroscope, one
> of three inside the Intertial Measurement Unit of the spacecraft.
Good GRIEF!  Clashing acronyms.  And, NASA certainly knew 
about the other IRIG, as they used IRIG standards on a lot 
of telemetry and radar systems.

Jon

From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net  Tue May 21 09:51:59 2019
From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 10:51:59 -0400
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs21t-3-HUEnyhPK__GRF-89i5-nPZUfgx-R+ZQBtXiMGYw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+dcwN6CS-82+ennbuaocrDLoFz=Koy6=bTSNwUZQ6J5AkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAADZ-4OUWJ47rch82S51zG2PK_XD-Ht5haGdEvSaVRfAne0PGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <680b47f3-6526-a8dd-94bf-90ff657a62a5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAA3rs209B7mpdMgj+qvJ4LpkfFF_eJO5N0c7LSfupSZK2WH7Ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <ad119145-5c85-ed78-ffd0-829387b43485@sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs21t-3-HUEnyhPK__GRF-89i5-nPZUfgx-R+ZQBtXiMGYw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0dc101d50fe4$be9f2ac0$3bdd8040$@verizon.net>

Adrian Stoness wrote:
> had to crawl 300feet under raised floor cause it was carpeted.... runing
> 48pair fiber line took a good hour and half to get it over to the room with
> the rack in it from the building raise

When I interned with the Social Security Administration, I was tasked with
crawling under the raised floor, pulling cable.  As well as the various scenery
already mentioned by others, I came up at the other end with several dozen
9-track tape write rings.  I stuck them on my (then skinny) arms as I crawled,
The older guys, waiting at the other end, laughed and told me stories of the
write ring battles that went on "back in the day".

Bill S.



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


From tsraguso at gmail.com  Tue May 21 09:55:27 2019
From: tsraguso at gmail.com (Thomas Raguso)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 09:55:27 -0500
Subject: PDP-11 Rack For Sale
Message-ID: <CAAQeJU4N7KcWKStQxsGNZKoBhZ16pYepf7gwoE8OLLtkz-KdDA@mail.gmail.com>

I have an empty PDP-11 rack that must be gone by Thursday, 5/30. I am
asking $90 OBO. I also have a UNIBUS SMD disk controller (asking 150). I
will ship the controller, but not the rack.

I am located in Houston, TX.

Thomas Raguso
832 374-2803

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Tue May 21 10:52:19 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 09:52:19 -0600
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905211006190.1214@linuxserv.home>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905211006190.1214@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <7a6516c1-bf0d-4716-9f96-31cbca1e4fd9@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 5/21/19 2:13 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:
> You definitely need a raised floor for a data center.
I think Google and their YAWNs will disagree with you on an actual 
/need/ for a raised floor in a data center.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From useddec at gmail.com  Tue May 21 11:28:53 2019
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 11:28:53 -0500
Subject: PDP-11 Rack
Message-ID: <CACwhfuPqUJv0nCL6LzdF7SWSPKxwXYpf_PR-uD9aHZFZbvQmcg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Thomas,

I tried to call but couldn't reach you.  I think I can have it picked up
before then, but have a few questions.

Thanks, Paul
217
766
7690

From pat at vax11.net  Tue May 21 11:38:13 2019
From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 12:38:13 -0400
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905211006190.1214@linuxserv.home>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905211006190.1214@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <CAADZ-4PhEL2asoTAzNe27+aHt7Fdoa+cm1+ZAm3k+YmqddA8Qw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 21, 2019, 04:13 Christian Corti via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> You definitely need a raised floor
> for a data center. You need it for forced air cooling and for running the
> water and condensate pipes.


Ductwork doesn't have to be below the floor. Modern co-lo facilities that I
have been in (such as Switch Supernap) don't have a raised floor.

Plumbing (unless you're doing aisle containment or RDHx) shouldn't run
through the IT space in the data center.

Cooling water to racks should be dewpoint adjusted, so you don't need
condensate drains inside the DC.

And overhead trays are much more difficult to
> work with if you want to lay new cables because you have to climb up and
> down the ladder all the time, moving the ladder from here to there and
> back to here...
>

I solved that by having multiple ladders. In my experience, it's a lot
easier than trying to reach through a cluttered raised floor under racks.

The only good reason that I have seen in this thread for a raised floor is
to match older equipment that routes cables downwards.

Pat

>

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Tue May 21 11:45:46 2019
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 11:45:46 -0500
Subject: OT: (was: Re: Things to do in Australia & New Zealand?)
In-Reply-To: <D254923C-34BC-42AC-BCD6-8B0DBBFF8BB6@swri.edu>
References: <CAADZ-4OBPKpiXQQm2E5UAhC_Mr5N87ODjUexc52VX7puf7wCGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <3.0.6.32.20190521101244.011da220@mail.optusnet.com.au>
 <D254923C-34BC-42AC-BCD6-8B0DBBFF8BB6@swri.edu>
Message-ID: <CAALmim=SXJjE3WTAWER132v-SATW8i8K4-APKz7iEUjAo2VGvw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 10:58 PM Tapley, Mark via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >> Subject: Things to do in Australia & New Zealand?
> >> From: Patrick Finnegan
>
> Were I in Sydney, I would spend the  ~4 hours to drive to a little West of Canberra:
>
> https://deepspace.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/
> https://deepspace.jpl.nasa.gov/about/complexes/visiting/

I can recommend it!  I visited there in 1997 on my way home from the Ice.

As for New Zealand, I've spent 90% of my time on the South Island,
mostly Christchurch but some time up the coast a bit and briefly in
Nelson on the way to the Ferry Terminal to visit the North Island.

Unfortunately, I didn't know anyone who was into vintage computing in
NZ in the 90s or on my most recent trips.

-ethan

From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Tue May 21 11:53:59 2019
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 11:53:59 -0500
Subject: apollo psa test point adaptor
In-Reply-To: <5CE4101D.5000302@pico-systems.com>
References: <CABi7Mb7du0O5LTKvTUpiYQGSBvT82TGbWLiUD8q7-3c2VO5fWQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5CE4101D.5000302@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs20ePtTqLAfDWdEw3h5sQMSsRbCEUD8Drvr=9dynoYk5kg@mail.gmail.com>

pritty much lol

On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 9:50 AM Jon Elson via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> On 05/20/2019 05:38 PM, Carl Claunch via cctalk wrote:
> > On 05/19/2019 09:46 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
> >> There's a switch labeled "IRIG" which stands for Inter Range
> >> Instrumentation Group, and refers to a standard for
> >>    telemetry encoding.  There is a standard for time code, a
> >>    standard for modulating analog signas onto a bunch of FM
> >>    carriers, and a standard for multiplexing several analog
> >>    signals onto one FM carrier.
> > In this case IRIG stands for Inertial Reference Integrating Gyroscope,
> one
> > of three inside the Intertial Measurement Unit of the spacecraft.
> Good GRIEF!  Clashing acronyms.  And, NASA certainly knew
> about the other IRIG, as they used IRIG standards on a lot
> of telemetry and radar systems.
>
> Jon
>

From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Tue May 21 12:03:14 2019
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 12:03:14 -0500
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <CAADZ-4PhEL2asoTAzNe27+aHt7Fdoa+cm1+ZAm3k+YmqddA8Qw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905211006190.1214@linuxserv.home>
 <CAADZ-4PhEL2asoTAzNe27+aHt7Fdoa+cm1+ZAm3k+YmqddA8Qw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs23NLPw3=c3e8ptAAkeNrbn6rw=DkOKVzvonsKnKTX+20g@mail.gmail.com>

all systems have their advantages disadvantages it all depends on what your
doing and designs u choose. personaly i think raised floor and tray above
are best then u keep all ur power below away from ur data lines plus but
then ur setup is only as good as the lazyest tech u get comming in running
stuff.

On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 11:38 AM Patrick Finnegan via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Tue, May 21, 2019, 04:13 Christian Corti via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > You definitely need a raised floor
> > for a data center. You need it for forced air cooling and for running the
> > water and condensate pipes.
>
>
> Ductwork doesn't have to be below the floor. Modern co-lo facilities that I
> have been in (such as Switch Supernap) don't have a raised floor.
>
> Plumbing (unless you're doing aisle containment or RDHx) shouldn't run
> through the IT space in the data center.
>
> Cooling water to racks should be dewpoint adjusted, so you don't need
> condensate drains inside the DC.
>
> And overhead trays are much more difficult to
> > work with if you want to lay new cables because you have to climb up and
> > down the ladder all the time, moving the ladder from here to there and
> > back to here...
> >
>
> I solved that by having multiple ladders. In my experience, it's a lot
> easier than trying to reach through a cluttered raised floor under racks.
>
> The only good reason that I have seen in this thread for a raised floor is
> to match older equipment that routes cables downwards.
>
> Pat
>
> >
>

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue May 21 12:28:39 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 10:28:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <CAADZ-4PhEL2asoTAzNe27+aHt7Fdoa+cm1+ZAm3k+YmqddA8Qw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905211006190.1214@linuxserv.home>
 <CAADZ-4PhEL2asoTAzNe27+aHt7Fdoa+cm1+ZAm3k+YmqddA8Qw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905211026540.32345@shell.lmi.net>

"1 in the elvator takes you to the data center.
B in the elvator takes you to the tall enough to walk in raised floor.
M or 2 in the elevator takes you to the overhead ca ble area."

From w2hx at w2hx.com  Tue May 21 12:31:54 2019
From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 17:31:54 +0000
Subject: apollo psa test point adaptor
In-Reply-To: <B22F4246-9391-4337-BDD1-EAA0EB7307CD@gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs22yBQep3_z5U+40Nm=34nni5w9vu-aHB8m29nw2WqDU2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5CE16C28.1000505@pico-systems.com>,
 <B22F4246-9391-4337-BDD1-EAA0EB7307CD@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1558459914289.88000@w2hx.com>

>BTW I got my Apollo IRIG at the same auction that Adrian got the Apollo PSA tester from. 

Wow, didn't know that NASA had testers for prostate specific antigen! 

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue May 21 12:38:23 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 10:38:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: apollo psa test point adaptor
In-Reply-To: <1558459914289.88000@w2hx.com>
References: <CAA3rs22yBQep3_z5U+40Nm=34nni5w9vu-aHB8m29nw2WqDU2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5CE16C28.1000505@pico-systems.com>,
 <B22F4246-9391-4337-BDD1-EAA0EB7307CD@gmail.com>
 <1558459914289.88000@w2hx.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905211037260.32345@shell.lmi.net>

>> BTW I got my Apollo IRIG at the same auction that Adrian got the Apollo PSA tester from.

On Tue, 21 May 2019, W2HX via cctalk wrote:
Wow, didn't know that NASA had testers for prostate specific antigen!


Sure!
Didn't you see the Public Service Announcement?

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Tue May 21 12:43:25 2019
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 12:43:25 -0500
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs23NLPw3=c3e8ptAAkeNrbn6rw=DkOKVzvonsKnKTX+20g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905211006190.1214@linuxserv.home>
 <CAADZ-4PhEL2asoTAzNe27+aHt7Fdoa+cm1+ZAm3k+YmqddA8Qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23NLPw3=c3e8ptAAkeNrbn6rw=DkOKVzvonsKnKTX+20g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <004601d50ffc$b173a8e0$145afaa0$@classiccmp.org>

No modern datacenter that I have seen still uses a raised floor *OTHER THAN* about 3 inches for a ground plane. There is a reason for that... the old idea of forced cooling under the floor and mixing power & data cables there has been found to be a truly bad idea.

Power in most any modern datacenter is via "track lighting" rails directly over the row of racks. Ex: https://www.starlinepower.com/busway/

HVAC units are generally not inside the datacenter any longer either, nor are UPS's. These cause access control issues with vendors doing maintenance and raises issues for publicly traded companies that must meet certain control & accountability standards. Not to mention locating them on the datacenter floor can cause issues with cool air routing. So these days the hot and cold aisles are alternating, with a windsock/tube above the racks for cold air delivery to the front and an 8 foot or so fan built in the hot aisle wall. This is the optimum place for particle (smoke) sensors as well. That design also lets in certain situations outside air to be used.

So to say you "definitely need a raised floor for a datacenter" is only true if you are trying to create a period replica. A modern datacenter built that way... well... not sure any self-respecting contractor would build one 'the old way' :)

J
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Stoness via cctalk
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2019 12:03 PM
To: Patrick Finnegan <pat at vax11.net>; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....

all systems have their advantages disadvantages it all depends on what your doing and designs u choose. personaly i think raised floor and tray above are best then u keep all ur power below away from ur data lines plus but then ur setup is only as good as the lazyest tech u get comming in running stuff.

On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 11:38 AM Patrick Finnegan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Tue, May 21, 2019, 04:13 Christian Corti via cctalk < 
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > You definitely need a raised floor
> > for a data center. You need it for forced air cooling and for 
> > running the water and condensate pipes.
>
>
> Ductwork doesn't have to be below the floor. Modern co-lo facilities 
> that I have been in (such as Switch Supernap) don't have a raised floor.
>
> Plumbing (unless you're doing aisle containment or RDHx) shouldn't run 
> through the IT space in the data center.
>
> Cooling water to racks should be dewpoint adjusted, so you don't need 
> condensate drains inside the DC.
>
> And overhead trays are much more difficult to
> > work with if you want to lay new cables because you have to climb up 
> > and down the ladder all the time, moving the ladder from here to 
> > there and back to here...
> >
>
> I solved that by having multiple ladders. In my experience, it's a lot 
> easier than trying to reach through a cluttered raised floor under racks.
>
> The only good reason that I have seen in this thread for a raised 
> floor is to match older equipment that routes cables downwards.
>
> Pat
>
> >
>



From wrcooke at wrcooke.net  Tue May 21 12:58:23 2019
From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 12:58:23 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: apollo psa test point adaptor
In-Reply-To: <1558459914289.88000@w2hx.com>
References: <CAA3rs22yBQep3_z5U+40Nm=34nni5w9vu-aHB8m29nw2WqDU2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5CE16C28.1000505@pico-systems.com>,
 <B22F4246-9391-4337-BDD1-EAA0EB7307CD@gmail.com>
 <1558459914289.88000@w2hx.com>
Message-ID: <493906190.586285.1558461503818@email.ionos.com>


> On May 21, 2019 at 12:31 PM W2HX via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> >BTW I got my Apollo IRIG at the same auction that Adrian got the Apollo PSA tester from. 
> 
> Wow, didn't know that NASA had testers for prostate specific antigen!

They use them when exploring Uranus.

From spc at conman.org  Tue May 21 13:04:45 2019
From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 14:04:45 -0400
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <004601d50ffc$b173a8e0$145afaa0$@classiccmp.org>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905211006190.1214@linuxserv.home>
 <CAADZ-4PhEL2asoTAzNe27+aHt7Fdoa+cm1+ZAm3k+YmqddA8Qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23NLPw3=c3e8ptAAkeNrbn6rw=DkOKVzvonsKnKTX+20g@mail.gmail.com>
 <004601d50ffc$b173a8e0$145afaa0$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <20190521180445.GC9871@brevard.conman.org>

It was thus said that the Great Jay West via cctalk once stated:
> No modern datacenter that I have seen still uses a raised floor *OTHER
> THAN* about 3 inches for a ground plane. There is a reason for that... the
> old idea of forced cooling under the floor and mixing power & data cables
> there has been found to be a truly bad idea.

  I recall walking through the former IBM main site in Boca Raton [1] in the
late 90s with a few friends.  We were amazed to see labs with six-foot deep
pits---the tiles long gone and all cables removed.  It was quite the sight
to see.

  -spc

[1]	Google street view:

https://www.google.com/maps/@26.3912323,-80.1059743,3a,75y,272.91h,88.2t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sLqyUfSPPBaTwXUGrMFebxQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DLqyUfSPPBaTwXUGrMFebxQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D60.71677%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

	The building is rated for a class-5 hurricane.  It's quite
	impressive.


From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Tue May 21 13:22:08 2019
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 12:22:08 -0600
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs23NLPw3=c3e8ptAAkeNrbn6rw=DkOKVzvonsKnKTX+20g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905211006190.1214@linuxserv.home>
 <CAADZ-4PhEL2asoTAzNe27+aHt7Fdoa+cm1+ZAm3k+YmqddA8Qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23NLPw3=c3e8ptAAkeNrbn6rw=DkOKVzvonsKnKTX+20g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2c9a069b-2dd6-ac2b-7e9a-98d5113f7f29@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 5/21/2019 11:03 AM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:
> all systems have their advantages disadvantages it all depends on what your
> doing and designs u choose. personaly i think raised floor and tray above
> are best then u keep all ur power below away from ur data lines plus but
> then ur setup is only as good as the lazyest tech u get comming in running
> stuff.

I say use the STAR TREK layout. All cables run under the AIR DUCTS, and
you crawl through those. :)
Ben.


From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Tue May 21 14:34:14 2019
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 15:34:14 -0400
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <004601d50ffc$b173a8e0$145afaa0$@classiccmp.org>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905211006190.1214@linuxserv.home>
 <CAADZ-4PhEL2asoTAzNe27+aHt7Fdoa+cm1+ZAm3k+YmqddA8Qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23NLPw3=c3e8ptAAkeNrbn6rw=DkOKVzvonsKnKTX+20g@mail.gmail.com>
 <004601d50ffc$b173a8e0$145afaa0$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CANij+ddKtScCAKqF3_ptzvoHYQt=H+W7zbLAzZWBC3RYP8eC9w@mail.gmail.com>

I might think far more "obsolete" than "bad idea". It worked very well
for the mainframe folks.

--
Will

On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 1:50 PM Jay West via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> No modern datacenter that I have seen still uses a raised floor *OTHER THAN* about 3 inches for a ground plane. There is a reason for that... the old idea of forced cooling under the floor and mixing power & data cables there has been found to be a truly bad idea.
>
> Power in most any modern datacenter is via "track lighting" rails directly over the row of racks. Ex: https://www.starlinepower.com/busway/
>
> HVAC units are generally not inside the datacenter any longer either, nor are UPS's. These cause access control issues with vendors doing maintenance and raises issues for publicly traded companies that must meet certain control & accountability standards. Not to mention locating them on the datacenter floor can cause issues with cool air routing. So these days the hot and cold aisles are alternating, with a windsock/tube above the racks for cold air delivery to the front and an 8 foot or so fan built in the hot aisle wall. This is the optimum place for particle (smoke) sensors as well. That design also lets in certain situations outside air to be used.
>
> So to say you "definitely need a raised floor for a datacenter" is only true if you are trying to create a period replica. A modern datacenter built that way... well... not sure any self-respecting contractor would build one 'the old way' :)
>
> J
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Stoness via cctalk
> Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2019 12:03 PM
> To: Patrick Finnegan <pat at vax11.net>; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....
>
> all systems have their advantages disadvantages it all depends on what your doing and designs u choose. personaly i think raised floor and tray above are best then u keep all ur power below away from ur data lines plus but then ur setup is only as good as the lazyest tech u get comming in running stuff.
>
> On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 11:38 AM Patrick Finnegan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, May 21, 2019, 04:13 Christian Corti via cctalk <
> > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > > You definitely need a raised floor
> > > for a data center. You need it for forced air cooling and for
> > > running the water and condensate pipes.
> >
> >
> > Ductwork doesn't have to be below the floor. Modern co-lo facilities
> > that I have been in (such as Switch Supernap) don't have a raised floor.
> >
> > Plumbing (unless you're doing aisle containment or RDHx) shouldn't run
> > through the IT space in the data center.
> >
> > Cooling water to racks should be dewpoint adjusted, so you don't need
> > condensate drains inside the DC.
> >
> > And overhead trays are much more difficult to
> > > work with if you want to lay new cables because you have to climb up
> > > and down the ladder all the time, moving the ladder from here to
> > > there and back to here...
> > >
> >
> > I solved that by having multiple ladders. In my experience, it's a lot
> > easier than trying to reach through a cluttered raised floor under racks.
> >
> > The only good reason that I have seen in this thread for a raised
> > floor is to match older equipment that routes cables downwards.
> >
> > Pat
> >
> > >
> >
>
>

From cclist at sydex.com  Tue May 21 14:51:26 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 12:51:26 -0700
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <CANij+ddKtScCAKqF3_ptzvoHYQt=H+W7zbLAzZWBC3RYP8eC9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905211006190.1214@linuxserv.home>
 <CAADZ-4PhEL2asoTAzNe27+aHt7Fdoa+cm1+ZAm3k+YmqddA8Qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23NLPw3=c3e8ptAAkeNrbn6rw=DkOKVzvonsKnKTX+20g@mail.gmail.com>
 <004601d50ffc$b173a8e0$145afaa0$@classiccmp.org>
 <CANij+ddKtScCAKqF3_ptzvoHYQt=H+W7zbLAzZWBC3RYP8eC9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3532a95a-8afa-26db-fbf2-9a00124388cd@sydex.com>

On 5/21/19 12:34 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:
> I might think far more "obsolete" than "bad idea". It worked very well
> for the mainframe folks.

...except when it didn't.   On more than one occasion, I recall watching
some poor soul with a cart balanced with long (3 foot) trays full of
cards, hitting a lifted separator strip in the raised floor.  Over goes
the cart, the cards spread in every direction, and the pusher sitting in
the middle of it all, close to tears.

If you happen to chance across any old card decks and note traces of a
diagonal line drawn across the top, that's the reason--a visual aid for
reassembling a spilled deck.

I think the integration folks eventually moved to 4-wheel carts instead
of the 3-wheel ones for exactly this reason.   Their job was integrating
new code and patches into the existing product base.  The trip with the
cards was to make a tape of the data, so that the trip didn't have to be
repeated.

--Chuck


From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Tue May 21 14:55:31 2019
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 15:55:31 -0400
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <3532a95a-8afa-26db-fbf2-9a00124388cd@sydex.com>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905211006190.1214@linuxserv.home>
 <CAADZ-4PhEL2asoTAzNe27+aHt7Fdoa+cm1+ZAm3k+YmqddA8Qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23NLPw3=c3e8ptAAkeNrbn6rw=DkOKVzvonsKnKTX+20g@mail.gmail.com>
 <004601d50ffc$b173a8e0$145afaa0$@classiccmp.org>
 <CANij+ddKtScCAKqF3_ptzvoHYQt=H+W7zbLAzZWBC3RYP8eC9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <3532a95a-8afa-26db-fbf2-9a00124388cd@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+dfP+wuG8oxwQVGNZRqutBwmF1HHhktbf5uGLL+hVSbaqw@mail.gmail.com>

You can't blame anyone but they idiot using a 3 wheel cart while
moving decks of cards. No sympathy from me.

--
Will

On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 3:51 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> On 5/21/19 12:34 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:
> > I might think far more "obsolete" than "bad idea". It worked very well
> > for the mainframe folks.
>
> ...except when it didn't.   On more than one occasion, I recall watching
> some poor soul with a cart balanced with long (3 foot) trays full of
> cards, hitting a lifted separator strip in the raised floor.  Over goes
> the cart, the cards spread in every direction, and the pusher sitting in
> the middle of it all, close to tears.
>
> If you happen to chance across any old card decks and note traces of a
> diagonal line drawn across the top, that's the reason--a visual aid for
> reassembling a spilled deck.
>
> I think the integration folks eventually moved to 4-wheel carts instead
> of the 3-wheel ones for exactly this reason.   Their job was integrating
> new code and patches into the existing product base.  The trip with the
> cards was to make a tape of the data, so that the trip didn't have to be
> repeated.
>
> --Chuck
>

From cclist at sydex.com  Tue May 21 15:11:34 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 13:11:34 -0700
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dfP+wuG8oxwQVGNZRqutBwmF1HHhktbf5uGLL+hVSbaqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905211006190.1214@linuxserv.home>
 <CAADZ-4PhEL2asoTAzNe27+aHt7Fdoa+cm1+ZAm3k+YmqddA8Qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23NLPw3=c3e8ptAAkeNrbn6rw=DkOKVzvonsKnKTX+20g@mail.gmail.com>
 <004601d50ffc$b173a8e0$145afaa0$@classiccmp.org>
 <CANij+ddKtScCAKqF3_ptzvoHYQt=H+W7zbLAzZWBC3RYP8eC9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <3532a95a-8afa-26db-fbf2-9a00124388cd@sydex.com>
 <CANij+dfP+wuG8oxwQVGNZRqutBwmF1HHhktbf5uGLL+hVSbaqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6bedbe1d-3351-3872-bbd4-aa5f40986de8@sydex.com>

On 5/21/19 12:55 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
> You can't blame anyone but they idiot using a 3 wheel cart while
> moving decks of cards. No sympathy from me.

They were using what was available. I&R bought their own four-wheel cart
(looked like a standard gray industrial shop cart that you can purchase
today.  I suspect the small ones were intended for easy access when
delivering cards, tapes and listings to many people and the easy ability
to get in and out of elevators and through doorways. I suspect that they
were repurposed small mail carts.

--Chuck


From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Tue May 21 15:17:24 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 14:17:24 -0600
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <3532a95a-8afa-26db-fbf2-9a00124388cd@sydex.com>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905211006190.1214@linuxserv.home>
 <CAADZ-4PhEL2asoTAzNe27+aHt7Fdoa+cm1+ZAm3k+YmqddA8Qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23NLPw3=c3e8ptAAkeNrbn6rw=DkOKVzvonsKnKTX+20g@mail.gmail.com>
 <004601d50ffc$b173a8e0$145afaa0$@classiccmp.org>
 <CANij+ddKtScCAKqF3_ptzvoHYQt=H+W7zbLAzZWBC3RYP8eC9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <3532a95a-8afa-26db-fbf2-9a00124388cd@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <a280f301-b196-52d3-503a-06c873a3039f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 5/21/19 1:51 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> ...except when it didn't.   On more than one occasion, I recall watching 
> some poor soul with a cart balanced with long (3 foot) trays full of 
> cards, hitting a lifted separator strip in the raised floor.  Over goes 
> the cart, the cards spread in every direction, and the pusher sitting 
> in the middle of it all, close to tears.

I'm sure that was /a/ problem.  But I'm not comfortable attributing that 
problem to the raised floor.

I expect that the same problem would be effected by an elevator that 
doesn't stop perfectly level with the floor, or has too wide a gap 
between the car and the floor, or even on tiled floor.

That really seems to me like it's a sub-optimal design, pushed past it's 
operating parameters by overloading it.

I can't fault the raised floor for that problem.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From cclist at sydex.com  Tue May 21 16:33:21 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 14:33:21 -0700
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <a280f301-b196-52d3-503a-06c873a3039f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905211006190.1214@linuxserv.home>
 <CAADZ-4PhEL2asoTAzNe27+aHt7Fdoa+cm1+ZAm3k+YmqddA8Qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23NLPw3=c3e8ptAAkeNrbn6rw=DkOKVzvonsKnKTX+20g@mail.gmail.com>
 <004601d50ffc$b173a8e0$145afaa0$@classiccmp.org>
 <CANij+ddKtScCAKqF3_ptzvoHYQt=H+W7zbLAzZWBC3RYP8eC9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <3532a95a-8afa-26db-fbf2-9a00124388cd@sydex.com>
 <a280f301-b196-52d3-503a-06c873a3039f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <25ee7bae-38f3-5384-9be9-e95660e7f619@sydex.com>

On 5/21/19 1:17 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:

> I'm sure that was /a/ problem.? But I'm not comfortable attributing that
> problem to the raised floor.
> 
> I expect that the same problem would be effected by an elevator that
> doesn't stop perfectly level with the floor, or has too wide a gap
> between the car and the floor, or even on tiled floor.
> 
> That really seems to me like it's a sub-optimal design, pushed past it's
> operating parameters by overloading it.
> 
> I can't fault the raised floor for that problem.

No, but it's just one of the anecdotes that go with the terrain, like
leaving a box or two of cards or a stack of tapes or your dinner on top
of a 1403N1 when it ran out of forms..

How well sealed were the raised floors?  I ask this because i recall an
episode or two where a disk drive would spring a leak and make a
beautiful slippery pool on the floor, just waiting for the next operator
to dash by. I always wondered how much of the stuff made it to the subfloor.

--Chuck


From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Tue May 21 16:37:56 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 15:37:56 -0600
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <25ee7bae-38f3-5384-9be9-e95660e7f619@sydex.com>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905211006190.1214@linuxserv.home>
 <CAADZ-4PhEL2asoTAzNe27+aHt7Fdoa+cm1+ZAm3k+YmqddA8Qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23NLPw3=c3e8ptAAkeNrbn6rw=DkOKVzvonsKnKTX+20g@mail.gmail.com>
 <004601d50ffc$b173a8e0$145afaa0$@classiccmp.org>
 <CANij+ddKtScCAKqF3_ptzvoHYQt=H+W7zbLAzZWBC3RYP8eC9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <3532a95a-8afa-26db-fbf2-9a00124388cd@sydex.com>
 <a280f301-b196-52d3-503a-06c873a3039f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <25ee7bae-38f3-5384-9be9-e95660e7f619@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <01d6de11-62b6-e938-1aee-94c8a944bb83@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 5/21/19 3:33 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> How well sealed were the raised floors?  I ask this because i recall an 
> episode or two where a disk drive would spring a leak and make a beautiful 
> slippery pool on the floor, just waiting for the next operator to dash 
> by. I always wondered how much of the stuff made it to the subfloor.

I wouldn't consider them sealed at all.

Is suspect that vast majority of the fluid would spread out across the 
tiles than would actually drip through.  I expect that it would have a 
lot more to do with the rate of release to determine if it would flow 
across tile gaps vs drip down in between.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From anders at abc80.net  Tue May 21 07:28:49 2019
From: anders at abc80.net (Anders Sandahl)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 14:28:49 +0200
Subject: Available: Wang 370 book
In-Reply-To: <78823b8447341c7428bdcc76935e013d.squirrel@webmail.sadata.se>
References: <mailman.3.1558285200.47369.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <78823b8447341c7428bdcc76935e013d.squirrel@webmail.sadata.se>
Message-ID: <1f682152c1ffc4fb3a52a25569f0d8d0.squirrel@webmail.sadata.se>

It's been taken.

> Hi,
>
> I got a stash of documentation yesterday. Found a book "WANG 370
> calculating system, program library volume 1" which I don't have any use
> for. Looks to be almost unread, it has become a bit yellow and it has a
> small sticker on the front page. Printed in 1968.
>
> Is there anybody that want's it (free pickup in south Sweden or for
> postage fee)?
>
> /Anders
>



From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net  Tue May 21 17:03:26 2019
From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 18:03:26 -0400
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <25ee7bae-38f3-5384-9be9-e95660e7f619@sydex.com>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905211006190.1214@linuxserv.home>
 <CAADZ-4PhEL2asoTAzNe27+aHt7Fdoa+cm1+ZAm3k+YmqddA8Qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23NLPw3=c3e8ptAAkeNrbn6rw=DkOKVzvonsKnKTX+20g@mail.gmail.com>
 <004601d50ffc$b173a8e0$145afaa0$@classiccmp.org>
 <CANij+ddKtScCAKqF3_ptzvoHYQt=H+W7zbLAzZWBC3RYP8eC9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <3532a95a-8afa-26db-fbf2-9a00124388cd@sydex.com>
 <a280f301-b196-52d3-503a-06c873a3039f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <25ee7bae-38f3-5384-9be9-e95660e7f619@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <0e2b01d51021$0480e920$0d82bb60$@verizon.net>

Chuck Guzis wrote:

> How well sealed were the raised floors?

If you mean "when properly installed", pretty well.
If you mean "as actually used", not at all.

With the exception of the very small raised floor under
the HP-3000 in my high school, every place I've encountered
raised floors there were "permanently removed" tiles, tiles
with corners cut off, tiles with large holes drilled into their
centers, etc. etc.

Bill S.



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Tue May 21 17:30:50 2019
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 23:30:50 +0100
Subject: Raised Floor => was RE: Pleas ID this IBM system....
Message-ID: <041601d51024$d85d5500$8917ff00$@gmail.com>

 -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis via
> cctalk
> Sent: 21 May 2019 22:33
> To: Grant Taylor via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Pleas ID this IBM system....
> 
> On 5/21/19 1:17 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> 
> > I'm sure that was /a/ problem.  But I'm not comfortable attributing
> > that problem to the raised floor.
> >
> > I expect that the same problem would be effected by an elevator that
> > doesn't stop perfectly level with the floor, or has too wide a gap
> > between the car and the floor, or even on tiled floor.
> >
> > That really seems to me like it's a sub-optimal design, pushed past
> > it's operating parameters by overloading it.
> >
> > I can't fault the raised floor for that problem.
> 
> No, but it's just one of the anecdotes that go with the terrain, like leaving a
> box or two of cards or a stack of tapes or your dinner on top of a 1403N1
> when it ran out of forms..
> 
> How well sealed were the raised floors?  I ask this because i recall an episode
> or two where a disk drive would spring a leak and make a beautiful slippery
> pool on the floor, just waiting for the next operator to dash by. I always
> wondered how much of the stuff made it to the subfloor.
> 

I think the joints were often tight. Otherwise you got drafts or a breeze. 
Speaking of breezes, we found our plotter ( kept over-heating.) 
Some one kept closing the floor vent.
We eventually found it was the plotter operator who was a young lady with a short skirt.
When loading the mag tape with the plots she had to stand over the vent which blew out cold air,
So she closed the vent.....
... it took some tact to get this info, and we then moved the tile with the vent and the plotter stayed cool...
 
At another place we had a disk drive drop through a tile. We had had the joiners make some temporary tiles while we were having an upgrade.
The ran out of plywood and joined two scraps, but not very well. The rocking of the drive broke the joint and the drive fell through.
We were surprised it kept working without a head crash....

> --Chuck

Dave


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue May 21 18:56:41 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 19:56:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: M7264 Troubleshooting
Message-ID: <20190521235641.4BBAD18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Mister PDP

Well, I verified that the LSI-11/2 should work in a Q22 backplane -
in the sense that the only pins it tries to talk to are standard
QBUS pins, and AF1/AH1 for SRUN. It doesn't drive BREF, which might
cause issues in later QBUS systems.

Although it's a different board from the LSI-11, it uses the same CPU
chip set, so it should give us some useful comparison data.

So after a certain amount of issues (see next), I got my LSI-11/2 working.

(It doesn't seem to work with Q18 memory, such as the MSV11-D. Attempts to
write 0 to memory from ODT wind up leaving the bits in the high byte set.
I have no idea why - anyone have any ideas? With Q22 memory, the symptoms
are even stranger; the system hangs with the 'run' light on - even with
the HALT switch on! Luckily I had an MMV11, and it worked OK with that.)

    > I took a picture of the readouts for SRUN

Odd. On the LSI-11/2, with the machine stopped, 'run' was off, and the
output on AF1/AH1 was always high (i.e. not asserted).

I don't have any guesses as to what the behaviour of yours is about.

    > Checking the BSYNC, it looks like there is life. It oscillates at
    > 58.605 KHz, and has wider peaks than the SRUN signal.

The frequency is not as useful as plain timings - especially for signals
which don't have a 50/50 duty cycle. For example, on the -11/2, while in
the ODT console CSR read loop (below), BSYNC is asserted for 2.5 usec
(which sounds about right for a complete read cycle), then off for 1.0
usec.

Also, in the pictures, it's not clear which part of the cycle is asserted
(which, on the QBUS, is 0V - i.e. inverted) and which is idle (~3V). Is
this the actual bus signal we're seeing, with high being idle, zor on the
other side of an inverting receiver?

The image shows some timing numbers, but it's not clear that they mean.
E.g. above, it says "4.00 usec" - but is that per division, the whole
horizontal, what? Below, I see below "17.06 usec", and if that's the
rising edge -> next rising edge interval, that sounds like a bus timeout
is happening.

    > This signal does not respond to the Run/Halt switch being toggled,
    > but I would assume that to be normal

Right; while in ODT the CPU is trying to read the console CSR, and
so you should see BSYNC cycling.

At this point, you might want to look at BRPLY, which will tell us
if the console is responding to the read of the CSR.

Also, I don't know if your /73 system has a KDJ11-A (dual width card, no
onboard console) or a KDJ11-B (quad width card, onboard console); if the
former, it might be worth swapping the DLV11 card into that system to
see if _it_ is working.

	Noel

From couryhouse at aol.com  Tue May 21 19:16:51 2019
From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2019 00:16:51 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
References: <177868600.3308872.1558484211360.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <177868600.3308872.1558484211360@mail.yahoo.com>

I liked? raised? flooring....? ? ?you can? clean the room up? fast? by stashing? stuff in the non critical to airflow? areas!? ----see


we? were? lucky? when? comshare? of an arbor? ? division on? phx? ? moved out? ?where? they? designed? IBM channel interfaces? for? xerox sigma 9s
We? got their? space next to? us? ?and bought? their? their? flooring? rather? than them? shipping? back? to ann arbor Mich.? to put? our? HP? stuff on.
best? thing? ever? did? ?it? kept? things neat, clean and? provided? xtra storage.?

In a message dated 5/20/2019 9:11:04 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:
> I guess it would look right for the era, but I'd never build a data center
> with raised flooring after my experiences with them.? It's such a pain to
> work with compared to a sealed concrete floor and overhead cable trays.

But with a raised floor, you can whack the tile puller down in such a
way that it makes an enormously loud pop that startles everyone in the
datacenter!

I cannot imagine difficult it would be to run S/360 era cables in
overhead trays. Many are an inch or more in diameter.

--
Will

--
Will

From elson at pico-systems.com  Tue May 21 19:32:53 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 19:32:53 -0500
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <25ee7bae-38f3-5384-9be9-e95660e7f619@sydex.com>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905211006190.1214@linuxserv.home>
 <CAADZ-4PhEL2asoTAzNe27+aHt7Fdoa+cm1+ZAm3k+YmqddA8Qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23NLPw3=c3e8ptAAkeNrbn6rw=DkOKVzvonsKnKTX+20g@mail.gmail.com>
 <004601d50ffc$b173a8e0$145afaa0$@classiccmp.org>
 <CANij+ddKtScCAKqF3_ptzvoHYQt=H+W7zbLAzZWBC3RYP8eC9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <3532a95a-8afa-26db-fbf2-9a00124388cd@sydex.com>
 <a280f301-b196-52d3-503a-06c873a3039f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <25ee7bae-38f3-5384-9be9-e95660e7f619@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <5CE498B5.6060803@pico-systems.com>

On 05/21/2019 04:33 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> How well sealed were the raised floors?
Not at all.  They were 2 foot squares sitting on adjustable 
pillars.  Each pillar supported 4 tiles where they all met 
at the corners.  You could easily slip a punch card (or 
credit card) between most of the tiles.  Anything poured on 
the floor would run down between the tiles.

Jon

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Tue May 21 19:34:16 2019
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 17:34:16 -0700
Subject: M7264 Troubleshooting
In-Reply-To: <20190521235641.4BBAD18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190521235641.4BBAD18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwJHqBrSgM7dU9QwHM1EO+XG1QHJ=d8_MV-Nd--85sNq5w@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 4:56 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Well, I verified that the LSI-11/2 should work in a Q22 backplane -
> in the sense that the only pins it tries to talk to are standard
> QBUS pins, and AF1/AH1 for SRUN. It doesn't drive BREF, which might
> cause issues in later QBUS systems.
>
> (It doesn't seem to work with Q18 memory, such as the MSV11-D. Attempts to
> write 0 to memory from ODT wind up leaving the bits in the high byte set.
> I have no idea why - anyone have any ideas? With Q22 memory, the symptoms
> are even stranger; the system hangs with the 'run' light on - even with
> the HALT switch on! Luckily I had an MMV11, and it worked OK with that.)

Q22 memory uses BC1, BD1, BE1, BF1 for BDAL 18L, BDAL 19L, BDAL 20L, BDAL 21L

According to the M7270 LSI-11/2 Microcomputer Module User's Guid, it
uses BC1, BD1, BE1, BF1 for SCLK3 H, SWMIB18 H, SWMIB19 H, SWMIB20 H.

I haven't found a scan of the KD11-H Field Maintenance Print Set MP-00050.

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Tue May 21 20:01:28 2019
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 18:01:28 -0700
Subject: M7264 Troubleshooting
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwJHqBrSgM7dU9QwHM1EO+XG1QHJ=d8_MV-Nd--85sNq5w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190521235641.4BBAD18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAM2UOwJHqBrSgM7dU9QwHM1EO+XG1QHJ=d8_MV-Nd--85sNq5w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwLRzcT9zk_2QzOe-zWjDksHg=SC+c8FeZYYwFc_zWZgnQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 5:34 PM Glen Slick <glen.slick at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 4:56 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > Well, I verified that the LSI-11/2 should work in a Q22 backplane -
> > in the sense that the only pins it tries to talk to are standard
> > QBUS pins, and AF1/AH1 for SRUN. It doesn't drive BREF, which might
> > cause issues in later QBUS systems.
> >
> > (It doesn't seem to work with Q18 memory, such as the MSV11-D. Attempts to
> > write 0 to memory from ODT wind up leaving the bits in the high byte set.
> > I have no idea why - anyone have any ideas? With Q22 memory, the symptoms
> > are even stranger; the system hangs with the 'run' light on - even with
> > the HALT switch on! Luckily I had an MMV11, and it worked OK with that.)
>
> Q22 memory uses BC1, BD1, BE1, BF1 for BDAL 18L, BDAL 19L, BDAL 20L, BDAL 21L
>
> According to the M7270 LSI-11/2 Microcomputer Module User's Guid, it
> uses BC1, BD1, BE1, BF1 for SCLK3 H, SWMIB18 H, SWMIB19 H, SWMIB20 H.
>
> I haven't found a scan of the KD11-H Field Maintenance Print Set MP-00050.

I just found an online scan of MP00495 KD11-HA LSI11 CPU Field
Maintenance Print Set.

It does show SCLK3 H, SWMIB18 H, SWMIB19 H, SWMIB20 H being driven on
BC1, BD1, BE1, BF1 for the M7270 LSI-11/2. So that seems like it might
be an issue with Q22 memory.

From w2hx at w2hx.com  Tue May 21 20:32:16 2019
From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2019 01:32:16 +0000
Subject: apollo psa test point adaptor
In-Reply-To: <493906190.586285.1558461503818@email.ionos.com>
References: <CAA3rs22yBQep3_z5U+40Nm=34nni5w9vu-aHB8m29nw2WqDU2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5CE16C28.1000505@pico-systems.com>,
 <B22F4246-9391-4337-BDD1-EAA0EB7307CD@gmail.com>
 <1558459914289.88000@w2hx.com>
 <493906190.586285.1558461503818@email.ionos.com>
Message-ID: <81e8a0cede6b41de9a16c7b4b8faad0d@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM>

Too funny that was


73 Eugene W2HX


-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Will Cooke via cctalk
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2019 1:58 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: apollo psa test point adaptor


> On May 21, 2019 at 12:31 PM W2HX via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> >BTW I got my Apollo IRIG at the same auction that Adrian got the Apollo PSA tester from. 
> 
> Wow, didn't know that NASA had testers for prostate specific antigen!

They use them when exploring Uranus.

From linimon at lonesome.com  Tue May 21 22:16:54 2019
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2019 03:16:54 +0000
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <7a6516c1-bf0d-4716-9f96-31cbca1e4fd9@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905211006190.1214@linuxserv.home>
 <7a6516c1-bf0d-4716-9f96-31cbca1e4fd9@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <20190522031653.GA32076@lonesome.com>

On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 09:52:19AM -0600, Grant Taylor via cctech wrote:
> I think Google and their YAWNs

Definition, please?  Wikipedia and Urban Dictionary are no help.  A Google
search itself is nothing but false positives.

mcl

From linimon at lonesome.com  Tue May 21 22:16:54 2019
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2019 03:16:54 +0000
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <7a6516c1-bf0d-4716-9f96-31cbca1e4fd9@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905211006190.1214@linuxserv.home>
 <7a6516c1-bf0d-4716-9f96-31cbca1e4fd9@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <20190522031653.GA32076@lonesome.com>

On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 09:52:19AM -0600, Grant Taylor via cctech wrote:
> I think Google and their YAWNs

Definition, please?  Wikipedia and Urban Dictionary are no help.  A Google
search itself is nothing but false positives.

mcl

From cruff at ruffspot.net  Tue May 21 18:33:07 2019
From: cruff at ruffspot.net (Craig Ruff)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 17:33:07 -0600
Subject: Raised Floors
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1558458000.25203.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.3.1558458000.25203.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <814CC13B-EE7D-49C8-8E9B-ED5BA6EEC07A@ruffspot.net>

The NCAR Wyoming Supercomputer Center has raised floors of about 20 feet. The auxilary cooling and PDUs are installed down there.  Needless to say, you don't pull a floor tile there unless you are on the facility staff!

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Tue May 21 18:47:02 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 17:47:02 -0600
Subject: Raised Floors
In-Reply-To: <814CC13B-EE7D-49C8-8E9B-ED5BA6EEC07A@ruffspot.net>
References: <mailman.3.1558458000.25203.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <814CC13B-EE7D-49C8-8E9B-ED5BA6EEC07A@ruffspot.net>
Message-ID: <7eb6becf-675e-c14a-0636-710b44676e5b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 5/21/19 5:33 PM, Craig Ruff via cctech wrote:
> The NCAR Wyoming Supercomputer Center has raised floors of about 20 feet.

Did the support posts go all the way down?  Or was there some sort of 
grid work that supported the raised floor above an open area that 
contained the PDUs?

I ask because the PDUs in the DC in my office are wider (and longer) 
than a floor tile.  As such, it would require some special 
accommodations if the support posts were 20 feet tall.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From wayne.sudol at hotmail.com  Tue May 21 19:19:28 2019
From: wayne.sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne S)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2019 00:19:28 +0000
Subject: Raised Floors
In-Reply-To: <814CC13B-EE7D-49C8-8E9B-ED5BA6EEC07A@ruffspot.net>
References: <mailman.3.1558458000.25203.cctech@classiccmp.org>,
 <814CC13B-EE7D-49C8-8E9B-ED5BA6EEC07A@ruffspot.net>
Message-ID: <BYAPR01MB5223EEF832E1CFC4752F9879E4070@BYAPR01MB5223.prod.exchangelabs.com>

Interesting.

The arguments I?ve heard from a few data center builders/managers is that the main factor in how a DC is built is that can the business be insured against catastrophic loss. It has to meet all fire codes and has to be reasonably resistant to unforeseen catastrophes, like flooding and earthquakes.



For instance, in the event of an earthquake,  equipment should be anchored to the floor so that it won?t fall over in an and no wiring should be able to short out. Ups power should be out of the room in case of fire so that the firemen can shut it off or else they won?t go into the room because of the shock hazard so the equipment will probably be lost until the fire burns out. And you probably won?t have business continuity insurance. Water hazard is a big one.  A/C water leaks, water/liquid from firemen and fire suppression systems, and water supply leaks damage equipment, so if you build on the first floor a slightly raised floor with a drain in it will usually pass insurance inspection.  Above the first floor then a flat floor with somewhere for liquids to go is probably okay. Also depends on the computer equipment in the room. If everything is in racks at least a few inches above the floor,  where liquid can build up, then it?s probably going to be okay.  If they sit on the floor then not so good.

If the DC is in the basement below sewer pipe level, then you need to take some extra precautions to provide somewhere for the water to go.



I?ve been involved in 3 incidents regarding water at different sites? One where a drain pipe cap in another part of the building popped off during a heavy rainstorm and rainwater somehow flooded the computer room. No damage because the room was raised floor with 6 feet underneath. Another time a 12? water main in the cafeteria broke and flooded everything. That was a lot of water ? took a long time to shut off. Computer room was okay because of raised floor, and because the water ran out the front of the building,  just had to soak up the water with rags, but people outside the room who had towers sitting on the floor lost them.  You could actually see the highwater mark on the computers. Third time was the roof leaked over the computer room during a rainstorm and water got in. The DC was a non-raised floor on the second floor so the water ran under the doors and down the stairs.









________________________________
From: cctech <cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Craig Ruff via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2019 4:33:07 PM
To: cctech at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Raised Floors

The NCAR Wyoming Supercomputer Center has raised floors of about 20 feet. The auxilary cooling and PDUs are installed down there.  Needless to say, you don't pull a floor tile there unless you are on the facility staff!

From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Wed May 22 02:38:46 2019
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2019 09:38:46 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <7a6516c1-bf0d-4716-9f96-31cbca1e4fd9@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905211006190.1214@linuxserv.home>
 <7a6516c1-bf0d-4716-9f96-31cbca1e4fd9@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905220937040.14243@linuxserv.home>

On Tue, 21 May 2019, Grant Taylor wrote:
> On 5/21/19 2:13 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:
>> You definitely need a raised floor for a data center.
> I think Google and their YAWNs will disagree with you on an actual /need/ for 
> a raised floor in a data center.

I'm not Google, I can't put my infrastructure in the Arctic to reduce my 
cooling needs.

Christian

From jim.manley at gmail.com  Wed May 22 02:42:05 2019
From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2019 01:42:05 -0600
Subject: Raised Floors
In-Reply-To: <7eb6becf-675e-c14a-0636-710b44676e5b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <mailman.3.1558458000.25203.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <814CC13B-EE7D-49C8-8E9B-ED5BA6EEC07A@ruffspot.net>
 <7eb6becf-675e-c14a-0636-710b44676e5b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <CAD2R3iuGorLw=XzE0L2Tkysc+i7ZwmoGr1r8mMwrBt7k_WrTgw@mail.gmail.com>

No firefighter in their right mind is going to knowingly pump a drop of
water anywhere near or in the direction of a data center, let alone into
it.  That's why they're equipped with Halon or other oxygen displacement,
cooling, and flame suppression systems, and the FDs are equipped with
appropriate Class 2 (Electrical) firefighting equipment.  FDs conduct
periodic inspections of all on-site fire-fighting equipment and the local
station shifts do walk-throughs to review their procedures.  If any
hazardous materials are present (guaranteed in a DC), they're also taken
into account.

The FDs that serve industrial sites are equipped to fight fires where the
fuels can range from paper through plastics, up to actual petrochemical
fuels.  I worked in the last semiconductor fab still operating in Silicon
Valley and worked with the City of Santa Clara FD on their plans, which had
to deal with the presence of extreme toxins and corrosives such as
hydrofluoric acid used to etch silicon wafers. They used to be responsible
for the Intel fab next door until it was shut down and the fab in
Hillsboro, OR, took over all R&D production.  They said it was a nightmare
waiting to happen because of the volume of extremely hazardous chemicals
used on-site.

Someone should be sued and go to prison for signing off on permits that
would allow water to get anywhere near a DC - it's a violation of the
National Electric Code, for starters.  If anyone sees something like that,
it should be reported immediately, and not within the organization, since
the facilities people are either incompetent or complicit in keeping quiet
about it.  That's what anonymous.hotlines are for, and the media, if no
action occurs with the hotlines - we're talking about the possibility of
serious injury and death here.


On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 11:12 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 5/21/19 5:33 PM, Craig Ruff via cctech wrote:
> > The NCAR Wyoming Supercomputer Center has raised floors of about 20 feet.
>
> Did the support posts go all the way down?  Or was there some sort of
> grid work that supported the raised floor above an open area that
> contained the PDUs?
>
> I ask because the PDUs in the DC in my office are wider (and longer)
> than a floor tile.  As such, it would require some special
> accommodations if the support posts were 20 feet tall.
>
>
>
> --
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die
>

From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Wed May 22 02:49:59 2019
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2019 09:49:59 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <CAADZ-4PhEL2asoTAzNe27+aHt7Fdoa+cm1+ZAm3k+YmqddA8Qw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905211006190.1214@linuxserv.home>
 <CAADZ-4PhEL2asoTAzNe27+aHt7Fdoa+cm1+ZAm3k+YmqddA8Qw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905220939510.14243@linuxserv.home>

On Tue, 21 May 2019, Patrick Finnegan wrote:
> Plumbing (unless you're doing aisle containment or RDHx) shouldn't run
> through the IT space in the data center.

So how exactly do you attach a modern water cooled rack system to your 
cooling water system if not using plumbing?

> Cooling water to racks should be dewpoint adjusted, so you don't need
> condensate drains inside the DC.

That is a requirement, you must have condensate drains just in case that 
the room temperature and/or air humidity rises, or cooling water 
temperature goes below the dew point.

Christian

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed May 22 03:24:33 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2019 01:24:33 -0700
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905220939510.14243@linuxserv.home>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905211006190.1214@linuxserv.home>
 <CAADZ-4PhEL2asoTAzNe27+aHt7Fdoa+cm1+ZAm3k+YmqddA8Qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905220939510.14243@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <71591fc5-a561-c04d-bfb7-182e7e66c465@sydex.com>

On 5/22/19 12:49 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:
> On Tue, 21 May 2019, Patrick Finnegan wrote:
>> Plumbing (unless you're doing aisle containment or RDHx) shouldn't run
>> through the IT space in the data center.
> 
> So how exactly do you attach a modern water cooled rack system to your
> cooling water system if not using plumbing?

So how are data centers cooled with water now?  Does the water cool
coldplates directly?

I've had only a couple of instances where cooling water was used.  In
the case of CDC mainframes, it was used to cool the condenser coils in
the refrigeration units (located in the mainframe).  I believe that Cray
initially used the same guy that CDC used to fabricate the cooling tubing.

I recall visiting the Honeywell plant in Phoenix not long after they
took it over from GE and the engineers there were tinkering with a
direct water-cooling setup--water circulated in each rack (connected by
what was probably vinyl tubing, I don't recall, only that it was
translucent), with copper diaphragms serving as the interface between
the water and the semiconductors.  I recall from comments made that
algae was a problem and adding an algicide to the cooling water tended
to corrode the copper diaphragms.

To the best of my knowledge, this was a test setup--it certainly had an
impressive instrumentation unit with multiple CRTs and neon
thermometer-type displays.

The most extreme example I ever ran into of cooling was the ETA-10
supercomputer--cooled with liquid nitrogen, supplied by a cryostat.  I
don't recall what cooled the latter.

--Chuck





From stefan.skoglund at agj.net  Wed May 22 03:33:33 2019
From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2019 10:33:33 +0200
Subject: Raised Floors
In-Reply-To: <CAD2R3iuGorLw=XzE0L2Tkysc+i7ZwmoGr1r8mMwrBt7k_WrTgw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1558458000.25203.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <814CC13B-EE7D-49C8-8E9B-ED5BA6EEC07A@ruffspot.net>
 <7eb6becf-675e-c14a-0636-710b44676e5b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAD2R3iuGorLw=XzE0L2Tkysc+i7ZwmoGr1r8mMwrBt7k_WrTgw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20ba4bc05321e3be03bfed1cff439a056ee4d42e.camel@agj.net>

ons 2019-05-22 klockan 01:42 -0600 skrev Jim Manley via cctalk:
> No firefighter in their right mind is going to knowingly pump a drop
> of
> water anywhere near or in the direction of a data center, let alone
> into
> it.  That's why they're equipped with Halon or other oxygen
> displacement,
> cooling, and flame suppression systems, and the FDs are equipped with
> appropriate Class 2 (Electrical) firefighting equipment.  FDs conduct
> periodic inspections of all on-site fire-fighting equipment and the
> local
> station shifts do walk-throughs to review their procedures.  If any
> hazardous materials are present (guaranteed in a DC), they're also
> taken
> into account.

Halon should be completely and fully illegal in civilian installations.
No excuses. Deionized water is just as effective.
(Halon is still permitted in EU in some military applications and
aircraft but the clock is ticking on the usage of halon in civil
aircraft.)


From wayne.sudol at hotmail.com  Wed May 22 03:45:55 2019
From: wayne.sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne S)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2019 08:45:55 +0000
Subject: Raised Floors
In-Reply-To: <CAD2R3iuGorLw=XzE0L2Tkysc+i7ZwmoGr1r8mMwrBt7k_WrTgw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1558458000.25203.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <814CC13B-EE7D-49C8-8E9B-ED5BA6EEC07A@ruffspot.net>
 <7eb6becf-675e-c14a-0636-710b44676e5b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>,
 <CAD2R3iuGorLw=XzE0L2Tkysc+i7ZwmoGr1r8mMwrBt7k_WrTgw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BYAPR01MB5223EE95D7795EC0E4DDC441E4000@BYAPR01MB5223.prod.exchangelabs.com>

All true. Just sayin' that water can get into the DC even when it's not intended. 
When fighting a fire in another part of a structure, the water may find it's way into the DC.  

Not sure about not allowing water to get near a dc, can you explain that statement?
The 2 Liebert a/c units that cooled the DC were located inside the room and were water cooled so there was water around. I also remember the old IBM 3032 computers at my first site needed chilled water to operate so there was a lot of piped water going into the room. 

The FD did regular inspections and it didn't seem to bother them in either case.
Funny, but Halon is outlawed and having it around did seem to bother them. It was replaced with some other gas system that i can't remember the name.



> On May 22, 2019, at 12:43 AM, Jim Manley via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> No firefighter in their right mind is going to knowingly pump a drop of
> water anywhere near or in the direction of a data center, let alone into
> it.  That's why they're equipped with Halon or other oxygen displacement,
> cooling, and flame suppression systems, and the FDs are equipped with
> appropriate Class 2 (Electrical) firefighting equipment.  FDs conduct
> periodic inspections of all on-site fire-fighting equipment and the local
> station shifts do walk-throughs to review their procedures.  If any
> hazardous materials are present (guaranteed in a DC), they're also taken
> into account.
> 
> The FDs that serve industrial sites are equipped to fight fires where the
> fuels can range from paper through plastics, up to actual petrochemical
> fuels.  I worked in the last semiconductor fab still operating in Silicon
> Valley and worked with the City of Santa Clara FD on their plans, which had
> to deal with the presence of extreme toxins and corrosives such as
> hydrofluoric acid used to etch silicon wafers. They used to be responsible
> for the Intel fab next door until it was shut down and the fab in
> Hillsboro, OR, took over all R&D production.  They said it was a nightmare
> waiting to happen because of the volume of extremely hazardous chemicals
> used on-site.
> 
> Someone should be sued and go to prison for signing off on permits that
> would allow water to get anywhere near a DC - it's a violation of the
> National Electric Code, for starters.  If anyone sees something like that,
> it should be reported immediately, and not within the organization, since
> the facilities people are either incompetent or complicit in keeping quiet
> about it.  That's what anonymous.hotlines are for, and the media, if no
> action occurs with the hotlines - we're talking about the possibility of
> serious injury and death here.
> 
> 
> On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 11:12 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
>>> On 5/21/19 5:33 PM, Craig Ruff via cctech wrote:
>>> The NCAR Wyoming Supercomputer Center has raised floors of about 20 feet.
>> 
>> Did the support posts go all the way down?  Or was there some sort of
>> grid work that supported the raised floor above an open area that
>> contained the PDUs?
>> 
>> I ask because the PDUs in the DC in my office are wider (and longer)
>> than a floor tile.  As such, it would require some special
>> accommodations if the support posts were 20 feet tall.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Grant. . . .
>> unix || die
>> 

From wayne.sudol at hotmail.com  Wed May 22 03:50:29 2019
From: wayne.sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne S)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2019 08:50:29 +0000
Subject: Raised Floors
In-Reply-To: <BYAPR01MB5223EE95D7795EC0E4DDC441E4000@BYAPR01MB5223.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <mailman.3.1558458000.25203.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <814CC13B-EE7D-49C8-8E9B-ED5BA6EEC07A@ruffspot.net>
 <7eb6becf-675e-c14a-0636-710b44676e5b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>,
 <CAD2R3iuGorLw=XzE0L2Tkysc+i7ZwmoGr1r8mMwrBt7k_WrTgw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <BYAPR01MB5223EE95D7795EC0E4DDC441E4000@BYAPR01MB5223.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <BYAPR01MB52234E7F44F39CC708ADCA61E4000@BYAPR01MB5223.prod.exchangelabs.com>

PS.. Sorry about the top posting. I'm old and i forgot.


Wayne


> On May 22, 2019, at 1:45 AM, Wayne S <wayne.sudol at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> All true. Just sayin' that water can get into the DC even when it's not intended. 
> When fighting a fire in another part of a structure, the water may find it's way into the DC.  
> 
> Not sure about not allowing water to get near a dc, can you explain that statement?
> The 2 Liebert a/c units that cooled the DC were located inside the room and were water cooled so there was water around. I also remember the old IBM 3032 computers at my first site needed chilled water to operate so there was a lot of piped water going into the room. 
> 
> The FD did regular inspections and it didn't seem to bother them in either case.
> Funny, but Halon is outlawed and having it around did seem to bother them. It was replaced with some other gas system that i can't remember the name.
> 
> 
> 
>> On May 22, 2019, at 12:43 AM, Jim Manley via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> 
>> No firefighter in their right mind is going to knowingly pump a drop of
>> water anywhere near or in the direction of a data center, let alone into
>> it.  That's why they're equipped with Halon or other oxygen displacement,
>> cooling, and flame suppression systems, and the FDs are equipped with
>> appropriate Class 2 (Electrical) firefighting equipment.  FDs conduct
>> periodic inspections of all on-site fire-fighting equipment and the local
>> station shifts do walk-throughs to review their procedures.  If any
>> hazardous materials are present (guaranteed in a DC), they're also taken
>> into account.
>> 
>> The FDs that serve industrial sites are equipped to fight fires where the
>> fuels can range from paper through plastics, up to actual petrochemical
>> fuels.  I worked in the last semiconductor fab still operating in Silicon
>> Valley and worked with the City of Santa Clara FD on their plans, which had
>> to deal with the presence of extreme toxins and corrosives such as
>> hydrofluoric acid used to etch silicon wafers. They used to be responsible
>> for the Intel fab next door until it was shut down and the fab in
>> Hillsboro, OR, took over all R&D production.  They said it was a nightmare
>> waiting to happen because of the volume of extremely hazardous chemicals
>> used on-site.
>> 
>> Someone should be sued and go to prison for signing off on permits that
>> would allow water to get anywhere near a DC - it's a violation of the
>> National Electric Code, for starters.  If anyone sees something like that,
>> it should be reported immediately, and not within the organization, since
>> the facilities people are either incompetent or complicit in keeping quiet
>> about it.  That's what anonymous.hotlines are for, and the media, if no
>> action occurs with the hotlines - we're talking about the possibility of
>> serious injury and death here.
>> 
>> 
>> On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 11:12 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk <
>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> 
>>>> On 5/21/19 5:33 PM, Craig Ruff via cctech wrote:
>>>> The NCAR Wyoming Supercomputer Center has raised floors of about 20 feet.
>>> 
>>> Did the support posts go all the way down?  Or was there some sort of
>>> grid work that supported the raised floor above an open area that
>>> contained the PDUs?
>>> 
>>> I ask because the PDUs in the DC in my office are wider (and longer)
>>> than a floor tile.  As such, it would require some special
>>> accommodations if the support posts were 20 feet tall.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Grant. . . .
>>> unix || die
>>> 

From Wayne.Sudol at hotmail.com  Wed May 22 03:59:01 2019
From: Wayne.Sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne S)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2019 08:59:01 +0000
Subject: Raised Floors
In-Reply-To: <BYAPR01MB52234E7F44F39CC708ADCA61E4000@BYAPR01MB5223.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <mailman.3.1558458000.25203.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <814CC13B-EE7D-49C8-8E9B-ED5BA6EEC07A@ruffspot.net>
 <7eb6becf-675e-c14a-0636-710b44676e5b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>,
 <CAD2R3iuGorLw=XzE0L2Tkysc+i7ZwmoGr1r8mMwrBt7k_WrTgw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <BYAPR01MB5223EE95D7795EC0E4DDC441E4000@BYAPR01MB5223.prod.exchangelabs.com>,
 <BYAPR01MB52234E7F44F39CC708ADCA61E4000@BYAPR01MB5223.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <BYAPR01MB522319618DF409BE826881E5E4000@BYAPR01MB5223.prod.exchangelabs.com>

Have to rephrase what i said about the Liebert units being water cooled. They used water for humidity control not for cooling. They used regular refrigerant for that.
 

Wayne


> On May 22, 2019, at 1:50 AM, Wayne S <wayne.sudol at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> PS.. Sorry about the top posting. I'm old and i forgot.
> 
> 
> Wayne
> 
> 
>> On May 22, 2019, at 1:45 AM, Wayne S <wayne.sudol at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> All true. Just sayin' that water can get into the DC even when it's not intended. 
>> When fighting a fire in another part of a structure, the water may find it's way into the DC.  
>> 
>> Not sure about not allowing water to get near a dc, can you explain that statement?
>> The 2 Liebert a/c units that cooled the DC were located inside the room and were water cooled so there was water around. I also remember the old IBM 3032 computers at my first site needed chilled water to operate so there was a lot of piped water going into the room. 
>> 
>> The FD did regular inspections and it didn't seem to bother them in either case.
>> Funny, but Halon is outlawed and having it around did seem to bother them. It was replaced with some other gas system that i can't remember the name.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On May 22, 2019, at 12:43 AM, Jim Manley via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> No firefighter in their right mind is going to knowingly pump a drop of
>>> water anywhere near or in the direction of a data center, let alone into
>>> it.  That's why they're equipped with Halon or other oxygen displacement,
>>> cooling, and flame suppression systems, and the FDs are equipped with
>>> appropriate Class 2 (Electrical) firefighting equipment.  FDs conduct
>>> periodic inspections of all on-site fire-fighting equipment and the local
>>> station shifts do walk-throughs to review their procedures.  If any
>>> hazardous materials are present (guaranteed in a DC), they're also taken
>>> into account.
>>> 
>>> The FDs that serve industrial sites are equipped to fight fires where the
>>> fuels can range from paper through plastics, up to actual petrochemical
>>> fuels.  I worked in the last semiconductor fab still operating in Silicon
>>> Valley and worked with the City of Santa Clara FD on their plans, which had
>>> to deal with the presence of extreme toxins and corrosives such as
>>> hydrofluoric acid used to etch silicon wafers. They used to be responsible
>>> for the Intel fab next door until it was shut down and the fab in
>>> Hillsboro, OR, took over all R&D production.  They said it was a nightmare
>>> waiting to happen because of the volume of extremely hazardous chemicals
>>> used on-site.
>>> 
>>> Someone should be sued and go to prison for signing off on permits that
>>> would allow water to get anywhere near a DC - it's a violation of the
>>> National Electric Code, for starters.  If anyone sees something like that,
>>> it should be reported immediately, and not within the organization, since
>>> the facilities people are either incompetent or complicit in keeping quiet
>>> about it.  That's what anonymous.hotlines are for, and the media, if no
>>> action occurs with the hotlines - we're talking about the possibility of
>>> serious injury and death here.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 11:12 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk <
>>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>>>> On 5/21/19 5:33 PM, Craig Ruff via cctech wrote:
>>>>> The NCAR Wyoming Supercomputer Center has raised floors of about 20 feet.
>>>> 
>>>> Did the support posts go all the way down?  Or was there some sort of
>>>> grid work that supported the raised floor above an open area that
>>>> contained the PDUs?
>>>> 
>>>> I ask because the PDUs in the DC in my office are wider (and longer)
>>>> than a floor tile.  As such, it would require some special
>>>> accommodations if the support posts were 20 feet tall.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Grant. . . .
>>>> unix || die
>>>> 

From lproven at gmail.com  Wed May 22 04:33:58 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2019 11:33:58 +0200
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <20190522031653.GA32076@lonesome.com>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905211006190.1214@linuxserv.home>
 <7a6516c1-bf0d-4716-9f96-31cbca1e4fd9@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <20190522031653.GA32076@lonesome.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFSmDMP431w2aXjZjKXMe4-rys2XVoL4JSx4CifPELWKQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 22 May 2019 at 05:17, Mark Linimon via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 09:52:19AM -0600, Grant Taylor via cctech wrote:
> > I think Google and their YAWNs
>
> Definition, please?  Wikipedia and Urban Dictionary are no help.  A Google
> search itself is nothing but false positives.

FWIW, I had no clue either. I was hoping to work it out from context.
No joy so far.


-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From stefan.skoglund at agj.net  Wed May 22 05:57:29 2019
From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2019 12:57:29 +0200
Subject: Raised Floors
In-Reply-To: <BYAPR01MB5223EE95D7795EC0E4DDC441E4000@BYAPR01MB5223.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <mailman.3.1558458000.25203.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <814CC13B-EE7D-49C8-8E9B-ED5BA6EEC07A@ruffspot.net>
 <7eb6becf-675e-c14a-0636-710b44676e5b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 , <CAD2R3iuGorLw=XzE0L2Tkysc+i7ZwmoGr1r8mMwrBt7k_WrTgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <BYAPR01MB5223EE95D7795EC0E4DDC441E4000@BYAPR01MB5223.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <e4ff8bc7335e7658e6604966d8e33ada52bf44ef.camel@agj.net>

ons 2019-05-22 klockan 08:45 +0000 skrev Wayne S via cctalk:
> All true. Just sayin' that water can get into the DC even when it's
> not intended. 
> When fighting a fire in another part of a structure, the water may
> find it's way into the DC.  
> 
> Not sure about not allowing water to get near a dc, can you explain
> that statement?
> The 2 Liebert a/c units that cooled the DC were located inside the
> room and were water cooled so there was water around. I also remember
> the old IBM 3032 computers at my first site needed chilled water to
> operate so there was a lot of piped water going into the room. 
> 
> The FD did regular inspections and it didn't seem to bother them in
> either case.
> Funny, but Halon is outlawed and having it around did seem to bother
> them. It was replaced with some other gas system that i can't
> remember the name.
> 

It is a gas bottle with gas under pressure - they dont like getting hot
they become explosive in that case.

halon is also very much oxygen depriving ie asphyxiating.


From kspt.tor at gmail.com  Wed May 22 06:02:49 2019
From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2019 13:02:49 +0200
Subject: Raised Floors
In-Reply-To: <20ba4bc05321e3be03bfed1cff439a056ee4d42e.camel@agj.net>
References: <mailman.3.1558458000.25203.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <814CC13B-EE7D-49C8-8E9B-ED5BA6EEC07A@ruffspot.net>
 <7eb6becf-675e-c14a-0636-710b44676e5b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAD2R3iuGorLw=XzE0L2Tkysc+i7ZwmoGr1r8mMwrBt7k_WrTgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20ba4bc05321e3be03bfed1cff439a056ee4d42e.camel@agj.net>
Message-ID: <CAL1JhhzeE-TMSYp1H+Tv83ELha7VbXJ8m0YpmB7Fs=UKBbF+Fw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 22 May 2019 at 10:34, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> Halon should be completely and fully illegal in civilian installations.

In 1990 or 1991 I was inside a computer room when somebody
accidentally pushed an elbow into the fire emergency button.. and the
halon went off. Big room, many rows of tall racks. There were working
desks there too, so papers flew everywhere. I just ran for the
emergency exit door.
The folks in the roombs above later said they could feel the floor
coming up. This was a concrete building. All in all it was quite a
shocking experience.

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed May 22 07:28:31 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2019 08:28:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: M7264 Troubleshooting
Message-ID: <20190522122831.1103F18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Glen Slick

    > According to the M7270 LSI-11/2 Microcomputer Module User's Guid[e],
    > it uses BC1, BD1, BE1, BF1 for SCLK3 H, SWMIB18 H, SWMIB19 H, SWMIB20 H.

Oh, thanks! I wonder how I missed that, looking at the prints? (The
drawings have these nice dark arrowheads to indicate backplane
connections.) I just visually blew past it, I guess.

BH1 is also used there (for SWMIB21 H); and on the previous page, the STOP L
output is on AE1, and MTOE L (whatever that is) can be fed from AK1.

Not quite sure how a Q22 memory card causes the problem, electrically, since
those lines are inputs on the memory card, so it's an input<->input connection
(i.e. voltage sources in TTL), but obviously it does.

And I also don't see why Q18 cards are a problem; BDAL16 and 17 are
AC1 and AD1 respectively, which I don't see in the 'extra pins' list
for the LSI-11/2. Oh well, not too important to track it down.

Thanks again for catching my miss! Wow, it's been a loooong time since
I worked with an LSI-11 - about 40 years! :-)

	Noel

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Wed May 22 08:00:30 2019
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2019 09:00:30 -0400
Subject: Raised Floors
In-Reply-To: <e4ff8bc7335e7658e6604966d8e33ada52bf44ef.camel@agj.net>
References: <mailman.3.1558458000.25203.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <814CC13B-EE7D-49C8-8E9B-ED5BA6EEC07A@ruffspot.net>
 <7eb6becf-675e-c14a-0636-710b44676e5b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAD2R3iuGorLw=XzE0L2Tkysc+i7ZwmoGr1r8mMwrBt7k_WrTgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <BYAPR01MB5223EE95D7795EC0E4DDC441E4000@BYAPR01MB5223.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <e4ff8bc7335e7658e6604966d8e33ada52bf44ef.camel@agj.net>
Message-ID: <80963DAC-31D9-4516-AB2A-334AAFAA95F2@comcast.net>



> On May 22, 2019, at 6:57 AM, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> ons 2019-05-22 klockan 08:45 +0000 skrev Wayne S via cctalk:
>> ...
>> Funny, but Halon is outlawed and having it around did seem to bother
>> them. It was replaced with some other gas system that i can't
>> remember the name.
>> 
> 
> It is a gas bottle with gas under pressure - they dont like getting hot
> they become explosive in that case.

Nitrogen.  I remember seeing an installation with a whole row of compressed nitrogen bottles, looking a lot like a row of welding gas tanks.  It came with major warning signs about the danger to personnel when it goes off.

I think Halon is far less dangerous because it doesn't just work by displacing oxygen, though the details escape me.

	paul


From phb.hfx at gmail.com  Wed May 22 09:23:04 2019
From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2019 11:23:04 -0300
Subject: Raised Floors
In-Reply-To: <80963DAC-31D9-4516-AB2A-334AAFAA95F2@comcast.net>
References: <mailman.3.1558458000.25203.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <814CC13B-EE7D-49C8-8E9B-ED5BA6EEC07A@ruffspot.net>
 <7eb6becf-675e-c14a-0636-710b44676e5b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAD2R3iuGorLw=XzE0L2Tkysc+i7ZwmoGr1r8mMwrBt7k_WrTgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <BYAPR01MB5223EE95D7795EC0E4DDC441E4000@BYAPR01MB5223.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <e4ff8bc7335e7658e6604966d8e33ada52bf44ef.camel@agj.net>
 <80963DAC-31D9-4516-AB2A-334AAFAA95F2@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <bc9b7cb1-1957-15d8-e664-e555d0e88611@gmail.com>


On 2019-05-22 10:00 a.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
>
>> On May 22, 2019, at 6:57 AM, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> ons 2019-05-22 klockan 08:45 +0000 skrev Wayne S via cctalk:
>>> ...
>>> Funny, but Halon is outlawed and having it around did seem to bother
>>> them. It was replaced with some other gas system that i can't
>>> remember the name.
>>>
>> It is a gas bottle with gas under pressure - they dont like getting hot
>> they become explosive in that case.
> Nitrogen.  I remember seeing an installation with a whole row of compressed nitrogen bottles, looking a lot like a row of welding gas tanks.  It came with major warning signs about the danger to personnel when it goes off.
>
> I think Halon is far less dangerous because it doesn't just work by displacing oxygen, though the details escape me.
>
> 	paul
>
It was reputed that you could breath the halon making it easier to exit 
the room.? One of the big dangers from halon discharge in a room with a 
raised floor was the under floor nozzles would fling floor tiles up into 
the air and also raise a lot of dust.? A coworker that was in a room 
during a halon dump broke a leg falling into the hole left by a 
displaced tile while running for the door.? Most flooding systems gave a 
warning alarm before they actually discharged and had an override so 
that the automatic system could be stopped.? I was never in a room 
during a discharge but I have seen video of it.? I have also heard 
stories of it displacing enough floor tiles to affect the stability of 
the floor leading to a collapse of the floor supports and all the 
equipment ending up resting on top of cables and everything else under 
the floor.

Previously there where comments made about plumbing under the floor, in 
my experience it was pretty common for water cooled equipment and also 
for air conditioners that used chilled water for cooling.? The current 
water cooled systems I am familiar with have a coolant loop inside the 
rack that includes heat exchangers that? is separate from the building 
chilled water supply.? Inside the machines there are "water" blocks in 
direct contact with CPUs and memory and also sometimes the back door of 
the rack has a heat exchanger built into it.? Hot air exits out the back 
and is cooled by the back door the intent is to reduce the load on room 
air conditioning.

Paul.

Halon was banned because it was implicated as one of the chemicals that 
damaged the ozone layer.? I recall one customer that had a CO2 flooding 
system


From couryhouse at aol.com  Wed May 22 09:41:46 2019
From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2019 14:41:46 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: HP-01 calc watch go withs - brochures, t- shirts, booklets, ad
 copy who else collecting?
References: <1487561226.3589876.1558536106118.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1487561226.3589876.1558536106118@mail.yahoo.com>

well the? good? thing? is? Marc? with? turn over in? industrial? facilities? and? updating? tech...? ? what? you? are? looking? for? ?should? come? available at a? reasonable? ?price....? ?yikes? I? am amazed? how? cheaply? ? some of the normal? biological? scopes? ?go? ?for? ?now... we have been offloading? some? of? ours? ?from the? collection as? for? instance? with? a ziess standard? we? have? 3? and? ?really? should? only? have? one as? an? example....? ?they are? ?a partial? price? of? what? ?they would? have? been? 10? years? ago. Let? me? know? how? you? ?do.? looking? ?for? Nomarsk? ?stuff. We? ?do? not? have? any? extra. We? may? have? something? extra in? Nikon? ?with? Francion Yamatto? ?somewhere though,


Ed#
I? have? not? been? to may? ?auctions at? any of? the industrial? facilities or? auctioneers? ?in? years? to? look? ?for? ?hi? power? ?semiconductor? ?scopes? ?but? that? is? where? they? used to? show? up.
In a message dated 5/20/2019 10:36:40 PM US Mountain Standard Time, curiousmarc3 at gmail.com writes:

Nomarski microscopy, Ed. Differential phase contrast microscopy. Makes very small height differences (partial wavelength) on mostly planar objects pop out, and creates amazing color effects as a biproduct. Pretty much a stalwart of any good cleanroom microscope. Every manufacturer offers it, usually a pretty expensive option as all your optics have to be stress-free. I dream to own one of these one day.

Marc

?

From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of "cctalk at classiccmp.org" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Reply-To: "COURYHOUSE at aol.com" <couryhouse at aol.com>, "cctalk at classiccmp.org" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Date: Monday, May 20, 2019 at 11:20 AM
To: "COURYHOUSE at aol.com" <couryhouse at aol.com>, <spacewar at gmail.com>, "cctalk at classiccmp.org" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: HP-01 calc watch go withs - brochures, t- shirts, booklets, ad copy who else collecting?




should? say

?Francion Yamamotto? ?not ?Yrancion Yamamotto








In a message dated 5/20/2019 10:07:04 AM US Mountain Standard Time, couryhouse at aol.com writes:

Since? we? have? nice? microscopes at? the museum? project? we? were? hired? to? photo? some IC? innards? years? back. This? ended? up? becoming? a minor obsession? for? a short? time? as? the? artwork under? various? illuminations? is? fantastic.?








One of the things? that? seemed? to show the mots? difference in? detail between layers and highs? etc... was? differential? interference contrast? (after? nomorski (sp?) ( this? was on our? Ziess Ultraphot? and? seems? to be? a Zeiss? only? ? offering.0? ?on? the? Japanese? side of? things? Nikon? had? ?Yrancion Yamamotto (sp?)? method? which? seems? ?nice? ? but? I? preferred? the? ?Nomeriski.

Using? these? ?methods? you? may be? able? to extract? more usable? detail? ?than? with traditional methods.? ?and? wow? the? color? photos? are? ?frame-able!

But? ?kinda? what? I? wanted to mention? to is? depending? on? what? era? ?the chips? were? the? over? coatings? ? seemed? to? worsen? the view? the newer the chip? or? so? I? thought at the? time.










Such? great? ?fun? to? photo? ?the? little? ic innards!? ?even? a? standard? ?illum.? ?scope? with the? vertical? episcopic? illumination? gives? ?some? ? fun? photos? too,? especially? on the? earlier? ?chips.




Don't? know? if? any? of? ?this? will help on the? HP-01? roms? but? sure? was? fun to talk about? again

ed sharpe archivist for? smecc
















In a message dated 5/20/2019 9:00:09 AM US Mountain Standard Time, spacewar at gmail.com writes:

Only just within the last month I finally obtained a ROM dump from a production HP-01, for potential use in my Nonpareil simulator. Previously I only had the preproduction code listed in a US patent. I'm not sure when I'll have time to actually work on the simulation, though.

My original plan had been to crack open an HP-01 module and try to read the ROM bits optically, as Peter Monta did for the HP-35. However, that didn't work, probably due to a passivation coating on the ROM dies.




From couryhouse at aol.com  Wed May 22 09:43:07 2019
From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2019 14:43:07 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: HP-01 calc watch go withs - brochures, t- shirts, booklets, ad
 copy who else collecting?
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTTNxdy+iXxBOYvFYgPfwn8T3GLMDHzs7HXFe62n5f_F9g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <254279711.2098932.1558211547933.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <254279711.2098932.1558211547933@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAFrGgTTNxdy+iXxBOYvFYgPfwn8T3GLMDHzs7HXFe62n5f_F9g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1881097500.3578633.1558536187026@mail.yahoo.com>

is there any? ad? material? you? are? looking? for?
Ed#

In a message dated 5/20/2019 9:00:09 AM US Mountain Standard Time, spacewar at gmail.com writes:
Only just within the last month I finally obtained a ROM dump from a production HP-01, for potential use in my Nonpareil simulator. Previously I only had the preproduction code listed in a US patent. I'm not sure when I'll have time to actually work on the simulation, though.
My original plan had been to crack open an HP-01 module and try to read the ROM bits optically, as Peter Monta did for the HP-35. However, that didn't work, probably due to a passivation coating on the ROM dies.

From pat at vax11.net  Wed May 22 10:08:02 2019
From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2019 11:08:02 -0400
Subject: Raised Floors
In-Reply-To: <CAD2R3iuGorLw=XzE0L2Tkysc+i7ZwmoGr1r8mMwrBt7k_WrTgw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1558458000.25203.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <814CC13B-EE7D-49C8-8E9B-ED5BA6EEC07A@ruffspot.net>
 <7eb6becf-675e-c14a-0636-710b44676e5b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAD2R3iuGorLw=XzE0L2Tkysc+i7ZwmoGr1r8mMwrBt7k_WrTgw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAADZ-4MDD5A9jfRrZkSvQdi10DPtfbUFr2E-u5uzCiVWBQtmnA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 3:43 AM Jim Manley via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> Someone should be sued and go to prison for signing off on permits that
> would allow water to get anywhere near a DC - it's a violation of the
> National Electric Code, for starters.  If anyone sees something like that,
> it should be reported immediately, and not within the organization, since
> the facilities people are either incompetent or complicit in keeping quiet
> about it.  That's what anonymous.hotlines are for, and the media, if no
> action occurs with the hotlines - we're talking about the possibility of
> serious injury and death here.
>

Purdue's insurer REQUIRES fire sprinklers in data centers.  And it's not
atypical from what I've heard.  They are all dry, pre-action systems, which
eliminate most of the danger of it accidentally dumping water.  It's
unlikely that with a dry pipe, pre-action system water will be dumped
somewhere that a person is standing without warning[0]. These days,
equipment is easy to replace (compared to classic systems) given a good DR
plan and a good insurance provider.

The NEC also requires[1] an EPO system to shut off all power sources
(including any UPS).  I'm pretty sure that any fire that required a hose to
be pulled off of a truck would first result in the power being shut off.

The experiences that I've had with non-water based fire suppression systems
is that they're way too twitchy, and likely to go off because (another[2])
HPE server in the datacenter released its magic smoke.  Standard sprinklers
only affect the area where the fire set them off, and don't have to douse
your whole multi-1000 sq ft data center.

0. Generally, multiple smoke/heat detectors have to be triggered before the
sprinkler system is charged with water.

1. The NEC isn't always followed when management decides there should be an
exception.  Insurance company guidelines are followed because not following
them has a tangible cost.  No one is going to be sued/go to prison for
this, at least here.

2. In our experience, HPE servers tend to (internally) catch fire and
release smoke at a rate of around 10-to-1 vs the Dell servers we've had.

Pat
(Standing back and looking at the mess he made of cctalk... Sorry, Jay.)

From pat at vax11.net  Wed May 22 10:23:11 2019
From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2019 11:23:11 -0400
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905220939510.14243@linuxserv.home>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905211006190.1214@linuxserv.home>
 <CAADZ-4PhEL2asoTAzNe27+aHt7Fdoa+cm1+ZAm3k+YmqddA8Qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905220939510.14243@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <CAADZ-4ONCV5sqUUJXXNK5pEVBJ1dKPuAnMZgfR5Of4y6Y8xg9Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 3:50 AM Christian Corti via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Tue, 21 May 2019, Patrick Finnegan wrote:
> > Plumbing (unless you're doing aisle containment or RDHx) shouldn't run
> > through the IT space in the data center.
>
> So how exactly do you attach a modern water cooled rack system to your
> cooling water system if not using plumbing?
>

I guess I should have added "etc" to my exception list?  My point was that
air handlers, CRACs, etc, should not have their plumbing running through
the data center since they should be outside in a mechanical room anyways.


> > Cooling water to racks should be dewpoint adjusted, so you don't need
> > condensate drains inside the DC.
>
> That is a requirement, you must have condensate drains just in case that
> the room temperature and/or air humidity rises, or cooling water
> temperature goes below the dew point.
>

For what we do, It's not, we don't do that, and our equipment suppliers
don't suggest it.  The air is humidity controlled before it gets near the
IT racks, by building air handlers and CRAC units.

Our process water loop inside the room watches the humidity and adjusts the
water temperature appropriately.  It'd be hard to for the dewpoint to
change rapidly enough to cause condensation vs how quickly systems can
increase the water temperature to compensate.

Modern systems using direct-to-system water cooling also tend to use "warm
water" cooling, since they don't need water below ~90F (~32C) to cool
effectively (some specify up to ~104F (~40C).  RIP the data center that has
a dewpoint that high, since the servers will probably be covered in rust
pretty quickly.

Pat

From pat at vax11.net  Wed May 22 10:30:13 2019
From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2019 11:30:13 -0400
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <71591fc5-a561-c04d-bfb7-182e7e66c465@sydex.com>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905211006190.1214@linuxserv.home>
 <CAADZ-4PhEL2asoTAzNe27+aHt7Fdoa+cm1+ZAm3k+YmqddA8Qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905220939510.14243@linuxserv.home>
 <71591fc5-a561-c04d-bfb7-182e7e66c465@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAADZ-4Ny9LxByMA9aO-+_wopjfOkwu4OrBQAALt01M+rLTwKsg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 4:24 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 5/22/19 12:49 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:
> > On Tue, 21 May 2019, Patrick Finnegan wrote:
> >> Plumbing (unless you're doing aisle containment or RDHx) shouldn't run
> >> through the IT space in the data center.
> >
> > So how exactly do you attach a modern water cooled rack system to your
> > cooling water system if not using plumbing?
>
> So how are data centers cooled with water now?  Does the water cool
> coldplates directly?
>

That's an option.  I support 20-30kW/rack systems with using Coolcentric
(passive) rear door heat exchangers, which have a dewpoint-adjusted cooling
loop.  The air is generally managed using CRAC units / building air
handlers.


> I recall visiting the Honeywell plant in Phoenix not long after they
> took it over from GE and the engineers there were tinkering with a
> direct water-cooling setup--water circulated in each rack (connected by
> what was probably vinyl tubing, I don't recall, only that it was
> translucent), with copper diaphragms serving as the interface between
> the water and the semiconductors.  I recall from comments made that
> algae was a problem and adding an algicide to the cooling water tended
> to corrode the copper diaphragms.
>

New versions of that are made by companies such as Cool-IT, or HPE's SGI
systems.  The materials used have progressed quite a bit, mostly
eliminating the algae and corrosion problems, and people have mostly
settled on ~25-40C (77-104F) water for cooling, to avoid condensing
humidity.

Pat

From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Wed May 22 10:30:56 2019
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2019 17:30:56 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Raised Floors
In-Reply-To: <71591fc5-a561-c04d-bfb7-182e7e66c465@sydex.com>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905211006190.1214@linuxserv.home>
 <CAADZ-4PhEL2asoTAzNe27+aHt7Fdoa+cm1+ZAm3k+YmqddA8Qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905220939510.14243@linuxserv.home>
 <71591fc5-a561-c04d-bfb7-182e7e66c465@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905221726010.18347@linuxserv.home>

On Wed, 22 May 2019, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> So how are data centers cooled with water now?  Does the water cool
> coldplates directly?

Sort of, see for example the Rittal LCP system.

> I've had only a couple of instances where cooling water was used.  In

All current high-density rack systems need liquid cooling. I want to 
remind that a single rack may produce 10kW of heat or more.

> the case of CDC mainframes, it was used to cool the condenser coils in
> the refrigeration units (located in the mainframe).  I believe that Cray
> initially used the same guy that CDC used to fabricate the cooling tubing.

That is how todays rack systems work.

Christian

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Wed May 22 10:41:31 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2019 09:41:31 -0600
Subject: Raised Floors
In-Reply-To: <CAADZ-4MDD5A9jfRrZkSvQdi10DPtfbUFr2E-u5uzCiVWBQtmnA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1558458000.25203.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <814CC13B-EE7D-49C8-8E9B-ED5BA6EEC07A@ruffspot.net>
 <7eb6becf-675e-c14a-0636-710b44676e5b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAD2R3iuGorLw=XzE0L2Tkysc+i7ZwmoGr1r8mMwrBt7k_WrTgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAADZ-4MDD5A9jfRrZkSvQdi10DPtfbUFr2E-u5uzCiVWBQtmnA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a6959d96-7449-6743-c87d-488dd1519bad@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 5/22/19 9:08 AM, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk wrote:
> Purdue's insurer REQUIRES fire sprinklers in data centers.

Both of the data centers / raised floors in my office have fire 
sprinklers.  I don't know if they lines are charged or dry.  (I'll inquire.)

The local fire department does a walk through spot check quarterly (if 
not more frequent b/c we give them lunch in our cafeteria) and annual 
full inspection of the fire detection and suppression system.

I also know for a fact that the DCs do have plumbing under the raised 
floor because I've heard talk about an automatic drain flush system that 
was historically used.  (I'm not sure it's used any more.)  I've also 
heard the maintenance crew talk about taking five gallon buckets of 
water into the DC to manually flush drains.

I've also heard of not infrequent stories of condensation from 
(overhead) air ducts dripping in the DC.

There's also the occasional leak during a heavy storm where non-trivial 
amounts of water come in through said duct work.

I've got a different horror story from a job 20 years ago where water 
would seep through the sidewalk onto an old IBM mainframe.  They kept 
plastic up most of the time and had drip trays with drain connections 
that sat on top of equipment.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Wed May 22 10:45:09 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2019 09:45:09 -0600
Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system....
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905220937040.14243@linuxserv.home>
References: <20190520143900.BD0F918C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAADZ-4N=3f8C1rcodotJBdO1cLQoP_Ct7EF+AWR6pFGxL9w4_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905211006190.1214@linuxserv.home>
 <7a6516c1-bf0d-4716-9f96-31cbca1e4fd9@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905220937040.14243@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <92de1454-d219-e4f7-fff2-18b396aaae47@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 5/22/19 1:38 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:
> I'm not Google, I can't put my infrastructure in the Arctic to reduce my 
> cooling needs.

Google has infrastructure all over the world.  Most of the locations 
require active cooling year round.  A quick Google search turns up the 
following maps:

Link - Map of all Google data center locations
  - https://royal.pingdom.com/map-of-all-google-data-center-locations/

There may be a few data centers in the northern hemisphere that are in a 
temperate ~ cold climate.  But I don't see any in the Arctic.

Also, Google wants the infrastructure as close to the end users as 
reasonably possible.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net  Wed May 22 10:56:43 2019
From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2019 16:56:43 +0100
Subject: Apple ][+ Keyboard
In-Reply-To: <a6959d96-7449-6743-c87d-488dd1519bad@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <mailman.3.1558458000.25203.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <814CC13B-EE7D-49C8-8E9B-ED5BA6EEC07A@ruffspot.net>
 <7eb6becf-675e-c14a-0636-710b44676e5b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAD2R3iuGorLw=XzE0L2Tkysc+i7ZwmoGr1r8mMwrBt7k_WrTgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAADZ-4MDD5A9jfRrZkSvQdi10DPtfbUFr2E-u5uzCiVWBQtmnA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a6959d96-7449-6743-c87d-488dd1519bad@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <CAEvVyqFEjyEtrFeB9Drx3pTeoGqJDV+7iLTfgfcAGVjpKmd3eQ@mail.gmail.com>

I feel like I'm falling down a rabbit hole with this old ][ europlus I've
had for years.

The smoke came out of the power supply, so I replaced it with one from
ReactiveMicro.  Now it boots, and was working okay, until this morning.
Now, no keyboard <except> if you hit ctrl-reset.  All other keys are
ignored.

Anyone have any ideas? (:

Thanks,

John (aka Mark)

From brian at marstella.net  Wed May 22 11:00:03 2019
From: brian at marstella.net (Brian Marstella)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2019 12:00:03 -0400
Subject: Apple ][+ Keyboard
In-Reply-To: <CAEvVyqFEjyEtrFeB9Drx3pTeoGqJDV+7iLTfgfcAGVjpKmd3eQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1558458000.25203.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <814CC13B-EE7D-49C8-8E9B-ED5BA6EEC07A@ruffspot.net>
 <7eb6becf-675e-c14a-0636-710b44676e5b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAD2R3iuGorLw=XzE0L2Tkysc+i7ZwmoGr1r8mMwrBt7k_WrTgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAADZ-4MDD5A9jfRrZkSvQdi10DPtfbUFr2E-u5uzCiVWBQtmnA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a6959d96-7449-6743-c87d-488dd1519bad@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAEvVyqFEjyEtrFeB9Drx3pTeoGqJDV+7iLTfgfcAGVjpKmd3eQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPmgNjXAPHFh4sQ=DcbJOn_4DZeQM9BrLiQJstZBa8HgE6mt-g@mail.gmail.com>

Just ran across this a few days ago on different search...

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.sys.apple2/kJ4SosdZTb4

May have some helpful info.

On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 11:56 AM John Many Jars via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I feel like I'm falling down a rabbit hole with this old ][ europlus I've
> had for years.
>
> The smoke came out of the power supply, so I replaced it with one from
> ReactiveMicro.  Now it boots, and was working okay, until this morning.
> Now, no keyboard <except> if you hit ctrl-reset.  All other keys are
> ignored.
>
> Anyone have any ideas? (:
>
> Thanks,
>
> John (aka Mark)
>

From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com  Wed May 22 15:27:27 2019
From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2019 13:27:27 -0700
Subject: apollo psa test point adaptor
In-Reply-To: <5CE16C28.1000505@pico-systems.com>
References: <CAA3rs22yBQep3_z5U+40Nm=34nni5w9vu-aHB8m29nw2WqDU2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5CE16C28.1000505@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <3A198E6E-0CF9-419F-9CDA-07176365B427@gmail.com>

It?s hard to find documentation for the ground test equipment apparently. The flyable hardware is very well documented, and Mike Stewart and co. are in the process of scanning it all at NARA. I can glean a few things from the markings on your picture. The PSA, or Power and Servo Assembly, had all the analog electronics for the Inertial Measurement Units and the star alignment optics, namely the scanning telescope and the sextant and the 3 pendulum accelerometers or PIPAs. It was a very large beast having maybe 100 modules, all the DC, 800Hz and 3200 Hz power supplies for the gyros and resolvers, the servo amplifiers for the 3 axes of the Inertial Measurement Unit, and the various temperature controllers. The test points give you access to internal key test points in the PSA to such things as the inertial measurement unit 3 gimbal error signals, the Scanning Telescope and Sextant optics trunnion and shaft error, corresponding servo test inputs (so you could rotate the gimbals or the optics), all the temperature monitors (there are many). 

 

There are two types of PSAs, one for the CM and one from the LM. Yours mentions SCT (Scanning Optical Telescope) and SXT (Sextant), and only the Command Module had a sextant, so we can pretty much tell this is a command module PSA test unit. There are also two very different revisions of the PSAs, Block I and Block II. Looking at the Block II PSA description (find it in the ND-1021043 manual), it appeared to have two test connectors, J1 and J2, 61 pins each. But your tester breaks out 195 test points. The Block I seems to have more test pins, but I haven?t yet found the exact description. So my guess is that it is a Block I tester. 

 

Reading from the top: TB1 to TB5 ? my guess is that this is a breakout of 5 test connectors at the back of the PSA. A guess only, I don?t have the doc to confirm it. You put a voltmeter or a signal in these pins to measure your test point of put a signal into it. Pulse Probe, Direct Probe, Buffered Probe: I don?t know. The lowest left corner seems to deal with testing the servos, 3 at a time. If you are in the ISS (inertial sensing system) position, you?d probably move the 3 gimbal servos of the IMU. If you have it in the OPT position, you?d move the 3 axes of the optics which you can see on the other buttons, the SCT trunnion and the SXT trunnion and shaft. Apparently each of them has a slow or fast setting (that?s how I read 1:1 and 1:10 markings). The large commutator in the middle marked IRIG S.F. may be referring to the Integrating Inertial Reference Integrating Gyro Scale Factor monitoring. These are resistors networks that contained the calibration of the individual gyros. Problem is, there were 3 gyros and the knob has 5 positions, so that does not make a whole lot of sense to me. ?

 

If it?s indeed a Block I tester, then I have a one of the Block I PSA trays it connects to. I was planning to used with my IRIG gyro, so the tester could potentially be useful to the project, if you were to lend it to us before you modify it. But probably not essential, as we can always break out the connectors ourselves (although it would be way less cool). And playing with the PSA is probably not going to happen for a while. It would be interesting to open it up and see if we could glean more insight from looking at the innards, and thoroughly document it before you modify it, so we can at least reproduce it.

 

Marc 

 

 

From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of "cctalk at classiccmp.org" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Reply-To: Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com>, "cctalk at classiccmp.org" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Date: Sunday, May 19, 2019 at 7:46 AM
To: Adrian Stoness <tdk.knight at gmail.com>, <General at ezwind.net>, "cctalk at classiccmp.org" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: apollo psa test point adaptor

 

On 05/18/2019 10:08 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:

anyone know where i could find manual or drawings on this im up in northern

manitoba canada picked it up at a rr auction to experiment with as a audio

interface not sure if the jacks on the side are the weird pins nasa had or

another standard i can find?

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/albums/72157705166193482

 

There's a switch labeled "IRIG" which stands for Inter Range 

Instrumentation Group, and refers to a standard for 

telemetry encoding.  There is a standard for time code, a 

standard for modulating analog signas onto a bunch of FM 

carriers, and a standard for multiplexing several analog 

signals onto one FM carrier.

 

Apollo documents are probably VERY hard to come by these days.

 

Jon

 


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed May 22 17:04:55 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2019 18:04:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: M7264 Troubleshooting
Message-ID: <20190522220455.8175C18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > On the LSI-11/2, with the machine stopped, 'run' was off, and the
    > output on AF1/AH1 was always high (i.e. not asserted).
    > I don't have any guesses as to what the behaviour of yours is about.

Hah! Eureka! I had a brainwave, and decided to look at my machine with
the serial console board pulled out!

I then get the exact same behaviour on SRUN as you're seeing - a very brief
spike every so often (about every 25 usec, here).


So I'd be looking pretty hard at your DLV11-E; start by making sure it is
configured correctly.

Past that, you'll need prints; Manx claims there aren't any online, but there
are a set in the jumbo assemblage, ET-LSI-11 (MP00706); the DLV11-E prints are
on pp. 31-37.

All you have to do to get a nice 'scope loop is to power the machine on; the
CPU will dutifully try and read the RCSR, in a fairly tight loop.


Probably worth picking up a spare DLV11 of some type for fault localization
via board-swapping/etc; DLV11-J's can be found on eBait for not a large sum.

    Noel

From elson at pico-systems.com  Wed May 22 20:16:51 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2019 20:16:51 -0500
Subject: M7264 Troubleshooting
In-Reply-To: <20190522220455.8175C18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190522220455.8175C18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <5CE5F483.4070401@pico-systems.com>

On 05/22/2019 05:04 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
>      > On the LSI-11/2, with the machine stopped, 'run' was off, and the
>      > output on AF1/AH1 was always high (i.e. not asserted).
>      > I don't have any guesses as to what the behaviour of yours is about.
>
> Hah! Eureka! I had a brainwave, and decided to look at my machine with
> the serial console board pulled out!
>
> I then get the exact same behaviour on SRUN as you're seeing - a very brief
> spike every so often (about every 25 usec, here).
>
Yes, this is most likely a bus timeout as the console 
firmware is polling the serial module, and that module is 
apparently not acknowledging the request.

Jon

From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Wed May 22 23:38:53 2019
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 00:38:53 -0400
Subject: FTGH - VAX Datatrieve binders
Message-ID: <5f55fc70-554b-accb-ddff-dbb03dcc4e2c@telegraphics.com.au>

These four binders are in Toronto, Canada.

* VAX DATATRIEVE - User's Guide
* VAX DATATRIEVE - Handbook
* VAX DATATRIEVE - Reference Manual
* VAX DATATRIEVE - Guide to Writing Reports, Guide to Using Graphics,
Guide to Programming and Customizing

But I don't see on bitsavers -- Can anyone else confirm? I have the
ability to ADF scan before recycling. Or can ship to anyone prepared to
pay cost.

--Toby

From cruff at ruffspot.net  Wed May 22 18:46:55 2019
From: cruff at ruffspot.net (Craig Ruff)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2019 17:46:55 -0600
Subject: Raised Floors
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1558544400.99756.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.3.1558544400.99756.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <685FC4DC-CCF3-4585-BE6D-421B54D4E872@ruffspot.net>


> On May 22, 2019, at 11:00 AM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote:
> From: Grant Taylor <cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net>
> 
> On 5/21/19 5:33 PM, Craig Ruff via cctech wrote:
>> The NCAR Wyoming Supercomputer Center has raised floors of about 20 feet.
> 
> Did the support posts go all the way down?  Or was there some sort of 
> grid work that supported the raised floor above an open area that 
> contained the PDUs?

It was moderately open below the floor, there are columns that support the grid.  I looked, but I don't have a picture in the under floor area when I was up there years ago, and didn't see anything obvious on the NCAR or Wyoming web sites.  There is a video at https://www.youtube.com/embed/u4H7U5Weopw <https://www.youtube.com/embed/u4H7U5Weopw> that shows some of the support equipment briefly, but not the underfloor area.

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Wed May 22 23:03:04 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2019 22:03:04 -0600
Subject: Raised Floors
In-Reply-To: <685FC4DC-CCF3-4585-BE6D-421B54D4E872@ruffspot.net>
References: <mailman.3.1558544400.99756.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <685FC4DC-CCF3-4585-BE6D-421B54D4E872@ruffspot.net>
Message-ID: <33bb1fcd-f999-1d64-d301-a1f7659ff6e3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 5/22/19 5:46 PM, Craig Ruff via cctech wrote:
> It was moderately open below the floor, there are columns that 
> support the grid.

The raised floor at work has posts (I guess you could call them columns) 
at the corner of every tile that run down to the floor.  This is why I'm 
asking if the posts / columns that you're talking about were in a 2'x2' 
grid or if that grid was supported by something else that had wider spacing.

> I looked, but I don't have a picture in the under floor 
> area when I was up there years ago, and didn't see anything 
> obvious on the NCAR or Wyoming web sites.

ACK

> There is a video at https://www.youtube.com/embed/u4H7U5Weopw that 
> shows some of the support equipment briefly, but not the underfloor 
> area.

That was ? a different video.  I feel like it was more of a marketing 
slick / public relations type thing.  There was exceptionally little 
detail, and what I did see was massively watered down.  I feel like 
technical terms were purposefully taken out of the video.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu May 23 07:14:25 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 08:14:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: M7264 Troubleshooting
Message-ID: <20190523121425.E6D7018C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Jon Elson

    > Yes, this is most likely a bus timeout

The good news is that it looks like his CPU is 'mostly' working; and if
the NXM is due to a fault on the CPU (e.g. bad bus transceiver sending
the wrong address), that would be fixable (it uses 8641's).

If the fault is in the DLV11-E (and not just misconfiguration), depending on
where the fault is, he might be out of luck with that card; it uses DC005's
for transceivers, which of course are unobtainium now. Still, QBUS serial
interfaces are not rare.

And overall, progress is being made! :-)

    Noel

From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net  Thu May 23 07:22:50 2019
From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars)
Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 13:22:50 +0100
Subject: Apple ][+ Keyboard
In-Reply-To: <CAPmgNjXAPHFh4sQ=DcbJOn_4DZeQM9BrLiQJstZBa8HgE6mt-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1558458000.25203.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <814CC13B-EE7D-49C8-8E9B-ED5BA6EEC07A@ruffspot.net>
 <7eb6becf-675e-c14a-0636-710b44676e5b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAD2R3iuGorLw=XzE0L2Tkysc+i7ZwmoGr1r8mMwrBt7k_WrTgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAADZ-4MDD5A9jfRrZkSvQdi10DPtfbUFr2E-u5uzCiVWBQtmnA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a6959d96-7449-6743-c87d-488dd1519bad@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAEvVyqFEjyEtrFeB9Drx3pTeoGqJDV+7iLTfgfcAGVjpKmd3eQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPmgNjXAPHFh4sQ=DcbJOn_4DZeQM9BrLiQJstZBa8HgE6mt-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEvVyqGX0xsorZmYD6kNigDBPmb-d+25M-4cEOdrbGSR_=sdcA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Brian,

That's an interesting thread.  It probably is the encoder chip as hitting
Ctrl-Reset works.  Unfortunately Briel Computers doesn't seem to exist
anymore. ):

This seems like a temporary solution.  I need to collect the stuff to build
one:

https://knzl.at/ps2-keyboard-for-apple-ii/

Thanks!

Mark

On Wed, 22 May 2019 at 17:00, Brian Marstella <brian at marstella.net> wrote:

> Just ran across this a few days ago on different search...
>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.sys.apple2/kJ4SosdZTb4
>
> May have some helpful info.
>
> On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 11:56 AM John Many Jars via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> I feel like I'm falling down a rabbit hole with this old ][ europlus I've
>> had for years.
>>
>> The smoke came out of the power supply, so I replaced it with one from
>> ReactiveMicro.  Now it boots, and was working okay, until this morning.
>> Now, no keyboard <except> if you hit ctrl-reset.  All other keys are
>> ignored.
>>
>> Anyone have any ideas? (:
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> John (aka Mark)
>>
>

-- 
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems:  "The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net

--------
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift

From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com  Thu May 23 07:33:26 2019
From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza)
Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 09:33:26 -0300
Subject: Apple ][+ Keyboard
In-Reply-To: <CAEvVyqGX0xsorZmYD6kNigDBPmb-d+25M-4cEOdrbGSR_=sdcA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1558458000.25203.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <814CC13B-EE7D-49C8-8E9B-ED5BA6EEC07A@ruffspot.net>
 <7eb6becf-675e-c14a-0636-710b44676e5b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAD2R3iuGorLw=XzE0L2Tkysc+i7ZwmoGr1r8mMwrBt7k_WrTgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAADZ-4MDD5A9jfRrZkSvQdi10DPtfbUFr2E-u5uzCiVWBQtmnA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a6959d96-7449-6743-c87d-488dd1519bad@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAEvVyqFEjyEtrFeB9Drx3pTeoGqJDV+7iLTfgfcAGVjpKmd3eQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPmgNjXAPHFh4sQ=DcbJOn_4DZeQM9BrLiQJstZBa8HgE6mt-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEvVyqGX0xsorZmYD6kNigDBPmb-d+25M-4cEOdrbGSR_=sdcA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANdZFKQhasEWJ_HNPW3KVHCdm9NEQ=Di0_XB0KBhbhSKP9LbwQ@mail.gmail.com>

- There are lots of PS2 adapters on the market, I made one myself
- There are lots of PS2 to apple II schematics avaiable. One of them uses
just ONE PIC ?C
- The keyboard encoder was reverse-engineered by Victor Trucco, and I
believe I've seen others around

Lots of options :)

---8<---Corte aqui---8<---
http://www.tabajara-labs.blogspot.com
http://www.tabalabs.com.br
---8<---Corte aqui---8<---


Em qui, 23 de mai de 2019 ?s 09:22, John Many Jars via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> escreveu:

> Hi Brian,
>
> That's an interesting thread.  It probably is the encoder chip as hitting
> Ctrl-Reset works.  Unfortunately Briel Computers doesn't seem to exist
> anymore. ):
>
> This seems like a temporary solution.  I need to collect the stuff to build
> one:
>
> https://knzl.at/ps2-keyboard-for-apple-ii/
>
> Thanks!
>
> Mark
>
> On Wed, 22 May 2019 at 17:00, Brian Marstella <brian at marstella.net> wrote:
>
> > Just ran across this a few days ago on different search...
> >
> > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.sys.apple2/kJ4SosdZTb4
> >
> > May have some helpful info.
> >
> > On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 11:56 AM John Many Jars via cctalk <
> > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> >> I feel like I'm falling down a rabbit hole with this old ][ europlus
> I've
> >> had for years.
> >>
> >> The smoke came out of the power supply, so I replaced it with one from
> >> ReactiveMicro.  Now it boots, and was working okay, until this morning.
> >> Now, no keyboard <except> if you hit ctrl-reset.  All other keys are
> >> ignored.
> >>
> >> Anyone have any ideas? (:
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> John (aka Mark)
> >>
> >
>
> --
> Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems:  "The Future Begins Tomorrow"
> Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net
>
> --------
> "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
> that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift
>

From mattislind at gmail.com  Thu May 23 07:38:25 2019
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 14:38:25 +0200
Subject: M7264 Troubleshooting
In-Reply-To: <20190523121425.E6D7018C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190523121425.E6D7018C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CABr82SLyW5unA40vqf2_L_T6u+1cKEcLpLHyi-AXH+ZNj-Q_1w@mail.gmail.com>

Den tors 23 maj 2019 kl 14:14 skrev Noel Chiappa via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org>:

>     > From: Jon Elson
>
>     > Yes, this is most likely a bus timeout
>
> The good news is that it looks like his CPU is 'mostly' working; and if
> the NXM is due to a fault on the CPU (e.g. bad bus transceiver sending
> the wrong address), that would be fixable (it uses 8641's).
>
> If the fault is in the DLV11-E (and not just misconfiguration), depending
> on
> where the fault is, he might be out of luck with that card; it uses DC005's
> for transceivers, which of course are unobtainium now.


Not really unobtainium: https://www.ebay.com/itm/281679682476 and
https://www.ebay.com/itm/253305313497

These DC0xx chips can sometimes be found on Ebay under their Signetics name.

DC003 C2293N
DC004 C2301N
DC005 C2324N
DC006 C2345N
DC010 C2344N




> Still, QBUS serial
> interfaces are not rare.
>
> And overall, progress is being made! :-)
>
>     Noel
>

/Mattis

From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com  Thu May 23 08:08:02 2019
From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham)
Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 14:08:02 +0100
Subject: Apple ][+ Keyboard
In-Reply-To: <CAEvVyqGX0xsorZmYD6kNigDBPmb-d+25M-4cEOdrbGSR_=sdcA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1558458000.25203.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <814CC13B-EE7D-49C8-8E9B-ED5BA6EEC07A@ruffspot.net>
 <7eb6becf-675e-c14a-0636-710b44676e5b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAD2R3iuGorLw=XzE0L2Tkysc+i7ZwmoGr1r8mMwrBt7k_WrTgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAADZ-4MDD5A9jfRrZkSvQdi10DPtfbUFr2E-u5uzCiVWBQtmnA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a6959d96-7449-6743-c87d-488dd1519bad@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAEvVyqFEjyEtrFeB9Drx3pTeoGqJDV+7iLTfgfcAGVjpKmd3eQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPmgNjXAPHFh4sQ=DcbJOn_4DZeQM9BrLiQJstZBa8HgE6mt-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEvVyqGX0xsorZmYD6kNigDBPmb-d+25M-4cEOdrbGSR_=sdcA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGix5N=wZtEp-AsT1vgN4QOKdUjoTR1eBp2YEc--P=eBAWO0Ow@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Mark,

I have a contact in Belgium who has made some PS2 adapter PCBs if you'd
like me to put you in contact, he was advertising them on Facebook a week
or so ago.

-- 
adrian/witchy
Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer
collection?
t: @binarydinosaurs    f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs
w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk


On Thu, 23 May 2019 at 13:22, John Many Jars via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Hi Brian,
>
> That's an interesting thread.  It probably is the encoder chip as hitting
> Ctrl-Reset works.  Unfortunately Briel Computers doesn't seem to exist
> anymore. ):
>
> This seems like a temporary solution.  I need to collect the stuff to build
> one:
>
> https://knzl.at/ps2-keyboard-for-apple-ii/
>
> Thanks!
>
> Mark
>
> On Wed, 22 May 2019 at 17:00, Brian Marstella <brian at marstella.net> wrote:
>
> > Just ran across this a few days ago on different search...
> >
> > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.sys.apple2/kJ4SosdZTb4
> >
> > May have some helpful info.
> >
> > On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 11:56 AM John Many Jars via cctalk <
> > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> >> I feel like I'm falling down a rabbit hole with this old ][ europlus
> I've
> >> had for years.
> >>
> >> The smoke came out of the power supply, so I replaced it with one from
> >> ReactiveMicro.  Now it boots, and was working okay, until this morning.
> >> Now, no keyboard <except> if you hit ctrl-reset.  All other keys are
> >> ignored.
> >>
> >> Anyone have any ideas? (:
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> John (aka Mark)
> >>
> >
>
> --
> Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems:  "The Future Begins Tomorrow"
> Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net
>
> --------
> "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
> that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift
>

From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net  Thu May 23 09:01:58 2019
From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars)
Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 15:01:58 +0100
Subject: Apple ][+ Keyboard
In-Reply-To: <CAGix5N=wZtEp-AsT1vgN4QOKdUjoTR1eBp2YEc--P=eBAWO0Ow@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1558458000.25203.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <814CC13B-EE7D-49C8-8E9B-ED5BA6EEC07A@ruffspot.net>
 <7eb6becf-675e-c14a-0636-710b44676e5b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAD2R3iuGorLw=XzE0L2Tkysc+i7ZwmoGr1r8mMwrBt7k_WrTgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAADZ-4MDD5A9jfRrZkSvQdi10DPtfbUFr2E-u5uzCiVWBQtmnA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a6959d96-7449-6743-c87d-488dd1519bad@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAEvVyqFEjyEtrFeB9Drx3pTeoGqJDV+7iLTfgfcAGVjpKmd3eQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPmgNjXAPHFh4sQ=DcbJOn_4DZeQM9BrLiQJstZBa8HgE6mt-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEvVyqGX0xsorZmYD6kNigDBPmb-d+25M-4cEOdrbGSR_=sdcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGix5N=wZtEp-AsT1vgN4QOKdUjoTR1eBp2YEc--P=eBAWO0Ow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEvVyqE3eYiu+mXNVOOiYtnd+5dB-e1-uDmssEvv1Wpf13MSUw@mail.gmail.com>

That would be great.  I'd really appreciate it.

On Thu, 23 May 2019 at 14:08, Adrian Graham via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Hi Mark,
>
> I have a contact in Belgium who has made some PS2 adapter PCBs if you'd
> like me to put you in contact, he was advertising them on Facebook a week
> or so ago.
>
> --
> adrian/witchy
> Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer
> collection?
> t: @binarydinosaurs    f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs
> w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk
>
>
> On Thu, 23 May 2019 at 13:22, John Many Jars via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > Hi Brian,
> >
> > That's an interesting thread.  It probably is the encoder chip as hitting
> > Ctrl-Reset works.  Unfortunately Briel Computers doesn't seem to exist
> > anymore. ):
> >
> > This seems like a temporary solution.  I need to collect the stuff to
> build
> > one:
> >
> > https://knzl.at/ps2-keyboard-for-apple-ii/
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > On Wed, 22 May 2019 at 17:00, Brian Marstella <brian at marstella.net>
> wrote:
> >
> > > Just ran across this a few days ago on different search...
> > >
> > > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.sys.apple2/kJ4SosdZTb4
> > >
> > > May have some helpful info.
> > >
> > > On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 11:56 AM John Many Jars via cctalk <
> > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> > >
> > >> I feel like I'm falling down a rabbit hole with this old ][ europlus
> > I've
> > >> had for years.
> > >>
> > >> The smoke came out of the power supply, so I replaced it with one from
> > >> ReactiveMicro.  Now it boots, and was working okay, until this
> morning.
> > >> Now, no keyboard <except> if you hit ctrl-reset.  All other keys are
> > >> ignored.
> > >>
> > >> Anyone have any ideas? (:
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >>
> > >> John (aka Mark)
> > >>
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems:  "The Future Begins Tomorrow"
> > Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net
> >
> > --------
> > "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
> > that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift
> >
>


-- 
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems:  "The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net

--------
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift

From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net  Thu May 23 09:31:02 2019
From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars)
Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 15:31:02 +0100
Subject: Apple ][+ Keyboard
In-Reply-To: <CAEvVyqE3eYiu+mXNVOOiYtnd+5dB-e1-uDmssEvv1Wpf13MSUw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1558458000.25203.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <814CC13B-EE7D-49C8-8E9B-ED5BA6EEC07A@ruffspot.net>
 <7eb6becf-675e-c14a-0636-710b44676e5b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAD2R3iuGorLw=XzE0L2Tkysc+i7ZwmoGr1r8mMwrBt7k_WrTgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAADZ-4MDD5A9jfRrZkSvQdi10DPtfbUFr2E-u5uzCiVWBQtmnA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a6959d96-7449-6743-c87d-488dd1519bad@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAEvVyqFEjyEtrFeB9Drx3pTeoGqJDV+7iLTfgfcAGVjpKmd3eQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPmgNjXAPHFh4sQ=DcbJOn_4DZeQM9BrLiQJstZBa8HgE6mt-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEvVyqGX0xsorZmYD6kNigDBPmb-d+25M-4cEOdrbGSR_=sdcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGix5N=wZtEp-AsT1vgN4QOKdUjoTR1eBp2YEc--P=eBAWO0Ow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEvVyqE3eYiu+mXNVOOiYtnd+5dB-e1-uDmssEvv1Wpf13MSUw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEvVyqGTN9b0Vh=4=fR7eBPNVexPmww5JOAeBPUfiFqNX5YVrg@mail.gmail.com>

Weird... now I've pulled it apart (taken the case off and pulled out the
keyboard... and I get many wrong characters instead of no characters...

Hmmm.  I wonder what happens if you take all the screws out of this thing?
I hope it's not like an IBM AT keyboard and 83 tiny springs fly out...

On Thu, 23 May 2019 at 15:01, John Many Jars <john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net>
wrote:

> That would be great.  I'd really appreciate it.
>
> On Thu, 23 May 2019 at 14:08, Adrian Graham via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi Mark,
>>
>> I have a contact in Belgium who has made some PS2 adapter PCBs if you'd
>> like me to put you in contact, he was advertising them on Facebook a week
>> or so ago.
>>
>> --
>> adrian/witchy
>> Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer
>> collection?
>> t: @binarydinosaurs    f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs
>> w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 23 May 2019 at 13:22, John Many Jars via cctalk <
>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi Brian,
>> >
>> > That's an interesting thread.  It probably is the encoder chip as
>> hitting
>> > Ctrl-Reset works.  Unfortunately Briel Computers doesn't seem to exist
>> > anymore. ):
>> >
>> > This seems like a temporary solution.  I need to collect the stuff to
>> build
>> > one:
>> >
>> > https://knzl.at/ps2-keyboard-for-apple-ii/
>> >
>> > Thanks!
>> >
>> > Mark
>> >
>> > On Wed, 22 May 2019 at 17:00, Brian Marstella <brian at marstella.net>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Just ran across this a few days ago on different search...
>> > >
>> > > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.sys.apple2/kJ4SosdZTb4
>> > >
>> > > May have some helpful info.
>> > >
>> > > On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 11:56 AM John Many Jars via cctalk <
>> > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> I feel like I'm falling down a rabbit hole with this old ][ europlus
>> > I've
>> > >> had for years.
>> > >>
>> > >> The smoke came out of the power supply, so I replaced it with one
>> from
>> > >> ReactiveMicro.  Now it boots, and was working okay, until this
>> morning.
>> > >> Now, no keyboard <except> if you hit ctrl-reset.  All other keys are
>> > >> ignored.
>> > >>
>> > >> Anyone have any ideas? (:
>> > >>
>> > >> Thanks,
>> > >>
>> > >> John (aka Mark)
>> > >>
>> > >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems:  "The Future Begins Tomorrow"
>> > Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net
>> >
>> > --------
>> > "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
>> > that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift
>> >
>>
>
>
> --
> Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems:  "The Future Begins Tomorrow"
> Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net
>
> --------
> "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
> that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift
>
>

-- 
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems:  "The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net

--------
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift

From peter at rittwage.com  Thu May 23 09:36:02 2019
From: peter at rittwage.com (Pete Rittwage)
Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 10:36:02 -0400
Subject: Apple ][+ Keyboard
In-Reply-To: <CAEvVyqFEjyEtrFeB9Drx3pTeoGqJDV+7iLTfgfcAGVjpKmd3eQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1558458000.25203.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <814CC13B-EE7D-49C8-8E9B-ED5BA6EEC07A@ruffspot.net>
 <7eb6becf-675e-c14a-0636-710b44676e5b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAD2R3iuGorLw=XzE0L2Tkysc+i7ZwmoGr1r8mMwrBt7k_WrTgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAADZ-4MDD5A9jfRrZkSvQdi10DPtfbUFr2E-u5uzCiVWBQtmnA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a6959d96-7449-6743-c87d-488dd1519bad@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAEvVyqFEjyEtrFeB9Drx3pTeoGqJDV+7iLTfgfcAGVjpKmd3eQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e6a18a72becaec4f255fd5875124457b@rittwage.com>

On 2019-05-22 11:56, John Many Jars via cctech wrote:
> I feel like I'm falling down a rabbit hole with this old ][ europlus 
> I've
> had for years.
> 
> The smoke came out of the power supply, so I replaced it with one from
> ReactiveMicro.  Now it boots, and was working okay, until this morning.
> Now, no keyboard <except> if you hit ctrl-reset.  All other keys are
> ignored.
> 
> Anyone have any ideas? (:
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> John (aka Mark)

I've had that issue. If you or someone over the years accidentally 
plugged in the keyboard cable wrong, it blows one or both of the 7400's 
and if you are unlucky, the unobtainable keyboard encoder. They could of 
course also break from a PSU surge or static.

-- 
-Pete Rittwage

From peter at rittwage.com  Thu May 23 09:36:02 2019
From: peter at rittwage.com (Pete Rittwage)
Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 10:36:02 -0400
Subject: Apple ][+ Keyboard
In-Reply-To: <CAEvVyqFEjyEtrFeB9Drx3pTeoGqJDV+7iLTfgfcAGVjpKmd3eQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1558458000.25203.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <814CC13B-EE7D-49C8-8E9B-ED5BA6EEC07A@ruffspot.net>
 <7eb6becf-675e-c14a-0636-710b44676e5b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAD2R3iuGorLw=XzE0L2Tkysc+i7ZwmoGr1r8mMwrBt7k_WrTgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAADZ-4MDD5A9jfRrZkSvQdi10DPtfbUFr2E-u5uzCiVWBQtmnA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a6959d96-7449-6743-c87d-488dd1519bad@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAEvVyqFEjyEtrFeB9Drx3pTeoGqJDV+7iLTfgfcAGVjpKmd3eQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e6a18a72becaec4f255fd5875124457b@rittwage.com>

On 2019-05-22 11:56, John Many Jars via cctech wrote:
> I feel like I'm falling down a rabbit hole with this old ][ europlus 
> I've
> had for years.
> 
> The smoke came out of the power supply, so I replaced it with one from
> ReactiveMicro.  Now it boots, and was working okay, until this morning.
> Now, no keyboard <except> if you hit ctrl-reset.  All other keys are
> ignored.
> 
> Anyone have any ideas? (:
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> John (aka Mark)

I've had that issue. If you or someone over the years accidentally 
plugged in the keyboard cable wrong, it blows one or both of the 7400's 
and if you are unlucky, the unobtainable keyboard encoder. They could of 
course also break from a PSU surge or static.

-- 
-Pete Rittwage

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Thu May 23 10:11:49 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 09:11:49 -0600
Subject: Raised Floors
In-Reply-To: <a6959d96-7449-6743-c87d-488dd1519bad@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <mailman.3.1558458000.25203.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <814CC13B-EE7D-49C8-8E9B-ED5BA6EEC07A@ruffspot.net>
 <7eb6becf-675e-c14a-0636-710b44676e5b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAD2R3iuGorLw=XzE0L2Tkysc+i7ZwmoGr1r8mMwrBt7k_WrTgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAADZ-4MDD5A9jfRrZkSvQdi10DPtfbUFr2E-u5uzCiVWBQtmnA@mail.gmail.com>
 <a6959d96-7449-6743-c87d-488dd1519bad@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <90963559-5349-7b9d-9ae1-10fd76770113@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 5/22/19 9:41 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> Both of the data centers / raised floors in my office have fire 
> sprinklers.? I don't know if they lines are charged or dry.? (I'll 
> inquire.)

I received an answer this morning stating that the fire sprinklers in 
the DC are "charged with air and if a sprinkler head goes off the air 
pressure releases but it will not flow water unless one other fire 
system device (smoke head pull station etc..) is activated."

So there is the possibility ~> likelihood that water will be pumped into 
the DC if a sprinkler head opens and another Indicator of Fire ;-) 
activates.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From ethan at 757.org  Thu May 23 14:18:59 2019
From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole)
Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 15:18:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Raised Floors
In-Reply-To: <CAADZ-4MDD5A9jfRrZkSvQdi10DPtfbUFr2E-u5uzCiVWBQtmnA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1558458000.25203.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <814CC13B-EE7D-49C8-8E9B-ED5BA6EEC07A@ruffspot.net>
 <7eb6becf-675e-c14a-0636-710b44676e5b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAD2R3iuGorLw=XzE0L2Tkysc+i7ZwmoGr1r8mMwrBt7k_WrTgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAADZ-4MDD5A9jfRrZkSvQdi10DPtfbUFr2E-u5uzCiVWBQtmnA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1905231512530.10932@users.757.org>

> Purdue's insurer REQUIRES fire sprinklers in data centers.  And it's not
> atypical from what I've heard.  They are all dry, pre-action systems, which
> eliminate most of the danger of it accidentally dumping water.  It's
> unlikely that with a dry pipe, pre-action system water will be dumped
> somewhere that a person is standing without warning[0]. These days,
> equipment is easy to replace (compared to classic systems) given a good DR
> plan and a good insurance provider.

Most systems do air first (pre action) while triggering the PDU/UPS 
systems to shut off first but some X seconds later water is coming out. 
Out of the sprinkler head that was broken, not all heads?

> The NEC also requires[1] an EPO system to shut off all power sources
> (including any UPS).  I'm pretty sure that any fire that required a hose to
> be pulled off of a truck would first result in the power being shut off.

I'm sitting in a fairly large multi-tenant datacenter right now and there 
are no EPO buttons. There might be somewhere on a UPS or PDU somewhere, 
but nothing I could hit. The amount of damage from doing so would be 
horrendus. The employees of the facility might have access to something, 
but I would hope it's zoned out.

> HPE server in the datacenter released its magic smoke.  Standard sprinklers
> only affect the area where the fire set them off, and don't have to douse
> your whole multi-1000 sq ft data center.

Right, and smoke sets off the smoke alarm. It takes actual heat to burst 
the liquid thing that pops and lets the sprinkler head open. It's not 
electronically controlled I would think? Not like the movie "hackers" 
would portray?

> 2. In our experience, HPE servers tend to (internally) catch fire and
> release smoke at a rate of around 10-to-1 vs the Dell servers we've had.

Dell BIOS/Lifecycle crud is so slow and horrible :-( . Huge turd. Haven't 
seen any HP boxes go up. Had thousands of Supermicro boxes at prior gig 
and while the power supplies had engineering flaws never really saw one 
put out smoke (sample size possibly 5 digit # of servers.)


--
: Ethan O'Toole



From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Thu May 23 15:36:02 2019
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 21:36:02 +0100
Subject: TU58FS
Message-ID: <6f8d3653-d8dd-f7ff-e8ba-90dff61daba9@btinternet.com>

Hi

 ??? I am working on getting my KDJ11-E based system up.

I have a CQD220A and a SCSI hard drive installed and formatted.

A serial connection to a Raspberry Pi soon brought up the console on the 
PDP-11 using TU58FS.

Next will be a second serial line to allow TU58 emulation. SFSG

What is not clear is if I can get a bootable OS (RT, RSX or whatever)? 
image onto the Hard Drive using TU58FS.

Any advice as to if and how this could be done would be greatly 
appreciated .

Rod Smallwood



-- 



From rich.cini at verizon.net  Thu May 23 15:40:31 2019
From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini)
Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 20:40:31 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: TU58FS
In-Reply-To: <6f8d3653-d8dd-f7ff-e8ba-90dff61daba9@btinternet.com>
References: <6f8d3653-d8dd-f7ff-e8ba-90dff61daba9@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <C8CACE9E45EB766D.9D5FE595-8C92-4D9A-9D8E-737B36C10165@mail.outlook.com>


  
  
  
    
    	Yes you can. Basically you can boot an image and then prepare the volume on the hard drive and copy it over. I have a PDP11 page on my Classiccmp site that walks through it. There?s also a long thread on the VCFE forums about it. 
classiccmp.org/cini/pdp11.htm

    	
    	

    	Get Outlook for iOS
    
  




On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 4:36 PM -0400, "Rod Smallwood via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:










Hi

 ??? I am working on getting my KDJ11-E based system up.

I have a CQD220A and a SCSI hard drive installed and formatted.

A serial connection to a Raspberry Pi soon brought up the console on the 
PDP-11 using TU58FS.

Next will be a second serial line to allow TU58 emulation. SFSG

What is not clear is if I can get a bootable OS (RT, RSX or whatever)? 
image onto the Hard Drive using TU58FS.

Any advice as to if and how this could be done would be greatly 
appreciated .

Rod Smallwood



-- 








From glen.slick at gmail.com  Thu May 23 18:56:27 2019
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 16:56:27 -0700
Subject: TU58FS
In-Reply-To: <6f8d3653-d8dd-f7ff-e8ba-90dff61daba9@btinternet.com>
References: <6f8d3653-d8dd-f7ff-e8ba-90dff61daba9@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOw+ocEQ926MEaNwvveT-0OHMqcZSROWAw1-OK1j9SjescA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 1:36 PM Rod Smallwood via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Hi
>
>      I am working on getting my KDJ11-E based system up.
>
> I have a CQD220A and a SCSI hard drive installed and formatted.
>
> A serial connection to a Raspberry Pi soon brought up the console on the
> PDP-11 using TU58FS.
>
> Next will be a second serial line to allow TU58 emulation. SFSG
>
> What is not clear is if I can get a bootable OS (RT, RSX or whatever)
> image onto the Hard Drive using TU58FS.

Is getting set up to use TU58 emulation and then using that as a
software installation source one of the goals on its own, or is that
just one of the solutions you are considering in the larger goal of
getting software up and running on your 11/93?

If you are open to other software installation options, it should be a
lot quicker and easier to install software to a disk image using SIMH,
and then "dd" that image to a SCSI disk that the CQD220A is configured
to use. I have gone that route a few times to get 2.11BSD and RSTS/E
10.1 running on real PDP-11 hardware with CQD-220 controllers.

From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Thu May 23 22:07:18 2019
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Fri, 24 May 2019 04:07:18 +0100
Subject: TU58FS
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOw+ocEQ926MEaNwvveT-0OHMqcZSROWAw1-OK1j9SjescA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6f8d3653-d8dd-f7ff-e8ba-90dff61daba9@btinternet.com>
 <CAM2UOw+ocEQ926MEaNwvveT-0OHMqcZSROWAw1-OK1j9SjescA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c7fbb3d1-a86e-0ed5-bf74-16c1febca3cf@btinternet.com>

Hi

 ??? It does not have to be done using TU58.

If you would be so kind as to explain the bit about SIMH and dd.

What to do is good.. How even better.

If I can get? a bootable OS image onto the SCSI drive with what I have 
available then that's all I? need.

Rod Smallwood


On 24/05/2019 00:56, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote:
> On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 1:36 PM Rod Smallwood via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>>       I am working on getting my KDJ11-E based system up.
>>
>> I have a CQD220A and a SCSI hard drive installed and formatted.
>>
>> A serial connection to a Raspberry Pi soon brought up the console on the
>> PDP-11 using TU58FS.
>>
>> Next will be a second serial line to allow TU58 emulation. SFSG
>>
>> What is not clear is if I can get a bootable OS (RT, RSX or whatever)
>> image onto the Hard Drive using TU58FS.
> Is getting set up to use TU58 emulation and then using that as a
> software installation source one of the goals on its own, or is that
> just one of the solutions you are considering in the larger goal of
> getting software up and running on your 11/93?
>
> If you are open to other software installation options, it should be a
> lot quicker and easier to install software to a disk image using SIMH,
> and then "dd" that image to a SCSI disk that the CQD220A is configured
> to use. I have gone that route a few times to get 2.11BSD and RSTS/E
> 10.1 running on real PDP-11 hardware with CQD-220 controllers.

-- 



From wayne.sudol at hotmail.com  Thu May 23 16:28:49 2019
From: wayne.sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne S)
Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 21:28:49 +0000
Subject: Raised Floors
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1905231512530.10932@users.757.org>
References: <mailman.3.1558458000.25203.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <814CC13B-EE7D-49C8-8E9B-ED5BA6EEC07A@ruffspot.net>
 <7eb6becf-675e-c14a-0636-710b44676e5b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAD2R3iuGorLw=XzE0L2Tkysc+i7ZwmoGr1r8mMwrBt7k_WrTgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAADZ-4MDD5A9jfRrZkSvQdi10DPtfbUFr2E-u5uzCiVWBQtmnA@mail.gmail.com>,
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1905231512530.10932@users.757.org>
Message-ID: <BYAPR01MB522386B50B618EF201970DEEE4010@BYAPR01MB5223.prod.exchangelabs.com>



Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

From: Ethan O'Toole via cctalk<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2019 12:19 PM
To: Patrick Finnegan<mailto:pat at vax11.net>; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Raised Floors

> Purdue's insurer REQUIRES fire sprinklers in data centers.  And it's not
> atypical from what I've heard.  They are all dry, pre-action systems, which
> eliminate most of the danger of it accidentally dumping water.  It's
> unlikely that with a dry pipe, pre-action system water will be dumped
> somewhere that a person is standing without warning[0]. These days,
> equipment is easy to replace (compared to classic systems) given a good DR
> plan and a good insurance provider.

Most systems do air first (pre action) while triggering the PDU/UPS
systems to shut off first but some X seconds later water is coming out.
Out of the sprinkler head that was broken, not all heads?

Fire Sprinkler heads have bulbs with a liquid (many kinds based upon what the temperature is that they expand) that burst when a specific temp is reached thus allowing the water to flow. They operate independently of each other under the theory that the one that bursts first is closest to the fire and should  be allowed to have the maximum pressure and water flow.

> The NEC also requires[1] an EPO system to shut off all power sources
> (including any UPS).  I'm pretty sure that any fire that required a hose to
> be pulled off of a truck would first result in the power being shut off.

I'm sitting in a fairly large multi-tenant datacenter right now and there
are no EPO buttons. There might be somewhere on a UPS or PDU somewhere,
but nothing I could hit. The amount of damage from doing so would be
horrendus. The employees of the facility might have access to something,
but I would hope it's zoned out.
Some systems have the EPO outside the room in a fairly secure location (IE. locked room) to prevent someone accidentally or maliciously setting it off and causing damage. Sounds wrong, but the idea is that if there is a fire the sensors in the room will activate the EPO.  So no one should be manually turning power off unless they are properly authorized,  as shutting it off will cause false positives in other areas, like activating the fire alarm system and autodialing the fire department and possibly the police too.
That said, I have seen a ?Delay? button, which, when pressed, would delay  system activation until a few seconds after  it was released.  This was in a really large datacenter where an alarm would sound when activation was imminent and the system would activate 20 seconds later. Someone working on equipment might not have time to get out of the room before activation. The room was large enough and had a smaller  ?forms? room and a IBM tech room with separate doors so people could be in those rooms and not react fast enough to get out in time. The delay was so that someone could give everyone enough time to get out of the room before the system activated. Yes, there was a phone next to the button so that maintenance could be called to reset everything if it was a false alarm.

> HPE server in the datacenter released its magic smoke.  Standard sprinklers
> only affect the area where the fire set them off, and don't have to douse
> your whole multi-1000 sq ft data center.

Right, and smoke sets off the smoke alarm. It takes actual heat to burst
the liquid thing that pops and lets the sprinkler head open. It's not
electronically controlled I would think? Not like the movie "hackers"
would portray?

> 2. In our experience, HPE servers tend to (internally) catch fire and
> release smoke at a rate of around 10-to-1 vs the Dell servers we've had.

Dell BIOS/Lifecycle crud is so slow and horrible :-( . Huge turd. Haven't
seen any HP boxes go up. Had thousands of Supermicro boxes at prior gig
and while the power supplies had engineering flaws never really saw one
put out smoke (sample size possibly 5 digit # of servers.)


--
: Ethan O'Toole



From cruff at ruffspot.net  Thu May 23 18:25:50 2019
From: cruff at ruffspot.net (Craig Ruff)
Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 17:25:50 -0600
Subject: Raised Floors
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1558630800.65865.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.3.1558630800.65865.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <E82B0201-B7F2-438C-A0C1-F5A12A87CAEE@ruffspot.net>

I should have been more clear in my last response.  The 2x2 grid of the floor tiles does not extend to the floor, but to an intermediate layer with wider spacing of the supports at the floor level.

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Thu May 23 19:30:30 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 23 May 2019 18:30:30 -0600
Subject: Raised Floors
In-Reply-To: <E82B0201-B7F2-438C-A0C1-F5A12A87CAEE@ruffspot.net>
References: <mailman.3.1558630800.65865.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <E82B0201-B7F2-438C-A0C1-F5A12A87CAEE@ruffspot.net>
Message-ID: <30cf207f-b3c7-e61d-1a2a-5c574b35971b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 5/23/19 5:25 PM, Craig Ruff via cctech wrote:
> I should have been more clear in my last response.  The 2x2 grid of the 
> floor tiles does not extend to the floor, but to an intermediate layer 
> with wider spacing of the supports at the floor level.

Thank you for the clarification.

I expected something like that might be the case.  But I didn't want to 
assume.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From healyzh at avanthar.com  Fri May 24 16:29:09 2019
From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Fri, 24 May 2019 14:29:09 -0700
Subject: Damaged LTO tapes
Message-ID: <B92489D4-37A6-4139-8ACF-D95DA95FCB07@avanthar.com>

Anyone have any experience on how hard it is to damage an LTO tape.  I mean damage them to the point they split at the seam.

Zane




From chd at chdickman.com  Fri May 24 19:00:19 2019
From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman)
Date: Fri, 24 May 2019 20:00:19 -0400
Subject: OS8 filesystem tools
Message-ID: <CAAq7DHp6xwFHFSKBPyudTOs20-gObTqrv4BzxaJJRtbtG=eTog@mail.gmail.com>

Besides PUTR are there any tools for reading and writing to pdp8 OS8 device
images? Something with source for Linux maybe?

From mark at matlockfamily.com  Fri May 24 11:35:38 2019
From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock)
Date: Fri, 24 May 2019 11:35:38 -0500
Subject: Raised Floors
Message-ID: <1D984EF3-C223-4A1C-B01E-BAC7856D8421@MatlockFamily.com>

   The discussion on raised floors in data centers reminded me of an interesting past experience. My company had installed its first supervisory process control system in an enzyme plant. The plant had been around for quite some time and the process control system was part of a retrofit of the facility. Part of that retrofit was remodeling a room for the PDP-11/44 and the related racks of industrial controllers. There were hundreds of cables carrying various analog and digital signals and control signals under the raised floor that they installed. 

   The only bad thing about the location of the data center was that it was directly under some tanks that were installed on the roof. One tank was for concentrated sulfuric acid which was used to adjust pH in the fermenters. That acid tank was filled from tanker trucks that would come from time to time. One day a trucker who was filling the tank was not paying attention and over filled the roof tank and acid overflowed over onto the roof which should have held the overflow, but it was a flat roof designed to protect from rain not concentrated sulfuric acid. Down in the data center the operator noticed that liquid was flowing down the walls of the room and past the raised floor tiles into the space below. It was easy to confirm it was acid since it was attacking the paint on the wall. The acid pooled under the floor with the cables.

     That was when they called the research chemists next door. We came in and determined that there were some drains under the floor (it had been a factory room before it was converted) and we suggested that they flush the space under the floor with water to dilute the acid to get as much of it out as possible. Then they used fans to try to dry out the room and the space under the floor.

     After all this, miraculously everything seemed ok, but about once every 6 weeks or so that PDP-11/44 would develop some issue and the DEC field service guy (it was under contract) would come out and swap a board or two, marveling at how he had never seen boards that were so corroded. In retrospect I?m amazed that 11/44 survived as well as it did.

Mark

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Fri May 24 19:22:08 2019
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Fri, 24 May 2019 20:22:08 -0400
Subject: Raised Floors
In-Reply-To: <1D984EF3-C223-4A1C-B01E-BAC7856D8421@MatlockFamily.com>
References: <1D984EF3-C223-4A1C-B01E-BAC7856D8421@MatlockFamily.com>
Message-ID: <0ADC9959-237C-48BF-8329-365193C086E6@comcast.net>



> On May 24, 2019, at 12:35 PM, Mark Matlock via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
>   The discussion on raised floors in data centers reminded me of an interesting past experience. My company had installed its first supervisory process control system in an enzyme plant. ...
> 
>   The only bad thing about the location of the data center was that it was directly under some tanks that were installed on the roof. One tank was for concentrated sulfuric acid which was used to adjust pH in the fermenters....
> 
>     After all this, miraculously everything seemed ok, but about once every 6 weeks or so that PDP-11/44 would develop some issue and the DEC field service guy (it was under contract) would come out and swap a board or two, marveling at how he had never seen boards that were so corroded. 

No kidding...

I've seen microphotographs of corroded circuit boards showing the impact of nasty environments.  Sulphur dioxide fumes are notorious.  The examples we were given supposedly came from one of two kinds of shops: rubber tire factories, or car design studios.

The latter was a surprise.  It turns out traditional (and still used) car body design is done by making full scale models from clay, and the particular clay used for this has a very high sulphur content.

	paul



From v.slyngstad at frontier.com  Fri May 24 20:04:19 2019
From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad)
Date: Fri, 24 May 2019 18:04:19 -0700
Subject: OS8 filesystem tools
In-Reply-To: <CAAq7DHp6xwFHFSKBPyudTOs20-gObTqrv4BzxaJJRtbtG=eTog@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAq7DHp6xwFHFSKBPyudTOs20-gObTqrv4BzxaJJRtbtG=eTog@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3adfdb56-d354-66b2-fd95-23dac8b773c4@frontier.com>

On 5/24/2019 5:00 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote:
> Besides PUTR are there any tools for reading and writing to pdp8 OS8 device
> images? Something with source for Linux maybe?
> 
I've got tools that will unpack OS/8 images into files,
which work on Linux and Cygwin (they are Perl scripts).
It is on my to-do list to make the thing that glues all
the little files back together to form a new OS/8 image.

	Vince

From ataylor at subgeniuskitty.com  Fri May 24 22:28:39 2019
From: ataylor at subgeniuskitty.com (Aaron Taylor)
Date: Fri, 24 May 2019 20:28:39 -0700
Subject: Damaged LTO tapes
In-Reply-To: <B92489D4-37A6-4139-8ACF-D95DA95FCB07@avanthar.com>
References: <B92489D4-37A6-4139-8ACF-D95DA95FCB07@avanthar.com>
Message-ID: <20190525032839.GA56217@lagavulin>

On Fri, May 24, 2019 at 02:29:09PM -0700, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
> Anyone have any experience on how hard it is to damage an LTO tape.  I mean
> damage them to the point they split at the seam.

I've abused some LTO tapes pretty badly but never managed to split one open.

A tape library I purchased on eBay turned out to be full of 32 tapes. They all
came loose in transit and bounced around inside. The impacts were enough to
destroy both tape drives and the picker mechanism, as well as put some serious
gouges in the interior of the library. Despite this, 31/32 tapes worked
flawlessly and are still in use multiple years later, having passed through my
backup system multiple times. The damaged tape just had a broken plastic hinge
on the little door that flips open to expose the tape leader.

It's only a single data point (or is it 32? :-), so take it for what it's worth.

Aaron

From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com  Fri May 24 23:12:26 2019
From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez)
Date: Fri, 24 May 2019 23:12:26 -0500
Subject: Raised Floors
In-Reply-To: <1D984EF3-C223-4A1C-B01E-BAC7856D8421@MatlockFamily.com>
References: <1D984EF3-C223-4A1C-B01E-BAC7856D8421@MatlockFamily.com>
Message-ID: <6df42b5c-64f6-cfaf-61ff-12811ac4210c@gmail.com>

Mark Matlock via cctalk wrote:
>     The discussion on raised floors in data centers reminded me of an interesting past experience. My company had installed its first supervisory process control system in an enzyme plant. The plant had been around for quite some time and the process control system was part of a retrofit of the facility. Part of that retrofit was remodeling a room for the PDP-11/44 and the related racks of industrial controllers. There were hundreds of cables carrying various analog and digital signals and control signals under the raised floor that they installed.
>
>     The only bad thing about the location of the data center was that it was directly under some tanks that were installed on the roof. One tank was for concentrated sulfuric acid which was used to adjust pH in the fermenters. That acid tank was filled from tanker trucks that would come from time to time. One day a trucker who was filling the tank was not paying attention and over filled the roof tank and acid overflowed over onto the roof which should have held the overflow, but it was a flat roof designed to protect from rain not concentrated sulfuric acid. Down in the data center the operator noticed that liquid was flowing down the walls of the room and past the raised floor tiles into the space below. It was easy to confirm it was acid since it was attacking the paint on the wall. The acid pooled under the floor with the cables.
>
>       That was when they called the research chemists next door. We came in and determined that there were some drains under the floor (it had been a factory room before it was converted) and we suggested that they flush the space under the floor with water to dilute the acid to get as much of it out as possible. Then they used fans to try to dry out the room and the space under the floor.
>
>       After all this, miraculously everything seemed ok, but about once every 6 weeks or so that PDP-11/44 would develop some issue and the DEC field service guy (it was under contract) would come out and swap a board or two, marveling at how he had never seen boards that were so corroded. In retrospect I?m amazed that 11/44 survived as well as it did.
>
> Mark
>
Sulfuric acid is hard to wash off; the amount that made it to the room 
must have been pretty small, otherwise people couldn't be allowed in.? 
And, if it was bad enough to corrode boards, imagine what that would do 
to your lungs and all mucous membranes in your body...

carlos.


From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com  Fri May 24 23:13:10 2019
From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez)
Date: Fri, 24 May 2019 23:13:10 -0500
Subject: Raised Floors
In-Reply-To: <1D984EF3-C223-4A1C-B01E-BAC7856D8421@MatlockFamily.com>
References: <1D984EF3-C223-4A1C-B01E-BAC7856D8421@MatlockFamily.com>
Message-ID: <c51b1c32-4373-fd87-84fe-e76d46067b0e@gmail.com>

Mark Matlock via cctalk wrote:
>     The discussion on raised floors in data centers reminded me of an interesting past experience. My company had installed its first supervisory process control system in an enzyme plant. The plant had been around for quite some time and the process control system was part of a retrofit of the facility. Part of that retrofit was remodeling a room for the PDP-11/44 and the related racks of industrial controllers. There were hundreds of cables carrying various analog and digital signals and control signals under the raised floor that they installed.
>
>     The only bad thing about the location of the data center was that it was directly under some tanks that were installed on the roof. One tank was for concentrated sulfuric acid which was used to adjust pH in the fermenters. That acid tank was filled from tanker trucks that would come from time to time. One day a trucker who was filling the tank was not paying attention and over filled the roof tank and acid overflowed over onto the roof which should have held the overflow, but it was a flat roof designed to protect from rain not concentrated sulfuric acid. Down in the data center the operator noticed that liquid was flowing down the walls of the room and past the raised floor tiles into the space below. It was easy to confirm it was acid since it was attacking the paint on the wall. The acid pooled under the floor with the cables.
>
>       That was when they called the research chemists next door. We came in and determined that there were some drains under the floor (it had been a factory room before it was converted) and we suggested that they flush the space under the floor with water to dilute the acid to get as much of it out as possible. Then they used fans to try to dry out the room and the space under the floor.
>
>       After all this, miraculously everything seemed ok, but about once every 6 weeks or so that PDP-11/44 would develop some issue and the DEC field service guy (it was under contract) would come out and swap a board or two, marveling at how he had never seen boards that were so corroded. In retrospect I?m amazed that 11/44 survived as well as it did.
>
> Mark
>
Sulfuric acid is hard to wash off; the amount that made it to the room 
must have been pretty small, otherwise people couldn't be allowed in.? 
And, if it was bad enough to corrode boards, imagine what that would do 
to your lungs and all mucous membranes in your body...

carlos.


From cclist at sydex.com  Sat May 25 01:38:43 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 24 May 2019 23:38:43 -0700
Subject: Raised Floors
In-Reply-To: <6df42b5c-64f6-cfaf-61ff-12811ac4210c@gmail.com>
References: <1D984EF3-C223-4A1C-B01E-BAC7856D8421@MatlockFamily.com>
 <6df42b5c-64f6-cfaf-61ff-12811ac4210c@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7896dd5c-66eb-18b0-e738-e342e65e9b29@sydex.com>

On 5/24/19 9:12 PM, Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk wrote:

> Sulfuric acid is hard to wash off; the amount that made it to the room
> must have been pretty small, otherwise people couldn't be allowed in.?
> And, if it was bad enough to corrode boards, imagine what that would do
> to your lungs and all mucous membranes in your body...

In my limited experience, there's nothing much worse than concentrated
hydrochloric acid. A contain of the stuff inadvertently left open will
soon corrode anything corrodable in the room.  HF may be worse; I don't
know.

--Chuck


From stefan.skoglund at agj.net  Sat May 25 07:21:58 2019
From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund)
Date: Sat, 25 May 2019 14:21:58 +0200
Subject: Raised Floors
In-Reply-To: <7896dd5c-66eb-18b0-e738-e342e65e9b29@sydex.com>
References: <1D984EF3-C223-4A1C-B01E-BAC7856D8421@MatlockFamily.com>
 <6df42b5c-64f6-cfaf-61ff-12811ac4210c@gmail.com>
 <7896dd5c-66eb-18b0-e738-e342e65e9b29@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <ad4a53acd35b9b7d23b879d1f3771ed1ce279998.camel@agj.net>

fre 2019-05-24 klockan 23:38 -0700 skrev Chuck Guzis via cctalk:
> On 5/24/19 9:12 PM, Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk wrote:
> 
> > Sulfuric acid is hard to wash off; the amount that made it to the
> > room
> > must have been pretty small, otherwise people couldn't be allowed
> > in. 
> > And, if it was bad enough to corrode boards, imagine what that
> > would do
> > to your lungs and all mucous membranes in your body...
> 
> In my limited experience, there's nothing much worse than
> concentrated
> hydrochloric acid. A contain of the stuff inadvertently left open
> will
> soon corrode anything corrodable in the room.  HF may be worse; I
> don't
> know.
> 

HCl is a gas dissolved in water.

At room temperatures (or higher) it will gas off
but because of the air moisture tiny drops of liquid HCl will form
instantenously.

Add water until around 25 percent concentration should stop most of the
gasification.


From couryhouse at aol.com  Sat May 25 12:02:47 2019
From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE)
Date: Sat, 25 May 2019 17:02:47 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?UNIVAC_422_material=C2=A0_acquisitions_updates..?=
References: <652940772.4828977.1558803767650.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <652940772.4828977.1558803767650@mail.yahoo.com>

UNIVAC 422 Training? Computer? material acquisitions updates..


- UNIVAC 422 Training? Computer program Instruction reference cards? ?-? (4 each)- Photograph? of? students? using one? in an educational environment (1 each)- Applications programs description sheets? fro? 2? programs ( 1? each ,? 2? programs)- UNIVAC 422 Partial Maintenance Manual? (1 each)-UNIVAC Card Spares? suitcase -? some dividers-? ?removed? (1 each)

The? ?Game is? Afoot! Please? check? your? files? for ANYTHING? related to? the? UNIVAC? 422? or? UDT? Training? computers!? -? ?Ed Sharpe -? ?Archivist? ?for SMECC



From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Sat May 25 12:21:34 2019
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Sat, 25 May 2019 12:21:34 -0500
Subject: Raised Floors
In-Reply-To: <ad4a53acd35b9b7d23b879d1f3771ed1ce279998.camel@agj.net>
References: <1D984EF3-C223-4A1C-B01E-BAC7856D8421@MatlockFamily.com>
 <6df42b5c-64f6-cfaf-61ff-12811ac4210c@gmail.com>
 <7896dd5c-66eb-18b0-e738-e342e65e9b29@sydex.com>
 <ad4a53acd35b9b7d23b879d1f3771ed1ce279998.camel@agj.net>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs21CVa7gEHo4+xk882mbnRN8my9iztL9ZLz-owXxJPifBg@mail.gmail.com>

>
> acid water hah i work around ph 2.38 water liming it during the summer.
> insane how fast it will eat steel out
>

From mark at meba.com  Sat May 25 12:21:04 2019
From: mark at meba.com (MEBA)
Date: Sat, 25 May 2019 12:21:04 -0500
Subject: 9895A Flexible Disc Memory For Sale
Message-ID: <00e001d5131e$3c1651e0$b442f5a0$@meba.com>

I have an old floppy disk drive by Hewlett-Packard, their 9895A Flexible
Disc Memory. We got this from an estate cleanout and I would like to sell
it. It has been powered up and one bay door works when the button is pressed
and the other doesn't. It is a large, very heavy machine. I have it on ebay
for $299 ( <https://www.ebay.com/itm/254242280384>
https://www.ebay.com/itm/254242280384) but that was just a shot in the dark.
Any reasonable offer considered.

 

Mark

mark at meba.com

 


From couryhouse at aol.com  Sat May 25 12:37:50 2019
From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE)
Date: Sat, 25 May 2019 17:37:50 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?UNIVAC_422_material=C2=A0_acquisitions_updates..?=
References: <506795351.4798582.1558805870850.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <506795351.4798582.1558805870850@mail.yahoo.com>

UNIVAC 422 Training? Computer? material acquisitions updates..


- UNIVAC 422 Training? Computer program Instruction reference cards? ?-? (4 each)- Photograph? of? students? using one? in an educational environment (1 each)- Applications programs description sheets? fro? 2? programs ( 1? each ,? 2? programs)- UNIVAC 422 Partial Maintenance Manual? (1 each)-UNIVAC Card Spares? suitcase -? some dividers-? ?removed? (1 each)

The? ?Game is? Afoot! Please? check? your? files? for ANYTHING? related to? the? UNIVAC? 422? or? UDT? Training? computers!? -? ?Ed Sharpe -? ?Archivist? ?for SMECC



From healyzh at avanthar.com  Sat May 25 12:47:22 2019
From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Sat, 25 May 2019 10:47:22 -0700
Subject: Damaged LTO tapes
In-Reply-To: <20190525032839.GA56217@lagavulin>
References: <B92489D4-37A6-4139-8ACF-D95DA95FCB07@avanthar.com>
 <20190525032839.GA56217@lagavulin>
Message-ID: <D58B1F10-A13D-4820-94AD-BF18DA6183C5@avanthar.com>


> On May 24, 2019, at 8:28 PM, Aaron Taylor <ataylor at subgeniuskitty.com> wrote:
> 
> On Fri, May 24, 2019 at 02:29:09PM -0700, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>> Anyone have any experience on how hard it is to damage an LTO tape.  I mean
>> damage them to the point they split at the seam.
> 
> I've abused some LTO tapes pretty badly but never managed to split one open.
> 
> A tape library I purchased on eBay turned out to be full of 32 tapes. They all
> came loose in transit and bounced around inside. The impacts were enough to
> destroy both tape drives and the picker mechanism, as well as put some serious
> gouges in the interior of the library. Despite this, 31/32 tapes worked
> flawlessly and are still in use multiple years later, having passed through my
> backup system multiple times. The damaged tape just had a broken plastic hinge
> on the little door that flips open to expose the tape leader.
> 
> It's only a single data point (or is it 32? :-), so take it for what it's worth.
> 
> Aaron

Realistically that?s sort of what I?d expect from LTO tapes.  I?ve never abused them like I have abused SDLT tapes.  Mainly because I?ve never had the chance.  I know it?s amazingly hard to visibly damage SDLT tapes.

Zane




From t.gardner at computer.org  Sat May 25 12:50:01 2019
From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner)
Date: Sat, 25 May 2019 10:50:01 -0700
Subject: Damaged LTO tapes
In-Reply-To: <B92489D4-37A6-4139-8ACF-D95DA95FCB07@avanthar.com>
References: <B92489D4-37A6-4139-8ACF-D95DA95FCB07@avanthar.com>
Message-ID: <004b01d51322$478482a0$d68d87e0$@computer.org>

Based upon my interviews for the Computer History Museum of IBM personnel
involved in the development of LTO and its medium, I'd expect it to be very
difficult to damage an LTO tape
See: https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102738025
particularly sessions 1 and 5

Tom

-----Original Message-----
From: Zane Healy [mailto:healyzh at avanthar.com] 
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2019 2:29 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Damaged LTO tapes

Anyone have any experience on how hard it is to damage an LTO tape.  I mean
damage them to the point they split at the seam.

Zane






From elson at pico-systems.com  Sat May 25 13:35:13 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Sat, 25 May 2019 13:35:13 -0500
Subject: IBM 1620 manuals
In-Reply-To: <5CDA3CB1.70904@pico-systems.com>
References: <df1e7cdb-55ed-abbc-9e46-a1cd69010c9d@bitsavers.org>
 <5CDA3CB1.70904@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <5CE98AE1.5030405@pico-systems.com>

On 05/13/2019 10:57 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
> I just discovered a binder with 2 IBM 1620 manuals.  A 
> quick check shows bitsavers has these and newer editions 
> of them.
>
> So, does anybody want :
>
> IBM 1620 Central Processing Unit, Model 2  (Form A26-5781-1)
>
> and
>
> IBM 1620 Monitor II System Reference Manual (Form C26-5774-0)
>
> Jon
>
OK, since the mysterious "Steve" who actually HAS a 1620 
apparently can't be contacted, anybody else have a 1620, or 
know somebody who does?  Or, has a significant collection
of 1620 items?

These manuals, or newer editions, are already on bitsavers, 
so there's nothing new there.

Otherwise they go to the person who contacted me first on 
5/13. (I'm just seeing if there's anybody who actually NEEDS 
these before giving them to somebody who just "wants" them.)

  Jon

From dave at babcock-family.org  Sat May 25 14:05:42 2019
From: dave at babcock-family.org (Dave Babcock)
Date: Sat, 25 May 2019 12:05:42 -0700
Subject: IBM 1620 manuals
In-Reply-To: <5CE98AE1.5030405@pico-systems.com>
References: <df1e7cdb-55ed-abbc-9e46-a1cd69010c9d@bitsavers.org>
 <5CDA3CB1.70904@pico-systems.com> <5CE98AE1.5030405@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <5461e504-9279-5a31-464c-2528cbcd8eee@babcock-family.org>

Jon,

The Computer History Museum (Mountain View, California) has the most 
extensive collection of IBM 1620 items - hardware, manuals, books, 
software, etc. - in the world.? Most of the items were collected a 
number of years ago when a team of volunteers restored the museum's IBM 
1620 Model 1 Level F computer to full operation.

I verified that the museum has both of these physical manuals, plus some 
associated update notices.? So, the museum does not need them.? Thanks 
for offering.

A subset of the restoration team is currently building a historic 
replica of the machine - dubbed the IBM 1620 Jr. - for the museum's 
education department use.? We've exhibited it at VCF West the past 2 
years [winning Best in Show last year] and will be there again this 
year.? This year we will be highlighting our work to create a 
general-purpose, ASCII terminal using an IBM/Lexmark Wheelwriter 1000 
typewriter.

Thanks,
Dave


On 5/25/2019 11:35 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
> On 05/13/2019 10:57 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
>> I just discovered a binder with 2 IBM 1620 manuals.? A quick check 
>> shows bitsavers has these and newer editions of them.
>>
>> So, does anybody want :
>>
>> IBM 1620 Central Processing Unit, Model 2? (Form A26-5781-1)
>>
>> and
>>
>> IBM 1620 Monitor II System Reference Manual (Form C26-5774-0)
>>
>> Jon
>>
> OK, since the mysterious "Steve" who actually HAS a 1620 apparently 
> can't be contacted, anybody else have a 1620, or know somebody who 
> does?? Or, has a significant collection
> of 1620 items?
>
> These manuals, or newer editions, are already on bitsavers, so there's 
> nothing new there.
>
> Otherwise they go to the person who contacted me first on 5/13. (I'm 
> just seeing if there's anybody who actually NEEDS these before giving 
> them to somebody who just "wants" them.)
>
> ?Jon
>
>

From cube1 at charter.net  Sat May 25 20:37:40 2019
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Sat, 25 May 2019 20:37:40 -0500
Subject: TU58FS
In-Reply-To: <c7fbb3d1-a86e-0ed5-bf74-16c1febca3cf@btinternet.com>
References: <6f8d3653-d8dd-f7ff-e8ba-90dff61daba9@btinternet.com>
 <CAM2UOw+ocEQ926MEaNwvveT-0OHMqcZSROWAw1-OK1j9SjescA@mail.gmail.com>
 <c7fbb3d1-a86e-0ed5-bf74-16c1febca3cf@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <481f8112-2313-cff9-75ba-ada27a0da511@charter.net>

On 5/23/2019 10:07 PM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote:
> Hi
> 
> ??? It does not have to be done using TU58.
> 
> If you would be so kind as to explain the bit about SIMH and dd.
> 
> What to do is good.. How even better.
> 
> If I can get? a bootable OS image onto the SCSI drive with what I have
> available then that's all I? need.
> 
> Rod Smallwood
> 

The idea would be to use another machine (say, a PC running Linux) to
copy an image that runs under SimH configured for the same disk
controller and geometry to copy that image to the disk.

From vintagecomputersmn at gmail.com  Sun May 26 00:13:15 2019
From: vintagecomputersmn at gmail.com (Mister PDP)
Date: Sun, 26 May 2019 00:13:15 -0500
Subject: M7264 Troubleshooting
In-Reply-To: <CABr82SLyW5unA40vqf2_L_T6u+1cKEcLpLHyi-AXH+ZNj-Q_1w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190523121425.E6D7018C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CABr82SLyW5unA40vqf2_L_T6u+1cKEcLpLHyi-AXH+ZNj-Q_1w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHnoH6xjVa4cRG7jONh9LAF+X5qK2imHyQnv_majAc3QGQFbxA@mail.gmail.com>

Ok, small update. My M8043 (DLV11-J) just arrived today. It seemed in good
condition so I confirmed it was set up correctly (9.6k baud and console on
J3), built a serial cable from the information provided on gunkies, and put
it into my system. Sadly, it behaves exactly how it did with the M8017. No
output, no activity on the BRPLY line. I have a hard time imagining that
both my M8017 and my M8043 are bad, but it could still be possible.

On Thu, May 23, 2019 at 7:38 AM Mattis Lind via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Den tors 23 maj 2019 kl 14:14 skrev Noel Chiappa via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org>:
>
> >     > From: Jon Elson
> >
> >     > Yes, this is most likely a bus timeout
> >
> > The good news is that it looks like his CPU is 'mostly' working; and if
> > the NXM is due to a fault on the CPU (e.g. bad bus transceiver sending
> > the wrong address), that would be fixable (it uses 8641's).
> >
> > If the fault is in the DLV11-E (and not just misconfiguration), depending
> > on
> > where the fault is, he might be out of luck with that card; it uses
> DC005's
> > for transceivers, which of course are unobtainium now.
>
>
> Not really unobtainium: https://www.ebay.com/itm/281679682476 and
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/253305313497
>
> These DC0xx chips can sometimes be found on Ebay under their Signetics
> name.
>
> DC003 C2293N
> DC004 C2301N
> DC005 C2324N
> DC006 C2345N
> DC010 C2344N
>
>
>
>
> > Still, QBUS serial
> > interfaces are not rare.
> >
> > And overall, progress is being made! :-)
> >
> >     Noel
> >
>
> /Mattis
>

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Sun May 26 08:39:28 2019
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Sun, 26 May 2019 13:39:28 +0000
Subject: TU58FS
In-Reply-To: <481f8112-2313-cff9-75ba-ada27a0da511@charter.net>
References: <6f8d3653-d8dd-f7ff-e8ba-90dff61daba9@btinternet.com>
 <CAM2UOw+ocEQ926MEaNwvveT-0OHMqcZSROWAw1-OK1j9SjescA@mail.gmail.com>
 <c7fbb3d1-a86e-0ed5-bf74-16c1febca3cf@btinternet.com>
 <481f8112-2313-cff9-75ba-ada27a0da511@charter.net>
Message-ID: <SN2PR01MB2142F5CE6D4BDE69E6981C44ED1C0@SN2PR01MB2142.prod.exchangelabs.com>

On 5/25/19 9:37 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote:
> On 5/23/2019 10:07 PM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>>  ??? It does not have to be done using TU58.
>>
>> If you would be so kind as to explain the bit about SIMH and dd.
>>
>> What to do is good.. How even better.
>>
>> If I can get? a bootable OS image onto the SCSI drive with what I have
>> available then that's all I? need.
>>
>> Rod Smallwood
>>
> 
> The idea would be to use another machine (say, a PC running Linux) to
> copy an image that runs under SimH configured for the same disk
> controller and geometry to copy that image to the disk.
> 

Or use Ersatz-11, mount the disk and build the image right there.
I have done this for RT-11, RSTS/E and BSD-2.11.

bill


From elson at pico-systems.com  Sun May 26 10:44:54 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Sun, 26 May 2019 10:44:54 -0500
Subject: M7264 Troubleshooting
In-Reply-To: <CAHnoH6xjVa4cRG7jONh9LAF+X5qK2imHyQnv_majAc3QGQFbxA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190523121425.E6D7018C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CABr82SLyW5unA40vqf2_L_T6u+1cKEcLpLHyi-AXH+ZNj-Q_1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHnoH6xjVa4cRG7jONh9LAF+X5qK2imHyQnv_majAc3QGQFbxA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5CEAB476.8090908@pico-systems.com>

On 05/26/2019 12:13 AM, Mister PDP via cctalk wrote:
> Ok, small update. My M8043 (DLV11-J) just arrived today. It seemed in good
> condition so I confirmed it was set up correctly (9.6k baud and console on
> J3), built a serial cable from the information provided on gunkies, and put
> it into my system. Sadly, it behaves exactly how it did with the M8017. No
> output, no activity on the BRPLY line. I have a hard time imagining that
> both my M8017 and my M8043 are bad, but it could still be possible.
>
>
Well, if just ONE address line driver on the CPU has gone 
bad (or a short in the backplane) it could prevent the DLV 
from recognizing the address.  If there are any other boards 
in the system, take them out.  Maybe even the memory boards, 
and try to read/write the DLV addrsss from the console.  
(Oh, maybe that's the problem, you don't have the full 
programmer's console on this machine.)

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Sun May 26 11:23:18 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Sun, 26 May 2019 11:23:18 -0500
Subject: M7264 Troubleshooting
In-Reply-To: <5CEAB476.8090908@pico-systems.com>
References: <20190523121425.E6D7018C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CABr82SLyW5unA40vqf2_L_T6u+1cKEcLpLHyi-AXH+ZNj-Q_1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHnoH6xjVa4cRG7jONh9LAF+X5qK2imHyQnv_majAc3QGQFbxA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5CEAB476.8090908@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <5CEABD76.1060108@pico-systems.com>

On 05/26/2019 10:44 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
> On 05/26/2019 12:13 AM, Mister PDP via cctalk wrote:
>> Ok, small update. My M8043 (DLV11-J) just arrived today. 
>> It seemed in good
>> condition so I confirmed it was set up correctly (9.6k 
>> baud and console on
>> J3), built a serial cable from the information provided 
>> on gunkies, and put
>> it into my system. Sadly, it behaves exactly how it did 
>> with the M8017. No
>> output, no activity on the BRPLY line. I have a hard time 
>> imagining that
>> both my M8017 and my M8043 are bad, but it could still be 
>> possible.
>>
>>
> Well, if just ONE address line driver on the CPU has gone 
> bad (or a short in the backplane) it could prevent the DLV 
> from recognizing the address.  If there are any other 
> boards in the system, take them out.  Maybe even the 
> memory boards, and try to read/write the DLV addrsss from 
> the console.  (Oh, maybe that's the problem, you don't 
> have the full programmer's console on this machine.)
>
Oh, DLV means Q-bus, so there isn't much choice EXCEPT 
serial console, is there?
Yeah, when the serial console doesn't work, you've got a 
problem. You could check each addr/data line to see that it 
wiggles.  If it doesn't wiggle, then you can see if the 
state it is in makes sense. Obviously, somewhere in the 
serial console routine, it should be addressing the serial 
console, so every line should at some point be in the state 
to select the console CSR.
A logic analyzer set up to read out the bus would be a good 
tool at this point.

Jon

From bhilpert at shaw.ca  Sun May 26 13:03:06 2019
From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Sun, 26 May 2019 11:03:06 -0700
Subject: M7264 Troubleshooting
In-Reply-To: <5CEABD76.1060108@pico-systems.com>
References: <20190523121425.E6D7018C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CABr82SLyW5unA40vqf2_L_T6u+1cKEcLpLHyi-AXH+ZNj-Q_1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHnoH6xjVa4cRG7jONh9LAF+X5qK2imHyQnv_majAc3QGQFbxA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5CEAB476.8090908@pico-systems.com> <5CEABD76.1060108@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <BD95AF5B-5657-4CFC-BAFA-B81F700ADD2B@shaw.ca>

Didn't this start out with the RUN LED not lighting up?
I don't recall it being mentioned that that was repaired.
Perhaps pursue fixing that - while it may be a secondary problem that
doesn't resolve a 'bigger' problem, it could be that it uncovers a common problem.


From vintagecomputersmn at gmail.com  Sun May 26 13:37:41 2019
From: vintagecomputersmn at gmail.com (Mister PDP)
Date: Sun, 26 May 2019 13:37:41 -0500
Subject: M7264 Troubleshooting
In-Reply-To: <5CEABD76.1060108@pico-systems.com>
References: <20190523121425.E6D7018C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CABr82SLyW5unA40vqf2_L_T6u+1cKEcLpLHyi-AXH+ZNj-Q_1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHnoH6xjVa4cRG7jONh9LAF+X5qK2imHyQnv_majAc3QGQFbxA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5CEAB476.8090908@pico-systems.com> <5CEABD76.1060108@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <CAHnoH6zzwPLTA866xFVG=1MBaL94eBH9z6hJYJQU8ZF1Rknfnw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, May 26, 2019 at 1:03 PM Brent Hilpert via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Didn't this start out with the RUN LED not lighting up?
> I don't recall it being mentioned that that was repaired.
>

I spent a good amount of time with the RUN LED issue, but eventually hit a
brick wall. I traced the signal from the halt switch all the way into the
"Control Chip" on the MCP-1600 chipset (All OK), but since the CPU directly
controls if the LED is on or not I was not able to determine why the CPU
was not telling the light to go on. Since other signals on the board were
looking good (as in it was trying to communicate with other cards on the
board), I am assuming that is a secondary issue.

On Sun, May 26, 2019 at 11:23 AM Jon Elson via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> > Well, if just ONE address line driver on the CPU has gone
> > bad (or a short in the backplane) it could prevent the DLV
> > from recognizing the address.  If there are any other
> > boards in the system, take them out.  Maybe even the
> > memory boards, and try to read/write the DLV addrsss from
> > the console.  (Oh, maybe that's the problem, you don't
> > have the full programmer's console on this machine.)
> >
> Oh, DLV means Q-bus, so there isn't much choice EXCEPT
> serial console, is there?
> Yeah, when the serial console doesn't work, you've got a
> problem. You could check each addr/data line to see that it
> wiggles.  If it doesn't wiggle, then you can see if the
> state it is in makes sense. Obviously, somewhere in the
> serial console routine, it should be addressing the serial
> console, so every line should at some point be in the state
> to select the console CSR.
> A logic analyzer set up to read out the bus would be a good
> tool at this point.
>
> Jon
>

 The only cards I have in my system right now is the M7264 CPU board, and
my M8043 DLV11-J (or M8017-AA, which I also have onhand) serial board in
the slot closest to the CPU. The M7264 has 4KW of memory onboard, but I
don't think the ODT prompt even needs any memory. I haven't gone and
checked if any of the lines are shorted when they are not suppose to be,
but a number of the pins are shorted with solder bridges on the back side
of the H11A backplane. They look like they have been there since this
machine was new, I am am assuming that they are intentional. When I get
home I will go and check to see if any of the data/addr lines are stuck
using my logic analyzer, as well as making sure those solder bridges are
where they are suppose to be.

From djg at pdp8online.com  Sun May 26 06:56:27 2019
From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein)
Date: Sun, 26 May 2019 07:56:27 -0400
Subject: OS8 filesystem tools
In-Reply-To: <CAAq7DHp6xwFHFSKBPyudTOs20-gObTqrv4BzxaJJRtbtG=eTog@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAq7DHp6xwFHFSKBPyudTOs20-gObTqrv4BzxaJJRtbtG=eTog@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190526115627.GA20020@hugin2.pdp8online.com>

On Fri, May 24, 2019 at 08:00:19PM -0400, Charles Dickman wrote:
> Besides PUTR are there any tools for reading and writing to pdp8 OS8 device
> images? Something with source for Linux maybe?
> 

flx8 is windows command line but I ported it to Linux without that much
difficulty.

http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Downloads/SBC6120_Tools.zip

Some usage in this manual
https://www.grc.com/pdp-8/SBC/SBC6120_Users_Manual.pdf

A modified version does my disk images on my website (under Linux).
http://www.pdp8online.com/images/index.shtml

The web page generation is tied into it but parts of the code are likely
useful. Its based on an older version of the flx8 source. If its useful
to you I can send you a copy.

From derschjo at gmail.com  Sun May 26 20:37:02 2019
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sun, 26 May 2019 18:37:02 -0700
Subject: ISO: L0022 memory controller for VAX-11/750
Message-ID: <CADBZjLb1b1_gbopc1p5-Q73F-mfXZedLhN-VQBTYJOUthkUeqQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all --

Curious if anyone has a spare L0022 memory controller, this allows a
VAX-11/750 to address up to a whopping 14mb of memory (2x4mb, 6x 1mb
boards).  I found a couple of the 4mb boards, now I just need to upgrade
the memory controller to be able to use them...

Thanks as always,
Josh

From spectre at floodgap.com  Sun May 26 23:09:32 2019
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun, 26 May 2019 21:09:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: HP/UX 8 and hosts vs DNS
Message-ID: <201905270409.x4R49WCr17301648@floodgap.com>

I've been doing more work on my 9000/350 now that I have actual space to
do work on it in. Although the 10b2 is flaky, I can usually coax it to work.

However, the damn thing won't query DNS even though I have a populated
/etc/resolv.conf. It can ping the name server, and if the name server's
name is in /etc/hosts it will resolve it (and even telnet to it), but it
won't talk to it for anything else.

I'm not as adept at HP/UX before 10.20 (my first experience with the OS),
but I understand 8.0 "fails over" to /etc/hosts if it has some issues with
DNS. Fine, but how can I get it to switch *back*? There's no /etc/nsswitch.conf
and I don't think this version supports it anyway.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- There is always one more imbecile than you counted on. ---------------------

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Sun May 26 23:52:48 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Sun, 26 May 2019 22:52:48 -0600
Subject: HP/UX 8 and hosts vs DNS
In-Reply-To: <201905270409.x4R49WCr17301648@floodgap.com>
References: <201905270409.x4R49WCr17301648@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <d79cd75f-2867-336d-b61d-f99aa4cdc14e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 5/26/19 10:09 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote:
> However, the damn thing won't query DNS even though I have a populated 
> /etc/resolv.conf. It can ping the name server, and if the name server's 
> name is in /etc/hosts it will resolve it (and even telnet to it), 
> but it won't talk to it for anything else.
> 
> I'm not as adept at HP/UX before 10.20 (my first experience with the 
> OS), but I understand 8.0 "fails over" to /etc/hosts if it has some 
> issues with DNS. Fine, but how can I get it to switch *back*? There's 
> no /etc/nsswitch.conf and I don't think this version supports it 
> anyway.

At the risk of showing my ignorance, how much has DNS changed since 
HP-UX 8 was using DNS?

Have you sniffed the wire to see if it's sending DNS queries and waiting 
for them to fail?



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From jsw at ieee.org  Sun May 26 23:57:40 2019
From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss)
Date: Sun, 26 May 2019 23:57:40 -0500
Subject: HP/UX 8 and hosts vs DNS
In-Reply-To: <201905270409.x4R49WCr17301648@floodgap.com>
References: <201905270409.x4R49WCr17301648@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <9759f648-c9b1-9038-b9d2-3a91ab18417a@ieee.org>

>From https://docstore.mik.ua/orelly/networking_2ndEd/dns/ch06_04.htm

Before HP-UX 10.10, you could only use nsswitch.conf to configure the 
order of resolution for the hosts source. From 10.10 on, you can also 
use nsswitch.conf to configure resolution order for the services, 
networks, protocols, rpc, and netgroup sources. hosts: dns 
[NOTFOUND=return] nis [NOTFOUND=return] files"



On 5/26/19 11:09 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote:
> I've been doing more work on my 9000/350 now that I have actual space to
> do work on it in. Although the 10b2 is flaky, I can usually coax it to work.
>
> However, the damn thing won't query DNS even though I have a populated
> /etc/resolv.conf. It can ping the name server, and if the name server's
> name is in /etc/hosts it will resolve it (and even telnet to it), but it
> won't talk to it for anything else.
>
> I'm not as adept at HP/UX before 10.20 (my first experience with the OS),
> but I understand 8.0 "fails over" to /etc/hosts if it has some issues with
> DNS. Fine, but how can I get it to switch *back*? There's no /etc/nsswitch.conf
> and I don't think this version supports it anyway.
>


From spectre at floodgap.com  Mon May 27 00:25:18 2019
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun, 26 May 2019 22:25:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: HP/UX 8 and hosts vs DNS
In-Reply-To: <d79cd75f-2867-336d-b61d-f99aa4cdc14e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> from Grant
 Taylor via cctalk at "May 26, 19 10:52:48 pm"
Message-ID: <201905270525.x4R5PICS22741156@floodgap.com>

> > However, the damn thing won't query DNS even though I have a populated 
> > /etc/resolv.conf. It can ping the name server, and if the name server's 
> > name is in /etc/hosts it will resolve it (and even telnet to it), 
> > but it won't talk to it for anything else.
> > 
> > I'm not as adept at HP/UX before 10.20 (my first experience with the 
> > OS), but I understand 8.0 "fails over" to /etc/hosts if it has some 
> > issues with DNS. Fine, but how can I get it to switch *back*? There's 
> > no /etc/nsswitch.conf and I don't think this version supports it 
> > anyway.
> 
> At the risk of showing my ignorance, how much has DNS changed since 
> HP-UX 8 was using DNS?

Irrelevant here, because it's a BIND 4 server on the other end too (on
purpose since I have other older systems that need it). HP/UX 8 is also
BIND 4.

> Have you sniffed the wire to see if it's sending DNS queries and waiting 
> for them to fail?

That's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure when to do this. By the time
I actually get a root prompt, nslookup says it's already checking hosts
and refuses to do otherwise.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese. -----

From spectre at floodgap.com  Mon May 27 00:31:43 2019
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sun, 26 May 2019 22:31:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: HP/UX 8 and hosts vs DNS
In-Reply-To: <9759f648-c9b1-9038-b9d2-3a91ab18417a@ieee.org> from Jerry Weiss
 at "May 26, 19 11:57:40 pm"
Message-ID: <201905270531.x4R5VhB017694792@floodgap.com>

> > I'm not as adept at HP/UX before 10.20 (my first experience with the OS),
> > but I understand 8.0 "fails over" to /etc/hosts if it has some issues with
> > DNS. Fine, but how can I get it to switch *back*? There's no
> > /etc/nsswitch.conf and I don't think this version supports it anyway.
>
> From https://docstore.mik.ua/orelly/networking_2ndEd/dns/ch06_04.htm
> 
> Before HP-UX 10.10, you could only use nsswitch.conf to configure the 
> order of resolution for the hosts source. From 10.10 on, you can also 
> use nsswitch.conf to configure resolution order for the services, 
> networks, protocols, rpc, and netgroup sources. hosts: dns 
> [NOTFOUND=return] nis [NOTFOUND=return] files"

Appreciated, but from the same resource,

	"HP-UX 10.00 introduced Solaris's nsswitch.conf functionality"

so this won't apply to HP/UX 8.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- A Freudian slip is when you say one thing, but mean your mother. -----------

From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com  Mon May 27 00:42:59 2019
From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 00:42:59 -0500
Subject: ISO: L0022 memory controller for VAX-11/750
In-Reply-To: <CADBZjLb1b1_gbopc1p5-Q73F-mfXZedLhN-VQBTYJOUthkUeqQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADBZjLb1b1_gbopc1p5-Q73F-mfXZedLhN-VQBTYJOUthkUeqQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7e74f109-679f-5c7b-88c5-716ec14a3e45@gmail.com>

Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote:
> Hi all --
>
> Curious if anyone has a spare L0022 memory controller, this allows a
> VAX-11/750 to address up to a whopping 14mb of memory (2x4mb, 6x 1mb
> boards).  I found a couple of the 4mb boards, now I just need to upgrade
> the memory controller to be able to use them...
>
> Thanks as always,
> Josh
>
And, I am looking for the contrary, namely, an MS400-CA 12MB memory 
module for my vaxstation 2000, which currently hosts just 6MB under 
5.5-2, and can't do much linear algebra.? Need it shipped to Colombia, 
South America, my current home.? The size of the paging files in it are 
outrageous compared to the physical memory.

carlos.

From fmc at reanimators.org  Mon May 27 00:46:51 2019
From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell)
Date: Sun, 26 May 2019 22:46:51 -0700
Subject: HP/UX 8 and hosts vs DNS
In-Reply-To: <201905270409.x4R49WCr17301648@floodgap.com>
References: <201905270409.x4R49WCr17301648@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <573EC30D-06E3-4572-A301-762C273CF8A0@reanimators.org>

On May 26, 2019, at 21:09, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
> I've been doing more work on my 9000/350 now that I have actual space to
> do work on it in. Although the 10b2 is flaky, I can usually coax it to work.
> 
> However, the damn thing won't query DNS even though I have a populated
> /etc/resolv.conf. It can ping the name server, and if the name server's
> name is in /etc/hosts it will resolve it (and even telnet to it), but it
> won't talk to it for anything else.

I read this far and thought "someone put nameserver host names in resolv.conf".

-Frank McConnell


From jsw at ieee.org  Mon May 27 01:09:19 2019
From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 01:09:19 -0500
Subject: HP/UX 8 and hosts vs DNS
In-Reply-To: <201905270531.x4R5VhB017694792@floodgap.com>
References: <201905270531.x4R5VhB017694792@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <e0d862e0-b781-30ab-59de-4c1495d1e772@ieee.org>



On 5/27/19 12:31 AM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote:
>>> I'm not as adept at HP/UX before 10.20 (my first experience with the OS),
>>> but I understand 8.0 "fails over" to /etc/hosts if it has some issues with
>>> DNS. Fine, but how can I get it to switch *back*? There's no
>>> /etc/nsswitch.conf and I don't think this version supports it anyway.
>>  From https://docstore.mik.ua/orelly/networking_2ndEd/dns/ch06_04.htm
>>
>> Before HP-UX 10.10, you could only use nsswitch.conf to configure the
>> order of resolution for the hosts source. From 10.10 on, you can also
>> use nsswitch.conf to configure resolution order for the services,
>> networks, protocols, rpc, and netgroup sources. hosts: dns
>> [NOTFOUND=return] nis [NOTFOUND=return] files"
> Appreciated, but from the same resource,
>
> 	"HP-UX 10.00 introduced Solaris's nsswitch.conf functionality"
>
> so this won't apply to HP/UX 8.
It was available for in 9.x, but not at first first release.? It was 
introduced through patches.
I don't know if 8.x received the same/similar patches.


From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Mon May 27 01:06:33 2019
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 07:06:33 +0100
Subject: 11/93 Rebuild
Message-ID: <939e4a0a-5880-557c-62fd-546ae24ff750@btinternet.com>

Hi

 ????? Thanks to Glen Slick I now have a old windows xp system running SIMH

 ???? Its connected to my LAN so web and file access are OK

 ???? In addition to the normal IDE drive it has an additional SCSI 
controller and drive

 ????? Using SIMH? I have created an image (RD54.dsk) containing a RSTS 
system.

 ???? I am awaiting the final instructions as to how to copy the image 
to the SCSI drive in such a way I can connect it to the SCSI controller 
in the 11/93 and have it boot.


Rod Smallwood



-- 



From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Mon May 27 02:25:17 2019
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 09:25:17 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: 11/93 Rebuild
In-Reply-To: <939e4a0a-5880-557c-62fd-546ae24ff750@btinternet.com>
References: <939e4a0a-5880-557c-62fd-546ae24ff750@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905270923190.10712@linuxserv.home>

On Mon, 27 May 2019, Rod Smallwood wrote:
> ???? In addition to the normal IDE drive it has an additional SCSI controller 
> and drive
>
> ????? Using SIMH? I have created an image (RD54.dsk) containing a RSTS 
> system.
>
> ???? I am awaiting the final instructions as to how to copy the image to the 
> SCSI drive in such a way I can connect it to the SCSI controller in the 11/93 
> and have it boot.

# dd if=RD54.dsk of=/dev/sda  [or whatever the device name is]

Oh, you said Windows... I'd recommend installing Cygwin ;-)

Christian

From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Mon May 27 03:30:13 2019
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 09:30:13 +0100
Subject: 11/93 Rebuild
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905270923190.10712@linuxserv.home>
References: <939e4a0a-5880-557c-62fd-546ae24ff750@btinternet.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905270923190.10712@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <d9ad6702-56ab-b82e-feaa-5b04c691f4c3@btinternet.com>

Hi

 ? On an old XP box?? er neither will run

Rod


On 27/05/2019 08:25, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:
> # dd if=RD54.dsk of=/dev/sda? [or whatever the device name is]
>
> Oh, you said Windows... I'd recommend installing Cygwin ;-)

-- 



From Rice43 at btinternet.com  Mon May 27 03:32:57 2019
From: Rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 09:32:57 +0100
Subject: 11/93 Rebuild
In-Reply-To: <d9ad6702-56ab-b82e-feaa-5b04c691f4c3@btinternet.com>
References: <939e4a0a-5880-557c-62fd-546ae24ff750@btinternet.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905270923190.10712@linuxserv.home>
 <d9ad6702-56ab-b82e-feaa-5b04c691f4c3@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <1BECB2FD-281C-4F9D-B881-B5888D5FD556@btinternet.com>

Same command will work from a linux live cd


> On May 27, 2019, at 9:30 AM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
>   On an old XP box?  er neither will run
> 
> Rod
> 
> 
> On 27/05/2019 08:25, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:
>> # dd if=RD54.dsk of=/dev/sda  [or whatever the device name is]
>> 
>> Oh, you said Windows... I'd recommend installing Cygwin ;-)
> 
> -- 
> 
> 


From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Mon May 27 03:56:37 2019
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 10:56:37 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: 11/93 Rebuild
In-Reply-To: <d9ad6702-56ab-b82e-feaa-5b04c691f4c3@btinternet.com>
References: <939e4a0a-5880-557c-62fd-546ae24ff750@btinternet.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905270923190.10712@linuxserv.home>
 <d9ad6702-56ab-b82e-feaa-5b04c691f4c3@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905271054390.11506@linuxserv.home>

On Mon, 27 May 2019, Rod Smallwood wrote:
> ? On an old XP box?? er neither will run

My reply was meant as a hint. You should be able to find a dd-like tool 
for Windows yourself ;-) Either by using a old version of Cygwin (there 
are instructions how to find them), by installing a stand-alone "dd" for 
Windows, whatever.

Christian

From stefan.skoglund at agj.net  Mon May 27 04:05:20 2019
From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 11:05:20 +0200
Subject: HP/UX 8 and hosts vs DNS
In-Reply-To: <201905270409.x4R49WCr17301648@floodgap.com>
References: <201905270409.x4R49WCr17301648@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <2ad68306f27a5488b36661c88af1c67d075cb87e.camel@agj.net>

s?n 2019-05-26 klockan 21:09 -0700 skrev Cameron Kaiser via cctalk:
> I've been doing more work on my 9000/350 now that I have actual space
> to
> do work on it in. Although the 10b2 is flaky, I can usually coax it
> to work.
> 

HPUX 8 has smit, doesn't it ?

I did some works with  HPUX almost 30 years ago but only used smit....


From stefan.skoglund at agj.net  Mon May 27 04:06:28 2019
From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 11:06:28 +0200
Subject: HP/UX 8 and hosts vs DNS
In-Reply-To: <201905270409.x4R49WCr17301648@floodgap.com>
References: <201905270409.x4R49WCr17301648@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <cdb55f91c8d38e2c1688781cbae3813f6b865393.camel@agj.net>

s?n 2019-05-26 klockan 21:09 -0700 skrev Cameron Kaiser via cctalk:
> I've been doing more work on my 9000/350 now that I have actual space
> to
> do work on it in. Although the 10b2 is flaky, I can usually coax it
> to work.
> 
> However, the damn thing won't query DNS even though I have a
> populated
> /etc/resolv.conf. It can ping the name server, and if the name
> server's
> name is in /etc/hosts it will resolve it (and even telnet to it), but
> it
> won't talk to it for anything else.
> 
> I'm not as adept at HP/UX before 10.20 (my first experience with the
> OS),
> but I understand 8.0 "fails over" to /etc/hosts if it has some issues
> with
> DNS. Fine, but how can I get it to switch *back*? There's no
> /etc/nsswitch.conf
> and I don't think this version supports it anyway.


look for sam(8) i believe.


From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Mon May 27 04:25:35 2019
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 10:25:35 +0100
Subject: 11/93 Rebuild
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905271054390.11506@linuxserv.home>
References: <939e4a0a-5880-557c-62fd-546ae24ff750@btinternet.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905270923190.10712@linuxserv.home>
 <d9ad6702-56ab-b82e-feaa-5b04c691f4c3@btinternet.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905271054390.11506@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <9bf863a9-ff49-c240-0849-8da357ea60b4@btinternet.com>

I think the answer may be PUTR but I'll wait and see what Glen says .. 
He's been right so far.

Rod


On 27/05/2019 09:56, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:
> On Mon, 27 May 2019, Rod Smallwood wrote:
>> ? On an old XP box?? er neither will run
>
> My reply was meant as a hint. You should be able to find a dd-like 
> tool for Windows yourself ;-) Either by using a old version of Cygwin 
> (there are instructions how to find them), by installing a stand-alone 
> "dd" for Windows, whatever.
>
> Christian

-- 



From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Mon May 27 04:28:24 2019
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 10:28:24 +0100
Subject: 11/93 Rebuild
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905271054390.11506@linuxserv.home>
References: <939e4a0a-5880-557c-62fd-546ae24ff750@btinternet.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905270923190.10712@linuxserv.home>
 <d9ad6702-56ab-b82e-feaa-5b04c691f4c3@btinternet.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905271054390.11506@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <2b4a01d5146e$88c81630$9a584290$@gmail.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Christian Corti
> via cctalk
> Sent: 27 May 2019 09:57
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: 11/93 Rebuild
> 
> On Mon, 27 May 2019, Rod Smallwood wrote:
> >   On an old XP box?  er neither will run
> 
> My reply was meant as a hint. You should be able to find a dd-like tool for
> Windows yourself ;-) Either by using a old version of Cygwin (there are
> instructions how to find them), by installing a stand-alone "dd" for Windows,
> whatever.
> 
> Christian

There are windows based, so GUI disk imaging tools for windows. I think I used WIN32DISKIMAGER las time I needed this.

https://sourceforge.net/projects/win32diskimager/

Dave


From lproven at gmail.com  Mon May 27 04:54:54 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 11:54:54 +0200
Subject: Modern BLISS compiler
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFckWNcVmOQ1Jjx7dHSvrre1X0Xw+tJsu44C2Nze0YiyA@mail.gmail.com>

This just came up on Fess Bouc. I did not know that it existed.

It's an LLVM-backed modern compiler for BLISS.

https://madisongh.github.io/blissc/

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From evanlinwood at hotmail.com  Mon May 27 07:31:50 2019
From: evanlinwood at hotmail.com (Evan Linwood)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 12:31:50 +0000
Subject: Abandoned FACOM system in Italy?
Message-ID: <MN2PR20MB286160BFF279379CE9B13E87AB1D0@MN2PR20MB2861.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>

I'm guessing this could be known to others on the list, but I haven't seen it mentioned, so posting just in case.
There doesn't seem to be mention of any recovery effort in the comments (that I could see).
The most interesting section is from 14:14:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrx1tK5xcAk
[https://www.bing.com/th?id=OVP.nmj3ysj3FfGgc8gP7yLUrAEsDh&pid=Api]<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrx1tK5xcAk>
Huge Abandoned Clothing Factory - Found Vintage Computers!<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrx1tK5xcAk>
Go to https://NordVPN.com/properpeople and or use code PROPERPEOPLE to to get 75% off a 3 year plan. Protect yourself online today! In this episode, we explore a massive textile factory that had offices filled with old computer equipment and waterlogged fabric samples. Broken Window Theory: https://www.youtube.com/brokenwindowtheoryurbex https ...
www.youtube.com


From evanlinwood at hotmail.com  Mon May 27 07:44:32 2019
From: evanlinwood at hotmail.com (Evan Linwood)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 12:44:32 +0000
Subject: IBM lifting tool
Message-ID: <MN2PR20MB28617F06C7C7EC63A7F00DE2AB1D0@MN2PR20MB2861.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>

While I'm on a roll, I saw this one randomly also - seems to have been a topic of interest to the list not long ago?
It's a bit short & limited in terms of load but might suit someone
https://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-ES-3090-PROCESSOR-COMPLEX-SERVER-RACK-LIFT-TOOL-DOLLY-LOCAL-PICKUP-IN-CA/302740671139?hash=item467cc00aa3:g:idUAAOSw-YZa~D-D
[https://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/302740671139-0-1/s-l1000.jpg]<https://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-ES-3090-PROCESSOR-COMPLEX-SERVER-RACK-LIFT-TOOL-DOLLY-LOCAL-PICKUP-IN-CA/302740671139?hash=item467cc00aa3:g:idUAAOSw-YZa~D-D>
IBM ES/3090 PROCESSOR COMPLEX SERVER RACK LIFT TOOL DOLLY LOCAL PICKUP IN CA | eBay<https://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-ES-3090-PROCESSOR-COMPLEX-SERVER-RACK-LIFT-TOOL-DOLLY-LOCAL-PICKUP-IN-CA/302740671139?hash=item467cc00aa3:g:idUAAOSw-YZa~D-D>
Used condition server rack lift dolly. Used to lift servers up and down for installation/ servicing of servers. Capable of lifting 200 pounds. In good working condition. LOCAL PICKUP ONLY IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA
www.ebay.com


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Mon May 27 08:03:59 2019
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 09:03:59 -0400
Subject: 11/93 Rebuild
In-Reply-To: <9bf863a9-ff49-c240-0849-8da357ea60b4@btinternet.com>
References: <939e4a0a-5880-557c-62fd-546ae24ff750@btinternet.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905270923190.10712@linuxserv.home>
 <d9ad6702-56ab-b82e-feaa-5b04c691f4c3@btinternet.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905271054390.11506@linuxserv.home>
 <9bf863a9-ff49-c240-0849-8da357ea60b4@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <1A705D2B-1716-4F36-8068-801876F86BC8@comcast.net>

Or FLX.  FLX 2.6 uses DJGPP and runs on old stuff, possibly as far back as actual DOS and certainly should have no problem with XP.  It doesn't do image copy, though.  You could steal some of the code and make an image copy tool.  Or you could use it to initialize the destination disk, copy all the files, and "hook" to write the boot block.

	paul

> On May 27, 2019, at 5:25 AM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> I think the answer may be PUTR but I'll wait and see what Glen says .. He's been right so far.
> 
> Rod
> 
> 
> On 27/05/2019 09:56, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 May 2019, Rod Smallwood wrote:
>>>   On an old XP box?  er neither will run
>> 
>> My reply was meant as a hint. You should be able to find a dd-like tool for Windows yourself ;-) Either by using a old version of Cygwin (there are instructions how to find them), by installing a stand-alone "dd" for Windows, whatever.
>> 
>> Christian
> 
> -- 
> 
> 


From w2hx at w2hx.com  Mon May 27 08:20:23 2019
From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 13:20:23 +0000
Subject: 11/93 Rebuild
In-Reply-To: <1A705D2B-1716-4F36-8068-801876F86BC8@comcast.net>
References: <939e4a0a-5880-557c-62fd-546ae24ff750@btinternet.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905270923190.10712@linuxserv.home>
 <d9ad6702-56ab-b82e-feaa-5b04c691f4c3@btinternet.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905271054390.11506@linuxserv.home>
 <9bf863a9-ff49-c240-0849-8da357ea60b4@btinternet.com>,
 <1A705D2B-1716-4F36-8068-801876F86BC8@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <1558963221983.45254@w2hx.com>

I would love it if anyone on this list who maintains a wiki for PDP-11's could collect all of the various methods and instructions. I am still far from ready to do things like this (moving images to a PDP) but it is in my future. I could go through all the emails in the archive on the subject (thats fine) but a wiki to go to where everything is consolidated would be enormously helpful

________________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Paul Koning via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, May 27, 2019 9:03 AM
To: Rod Smallwood; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: 11/93 Rebuild

Or FLX.  FLX 2.6 uses DJGPP and runs on old stuff, possibly as far back as actual DOS and certainly should have no problem with XP.  It doesn't do image copy, though.  You could steal some of the code and make an image copy tool.  Or you could use it to initialize the destination disk, copy all the files, and "hook" to write the boot block.

        paul

> On May 27, 2019, at 5:25 AM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> I think the answer may be PUTR but I'll wait and see what Glen says .. He's been right so far.
>
> Rod
>
>
> On 27/05/2019 09:56, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 May 2019, Rod Smallwood wrote:
>>>   On an old XP box?  er neither will run
>>
>> My reply was meant as a hint. You should be able to find a dd-like tool for Windows yourself ;-) Either by using a old version of Cygwin (there are instructions how to find them), by installing a stand-alone "dd" for Windows, whatever.
>>
>> Christian
>
> --
>
>


From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Mon May 27 08:58:30 2019
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 14:58:30 +0100
Subject: 11/93 rebuild
Message-ID: <5eb7bd2f-396a-a812-42e8-57f7befbb0b7@btinternet.com>

Hi

 ??? Whilst I wait to hear from Glen Slick who has got me this far 
(Thanks Glen) I'll restate the problem.

1. I now have an old XP system with SIMH on it (PDP11.exe)

2.? I have created RD54.dsk containing RSTS/E

3. Attached to the system is a 2.1Gb SCSI drive via an adaptec 2940 
controller

4. I need a tried and tested list of step by step instructions to put 
RD54.dsk on the SCSI drive.

5. The drive will then be moved to a CQD-220A/TM SCSI controller on my 
KDJ11-E based 11/93 and must boot.

6. Its just an image copy from one drive to another on the same system.

7. Nobody has come up with a tried and tested list of step by step 
instructions yet.


Rod Smallwood


-- 



From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon May 27 10:23:11 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 11:23:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: 11/93 rebuild
Message-ID: <20190527152311.0706818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Rod Smallwood

    > 4. I need a tried and tested list of step by step instructions to
    > put RD54.dsk on the SCSI drive.

Well, this isn't a list of directions, but... I've had good luck doing
almost this exact same thing (on a Windows XP box, copy a filesystem in
Windoze file onto a device, in my case an SD card on a USB adapter) with
'dd for Windows', available here:

  http://www.chrysocome.net/dd

The command line I've worked out to use is:

  dd-removable if=UnixRoot of=\\?\Device\Harddisk2\Partition0 count=4872 seek=131072

I don't recall the exact procedure I used to generate that, but I'm pretty
sure it involved the use of the "--list" command to 'dd', to get a list of
the devices on the system. (The "4872" is the size of the RK pack,
obviously.)

I'm using dd-0.6beta3.zip but there may be a later version that works too.

	Noel

From holm at freibergnet.de  Mon May 27 11:14:40 2019
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 18:14:40 +0200
Subject: 11/93 rebuild
In-Reply-To: <5eb7bd2f-396a-a812-42e8-57f7befbb0b7@btinternet.com>
References: <5eb7bd2f-396a-a812-42e8-57f7befbb0b7@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <20190527161440.GC88747@beast.freibergnet.de>

Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote:

> Hi
> 
>  ??? Whilst I wait to hear from Glen Slick who has got me this far 
> (Thanks Glen) I'll restate the problem.
> 
> 1. I now have an old XP system with SIMH on it (PDP11.exe)
> 
> 2.? I have created RD54.dsk containing RSTS/E
> 
> 3. Attached to the system is a 2.1Gb SCSI drive via an adaptec 2940 
> controller
> 
> 4. I need a tried and tested list of step by step instructions to put 
> RD54.dsk on the SCSI drive.
> 
> 5. The drive will then be moved to a CQD-220A/TM SCSI controller on my 
> KDJ11-E based 11/93 and must boot.
> 
> 6. Its just an image copy from one drive to another on the same system.
> 
> 7. Nobody has come up with a tried and tested list of step by step 
> instructions yet.
> 
> 
> Rod Smallwood
> 

I don't think that you have any chance to get that to work, since the
data structures on the floppy disk will be different to that needed
structure on the scsi disk. As far as I know the controllers put some
kind of partitioning information to the disks too...

I've installed different PDP11 Os'es from simh to the real
pdp11/(53,73,83) using simh's tape interface writing boot tapes.
I've converted the simh's tape file with my own utility to an qarter
inch tape connected to an Tandberg SLR5 to my FreeBSD box. as far as I
know in the meantime there exists an utility similar to mine that could
write out tapes from a tape file.

I've connected another SLR5 drive to the PDP11 box with an Emulex UC08,
Im sure that will work on the CQD220 too.
An Tandberg SLR5 and Tapes should be easy to et on ebay.

I've installed RT11, RSX11, XXDP and 2.11BSD this way.

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From holm at freibergnet.de  Mon May 27 11:16:13 2019
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 18:16:13 +0200
Subject: 11/93 rebuild
In-Reply-To: <20190527152311.0706818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190527152311.0706818C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20190527161613.GD88747@beast.freibergnet.de>

Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:

>     > From: Rod Smallwood
> 
>     > 4. I need a tried and tested list of step by step instructions to
>     > put RD54.dsk on the SCSI drive.
> 
> Well, this isn't a list of directions, but... I've had good luck doing
> almost this exact same thing (on a Windows XP box, copy a filesystem in
> Windoze file onto a device, in my case an SD card on a USB adapter) with
> 'dd for Windows', available here:
> 
>   http://www.chrysocome.net/dd
> 
> The command line I've worked out to use is:
> 
>   dd-removable if=UnixRoot of=\\?\Device\Harddisk2\Partition0 count=4872 seek=131072
> 
> I don't recall the exact procedure I used to generate that, but I'm pretty
> sure it involved the use of the "--list" command to 'dd', to get a list of
> the devices on the system. (The "4872" is the size of the RK pack,
> obviously.)
> 
> I'm using dd-0.6beta3.zip but there may be a later version that works too.
> 
> 	Noel

You have to have an already existing parition structure on the disk and
an OS that knows what todo with that.
There is no way that Ron could boot his PDP this way.

Regards,
Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Mon May 27 11:22:51 2019
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 09:22:51 -0700
Subject: 11/93 rebuild
In-Reply-To: <5eb7bd2f-396a-a812-42e8-57f7befbb0b7@btinternet.com>
References: <5eb7bd2f-396a-a812-42e8-57f7befbb0b7@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwKgfbdh7eYQggT-DQ94hkzN5-Vd2Udq8o56ous-JM651w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 6:58 AM Rod Smallwood via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Hi
>
>      Whilst I wait to hear from Glen Slick who has got me this far
> (Thanks Glen) I'll restate the problem.
>
> 1. I now have an old XP system with SIMH on it (PDP11.exe)
>
> 2.  I have created RD54.dsk containing RSTS/E
>
> 3. Attached to the system is a 2.1Gb SCSI drive via an adaptec 2940
> controller
>
> 4. I need a tried and tested list of step by step instructions to put
> RD54.dsk on the SCSI drive.
>
> 5. The drive will then be moved to a CQD-220A/TM SCSI controller on my
> KDJ11-E based 11/93 and must boot.
>
> 6. Its just an image copy from one drive to another on the same system.
>
> 7. Nobody has come up with a tried and tested list of step by step
> instructions yet.

OK, now that you have an RD54 disk image and a 2GB SCSI drive attached
to an Adaptec 2940 controller on a Windows XP system, the first thing
I would do is resize the capacity of the 2GB SCSI drive to match the
capacity of an RD54 drive.

To do that, I would download sg3_utils ( http://sg.danny.cz/sg/sg3_utils.html ).

Specifically I would download version 1.37 of the Windows binaries here:
http://sg.danny.cz/sg/p/sg3_utils-1.37exe.zip

The current version is 1.44, which I have not tried yet. The last time
I tried version 1.42 I had some issues so I went back to version 1.37
so that I what I suggest for now.

The RD54 disk image that was previously created has a block size of
311,200 and a byte size of 159,334,400.

The goal in this step is to resize the capacity of the SCSI drive so
that when it is attached to CMD CQD-220, the capacity of the drive as
reported through the MSCP interface will match that of the RD54 disk
image. What I have observed with the CMD CQD-220 controllers that I
have is that they report a capacity of 2 blocks smaller through the
MSCP interface than the SCSI drive reports. That is with the CMD
CQD-220 controller reset to default settings of a single unit for the
drive, not split into 2 or 4 units.

So the SCSI drive should report a capacity of 311,202 (311,200 + 2)
blocks in this case.

With the sg3_utils-1.37 binaries download and extracted on your
Windows XP system with the 2GB SCSI drive connected to the AHA-2940
controller, you could do this:

// Use sg_scan to see what drives are attached. In this example
physical drive "PD1" is the target drive. This will vary depending on
the configuration of your system. Find the physical drive name entry
that matches your target drive.

C:\sg3_utils-1.37>sg_scan
PD0     [C]     HDS728040PLAT20  PF1OA21B
PD1             COMPAQPC  DDRS-39130W       S99C
CDROM0  [Z]     TEAC CD-224E  1.7A

// Use sg_inq to send a SCSI Inquiry command to the physical drive to
verify that the vendor and product information seems correct for the
target drive. If you don't want to be making changes to the wrong
drive.

C:\sg3_utils-1.37>sg_inq pd1
standard INQUIRY:
  PQual=0  Device_type=0  RMB=0  version=0x02  [SCSI-2]
  [AERC=0]  [TrmTsk=0]  NormACA=0  HiSUP=0  Resp_data_format=2
  SCCS=0  ACC=0  TPGS=0  3PC=0  Protect=0  [BQue=0]
  EncServ=0  MultiP=0  [MChngr=0]  [ACKREQQ=0]  Addr16=0
  [RelAdr=0]  WBus16=1  Sync=1  Linked=1  [TranDis=0]  CmdQue=1
  [SPI: Clocking=0x0  QAS=0  IUS=0]
    length=164 (0xa4)   Peripheral device type: disk
 Vendor identification: COMPAQPC
 Product identification: DDRS-39130W
 Product revision level: S99C
 Unit serial number: REGA0360

// Use sg_readcap to send a SCSI Read Capacity command to the physical
drive. Make a note of the current number of blocks and write that down
in case you might want to return the drive to its native capacity
sometime later.

C:\sg3_utils-1.37>sg_readcap pd1
Read Capacity results:
   Last logical block address=17773499 (0x10f33bb), Number of blocks=17773500
   Logical block length=512 bytes
Hence:
   Device size: 9100032000 bytes, 8678.47 MiB, 9.10003 GB

 // Ok, now time to actually use sg_format --resize to change the
reported capacity of the drive. The --resize option does not do a low
level format of the drive. It uses a SCSI Mode Select command to
change the capacity of the drive as reported by a SCSI Read Capacity
command. Here the block count is 311,202 (311,200 + 2) blocks.

C:\sg3_utils-1.37>sg_format --count=311202 --resize --verbose pd1
    inquiry cdb: 12 00 00 00 24 00
    COMPAQPC  DDRS-39130W       S99C   peripheral_type: disk [0x0]
      PROTECT=0
    mode sense (10) cdb: 5a 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 fc 00
    mode sense (10): pass-through requested 252 bytes but got 28 bytes
Mode Sense (block descriptor) data, prior to changes:
  Number of blocks=17773500 [0x10f33bc]
  Block size=512 [0x200]
    mode select (10) cdb: 55 11 00 00 00 00 00 00 1c 00
Resize operation seems to have been successful

// Use sg_readcap again to verify that the change took effect as
desired. The new disk size of 159,335,424 bytes is 1024 (2 blocks)
larger than the disk image size 159,334,400

C:\sg3_utils-1.37>sg_readcap pd1
Read Capacity results:
   Last logical block address=311201 (0x4bfa1), Number of blocks=311202
   Logical block length=512 bytes
Hence:
   Device size: 159335424 bytes, 151.954 MiB, 0.159335 GB

// sg_format --resize has worked with the drives that I have tried. I
suppose that it is possible that some drives might not support this.

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Mon May 27 11:23:38 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 10:23:38 -0600
Subject: HP/UX 8 and hosts vs DNS
In-Reply-To: <2ad68306f27a5488b36661c88af1c67d075cb87e.camel@agj.net>
References: <201905270409.x4R49WCr17301648@floodgap.com>
 <2ad68306f27a5488b36661c88af1c67d075cb87e.camel@agj.net>
Message-ID: <b715caaa-2092-c920-cd84-d5197b2cc552@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 5/27/19 3:05 AM, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk wrote:
> HPUX 8 has smit, doesn't it ?

Do you mean "sam"?

I thought "smit(ty)" was AIX's counterpart to HP-UX's "sam".



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Mon May 27 11:27:26 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 10:27:26 -0600
Subject: HP/UX 8 and hosts vs DNS
In-Reply-To: <201905270525.x4R5PICS22741156@floodgap.com>
References: <201905270525.x4R5PICS22741156@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <909b4f3e-5661-ecfb-41b8-1d002bb2c0b4@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 5/26/19 11:25 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote:
> Irrelevant here, because it's a BIND 4 server on the other end too 
> (on purpose since I have other older systems that need it). HP/UX 8 
> is also BIND 4.

ACK

> That's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure when to do this. By the 
> time I actually get a root prompt, nslookup says it's already checking 
> hosts and refuses to do otherwise.

I have no idea what sort of sniffers exist(ed) for HP-UX.  But based on 
timing, it sounds like you need something off box.

I keep an old hub around just for things like this.  Machine in 
question, uplink, and the sniffer.  Then I start tcpdump or wireshark on 
the sniffer before booting the machine in question.

I've learned to trust the bits on the wire.  At least until I have 
something to suggest that they are corrupted.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From phb.hfx at gmail.com  Mon May 27 11:33:28 2019
From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 13:33:28 -0300
Subject: HP/UX 8 and hosts vs DNS
In-Reply-To: <b715caaa-2092-c920-cd84-d5197b2cc552@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <201905270409.x4R49WCr17301648@floodgap.com>
 <2ad68306f27a5488b36661c88af1c67d075cb87e.camel@agj.net>
 <b715caaa-2092-c920-cd84-d5197b2cc552@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <10089d32-f584-5df6-5f3d-a69bf9a35c0e@gmail.com>

Yes SMIT is an AIX system management utility first introduced with AIX 
for RS/6000 Ver 3, start with HPUX 10 HP did however include Logical 
Volume Manager (LVM) which was also introduced in AIX 3.0

Paul.

On 2019-05-27 1:23 p.m., Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> On 5/27/19 3:05 AM, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk wrote:
>> HPUX 8 has smit, doesn't it ?
>
> Do you mean "sam"?
>
> I thought "smit(ty)" was AIX's counterpart to HP-UX's "sam".
>
>
>

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Mon May 27 12:20:41 2019
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 13:20:41 -0400
Subject: 11/93 rebuild
In-Reply-To: <20190527161440.GC88747@beast.freibergnet.de>
References: <5eb7bd2f-396a-a812-42e8-57f7befbb0b7@btinternet.com>
 <20190527161440.GC88747@beast.freibergnet.de>
Message-ID: <2CD4EA94-4BBF-465A-BC95-467125ABA25D@comcast.net>



> On May 27, 2019, at 12:14 PM, Holm Tiffe via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> Hi
>> 
>>     Whilst I wait to hear from Glen Slick who has got me this far 
>> (Thanks Glen) I'll restate the problem.
>> 
>> 1. I now have an old XP system with SIMH on it (PDP11.exe)
>> 
>> 2.  I have created RD54.dsk containing RSTS/E
>> 
>> 3. Attached to the system is a 2.1Gb SCSI drive via an adaptec 2940 
>> controller
>> 
>> 4. I need a tried and tested list of step by step instructions to put 
>> RD54.dsk on the SCSI drive.
>> 
>> 5. The drive will then be moved to a CQD-220A/TM SCSI controller on my 
>> KDJ11-E based 11/93 and must boot.
>> 
>> 6. Its just an image copy from one drive to another on the same system.
>> 
>> 7. Nobody has come up with a tried and tested list of step by step 
>> instructions yet.
>> 
>> 
>> Rod Smallwood
>> 
> 
> I don't think that you have any chance to get that to work, since the
> data structures on the floppy disk will be different to that needed
> structure on the scsi disk. As far as I know the controllers put some
> kind of partitioning information to the disks too...

Floppy?  I don't see that mentioned.

RSTS can handle image copies without trouble if the sizes match, or if destination is slightly bigger.

Partitions -- there is no such thing on RSTS.

Writing disks is no problem if you have a program that can write raw block devies, and an OS that lets you do this.  Sufficiently old Windows can do this via the BIOS I/O machinery; I've done it for RX50 floppies though not for hard drives (don't have any).

RX50 floppies do have two complications: 10 sectors per track rather than the PC standard 9, and a sector layout with interleaving and track skew.  It's not hard to deal with this in software once you have the details reverse engineered.  FLX does this, it's how I've created PRO boot floppies on my PC.

	paul


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Mon May 27 12:23:07 2019
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 10:23:07 -0700
Subject: 11/93 rebuild
In-Reply-To: <5eb7bd2f-396a-a812-42e8-57f7befbb0b7@btinternet.com>
References: <5eb7bd2f-396a-a812-42e8-57f7befbb0b7@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOw+LGBcf_uc1Becp2tU4+CZ12KadA6VjGgVrYT-br5z3Gw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 6:58 AM Rod Smallwood via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Hi
>
>      Whilst I wait to hear from Glen Slick who has got me this far
> (Thanks Glen) I'll restate the problem.
>
> 1. I now have an old XP system with SIMH on it (PDP11.exe)
>
> 2.  I have created RD54.dsk containing RSTS/E
>
> 3. Attached to the system is a 2.1Gb SCSI drive via an adaptec 2940
> controller
>
> 4. I need a tried and tested list of step by step instructions to put
> RD54.dsk on the SCSI drive.
>
> 5. The drive will then be moved to a CQD-220A/TM SCSI controller on my
> KDJ11-E based 11/93 and must boot.
>
> 6. Its just an image copy from one drive to another on the same system.
>
> 7. Nobody has come up with a tried and tested list of step by step
> instructions yet.

After using sg3_utils sg_format to resize the capacity of the the SCSI
drive to match the size of the RD54 disk image, you can the use
something equivalent to 'dd' to copy the RD54 disk image to the SCSI
drive. On a Windows system I use a simple utility I wrote myself years
ago. I will send Rod a copy of that directly off list. Similar
utilities can be found online if you search around. I haven't found
any that I will recommend myself.

After the RD54 disk image has been copied to the physical SCSI drive
on your Windows system, move it over to the PDP-11/93 system with the
CMD CQD-220 controller. Use the CQD-220 firmware utilities to check
that the SCSI drive is recognized and configured as a single DU unit.
It might be a good idea to use the 'Z' configuration option to reset
the controller to the default settings. The output below was from a
CQD-220. The firmware on your CQD-220A may differ slightly with more
options, but it is the same general idea.

SCSI HOST ADAPTER UTILITY  (REV. A8)

[ DISK ]                            : [ TAPE ]
   1 = LOGICAL UNIT NUMBER OFFSET   :    6 = LOGICAL UNIT NUMBER OFFSET
   2 = FORMAT DRIVE                 :    7 = ADDITIONAL UTILITIES
   3 = QUALIFY DRIVE                :
   4 = MANUALLY REPLACE BAD BLOCKS  :
   5 = ADDITIONAL UTILITIES         :

SELECT OPTION ?   5

ADDITIONAL UTILITIES  (REV. A8)        SN = 9478

   D = DISPLAY SCSI DEVICE & SETUP CONFIGURATION
   S = SEND SCSI COMMAND TO THE DEVICE
   T = TEST SCSI DEVICE
   R = FORMAT RCT BLOCK

SELECT OPTION ?  D

CURRENT CONFIGURATION :

DEV0: DU0  SCSI ID 0  LUN 0
      Disconnect ON,Sync Mode ON,Prevent Medium Removal ON,Write W/Verify OFF,
DEV1: DU1  SCSI ID 1  LUN 0
      Disconnect ON,Sync Mode ON,Prevent Medium Removal ON,Write W/Verify OFF,
DEV2: DU2  SCSI ID 2  LUN 0
      Disconnect ON,Sync Mode ON,Prevent Medium Removal ON,Write W/Verify OFF,
DEV3: DU3  SCSI ID 3  LUN 0
      Disconnect ON,Sync Mode ON,Prevent Medium Removal ON,Write W/Verify OFF,
DEV4: MU0  SCSI ID 4  LUN 0
      Disconnect ON,Sync Mode ON,Prevent Medium Removal ON,Buffer Mode ON,
DEV5: MU1  SCSI ID 5  LUN 0
      Disconnect ON,Sync Mode ON,Prevent Medium Removal ON,Buffer Mode ON,
DEV6: MU2  SCSI ID 6  LUN 0
      Disconnect ON,Sync Mode ON,Prevent Medium Removal ON,Buffer Mode ON,
DEV7  SCSI ID 7  HOST ADAPTER, SCSI Reset ON,Density Mode ON,
CHANGE CONFIGURATION ? (Y/N) Y
  R = Toggle SCSI Reset,  M = Toggle Density Mode
  D = Toggle Disconnect,  B = Toggle Buffer Mode (Tape only)
  S = Toggle Sync/Async,  W = Toggle Write w/Verify (Disk only)
  C = Reconfigure Device, P = Toggle Prevent Medium Removal
  T = Reset All Device Modes to Default
  Z = Reset Controller to Default Configuration

SELECT OPTION ?  Z
DEV0: DU0  SCSI ID 0  LUN 0
      Disconnect ON,Sync Mode ON,Prevent Medium Removal ON,Write W/Verify OFF,
DEV1: DU1  SCSI ID 1  LUN 0
      Disconnect ON,Sync Mode ON,Prevent Medium Removal ON,Write W/Verify OFF,
DEV2: DU2  SCSI ID 2  LUN 0
      Disconnect ON,Sync Mode ON,Prevent Medium Removal ON,Write W/Verify OFF,
DEV3: DU3  SCSI ID 3  LUN 0
      Disconnect ON,Sync Mode ON,Prevent Medium Removal ON,Write W/Verify OFF,
DEV4: MU0  SCSI ID 4  LUN 0
      Disconnect ON,Sync Mode ON,Prevent Medium Removal ON,Buffer Mode ON,
DEV5: MU1  SCSI ID 5  LUN 0
      Disconnect ON,Sync Mode ON,Prevent Medium Removal ON,Buffer Mode ON,
DEV6: MU2  SCSI ID 6  LUN 0
      Disconnect ON,Sync Mode ON,Prevent Medium Removal ON,Buffer Mode ON,
DEV7  SCSI ID 7  HOST ADAPTER, SCSI Reset ON,Density Mode ON,
CHANGE CONFIGURATION ? (Y/N) N

SCANNING SCSI DEVICES ATTACHED ...

DEV0: DU0  SCSI ID 0  LUN 0  COMPAQPCDDRS-39130W     S99C
      Disconnect ON,Sync Mode ON,Prevent Medium Removal ON,Write W/Verify OFF,
DEV1: DU1  SCSI ID 1  LUN 0  OFFLINE
      Disconnect ON,Sync Mode ON,Prevent Medium Removal ON,Write W/Verify OFF,
DEV2: DU2  SCSI ID 2  LUN 0  OFFLINE
      Disconnect ON,Sync Mode ON,Prevent Medium Removal ON,Write W/Verify OFF,
DEV3: DU3  SCSI ID 3  LUN 0  OFFLINE
      Disconnect ON,Sync Mode ON,Prevent Medium Removal ON,Write W/Verify OFF,
DEV4: MU0  SCSI ID 4  LUN 0  OFFLINE
      Disconnect ON,Sync Mode ON,Prevent Medium Removal ON,Buffer Mode ON,
DEV5: MU1  SCSI ID 5  LUN 0  OFFLINE
      Disconnect ON,Sync Mode ON,Prevent Medium Removal ON,Buffer Mode ON,
DEV6: MU2  SCSI ID 6  LUN 0  OFFLINE
      Disconnect ON,Sync Mode ON,Prevent Medium Removal ON,Buffer Mode ON,
DEV7  SCSI ID 7  HOST ADAPTER, SCSI Reset ON,Density Mode ON,
CHANGE CONFIGURATION ? (Y/N) N

Then boot from DU0, and if everything worked along the way it should
just work. Assuming it boots OK into RSTS/E 10.0, use the SHOW DISK
command to verify that the reported disk size is the expected 311200
blocks.

The output below is booting from the SCSI disk on a KDJ11-D 11/53.

9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1

Commands are Help, Boot, List, Map, Test and Wrap.
Type a command then press the RETURN key: BOOT DU0


DU0

RSTS V10.0-L RSTS   (DU0) INIT V10.0-0L


Today's date? 19.5.27

Current time? 9:50


Start timesharing? <Yes>

Default memory allocation table shows MORE
memory than INIT detects on this machine.

Adjusting memory table.

  Memory allocation table:

     0K: 00000000 - 00503777 (  81K) : EXEC
    81K: 00504000 - 01547777 ( 137K) : USER
   218K: 01550000 - 03777777 ( 294K) : XBUF
   512K: 04000000 - 05777777 ( 256K) : USER
   768K: 06000000 - 17757777 (1276K) : NXM

Memory available to RSTS/E is 768K words.

;9.05.27 09:50
Proceed with system startup? <YES>

 Beginning RSTS/E system startup...
19.05.27  09:50      Installing monitor overlays
19.05.27  09:50      Mounting disks
19.05.27  09:50      Assigning logical names
19.05.27  09:50      Starting error logging
19.05.27  09:50      Setting system characteristics
27-May-19 09:50 AM   Installing run-time systems and libraries
27-May-19 09:50 AM   Starting Operator/Message Services
?Invalid time
?Undefined symbol
?Undefined symbol

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  OMS V10.0-K  27-May-19 09:50 AM  <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message 4 from OMS, user [1,2], Detached, job 3
Starting Operator/Message Services
27-May-19 09:50 AM   Setting terminal characteristics
27-May-19 09:50 AM   Defining system commands
27-May-19 09:50 AM   Setting printer characteristics
27-May-19 09:50 AM   Starting spoolers

*** From [1,2] on KB0: at 09:50 AM 27-May-19
** RSTS/E is on the air...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  OMS V10.0-K  27-May-19 09:51 AM  <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message 5 from user [1,2] on _KB0:, job 2
The system startup is complete

RSTS V10.0-L 27-May-19 09:51 AM
User: 1,2
Password:

Jobs detached under this account:
   Job  What  Size  State   Run-time   RTS
    1  ERRCPY 5K    SR          15.7  ...RSX
    3  OMS    9K    SL           1.7  ...RSX
    4  PBS... 18K   SL           1.8  ...RSX
Job number to attach to?
Last interactive login on 27-May-19, 09:50 AM at KB0:
Last non-interactive login on 27-May-19, 09:50 AM
3 other users are logged in under this account


$ SHOW DISK

Disk Structure:
Dsk  Open    Size      Free    Clu   Err Name      Level  Comments
DU0    22  311200  256560  82%   8     0 RSTS10     1.2   Pub, DLW

$ SHOW SYSTEM
System name:                     RSTS V10.0-L RSTS/E V10.0
Currently installed Monitor:     RSTS
Swap Maximum:                    66K
Date format:                     Alphabetic
Time format:                     AM_PM
Magtape label default:           DOS
Magtape density default:         1600 BPI
Power fail restart delay:        300 seconds
Dynamic Region Limit:            0K words
Hangup:                          Delayed
Monitor Statistics:              Disabled
Job limit:                       63
Current jobs:                    4
Password Prompting:              Network and Dialup users
LAT Software:                    Not Installed  Upon reboot: installed
FMS Software:                    Not Installed
Current Pseudo keyboards:        4
Answerback message:              None

$ RUN SHUTUP
SHUTUP   V10.0-K   RSTS V10.0-L RSTS/E V10.0

09:51 AM 27-May-19  ########     Set-up Dialogue Phase      ########

Type '^' to any query to backup one question

Allow Print/Batch Services jobs to complete <YES>?
Minutes until system shutdown (0-99) <5>?
Minutes until logins are disabled (0-4) <0>?
Shutdown with automatic RESTART <NO>?

09:51 AM 27-May-19  ########     Warning Message Phase      ########
5 minute warning message sent
Further LOGINs are now disabled
3 minute warning message sent
2 minute warning message sent
1 minute warning message sent

09:56 AM 27-May-19  ########   Initial Job Killing Phase    ########

09:56 AM 27-May-19  ########   Print/Batch Shutdown Phase   ########
Print/Batch Services shutdown complete at 09:56 AM

09:56 AM 27-May-19  ########       OMS Shutdown Phase       ########

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  OMS V10.0-K  27-May-19 09:56 AM  <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message 6 from SHUTUP, operator [1,2] on _KB0:, job 2
Operator/Message Services shutting down
Operator/Message Services shutdown complete at 09:56 AM

09:56 AM 27-May-19  ########     EVTLOG Shutdown Phase      ########

09:56 AM 27-May-19  ########     ERRCPY Shutdown Phase      ########

09:56 AM 27-May-19  ########    Remove RTS/RES LIB Phase    ########

09:56 AM 27-May-19  ########     Log File Closing Phase     ########

09:56 AM 27-May-19  ########    SWAP File Removal Phase     ########

09:56 AM 27-May-19  ########      Disk DISMOUNT Phase       ########

09:56 AM 27-May-19  ########      Final Shutdown Phase      ########

Please wait for system to re-boot itself

RSTS V10.0-L RSTS   (DU0) INIT V10.0-0L

;9.05.27 09:57


Start timesharing? <Yes> NO


Option: <Start> HARDWARE

  HARDWR suboption? LIST

  Name  Address Vector  Comments
  TT0:   177560   060
  RU0:   172150  P310   UDA50   Units: 0(RA80)
  MU0:   174500  P314   TU81    Units: 0(TU81)
  KL0:   176500   300

  KW11L  177546   100   (Write-only)

  Hertz = 50.

  Other: FPU, 22-Bit, Data space, J11-D CPU

  HARDWR suboption?


Option: <Start>

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Mon May 27 12:37:42 2019
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 13:37:42 -0400
Subject: 11/93 rebuild
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOw+LGBcf_uc1Becp2tU4+CZ12KadA6VjGgVrYT-br5z3Gw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5eb7bd2f-396a-a812-42e8-57f7befbb0b7@btinternet.com>
 <CAM2UOw+LGBcf_uc1Becp2tU4+CZ12KadA6VjGgVrYT-br5z3Gw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <217DED6C-A04C-447A-9553-434B8C54CA3F@comcast.net>



> On May 27, 2019, at 1:23 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> ...
> Then boot from DU0, and if everything worked along the way it should
> just work. Assuming it boots OK into RSTS/E 10.0, use the SHOW DISK
> command to verify that the reported disk size is the expected 311200
> blocks.

Nice.

You can run the file system checker -- in INIT, to the "start timesharing" prompt, answer "refresh", then <ret> for the system disk, and when asked "Rebuild" say yes.  It should complete with no complaints.


> The output below is booting from the SCSI disk on a KDJ11-D 11/53.
> 
> 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1
> 
> Commands are Help, Boot, List, Map, Test and Wrap.
> Type a command then press the RETURN key: BOOT DU0
> 
> 
> DU0
> 
> RSTS V10.0-L RSTS   (DU0) INIT V10.0-0L
> 
> 
> Today's date? 19.5.27
> 
> Current time? 9:50
> 
> ...
> ;9.05.27 09:50

Hm, Y2K bug in that version?

> Proceed with system startup? <YES>
> 
> Beginning RSTS/E system startup...
> 19.05.27  09:50      Installing monitor overlays
> 19.05.27  09:50      Mounting disks
> 19.05.27  09:50      Assigning logical names
> 19.05.27  09:50      Starting error logging
> 19.05.27  09:50      Setting system characteristics
> 27-May-19 09:50 AM   Installing run-time systems and libraries
> 27-May-19 09:50 AM   Starting Operator/Message Services
> ?Invalid time
> ?Undefined symbol
> ?Undefined symbol

This says there's some stuff in your start.com that RSTS is not happy with, but it's not clear what that might be.  It doesn't seem to cause any real problems.

	paul


From vintagecomputersmn at gmail.com  Mon May 27 12:47:28 2019
From: vintagecomputersmn at gmail.com (Mister PDP)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 12:47:28 -0500
Subject: M7264 Troubleshooting
In-Reply-To: <20190526233549.0953318C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190526233549.0953318C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAHnoH6ykZ0m-gRpSGhoqK6-+FPPbt0LxfT=XkSUYVBif8x3ZCA@mail.gmail.com>

I took a look at all the lines you mentioned. BDAL3-13, BDIN, BSYNC, and
BBS7 are all active and jump around in some manner. BRPLY is still the only
line that does not have any activity on it. None of the BDAL lines seem
shorted to ground or to each other. My DLV11-J is configured to essentially
factory settings (J3 set as console, 8 bits no parity) except for the fact
that J3 is at 9.6k baud instead of 300, the address jumpers are exactly the
same as the one you provided.

On Sun, May 26, 2019 at 6:35 PM Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
wrote:

> Hey, I owe you replies to about a zillion emails; been busy, I'll
> try and get to them tomorrow. A few quick things:
>
>
>     > My M8043 (DLV11-J) just arrived today.
>
> Here are the jumpers on mine, which I just pulled from a working system,
> so you can compare and make sure you have them correct:
>
>  A5     L
>  A9     L
>  A12    C
>  A10    C
>  A11    C
>  A8     C
>  C2     C
>  C1     C
>
> Key:    L = jumper from left post to right (component side up, gold pads
>                 at bottom)
>         C = jumper from center post to right
>
>  A6     I
>  A7     R
>
> I = Insert, R = Remove
>
>  B-X-H  X-H
>
> I have left out the vectors jumpers, since ODT doesn't use interrupts, and
> the line config jumpers (their setting shouldn't have any effect on the
> ability of the board to respond to ODT).
>
>
>     > I have a hard time imagining that both my M8017 and my M8043 are
>     > bad, but it could still be possible.
>
> Well, I did mention that the CPU board could have a fault causing it to
> put out a bad address for the console; the other likely cause is that
> both consoles are bad. Not sure which is the most likely.
>
> The blunt hammer debugging technique is to look at the address being put
> out on the bus; you'll need to look at BDAL3-12 and BBS7 (sort of an AND
> of all the high address bits, so devices should work on Q16, Q18 and Q22;
> in fact, the manual says that device should look at BBS7, and hot BDA13
> and up). Best to use a 'scope so you can see what the waveforms look like.
> This is slow and painful, but will allow precise, definitive diagnosis.
>
> If the address is good, look also at BDIN. If that's toggling, it's the
> consoles. Otherwise, CPU issue,which we'll delve into once the data
> points definitively.
>
>         Noel
>

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Mon May 27 12:55:26 2019
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 10:55:26 -0700
Subject: 11/93 rebuild
In-Reply-To: <217DED6C-A04C-447A-9553-434B8C54CA3F@comcast.net>
References: <5eb7bd2f-396a-a812-42e8-57f7befbb0b7@btinternet.com>
 <CAM2UOw+LGBcf_uc1Becp2tU4+CZ12KadA6VjGgVrYT-br5z3Gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <217DED6C-A04C-447A-9553-434B8C54CA3F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwJ8JwZ137N0--Wcukb_L_UkXFdiHcEKjiHn4yz_Pe5mqw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 10:37 AM Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > RSTS V10.0-L RSTS   (DU0) INIT V10.0-0L
> >
> >
> > Today's date? 19.5.27
> >
> > Current time? 9:50
> >
> > ...
> > ;9.05.27 09:50
>
> Hm, Y2K bug in that version?
>

It was installed from the RSTS/E 10.0 tape image that recently
(2019-05-09) appeared on Bitsavers:

http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp11/rsts/RSTS_V10.ZIP

I have installed from a RSTS/E 10.1 tape image in the past and I seem
to remember it being more Y2K friendly. I used the Bitsavers 10.0 tape
image as an example here because the 10.1 tape image source that I
previously used was not public at the time to provide a link.

> > Proceed with system startup? <YES>
> >
> > Beginning RSTS/E system startup...
> > 19.05.27  09:50      Installing monitor overlays
> > 19.05.27  09:50      Mounting disks
> > 19.05.27  09:50      Assigning logical names
> > 19.05.27  09:50      Starting error logging
> > 19.05.27  09:50      Setting system characteristics
> > 27-May-19 09:50 AM   Installing run-time systems and libraries
> > 27-May-19 09:50 AM   Starting Operator/Message Services
> > ?Invalid time
> > ?Undefined symbol
> > ?Undefined symbol
>
> This says there's some stuff in your start.com that RSTS is not happy with, but it's not clear what that might be.  It doesn't seem to cause any real problems.
>

Yeah, those messages bug me slightly and I should try to figure out
what they mean. I don't remember seeing those when I used a 10.1
install. I just wanted to get this example out there for Rod now, and
worry about clean up issues later.

Thanks.

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Mon May 27 13:15:54 2019
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 11:15:54 -0700
Subject: 11/93 rebuild
In-Reply-To: <217DED6C-A04C-447A-9553-434B8C54CA3F@comcast.net>
References: <5eb7bd2f-396a-a812-42e8-57f7befbb0b7@btinternet.com>
 <CAM2UOw+LGBcf_uc1Becp2tU4+CZ12KadA6VjGgVrYT-br5z3Gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <217DED6C-A04C-447A-9553-434B8C54CA3F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwL4OgoLgJnnNb+wc5e0b-77Qngh0OBx3SaLuBjixuztiQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 10:37 AM Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > Proceed with system startup? <YES>
> >
> > Beginning RSTS/E system startup...
> > 19.05.27  09:50      Installing monitor overlays
> > 19.05.27  09:50      Mounting disks
> > 19.05.27  09:50      Assigning logical names
> > 19.05.27  09:50      Starting error logging
> > 19.05.27  09:50      Setting system characteristics
> > 27-May-19 09:50 AM   Installing run-time systems and libraries
> > 27-May-19 09:50 AM   Starting Operator/Message Services
> > ?Invalid time
> > ?Undefined symbol
> > ?Undefined symbol
>
> This says there's some stuff in your start.com that RSTS is not happy with, but it's not clear what that might be.  It doesn't seem to cause any real problems.
>

It appears that the first two errors are related to a Y2K issue.

The third error appears to be related to "OMS$:REQLOG.OMS". I barely
know my way around RSTS/E and don't know what that might be without
further investigation.

>From start.log:

$ !     *** Start Operator/Message Services ***
$ !
$ OMS_ON := FALSE
$ _write 0 f$time()+ "   Starting Operator/Message Services"
27-May-19 11:04 AM   Starting Operator/Message Services
$ Today = F$Left(F$CVTime(), 8)
$ Today = F$Left(F$CVTime(), 8)
?Invalid time
$ File = F$Left(Today, 2) + F$Mid(Today, 4, 2) + F$Right(Today, 7)
$ File = F$Left(Today, 2) + F$Mid(Today, 4, 2) + F$Right(Today, 7)
                ^
?Undefined symbol
$ _if F$Search("OMS$:REQLOG.OMS") .nes. "" Then -
Continue:       _Rename/NoWarn OMS$:REQLOG.OMS 'File'
$ _if F$Search("OMS$:REQLOG.OMS") .nes. "" Then         _Rename/NoWarn
OMS$:REQLOG.OMS 'File'

          ^
?Undefined symbol

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Mon May 27 13:26:05 2019
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 14:26:05 -0400
Subject: 11/93 rebuild
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwL4OgoLgJnnNb+wc5e0b-77Qngh0OBx3SaLuBjixuztiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5eb7bd2f-396a-a812-42e8-57f7befbb0b7@btinternet.com>
 <CAM2UOw+LGBcf_uc1Becp2tU4+CZ12KadA6VjGgVrYT-br5z3Gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <217DED6C-A04C-447A-9553-434B8C54CA3F@comcast.net>
 <CAM2UOwL4OgoLgJnnNb+wc5e0b-77Qngh0OBx3SaLuBjixuztiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <69D441CE-2C05-4D11-820C-7539060AD05B@comcast.net>



> On May 27, 2019, at 2:15 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 10:37 AM Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> Proceed with system startup? <YES>
>>> 
>>> Beginning RSTS/E system startup...
>>> 19.05.27  09:50      Installing monitor overlays
>>> 19.05.27  09:50      Mounting disks
>>> 19.05.27  09:50      Assigning logical names
>>> 19.05.27  09:50      Starting error logging
>>> 19.05.27  09:50      Setting system characteristics
>>> 27-May-19 09:50 AM   Installing run-time systems and libraries
>>> 27-May-19 09:50 AM   Starting Operator/Message Services
>>> ?Invalid time
>>> ?Undefined symbol
>>> ?Undefined symbol
>> 
>> This says there's some stuff in your start.com that RSTS is not happy with, but it's not clear what that might be.  It doesn't seem to cause any real problems.
>> 
> 
> It appears that the first two errors are related to a Y2K issue.
> 
> The third error appears to be related to "OMS$:REQLOG.OMS". I barely
> know my way around RSTS/E and don't know what that might be without
> further investigation.
> 
> From start.log:
> 
> $ !     *** Start Operator/Message Services ***
> $ !
> $ OMS_ON := FALSE
> $ _write 0 f$time()+ "   Starting Operator/Message Services"
> 27-May-19 11:04 AM   Starting Operator/Message Services
> $ Today = F$Left(F$CVTime(), 8)
> $ Today = F$Left(F$CVTime(), 8)
> ?Invalid time

Looks like f$cvtime is failing, that's presumably a Y2K issue.

> $ File = F$Left(Today, 2) + F$Mid(Today, 4, 2) + F$Right(Today, 7)
> $ File = F$Left(Today, 2) + F$Mid(Today, 4, 2) + F$Right(Today, 7)
>                ^
> ?Undefined symbol

"today" is undefined because the previous line was supposed to define it but failed.

> $ _if F$Search("OMS$:REQLOG.OMS") .nes. "" Then -
> Continue:       _Rename/NoWarn OMS$:REQLOG.OMS 'File'
> $ _if F$Search("OMS$:REQLOG.OMS") .nes. "" Then         _Rename/NoWarn
> OMS$:REQLOG.OMS 'File'
> 
>          ^
> ?Undefined symbol

"file" is undefined because the line that defined it got an error.

So it looks like an error cascade started with a Y2K bug.  You might try starting with a 20th century date like 1999, I'd expect it to be clean then.

	paul


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Mon May 27 13:37:33 2019
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 11:37:33 -0700
Subject: 11/93 rebuild
In-Reply-To: <69D441CE-2C05-4D11-820C-7539060AD05B@comcast.net>
References: <5eb7bd2f-396a-a812-42e8-57f7befbb0b7@btinternet.com>
 <CAM2UOw+LGBcf_uc1Becp2tU4+CZ12KadA6VjGgVrYT-br5z3Gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <217DED6C-A04C-447A-9553-434B8C54CA3F@comcast.net>
 <CAM2UOwL4OgoLgJnnNb+wc5e0b-77Qngh0OBx3SaLuBjixuztiQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <69D441CE-2C05-4D11-820C-7539060AD05B@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwJcDMYY4bLvVC_i3WQ2okxvMWmXK1S4=s1hAZGvZSx0Sg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 11:26 AM Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Looks like f$cvtime is failing, that's presumably a Y2K issue.
>
> > $ File = F$Left(Today, 2) + F$Mid(Today, 4, 2) + F$Right(Today, 7)
> > $ File = F$Left(Today, 2) + F$Mid(Today, 4, 2) + F$Right(Today, 7)
> >                ^
> > ?Undefined symbol
>
> "today" is undefined because the previous line was supposed to define it but failed.
>
> > $ _if F$Search("OMS$:REQLOG.OMS") .nes. "" Then -
> > Continue:       _Rename/NoWarn OMS$:REQLOG.OMS 'File'
> > $ _if F$Search("OMS$:REQLOG.OMS") .nes. "" Then         _Rename/NoWarn
> > OMS$:REQLOG.OMS 'File'
> >
> >          ^
> > ?Undefined symbol
>
> "file" is undefined because the line that defined it got an error.
>
> So it looks like an error cascade started with a Y2K bug.  You might try starting with a 20th century date like 1999, I'd expect it to be clean then.
>
>         paul
>

Changing the date to 1999 before startup did resolve the issues.


RSTS V10.0-L RSTS   (DU0) INIT V10.0-0L

;9.05.27 11:33

Start timesharing? <Yes> NO

Option: <Start> DATE

Today's date? <;9.05.27> 99.5.27

Current time? <11:34>

Option: <Start>

Disk is being rebuilt - wait ...

99.05.27 11:34
Proceed with system startup? <YES>

 Beginning RSTS/E system startup...
99.05.27  11:34      Installing monitor overlays
99.05.27  11:34      Mounting disks
99.05.27  11:34      Assigning logical names
99.05.27  11:34      Starting error logging
99.05.27  11:34      Setting system characteristics
27-May-99 11:34 AM   Installing run-time systems and libraries
27-May-99 11:34 AM   Starting Operator/Message Services

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  OMS V10.0-K  27-May-99 11:34 AM  <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message 1 from OMS, user [1,2], Detached, job 3
Starting Operator/Message Services
27-May-99 11:34 AM   Setting terminal characteristics
27-May-99 11:34 AM   Defining system commands
27-May-99 11:34 AM   Setting printer characteristics
27-May-99 11:34 AM   Starting spoolers

*** From [1,2] on KB0: at 11:34 AM 27-May-99
** RSTS/E is on the air...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  OMS V10.0-K  27-May-99 11:34 AM  <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message 2 from user [1,2] on _KB0:, job 2
The system startup is complete

From silent700 at gmail.com  Mon May 27 14:18:17 2019
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 14:18:17 -0500
Subject: Abandoned FACOM system in Italy?
In-Reply-To: <MN2PR20MB286160BFF279379CE9B13E87AB1D0@MN2PR20MB2861.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
References: <MN2PR20MB286160BFF279379CE9B13E87AB1D0@MN2PR20MB2861.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SEyDw8vp0J3UFZhOE1wRKPNeQ0SUDgTrW98ickRrzoAng@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 7:32 AM Evan Linwood via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> There doesn't seem to be mention of any recovery effort in the comments (that I could see).
> The most interesting section is from 14:14:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrx1tK5xcAk

Oof, 5:30 is a tragic sight for any IBM terminal fan.

From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com  Mon May 27 14:23:14 2019
From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 20:23:14 +0100
Subject: Abandoned FACOM system in Italy?
In-Reply-To: <CAEfH1SEyDw8vp0J3UFZhOE1wRKPNeQ0SUDgTrW98ickRrzoAng@mail.gmail.com>
References: <MN2PR20MB286160BFF279379CE9B13E87AB1D0@MN2PR20MB2861.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEfH1SEyDw8vp0J3UFZhOE1wRKPNeQ0SUDgTrW98ickRrzoAng@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <73A31402-4048-4F38-8CC6-791EB084C7E1@gmail.com>


> On 27 May 2019, at 20:18, Jason T via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 7:32 AM Evan Linwood via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> There doesn't seem to be mention of any recovery effort in the comments (that I could see).
>> The most interesting section is from 14:14:
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrx1tK5xcAk
> 
> Oof, 5:30 is a tragic sight for any IBM terminal fan.


Or just any fan of old kit, my heart absolutely sank watching that.

-- 
adrian/witchy
Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection?
t: @binarydinosaurs    f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs
w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk





From silent700 at gmail.com  Mon May 27 14:42:11 2019
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 14:42:11 -0500
Subject: Abandoned FACOM system in Italy?
In-Reply-To: <MN2PR20MB286160BFF279379CE9B13E87AB1D0@MN2PR20MB2861.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
References: <MN2PR20MB286160BFF279379CE9B13E87AB1D0@MN2PR20MB2861.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SH5uzUoJSD0w1trTNdc7AMV4bkDOT4-eXiLz8OvkzkGqw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 7:32 AM Evan Linwood via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> The most interesting section is from 14:14:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrx1tK5xcAk

I like how they stole all the raised floor tiles except those with
1000lbs of tape drive on them, making extraction of those drives extra
impossible.

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Mon May 27 17:06:50 2019
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 22:06:50 +0000
Subject: 11/93 Rebuild
In-Reply-To: <d9ad6702-56ab-b82e-feaa-5b04c691f4c3@btinternet.com>
References: <939e4a0a-5880-557c-62fd-546ae24ff750@btinternet.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905270923190.10712@linuxserv.home>
 <d9ad6702-56ab-b82e-feaa-5b04c691f4c3@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <BN3PR01MB2131422F7577E453E1F0436FED1D0@BN3PR01MB2131.prod.exchangelabs.com>

On 5/27/19 4:30 AM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote:
> Hi
> 
>  ? On an old XP box?? er neither will run
> 
> Rod
> 
> 
> On 27/05/2019 08:25, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:
>> # dd if=RD54.dsk of=/dev/sda? [or whatever the device name is]
>>
>> Oh, you said Windows... I'd recommend installing Cygwin ;-)
> 


Why would Cygwin not run?  I ran it on dozens of XP boxes.

bill

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Mon May 27 17:08:29 2019
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 22:08:29 +0000
Subject: 11/93 Rebuild
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905271054390.11506@linuxserv.home>
References: <939e4a0a-5880-557c-62fd-546ae24ff750@btinternet.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905270923190.10712@linuxserv.home>
 <d9ad6702-56ab-b82e-feaa-5b04c691f4c3@btinternet.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905271054390.11506@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <BN3PR01MB2131E2A1A2080D20E959191BED1D0@BN3PR01MB2131.prod.exchangelabs.com>

On 5/27/19 4:56 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:
> On Mon, 27 May 2019, Rod Smallwood wrote:
>> ? On an old XP box?? er neither will run
> 
> My reply was meant as a hint. You should be able to find a dd-like tool 
> for Windows yourself ;-) Either by using a old version of Cygwin (there 
> are instructions how to find them), by installing a stand-alone "dd" for 
> Windows, whatever.
> 
> Christian

Or build a disk with FreeDOS and Ersatz-11.  Disks today
are cheap.

bill


From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Mon May 27 17:15:22 2019
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 22:15:22 +0000
Subject: 11/93 rebuild
In-Reply-To: <5eb7bd2f-396a-a812-42e8-57f7befbb0b7@btinternet.com>
References: <5eb7bd2f-396a-a812-42e8-57f7befbb0b7@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <BN3PR01MB21314FC9228933872FF05DD1ED1D0@BN3PR01MB2131.prod.exchangelabs.com>

On 5/27/19 9:58 AM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote:
> Hi
> 
>  ??? Whilst I wait to hear from Glen Slick who has got me this far 
> (Thanks Glen) I'll restate the problem.
> 
> 1. I now have an old XP system with SIMH on it (PDP11.exe)
> 
> 2.? I have created RD54.dsk containing RSTS/E
> 
> 3. Attached to the system is a 2.1Gb SCSI drive via an adaptec 2940 
> controller
> 
> 4. I need a tried and tested list of step by step instructions to put 
> RD54.dsk on the SCSI drive.
> 
> 5. The drive will then be moved to a CQD-220A/TM SCSI controller on my 
> KDJ11-E based 11/93 and must boot.
> 
> 6. Its just an image copy from one drive to another on the same system.
> 
> 7. Nobody has come up with a tried and tested list of step by step 
> instructions yet.
> 
> 
> Rod Smallwood
> 
> 

Depends on what you mean by tried and tested.

I told you to use Ersatz-11 and buld the image directly
on the SCSI drive.  Ersatz-11 works fine under FreeDOS.
Disks are cheap so you just make a different disk for
your system.  I have used this method to make RT-11, RSTS/E
and BSD-211 systems disks that successfully boot and run
on my 11/93 with the CQD-220A/TM controller.

You could probably boot your image under Ersatz-11 and then
copy it to the SCSI but the  method above works just as well.

bill


From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Mon May 27 18:36:31 2019
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 18:36:31 -0500
Subject: Abandoned FACOM system in Italy?
In-Reply-To: <CAEfH1SH5uzUoJSD0w1trTNdc7AMV4bkDOT4-eXiLz8OvkzkGqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <MN2PR20MB286160BFF279379CE9B13E87AB1D0@MN2PR20MB2861.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAEfH1SH5uzUoJSD0w1trTNdc7AMV4bkDOT4-eXiLz8OvkzkGqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs217eDq8hve=oJ6WPSp_T0h1j7OqxxLOe4u2aRzfGmNahQ@mail.gmail.com>

gues just need to pop in that place in germany and take their tiles and
plop them in lol


On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 2:42 PM Jason T via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 7:32 AM Evan Linwood via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> > The most interesting section is from 14:14:
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrx1tK5xcAk
>
> I like how they stole all the raised floor tiles except those with
> 1000lbs of tape drive on them, making extraction of those drives extra
> impossible.
>

From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Mon May 27 18:44:26 2019
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 00:44:26 +0100
Subject: 11/93 rebuild - Project Suspended - PC died
Message-ID: <40278fef-2eb1-3c50-d530-1037f9a86739@btinternet.com>

The Acer PC I was using to write the image to the SCSI drive has gone kaput.

Clearly PSU (not plugtop? mains fuse).

Its a non standard PSU and no schematic available.

Fall back is to get one of the SLU's (other than the console) on the 
KDJ11-E going and TU58 it.


Rod


-- 



From steven at malikoff.com  Mon May 27 18:47:36 2019
From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 09:47:36 +1000
Subject: IBM lifting tool
In-Reply-To: <MN2PR20MB28617F06C7C7EC63A7F00DE2AB1D0@MN2PR20MB2861.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
References: <MN2PR20MB28617F06C7C7EC63A7F00DE2AB1D0@MN2PR20MB2861.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <944409e09559997a311a588c46879a3a.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>

Evan said
> While I'm on a roll, I saw this one randomly also - seems to have been a topic of interest to the list not long ago?
> It's a bit short & limited in terms of load but might suit someone
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-ES-3090-PROCESSOR-COMPLEX-SERVER-RACK-LIFT-TOOL-DOLLY-LOCAL-PICKUP-IN-CA/302740671139?hash=item467cc00aa3:g:idUAAOSw-YZa~D-D
> [https://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/302740671139-0-1/s-l1000.jpg]<https://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-ES-3090-PROCESSOR-COMPLEX-SERVER-RACK-LIFT-TOOL-DOLLY-LOCAL-PICKUP-IN-CA/302740671139?hash=item467cc00aa3:g:idUAAOSw-YZa~D-D>
> IBM ES/3090 PROCESSOR COMPLEX SERVER RACK LIFT TOOL DOLLY LOCAL PICKUP IN CA | eBay<https://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-ES-3090-PROCESSOR-COMPLEX-SERVER-RACK-LIFT-TOOL-DOLLY-LOCAL-PICKUP-IN-CA/302740671139?hash=item467cc00aa3:g:idUAAOSw-YZa~D-D>
> Used condition server rack lift dolly. Used to lift servers up and down for installation/ servicing of servers. Capable of lifting 200 pounds. In good working condition. LOCAL PICKUP ONLY IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA
> www.ebay.com

Wow..! that is a _really_ nice lifting dolly, looks like it folds up as well. You're right, we discussed these
types of units a while ago, and I bodged together my PDP-Lifter http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/pdp11/PDP-Lifter/
which I used last weekend to speedily lift a rather heavy Kennedy tape unit to the top of an H960 with barely any effort.
I looked for rack equipment lifting gear at the time but never saw anything like this. I'd say it was well worth it
for the personal safety improvement alone.

Steve




From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Mon May 27 19:06:04 2019
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 18:06:04 -0600
Subject: 11/93 Rebuild
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905271054390.11506@linuxserv.home>
References: <939e4a0a-5880-557c-62fd-546ae24ff750@btinternet.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905270923190.10712@linuxserv.home>
 <d9ad6702-56ab-b82e-feaa-5b04c691f4c3@btinternet.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905271054390.11506@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <8a5a4948-c497-a7ec-2a2b-474c2d8c498d@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 5/27/2019 2:56 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:
> On Mon, 27 May 2019, Rod Smallwood wrote:
>> ? On an old XP box?? er neither will run
> 
> My reply was meant as a hint. You should be able to find a dd-like tool 
> for Windows yourself ;-) Either by using a old version of Cygwin (there 
> are instructions how to find them), by installing a stand-alone "dd" for 
> Windows, whatever.
> 
> Christian
> 

http://www.chrysocome.net/dd
I like this one, used to copy disc images to sd cards.
Ben. Windows 7

From spectre at floodgap.com  Mon May 27 19:46:55 2019
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 17:46:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: HP/UX 8 and hosts vs DNS
In-Reply-To: <10089d32-f584-5df6-5f3d-a69bf9a35c0e@gmail.com> from Paul Berger
 via cctalk at "May 27, 19 01:33:28 pm"
Message-ID: <201905280046.x4S0ktd422544624@floodgap.com>

> > > HPUX 8 has smit, doesn't it ?
> >
> > Do you mean "sam"?
> >
> > I thought "smit(ty)" was AIX's counterpart to HP-UX's "sam".
>
> Yes SMIT is an AIX system management utility first introduced with AIX 
> for RS/6000 Ver 3, start with HPUX 10 HP did however include Logical 
> Volume Manager (LVM) which was also introduced in AIX 3.0

sam is in HP/UX 8 also. However, it doesn't seem to control this function.

I'll try /etc/nsswitch.conf anyway, since it won't hurt anything.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Success can eliminate as many options as failure. -- Tom Robbins -----------

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Mon May 27 20:06:52 2019
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 18:06:52 -0700
Subject: IBM lifting tool
In-Reply-To: <944409e09559997a311a588c46879a3a.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
References: <MN2PR20MB28617F06C7C7EC63A7F00DE2AB1D0@MN2PR20MB2861.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <944409e09559997a311a588c46879a3a.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwJNK2-FS0SFSE74Pe+POCXkeB_GXWEAdZ+DSd+nAH6N-Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 4:47 PM Steve Malikoff via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Evan said
> > While I'm on a roll, I saw this one randomly also - seems to have been a topic of interest to the list not long ago?
> > It's a bit short & limited in terms of load but might suit someone
> > https://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-ES-3090-PROCESSOR-COMPLEX-SERVER-RACK-LIFT-TOOL-DOLLY-LOCAL-PICKUP-IN-CA/302740671139?hash=item467cc00aa3:g:idUAAOSw-YZa~D-D
> > [https://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/302740671139-0-1/s-l1000.jpg]<https://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-ES-3090-PROCESSOR-COMPLEX-SERVER-RACK-LIFT-TOOL-DOLLY-LOCAL-PICKUP-IN-CA/302740671139?hash=item467cc00aa3:g:idUAAOSw-YZa~D-D>
> > IBM ES/3090 PROCESSOR COMPLEX SERVER RACK LIFT TOOL DOLLY LOCAL PICKUP IN CA | eBay<https://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-ES-3090-PROCESSOR-COMPLEX-SERVER-RACK-LIFT-TOOL-DOLLY-LOCAL-PICKUP-IN-CA/302740671139?hash=item467cc00aa3:g:idUAAOSw-YZa~D-D>
> > Used condition server rack lift dolly. Used to lift servers up and down for installation/ servicing of servers. Capable of lifting 200 pounds. In good working condition. LOCAL PICKUP ONLY IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA
> > www.ebay.com
>
> Wow..! that is a _really_ nice lifting dolly, looks like it folds up as well. You're right, we discussed these
> types of units a while ago, and I bodged together my PDP-Lifter http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/pdp11/PDP-Lifter/
> which I used last weekend to speedily lift a rather heavy Kennedy tape unit to the top of an H960 with barely any effort.
> I looked for rack equipment lifting gear at the time but never saw anything like this. I'd say it was well worth it
> for the personal safety improvement alone.
>
> Steve

In the 3rd photo of that listing the Genie logo is visible across the
top horizontal beam. Maybe this was a standard Genie product at the
time, or maybe custom made to IBM specifications.

Their closest current product looks like the Genie Load Lifter. Looks
like those go for around $1000 or more new.
https://www.genielift.com/en/material-handling-products/material-lifts

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Mon May 27 20:25:46 2019
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 18:25:46 -0700
Subject: 11/93 Rebuild
In-Reply-To: <8a5a4948-c497-a7ec-2a2b-474c2d8c498d@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <939e4a0a-5880-557c-62fd-546ae24ff750@btinternet.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905270923190.10712@linuxserv.home>
 <d9ad6702-56ab-b82e-feaa-5b04c691f4c3@btinternet.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905271054390.11506@linuxserv.home>
 <8a5a4948-c497-a7ec-2a2b-474c2d8c498d@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwJuPiqHAE2JntnQsqE56o+X6U87T7Mtc+yfYVqVN7CGRQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 5:06 PM ben via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> On 5/27/2019 2:56 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:
> > On Mon, 27 May 2019, Rod Smallwood wrote:
> >>   On an old XP box?  er neither will run
> >
> > My reply was meant as a hint. You should be able to find a dd-like tool
> > for Windows yourself ;-) Either by using a old version of Cygwin (there
> > are instructions how to find them), by installing a stand-alone "dd" for
> > Windows, whatever.
> >
> > Christian
> >
>
> http://www.chrysocome.net/dd
> I like this one, used to copy disc images to sd cards.
> Ben. Windows 7

I did download and use that chrysocome.net version of dd at some point.

Standalone utility without any crap to install.

You'd think that after 10 years they could finally have a 1.0 version
instead of a 0.6beta3  :)

From bobalan at sbcglobal.net  Mon May 27 22:40:07 2019
From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 20:40:07 -0700
Subject: looking for an old IBM knob from a 609 calculator panel
Message-ID: <e684be3e-5cc9-46d4-c89e-9779406c2fcd@sbcglobal.net>

A long shot I know, but I'm looking for an IBM knob that's missing from 
a 609 calculator panel I have.
Photos can be seen here:

http://dvq.com/ibm/ibm-609-pnl1.JPG
http://dvq.com/ibm/ibm-609-pnl4.JPG
http://dvq.com/ibm/ibm-609-pnl5.JPG

I have no idea if the knob was made by IBM or was a common knob of the 
times.

Thanks,

Bob

-- 
Vintage computers and electronics
www.dvq.com
www.tekmuseum.com
www.decmuseum.org


From shadoooo at gmail.com  Mon May 27 18:14:06 2019
From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 01:14:06 +0200
Subject: Abandoned FACOM system in Italy?
In-Reply-To: <CAM4zSsWyaPa+yh=+0ukTcD_VM870Qvpb7FkCAPU8-53WAV5qtQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM4zSsWyaPa+yh=+0ukTcD_VM870Qvpb7FkCAPU8-53WAV5qtQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM4zSsWKLfcOUqaiLPOMdo8eyu9qKO79cadDsWGaVdvEyOfvWg@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,
do you know the people who made the video?
I think the factory is the Satilai in Saronno.

Andrea

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Mon May 27 19:53:09 2019
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 17:53:09 -0700
Subject: Abandoned FACOM system in Italy?
In-Reply-To: <CAM4zSsWKLfcOUqaiLPOMdo8eyu9qKO79cadDsWGaVdvEyOfvWg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM4zSsWyaPa+yh=+0ukTcD_VM870Qvpb7FkCAPU8-53WAV5qtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsWKLfcOUqaiLPOMdo8eyu9qKO79cadDsWGaVdvEyOfvWg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOw+0MfNBUW1QvNkNcd8m4Rxj89astQWS8F2Czps+Hf3e9Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 4:14 PM shadoooo via cctech
<cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Hello,
> do you know the people who made the video?
> I think the factory is the Satilai in Saronno.
>
> Andrea

I believe those guys are based somewhere in the US. Sometime in the
last few months they made a trip exploring several places in Europe.
They usually do not provide in their videos the exact identity or
location of the places they visit, although a lot of their viewers can
figure it out with a bit of research.

http://theproperpeople.com/about/
https://www.youtube.com/user/TheProperPeople/videos

I have seen some interesting old computer gear briefly appear in a few
of their other videos. Not something they stop to focus on, as most of
the people on this list would.

From stefan.skoglund at agj.net  Tue May 28 02:35:15 2019
From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 09:35:15 +0200
Subject: M7264 Troubleshooting
In-Reply-To: <CAHnoH6ykZ0m-gRpSGhoqK6-+FPPbt0LxfT=XkSUYVBif8x3ZCA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190526233549.0953318C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAHnoH6ykZ0m-gRpSGhoqK6-+FPPbt0LxfT=XkSUYVBif8x3ZCA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e06d16022821fff3a1044babdd94596478383b69.camel@agj.net>

m?n 2019-05-27 klockan 12:47 -0500 skrev Mister PDP via cctalk:
> I took a look at all the lines you mentioned. BDAL3-13, BDIN, BSYNC,
> and
> BBS7 are all active and jump around in some manner. BRPLY is still
> the only
> line that does not have any activity on it. None of the BDAL lines
> seem
> shorted to ground or to each other. My DLV11-J is configured to
> essentially
> factory settings (J3 set as console, 8 bits no parity) except for the
> fact
> that J3 is at 9.6k baud instead of 300, the address jumpers are
> exactly the
> same as the one you provided.
> 

Someone had a bit of trouble (whom ?) with things. Erratic behaviour
in device addressing.

He found that (i believe) that 8 switches in  dip jumper was broken.




From bhilpert at shaw.ca  Tue May 28 02:55:33 2019
From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 00:55:33 -0700
Subject: Abandoned FACOM system in Italy?
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOw+0MfNBUW1QvNkNcd8m4Rxj89astQWS8F2Czps+Hf3e9Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM4zSsWyaPa+yh=+0ukTcD_VM870Qvpb7FkCAPU8-53WAV5qtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsWKLfcOUqaiLPOMdo8eyu9qKO79cadDsWGaVdvEyOfvWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOw+0MfNBUW1QvNkNcd8m4Rxj89astQWS8F2Czps+Hf3e9Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2DCB9CD1-EDE8-4FB8-8527-830FA45116EF@shaw.ca>

On 2019-May-27, at 5:53 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote:
> On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 4:14 PM shadoooo via cctech
> <cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Hello,
>> do you know the people who made the video?
>> I think the factory is the Satilai in Saronno.
>> 
>> Andrea
> 
> I believe those guys are based somewhere in the US. Sometime in the
> last few months they made a trip exploring several places in Europe.
> They usually do not provide in their videos the exact identity or
> location of the places they visit, although a lot of their viewers can
> figure it out with a bit of research.
> 
> http://theproperpeople.com/about/
> https://www.youtube.com/user/TheProperPeople/videos
> 
> I have seen some interesting old computer gear briefly appear in a few
> of their other videos. Not something they stop to focus on, as most of
> the people on this list would.

With shadoooooooo's hint of Saronno, it's not difficult to spot:
	https://www.google.com/maps/place/21047+Saronno,+VA,+Italy/@45.6308352,9.0453149,399m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x47869159b2e042bd:0xb507c6b15c96294f!8m2!3d45.6242491!4d9.0359607



From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Tue May 28 03:29:43 2019
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 09:29:43 +0100
Subject: 11/93 Rebuild - Project resumed - PSU replaced
Message-ID: <e30ddb4a-c337-cec8-4821-010ba847bea3@btinternet.com>

11/93 Rebuild - Project resumed - PSU replaced


Rod


-- 



From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Tue May 28 08:42:27 2019
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 09:42:27 -0400
Subject: looking for an old IBM knob from a 609 calculator panel
In-Reply-To: <e684be3e-5cc9-46d4-c89e-9779406c2fcd@sbcglobal.net>
References: <e684be3e-5cc9-46d4-c89e-9779406c2fcd@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <CANij+dcKaD76WbL9RFyjrORL=FUGDKUgwfEnn8dJCoE7rNun_g@mail.gmail.com>

I think that is an IBM specific knob. I will keep an eye out for one,
but do not hold your breath! It is certainly not a common knob.

Is it for a 1/4 inch shaft?

--
Will

On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 11:41 PM Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> A long shot I know, but I'm looking for an IBM knob that's missing from
> a 609 calculator panel I have.
> Photos can be seen here:
>
> http://dvq.com/ibm/ibm-609-pnl1.JPG
> http://dvq.com/ibm/ibm-609-pnl4.JPG
> http://dvq.com/ibm/ibm-609-pnl5.JPG
>
> I have no idea if the knob was made by IBM or was a common knob of the
> times.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bob
>
> --
> Vintage computers and electronics
> www.dvq.com
> www.tekmuseum.com
> www.decmuseum.org
>

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Tue May 28 09:45:22 2019
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 14:45:22 +0000
Subject: looking for an old IBM knob from a 609 calculator panel
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dcKaD76WbL9RFyjrORL=FUGDKUgwfEnn8dJCoE7rNun_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e684be3e-5cc9-46d4-c89e-9779406c2fcd@sbcglobal.net>,
 <CANij+dcKaD76WbL9RFyjrORL=FUGDKUgwfEnn8dJCoE7rNun_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BYAPR01MB56087D3D3D66A39142D950FBA31E0@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>

I've never seen one exactly like that before either. You might want to make a mold and create one that way.
Dwight

________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of William Donzelli via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2019 6:42 AM
To: Bob Rosenbloom; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: looking for an old IBM knob from a 609 calculator panel

I think that is an IBM specific knob. I will keep an eye out for one,
but do not hold your breath! It is certainly not a common knob.

Is it for a 1/4 inch shaft?

--
Will

On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 11:41 PM Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> A long shot I know, but I'm looking for an IBM knob that's missing from
> a 609 calculator panel I have.
> Photos can be seen here:
>
> http://dvq.com/ibm/ibm-609-pnl1.JPG
> http://dvq.com/ibm/ibm-609-pnl4.JPG
> http://dvq.com/ibm/ibm-609-pnl5.JPG
>
> I have no idea if the knob was made by IBM or was a common knob of the
> times.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bob
>
> --
> Vintage computers and electronics
> www.dvq.com<http://www.dvq.com>
> www.tekmuseum.com<http://www.tekmuseum.com>
> www.decmuseum.org<http://www.decmuseum.org>
>

From bobalan at sbcglobal.net  Tue May 28 10:57:13 2019
From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 08:57:13 -0700
Subject: looking for an old IBM knob from a 609 calculator panel
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dcKaD76WbL9RFyjrORL=FUGDKUgwfEnn8dJCoE7rNun_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e684be3e-5cc9-46d4-c89e-9779406c2fcd@sbcglobal.net>
 <CANij+dcKaD76WbL9RFyjrORL=FUGDKUgwfEnn8dJCoE7rNun_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <03a2b351-de49-5f0a-e227-9881b9392f10@sbcglobal.net>

On 5/28/2019 6:42 AM, William Donzelli wrote:
> I think that is an IBM specific knob. I will keep an eye out for one,
> but do not hold your breath! It is certainly not a common knob.
>
> Is it for a 1/4 inch shaft?
>
> --
> Will
Yes, it's a standard 1/4" shaft. Might try and get one 3D printed if I 
can figure out how to draw it.

Bob

> On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 11:41 PM Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> A long shot I know, but I'm looking for an IBM knob that's missing from
>> a 609 calculator panel I have.
>> Photos can be seen here:
>>
>> http://dvq.com/ibm/ibm-609-pnl1.JPG
>> http://dvq.com/ibm/ibm-609-pnl4.JPG
>> http://dvq.com/ibm/ibm-609-pnl5.JPG
>>
>> I have no idea if the knob was made by IBM or was a common knob of the
>> times.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> --
>> Vintage computers and electronics
>> www.dvq.com
>> www.tekmuseum.com
>> www.decmuseum.org
>>


-- 
Vintage computers and electronics
www.dvq.com
www.tekmuseum.com
www.decmuseum.org


From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Tue May 28 11:45:08 2019
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 16:45:08 +0000
Subject: looking for an old IBM knob from a 609 calculator panel
In-Reply-To: <03a2b351-de49-5f0a-e227-9881b9392f10@sbcglobal.net>
References: <e684be3e-5cc9-46d4-c89e-9779406c2fcd@sbcglobal.net>
 <CANij+dcKaD76WbL9RFyjrORL=FUGDKUgwfEnn8dJCoE7rNun_g@mail.gmail.com>,
 <03a2b351-de49-5f0a-e227-9881b9392f10@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <BYAPR01MB5608C97504D680A23BBAB703A31E0@BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>

Hi Bob
 Even with 3d printing, you'd need to do some  sanding and shaping to make it look as clean as the original. I still think casing one is the best option. If the mold is right, it will even match the surface.
Dwight

________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2019 8:57 AM
To: William Donzelli; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: looking for an old IBM knob from a 609 calculator panel

On 5/28/2019 6:42 AM, William Donzelli wrote:
> I think that is an IBM specific knob. I will keep an eye out for one,
> but do not hold your breath! It is certainly not a common knob.
>
> Is it for a 1/4 inch shaft?
>
> --
> Will
Yes, it's a standard 1/4" shaft. Might try and get one 3D printed if I
can figure out how to draw it.

Bob

> On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 11:41 PM Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> A long shot I know, but I'm looking for an IBM knob that's missing from
>> a 609 calculator panel I have.
>> Photos can be seen here:
>>
>> http://dvq.com/ibm/ibm-609-pnl1.JPG
>> http://dvq.com/ibm/ibm-609-pnl4.JPG
>> http://dvq.com/ibm/ibm-609-pnl5.JPG
>>
>> I have no idea if the knob was made by IBM or was a common knob of the
>> times.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> --
>> Vintage computers and electronics
>> www.dvq.com<http://www.dvq.com>
>> www.tekmuseum.com<http://www.tekmuseum.com>
>> www.decmuseum.org<http://www.decmuseum.org>
>>


--
Vintage computers and electronics
www.dvq.com<http://www.dvq.com>
www.tekmuseum.com<http://www.tekmuseum.com>
www.decmuseum.org<http://www.decmuseum.org>


From sales at elecplus.com  Tue May 28 12:27:22 2019
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 12:27:22 -0500
Subject: looking for an old IBM knob from a 609 calculator panel
In-Reply-To: <03a2b351-de49-5f0a-e227-9881b9392f10@sbcglobal.net>
References: <e684be3e-5cc9-46d4-c89e-9779406c2fcd@sbcglobal.net>
 <CANij+dcKaD76WbL9RFyjrORL=FUGDKUgwfEnn8dJCoE7rNun_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <03a2b351-de49-5f0a-e227-9881b9392f10@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <029501d5157a$9c78bf10$d56a3d30$@com>

Looks like a standard old Bakelite type knob to me. I pulled a lot from old equipment 30 years ago. I will check to see if any got salvaged.

Cindy

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2019 10:57 AM
To: William Donzelli; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: looking for an old IBM knob from a 609 calculator panel

On 5/28/2019 6:42 AM, William Donzelli wrote:
> I think that is an IBM specific knob. I will keep an eye out for one,
> but do not hold your breath! It is certainly not a common knob.
>
> Is it for a 1/4 inch shaft?
>
> --
> Will
Yes, it's a standard 1/4" shaft. Might try and get one 3D printed if I 
can figure out how to draw it.

Bob

> On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 11:41 PM Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> A long shot I know, but I'm looking for an IBM knob that's missing from
>> a 609 calculator panel I have.
>> Photos can be seen here:
>>
>> http://dvq.com/ibm/ibm-609-pnl1.JPG
>> http://dvq.com/ibm/ibm-609-pnl4.JPG
>> http://dvq.com/ibm/ibm-609-pnl5.JPG
>>
>> I have no idea if the knob was made by IBM or was a common knob of the
>> times.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> --
>> Vintage computers and electronics
>> www.dvq.com
>> www.tekmuseum.com
>> www.decmuseum.org
>>


-- 
Vintage computers and electronics
www.dvq.com
www.tekmuseum.com
www.decmuseum.org


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Tue May 28 12:35:49 2019
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 13:35:49 -0400
Subject: looking for an old IBM knob from a 609 calculator panel
In-Reply-To: <029501d5157a$9c78bf10$d56a3d30$@com>
References: <e684be3e-5cc9-46d4-c89e-9779406c2fcd@sbcglobal.net>
 <CANij+dcKaD76WbL9RFyjrORL=FUGDKUgwfEnn8dJCoE7rNun_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <03a2b351-de49-5f0a-e227-9881b9392f10@sbcglobal.net>
 <029501d5157a$9c78bf10$d56a3d30$@com>
Message-ID: <CANij+dfu-Mc67ftzP=aTxCYgstwYSyKDrAi56wc0BPUZB6KHUg@mail.gmail.com>

Those knobs look like they are cast pop metal or zinc or something,
not Bakelite.

--
Will

On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 1:27 PM Electronics Plus via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Looks like a standard old Bakelite type knob to me. I pulled a lot from old equipment 30 years ago. I will check to see if any got salvaged.
>
> Cindy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk
> Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2019 10:57 AM
> To: William Donzelli; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: looking for an old IBM knob from a 609 calculator panel
>
> On 5/28/2019 6:42 AM, William Donzelli wrote:
> > I think that is an IBM specific knob. I will keep an eye out for one,
> > but do not hold your breath! It is certainly not a common knob.
> >
> > Is it for a 1/4 inch shaft?
> >
> > --
> > Will
> Yes, it's a standard 1/4" shaft. Might try and get one 3D printed if I
> can figure out how to draw it.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 11:41 PM Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk
> > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >> A long shot I know, but I'm looking for an IBM knob that's missing from
> >> a 609 calculator panel I have.
> >> Photos can be seen here:
> >>
> >> http://dvq.com/ibm/ibm-609-pnl1.JPG
> >> http://dvq.com/ibm/ibm-609-pnl4.JPG
> >> http://dvq.com/ibm/ibm-609-pnl5.JPG
> >>
> >> I have no idea if the knob was made by IBM or was a common knob of the
> >> times.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >> --
> >> Vintage computers and electronics
> >> www.dvq.com
> >> www.tekmuseum.com
> >> www.decmuseum.org
> >>
>
>
> --
> Vintage computers and electronics
> www.dvq.com
> www.tekmuseum.com
> www.decmuseum.org
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>

From bobalan at sbcglobal.net  Tue May 28 12:55:26 2019
From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 17:55:26 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: looking for an old IBM knob from a 609 calculator panel
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dfu-Mc67ftzP=aTxCYgstwYSyKDrAi56wc0BPUZB6KHUg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e684be3e-5cc9-46d4-c89e-9779406c2fcd@sbcglobal.net>
 <CANij+dcKaD76WbL9RFyjrORL=FUGDKUgwfEnn8dJCoE7rNun_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <03a2b351-de49-5f0a-e227-9881b9392f10@sbcglobal.net>
 <029501d5157a$9c78bf10$d56a3d30$@com>
 <CANij+dfu-Mc67ftzP=aTxCYgstwYSyKDrAi56wc0BPUZB6KHUg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1545569576.626015.1559066126153@mail.yahoo.com>

 

    On Tuesday, May 28, 2019, 10:36:10 AM PDT, William Donzelli via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:  
 
 Those knobs look like they are cast pop metal or zinc or something,
not Bakelite.

--
Will
They are metal for sure. Probably cast. They are smooth, though there's a bit of corrosion and pitting on them now.There's a set screw at the bottom of the back side.?
Dwight suggest casting one. I've never done casting before but this might be a good thing to try it on.Would have to drill the shaft and set screw holes afterwards, and a bit of finish work to make them smooth.It's a cool panel so probably worth the effort if I can't find one out there somewhere...
Bob

On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 1:27 PM Electronics Plus via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Looks like a standard old Bakelite type knob to me. I pulled a lot from old equipment 30 years ago. I will check to see if any got salvaged.
>
> Cindy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk
> Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2019 10:57 AM
> To: William Donzelli; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: looking for an old IBM knob from a 609 calculator panel
>
> On 5/28/2019 6:42 AM, William Donzelli wrote:
> > I think that is an IBM specific knob. I will keep an eye out for one,
> > but do not hold your breath! It is certainly not a common knob.
> >
> > Is it for a 1/4 inch shaft?
> >
> > --
> > Will
> Yes, it's a standard 1/4" shaft. Might try and get one 3D printed if I
> can figure out how to draw it.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 11:41 PM Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk
> > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >> A long shot I know, but I'm looking for an IBM knob that's missing from
> >> a 609 calculator panel I have.
> >> Photos can be seen here:
> >>
> >> http://dvq.com/ibm/ibm-609-pnl1.JPG
> >> http://dvq.com/ibm/ibm-609-pnl4.JPG
> >> http://dvq.com/ibm/ibm-609-pnl5.JPG
> >>
> >> I have no idea if the knob was made by IBM or was a common knob of the
> >> times.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >> --
> >> Vintage computers and electronics
> >> www.dvq.com
> >> www.tekmuseum.com
> >> www.decmuseum.org
> >>
>
>
> --
> Vintage computers and electronics
> www.dvq.com
> www.tekmuseum.com
> www.decmuseum.org
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
  

From imp at bsdimp.com  Tue May 28 15:14:42 2019
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 14:14:42 -0600
Subject: Modern BLISS compiler
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFckWNcVmOQ1Jjx7dHSvrre1X0Xw+tJsu44C2Nze0YiyA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCFckWNcVmOQ1Jjx7dHSvrre1X0Xw+tJsu44C2Nze0YiyA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfpHT=fyS7fdUArZgqt=Jc-jBnk6XdxiWz64bH7ztOgtCw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 3:55 AM Liam Proven via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> This just came up on Fess Bouc. I did not know that it existed.
>
> It's an LLVM-backed modern compiler for BLISS.
>
> https://madisongh.github.io/blissc/


This is based on a several year old llvm. Is there anything newer? Have
people tried it with newer versions of llvm?

Warner

From couryhouse at aol.com  Tue May 28 16:24:49 2019
From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 21:24:49 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?trying_to_ID_early_core_stacks_from_GE_200_series_(_like_for_d?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?artmouth_basic_machine)_or_or_ERMA._any_old_times_have_close_up?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?_docs_or_part_numbers=3F_I_may_ha?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?ve_found_the_lost_treasure...we?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?=C2=A0_have_a=C2=A0_=C2=A02_each_21_inch=C2=A0_or=C2=A0_?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?=C2=A0so=C2=A0_wide=C2=A0_thing=C2=A0_=C2=A0with_2=C2=A0_monst?=
References: <1149526381.5117811.1559078689938.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1149526381.5117811.1559078689938@mail.yahoo.com>


trying to ID early core stacks from GE 200 series ( like for dartmouth basic machine) or or ERMA. any old times have close up docs or part numbers? I may have found the lost treasure...

we? have a? ?2 each 21 inch? or? ?so? wide? thing? ?with 2? monster ass? stacks? mounted in each one..
one is? intact? and? dirty? but? ? ?intact!

?the other? ?stacks? and? weird other things mounted to metal? frame? work are there? but? ? ?some? stiff is? just? hanging? off it
unit? ?2? might? be? subdivided? and shared .? ? I? have never seen? GE? core? that? was? this? large......

Metal? ?frame? has? log? ?GE? part? number? ? each? stack? has? ?one? ?too
the? game is? afoot!
if? not? solved? rather? ?quickly? they? return to the? warehouse.
thanks? ed sharpe? archivist? for smecc

From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Tue May 28 16:29:35 2019
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 17:29:35 -0400
Subject: looking for an old IBM knob from a 609 calculator panel
References: <e684be3e-5cc9-46d4-c89e-9779406c2fcd@sbcglobal.net>
 <CANij+dcKaD76WbL9RFyjrORL=FUGDKUgwfEnn8dJCoE7rNun_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <03a2b351-de49-5f0a-e227-9881b9392f10@sbcglobal.net>
 <029501d5157a$9c78bf10$d56a3d30$@com>
 <CANij+dfu-Mc67ftzP=aTxCYgstwYSyKDrAi56wc0BPUZB6KHUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1545569576.626015.1559066126153@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <58A88EBC76F74F62A28F6C31D9B53B7A@310e2>

They look like something off an old stove ;-)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
To: "Electronics Plus" <sales at elecplus.com>; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>; "William Donzelli" <wdonzelli at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2019 1:55 PM
Subject: Re: looking for an old IBM knob from a 609 calculator panel




    On Tuesday, May 28, 2019, 10:36:10 AM PDT, William Donzelli via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:  
 
 Those knobs look like they are cast pop metal or zinc or something,
not Bakelite.

--
Will
They are metal for sure. Probably cast. They are smooth, though there's a bit of corrosion and pitting on them now.There's a set screw at the bottom of the back side. 
Dwight suggest casting one. I've never done casting before but this might be a good thing to try it on.Would have to drill the shaft and set screw holes afterwards, and a bit of finish work to make them smooth.It's a cool panel so probably worth the effort if I can't find one out there somewhere...
Bob

On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 1:27 PM Electronics Plus via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Looks like a standard old Bakelite type knob to me. I pulled a lot from old equipment 30 years ago. I will check to see if any got salvaged.
>
> Cindy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk
> Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2019 10:57 AM
> To: William Donzelli; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: looking for an old IBM knob from a 609 calculator panel
>
> On 5/28/2019 6:42 AM, William Donzelli wrote:
> > I think that is an IBM specific knob. I will keep an eye out for one,
> > but do not hold your breath! It is certainly not a common knob.
> >
> > Is it for a 1/4 inch shaft?
> >
> > --
> > Will
> Yes, it's a standard 1/4" shaft. Might try and get one 3D printed if I
> can figure out how to draw it.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 11:41 PM Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk
> > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >> A long shot I know, but I'm looking for an IBM knob that's missing from
> >> a 609 calculator panel I have.
> >> Photos can be seen here:
> >>
> >> http://dvq.com/ibm/ibm-609-pnl1.JPG
> >> http://dvq.com/ibm/ibm-609-pnl4.JPG
> >> http://dvq.com/ibm/ibm-609-pnl5.JPG
> >>
> >> I have no idea if the knob was made by IBM or was a common knob of the
> >> times.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >> --
> >> Vintage computers and electronics
> >> www.dvq.com
> >> www.tekmuseum.com
> >> www.decmuseum.org
> >>
>
>
> --
> Vintage computers and electronics
> www.dvq.com
> www.tekmuseum.com
> www.decmuseum.org
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>


From steven at malikoff.com  Tue May 28 17:06:24 2019
From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com)
Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 08:06:24 +1000
Subject: looking for an old IBM knob from a 609 calculator panel
In-Reply-To: <1545569576.626015.1559066126153@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <e684be3e-5cc9-46d4-c89e-9779406c2fcd@sbcglobal.net>
 <CANij+dcKaD76WbL9RFyjrORL=FUGDKUgwfEnn8dJCoE7rNun_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <03a2b351-de49-5f0a-e227-9881b9392f10@sbcglobal.net>
 <029501d5157a$9c78bf10$d56a3d30$@com>
 <CANij+dfu-Mc67ftzP=aTxCYgstwYSyKDrAi56wc0BPUZB6KHUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1545569576.626015.1559066126153@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <362bebea91d677cacdfc60319ffbd31c.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>


>     On Tuesday, May 28, 2019, 10:36:10 AM PDT, William Donzelli via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>  Those knobs look like they are cast pop metal or zinc or something,
> not Bakelite.
>
> --
> Will
> They are metal for sure. Probably cast. They are smooth, though there's a bit of corrosion and pitting on them now.There's a set screw at the bottom of the back side.?
> Dwight suggest casting one. I've never done casting before but this might be a good thing to try it on.Would have to drill the shaft and set screw holes afterwards, and a bit of finish work to make them smooth.It's a cool panel so probably worth the effort if I can't find one out there
somewhere...> Bob

I agree casting might be for you the easiest way to go, then spray it. It's an unusual shape
but a good enough copy for 3D printing could be done in OpenSCAD from a few caliper measurements:
disk dia, disk rim height, overall height, dip angle, top paddle width, bottom paddle width,
top indent length/width/depth and paddle front radius ought to be enough.

Steve.




From cclist at sydex.com  Tue May 28 17:35:01 2019
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 15:35:01 -0700
Subject: looking for an old IBM knob from a 609 calculator panel
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dfu-Mc67ftzP=aTxCYgstwYSyKDrAi56wc0BPUZB6KHUg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e684be3e-5cc9-46d4-c89e-9779406c2fcd@sbcglobal.net>
 <CANij+dcKaD76WbL9RFyjrORL=FUGDKUgwfEnn8dJCoE7rNun_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <03a2b351-de49-5f0a-e227-9881b9392f10@sbcglobal.net>
 <029501d5157a$9c78bf10$d56a3d30$@com>
 <CANij+dfu-Mc67ftzP=aTxCYgstwYSyKDrAi56wc0BPUZB6KHUg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a5d146ce-75f9-eacd-ccdb-fd2088e8ba7a@sydex.com>

On 5/28/19 10:35 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:
> Those knobs look like they are cast pop metal or zinc or something,
> not Bakelite.

What flavor pop?  ("pot" metal or monkey metal).

--Chuck


From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Tue May 28 17:37:25 2019
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 18:37:25 -0400
Subject: looking for an old IBM knob from a 609 calculator panel
In-Reply-To: <a5d146ce-75f9-eacd-ccdb-fd2088e8ba7a@sydex.com>
References: <e684be3e-5cc9-46d4-c89e-9779406c2fcd@sbcglobal.net>
 <CANij+dcKaD76WbL9RFyjrORL=FUGDKUgwfEnn8dJCoE7rNun_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <03a2b351-de49-5f0a-e227-9881b9392f10@sbcglobal.net>
 <029501d5157a$9c78bf10$d56a3d30$@com>
 <CANij+dfu-Mc67ftzP=aTxCYgstwYSyKDrAi56wc0BPUZB6KHUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <a5d146ce-75f9-eacd-ccdb-fd2088e8ba7a@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+ddSKKic+gs-nGY_1Voh4iKdkRCdhe5jmQmer2=CO_gPiA@mail.gmail.com>

Umm...yes, I know.

--
Will

On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 6:35 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> On 5/28/19 10:35 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:
> > Those knobs look like they are cast pop metal or zinc or something,
> > not Bakelite.
>
> What flavor pop?  ("pot" metal or monkey metal).
>
> --Chuck
>

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue May 28 20:23:08 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 21:23:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: M7264 Troubleshooting
Message-ID: <20190529012308.96D8018C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

Hi, sorry about the delayed reply; been dealing with this:

  http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/jpg/backoak/WholeTreeS.jpg

The cranes arrive tomorrow...


    > I took a look at all the lines you mentioned. BDAL3-13, BDIN, BSYNC, and
    > BBS7 are all active and jump around in some manner.

Hmm. Well, that shoots down the simplest theory; that a CPU BDAL (or perhaps
BDIN) driver (technically, a transceiver) chip is bad; if you're seeing any
activity at all on a line, the driver must be working. So, either both console
cards have an issue, or something more complex is going on.

Here are some pictures to show you what you should be seeing, and what I'm
seeing with an LSI-11 with no console card. First, normal operation:

  http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/jpg/BSYN-BDAL_OK.jpg

The top trace is BSYNC, the bottom BDAL10 (which should be asserted for
0177560, the console CSR's address; it's the 02000 bit). The timebase on this
one is 1 usec per division. As you can see, it's in a tight loop reading that
register.

The QBUS spec shows that for a DATI cycle, the DAL lines are set up before
BSYNC is asserted (falling edge here, since the bus lines are inverted).
BDA10 is indeed asserted (low) when that happens; shortly after it goes back
to 0 (high) so that device can put its data out on those lines. It stays high,
so that bit in the CSR must be 0.

OK, now a picture of the bus with no console card:

  http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/jpg/BSYN-BDAL_NoCon.jpg

It's a bit hard to interpret what's going on here (note that the timebase is
much larger - 5 usec). The long assertion of BSYNC is undoubtly the CPU trying
to get the console CSR to respond, and eventually timing out.  Not sure what
the short assertion following it is - without looking at the ucode for the
ODT, there's no way to know what the CPU's doing.

Even harder to understand is what the BDAL line is doing. It looks like it's
un-asserted (0, i.e. +3V) on the falling (electrically - rising, logically)
edge of BSYN (which would be incorrect - see above). And then it hops around
while BSYNC is asserted, which makes no sense at all to me.


At this point, my best guess at the most likely cause of your problem (given
the 'all the lines are doing stuff') is that both console cards have
issues. Tomorrow, when I'm not outside, I'll try and look at some other BDAL
lines and see if they are doing the same thing with no console card in.

      Noel

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue May 28 20:39:20 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 21:39:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: 11/93 rebuild
Message-ID: <20190529013920.F0F3E18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Holm Tiffe

    > You have to have an already existing parition structure on the disk and
    > an OS that knows what todo with that.

The "--list" command to 'dd' gives a whole bunch of stuff:

  Win32 Available Volume Information
  \\.\Volume{cd4ae459-0daa-11e2-9625-806d6172696f}\
    link to \\?\Device\HarddiskVolume1
    fixed media
    Mounted on \\.\d:

  \\.\Volume{f3c65dd6-01af-11e1-a511-806d6172696f}\
    link to \\?\Device\HarddiskVolume2
    fixed media
    Mounted on \\.\c:

  \\.\Volume{f3c65dd7-01af-11e1-a511-806d6172696f}\
    link to \\?\Device\CdRom0
    CD-ROM
    Mounted on \\.\m:

  \\.\Volume{a531c21e-b869-11d9-9977-806d6172696f}\
    link to \\?\Device\Floppy0
    removeable media
    Mounted on \\.\a:

  \\.\Volume{89bdc974-217e-11e8-96f6-00038a000015}\
    link to \\?\Device\Harddisk2\DP(1)0-0+7
    removeable media
    Mounted on \\.\e:

  NT Block Device Objects
  \\?\Device\CdRom0
    size is 2147483647 bytes
  \\?\Device\Floppy0
  \\?\Device\Harddisk0\Partition0
    link to \\?\Device\Harddisk0\DR0
    Fixed hard disk media. Block size = 512
    size is 20020396032 bytes
  \\?\Device\Harddisk0\Partition1
    link to \\?\Device\HarddiskVolume2
  \\?\Device\Harddisk1\Partition0
    link to \\?\Device\Harddisk1\DR1
    Fixed hard disk media. Block size = 512
    size is 10262568960 bytes
  \\?\Device\Harddisk1\Partition1
    link to \\?\Device\HarddiskVolume1
  \\?\Device\Harddisk2\Partition0
    link to \\?\Device\Harddisk2\DR6
    Removable media other than floppy. Block size = 512
    size is 15833497600 bytes
  \\?\Device\Harddisk2\Partition1
    link to \\?\Device\Harddisk2\DP(1)0-0+7
    Removable media other than floppy. Block size = 512
    size is 15829303296 bytes

some of which appear to be entire disks, not partitions.

Since I was trying to write into a specific area of an SD card connected via a
USB adapator, I took the path which seemed to be that of least resistance,
which was to use a partition which covered the blocks I wanted to write.

If I needed to write the boot block (which contains the partition table), I'd
have probably tried using some of the other devices in the list, but since I
didn't need to, I decided not to get diverted from my real goal by trying
other devices.

Maybe it won't work for what he needs to do. But it worked fine for me, doing
something very similar, so I thought I'd mention it.

	  Noel

From derschjo at gmail.com  Tue May 28 21:30:09 2019
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 19:30:09 -0700
Subject: M7264 Troubleshooting
In-Reply-To: <20190529012308.96D8018C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190529012308.96D8018C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CADBZjLY62hc+50GNuvt1QR_rmigDOkPJc1qBRavXcTC_6zx-Ew@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 6:23 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Hi, sorry about the delayed reply; been dealing with this:
>
>   http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/jpg/backoak/WholeTreeS.jpg
>
> The cranes arrive tomorrow...
>
>
>     > I took a look at all the lines you mentioned. BDAL3-13, BDIN, BSYNC,
> and
>     > BBS7 are all active and jump around in some manner.
>
> Hmm. Well, that shoots down the simplest theory; that a CPU BDAL (or
> perhaps
> BDIN) driver (technically, a transceiver) chip is bad; if you're seeing any
> activity at all on a line, the driver must be working. So, either both
> console
> cards have an issue, or something more complex is going on.
>
> Here are some pictures to show you what you should be seeing, and what I'm
> seeing with an LSI-11 with no console card. First, normal operation:
>
>   http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/jpg/BSYN-BDAL_OK.jpg
>
> The top trace is BSYNC, the bottom BDAL10 (which should be asserted for
> 0177560, the console CSR's address; it's the 02000 bit). The timebase on
> this
> one is 1 usec per division. As you can see, it's in a tight loop reading
> that
> register.
>
> The QBUS spec shows that for a DATI cycle, the DAL lines are set up before
> BSYNC is asserted (falling edge here, since the bus lines are inverted).
> BDA10 is indeed asserted (low) when that happens; shortly after it goes
> back
> to 0 (high) so that device can put its data out on those lines. It stays
> high,
> so that bit in the CSR must be 0.
>
> OK, now a picture of the bus with no console card:
>
>   http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/jpg/BSYN-BDAL_NoCon.jpg
>
> It's a bit hard to interpret what's going on here (note that the timebase
> is
> much larger - 5 usec). The long assertion of BSYNC is undoubtly the CPU
> trying
> to get the console CSR to respond, and eventually timing out.  Not sure
> what
> the short assertion following it is - without looking at the ucode for the
> ODT, there's no way to know what the CPU's doing.
>
> Even harder to understand is what the BDAL line is doing. It looks like
> it's
> un-asserted (0, i.e. +3V) on the falling (electrically - rising, logically)
> edge of BSYN (which would be incorrect - see above). And then it hops
> around
> while BSYNC is asserted, which makes no sense at all to me.
>
>
> At this point, my best guess at the most likely cause of your problem
> (given
> the 'all the lines are doing stuff') is that both console cards have
> issues. Tomorrow, when I'm not outside, I'll try and look at some other
> BDAL
> lines and see if they are doing the same thing with no console card in.
>
>       Noel
>

Dumb question -- this is a long thread, so maybe this has been covered and
I missed it -- but how is the backplane in the H11 currently configured?
(i.e. what boards are in what slots?)  Could the issue here be something as
simple as a break in the qbus due to a misplaced board?

- Josh

From evanlinwood at hotmail.com  Tue May 28 21:39:17 2019
From: evanlinwood at hotmail.com (Evan Linwood)
Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 02:39:17 +0000
Subject: Abandoned FACOM system in Italy?
Message-ID: <MN2PR20MB28615508744A8042BA9685E8AB1F0@MN2PR20MB2861.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>

Andrea (Brent & Glen)

Nice work spotting the factory ..
Needless to say, it might not even be possible to do anything, but hopefully someone takes an interest!


From evanlinwood at hotmail.com  Tue May 28 21:48:54 2019
From: evanlinwood at hotmail.com (Evan Linwood)
Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 02:48:54 +0000
Subject: IBM lifting tool
Message-ID: <MN2PR20MB2861E9199DD4E96A7A3B4A80AB1F0@MN2PR20MB2861.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>

> I bodged together my PDP-Lifter

that's a nice piece of bodging!

From evanlinwood at hotmail.com  Tue May 28 21:56:01 2019
From: evanlinwood at hotmail.com (Evan Linwood)
Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 02:56:01 +0000
Subject: IBM lifting tool
Message-ID: <MN2PR20MB2861C0556C2C25A4022EB89EAB1F0@MN2PR20MB2861.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>

> Their closest current product looks like the Genie Load Lifter.

I saw the name also but didn't think to search :)  - some great looking units there.

From mark at meba.com  Tue May 28 11:56:53 2019
From: mark at meba.com (MEBA)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 11:56:53 -0500
Subject: Hewlett Packard 2601A Printer
Message-ID: <018101d51576$5ad6f9e0$1084eda0$@meba.com>

I have an old daisy wheel printer by Hewlett-Packard, their 2601A. We got
this from an estate cleanout and I would like to sell it. It has been
powered up and the power light comes on and the carriage moves to the
starting position. It is a large, very heavy machine. I have it on ebay for
$150 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/223533138720)  but that was just a shot in
the dark. There is a better description and more pictures in the listing.
Any reasonable offer considered. I have no way to ship this item from here
but will drop it off at the ups store. The buyer will have to make their own
arrangements for packing and shipping with ups.

 

Mark

mark at meba.com

 

 


From wayne.sudol at hotmail.com  Tue May 28 17:39:23 2019
From: wayne.sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne S)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 22:39:23 +0000
Subject: looking for an old IBM knob from a 609 calculator panel
In-Reply-To: <a5d146ce-75f9-eacd-ccdb-fd2088e8ba7a@sydex.com>
References: <e684be3e-5cc9-46d4-c89e-9779406c2fcd@sbcglobal.net>
 <CANij+dcKaD76WbL9RFyjrORL=FUGDKUgwfEnn8dJCoE7rNun_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <03a2b351-de49-5f0a-e227-9881b9392f10@sbcglobal.net>
 <029501d5157a$9c78bf10$d56a3d30$@com>
 <CANij+dfu-Mc67ftzP=aTxCYgstwYSyKDrAi56wc0BPUZB6KHUg@mail.gmail.com>,
 <a5d146ce-75f9-eacd-ccdb-fd2088e8ba7a@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <BYAPR01MB5223AFE46D0C1F2B3D4A7AA7E41E0@BYAPR01MB5223.prod.exchangelabs.com>

There?s a lot of aluminum stove knobs that might fit the bill.  Google ?metal stove replacement button? and you?ll see a few.



Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10



________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2019 3:35:01 PM
To: William Donzelli via cctalk
Subject: Re: looking for an old IBM knob from a 609 calculator panel

On 5/28/19 10:35 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:
> Those knobs look like they are cast pop metal or zinc or something,
> not Bakelite.

What flavor pop?  ("pot" metal or monkey metal).

--Chuck


From cramcram at gmail.com  Tue May 28 23:21:43 2019
From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 21:21:43 -0700
Subject: How to format Dectape (TC08 + TU56)
Message-ID: <CAC20j8S5E+K-20OC=LQBJ0n3XRAmfHQ5k_A19vaMkbnuQ2CO-A@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I fired up the 8/A tonight and the TU56's are failing diags.  I want to
format a tape for scratch use but I can't find the MAINDEC that does this
(along with flipping up the backplane switch.

Can someone refresh me on the proceedure?

Thanks,

Marc Howard

From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Wed May 29 00:07:10 2019
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 06:07:10 +0100
Subject: 11/93 rebuild - Major and Significant Result.
Message-ID: <446db537-f9b6-196b-1fa2-0effe2e34d7b@btinternet.com>

Hi

 ???? Due to the help from Glen Slick. (The only guy to answer the 
question as asked.)

 ???? What to do is interesting. How to do it will get you there.

I now have a SCSI drive on the 11/93 that thinks its an RD54 and is 
trying to boot RSTS/E.

It fails gracefully during the boot? giving an error message.

So we have a working Hard Drive and Controller on the target system.

No to find out what it does not like.

The transfer rig is now working OK.

So I can try out more drives if needed

Rod

-- 



From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed May 29 06:17:03 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 07:17:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: M7264 Troubleshooting
Message-ID: <20190529111703.21A5718C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Josh Dersch

    > how is the backplane in the H11 currently configured? (i.e. what boards
    > are in what slots?)  Could the issue here be something as simple as a
    > break in the qbus due to a misplaced board?

He did mention that he had the console card in the slot next to the CPU, which
I think is what you're referring to - but it shouldn't matter for ODT, which
doesn't use interrupts, only programmed I/O.

A QBUS system will work fine without continuity of grant (interrupt, DMA)
lines to boards which only respond to DATI/DATO (memory, non-interrupt I/O,
etc). Just for grins, I took my -11/03, and plugged the console card in a
bunch of slots down, leaving several empty slots between it and the CPU, and
it worked 'fine': ODT was fine, and it would run "BR ." programs fine, too.

So unless there's actually a break in one of the 'broadcast' bus lines (e.g.
BDALxx, etc) on that backplane, between the CPU slot, and the slot the console
card is in, or something like that...

I suppose it would be worth while checking BDALn, BSYNC and BDIN _on the
console card_ (I'm not sure where he was looking at them, before) just to
rule out the broken bus line possibility.


One thing that's bugging me, though; he said "BDAL3-13 .. are all active and
jump around in some manner". But for the ODT microcode loop trying to read the
console CSR, i.e. 0177560, BDAL7 (0200) and BDAL3 (010) should be 0, i.e.
un-asserted.

So why are they jumping around too? Is this somehow related to the odd behaviour
I was seeing on my machine with no console card, where the BDAL line was behaving
in a way I couldn't understand?

I'm going to look into that more, to try and understand what I'm seeing there,
but it won't be today, which is 'crane day'!

   Noel

From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Wed May 29 06:41:19 2019
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 06:41:19 -0500
Subject: "industrial" PDP-11
In-Reply-To: <95e1e419-e0bc-8785-4bb4-534d88077a9d@gmail.com>
References: <95e1e419-e0bc-8785-4bb4-534d88077a9d@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d71c37d5-f935-5642-d415-abbd494dd351@gmail.com>

On 5/15/19 6:25 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote:
> 
> Hey all,
> 
> I bumped into someone who has some early (mid 1970 on some of the photos 
> I've seen) PDP-11 bits - front panel and a handful of boards (the 
> backplane, PSU, rack, peripherals etc. are long gone).

Ugh, update... apparently they gave everything to someone who does 
"steampunk stuff", so they're probably chopped into pieces by now :-(


From holm at freibergnet.de  Wed May 29 07:14:28 2019
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 14:14:28 +0200
Subject: 11/93 rebuild
In-Reply-To: <20190529013920.F0F3E18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190529013920.F0F3E18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20190529121428.GA21312@beast.freibergnet.de>

Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:

>     > From: Holm Tiffe
> 
>     > You have to have an already existing parition structure on the disk and
>     > an OS that knows what todo with that.
> 
> The "--list" command to 'dd' gives a whole bunch of stuff:


aha:

$ dd --list
dd: unknown operand --list
$

> 
>   Win32 Available Volume Information
>   \\.\Volume{cd4ae459-0daa-11e2-9625-806d6172696f}\
>     link to \\?\Device\HarddiskVolume1
>     fixed media
>     Mounted on \\.\d:
> 
>   \\.\Volume{f3c65dd6-01af-11e1-a511-806d6172696f}\
[..]
> 
> some of which appear to be entire disks, not partitions.

Nobody in a PDP11 is interested what Windows thinks about partitions.

Most of the PDP11 SCSI Controllers could build two or more PDP11 disks
out of one physical device. That is what I meant with partition in this
case, if you dind'nt like it,  call it slice.
There is some logical information on the device, you simply don't get
the entire raw device on the pdp as you possibly think.

Shure, you can write to the entire disk on an PC with some tools, but
what you write has to fit the CQD220 adapters idea how the data structure
has to be if you would boot that.

Tapes have no such restrictions, that's why I suggested using a tape.

Regard's

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From holm at freibergnet.de  Wed May 29 07:18:30 2019
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 14:18:30 +0200
Subject: 11/93 rebuild - Major and Significant Result.
In-Reply-To: <446db537-f9b6-196b-1fa2-0effe2e34d7b@btinternet.com>
References: <446db537-f9b6-196b-1fa2-0effe2e34d7b@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <20190529121830.GB21312@beast.freibergnet.de>

Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote:

> Hi
> 
>  ???? Due to the help from Glen Slick. (The only guy to answer the 
> question as asked.)
> 
>  ???? What to do is interesting. How to do it will get you there.
> 
> I now have a SCSI drive on the 11/93 that thinks its an RD54 and is 
> trying to boot RSTS/E.
> 
> It fails gracefully during the boot? giving an error message.



..."an error message"??

Similar to q: "what's on the display?"  a: "a flower vase.."
( yes I know, this fits better in german)

What error message?

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From aek at bitsavers.org  Wed May 29 10:00:59 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 08:00:59 -0700
Subject: Abandoned FACOM system in Italy?
In-Reply-To: <MN2PR20MB28615508744A8042BA9685E8AB1F0@MN2PR20MB2861.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
References: <MN2PR20MB28615508744A8042BA9685E8AB1F0@MN2PR20MB2861.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <0cd812ba-82eb-0f57-b422-2db5762a027c@bitsavers.org>



On 5/28/19 7:39 PM, Evan Linwood via cctalk wrote:

> hopefully someone takes an interest!
> 

considering 3178 keyboards are over $1000 on eBay, I expect the keyboard collectors to take every keyboard that
is there


From mark at meba.com  Wed May 29 12:07:11 2019
From: mark at meba.com (MEBA)
Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 12:07:11 -0500
Subject: Post?
Message-ID: <01cb01d51640$f53f9300$dfbeb900$@meba.com>

Did my post for the HP printer get posted? I haven't seen it.

 

Mark

 


From wrcooke at wrcooke.net  Wed May 29 12:16:43 2019
From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net)
Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 12:16:43 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Post?
In-Reply-To: <01cb01d51640$f53f9300$dfbeb900$@meba.com>
References: <01cb01d51640$f53f9300$dfbeb900$@meba.com>
Message-ID: <1305345674.421955.1559150203931@email.ionos.com>


> On May 29, 2019 at 12:07 PM MEBA via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> Did my post for the HP printer get posted? I haven't seen it.
> 
>  
> 
> Mark


This one?

I have an old daisy wheel printer by Hewlett-Packard, their 2601A. We got
this from an estate cleanout and I would like to sell it. It has been
powered up and the power light comes on and the carriage moves to the
starting position. It is a large, very heavy machine. I have it on ebay for
$150 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/223533138720)  but that was just a shot in
the dark. There is a better description and more pictures in the listing.
Any reasonable offer considered. I have no way to ship this item from here
but will drop it off at the ups store. The buyer will have to make their own
arrangements for packing and shipping with ups.

 

Mark

mark at meba.com

From sales at elecplus.com  Wed May 29 12:17:39 2019
From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus)
Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 12:17:39 -0500
Subject: Post?
In-Reply-To: <01cb01d51640$f53f9300$dfbeb900$@meba.com>
References: <01cb01d51640$f53f9300$dfbeb900$@meba.com>
Message-ID: <024101d51642$6b4b5790$41e206b0$@com>



-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of MEBA via
cctalk
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2019 12:07 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Post?

Did my post for the HP printer get posted? I haven't seen it.

 

Mark

 Yes, it did.

Cindy


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


From ggs at shiresoft.com  Wed May 29 13:09:42 2019
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr)
Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 11:09:42 -0700
Subject: Abandoned FACOM system in Italy?
In-Reply-To: <0cd812ba-82eb-0f57-b422-2db5762a027c@bitsavers.org>
References: <MN2PR20MB28615508744A8042BA9685E8AB1F0@MN2PR20MB2861.namprd20.prod.outlook.com>
 <0cd812ba-82eb-0f57-b422-2db5762a027c@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <E5D8796E-FE8B-4239-92E0-AE25E8362F32@shiresoft.com>


> On May 29, 2019, at 8:00 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 5/28/19 7:39 PM, Evan Linwood via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> hopefully someone takes an interest!
>> 
> 
> considering 3178 keyboards are over $1000 on eBay, I expect the keyboard collectors to take every keyboard that
> is there
> 

3278 keyboards.  ;-)

I?d be happy with a couple of sets of keycaps to turn my 3278 data entry keyboards into 3278 typewriter keyboards.  ;-)

TTFN - Guy


From allisonportable at gmail.com  Wed May 29 11:40:20 2019
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 12:40:20 -0400
Subject: M7264 Troubleshooting
In-Reply-To: <20190529111703.21A5718C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190529111703.21A5718C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <c81e4df5-b403-59f1-4763-41863393352b@gmail.com>

On 05/29/2019 07:17 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctech wrote:
>     > From: Josh Dersch
> 
>     > how is the backplane in the H11 currently configured? (i.e. what boards
>     > are in what slots?)  Could the issue here be something as simple as a
>     > break in the qbus due to a misplaced board?
> 
> He did mention that he had the console card in the slot next to the CPU, which
> I think is what you're referring to - but it shouldn't matter for ODT, which
> doesn't use interrupts, only programmed I/O.
> 
> A QBUS system will work fine without continuity of grant (interrupt, DMA)
> lines to boards which only respond to DATI/DATO (memory, non-interrupt I/O,
> etc). Just for grins, I took my -11/03, and plugged the console card in a
> bunch of slots down, leaving several empty slots between it and the CPU, and
> it worked 'fine': ODT was fine, and it would run "BR ." programs fine, too.
> 
> So unless there's actually a break in one of the 'broadcast' bus lines (e.g.
> BDALxx, etc) on that backplane, between the CPU slot, and the slot the console
> card is in, or something like that...
> 
> I suppose it would be worth while checking BDALn, BSYNC and BDIN _on the
> console card_ (I'm not sure where he was looking at them, before) just to
> rule out the broken bus line possibility.
> 
> 
> One thing that's bugging me, though; he said "BDAL3-13 .. are all active and
> jump around in some manner". But for the ODT microcode loop trying to read the
> console CSR, i.e. 0177560, BDAL7 (0200) and BDAL3 (010) should be 0, i.e.
> un-asserted.
> 
> So why are they jumping around too? Is this somehow related to the odd behaviour
> I was seeing on my machine with no console card, where the BDAL line was behaving
> in a way I couldn't understand?
> 

BDAL, Bus Data and Address lines.  During the nominal cycle the address,
then strobe, then data (from ot to an addresses device or memory) and
controls asserted for the cycle type (ReadWord, Read ByteHigh,
ReadbyteLOW, WriteWORD and so on.  There are also transfers on the
same lines for interrupt vector and priority.

All that makes the BDAL lines busy...

Generally the LSI-11 is a bit stranger as it also does bus level
memory refresh for dynamic ram card that do not refresh themselves.
The contemporary memory cards did not self refresh and used the early
4K or 16K 16pin devices.  Memory used for 11/23 (f11) and later
by then self refresh on the local card level was the norm and cut
bus traffic load.

Many of the functions were replicated as part of the T-11 CPU.

> I'm going to look into that more, to try and understand what I'm seeing there,
> but it won't be today, which is 'crane day'!

Big tree!

Allison


> 
>    Noel
> 


From wayne.sudol at hotmail.com  Wed May 29 12:09:33 2019
From: wayne.sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne S)
Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 17:09:33 +0000
Subject: Post?
In-Reply-To: <01cb01d51640$f53f9300$dfbeb900$@meba.com>
References: <01cb01d51640$f53f9300$dfbeb900$@meba.com>
Message-ID: <BYAPR01MB5223A71C614B922BE01DEF33E41F0@BYAPR01MB5223.prod.exchangelabs.com>

Yes it did. I remember seeing it  twice.



Sent from my iPhone

> On May 29, 2019, at 10:07, MEBA via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Did my post for the HP printer get posted? I haven't seen it.
> 
> 
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> 

From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk  Wed May 29 13:19:44 2019
From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson)
Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 20:19:44 +0200
Subject: Post?
In-Reply-To: <01cb01d51640$f53f9300$dfbeb900$@meba.com>
References: <01cb01d51640$f53f9300$dfbeb900$@meba.com>
Message-ID: <a85cf7c6-776c-5aa3-2848-b81f5b00a48b@ljw.me.uk>


On 29/05/19 7:07 PM, MEBA via cctalk wrote:
> Did my post for the HP printer get posted? I haven't seen it.
>
>  
>
> Mark

Some mail systems will not send you an email that appears to be from
yourself (I think gmail is one of these) so it can appear that your post
has not appeared.

You can also check the archive (e.g.
http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2019-May/date.html ) to find
an email - if it's in there then it was posted.


-- 
Lawrence Wilkinson                          lawrence at ljw.me.uk
The IBM 360/30 page                   http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Wed May 29 13:33:16 2019
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 11:33:16 -0700
Subject: Hewlett Packard 2601A Printer
In-Reply-To: <018101d51576$5ad6f9e0$1084eda0$@meba.com>
References: <018101d51576$5ad6f9e0$1084eda0$@meba.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOw+kdhtDJHSJpQvcvLysETutk2aFELfeyrGQyneJiVr+XA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 9:58 PM MEBA via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> I have an old daisy wheel printer by Hewlett-Packard, their 2601A. We got
> this from an estate cleanout and I would like to sell it. It has been
> powered up and the power light comes on and the carriage moves to the
> starting position. It is a large, very heavy machine. I have it on ebay for
> $150 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/223533138720)  but that was just a shot in
> the dark. There is a better description and more pictures in the listing.
> Any reasonable offer considered. I have no way to ship this item from here
> but will drop it off at the ups store. The buyer will have to make their own
> arrangements for packing and shipping with ups.
>

http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=326

The 2601A was a 40 character-per-second daisy wheel printer. It was a
wide-carriage printer that could also print on multipart forms. HP
OEM'd this printer from Diablo (model 630). The 2601A came standard
with an RS-232-C interface and did not offer an HP-IB option.

From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net  Wed May 29 13:52:55 2019
From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink)
Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 14:52:55 -0400
Subject: RIP: John Parsons
Message-ID: <15ec01d5164f$ba86c6c0$2f945440$@verizon.net>

I have unfortunately just discovered that John Parsons, who shared my
interest in the Cromemco Cyclops and spoke at VCF East XI, passed away on
March 29th:

 

https://www.kentandpelczarfh.com/obituary/john-parsons

 

Bill S.

 



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed May 29 14:23:10 2019
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 12:23:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Hewlett Packard 2601A Printer
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOw+kdhtDJHSJpQvcvLysETutk2aFELfeyrGQyneJiVr+XA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <018101d51576$5ad6f9e0$1084eda0$@meba.com>
 <CAM2UOw+kdhtDJHSJpQvcvLysETutk2aFELfeyrGQyneJiVr+XA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1905291222120.31826@shell.lmi.net>

>> I have an old daisy wheel printer by Hewlett-Packard, their 2601A. We got
>> this from an estate cleanout and I would like to sell it. It has been
>> powered up and the power light comes on and the carriage moves to the
>> starting position. It is a large, very heavy machine. I have it on ebay for
>> $150 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/223533138720)  but that was just a shot in
>> the dark. There is a better description and more pictures in the listing.
>> Any reasonable offer considered. I have no way to ship this item from here
>> but will drop it off at the ups store. The buyer will have to make their own
>> arrangements for packing and shipping with ups.

On Wed, 29 May 2019, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote:
> http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=326
> The 2601A was a 40 character-per-second daisy wheel printer. It was a
> wide-carriage printer that could also print on multipart forms. HP
> OEM'd this printer from Diablo (model 630). The 2601A came standard
> with an RS-232-C interface and did not offer an HP-IB option.

Do very many people pay that price range in that condition?

From echristopherson at gmail.com  Wed May 29 14:45:49 2019
From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson)
Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 14:45:49 -0500
Subject: Post?
In-Reply-To: <a85cf7c6-776c-5aa3-2848-b81f5b00a48b@ljw.me.uk>
References: <01cb01d51640$f53f9300$dfbeb900$@meba.com>
 <a85cf7c6-776c-5aa3-2848-b81f5b00a48b@ljw.me.uk>
Message-ID: <CADyB93Bz4e=vxc=1E1WWVGq7mHqGZ3RvaApmkxbS+4=M00mQZQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 1:20 PM Lawrence Wilkinson via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> On 29/05/19 7:07 PM, MEBA via cctalk wrote:
> > Did my post for the HP printer get posted? I haven't seen it.
> >
> >
> >
> > Mark
>
> Some mail systems will not send you an email that appears to be from
> yourself (I think gmail is one of these) so it can appear that your post
> has not appeared.
>
> You can also check the archive (e.g.
> http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2019-May/date.html ) to find
> an email - if it's in there then it was posted.
>

My Gmail account seems to like to silently delete/not deliver mails from
this list and others I'm subscribed to. They don't end up in the spam
folder, either. Over the past few months there have been several times I've
noticed replies on this list that quoted messages that I never received the
originals of; and likewise messages that show up on the archive that don't
show up in email.

As someone on another mailing list recently responded when I brought this
up there said:

"It's a habit of gmail to hold back mail it thinks might be suspect, and
deliver it to a small number of recipients, then wait to see if they
mark it spam, before delivering to more and more recipients. This can
delay messages for several days."

^ I'm not sure if the above is what happens to me; I do sometimes see
things arriving out of order, but I'm pretty confident there are certain
messages that just never show up. But then again my folders are so full of
unread (or partially unread) threads that I could just miss it once I
forget about the topic and new replies aren't being posted to it anymore to
bump it to the top.

-- 
        Eric Christopherson

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed May 29 16:01:12 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 17:01:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: 11/93 rebuild
Message-ID: <20190529210112.D79D618C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Holm Tiffe

    >> The "--list" command to 'dd' gives a whole bunch of stuff:

    > aha:
    > $ dd --list
    > dd: unknown operand --list

I was talking about the program I had mentioned in the previous email, "dd
for Windows". The "--list" command to it produced that long list of devices
(the list you edited out of the reply), so it definitely works there.


    > Nobody in a PDP11 is interested what Windows thinks about partitions.

Understood, but in my previous email I had given an example using a uSloth
partition:

   >> dd-removable if=UnixRoot of=\\?\Device\Harddisk2\Partition0 count=4872 seek=131072

so when your reply mentioned "partitions" ("You have to have an already
existing parition structure on the disk") it was natural to assume you meant
those - especially since there was a plausible reading of your comment
involving them (i.e. 'does "dd for Windows" only work on a disk with an
existing uSloth partition structure on it').


    > Most of the PDP11 SCSI Controllers could build two or more PDP11 disks
    > out of one physical device. That is what I meant with partition in this
    > case .. There is some logical information on the device, you simply
    > don't get the entire raw device on the pdp as you possibly think.

That's a good point, and perhaps there's no existing way to write a SCSI disk
from a Windoze box in a way that the PDP11 SCSI controllers can grok. I don't
know enough about how they work to answer that.


    > Tapes have no such restrictions

Right, but one has to have a tape drive; the OP may not.

       Noel

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Wed May 29 16:18:50 2019
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 22:18:50 +0100
Subject: Post?
In-Reply-To: <CADyB93Bz4e=vxc=1E1WWVGq7mHqGZ3RvaApmkxbS+4=M00mQZQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <01cb01d51640$f53f9300$dfbeb900$@meba.com>
 <a85cf7c6-776c-5aa3-2848-b81f5b00a48b@ljw.me.uk>
 <CADyB93Bz4e=vxc=1E1WWVGq7mHqGZ3RvaApmkxbS+4=M00mQZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <42f201d51664$1c916910$55b43b30$@gmail.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Eric
> Christopherson via cctalk
> Sent: 29 May 2019 20:46
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Post?
> 
> On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 1:20 PM Lawrence Wilkinson via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> >
> > On 29/05/19 7:07 PM, MEBA via cctalk wrote:
> > > Did my post for the HP printer get posted? I haven't seen it.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Mark
> >
> > Some mail systems will not send you an email that appears to be from
> > yourself (I think gmail is one of these) so it can appear that your
> > post has not appeared.
> >
> > You can also check the archive (e.g.
> > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2019-May/date.html ) to
> > find an email - if it's in there then it was posted.
> >
> 
> My Gmail account seems to like to silently delete/not deliver mails from this
> list and others I'm subscribed to. They don't end up in the spam folder,
> either. Over the past few months there have been several times I've noticed
> replies on this list that quoted messages that I never received the originals
> of; and likewise messages that show up on the archive that don't show up in
> email.
> 
> As someone on another mailing list recently responded when I brought this
> up there said:
> 
> "It's a habit of gmail to hold back mail it thinks might be suspect, and deliver it
> to a small number of recipients, then wait to see if they mark it spam, before
> delivering to more and more recipients. This can delay messages for several
> days."
> 
> ^ I'm not sure if the above is what happens to me; I do sometimes see things
> arriving out of order, but I'm pretty confident there are certain messages
> that just never show up. But then again my folders are so full of unread (or
> partially unread) threads that I could just miss it once I forget about the topic
> and new replies aren't being posted to it anymore to bump it to the top.

That does not appear to happen to me. What I do see is discrepancies between cctech and cctalk.
I assume this is because the processes to make sure content is passed to the correct lists is manual.
I also believe that there is some manual moderation....

> 
> --
>         Eric Christopherson

Dave
G4UGM


From fmc at reanimators.org  Wed May 29 16:22:44 2019
From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell)
Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 14:22:44 -0700
Subject: Hewlett Packard 2601A Printer
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOw+kdhtDJHSJpQvcvLysETutk2aFELfeyrGQyneJiVr+XA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <018101d51576$5ad6f9e0$1084eda0$@meba.com>
 <CAM2UOw+kdhtDJHSJpQvcvLysETutk2aFELfeyrGQyneJiVr+XA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <921E4F96-BF79-491C-9793-F970C78C7BE4@reanimators.org>

On May 29, 2019, at 11:33, Glen Slick wrote:
> 
> On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 9:58 PM MEBA via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> 
>> I have an old daisy wheel printer by Hewlett-Packard, their 2601A. We got
>> this from an estate cleanout and I would like to sell it. It has been
>> powered up and the power light comes on and the carriage moves to the
>> starting position. It is a large, very heavy machine. I have it on ebay for
>> $150 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/223533138720)  but that was just a shot in
>> the dark. There is a better description and more pictures in the listing.
>> Any reasonable offer considered. I have no way to ship this item from here
>> but will drop it off at the ups store. The buyer will have to make their own
>> arrangements for packing and shipping with ups.
>> 
> 
> http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=326
> 
> The 2601A was a 40 character-per-second daisy wheel printer. It was a
> wide-carriage printer that could also print on multipart forms. HP
> OEM'd this printer from Diablo (model 630). The 2601A came standard
> with an RS-232-C interface and did not offer an HP-IB option.

40 characters per second if you choose your characters and their sequencing
well.  I?m remembering them being connected to terminals and microcomputers
(HP 150, HP Vectra PC) at 9600 bps and needing some sort of flow control.
I am thinking there was a jumper on the serial I/O board that needed to be
set just so.  And yes, they are mostly Diablo 630 printers.

They?re nice daisywheel printers.  Loud enough that HP sold an enclosure.
Fancy enough that HP sold a simple tractor feed kit and a fancy cut-sheet
feed unit with two input bins.  The enclosure was big enough for either.

-Frank McConnell




From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com  Wed May 29 18:48:31 2019
From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson)
Date: Wed, 29 May 2019 19:48:31 -0400
Subject: How to format Dectape (TC08 + TU56)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1559149200.7770.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.3.1559149200.7770.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <CAH1BU=_R18DZ4C_m8b+F8sWp0thmN1qPpy8qdxFAnOCXMsqZeg@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 21:21:43 -0700
> From: Marc Howard <cramcram at gmail.com>
> Subject: How to format Dectape (TC08 + TU56)
>
> Hi,
>
> I fired up the 8/A tonight and the TU56's are failing diags.  I want to
> format a tape for scratch use but I can't find the MAINDEC that does this
> (along with flipping up the backplane switch.
>
> Can someone refresh me on the proceedure?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Marc Howard


MAINDEC-08-EUFB should work on both TC01 and TC08 controllers.

-- 
Michael Thompson

From lproven at gmail.com  Thu May 30 11:43:48 2019
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 18:43:48 +0200
Subject: Reddist offer: PDP-11/34a available for free in the Coachella Valley
Message-ID: <CAMTenCHbrk=tyMO_QX-_iN0wUi58YO67=p4+tqEXSipFfQ_3-g@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.reddit.com/r/vintagecomputing/comments/bunk5m/pdp1134a_available_for_free_in_the_coachella/

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From couryhouse at aol.com  Thu May 30 11:51:12 2019
From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 16:51:12 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Post?
In-Reply-To: <42f201d51664$1c916910$55b43b30$@gmail.com>
References: <01cb01d51640$f53f9300$dfbeb900$@meba.com>
 <a85cf7c6-776c-5aa3-2848-b81f5b00a48b@ljw.me.uk>
 <CADyB93Bz4e=vxc=1E1WWVGq7mHqGZ3RvaApmkxbS+4=M00mQZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <42f201d51664$1c916910$55b43b30$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <849280555.1543644.1559235072973@mail.yahoo.com>

ah yes? I? remember selling? a? few of? these? when our? customer wanted nice multi part? forms? printing? .. usually? tried? to? ?ask? them to? convert? to laser? and have? laser print? form? fill in? added? info? and print X amount? of copies needed? if? the? freight? was? not? such a? problem? would? be interest? ?for museums? collection? at? ?SMECC? ? Ed#

In a message dated 5/29/2019 2:19:04 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Eric
> Christopherson via cctalk
> Sent: 29 May 2019 20:46
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Post?
> 
> On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 1:20 PM Lawrence Wilkinson via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> >
> > On 29/05/19 7:07 PM, MEBA via cctalk wrote:
> > > Did my post for the HP printer get posted? I haven't seen it.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Mark
> >
> > Some mail systems will not send you an email that appears to be from
> > yourself (I think gmail is one of these) so it can appear that your
> > post has not appeared.
> >
> > You can also check the archive (e.g.
> > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2019-May/date.html ) to
> > find an email - if it's in there then it was posted.
> >
> 
> My Gmail account seems to like to silently delete/not deliver mails from this
> list and others I'm subscribed to. They don't end up in the spam folder,
> either. Over the past few months there have been several times I've noticed
> replies on this list that quoted messages that I never received the originals
> of; and likewise messages that show up on the archive that don't show up in
> email.
> 
> As someone on another mailing list recently responded when I brought this
> up there said:
> 
> "It's a habit of gmail to hold back mail it thinks might be suspect, and deliver it
> to a small number of recipients, then wait to see if they mark it spam, before
> delivering to more and more recipients. This can delay messages for several
> days."
> 
> ^ I'm not sure if the above is what happens to me; I do sometimes see things
> arriving out of order, but I'm pretty confident there are certain messages
> that just never show up. But then again my folders are so full of unread (or
> partially unread) threads that I could just miss it once I forget about the topic
> and new replies aren't being posted to it anymore to bump it to the top.

That does not appear to happen to me. What I do see is discrepancies between cctech and cctalk.
I assume this is because the processes to make sure content is passed to the correct lists is manual.
I also believe that there is some manual moderation....

> 
> --
>? ? ? ? Eric Christopherson

Dave
G4UGM


From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Thu May 30 12:30:51 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 11:30:51 -0600
Subject: Process accounting - did anyone ever use it?
Message-ID: <5e87cc78-b8a4-4715-0c70-2550861f394c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

(Credit the Quotas thread for prompting this.)

Did anyone ever use process accounting?  Did they actually bill 
departments (funny money)?

I was always intrigued by process accounting, but never had a use for it 
myself.

I guess I can thank process accounting for causing the discrepancy that 
Cliff Stole tracked down that became The Cuckoo's Egg.  :-)



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Thu May 30 12:38:34 2019
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 13:38:34 -0400
Subject: Reddist offer: PDP-11/34a available for free in the Coachella
 Valley
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCHbrk=tyMO_QX-_iN0wUi58YO67=p4+tqEXSipFfQ_3-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCHbrk=tyMO_QX-_iN0wUi58YO67=p4+tqEXSipFfQ_3-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimmdmRCmi7kqdQMM77BZBDdth-KQeLciWeMpCVT=yhfxHA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 12:44 PM Liam Proven via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> https://www.reddit.com/r/vintagecomputing/comments/bunk5m/pdp1134a_available_for_free_in_the_coachella/

A mere 2100 miles from me, but hopefully a list member is a lot closer.

-ethan

From jismay at unixboxen.net  Thu May 30 13:26:21 2019
From: jismay at unixboxen.net (Brian Ismay)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 11:26:21 -0700
Subject: Reddist offer: PDP-11/34a available for free in the Coachella
 Valley
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimmdmRCmi7kqdQMM77BZBDdth-KQeLciWeMpCVT=yhfxHA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCHbrk=tyMO_QX-_iN0wUi58YO67=p4+tqEXSipFfQ_3-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmdmRCmi7kqdQMM77BZBDdth-KQeLciWeMpCVT=yhfxHA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c203c667-c151-dbf6-b0dc-f4943ddf8d2a@unixboxen.net>

I'm located only a few hours away and have a trailer. I could do a 
retrieval and temporary storage on the 9th if there is someone seriously 
interested.

--

Brian

On 5/30/19 10:38 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:
> On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 12:44 PM Liam Proven via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/vintagecomputing/comments/bunk5m/pdp1134a_available_for_free_in_the_coachella/
> A mere 2100 miles from me, but hopefully a list member is a lot closer.
>
> -ethan

From kula at tproa.net  Thu May 30 14:38:20 2019
From: kula at tproa.net (Thomas Kula)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 15:38:20 -0400
Subject: Process accounting - did anyone ever use it?
In-Reply-To: <5e87cc78-b8a4-4715-0c70-2550861f394c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <5e87cc78-b8a4-4715-0c70-2550861f394c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <20190530193819.34vmacqnjfxup6qw@keymaster.tproa.net>

On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 11:30:51AM -0600, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> (Credit the Quotas thread for prompting this.)
> 
> Did anyone ever use process accounting?  Did they actually bill departments
> (funny money)?

When I was an undergrad at Drake University the 'academic' VAX, running
VMS 6.mumble, would spit out a monthly accounting report on the DEC
laser printer we had attached to the thing. One of my many jobs was
working the counter where the printer was at, and I was often amused by
how many thousands of dollars I had spent in CPU time that month. 

I don't think they did anything with it - if so, my student loans would
have been way way worse than they were - and suspect it was set up when
the thing was originally an 11/750 and carried through the 4000-600 it
was when I was using it and when they shut it off (incidentially, it's
now sitting in my apartment). I think the only real use for the report
was to provide a baseline printer paper order each month....

-- 
Thomas L. Kula | kula at tproa.net | https://kula.tproa.net/

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Thu May 30 15:00:57 2019
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 21:00:57 +0100
Subject: Process accounting - did anyone ever use it?
In-Reply-To: <5e87cc78-b8a4-4715-0c70-2550861f394c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <5e87cc78-b8a4-4715-0c70-2550861f394c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <4b0801d51722$66347b20$329d7160$@gmail.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Grant Taylor via
> cctalk
> Sent: 30 May 2019 18:31
> To: cctalk mailing list <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Process accounting - did anyone ever use it?
> 
> (Credit the Quotas thread for prompting this.)
> 
> Did anyone ever use process accounting?  Did they actually bill departments
> (funny money)?
> 
> I was always intrigued by process accounting, but never had a use for it
> myself.
> 
> I guess I can thank process accounting for causing the discrepancy that Cliff
> Stole tracked down that became The Cuckoo's Egg.  :-)
> 
> 

When I worked at Refuge Assurance in Manchester, England we used process accounting on our Honeywell L66 under GCOS 3.
I don't think we really did detailed charging, but we used the accounting records to divide up the cost of running the machine among the departments.

I wrote the accounting routing .MBORT7 I think which was a small assembler routine that ran at the end of every job. 
It printed out the charges for store , disk and CPU and wrote to a journal....

I remember years after I left my wife, who worked in the company secretarial department, which is generally called governance these days,  brought a print[out home detailing some shareholdings.
After she had complained how useless the figures were, she then asked what the extra figures were on the bottom of the page. 

I explained it was a bit of code I wrote, that worked out the cost of the job!. She said as it was useless she was going to ask for a credit...
... I don't remember if she got one....


> 
> --
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die


Dave
G4UGM


From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com  Thu May 30 16:08:31 2019
From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 14:08:31 -0700
Subject: Process accounting - did anyone ever use it?
In-Reply-To: <5e87cc78-b8a4-4715-0c70-2550861f394c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <5e87cc78-b8a4-4715-0c70-2550861f394c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <CANV78LQd1hd1z0jBHibyCvWJ5bd93nwz=f5QsB36S4Y0Pu4jqw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 10:31 AM Grant Taylor via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> (Credit the Quotas thread for prompting this.)
>
> Did anyone ever use process accounting?  Did they actually bill
> departments (funny money)?
>
>
I am not billed for it, but the data is collected:

logout

CAnthony.User logged out 05/30/19  1705.9 edt Thu
CPU usage 19 sec, memory usage 2.4 units, cost $1.33.
hangup
Multics has disconnected you

-- Charles

From pschow at gmail.com  Thu May 30 16:09:20 2019
From: pschow at gmail.com (Peter Schow)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 15:09:20 -0600
Subject: Process accounting - did anyone ever use it?
In-Reply-To: <4b0801d51722$66347b20$329d7160$@gmail.com>
References: <5e87cc78-b8a4-4715-0c70-2550861f394c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <4b0801d51722$66347b20$329d7160$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANaTVhV7xNbzVbYe8yKS5SPze2pEGdgpgApJ8e1WzKCV7x2WSw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 2:01 PM Dave Wade via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> Did anyone ever use process accounting?  Did they actually bill departments
> (funny money)?

Starting in the 60's, many centralized academic computing centers
(mine included) operated on a cost-recovery basis and had accounting
groups (people) and processes to bill back departments for usage. It
was funny money for some chargebacks (e.g. student allocations) but it
also involved very-real funds when external grants were used to pay
for resources.   Most of this disappeared starting in the 90's when
departmental computers became possible.

From systems.glitch at gmail.com  Thu May 30 16:29:44 2019
From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 17:29:44 -0400
Subject: RIP: John Parsons
In-Reply-To: <15ec01d5164f$ba86c6c0$2f945440$@verizon.net>
References: <15ec01d5164f$ba86c6c0$2f945440$@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <CAA+dubK0Yx4qXuUPGD-ctV-jPg9J8xoahp0ey0eNiTRa1SJtAw@mail.gmail.com>

That's sad to hear. I'd wondered why I hadn't heard anything back about the
S-100 system he was working on. He had me build up a s100computers.com IDE
controller for it. Thanks for letting us know.

Thanks,
Jonathan

On Wed, May 29, 2019 at 2:53 PM William Sudbrink via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I have unfortunately just discovered that John Parsons, who shared my
> interest in the Cromemco Cyclops and spoke at VCF East XI, passed away on
> March 29th:
>
>
>
> https://www.kentandpelczarfh.com/obituary/john-parsons
>
>
>
> Bill S.
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>

From bobh at tds.net  Thu May 30 12:51:36 2019
From: bobh at tds.net (bobh at tds.net)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 13:51:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Process accounting - did anyone ever use it?
In-Reply-To: <5e87cc78-b8a4-4715-0c70-2550861f394c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <5e87cc78-b8a4-4715-0c70-2550861f394c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <1589796856.17819211.1559238696341.JavaMail.zimbra@tds.net>

Not sure of the reference in the last paragraph, but I know a company that processes seafood; clams, lobster, scallops, etc. They track every process so they know exactly what it cost to produce each product that they sell. The General Ledger had over 1,000 accounts. 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Grant Taylor via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
To: "cctalk mailing list" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2019 1:30:51 PM
Subject: Process accounting - did anyone ever use it?

(Credit the Quotas thread for prompting this.)

Did anyone ever use process accounting?  Did they actually bill 
departments (funny money)?

I was always intrigued by process accounting, but never had a use for it 
myself.

I guess I can thank process accounting for causing the discrepancy that 
Cliff Stole tracked down that became The Cuckoo's Egg.  :-)



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From shadoooo at gmail.com  Thu May 30 14:20:50 2019
From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 21:20:50 +0200
Subject: DEC R80 HDA details
In-Reply-To: <CAM4zSsWQ-WCMDBke+Q+gFi41Fs+JhOAVsO2zUmzAOHd3Hs5f8A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM4zSsXG48-Ttb4VxjhYOFbWkrPRh5qA9Co0Z-yrAOhSGpYArg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsU8uK6U7PNa9ysKUNRYc4Q4hGUO4dT4gMXbPkqfiSgYoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsX1=dx=EWtn2TLc0uh1n_JC5XhH93tYNC6CDpMNO8a7zA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsXpeWg0+tcP4AKG5xA3hsYDQ3MdiY-5cSFAH6c-B3himw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsVxCHnwmDfLMmNgp83dOp0vnAb2prQBOtBWsj+3387BCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsWYhrEPcz+nR7UyYofK-TqkOg1QV_ESgLu0TJCpzCYK6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsUrEEv712C0m65qOWxveYjhYfLroATMvHJV_ejWuRHVHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsXLS3EaPD7yJD_CCjp6uoNoMH=VzzS=4qr3hBTTq-4rUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsWQ-WCMDBke+Q+gFi41Fs+JhOAVsO2zUmzAOHd3Hs5f8A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM4zSsXW_c1xqE-FN2tQ7CiWdNpJtaBwD2KaZphMAqyADES=Lg@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,
I'm in the process of cleaning and hopefully restore to operation of a DEC
R80.
The unit has some minor sign of corrosion, however it's VERY dirty, even
inside the hood.
The filters are obviously to be removed and replaced, as they are
disintegrating.
Also foam parts between the boards must be replaced.
Aside from obvious parts, there's something that should be replaced /
cleaned inside the HDA (foams, filters or rubbers), which could damage the
disk permanently in case it's turned on after decades if not "cured" before?
Anybody has some good pictures of the HDA inside, after cover removal?

Thanks
Andrea

From djg at pdp8online.com  Thu May 30 19:36:15 2019
From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 20:36:15 -0400
Subject: How to format Dectape (TC08 + TU56)
In-Reply-To: <CAC20j8S5E+K-20OC=LQBJ0n3XRAmfHQ5k_A19vaMkbnuQ2CO-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAC20j8S5E+K-20OC=LQBJ0n3XRAmfHQ5k_A19vaMkbnuQ2CO-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190531003615.GA25442@hugin2.pdp8online.com>

On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 09:21:43PM -0700, Marc Howard wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I fired up the 8/A tonight and the TU56's are failing diags.  I want to
> format a tape for scratch use but I can't find the MAINDEC that does this
> (along with flipping up the backplane switch.
> 
> Can someone refresh me on the proceedure?
> 

td8e_format.bin in here will work.
http://www.pdp8online.com/ftp/images/paper_tape/

Manual here
http://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/query_docs/view.pl?id=55

UNIT? 0
FORMAT? MARK
0201 WORDS,2702 BLOCKS.OK?[YES OR NO]
YES
SET SWITCH TO WTM


From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com  Thu May 30 22:56:00 2019
From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 04:56:00 +0100
Subject: DEC R80 HDA details
In-Reply-To: <CAM4zSsXW_c1xqE-FN2tQ7CiWdNpJtaBwD2KaZphMAqyADES=Lg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM4zSsXG48-Ttb4VxjhYOFbWkrPRh5qA9Co0Z-yrAOhSGpYArg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsU8uK6U7PNa9ysKUNRYc4Q4hGUO4dT4gMXbPkqfiSgYoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsX1=dx=EWtn2TLc0uh1n_JC5XhH93tYNC6CDpMNO8a7zA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsXpeWg0+tcP4AKG5xA3hsYDQ3MdiY-5cSFAH6c-B3himw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsVxCHnwmDfLMmNgp83dOp0vnAb2prQBOtBWsj+3387BCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsWYhrEPcz+nR7UyYofK-TqkOg1QV_ESgLu0TJCpzCYK6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsUrEEv712C0m65qOWxveYjhYfLroATMvHJV_ejWuRHVHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsXLS3EaPD7yJD_CCjp6uoNoMH=VzzS=4qr3hBTTq-4rUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsWQ-WCMDBke+Q+gFi41Fs+JhOAVsO2zUmzAOHd3Hs5f8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsXW_c1xqE-FN2tQ7CiWdNpJtaBwD2KaZphMAqyADES=Lg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHkUCCwSKXXt=zQj=5rrUeH4vmZ4F8LAXBdCUv9UCKXZfNqiOQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 8:20 PM shadoooo via cctech
<cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Hello,
> I'm in the process of cleaning and hopefully restore to operation of a DEC
> R80.
> The unit has some minor sign of corrosion, however it's VERY dirty, even
> inside the hood.
> The filters are obviously to be removed and replaced, as they are
> disintegrating.
> Also foam parts between the boards must be replaced.
> Aside from obvious parts, there's something that should be replaced /
> cleaned inside the HDA (foams, filters or rubbers), which could damage the
> disk permanently in case it's turned on after decades if not "cured" before?
> Anybody has some good pictures of the HDA inside, after cover removal?

The HDA was never intended to be dismantled in the field, and I think that
dismanrling it outside a clean room would probably do a lot more harm than
good.


I read somewhere that these HDAs were assembled in a rather odd way.
The spindle and platters was placed in the bearing in the lower half
of the casing, then the top casing fitted and bolted down. Then the
positioned/heads was inserted from the front and fixed with screws on
the top and bottom. The cables were then plugged into the preamplifier
PCB [1], the front cover fitted and held on with the clips round the edge.

[1] I feel DEC got one thing wrong here. The preamplifier ICs are inside
the HDA and thus can't be replaced. On some other drives (Micropolis,
for example) the ICs are in sockets on the outside face of the PCB so
you can flick them out and replace them without needing a clean room.

What I have never managed to find out is how they slid the heads over
the platters without scraping the surfaces. Was there a special spreader
'comb' tool? There's not much space to insert one.


It's worth looking at the printsets for the RA80, RA81 and RA82 as well. The
HDAs are different in the different models of drive but are mechnically very
similar. One of the printsets has rather more information than the others (I
forget which).

-tony

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Fri May 31 00:39:00 2019
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 22:39:00 -0700
Subject: Process accounting - did anyone ever use it?
In-Reply-To: <1589796856.17819211.1559238696341.JavaMail.zimbra@tds.net>
References: <5e87cc78-b8a4-4715-0c70-2550861f394c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1589796856.17819211.1559238696341.JavaMail.zimbra@tds.net>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwL-fUXRfHh1w6+1e+oddwrh9trbO9itpXmy_49xMH5EEQ@mail.gmail.com>

re: the last paragraph about "Cliff Stole" (actually Clifford Stoll)
and accounting discrepancies:

https://alumni.berkeley.edu/california-magazine/spring-2016-war-stories/how-berkeley-eccentric-beat-russians-and-then-made

?It was a 75-cent accounting error in the computer usage accounts,?
says Stoll, who looked?and still looks?like he stepped straight off
the pages of The Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers. ?I traced the error to
an unauthorized user who had used about nine seconds and not paid for
it.? Stoll assumed the trespasser was a Cal undergraduate doing it on
a lark, ?just some kid on campus who was yanking my chain.?

Fascinated by the challenge of identifying the intruder, he spent the
next ten months trying to solve the puzzle, often sleeping on a cot at
the lab instead of going home, because whoever it was tended to log on
late at night. ?It was like a piece of yarn dangling from a sweater,?
he says. ?You keep pulling on it and discovering that the yarn never
ends. The sweater keeps unraveling until all you end up with is a
mountain of tangles.?

On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 9:55 PM bobh--- via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Not sure of the reference in the last paragraph, but I know a company that processes seafood; clams, lobster, scallops, etc. They track every process so they know exactly what it cost to produce each product that they sell. The General Ledger had over 1,000 accounts.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Grant Taylor via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> To: "cctalk mailing list" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2019 1:30:51 PM
> Subject: Process accounting - did anyone ever use it?
>
> (Credit the Quotas thread for prompting this.)
>
> Did anyone ever use process accounting?  Did they actually bill
> departments (funny money)?
>
> I was always intrigued by process accounting, but never had a use for it
> myself.
>
> I guess I can thank process accounting for causing the discrepancy that
> Cliff Stole tracked down that became The Cuckoo's Egg.  :-)
>
>
>
> --
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die

From imp at bsdimp.com  Fri May 31 00:57:07 2019
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 23:57:07 -0600
Subject: Process accounting - did anyone ever use it?
In-Reply-To: <5e87cc78-b8a4-4715-0c70-2550861f394c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <5e87cc78-b8a4-4715-0c70-2550861f394c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfocURCMR1f8b55Mj7sDNzz1vVGxOc+3viy4Umh4Qm4PYA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 11:30 AM Grant Taylor via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> (Credit the Quotas thread for prompting this.)
>
> Did anyone ever use process accounting?  Did they actually bill
> departments (funny money)?
>
> I was always intrigued by process accounting, but never had a use for it
> myself.
>
> I guess I can thank process accounting for causing the discrepancy that
> Cliff Stole tracked down that became The Cuckoo's Egg.  :-)
>

I had it enabled on my FreeBSD boxes and got monthly usage stats. I did it
to make sure that there were no weird users with time, and that the typical
usage was "what I expected". Never detected anything amiss with this, and
at some point I retired all those old boxes and with them the monthly
reporting email.

Warner

From healyzh at avanthar.com  Fri May 31 08:32:05 2019
From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 06:32:05 -0700
Subject: Process accounting - did anyone ever use it?
In-Reply-To: <CANV78LQd1hd1z0jBHibyCvWJ5bd93nwz=f5QsB36S4Y0Pu4jqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5e87cc78-b8a4-4715-0c70-2550861f394c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CANV78LQd1hd1z0jBHibyCvWJ5bd93nwz=f5QsB36S4Y0Pu4jqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7BB033BA-5497-49B0-AEF0-42C609A0CFE9@avanthar.com>


> On May 30, 2019, at 2:08 PM, Charles Anthony via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 10:31 AM Grant Taylor via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
>> (Credit the Quotas thread for prompting this.)
>> 
>> Did anyone ever use process accounting?  Did they actually bill
>> departments (funny money)?
>> 
>> 
> I am not billed for it, but the data is collected:
> 
> logout
> 
> CAnthony.User logged out 05/30/19  1705.9 edt Thu
> CPU usage 19 sec, memory usage 2.4 units, cost $1.33.
> hangup
> Multics has disconnected you
> 
> -- Charles

I?d get largely the same when logging out of GCOS-8.  I?ve rather chuckled at some of the ?bills? that I?ve racked up on my Multics System.

Zane



From elson at pico-systems.com  Fri May 31 10:04:14 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 10:04:14 -0500
Subject: Process accounting - did anyone ever use it?
In-Reply-To: <1589796856.17819211.1559238696341.JavaMail.zimbra@tds.net>
References: <5e87cc78-b8a4-4715-0c70-2550861f394c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1589796856.17819211.1559238696341.JavaMail.zimbra@tds.net>
Message-ID: <5CF1426E.9060508@pico-systems.com>

From: "Grant Taylor via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> To: 
"cctalk mailing list" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2019 1:30:51 PM
Subject: Process accounting - did anyone ever use it?

 >(Credit the Quotas thread for prompting this.)
 >Did anyone ever use process accounting? Did they actually 
bill departments
 >(funny money)? I was always intrigued by process 
accounting, but never had a use
 >for it myself. I guess I can thank process accounting for 
causing the discrepancy
 >that Cliff Stole tracked down that became The Cuckoo's 
Egg. :-)
Not exactly sure what you are asking about, but if you mean 
run time accounting to bill users, then we did this on one 
system I managed. We depended on the other department's 
contributions to fund the total expenses of the machine 
(purchase price plus software and hardware maintenance 
contracts), which were pretty expensive on a VAX 11/780.
Somewhere, deep in the bowels of the University's accounting 
department, they transferred several thousand $ of "real 
money" per month to our account.  The bill varied depending 
on how much CPU time they used.  I wrote some DCL scripts to 
roll over the accounting file daily, and then break it down 
by user and compute a $ amount based on a formula that had 
been agreed upon.

It is Clifford Stoll, IIRC.

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Fri May 31 10:09:46 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 10:09:46 -0500
Subject: DEC R80 HDA details
In-Reply-To: <CAM4zSsXW_c1xqE-FN2tQ7CiWdNpJtaBwD2KaZphMAqyADES=Lg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM4zSsXG48-Ttb4VxjhYOFbWkrPRh5qA9Co0Z-yrAOhSGpYArg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsU8uK6U7PNa9ysKUNRYc4Q4hGUO4dT4gMXbPkqfiSgYoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsX1=dx=EWtn2TLc0uh1n_JC5XhH93tYNC6CDpMNO8a7zA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsXpeWg0+tcP4AKG5xA3hsYDQ3MdiY-5cSFAH6c-B3himw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsVxCHnwmDfLMmNgp83dOp0vnAb2prQBOtBWsj+3387BCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsWYhrEPcz+nR7UyYofK-TqkOg1QV_ESgLu0TJCpzCYK6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsUrEEv712C0m65qOWxveYjhYfLroATMvHJV_ejWuRHVHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsXLS3EaPD7yJD_CCjp6uoNoMH=VzzS=4qr3hBTTq-4rUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsWQ-WCMDBke+Q+gFi41Fs+JhOAVsO2zUmzAOHd3Hs5f8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsXW_c1xqE-FN2tQ7CiWdNpJtaBwD2KaZphMAqyADES=Lg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5CF143BA.2060602@pico-systems.com>

On 05/30/2019 02:20 PM, shadoooo via cctalk wrote:
> Hello,
> I'm in the process of cleaning and hopefully restore to operation of a DEC
> R80.
> The unit has some minor sign of corrosion, however it's VERY dirty, even
> inside the hood.
> The filters are obviously to be removed and replaced, as they are
> disintegrating.
> Also foam parts between the boards must be replaced.
> Aside from obvious parts, there's something that should be replaced /
> cleaned inside the HDA (foams, filters or rubbers), which could damage the
> disk permanently in case it's turned on after decades if not "cured" before?
> Anybody has some good pictures of the HDA inside, after cover removal?
>
I don't think this is a field procedure.  Definitely, way 
back around 1980 or so, they had some bum adhesive that held 
the internal filter in the RA80 and RA82 HDAs, as I recall, 
and they had to replace all HDAs in the field, over time.  
They had some scheme where the oldest HDAs were replaced 
first, as the adhesive degraded over time, so they knew they 
had a couple years since new before the problem would 
occur.  It was a BIG expense for DEC.

Presumably, all of these HDAs (that were under maintenance 
contract) that had the bad adhesive in them were replaced 
years ago.  As far as I remember, there IS no removable 
cover on those HDAs, they were hermetically sealed except 
for a tiny, filtered, pressure relief vent.
I think the procedure to update those HDAs was a pretty 
involved disassembly.


Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Fri May 31 10:12:04 2019
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 10:12:04 -0500
Subject: DEC R80 HDA details
In-Reply-To: <CAHkUCCwSKXXt=zQj=5rrUeH4vmZ4F8LAXBdCUv9UCKXZfNqiOQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM4zSsXG48-Ttb4VxjhYOFbWkrPRh5qA9Co0Z-yrAOhSGpYArg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsU8uK6U7PNa9ysKUNRYc4Q4hGUO4dT4gMXbPkqfiSgYoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsX1=dx=EWtn2TLc0uh1n_JC5XhH93tYNC6CDpMNO8a7zA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsXpeWg0+tcP4AKG5xA3hsYDQ3MdiY-5cSFAH6c-B3himw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsVxCHnwmDfLMmNgp83dOp0vnAb2prQBOtBWsj+3387BCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsWYhrEPcz+nR7UyYofK-TqkOg1QV_ESgLu0TJCpzCYK6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsUrEEv712C0m65qOWxveYjhYfLroATMvHJV_ejWuRHVHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsXLS3EaPD7yJD_CCjp6uoNoMH=VzzS=4qr3hBTTq-4rUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsWQ-WCMDBke+Q+gFi41Fs+JhOAVsO2zUmzAOHd3Hs5f8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsXW_c1xqE-FN2tQ7CiWdNpJtaBwD2KaZphMAqyADES=Lg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHkUCCwSKXXt=zQj=5rrUeH4vmZ4F8LAXBdCUv9UCKXZfNqiOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5CF14444.4050804@pico-systems.com>

On 05/30/2019 10:56 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
> [1] I feel DEC got one thing wrong here. The preamplifier 
> ICs are inside the HDA and thus can't be replaced.
This was pretty common practice in a number of drives from 
that period.  Now, it is common for the read amps to be on 
the individual hear arms, to get them closer to the heads.

Jon

From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com  Fri May 31 10:46:43 2019
From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 16:46:43 +0100
Subject: DEC R80 HDA details
In-Reply-To: <5CF14444.4050804@pico-systems.com>
References: <CAM4zSsXG48-Ttb4VxjhYOFbWkrPRh5qA9Co0Z-yrAOhSGpYArg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsU8uK6U7PNa9ysKUNRYc4Q4hGUO4dT4gMXbPkqfiSgYoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsX1=dx=EWtn2TLc0uh1n_JC5XhH93tYNC6CDpMNO8a7zA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsXpeWg0+tcP4AKG5xA3hsYDQ3MdiY-5cSFAH6c-B3himw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsVxCHnwmDfLMmNgp83dOp0vnAb2prQBOtBWsj+3387BCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsWYhrEPcz+nR7UyYofK-TqkOg1QV_ESgLu0TJCpzCYK6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsUrEEv712C0m65qOWxveYjhYfLroATMvHJV_ejWuRHVHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsXLS3EaPD7yJD_CCjp6uoNoMH=VzzS=4qr3hBTTq-4rUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsWQ-WCMDBke+Q+gFi41Fs+JhOAVsO2zUmzAOHd3Hs5f8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsXW_c1xqE-FN2tQ7CiWdNpJtaBwD2KaZphMAqyADES=Lg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHkUCCwSKXXt=zQj=5rrUeH4vmZ4F8LAXBdCUv9UCKXZfNqiOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5CF14444.4050804@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <CAHkUCCw5acqL46+fF-GD=kmvDucb9u=zPhedw3xvsUGRANoHBw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 4:12 PM Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:
>
> On 05/30/2019 10:56 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
> > [1] I feel DEC got one thing wrong here. The preamplifier
> > ICs are inside the HDA and thus can't be replaced.
> This was pretty common practice in a number of drives from
> that period.  Now, it is common for the read amps to be on
> the individual hear arms, to get them closer to the heads.

Sure, if you _need_ them close to the heads (as you probably do
with the smaller amplitude, higher frequency signals in modern
drives).

But in the R80, the preamplifier ICs are on the PCB that is fixed to
the inside of the front cover (the transparent plastic part) of the HDA.
The heads and positioner coil are plugged into connectors on the
inside face of the PCB, the cables for the positioner drive, servo
head output and r/w PCB areo n the outside face. The ICs are also
on the inside face meaning they can't be field-replaced (although a
schematic of this PCB is in the printset).

The Micropolis 1200 series (8" winchester drives) have a similar idea
with the PCB mounted on the HDA But here the ICs are in sockets on
the outside, meaning they can be replaced without letting any dust, etc
into the HDA.

-tony


>
> Jon

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Fri May 31 10:58:38 2019
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 09:58:38 -0600
Subject: Process accounting - did anyone ever use it?
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfocURCMR1f8b55Mj7sDNzz1vVGxOc+3viy4Umh4Qm4PYA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5e87cc78-b8a4-4715-0c70-2550861f394c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CANCZdfocURCMR1f8b55Mj7sDNzz1vVGxOc+3viy4Umh4Qm4PYA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16a53635-1dc3-297b-3c56-8923705833ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 5/30/19 11:57 PM, Warner Losh wrote:
> I had it enabled on my FreeBSD boxes and got monthly usage stats. I did 
> it to make sure that there were no weird users with time, and that the 
> typical usage was "what I expected". Never detected anything amiss with 
> this, and at some point I retired all those old boxes and with them the 
> monthly reporting email.

*nod*

This use case seems similar to what I did with disk quotas, or at least 
why.  Sort of a safety measure / monitoring.  Not actually using it for 
(internal funny money) billing purposes.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Fri May 31 13:04:45 2019
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 19:04:45 +0100
Subject: 11/93 Rebuild - SCSI HD now boots RT11
Message-ID: <ab18c339-4c9c-3c7b-2026-7849a0a2082c@btinternet.com>

Hi

 ??? Well I now have a bootable SCSI drive on my 11/93. Its not RSTS/E 
(yet) but it is RT 11 and reliable.

Its a bit baseline but it runs.

So next up was to see if we could get the RQDX3 to co-exist with the 
SCSI controller.

I switched the base address to 160336 and it does not stop the SCSI 
drive booting as DU0.

Had the RQDX3 been on the normal base address I think you would get the 
HD as DU0 and the two halves of an RX50 as the next two drives.

But what happens to the RX50's when you move the RQDX3 to 160336 ?

Rod



-- 



From allisonportable at gmail.com  Fri May 31 13:40:47 2019
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 14:40:47 -0400
Subject: 11/93 Rebuild - SCSI HD now boots RT11
In-Reply-To: <ab18c339-4c9c-3c7b-2026-7849a0a2082c@btinternet.com>
References: <ab18c339-4c9c-3c7b-2026-7849a0a2082c@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <a21d86c6-5e31-13be-7eef-60766753eb46@gmail.com>

On 05/31/2019 02:04 PM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote:
> Hi
> 
> ??? Well I now have a bootable SCSI drive on my 11/93. Its not RSTS/E
> (yet) but it is RT 11 and reliable.
> 
> Its a bit baseline but it runs.
> 
> So next up was to see if we could get the RQDX3 to co-exist with the
> SCSI controller.
> 
> I switched the base address to 160336 and it does not stop the SCSI
> drive booting as DU0.
> 
> Had the RQDX3 been on the normal base address I think you would get the
> HD as DU0 and the two halves of an RX50 as the next two drives.
> 
> But what happens to the RX50's when you move the RQDX3 to 160336 ?
> 
> Rod
> 
> 
> 
Under RT-11 you have to do a SET CSR and sometimes Vector when you move
a device off the default.  Its how I could have two DD (tu58) on teo
serial ports.  Same for RX02, RL02, with RQDX3 (with RD52 and RX33)
where the RQDX was set to a nonstandard address.

As I remember the CMD controller is nominally the same as RQDX3 for the
same address. so likely RQDX at the secondary address (see the manual)
will be treated well if not use the set utility.  It  only comes to mind
as I had two RQDX3s in one machine to make RD52 to RD52 copies at one
point.  Also my BA123 uVAX-II has both CMD SCSI controller (Rz56 x2) and
RQDX3 for RD52 wher the RD52 was the swap and page disk (QD540s are fast
but only 31mb) and by having independent channels helped with system
performance.

RSTS/E the conventions for non standard device addresses are different
but there is a mechanism for addressing that.  I've not used that.

Any of the PDP11 unix again there is a way but the process varies with
version and is unknown to me.  I tried once to get V^ to talk to more
than RL02.

In the end first make sure you using the suggested secondary controller
address.  Then use the OS dependent tools for installing additional drives.

Allison

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Fri May 31 13:44:39 2019
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 12:44:39 -0600
Subject: Process accounting - did anyone ever use it?
In-Reply-To: <7BB033BA-5497-49B0-AEF0-42C609A0CFE9@avanthar.com>
References: <5e87cc78-b8a4-4715-0c70-2550861f394c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CANV78LQd1hd1z0jBHibyCvWJ5bd93nwz=f5QsB36S4Y0Pu4jqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7BB033BA-5497-49B0-AEF0-42C609A0CFE9@avanthar.com>
Message-ID: <ead77b08-0d2b-c856-d31d-5a63f08dbf45@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 5/31/2019 7:32 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> On May 30, 2019, at 2:08 PM, Charles Anthony via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 10:31 AM Grant Taylor via cctalk <
>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>>> (Credit the Quotas thread for prompting this.)
>>>
>>> Did anyone ever use process accounting?  Did they actually bill
>>> departments (funny money)?
>>>
>>>
>> I am not billed for it, but the data is collected:
>>
>> logout
>>
>> CAnthony.User logged out 05/30/19  1705.9 edt Thu
>> CPU usage 19 sec, memory usage 2.4 units, cost $1.33.
>> hangup
>> Multics has disconnected you
>>
>> -- Charles
> 
> I?d get largely the same when logging out of GCOS-8.  I?ve rather chuckled at some of the ?bills? that I?ve racked up on my Multics System.
> 
> Zane
I wonder what the real time on the system was for 19 seconds?
Was there a I/O charge as well on the system?
Is that a real machine or a emulation you are running?
Ben.



From jsw at ieee.org  Fri May 31 14:09:15 2019
From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 14:09:15 -0500
Subject: 11/93 Rebuild - SCSI HD now boots RT11
In-Reply-To: <ab18c339-4c9c-3c7b-2026-7849a0a2082c@btinternet.com>
References: <ab18c339-4c9c-3c7b-2026-7849a0a2082c@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <06167ce3-f881-5346-7465-f9f86a7c09c3@ieee.org>

On 5/31/19 1:04 PM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote:
> Hi
>
> ??? Well I now have a bootable SCSI drive on my 11/93. Its not RSTS/E 
> (yet) but it is RT 11 and reliable.
>
> Its a bit baseline but it runs.
>
> So next up was to see if we could get the RQDX3 to co-exist with the 
> SCSI controller.
>
> I switched the base address to 160336 and it does not stop the SCSI 
> drive booting as DU0.
>
> Had the RQDX3 been on the normal base address I think you would get 
> the HD as DU0 and the two halves of an RX50 as the next two drives.
>
> But what happens to the RX50's when you move the RQDX3 to 160336 ?
>
> Rod
>

In RT11 the mapping of the controllers (port), drives (unit) and 
partitions is stored in the device handler of the disk you bootstrap 
from.? You can have customize different configurations on each of your 
SCSI drives and the RQDX3 HD.? You have to make sure that the disk being 
booted has a valid mapping for the SY disk on its handler (DU.SYS or 
DUX.SYS).? There are no checks on the "SET DU" commands to ensure the 
resulting configuration is bootable.

Check out the RT-11 Device Handlers Manual? (section 2.3 in the Aug91 
version).

 ? Jerry




From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Fri May 31 14:27:48 2019
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 20:27:48 +0100
Subject: 11/93 Rebuild - SCSI HD now boots RT11
In-Reply-To: <a21d86c6-5e31-13be-7eef-60766753eb46@gmail.com>
References: <ab18c339-4c9c-3c7b-2026-7849a0a2082c@btinternet.com>
 <a21d86c6-5e31-13be-7eef-60766753eb46@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1699935f-8ba6-1829-06a4-16e50168557a@btinternet.com>


On 31/05/2019 19:40, allison via cctalk wrote:
> On 05/31/2019 02:04 PM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>>  ??? Well I now have a bootable SCSI drive on my 11/93. Its not RSTS/E
>> (yet) but it is RT 11 and reliable.
>>
>> Its a bit baseline but it runs.
>>
>> So next up was to see if we could get the RQDX3 to co-exist with the
>> SCSI controller.
>>
>> I switched the base address to 160336 and it does not stop the SCSI
>> drive booting as DU0.
>>
>> Had the RQDX3 been on the normal base address I think you would get the
>> HD as DU0 and the two halves of an RX50 as the next two drives.
>>
>> But what happens to the RX50's when you move the RQDX3 to 160336 ?
>>
>> Rod
>>
>>
>>
> Under RT-11 you have to do a SET CSR and sometimes Vector when you move
> a device off the default.  Its how I could have two DD (tu58) on teo
> serial ports.  Same for RX02, RL02, with RQDX3 (with RD52 and RX33)
> where the RQDX was set to a nonstandard address.
>
> As I remember the CMD controller is nominally the same as RQDX3 for the
> same address. so likely RQDX at the secondary address (see the manual)
> will be treated well if not use the set utility.  It  only comes to mind
> as I had two RQDX3s in one machine to make RD52 to RD52 copies at one
> point.  Also my BA123 uVAX-II has both CMD SCSI controller (Rz56 x2) and
> RQDX3 for RD52 wher the RD52 was the swap and page disk (QD540s are fast
> but only 31mb) and by having independent channels helped with system
> performance.
>
> RSTS/E the conventions for non standard device addresses are different
> but there is a mechanism for addressing that.  I've not used that.
>
> Any of the PDP11 unix again there is a way but the process varies with
> version and is unknown to me.  I tried once to get V^ to talk to more
> than RL02.
>
> In the end first make sure you using the suggested secondary controller
> address.  Then use the OS dependent tools for installing additional drives.
>
> Allison

Hi
    OK lets see if I can understand whats going on.

1. The CQD sits at the normal 17772150 base address
2. RQDX3 is at the alternate 17760334 base address.
3. The map function in the 11/93 monitor sees both
4. The SCSI drive boots RT11 with the RQDX3 in place.
5. So if I connect an RX50 through the cable splitter as normal then what device(s) is(are) the RX50
Rod


--

  


From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com  Fri May 31 14:32:59 2019
From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 12:32:59 -0700
Subject: Process accounting - did anyone ever use it?
In-Reply-To: <ead77b08-0d2b-c856-d31d-5a63f08dbf45@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <5e87cc78-b8a4-4715-0c70-2550861f394c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CANV78LQd1hd1z0jBHibyCvWJ5bd93nwz=f5QsB36S4Y0Pu4jqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7BB033BA-5497-49B0-AEF0-42C609A0CFE9@avanthar.com>
 <ead77b08-0d2b-c856-d31d-5a63f08dbf45@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <CANV78LS9=9Uz4_N0gsReFXEqT_Ujs8X-hatNaMsk8cRnx_Q_VQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 11:44 AM ben via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

>
> >> I am not billed for it, but the data is collected:
> >>
> >> logout
> >>
> >> CAnthony.User logged out 05/30/19  1705.9 edt Thu
> >> CPU usage 19 sec, memory usage 2.4 units, cost $1.33.
> >> hangup
> >> Multics has disconnected you
> >>
> >> -- Charles
> >
> > I?d get largely the same when logging out of GCOS-8.  I?ve rather
> chuckled at some of the ?bills? that I?ve racked up on my Multics System.
> >
> > Zane
> I wonder what the real time on the system was for 19 seconds?
> Was there a I/O charge as well on the system?
> Is that a real machine or a emulation you are running?
> Ben.
>
> Emulator.  19 seconds wall clock time; the emulated CPU is 6-8x the h/w.

They billed for every thing: connect time, disk storage:



Disk usage for 12/31/00  1900.0 est Mon to 12/25/16  1304.4 est Sun



  s-qta   s-use       s-charge   d-qta   d-use       d-charge   lev path

------- ------- -------------- ------- ------- -------------- -----
------------------------



229143   47192  $7,662,137.94  204933     733    $116,590.16     0 >

   4000    1157    $175,013.75       0      20                    1
>system_control_1

   1000     504     $10,972.03       0       2                    2
>system_control_1>syserr_log

    400     263     $43,520.67       0       3                    1
>system_library_obsolete

   6000    2823    $476,645.36    1000      30      $4,780.34     1
>system_library_standard

   6000    2939    $486,339.00       0       2                    1
>system_library_tandd

   6000    2612    $458,486.06    1000      27      $4,442.88     1
>system_library_tools

  10000    6516    $766,673.19    1000      29      $3,313.04     1
>system_library_unbundled

   1890       0                   3690       1        $160.69     1
>user_dir_dir

   3000     295      $5,586.83    5000      23      $2,603.30     2
>user_dir_dir>SysAdmin

   2000    1947    $148,208.64       0      12                    3
      SysAdmin>admin

   5000      13      $2,048.54    5000       9      $1,446.25     2
      SysDaemon

   1000       2        $321.39    1000       2        $321.39     2
      Daemon

    100       0                    100       2        $321.39     2
      Operator

     10       0                     10       2        $321.39     2
      Terminals

   5000       0                   5000       3        $327.71     2
      HFED

   1000     451     $93,884.64     100      21      $3,326.68     2
      SysEng

   1000      71        $448.49     100       1        $160.69     2
      Guest

   1500      15        $965.93    2000       7        $643.37     1
>daemon_dir_dir

    500       0                      0       1                    2
>daemon_dir_dir>cards

   5000      33      $4,994.39    5000       3        $482.08     1 >site

   1000       0                   1000       1        $160.69     1
>system_library_auth_maint

------- ------- -------------- ------- ------- -------------- -----
------------------------



290543   66833 $10,336,246.50  235933     934    $139,402.04       SUBTOTALS



                                526476   67767 $10,475,648.50       TOTALS
(SEGMENTS + DIRECTORIES)

From classiccmp at crash.com  Fri May 31 15:03:42 2019
From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 13:03:42 -0700
Subject: Process accounting - did anyone ever use it?
In-Reply-To: <16a53635-1dc3-297b-3c56-8923705833ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <5e87cc78-b8a4-4715-0c70-2550861f394c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CANCZdfocURCMR1f8b55Mj7sDNzz1vVGxOc+3viy4Umh4Qm4PYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <16a53635-1dc3-297b-3c56-8923705833ee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <c368e74f-c43d-390b-52d1-523d461e0acd@crash.com>

On 05/31/2019 08:58, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> On 5/30/19 11:57 PM, Warner Losh wrote:
>> I had it enabled on my FreeBSD boxes and got monthly usage stats. I 
>> did it to make sure that there were no weird users with time, and that 
>> the typical usage was "what I expected". Never detected anything amiss 
>> with this, and at some point I retired all those old boxes and with 
>> them the monthly reporting email.
> 
> This use case seems similar to what I did with disk quotas, or at least 
> why.? Sort of a safety measure / monitoring.? Not actually using it for 
> (internal funny money) billing purposes.

I believe I've heard about a couple instances where PA was used for 
health checks, load distribution, etc for "web-scale" applications on 
thousands of servers running Linux. ISTR in one case it was only enabled 
when needed for tracking down an issue? But this is hearsay, I'm not 
involved in any of the above projects/apps.

But no, not for chargeback so far as I know. I only saw that sort of use 
in academia similar to what others have mentioned - departmental 
budgeting, grant accounting, etc.

--S.

From allisonportable at gmail.com  Fri May 31 15:20:47 2019
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 16:20:47 -0400
Subject: 11/93 Rebuild - SCSI HD now boots RT11
In-Reply-To: <1699935f-8ba6-1829-06a4-16e50168557a@btinternet.com>
References: <ab18c339-4c9c-3c7b-2026-7849a0a2082c@btinternet.com>
 <a21d86c6-5e31-13be-7eef-60766753eb46@gmail.com>
 <1699935f-8ba6-1829-06a4-16e50168557a@btinternet.com>
Message-ID: <b05bc549-c4f4-9151-ce61-6f91e024aea8@gmail.com>

On 05/31/2019 03:27 PM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote:
> 
> On 31/05/2019 19:40, allison via cctalk wrote:
>> On 05/31/2019 02:04 PM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote:
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> ???? Well I now have a bootable SCSI drive on my 11/93. Its not RSTS/E
>>> (yet) but it is RT 11 and reliable.
>>>
>>> Its a bit baseline but it runs.
>>>
>>> So next up was to see if we could get the RQDX3 to co-exist with the
>>> SCSI controller.
>>>
>>> I switched the base address to 160336 and it does not stop the SCSI
>>> drive booting as DU0.
>>>
>>> Had the RQDX3 been on the normal base address I think you would get the
>>> HD as DU0 and the two halves of an RX50 as the next two drives.
>>>
>>> But what happens to the RX50's when you move the RQDX3 to 160336 ?
>>>
>>> Rod
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Under RT-11 you have to do a SET CSR and sometimes Vector when you move
>> a device off the default.? Its how I could have two DD (tu58) on teo
>> serial ports.? Same for RX02, RL02, with RQDX3 (with RD52 and RX33)
>> where the RQDX was set to a nonstandard address.
>>
>> As I remember the CMD controller is nominally the same as RQDX3 for the
>> same address. so likely RQDX at the secondary address (see the manual)
>> will be treated well if not use the set utility.? It? only comes to mind
>> as I had two RQDX3s in one machine to make RD52 to RD52 copies at one
>> point.? Also my BA123 uVAX-II has both CMD SCSI controller (Rz56 x2) and
>> RQDX3 for RD52 wher the RD52 was the swap and page disk (QD540s are fast
>> but only 31mb) and by having independent channels helped with system
>> performance.
>>
>> RSTS/E the conventions for non standard device addresses are different
>> but there is a mechanism for addressing that.? I've not used that.
>>
>> Any of the PDP11 unix again there is a way but the process varies with
>> version and is unknown to me.? I tried once to get V^ to talk to more
>> than RL02.
>>
>> In the end first make sure you using the suggested secondary controller
>> address.? Then use the OS dependent tools for installing additional
>> drives.
>>
>> Allison
> 
> Hi
> ?? OK lets see if I can understand whats going on.
> 
> 1. The CQD sits at the normal 17772150 base address
> 2. RQDX3 is at the alternate 17760334 base address.

OK good address and non interfering.

> 3. The map function in the 11/93 monitor sees both
> 4. The SCSI drive boots RT11 with the RQDX3 in place.
OK that means the RQDX is not causing issues but likely the
OS does not see it as the DU/DUX driver is not configured to
see that address and the 11/93 map function does not communicate
with the OS.  So unless the OS is told that RQDX3 is additional
334Q address its not even going to bother with it or by it.

> 5. So if I connect an RX50 through the cable splitter as normal then
> what device(s) is(are) the RX50

No idea, until you set the du1 (the other is du0 I memory hasn't
croaked) its a non sequitur.

So at the prompt >set du1 CSR=17760334<  or something along those
lines (syntax) will connect the controller to the OS.  At this
point since I've not done it in a decade you may need to init
the device and media, copy stuff to it then set the boot device.

> Rod

Beats me!  Never got a 11/93.  Latest Qbus-11 I have is a J11 -11/73
the smaller dual width card (no PMI).  Never seen the map function.

However having said that, the CPU may know what disks are there but
once the boot operating gets to the disk resident boot then the OS
has to be up to it meaning all the initial setups in place or if the
device was bootable a script (or manual entry) that loads and set up
everything.  That much is certain for RT-11.  For example I run RT11XM
from VM: [memory disk], however first you have to init VM: and put stuff
there and set it up so you can boot it.  So happens I do that from DD
(tu58 tape) but I've done it from RX02, RL02, and DU.

For RSTS and others the game is different but you first muct boot from a
device already know to the copy of the OS on a device that the system
knows how to boot from.

One thing that is consistent is that the boot for any device is often
the same in that it calls for the device to access the bootable track
and sector or base LBA, the MSCP devices [cmd or RQDXn] have their own
thing where the controller knows the place for a given media it can use.
In that case the system boot in rom is a message to "give me the boot
block at xxxxxx ram address" and transfers to that.

Allison

From abacos_98 at yahoo.com  Fri May 31 16:36:37 2019
From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 21:36:37 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Uniprobe
References: <269764965.1533522.1559338597268.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <269764965.1533522.1559338597268@mail.yahoo.com>

If anybody is interested in building? Jorge Hoppe's Uniprobe, I have some PCB's available. I made a few extra to keep the price down. Price is $40 ea shipped in the CONUS. These have Silver fingers rather than Gold but should still hold up well. Build information is on Retrocomp. 

Brian.

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Fri May 31 18:47:38 2019
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 19:47:38 -0400
Subject: 11/93 Rebuild - SCSI HD now boots RT11
In-Reply-To: <a21d86c6-5e31-13be-7eef-60766753eb46@gmail.com>
References: <ab18c339-4c9c-3c7b-2026-7849a0a2082c@btinternet.com>
 <a21d86c6-5e31-13be-7eef-60766753eb46@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2FEC9E3C-6D8D-4CFD-89D5-CCF553C27E74@comcast.net>



> On May 31, 2019, at 2:40 PM, allison via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On 05/31/2019 02:04 PM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>>     Well I now have a bootable SCSI drive on my 11/93. Its not RSTS/E
>> (yet) but it is RT 11 and reliable.
>> 
>> Its a bit baseline but it runs.
>> 
>> So next up was to see if we could get the RQDX3 to co-exist with the
>> SCSI controller.
>> 
>> I switched the base address to 160336 and it does not stop the SCSI
>> drive booting as DU0.
>> 
>> Had the RQDX3 been on the normal base address I think you would get the
>> HD as DU0 and the two halves of an RX50 as the next two drives.
>> 
>> But what happens to the RX50's when you move the RQDX3 to 160336 ?
>> 
>> Rod
>> 
>> 
>> 
> Under RT-11 ...
> 
> RSTS/E the conventions for non standard device addresses are different
> but there is a mechanism for addressing that.  I've not used that.

On RSTS:

DU is one of the fairly common kinds of PDP-11 devices that has a fixed CSR assignment for the first controller, and uses floating CSRs for the others.  160336 doesn't sound like a standard float address (it isn't a multiple of the CSR size).  

RSTS will recognize devices automatically if they have the standard CSR (fixed or float).  Anything else you have to give it the CSR address: boot it, at the "Start timesharing" prompt say "NO" then you're in the INIT program.  Option "HARDWARE" lets you do stuff like set non-standard CSR addresses; it will also show the devices it has found.

MSCP devices have programmable vectors so that's not a concern, RSTS will assign a vector.

For most RSTS disks, only one controller is supported.  For MSCP, it supports up to four.  But unlike VMS, RSTS refers to disks by device type and unit number (such as "DU2:").  So the rule for multiple MSCP controller is that the unit numbers must be distinct.  Also, they must be below 16, RSTS does not allow larger unit numbers than that.

	paul


From spectre at floodgap.com  Fri May 31 21:43:26 2019
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 19:43:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Process accounting - did anyone ever use it?
In-Reply-To: <c368e74f-c43d-390b-52d1-523d461e0acd@crash.com> from Steven M
 Jones via cctalk at "May 31, 19 01:03:42 pm"
Message-ID: <201906010243.x512hQwo16515166@floodgap.com>

> I believe I've heard about a couple instances where PA was used for 
> health checks, load distribution, etc for "web-scale" applications on 
> thousands of servers running Linux. ISTR in one case it was only enabled 
> when needed for tracking down an issue? But this is hearsay, I'm not 
> involved in any of the above projects/apps.
> 
> But no, not for chargeback so far as I know. I only saw that sort of use 
> in academia similar to what others have mentioned - departmental 
> budgeting, grant accounting, etc.

As a starving undergrad at UC San Diego in the mid 1990s, I remember charge
costs being displayed to us hoi polloi users, and we got a certain amount
of connect and compute time budgeted each week. If you exceeded that, you
got to read a book.

This was probably to discourage MUDders more than anything else, I suspect.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- "Taking advantage of the obvious performance characteristics of YELLOW!" ---

From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com  Fri May 31 22:41:44 2019
From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2019 04:41:44 +0100
Subject: DEC R80 HDA details
In-Reply-To: <5CF143BA.2060602@pico-systems.com>
References: <CAM4zSsXG48-Ttb4VxjhYOFbWkrPRh5qA9Co0Z-yrAOhSGpYArg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsU8uK6U7PNa9ysKUNRYc4Q4hGUO4dT4gMXbPkqfiSgYoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsX1=dx=EWtn2TLc0uh1n_JC5XhH93tYNC6CDpMNO8a7zA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsXpeWg0+tcP4AKG5xA3hsYDQ3MdiY-5cSFAH6c-B3himw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsVxCHnwmDfLMmNgp83dOp0vnAb2prQBOtBWsj+3387BCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsWYhrEPcz+nR7UyYofK-TqkOg1QV_ESgLu0TJCpzCYK6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsUrEEv712C0m65qOWxveYjhYfLroATMvHJV_ejWuRHVHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsXLS3EaPD7yJD_CCjp6uoNoMH=VzzS=4qr3hBTTq-4rUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsWQ-WCMDBke+Q+gFi41Fs+JhOAVsO2zUmzAOHd3Hs5f8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM4zSsXW_c1xqE-FN2tQ7CiWdNpJtaBwD2KaZphMAqyADES=Lg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5CF143BA.2060602@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <CAHkUCCz+qrBwj1tgFhzYCdLWYe1JZO-nt9j+2NFA6Ho1+J-K-A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 11:17 PM Jon Elson via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>  As far as I remember, there IS no removable
> cover on those HDAs, they were hermetically sealed except
> for a tiny, filtered, pressure relief vent.

Well, the HDA was assembled, so it can come apart again. The
RA82 printset gives rather more details of the HDA than the others,
(different HDA of course but the same idea). But I think that opening
it up outside a cleanroom will do a lot more harm than good.

> I think the procedure to update those HDAs was a pretty
> involved disassembly.

Actually, getting the whole HDA out of the drive is quite easy. It's
even in the user manual, as it is sugested that you remove the HDA
to reduce the weight of the drive if you want to rack-mount it. Basically :

Raise the logic chassis on the gas struts

Lock the heads with the lever on top of the HDA. The drive should really be
running for this to avoid scraping the heads across the disks. Then power
down (obviously!)

Lift the drive belt off the HDA pulley using the lever on the right hand side
of the drive chassis.

Unplug the cables: Two small ones on the front of the HDA (servo head output
and positioner drive) and the largest one (rear edge) of the read.write PCB
on top of the HDA.

You can remove the read.write board now, or take the HDA out with it attached.
To remove it, unplug the other 2 cables and take out the 4 fixing screws

Remove the 4 fixing nuts/washers for the HDA

Lift it up and out. You can stand it on the 'feet' moulded into the front
cover of the HDA.

-tony


>
>
> Jon

From cube1 at charter.net  Fri May 31 22:43:12 2019
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 22:43:12 -0500
Subject: 11/93 rebuild
In-Reply-To: <20190529210112.D79D618C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190529210112.D79D618C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <c294a93a-13c3-0d6b-8c41-d6e094632aa6@charter.net>

On 5/29/2019 4:01 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
> 
>     > Most of the PDP11 SCSI Controllers could build two or more PDP11 disks
>     > out of one physical device. That is what I meant with partition in this
>     > case .. There is some logical information on the device, you simply
>     > don't get the entire raw device on the pdp as you possibly think.
> 
> That's a good point, and perhaps there's no existing way to write a SCSI disk
> from a Windoze box in a way that the PDP11 SCSI controllers can grok. I don't
> know enough about how they work to answer that.
> 

Perhaps one could use Win32DiskImager to write a block level image onto
a SCSI disk, yes?  (i.e., no Windows partition, just a bunch of blocks).

JRJ

From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com  Fri May 31 23:11:36 2019
From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2019 05:11:36 +0100
Subject: 11/93 next step
Message-ID: <27e6069a-ac3d-7f73-1e1a-006b9771e2de@btinternet.com>

Hi

 ???? Well we are moving forward.

The 160336 alternate RQDX3 address and vector have been confirmed as OK 
by one of our Techno Mages.

So rather than an RX50 I'll give an RX33 whirl. A floppy disk way in 
means I can enhance the baseline RT system.

Time to dig out all of the Q-bus controllers and see what else we can add.

I have a Viking SCSI controller. That might be interesting as an 
alternative to the CQD.

I think I may have Q bus controllers for my RX01 and RX02. AKA as 'Clonk 
City'

11/93 is no end of fun. Best thing since my brother fell in the slurry 
pit 60 years ago.

Rod


-- 



From cramcram at gmail.com  Fri May 31 16:52:21 2019
From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 14:52:21 -0700
Subject: Uniprobe
In-Reply-To: <269764965.1533522.1559338597268@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <269764965.1533522.1559338597268.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <269764965.1533522.1559338597268@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20j8SzmH18K0Xo6HiGGa2H526ZVhuK320hV1njyrd2Xe+paA@mail.gmail.com>

OK, stupid question time.  I'm at work and I can't find retrocomp's
website.  Can you point me to it?

Thanks,

Marc Howard

On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 2:36 PM Brian Roth via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> If anybody is interested in building  Jorge Hoppe's Uniprobe, I have some
> PCB's available. I made a few extra to keep the price down. Price is $40 ea
> shipped in the CONUS. These have Silver fingers rather than Gold but should
> still hold up well. Build information is on Retrocomp.
>
> Brian.
>