From barythrin at gmail.com Mon Jul 1 00:37:36 2019 From: barythrin at gmail.com (John Herron) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 00:37:36 -0500 Subject: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR In-Reply-To: <027e01d52dea$4b6fc130$e24f4390$@com> References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com> <2cc5ef71-eda2-2ddf-c3b1-af7dcf91b234@sydex.com> <3C958FC80A5443C0BB2AFEF417E32D63@teoPC> <027e01d52dea$4b6fc130$e24f4390$@com> Message-ID: This is interesting. How long ago was that out of curiosity? I keep thinking to ask my bank if they have any dollar coins or half dollar rolls (probably doing them a favor by trading for more common currency) same with $2 bills. Might as well get them before they're really out of circulation unless that already happened. On Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 2:47 PM Electronics Plus via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Just for fun, I went to the bank and bought about $1000 in half dollar and > dollar coins. My son collects them, and we went through them all. We did > find some silver half dollars. The ones we are not keeping now go to > whatever fast food or corner store is needed. Some like them, some hate > them! Most tell me they have not seen them in years. > > Cindy > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of TeoZ via > cctalk > Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 2:36 PM > To: Chuck Guzis; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an > IBM 5100 using OCR > > I have not seen any half dollars in circulation in some time. They are > just > too big to fit in people skinny jeans these days. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk > Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 3:18 PM > To: Fred Cisin via cctalk > Subject: Re: OT: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of > an > IBM 5100 using OCR > > On 6/28/19 9:57 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >>> I saw this half-dollar sized plastic fob on the desk and asked what > >>> it was for. > > The big failure of the Susan B. Anthony coin was that it was about the > same size (slightly different shape) as a quarter-dollar coin, causing > people to mistake them as such on occasion. > > It was *extremely* unpopular. > > FWIW, I just checked my "loose change" container that sits atop my > bedroom dresser. There were two Kennedy half-dollars--one from 1968 and > the other from 1983. I suspect that a great many are still in > circulation. > > --Chuck > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 1 00:50:18 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2019 22:50:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR In-Reply-To: References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com> <2cc5ef71-eda2-2ddf-c3b1-af7dcf91b234@sydex.com> <3C958FC80A5443C0BB2AFEF417E32D63@teoPC> <027e01d52dea$4b6fc130$e24f4390$@com> Message-ID: I think that half-dollar and small dollar are still officially in circulation. You might have to ask your bank to ORDER. I think that they stopped minting half dollar in 2002, when they decided that they had enough inventory to meet foreseeable needs. Half-dollar would presumably be all Kennedy. Walking Liberty is now R at RE. Small dollar would be commemorative presidents, with some random Susan B. Anthony, Scajewea, Native American small dollars mixed in. But, don't you want to collact EVERY president? :-) Cartwheels (large dollar) are not in circulation much. On Mon, 1 Jul 2019, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > This is interesting. How long ago was that out of curiosity? I keep > thinking to ask my bank if they have any dollar coins or half dollar rolls > (probably doing them a favor by trading for more common currency) same with > $2 bills. Might as well get them before they're really out of circulation > unless that already happened. > > On Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 2:47 PM Electronics Plus via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Just for fun, I went to the bank and bought about $1000 in half dollar and >> dollar coins. My son collects them, and we went through them all. We did >> find some silver half dollars. The ones we are not keeping now go to >> whatever fast food or corner store is needed. Some like them, some hate >> them! Most tell me they have not seen them in years. >> >> Cindy >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of TeoZ via >> cctalk >> Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 2:36 PM >> To: Chuck Guzis; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an >> IBM 5100 using OCR >> >> I have not seen any half dollars in circulation in some time. They are >> just >> too big to fit in people skinny jeans these days. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk >> Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 3:18 PM >> To: Fred Cisin via cctalk >> Subject: Re: OT: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of >> an >> IBM 5100 using OCR >> >> On 6/28/19 9:57 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>>>> I saw this half-dollar sized plastic fob on the desk and asked what >>>>> it was for. >> >> The big failure of the Susan B. Anthony coin was that it was about the >> same size (slightly different shape) as a quarter-dollar coin, causing >> people to mistake them as such on occasion. >> >> It was *extremely* unpopular. >> >> FWIW, I just checked my "loose change" container that sits atop my >> bedroom dresser. There were two Kennedy half-dollars--one from 1968 and >> the other from 1983. I suspect that a great many are still in >> circulation. >> >> --Chuck >> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus From useddec at gmail.com Mon Jul 1 00:52:40 2019 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 00:52:40 -0500 Subject: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR In-Reply-To: References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com> <2cc5ef71-eda2-2ddf-c3b1-af7dcf91b234@sydex.com> <3C958FC80A5443C0BB2AFEF417E32D63@teoPC> <027e01d52dea$4b6fc130$e24f4390$@com> Message-ID: The banks I go to usually have a pretty good selection. Every once in a while I'll get a surprise from a teller who has been saving something special for me for a few days. If asked nicely, some tellers will watch for things for you. On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 12:37 AM John Herron via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > This is interesting. How long ago was that out of curiosity? I keep > thinking to ask my bank if they have any dollar coins or half dollar rolls > (probably doing them a favor by trading for more common currency) same with > $2 bills. Might as well get them before they're really out of circulation > unless that already happened. > > On Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 2:47 PM Electronics Plus via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Just for fun, I went to the bank and bought about $1000 in half dollar > and > > dollar coins. My son collects them, and we went through them all. We did > > find some silver half dollars. The ones we are not keeping now go to > > whatever fast food or corner store is needed. Some like them, some hate > > them! Most tell me they have not seen them in years. > > > > Cindy > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of TeoZ > via > > cctalk > > Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 2:36 PM > > To: Chuck Guzis; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an > > IBM 5100 using OCR > > > > I have not seen any half dollars in circulation in some time. They are > > just > > too big to fit in people skinny jeans these days. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk > > Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 3:18 PM > > To: Fred Cisin via cctalk > > Subject: Re: OT: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of > > an > > IBM 5100 using OCR > > > > On 6/28/19 9:57 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > >>> I saw this half-dollar sized plastic fob on the desk and asked what > > >>> it was for. > > > > The big failure of the Susan B. Anthony coin was that it was about the > > same size (slightly different shape) as a quarter-dollar coin, causing > > people to mistake them as such on occasion. > > > > It was *extremely* unpopular. > > > > FWIW, I just checked my "loose change" container that sits atop my > > bedroom dresser. There were two Kennedy half-dollars--one from 1968 and > > the other from 1983. I suspect that a great many are still in > > circulation. > > > > --Chuck > > > > > > --- > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > > > From useddec at gmail.com Mon Jul 1 00:57:03 2019 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 00:57:03 -0500 Subject: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR In-Reply-To: References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com> <2cc5ef71-eda2-2ddf-c3b1-af7dcf91b234@sydex.com> <3C958FC80A5443C0BB2AFEF417E32D63@teoPC> <027e01d52dea$4b6fc130$e24f4390$@com> Message-ID: I have US half dollar coins (JFK) trom 2017, and maybe later they were in proof sets, unc sets, and banks should have them for general circulation. On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 12:50 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > I think that half-dollar and small dollar are still officially in > circulation. You might have to ask your bank to ORDER. > I think that they stopped minting half dollar in 2002, when they decided > that they had enough inventory to meet foreseeable needs. > > Half-dollar would presumably be all Kennedy. Walking Liberty is now R at RE. > > Small dollar would be commemorative presidents, with some random Susan B. > Anthony, Scajewea, Native American small dollars mixed in. But, don't you > want to collact EVERY president? :-) > Cartwheels (large dollar) are not in circulation much. > > > On Mon, 1 Jul 2019, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > > > This is interesting. How long ago was that out of curiosity? I keep > > thinking to ask my bank if they have any dollar coins or half dollar > rolls > > (probably doing them a favor by trading for more common currency) same > with > > $2 bills. Might as well get them before they're really out of circulation > > unless that already happened. > > > > On Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 2:47 PM Electronics Plus via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> Just for fun, I went to the bank and bought about $1000 in half dollar > and > >> dollar coins. My son collects them, and we went through them all. We did > >> find some silver half dollars. The ones we are not keeping now go to > >> whatever fast food or corner store is needed. Some like them, some hate > >> them! Most tell me they have not seen them in years. > >> > >> Cindy > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of TeoZ > via > >> cctalk > >> Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 2:36 PM > >> To: Chuck Guzis; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> Subject: Re: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an > >> IBM 5100 using OCR > >> > >> I have not seen any half dollars in circulation in some time. They are > >> just > >> too big to fit in people skinny jeans these days. > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk > >> Sent: Friday, June 28, 2019 3:18 PM > >> To: Fred Cisin via cctalk > >> Subject: Re: OT: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM > of > >> an > >> IBM 5100 using OCR > >> > >> On 6/28/19 9:57 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >>>>> I saw this half-dollar sized plastic fob on the desk and asked what > >>>>> it was for. > >> > >> The big failure of the Susan B. Anthony coin was that it was about the > >> same size (slightly different shape) as a quarter-dollar coin, causing > >> people to mistake them as such on occasion. > >> > >> It was *extremely* unpopular. > >> > >> FWIW, I just checked my "loose change" container that sits atop my > >> bedroom dresser. There were two Kennedy half-dollars--one from 1968 and > >> the other from 1983. I suspect that a great many are still in > >> circulation. > >> > >> --Chuck > >> > >> > >> --- > >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus > From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jul 1 06:10:16 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 13:10:16 +0200 Subject: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR In-Reply-To: References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com> <2cc5ef71-eda2-2ddf-c3b1-af7dcf91b234@sydex.com> <3C958FC80A5443C0BB2AFEF417E32D63@teoPC> <027e01d52dea$4b6fc130$e24f4390$@com> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Jun 2019 at 13:39, William Donzelli wrote: > > Your knowledge is way out of date. I was first there about 25y ago, and last there about 17y ago. The much-vaunted redesign was, to my European eyes, so subtle as to be indistinguishable. No, I'm not kidding. > US currency changed about twenty > years ago, partially to benefit the blind. Other than the one dollar > note, they all now have much larger portraits, big plain numbers on > the back, and subtle color variations. There is a tradeoff in the > design - the mint makes them distinctive enough for the blind, yet > identical enough to force people to actually look at the notes. In every other country I've visited or lived in -- about 30 or 40 of them -- banknotes are all different sizes, so that totally blind people can sort by size if they have a few of them. I daresay the very skilled can do it by absolute, not relative, size. Sighted people can and do do it by touch without really thinking about it. Braille is all very well but requires careful manual searching to find the codes and then reading of them. Note size is much quicker and easier. > Additionally, the newer brass color dollar coins are fairly successful > with the blind. They have a distinct color and edge, which does make > them very easy to distinguish from the Quarter, unlike the earlier > Susan B Anthony coin. This I didn't know but I'll take your word. To be honest, even in the UK, my blind friends mostly dislike dealing in both paper and metal currency and if they can, these days they pay with a card. Facebook's efforts to introduce a cryptocurrency highlighted that its management are rich enough that, even if they are well-travelled now, they don't personally pay for stuff. Most of the developed world has working contactless payment systems now, and we don't need Apple Pay or anything. My main British and Czech bank cards are all contactless. I don't insert them in slots much any more and I don't sign for things any more -- that went out in the 20th century. I just tap the card on a reader, and if the transaction is more than a cutoff, I enter my PIN. Obviously it's hard for blind people to sign for things; they mostly cannot write or fill in paper forms, including cheques. However entering a PIN is easy. Here in Czechia, there is little use of internet payment systems such as Paypal. They bypassed the whole cheque era; most Czechs have never seen a chequebook and a few friends were fascinated when I showed them my old British ones. Paper cheques disappeared in Britain a decade ago and are very rare now. Trivial payments are by card; large ones are by bank-to-bank electronic transfer. I can buy train tickets, theatre or concert tickets by sending the money directly from my bank via their website or smartphone app to the vendor's account. So people don't use their cards much online here, as they do now in Britain and Western Europe. In China, they don't even use cards -- it's a mobile phone app. Actual cash is disappearing. They bypassed cheques _and_ plastic cards and went from cash to apps. My American friends and colleagues over here talk about US cheque processing and sending _images_ of cheques to one another, and the Czechs are incredulous. This is like hearing about carrying letters by horse-drawn carriage in these parts; this is a technology that never really happened here and that pretty much no living person has ever seen. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jul 1 06:17:45 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 13:17:45 +0200 Subject: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR In-Reply-To: References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com> <2cc5ef71-eda2-2ddf-c3b1-af7dcf91b234@sydex.com> <3C958FC80A5443C0BB2AFEF417E32D63@teoPC> <027e01d52dea$4b6fc130$e24f4390$@com> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Jun 2019 at 15:57, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > USA makes a pretense of accommodating disabilities, but is actually pretty > hostile to the disabled. :-( > The "new" paper currency, that is s'posedly good for blind people has > slightly different shades of the same colors. (!) I googled pictures. Amazing. I am reminded of a famed quote from TV snooker commentator Ted Lowe, describing a position of the balls on the table: "Steve is going for the pink ball - and for those of you who are watching in black and white, the pink is next to the green." Snooker is a cue/ball game a bit like pool but much harder and on a far bigger table: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snooker > A "Dime" is one tenth of a dollar. Or ten cents. Or $10 worth of drugs. > The coin is 17.91mm diameter, and the smallest coin in circulation. > > A "Nickel" is five cents. or $5 worth of drugs. > The coin is 21.21mm, and is between a penny and a quarter in size. I'm broadly aware but I can never remember which is 5? and which is 10?. Thanks for the info on drug purchasing, in case I ever need that. :-D > "Silver Dollar pancakes" are actually larger than a silver dollar, but > nobody complains. :-D > Pennies used to be copper. Now, they are mostly zinc, due to copper > costing more than a penny. But, they managed to maintain the copper > color. During WW2, pennies were briefly made out of steel. I think many "copper" or "brass" coins around the world now are steel with a coating -- it's cheaper. > Our parent country taught us to make currency weird, and we have carried > on the tradition. Yeah, but we reformed and decimalised it all about 50y ago, and now, as an olde pharte, all the old units and multiples are arcane and weird even to me. I have only the dimmest memories of seeing shillings and things like that. I barely understand feet and inches and don't really grasp pounds, ounces and so on at all. I have never used Fahrenheit. I recently bought Dr Spock's famed baby book and have discovered to my dismay that all the units in it are incomprehensible. :-( -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jul 1 07:01:36 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 08:01:36 -0400 Subject: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR In-Reply-To: References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com> <2cc5ef71-eda2-2ddf-c3b1-af7dcf91b234@sydex.com> <3C958FC80A5443C0BB2AFEF417E32D63@teoPC> <027e01d52dea$4b6fc130$e24f4390$@com> Message-ID: > In every other country I've visited or lived in -- about 30 or 40 of > them -- banknotes are all different sizes, so that totally blind > people can sort by size if they have a few of them. I daresay the very > skilled can do it by absolute, not relative, size. Sighted people can > and do do it by touch without really thinking about it. US currency is the most most seriously counterfeited in the world, due to being useful almost anywhere. This is why the bills are not very distinctive - you are supposed to look at them. Most counterfeits are good, but not good enough, and can (and will) stick out in a batch of bills - the might just look "funny" or "odd". Have millions of eyes looking for the counterfeits ever day of the year is actually quite effective. I once worked at a bank, and the number of bogus bills that the tellers would get every month was very significant - and most actually stuck out like a sore thumb!. So if you get a stack of US currency, and need to count it, you really need to look at each one, even if just a partial quick glance. With a stack of Euros, you can do a quick sort by color or size, and bogus bills can slip right by. It is a trade off. Mind you, I think US currency is very ugly, compared to many other currencies, but I see the point of the design. On the other hand, US coins really are not faked very much anymore (it is mostly limited to older collectibles), so the US Mint have been playing around a lot with new coin designs, maybe more than ever before. They are even starting to purposely introduce limited editions into circulation (the "W Quarter"), just for fun. The are, of course, still constrained by the physical aspects of the coins, due to mechanical changers and such. > To be honest, even in the UK, my blind friends mostly dislike dealing > in both paper and metal currency and if they can, these days they pay > with a card. Yes, that is the case all around, for the entire population. > Paper cheques disappeared in Britain a decade ago > and are very rare now. That is mostly the case here as well. Most under-40 people do not have a checkbook anymore. In my business, I get maybe two payments per year with checks - well under 1/10 of a percent of total payments. > My American friends and colleagues over here talk about US cheque > processing and sending _images_ of cheques to one another, and the > Czechs are incredulous. This is like hearing about carrying letters by > horse-drawn carriage in these parts; this is a technology that never > really happened here and that pretty much no living person has ever > seen. There are still a few institutions and older folks that still use checks (like the annoying people that hold up the line in a grocery store, writing out a check), so the image deposit system is just an effort to cut down the foot traffic to banks. More convenience for customers, and less labor costs for banks. It is handy to have, but really, not many people use it much, simply because getting a paper check is just a rare occurrence these days. -- Will From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jul 1 07:23:16 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 14:23:16 +0200 Subject: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR In-Reply-To: References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com> <2cc5ef71-eda2-2ddf-c3b1-af7dcf91b234@sydex.com> <3C958FC80A5443C0BB2AFEF417E32D63@teoPC> <027e01d52dea$4b6fc130$e24f4390$@com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Jul 2019 at 14:01, William Donzelli wrote: > > US currency is the most most seriously counterfeited in the world, due > to being useful almost anywhere. This is why the bills are not very > distinctive - you are supposed to look at them. Most counterfeits are > good, but not good enough, and can (and will) stick out in a batch of > bills - the might just look "funny" or "odd". Have millions of eyes > looking for the counterfeits ever day of the year is actually quite > effective. I once worked at a bank, and the number of bogus bills that > the tellers would get every month was very significant - and most > actually stuck out like a sore thumb!. That's kinda a good point. :-) Fake bills aren't a big problem in Europe in my experience, but I have seen them and it does happen. > Mind you, I think US currency is very ugly, compared to many other > currencies, but I see the point of the design. Personally I don't hugely care about that. I remember when the Euro became common a lot of people thought they were too modern, too colourful, etc. Comments such as "it looks like Monopoly money" were common. But we've all got used to them now. > Yes, that is the case all around, for the entire population. Well, yes, but more so. As in, paying for 1 beer, or other small transactions that for most sighted people wouldn't be worth it. > That is mostly the case here as well. Most under-40 people do not have > a checkbook anymore. In my business, I get maybe two payments per year > with checks - well under 1/10 of a percent of total payments. That doesn't jar with the experiences of my American friends over here, who have to send cheques to the US for processing, get cheques in the mail and send images back, stuff like that. A friend sends photos of cheques to his sister for her to process for him for small stuff "back home". It seems to be quite an everyday thing. > There are still a few institutions and older folks that still use > checks (like the annoying people that hold up the line in a grocery > store, writing out a check), so the image deposit system is just an > effort to cut down the foot traffic to banks. And freighting trucks full of cheques from bank to bank, I thought? > More convenience for > customers, and less labor costs for banks. It is handy to have, but > really, not many people use it much, simply because getting a paper > check is just a rare occurrence these days. Hmm. It certainly is for me, but not from what I hear for others... -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From pat at vax11.net Mon Jul 1 08:26:02 2019 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 09:26:02 -0400 Subject: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR In-Reply-To: References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com> <2cc5ef71-eda2-2ddf-c3b1-af7dcf91b234@sydex.com> <3C958FC80A5443C0BB2AFEF417E32D63@teoPC> <027e01d52dea$4b6fc130$e24f4390$@com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 8:01 AM William Donzelli via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > That is mostly the case here as well. Most under-40 people do not have > a checkbook anymore. In my business, I get maybe two payments per year > with checks - well under 1/10 of a percent of total payments. > > > My American friends and colleagues over here talk about US cheque > > processing and sending _images_ of cheques to one another, and the > > Czechs are incredulous. This is like hearing about carrying letters by > > horse-drawn carriage in these parts; this is a technology that never > > really happened here and that pretty much no living person has ever > > seen. > > There are still a few institutions and older folks that still use > checks (like the annoying people that hold up the line in a grocery > store, writing out a check), so the image deposit system is just an > effort to cut down the foot traffic to banks. More convenience for > customers, and less labor costs for banks. It is handy to have, but > really, not many people use it much, simply because getting a paper > check is just a rare occurrence these days. > A few more thoughts from watching this conversation.. Checks can be relatively convenient and cheap compared to other options. I can (for free) send a check of any size to anyone I want by filling out a form on my bank's website to pay someone (mostly limited by my account's balance). Running a business, I have to occasionally transfer more money between my LLC and personal account that goes over the monthly limit I can do, so I have them print a check, and go to the branch, pick it up, and deposit it into the other account. It's dumb, but reliable and easier/cheaper than doing it electronically. Plus, checks are easier to deposit at home using a phone app than cash is. I'm still waiting for that one to be figured out... EFT costs money, have relatively low limits, and require you to know the bank account # of the recipient. Personal "internet-based" electronic payment systems fix the account number problem, but I've got accounts on like five different ones to be able to send money to different people who don't all use the same one. At least in the US, card processing costs (usually) the recipient some percentage of the transaction. As a merchant, I just factor that into the costs of doing business. If I have to pay an extra 3% to send money to a friend for a shared expense, that's annoying. NFC-based tap-to-pay systems (Google/Apple Pay, etc) are nice where they're adopted. I enjoyed using them pretty universally in Australia, and was sad at now few seemed to exist in New Zealand. The nicest part was that it kept the terminal from asking me to sign a receipt. There were a fair number of situations where I tried to pay for things, but they refused chip-and-signature cards, and had to find cash. As an aside, coming from the US, it seems strange to pay (business/strangers) for things and use a card that draws directly from a bank account instead of credit. If someone steals the account # or the merchant screws me over, there's basically no protections on my debit card, especially if I don't notice it right away. If you have good enough credit to get a credit card, it's easily worth the benefits. Pat From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jul 1 09:23:54 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 16:23:54 +0200 Subject: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR In-Reply-To: References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com> <2cc5ef71-eda2-2ddf-c3b1-af7dcf91b234@sydex.com> <3C958FC80A5443C0BB2AFEF417E32D63@teoPC> <027e01d52dea$4b6fc130$e24f4390$@com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Jul 2019 at 15:26, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Checks can be relatively convenient and cheap compared to other options. I can (for free) send a check of any size to anyone I want by filling out a form on my bank's website to pay someone (mostly limited by my account's balance). You need to use a cheque to do that?! o_O > Running a business, I have to occasionally transfer more money between my LLC and personal account that goes over the monthly limit I can do, so I have them print a check, and go to the branch, pick it up, and deposit it into the other account. :-o ... I am astounded. I have only done that I think once in my life, to buy a motorcycle, about 30y ago. UK cheques were guaranteed by your card up to ?50. IOW they got the money even if you didn't have it. For bigger purchases, sometimes, vendors might refuse. So you could get a "counter cheque" or "banker's draft" for large transactions -- i.e. thousands to tens of thousands -- which means the bank guarantees it, not you personally. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banker%27s_draft > It's dumb, but reliable and easier/cheaper than doing it electronically. I feel like the Reddit thread where the Americans discovered that for everyone else, SMS are free to receive, and the Europeans discovered that Americans pay to _get_ SMS as well as to _send_ SMS. You *pay* for EFT?! I am astounded, aghast, shocked! > Plus, checks are easier to deposit at home using a phone app than cash is. I heard that. I think it's hilarious. It's like, I don't know, chiselling a message into a rock, then taking a photo of the rock and mailing it. Like an Asterix comic book, from a parallel universe where no one invented paper and pen. > EFT costs money, have relatively low limits, and require you to know the bank account # of the recipient. *Boggle* I bought my new _apartment_ by EFT in April. Of _course_ it didn't cost me anything. I'd no more expect to pay than I'd expect to pay to breathe. Yes I have the account numbers. Everyone does. You can't withdraw using it, only deposit. > Personal "internet-based" electronic payment systems fix the account number problem, but I've got accounts on like five different ones to be able to send money to different people who don't all use the same one. The EU system is EU-wide. > At least in the US, card processing costs (usually) the recipient some percentage of the transaction. As a merchant, I just factor that into the costs of doing business. If I have to pay an extra 3% to send money to a friend for a shared expense, that's annoying. That is normal but only a concern for merchants. > NFC-based tap-to-pay systems (Google/Apple Pay, etc) are nice where they're adopted. I enjoyed using them pretty universally in Australia, and was sad at now few seemed to exist in New Zealand. The nicest part was that it kept the terminal from asking me to sign a receipt. There were a fair number of situations where I tried to pay for things, but they refused chip-and-signature cards, and had to find cash. I was in the Nethelands at new year and found I could not use my cards to pay. This is the first time it's happened to me this century. This includes non-EU countries, across the Caribbean, etc. > As an aside, coming from the US, it seems strange to pay (business/strangers) for things and use a card that draws directly from a bank account instead of credit. If someone steals the account # or the merchant screws me over, there's basically no protections on my debit card, especially if I don't notice it right away. If you have good enough credit to get a credit card, it's easily worth the benefits. If there is a dodgy withdrawal or payment, the bank refunds you and then use their might and clout and lawyers to chase the miscreant. You don't pay. We mostly only use credit cards for transactions when we don't have the money, e.g. big payments before payday, or for additional services -- e.g. mine gives me automatic travel insurance whenever I buy travel tickets with it. So I buy all my airfares and things that way. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From aperry at snowmoose.com Mon Jul 1 10:46:03 2019 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 08:46:03 -0700 Subject: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR In-Reply-To: References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com> <2cc5ef71-eda2-2ddf-c3b1-af7dcf91b234@sydex.com> <3C958FC80A5443C0BB2AFEF417E32D63@teoPC> <027e01d52dea$4b6fc130$e24f4390$@com> Message-ID: <2c85aa68-793d-fb53-cb66-9645ae159811@snowmoose.com> On 7/1/19 5:01 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: >> In every other country I've visited or lived in -- about 30 or 40 of >> them -- banknotes are all different sizes, so that totally blind >> people can sort by size if they have a few of them. I daresay the very >> skilled can do it by absolute, not relative, size. Sighted people can >> and do do it by touch without really thinking about it. > US currency is the most most seriously counterfeited in the world, due > to being useful almost anywhere. This is why the bills are not very > distinctive - you are supposed to look at them. Most counterfeits are > good, but not good enough, and can (and will) stick out in a batch of > bills - the might just look "funny" or "odd". Have millions of eyes > looking for the counterfeits ever day of the year is actually quite > effective. I once worked at a bank, and the number of bogus bills that > the tellers would get every month was very significant - and most > actually stuck out like a sore thumb!. I sold a $3500 car once for cash to a guy who sold his goods at a booth at fairs and shows. He received lots and lots of $20 bills in payment, so that is what he paid me with. I kept the cash instead of depositing it in the bank and going to an ATM to get cash out. One day I was counting out some cash and two of the bills felt funny. This was before a lot of the anti-counterfeiting features in current $20 bills. The bills themselves looked really close to real ones, but the feel of the paper was wrong. > > > >> Paper cheques disappeared in Britain a decade ago >> and are very rare now. > That is mostly the case here as well. Most under-40 people do not have > a checkbook anymore. In my business, I get maybe two payments per year > with checks - well under 1/10 of a percent of total payments. > >> My American friends and colleagues over here talk about US cheque >> processing and sending _images_ of cheques to one another, and the >> Czechs are incredulous. This is like hearing about carrying letters by >> horse-drawn carriage in these parts; this is a technology that never >> really happened here and that pretty much no living person has ever >> seen. > There are still a few institutions and older folks that still use > checks (like the annoying people that hold up the line in a grocery > store, writing out a check), so the image deposit system is just an > effort to cut down the foot traffic to banks. More convenience for > customers, and less labor costs for banks. It is handy to have, but > really, not many people use it much, simply because getting a paper > check is just a rare occurrence these days. Maybe for you. I did a group purchase of tickets for a club I am a member of.? Almost everyone paid me for their tickets paid with checks. I help organize motorsports events; my expenses are reimbursed with checks. alan > > -- > Will From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jul 1 12:01:08 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 19:01:08 +0200 Subject: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR In-Reply-To: <2c85aa68-793d-fb53-cb66-9645ae159811@snowmoose.com> References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com> <2cc5ef71-eda2-2ddf-c3b1-af7dcf91b234@sydex.com> <3C958FC80A5443C0BB2AFEF417E32D63@teoPC> <027e01d52dea$4b6fc130$e24f4390$@com> <2c85aa68-793d-fb53-cb66-9645ae159811@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Jul 2019 at 17:46, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > I sold a $3500 car once for cash to a guy who sold his goods at a booth > at fairs and shows. He received lots and lots of $20 bills in payment, > so that is what he paid me with. I kept the cash instead of depositing > it in the bank and going to an ATM to get cash out. I hear that. I also bought a motorbike this way once. The dealers gave me a discount "for cash". I was na?ve and thought that meant actual specie and turned up with ?2000 in notes. The poor salesman nearly had an unfortunate little personal accident and was fearful his boss would give him grief for leaving so much in the company safe. He had merely meant "not for credit" and had expected a banker's draft or the like. > Maybe for you. I did a group purchase of tickets for a club I am a > member of. Almost everyone paid me for their tickets paid with checks. > I help organize motorsports events; my expenses are reimbursed with checks. This matches what I've heard. I suspect that my Czech bank probably lacks any facilities for processing paper cheques whatsoever. I still used them occasionally in Britain when I left, circa 2014, but they'd been very rare for ~5 years by then. In the noughties I still used them regularly and caused some institutions -- e.g. my ISP -- quite serious operational problems by doing so. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jul 1 12:09:06 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 13:09:06 -0400 Subject: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR In-Reply-To: <2c85aa68-793d-fb53-cb66-9645ae159811@snowmoose.com> References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com> <2cc5ef71-eda2-2ddf-c3b1-af7dcf91b234@sydex.com> <3C958FC80A5443C0BB2AFEF417E32D63@teoPC> <027e01d52dea$4b6fc130$e24f4390$@com> <2c85aa68-793d-fb53-cb66-9645ae159811@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: > Maybe for you. I did a group purchase of tickets for a club I am a > member of. Almost everyone paid me for their tickets paid with checks. > I help organize motorsports events; my expenses are reimbursed with checks. Paypal seems to be king for this sort of thing around here. -- Will From commodorejohn at gmail.com Mon Jul 1 12:22:11 2019 From: commodorejohn at gmail.com (John Ames) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 10:22:11 -0700 Subject: Latest Additions to the Virtual Warehouse of Computing Wonders Sale Inventory Message-ID: I'll also vouch for Sellam. His prices are a bit higher than I might prefer, but he's a straight dealer as far as I've ever seen; I bought an Apple IIc from him and he gave me no trouble at all about exchanging it when the board turned out to be cracked. From aperry at snowmoose.com Mon Jul 1 12:23:17 2019 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 10:23:17 -0700 Subject: OT: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR In-Reply-To: References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com> <2cc5ef71-eda2-2ddf-c3b1-af7dcf91b234@sydex.com> <3C958FC80A5443C0BB2AFEF417E32D63@teoPC> <027e01d52dea$4b6fc130$e24f4390$@com> <2c85aa68-793d-fb53-cb66-9645ae159811@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <2c56976e-0a0f-746b-17d1-9ee57d773358@snowmoose.com> On 7/1/19 10:01 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 1 Jul 2019 at 17:46, Alan Perry via cctalk > wrote: > >> I sold a $3500 car once for cash to a guy who sold his goods at a booth >> at fairs and shows. He received lots and lots of $20 bills in payment, >> so that is what he paid me with. I kept the cash instead of depositing >> it in the bank and going to an ATM to get cash out. > I hear that. I also bought a motorbike this way once. The dealers gave > me a discount "for cash". I was na?ve and thought that meant actual > specie and turned up with ?2000 in notes. The poor salesman nearly had > an unfortunate little personal accident and was fearful his boss would > give him grief for leaving so much in the company safe. He had merely > meant "not for credit" and had expected a banker's draft or the like. I had another car that I sold for $24000 where the buyer paid in cash. The largest denomination in circulation here is the $100 bill (note), so that was a stack of cash. That went into the bank (after taking some creative photos with the money). There are small bank branches in grocery stores here and I deposited the money at one of those kinds of branches. It was more cash than they were used to dealing with and they didn't want to take it. alan From aperry at snowmoose.com Mon Jul 1 12:41:32 2019 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 10:41:32 -0700 Subject: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR In-Reply-To: References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com> <2cc5ef71-eda2-2ddf-c3b1-af7dcf91b234@sydex.com> <3C958FC80A5443C0BB2AFEF417E32D63@teoPC> <027e01d52dea$4b6fc130$e24f4390$@com> <2c85aa68-793d-fb53-cb66-9645ae159811@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On 7/1/19 10:09 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: >> Maybe for you. I did a group purchase of tickets for a club I am a >> member of. Almost everyone paid me for their tickets paid with checks. >> I help organize motorsports events; my expenses are reimbursed with checks. > Paypal seems to be king for this sort of thing around here. > Got one PayPal for the tickets. My daughter does a lot of Venmo. A few years ago, one of the motorsports events that I help organize used PayPal. The entry fee was around $1000-2000 (depending on the type of entry) and I think we got around 50 entries that year. Most of the competitors pay their entry fee on the last day of the "early entry" deadline before the price goes up. When that happened, PayPal flagged the event's account and locked access to the funds in the account. They kept it locked until after the event was run. There was no reason for this; the event had been running for almost a decade with no financial issues. However, there are pre-event expenses that the event has to cover and, thanks to PayPal, it had no access to the entry fee money for this. If it were not for member's of the organizing committee loaning the event money for those expenses, the event would not have happened that year. So, PayPal (and, by association, any other electronic payment system) isn't even considered these days. alan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jul 1 12:49:23 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 13:49:23 -0400 Subject: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR In-Reply-To: References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com> <2cc5ef71-eda2-2ddf-c3b1-af7dcf91b234@sydex.com> <3C958FC80A5443C0BB2AFEF417E32D63@teoPC> <027e01d52dea$4b6fc130$e24f4390$@com> <2c85aa68-793d-fb53-cb66-9645ae159811@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: > A few years ago, one of the motorsports events that I help organize used > PayPal. The entry fee was around $1000-2000 (depending on the type of > entry) and I think we got around 50 entries that year. Most of the > competitors pay their entry fee on the last day of the "early entry" > deadline before the price goes up. When that happened, PayPal flagged > the event's account and locked access to the funds in the account. Did anyone in the organization warn Paypal of sudden influx of transactions? This can make a world of difference. -- Will From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Mon Jul 1 14:29:15 2019 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 12:29:15 -0700 Subject: Latest Additions to the Virtual Warehouse of Computing Wonders Sale Inventory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think the big difference between Sellam and a lot of people selling on, say, eBay is that Sellam is One Of Us: He?s a collector and enthusiast himself, not just someone hoping to make a buck off of a market in which they?re not themselves a participant. So the stuff that I?ve gotten from Sellam feels like stuff *of Sellam?s* that I?ve gotten, rather than stuff Sellam just picked up to resell. And that?s something I really appreciate. -- Chris From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 1 16:10:00 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 14:10:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR In-Reply-To: References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com> <2cc5ef71-eda2-2ddf-c3b1-af7dcf91b234@sydex.com> <3C958FC80A5443C0BB2AFEF417E32D63@teoPC> <027e01d52dea$4b6fc130$e24f4390$@com> Message-ID: Now that the dollar coin is a different color than the quarter, they don't end up mixed. But, the replacement of the Washington quarter, that even included when they were silver, with the commemorative quarters means they are now all different designs, and the Susan B. Anthony dollar coins no longer have more of a difference of appearance from quarters than a Canadian quarter. >> A "Dime" is one tenth of a dollar. Or ten cents. Or $10 worth of drugs. >> The coin is 17.91mm diameter, and the smallest coin in circulation. >> A "Nickel" is five cents. or $5 worth of drugs. >> The coin is 21.21mm, and is between a penny and a quarter in size. > I'm broadly aware but I can never remember which is 5? and which is 10?. Think of the "dime" as a "deci" "nickel and dime" is used to mean small and irrelevant. "nickel" and "dime" are also slang for $5 and $10 respectively, except in casinos, because while the casinos still had coin slot machines they had nickel ones, and did NOT confuse those with $5 chips. But, without the little paper-cup bucket of coins, what's the appeal of scanning a card, and then, if the machine malfunctioned and you won, it prints out a piece of paper to take to the cashier cage? > Yeah, but we reformed and decimalised it all about 50y ago, and now, > as an olde pharte, all the old units and multiples are arcane and > weird even to me. I have only the dimmest memories of seeing shillings > and things like that. I barely understand feet and inches and don't > really grasp pounds, ounces and so on at all. I have never used > Fahrenheit. Oh, but we are proud of our unremembered heritage, and fiercely resist change. We still use Fahrenheit. And efforts to "go metric" have made little headway. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jul 1 16:23:46 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 21:23:46 +0000 Subject: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR In-Reply-To: References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com> <2cc5ef71-eda2-2ddf-c3b1-af7dcf91b234@sydex.com> <3C958FC80A5443C0BB2AFEF417E32D63@teoPC> <027e01d52dea$4b6fc130$e24f4390$@com> , Message-ID: Not every thing makes sense to go metric. Clearly bold sizes are better off in fractional sizes. Also for wrenches. I have to have 13, 14 and 15 mm wrenches. A 9/16 would have covered the entire range. I have a spot on my car that I need a 23mm offset box wrench. What a pain. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 2:10 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR Now that the dollar coin is a different color than the quarter, they don't end up mixed. But, the replacement of the Washington quarter, that even included when they were silver, with the commemorative quarters means they are now all different designs, and the Susan B. Anthony dollar coins no longer have more of a difference of appearance from quarters than a Canadian quarter. >> A "Dime" is one tenth of a dollar. Or ten cents. Or $10 worth of drugs. >> The coin is 17.91mm diameter, and the smallest coin in circulation. >> A "Nickel" is five cents. or $5 worth of drugs. >> The coin is 21.21mm, and is between a penny and a quarter in size. > I'm broadly aware but I can never remember which is 5? and which is 10?. Think of the "dime" as a "deci" "nickel and dime" is used to mean small and irrelevant. "nickel" and "dime" are also slang for $5 and $10 respectively, except in casinos, because while the casinos still had coin slot machines they had nickel ones, and did NOT confuse those with $5 chips. But, without the little paper-cup bucket of coins, what's the appeal of scanning a card, and then, if the machine malfunctioned and you won, it prints out a piece of paper to take to the cashier cage? > Yeah, but we reformed and decimalised it all about 50y ago, and now, > as an olde pharte, all the old units and multiples are arcane and > weird even to me. I have only the dimmest memories of seeing shillings > and things like that. I barely understand feet and inches and don't > really grasp pounds, ounces and so on at all. I have never used > Fahrenheit. Oh, but we are proud of our unremembered heritage, and fiercely resist change. We still use Fahrenheit. And efforts to "go metric" have made little headway. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Jul 1 16:42:59 2019 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 17:42:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: STOP IT : "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR In-Reply-To: References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com> <2cc5ef71-eda2-2ddf-c3b1-af7dcf91b234@sydex.com> <3C958FC80A5443C0BB2AFEF417E32D63@teoPC> <027e01d52dea$4b6fc130$e24f4390$@com> , Message-ID: ENOUGH ALREADY! Surely there must be better lists to carry on this conversation. On Mon, 1 Jul 2019, dwight via cctalk wrote: > Not every thing makes sense to go metric. Clearly bold sizes are better off in fractional sizes. Also for wrenches. I have to have 13, 14 and 15 mm wrenches. A 9/16 would have covered the entire range. I have a spot on my car that I need a 23mm offset box wrench. What a pain. > Dwight > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk > Sent: Monday, July 1, 2019 2:10 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR > > Now that the dollar coin is a different color than the quarter, they don't > end up mixed. But, the replacement of the Washington quarter, that even > included when they were silver, with the commemorative quarters means they > are now all different designs, and the Susan B. Anthony dollar coins no > longer have more of a difference of appearance from quarters than a > Canadian quarter. > > >>> A "Dime" is one tenth of a dollar. Or ten cents. Or $10 worth of drugs. >>> The coin is 17.91mm diameter, and the smallest coin in circulation. >>> A "Nickel" is five cents. or $5 worth of drugs. >>> The coin is 21.21mm, and is between a penny and a quarter in size. >> I'm broadly aware but I can never remember which is 5? and which is 10?. > > Think of the "dime" as a "deci" > > "nickel and dime" is used to mean small and irrelevant. > "nickel" and "dime" are also slang for $5 and $10 respectively, except in > casinos, because while the casinos still had coin slot machines they had > nickel ones, and did NOT confuse those with $5 chips. But, without the > little paper-cup bucket of coins, what's the appeal of scanning a card, > and then, if the machine malfunctioned and you won, it prints out a piece > of paper to take to the cashier cage? > >> Yeah, but we reformed and decimalised it all about 50y ago, and now, >> as an olde pharte, all the old units and multiples are arcane and >> weird even to me. I have only the dimmest memories of seeing shillings >> and things like that. I barely understand feet and inches and don't >> really grasp pounds, ounces and so on at all. I have never used >> Fahrenheit. > > Oh, but we are proud of our unremembered heritage, and fiercely resist > change. We still use Fahrenheit. And efforts to "go metric" have made > little headway. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Jul 1 16:47:47 2019 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 14:47:47 -0700 Subject: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR In-Reply-To: References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com> <2cc5ef71-eda2-2ddf-c3b1-af7dcf91b234@sydex.com> <3C958FC80A5443C0BB2AFEF417E32D63@teoPC> <027e01d52dea$4b6fc130$e24f4390$@com> Message-ID: <24D3AE8C-16E5-40A8-91DB-93069BBA47C0@shiresoft.com> > On Jul 1, 2019, at 2:10 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > > >>> A "Dime" is one tenth of a dollar. Or ten cents. Or $10 worth of drugs. >>> The coin is 17.91mm diameter, and the smallest coin in circulation. >>> A "Nickel" is five cents. or $5 worth of drugs. >>> The coin is 21.21mm, and is between a penny and a quarter in size. >> I'm broadly aware but I can never remember which is 5? and which is 10?. > > Think of the "dime" as a "deci" > > "nickel and dime" is used to mean small and irrelevant. > "nickel" and "dime" are also slang for $5 and $10 respectively, except in casinos, because while the casinos still had coin slot machines In terms of denominations that the US used, originally there was no nickel. There was a half-dime to represent $0.05. It was a silver coin half the size of the dime. The mint changed over to nickel because the half-dime was too small. The original nickel was almost identical to the $5 gold piece of the time, so with some simple chemistry (basically gold plating the nickel) you could pass it off as a $5 gold piece. The mint changed the design of the nickel so as to make the subterfuge more obvious to the causal observer. US coinage is littered with denominations that are no longer used: half-cent ($0.005) copper ?large? cent ($0.01 but the approximate size of a quarter but of copper instead of silver) 2 cent piece (copper) 3 cent piece (nickel) half-dime (silver) 20 cent piece (silver) And then of course there the gold coins: $1 (about the size of a dime) $5 (about the size of a nickel) $10 (about the size of a quarter) $20 (about the size of a half dollar) $50 (rare and about the size of a silver dollar) Each coin (be it silver or gold) was intended to approximately represent the value of the metal in the coin (that is a $10 gold coin was supposed to contain roughly $10 of gold). I believe at the time an ounce of silver was $1.25 and I believe gold was $32/oz. These are of course troy ounces - 12 troy ounces to a pound versus 16 avoirdupois ounce to a pound. TTFN - Guy From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 1 17:11:51 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 15:11:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR In-Reply-To: References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com> <2cc5ef71-eda2-2ddf-c3b1-af7dcf91b234@sydex.com> <3C958FC80A5443C0BB2AFEF417E32D63@teoPC> <027e01d52dea$4b6fc130$e24f4390$@com> , Message-ID: > Oh, but we are proud of our unremembered heritage, and fiercely resist > change. We still use Fahrenheit. And efforts to "go metric" have made > little headway. On Mon, 1 Jul 2019, dwight wrote: > Not every thing makes sense to go metric. Clearly bold sizes are better > off in fractional sizes. Also for wrenches. I have to have 13, 14 and 15 > mm wrenches. A 9/16 would have covered the entire range. I have a spot > on my car that I need a 23mm offset box wrench. What a pain. I find that an SAE set of wrenches and a metric set of wrenches tend to need similar quantities. German cars switched from 14mm to 13mm heads for 8mm bolts about 5 decades ago. Japanese use 12mm heads on 8mm bolts, and 13mm and 15mm are rare on Japanese cars. Unless you are dealing with vintage stuff - 10,13,15,17,19 for German cars; 10,12,14,17,19 for Japanese cars 16mm, 18mm seem rare. Whitworth is finally rare Yes, once you get above an inch, sizes are less standardized. 9/16 doesn't cover everything. It could, if you provided appropriate punishment for any use of a 17/32 or 19/32 bolt head. 1/4-20 bolts use 7/16" heads, which is about 11mm. But lately, I have encountered some 1/4-20 with 10mm heads! (Chinese specification change) From dave at 661.org Mon Jul 1 17:58:27 2019 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 22:58:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Need Fileware twiggy diskette picture for Wikipedia Message-ID: Someone informed me that the Fileware diskette image I uploaded to Wikipedia has unclear copyright status. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fileware-floppy.jpg. Would someone with a good specimen please scan it and upload to Wikipedia or send it to me? -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Jul 1 18:20:47 2019 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 17:20:47 -0600 Subject: Need Fileware twiggy diskette picture for Wikipedia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 4:58 PM David Griffith via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Someone informed me that the Fileware diskette image I uploaded to > Wikipedia has unclear copyright status. See > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fileware-floppy.jpg. Would someone > with a good specimen please scan it and upload to Wikipedia or send it to > me? > I hereby grant permission for my images of Apple FileWare ("Twiggy") and Verbatim Optima Series FileWare disks to be used under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License. images: http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/lisa/twiggy.html license: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_4.0_International_License I hold the copyright on the images but not, of course, on the original Apple and Verbatim materials. In my opinion, such use of images of the original Apple and Verbatim materials is fair use under US copyright law. However, I am not a lawyer. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jul 1 18:36:41 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 16:36:41 -0700 Subject: Need Fileware twiggy diskette picture for Wikipedia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5100cc8a-b7c0-6900-1329-f264b569bfb4@bitsavers.org> > I hereby grant permission for my images of 3M FileWare ("Twiggy")disk image to be used under the terms of the > Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License. > images: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/apple/disk/twiggy/photos/3M_Fileware.jpg > license: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Text_of_Creative_Commons_Attribution-ShareAlike_4.0_International_License > > I hold the copyright on the images but not, of course, on the original > Apple and Verbatim materials. In my opinion, such use of images of the > original Apple and Verbatim materials is fair use under US copyright law. > However, I am not a lawyer. > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jul 1 18:38:53 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 16:38:53 -0700 Subject: Need Fileware twiggy diskette picture for Wikipedia In-Reply-To: <5100cc8a-b7c0-6900-1329-f264b569bfb4@bitsavers.org> References: <5100cc8a-b7c0-6900-1329-f264b569bfb4@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 7/1/19 4:36 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > >> I hereby grant permission for my images of 3M FileWare ("Twiggy")disk image to be used under the terms of the >> Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International License. I just noticed the 3M disk has no index hole. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 1 22:34:15 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 20:34:15 -0700 Subject: NASA Ames (Moffet Field) Computation Division? Message-ID: Anyone know what hardware was at NASA Ames in the late 70s? I've got some tapes from there and would like to avoid guessing. --Chuck From pmackinlay at hotmail.com Mon Jul 1 22:59:49 2019 From: pmackinlay at hotmail.com (Patrick Mackinlay) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2019 03:59:49 +0000 Subject: RS2030 MIPS workstation Message-ID: I?ve only just joined cctalk, so apologies for the delayed response to this query from May, but I thought the information might be useful to others in future. I?m the person working on emulating MIPS workstations in MAME recently, and I?m a fair way through getting the Rx3230 model to a fully working state (Rx2030 is already working as of last month). For the MIPS Rx3230 systems, which use an M48T02, the mac address should be in the first 6 bytes of NVRAM. You can read/write the NVRAM through the boot monitor using the ?g? (get) and ?p? (put) commands. You also need to provide the ?-b? argument to specify byte width, and the relevant address. The NVRAM is mapped at 0x1d000000-0x1d001fff in the physical address space, but must also set the high bit to access it through kseg0. Each 32-bit word in that range corresponds to a single byte in the NVRAM, so the resulting commands will be something like: * g -b 0x9d000003 (read first byte of NVRAM) * g -b 0x9d000007 (read second byte of NVRAM) * ... Or conversely: * p -b 0x9d000003 0xff (write 0xff to first byte of NVRAM) I haven?t tried to decode the rest of the NVRAM for the Rx3230 at this point (although most of the monitor variables seem to be at offset 0x600-0x6a7), but at least I can see those are the bytes that are read from NVRAM and then written to the mac address of the LANCE, and setting them to a valid address makes the network layer in MAME behave as expected. -- Pat. From RichA at livingcomputers.org Mon Jul 1 13:55:55 2019 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 18:55:55 +0000 Subject: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR In-Reply-To: References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com> <2cc5ef71-eda2-2ddf-c3b1-af7dcf91b234@sydex.com> <3C958FC80A5443C0BB2AFEF417E32D63@teoPC> <027e01d52dea$4b6fc130$e24f4390$@com> Message-ID: <0fa9a23b8672404b826c62167b0531e3@livingcomputers.org> From: Fred Cisin Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2019 6:57 AM On Sat, 29 Jun 2019, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >> US currency is very confusing to me. All the notes seem to be the same size >> and colour, so you can't readily sort them. I mean, I know America doesn't >> believe in helping people when they're sick, but it wasn't until I visited >> that I realised you saved up particular hatred for the blind and >> partially-sighted and went out of your way to make life more difficult for >> them. > USA paper currency used to be the size of punchcards. So, if one were to > have a LOT of it, you could use the same trays, and counting machines, > etc. Do you suppose that Hollerith had a lot of paper currency? > "If Hollerith were alive today, how many birthdays would he have had?" > requires being aware that 1900 was NOT a leap year. Actually, Hollerith designed his card that size precisely so that storage drawers for bank notes could be used. >> You use nicknames for 2 denominations which most of us foreigners don't know >> -- I still don't know which is a "nickel" (which is a metal to me) and which >> is a "dime" (which is a Swedish chocolate-covered sweet bar, of which I'm >> very fond but can't eat because I'm overweight). > A "Dime" is one tenth of a dollar. Or ten cents. Or $10 worth of drugs. > The coin is 17.91mm diameter, and the smallest coin in circulation. The name comes from an old French coin (pre-Republic) > A "Nickel" is five cents. or $5 worth of drugs. > The coin is 21.21mm, and is between a penny and a quarter in size. The $0.05 coin is a nickel-copper alloy. At one time, an easy way to distinguish between US and Canadian nickels was that the nickel content in the Canadian coin was higher, enough so that a magnet would pick them up. In the 19th Century, $0.05 was a silver-copper alloy coin like the $0.10 dime, $0.25 quarter, and $0.50 half dollar. (The silver dollar was something like 0.997 pure silver.) There was a nickel-copper $0.03 coin called, astonishingly enough, a nickel. > "Silver Dollar pancakes" are actually larger than a silver dollar, but > nobody complains. >> And the base unit is a cent, but you call them "pennies", the base >> unit of _my_ old country's currency, and you didn't even put the >> symbol into ASCII. Yes, "cent" because they were $0.01. "Penny" because that was what the small coins were called. There was no need for ha'farthings, farthings, ha'pennies in the Brave New Decimal Currency! > Pennies used to be copper. Now, they are mostly zinc, due to copper > costing more than a penny. But, they managed to maintain the copper > color. During WW2, pennies were briefly made out of steel. Technically, they were bronze, a copper-tin alloy. In 1943, at the height of the war, zinc-coated steel pennies were issued. In 1944, there was a return to bronze, but the coins were a different color because expended artillery shells were melted down for the metal, and had a higher tin content. > 6 decades ago, pennies said "One Cent" on the back, with pictures of > wheat; then they changed to a picture of the Lincoln memorial, which is at > the end of Memorial bridge in Washington, DC. >From 1909 until 1959, the Lincoln penny had the wheat ears. (The nifty thing about the image of the Lincoln Memorial is that on new enough pennies one can see the statue of Lincoln in the center of the Memorial.) Sometime in the 1970s, IIRC, pennies became copper (or bronze) coated aluminum. Pennies will never stop being minted--the members of Congress representing the state of Illinois would not stand for it. Prior to 1909, for I forget how long and I'm not going to look it up, the obverse of the penny had an image of an "Indian" head--which was actually the image of the sculptor's daughter wearing a feather headdress. OB vious: Someone was an avid coin collector as a kid. Rich From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 2 00:54:17 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 22:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR In-Reply-To: <0fa9a23b8672404b826c62167b0531e3@livingcomputers.org> References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com> <2cc5ef71-eda2-2ddf-c3b1-af7dcf91b234@sydex.com> <3C958FC80A5443C0BB2AFEF417E32D63@teoPC> <027e01d52dea$4b6fc130$e24f4390$@com> <0fa9a23b8672404b826c62167b0531e3@livingcomputers.org> Message-ID: >> USA paper currency used to be the size of punchcards. So, if one were to >> have a LOT of it, you could use the same trays, and counting machines, >> etc. Do you suppose that Hollerith had a lot of paper currency? On Mon, 1 Jul 2019, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote: > Actually, Hollerith designed his card that size precisely so that storage > drawers for bank notes could be used. I deliberately inverted that, in a futile attempt at humor. >> Pennies used to be copper. Now, they are mostly zinc, due to copper >> costing more than a penny. But, they managed to maintain the copper >> color. During WW2, pennies were briefly made out of steel. > Technically, they were bronze, a copper-tin alloy. > Sometime in the 1970s, IIRC, pennies became copper (or bronze) coated aluminum. I've always heard copper plated zinc from 1982 on. They seem a little too heavy to be aluminum, although the newer pennies are slightly lighter. The Wikipedia article says that 1.5 million were made of aluminum in 1974, and then that was rejected, and supports the copper plated zinc that I had heard. > Pennies will never stop being minted--the members of Congress representing the > state of Illinois would not stand for it. In spite of costing more to make them than they are worth. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Jul 2 06:09:36 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2019 11:09:36 +0000 Subject: NASA Ames (Moffet Field) Computation Division? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7/1/19 11:34 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Anyone know what hardware was at NASA Ames in the late 70s? I've got > some tapes from there and would like to avoid guessing. > > --Chuck > I'm sure there was a lot, but at least some were VAX/VMS. bill From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Tue Jul 2 06:55:57 2019 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2019 21:55:57 +1000 Subject: NASA Ames (Moffet Field) Computation Division? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2 Jul 2019, at 1:34 pm, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Anyone know what hardware was at NASA Ames in the late 70s? I've got > some tapes from there and would like to avoid guessing. Well excitingly it was home to the Illiac IV supercomputer! supported by a Burroughs B6700 and DEC PDP-10, both would have had tape drives. The Illiac IV arrived at NASA Ames in 1975 and was decommissioned in 1982 so it covers your time period. Are there any annotations on the tape covers? From cym224 at gmail.com Tue Jul 2 07:26:06 2019 From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2019 08:26:06 -0400 Subject: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR In-Reply-To: References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com> <2cc5ef71-eda2-2ddf-c3b1-af7dcf91b234@sydex.com> <3C958FC80A5443C0BB2AFEF417E32D63@teoPC> <027e01d52dea$4b6fc130$e24f4390$@com> Message-ID: On 01/07/2019, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote (in part): > On Mon, 1 Jul 2019 at 14:01, William Donzelli wrote (in part): >> There are still a few institutions and older folks that still use >> checks (like the annoying people that hold up the line in a grocery >> store, writing out a check), so the image deposit system is just an >> effort to cut down the foot traffic to banks. > > And freighting trucks full of cheques from bank to bank, I thought? Yes. Most FIs and clearing houses scan them in and transmit signed batches around, saving boatloads of money. The smaller FIs are still an exception. N. From rtomek at ceti.pl Tue Jul 2 08:38:11 2019 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2019 15:38:11 +0200 Subject: NASA Ames (Moffet Field) Computation Division? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20190702133811.GA16710@tau1.ceti.pl> On Mon, Jul 01, 2019 at 08:34:15PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Anyone know what hardware was at NASA Ames in the late 70s? I've got > some tapes from there and would like to avoid guessing. > > --Chuck I remember that few years ago someone wrote a short note about competing with NASA engineer on foo-bay for parts to be used in resuscitation of their PDP-11. So I guess they had a few in various locations forty years ago. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From leec2124 at gmail.com Tue Jul 2 09:04:14 2019 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2019 07:04:14 -0700 Subject: NASA Ames (Moffet Field) Computation Division? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Eugene Miya, not sure if he lurks here but I know he is on Facebook, would know off the top of his head. Lee C. On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 8:34 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Anyone know what hardware was at NASA Ames in the late 70s? I've got > some tapes from there and would like to avoid guessing. > > --Chuck > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 2 10:58:48 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2019 08:58:48 -0700 Subject: NASA Ames (Moffet Field) Computation Division? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <134340ec-49d7-75d3-831d-7a0cd9622b3b@sydex.com> On 7/2/19 4:55 AM, Nigel Williams wrote: > On 2 Jul 2019, at 1:34 pm, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: >> Anyone know what hardware was at NASA Ames in the late 70s? I've >> got some tapes from there and would like to avoid guessing. > Well excitingly it was home to the Illiac IV supercomputer! supported > by a Burroughs B6700 and DEC PDP-10, both would have had tape drives. > The Illiac IV arrived at NASA Ames in 1975 and was decommissioned in > 1982 so it covers your time period. > > Are there any annotations on the tape covers? I knew about the Illiac--I was acquainted with a few people on the project. I suspect that the tapes are far more pedestrian than that--they're almost certainly 7-track. Beyond that, nothing on the labels that could be considered to be meaningful. I'm wondering if these might be Univac 1100 series tapes. I'll know more when I get a chance to take a look at the things in a bit more detail --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jul 2 12:22:06 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2019 11:22:06 -0600 Subject: "half-dollar"/"50 cent piece" Was: Recovering the ROM of an IBM 5100 using OCR In-Reply-To: References: <20190627143009.1C56618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0AED4F64-BB54-42D7-BC9B-DEE3BA5EB58E@me.com> <2cc5ef71-eda2-2ddf-c3b1-af7dcf91b234@sydex.com> <3C958FC80A5443C0BB2AFEF417E32D63@teoPC> <027e01d52dea$4b6fc130$e24f4390$@com> <0fa9a23b8672404b826c62167b0531e3@livingcomputers.org> Message-ID: <656b9311-2404-fb84-f89c-f4d5d58f2b54@jetnet.ab.ca> On 7/1/2019 11:54 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> Pennies will never stop being minted--the members of Congress >> representing the >> state of Illinois would not stand for it. > > In spite of costing more to make them than they are worth. > The same could be said for Congresmen. :) From prd at decarchive.org Wed Jul 3 07:10:54 2019 From: prd at decarchive.org (Peter Dreisiger) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 14:10:54 +0200 Subject: Classic / NOP machines becoming available in Berlin (inc. DECs, Commodores, Apples, HPs, SGIs and more) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6C6B8F55-B02A-4DFC-9750-A2A3D7FC752E@decarchive.org> Dear all, Apologies for this semi-spam message from a long-time appreciator of classic computers and nostalgic obsolete products, but I hope this will be of interest to at least a few people here. So, yes, by way of context, I?ve been acquiring what I consider to be characterful and/or historically interesting computers for coming up to, maybe, 15 years now, with the intention of being able to curate multiple, interactive temporary exhibits on the history of computing, but since moving continents (amongst other things), my paths and passions have changed, so I am currently in the process of re-testing (and repairing) my machines, and will be trying to sell them off in the coming weeks and months. Under different circumstances, finding people (or groups) with similar interests and plans would have been an equal-first priority, but given my more recent ?life changes', sale price ? and the ability to better pursue my new focuses ? is now more of a factor. But before I list them on eBay (and/or by way of a heads up), I wanted to let people here know, just in case I have something that someone here particularly wants / needs / could use. The current list of systems I will be parting with is accessible at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QqUrO11gnn4fwAPDxqO_phKDt1M0O15G7wJxHoQrL9s but some (hopefully) highlights include (*big breath*): DEC: MicroPDP-11/53+; MicroVAX 2000; VAXstation 4000 VLC/60/90A/96; VAX 4000 100A, 105; DECstation 5000/240, 260 (MIPS-based); DEC 3000/300X; Personal Workstation 600au; AlphaServer 4100; AlphaServer DS20, DS25 systems; Letterwriter 100; VT 101, 220, 520 terminals HP: HP rx2800 Integrity2; 9000 715/100 and Visualize C110 PA-RISC systems SGI: Indy and O2 systems SUN: ELC, SPARCstation Voyager (the portable one), 5 and 20; Ultra 1; Ultra 5; Netra T1-105; Enterprise T5240 Apple: IIc, IIe Platinums, IIgs; Mac 512ke, Mac Pluses; SE/30 and Quadra 700s (also for running A/UX); iMac G3s and a G4 Commodore: PET 3000 systems, PET 8032-SK; various C64 / C64C and 128D systems; SX-64; Music Maker keyboards (the big one, inc. SFX modules); Amiga 1000 Apologies again, please feel free to contact me with any queries or reasonable offers, or even if you?d just like to be kept in the loop as more machines become available, and all the best. Thanks in advance, Peter From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Jul 3 07:39:39 2019 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 13:39:39 +0100 Subject: DecNet / Linux Message-ID: Say, can anyone tell me which version of the kernel was the last one to work with Decnet? Does anyone know what the actual issues are? My friend who does kernel stuff wants to know. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift From prd at decarchive.org Wed Jul 3 08:22:43 2019 From: prd at decarchive.org (Peter Dreisiger) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 15:22:43 +0200 Subject: Classic / NOP machines becoming available in Berlin (inc. DECs, Commodores, Apples, HPs, SGIs and more) In-Reply-To: <6C6B8F55-B02A-4DFC-9750-A2A3D7FC752E@decarchive.org> References: <6C6B8F55-B02A-4DFC-9750-A2A3D7FC752E@decarchive.org> Message-ID: <27EA3D99-F8D9-4D16-84DF-A46FB8CF6EE3@decarchive.org> On 3 Jul 2019, at 14:10, Peter Dreisiger wrote: *snip* > ... finding people (or groups) with similar interests and plans would have been an equal-first priority, but given my more recent ?life changes', sale price --- and the ability to better pursue my new focuses --- is now more of a factor. > > But before I list them on eBay (and/or by way of a heads up), I wanted to let people here know, just in case I have something that someone here particularly wants / needs / could use. The current list of systems I will be parting with is accessible at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QqUrO11gnn4fwAPDxqO_phKDt1M0O15G7wJxHoQrL9s but some (hopefully) highlights include (*big breath*): Argh, yet another apology, but responding to a few of the emails that have already come in, made me realise that I probably should?ve also stated: If you are (or know) a developer of an open source machine emulator who could use one of these machines --- particularly one of the more obscure ones --- please do get in touch, as the prospect of people being able to keep older / rarer operating systems and software running once the physical machines are not longer available or working /is/ actually still kinda important to me. Thanks, Peter From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Jul 3 11:22:51 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 10:22:51 -0600 Subject: DecNet / Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7545818c-eedc-c9a9-ede2-6acf0e77c29e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 7/3/19 6:39 AM, John Many Jars via cctalk wrote: > Say, can anyone tell me which version of the kernel was the last one to > work with Decnet? I was playing with DECnet in December '17, particularly for MAIL-11 in VMs running older Ubuntu. I got it to work well in 2.6.38. (At least I didn't see any issues.) I got it to sort of work in 3.8. (Some things worked, other things did not. I don't recall what did and did not.) > Does anyone know what the actual issues are? My friend who does kernel > stuff wants to know. I'll see if I can find any notes. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Jul 3 11:24:51 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 10:24:51 -0600 Subject: DecNet / Linux In-Reply-To: <7545818c-eedc-c9a9-ede2-6acf0e77c29e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <7545818c-eedc-c9a9-ede2-6acf0e77c29e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <9d1a3f9d-cbea-cf8a-0e86-ce14faed04e4@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 7/3/19 10:22 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I'll see if I can find any notes. Typical. As soon as I hit send, I find what I was looking for. Here's what I tweeted in December '17: """ I?ve managed to get DECnet working in Ubuntu 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, and 14. 9, 10, and 11 work with everything I know how to test. 12, 13, and 14 partially work. (dnlogin gets PTS / PTY errors.) 14 kernel panics when it pings itself, but other sources seem okay. """ There are other details in the thread: https://twitter.com/DrScriptt/status/941964472553414658 -- Grant. . . . unix || die From ed at groenenberg.net Wed Jul 3 08:05:16 2019 From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 15:05:16 +0200 (CEST) Subject: DecNet / Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <61500.92.70.5.67.1562159116.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> On Wed, July 3, 2019 14:39, John Many Jars via cctalk wrote: > Say, can anyone tell me which version of the kernel was the last one to > work with Decnet? > > Does anyone know what the actual issues are? My friend who does kernel > stuff wants to know. > > -- > Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" > Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net > > -------- > "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, > that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift > Kernel 2.6.32 was the last one to activly support Decnet. Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta 😆 From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Jul 3 11:52:43 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 10:52:43 -0600 Subject: DecNet / Linux In-Reply-To: <61500.92.70.5.67.1562159116.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> References: <61500.92.70.5.67.1562159116.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> Message-ID: <9eb992f5-e016-abf8-d133-ad27b5c50a63@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 7/3/19 7:05 AM, E. Groenenberg via cctalk wrote: > Kernel 2.6.32 was the last one to activly support Decnet. What does "actively support" mean? I got DECnet working in 2.6.38 with everything I tested. I got DECnet working to a lesser degree with 3.. (I can boot VMs and get specific versions if people want them.) I'm also happy to test things if people want me to. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Jul 3 12:25:08 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 17:25:08 +0000 Subject: DecNet / Linux In-Reply-To: <61500.92.70.5.67.1562159116.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> References: <61500.92.70.5.67.1562159116.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> Message-ID: On 7/3/19 9:05 AM, E. Groenenberg via cctalk wrote: > > > On Wed, July 3, 2019 14:39, John Many Jars via cctalk wrote: >> Say, can anyone tell me which version of the kernel was the last one to >> work with Decnet? >> >> Does anyone know what the actual issues are? My friend who does kernel >> stuff wants to know. >> >> -- >> Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" >> Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net >> >> -------- >> "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, >> that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift >> > > Kernel 2.6.32 was the last one to activly support Decnet. > > Ed > -- > Ik email, dus ik besta 😆 > Well, that confuses me. $ uname -r 4.15.0-50-generic And my system supports decnet just fine. I can connect to my VMS systems and I can connect to this Linux box from a DECServer 200. bill From shadoooo at gmail.com Wed Jul 3 12:30:23 2019 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 19:30:23 +0200 Subject: Classic / NOP machines becoming available in Berlin (inc. DECs, Commodores, Apples, HPs, SGIs and more) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Peter, you have a nice list of interesting things. I'm very interested in DEC machines, which I collect and repair for preservation purposes. Among others, I could be interested in those: DECmate assorted QBUS boards (do you have a list?) VAX 4000/90A VAX 4000/96 VAX 4000/100A VAX 4000/105 DEC RFxx disks, TK50 and TU58 tapes if available Commodore dual FFDs 4040 or 3040 Possibly Amiga 1000/1200/2000 for a friend of mine. I would have an idea about prices, however... If you prefer, please contact me privately. I see you here a long list of burnable ISOs. I already have several of those, but it would be very nice to merge with yours... could you share them somewhere over the net? Thanks Andrea From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Wed Jul 3 12:30:28 2019 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2019 18:30:28 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: DecNet / Linux In-Reply-To: References: <61500.92.70.5.67.1562159116.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> Message-ID: <01R8LXIM5ZWM8WY43U@beyondthepale.ie> Bill Gunshannon wrote: > Well, that confuses me. > > > $ uname -r > 4.15.0-50-generic > > And my system supports decnet just fine. I can connect > to my VMS systems and I can connect to this Linux box > from a DECServer 200. > Doesn't a DECServer 200 speak LAT rather than DECNet? Regards, Peter Coghlan. > bill From john at forecast.name Wed Jul 3 09:36:08 2019 From: john at forecast.name (John Forecast) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 10:36:08 -0400 Subject: DecNet / Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <25E2EB92-3BB9-445C-B945-5268D9463746@forecast.name> I have it running on a Raspberry Pi 3B+ with the latest Raspbian Buster release so that would be running kernel 4.19.50. Debian has not yet officially released Buster (this coming weekend I believe) so this is somewhat of a pre-release. Before anyone asks, there are still a couple of issues to track down and I plan to wait until the official release and some additional testing before putting the code on Github. John. > On Jul 3, 2019, at 8:39 AM, John Many Jars via cctalk wrote: > > Say, can anyone tell me which version of the kernel was the last one to > work with Decnet? > > Does anyone know what the actual issues are? My friend who does kernel > stuff wants to know. > > -- > Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" > Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net > > -------- > "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, > that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jul 3 12:51:16 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 13:51:16 -0400 Subject: DecNet / Linux In-Reply-To: <61500.92.70.5.67.1562159116.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> References: <61500.92.70.5.67.1562159116.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> Message-ID: > On Jul 3, 2019, at 9:05 AM, E. Groenenberg via cctalk wrote: > > Kernel 2.6.32 was the last one to activly support Decnet. Do you mean that in the sense of "it's listed in the documentation as a supported feature" -- rather than "it can be turned on and if you do that it works" ? paul From bob at jfcl.com Wed Jul 3 12:25:59 2019 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 10:25:59 -0700 Subject: DecNet / Linux In-Reply-To: <7545818c-eedc-c9a9-ede2-6acf0e77c29e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <7545818c-eedc-c9a9-ede2-6acf0e77c29e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <00a801d531c4$61d57db0$25807910$@com> On 7/3/19 6:39 AM, John Many Jars via cctalk wrote: > Say, can anyone tell me which version of the kernel was the last one to > work with Decnet? Version 4.4.x kernels (Ubuntu 16.04.x) and maybe later can be made to work with some tweaking. See http://rullf2.xs4all.nl/decnet/ Bob From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Jul 3 13:37:38 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 12:37:38 -0600 Subject: DecNet / Linux In-Reply-To: <00a801d531c4$61d57db0$25807910$@com> References: <7545818c-eedc-c9a9-ede2-6acf0e77c29e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <00a801d531c4$61d57db0$25807910$@com> Message-ID: On 7/3/19 11:25 AM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote: > Version 4.4.x kernels (Ubuntu 16.04.x) and maybe later can be made to > work with some tweaking. See http://rullf2.xs4all.nl/decnet/ Thank you for sharing that. I will file it away for future use. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From ed at groenenberg.net Wed Jul 3 13:31:51 2019 From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 20:31:51 +0200 (CEST) Subject: DecNet / Linux In-Reply-To: <9eb992f5-e016-abf8-d133-ad27b5c50a63@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <61500.92.70.5.67.1562159116.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> <9eb992f5-e016-abf8-d133-ad27b5c50a63@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <44472.10.10.10.2.1562178711.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> On Wed, July 3, 2019 18:52, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 7/3/19 7:05 AM, E. Groenenberg via cctalk wrote: >> Kernel 2.6.32 was the last one to activly support Decnet. > > What does "actively support" mean? > > I got DECnet working in 2.6.38 with everything I tested. > > I got DECnet working to a lesser degree with 3.. > > (I can boot VMs and get specific versions if people want them.) > > I'm also happy to test things if people want me to. > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > >From what I have been able to find out, 2.3.36 was the last 'official' release supporting DecNet. It's good to hear that later release work fine with it (even if it is to some point). Maybe it was silently maintained by others later on, who knows? Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta 😆 From ed at groenenberg.net Wed Jul 3 13:34:28 2019 From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 20:34:28 +0200 (CEST) Subject: DecNet / Linux In-Reply-To: <00a801d531c4$61d57db0$25807910$@com> References: <7545818c-eedc-c9a9-ede2-6acf0e77c29e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <00a801d531c4$61d57db0$25807910$@com> Message-ID: <44486.10.10.10.2.1562178868.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> On Wed, July 3, 2019 19:25, Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote: > > On 7/3/19 6:39 AM, John Many Jars via cctalk wrote: >> Say, can anyone tell me which version of the kernel was the last one to >> work with Decnet? > > Version 4.4.x kernels (Ubuntu 16.04.x) and maybe later can be made to > work with some tweaking. See http://rullf2.xs4all.nl/decnet/ > > Bob > > Very interesting! I've bookmarked the page. Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta 😆 From ed at groenenberg.net Wed Jul 3 13:36:53 2019 From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 20:36:53 +0200 (CEST) Subject: DecNet / Linux In-Reply-To: References: <61500.92.70.5.67.1562159116.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> Message-ID: <44492.10.10.10.2.1562179013.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> On Wed, July 3, 2019 19:51, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Jul 3, 2019, at 9:05 AM, E. Groenenberg via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> Kernel 2.6.32 was the last one to activly support Decnet. > > Do you mean that in the sense of "it's listed in the documentation as a > supported feature" -- rather than "it can be turned on and if you do that > it works" ? > > paul > > Hello Paul. More like 'This kernel is the last one officially supporting DecnNet'. Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta 😆 From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Jul 3 14:05:52 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 13:05:52 -0600 Subject: DecNet / Linux In-Reply-To: <44472.10.10.10.2.1562178711.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> References: <61500.92.70.5.67.1562159116.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> <9eb992f5-e016-abf8-d133-ad27b5c50a63@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <44472.10.10.10.2.1562178711.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> Message-ID: On 7/3/19 12:31 PM, E. Groenenberg wrote: > It's good to hear that later release work fine with it (even if it is > to some point). > > Maybe it was silently maintained by others later on, who knows? I think there is a LOT of the Linux kernel that /still/ works by happenstance. As in the things that it depends on have not changed, thus it itself still works. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From john at forecast.name Wed Jul 3 16:10:11 2019 From: john at forecast.name (John Forecast) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 17:10:11 -0400 Subject: DecNet / Linux In-Reply-To: <44472.10.10.10.2.1562178711.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> References: <61500.92.70.5.67.1562159116.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> <9eb992f5-e016-abf8-d133-ad27b5c50a63@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <44472.10.10.10.2.1562178711.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> Message-ID: <4265BC9D-AC40-4B1F-AC65-753B43A48F3C@forecast.name> > On Jul 3, 2019, at 2:31 PM, E. Groenenberg via cctalk wrote: > > > > > On Wed, July 3, 2019 18:52, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> On 7/3/19 7:05 AM, E. Groenenberg via cctalk wrote: >>> Kernel 2.6.32 was the last one to activly support Decnet. >> >> What does "actively support" mean? >> >> I got DECnet working in 2.6.38 with everything I tested. >> >> I got DECnet working to a lesser degree with 3.. >> >> (I can boot VMs and get specific versions if people want them.) >> >> I'm also happy to test things if people want me to. >> >> >> >> -- >> Grant. . . . >> unix || die >> > > From what I have been able to find out, 2.3.36 was the last 'official' > release supporting DecNet. > It's good to hear that later release work fine with it (even if it > is to some point). > > Maybe it was silently maintained by others later on, who knows? > There appears to some editing that?s done to make sure the code still compiles at least. On Raspbian between kernel 4.14 (about a year ago) and today?s kernel 4.19, the timer logic for delayed acks was removed, maybe because it used a kernel API which no longer exists. Unfortunately, the resulting system paniced as soon as one tried to create a logical link. (The removed code probably did change the implementation much since delayed ack is an optional feature in DECnet and Linux only implements a small part of it). John. > Ed > -- > Ik email, dus ik besta 😆 > > From rtomek at ceti.pl Wed Jul 3 18:33:19 2019 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2019 01:33:19 +0200 Subject: gunkies.org is down or?... Message-ID: <20190703233319.GB13429@tau1.ceti.pl> I have just noticed that. => (885 3): host gunkies.org Host gunkies.org not found: 3(NXDOMAIN) Looks like it fell off the edge of the world. Gog still has pages in cache, time of caching for one particular page I am reading is May 30th, 09:38:55 GMT. Is it really down? Could it come back? -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jul 3 18:40:17 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 19:40:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: gunkies.org is down or?... Message-ID: <20190703234017.44D6218C0EB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Tomasz Rola > Is it really down? Could it come back? Tore forgot to pay the bill for his DNS entry; this is the third year in a row the exact same thing has happened, on the exact same date! :-) :-( I've already sent him an email about it, this morning; hopefully he'll get with the program shortly. If I knew the IP address for gunkies (it used to be 92.242.140.2, not sure if it's still at that hosting service - the hosting and DNS entry are separate) I'd be really tempted to pay it myself - and switch the registration to myself in the process, so I can pay it in the future! Not sure how long a bill has to be unpaid before you can hijack an entry, though. Noel From db at db.net Wed Jul 3 18:48:15 2019 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 19:48:15 -0400 Subject: gunkies.org is down or?... In-Reply-To: <20190703234017.44D6218C0EB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190703234017.44D6218C0EB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20190703234815.GA27722@night.db.net> On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 07:40:17PM -0400, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Tomasz Rola > > > Is it really down? Could it come back? > > Tore forgot to pay the bill for his DNS entry; this is the third year in a row > the exact same thing has happened, on the exact same date! :-) :-( I've > already sent him an email about it, this morning; hopefully he'll get with the > program shortly. > > If I knew the IP address for gunkies (it used to be 92.242.140.2, not sure drill gunkies.org @ns1.dreamhost.com ;; ANSWER SECTION: gunkies.org. 14400 IN A 158.36.191.230 ::1 localhost localhost.my.domain 127.0.0.1 localhost localhost.my.domain 158.36.191.230 gunkies.org Works fine. - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jul 3 19:21:39 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 20:21:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: gunkies.org is down or?... Message-ID: <20190704002139.B34F018C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Diane Bruce > Works fine. Probably a left-over cached entry; neither my ISP's DNS, nor MIT's ("Host gunkies.org not found: 3(NXDOMAIN)") can resolve it at the moment. One year Tore was off hiking or something, and it took a few days, but past experience is that he will get to it. (But I'd like to not have to depend on him.) Noel From rtomek at ceti.pl Wed Jul 3 20:57:04 2019 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2019 03:57:04 +0200 Subject: gunkies.org is down or?... In-Reply-To: <20190704002139.B34F018C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190704002139.B34F018C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20190704015704.GC13429@tau1.ceti.pl> On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 08:21:39PM -0400, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Diane Bruce > > > Works fine. > > Probably a left-over cached entry; neither my ISP's DNS, nor MIT's ("Host > gunkies.org not found: 3(NXDOMAIN)") can resolve it at the moment. Yeah. And so it cannot be resolved on my end either. While dig @ns1.dreamhost.com does the job. However, I have added this line to my /etc/hosts: 158.36.191.230 gunkies.org www.gunkies.org And now it works. :-) -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From db at db.net Thu Jul 4 06:19:53 2019 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2019 07:19:53 -0400 Subject: gunkies.org is down or?... In-Reply-To: <20190704015704.GC13429@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20190704002139.B34F018C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20190704015704.GC13429@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <20190704111953.GA32441@night.db.net> On Thu, Jul 04, 2019 at 03:57:04AM +0200, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 08:21:39PM -0400, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > > From: Diane Bruce > > > > > Works fine. > > > > Probably a left-over cached entry; neither my ISP's DNS, nor MIT's ("Host > > gunkies.org not found: 3(NXDOMAIN)") can resolve it at the moment. > > Yeah. And so it cannot be resolved on my end either. While dig > @ns1.dreamhost.com does the job. However, I have added this line to my > /etc/hosts: > > 158.36.191.230 gunkies.org www.gunkies.org Which is exactly what I did to make it work. I thought that was clear from my original email. Of course now it is now unnecessary. > > -- > Regards, > Tomasz Rola > Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jul 4 06:49:16 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2019 07:49:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: gunkies.org is down or?... Message-ID: <20190704114916.EECED18C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > Tomasz Rola > However, I have added this line to my /etc/hosts: L-rd, I must be getting old - it never dawned on me to do that. Anyway, that shows the server was fine, it was just the missing DNS entry. Back now. Noel From rtomek at ceti.pl Thu Jul 4 11:22:03 2019 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2019 18:22:03 +0200 Subject: gunkies.org is down or?... In-Reply-To: <20190704111953.GA32441@night.db.net> References: <20190704002139.B34F018C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20190704015704.GC13429@tau1.ceti.pl> <20190704111953.GA32441@night.db.net> Message-ID: <20190704162203.GA17344@tau1.ceti.pl> On Thu, Jul 04, 2019 at 07:19:53AM -0400, Diane Bruce wrote: > On Thu, Jul 04, 2019 at 03:57:04AM +0200, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: [...] > > > > 158.36.191.230 gunkies.org www.gunkies.org > > Which is exactly what I did to make it work. I thought that was clear > from my original email. Of course now it is now unnecessary. I overlooked this part of your mail, but it is there, yes. But it was not all that obvious to me. I had to glaze at monitor for a long while before it occured to me that I had already been doing such edits during last twenty-umph years as a "home admin". Seems like my consciousness overlooked that part while subcons integrated it and "served a solution" to the higher ups. Just like it happens in real life, I hear. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From rtomek at ceti.pl Thu Jul 4 11:30:36 2019 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2019 18:30:36 +0200 Subject: gunkies.org is down or?... In-Reply-To: <20190704114916.EECED18C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190704114916.EECED18C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20190704163036.GB17344@tau1.ceti.pl> On Thu, Jul 04, 2019 at 07:49:16AM -0400, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > Tomasz Rola > > > However, I have added this line to my /etc/hosts: > > L-rd, I must be getting old - it never dawned on me to do that. Anyway, > that shows the server was fine, it was just the missing DNS entry. I would say, those who learn are young :-). The trick is just a temporary fix, but one can live without DNS for a while, as far as I can tell (this kind of web usage would be truly classic in spirit). In older times just using the IP address would have sufficed, but nowadays we have multihost servers and one IP often answers to many names. Thus, a user software has to do proper incantations to the server, while a server does not really care where the user got an IP from, so it all works. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From db at db.net Thu Jul 4 14:33:09 2019 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2019 15:33:09 -0400 Subject: gunkies.org is down or?... In-Reply-To: <20190704162203.GA17344@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20190704002139.B34F018C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20190704015704.GC13429@tau1.ceti.pl> <20190704111953.GA32441@night.db.net> <20190704162203.GA17344@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <20190704193309.GA33955@night.db.net> On Thu, Jul 04, 2019 at 06:22:03PM +0200, Tomasz Rola wrote: > On Thu, Jul 04, 2019 at 07:19:53AM -0400, Diane Bruce wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 04, 2019 at 03:57:04AM +0200, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > [...] > > > > > > 158.36.191.230 gunkies.org www.gunkies.org > > > > Which is exactly what I did to make it work. I thought that was clear > > from my original email. Of course now it is now unnecessary. > > I overlooked this part of your mail, but it is there, yes. But it was > not all that obvious to me. I had to glaze at monitor for a long while > before it occured to me that I had already been doing such edits > during last twenty-umph years as a "home admin". Seems like my > consciousness overlooked that part while subcons integrated it and Heh I was sure I said "Put it into /etc/hosts" temporarily. Of course it was fixed properly in the morning. I was curious about what was at gunkies.org so I had to look. ;) > "served a solution" to the higher ups. Just like it happens in real > life, I hear. Yep! > > -- > Regards, > Tomasz Rola > > -- > ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** > ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** > ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** > ** ** > ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** Diane Bruce -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Jul 5 12:33:38 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 13:33:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: gunkies.org is down or?... Message-ID: <20190705173338.C9ACB18C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Tomasz Rola > Is it really down? I suppose this is actually good news, in a way - someone must have been trying to use it, to notice that it was down! :-) So let me take this opportunity to appeal once again for people to contribute content; I've added a lot of PDP-11 stuff, and Lars and I sporadically add PDP-10 stuff (not that very many actually have a hardware -10 :-), but _everything else_ could use more content. So if you have a particular focus - please consider contributing your knowledge in that area! Noel From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jul 5 12:46:30 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 11:46:30 -0600 Subject: gunkies.org is down or?... In-Reply-To: <20190705173338.C9ACB18C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190705173338.C9ACB18C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 7/5/2019 11:33 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Tomasz Rola > > > Is it really down? > > I suppose this is actually good news, in a way - someone must have been > trying to use it, to notice that it was down! :-) > > So let me take this opportunity to appeal once again for people to contribute > content; I've added a lot of PDP-11 stuff, and Lars and I sporadically add > PDP-10 stuff (not that very many actually have a hardware -10 :-), but > _everything else_ could use more content. So if you have a particular focus - > please consider contributing your knowledge in that area! > > Noel It looks up from here. Wow all those banks of EVIL computers behind that man in the photo. Ben. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Jul 5 16:05:32 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 15:05:32 -0600 Subject: Email delivery protocols / methods. Message-ID: Here's pot stirrer for a holiday Friday afternoon: How many different protocols / methods can we collectively come up with for how email can be transferred? I'm primarily thinking about between servers (MTA-to-MTA). But I'm also willing to accept servers and clients (MTA-to-MUA). Where you can / could run at least one server yourself. ? SMTP(S) ? UUCP (rmail) ? MMDF ? X.400 ? Microsoft Exchange proprietary protocol ? Novell GroupWise proprietary protocol ? Lotus (IBM) Domino proprietary protocol ? FidoNet (FTN) ? BITNET ? Direct file access - group Post Office ? Direct file access - mail spool -- Grant. . . . unix || die From drb at msu.edu Fri Jul 5 16:09:13 2019 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2019 17:09:13 -0400 Subject: Email delivery protocols / methods. In-Reply-To: (Your message of Fri, 05 Jul 2019 15:05:32 -0600.) References: Message-ID: <20190705210913.552EB22A765@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > ? SMTP(S) FTP was used before SMTP existed. De From db at db.net Fri Jul 5 16:10:12 2019 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 17:10:12 -0400 Subject: Email delivery protocols / methods. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20190705211012.GA50410@night.db.net> On Fri, Jul 05, 2019 at 03:05:32PM -0600, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Here's pot stirrer for a holiday Friday afternoon: > > How many different protocols / methods can we collectively come up with > for how email can be transferred? > > I'm primarily thinking about between servers (MTA-to-MTA). But I'm also > willing to accept servers and clients (MTA-to-MUA). Where you can / > could run at least one server yourself. > > ? SMTP(S) > ? UUCP (rmail) > ? MMDF > ? X.400 > ? Microsoft Exchange proprietary protocol > ? Novell GroupWise proprietary protocol > ? Lotus (IBM) Domino proprietary protocol > ? FidoNet (FTN) > ? BITNET > ? Direct file access - group Post Office > ? Direct file access - mail spool > > FTP > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From db at db.net Fri Jul 5 16:26:11 2019 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 17:26:11 -0400 Subject: Email delivery protocols / methods. In-Reply-To: <20190705210913.552EB22A765@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20190705210913.552EB22A765@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20190705212611.GA50517@night.db.net> On Fri, Jul 05, 2019 at 05:09:13PM -0400, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > > ? SMTP(S) > > FTP was used before SMTP existed. yep ;) > > De -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From athornton at gmail.com Fri Jul 5 13:38:56 2019 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 11:38:56 -0700 Subject: Question about Apple /// Message-ID: I have an Apple /// that I've had for many years; it's never worked. When you power it up, you get a checkerboard screen, where half the squares are solid white, and the other half have a little mosaic pattern in them. Looks like this: https://share.icloud.com/photos/0NHNkEG9ssPsi65ojivBteKaQ Does this failure mode ring any bells? Obviously the video signal is being generated well enough to sync a composite output. Any idea whether I should start by replacing the CPU or the ROMs? Adam From cctalk at snarc.net Fri Jul 5 15:52:19 2019 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 16:52:19 -0400 Subject: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West Message-ID: <58df4593-06fa-5eb1-ae8f-49c9103b1add@snarc.net> Today I can announce that 10 original Apple 1 computers will be displayed at VCF West, and we're working on getting more. Several of these will be up-and-running. Original and current owners will join early Apple employees in a panel to discuss the computers, why they were purchased, how they were used, and what the owners plan to do in the future. So, buy your tickets online now. :) http://vcfed.org/wp/festivals/vintage-computer-festival-west/ -Evan From jecel at merlintec.com Fri Jul 5 16:21:24 2019 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 18:21:24 -0300 Subject: Question about Apple /// In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20190705212128.DD8561B00FE6@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Adam Thornton wrote on Fri, 5 Jul 2019 11:38:56 -0700 > I have an Apple /// that I've had for many years; it's never worked. > > When you power it up, you get a checkerboard screen, where half the squares > are solid white, and the other half have a little mosaic pattern in them. > > Looks like this: > https://share.icloud.com/photos/0NHNkEG9ssPsi65ojivBteKaQ > > Does this failure mode ring any bells? Obviously the video signal is being > generated well enough to sync a composite output. Any idea whether I > should start by replacing the CPU or the ROMs? You have 40 by 24 very crisp characters there, so I would guess everything about the video is ok. DRAMs are supposed to have random data in them when power is first applied but that is not normally the case. Instead half of the bits tend to always come up as 0 and the other half as 1. These are normally in alternating rows inside the DRAM (all 1s in one row and all 0s in the next row) which often leads to a checkerboard pattern when used as a frame buffer. Normally the various DRAMs in a byte don't have the exact same pattern so you might get different colors or characters than 00h and FFh. This indicates that the processor never wrote anything to the framebuffer, so a bad CPU or ROM is likely though other chips could also cause the software to not execute properly. Given the Apple /// design it is very likely that all the clocks are good. Another defect that leads to a similar visual effect is if the character ROM is bad, but then you tend to have a uniform screen and not the checkerboard. The Apple /// is infamous for having chips work their way out of their sockets due to heat, so you might start off checking for that. -- Jecel From drb at msu.edu Fri Jul 5 16:28:48 2019 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2019 17:28:48 -0400 Subject: Email delivery protocols / methods. In-Reply-To: (Your message of Fri, 05 Jul 2019 15:05:32 -0600.) References: Message-ID: <20190705212849.2D6E622A790@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > ? FidoNet (FTN) As long as we're being silly, this isn't really one protocol. There are a number of different ones, which can probably mostly be characterized as thin wrappers (FTS-0001, Yoohoo(/2u2), etc) around common file transfer protocols (zmodem, xmodem, and others). De From newsgroups at micromuseum.co.uk Fri Jul 5 16:39:09 2019 From: newsgroups at micromuseum.co.uk (newsgroups at micromuseum.co.uk) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 22:39:09 +0100 Subject: Email delivery protocols / methods. In-Reply-To: <20190705212849.2D6E622A790@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20190705212849.2D6E622A790@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <000001d5337a$162cd040$428670c0$@micromuseum.co.uk> This is tedious. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Dennis Boone via cctalk Sent: 05 July 2019 22:29 To: Grant Taylor ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Email delivery protocols / methods. > ? FidoNet (FTN) As long as we're being silly, this isn't really one protocol. There are a number of different ones, which can probably mostly be characterized as thin wrappers (FTS-0001, Yoohoo(/2u2), etc) around common file transfer protocols (zmodem, xmodem, and others). De From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Jul 5 16:40:05 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 22:40:05 +0100 Subject: Email delivery protocols / methods. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <062301d5337a$36c58a40$a4509ec0$@gmail.com> These days Microsoft Exchange uses SMTP Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Grant Taylor via > cctalk > Sent: 05 July 2019 22:06 > To: cctalk > Subject: Email delivery protocols / methods. > > Here's pot stirrer for a holiday Friday afternoon: > > How many different protocols / methods can we collectively come up with > for how email can be transferred? > > I'm primarily thinking about between servers (MTA-to-MTA). But I'm also > willing to accept servers and clients (MTA-to-MUA). Where you can / could > run at least one server yourself. > > ? SMTP(S) > ? UUCP (rmail) > ? MMDF > ? X.400 > ? Microsoft Exchange proprietary protocol > ? Novell GroupWise proprietary protocol > ? Lotus (IBM) Domino proprietary protocol > ? FidoNet (FTN) > ? BITNET > ? Direct file access - group Post Office > ? Direct file access - mail spool > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Jul 5 16:40:27 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 21:40:27 +0000 Subject: Email delivery protocols / methods. In-Reply-To: <20190705212849.2D6E622A790@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20190705212849.2D6E622A790@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On 7/5/19 5:28 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > > ? FidoNet (FTN) > > As long as we're being silly, this isn't really one protocol. There are > a number of different ones, which can probably mostly be characterized > as thin wrappers (FTS-0001, Yoohoo(/2u2), etc) around common file > transfer protocols (zmodem, xmodem, and others). > Well, if the idea is to get that silly, UUCP isn't one protocol either. And, technically. it isn't for moving email at all. Like FTP it is for moving files. It is what happens after the files have been moved that makes email, email. bill From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Jul 5 17:24:28 2019 From: barythrin at gmail.com (John Herron) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 17:24:28 -0500 Subject: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West In-Reply-To: <58df4593-06fa-5eb1-ae8f-49c9103b1add@snarc.net> References: <58df4593-06fa-5eb1-ae8f-49c9103b1add@snarc.net> Message-ID: That is amazing. When do you ever get a photo op with a bunch of apple 1 systems (which I hope is a thing). I thought the subject was a typo until I saw the sender lol On Fri, Jul 5, 2019, 4:27 PM Evan Koblentz via cctalk wrote: > Today I can announce that 10 original Apple 1 computers will be > displayed at VCF West, and we're working on getting more. Several of > these will be up-and-running. Original and current owners will join > early Apple employees in a panel to discuss the computers, why they were > purchased, how they were used, and what the owners plan to do in the > future. So, buy your tickets online now. :) > http://vcfed.org/wp/festivals/vintage-computer-festival-west/ > > -Evan > > From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Fri Jul 5 17:06:50 2019 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2019 23:06:50 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Email delivery protocols / methods. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <01R8P0V75KHG8WYEE1@beyondthepale.ie> Grant Taylor wrote: > > Here's pot stirrer for a holiday Friday afternoon: > It's not a holiday in most of the world, including where I am, however... > > How many different protocols / methods can we collectively come up with > for how email can be transferred? > > I'm primarily thinking about between servers (MTA-to-MTA). But I'm also > willing to accept servers and clients (MTA-to-MUA). Where you can / > could run at least one server yourself. > > ? SMTP(S) > ? UUCP (rmail) > ? MMDF > ? X.400 > ? Microsoft Exchange proprietary protocol > ? Novell GroupWise proprietary protocol > ? Lotus (IBM) Domino proprietary protocol > ? FidoNet (FTN) > ? BITNET > BITNET isn't really a protocol. Perhaps you mean NJE which was the protocol used to implement the BITNET and related networks? Although I think BSMTP (batch SMTP) was usually used to transfer mail over NJE networks. (Speaking of which, anyone want to join an NJE network?) > > ? Direct file access - group Post Office > I'm not sure what this one is. Does it refer to POP/POP2/POP3? > > ? Direct file access - mail spool > I have no idea what this one is. "Mail spool" could mean mean all sorts of different things on all sorts of different systems. Another one was the coloured book protocol used between academic establishments over X.25 networks in the UK and Ireland and probably elsewhere, Grey maybe, I forget which, probably for the best. Then there is DECnet and/or Mail-11 depending on what level of protocol you are talking about. And phonenet which I often heard about but never saw. I worked for an email provider for about 15 years. We used just about every protocol you can think of to transfer mail to customers, including those already listed plus Kermit / X/Y/Zmodem / Blast (a file transfer package few seem to have heard of) wrapped up in protocols we came up with ourselves which often also used stuff like Zip to compress the data for transmission. We used them to feed mail into all sorts of email systems long since come and gone, for example CCmail, Microsoft Mail and Pegasus Mail, to name but three from the 1990s. Perhaps it would be easier to come up with a list of protocols that were never used to transfer email? Fred! Help me out here! Regards, Peter Coghlan > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die Chris Long wrote: > > This is tedious. > Maybe so but it's not as tedious as your response. Btw, are we related? There are Longs in my family tree. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From abuse at cabal.org.uk Fri Jul 5 18:27:25 2019 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2019 01:27:25 +0200 Subject: Email delivery protocols / methods. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20190705232725.l6hmg3jb7mljetcr@mooli.org.uk> On Fri, Jul 05, 2019 at 03:05:32PM -0600, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: [...] > How many different protocols / methods can we collectively come up with for > how email can be transferred? I use rsync (over ssh) for transferring between a couple of my mail servers. It is perhaps one of my favourite pieces of software and I must have shifted many hundreds of terabytes with it by now. Andrew Tridgell's well-earned PhD thesis where he describes rsync and the related technologies he invented is, unlike most theses, actually readable and quite interesting if you're into that sort of thing. From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jul 5 18:40:47 2019 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 18:40:47 -0500 Subject: Email delivery protocols / methods. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 5, 2019, 16:05 Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Here's pot stirrer for a holiday Friday afternoon: > > How many different protocols / methods can we collectively come up with > for how email can be transferred? > > I'm primarily thinking about between servers (MTA-to-MTA). But I'm also > willing to accept servers and clients (MTA-to-MUA). Where you can / > could run at least one server yourself. > > ? SMTP(S) > ? UUCP (rmail) > ? MMDF > ? X.400 > ? Microsoft Exchange proprietary protocol > ? Novell GroupWise proprietary protocol > ? Lotus (IBM) Domino proprietary protocol > ? FidoNet (FTN) > ? BITNET > ? Direct file access - group Post Office > ? Direct file access - mail spool > I have vague memories of batch email transfer utilities from the BBS world. They were readers and/or transfer agents, but I imagine some had their own transfer protocols and file formats. The only two I can recall at the moment were QWK and Blue Wave. This probably has some tie-in to FIDOnet as well. In Tedium, j > From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Jul 5 19:16:07 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2019 00:16:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West In-Reply-To: References: <58df4593-06fa-5eb1-ae8f-49c9103b1add@snarc.net> Message-ID: <790308787.2265831.1562372167664@mail.yahoo.com> real or replica? we? might like a? replica for display..oddly though with the thousands? of piles of boards heck we may even have a real one... never bothered to look for one in the STUFF! My classic? mode is? if I do not know what it is? put it in a box and look at later...and that? stuff goes back to 1979.... Ed# In a message dated 7/5/2019 3:24:46 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: That is amazing. When do you ever get a photo op with a bunch of apple 1 systems (which I hope is a thing). I thought the subject was a typo until I saw the sender lol On Fri, Jul 5, 2019, 4:27 PM Evan Koblentz via cctalk wrote: > Today I can announce that 10 original Apple 1 computers will be > displayed at VCF West, and we're working on getting more. Several of > these will be up-and-running. Original and current owners will join > early Apple employees in a panel to discuss the computers, why they were > purchased, how they were used, and what the owners plan to do in the > future. So, buy your tickets online now. :) > http://vcfed.org/wp/festivals/vintage-computer-festival-west/ > > -Evan > > From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Jul 5 19:45:35 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2019 00:45:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West In-Reply-To: <327535de-62ef-c424-72dd-43e54370e2c4@snarc.net> References: <58df4593-06fa-5eb1-ae8f-49c9103b1add@snarc.net> <790308787.2265831.1562372167664@mail.yahoo.com> <327535de-62ef-c424-72dd-43e54370e2c4@snarc.net> Message-ID: <1623202381.2272238.1562373935933@mail.yahoo.com> Time? to? start? sorting? boards!Although...? I? am not? sure? if I will live long enough to get though all of it... What? are the? replicas? ?gong? for? Evan? Ed# In a message dated 7/5/2019 5:21:17 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at snarc.net writes: > real or replica? Real! That's the whole point. > we? might like a? replica for display..oddly though with the thousands? of piles of boards heck we may even have a real one... never bothered to look for one in the STUFF! > My classic? mode is? if I do not know what it is? put it in a box and look at later...and that? stuff goes back to 1979.... Ed# You could be sitting on $400K-$1,000,000. That's the current range of decent-condition Apple 1 boards. From cctalk at snarc.net Fri Jul 5 18:20:58 2019 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 19:20:58 -0400 Subject: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West In-Reply-To: References: <58df4593-06fa-5eb1-ae8f-49c9103b1add@snarc.net> Message-ID: > When do you ever get a photo op with a bunch of apple 1 systems (which > I hope is a thing). Definitely! > I thought the subject was a typo until I saw the sender lol :) From jim.manley at gmail.com Fri Jul 5 18:28:09 2019 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 17:28:09 -0600 Subject: Question about Apple /// In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The first 15,000, or so, Apple ///s had a problem where the very large, dense, poorly mechanically-supported motherboard would warp as it heated up after power-on. That resulted in ICs popping up in sockets enough to break contact, as well as micro-cracks in printed circuit board traces. The warping would occur after about 10 - 15 minutes badly enough to cause the problems. Apple quietly replaced those systems when people brought them in, including mine. If any of the ICs on your board have popped up enough to cause problems, reinserting them may not be enough to fix the problem. High humidity and fine dust can cause socket contacts to become corroded or dirty, making operation of the computer flaky. Micro-cracks occur as the board warps while heating up and stretches the traces on the expanding side of the board. They open when expansion is sufficient and close when the board cools down enough, generally causing operation to cease and resume after a fairly constant amount of of time being powered on and powered off, dependent on the ambient temperature. The warmer it is, the shorter the time, and vice versa when it?s cooler. One potential solution, if the warping is occurring, is to remove the board and drill the mounting holes out to slightly enlarge them. Then, when remounting the board, don?t fully tighten the screws, allowing the board to ?float? and expand without pushing against the screws and warping. It?s possible that at least one hole is being used as a connection to the metal base as a frame ground, which helps reduce RF emissions that might interfere with very sensitive devices, especially nearby and/or on the same AC power circuit. Not tightening associated screws might prevent that interference-reduction from occurring, but, that?s secondary to solving the failure to boot. ICs can be swapped out one at a time with those in a known working board, if one IC has failed. However, extreme care in not bending any pins when reinserting them must be performed. If more than one has failed, the combinatorics of the number of swaps needed increase exponentially with the number of failed components. Use of an o scope, logic analyzer, etc., along with extensive digital signal troubleshooting knowledge (especially without documentation, including schematics and timing diagrams) may be the only recourse. Should you or any of the IM Force be caught or killed, The Secretary will disavow any knowledge of your actions. This device will self-destruct in five seconds. Good luck, Mr. Phelps. FFFFFFSHSHSHSHSSSSSSSSKIKIKIKIK!!! On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 12:39 PM Adam Thornton via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I have an Apple /// that I've had for many years; it's never worked. > > When you power it up, you get a checkerboard screen, where half the squares > are solid white, and the other half have a little mosaic pattern in them. > > Looks like this: > https://share.icloud.com/photos/0NHNkEG9ssPsi65ojivBteKaQ > > Does this failure mode ring any bells? Obviously the video signal is being > generated well enough to sync a composite output. Any idea whether I > should start by replacing the CPU or the ROMs? > > Adam > From cctalk at snarc.net Fri Jul 5 19:21:13 2019 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 20:21:13 -0400 Subject: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West In-Reply-To: <790308787.2265831.1562372167664@mail.yahoo.com> References: <58df4593-06fa-5eb1-ae8f-49c9103b1add@snarc.net> <790308787.2265831.1562372167664@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <327535de-62ef-c424-72dd-43e54370e2c4@snarc.net> > real or replica? Real! That's the whole point. > we? might like a? replica for display..oddly though with the thousands? of piles of boards heck we may even have a real one... never bothered to look for one in the STUFF! > My classic? mode is? if I do not know what it is? put it in a box and look at later...and that? stuff goes back to 1979.... Ed# You could be sitting on $400K-$1,000,000. That's the current range of decent-condition Apple 1 boards. From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Jul 5 19:47:39 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2019 00:47:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Question about Apple /// In-Reply-To: <20190705212128.DD8561B00FE6@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> References: <20190705212128.DD8561B00FE6@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Message-ID: <1136038457.2257762.1562374059115@mail.yahoo.com> Bad video memory? Our? Lisa? does? that? too... I? just? leave it? shit? off (grin!) Ed#In a message dated 7/5/2019 2:28:31 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctech at classiccmp.org writes: Adam Thornton wrote on Fri, 5 Jul 2019 11:38:56 -0700 > I have an Apple /// that I've had for many years; it's never worked. > > When you power it up, you get a checkerboard screen, where half the squares > are solid white, and the other half have a little mosaic pattern in them. > > Looks like this: > https://share.icloud.com/photos/0NHNkEG9ssPsi65ojivBteKaQ > > Does this failure mode ring any bells?? Obviously the video signal is being > generated well enough to sync a composite output.? Any idea whether I > should start by replacing the CPU or the ROMs? You have 40 by 24 very crisp characters there, so I would guess everything about the video is ok. DRAMs are supposed to have random data in them when power is first applied but that is not normally the case. Instead half of the bits tend to always come up as 0 and the other half as 1. These are normally in alternating rows inside the DRAM (all 1s in one row and all 0s in the next row) which often leads to a checkerboard pattern when used as a frame buffer. Normally the various DRAMs in a byte don't have the exact same pattern so you might get different colors or characters than 00h and FFh. This indicates that the processor never wrote anything to the framebuffer, so a bad CPU or ROM is likely though other chips could also cause the software to not execute properly. Given the Apple /// design it is very likely that all the clocks are good. Another defect that leads to a similar visual effect is if the character ROM is bad, but then you tend to have a uniform screen and not the checkerboard. The Apple /// is infamous for having chips work their way out of their sockets due to heat, so you might start off checking for that. -- Jecel From cctalk at snarc.net Fri Jul 5 19:48:01 2019 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 20:48:01 -0400 Subject: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West In-Reply-To: <1623202381.2272238.1562373935933@mail.yahoo.com> References: <58df4593-06fa-5eb1-ae8f-49c9103b1add@snarc.net> <790308787.2265831.1562372167664@mail.yahoo.com> <327535de-62ef-c424-72dd-43e54370e2c4@snarc.net> <1623202381.2272238.1562373935933@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <919da89d-957f-3e21-99e4-e1643f0e53fb@snarc.net> > What? are the? replicas? ?gong? for Evan? A perfect reproduction -- for example a Mimeo will entirely date-code-correct components -- can go for four figures. Most repros/replicas aren't at that level. From guykd at optusnet.com.au Sat Jul 6 02:12:29 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2019 17:12:29 +1000 Subject: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West In-Reply-To: <327535de-62ef-c424-72dd-43e54370e2c4@snarc.net> References: <790308787.2265831.1562372167664@mail.yahoo.com> <58df4593-06fa-5eb1-ae8f-49c9103b1add@snarc.net> <790308787.2265831.1562372167664@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190706171229.01212100@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 08:21 PM 5/07/2019 -0400, you wrote: >You could be sitting on $400K-$1,000,000. That's the current range of >decent-condition Apple 1 boards. I just _love_ being reminded of the circumstances of my NOT buying an Apple I, and what that mistake cost me. http://everist.org/NobLog/20181001_missing_wave.htm Guy From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Jul 6 01:55:03 2019 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2019 02:55:03 -0400 Subject: Question about Apple /// In-Reply-To: <20190705212128.DD8561B00FE6@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> References: <20190705212128.DD8561B00FE6@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Message-ID: > > > > > > > Looks like this: > > https://share.icloud.com/photos/0NHNkEG9ssPsi65ojivBteKaQ > > > > Does this failure mode ring any bells? Obviously the video signal is > being > > generated well enough to sync a composite output. Any idea whether I > > should start by replacing the CPU or the ROMs? > > > > The Apple /// is infamous for having chips work their way out of their > sockets due to heat, so you might start off checking for that. > > -- Jecel > Aside from the chips/sockets fix, verify that the keyboard light comes on. If the bulb is dead the system will not boot (someone can "2nd" this). Verify that the keyboard reset key is not stuck. Overall I'd find a working system and compare/contrast voltages at key obvious points. Verify your boot media and disk drive are OK by comparing with a known-working system. Where are you located? Maybe someone near you can offer to assist. Bill From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Jul 6 07:46:21 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2019 08:46:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Email delivery protocols / methods. Message-ID: <20190706124621.28B7518C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Grant Taylor > How many different protocols / methods can we collectively come up with > for how email can be transferred?' Hey, this is the classic computers list, so you should only list early stuff, (say pre-1990), and leave out all the modern crap (but I repeat myself). So here's one I'm not sure anyone else will catch: TFTP has an email mode! Why? Well, FTP is gargantuan (compared to TFTP) and needs a working TCP to boot, so if all you have is a working TFTP, and no email... Noel From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Jul 6 05:17:41 2019 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2019 12:17:41 +0200 Subject: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: l?rdag 6 juli 2019 skrev Bill Degnan via cctech : > Hi...I am arriving at Gatwick Airport this weds evening1045pm and I have a > 17 hour layover. I'd like to visit the national computer museum at > bletchley park about an hour north. I see I can rent a car from the > airport and drive to a hotel near the museum. There are a few hotels with > 24/7 desks. Concerns? Total time in England is 17 hours, 8 of which > needed for sleep, plus travel to and from the airport and museum. Not sure > how efficient the car rental return process is, etc. Need some buffer for > unknowns > Thanks in advance When I visited Bletchley park and TNMOC I went by train from London. Euston I believe. From Gatwick there are trains to Victoria which are quite quick. I have never driven myself in London, but has been going with taxi a number of times from the airports in the London area. The traffic can be quite bad. Gatwick is south of London and Bletchley is north of London so expect some queues depending on time. /Mattis > Bill > From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Jul 6 05:18:40 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2019 10:18:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Question about Apple /// In-Reply-To: <1136038457.2257762.1562374059115@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20190705212128.DD8561B00FE6@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <1136038457.2257762.1562374059115@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <343119742.2321227.1562408320675@mail.yahoo.com> Opps....that was supposed to say shut off! In a message dated 7/5/2019 11:51:16 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctech at classiccmp.org writes: Bad video memory? Our? Lisa? does? that? too... I? just? leave it? shit? off (grin!) From abuse at cabal.org.uk Sat Jul 6 07:06:12 2019 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2019 14:06:12 +0200 Subject: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20190706120612.lyaakojszy2qhzs7@mooli.org.uk> On Sat, Jul 06, 2019 at 12:54:28PM +0300, Bill Degnan via cctech wrote: > Hi...I am arriving at Gatwick Airport this weds evening1045pm and I have a > 17 hour layover. I'd like to visit the national computer museum at > bletchley park about an hour north. [...] It's actually *two* hours north; three if you want to add a safety margin. Remember the old saying: 200 years is a long time in the USA, and 200 miles is a long way in the UK. I advise against driving, especially if you're unfamiliar with British roads. It will be both slower and more expensive than the train for this particular route because London is in the way. Petrol works out at over $7/gal, and you get to navigate the infamous M25 motorway-cum-car-park. It's debatable whether it will be more convenient. There are railway stations at both Gatwick and Bletchley. Bletchley Park is a 3 minute walk from the station. If you do the standard tourist thing at the ticket office/machine, they'll screw you to the tune of ?42.10 for an "any permitted" return ticket, which sends you on the Gatwick Express to the wrong side of London, the Tube back across London, and then another train to Bletchley. More changes between more modes of transport mean more risk of things going wrong. A "via Ken[sington] Olympia" ticket is ?28.80, which would be my preferred route anyway. Gatwick to Clapham Junction, a quick change to the next platform, then onward to Bletchley. You do not need to stop at or change at Olympia. Both train routes take about two hours; the Olympia one is less frequent and slower by a few minutes according to the optimistic routing models which think the Tube pays any sort of attention to the timetable, but tends to be faster in practice. You might consider buying the more expensive "any permitted" ticket anyway as insurance to give you more flexibility if things go wrong. Have a play with https://traintimes.org.uk/GTW/BLY, but if you don't change the date, it won't show you Olympia routes because they've closed the West London Line this weekend, ostensibly for maintenance, but possibly just spite. This won't be the case on Thursday when you're travelling. From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Jul 6 04:54:28 2019 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2019 12:54:28 +0300 Subject: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum Message-ID: Hi...I am arriving at Gatwick Airport this weds evening1045pm and I have a 17 hour layover. I'd like to visit the national computer museum at bletchley park about an hour north. I see I can rent a car from the airport and drive to a hotel near the museum. There are a few hotels with 24/7 desks. Concerns? Total time in England is 17 hours, 8 of which needed for sleep, plus travel to and from the airport and museum. Not sure how efficient the car rental return process is, etc. Need some buffer for unknowns Thanks in advance Bill From dab at froghouse.org Sat Jul 6 09:24:23 2019 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2019 10:24:23 -0400 Subject: Email delivery protocols / methods. In-Reply-To: <20190706124621.28B7518C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190706124621.28B7518C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <0725e00f-8a46-3586-5ed3-7ee38e476788@froghouse.org> On 7/6/19 8:46 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > So here's one I'm not sure anyone else will catch: TFTP has an email mode! I knew about that one. :-)? Did anyone other than CSR ever use it? Not much airplane news.? I've spent some time chasing down wheels and brakes for the Galaxie.? The designer is planning to use hubs and brakes designed for trailers and farm implement tires on his.? I was preferring more aircraft parts so I went off to find what I could in that direction.? It was more difficult than expected but, in the end, I have a plan that I think will work well.? The final part is axles and the designer says that with the specs I've found, he can machine up what I need. Been hearing more interest in running a KiCAD class at the MakerSpace so the past few days I've been putting together a more detailed outline of what I want to do there.? One of the things I came across is "back annotation" which is something I've wanted a few times.? This is where I do design-work on the circuit board and push that back to the schematic.? Where I've wanted it in the past is in wiring up connectors or the LEDs on the indicator panel boards.? In many cases I don't particularly care which goes to where as far as the electronics go but I want to make my life easier with the board layout.? On the QSIC I've had that with wiring which bus drivers go to which bus signals and I will have it big time with wiring between the FPGA and the bus.? Except for a couple signals that need to go to clock inputs on the FPGA, the rest all just go to any old I/O pin.? Need to go learn this back annotation thing before starting that. I have tinkered with the QSIC circuit board design some more and have the bus drivers all routed.? I didn't know about back annotation so I just did that by hand.? That is, I look at the circuit board to see what signals are crossed and flip back to the schematic to swap signals around and then back to the circuit board until everything routed easily as possible.? It was a pain but it's done and seems like a good job. I've also taken a stab at routing the signals from the FPGA to the memory chip.? That's a new and interesting challenge.? I've almost been able to do it with a 4-layer board. That plastic supply place that I'd talked about?? Turns out I had a brain fart reading their webpage and it's not in New London like I was thinking but Londonderry.? That means an hour and a half drive rather than a half hour drive.? Sigh.? At least it's still in the state. I heard a bit more from Greg up in Kantishna.? He had an AVM and a small brain bleed but says it's all fixed up now.? Still, he's grounded for at least a year and was asking about fill-in pilots.? I thought about it some and decided that I could go up later in the summer say August sometime, and then finish out the season.? He'd put the work out to a bunch of people and, last news I had, he was covered for now. And, holy crap, there was another accident in Ketchikan.? No fatalities on this one, fortunately, but it was the company that shares the dock with us so I almost certainly know the pilot.? Damn.? They'd just rebuilt that plane last winter too. I hope your summer is going well and you got lots of wood out of that tree that almost crushed your house. Dave From dab at froghouse.org Sat Jul 6 09:53:31 2019 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2019 10:53:31 -0400 Subject: Email delivery protocols / methods. In-Reply-To: <0725e00f-8a46-3586-5ed3-7ee38e476788@froghouse.org> References: <20190706124621.28B7518C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0725e00f-8a46-3586-5ed3-7ee38e476788@froghouse.org> Message-ID: <866fb954-d46a-d104-54b5-4022a85c441b@froghouse.org> Obviously that message wasn't supposed to go to the list.? I forget how the list re-writes the message headers like that.? Sorry about that. Dave From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Jul 6 10:44:26 2019 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2019 11:44:26 -0400 Subject: QSIC, was: Re: Email delivery protocols / methods. In-Reply-To: <866fb954-d46a-d104-54b5-4022a85c441b@froghouse.org> References: <20190706124621.28B7518C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0725e00f-8a46-3586-5ed3-7ee38e476788@froghouse.org> <866fb954-d46a-d104-54b5-4022a85c441b@froghouse.org> Message-ID: <91c07432-7389-aa0d-249a-edf28d5a2e61@e-bbes.com> On 2019-07-06 10:53, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote: > Obviously that message wasn't supposed to go to the list.? I forget how > the list re-writes the message headers like that.? Sorry about that. Don't worry. It fits the subject, "Email methods" ;-) And good to hear, you're making progress on the QSIC ... From nw.johnson at ieee.org Sat Jul 6 12:38:50 2019 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2019 13:38:50 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 58, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Anybody have any docs on the DEC LSI 11/93 (KDJ11-E)? I have a suspect one and am looking for schematics, configuration data etc. I am trying to run it in a BA23 backplane and seemingly geting bus hangs as is there is something that it is looking for that is not there! cheers, Nigel On 06/07/2019 13:00, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Send cctalk mailing list submissions to > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: gunkies.org is down or?... (Noel Chiappa) > 2. Re: gunkies.org is down or?... (ben) > 3. Email delivery protocols / methods. (Grant Taylor) > 4. Re: Email delivery protocols / methods. (Dennis Boone) > 5. Re: Email delivery protocols / methods. (Diane Bruce) > 6. Re: Email delivery protocols / methods. (Diane Bruce) > 7. Question about Apple /// (Adam Thornton) > 8. Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West (Evan Koblentz) > 9. Re: Question about Apple /// (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) > 10. Re: Email delivery protocols / methods. (Dennis Boone) > 11. RE: Email delivery protocols / methods. > (newsgroups at micromuseum.co.uk) > 12. RE: Email delivery protocols / methods. (Dave Wade) > 13. Re: Email delivery protocols / methods. (Bill Gunshannon) > 14. Re: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West (John Herron) > 15. Re: Email delivery protocols / methods. (Peter Coghlan) > 16. Re: Email delivery protocols / methods. (Peter Corlett) > 17. Re: Email delivery protocols / methods. (Jason T) > 18. Re: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West (ED SHARPE) > 19. Re: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West (ED SHARPE) > 20. Re: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West (Evan Koblentz) > 21. Re: Question about Apple /// (Jim Manley) > 22. Re: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West (Evan Koblentz) > 23. Re: Question about Apple /// (ED SHARPE) > 24. Re: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West (Evan Koblentz) > 25. Re: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West (Guy Dunphy) > 26. Re: Question about Apple /// (Bill Degnan) > 27. Re: Email delivery protocols / methods. (Noel Chiappa) > 28. Re: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp > museum (Mattis Lind) > 29. Re: Question about Apple /// (ED SHARPE) > 30. Re: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp > museum (Peter Corlett) > 31. Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum > (Bill Degnan) > 32. Re: Email delivery protocols / methods. (David Bridgham) > 33. Re: Email delivery protocols / methods. (David Bridgham) > 34. QSIC, was: Re: Email delivery protocols / methods. > (emanuel stiebler) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 13:33:38 -0400 (EDT) > From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: Re: gunkies.org is down or?... > Message-ID: <20190705173338.C9ACB18C0B6 at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > > > From: Tomasz Rola > > > Is it really down? > > I suppose this is actually good news, in a way - someone must have been > trying to use it, to notice that it was down! :-) > > So let me take this opportunity to appeal once again for people to contribute > content; I've added a lot of PDP-11 stuff, and Lars and I sporadically add > PDP-10 stuff (not that very many actually have a hardware -10 :-), but > _everything else_ could use more content. So if you have a particular focus - > please consider contributing your knowledge in that area! > > Noel > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 11:46:30 -0600 > From: ben > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: gunkies.org is down or?... > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > On 7/5/2019 11:33 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> > From: Tomasz Rola >> >> > Is it really down? >> >> I suppose this is actually good news, in a way - someone must have been >> trying to use it, to notice that it was down! :-) >> >> So let me take this opportunity to appeal once again for people to contribute >> content; I've added a lot of PDP-11 stuff, and Lars and I sporadically add >> PDP-10 stuff (not that very many actually have a hardware -10 :-), but >> _everything else_ could use more content. So if you have a particular focus - >> please consider contributing your knowledge in that area! >> >> Noel > It looks up from here. Wow all those banks of EVIL computers behind that > man in the photo. Ben. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 15:05:32 -0600 > From: Grant Taylor > To: cctalk > Subject: Email delivery protocols / methods. > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > Here's pot stirrer for a holiday Friday afternoon: > > How many different protocols / methods can we collectively come up with > for how email can be transferred? > > I'm primarily thinking about between servers (MTA-to-MTA). But I'm also > willing to accept servers and clients (MTA-to-MUA). Where you can / > could run at least one server yourself. > > ? SMTP(S) > ? UUCP (rmail) > ? MMDF > ? X.400 > ? Microsoft Exchange proprietary protocol > ? Novell GroupWise proprietary protocol > ? Lotus (IBM) Domino proprietary protocol > ? FidoNet (FTN) > ? BITNET > ? Direct file access - group Post Office > ? Direct file access - mail spool > > > -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Jul 6 13:57:27 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2019 14:57:27 -0400 Subject: Email delivery protocols / methods. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F9788A9-D78F-46CA-A8FA-4F02D164B138@comcast.net> > On Jul 5, 2019, at 5:05 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > Here's pot stirrer for a holiday Friday afternoon: > > How many different protocols / methods can we collectively come up with for how email can be transferred? > > I'm primarily thinking about between servers (MTA-to-MTA). But I'm also willing to accept servers and clients (MTA-to-MUA). Where you can / could run at least one server yourself. There's the MAIL-11 protocol (end to end, no MTAs) and the DECmail protocol which may be some OSI-like thing, I'm not sure anymore. For real strangeness there is the PLATO mail protocol, which involves writing the mail into files, which are then extracted from PLATO into the OS file system by a periodic batch job, then sent to another system via file transfer (FTP or a predecessor), then pushed into the PLATO file system, then picked up by a mail agent at that end. Ugh. paul From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 6 14:33:15 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2019 12:33:15 -0700 Subject: Email delivery protocols / methods. In-Reply-To: <4F9788A9-D78F-46CA-A8FA-4F02D164B138@comcast.net> References: <4F9788A9-D78F-46CA-A8FA-4F02D164B138@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5e8f0211-95a5-4106-dfee-4fa16f8f31ce@sydex.com> Those who quibble about the ftp being a separate entity from mail protocol would do well to look at RFC 524 from 1973. There, the MAIL command is implemented within the ftp structure (that is, it is an ftp command). I've found it interesting that 524 never addresses the matter of data representation: (7 bit ASCII PDP-10), (8-bit IBM EBCDIC), (6-bit Univac Fieldata), (9-bit MULTICS), etc. This makes sense when viewed in the light of RFC 354 (ftp), as 354 makes provision for non-7-bit ASCII codes. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jul 6 15:05:53 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2019 13:05:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Question about Apple /// In-Reply-To: <343119742.2321227.1562408320675@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20190705212128.DD8561B00FE6@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> <1136038457.2257762.1562374059115@mail.yahoo.com> <343119742.2321227.1562408320675@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > In a message dated 7/5/2019 11:51:16 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctech at classiccmp.org writes: > Bad video memory? > Our? Lisa? does? that? too... > I? just? leave it? shit? off (grin!) On Sat, 6 Jul 2019, ED SHATNER via cctalk wrote: > Opps....that was supposed to say shut off! Why? "shut off" doesn't convey the mood of a bad video display. From lproven at gmail.com Sat Jul 6 17:28:27 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2019 00:28:27 +0200 Subject: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190706171229.01212100@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <58df4593-06fa-5eb1-ae8f-49c9103b1add@snarc.net> <790308787.2265831.1562372167664@mail.yahoo.com> <327535de-62ef-c424-72dd-43e54370e2c4@snarc.net> <3.0.6.32.20190706171229.01212100@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Jul 2019 at 09:12, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > > I just _love_ being reminded of the circumstances of my NOT buying an Apple I, and what that mistake cost me. > > http://everist.org/NobLog/20181001_missing_wave.htm Sad reading... -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Sat Jul 6 17:30:59 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2019 00:30:59 +0200 Subject: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Jul 2019 at 00:23, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > > When I visited Bletchley park and TNMOC I went by train from London. Euston > I believe. From Gatwick there are trains to Victoria which are quite quick. Me too. But then, I lived in London. Still took nearly 2 hours. But I think you and Peter have missed or not registered Bill's arrival time. To get to Bletchley from Gatwick by train would definitely be my preferred way, but I doubt it's possible starting at 11PM, and to be back again within 17h... -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jul 6 20:51:27 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2019 19:51:27 -0600 Subject: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190706171229.01212100@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <790308787.2265831.1562372167664@mail.yahoo.com> <58df4593-06fa-5eb1-ae8f-49c9103b1add@snarc.net> <790308787.2265831.1562372167664@mail.yahoo.com> <3.0.6.32.20190706171229.01212100@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On 7/6/2019 1:12 AM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > At 08:21 PM 5/07/2019 -0400, you wrote: >> You could be sitting on $400K-$1,000,000. That's the current range of >> decent-condition Apple 1 boards. > > I just _love_ being reminded of the circumstances of my NOT buying an Apple I, and what that mistake cost me. > > http://everist.org/NobLog/20181001_missing_wave.htm > > Guy > Just like the stock market, Next week it could be vintage WWI army boots worn my Mother Inlaws. It the Apple I was so great, why did the COLLECTORS not buy them then? Now a 6501 CPU would be worth a pretty penny. I wonder what has more sales Saturday July 6 2019, A PDP/8 in some form, A PI computer, or a 6502 Home brew computer? Ben. Ps: I have a one of kind 18 bit computer lurking in a DE1 FPGA card, and I am not getting any offers for its sale. Replace your PDP-8 with something bigger. :) 1.5 uS core memory cycle. PPS: A Deluxe 20 bit computer coming REAL SOON. From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Jul 6 20:59:27 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2019 01:59:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West In-Reply-To: References: <790308787.2265831.1562372167664@mail.yahoo.com> <58df4593-06fa-5eb1-ae8f-49c9103b1add@snarc.net> <790308787.2265831.1562372167664@mail.yahoo.com> <3.0.6.32.20190706171229.01212100@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <2066575735.2442233.1562464767249@mail.yahoo.com> Not many collectors back when the Apple1 came out!? Not? sure either if many understood? what that? single board computer? would? birth in the? way? of a line? of? follow ons.? Sometimes? the future is not? known! Ed# In a message dated 7/6/2019 6:51:40 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: It ((If)) the Apple I was so great, why did the COLLECTORS not buy them then? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jul 6 21:18:39 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2019 20:18:39 -0600 Subject: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West In-Reply-To: <2066575735.2442233.1562464767249@mail.yahoo.com> References: <790308787.2265831.1562372167664@mail.yahoo.com> <58df4593-06fa-5eb1-ae8f-49c9103b1add@snarc.net> <790308787.2265831.1562372167664@mail.yahoo.com> <3.0.6.32.20190706171229.01212100@mail.optusnet.com.au> <2066575735.2442233.1562464767249@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4bf99e69-9654-9dad-3078-2fee6a434c56@jetnet.ab.ca> On 7/6/2019 7:59 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > Not many collectors back when the Apple1 came out! > While the CHEAP 6502 is remembered with the Apple we must not forget that the 16 pin 4K dram really made that computer work. Regardless of the architecture, 32 KB is needed to do any useful computing work, and 1975 was the start of affordable memory. PS: Ben's 18 bit computer is BETTER than a PDP 11, faster, simpler and with *2 MORE Blinking lights and Switches*. 1.25 us Core (2.5 us instruction time) vs the orginal PDP 11. did I say more blinking lights. :) From steven at malikoff.com Sun Jul 7 01:02:55 2019 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2019 06:02:55 -0000 Subject: Apple ][ EPROM programmer Re: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190706171229.01212100@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <790308787.2265831.1562372167664@mail.yahoo.com> <58df4593-06fa-5eb1-ae8f-49c9103b1add@snarc.net> <3.0.6.32.20190706171229.01212100@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <3886517f40dc7293dbe61289de20016e.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Guy said > I just _love_ being reminded of the circumstances of my NOT buying an Apple I, and what that mistake cost me. > > http://everist.org/NobLog/20181001_missing_wave.htm You mention you were not aware of any EPROM programmer boards for the Apple ][. I had one for my taiwanese FORMOSA Apple ][ clone and I recall it could do 2716s perhaps 2732s. It was dirt cheap relative to locally bought computer gear in Australia in 1982 like all the other clone cards on offer (Z80 Softcard, printer card, language card, disk ][ card, PAL colour card, 128k ramdisk card and so on) so we got the lot. Since we had no accessible internet back then, everything was done via telexes and wire transfers at the local Post Office to Formosa's Taiwan office. The clone programmer card was very similar in size, layout and appearance to this one but I don't recall it was as sparsely populated: https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Cider-EPROM-Programmer-VIA-for-Apple-II-Computers/223574161149 Steve From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Jul 7 01:23:53 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2019 07:23:53 +0100 Subject: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum In-Reply-To: References: <04b401d53432$5cf90350$16eb09f0$@gmail.com> <005501d5343e$4f3afbe0$edb0f3a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <01c901d5348c$8d6cc800$a8465800$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: William Donzelli > Sent: 07 July 2019 01:56 > To: Dave Wade ; General Discussion: On-Topic > Posts > Subject: Re: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum > > > If you really want to do justice to Bletchley you need two days. > > I did the site (three museums, plus the actual Bletchley house) in about six > hours. They threw me out when I mentioned B-Deinst, but I was done > anyway. But did you do it justice? It?s a lot of walking. > > Less than three hours is really not good - you would miss too much, especially > the demos. > I still think three hours is pushing it.. > Bill, with your time constraints, go into London and spend the time at the > V&A. Completely worth it. > I would have chosen Science museum, but it all depends on what sort of thing you enjoy... ... as a child my favourite museum was the Maritime Museum at Grenwich... > -- > Will From useddec at gmail.com Sun Jul 7 01:48:05 2019 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2019 01:48:05 -0500 Subject: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum In-Reply-To: <01c901d5348c$8d6cc800$a8465800$@gmail.com> References: <04b401d53432$5cf90350$16eb09f0$@gmail.com> <005501d5343e$4f3afbe0$edb0f3a0$@gmail.com> <01c901d5348c$8d6cc800$a8465800$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I was thinking of going over for a visit, but try to fly into Luton and save a lot of travel. If I want to go to London, take the train. Paul On Sun, Jul 7, 2019 at 1:24 AM Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: William Donzelli > > Sent: 07 July 2019 01:56 > > To: Dave Wade ; General Discussion: On-Topic > > Posts > > Subject: Re: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum > > > > > If you really want to do justice to Bletchley you need two days. > > > > I did the site (three museums, plus the actual Bletchley house) in about > six > > hours. They threw me out when I mentioned B-Deinst, but I was done > > anyway. > > But did you do it justice? It?s a lot of walking. > > > > > Less than three hours is really not good - you would miss too much, > especially > > the demos. > > > > I still think three hours is pushing it.. > > > Bill, with your time constraints, go into London and spend the time at > the > > V&A. Completely worth it. > > > > I would have chosen Science museum, but it all depends on what sort of > thing you enjoy... > ... as a child my favourite museum was the Maritime Museum at Grenwich... > > > > -- > > Will > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Jul 7 02:03:59 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2019 08:03:59 +0100 Subject: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum In-Reply-To: References: <04b401d53432$5cf90350$16eb09f0$@gmail.com> <005501d5343e$4f3afbe0$edb0f3a0$@gmail.com> <01c901d5348c$8d6cc800$a8465800$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <01cf01d53492$278b7c60$76a27520$@gmail.com> Paul, I think Luton is a really bad choice if you are using Public Transport. If you are driving that?s not too bad unless its Friday afternoon when the entire UK road system seems to disintegrate. (Actually, in July and August it?s a little better). Its not on the same train line as Bletchly/Milton Keynes so you end up with a messy journey involving busses?. Take a look in Google Maps its pretty good for UK busses and trains. It show 1 Hour and 39 mins direct. Or 2 hours in and out of London. Dave From: Paul Anderson Sent: 07 July 2019 07:48 To: Dave Wade ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum I was thinking of going over for a visit, but try to fly into Luton and save a lot of travel. If I want to go to London, take the train. Paul On Sun, Jul 7, 2019 at 1:24 AM Dave Wade via cctalk > wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: William Donzelli > > Sent: 07 July 2019 01:56 > To: Dave Wade >; General Discussion: On-Topic > Posts > > Subject: Re: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum > > > If you really want to do justice to Bletchley you need two days. > > I did the site (three museums, plus the actual Bletchley house) in about six > hours. They threw me out when I mentioned B-Deinst, but I was done > anyway. But did you do it justice? It?s a lot of walking. > > Less than three hours is really not good - you would miss too much, especially > the demos. > I still think three hours is pushing it.. > Bill, with your time constraints, go into London and spend the time at the > V&A. Completely worth it. > I would have chosen Science museum, but it all depends on what sort of thing you enjoy... ... as a child my favourite museum was the Maritime Museum at Grenwich... > -- > Will From harper at secureoutcomes-hq.com Sat Jul 6 11:31:06 2019 From: harper at secureoutcomes-hq.com (Jack Harper) Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2019 10:31:06 -0600 Subject: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20190706163115.9F73127442@mx1.ezwind.net> Bill, If I were on such a tight schedule, I would as you say rent a car, but one-way, from Gatwick - drive that night late to a hotel in Milton Keynes about five miles north of Bletchley. About 90 miles Gatwick to Milton Keyes - two hours or so late at night. Avis has a return site at Milton Keynes. Leave the car there at Avis. Thursday morning, I would take a taxi to Bletchley Park - the place opens 0930. Spend 1.5 hours or some such max at Bletchley - Train back to Gatwick. I know that you can easily get to London Euston from Bletchley - trains run about every twenty minutes I recall, but I do not know how to get to Gatwick from Euston - figure that out. It would all be very tight, but Bletchley Park is an amazing place to see and only 1.5 hours there would be better than nothing. Here is a snap I took of the "Mansion" when there 15 years ago: http://frobenius.com/bletchley/bl012.jpg If I could see only a couple of things: Hut 8 where Turing used to do his thing and, of course, the Colossus rebuild. It is easy to spend two days there, which I did 2004. Best, Jack Harper Evergreen, Colorado USA At 03:54 AM 7/6/2019, Bill Degnan via cctech wrote: >Hi...I am arriving at Gatwick Airport this weds evening1045pm and I have a >17 hour layover. I'd like to visit the national computer museum at >bletchley park about an hour north. I see I can rent a car from the >airport and drive to a hotel near the museum. There are a few hotels with >24/7 desks. Concerns? Total time in England is 17 hours, 8 of which >needed for sleep, plus travel to and from the airport and museum. Not sure >how efficient the car rental return process is, etc. Need some buffer for >unknowns >Thanks in advance > >Bill ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack Harper, President Secure Outcomes Inc 2942 Evergreen Parkway, Suite 300 Evergreen, Colorado 80439 USA 303.670.8375 303.670.3750 (fax) http://www.secureoutcomes.net for Product Info. From linimon at lonesome.com Sat Jul 6 13:01:23 2019 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2019 18:01:23 +0000 Subject: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum In-Reply-To: <20190706120612.lyaakojszy2qhzs7@mooli.org.uk> References: <20190706120612.lyaakojszy2qhzs7@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <20190706180122.GA4111@lonesome.com> On Sat, Jul 06, 2019 at 02:06:12PM +0200, Peter Corlett via cctech wrote: > they've closed the West London Line this weekend, ostensibly for > maintenance, but possibly just spite. Thanks. I needed a laugh today. mcl From coreyvcf at gmail.com Sat Jul 6 13:10:42 2019 From: coreyvcf at gmail.com (corey cohen) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2019 14:10:42 -0400 Subject: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum In-Reply-To: <20190706180122.GA4111@lonesome.com> References: <20190706120612.lyaakojszy2qhzs7@mooli.org.uk> <20190706180122.GA4111@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <849B9054-C594-47A9-9D7F-474DBA0199F2@gmail.com> Wow I?m jealous, I lost out this week, it was a choice between Bletchley and Selfriges. My kids wanted to shop on Oxford street and didn?t want to take a train for a few hours to Bletchley which would make dad happy. They wanted a something a short walk or tube ride from our hotel near Hyde park where they could drive me crazy and lighten my wallet. Cheers, Corey corey cohen u??o? ???o? Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 6, 2019, at 2:01 PM, Mark Linimon via cctech wrote: > >> On Sat, Jul 06, 2019 at 02:06:12PM +0200, Peter Corlett via cctech wrote: >> they've closed the West London Line this weekend, ostensibly for >> maintenance, but possibly just spite. > > Thanks. I needed a laugh today. > > mcl From blstuart at bellsouth.net Sat Jul 6 14:09:53 2019 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart at bellsouth.net) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2019 19:09:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum In-Reply-To: <849B9054-C594-47A9-9D7F-474DBA0199F2@gmail.com> References: <20190706120612.lyaakojszy2qhzs7@mooli.org.uk> <20190706180122.GA4111@lonesome.com> <849B9054-C594-47A9-9D7F-474DBA0199F2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <216950521.2396023.1562440193829@mail.yahoo.com> On Saturday, July 6, 2019, 2:10:52 PM EDT, corey cohen via cctech wrote: > Wow I?m jealous, I lost out this week, it was a choice > between Bletchley and Selfriges. My kids wanted to > shop on Oxford street and didn?t want to take a train > for a few hours to Bletchley which would make dad > happy. They wanted a something a short walk or > tube ride from our hotel near Hyde park where they > could drive me crazy and lighten my wallet. That sounds familiar. The one time I was there, we neded up not having as much time as we had planned. So one day, the wife and daughter went to see the tower while I went to see Bletchley. BLS From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Jul 6 14:38:17 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2019 20:38:17 +0100 Subject: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <04b401d53432$5cf90350$16eb09f0$@gmail.com> Bill, I think you will be cutting things fine. The risks are up to you, You won't drive from Gatwick to Bletchley in an hour. It?s the wrong side of London. Google is currently saying 1h 33Mins. However, the route involves the M25 via Heathrow and that has frequent blockages so IMHO it?s a risky option. Conversely getting the train means crossing London and getting a tube. Google is saying allow 1h 54m for that at present. Then TNMOC (where all the computers are) does not open until 10.30. Allowing two hours for a visit means its tight getting back to Gatwick. Dave G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech On Behalf Of Bill Degnan via > cctech > Sent: 06 July 2019 10:54 > To: cctech > Subject: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum > > Hi...I am arriving at Gatwick Airport this weds evening1045pm and I have a > 17 hour layover. I'd like to visit the national computer museum at bletchley > park about an hour north. I see I can rent a car from the airport and drive to a > hotel near the museum. There are a few hotels with > 24/7 desks. Concerns? Total time in England is 17 hours, 8 of which needed > for sleep, plus travel to and from the airport and museum. Not sure how > efficient the car rental return process is, etc. Need some buffer for > unknowns Thanks in advance > > Bill From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jul 6 15:21:17 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2019 13:21:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum In-Reply-To: <04b401d53432$5cf90350$16eb09f0$@gmail.com> References: <04b401d53432$5cf90350$16eb09f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Jul 2019, Dave Wade via cctech wrote: > However, the route involves the M25 via Heathrow and that has frequent > blockages so IMHO it?s a risky option. I've never been there, so have no first-hand knowledge. But, "Good Omens" by Pratchett and Gaiman says, "Many phenomena - wars, plagues, sudden audits - have been advanced as evidence for the hidden hand of Satan in the affairs of Man, but whenever students of demonology get together the M25 London orbital motorway is generally agreed to be among the top contenders for Exhibit A." Is it really that bad? It would seem like the museum would be justification for an extra day on the trip. (When we went to the National Auto Museum that had been built out of the remains of the Harrah's Club Collection, we kept it open ended.) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Jul 6 16:03:47 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2019 22:03:47 +0100 Subject: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum In-Reply-To: References: <04b401d53432$5cf90350$16eb09f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <005501d5343e$4f3afbe0$edb0f3a0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech On Behalf Of Fred Cisin via > cctech > Sent: 06 July 2019 21:21 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum > > On Sat, 6 Jul 2019, Dave Wade via cctech wrote: > > However, the route involves the M25 via Heathrow and that has frequent > > blockages so IMHO it?s a risky option. > > I've never been there, so have no first-hand knowledge. But, "Good > Omens" > by Pratchett and Gaiman says, > "Many phenomena - wars, plagues, sudden audits - have been advanced as > evidence for the hidden hand of Satan in the affairs of Man, but whenever > students of demonology get together the M25 London orbital motorway is > generally agreed to be among the top contenders for Exhibit A." > > Is it really that bad? > IMHO even worse. Its 177 miles of motorway which is the usual way to get around London. As usual it was built as cheaply as possible so originally was only three lanes in each direction. These days its mostly 4 lanes, but that meant removing the hard shoulder and replacing it with spaced refuges. I would say its never without an incident somewhere along its length. The stretch around Heathrow where the M40 and M4 join is especially bad. I can see on the "trafficengland" web page http://www.trafficengland.com/ that even though its 9.30PM there is currently one reported incident with a lane closed on the stretch approaching Heathrow from the south (so Gatwick) > It would seem like the museum would be justification for an extra day on the > trip. > If you really want to do justice to Bletchley you need two days. The Bletchley Park Museum which has lots of information about code breaking and also the Amateur Radio station needs 3 or 4 hours to do it justice.. They have several encryption machines including Enigma. However what for me is the interesting hardware, so the Turing Welchman Bombe re-build and Tommy Flower's Colossus re-build are at TNMOC which is a separate museum on a separate part of the site. That?s where I usually go (But I am on the Members Club committee). That is imho also worth the best part of a day to visit. If you want to visit TNMOC you go past the entrance to the Bletchly Park Trust entrance and drive up the side to the TNMOC. The security man will usually guide you. > (When we went to the National Auto Museum that had been built out of the > remains of the Harrah's Club Collection, we kept it open ended.) > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com Dave From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jul 6 19:56:13 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2019 20:56:13 -0400 Subject: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum In-Reply-To: <005501d5343e$4f3afbe0$edb0f3a0$@gmail.com> References: <04b401d53432$5cf90350$16eb09f0$@gmail.com> <005501d5343e$4f3afbe0$edb0f3a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: > If you really want to do justice to Bletchley you need two days. I did the site (three museums, plus the actual Bletchley house) in about six hours. They threw me out when I mentioned B-Deinst, but I was done anyway. Less than three hours is really not good - you would miss too much, especially the demos. Bill, with your time constraints, go into London and spend the time at the V&A. Completely worth it. -- Will From roger.addy at charter.net Sat Jul 6 22:18:11 2019 From: roger.addy at charter.net (Roger Addy) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2019 20:18:11 -0700 Subject: RS232 Communications HP9000 Series 320 Message-ID: Hi All, First post here.? I have a HP9000 Series 320 computer with a HP Drive system.? It uses the HPL 2.1 (I think) operating system. I'm trying to get some ASCII files out of the system using the RS232 port.? The port is female DB9, so I'm assuming it's DCE.? I got an HP cable DB9 to DB25 which reorients the pins to PC standard RS232 DTE.? I can get a connection with the HP. but when I try to send a file it just shows the word "PROMPT" on the PC. I'm not sure what to do at this point.? I'm currently using Tera Term.? Any advice is appreciated. Roger Addy --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From phb.hfx at gmail.com Sun Jul 7 00:05:25 2019 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2019 02:05:25 -0300 Subject: RS232 Communications HP9000 Series 320 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1f08bcff-5d88-adf9-b908-8f594c8d0ccc@gmail.com> When you say it is a DB9 I am guessing that you are using the serial port on the 320's interface card, the port is supposed to be the equivalent of a 98644 serial card.? In the manual 98561-90020_series300configRef_Aug85 I found a pinout of the RS-232 connector on what is reputed to be the 320 human interface card.? I have had a little experience with HPL and wonder what software you are using on the 9000 side to send the data. You may also want to ask for advice on the VintHPcom group on groups.io for advise as that group specializes in early HP computers up until the 68K 9000s like the 320. Paul. On 2019-07-07 12:18 a.m., Roger Addy via cctech wrote: > Hi All, > > First post here.? I have a HP9000 Series 320 computer with a HP Drive > system.? It uses the HPL 2.1 (I think) operating system. I'm trying to > get some ASCII files out of the system using the RS232 port.? The port > is female DB9, so I'm assuming it's DCE.? I got an HP cable DB9 to > DB25 which reorients the pins to PC standard RS232 DTE.? I can get a > connection with the HP. but when I try to send a file it just shows > the word "PROMPT" on the PC. I'm not sure what to do at this point.? > I'm currently using Tera Term.? Any advice is appreciated. > > Roger Addy > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > From lorrywoodman at gmail.com Sun Jul 7 00:56:57 2019 From: lorrywoodman at gmail.com (Lawrence Woodman) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2019 06:56:57 +0100 Subject: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9d1c47ab-e84b-295b-5c5c-37a632c0a6c6@gmail.com> Hello Bill, On 06/07/2019 10:54, Bill Degnan via cctech wrote: > Hi...I am arriving at Gatwick Airport this weds evening1045pm and I > have a 17 hour layover. I'd like to visit the national computer > museum at bletchley park about an hour north. I see I can rent a > car from the airport and drive to a hotel near the museum. There > are a few hotels with 24/7 desks. Concerns? Total time in England > is 17 hours, 8 of which needed for sleep, plus travel to and from > the airport and museum. Not sure how efficient the car rental > return process is, etc. Need some buffer for unknowns It may be too difficult to confidently get there and back in the time you have.? You could try the Science Museum in London instead: http://collection.sciencemuseum.org.uk/search/categories/computing-&-data-processing https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/Gatwick+Airport,+Horley,+Gatwick+RH6+0RD/Science+Museum,+Exhibition+Rd,+South+Kensington,+London+SW7+2DD/@51.3216345,-0.3493122,11z Best wishes Lorry --- https://techtinkering.com - Vintage Computers and Programming https://youtube.com/techtinkering - Lots of CP/M Videos https://techtinkering.com/articles/mission-impossible-on-cpm/ From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Jul 7 02:37:55 2019 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2019 08:37:55 +0100 Subject: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum In-Reply-To: <04b401d53432$5cf90350$16eb09f0$@gmail.com> References: <04b401d53432$5cf90350$16eb09f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <25715c99-5cbf-4375-c36c-af7f5eb0198d@btinternet.com> Gatwick to Bletchley and back on a Thursday - Difficult. Public transport or road on a workday in London er.. I don't think so. Time at Bletchley would be short and you really need the two hour NMOC guided tour - its a bit of a rabbit warren. I'm an hour and a bit south west (Newbury) by fast car. It took a complete day including a private booked tour just for the Computer Museum. So go there - stay near - allow 2/3 days - one day = no way Rod G8DGR On 06/07/2019 20:38, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > Bill, > I think you will be cutting things fine. The risks are up to you, > You won't drive from Gatwick to Bletchley in an hour. It?s the wrong side of London. Google is currently saying 1h 33Mins. > However, the route involves the M25 via Heathrow and that has frequent blockages so IMHO it?s a risky option. > Conversely getting the train means crossing London and getting a tube. Google is saying allow 1h 54m for that at present. > Then TNMOC (where all the computers are) does not open until 10.30. Allowing two hours for a visit means its tight getting back to Gatwick. > Dave > G4UGM > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctech On Behalf Of Bill Degnan via >> cctech >> Sent: 06 July 2019 10:54 >> To: cctech >> Subject: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum >> >> Hi...I am arriving at Gatwick Airport this weds evening1045pm and I have a >> 17 hour layover. I'd like to visit the national computer museum at bletchley >> park about an hour north. I see I can rent a car from the airport and drive to a >> hotel near the museum. There are a few hotels with >> 24/7 desks. Concerns? Total time in England is 17 hours, 8 of which needed >> for sleep, plus travel to and from the airport and museum. Not sure how >> efficient the car rental return process is, etc. Need some buffer for >> unknowns Thanks in advance >> >> Bill -- From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Jul 7 03:32:34 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2019 09:32:34 +0100 Subject: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum In-Reply-To: <20190706163115.9F73127442@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <20190706163115.9F73127442@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <023601d5349e$878e1350$96aa39f0$@gmail.com> Jack, Note that Bletchley Park is now split into two. (don't ask) and Colossus and the Bombe re-build are now at TNMOC not at Bletchley Park. Its on the same site but two Museums. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Jack Harper via > cctalk > Sent: 06 July 2019 17:31 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum > > > Bill, > > If I were on such a tight schedule, I would as you say rent a car, but one-way, > from Gatwick - drive that night late to a hotel in Milton Keynes about five > miles north of Bletchley. > > About 90 miles Gatwick to Milton Keyes - two hours or so late at night. > > Avis has a return site at Milton Keynes. Leave the car there at Avis. > > Thursday morning, I would take a taxi to Bletchley Park - the place opens > 0930. > > Spend 1.5 hours or some such max at Bletchley - Train back to Gatwick. > > I know that you can easily get to London Euston from Bletchley - trains run > about every twenty minutes I recall, but I do not know how to get to Gatwick > from Euston - figure that out. > > > It would all be very tight, but Bletchley Park is an amazing place to see and > only 1.5 hours there would be better than nothing. > > Here is a snap I took of the "Mansion" when there 15 years > ago: http://frobenius.com/bletchley/bl012.jpg > > If I could see only a couple of things: Hut 8 where Turing used to > do his thing and, of course, the Colossus rebuild. > > It is easy to spend two days there, which I did 2004. > > > Best, > > Jack Harper > Evergreen, Colorado USA > > > > > > > > > At 03:54 AM 7/6/2019, Bill Degnan via cctech wrote: > >Hi...I am arriving at Gatwick Airport this weds evening1045pm and I > >have a > >17 hour layover. I'd like to visit the national computer museum at > >bletchley park about an hour north. I see I can rent a car from the > >airport and drive to a hotel near the museum. There are a few hotels > >with > >24/7 desks. Concerns? Total time in England is 17 hours, 8 of which > >needed for sleep, plus travel to and from the airport and museum. Not > >sure how efficient the car rental return process is, etc. Need some > >buffer for unknowns Thanks in advance > > > >Bill > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ > Jack Harper, President > Secure Outcomes Inc > 2942 Evergreen Parkway, Suite 300 > Evergreen, Colorado 80439 USA > > 303.670.8375 > 303.670.3750 (fax) > > http://www.secureoutcomes.net for Product Info. From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Jul 7 04:40:31 2019 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2019 05:40:31 -0400 Subject: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum In-Reply-To: <20190706120612.lyaakojszy2qhzs7@mooli.org.uk> References: <20190706120612.lyaakojszy2qhzs7@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 6, 2019, 3:57 PM Peter Corlett via cctech wrote: > On Sat, Jul 06, 2019 at 12:54:28PM +0300, Bill Degnan via cctech wrote: > > Hi...I am arriving at Gatwick Airport this weds evening1045pm and I have > a > > 17 hour layover. I'd like to visit the national computer museum at > > bletchley park about an hour north. [...] > > It's actually *two* hours north; three if you want to add a safety margin. > Remember the old saying: 200 years is a long time in the USA, and 200 > miles is > a long way in the UK. > > I advise against driving, especially if you're unfamiliar with British > roads. > It will be both slower and more expensive than the train for this > particular > route because London is in the way. Petrol works out at over $7/gal, and > you > get to navigate the infamous M25 motorway-cum-car-park. It's debatable > whether > it will be more convenient. > > There are railway stations at both Gatwick and Bletchley. Bletchley Park > is a 3 > minute walk from the station. > > If you do the standard tourist thing at the ticket office/machine, they'll > screw you to the tune of ?42.10 for an "any permitted" return ticket, which > sends you on the Gatwick Express to the wrong side of London, the Tube back > across London, and then another train to Bletchley. More changes between > more > modes of transport mean more risk of things going wrong. > > A "via Ken[sington] Olympia" ticket is ?28.80, which would be my preferred > route anyway. Gatwick to Clapham Junction, a quick change to the next > platform, > then onward to Bletchley. You do not need to stop at or change at Olympia. > > Both train routes take about two hours; the Olympia one is less frequent > and > slower by a few minutes according to the optimistic routing models which > think > the Tube pays any sort of attention to the timetable, but tends to be > faster in > practice. You might consider buying the more expensive "any permitted" > ticket > anyway as insurance to give you more flexibility if things go wrong. > > Have a play with https://traintimes.org.uk/GTW/BLY, but if you don't > change the > date, it won't show you Olympia routes because they've closed the West > London > Line this weekend, ostensibly for maintenance, but possibly just spite. > This > won't be the case on Thursday when you're travelling. > I believe getting to a hotel in the Bletchely area just before midnight on Weds from Gatwick will not be so bad due to the later time/less traffic. The issue it the return. Refined question - When would I have to depart the museum in order to travel by rental car (driving legal speeds) from Bletchley to Gatwick Airport in time for a 4PM flight on 7/11 (A Thursday)? I will have left the airport originally on an extended layover between flights, I assume I on my return I will have to go through security all over again. I greatly appreciate all of the advice given. I really don't like the idea of pushing it given the times involved but I have the enthusiasm to try if possible. Bill From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jul 7 09:31:56 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2019 10:31:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: KDJ11-E issue/info Message-ID: <20190707143156.9661318C0D9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Nigel Johnson > Anybody have any docs on the DEC LSI 11/93 (KDJ11-E)? Info on the -E is thin on the ground. The User's Manual (EK-KDJ1E-UG-001) is available online, though, which is a start - it gives info on how to configure it, etc. > I am trying to run it in a BA23 backplane and seemingly geting bus > hangs as is there is something that it is looking for that is not > there! QBUS 11's are pretty resistant to hangs, unless you have an interrupted grant chain. A simple missing device should give a NXM fault. I"d try getting the whole system working with another CPU, and then plug in the -E; reduce the number of unknown variables. Although with memory and console line on-board on the -E, it shouldn't need too much else for at least basic functioning. Noel From nw.johnson at ieee.org Sun Jul 7 10:06:54 2019 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2019 11:06:54 -0400 Subject: KDJ11-E issue/info In-Reply-To: <20190707143156.9661318C0D9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190707143156.9661318C0D9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for the reply, Noel, On 07/07/2019 10:31, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Nigel Johnson > > Anybody have any docs on the DEC LSI 11/93 (KDJ11-E)? > > Info on the -E is thin on the ground. The User's Manual (EK-KDJ1E-UG-001) > is available online, though, which is a start - it gives info on how to > configure it, etc. Yes, I have that manual. Thanks. > > I am trying to run it in a BA23 backplane and seemingly geting bus > > hangs as is there is something that it is looking for that is not > > there! > > QBUS 11's are pretty resistant to hangs, unless you have an interrupted > grant chain. A simple missing device should give a NXM fault. Yes, I have checked the grant chain. No problems there.? I started out with just the processor anyway.? It seems that the firmware is trying to access something from the system it came from, which isn't there.? I have tried all boot device settings, as well as direct into dialogue mode, and it always clears the screen and homes cursor, but never gets past that point.? The run light comes out whenever it gets to the dialogue mode whether I go throug hthe diagnostics or not.? It passes all the diagnostics. I am connecting a terminal (Tried all types that Pathworks Powerterm 525 will emulate, as well as putty,minicom, and kermit) via a made-up cable, looping all te other ports.? I am suspicious that the console cab kit (which I don't have) needs +5 and +12 so I am wondering if the firmware is waiting for some kind of handshake.? I wonder if anybody else out there can advise. > > I"d try getting the whole system working with another CPU, and then plug in > the -E; reduce the number of unknown variables. Although with memory and > console line on-board on the -E, it shouldn't need too much else for at least > basic functioning. It would be a great idea if I had one. Somehow I went on a mad frenzy to clear out extra stock from my storage area years ago and got rid of the last one, thinking that there was one still inside the backplane! cheers, NIgel > Noel -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From w2hx at w2hx.com Sun Jul 7 13:12:56 2019 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2019 18:12:56 +0000 Subject: RL01 Platter Removal? In-Reply-To: <1562450631114.12238@w2hx.com> References: <1562450631114.12238@w2hx.com> Message-ID: <1562523177556.98733@w2hx.com> ?Hi all, I have a crashed RL01 disk (very crashed). I'd like to remove it from the plastic cover to display it. I opened up the case but cannot figure out how to remove the platter? I took 4 philips screws out which only served to remove a metal ring. It seems that the handle is somehow attached to the platter and seems it is preventing me from removing the platter. Whats the trick? Thanks Eugene From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jul 7 13:38:21 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2019 14:38:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West Message-ID: <20190707183821.99ED618C10A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Evan Koblentz > what the owners plan to do in the future. Sell the Apple I and retire to a tropical island on the proceeds, if they have any sense! :-) Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jul 7 16:53:19 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2019 14:53:19 -0700 Subject: RF08 light panel Message-ID: <6b50b318-4763-24cb-7164-8515b337cba6@bitsavers.org> bet this won't go cheap https://www.ebay.com/itm/372706567865 From cube1 at charter.net Sun Jul 7 22:01:07 2019 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2019 21:01:07 -0600 Subject: RF08 light panel In-Reply-To: <6b50b318-4763-24cb-7164-8515b337cba6@bitsavers.org> References: <6b50b318-4763-24cb-7164-8515b337cba6@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <261086B2-26A6-40FD-A1F0-B9F9F1A3B60B@charter.net> I will be watching. I have almost an entire RS08/RF08, sans maybe the drive base plate and heads, including the light panel. Sent from my iPad > On Jul 7, 2019, at 15:53, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > bet this won't go cheap > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/372706567865 > From chd at chdickman.com Sun Jul 7 22:19:25 2019 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2019 23:19:25 -0400 Subject: RALGOL - A PDP8 ALGOL 60 Message-ID: I played around with this algol 60 compiler for the PDP8 and succeeded in getting it to run. I have not found any other notes, so I thought that I would give a leg up to the next one that wants to work on it. -chuck -------- This ALGOL 60 implementation for the PDP8 was written by Roger H. Abbott while he was at Oxford. The bits are here: http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp8/papertapeImages/russ.ucs.indiana.edu/Langs/Algol/ A copy of the manual here: https://archive.org/details/hack42_ROG_ALGOL_Compiler A paper here: http://pdp8.de/download/RogAlgol.pdf Mr. Abbotts business is here: http://www.angelfire.com/biz/rhaminisys/index.html The website or the host is a bit sketchy. The business is probably defunct. I found a link that said Mr. Abbott died in the early 2000. The system is two parts: the compiler and the runtime. This is all assuming the use of OS/8. To create the SV file for the compiler: .R ABSLDR *INTRUN.BN,ALGCOM.BN,COMOS8.BN$ .SAVE SYS:ALGCOM.SV .R ALGCOM.SV To create the SV file for the runtime system/loader: .R ABSLDR *FPP.BN,ALGRUN.BN,RUNOS8.BN .SAVE SYS:RALGOL.SV .R RALGOL.SV There are other options for the FPP.BN for other hardware possibilities. FPEAE8.BN for the classic pdp8 EAE and FPPEAE.BN for the PDP8/e EAE. This needs some testings. Running an ALGOL program: .TYPE FLOAT.AL 'BEGIN' 'REAL' A,B; TEXT(1,"HELLO WORLD!"); SKIP(1); A := 3.141592; B := COS(A); TEXT(1,"A = "); RWRITE(1,A); SKIP(1); TEXT(1,"B = COS(A) = "); RWRITE(1,B); 'END' $$$$$ .R ALGCOM ROGALGOL MK40 OUT References: <58df4593-06fa-5eb1-ae8f-49c9103b1add@snarc.net> <790308787.2265831.1562372167664@mail.yahoo.com> <327535de-62ef-c424-72dd-43e54370e2c4@snarc.net> <1623202381.2272238.1562373935933@mail.yahoo.com> <919da89d-957f-3e21-99e4-e1643f0e53fb@snarc.net> Message-ID: <2528AD77-E1E2-455A-91DF-CCF25BFD62A0@gmail.com> Actually the cheapest Apple-1 reproduction is just over 4 figures. A reproduction with date correct components cost as much as 5 figures. A work-alike like a replica-1 is cheap, maybe $150 Cheers, Corey corey cohen u??o? ???o? Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 5, 2019, at 8:48 PM, Evan Koblentz via cctalk wrote: > > >> What are the replicas gong for Evan? > > > A perfect reproduction -- for example a Mimeo will entirely date-code-correct components -- can go for four figures. > > Most repros/replicas aren't at that level. > From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Sun Jul 7 22:14:54 2019 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2019 22:14:54 -0500 Subject: RS232 Communications HP9000 Series 320 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <64c79dde-8b17-f4d6-249d-72502fa9eccd@gmail.com> Roger Addy via cctech wrote: > Hi All, > > First post here.? I have a HP9000 Series 320 computer with a HP Drive > system.? It uses the HPL 2.1 (I think) operating system. I'm trying to > get some ASCII files out of the system using the RS232 port.? The port > is female DB9, so I'm assuming it's DCE.? I got an HP cable DB9 to > DB25 which reorients the pins to PC standard RS232 DTE.? I can get a > connection with the HP. but when I try to send a file it just shows > the word "PROMPT" on the PC. I'm not sure what to do at this point.? > I'm currently using Tera Term.? Any advice is appreciated. I have this HP cable part # 98561-61604, which I think is exactly for early HP9000-300 machines.? It is a male DE-9 to female DB-25 cable, and the pinout is as follows: Male DE9???????? Female DB25 --------???????? ---------- 1 ---------------- 20 DTR 2 ---------------- 2? TD 3 ---------------- 3? RD 4 ---------------- 4? RTS 5 ---------------- 5? CTS 6 ---------------- 6? DSR 7 ---------------- 7? SG 8 ---------------- 8? CD 9 ---------------- 22 RI Clearly, the DE-9 is not a PC-style serial pinout. carlos. From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jul 8 06:14:31 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 13:14:31 +0200 Subject: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum In-Reply-To: References: <20190706120612.lyaakojszy2qhzs7@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Jul 2019 at 11:40, Bill Degnan via cctech wrote: > > Refined question - When would I have to depart the museum in order to > travel by rental car (driving legal speeds) from Bletchley to Gatwick > Airport in time for a 4PM flight on 7/11 (A Thursday)? To echo what others have said: * you will have around an hour and a half at the museum. I would say that's about the right ballpark. * there are 2 _entirely separate_ museums on the Bletchley Park site: ** Bletchley Park: https://www.bletchleypark.org.uk/ ** The National Museum of Computing: https://www.tnmoc.org/ The BP Museum is just a museum and this largely devoid of anything of tech interest. TNMOC has the interesting technology, such as Colossus and so on. It happens to be situated on the site of BP and in some BP huts and buildings. The history in very brief and AIUI is this: All the wartime activity at BP was classified for ~50y after the war. Apart from a few nerds -- i.e. us lot -- nobody knew or cared what happened. Alan Turing was some boring dead mathematician. The park and mansion was of no interest or significance to anyone but someone owned it so it didn't get demolished, but most of the land was taken for a nearby housing estate. A "project" in American English, I think? The buildings were left to rot. Then the Enigma project etc. got declassified, computing got old enough and mainstream enough that cultural awareness of it seeped into the mainstream. The handful of surviving codebreakers got recognition, awards etc. People starting trying to reconstruct the machines used. Much of this effort was onsite because the huts were still there, derelict and so cheap. This developed into a museum of computing. That in turn developed into TNMOC. Meantime, as historical awareness grew, the mansion house got bought for the nation, preserved and turned into a museum. People started coming. But while they were interested in the site and the buildings, most of them were interested in the machines and the rebuild project and the nerd stuff. My impression is that the BP museum people were surprised by this, having thought all the actual nerd stuff was of niche interest and that the _site_ was the interesting bit. But what grew into TNMOC was the big tourist attraction. So the 2 entities are _rivals_. My impression is that the BP people resent TNMOC and the nerds, but they need the rent, the income, the tourist draw. Without TNMOC the BP museum would collapse. But that means they need those horrible smelly nerds and their nasty machines, and the weirdoes who want to see them, instead of decent clean-living upright folk who respect British Military History and want to know about the noble heroic military effort. The fact that the nerds know that Turing was gay, and convicted as a criminal for it, and was hounded to death by the Establishment instead of being lauded as a war hero -- the story the BP museum would rather tell -- is even worse. Result? The publicity material, signposts etc. doesn't mention TNMOC. The ticket doesn't cover TNMOC. When I asked about TNMOC I got the impression that the salesperson didn't want to tell me and wanted to pretend it didn't exist. You need 2 tickets. You need to visit 2 separate sites, located a few yards apart, and you can't move from one to the other. You could spent 30min having a very quick hustle around the park and the mansion and their huts, then go get a TNMOC ticket and spend an hour having a very quick hustle around TNMOC seeing all the lovely old kit and mourning that you don't have time to read any labels, play with anything, and that if it's like it was when I was there 7-8y ago, that it's sad that so much kit isn't connected or running or restored because they don't have enough volunteers. Then you'll have to run for your car after a very hasty and unsatisfactory 90 minute visit and if there are any bad traffic problems you might still miss your plane. :-( British roads are small, narrow and congested. Our traffic is horrifyingly bad. 2?h to do 90 miles is somewhat optimistic. Saying that, I think you'll still be glad you did it and would be sad to miss it. > I will have left > the airport originally on an extended layover between flights, I assume I > on my return I will have to go through security all over again. Yes. Nowhere else has flights like American flights. Yours are like a bus service to us: walk in, pay, fly. I've only done it once and it was amazing. All flights in and out of Britain are full international flights. You need to be there and getting in the line for check-in 2 hours before scheduled departure, regardless of flight delays. You will have to do full security, passport control, immigration etc. Expect to be treated like you just got home to the USA after a decade in Moscow and you've grown a beard and acquired a strong Russian accent. So allow at least half an hour to park up, return your hire car, find the right terminal, etc. So if your flight is from LGW at 4, you need to schedule your return for about 1:30 PM. That means leaving BP at about 11AM, I'm afraid. So you have about 45min each in the 2 museums at best. I'd do BP first, move as fast as you can, then spend the bulk of your time on TNMOC. > I greatly appreciate all of the advice given. I really don't like the idea > of pushing it given the times involved but I have the enthusiasm to try if > possible. It will be a major effort to do it at all. Britain looks small but it's not. It's effectively ?-? the size of the USA, in density of people, buildings etc., and our critical infrastructure dates from the late Roman Empire to the modern stuff which is slightly newer than the USA War of Independence. In US terms, trying to get to BP and back when you have 17h is roughly equivalent to trying to see Niagara Falls when you have 1 day in Manhattan. Or visiting Hollywood if you have an overnight stop in San Francisco. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From fedorkow at mit.edu Mon Jul 8 06:47:05 2019 From: fedorkow at mit.edu (Guy Fedorkow) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 07:47:05 -0400 Subject: sun microsystem manuals Message-ID: <35756c4f-9545-8303-4f0e-a9e5f4632736@mit.edu> I have a small stack of Sun 3 Administrator, Networking and Diagnostic manuals, from about 1990.? Contact me if you think anyone would want them? ? Thanks /guy fedorkow From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Jul 8 06:43:48 2019 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 14:43:48 +0300 Subject: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum In-Reply-To: References: <20190706120612.lyaakojszy2qhzs7@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: > > To echo what others have said: > > * you will have around an hour and a half at the museum. I would say > that's about the right ballpark. > > * there are 2 _entirely separate_ museums on the Bletchley Park site: > ** Bletchley Park: https://www.bletchleypark.org.uk/ > ** The National Museum of Computing: https://www.tnmoc.org/ > > The BP Museum is just a museum and this largely devoid of anything of > tech interest. > > TNMOC has the interesting technology, such as Colossus and so on. It > happens to be situated on the site of BP and in some BP huts and > buildings. > I have some hand written code for the Elliot 802 and I spoke with Peter Onion who runs the Elliot 803 machine, he is going to meet me there. So all I need is time enough for that and my focus is the Elliot 802, so I can drop off my code in person. Seems like a lot but I just want to be sure to see the Elliot 803 while I am around. Bill > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Jul 8 07:53:24 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 13:53:24 +0100 Subject: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum In-Reply-To: References: <20190706120612.lyaakojszy2qhzs7@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <062f01d5358c$2212d210$66387630$@gmail.com> Liam, As one of the TNMOC Members (roughly equivalent to "friends" in other museums) I don't think Bletchley Park would collapse without TNMOC. It has huge income from renting out buildings other than those TNMOC use. It has many visitors who are interesting in the place and the story and the tearoom who don't care about technology. In deference to them it has removed most of the technology, (and paid to move the Bombe but not for the room re-fit) It has basically adopted the "Tea Room" strategy used by the National Trust in the UK. Keep your visitors on-site after their visit by offering a very nice expensive and profitable tea room. It also won considerable lottery funding and is pretty affluent:- https://beta.charitycommission.gov.uk/charity-details/?subid=0®id=1012743 in contrast TNMOC has received no government money (all donations welcome), receives fewer visitors, and has to be careful with its money.... I wouldn't like to comment on relationships, but they appeal to very different audiences. There is now some signage at the main gate but its minimal... Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Liam Proven via > cctalk > Sent: 08 July 2019 12:15 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum > > On Sun, 7 Jul 2019 at 11:40, Bill Degnan via cctech > wrote: > > > > Refined question - When would I have to depart the museum in order to > > travel by rental car (driving legal speeds) from Bletchley to Gatwick > > Airport in time for a 4PM flight on 7/11 (A Thursday)? > > To echo what others have said: > > * you will have around an hour and a half at the museum. I would say that's > about the right ballpark. > > * there are 2 _entirely separate_ museums on the Bletchley Park site: > ** Bletchley Park: https://www.bletchleypark.org.uk/ > ** The National Museum of Computing: https://www.tnmoc.org/ > > The BP Museum is just a museum and this largely devoid of anything of tech > interest. > > TNMOC has the interesting technology, such as Colossus and so on. It > happens to be situated on the site of BP and in some BP huts and buildings. > > The history in very brief and AIUI is this: > > All the wartime activity at BP was classified for ~50y after the war. > Apart from a few nerds -- i.e. us lot -- nobody knew or cared what happened. > Alan Turing was some boring dead mathematician. The park and mansion was > of no interest or significance to anyone but someone owned it so it didn't get > demolished, but most of the land was taken for a nearby housing estate. A > "project" in American English, I think? The buildings were left to rot. > > Then the Enigma project etc. got declassified, computing got old enough and > mainstream enough that cultural awareness of it seeped into the > mainstream. The handful of surviving codebreakers got recognition, awards > etc. People starting trying to reconstruct the machines used. > Much of this effort was onsite because the huts were still there, derelict and > so cheap. > > This developed into a museum of computing. That in turn developed into > TNMOC. > > Meantime, as historical awareness grew, the mansion house got bought for > the nation, preserved and turned into a museum. > > People started coming. But while they were interested in the site and the > buildings, most of them were interested in the machines and the rebuild > project and the nerd stuff. > > My impression is that the BP museum people were surprised by this, having > thought all the actual nerd stuff was of niche interest and that the _site_ was > the interesting bit. > > But what grew into TNMOC was the big tourist attraction. > > So the 2 entities are _rivals_. My impression is that the BP people resent > TNMOC and the nerds, but they need the rent, the income, the tourist draw. > Without TNMOC the BP museum would collapse. But that means they need > those horrible smelly nerds and their nasty machines, and the weirdoes who > want to see them, instead of decent clean-living upright folk who respect > British Military History and want to know about the noble heroic military > effort. > > The fact that the nerds know that Turing was gay, and convicted as a criminal > for it, and was hounded to death by the Establishment instead of being > lauded as a war hero -- the story the BP museum would rather tell -- is even > worse. > > Result? The publicity material, signposts etc. doesn't mention TNMOC. > The ticket doesn't cover TNMOC. When I asked about TNMOC I got the > impression that the salesperson didn't want to tell me and wanted to > pretend it didn't exist. > > You need 2 tickets. You need to visit 2 separate sites, located a few yards > apart, and you can't move from one to the other. > > You could spent 30min having a very quick hustle around the park and the > mansion and their huts, then go get a TNMOC ticket and spend an hour > having a very quick hustle around TNMOC seeing all the lovely old kit and > mourning that you don't have time to read any labels, play with anything, and > that if it's like it was when I was there 7-8y ago, that it's sad that so much kit > isn't connected or running or restored because they don't have enough > volunteers. > > Then you'll have to run for your car after a very hasty and unsatisfactory 90 > minute visit and if there are any bad traffic problems you might still miss your > plane. :-( > > British roads are small, narrow and congested. Our traffic is horrifyingly bad. > 2?h to do 90 miles is somewhat optimistic. > > Saying that, I think you'll still be glad you did it and would be sad to miss it. > > > > I will have left > > the airport originally on an extended layover between flights, I > > assume I on my return I will have to go through security all over again. > > Yes. Nowhere else has flights like American flights. Yours are like a bus > service to us: walk in, pay, fly. I've only done it once and it was amazing. > > All flights in and out of Britain are full international flights. You need to be > there and getting in the line for check-in 2 hours before scheduled > departure, regardless of flight delays. You will have to do full security, > passport control, immigration etc. Expect to be treated like you just got > home to the USA after a decade in Moscow and you've grown a beard and > acquired a strong Russian accent. > > So allow at least half an hour to park up, return your hire car, find the right > terminal, etc. > > So if your flight is from LGW at 4, you need to schedule your return for about > 1:30 PM. That means leaving BP at about 11AM, I'm afraid. So you have about > 45min each in the 2 museums at best. I'd do BP first, move as fast as you can, > then spend the bulk of your time on TNMOC. > > > I greatly appreciate all of the advice given. I really don't like the > > idea of pushing it given the times involved but I have the enthusiasm > > to try if possible. > > It will be a major effort to do it at all. > > Britain looks small but it's not. It's effectively ?-? the size of the USA, in > density of people, buildings etc., and our critical infrastructure dates from the > late Roman Empire to the modern stuff which is slightly newer than the USA > War of Independence. > > In US terms, trying to get to BP and back when you have 17h is roughly > equivalent to trying to see Niagara Falls when you have 1 day in Manhattan. > Or visiting Hollywood if you have an overnight stop in San Francisco. > > -- > Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From jesse at cypress-tech.com Mon Jul 8 07:18:11 2019 From: jesse at cypress-tech.com (jesse cypress-tech.com) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 12:18:11 +0000 Subject: Box of HP 1000 series MUX cards - 12040 Message-ID: <64602e4e-693b-3e01-ccf8-537f68d37c16@cypress-tech.com> If anyone wants 87 HP 1000 series mux cards for gold or to play around with, I'm starting to clean house. The ebay link is below. https://www.ebay.com/itm/383039137321 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jul 8 08:48:51 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 15:48:51 +0200 Subject: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum In-Reply-To: <062f01d5358c$2212d210$66387630$@gmail.com> References: <20190706120612.lyaakojszy2qhzs7@mooli.org.uk> <062f01d5358c$2212d210$66387630$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Jul 2019 at 14:53, Dave Wade wrote: > > I wouldn't like to comment on relationships, but they appeal to very different audiences. There is now some signage at the main gate but its minimal... OK, noted. So apart from my comment that BP depended on the revenues and draw of TNMOC, and that actually BP is doing fine, you have no other corrections to make? That's very interesting. BTW I won't quote you, this isn't leading up to anything anywhere or anything like that. Purely trying to set reasonable (i.e., low) expectations for Bill. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Jul 8 09:42:41 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 15:42:41 +0100 Subject: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum In-Reply-To: References: <20190706120612.lyaakojszy2qhzs7@mooli.org.uk> <062f01d5358c$2212d210$66387630$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <07c601d5359b$664f3e50$32edbaf0$@gmail.com> As for expectations for Bill, my son made a similar journey , by bus, from Oxford to Gatwick, so a bit of M40 then 75% of the M25 this morning. He allowed 2 hours extra and is cross because for once he arrived on schedule and had two extra hours at Gatwick to kill..... Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Liam Proven via > cctalk > Sent: 08 July 2019 14:49 > To: Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum > > On Mon, 8 Jul 2019 at 14:53, Dave Wade wrote: > > > > I wouldn't like to comment on relationships, but they appeal to very > different audiences. There is now some signage at the main gate but its > minimal... > > OK, noted. > > So apart from my comment that BP depended on the revenues and draw of > TNMOC, and that actually BP is doing fine, you have no other corrections to > make? > > That's very interesting. > > BTW I won't quote you, this isn't leading up to anything anywhere or > anything like that. Purely trying to set reasonable (i.e., low) expectations for > Bill. > > -- > Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From ethan at 757.org Mon Jul 8 09:43:03 2019 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 10:43:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West In-Reply-To: <2528AD77-E1E2-455A-91DF-CCF25BFD62A0@gmail.com> References: <58df4593-06fa-5eb1-ae8f-49c9103b1add@snarc.net> <790308787.2265831.1562372167664@mail.yahoo.com> <327535de-62ef-c424-72dd-43e54370e2c4@snarc.net> <1623202381.2272238.1562373935933@mail.yahoo.com> <919da89d-957f-3e21-99e4-e1643f0e53fb@snarc.net> <2528AD77-E1E2-455A-91DF-CCF25BFD62A0@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Actually the cheapest Apple-1 reproduction is just over 4 figures. A > reproduction with date correct components cost as much as 5 figures. > A work-alike like a replica-1 is cheap, maybe $150 No idea why people would go 5 figures on a replica that is still a replica? The only reason for the high price on the original is Steve Jobs (reality distortion field.) - Ethan From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 8 10:02:04 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 08:02:04 -0700 Subject: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West In-Reply-To: References: <58df4593-06fa-5eb1-ae8f-49c9103b1add@snarc.net> <790308787.2265831.1562372167664@mail.yahoo.com> <327535de-62ef-c424-72dd-43e54370e2c4@snarc.net> <1623202381.2272238.1562373935933@mail.yahoo.com> <919da89d-957f-3e21-99e4-e1643f0e53fb@snarc.net> <2528AD77-E1E2-455A-91DF-CCF25BFD62A0@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 7/8/19 7:43 AM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: >> Actually the cheapest Apple-1 reproduction is just over 4 figures.? A >> reproduction with date correct components cost as much as 5 figures. >> A work-alike like a replica-1 is cheap, maybe $150 > > No idea why people would go 5 figures on a replica that is still a replica? > > The only reason for the high price on the original is Steve Jobs > (reality distortion field.) Practically speaking, what's the difference between a close working replica and the original? Are the bits somehow imbued with some additional spiritual property? The replica may actually be more reliable. --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jul 8 10:25:55 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 17:25:55 +0200 Subject: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West In-Reply-To: References: <58df4593-06fa-5eb1-ae8f-49c9103b1add@snarc.net> <790308787.2265831.1562372167664@mail.yahoo.com> <327535de-62ef-c424-72dd-43e54370e2c4@snarc.net> <1623202381.2272238.1562373935933@mail.yahoo.com> <919da89d-957f-3e21-99e4-e1643f0e53fb@snarc.net> <2528AD77-E1E2-455A-91DF-CCF25BFD62A0@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Jul 2019 at 17:02, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > Practically speaking, what's the difference between a close working > replica and the original? Are the bits somehow imbued with some > additional spiritual property? > > The replica may actually be more reliable. Spoken like a non-collector. :-) It's OK, it's not condemnatory, I've just noticed some people are like that. I have seen a handful of original Leonardo da Vinci works. "Girl with ermine" was the best, for me, in Krakow. But I had the chance to see the Mona Lisa in the Louvre and the Last Supper in Milan. Both would have meant paying and queuing for hours. I said no. I'm not that into them. But of course millions do every year. I got a thrill hearing a player piano play a roll cut by Gershwin himself playing Rhapsody in Blue, though. Partly it depends what you're into, partly convenience, partly preference. I never wear designer clothes and think the whole idea is silly. (I was much impressed by Naomi Klein's /No Logo/ but I was like this before it. Recommended read anyway. It's a Liff in the Douglas Adams sense.) But designer jeans, say, I'd expect to be comfier and fit better. Designer *T-shirts* strike me as just ridiculous. It's an ordinary tee with a name printed on it. The book taught me how ludicrous that was. Would you consider working with an emulator of a vintage machine just as good as the real thing? If a Raspberry Pi, costing $35 and running on milli-Amps, could save you the hassle of running a full-size minicomputer on expensive 3-phase power and cooling -- would that be enough? If yes, then fine. Perhaps you like the PiDP-11. If no, then I get you. Part of the fun for me is that it's the real thing. I don't just want to play games on emulators. I want to experience the speed, the noise, the smells, the whole experience of using a vintage computer. But other people just want to _own_ one and would be happy with the experience of the emulator. They'd prefer their rare machine, in proper original packaging, safe in a clean dry place, and using the emulator for the fun of old games. Both are legitimate to me. My vintage machines are often a bit grubby. I don't care if they _look_ new but I want them to _work_ and work well. I max out the RAM, fit bigger disks, etc. I am not much bothered if it is stock or mint condition but working is important. For others, original packaging and it looking nice is. Thus, Retrobr1te and all that. I'd never bother. It just takes all sorts. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Jul 8 11:12:44 2019 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 11:12:44 -0500 Subject: vax stuff Message-ID: <004c01d535a7$fa0cc890$ee2659b0$@classiccmp.org> 2 PrintServer 17 2 PrintServer 17 high-capacity (1500 sheet) paper trays 3 PS17 Maintenance kits (220 V) 2-4 PS17 Toner cartridges 2 LS17 Toner cartridges 1 MicroVax 3100 1 InfoServer 1000 1 vertical SCSI storage rack Apparently in Johannesburg.. If interest contact me off-list. J From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 8 11:19:09 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 09:19:09 -0700 Subject: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West In-Reply-To: References: <58df4593-06fa-5eb1-ae8f-49c9103b1add@snarc.net> <790308787.2265831.1562372167664@mail.yahoo.com> <327535de-62ef-c424-72dd-43e54370e2c4@snarc.net> <1623202381.2272238.1562373935933@mail.yahoo.com> <919da89d-957f-3e21-99e4-e1643f0e53fb@snarc.net> <2528AD77-E1E2-455A-91DF-CCF25BFD62A0@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 7/8/19 8:25 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > Spoken like a non-collector. :-) I suppose that's the root of it. I'm basically a pragmatist. I give away old hardware that no longer has any use to me. When I am eventually forced to downsize, (or my widow is) most of the stuff will go either to the recyclers or to the landfill. I am not my possessions. I recall the Homebrew CC at SLAC auditorium where the Apple I was rolled out for a special price. Since I already had a MITS box, I wasn't very enthusiastic about laying out cash for a single-board microcomputer--a feeling shared by several other people I knew. At any rate, if I'd have sprung for one, it'd be gone by now, as its utility has long passed. While I can appreciate painted artworks for the genius behind them, I'm fully aware that they're just blobs of paint on a bit of canvas or wood and that an accurate replica could be fashioned without too much trouble using modern technology. What matters to me is [b]documentation[/b], however it's preserved. I'm often faced with a bit of old data and I need to know the details upon which it was fabricated. That has value to me. Al K has been invaluable in this respect. As far as owning a watch that was worn by Charles Lindbergh, okay, if it keeps good time; otherwise, not so much. --Chuck From coreyvcf at gmail.com Mon Jul 8 10:10:16 2019 From: coreyvcf at gmail.com (corey cohen) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 11:10:16 -0400 Subject: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West In-Reply-To: References: <58df4593-06fa-5eb1-ae8f-49c9103b1add@snarc.net> <790308787.2265831.1562372167664@mail.yahoo.com> <327535de-62ef-c424-72dd-43e54370e2c4@snarc.net> <1623202381.2272238.1562373935933@mail.yahoo.com> <919da89d-957f-3e21-99e4-e1643f0e53fb@snarc.net> <2528AD77-E1E2-455A-91DF-CCF25BFD62A0@gmail.com> Message-ID: The high price isn?t a Steve Jobs distortion field. The Apple-1 was collectible in the 1980?s before Jobs became the one we all remember. The Apple-1 was really the 1st collectible personal computer and it was produced in very limited numbers for a very short time and was tied the grandparent to the Apple II and all other Apple products. As for the replicas being more reliable, only if they are built using modern sockets with modern caps and TTL chips where possible. The original boards still differ a lot from the replicas because the techniques used to make the PCB boards are no longer used or legal due to environmental laws and the dying art of how they made PCBs in the 70?s. As for why a replica can cost so much, look at the prices for some of the items on the Apple-1 like the ceramic 6502, the shift registers or RAM. They aren?t expensive because they are on an Apple-1, but there are people who collect those vintage chips also. Cheers, Corey corey cohen u??o? ???o? Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 8, 2019, at 11:02 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 7/8/19 7:43 AM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: >>> Actually the cheapest Apple-1 reproduction is just over 4 figures. A >>> reproduction with date correct components cost as much as 5 figures. >>> A work-alike like a replica-1 is cheap, maybe $150 >> >> No idea why people would go 5 figures on a replica that is still a replica? >> >> The only reason for the high price on the original is Steve Jobs >> (reality distortion field.) > > Practically speaking, what's the difference between a close working > replica and the original? Are the bits somehow imbued with some > additional spiritual property? > > The replica may actually be more reliable. > > --Chuck > > > From rtomek at ceti.pl Mon Jul 8 13:09:41 2019 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 20:09:41 +0200 Subject: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West In-Reply-To: References: <790308787.2265831.1562372167664@mail.yahoo.com> <327535de-62ef-c424-72dd-43e54370e2c4@snarc.net> <1623202381.2272238.1562373935933@mail.yahoo.com> <919da89d-957f-3e21-99e4-e1643f0e53fb@snarc.net> <2528AD77-E1E2-455A-91DF-CCF25BFD62A0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20190708180941.GA22446@tau1.ceti.pl> On Mon, Jul 08, 2019 at 09:19:09AM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 7/8/19 8:25 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > > > > Spoken like a non-collector. :-) > > I suppose that's the root of it. I'm basically a pragmatist. I give > away old hardware that no longer has any use to me. When I am > eventually forced to downsize, (or my widow is) most of the stuff will > go either to the recyclers or to the landfill. I am not my possessions. > > I recall the Homebrew CC at SLAC auditorium where the Apple I was rolled > out for a special price. Since I already had a MITS box, I wasn't very > enthusiastic about laying out cash for a single-board microcomputer--a > feeling shared by several other people I knew. At any rate, if I'd > have sprung for one, it'd be gone by now, as its utility has long passed. Yeah. I was a proud owner of Amiga 2000C... or B. A big box with place for cards, and a memory extension inside (i.e. one slot filled), and two click-click-click-ing floppy drives. And a standalone mech keyboard. And green monocolor monitor. When I went to buy a 486, I had to sell it in second hand shop to raise money. It went for 600 Polish zloty (about 1/5 of 486 price), which (I estimate) was about 200-300 buckies at the time. Now they tell me (bastards!) that said keyboard alone can go for 1000+ euros. And never mind the big box, mem extender and the rest. But like you say. Amiga had less _practical_ value at that time than a lousy PC, which came with a hard drive (finally, I could install Linux and run LaTeX on it) and VGA (Doom!! UFO: Enemy Unknown!!!!), color monitor, not blinking at 640x400... Much better for anything I wanted to do with a computer then and now. So be it. I rarely do such things as remembering past decisions which later proved to be wrong, and bitching and whipping myself in guilt - especially if at the particular time it was the best decision I could have made. Now if any of you guys ever see an Amiga 2000 with small green happy dragon stickered to the keyboard, say "hello, little ami" from me. > While I can appreciate painted artworks for the genius behind them, I'm > fully aware that they're just blobs of paint on a bit of canvas or wood > and that an accurate replica could be fashioned without too much trouble > using modern technology. > > What matters to me is [b]documentation[/b], however it's preserved. I'm > often faced with a bit of old data and I need to know the details upon > which it was fabricated. That has value to me. Al K has been > invaluable in this respect. I stick around here mostly for learning. I am almost an informational omnivore (limiting to subjects of interest at the time), so I get everything. Stories about smoking caps. Or how a mainframe warmed water in open swimming pool. Or even how John Titor swindled Apple I board supposed to be owned by Guy D from under his nose and now sits on many such boards, retired and sipping pinacolada. Reading archives of this list and planning whose basement to rummage in a night after funeral. C'mon folks. Let's make cruel jokes at him. He cannot do a shit about it, or else he will ruin his future :-). > As far as owning a watch that was worn by Charles Lindbergh, okay, if it > keeps good time; otherwise, not so much. You have not weared a watch if you did not try ones from Salvadore Dali. The lousy watchmaker's works not only cannot keep up the time, they even cannot keep up the shape. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jul 8 13:30:36 2019 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2019 13:30:36 -0500 Subject: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West In-Reply-To: <20190708180941.GA22446@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <790308787.2265831.1562372167664@mail.yahoo.com> <327535de-62ef-c424-72dd-43e54370e2c4@snarc.net> <1623202381.2272238.1562373935933@mail.yahoo.com> <919da89d-957f-3e21-99e4-e1643f0e53fb@snarc.net> <2528AD77-E1E2-455A-91DF-CCF25BFD62A0@gmail.com> <20190708180941.GA22446@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <20190708184107.40FBD4E6C5@mx2.ezwind.net> At 01:09 PM 7/8/2019, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: >Now they tell me (bastards!) that said keyboard >alone can go for 1000+ euros. And never mind the big box, mem extender >and the rest. What? Why? I must have a few in the warehouse... - John From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jul 8 14:29:57 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 15:29:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: KL10-A/KL10-B differences Message-ID: <20190708192957.CF45118C0E1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So I'm a little puzzled by something, and I was wondering if anyone here knows the answer. So early KL10's (KL10-A's, to be precise) only support a single DTE20, and no RH20's. Later ones supported up to 4 of the former, and up to 8 of the latter. I always supposed this to be part and parcel of the 'Model A/Model B' CPU difference, but no... EK-0KL10-02 Part 1 (no title, seems to be notes for F/S) pg. 9, says both KL10-A and KL10-B's are PA (DEC jargon for the Model A CPU - below), but the former has no RH20's, the latter does. (A note at the bottom of the page says that a PA is a 'Model A', and describes it as having "internal channels". The PV is a 'Model B' - extended addressing, larger ucode, faster clock.) So my new theory is that it's the MBox (either the backplane, the boards, or the wiring from it to connectors, etc) that is the difference between the KL10-A and the KL10-B. Can anyone confirm this and/or provide details of the differences? Pictures of the MBox in a KL10-A would be good, too. Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jul 8 14:56:08 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 12:56:08 -0700 Subject: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West In-Reply-To: References: <58df4593-06fa-5eb1-ae8f-49c9103b1add@snarc.net> <790308787.2265831.1562372167664@mail.yahoo.com> <327535de-62ef-c424-72dd-43e54370e2c4@snarc.net> <1623202381.2272238.1562373935933@mail.yahoo.com> <919da89d-957f-3e21-99e4-e1643f0e53fb@snarc.net> <2528AD77-E1E2-455A-91DF-CCF25BFD62A0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <198030a0-c839-b5e1-c588-57ac53c18043@bitsavers.org> On 7/8/19 9:19 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > What matters to me is [b]documentation[/b], however it's preserved. I'm > often faced with a bit of old data and I need to know the details upon > which it was fabricated. That has value to me. Al K has been > invaluable in this respect. > Thanks, Chuck. Keeping old information available is why I spend so much time/money on doing it. From roger.addy at charter.net Mon Jul 8 14:17:36 2019 From: roger.addy at charter.net (Roger Addy) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 12:17:36 -0700 Subject: RS232 Communications HP9000 Series 320 In-Reply-To: <64c79dde-8b17-f4d6-249d-72502fa9eccd@gmail.com> References: <64c79dde-8b17-f4d6-249d-72502fa9eccd@gmail.com> Message-ID: <42682ad1-b899-ec03-9322-a26c89cfe9f4@charter.net> Thank you Carlos, I have that cable currently and can confirm it reroutes the pinout to RS232 standard for PCs.? I can dialog with the computer, at least I think I am.? When I put it into dialog on the host, the keys I press on the host shows on the connected PC and vice-versa.? I tried sending an ASCII file to the PC using the CMM software and all is get is the word "PROMPT" on the PC screen.? I think the host is expecting a response from the PC.? The software on the system is running a CMM.? I was hoping there is a command string that I can use to send the files in the operating system, bypassing the CMM software.? Thank you for your help. Roger On 7/7/2019 8:14 PM, Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez wrote: > Roger Addy via cctech wrote: >> Hi All, >> >> First post here.? I have a HP9000 Series 320 computer with a HP Drive >> system.? It uses the HPL 2.1 (I think) operating system. I'm trying >> to get some ASCII files out of the system using the RS232 port.? The >> port is female DB9, so I'm assuming it's DCE. I got an HP cable DB9 >> to DB25 which reorients the pins to PC standard RS232 DTE.? I can get >> a connection with the HP. but when I try to send a file it just shows >> the word "PROMPT" on the PC. I'm not sure what to do at this point.? >> I'm currently using Tera Term.? Any advice is appreciated. > I have this HP cable part # 98561-61604, which I think is exactly for > early HP9000-300 machines.? It is a male DE-9 to female DB-25 cable, > and the pinout is as follows: > > Male DE9???????? Female DB25 > --------???????? ---------- > 1 ---------------- 20 DTR > 2 ---------------- 2? TD > 3 ---------------- 3? RD > 4 ---------------- 4? RTS > 5 ---------------- 5? CTS > 6 ---------------- 6? DSR > 7 ---------------- 7? SG > 8 ---------------- 8? CD > 9 ---------------- 22 RI > > Clearly, the DE-9 is not a PC-style serial pinout. > > carlos. > > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jul 8 14:59:51 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 19:59:51 +0000 Subject: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West In-Reply-To: References: <58df4593-06fa-5eb1-ae8f-49c9103b1add@snarc.net> <790308787.2265831.1562372167664@mail.yahoo.com> <327535de-62ef-c424-72dd-43e54370e2c4@snarc.net> <1623202381.2272238.1562373935933@mail.yahoo.com> <919da89d-957f-3e21-99e4-e1643f0e53fb@snarc.net> <2528AD77-E1E2-455A-91DF-CCF25BFD62A0@gmail.com> , Message-ID: The value of Apple 1s are clearly a combination of many things. They're about a factor of 500x because they were Apples first product. There is no question about that. Other factors include limited run. The fact that may were turned in for credit to get an Apple II made them even rarer. Value is what the buyer will pay. At $600+ they were not attractive to me at the time because at that time, I could get a working, used, S-100 for $400. Even when the Apple II came out, its limited expansion were not of interest to me. Apple's hardware design was poor ( the disk system is an example ). Another was blowing out printer interfaces because you tuned them on in the wrong order. Even the selection of the 6502 was based on how cheap one could make a computer for the masses ( not saying that the 6502 wasn't a good design, only that the selection was based on cost, not quality received ). Rare is not equal to valuable. Rare and desired combine to make value. If I didn't expect to make a profit I'd not personally buy an apple 1 for more than $200. I don't have the funds to buy one at the current rate. Like many stocks, I personally think it is over valued. I think that some day the value will drop. I couldn't guess as to how much. The only people growing up today that would pay anything like that amount, would only pay that much because they expected to make a profit. It is just an investment. As a museum item, it is interesting. I do wish I'd bought one when I started. I'd not have it today, though. When the value went over a few tens of thousands, I'm sure I'd have sold it. All stated, buy me, are just opinions. Done take offense as none was intended. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of corey cohen via cctalk Sent: Monday, July 8, 2019 8:10 AM To: Chuck Guzis; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West The high price isn?t a Steve Jobs distortion field. The Apple-1 was collectible in the 1980?s before Jobs became the one we all remember. The Apple-1 was really the 1st collectible personal computer and it was produced in very limited numbers for a very short time and was tied the grandparent to the Apple II and all other Apple products. As for the replicas being more reliable, only if they are built using modern sockets with modern caps and TTL chips where possible. The original boards still differ a lot from the replicas because the techniques used to make the PCB boards are no longer used or legal due to environmental laws and the dying art of how they made PCBs in the 70?s. As for why a replica can cost so much, look at the prices for some of the items on the Apple-1 like the ceramic 6502, the shift registers or RAM. They aren?t expensive because they are on an Apple-1, but there are people who collect those vintage chips also. Cheers, Corey corey cohen u??o? ???o? Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 8, 2019, at 11:02 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 7/8/19 7:43 AM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: >>> Actually the cheapest Apple-1 reproduction is just over 4 figures. A >>> reproduction with date correct components cost as much as 5 figures. >>> A work-alike like a replica-1 is cheap, maybe $150 >> >> No idea why people would go 5 figures on a replica that is still a replica? >> >> The only reason for the high price on the original is Steve Jobs >> (reality distortion field.) > > Practically speaking, what's the difference between a close working > replica and the original? Are the bits somehow imbued with some > additional spiritual property? > > The replica may actually be more reliable. > > --Chuck > > > From rtomek at ceti.pl Mon Jul 8 15:47:53 2019 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 22:47:53 +0200 Subject: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West In-Reply-To: <20190708184107.40FBD4E6C5@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <327535de-62ef-c424-72dd-43e54370e2c4@snarc.net> <1623202381.2272238.1562373935933@mail.yahoo.com> <919da89d-957f-3e21-99e4-e1643f0e53fb@snarc.net> <2528AD77-E1E2-455A-91DF-CCF25BFD62A0@gmail.com> <20190708180941.GA22446@tau1.ceti.pl> <20190708184107.40FBD4E6C5@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20190708204753.GB22446@tau1.ceti.pl> On Mon, Jul 08, 2019 at 01:30:36PM -0500, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > At 01:09 PM 7/8/2019, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > >Now they tell me (bastards!) that said keyboard > >alone can go for 1000+ euros. And never mind the big box, mem extender > >and the rest. > > What? Why? I must have a few in the warehouse... Cool. I have got the number from some keyboard-0-prn websites, given in Deutsche Marks, translated liberally to more current currency. I cannot tell if number was right, but if it was right few years ago then I would expect it to only go up over time. Lucky you! -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Jul 8 15:10:25 2019 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 16:10:25 -0400 Subject: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West In-Reply-To: References: <58df4593-06fa-5eb1-ae8f-49c9103b1add@snarc.net> <790308787.2265831.1562372167664@mail.yahoo.com> <327535de-62ef-c424-72dd-43e54370e2c4@snarc.net> <1623202381.2272238.1562373935933@mail.yahoo.com> <919da89d-957f-3e21-99e4-e1643f0e53fb@snarc.net> <2528AD77-E1E2-455A-91DF-CCF25BFD62A0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <22a81b62-79f4-c140-2f73-ff6c4816cd99@snarc.net> > The only people growing up today that would pay anything like that amount, would only pay that much because they expected to make a profit. It is just an investment. Don't underestimate the force of "bragging rights" to people who can afford such things. Many of them buy an Apple 1 because they can, not because it's an investment. Anyway: we're having at least 10 of 'em at VCF West, did I mention that? :) From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jul 8 16:32:13 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 21:32:13 +0000 Subject: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West In-Reply-To: <22a81b62-79f4-c140-2f73-ff6c4816cd99@snarc.net> References: <58df4593-06fa-5eb1-ae8f-49c9103b1add@snarc.net> <790308787.2265831.1562372167664@mail.yahoo.com> <327535de-62ef-c424-72dd-43e54370e2c4@snarc.net> <1623202381.2272238.1562373935933@mail.yahoo.com> <919da89d-957f-3e21-99e4-e1643f0e53fb@snarc.net> <2528AD77-E1E2-455A-91DF-CCF25BFD62A0@gmail.com> , <22a81b62-79f4-c140-2f73-ff6c4816cd99@snarc.net> Message-ID: Yes Evan, you mentioned that. Eventually there will be people settling estates. The first ones sold will do well but eventually, even those that want bragging rights will have little interest in such items. Apple is already at a point that they no longer have a hold on the market. They may be able to get a couple more geeky gotta have items, like the watch, but their days are already numbered. Their computers are virtually unrepairable, if something goes wrong( talk to anyone that has one but maybe just because of their own policies, not that the hardware is any worse or better than anyone else's ). I expect that Apple-1s will hold their value for at least the rest of my life time, if not go up more. So, what should I care. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Evan Koblentz via cctalk Sent: Monday, July 8, 2019 1:10 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West > The only people growing up today that would pay anything like that amount, would only pay that much because they expected to make a profit. It is just an investment. Don't underestimate the force of "bragging rights" to people who can afford such things. Many of them buy an Apple 1 because they can, not because it's an investment. Anyway: we're having at least 10 of 'em at VCF West, did I mention that? :) From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 8 16:43:46 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 14:43:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West In-Reply-To: <22a81b62-79f4-c140-2f73-ff6c4816cd99@snarc.net> References: <58df4593-06fa-5eb1-ae8f-49c9103b1add@snarc.net> <790308787.2265831.1562372167664@mail.yahoo.com> <327535de-62ef-c424-72dd-43e54370e2c4@snarc.net> <1623202381.2272238.1562373935933@mail.yahoo.com> <919da89d-957f-3e21-99e4-e1643f0e53fb@snarc.net> <2528AD77-E1E2-455A-91DF-CCF25BFD62A0@gmail.com> <22a81b62-79f4-c140-2f73-ff6c4816cd99@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Jul 2019, Evan Koblentz via cctalk wrote: >> The only people growing up today that would pay anything like that amount, >> would only pay that much because they expected to make a profit. It is just >> an investment. > Don't underestimate the force of "bragging rights" to people who can afford > such things. Many of them buy an Apple 1 because they can, not because it's > an investment. > Anyway: we're having at least 10 of 'em at VCF West, did I mention that? :) To some yuppies, the cost is something to brag about being able to afford. To the truly wealthy, it is irrelevant. If Bill Gates wanted one, he would not have to economize elsewhere to afford it. And there are a lot of billionaires today. It would be a trivial expense for the nostalgia, or the "I wanted one, and couldn't get one then; but now I can." For your panel, a few questions to put to them: 1) Did you get one when they were current, or more recently? 2) For each of those two groups, WHY did you get one? 3) Did you later get an Apple ][? From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Jul 8 18:36:15 2019 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 17:36:15 -0600 Subject: KL10-A/KL10-B differences In-Reply-To: <20190708192957.CF45118C0E1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190708192957.CF45118C0E1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 1:30 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > So early KL10's (KL10-A's, to be precise) only support a single DTE20, and > no RH20's. Later ones supported up to 4 of the former, and up to 8 of the > latter. > That's because the 1080 has different I/O backplanes than the 1090/1091/1095/2040/2050/2060. The 1080 was intended to replace a KA10 or KI10, so it would be used with external memory and external channels. It only needed a single DTE20 for the internal console PDP-11, and it didn't need an RH20 because the disk would be attached via an RH10 on the external I/O bus and external memory bus. I always supposed this to be part and parcel of the 'Model A/Model B' CPU > difference, but no... EK-0KL10-02 Part 1 (no title, seems to be notes for > F/S) pg. 9, says both KL10-A and KL10-B's are PA (DEC jargon for the Model > A CPU - below), but the former has no RH20's, the latter does. > The -PA and -PV designations (and much later -PW for -1095 and -2065) are for the "arithmetic processor" (APR), which is the main CPU portion of the KL10. That's independent of the number of DTE and RH20 slots, though AFAIK DEC never sold a configuration with a -PV CPU and the small I/O backplane. > > (A note at the bottom of the page says that a PA is a 'Model A', and > describes it as having "internal channels". The PV is a 'Model B' - > extended addressing, larger ucode, faster clock.) > A system with a -PA APR could have internal RH20 channels or not, and it could have cache or not, depending on the system configuration For example: * DECsystem-1080: cache, external memory bus adapter (DMA20), and external I/O bus adapter (DIA20), but no internal channels * DECSYSTEM-2040: internal channels (usually two) but no cache or external memory bus adapter. So my new theory is that it's the MBox (either the backplane, the boards, > or the wiring from it to connectors, etc) that is the difference between > the KL10-A and the KL10-B. > It's not just the MBOX; there are significant EBOX differences as well. Various modules from the entire CPU are different, and the backplane wiring is slightly different. It was possible to upgrade a -PA to -PV by swapping modules and adding some wraps to the backplane, but if you had the small I/O backplane, upgrading to -PV didn't make it possible to add any more channels or DTE20s. Part of the motivation for upgrading a -PA to -PV, even if you weren't planning to use extended addressing, is that the -PV is faster than the -PA. Eric From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jul 8 18:51:32 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 19:51:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: KL10-A/KL10-B differences Message-ID: <20190708235132.52ABA18C0E6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > So my new theory is that it's the MBox (either the backplane, the > boards, or the wiring from it to connectors, etc) that is the difference > between the KL10-A and the KL10-B. So I wuz confused; the second backplane is not the MBox (which is apparently on the main CPU backplane), but an 'I/O backplane'. The one in the KL10-B is different+larger and holds the RH20s, etc. Noel From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Mon Jul 8 19:50:27 2019 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 17:50:27 -0700 Subject: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West In-Reply-To: <58df4593-06fa-5eb1-ae8f-49c9103b1add@snarc.net> References: <58df4593-06fa-5eb1-ae8f-49c9103b1add@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Jul 5, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Evan Koblentz via cctalk wrote: > > Today I can announce that 10 original Apple 1 computers will be displayed at VCF West, and we're working on getting more. Why? That is, what?s the advantage of having 10+ instead of one or two? The Apple I never did very much, so is there really much to actually show on them? I hope they?re not crowding out anything more interesting. -- Chris From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 8 20:16:46 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 18:16:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West In-Reply-To: References: <58df4593-06fa-5eb1-ae8f-49c9103b1add@snarc.net> Message-ID: > On Jul 5, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Evan Koblentz via cctalk wrote: >> Today I can announce that 10 original Apple 1 computers will be displayed at VCF West, and we're working on getting more. On Mon, 8 Jul 2019, Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: > Why? That is, what?s the advantage of having 10+ instead of one or two? I have heard that there is quite a bit of variation from one to the next. But I haven't had the chance to see several side by side to compare. It hadn't yet reached the stage of mass production of absolutley identical units. The PEOPLE who have them, and the stories about how they got into it are also interesting. Even the people who bought into it more recently. "WHY?" "If you're willing to pay that kind of money, maybe you should come look at some of the stuff that I no longer need." > The Apple I never did very much, so is there really much to actually show on them? > > I hope they?re not crowding out anything more interesting. Not to worry. Evan is very capable of expanding the space if it gets too crowded, rather than turning away anything that is more interesting. If anything, having the crowds all clustered around the "artifacts of divine provenance" will make it less crowded around the good stuff! I hope that my health holds up well enough to fill the consignment area with a few cubic meters of stuff that I need to get out of my house. And, not to worry, I will not be bringing any Apple 1 computers. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From barythrin at gmail.com Mon Jul 8 22:02:27 2019 From: barythrin at gmail.com (John Herron) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 22:02:27 -0500 Subject: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West In-Reply-To: <20190708180941.GA22446@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <790308787.2265831.1562372167664@mail.yahoo.com> <327535de-62ef-c424-72dd-43e54370e2c4@snarc.net> <1623202381.2272238.1562373935933@mail.yahoo.com> <919da89d-957f-3e21-99e4-e1643f0e53fb@snarc.net> <2528AD77-E1E2-455A-91DF-CCF25BFD62A0@gmail.com> <20190708180941.GA22446@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: Maybe I should Google this but I thought John Titor was the man claiming to be from the future and looking for an IBM 5100 for the ability to run APL. I'm not familiar with any apple 1 story but I remember him posting and calling in to a night time radio show. I didn't follow everything so I coulda missed something or maybe it was a different Titor claimee. Maybe he'd be one of the folks who brings one? :-) On Mon, Jul 8, 2019, 1:09 PM Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > Or even how John Titor swindled Apple I > board supposed to be owned by Guy D from under his nose and now sits > on many such boards, retired and sipping pinacolada. > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 8 22:24:57 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 20:24:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West In-Reply-To: References: <790308787.2265831.1562372167664@mail.yahoo.com> <327535de-62ef-c424-72dd-43e54370e2c4@snarc.net> <1623202381.2272238.1562373935933@mail.yahoo.com> <919da89d-957f-3e21-99e4-e1643f0e53fb@snarc.net> <2528AD77-E1E2-455A-91DF-CCF25BFD62A0@gmail.com> <20190708180941.GA22446@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: > On Mon, Jul 8, 2019, 1:09 PM Tomasz Rola via cctalk > wrote: > >> Or even how John Titor swindled Apple I >> board supposed to be owned by Guy D from under his nose and now sits >> on many such boards, retired and sipping pinacolada. On Mon, 8 Jul 2019, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > Maybe I should Google this but I thought John Titor was the man claiming to > be from the future and looking for an IBM 5100 for the ability to run APL. > I'm not familiar with any apple 1 story but I remember him posting and > calling in to a night time radio show. I didn't follow everything so I > coulda missed something or maybe it was a different Titor claimee. > Maybe he'd be one of the folks who brings one? :-) I have publicly offered: If John Titor will give me a ONE WAY ride to 1960, I will get him his 5100, with both BASIC AND APL, and make some investments to fund his entire project. The investments will include only a few Apple 1 computers, because they will need to be discreet and low profile, although it would be very tempting to make a few "adjustments" to history. If the ride is ROUND-TRIP, then all he gets is a good look at a 5100. I'll take the long way back. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Jul 8 22:27:07 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 21:27:07 -0600 Subject: Email delivery protocols / methods. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm combining my replies into one message to avoid spamming the mailing list. Thank you all for intriguing responses. :-) On 7/5/19 3:28 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: >> ? FidoNet (FTN) > > As long as we're being silly, this isn't really one protocol. > There are a number of different ones, which can probably mostly be > characterized as thin wrappers (FTS-0001, Yoohoo(/2u2), etc) around > common file transfer protocols (zmodem, xmodem, and others). Fair enough. On 7/5/19 3:40 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Well, if the idea is to get that silly, UUCP isn't one protocol either. > And, technically. it isn't for moving email at all. Like FTP it is > for moving files. It is what happens after the files have been moved > that makes email, email. Also fair enough. On 7/5/19 4:06 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > It's not a holiday in most of the world, including where I am, however... ;-) > BITNET isn't really a protocol. Perhaps you mean NJE which was the > protocol used to implement the BITNET and related networks? Uh ? Ya! I meant NJE. ;-) > Although I think BSMTP (batch SMTP) was usually used to transfer > mail over NJE networks. $ReadingList++ > (Speaking of which, anyone want to join an NJE network?) Where can I find out more? > I have no idea what this one is. "Mail spool" could mean mean all > sorts of different things on all sorts of different systems. I was thinking an MUA accessing files in the mail spool (traditionally /var/spool/mail as far as I know) and not using an intermediate protocol (POP3 / IMAP / etc.). > Another one was the coloured book protocol used between academic > establishments over X.25 networks in the UK and Ireland and probably > elsewhere, Grey maybe, I forget which, probably for the best. $ReadingList++ > Then there is DECnet and/or Mail-11? I don't know how I missed that. > ?depending on what level of protocol you are talking about. Valid question. I don't have a distinction at the moment. > And phonenet which I often heard about but never saw. I think I have a term collision in my head. I /think/ I'm thinking of Home Phoneline Networking Alliance. > I worked for an email provider for about 15 years. We used just > about every protocol you can think of to transfer mail to customers, > including those already listed plus Kermit / X/Y/Zmodem / Blast (a file > transfer package few seem to have heard of) wrapped up in protocols > we came up with ourselves which often also used stuff like Zip to > compress the data for transmission. We used them to feed mail into all > sorts of email systems long since come and gone, for example CCmail, > Microsoft Mail and Pegasus Mail, to name but three from the 1990s. Intriguing. I think that CCmail / Microsoft Mail / Pegasus Mail were email technologies that used shared access to a common "Post Office" (directory structure). On 7/5/19 5:27 PM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > I use rsync (over ssh) for transferring between a couple of my mail servers. Hum. I'm curious to know more. Are you transferring / synchronizing mail boxes? Or are you using rsync as an intermediate transport between and outgoing spool on one system and an incoming spool on another system? On 7/5/19 5:40 PM, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > I have vague memories of batch email transfer utilities from the > BBS world. They were readers and/or transfer agents, but I imagine > some had their own transfer protocols and file formats. The only two > I can recall at the moment were QWK and Blue Wave. This probably > has some tie-in to FIDOnet as well. I've heard of QWK and "BinkP" is coming to mind for some reason. On 7/6/19 12:57 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > There's the MAIL-11 protocol (end to end, no MTAs) and the DECmail > protocol which may be some OSI-like thing, I'm not sure anymore. I guess I don't know enough about MAIL-11 to understand why you say end-to-end / no MTA. Was DECmail the OSI X.400 email implementation that DEC produced (I think) in the '90s? > For real strangeness there is the PLATO mail protocol, which involves > writing the mail into files, which are then extracted from PLATO into > the OS file system by a periodic batch job, then sent to another system > via file transfer (FTP or a predecessor), then pushed into the PLATO > file system, then picked up by a mail agent at that end. Ugh. $ReadingList++ On 7/6/19 1:33 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Those who quibble about the ftp being a separate entity from mail > protocol would do well to look at RFC 524 from 1973. There, the MAIL > command is implemented within the ftp structure (that is, it is an > ftp command). Yep. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jul 8 22:45:59 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 23:45:59 -0400 Subject: Email delivery protocols / methods. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > How many different protocols / methods can we collectively come up with > for how email can be transferred? There is the old AUTODIN system, which is email before email was "invented". I have never seen the protocol details, but there can not be much to it. -- Will From rtomek at ceti.pl Mon Jul 8 22:47:00 2019 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 05:47:00 +0200 Subject: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West In-Reply-To: References: <327535de-62ef-c424-72dd-43e54370e2c4@snarc.net> <1623202381.2272238.1562373935933@mail.yahoo.com> <919da89d-957f-3e21-99e4-e1643f0e53fb@snarc.net> <2528AD77-E1E2-455A-91DF-CCF25BFD62A0@gmail.com> <20190708180941.GA22446@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <20190709034700.GE22446@tau1.ceti.pl> On Mon, Jul 08, 2019 at 10:02:27PM -0500, John Herron wrote: > Maybe I should Google this but I thought John Titor was the man claiming to > be from the future and looking for an IBM 5100 for the ability to run APL. That is him. > I'm not familiar with any apple 1 story but I remember him posting and > calling in to a night time radio show. I didn't follow everything so I > coulda missed something or maybe it was a different Titor claimee. I thought that some fun could be made of him: invent some stories about how he conducts various petty crimes in a past in order to get hold of many precious classic computers. So that he could easily retire like some of use would like to (but no way, no Apple-1 for us). So, he could be sitting now (his "now", in the year, say, 2050), reading archives of this group and spraying his pinacolada on the monitor when he reads about his fictional misdeeds. And those stories would have been from his past, so he could not go back to correct me, for example, without changing his timeline. Well, on the other hand, if he is some kind of local incognito saint in the group, and I had no idea, than maybe making up stories about him is not the best idea. Is there any better way to play joke on John Titor? > Maybe he'd be one of the folks who brings one? :-) Yes, and get caught in a photo... -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 8 23:04:38 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 21:04:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West In-Reply-To: <20190709034700.GE22446@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <327535de-62ef-c424-72dd-43e54370e2c4@snarc.net> <1623202381.2272238.1562373935933@mail.yahoo.com> <919da89d-957f-3e21-99e4-e1643f0e53fb@snarc.net> <2528AD77-E1E2-455A-91DF-CCF25BFD62A0@gmail.com> <20190708180941.GA22446@tau1.ceti.pl> <20190709034700.GE22446@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Jul 2019, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > That is him. > I thought that some fun could be made of him: invent some stories > about how he conducts various petty crimes in a past in order to get > hold of many precious classic computers. So that he could easily > retire like some of use would like to (but no way, no Apple-1 for > us). Be careful about taunting a time traveller. He might read what you write and it might give him ideas. Then you might suddenly find that he has become your grandfather. Or his own grandfather. From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Jul 8 23:04:37 2019 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 23:04:37 -0500 Subject: sun microsystem manuals In-Reply-To: <35756c4f-9545-8303-4f0e-a9e5f4632736@mit.edu> References: <35756c4f-9545-8303-4f0e-a9e5f4632736@mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 6:47 AM Guy Fedorkow via cctalk wrote: > > I have a small stack of Sun 3 Administrator, Networking and Diagnostic > manuals, from about 1990. Contact me if you think anyone would want them? > Thanks I have scanned as many Sun-3 era manual as I've gotten my hands on, but I'm sure there are more out there. If you'd care to check the part numbers (like 800-xxxx-xx) of yours against my site, I'd pay shipping on any ones that I don't have posted there (you can use the search function on the left side): http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/Sun -j From dave at 661.org Mon Jul 8 23:54:34 2019 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 04:54:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: QEMU sparc with networking that works Message-ID: Does anyone here have any sort of guide on how to get QEMU working emulating a sparc or sparc64 machine WITH networking that actually works? I've been banging my head against zillions of guides that are dreadfully outdated or just don't work. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From rtomek at ceti.pl Mon Jul 8 23:54:38 2019 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 06:54:38 +0200 Subject: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West In-Reply-To: References: <919da89d-957f-3e21-99e4-e1643f0e53fb@snarc.net> <2528AD77-E1E2-455A-91DF-CCF25BFD62A0@gmail.com> <20190708180941.GA22446@tau1.ceti.pl> <20190709034700.GE22446@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <20190709045438.GF22446@tau1.ceti.pl> On Mon, Jul 08, 2019 at 09:04:38PM -0700, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 9 Jul 2019, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > >That is him. > >I thought that some fun could be made of him: invent some stories [...] > > Be careful about taunting a time traveller. > He might read what you write and it might give him ideas. Ah. Ok, you have convinced me. Sorry, John Titor. BTW, you would like a ride to the past? I would like a ride to the future. Although from what I have seen so far, maybe not... -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Jul 8 16:36:12 2019 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 17:36:12 -0400 Subject: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West In-Reply-To: References: <58df4593-06fa-5eb1-ae8f-49c9103b1add@snarc.net> <790308787.2265831.1562372167664@mail.yahoo.com> <327535de-62ef-c424-72dd-43e54370e2c4@snarc.net> <1623202381.2272238.1562373935933@mail.yahoo.com> <919da89d-957f-3e21-99e4-e1643f0e53fb@snarc.net> <2528AD77-E1E2-455A-91DF-CCF25BFD62A0@gmail.com> <22a81b62-79f4-c140-2f73-ff6c4816cd99@snarc.net> Message-ID: <1a57288e-4894-f115-5954-5e146e8a11e0@snarc.net> > Yes Evan, you mentioned that. I know; ergo my use of a smiley there... From guykd at optusnet.com.au Mon Jul 8 20:35:24 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 11:35:24 +1000 Subject: Box of HP 1000 series MUX cards - 12040 In-Reply-To: <64602e4e-693b-3e01-ccf8-537f68d37c16@cypress-tech.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190709113524.0121d1b8@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 12:18 PM 8/07/2019 +0000, jesse cypress-tech.com wrote: >If anyone wants 87 HP 1000 series mux cards for gold or to play around >with, I'm starting to clean house. The ebay link is below. > >https://www.ebay.com/itm/383039137321 Wow. Way to make everyone interested in restoring HP 1000 systems (me included) hate you. All those boards, dumped loose in one deep box, so most of them are guaranteed to have small parts broken, and everything scratched up. Are they all 'known dead' or something? Then wanting $600 as 'scrap gold recovery' value? Idk, is that appealing for gold scrappers? But it's like a red flag to a bull, for people potentially interested in seeing if any of the boards could be got working. "I'm going to destroy all these boards, and if you want to save them it's going to really cost you. Also, I promise to NOT pack them carefully for shipping, if you did pay the ransom." It's like you deliberately spoofed common attitudes to classic computer hardware, that are why so much of it is so rare by now. Or you're trolling the readers of this group. Oh and let me guess. You had crates full of documentation for these boards, but you already binned it all, right? Also mating cables for the boards, sold for 'low content copper scrap.' Hmm: http://www.cypress-tech.com/hp-1000-series.html 'Clean house'? Please tell us you are not stripping down intact systems into recycling bins? < Heartfelt Australian terms of endearment >, Guy From mark.kahrs at gmail.com Mon Jul 8 20:49:26 2019 From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 21:49:26 -0400 Subject: ALGOL-60 obit Message-ID: For those who like that sort of thing, here's more on the author of the PDP-8 ALGOL: https://ouscr.org.uk/index.php/obituaries?id=54 From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Jul 8 20:53:13 2019 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 21:53:13 -0400 Subject: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West In-Reply-To: References: <58df4593-06fa-5eb1-ae8f-49c9103b1add@snarc.net> Message-ID: <7e6af6cb-0f2f-1bf7-6807-7a7a52e587ce@snarc.net> >> Today I can announce that 10 original Apple 1 computers will be displayed at VCF West, and we're working on getting more. > Why? That is, what?s the advantage of having 10+ instead of one or two? Awesomeness. > The Apple I never did very much, so is there really much to actually show on them? You'd be surprised. There is a whole library of software out there. > I hope they?re not crowding out anything Nope. Plenty of room for everyone. From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Tue Jul 9 01:28:31 2019 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 23:28:31 -0700 Subject: Box of HP 1000 series MUX cards - 12040 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190709113524.0121d1b8@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20190709113524.0121d1b8@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On 7/8/2019 6:35 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > At 12:18 PM 8/07/2019 +0000, jesse cypress-tech.com wrote: >> If anyone wants 87 HP 1000 series mux cards for gold or to play around >> with, I'm starting to clean house. The ebay link is below. >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/383039137321 > > Wow. Way to make everyone interested in restoring HP 1000 systems (me included) hate you. I actually thought $8 per board wasn't a bad price. If these had been PDP-8 boards, I'd have bought them by now! Vince From kspt.tor at gmail.com Tue Jul 9 03:58:43 2019 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 10:58:43 +0200 Subject: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West In-Reply-To: References: <58df4593-06fa-5eb1-ae8f-49c9103b1add@snarc.net> <790308787.2265831.1562372167664@mail.yahoo.com> <327535de-62ef-c424-72dd-43e54370e2c4@snarc.net> <1623202381.2272238.1562373935933@mail.yahoo.com> <919da89d-957f-3e21-99e4-e1643f0e53fb@snarc.net> <2528AD77-E1E2-455A-91DF-CCF25BFD62A0@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Jul 2019 at 18:19, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > What matters to me is [b]documentation[/b], however it's preserved. I'm > often faced with a bit of old data and I need to know the details upon > which it was fabricated. That has value to me. Al K has been > invaluable in this respect. I collect all the documentation I can find (including my own old notes when I can find them). It's really hard to figure out exactly how something works when documentation is lost and there's nobody around with the knowledge. When I visited Ise shrine in Japan some years ago they were in the middle of building a completely new wooden bridge beside the existing one. They were building new temples as well. Turned out that every twenty years they routinely rebuild *everything*, including the items inside the temples and buildings. Then they tear down the old ones (and use the old material at other sites around the country). And still they claimed that the temples. bridges, items etc. had been there since around 1200 AD. I was a bit baffled about this, but when I had lunch in the nearest town a waiter noticed the foreigner and gave me a booklet to read. It was all explained there. It's simple enough: What they feel as important to preserve is the knowledge about how to build these things. The craftmanship and the artistry. 20 years is just about right - it's enough to hand over the craft to another generation, with overlap. And they've been doing this for hundreds of years. So, what is worth preserving is the *howto*, not the actual old things which would just detoriate more and more over time and eventually disappear. That's just "stuff", and immaterial, as it were. And, as I once witnessed a Viking ship replica going under in bad weather due to something not fully correct in the understanding of exactly how to construct a specific part of the bottom of the ship, I can fully appreciate the thinking. Knowledge gained over hundreds of years in wooden ship building can be lost over a generation or two, even if there's still a parallel tradition of building other types of boats. Which turned out not to be enough to understand how it was done. It can be painfully difficult to recreate, figure out, and document something that's lost, even if you have an old original in bad shape to look at. Which is why they've worked for decades at e.g. Roskilde in Denmark to recreate the knowledge. And the last time I visited that site they still couldn't build as well as the old builders, there was a newly built replica of a small boat where they had a beatifully preserved original nearby - the original still looked better. Give them a decade or two more, and it'll improve I'm sure. From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jul 9 05:42:26 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 12:42:26 +0200 Subject: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West In-Reply-To: References: <327535de-62ef-c424-72dd-43e54370e2c4@snarc.net> <1623202381.2272238.1562373935933@mail.yahoo.com> <919da89d-957f-3e21-99e4-e1643f0e53fb@snarc.net> <2528AD77-E1E2-455A-91DF-CCF25BFD62A0@gmail.com> <20190708180941.GA22446@tau1.ceti.pl> <20190709034700.GE22446@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 06:04, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Be careful about taunting a time traveller. > He might read what you write and it might give him ideas. Oh no! Roko's basilisk! You've wok+++ATH NO CARRIER From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jul 9 07:01:35 2019 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 07:01:35 -0500 Subject: Box of HP 1000 series MUX cards - 12040 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190709113524.0121d1b8@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <64602e4e-693b-3e01-ccf8-537f68d37c16@cypress-tech.com> <3.0.6.32.20190709113524.0121d1b8@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <005901d5364e$0e9d5a80$2bd80f80$@classiccmp.org> Guy wrote... ---------------------------- Wow. Way to make everyone interested in restoring HP 1000 systems (me included) hate you. ---------------------------- I'm thrilled that he took the time to post them here before they hit the shredder. Thanks Jesse, much appreciated! From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jul 9 08:14:16 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 09:14:16 -0400 Subject: Email delivery protocols / methods. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3E8F9F02-26D6-4A8F-B7DE-93F77567B91E@comcast.net> > On Jul 8, 2019, at 11:27 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > ... > On 7/6/19 12:57 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> There's the MAIL-11 protocol (end to end, no MTAs) and the DECmail protocol which may be some OSI-like thing, I'm not sure anymore. > > I guess I don't know enough about MAIL-11 to understand why you say end-to-end / no MTA. No mail servers. You address mail to node::user and it contacts the mail protocol listener at that node, which drops the message into the mailbox of that user on that system. > Was DECmail the OSI X.400 email implementation that DEC produced (I think) in the '90s? Yes, in ALL-IN-ONE and the like. An interesting point is that it was not really accepted as the internal mail tool (except by some corporate overhead departments); engineering persisted in using MAIL-11 based email on the internal network. >> For real strangeness there is the PLATO mail protocol, which involves writing the mail into files, which are then extracted from PLATO into the OS file system by a periodic batch job, then sent to another system via file transfer (FTP or a predecessor), then pushed into the PLATO file system, then picked up by a mail agent at that end. Ugh. > > $ReadingList++ You're unlikely to find documentation for this, unfortunately. It's part of the "linked systems" capability of PLATO, a loosely connected collection of systems which could exchange email, notes (as in Lotus Notes, which goes back to a very popular PLATO tool) and, in a very limited way, files. It used very strange custom network hardware originally, and eventually moved to TCP/IP under CDCnet. paul From web at loomcom.com Tue Jul 9 11:12:02 2019 From: web at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 09:12:02 -0700 Subject: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West In-Reply-To: References: <58df4593-06fa-5eb1-ae8f-49c9103b1add@snarc.net> <790308787.2265831.1562372167664@mail.yahoo.com> <327535de-62ef-c424-72dd-43e54370e2c4@snarc.net> <1623202381.2272238.1562373935933@mail.yahoo.com> <919da89d-957f-3e21-99e4-e1643f0e53fb@snarc.net> <2528AD77-E1E2-455A-91DF-CCF25BFD62A0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <87muhnxk4t.fsf@loomcom.com> Tor Arntsen via cctalk writes: > On Mon, 8 Jul 2019 at 18:19, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: > >> What matters to me is [b]documentation[/b], however it's preserved. I'm >> often faced with a bit of old data and I need to know the details upon >> which it was fabricated. That has value to me. Al K has been >> invaluable in this respect. > > I collect all the documentation I can find (including my own old notes > when I can find them). It's really hard to figure out exactly how > something works when documentation is lost and there's nobody around > with the knowledge. This was by far the biggest challenge I had when writing the 3B2/400 simulator for SIMH. Documentation was scarce or nonexistent for almost every aspect of the 3B2 system board internals, and I had to work out a lot of it myself by watching a logic analyzer. Thankfully, as the emulator progressed and word got out, it attracted the attention of some people with very useful documentation who kindly offered it to me. I've been hoarding what I can find and scanning it as fast as possible to get it all archived online in digital form as well as maintaining the original physical copies. But as a result, I'm keenly aware of how much this stuff is ephemeral. There are still lots and lots of AT&T publications relating to the 3B2 that are (as far as I can tell) lost to history and probably gone forever. -Seth -- Seth Morabito Poulsbo, WA, USA web at loomcom.com From lyndon at orthanc.ca Tue Jul 9 11:56:53 2019 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 09:56:53 -0700 Subject: Email delivery protocols / methods. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40c8d9dfe4e63921@orthanc.ca> > MMDF MMDF was[*] an MTA, not a protocol. (See also PMDF.) --lyndon * Is anyone still running MMDF? The last production shops I had my fingers in that ran it was circa 1996. That was when SCO was still a thing, and MMDF was its MTA of choice. From athornton at gmail.com Tue Jul 9 17:11:46 2019 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 15:11:46 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Jul 9, 2019, at 10:00 AM,Tomasz Rola wrote: > > BTW, you would like a ride to the past? I would like a ride to the > future. Although from what I have seen so far, maybe not... Spider Robinson did a story about this, entitled ?The Time-Traveler.? The method, while as easily-implemented now as it was then, is not pleasant. Adam From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jul 9 17:43:51 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 18:43:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: KL10-A/KL10-B differences Message-ID: <20190709224351.4271818C0F5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > Erom: Eric Smith Hey, thanks for taking the time to provide all those details. As you no doubt saw, our emails crossed; I had managed to work out my own what the difference was. I'd been looking at this page: http://corestore.org/DEC2065.htm and saw the two backplanes, and assumed one was the EBox, and one the MBox - wrong! But eventually I got it straight... One some other points you covered: > The 1080 was intended to replace a KA10 or KI10 ... It only needed a > single DTE20 for the internal console PDP-11, and it didn't need an > RH20 because the disk would be attached via an RH10 Got it; makes sense. Could an -A be upgraded to a -B by swapping the I/O backplane? (Yes, the wiring to the I/O connectors would have to be changed too, and that might have been too difficult.) But could the APR handle it (perhaps with one or more board changes)? > The -PA and -PV designations .. are for the "arithmetic processor" > (APR), which is the main CPU portion of the KL10. Useful terminology to know. Do you happen to know what 'PV' stands for - or is it just a random letter code? >> my new theory is that it's the MBox ... that is the >> difference between the KL10-A and the KL10-B. > It's not just the MBOX; there are significant EBOX differences as > well. Various modules from the entire CPU are different, and the > backplane wiring is slightly different. It was possible to upgrade a > -PA to -PV by swapping modules and adding some wraps to the > backplane Do note I said "KL10-A and the KL10-B", not 'Model A and Model B'... I assume the APR's in the -A and -B were identical, it was just the I/O backplane, etc which were different. On the -PA to -PV upgrade, could the backplane really be done with some wraps? I ask because I saw in one manual, talking about a KL10-C to -PV upgrade, it calls for a backplane swap-out. I've also got some open questions on the later things like the KL10-R, -PW, and MCA25, which are not covered well in the documentation avilable in bitsavers; do you know about the later variations? Noel From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Jul 9 18:31:15 2019 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 17:31:15 -0600 Subject: KL10-A/KL10-B differences In-Reply-To: <20190709224351.4271818C0F5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190709224351.4271818C0F5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 4:44 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Could an -A be upgraded to a -B by swapping the I/O backplane? Electrically, yes, but physically it might not be easy. The portions of the chassis that support the backplanes are different, and the power supplies aren't there. When I refer to "I/O backplane", technically that's four separate backplanes. There's one DIA20/DMA20 backplane (not present in all models), one DTE20 backplane, and two separate backplanes that are combined for the RH20s (if present), one backplane for the A through D positions (upper 2/3 of each module slot), and one for E and F. The KL10-A (DECsystem-1080) does not have the RH20 backplanes, and has a variant of the DTE20 backplane that only supports a single DTE20. The KL10-A I/O cabinet has only 7 DC power supplies and associated cabling, vs 13 for the KL10-B, because it only has to power one DTE20 rather than four DTE20s and eight RH20s. Because of that, the KL10-A has only two H742 power supply frame/front-end assemblies rather than three. Useful terminology to know. Do you happen to know what 'PV' stands for - > or is it just a random letter code? > Essentially andom, as far as I know. KL10-PB through KL10-PD are assigned to some kind of subassemblies, but are not the same kind of assembly as the -PA and -PV. Probably a lot of -Px were assigned before they got to needing one that became -PV. On the -PA to -PV upgrade, could the backplane really be done with some > wraps? I ask because I saw in one manual, talking about a KL10-C to -PV > upgrade, it calls for a backplane swap-out. > I'm not entirely sure, so I easily could have been mistaken. I know -PV to -PW just needs some wraps. -PA to -PV may have required more significant backplane changes. Definitely they have different part numbers for the -PA and -PV backplane assemblies. I've also got some open questions on the later things like the KL10-R, AFAIK, -R is functionally and electrically equivalent to -E, but with physical changes needed for FCC compliance. > -PW, > and MCA25, > The MCA25 is the upgrade from -PV to -PW. It's preinstalled on the 1095 and 2065. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Jul 9 19:43:13 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 00:43:13 +0000 Subject: Email delivery protocols / methods. In-Reply-To: <3E8F9F02-26D6-4A8F-B7DE-93F77567B91E@comcast.net> References: <3E8F9F02-26D6-4A8F-B7DE-93F77567B91E@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 7/9/19 9:14 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Jul 8, 2019, at 11:27 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> >> ... >> On 7/6/19 12:57 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>> There's the MAIL-11 protocol (end to end, no MTAs) and the DECmail protocol which may be some OSI-like thing, I'm not sure anymore. >> >> I guess I don't know enough about MAIL-11 to understand why you say end-to-end / no MTA. > > No mail servers. You address mail to node::user and it contacts the mail protocol listener at that node, which drops the message into the mailbox of that user on that system. The "protocol listener" as you call it is the mail server. UUCP and SMTP worked the same way until the dawn of networked MUA's that let the mail remain on some system other than the user systems. bill From linimon at lonesome.com Tue Jul 9 22:08:03 2019 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 03:08:03 +0000 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 58, Issue 9 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20190710030802.GA28522@lonesome.com> > On Jul 9, 2019, at 10:00 AM,Tomasz Rola wrote: > BTW, you would like a ride to the past? I would like a ride to the > future. Although from what I have seen so far, maybe not... I absolutely believe in the future of 2505 as shown to us by Mike Judge. Please let me stay in this century. Thanks. mcl From w2hx at w2hx.com Tue Jul 9 16:11:39 2019 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:11:39 +0000 Subject: DEC MS630/M7609 Question Message-ID: <1562706699320.81412@w2hx.com> Hi there. I just acquired a board with the number M7609. It was advertised as an M630-CA which my research tells me is supposed to be 16MB. How do I tell on the board if this is 8MB or 16MB? There does not seem to be a suffix on the board that I can see. What to look for? 73 Eugene W2HX From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Jul 9 16:52:32 2019 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 14:52:32 -0700 Subject: DEC MS630/M7609 Question In-Reply-To: <1562706699320.81412@w2hx.com> References: <1562706699320.81412@w2hx.com> Message-ID: M7608 == 4MB M7609 == 8MB AFAIK the only DEC 16MB Q-bus board is the MS650 M7622 for the KA640, KA650, KA655, KA660 On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, 2:36 PM W2HX via cctech wrote: > Hi there. > > > I just acquired a board with the number M7609. It was advertised as an > M630-CA which my research tells me is supposed to be 16MB. How do I tell on > the board if this is 8MB or 16MB? There does not seem to be a suffix on the > board that I can see. > > > What to look for? > > 73 Eugene W2HX > > > From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Jul 9 17:08:35 2019 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 15:08:35 -0700 Subject: DEC MS630/M7609 Question In-Reply-To: <1562706699320.81412@w2hx.com> References: <1562706699320.81412@w2hx.com> Message-ID: <20190709150835.6630416f@asrock> On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:11:39 +0000 W2HX via cctech wrote: > Hi there. > > > I just acquired a board with the number M7609. It was advertised as an > M630-CA which my research tells me is supposed to be 16MB. How do I tell on > the board if this is 8MB or 16MB? There does not seem to be a suffix on the > board that I can see. > > > What to look for? M7609-AA MS630-CA Q 8-Mbyte parity 36-bit RAM for KA630 (MicroVAX II) Lyle -- 73 NM6Y Bickley Consulting West Inc. https://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From w2hx at w2hx.com Tue Jul 9 18:43:17 2019 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 23:43:17 +0000 Subject: DEC MS630/M7609 Question In-Reply-To: <20190709150835.6630416f@asrock> References: <1562706699320.81412@w2hx.com>,<20190709150835.6630416f@asrock> Message-ID: <1562715797826.11788@w2hx.com> Thanks, Lyle. I was reading this. I guess its wrong? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MicroVAX The MS630 memory expansion module was used for expanding memory capacity. Four variants of the MS630 existed: the 1 MB MS630-AA, 2 MB MS630-BA, 4 MB MS630-BB and the 16MB MS630-CA. Wouldn't be the first time wikipedia was wrong... Eugene ________________________________________ From: Lyle Bickley Sent: Tuesday, July 9, 2019 6:08 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Cc: W2HX Subject: Re: DEC MS630/M7609 Question On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:11:39 +0000 W2HX via cctech wrote: > Hi there. > > > I just acquired a board with the number M7609. It was advertised as an > M630-CA which my research tells me is supposed to be 16MB. How do I tell on > the board if this is 8MB or 16MB? There does not seem to be a suffix on the > board that I can see. > > > What to look for? M7609-AA MS630-CA Q 8-Mbyte parity 36-bit RAM for KA630 (MicroVAX II) Lyle -- 73 NM6Y Bickley Consulting West Inc. https://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Jul 9 18:57:29 2019 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 00:57:29 +0100 Subject: DEC MS630/M7609 Question In-Reply-To: <1562706699320.81412@w2hx.com> References: <1562706699320.81412@w2hx.com> Message-ID: <53930685-8f71-4bbd-6933-26429182097f@ntlworld.com> On 09/07/2019 22:11, W2HX via cctech wrote: > Hi there. > > > I just acquired a board with the number M7609. It was advertised as an M630-CA which my research tells me is supposed to be 16MB. How do I tell on the board if this is 8MB or 16MB? There does not seem to be a suffix on the board that I can see. > > > What to look for? > The simple answer is to install it in a uVAX2 system and see what it says :-) IIRC the M7608 comes in (at least) two variants, the MS630-BA, which is 2MB, and the MS630-BB, which is 4MB. I think that if you hold them side by side, it's obvious one has half the memory positions not filled. But the M7609 is an MS630-CA, which is always 8MB. There are various suffixes to the MS7609 board, but they (I think) just tell you the manufacturer of the RAM chips; the board is always 8MB. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Jul 10 09:32:35 2019 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 07:32:35 -0700 Subject: DEC MS630/M7609 Question In-Reply-To: <1562715797826.11788@w2hx.com> References: <1562706699320.81412@w2hx.com> <20190709150835.6630416f@asrock> <1562715797826.11788@w2hx.com> Message-ID: <20190710073235.3bf9ecd6@asrock> On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 23:43:17 +0000 W2HX wrote: > Thanks, Lyle. I was reading this. I guess its wrong? > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MicroVAX > > The MS630 memory expansion module was used for expanding memory capacity. > Four variants of the MS630 existed: the 1 MB MS630-AA, 2 MB MS630-BA, 4 MB > MS630-BB and the 16MB MS630-CA. The use of suffix's to identify the amount of memory was common with DEC - and the line I copied only referenced the "AA" version of the MS630. > Wouldn't be the first time wikipedia was wrong... Their probably right (in this case ;) Lyle ______________________________________ > From: Lyle Bickley > Sent: Tuesday, July 9, 2019 6:08 PM > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Cc: W2HX > Subject: Re: DEC MS630/M7609 Question > > On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:11:39 +0000 > W2HX via cctech wrote: > > > Hi there. > > > > > > I just acquired a board with the number M7609. It was advertised as an > > M630-CA which my research tells me is supposed to be 16MB. How do I tell on > > the board if this is 8MB or 16MB? There does not seem to be a suffix on the > > board that I can see. > > > > > > What to look for? > > M7609-AA MS630-CA Q 8-Mbyte parity 36-bit RAM for KA630 (MicroVAX II) > > Lyle > -- > 73 NM6Y > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > https://bickleywest.com > > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" -- 73 NM6Y Bickley Consulting West Inc. https://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Jul 10 12:08:22 2019 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 10:08:22 -0700 Subject: DEC MS630/M7609 Question In-Reply-To: <53930685-8f71-4bbd-6933-26429182097f@ntlworld.com> References: <1562706699320.81412@w2hx.com> <53930685-8f71-4bbd-6933-26429182097f@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > The simple answer is to install it in a uVAX2 system and see what it > says :-) Or look up the part number on one of the DRAM chips, count the number of DRAM chips, and then work out the total. If the M7609 uses 256Kbit DRAM chips (as all MS630 boards do), then 9 of them are 256KB with parity, 36 of them are 1MB, and the total of 288 256Kbit DRAM chips on the M7609 is a total of 8MB. From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Wed Jul 10 13:32:27 2019 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 13:32:27 -0500 (CDT) Subject: 5 1/4 diskettes available Message-ID: <640141855.18066.1562783547182@email.ionos.com> BG Micro, a surplus electronics dealer I buy from sometimes, has diskettes for sale. I don't know anything about them, but thought it may be of interest. I have no affiliation other than being a customer on their mailing list. Here is a link to the site: https://www.bgmicro.com/4-pack-of-5-25-floppy-diskettes-with-sleeves.aspx Will From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jul 10 14:25:57 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 12:25:57 -0700 Subject: 5 1/4 diskettes available In-Reply-To: <640141855.18066.1562783547182@email.ionos.com> References: <640141855.18066.1562783547182@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <92e804f7-c0af-6b5d-979a-6e2bf1ce2f26@bitsavers.org> On 7/10/19 11:32 AM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > https://www.bgmicro.com/4-pack-of-5-25-floppy-diskettes-with-sleeves.aspx They have hub rings, so they are probably 360K From guykd at optusnet.com.au Wed Jul 10 20:36:26 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 11:36:26 +1000 Subject: 5 1/4 diskettes available In-Reply-To: <92e804f7-c0af-6b5d-979a-6e2bf1ce2f26@bitsavers.org> References: <640141855.18066.1562783547182@email.ionos.com> <640141855.18066.1562783547182@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190711113626.00e30d30@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 12:25 PM 10/07/2019 -0700, you wrote: > > >On 7/10/19 11:32 AM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > >> https://www.bgmicro.com/4-pack-of-5-25-floppy-diskettes-with-sleeves.aspx > >They have hub rings, so they are probably 360K And the index hole. Thanks Will, this is quite fortuitous. I've just restored a HP 82901 dual 5.25" drive, which now runs, responds on the HP-IB bus, but I don't yet have facility to test R/W files. Next is to find some floppies to suit. I can't find any mention of what floppy type it uses, but the model specs are: Double sided, 35 tracks/side, 16 sectors, 256 byte sectors, MFM, optical index hole sensor. Total capacity: Listed as 270KB, but above gives 286,720 bytes. (280KB) So probably 360K disks would work? I'll have a few boxes of old 360K somewhere, and digging them out was on my list for today. So, nice timing. Ordered about 80. No hurry, since I still don't have a suitable HP-IB card. Looking for a couple of cards that are PCI and listed in http://www.hp9845.net/9845/projects/hpdir/ Pic of the drive here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/what-did-you-buy-today-post-your-latest-purchase!/msg2537844/#msg2537844 I also have a HP 9121 (working with my HP 1630G) and 9123 (both 3.5"), looking for a HP 9895A (8") The origin of this project is that I have 3.5" disks with ALL the disassembler utils for the HP 1630 logic analyzer, and want to archive them to PC (and put online, with other people waiting for this.) Guy From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 10 21:14:39 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 19:14:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 5 1/4 diskettes available In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190711113626.00e30d30@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <640141855.18066.1562783547182@email.ionos.com> <640141855.18066.1562783547182@email.ionos.com> <3.0.6.32.20190711113626.00e30d30@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: >> They have hub rings, so they are probably 360K On Thu, 11 Jul 2019, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > And the index hole. What about it? There were some machines that didn't use the index (such as Apple and Commodore), but they didn't care if there was one. There were some that used 10 or 16 index holes ("hard sectored"). In the unlikely event if these happen to be hard sectored, then others will gladly take them off your hands.. > Double sided, 35 tracks/side, That would be 48 tracks per inch. Some early drives, such as the SA400 (TRS80) and SA390 (Apple) were 35 track, but later drives extended that to 40 tracks. There were a few diskettes made with a shorter window, that could only manage 35, but otherwise 35 and 40 were the same. > 16 sectors, 256 byte sectors, MFM, optical index hole sensor. "Hard sectored" had a single optical index hole sensor, and 10 or 16 holes through the "cookie", with one hole through the "jacket" On "soft sectored", there would be a "track" composed of multiple sectors, with headers, gaps, "sync fields", etc, to set the start and end of each sector. We can discuss the full structure of "IBM"/"WD" track structure if you want. > Total capacity: Listed as 270KB, but above gives 286,720 bytes. (280KB) > So probably 360K disks would work? Absolutely. "360K" is the name given to double sided, 40 tracks, with 9 sectors of 512 bytes per sector. The choice of using 35 tracks, with 16 sectors, and 256 bytes per sector does not squeeze as much onto the disk, but the disk is the same. If that machine were to have been the most popular, then those diskettes would have been called "270K". Single and double sided usually used the same cookie, so the difference was solely whether the manufacturer promised/guaranteed that BOTH sides were good. Yes, there were rumors that the manufacturer would test all of the diskettes, adn sell the ones with 2 good sides as double sided, and on ones with a bad side would flip them over to get the good side into place to sell as single sided. The reality is that diskettes were never expensive enough to be worth the labor of trying to salvage bad disks. Except for some very early ones that had a short oval window, 35 track and 40 track were the same. In short, . . . the disks that YOU need are called "360K". (300 Oersted) Do NOT use the 1.2M "high density" disks. Those are 600 Oersted, and you need the "360K" 300 Oersted. If you try to use the "high density" disks, they will either FAIL, or will seem to work, but be unreadable VERY soon. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 10 21:59:53 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 19:59:53 -0700 Subject: 5 1/4 diskettes available In-Reply-To: References: <640141855.18066.1562783547182@email.ionos.com> <640141855.18066.1562783547182@email.ionos.com> <3.0.6.32.20190711113626.00e30d30@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <232a7a7c-d674-1d07-2969-f0e73ebb6d25@sydex.com> On 7/10/19 7:14 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> They have hub rings, so they are probably 360K To add a bit to Fred's excellent explanation, I can offer the following: While the hub ring is *generally* a good indicator of "2D" versus "HD" disks, I've seen exceptions. Early 2D floppies did not use the hub ring and I've got a few HD ones that do. The hub ring thing is a story in itself, which I've gone into in the past. So, basically, what matters is how the cookie is punched and what the characteristics of the brown schmoo that it's been coated with. High-density diskettes use a coating that contains smaller particles, is generally thinner and of higher magnetic coercivity ("stiffer") nature. The punching has to do with "hard" sectoring vs. "soft" sectoring. In the former, as Fred mentioned, there is an extra hole (in addition to the index hole) in the cookie for each sector. Most 5.25" media is soft-sectored. You can tell the difference by holding the jacket of a floppy with one hand and rotating the cookie by the hub with the other. If you only see one hole appearing through the jacket aperture with every revolution, the disk is soft-sectored. Beyond that, you can forget the "tracks". The same floppy can be used in 80 track (96 track per inch) as well as 77 track (100 tracks per inch) as well as 40 track (48 tracks per inch) drives. 5.25" diskettes are only a bit more complicated than 3.5" ones, where you need only worry about the coating characteristics. Having said that, there *are* oddball exceptions, but you're unlikely to run into them in real life. 8" diskettes on the other hand, employ only one coating type, but use the index hole to indicate single-sided, vs. double-sided and density, as well as hard- vs. soft-sectoring and "flippy" floppies. Again, there are the "oddball" cases, such as the Vydec floppies that put the sector holes on the outer edge of the cookie or Memorex 650 disks that have a "dogleg" in the jacket outline, but you likely won't run into those. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 10 22:27:18 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 20:27:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 5 1/4 diskettes available In-Reply-To: <232a7a7c-d674-1d07-2969-f0e73ebb6d25@sydex.com> References: <640141855.18066.1562783547182@email.ionos.com> <640141855.18066.1562783547182@email.ionos.com> <3.0.6.32.20190711113626.00e30d30@mail.optusnet.com.au> <232a7a7c-d674-1d07-2969-f0e73ebb6d25@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Jul 2019, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > While the hub ring is *generally* a good indicator of "2D" versus "HD" > disks, I've seen exceptions. Early 2D floppies did not use the hub ring > and I've got a few HD ones that do. The hub ring thing is a story in > itself, which I've gone into in the past. Since you could put on hub rings yourself (there were simple jigs from Inmac, or the deluxe version of the Berkeley Microcomputer Flip-Jig), If there is not a hub-ring, then it is an early "360K", or it is a "1.2M". If there is a hub-ring, then it is a an early "360K" with DIY hub ring, or a later "360K", or a "1.2M" with a DIY hub ring. OR, it is one of the exceptions. Nevertheless, going by the probabilities, if it has a hub ring, then it is PROBABLY "360K", and if it does not have a hub ring, then it is PROBABLY "1.2M". > So, basically, what matters is how the cookie is punched and what the > characteristics of the brown schmoo that it's been coated with. > High-density diskettes use a coating that contains smaller particles, is > generally thinner and of higher magnetic coercivity ("stiffer") nature. If you hold two side by side, you may see a color difference. > Beyond that, you can forget the "tracks". The same floppy can be used > in 80 track (96 track per inch) as well as 77 track (100 tracks per > inch) as well as 40 track (48 tracks per inch) drives. and in this example, as well as TRS80 and Apple][, the 40 track could be 35 tracks. > Having said that, there *are* oddball exceptions, but you're unlikely to > run into them in real life. Such as the "Twiggy" for the Apple Lisa. A high density disk with symmetrical (extra) access slot, to help make sure that EVERY disk had thumbprints on the cookie. If you feel a need to see one, check with Eric Smith. Chuck has seen a higher percentage of the oddball ones than anybody else. The 5.25" diskette or "Mini-diskette" is bar napkin size, because Dr. Wang said that 8" diskettes were too big. I have not been able to track down WHICH bar. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From guykd at optusnet.com.au Wed Jul 10 23:09:42 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 14:09:42 +1000 Subject: 5 1/4 diskettes available In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190711113626.00e30d30@mail.optusnet.com.au> <640141855.18066.1562783547182@email.ionos.com> <640141855.18066.1562783547182@email.ionos.com> <3.0.6.32.20190711113626.00e30d30@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190711140942.00e31e38@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 07:14 PM 10/07/2019 -0700, you wrote: >On Thu, 11 Jul 2019, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: >> And the index hole. > >What about it? Because it's so long since I used any 360K floppies, that I could not recall if some didn't have any hole. (But I did remember about the soft/hard sectoring; 1 vs n holes.) The 82901 specs I have don't mention if it's soft or hard sectored, but a few diskettes I received with the drive (which are definitely for it) are single hole. >There were some machines that didn't use the index (such as Apple and >Commodore), but they didn't care if there was one. Yes, I knew about Apple disks. http://everist.org/NobLog/20190106_hacked_appleII.htm >There were some that used 10 or 16 index holes ("hard sectored"). In >the unlikely event if these happen to be hard sectored, then others will >gladly take them off your hands.. :) Except I'm in Australia, so they could probably find them cheaper at home. bgmicro sold at a very reasonable price. For me, most of the cost will be postage. I send everything via shipito.com in CA (a reshipper) for consistency, tracking, and significantly lower international rates due to their bulk deals with carriers. Btw, I didn't deplete bgmicro's stock. They seem to mention on some items when they have limited stock, and they don't on the floppies. So likely have a LOT of them. [snip] >"360K" - 300 Oersted. vs 1.2M 600 Oersted. Can you believe that is the first time I have ever heard the actual figures for the coatings? I knew the 1.2M type had a higher coercivity, thus the incompatibility. Ditto with 3.5" 720K vs 1.44M. Thanks for the detailed review, and thanks to the others adding more. Saved. Guy From useddec at gmail.com Wed Jul 10 23:13:10 2019 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 23:13:10 -0500 Subject: DEC MS630/M7609 Question In-Reply-To: References: <1562706699320.81412@w2hx.com> <53930685-8f71-4bbd-6933-26429182097f@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: DEC used to use the first letter of the suffix for density, and the second letter for the chip manufacturer. On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 12:08 PM Glen Slick via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > The simple answer is to install it in a uVAX2 system and see what it > > says :-) > > Or look up the part number on one of the DRAM chips, count the number > of DRAM chips, and then work out the total. > > If the M7609 uses 256Kbit DRAM chips (as all MS630 boards do), then 9 > of them are 256KB with parity, 36 of them are 1MB, and the total of > 288 256Kbit DRAM chips on the M7609 is a total of 8MB. > From guykd at optusnet.com.au Wed Jul 10 23:29:53 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 14:29:53 +1000 Subject: 5 1/4 diskettes available In-Reply-To: References: <232a7a7c-d674-1d07-2969-f0e73ebb6d25@sydex.com> <640141855.18066.1562783547182@email.ionos.com> <640141855.18066.1562783547182@email.ionos.com> <3.0.6.32.20190711113626.00e30d30@mail.optusnet.com.au> <232a7a7c-d674-1d07-2969-f0e73ebb6d25@sydex.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190711142953.00e31e38@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 08:27 PM 10/07/2019 -0700, Grumpy Ol' Fred wrote: >The 5.25" diskette or "Mini-diskette" is bar napkin size, because Dr. Wang >said that 8" diskettes were too big. I have not been able to track down >WHICH bar. Perhaps the same bar where someone bet L Ron Hubbard that he couldn't create a religion? From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 11 00:40:04 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 22:40:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 5 1/4 diskettes available In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190711140942.00e31e38@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20190711113626.00e30d30@mail.optusnet.com.au> <640141855.18066.1562783547182@email.ionos.com> <640141855.18066.1562783547182@email.ionos.com> <3.0.6.32.20190711113626.00e30d30@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190711140942.00e31e38@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: >> "360K" - 300 Oersted. vs 1.2M 600 Oersted. On Thu, 11 Jul 2019, Guy Dunphy wrote: > Can you believe that is the first time I have ever heard the actual figures for the coatings? > I knew the 1.2M type had a higher coercivity, thus the incompatibility. Ditto with 3.5" 720K > vs 1.44M. Then add to the useless information: "720K" diskettes ("micro-diskettes") are 600 Oersted. "1.4M" diskettes are 720 - 750 Oersted. Notice that it is not as much difference between them as there is between the 5.25 variants. Therefore, using a "720K" diskette for "1.4M" or vice-versa, while less reliable, is something that you might "GET AWAY WITH". There were punches being peddled for doing so! You could take a good quality "720K" diskette and turn it into a mediocre/flaky "1.4M" BTW, if you multiply out the space on it (2 sides * 80 tracks per side * 18 sectors per track * 512 bytes per sector), 1474560, the only way that you can get 1.44 as the number of MBs is if you creatively redefine MB to be 1,024,000 (1000K, 1000* 1024, 2^10 * 10^3) A MebiByte is 1048576 or 2^20. A "1.4M" disk is 1.40625 MebiBytes. BTW, ANOTHER incompatability between "360K" and "1.2M" was 48 tracks per inch V 96 tracks per inch. ROUNDING THE NUMBERS (researching the correct numbers,and redoing the calculations ACCURATELY is "left as an exercise for the reader"), a "360K" has tracks that are about 1/2mm spacing, that are about 1/3mm width. 96tpi is about 1/4mm spacing, with width about 1/6mm. A 1.2M drive can read 360K by double-stepping. No problem. If it also adjusts the write current, then it can format a virgin 360K disk. The tracks will be sub-standard width, but will work. (1/6mm wide tracks with 1/2mm spacing) HOWEVER, if you take a track that has been written to on a 360K drive, the 1.2M drive, when it RE-writes that track will not erase the full width of the old 360K track. You will have a 1/6mm track down the middle of a 1/3mm track. The result is a "360K" track that still reads just fine on the 1.2M drive, but is not readable [reliably] on a 360K drive. Visualize a car tiretrack that has been followed by a motorcycle. Two motorcycles can leave a pair of tracks that resemble car tracks if they are the only tracks. But, if there is already a car's tracks, the motorcycles won't fully replace the car's tracks. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From useddec at gmail.com Thu Jul 11 02:29:12 2019 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 02:29:12 -0500 Subject: M7819 DZ11 boards and others for parts Message-ID: I have a ton of DEC boards that I will probably never use. I sell off what I can, when I can, but have large quantities of some and no need for them. I have to do something and I like recycling cans and plastic, but not computer parts. If anyone can use these or any other DEC board, feel free to contact me off list. I would prefer to sell in qty, but will consider all requests. If you are parting them out and don't want them, I will reduce the price and keep the fingers. Thanks, Paul From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Jul 11 09:09:19 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 14:09:19 +0000 Subject: 5 1/4 diskettes available In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190711142953.00e31e38@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <232a7a7c-d674-1d07-2969-f0e73ebb6d25@sydex.com> <640141855.18066.1562783547182@email.ionos.com> <640141855.18066.1562783547182@email.ionos.com> <3.0.6.32.20190711113626.00e30d30@mail.optusnet.com.au> <232a7a7c-d674-1d07-2969-f0e73ebb6d25@sydex.com> <3.0.6.32.20190711142953.00e31e38@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On 7/11/19 12:29 AM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > At 08:27 PM 10/07/2019 -0700, Grumpy Ol' Fred wrote: >> The 5.25" diskette or "Mini-diskette" is bar napkin size, because Dr. Wang >> said that 8" diskettes were too big. I have not been able to track down >> WHICH bar. > > Perhaps the same bar where someone bet L Ron Hubbard that he couldn't create a religion? > The only successful Sci Fi he ever created. bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Jul 11 09:10:10 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 14:10:10 +0000 Subject: 5 1/4 diskettes available In-Reply-To: <640141855.18066.1562783547182@email.ionos.com> References: <640141855.18066.1562783547182@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: On 7/10/19 2:32 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > BG Micro, a surplus electronics dealer I buy from sometimes, has diskettes for sale. I don't know anything about them, but thought it may be of interest. I have no affiliation other than being a customer on their mailing list. > Here is a link to the site: > https://www.bgmicro.com/4-pack-of-5-25-floppy-diskettes-with-sleeves.aspx > > Will > That's not the same BG Micro we bought stuff from in the early 80's, is it? bill From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Thu Jul 11 10:27:36 2019 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 10:27:36 -0500 (CDT) Subject: 5 1/4 diskettes available In-Reply-To: References: <640141855.18066.1562783547182@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <1363706944.57876.1562858856171@email.ionos.com> > On July 11, 2019 at 9:10 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > > On 7/10/19 2:32 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > BG Micro, a surplus electronics dealer I buy from sometimes, has diskettes for sale. I don't know anything about them, but thought it may be of interest. I have no affiliation other than being a customer on their mailing list. > > Here is a link to the site: > > https://www.bgmicro.com/4-pack-of-5-25-floppy-diskettes-with-sleeves.aspx > > > > Will > > That's not the same BG Micro we bought stuff from in the > early 80's, is it? > > bill The one with the yellow photocopied catalog? That's the same one. The owner/founder passed away a year or two ago and I believe his daughter is running it now. Will "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." --? Antoine de Saint-Exupery "The names of global variables should start with? ? // "? --?https://isocpp.org From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jul 11 13:31:41 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 14:31:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: KL10-A/KL10-B differences Message-ID: <20190711183141.F26E018C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Eric Smith > two separate backplanes that are combined for the RH20s (if > present), one backplane for the A through D positions (upper 2/3 of > each module slot), and one for E and F. How odd. DEC was quite happy to do hex backplanes elsewhere, and it looks from the photo (EK-108OU-PD-002, pg. 3-8) like the MASSBUS connector are wired to both backplanes, so they had to stay together. >> On the -PA to -PV upgrade, could the backplane really be done with >> some wraps? I ask because I saw in one manual, talking about a >> KL10-C to -PV upgrade, it calls for a backplane swap-out. EK-0KL20-IN-001 ("KL10-Based DECSystem-20 Installation Manual"), in Section 10.2 "KL10-PV Upgrade Procedure for KL10-C", if anyone wants to look. > I'm not entirely sure, so I easily could have been mistaken. I know > -PV to -PW just needs some wraps. -PA to -PV may have required more > significant backplane changes. Definitely they have different part > numbers for the -PA and -PV backplane assemblies. Yeah, DEC was quite happy to have the FS guys do wirewrap on install (e.g. for the NIA20). So my guess is that if the default upgrade for at least one -PA to -PV (above) was to replace the backplane, that would have been the standard way, because of some issue. Whether it was just too many wires to do manually, or if there were also trace issues, it would be interesting to know. Oh, it's also possible that since the -PA to -PV involved a faster clock, I wonder if some backplane lines turned into twisted pair, or coax? Noel From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Jul 11 15:47:06 2019 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 15:47:06 -0500 Subject: 5 1/4 diskettes available In-Reply-To: <92e804f7-c0af-6b5d-979a-6e2bf1ce2f26@bitsavers.org> References: <640141855.18066.1562783547182@email.ionos.com> <92e804f7-c0af-6b5d-979a-6e2bf1ce2f26@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > On 7/10/19 11:32 AM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > > https://www.bgmicro.com/4-pack-of-5-25-floppy-diskettes-with-sleeves.aspx > > They have hub rings, so they are probably 360K Weren't these 89 cents when this was first posted? Well they're $1.89 now. You're altering the market! From guykd at optusnet.com.au Thu Jul 11 18:21:15 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 09:21:15 +1000 Subject: 5 1/4 diskettes available In-Reply-To: References: <92e804f7-c0af-6b5d-979a-6e2bf1ce2f26@bitsavers.org> <640141855.18066.1562783547182@email.ionos.com> <92e804f7-c0af-6b5d-979a-6e2bf1ce2f26@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190712092115.01221688@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 03:47 PM 11/07/2019 -0500, you wrote: >> On 7/10/19 11:32 AM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: >> >> > https://www.bgmicro.com/4-pack-of-5-25-floppy-diskettes-with-sleeves.aspx >> >> They have hub rings, so they are probably 360K > >Weren't these 89 cents when this was first posted? Well they're $1.89 now. >You're altering the market! So they are! Oops. Sorry! Maybe they had a rush of orders, and it's not entirely my fault? Or maybe the 89c price was a typo, and my order alerted them? They confirmed my order. Fingers crossed they actually ship them, and it doesn't turn into an argument about honoring transactions. Though probably, a higher postage cost would be fair. 88 floppies and covers will weigh a bit. (Should have bought 100.) 4 Pack of 5.25" Floppy Diskettes with Sleeves COM1147 22 $0.89 $19.58 Subtotal: $19.58 Shipping & Handling: $6.95 Tax: $0.00 Order Total: $26.53 That's an easily altered market. I am a lovely butterfly, fear my flapping wings! Guy From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Jul 11 19:20:24 2019 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 20:20:24 -0400 Subject: 5 1/4 diskettes available In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190712092115.01221688@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <92e804f7-c0af-6b5d-979a-6e2bf1ce2f26@bitsavers.org> <640141855.18066.1562783547182@email.ionos.com> <92e804f7-c0af-6b5d-979a-6e2bf1ce2f26@bitsavers.org> <3.0.6.32.20190712092115.01221688@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <9587435412174835B15E65B0FC405769@teoPC> At least shipping is cheap. Never seen a 4 pack before. I still have tons of green 5.25" DD disks I picked up bulk when I got into 8 bit computers in the early 2000's. Duplicators were dumping them so cheap back then, wish I would have snagged more of the 3.5" DD back then. TZ -----Original Message----- From: Guy Dunphy via cctalk Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2019 7:21 PM To: Jason T ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: 5 1/4 diskettes available At 03:47 PM 11/07/2019 -0500, you wrote: >> On 7/10/19 11:32 AM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: >> >> > https://www.bgmicro.com/4-pack-of-5-25-floppy-diskettes-with-sleeves.aspx >> >> They have hub rings, so they are probably 360K > >Weren't these 89 cents when this was first posted? Well they're $1.89 now. >You're altering the market! So they are! Oops. Sorry! Maybe they had a rush of orders, and it's not entirely my fault? Or maybe the 89c price was a typo, and my order alerted them? They confirmed my order. Fingers crossed they actually ship them, and it doesn't turn into an argument about honoring transactions. Though probably, a higher postage cost would be fair. 88 floppies and covers will weigh a bit. (Should have bought 100.) 4 Pack of 5.25" Floppy Diskettes with Sleeves COM1147 22 $0.89 $19.58 Subtotal: $19.58 Shipping & Handling: $6.95 Tax: $0.00 Order Total: $26.53 That's an easily altered market. I am a lovely butterfly, fear my flapping wings! Guy --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From sales at elecplus.com Fri Jul 12 06:25:29 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 06:25:29 -0500 Subject: 16-bit ISA tape controllers Message-ID: <019401d538a4$82fd5490$88f7fdb0$@com> These do not come available very often. Not affiliated with seller, etc. WTS EVEREX SYSTEMS PCT04, REF, qty 5, CALL, TAPE CONTROLLER 16 BIT ISA Sajjad Mukhi Sales/purchasing FML Computers Inc Phone: 407-637-2922 Toll: 407-637-2922 Fax: 407-362-7826 Cell: 407-718-8778 Mukhi at fml-computers.com Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From boris at summitclinic.com Fri Jul 12 02:26:31 2019 From: boris at summitclinic.com (Boris Gimbarzevsky) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 23:26:31 -0800 Subject: RALGOL - A PDP8 ALGOL 60 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20190712072648.858D62734D@mx1.ezwind.net> Thanks for that link Charles and also thanks to Mark Kahrs for obituary on Roger Abbott. I started out on PDP-8 in 1968 which was the first time I had hands on access to a computer at UofCalgary. Would have loved to have had access to one when I did my MSc in neurophysiology in 1975 but obviously Oxford in 1972 had much better funding than Uof0 (University of Ottawa). Roger Abbott had a PDP-8 to acquire data from his insect muscle preparations and noticed that 1972 Journal of Physiology papers no longer behind a paywall when was looking what type of research he was doing. Uof0 was still using rotating smoked drum cylinders to record muscle twitches in some labs and the lab I was in had a high speed oscilloscope camera which one could use to shoot long strips of neuron spike activigy from a mouse cerebellar culture. A technician was available to measure the time intervals between spikes and that's how I was supposed to do my project to look for connections between simultaneously recorded cells in the cultures. My request for a computer was denied and I was given $200 to build an electronic device to time the spikes and send them to the Uof0 360 mainframe where my FORTRAN code generated cross-correlograms and other neat graphs on a line printer http://drgimbarzevsky.com/Computers/UofOTerminal/TerminalCircuitBoards1.html Despite comments that I seemed to be working on a graduate degree in electrical engineering rather than neurophysiology, what I learned doing large scale TTL state-machine devices was invaluable when I moved to Vancouver and worked at UBC Pharmacology where lab computers were the norm and did my last bit of PDP-8 programming on a PDP-12 to speed up gathering data from a mouse diaphragm preparation which was easily done by rewriting the whole thing in PDP-8 and Link-8 assembler. The researcher whose machine it was used FOCAL for everything which made for horrendously slow data analysis. That done, I finally got to play on what I still view as one of the best computers ever made, the PDP-11. Fortunately at UBC there were a lot of researchers who mixed writing code and building their own hardware with doing their electrophysiologic experiments. That was a neat time when dicussions we'd have were whether a particular bit of data acquisition was to be done with optimized assembler code vs building our own dedicated board which would plug into Unibus on 11/34. I liked the latter approach but it was easier to debug PDP-11 ASM than chasing down bugs on a custom interface board having to spend time writing custom diagnostics to see if things were really working as designed. Have an old Algol book around from early 1970's and remember reading it then but liked FORTRAN more but most of my code was FORTRAN calling PDP-11 ASM functions on a PDP-11. All my PDP-8 programs from early 1970's are on paper tape and have never been transferred to other media. Algol 60 looks interesting enough to use given compact code and neat architecture that will try running it on PDP-8 simulator someday. Problem with simulators is that almost all of PDP-8 and PDP-11 code I wrote was to interface to A/D's and D/A's or parallel ports to run experiments. Once got a C64, wrote graphing code in C64 Basic and photographed my TV which was way faster than writing code in PDP-11 ASM to display graphs and data on oscilloscope screen from D/A's. Got into VB once PC's were cheaper than Macs and notice there's a lot of VB5 and VB6 code on Roger Abbott's final code. VB6 is something I still use and once I get my VB6 code running under Wine, windoze will be a distant memory. Was neat to see where other physiologists had been in early 1970's where it seemed I spend more time building the tools I needed to get the data I wanted than to do the experiments. Boris Gimbarzevsky >I played around with this algol 60 compiler for the PDP8 and succeeded in >getting it to run. I have not found any other notes, so I thought that I >would give a leg up to the next one that wants to work on it. > >-chuck > >-------- > >This ALGOL 60 implementation for the PDP8 was written by Roger H. Abbott >while he was at Oxford. > >The bits are here: >http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp8/papertapeImages/russ.ucs.indiana.edu/Langs/Algol/ > >A copy of the manual here: >https://archive.org/details/hack42_ROG_ALGOL_Compiler > >A paper here: >http://pdp8.de/download/RogAlgol.pdf > >Mr. Abbotts business is here: >http://www.angelfire.com/biz/rhaminisys/index.html > >The website or the host is a bit sketchy. The business is probably defunct. >I found a link that said Mr. Abbott died in the early 2000. > >The system is two parts: the compiler and the runtime. > >This is all assuming the use of OS/8. > >To create the SV file for the compiler: >.R ABSLDR >*INTRUN.BN,ALGCOM.BN,COMOS8.BN$ >.SAVE SYS:ALGCOM.SV >.R ALGCOM.SV > >To create the SV file for the runtime system/loader: >.R ABSLDR >*FPP.BN,ALGRUN.BN,RUNOS8.BN >.SAVE SYS:RALGOL.SV >.R RALGOL.SV > >There are other options for the FPP.BN for other hardware possibilities. >FPEAE8.BN for the classic pdp8 EAE and FPPEAE.BN for the PDP8/e EAE. This >needs some testings. > >Running an ALGOL program: > >.TYPE FLOAT.AL >'BEGIN' > 'REAL' A,B; > TEXT(1,"HELLO WORLD!"); > SKIP(1); > A := 3.141592; > B := COS(A); > TEXT(1,"A = "); > RWRITE(1,A); > SKIP(1); > TEXT(1,"B = COS(A) = "); > RWRITE(1,B); >'END' >$$$$$ > >.R ALGCOM > >ROGALGOL MK40 >OUT >SIZE 39 > >.R RALGOL > >ROGALGOLOADER >INPUT FILENAME ?*FLOAT.AC > >ENDS 0251 >^^PHELLO WORLD! >A = +0.314159E+001 >B = COS(A) = -0.999999E+000 >^^PHELLO WORLD! >A = +0.314159E+001 >B = COS(A) = -0.999999E+000 >^^C >. > >The source AL file must end with a few $$$$ or an odd fault code will >result. The fault codes are embedded in the source files as addresses. > >The compiler output file has the AC suffix. > >After the loader runs it will pause with a ^ prompt and the user will have >to enter a ^P to proceed or ^C to quit. > >The manual is the best description for the user. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 12 10:41:04 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 08:41:04 -0700 Subject: 16-bit ISA tape controllers In-Reply-To: <019401d538a4$82fd5490$88f7fdb0$@com> References: <019401d538a4$82fd5490$88f7fdb0$@com> Message-ID: On 7/12/19 4:25 AM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > These do not come available very often. Not affiliated with seller, etc. > > > > WTS EVEREX SYSTEMS PCT04, REF, qty 5, CALL, TAPE CONTROLLER 16 BIT ISA > > > Sajjad Mukhi > Sales/purchasing > FML Computers Inc > Phone: 407-637-2922 Toll: 407-637-2922 > Fax: 407-362-7826 Cell: 407-718-8778 > Mukhi at fml-computers.com I believe that these are the controller for the Everex "Streaming Tape" QIC-36 interface drive: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/everex/evtape/MAN-00136-42_Excel_Installation_V4.2_Aug87.pdf --Chuck From guykd at optusnet.com.au Fri Jul 12 18:12:16 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 09:12:16 +1000 Subject: 5 1/4 diskettes available Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190713091216.00dda540@mail.optusnet.com.au> >They confirmed my order. Fingers crossed they actually ship them, and it doesn't >turn into an argument about honoring transactions. Though probably, a higher postage >cost would be fair. 88 floppies and covers will weigh a bit. (Should have bought 100.) >4 Pack of 5.25" Floppy Diskettes with Sleeves >COM1147 22 $0.89 $19.58 >Subtotal: $19.58 >Shipping & Handling: $6.95 >Tax: $0.00 >Order Total: $26.53 They DID ship them. Just received notice of shipment. You know, the postage from Garland, Texas to LA, CA for a box of 88 floppies would have been more than $6.95. How much more, I don't know. Could they have made a loss on that transaction, hence the price bump? > That's not the same BG Micro we bought stuff from in the > early 80's, is it? > bill >The one with the yellow photocopied catalog? That's the same one. >The owner/founder passed away a year or two ago and I believe his daughter is running it now. >Will Can anyone estimate the likely US postage for that package? Please let me know. If BG Micro are badly out on that transaction, I'll contact them and make it up to them. Would not if it was some big corp, but BG Micro are clearly honest. Such a rarity. Funny, I was thinking of Diogenes and his lantern just the other day. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diogenes Guy From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Jul 12 20:02:35 2019 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 19:02:35 -0600 Subject: KL10-A/KL10-B differences In-Reply-To: <20190711183141.F26E018C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190711183141.F26E018C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 12:31 Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > it's also possible that > since the -PA to -PV involved a faster clock, I wonder if some backplane > lines turned into twisted pair, or coax? PA used 25 MHz (40 ns cycle). PV and PW used 33 MHz (33.3 ns cycle). I don't think PA to PV required any signals that were previously single-ended to change to twisted pair, or from twisted pair to coax. From web at loomcom.com Fri Jul 12 20:58:56 2019 From: web at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 18:58:56 -0700 Subject: 5 1/4 diskettes available In-Reply-To: <9587435412174835B15E65B0FC405769@teoPC> References: <92e804f7-c0af-6b5d-979a-6e2bf1ce2f26@bitsavers.org> <640141855.18066.1562783547182@email.ionos.com> <3.0.6.32.20190712092115.01221688@mail.optusnet.com.au> <9587435412174835B15E65B0FC405769@teoPC> Message-ID: <875zo6elun.fsf@loomcom.com> TeoZ via cctalk writes: > At least shipping is cheap. > > Never seen a 4 pack before. I still have tons of green 5.25" DD disks > I picked up bulk when I got into 8 bit computers in the early > 2000's. Duplicators were dumping them so cheap back then, wish I would > have snagged more of the 3.5" DD back then. About two years ago, a seller on eBay was dumping a large quantity of DSQD (certified 96tpi double density) diskettes. I needed these for my 3B2, so I bought up the entire stock. I still wish I could find more! [As a side note: Good quality DSDD should work fine, but in my personal experience, anything other than top-top-top quality DSDD has trouble] -Seth -- Seth Morabito Poulsbo, WA, USA web at loomcom.com From jeffreybirkin at hotmail.com Fri Jul 12 23:27:51 2019 From: jeffreybirkin at hotmail.com (Jeffrey Birkin) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 04:27:51 +0000 Subject: Posting of set of boards from a data General nova 3 triple option Message-ID: I have a set of boards from a data General nova 3 triple option Location: Vancouver Island Canada If interested please email Jeffreybirkin at hotmail.com Sent from my iPhone From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jul 12 23:53:58 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 00:53:58 -0400 Subject: Anyone have any docs on Termiflex handheld terminals? Message-ID: Hi, All, I recently picked up an item I've been looking for for quite some time, a handheld configuration "terminal" for a LeCroy 1440 HV chassis, called a "Model 1447 Local Diagnostic Controller". It's superficially like the DEC hand-held used in the field for internal RA81 diagnostics but it's not the same model. The 1447 is described in the 1440 docs, so I have the pinout (DA-15 with TxD and RxD on pins 2 and 3, plus ground and +5V on certain pins). A sticker on my 1447 indicates it's a "Termiflex" product but all I can find online are pictures and docs from the later LCD display units. This one has a 1x16 LED alpha display. Does anyone have any docs on older LED Termiflex units? Again, I have the pinout but I'm curious about the innards. Unfortunately, the 4 case latches are difficult to unlock without some magic shim tool or I'd just open mine and reverse-engineer the PCB (there are four 2mm x 8mm slots with some sort of metal barbs at the bottom that seem to need a specific tool to open - a small blade has been unhelpful so far). Pinouts (cf J3) https://prep.fnal.gov/catalog/hardware_info/lecroy/high_voltage/images/fig216.gif >From the LANL docs for the 1440 I've found so far, it's unclear at the moment if TxD and RxD are +/-12V or +5V and GND but that's easy to check on the TxD line before I put anything on the RxD line. Thanks for any info. -ethan From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Jul 13 10:26:34 2019 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 17:26:34 +0200 Subject: What connector is this? Message-ID: I am looking for the mating male connector. Anyone that has an idea what connector this is? There is nothing indicated on the connector itself about what the manufacturer it is. https://i.imgur.com/YzAfB2g.png /Mattis From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Jul 13 11:57:18 2019 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 09:57:18 -0700 Subject: Posting of set of boards from a data General nova 3 triple option In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2CE9DBA9-F059-46FF-9238-229CB5697D0C@nf6x.net> > On Jul 12, 2019, at 9:27 PM, Jeffrey Birkin via cctalk wrote: > > I have a set of boards from a data General nova 3 triple option > Location: Vancouver Island Canada > If interested please email Jeffreybirkin at hotmail.com I have a Nova 3 system, but I am not familiar with what the triple option is. Is it something I should lust after? -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Jul 13 15:30:08 2019 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 16:30:08 -0400 Subject: visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum - Elliot 803 Message-ID: Hi all - Gatwick Airport was closed for many hours. Without getting into all of the details it became impossible to make it to the museum during my layover. As it was everything had to be perfect. I went to London for a few hours instead. My goal was to see the Elliot 803 at the computer museum in Bletchley so I could learn more about how it worked, I found some code written for the 802, which would work on the 803, and I thought it might be worth the experience to see or maybe even operate the actual machine. There is no simH that I know of for the 802/803 but I have read some attempts at it. I realize I could not see the whole museum and would be rushed, but given I was only in London for an extended 17-hour layover, why not try? Peter Onion Elliott 803 Team leader was going to meet me. Thanks everyone for their feedback. I am going to try to visit next spring for a longer period so I can take my time. I also would like by then to try the same technique I used for the LGP-30 to get that running on simH, applied to the Elliot 803. I'd have to get my head back into that project. Complicated. Bill From lyndon at orthanc.ca Sat Jul 13 15:48:39 2019 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 13:48:39 -0700 Subject: Margaret Hamilton Guardian interview. Message-ID: <40c8e8af4c4e867c@orthanc.ca> Another of the un-acknowledged people in the upcoming July 29 'celebrations'. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/jul/13/margaret-hamilton-computer-scientist-interview-software-apollo-missions-1969-moon-landing-nasa-women --lyndon From guykd at optusnet.com.au Sat Jul 13 18:10:58 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 09:10:58 +1000 Subject: Margaret Hamilton Guardian interview. In-Reply-To: <40c8e8af4c4e867c@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190714091058.012216a0@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 01:48 PM 13/07/2019 -0700, you wrote: >Another of the un-acknowledged people in the upcoming July 29 >'celebrations'. > >https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/jul/13/margaret-hamilton-computer-scientist-interview-software-apollo-missions-1969-moon-landing-nasa-women > >--lyndon Highly related: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhVKYDVZxWQ Apollo AGC Part 19: Restoration complete! Published on Jul 12, 2019 IWe finally are able to make the original erasable core memory work, under the watchful eye of guests more famous than us. This completes the restoration of the AGC. In the process we dump the historical content that was still present in the memory module and find all kinds of interesting things. Also, at 17:26 is that a HP 2116A in the background? Tall gray rackmount unit. First minicomputer HP made. Guy From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jul 13 20:43:28 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 18:43:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 5 1/4 diskettes available In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190713091216.00dda540@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20190713091216.00dda540@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Jul 2019, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: >> They confirmed my order. Fingers crossed they actually ship them, and it doesn't >> turn into an argument about honoring transactions. Though probably, a higher postage >> cost would be fair. 88 floppies and covers will weigh a bit. (Should have bought 100.) > >> 4 Pack of 5.25" Floppy Diskettes with Sleeves >> COM1147 22 $0.89 $19.58 >> Subtotal: $19.58 >> Shipping & Handling: $6.95 >> Tax: $0.00 >> Order Total: $26.53 > > > They DID ship them. Just received notice of shipment. > > You know, the postage from Garland, Texas to LA, CA for a box of 88 floppies would > have been more than $6.95. How much more, I don't know. > Could they have made a loss on that transaction, hence the price bump? > >> That's not the same BG Micro we bought stuff from in the >> early 80's, is it? >> bill > >> The one with the yellow photocopied catalog? That's the same one. >> The owner/founder passed away a year or two ago and I believe his daughter is running it now. >> Will > > Can anyone estimate the likely US postage for that package? Please let me know. > If BG Micro are badly out on that transaction, I'll contact them and make it up to them. > Would not if it was some big corp, but BG Micro are clearly honest. Such a rarity. > > Funny, I was thinking of Diogenes and his lantern just the other day. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diogenes Without the exact zipcodes and weight, can't get exact postage. However, it is likely to be "zone 6", for which parcel post for 1 pound is $7.62. There are ways of getting some discounts, such as online ordering of postage, instead of the counter at the post office. A Priority Mail small flat rate box would be $7.50 A Priority Mail flat rate envelope is $6.95, but rather tight. So, the postage might be a LITTLE low, but not by much. I don't know how much the online discount is. I don't know how much UPS currently charges. I don't know how much Fedex currently charges. Plato defined "MAN" as "featherless biped". So, Diogenes handed him a plucked chicken. Plato refined his definition to include broad toenails. Plato said that Diogenes was "A Socrates gone mad". Nothing that Diogenes wrote has survived, so we rely on third party accounts, mostly by those who were adherents of others. Alexander The Great asked Diogenes what he could do for him. "Move over; you're blocking my sun." From guykd at optusnet.com.au Sat Jul 13 22:30:58 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 13:30:58 +1000 Subject: 5 1/4 diskettes available In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190713091216.00dda540@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190713091216.00dda540@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190714133058.012227f8@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 06:43 PM 13/07/2019 -0700, you wrote: >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diogenes >Without the exact zipcodes and weight, can't get exact postage. >However, it is likely to be "zone 6", for which parcel post for 1 pound is >$7.62. There are ways of getting some discounts, such as online ordering >of postage, instead of the counter at the post office. >A Priority Mail small flat rate box would be $7.50 >A Priority Mail flat rate envelope is $6.95, but rather tight. > >So, the postage might be a LITTLE low, but not by much. Oh good, so it wasn't a loss for them. Thanks. Btw I emailed them and also asked what kind of quantity of those floppies they have, and would they do bulk deals at the original price. 'For a friend'. Still doing my best to keep driving the price up. :) >Plato defined "MAN" as "featherless biped". >So, Diogenes handed him a plucked chicken. >Plato refined his definition to include broad toenails. > >Plato said that Diogenes was "A Socrates gone mad". Plato was a humorless twat. Diogenes sounds like a really cool dude. Today he would have been a hero-level philosophical Troll. Perhaps a great leader for Gen-Z. Certainly Twitter and Facebook would have banned him, and Amazon would be working on hunter-killer drones just for Diogenes. >Nothing that Diogenes wrote has survived, so we rely on third party >accounts, mostly by those who were adherents of others. > >Alexander The Great asked Diogenes what he could do for him. >"Move over; you're blocking my sun." One of my favorites. I'd like to get a print of that Waterhouse painting, Diogenes, the pot, and lamp. Guy From rlloken at telus.net Sat Jul 13 22:55:40 2019 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 21:55:40 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Margaret Hamilton Guardian interview. In-Reply-To: <40c8e8af4c4e867c@orthanc.ca> References: <40c8e8af4c4e867c@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: Lyndon, I have never heard of her before and had no idea. I am frequently amazed when I discover just how much you know... Or how much spare time to surf the web for obsure stuff... Either way you earn my respect. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear, Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sun Jul 14 00:24:54 2019 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 22:24:54 -0700 Subject: Margaret Hamilton Guardian interview. In-Reply-To: References: <40c8e8af4c4e867c@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: <88AB05D5-AC07-45FD-8F79-0BE50CA5A072@shaw.ca> On 2019-Jul-13, at 1:48 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg via cctalk wrote: > Another of the un-acknowledged people in the upcoming July 29 > 'celebrations'. > > https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/jul/13/margaret-hamilton-computer-scientist-interview-software-apollo-missions-1969-moon-landing-nasa-women On 2019-Jul-13, at 8:55 PM, Richard Loken via cctalk wrote: > Lyndon, I have never heard of her before and had no idea. I am frequently > amazed when I discover just how much you know... Or how much spare time > to surf the web for obsure stuff... Either way you earn my respect. Margaret Hamilton is well known in regards to the AGC, and as the article mentions she received a Presidential Medal of Freedom, amongst other awards including from NASA. She is not unknown, nor unacknowledged. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jul 13 12:06:12 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 13:06:12 -0400 Subject: Seeking documentation for Tallgrass Technologies "Shortcut" Message-ID: Hi, All, Another recent find, a Tallgrass Technologies "Shortcut", 80286 upgrade for 8-bit PCs. I've found several reviews online but no docs and no software (to enable the onboard 16K cache). One thing that concerns me is that on this unit, the 24-pin socket at U18 is empty. It might be nothing. This one does not have the memory daughtercard on J1, so perhaps they are related. If anyone has docs or has one and could tell me if their U18 is empty (and if not, what goes there), that would be great. Thanks! -ethan From jesse at cypress-tech.co Sat Jul 13 23:38:03 2019 From: jesse at cypress-tech.co (Jesse Dougherty) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 00:38:03 -0400 Subject: Box of HP 1000 series MUX cards - 12040 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190709113524.0121d1b8@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20190709113524.0121d1b8@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: Whats your deal dude? I'm not trolling anyone. I have hundreds of these boards here.. I don't need 170 HP 1000 Series MUX cards. They just don't sell that often for me to hold on to. What else do you want me to do with them. Its crazy that you are insanely upset that I cross posted on here. If you want working 12040, I have 87 more after those. We strip down system, build custom 1k boxes, sell parts, and buy parts.. kind of what we do. Not really sure how to respond to that but geez, get a beer. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Jul 14 02:06:58 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 08:06:58 +0100 Subject: visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum - Elliot 803 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <173001d53a12$bafbbca0$30f335e0$@gmail.com> Bill, Ask Peter about emulators. Pretty sure some one at the museum did an 803 emulator, (not in SIMH) but its been a while since I saw the machine running. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Bill Degnan via > cctalk > Sent: 13 July 2019 21:30 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum - Elliot 803 > > Hi all - Gatwick Airport was closed for many hours. Without getting into all of > the details it became impossible to make it to the museum during my > layover. As it was everything had to be perfect. I went to London for a few > hours instead. > > My goal was to see the Elliot 803 at the computer museum in Bletchley so I > could learn more about how it worked, I found some code written for the > 802, which would work on the 803, and I thought it might be worth the > experience to see or maybe even operate the actual machine. There is no > simH that I know of for the 802/803 but I have read some attempts at it. I > realize I could not see the whole museum and would be rushed, but given I > was only in London for an extended 17-hour layover, why not try? Peter > Onion Elliott 803 Team leader was going to meet me. > > Thanks everyone for their feedback. I am going to try to visit next spring for > a longer period so I can take my time. I also would like by then to try the > same technique I used for the LGP-30 to get that running on simH, applied to > the Elliot 803. I'd have to get my head back into that project. Complicated. > > Bill From gerardcjat at free.fr Sun Jul 14 03:49:59 2019 From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 10:49:59 +0200 Subject: Box of HP 1000 series MUX cards - 12040 Message-ID: The right question is : Does theses worth $ 600 as gold scrap ?? Certainly NOT, so ..... This is "If you want that scrap, you pay a premium ". A premium for what ? ( or for who ) ?? From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jul 14 11:49:26 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 09:49:26 -0700 Subject: Margaret Hamilton Guardian interview. In-Reply-To: <88AB05D5-AC07-45FD-8F79-0BE50CA5A072@shaw.ca> References: <40c8e8af4c4e867c@orthanc.ca> <88AB05D5-AC07-45FD-8F79-0BE50CA5A072@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <36ccaa21-067a-ebaf-a648-78c29e61359a@bitsavers.org> On 7/13/19 10:24 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > She is not unknown, nor unacknowledged. > She became a CHM fellow several years ago https://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/2017-chm-fellow-margaret-hamilton/ From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jul 14 12:26:07 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 13:26:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Margaret Hamilton Guardian interview. Message-ID: <20190714172607.15D1B18C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Richard Loken > I have never heard of her before and had no idea. There are two books from participants in the development of the AGC software (both of which I highly recommend) which mention her: Hugh Blair-Smith, "Left Brains for the Right Stuff: Computers, Space, and History", Sdp Publishing, East Bridgewater, 2015 Don Eyles, "Sunburst and Luminary: An Apollo Memoir", Fort Point Press, Boston, 2017 The latter has somewhat grumpy note (pg. 342) which points out that she was only appointed to a management role in early 1970, after the first landing. It also points out that Hal Laning originated the concepts of "asynchronous software" and "priority scheduling". Eldon C. Hall's excellent project history, "Journey to the Moon: The History of the Apollo Guidance Computer" (which covers both h/w and s/w) doesn't mention her. Noel From guykd at optusnet.com.au Sun Jul 14 12:41:30 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2019 03:41:30 +1000 Subject: Box of HP 1000 series MUX cards - 12040 In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190709113524.0121d1b8@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190709113524.0121d1b8@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190715034130.012274e8@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 12:38 AM 14/07/2019 -0400, Jesse Dougherty wrote: >Whats your deal dude? I'm not trolling anyone. I have hundreds of these >boards here.. I don't need 170 HP 1000 Series MUX cards. They just don't >sell that often for me to hold on to. What else do you want me to do >with them. Its crazy that you are insanely upset that I cross posted on >here. If you want working 12040, I have 87 more after those. We strip >down system, build custom 1k boxes, sell parts, and buy parts.. kind of >what we do. OK, I'll explain without so much sarcasm, what you've done and why it's offensive. This is a forum for people who appreciate and like restoring and preserving classic computers. Almost by definition, classic computers (eg HP 1000) and their parts are rare to find in good/working condition. Also they don't have any commercial use, so prices are totally set by 'collectibles' market factors. And often are simply passed among like-minded people, for free. Most of us old guys have spent a lifetime trying and often failing, to save splendid old gear from destruction by bean-counter mentality types. Who think gear should either be in use making money, or destroyed as soon as possible to clear the way for other money-making systems. Now here you are, stripping boards from systems, chucking the boards in a deep pile in a box (likely breaking small parts off most of them), putting the box on ebay for 'gold scrap' but at a flat non-negotiable price that is surely way above the actual worth of the gold. Then acting like you're doing us a favor by letting us know of your offering. Also you have just confirmed that you don't want them and basically want to get rid of them. But you STILL haven't said anything about the $600 being flexible. >From your wording in both posts, it's obvious there'd be no chance of you taking any care to ship the boards in a way to avoid further damage if someone did buy them from you. By your actions so far, and manner, it's clear you regard them as absolute junk, fit only to be destroyed for gold recovery. To us, it's _painful_ to see all those boards being treated so. Summary: * We see them as likely already broken. Deliberately broken. Vandalized. By you. * And if by a miracle some are not already broken, they're very likely to be broken after you handle them some more and ship them. * In this context, your asking price is an insult. * It's probably even an insult to gold scrappers. * Which suggestes that you're a bit irrational. This isn't going to raise interest. No one has snapped up your generous ebay offer. Not even the gold recovery guys. I have a HP1000 system, and I'm in Australia, where such hardware is incredibly rare unobtainium. My system was rescued from a contract scrappers where it was about to be smashed and landfilled, minus probably the aluminum in the old HP racks. You're behaving in much the same way. I do know the guys running that place felt sad about destroying cool old things. Do you? Guy From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jul 14 13:08:06 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 11:08:06 -0700 Subject: Box of HP 1000 series MUX cards - 12040 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190715034130.012274e8@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20190709113524.0121d1b8@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190709113524.0121d1b8@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190715034130.012274e8@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <0cb8ef3f-7aab-792e-d43f-7e3fd8f03b00@bitsavers.org> On 7/14/19 10:41 AM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > Then acting like you're doing us a favor by letting us know of your offering. And YOU didn't live through Crisis Computer's downsizing seeing literally a large warehouse of HP hardware getting scrapped. The fact that anyone 15+ years after that happened is still in business is a wonder in itself. From js at cimmeri.com Sun Jul 14 13:04:28 2019 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 13:04:28 -0500 Subject: Box of HP 1000 series MUX cards - 12040 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190715034130.012274e8@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20190709113524.0121d1b8@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190709113524.0121d1b8@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190715034130.012274e8@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <5D2B6EAC.9040109@cimmeri.com> On 7/14/2019 12:41 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > At 12:38 AM 14/07/2019 -0400, Jesse Dougherty wrote: >> Whats your deal dude? I'm not trolling anyone. I have hundreds of these >> boards here.. I don't need 170 HP 1000 Series MUX cards. They just don't >> sell that often for me to hold on to. What else do you want me to do >> with them. Its crazy that you are insanely upset that I cross posted on >> here. If you want working 12040, I have 87 more after those. We strip >> down system, build custom 1k boxes, sell parts, and buy parts.. kind of >> what we do. > OK, I'll explain without so much sarcasm, what you've done and why it's offensive. > > > > To us, it's _painful_ to see all those boards being treated so. > > Summary: > > * We see them as likely already broken. Deliberately broken. Vandalized. By you. > * And if by a miracle some are not already broken, they're very likely to > be broken after you handle them some more and ship them. > * In this context, your asking price is an insult. > * It's probably even an insult to gold scrappers. > * Which suggestes that you're a bit irrational. This isn't going to > raise interest. > > > > Guy Just my 2 cents as a fellow 1000 (2113E) owner that wasn't offended by his post. 1st, they're his boards. 2nd, they're essentially useless MUX boards. The only value they might have to me is in the individual parts populating the boards themselves, which might be cannibalized to save useful boards. Not everything can be saved. - J. From pmackinlay at hotmail.com Sun Jul 14 06:20:12 2019 From: pmackinlay at hotmail.com (Patrick Mackinlay) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 11:20:12 +0000 Subject: SGI Personal Iris information Message-ID: I'm currently working on emulating the 4D/20 in MAME, and looking for anyone who might have actual hardware, software or documents that might help. Right now, most useful would be some high resolution images of the system boards, especially the GR1 graphics boards, or even schematics if they're out there. Appreciate any information or input at all. -- Pat. From kylevowen at gmail.com Sun Jul 14 07:22:54 2019 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 08:22:54 -0400 Subject: SGI Personal Iris information In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 07:20 Patrick Mackinlay via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I'm currently working on emulating the 4D/20 in MAME, and looking for > anyone who might have actual hardware, software or documents that might > help. > Would photos of a 4D/35 be helpful as well? If so, I can probably do that soon. Thanks, Kyle > From jesse at cypress-tech.co Sun Jul 14 13:06:42 2019 From: jesse at cypress-tech.co (Jesse Dougherty) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 14:06:42 -0400 Subject: Box of HP 1000 series MUX cards - 12040 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190715034130.012274e8@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20190709113524.0121d1b8@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190709113524.0121d1b8@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190715034130.012274e8@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: I'm not understanding your sentimental attachment on these mux cards. You can buy them all, bring them home, read to them before bed time, and take great care of them until they get older.... Nobody I have sold to in the 25 years of selling this older HP stuff has said they can use 1k MUX cards.. Believe me I have asked, I want all my hardware to find a great home but the inn is full and things have to go. The older HP boards have some gold in them, thats why I made that ad and a bump on here. That stuff will sell, might be a week, a month, a year and at a lesser price but someone will buy it. I don't mind you trashing the ad but me? I provide a service for this older HP stuff, there are not too many more of us out there that know ins and outs of 1k, 3k, 9k hardware. I buy this older stuff from anyone... people on this list included. Am I complaining, no because if I want something, I know there is a price. Lastly, you have no idea what the cost into these board are, you act as if I found them in a dumpster. These thing carry a cost that they were purchased for... excluding housing, storing them, shipping them when we move for past 15+ years. Its very different than rescuing (=free) a box from the crusher.. Even still, I wouldnt mind if you sold your rescued box or parts from it. On 7/14/19 1:41 PM, Guy Dunphy wrote: > OK, I'll explain without so much sarcasm, what you've done and why it's offensive. > > This is a forum for people who appreciate and like restoring and preserving > classic computers. Almost by definition, classic computers (eg HP 1000) > and their parts are rare to find in good/working condition. Also they > don't have any commercial use, so prices are totally set by 'collectibles' > market factors. And often are simply passed among like-minded people, for free. > > Most of us old guys have spent a lifetime trying and often failing, to save > splendid old gear from destruction by bean-counter mentality types. Who think > gear should either be in use making money, or destroyed as soon as possible > to clear the way for other money-making systems. > > Now here you are, stripping boards from systems, chucking the boards in a > deep pile in a box (likely breaking small parts off most of them), putting > the box on ebay for 'gold scrap' but at a flat non-negotiable price that is > surely way above the actual worth of the gold. > > Then acting like you're doing us a favor by letting us know of your offering. > > Also you have just confirmed that you don't want them and basically want > to get rid of them. But you STILL haven't said anything about the $600 being > flexible. > > From your wording in both posts, it's obvious there'd be no chance of you > taking any care to ship the boards in a way to avoid further damage if someone > did buy them from you. By your actions so far, and manner, it's clear you > regard them as absolute junk, fit only to be destroyed for gold recovery. > > To us, it's_painful_ to see all those boards being treated so. > > Summary: > > * We see them as likely already broken. Deliberately broken. Vandalized. By you. > * And if by a miracle some are not already broken, they're very likely to > be broken after you handle them some more and ship them. > * In this context, your asking price is an insult. > * It's probably even an insult to gold scrappers. > * Which suggestes that you're a bit irrational. This isn't going to > raise interest. > > No one has snapped up your generous ebay offer. Not even the gold recovery guys. > > I have a HP1000 system, and I'm in Australia, where such hardware is incredibly > rare unobtainium. My system was rescued from a contract scrappers where it was about > to be smashed and landfilled, minus probably the aluminum in the old HP racks. > You're behaving in much the same way. > > I do know the guys running that place felt sad about destroying cool old things. > Do you? > > Guy From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jul 14 17:14:41 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 22:14:41 +0000 Subject: Box of HP 1000 series MUX cards - 12040 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm curious. I'm not a HP fan but I do have a 21MX in my collection. I've run it enough to see that the front panel is working with some RAM. My question is, why would anyone use a MUX card ( in other words what are they used for )? The next question is even for someone that had a use for some, why would they want to buy 87 of them? As for gold value, the offered value is closer than many I see on ebay. I don't know how much gold there is, counting chip packages and such but less than $7 per board seems closer than some of the offers I've seen, on ebay. I can understand from a business point of view, the desire to get some value from them but at 87 boards, once the value of scrap is determined, that would more likely be where they would sell to. Expecting collectors to take on 87 units to get one or two makes little sense. I tend to agree, it seems to be a disingenuous offer, at least for HP1000 enthusiast. As scrape value not so disingenuous. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of GerardCJAT via cctalk Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2019 1:49 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Box of HP 1000 series MUX cards - 12040 The right question is : Does theses worth $ 600 as gold scrap ?? Certainly NOT, so ..... This is "If you want that scrap, you pay a premium ". A premium for what ( or for who ) ?? From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Sun Jul 14 23:17:35 2019 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2019 00:17:35 -0400 Subject: SGI Personal Iris information In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Greetings, im not sure if it would be of help, but i know someone who is quite far along with an emulator for the sgi crimson. He bought my sgi crimson a while ago and has been reverse engineering the hardware. Not sure if that would be of help, i could put him in contact with you if needed. On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 4:52 PM Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 07:20 Patrick Mackinlay via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > I'm currently working on emulating the 4D/20 in MAME, and looking for > > anyone who might have actual hardware, software or documents that might > > help. > > > > Would photos of a 4D/35 be helpful as well? If so, I can probably do that > soon. > > Thanks, > > Kyle > > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 15 00:57:36 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2019 01:57:36 -0400 Subject: RF08 light panel In-Reply-To: <6b50b318-4763-24cb-7164-8515b337cba6@bitsavers.org> References: <6b50b318-4763-24cb-7164-8515b337cba6@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 6:28 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > bet this won't go cheap > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/372706567865 Did anyone here get it? I did not bid because I have zero parts of an RF08 (and if I ever make a modern RF08 emulator, I might as well make one of these to match). -ethan From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jul 15 07:49:00 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2019 14:49:00 +0200 Subject: visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum - Elliot 803 In-Reply-To: <173001d53a12$bafbbca0$30f335e0$@gmail.com> References: <173001d53a12$bafbbca0$30f335e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Jul 2019 at 14:04, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > > Bill, > Ask Peter about emulators. Pretty sure some one at the museum did an 803 emulator, (not in SIMH) >From a casual Google there seem to be several... https://sourceforge.net/projects/elliott803/ http://www.peteronion.org.uk/Elliott/ http://www.peteronion.org.uk/Elliott/PIC803.html http://www.emucr.com/2012/06/elliott-803-simulation-v110.html?m=1 -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Mon Jul 15 10:27:48 2019 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2019 11:27:48 -0400 Subject: RF08 light panel In-Reply-To: References: <6b50b318-4763-24cb-7164-8515b337cba6@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: $113.50 seems pretty cheap to me, that's like four cocktails in Manhattan. Hope someone on this list got it! -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Mon, Jul 15, 2019 at 1:57 AM Ethan Dicks via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 6:28 PM Al Kossow via cctalk > wrote: > > bet this won't go cheap > > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/372706567865 > > Did anyone here get it? I did not bid because I have zero parts of an > RF08 (and if I ever make a modern RF08 emulator, I might as well make > one of these to match). > > -ethan > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Mon Jul 15 10:58:23 2019 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2019 08:58:23 -0700 Subject: Margaret Hamilton Guardian interview. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190714091058.012216a0@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20190714091058.012216a0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: Good eye. It?s an HP 2116B. In the queue for restoration. We were starting to work on it, then the AGC opportunity came along... Marc > On Jul 13, 2019, at 4:10 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > > At 01:48 PM 13/07/2019 -0700, you wrote: >> Another of the un-acknowledged people in the upcoming July 29 >> 'celebrations'. >> >> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/jul/13/margaret-hamilton-computer-scientist-interview-software-apollo-missions-1969-moon-landing-nasa-women >> >> --lyndon > > > Highly related: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhVKYDVZxWQ > Apollo AGC Part 19: Restoration complete! > Published on Jul 12, 2019 > IWe finally are able to make the original erasable core memory work, under the watchful eye of guests more famous than us. This completes the restoration of the AGC. In the process we dump the historical content that was still present in the memory module and find all kinds of interesting things. > > > > Also, at 17:26 is that a HP 2116A in the background? Tall gray rackmount unit. First minicomputer HP made. > > Guy From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Jul 15 21:51:07 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 02:51:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: We are looking to buy RCA VP3501 keyboard or any of the 3000 data term items please drop us a line off list ( and art material photos posters etc too to add to display as well as hardware) References: <713808082.1019442.1563245467603.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <713808082.1019442.1563245467603@mail.yahoo.com> We are looking? to buy RCA? VP3501 keyboard or any of the 3000? data term items please? drop us a line off list (and art material? photos posters etc too to add to display as well as? hardware) Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Jul 15 23:26:52 2019 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2019 23:26:52 -0500 Subject: 5 1/4 diskettes available In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190712092115.01221688@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <640141855.18066.1562783547182@email.ionos.com> <92e804f7-c0af-6b5d-979a-6e2bf1ce2f26@bitsavers.org> <3.0.6.32.20190712092115.01221688@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 6:21 PM Guy Dunphy wrote: > > So they are! Oops. Sorry! > Maybe they had a rush of orders, and it's not entirely my fault? > Or maybe the 89c price was a typo, and my order alerted them? The magic of automatic reactive pricing systems, I guess. I received my package from BG Micro today with the disks and a few other items (including a IBM PC Convertible 128K RAM card - never know when I'll need one of those. Comes with original $190 Sears price tag!) I was happy to see that the floppies came with sleeves bearing the old Compaq logo. Very classy! No clue if the disks are any good but they do appear to be 360K media. https://imgur.com/QGrpowk -j From trash80 at internode.on.net Mon Jul 15 23:29:09 2019 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 14:29:09 +1000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?New_face_of_the_Bank_of_England's_=A350_note_is_revealed_a?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?s_Alan_Turing?= Message-ID: <01cb01d53b8f$03bae600$0b30b200$@internode.on.net> May be of interest to some list members https://www.bbc.com/news/business-48962557 Kevin Parker 0418 815 527 From ethan at 757.org Tue Jul 16 07:20:39 2019 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 08:20:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Artsearch software for MicroVax? Message-ID: Anyone happen to have the Artsearch software for Microvax? It's my understanding the the software drove a laserdisc player. A friend has the laserdiscs but not the software. -- : Ethan O'Toole From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jul 16 14:54:45 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 15:54:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RF08 light panel Message-ID: <20190716195445.CDEB918C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ethan Dicks > Did anyone here get it? Yeah, me - although I didn't expect to! Because of my work on DEC indicator panels (this one's a 10-1/2" panel, unusual): http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/DECIndicatorPanels.html I put in what seemed to me a lowish bid, expecting not to get it (I figured I'd make do with the image from the sale), and was rather surprised that I got it. I don't have an RF08, of course, so if anyone actually has an RF08, I'll happily do a deal to get it to you. > I did not bid because I have zero parts of an RF08 (and if I ever > make a modern RF08 emulator, I might as well make one of these to > match). Yeah, for the QSIC indicator panels, we built totally new ones, too. We took advantage of that to change the interface; the DEC originals have a wire per light, which is kind of klunky. Ours time-multiplexes a single data line (there are 'clock' and 'latch' lines too); visually, it seems to look identical to the DEC originals in operation. Noel From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Jul 16 15:10:29 2019 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 13:10:29 -0700 Subject: DEC Purchase Specifications, particularly 23-000A9-01 Message-ID: I've been studying scanned documents for the M9312 UNIBUS bootstrap/terminator card because of reasons. They refer to Digital Equipment Corporation Purchase Specifications 23-000A9-01 and 23-000F1-01 for the PROMs, and I'm wondering whether those documents have been preserved anywhere? I'd love to see them. Ok, about the reasons: My PDP-11/34A has an M9301-YF bootstrap/terminator card, which doesn't have bootstrap code for a couple of the newer devices I'd like to use in the system such as RL02 and emulated TU58. The newer M9312 card looks more flexible for changing out bootstraps than the M9301 series. I'm working on getting my hands on an M9312, but I don't know yet whether I'll be able to get original PROMs for the specific bootstraps that I want. I haven't identified a trustworthy source for blank old-timey bipolar PROMs yet (and I'm not sure if I have a suitable device programmer for them), and I was thinking about making some sort of PROM emulations that I can swap around like they're going out of style. It would probably be helpful (and definitely interesting) if I could learn details about the original part specifications, such as what speed ratings DEC used. I don't have an M9312 in my hands yet, and I'm not yet sure about how rapidly the card performs its little 4-to-16 bit deserialization stunt. If 70ns access time parts are sufficient for the M9312's PROMs, then I may design an emulation with a 5V compatible 28 series EEPROM. If they need to be faster, then I may need to do something fancier. Or maybe I'll find the original PROMs that I need and then get distracted and wander off. It may well be easier to design a replacement for the entire M9312 card than trying to emulate the individual 512x4 bipolar PROMs, but since when do I do anything the easy way? I sure wouldn't be playing with 40 year old computers if I was concerned with practicality and ease of use! -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Jul 16 15:19:38 2019 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 16:19:38 -0400 Subject: DEC Purchase Specifications, particularly 23-000A9-01 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 4:10 PM Mark J. Blair via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I've been studying scanned documents for the M9312 UNIBUS > bootstrap/terminator card because of reasons. They refer to Digital > Equipment Corporation Purchase Specifications 23-000A9-01 and 23-000F1-01 > for the PROMs, and I'm wondering whether those documents have been > preserved anywhere? I'd love to see them. > > Ok, about the reasons: My PDP-11/34A has an M9301-YF bootstrap/terminator > card, which doesn't have bootstrap code for a couple of the newer devices > I'd like to use in the system such as RL02 and emulated TU58. The newer > M9312 card looks more flexible for changing out bootstraps than the M9301 > series. > > I'm working on getting my hands on an M9312, but I don't know yet whether > I'll be able to get original PROMs for the specific bootstraps that I want. > I haven't identified a trustworthy source for blank old-timey bipolar PROMs > yet (and I'm not sure if I have a suitable device programmer for them), and > I was thinking about making some sort of PROM emulations that I can swap > around like they're going out of style. It would probably be helpful (and > definitely interesting) if I could learn details about the original part > specifications, such as what speed ratings DEC used. I don't have an M9312 > in my hands yet, and I'm not yet sure about how rapidly the card performs > its little 4-to-16 bit deserialization stunt. > > If 70ns access time parts are sufficient for the M9312's PROMs, then I may > design an emulation with a 5V compatible 28 series EEPROM. If they need to > be faster, then I may need to do something fancier. Or maybe I'll find the > original PROMs that I need and then get distracted and wander off. It may > well be easier to design a replacement for the entire M9312 card than > trying to emulate the individual 512x4 bipolar PROMs, but since when do I > do anything the easy way? I sure wouldn't be playing with 40 year old > computers if I was concerned with practicality and ease of use! > > -- > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > http://www.nf6x.net/ Mark, This guy makes them https://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-PDP-11-Boot-Prom-M9312-RL02-RX01-RX02-RK06-07-nach-Wunsch/192564377085 He may be able to advise answers to your questions if you find the price it too high. Bill From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Tue Jul 16 18:18:46 2019 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 19:18:46 -0400 Subject: DEC Purchase Specifications, particularly 23-000A9-01 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Don't know if you are aware of this data, might just give you some hints. http://www.ak6dn.com/PDP-11/M9312/ On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 4:19 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 4:10 PM Mark J. Blair via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > I've been studying scanned documents for the M9312 UNIBUS > > bootstrap/terminator card because of reasons. They refer to Digital > > Equipment Corporation Purchase Specifications 23-000A9-01 and 23-000F1-01 > > for the PROMs, and I'm wondering whether those documents have been > > preserved anywhere? I'd love to see them. > > > > Ok, about the reasons: My PDP-11/34A has an M9301-YF bootstrap/terminator > > card, which doesn't have bootstrap code for a couple of the newer devices > > I'd like to use in the system such as RL02 and emulated TU58. The newer > > M9312 card looks more flexible for changing out bootstraps than the M9301 > > series. > > > > I'm working on getting my hands on an M9312, but I don't know yet whether > > I'll be able to get original PROMs for the specific bootstraps that I want. > > I haven't identified a trustworthy source for blank old-timey bipolar PROMs > > yet (and I'm not sure if I have a suitable device programmer for them), and > > I was thinking about making some sort of PROM emulations that I can swap > > around like they're going out of style. It would probably be helpful (and > > definitely interesting) if I could learn details about the original part > > specifications, such as what speed ratings DEC used. I don't have an M9312 > > in my hands yet, and I'm not yet sure about how rapidly the card performs > > its little 4-to-16 bit deserialization stunt. > > > > If 70ns access time parts are sufficient for the M9312's PROMs, then I may > > design an emulation with a 5V compatible 28 series EEPROM. If they need to > > be faster, then I may need to do something fancier. Or maybe I'll find the > > original PROMs that I need and then get distracted and wander off. It may > > well be easier to design a replacement for the entire M9312 card than > > trying to emulate the individual 512x4 bipolar PROMs, but since when do I > > do anything the easy way? I sure wouldn't be playing with 40 year old > > computers if I was concerned with practicality and ease of use! > > > > -- > > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > > http://www.nf6x.net/ > > > Mark, > This guy makes them > https://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-PDP-11-Boot-Prom-M9312-RL02-RX01-RX02-RK06-07-nach-Wunsch/192564377085 > > He may be able to advise answers to your questions if you find the price it > too high. > > Bill From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jul 16 18:30:49 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 19:30:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mystery DEC backplane on eBay Message-ID: <20190716233049.C088E18C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> For those who saw this item: https://www.ebay.com/itm/183639487495 but didn't know what it went to (Web searches for "5409818" and "5009817" didn't turn up anything useful for me), it turns out to be a "Configuration 2" backplane for a PDP-11/05-/10: http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11/05#Backplane_versions with slots for one MM11-L memory unit, and 4 SPC slots. Noel From guykd at optusnet.com.au Tue Jul 16 22:17:41 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 13:17:41 +1000 Subject: Mystery DEC backplane on eBay In-Reply-To: <20190716233049.C088E18C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190717131741.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 07:30 PM 16/07/2019 -0400, you wrote: >For those who saw this item: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/183639487495 > >but didn't know what it went to (Web searches for "5409818" and "5009817" >didn't turn up anything useful for me), it turns out to be a "Configuration >2" backplane for a PDP-11/05-/10: > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11/05#Backplane_versions > >with slots for one MM11-L memory unit, and 4 SPC slots. > > Noel > And what is this: ebay 273920073404 https://www.ebay.com/itm/Storage-Expansion-Boards-Backplanes-for-DEC-PDP-8-I-Rare-Vintage-Computer/273920073404 I see a lot of flip-chip modules with numbers the same as in my PDP 8/S. If it wasn't for the shipping costs for a big thing like that, I'd bid. Guy From bob at jfcl.com Tue Jul 16 19:27:20 2019 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 17:27:20 -0700 Subject: Simulators for NCR Century series computers Message-ID: <007501d53c36$65ab3fc0$3101bf40$@com> Is anyone aware of a simulator for the NCR Century series computers? And no, simh doesn't do them. Thanks, Bob Armstrong From guykd at optusnet.com.au Tue Jul 16 22:04:30 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 13:04:30 +1000 Subject: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) In-Reply-To: <007501d53c36$65ab3fc0$3101bf40$@com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvM82T3C2Ik Exploring a MASSIVE Retro Computer Warehouse! via https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/lgr-retro-computer-warehouse/ To lessen risk of developing PTSD from watching that video, I'll mention that right at the end he explains there IS a process in place for getting access and buying stuff. Or free, if you are a museum. He gives the contact details. So it's not a case of "look at this Aladdin's Cave of retro treasures, and you're too late, now it's all bulldozed, ha ha." Which was what I thought it was going to be, through most of that video. Guy From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jul 17 00:14:05 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 22:14:05 -0700 Subject: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <2aed084b-560a-4f87-c5a9-f898d487fd0b@bitsavers.org> > Exploring a MASSIVE Retro Computer Warehouse! old news, dredged up again because of a youtube jackass From pbirkel at gmail.com Wed Jul 17 03:20:38 2019 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 04:20:38 -0400 Subject: DEC Purchase Specifications, particularly 23-000A9-01 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <019401d53c78$846ce9d0$8d46bd70$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark J. Blair via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2019 4:10 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: DEC Purchase Specifications, particularly 23-000A9-01 ..... If 70ns access time parts are sufficient for the M9312's PROMs, then I may design an emulation with a 5V compatible 28 series EEPROM. If they need to be faster, then I may need to do something fancier. Or maybe I'll find the original PROMs that I need and then get distracted and wander off. It may well be easier to design a replacement for the entire M9312 card than trying to emulate the individual 512x4 bipolar PROMs, but since when do I do anything the easy way? I sure wouldn't be playing with 40 year old computers if I was concerned with practicality and ease of use! ----- >From some notes (origin misplaced!) you'll need a typical access time of 40ns from address, or 20ns from /CS: ---- DEC boot PROMs on Unibus cards are small bipolar fusible-link PROMs The A9 types are 82S131 (or MMI6306, 75S171, 27S13, 93448, etc) 16-pin DIL 512-words by 4-bit wide. Pin spacing is 0.1", pin column pitch is 0.3". Access times are typically 40ns from address, or 20ns from /CS. ____ ____ | U | A6 | 1 16 | Vcc A5 | 2 15 | A7 A4 | 3 14 | A8 A3 | 4 13 | /CS A0 | 5 12 | D0 A1 | 6 11 | D1 A2 | 7 10 | D2 Vss | 8 9 | D3 |_________| The F1 types are 82S137 (or TI24S41, MMI6353, 74S573, 27S33, 93453, etc) 18-pin DIL 1024 words x 4-bit wide. Pin spacing is 0.1", pin column pitch is 0.3". Access times are typically 40ns from address, or 20ns from /CS. ____ ____ | U | A6 | 1 18 | Vcc A5 | 2 17 | A7 A4 | 3 16 | A8 A3 | 4 15 | A9 A0 | 5 14 | D0 A1 | 6 13 | D1 A2 | 7 12 | D2 /CS1 | 8 11 | D3 Vss | 9 10 | /CS2 |_________| Note for all types: although the types listed are read-compatible, each brand/type may use a very different programming algorithm. Also note that these have tri-state outputs; other types (eg 27S13A) have open-collector outputs. ---- And a potentially useful utility from Eric Smith: https://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/software/m9312/ I have a vague recollection that someone kludged an 11/84 UBA (M8191) in the manner that you describe but I can't find the reference at the moment. Perhaps the memory of someone else will be jogged ... ----- From ethan at 757.org Wed Jul 17 06:09:52 2019 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 07:09:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) In-Reply-To: <2aed084b-560a-4f87-c5a9-f898d487fd0b@bitsavers.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> <2aed084b-560a-4f87-c5a9-f898d487fd0b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: >> Exploring a MASSIVE Retro Computer Warehouse! > old news, dredged up again because of a youtube jackass Why is LGR a jackass? - Ethan -- : Ethan O'Toole From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Jul 17 07:34:55 2019 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 07:34:55 -0500 Subject: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) In-Reply-To: <2aed084b-560a-4f87-c5a9-f898d487fd0b@bitsavers.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> <2aed084b-560a-4f87-c5a9-f898d487fd0b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: How?s lgr a jackass???? Sent from my iPad > On Jul 17, 2019, at 12:14 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > >> Exploring a MASSIVE Retro Computer Warehouse! > > old news, dredged up again because of a youtube jackass > > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jul 17 08:00:29 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 09:00:29 -0400 Subject: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> <2aed084b-560a-4f87-c5a9-f898d487fd0b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > Why is LGR a jackass? Well, I think he kind of created a shitstorm and gave CR a little too much exposure. The CR liquidation seems to have been going at a nice controlled rate. Now that the whole world knows, it would not be a surprise if security issues come up. Basically, he should have released the video after CR had been pretty cleared out and closed. He should have realized the consequences of his video. This is why when I get into a place like this, I am very picky about who I let it, and in no way allow videos to be made and published on Youtube, even on my own channel. -- Will From ethan at 757.org Wed Jul 17 09:16:44 2019 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 10:16:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> <2aed084b-560a-4f87-c5a9-f898d487fd0b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > Well, I think he kind of created a shitstorm and gave CR a little too > much exposure. The CR liquidation seems to have been going at a nice > controlled rate. Now that the whole world knows, it would not be a > surprise if security issues come up. Eh, friends of mine were talking about that place like 2 months prior to LGR's video. Just remember, it's not the only one. There are likely to be similar places around flyover America. It takes a really dedicated person to travel across the country. As long as the crap goes into nerd hands versus the landfill, so be it? > This is why when I get into a place like this, I am very picky about > who I let it, and in no way allow videos to be made and published on > Youtube, even on my own channel. "Me only." So people are upset that the magic well was exposed. I see the same stuff with the arcade community. They're quick to show off all the machines they get for $50/ea from some place then they're all for sale at $1500/ea two months later. Eh, it will be all $50 again or less soon enough. Just be happy that anyone cares about old useless computers? -- : Ethan O'Toole From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jul 17 09:50:50 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 07:50:50 -0700 Subject: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> <2aed084b-560a-4f87-c5a9-f898d487fd0b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 7/17/19 7:16 AM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: > So people are upset that the magic well was exposed. No, people are upset because of the ill will created by the family members having to deal with cleaning up their father's mess. On VCF, a message pointing to an earlier video was pulled and keyboard poachers have been banned. http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?69913-FYI-Computer-Reset-liquidation-(Dallas-TX)/page17&highlight=computer+reset From pat at vax11.net Wed Jul 17 10:29:14 2019 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 11:29:14 -0400 Subject: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> <2aed084b-560a-4f87-c5a9-f898d487fd0b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 10:17 AM Ethan O'Toole via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Well, I think he kind of created a shitstorm and gave CR a little too > > much exposure. The CR liquidation seems to have been going at a nice > > controlled rate. Now that the whole world knows, it would not be a > > surprise if security issues come up. > > Eh, friends of mine were talking about that place like 2 months prior to > LGR's video. Just remember, it's not the only one. There are likely to be > similar places around flyover America. > I'd agree in prinicpal, but if even 0.1% of LGR's 1M youtube followers try to show up one day, it'd be a Problem. More people going will create a bigger headache for the volunteers helping to deal with the situation and might end up in no one getting anything. There's some threshold where instead of "more people getting retrocomputers", it's "This is too much stress, so it's all going to a landfill". I've been overwhelmed trying to deal with my own collection sometimes; I can't imagine having 10-20x the space filled up would be like. It's way too easy to keep growing the collection (more space is expensive and stuff takes a lot more time to curate and organize than acquire) until it's physically and mentally exhausting to deal with. One thing I've been reminded of a few times by stuff like this is that I should organize stuff (and keep it organized), have a plan for dispersing my collection when i'm gone, and make sure I have some sort of inventory. It's unfortuante that this wasn't a well known business/resource before it was an overflowing burden for the family to deal with. It may be our "treasures" now, but it's also someone's misfortune that made it that way. :-/ Pat From ethan at 757.org Wed Jul 17 10:42:21 2019 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 11:42:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> <2aed084b-560a-4f87-c5a9-f898d487fd0b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > I'd agree in prinicpal, but if even 0.1% of LGR's 1M youtube followers try > to show up one day, it'd be a Problem. More people going will create a > bigger headache for the volunteers helping to deal with the situation and > might end up in no one getting anything. There's some threshold where > instead of "more people getting retrocomputers", it's "This is too much > stress, so it's all going to a landfill". I've been overwhelmed trying to > deal with my own collection sometimes; I can't imagine having 10-20x the > space filled up would be like. I doubt .1% of LGR's followers are going to show up. Perhaps a few will inquire. > It's way too easy to keep growing the collection (more space is expensive > and stuff takes a lot more time to curate and organize than acquire) until Right, and much of the younger generation is shut out of decent property ownership thanks to the asset bubble (which includes retrocomputers.) So this will curtail a lot of them from trying to aquire huge loads of old computers since they're presented with overpriced housing near the job centers. The half of the population profits from this thinks it's good for some reason. That's why a lot of people will watch it on youtube instead. -- : Ethan O'Toole From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Jul 17 10:43:23 2019 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 08:43:23 -0700 Subject: DEC Purchase Specifications, particularly 23-000A9-01 In-Reply-To: <019401d53c78$846ce9d0$8d46bd70$@gmail.com> References: <019401d53c78$846ce9d0$8d46bd70$@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Jul 17, 2019, at 1:20 AM, Paul Birkel wrote: > From some notes (origin misplaced!) you'll need a typical access time of > 40ns from address, or 20ns from /CS: Thank you! That rules out using a 70ns EEPROM, then. I think I have a line on most of the bootstrap PROMs that I will need, but I'm still interested in the general problem of replacing defective bipolar PROMs and making new ones, when I can't just order blanks from Digi-Key. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jul 17 11:12:22 2019 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 11:12:22 -0500 Subject: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> <2aed084b-560a-4f87-c5a9-f898d487fd0b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20190717161331.7FA5A4E680@mx2.ezwind.net> At 10:29 AM 7/17/2019, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk wrote: >On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 10:17 AM Ethan O'Toole via cctalk < > There are likely to be similar places around flyover America. You been poking around my warehouse? >I'd agree in prinicpal, but if even 0.1% of LGR's 1M youtube followers try >to show up one day, it'd be a Problem. More people going will create a >bigger headache for the volunteers helping to deal with the situation and >might end up in no one getting anything. YouTube subscriber numbers versus reality; you'd have a hard time getting 0.00001% of those subscribers to do anything in the real world. >I've been overwhelmed trying to >deal with my own collection sometimes; I can't imagine having 10-20x the >space filled up would be like. I'm overwhelmed and it's time to purge. The problem isn't a desire for old computers, the problem is having too much space. You might like motorcycles or tractors or Beanie Babies, but if you have the space and the inclination, you can eventually fill your available space. > There's some threshold where >instead of "more people getting retrocomputers", it's "This is too much >stress, so it's all going to a landfill". Yes, assuming you expended the effort to organize and document, then organization makes dispersal slightly more easy... but most of the problem is still there. You want to advertise what you have? Effort. Put a value on it? More effort. Want to give it away? Sell it? All that takes time and effort. Lots of time. Packing, shipping, even just dealing with schedules and communication and meet-ups and those who don't show up. And yes, if you're in "flyover America" you have far fewer enthusiasts to attract for local pickup. Even sending it all to recycling takes a tremendous amount of effort. I put some stuff on eBay the other day, some server stuff less than ten years old plus some other items, like 18 VoIP phones with a starting bid of 99 cents... the only thing seeing a bid so far is a NIB toner cartridge for an HP laser printer. So, to deal with my own hoarding / collecting, I'll strive to make a list of stuff I haven't touched in 10, 20, 30 years, and I'll post here to see if anyone is interested. Too much lingering obligation and future debt, even if it only has to go to recycling. I've considered taking a truckful to VCF Midwest, but apparently I'd need to make a big scary sign that says "If you don't take it now, it's going to recycling" because I can't imagine that I'd be able to give away half the load. - John From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Wed Jul 17 11:23:23 2019 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 09:23:23 -0700 Subject: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) Message-ID: <65o61pdog0gvrjcoh2yee8wf.1563380603201@email.android.com> >It's unfortuante that this wasn't a well >known business/resource before it>was an overflowing burden for the family >to deal with.??Actually it was. They used to sell on eBay all the time. Guy was an old timer, nice enough once you got to know him but he wasn't very friendly or easy to deal with initially specially through eBay (listing with ridiculous S&H, no response to messages, etc).The place was on my list of if "I ever have the time and money" but life caught up to them before I hit the lottery :D.-Ali From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jul 17 11:26:40 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 12:26:40 -0400 Subject: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> <2aed084b-560a-4f87-c5a9-f898d487fd0b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > Eh, friends of mine were talking about that place like 2 months prior to > LGR's video. Yes, some of us were called on the first day the whole thing developed. > Just remember, it's not the only one. There are likely to be > similar places around flyover America. Yes, I realize this. Much of my business is estate and failed business cleanouts. > As long as the crap goes into nerd hands versus the landfill, so be it? Oh, and don't forget THE OWNER AND FAMILY. It is about them, right? They are the primary beneficiaries of whatever happens to the pile. We should be grateful to them. > "Me only." So people are upset that the magic well was exposed. No, it is about "control". Back, two months ago or so, the group that knew and were visiting CR was fairly small - maybe a few hundred people, most collectors and/or dealers, many knowing each other. Misfits could likely be pointed out, maybe so an eye could be kept on them. But now that it has world exposure, everyone knows about it, including potentially every scrap thief in the DFW area. They now know the backstory if they see the video and do some research beyond Youtube. And they will know when the place will be opened, and when it will be closed. They will know the internal layout of the place. They might know, with the family in such a state, the alarm may or may not work. Pull up a trailer, hire 10 migrant workers, forge some papers saying they are a hired contractor (just in case someone gets nosey), and in a day every bit of electronics is gone. There is plenty there to make them a good buck on scrap. All this can happen in the blink of an eye. What do you think the owner and family would get out of that scenario? Remember the owner and family? Yes, this happens all the time. Fake contractors break into and empty storage lockers all them time - even modern ones with video and such. Even full one family houses get hit. A few houses down from my old place, some fake movers did just that - cleared a whole house while the owner was on vacation. And this was in a nice neighborhood, during a nice day during a normal week. No one said a word to the cops until it was all over. > Just be happy that anyone cares about old useless computers? I am very happy that the guys stepped up to liquidate the place, and I think they are doing a great job. The LGR video is not really helping them, and greatly increased the chances for a disaster. Oh, I did not mention how some of those misfits can throw their own wrenches in the works. Piss one of them off and he calls the Fire Marshall. Some dick did that when I was cleaning out Compass so many years ago (if you remember the Compass Teletype cleanout in NJ, you have been on this list too long!), and delayed things for a couple of weeks. -- Will From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Wed Jul 17 11:28:37 2019 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 09:28:37 -0700 Subject: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) Message-ID: >So, to deal with my own hoarding / >collecting, I'll strive to make?>a list of stuff I haven't touched in 10, 20, >30 years, and I'll >post here to see if anyone is interested.? >Too much lingering >obligation and future debt, even if it only >has to go to recycling.This is always a good first step. If people don't know what you have people can't reach out.Just saying ;)-Ali From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jul 17 11:30:38 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 12:30:38 -0400 Subject: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> <2aed084b-560a-4f87-c5a9-f898d487fd0b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > I doubt .1% of LGR's followers are going to show up. Perhaps a few will > inquire. I would not worry about that. I would worry about LGR's trolls. He must have a ton of them - every Youtuber does. Hell, even I do and I am a nobody. There are probably more than a few 13 year old (or 40 going on 13 year old) LGR subscribers that got pissed off because CR is a cash and carry operation - no shipping. And if they can't have that NOS kittycat computer case, nobody can. Will this happen? Probably not, but the chances it will skyrocketted. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jul 17 11:34:38 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 12:34:38 -0400 Subject: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) In-Reply-To: <20190717161331.7FA5A4E680@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> <2aed084b-560a-4f87-c5a9-f898d487fd0b@bitsavers.org> <20190717161331.7FA5A4E680@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > I'm overwhelmed and it's time to purge. The problem isn't a desire > for old computers, the problem is having too much space. You might > like motorcycles or tractors or Beanie Babies, but if you have the > space and the inclination, you can eventually fill your available space. Been there, got yelled at, thinning out. > I've considered taking a truckful to VCF Midwest, but apparently > I'd need to make a big scary sign that says "If you don't take it now, > it's going to recycling" because I can't imagine that I'd be able > to give away half the load. I am doing a documentation purge (most DEC) at VCFmw this year, just as I did a few years ago. And yes, what does not get sold or given away gets pulped at the end of the show. My van will then be empty so I can take your stuff. -- Will From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Wed Jul 17 11:39:38 2019 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 11:39:38 -0500 Subject: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> <2aed084b-560a-4f87-c5a9-f898d487fd0b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <8BDE69BC-2189-4776-AD00-7793C60F0EB3@lunar-tokyo.net> > On Jul 17, 2019, at 11:26 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > > Oh, I did not mention how some of those misfits can throw their own > wrenches in the works. Piss one of them off and he calls the Fire > Marshall. Some dick did that when I was cleaning out Compass so many > years ago (if you remember the Compass Teletype cleanout in NJ, you > have been on this list too long!), and delayed things for a couple of > weeks. This. People on the internet are insane. I have gotten literal death threats for refusing to sell keyboards. People threatening to find my home address and do things about my ?hoarding?. I should never have said a goddamn word on the internet. I regret ever releasing anything open source. For every one person who wants to contribute there are a dozen who just want to complain - or worse. I?m so very tired of being screamed at. I almost want to just dump it all and walk away. This is not what I signed up for. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 17 12:14:39 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 10:14:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> <2aed084b-560a-4f87-c5a9-f898d487fd0b@bitsavers.org> <20190717161331.7FA5A4E680@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > I'm overwhelmed and it's time to purge. The problem isn't a desire > for old computers, the problem is having too much space. You might > like motorcycles or tractors or Beanie Babies, but if you have the > space and the inclination, you can eventually fill your available space. Boyles Law. From cctalk at snarc.net Wed Jul 17 10:14:55 2019 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 11:14:55 -0400 Subject: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> <2aed084b-560a-4f87-c5a9-f898d487fd0b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <57944dcf-c429-ec91-c19b-49f5ce3754c5@snarc.net> >> Well, I think he kind of created a shitstorm and gave CR a little too >> much exposure. The CR liquidation seems to have been going at a nice >> controlled rate. Now that the whole world knows, it would not be a >> surprise if security issues come up. > > Eh, friends of mine were talking about that place like 2 months prior > to LGR's video. Plus it was already on Reddit and other places before LGR found out. From sales at elecplus.com Wed Jul 17 12:34:09 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 12:34:09 -0500 Subject: IBM documentation is San Antonio Message-ID: <087101d53cc5$d792be80$86b83b80$@com> A friend of mine is an old IBM dealer. His mother started the business, and they have documentation going back to the beamspring days. He has agreed that he will pack all the stuff into boxes and pack the boxes on a pallet. These are not free; he wants an offer, since he has to pay a guy to pack, cost of boxes, etc. There are several hundred pounds of stuff. Think of a 5 foot wide 6 foot tall cabinet stuffed to the gills, and then multiply that by at least 4. If interested, let me know. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jul 17 12:40:54 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 13:40:54 -0400 Subject: IBM documentation is San Antonio In-Reply-To: <087101d53cc5$d792be80$86b83b80$@com> References: <087101d53cc5$d792be80$86b83b80$@com> Message-ID: He needs to take some pictures of what he has - just the covers and such. Lots of random pictures to give a good taste of what there is. So much IBM info is incredibly common. They ran one of the biggest publishing businesses in the world for a while, and it was just their own stuff! -- Will On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 1:34 PM Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > > A friend of mine is an old IBM dealer. His mother started the business, and > they have documentation going back to the beamspring days. He has agreed > that he will pack all the stuff into boxes and pack the boxes on a pallet. > These are not free; he wants an offer, since he has to pay a guy to pack, > cost of boxes, etc. There are several hundred pounds of stuff. Think of a 5 > foot wide 6 foot tall cabinet stuffed to the gills, and then multiply that > by at least 4. If interested, let me know. > > > > Cindy Croxton > > Electronics Plus > > 1613 Water Street > > Kerrville, TX 78028 > > 830-370-3239 cell > > sales at elecplus.com > > > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus From linimon at lonesome.com Wed Jul 17 13:33:57 2019 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 18:33:57 +0000 Subject: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) In-Reply-To: <20190717161331.7FA5A4E680@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> <2aed084b-560a-4f87-c5a9-f898d487fd0b@bitsavers.org> <20190717161331.7FA5A4E680@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20190717183346.GA12926@lonesome.com> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 11:12:22AM -0500, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > So, to deal with my own hoarding / collecting, I'll strive to make > a list of stuff I haven't touched in 10, 20, 30 years, and I'll > post here to see if anyone is interested. Same here -- but life keeps getting in the way of me completing the list :-( There's nothing "superbly classic" around here, though. Bunch of working sun4u gear and old databooks. And I *do* have the space -- in my shop outside. But the stuff that's *inside* is just in the way; and if I move it at all, it's to move it off the property. (psst: the Raptor Blackbird is _not_ included in the above list ...) mcl From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Jul 17 13:44:31 2019 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 13:44:31 -0500 Subject: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> <2aed084b-560a-4f87-c5a9-f898d487fd0b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <65190DAA-516A-4B0F-9296-8799D3AC7E59@gmail.com> Sorry but I haven?t a clue w cr liquidation is. Sent from my iPad On Jul 17, 2019, at 8:00 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: >> Why is LGR a jackass? > > Well, I think he kind of created a shitstorm and gave CR a little too > much exposure. The CR liquidation seems to have been going at a nice > controlled rate. Now that the whole world knows, it would not be a > surprise if security issues come up. > > Basically, he should have released the video after CR had been pretty > cleared out and closed. He should have realized the consequences of > his video. > > This is why when I get into a place like this, I am very picky about > who I let it, and in no way allow videos to be made and published on > Youtube, even on my own channel. > > -- > Will From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jul 17 13:54:45 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 11:54:45 -0700 Subject: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) In-Reply-To: <65190DAA-516A-4B0F-9296-8799D3AC7E59@gmail.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> <2aed084b-560a-4f87-c5a9-f898d487fd0b@bitsavers.org> <65190DAA-516A-4B0F-9296-8799D3AC7E59@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8642b219-3124-2de5-aeca-a75080eab879@bitsavers.org> On 7/17/19 11:44 AM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > I haven?t a clue w CR liquidation is. ^^ hint: look at the SUBJECT of the message you are pointlessly replying to From sales at elecplus.com Wed Jul 17 13:54:32 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 13:54:32 -0500 Subject: IBM documentation is San Antonio In-Reply-To: References: <087101d53cc5$d792be80$86b83b80$@com> Message-ID: <08da01d53cd1$123f08d0$36bd1a70$@com> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1h5OANKKIFOU6lEn2P-JJKE-hf3pgur0q?usp=sharing Not the best pics, but here is some of what is available in the warehouse. No, the 3278 keyboard is NOT available! I have brought almost all the mechanical keyboards home. If you see something you want, please let me know. On the documentation, it is not pick and choose. It is pretty much take all. Yes, those are 3174 controllers, a pallet of them. He can configure them to whatever you want. IBM terminals, tested with M122 keyboard, $85 plus shipping. -----Original Message----- From: William Donzelli [mailto:wdonzelli at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2019 12:41 PM To: Electronics Plus; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: IBM documentation is San Antonio He needs to take some pictures of what he has - just the covers and such. Lots of random pictures to give a good taste of what there is. So much IBM info is incredibly common. They ran one of the biggest publishing businesses in the world for a while, and it was just their own stuff! -- Will On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 1:34 PM Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > > A friend of mine is an old IBM dealer. His mother started the business, and > they have documentation going back to the beamspring days. He has agreed > that he will pack all the stuff into boxes and pack the boxes on a pallet. > These are not free; he wants an offer, since he has to pay a guy to pack, > cost of boxes, etc. There are several hundred pounds of stuff. Think of a 5 > foot wide 6 foot tall cabinet stuffed to the gills, and then multiply that > by at least 4. If interested, let me know. > > > > Cindy Croxton > > Electronics Plus > > 1613 Water Street > > Kerrville, TX 78028 > > 830-370-3239 cell > > sales at elecplus.com > > > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Jul 17 13:56:33 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 12:56:33 -0600 Subject: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) In-Reply-To: <20190717183346.GA12926@lonesome.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> <2aed084b-560a-4f87-c5a9-f898d487fd0b@bitsavers.org> <20190717161331.7FA5A4E680@mx2.ezwind.net> <20190717183346.GA12926@lonesome.com> Message-ID: On 7/17/19 12:33 PM, Mark Linimon via cctalk wrote: > There's nothing "superbly classic" around here, though. IMHO it doesn't need to be "superbly classic". Maybe it's not "ventage" per-say. (I don't know if there is a definition for "ventage" in computers. Last I knew, for automobiles, they had to be 25 years or older to be called "ventage".) > Bunch of working sun4u gear and old databooks. I'm betting that there are people that would like to have it. Look at things like IBM PCs / XTs / ATs. They were common "just old" things 5 ~ 15 years ago. Now many of those common things are gone and now people are wanting them. So, even "common" things that are (were) "just old" can have a surprising fan base. I'm on the look out for a reasonably priced (purchase and S&H independently) multi-processor Pentium Pro machine (for reasons). I hardly doubt that qualifies as "classic", much less "superbly" so. I see ebay listings of people selling of the bare CPUs for scrap in daily saved searches. Or I see old spare motherboards sans VRMs, or otherwise incomplete systems. I think there is a market for "just old" / "classic" / "superbly classic" equipment. I'll go back in my house now that I've yelled at kids on my lawn. ;-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Wed Jul 17 13:57:48 2019 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 13:57:48 -0500 Subject: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> <2aed084b-560a-4f87-c5a9-f898d487fd0b@bitsavers.org> <20190717161331.7FA5A4E680@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 7/17/2019 11:34 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > > I am doing a documentation purge (most DEC) at VCFmw this year, just > as I did a few years ago. And yes, what does not get sold or given > away gets pulped at the end of the show. My van will then be empty so > I can take your stuff. > > -- > Will > Just curious, but anything worth scanning (DEC)?? Not that I'll make it to VCFmw this year.? I'm in/near Fort Worth, TX so it's a long haul for me.? But they all are from here. -- John H. Reinhardt From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Jul 17 13:54:46 2019 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 12:54:46 -0600 Subject: DEC Purchase Specifications, particularly 23-000A9-01 In-Reply-To: References: <019401d53c78$846ce9d0$8d46bd70$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 9:43 AM Mark J. Blair via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On Jul 17, 2019, at 1:20 AM, Paul Birkel wrote: > > From some notes (origin misplaced!) you'll need a typical access time of > > 40ns from address, or 20ns from /CS: > > Thank you! That rules out using a 70ns EEPROM, then. > While the bipolar PROMs were faster, I think 70ns will work on an M9312, though I haven't verified it. The timing for reading the nibbles from the PROM to assemble into a 16-bit word is controlled by a delay line and associated logic, and it looks like the required access time is on the order of 100ns, with a cycle time on the order of 150ns. From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Jul 17 14:06:10 2019 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 14:06:10 -0500 Subject: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) In-Reply-To: <20190717161331.7FA5A4E680@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> <2aed084b-560a-4f87-c5a9-f898d487fd0b@bitsavers.org> <20190717161331.7FA5A4E680@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 11:13 AM John Foust via cctalk wrote: > I've considered taking a truckful to VCF Midwest, but apparently > I'd need to make a big scary sign that says "If you don't take it now, > it's going to recycling" because I can't imagine that I'd be able > to give away half the load. Please do! We have a thing called "The Free Pile" that is actually a magical (one-way) portal to other peoples' garages, basements and mom's basements. It can make pretty much anything except printers disappear. The last few years, we've barely had to clean anything up after the show. But yeah, you should always be prepared to take back anything that isn't gone by Sunday afternoon. But if you really have a truckload, it's another long-standing VCFMW tradition to invite folks out to the parking lot (which will be conveniently located near the loading doors this year) for sales and freebies right out of the vehicle. Bring in a few teaser items and a big sign that says "more in the truck". Or don't do any of that stuff, and just come anyway. Table registration is open soon (I have the sign-up form on my desktop as I write this). -j From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Jul 17 14:10:12 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 13:10:12 -0600 Subject: IBM documentation is San Antonio In-Reply-To: <08da01d53cd1$123f08d0$36bd1a70$@com> References: <087101d53cc5$d792be80$86b83b80$@com> <08da01d53cd1$123f08d0$36bd1a70$@com> Message-ID: <5c2c3ded-211e-6c91-48ac-d37575433924@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 7/17/19 12:54 PM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1h5OANKKIFOU6lEn2P-JJKE-hf3pgur0q?usp=sharing > Not the best pics, but here is some of what is available in the > warehouse. Thank you. They suffice. :-) > I have brought almost all the mechanical keyboards home. If you see > something you want, please let me know. Is that Focus 2001? Is it available? Is it an AT or a PS/2 cable? Does it have the Windows keys? > Yes, those are 3174 controllers, a pallet of them. He can configure > them to whatever you want. IBM terminals, tested with M122 keyboard, > $85 plus shipping. Hum.... -- Grant. . . . unix || die From ethan at 757.org Wed Jul 17 14:19:11 2019 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 15:19:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) In-Reply-To: <65190DAA-516A-4B0F-9296-8799D3AC7E59@gmail.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> <2aed084b-560a-4f87-c5a9-f898d487fd0b@bitsavers.org> <65190DAA-516A-4B0F-9296-8799D3AC7E59@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Sorry but I haven?t a clue w cr liquidation is. Check out that LGR guys video, he makes fun videos -- : Ethan O'Toole From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Jul 17 14:19:30 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 13:19:30 -0600 Subject: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) In-Reply-To: <8642b219-3124-2de5-aeca-a75080eab879@bitsavers.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> <2aed084b-560a-4f87-c5a9-f898d487fd0b@bitsavers.org> <65190DAA-516A-4B0F-9296-8799D3AC7E59@gmail.com> <8642b219-3124-2de5-aeca-a75080eab879@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 7/17/19 12:54 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > hint: look at the SUBJECT of the message you are pointlessly replying to The subject only mentions the U.S.A. If we assume the continental U.S.A., that's ~2.9 *Billion* square miles. (According to Google.) Brief searching narrows it down to somewhere in Texas. So that's down to 268 thousand square miles. (According to Google.) There may have been other location information, like drive time / distance from another known city, buried in this thread. So, I think asking for some clarification where Computer Reset is located at is a reasonable, and not pointless, thing to do. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From sales at elecplus.com Wed Jul 17 14:23:59 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 14:23:59 -0500 Subject: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> <2aed084b-560a-4f87-c5a9-f898d487fd0b@bitsavers.org> <65190DAA-516A-4B0F-9296-8799D3AC7E59@gmail.com> <8642b219-3124-2de5-aeca-a75080eab879@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <090001d53cd5$2f7931b0$8e6b9510$@com> Computer Reset is located on Skillman Dr on the east side of Dallas. I do not think they are still willing to let people scrounge. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Grant Taylor via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2019 2:20 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) On 7/17/19 12:54 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > hint: look at the SUBJECT of the message you are pointlessly replying to The subject only mentions the U.S.A. If we assume the continental U.S.A., that's ~2.9 *Billion* square miles. (According to Google.) Brief searching narrows it down to somewhere in Texas. So that's down to 268 thousand square miles. (According to Google.) There may have been other location information, like drive time / distance from another known city, buried in this thread. So, I think asking for some clarification where Computer Reset is located at is a reasonable, and not pointless, thing to do. -- Grant. . . . unix || die --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From sales at elecplus.com Wed Jul 17 14:46:29 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 14:46:29 -0500 Subject: Decision Data Keyboard for sale Message-ID: <092201d53cd8$54697ea0$fd3c7be0$@com> https://www.elecshopper.com/decision-data-keyboard.html For parts or repair. I am going to be adding quite a few keyboards in the coming week, so if you want them before the "keyboard kids" get them, please turn on your rss feeds. https://www.elecshopper.com/rss/ Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jul 17 15:16:37 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 16:16:37 -0400 Subject: IBM documentation is San Antonio In-Reply-To: <08da01d53cd1$123f08d0$36bd1a70$@com> References: <087101d53cc5$d792be80$86b83b80$@com> <08da01d53cd1$123f08d0$36bd1a70$@com> Message-ID: > https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1h5OANKKIFOU6lEn2P-JJKE-hf3pgur0q?usp=sharing > Not the best pics, but here is some of what is available in the warehouse. No, the 3278 keyboard is NOT available! > I have brought almost all the mechanical keyboards home. If you see something you want, please let me know. > > On the documentation, it is not pick and choose. It is pretty much take all. Is it possible to get a few pictures of the covers of the docs? IBM manuals tend to have very distinctive covers (thanks, Mr. Rand!), so one can get a pretty good idea of what they are. > Yes, those are 3174 controllers, a pallet of them. He can configure them to whatever you want. > IBM terminals, tested with M122 keyboard, $85 plus shipping. Where is all this stuff located? -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jul 17 15:20:21 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 16:20:21 -0400 Subject: IBM documentation is San Antonio In-Reply-To: References: <087101d53cc5$d792be80$86b83b80$@com> <08da01d53cd1$123f08d0$36bd1a70$@com> Message-ID: > Where is all this stuff located? Duh, just realized San Antonio. I really want those wire documentation cards. I need more of them. -- Will From pat at vax11.net Wed Jul 17 15:20:40 2019 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 16:20:40 -0400 Subject: IBM documentation is San Antonio In-Reply-To: <08da01d53cd1$123f08d0$36bd1a70$@com> References: <087101d53cc5$d792be80$86b83b80$@com> <08da01d53cd1$123f08d0$36bd1a70$@com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 2:54 PM Electronics Plus via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1h5OANKKIFOU6lEn2P-JJKE-hf3pgur0q?usp=sharing > Not the best pics, but here is some of what is available in the warehouse. > No, the 3278 keyboard is NOT available! > I have brought almost all the mechanical keyboards home. If you see > something you want, please let me know. > > On the documentation, it is not pick and choose. It is pretty much take > all. > > Yes, those are 3174 controllers, a pallet of them. He can configure them > to whatever you want. > IBM terminals, tested with M122 keyboard, $85 plus shipping. > > I see a pallet of IBM "controllers" of some sort, but they don't look like any model of 3174 or 3274 that I've seen. Anyone have a clue what they are exactly? Pat From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Wed Jul 17 15:27:03 2019 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 13:27:03 -0700 Subject: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) In-Reply-To: <8BDE69BC-2189-4776-AD00-7793C60F0EB3@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> <2aed084b-560a-4f87-c5a9-f898d487fd0b@bitsavers.org> <8BDE69BC-2189-4776-AD00-7793C60F0EB3@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: <68E71C1F-20B7-414D-9D98-D08CAA79C5E0@eschatologist.net> On Jul 17, 2019, at 9:39 AM, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk wrote: > This. People on the internet are insane. I have gotten literal death threats for refusing to sell keyboards. People threatening to find my home address and do things about my ?hoarding?. I should never have said a goddamn word on the internet. I regret ever releasing anything open source. For every one person who wants to contribute there are a dozen who just want to complain - or worse. I want to do my part in turning the tide and say that I have a serious degree of appreciation for all the stuff that you?ve personally done for Lisp Machine preservation. Meroko and LambdaDelta are OUTSTANDING work and are a major contribution to the field. (Also, the way Meroko simulates every individual bus cycle is really something!) > I?m so very tired of being screamed at. I almost want to just dump it all and walk away. This is not what I signed up for. I hope the people who scream at you are the ones who walk away instead. They don?t deserve you or your awesome work. -- Chris From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 17 15:29:49 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 16:29:49 -0400 Subject: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> <2aed084b-560a-4f87-c5a9-f898d487fd0b@bitsavers.org> <20190717161331.7FA5A4E680@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 3:06 PM Jason T via cctalk wrote: > Please do! We have a thing called "The Free Pile" that is actually a > magical (one-way) portal to other peoples' garages, basements and > mom's basements. It can make pretty much anything except printers > disappear. Not strictly true - I have taken two CBM printers off the free pile in the past 6 years. > The last few years, we've barely had to clean anything up > after the show. That is definitely true. Stuff on the Free Pile definitely gets rehomed. > Or don't do any of that stuff, and just come anyway. Table > registration is open soon (I have the sign-up form on my desktop as I > write this). Yay! -ethan From sales at elecplus.com Wed Jul 17 15:49:06 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 15:49:06 -0500 Subject: IBM documentation is San Antonio In-Reply-To: References: <087101d53cc5$d792be80$86b83b80$@com> <08da01d53cd1$123f08d0$36bd1a70$@com> Message-ID: <098a01d53ce1$139d1ef0$3ad75cd0$@com> From: Patrick Finnegan [mailto:pat at vax11.net] Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2019 3:21 PM To: Electronics Plus; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: IBM documentation is San Antonio On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 2:54 PM Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1h5OANKKIFOU6lEn2P-JJKE-hf3pgur0q?usp=sharing Not the best pics, but here is some of what is available in the warehouse. No, the 3278 keyboard is NOT available! I have brought almost all the mechanical keyboards home. If you see something you want, please let me know. On the documentation, it is not pick and choose. It is pretty much take all. Yes, those are 3174 controllers, a pallet of them. He can configure them to whatever you want. IBM terminals, tested with M122 keyboard, $85 plus shipping. I see a pallet of IBM "controllers" of some sort, but they don't look like any model of 3174 or 3274 that I've seen. Anyone have a clue what they are exactly? Pat Most are 3174-1R. There is a 3174-1L, but it is not complete. Those might also be 4702-003 IBM banking controllers for the 4700 series terminals (and 4704 keyboards). Cindy --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Jul 17 16:20:42 2019 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 16:20:42 -0500 Subject: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> <2aed084b-560a-4f87-c5a9-f898d487fd0b@bitsavers.org> <20190717161331.7FA5A4E680@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 3:30 PM Ethan Dicks wrote: > Not strictly true - I have taken two CBM printers off the free pile in > the past 6 years. Also guilty. It had an IEEE PET interface, what was I supposed to do?? From sales at elecplus.com Wed Jul 17 16:38:50 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 16:38:50 -0500 Subject: TI99/4A computers, in original boxes Message-ID: <09af01d53ce8$06035aa0$120a0fe0$@com> https://www.elecshopper.com/texas-instruments-ti-994a-computer-in-box-black- and-silver.html Only 4 of these on hand. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From sales at elecplus.com Wed Jul 17 16:41:58 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 16:41:58 -0500 Subject: TI99/4A computers, in original boxes In-Reply-To: <09af01d53ce8$06035aa0$120a0fe0$@com> References: <09af01d53ce8$06035aa0$120a0fe0$@com> Message-ID: <09ba01d53ce8$762c6d80$62854880$@com> Let's try that again with a shorter URL! https://bit.ly/2JDLGeM Cindy -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Electronics Plus via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2019 4:39 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: TI99/4A computers, in original boxes https://www.elecshopper.com/texas-instruments-ti-994a-computer-in-box-black- and-silver.html Only 4 of these on hand. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Wed Jul 17 17:16:09 2019 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 15:16:09 -0700 Subject: "Vintage" Printers WAS RE: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> <2aed084b-560a-4f87-c5a9-f898d487fd0b@bitsavers.org> <20190717161331.7FA5A4E680@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <002001d53ced$3cbaf9e0$b630eda0$@net> > Please do! We have a thing called "The Free Pile" that is actually a > magical (one-way) portal to other peoples' garages, basements and > mom's basements. It can make pretty much anything except printers > disappear. The last few years, we've barely had to clean anything up Depends on the printer. I am constantly "rescuing" (i.e. picking up for free) printers off the side of the road to fix up for my own personal use. If someone has a clean working or just very clean Compaq Pagemarq 20 I am happy to take it off your hand... -Ali From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Wed Jul 17 17:31:26 2019 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 18:31:26 -0400 Subject: DEC Purchase Specifications, particularly 23-000A9-01 In-Reply-To: References: <019401d53c78$846ce9d0$8d46bd70$@gmail.com> Message-ID: https://datasheetspdf.com/pdf-file/541962/AMD/AM27S13/1 Listed as a 50NS part 27S32 is listed at 70NS part. On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 2:59 PM Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 9:43 AM Mark J. Blair via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Jul 17, 2019, at 1:20 AM, Paul Birkel wrote: > > > From some notes (origin misplaced!) you'll need a typical access time of > > > 40ns from address, or 20ns from /CS: > > > > Thank you! That rules out using a 70ns EEPROM, then. > > > > While the bipolar PROMs were faster, I think 70ns will work on an M9312, > though I haven't verified it. The timing for reading the nibbles from the > PROM to assemble into a 16-bit word is controlled by a delay line and > associated logic, and it looks like the required access time is on the > order of 100ns, with a cycle time on the order of 150ns. From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Jul 17 17:56:59 2019 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 16:56:59 -0600 Subject: DEC Purchase Specifications, particularly 23-000A9-01 In-Reply-To: References: <019401d53c78$846ce9d0$8d46bd70$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 4:31 PM Bob Smith wrote: > https://datasheetspdf.com/pdf-file/541962/AMD/AM27S13/1 > Listed as a 50NS part > 27S32 is listed at 70NS part. > 70ns is the mil temp range rating for the 27S32; the commercial spec is 55 ns. 70ns parts would probably work fine in an M9312, as would any bipolar PROM with the same memory organization and pinout. I expect that 70ns doesn't meed the DEC purchase specification for 23-000A9-01, but unless we turn up a copy of the actual purchase specification, we won't really know. It seems likely that the purchase specification would have required 55ns, as that was a very common "slow" speed grade for bipolar PROMs. Almost all bipolar PROM vendors offered at least one faster speed grade, but they cost more so DEC would only have specified that for designs that needed it, and it would have had a different purchase specification, rather than the common 23-000A9-01. From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Jul 17 18:02:36 2019 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 16:02:36 -0700 Subject: DEC Purchase Specifications, particularly 23-000A9-01 In-Reply-To: References: <019401d53c78$846ce9d0$8d46bd70$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <41461E21-7960-49D1-A657-9C7A59A8F845@nf6x.net> At 70ns, I can make the design pretty simple by using an EEPROM. I did some trial synthesis targeting a Lattice MachXO2 part, and I think I could get the speed down into the 20ns range that way, at the cost of a more complex board design and needing to use Lattice's synthesis tool to prepare programming data. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Jul 17 18:15:51 2019 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 16:15:51 -0700 Subject: DEC Purchase Specifications, particularly 23-000A9-01 In-Reply-To: References: <019401d53c78$846ce9d0$8d46bd70$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7C89C968-7350-4976-A0B1-1AC059D50CE3@nf6x.net> > On Jul 17, 2019, at 3:56 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > > I expect that 70ns doesn't meed the DEC purchase specification for > 23-000A9-01, but unless we turn up a copy of the actual purchase > specification, we won't really know. It seems likely that the purchase > specification would have required 55ns, as that was a very common "slow" > speed grade for bipolar PROMs. Also, while bootstrap PROMs may not necessarily need anything faster than 70ns (I seem to recall seeing a comment in the M9301 docs about 70ns being the minimum speed, but I may have made that up), faster PROMs may have been needed in other places where they were used as logic gates. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From steven at malikoff.com Wed Jul 17 19:03:24 2019 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 00:03:24 -0000 Subject: AGC software bloat 'what if' musing Message-ID: <7b8b48dbdf8dc84cea413493da9ae4c8.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> It's well documented that in 1967 or so the AGC code was bloated (amongst other problems) and looked like it was not going to be ready in time for the landings, so much so that NASA sent in Bill Tindall to MIT to kick heads. Could they perhaps have given the under-pressure programmers some breathing space - a contingency - by carrying another set of ropes with the excess (return mission) code on them, whilst still working on the all-in-one set? That is, fly to the moon with everything required up to P65 etc then once on the surface, exchange the rope modules for the return software and throw the first rope set out onto the surface to save weight. Power cycling the AGC in flight was possible and even done later on Apollo 13 and surely they would have done this in simulations. And they could presumably have left the IMU running and aligned, as sufficient power was available? Steve From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jul 17 20:12:11 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 18:12:11 -0700 Subject: Simulators for NCR Century series computers In-Reply-To: <007501d53c36$65ab3fc0$3101bf40$@com> References: <007501d53c36$65ab3fc0$3101bf40$@com> Message-ID: On 7/16/19 5:27 PM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote: > Is anyone aware of a simulator for the NCR Century series computers? I'm not even aware of any surviving Century software, much less an emulator for the machine. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Jul 17 21:49:54 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 20:49:54 -0600 Subject: WordPerfect 5.1+ for VMS Message-ID: <82bd40fd-7225-4ecd-4b70-40d128e64b0f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Hi, This crossed my radar earlier today. I figured that someone on the CCTalk mailing list might be interested in it. Link - Vintage 1995 Novell WordPerfect 5.1+ for VMS TK50 Tape Digital DEC VAX - https://www.ebay.com/itm/133114102939 Buy It Now for $49.95 ($14.95 S&H) or Make an Offer. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From useddec at gmail.com Wed Jul 17 21:54:18 2019 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 21:54:18 -0500 Subject: VCFMW Message-ID: If anyone from the UK is coming over to VCFMW and would be willing to bring me some nice crisp uncirculated currency I will be happy to trade you for US currency or DEC computer items. I can make up a list over the next few days. I don't know when the new 50 is coming out, and I'm also interested in the Steven Hawkins coin, coins from the isles, pre-decimal and other foreign coins. Please feel free to contact me off list. Thanks, Paul From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Jul 17 21:54:37 2019 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 21:54:37 -0500 Subject: WordPerfect 5.1+ for VMS In-Reply-To: <82bd40fd-7225-4ecd-4b70-40d128e64b0f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <82bd40fd-7225-4ecd-4b70-40d128e64b0f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 21:50 Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Hi, > > This crossed my radar earlier today. I figured that someone on the > CCTalk mailing list might be interested in it. > > Link - Vintage 1995 Novell WordPerfect 5.1+ for VMS TK50 Tape Digital > DEC VAX > - https://www.ebay.com/itm/133114102939 I have a .tap image of WP 4.2 and 5.0 for VMS that I made from my own tape years ago. The image has been successfully mounted but IIRC the software looks for a license key that I've never found. I do not believe it is a PAK as with other VMS packages. I can provide the image on request but I don't want a post it publicly. J From useddec at gmail.com Wed Jul 17 22:03:48 2019 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 22:03:48 -0500 Subject: VCFMW drop offs and visits Message-ID: If anyone going to VCFMW needs any (mosyly) DEC items dropped off there please let me know so I can plan ahead. Trades are sometimes workable for other DEC equipment, even more so for US and foreign coins and currency. I plan on arriving Friday afternoon and returning Saturday night. If anyone wants to stop by and look around, please let me know of tentative plans so I can plan accordingly and not have too many people tripping over each other. Please contact me off list. Thanks, Paul From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 17 22:23:32 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 23:23:32 -0400 Subject: WordPerfect 5.1+ for VMS In-Reply-To: References: <82bd40fd-7225-4ecd-4b70-40d128e64b0f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 10:54 PM Jason T via cctalk wrote: > I have a .tap image of WP 4.2 and 5.0 for VMS that I made from my own tape > years ago. The image has been successfully mounted but IIRC the software > looks for a license key that I've never found. I do not believe it is a PAK > as with other VMS packages. I worked for a guy in 1988 that was a WP for VMS reseller. I remember one particular sale of 10-12 seat licenses for which the commission made his entire year. Unfortunately I have no information on how the licensing worked. There was, IIRC, a bit of paper in the box with the key information on it but I have no idea how it worked. -ethan From guykd at optusnet.com.au Wed Jul 17 23:37:02 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 14:37:02 +1000 Subject: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) In-Reply-To: <2aed084b-560a-4f87-c5a9-f898d487fd0b@bitsavers.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190718143702.00dd6da8@mail.optusnet.com.au> My net service dropped out yesterday, hence delayed reply. I did NOT expect that thread to take off. At 10:14 PM 16/07/2019 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: >> Exploring a MASSIVE Retro Computer Warehouse! > >old news, dredged up again because of a youtube jackass Ah yes, now I see there was exactly one previous mention a month ago on 2019-06-12 https://marc.info/?l=classiccmp&m=156035869326953&w=2 or http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2019-June/048024.html Were there other discussions perhaps, that didn't mention the shop name? Anyway maybe some may like to see the jackass's video of the huge collection, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvM82T3C2Ik or perhaps go buy stuff to help out the invalid owners? Btw Al did you have any sources for this? >And YOU didn't live through Crisis Computer's downsizing seeing literally a large >warehouse of HP hardware getting scrapped. >The fact that anyone 15+ years after that happened is still in business is a wonder in itself. So that was 15 years ago? Are there any photos online? Just curious. Btw, I have at least three times seen large warehouses full of tech treasure destroyed. It's the standard routine in Australia. Literally. Because for a long time the government charged import duty on everything brought into the country. And there was a regulation that in many cases that duty could be recovered by the importer, if they had the equipment landfilled in the presence of a tax inspector. Ha ha, I spent one Christmas eve stripping the laser optics and electronics out of about 20 laser disk players, that a video arcade company I did contract software for, had imported. Then they discovered the players were unsuitable. So, to the tip with them, to be buried, to recover the tax. Except my employers were informal enough to think that was a waste, and ask me if I wanted to 'modify' the players first. I had one evening to do it. Fortunately also a stack of bricks, to make the units convincingly heavy after gutting them. That tax insanity is now gone. Leaving the depreciation, insurance and tradein insanities in operation. Depreciation: Company book keepers depreciate the value of capital investments, over the operating life of the equipment. They get a yearly tax break for this 'expense.' Once the equipment reaches end of depreciation period, theoretically it is worth zero. At that point the company will have it destroyed. Because to sell it would imply it still has value, and that would cast the bookkeeping proceedures (and the tax benefits) into doubt (according to the accountants.) And they don't want to just give it away, because there are safety and liability issues with that. Insurance: Typically when equipment is damaged and an insurance claim made, the equipment gets destroyed. Because the insurance companies are afraid they might get scammed. So they insist on proof of destruction. Tradein: Because Australia is a small tech-market and virtually everything is imported, companies like HP, Tektronix DEC, etc (their local distributors) hated to see their products get loose into the second hand market. So they offered very significant tradein deals on old stuff. Which they would then generally destroy. Unless their staff made off with it first. For a while I worked around the corner from the HP Sydney office. Dropped in and asked if they had any 2nd hand gear for sale. The engineer who spoke with me in the front office made a show of explaining that all tradeins were destroyed. He was making sure his superiors heard him toeing the company line. Later he offered me a few items via his car boot. All really old, valve stuff, though I did buy a couple. http://everist.org/NobLog/20140324_HP_relics.htm This is why Australia is a desert in regards second hand computing and test equipment. Guy From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Jul 18 00:26:34 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 22:26:34 -0700 Subject: WordPerfect 5.1+ for VMS In-Reply-To: References: <82bd40fd-7225-4ecd-4b70-40d128e64b0f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <874BFC64-1E79-4334-A5F9-08BA34A92470@avanthar.com> > On Jul 17, 2019, at 7:54 PM, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 21:50 Grant Taylor via cctalk > wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> This crossed my radar earlier today. I figured that someone on the >> CCTalk mailing list might be interested in it. >> >> Link - Vintage 1995 Novell WordPerfect 5.1+ for VMS TK50 Tape Digital >> DEC VAX >> - https://www.ebay.com/itm/133114102939 > > > I have a .tap image of WP 4.2 and 5.0 for VMS that I made from my own tape > years ago. The image has been successfully mounted but IIRC the software > looks for a license key that I've never found. I do not believe it is a PAK > as with other VMS packages. I can provide the image on request but I don't > want a post it publicly. > > J Without a proper license key, I think the software is useless. It uses a XXXX-XXXX-XXXX alpha-numeric Checksum. I think it?s tied in some way to the distribution ID. They use their own licensing mechanism. I just checked, I have a copy of the v5.0 ?WordPerfect Workbook for VAX/VMS Systems?, I?m pretty sure I had more than just that book, but I?m not sure if I still do. The other book(s) would likely give info on installation and licensing. On a related note, was there ever a copy of dBase III or dBase IV for VAX/VMS? I know there was a version of Lotus 1-2-3. Zane From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Jul 18 00:43:33 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 06:43:33 +0100 Subject: WordPerfect 5.1+ for VMS In-Reply-To: References: <82bd40fd-7225-4ecd-4b70-40d128e64b0f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <017d01d53d2b$bd58f730$380ae590$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks via > cctalk > Sent: 18 July 2019 04:24 > To: Jason T ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Subject: Re: WordPerfect 5.1+ for VMS > > On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 10:54 PM Jason T via cctalk > wrote: > > I have a .tap image of WP 4.2 and 5.0 for VMS that I made from my own > > tape years ago. The image has been successfully mounted but IIRC the > > software looks for a license key that I've never found. I do not > > believe it is a PAK as with other VMS packages. > > I worked for a guy in 1988 that was a WP for VMS reseller. I remember one > particular sale of 10-12 seat licenses for which the commission made his > entire year. Unfortunately I have no information on how the licensing > worked. There was, IIRC, a bit of paper in the box with the key information > on it but I have no idea how it worked. > > -ethan I think even if you have the key it fails today. There was a thread recently on comp.os.vms Saying it expires after 9999 days and theirs had just expired... http://www.novabbs.com/index.php?t=msg&th=292017&start=0& Dave From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu Jul 18 02:12:35 2019 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 08:12:35 +0100 Subject: WordPerfect 5.1+ for VMS In-Reply-To: <017d01d53d2b$bd58f730$380ae590$@gmail.com> References: <82bd40fd-7225-4ecd-4b70-40d128e64b0f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <017d01d53d2b$bd58f730$380ae590$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 18/07/2019 06:43, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: >> > I think even if you have the key it fails today. There was a thread recently on comp.os.vms > > Saying it expires after 9999 days and theirs had just expired... > > http://www.novabbs.com/index.php?t=msg&th=292017&start=0& > > Dave > > I've no idea where it came from but I do have a licence PAK for WordPerfect: 7-NOV-1991 to 2011. You could just run with a date in the past ... seems somehow apropriate :-) Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org Thu Jul 18 03:40:26 2019 From: ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org (Andrew Luke Nesbit) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 09:40:26 +0100 Subject: Decision Data Keyboard for sale In-Reply-To: <092201d53cd8$54697ea0$fd3c7be0$@com> References: <092201d53cd8$54697ea0$fd3c7be0$@com> Message-ID: <8f645fa0-8649-22e2-1a57-80403a091d86@andrewnesbit.org> On 17/07/2019 20:46, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > https://www.elecshopper.com/decision-data-keyboard.html > > For parts or repair. Looks great. I'd love to purchase this to restore to its former glory in my copious free time. > I am going to be adding quite a few keyboards in the coming week, so if you > want them before the "keyboard kids" get them, please turn on your rss > feeds. > > https://www.elecshopper.com/rss/ Thanks for the heads up Cindy. Does anybody have recommendations for RSS readers? I've been meaning to figure it out for a long because there are so many situations where RSS is very useful. Andrew -- OpenPGP key: EB28 0338 28B7 19DA DAB0 B193 D21D 996E 883B E5B9 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jul 18 06:26:36 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 13:26:36 +0200 Subject: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190718143702.00dd6da8@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> <2aed084b-560a-4f87-c5a9-f898d487fd0b@bitsavers.org> <3.0.6.32.20190718143702.00dd6da8@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 at 06:37, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > > At 10:14 PM 16/07/2019 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > >> Exploring a MASSIVE Retro Computer Warehouse! > > > >old news, dredged up again because of a youtube jackass > > > Ah yes, now I see there was exactly one previous mention a month ago on 2019-06-12 > https://marc.info/?l=classiccmp&m=156035869326953&w=2 > or > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2019-June/048024.html Yep. That was me. It was intentional. This is a sort of rescue operation -- both trying to rescue some vintage kit for the hobbyist community, _and_ trying to raise xsome money for the care of the owner and his wife. The family don't know anything about their dad's business or retrocomputing and we just going to send it all to recycling, making pennies on the ton and not raising enough to really help. They had no idea that this was for many people a treasure-trove and could realise enough money to keep the business owner and his wife in comfort, financial safety and (this being the USA) healthcare for whatever remaining lifespan they've got. I've done what I can to promote it on FB in ? dozen retrocomputing groups, on Twitter, and on ClassicCmp. This is good stuff, organised by volunteers, trying to save a lot of kit from recycling and a family from penury. I don't like Youtube much. I am not interested in retrogaming. I don't follow podcasts or videos. They take too long. I'm a speedreader and a writer and the vague unstructured blethering on of most Youtubers and podcasters drives me to distraction. This LGR guy took 15 min to get to the point. Any point. And his channel doesn't even explain what "LGR" stands for. Can't stand such stuff. But this is great coverage and I am glad it's happened. > Were there other discussions perhaps, that didn't mention the shop name? I think it's come up, yes. Bear in mind though that retrocomputing is a *huge* and growing hobby these days. It's big, lively, international, and fun. I've been on ClassicCmp for about 15-20 years now, I think, and I've watched it go from a niche to a big thing. This delights me. More news is good news. I don't like keyboard collectors who butcher machines. I don't see much point in gutting PCs to put Raspberry Pis or PC motherboards in them. This guy's into stuff I consider as plastic junk like eMachines, but again, if it keeps it out of recycling, that's good. But that's what some people do, so hey, whatever. It all keeps the field ticking over. With any luck, some Youtubers will volunteer and help out. That's good too. So I don't understand the complaint, here, really. Isn't it just what the kids call "gatekeeping?" -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jul 18 06:42:51 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 13:42:51 +0200 Subject: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> <2aed084b-560a-4f87-c5a9-f898d487fd0b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Jul 2019 at 15:00, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > > Well, I think he kind of created a shitstorm and gave CR a little too > much exposure. The CR liquidation seems to have been going at a nice > controlled rate. Now that the whole world knows, it would not be a > surprise if security issues come up. > > Basically, he should have released the video after CR had been pretty > cleared out and closed. He should have realized the consequences of > his video. > > This is why when I get into a place like this, I am very picky about > who I let it, and in no way allow videos to be made and published on > Youtube, even on my own channel. I've been trying to get exposure for CR for a couple of months now. I've covered why to Guy D. in another reply. I am on another continent, with a small apartment already too full of old computers, and a baby due in a couple of months. I have never been there, can't get there, and almost certainly never will. But I've been talking to Justin about this, reading the delighted stories of people who've been mining there, and I'm delighted by this coverage. I will be re-sharing this video. My impression is that you don't grasp the size of the place and the amount of stuff. This is great coverage. Quite gatekeeping. This is not a free-for-all, but it's trying to make some money for the owner in his dotage. Exposure is good. Coverage is good. 10,000 collectors could visit this place and they won't empty it. 100,000 might begin to. What's your beef? -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jul 18 06:53:45 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 07:53:45 -0400 Subject: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> <2aed084b-560a-4f87-c5a9-f898d487fd0b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > My impression is that you don't grasp the size of the place and the > amount of stuff. This is great coverage. Cleanouts like this are a big part of my business. CR is by no means small, but is also not that big. The last big place I was in - well, the entire CR space would have been part of one of the floors of the building. One of six floors and basement. And some outbuildings. That was Radio Research (now gone - and it was not vintage computers, but other vintage tech). > What's your beef? Too much exposure can bring out the creeps and crooks. -- Will From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jul 18 07:03:54 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 14:03:54 +0200 Subject: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> <2aed084b-560a-4f87-c5a9-f898d487fd0b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 at 13:52, William Donzelli wrote: > > Cleanouts like this are a big part of my business. CR is by no means > small, but is also not that big. The last big place I was in - well, > the entire CR space would have been part of one of the floors of the > building. One of six floors and basement. And some outbuildings. Well, good for you. I'm on another continent and this is I think the biggest single retrocomputing salvage operation I've ever heard of in my life. *And* it's in a good cause. My impression is that Jason & his team have a pretty good idea what they're doing and they've already banned some scalpers. So what's the problem? Is there anything in there even _worth_ stealing that non-specialists would recognise? >That > was Radio Research (now gone - and it was not vintage computers, but > other vintage tech). Well there you go then. That would have been of no interest to me. The LGR guy seemed really happy to have stuff I'd consider mundane and boring: PC DOS 4, OS/2 1.0 and 2.0, Windows 3, WfWg 3.11. I have all of those except OS/2 1.0 and that's only because I don't really want it. Mine are leftovers from when they were new; I worked with the sutff. To Clint here it's an exciting glimpse of history. > > What's your beef? > > Too much exposure can bring out the creeps and crooks. They're around anyway. It happens. I suspect if a ram-raider filled a pantechnicon there and drove off, it wouldn't make a 0.1% dent. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From ethan at 757.org Thu Jul 18 07:41:52 2019 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 08:41:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> <2aed084b-560a-4f87-c5a9-f898d487fd0b@bitsavers.org> <3.0.6.32.20190718143702.00dd6da8@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: > This LGR guy took 15 min to get to the point. Any point. And his > channel doesn't even explain what "LGR" stands for. LGR is short for Lazy Game Reviews. His channel used to be reviews of old MS-DOS games or something. Random dude in NC, and slowly a following built of his videos. A co-worker of mine some 5 years ago would watch those and Computer Chronicles, so he was the first place I heard about LGR videos. He produces two videos a week I think. As far as I know, it's his livelyhood as the youtube following built that big. A friend actually went thrifting with him a few weeks ago. The same friend I believe is headed to TX to visit the Reset place in a week or two -- mainly looking for stuff for his museum which is tied to another guys museum from this community. > Bear in mind though that retrocomputing is a *huge* and growing hobby > these days. It's big, lively, international, and fun. > I've been on ClassicCmp for about 15-20 years now, I think, and I've > watched it go from a niche to a big thing. This delights me. More news > is good news. Agreed! It's cool that younger generation is finding some of the older stuff interesting. I would have thought it would have ended at emulation. The fact that people are doing 386 and 486 computer builds now is strange to me, I'm not going to lie. But we all have our funky hobbies. > I don't like keyboard collectors who butcher machines. I don't see > much point in gutting PCs to put Raspberry Pis or PC motherboards in > them. I think I recently sold a luggable computer on eBay to one of them. It worked 100% when I shipped it but arrived "broken." I'm still wondering if the guy damaged the CPU card (PICMG) in order to refund once he realized the keyboard was something he wasn't after. Cost me $100+ in shipping all lost. -- : Ethan O'Toole From ethan at 757.org Thu Jul 18 07:43:38 2019 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 08:43:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Looking for Pangolin QuadMod cards (Amiga) Message-ID: Just a random one... I'm looking for old Zorro II boards made by a company called Pangolin. It's the QuadMod16 and QuadMod8 which are used with the Amiga. If a QuadMod2000 or QuadMod32 showed up I might have slight interest in that as well. These are laser projector controllers for light show use. I have a QM16 now but it might be a "slave" card and the software can't see it. -- : Ethan O'Toole From sales at elecplus.com Thu Jul 18 08:07:02 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 08:07:02 -0500 Subject: Setting up RSS feeds Message-ID: <1be30b63-c625-cfaf-efae-bf6a73c56810@elecplus.com> If you have Thunderbird, go to Blogs and News Feeds. Click on the RSS icon, and enter the info for each site you want to follow. If you have Outlook, the process is very similar. If you have Chrome, you can use an add-on, such as https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/rss-feed-reader/pnjaodmkngahhkoihejjehlcdlnohgmp?hl=en If you have Firefox, see this areticle https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/collections/4757633/feed-readers/ Cindy From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jul 18 10:40:02 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 17:40:02 +0200 Subject: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> <2aed084b-560a-4f87-c5a9-f898d487fd0b@bitsavers.org> <3.0.6.32.20190718143702.00dd6da8@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jul 2019 at 14:41, Ethan O'Toole wrote: > > > This LGR guy took 15 min to get to the point. Any point. And his > > channel doesn't even explain what "LGR" stands for. > > LGR is short for Lazy Game Reviews. His channel used to be reviews of old > MS-DOS games or something. Random dude in NC, and slowly a following built > of his videos. Yup, I found that by looking at his other profiles, but it's an example of the sort of attention to detail I find typical in video-bloggers. Which is why I don't follow any. > Agreed! It's cool that younger generation is finding some of the older > stuff interesting. I would have thought it would have ended at emulation. > The fact that people are doing 386 and 486 computer builds now is strange > to me, I'm not going to lie. But we all have our funky hobbies. Agreed on all counts. > I think I recently sold a luggable computer on eBay to one of them. It > worked 100% when I shipped it but arrived "broken." I'm still wondering > if the guy damaged the CPU card (PICMG) in order to refund once he > realized the keyboard was something he wasn't after. Cost me $100+ in > shipping all lost. :-( -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 18 10:42:36 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:42:36 -0400 Subject: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> <2aed084b-560a-4f87-c5a9-f898d487fd0b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 1:25 AM William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > Oh, I did not mention how some of those misfits can throw their own > wrenches in the works. Piss one of them off and he calls the Fire > Marshall. Some dick did that when I was cleaning out Compass so many > years ago (if you remember the Compass Teletype cleanout in NJ, you > have been on this list too long!), and delayed things for a couple of > weeks. I definitely remember the Compass Teletype cleanout. I've been restoring Model 15s for a couple of years now (not mine - with a friend who's a re-enactor) and there are some parts I'm wishing I had now. -ethan From nf6x at nf6x.net Thu Jul 18 13:38:28 2019 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:38:28 -0700 Subject: WordPerfect 5.1+ for VMS In-Reply-To: <017d01d53d2b$bd58f730$380ae590$@gmail.com> References: <82bd40fd-7225-4ecd-4b70-40d128e64b0f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <017d01d53d2b$bd58f730$380ae590$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9C27E321-C70B-46C3-9E18-D4F6C70C17E7@nf6x.net> > On Jul 17, 2019, at 10:43 PM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > I think even if you have the key it fails today. There was a thread recently on comp.os.vms > > Saying it expires after 9999 days and theirs had just expired... Oh, now that's just obnoxious. Requiring a license refresh every 27 years? It's ransomware, I say! -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From nw.johnson at ieee.org Thu Jul 18 13:50:04 2019 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 14:50:04 -0400 Subject: WordPerfect 5.1+ for VMS In-Reply-To: <9C27E321-C70B-46C3-9E18-D4F6C70C17E7@nf6x.net> References: <82bd40fd-7225-4ecd-4b70-40d128e64b0f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <017d01d53d2b$bd58f730$380ae590$@gmail.com> <9C27E321-C70B-46C3-9E18-D4F6C70C17E7@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <4833596d-6e04-026b-d39f-d3c06f21a582@ieee.org> I have never like the Wordperfect people. They killed my friend's business. He had? vaxes that he rented time on, also charged a huge amount of money per seat week for WPS training. The boys from Utah released Wordperrect for the VAX and put him out of business! (OK the PCs helped too , but the training was his last source of income) cheers,m Nigel On 18/07/2019 14:38, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > >> On Jul 17, 2019, at 10:43 PM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: >> I think even if you have the key it fails today. There was a thread recently on comp.os.vms >> >> Saying it expires after 9999 days and theirs had just expired... > Oh, now that's just obnoxious. Requiring a license refresh every 27 years? It's ransomware, I say! > > -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jul 18 14:27:47 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 15:27:47 -0400 Subject: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> <2aed084b-560a-4f87-c5a9-f898d487fd0b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > Well, good for you. Was this not aimed at me? "My impression is that you don't grasp the size of the place and the amount of stuff." I do. Know you know - but lose the attitude, please. > So what's the problem? Is there anything in there even _worth_ > stealing that non-specialists would recognise? Scrap. Good old-timey pre-2000 ewaste. > They're around anyway. It happens. It happens more when the goods are advertised - like a Youtube video. I bet a lot of gold bugs saw the LGR video in their suggestion feed that otherwise would not know about it. > I suspect if a ram-raider filled a pantechnicon there and drove off, > it wouldn't make a 0.1% dent. Oh boy...you might not know how these guys can work. Go back and read one of my posts in this thread. 10 guys, 12 hours, every bit of scrap gone... Anyway, I'm out. I have things to do, like deal with my own pile of stuff. -- Will From bob at jfcl.com Thu Jul 18 13:15:38 2019 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:15:38 -0700 Subject: Simulators for NCR Century series computers In-Reply-To: References: <007501d53c36$65ab3fc0$3101bf40$@com> Message-ID: <00d701d53d94$cd9759c0$68c60d40$@com> On 7/17/19 6:12 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I'm not even aware of any surviving Century software That was to be my next question. I'd write my own simulator if I had something to run on it. A Century 50 and a DECSYSTEM-10 are tied for the first computer I ever got to use, sometime back in the mid-70s. I still have happy memories of programming in Neat/3 and punching up decks of cards for the NCR. Bob From sales at elecplus.com Thu Jul 18 15:05:55 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 15:05:55 -0500 Subject: Another warehouse closing Message-ID: <012801d53da4$35c23ab0$a146b010$@com> https://www.facebook.com/KemnerEnterprises/ Located in Pottstown, PA. Still open Fri afternoons and Saturdays. Cindy Croxton --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From ethan at 757.org Thu Jul 18 15:30:46 2019 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 16:30:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Another warehouse closing In-Reply-To: <012801d53da4$35c23ab0$a146b010$@com> References: <012801d53da4$35c23ab0$a146b010$@com> Message-ID: > https://www.facebook.com/KemnerEnterprises/ > Located in Pottstown, PA. Still open Fri afternoons and Saturdays. > Cindy Croxton I think my friend bought some kinda old 8080 computer there a few weeks ago during the Too Many Games event in Philly. Not an Altair or IMSAI, CRT with the boards all in one unit IIRC. - Ethan -- : Ethan O'Toole From imp at bsdimp.com Thu Jul 18 16:50:02 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 15:50:02 -0600 Subject: Scanning question Message-ID: So, I have a bunch of old DEC Rainbow docs that aren't online. I also have a snapscan scanner that I use for bills and such. There's four kinds of docs, and I'm looking for advice: (1) wire-ring bounded. What's the best way to scan these? The easiest is to just clip the wire binding and drop it in the scanner. But then what? (2) Folded with staples. These are booklet format, with stables in the middle. I could easily remove the staple and scan. but how do I replace the staple? (3) Gum bound. These books are bound with some kind of gum / goo on the spine. Some of these are so old I could just remove it and have no real degradation of the state. Others have spines that are still in good shape. (4) Three ring binder. This is easy: remove, scan, replace. Right? Finally, how do I get the resulting scans into bigkeeper? Any fancy options I should enable to make the pdfs maximally useful? Warner From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 18 17:23:46 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 15:23:46 -0700 Subject: WordPerfect 5.1+ for VMS In-Reply-To: <9C27E321-C70B-46C3-9E18-D4F6C70C17E7@nf6x.net> References: <82bd40fd-7225-4ecd-4b70-40d128e64b0f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <017d01d53d2b$bd58f730$380ae590$@gmail.com> <9C27E321-C70B-46C3-9E18-D4F6C70C17E7@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <49f4e987-4653-4db0-7cb9-3e1d7427bad2@sydex.com> On 7/18/19 11:38 AM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Jul 17, 2019, at 10:43 PM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: >> I think even if you have the key it fails today. There was a thread recently on comp.os.vms >> >> Saying it expires after 9999 days and theirs had just expired... > > Oh, now that's just obnoxious. Requiring a license refresh every 27 years? It's ransomware, I say! The least they could do is offer a version upgrade after 27 years... --Chuck From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu Jul 18 17:53:21 2019 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 23:53:21 +0100 Subject: WordPerfect 5.1+ for VMS In-Reply-To: <49f4e987-4653-4db0-7cb9-3e1d7427bad2@sydex.com> References: <82bd40fd-7225-4ecd-4b70-40d128e64b0f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <017d01d53d2b$bd58f730$380ae590$@gmail.com> <9C27E321-C70B-46C3-9E18-D4F6C70C17E7@nf6x.net> <49f4e987-4653-4db0-7cb9-3e1d7427bad2@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 18/07/2019 23:23, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 7/18/19 11:38 AM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: >> >>> On Jul 17, 2019, at 10:43 PM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: >>> I think even if you have the key it fails today. There was a thread recently on comp.os.vms >>> >>> Saying it expires after 9999 days and theirs had just expired... >> Oh, now that's just obnoxious. Requiring a license refresh every 27 years? It's ransomware, I say! > The least they could do is offer a version upgrade after 27 years... > > --Chuck > That'll be LibreOffice Writer, I assume :-) Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu Jul 18 18:06:50 2019 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 00:06:50 +0100 Subject: Scanning question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 18/07/2019 22:50, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > So, I have a bunch of old DEC Rainbow docs that aren't online. I also have > a snapscan scanner that I use for bills and such. > > There's four kinds of docs, and I'm looking for advice: > > (1) wire-ring bounded. What's the best way to scan these? The easiest is to > just clip the wire binding and drop it in the scanner. But then what? The wire-bound ones I've dealt with you can hold the doc with the back cover facing you and turn that cover over so that you are now looking at the reverse of the last but one page. Then you "open out" the wires. (This is easier if you have one of those comb binding machines that many offices have). Then rotate the wires and watch the pages gently pop out. Refitting is the reverse of removal. (Like it says in every Haynes manual). > (2) Folded with staples. These are booklet format, with stables in the > middle. I could easily remove the staple and scan. but how do I replace the > staple? Slowly and carefully, page by page. (The first hundred are the worst. The second hundred are the worst too .. :-)) > > (3) Gum bound. These books are bound with some kind of gum / goo on the > spine. Some of these are so old I could just remove it and have no real > degradation of the state. Others have spines that are still in good shape. The only bound docs that I've scanned have been ones where I had more than one copy. There are scanners that scan right up to the edge specifically so that you can scan books, but I've never had access to one. > > (4) Three ring binder. This is easy: remove, scan, replace. Right? Compared to all the others, yes, this is easy. > > Finally, how do I get the resulting scans into bigkeeper? Any fancy options > I should enable to make the pdfs maximally useful? I usually go for bi-level TIFF 600 dpi, which can then be G4 encoded. Then wrap the whole lot in a PDF. Except for photos I often went for 8-bit (grey levels). For colour I just got confused and either went for 300 dpi and sometimes also separately scanned the manual in B&W. The office I'm in now has an HP scanner that thinks JPG is the only reasonable option. JPG is awful for text (especially if you plan to OCR it later) and line drawings and schematics. I don't know what options there are on PDFs, but avoiding anything clever is probably a good idea in the long term. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 18 18:12:25 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 16:12:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Scanning question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jul 2019, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > So, I have a bunch of old DEC Rainbow docs that aren't online. I also have > a snapscan scanner that I use for bills and such. > There's four kinds of docs, and I'm looking for advice: > > (1) wire-ring bounded. What's the best way to scan these? The easiest is to > just clip the wire binding and drop it in the scanner. But then what? Although the old wire is likely to be unusable, new wire is available. There are two basic types, "spiral bound", and "wire-O" Spiral bound is a large helix. If the material is in good shape, then you can just clip the bent over section at one end and unwind it out, and thread a new helix into place. Then bend over the end at each end, so that it doesn't unwind out. Wire-O and "plastic comb"/"GBC" binding use a special (not very expensive, STARTING < $100) machine to spread the comb; insert the comb through the rectangular holes, and then let the machine release it to return to approximately circular. The GBC combs are easier to use IFF the holes are the right size and shape. Plastic comb and Wire-O will lie flat. > (2) Folded with staples. These are booklet format, with stables in the > middle. I could easily remove the staple and scan. but how do I replace the > staple? "saddle stitch" requires a deep-throat stapler. The long-reach staplers lose their needed precision alignment over time. I prefer a swivel-head stapler: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01JZ8MCEY $10.99 It's just a regular office stapler that swivels, to permit placing the staple right where you want it in the gutter of the booklet. WELL WORTH HAVING! > (3) Gum bound. These books are bound with some kind of gum / goo on the > spine. Some of these are so old I could just remove it and have no real > degradation of the state. Others have spines that are still in good shape. A variant of "perfect" binding. That's a NAME, not a valid description. It's what is used for phone books and paperback books. Many of the glues that have been used over the years, particularly in the middle of the 20th century decay over time, giving such binding a bad reputation. There are better glues. The machine melts the glue and then the stacked paper is glued, and a cover wrapped over the spine. If the binding is in good shape, and is not needed for historical artifact/provenance, a good paper shear (NOT an office swing-arm finger amputator) can cut the binding off cleanly, with a SMALL amount of loss of the gutters, and then you could re-bind. If anybody has use: I have a 4 foot long table-top hot-glue binding machine. FREE! But, I will not consider shipping it. It takes a little practice to learn to do it well. > (4) Three ring binder. This is easy: remove, scan, replace. Right? It also helps to have a paper DRILL. With a paper drill, you can "punch" clean single or three holes through a thick stack of paper. Then you can copy diamaged pages and replace them. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jul 18 18:17:39 2019 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 18:17:39 -0500 Subject: Scanning question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20190718231751.2BB394E74E@mx2.ezwind.net> At 04:50 PM 7/18/2019, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: >(1) wire-ring bounded. What's the best way to scan these? The easiest is to >just clip the wire binding and drop it in the scanner. But then what? Those are going to snag on each other, no? I'd trim the edges off. >(2) Folded with staples. These are booklet format, with stables in the >middle. I could easily remove the staple and scan. but how do I replace the >staple? Cut along the middle using a paper cutter. >(3) Gum bound. These books are bound with some kind of gum / goo on the >spine. Some of these are so old I could just remove it and have no real >degradation of the state. Others have spines that are still in good shape. Probably needs a pro paper cutter. - John From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 18 18:31:27 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 16:31:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Scanning question In-Reply-To: <20190718231751.2BB394E74E@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <20190718231751.2BB394E74E@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Jul 2019, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > At 04:50 PM 7/18/2019, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: >> (1) wire-ring bounded. What's the best way to scan these? The easiest is to >> just clip the wire binding and drop it in the scanner. But then what? > Those are going to snag on each other, no? I'd trim the edges off. >> (2) Folded with staples. These are booklet format, with stables in the >> middle. I could easily remove the staple and scan. but how do I replace the >> staple? > Cut along the middle using a paper cutter. >> (3) Gum bound. These books are bound with some kind of gum / goo on the >> spine. Some of these are so old I could just remove it and have no real >> degradation of the state. Others have spines that are still in good shape. > Probably needs a pro paper cutter. A "paper shear" https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00MWB1C2A looks like a cheap hobby version. Notice 1) the CLAMP 2) although it has a swinging arm to operate, the cutting is not done by the edge of the swinging arm (those do not give a clean cut through any thickness) If you are not going to rebind, then get a good paper shear. Some printing and binding businesses will cut the binding off fairly cheaply. If you do cut the binding off, you will lose a little of the margins/gutters, so keep that in mind before you slice it. From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Jul 18 21:26:06 2019 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 21:26:06 -0500 Subject: Scanning question In-Reply-To: References: <20190718231751.2BB394E74E@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 6:31 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > A "paper shear" > https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00MWB1C2A > looks like a cheap hobby version. I own this model, or very nearly the same one (previous iteration from Peoples Paper Cutter Factory #7). It's no 2-ton mechanic shear but it certainly does the job. Clamping down tight is essential, as is trimming your document into reasonable sections before attempting to cut. If I'm doing, say, a paperback book, I'll use a razor knife to cut the cover off (save for later color flatbed scanning), the open the book to the middle, middle pages facing up, and press down so that the binding starts to crack. Then I use the knife to split it down the middle. Repeat as necessary until you have easily trimmable sections. The screw-down paper guide on the cutter helps make sure you trim each section to same width. 600dpi bilevel TIFFs for b/w text, 300dpi or better greyscale or color jpg for covers and photo-only pages. Pages with text and photos and a judgement call. Sometimes 600dpi bilevel captures enough of the halftones so that the image is "good enough". Sometimes I'll scan those 400 or 600dpi greyscale and just deal with the larger file size (disk is cheap). De-stapled docs can be put back together with a magazine stapler. Mine is a plain old Swingline that was welded to a big metal arm. There may be fancier versions out there. I scan either directly into Acrobat (b/w pages, no editing needed) or to TIFFs and use IrfanView's batch mode to trim/align/edit/etc, then compile into Acrobat. I can't speak much to the free tools out there, but many others have entire workflows of OSS that do just fine. j From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Jul 18 21:51:45 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 20:51:45 -0600 Subject: Scanning question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5a9e8311-b3d4-323a-9a93-bc0d4a5e9213@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 7/18/19 3:50 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > So, I have a bunch of old DEC Rainbow docs that aren't online. I also > have a snapscan scanner that I use for bills and such. > > There's four kinds of docs, and I'm looking for advice: I always wanted to apply (fiber) optics to this. I wanted something that was akin to a (glass) block that I could set on the bed of a scanner that would be tall enough that I could open books 90?110? with the to be scanned side sitting on top of the raised / extended scanner bed with the book pages laying off to one side. Much like you would see if someone was reading the book while laying on their back. I don't know if anything like this exists or is even possible. I figured that it would have to be 1?2 feet tall to make room for most book and have thousands of fiber optics forming a brick. That or a similarly sized glass / crystal cube that was super clear. I figured the optics might be better as it would minimize the effect of the aperture angle. (I think that's the term that I want.) This would be quite manual and not likely to be easily automatable because of the page turning and repositioning of the to be scanned material. The other, possibly simpler, idea that I had was a (set of) camera(s) that could take a high (enough) resolution picture of the page from 2?3 feet away. ? ? ? Googling ? ? ? Apparently "copy stand" is the name for what I'm talking about. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Jul 18 22:22:37 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 20:22:37 -0700 Subject: WordPerfect 5.1+ for VMS In-Reply-To: References: <82bd40fd-7225-4ecd-4b70-40d128e64b0f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <017d01d53d2b$bd58f730$380ae590$@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Jul 18, 2019, at 12:12 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > > I've no idea where it came from but I do have a licence PAK for WordPerfect: 7-NOV-1991 to 2011. > > You could just run with a date in the past ... seems somehow apropriate :-) Oddly enough, mine ran from August 1991 to August 2011. Zane From dittman at dittman.net Thu Jul 18 22:58:21 2019 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 22:58:21 -0500 Subject: dBase IV for VAX/VMS (was WordPerfect 5.1+ for VMS) In-Reply-To: <874BFC64-1E79-4334-A5F9-08BA34A92470@avanthar.com> References: <82bd40fd-7225-4ecd-4b70-40d128e64b0f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <874BFC64-1E79-4334-A5F9-08BA34A92470@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <04f9a14c-09fa-5674-df18-12291eb74631@dittman.net> On 7/18/2019 12:26 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > On a related note, was there ever a copy of dBase III or dBase IV for VAX/VMS? I know there was a version of Lotus 1-2-3. I don't know about the earlier versions but I have a copy of dBase IV for VAX/VMS that's still in the shrink-wrap. -- Eric Dittman From guykd at optusnet.com.au Fri Jul 19 00:01:18 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 15:01:18 +1000 Subject: Scanning question In-Reply-To: <5a9e8311-b3d4-323a-9a93-bc0d4a5e9213@spamtrap.tnetconsulti ng.net> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190719150118.01229750@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 08:51 PM 18/07/2019 -0600, you wrote: >On 7/18/19 3:50 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: >> So, I have a bunch of old DEC Rainbow docs that aren't online. I also >> have a snapscan scanner that I use for bills and such. >> >> There's four kinds of docs, and I'm looking for advice: > >I always wanted to apply (fiber) optics to this. I wanted something >that was akin to a (glass) block that I could set on the bed of a >scanner that would be tall enough that I could open books 90???110?? with >the to be scanned side sitting on top of the raised / extended scanner >bed with the book pages laying off to one side. Much like you would see >if someone was reading the book while laying on their back. > >I don't know if anything like this exists or is even possible. Same thing, much simpler. Called an Edge Scanner. (google) It's just a normal travelling sensor scanner, but without all the wasted space along one side. They usually can scan to within a small few mm of the edge of the glass plate, and there's no side structure beyond the glass plate edge. You just raise the scanner up on blocks to give sufficient vertical clearance at the side for your book width. There's still the issue of compressing the book to ensure the pages lay properly flat on the glass. For this 'small edge' you pay a lot extra, even though many existing scanners can be hacked to be edge scanners just by cutting away excess garbage at one side. The usual corporate calculated feature-limitation bullsh*t. I have a few related UNFINISHED articles online: http://everist.org/temp/edge/20150214_hacking_edge.htm http://everist.org/temp/On_scanning.htm http://everist.org/temp/20140812_disconnecting_the_dots.htm And threads like this make me hate myself for not having finished those. Too busy, and they are all halted by dependencies on _other_ unfinished/ unsolved problems. I have a lot more to say about the wisdom of destroying original publications to scan them, especially when you are not already an expert at scanning and the many tradeoffs. But have to go afk just now. Guy From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 19 00:36:57 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 22:36:57 -0700 Subject: Scanning question In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190719150118.01229750@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20190719150118.01229750@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <132a96a8-dbcc-bd1f-8a01-2ca57545b883@sydex.com> On 7/18/19 10:01 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > I have a lot more to say about the wisdom of destroying original publications > to scan them, especially when you are not already an expert at scanning and > the many tradeoffs. > But have to go afk just now. It would seem to be possible today. Perhaps with a laser scanner that also determines the focal plane of the area of the text it's trying to scan? I'm sure there must be something like this. --Chuck From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Fri Jul 19 00:43:01 2019 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 07:43:01 +0200 Subject: Scanning question In-Reply-To: <132a96a8-dbcc-bd1f-8a01-2ca57545b883@sydex.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20190719150118.01229750@mail.optusnet.com.au> <132a96a8-dbcc-bd1f-8a01-2ca57545b883@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 19/07/19 7:36 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 7/18/19 10:01 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > >> I have a lot more to say about the wisdom of destroying original publications >> to scan them, especially when you are not already an expert at scanning and >> the many tradeoffs. >> But have to go afk just now. > It would seem to be possible today. Perhaps with a laser scanner that > also determines the focal plane of the area of the text it's trying to scan? > > I'm sure there must be something like this. > > --Chuck Have a look at https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/aura-speeds-simplifies-all-your-scanning-needs#/ Carl Claunch pointed me at this, he has one and I am sure he can comment further. I have ordered one. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Fri Jul 19 05:26:42 2019 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 03:26:42 -0700 Subject: Scanning question In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190719150118.01229750@mail.optusnet.com.au> <132a96a8-dbcc-bd1f-8a01-2ca57545b883@sydex.com> Message-ID: <003601d53e1c$768dab60$63a90220$@net> > Have a look at > https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/aura-speeds-simplifies-all-your- > scanning-needs#/ > > Carl Claunch pointed me at this, he has one and I am sure he can > comment > further. I have ordered one. You can actually get them off of Amazon and they run specials on them quite often. However, I have spoken to a few guys who own one and they are less than impressed.... -Ali From pat at vax11.net Fri Jul 19 05:50:37 2019 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 06:50:37 -0400 Subject: Scanning question In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190719150118.01229750@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20190719150118.01229750@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 19, 2019, 01:01 Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > > I have a lot more to say about the wisdom of destroying original > publications > to scan them, especially when you are not already an expert at scanning and > the many tradeoffs. > But have to go afk just now. > There are literally dozens of classic computers that I've been able to fix or make useful thanks to scanned manuals from Al Kossow or others, where the docs are too rare for me to have found an original of. Without the scanned copies, the machines probably would have ended up scrapped. It's better to have more people making more information accessible than just hoarding documentation (and then they probably just eventually get thrown out) and not scanning them because of some curmudgeon saying they don't know the best way to do it. Pat > > From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Jul 19 06:06:19 2019 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 12:06:19 +0100 Subject: Scanning question In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190719150118.01229750@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20190719150118.01229750@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <20f62a7b-fb37-2157-2801-0af0c64130e1@ntlworld.com> On 19/07/2019 06:01, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > > I have a lot more to say about the wisdom of destroying original publications > to scan them, especially when you are not already an expert at scanning and > the many tradeoffs. > But have to go afk just now. I scanned a decent amount, several hundred items, when I had access to reasonable scanners. I've "destroyed" precisely one item and that actually still exists (I cut the spine off but I still have all the pages). A few other docs had already fallen apart (the glue in the binding had failed over the years) so I may have separated out the last few remaining pages. Everything else was either in a ring binder or stapled together (in which case I've reassembled the document afterwards). So scanning doesn't necessarily lead to a reduction in available hardcopy. I suspect that much more is lost either due to "I need the space, this has to go" or time (water damage, pages sticking together, mice/worms, whatever). Which reminds me, I need to find online copies of Personal Computer World so I can sell off a few boxes worth :-) Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Jul 19 07:49:40 2019 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 13:49:40 +0100 Subject: Scanning question In-Reply-To: <132a96a8-dbcc-bd1f-8a01-2ca57545b883@sydex.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20190719150118.01229750@mail.optusnet.com.au> <132a96a8-dbcc-bd1f-8a01-2ca57545b883@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2019-07-19 6:36 a.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 7/18/19 10:01 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > >> I have a lot more to say about the wisdom of destroying original publications >> to scan them, especially when you are not already an expert at scanning and >> the many tradeoffs. >> But have to go afk just now. > > It would seem to be possible today. Perhaps with a laser scanner that > also determines the focal plane of the area of the text it's trying to scan? > There are both software (e.g. some of Matt Zucker's code) and hardware (e.g. what google does) solutions for this, and published research on related matters. --Toby > I'm sure there must be something like this. > > --Chuck > > From ethan at 757.org Fri Jul 19 10:36:59 2019 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 11:36:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Scanning question In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190719150118.01229750@mail.optusnet.com.au> <132a96a8-dbcc-bd1f-8a01-2ca57545b883@sydex.com> Message-ID: > Carl Claunch pointed me at this, he has one and I am sure he can comment > further. I have ordered one. What about the setups where it's a cube with with digital cameras mounted facing opposite plexiglass panels? You sit it down in the book and the cameras shoot both pages at once. - Ethan From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri Jul 19 15:04:29 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 13:04:29 -0700 Subject: dBase IV for VAX/VMS (was WordPerfect 5.1+ for VMS) In-Reply-To: <04f9a14c-09fa-5674-df18-12291eb74631@dittman.net> References: <82bd40fd-7225-4ecd-4b70-40d128e64b0f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <874BFC64-1E79-4334-A5F9-08BA34A92470@avanthar.com> <04f9a14c-09fa-5674-df18-12291eb74631@dittman.net> Message-ID: <686CEEF6-3CDB-4260-AB79-86A78B7E864D@avanthar.com> > On Jul 18, 2019, at 8:58 PM, Eric Dittman via cctalk wrote: > > On 7/18/2019 12:26 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> On a related note, was there ever a copy of dBase III or dBase IV for VAX/VMS? I know there was a version of Lotus 1-2-3. > > I don't know about the earlier versions but I have a copy of dBase IV > for VAX/VMS that's still in the shrink-wrap. > -- > Eric Dittman Interesting, so my vague memory was correct. That means they had WordPerfect, Lotus 1-2-3, and dBase IV available. Was there All-IN-1 integration? I think both WordPerfect and Lotus 1-2-3 offered that. There seems to be almost no info online on it. Zane From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Jul 19 17:13:09 2019 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 15:13:09 -0700 Subject: Scanning question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5AD96DCC-D679-4D73-80A3-E2DEE5EE58FE@reanimators.org> On Jul 18, 2019, at 14:50, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > So, I have a bunch of old DEC Rainbow docs that aren't online. I also have > a snapscan scanner that I use for bills and such. I do this kind of thing, with a ScanSnap S1500M (M means Mac), but mostly don't mind that the process is destructive to the books. Really, the only things that survive this process are the things that start out looseleaf, and as I?m trying to get some silverfish food out of my life, most of them get recycled too. Really there is a ScanSnap for the text block and a flatbed for the covers. I scan covers and/or dust jackets first, on the flatbed, usually 300dpi color. Sometimes front cover with spine if I think the design is interesting. Books come apart. Yes, glue bound books get crumbly bindings after 30 years or so and come apart easily. Newer glue bound books come apart less easily because the binding is still gummy and gooey. You will still want a paper cutter or shear to clean up the gutter by about 1/8 inch (would perhaps use 4mm if my paper cutter had a metric scale) and make its edge less ragged and less gooey. The ScanSnap wants to scan a bunch of sheets/pages and make a PDF for you. It can do an automatic post-scan OCR if you let it, and that works well for account statements and other short documents. Its OCR (which I think is a version of AABBY that Fujitsu/PFUCA licensed for use with the ScanSnap software) is not real good at recognizing multiple columns or tables, it gets the characters but not the layout. The ScanSnap can also try to figure out whether a page image should be scanned as black-and-white, as grayscale, or as color. There are ways to control this if you?re not happy with its choices through defining scanning profiles that influence and limit its choices. So I scan black-and-white text as 400dpi or 600dpi (judgment call). You may find you want to scan one book piecewise so you can use black-and-white for the text-only parts and grayscale or color for the photo plates. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/portablePlus/45559-90001_Portable_PLUS_Technical_Reference_Manual_Aug1985.pdf is an example of one (a looseleaf manual) that I did with a ScanSnap, and I think I did it all in black-and-white at 400dpi. You can see the holes punched for the three-ring binder. Al would put white over them to hide them, but that's because his scanner yields per-page TIFFs where he can get at that. I have got some shell/Perl/netpbm code that does things like that with his sort of scanner filepiles like that, but haven?t got round to something to turn a ScanSnap-produced PDF into a bunch of per-page TIFFs. You can use Adobe Acrobat Pro to gather a bunch of PDFs (and PNGs and TIFFs) into a single PDF, put down page numbers, put down bookmarks that mirror the table of contents. Eric Smith's tumble can do some of these things but I also use Acrobat Pro 8 (which was bundled with the S1500M) for OCR. Its OCR is based on something other than AABBY (I.R.I.S. I think) and does better at multiple columns of text. I do not expect OCR to be perfect, ever. I hope it will be good enough for me to find things I remember reading, and thus far it has worked reasonably well at that. (This via macOS Spotlight.) What is presented for view in Preview is the page image as scanned and there is the possibility to re-OCR the PDF with newer software. ScanSnap software looked much the same on Windows and macOS, and may yet; haven?t seen recent versions of the Windows software. There are differences in how they encode page images in PDFs, e.g. on macOS the software will encode a black-and-white scanned page image using a compression that is lossless but doesn't actually compress very well, and I think this is because macOS code is used to construct the PDF. I use an Acrobat Pro ?preflight? configuration to convert these to what is basically TIFF G4 encoding with run-length lossless compression that is better at reducing PDF file size. On Windows, the generated PDF also uses the run-length compression. -Frank McConnell From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Jul 19 18:15:36 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 23:15:36 +0000 Subject: dBase IV for VAX/VMS (was WordPerfect 5.1+ for VMS) In-Reply-To: <686CEEF6-3CDB-4260-AB79-86A78B7E864D@avanthar.com> References: <82bd40fd-7225-4ecd-4b70-40d128e64b0f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <874BFC64-1E79-4334-A5F9-08BA34A92470@avanthar.com> <04f9a14c-09fa-5674-df18-12291eb74631@dittman.net> <686CEEF6-3CDB-4260-AB79-86A78B7E864D@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On 7/19/19 4:04 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > >> On Jul 18, 2019, at 8:58 PM, Eric Dittman via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 7/18/2019 12:26 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >>> On a related note, was there ever a copy of dBase III or dBase IV for VAX/VMS? I know there was a version of Lotus 1-2-3. >> >> I don't know about the earlier versions but I have a copy of dBase IV >> for VAX/VMS that's still in the shrink-wrap. >> -- >> Eric Dittman > > Interesting, so my vague memory was correct. That means they had WordPerfect, Lotus 1-2-3, and dBase IV available. Was there All-IN-1 integration? I think both WordPerfect and Lotus 1-2-3 offered that. > > There seems to be almost no info online on it. > I just looked and none of the three were included in the VAX Software Source Book. bill From dittman at dittman.net Fri Jul 19 21:52:22 2019 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 21:52:22 -0500 Subject: DEC Pro380 problems Message-ID: I pulled my Pro380 out of storage after getting a replacement VR201 monitor. I connected it all together and on powerup I get the following display: http://www.dittman.net/pro380/screen.jpg The tech manual says this is an error from slot 1 (the hard drive controller) and the error is "Non-existent memory trap occurred for longer than 20 seconds". I reseated all the cards. I noticed three ICs are missing on the hard drive controller but I don't know if they are empty or someone removed the ICs (I can't remember where I got this system). I can't find a picture of the controller to compare. The missing ICs can be seen here: http://www.dittman.net/pro380/missingics.jpg These are the installed option cards: http://www.dittman.net/pro380/cards.jpg Any ideas? -- Eric Dittman From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 19 22:22:08 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 20:22:08 -0700 Subject: Scotch 777 "blue label" tape blues confirmed In-Reply-To: <09af01d53ce8$06035aa0$120a0fe0$@com> References: <09af01d53ce8$06035aa0$120a0fe0$@com> Message-ID: <2341b12a-30bd-f0d2-fa80-5109458adcce@sydex.com> This is in reference to my earlier post about Scotch 777 half-inch open-reel tapes. I'd reported that I encountered a tape that displayed binder bleed, such that the tape would stick to the heads and guides. This was a tape that had been both baked and cleaned. Coating the tape with a film of cyclomethicone allowed it to be successfully read. In the latest batch of tapes, I found another one--it behaves identically. These appear to be only the blue foil-labeled 777s; the yellow paper labeled ones are fine. I estimate the manufacture date to be about 1969-70. FWIW, Chuck From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Jul 19 22:59:40 2019 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 22:59:40 -0500 Subject: Scotch 777 "blue label" tape blues confirmed In-Reply-To: <2341b12a-30bd-f0d2-fa80-5109458adcce@sydex.com> References: <09af01d53ce8$06035aa0$120a0fe0$@com> <2341b12a-30bd-f0d2-fa80-5109458adcce@sydex.com> Message-ID: same as sticky shed syndrome? On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 10:22 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > This is in reference to my earlier post about Scotch 777 half-inch > open-reel tapes. I'd reported that I encountered a tape that displayed > binder bleed, such that the tape would stick to the heads and guides. > > This was a tape that had been both baked and cleaned. > > Coating the tape with a film of cyclomethicone allowed it to be > successfully read. > > In the latest batch of tapes, I found another one--it behaves identically. > > These appear to be only the blue foil-labeled 777s; the yellow paper > labeled ones are fine. > > I estimate the manufacture date to be about 1969-70. > > FWIW, > Chuck > From imp at bsdimp.com Sat Jul 20 00:41:27 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 23:41:27 -0600 Subject: Scanning Results Message-ID: OK. I've done the first of the manuals I have. Thanks for all the helpful hints. I took apart the Rainbow User's Manual's metal spiral spine. I scanned it with scansnap and ran it through the indexing function. I think I tweaked the settings in a reasonable way. The results look good to my eye, but I'm not 100% sure, so I thought I'd post it here for feedback: https://people.freebsd.org/~imp/EK-P100E-OM-001_Rainbow_100_Owner's_Manual-Nov-1982.pdf I have the manual still apart and can do additional scanning runs easily enough. The paper is in great shape. Second, how do I submit this to bitkeepers? I've looked around and don't see how. maybe I'm just being blind... Warner From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 20 01:08:53 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 23:08:53 -0700 Subject: Scotch 777 "blue label" tape blues confirmed In-Reply-To: References: <09af01d53ce8$06035aa0$120a0fe0$@com> <2341b12a-30bd-f0d2-fa80-5109458adcce@sydex.com> Message-ID: <57b51e45-1b7a-bbbb-fab1-c5210da8c83f@sydex.com> On 7/19/19 8:59 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > same as sticky shed syndrome? No, not exactly--it's more like binder bleed-through. The oxide remains firmly attached to the base, but there is a film of either gummified lubricant or binder that fouls up things. Normally, if it's sticky-shed, the tape sticks to itself, but that isn't the case--the tape despools and spools quite easily on its own, but leaves deposits on any stationary surfaces that it glides over--and adheres to those. Isopropanol seems to clean deposits from heads and guides; no oxide is left behind. So a coating of cyclomethicone renders the tape non-sticky for a time. It's bizarre and seems to be related to this particular type of tape. --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Jul 20 05:03:46 2019 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 11:03:46 +0100 Subject: Scanning question In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190719150118.01229750@mail.optusnet.com.au> <132a96a8-dbcc-bd1f-8a01-2ca57545b883@sydex.com> Message-ID: <7df3a107-9633-ce45-6958-8eff5fbb0975@telegraphics.com.au> On 2019-07-19 4:36 p.m., Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: >> Carl Claunch pointed me at this, he has one and I am sure he can comment >> further. I have ordered one. > > What about the setups where it's a cube with with digital cameras > mounted facing opposite plexiglass panels? You sit it down in the book > and the cameras shoot both pages at once. http://diybookscanner.org > > ??????? - Ethan > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Jul 20 09:28:12 2019 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 07:28:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Scanning question In-Reply-To: <5AD96DCC-D679-4D73-80A3-E2DEE5EE58FE@reanimators.org> References: <5AD96DCC-D679-4D73-80A3-E2DEE5EE58FE@reanimators.org> Message-ID: This shows the scanner and process that I use. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niwLAbgRpDE The plans for the scanner as well as links to all the software I use is in the video description. With the exception of the cameras and lighting system, it's basically the same as the Archive scanners that the Internet Archive uses for non-destructive book scanning. At some point I'm going to pick up a Visioneer Patriot H60 for doing loose duplex scanning. It's got a reasonable (120 page) ADF and isn't outrageously expensive. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From ylee at columbia.edu Fri Jul 19 16:53:55 2019 From: ylee at columbia.edu (Yeechang Lee) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 14:53:55 -0700 Subject: Decision Data Keyboard for sale In-Reply-To: <8f645fa0-8649-22e2-1a57-80403a091d86@andrewnesbit.org> References: <092201d53cd8$54697ea0$fd3c7be0$@com> <8f645fa0-8649-22e2-1a57-80403a091d86@andrewnesbit.org> Message-ID: <23858.15347.591795.404918@dobie.ylee.org> Andrew Luke Nesbit says: > Does anybody have recommendations for RSS readers? I recommend Inoreader. Best replacement for Google Reader I know of. From drb at msu.edu Sat Jul 20 11:24:09 2019 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 12:24:09 -0400 Subject: Scotch 777 "blue label" tape blues confirmed In-Reply-To: (Your message of Fri, 19 Jul 2019 20:22:08 -0700.) <2341b12a-30bd-f0d2-fa80-5109458adcce@sydex.com> References: <2341b12a-30bd-f0d2-fa80-5109458adcce@sydex.com> <09af01d53ce8$06035aa0$120a0fe0$@com> Message-ID: <20190720162409.C6D7C2A5FE@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Coating the tape with a film of cyclomethicone allowed it to be > successfully read. I'm curious what mechanism you use for the coating? De From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 20 11:38:39 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 09:38:39 -0700 Subject: Scotch 777 "blue label" tape blues confirmed In-Reply-To: <20190720162409.C6D7C2A5FE@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <2341b12a-30bd-f0d2-fa80-5109458adcce@sydex.com> <09af01d53ce8$06035aa0$120a0fe0$@com> <20190720162409.C6D7C2A5FE@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <29d38fba-e9e9-0399-4d00-7b62491a66ea@sydex.com> On 7/20/19 9:24 AM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > > Coating the tape with a film of cyclomethicone allowed it to be > > successfully read. > > I'm curious what mechanism you use for the coating? A thick (1/4") felt strip glued to a large PVC pipe cap with a few small (#60) holes drilled in it to dispense the lubricant. Just put this in the tape path of your cleaning machine on the rewind cycle. --Chuck From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Jul 20 12:18:11 2019 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 10:18:11 -0700 Subject: Scotch 777 "blue label" tape blues confirmed In-Reply-To: <29d38fba-e9e9-0399-4d00-7b62491a66ea@sydex.com> References: <2341b12a-30bd-f0d2-fa80-5109458adcce@sydex.com> <09af01d53ce8$06035aa0$120a0fe0$@com> <20190720162409.C6D7C2A5FE@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <29d38fba-e9e9-0399-4d00-7b62491a66ea@sydex.com> Message-ID: <89B877AB-EC73-4017-9519-DFA34E5B3365@nf6x.net> > On Jul 20, 2019, at 9:38 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > your cleaning machine I do not have a cleaning machine. Do you suppose a cyclomethicone applicator fabricobbled into the tape path of a tape drive might work? I haven't encountered these sorts of issues in 9-track tapes yet, but I've certainly been frustrated with binder bleed and/or sticky shed when I tried to mess with a TK50 drive. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sat Jul 20 12:20:10 2019 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 18:20:10 +0100 Subject: dBase IV for VAX/VMS (was WordPerfect 5.1+ for VMS) In-Reply-To: References: <82bd40fd-7225-4ecd-4b70-40d128e64b0f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <874BFC64-1E79-4334-A5F9-08BA34A92470@avanthar.com> <04f9a14c-09fa-5674-df18-12291eb74631@dittman.net> <686CEEF6-3CDB-4260-AB79-86A78B7E864D@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <32cf95f0-1133-6172-71c9-b3d5f5c4532a@ntlworld.com> On 20/07/2019 00:15, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 7/19/19 4:04 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >>> On Jul 18, 2019, at 8:58 PM, Eric Dittman via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> On 7/18/2019 12:26 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >>>> On a related note, was there ever a copy of dBase III or dBase IV for VAX/VMS? I know there was a version of Lotus 1-2-3. >>> I don't know about the earlier versions but I have a copy of dBase IV >>> for VAX/VMS that's still in the shrink-wrap. >>> -- >>> Eric Dittman >> Interesting, so my vague memory was correct. That means they had WordPerfect, Lotus 1-2-3, and dBase IV available. Was there All-IN-1 integration? I think both WordPerfect and Lotus 1-2-3 offered that. >> >> There seems to be almost no info online on it. >> > I just looked and none of the three were included in the > VAX Software Source Book. Lotus 1-2-3 had AL-IN-1 integration (at least that's what the announcement of it's retirement suggests. It sounds like Lotus developed and sold it and Digital just advertised it. The retirement happened in 1995. Back in 1991, all three were available on the VAXstation 4000 VLC: "VAXstation 4000 VLC The VAXstation 4000 VLC workstation is the first workstation in the industry to break the $3,500 price barrier.? Offering 6.2 SPECmarks (6 VUPs) of processing power, this system is twice as powerful as the previous entry- level VAXstation 3100 Model 30 system. This low price and DEC SoftPC V3.0 software (Digital's PC emulator) or native applications, such as Lotus 1-2-3, dBASE IV, or WordPerfect, make the VAXstation 4000 VLC system a desirable alternative to PCs in the VMS environment. For more information regarding DEC SoftPC software, see the related article in this issue of Digital's Customer Update." I don't see a price anywhere so I can't tell how "low" it really was :-) Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 20 13:54:43 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 11:54:43 -0700 Subject: Scotch 777 "blue label" tape blues confirmed In-Reply-To: <89B877AB-EC73-4017-9519-DFA34E5B3365@nf6x.net> References: <2341b12a-30bd-f0d2-fa80-5109458adcce@sydex.com> <09af01d53ce8$06035aa0$120a0fe0$@com> <20190720162409.C6D7C2A5FE@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <29d38fba-e9e9-0399-4d00-7b62491a66ea@sydex.com> <89B877AB-EC73-4017-9519-DFA34E5B3365@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <8fb9cb91-de71-d094-e301-17d355e563fa@sydex.com> On 7/20/19 10:18 AM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > >> On Jul 20, 2019, at 9:38 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> >> your cleaning machine > > I do not have a cleaning machine. Do you suppose a cyclomethicone applicator fabricobbled into the tape path of a tape drive might work? > > I haven't encountered these sorts of issues in 9-track tapes yet, but I've certainly been frustrated with binder bleed and/or sticky shed when I tried to mess with a TK50 drive. I don't think that would be a problem. The stuff is inert and somewhat volatile (somewhere around the volatility of water), so it will evaporate eventually. It leaves no residue. Just don't spill it on the floor or you'll have your own private slip'n'slide right there in your shop. I've even used the stuff to recover data from those dreadful 5.25" Wabash floppies. --Chuck From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Jul 20 15:15:10 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 21:15:10 +0100 Subject: dBase IV for VAX/VMS (was WordPerfect 5.1+ for VMS) In-Reply-To: <32cf95f0-1133-6172-71c9-b3d5f5c4532a@ntlworld.com> References: <82bd40fd-7225-4ecd-4b70-40d128e64b0f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <874BFC64-1E79-4334-A5F9-08BA34A92470@avanthar.com> <04f9a14c-09fa-5674-df18-12291eb74631@dittman.net> <686CEEF6-3CDB-4260-AB79-86A78B7E864D@avanthar.com> <32cf95f0-1133-6172-71c9-b3d5f5c4532a@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <022d01d53f37$d584d0a0$808e71e0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Antonio Carlini > via cctalk > Sent: 20 July 2019 18:20 > To: Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > Subject: Re: dBase IV for VAX/VMS (was WordPerfect 5.1+ for VMS) > > On 20/07/2019 00:15, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On 7/19/19 4:04 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > >>> On Jul 18, 2019, at 8:58 PM, Eric Dittman via cctalk > wrote: > >>> > >>> On 7/18/2019 12:26 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > >>>> On a related note, was there ever a copy of dBase III or dBase IV for > VAX/VMS? I know there was a version of Lotus 1-2-3. > >>> I don't know about the earlier versions but I have a copy of dBase > >>> IV for VAX/VMS that's still in the shrink-wrap. > >>> -- > >>> Eric Dittman > >> Interesting, so my vague memory was correct. That means they had > WordPerfect, Lotus 1-2-3, and dBase IV available. Was there All-IN-1 > integration? I think both WordPerfect and Lotus 1-2-3 offered that. > >> > >> There seems to be almost no info online on it. > >> > > I just looked and none of the three were included in the VAX Software > > Source Book. > > > Lotus 1-2-3 had AL-IN-1 integration (at least that's what the announcement > of it's retirement suggests. It sounds like Lotus developed and sold it and > Digital just advertised it. The retirement happened in 1995. > > Back in 1991, all three were available on the VAXstation 4000 VLC: > > > "VAXstation 4000 VLC > > The VAXstation 4000 VLC workstation is the first workstation in the industry > to break the $3,500 price barrier. Offering 6.2 SPECmarks (6 VUPs) of > processing power, this system is twice as powerful as the previous entry- > level VAXstation 3100 Model 30 system. This low price and DEC SoftPC V3.0 > software (Digital's PC emulator) or native applications, such as Lotus 1-2-3, > dBASE IV, or WordPerfect, make the VAXstation 4000 VLC system a desirable > alternative to PCs in the VMS environment. For more information regarding > DEC SoftPC software, see the related article in this issue of Digital's Customer > Update." > > > I don't see a price anywhere so I can't tell how "low" it really was :-) > > > Antonio Well given what you say above I would guess $3,499! Does any one know if its possible to buy traded 123 , WP, DBASE or SoftPC for the VLC? It would be real fun to see how slow they were on the VLC although it does seem to run the software I have installed very smoothly Dave > > > -- > Antonio Carlini > antonio at acarlini.com From nw.johnson at ieee.org Sat Jul 20 15:37:01 2019 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 16:37:01 -0400 Subject: dBase IV for VAX/VMS (was WordPerfect 5.1+ for VMS) In-Reply-To: <022d01d53f37$d584d0a0$808e71e0$@gmail.com> References: <82bd40fd-7225-4ecd-4b70-40d128e64b0f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <874BFC64-1E79-4334-A5F9-08BA34A92470@avanthar.com> <04f9a14c-09fa-5674-df18-12291eb74631@dittman.net> <686CEEF6-3CDB-4260-AB79-86A78B7E864D@avanthar.com> <32cf95f0-1133-6172-71c9-b3d5f5c4532a@ntlworld.com> <022d01d53f37$d584d0a0$808e71e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I never could figure out why would anybody need dbase IV when RMS was built into the VAX file system? I once did a media conversion from Vax to PC where the programmers said the uVax II was as slow as molasses, then I found that they had the data stored as a flat ASCII file ! On 20/07/2019 16:15, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk On Behalf Of Antonio Carlini >> via cctalk >> Sent: 20 July 2019 18:20 >> To: Bill Gunshannon via cctalk >> Subject: Re: dBase IV for VAX/VMS (was WordPerfect 5.1+ for VMS) >> >> On 20/07/2019 00:15, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >>> On 7/19/19 4:04 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >>>>> On Jul 18, 2019, at 8:58 PM, Eric Dittman via cctalk >> wrote: >>>>> On 7/18/2019 12:26 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >>>>>> On a related note, was there ever a copy of dBase III or dBase IV for >> VAX/VMS? I know there was a version of Lotus 1-2-3. >>>>> I don't know about the earlier versions but I have a copy of dBase >>>>> IV for VAX/VMS that's still in the shrink-wrap. >>>>> -- >>>>> Eric Dittman >>>> Interesting, so my vague memory was correct. That means they had >> WordPerfect, Lotus 1-2-3, and dBase IV available. Was there All-IN-1 >> integration? I think both WordPerfect and Lotus 1-2-3 offered that. >>>> There seems to be almost no info online on it. >>>> >>> I just looked and none of the three were included in the VAX Software >>> Source Book. >> >> Lotus 1-2-3 had AL-IN-1 integration (at least that's what the announcement >> of it's retirement suggests. It sounds like Lotus developed and sold it and >> Digital just advertised it. The retirement happened in 1995. >> >> Back in 1991, all three were available on the VAXstation 4000 VLC: >> >> >> "VAXstation 4000 VLC >> >> The VAXstation 4000 VLC workstation is the first workstation in the industry >> to break the $3,500 price barrier. Offering 6.2 SPECmarks (6 VUPs) of >> processing power, this system is twice as powerful as the previous entry- >> level VAXstation 3100 Model 30 system. This low price and DEC SoftPC V3.0 >> software (Digital's PC emulator) or native applications, such as Lotus 1-2-3, >> dBASE IV, or WordPerfect, make the VAXstation 4000 VLC system a desirable >> alternative to PCs in the VMS environment. For more information regarding >> DEC SoftPC software, see the related article in this issue of Digital's Customer >> Update." >> >> >> I don't see a price anywhere so I can't tell how "low" it really was :-) >> >> >> Antonio > Well given what you say above I would guess $3,499! > > Does any one know if its possible to buy traded 123 , WP, DBASE or SoftPC for the VLC? > It would be real fun to see how slow they were on the VLC although it does seem to run the software I have installed very smoothly > > Dave > > >> >> -- >> Antonio Carlini >> antonio at acarlini.com > -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sat Jul 20 16:46:29 2019 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 22:46:29 +0100 Subject: dBase IV for VAX/VMS (was WordPerfect 5.1+ for VMS) In-Reply-To: <022d01d53f37$d584d0a0$808e71e0$@gmail.com> References: <82bd40fd-7225-4ecd-4b70-40d128e64b0f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <874BFC64-1E79-4334-A5F9-08BA34A92470@avanthar.com> <04f9a14c-09fa-5674-df18-12291eb74631@dittman.net> <686CEEF6-3CDB-4260-AB79-86A78B7E864D@avanthar.com> <32cf95f0-1133-6172-71c9-b3d5f5c4532a@ntlworld.com> <022d01d53f37$d584d0a0$808e71e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 20/07/2019 21:15, Dave Wade wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk On Behalf Of Antonio Carlini >> via cctalk >> >> >> >> "VAXstation 4000 VLC >> >> The VAXstation 4000 VLC workstation is the first workstation in the industry >> to break the $3,500 price barrier. Offering 6.2 SPECmarks (6 VUPs) of >> processing power, this system is twice as powerful as the previous entry- >> level VAXstation 3100 Model 30 system. This low price and DEC SoftPC V3.0 >> software (Digital's PC emulator) or native applications, such as Lotus 1-2-3, >> dBASE IV, or WordPerfect, make the VAXstation 4000 VLC system a desirable >> alternative to PCs in the VMS environment. For more information regarding >> DEC SoftPC software, see the related article in this issue of Digital's Customer >> Update." >> >> >> I don't see a price anywhere so I can't tell how "low" it really was :-) >> >> >> Antonio > Well given what you say above I would guess $3,499! I really meant for any of that software. Remember, the software was just there to sell the hardware :-) Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From healyzh at avanthar.com Sat Jul 20 17:23:19 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 15:23:19 -0700 Subject: dBase IV for VAX/VMS (was WordPerfect 5.1+ for VMS) In-Reply-To: <32cf95f0-1133-6172-71c9-b3d5f5c4532a@ntlworld.com> References: <82bd40fd-7225-4ecd-4b70-40d128e64b0f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <874BFC64-1E79-4334-A5F9-08BA34A92470@avanthar.com> <04f9a14c-09fa-5674-df18-12291eb74631@dittman.net> <686CEEF6-3CDB-4260-AB79-86A78B7E864D@avanthar.com> <32cf95f0-1133-6172-71c9-b3d5f5c4532a@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > On Jul 20, 2019, at 10:20 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > > Lotus 1-2-3 had AL-IN-1 integration (at least that's what the announcement of it's retirement suggests. It sounds like Lotus developed and sold it and Digital just advertised it. The retirement happened in 1995. It definitely had ALL-IN-1 integration. The rest of that sounds right, I think it was released around 1990. Does anyone remember when IBM bought Lotus? That likely had something to do with the retirement, I know that by ?95 IBM had owned them for a while. It also had Rdb integration. > Back in 1991, all three were available on the VAXstation 4000 VLC: > > > "VAXstation 4000 VLC > > The VAXstation 4000 VLC workstation is the first workstation in the industry > to break the $3,500 price barrier. Offering 6.2 SPECmarks (6 VUPs) of > processing power, this system is twice as powerful as the previous entry- > level VAXstation 3100 Model 30 system. This low price and DEC SoftPC V3.0 > software (Digital's PC emulator) or native applications, such as Lotus > 1-2-3, dBASE IV, or WordPerfect, make the VAXstation 4000 VLC system a > desirable alternative to PCs in the VMS environment. For more information > regarding DEC SoftPC software, see the related article in this issue of > Digital's Customer Update." > > > I don't see a price anywhere so I can't tell how "low" it really was :-) That would explain why the VLC I have, had both Wordperfect and Lotus 1-2-3. Both reminded me of the DOS versions. Unfortunately I have no idea on what the original prices were. It would definitely be interesting to know. I need to get organized. I?m honestly not sure where a lot of the DEC documentation I still have is. SoftPC sounds like it would be interesting to play with. I?m not sure when WordPerfect ceased to be available. I?m pretty sure you could still buy 7.1 in 2000, as I considered finding out what it would cost at that time. Here is some info on pricing of Lotus 1-2-3? https://www.cbronline.com/news/lotus_launches_vms_1_2_3_/ "Prices for 1-2-3 for VAX/VMS range from $800 for single-user VAXstation 3100 systems to $67,473 for VAX 9000 systems; 1-2-3 for All-In-1 prices range from $1,197 to $94,462 on the same machines.? Also pricing info for WordPerfect v4.2: https://www.cbronline.com/news/wordperfect_to_give_wordperfect_42_its_european_debut/ "Wordperfect 4.2 for DEC VAX/VMS its European debut: the pack ? UKP850 on a VAXstation to UKP23,570 for the VAX 8978" It looks like dBase IV must have been released for VAX/VMS between July of 1990 and 1991, since it looks like Borland acquired them in July of ?91, and announced continued support for VAX/VMS. For those that don?t remember that time period, Lotus 1-2-3 and WordPerfect for DOS both cost several hundred dollars. Zane From nw.johnson at ieee.org Sat Jul 20 17:26:09 2019 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 18:26:09 -0400 Subject: dBase IV for VAX/VMS (was WordPerfect 5.1+ for VMS) In-Reply-To: References: <82bd40fd-7225-4ecd-4b70-40d128e64b0f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <874BFC64-1E79-4334-A5F9-08BA34A92470@avanthar.com> <04f9a14c-09fa-5674-df18-12291eb74631@dittman.net> <686CEEF6-3CDB-4260-AB79-86A78B7E864D@avanthar.com> <32cf95f0-1133-6172-71c9-b3d5f5c4532a@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <075f2906-3b4d-3320-9a12-b8ac47dcb22f@ieee.org> Wordperfect is still available for the PC at least: https://www.wordperfect.com/en/product/office-suite/?_ga=2.94896540.1642000017.1563661496-220557285.1563661496&_gac=1.10602368.1563661496.EAIaIQobChMIrcuv_MTE4wIVRL7ACh0YpQXAEAAYAiAAEgLrn_D_BwE cheers, Nigel On 20/07/2019 18:23, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> On Jul 20, 2019, at 10:20 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: >> >> Lotus 1-2-3 had AL-IN-1 integration (at least that's what the announcement of it's retirement suggests. It sounds like Lotus developed and sold it and Digital just advertised it. The retirement happened in 1995. > It definitely had ALL-IN-1 integration. The rest of that sounds right, I think it was released around 1990. Does anyone remember when IBM bought Lotus? That likely had something to do with the retirement, I know that by ?95 IBM had owned them for a while. It also had Rdb integration. > >> Back in 1991, all three were available on the VAXstation 4000 VLC: >> >> >> "VAXstation 4000 VLC >> >> The VAXstation 4000 VLC workstation is the first workstation in the industry >> to break the $3,500 price barrier. Offering 6.2 SPECmarks (6 VUPs) of >> processing power, this system is twice as powerful as the previous entry- >> level VAXstation 3100 Model 30 system. This low price and DEC SoftPC V3.0 >> software (Digital's PC emulator) or native applications, such as Lotus >> 1-2-3, dBASE IV, or WordPerfect, make the VAXstation 4000 VLC system a >> desirable alternative to PCs in the VMS environment. For more information >> regarding DEC SoftPC software, see the related article in this issue of >> Digital's Customer Update." >> >> >> I don't see a price anywhere so I can't tell how "low" it really was :-) > That would explain why the VLC I have, had both Wordperfect and Lotus 1-2-3. Both reminded me of the DOS versions. Unfortunately I have no idea on what the original prices were. It would definitely be interesting to know. I need to get organized. I?m honestly not sure where a lot of the DEC documentation I still have is. > > SoftPC sounds like it would be interesting to play with. > > I?m not sure when WordPerfect ceased to be available. I?m pretty sure you could still buy 7.1 in 2000, as I considered finding out what it would cost at that time. > > Here is some info on pricing of Lotus 1-2-3? > > https://www.cbronline.com/news/lotus_launches_vms_1_2_3_/ > > "Prices for 1-2-3 for VAX/VMS range from $800 for single-user VAXstation 3100 systems to $67,473 for VAX 9000 systems; 1-2-3 for All-In-1 prices range from $1,197 to $94,462 on the same machines.? > > Also pricing info for WordPerfect v4.2: > https://www.cbronline.com/news/wordperfect_to_give_wordperfect_42_its_european_debut/ > > "Wordperfect 4.2 for DEC VAX/VMS its European debut: the pack ? UKP850 on a VAXstation to UKP23,570 for the VAX 8978" > > It looks like dBase IV must have been released for VAX/VMS between July of 1990 and 1991, since it looks like Borland acquired them in July of ?91, and announced continued support for VAX/VMS. > > For those that don?t remember that time period, Lotus 1-2-3 and WordPerfect for DOS both cost several hundred dollars. > > Zane > > > > -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From guykd at optusnet.com.au Sat Jul 20 19:34:14 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 10:34:14 +1000 Subject: Scanning question In-Reply-To: <003601d53e1c$768dab60$63a90220$@net> References: <3.0.6.32.20190719150118.01229750@mail.optusnet.com.au> <132a96a8-dbcc-bd1f-8a01-2ca57545b883@sydex.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190721103414.0122d278@mail.optusnet.com.au> >> Have a look at >> https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/aura-speeds-simplifies-all-your- >> scanning-needs#/ >> >> Carl Claunch pointed me at this, he has one and I am sure he can >> comment >> further. I have ordered one. > >You can actually get them off of Amazon and they run specials on them quite often. However, I have spoken to a few guys who own one and they are less than impressed.... > >-Ali Do you have links to anything they wrote about that? If not can you ask them to email me? I'd be very interested to hear their comments. I have a strong interest in the progress of scanning tech. I too have a considerable library of stuff that should be scanned. I do a few small ones now and then, but mainly as experiments in refining technique, and making myself think about data structure of the output. I don't consider (my) current scanning capabilities good enough to be worth dedicating the time required to scan large or critical works. Overall, the 'whole page at a time via a camera shot' technique has (so far) too many issues to be acceptable for my purposes. Image non-linearity due to paper curve and wrinkles, illumination variations, and px/inch resolution limitations plus that the effective px/inch varies after software correction of page arching. Also all of the above mean you can't stitch partial images of larger sheets, which you can with flatbed scanner images due to the precise pixel grid. Since lots of tech docs have huge foldouts... The underlying motivation with the photo method is 'speed in use'. But I have found that achieving visual consistency with the original publisher's creative intent, requires careful, slow proof examination and touchup of every single page. There are just so many variables, and I've yet to see any automated process that doesn't screw up in some circumstances. Maybe it's possible, I just have doubts, given that even the human eye can have difficulties sometimes. An important point, is that there are two very different objectives/viewpoints with scanning: One is the 'information user' viewpoint. Someone who just needs the content of a manual while fixing some piece of old tech gear. A visually accurate and clean copy, good photo capture etc, is nice, but not essential. I'm sympathetic to this case, since I use scanned manuals like this a lot too. A fairly crappy copy is still usable. The other viewpoint is the archivist/historian/cultural preservator. In this case much more that mere readability is important. The basic aim is to preserve the creative quality and spirit of the work, as well as its data content. Ideally the capture technology and file format should be capable of supporting reprinting (given ideal print technology) physical copies indistinguishable from the original (to the human eye and touch.) Think about it from the viewpoint of someone 500 or a 1000 years in the future. Do you want those descendents to think all the manuals from the 1900-2000s were crappy looking fax mode B&W jaggy garbage? That there were no such things as the visually beautiful service manuals, that people put so much effort into producing? Have you ever held a fat HP/Tektronix/Sony service manual in your hands, and marvelled at the beautiful high-resolution massive foldouts? Don't you want anyone to have that experience in the far future? I take the second position. I think almost all of the current scanning efforts, even massive ones like bitsavers (and the PDF format) are seriously inadequate in a technical sense. With people putting in that effort, that's fine. It does produce 'usable' copies online, and that's good. Especially if the process is non-destructive. It can just be done again later when better tech is available. When the scanning process involves destruction of the original work... if a common document, ho hum. But if it's a rare document, or even maybe so rare that it's the last one, then destroying it now just to produce a digital copy inadequate to the aims of cultural preservation - that's a crime. One right up there with genocide, contamination of entire countries with DU munitions, destruction of libraries and museums, ecological mass destruction, etc. I'm totally in favor of people scanning whatever they have. Only please, start with the common works, for practice. If you have rare documents, only experiment on them with non-destructive methods. Be patient. If you are having physical storage space problems, give the precious old documents to someone who can continue to preserve them. Scanning technology continues to improve. Unless a document is falling apart due to age, acid paper etc, it can wait. Relevant: http://everist.org/NobLog/20190223_full_spectrum.htm#golden Guy From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat Jul 20 19:45:24 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 18:45:24 -0600 Subject: dBase IV for VAX/VMS (was WordPerfect 5.1+ for VMS) In-Reply-To: References: <82bd40fd-7225-4ecd-4b70-40d128e64b0f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <874BFC64-1E79-4334-A5F9-08BA34A92470@avanthar.com> <04f9a14c-09fa-5674-df18-12291eb74631@dittman.net> <686CEEF6-3CDB-4260-AB79-86A78B7E864D@avanthar.com> <32cf95f0-1133-6172-71c9-b3d5f5c4532a@ntlworld.com> <022d01d53f37$d584d0a0$808e71e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 7/20/19 2:37 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > I never could figure out why would anybody need dbase IV when RMS was > built into the VAX file system? Compatibility with other dbase files from other platforms that didn't have RMS? -- Grant. . . . unix || die From barythrin at gmail.com Sat Jul 20 19:54:00 2019 From: barythrin at gmail.com (John Herron) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 19:54:00 -0500 Subject: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> <2aed084b-560a-4f87-c5a9-f898d487fd0b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Sigh. I searched for retro and vintage computer shops in Dallas as I was there the last two weeks. This place I think did come up but with no real pictures or info I couldn't tell if it was legit. Oh well. Maybe I'll make my way back before they close if they open doors for looking around. I went to Perot museum looking for their vintage computers but didn't see any and I think most staff members are too young to remember the museum having any. (bust). However the national gaming museum wasn't bad. Smallish but they did a great job having systems up and running for folks to touch and play on. Kudos to them for supporting the interactive experience. From sales at elecplus.com Sat Jul 20 21:24:40 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 21:24:40 -0500 Subject: Computer Reset shop, liquidation. (USA) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190717130430.00e33430@mail.optusnet.com.au> <2aed084b-560a-4f87-c5a9-f898d487fd0b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <212c5805-eae4-5440-492b-dcd9a878bcda@elecplus.com> Wish you would have told me. There are several that I could have told you where to find. Cindy On 7/20/19 7:54 PM, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > Sigh. I searched for retro and vintage computer shops in Dallas as I was > there the last two weeks. This place I think did come up but with no real > pictures or info I couldn't tell if it was legit. > > Oh well. Maybe I'll make my way back before they close if they open doors > for looking around. > > I went to Perot museum looking for their vintage computers but didn't see > any and I think most staff members are too young to remember the museum > having any. (bust). > > However the national gaming museum wasn't bad. Smallish but they did a > great job having systems up and running for folks to touch and play on. > Kudos to them for supporting the interactive experience. From guykd at optusnet.com.au Sat Jul 20 22:00:03 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 13:00:03 +1000 Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> I'm posting a private email (anonymized) and my reply because it's a significant issue. >{Note private reply} > > > When the scanning process involves destruction of the original work > > ... But if it's a rare document, or even maybe so rare that it's the > > last one, then destroying it now just to produce a digital copy > > inadequate to the aims of cultural preservation - that's a crime. > > One right up there with genocide > >While I agree that making a non-optimal digital copy in such cases, is, >well, non-optimal (because for _many uses_, the basic information is still >available, wheras for many important documents, not even that remains), >there's no way it's "right up there with genocide" - and if you really >think so, you definitely need to examine your sense of scale, because it's >seriously defective. > > [name removed] I agree that when historical documents are lost without even any kind of digital copy made, that's the worst. However I was pretty careful to preceded that quoted paragraph with conditionals. Specifically referring to a case where someone has a rare work, that isn't in danger of falling apart, and there's no good reason why they couldn't wait till better scanning methods became available, and they destroy it to produce a crappy quality digital image. Thus ensuring there can never be a high quality digital copy and the rare physical original is forever gone. That's criminal. A high level crime against humankind. Where it's done in bulk to entire collections, it _is_ the cultural equivalent of genocide. I don't care if you disagree. Could it be that you are upset because you do this (destroy docs), and don't like to be accused of being a criminal? I am sure that the future WON'T take your position on this. They are going to be sooo pissed, that so many old works were destroyed and all they have left is crappy quality horrible-looking two-tone scans. This is _already_ the case with many electronics instrument manuals. There are so many people who think that the physical manuscript is unimportant, and nothing matters other than posting a minimally readable smallest-possible-file online, with the least effort and so it's OK to destroy the original for convenience. Private reply noted. Still going to repost on the list, as from anon. Guy From guykd at optusnet.com.au Sat Jul 20 22:47:45 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 13:47:45 +1000 Subject: Scanning Results In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190721134745.012324e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 11:41 PM 19/07/2019 -0600, you wrote: >OK. I've done the first of the manuals I have. Thanks for all the helpful >hints. > >I took apart the Rainbow User's Manual's metal spiral spine. I scanned it >with scansnap and ran it through the indexing function. I think I tweaked >the settings in a reasonable way. > >The results look good to my eye, but I'm not 100% sure, so I thought I'd >post it here for feedback: > >https://people.freebsd.org/~imp/EK-P100E-OM-001_Rainbow_100_Owner's_Manual-Nov-1982.pdf Congratulations, that is nicely done. I like the way you took the trouble to keep the purple ink on some page's LED diagrams, and the cover images. I'm not fond of that two-tone encoding of B&W text, but that is an artifact of PDF. (Unless you go to ridiculous bits/pixel formats, ie large file sizes.) Since PDF does not allow inclusion of images encoded as PNG. And PNG does the best B&W text image compression, in run-length encoded 4 bits/pixel grayscale. Which preserves character and line edges very nicely, while still achieving better file compression. I wish I knew why ISO and Adobe never updated PDF to include PNG images. It's one of the worst failings in PDF. Just that one alone makes PDF unacceptable. :) Maybe because trying to type the right one (PDF vs PNG) is really error prone? When you scanned the pages, what was the raw save format? (If any.) If it was any format like RGB/24, or indexed 256 color, did you keep the raw files? >Second, how do I submit this to bitkeepers? I've looked around and don't >see how. maybe I'm just being blind... http://www.bitsavers.org/ bitkeepers is something else. The site's contact email is right down the bottom of the front page. Visual, to stop spambots. Also Al posts here in cctalk. Guy From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jul 20 23:05:57 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 21:05:57 -0700 Subject: Scanning Results In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190721134745.012324e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20190721134745.012324e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <217cc001-aa6d-869d-cbf0-41e3ae2e9203@bitsavers.org> > I wish I knew why ISO and Adobe never updated PDF to include PNG images. The pdf format supports png just fine. A modified version of Eric Smith's tumble accepts png as input. The Tektronix color catalog scans on bitsavers were scanned as pngs From pbirkel at gmail.com Sun Jul 21 00:48:20 2019 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 01:48:20 -0400 Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <081a01d53f87$e7ab3670$b701a350$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy Dunphy via cctalk Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2019 11:00 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) I'm posting a private email (anonymized) and my reply because it's a significant issue. >{Note private reply} > > > When the scanning process involves destruction of the original work > > ... But if it's a rare document, or even maybe so rare that it's the > > last one, then destroying it now just to produce a digital copy > > inadequate to the aims of cultural preservation - that's a crime. > > One right up there with genocide > >While I agree that making a non-optimal digital copy in such cases, is, >well, non-optimal (because for _many uses_, the basic information is still >available, wheras for many important documents, not even that remains), >there's no way it's "right up there with genocide" - and if you really >think so, you definitely need to examine your sense of scale, because it's >seriously defective. > > [name removed] I agree that when historical documents are lost without even any kind of digital copy made, that's the worst. However I was pretty careful to preceded that quoted paragraph with conditionals. Specifically referring to a case where someone has a rare work, that isn't in danger of falling apart, and there's no good reason why they couldn't wait till better scanning methods became available, and they destroy it to produce a crappy quality digital image. Thus ensuring there can never be a high quality digital copy and the rare physical original is forever gone. That's criminal. A high level crime against humankind. Where it's done in bulk to entire collections, it _is_ the cultural equivalent of genocide. I don't care if you disagree. Could it be that you are upset because you do this (destroy docs), and don't like to be accused of being a criminal? I am sure that the future WON'T take your position on this. They are going to be sooo pissed, that so many old works were destroyed and all they have left is crappy quality horrible-looking two-tone scans. This is _already_ the case with many electronics instrument manuals. There are so many people who think that the physical manuscript is unimportant, and nothing matters other than posting a minimally readable smallest-possible-file online, with the least effort and so it's OK to destroy the original for convenience. Private reply noted. Still going to repost on the list, as from anon. Guy ----- If I may summarize/generalize, Guy, I think that your point is that there are Technical Artifacts and there are Cultural Artifacts -- and the two sets overlap to some degree. Where the overlap lies is subject to great debate, IMO. Most of us probably wouldn't destroy a Cultural Artifact (e.g., Taliban destruction of Buddha of Bamiyan statue) but many might destroy a Technical Artifact in the belief that its overt information content defines its value, and that one that value has been captured digitally the Technical Artifact effectively lives on in that form. The corpus is merely that ... At what point do you believe that a "mere" Technical Artifact becomes a Cultural one -- where the latter presumptively comes accompanied by a Requirement to Preserve? Being the "last known survivor" of a particular piece of hardcopy seems both an inadequate basis for determination in general, and operationally it's a pretty weak method since "last known" becomes dependent on a Registry of sorts (and likely requires good provenance to preclude forgeries, else expect a flood of ACTUAL TELETYPE REPORT OF APOLLO MOON LANDING ... :->). In your perspective is Artistic Merit an important consideration in determining Cultural value, and thus Requirement to Preserve? How does one judge that? As much as I like hardcopy Technical Artifacts for various reasons, I have difficulty with the concept that all hardcopy, even the very last known original, is worth (in the ROI sense, to include proper archiving and maintenance) preserving. I'm reminded a bit of "A Canticle for Leibowitz"! paul From ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org Sun Jul 21 02:36:27 2019 From: ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org (U'll Be King of the Stars) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 08:36:27 +0100 Subject: Sci-fi and science fiction [was Re: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?)] In-Reply-To: <081a01d53f87$e7ab3670$b701a350$@gmail.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <081a01d53f87$e7ab3670$b701a350$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3c0afdbf-2831-9806-2e3d-83508a9e6c6e@andrewnesbit.org> On 21/07/2019 06:48, Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote: > I'm reminded a bit of "A Canticle for Leibowitz"! Thank you for the reference. Sci-fi and science fiction are very broad genres that I don't have any particular active fondness for. I want to explore these genres more deeply because I am probably not looking in the places, or not looking in the right way. I like elements of the supernatural and elements of mysticism. I particularly like explorations of character development and relationships as much I like "sci-" or "science". Please could you (Paul or anybody else on this list) recommend a forum or mailing list for fans of sci-fi or science fiction? I'm sure there are many but I've no idea where to start. I would be very grateful. Thank you!! Andrew -- OpenPGP key: EB28 0338 28B7 19DA DAB0 B193 D21D 996E 883B E5B9 From pbirkel at gmail.com Sun Jul 21 02:49:28 2019 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 03:49:28 -0400 Subject: Sci-fi and science fiction [was Re: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?)] In-Reply-To: <3c0afdbf-2831-9806-2e3d-83508a9e6c6e@andrewnesbit.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <081a01d53f87$e7ab3670$b701a350$@gmail.com> <3c0afdbf-2831-9806-2e3d-83508a9e6c6e@andrewnesbit.org> Message-ID: <082401d53f98$d36b4860$7a41d920$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: U'll Be King of the Stars [mailto:ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org] Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2019 3:36 AM To: Paul Birkel; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Sci-fi and science fiction [was Re: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?)] On 21/07/2019 06:48, Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote: > I'm reminded a bit of "A Canticle for Leibowitz"! Thank you for the reference. ... Please could you (Paul or anybody else on this list) recommend a forum or mailing list for fans of sci-fi or science fiction? I'm sure there are many but I've no idea where to start. I would be very grateful. Thank you!! Andrew -- Science Fiction and Fantasy Listserv https://listserv.loc.gov/cgi-bin/wa?A2=SF-LIT;869da1f3.1809 paul From joe at barrera.org Sun Jul 21 05:16:17 2019 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 03:16:17 -0700 Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: I'd suggest that in 2019 when bits are cheap and high-quality scanners nearly as cheap, "crappy quality digital image" is a bit of a straw man. Yes, I've seen plenty of barely-readable or practically unreadable scans, but they were made years or decades ago. What dpi qualifies as not "crappy"? 300dpi? 400? 600? On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 8:00 PM Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > I'm posting a private email (anonymized) and my reply because it's a > significant issue. > > > >{Note private reply} > > > > > When the scanning process involves destruction of the original work > > > ... But if it's a rare document, or even maybe so rare that it's the > > > last one, then destroying it now just to produce a digital copy > > > inadequate to the aims of cultural preservation - that's a crime. > > > One right up there with genocide > > > >While I agree that making a non-optimal digital copy in such cases, is, > >well, non-optimal (because for _many uses_, the basic information is still > >available, wheras for many important documents, not even that remains), > >there's no way it's "right up there with genocide" - and if you really > >think so, you definitely need to examine your sense of scale, because it's > >seriously defective. > > > > [name removed] > > I agree that when historical documents are lost without even any kind of > digital copy made, that's the worst. > > However I was pretty careful to preceded that quoted paragraph with > conditionals. > > Specifically referring to a case where someone has a rare work, that isn't > in danger of falling apart, and there's no good reason why they couldn't > wait till better scanning methods became available, and they destroy it to > produce a crappy quality digital image. Thus ensuring there can never be > a high quality digital copy and the rare physical original is forever gone. > That's criminal. A high level crime against humankind. Where it's done in > bulk to entire collections, it _is_ the cultural equivalent of genocide. > > I don't care if you disagree. > Could it be that you are upset because you do this (destroy docs), and > don't > like to be accused of being a criminal? > I am sure that the future WON'T take your position on this. They are going > to be sooo pissed, that so many old works were destroyed and all they have > left is crappy quality horrible-looking two-tone scans. > > This is _already_ the case with many electronics instrument manuals. There > are > so many people who think that the physical manuscript is unimportant, and > nothing > matters other than posting a minimally readable smallest-possible-file > online, > with the least effort and so it's OK to destroy the original for > convenience. > > Private reply noted. Still going to repost on the list, as from anon. > > Guy > > From joe at barrera.org Sun Jul 21 05:18:08 2019 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 03:18:08 -0700 Subject: Sci-fi and science fiction [was Re: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?)] In-Reply-To: <3c0afdbf-2831-9806-2e3d-83508a9e6c6e@andrewnesbit.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <081a01d53f87$e7ab3670$b701a350$@gmail.com> <3c0afdbf-2831-9806-2e3d-83508a9e6c6e@andrewnesbit.org> Message-ID: I am so tempted to claim that I had a signed first edition copy of *Canticle* but that I tossed it when I got my kindle. On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 12:36 AM U'll Be King of the Stars via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 21/07/2019 06:48, Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote: > > I'm reminded a bit of "A Canticle for Leibowitz"! > > Thank you for the reference. > > Sci-fi and science fiction are very broad genres that I don't have any > particular active fondness for. I want to explore these genres more > deeply because I am probably not looking in the places, or not looking > in the right way. > > I like elements of the supernatural and elements of mysticism. I > particularly like explorations of character development and > relationships as much I like "sci-" or "science". > > Please could you (Paul or anybody else on this list) recommend a forum > or mailing list for fans of sci-fi or science fiction? I'm sure there > are many but I've no idea where to start. I would be very grateful. > Thank you!! > > Andrew > -- > OpenPGP key: EB28 0338 28B7 19DA DAB0 B193 D21D 996E 883B E5B9 > From guykd at optusnet.com.au Sun Jul 21 10:04:59 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 01:04:59 +1000 Subject: Scanning Results In-Reply-To: <217cc001-aa6d-869d-cbf0-41e3ae2e9203@bitsavers.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20190721134745.012324e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190721134745.012324e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190722010459.0122bf50@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 09:05 PM 20/07/2019 -0700, Al wrote: > >> I wish I knew why ISO and Adobe never updated PDF to include PNG images. > >The pdf format supports png just fine. Oh does it! The texts say it doesn't, and it definitely didn't originally. Maybe the change is in one of the more recent ISO standards since ISO 32000-1:2008 ? (That cost many hundreds of dollars so I don't have them.) >A modified version of Eric Smith's tumble accepts png as input. I hadn't heard of that one. Something to have a look at. My, google tries *really* hard to make me look at 'Eric Smith tumblr' But actually: http://tumble.brouhaha.com/ No mention there of PNG files, as of 2017. https://github.com/brouhaha/tumble Last update Dec 2017. Says: README: tumble: build a PDF file from image files Copyright 2003-2017 Eric Smith Tumble is a utility to construct PDF files from one or more image files. Supported input image file formats are JPEG, and black and white TIFF (single- or multi-page). Black and white images will be encoded in the PDF output using lossless Group 4 fax compression (ITU-T recommendation T.6). This provides a very good compression ratio for text and line art. JPEG images will be preserved with the original coding. The current version of Tumble will only work on little-endian systems, such as x86, VAX, and Alpha. The byte order dependencies will be fixed in a later release. ---- Still no mention of PNG. Modied by who/where? Do you have a link? The ISO 32000-1:2008 in Table 6 defines the PDF compression methods, that can be applied to 'streams' (ie binary data blocks, including images.) See PDF_32000_2008_table_6_700_gray_16.png This and other files mentioned below, at http://everist.org/png-pdf Point being, that PDF internally does not allow foreign image encodings, otherwise how would PDF viewers deal with them? You can pass a PDF constructor an image in any format the constructor can understand, then it will re-encode using one of the defined PDF stream compression methods. Or you can use a pure binary stream 'attachment', but then the reader doesn't know it's an image. >The Tektronix color catalog scans on bitsavers were scanned as pngs Looking at this one (because it's one I happened to pick a paper copy off my shelf): http://bitsavers.org/pdf/tektronix/catalog/Tektronix_Catalog_1975.pdf Taking page physical 52, PDF #58 (Because I like Tek 7903 scopes) The photoshop CS6 extraction of that page from the PDF is 2550 x 3296 px. I saved it as PNG 24 bit, file size is 6,744 KB. File Tektronix_Catalog_1975-58.png This is not the compressed image size inside the pdf. Without a PDF analysis tool that would be really tedious to determine. Ditto the compression format. Of course Photoshop is not going to tell you. Enlarging in photoshop, the image has definitely been JPG encoded in the PDF, as it has the typical JPG edge noise on characters. File image_jpg_artifacts.png No way your scanner produced that. Important point there. You may have passed your PDF creator a PNG image, but in the PDF it was re-encoded as JPG. Other issues: * Bleed through of print on other side of paper. Cure: Use a black backing sheet. * A lot of shading in the 'white' paper. Inflates file size. Cure: set scanner curves correctly. * Plenty of specking. Cure: scanner curve, plus manual touchup in photoshop. * The crop frame is off the page edges. I scanned the same page from my paper copy, at 300 DPI, black backing, to PNG-24. Result: file 7903_02.png 3221 x 4349 px. File 5,249 KB (BTW 300 DPI is a bit too little for the screened images.) Notice higher res compared to the PDF image, but already smaller file. Just by having cleaner 'white'. Did manual touchup in photoshop. Mostly to get rid of some remaining shading & specks in white. Summary: select color ranges of black and blue text, add a block for the image, expand 2 px, invert sel, fill with pure white. Paint a few remaining specks. Select the screened image block, blur 1.8 px radius to kill screening dots. Yes, I'm aware this is tedious, and no I don't know of a way to automate it. Because it needs to be fine tuned every time. So I'm also aware this is not practical for bulk scanning. Just demonstrating contrasts. Then scale to 2550 H. (vert now 3443, different due to PDF vers wider crop.) Save as PNG 24 bit. File: 3,675 KB. file: 7903_06_2550_24.png Vastly better quality than the PDF version, already about half the file size. If the page was only black text, we could now save in PNG 4 bits/px grayscale. But it has color and and shaded image. So choose 8 bit/px indexed. File: 7903_06_2550_8.png Absolutely no visible difference, but now the saved file is reduced to 1,058 KB. Starting again with the clean full size scan, reduce to 1200 x 1620, (a good screen size) and 8 bit/px indexed. (Adequate for this page.) Saved file size: 339 KB. File: 7903_07_1200_8.png Btw, I don't suppose anyone has a copy of a utility called PDF Dissector, from Zynamics? Google bought out Zynamics and withdrew the utility from the market, in 2011. Guy From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Jul 21 11:16:54 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 11:16:54 -0500 Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <5D348FF6.7000405@pico-systems.com> On 07/21/2019 05:16 AM, Joseph S. Barrera III via cctalk wrote: > What dpi qualifies as not "crappy"? 300dpi? 400? 600? > > Most of the text of these documents don't need super high resolution. But, some contain hand-drawn schematics where an 11 x 17 original has been shrunk to 8.5 x 11" and hand-written signal labels and part types are VERY small. These need to be scanned at high resolution, with several retries while adjusting the image threshold to make things readable. If they just scan the whole document at a reasonable resolution for text, the schematic will be very much harder to read. Jon From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Jul 21 11:41:22 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 10:41:22 -0600 Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 21, 2019, 4:16 AM Joseph S. Barrera III via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I'd suggest that in 2019 when bits are cheap and high-quality scanners > nearly as cheap, "crappy quality digital image" is a bit of a straw man. > Yes, I've seen plenty of barely-readable or practically unreadable scans, > but they were made years or decades ago. > > What dpi qualifies as not "crappy"? 300dpi? 400? 600? > I just scanned my Rainbow 100 User's Manual at 300, 600 and 1200dpi using the scansnap default settings. You see a jump between 300 and 600, but little difference going on up to 1200 for this material. I posted the 300dpi results and even they are acceptable. Some of the diagrams look heavier than the 600dpi version and at high zoom you see pixelated letters, where the 600 doesn't. The 1200 is hard to see any big difference and takes 4x as long to scan. I think I'll be scanning the remaining rainbow docs at 600dpi. The file is 22MB vs 12MB, so that's worth it. The 1200dpi version was almost 70MB which is starting to get a bit large for a 60 sheet document. The sweet spot seems to be 600dpu, at least for this material. Warner On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 8:00 PM Guy Dunphy via cctalk > > wrote: > > > I'm posting a private email (anonymized) and my reply because it's a > > significant issue. > > > > > > >{Note private reply} > > > > > > > When the scanning process involves destruction of the original > work > > > > ... But if it's a rare document, or even maybe so rare that it's > the > > > > last one, then destroying it now just to produce a digital copy > > > > inadequate to the aims of cultural preservation - that's a crime. > > > > One right up there with genocide > > > > > >While I agree that making a non-optimal digital copy in such cases, is, > > >well, non-optimal (because for _many uses_, the basic information is > still > > >available, wheras for many important documents, not even that remains), > > >there's no way it's "right up there with genocide" - and if you really > > >think so, you definitely need to examine your sense of scale, because > it's > > >seriously defective. > > > > > > [name removed] > > > > I agree that when historical documents are lost without even any kind of > > digital copy made, that's the worst. > > > > However I was pretty careful to preceded that quoted paragraph with > > conditionals. > > > > Specifically referring to a case where someone has a rare work, that > isn't > > in danger of falling apart, and there's no good reason why they couldn't > > wait till better scanning methods became available, and they destroy it > to > > produce a crappy quality digital image. Thus ensuring there can never be > > a high quality digital copy and the rare physical original is forever > gone. > > That's criminal. A high level crime against humankind. Where it's done in > > bulk to entire collections, it _is_ the cultural equivalent of genocide. > > > > I don't care if you disagree. > > Could it be that you are upset because you do this (destroy docs), and > > don't > > like to be accused of being a criminal? > > I am sure that the future WON'T take your position on this. They are > going > > to be sooo pissed, that so many old works were destroyed and all they > have > > left is crappy quality horrible-looking two-tone scans. > > > > This is _already_ the case with many electronics instrument manuals. > There > > are > > so many people who think that the physical manuscript is unimportant, and > > nothing > > matters other than posting a minimally readable smallest-possible-file > > online, > > with the least effort and so it's OK to destroy the original for > > convenience. > > > > Private reply noted. Still going to repost on the list, as from anon. > > > > Guy > > > > > From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Jul 21 13:02:00 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 18:02:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Scanning question In-Reply-To: <5AD96DCC-D679-4D73-80A3-E2DEE5EE58FE@reanimators.org> References: <5AD96DCC-D679-4D73-80A3-E2DEE5EE58FE@reanimators.org> Message-ID: <1868195023.2673857.1563732120449@mail.yahoo.com> thanks? for pointing this? handy? manual out? just got one of these in alas? with out the wall wart? to? charge it... and? the? 16 line? screen? version has is? in a? display but its wall ward is? stored? .... somewhere....anyone? have a? box of these and? wants? to share? let me know.? thanks Ed# In a message dated 7/19/2019 3:13:29 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/portablePlus/45559-90001_Portable_PLUS_Technical_Reference_Manual_Aug1985.pdf From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Jul 21 13:35:05 2019 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 13:35:05 -0500 Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 11:41 AM Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > 600dpi. The file is 22MB vs 12MB, so that's worth it. The 1200dpi version > was almost 70MB which is starting to get a bit large for a 60 sheet > document. The sweet spot seems to be 600dpu, at least for this material. I don't know about the ScanSnap specifically, but I suspect that 1200dpi mode may be interpolated, not true optical 1200. In either case, I've rarely seen any great benefit to using >600, at least on any scanner I've used (my main workhorse now being a Fujitsu fi-5750C). From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Jul 21 13:41:57 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 18:41:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: UNIVAC IBM AND APOLLO - -History --Background References: <1936067982.2673390.1563734517703.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1936067982.2673390.1563734517703@mail.yahoo.com> Great info!https://www.zdnet.com/article/to-the-moon-ibm-and-univac-appollo-11s-integrators/?ftag=TREc64629f&bhid=46856739 From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Jul 21 14:09:54 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 13:09:54 -0600 Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 21, 2019, 12:35 PM Jason T via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 11:41 AM Warner Losh via cctalk > wrote: > > 600dpi. The file is 22MB vs 12MB, so that's worth it. The 1200dpi version > > was almost 70MB which is starting to get a bit large for a 60 sheet > > document. The sweet spot seems to be 600dpu, at least for this material. > > I don't know about the ScanSnap specifically, but I suspect that > 1200dpi mode may be interpolated, not true optical 1200. In either > case, I've rarely seen any great benefit to using >600, at least on > any scanner I've used (my main workhorse now being a Fujitsu > fi-5750C). > ScanSnap is true 1200dpi. At least for black and white. Takes 4x longer to feed through, so it's not some software thing... Warner > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jul 21 14:13:09 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 12:13:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Jul 2019, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > I don't know about the ScanSnap specifically, but I suspect that > 1200dpi mode may be interpolated, not true optical 1200. In either > case, I've rarely seen any great benefit to using >600, at least on > any scanner I've used (my main workhorse now being a Fujitsu > fi-5750C). It's like the difference between laser printing and real typesetting. 'course many people can't see the difference. Below 2400dpi, the characters in the text are not as smooth. Even 300DPI scans of 300DPI are unlikely to be lined up, to keep from getting degradation. From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Jul 21 15:40:11 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 16:40:11 -0400 Subject: dBase IV for VAX/VMS (was WordPerfect 5.1+ for VMS) In-Reply-To: References: <82bd40fd-7225-4ecd-4b70-40d128e64b0f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <874BFC64-1E79-4334-A5F9-08BA34A92470@avanthar.com> <04f9a14c-09fa-5674-df18-12291eb74631@dittman.net> <686CEEF6-3CDB-4260-AB79-86A78B7E864D@avanthar.com> <32cf95f0-1133-6172-71c9-b3d5f5c4532a@ntlworld.com> <022d01d53f37$d584d0a0$808e71e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0256BB6C-0DEB-4A84-814B-F05DEAC95A58@comcast.net> > On Jul 20, 2019, at 8:45 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 7/20/19 2:37 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: >> I never could figure out why would anybody need dbase IV when RMS was built into the VAX file system? > > Compatibility with other dbase files from other platforms that didn't have RMS? Or because RMS isn't a database? Even an ISAM file is a very different beast from a database. Come to think of it, you might deduce this from the fact that DEC built database products on VMS, DBMS (a CODASYL database, whatever that means) as well as RDMS (a relational database, built I think when that concept had just appeared). paul From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Jul 21 15:58:25 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 14:58:25 -0600 Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 1:13 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, 21 Jul 2019, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > > I don't know about the ScanSnap specifically, but I suspect that > > 1200dpi mode may be interpolated, not true optical 1200. In either > > case, I've rarely seen any great benefit to using >600, at least on > > any scanner I've used (my main workhorse now being a Fujitsu > > fi-5750C). > > It's like the difference between laser printing and real typesetting. > 'course many people can't see the difference. > Below 2400dpi, the characters in the text are not as smooth. > Even 300DPI scans of 300DPI are unlikely to be lined up, to keep from > getting degradation. > Yea, but there's an ROI issue, at least for me... I see no added value about 600dpi for the intended use (people having the manuals to troubleshoot/learn the old systems). 300->600 is a bit dubious as well, but in that case the delta in terms of time to do and storage is so small that I think the enhance resolution is worth it... Then again, I have 20 years of bills and such I've scanned in at between 200dpi and 400dpi and for that purpose, those resolutions are fine. I may kick it up to 600dpi + search indexing since I see how I can easily add that and scansnap's OCR isn't terrible (and can actually do the old scans years after the fact, which is nice for the huge unsorted files I end up with when I don't have the time to sort by vendor)... Warner Warner From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Jul 21 16:03:26 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 21:03:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <1391257783.2700788.1563743006214@mail.yahoo.com> IN SCANNING PHOTOS FOR SMECC? IF? LARGE, I SCAN AT 300,? IF? SMALL AND? ?IN CASE? WE? WANT TO MAKE LARGER,? ?SOMETIMES 600. ED# ps 1200 SEENS? TO? GO? NO WHERE EXCEPT? SOMETIME? AD? WEIRDNESS In a message dated 7/21/2019 1:58:45 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 1:13 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, 21 Jul 2019, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > > I don't know about the ScanSnap specifically, but I suspect that > > 1200dpi mode may be interpolated, not true optical 1200.? In either > > case, I've rarely seen any great benefit to using >600, at least on > > any scanner I've used (my main workhorse now being a Fujitsu > > fi-5750C). > > It's like the difference between laser printing and real typesetting. > 'course many people can't see the difference. > Below 2400dpi, the characters in the text are not as smooth. > Even 300DPI scans of 300DPI are unlikely to be lined up, to keep from > getting degradation. > Yea, but there's an ROI issue, at least for me... I see no added value about 600dpi for the intended use (people having the manuals to troubleshoot/learn the old systems). 300->600 is a bit dubious as well, but in that case the delta in terms of time to do and storage is so small that I think the enhance resolution is worth it... Then again, I have 20 years of bills and such I've scanned in at between 200dpi and 400dpi and for that purpose, those resolutions are fine. I may kick it up to 600dpi + search indexing since I see how I can easily add that and scansnap's OCR isn't terrible (and can actually do the old scans years after the fact, which is nice for the huge unsorted files I end up with when I don't have the time to sort by vendor)... Warner Warner From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Jul 21 16:24:48 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 21:24:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <715813829.2718954.1563744288052@mail.yahoo.com> although at 300dpi on? HP laser-jet 3 there were variable? sizes? dots? giving better? curve? fit. a? great selling feature! Made? me $$ (grin)! Ed# In a message dated 7/21/2019 12:13:14 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: It's like the difference between laser printing and real typesetting. 'course many people can't see the difference. Below 2400dpi, the characters in the text are not as smooth From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Jul 21 16:26:59 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 21:26:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) In-Reply-To: <715813829.2718954.1563744288052@mail.yahoo.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <715813829.2718954.1563744288052@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1801397128.2717628.1563744419425@mail.yahoo.com> correction--- be? aware? the? variable? dot? size was on? fonts.... not graphical text In a message dated 7/21/2019 2:24:58 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: although at 300dpi on? HP laser-jet 3 there were variable? sizes? dots? giving better? curve? fit. a? great selling feature! Made? me $$ (grin)! Ed# In a message dated 7/21/2019 12:13:14 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: It's like the difference between laser printing and real typesetting. 'course many people can't see the difference. Below 2400dpi, the characters in the text are not as smooth From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jul 21 16:48:09 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 15:48:09 -0600 Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On 7/21/2019 4:16 AM, Joseph S. Barrera III via cctalk wrote: > I'd suggest that in 2019 when bits are cheap and high-quality scanners > nearly as cheap, "crappy quality digital image" is a bit of a straw man. > Yes, I've seen plenty of barely-readable or practically unreadable scans, > but they were made years or decades ago. > > What dpi qualifies as not "crappy"? 300dpi? 400? 600? It is not the DPI that is problem on some scans, but they used a LOSSY format to store the data. JPEG IS NO! Ben. From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Sun Jul 21 16:54:06 2019 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 14:54:06 -0700 Subject: UNIVAC IBM AND APOLLO - -History --Background In-Reply-To: <1936067982.2673390.1563734517703@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1936067982.2673390.1563734517703.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1936067982.2673390.1563734517703@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 11:42 AM ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > Great info! > https://www.zdnet.com/article/to-the-moon-ibm-and-univac-appollo-11s-integrators/?ftag=TREc64629f&bhid=46856739 > The Boeing Museum of Flight is doing Moon landing events this weekend. The Living Computer Museum is showing an IBM 360/91 maintenance panel wired to a Hercules 360 emulation. The emulator is running Apollo era FORTRAN code to do orbital predictions and display tracking data on a map. The code is taking the International Space Station tracking data and displaying the orbital track and current position in real-time. https://photos.app.goo.gl/YEBcc2dsAPRJXjji7 https://photos.app.goo.gl/FFoJagkS83y3w6fi8 -- Charles From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jul 21 16:57:24 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 15:57:24 -0600 Subject: Scanning Results In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190722010459.0122bf50@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20190721134745.012324e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190721134745.012324e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190722010459.0122bf50@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On 7/21/2019 9:04 AM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > Starting again with the clean full size scan, reduce to 1200 x 1620, (a good screen size) > and 8 bit/px indexed. (Adequate for this page.) Saved file size: 339 KB. > File: 7903_07_1200_8.png Umm I am running 800 x 600 here. I have gone back to smaller screen since FireFox seems to displaying TINY FONTS all the time. I like 80x20 screen sized TEXT. Also different pdf viewers display differently. I read my PDF on Android PDF reader and not every thing displays in the default reader. Umm 74170 ... TTL data book, turn on reader ... look up part.. > Btw, I don't suppose anyone has a copy of a utility called PDF Dissector, from Zynamics? > Google bought out Zynamics and withdrew the utility from the market, in 2011. > > Guy > Ben. From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Jul 21 17:20:48 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 17:20:48 -0500 Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <5D34E540.4060301@pico-systems.com> On 07/21/2019 04:48 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > It is not the DPI that is problem on some scans, but they > used > a LOSSY format to store the data. JPEG IS NO! Yes, ABSOLUTELY! JPEG is designed for things that have smooth tones, like people and outdoor photographs. It is horrible with anything that has sharp contrasts like letter outlines and line drawings. Jon From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Jul 21 17:26:19 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 22:26:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) In-Reply-To: <5D34E540.4060301@pico-systems.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <5D34E540.4060301@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <1749420373.2725181.1563747979033@mail.yahoo.com> we save to 3 formats and sometimes? add a text file format too? the? 3 for each and ALL scans? are tiffjpegpdf with embedded textand sometime a text file ed# In a message dated 7/21/2019 3:20:53 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: On 07/21/2019 04:48 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > It is not the DPI that is problem on some scans, but they > used > a LOSSY format to store the data. JPEG IS NO! Yes, ABSOLUTELY!? JPEG is designed for things that have smooth tones, like people and outdoor photographs.? It is horrible with anything that has sharp contrasts like letter outlines and line drawings. Jon From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jul 21 17:34:37 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 15:34:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) In-Reply-To: <715813829.2718954.1563744288052@mail.yahoo.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <715813829.2718954.1563744288052@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yes, and although it rarely happens, and is just shrugged off as "something didn't go right with that scan", ARTIFACTS can sometimes occur. Oversimplifying a bit, . . . consider the output of a Laserjet "MINUS" or a Laserjet-Plus (CX engine) as being a grid of squares with a circular dot inscribed in them, with open areas in the corners of each square. A LaserJet II (SX engine) is a grid of squares with a dot whose boundary circumscribes the square (and the dots OVERLAP!) Thus, the "newer" model could produce a very solid black, but the earlier one could not give a solid black. If scanning the earlier output at 300DPI, it is POSSIBLE to get the alignment JUST WRONG enough to line up with those gaps in the corners of the squares! VERY RARE, and another scan, with the original moved a thousandth of an inch comes out just fine. I have worked PLENTY with documentation printed on dot matrix printers. And ~30 years ago, some would attempt to do "DeskTop Pulishing" using a 7 pin dot matrix printer! It's normally OK for text, which has a fair amount of implicit context. A bit less so with proper names, where spelling is not previously known. And when it's hard to tell the difference between a '3' and an '8', you have a problem. I'm often grateful to find ANY documentaaion, even if it is barely readable. But, it is a JOY to get high quality scans, or to work from original typeset materials. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com On Sun, 21 Jul 2019, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > although at 300dpi on? HP laser-jet 3 there were variable? sizes? dots? giving better? curve? fit. > > > a? great selling feature! > Made? me $$ (grin)! > Ed# > In a message dated 7/21/2019 12:13:14 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > It's like the difference between laser printing and real typesetting. > 'course many people can't see the difference. > Below 2400dpi, the characters in the text are not as smooth From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jul 21 17:38:54 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 15:38:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <715813829.2718954.1563744288052@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Addendum: that particular source of artifacts won't happen if scanning the 300DPI original with a scan resolution other than 300DPI. > Yes, and although it rarely happens, and is just shrugged off as "something > didn't go right with that scan", ARTIFACTS can sometimes occur. From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Jul 21 17:39:48 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 22:39:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <715813829.2718954.1563744288052@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1181228241.2711704.1563748788480@mail.yahoo.com> not? concerned about? scanning just? ?how? the output looked? for setting type... the? variable? sized? dots were a real? winner.? AND A GREAT SELLER! In a message dated 7/21/2019 3:34:43 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: Yes, and although it rarely happens, and is just shrugged off as "something didn't go right with that scan", ARTIFACTS can sometimes occur. Oversimplifying a bit, . . . consider the output of a Laserjet "MINUS" or a Laserjet-Plus (CX engine) as being a grid of squares with a circular dot inscribed in them, with open areas in the corners of each square. A LaserJet II (SX engine) is a grid of squares with a dot whose boundary circumscribes the square (and the dots OVERLAP!) Thus, the "newer" model could produce a very solid black, but the earlier one could not give a solid black. If scanning the earlier output at 300DPI, it is POSSIBLE to get the alignment JUST WRONG enough to line up with those gaps in the corners of the squares!? VERY RARE, and another scan, with the original moved a thousandth of an inch comes out just fine. I have worked PLENTY with documentation printed on dot matrix printers. And ~30 years ago, some would attempt to do "DeskTop Pulishing" using a 7 pin dot matrix printer! It's normally OK for text, which has a fair amount of implicit context.? A bit less so with proper names, where spelling is not previously known.? And when it's hard to tell the difference between a '3' and an '8', you have a problem. I'm often grateful to find ANY documentaaion, even if it is barely readable. But, it is a JOY to get high quality scans, or to work from original typeset materials. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred? ? ??? ??? cisin at xenosoft.com On Sun, 21 Jul 2019, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > although at 300dpi on? HP laser-jet 3 there were variable? sizes? dots? giving better? curve? fit. > > > a? great selling feature! > Made? me $$ (grin)! > Ed# > In a message dated 7/21/2019 12:13:14 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > It's like the difference between laser printing and real typesetting. > 'course many people can't see the difference. > Below 2400dpi, the characters in the text are not as smooth From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jul 21 17:51:58 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 15:51:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) In-Reply-To: <1181228241.2711704.1563748788480@mail.yahoo.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <715813829.2718954.1563744288052@mail.yahoo.com> <1181228241.2711704.1563748788480@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yes, the variable sized dots was a significant upgrade from the oversized fixed dots. The oversized fixed dots (LJII) were a significant upgrade from the undersized fixed dots (LJ, LJ+), and made it possible to finally get a solid black. THAT had been a major problem. See the illustrations of text screens in Sybex books 30 years ago. I could not get acceptable quality for white on black text until the LJII. The undersized fixed dots were a significant upgrade from the previous dot matrix printers. ALL great sellers! On Sun, 21 Jul 2019, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > not? concerned about? scanning > just? ?how? the output looked? for setting type... the? variable? > sized? dots were a real? winner.? AND A GREAT SELLER! From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 21 18:10:14 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 16:10:14 -0700 Subject: UNIVAC IBM AND APOLLO - -History --Background In-Reply-To: <1936067982.2673390.1563734517703@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1936067982.2673390.1563734517703.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1936067982.2673390.1563734517703@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9c9ffe36-2f17-45f8-060b-d82010fb340b@sydex.com> On 7/21/19 11:41 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > Great info!https://www.zdnet.com/article/to-the-moon-ibm-and-univac-appollo-11s-integrators/?ftag=TREc64629f&bhid=46856739 Since I'm just winding up (I hope!) archiving a batch of tapes from JPL from the 60s and 70s, I might toss in a word or two. The bulk of tapes that I see from between 1968-81 are 7-track 800 bpi odd-parity, often with the notation "Univac 1108" or "Univac 1100". After about mid 1981, the tapes tend to be 9 track 1600 PE ones, even if from Univac 1100 36-bit gear. Text is all Fieldata. The Lunar orbiter (1966-67) selenodesy tapes that I processed originated on IBM 7094 gear, so probably 729-IV drives. There are exceptions. The tape from the Galilean moon radar experiments conducted from Arecibo (ca. 1975-76) is a short-record (ca. 128 characters) 200 bpi 7 track even-parity tape in IBM BCD (think 1401). Labels on some unprocessed tapes hint at data from other Jovian satellites. There are also several card-image tapes (even parity) that I haven't examined. There are others--I've only described the tapes that tickled my fancy and got my attention. Doubtless there are some real gems buried in the unexamined tapes. Sadly, most of the tape labels limit themselves to the owner/programmer, tape number and date, so you get what you get. Please don't ask for the data--that belongs to JPL and I'm not at liberty to release that, nor the physical tapes. What's surprising is how well these crusty old beggars read. JPL used the cr*p out of their tapes, with some tapes having the first 600' removed (tapes wear from BOT, so re-certifying involved discarding a sufficient amount of tape from the front of the reel and applying a new BOT marker. Keeps me off the streets, it does. FWIW, Chuck From nw.johnson at ieee.org Sun Jul 21 19:12:59 2019 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 20:12:59 -0400 Subject: UNIVAC IBM AND APOLLO - -History --Background In-Reply-To: <9c9ffe36-2f17-45f8-060b-d82010fb340b@sydex.com> References: <1936067982.2673390.1563734517703.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1936067982.2673390.1563734517703@mail.yahoo.com> <9c9ffe36-2f17-45f8-060b-d82010fb340b@sydex.com> Message-ID: 800 bpi, bloody luxury. I was an FE on a Univac 418 installation, the Uniservo VI C drives that we used had three choices, 200, 556, and 800.?? We had to extract billing data daily to send to head office, I think they had an IBM 360 that read them, and we had to check alignment every month against an IBM standard tape.? We frequently used visi-mag to check it visually in the maintenance room over coffee. Fun days! cheers, Nigel Johnson On 21/07/2019 19:10, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 7/21/19 11:41 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: >> Great info!https://www.zdnet.com/article/to-the-moon-ibm-and-univac-appollo-11s-integrators/?ftag=TREc64629f&bhid=46856739 > Since I'm just winding up (I hope!) archiving a batch of tapes from JPL > from the 60s and 70s, I might toss in a word or two. > > The bulk of tapes that I see from between 1968-81 are 7-track 800 bpi > odd-parity, often with the notation "Univac 1108" or "Univac 1100". > After about mid 1981, the tapes tend to be 9 track 1600 PE ones, even if > from Univac 1100 36-bit gear. Text is all Fieldata. > > The Lunar orbiter (1966-67) selenodesy tapes that I processed originated > on IBM 7094 gear, so probably 729-IV drives. > > There are exceptions. The tape from the Galilean moon radar experiments > conducted from Arecibo (ca. 1975-76) is a short-record (ca. 128 > characters) 200 bpi 7 track even-parity tape in IBM BCD (think 1401). > Labels on some unprocessed tapes hint at data from other Jovian satellites. > > There are also several card-image tapes (even parity) that I haven't > examined. > > There are others--I've only described the tapes that tickled my fancy > and got my attention. Doubtless there are some real gems buried in the > unexamined tapes. Sadly, most of the tape labels limit themselves to > the owner/programmer, tape number and date, so you get what you get. > > Please don't ask for the data--that belongs to JPL and I'm not at > liberty to release that, nor the physical tapes. > > What's surprising is how well these crusty old beggars read. JPL used > the cr*p out of their tapes, with some tapes having the first 600' > removed (tapes wear from BOT, so re-certifying involved discarding a > sufficient amount of tape from the front of the reel and applying a new > BOT marker. > > Keeps me off the streets, it does. > > FWIW, > Chuck -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From guykd at optusnet.com.au Sun Jul 21 19:44:40 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 10:44:40 +1000 Subject: Scanning Results In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190722010459.0122bf50@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190721134745.012324e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190721134745.012324e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190722010459.0122bf50@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190722104440.00ddddf8@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 03:57 PM 21/07/2019 -0600, you wrote: >On 7/21/2019 9:04 AM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > >> Starting again with the clean full size scan, reduce to 1200 x 1620, (a good screen size) >> and 8 bit/px indexed. (Adequate for this page.) Saved file size: 339 KB. >> File: 7903_07_1200_8.png > >Umm I am running 800 x 600 here. I have gone back to smaller >screen since FireFox seems to displaying TINY FONTS all the time. You know all browsers and PDF utils have adjustable zoom, right? Pretty sure you can also set the default zoom. And in many cases can specify 'fit page to screen.' Maybe that's why your tiny fonts problem? Anyway, not relevant. I should have been more precise. 1200 H px is a good resolution for presenting text pages since it adequately preserves typical fonts. 1000 is still just OK, 800 is bare minimum, fails for fine print. Much higher than 1200 is overkill, though if you want to, why not... With finer diagrams higher res can be necessary. >I like 80x20 screen sized TEXT. Also different pdf viewers display >differently. I read my PDF on Android PDF reader and not every thing >displays in the default reader. > >Umm 74170 ... TTL data book, turn on reader ... look up part.. Btw, when you're doing parts lookup a lot, a 2nd screen is a great boon. If you're using a desktop machine. Guy From guykd at optusnet.com.au Sun Jul 21 21:07:27 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 12:07:27 +1000 Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) In-Reply-To: <081a01d53f87$e7ab3670$b701a350$@gmail.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190722120727.00ddddf8@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 01:48 AM 21/07/2019 -0400, Paul Birkel wrote: >If I may summarize/generalize, Guy, I think that your point is that there >are Technical Artifacts and there are Cultural Artifacts -- and the two sets >overlap to some degree. Where the overlap lies is subject to great debate, >IMO. Indeed. Complicating factors are: * Technical artifacts/documents can be essential tools, required to maintain other things, of either interest, or actual critical dependencies of activities. * The boundary of what tech items are *important* can shift depending on large scale economic/cultural events. In certain potentially possible future scenarios, they may shift a *lot*. Someone jokingly mentioned the 'John Titor searching for a specific old computer' legend, but such scenarios (minus the time travel) are quite conceivable. * As opposed to cultural items, tech items have an extra attribute: still works or not. Which is very important. Unless they are demonstrably working, understanding of their functions and use can become mythologised, and lose veracity and context. These are much less likely to apply to purely cultural artefacts. No one is going to die, or starve, or whatever, if say the Mona Lisa was lost. I recommend a book "The collapse of complex societies" by Tainter. >Most of us probably wouldn't destroy a Cultural Artifact (e.g., Taliban >destruction of Buddha of Bamiyan statue) but many might destroy a Technical >Artifact in the belief that its overt information content defines its value, >and that one that value has been captured digitally the Technical Artifact >effectively lives on in that form. The corpus is merely that ... Even if the digital version _did_ fully capture the information content, I strongly dispute that the physical item/document has lost it's value. That 'digital is all we need' viewpoint is a trap for the naive, because: 1. No one can ever fully trust the validity of any digital work. Trusting such things to be 'true' demonstrates a foolish assumption that there are no hostile actors, who'd ever wish to deceive and mislead. (Shows a collossal blindness to historical reality, and contemporary politics.) 2. Relying on digital records assumes that the human race will never have any kind of 'technical interruption', in which digital storage hardware can't be maintained, with the necessary continual refreshing and updating. Ever tried to get a 20 year old hard disk going and recover the data? _Sometimes_ it's possible, if it was stored in perfect conditions. Flash memory, EPROMS, CDs, DVDs, etc, all are ephemeral. >At what point do you believe that a "mere" Technical Artifact becomes a >Cultural one -- where the latter presumptively comes accompanied by a >Requirement to Preserve? Now we get to a critical point. There's no chance of defining any specific cutoff criteria. It's a question on which everyone will always differ. And this is why 'centralization is bad.' If remaining technical historical artefacts/books are allowed to be gathered into central archives, then it's only a matter of time before those items will be destroyed. Accidents, deliberate subversion, stupidity, financial upsets, natural disasters... But most often by some official unilaterally deciding 'these items are not worth preserving.' Museums are OK, and it's good to make things publicly viewable, but only if there are _many_. The best way to preserve any kind of history (tech or cultural) is for the physical items to remain many and well distributed among private individuals who value them. Then even in the event of some kind of widespread pogrom (not inconceivable with today's insane Leftist herd mentality developments) there will be people who quietly preserve things. In such times any kind of public museum/library institutions are toast. (And btw my wife lived through the Pol Pot genocide in Cambodia, don't argue with me on this one. Or I will tell you some stories that will give you nightmares.) The necessity to preserve multiple redundancy, is why destroying a hardcopy of a 'rare-ish' manual in order to scan it, is so bad. Especially when the tendency to do that has become widespread, so there's a high rate of attrition of whatever do remain in private hands. >Being the "last known survivor" of a particular piece of hardcopy seems both >an inadequate basis for determination in general, and operationally it's a >pretty weak method since "last known" becomes dependent on a Registry of >sorts (and likely requires good provenance to preclude forgeries, else >expect a flood of ACTUAL TELETYPE REPORT OF APOLLO MOON LANDING ... :->). There can never be such a registry, and even to try making one would be unwise since it just creates a 'burn list' for anyone who decided to wipe parts of history. The term 'last known survivor' is short hand for 'Gee I can't find any references to others of this item/book.' There probably are some, just not visible. And that's as it should be. For eg I have a quite old book, that a specific national group would greatly prefer did not exist. Since it destroys a foundation of their lying political narative. There is ONE reference I can find to another copy, and that's in the stack of a major public library. It's one of the top items on my 'to scan' list, once I have the capability to scan fat books without damaging them. In the meantime, it shall remain nameless. Others may have copies. No way to tell. I have to assume that my copy might be, or become, the last. >In your perspective is Artistic Merit an important consideration in >determining Cultural value, and thus Requirement to Preserve? How does one >judge that? Like Art. One knows it when it is encountered. A totally personal call. And this is good, because it preserves diversity of content. >As much as I like hardcopy Technical Artifacts for various reasons, I have >difficulty with the concept that all hardcopy, even the very last known >original, is worth (in the ROI sense, to include proper archiving and >maintenance) preserving. Well you should take that up with your great-great-great grandchildren, when they want to know what today's tech (and its manuals) were really like. >I'm reminded a bit of "A Canticle for Leibowitz"! A great story. But also an example of how off the rails a single institution can go, in terms of preserving information about technology. Without working examples. BTW. I have three IBM 026 card punch machines as a future restoration project. But can I find a service manual? No. None online, only one for the later 028. And even if there was a PDF I expect it would be the usual terrible quality. Does anyone have a physical copy they would sell? Or as my last resort, loan? Ditto for a service/schematics manual for the Documation TM200 punch card reader. No copy can be found. Guy From sales at elecplus.com Sun Jul 21 21:50:43 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 21:50:43 -0500 Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190722120727.00ddddf8@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190722120727.00ddddf8@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: Send an email to a11anmah0n2y at gmail.com for the 026 manual. He has 029s, as well as the service manual for the 029. He has a friend who worked on all these machines until the early 2000s. He will give you the fellow's email address for the 026 info you want. Cindy On 7/21/19 9:07 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > At 01:48 AM 21/07/2019 -0400, Paul Birkel wrote: > >> If I may summarize/generalize, Guy, I think that your point is that there >> are Technical Artifacts and there are Cultural Artifacts -- and the two sets >> overlap to some degree. Where the overlap lies is subject to great debate, >> IMO. > Indeed. Complicating factors are: > * Technical artifacts/documents can be essential tools, required to maintain > other things, of either interest, or actual critical dependencies of activities. > > * The boundary of what tech items are *important* can shift depending on > large scale economic/cultural events. In certain potentially possible > future scenarios, they may shift a *lot*. Someone jokingly mentioned the > 'John Titor searching for a specific old computer' legend, but such scenarios > (minus the time travel) are quite conceivable. > > * As opposed to cultural items, tech items have an extra attribute: still works or not. > Which is very important. Unless they are demonstrably working, understanding of > their functions and use can become mythologised, and lose veracity and context. > > These are much less likely to apply to purely cultural artefacts. > No one is going to die, or starve, or whatever, if say the Mona Lisa was lost. > I recommend a book "The collapse of complex societies" by Tainter. > > >> Most of us probably wouldn't destroy a Cultural Artifact (e.g., Taliban >> destruction of Buddha of Bamiyan statue) but many might destroy a Technical >> Artifact in the belief that its overt information content defines its value, >> and that one that value has been captured digitally the Technical Artifact >> effectively lives on in that form. The corpus is merely that ... > Even if the digital version _did_ fully capture the information content, I > strongly dispute that the physical item/document has lost it's value. > That 'digital is all we need' viewpoint is a trap for the naive, because: > > 1. No one can ever fully trust the validity of any digital work. > Trusting such things to be 'true' demonstrates a foolish assumption that > there are no hostile actors, who'd ever wish to deceive and mislead. > (Shows a collossal blindness to historical reality, and contemporary politics.) > > 2. Relying on digital records assumes that the human race will never have > any kind of 'technical interruption', in which digital storage hardware > can't be maintained, with the necessary continual refreshing and updating. > Ever tried to get a 20 year old hard disk going and recover the data? > _Sometimes_ it's possible, if it was stored in perfect conditions. > Flash memory, EPROMS, CDs, DVDs, etc, all are ephemeral. > > >> At what point do you believe that a "mere" Technical Artifact becomes a >> Cultural one -- where the latter presumptively comes accompanied by a >> Requirement to Preserve? > Now we get to a critical point. > There's no chance of defining any specific cutoff criteria. It's a question on which > everyone will always differ. And this is why 'centralization is bad.' If remaining > technical historical artefacts/books are allowed to be gathered into central archives, > then it's only a matter of time before those items will be destroyed. Accidents, deliberate > subversion, stupidity, financial upsets, natural disasters... But most often by some > official unilaterally deciding 'these items are not worth preserving.' > Museums are OK, and it's good to make things publicly viewable, but only if there are _many_. > > The best way to preserve any kind of history (tech or cultural) is for the physical items > to remain many and well distributed among private individuals who value them. Then even > in the event of some kind of widespread pogrom (not inconceivable with today's insane > Leftist herd mentality developments) there will be people who quietly preserve things. > In such times any kind of public museum/library institutions are toast. (And btw my wife > lived through the Pol Pot genocide in Cambodia, don't argue with me on this one. Or I will > tell you some stories that will give you nightmares.) > > The necessity to preserve multiple redundancy, is why destroying a hardcopy of a 'rare-ish' > manual in order to scan it, is so bad. Especially when the tendency to do that has become > widespread, so there's a high rate of attrition of whatever do remain in private hands. > > >> Being the "last known survivor" of a particular piece of hardcopy seems both >> an inadequate basis for determination in general, and operationally it's a >> pretty weak method since "last known" becomes dependent on a Registry of >> sorts (and likely requires good provenance to preclude forgeries, else >> expect a flood of ACTUAL TELETYPE REPORT OF APOLLO MOON LANDING ... :->). > There can never be such a registry, and even to try making one would be unwise > since it just creates a 'burn list' for anyone who decided to wipe parts of history. > The term 'last known survivor' is short hand for 'Gee I can't find any references to > others of this item/book.' There probably are some, just not visible. And that's as > it should be. > For eg I have a quite old book, that a specific national group would greatly prefer did > not exist. Since it destroys a foundation of their lying political narative. > There is ONE reference I can find to another copy, and that's in the stack of a major public library. > It's one of the top items on my 'to scan' list, once I have the capability to scan fat books without > damaging them. In the meantime, it shall remain nameless. > Others may have copies. No way to tell. I have to assume that my copy might be, or become, the last. > >> In your perspective is Artistic Merit an important consideration in >> determining Cultural value, and thus Requirement to Preserve? How does one >> judge that? > Like Art. One knows it when it is encountered. A totally personal call. And this is good, > because it preserves diversity of content. > >> As much as I like hardcopy Technical Artifacts for various reasons, I have >> difficulty with the concept that all hardcopy, even the very last known >> original, is worth (in the ROI sense, to include proper archiving and >> maintenance) preserving. > Well you should take that up with your great-great-great grandchildren, when they want to > know what today's tech (and its manuals) were really like. > >> I'm reminded a bit of "A Canticle for Leibowitz"! > A great story. But also an example of how off the rails a single institution can go, in terms > of preserving information about technology. Without working examples. > > > > BTW. I have three IBM 026 card punch machines as a future restoration project. But can I find > a service manual? No. None online, only one for the later 028. And even if there was a PDF > I expect it would be the usual terrible quality. > Does anyone have a physical copy they would sell? Or as my last resort, loan? > > Ditto for a service/schematics manual for the Documation TM200 punch card reader. No copy can be found. > > > Guy > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jul 21 21:58:39 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 19:58:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190722120727.00ddddf8@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190722120727.00ddddf8@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Jul 2019, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: >> Most of us probably wouldn't destroy a Cultural Artifact (e.g., Taliban >> destruction of Buddha of Bamiyan statue) but many might destroy a Technical >> Artifact in the belief that its overt information content defines its value, >> and that one that value has been captured digitally the Technical Artifact >> effectively lives on in that form. The corpus is merely that ... > > Even if the digital version _did_ fully capture the information content, I > strongly dispute that the physical item/document has lost it's value. > That 'digital is all we need' viewpoint is a trap for the naive, because: . . . and does it FULLY capture the information content. One might think so, but much later, somebody asks, "in the number on page 576, is that a '3' or an '8'?" There is always the possibility of a need to go back to prior, or even original forms. > The necessity to preserve multiple redundancy, is why destroying a hardcopy of a 'rare-ish' > manual in order to scan it, is so bad. Especially when the tendency to do that has become > widespread, so there's a high rate of attrition of whatever do remain in private hands. Many arguments are actually based on inadequaate definition of terms. Two people who might actually agree argue based on having different definitions. For example, cutting the spine off of a book can definitely be considered to be DAMAGING the artifact. But do we want to consider that "DESTROYING"? Certainly landfilling once something is scanned is "DESTROYING" (although what was the final result of the landfill salvage of those game cartridges?) But putting the book back on a shelf, without its spine? That may seriously damage cultural aspects, but not necessarily the informational value. And, admittedly, there can be some corner cases, such as if slicing off the binding lost notes scribbled in the margins by an important prior owner. Oh, and when you die, your executor may be quick to discard all of those unbound books. When I die, contact my sister, bring a skip, and offer to do all of the hauling for her at a lower rate than any of the commercial services charge. At some point, most collections end up in the hands of "administrators" with no appreciation for the materials. "And, it is certainly not worth the cost to keep all of this crap!" Another example to keep bringing up - BBC did not think that there would be any further need of the already aired Dostor Who episodes, and could reuse the tape. Besides, "some other department has copies of all of them". There's 100 episodes for which NO copies have been found. It's a big deal when a 16mm B&W print is found in a shed in the outback, or even home 8mm movies of the living room TV screen. From steven at malikoff.com Sun Jul 21 22:38:05 2019 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 03:38:05 -0000 Subject: UNIVAC IBM AND APOLLO - -History --Background In-Reply-To: <1936067982.2673390.1563734517703@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1936067982.2673390.1563734517703.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1936067982.2673390.1563734517703@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <57c1f99ffa185f6a506c7ebe2510a86c.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Ed said > Great info!https://www.zdnet.com/article/to-the-moon-ibm-and-univac-appollo-11s-integrators/?ftag=TREc64629f&bhid=46856739 > Here's an all-employees memo my dad kept about IBM's part in the success of the mission: https://archive.org/details/IBMAustraliaMessageToEmployeesApollo11Success BTW archive.org is a great place to put up scanned documents, in as many dpi as you like. Steve From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Jul 21 22:44:17 2019 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 04:44:17 +0100 Subject: Scanning question In-Reply-To: <1868195023.2673857.1563732120449@mail.yahoo.com> References: <5AD96DCC-D679-4D73-80A3-E2DEE5EE58FE@reanimators.org> <1868195023.2673857.1563732120449@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 7:02 PM ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > thanks for pointing this handy manual out just got one of these in alas with out the wall wart to charge it... and the 16 line screen version has is in a display but its wall ward is stored .... somewhere....anyone have a box of these and wants to share let me know. thanks Ed# > In a message dated 7/19/2019 3:13:29 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/portablePlus/45559-90001_Portable_PLUS_Technical_Reference_Manual_Aug1985.pdf The 16 line display version is the original HP Portable (HP110), not the PortablePlus. They both use the same AC adapter/charger which gives 8V AC. It's the same unit used with the Topcat calculators (HP91, HP92, HP95C, HP97, HP97S) and most of the HPIL peripherals. There were various versions with different input voltages and mains plug connectors but it shouldn't be hard to find one. The Portable and PortablePlus have an internal lead-acid battery. Originally 3 Cyclon cells (2.5Ah) in series, later a Panasonic (IIRC) block. The Cyclon cells are not difficult to get new, so I normally wire 3 of those up, using the terminal plate from the original battery pack. -tony From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Jul 21 23:21:24 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 04:21:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Scanning question In-Reply-To: References: <5AD96DCC-D679-4D73-80A3-E2DEE5EE58FE@reanimators.org> <1868195023.2673857.1563732120449@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <575360378.2796739.1563769284793@mail.yahoo.com> Great to know? Tony!? Yea? the battery? is? dead indeed!? Will the? wallwart power it? even though the battery? is? dead?? Wish? I? could? remember? where I? put the wall warts... missing are the one? for? a? 16 line? portable,? a? disc drive and the? thinkjet printer. Oddly enough the HP 75 we have is missing its? wall wart too!? HP 75? also? uses? the? HIL i/o interface.? will it? know? how to red the? disc? drive?? I? am? missing HP 75? data and catalogs....? Ed# In a message dated 7/21/2019 8:44:22 PM US Mountain Standard Time, ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com writes: On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 7:02 PM ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > thanks? for pointing this? handy? manual out? just got one of these in alas? with out the wall wart? to? charge it... and? the? 16 line? screen? version has is? in a? display but its wall ward is? stored? .... somewhere....anyone? have a? box of these and? wants? to share? let me know.? thanks Ed# > In a message dated 7/19/2019 3:13:29 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/portablePlus/45559-90001_Portable_PLUS_Technical_Reference_Manual_Aug1985.pdf The 16 line display version is the original HP Portable (HP110), not the PortablePlus. They both use the same AC adapter/charger which gives 8V AC. It's the same unit used with the Topcat calculators (HP91, HP92, HP95C, HP97, HP97S) and most of the HPIL peripherals. There were various versions with different input voltages and mains plug connectors but it shouldn't be hard to find one. The Portable and PortablePlus have an internal lead-acid battery. Originally 3 Cyclon cells (2.5Ah) in series, later a Panasonic (IIRC) block. The Cyclon cells are not difficult to get new, so I normally wire 3 of those up, using the terminal plate from the original battery pack. -tony From guykd at optusnet.com.au Sun Jul 21 23:27:34 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 14:27:34 +1000 Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190722120727.00ddddf8@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190722120727.00ddddf8@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190722142734.00df4778@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 07:58 PM 21/07/2019 -0700, you wrote: >> Even if the digital version _did_ fully capture the information content, I >> strongly dispute that the physical item/document has lost it's value. >> That 'digital is all we need' viewpoint is a trap for the naive, because: > >. . . and does it FULLY capture the information content. One might >think so, but much later, somebody asks, "in the number on page 576, is >that a '3' or an '8'?" >There is always the possibility of a need to go back to prior, or even >original forms. Even worse, are you aware of the JBIG2 image compression debacle? Ref at bottom of http://everist.org/NobLog/20130904_Retarded_ideas_in_comp_sci.htm and http://everist.org/NobLog/20131122_an_actual_knob.htm#jbig2 Note this monster is one of the built-in 'features' of PDF. But not PNG. Sounds like lawyers will be disputing whether anything encoded with JBIG2 can be accepted as evidence in court. >Many arguments are actually based on inadequaate definition of terms. Two >people who might actually agree argue based on having different >definitions. > >For example, cutting the spine off of a book can definitely be considered >to be DAMAGING the artifact. But do we want to consider that >"DESTROYING"? It's gray. Bear in mind that loose pages can be lost, or got out of order. And the 'book-nature' is gone. But if you punched and ring-bound them? It's not really important to argue this. Partly because in many cases of spine-removal, the intentionally pages WILL be destroyed afterwards. >Certainly landfilling once something is scanned is "DESTROYING" (although >what was the final result of the landfill salvage of those game >cartridges?) >But putting the book back on a shelf, without its spine? Ha, I have a few old books that have fallen apart on their own, and are on shelves in ziplock plastic bags. They're urgent scans. Maybe I might try repairing them. Years ago I had a treasured childhood book rebound professionally after the spine disintegrated. The Jungle Book, by Kipling. The original before Hollywood ruined it. With illustrations by M & E Detmold. Published 1922. >That may seriously damage cultural aspects, but not necessarily the >informational value. >And, admittedly, there can be some corner cases, such as if slicing off >the binding lost notes scribbled in the margins by an important prior >owner. And ultimately a really old work might become fragments in plastic folders, or palimpsets being x-rayed to recover earlier impressions. But don't let extreme cases divert you from dealing sensibly with the usual circumstances. >Oh, and when you die, your executor may be quick to discard all of those >unbound books. When I die, contact my sister, bring a skip, and offer to >do all of the hauling for her at a lower rate than any of the commercial >services charge. > >At some point, most collections end up in the hands of "administrators" >with no appreciation for the materials. "And, it is certainly not worth >the cost to keep all of this crap!" Yes, this is the biggest problem, in a society in which so few value history. Hard to find trustworthy heirs for collections. Even hampered by the laws. So often the widow just tosses everything, or at best sells it off in bits without much care or understanding. I can think of several examples I've known. Ah well. Hurry up with the immortality tech, I say. Those telomeres aren't going to lengthen themselves. >Another example to keep bringing up - >BBC did not think that there would be any further need of the already >aired Dostor Who episodes, and could reuse the tape. Besides, "some other >department has copies of all of them". There's 100 episodes for which NO >copies have been found. It's a big deal when a 16mm B&W print is found >in a shed in the outback, or even home 8mm movies of the living room TV >screen. In Sydney, a major national TV station (Channel 7, in Epping) had an enormous archive of video master tapes. They held all the culturally iconic Australian broadcasts since the beginning of Television here. I had a friend who worked there. After the place shut down (they moved) and the site sat abandoned for a while, I was among many who enjoyed exploring it. There was a tennis court, in a sort of gulley near the buildings. It had a strange subsidence crack across the middle of the court. My friend told me the story. Beancounters in the company had decided the tapes archive was a waste of resources. So they had the entire contents dumped into that gulley, then covered over with dirt and a tennis court built on top. The site was later sold and built over with hi-rise units. There's also the story of the Apollo program video tapes. NASA threw out or taped over all the orignals. They also deliberately destroyed all the engineering drawings for the Saturn 5. Only by remarkable luck did most of the video recordings survive, and have since been digitized. Guy From sales at elecplus.com Mon Jul 22 01:32:10 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 01:32:10 -0500 Subject: Scanning question In-Reply-To: <575360378.2796739.1563769284793@mail.yahoo.com> References: <5AD96DCC-D679-4D73-80A3-E2DEE5EE58FE@reanimators.org> <1868195023.2673857.1563732120449@mail.yahoo.com> <575360378.2796739.1563769284793@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <66da1549-0a84-5145-2d49-793ecfb99b27@elecplus.com> https://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-82059B-battery-charger-8v-Calculator/123822663871 On 7/21/19 11:21 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > Great to know? Tony!? Yea? the battery? is? dead indeed!? Will the? wallwart power it? even though the battery? is? dead?? Wish? I? could? remember? where I? put the wall warts... missing are the one? for? a? 16 line? portable,? a? disc drive and the? thinkjet printer. > > Oddly enough the HP 75 we have is missing its? wall wart too!? HP 75? also? uses? the? HIL i/o interface.? will it? know? how to red the? disc? drive?? I? am? missing HP 75? data and catalogs....? Ed# > In a message dated 7/21/2019 8:44:22 PM US Mountain Standard Time, ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com writes: > > On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 7:02 PM ED SHARPE via cctalk > wrote: >> thanks? for pointing this? handy? manual out? just got one of these in alas? with out the wall wart? to? charge it... and? the? 16 line? screen? version has is? in a? display but its wall ward is? stored? .... somewhere....anyone? have a? box of these and? wants? to share? let me know.? thanks Ed# >> In a message dated 7/19/2019 3:13:29 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: >> >> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/portablePlus/45559-90001_Portable_PLUS_Technical_Reference_Manual_Aug1985.pdf > The 16 line display version is the original HP Portable (HP110), not > the PortablePlus. > > They both use the same AC adapter/charger which gives 8V AC. It's the > same unit used > with the Topcat calculators (HP91, HP92, HP95C, HP97, HP97S) and most > of the HPIL > peripherals. There were various versions with different input voltages > and mains plug > connectors but it shouldn't be hard to find one. > > The Portable and PortablePlus have an internal lead-acid battery. > Originally 3 Cyclon > cells (2.5Ah) in series, later a Panasonic (IIRC) block. The Cyclon > cells are not > difficult to get new, so I normally wire 3 of those up, using the > terminal plate from > the original battery pack. > > -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jul 22 01:48:53 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 00:48:53 -0600 Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190722120727.00ddddf8@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190722120727.00ddddf8@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On 7/21/2019 8:07 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > BTW. I have three IBM 026 card punch machines as a future restoration project. But can I find > a service manual? No. None online, only one for the later 028. And even if there was a PDF > I expect it would be the usual terrible quality. > Does anyone have a physical copy they would sell? Or as my last resort, loan? > > Ditto for a service/schematics manual for the Documation TM200 punch card reader. No copy can be found. I keep thinking, Do you have PUNCH CARDS for that project? > Guy > What about software develped in the 70's, Contact Prof Smith, in room 231B for source code on paper tape from the HAL 900. Your TAX $$$ at work.? From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Jul 22 02:23:42 2019 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 09:23:42 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Scanning Results In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190721134745.012324e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20190721134745.012324e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Jul 2019, Guy Dunphy wrote: > http://www.bitsavers.org/ bitkeepers is something else. > The site's contact email is right down the bottom of the front page. Visual, to stop spambots. > Also Al posts here in cctalk. Speaking of this, I suggest to rethink the method of submitting scans to bitsavers. I did successfully transfer stuff there in the past, but my last attempts (putting the scans available for downloading, naming them in bitsavers-type file name syntax and writing an email to aek) resulted in nothing. No answer, no uploads to bitsavers, nothing. I did that a couple of times in different intervals, each attempt was futile. I highly appreciate and support bitsavers, I just can't contribute anything. For example, I would think that scans of original HP 98x0 desktop calculator blueprints would be something of interest. So for the moment, I have to keep all my scans local (but accessible). Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Jul 22 02:28:43 2019 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 09:28:43 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Jul 2019, Warner Losh wrote: > I just scanned my Rainbow 100 User's Manual at 300, 600 and 1200dpi using > the scansnap default settings. You see a jump between 300 and 600, but > little difference going on up to 1200 for this material. I posted the That tells me that you need to scan at least at 600 dpi since there are details that would be lost at 300 bpi. Christian From davidkcollins2 at gmail.com Mon Jul 22 02:38:50 2019 From: davidkcollins2 at gmail.com (David Collins) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 17:38:50 +1000 Subject: Scanning Results In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190721134745.012324e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: While Al is working through his backlog, the HP Computer Museum would be happy to put them up in the appropriate device webpages..... They would be a great addition to a site that focuses on vintage HP computing equipment! On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 at 17:23, Christian Corti via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sun, 21 Jul 2019, Guy Dunphy wrote: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/ bitkeepers is something else. > > The site's contact email is right down the bottom of the front page. > Visual, to stop spambots. > > Also Al posts here in cctalk. > > Speaking of this, I suggest to rethink the method of submitting scans to > bitsavers. I did successfully transfer stuff there in the past, but my > last attempts (putting the scans available for downloading, naming them > in bitsavers-type file name syntax and writing an email to aek) resulted > in nothing. No answer, no uploads to bitsavers, nothing. I did that a > couple of times in different intervals, each attempt was futile. > I highly appreciate and support bitsavers, I just can't contribute > anything. For example, I would think that scans of original HP 98x0 > desktop calculator blueprints would be something of interest. > So for the moment, I have to keep all my scans local (but accessible). > > Christian > From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Jul 22 04:11:03 2019 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 11:11:03 +0200 Subject: Scanning Results In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190721134745.012324e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On 2019-07-22 09:23, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, 21 Jul 2019, Guy Dunphy wrote: >> http://www.bitsavers.org/??? bitkeepers is something else. >> The site's contact email is right down the bottom of the front page. >> Visual, to stop spambots. >> Also Al posts here in cctalk. > > Speaking of this, I suggest to rethink the method of submitting scans to > bitsavers. I did successfully transfer stuff there in the past, but my > last attempts (putting the scans available for downloading, naming them > in bitsavers-type file name syntax and writing an email to aek) resulted > in nothing. No answer, no uploads to bitsavers, nothing. Just give him time, he is only human after all ;-) From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Jul 22 04:49:17 2019 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 11:49:17 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Scanning Results In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190721134745.012324e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Jul 2019, it was written > Just give him time, he is only human after all ;-) I know :-) I think I should wait some more years (I found a mail from Feb. 2016, the last was from Aug. 2018) ;-)) Christian From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Mon Jul 22 06:51:25 2019 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 12:51:25 +0100 Subject: Scanning question In-Reply-To: <575360378.2796739.1563769284793@mail.yahoo.com> References: <5AD96DCC-D679-4D73-80A3-E2DEE5EE58FE@reanimators.org> <1868195023.2673857.1563732120449@mail.yahoo.com> <575360378.2796739.1563769284793@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 5:21 AM ED SHARPE wrote: > > Great to know Tony! Yea the battery is dead indeed! Will the wallwart power it even though the battery is dead? Wish I could remember where I put the wall warts... missing are the one for a 16 line portable, a disc drive and the thinkjet printer. I am pretty sure you need a good battery for the machine to work properly on the wall-wart, although (unlike some older HP calculators) it will not be damged by plugging in the wall-wart with a dead battery installed. I think it sort-of powers up, but I forget the details. If you take the HP110 (16 line version) apart, you'll see that there's a PCB the size of the case with the CPU and RAM on it. Mostly RAM. Row after row of 6264's (8K*8 SRAM chips). It's the same wall wart for both types of machine, for the disk drive (either 9114A or 9114B) and the HPIL Thinkjet. As for batteries, the disk drive again has 3 Cyclon cells (or a 6V lead acid 'block' battery) inside the battery pack, the Thinkjet has 6 off Sub-C NiCds. I have plenty of the wall-warts here, but of course the 240V model for the UK. > > Oddly enough the HP 75 we have is missing its wall wart too! HP 75 also uses the HIL i/o interface. will it know how to red the disc drive? I am missing HP 75 data and catalogs.... Ed# It's the same wall-wart again!. The HP75 will run without a battery IIRC. That's the 3 AA NiCd pack that goes right back to the HP35. The HP75 will use the disk drive, but the disks are incompatible between the drive used with the HP75 and the drive used with the HP110 (if you see what I mean). I am sure clever software can get round it, as the hardware is clearly capable of reading/writing both types of disk! There are plenty of manuals, user, service, schematics, etc for all these machines and peripherals over on http://www.hpmuseum.net Be warned there's a lot of fascinating stuff there for many HP computers and you are likely to lose track of time :-) -tony From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Mon Jul 22 06:56:22 2019 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 12:56:22 +0100 Subject: Scanning Results In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190721134745.012324e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 8:23 AM Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > > On Sun, 21 Jul 2019, Guy Dunphy wrote: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/ bitkeepers is something else. > > The site's contact email is right down the bottom of the front page. Visual, to stop spambots. > > Also Al posts here in cctalk. > > Speaking of this, I suggest to rethink the method of submitting scans to > bitsavers. I did successfully transfer stuff there in the past, but my > last attempts (putting the scans available for downloading, naming them > in bitsavers-type file name syntax and writing an email to aek) resulted > in nothing. No answer, no uploads to bitsavers, nothing. I did that a > couple of times in different intervals, each attempt was futile. > I highly appreciate and support bitsavers, I just can't contribute > anything. For example, I would think that scans of original HP 98x0 > desktop calculator blueprints would be something of interest. > So for the moment, I have to keep all my scans local (but accessible). I would agree. A couple of years ago I scanned the manuals for the Trend UDR and HSR500 paper tape readers (these being 'real' manuals with parts lists, schematics, adjustment information, etc). I offered them here, I was ignored. I suspect the scans were not up to 'bitsavers' standards, but I did check they were readable (particularly the schematics). This is in sharp contrast to several other (technical, but not computer) groups I deal with who have attitude that any information is better than nothing. If a better scan turns up, or more information turns up, or.. they update things. But they are glad of any information on the grounds that even one section from a manual (or jsut the schematics pages or..) can be useful. So essentially I no longer offer stuff here. -tony > Christian From imp at bsdimp.com Mon Jul 22 07:53:10 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 06:53:10 -0600 Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 22, 2019, 1:28 AM Christian Corti via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sun, 21 Jul 2019, Warner Losh wrote: > > I just scanned my Rainbow 100 User's Manual at 300, 600 and 1200dpi using > > the scansnap default settings. You see a jump between 300 and 600, but > > little difference going on up to 1200 for this material. I posted the > > That tells me that you need to scan at least at 600 dpi since there are > details that would be lost at 300 bpi. > Pixels would be lost, sure, but not enough to make any of the drawings unreadable... The 1200 dpi scans I can zoom in on the letters better, but all three preserve things well enough that no actual technical details are lost... Warner > From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Jul 22 08:10:00 2019 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 09:10:00 -0400 Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190722142734.00df4778@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190722120727.00ddddf8@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190722142734.00df4778@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 12:27 AM Guy Dunphy via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > At 07:58 PM 21/07/2019 -0700, you wrote: > >> Even if the digital version _did_ fully capture the information > content, I > >> strongly dispute that the physical item/document has lost it's value. > >> That 'digital is all we need' viewpoint is a trap for the naive, > because: > > > >. . . and does it FULLY capture the information content. One might > >think so, but much later, somebody asks, "in the number on page 576, is > >that a '3' or an '8'?" > >There is always the possibility of a need to go back to prior, or even > >original forms. > Just wanted to put in my comment here. I am glad that there are people who still cultivate original documents. I agree with the point above especially when one is trying to recreate old program listings from print, which are typically bad copies as originals. In particular the appendices of S-100 manuals and SIG newsletters. A set vulnerable to loss are the "other" types of docs that are not easy to just stick into a scanner unless done by hand. Bill vintagecomputer.net From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jul 22 08:18:12 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 09:18:12 -0400 Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <09EA9F8B-43E1-4427-94EA-326382809BF6@comcast.net> > On Jul 21, 2019, at 6:16 AM, Joseph S. Barrera III via cctalk wrote: > > I'd suggest that in 2019 when bits are cheap and high-quality scanners > nearly as cheap, "crappy quality digital image" is a bit of a straw man. > Yes, I've seen plenty of barely-readable or practically unreadable scans, > but they were made years or decades ago. > > What dpi qualifies as not "crappy"? 300dpi? 400? 600? That's not a particularly meaningful question. 300 dpi can be adequate, 400 is more likely to be, 600 is plenty for just about every purpose. But asking about adequate DPI is like asking a race car driver about adequate horsepower. It's just one tiny detail among a much larger set of more relevant issues. A high resolution scan with bad exposure, or insufficient dynamic range, can be nearly unuseable. Post-processing scans to make them easy to read is not at all a simple matter, especially for old faded documents. You can also cause trouble by a poor choice of compression methods, but fortunately people using scanners typically know enough to avoid JPEG and the like. paul From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Jul 22 09:09:04 2019 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 07:09:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Scanning Results In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190721134745.012324e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Jul 2019, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > So for the moment, I have to keep all my scans local (but accessible). > No you don't. Uploading to archive.org is painless and easy. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From guykd at optusnet.com.au Mon Jul 22 09:50:23 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 00:50:23 +1000 Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190722120727.00ddddf8@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190722120727.00ddddf8@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190723005023.0127b580@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 12:48 AM 22/07/2019 -0600, you wrote: >On 7/21/2019 8:07 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > >> BTW. I have three IBM 026 card punch machines as a future restoration project. But can I find >> a service manual? No. None online, only one for the later 028. And even if there was a PDF >> I expect it would be the usual terrible quality. >> Does anyone have a physical copy they would sell? Or as my last resort, loan? >> >> Ditto for a service/schematics manual for the Documation TM200 punch card reader. No copy can be found. > >I keep thinking, Do you have PUNCH CARDS for that project? :) Yes. Two boxes of blank cards, and about half a box of some punched ones. Also thanks to a kind gift, a card gauge and a card saw. (No, I didn't know card saws existed either.) And some boxes of blank paper tape rolls for the tape reader/punches - another project. I'm on the lookout for more boxes of blank cards btw. Guy From guykd at optusnet.com.au Mon Jul 22 09:55:04 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 00:55:04 +1000 Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190723005504.01279908@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 10:41 AM 21/07/2019 -0600, you wrote: On Sun, Jul 21, 2019, 4:16 AM Joseph S. Barrera III via cctalk wrote: >I'd suggest that in 2019 when bits are cheap and high-quality scanners >nearly as cheap, "crappy quality digital image" is a bit of a straw man. >Yes, I've seen plenty of barely-readable or practically unreadable scans, >but they were made years or decades ago. There are still plenty of bad scans being done today, for various reasons. The technology of producing a final digital copy continues to improve and has a way to go yet. *This* is why I strongly oppose destroying rare docs to scan them, now. Better to wait till non-destructive scanning methods become available. >What dpi qualifies as not "crappy"? 300dpi? 400? 600? Points: 1. Both the DPI and bits/pixel affect the visual result. Having shaded pixels on curved edges makes the eye see a smooth curve, where the same resolution in two-tone (B&W) would look jagged. Achieving an optimal balance of resolution and shading levels for various types of content and fineness of detail, vs file size, is a bit of an art. But ultimately it's a simple test: look at the paper original, and your final result on screen (at 1:1 final scale.) Does the quality look the same? Is your copy how the original publisher would have wanted the doc to appear? People only auto-producing PDFs rarely catch on to this, because PDF ONLY encodes as one of: two-tone B&W (fax mode), or JPG (or JPEG2000 rarely) or the excreable JBIG2 (Never use this!) Experiment with PNG encoding, via a tool like Irfanview, which allows flexibly setting PNG bits/pixel, raw, indexed color or gray scale. PNG is a lossless encoding, and so the only resolution loss is by your choice while rescaling in post-processing. 2. The resolution you scan at, and the final presentation resolution, won't be the same. Especially when the pages include elements like screened color or B&W images. To deal with these properly you MUST scan at a resolution several times higher than the screen dot pitch. Otherwise there will be moire patterns (beats) between the scan sampling and the screening dots. Then you post-process to eliminate the screening, and end up with a truly tonal image at the resolution the eye would perceive when viewing the original screened image. This avoids any moire patterning, realizes the original publisher's visual intent, and enables minimizing the final file data size. B&W text should be encoded with at least 16 gray levels available to edge shading. ie 4 bits/pixel. B&W tonal images need at least 256 level gray scale, or the eye sees quantization of shades (aka posterization.) Colour images need either 24 bit/px, ie 8 bits each for RGB, or if there are a limited number of flat colours an indexed color scheme may work. 256 colors or less, ie an 8 bit index per pixel. Typical utilities will generate the color table automatically (which can sometimes ba a pain.) PDF does not allow any of these kind of user choices. 3. The final page images, don't have a 'dots per inch' dimension. They have only total number of pixels in H & V. When doing final page image down-scaling and choice of encoding, you have to make an aesthetic decision on final pixel dimensions. If your original page was A4 (8.5" wide) and you scanned at 600 DPI, that's 5100 pixels wide. But you'll likely find that the final copy can be scaled to around 1000 to 1200 pixels wide, with 4 bits/px (if B&W text), for an on-screen page image indistinguishable from the original. 4. All post processing should be done in 24 bit RGB, at the full scan resolution. Keep staged backups. NEVER use any indexed color scheme when scaling, rotating, etc. The result is unavoidably bad. The final two steps should be: rescale to desided X-Y pixel size, THEN down-code to final color system and file encoding. There's a discussion of this in http://everist.org/temp/On_scanning.htm In general, 'acceptable' resolution VERY MUCH depends on the content. >I just scanned my Rainbow 100 User's Manual at 300, 600 and 1200dpi using the scansnap default settings. You see a jump between 300 and 600, but little difference going on up to 1200 for this material. I posted the 300dpi results and even they are acceptable. Some of the diagrams look heavier than the 600dpi version and at high zoom you see pixelated letters, where the 600 doesn't. The 1200 is hard to see any big difference and takes 4x as long to scan. I think I'll be scanning the remaining rainbow docs at 600dpi. The file is 22MB vs 12MB, so that's worth it. The 1200dpi version was almost 70MB which is starting to get a bit large for a 60 sheet document. The sweet spot seems to be 600dpu, at least for this material. Just wondering if you're aware of the freeware util Irfanview? https://www.irfanview.com/ It's very capable for batch processing large sets of images. Rescaling, changing coding, cropping, etc. Guy From allisonportable at gmail.com Mon Jul 22 10:23:11 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 11:23:11 -0400 Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190723005504.01279908@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20190723005504.01279908@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On 07/22/2019 10:55 AM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > At 10:41 AM 21/07/2019 -0600, you wrote: > On Sun, Jul 21, 2019, 4:16 AM Joseph S. Barrera III via cctalk wrote: >> I'd suggest that in 2019 when bits are cheap and high-quality scanners >> nearly as cheap, "crappy quality digital image" is a bit of a straw man. >> Yes, I've seen plenty of barely-readable or practically unreadable scans, >> but they were made years or decades ago. > > There are still plenty of bad scans being done today, for various reasons. > The technology of producing a final digital copy continues to improve and has a way to go yet. > *This* is why I strongly oppose destroying rare docs to scan them, now. Better to wait > till non-destructive scanning methods become available. > > >> What dpi qualifies as not "crappy"? 300dpi? 400? 600? > > Points: > 1. Both the DPI and bits/pixel affect the visual result. Having shaded pixels on curved edges > makes the eye see a smooth curve, where the same resolution in two-tone (B&W) would look jagged. > Achieving an optimal balance of resolution and shading levels for various types of content and > fineness of detail, vs file size, is a bit of an art. > But ultimately it's a simple test: look at the paper original, and your final result on screen > (at 1:1 final scale.) Does the quality look the same? > Is your copy how the original publisher would have wanted the doc to appear? > People only auto-producing PDFs rarely catch on to this, because PDF ONLY encodes as one of: > two-tone B&W (fax mode), or JPG (or JPEG2000 rarely) or the excreable JBIG2 (Never use this!) > Experiment with PNG encoding, via a tool like Irfanview, which allows flexibly setting PNG > bits/pixel, raw, indexed color or gray scale. PNG is a lossless encoding, and so the only > resolution loss is by your choice while rescaling in post-processing. > > 2. The resolution you scan at, and the final presentation resolution, won't be the same. > Especially when the pages include elements like screened color or B&W images. To deal with > these properly you MUST scan at a resolution several times higher than the screen dot pitch. > Otherwise there will be moire patterns (beats) between the scan sampling and the screening dots. > Then you post-process to eliminate the screening, and end up with a truly tonal image at the > resolution the eye would perceive when viewing the original screened image. > This avoids any moire patterning, realizes the original publisher's visual intent, and enables > minimizing the final file data size. > B&W text should be encoded with at least 16 gray levels available to edge shading. ie 4 bits/pixel. > B&W tonal images need at least 256 level gray scale, or the eye sees quantization of shades (aka > posterization.) > Colour images need either 24 bit/px, ie 8 bits each for RGB, or if there are a limited number > of flat colours an indexed color scheme may work. 256 colors or less, ie an 8 bit index per pixel. > Typical utilities will generate the color table automatically (which can sometimes ba a pain.) > PDF does not allow any of these kind of user choices. > > 3. The final page images, don't have a 'dots per inch' dimension. They have only total number of > pixels in H & V. When doing final page image down-scaling and choice of encoding, you have to > make an aesthetic decision on final pixel dimensions. > If your original page was A4 (8.5" wide) and you scanned at 600 DPI, that's 5100 pixels wide. > But you'll likely find that the final copy can be scaled to around 1000 to 1200 pixels wide, > with 4 bits/px (if B&W text), for an on-screen page image indistinguishable from the original. > > 4. All post processing should be done in 24 bit RGB, at the full scan resolution. Keep staged backups. > NEVER use any indexed color scheme when scaling, rotating, etc. The result is unavoidably bad. > The final two steps should be: rescale to desided X-Y pixel size, THEN down-code to final > color system and file encoding. There's a discussion of this in http://everist.org/temp/On_scanning.htm > > In general, 'acceptable' resolution VERY MUCH depends on the content. > >> I just scanned my Rainbow 100 User's Manual at 300, 600 and 1200dpi using the scansnap default settings. You see a jump between 300 and 600, but little difference going on up to 1200 for this material. I posted the 300dpi results and even they are acceptable. Some of the diagrams look heavier than the 600dpi version and at high zoom you see pixelated letters, where the 600 doesn't. The 1200 is hard to see any big difference and takes 4x as long to scan. I think I'll be scanning the remaining rainbow docs at 600dpi. The file is 22MB vs 12MB, so that's worth it. The 1200dpi version was almost 70MB which is starting to get a bit large for a 60 sheet document. The sweet spot seems to be 600dpu, at least for this material. > > Just wondering if you're aware of the freeware util Irfanview? https://www.irfanview.com/ > It's very capable for batch processing large sets of images. Rescaling, changing coding, cropping, etc. > > Guy The above is all nice and such. My cut. If the Book is a "one of" as in rare and likely few if any copies exist Then preservation comes first with copies by non destructive means as possible. Other books, manuals, Docs, with print volumes in the likely greater ranges of 10s of thousands or higher... I go the other way getting on line information has priority over preservation as there are plenty of copies to preserve. Crappy scans are never good, but in some cases for radio repair work they were the Rosetta stone. Better scans are not hard any more. But I go back to a 525line black and white camera on a stand taking single frames. My old Cannon CanaoScan and "Xsane" does a slow but very good job. In the end information is valuable and only if it is available as then we can share it. There are cases where we have to suffer a less than best electronic copy as preservation comes first but a copy in some usable if not the best form is still better than "I hear there is a book about it". Based on that I've taken books and manuals that I know more exist and shredded them to make copies or scan. ON preservation: Me I'd love to know what the engineering library (ML4-1) of DEC a massive quantity of aperture cards went to. Generally If I needed or wanted it it was available (during my time at DEC) if I had a valid part or model number. To me that was a preserve at all costs including the systems used to retrieve and print. Allison From mattislind at gmail.com Mon Jul 22 12:16:53 2019 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 19:16:53 +0200 Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190723005504.01279908@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: > >> BTW. I have three IBM 026 card punch machines as a future restoration > project. But can I find > >> a service manual? No. None online, only one for the later 028. And even > if there was a PDF Have you seen these: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/punchedCard/Keypunch/A24- 0520-2_24-26_Keypunches.pdf http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/punchedCard/Keypunch/225- 6535-5_24-Base_Machines_FEMM_Dec65.pdf http://ibm-1401.info/IBM-026-Wiring-228005P.html > >> I expect it would be the usual terrible quality. > >> Does anyone have a physical copy they would sell? Or as my last resort, > loan? > >> > >> Ditto for a service/schematics manual for the Documation TM200 punch > card reader. No copy can be found. Do you expect the TM200 to be substantially different from the M200? My guess is that they are quite similar. Gone down the route of reverese engineering the differences? > > Guy > /Mattis From imp at bsdimp.com Mon Jul 22 12:43:17 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 11:43:17 -0600 Subject: Scanning Results In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190721134745.012324e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 8:09 AM geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 22 Jul 2019, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > > > So for the moment, I have to keep all my scans local (but accessible). > > > No you don't. Uploading to archive.org is painless and easy. > Maybe I'll try both :) Warner From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Jul 22 13:43:11 2019 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 13:43:11 -0500 Subject: Scanning Results In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190721134745.012324e0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 22, 2019, 12:43 Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 8:09 AM geneb via cctalk > wrote: > > > On Mon, 22 Jul 2019, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > > > > > So for the moment, I have to keep all my scans local (but accessible). > > > > > No you don't. Uploading to archive.org is painless and easy. > > > > Maybe I'll try both :) > I am always open to hosting well-scanned docs at my site as well: http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs > From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jul 22 13:52:42 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 14:52:42 -0400 Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) In-Reply-To: <5D34E540.4060301@pico-systems.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <5D34E540.4060301@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <0EA719CB-772C-458A-8CB8-E244F58E1C0F@comcast.net> > On Jul 21, 2019, at 6:20 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > On 07/21/2019 04:48 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >> It is not the DPI that is problem on some scans, but they used >> a LOSSY format to store the data. JPEG IS NO! > Yes, ABSOLUTELY! JPEG is designed for things that have smooth tones, like people and outdoor photographs. It is horrible with anything that has sharp contrasts like letter outlines and line drawings. Furthermore, it is utterly unfit as a storage format for files being edited (since every save/reopen loses more detail). It's just barely tolerable as a source file format in digital cameras, and it's of course appropriate as a final format for continuous tone photo-like images. It's always amazing to see ignorant "graphic artists" uses JPEG for corporate logos. Those go into the "you get what you pay for" bucket. paul From guykd at optusnet.com.au Mon Jul 22 22:28:02 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 13:28:02 +1000 Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190723005504.01279908@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190723132802.0129e000@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 07:16 PM 22/07/2019 +0200, Mattis Lind wrote: >> BTW. I have three IBM 026 card punch machines as a future restoration project. But can I find >> a service manual? No. None online, only one for the later 028. And even if there was a PDF >Have you seen these: >http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/punchedCard/Keypunch/A24-0520-2_24-26_Keypunches.pdf >http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/punchedCard/Keypunch/225-6535-5_24-Base_Machines_FEMM_Dec65.pdf >http://ibm-1401.info/IBM-026-Wiring-228005P.html Last time I looked, in Sept 2018 I had previously found: http://www.righto.com/2017/12/repairing-1960s-era-ibm-keypunch.html https://www.flickr.com/photos/pfsullivan_1056/16296856470 http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/punchedCard/Keypunch/029/225-3357-3_29_FE_Maint_Man_Nov70.pdf Bitsavers has a user manual: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/punchedCard/Keypunch/A24-0520-2_24-26_Keypunches.pdf And a field manual: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/punchedCard/Keypunch/225-6535-5_24-Base_Machines_FEMM_Dec65.pdf But no schematics still. Your first URL is 404'd, though I already had that doc. Seems there's been a tree structure re-org. Now there's these: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/punchedCard/Keypunch/024-026/ 123-7091-3_24_25_Parts_Catalog_Apr1963.pdf 225-6535-5_24-Base_Machines_FEMM_Dec65.pdf 22-8319-0_24_26_Customer_Engineering_Preliminary_Manual_of_Instruction_1950.pdf 229-3125_24-26_Operators_Guide.pdf A24-0520-3_24_26_Card_Punch_Reference_Manual_Oct1965.pdf Downloaded. Looks like a good complete set, for mechanicals. Still no overall schematic. Maybe it didn't exist? Gosh it's a scary-complicated machine. I'm not looking forward to finding the gotchas, like obscure parts buried deep in the guts that have perished rubber bits, complex precision surface-hardened things that are just plain worn out and unobtainium, etc. >> I expect it would be the usual terrible quality. Pleasant surprise! The image quality of all those PDFs is pretty good. But all still a mix of 2-tone and JPG encoding, with all their various artifacts. Fortunately at high enough res to preserve all information. High enough even to (mostly) preserve the ink screening dots in images. I'd still like to find original paper copies, both as a historical set with the machines, and to scan-encode-wrap 'my way' for better looking digital versions. >> Ditto for a service/schematics manual for the Documation TM200 punch card reader. No copy can be found. >Do you expect the TM200 to be substantially different from the M200? My guess is that they are quite similar. > Gone down the route of reverese engineering the differences? The TM200 has extra circuitry (more cards, wiring) than the M200, since it also reads optical mark-sense cards. Which means if ultimately I'm forced to reverse engineer the diferences, it's going to be a lot of work. There's no rush and plenty of other projects. I'd rather just wait more to see if a correct manual turns up. Not to mention that I'd like to find that manual in order to scan it. Guy From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Jul 23 01:39:46 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 07:39:46 +0100 Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190723132802.0129e000@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20190723005504.01279908@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190723132802.0129e000@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <158801d54121$6b90de00$42b29a00$@gmail.com> It might be worth trying to talk to the IBM Museum at Hursley. https://slx-online.biz/hursley/contact_us.asp Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Guy Dunphy via > cctalk > Sent: 23 July 2019 04:28 > To: Mattis Lind ; General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral > crime?) > > At 07:16 PM 22/07/2019 +0200, Mattis Lind wrote: > >> BTW. I have three IBM 026 card punch machines as a future restoration > >> project. But can I find a service manual? No. None online, only one > >> for the later 028. And even if there was a PDF > > >Have you seen these: > >http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/punchedCard/Keypunch/A24-0520- > 2_24-26_ > >Keypunches.pdf > >http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/punchedCard/Keypunch/225-6535- > 5_24-Bas > >e_Machines_FEMM_Dec65.pdf > >http://ibm-1401.info/IBM-026-Wiring-228005P.html > > Last time I looked, in Sept 2018 I had previously found: > http://www.righto.com/2017/12/repairing-1960s-era-ibm-keypunch.html > https://www.flickr.com/photos/pfsullivan_1056/16296856470 > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/punchedCard/Keypunch/029/225-3357- > 3_29_FE_Maint_Man_Nov70.pdf > Bitsavers has a user manual: > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/punchedCard/Keypunch/A24-0520- > 2_24-26_Keypunches.pdf > And a field manual: > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/punchedCard/Keypunch/225-6535- > 5_24-Base_Machines_FEMM_Dec65.pdf > > But no schematics still. > > Your first URL is 404'd, though I already had that doc. Seems there's been a > tree structure re-org. > Now there's these: > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/punchedCard/Keypunch/024-026/ > 123-7091-3_24_25_Parts_Catalog_Apr1963.pdf > 225-6535-5_24-Base_Machines_FEMM_Dec65.pdf > 22-8319- > 0_24_26_Customer_Engineering_Preliminary_Manual_of_Instruction_1950. > pdf > 229-3125_24-26_Operators_Guide.pdf > A24-0520-3_24_26_Card_Punch_Reference_Manual_Oct1965.pdf > > Downloaded. > Looks like a good complete set, for mechanicals. Still no overall schematic. > Maybe it didn't exist? > > Gosh it's a scary-complicated machine. I'm not looking forward to finding the > gotchas, like obscure parts buried deep in the guts that have perished rubber > bits, complex precision surface-hardened things that are just plain worn out > and unobtainium, etc. > > >> I expect it would be the usual terrible quality. > > Pleasant surprise! The image quality of all those PDFs is pretty good. But all > still a mix of 2-tone and JPG encoding, with all their various artifacts. > Fortunately at high enough res to preserve all information. High enough even > to (mostly) preserve the ink screening dots in images. > > I'd still like to find original paper copies, both as a historical set with the > machines, and to scan-encode-wrap 'my way' for better looking digital > versions. > > > >> Ditto for a service/schematics manual for the Documation TM200 punch > card reader. No copy can be found. > > >Do you expect the TM200 to be substantially different from the M200? My > guess is that they are quite similar. > > Gone down the route of reverese engineering the differences? > > The TM200 has extra circuitry (more cards, wiring) than the M200, since it also > reads optical mark-sense cards. > Which means if ultimately I'm forced to reverse engineer the diferences, it's > going to be a lot of work. > There's no rush and plenty of other projects. I'd rather just wait more to see > if a correct manual turns up. > Not to mention that I'd like to find that manual in order to scan it. > > Guy From flash688 at flying-disk.com Tue Jul 23 11:42:26 2019 From: flash688 at flying-disk.com (Alan Frisbie) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:42:26 -0700 Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5D3738F2.3040308@flying-disk.com> Guy Dunphy wrote: > Ditto for a service/schematics manual for the Documation > TM200 punch card reader. No copy can be found. I don't know about the TM200, but I have the technical manual for the Documation M-200 card reader. If that will help you, I would be happy to scan it for you. It is already on my list of manuals to scan for Bitsavers. This is the August 1974 update containing the recommended spares list for DEC. Amazingly, I knew exactly which moving box it was in, and it took less than five minutes to find that box! Alan "Pack Rat" Frisbie From sales at elecplus.com Tue Jul 23 13:49:53 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 13:49:53 -0500 Subject: PDP stuff in MA--attn collectors Message-ID: <017601d54187$6af8fa70$40eaef50$@com> Charlie at Qei Inc in MA is an old-time DEC dealer from back in the day. I asked him if he has any PDP stuff left, and he said yes. He much prefers emails. He works from pictures and lists of PN or model numbers. Send your requests to qeiinc at verizon.net. Large items will need to be picked up. Items under 25 pounds that are not too fragile can usually be sent UPS. Be patient; he has a huge warehouse and finding things can be a challenge. It may take more than a week to get an answer, but he will look into all requests. Cindy Croxton --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Jul 23 13:48:36 2019 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 12:48:36 -0600 Subject: wanted: scan of Rockwell R6500 Programming Manual, Rev 2, January 1983 Message-ID: I'm looking for a scan (or hard copy) of the later revision of the Rockwell R6500 Programmming Manual which includes coverage of the additional R65C02 instructions. I believe this is Rev 2 dated January 1983. There are several different scans of the original revision that did not cover the R65C02, so I don't need those. I'm not sure whether they also issued a new revision of the Hardware Manual, but if so, I'd like to get a copy of that as well. As with the Programming Manual, I already have scans of the original revision. Best regards, Eric From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Tue Jul 23 14:31:39 2019 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 15:31:39 -0400 Subject: Sgi crimson for sale Message-ID: Hello, Havent posted here for a while. I usually post about pdp11 and vax stuff. I am big into sgi equipment, I have many deskside coputers and a full onyx 1000 rack. I have just about every machine in the sgi linup and I need to clear out most of my big sgi stuff. I was big into the nekochan forums, but sadly since that shut down, supoprt has been limited, and i want to get this stuff to someone that can use it. I have a sgi crimson for sale. Possible intermittent power supply issue. Problem with the IO3 board prevents it from booting I have an onyx2 for sale in full working order. Its my main machine, im migrating work to a Octane2. I also have a loaded origin / onyx2 loaded with hardware, but i havent been able to get it to post or get to the serial console. Good machine for parts or to try and fix. Many octane 2 machines, a couple are fully loaded with 8gb of memory, dual processors, pci expansion box, etc. Enough indys to make a jenga tower. Indigo with keyboard indigo 2 with matching keyboard. Might be persuaded to sell the onyx 1000 rack, im not going to part it out, and needs a forklift to be moved. 2 Sgi tezro's in working order. I picked them both up a year or two ago, i used them in a headless serial console fassion, i was not able to get my monitor to sysc with either of them. They both work aside from Battery/RTC warnings. I am open to offers, Im not looking to just give them away. Im hoping to recoup some of my money to move and pay for college. Open to answer any questions about them --Devin D. From sales at elecplus.com Tue Jul 23 14:49:42 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 14:49:42 -0500 Subject: Old test equip for sale Message-ID: <01df01d5418f$c5ecd8e0$51c68aa0$@com> https://www.elecshopper.com/tools/b-k-1077b-television-analyst.html https://www.elecshopper.com/tools/heathkit-it-18-transistor-checker.html https://www.elecshopper.com/tools/home-brew-dc-milliamp-box.html https://www.elecshopper.com/tools/micronta-digital-multimeter.html Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From web at loomcom.com Tue Jul 23 16:49:19 2019 From: web at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 14:49:19 -0700 Subject: Sgi crimson for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0927b562-3a17-41cb-ac33-5a5ce35d0d54@www.fastmail.com> On Tue, Jul 23, 2019, at 12:32 PM, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > I am big into sgi equipment, I have many deskside coputers and a full onyx > 1000 rack. I have just about every machine in the sgi linup and I need to > clear out most of my big sgi stuff. I was big into the nekochan forums, but > sadly since that shut down, supoprt has been limited, and i want to get > this stuff to someone that can use it. Hi Devin! I'm also a longtime SGI fan. I worked there from 1996 to 1998, it was my favorite job. I really miss it. Can you tell me where you're located? That would certainly help determine how much effort it would be to pick things up / transport / ship things. Thanks much, -Seth -- Seth Morabito Poulsbo, WA web at loomcom.com From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Tue Jul 23 18:04:02 2019 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 19:04:02 -0400 Subject: Sgi crimson for sale In-Reply-To: <0927b562-3a17-41cb-ac33-5a5ce35d0d54@www.fastmail.com> References: <0927b562-3a17-41cb-ac33-5a5ce35d0d54@www.fastmail.com> Message-ID: Located in melbourne florida. Willing to crate and ship if needed. Most of the big stuff was shipped here from california and saint augustine fl. Only what i listed in the previous email is for sale. Sadly no personal iris, challenge, etc systems. Oh , there is a 4 node sgi altix system with numa link cables for sale as well. Itanium based system. On Tue, Jul 23, 2019, 5:49 PM Seth Morabito wrote: > On Tue, Jul 23, 2019, at 12:32 PM, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > > I am big into sgi equipment, I have many deskside coputers and a full > onyx > > 1000 rack. I have just about every machine in the sgi linup and I need to > > clear out most of my big sgi stuff. I was big into the nekochan forums, > but > > sadly since that shut down, supoprt has been limited, and i want to get > > this stuff to someone that can use it. > > Hi Devin! > > I'm also a longtime SGI fan. I worked there from 1996 to 1998, it was my > favorite job. I really miss it. > > Can you tell me where you're located? That would certainly help determine > how much effort it would be to pick things up / transport / ship things. > > Thanks much, > > -Seth > -- > Seth Morabito > Poulsbo, WA > web at loomcom.com > From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jul 23 19:30:12 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 20:30:12 -0400 Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) In-Reply-To: <5D348FF6.7000405@pico-systems.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <5D348FF6.7000405@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <47DF15F4-06F5-45C3-AF10-D9DE69B123E9@comcast.net> > On Jul 21, 2019, at 12:16 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > On 07/21/2019 05:16 AM, Joseph S. Barrera III via cctalk wrote: >> What dpi qualifies as not "crappy"? 300dpi? 400? 600? >> >> > Most of the text of these documents don't need super high resolution. But, some contain hand-drawn schematics where an 11 x 17 original has been shrunk to 8.5 x 11" and hand-written signal labels and part types are VERY small. These need to be scanned at high resolution, with several retries while adjusting the image threshold to make things readable. Another example that might call for higher than normal resolution is oddball text, where subtle distinctions need to be visible. An example of this can be found in the scans in the Knuth archive of the THE operating system sources. Those are line printer listings printed with a typical medium-worn ribbon -- that's bad enough. But the printer is upper case only printing mixed-case source material. That was handled in that OS by overprinting upper case letters with periods. In a clean original printout that's easy enough to see, but the scans seem to be about 300 dpi and with that the overprints are often not easy to see. Since the source text is case sensitive this can be a problem... paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jul 23 19:45:10 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 20:45:10 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro380 problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Jul 19, 2019, at 10:52 PM, Eric Dittman via cctalk wrote: > > I pulled my Pro380 out of storage after getting a replacement > VR201 monitor. I connected it all together and on powerup I > get the following display: > > http://www.dittman.net/pro380/screen.jpg > > The tech manual says this is an error from slot 1 (the hard > drive controller) and the error is "Non-existent memory trap > occurred for longer than 20 seconds". > > I reseated all the cards. I noticed three ICs are missing on > the hard drive controller but I don't know if they are empty > or someone removed the ICs (I can't remember where I got this > system). I can't find a picture of the controller to compare. > > The missing ICs can be seen here: > > http://www.dittman.net/pro380/missingics.jpg That's normal. I have a working 380 (well, last time I powered it up) and it has the same three empty sockets as yours. The description of the error code isn't very clear. It might mean that the card is detected (slot present register says there is a card) but the attempts to read the card ID code and associated selftest ROM failed. That would explain why the second line is 177776 rather than the card ID (000401). You might need to clean the connector contacts (connector and backplane) and also check for damaged contacts. paul From steven at malikoff.com Tue Jul 23 20:44:57 2019 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 11:44:57 +1000 Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) In-Reply-To: <47DF15F4-06F5-45C3-AF10-D9DE69B123E9@comcast.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <5D348FF6.7000405@pico-systems.com> <47DF15F4-06F5-45C3-AF10-D9DE69B123E9@comcast.net> Message-ID: <57d4c02a6b4425b78f83a81ba20d14ec.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Paul etc said >> On Jul 21, 2019, at 12:16 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 07/21/2019 05:16 AM, Joseph S. Barrera III via cctalk wrote: >>> What dpi qualifies as not "crappy"? 300dpi? 400? 600? >>> >>> >> Most of the text of these documents don't need super high resolution. But, some contain hand-drawn schematics where an 11 x 17 original has been shrunk to 8.5 x 11" and hand-written signal labels and part types are VERY small. These need to be scanned at high resolution, with several retries while adjusting the image threshold to make things readable.> > Another example that might call for higher than normal resolution is oddball text, where subtle distinctions need to be visible. An example of this can be found in the scans in the Knuth archive of the THE operating system sources. Those are line printer listings printed with a typical medium-worn ribbon -- that's bad enough. But the printer is upper case only printing mixed-case source material. That was handled in that OS by overprinting upper case letters with periods. In a clean original printout that's easy enough to see, but the scans seem to be about 300 dpi and with that the overprints are often not easy to see. Since the source text is case sensitive this can be a problem... I've just put up some oddball text, in this case a few pages of handwritten notes on the main features of FPL. This was a concurrent task process-control language for the FOX 2, Foxboro's rebadged PDP-11/15 they sold in the early-mid 70's. I think the notes were written about 1975 or so by someone at the BHP steelworks where the computer was controlling the fire prevention system in the oxygen plant. As if the foolscap paper size wasn't a nuisance, the notes are in HB pencil and are _very_ light, in fact I could only read them properly after I scanned it as TIFFs. The information density on the pages is very low so 150 dpi worked well enough. I could have spent ages painting out the speckle but it's not worth it, I just wanted it up as I've not found anything else about FPL anywhere: https://archive.org/details/foxboroprogramminglanguagenotes Also the brochure on FPL. I did this at 300dpi to TIFF and then output as 8-bit png due to the basic colours they used (pretty much black, brown and orange tones). I am happy with the result here too: https://archive.org/details/fox210minisystem Steve. From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Tue Jul 23 21:07:19 2019 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 19:07:19 -0700 Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <88E5CE87-CC4C-4A23-8641-F1C2311FD24B@eschatologist.net> On Jul 20, 2019, at 8:00 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: >> While I agree that making a non-optimal digital copy in such cases, is, >> well, non-optimal (because for _many uses_, the basic information is still >> available, wheras for many important documents, not even that remains), >> there's no way it's "right up there with genocide" - and if you really >> think so, you definitely need to examine your sense of scale, because it's >> seriously defective. >> >> [name removed] > > I agree that when historical documents are lost without even any kind of > digital copy made, that's the worst. > > However I was pretty careful to preceded that quoted paragraph with conditionals. Nonetheless, comparing some small amount of lost information to genocide, which is a real thing that has happened and is still happening in the world today, and which has affected people on the list and those they are close to, is more than a bit offensive. Please be more considerate of this and, as was suggested by the person whose correspondence you posted, examine your sense of scale. -- Chris From guykd at optusnet.com.au Wed Jul 24 00:57:59 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 15:57:59 +1000 Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190724155759.00dab9c0@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 07:07 PM 23/07/2019 -0700, you wrote: >Nonetheless, comparing some small amount of lost information It's not a 'small amount of lost information', because destroying rare technical works in order to scan them, or afterwards because "now they are scanned there's no need to keep the paper copy" is a widespread practice. Very many works in original form are being lost because of this. >to genocide, which is a real thing that has happened and is still happening in the world today, > and which has affected people on the list and those they are close to, is more than a bit offensive. Let me tell you about my wife. She's Cambodian, and very barely lived through the Pol Pot genocide in Cambodia. Many of her family and relatives didn't make it. The Khmer Rouge were mostly insane, as a result of the secret US bombing campaign, in which they napalmed every Cambodian country village they could spot. So virtually all country folk in Cambodia had lost people close to them to poisonous fire from the sky. (Napalm contains phosphorus, can't be extinguished, and even if you only get a few spots on you and survive the burning, you die slowly of phosphorus poisoning.) The countryside people were virtually all uneducated and knew nothing of the outside world, and had no idea why this was happening. In this context the Khmer Rouge arose, with the central creed being that Cambodia had to be purged, since all 'foreign influences' equated to the burning from the sky. By 'purged' they meant _everything_ and _everyone_ with any trace of foreign influence. That included all the people in the major cities, since they spoke with foreign (French, Chinese) accents among other things. It also meant all machines and books. Did you know sewing machines are evil? No? Well they were to the Khmer Rouge, so they destroyed them all. As a result my future wife (from Phnom Phen) spent several years on sub-starvation diet, only kept alive in a camp because she could hand-sew uniforms for the Khmer Rouge. As in needle and thread only. I guess needles and scissors were not considered 'machines'. Ditto rifles. They weren't big on logical consistency. The camps were intended as temporary people storage, while they sorted out who to kill. Almost everyone, though there was a lot of mission drift. They didn't have enough bullets, so the daily killings were done via simpler, zero cost means. A common method was for three people to kill one. Two held the victim's arms back, pulling them against a tree trunk. The third sawed through the victim's throat with the edge of a palm frond. This happened very often, daily. We met and married here in Australia, had a family etc. Wonderful person. But her past haunted her and she slowly developed PTSD. Is far from who she once was. This is why I dislike the practice of destroying things (information and still useful tech-tools) for reasons that seem sensible to some, but are fundamentally superficial consequences of social fads and groupthink. It's a mindset - destroying old things, and destroying people, go hand in hand. If you can justify one, the other maybe too. >Please be more considerate of this and, as was suggested by the person whose correspondence you posted, >examine your sense of scale. My sense of scale is OK I think. There was a major global human genetic bottleneck around 12,000 years ago, probably caused by the metorite impact that left the Hiawatha crater in Greenland. That one nearly wiped us out. About 30,000 years ago 'something' caused a mega-tsunami that washed right across the north end of the southern island of New Zealand, creating the 'buried kauri forests' effect. There was a relatively high-tech civilization in the Mediteranean area sometime around 300BC, that made the Antikythera Mechanism - that one required mathematics, accurate astronomy, metalurgy and precision machine tools, plus all the necessary cultural support. Completely lost. The Umm al Binni lake (in Al Amarah marshes of southern Iraq, approximately 45 km northwest of the Tigris-Euphrates confluence) is believed to be a Holocene (8,000 BC to present) impact crater. There are traces in ancient texts of a prior civilization in that area that was apparently completely wiped out. Just a few of a long list of dramatic natural events in quite recent times, very little known by the public. Currently humans have achieved a pretty nice level of technological capability. But few understand how fragile that is, and what kinds of events could crash it back to primitive levels. Very very few are aware of factors like tech being not easily restartable, since we've used up all the easily mined resources, now running on ores and energy sources that require existing high tech. Almost no one is aware of the long-life isotope stocks issue, that could make a technological collapse permanent for many millions of years, by raising background environmental radiation worldwide to levels untenable for higher life forms, if our radioactives containment facilities were degraded during even a hundred years of no-tech. And ALL our existing digital storage media are very ephemeral. Factors like these, make detailed, robust and widely distributed _paper_ documentation of technological artifacts *much* more important than most realise. They are 'safety margin.' Always maintain a good safety margin, in anything life-critical. Guy From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Jul 24 03:45:48 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 09:45:48 +0100 Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) In-Reply-To: <47DF15F4-06F5-45C3-AF10-D9DE69B123E9@comcast.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <5D348FF6.7000405@pico-systems.com> <47DF15F4-06F5-45C3-AF10-D9DE69B123E9@comcast.net> Message-ID: <023e01d541fc$30e44d10$92ace730$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Paul Koning via > cctalk > Sent: 24 July 2019 01:30 > To: Jon Elson ; General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral > crime?) > > > > > On Jul 21, 2019, at 12:16 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk > wrote: > > > > On 07/21/2019 05:16 AM, Joseph S. Barrera III via cctalk wrote: > >> What dpi qualifies as not "crappy"? 300dpi? 400? 600? > >> > >> > > Most of the text of these documents don't need super high resolution. > But, some contain hand-drawn schematics where an 11 x 17 original has been > shrunk to 8.5 x 11" and hand-written signal labels and part types are VERY > small. These need to be scanned at high resolution, with several retries > while adjusting the image threshold to make things readable. > > Another example that might call for higher than normal resolution is oddball > text, where subtle distinctions need to be visible. An example of this can be > found in the scans in the Knuth archive of the THE operating system sources. > Those are line printer listings printed with a typical medium-worn ribbon -- > that's bad enough. But the printer is upper case only printing mixed-case > source material. That was handled in that OS by overprinting upper case > letters with periods. In a clean original printout that's easy enough to see, > but the scans seem to be about 300 dpi and with that the overprints are > often not easy to see. Since the source text is case sensitive this can be a > problem... > > paul > I think you folks are forgetting that often the choice is scan and have a record, or just put it in for pulping. Storing paper is not easy and not cheap. I deeply regret binning my Wireless World magazines from the 1970's or 1980's but there is no way I could keep them When I offer documents on here or other platforms frequently no one is prepared to take them (I am in the UK). The same goes for some physical objects such as printers. If you want it to be a crime then start a crowd sourcing fund to save it.... Dave G4UGM From technoid6502 at gmail.com Wed Jul 24 12:31:47 2019 From: technoid6502 at gmail.com (Jeffrey S. Worley) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 13:31:47 -0400 Subject: Resurrecting integrated circuits by cooking them. Message-ID: <1ac85d301d13cbfe0a24cfd20f13a47d479b4f1a.camel@gmail.com> Yesterday evening, in the process of refurbishing five very badly treated Atari 800 computers I had a hunch and subjected a failed Pokey chip (Atari Part CO12294 Wikki link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POKEY ) to high heat by way of the barrel of my soldering iron until saliva evaporated from it in about 1 second. The chip, which did not work before in any of the machines now works perfectly. Pokey (see wikki link) is common to all Atari 8-bit computers and common in many Atari coinop video game systems. These chips are becoming scarce, so much so there is a sort of replacement being manufactured https://hotrodarcade.com/products/pokeyone-atari-pokey-chip-replacement-for-atari-arcade-games . The replacement Pokey only emulates the audio portion of the original chip, leaving the PotKEY part unimplemented. Pokey gets its name from Potentiometer Keyboard. It also handles the Atari SIO peripheral signals, so without those an Atari computer cannot use standard peripherals like serial disk drives, and other common interfaces. Thus, for Atari computers a true Pokey is a must. I stumbled upon a fix for this one and wonder if I reinvented the wheel or if this information may be of use to the group in treating other sorts of chips. Reflowing is a treatment for a lot of hardware these days and generally regarded as a hack which won't last. As modern hardware, CPU's and video chips in particular run very hot, I can see how this might be, but Pokey and most of the stuff we work with don't have this environmental restriction. Most of our gear runs at 40 degrees centigrade or lower. So I'm guessing the problem with my disused chip was oxidation within the package and that cooking the chip a bit cleaned things up? Any advise or observations would be appreciated. I tried this on another chip the same evening, an Antic. The Antic DID work for a second or two, whereas it had before given no signs of life, but then returned to its failed state. Best, Jeff (Technoid Mutant) From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Jul 24 13:30:43 2019 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 19:30:43 +0100 Subject: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?) In-Reply-To: <023e01d541fc$30e44d10$92ace730$@gmail.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20190721130003.0122d2d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <5D348FF6.7000405@pico-systems.com> <47DF15F4-06F5-45C3-AF10-D9DE69B123E9@comcast.net> <023e01d541fc$30e44d10$92ace730$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2c2f2ed7-9054-65b9-708c-40070ce2fb02@ntlworld.com> On 24/07/2019 09:45, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > I think you folks are forgetting that often the choice is scan and have a > record, or just put it in for pulping. > Storing paper is not easy and not cheap. I deeply regret binning my Wireless > World magazines from the 1970's or 1980's but there is no way I could keep > them > When I offer documents on here or other platforms frequently no one is > prepared to take them (I am in the UK). > The same goes for some physical objects such as printers. Indeed. I would bet that, even if you only counted those bits of paperwork that lasted beyond the 10 year mark (i.e. discount those that are destroyed early on by the end user), the vast majority end up in recycling because the owner sees no value in them anymore and they're just taking up space. Most people only scan if they cannot find what they want after a web search (since that's much easier than scanning a document) or if the scan they find is inadequate in some way. It's not likely that much more than a handful of any given document have been destroyed just to be scanned. Scanning them preserves them (albeit imperfectly) potentially for a long time to come. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From bhilpert at shaw.ca Wed Jul 24 14:20:22 2019 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 12:20:22 -0700 Subject: Resurrecting integrated circuits by cooking them. In-Reply-To: <1ac85d301d13cbfe0a24cfd20f13a47d479b4f1a.camel@gmail.com> References: <1ac85d301d13cbfe0a24cfd20f13a47d479b4f1a.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0EF31547-7E58-467D-9EAA-35693839C7DE@shaw.ca> On 2019-Jul-24, at 10:31 AM, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote: > Yesterday evening, in the process of refurbishing five very badly > treated Atari 800 computers I had a hunch and subjected a failed Pokey > chip (Atari Part CO12294 Wikki link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POKEY > ) to high heat by way of the barrel of my soldering iron until > saliva evaporated from it in about 1 second. > > The chip, which did not work before in any of the machines now works > perfectly. > ... > I stumbled upon a fix for this one and wonder if I reinvented the wheel > or if this information may be of use to the group in treating other > sorts of chips. > > Reflowing is a treatment for a lot of hardware these days and generally > regarded as a hack which won't last. As modern hardware, CPU's and > video chips in particular run very hot, I can see how this might be, > but Pokey and most of the stuff we work with don't have this > environmental restriction. Most of our gear runs at 40 degrees > centigrade or lower. So I'm guessing the problem with my disused chip > was oxidation within the package and that cooking the chip a bit > cleaned things up? Any advise or observations would be appreciated. > > I tried this on another chip the same evening, an Antic. The Antic DID > work for a second or two, whereas it had before given no signs of life, > but then returned to its failed state. .. cross your fingers that it stays working. I performed a fix like this some years ago with a ca.1970 chip from an SSI logic family from Sony. However, it reverted to its failed state some weeks or months after the heat application, long after (obviously) the chip had returned to ambient temperature. So it wasn't merely that the chip was temperature sensitive, the heat application indeed must have had made some internal alteration, but it wasn't permanent. From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Jul 24 14:30:37 2019 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 15:30:37 -0400 Subject: Resurrecting integrated circuits by cooking them. In-Reply-To: <0EF31547-7E58-467D-9EAA-35693839C7DE@shaw.ca> References: <1ac85d301d13cbfe0a24cfd20f13a47d479b4f1a.camel@gmail.com> <0EF31547-7E58-467D-9EAA-35693839C7DE@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <275601d54256$45c35eb0$d14a1c10$@verizon.net> Brent Hilpert wrote: On 2019-Jul-24, at 10:31 AM, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote: >> Yesterday evening, in the process of refurbishing five very badly >> treated Atari 800 computers I had a hunch and subjected a failed Pokey >> chip (Atari Part CO12294 Wikki link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POKEY >> ) to high heat by way of the barrel of my soldering iron until >> saliva evaporated from it in about 1 second. >> >> The chip, which did not work before in any of the machines now works >> perfectly. > > cross your fingers that it stays working. I performed a fix like this some > years ago with a ca.1970 chip from an SSI logic family from Sony. However, > it reverted to its failed state some weeks or months after the heat > application, long after (obviously) the chip had returned to ambient > temperature. So it wasn't merely that the chip was temperature sensitive, > the heat application indeed must have had made some internal alteration, > but it wasn't permanent. Probably temporarily reattached a bond wire which "re-broke" after a few thermal cycles. Bill S. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From peter at rittwage.com Wed Jul 24 20:24:26 2019 From: peter at rittwage.com (Pete Rittwage) Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 21:24:26 -0400 Subject: Resurrecting integrated circuits by cooking them. In-Reply-To: <1ac85d301d13cbfe0a24cfd20f13a47d479b4f1a.camel@gmail.com> References: <1ac85d301d13cbfe0a24cfd20f13a47d479b4f1a.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0e9b9ebd4ead579c831b121f14d2feda@rittwage.com> On 2019-07-24 13:31, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote: > Yesterday evening, in the process of refurbishing five very badly > treated Atari 800 computers I had a hunch and subjected a failed Pokey > chip (Atari Part CO12294 Wikki link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POKEY > ) to high heat by way of the barrel of my soldering iron until > saliva evaporated from it in about 1 second. > > The chip, which did not work before in any of the machines now works > perfectly. > > Pokey (see wikki link) is common to all Atari 8-bit computers and > common in many Atari coinop video game systems. These chips are > becoming scarce, so much so there is a sort of replacement being > manufactured > https://hotrodarcade.com/products/pokeyone-atari-pokey-chip-replacement-for-atari-arcade-games > . > > The replacement Pokey only emulates the audio portion of the original > chip, leaving the PotKEY part unimplemented. Pokey gets its name from > Potentiometer Keyboard. It also handles the Atari SIO peripheral > signals, so without those an Atari computer cannot use standard > peripherals like serial disk drives, and other common interfaces. > Thus, for Atari computers a true Pokey is a must. > > I stumbled upon a fix for this one and wonder if I reinvented the wheel > or if this information may be of use to the group in treating other > sorts of chips. > > Reflowing is a treatment for a lot of hardware these days and generally > regarded as a hack which won't last. As modern hardware, CPU's and > video chips in particular run very hot, I can see how this might be, > but Pokey and most of the stuff we work with don't have this > environmental restriction. Most of our gear runs at 40 degrees > centigrade or lower. So I'm guessing the problem with my disused chip > was oxidation within the package and that cooking the chip a bit > cleaned things up? Any advise or observations would be appreciated. > > I tried this on another chip the same evening, an Antic. The Antic DID > work for a second or two, whereas it had before given no signs of life, > but then returned to its failed state. > > Best, > > Jeff > (Technoid Mutant) I tried this a year or two back with about 30 x SID, VIC, and PLA chips out of C64's. I heated them in the oven at about 250 for 15 minutes. None of them showed any more signs of life than before I tried it, unfortunately. -- -Pete Rittwage From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jul 25 00:52:31 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 05:52:31 +0000 Subject: Resurrecting integrated circuits by cooking them. In-Reply-To: <0e9b9ebd4ead579c831b121f14d2feda@rittwage.com> References: <1ac85d301d13cbfe0a24cfd20f13a47d479b4f1a.camel@gmail.com>, <0e9b9ebd4ead579c831b121f14d2feda@rittwage.com> Message-ID: Failure of the POKEY chip were likely bonding wire failures. Voltage stress failures are not likely to self repair. I would agree, the fix is likely temporary. Many early chips used gold wire for bonding but later chips used aluminum. Which is better is always a question. The pads on the die were usually aluminum, while the package was often gold. These are acoustically bonded. One wonders if one put a capacitor on the lead with a non-lethal voltage and used such a heating method, it might be able to arc weld the wire back on. Using the method of heating might enhance the success as well. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Pete Rittwage via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2019 6:24 PM To: Jeffrey S. Worley ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Resurrecting integrated circuits by cooking them. On 2019-07-24 13:31, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote: > Yesterday evening, in the process of refurbishing five very badly > treated Atari 800 computers I had a hunch and subjected a failed Pokey > chip (Atari Part CO12294 Wikki link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POKEY > ) to high heat by way of the barrel of my soldering iron until > saliva evaporated from it in about 1 second. > > The chip, which did not work before in any of the machines now works > perfectly. > > Pokey (see wikki link) is common to all Atari 8-bit computers and > common in many Atari coinop video game systems. These chips are > becoming scarce, so much so there is a sort of replacement being > manufactured > https://hotrodarcade.com/products/pokeyone-atari-pokey-chip-replacement-for-atari-arcade-games > . > > The replacement Pokey only emulates the audio portion of the original > chip, leaving the PotKEY part unimplemented. Pokey gets its name from > Potentiometer Keyboard. It also handles the Atari SIO peripheral > signals, so without those an Atari computer cannot use standard > peripherals like serial disk drives, and other common interfaces. > Thus, for Atari computers a true Pokey is a must. > > I stumbled upon a fix for this one and wonder if I reinvented the wheel > or if this information may be of use to the group in treating other > sorts of chips. > > Reflowing is a treatment for a lot of hardware these days and generally > regarded as a hack which won't last. As modern hardware, CPU's and > video chips in particular run very hot, I can see how this might be, > but Pokey and most of the stuff we work with don't have this > environmental restriction. Most of our gear runs at 40 degrees > centigrade or lower. So I'm guessing the problem with my disused chip > was oxidation within the package and that cooking the chip a bit > cleaned things up? Any advise or observations would be appreciated. > > I tried this on another chip the same evening, an Antic. The Antic DID > work for a second or two, whereas it had before given no signs of life, > but then returned to its failed state. > > Best, > > Jeff > (Technoid Mutant) I tried this a year or two back with about 30 x SID, VIC, and PLA chips out of C64's. I heated them in the oven at about 250 for 15 minutes. None of them showed any more signs of life than before I tried it, unfortunately. -- -Pete Rittwage From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Thu Jul 25 05:18:33 2019 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 12:18:33 +0200 Subject: Resurrecting integrated circuits by cooking them. In-Reply-To: References: <1ac85d301d13cbfe0a24cfd20f13a47d479b4f1a.camel@gmail.com> , <0e9b9ebd4ead579c831b121f14d2feda@rittwage.com> Message-ID: tor 2019-07-25 klockan 05:52 +0000 skrev dwight via cctalk: > Failure of the POKEY chip were likely bonding wire failures. Voltage > stress failures are not likely to self repair. > I would agree, the fix is likely temporary. If chip inside consumer stuff is so prone to this failure, what is the difference in working technique behind military grade things which in many cases has a shelf life between 20-30 years ? From plamenspam at afterpeople.com Thu Jul 25 05:07:39 2019 From: plamenspam at afterpeople.com (Plamen Mihaylov) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 13:07:39 +0300 Subject: AIX 5L/ia64 media? Message-ID: I know it was a short lived, but anyone has the installation cd or iso image? From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Thu Jul 25 12:09:17 2019 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 13:09:17 -0400 Subject: MicroPDP-11/23+ cabinet kit cables Message-ID: <68fee242-b4df-787f-343a-80c8b44424b0@comcast.net> I'm putting together a MicroPDP-11/23 in a BA23 box.? Have the M8189 CPU quad width board and the bulkhead cabinet kit, with two DB25 connectors and switches to set the baud rate.? On bitsavers the 'MicroPDP11 system technical manual' shows how to set jumpers on the M8189 to allow this cabkit set the baud rate, but only briefly mentions the cables needed. Does anyone here have a anatomically correct MicroPDP-11/23+ in a BA23 box and can tell me how the cabling goes from the M8189 CPU board to the bulkhead cabinet kit? Doug From fritzm at fritzm.org Thu Jul 25 12:29:58 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 10:29:58 -0700 Subject: keycaps / switches for Tek 4006 Message-ID: <8A529627-5745-4EDF-97B1-4F4508B5EAD8@fritzm.org> Hi folks, I recently obtained a Tek 4006 from eBay as a repair/restoration project. It is missing a few keycaps (both SHIFT keycaps, COPY, LINE FEED, and :/*). In addition, one of the key mechanisms has a broken plunger. Last, the little green paddle line power toggle power switch at the back appears to be broken. Pinging here to see if anybody has spares of these in their collection which they'd be willing to part with? Alternatively, recommendations on compatible key mechanisms/caps, or even 3D models to print some temporary replacements would be appreciated! cheers, --FritzM. From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Jul 25 13:50:45 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 11:50:45 -0700 Subject: AIX 5L/ia64 media? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Jul 25, 2019, at 3:07 AM, Plamen Mihaylov via cctalk wrote: > > I know it was a short lived, but anyone has the installation cd or iso > image? I was curious about why this would exist, so googled it. It looks like it was only a Beta Release from 2001, it was never a real product. Who knows what sort of Hardware it might have run on. Zane From technoid6502 at gmail.com Thu Jul 25 14:08:41 2019 From: technoid6502 at gmail.com (Jeffrey S. Worley) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 15:08:41 -0400 Subject: Resurrecting integrated circuits by cooking them. Message-ID: Does this mean that, like me scratching a bit at the package to expose enough nub of broken-off pin to get a blob of solder on to hold a new leg made of wire can theoretically be extended to shaving off the top of the package to expose the IC and then tack soldering the severed wire back onto it? This would probably require some serious equipment I don't have, but sounds possible in extremity. RSVP YHOSvt. ** TNM ** Dwight said: "Message: 6 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 05:52:31 +0000 From: dwight To: Pete Rittwage , "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Resurrecting integrated circuits by cooking them. Message-ID: < BYAPR01MB5608F4C8A3860C2A7D2BC172A3C10 at BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" "Failure of the POKEY chip were likely bonding wire failures. Voltage stress failures are not likely to self repair. I would agree, the fix is likely temporary. Many early chips used gold wire for bonding but later chips used aluminum. Which is better is always a question. The pads on the die were usually aluminum, while the package was often gold. These are acoustically bonded. One wonders if one put a capacitor on the lead with a non-lethal voltage and used such a heating method, it might be able to arc weld the wire back on. Using the method of heating might enhance the success as well. Dwight" From pat at vax11.net Thu Jul 25 14:33:58 2019 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 15:33:58 -0400 Subject: AIX 5L/ia64 media? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 2:50 PM Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > > > On Jul 25, 2019, at 3:07 AM, Plamen Mihaylov via cctalk wrote: > > > > I know it was a short lived, but anyone has the installation cd or iso > > image? > > I was curious about why this would exist, so googled it. It looks like it was only a Beta Release from 2001, it was never a real product. Who knows what sort of Hardware it might have run on. IBM sold some X-series servers with Itanium processors, so I'd assume that was the target. Pat From fritzm at fritzm.org Thu Jul 25 19:40:15 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 17:40:15 -0700 Subject: keycaps / switches for Tek 4006 In-Reply-To: <8A529627-5745-4EDF-97B1-4F4508B5EAD8@fritzm.org> References: <8A529627-5745-4EDF-97B1-4F4508B5EAD8@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <967ADA61-97EB-4A11-82A2-55FB3323A3D9@fritzm.org> > On Jul 25, 2019, at 10:29 AM, Fritz Mueller wrote: > > I recently obtained a Tek 4006 from eBay as a repair/restoration project. It is missing a few keycaps (both SHIFT keycaps, COPY, LINE FEED, and :/*). In addition, one of the key mechanisms has a broken plunger. Last, the little green paddle line power toggle power switch at the back appears to be broken. After disassembly, I can see the keyboard assembly are marked "Cherry" and part number is B76-07AA. I'm not enough of a keyboard wonk to know if these are still-mfg'd cherry key mechanisms? The keycaps look like glossy dark gray / white double-shot deals... --FritzM. From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Jul 25 21:03:58 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 21:03:58 -0500 Subject: keycaps / switches for Tek 4006 In-Reply-To: <967ADA61-97EB-4A11-82A2-55FB3323A3D9@fritzm.org> References: <8A529627-5745-4EDF-97B1-4F4508B5EAD8@fritzm.org> <967ADA61-97EB-4A11-82A2-55FB3323A3D9@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <5D3A5F8E.4040605@pico-systems.com> On 07/25/2019 07:40 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: > >> On Jul 25, 2019, at 10:29 AM, Fritz Mueller wrote: >> >> I recently obtained a Tek 4006 from eBay as a repair/restoration project. It is missing a few keycaps (both SHIFT keycaps, COPY, LINE FEED, and :/*). In addition, one of the key mechanisms has a broken plunger. Last, the little green paddle line power toggle power switch at the back appears to be broken. > After disassembly, I can see the keyboard assembly are marked "Cherry" and part number is B76-07AA. I'm not enough of a keyboard wonk to know if these are still-mfg'd cherry key mechanisms? > > I'm pretty sure Cherry is not still making these keyboards. But, there were a HELL of a lot of them made over the years. There were several key switch styles in use - really cheap plunger that spreads the contacts apart when up, a magnet and reed switch type, a Hall sensor type, and maybe a capacitance type. The key switches should be able to be replaced fairly easily. Special keycaps will be a harder problem to solve. Jon From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Jul 25 21:11:03 2019 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 19:11:03 -0700 Subject: MicroPDP-11/23+ cabinet kit cables In-Reply-To: <68fee242-b4df-787f-343a-80c8b44424b0@comcast.net> References: <68fee242-b4df-787f-343a-80c8b44424b0@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 10:09 AM Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > I'm putting together a MicroPDP-11/23 in a BA23 box. Have the M8189 CPU > quad width board and the bulkhead cabinet kit, with two DB25 connectors > and switches to set the baud rate. On bitsavers the 'MicroPDP11 system > technical manual' shows how to set jumpers on the M8189 to allow this > cabkit set the baud rate, but only briefly mentions the cables needed. > > Does anyone here have a anatomically correct MicroPDP-11/23+ in a BA23 > box and can tell me how the cabling goes from the M8189 CPU board to the > bulkhead cabinet kit? I might have a console panel for an M8189 KDF11-B 11/23+. If I do, I couldn't find it the first couple of places I looked. Or maybe I have a console panel for an M7554 KDJ11-D 11/53, I forget which one, or both, or neither that I have. Anyway, back to the cable for the console panel for an M8189 KDF11-B 11/23+, isn't that just a 20 conductor ribbon cable that attaches to the 20-pin connector on console panel, then on the M8189 end it splits in the middle into two 10 conductor halves for the two 10-pin connectors on the M8189? To use the baud rate switches on the console panel the M8189 needs to be jumpered for external baud rate generation. The console panel contains a baud rate generator which feeds the baud clock into pin 1 of each of the two 10-pin connectors. From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Thu Jul 25 21:32:44 2019 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 22:32:44 -0400 Subject: MicroPDP-11/23+ cabinet kit cables In-Reply-To: References: <68fee242-b4df-787f-343a-80c8b44424b0@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1f2f4405-1540-9753-4f40-bd7db1a1b236@comcast.net> On 7/25/2019 10:11 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 10:09 AM Douglas Taylor via cctalk > wrote: >> I'm putting together a MicroPDP-11/23 in a BA23 box. Have the M8189 CPU >> quad width board and the bulkhead cabinet kit, with two DB25 connectors >> and switches to set the baud rate. On bitsavers the 'MicroPDP11 system >> technical manual' shows how to set jumpers on the M8189 to allow this >> cabkit set the baud rate, but only briefly mentions the cables needed. >> >> Does anyone here have a anatomically correct MicroPDP-11/23+ in a BA23 >> box and can tell me how the cabling goes from the M8189 CPU board to the >> bulkhead cabinet kit? > I might have a console panel for an M8189 KDF11-B 11/23+. If I do, I > couldn't find it the first couple of places I looked. Or maybe I have > a console panel for an M7554 KDJ11-D 11/53, I forget which one, or > both, or neither that I have. > > Anyway, back to the cable for the console panel for an M8189 KDF11-B > 11/23+, isn't that just a 20 conductor ribbon cable that attaches to > the 20-pin connector on console panel, then on the M8189 end it splits > in the middle into two 10 conductor halves for the two 10-pin > connectors on the M8189? > > To use the baud rate switches on the console panel the M8189 needs to > be jumpered for external baud rate generation. The console panel > contains a baud rate generator which feeds the baud clock into pin 1 > of each of the two 10-pin connectors. Yes, it is a 20 pin cable at the bulkhead.? I appears to be keyed so you can't put it in wrong.? The 10 pin connectors on the CPU board don't seem to be keyed, so my uncertainty is about how the cable wires go from the 20 pin bulkhead to each 10 pin connector. Is there something that gives the orientation away??? I thought maybe tracing the Rx Tx pins on the DB25 connector to the 20 pin cable, then on to the 10 pin CPU connector.? These probably go straight thru without any diversion. From dittman at dittman.net Thu Jul 25 21:46:26 2019 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 21:46:26 -0500 Subject: DEC Pro380 problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <31cced49-bfa7-cf49-f0c3-2b4e2eafa130@dittman.net> On 7/23/2019 7:45 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Jul 19, 2019, at 10:52 PM, Eric Dittman via cctalk wrote: >> >> I pulled my Pro380 out of storage after getting a replacement >> VR201 monitor. I connected it all together and on powerup I >> get the following display: >> >> http://www.dittman.net/pro380/screen.jpg >> >> The tech manual says this is an error from slot 1 (the hard >> drive controller) and the error is "Non-existent memory trap >> occurred for longer than 20 seconds". >> >> I reseated all the cards. I noticed three ICs are missing on >> the hard drive controller but I don't know if they are empty >> or someone removed the ICs (I can't remember where I got this >> system). I can't find a picture of the controller to compare. >> >> The missing ICs can be seen here: >> >> http://www.dittman.net/pro380/missingics.jpg > > That's normal. I have a working 380 (well, last time I powered it up) and it has the same three empty sockets as yours. > > The description of the error code isn't very clear. It might mean that the card is detected (slot present register says there is a card) but the attempts to read the card ID code and associated selftest ROM failed. That would explain why the second line is 177776 rather than the card ID (000401). > > You might need to clean the connector contacts (connector and backplane) and also check for damaged contacts. Okay, I looked at the slot and it looks like one of the first pins is missing: https://www.dittman.net/pro380/pro380missingpin.jpg I removed the HD controller and it fails to boot from floppy as well. The error codes change but seem to point to the RX50 drive being bad. I had another Pro380 but it's come up missing so I can't swap parts. I guess I'll keep an eye out for another one. -- Eric Dittman From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Jul 25 21:58:37 2019 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 19:58:37 -0700 Subject: MicroPDP-11/23+ cabinet kit cables In-Reply-To: <1f2f4405-1540-9753-4f40-bd7db1a1b236@comcast.net> References: <68fee242-b4df-787f-343a-80c8b44424b0@comcast.net> <1f2f4405-1540-9753-4f40-bd7db1a1b236@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 7:32 PM Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 7/25/2019 10:11 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 10:09 AM Douglas Taylor via cctalk > > wrote: > >> I'm putting together a MicroPDP-11/23 in a BA23 box. Have the M8189 CPU > >> quad width board and the bulkhead cabinet kit, with two DB25 connectors > >> and switches to set the baud rate. On bitsavers the 'MicroPDP11 system > >> technical manual' shows how to set jumpers on the M8189 to allow this > >> cabkit set the baud rate, but only briefly mentions the cables needed. > >> > >> Does anyone here have a anatomically correct MicroPDP-11/23+ in a BA23 > >> box and can tell me how the cabling goes from the M8189 CPU board to the > >> bulkhead cabinet kit? > > I might have a console panel for an M8189 KDF11-B 11/23+. If I do, I > > couldn't find it the first couple of places I looked. Or maybe I have > > a console panel for an M7554 KDJ11-D 11/53, I forget which one, or > > both, or neither that I have. > > > > Anyway, back to the cable for the console panel for an M8189 KDF11-B > > 11/23+, isn't that just a 20 conductor ribbon cable that attaches to > > the 20-pin connector on console panel, then on the M8189 end it splits > > in the middle into two 10 conductor halves for the two 10-pin > > connectors on the M8189? > > > > To use the baud rate switches on the console panel the M8189 needs to > > be jumpered for external baud rate generation. The console panel > > contains a baud rate generator which feeds the baud clock into pin 1 > > of each of the two 10-pin connectors. > > Yes, it is a 20 pin cable at the bulkhead. I appears to be keyed so you > can't put it in wrong. The 10 pin connectors on the CPU board don't > seem to be keyed, so my uncertainty is about how the cable wires go from > the 20 pin bulkhead to each 10 pin connector. Is there something that > gives the orientation away? I thought maybe tracing the Rx Tx pins on > the DB25 connector to the 20 pin cable, then on to the 10 pin CPU > connector. These probably go straight thru without any diversion. In the photos that I have found of the M8189 console panel there is a '1' just above the top right of the 20-pin connector indicating Pin 1. A trace can be seen leading from that pin to the baud rate circuitry. So that pin would go to Pin 1 of one of the 10-pin connectors on the M8189. Then 5 pins over from the Pin 1 on the console panel another trace can be seen leading from that other pin to the baud rate circuitry. So that would be Pin 1 of the second half of the cable going to Pin 1 of the other 10-pin connector on the M8189. From sales at elecplus.com Thu Jul 25 22:40:01 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 22:40:01 -0500 Subject: keycaps / switches for Tek 4006 In-Reply-To: <967ADA61-97EB-4A11-82A2-55FB3323A3D9@fritzm.org> References: <8A529627-5745-4EDF-97B1-4F4508B5EAD8@fritzm.org> <967ADA61-97EB-4A11-82A2-55FB3323A3D9@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On 7/25/19 7:40 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: > >> On Jul 25, 2019, at 10:29 AM, Fritz Mueller wrote: >> >> I recently obtained a Tek 4006 from eBay as a repair/restoration project. It is missing a few keycaps (both SHIFT keycaps, COPY, LINE FEED, and :/*). In addition, one of the key mechanisms has a broken plunger. Last, the little green paddle line power toggle power switch at the back appears to be broken. > After disassembly, I can see the keyboard assembly are marked "Cherry" and part number is B76-07AA. I'm not enough of a keyboard wonk to know if these are still-mfg'd cherry key mechanisms? > > The keycaps look like glossy dark gray / white double-shot deals... > > --FritzM. > Can you take a picture of the switches? Cindy From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jul 25 23:10:55 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 04:10:55 +0000 Subject: Resurrecting integrated circuits by cooking them. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Sam On one of the projects I worked on, we had a lockup problem ( CMOS issue ). It would blow either the VCC or GND lead. We had a wire bonder in the lab. I'd remove the cap from ceramic chips and bond on a new wire. It would work fine until we sequence the power wrong and it would blow wire again. The CMOS technology guy stated they shouldn't do this but it still happened ( simulation vrs real world ). I suspect those parts that have an open lead are bonding wire failures and not silicon failures. If you were setup to install bonding wires, it is technically possible to repair such failures. In a plastic part, that might be more difficult than a ceramic package. Not all failures are bonding wire failures. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2019 12:08 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Resurrecting integrated circuits by cooking them. Does this mean that, like me scratching a bit at the package to expose enough nub of broken-off pin to get a blob of solder on to hold a new leg made of wire can theoretically be extended to shaving off the top of the package to expose the IC and then tack soldering the severed wire back onto it? This would probably require some serious equipment I don't have, but sounds possible in extremity. RSVP YHOSvt. ** TNM ** Dwight said: "Message: 6 Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 05:52:31 +0000 From: dwight To: Pete Rittwage , "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Resurrecting integrated circuits by cooking them. Message-ID: < BYAPR01MB5608F4C8A3860C2A7D2BC172A3C10 at BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" "Failure of the POKEY chip were likely bonding wire failures. Voltage stress failures are not likely to self repair. I would agree, the fix is likely temporary. Many early chips used gold wire for bonding but later chips used aluminum. Which is better is always a question. The pads on the die were usually aluminum, while the package was often gold. These are acoustically bonded. One wonders if one put a capacitor on the lead with a non-lethal voltage and used such a heating method, it might be able to arc weld the wire back on. Using the method of heating might enhance the success as well. Dwight" From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jul 26 05:37:27 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 12:37:27 +0200 Subject: keycaps / switches for Tek 4006 In-Reply-To: <967ADA61-97EB-4A11-82A2-55FB3323A3D9@fritzm.org> References: <8A529627-5745-4EDF-97B1-4F4508B5EAD8@fritzm.org> <967ADA61-97EB-4A11-82A2-55FB3323A3D9@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Jul 2019 at 02:40, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: > > After disassembly, I can see the keyboard assembly are marked "Cherry" and part number is B76-07AA. I'm not enough of a keyboard wonk to know if these are still-mfg'd cherry key mechanisms? Cheery are still around. Ask them? https://www.cherry.co.uk/service-downloads/contact.html https://www.cherryamericas.com/contact/ https://www.cherry.co.uk/imprint -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jul 26 06:23:10 2019 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 06:23:10 -0500 Subject: IBM 5160 with oddball MDA input/output card Message-ID: Hi all, Someone on one of the Facebook vintage groups found an IBM 5160 with an MDA display for sale in Australia, except that it's a bit odd in that the machine had what appears to be an MDA card, the output of which is then connected via a short external cable to the input on another card, and then an output that card is what's actually hooked up to the monitor. The only internal photo of the machine is very poor, unfortunately. I'm reasonably confident that the "first" card in the "mystery" chain is MDA, it's full-length and alongside the DE-shell video output has the usual DB-25 for parallel. The "mystery" card is also full-length, and there's another full-length card immediately adjacent to it with no external connectors - that one could easily be RAM, or the hard disk controller etc. but I suppose it's possible that the mystery item is actually a two-card set. Anyway, any guesses as to what it might be? The implication is that the mystery card adds functionality to the MDA card (reminiscent of 3DFX boards years later), but of course is operating within the confines of what the MDA display's capable of. cheers Jules From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jul 26 08:55:36 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 09:55:36 -0400 Subject: DEC Pro380 problems In-Reply-To: <31cced49-bfa7-cf49-f0c3-2b4e2eafa130@dittman.net> References: <31cced49-bfa7-cf49-f0c3-2b4e2eafa130@dittman.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 10:46 PM Eric Dittman via cctalk wrote:> >> I pulled my Pro380 out of storage... > > Okay, I looked at the slot and it looks like one of the first pins is > missing: > > https://www.dittman.net/pro380/pro380missingpin.jpg Bummer. I have a floppy controller that had the wiper in the ZIF socket fail so it won't unclamp all the pins to slide down the backplane slot. I suppose you need what I need - a dead board to steal the connector from. There are short and long connectors - so far, I see the short connectors on I/O cards and long connectors on memory and video cards. I haven't dug into the reference manual deep enough to see the signal differences. > I removed the HD controller and it fails to boot from floppy as well. > The error codes change but seem to point to the RX50 drive being bad. I've had 1 or 2 RX50 drives go out over the years. They are essentially unrepairable outside of simple mechanical failures (broken door latches mostly). > I had another Pro380 but it's come up missing so I can't swap parts. > I guess I'll keep an eye out for another one. I only have one Pro380 (a former console for our VAX8530 from the 90s) but I've been able to borrow test parts from a Pro350. Unfortunately, I have fewer full-sets of cards than I have boxes (classic N-1 problem). I seem to have a lot of memory cards and only one extra bitplane (color graphics) card. I think I have one wonky primary video card (garbage video) and one RX50 controller with a broken ZIF connector. 20 years ago, it was easy to find cheap/free Pro350 pickups. I haven't seen Professional boxes in the wild in quite some time, and I don't remember anyone selling loose cards. Perhaps they did but they weren't visible about it. -ethan From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Jul 26 09:50:07 2019 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 15:50:07 +0100 Subject: IBM 5160 with oddball MDA input/output card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 12:23 PM Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > > Hi all, > > Someone on one of the Facebook vintage groups found an IBM 5160 with an MDA > display for sale in Australia, except that it's a bit odd in that the > machine had what appears to be an MDA card, the output of which is then > connected via a short external cable to the input on another card, and then > an output that card is what's actually hooked up to the monitor. Are you sure it's MDA rather than CGA. The reason I ask is that I have a full-length 8-bit ISA card in my collection that connects between the CGA card and its monitor (it also provides a composite video output if you want that) _and_ inside the machine it connects between the floppy controller and the drives. There's a 6502 processor on said card and it claims to provide an emulation of the Apple ][ If yours is MDA then I wonder if it's some graphics add-on (remember the original MDA was text only). But most of those, like the Hercules, provided the text mode as well and were stand-alone cards. It wasn't much extra logic to do that. -tony From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Jul 26 10:23:31 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 11:23:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MicroPDP-11/23+ cabinet kit cables Message-ID: <20190726152331.8DB2518C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Douglas Taylor > I'm putting together a MicroPDP-11/23 in a BA23 box. Have the M8189 CPU > quad width board and the bulkhead cabinet kit .. how the cabling goes > from the M8189 CPU board to the bulkhead cabinet kit? I _think_ this might be the cable you need: https://www.ebay.com/itm/CK-KDF11-CABLE-ONLY-P-N-70-20451-1C/151622708242 but I'm not familiar with the cab kit, so I'm not sure. > The 10 pin connectors on the CPU board don't seem to be keyed ... > Is there something that gives the orientation away? These 10 pin EIA connectors (same in the DLV11-J, KDJ11-B, etc) are keyed, with a missing pin. DEC cables for these connectors have a plug in the matching hole. > From: Glen Slick > In the photos that I have found of the M8189 console panel there is a > '1' just above the top right of the 20-pin connector indicating Pin 1. > A trace can be seen leading from that pin to the baud rate circuitry. > So that pin would go to Pin 1 of one of the 10-pin connectors on the M8189. Y'all love to re-invent the wheel, I see: http://gunkies.org/wiki/DEC_asynchronous_serial_line_pinout#10_pin_header I should check to see if the KDJ11-B has the same external baud rate selection support, and if so, update the page to add it. Oh, that's the other way to tell the orientation, with non-flat-cable cables; with the loopback jumper on pins 7&9. Noel From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jul 26 11:25:21 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 18:25:21 +0200 Subject: IBM 5160 with oddball MDA input/output card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Jul 2019 at 13:23, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > Someone on one of the Facebook vintage groups Oh? Which one? -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Fri Jul 26 12:08:30 2019 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 13:08:30 -0400 Subject: MicroPDP-11/23+ cabinet kit cables In-Reply-To: <20190726152331.8DB2518C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190726152331.8DB2518C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <2fccf4e5-3b23-46ac-ebcd-eb480f57dab1@comcast.net> Noel; Yep, that's the one.? I never thought one would be on ebay.? Imagine searching by the part number.... Doug On 7/26/2019 11:23 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Douglas Taylor > > > I'm putting together a MicroPDP-11/23 in a BA23 box. Have the M8189 CPU > > quad width board and the bulkhead cabinet kit .. how the cabling goes > > from the M8189 CPU board to the bulkhead cabinet kit? > > I _think_ this might be the cable you need: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/CK-KDF11-CABLE-ONLY-P-N-70-20451-1C/151622708242 > > but I'm not familiar with the cab kit, so I'm not sure. > > > The 10 pin connectors on the CPU board don't seem to be keyed ... > > Is there something that gives the orientation away? > > These 10 pin EIA connectors (same in the DLV11-J, KDJ11-B, etc) are keyed, > with a missing pin. DEC cables for these connectors have a plug in the > matching hole. > > > > From: Glen Slick > > > In the photos that I have found of the M8189 console panel there is a > > '1' just above the top right of the 20-pin connector indicating Pin 1. > > A trace can be seen leading from that pin to the baud rate circuitry. > > So that pin would go to Pin 1 of one of the 10-pin connectors on the M8189. > > Y'all love to re-invent the wheel, I see: > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/DEC_asynchronous_serial_line_pinout#10_pin_header > > I should check to see if the KDJ11-B has the same external baud rate > selection support, and if so, update the page to add it. > > Oh, that's the other way to tell the orientation, with non-flat-cable cables; > with the loopback jumper on pins 7&9. > > Noel From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jul 26 12:47:06 2019 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 12:47:06 -0500 Subject: IBM 5160 with oddball MDA input/output card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3c2982bd-bdd6-eb2a-e3b4-6f5db8e468c1@gmail.com> On 7/26/19 9:50 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > Are you sure it's MDA rather than CGA. The reason I ask is that I have a > full-length 8-bit ISA card in my collection that connects between the CGA > card and its monitor (it also provides a composite video output if you want > that) _and_ inside the machine it connects between the floppy controller and > the drives. Hi Tony, The person who was asking about it said that it's a 5151 display, although I've not seen any photos showing the front of the machine/monitor, so I can't be 100% certain. Having said that, the lower part of the monitor's back is visible in one photo, and it has captive power + video cables off to the left and no controls, which seems consistent with a 5151; I believe that the 5153 and 5154 had a power socket and brightness/contrast controls on them. > > There's a 6502 processor on said card and it claims to provide an emulation > of the Apple ][ That's an interesting beast. I did wonder if this was something along those lines, too, i.e. a non-x86 processor card for the purposes of emulating something else - but the only one I'm aware of is the XT/370, and I don't believe that did any kind of video pass-through (that and I think it was a three-board set, where this is two at most). > If yours is MDA then I wonder if it's some graphics add-on (remember > the original > MDA was text only). But most of those, like the Hercules, provided the text mode > as well and were stand-alone cards. It wasn't much extra logic to do that. Indeed. Whatever it is still appears to run within the limits of the MDA display, so it's not color, and resolution-wise it must be more or less in line with Hercules. As you say, there wasn't a massive increase in logic when comparing Hercules to MDA, so it seems odd for a card to exist which still required an MDA adapter to be present; I feel there's got to be some additional functionality being offered, too. cheers, Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jul 26 12:50:15 2019 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 12:50:15 -0500 Subject: IBM 5160 with oddball MDA input/output card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <75095d18-6a2b-25a5-7e1e-7b9cfcf0548a@gmail.com> On 7/26/19 11:25 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 26 Jul 2019 at 13:23, Jules Richardson via cctalk > wrote: >> >> Someone on one of the Facebook vintage groups > > Oh? Which one? It's in Vintage Computer Club, posted on the 24th. Doubtless Facebook's buried it for you because it seems to enjoy hiding info from people whenever possible these days, but a search within the group for "5160" will presumably find it. cheers, Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jul 26 14:53:26 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 12:53:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5160 with oddball MDA input/output card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Jul 2019, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > Someone on one of the Facebook vintage groups found an IBM 5160 with an MDA > display for sale in Australia, except that it's a bit odd in that the machine > had what appears to be an MDA card, the output of which is then connected via > a short external cable to the input on another card, and then an output that > card is what's actually hooked up to the monitor. > > The only internal photo of the machine is very poor, unfortunately. I'm > reasonably confident that the "first" card in the "mystery" chain is MDA, > it's full-length and alongside the DE-shell video output has the usual DB-25 > for parallel. The "mystery" card is also full-length, and there's another > full-length card immediately adjacent to it with no external connectors - > that one could easily be RAM, or the hard disk controller etc. but I suppose > it's possible that the mystery item is actually a two-card set. > > Anyway, any guesses as to what it might be? The implication is that the > mystery card adds functionality to the MDA card (reminiscent of 3DFX boards > years later), but of course is operating within the confines of what the MDA > display's capable of. Genlock? MOST video add-ons were combined onto a board with their own video card, rather than connecting to IBM's Co-processor? Diamond Computer Trackstar was an Apple2 on an ISA card. It was even sold [briefly] by Radio Shack. Quadram Quadlink was an Apple2 on an ISA card. The college bought 20 of them. 14 were DOA. 8 of the replacements ("THESE ones are thoroughly tested") were also DOA. One had a connector (right angle dual row?) mounted backwards, and could not be connected for testing. But, MDA (or MDP as described) seems less likely. "Who would want to do Visicalc or word processing without COLOR??" There did exist a few after-market CGA cards that had DE9 and DB25 (printer). Was it in working order? Or had somebody merely cabled the MDA video to a DE9 serial port? And 5151 will physically connect to CGA (and not work) We had a couple of "instructors" at the college who didn't see anything wrong with connecting any cables that fit, including swapping bus mouse and video, or wanting gender changers to try to connect a parallel printer to a 25 pin serial port ormodem to printer port. It is frustrating to try to deal with some people. From phb.hfx at gmail.com Fri Jul 26 15:04:16 2019 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 17:04:16 -0300 Subject: IBM 5160 with oddball MDA input/output card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <996b82fe-570e-0784-9b9d-75ad627de013@gmail.com> On 2019-07-26 4:53 p.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 26 Jul 2019, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: >> Someone on one of the Facebook vintage groups found an IBM 5160 with >> an MDA display for sale in Australia, except that it's a bit odd in >> that the machine had what appears to be an MDA card, the output of >> which is then connected via a short external cable to the input on >> another card, and then an output that card is what's actually hooked >> up to the monitor. >> >> The only internal photo of the machine is very poor, unfortunately. >> I'm reasonably confident that the "first" card in the "mystery" chain >> is MDA, it's full-length and alongside the DE-shell video output has >> the usual DB-25 for parallel. The "mystery" card is also full-length, >> and there's another full-length card immediately adjacent to it with >> no external connectors - that one could easily be RAM, or the hard >> disk controller etc.? but I suppose it's possible that the mystery >> item is actually a two-card set. >> >> Anyway, any guesses as to what it might be? The implication is that >> the mystery card adds functionality to the MDA card (reminiscent of >> 3DFX boards years later), but of course is operating within the >> confines of what the MDA display's capable of. > > > Genlock? > MOST video add-ons were combined onto a board with their own video > card, rather than connecting to IBM's > > Co-processor? > ????Diamond Computer Trackstar was an Apple2 on an ISA card. It was > even sold [briefly] by Radio Shack. > ????Quadram Quadlink was an Apple2 on an ISA card.? The college bought > 20 of them.? 14 were DOA.? 8 of the replacements ("THESE ones are > thoroughly tested") were also DOA.? One had a connector (right angle > dual row?) mounted backwards, and could not be connected for testing. > > But, MDA (or MDP as described) seems less likely.? "Who would want to > do Visicalc or word processing without COLOR??"? There did exist a few > after-market CGA cards that had DE9 and DB25 (printer). > > > Was it in working order?? Or had somebody merely cabled the MDA video > to a DE9 serial port?? And 5151 will physically connect to CGA (and > not work) > We had a couple of "instructors" at the college who didn't see > anything wrong with connecting any cables that fit, including swapping > bus mouse and video, or wanting gender changers to try to connect a > parallel printer to a 25 pin serial port ormodem to printer port.?? It > is frustrating to try to deal with some people. I know of a "trained" service technician who inserted an PCI card into a ISA card slot and then call for assistance because it did not work.??? Fix.. swap technician... Paul. From raywjewhurst at gmail.com Fri Jul 26 15:21:48 2019 From: raywjewhurst at gmail.com (Ray Jewhurst) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 16:21:48 -0400 Subject: IBM 5160 with oddball MDA input/output card In-Reply-To: <996b82fe-570e-0784-9b9d-75ad627de013@gmail.com> References: <996b82fe-570e-0784-9b9d-75ad627de013@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have been out of the PC tech game for almost 20 years and even I know the difference between ISA, PCI, MCA and AGP. I've never actually seen an EISA in the flesh though. Ray On Fri, Jul 26, 2019, 4:04 PM Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > > On 2019-07-26 4:53 p.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, 26 Jul 2019, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > >> Someone on one of the Facebook vintage groups found an IBM 5160 with > >> an MDA display for sale in Australia, except that it's a bit odd in > >> that the machine had what appears to be an MDA card, the output of > >> which is then connected via a short external cable to the input on > >> another card, and then an output that card is what's actually hooked > >> up to the monitor. > >> > >> The only internal photo of the machine is very poor, unfortunately. > >> I'm reasonably confident that the "first" card in the "mystery" chain > >> is MDA, it's full-length and alongside the DE-shell video output has > >> the usual DB-25 for parallel. The "mystery" card is also full-length, > >> and there's another full-length card immediately adjacent to it with > >> no external connectors - that one could easily be RAM, or the hard > >> disk controller etc. but I suppose it's possible that the mystery > >> item is actually a two-card set. > >> > >> Anyway, any guesses as to what it might be? The implication is that > >> the mystery card adds functionality to the MDA card (reminiscent of > >> 3DFX boards years later), but of course is operating within the > >> confines of what the MDA display's capable of. > > > > > > Genlock? > > MOST video add-ons were combined onto a board with their own video > > card, rather than connecting to IBM's > > > > Co-processor? > > Diamond Computer Trackstar was an Apple2 on an ISA card. It was > > even sold [briefly] by Radio Shack. > > Quadram Quadlink was an Apple2 on an ISA card. The college bought > > 20 of them. 14 were DOA. 8 of the replacements ("THESE ones are > > thoroughly tested") were also DOA. One had a connector (right angle > > dual row?) mounted backwards, and could not be connected for testing. > > > > But, MDA (or MDP as described) seems less likely. "Who would want to > > do Visicalc or word processing without COLOR??" There did exist a few > > after-market CGA cards that had DE9 and DB25 (printer). > > > > > > Was it in working order? Or had somebody merely cabled the MDA video > > to a DE9 serial port? And 5151 will physically connect to CGA (and > > not work) > > We had a couple of "instructors" at the college who didn't see > > anything wrong with connecting any cables that fit, including swapping > > bus mouse and video, or wanting gender changers to try to connect a > > parallel printer to a 25 pin serial port ormodem to printer port. It > > is frustrating to try to deal with some people. > > I know of a "trained" service technician who inserted an PCI card into a > ISA card slot and then call for assistance because it did not work. > Fix.. swap technician... > > Paul. > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jul 26 15:52:16 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 14:52:16 -0600 Subject: Resurrecting integrated circuits by cooking them. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4c692187-2fed-0ab6-9f8c-10e6f4cf5ee4@jetnet.ab.ca> On 7/25/2019 1:08 PM, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote: > Does this mean that, like me scratching a bit at the package to expose > enough nub of broken-off pin to get a blob of solder on to hold a new > leg made of wire can theoretically be extended to shaving off the top > of the package to expose the IC and then tack soldering the severed > wire back onto it? > The chip is DEAD what do have to loose? :) Ben. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jul 26 17:15:34 2019 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 17:15:34 -0500 Subject: IBM 5160 with oddball MDA input/output card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <516b78c1-f28d-334e-346f-6a7c2b60990c@gmail.com> On 7/26/19 2:53 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Genlock? > MOST video add-ons were combined onto a board with their own video card, > rather than connecting to IBM's It seems odd within a 5151/MDA context though - plus the system seems entirely self-contained, i.e. not designed to interact with any other video equipment. > Co-processor? > ????Diamond Computer Trackstar was an Apple2 on an ISA card. It was even > sold [briefly] by Radio Shack. > ????Quadram Quadlink was an Apple2 on an ISA card.? The college bought 20 > of them.? 14 were DOA.? 8 of the replacements ("THESE ones are thoroughly > tested") were also DOA.? One had a connector (right angle dual row?) > mounted backwards, and could not be connected for testing. Something like that is certainly sounding plausible to me - not necessarily Apple II, but *something* that provides non-x86 processor ability, and presumably which involves video output above and beyond MDA (otherwise why wouldn't it drive the MDA card directly), and yet still monochrome and compatible with a 5151. > But, MDA (or MDP as described) seems less likely.? "Who would want to do > Visicalc or word processing without COLOR??"? There did exist a few > after-market CGA cards that had DE9 and DB25 (printer). I did manage to locate the original seller's listing, which didn't really provide any new information - but there were a couple of pictures of the monitor confirming that it is a 5151. > Was it in working order?? Or had somebody merely cabled the MDA video to a > DE9 serial port? The thought had crossed my mind, too. Seller's claim was that they had it booted to a DOS prompt, then smoke came out of the PSU; if they're honest then it's likely age-related demise of RF suppression caps or maybe a tantalum somewhere. I did get the impression that they don't really know what they have, i.e. to them it's just an old XT (and therefore worth a small fortune). The cable connecting the MDA's output to the mystery card does rather look like it was made for the purpose - it's conveniently long enough to bridge between one or two slots, and the cable appears to exit the connectors at a 45 degree angle to account for the MDA's output being toward the top of the card while the input to the mystery card is toward the bottom. > We had a couple of "instructors" at the college who didn't see anything > wrong with connecting any cables that fit, including swapping bus mouse and > video, or wanting gender changers to try to connect a parallel printer to a > 25 pin serial port ormodem to printer port.?? It is frustrating to try to > deal with some people. I suppose that's the only good thing about the modern "everything is USB" world... :/ cheers Jules From fritzm at fritzm.org Fri Jul 26 18:34:57 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 16:34:57 -0700 Subject: keycaps / switches for Tek 4006 In-Reply-To: References: <8A529627-5745-4EDF-97B1-4F4508B5EAD8@fritzm.org> <967ADA61-97EB-4A11-82A2-55FB3323A3D9@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <222284C3-C85D-480F-B7C6-A616DF9EAD9E@fritzm.org> > Can you take a picture of the switches? > Cindy Some pics of they keyboard assembly, key cap underside, key mechs, and also the power toggle I'd like to replace, are here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1dKBOdhwgpedYpYCKbGxrd3P9jCNwBRs5 https://drive.google.com/open?id=1U__BCVWJQgP-s0ZrPMBWQ21LWM2jsWjP https://drive.google.com/open?id=1hh-SXbyIW_hjeMZnbVZzx56-VRwFBcDM https://drive.google.com/open?id=17YNPFk9KUm4mZnjAV3EFCY09JXASNMtI thanks, --FritzM. From fritzm at fritzm.org Sat Jul 27 03:18:56 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2019 01:18:56 -0700 Subject: keycaps / switches for Tek 4006 In-Reply-To: <222284C3-C85D-480F-B7C6-A616DF9EAD9E@fritzm.org> References: <8A529627-5745-4EDF-97B1-4F4508B5EAD8@fritzm.org> <967ADA61-97EB-4A11-82A2-55FB3323A3D9@fritzm.org> <222284C3-C85D-480F-B7C6-A616DF9EAD9E@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <31A58555-B4E5-484E-A5A7-A508BA3ACFB5@fritzm.org> After a little more research on the net tonight: it looks like the keyboard in the 4006 was pretty much one of Cherry's standard "B70 ASR" models. The key mechs are known as M7 T-mount, and the caps look like the standard double shot ones supplied by Cherry in their mid to late 70's catalogs. A lot of the Tek terminals I've seen for sale seem to be missing a few teeth; I guess these caps didn't hold on well enough to weather the decades without a few from most keyboards getting lost along the way. It's probably worth working up some 3D models for these caps. Also, keyboard research turns up some sad, sad, things... Brrrr... :-( --FritzM. From technoid6502 at gmail.com Sat Jul 27 15:50:02 2019 From: technoid6502 at gmail.com (Jeffrey S. Worley) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2019 16:50:02 -0400 Subject: Resurrecting integrated circuits by cooking them. In-Reply-To: <0e9b9ebd4ead579c831b121f14d2feda@rittwage.com> References: <1ac85d301d13cbfe0a24cfd20f13a47d479b4f1a.camel@gmail.com> <0e9b9ebd4ead579c831b121f14d2feda@rittwage.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2019-07-24 at 21:24 -0400, Pete Rittwage wrote: I did some lookup on the reflow temperatures for various solder materials because my gut told me 250 degrees is too low to do any good. Turns out this is so. 250 CELCIUS maybe, but Fahrenheit? not. https://www.google.com/search?q=melting+point+of+solder&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=lNlL1odJeOshrM%253A%252Cdl2_5Te6VgKpAM%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kRutgIaitoyNNmWoI_dbqyF1P0xmQ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi17--3_NXjAhUK2FkKHZhiCaIQ9QEwAHoECAEQAw#imgrc=lNlL1odJeOshrM : Here's a link to that information. It looks like 220 Celciums is about right. So if you were in Fahrenheit then that would explain the total failure of the experiment and make it worth retrying. RSVP YHOSvt. ** TNM ** > > > I tried this a year or two back with about 30 x SID, VIC, and PLA > chips > out of C64's. I heated them in the oven at about 250 for 15 minutes. > None of them showed any more signs of life than before I tried it, > unfortunately. > From cube1 at charter.net Sat Jul 27 18:28:10 2019 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2019 18:28:10 -0500 Subject: IBM 5160 with oddball MDA input/output card In-Reply-To: <3c2982bd-bdd6-eb2a-e3b4-6f5db8e468c1@gmail.com> References: <3c2982bd-bdd6-eb2a-e3b4-6f5db8e468c1@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 7/26/2019 12:47 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > That's an interesting beast. I did wonder if this was something along > those lines, too, i.e. a non-x86 processor card for the purposes of > emulating something else - but the only one I'm aware of is the XT/370, > and I don't believe that did any kind of video pass-through (that and I > think it was a three-board set, where this is two at most). > The XT/370 proper was a two board set: a processor card (P-Card) and a memory card (M-Card). The XT/370 also came with a 3270 coax terminal emulation card, which might be the card you are thinking of. (And no, the XT/370 did not have anything special, video-wise). The 3270/PC had a special setup where the keyboard connected to a special connector, which connected to a special keyboard card, and also to the normal PC keyboard connector -- but nothing like what you are describing (it was only a DB9 or 15). JRJ From jsw at ieee.org Sun Jul 28 15:02:15 2019 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2019 15:02:15 -0500 Subject: Resurrecting integrated circuits by cooking them. In-Reply-To: References: <1ac85d301d13cbfe0a24cfd20f13a47d479b4f1a.camel@gmail.com> <0e9b9ebd4ead579c831b121f14d2feda@rittwage.com> Message-ID: <39ff611c-18c3-5a79-6b01-b61b491ba4d3@ieee.org> This method is not limited to "vintage" components. My MacBook Pro 2011 fails dues to its (famous) problem with the discrete AMD GPU connections.?? A reflow restores the laptop, but inevitably I have repeat the process every few months. Depending on who you believe, the fault is with the A) poor thermal design, b) BGA solder used or C) bumps on the AMD GPU itself.? The reflow is easy enough to do, but disconnecting the very fragile cables to remove the motherboard is not for everyone. Using an inexpensive infrared thermometer improves the the process. ??? Jerry On 7/27/19 3:50 PM, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 2019-07-24 at 21:24 -0400, Pete Rittwage wrote: > I did some lookup on the reflow temperatures for various solder > materials because my gut told me 250 degrees is too low to do any good. > Turns out this is so. 250 CELCIUS maybe, but Fahrenheit? not. > > > https://www.google.com/search?q=melting+point+of+solder&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=lNlL1odJeOshrM%253A%252Cdl2_5Te6VgKpAM%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kRutgIaitoyNNmWoI_dbqyF1P0xmQ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi17--3_NXjAhUK2FkKHZhiCaIQ9QEwAHoECAEQAw#imgrc=lNlL1odJeOshrM > : > > Here's a link to that information. It looks like 220 Celciums is about > right. So if you were in Fahrenheit then that would explain the total > failure of the experiment and make it worth retrying. > > RSVP > > YHOSvt. > > ** TNM ** >> >> I tried this a year or two back with about 30 x SID, VIC, and PLA >> chips >> out of C64's. I heated them in the oven at about 250 for 15 minutes. >> None of them showed any more signs of life than before I tried it, >> unfortunately. >> From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 28 16:24:40 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2019 14:24:40 -0700 Subject: Resurrecting integrated circuits by cooking them. In-Reply-To: <39ff611c-18c3-5a79-6b01-b61b491ba4d3@ieee.org> References: <1ac85d301d13cbfe0a24cfd20f13a47d479b4f1a.camel@gmail.com> <0e9b9ebd4ead579c831b121f14d2feda@rittwage.com> <39ff611c-18c3-5a79-6b01-b61b491ba4d3@ieee.org> Message-ID: On 7/28/19 1:02 PM, Jerry Weiss via cctalk wrote: > This method is not limited to "vintage" components. > > My MacBook Pro 2011 fails dues to its (famous) problem with the discrete > AMD GPU connections.?? A reflow restores the laptop, but inevitably I > have repeat the process every few months. Depending on who you believe, > the fault is with the A) poor thermal design, b) BGA solder used or C) > bumps on the AMD GPU itself.? The reflow is easy enough to do, but > disconnecting the very fragile cables to remove the motherboard is not > for everyone. Using an inexpensive infrared thermometer improves the the > process. And of course, the solder is Pb-free... --Chuck From cube1 at charter.net Sun Jul 28 20:33:21 2019 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2019 20:33:21 -0500 Subject: Resurrecting integrated circuits by cooking them. In-Reply-To: References: <1ac85d301d13cbfe0a24cfd20f13a47d479b4f1a.camel@gmail.com> <0e9b9ebd4ead579c831b121f14d2feda@rittwage.com> <39ff611c-18c3-5a79-6b01-b61b491ba4d3@ieee.org> Message-ID: <37e23e73-666b-a441-17a7-a3ba4b2c7d4c@charter.net> On 7/28/2019 4:24 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 7/28/19 1:02 PM, Jerry Weiss via cctalk wrote: >> This method is not limited to "vintage" components. >> >> My MacBook Pro 2011 fails dues to its (famous) problem with the discrete >> AMD GPU connections.?? A reflow restores the laptop, but inevitably I >> have repeat the process every few months. Depending on who you believe, >> the fault is with the A) poor thermal design, b) BGA solder used or C) >> bumps on the AMD GPU itself.? The reflow is easy enough to do, but >> disconnecting the very fragile cables to remove the motherboard is not >> for everyone. Using an inexpensive infrared thermometer improves the the >> process. > > > And of course, the solder is Pb-free... > > > --Chuck > > Exactly. And machines of that era had a lot of problems (I have reflowed two early PS/3's a total of three times, and a MacBook) as manufacturers climbed the learning curve. The Microsoft XBox 360 "Red Ring of Death" was another instance. From ray at arachelian.com Mon Jul 29 08:21:34 2019 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 09:21:34 -0400 Subject: OT: Reflowing GPUs and the fruit company (was Re: Resurrecting integrated circuits by cooking them.) In-Reply-To: <39ff611c-18c3-5a79-6b01-b61b491ba4d3@ieee.org> References: <1ac85d301d13cbfe0a24cfd20f13a47d479b4f1a.camel@gmail.com> <0e9b9ebd4ead579c831b121f14d2feda@rittwage.com> <39ff611c-18c3-5a79-6b01-b61b491ba4d3@ieee.org> Message-ID: Yup, I've had this issue too and it does come back every so often. The first time it lasted nearly a year. The second time, it lasted about 9 months. At some point it will fail to work, or I'll wind up actually damaging the chip and then it won't work anymore. Come to think of it, my very first intel macbook pro which I had back around 2004 or 2005 when it came out also died of a GPU death - I no longer have this, but I'd bet it would also be fixable the same way. Shame that the last of the 17" Macbooks is so easily killed as they're very collectible as they're the last of the 17" as well as the last of the macbooks to have end user replaceable RAM, drives and even batteries (though you have to open the case to do this, and no, they're not glued in.) Hope this issue doesn't affect the 17" G4 PowerBooks as those are really neat, but so far that one's been working great. I used an inexpensive air reflow workstation (was ~$40 off amazon and it's really just a very precise hair drier) and a lot of time. I started slowly bringing the heat nozzle down from about 6 inches all the way down to about an 1" or 2" away from the chip itself. I think I used 220-250'C on the thing, and then I left it alone for a few hours to slowly dissipate the heat and made sure I didn't touch the table it was on to prevent vibrations from messing up the shape of the solder balls, maybe I was overly protective, but it did work. The sad thing is that even with really good thermal compound and using a fan base on that machine, it still happens. Going above 300'C risks melting plastic parts, delaminating the board, etc. That laptop is poorly designed, and like many of the newer versions today suffer from heat issues. I don't know what the point of having a high end i7 or i9 in a laptop is if you can't use it because it will overheat and it will start slowing itself down. I suspect it's not a "pro" feature as much as a marketing feature. I think, before they turned evil around 2012 or so with soldered in RAM, glued in batteries, and on motherboard soldered in SSD, their stuff used to easily last 10-20 years. Now, they're just littering land fills... You're right about the flex cables, you have to be really patient and very careful. I did break one connector off the motherboard the last time I did it, but it didn't affect operation, not sure what it was for, likely the optical drive that I never use. That's another issue, the plastic gets brittle and fragile and the connectors also break, not just the flex cables. It's also hard to remember which way a plug gets released. Some have a little hinge above them that you have to pop open which releases the cable, others slide in, and others are press-down. The iFixIt manuals help a bit, but they're not always clear on which cable needs what, and it's very easy to use too much force and break something. :( Overall though I think the $40 I spent to get another 1.8 years out the machine was worth the trouble - not that it's performant or anything like that, but because it is the last of its line. Supposedly next year they'll make a 16" one, but I won't be buying it unless they add in DIMM slots, replaceable batteries, standard M2/NVME SSD drives, a headphone jack and multiple ports (not just two measly USB-C ports), and a keyboard with real travel so it doesn't feel like you're typing on a screen. And I know that won't happen, so that's why two years ago, I got a high end laptop (17" 4K display, 1070GPU, i7, 64G RAM) and put Linux on it - and it cost about the same as a 15" MBP with half the specs. I don't think I'm going back.? Even running Gallium OS on an $300 Acer R11 Chromebook feels as responsive as macOS on one of their $1000 lighter laptops and lasts for about 10 hours. And even better, it can be used in tablet mode, so no need for an iPad. I guess what it boils down to is that I'm still a fan of "Apple Computer, Inc." but that? I never really became a fan of "Apple, Inc." :-)? Sad really. In a way it feels a lot like MicroSoft back in the late 90s. Hopefully, like the new Microsoft, they'll wake up and be less evil in the future. And I'm still waiting for them to release the Lisa OS sources. :-D On 7/28/19 4:02 PM, Jerry Weiss via cctalk wrote: > This method is not limited to "vintage" components. > > My MacBook Pro 2011 fails dues to its (famous) problem with the > discrete AMD GPU connections.?? A reflow restores the laptop, but > inevitably I have repeat the process every few months. Depending on > who you believe, the fault is with the A) poor thermal design, b) BGA > solder used or C) bumps on the AMD GPU itself.? The reflow is easy > enough to do, but disconnecting the very fragile cables to remove the > motherboard is not for everyone. Using an inexpensive infrared > thermometer improves the the process. > > ??? Jerry > > On 7/27/19 3:50 PM, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote: >> On Wed, 2019-07-24 at 21:24 -0400, Pete Rittwage wrote: >> I did some lookup on the reflow temperatures for various solder >> materials because my gut told me 250 degrees is too low to do any good. >> Turns out this is so.? 250 CELCIUS maybe, but Fahrenheit? not. >> >> ? >> https://www.google.com/search?q=melting+point+of+solder&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=lNlL1odJeOshrM%253A%252Cdl2_5Te6VgKpAM%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kRutgIaitoyNNmWoI_dbqyF1P0xmQ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi17--3_NXjAhUK2FkKHZhiCaIQ9QEwAHoECAEQAw#imgrc=lNlL1odJeOshrM >> : >> >> Here's a link to that information.? It looks like 220 Celciums is about >> right.? So if you were in Fahrenheit then that would explain the total >> failure of the experiment and make it worth retrying. >> >> RSVP >> >> YHOSvt. >> >> ** TNM ** >>> >>> I tried this a year or two back with about 30 x SID, VIC, and PLA >>> chips >>> out of C64's. I heated them in the oven at about 250 for 15 minutes. >>> None of them showed any more signs of life than before I tried it, >>> unfortunately. >>> > > From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Jul 29 12:46:35 2019 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 17:46:35 +0000 Subject: Searching digital copy of KD11-K (PDP-11/60) Processor Technical Manual Message-ID: Hi Guys, I am trying to get my PDP-11/60 up and running, and I very much like to read the Processor Technical Manual. It?s ?name? is EK-KD11K-TM and I am looking for a PDF of it. I do have this manual on a microfiche, but reading a manual from the fiche reader screen is not much fun. Maybe I need to find a municipal service that allows you to copy fiche images one by one on A4 paper. The city of Venlo had that in the 1990ies, and I used it to copy the cache manual of the 11/34 from fiche to paper back then. Thanks, Henk From rtomek at ceti.pl Mon Jul 29 14:00:00 2019 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 21:00:00 +0200 Subject: OT^2: Marketish fever [was: Reflowing GPUs and the fruit company (was Re: Resurrecting integrated circuits by cooking them.)] In-Reply-To: References: <1ac85d301d13cbfe0a24cfd20f13a47d479b4f1a.camel@gmail.com> <0e9b9ebd4ead579c831b121f14d2feda@rittwage.com> <39ff611c-18c3-5a79-6b01-b61b491ba4d3@ieee.org> Message-ID: <20190729190000.GA5070@tau1.ceti.pl> On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 09:21:34AM -0400, Ray Arachelian via cctalk wrote: [...] > Overall though I think the $40 I spent to get another 1.8 years out the > machine was worth the trouble - not that it's performant or anything > like that, but because it is the last of its line. Supposedly next year > they'll make a 16" one, but I won't be buying it unless they add in DIMM > slots, replaceable batteries, standard M2/NVME SSD drives, a headphone > jack and multiple ports (not just two measly USB-C ports), and a > keyboard with real travel so it doesn't feel like you're typing on a > screen. And I know that won't happen, so that's why two years ago, I got > a high end laptop (17" 4K display, 1070GPU, i7, 64G RAM) and put Linux > on it - and it cost about the same as a 15" MBP with half the specs. I > don't think I'm going back.? Few years ago I was looking to buy some simple, inexpensive cellphones for two. In a store, there was about dozen of cheap Nokia models, all different in names, colors and shapes, but mostly very same for innards: a 128x128 lcd, vga camera, java (i.e. midp) and about 500kb of ram. Or something like this. Not a single model with just nine/or twelve/ keys and 2x16 lcd, without half baked low-end whistles which I never intended to use. I spent quite a bit of time browsing javascripted shop and clickingmoreforspecs and ended a little bit enraged. I think not many people noticed when some time later Nokia finally flopped and I cannot say I was sorry for them. I suppose the story of rise and gutting-in-the-air of flying cell phone giant would make an interesting movie, but I am not holding my breath. At a time, it appeared that their management went totally nuts. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From imp at bsdimp.com Mon Jul 29 15:04:36 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 15:04:36 -0500 Subject: Searching digital copy of KD11-K (PDP-11/60) Processor Technical Manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 29, 2019, 12:46 PM Henk Gooijen via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi Guys, > > I am trying to get my PDP-11/60 up and running, > and I very much like to read the Processor Technical Manual. > It?s ?name? is EK-KD11K-TM and I am looking for a PDF of it. > > I do have this manual on a microfiche, but reading a manual > from the fiche reader screen is not much fun. Maybe I need > to find a municipal service that allows you to copy fiche images > one by one on A4 paper. The city of Venlo had that in the 1990ies, > and I used it to copy the cache manual of the 11/34 from fiche > to paper back then. > Maybe they can copy it to a PDF these days... Warner > From jsw at ieee.org Mon Jul 29 17:48:25 2019 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 17:48:25 -0500 Subject: OT: Reflowing GPUs and the fruit company (was Re: Resurrecting integrated circuits by cooking them.) In-Reply-To: References: <1ac85d301d13cbfe0a24cfd20f13a47d479b4f1a.camel@gmail.com> <0e9b9ebd4ead579c831b121f14d2feda@rittwage.com> <39ff611c-18c3-5a79-6b01-b61b491ba4d3@ieee.org> Message-ID: <1e9970b9-8d62-76a3-4dfd-46a32c337c99@ieee.org> On 7/28/19 8:33 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > On 7/28/2019 4:24 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> On 7/28/19 1:02 PM, Jerry Weiss via cctalk wrote: >>> This method is not limited to "vintage" components. >>> >>> My MacBook Pro 2011 fails dues to its (famous) problem with the discrete >>> AMD GPU connections.?? A reflow restores the laptop, but inevitably I >>> have repeat the process every few months. Depending on who you believe, >>> the fault is with the A) poor thermal design, b) BGA solder used or C) >>> bumps on the AMD GPU itself.? The reflow is easy enough to do, but >>> disconnecting the very fragile cables to remove the motherboard is not >>> for everyone. Using an inexpensive infrared thermometer improves the the >>> process. >> >> And of course, the solder is Pb-free... >> >> >> --Chuck >> >> > Exactly. And machines of that era had a lot of problems (I have > reflowed two early PS/3's a total of three times, and a MacBook) as > manufacturers climbed the learning curve. The Microsoft XBox 360 "Red > Ring of Death" was another instance. I sometimes wonder if I? leave the MBP in alone/unused for a year, whether it would heal itself by growing some "tin whiskers" From brain at jbrain.com Mon Jul 29 20:34:27 2019 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 20:34:27 -0500 Subject: Ill NLS MS-230 Message-ID: I have an ill NLS MS-230 Miniscope.? Is there anyone on list that might be interested in getting it running for me?? I'm willing pay for the privilege.? I'd like to see the unit working, but I have no experience with analog scopes, and I'd rather just entrust it to someone who can see it to success.? I did replace the batteries and let it charge for quite a while.? The red LED lights up on the front when on, but no sign of a trace, even when fed a known good 1kHz wave.? The CRT does not appear to be on. Anyone a fan of these units and might be interested in taking a look? Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From allisonportable at gmail.com Mon Jul 29 21:24:01 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 22:24:01 -0400 Subject: Ill NLS MS-230 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <77cb4f64-38e6-00be-d47c-1d7665f3e62f@gmail.com> On 7/29/19 9:34 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > I have an ill NLS MS-230 Miniscope.? Is there anyone on list that might > be interested in getting it running for me?? I'm willing pay for the > privilege.? I'd like to see the unit working, but I have no experience > with analog scopes, and I'd rather just entrust it to someone who can > see it to success.? I did replace the batteries and let it charge for > quite a while.? The red LED lights up on the front when on, but no sign > of a trace, even when fed a known good 1kHz wave.? The CRT does not > appear to be on. > > Anyone a fan of these units and might be interested in taking a look? > > Jim > Jim, I have a MS15 miniscope that has been my backup since '77. Good tool and I got that one in "not working" condition. I've worked on a few MS-215s over the years. Right now I'm up to my eyes with stuff to do but but if no one answers you, maybe in the late fall (after October). If you don't have the manual its on BAMA and a few other sites. Since you replaced the batteries did you check the fuse? Also the 4066s sometimes get cranky and/or the sockets. The tough fail would be the CRT. Check the heater pins with a multimeter to see if its open (unplug it as there is a transformer winding across it). Mine needed one when I got it but they were available then (1977) from NLS. Side effect of the hammer mechanic owner. Now it would be a hunt though old tube brokers. Allison From brain at jbrain.com Mon Jul 29 21:30:39 2019 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 21:30:39 -0500 Subject: Ill NLS MS-230 In-Reply-To: <77cb4f64-38e6-00be-d47c-1d7665f3e62f@gmail.com> References: <77cb4f64-38e6-00be-d47c-1d7665f3e62f@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6f1e26e7-e95d-0fcd-3b1e-07c417b0dc8e@jbrain.com> On 7/29/2019 9:24 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: > > Since you replaced the batteries did you check the fuse? Yep, good. > Also the 4066s Hmm, all mine are soldered in.? Do you suggest I desolder and check? > sometimes get cranky and/or the sockets. Only one '00 has a socket. > > The tough fail would be the CRT. Check the heater pins with a multimeter > to see if its open (unplug it as there is a transformer winding across > it). I'll check. > Mine needed one when I got it but they were available then (1977) > from NLS. Side effect of the hammer mechanic owner. Now it would be a > hunt though old tube brokers. Yep, I know that'd be the main issue, but I am hopeful it's something less problematic. > > Allison -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Mon Jul 29 22:50:46 2019 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2019 03:50:46 +0000 Subject: Your Heatkkit EC-1 analog computer Message-ID: Hi Jeff, I have hundreds of crystals here for you, and built a crystal tester (Jim Williams app note) https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/application-notes/an12fa.pdf AN12 - Circuit Techniques for Clock Sources Application Note 12 AN12-3 an12fa Figures 4a and 4b use another comparator based approach. In Figure 4a, the LT1016 comparator is set up with DC www.analog.com Brian and I are keen on making a new analog computer, possibly a kit. All new things, like the Analog Devices multipliers, better op amps etc, and possibly a USB, MIDI interface. Let us know how you come along on your bringup of the EC-1. The Heath manuals are the best in analog computing, on actual hardware. Randy From allisonportable at gmail.com Tue Jul 30 08:22:59 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2019 09:22:59 -0400 Subject: Ill NLS MS-230 In-Reply-To: <6f1e26e7-e95d-0fcd-3b1e-07c417b0dc8e@jbrain.com> References: <77cb4f64-38e6-00be-d47c-1d7665f3e62f@gmail.com> <6f1e26e7-e95d-0fcd-3b1e-07c417b0dc8e@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On 7/29/19 10:30 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > On 7/29/2019 9:24 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: >> >> Since you replaced the batteries did you check the fuse? > Yep, good. THe batteries are charged? (about 6.6V or more full charge) >> Also the 4066s > Hmm, all mine are soldered in.? Do you suggest I desolder and check? >> sometimes get cranky and/or the sockets. > Only one '00 has a socket. Check only socketed devices. Do not desolder unless you have good reason to believe the part is bad. Hint check for 5-6V on the power pins of the ICs. IF you have the manual, check for all the voltages. >> >> The tough fail would be the CRT. Check the heater pins with a multimeter >> to see if its open (unplug it as there is a transformer winding across >> it). > I'll check. >> Mine needed one when I got it but they were available then (1977) >> from NLS. Side effect of the hammer mechanic owner.? Now it would be a >> hunt though old tube brokers. > Yep, I know that'd be the main issue, but I am hopeful it's something > less problematic. The only problem with the CRT is finding a replacement. THey may be more common than thought. Haven't checked in decades. Allison From bhilpert at shaw.ca Tue Jul 30 13:58:27 2019 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2019 11:58:27 -0700 Subject: Ill NLS MS-230 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8AC8CB00-D513-4A7E-85F0-D1D3A4791081@shaw.ca> On 2019-Jul-29, at 6:34 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > I have an ill NLS MS-230 Miniscope. Is there anyone on list that might be interested in getting it running for me? I'm willing pay for the privilege. I'd like to see the unit working, but I have no experience with analog scopes, and I'd rather just entrust it to someone who can see it to success. I did replace the batteries and let it charge for quite a while. The red LED lights up on the front when on, but no sign of a trace, even when fed a known good 1kHz wave. The CRT does not appear to be on. > > Anyone a fan of these units and might be interested in taking a look? It's tempting but I'm across the border and some shipping distance away. Looking at the schematic (readily available online), it's fairly straightforward. If you're willing to spend a little time on it, you could do the basics and check for the power supply voltages as listed on the schematic. The power supply is essentially 3 stages: 1) line -> charging circuit for the batteries, 2) batt -> +5 regulator, 3) +5 -> simple switching supply for +/-7V, +80V, +100V, -720V, 0.5V heater, 12V for U11. With nothing on the CRT (esp with the intensity turned full up), suspicion may fall around the little switching supply. A key point to note with 'scopes like this is the cathode/heater runs at high negative voltage relative to GND, rather than the TV/monitor convention of the anode running at high positive voltage. This is done so the amplifiers to drive the electrostatic deflection plates can be be operated near GND level rather than having to raise them way above GND. So according to the schematic the heater (acting as cathode; either pin) should measure -720V relative to GND and there should be 0.6V across the two heater pins. U11 should have 12V across pins 14 & 7, but like the heater, it to is floating at -720V below GND. From allisonportable at gmail.com Tue Jul 30 15:17:59 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2019 16:17:59 -0400 Subject: Ill NLS MS-230 In-Reply-To: <8AC8CB00-D513-4A7E-85F0-D1D3A4791081@shaw.ca> References: <8AC8CB00-D513-4A7E-85F0-D1D3A4791081@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <62428c9a-92de-9000-e9a3-25d6f58afdf1@gmail.com> On 7/30/19 2:58 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > On 2019-Jul-29, at 6:34 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: >> I have an ill NLS MS-230 Miniscope. Is there anyone on list that might be interested in getting it running for me? I'm willing pay for the privilege. I'd like to see the unit working, but I have no experience with analog scopes, and I'd rather just entrust it to someone who can see it to success. I did replace the batteries and let it charge for quite a while. The red LED lights up on the front when on, but no sign of a trace, even when fed a known good 1kHz wave. The CRT does not appear to be on. >> >> Anyone a fan of these units and might be interested in taking a look? > > > It's tempting but I'm across the border and some shipping distance away. > > Looking at the schematic (readily available online), it's fairly straightforward. > If you're willing to spend a little time on it, you could do the basics and check > for the power supply voltages as listed on the schematic. > > The power supply is essentially 3 stages: > 1) line -> charging circuit for the batteries, > 2) batt -> +5 regulator, > 3) +5 -> simple switching supply for +/-7V, +80V, +100V, -720V, 0.5V heater, 12V for U11. > > With nothing on the CRT (esp with the intensity turned full up), suspicion may fall around the little switching supply. > > A key point to note with 'scopes like this is the cathode/heater runs at high negative voltage relative to GND, rather than the TV/monitor convention of the anode running at high positive voltage. This is done so the amplifiers to drive the electrostatic deflection plates can be be operated near GND level rather than having to raise them way above GND. > > So according to the schematic the heater (acting as cathode; either pin) should measure -720V relative to GND and there should be 0.6V across the two heater pins. > U11 should have 12V across pins 14 & 7, but like the heater, it to is floating at -720V below GND. > Read the manual as it has troubleshooting information and test points. If you follow that it will bring you to the fault very quickly I've not seen the switching converter fail but there are many parts of the regulators that can. Hint do yourself a favor and expand and print the schematic as at least B if not D size. it will be easier to follow. Allison From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Jul 31 00:53:18 2019 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 00:53:18 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest 14 Overflow Hotel Block Open Message-ID: Hello vintage fans! This is exactly the kind of problem a growing show wants to have, but it's a problem nonetheless. The Clarion Inn hotel attached to our show venue is FULL for Saturday night 9/14. There may be a few rooms left for Friday 9/13, but that doesn't do you a whole lot of good if you're staying the weekend. We have arranged a small room block at the Comfort Suites in Oak Brook Terrace, a short drive away from our hotel (sadly there was nothing nearby that was walkable). Room rates are the same ($109/night) and we have King and Double rooms reserved from Thursday through Sunday nights. More information and a booking link can be found here: http://vcfmw.org/hotel.html We recommend checking with the host hotel (Clarion Inn, info at the link) first in case a cancellation freed up a room before booking with Comfort Suites. And remember - the deadline to book a room is August 24th. They're not going to let us slide! Looking forward to seeing everyone there in September! -jt From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 31 01:43:08 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2019 23:43:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF West? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is there a reason why there has been no mention of VCF West? (other than Apple oneS) Isn't it scheduled for this coming weekend? I was planning to take a carload of stuff down for consignment, but my health has been too bad to even load the car. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jul 31 13:02:49 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 11:02:49 -0700 Subject: VCF West? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <28a4dfb7-8db7-e9a9-ecdb-15cadc0e5bb7@bitsavers.org> On 7/30/19 11:43 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Is there a reason why there has been no mention of VCF West? > Isn't it scheduled for this coming weekend? I has been embarassingly underpromoted. They couldn't even get the promo right on the http://www.vcfed.org banner for months and I see it's already been dropped there to promote VCF MW From ian.finder at gmail.com Wed Jul 31 13:21:58 2019 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 11:21:58 -0700 Subject: VCF West? In-Reply-To: <28a4dfb7-8db7-e9a9-ecdb-15cadc0e5bb7@bitsavers.org> References: <28a4dfb7-8db7-e9a9-ecdb-15cadc0e5bb7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: The only mention I've heard of the event is that the main attraction is 10 of the exact same boring, single-board, extremely simple, but incredibly expensive computer. Perhaps an overrated collectible, rather than an interesting technological showcase- my interests focus more toward the latter. That said, in spite of the main 'attraction,' I'm excited to see many of you and will be there this weekend. I hope the turnout is better than we expect... On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 11:02 AM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 7/30/19 11:43 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Is there a reason why there has been no mention of VCF West? > > Isn't it scheduled for this coming weekend? > > I has been embarassingly underpromoted. > They couldn't even get the promo right on the http://www.vcfed.org banner > for months > and I see it's already been dropped there to promote VCF MW > > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 31 13:27:38 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 11:27:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF West? In-Reply-To: <28a4dfb7-8db7-e9a9-ecdb-15cadc0e5bb7@bitsavers.org> References: <28a4dfb7-8db7-e9a9-ecdb-15cadc0e5bb7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Jul 2019, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I has been embarassingly underpromoted. Is it so great that it promotes itself, even with their light hidden under a bushel? (well, I think so) I realize that this group is pretty harsh in response to any OVER-promotion, but nobody would make THAT accusation. It has always been a great show, and the producers are to be heartily commended. But, it wouldn't hurt to send a reminder or two! Spread the word. I'm going to try hard to go. Even if I won't have stuff packed up to dump^H^H^H^H pass on to the other attendees. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 31 13:42:40 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 11:42:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF West? In-Reply-To: References: <28a4dfb7-8db7-e9a9-ecdb-15cadc0e5bb7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Jul 2019, Ian Finder via cctalk wrote: > The only mention I've heard of the event is that the main attraction is 10 > of the exact same boring, single-board, extremely simple, but incredibly > expensive computer. Perhaps an overrated collectible, rather than an > interesting technological showcase- my interests focus more toward the > latter. I find it interesting. It was not incredibly expensive at $666.66 But, crazy collectors can really make a mess of prices. There will also be Apollo Guidance Computer And Bill Herd speaking. The tiny exhibits are fascinating. Last year, I was over in consignment, and didn't get to see much of them, other than to get Tim Paterson's autograph for Richard. > I hope the turnout is better than we expect... Let's hope so! I'd like to see it work out so well that it becomes worthwhile to hold it twice a year. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Jul 31 13:52:51 2019 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 14:52:51 -0400 Subject: VCF West? In-Reply-To: <28a4dfb7-8db7-e9a9-ecdb-15cadc0e5bb7@bitsavers.org> References: <28a4dfb7-8db7-e9a9-ecdb-15cadc0e5bb7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 2:02 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 7/30/19 11:43 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Is there a reason why there has been no mention of VCF West? > > Isn't it scheduled for this coming weekend? > > I has been embarassingly underpromoted. > They couldn't even get the promo right on the http://www.vcfed.org banner > for months > and I see it's already been dropped there to promote VCF MW > > > I haven't heard much either, maybe it's all on Facebook and such. The old mailing lists are being ignored? b Bill From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Wed Jul 31 17:13:27 2019 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 15:13:27 -0700 Subject: VCF West? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jul 30, 2019, at 11:43 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Is there a reason why there has been no mention of VCF West? Some of us have been busy trying to prep for it. :) -- Chris From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jul 31 18:35:11 2019 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 16:35:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF West? In-Reply-To: from Ian Finder via cctalk at "Jul 31, 19 11:21:58 am" Message-ID: <201907312335.x6VNZBZj11206730@floodgap.com> > The only mention I've heard of the event is that the main attraction is 10 > of the exact same boring, single-board, extremely simple, but incredibly > expensive computer. Perhaps an overrated collectible, rather than an > interesting technological showcase- my interests focus more toward the > latter. > > That said, in spite of the main 'attraction,' I'm excited to see many of > you and will be there this weekend. Come by and check out my RISC tops! I spent all week configuring them for the show ... -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- FORTUNE: Expect bright evenings, especially from the cop car lights. ------- From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jul 31 18:36:10 2019 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 16:36:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF West? In-Reply-To: <28a4dfb7-8db7-e9a9-ecdb-15cadc0e5bb7@bitsavers.org> from Al Kossow via cctalk at "Jul 31, 19 11:02:49 am" Message-ID: <201907312336.x6VNaAbg14549216@floodgap.com> > > Is there a reason why there has been no mention of VCF West? > > Isn't it scheduled for this coming weekend? > > I has been embarassingly underpromoted. Well, I'll be there. I put a lot of midnight oil into getting the hosts configured and they'll be on display. Couldn't get everything done for various technical reasons though. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Understanding is a three-edged sword. -- Babylon 5, "Deathwalker" ---------- From doc at vaxen.net Mon Jul 29 14:00:55 2019 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 14:00:55 -0500 Subject: IBM PC-RT 6150 looking for help In-Reply-To: <76a79558-c1b7-9fbe-be90-c1255ea553da@turczak.de> References: <76a79558-c1b7-9fbe-be90-c1255ea553da@turczak.de> Message-ID: <23f331ab-8738-67d1-58a3-ad072eb4776f@vaxen.net> On 6/15/19 2:19 AM, Peter Turczak via cctalk wrote: > In preparation of moving, I dug out a IBM 6150 PC-RT from my basement. > This was my first proper computer as a child, which was donated to me by > a local company that upgraded their CAD system. So it would be > interesting to bring it back to life. > > The machine is equipped with an 320 MB ESDI, 10 MBit Baseband Ethernet > adapter and an IBM Megapel graphics adapter. > > This baby was quite a sight in 1993 when I got it, with its elegant > console font designed by Knuth. > > Now I'm trying to revive the old machine, but there are some hassles: > > The hard disk seems to be stuck or the drives electronics are broken, it > does not spin up. As these drives are quite rare, I'm looking for the > SCSI card (Model 6lX700l). Is it right, the PC-RT can boot off SCSI? > > While I made images of the install floppies, it seems the AIX base > system 2.0.0. disk #1 is missing. The AIXWindows floppies where not > imaged and seem to be unreadable. Otherwise all VRM/extendes svcs, etc > floppy images are at hand. I had a PC-RT awhile back that came with dead hard disks. I got AIX going with an ISA IDE adapter and a 1GB IDE drive. This was a long time ago and the details are hazy, but maybe this is enough to get you started: I don't remember the nature of the limitations on both IDE adapter and disk. I do remember that I needed an adapter that allowed disabling the floppy interface (or didn't have one), that later IDE chipsets did not work, and that there was one IDE instruction that the disk drive needed to *not* support. The <2GB Seagate Medalist series were known to ignore that instruction and my Medalist 1GB worked. Doc From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Jul 29 23:01:12 2019 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2019 00:01:12 -0400 Subject: Final reminder, VCF West Message-ID: <2eb4dca4-6f3c-6f3a-0762-4805ad2ecd19@snarc.net> VCF West is this weekend at the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California. All of the details (and online ticket sales) are at http://vcfed.org/vcfwest. -Evan K. From allisonportable at gmail.com Tue Jul 30 08:23:44 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2019 09:23:44 -0400 Subject: Ill NLS MS-230 ---manual! In-Reply-To: <6f1e26e7-e95d-0fcd-3b1e-07c417b0dc8e@jbrain.com> References: <77cb4f64-38e6-00be-d47c-1d7665f3e62f@gmail.com> <6f1e26e7-e95d-0fcd-3b1e-07c417b0dc8e@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <12b52b7f-d8e7-1e32-085f-a72ba62661fc@gmail.com> On 7/29/19 10:30 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > On 7/29/2019 9:24 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: >> >> Since you replaced the batteries did you check the fuse? > Yep, good. >> Also the 4066s > Hmm, all mine are soldered in.? Do you suggest I desolder and check? >> sometimes get cranky and/or the sockets. > Only one '00 has a socket. >> >> The tough fail would be the CRT. Check the heater pins with a multimeter >> to see if its open (unplug it as there is a transformer winding across >> it). > I'll check. >> Mine needed one when I got it but they were available then (1977) >> from NLS. Side effect of the hammer mechanic owner.? Now it would be a >> hunt though old tube brokers. > Yep, I know that'd be the main issue, but I am hopeful it's something > less problematic. >> >> Allison > > From cctalk at snarc.net Wed Jul 31 01:52:39 2019 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 02:52:39 -0400 Subject: VCF West? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8f5ec51d-8d9f-b885-125a-b883bc049a1a@snarc.net> > Is there a reason why there has been no mention of VCF West? > (other than Apple oneS) > > Isn't it scheduled for this coming weekend? > > I was planning to take a carload of stuff down for consignment, but my > health has been too bad to even load the car. Because we're very busy planning a kick-ass event, and every time we post here on cctalk it falls into an endless stream off threadjacking? :) VCF West 2019 is indeed this weekend, August 3-4, as always at the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California. This year's special attractions/speakers include: - The aforementioned Apple 1 gathering. Before we said there will be "at least" 10 original systems. Now it's looking like 12-15. Woz can't make it this year, but Dan Kottke and other very early employees will be there, along with Corey Cohen who is the go-to evaluator/restorer for the major auction houses. - A presentation about the Apollo Guidance Computer. Frank O'Brien (who literally wrote the book about AGC architecture/operation) and CHM restorer Carl Claunch will both be there. - Everyone's favorite Commodore engineer, Bil Herd, will give a lecture about the affects of age and heat on computer components. - What else? Enigma machines, more CHM restoration projects, three dozen amazing exhibits, our legendary VCF consignment sale, CHM museum tours, great food, and incredible company/friends! - Super-big-thanks to our sponsor Hackaday, and also to CHM for hosting us, ACM for advertising our events on social media, and "viewers like you" (so to speak) without which Vintage Computer Federation would have no purpose. :) - Tickets are available online and at the door. - See all of the details at http://www.vcfed.org/vcfwest From coreyvcf at gmail.com Wed Jul 31 05:56:05 2019 From: coreyvcf at gmail.com (corey cohen) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 06:56:05 -0400 Subject: VCF West? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There have been lots of mentions of VCF West on social media and I think even in the press. I?m heading out to the west coast right now for the show and it?s going to be one for the record books. There are more exhibitors (35+) then ever before and lots of cool talks. Cheers, Corey corey cohen u??o? ???o? Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 31, 2019, at 2:43 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Is there a reason why there has been no mention of VCF West? > (other than Apple oneS) > > Isn't it scheduled for this coming weekend? > > > I was planning to take a carload of stuff down for consignment, but my health has been too bad to even load the car. From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Wed Jul 31 16:25:01 2019 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 21:25:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: looking for a 7-track reel tape controller References: <1444403480.4518506.1564608301720.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1444403480.4518506.1564608301720@mail.yahoo.com> Hello list, I have been looking for years for a q-bus or unibus-based disk controller that is able to handle 7-track drives (NRZI encoding). So far, I only located one controller type which handles that: Dilog DQ120 or DU120 and I never came across any. Any other suggestions regarding controller types?Contact me off-list if you are happy to part any 7-track tape controller with me. That would be very much appreciated :) Best regards,Pierre -----------------------------------------------------------------------------http://www.digitalheritage.de From brian.reilly.19 at gmail.com Wed Jul 31 18:43:27 2019 From: brian.reilly.19 at gmail.com (Brian Reilly) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 16:43:27 -0700 Subject: Your Heatkkit EC-1 analog computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Randy, I found the ComDyna GP-6 manual online, a classic unit back in its day, still useful as a design & features reference, I think. BR https://usermanual.wiki/Document/ComdynaGP6AnalogComputer.2283550129/html On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 8:50 PM Randy Dawson wrote: > Hi Jeff, > I have hundreds of crystals here for you, and built a crystal tester (Jim > Williams app note) > > https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/application-notes/an12fa.pdf > AN12 - Circuit Techniques for Clock Sources > > Application Note 12 AN12-3 an12fa Figures 4a and 4b use another comparator > based approach. In Figure 4a, the LT1016 comparator is set up with DC > www.analog.com > Brian and I are keen on making a new analog computer, possibly a kit. All > new things, like the Analog Devices multipliers, better op amps etc, and > possibly a USB, MIDI interface. > Let us know how you come along on your bringup of the EC-1. > The Heath manuals are the best in analog computing, on actual hardware. > Randy > From athornton at gmail.com Wed Jul 31 20:33:04 2019 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 18:33:04 -0700 Subject: A few VT-320 and keyboard questions Message-ID: <92929454-E81B-421D-AA61-80240AD5CC34@gmail.com> I just picked up a VT-320, with no keyboard. I have some questions: 1) the price on DEC keyboards, at least on eBay, is insane. Does anyone have a VT-320 keyboard they?d be willing to let go cheaply? 2) ?or, failing that, I found a posting of someone who?d done an Arduino-based key code mapper that let him use a PS/2 (or maybe it was an AT) keyboard as a replacement. The link to the actual project was dead, though. Anyone have schematic and source code for such a project? 3) If anyone's got a DB-9-or-25-to-MMP cable you?d sell cheap, I?d be happy to buy it instead or making my own. OK, that?s not really a question. There?s a blank insert where the 25-pin connector usually is; was that a ?feature? of the B2 model? (that?s a question but not much of one) ?aaaaand while I?m here, another question. 4) I have a number of Apple IIs and one III that have sustained some keyboard damage. Where can I get/what is the name of the little plus-shaped keyboard stems for those? If I had a couple dozen that would be most helpful. Adam From sales at elecplus.com Wed Jul 31 20:49:55 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 20:49:55 -0500 Subject: A few VT-320 and keyboard questions In-Reply-To: <92929454-E81B-421D-AA61-80240AD5CC34@gmail.com> References: <92929454-E81B-421D-AA61-80240AD5CC34@gmail.com> Message-ID: <044f01d5480b$6b8cfe20$42a6fa60$@com> The VT320 can use an LK401 or an LK201. I have a defective LK201 you can have for shipping, if you want to repair it. The M0110 keyboards usually used Alps SKCC tall cream switches. https://deskthority.net/wiki/Apple_M0110 I have one complete one https://www.elecshopper.com/apple-m0110a-keyboard-mitsumi-japan.html and an M0110 missing a couple of caps that I will sell for half that. Cindy -----Original Message----- From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adam Thornton via cctech Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2019 8:33 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: A few VT-320 and keyboard questions I just picked up a VT-320, with no keyboard. I have some questions: 1) the price on DEC keyboards, at least on eBay, is insane. Does anyone have a VT-320 keyboard they?d be willing to let go cheaply? 2) ?or, failing that, I found a posting of someone who?d done an Arduino-based key code mapper that let him use a PS/2 (or maybe it was an AT) keyboard as a replacement. The link to the actual project was dead, though. Anyone have schematic and source code for such a project? 3) If anyone's got a DB-9-or-25-to-MMP cable you?d sell cheap, I?d be happy to buy it instead or making my own. OK, that?s not really a question. There?s a blank insert where the 25-pin connector usually is; was that a ?feature? of the B2 model? (that?s a question but not much of one) ?aaaaand while I?m here, another question. 4) I have a number of Apple IIs and one III that have sustained some keyboard damage. Where can I get/what is the name of the little plus-shaped keyboard stems for those? If I had a couple dozen that would be most helpful. Adam= --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From imp at bsdimp.com Wed Jul 31 20:58:49 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 20:58:49 -0500 Subject: A few VT-320 and keyboard questions In-Reply-To: <92929454-E81B-421D-AA61-80240AD5CC34@gmail.com> References: <92929454-E81B-421D-AA61-80240AD5CC34@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 8:33 PM Adam Thornton via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I just picked up a VT-320, with no keyboard. > > I have some questions: > > 1) the price on DEC keyboards, at least on eBay, is insane. Does anyone > have a VT-320 keyboard they?d be willing to let go cheaply? > Isn't it just a lk401? I bought one recently for $55. 2) ?or, failing that, I found a posting of someone who?d done an > Arduino-based key code mapper that let him use a PS/2 (or maybe it was an > AT) keyboard as a replacement. The link to the actual project was dead, > though. Anyone have schematic and source code for such a project? > Unless you are doing this in bulk, I suspect it would be more expensive... there have been lk201 hack a day stuff, though. Iirc, all the software is available, but when I went looking, the board layout stuff wasn't. 3) If anyone's got a DB-9-or-25-to-MMP cable you?d sell cheap, I?d be happy > to buy it instead or making my own. OK, that?s not really a question. > There?s a blank insert where the 25-pin connector usually is; was that a > ?feature? of the B2 model? (that?s a question but not much of one) > MMJ is a pita. But getting a normal RJ45 and removing the clip will let you plug it in and get it working. Warner ?aaaaand while I?m here, another question. > > 4) I have a number of Apple IIs and one III that have sustained some > keyboard damage. Where can I get/what is the name of the little > plus-shaped keyboard stems for those? If I had a couple dozen that would > be most helpful. > > Adam From systems.glitch at gmail.com Wed Jul 31 21:25:34 2019 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 22:25:34 -0400 Subject: A few VT-320 and keyboard questions In-Reply-To: <92929454-E81B-421D-AA61-80240AD5CC34@gmail.com> References: <92929454-E81B-421D-AA61-80240AD5CC34@gmail.com> Message-ID: You can use a LK201 or the seemingly less desirable LK401 with the VT320. There are a number of LK201s on eBay right now for reasonable prices. The cheap ones are always going to be untested/dirty/possibly missing a key or two. The thing to do for MMJ converters is to get a MMJ cable and an adapter. The 9-pin I use is a H8571-J, I don't have many of those so I can't provide one. The 25-pin I use is H8575-A, I have a few of those so if you wanted to buy a MMJ cable and a MMJ -> DB25F, I could sell you that combination for a reasonable price. I have a huge spool of DEC OfficeConnect branded Spectra-Strip flat cable, a ton of MMJ crimps, and the necessary crimp die to make up cables of whatever length you'd like. Contact me off-list if you're interested. Thanks, Jonathan On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 9:33 PM Adam Thornton via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I just picked up a VT-320, with no keyboard. > > I have some questions: > > 1) the price on DEC keyboards, at least on eBay, is insane. Does anyone > have a VT-320 keyboard they?d be willing to let go cheaply? > > 2) ?or, failing that, I found a posting of someone who?d done an > Arduino-based key code mapper that let him use a PS/2 (or maybe it was an > AT) keyboard as a replacement. The link to the actual project was dead, > though. Anyone have schematic and source code for such a project? > > 3) If anyone's got a DB-9-or-25-to-MMP cable you?d sell cheap, I?d be > happy to buy it instead or making my own. OK, that?s not really a > question. There?s a blank insert where the 25-pin connector usually is; > was that a ?feature? of the B2 model? (that?s a question but not much of > one) > > ?aaaaand while I?m here, another question. > > 4) I have a number of Apple IIs and one III that have sustained some > keyboard damage. Where can I get/what is the name of the little > plus-shaped keyboard stems for those? If I had a couple dozen that would > be most helpful. > > Adam From sales at elecplus.com Wed Jul 31 22:23:48 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 22:23:48 -0500 Subject: A few VT-320 and keyboard questions In-Reply-To: <92929454-E81B-421D-AA61-80240AD5CC34@gmail.com> References: <92929454-E81B-421D-AA61-80240AD5CC34@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000101d54818$898f69f0$9cae3dd0$@com> The VT320 can use an LK401 or an LK201. I have a defective LK201 you can have for shipping, if you want to repair it. The M0110 keyboards usually used Alps SKCC tall cream switches. https://deskthority.net/wiki/Apple_M0110 I have one complete one https://www.elecshopper.com/apple-m0110a-keyboard-mitsumi-japan.html and an M0110 missing a couple of caps that I will sell for half that. Cindy -----Original Message----- From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adam Thornton via cctech Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2019 8:33 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: A few VT-320 and keyboard questions I just picked up a VT-320, with no keyboard. I have some questions: 1) the price on DEC keyboards, at least on eBay, is insane. Does anyone have a VT-320 keyboard they?d be willing to let go cheaply? 2) ?or, failing that, I found a posting of someone who?d done an Arduino-based key code mapper that let him use a PS/2 (or maybe it was an AT) keyboard as a replacement. The link to the actual project was dead, though. Anyone have schematic and source code for such a project? 3) If anyone's got a DB-9-or-25-to-MMP cable you?d sell cheap, I?d be happy to buy it instead or making my own. OK, that?s not really a question. There?s a blank insert where the 25-pin connector usually is; was that a ?feature? of the B2 model? (that?s a question but not much of one) ?aaaaand while I?m here, another question. 4) I have a number of Apple IIs and one III that have sustained some keyboard damage. Where can I get/what is the name of the little plus-shaped keyboard stems for those? If I had a couple dozen that would be most helpful. Adam= --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From athornton at gmail.com Wed Jul 31 22:31:15 2019 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 20:31:15 -0700 Subject: A few VT-320 and keyboard questions In-Reply-To: References: <92929454-E81B-421D-AA61-80240AD5CC34@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6E467CEB-855D-4DC0-A817-038D458CE104@gmail.com> > On Jul 31, 2019, at 7:25 PM, systems_glitch wrote: > > You can use a LK201 or the seemingly less desirable LK401 with the VT320. There are a number of LK201s on eBay right now for reasonable prices. The cheap ones are always going to be untested/dirty/possibly missing a key or two. > I ended up springing for one that was a bit more than $50 shipped. The lot of 9 for $150 is very tempting, especially if I could talk them out of some of the shipping since I am also in Tucson and wouldn?t mind picking ?em up, but that?s way more keyboards than I am ever going to have DEC terminals, I think. Adam From useddec at gmail.com Wed Jul 31 23:15:37 2019 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 23:15:37 -0500 Subject: A few VT-320 and keyboard questions In-Reply-To: <6E467CEB-855D-4DC0-A817-038D458CE104@gmail.com> References: <92929454-E81B-421D-AA61-80240AD5CC34@gmail.com> <6E467CEB-855D-4DC0-A817-038D458CE104@gmail.com> Message-ID: the cables are known to bad fairly often. Get a known good cable to test them.. On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 10:31 PM Adam Thornton via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Jul 31, 2019, at 7:25 PM, systems_glitch > wrote: > > > > You can use a LK201 or the seemingly less desirable LK401 with the > VT320. There are a number of LK201s on eBay right now for reasonable > prices. The cheap ones are always going to be untested/dirty/possibly > missing a key or two. > > > > > I ended up springing for one that was a bit more than $50 shipped. The > lot of 9 for $150 is very tempting, especially if I could talk them out of > some of the shipping since I am also in Tucson and wouldn?t mind picking > ?em up, but that?s way more keyboards than I am ever going to have DEC > terminals, I think. > > Adam From cctalk at snarc.net Wed Jul 31 23:00:28 2019 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2019 00:00:28 -0400 Subject: VCF West? In-Reply-To: References: <28a4dfb7-8db7-e9a9-ecdb-15cadc0e5bb7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <73334314-a225-f7cd-a1e8-04bc0d553a56@snarc.net> >> I see it's already been dropped there to promote VCF MW I don't know what you mean. "Dropped there to promote Midwest" ... that is false. VCF West is atop our website header, our blog page, and the VC Forum header. It's true that we are focusing more on social media. There are a couple of dozen Facebook groups for various aspects of retrocomputing that * each * have multiple thousands of users. I think it's safe to say that people here on Cctalk already know about VCF events. Usually, when I do post about our events here, the response is either crickets or threadjacking. From echristopherson at gmail.com Mon Jul 29 12:01:03 2019 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 12:01:03 -0500 Subject: Intergraph 751 system free to good home, but act quickly Message-ID: There's an Intergraph 751 system (VAX architecture apparently, including hard disk, printer, and two rebadged DEC racks full of who knows what) free to a good home in southern Wisconsin. Appears to be in not-great shape. Unfortunately, it's been on Craigslist for a while and it sounds like the owner's really fed up with it and wants it gone ASAP or a realty company will take possession of it (and who knows what they'll do with it). He originally said last Saturday, but in an email to me yesterday afternoon he said it would have to be gone by today (7/29). Also unfortunately, there have been several people besides myself emailing the owner trying to arrange a pickup, and he hasn't responded to them. I personally have no way to move or store it, so I've been trying to relay what I hear from him to the one person I thought was in the best position to take it. The owner gave me his personal email address and phone number, and told me the name of the realty company in case anyone wants to get it after it's out of his hands; but I don't think it would be cool to post those details here. So please let me know personally if you'd like those details. https://janesville.craigslist.org/sys/d/evansville-intergraph-751/6936217842.html -- Eric Christopherson