From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Aug 1 02:56:15 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2019 08:56:15 +0100 Subject: A few VT-320 and keyboard questions In-Reply-To: <6E467CEB-855D-4DC0-A817-038D458CE104@gmail.com> References: <92929454-E81B-421D-AA61-80240AD5CC34@gmail.com> <6E467CEB-855D-4DC0-A817-038D458CE104@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1aba01d5483e$9859c590$c90d50b0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech On Behalf Of Adam > Thornton via cctech > Sent: 01 August 2019 04:31 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: A few VT-320 and keyboard questions > > > > > On Jul 31, 2019, at 7:25 PM, systems_glitch > wrote: > > > > You can use a LK201 or the seemingly less desirable LK401 with the VT320. > There are a number of LK201s on eBay right now for reasonable prices. The > cheap ones are always going to be untested/dirty/possibly missing a key or > two. > > > > > I ended up springing for one that was a bit more than $50 shipped. The lot of > 9 for $150 is very tempting, especially if I could talk them out of some of the > shipping since I am also in Tucson and wouldn?t mind picking ?em up, but > that?s way more keyboards than I am ever going to have DEC terminals, I > think. > > Adam I don't know. Don't those also work with VaxStions? You could easily use three like that, plus some spares... Dave From dave at babcock-family.org Thu Aug 1 11:15:32 2019 From: dave at babcock-family.org (Dave Babcock) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2019 09:15:32 -0700 Subject: Announcing Cadetwriter Message-ID: <83f9f347-6655-7b03-eb91-65c6f3f5d952@babcock-family.org> To all, After several more months of delays - personal and project issues - Cadetwriter is being released.? [Cadetwriter is the official name of our general-purpose, Wheelwriter-based Computer Terminal.]? The public unveiling will be at this weekend's VCF West at the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California. Attached is a flyer on the device. At the show we'll be demonstrating the Cadetwriter connected to: ??? ??? *? IBM 1620 Jr. via USB & proprietary protocol ??? ??? *? ALTAIR 8800 replica (Chris Davis) via RS-232 running OS/8 ??? ??? *? PiDP-8/I replica (Oscar Vermeulen) via USB running MITS Extended 16K BASIC (Bill Gates, Paul Allen, Monte Davidoff) ??? ??? *? Windows laptop via USB and a USB->RS-232 adapter Our plan for the show is to invite anyone with a computer having an RS-232 or USB port to try out Cadetwriter with their computer. We're hoping for a lot of takers We're finishing getting the documentation written or updated and everything uploaded to GitHub.? It should all be available next week. We appreciate your patience. Thanks, IBM 1620 Jr. Team From dave at babcock-family.org Thu Aug 1 11:15:32 2019 From: dave at babcock-family.org (Dave Babcock) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2019 09:15:32 -0700 Subject: Announcing Cadetwriter Message-ID: <83f9f347-6655-7b03-eb91-65c6f3f5d952@babcock-family.org> To all, After several more months of delays - personal and project issues - Cadetwriter is being released.? [Cadetwriter is the official name of our general-purpose, Wheelwriter-based Computer Terminal.]? The public unveiling will be at this weekend's VCF West at the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California. Attached is a flyer on the device. At the show we'll be demonstrating the Cadetwriter connected to: ??? ??? *? IBM 1620 Jr. via USB & proprietary protocol ??? ??? *? ALTAIR 8800 replica (Chris Davis) via RS-232 running OS/8 ??? ??? *? PiDP-8/I replica (Oscar Vermeulen) via USB running MITS Extended 16K BASIC (Bill Gates, Paul Allen, Monte Davidoff) ??? ??? *? Windows laptop via USB and a USB->RS-232 adapter Our plan for the show is to invite anyone with a computer having an RS-232 or USB port to try out Cadetwriter with their computer. We're hoping for a lot of takers We're finishing getting the documentation written or updated and everything uploaded to GitHub.? It should all be available next week. We appreciate your patience. Thanks, IBM 1620 Jr. Team From classiccmp at crash.com Thu Aug 1 13:04:26 2019 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2019 11:04:26 -0700 Subject: VCF West? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 07/30/2019 23:43, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Is there a reason why there has been no mention of VCF West? > (other than Apple oneS) > > Isn't it scheduled for this coming weekend? On Tuesday a colleague at $WORK reposted the Hackaday announcement, and he's far from the ccmp crowd. So word is getting around a little bit. Evan's blog post didn't include a link to buy tickets, though the full event page does. They are being handled through EventBrite: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/vintage-computer-festival-west-tickets-63097131218 Exhibit list looks nicely varied, though it would have been nice to see an exhibit and/or talk about Bill Godbout and the role he played. (Yeah yeah, I can already hear somebody saying, "DIY!") --S. From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Thu Aug 1 13:05:32 2019 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2019 11:05:32 -0700 Subject: VCF West? In-Reply-To: <8f5ec51d-8d9f-b885-125a-b883bc049a1a@snarc.net> References: <8f5ec51d-8d9f-b885-125a-b883bc049a1a@snarc.net> Message-ID: <01d501d54893$b64cb350$22e619f0$@net> > our legendary VCF consignment sale, Maybe at the other meets (e.g. MW or Pacific NW) but the last few times not so much at VCFW. Last year I bought some stuff because Fred specifically brought stuff for me. > great food Yeah..... Not quite ;) >, and incredible company/friends! This now be true! Honestly the exhibits are great, the CHM access is an awesome bonus and do what I do eat off site... Unfortunately I will be missing it this year. -Ali p.s. Is this one of those thread jacking incidence you were talking about? ;) From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 1 13:07:55 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2019 11:07:55 -0700 Subject: VCF West? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 8/1/19 11:04 AM, Steven M Jones via cctalk wrote: > Exhibit list looks nicely varied, though it would have been nice to see an exhibit and/or talk about Bill Godbout They've been too busy worrying about guards with firearms. From nf6x at nf6x.net Thu Aug 1 13:12:23 2019 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2019 11:12:23 -0700 Subject: Announcing Cadetwriter In-Reply-To: <83f9f347-6655-7b03-eb91-65c6f3f5d952@babcock-family.org> References: <83f9f347-6655-7b03-eb91-65c6f3f5d952@babcock-family.org> Message-ID: <2D43A505-0412-4E37-A656-BA032B903DEE@nf6x.net> > On Aug 1, 2019, at 9:15 AM, Dave Babcock via cctech wrote: > > Cadetwriter is being released. [Cadetwriter is the official name of our general-purpose, Wheelwriter-based Computer Terminal.] The public unveiling will be at this weekend's VCF West at the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California. Attached is a flyer on the device. I don't think that the flyer made it into the mailing list posting. From the text of your email, this sounds pretty cool. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From jpstewart at sympatico.ca Thu Aug 1 18:11:44 2019 From: jpstewart at sympatico.ca (John-Paul Stewart) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2019 19:11:44 -0400 Subject: AIX 5L/ia64 media? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2019-07-25 6:07 a.m., Plamen Mihaylov via cctalk wrote: > I know it was a short lived, but anyone has the installation cd or iso > image? It's not an installation cd, but yesterday I stumbled upon some developer stuff (mostly for device drivers) for AIX on Itanium on IBM's own FTP site: ftp://ftp.software.ibm.com/aix/itanium/ I doubt there's much there that's useful, but I didn't really look in too much detail. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 1 18:19:07 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2019 16:19:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF West? In-Reply-To: <01d501d54893$b64cb350$22e619f0$@net> References: <8f5ec51d-8d9f-b885-125a-b883bc049a1a@snarc.net> <01d501d54893$b64cb350$22e619f0$@net> Message-ID: >> our legendary VCF consignment sale, On Thu, 1 Aug 2019, Ali via cctalk wrote: > Maybe at the other meets (e.g. MW or Pacific NW) but the last few times not so much at VCFW. Last year I bought some stuff because Fred specifically brought stuff for me. I don't know about "legendary"; I'd reserve that for Sellam's early events which were more like a flea market plus exhibits. BUT, I was very pleased with how consignment was managed last year. I was surprised at how thoroughly the "FREE" table cleared. >> great food > Yeah..... Not quite ;) Well, it wasn't bad. Not great; but OK. Much like Diogenes' favorite wine :-) >> , and incredible company/friends! > This now be true! And how! > Honestly the exhibits are great, the CHM access is an awesome bonus and > do what I do eat off site... > Unfortunately I will be missing it this year. It's a maybe whether I can manage to get there this year. But, I won't be able to take a carload of stuff. > p.s. Is this one of those thread jacking incidence you were talking about? ;) Well, announcement of Apple Ones is certain to bring about arguments about the machine. I think that one is well worth $666.66 but not what people are paying for them. This "thread jacking" continuous heading off on tangents is the basis of Vannevar Bush's dislike of hierarchical organization of information, Ted Nelson's "Hypertext", and Berners-Lee's WWW. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Aug 1 14:02:33 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2019 15:02:33 -0400 Subject: looking for a 7-track reel tape controller In-Reply-To: <1444403480.4518506.1564608301720@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1444403480.4518506.1564608301720.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1444403480.4518506.1564608301720@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <84C176FD-9546-4D6E-AD15-F9DBDF2E8677@comcast.net> It may depend more on what kind of tape drive you have. The DEC TU10 controller handles both 7 and 9 track tapes. paul From dave at babcock-family.org Thu Aug 1 20:52:38 2019 From: dave at babcock-family.org (Dave Babcock) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2019 18:52:38 -0700 Subject: Announcing Cadetwriter In-Reply-To: <83f9f347-6655-7b03-eb91-65c6f3f5d952@babcock-family.org> References: <83f9f347-6655-7b03-eb91-65c6f3f5d952@babcock-family.org> Message-ID: The Cadetwriter flyer can be found at: https://www.dropbox.com/s/yhxq788j8g6j2sz/Cadetwriter%20Flyer.pdf?dl=0 One sharp-eyed person who actually read my post, Steve Tockey, noticed that I had switched the software running on the replicas. The real demos will be: ??? ??? *? ALTAIR 8800 replica (Chris Davis) via RS-232 running MITS Extended 16K BASIC (Bill Gates, Paul Allen, Monte Davidoff) ? ? ? ? *? PiDP-8/I replica (Oscar Vermeulen) via USB running OS/8 That'll teach me to do a quick posting before I get in the car for a 6-hour drive to VCF. Thanks, Dave On 8/1/2019 9:15 AM, Dave Babcock via cctech wrote: > To all, > > After several more months of delays - personal and project issues - > Cadetwriter is being released.? [Cadetwriter is the official name of > our general-purpose, Wheelwriter-based Computer Terminal.]? The public > unveiling will be at this weekend's VCF West at the Computer History > Museum in Mountain View, California. Attached is a flyer on the device. > > At the show we'll be demonstrating the Cadetwriter connected to: > ??? ??? *? IBM 1620 Jr. via USB & proprietary protocol > ??? ??? *? ALTAIR 8800 replica (Chris Davis) via RS-232 running OS/8 > ??? ??? *? PiDP-8/I replica (Oscar Vermeulen) via USB running MITS > Extended 16K BASIC (Bill Gates, Paul Allen, Monte Davidoff) > ??? ??? *? Windows laptop via USB and a USB->RS-232 adapter > > Our plan for the show is to invite anyone with a computer having an > RS-232 or USB port to try out Cadetwriter with their computer. We're > hoping for a lot of takers > > We're finishing getting the documentation written or updated and > everything uploaded to GitHub.? It should all be available next week. > > We appreciate your patience. > > Thanks, > IBM 1620 Jr. Team > > From dave at babcock-family.org Thu Aug 1 20:52:38 2019 From: dave at babcock-family.org (Dave Babcock) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2019 18:52:38 -0700 Subject: Announcing Cadetwriter In-Reply-To: <83f9f347-6655-7b03-eb91-65c6f3f5d952@babcock-family.org> References: <83f9f347-6655-7b03-eb91-65c6f3f5d952@babcock-family.org> Message-ID: The Cadetwriter flyer can be found at: https://www.dropbox.com/s/yhxq788j8g6j2sz/Cadetwriter%20Flyer.pdf?dl=0 One sharp-eyed person who actually read my post, Steve Tockey, noticed that I had switched the software running on the replicas. The real demos will be: ??? ??? *? ALTAIR 8800 replica (Chris Davis) via RS-232 running MITS Extended 16K BASIC (Bill Gates, Paul Allen, Monte Davidoff) ? ? ? ? *? PiDP-8/I replica (Oscar Vermeulen) via USB running OS/8 That'll teach me to do a quick posting before I get in the car for a 6-hour drive to VCF. Thanks, Dave On 8/1/2019 9:15 AM, Dave Babcock via cctech wrote: > To all, > > After several more months of delays - personal and project issues - > Cadetwriter is being released.? [Cadetwriter is the official name of > our general-purpose, Wheelwriter-based Computer Terminal.]? The public > unveiling will be at this weekend's VCF West at the Computer History > Museum in Mountain View, California. Attached is a flyer on the device. > > At the show we'll be demonstrating the Cadetwriter connected to: > ??? ??? *? IBM 1620 Jr. via USB & proprietary protocol > ??? ??? *? ALTAIR 8800 replica (Chris Davis) via RS-232 running OS/8 > ??? ??? *? PiDP-8/I replica (Oscar Vermeulen) via USB running MITS > Extended 16K BASIC (Bill Gates, Paul Allen, Monte Davidoff) > ??? ??? *? Windows laptop via USB and a USB->RS-232 adapter > > Our plan for the show is to invite anyone with a computer having an > RS-232 or USB port to try out Cadetwriter with their computer. We're > hoping for a lot of takers > > We're finishing getting the documentation written or updated and > everything uploaded to GitHub.? It should all be available next week. > > We appreciate your patience. > > Thanks, > IBM 1620 Jr. Team > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 2 00:58:08 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2019 23:58:08 -0600 Subject: Announcing Cadetwriter In-Reply-To: References: <83f9f347-6655-7b03-eb91-65c6f3f5d952@babcock-family.org> Message-ID: On 8/1/2019 7:52 PM, Dave Babcock via cctalk wrote: > The Cadetwriter flyer can be found at: > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/yhxq788j8g6j2sz/Cadetwriter%20Flyer.pdf?dl=0 > Does it Backspace? Ben. From dave at babcock-family.org Fri Aug 2 01:08:03 2019 From: dave at babcock-family.org (Dave Babcock) Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2019 23:08:03 -0700 Subject: Announcing Cadetwriter In-Reply-To: References: <83f9f347-6655-7b03-eb91-65c6f3f5d952@babcock-family.org> Message-ID: <88fd787d-b741-9670-cfa1-60a628f7c370@babcock-family.org> Yes. On 8/1/2019 10:58 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 8/1/2019 7:52 PM, Dave Babcock via cctalk wrote: >> The Cadetwriter flyer can be found at: >> >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/yhxq788j8g6j2sz/Cadetwriter%20Flyer.pdf?dl=0 >> > Does it Backspace? > Ben. From lproven at gmail.com Fri Aug 2 12:15:23 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2019 19:15:23 +0200 Subject: MULTIPROCESSING FOR THE IMPOVERISHED Part 1: a 6809 Uniprocessor Message-ID: 1993 article on building a multiprocessor 6809 box. http://www.bradrodriguez.com/papers/6809cpu.htm -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From technoid6502 at gmail.com Fri Aug 2 12:38:59 2019 From: technoid6502 at gmail.com (Jeffrey S. Worley) Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2019 13:38:59 -0400 Subject: 512k SRAM for Atari 800 computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm building as many as ten of a 512k Axlon compatible memory board for the Atari 800 (not xl) computer. If you'd like to have one, please message me and let me know so I can reserve one for you. I'm not sure of my cost at the moment, but it is something on the order of $30.00 per board. I'll tot things up when I get around to it, but it will probably come out to less. So for parts and shipping, you can have one. Here's a photo of the completed board: https://atariage.com/forums/topic/256464-designing-an-axlon-compatible-board/page/2/#comments https://atariage.com/forums/topic/256464-designing-an-axlon-compatible-board/page/2/#comments I've got all the parts on order but the boards, for which I'm waiting for a quote. I gather the boards are about $10.00 each but am not counting my chickens quite yet. Best, Technoid Mutant From technoid6502 at gmail.com Fri Aug 2 13:36:48 2019 From: technoid6502 at gmail.com (Jeffrey S. Worley) Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2019 14:36:48 -0400 Subject: What's a half meg on the Atari800 good for under In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good question. There are upgrades up to 4mb, but ones for the 800 most common range from 64k to 1088k. A pair of really common and several less common standards have existed for many years. This one conforms to the Axlon standard, which is among the oldest for the Atari's. It switches the banks in 32k increments. The other standard was set by Atari on the introduction of the 130xe; that switches in 16k increments. Aside from a ramdisk, what can you do with it? My primary reason for building the thing is to gain memory for the Spartados X operating system, which benefits greatly from more memory (256k is the sweet spot). SDX barely runs on 48k ram and the SIDE driver does not load. SIDE2 is a cartridge for the machine that grafts a CF slot on and allows it to act as a hard disk under SDX. This is of course very useful. Here's a link to the Spartados X cooperative: http://sdx.atari8.info/index.php The Side2 cart, in addition to hosting Spartados X and the CF hard disk controller and firmware, also hosts a real-time clock, and can carry several other programs which must be hosted by hardware because of thier bank-selecting rom design, such as Basic XL, Basic XE... Spartados is a 256k bank-selected cartridge itself. Released in 1988 by ICD, Spartados X is a surprisingly rich disk operating system which adds a host of features not available on other 8-bit machines. IO redirection and batch processing, memory management, paths of various sorts... Here's a link to the Side2 cart, which comes with the SDX firmware pre- loaded: https://lotharek.pl/productdetail.php?id=55 Being able to load the SIDE driver and access the CF slot as a hard disk is my primary purpose. The machine will have ample memory to run real programs while running SDX, which is also very important. Best, Jeff On Fri, 2019-08-02 at 13:06 -0500, Eric Christopherson wrote: > On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 12:39 PM Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > I'm building as many as ten of a 512k Axlon compatible memory board > > for > > > > the Atari 800 (not xl) computer. If you'd like to have one, please > > > > message me and let me know so I can reserve one for you. > > > > > > > > I'm not sure of my cost at the moment, but it is something on the > > order > > > > of $30.00 per board. I'll tot things up when I get around to it, > > but > > > > it will probably come out to less. So for parts and shipping, you > > can > > > > have one. Here's a photo of the completed board: > > > > > > > > https://atariage.com/forums/topic/256464-designing-an-axlon-compatible-board/page/2/#comments > > > > > > > > https://atariage.com/forums/topic/256464-designing-an-axlon-compatible-board/page/2/#comments > > > > > > > > I've got all the parts on order but the boards, for which I'm > > waiting > > > > for a quote. I gather the boards are about $10.00 each but am not > > > > counting my chickens quite yet. > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > > > Technoid Mutant > > Hi, Technoid! > > I'm certainly interested. I didn't know 512KB was possible in the > original 800. Other than RAM disks, do you know what sorts of things > it would let me do? > > From kevin.bowling at kev009.com Fri Aug 2 14:40:58 2019 From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2019 12:40:58 -0700 Subject: IBM Series/1 Message-ID: Anyone have one of these? I'd like to find a system, but images of the OS media would be interesting. Regards, Kevin From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Aug 2 15:22:40 2019 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2019 13:22:40 -0700 Subject: VCF West? In-Reply-To: References: <8f5ec51d-8d9f-b885-125a-b883bc049a1a@snarc.net> <01d501d54893$b64cb350$22e619f0$@net> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 1, 2019 at 4:19 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> our legendary VCF consignment sale, > On Thu, 1 Aug 2019, Ali via cctalk wrote: > > Maybe at the other meets (e.g. MW or Pacific NW) but the last few times > not so much at VCFW. Last year I bought some stuff because Fred > specifically brought stuff for me. > > I don't know about "legendary"; I'd reserve that for Sellam's early events > which were more like a flea market plus exhibits. BUT, I was very pleased > with how consignment was managed last year. I was surprised at how > thoroughly the "FREE" table cleared. > > >> great food > > Yeah..... Not quite ;) > > Well, it wasn't bad. Not great; but OK. > Much like Diogenes' favorite wine :-) > > >> , and incredible company/friends! > > This now be true! > > And how! > > > Honestly the exhibits are great, the CHM access is an awesome bonus and > > do what I do eat off site... > > Unfortunately I will be missing it this year. > > It's a maybe whether I can manage to get there this year. > But, I won't be able to take a carload of stuff. > > > p.s. Is this one of those thread jacking incidence you were talking > about? ;) > Well, announcement of Apple Ones is certain to bring about arguments about > the machine. I think that one is well worth $666.66 but not what people > are paying for them. > > This "thread jacking" continuous heading off on tangents is the basis of > Vannevar Bush's dislike of hierarchical organization of information, Ted > Nelson's "Hypertext", and Berners-Lee's WWW. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com As if anyone needed any further incentive to come to VCF, but I dragged along a couple of personal items for consignment just in case anyone needed any /enticement/: - Terak 8510 - Xerox 6085 ("Daybreak") Now you all have to come and buy my stuff (so I can fund a computer rescue, help!) - Josh From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Aug 2 15:26:28 2019 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2019 13:26:28 -0700 Subject: IBM Series/1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3856DDD5-95F3-42DB-925D-AEAF89A2AAD2@shiresoft.com> I have what appears to be a nice one?I just haven?t had time to do anything with it yet. It does have 2 discs (I think one is 40MB and the other is 300MB). There is a big label on the system that says ?DEV?T TOOLS? so I?m hopeful that there?s some interesting SW on it. TTFN - Guy > On Aug 2, 2019, at 12:40 PM, Kevin Bowling via cctalk wrote: > > Anyone have one of these? I'd like to find a system, but images of > the OS media would be interesting. > > Regards, > Kevin From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 2 17:49:30 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2019 16:49:30 -0600 Subject: MULTIPROCESSING FOR THE IMPOVERISHED Part 1: a 6809 Uniprocessor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 8/2/2019 11:15 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > 1993 article on building a multiprocessor 6809 box. > > http://www.bradrodriguez.com/papers/6809cpu.htm Read that page years ago.I have always like the 6800 CPU model.I have used that model for a 18 and 20 bit cpu design currently being bread boarded in DE1 FPGA development kit, ~900 logic blocks and a few small ROM blocks. Where are all the articles about a TTL designed computer? Yes I know about (Homebuilt CPUs ring) but that is mostly today. What about the Late 70's and Early 80's? I need a the web site "C compiler for the IMPOVERISHED", I have Ron Cain's 1.0 Small C compiler modified to generate code for my architecture but the code is really inefficient. It is the only C compiler with source that fits in 64KB. (8080) Ben. From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Fri Aug 2 18:49:44 2019 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2019 18:49:44 -0500 (CDT) Subject: MULTIPROCESSING FOR THE IMPOVERISHED Part 1: a 6809 Uniprocessor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <376920833.897543.1564789784467@email.ionos.com> > On August 2, 2019 at 5:49 PM ben via cctalk wrote: > > > On 8/2/2019 11:15 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > 1993 article on building a multiprocessor 6809 box. > > > > http://www.bradrodriguez.com/papers/6809cpu.htm > > Read that page years ago.I have always like the 6800 CPU > model.I have used that model for a 18 and 20 bit cpu design > currently being bread boarded in DE1 FPGA development kit, > ~900 logic blocks and a few small ROM blocks. > > Where are all the articles about a TTL designed computer? > Yes I know about (Homebuilt CPUs ring) but that is mostly > today. What about the Late 70's and Early 80's? > > Ben. Byte had a 2 article series in September and October 1985 of EGO, a 16 bit TTL cpu: https://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-Byte/80s/Byte-1985-09-10th-Anniversary.pdf https://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-Byte/80s/Byte-1985-10.pdf Will "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." --? Antoine de Saint-Exupery "The names of global variables should start with? ? // "? --?https://isocpp.org From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Aug 2 20:18:16 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2019 20:18:16 -0500 Subject: IBM Series/1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5D44E0D8.2050900@pico-systems.com> On 08/02/2019 02:40 PM, Kevin Bowling via cctalk wrote: > Anyone have one of these? I'd like to find a system, but images of > the OS media would be interesting. > > I have some bits of several Series/1 systems, but no complete system at all. Jon From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Aug 2 21:32:44 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2019 22:32:44 -0400 Subject: IBM Series/1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a pair, plus parts. The hardware is excellent. They have fairly fast processors, and the I/O capacity is great. Reliability is typical IBM. The OS sucks balls. All the balls. Commercially, they were not a success, despite being IBM's first "open" system, in that they invited third party developers. It seems like every S/1 I have ever seen has some CDC DNA in it, for some reason. They ended up successful within IBM, once they found out they were better comms boxes than the real mainframe boxes (3725, for example). Some S/1s were built specifically for comms use on mainframes (7171). -- Will On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 3:41 PM Kevin Bowling via cctalk wrote: > > Anyone have one of these? I'd like to find a system, but images of > the OS media would be interesting. > > Regards, > Kevin From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Aug 2 22:04:43 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2019 03:04:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: IBM Series/1 In-Reply-To: <5D44E0D8.2050900@pico-systems.com> References: <5D44E0D8.2050900@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <1029686694.642586.1564801483552@mail.yahoo.com> Was IBM Series/1 for process control?Ed# writes:In a message dated 8/2/2019 6:18:22 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org? On 08/02/2019 02:40 PM, Kevin Bowling via cctalk wrote: > Anyone have one of these?? I'd like to find a system, but images of > the OS media would be interesting.? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? > > I have some bits of several Series/1 systems, but no complete system at all. Jon From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Fri Aug 2 22:37:07 2019 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2019 22:37:07 -0500 Subject: IBM Series/1 In-Reply-To: <1029686694.642586.1564801483552@mail.yahoo.com> References: <5D44E0D8.2050900@pico-systems.com> <1029686694.642586.1564801483552@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <18afb4fe-ab49-df64-3907-4958279f6e02@gmail.com> ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > Was IBM Series/1 for process control?Ed# > writes:In a message dated 8/2/2019 6:18:22 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org > On 08/02/2019 02:40 PM, Kevin Bowling via cctalk wrote: >> Anyone have one of these?? I'd like to find a system, but images of >> the OS media would be interesting. > I have some bits of several Series/1 systems, but no > complete system at all. > > Jon Given the little literature I've seen on the subject, and also the amount of real-time control computers that I've seen in labs being dismantled... I'd say that it was probably a late IBM response to PDP-11 and HP 21xx and 1xxx process control computers.? But I did not experience that era (I'm talking only about stuff that I've seen tossed out), so I am probably clueless. carlos. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Aug 2 22:49:38 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2019 23:49:38 -0400 Subject: IBM Series/1 In-Reply-To: <18afb4fe-ab49-df64-3907-4958279f6e02@gmail.com> References: <5D44E0D8.2050900@pico-systems.com> <1029686694.642586.1564801483552@mail.yahoo.com> <18afb4fe-ab49-df64-3907-4958279f6e02@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Given the little literature I've seen on the subject, and also the > amount of real-time control computers that I've seen in labs being > dismantled... I'd say that it was probably a late IBM response to PDP-11 > and HP 21xx and 1xxx process control computers. That would be correct - and is even shown in the period advertisements from IBM. In keeping with the DEC philosophy, the S/1 was a very open system,and in the mid 1970s, IBM tried to cultivate a sea of third party vendors, as there was for other minicomputer makers at the time. Some ventured in, but the third party market really never grew much. The S/1 was not IBMs first minicomputer by any metric. In process control, for example, the System/7 predated the Series/I, and the 1800 family before that, and the 1710 before that. A System/360 could also do realtime process control using something called a 1070, but very few were used this way. -- Will From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Aug 3 02:07:51 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2019 08:07:51 +0100 Subject: MULTIPROCESSING FOR THE IMPOVERISHED Part 1: a 6809 Uniprocessor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2dab01d549ca$2a567bf0$7f0373d0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of ben via cctalk > Sent: 02 August 2019 23:50 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: MULTIPROCESSING FOR THE IMPOVERISHED Part 1: a 6809 > Uniprocessor > > On 8/2/2019 11:15 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > 1993 article on building a multiprocessor 6809 box. > > > > http://www.bradrodriguez.com/papers/6809cpu.htm > > Read that page years ago.I have always like the 6800 CPU model.I have used > that model for a 18 and 20 bit cpu design currently being bread boarded in > DE1 FPGA development kit, > ~900 logic blocks and a few small ROM blocks. > > Where are all the articles about a TTL designed computer? > Yes I know about (Homebuilt CPUs ring) but that is mostly today. What about > the Late 70's and Early 80's? > Many were not published. A friend built a TTL computer based on the PDP-8 but no details were published. There was a design in the UK called the "weeny-bitter" in the Amateur Computer Club newsletters. Not sure how many got built... Information is scattered through the magazines. I think start at volume 2... http://www.smrcc.org.uk/members/g4ugm/acc.htm Dave > > I need a the web site "C compiler for the IMPOVERISHED", I have Ron Cain's > 1.0 Small C compiler modified to generate code for my architecture but the > code is really inefficient. > It is the only C compiler with source that fits in 64KB. (8080) Ben. > > > From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Fri Aug 2 17:17:24 2019 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2019 15:17:24 -0700 Subject: Avoid shipping with pre-sale deals on stuff from Sellam's collection--today only! Message-ID: Howdy Folks. I wish I had thought of this a few days ago, but I wasn't sure if I was going to be making it to the VCF event this weekend. Being that I am, I'd like to offer to bring any item that you want to purchase to the VCF if you're going to be there yourself. That way you can save on the shipping. Also note that I have "show prices", which are higher than my normal prices to offset the consignment commission. However, if you confirm a purchase beforehand, you will pay the regular asking price. The listings on my Virtual Warehouse of Computing Wonders are presently up to date: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit?pli=1&fbclid=IwAR29aeaPInesPowqSLeq_ElmtOwSThjfRAJyW9T_oN6mnjPPt4wO1CchMGQ#gid=0&range=A1 Please be reminded that this is not my complete inventory, but merely what I have presently processed and listed from my warehouse mine. If there's something you are looking for that I don't have listed, please send a request by e-mail. Thanks! Sellam From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Aug 3 12:26:18 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2019 12:26:18 -0500 Subject: IBM Series/1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5D45C3BA.602@pico-systems.com> On 08/02/2019 09:32 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > I have a pair, plus parts. > > The hardware is excellent. They have fairly fast processors, and the > I/O capacity is great. Reliability is typical IBM. > > The OS sucks balls. All the balls. > > Commercially, they were not a success, despite being IBM's first > "open" system, in that they invited third party developers. It seems > like every S/1 I have ever seen has some CDC DNA in it, for some > reason. They ended up successful within IBM, once they found out they > were better comms boxes than the real mainframe boxes (3725, for > example). Some S/1s were built specifically for comms use on > mainframes (7171). > > Yes, we used some Series/1 machines at Washington University for async dialup and local terminal use. They had a channel interface, and this worked WAY better than even the Memorex 1270, which still hit the system with a huge amount of interrupts. We also got a disk development lab donated from IBM that was all run by S/1 systems. They scrapped those and a bunch of the SLT/MST interface gear, and replaced it with modern stuff. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Aug 3 12:29:01 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2019 12:29:01 -0500 Subject: IBM Series/1 In-Reply-To: <1029686694.642586.1564801483552@mail.yahoo.com> References: <5D44E0D8.2050900@pico-systems.com> <1029686694.642586.1564801483552@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5D45C45D.3040601@pico-systems.com> On 08/02/2019 10:04 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > Was IBM Series/1 for process control?Ed# > I don't think it was necessarily DESIGNED for process control, it was a decent 16-bit mini. But, it did get USED a lot for that application. They were also used as interfaces from the IBM channel architecture to serial ports, where the 360/370's were hurt very badly by interrupt load. Jon From kevin.bowling at kev009.com Sat Aug 3 13:37:24 2019 From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2019 11:37:24 -0700 Subject: IBM Series/1 In-Reply-To: <5D45C45D.3040601@pico-systems.com> References: <5D44E0D8.2050900@pico-systems.com> <1029686694.642586.1564801483552@mail.yahoo.com> <5D45C45D.3040601@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: I'm pretty sure it was intended as a PLC or more precisely a PDP11 competitor as others stated. I am reading an excellent book "The Small Computer Concept" which kind of awe inspiring lays out the need for the Series/1, the ISA, and monitor functions in 400 pages. On Sat, Aug 3, 2019 at 10:29 AM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > On 08/02/2019 10:04 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > Was IBM Series/1 for process control?Ed# > > > I don't think it was necessarily DESIGNED for process > control, it was a decent 16-bit mini. > But, it did get USED a lot for that application. They were > also used as interfaces from the IBM channel architecture to > serial ports, where the 360/370's were hurt very badly by > interrupt load. > > Jon From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Aug 3 14:06:16 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2019 13:06:16 -0600 Subject: MULTIPROCESSING FOR THE IMPOVERISHED Part 1: a 6809 Uniprocessor In-Reply-To: <2dab01d549ca$2a567bf0$7f0373d0$@gmail.com> References: <2dab01d549ca$2a567bf0$7f0373d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Many were not published. A friend built a TTL computer based on the PDP-8 but no details were published. > There was a design in the UK called the "weeny-bitter" in the Amateur Computer Club newsletters. Not sure how many got built... > Information is scattered through the magazines. I think start at volume 2... > > http://www.smrcc.org.uk/members/g4ugm/acc.htm > > Dave Thank you. That is better reading than BYTE. 250 pages of full page ADS before you hit the text content. My only question is how much a Pound was in Canadian Dollars in 1976? Ben. From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Aug 3 17:42:54 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2019 17:42:54 -0500 Subject: MULTIPROCESSING FOR THE IMPOVERISHED Part 1: a 6809 Uniprocessor In-Reply-To: References: <2dab01d549ca$2a567bf0$7f0373d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5D460DEE.30009@pico-systems.com> On 08/03/2019 02:06 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > >> Many were not published. A friend built a TTL computer >> based on the PDP-8 but no details were published. A field service tech at a company I once worked for built a 16-bit computer that was a whole generation better than the 12-bit machines that company made. I know a few of them were built by others that worked there. Most programs were entered through the front panel switches. This was probably about 1976 or so. Display was via an oscilloscope. It was called the Mike Smith 1. I've never found any reference to it online. Jon From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sat Aug 3 15:55:19 2019 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2019 16:55:19 -0400 Subject: IBM Series/1 (Kevin Bowling) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2019 12:40:58 -0700 > From: Kevin Bowling > Subject: IBM Series/1 > > Anyone have one of these? I'd like to find a system, but images of > the OS media would be interesting. > > Regards, > Kevin > The RICM has lots of Series/1 systems. They haven't been powered on for decades. You are welcome to explore what we have. http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/ibm-series1 -- Michael Thompson From woolfson at telswitch.com Sun Aug 4 15:24:31 2019 From: woolfson at telswitch.com (Aaron Woolfson) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2019 13:24:31 -0700 Subject: Selling my Data I/O 29B programmer Message-ID: <617E2949-801A-4ACC-8FC6-B9ECFBD24F02@telswitch.com> Just a heads? up to the group that I am not using this any more; ever since I restored the PLATO terminals for LCM and CHM, I have not touched the 29B. I don?t think that I am going to be having much use for it since I have not been dabbling in vintage hardware. If anyone is interested, it is listed right now; but I am more or less interested in giving it a good home and if someone wants it, just contact me directly and I?ll be happy to try to make that happen (and I can remove the auction if nobody has bid). https://www.ebay.com/itm/233305501413 From sieler at allegro.com Sun Aug 4 16:37:38 2019 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2019 14:37:38 -0700 Subject: IBM Series/1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > > The hardware is excellent. They have fairly fast processors, and the > > I/O capacity is great. Reliability is typical IBM. > > > > The OS sucks balls. All the balls. > > > > Commercially, they were not a success, despite being IBM's first > > "open" system, in that they invited third party developers. It seems When I joined HP in mid-1979, the first week I spotted an IBM Series/1 in a small conference room ... with an IBM repairman. The HP engineers had apparently blown out a memory board somehow while "looking" at it :) >From the HP 3000 viewpoint, we weren't worried about the Series/1. Stan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Aug 4 17:20:47 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2019 18:20:47 -0400 Subject: IBM Series/1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From the HP 3000 viewpoint, we weren't worried about the Series/1. Nobody was worried. -- Will From steven at malikoff.com Mon Aug 5 02:40:08 2019 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2019 17:40:08 +1000 Subject: MULTIPROCESSING FOR THE IMPOVERISHED Part 1: a 6809 Uniprocessor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7fd0bc202eef2d8ed2ace64e7cd35d8a.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Ben said > Where are all the articles about a TTL designed computer? > Yes I know about (Homebuilt CPUs ring) but that is mostly > today. What about the Late 70's and Early 80's? Well there's the EDUC-8, based on the PDP-8 instruction set and was published from 1974 to 1975 by Electronics Australia magazine, followed by a number of articles on building peripherals. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EDUC-8 I have all the original magazine issues for it, but you can get them all in book form from Silicon Chip magazine these days https://www.siliconchip.com.au/Shop/3 Steve. From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Mon Aug 5 10:31:34 2019 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams) Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2019 10:31:34 -0500 Subject: Various Mac PowerPC, Dec and Sun equipment available in Houston TX Message-ID: <18c992bf0cee65bd3c7f7cabbb770267@yahoo.com> The clearing continues... I have several system that are free to anyone who wants them before they get tossed. Local pick up gets preference but I'll ship if you are willing to pay for UPS packing and shipping. None of the systems have been powered on in several years and the DEC and Sun equipment is incomplete, see notes below. All systems are as is and include base system only, no monitors, keyboards, etc. All of the Macs came from a company that did audio/video production work. I believe these were mostly used to record and edit audio in a recording studio though some may have been used in their art department for graphics work. Systems include: Mac PowerPC 9600/300 Five Mac PowerPC G4s (Couple of the systems have cases modded for rack mounting) The DEC equipment is as follows: MicroVAX 3100 - No idea what is inside or condition. Case has an opening where it appears a tape or removable drive once was installed but is no longer there. DEC Storage Expansion - Believe this went with the MicroVAX above but not sure, no idea what all is inside or condition. And finally the Sun: Sun SparcStation 5 - No idea condition of what is inside, probably incomplete or missing components but no idea. All the above are offered free for local pickup or you pay to have them packed and shipped. Located in Houston, TX. Contact me off list if you have any questions or want to arrange pickup. Best, David Williams www.trailingedge.com From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon Aug 5 11:05:53 2019 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2019 12:05:53 -0400 Subject: Needed: instruction manual for AVA 103C Message-ID: <31e701d54ba7$a8cee290$fa6ca7b0$@verizon.net> I just picked up an AVA Model 103C Floppy Exerciser. While it has a few quick tips silkscreened on the bottom of it, I think it would be helpful to have the full manual. I've done a fair bit of googling, but all I've turned up is several repair manuals for other equipment, suggesting the 103C as the ideal tool for testing and repairing their gear. Thanks, Bill Sudbrink --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From rlloken at telus.net Mon Aug 5 11:39:01 2019 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2019 10:39:01 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Alphaservers for free in Athabasca, Alberta Message-ID: I have access to 3 ES45s, a DS15, and an RA8000 in a tall blue Compaq rack in Athabasca, Alberta. All the in-service disks were removed but all the spares are available. The box also has the fibre switches used the connect the RA8000 to the servers and the cables, much of the paper documentation, and assorted doodads. It would probably work if plugged in but it has been a year since it was turned off. Athabasca, Alberta is about 1.000km North of the US Montana border and 10,000km from nowhere but it is summer and the weather is nice so we might be able to load this great heavy beast on a trailer and haul it up to a day's drive away if anybody want this stuff. This is rural Alberta so a day's drive is a l-o-n-g way (like 1,000km?). I tried to give this away in early 2019 but the deal fell through. If I don't get a place to send it then I will keep the DS15 and convert the rest of it into scrap metal. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear, Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Aug 5 12:37:59 2019 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2019 12:37:59 -0500 Subject: IBM Series/1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001201d54bb4$8616df20$92449d60$@classiccmp.org> I used to run a system at Anheuser-Busch in the late 80's, ISTR it was a 4331, 4341, or 4381. Under VM/370, It ran SMI's (Systems Management, Inc) Pick/370 OS. IBM terminals could attach direct or via an establishment controller, but dumb serial terminals could connect via the series/1's which acted as a front end processor/aggregator (via a Micom switch that just let you select the Pick/370 machine or one of the many Pr1me's about One Busch Place). There was also a standalone series/1 next to it, which ran CDI's (forget the company name) implementation of Pick for the Series/1. They used this for connecting a bunch of serial ports to timeclocks throughout the plant. Workers coming in and out hit these and there was some Pick/BASIC code that comprised a time & attendance system. Data capture from the timeclocks involved the full character set which normal Pick I/O had issues with, so I wrote a program in Pick Assembler to deal with that and pass sanitized/escaped data back to the host. My most distinct memory of this is the simultaneously cute and annoying 'BLEET' sound that each button on the front panel (membrane keypad) made. Fun Times. J From web at loomcom.com Mon Aug 5 13:03:42 2019 From: web at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2019 11:03:42 -0700 Subject: Alphaservers for free in Athabasca, Alberta In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5a6a1ded-691c-43f8-ab65-3029d3936fae@www.fastmail.com> On Mon, Aug 5, 2019, at 9:39 AM, Richard Loken via cctalk wrote: > I have access to 3 ES45s, a DS15, and an RA8000 in a tall blue Compaq rack > in Athabasca, Alberta. All the in-service disks were removed but all the > spares are available. The box also has the fibre switches used the connect > the RA8000 to the servers and the cables, much of the paper documentation, > and assorted doodads. It would probably work if plugged in but it has been > a year since it was turned off. That's a really impressively beefy Alpha setup. I just did the math, and Athabasca is about a 14 hour drive from here in Seattle. I'm tempted, but... I don't know where I'd put it. I'm clean out of room for a whole rack :( I do hope someone rescues it. Consider this a *nudge* to the group. If you have space, and means of transport, this is really worth picking up, so please go get it! -Seth -- Seth Morabito Poulsbo, WA web at loomcom.com From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Aug 5 13:35:19 2019 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2019 18:35:19 +0000 Subject: Alphaservers for free in Athabasca, Alberta In-Reply-To: <5a6a1ded-691c-43f8-ab65-3029d3936fae@www.fastmail.com> References: <5a6a1ded-691c-43f8-ab65-3029d3936fae@www.fastmail.com> Message-ID: > On Aug 5, 2019, at 1:03 PM, Seth Morabito via cctalk wrote: > > I'm tempted, but... I don't know where I'd put it. I'm clean out of room for a whole rack :( Seth, you just need to think about this objectively. Alphaserver rack ?.. refrigerator. Which will give you more pleasure in the long run? Glad to help out there. :-) > I do hope someone rescues it. Seriously, *SO* strongly seconded? San Antonio is a long way from Athabasca. Sigh. - Mark From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Aug 5 14:38:21 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2019 13:38:21 -0600 Subject: MULTIPROCESSING FOR THE IMPOVERISHED Part 1: a 6809 Uniprocessor In-Reply-To: <7fd0bc202eef2d8ed2ace64e7cd35d8a.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <7fd0bc202eef2d8ed2ace64e7cd35d8a.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <86c48be8-775f-994c-ac26-4f47923af25c@jetnet.ab.ca> On 8/5/2019 1:40 AM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > Ben said >> Where are all the articles about a TTL designed computer? >> Yes I know about (Homebuilt CPUs ring) but that is mostly >> today. What about the Late 70's and Early 80's? > > Well there's the EDUC-8, based on the PDP-8 instruction set and was published from 1974 to 1975 > by Electronics Australia magazine, followed by a number of articles on building peripherals. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EDUC-8 I saw that a few times but I never could find the link again. > I have all the original magazine issues for it, but you can get them all in book form from > Silicon Chip magazine these days > https://www.siliconchip.com.au/Shop/3 I suspect you can't get the PCB's any more and the card edge connectors. > Steve. The Amateur Computer Club magazines gave me just what I was looking for as they had prices listed for the chips sold at the time. I noticed several people were finding very old machines for a song, (1972-1977) did that happen also here in America? Ben. From linimon at lonesome.com Mon Aug 5 14:50:35 2019 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2019 19:50:35 +0000 Subject: Alphaservers for free in Athabasca, Alberta In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20190805195034.GA6262@lonesome.com> On Mon, Aug 05, 2019 at 10:39:01AM -0600, Richard Loken via cctalk wrote: > Athabasca, Alberta is about 1.000km North of the US Montana border > and 10,000km from nowhere And 2,248 miles from my house, according to Google Maps :-) I'll bet it would be a pretty road trip but I think I'll have to pass ... mcl From aperry at snowmoose.com Mon Aug 5 15:14:54 2019 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2019 13:14:54 -0700 Subject: Alphaservers for free in Athabasca, Alberta In-Reply-To: <20190805195034.GA6262@lonesome.com> References: <20190805195034.GA6262@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <5ca9cc47-248f-ded4-3564-5ba59fa4fd5e@snowmoose.com> On 8/5/19 12:50 PM, Mark Linimon via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Aug 05, 2019 at 10:39:01AM -0600, Richard Loken via cctalk wrote: >> Athabasca, Alberta is about 1.000km North of the US Montana border >> and 10,000km from nowhere > > And 2,248 miles from my house, according to Google Maps :-) > > I'll bet it would be a pretty road trip but I think I'll have to pass ... I have been most of the way there. Passenger in an RV from Seattle to Edson, AB and back and I have flown to Edmonton and driven to Edson. It is pretty, particularly when someone else is driving. I live around 10 miles from Seth, so it the same 14-15 hour trip that he would have. The Bay Area is closer. And I have no room anyway. But so tempting. alan From RichA at livingcomputers.org Mon Aug 5 15:06:16 2019 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2019 20:06:16 +0000 Subject: mid-range IBM systems [was RE: IBM Series/1] Message-ID: From: Jay West Sent: Monday, August 05, 2019 10:38 AM > I used to run a system at Anheuser-Busch in the late 80's, ISTR it was a > 4331, 4341, or 4381. The 4331, 4361 and 4341 are slightly more than waist high. The 4381 is a high-boy cabinet. Rich Rich Alderson Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computers: Museum + Labs 2245 1st Ave S Seattle, WA 98134 http://www.LivingComputers.org/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 5 18:42:24 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2019 19:42:24 -0400 Subject: Control Data Cyber 960 available Message-ID: I just received a pile of goodies from BT Federal, the last remaining bit of Control Data. Part of the goodies included a complete set of spare CPU boards for a Cyber 960. This means my extra Cy960 is surplus to my needs - I bought it strictly as a source of spare parts. So it needs to go. The world is not all DEC and IBM. Play around with machine that has Seymour's fingerprints all over it. This is an ex-Florida Light and Power box. Mind you, this is a serious machine. It sucks a lot of power, and weighs a lot. 5000 pounds total in three cabinets. Completely over engineered. See the cray-cyber guys website for more specs. This is the CPU only - no disks or tapes, but I could include a DI with it (sort of a channel attached comms box for connecting terminals, printers, and networks). I think the cray-cyber guys are working on getting an emulator working for disk and tape. Software and docs are very available. No goofy license needed. Anyway, available pretty much immediately. Located in the Hudson Valley of NY. Serious machine, so serious inquiries only, please (off list). -- Will From boris at summitclinic.com Mon Aug 5 19:51:16 2019 From: boris at summitclinic.com (Boris Gimbarzevsky) Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2019 16:51:16 -0800 Subject: Alphaservers for free in Athabasca, Alberta In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20190806005120.A00A2273CF@mx1.ezwind.net> A mere 579 miles from Kamloops. Unfortunately have to talk to my wife who thinks I have too many computers even though I've given away bulk of my DEC stuff. Never got a chance to play around on Alpha as it came out during my Mac days. >I have access to 3 ES45s, a DS15, and an RA8000 in a tall blue >Compaq rack in Athabasca, Alberta. All the in-service disks were >removed but all the spares are available. The box also has the >fibre switches used the connect the RA8000 to the servers and the >cables, much of the paper documentation, and assorted doodads. It >would probably work if plugged in but it has been a year since it >was turned off. > >Athabasca, Alberta is about 1.000km North of the US Montana border >and 10,000km from nowhere but it is summer and the weather is nice >so we might be able to load this great heavy beast on a trailer and >haul it up to a day's drive away if anybody want this stuff. This >is rural Alberta so >a day's drive is a l-o-n-g way (like 1,000km?). > >I tried to give this away in early 2019 but the deal fell through. If >I don't get a place to send it then I will keep the DS15 and convert the >rest of it into scrap metal. >-- > Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear, > Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" > ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Aug 5 21:40:08 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2019 20:40:08 -0600 Subject: Alphaservers for free in Athabasca, Alberta In-Reply-To: <20190806005120.A00A2273CF@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <20190806005120.A00A2273CF@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <12fd505d-2c4f-c9ab-2edd-aecc2b42bb96@jetnet.ab.ca> On 8/5/2019 6:51 PM, Boris Gimbarzevsky via cctalk wrote: > A mere 579 miles from Kamloops.? Unfortunately have to talk to my wife > who thinks I have too many computers even though I've given away bulk of > my DEC stuff.? Never got a chance to play around on Alpha as it came out > during my Mac days. Now why could it not be a nice little PDP 11. Ben. From rlloken at telus.net Mon Aug 5 22:01:12 2019 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2019 21:01:12 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Alphaservers for free in Athabasca, Alberta In-Reply-To: <12fd505d-2c4f-c9ab-2edd-aecc2b42bb96@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20190806005120.A00A2273CF@mx1.ezwind.net> <12fd505d-2c4f-c9ab-2edd-aecc2b42bb96@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Aug 2019, ben via cctalk wrote: > Now why could it not be a nice little PDP 11. > Ben. I once had a pDp11/04 which I let go, it did not seem like much at the time but now I feel differantly. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear, Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Aug 5 22:24:30 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2019 21:24:30 -0600 Subject: Alphaservers for free in Athabasca, Alberta In-Reply-To: <12fd505d-2c4f-c9ab-2edd-aecc2b42bb96@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20190806005120.A00A2273CF@mx1.ezwind.net> <12fd505d-2c4f-c9ab-2edd-aecc2b42bb96@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 8/5/19 8:40 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > Now why could it not be a nice little PDP 11. I thought that it could be if it was running emulation software. Or was that more that the VAX-11 could emulate a PDP-11 up to a specific version & hardware combination? (Read: Did this functionality not get carried forward to the Alphas?) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From boris at summitclinic.com Mon Aug 5 22:25:32 2019 From: boris at summitclinic.com (Boris Gimbarzevsky) Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2019 19:25:32 -0800 Subject: Alphaservers for free in Athabasca, Alberta In-Reply-To: <12fd505d-2c4f-c9ab-2edd-aecc2b42bb96@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20190806005120.A00A2273CF@mx1.ezwind.net> <12fd505d-2c4f-c9ab-2edd-aecc2b42bb96@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20190806032545.141944E69B@mx2.ezwind.net> Had to give away my Minc system with 2 RLO2 drives and 2 RK03 drives but it did go to a good home. Have a couple of 11/23 systems left but have been in storeage long enough that can't fire them up without first totally going over power supplies as large electrolytics don't age well. My wife is after me to get rid of "old stuff" but it's the most fun to use and easiest to repair. May have to placate her by getting rid of my collection of 80x86 PC's which can now be easily replaced by Propeller systems for data acquisition applications. >On 8/5/2019 6:51 PM, Boris Gimbarzevsky via cctalk wrote: >>A mere 579 miles from Kamloops.? Unfortunately >>have to talk to my wife who thinks I have too >>many computers even though I've given away bulk >>of my DEC stuff.? Never got a chance to play >>around on Alpha as it came out during my Mac days. > >Now why could it not be a nice little PDP 11. >Ben. > From rlloken at telus.net Mon Aug 5 23:41:25 2019 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2019 22:41:25 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Alphaservers for free in Athabasca, Alberta In-Reply-To: <20190806005120.42EF5200EB@mtlp000059.email.telus.net> References: <20190806005120.42EF5200EB@mtlp000059.email.telus.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Aug 2019, Boris Gimbarzevsky wrote: > A mere 579 miles from Kamloops. Unfortunately have to talk to my wife who > thinks I have too many computers even though I've given away bulk of my DEC > stuff. Never got a chance to play around on Alpha as it came out during my > Mac days. A mere 1,000km, South I assume since you gave the distance in miles but I don't think you want a 7 foot rack of ES45s in your living room - the power bill, the heat, and the fan noise would wear on you after a while. Without looking it up, I imagine I am about 1,000km the other way from Kamloops. We could meet in the middle, have a beer together, and trade trailers. :) -- Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear, Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Aug 6 02:19:55 2019 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 01:19:55 -0600 Subject: MULTIPROCESSING FOR THE IMPOVERISHED Part 1: a 6809 Uniprocessor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 11:15 AM Liam Proven via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > 1993 article on building a multiprocessor 6809 box. > http://www.bradrodriguez.com/papers/6809cpu.htm > I disagree very much with the author's advice to use the MC6809 rather than the MC6809E. With the E version you have to supply a quadrature clock, but all that's required to generate that is a single-phase 4x clock (which you need with either the E or non-E part) and a single 74HCT74. If you feed your single-phase 4x clock into multiple 6809 (non-E) parts, their E clock phases won't match, but will be off by arbitrary multiples of 1/4 cycle, which makes the shared memory design unnecessarily difficult. From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Aug 6 02:43:36 2019 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 01:43:36 -0600 Subject: MULTIPROCESSING FOR THE IMPOVERISHED Part 1: a 6809 Uniprocessor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 1:19 AM Eric Smith wrote: > With the [MC6809]E version you have to supply a quadrature clock, but all > that's required to generate that is a single-phase 4x clock (which you need > with either the E or non-E part) and a single 74HCT74. > In case anyone needs to see how this is done, I've attached a schematic. It is shown with an 8 MHz half-can oscillator, which will result in 2 MHz outputs suitable for an MC68B09E, which is rated for 2 MHz operation. From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Aug 6 03:25:34 2019 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 03:25:34 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest 14 Talks and Talkers Message-ID: We can at last announce our speaker roster for this year's Vintage Computer Festival Midwest. I think we've got some strong topics and great variety this year, and even a little space to give Trixter a break from the A/V console. Check it out - and don't miss the cool new speaker bios page - click a speaker's name to read a bit about them: http://vcfmw.org/talks.html 39 days to go! -j From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Aug 6 03:33:17 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 09:33:17 +0100 Subject: IBM Series/1 In-Reply-To: <001201d54bb4$8616df20$92449d60$@classiccmp.org> References: <001201d54bb4$8616df20$92449d60$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <180d01d54c31$98df7ef0$ca9e7cd0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Jay West via > cctalk > Sent: 05 August 2019 18:38 > To: 'William Donzelli' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts' ; 'Stan Sieler' > > Subject: RE: IBM Series/1 > > I used to run a system at Anheuser-Busch in the late 80's, ISTR it was a 4331, > 4341, or 4381. Under VM/370, It ran SMI's (Systems Management, Inc) > Pick/370 OS. IBM terminals could attach direct or via an establishment > controller, but dumb serial terminals could connect via the series/1's which > acted as a front end processor/aggregator (via a Micom switch that just let you > select the Pick/370 machine or one of the many Pr1me's about One Busch > Place). > > There was also a standalone series/1 next to it, which ran CDI's (forget the > company name) implementation of Pick for the Series/1. They used this for > connecting a bunch of serial ports to timeclocks throughout the plant. Workers > coming in and out hit these and there was some Pick/BASIC code that > comprised a time & attendance system. Data capture from the timeclocks > involved the full character set which normal Pick I/O had issues with, so I wrote > a program in Pick Assembler to deal with that and pass sanitized/escaped data > back to the host. > IBM used the Series/1s to run the door locks in its UK offices. We also had one to provide X.25 interfaces to VM/SP. I never did much on it. I could back it up and edit the config for the X.25 but that was about it... Dave > My most distinct memory of this is the simultaneously cute and annoying > 'BLEET' sound that each button on the front panel (membrane keypad) made. > > Fun Times. > > J > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Aug 6 03:42:53 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 09:42:53 +0100 Subject: Alphaservers for free in Athabasca, Alberta In-Reply-To: References: <20190806005120.A00A2273CF@mx1.ezwind.net> <12fd505d-2c4f-c9ab-2edd-aecc2b42bb96@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <180f01d54c32$f06d2c20$d1478460$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Grant Taylor via > cctalk > Sent: 06 August 2019 04:25 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Alphaservers for free in Athabasca, Alberta > > On 8/5/19 8:40 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > > Now why could it not be a nice little PDP 11. > > I thought that it could be if it was running emulation software. > > Or was that more that the VAX-11 could emulate a PDP-11 up to a specific > version & hardware combination? (Read: Did this functionality not get carried > forward to the Alphas?) > I think it went from the VAX fairly early in the model range. I don't believe that any of the MicroVax machines implemented this. The VAX Architecture manual http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/vax/archSpec/EY-3459E-DP_VAX_Architecture_Reference_Manual_1987.pdf (page 289) simply says its an optional feature without saying which models had it... Dave > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Aug 6 06:00:49 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 11:00:49 +0000 Subject: Alphaservers for free in Athabasca, Alberta In-Reply-To: References: <20190806005120.A00A2273CF@mx1.ezwind.net> <12fd505d-2c4f-c9ab-2edd-aecc2b42bb96@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 8/5/19 11:24 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 8/5/19 8:40 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >> Now why could it not be a nice little PDP 11. > > I thought that it could be if it was running emulation software. > > Or was that more that the VAX-11 could emulate a PDP-11 up to a specific > version & hardware combination?? (Read: Did this functionality not get > carried forward to the Alphas?) That functionality didn't get carried forward past the first couple VAX. bill From turing at shaw.ca Tue Aug 6 07:38:40 2019 From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 06:38:40 -0600 (MDT) Subject: MULTIPROCESSING FOR THE IMPOVERISHED Part 1: a 6809 Uniprocessor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <458558756.361556426.1565095120162.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> I built a dual-6809 in the late '70s - it was a brand-new, exciting part - and we used the E part for exactly that reason. The system used memory that had an access time that was better than the 4x clock, so that each processor could run at full speed. From: "cctalk" To: "Liam Proven" , "cctalk" Sent: Tuesday, August 6, 2019 12:19:55 AM Subject: Re: MULTIPROCESSING FOR THE IMPOVERISHED Part 1: a 6809 Uniprocessor On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 11:15 AM Liam Proven via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > 1993 article on building a multiprocessor 6809 box. > http://www.bradrodriguez.com/papers/6809cpu.htm > I disagree very much with the author's advice to use the MC6809 rather than the MC6809E. With the E version you have to supply a quadrature clock, but all that's required to generate that is a single-phase 4x clock (which you need with either the E or non-E part) and a single 74HCT74. If you feed your single-phase 4x clock into multiple 6809 (non-E) parts, their E clock phases won't match, but will be off by arbitrary multiples of 1/4 cycle, which makes the shared memory design unnecessarily difficult. From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Aug 6 08:28:03 2019 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 13:28:03 +0000 Subject: Alphaservers for free in Athabasca, Alberta In-Reply-To: References: <20190806005120.42EF5200EB@mtlp000059.email.telus.net> Message-ID: <05FB7F86-8271-4B1B-A411-D3B986AFEDBB@swri.edu> > On Aug 5, 2019, at 11:41 PM, Richard Loken via cctalk wrote: > > [EXTERNAL EMAIL] > > On Mon, 5 Aug 2019, Boris Gimbarzevsky wrote: > >> A mere 579 miles from Kamloops. Unfortunately have to talk to my wife who thinks I have too many computers even though I've given away bulk of my DEC stuff. Never got a chance to play around on Alpha as it came out during my Mac days. > > A mere 1,000km, South I assume since you gave the distance in miles but > I don't think you want a 7 foot rack of ES45s in your living room - the > power bill, the heat, and the fan noise would wear on you after a while. > > Without looking it up, I imagine I am about 1,000km the other way from > Kamloops. We could meet in the middle, have a beer together, and trade > trailers. :) > -- > Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear, > Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" > ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black Or? what about: Seattle computer museum sets it up in their ?mainframes? area with opposed mirrors on either side, making it look like it?s one of an infinite row of racks in the world?s fastest supercomputer installation? Just thinking. From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Aug 6 10:38:55 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2019 10:38:55 -0500 Subject: Alphaservers for free in Athabasca, Alberta In-Reply-To: <180f01d54c32$f06d2c20$d1478460$@gmail.com> References: <20190806005120.A00A2273CF@mx1.ezwind.net> <12fd505d-2c4f-c9ab-2edd-aecc2b42bb96@jetnet.ab.ca> <180f01d54c32$f06d2c20$d1478460$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5D499F0F.2000107@pico-systems.com> On 08/06/2019 03:42 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk On Behalf Of Grant Taylor via >> cctalk >> Sent: 06 August 2019 04:25 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: Alphaservers for free in Athabasca, Alberta >> >> On 8/5/19 8:40 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >>> Now why could it not be a nice little PDP 11. >> I thought that it could be if it was running emulation software. >> >> Or was that more that the VAX-11 could emulate a PDP-11 up to a specific >> version & hardware combination? (Read: Did this functionality not get carried >> forward to the Alphas?) >> > I think it went from the VAX fairly early in the model range. I don't believe that any of the MicroVax machines implemented this. > The VAX Architecture manual > > The VAX 11/780 definitely had PDP-11 emulation, apparently in the microcode. I'm kind of guessing the 750 and 730 also had this. As far as I know, no later machines had hardware (microcode) emulation, and did it all by software. It didn't take very long for DEC to recompile all the VMS utilities into native VAX executables. I think we started with VMS 3.x and very quickly updated to a 4.1 VMS version. I was not aware of any PDP-11 code in them, but I did not look very closely. Jon From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Aug 6 10:47:21 2019 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 08:47:21 -0700 Subject: VCF Midwest 14 Talks and Talkers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Aug 6, 2019, at 1:25 AM, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > > http://vcfmw.org/talks.html The graphic design of that page is delightful! -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From raywjewhurst at gmail.com Tue Aug 6 11:29:45 2019 From: raywjewhurst at gmail.com (Ray Jewhurst) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 12:29:45 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 Emulation on VAX Was Re: Alphaservers for free in Athabasca, Alberta Message-ID: If I am not mistaken the 8600/50 were the last VAXen to feature PDP-11 emulation. After VMS 3.x the functionality was dropped so it was very short lived on the 8600. Ray From bkp at bkp.net Tue Aug 6 12:13:56 2019 From: bkp at bkp.net (Brian K. Perry) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 13:13:56 -0400 Subject: Photos from VCF West 2019 Message-ID: Thought I would share some photos I took of VCF West this past weekend in Mountain View, CA. https://photos.app.goo.gl/gF6Sd34SxQMzJEZPA Brian From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Aug 6 12:28:04 2019 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 10:28:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF Midwest 14 Talks and Talkers In-Reply-To: from "Mark J. Blair via cctalk" at "Aug 6, 19 08:47:21 am" Message-ID: <201908061728.x76HS4vc18284724@floodgap.com> > > http://vcfmw.org/talks.html > > The graphic design of that page is delightful! Especially the "Notice: Undefined index: currentpage in /var/www/vcfmw.org/footer.html on line 34" at the bottom. I felt right at home ;) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "The World is Not Enough" -------------------------- From lproven at gmail.com Tue Aug 6 12:38:01 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 19:38:01 +0200 Subject: VCF Midwest 14 Talks and Talkers In-Reply-To: <201908061728.x76HS4vc18284724@floodgap.com> References: <201908061728.x76HS4vc18284724@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 at 19:28, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: > > Especially the > > "Notice: Undefined index: currentpage in /var/www/vcfmw.org/footer.html on line 34" > > at the bottom. I felt right at home ;) I liked that too! Reminded me of: http://www.coboloncogs.org/INDEX.HTM (c) -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From aperry at snowmoose.com Tue Aug 6 12:38:31 2019 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 10:38:31 -0700 Subject: Photos from VCF West 2019 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48971724-5046-2aa6-62db-c372e0a49cfd@snowmoose.com> On 8/6/19 10:13 AM, Brian K. Perry via cctalk wrote: > Thought I would share some photos I took of VCF West this past weekend in > Mountain View, CA. > > https://photos.app.goo.gl/gF6Sd34SxQMzJEZPA Any (more) photos of Cameron's RISC laptops and portables exhibits? Or the IPX lunchbox exhibit (so I can compare it to my exhibit at last year's VCF PNW)? alan From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Tue Aug 6 12:50:42 2019 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 17:50:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: looking for a 7-track reel tape controller In-Reply-To: <253459904.2607465.1565113754077@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1444403480.4518506.1564608301720.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1444403480.4518506.1564608301720@mail.yahoo.com> <84C176FD-9546-4D6E-AD15-F9DBDF2E8677@comcast.net> <253459904.2607465.1565113754077@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <383247924.2614348.1565113842733@mail.yahoo.com> Hello Paul, thanks a lot for your hint to the DEC controller. I wasn't aware that the TM11, TMA11 and TMB11 controllers can handle 9-track as well as 7-track NRZI-encoded tape drives. However, all these controllers seem to be very rare in the public out there. Not too surprising considering that DEC TU and TS tape drives themselves are rare and that 7-track tape drives were soon replaced by 9-track tape technology in the early days. With best regards, Pierre ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.digitalheritage.de Am Dienstag, 6. August 2019, 19:49:14 MESZ hat P Gebhardt Folgendes geschrieben: Hello Paul, thanks a lot for your hint to the DEC controller. I wasn't aware that the TM11, TMA11 and TMB11 controllers can handle 9-track as well as 7-track NRZI-encoded tape drives. However, all these controllers seem to be very rare in the public out there. Not too surprising considering that DEC TU and TS tape drives themselves are rare and that 7-track tape drives were soon replaced by 9-track tape technology in the early days. With best regards, Pierre ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.digitalheritage.de Am Freitag, 2. August 2019, 07:04:02 MESZ hat Paul Koning via cctech Folgendes geschrieben: It may depend more on what kind of tape drive you have. The DEC TU10 controller handles both? 7 and 9 track tapes. ??? paul From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Tue Aug 6 12:50:42 2019 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 17:50:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: looking for a 7-track reel tape controller In-Reply-To: <253459904.2607465.1565113754077@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1444403480.4518506.1564608301720.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1444403480.4518506.1564608301720@mail.yahoo.com> <84C176FD-9546-4D6E-AD15-F9DBDF2E8677@comcast.net> <253459904.2607465.1565113754077@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <383247924.2614348.1565113842733@mail.yahoo.com> Hello Paul, thanks a lot for your hint to the DEC controller. I wasn't aware that the TM11, TMA11 and TMB11 controllers can handle 9-track as well as 7-track NRZI-encoded tape drives. However, all these controllers seem to be very rare in the public out there. Not too surprising considering that DEC TU and TS tape drives themselves are rare and that 7-track tape drives were soon replaced by 9-track tape technology in the early days. With best regards, Pierre ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.digitalheritage.de Am Dienstag, 6. August 2019, 19:49:14 MESZ hat P Gebhardt Folgendes geschrieben: Hello Paul, thanks a lot for your hint to the DEC controller. I wasn't aware that the TM11, TMA11 and TMB11 controllers can handle 9-track as well as 7-track NRZI-encoded tape drives. However, all these controllers seem to be very rare in the public out there. Not too surprising considering that DEC TU and TS tape drives themselves are rare and that 7-track tape drives were soon replaced by 9-track tape technology in the early days. With best regards, Pierre ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.digitalheritage.de Am Freitag, 2. August 2019, 07:04:02 MESZ hat Paul Koning via cctech Folgendes geschrieben: It may depend more on what kind of tape drive you have. The DEC TU10 controller handles both? 7 and 9 track tapes. ??? paul From edcross at gmail.com Tue Aug 6 12:54:21 2019 From: edcross at gmail.com (Ed C.) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 19:54:21 +0200 Subject: Photos from VCF West 2019 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for sharing! On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 7:14 PM Brian K. Perry via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Thought I would share some photos I took of VCF West this past weekend in > Mountain View, CA. > > https://photos.app.goo.gl/gF6Sd34SxQMzJEZPA > > Brian > From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Aug 6 13:10:00 2019 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 11:10:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Photos from VCF West 2019 In-Reply-To: <48971724-5046-2aa6-62db-c372e0a49cfd@snowmoose.com> from Alan Perry via cctalk at "Aug 6, 19 10:38:31 am" Message-ID: <201908061810.x76IA0E217956968@floodgap.com> > Any (more) photos of Cameron's RISC laptops and portables exhibits? I'll be putting up my own soonish as soon as I can escape from $DAYJOB. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Blanket statements are always wrong. --------------------------------------- From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Aug 6 14:04:12 2019 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 14:04:12 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest 14 Talks and Talkers In-Reply-To: References: <201908061728.x76HS4vc18284724@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 12:38 PM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 at 19:28, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Especially the > > > > "Notice: Undefined index: currentpage in /var/www/vcfmw.org/footer.html on line 34" > > > > at the bottom. I felt right at home ;) > > I liked that too! Reminded me of: > > http://www.coboloncogs.org/INDEX.HTM > > (c) I took a lot of, uh, "inspiration" from that page :) The PHP error on our page is unfortunately real (goes away on reload if you're not blocking cookies). I'm still laying out tables and have a shirt to design and.........marking "fixed in next release!" j From edcross at gmail.com Tue Aug 6 14:11:06 2019 From: edcross at gmail.com (Ed C.) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 21:11:06 +0200 Subject: VCF Midwest 14 Talks and Talkers In-Reply-To: References: <201908061728.x76HS4vc18284724@floodgap.com> Message-ID: Great page design, congrats. On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 9:04 PM Jason T via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 12:38 PM Liam Proven via cctalk > wrote: > > > > On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 at 19:28, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > > > Especially the > > > > > > "Notice: Undefined index: currentpage in /var/www/ > vcfmw.org/footer.html on line 34" > > > > > > at the bottom. I felt right at home ;) > > > > I liked that too! Reminded me of: > > > > http://www.coboloncogs.org/INDEX.HTM > > > > (c) > > I took a lot of, uh, "inspiration" from that page :) > > The PHP error on our page is unfortunately real (goes away on reload > if you're not blocking cookies). I'm still laying out tables and have > a shirt to design and.........marking "fixed in next release!" > > j > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Aug 6 14:47:59 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 13:47:59 -0600 Subject: MULTIPROCESSING FOR THE IMPOVERISHED Part 1: a 6809 Uniprocessor In-Reply-To: <458558756.361556426.1565095120162.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> References: <458558756.361556426.1565095120162.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <285362f5-f6ba-602f-5092-49a649c8ffd1@jetnet.ab.ca> On 8/6/2019 6:38 AM, Norman Jaffe via cctalk wrote: > I built a dual-6809 in the late '70s - it was a brand-new, exciting part - and we used the E part for exactly that reason. The system used memory that had an access time that was better than the 4x clock, so that each processor could run at full speed. > It was too bad the 6809 did not have a pin to indicate Instruction or Data memory bank in use. That would of given a real unix system in the 8 bit world, as by then (late 70s) 64kb was proving just to small for any real use. The 68000 was the only real 16/32 bit cpu out at time, but nobody could afford it. Ben. From jecel at merlintec.com Tue Aug 6 15:22:55 2019 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 17:22:55 -0300 Subject: MULTIPROCESSING FOR THE IMPOVERISHED Part 1: a 6809 Uniprocessor In-Reply-To: <285362f5-f6ba-602f-5092-49a649c8ffd1@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <458558756.361556426.1565095120162.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <285362f5-f6ba-602f-5092-49a649c8ffd1@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20190806202258.F039313C0A30@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Ben wrote on Tue, 6 Aug 2019 13:47:59 -0600 > It was too bad the 6809 did not have a pin to indicate Instruction or > Data memory bank in use. That would of given a real unix system in the > 8 bit world, as by then (late 70s) 64kb was proving just to small for > any real use. I added a circuit to generate such a signal in my 1983 children's computer: http://www.smalltalk.org.br/fotos/pegasus1.jpg If I remember correctly, it only used half of a 74LS74. The notebook with the circuit is a bit hard for me to get to right now. It didn't work perfectly since it depended on there being a non memory cycle between fetching the instruction bytes and the data access. And that doesn't happen if you use the zero offset addressing mode. So I just wrote my assembler to never generate that. Instead it used a five bit offset with a value of zero. This wastes a byte and a clock cycle but I thought it was worth it. The extra signal was used to select between ROM and DRAM. This meant I couldn't fetch data from ROM nor execute code from DRAM but since the only program I was interested in was the Logo interpreter it seemed like a reasonable design. I did have a Logo compiler planned, which would not have worked with this. > The 68000 was the only real 16/32 bit cpu out at time, but nobody could > afford it. The 6809, and specially the 6809E were hardly cheap themselves. And their prices stayed stable while the 68000's dropped quite a lot. By late 1985 the difference was rather small. And the 6847/6883 chipset was expensive too, at around $40 for these two chips. I regretted using them as you can get a lot of TTLs for $40 and have far nicer video than they gave you, specially if you didn't care about the built in text modes. -- Jecel From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Tue Aug 6 17:04:39 2019 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 23:04:39 +0100 Subject: RSTS/RSX manuals available in the UK Message-ID: <2079CAD4-D2C8-4DFB-BCA7-8DA5FDBA9DA0@gmail.com> Hi folks, I?ve held onto this collection of manuals for the last 3 years and now they really need to go because I?m having to move house in the next 2-3 months, my landlady is selling up. I thought it was too good to be true being in this house for 7.5 years! The RSTS manuals are V10 (1990) and there's 3 RSX-11M V4 as well as RSX DECNET. I don?t have the time to scan them myself otherwise I would?ve done ages ago. I?m heading past Jim Austin?s place in a couple of weeks? time so if nobody else is interested I can drop them off there if he?s up for it. Cheers, -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Aug 6 20:28:48 2019 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 22:28:48 -0300 Subject: IBM Series/1 In-Reply-To: <180d01d54c31$98df7ef0$ca9e7cd0$@gmail.com> References: <001201d54bb4$8616df20$92449d60$@classiccmp.org> <180d01d54c31$98df7ef0$ca9e7cd0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2019-08-06 5:33 a.m., Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk On Behalf Of Jay West via >> cctalk >> Sent: 05 August 2019 18:38 >> To: 'William Donzelli' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic >> and Off-Topic Posts' ; 'Stan Sieler' >> >> Subject: RE: IBM Series/1 >> >> I used to run a system at Anheuser-Busch in the late 80's, ISTR it was a 4331, >> 4341, or 4381. Under VM/370, It ran SMI's (Systems Management, Inc) >> Pick/370 OS. IBM terminals could attach direct or via an establishment >> controller, but dumb serial terminals could connect via the series/1's which >> acted as a front end processor/aggregator (via a Micom switch that just let you >> select the Pick/370 machine or one of the many Pr1me's about One Busch >> Place). >> >> There was also a standalone series/1 next to it, which ran CDI's (forget the >> company name) implementation of Pick for the Series/1. They used this for >> connecting a bunch of serial ports to timeclocks throughout the plant. Workers >> coming in and out hit these and there was some Pick/BASIC code that >> comprised a time & attendance system. Data capture from the timeclocks >> involved the full character set which normal Pick I/O had issues with, so I wrote >> a program in Pick Assembler to deal with that and pass sanitized/escaped data >> back to the host. >> > > IBM used the Series/1s to run the door locks in its UK offices. We also had one to provide X.25 interfaces to VM/SP. > I never did much on it. I could back it up and edit the config for the X.25 but that was about it... > > Dave > > >> My most distinct memory of this is the simultaneously cute and annoying >> 'BLEET' sound that each button on the front panel (membrane keypad) made. >> >> Fun Times. >> >> J >> > IBM used Series/1 to run the badge access systems everywhere. They where also used to run production lines in the plants.? In one of my jobs we had two channel attached Series/1 systems, that appeared to the MVS host system as 3274 terminal control units, and where used to create diskettes from images transmitted from another site.? I know of three chains of stores that once had Series/1 systems as a back end processor.? One of these store had systems without and operator panel or diskette drive, so to run diagnostics on them the service rep had to bring an operator panel and diskette drive with him.? A lot of the service reps where not fond of working on them because they where so reliable you could never become good at fixing them unless you had a lot of them in your territory, as a result our branch expert was the guy who serviced the local IBM plant. Paul. From guykd at optusnet.com.au Tue Aug 6 20:49:23 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2019 11:49:23 +1000 Subject: RSTS/RSX manuals available in the UK In-Reply-To: <2079CAD4-D2C8-4DFB-BCA7-8DA5FDBA9DA0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190807114923.012a0c88@mail.optusnet.com.au> Adrian, what order of volume and weight are these? I'm definitely interested, from a general preservation viewpoint, also a personal interest in lesser-known OS. And I have some PDP-11 systems to restore and play with. However I'm in Australia... Britain has a nice 'media mail' option - I buy 2nd hand books from British abebooks.com dealers, and postage to Australia is very cheap. But could that extend to these manuals? What box size? Could you send a photo or two? Btw, can anyone suggest links to overviews of DEC (and other?) operating systems evolution and influence over time? Regards, Guy http://everist.org/NobLog/ At 11:04 PM 6/08/2019 +0100, you wrote: >Hi folks, > >I've held onto this collection of manuals for the last 3 years and now they really need to go because I'm having to move house in the next 2-3 months, my landlady is selling up. I thought it was too good to be true being in this house for 7.5 years! > >The RSTS manuals are V10 (1990) and there's 3 RSX-11M V4 as well as RSX DECNET. I don't have the time to scan them myself otherwise I would've done ages ago. > >I'm heading past Jim Austin's place in a couple of weeks' time so if nobody else is interested I can drop them off there if he's up for it. > >Cheers, > >-- >adrian/witchy >Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? >t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs >w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From coreyvcf at gmail.com Tue Aug 6 15:51:44 2019 From: coreyvcf at gmail.com (corey cohen) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 16:51:44 -0400 Subject: Photos from VCF West 2019 In-Reply-To: <201908061810.x76IA0E217956968@floodgap.com> References: <201908061810.x76IA0E217956968@floodgap.com> Message-ID: That must have been photos from Saturday morning, by Saturday afternoon we had to rearrange the Apple-1 cases because we had 14 at the show at once with a minimum of 2 continually running and we were working on repairing some on the table behind the one with Marco Boglione?s Apple-1 playing music. We got 4 more running and 1 we started but didn?t finish because we ran out of time. We even had a few show up on Sunday that didn?t RSVP they were coming, so 17 unique Apple-1 computers, not counting the one in the CHM collection ,were on the floor at one time or another over the weekend. It was so crazy I never even powered mine up, though mine is usually shown running at VCF east so no excitement having it run. You also missed getting a picture of the AGC opened up. The guys who did the restoration of operational one on Sunday opened up the AGC so you could see the modules inside. Cheers, Corey corey cohen u??o? ???o? Sent from my iPhone On Aug 6, 2019, at 2:10 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: >> Any (more) photos of Cameron's RISC laptops and portables exhibits? > > I'll be putting up my own soonish as soon as I can escape from $DAYJOB. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Blanket statements are always wrong. --------------------------------------- From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 7 00:10:05 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 22:10:05 -0700 Subject: Scotch 777 "blue label" tape blues confirmed In-Reply-To: <89B877AB-EC73-4017-9519-DFA34E5B3365@nf6x.net> References: <2341b12a-30bd-f0d2-fa80-5109458adcce@sydex.com> <09af01d53ce8$06035aa0$120a0fe0$@com> <20190720162409.C6D7C2A5FE@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <29d38fba-e9e9-0399-4d00-7b62491a66ea@sydex.com> <89B877AB-EC73-4017-9519-DFA34E5B3365@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On 7/20/19 10:18 AM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > >> On Jul 20, 2019, at 9:38 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> your cleaning machine > > I do not have a cleaning machine. Do you suppose a cyclomethicone > applicator fabricobbled into the tape path of a tape drive might > work? > > I haven't encountered these sorts of issues in 9-track tapes yet, but > I've certainly been frustrated with binder bleed and/or sticky shed > when I tried to mess with a TK50 drive. Just shipped the last batch of tapes back--there were no fewer than six of those buggers in it--all had sticky/bleed whatever. Cyclomethicone did the trick on all six. These were all from between 1969-74. --Chuck From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Aug 7 01:23:51 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 06:23:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Photos from VCF West 2019 In-Reply-To: <48971724-5046-2aa6-62db-c372e0a49cfd@snowmoose.com> References: <48971724-5046-2aa6-62db-c372e0a49cfd@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <1253985525.1708853.1565159031555@mail.yahoo.com> Glad to see people showing the Fabritek some love! We have several if these at SMECC.. one can be traded off for another trainer or? Great display of trainers and single board things! I have a fascination? with the? trainers... We have one built by IBM that to date no one can identify date etc. Here is link to this.? (https://www.smecc.org/wpe_files/wpe45.jpg) see item on left. This trainer uses standard? consumer IBM vacuum tube plug-able units Does anyone have one also?? I would like to get a power supply or schematic for one to? demo it.- Ed# In a message dated 8/6/2019 10:38:42 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: On 8/6/19 10:13 AM, Brian K. Perry via cctalk wrote: > Thought I would share some photos I took of VCF West this past weekend in > Mountain View, CA. > > https://photos.app.goo.gl/gF6Sd34SxQMzJEZPA Any (more) photos of Cameron's RISC laptops and portables exhibits? Or the IPX lunchbox exhibit (so I can compare it to my exhibit at last year's VCF PNW)? alan From cctalk at snarc.net Wed Aug 7 00:07:50 2019 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 01:07:50 -0400 Subject: Photos from VCF West 2019 In-Reply-To: References: <201908061810.x76IA0E217956968@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <2c022bb9-ea42-6ecd-a66a-1e81c682e62e@snarc.net> > so 17 unique Apple-1 computers, not counting the one in the CHM collection ,were on the floor at one time or another over the weekend So, doing some simple math: 18 of ~70 remaining is .25xxx ... so 25% of all Apple 1s in existence were there! There hasn't been that many in one place since 1976. Pretty cool if you ask me. :) From lproven at gmail.com Wed Aug 7 06:01:03 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 13:01:03 +0200 Subject: VCF Midwest 14 Talks and Talkers In-Reply-To: References: <201908061728.x76HS4vc18284724@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Aug 2019 at 21:04, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > > I took a lot of, uh, "inspiration" from that page :) :-D -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From sales at elecplus.com Wed Aug 7 10:05:36 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 10:05:36 -0500 Subject: Sun Sparcstation 20 with accessories in Dallas Message-ID: <0a0001d54d31$91f4bf50$b5de3df0$@com> https://dallas-tx.americanlisted.com/75228/computers-parts/sun-sparcstation- sun-drives_23232767.html $50 OBO for take all Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Aug 7 10:29:54 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 11:29:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: eBay: PDP-8/A KL8A serial line card Message-ID: <20190807152954.1A87918C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> This item: https://www.ebay.com/itm/133136230586 is poorly titled, so people's searches might not find it; the M8319 is a KL8A 4 channel EIA RS232 or 20mA current loop serial hex I/O card for the PDP-8/A. Noel From useddec at gmail.com Wed Aug 7 12:45:33 2019 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 12:45:33 -0500 Subject: eBay: PDP-8/A KL8A serial line card In-Reply-To: <20190807152954.1A87918C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190807152954.1A87918C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: $325?? On Wed, Aug 7, 2019 at 10:30 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > This item: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/133136230586 > > is poorly titled, so people's searches might not find it; the M8319 is a > KL8A > 4 channel EIA RS232 or 20mA current loop serial hex I/O card for the > PDP-8/A. > > Noel > From nw.johnson at ieee.org Wed Aug 7 12:58:51 2019 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 13:58:51 -0400 Subject: eBay: PDP-8/A KL8A serial line card In-Reply-To: References: <20190807152954.1A87918C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Well, I sold a DL11 once for $900 CDN. But that was back when they were still used commercially! It's a bit much to expect peopl eto pay that now On 07/08/2019 13:45, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: > $325?? > > On Wed, Aug 7, 2019 at 10:30 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> This item: >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/133136230586 >> >> is poorly titled, so people's searches might not find it; the M8319 is a >> KL8A >> 4 channel EIA RS232 or 20mA current loop serial hex I/O card for the >> PDP-8/A. >> >> Noel >> -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 7 13:00:37 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 11:00:37 -0700 Subject: Anyone have any Datapoint software on floppy? Message-ID: <82c72962-ff52-a8df-68bb-239850638326@bitsavers.org> I picked up Eric's DP 1500 Z80 system at VCF West this weekend, unfortunately the boot disk has bad sectors. Anyone have any diskettes/images around for the 1500 or any other version of their systems? I took pics and dumped the firmware from it along with a DP 1551 pcb I've had for a while, and have been uploading the manuals to bitsavers that came with it, as well as a bunch that I've had scanned in the backlog From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Aug 7 14:07:26 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 15:07:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: eBay: PDP-8/A KL8A serial line card Message-ID: <20190807190726.2EBEF18C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Anderson > $325?? Well, they did list it with a 'Best Offer'. I figure the third time they get an offer of US$100 (or whatever the thing is actually worth, I don't track PDP-8 board values), it might become clear to them that they are way optimistic on the value. I once had to wait a year for an eBay seller to come down to a semi-reasonable price on some RK05 drives... Eventually they gave in. Noel From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Wed Aug 7 14:12:28 2019 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 21:12:28 +0200 Subject: Anyone have any Datapoint software on floppy? In-Reply-To: <82c72962-ff52-a8df-68bb-239850638326@bitsavers.org> References: <82c72962-ff52-a8df-68bb-239850638326@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <8dd86b6f-e22d-1278-f50b-4ba4f1a507c9@greenmail.ch> On 07.08.19 20:00, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I picked up Eric's DP 1500 Z80 system at VCF West this weekend, unfortunately > the boot disk has bad sectors. Anyone have any diskettes/images around for the > 1500 or any other version of their systems? > > I took pics and dumped the firmware from it along with a DP 1551 pcb I've had > for a while, and have been uploading the manuals to bitsavers that came with it, > as well as a bunch that I've had scanned in the backlog > > > I have Catweasel images of the 2 floppies that came with my 1550 Floppy drive (? alas I do not have the 1550 itself ...) ftp://ftp.dreesen.ch/Datapoint/FloppyImage ( these are multiple catweasel? scans of the same 2 floppies ) No idea what these actually contain..... Still hoping to find documentation and floppy images on the DP2200 / DP1100 floppy drive electronics. Jos From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 7 16:13:26 2019 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 21:13:26 +0000 Subject: Anyone have any Datapoint software on floppy? In-Reply-To: <8dd86b6f-e22d-1278-f50b-4ba4f1a507c9@greenmail.ch> References: <82c72962-ff52-a8df-68bb-239850638326@bitsavers.org>, <8dd86b6f-e22d-1278-f50b-4ba4f1a507c9@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: Anyone interested in Datapoint should get this book: Datapoint The Lost Story of the Texans Who Invented the Personal Computer Revolution ISBN 978-1-936449-36-1 Quite a story, I could not put it down. Randy ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of jos via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, August 7, 2019 12:12 PM To: Al Kossow via cctalk Subject: Re: Anyone have any Datapoint software on floppy? On 07.08.19 20:00, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I picked up Eric's DP 1500 Z80 system at VCF West this weekend, unfortunately > the boot disk has bad sectors. Anyone have any diskettes/images around for the > 1500 or any other version of their systems? > > I took pics and dumped the firmware from it along with a DP 1551 pcb I've had > for a while, and have been uploading the manuals to bitsavers that came with it, > as well as a bunch that I've had scanned in the backlog > > > I have Catweasel images of the 2 floppies that came with my 1550 Floppy drive ( alas I do not have the 1550 itself ...) ftp://ftp.dreesen.ch/Datapoint/FloppyImage ( these are multiple catweasel scans of the same 2 floppies ) No idea what these actually contain..... Still hoping to find documentation and floppy images on the DP2200 / DP1100 floppy drive electronics. Jos From chip at aresti.com Wed Aug 7 17:10:32 2019 From: chip at aresti.com (Chip Davis) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 18:10:32 -0400 Subject: I need a keypunch (briefly) Message-ID: <5c1abccc-5548-057d-fa0c-0b6be9d0c2c8@aresti.com> I was referred to this group by dave.g4ugm at gmail.com who thought you might be able to help me. I need to punch a half-dozen datacards for an award for a retired IBMer. Anyone know where I can find a working 026/029/129 within 300 miles of Raleigh, NC? Many thanks for any pointers. Chip Davis chip at aresti.com +1.919.271.2582 From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 7 18:27:16 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 16:27:16 -0700 Subject: Anyone have any Datapoint software on floppy? In-Reply-To: <8dd86b6f-e22d-1278-f50b-4ba4f1a507c9@greenmail.ch> References: <82c72962-ff52-a8df-68bb-239850638326@bitsavers.org> <8dd86b6f-e22d-1278-f50b-4ba4f1a507c9@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: <926aca4f-5a7c-376e-d98d-2195c72074ee@bitsavers.org> On 8/7/19 12:12 PM, jos via cctalk wrote: > No idea what these actually contain..... ET_1 is a DOS.H 2.4.2 boot disk From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Wed Aug 7 18:42:52 2019 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 19:42:52 -0400 Subject: looking for a 7-track reel tape controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > thanks a lot for your hint to the DEC controller. I wasn't aware that the > TM11, TMA11 and TMB11 controllers can handle 9-track as well as 7-track > NRZI-encoded tape drives. However, all these controllers seem to be very > rare in the public out there. Not too surprising considering that DEC TU > and TS tape drives themselves are rare and that 7-track tape drives were > soon replaced by 9-track tape technology in the early days. > > With best regards, > Pierre > The TC58 Magnetic Tape Controller for the PDP-8 and the TC59 for the PDP-9 can be connected to both 7-track and 9-track drives. The TU20 drive on the PDP-9 at the RICM is a 7-track drive. The only difference between the 7-track and 9-track versions of the TU20 is the tape head. All of the tape drive electronics is the same for both versions. -- Michael Thompson From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Wed Aug 7 18:44:38 2019 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 19:44:38 -0400 Subject: looking for a 7-track reel tape controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > thanks a lot for your hint to the DEC controller. I wasn't aware that the >> TM11, TMA11 and TMB11 controllers can handle 9-track as well as 7-track >> NRZI-encoded tape drives. However, all these controllers seem to be very >> rare in the public out there. Not too surprising considering that DEC TU >> and TS tape drives themselves are rare and that 7-track tape drives were >> soon replaced by 9-track tape technology in the early days. >> >> With best regards, >> Pierre > > The TC58 Magnetic Tape Controller for the PDP-8 and the TC59 for the PDP-9 can be connected to both 7-track and 9-track drives. The TU20 drive on the PDP-9 at the RICM is a 7-track drive. The only difference between the 7-track and 9-track versions of the TU20 is the tape head. All of the tape drive electronics is the same for both versions. -- Michael Thompson From useddec at gmail.com Wed Aug 7 21:06:24 2019 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 21:06:24 -0500 Subject: looking for a 7-track reel tape controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think you could change heads in a TU10 and add or take out a few boards. I've worked on 7 and 9 track versions in the day. On Wed, Aug 7, 2019 at 6:43 PM Michael Thompson via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > thanks a lot for your hint to the DEC controller. I wasn't aware that the > > TM11, TMA11 and TMB11 controllers can handle 9-track as well as 7-track > > NRZI-encoded tape drives. However, all these controllers seem to be very > > rare in the public out there. Not too surprising considering that DEC TU > > and TS tape drives themselves are rare and that 7-track tape drives were > > soon replaced by 9-track tape technology in the early days. > > > > With best regards, > > Pierre > > > > The TC58 Magnetic Tape Controller for the PDP-8 and the TC59 for the PDP-9 > can be connected to both 7-track and 9-track drives. The TU20 drive on the > PDP-9 at the RICM is a 7-track drive. The only difference between the > 7-track and 9-track versions of the TU20 is the tape head. All of the tape > drive electronics is the same for both versions. > > -- > Michael Thompson > From athornton at gmail.com Thu Aug 8 00:18:11 2019 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 22:18:11 -0700 Subject: I'm sharing a toy Message-ID: https://mvsevm.fsf.net Currently, the TOPS-10 guest account (42,42) and the Unix v7 account dmr have no passwords. Please treat the dmr account respectfully. I will get to account requests?eventually, probably. TImeliness is not guaranteed. All systems are hosted on Raspberry Pis (the 36-bit ones on a Pi 3B+ and the 16-bit and 32-bit ones on a Pi 2B+) on Debian Buster. Absolutely no guarantee of availability or usability is made. Adam From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Thu Aug 8 01:30:10 2019 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 03:30:10 -0300 Subject: I'm sharing a toy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for sharing! =) ---8<---Corte aqui---8<--- http://www.tabajara-labs.blogspot.com http://www.tabalabs.com.br ---8<---Corte aqui---8<--- Em qui, 8 de ago de 2019 ?s 02:18, Adam Thornton via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> escreveu: > https://mvsevm.fsf.net > > Currently, the TOPS-10 guest account (42,42) and the Unix v7 account dmr > have no passwords. > > Please treat the dmr account respectfully. > > I will get to account requests?eventually, probably. TImeliness is not > guaranteed. All systems are hosted on Raspberry Pis (the 36-bit ones on a > Pi 3B+ and the 16-bit and 32-bit ones on a Pi 2B+) on Debian Buster. > Absolutely no guarantee of availability or usability is made. > > Adam > > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Aug 8 02:25:33 2019 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 09:25:33 +0200 (CEST) Subject: looking for a 7-track reel tape controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Aug 2019, Michael Thompson wrote: > can be connected to both 7-track and 9-track drives. The TU20 drive on the > PDP-9 at the RICM is a 7-track drive. The only difference between the > 7-track and 9-track versions of the TU20 is the tape head. All of the tape > drive electronics is the same for both versions. The same is true for the HP 7970B tape drives, I even have a 9-track 7970B that can be switched between 200, 556 and 800 bpi. I only need a 7-track head... Christian From couryhouse at aol.com Thu Aug 8 02:44:35 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 07:44:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: I'm sharing a toy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1390356540.2056037.1565250275437@mail.yahoo.com> ?for example how many can be? on the? tops 10 system at a time? this is neat! # In a message dated 8/7/2019 11:30:35 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > https://mvsevm.fsf.net > > Currently, the TOPS-10 guest account (42,42) and the Unix v7 account dmr > have no passwords. > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Aug 8 06:01:11 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 11:01:11 +0000 Subject: eBay: PDP-8/A KL8A serial line card In-Reply-To: <20190807190726.2EBEF18C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190807190726.2EBEF18C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 8/7/19 3:07 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Paul Anderson > > > $325?? > > Well, they did list it with a 'Best Offer'. I figure the third time they get > an offer of US$100 (or whatever the thing is actually worth, I don't track > PDP-8 board values), it might become clear to them that they are way > optimistic on the value. > > I once had to wait a year for an eBay seller to come down to a semi-reasonable > price on some RK05 drives... Eventually they gave in. The wonders of eBay. Whenever I have tried to sell stuff it's worthless junk but when other people are selling the same thing it's solid gold. Thus the reason I gave up trying to sell anything there. I offer it places like this and if the people who actually use it don't think it has any real value I scrap it. bill From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Aug 8 06:47:22 2019 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 13:47:22 +0200 Subject: eBay: PDP-8/A KL8A serial line card In-Reply-To: References: <20190807190726.2EBEF18C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Den tors 8 aug. 2019 kl 13:01 skrev Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org>: > On 8/7/19 3:07 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > > From: Paul Anderson > > > > > $325?? > > > > I have some KL8A with the 4 DSUB BC08W cable in case someone want to trade for something interesting DECish stuff. /Mattis From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Thu Aug 8 08:59:10 2019 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2019 23:59:10 +1000 Subject: I'm sharing a toy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <189B60A4-3A2E-4E20-A063-8A00ECC84D37@kerberos.davies.net.au> > On 8 Aug 2019, at 15:18, Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: > > https://mvsevm.fsf.net > > Currently, the TOPS-10 guest account (42,42) and the Unix v7 account dmr have no passwords. Just logged into TOPS-10 for the first time in many years! Far too much brain bit rot but it will encourage me to build up my own RPi emulation setup! Thanks. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Aug 8 10:15:09 2019 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 10:15:09 -0500 Subject: I'm sharing a toy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Be careful eh about posting credentials right to a public mailing list like eh Sent from my iPad > On Aug 8, 2019, at 12:18 AM, Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: > > https://mvsevm.fsf.net > > Currently, the TOPS-10 guest account (42,42) and the Unix v7 account dmr have no passwords. > > Please treat the dmr account respectfully. > > I will get to account requests?eventually, probably. TImeliness is not guaranteed. All systems are hosted on Raspberry Pis (the 36-bit ones on a Pi 3B+ and the 16-bit and 32-bit ones on a Pi 2B+) on Debian Buster. Absolutely no guarantee of availability or usability is made. > > Adam > From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Aug 8 11:06:55 2019 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 09:06:55 -0700 Subject: Help ID'ing a PDP-8/A Omnibus board Message-ID: Hey all -- Got a PDP-8/A at VCFW this past weekend. It's an OEM model sans programmer panel and was apparently used in a CNC application. It contains a board I'm trying to ID. It says "PDP-8/A CONSOLE ROM" on it and has no other identifying marks other than a logo on the back. See the pictures here: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/pdp-8/8aconsole1.jpg http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/pdp-8/8aconsole2.jpg None of the braintrust at VCF were able to identify this mark. I'd guess that the board provides a simple ODT interface or something similar. The three ICs in the upper-left with the handwritten labels are 82S129 256x4 bipolar PROMs. They're not socketed so I haven't read them in yet. The 8/A's gonna need some TLC before I dare power it on... I'm mostly curious if anyone can ID the logo -- it would be interesting to know who made this thing. Thanks! Josh From systems.glitch at gmail.com Thu Aug 8 11:16:09 2019 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 12:16:09 -0400 Subject: Help ID'ing a PDP-8/A Omnibus board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >From the layout and text font, I'd guess Sundstrand (CNC machine company) but usually they put their logo/name on boards. I only have Unibus Sundstrand boards in the shop at the moment, but none of them have that B logo. Wouldn't be surprised if the B logo is from whoever made the boards, as in the actual board fab house. Thanks, Jonathan On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 12:07 PM Josh Dersch via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hey all -- > > Got a PDP-8/A at VCFW this past weekend. It's an OEM model sans programmer > panel and was apparently used in a CNC application. It contains a board > I'm trying to ID. It says "PDP-8/A CONSOLE ROM" on it and has no other > identifying marks other than a logo on the back. See the pictures here: > > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/pdp-8/8aconsole1.jpg > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/pdp-8/8aconsole2.jpg > > > None of the braintrust at VCF were able to identify this mark. I'd guess > that the board provides a simple ODT interface or something similar. The > three ICs in the upper-left with the handwritten labels are 82S129 256x4 > bipolar PROMs. They're not socketed so I haven't read them in yet. The > 8/A's gonna need some TLC before I dare power it on... > > I'm mostly curious if anyone can ID the logo -- it would be interesting to > know who made this thing. > > Thanks! > Josh > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Aug 8 11:19:07 2019 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 11:19:07 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_New_face_of_the_Bank_of_England's_=C2=A350_note_is?= =?utf-8?Q?_revealed_as_Alan_Turing?= In-Reply-To: <01cb01d53b8f$03bae600$0b30b200$@internode.on.net> References: <01cb01d53b8f$03bae600$0b30b200$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: This wound up in my junk mail folder Sent from my iPad > On Jul 15, 2019, at 11:29 PM, Kevin Parker via cctalk wrote: > > May be of interest to some list members > > > > https://www.bbc.com/news/business-48962557 > > > > > > Kevin Parker > > 0418 815 527 > > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 8 11:36:16 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 09:36:16 -0700 Subject: looking for a 7-track reel tape controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <12f5c7d7-524e-5eb3-6977-11d05b8372cd@sydex.com> On 8/8/19 12:25 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 7 Aug 2019, Michael Thompson wrote: >> can be connected to both 7-track and 9-track drives. The TU20 drive on >> the >> PDP-9 at the RICM is a 7-track drive. The only difference between the >> 7-track and 9-track versions of the TU20 is the tape head. All of the >> tape >> drive electronics is the same for both versions. > > The same is true for the HP 7970B tape drives, I even have a 9-track > 7970B that can be switched between 200, 556 and 800 bpi. I only need a > 7-track head... 7-track density settings only really matter when writing--a 200 or 556 cpi tape can be read at 800 without problems. --Chuck From athornton at gmail.com Thu Aug 8 12:21:55 2019 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 10:21:55 -0700 Subject: I'm sharing a toy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yeah, you might be able to DOS my Raspberry Pi. Maybe you could break out of simh and start using the Pi itself to mine bitcoins. That could cost me like literally dozens of cents worth of power. I suppose I should be a little concerned that once you've broken out of the simulation into the Pi, then you are on a machine which has access to the rest of my network. In which case, assuming you can exploit a remote vulnerability (or crack a credential), then, yeah, you could indeed somewhat inconvenience me. Well, here's hoping that there is lower-hanging fruit with more compute power out there. I suspect there is. Adam On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 8:15 AM Adrian Stoness wrote: > Be careful eh about posting credentials right to a public mailing list > like eh > > Sent from my iPad > > > On Aug 8, 2019, at 12:18 AM, Adam Thornton via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > https://mvsevm.fsf.net > > > > Currently, the TOPS-10 guest account (42,42) and the Unix v7 account dmr > have no passwords. > > > > Please treat the dmr account respectfully. > > > > I will get to account requests?eventually, probably. TImeliness is not > guaranteed. All systems are hosted on Raspberry Pis (the 36-bit ones on a > Pi 3B+ and the 16-bit and 32-bit ones on a Pi 2B+) on Debian Buster. > Absolutely no guarantee of availability or usability is made. > > > > Adam > > > From brain at jbrain.com Thu Aug 8 12:34:46 2019 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 12:34:46 -0500 Subject: I'm sharing a toy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3ab8bf23-fdfa-9527-548d-6e7b095204be@jbrain.com> On 8/8/2019 12:21 PM, Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: > Yeah, you might be able to DOS my Raspberry Pi. Maybe you could break out > of simh and start using the Pi itself to mine bitcoins. > > That could cost me like literally dozens of cents worth of power. > > I suppose I should be a little concerned that once you've broken out of the > simulation into the Pi, then you are on a machine which has access to the > rest of my network. In which case, assuming you can exploit a remote > vulnerability (or crack a credential), then, yeah, you could indeed > somewhat inconvenience me. > > Well, here's hoping that there is lower-hanging fruit with more compute > power out there. I suspect there is. > > Adam > Thanks for the chortle in the AM here in IA.? My apologies for not sending a note of appreciation last night.? I immediately logged into Unix v7 as dmr and played around for a bit.? (no idea how to break out of the spell command without any arguments, but that's my bad).? I'm a CISO equivalent in my day job, and I didn't see any issue with your initial email. Jim From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Thu Aug 8 05:40:05 2019 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 06:40:05 -0400 Subject: looking for a 7-track reel tape controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The same is true with the TU20. > On Aug 7, 2019, at 10:06 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > > I think you could change heads in a TU10 and add or take out a few boards. I've worked on 7 and 9 track versions in the day. > >> On Wed, Aug 7, 2019 at 6:43 PM Michael Thompson via cctech wrote: >> > >> > thanks a lot for your hint to the DEC controller. I wasn't aware that the >> > TM11, TMA11 and TMB11 controllers can handle 9-track as well as 7-track >> > NRZI-encoded tape drives. However, all these controllers seem to be very >> > rare in the public out there. Not too surprising considering that DEC TU >> > and TS tape drives themselves are rare and that 7-track tape drives were >> > soon replaced by 9-track tape technology in the early days. >> > >> > With best regards, >> > Pierre >> > >> >> The TC58 Magnetic Tape Controller for the PDP-8 and the TC59 for the PDP-9 >> can be connected to both 7-track and 9-track drives. The TU20 drive on the >> PDP-9 at the RICM is a 7-track drive. The only difference between the >> 7-track and 9-track versions of the TU20 is the tape head. All of the tape >> drive electronics is the same for both versions. >> >> -- >> Michael Thompson From cctalk at ibmjunkman.com Thu Aug 8 12:56:23 2019 From: cctalk at ibmjunkman.com (cctalk) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 10:56:23 -0700 Subject: I need a keypunch (briefly) Message-ID: The Computer Museum of America in Roswell GA (400 miles) has 2 working 029s. Don?t know the condition of the ribbons. Contact Lonnie Simms via info at computermuseumofamerica.org. Tell him his CA IBM benefactor sent you. I hope you have black cards. If not, let me know. Otherwise you could try http://www.kloth.net/services/cardpunch.php and print the JPEG on heavy stock. Donald Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 18:10:32 -0400 From: Chip Davis To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: I need a keypunch (briefly) Message-ID: <5c1abccc-5548-057d-fa0c-0b6be9d0c2c8 at aresti.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed I was referred to this group by dave.g4ugm at gmail.com who thought you might be able to help me. I need to punch a half-dozen datacards for an award for a retired IBMer. Anyone know where I can find a working 026/029/129 within 300 miles of Raleigh, NC? Many thanks for any pointers. Chip Davis chip at aresti.com +1.919.271.2582 From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Aug 8 13:08:52 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 14:08:52 -0400 Subject: I need a keypunch (briefly) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5736DCF9-19F3-42C9-87D0-C7B909B72C08@comcast.net> > On Aug 8, 2019, at 1:56 PM, cctalk via cctalk wrote: > > The Computer Museum of America in Roswell GA (400 miles) has 2 working 029s. Don?t know the condition of the ribbons. Contact Lonnie Simms via info at computermuseumofamerica.org. Tell him his CA IBM benefactor sent you. I hope you have black cards. If not, let me know. > > Otherwise you could try http://www.kloth.net/services/cardpunch.php and print the JPEG on heavy stock. Neat. It even knows the punch codes for lower case letters (in the IBM EBCDIC code table). paul From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 8 13:20:41 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 12:20:41 -0600 Subject: I'm sharing a toy In-Reply-To: <189B60A4-3A2E-4E20-A063-8A00ECC84D37@kerberos.davies.net.au> References: <189B60A4-3A2E-4E20-A063-8A00ECC84D37@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: On 8/8/2019 7:59 AM, Huw Davies via cctalk wrote: > > >> On 8 Aug 2019, at 15:18, Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: >> >> https://mvsevm.fsf.net >> >> Currently, the TOPS-10 guest account (42,42) and the Unix v7 account dmr have no passwords. > > Just logged into TOPS-10 for the first time in many years! Far too much brain bit rot but it will encourage me to build up my own RPi emulation setup! > > Thanks. Does the PI in use have good media storage device? I suspect TOPS and UNIX swap pages like mad. A little SD card might wear out in few weeks. Ben. From imp at bsdimp.com Thu Aug 8 13:26:42 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 12:26:42 -0600 Subject: I'm sharing a toy In-Reply-To: References: <189B60A4-3A2E-4E20-A063-8A00ECC84D37@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 12:20 PM ben via cctalk wrote: > On 8/8/2019 7:59 AM, Huw Davies via cctalk wrote: > > > > > >> On 8 Aug 2019, at 15:18, Adam Thornton via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >> https://mvsevm.fsf.net > >> > >> Currently, the TOPS-10 guest account (42,42) and the Unix v7 account > dmr have no passwords. > > > > Just logged into TOPS-10 for the first time in many years! Far too much > brain bit rot but it will encourage me to build up my own RPi emulation > setup! > > > > Thanks. > Does the PI in use have good media storage device? > I suspect TOPS and UNIX swap pages like mad. A little SD card might wear > out in few weeks. > Even the crappiest of crap SD cards these days aren't that fragile. You'd need to swap on the order of GB/s to wear it out that fast. Most of the SD cards can handle hundreds of full drive writes. At 128GB, you're looking at needing to generate about ~25TB of effective writes before you'd wear them out. Even with a crazy 10x write amp (typical is 2-3), there's no way you'd get that through an interface that's measured in the tens of MB/s. Warner Warner From imp at bsdimp.com Thu Aug 8 13:31:11 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 12:31:11 -0600 Subject: I'm sharing a toy In-Reply-To: References: <189B60A4-3A2E-4E20-A063-8A00ECC84D37@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 12:26 PM Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 12:20 PM ben via cctalk > wrote: > >> On 8/8/2019 7:59 AM, Huw Davies via cctalk wrote: >> > >> > >> >> On 8 Aug 2019, at 15:18, Adam Thornton via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> https://mvsevm.fsf.net >> >> >> >> Currently, the TOPS-10 guest account (42,42) and the Unix v7 account >> dmr have no passwords. >> > >> > Just logged into TOPS-10 for the first time in many years! Far too much >> brain bit rot but it will encourage me to build up my own RPi emulation >> setup! >> > >> > Thanks. >> Does the PI in use have good media storage device? >> I suspect TOPS and UNIX swap pages like mad. A little SD card might wear >> out in few weeks. >> > > Even the crappiest of crap SD cards these days aren't that fragile. You'd > need to swap on the order of GB/s to wear it out that fast. Most of the SD > cards can handle hundreds of full drive writes. At 128GB, you're looking at > needing to generate about ~25TB of effective writes before you'd wear them > out. Even with a crazy 10x write amp (typical is 2-3), there's no way you'd > get that through an interface that's measured in the tens of MB/s. > Although to be fair, 50MB/s for 5 days would generate that. I doubt these old emulated systems could generate that much write traffic via SIMH on a sustained basis. And if the SD card is any good at all, it will be at least 10x better than that.... Assuming anything decent, and a 5MB/s write rate, you're looking at years to wear it out with extremely heavy use. Warner From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Thu Aug 8 13:33:50 2019 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 13:33:50 -0500 Subject: I'm sharing a toy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0444EF69-5BC1-4A18-997E-321BBE86748A@lunar-tokyo.net> > On Aug 8, 2019, at 12:21 PM, Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: > > Yeah, you might be able to DOS my Raspberry Pi. Maybe you could break out > of simh and start using the Pi itself to mine bitcoins. I know you?re joking around, but IoT gadgets and other small devices are being exploited right now to great effectiveness as attack amplifiers or penetration aids. They won?t mine coins on your Pi, or attack you directly, but they _will_ use your Pi as a means to attack others - for which you can be held legally liable in some jurisdictions. And it won?t be a human who makes the call, it will be an automated attack bot that will slam every port it can attempting to find something its masters can abuse to make money. I ran public instances of TOPS-20 and ITS for years, and eventually had to give up due to lack of interest by anyone except chinese bots using up all the TCP connections with (usually Cisco) exploit attempts. This is, after all, The Internet, and The Internet ruins all things as quickly as possible. This is why we can?t have nice things. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 8 13:51:45 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 12:51:45 -0600 Subject: I'm sharing a toy In-Reply-To: References: <189B60A4-3A2E-4E20-A063-8A00ECC84D37@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: On 8/8/2019 12:26 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > Even the crappiest of crap SD cards these days aren't that fragile. > You'd need to swap on the order of GB/s to wear it out that fast. Most > of the SD cards can handle hundreds of full drive writes. At 128GB, > you're looking at needing to generate about ~25TB of effective writes > before you'd wear them out. Even with a crazy 10x write amp (typical is > 2-3), there's no way you'd get that through an interface that's measured > in the tens of MB/s. I would agree if it was doing a whole disk. A swap or scatch space on magnetic media got used alot back then. Time sharing back then was having 16KW and swapping pages back and forth from rotating media while reading or writing cards. > Warner I am not sure of the memory on a PI,but having a good block cache for the swap segments on disk would useful. Well the CPU is the easy part. Now what about the front panel. :) Ben. From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Aug 8 14:00:02 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 15:00:02 -0400 Subject: I'm sharing a toy In-Reply-To: <0444EF69-5BC1-4A18-997E-321BBE86748A@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <0444EF69-5BC1-4A18-997E-321BBE86748A@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: > On Aug 8, 2019, at 2:33 PM, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk wrote: > > > >> On Aug 8, 2019, at 12:21 PM, Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: >> >> Yeah, you might be able to DOS my Raspberry Pi. Maybe you could break out >> of simh and start using the Pi itself to mine bitcoins. > > I know you?re joking around, but IoT gadgets and other small devices are being exploited right now to great effectiveness as attack amplifiers or penetration aids. But if the only public port into the device is a TOPS-10 CLI, that's going to stop your typical criminal pretty well. paul From imp at bsdimp.com Thu Aug 8 14:04:26 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 13:04:26 -0600 Subject: I'm sharing a toy In-Reply-To: References: <189B60A4-3A2E-4E20-A063-8A00ECC84D37@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 12:51 PM ben wrote: > On 8/8/2019 12:26 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > Even the crappiest of crap SD cards these days aren't that fragile. > > You'd need to swap on the order of GB/s to wear it out that fast. Most > > of the SD cards can handle hundreds of full drive writes. At 128GB, > > you're looking at needing to generate about ~25TB of effective writes > > before you'd wear them out. Even with a crazy 10x write amp (typical is > > 2-3), there's no way you'd get that through an interface that's measured > > in the tens of MB/s. > > I would agree if it was doing a whole disk. > A swap or scatch space on magnetic media got used alot back then. > Time sharing back then was having 16KW and swapping pages back and forth > from rotating media while reading or writing cards. > The NAND pool in the SD cards is rotated to do wear-leveling and to cope with the insanely large erase block sizes that we have these days, so the particular LBAs being re-scribbled doesn't matter, though you might get a lot of write-amp from doing 512-byte I/O when the underlying page size is 4kb or 16kb. Even so, it would take a lot... > > Warner > > I am not sure of the memory on a PI,but having a good block cache > for the swap segments on disk would useful. > Agreed. I don't think SIMH forces synchronous writes... A good buffer cache will mitigate this. I tried to wear our old CF cards w/o disabling the buffer cache and found it was impossible... But with disabling it, it was just barely possible, if you did the right things... > Well the CPU is the easy part. Now what about the front panel. :) > This is purely the dialup experience, eh? :) Warner > Ben. > > > > From mbbrutman at brutman.com Thu Aug 8 15:49:21 2019 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael Brutman) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 13:49:21 -0700 Subject: VCF West 2019 Visitor Survey Message-ID: Before VCF West 2019 becomes too much of a pleasant memory ... We'd like to hear from you! This should take less than two minutes: http://vcfed.org/vcf-survey Tell us what we did well and where we need improvement. Or contact me directly. We're not fussy, and we want to do better at our future events. Mike From guykd at optusnet.com.au Thu Aug 8 17:19:07 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2019 08:19:07 +1000 Subject: I'm sharing a toy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190809081907.0124cdb8@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 10:18 PM 7/08/2019 -0700, you wrote: >https://mvsevm.fsf.net >Adam WELCOME TO THE ANCIENT COMPUTER MVSEVM All systems are emulated, on Raspberry Pi and Linux. 1: Multics MR 12.6f (Honeywell 6800 DPS-8/M) 2: TOPS-20 7.1 (PDP-10 KL-10) 3: TOPS-10 7.03 (PDP-10 KA-10) 4: ITS (PDP-10 KA-10) 5: OpenVMS 7.3 (MicroVAX 3900) 6: Unix v7 (PDP-11/70) 7: Unix 2.11bsd (PDP-11/70) That's very nice. Though atm my interests are web front-end dev related, and so for me the nicest part is this: gotty-bundle.js 325 KB Minified xterm.css 35 KB >From xterm.css : * xterm.js: xterm, in the browser * https://github.com/chjj/term.js * Originally forked from (with the author's permission): * Fabrice Bellard's javascript vt100 for jslinux: * http://bellard.org/jslinux/ https://github.com/chjj/term.js term.js ( Latest commit Jun 6, 2016 ) A full xterm clone written in javascript. Used by tty.js. --> https://github.com/chjj/tty.js This project is no longer maintained. For a maintained fork take a look at sourcelair/xterm.js. --> https://github.com/sourcelair/xterm.js A fascinating rabbit hole! Guy From fmc at reanimators.org Thu Aug 8 18:29:08 2019 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 16:29:08 -0700 Subject: I'm sharing a toy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Aug 7, 2019, at 22:18, Adam Thornton wrote: > > https://mvsevm.fsf.net > > Currently, the TOPS-10 guest account (42,42) and the Unix v7 account dmr have no passwords. > > Please treat the dmr account respectfully. > > I will get to account requests?eventually, probably. TImeliness is not guaranteed. All systems are hosted on Raspberry Pis (the 36-bit ones on a Pi 3B+ and the 16-bit and 32-bit ones on a Pi 2B+) on Debian Buster. Absolutely no guarantee of availability or usability is made. Thanks. I had a brief look around the 36-bit systems last night. One of my tests for a Pi 3 B was to build and run the SIMH HP3000 on it. Being able to do that means having git to get the SIMH source, gcc and gmake to build, (curl|wget) to get the MPE V/R bits, unzip to extract. The prerequisites were what I wanted for other Pi stuff and this was a good workflow to find out what was missing from the Jessie Lite image (yes it was that long ago, in Stretch and Buster I think I have found all those packages are already present). One of the things I have found with the Pi is, the low end micro SD cards (P*tr**t and K*ngst*n would match the ones that did this) are lossy storage. It?s not that they wear out, it?s that they lose bits. Switching power supply to one sufficient for the Pi did not solve this problem, they continued to lose bits. -Frank McConnell From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Aug 8 18:52:34 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 16:52:34 -0700 Subject: I'm sharing a toy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Aug 8, 2019, at 4:29 PM, Frank McConnell via cctalk wrote: > > On Aug 7, 2019, at 22:18, Adam Thornton wrote: >> >> https://mvsevm.fsf.net >> >> Currently, the TOPS-10 guest account (42,42) and the Unix v7 account dmr have no passwords. >> >> Please treat the dmr account respectfully. >> >> I will get to account requests?eventually, probably. TImeliness is not guaranteed. All systems are hosted on Raspberry Pis (the 36-bit ones on a Pi 3B+ and the 16-bit and 32-bit ones on a Pi 2B+) on Debian Buster. Absolutely no guarantee of availability or usability is made. > > Thanks. I had a brief look around the 36-bit systems last night. > > One of my tests for a Pi 3 B was to build and run the SIMH HP3000 on it. Being able to do that means having git to get the SIMH source, gcc and gmake to build, (curl|wget) to get the MPE V/R bits, unzip to extract. The prerequisites were what I wanted for other Pi stuff and this was a good workflow to find out what was missing from the Jessie Lite image (yes it was that long ago, in Stretch and Buster I think I have found all those packages are already present). > > One of the things I have found with the Pi is, the low end micro SD cards (P*tr**t and K*ngst*n would match the ones that did this) are lossy storage. It?s not that they wear out, it?s that they lose bits. Switching power supply to one sufficient for the Pi did not solve this problem, they continued to lose bits. > > -Frank McConnell With my RPi2B, my wife tripped a breaker, and scrambled the card. That was a Lexar SD card. Of course that was also one of the critical systems in my VMS Cluster. I?ve moved to VM?s, on my VMware cluster, for all my OpenVMS systems. My one Rpi3B runs Multics, the other TOPS-20. I?m thinking about rebuilding the RPi2B as a PDP-11. Zane From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Aug 8 18:53:29 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 16:53:29 -0700 Subject: I'm sharing a toy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <74A7032E-6A21-4C61-9EC0-81D0EA3CFB80@avanthar.com> > On Aug 7, 2019, at 10:18 PM, Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: > > https://mvsevm.fsf.net > > Currently, the TOPS-10 guest account (42,42) and the Unix v7 account dmr have no passwords. > > Please treat the dmr account respectfully. > > I will get to account requests?eventually, probably. TImeliness is not guaranteed. All systems are hosted on Raspberry Pis (the 36-bit ones on a Pi 3B+ and the 16-bit and 32-bit ones on a Pi 2B+) on Debian Buster. Absolutely no guarantee of availability or usability is made. > > Adam > I?m curious, are you doing all that with just two Raspberry Pi?s, or do you have one per each system you?re emulating? Zane From fmc at reanimators.org Thu Aug 8 19:52:38 2019 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 17:52:38 -0700 Subject: I'm sharing a toy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9874AAC5-B4EF-4895-9570-4D18758D0D70@reanimators.org> On Aug 8, 2019, at 16:52, Zane Healy wrote: > > On Aug 8, 2019, at 4:29 PM, Frank McConnell via cctalk wrote: >> One of the things I have found with the Pi is, the low end micro SD cards (P*tr**t and K*ngst*n would match the ones that did this) are lossy storage. It?s not that they wear out, it?s that they lose bits. Switching power supply to one sufficient for the Pi did not solve this problem, they continued to lose bits. >> >> -Frank McConnell > > With my RPi2B, my wife tripped a breaker, and scrambled the card. That was a Lexar SD card. Of course that was also one of the critical systems in my VMS Cluster. I?ve moved to VM?s, on my VMware cluster, for all my OpenVMS systems. My one Rpi3B runs Multics, the other TOPS-20. I?m thinking about rebuilding the RPi2B as a PDP-11. No interruptions of power to running systems, just cards left idle after shutdown -P for some days/weeks/months while I worked on others. At first I was running from a weak (5V 1A) power supply and thought that cute lightning-bolt icon on-screen was its way of indicating that it was writing to its flash storage. I switched to a recommended power supply that met the stated requirements and still had data loss in further experiments with (freshly re-installed and left idle) cards that had lost bits previously. -Frank McConnell From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Thu Aug 8 22:32:16 2019 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 22:32:16 -0500 Subject: I'm sharing a toy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <66eb6d08-74a1-feca-d692-4b1ad690cf2c@gmail.com> Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> On Aug 8, 2019, at 4:29 PM, Frank McConnell via cctalk wrote: >> >> On Aug 7, 2019, at 22:18, Adam Thornton wrote: >>> https://mvsevm.fsf.net >>> >>> Currently, the TOPS-10 guest account (42,42) and the Unix v7 account dmr have no passwords. >>> >>> Please treat the dmr account respectfully. >>> >>> I will get to account requests?eventually, probably. TImeliness is not guaranteed. All systems are hosted on Raspberry Pis (the 36-bit ones on a Pi 3B+ and the 16-bit and 32-bit ones on a Pi 2B+) on Debian Buster. Absolutely no guarantee of availability or usability is made. >> Thanks. I had a brief look around the 36-bit systems last night. >> >> One of my tests for a Pi 3 B was to build and run the SIMH HP3000 on it. Being able to do that means having git to get the SIMH source, gcc and gmake to build, (curl|wget) to get the MPE V/R bits, unzip to extract. The prerequisites were what I wanted for other Pi stuff and this was a good workflow to find out what was missing from the Jessie Lite image (yes it was that long ago, in Stretch and Buster I think I have found all those packages are already present). >> >> One of the things I have found with the Pi is, the low end micro SD cards (P*tr**t and K*ngst*n would match the ones that did this) are lossy storage. It?s not that they wear out, it?s that they lose bits. Switching power supply to one sufficient for the Pi did not solve this problem, they continued to lose bits. >> >> -Frank McConnell > With my RPi2B, my wife tripped a breaker, and scrambled the card. That was a Lexar SD card. Of course that was also one of the critical systems in my VMS Cluster. I?ve moved to VM?s, on my VMware cluster, for all my OpenVMS systems. My one Rpi3B runs Multics, the other TOPS-20. I?m thinking about rebuilding the RPi2B as a PDP-11. > > Zane I've had two SD card failures in RPis that were continuously on in the last two years.? One was my appletalk disk server; the other one was a general NFS server that I used to backup stuff from my Sun+older unix machines with looming scsi HD failures.? Kingston and Sandisk.? I should migrate to SCSI2SD, but, this past experience makes me think that the same failure mode would remain in place. Perhaps using an USB HD for the served filesystems (or another ARM-based board with a SATA interface) would be better.? I do have a Hummingboard with SATA, but I was reserving it for other purposes. carlos. From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Thu Aug 8 18:11:05 2019 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2019 19:11:05 -0400 Subject: looking for a 7-track reel tape controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > The same is true for the HP 7970B tape drives, I even have a 9-track 7970B > that can be switched between 200, 556 and 800 bpi. I only need a 7-track > head... > > Christian > The DEC TU20 tape drive is an HP 7975A 200, 556, and 800 BPI transport with additional electronics to to connect it to the DEC tape drive bus. -- Michael Thompson From boris at summitclinic.com Fri Aug 9 01:52:44 2019 From: boris at summitclinic.com (Boris Gimbarzevsky) Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2019 22:52:44 -0800 Subject: I'm sharing a toy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20190809065251.3A88C4E6EF@mx2.ezwind.net> Thanks for putting it up. First time I've logged onto old Unix in decades (should try getting my copy of V6 up on simh). Have a couple of RasberryPi's kicking around that just fired up once to play with. Only part that simulation doesn't let you do is to connect up all sorts of lab hardware to A/D's and D/A's. Have lots of PDP-11 code that wrote in 1980's that can't use as no-one has written additions to PDP-11 emulators which will make one think one is dealing with 80's era data acquisition hardware and digital I/O boards which are far faster on modern microprocessors than there were then. >https://mvsevm.fsf.net > >Currently, the TOPS-10 guest account (42,42) and >the Unix v7 account dmr have no passwords. > >Please treat the dmr account respectfully. > >I will get to account requests eventually, >probably. TImeliness is not guaranteed. All >systems are hosted on Raspberry Pis (the 36-bit >ones on a Pi 3B+ and the 16-bit and 32-bit ones >on a Pi 2B+) on Debian Buster. Absolutely no >guarantee of availability or usability is made. > >Adam From athornton at gmail.com Fri Aug 9 02:59:11 2019 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2019 00:59:11 -0700 Subject: I'm sharing a toy In-Reply-To: <5d4d183e.1c69fb81.1d824.9440SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> References: <5d4d183e.1c69fb81.1d824.9440SMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <26B53B57-C6BF-46BA-B630-B03971EE9AC9@gmail.com> > On Aug 8, 2019, at 11:52 PM, Boris Gimbarzevsky wrote: > > Thanks for putting it up. First time I've logged onto old Unix in decades (should try getting my copy of V6 up on simh). > Have a couple of RasberryPi's kicking around that just fired up once to play with. Only part that simulation doesn't let you do is to connect up all sorts of lab hardware to A/D's and D/A's. Have lots of PDP-11 code that wrote in 1980's that can't use as no-one has written additions to PDP-11 emulators which will make one think one is dealing with 80's era data acquisition hardware and digital I/O boards which are far faster on modern microprocessors than there were then. Well, you say that, but?.. I just ordered https://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-11 , and it contains a prototyping area now so you can do stuff like https://obsolescence.wixsite.com/obsolescence/pidp-11-temp-barometer-hack . But, I mean?that?s a modern micro that looks to the PiDP-11 as if it were a Unibus peripheral, so it?s a decent model for what you want to do. And then there?s the Unibone?.http://retrocmp.com/projects/unibone if you want to drop some modern stuff into a real Unibus backplane. Adam From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Aug 9 08:35:12 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2019 09:35:12 -0400 Subject: I'm sharing a toy In-Reply-To: <20190809065251.3A88C4E6EF@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <20190809065251.3A88C4E6EF@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <3C534A82-F224-4759-83C0-142958821713@comcast.net> > On Aug 9, 2019, at 2:52 AM, Boris Gimbarzevsky via cctalk wrote: > > Thanks for putting it up. First time I've logged onto old Unix in decades (should try getting my copy of V6 up on simh). > Have a couple of RasberryPi's kicking around that just fired up once to play with. Only part that simulation doesn't let you do is to connect up all sorts of lab hardware to A/D's and D/A's. Have lots of PDP-11 code that wrote in 1980's that can't use as no-one has written additions to PDP-11 emulators which will make one think one is dealing with 80's era data acquisition hardware and digital I/O boards which are far faster on modern microprocessors than there were then. I don't think writing SIMH device emulators for things like the DEC Unibus D/A and A/D devices, or the DR11-A, would be at all hard. Neat idea, actually. It would let me run the "LABBASIC" I created as an honors project in college in 1974 -- a version of RT11 BASIC with added statements to drive those data acquisition devices and the KW-11/P programmable clock. paul From sales at elecplus.com Fri Aug 9 12:45:27 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2019 12:45:27 -0500 Subject: Sealed Sun memory modules Message-ID: <128f01d54eda$3b5682a0$b20387e0$@com> I am being offered some sealed Sun memory modules, PN 501-3050. These are 512MB compatible with: * Compatible with Sun Blade 1000 with 600MHz CPU, 1000 with 750MHz CPU, 1000 with 900MHz CPU, Blade 1000 Workstation, 2000 Blade 2000 with 900MHz CPU, Blade 2000 with 1.015GHz CPU, Blade 2000 with 1.05GHz CPU, Blade 2000 with 1.2GHz CPU, Blade 2000 Workstation, Fire 12K with CPU 900MHz, Fire 12K with CPU 1.05GHz, Fire 12K with CPU 1.2GHz, Fire 15K with CPU 900MHz, Fire 15K with CPU 1.05GHz, Fire 15K with CPU 1.2GHz, Sun Fire E20K, Fire E25K, 280R (A35), 3800, 4800 (750MHz), 4810, 6800, Netra 20 (N28). Apparently they must be installed in sets of 4. Is anyone interested in these? Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Fri Aug 9 13:35:37 2019 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2019 13:35:37 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Sealed Sun memory modules In-Reply-To: <128f01d54eda$3b5682a0$b20387e0$@com> References: <128f01d54eda$3b5682a0$b20387e0$@com> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Aug 2019, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > I am being offered some sealed Sun memory modules, PN 501-3050. These are > 512MB compatible with: > > * Compatible with Sun Blade 1000 with 600MHz CPU, 1000 with 750MHz > CPU, 1000 with 900MHz CPU, Blade 1000 Workstation, 2000 Blade 2000 with > 900MHz CPU, Blade 2000 with 1.015GHz CPU, Blade 2000 with 1.05GHz CPU, Blade > 2000 with 1.2GHz CPU, Blade 2000 Workstation, Fire 12K with CPU 900MHz, Fire > 12K with CPU 1.05GHz, Fire 12K with CPU 1.2GHz, Fire 15K with CPU 900MHz, > Fire 15K with CPU 1.05GHz, Fire 15K with CPU 1.2GHz, Sun Fire E20K, Fire > E25K, 280R (A35), 3800, 4800 (750MHz), 4810, 6800, Netra 20 (N28). > > Apparently they must be installed in sets of 4. Is anyone interested in > these? Hey Cindy; I have some Sun gear at home that I should probably have some spares for - what're they thinking they'd like for these? And thank you; - JP From sales at elecplus.com Fri Aug 9 14:18:25 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2019 14:18:25 -0500 Subject: Sealed Sun memory modules In-Reply-To: References: <128f01d54eda$3b5682a0$b20387e0$@com> Message-ID: <132b01d54ee7$381b1ad0$a8515070$@com> It would be nice if I were not dyslexic! Correct PN is 501-5030. Set of 4 is X7051A. There are 52 sealed new sticks. $10 per stick of memory. Cindy -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of JP Hindin via cctalk Sent: Friday, August 09, 2019 1:36 PM To: Electronics Plus via cctalk Subject: Re: Sealed Sun memory modules On Fri, 9 Aug 2019, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > I am being offered some sealed Sun memory modules, PN 501-3050. These are > 512MB compatible with: > > * Compatible with Sun Blade 1000 with 600MHz CPU, 1000 with 750MHz > CPU, 1000 with 900MHz CPU, Blade 1000 Workstation, 2000 Blade 2000 with > 900MHz CPU, Blade 2000 with 1.015GHz CPU, Blade 2000 with 1.05GHz CPU, Blade > 2000 with 1.2GHz CPU, Blade 2000 Workstation, Fire 12K with CPU 900MHz, Fire > 12K with CPU 1.05GHz, Fire 12K with CPU 1.2GHz, Fire 15K with CPU 900MHz, > Fire 15K with CPU 1.05GHz, Fire 15K with CPU 1.2GHz, Sun Fire E20K, Fire > E25K, 280R (A35), 3800, 4800 (750MHz), 4810, 6800, Netra 20 (N28). > > Apparently they must be installed in sets of 4. Is anyone interested in > these? Hey Cindy; I have some Sun gear at home that I should probably have some spares for - what're they thinking they'd like for these? And thank you; - JP --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From fritzm at fritzm.org Fri Aug 9 15:02:43 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2019 13:02:43 -0700 Subject: I'm sharing a toy In-Reply-To: <3C534A82-F224-4759-83C0-142958821713@comcast.net> References: <20190809065251.3A88C4E6EF@mx2.ezwind.net> <3C534A82-F224-4759-83C0-142958821713@comcast.net> Message-ID: <69BF652D-7394-4D4E-92E3-91AD413E395B@fritzm.org> > I don't think writing SIMH device emulators for things like the DEC Unibus D/A and A/D devices, or the DR11-A, would be at all hard. Yes; I have also thought it would be nice to have something like a DR11-C in simh, which could be configured to call into a dynamic library containing user code to emulate a custom connected device. --FritzM. From athornton at gmail.com Fri Aug 9 16:43:38 2019 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2019 14:43:38 -0700 Subject: Raspberry Pi write cycles Message-ID: I did have a case where the Pi I was using as secondary DNS/DHCP and as the secondary backup server (using USB spinning disk) destroyed its SD card. But then it turned out not to be the load at all. No matter what I ran on that Pi, it would corrupt its SD cards in a matter of weeks (the symptom was that the fourth bit of some bytes would just stick on). I assume it was just something broken in the Pi itself. I will state here, for the record, that if someone can spam effectively -- or be a botnet C&C node -- from TOPS/10 on a PDP-10 emulated on my Pi, my irritation at having my systems abused will probably be overwhelmed by my admiration at their dedication. (Traffic encryption via simh is incredibly painful. You have to turn login delay waaaaay up to run NetBSD on VAX on a Pi if you want to be able to ssh into it; the machine itself runs fine-ish, but the zillions of cycles to encrypt the traffic swamps it in no time.) And, you know, if you manage to cause my SD cards in those machines to fail, well, gosh, guess I'm out $10 or so for a new one. I'm not bothering to back up any of the stuff inside 'em, btw (so those of you using 'em, seriously, save your work elsewhere if it's precious--and, um, yeah, unless you're on OpenVMS, TOPS-20, or ITS, you don't have a TCP/IP stack and since you don't have a direct terminal interface into it, that probably means copying and pasting from the terminal session...but if you have something you really want off it that's larger than a couple of screens full, just write me a note and I can likely extract it for you more reasonably). Adam From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 9 17:24:04 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2019 16:24:04 -0600 Subject: Raspberry Pi write cycles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 8/9/2019 3:43 PM, Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: > And, you know, if you manage to cause my SD cards in those machines to > fail, well, gosh, guess I'm out $10 or so for a new one. I'm not bothering > to back up any of the stuff inside 'em, btw (so those of you using 'em, > seriously, save your work elsewhere if it's precious--and, um, yeah, unless > you're on OpenVMS, TOPS-20, or ITS, you don't have a TCP/IP stack and since > you don't have a direct terminal interface into it, that probably means > copying and pasting from the terminal session...but if you have something > you really want off it that's larger than a couple of screens full, just > write me a note and I can likely extract it for you more reasonably). > > Adam Have you looked at industrial sd cards? Ben. From ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org Fri Aug 9 17:34:52 2019 From: ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org (U'll Be King of the Stars) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2019 23:34:52 +0100 Subject: I'm sharing a toy In-Reply-To: <3C534A82-F224-4759-83C0-142958821713@comcast.net> References: <20190809065251.3A88C4E6EF@mx2.ezwind.net> <3C534A82-F224-4759-83C0-142958821713@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 09/08/2019 14:35, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > I don't think writing SIMH device emulators for things like the DEC Unibus D/A and A/D devices, or the DR11-A, would be at all hard. Sounds like a big challenge to me, but one that I would feel blessed with having on my agenda. If it's not hard for you then you're the kind of person I'd love to bump in to one day and end up having as a mentor :-) Andrew -- OpenPGP key: EB28 0338 28B7 19DA DAB0 B193 D21D 996E 883B E5B9 From jim at photojim.ca Fri Aug 9 18:03:00 2019 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2019 17:03:00 -0600 Subject: Raspberry Pi write cycles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <045001d54f06$987489b0$c95d9d10$@photojim.ca> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adam Thornton via cctalk Sent: Friday, August 9, 2019 3:44 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Raspberry Pi write cycles I did have a case where the Pi I was using as secondary DNS/DHCP and as the secondary backup server (using USB spinning disk) destroyed its SD card. But then it turned out not to be the load at all. No matter what I ran on that Pi, it would corrupt its SD cards in a matter of weeks (the symptom was that the fourth bit of some bytes would just stick on). I assume it was just something broken in the Pi itself. === The usual cause of this is an insufficiently beefy power supply. Every Pi that I ever had that ate SD cards ceased the habit when I put a better supply on it. Jim From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Fri Aug 9 20:39:06 2019 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2019 20:39:06 -0500 Subject: ADM-3A question Message-ID: <8AA97A55B0BD427BBA56C7381D887F75@CharlesHPLaptop> I bought an ADM-3A on ebay. The monitor and the circuit board/keyboard are from two different terminals - confirmed by hand-engraved serial numbers on the halves that don't match. Not to mention the two different case colors (pale blue top, blue bottom)! But it does have the lower-case option already installed :) Anyhow, there appears to be some breakdown of the CRT implosion plate silicone (screen rot). I've read about this problem before, so no real surprise It seems to be turning into brown "goop" which has run down onto the circuit board. Do I need to remove the goop before powering it up? Or is it nonconductive and hopefully noncorrosive, so it can wait until I remove the implosion plate and fix it? thanks Charles --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From useddec at gmail.com Fri Aug 9 21:53:36 2019 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2019 21:53:36 -0500 Subject: Help ID'ing a PDP-8/A Omnibus board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a bunch of Sunstrand and other NC/CNC boards here, but I thing they were labeled as Sunstrand. I don't remember ever seeing that one, and not sure if I have any for an 8. Most of the ones I have are Unibus. Paul On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 11:24 AM systems_glitch via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > From the layout and text font, I'd guess Sundstrand (CNC machine company) > but usually they put their logo/name on boards. I only have Unibus > Sundstrand boards in the shop at the moment, but none of them have that B > logo. Wouldn't be surprised if the B logo is from whoever made the boards, > as in the actual board fab house. > > Thanks, > Jonathan > > On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 12:07 PM Josh Dersch via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Hey all -- > > > > Got a PDP-8/A at VCFW this past weekend. It's an OEM model sans > programmer > > panel and was apparently used in a CNC application. It contains a board > > I'm trying to ID. It says "PDP-8/A CONSOLE ROM" on it and has no other > > identifying marks other than a logo on the back. See the pictures here: > > > > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/pdp-8/8aconsole1.jpg > > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/pdp-8/8aconsole2.jpg > > > > > > None of the braintrust at VCF were able to identify this mark. I'd guess > > that the board provides a simple ODT interface or something similar. The > > three ICs in the upper-left with the handwritten labels are 82S129 256x4 > > bipolar PROMs. They're not socketed so I haven't read them in yet. The > > 8/A's gonna need some TLC before I dare power it on... > > > > I'm mostly curious if anyone can ID the logo -- it would be interesting > to > > know who made this thing. > > > > Thanks! > > Josh > > > From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Fri Aug 9 23:05:46 2019 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 00:05:46 -0400 Subject: Pertec Interface Cable Length Message-ID: <48a88cf5-26d2-a16f-802f-ff7deb524175@comcast.net> I have a question about cable length - any electrical engineers in the house? Connected a Qualstar 1260 tape drive to an Emulex TC02 qbus tape controller in a pdp-11/53.? The interface is pertec with 2 50 pin cables. When I use a pair of short flat ribbon cables, 18 and 30 inches each, it works.? Under RT11 I can INIT, Copy, DUMP, do a Directory. It doesn't work when I use a pair of 5 foot long flat ribbon cables.? Are they too long?? Do I need twisted pair type of cable?? Is it possibly a termination problem? Doug From drb at msu.edu Fri Aug 9 23:38:11 2019 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 00:38:11 -0400 Subject: Pertec Interface Cable Length In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sat, 10 Aug 2019 00:05:46 -0400.) <48a88cf5-26d2-a16f-802f-ff7deb524175@comcast.net> References: <48a88cf5-26d2-a16f-802f-ff7deb524175@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20190810043811.352B639972@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > It doesn't work when I use a pair of 5 foot long flat ribbon cables. > Are they too long? Do I need twisted pair type of cable? Is it > possibly a termination problem? These cables typically were twisted pair, at least inside cabinets. (They might transition to round cables at bulkheads before routing to other cabinets.) I've seen them in lengths of like 20-30 feet. De From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Aug 9 23:47:14 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2019 22:47:14 -0600 Subject: Pertec Interface Cable Length In-Reply-To: <48a88cf5-26d2-a16f-802f-ff7deb524175@comcast.net> References: <48a88cf5-26d2-a16f-802f-ff7deb524175@comcast.net> Message-ID: <0d94ae13-87a7-ca02-ebd3-7ae22a0be8f3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 8/9/19 10:05 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote: > I have a question about cable length - any electrical engineers in the > house? I'm not one. > Connected a Qualstar 1260 tape drive to an Emulex TC02 qbus tape > controller in a pdp-11/53.? The interface is pertec with 2 50 pin cables. > > When I use a pair of short flat ribbon cables, 18 and 30 inches each, it > works.? Under RT11 I can INIT, Copy, DUMP, do a Directory. > > It doesn't work when I use a pair of 5 foot long flat ribbon cables. Are > they too long?? Do I need twisted pair type of cable?? Is it possibly a > termination problem? I've heard tell that flat ribbon cables that long don't work for much at any speed worth while. I've also heard tell that you can twist the cable and likely help it to the point that it might work. I'd try for a twist every 1?2 feed. I'd also likely try twisting the cables in the opposite direction. This opinion comes with a 100% money back guarantee. 100% is opinion, guaranteed! It's free to try, and it might work. So maybe give it a try. Here's hoping someone else with more information will respond too. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 10 00:47:19 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2019 22:47:19 -0700 Subject: Pertec Interface Cable Length In-Reply-To: <48a88cf5-26d2-a16f-802f-ff7deb524175@comcast.net> References: <48a88cf5-26d2-a16f-802f-ff7deb524175@comcast.net> Message-ID: <931d7667-cc74-c9e4-2dba-ca3a53c58380@sydex.com> On 8/9/19 9:05 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote: > I have a question about cable length - any electrical engineers in the > house? > > Connected a Qualstar 1260 tape drive to an Emulex TC02 qbus tape > controller in a pdp-11/53.? The interface is pertec with 2 50 pin cables. > > When I use a pair of short flat ribbon cables, 18 and 30 inches each, it > works.? Under RT11 I can INIT, Copy, DUMP, do a Directory. > > It doesn't work when I use a pair of 5 foot long flat ribbon cables.? > Are they too long?? Do I need twisted pair type of cable?? Is it > possibly a termination problem? 5 feet should be no problem--ISTR that Pertec specifies a maximum cable length of 20 ft. I use 10 foot cables routinely. The Pertec interface is basically open-collector drivers into 220/330 ohms at the far end. I have a Qalstar 1260, but it's the 1260S, the SCSI version--and I rarely use it. Looking at the schematics of the similar Qualstar 1052, the output drivers are plain old LS240s; 24 ma totem-pole outputs. The usual practice is to use 7438s OC 48 ma outputs; it's certainly the case for Pertec formatters. So it could be that you're limited by the Qualstar design. Twisted flat cable might buy you some added distance or you could fabricate a "repeater" with real OC drivers to put between the drive and the controller to extend the length. FWIW, Chuck From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Aug 10 03:57:18 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 09:57:18 +0100 Subject: Pertec Interface Cable Length In-Reply-To: <48a88cf5-26d2-a16f-802f-ff7deb524175@comcast.net> References: <48a88cf5-26d2-a16f-802f-ff7deb524175@comcast.net> Message-ID: <0cf801d54f59$9d3641c0$d7a2c540$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech On Behalf Of Douglas Taylor > via cctech > Sent: 10 August 2019 05:06 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: Pertec Interface Cable Length > > I have a question about cable length - any electrical engineers in the house? Its electronics, rather than electrical engineering. Electrical Engineering is power distribution. > > Connected a Qualstar 1260 tape drive to an Emulex TC02 qbus tape controller > in a pdp-11/53. The interface is pertec with 2 50 pin cables. > > When I use a pair of short flat ribbon cables, 18 and 30 inches each, it > works. Under RT11 I can INIT, Copy, DUMP, do a Directory. > So the hardware is good. > It doesn't work when I use a pair of 5 foot long flat ribbon cables. Are they too > long? Do I need twisted pair type of cable? Is it possibly a termination > problem? I can't see 5 foot being too long for data from a tape, the data rates aren't huge. At most you have added 10ns to the delay times. On the other hand I have been wrong in the past and could be wrong again.. I assume you have checked the cables. Ribbon cables are prone to come loose from the IDC pins if it?s a IDC connector, and if soldered can break.... > > Doug > Dave G4UGM From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sat Aug 10 10:33:56 2019 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 10:33:56 -0500 Subject: ADM-3A question Message-ID: I decided just to fire it up and see if anything blew... it issued the expected beep as it came up. Set the switch to half-duplex and it does actually echo bell (Ctrl-G) and I can see the screen moving as I type! But there is some kind of garbage every other row, although the cursor moves and the screen will "clear" (except for the 12 rows of garbage). Power supply is 5.11 volts. So far so good. Unfortunately the screen rot is even worse than I thought - the PVA layer is so opaque and bubbled it looked like cottage cheese once removed, and I can't make out what characters are on the CRT... I took the monitor out (very easy disassembly). I didn't even have to use a heat gun or a hot wire, just started at one corner, applied a steady and gentle pull, and it came off in one sheet with a giant sucking sound. That oily mess took a while to clean up. I also scrubbed off the black anti-reflective coating since it was significantly scratched and peeled anyway. Now waiting for the bead of clear silicone (around the outside of the plate only) to cure. I'll make sure it's air tight so no black dust will get in there by electrostatic attraction. I can fix the RAM problem once I can see what is actually on the screen! ;) Also the wire bracket with threaded ends that holds the flyback to the monitor chassis is missing one end entirely, so I need to fix that (keep the core halves firmly together). Looks like I didn't get TOO bad a deal for $200 shipped, especially with upper-case installed. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Aug 10 12:08:27 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 10:08:27 -0700 Subject: ADM-3A question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 8/10/19 8:33 AM, Charles via cctalk wrote: > I also scrubbed off the black anti-reflective coating since it was > significantly scratched and peeled anyway. um.. you didn't remove the aquadag from the outside of the crt, did you? From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sat Aug 10 13:30:05 2019 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 13:30:05 -0500 Subject: ADM-3A question Message-ID: >On 8/10/19 8:33 AM, Charles via cctalk wrote: >> I also scrubbed off the black anti-reflective coating since it was >> significantly scratched and peeled anyway. > >um.. you didn't remove the aquadag from the outside of the crt, did you? No worries Al, I got my EE in '81 back when CRTs were still in use and I know how they work ;) I was referring to the translucent stuff on the (removable) glass implosion plate itself, designed to reduce light reflection, not the 'dag. Some say that black sheer pantyhose can be used to recreate the same effect, or a 3M Privacy Screen. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Aug 10 15:11:00 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 20:11:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: ADM-3A question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <211194028.2761230.1565467860497@mail.yahoo.com> upper? case is? default...? ?do you mean lower case?? Ed# In a message dated 8/10/2019 8:34:06 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: I can fix the RAM problem once I can see what is actually on the screen! ;)Also the wire bracket with threaded ends that holds the flyback to the monitor chassis is missing one end entirely, so I need to fix that (keep the core halves firmly together).Looks like I didn't get TOO bad a deal for $200 shipped, especially with upper-case installed. From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Aug 10 19:01:49 2019 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 20:01:49 -0400 Subject: ADM-3A question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The clearing of the deteriorating adhesive is documented here and there on the web, use heat to separate the outer from the inner screen. Remove the inner screen and clean the gunk from the inside of the outer screen...in summary ...here are some details http://www.retrotechnology.com/restore/adm3a_nick.html On Sat, Aug 10, 2019, 2:30 PM Charles via cctalk wrote: > >On 8/10/19 8:33 AM, Charles via cctalk wrote: > >> I also scrubbed off the black anti-reflective coating since it was > >> significantly scratched and peeled anyway. > > > >um.. you didn't remove the aquadag from the outside of the crt, did you? > > No worries Al, I got my EE in '81 back when CRTs were still in use and I > know how they work ;) > > I was referring to the translucent stuff on the (removable) glass > implosion > plate itself, designed to reduce light reflection, not the 'dag. > Some say that black sheer pantyhose can be used to recreate the same > effect, > or a 3M Privacy Screen. > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > From imp at bsdimp.com Sat Aug 10 20:01:41 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 19:01:41 -0600 Subject: ADM-3A question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 10, 2019, 6:02 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > The clearing of the deteriorating adhesive is documented here and there on > the web, use heat to separate the outer from the inner screen. Remove the > inner screen and clean the gunk from the inside of the outer screen...in > summary ...here are some details > http://www.retrotechnology.com/restore/adm3a_nick.html It's a common problem in monitors in general from that era. I have one monitor for my Rainbow with the pox (and a bad csp so the pic is bad). I have another with just a bad cap or three but bo pox marks. I'd fix both but the high voltage scares me... Warner > > On Sat, Aug 10, 2019, 2:30 PM Charles via cctalk > wrote: > > > >On 8/10/19 8:33 AM, Charles via cctalk wrote: > > >> I also scrubbed off the black anti-reflective coating since it was > > >> significantly scratched and peeled anyway. > > > > > >um.. you didn't remove the aquadag from the outside of the crt, did you? > > > > No worries Al, I got my EE in '81 back when CRTs were still in use and I > > know how they work ;) > > > > I was referring to the translucent stuff on the (removable) glass > > implosion > > plate itself, designed to reduce light reflection, not the 'dag. > > Some say that black sheer pantyhose can be used to recreate the same > > effect, > > or a 3M Privacy Screen. > > > > > > --- > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > > > From barythrin at gmail.com Sat Aug 10 23:41:25 2019 From: barythrin at gmail.com (John Herron) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 23:41:25 -0500 Subject: Raspberry Pi write cycles In-Reply-To: <045001d54f06$987489b0$c95d9d10$@photojim.ca> References: <045001d54f06$987489b0$c95d9d10$@photojim.ca> Message-ID: Ditto on Pi taking more amps than advertised. Another catch though are counterfeit SD cards. I only recently learned about them from a friend and YouTube video but they can get into online stores sometimes without the seller even knowing. I ended up finding two of mine bought from ham radio expo are counterfeit. They were labelled 32GB and generic/bulk packaging. However any more than 8GB will be corrupt so they're really 8 and the other sectors will either be corrupt or overwrite the original sectors. It's interesting that it doesn't report errors so the OS is fine writing to the sectors. Only way to tell that I've seen I'd actually writing to full amount of data and confirming all the files are valid. On Fri, Aug 9, 2019, 6:19 PM Jim MacKenzie via cctalk wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adam > Thornton via cctalk > Sent: Friday, August 9, 2019 3:44 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Raspberry Pi write cycles > > I did have a case where the Pi I was using as secondary DNS/DHCP and as > the secondary backup server (using USB spinning disk) destroyed its SD card. > > But then it turned out not to be the load at all. No matter what I ran on > that Pi, it would corrupt its SD cards in a matter of weeks (the symptom > was that the fourth bit of some bytes would just stick on). I assume it > was just something broken in the Pi itself. > === > The usual cause of this is an insufficiently beefy power supply. Every Pi > that I ever had that ate SD cards ceased the habit when I put a better > supply on it. > > Jim > > From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Sat Aug 10 11:45:25 2019 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 12:45:25 -0400 Subject: Pertec Interface Cable Length In-Reply-To: <0cf801d54f59$9d3641c0$d7a2c540$@gmail.com> References: <48a88cf5-26d2-a16f-802f-ff7deb524175@comcast.net> <0cf801d54f59$9d3641c0$d7a2c540$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 8/10/2019 4:57 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctech On Behalf Of Douglas Taylor >> via cctech >> Sent: 10 August 2019 05:06 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts >> Subject: Pertec Interface Cable Length >> >> I have a question about cable length - any electrical engineers in the house? > Its electronics, rather than electrical engineering. Electrical Engineering is power distribution. > >> Connected a Qualstar 1260 tape drive to an Emulex TC02 qbus tape controller >> in a pdp-11/53. The interface is pertec with 2 50 pin cables. >> >> When I use a pair of short flat ribbon cables, 18 and 30 inches each, it >> works. Under RT11 I can INIT, Copy, DUMP, do a Directory. >> > So the hardware is good. > >> It doesn't work when I use a pair of 5 foot long flat ribbon cables. Are they too >> long? Do I need twisted pair type of cable? Is it possibly a termination >> problem? > I can't see 5 foot being too long for data from a tape, the data rates aren't huge. At most you have added 10ns to the delay times. > On the other hand I have been wrong in the past and could be wrong again.. > > I assume you have checked the cables. Ribbon cables are prone to come loose from the IDC pins if it?s a IDC connector, and if soldered can break.... > >> Doug >> > Dave > G4UGM > I bought the long cables off ebay, so they have to be good? Right? I think the short cables came from a hamfest. The cables can be fairly long, I remember interfacing a TU80 to an Emulex QT14 (maybe) and the DEC cables were round and about 15 feet long.? And it worked. It was too late last night to begin checking the long cables for continuity, so I fired off the email instead thinking it may be a termination problem. Is it possible for the IDC and Card edge connectors to be put on wrong?? You would want pin 1 to map to pin 1, and so on. Doug From doc at vaxen.net Sat Aug 10 11:58:43 2019 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 11:58:43 -0500 Subject: AIX 5L/ia64 media? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <69311413-20b0-478e-35a3-16902778d7a1@vaxen.net> On 7/25/19 5:07 AM, Plamen Mihaylov via cctech wrote: > I know it was a short lived, but anyone has the installation cd or iso > image? I was actively involved with AIX as an IBM contractor till 2010 and as a hobbyist user since then. I've never heard even a rumor that such media exists, much less of anyone running it. The short version, from my perspective: I was teaching AIX admin courses at the time, and learned of the ia64 port when it was mentioned in some beta course material. I tried to track down any solid information with the AIX guys here in Austin and my Linux contacts in Durham NC. The official AIX for ia64 beta release, and later the licensed product in 2001/2002, wasn't available for customer installation, or as a media set for customer use. (IBM's later statements that AIX/ia64 was a request-for-quote only item supports that.) It wasn't even called AIX, at least within IBM, it was "Monterey". Further, IBM was not the sole marketing source for Monterey - Caldera/SCO Group and IBM were both marketing Monterey and paying each other royalties. Officially, that is. I've never found any record or rumor of SCO actually selling a copy. This last is mostly scuttlebutt and surmise, but anyone who has worked with IBM will recognize the mindset. When SCO started the infamous IBM lawsuit, I strongly suspect that IBM Legal scoured the planet for Monterey media and made it Gone. Doc From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Aug 10 12:03:10 2019 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 10:03:10 -0700 Subject: Pertec Interface Cable Length In-Reply-To: <0cf801d54f59$9d3641c0$d7a2c540$@gmail.com> References: <48a88cf5-26d2-a16f-802f-ff7deb524175@comcast.net> <0cf801d54f59$9d3641c0$d7a2c540$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <314DA2C9-CFC1-41CC-9707-51BA6D305A59@nf6x.net> > On Aug 10, 2019, at 1:57 AM, Dave Wade via cctech wrote: > >> >> I have a question about cable length - any electrical engineers in the house? > > Its electronics, rather than electrical engineering. Electrical Engineering is power distribution. At least in the US, "Electrical Engineering" applies to both subfields. Same university department, same degree name, same generic title of "electrical engineer"; just different specializations. I presume from your remark that an "electrical engineer" in the UK would be an engineer who works in the field of power generation and distribution. What term is used there for an engineer who works in fields of general electronics? -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 10 12:10:46 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 10:10:46 -0700 Subject: Pertec Interface Cable Length In-Reply-To: References: <48a88cf5-26d2-a16f-802f-ff7deb524175@comcast.net> <0cf801d54f59$9d3641c0$d7a2c540$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 8/10/19 9:45 AM, Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote: > I bought the long cables off ebay, so they have to be good? Right? I > think the short cables came from a hamfest. > > The cables can be fairly long, I remember interfacing a TU80 to an > Emulex QT14 (maybe) and the DEC cables were round and about 15 feet > long.? And it worked. Of course it did--the TU80 hews to the Pertec inteface spec. The Qualstar, as I observed, does not. It's basically "Pertec on the cheap". It might be interesting if someone with a Qualstar 1xxx series drive who's using 10' flat ribbon cables can report their success. I suspect that you'll hear crickets... The point of the Qualstar drives is that they were cheap--and the design reflects that. --Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Aug 10 12:22:08 2019 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 10:22:08 -0700 Subject: Pertec Interface Cable Length In-Reply-To: References: <48a88cf5-26d2-a16f-802f-ff7deb524175@comcast.net> <0cf801d54f59$9d3641c0$d7a2c540$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 10, 2019 at 9:46 AM Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote: > > I bought the long cables off ebay, so they have to be good? Right? I > think the short cables came from a hamfest. > > The cables can be fairly long, I remember interfacing a TU80 to an > Emulex QT14 (maybe) and the DEC cables were round and about 15 feet > long. And it worked. > > It was too late last night to begin checking the long cables for > continuity, so I fired off the email instead thinking it may be a > termination problem. > > Is it possible for the IDC and Card edge connectors to be put on wrong? > You would want pin 1 to map to pin 1, and so on. > > Doug If you build cables yourself without proper tools it might be easy to end up with bad results. It takes a fair amount of force to properly press a 50-pin connector on to a ribbon cable with even pressure. I picked up a used 3M Scotchflex 3316 manual hand press with locator plates for IDC and card edge connectors a few years back for a reasonable price. It made quick work of properly pressing 50-pin IDC connectors on to ribbon cables when I built some Pertec interface tape drive cables. I used some Amphenol Spectra-Strip Twist 'N' Flat ribbon cable and made a couple of cables that are about 8 feet long. I haven't had any problems using them between an Emulex QT13 controller and a Fujitsu M2444AC tape drive. From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Aug 10 12:56:25 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 12:56:25 -0500 Subject: Pertec Interface Cable Length In-Reply-To: <48a88cf5-26d2-a16f-802f-ff7deb524175@comcast.net> References: <48a88cf5-26d2-a16f-802f-ff7deb524175@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5D4F0549.7020405@pico-systems.com> On 08/09/2019 11:05 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote: > I have a question about cable length - any electrical > engineers in the house? > > Connected a Qualstar 1260 tape drive to an Emulex TC02 > qbus tape controller in a pdp-11/53. The interface is > pertec with 2 50 pin cables. > > When I use a pair of short flat ribbon cables, 18 and 30 > inches each, it works. Under RT11 I can INIT, Copy, DUMP, > do a Directory. > > It doesn't work when I use a pair of 5 foot long flat > ribbon cables. Are they too long? Do I need twisted pair > type of cable? Is it possibly a termination problem? > I have used cables about 20 feet long without trouble. The 2 50-pin cables is the Pertec formatted interface, which is really forgiving. Does you drive have terminators in both ends of the cable (both at the TC02 end and the drive end)? Now, I will mention that I have ONLY used twisted-pair ribbon cables with both flavors of interface, never straight ribbon cable. Jon From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Aug 10 13:29:19 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 19:29:19 +0100 Subject: Pertec Interface Cable Length In-Reply-To: <314DA2C9-CFC1-41CC-9707-51BA6D305A59@nf6x.net> References: <48a88cf5-26d2-a16f-802f-ff7deb524175@comcast.net> <0cf801d54f59$9d3641c0$d7a2c540$@gmail.com> <314DA2C9-CFC1-41CC-9707-51BA6D305A59@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <107001d54fa9$867c7b70$93757250$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech On Behalf Of Mark J. Blair via > cctech > Sent: 10 August 2019 18:03 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Pertec Interface Cable Length > > > > > On Aug 10, 2019, at 1:57 AM, Dave Wade via cctech > wrote: > > > >> > >> I have a question about cable length - any electrical engineers in the house? > > > > Its electronics, rather than electrical engineering. Electrical Engineering is > power distribution. > > At least in the US, "Electrical Engineering" applies to both subfields. Same > university department, same degree name, same generic title of "electrical > engineer"; just different specializations. I presume from your remark that an > "electrical engineer" in the UK would be an engineer who works in the field of > power generation and distribution. Yes.. > What term is used there for an engineer > who works in fields of general electronics? > An electronics engineer... > > -- > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > http://www.nf6x.net/ Dave G4UGM From pbirkel at gmail.com Sat Aug 10 13:56:48 2019 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 14:56:48 -0400 Subject: DEC VT20 boot device Message-ID: <040001d54fad$5d481800$17d84800$@gmail.com> The DEC VT20 terminal apparently included a PDP-11/05 with a direct mapped character display and was intended for text editing and typesetting. It seems to have been followed by the VT21, and then VT71/VT72, all three based on an LSI-11 (KD11-F). There's a real lack of documentation about these online, although the VT72 does have a print set. Apparently the VT20 used the M792-YK as its bootstrap; the Field Guide is silent regarding the boot device and M792 documentation stops earlier in the series of variants. According to the VT72 print set, it used the MRV11-VC (M9942-YC; described in the Field Guide as a "bootstrap/diagnostic module") for its bootstrap but is also silent regarding the boot device. In interestingly, the Field Guide also describes a MRV11-AA (M7942-TB) as a "M7942 with VT52 emulator, VT71 bootstrap". For async. communications the VT20 used a DL11-B (M7800 (EIA)). the VT72 a DLV11-F (M8028). Looking in a DEC "Options and Modules" listing I see VT20 bundles including Typeset-11 and DECset-11, and it appears that the VT20 could be configured with two displays & serial lines in a single 11/05. So . is the boot device in these systems the remote host via the serial line? What protocol would that have been? Something native to Typeset-11 and DECset-11? paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Aug 10 14:39:33 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 15:39:33 -0400 Subject: DEC VT20 boot device In-Reply-To: <040001d54fad$5d481800$17d84800$@gmail.com> References: <040001d54fad$5d481800$17d84800$@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Aug 10, 2019, at 2:56 PM, Paul Birkel via cctech wrote: > > The DEC VT20 terminal apparently included a PDP-11/05 with a direct mapped > character display and was intended for text editing and typesetting. It > seems to have been followed by the VT21, and then VT71/VT72, all three based > on an LSI-11 (KD11-F). There's a real lack of documentation about these > online, although the VT72 does have a print set. > ... > Looking in a DEC "Options and Modules" listing I see VT20 bundles including > Typeset-11 and DECset-11, and it appears that the VT20 could be configured > with two displays & serial lines in a single 11/05. > > So . is the boot device in these systems the remote host via the serial > line? What protocol would that have been? Something native to Typeset-11 > and DECset-11? I've never heard of DECset-11, but I worked on Typeset-11 1978-1980. The VT71 was the standard high end terminal for that system. I saw a VT20 sitting in a corner of our lab, but it was collecting dust and I never saw it operate, or connected to anything. As far as I know, no trace of Typeset-11 or TMS-11 (same software pretty much, ported to a stripped-down IAS instead of RSX-11/D) have been preserved. It seems plausible that the download protocol would be DDCMP MOP mode, since that was a standard protocol supported by DEC for this purpose. But it could have been something custom as well -- it's not something I was ever exposed to. Yes, as far as I know the 11/05 controller for the VT20 could drive two independent displays. The VT71 had a single display, the control processor was built into the terminal case. I'm fairly sure the VT71 software was derived from that of the VT20, but just how close they were I do not know. paul From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Sat Aug 10 17:03:05 2019 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 18:03:05 -0400 Subject: DEC VT20 boot device In-Reply-To: <040001d54fad$5d481800$17d84800$@gmail.com> References: <040001d54fad$5d481800$17d84800$@gmail.com> Message-ID: The VT20 design team was, iirc, John Kirk for the video, and me for the Unibus interface in the first version. The one with the slick one shown here, http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/vt20/vt20_2.jpg The /05 based package was after my time, I don't remember much about how it was deployed. The boot device called using the boot strap board was variable, and I don't recall anything beyond an RK05 based system (booting the RK) for the versions in the lab on 1-2 in the mill. It was for the Typeset 11 team, and then the TypeSet.DecSet team/Product line. bob On Sat, Aug 10, 2019 at 2:56 PM Paul Birkel via cctech wrote: > > The DEC VT20 terminal apparently included a PDP-11/05 with a direct mapped > character display and was intended for text editing and typesetting. It > seems to have been followed by the VT21, and then VT71/VT72, all three based > on an LSI-11 (KD11-F). There's a real lack of documentation about these > online, although the VT72 does have a print set. > > > > Apparently the VT20 used the M792-YK as its bootstrap; the Field Guide is > silent regarding the boot device and M792 documentation stops earlier in the > series of variants. > > > > According to the VT72 print set, it used the MRV11-VC (M9942-YC; described > in the Field Guide as a "bootstrap/diagnostic module") for its bootstrap but > is also silent regarding the boot device. In interestingly, the Field Guide > also describes a MRV11-AA (M7942-TB) as a "M7942 with VT52 emulator, VT71 > bootstrap". > > > > For async. communications the VT20 used a DL11-B (M7800 (EIA)). the VT72 a > DLV11-F (M8028). > > > > Looking in a DEC "Options and Modules" listing I see VT20 bundles including > Typeset-11 and DECset-11, and it appears that the VT20 could be configured > with two displays & serial lines in a single 11/05. > > > > So . is the boot device in these systems the remote host via the serial > line? What protocol would that have been? Something native to Typeset-11 > and DECset-11? > > > > paul > From cube1 at charter.net Sat Aug 10 22:01:32 2019 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 22:01:32 -0500 Subject: DEC VT20 boot device In-Reply-To: <040001d54fad$5d481800$17d84800$@gmail.com> References: <040001d54fad$5d481800$17d84800$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 8/10/2019 1:56 PM, Paul Birkel via cctech wrote: > The DEC VT20 terminal apparently included a PDP-11/05 with a direct mapped > character display and was intended for text editing and typesetting. It > seems to have been followed by the VT21, and then VT71/VT72, all three based > on an LSI-11 (KD11-F). There's a real lack of documentation about these > online, although the VT72 does have a print set. > > > > Apparently the VT20 used the M792-YK as its bootstrap; the Field Guide is > silent regarding the boot device and M792 documentation stops earlier in the > series of variants. > > > > According to the VT72 print set, it used the MRV11-VC (M9942-YC; described > in the Field Guide as a "bootstrap/diagnostic module") for its bootstrap but > is also silent regarding the boot device. In interestingly, the Field Guide > also describes a MRV11-AA (M7942-TB) as a "M7942 with VT52 emulator, VT71 > bootstrap". > > > > For async. communications the VT20 used a DL11-B (M7800 (EIA)). the VT72 a > DLV11-F (M8028). > > > > Looking in a DEC "Options and Modules" listing I see VT20 bundles including > Typeset-11 and DECset-11, and it appears that the VT20 could be configured > with two displays & serial lines in a single 11/05. > > > > So . is the boot device in these systems the remote host via the serial > line? What protocol would that have been? Something native to Typeset-11 > and DECset-11? > > > > paul > > I wonder if, maybe, it used the same protocol as the GT40, which also had a boot-over-serial line capability. JRJ From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Sat Aug 10 23:33:55 2019 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 00:33:55 -0400 Subject: Pertec Interface Cable Length In-Reply-To: <5D4F0549.7020405@pico-systems.com> References: <48a88cf5-26d2-a16f-802f-ff7deb524175@comcast.net> <5D4F0549.7020405@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <231ce89b-1eb3-4883-c68e-2b20edf53f99@comcast.net> On 8/10/2019 1:56 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 08/09/2019 11:05 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote: >> I have a question about cable length - any electrical engineers in >> the house? >> >> Connected a Qualstar 1260 tape drive to an Emulex TC02 qbus tape >> controller in a pdp-11/53.? The interface is pertec with 2 50 pin >> cables. >> >> When I use a pair of short flat ribbon cables, 18 and 30 inches each, >> it works.? Under RT11 I can INIT, Copy, DUMP, do a Directory. >> >> It doesn't work when I use a pair of 5 foot long flat ribbon cables.? >> Are they too long?? Do I need twisted pair type of cable?? Is it >> possibly a termination problem? >> > I have used cables about 20 feet long without trouble.? The 2 50-pin > cables is the Pertec formatted interface, which is really forgiving.? > Does you drive have terminators in both ends of the cable (both at the > TC02 end and the drive end)? > Now, I will mention that I have ONLY used twisted-pair ribbon cables > with both flavors of interface, never straight ribbon cable. > > Jon > > I haven't checked to see if there are terminators (Arnold the Terminator) on either end.? I did check the long cables for continuity and found no problems.? It may be an EMI problem. Would folding the excess cable up and covering with anti-static plastic help? Doug From pbirkel at gmail.com Sun Aug 11 00:46:30 2019 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 01:46:30 -0400 Subject: DEC VT20 boot device In-Reply-To: References: <040001d54fad$5d481800$17d84800$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <04b901d55008$20649200$612db600$@gmail.com> >-----Original Message----- >From: Jay Jaeger [mailto:cube1 at charter.net] >Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2019 11:02 PM >To: Paul Birkel; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts >Subject: Re: DEC VT20 boot device > >On 8/10/2019 1:56 PM, Paul Birkel via cctech wrote: >> The DEC VT20 terminal apparently included a PDP-11/05 with a direct mapped >> character display and was intended for text editing and typesetting. It >> seems to have been followed by the VT21, and then VT71/VT72, all three based >> on an LSI-11 (KD11-F). There's a real lack of documentation about these >> online, although the VT72 does have a print set. >> >> Apparently the VT20 used the M792-YK as its bootstrap; the Field Guide is >> silent regarding the boot device and M792 documentation stops earlier in the >> series of variants. >> ... >> So . is the boot device in these systems the remote host via the serial >> line? What protocol would that have been? Something native to Typeset-11 >> and DECset-11? >> >> paul > >I wonder if, maybe, it used the same protocol as the GT40, which also >had a boot-over-serial line capability. > >JRJ That's a promising lead! The GT40/42 User's Guide (EK-GT40-0P-002), Section 5.1 Communications Bootstrap/Read-Only Memory (ROM) describes a 256 word (GT40) and 512 word (GT42) ROM, however it appears that the bootstrap loader portion is intended to occupy 63 words which fits the M792 capacity (on the GT40 just the absolute addresses 15700-15776 (base 8)). Section 5.1.1 Bootstrap Loader describes the packed-and-serialized 6-bit "byte" stream, including some nice diagrams. Section 5.1.2 Character Encoding includes an illustrated example starting from a pictorialized 8-level paper tape. Appendix D has an annotated (and unexpurgated) program listing of the full GT40 ROM, including the loader and Figure D-1 Communications Bootstrap Loader Flow Diagram. Program comments suggest that a PDP-10 was expected as the host for a GT40. I imagine that the same expectation would have applied for the earlier VT20? Appendix E is similar, but for the "scrolling ROM - GT42" which appears to be a VT05 emulation It includes more conventional loaders as well: RF11, RK11, RC11, RP11, TC11, TM11, and paper tape. According to the program comments, "the fearsome power of the 11" is brought to bear :->. Both loaders are credited to Jack Burness. If I understand the listings correctly then in the smaller VT20 ROM, presumptively based on the same code, one would be expected to successfully fall off the end of the ROM into freshly loaded code that signals back to the host that a successful load has taken place. In the GT40 with the larger ROM that acknowledgement ("SENDIT") is part of the ROM itself. paul From lars at nocrew.org Sun Aug 11 02:02:43 2019 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 07:02:43 +0000 Subject: DEC VT20 boot device In-Reply-To: <04b901d55008$20649200$612db600$@gmail.com> (Paul Birkel via cctech's message of "Sun, 11 Aug 2019 01:46:30 -0400") References: <040001d54fad$5d481800$17d84800$@gmail.com> <04b901d55008$20649200$612db600$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7w36i8w5f0.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Paul Birkel wrote: >>I wonder if, maybe, it used the same protocol as the GT40, which also >>had a boot-over-serial line capability. > > Section 5.1.1 Bootstrap Loader describes the packed-and-serialized > 6-bit "byte" stream I have the GT40 boot ROM assembled on a PDP-10 host and used for booting by SIMH. There is also a GTLOAD program which translates a PDP-11 binary on the PDP-10 host and sends it to the GT40. From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sun Aug 11 08:54:19 2019 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 08:54:19 -0500 Subject: Test Message-ID: <31EF9EF8630A4455BD9146F491C05BE8@CharlesHPLaptop> Testing 1,2,3... my last couple of posts don't seem to be showing up? -Charles --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From w2hx at w2hx.com Sun Aug 11 08:07:15 2019 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 13:07:15 +0000 Subject: Pertec Interface Cable Length In-Reply-To: <231ce89b-1eb3-4883-c68e-2b20edf53f99@comcast.net> References: <48a88cf5-26d2-a16f-802f-ff7deb524175@comcast.net> <5D4F0549.7020405@pico-systems.com>, <231ce89b-1eb3-4883-c68e-2b20edf53f99@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1565528834881.53828@w2hx.com> >Would folding the excess cable up and covering with anti-static plastic help? unlikely. The typical problem is that the longer the cable, the higher the capacitance of the transmission line. Therefore you get a lot of problems with rising and trailing edges of the signals which can cause all kinds of problems if not terminated correctly. I agree with the previous suggestion to make sure all termination is in place. If you can also place a scope on one of the lines (with high impedance probe) you can see what the edges look like. ________________________________________ From: cctech on behalf of Douglas Taylor via cctech Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2019 12:33 AM To: Jon Elson; On-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Pertec Interface Cable Length On 8/10/2019 1:56 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 08/09/2019 11:05 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote: >> I have a question about cable length - any electrical engineers in >> the house? >> >> Connected a Qualstar 1260 tape drive to an Emulex TC02 qbus tape >> controller in a pdp-11/53. The interface is pertec with 2 50 pin >> cables. >> >> When I use a pair of short flat ribbon cables, 18 and 30 inches each, >> it works. Under RT11 I can INIT, Copy, DUMP, do a Directory. >> >> It doesn't work when I use a pair of 5 foot long flat ribbon cables. >> Are they too long? Do I need twisted pair type of cable? Is it >> possibly a termination problem? >> > I have used cables about 20 feet long without trouble. The 2 50-pin > cables is the Pertec formatted interface, which is really forgiving. > Does you drive have terminators in both ends of the cable (both at the > TC02 end and the drive end)? > Now, I will mention that I have ONLY used twisted-pair ribbon cables > with both flavors of interface, never straight ribbon cable. > > Jon > > I haven't checked to see if there are terminators (Arnold the Terminator) on either end. I did check the long cables for continuity and found no problems. It may be an EMI problem. Would folding the excess cable up and covering with anti-static plastic help? Doug From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sun Aug 11 08:58:27 2019 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 08:58:27 -0500 Subject: ADM-3A question Message-ID: Thanks Bill, I hadn?t seen that particular page. As I mentioned already, the formerly clear ?stuff? was so deteriorated I could just pull the glass plate off with gentle fingertip pressure. I ran a bead of clear silicone around the outside of the clean plate and CRT face and bonded them back together. Display looks great! However, I can now see that every other line, starting with line 2, is showing a full line of double quotes (0x22) instead of spaces (0x20). I read the circuit description and schematic, and it appears that bit ?2? is stuck high on the even-line RAM ? for some reason the designer decided to call the LSB bit 1 instead of bit 0. Typing (for example) ?abcdef123? shows the correct text on the blank odd lines, but on the even lines it echoes as ?cbcfef323?. Confirming that stuck bit. Looks like the RAM at location H15 should be the bad one... we?re having a heat wave and it?s too hot upstairs to work on it until tomorrow morning at the earliest. ETA: Now it's tomorrow morning and just cool enough (although 100% humidity, at least outside) but my replies aren't showing up in the archive - filtered somehow. Anyway. I did a bit more Googling and discovered that plain water dissolves the PVA goop just fine. No need to use a lot of expensive alcohol which seems to be a less effective solvent anyway! So I took the board out and scrubbed it in the kitchen sink with running warm water and an old toothbrush. Rinse with distilled water, now gently baking in the oven at around 140F to get the water out of the keyboard. Then onto the RAM replacement. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Sun Aug 11 09:25:05 2019 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 11:25:05 -0300 Subject: Test In-Reply-To: <31EF9EF8630A4455BD9146F491C05BE8@CharlesHPLaptop> References: <31EF9EF8630A4455BD9146F491C05BE8@CharlesHPLaptop> Message-ID: Test error. Please call helpdesk. 555-1212 Enviado do meu Tele-Movel On Sun, Aug 11, 2019, 10:54 Charles via cctalk wrote: > Testing 1,2,3... my last couple of posts don't seem to be showing up? > -Charles > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > From Rice43 at btinternet.com Sun Aug 11 09:26:01 2019 From: Rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 15:26:01 +0100 Subject: Test In-Reply-To: References: <31EF9EF8630A4455BD9146F491C05BE8@CharlesHPLaptop> Message-ID: <9CD8FC80-9814-4BF0-B1F4-5E7FFF477423@btinternet.com> > On Aug 11, 2019, at 3:25 PM, Alexandre Souza via cctalk wrote: > > Test error. Please call helpdesk. 555-1212 Have you tried turning it off and on again? From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Aug 11 09:33:55 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 10:33:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: List fault analysis (Was: Test) Message-ID: <20190811143355.8D9EA18C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Charles Morris > my last couple of posts don't seem to be showing up? I see several posts from you. To check suspected failures, look in the archive: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/ because just because you're not getting a personal email copy, doesn't mean it didn't go out to the list. E.g. you may have the 'Receive your own posts to the list?' option in your CCTalk subscription disabled. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Aug 11 09:41:11 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 10:41:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC VT20 boot device Message-ID: <20190811144111.C629B18C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Birkel > Apparently the VT20 used the M792-YK as its bootstrap; the Field Guide > is silent regarding the boot device and M792 documentation stops > earlier in the series of variants. An M792-YK recently sold on eBait; I didn't get it, but I did manage to get the seller to put up good photos of the board, so was able to dump the contents. I didn't fully disassamble the program, but it was clearly something serial line related. With the VT20 info, it's now clear what it was for. It should be pretty easy to fully disassamble, and work out the protocol. I have the dump of the contents if anyone has a use for them. Noel From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Aug 11 10:34:10 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 10:34:10 -0500 Subject: Pertec Interface Cable Length In-Reply-To: <107001d54fa9$867c7b70$93757250$@gmail.com> References: <48a88cf5-26d2-a16f-802f-ff7deb524175@comcast.net> <0cf801d54f59$9d3641c0$d7a2c540$@gmail.com> <314DA2C9-CFC1-41CC-9707-51BA6D305A59@nf6x.net> <107001d54fa9$867c7b70$93757250$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5D503572.4040004@pico-systems.com> On 08/10/2019 01:29 PM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctech On Behalf Of Mark J. Blair >> What term is used there for an engineer >> who works in fields of general electronics? >> > An electronics engineer... This war was settled in 1963 when the American Institute of Electrical Engineers merged with the Institute of Radio Engineers, realizing their battle was just silly and counterproductive. It was time, as serious electronics was moving into telecommunications and computers, numerically controlled machine tools, aviation, and more. If they had a separate institute for each area of specialization, it would just dilute the resources. Every one of them used Ohms law and its derivatives. Jon From nw.johnson at ieee.org Sun Aug 11 10:40:58 2019 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 11:40:58 -0400 Subject: Pertec Interface Cable Length In-Reply-To: <5D503572.4040004@pico-systems.com> References: <48a88cf5-26d2-a16f-802f-ff7deb524175@comcast.net> <0cf801d54f59$9d3641c0$d7a2c540$@gmail.com> <314DA2C9-CFC1-41CC-9707-51BA6D305A59@nf6x.net> <107001d54fa9$867c7b70$93757250$@gmail.com> <5D503572.4040004@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <39ab3158-f7ec-9dbf-926b-7bfd7a9f0619@ieee.org> It's funny how licensing bodies do not recognise computer engineers. I am a member if the IEEE, but since I first wrote to the local body in 1974 they have never recognised computer engineering as a discipline.? After twenty years of chip-level troubleshooting on DEC machines I spent twenty twenty-five years teaching college before retiring to my soon-to-be-restored collection of old kit. I ran into the then President of the provincial licensing association at an alumni event a few years ago and he laughed, saying they are still working on it! Meanwhile, computers run everything... cheers, Nigel Johnson On 11/08/2019 11:34, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 08/10/2019 01:29 PM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctech On Behalf Of Mark J. Blair >>> What term is used there for an engineer >>> who works in fields of general electronics? >>> >> An electronics engineer... > This war was settled in 1963 when the American Institute of Electrical > Engineers merged with the Institute of Radio Engineers, realizing > their battle was just silly and counterproductive. > > It was time, as serious electronics was moving into telecommunications > and computers, numerically controlled machine tools, aviation, and > more.? If they had a separate institute for each area of > specialization, it would just dilute the? resources. Every one of them > used Ohms law and its derivatives. > > Jon -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org Sun Aug 11 10:41:10 2019 From: ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org (U'll Be King Of The Stars) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 16:41:10 +0100 Subject: Test In-Reply-To: <9CD8FC80-9814-4BF0-B1F4-5E7FFF477423@btinternet.com> References: <31EF9EF8630A4455BD9146F491C05BE8@CharlesHPLaptop> <9CD8FC80-9814-4BF0-B1F4-5E7FFF477423@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <81CB5201-0579-4CDD-8989-DFA3784AD83B@andrewnesbit.org> On 11 August 2019 15:26:01 BST, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote: > >> On Aug 11, 2019, at 3:25 PM, Alexandre Souza via cctalk > wrote: >> >> Test error. Please call helpdesk. 555-1212 > >Have you tried turning it off and on again? Argh, you beat me to it! This joke never gets old. It only gets funnier and funnier each time. From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Sun Aug 11 11:01:04 2019 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 11:01:04 -0500 Subject: Pertec Interface Cable Length In-Reply-To: <5D503572.4040004@pico-systems.com> References: <48a88cf5-26d2-a16f-802f-ff7deb524175@comcast.net> <0cf801d54f59$9d3641c0$d7a2c540$@gmail.com> <314DA2C9-CFC1-41CC-9707-51BA6D305A59@nf6x.net> <107001d54fa9$867c7b70$93757250$@gmail.com> <5D503572.4040004@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 08/10/2019 01:29 PM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctech On Behalf Of Mark J. Blair >>> What term is used there for an engineer >>> who works in fields of general electronics? >>> >> An electronics engineer... > This war was settled in 1963 when the American Institute of Electrical > Engineers merged with the Institute of Radio Engineers, realizing > their battle was just silly and counterproductive. > > It was time, as serious electronics was moving into telecommunications > and computers, numerically controlled machine tools, aviation, and > more.? If they had a separate institute for each area of > specialization, it would just dilute the? resources. Every one of them > used Ohms law and its derivatives. > > Jon > I very much agree with the U.S. philosophy with regards to school organization (i.e., a department or school? with general electrical engineering faculty, directly hosting a degree program in electrical engineering, with majors in either communications, power systems, computer engineering, and so on.? In the last few decades some departments in the U.S. have transitioned to names such as "Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering" (see e.g. http://www.ece.wisc.edu/ and https://www.ece.cornell.edu/ece, precisely the two universities where I studied in the U.S.). In Latin America, with some exceptions, it is common that each very specific program is hosted by one very specific department, thus there is one electronics engineering program linked to a department of electronics engineering and a different electrical engineering program with a department of electrical engineering. This is especially true in older, public universities.? The reason for this is petty:? resource management (i.e., handling of tuition, human resources and so on) was often done at the program level, so people preferred to have "their own turf" in the organization and this led to this kind of granularization. I do belong to a "Department of Electrical, Electronics and Computer Engineering" and I like it this way.? We do, however, host two differently-named undergraduate programs, called, you guessed it, Electrical Engineering and Electronics Engineering.? Nowadays many students are choosing to stay one or two more semesters and obtain the two degrees; this is possible because of the curricular design that we have in place. In the U.S., some of the first Electrical Engineering programs were created inside Physics departments and only later were the corresponding departments created. carlos. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Aug 11 08:59:00 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 13:59:00 +0000 Subject: Pertec Interface Cable Length In-Reply-To: <1565528834881.53828@w2hx.com> References: <48a88cf5-26d2-a16f-802f-ff7deb524175@comcast.net> <5D4F0549.7020405@pico-systems.com> <231ce89b-1eb3-4883-c68e-2b20edf53f99@comcast.net> <1565528834881.53828@w2hx.com> Message-ID: On 8/11/19 9:07 AM, W2HX via cctech wrote: >> Would folding the > excess cable up and covering with anti-static plastic help? > > unlikely. The typical problem is that the longer the cable, the higher the capacitance of the transmission line. Therefore you get a lot of problems with rising and trailing edges of the signals which can cause all kinds of problems if not terminated correctly. I agree with the previous suggestion to make sure all termination is in place. If you can also place a scope on one of the lines (with high impedance probe) you can see what the edges look like. All of my Pertec tape drives (in the past) were located in a differentrack from the actual computer so the cables were always over 10' long and usually close to if not 20'. Never had a problem. I seem to remember they were ribbon cables with each odd/even pair twisted which probably meant one active and one ground twisted together. > ________________________________________ > From: cctech on behalf of Douglas Taylor via cctech > Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2019 12:33 AM > To: Jon Elson; On-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Pertec Interface Cable Length > > On 8/10/2019 1:56 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >> On 08/09/2019 11:05 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote: >>> I have a question about cable length - any electrical engineers in >>> the house? >>> >>> Connected a Qualstar 1260 tape drive to an Emulex TC02 qbus tape >>> controller in a pdp-11/53. The interface is pertec with 2 50 pin >>> cables. >>> >>> When I use a pair of short flat ribbon cables, 18 and 30 inches each, >>> it works. Under RT11 I can INIT, Copy, DUMP, do a Directory. >>> >>> It doesn't work when I use a pair of 5 foot long flat ribbon cables. >>> Are they too long? Do I need twisted pair type of cable? Is it >>> possibly a termination problem? >>> >> I have used cables about 20 feet long without trouble. The 2 50-pin >> cables is the Pertec formatted interface, which is really forgiving. >> Does you drive have terminators in both ends of the cable (both at the >> TC02 end and the drive end)? >> Now, I will mention that I have ONLY used twisted-pair ribbon cables >> with both flavors of interface, never straight ribbon cable. >> >> Jon >> >> > I haven't checked to see if there are terminators (Arnold the > Terminator) on either end. I did check the long cables for continuity > and found no problems. It may be an EMI problem. Would folding the > excess cable up and covering with anti-static plastic help? I don't remember there being any specific termination like you see on things like SCSI disks or RL Disks. But then, it has been a long time since I had my last Pertec Tape Drive. Only 9-track I have today is SCSI. bill ' bill From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 11 12:04:20 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 10:04:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Test In-Reply-To: <81CB5201-0579-4CDD-8989-DFA3784AD83B@andrewnesbit.org> References: <31EF9EF8630A4455BD9146F491C05BE8@CharlesHPLaptop> <9CD8FC80-9814-4BF0-B1F4-5E7FFF477423@btinternet.com> <81CB5201-0579-4CDD-8989-DFA3784AD83B@andrewnesbit.org> Message-ID: >> Test error. Please call helpdesk. 555-1212 > Have you tried turning it off and on again? If that doesn't work, reinstall the operating system. We've never heard of anybody having that problem. Have you applied all of the latest patches and upgrades? What did you expect? You cn't expect it to work with some other brnd of cables! You have HOW MUCH memory and disk space? running how fast? I'm amazed that it can even run in something so old. They haven't made machines like that since MARCH! You need to get an up to date machine! From raywjewhurst at gmail.com Sun Aug 11 12:26:33 2019 From: raywjewhurst at gmail.com (Ray Jewhurst) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 13:26:33 -0400 Subject: Test In-Reply-To: References: <31EF9EF8630A4455BD9146F491C05BE8@CharlesHPLaptop> <9CD8FC80-9814-4BF0-B1F4-5E7FFF477423@btinternet.com> <81CB5201-0579-4CDD-8989-DFA3784AD83B@andrewnesbit.org> Message-ID: Everybody forgot one. Have you installed unauthorized software? That is prohibited. This conversation brings me back to my help desk days! On Sun, Aug 11, 2019, 1:04 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> Test error. Please call helpdesk. 555-1212 > > Have you tried turning it off and on again? > > If that doesn't work, reinstall the operating system. > > > We've never heard of anybody having that problem. > > Have you applied all of the latest patches and upgrades? > > > What did you expect? You cn't expect it to work with some other brnd of > cables! > > You have HOW MUCH memory and disk space? running how fast? > I'm amazed that it can even run in something so old. They haven't made > machines like that since MARCH! > You need to get an up to date machine! > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Aug 11 13:14:58 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 19:14:58 +0100 Subject: Test In-Reply-To: References: <31EF9EF8630A4455BD9146F491C05BE8@CharlesHPLaptop> <9CD8FC80-9814-4BF0-B1F4-5E7FFF477423@btinternet.com> <81CB5201-0579-4CDD-8989-DFA3784AD83B@andrewnesbit.org> Message-ID: <184201d55070$afbaecc0$0f30c640$@gmail.com> Yes, silly conversation with a department... A. Can we have Google Earth installed. It would be really useful in our job B. Yes if you pay, there is a fee for commercial use. A. What if we won't use it for commercial purposes... B. We won't install software for specifically for personal use, only business use Same department later had to pay up historical licences when caught using some different free-for-personal use software for business. An employee they dismissed reported them to the software provider.... What fun, what joy... Dave p.s. yes the free version of google earth can now be used commercially > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Ray Jewhurst via > cctalk > Sent: 11 August 2019 18:27 > To: Fred Cisin ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Test > > Everybody forgot one. Have you installed unauthorized software? That is > prohibited. This conversation brings me back to my help desk days! > > On Sun, Aug 11, 2019, 1:04 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > > > >> Test error. Please call helpdesk. 555-1212 > > > Have you tried turning it off and on again? > > > > If that doesn't work, reinstall the operating system. > > > > > > We've never heard of anybody having that problem. > > > > Have you applied all of the latest patches and upgrades? > > > > > > What did you expect? You cn't expect it to work with some other brnd > > of cables! > > > > You have HOW MUCH memory and disk space? running how fast? > > I'm amazed that it can even run in something so old. They haven't > > made machines like that since MARCH! > > You need to get an up to date machine! > > From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sun Aug 11 14:14:06 2019 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 20:14:06 +0100 Subject: Alphaservers for free in Athabasca, Alberta In-Reply-To: <5D499F0F.2000107@pico-systems.com> References: <20190806005120.A00A2273CF@mx1.ezwind.net> <12fd505d-2c4f-c9ab-2edd-aecc2b42bb96@jetnet.ab.ca> <180f01d54c32$f06d2c20$d1478460$@gmail.com> <5D499F0F.2000107@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 06/08/2019 16:38, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > The VAX 11/780 definitely had PDP-11 emulation, apparently in the > microcode.? I'm kind of guessing the 750 and 730 also had this. As far > as I know, no later machines had hardware (microcode) emulation, and > did it all by software.? It didn't take very long for DEC to recompile > all the VMS utilities into native VAX executables.? I think we started > with VMS 3.x and very quickly updated to a 4.1 VMS version.? I was not > aware of any PDP-11 code in them, but I did not look very closely. > > The VAX-11/7xx all implemented PDP-11 compatibility mode, I think. That's VAX-11/780, VAX-11/725/730, VAX-11/750 and VAX 8600 (which was at one point going to be VAX-11/790). The VAX 8650 was a souped up VAX 8600 [1] so that almost certainly has PDP-11 compatibility mode. Nothing else does. The VAX 82x0/83x0/85x0/8700/8800/88x0 don't. Antonio [1] Actually I think that the VAX 8600 ("Venus") was slowed down to get it reliable enough to ship at all (and it was quite late at that, iirc). The VAX 8650 ("Morningstar") followed just over a year later and was (more or less) what the original VAX 8600 should have been. -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Aug 11 17:58:26 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 17:58:26 -0500 Subject: Pertec Interface Cable Length In-Reply-To: <39ab3158-f7ec-9dbf-926b-7bfd7a9f0619@ieee.org> References: <48a88cf5-26d2-a16f-802f-ff7deb524175@comcast.net> <0cf801d54f59$9d3641c0$d7a2c540$@gmail.com> <314DA2C9-CFC1-41CC-9707-51BA6D305A59@nf6x.net> <107001d54fa9$867c7b70$93757250$@gmail.com> <5D503572.4040004@pico-systems.com> <39ab3158-f7ec-9dbf-926b-7bfd7a9f0619@ieee.org> Message-ID: <5D509D92.3040905@pico-systems.com> On 08/11/2019 10:40 AM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > It's funny how licensing bodies do not recognise computer > engineers. I am a member if the IEEE, but since I first > wrote to the local body in 1974 they have never recognised > computer engineering as a discipline. After twenty years > of chip-level troubleshooting on DEC machines I spent > twenty twenty-five years teaching college before retiring > to my soon-to-be-restored collection of old kit. > > I ran into the then President of the provincial licensing > association at an alumni event a few years ago and he > laughed, saying they are still working on it! > Well, "computer engineering" isn't well-defined. For EE, you can write loop and node equations and solve, and determine exactly how an electrical network will behave. They are trying to make systems that can analyze computer programs in the same way, but I think we are pretty far from that level of rigor. Jon From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Aug 11 18:45:40 2019 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 17:45:40 -0600 Subject: DEC VT20 boot device In-Reply-To: References: <040001d54fad$5d481800$17d84800$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 11, 2019 at 1:18 AM Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: > The VT20 design team was, iirc, John Kirk for the video, and me for > the Unibus interface in the first version. The one with the slick > one shown here, > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/vt20/vt20_2.jpg > That looks pretty nice, since externally it just looks like a VT05 with extra buttons. The vt20/b (photos in same directory), on the other hand, is one of the ugliest terminals I've ever seen. From nw.johnson at ieee.org Sun Aug 11 18:49:32 2019 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 19:49:32 -0400 Subject: DEC VT20 boot device In-Reply-To: References: <040001d54fad$5d481800$17d84800$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8110cc8e-9aba-80bc-c246-02bf17c0e827@ieee.org> I worked on a lot of Xerox 820s, apparently that did the same job! On 11/08/2019 19:45, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, Aug 11, 2019 at 1:18 AM Bob Smith via cctalk > wrote: > >> The VT20 design team was, iirc, John Kirk for the video, and me for >> the Unibus interface in the first version. The one with the slick >> one shown here, >> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/vt20/vt20_2.jpg >> > That looks pretty nice, since externally it just looks like a VT05 with > extra buttons. > > The vt20/b (photos in same directory), on the other hand, is one of the > ugliest terminals I've ever seen. -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Aug 11 19:25:59 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 20:25:59 -0400 Subject: DEC VT20 boot device In-Reply-To: References: <040001d54fad$5d481800$17d84800$@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Aug 11, 2019, at 7:45 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > > On Sun, Aug 11, 2019 at 1:18 AM Bob Smith via cctalk > wrote: > >> The VT20 design team was, iirc, John Kirk for the video, and me for >> the Unibus interface in the first version. The one with the slick >> one shown here, >> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/vt20/vt20_2.jpg >> > > That looks pretty nice, since externally it just looks like a VT05 with > extra buttons. > > The vt20/b (photos in same directory), on the other hand, is one of the > ugliest terminals I've ever seen. It looks a bit like an early concept for what became the VT71. The terminals directory also shows a thing called VT21 which appears to be identical to the VT71. I wonder if the VT20/b and VT21 were engineering prototypes that were later released under the name VT71. paul From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sun Aug 11 20:44:07 2019 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 20:44:07 -0500 Subject: ADM-3A question Message-ID: <7889EBD1D02A4D3EA8A6EE05E713AD13@CharlesHPLaptop> After replacing the RAM, the display is now back to normal (there's also a test switch on the motherboard (S6) that switches the display from blank spaces to all zeroes. The one that failed was a National Semi 2102, whereas the others are all from another manufacturer. No sign of previous replacement. Interesting. (I once fixed up a PDP-8/L, chased down several bad chips. Nearly all were Signetics 7440's). I may have made a tactical error though - turns out that wet/damp PVA is electrically conductive! Enough to overcome the 5k pullup resistors. An unpleasant surprise. So now the keyboard thinks multiple keys are being pressed and won't work at all. Removing the keyboard to clean underneath it would be very tedious since every key has two soldered pins... There was a significant buildup of goop underneath the key scan mux and demux chips where the pins are close together (0.1"). I gave the bottom half of the board another good rinse and will let it dry overnight, maybe a hair dryer too. Or get some more 91% alcohol to it and a longer low-temp bake. It all worked before my "cleanup" so I expect it will resume normal operation once the moisture is out of any remaining goop. I hope ;) --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Aug 11 21:45:46 2019 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 19:45:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A selection of VCFW 2019 pictures Message-ID: <201908120245.x7C2jkBm11862256@floodgap.com> I've put up some of my pics in two parts since the blogs I maintain have somewhat different audiences. This isn't everything I shot but it's the ones I found most meaningful to me. http://tenfourfox.blogspot.com/2019/08/and-now-for-something-completely.html https://www.talospace.com/2019/08/power-stuff-and-other-stuff-at-vintage.html -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Everything you think you know is wrong. -- Jack Chalker -------------------- From w2hx at w2hx.com Sun Aug 11 11:11:29 2019 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 16:11:29 +0000 Subject: Pertec Interface Cable Length In-Reply-To: References: <48a88cf5-26d2-a16f-802f-ff7deb524175@comcast.net> <5D4F0549.7020405@pico-systems.com> <231ce89b-1eb3-4883-c68e-2b20edf53f99@comcast.net> <1565528834881.53828@w2hx.com>, Message-ID: <1565539890348.21743@w2hx.com> >All of my Pertec tape drives (in the past) were located in a differentrack from the actual computer so the cables were always over 10' long and usually close to if not 20'. Never had a problem. That is because a) you had the proper termination in place and b) the signalling speed of the interface was slow enough to cope (you were probably within spec). > I seem to remember they were ribbon cables with each odd/even pair twisted which probably meant one active and one ground twisted together. Or differential pairs. 73 Eugene W2HX ________________________________________ From: cctech on behalf of Bill Gunshannon via cctech Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2019 9:59 AM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Pertec Interface Cable Length On 8/11/19 9:07 AM, W2HX via cctech wrote: >> Would folding the > excess cable up and covering with anti-static plastic help? > > unlikely. The typical problem is that the longer the cable, the higher the capacitance of the transmission line. Therefore you get a lot of problems with rising and trailing edges of the signals which can cause all kinds of problems if not terminated correctly. I agree with the previous suggestion to make sure all termination is in place. If you can also place a scope on one of the lines (with high impedance probe) you can see what the edges look like. All of my Pertec tape drives (in the past) were located in a differentrack from the actual computer so the cables were always over 10' long and usually close to if not 20'. Never had a problem. I seem to remember they were ribbon cables with each odd/even pair twisted which probably meant one active and one ground twisted together. > ________________________________________ > From: cctech on behalf of Douglas Taylor via cctech > Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2019 12:33 AM > To: Jon Elson; On-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Pertec Interface Cable Length > > On 8/10/2019 1:56 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >> On 08/09/2019 11:05 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote: >>> I have a question about cable length - any electrical engineers in >>> the house? >>> >>> Connected a Qualstar 1260 tape drive to an Emulex TC02 qbus tape >>> controller in a pdp-11/53. The interface is pertec with 2 50 pin >>> cables. >>> >>> When I use a pair of short flat ribbon cables, 18 and 30 inches each, >>> it works. Under RT11 I can INIT, Copy, DUMP, do a Directory. >>> >>> It doesn't work when I use a pair of 5 foot long flat ribbon cables. >>> Are they too long? Do I need twisted pair type of cable? Is it >>> possibly a termination problem? >>> >> I have used cables about 20 feet long without trouble. The 2 50-pin >> cables is the Pertec formatted interface, which is really forgiving. >> Does you drive have terminators in both ends of the cable (both at the >> TC02 end and the drive end)? >> Now, I will mention that I have ONLY used twisted-pair ribbon cables >> with both flavors of interface, never straight ribbon cable. >> >> Jon >> >> > I haven't checked to see if there are terminators (Arnold the > Terminator) on either end. I did check the long cables for continuity > and found no problems. It may be an EMI problem. Would folding the > excess cable up and covering with anti-static plastic help? I don't remember there being any specific termination like you see on things like SCSI disks or RL Disks. But then, it has been a long time since I had my last Pertec Tape Drive. Only 9-track I have today is SCSI. bill ' bill From aperry at snowmoose.com Sun Aug 11 12:29:13 2019 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 10:29:13 -0700 Subject: Removing PVA (Was: ADM-3A question) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <912f21d4-3908-6ae7-49e8-209a5f1c17be@snowmoose.com> On 8/11/19 6:58 AM, Charles via cctech wrote: > Anyway. I did a bit more Googling and discovered that plain water > dissolves the PVA goop just fine. No need to use a lot of expensive > alcohol which seems to be a less effective solvent anyway! Last Christmas, I removed the old PVA from a DEC VR201 for a Rainbow 100. On the advice of a website that I found, I bought butyl acetate and a long needle syringe for injecting it deep into the PVA. However, after I removed the seal around the glass/tube, the glass practically fell off and most of the PVA came off in a sheet. I had some electronics grade isopropyl alcohol around anyway and I used that to do a final clean of everything before reassembly and reseal. So, if anyone in the Seattle area needs a bottle of butyl acetate ... alan From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Aug 11 16:21:48 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 15:21:48 -0600 Subject: Removing PVA (Was: ADM-3A question) In-Reply-To: <912f21d4-3908-6ae7-49e8-209a5f1c17be@snowmoose.com> References: <912f21d4-3908-6ae7-49e8-209a5f1c17be@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 11, 2019, 11:29 AM Alan Perry via cctech wrote: > > > On 8/11/19 6:58 AM, Charles via cctech wrote: > > Anyway. I did a bit more Googling and discovered that plain water > > dissolves the PVA goop just fine. No need to use a lot of expensive > > alcohol which seems to be a less effective solvent anyway! > > Last Christmas, I removed the old PVA from a DEC VR201 for a Rainbow > 100. On the advice of a website that I found, I bought butyl acetate and > a long needle syringe for injecting it deep into the PVA. > > However, after I removed the seal around the glass/tube, the glass > practically fell off and most of the PVA came off in a sheet. I had some > electronics grade isopropyl alcohol around anyway and I used that to do > a final clean of everything before reassembly and reseal. > What did you replace the PVA with? Warner So, if anyone in the Seattle area needs a bottle of butyl acetate ... > > alan > From aperry at snowmoose.com Sun Aug 11 16:48:13 2019 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 14:48:13 -0700 Subject: Removing PVA (Was: ADM-3A question) In-Reply-To: References: <912f21d4-3908-6ae7-49e8-209a5f1c17be@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On 8/11/19 2:21 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Sun, Aug 11, 2019, 11:29 AM Alan Perry via cctech > > wrote: > > > > On 8/11/19 6:58 AM, Charles via cctech wrote: > > Anyway. I did a bit more Googling and discovered that plain water > > dissolves the PVA goop just fine. No need to use a lot of expensive > > alcohol which seems to be a less effective solvent anyway! > > Last Christmas, I removed the old PVA from a DEC VR201 for a Rainbow > 100. On the advice of a website that I found, I bought butyl acetate > and > a long needle syringe for injecting it deep into the PVA. > > However, after I removed the seal around the glass/tube, the glass > practically fell off and most of the PVA came off in a sheet. I had > some > electronics grade isopropyl alcohol around anyway and I used that to do > a final clean of everything before reassembly and reseal. > > > What did you replace the PVA with? Nothing. Air. I think it was here that someone told me that a small CRT like the VR201 doesn't need PVA filling the gap for implosion protection. alan > > Warner > > So, if anyone in the Seattle area needs a bottle of butyl acetate ... > > alan > From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Aug 11 18:01:47 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 18:01:47 -0500 Subject: Pertec Interface Cable Length In-Reply-To: <1565539890348.21743@w2hx.com> References: <48a88cf5-26d2-a16f-802f-ff7deb524175@comcast.net> <5D4F0549.7020405@pico-systems.com> <231ce89b-1eb3-4883-c68e-2b20edf53f99@comcast.net> <1565528834881.53828@w2hx.com>, <1565539890348.21743@w2hx.com> Message-ID: <5D509E5B.5000408@pico-systems.com> On 08/11/2019 11:11 AM, W2HX via cctech wrote: > I seem to remember they were ribbon cables > with each odd/even pair twisted which probably meant one > active and one ground twisted together. > > Or differential pairs. > > No, both Pertec unformatted and Pertec formatted interfaces were TTL single-ended. Jon From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Sun Aug 11 20:00:43 2019 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 21:00:43 -0400 Subject: Pertec Interface Cable Length In-Reply-To: <5D509E5B.5000408@pico-systems.com> References: <48a88cf5-26d2-a16f-802f-ff7deb524175@comcast.net> <5D4F0549.7020405@pico-systems.com> <231ce89b-1eb3-4883-c68e-2b20edf53f99@comcast.net> <1565528834881.53828@w2hx.com> <1565539890348.21743@w2hx.com> <5D509E5B.5000408@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <9095477e-12ba-e1e2-570c-38ab2a818bae@comcast.net> On 8/11/2019 7:01 PM, Jon Elson via cctech wrote: > On 08/11/2019 11:11 AM, W2HX via cctech wrote: >> I seem to remember they were ribbon cables >> with each odd/even pair twisted which probably meant one >> active and one ground twisted together. >> >> Or differential pairs. >> >> > No, both Pertec unformatted and Pertec formatted interfaces were TTL > single-ended. > > Jon I just looked at the TC02 and the Qualstar, there are termination resistor packs on each.? The Qualstar has a bunch of 74LS240 IC's near the J1 and J2 pertec interface cables.? The TC02 has a bunch of 74LS374 chips near the J1 and J2 connectors. This is where the electrical engineer could help.? How do you determine how long a cable the 74LS240 can drive? Doug From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Aug 11 22:21:54 2019 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 20:21:54 -0700 Subject: Pertec Interface Cable Length In-Reply-To: References: <48a88cf5-26d2-a16f-802f-ff7deb524175@comcast.net> <5D4F0549.7020405@pico-systems.com> <231ce89b-1eb3-4883-c68e-2b20edf53f99@comcast.net> <1565528834881.53828@w2hx.com> <1565539890348.21743@w2hx.com> <5D509E5B.5000408@pico-systems.com> <9095477e-12ba-e1e2-570c-38ab2a818bae@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 11, 2019 at 7:44 PM Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote: > > On 8/11/19 6:00 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote: > > > I just looked at the TC02 and the Qualstar, there are termination > > resistor packs on each. The Qualstar has a bunch of 74LS240 IC's near > > the J1 and J2 pertec interface cables. The TC02 has a bunch of 74LS374 > > chips near the J1 and J2 connectors. > > > > This is where the electrical engineer could help. How do you determine > > how long a cable the 74LS240 can drive? > > TC02? The DECtape controller? > I assume TC02 here refers to an Emulex TC02, a Q-Bus Pertec interface tape controller which emulates a TS11 tape controller. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/emulex/TC0251002-G_TC02tech_Jul85.pdf From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Sun Aug 11 22:51:55 2019 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 23:51:55 -0400 Subject: Pertec Interface Cable Length In-Reply-To: References: <48a88cf5-26d2-a16f-802f-ff7deb524175@comcast.net> <5D4F0549.7020405@pico-systems.com> <231ce89b-1eb3-4883-c68e-2b20edf53f99@comcast.net> <1565528834881.53828@w2hx.com> <1565539890348.21743@w2hx.com> <5D509E5B.5000408@pico-systems.com> <9095477e-12ba-e1e2-570c-38ab2a818bae@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 8/11/2019 10:44 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote: > On 8/11/19 6:00 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote: > >> I just looked at the TC02 and the Qualstar, there are termination >> resistor packs on each.? The Qualstar has a bunch of 74LS240 IC's near >> the J1 and J2 pertec interface cables.? The TC02 has a bunch of 74LS374 >> chips near the J1 and J2 connectors. >> >> This is where the electrical engineer could help.? How do you determine >> how long a cable the 74LS240 can drive? > TC02? The DECtape controller? > > Sorry, I must be dense; I'm not following. > > --Chuck The TC02 is an Emulex TS11 emulation for pertec interface tape drives.? The J1 and J2 are sort of standard terminology, don't know why. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 11 13:50:27 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 11:50:27 -0700 Subject: Pertec Interface Cable Length In-Reply-To: <1565539890348.21743@w2hx.com> References: <48a88cf5-26d2-a16f-802f-ff7deb524175@comcast.net> <5D4F0549.7020405@pico-systems.com> <231ce89b-1eb3-4883-c68e-2b20edf53f99@comcast.net> <1565528834881.53828@w2hx.com> <1565539890348.21743@w2hx.com> Message-ID: <260ab00d-6ac2-fa40-43d2-c0c62a3eb260@sydex.com> On 8/11/19 9:11 AM, W2HX via cctech wrote: >> All of my Pertec tape drives (in the past) were located in > a differentrack from the actual computer so the cables were > always over 10' long and usually close to if not 20'. Never > had a problem. I stand by my commentary re Qualstar 1xxx drives. They're not up to the task of driving long cables. Who has one such drive with 10' cables operating correctly? Until someone comes up with actual experience with said drives, we're just guessing. I note that my 1260S does have the capability to be used as a Pertec interface drive. I suppose I could re-cable from one of my other drives and test it, but at this stage, I hardly see the point. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 11 21:44:15 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 19:44:15 -0700 Subject: Pertec Interface Cable Length In-Reply-To: <9095477e-12ba-e1e2-570c-38ab2a818bae@comcast.net> References: <48a88cf5-26d2-a16f-802f-ff7deb524175@comcast.net> <5D4F0549.7020405@pico-systems.com> <231ce89b-1eb3-4883-c68e-2b20edf53f99@comcast.net> <1565528834881.53828@w2hx.com> <1565539890348.21743@w2hx.com> <5D509E5B.5000408@pico-systems.com> <9095477e-12ba-e1e2-570c-38ab2a818bae@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 8/11/19 6:00 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote: > I just looked at the TC02 and the Qualstar, there are termination > resistor packs on each.? The Qualstar has a bunch of 74LS240 IC's near > the J1 and J2 pertec interface cables.? The TC02 has a bunch of 74LS374 > chips near the J1 and J2 connectors. > > This is where the electrical engineer could help.? How do you determine > how long a cable the 74LS240 can drive? TC02? The DECtape controller? Sorry, I must be dense; I'm not following. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 12 00:25:08 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2019 22:25:08 -0700 Subject: Pertec Interface Cable Length In-Reply-To: References: <48a88cf5-26d2-a16f-802f-ff7deb524175@comcast.net> <5D4F0549.7020405@pico-systems.com> <231ce89b-1eb3-4883-c68e-2b20edf53f99@comcast.net> <1565528834881.53828@w2hx.com> <1565539890348.21743@w2hx.com> <5D509E5B.5000408@pico-systems.com> <9095477e-12ba-e1e2-570c-38ab2a818bae@comcast.net> Message-ID: <440c3203-4d4f-2da4-6649-70e3300fd2d2@sydex.com> On 8/11/19 8:51 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote: > > The TC02 is an Emulex TS11 emulation for pertec interface tape drives.? > The J1 and J2 are sort of standard terminology, don't know why. Ah, the *Emulex* TC02. You had me going there--DEC also has a DECtape controller called the TC02. Looking at the TC02, there are 374s to latch data coming from the Qualstar and use the termination packs, but there are also 7438s driving the lines from the TC02 to the Qualstar. Those have no terminators. The TC02 reference manual says that you get run lines up to 30 feet long between the TC02 and formatter. My point is that the driver technology for the Qualstar (i.e. read data and status) is inappropriate for long cable runs. The spec calls for 48 ma OC drivers. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Aug 12 10:48:58 2019 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 08:48:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Searching for manuals... Message-ID: I'm looking for a full set of manuals for the Microsoft Professional Development System v7.1. If anyone here has them to loan for scanning or to sell, please contact me directly. Thanks! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Mon Aug 12 12:41:39 2019 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 17:41:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Control Data 9766 drive on epay References: <667710347.6020915.1565631699020.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <667710347.6020915.1565631699020@mail.yahoo.com> Hi list, Just came across this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Computing-CDC-Magnetic-Peripherals-Control-Data-9766-Storage-Module/143351908424?hash=item2160708848:g:3yEAAOSw1oJdTo9u Haven't seen one listed in years. The price lets me assume that this offer addresses customers that may use these drives in a production environment or so... I am not aware of museums or hobbyists who have such drives currently in a functional state to read and write from and to 80MB (CDC 9762) or 300MB (CDC 9766) disk packs. Maybe the CHM? ... not taking into consideration the CHM activities related to the Xerox disk cartidge? (2315-equivalent) software archive project. Anybody out there? Would be interesting to know. Best regards, Pierre ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.digitalheritage.de From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 12 13:04:10 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 11:04:10 -0700 Subject: Control Data 9766 drive on epay In-Reply-To: <667710347.6020915.1565631699020@mail.yahoo.com> References: <667710347.6020915.1565631699020.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <667710347.6020915.1565631699020@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7255e822-ad08-4bd5-84bc-dffc5e36caa3@bitsavers.org> On 8/12/19 10:41 AM, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: > I am not aware of museums or hobbyists who have such drives currently in a functional state to read and write from and to 80MB (CDC 9762) or 300MB (CDC 9766) disk packs. Maybe the CHM? We don't have one in working condition, and we're unlikely to attempt any work on multi-platter media recovery any time soon. I have three Pertec top-loading drives and several Diablo 30s, but haven't had time to try flux-level recovery on several dozen high archival value targets, including what may be the only surviving Burroughs B1700 packs. LCM was working on an alternative approach to multi-platter media recovery but I've not heard anything more about that in a while From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 12 13:09:16 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 14:09:16 -0400 Subject: Control Data 9766 drive on epay In-Reply-To: <667710347.6020915.1565631699020@mail.yahoo.com> References: <667710347.6020915.1565631699020.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <667710347.6020915.1565631699020@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: There is a Make Offer option, and it does look like the seller does take offers fairly regularly. I will not be buying it. If someone does, I have a huge amount of spares for 976x drives, including refurbished heads. It might take a while to find them in my mess, however. -- Will On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 1:43 PM P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: > > Hi list, > > Just came across this: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Computing-CDC-Magnetic-Peripherals-Control-Data-9766-Storage-Module/143351908424?hash=item2160708848:g:3yEAAOSw1oJdTo9u > > Haven't seen one listed in years. The price lets me assume that this offer addresses customers that may use these drives in a production environment or so... > I am not aware of museums or hobbyists who have such drives currently in a functional state to read and write from and to 80MB (CDC 9762) or 300MB (CDC 9766) disk packs. Maybe the CHM? ... not taking into consideration the CHM activities related to the Xerox disk cartidge (2315-equivalent) software archive project. > Anybody out there? Would be interesting to know. > > Best regards, > Pierre > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.digitalheritage.de From systems.glitch at gmail.com Mon Aug 12 13:37:26 2019 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 14:37:26 -0400 Subject: Control Data 9766 drive on epay In-Reply-To: References: <667710347.6020915.1565631699020.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <667710347.6020915.1565631699020@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Interesting, I've just picked up two 9766s and two OEMed CDC pack drives (unsure of model # yet). I might be bugging you about spares :P Thanks, Jonathan On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 2:09 PM William Donzelli via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > There is a Make Offer option, and it does look like the seller does > take offers fairly regularly. I will not be buying it. > > If someone does, I have a huge amount of spares for 976x drives, > including refurbished heads. It might take a while to find them in my > mess, however. > > -- > Will > > On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 1:43 PM P Gebhardt via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Hi list, > > > > Just came across this: > > > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Computing-CDC-Magnetic-Peripherals-Control-Data-9766-Storage-Module/143351908424?hash=item2160708848:g:3yEAAOSw1oJdTo9u > > > > Haven't seen one listed in years. The price lets me assume that this > offer addresses customers that may use these drives in a production > environment or so... > > I am not aware of museums or hobbyists who have such drives currently in > a functional state to read and write from and to 80MB (CDC 9762) or 300MB > (CDC 9766) disk packs. Maybe the CHM? ... not taking into consideration the > CHM activities related to the Xerox disk cartidge (2315-equivalent) > software archive project. > > Anybody out there? Would be interesting to know. > > > > Best regards, > > Pierre > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > http://www.digitalheritage.de > From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Aug 12 13:38:34 2019 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 11:38:34 -0700 Subject: Control Data 9766 drive on epay In-Reply-To: References: <667710347.6020915.1565631699020.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <667710347.6020915.1565631699020@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Well, crap. I got rid of my 2 9766?s and all the packs that I had for them a couple of years ago for nothing what this guy is asking for his. ;-) I probably still have a pile of heads for them (but they?d probably go to the guy who purchased the drives/packs from me). What are folks using these types of drivers for? Media content recovery or just using them as intended? TTFN - Guy > On Aug 12, 2019, at 11:09 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > > There is a Make Offer option, and it does look like the seller does > take offers fairly regularly. I will not be buying it. > > If someone does, I have a huge amount of spares for 976x drives, > including refurbished heads. It might take a while to find them in my > mess, however. > > -- > Will > > On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 1:43 PM P Gebhardt via cctalk > wrote: >> >> Hi list, >> >> Just came across this: >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Computing-CDC-Magnetic-Peripherals-Control-Data-9766-Storage-Module/143351908424?hash=item2160708848:g:3yEAAOSw1oJdTo9u >> >> Haven't seen one listed in years. The price lets me assume that this offer addresses customers that may use these drives in a production environment or so... >> I am not aware of museums or hobbyists who have such drives currently in a functional state to read and write from and to 80MB (CDC 9762) or 300MB (CDC 9766) disk packs. Maybe the CHM? ... not taking into consideration the CHM activities related to the Xerox disk cartidge (2315-equivalent) software archive project. >> Anybody out there? Would be interesting to know. >> >> Best regards, >> Pierre >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> http://www.digitalheritage.de From aperry at snowmoose.com Mon Aug 12 13:40:13 2019 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 11:40:13 -0700 Subject: Control Data 9766 drive on epay In-Reply-To: References: <667710347.6020915.1565631699020.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <667710347.6020915.1565631699020@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9a75eded-8a78-18b0-9d1f-e175781d22ea@snowmoose.com> Would this have been connected to a CDC Cyber back in the day? I noticed that this is in Athens, GA, home of University of Georgia. The first programs that I ever wrote were on a CDC Cyber there (via a 300-baud acoustic coupler modem at Valdosta State College). alan On 8/12/19 11:09 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > There is a Make Offer option, and it does look like the seller does > take offers fairly regularly. I will not be buying it. > > If someone does, I have a huge amount of spares for 976x drives, > including refurbished heads. It might take a while to find them in my > mess, however. > > -- > Will > > On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 1:43 PM P Gebhardt via cctalk > wrote: >> >> Hi list, >> >> Just came across this: >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Computing-CDC-Magnetic-Peripherals-Control-Data-9766-Storage-Module/143351908424?hash=item2160708848:g:3yEAAOSw1oJdTo9u >> >> Haven't seen one listed in years. The price lets me assume that this offer addresses customers that may use these drives in a production environment or so... >> I am not aware of museums or hobbyists who have such drives currently in a functional state to read and write from and to 80MB (CDC 9762) or 300MB (CDC 9766) disk packs. Maybe the CHM? ... not taking into consideration the CHM activities related to the Xerox disk cartidge (2315-equivalent) software archive project. >> Anybody out there? Would be interesting to know. >> >> Best regards, >> Pierre >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> http://www.digitalheritage.de From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Aug 12 13:53:04 2019 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 11:53:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Control Data 9766 drive on epay In-Reply-To: <7255e822-ad08-4bd5-84bc-dffc5e36caa3@bitsavers.org> References: <667710347.6020915.1565631699020.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <667710347.6020915.1565631699020@mail.yahoo.com> <7255e822-ad08-4bd5-84bc-dffc5e36caa3@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Aug 2019, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > LCM was working on an alternative approach to multi-platter media > recovery but I've not heard anything more about that in a while When I was there for VCFPNW, I saw the rig they'd built for that. At the time they were perfecting getting photos of the surface taken and were looking into writing software that would convert the images to a data stream. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 12 13:53:51 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 14:53:51 -0400 Subject: Control Data 9766 drive on epay In-Reply-To: <9a75eded-8a78-18b0-9d1f-e175781d22ea@snowmoose.com> References: <667710347.6020915.1565631699020.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <667710347.6020915.1565631699020@mail.yahoo.com> <9a75eded-8a78-18b0-9d1f-e175781d22ea@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 2:40 PM Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > Would this have been connected to a CDC Cyber back in the day? I noticed > that this is in Athens, GA, home of University of Georgia. The first > programs that I ever wrote were on a CDC Cyber there (via a 300-baud > acoustic coupler modem at Valdosta State College). I am not a CDC CPU expert but I know that various CDC SMD drives, especially the 9762 and 9766 were found on PDP-11s and VAXen owing to inexpensive (compared to DEC) 3rd Party disk controllers (and drivers for various operating systems). The drive mechs were also repackaged and put behind modified SMD-Massbus interfaces and were available from DEC as the RM02/RM03 (9762) and RM05 (9766) but they were DEC badged not CDC badged (colors, labels, etc) so you wouldn't mistake one from the other externally. I happen to have a 9766 (and at least one SMD interface for either Unibus or Qbus) but no pack. -ethan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 12 14:31:36 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 15:31:36 -0400 Subject: Control Data 9766 drive on epay In-Reply-To: <9a75eded-8a78-18b0-9d1f-e175781d22ea@snowmoose.com> References: <667710347.6020915.1565631699020.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <667710347.6020915.1565631699020@mail.yahoo.com> <9a75eded-8a78-18b0-9d1f-e175781d22ea@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: It was an uncommon option for lower end Cyber 180s. -- Will On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 2:40 PM Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > > Would this have been connected to a CDC Cyber back in the day? I noticed > that this is in Athens, GA, home of University of Georgia. The first > programs that I ever wrote were on a CDC Cyber there (via a 300-baud > acoustic coupler modem at Valdosta State College). > > alan > > On 8/12/19 11:09 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > > There is a Make Offer option, and it does look like the seller does > > take offers fairly regularly. I will not be buying it. > > > > If someone does, I have a huge amount of spares for 976x drives, > > including refurbished heads. It might take a while to find them in my > > mess, however. > > > > -- > > Will > > > > On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 1:43 PM P Gebhardt via cctalk > > wrote: > >> > >> Hi list, > >> > >> Just came across this: > >> > >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Computing-CDC-Magnetic-Peripherals-Control-Data-9766-Storage-Module/143351908424?hash=item2160708848:g:3yEAAOSw1oJdTo9u > >> > >> Haven't seen one listed in years. The price lets me assume that this offer addresses customers that may use these drives in a production environment or so... > >> I am not aware of museums or hobbyists who have such drives currently in a functional state to read and write from and to 80MB (CDC 9762) or 300MB (CDC 9766) disk packs. Maybe the CHM? ... not taking into consideration the CHM activities related to the Xerox disk cartidge (2315-equivalent) software archive project. > >> Anybody out there? Would be interesting to know. > >> > >> Best regards, > >> Pierre > >> > >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> http://www.digitalheritage.de From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Aug 12 15:55:30 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 21:55:30 +0100 Subject: Control Data 9766 drive on epay In-Reply-To: <667710347.6020915.1565631699020@mail.yahoo.com> References: <667710347.6020915.1565631699020.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <667710347.6020915.1565631699020@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <258801d55150$47651ca0$d62f55e0$@gmail.com> Pierre, I would suggest that as you haven't seen one in ages, the price reflects the rarity and the vendor is hoping for a rich collector to buy it. I don't know off hand of anyone who uses one. I know that the 4341 at LCM uses emulated DASD as does the ICL 2900 at TNMOC in the UK which I think has some EDS300 drives https://farm9.static.flickr.com/8314/7939054098_08c37818fe_b.jpg which look almost identical to the CDC drive on E-Bay, there are a few more pics here https://hiveminer.com/Tags/bletchleypark%2Cicl There are people using smaller exchangeable drives such as DEC RL01 and RL02 drives, and the similar drives on the IBM1130 and IBM1800 but those are a totally different ball game... Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of P Gebhardt via > cctalk > Sent: 12 August 2019 18:42 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Control Data 9766 drive on epay > > Hi list, > > Just came across this: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Computing-CDC-Magnetic-Peripherals- > Control-Data-9766-Storage- > Module/143351908424?hash=item2160708848:g:3yEAAOSw1oJdTo9u > > Haven't seen one listed in years. The price lets me assume that this offer > addresses customers that may use these drives in a production environment or > so... > I am not aware of museums or hobbyists who have such drives currently in a > functional state to read and write from and to 80MB (CDC 9762) or 300MB > (CDC 9766) disk packs. Maybe the CHM? ... not taking into consideration the > CHM activities related to the Xerox disk cartidge (2315-equivalent) software > archive project. > Anybody out there? Would be interesting to know. > > Best regards, > Pierre > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.digitalheritage.de From systems.glitch at gmail.com Mon Aug 12 16:42:07 2019 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 17:42:07 -0400 Subject: Control Data 9766 drive on epay In-Reply-To: <258801d55150$47651ca0$d62f55e0$@gmail.com> References: <667710347.6020915.1565631699020.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <667710347.6020915.1565631699020@mail.yahoo.com> <258801d55150$47651ca0$d62f55e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Being SMD, they could be connected to a number of things. PDP-11s, as mentioned, as well as basically anything that talked SMD. Mine were hooked up to Data General and Computer Automation gear. Thanks, Jonathan On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 4:55 PM Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > Pierre, > I would suggest that as you haven't seen one in ages, the price reflects > the rarity and the vendor is hoping for a rich collector to buy it. > > I don't know off hand of anyone who uses one. I know that the 4341 at LCM > uses emulated DASD as does the ICL 2900 at TNMOC in the UK which I think > has some EDS300 drives > > https://farm9.static.flickr.com/8314/7939054098_08c37818fe_b.jpg > > which look almost identical to the CDC drive on E-Bay, there are a few > more pics here > > https://hiveminer.com/Tags/bletchleypark%2Cicl > > There are people using smaller exchangeable drives such as DEC RL01 and > RL02 drives, and the similar drives on the IBM1130 and IBM1800 but those > are a totally different ball game... > > Dave > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of P Gebhardt via > > cctalk > > Sent: 12 August 2019 18:42 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > Subject: Control Data 9766 drive on epay > > > > Hi list, > > > > Just came across this: > > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Computing-CDC-Magnetic-Peripherals- > > Control-Data-9766-Storage- > > Module/143351908424?hash=item2160708848:g:3yEAAOSw1oJdTo9u > > > > Haven't seen one listed in years. The price lets me assume that this > offer > > addresses customers that may use these drives in a production > environment or > > so... > > I am not aware of museums or hobbyists who have such drives currently in > a > > functional state to read and write from and to 80MB (CDC 9762) or 300MB > > (CDC 9766) disk packs. Maybe the CHM? ... not taking into consideration > the > > CHM activities related to the Xerox disk cartidge (2315-equivalent) > software > > archive project. > > Anybody out there? Would be interesting to know. > > > > Best regards, > > Pierre > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > http://www.digitalheritage.de > > From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Aug 12 16:52:18 2019 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 14:52:18 -0700 Subject: Identification of an HP minicomputer Message-ID: Hi, I have sitting in my pile of stuff an HP minicomputer that I?m trying to identify (at least in terms of exactly what it is and what sort of configuration it might have). As far as I can tell, it?s an HP-1000 M-Series minicomputer (that should hopefully get us *some* details). The ?asset tag? lists the part number as 2113023-108. Looking at the back there?s space for 9 I/O cards (5 are occupied). So my question is which of the several CPUs could this be and how do I tell (for example) what the configuration is (e.g. how much memory, etc). Yes, I have looked on bitsavers, but short of disassembling the box to look at the (at least) 2 boards that are below the I/O slots, I can?t tell what?s there and I?d like to see if there?s a way to determine what this is without resorting to disassembly. Thanks. TTFN - Guy From turing at shaw.ca Mon Aug 12 16:59:28 2019 From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 15:59:28 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Identification of an HP minicomputer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <732232147.6205570.1565647168121.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Can you provide a picture of the front panel? 2113 implies a 21MX-E; the nine-slot version is a 2109 while the fourteen-slot would be a 2113. This might help - https://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=109 . From: "cctalk" To: "cctalk" Sent: Monday, August 12, 2019 2:52:18 PM Subject: Identification of an HP minicomputer Hi, I have sitting in my pile of stuff an HP minicomputer that I?m trying to identify (at least in terms of exactly what it is and what sort of configuration it might have). As far as I can tell, it?s an HP-1000 M-Series minicomputer (that should hopefully get us *some* details). The ?asset tag? lists the part number as 2113023-108. Looking at the back there?s space for 9 I/O cards (5 are occupied). So my question is which of the several CPUs could this be and how do I tell (for example) what the configuration is (e.g. how much memory, etc). Yes, I have looked on bitsavers, but short of disassembling the box to look at the (at least) 2 boards that are below the I/O slots, I can?t tell what?s there and I?d like to see if there?s a way to determine what this is without resorting to disassembly. Thanks. TTFN - Guy From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Aug 12 17:04:31 2019 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 15:04:31 -0700 Subject: Identification of an HP minicomputer In-Reply-To: <732232147.6205570.1565647168121.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> References: <732232147.6205570.1565647168121.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <20F0529A-9251-4FC3-ABF2-55B331DEDFDA@shiresoft.com> It?s a 9-slot variant that says HP-1000 M-Series on the front panel. From what I can tell the front panel appears to be the same as any of the other HP-1000 series. What I?m trying to figure out is what the actual CPU configuration is without disassembly (which I still need to figure out) so that I can actually examine the boards. Thanks. TTFN - Guy > On Aug 12, 2019, at 2:59 PM, Norman Jaffe via cctalk wrote: > > Can you provide a picture of the front panel? > 2113 implies a 21MX-E; the nine-slot version is a 2109 while the fourteen-slot would be a 2113. > This might help - https://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=109 . > > From: "cctalk" > To: "cctalk" > Sent: Monday, August 12, 2019 2:52:18 PM > Subject: Identification of an HP minicomputer > > Hi, > > I have sitting in my pile of stuff an HP minicomputer that I?m trying to identify (at least in terms of exactly what it is and what sort of configuration it might have). > > As far as I can tell, it?s an HP-1000 M-Series minicomputer (that should hopefully get us *some* details). The ?asset tag? lists the part number as 2113023-108. Looking at the back there?s space for 9 I/O cards (5 are occupied). > > So my question is which of the several CPUs could this be and how do I tell (for example) what the configuration is (e.g. how much memory, etc). > > Yes, I have looked on bitsavers, but short of disassembling the box to look at the (at least) 2 boards that are below the I/O slots, I can?t tell what?s there and I?d like to see if there?s a way to determine what this is without resorting to disassembly. > > Thanks. > > TTFN - Guy From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 12 17:11:01 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 15:11:01 -0700 Subject: Control Data 9766 drive on epay In-Reply-To: References: <667710347.6020915.1565631699020.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <667710347.6020915.1565631699020@mail.yahoo.com> <9a75eded-8a78-18b0-9d1f-e175781d22ea@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On 8/12/19 12:31 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > It was an uncommon option for lower end Cyber 180s. > Don't know the date of the unit shown, but in the early-mid 1970s, we used acres of 844-21(IIRC ~100MB) and 844-41 drives (IIRC ~200MB). Don't know what the OEM model would have been. And Cyber 180 is outside of my timeframe. ..and they were damned twitchy if you were unfortunate enough to mount a damaged pack. --Chuck From turing at shaw.ca Mon Aug 12 17:21:12 2019 From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 16:21:12 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Identification of an HP minicomputer In-Reply-To: <20F0529A-9251-4FC3-ABF2-55B331DEDFDA@shiresoft.com> References: <732232147.6205570.1565647168121.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <20F0529A-9251-4FC3-ABF2-55B331DEDFDA@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <2094489944.6247370.1565648472261.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Perhaps these will help? https://www.hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?hwimg=108 http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/hewlett-packard/hp-21mx From: "Guy Sotomayor Jr" To: "myself" , "cctalk" Sent: Monday, August 12, 2019 3:04:31 PM Subject: Re: Identification of an HP minicomputer It?s a 9-slot variant that says HP-1000 M-Series on the front panel. From what I can tell the front panel appears to be the same as any of the other HP-1000 series. What I?m trying to figure out is what the actual CPU configuration is without disassembly (which I still need to figure out) so that I can actually examine the boards. Thanks. TTFN - Guy > On Aug 12, 2019, at 2:59 PM, Norman Jaffe via cctalk wrote: > > Can you provide a picture of the front panel? > 2113 implies a 21MX-E; the nine-slot version is a 2109 while the fourteen-slot would be a 2113. > This might help - https://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=109 . > > From: "cctalk" > To: "cctalk" > Sent: Monday, August 12, 2019 2:52:18 PM > Subject: Identification of an HP minicomputer > > Hi, > > I have sitting in my pile of stuff an HP minicomputer that I?m trying to identify (at least in terms of exactly what it is and what sort of configuration it might have). > > As far as I can tell, it?s an HP-1000 M-Series minicomputer (that should hopefully get us *some* details). The ?asset tag? lists the part number as 2113023-108. Looking at the back there?s space for 9 I/O cards (5 are occupied). > > So my question is which of the several CPUs could this be and how do I tell (for example) what the configuration is (e.g. how much memory, etc). > > Yes, I have looked on bitsavers, but short of disassembling the box to look at the (at least) 2 boards that are below the I/O slots, I can?t tell what?s there and I?d like to see if there?s a way to determine what this is without resorting to disassembly. > > Thanks. > > TTFN - Guy From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Aug 12 17:29:31 2019 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 18:29:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Identification of an HP minicomputer In-Reply-To: <20F0529A-9251-4FC3-ABF2-55B331DEDFDA@shiresoft.com> References: <732232147.6205570.1565647168121.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <20F0529A-9251-4FC3-ABF2-55B331DEDFDA@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: The original M-Series machines were the 2105A and the 2108A (9-slot), which sound like what you have. The early machines didn't say "M-Series" on the front panel, and had a different lock than the later models: http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/HP/2108A/HP2108A-8L.jpg (my model 2108A) Early models had the power switch on the back panel, while later models had it behind the front panel. It sounds like you might have a later model M. It would be helpful to see a closeup of the read card cage (with readable labels), as well as the front card cage. The front card cage is accessed by unlocking the panel and removing the cover on the right side over the card cage. That's where the memory boards live. On Mon, 12 Aug 2019, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: > It?s a 9-slot variant that says HP-1000 M-Series on the front panel. From what I can tell the front panel appears to be the same as any of the other HP-1000 series. > > What I?m trying to figure out is what the actual CPU configuration is without disassembly (which I still need to figure out) so that I can actually examine the boards. > > Thanks. > > TTFN - Guy > >> On Aug 12, 2019, at 2:59 PM, Norman Jaffe via cctalk wrote: >> >> Can you provide a picture of the front panel? >> 2113 implies a 21MX-E; the nine-slot version is a 2109 while the fourteen-slot would be a 2113. >> This might help - https://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=109 . >> >> From: "cctalk" >> To: "cctalk" >> Sent: Monday, August 12, 2019 2:52:18 PM >> Subject: Identification of an HP minicomputer >> >> Hi, >> >> I have sitting in my pile of stuff an HP minicomputer that I?m trying to identify (at least in terms of exactly what it is and what sort of configuration it might have). >> >> As far as I can tell, it?s an HP-1000 M-Series minicomputer (that should hopefully get us *some* details). The ?asset tag? lists the part number as 2113023-108. Looking at the back there?s space for 9 I/O cards (5 are occupied). >> >> So my question is which of the several CPUs could this be and how do I tell (for example) what the configuration is (e.g. how much memory, etc). >> >> Yes, I have looked on bitsavers, but short of disassembling the box to look at the (at least) 2 boards that are below the I/O slots, I can?t tell what?s there and I?d like to see if there?s a way to determine what this is without resorting to disassembly. >> >> Thanks. >> >> TTFN - Guy > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Aug 12 17:34:23 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 22:34:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Identification of an HP minicomputer In-Reply-To: <2094489944.6247370.1565648472261.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> References: <732232147.6205570.1565647168121.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <20F0529A-9251-4FC3-ABF2-55B331DEDFDA@shiresoft.com> <2094489944.6247370.1565648472261.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <396920734.3230432.1565649263638@mail.yahoo.com> behind front panel is memory..... Ed#? ? ?ps? back is? io In a message dated 8/12/2019 3:21:20 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: Perhaps these will help? https://www.hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?hwimg=108 http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/hewlett-packard/hp-21mx From: "Guy Sotomayor Jr" To: "myself" , "cctalk" Sent: Monday, August 12, 2019 3:04:31 PM Subject: Re: Identification of an HP minicomputer It?s a 9-slot variant that says HP-1000 M-Series on the front panel. From what I can tell the front panel appears to be the same as any of the other HP-1000 series. What I?m trying to figure out is what the actual CPU configuration is without disassembly (which I still need to figure out) so that I can actually examine the boards. Thanks. TTFN - Guy > On Aug 12, 2019, at 2:59 PM, Norman Jaffe via cctalk wrote: > > Can you provide a picture of the front panel? > 2113 implies a 21MX-E; the nine-slot version is a 2109 while the fourteen-slot would be a 2113. > This might help - https://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=109 . > > From: "cctalk" > To: "cctalk" > Sent: Monday, August 12, 2019 2:52:18 PM > Subject: Identification of an HP minicomputer > > Hi, > > I have sitting in my pile of stuff an HP minicomputer that I?m trying to identify (at least in terms of exactly what it is and what sort of configuration it might have). > > As far as I can tell, it?s an HP-1000 M-Series minicomputer (that should hopefully get us *some* details). The ?asset tag? lists the part number as 2113023-108. Looking at the back there?s space for 9 I/O cards (5 are occupied). > > So my question is which of the several CPUs could this be and how do I tell (for example) what the configuration is (e.g. how much memory, etc). > > Yes, I have looked on bitsavers, but short of disassembling the box to look at the (at least) 2 boards that are below the I/O slots, I can?t tell what?s there and I?d like to see if there?s a way to determine what this is without resorting to disassembly. > > Thanks. > > TTFN - Guy From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Aug 12 17:34:23 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 22:34:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Identification of an HP minicomputer In-Reply-To: <2094489944.6247370.1565648472261.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> References: <732232147.6205570.1565647168121.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <20F0529A-9251-4FC3-ABF2-55B331DEDFDA@shiresoft.com> <2094489944.6247370.1565648472261.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <396920734.3230432.1565649263638@mail.yahoo.com> behind front panel is memory..... Ed#? ? ?ps? back is? io In a message dated 8/12/2019 3:21:20 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: Perhaps these will help? https://www.hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?hwimg=108 http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/hewlett-packard/hp-21mx From: "Guy Sotomayor Jr" To: "myself" , "cctalk" Sent: Monday, August 12, 2019 3:04:31 PM Subject: Re: Identification of an HP minicomputer It?s a 9-slot variant that says HP-1000 M-Series on the front panel. From what I can tell the front panel appears to be the same as any of the other HP-1000 series. What I?m trying to figure out is what the actual CPU configuration is without disassembly (which I still need to figure out) so that I can actually examine the boards. Thanks. TTFN - Guy > On Aug 12, 2019, at 2:59 PM, Norman Jaffe via cctalk wrote: > > Can you provide a picture of the front panel? > 2113 implies a 21MX-E; the nine-slot version is a 2109 while the fourteen-slot would be a 2113. > This might help - https://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=109 . > > From: "cctalk" > To: "cctalk" > Sent: Monday, August 12, 2019 2:52:18 PM > Subject: Identification of an HP minicomputer > > Hi, > > I have sitting in my pile of stuff an HP minicomputer that I?m trying to identify (at least in terms of exactly what it is and what sort of configuration it might have). > > As far as I can tell, it?s an HP-1000 M-Series minicomputer (that should hopefully get us *some* details). The ?asset tag? lists the part number as 2113023-108. Looking at the back there?s space for 9 I/O cards (5 are occupied). > > So my question is which of the several CPUs could this be and how do I tell (for example) what the configuration is (e.g. how much memory, etc). > > Yes, I have looked on bitsavers, but short of disassembling the box to look at the (at least) 2 boards that are below the I/O slots, I can?t tell what?s there and I?d like to see if there?s a way to determine what this is without resorting to disassembly. > > Thanks. > > TTFN - Guy From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Aug 12 17:48:24 2019 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 15:48:24 -0700 Subject: Identification of an HP minicomputer In-Reply-To: References: <732232147.6205570.1565647168121.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <20F0529A-9251-4FC3-ABF2-55B331DEDFDA@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: Thanks all! The trick was opening up the front panel (I?m used to keylocks that are only electrical and not just physical). Here?s the HP label with the options: CPU 2103 MEM BP 1713 IO BP 1727 Accessories 12992B 12944B 2102B 12897B 12892B 12746A In opening the panel on the front card cage, I saw that it only had 16K of memory. :-( I?ll see about firing it up and if that goes well (anyone have suggestions for this type of mini?) I?ll see if I find more memory and suitable peripherals. Thanks. TTFN - Guy > On Aug 12, 2019, at 3:29 PM, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: > > > The original M-Series machines were the 2105A and the 2108A (9-slot), which sound like what you have. The early machines didn't say "M-Series" on the front panel, and had a different lock than the later models: > > http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/HP/2108A/HP2108A-8L.jpg (my model 2108A) > > Early models had the power switch on the back panel, while later models had it behind the front panel. > > It sounds like you might have a later model M. It would be helpful to see a closeup of the read card cage (with readable labels), as well as the front card cage. The front card cage is accessed by unlocking the panel and removing the cover on the right side over the card cage. That's where the memory boards live. > > On Mon, 12 Aug 2019, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: > >> It?s a 9-slot variant that says HP-1000 M-Series on the front panel. From what I can tell the front panel appears to be the same as any of the other HP-1000 series. >> >> What I?m trying to figure out is what the actual CPU configuration is without disassembly (which I still need to figure out) so that I can actually examine the boards. >> >> Thanks. >> >> TTFN - Guy >> >>> On Aug 12, 2019, at 2:59 PM, Norman Jaffe via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> Can you provide a picture of the front panel? >>> 2113 implies a 21MX-E; the nine-slot version is a 2109 while the fourteen-slot would be a 2113. >>> This might help - https://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=109 . >>> >>> From: "cctalk" >>> To: "cctalk" >>> Sent: Monday, August 12, 2019 2:52:18 PM >>> Subject: Identification of an HP minicomputer >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I have sitting in my pile of stuff an HP minicomputer that I?m trying to identify (at least in terms of exactly what it is and what sort of configuration it might have). >>> >>> As far as I can tell, it?s an HP-1000 M-Series minicomputer (that should hopefully get us *some* details). The ?asset tag? lists the part number as 2113023-108. Looking at the back there?s space for 9 I/O cards (5 are occupied). >>> >>> So my question is which of the several CPUs could this be and how do I tell (for example) what the configuration is (e.g. how much memory, etc). >>> >>> Yes, I have looked on bitsavers, but short of disassembling the box to look at the (at least) 2 boards that are below the I/O slots, I can?t tell what?s there and I?d like to see if there?s a way to determine what this is without resorting to disassembly. >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> TTFN - Guy >> >> > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Aug 12 18:07:29 2019 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 19:07:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Identification of an HP minicomputer In-Reply-To: References: <732232147.6205570.1565647168121.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <20F0529A-9251-4FC3-ABF2-55B331DEDFDA@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: 2102B is the Standard Performance Memory Controller 12745A is a 64KB (32KW) memory board 12897B is a DCPC (Dual Channel Port Controller) 12992B is a 7905/7906/7920/7925 disc loader PROM 12892B is a Memory Protect board 12944B is the Power Fail Recovery System On Mon, 12 Aug 2019, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > Thanks all! > > The trick was opening up the front panel (I?m used to keylocks that are only electrical and not just physical). > > Here?s the HP label with the options: > CPU 2103 > MEM BP 1713 > IO BP 1727 > Accessories > 12992B > 12944B > 2102B > 12897B > 12892B > 12746A > > In opening the panel on the front card cage, I saw that it only had 16K of memory. :-( > > I?ll see about firing it up and if that goes well (anyone have suggestions for this type of mini?) I?ll see if I find more memory and suitable peripherals. > > Thanks. > > TTFN - Guy > > >> On Aug 12, 2019, at 3:29 PM, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> The original M-Series machines were the 2105A and the 2108A (9-slot), which sound like what you have. The early machines didn't say "M-Series" on the front panel, and had a different lock than the later models: >> >> http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/HP/2108A/HP2108A-8L.jpg (my model 2108A) >> >> Early models had the power switch on the back panel, while later models had it behind the front panel. >> >> It sounds like you might have a later model M. It would be helpful to see a closeup of the read card cage (with readable labels), as well as the front card cage. The front card cage is accessed by unlocking the panel and removing the cover on the right side over the card cage. That's where the memory boards live. >> >> On Mon, 12 Aug 2019, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: >> >>> It?s a 9-slot variant that says HP-1000 M-Series on the front panel. From what I can tell the front panel appears to be the same as any of the other HP-1000 series. >>> >>> What I?m trying to figure out is what the actual CPU configuration is without disassembly (which I still need to figure out) so that I can actually examine the boards. >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> TTFN - Guy >>> >>>> On Aug 12, 2019, at 2:59 PM, Norman Jaffe via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>>> Can you provide a picture of the front panel? >>>> 2113 implies a 21MX-E; the nine-slot version is a 2109 while the fourteen-slot would be a 2113. >>>> This might help - https://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=109 . >>>> >>>> From: "cctalk" >>>> To: "cctalk" >>>> Sent: Monday, August 12, 2019 2:52:18 PM >>>> Subject: Identification of an HP minicomputer >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> I have sitting in my pile of stuff an HP minicomputer that I?m trying to identify (at least in terms of exactly what it is and what sort of configuration it might have). >>>> >>>> As far as I can tell, it?s an HP-1000 M-Series minicomputer (that should hopefully get us *some* details). The ?asset tag? lists the part number as 2113023-108. Looking at the back there?s space for 9 I/O cards (5 are occupied). >>>> >>>> So my question is which of the several CPUs could this be and how do I tell (for example) what the configuration is (e.g. how much memory, etc). >>>> >>>> Yes, I have looked on bitsavers, but short of disassembling the box to look at the (at least) 2 boards that are below the I/O slots, I can?t tell what?s there and I?d like to see if there?s a way to determine what this is without resorting to disassembly. >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> TTFN - Guy >>> >>> >> >> Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us >> Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Aug 12 18:13:20 2019 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 16:13:20 -0700 Subject: Identification of an HP minicomputer In-Reply-To: References: <732232147.6205570.1565647168121.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <20F0529A-9251-4FC3-ABF2-55B331DEDFDA@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: Except that I don?t have a 12745A memory board, I believe it?s a 12746A which I think I saw was a 16K board. Thanks. TTFN - Guy > On Aug 12, 2019, at 4:07 PM, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: > > > 2102B is the Standard Performance Memory Controller > 12745A is a 64KB (32KW) memory board > 12897B is a DCPC (Dual Channel Port Controller) > 12992B is a 7905/7906/7920/7925 disc loader PROM > 12892B is a Memory Protect board > 12944B is the Power Fail Recovery System > > On Mon, 12 Aug 2019, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > >> Thanks all! >> >> The trick was opening up the front panel (I?m used to keylocks that are only electrical and not just physical). >> >> Here?s the HP label with the options: >> CPU 2103 >> MEM BP 1713 >> IO BP 1727 >> Accessories >> 12992B >> 12944B >> 2102B >> 12897B >> 12892B >> 12746A >> >> In opening the panel on the front card cage, I saw that it only had 16K of memory. :-( >> >> I?ll see about firing it up and if that goes well (anyone have suggestions for this type of mini?) I?ll see if I find more memory and suitable peripherals. >> >> Thanks. >> >> TTFN - Guy >> >> >>> On Aug 12, 2019, at 3:29 PM, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> >>> The original M-Series machines were the 2105A and the 2108A (9-slot), which sound like what you have. The early machines didn't say "M-Series" on the front panel, and had a different lock than the later models: >>> >>> http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/HP/2108A/HP2108A-8L.jpg (my model 2108A) >>> >>> Early models had the power switch on the back panel, while later models had it behind the front panel. >>> >>> It sounds like you might have a later model M. It would be helpful to see a closeup of the read card cage (with readable labels), as well as the front card cage. The front card cage is accessed by unlocking the panel and removing the cover on the right side over the card cage. That's where the memory boards live. >>> >>> On Mon, 12 Aug 2019, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: >>> >>>> It?s a 9-slot variant that says HP-1000 M-Series on the front panel. From what I can tell the front panel appears to be the same as any of the other HP-1000 series. >>>> >>>> What I?m trying to figure out is what the actual CPU configuration is without disassembly (which I still need to figure out) so that I can actually examine the boards. >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> TTFN - Guy >>>> >>>>> On Aug 12, 2019, at 2:59 PM, Norman Jaffe via cctalk wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Can you provide a picture of the front panel? >>>>> 2113 implies a 21MX-E; the nine-slot version is a 2109 while the fourteen-slot would be a 2113. >>>>> This might help - https://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=109 . >>>>> >>>>> From: "cctalk" >>>>> To: "cctalk" >>>>> Sent: Monday, August 12, 2019 2:52:18 PM >>>>> Subject: Identification of an HP minicomputer >>>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> I have sitting in my pile of stuff an HP minicomputer that I?m trying to identify (at least in terms of exactly what it is and what sort of configuration it might have). >>>>> >>>>> As far as I can tell, it?s an HP-1000 M-Series minicomputer (that should hopefully get us *some* details). The ?asset tag? lists the part number as 2113023-108. Looking at the back there?s space for 9 I/O cards (5 are occupied). >>>>> >>>>> So my question is which of the several CPUs could this be and how do I tell (for example) what the configuration is (e.g. how much memory, etc). >>>>> >>>>> Yes, I have looked on bitsavers, but short of disassembling the box to look at the (at least) 2 boards that are below the I/O slots, I can?t tell what?s there and I?d like to see if there?s a way to determine what this is without resorting to disassembly. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks. >>>>> >>>>> TTFN - Guy >>>> >>>> >>> >>> Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us >>> Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ >> >> > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Aug 12 18:18:40 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 19:18:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC VT20 boot device Message-ID: <20190812231840.BF68118C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > I didn't fully disassamble the program I have now done so; the -YK is _exactly_ the same as the -YA (the later ones, which are minorly different from what's in the manual), except that the HSR address (177550) has been replaced as the primary device address by that of DL11 #1, in the second block of DL11 addresses (175610). In other words, the ROM is prepared to load something in bootstrap loader format (which I have documented here: http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11_Bootstrap_Loader the one program known in this format is the absolute loader) over the non-console serial line. Noel From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Aug 12 18:25:25 2019 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 19:25:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Identification of an HP minicomputer In-Reply-To: References: <732232147.6205570.1565647168121.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <20F0529A-9251-4FC3-ABF2-55B331DEDFDA@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: Sorry, I mistyped. 12746A is a 64KB (32KW) memory module. On Mon, 12 Aug 2019, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > Except that I don?t have a 12745A memory board, I believe it?s a 12746A which I think I saw was a 16K board. > > Thanks. > > TTFN - Guy > >> On Aug 12, 2019, at 4:07 PM, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> 2102B is the Standard Performance Memory Controller >> 12745A is a 64KB (32KW) memory board >> 12897B is a DCPC (Dual Channel Port Controller) >> 12992B is a 7905/7906/7920/7925 disc loader PROM >> 12892B is a Memory Protect board >> 12944B is the Power Fail Recovery System >> >> On Mon, 12 Aug 2019, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: >> >>> Thanks all! >>> >>> The trick was opening up the front panel (I?m used to keylocks that are only electrical and not just physical). >>> >>> Here?s the HP label with the options: >>> CPU 2103 >>> MEM BP 1713 >>> IO BP 1727 >>> Accessories >>> 12992B >>> 12944B >>> 2102B >>> 12897B >>> 12892B >>> 12746A >>> >>> In opening the panel on the front card cage, I saw that it only had 16K of memory. :-( >>> >>> I?ll see about firing it up and if that goes well (anyone have suggestions for this type of mini?) I?ll see if I find more memory and suitable peripherals. >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> TTFN - Guy >>> >>> >>>> On Aug 12, 2019, at 3:29 PM, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> The original M-Series machines were the 2105A and the 2108A (9-slot), which sound like what you have. The early machines didn't say "M-Series" on the front panel, and had a different lock than the later models: >>>> >>>> http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/HP/2108A/HP2108A-8L.jpg (my model 2108A) >>>> >>>> Early models had the power switch on the back panel, while later models had it behind the front panel. >>>> >>>> It sounds like you might have a later model M. It would be helpful to see a closeup of the read card cage (with readable labels), as well as the front card cage. The front card cage is accessed by unlocking the panel and removing the cover on the right side over the card cage. That's where the memory boards live. >>>> >>>> On Mon, 12 Aug 2019, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>>>> It?s a 9-slot variant that says HP-1000 M-Series on the front panel. From what I can tell the front panel appears to be the same as any of the other HP-1000 series. >>>>> >>>>> What I?m trying to figure out is what the actual CPU configuration is without disassembly (which I still need to figure out) so that I can actually examine the boards. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks. >>>>> >>>>> TTFN - Guy >>>>> >>>>>> On Aug 12, 2019, at 2:59 PM, Norman Jaffe via cctalk wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Can you provide a picture of the front panel? >>>>>> 2113 implies a 21MX-E; the nine-slot version is a 2109 while the fourteen-slot would be a 2113. >>>>>> This might help - https://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=109 . >>>>>> >>>>>> From: "cctalk" >>>>>> To: "cctalk" >>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 12, 2019 2:52:18 PM >>>>>> Subject: Identification of an HP minicomputer >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> I have sitting in my pile of stuff an HP minicomputer that I?m trying to identify (at least in terms of exactly what it is and what sort of configuration it might have). >>>>>> >>>>>> As far as I can tell, it?s an HP-1000 M-Series minicomputer (that should hopefully get us *some* details). The ?asset tag? lists the part number as 2113023-108. Looking at the back there?s space for 9 I/O cards (5 are occupied). >>>>>> >>>>>> So my question is which of the several CPUs could this be and how do I tell (for example) what the configuration is (e.g. how much memory, etc). >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes, I have looked on bitsavers, but short of disassembling the box to look at the (at least) 2 boards that are below the I/O slots, I can?t tell what?s there and I?d like to see if there?s a way to determine what this is without resorting to disassembly. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>> >>>>>> TTFN - Guy >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us >>>> Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ >>> >>> >> >> Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us >> Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Aug 12 18:31:13 2019 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 16:31:13 -0700 Subject: Identification of an HP minicomputer In-Reply-To: References: <732232147.6205570.1565647168121.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <20F0529A-9251-4FC3-ABF2-55B331DEDFDA@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: OK, thanks. Is there a sheet somewhere that I can use to decode all of these part numbers? TTFN - Guy > On Aug 12, 2019, at 4:25 PM, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: > > > Sorry, I mistyped. 12746A is a 64KB (32KW) memory module. > > On Mon, 12 Aug 2019, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > >> Except that I don?t have a 12745A memory board, I believe it?s a 12746A which I think I saw was a 16K board. >> >> Thanks. >> >> TTFN - Guy >> >>> On Aug 12, 2019, at 4:07 PM, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> >>> 2102B is the Standard Performance Memory Controller >>> 12745A is a 64KB (32KW) memory board >>> 12897B is a DCPC (Dual Channel Port Controller) >>> 12992B is a 7905/7906/7920/7925 disc loader PROM >>> 12892B is a Memory Protect board >>> 12944B is the Power Fail Recovery System >>> >>> On Mon, 12 Aug 2019, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks all! >>>> >>>> The trick was opening up the front panel (I?m used to keylocks that are only electrical and not just physical). >>>> >>>> Here?s the HP label with the options: >>>> CPU 2103 >>>> MEM BP 1713 >>>> IO BP 1727 >>>> Accessories >>>> 12992B >>>> 12944B >>>> 2102B >>>> 12897B >>>> 12892B >>>> 12746A >>>> >>>> In opening the panel on the front card cage, I saw that it only had 16K of memory. :-( >>>> >>>> I?ll see about firing it up and if that goes well (anyone have suggestions for this type of mini?) I?ll see if I find more memory and suitable peripherals. >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> TTFN - Guy >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Aug 12, 2019, at 3:29 PM, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The original M-Series machines were the 2105A and the 2108A (9-slot), which sound like what you have. The early machines didn't say "M-Series" on the front panel, and had a different lock than the later models: >>>>> >>>>> http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/HP/2108A/HP2108A-8L.jpg (my model 2108A) >>>>> >>>>> Early models had the power switch on the back panel, while later models had it behind the front panel. >>>>> >>>>> It sounds like you might have a later model M. It would be helpful to see a closeup of the read card cage (with readable labels), as well as the front card cage. The front card cage is accessed by unlocking the panel and removing the cover on the right side over the card cage. That's where the memory boards live. >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, 12 Aug 2019, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> It?s a 9-slot variant that says HP-1000 M-Series on the front panel. From what I can tell the front panel appears to be the same as any of the other HP-1000 series. >>>>>> >>>>>> What I?m trying to figure out is what the actual CPU configuration is without disassembly (which I still need to figure out) so that I can actually examine the boards. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>> >>>>>> TTFN - Guy >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Aug 12, 2019, at 2:59 PM, Norman Jaffe via cctalk wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Can you provide a picture of the front panel? >>>>>>> 2113 implies a 21MX-E; the nine-slot version is a 2109 while the fourteen-slot would be a 2113. >>>>>>> This might help - https://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=109 . >>>>>>> >>>>>>> From: "cctalk" >>>>>>> To: "cctalk" >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 12, 2019 2:52:18 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Identification of an HP minicomputer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have sitting in my pile of stuff an HP minicomputer that I?m trying to identify (at least in terms of exactly what it is and what sort of configuration it might have). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As far as I can tell, it?s an HP-1000 M-Series minicomputer (that should hopefully get us *some* details). The ?asset tag? lists the part number as 2113023-108. Looking at the back there?s space for 9 I/O cards (5 are occupied). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So my question is which of the several CPUs could this be and how do I tell (for example) what the configuration is (e.g. how much memory, etc). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes, I have looked on bitsavers, but short of disassembling the box to look at the (at least) 2 boards that are below the I/O slots, I can?t tell what?s there and I?d like to see if there?s a way to determine what this is without resorting to disassembly. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> TTFN - Guy >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us >>>>> Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ >>>> >>>> >>> >>> Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us >>> Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ >> >> > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From guykd at optusnet.com.au Mon Aug 12 18:38:50 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 09:38:50 +1000 Subject: Identification of an HP minicomputer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190813093850.0126fdc0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Hi Guy, If you didn't see this, it may be of interest: http://everist.org/NobLog/20131112_HP_1000_minicomputer_teardown.htm It won't help you identify your system model, but could be of help with disassembly. Funny coincidence that we have the same name, and similar HP-1000 minicomputers. Sigh... 2019 slips by, and I still haven't returned to that project. Guy At 02:52 PM 12/08/2019 -0700, you wrote: >Hi, > >I have sitting in my pile of stuff an HP minicomputer that I???m trying to identify (at least in terms of exactly what it is and what sort of configuration it might have). > >As far as I can tell, it???s an HP-1000 M-Series minicomputer (that should hopefully get us *some* details). The ???asset tag??? lists the part number as 2113023-108. Looking at the back there???s space for 9 I/O cards (5 are occupied). > >So my question is which of the several CPUs could this be and how do I tell (for example) what the configuration is (e.g. how much memory, etc). > >Yes, I have looked on bitsavers, but short of disassembling the box to look at the (at least) 2 boards that are below the I/O slots, I can???t tell what???s there and I???d like to see if there???s a way to determine what this is without resorting to disassembly. > >Thanks. > >TTFN - Guy From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Aug 12 18:50:33 2019 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 19:50:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Identification of an HP minicomputer In-Reply-To: References: <732232147.6205570.1565647168121.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <20F0529A-9251-4FC3-ABF2-55B331DEDFDA@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: Not a single reference, but these two directories should provide most of what you need: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/1000/ http://hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?hwdoc=108 The CE Handbook, Loader ROMS, Interfaces, and Standard Memory manuals will all be useful. On Mon, 12 Aug 2019, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > OK, thanks. > > Is there a sheet somewhere that I can use to decode all of these part numbers? > > TTFN - Guy > >> On Aug 12, 2019, at 4:25 PM, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> Sorry, I mistyped. 12746A is a 64KB (32KW) memory module. >> >> On Mon, 12 Aug 2019, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: >> >>> Except that I don?t have a 12745A memory board, I believe it?s a 12746A which I think I saw was a 16K board. >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> TTFN - Guy >>> >>>> On Aug 12, 2019, at 4:07 PM, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> 2102B is the Standard Performance Memory Controller >>>> 12745A is a 64KB (32KW) memory board >>>> 12897B is a DCPC (Dual Channel Port Controller) >>>> 12992B is a 7905/7906/7920/7925 disc loader PROM >>>> 12892B is a Memory Protect board >>>> 12944B is the Power Fail Recovery System >>>> >>>> On Mon, 12 Aug 2019, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: >>>> >>>>> Thanks all! >>>>> >>>>> The trick was opening up the front panel (I?m used to keylocks that are only electrical and not just physical). >>>>> >>>>> Here?s the HP label with the options: >>>>> CPU 2103 >>>>> MEM BP 1713 >>>>> IO BP 1727 >>>>> Accessories >>>>> 12992B >>>>> 12944B >>>>> 2102B >>>>> 12897B >>>>> 12892B >>>>> 12746A >>>>> >>>>> In opening the panel on the front card cage, I saw that it only had 16K of memory. :-( >>>>> >>>>> I?ll see about firing it up and if that goes well (anyone have suggestions for this type of mini?) I?ll see if I find more memory and suitable peripherals. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks. >>>>> >>>>> TTFN - Guy >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On Aug 12, 2019, at 3:29 PM, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> The original M-Series machines were the 2105A and the 2108A (9-slot), which sound like what you have. The early machines didn't say "M-Series" on the front panel, and had a different lock than the later models: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/HP/2108A/HP2108A-8L.jpg (my model 2108A) >>>>>> >>>>>> Early models had the power switch on the back panel, while later models had it behind the front panel. >>>>>> >>>>>> It sounds like you might have a later model M. It would be helpful to see a closeup of the read card cage (with readable labels), as well as the front card cage. The front card cage is accessed by unlocking the panel and removing the cover on the right side over the card cage. That's where the memory boards live. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, 12 Aug 2019, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> It?s a 9-slot variant that says HP-1000 M-Series on the front panel. From what I can tell the front panel appears to be the same as any of the other HP-1000 series. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What I?m trying to figure out is what the actual CPU configuration is without disassembly (which I still need to figure out) so that I can actually examine the boards. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> TTFN - Guy >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Aug 12, 2019, at 2:59 PM, Norman Jaffe via cctalk wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Can you provide a picture of the front panel? >>>>>>>> 2113 implies a 21MX-E; the nine-slot version is a 2109 while the fourteen-slot would be a 2113. >>>>>>>> This might help - https://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=109 . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> From: "cctalk" >>>>>>>> To: "cctalk" >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 12, 2019 2:52:18 PM >>>>>>>> Subject: Identification of an HP minicomputer >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have sitting in my pile of stuff an HP minicomputer that I?m trying to identify (at least in terms of exactly what it is and what sort of configuration it might have). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As far as I can tell, it?s an HP-1000 M-Series minicomputer (that should hopefully get us *some* details). The ?asset tag? lists the part number as 2113023-108. Looking at the back there?s space for 9 I/O cards (5 are occupied). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> So my question is which of the several CPUs could this be and how do I tell (for example) what the configuration is (e.g. how much memory, etc). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yes, I have looked on bitsavers, but short of disassembling the box to look at the (at least) 2 boards that are below the I/O slots, I can?t tell what?s there and I?d like to see if there?s a way to determine what this is without resorting to disassembly. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> TTFN - Guy >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us >>>>>> Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us >>>> Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ >>> >>> >> >> Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us >> Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Aug 12 18:53:24 2019 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 16:53:24 -0700 Subject: Identification of an HP minicomputer In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190813093850.0126fdc0@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20190813093850.0126fdc0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: Fun! I have 4 HP minis at the moment: 2116C that was running the last time I checked 2 2114B that are in various states of ?not working?. Interestingly the most promising one (e.g. the one that hasn?t had various parts clipped or otherwise buggered) is where I can?t get it to power up at all (not even the fan). So I have to go and dig into the power supply a bit more?it could also be that the power cord is wired up incorrectly since it uses an old style hubble twist-lock that I may not have wired up quite right) HP-1000 M Series TTFN - Guy > On Aug 12, 2019, at 4:38 PM, Guy Dunphy wrote: > > Hi Guy, > > If you didn't see this, it may be of interest: > http://everist.org/NobLog/20131112_HP_1000_minicomputer_teardown.htm > > It won't help you identify your system model, but could be of help with disassembly. > > Funny coincidence that we have the same name, and similar HP-1000 minicomputers. > > Sigh... 2019 slips by, and I still haven't returned to that project. > > Guy > > > At 02:52 PM 12/08/2019 -0700, you wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I have sitting in my pile of stuff an HP minicomputer that I???m trying to identify (at least in terms of exactly what it is and what sort of configuration it might have). >> >> As far as I can tell, it???s an HP-1000 M-Series minicomputer (that should hopefully get us *some* details). The ???asset tag??? lists the part number as 2113023-108. Looking at the back there???s space for 9 I/O cards (5 are occupied). >> >> So my question is which of the several CPUs could this be and how do I tell (for example) what the configuration is (e.g. how much memory, etc). >> >> Yes, I have looked on bitsavers, but short of disassembling the box to look at the (at least) 2 boards that are below the I/O slots, I can???t tell what???s there and I???d like to see if there???s a way to determine what this is without resorting to disassembly. >> >> Thanks. >> >> TTFN - Guy From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Aug 12 18:53:55 2019 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 16:53:55 -0700 Subject: Identification of an HP minicomputer In-Reply-To: References: <732232147.6205570.1565647168121.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <20F0529A-9251-4FC3-ABF2-55B331DEDFDA@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: Cool! Thanks. TTFN - Guy > On Aug 12, 2019, at 4:50 PM, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: > > > Not a single reference, but these two directories should provide most of what you need: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/1000/ > > http://hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?hwdoc=108 > > The CE Handbook, Loader ROMS, Interfaces, and Standard Memory manuals will all be useful. > > > On Mon, 12 Aug 2019, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > >> OK, thanks. >> >> Is there a sheet somewhere that I can use to decode all of these part numbers? >> >> TTFN - Guy >> >>> On Aug 12, 2019, at 4:25 PM, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> >>> Sorry, I mistyped. 12746A is a 64KB (32KW) memory module. >>> >>> On Mon, 12 Aug 2019, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: >>> >>>> Except that I don?t have a 12745A memory board, I believe it?s a 12746A which I think I saw was a 16K board. >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> TTFN - Guy >>>> >>>>> On Aug 12, 2019, at 4:07 PM, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2102B is the Standard Performance Memory Controller >>>>> 12745A is a 64KB (32KW) memory board >>>>> 12897B is a DCPC (Dual Channel Port Controller) >>>>> 12992B is a 7905/7906/7920/7925 disc loader PROM >>>>> 12892B is a Memory Protect board >>>>> 12944B is the Power Fail Recovery System >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, 12 Aug 2019, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Thanks all! >>>>>> >>>>>> The trick was opening up the front panel (I?m used to keylocks that are only electrical and not just physical). >>>>>> >>>>>> Here?s the HP label with the options: >>>>>> CPU 2103 >>>>>> MEM BP 1713 >>>>>> IO BP 1727 >>>>>> Accessories >>>>>> 12992B >>>>>> 12944B >>>>>> 2102B >>>>>> 12897B >>>>>> 12892B >>>>>> 12746A >>>>>> >>>>>> In opening the panel on the front card cage, I saw that it only had 16K of memory. :-( >>>>>> >>>>>> I?ll see about firing it up and if that goes well (anyone have suggestions for this type of mini?) I?ll see if I find more memory and suitable peripherals. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>> >>>>>> TTFN - Guy >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Aug 12, 2019, at 3:29 PM, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The original M-Series machines were the 2105A and the 2108A (9-slot), which sound like what you have. The early machines didn't say "M-Series" on the front panel, and had a different lock than the later models: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/HP/2108A/HP2108A-8L.jpg (my model 2108A) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Early models had the power switch on the back panel, while later models had it behind the front panel. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It sounds like you might have a later model M. It would be helpful to see a closeup of the read card cage (with readable labels), as well as the front card cage. The front card cage is accessed by unlocking the panel and removing the cover on the right side over the card cage. That's where the memory boards live. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, 12 Aug 2019, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It?s a 9-slot variant that says HP-1000 M-Series on the front panel. From what I can tell the front panel appears to be the same as any of the other HP-1000 series. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What I?m trying to figure out is what the actual CPU configuration is without disassembly (which I still need to figure out) so that I can actually examine the boards. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> TTFN - Guy >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Aug 12, 2019, at 2:59 PM, Norman Jaffe via cctalk wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Can you provide a picture of the front panel? >>>>>>>>> 2113 implies a 21MX-E; the nine-slot version is a 2109 while the fourteen-slot would be a 2113. >>>>>>>>> This might help - https://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=109 . >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> From: "cctalk" >>>>>>>>> To: "cctalk" >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 12, 2019 2:52:18 PM >>>>>>>>> Subject: Identification of an HP minicomputer >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have sitting in my pile of stuff an HP minicomputer that I?m trying to identify (at least in terms of exactly what it is and what sort of configuration it might have). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As far as I can tell, it?s an HP-1000 M-Series minicomputer (that should hopefully get us *some* details). The ?asset tag? lists the part number as 2113023-108. Looking at the back there?s space for 9 I/O cards (5 are occupied). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So my question is which of the several CPUs could this be and how do I tell (for example) what the configuration is (e.g. how much memory, etc). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Yes, I have looked on bitsavers, but short of disassembling the box to look at the (at least) 2 boards that are below the I/O slots, I can?t tell what?s there and I?d like to see if there?s a way to determine what this is without resorting to disassembly. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> TTFN - Guy >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us >>>>>>> Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us >>>>> Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ >>>> >>>> >>> >>> Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us >>> Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ >> >> > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From jdbryan at acm.org Mon Aug 12 18:54:30 2019 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 19:54:30 -0400 Subject: Identification of an HP minicomputer In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: On Monday, August 12, 2019 at 15:48, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: > I?ll see about firing it up and if that goes well (anyone have > suggestions for this type of mini?) You didn't list the cards in the rear I/O cage (the IDs should be on the card ejectors). However, if you have a 12821A HP-IB Disc Interface, you could run the standard HP diagnostics, which are quite thorough. They're available here: http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?sw=567 You'd also need the 12992J CS/80 Disc Loader ROM, if it's not installed (the binary is available at Bitsavers, and the chip is a fairly common 256 x 4-bit bipolar PROM), a $50 GPIB card for a PC, and Ansgar Kueckes' HPDrive program: http://www.hp9845.net/9845/projects/hpdrive/ ...which emulates a cartridge tape drive (among other HP mass-storage peripherals). That setup (12821A card/GPIB card/HPDrive program) also opens up the possibility of running some of the HP disc-based operating systems without requiring an HP disc or tape drive. Without removing the CPU, you can't easily tell which loader ROMs are installed in sockets on the PCB (there are up to four, with the first being a paper tape loader), except by loading each one into memory and comparing it to the binary listings in the 12992 manual. Also, you can't easily determine if any optional firmware instruction set PCBs are installed (they mount to the CPU board via standoffs). Removal of the bottom chassis panel is simple, which will reveal the firmware PCBs, but the part numbers are on the underside, i.e., facing the CPU board, typically requiring their removal from the CPU PCB for identification. -- Dave From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 12 20:32:07 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 18:32:07 -0700 Subject: Anyone have any Datapoint software on floppy? In-Reply-To: <82c72962-ff52-a8df-68bb-239850638326@bitsavers.org> References: <82c72962-ff52-a8df-68bb-239850638326@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1e10e433-7810-31c4-aadb-7921f5dd2f08@bitsavers.org> On 8/7/19 11:00 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I took pics and dumped the firmware from it along with a DP 1551 pcb I've had > for a while, and have been uploading the manuals to bitsavers that came with it, > as well as a bunch that I've had scanned in the backlog > > I've cleared the scanning backlog of known manuals, and did a bunch of newsletters and brochures that I didn't know we had. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/datapoint From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Mon Aug 12 10:11:13 2019 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 11:11:13 -0400 Subject: Pertec Interface Cable Length In-Reply-To: <440c3203-4d4f-2da4-6649-70e3300fd2d2@sydex.com> References: <48a88cf5-26d2-a16f-802f-ff7deb524175@comcast.net> <5D4F0549.7020405@pico-systems.com> <231ce89b-1eb3-4883-c68e-2b20edf53f99@comcast.net> <1565528834881.53828@w2hx.com> <1565539890348.21743@w2hx.com> <5D509E5B.5000408@pico-systems.com> <9095477e-12ba-e1e2-570c-38ab2a818bae@comcast.net> <440c3203-4d4f-2da4-6649-70e3300fd2d2@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 8/12/2019 1:25 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote: > On 8/11/19 8:51 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote: > >> The TC02 is an Emulex TS11 emulation for pertec interface tape drives. >> The J1 and J2 are sort of standard terminology, don't know why. > Ah, the *Emulex* TC02. You had me going there--DEC also has a DECtape > controller called the TC02. > > Looking at the TC02, there are 374s to latch data coming from the > Qualstar and use the termination packs, but there are also 7438s driving > the lines from the TC02 to the Qualstar. Those have no terminators. > > The TC02 reference manual says that you get run lines up to 30 feet long > between the TC02 and formatter. > > My point is that the driver technology for the Qualstar (i.e. read data > and status) is inappropriate for long cable runs. The spec calls for > 48 ma OC drivers. > > --Chuck > , The bad news is that the cable lengths must be short to use the Qualstar 1260 with a PDP11, the good news is that I can lift and carry the tape drive!? For many of us in this hobby that it is extremely important. After looking at pictures of the 1260 on the internet I see that it was designed to be used with a PC and the interface cable was 62 pins and quite short.? Someone mentioned earlier that it was a cheap tape drive that didn't meet the Pertec standard and I'm finding out what exactly that meant. It is nice to have a reel to reel tape drive and watch it work. Doug From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Aug 12 10:13:10 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 10:13:10 -0500 Subject: Pertec Interface Cable Length In-Reply-To: <9095477e-12ba-e1e2-570c-38ab2a818bae@comcast.net> References: <48a88cf5-26d2-a16f-802f-ff7deb524175@comcast.net> <5D4F0549.7020405@pico-systems.com> <231ce89b-1eb3-4883-c68e-2b20edf53f99@comcast.net> <1565528834881.53828@w2hx.com> <1565539890348.21743@w2hx.com> <5D509E5B.5000408@pico-systems.com> <9095477e-12ba-e1e2-570c-38ab2a818bae@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5D518206.6020509@pico-systems.com> On 08/11/2019 08:00 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote: > > > This is where the electrical engineer could help. How do > you determine how long a cable the 74LS240 can drive? > Well, there are several considerations. First, it takes some current to charge up the cable capacitance. More current charges the capacitance faster, but also creates faster edges which cause more crosstalk. Then, the data rate needs to be considered. Mag tape data rates are not that high. So, for 1600 BPI at 45 IPS, the data rate is 72 K bytes/second, or about 14 us per byte. Twisted-pair cable should have a little less capacitance, and it is supposed to reduce crosstalk, so should work better. The most serious problem is when many data lines switch at the same time, it may contaminate the clock pulses and cause bytes to be dropped or added. With the low data rates involved, proper delays to allow ringing to settle on the data lines and prevent short crosstalk pulses from affecting the clocks should make the system very tolerant of cable issues. But, maybe some engineers didn't really optimize their logic for these problems. Jon From nw.johnson at ieee.org Mon Aug 12 10:16:20 2019 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 11:16:20 -0400 Subject: Pertec Interface Cable Length In-Reply-To: <5D518206.6020509@pico-systems.com> References: <48a88cf5-26d2-a16f-802f-ff7deb524175@comcast.net> <5D4F0549.7020405@pico-systems.com> <231ce89b-1eb3-4883-c68e-2b20edf53f99@comcast.net> <1565528834881.53828@w2hx.com> <1565539890348.21743@w2hx.com> <5D509E5B.5000408@pico-systems.com> <9095477e-12ba-e1e2-570c-38ab2a818bae@comcast.net> <5D518206.6020509@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: Another consideration with the TC02 is the small buffer. I don't know what tape speed your drive runs at, but we lost a lot of sales to Dilog because of buffer overflow on some of the faster CDC dirves.? When we came out with the TC03, it had a larger buffer to handle this. cheers, Nigel Johnson On 12/08/2019 11:13, Jon Elson via cctech wrote: > On 08/11/2019 08:00 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote: >> >> >> This is where the electrical engineer could help.? How do you >> determine how long a cable the 74LS240 can drive? >> > Well, there are several considerations.? First, it takes some current > to charge up the cable capacitance.? More current charges the > capacitance faster, but also creates faster edges which cause more > crosstalk.? Then, the data rate needs to be considered.? Mag tape data > rates are not that high.? So, for 1600 BPI at 45 IPS, the data rate is > 72 K bytes/second, or about 14 us per byte. > > Twisted-pair cable should have a little less capacitance, and it is > supposed to reduce crosstalk, so should work better. > > The most serious problem is when many data lines switch at the same > time, it may contaminate the clock pulses and cause bytes to be > dropped or added. > > With the low data rates involved, proper delays to allow ringing to > settle on the data lines and prevent short crosstalk pulses from > affecting the clocks should make the system very tolerant of cable > issues.? But, maybe some engineers didn't really optimize their logic > for these problems. > > Jon -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 12 11:09:15 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 09:09:15 -0700 Subject: Pertec Interface Cable Length In-Reply-To: References: <48a88cf5-26d2-a16f-802f-ff7deb524175@comcast.net> <5D4F0549.7020405@pico-systems.com> <231ce89b-1eb3-4883-c68e-2b20edf53f99@comcast.net> <1565528834881.53828@w2hx.com> <1565539890348.21743@w2hx.com> <5D509E5B.5000408@pico-systems.com> <9095477e-12ba-e1e2-570c-38ab2a818bae@comcast.net> <440c3203-4d4f-2da4-6649-70e3300fd2d2@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 8/12/19 8:11 AM, Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote: > The bad news is that the cable lengths must be short to use the Qualstar > 1260 with a PDP11, the good news is that I can lift and carry the tape > drive!? For many of us in this hobby that it is extremely important. > > After looking at pictures of the 1260 on the internet I see that it was > designed to be used with a PC and the interface cable was 62 pins and > quite short.? Someone mentioned earlier that it was a cheap tape drive > that didn't meet the Pertec standard and I'm finding out what exactly > that meant. > > It is nice to have a reel to reel tape drive and watch it work. If you needed to cobble something up suitable for long cable driving, you could work up the correct pertec driver interface to sit between the Qualstar interface board and the cable and install it in the 1260 case--there's plenty of room without the SCSI interface PCB. The big problem with the 1260 is that it doesn't move the tape fast enough for reliable operation at the 6250 GCR setting; operation at 1600 PE is just passable. But it's a drive that's portable and that is an advantage, especially to us older folk. Another possible option would be to replace the Qualstar LS240 drivers with TI 74BCT756 open-collector drivers (same pinout) with 64 ma drive capability. That probably would be the harder option, as it would entail removing the soldered-in LS240s. FWIW, Chuck From athornton at gmail.com Tue Aug 13 01:05:27 2019 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 23:05:27 -0700 Subject: Electr* Engineering Message-ID: <4BFC14E7-3DA2-4348-8189-C93488CEFFDD@gmail.com> At Rice in the early 90s the department was "Electrical and Computer Engineering" if my hazy memory serves. The genealogy of Computer Science departments (and their curricula) (at least in the US) is also weird and historically-contingent. Basically it seems to have been a tossup at any given school whether it came out of the Electr[ical|onic] Engineering department, in which case it was memories and logic gates and a bottom-up, hardware-focused curriculum, or out of the Mathematics department, in which case it was algorithms and complexity analysis and a software-focused curriculum. Adam From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 13 01:35:10 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 23:35:10 -0700 Subject: Pertec Interface Cable Length In-Reply-To: References: <48a88cf5-26d2-a16f-802f-ff7deb524175@comcast.net> <5D4F0549.7020405@pico-systems.com> <231ce89b-1eb3-4883-c68e-2b20edf53f99@comcast.net> <1565528834881.53828@w2hx.com> <1565539890348.21743@w2hx.com> <5D509E5B.5000408@pico-systems.com> <9095477e-12ba-e1e2-570c-38ab2a818bae@comcast.net> <5D518206.6020509@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 8/12/19 8:16 AM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: > Another consideration with the TC02 is the small buffer. I don't know > what tape speed your drive runs at, but we lost a lot of sales to Dilog > because of buffer overflow on some of the faster CDC dirves.? When we > came out with the TC03, it had a larger buffer to handle this. The Qualstar drive is a *slow* drive. 50 ips in 1600 PE mode and a whopping 12.5 IPS in 6250 GCR mode. Transfer rate in either is about 80KB/sec. Qualstar doesn't have a mechanical buffer (spring arms or vacuum column) like most drives; it's all handled by the reel servos. It's wonder that it works at all. I doubt that it will overwhelm a PDP11. It probably doesn't overwhelm an IBM PC XT. The SCSI version of the drive does have a 256KB buffer, but I'm uncertain what the Pertec interface model has. --Chuck From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Aug 13 06:19:09 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 11:19:09 +0000 Subject: Electr* Engineering In-Reply-To: <4BFC14E7-3DA2-4348-8189-C93488CEFFDD@gmail.com> References: <4BFC14E7-3DA2-4348-8189-C93488CEFFDD@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 8/13/19 2:05 AM, Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: > At Rice in the early 90s the department was "Electrical and Computer Engineering" if my hazy memory serves. > > The genealogy of Computer Science departments (and their curricula) (at least in the US) is also weird and historically-contingent. Basically it seems to have been a tossup at any given school whether it came out of the Electr[ical|onic] Engineering department, in which case it was memories and logic gates and a bottom-up, hardware-focused curriculum, or out of the Mathematics department, in which case it was algorithms and complexity analysis and a software-focused curriculum. In the early 80's West Point had "Geography and Computer Science". CS has always been the red headed step child..... bill From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Aug 13 08:21:17 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 09:21:17 -0400 Subject: Electr* Engineering In-Reply-To: <4BFC14E7-3DA2-4348-8189-C93488CEFFDD@gmail.com> References: <4BFC14E7-3DA2-4348-8189-C93488CEFFDD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9D3FA931-D2B4-4B09-BAFC-80D9B3208858@comcast.net> > On Aug 13, 2019, at 2:05 AM, Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: > > At Rice in the early 90s the department was "Electrical and Computer Engineering" if my hazy memory serves. > > The genealogy of Computer Science departments (and their curricula) (at least in the US) is also weird and historically-contingent. Basically it seems to have been a tossup at any given school whether it came out of the Electr[ical|onic] Engineering department, in which case it was memories and logic gates and a bottom-up, hardware-focused curriculum, or out of the Mathematics department, in which case it was algorithms and complexity analysis and a software-focused curriculum. That was true in other countries as well. Sometimes different terms were used to show differences in focus, like "Computing science" or "Informatics". Early computer people, not surprisingly, had backgrounds from all over the science and engineering world. Several of the early Dutch computer designers were physicists with very little EE knowledge (and it showed...). For that matter, the famous Dutch computer scientist E.W. Dijkstra got his Ph.D. from the Department of Mathematics and Physics. The curriculum differences came a bit later, I think. At the very beginning you had to deal with the circuits and logic, no matter your background. Again, looking at the Dutch case, the Amsterdam computers came out of the "Mathematical Center" (an applied math institution) -- but they still assembled relays and tubes into complete computer systems, while working on algorithms. paul From mcquiggi at me.com Tue Aug 13 09:50:15 2019 From: mcquiggi at me.com (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 07:50:15 -0700 Subject: Electr* Engineering In-Reply-To: <4BFC14E7-3DA2-4348-8189-C93488CEFFDD@gmail.com> References: <4BFC14E7-3DA2-4348-8189-C93488CEFFDD@gmail.com> Message-ID: In my school in Canada, the computing science program started about 1974 and grew out of the math department, but when it was formalized as a department in 1976-77 the university wisely placed it in a new ?Interdisciplinary Studies? faculty and staffed the school with people from mathematics, chemistry, physics, and some external engineering folks. It worked out very well and the program was recognized shortly as one of the best in Canada due to recognition of CS? interdisciplinary nature. > On Aug 12, 2019, at 11:05 PM, Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: > > At Rice in the early 90s the department was "Electrical and Computer Engineering" if my hazy memory serves. > > The genealogy of Computer Science departments (and their curricula) (at least in the US) is also weird and historically-contingent. Basically it seems to have been a tossup at any given school whether it came out of the Electr[ical|onic] Engineering department, in which case it was memories and logic gates and a bottom-up, hardware-focused curriculum, or out of the Mathematics department, in which case it was algorithms and complexity analysis and a software-focused curriculum. > > Adam From turing at shaw.ca Tue Aug 13 10:37:45 2019 From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 09:37:45 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Electr* Engineering In-Reply-To: References: <4BFC14E7-3DA2-4348-8189-C93488CEFFDD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1972711589.7491050.1565710665321.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Kevin - which university did you go to? I was in the first class at Simon Fraser University that started in Computing Science (1974) rather than transferring in from another department... we often had TAs in one class that were students in the next one, as they had taken the first class earlier... From: "cctalk" To: "Adam Thornton" , "cctalk" Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 7:50:15 AM Subject: Re: Electr* Engineering In my school in Canada, the computing science program started about 1974 and grew out of the math department, but when it was formalized as a department in 1976-77 the university wisely placed it in a new ?Interdisciplinary Studies? faculty and staffed the school with people from mathematics, chemistry, physics, and some external engineering folks. It worked out very well and the program was recognized shortly as one of the best in Canada due to recognition of CS? interdisciplinary nature. > On Aug 12, 2019, at 11:05 PM, Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: > > At Rice in the early 90s the department was "Electrical and Computer Engineering" if my hazy memory serves. > > The genealogy of Computer Science departments (and their curricula) (at least in the US) is also weird and historically-contingent. Basically it seems to have been a tossup at any given school whether it came out of the Electr[ical|onic] Engineering department, in which case it was memories and logic gates and a bottom-up, hardware-focused curriculum, or out of the Mathematics department, in which case it was algorithms and complexity analysis and a software-focused curriculum. > > Adam From broswell at syssrc.com Tue Aug 13 08:46:18 2019 From: broswell at syssrc.com (Bob Roswell) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 13:46:18 +0000 Subject: [EXTERNAL] I need a keypunch (briefly) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3f5736196402429a869882272733c74c@Exch13MB.syssrcad.syssrc.com> Chip - Our museum in Baltimore in 330 miles from you. Our 029 cardpunch worked last time we turned it on! Bob Roswell broswell at syssrc.com 410-771-5544 ext 4336 https://museum.syssrc.com -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of cctalk via cctalk Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2019 1:56 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: [EXTERNAL] I need a keypunch (briefly) The Computer Museum of America in Roswell GA (400 miles) has 2 working 029s. Don?t know the condition of the ribbons. Contact Lonnie Simms via info at computermuseumofamerica.org. Tell him his CA IBM benefactor sent you. I hope you have black cards. If not, let me know. Otherwise you could try http://www.kloth.net/services/cardpunch.php and print the JPEG on heavy stock. Donald Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 18:10:32 -0400 From: Chip Davis To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: I need a keypunch (briefly) Message-ID: <5c1abccc-5548-057d-fa0c-0b6be9d0c2c8 at aresti.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed I was referred to this group by dave.g4ugm at gmail.com who thought you might be able to help me. I need to punch a half-dozen datacards for an award for a retired IBMer. Anyone know where I can find a working 026/029/129 within 300 miles of Raleigh, NC? Many thanks for any pointers. Chip Davis chip at aresti.com +1.919.271.2582 From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Aug 13 11:12:36 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 09:12:36 -0700 Subject: Anyone have a mid-80s Robinson-Nugent connector catalog? Message-ID: <8b99cba4-34d5-3031-d41f-86d9a7340c7c@bitsavers.org> Or some RN 68 pin CLCC sockets, or even a part number for them? I tried buying a 1981 RFN catalog, but they weren't in there. I have a bunch of IMS 80186 slave cards with the CPUs pulled Of course, they didn't keep the caps. RN was bought by 3M and I've been unable to even find a part number for these sockets. I'm hoping not to have to replace the sockets to get these boards working. Pics of what I need are here https://twitter.com/bitsavers/status/1161075014235385857 From mcquiggi at me.com Tue Aug 13 11:18:53 2019 From: mcquiggi at me.com (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 09:18:53 -0700 Subject: Electr* Engineering In-Reply-To: <1972711589.7491050.1565710665321.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> References: <4BFC14E7-3DA2-4348-8189-C93488CEFFDD@gmail.com> <1972711589.7491050.1565710665321.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <4391771E-14EB-48E4-AAF3-BB3715A23348@me.com> Norman, I recall you! I was at SFU first as a high school student from 1975 then as an undergrad 1977-1981. Elma, Doreen, Ted Sterling, James Weinkam - you?ll remember them! I was a TA as well in the late 1970s and classes were small, especially upper level. 5-6 students per class and we?d TA one another based on our specialities. Mine was system software, OSes, a bit of hardware. It was a great ?classic? university eduction, not the big machine it is now. Best wishes, Kevin Remember Gana and Chris Dewhurst? > On Aug 13, 2019, at 8:37 AM, Norman Jaffe via cctalk wrote: > > Kevin - which university did you go to? > I was in the first class at Simon Fraser University that started in Computing Science (1974) rather than transferring in from another department... we often had TAs in one class that were students in the next one, as they had taken the first class earlier... > > From: "cctalk" > To: "Adam Thornton" , "cctalk" > Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 7:50:15 AM > Subject: Re: Electr* Engineering > > In my school in Canada, the computing science program started about 1974 and grew out of the math department, but when it was formalized as a department in 1976-77 the university wisely placed it in a new ?Interdisciplinary Studies? faculty and staffed the school with people from mathematics, chemistry, physics, and some external engineering folks. > > It worked out very well and the program was recognized shortly as one of the best in Canada due to recognition of CS? interdisciplinary nature. > >> On Aug 12, 2019, at 11:05 PM, Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: >> >> At Rice in the early 90s the department was "Electrical and Computer Engineering" if my hazy memory serves. >> >> The genealogy of Computer Science departments (and their curricula) (at least in the US) is also weird and historically-contingent. Basically it seems to have been a tossup at any given school whether it came out of the Electr[ical|onic] Engineering department, in which case it was memories and logic gates and a bottom-up, hardware-focused curriculum, or out of the Mathematics department, in which case it was algorithms and complexity analysis and a software-focused curriculum. >> >> Adam From turing at shaw.ca Tue Aug 13 11:37:52 2019 From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 10:37:52 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Electr* Engineering In-Reply-To: <4391771E-14EB-48E4-AAF3-BB3715A23348@me.com> References: <4BFC14E7-3DA2-4348-8189-C93488CEFFDD@gmail.com> <1972711589.7491050.1565710665321.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <4391771E-14EB-48E4-AAF3-BB3715A23348@me.com> Message-ID: <1512113282.7594523.1565714272961.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Hi Kevin: Yup. I haven't heard anything about Gana for decades, but Chris is on Facebook... I graduated in 1977... you'll probably also remember Rick Hobson, Jerry Barenholtz, Tom Calvert and Nick Cercone... For those not from SFU - https://www.sfu.ca/computing/about/history.html From: "Kevin McQuiggin" To: "myself" , "cctalk" Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 9:18:53 AM Subject: Re: Electr* Engineering Norman, I recall you! I was at SFU first as a high school student from 1975 then as an undergrad 1977-1981. Elma, Doreen, Ted Sterling, James Weinkam - you?ll remember them! I was a TA as well in the late 1970s and classes were small, especially upper level. 5-6 students per class and we?d TA one another based on our specialities. Mine was system software, OSes, a bit of hardware. It was a great ?classic? university eduction, not the big machine it is now. Best wishes, Kevin Remember Gana and Chris Dewhurst? > On Aug 13, 2019, at 8:37 AM, Norman Jaffe via cctalk wrote: > > Kevin - which university did you go to? > I was in the first class at Simon Fraser University that started in Computing Science (1974) rather than transferring in from another department... we often had TAs in one class that were students in the next one, as they had taken the first class earlier... > > From: "cctalk" > To: "Adam Thornton" , "cctalk" > Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 7:50:15 AM > Subject: Re: Electr* Engineering > > In my school in Canada, the computing science program started about 1974 and grew out of the math department, but when it was formalized as a department in 1976-77 the university wisely placed it in a new ?Interdisciplinary Studies? faculty and staffed the school with people from mathematics, chemistry, physics, and some external engineering folks. > > It worked out very well and the program was recognized shortly as one of the best in Canada due to recognition of CS? interdisciplinary nature. > >> On Aug 12, 2019, at 11:05 PM, Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: >> >> At Rice in the early 90s the department was "Electrical and Computer Engineering" if my hazy memory serves. >> >> The genealogy of Computer Science departments (and their curricula) (at least in the US) is also weird and historically-contingent. Basically it seems to have been a tossup at any given school whether it came out of the Electr[ical|onic] Engineering department, in which case it was memories and logic gates and a bottom-up, hardware-focused curriculum, or out of the Mathematics department, in which case it was algorithms and complexity analysis and a software-focused curriculum. >> >> Adam From cctalk at ibmjunkman.com Tue Aug 13 12:26:22 2019 From: cctalk at ibmjunkman.com (cctalk at ibmjunkman.com) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 10:26:22 -0700 Subject: IBM 026/029/129 ribbons Message-ID: <000001d551fc$3a49a110$aedce330$@ibmjunkman.com> Just for reference the following site has ribbons for the subject card punches. https://www.aroundtheoffice.com/IBM-026-Keypunch-Ribbon/productinfo/RP-520-I BM/ I bought some a few years ago. As I understand it he makes a batch every year or so. I don't know but he might like the used reels back to use again. :-) Donald From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Aug 13 12:38:21 2019 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 10:38:21 -0700 Subject: Electr* Engineering In-Reply-To: <4BFC14E7-3DA2-4348-8189-C93488CEFFDD@gmail.com> References: <4BFC14E7-3DA2-4348-8189-C93488CEFFDD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <04AA6D23-E4EF-4E76-92AF-363E3B7A1A4F@shiresoft.com> I can attest to that. ;-) Where I went (CMU) the CS department grew out of the Math department?while I was there the only degree that the CS department granted was PhD. So everyone else majored in something else (EE in my case?which had a bunch of digital stuff but still focused on a lot of theory?differential equations, electromagnetic fields/waves and communications theory) and took CS courses as electives (which focused on data structures, algorithms, etc?e.g. a lot of CS theory). TTFN - Guy > On Aug 12, 2019, at 11:05 PM, Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: > > At Rice in the early 90s the department was "Electrical and Computer Engineering" if my hazy memory serves. > > The genealogy of Computer Science departments (and their curricula) (at least in the US) is also weird and historically-contingent. Basically it seems to have been a tossup at any given school whether it came out of the Electr[ical|onic] Engineering department, in which case it was memories and logic gates and a bottom-up, hardware-focused curriculum, or out of the Mathematics department, in which case it was algorithms and complexity analysis and a software-focused curriculum. > > Adam From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Tue Aug 13 18:19:51 2019 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 18:19:51 -0500 Subject: ADM-3A question Message-ID: <92054454FB2F4B22A05B29DE8F58619B@CharlesHPLaptop> After hanging vertically for 36 hrs in a hot upstairs room, more goop seeped out from under the keyboard. It now works again. Whew. While running on the bench for burn-in testing, a cursor problem suddenly appeared... it would only move every other keystroke. With the technical description and schematic at hand, it wasn't hard to track down a 74LS193 up/down counter with a blown (floating) LSB output. Confirmed by manually toggling that bit and the cursor would move back and forth one position. Meanwhile I removed the bad chip and put in a DIP socket. Naturally my TTL collection didn't have an 'LS193 so I'm waiting on that. So I have a 24 line, 1 column terminal :) The monitor was occasionally intermittent (no display at all, no HV, +15 and drive signals OK). It seemed to change with movement of the wiring harness from the main board to the monitor, too. I reseated the edge connector on its PCB and it seemed to be fixed - but then the VERTICAL deflection collapsed and tweaking the height adjustment caused increasing loss. The 100 ohm pot to the base of the vertical output transistor had picked that moment to go open. Changed that out and readjusted everything - so far so good after another hour of run time. This ADM-3A could have been unpowered (and in a storage area without climate control) for a very long time. I wonder if that contributed to the failures I'm seeing... hope there aren't any more until I get to use it for a while on my PDP-8/A (or 11/23+). --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Aug 13 18:35:49 2019 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 16:35:49 -0700 Subject: Compaq SystemPro XL Service Manual or PSU Schematics Message-ID: <023501d5522f$d6fd6950$84f83bf0$@net> Hello All, Does anyone out there by any chance have the Service Manual for a Compaq SystemPro XL or at least schematics to the PSU? Trying to revive one of these systems and the PSU is not working. TIA! -Ali From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Tue Aug 13 20:05:36 2019 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 21:05:36 -0400 Subject: XXDP on PDP-11/03 Message-ID: <73db5632-9a9d-7f27-8970-86e26dc2de39@comcast.net> Recently, I assembled one of the RX02 emulator boards developed by AK6DN.? I am using it presently in a BA11-M box with PDP-11/2 cpu (really basic 16 bit system).? I put the disk images from github on the SD card (RT11 V5.07 and XXDP not sure what version). The box has a BDV11 bootstrap / terminator board and I use this to boot the RX02 emulator.? Works fine when I boot RT11, however I can't boot XXDP - it halts at 000104. Do I need to use a different version of XXDP to run on the PDP-11/03? Doug From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Tue Aug 13 23:15:13 2019 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 23:15:13 -0500 Subject: Convergent Technologies NGEN and Datapoint monitor Message-ID: Good evening, folks... Does anybody know if Datapoint made monitors for Convergent Technologies? In my "near junk" section I have some modules that someone stored in a warehouse next to a carpenter shop and under bombardment from bats and birds.? The modules were made by Convergent Technologies and I never did much about them because of their extremely dirty state and also because of the lack of a keyboard.? I have: - Two CP-001/8 cpu modules (80186 at 8MHz, 256KB RAM, 6845 video IC) - Four 5 1/4" dual-floppy modules (each has two Mitsubishi M4853 half-height drives) - One GC-001 graphics controller - Two PS-001 power supplies, one is missing parts and then, a monitor that by the looks and controls is a VC-002 15" to be used with the GC-001, except that it is labeled as: Datapoint Corp. Model 97-1224-001 Serial 934055 Other marks:? 53-00355-00???? 5-84 So, do you guys know if Datapoint made monitors for others? Carlos. From ylee at columbia.edu Tue Aug 13 14:04:07 2019 From: ylee at columbia.edu (Yeechang Lee) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 12:04:07 -0700 Subject: Electr* Engineering In-Reply-To: <4BFC14E7-3DA2-4348-8189-C93488CEFFDD@gmail.com> References: <4BFC14E7-3DA2-4348-8189-C93488CEFFDD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <23891.2471.662484.640455@dobie.ylee.org> Adam Thornton says: > The genealogy of Computer Science departments (and their curricula) > (at least in the US) is also weird and historically-contingent. > Basically it seems to have been a tossup at any given school whether > it came out of the Electr[ical|onic] Engineering department, in > which case it was memories and logic gates and a bottom-up, > hardware-focused curriculum, or out of the Mathematics department, > in which case it was algorithms and complexity analysis and a > software-focused curriculum. Yes, I've noticed the same thing. Example: Harvard's CS department is originally from the math side, while MIT's is from EE (thus today's EECS). Berkeley = EE Brown = Math BYU = Math Caltech = EE Columbia = EE Cornell = Operations research, math Dartmouth = Math Illinois = Math NYU = Both (because Polytechnic developed its own CS program long before NYU acquired it to regain an engineering school) Penn = EE UCLA = OR (probably because of the RAND heritage) Caltech until very recently did not formally offer CS degrees; students received degrees in Engineering and Applied Science, with a focus on CS (or aeronautics, or civil, or ME). Illinois is an example of a track we might call "other" or even "defense". With government funding the university built its own computers (including ILLIAC and PLATO), and the group that did so became the CS department, but the undergraduate CS program began within the math department. Harvard's and Penn's programs might also qualify. Undergraduate CS degrees are BA (Example: Harvard), BS (Example: Penn), or both (Example: Columbia). At Penn one must be an engineering student to major in CS. At Columbia one can major in CS in either the liberal arts or engineering schools, but with different curriculums. At Yale there is one undergraduate school, within which one can receive a BA or BS in CS, with different curriculums. Cornell, Northwestern, and Berkeley offer CS in their separate liberal arts and engineering schools; undergraduates receive BA or BS degrees with identical CS curriculums, with only other requirements differing. I've read that medical schools are good at teaching either pharmacology (drugs), or pathology (diseases); perhaps this is also because of the expertise/specialty of their early faculty members. -- geo:37.783333,-122.416667 From leec2124 at gmail.com Tue Aug 13 15:57:26 2019 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 13:57:26 -0700 Subject: Electr* Engineering In-Reply-To: <23891.2471.662484.640455@dobie.ylee.org> References: <4BFC14E7-3DA2-4348-8189-C93488CEFFDD@gmail.com> <23891.2471.662484.640455@dobie.ylee.org> Message-ID: in the late 1960s and up thru 1979 UTexas at Arlington Computer Science initially only offered a Masters, and was housed in Industrial Engineering. If you wanted an undergrad degree in "computing" you went thru the math department and got a BA or BS in mathematics with an emphasis in computing. I took a *lot* of CS classes and a couple EE tclasses to build my own CS curriculum on top of my BS-Math. In 1979 when I graduated I could have gotten one of the first BS in Computer Science and Engineering instead of Math. But, I just stoop to taking a 3-unit class for a semester in mechanical drawing which was madnatory for engineering degrees at that time. Has never been a problem, and I enjoyed my math classes. Lee Courtney Lee Courtney On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 12:04 PM Yeechang Lee via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Adam Thornton says: > > The genealogy of Computer Science departments (and their curricula) > > (at least in the US) is also weird and historically-contingent. > > Basically it seems to have been a tossup at any given school whether > > it came out of the Electr[ical|onic] Engineering department, in > > which case it was memories and logic gates and a bottom-up, > > hardware-focused curriculum, or out of the Mathematics department, > > in which case it was algorithms and complexity analysis and a > > software-focused curriculum. > > Yes, I've noticed the same thing. Example: Harvard's CS department is > originally from the math side, while MIT's is from EE (thus today's > EECS). > > Berkeley = EE > Brown = Math > BYU = Math > Caltech = EE > Columbia = EE > Cornell = Operations research, math > Dartmouth = Math > Illinois = Math > NYU = Both (because Polytechnic developed its own CS program long > before NYU acquired it to regain an engineering school) > Penn = EE > UCLA = OR (probably because of the RAND heritage) > > Caltech until very recently did not formally offer CS degrees; > students received degrees in Engineering and Applied Science, with a > focus on CS (or aeronautics, or civil, or ME). > > Illinois is an example of a track we might call "other" or even > "defense". With government funding the university built its own > computers (including ILLIAC and PLATO), and the group that did so > became the CS department, but the undergraduate CS program began > within the math department. Harvard's and Penn's programs might also > qualify. > > Undergraduate CS degrees are BA (Example: Harvard), BS (Example: > Penn), or both (Example: Columbia). At Penn one must be an engineering > student to major in CS. At Columbia one can major in CS in either the > liberal arts or engineering schools, but with different > curriculums. At Yale there is one undergraduate school, within which > one can receive a BA or BS in CS, with different curriculums. Cornell, > Northwestern, and Berkeley offer CS in their separate liberal arts and > engineering schools; undergraduates receive BA or BS degrees with > identical CS curriculums, with only other requirements differing. > > I've read that medical schools are good at teaching either > pharmacology (drugs), or pathology (diseases); perhaps this is also > because of the expertise/specialty of their early faculty members. > > -- > geo:37.783333,-122.416667 > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From jsw at ieee.org Wed Aug 14 00:57:21 2019 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 00:57:21 -0500 Subject: XXDP on PDP-11/03 In-Reply-To: <73db5632-9a9d-7f27-8970-86e26dc2de39@comcast.net> References: <73db5632-9a9d-7f27-8970-86e26dc2de39@comcast.net> Message-ID: There are two versions of XXDP+ V2 monitors.?? The XXDPSM.SYS is needed for cpu's w/o MMU's or don't have more than 28KW.? This and XXDPXM.SYS are both on the AK6DN diagnostic image. However, only a few other programs exist on the image. In SIMH the AK6DN image does the same thing.? The halt location 100 is near the LTC vector.? I turned BEVENT off and it boots successfully. I am not immediately sure why this is necessary. sim> show cpu CPU??? 11/03, NOEIS, NOFIS, BEVENT disabled, autoconfiguration enabled, idle disabled ??? 56KB sim> show ry RY??? address=17777170-17777173, vector=264, BR5, 2 units ? RY0??? 512KB, attached to XXDP.RX2, write enabled ??? double density ? RY1??? 512KB, not attached, write enabled ??? double density sim> boot ry MEMORY MANAGEMENT UNIT NOT FOUND BOOTING UP XXDP-SM SMALL MONITOR XXDP-SM SMALL MONITOR - XXDP V2.6 REVISION: E0 BOOTED FROM DY0 28KW OF MEMORY NON-UNIBUS SYSTEM RESTART ADDRESS: 152010 TYPE "H" FOR HELP .H ? NOT FOUND: HELP? .TXT From a XXDPXM boot..... .DIR ENTRY# FILNAM.EXT??????? DATE????????? LENGTH? START?? VERSION ??? 1? XXDPXM.SYS?????? 1-MAR-89???????? 39??? 000067?? F.0 ??? 2? XXDPSM.SYS?????? 1-MAR-89???????? 29??? 000136?? E.0 ??? 3? DRSXM .SYS?????? 1-MAR-89???????? 48??? 000173?? C.0 ??? 4? DRSSM .SYS?????? 1-MAR-89???????? 24??? 000253?? G.2 ??? 5? DIR?? .SYS?????? 1-MAR-89????????? 7??? 000303?? D.0 ??? 6? DB??? .SYS?????? 1-MAR-89????????? 2??? 000312?? C.0 ??? 7? DD??? .SYS?????? 1-MAR-89????????? 3??? 000314?? D.0 ??? 8? DL??? .SYS?????? 1-MAR-89????????? 4??? 000317?? D.0 ??? 9? DM??? .SYS?????? 1-MAR-89????????? 4??? 000323?? C.0 ?? 10? DR??? .SYS?????? 1-MAR-89????????? 3??? 000327?? C.0 ?? 11? DU??? .SYS?????? 1-MAR-89????????? 4??? 000332?? E.0 ?? 12? DY??? .SYS?????? 1-MAR-89????????? 3??? 000336?? D.0 ?? 13? LP??? .SYS?????? 1-MAR-89????????? 1??? 000341?? B.0 ?? 14? MM??? .SYS?????? 1-MAR-89????????? 3??? 000342?? C.0 ?? 15? MS??? .SYS?????? 1-MAR-89????????? 4??? 000345?? C.0 ?? 16? MU??? .SYS?????? 1-MAR-89????????? 4??? 000351?? E.0 ?? 17? DATE? .SYS?????? 1-MAR-89????????? 2??? 000355?? B.0 ?? 18? DUSZ? .SYS?????? 1-MAR-89????????? 2??? 000357?? C.0 ?? 19? ZRXAF0.BIC?????? 1-MAR-89???????? 17??? 000361 ?? 20? ZRXBF0.BIC?????? 1-MAR-89???????? 16??? 000402 ?? 21? ZRXCA0.BIN?????? 1-MAR-89????????? 7??? 000422 ?? 22? ZRXDC0.BIC?????? 1-MAR-89???????? 30??? 000431 ?? 23? ZRXEA2.BIC?????? 1-MAR-89???????? 17??? 000467 ?? 24? ZRXFB0.BIC?????? 1-MAR-89???????? 31??? 000510 FREE BLOCKS:?? 629 ?? Jerry On 8/13/19 8:05 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Recently, I assembled one of the RX02 emulator boards developed by > AK6DN. I am using it presently in a BA11-M box with PDP-11/2 cpu > (really basic 16 bit system).? I put the disk images from github on > the SD card (RT11 V5.07 and XXDP not sure what version). > > The box has a BDV11 bootstrap / terminator board and I use this to > boot the RX02 emulator.? Works fine when I boot RT11, however I can't > boot XXDP - it halts at 000104. > > Do I need to use a different version of XXDP to run on the PDP-11/03? > > Doug > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Aug 14 05:02:45 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 11:02:45 +0100 Subject: ADM-3A question In-Reply-To: <92054454FB2F4B22A05B29DE8F58619B@CharlesHPLaptop> References: <92054454FB2F4B22A05B29DE8F58619B@CharlesHPLaptop> Message-ID: <046c01d55287$6be1f250$43a5d6f0$@gmail.com> Charles, I believe that TTL chips suffer from failure or detachment of the bonding wire that runs from the die to the interconnect pin, which would result in a floating pin as described.] Not sure if environmental storage affects this as chips should be sealed... I have also recently seen it suggested that heating the chip up in an oven could affect a temporary repair (sorry I can't find the reference now). Dave G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Charles via cctalk > Sent: 14 August 2019 00:20 > To: cctalk digest > Subject: Re: ADM-3A question > > After hanging vertically for 36 hrs in a hot upstairs room, more goop seeped > out from under the keyboard. It now works again. Whew. > > While running on the bench for burn-in testing, a cursor problem suddenly > appeared... it would only move every other keystroke. With the technical > description and schematic at hand, it wasn't hard to track down a 74LS193 > up/down counter with a blown (floating) LSB output. Confirmed by manually > toggling that bit and the cursor would move back and forth one position. > Meanwhile I removed the bad chip and put in a DIP socket. Naturally my TTL > collection didn't have an 'LS193 so I'm waiting on that. So I have a 24 line, 1 > column terminal :) > > The monitor was occasionally intermittent (no display at all, no HV, +15 and > drive signals OK). It seemed to change with movement of the wiring harness > from the main board to the monitor, too. I reseated the edge connector on its > PCB and it seemed to be fixed - but then the VERTICAL deflection collapsed and > tweaking the height adjustment caused increasing loss. The 100 ohm pot to the > base of the vertical output transistor had picked that moment to go open. > Changed that out and readjusted everything - so far so good after another hour > of run time. > > This ADM-3A could have been unpowered (and in a storage area without > climate > control) for a very long time. I wonder if that contributed to the failures I'm > seeing... hope there aren't any more until I get to use it for a while on my PDP- > 8/A (or 11/23+). > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus From nw.johnson at ieee.org Wed Aug 14 05:41:42 2019 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 06:41:42 -0400 Subject: XXDP on PDP-11/03 In-Reply-To: <73db5632-9a9d-7f27-8970-86e26dc2de39@comcast.net> References: <73db5632-9a9d-7f27-8970-86e26dc2de39@comcast.net> Message-ID: That sounds like it is trapping due to an LTC interrupt. Turn off the LTC cheers, Nigel On 13/08/2019 21:05, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Recently, I assembled one of the RX02 emulator boards developed by > AK6DN.? I am using it presently in a BA11-M box with PDP-11/2 cpu > (really basic 16 bit system).? I put the disk images from github on > the SD card (RT11 V5.07 and XXDP not sure what version). > > The box has a BDV11 bootstrap / terminator board and I use this to > boot the RX02 emulator.? Works fine when I boot RT11, however I can't > boot XXDP - it halts at 000104. > > Do I need to use a different version of XXDP to run on the PDP-11/03? > > Doug > -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Aug 14 06:31:09 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 07:31:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: XXDP on PDP-11/03 Message-ID: <20190814113109.358CE18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jerry Weiss > I turned BEVENT off and it boots successfully. I am not immediately > sure why this is necessary. If an LTC interrupt happens before the OS has set up the LTC vector, etc, hilarity ensues. E.g. the LTC has to be turned off before UNIX V6 will boot on an -11/23: http://gunkies.org/wiki/Running_UNIX_V6_on_an_-11/23 I discovered this the hard way; I roached the disk on my simulated /23 when I didn't. Noel From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Wed Aug 14 07:25:13 2019 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 13:25:13 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: ADM-3A question In-Reply-To: <92054454FB2F4B22A05B29DE8F58619B@CharlesHPLaptop> Message-ID: <01RA8BXQN0HG8WYJ4Q@beyondthepale.ie> Charles wrote: > > After hanging vertically for 36 hrs in a hot upstairs room, more goop seeped > out from under the keyboard. It now works again. Whew. > > While running on the bench for burn-in testing, a cursor problem suddenly > appeared... it would only move every other keystroke. With the technical > description and schematic at hand, it wasn't hard to track down a 74LS193 > up/down counter with a blown (floating) LSB output. Confirmed by manually > toggling that bit and the cursor would move back and forth one position. > Meanwhile I removed the bad chip and put in a DIP socket. Naturally my TTL > collection didn't have an 'LS193 so I'm waiting on that. So I have a 24 > line, 1 column terminal :) > > The monitor was occasionally intermittent (no display at all, no HV, +15 and > drive signals OK). It seemed to change with movement of the wiring harness > from the main board to the monitor, too. I reseated the edge connector on > its PCB and it seemed to be fixed - but then the VERTICAL deflection > collapsed and tweaking the height adjustment caused increasing loss. The 100 > ohm pot to the base of the vertical output transistor had picked that moment > to go open. Changed that out and readjusted everything - so far so good > after another hour of run time. > > This ADM-3A could have been unpowered (and in a storage area without climate > control) for a very long time. I wonder if that contributed to the failures > I'm seeing... hope there aren't any more until I get to use it for a while > on my PDP-8/A (or 11/23+). > I had a similar cascade of failures on an ADM-5. Each time I fixed a fault, another one arose. At one point, the faults were happening quicker than I could put them right! Initially, there was some logic fault which required a 74LS125 to be replaced. Luckily I ordered several because a short time after that, another 74LS125 failed. Before I could fit the new chips, the raster collapsed to a vertical line and slowly faded out. I initially thought this was due to a bad connection in the wiring harness to the monitor board but I eventually tracked it down to a bad joint on the line driver transformer. This probably arose when I accidentally dropped the lid rather hard. I think a few other faults which I don't recall now also arose during the faultfinding session. Perhaps the ADM-3 and ADM-5 both suffer from these sort of multiple failures? I dug out my ADM-5 just now to see what chips I had replaced and while I was at it, powered it up. It seemed to work ok initially, in that the cursor appeared (after I wiggled the noisy brightness control) but before I could find a loopback connector to make more complete tests, I heard a soft whoosh from the insides and when I lifted the lid, was greeted by a cloud of foul smelling smoke. It seemed like the sort of smoke that mains filter capacitors make but disappointingly, it does not seem to have such a capacitor :-( It is currently sitting outside waiting for the smoke to dissipate before further investigation. I have a second ADM-5 which has a logic fault that I have not been able to trace. While there is an ADM-3 maintenance manual available, I have not been able to find one for an ADM-5. There is some commonality but my problem seems to be in an area where they differ :-( Regards, Peter Coghlan. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Aug 14 08:34:38 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 09:34:38 -0400 Subject: XXDP on PDP-11/03 In-Reply-To: <20190814113109.358CE18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190814113109.358CE18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <1B47373B-0C82-4033-AADD-6D62EAE35A90@comcast.net> > On Aug 14, 2019, at 7:31 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Jerry Weiss > >> I turned BEVENT off and it boots successfully. I am not immediately >> sure why this is necessary. > > If an LTC interrupt happens before the OS has set up the LTC vector, etc, > hilarity ensues. > > E.g. the LTC has to be turned off before UNIX V6 will boot on an -11/23: > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/Running_UNIX_V6_on_an_-11/23 That's weird. Isn't the interrupt disabled by RESET? paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Aug 14 09:17:24 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 10:17:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: XXDP on PDP-11/03 Message-ID: <20190814141724.3741618C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning > Isn't the interrupt disabled by RESET? Nope. On the -11/03 and KDF11-A, BEVNT is wired straight into the CPU, and there's no internal register to control it. The BDV11 does have a register which can enable/disable the LTC (it connects BEVNT to ground via a transistor when the appropriate register bit is cleared); but, ironically (given your question), BINIT/RESET does _not_ clear that register! Only BPOK does. (My theory is they were short of a bus receiver for BINIT, and rather than put a whole extra chip on the card...) So, once on, it has to be explicitly turned off, or the 'boot' switch (which toggles BPOK) has to be hit. The KDF11-B and all KDJ11 machines do have the LTC register, which operates 'correctly'. Noel From systems.glitch at gmail.com Wed Aug 14 09:24:29 2019 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 10:24:29 -0400 Subject: XXDP on PDP-11/03 In-Reply-To: <20190814141724.3741618C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190814141724.3741618C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Yep, fun times on LSI-11/2! Some configurations also won't boot unless it's on, if I remember correctly. I suppose this is part of the reason that LSI-11/2 CPU boards are so cheap! Thanks, Jonathan On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 10:17 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > From: Paul Koning > > > Isn't the interrupt disabled by RESET? > > Nope. On the -11/03 and KDF11-A, BEVNT is wired straight into the CPU, and > there's no internal register to control it. > > The BDV11 does have a register which can enable/disable the LTC (it > connects > BEVNT to ground via a transistor when the appropriate register bit is > cleared); but, ironically (given your question), BINIT/RESET does _not_ > clear > that register! Only BPOK does. (My theory is they were short of a bus > receiver > for BINIT, and rather than put a whole extra chip on the card...) So, once > on, > it has to be explicitly turned off, or the 'boot' switch (which toggles > BPOK) > has to be hit. > > The KDF11-B and all KDJ11 machines do have the LTC register, which operates > 'correctly'. > > Noel > From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Wed Aug 14 09:24:47 2019 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 09:24:47 -0500 Subject: ADM-3A question Message-ID: <4518469134B84CD68B3B57D983D8138B@CharlesHPLaptop> Thanks. I believe you are right also :) The expensive ceramic packages have hermetic seals, not so the plastic (epoxy) packages used in commercial grade parts. There are some kind of failures that can be fixed by baking - but I don't know if this is one of them (if the bond wire is soldered to the die it might work). If it detached from the weld at the lead frame, no go. Anyway there are over 100 chips on the ADM-3A board and I would be more worried about damaging the others with heat. I just paid 71 cents for another LS193 ;) Charles WB3JOK/0 -----Original Message----- From: Dave Wade Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 5:02 AM To: 'Charles' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: ADM-3A question Charles, I believe that TTL chips suffer from failure or detachment of the bonding wire that runs from the die to the interconnect pin, which would result in a floating pin as described.] Not sure if environmental storage affects this as chips should be sealed... I have also recently seen it suggested that heating the chip up in an oven could affect a temporary repair (sorry I can't find the reference now). Dave G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Charles via cctalk > Sent: 14 August 2019 00:20 > To: cctalk digest > Subject: Re: ADM-3A question > > After hanging vertically for 36 hrs in a hot upstairs room, more goop seeped > out from under the keyboard. It now works again. Whew. > > While running on the bench for burn-in testing, a cursor problem suddenly > appeared... it would only move every other keystroke. With the technical > description and schematic at hand, it wasn't hard to track down a 74LS193 > up/down counter with a blown (floating) LSB output. Confirmed by manually > toggling that bit and the cursor would move back and forth one position. > Meanwhile I removed the bad chip and put in a DIP socket. Naturally my TTL > collection didn't have an 'LS193 so I'm waiting on that. So I have a 24 line, 1 > column terminal :) > > The monitor was occasionally intermittent (no display at all, no HV, +15 and > drive signals OK). It seemed to change with movement of the wiring harness > from the main board to the monitor, too. I reseated the edge connector on its > PCB and it seemed to be fixed - but then the VERTICAL deflection collapsed and > tweaking the height adjustment caused increasing loss. The 100 ohm pot to the > base of the vertical output transistor had picked that moment to go open. > Changed that out and readjusted everything - so far so good after another hour > of run time. > > This ADM-3A could have been unpowered (and in a storage area without > climate > control) for a very long time. I wonder if that contributed to the failures I'm > seeing... hope there aren't any more until I get to use it for a while on my PDP- > 8/A (or 11/23+). > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Wed Aug 14 10:25:39 2019 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 11:25:39 -0400 Subject: XXDP on PDP-11/03 In-Reply-To: <20190814141724.3741618C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190814141724.3741618C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5cbb1d13-6ed7-7258-409c-12065f93d073@comcast.net> On 8/14/2019 10:17 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Paul Koning > > > Isn't the interrupt disabled by RESET? > > Nope. On the -11/03 and KDF11-A, BEVNT is wired straight into the CPU, and > there's no internal register to control it. > > The BDV11 does have a register which can enable/disable the LTC (it connects > BEVNT to ground via a transistor when the appropriate register bit is > cleared); but, ironically (given your question), BINIT/RESET does _not_ clear > that register! Only BPOK does. (My theory is they were short of a bus receiver > for BINIT, and rather than put a whole extra chip on the card...) So, once on, > it has to be explicitly turned off, or the 'boot' switch (which toggles BPOK) > has to be hit. > > The KDF11-B and all KDJ11 machines do have the LTC register, which operates > 'correctly'. > > Noel Everyone was right about what I was experiencing.? It was BEVNT/LTC.? The front panel switches on the BA11-M I have read: [HALT]? [RESTART] [AUX ON/OFF] and I can't turn off the LTC from the front panel.? I had to set a switch on the BDV11 to disable BEVNT and with that XXDP booted up.? Version 2.6. Would like to run the RXV21 diagnostics since I have a 2nd controller that fails to work with the RX02 emulator. Doug From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 14 10:30:42 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 08:30:42 -0700 Subject: Convergent Technologies NGEN and Datapoint monitor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <35b4496f-c85c-a13c-9666-ba2e93e30351@bitsavers.org> On 8/13/19 9:15 PM, Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk wrote: > So, do you guys know if Datapoint made monitors for others? Datapoint was a Convergent OEM. From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Wed Aug 14 10:53:03 2019 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 11:53:03 -0400 Subject: ADM-3A question In-Reply-To: <4518469134B84CD68B3B57D983D8138B@CharlesHPLaptop> References: <4518469134B84CD68B3B57D983D8138B@CharlesHPLaptop> Message-ID: I hope this thread will be written to a blog post? Lots of good info here! -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 10:25 AM Charles via cctalk wrote: > Thanks. I believe you are right also :) > The expensive ceramic packages have hermetic seals, not so the plastic > (epoxy) packages used in commercial grade parts. > > There are some kind of failures that can be fixed by baking - but I don't > know if this is one of them (if the bond wire is soldered to the die it > might work). If it detached from the weld at the lead frame, no go. Anyway > there are over 100 chips on the ADM-3A board and I would be more worried > about damaging the others with heat. > I just paid 71 cents for another LS193 ;) > > Charles > WB3JOK/0 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Wade > Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 5:02 AM > To: 'Charles' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: ADM-3A question > > Charles, > > I believe that TTL chips suffer from failure or detachment of the bonding > wire that runs from the die to the interconnect pin, which would result in > a > floating pin as described.] > Not sure if environmental storage affects this as chips should be sealed... > > I have also recently seen it suggested that heating the chip up in an oven > could affect a temporary repair (sorry I can't find the reference now). > > Dave > G4UGM > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Charles via > cctalk > > Sent: 14 August 2019 00:20 > > To: cctalk digest > > Subject: Re: ADM-3A question > > > > After hanging vertically for 36 hrs in a hot upstairs room, more goop > seeped > > out from under the keyboard. It now works again. Whew. > > > > While running on the bench for burn-in testing, a cursor problem suddenly > > appeared... it would only move every other keystroke. With the technical > > description and schematic at hand, it wasn't hard to track down a 74LS193 > > up/down counter with a blown (floating) LSB output. Confirmed by manually > > toggling that bit and the cursor would move back and forth one position. > > Meanwhile I removed the bad chip and put in a DIP socket. Naturally my > TTL > > collection didn't have an 'LS193 so I'm waiting on that. So I have a 24 > line, 1 > > column terminal :) > > > > The monitor was occasionally intermittent (no display at all, no HV, +15 > and > > drive signals OK). It seemed to change with movement of the wiring > harness > > from the main board to the monitor, too. I reseated the edge connector on > its > > PCB and it seemed to be fixed - but then the VERTICAL deflection > collapsed > and > > tweaking the height adjustment caused increasing loss. The 100 ohm pot to > the > > base of the vertical output transistor had picked that moment to go open. > > Changed that out and readjusted everything - so far so good after another > hour > > of run time. > > > > This ADM-3A could have been unpowered (and in a storage area without > > climate > > control) for a very long time. I wonder if that contributed to the > failures I'm > > seeing... hope there aren't any more until I get to use it for a while on > my PDP- > > 8/A (or 11/23+). > > > > > > --- > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 14 11:05:34 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 09:05:34 -0700 Subject: ADM-3A question In-Reply-To: References: <4518469134B84CD68B3B57D983D8138B@CharlesHPLaptop> Message-ID: <4f1652e0-f7de-73fa-bbd8-1b947549f07b@bitsavers.org> On 8/14/19 8:53 AM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > I hope this thread will be written to a blog post Buried in a filing cabinet in the basement with a sign that says "Beware of Leopard". Blogs are a stupid way to archive information, almost as stupid as putting it on Facebook. From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Aug 14 11:06:48 2019 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 12:06:48 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 59, Issue 13 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Will... I?m still waiting for you and the Rhode Island Computer Society to get my brand new in the box 9766, the Alignment disk platter, the box of spare heads and the other unit 9766 beat up unit up and running that I gave you to donate to RICS for free in exchange for you reading the dozen 300mb platters I have and then once the data was read they could keep the platters... So still waiting on that... hint hint hint > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 14:09:16 -0400 > From: William Donzelli > To: P Gebhardt , "General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Control Data 9766 drive on epay > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > There is a Make Offer option, and it does look like the seller does > take offers fairly regularly. I will not be buying it. > > If someone does, I have a huge amount of spares for 976x drives, > including refurbished heads. It might take a while to find them in my > mess, however. > > -- > Will > > From web at loomcom.com Wed Aug 14 12:14:29 2019 From: web at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 10:14:29 -0700 Subject: ADM-3A question In-Reply-To: <4f1652e0-f7de-73fa-bbd8-1b947549f07b@bitsavers.org> References: <4518469134B84CD68B3B57D983D8138B@CharlesHPLaptop> <4f1652e0-f7de-73fa-bbd8-1b947549f07b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <87blwrbrey.fsf@loomcom.com> Al Kossow via cctalk writes: > On 8/14/19 8:53 AM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: >> I hope this thread will be written to a blog post > > Buried in a filing cabinet in the basement with a sign that says > "Beware of Leopard". > > Blogs are a stupid way to archive information, almost as stupid as > putting it on Facebook. I'm going to respectfully disagree, with some major caveats. I do agree with some of the sentiment, I think: The web, in general, is a terrible way to archive information. Moreover, the architecture of the modern web is such that information archival and retrieval is getting much worse. I base that opinion on the proliferation of modern JavaScript frameworks that are designed to build single-page apps, and make the web virtually impossible to scrape or mirror in an efficient and simple way. But that said, the web is still the best we've got for the time being. And if you eschew those single page apps, simple stacks of hyperlinked HTML documents are much, much better than nothing. For example, I have a lot of 3B2 documents and disk images archived on what is essentially an Apache instance with FancyIndexing turned on and some custom CSS and .htaccess files. I also maintain a blog on the same domain (https://loomcom.com/blog/), but every single page is statically generated at publishing time and absolutely nothing is dynamic. I think that's a fine (but not great) way to archive information. At least, better than nothing. In my dream of dreams, I'd like to see a peer-to-peer network of archival boxes ensuring the integrity of distributed documents with shared consensus, very similar to the LOCKSS distributed journal archival system that Stanford put out. But that's a lot of work and community building (the latter being harder than the former), so I don't know how realistic it is. I the meantime, I'm OK with blogs. Much, much more OK than walled gardens like Facebook. -Seth From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Aug 14 13:01:03 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 14:01:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ADM-3A question Message-ID: <20190814180103.5EB0918C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> >> Al Kossow via cctalk writes: >> Buried in a filing cabinet in the basement with a sign that says >> "Beware of Leopard". Good one! > From: Seth J. Morabito > I'm going to respectfully disagree .. the proliferation of modern > JavaScript frameworks that are designed to build single-page apps, and > make the web virtually impossible to scrape or mirror in an efficient > and simple way. ... every single page is statically generated at > publishing time and absolutely nothing is dynamic. It's not clear that it's the dynamic nature of the content he's unhappy with; it might just be that having stuff scattered across a zillion personal pages (be they blogs, or whatever) is going to make it hard to find the useful one when needed, and that's why he's cranky. (Well, more so than he usually is.... :-) If it's got something oddball term in the text, a Web indexer might be able to find it, but what if your search term turns up 17,239 matches? Finding the useful needle in the hackstack of crap on the current Web is a tall order - so tall, that I suspect a lot of people don't even try, just shoot off an email to CCTalk in the hopes that someone here will enlighten them. I've seen a number of instances recently where people's questions were answered on the CHWiki, but apparently they couldn't find it. So they wound up asking here... Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Aug 14 13:19:58 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 14:19:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: XXDP on PDP-11/03 Message-ID: <20190814181958.706F318C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jonathan (systems_glitch) > Yep, fun times on LSI-11/2! Heh, this one was _utterly trivial_ compared to the 'must have working memory at 0 or ODT won't start'! (I don't think I've ever seen that one in DEC documentation anywhere...) Noel From web at loomcom.com Wed Aug 14 13:46:11 2019 From: web at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 11:46:11 -0700 Subject: ADM-3A question In-Reply-To: <20190814180103.5EB0918C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190814180103.5EB0918C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <87k1bfegb0.fsf@loomcom.com> Noel Chiappa via cctalk writes: > >> Al Kossow via cctalk writes: > > >> Buried in a filing cabinet in the basement with a sign that > >> says "Beware of Leopard". > > Good one! > > > From: Seth J. Morabito > > > I'm going to respectfully disagree .. the proliferation of > > modern JavaScript frameworks that are designed to build > > single-page apps, and make the web virtually impossible to > > scrape or mirror in an efficient and simple way. ... every > > single page is statically generated at publishing time and > > absolutely nothing is dynamic. > > It's not clear that it's the dynamic nature of the content he's > unhappy with; it might just be that having stuff scattered across a > zillion personal pages (be they blogs, or whatever) is going to make > it hard to find the useful one when needed, and that's why he's > cranky. (Well, more so than he usually is.... :-) I agree, this is a very valid complaint. The sheer vastness of content available, combined with a Google monoculture, combined with a concerted attempt to GAME the Google monoculture, is making search and discovery hard. I honestly don't know what to do about it. I don't have a better idea, unless we go back to something like a directory-style curated experience, a-la Yahoo! circa 1998-ish. Not that that doesn't have it's own horrible problems, of course. > Noel -Seth From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Wed Aug 14 13:49:19 2019 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 14:49:19 -0400 Subject: ADM-3A question In-Reply-To: <20190814180103.5EB0918C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190814180103.5EB0918C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: "and that's why he's cranky. (Well, more so than he usually is.... :-)" A wealth of vintage cmp information, but good heavens he is cranky. -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 2:01 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Al Kossow via cctalk writes: > > >> Buried in a filing cabinet in the basement with a sign that says > >> "Beware of Leopard". > > Good one! > > > From: Seth J. Morabito > > > I'm going to respectfully disagree .. the proliferation of modern > > JavaScript frameworks that are designed to build single-page apps, > and > > make the web virtually impossible to scrape or mirror in an efficient > > and simple way. ... every single page is statically generated at > > publishing time and absolutely nothing is dynamic. > > It's not clear that it's the dynamic nature of the content he's unhappy > with; > it might just be that having stuff scattered across a zillion personal > pages > (be they blogs, or whatever) is going to make it hard to find the useful > one > when needed, and that's why he's cranky. (Well, more so than he usually > is.... :-) > > If it's got something oddball term in the text, a Web indexer might be able > to find it, but what if your search term turns up 17,239 matches? Finding > the > useful needle in the hackstack of crap on the current Web is a tall order - > so tall, that I suspect a lot of people don't even try, just shoot off an > email to CCTalk in the hopes that someone here will enlighten them. > > I've seen a number of instances recently where people's questions were > answered on the CHWiki, but apparently they couldn't find it. So they > wound up asking here... > > Noel > From allisonportable at gmail.com Wed Aug 14 15:26:15 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (Allison Parent) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 16:26:15 -0400 Subject: XXDP on PDP-11/03 In-Reply-To: <20190814181958.706F318C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190814181958.706F318C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <33548EDE-0FB3-4BE9-A210-3F002044633C@gmail.com> IPhoned it in! > On Aug 14, 2019, at 2:19 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Jonathan (systems_glitch) > Yep, fun times on LSI-11/2! Heh, this one was _utterly trivial_ compared to the 'must have working memory at 0 or ODT won't start'! (I don't think I've ever seen that one in DEC documentation anywhere...) Noel ! Seriously? The architecture of pdp-11 has the first 256 words as interrupt vectors and software locations. Memory of some form there is a must. How else would the console vectors at 60 work. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Aug 14 15:30:56 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 14:30:56 -0600 Subject: ADM-3A question In-Reply-To: <87k1bfegb0.fsf@loomcom.com> References: <20190814180103.5EB0918C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <87k1bfegb0.fsf@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <2f04f41b-ebc3-61ac-7f26-97585961165d@jetnet.ab.ca> On 8/14/2019 12:46 PM, Seth J. Morabito via cctalk wrote: >> It's not clear that it's the dynamic nature of the content he's >> unhappy with; it might just be that having stuff scattered across a >> zillion personal pages (be they blogs, or whatever) is going to make >> it hard to find the useful one when needed, and that's why he's >> cranky. (Well, more so than he usually is.... :-) > > I agree, this is a very valid complaint. > > The sheer vastness of content available, combined with a Google > monoculture, combined with a concerted attempt to GAME the Google > monoculture, is making search and discovery hard. I honestly don't know > what to do about it. I don't have a better idea, unless we go back to > something like a directory-style curated experience, a-la Yahoo! circa > 1998-ish. Not that that doesn't have it's own horrible problems, of > course. > !!!THE CLOUD!!! YOUR DATA IS IN OUR HANDS. JUST LIKE YOUR SOUL! My real complant is WEB SEARCHS only match SPONSED items and the latest buzz words. It gets worse on things like EBAY. XYZ123 SERIAL card for ABC789 computer might have 1 out of 10 hits that is NOT WINDOWS 64 ... Ben. From bhilpert at shaw.ca Wed Aug 14 15:53:33 2019 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 13:53:33 -0700 Subject: XXDP on PDP-11/03 In-Reply-To: <33548EDE-0FB3-4BE9-A210-3F002044633C@gmail.com> References: <20190814181958.706F318C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <33548EDE-0FB3-4BE9-A210-3F002044633C@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2019-Aug-14, at 1:26 PM, Allison Parent via cctalk wrote: > IPhoned it in! > >> On Aug 14, 2019, at 2:19 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> >> From: Jonathan (systems_glitch) > >> Yep, fun times on LSI-11/2! > > Heh, this one was _utterly trivial_ compared to the 'must have working memory > at 0 or ODT won't start'! (I don't think I've ever seen that one in DEC > documentation anywhere...) > > Noel > > ! Seriously? > The architecture of pdp-11 has > the first 256 words as interrupt > vectors and software locations. > Memory of some form there is > a must. How else would the console vectors at 60 work. Well, the J11 ODT works fine with no memory. I wouldn't have thought any of the (various 11 CPU) ODTs used interrupts for the console, and so wouldn't rely on the presence of vector memory. Don't know which CPU Noel was referring to. From als at thangorodrim.ch Wed Aug 14 16:36:24 2019 From: als at thangorodrim.ch (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 23:36:24 +0200 Subject: Raspberry Pi write cycles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20190814213624.6lwqgb476vfidcyt@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 02:43:38PM -0700, Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: > I did have a case where the Pi I was using as secondary DNS/DHCP and as the > secondary backup server (using USB spinning disk) destroyed its SD card. > > But then it turned out not to be the load at all. No matter what I ran on > that Pi, it would corrupt its SD cards in a matter of weeks (the symptom > was that the fourth bit of some bytes would just stick on). I assume it > was just something broken in the Pi itself. The two usual suspects: - standard consumer sd cards don't do so well outside of their design use case (mostly cameras and media players) and I suspect a journaling FS (which is a perfectly reasonable default, usually ext4 these days, for Linux) is probably especially bad - so I recommend looking for industrial grade SD cards, they cost a little more, are usually only available in smaller sizes (I've seen 8, 16, 32 GB) but they tend to last a lot longer - sub-par power supply, having the power brown out a little is _bad_ for basically any kind of reliable operation - make sure your PSU can actually reliably deliver enough juice (ISTR the recommendation being 3+ amps), I suppose the "official" ones from the Pi foundation should be up to the job > (Traffic encryption via simh is incredibly painful. You have to turn login > delay waaaaay up to run NetBSD on VAX on a Pi if you want to be able to ssh > into it; the machine itself runs fine-ish, but the zillions of cycles to > encrypt the traffic swamps it in no time.) If you want to stick with the Raspberry Pi platform, what kind of Pi are you currently using? If it is a Pi 3, maybe try a Pi 4, that is noticeably beefier. Note: with the Pi 4, you have to use the official power supply and cable as they screwed up the USB-C side (by _not_ exactly copying the schematic in the specs, saving one resistor on the BOM with the result that high end cables will mis-recognize the Pi as an 'audio accessory' and not power it). > And, you know, if you manage to cause my SD cards in those machines to > fail, well, gosh, guess I'm out $10 or so for a new one. I'm not bothering > to back up any of the stuff inside 'em, I assume you've got a master image that you just write to a new SD card, replace card, power cycle Pi, done? Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Aug 14 17:24:01 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 18:24:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: XXDP on PDP-11/03 Message-ID: <20190814222401.A75AD18C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Allison Parent > ! Seriously? ... Memory of some form there is a must. I don't know about you, but my approach in looking into hardware issues is often to start by reducing things to the simplest possible configuration that exhibits the failure. (I asssume the various reasons for that approach are obvious.) So, the OP couldn't get ODT to work. Well, what's the simplest config one needs for ODT? Well, a CPU (but it won't be executing any instructions, so one could leave HALT on), the console serial card (with a working terminal attached), a bus/backplane to plug them into, and a power supply. But no, the LSI-11 machines also want memory - although it's unused by ODT after a single read cycle at power-on. It's probably worth pointing out that this is _not_ true of the F-11 machines; those do ODT just fine without memory. Perhaps DEC got some complaints about the behaviour of the LSI-11, and made a change? I don't know if the front console on the early UNIBUS machines works without any memory on the UNIBUS - I'm too lazy to check. I have this vague memory that they do, though. > The architecture of pdp-11 has the first 256 words as interrupt vectors > and software locations. Some 'internal' interrupts from the CPU (e.g. NXM) are at fixed, low, locations (in Kernel D space on some of the models with MMU, to be technical - I don't know about the /40 and /34, etc), but there's nothing that restricts _device_ interrupts to be in low memory (either physical, or virtual on those machines which get vectors from Kernel virtual). E.g. in the "pdp-11 bus handbook" (EB 17525 20), pg. 119, it says "Place Vector on BDAL <15:00> L" - so one could use 0140000 if one wanted. Most DEC devices that do the vector with jumpers don't have posts for all 15 bits, it is true, but AFAIK no CPU looks at only the low bits on the bus. > How else would the console vectors at 60 work. ODT doesn't use interrupts. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Aug 14 17:35:26 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 18:35:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: XXDP on PDP-11/03 Message-ID: <20190814223526.1FE0E18C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Brent Hilpert > I wouldn't have thought any of the (various 11 CPU) ODTs used > interrupts for the console They don't. > Don't know which CPU Noel was referring to. The OP was having problems with an LSI-11 (M7264 quad card); I was working with an LSI-11/2 (M7270 dual card - I don't have any LSI-11's). But I'm pretty sure the CPUs on the two are identical; and certainly, both display the 'must have memory at 0 for ODT to work'. Noel From fritzm at fritzm.org Wed Aug 14 19:04:10 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 17:04:10 -0700 Subject: XXDP on PDP-11/03 In-Reply-To: <20190814222401.A75AD18C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190814222401.A75AD18C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > I don't know if the front console on the early UNIBUS machines works without > any memory on the UNIBUS - I'm too lazy to check. I have this vague memory that > they do, though. The front console on the '45 indeed does run just fine with no UNIBUS (or FASTBUS) memory in the machine. Its is entirely implemented/mediated by CPU microcode and CPU internal state registers. --FritzM. From systems.glitch at gmail.com Wed Aug 14 19:13:44 2019 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 20:13:44 -0400 Subject: GW-DEC-1: A New DEC Prototyping Board Message-ID: Connor Krukosky and I have been working on laying out a new quad-height DEC protoboard, which can also be sheared down into a dual-height board. Full announce on the VC Forums: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?71177-GW-DEC-1-A-New-Quad-Height-DEC-Prototyping-Board&p=582892#post582892 These should be available within a month or so. I'll be putting up a preorder soon to gauge interest in the production run, which as usual will have hard gold plating on the edge connectors. I haven't gotten a quote for the cost, but I expect them to be $30-40 each for production boards. They'll be available at VCF Midwest as well as online! Thanks, Jonathan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Aug 14 22:04:16 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 03:04:16 +0000 Subject: Raspberry Pi write cycles In-Reply-To: <20190814213624.6lwqgb476vfidcyt@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: , <20190814213624.6lwqgb476vfidcyt@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: Some of the newer larger SD cards use a different write voltage than 3.3V. There is a ways of asking the card what voltage it likes during the init. Using the full 3.3V on these parts can damage them. They are all required to init with 3.3V but the voltage for writing may be different. I've only played with the ones smaller than 2GB. But any time I get a new one, I check the voltage. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Alexander Schreiber via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 2:36 PM To: Adam Thornton ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Raspberry Pi write cycles On Fri, Aug 09, 2019 at 02:43:38PM -0700, Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: > I did have a case where the Pi I was using as secondary DNS/DHCP and as the > secondary backup server (using USB spinning disk) destroyed its SD card. > > But then it turned out not to be the load at all. No matter what I ran on > that Pi, it would corrupt its SD cards in a matter of weeks (the symptom > was that the fourth bit of some bytes would just stick on). I assume it > was just something broken in the Pi itself. The two usual suspects: - standard consumer sd cards don't do so well outside of their design use case (mostly cameras and media players) and I suspect a journaling FS (which is a perfectly reasonable default, usually ext4 these days, for Linux) is probably especially bad - so I recommend looking for industrial grade SD cards, they cost a little more, are usually only available in smaller sizes (I've seen 8, 16, 32 GB) but they tend to last a lot longer - sub-par power supply, having the power brown out a little is _bad_ for basically any kind of reliable operation - make sure your PSU can actually reliably deliver enough juice (ISTR the recommendation being 3+ amps), I suppose the "official" ones from the Pi foundation should be up to the job > (Traffic encryption via simh is incredibly painful. You have to turn login > delay waaaaay up to run NetBSD on VAX on a Pi if you want to be able to ssh > into it; the machine itself runs fine-ish, but the zillions of cycles to > encrypt the traffic swamps it in no time.) If you want to stick with the Raspberry Pi platform, what kind of Pi are you currently using? If it is a Pi 3, maybe try a Pi 4, that is noticeably beefier. Note: with the Pi 4, you have to use the official power supply and cable as they screwed up the USB-C side (by _not_ exactly copying the schematic in the specs, saving one resistor on the BOM with the result that high end cables will mis-recognize the Pi as an 'audio accessory' and not power it). > And, you know, if you manage to cause my SD cards in those machines to > fail, well, gosh, guess I'm out $10 or so for a new one. I'm not bothering > to back up any of the stuff inside 'em, I assume you've got a master image that you just write to a new SD card, replace card, power cycle Pi, done? Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Aug 14 22:49:14 2019 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 23:49:14 -0400 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Grid_1537_=E2=80=9DTempest=E2=80=9D_schematics?= Message-ID: <74391CDF-65DD-4024-BD6F-C630F8492C65@atarimuseum.com> Hi, I?m doing some work for a friend who has one of these unicorns it?s apparently a super beefed up CIA use the laptop that wound up in Russia somehow and he got it shipped back here to the US The motherboard was modified it looks like the hard drive was on some kind of a tray going to a connector which is IDE compatible Someone had extremely poorly soldered on an IDE cable in place of the sled and over the years several of the pans of popped off and they?re not really making sense as to the solder points they?re supposed to go to. Complicating the matter is the paint outs are not just a direct staggered 40 Pin to Pin connection several of the through holes are not in use so just soldering on I had her and plug in the cable into it is not possible also the pens are staggered so that wouldn?t make it possible either. So to cut to the chase does anyone have the schematics or the motherboard pinouts for this connector so that I can do a proper soldering job and put on a clean working cable so that this laptop can vote from the IDE hard drive? From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Aug 14 23:22:46 2019 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 23:22:46 -0500 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IEdyaWQgMTUzNyDigJ1UZW1wZXN04oCdIHNjaGVtYXRpY3M=?= In-Reply-To: <74391CDF-65DD-4024-BD6F-C630F8492C65@atarimuseum.com> References: <74391CDF-65DD-4024-BD6F-C630F8492C65@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: u got any pics of this thing? On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 10:49 PM Curt Vendel via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi, > > I?m doing some work for a friend who has one of these unicorns it?s > apparently a super beefed up CIA use the laptop that wound up in Russia > somehow and he got it shipped back here to the US > > The motherboard was modified it looks like the hard drive was on some kind > of a tray going to a connector which is IDE compatible > > Someone had extremely poorly soldered on an IDE cable in place of the sled > and over the years several of the pans of popped off and they?re not really > making sense as to the solder points they?re supposed to go to. > Complicating the matter is the paint outs are not just a direct staggered > 40 Pin to Pin connection several of the through holes are not in use so > just soldering on I had her and plug in the cable into it is not possible > also the pens are staggered so that wouldn?t make it possible either. > > So to cut to the chase does anyone have the schematics or the motherboard > pinouts for this connector so that I can do a proper soldering job and put > on a clean working cable so that this laptop can vote from the IDE hard > drive? > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 15 00:17:34 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 22:17:34 -0700 Subject: Raspberry Pi write cycles In-Reply-To: References: <20190814213624.6lwqgb476vfidcyt@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <433e8bad-2de1-7e86-75e6-ed5ea04e68fa@sydex.com> On 8/14/19 8:04 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > Some of the newer larger SD cards use a different write voltage than 3.3V. There is a ways of asking the card what voltage it likes during the init. > Using the full 3.3V on these parts can damage them. > They are all required to init with 3.3V but the voltage for writing may be different. > I've only played with the ones smaller than 2GB. But any time I get a new one, I check the voltage. > Dwight Does the Pi use the spi interface or the SD 4 bit interface? The latter is faster and I'd expect the Pi to use it. I've modified the bootloader on my OPi systems to use USB pen drives. Seems to work just fine. FWIW, SD, SDHC and SDXC cards work fine (per spec) at 3.3V. I use 16 and 32GB ones at 3.3V and they work flawlessly. You *can* command SDHC and SDXC to 1.8V, but the conversation is usually started at 3.3V. --Chuck From ian.finder at gmail.com Thu Aug 15 01:51:58 2019 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 23:51:58 -0700 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IEdyaWQgMTUzNyDigJ1UZW1wZXN04oCdIHNjaGVtYXRpY3M=?= In-Reply-To: <74391CDF-65DD-4024-BD6F-C630F8492C65@atarimuseum.com> References: <74391CDF-65DD-4024-BD6F-C630F8492C65@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: I was under the impression that the internal hard drive on the 1537 is SCSI and not IDE. Careful, some of those pins have +12 power for the drive on them as well. On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 8:49 PM Curt Vendel via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi, > > I?m doing some work for a friend who has one of these unicorns it?s > apparently a super beefed up CIA use the laptop that wound up in Russia > somehow and he got it shipped back here to the US > > The motherboard was modified it looks like the hard drive was on some kind > of a tray going to a connector which is IDE compatible > > Someone had extremely poorly soldered on an IDE cable in place of the sled > and over the years several of the pans of popped off and they?re not really > making sense as to the solder points they?re supposed to go to. > Complicating the matter is the paint outs are not just a direct staggered > 40 Pin to Pin connection several of the through holes are not in use so > just soldering on I had her and plug in the cable into it is not possible > also the pens are staggered so that wouldn?t make it possible either. > > So to cut to the chase does anyone have the schematics or the motherboard > pinouts for this connector so that I can do a proper soldering job and put > on a clean working cable so that this laptop can vote from the IDE hard > drive? > > From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Aug 15 03:23:02 2019 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 10:23:02 +0200 Subject: GW-DEC-1: A New DEC Prototyping Board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2019-08-15 02:13, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > Connor Krukosky and I have been working on laying out a new quad-height DEC > protoboard, which can also be sheared down into a dual-height board. Full > announce on the VC Forums: > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?71177-GW-DEC-1-A-New-Quad-Height-DEC-Prototyping-Board&p=582892#post582892 Was always hoping somebody would do something like that, but with the bus interface already on it ... From sales at elecplus.com Thu Aug 15 08:37:26 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 08:37:26 -0500 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?RE:_Grid_1537_=E2=80=9DTempest=E2=80=9D_schemati?= =?utf-8?Q?cs?= In-Reply-To: <74391CDF-65DD-4024-BD6F-C630F8492C65@atarimuseum.com> References: <74391CDF-65DD-4024-BD6F-C630F8492C65@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <025301d5536e$94172370$bc456a50$@com> The manufacturer might still have them. https://www.griduk.com/ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Curt Vendel via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 10:49 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Grid 1537 ?Tempest? schematics Hi, I?m doing some work for a friend who has one of these unicorns it?s apparently a super beefed up CIA use the laptop that wound up in Russia somehow and he got it shipped back here to the US The motherboard was modified it looks like the hard drive was on some kind of a tray going to a connector which is IDE compatible Someone had extremely poorly soldered on an IDE cable in place of the sled and over the years several of the pans of popped off and they?re not really making sense as to the solder points they?re supposed to go to. Complicating the matter is the paint outs are not just a direct staggered 40 Pin to Pin connection several of the through holes are not in use so just soldering on I had her and plug in the cable into it is not possible also the pens are staggered so that wouldn?t make it possible either. So to cut to the chase does anyone have the schematics or the motherboard pinouts for this connector so that I can do a proper soldering job and put on a clean working cable so that this laptop can vote from the IDE hard drive? --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From pbirkel at gmail.com Thu Aug 15 09:21:15 2019 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 10:21:15 -0400 Subject: GW-DEC-1: A New DEC Prototyping Board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02b101d55374$b369ba20$1a3d2e60$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of emanuel stiebler via cctech Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 4:23 AM To: systems_glitch; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: GW-DEC-1: A New DEC Prototyping Board On 2019-08-15 02:13, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > Connor Krukosky and I have been working on laying out a new quad-height DEC > protoboard, which can also be sheared down into a dual-height board. Full > announce on the VC Forums: > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?71177-GW-DEC-1-A-New-Quad-Height-DEC-Prototyping-Board&p=582892#post582892 Was always hoping somebody would do something like that, but with the bus interface already on it ... ----- But which bus? There are three ... ----- From pbirkel at gmail.com Thu Aug 15 09:21:15 2019 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 10:21:15 -0400 Subject: GW-DEC-1: A New DEC Prototyping Board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02b101d55374$b369ba20$1a3d2e60$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of emanuel stiebler via cctech Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 4:23 AM To: systems_glitch; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: GW-DEC-1: A New DEC Prototyping Board On 2019-08-15 02:13, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > Connor Krukosky and I have been working on laying out a new quad-height DEC > protoboard, which can also be sheared down into a dual-height board. Full > announce on the VC Forums: > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?71177-GW-DEC-1-A-New-Quad-Height-DEC-Prototyping-Board&p=582892#post582892 Was always hoping somebody would do something like that, but with the bus interface already on it ... ----- But which bus? There are three ... ----- From systems.glitch at gmail.com Thu Aug 15 11:11:11 2019 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 12:11:11 -0400 Subject: GW-DEC-1: A New DEC Prototyping Board In-Reply-To: <02b101d55374$b369ba20$1a3d2e60$@gmail.com> References: <02b101d55374$b369ba20$1a3d2e60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: And then there's things that use the same connector, but it's none of the three more common DEC buses! The need that led to the development of this prototype board is actually replacing missing boards in a VT05! Thanks, Jonathan On Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 10:21 AM Paul Birkel wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of emanuel > stiebler via cctech > Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 4:23 AM > To: systems_glitch; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: GW-DEC-1: A New DEC Prototyping Board > > On 2019-08-15 02:13, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > > Connor Krukosky and I have been working on laying out a new quad-height > DEC > > protoboard, which can also be sheared down into a dual-height board. Full > > announce on the VC Forums: > > > > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?71177-GW-DEC-1-A-New-Quad-Height-DEC-Prototyping-Board&p=582892#post582892 > > Was always hoping somebody would do something like that, but with the > bus interface already on it ... > > ----- > > But which bus? There are three ... > > ----- > > From systems.glitch at gmail.com Thu Aug 15 11:11:11 2019 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 12:11:11 -0400 Subject: GW-DEC-1: A New DEC Prototyping Board In-Reply-To: <02b101d55374$b369ba20$1a3d2e60$@gmail.com> References: <02b101d55374$b369ba20$1a3d2e60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: And then there's things that use the same connector, but it's none of the three more common DEC buses! The need that led to the development of this prototype board is actually replacing missing boards in a VT05! Thanks, Jonathan On Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 10:21 AM Paul Birkel wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of emanuel > stiebler via cctech > Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 4:23 AM > To: systems_glitch; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: GW-DEC-1: A New DEC Prototyping Board > > On 2019-08-15 02:13, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > > Connor Krukosky and I have been working on laying out a new quad-height > DEC > > protoboard, which can also be sheared down into a dual-height board. Full > > announce on the VC Forums: > > > > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?71177-GW-DEC-1-A-New-Quad-Height-DEC-Prototyping-Board&p=582892#post582892 > > Was always hoping somebody would do something like that, but with the > bus interface already on it ... > > ----- > > But which bus? There are three ... > > ----- > > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 15 11:17:05 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 09:17:05 -0700 Subject: GW-DEC-1: A New DEC Prototyping Board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1e90c696-d04a-6865-19e6-51360cd602b0@bitsavers.org> On 8/14/19 5:13 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > These should be available within a month or so. I'll be putting up a > preorder soon to gauge interest in the production run Do all three busses share the same ground pins? Many proto boards I've seen have ground planes on the board backside. Other suggestions I've seen are beefing up the trace widths (esp for the power pins) and changing the pin spacing to be able to use a .1" header for the edge connector pins. From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Aug 15 11:33:36 2019 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 09:33:36 -0700 Subject: GW-DEC-1: A New DEC Prototyping Board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A8ABA65-8CC6-45F3-9A7F-53A15B5F146F@shiresoft.com> Speaking from experience from having done a few Unibus boards now (none of them available yet unfortunately) that providing a general Unibus interface on a quad board will consume a reasonable amount of the board space and limit flexibility on which driver/receiver/transceiver parts that can be used. That?s just for the Unibus drivers. If you want to actually *run* the interface then you?re talking a lot more stuff. Of course, the boards I?m doing are all SMD (with the exception of the unibus interface parts). I also have to add in 5v to 3.3v conversion. Even on a 4 layer board there?s lots of ?congestion? which limits the number of parts that can actually placed on the board. :-( TTFN - Guy > On Aug 15, 2019, at 1:23 AM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > > On 2019-08-15 02:13, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: >> Connor Krukosky and I have been working on laying out a new quad-height DEC >> protoboard, which can also be sheared down into a dual-height board. Full >> announce on the VC Forums: >> >> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?71177-GW-DEC-1-A-New-Quad-Height-DEC-Prototyping-Board&p=582892#post582892 > > Was always hoping somebody would do something like that, but with the > bus interface already on it ... From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Aug 15 11:45:10 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 12:45:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: GW-DEC-1: A New DEC Prototyping Board Message-ID: <20190815164510.4C0FD18C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Birkel > But which bus? There are three ... So I'm clearly not very awake this morning. I can only think of two major quad-width DEC standard slots - SPC (UNIBUS) and dual QBUS. What's the third - PMI? (MUD is hex, as is Fastbus.) Or OMNIBUS, if we're not restricted to PDP-11's? Noel From pbirkel at gmail.com Thu Aug 15 12:16:13 2019 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 13:16:13 -0400 Subject: GW-DEC-1: A New DEC Prototyping Board In-Reply-To: <20190815164510.4C0FD18C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190815164510.4C0FD18C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <030001d5538d$248b70f0$6da252d0$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel Chiappa via cctalk Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 12:45 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: GW-DEC-1: A New DEC Prototyping Board > From: Paul Birkel > But which bus? There are three ... So I'm clearly not very awake this morning. I can only think of two major quad-width DEC standard slots - SPC (UNIBUS) and dual QBUS. What's the third - PMI? (MUD is hex, as is Fastbus.) Or OMNIBUS, if we're not restricted to PDP-11's? Noel ----- OMNIBUS, yes. Use case: http://tronola.com/html/ram_for_pdp-8e.html ----- From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Thu Aug 15 16:22:03 2019 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 14:22:03 -0700 Subject: Identification of an HP minicomputer In-Reply-To: <2094489944.6247370.1565648472261.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> References: <732232147.6205570.1565647168121.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <20F0529A-9251-4FC3-ABF2-55B331DEDFDA@shiresoft.com> <2094489944.6247370.1565648472261.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Message-ID: I found Brent Hilpert?s site most useful in getting a quick meaning for these numbers: http://madrona.ca/e/HP21xx/index.html http://madrona.ca/e/HP21xx/iointerfaces.html There is also a very useful series 1000 reference manual that lists most of the configs and options and cards, I will get to it when I am home and try to send you a link. My experience is that you absolutely have to open them up to figure out what they actually are. They are so modular and upgradable and interchangeable that the original config sticker rarely matches what?s inside. Actually, I have yet to see one that has a config that matches the factory sticker. Sometimes the motherboard isn?t even the series that the front panel says! Also you need to find out what optional microcode ROMs they are fitted with (extended/virtual memory, fast fortran, vector, scientific, etc...) to know what version of RTE they can actually run, and which boot ROMs are installed. That said they are very easy to take apart, just open front and back, slide out top and bottom covers, slide the cards out, and admire the modular design. They are also very well documented. Marc > On Aug 12, 2019, at 3:21 PM, Norman Jaffe via cctalk wrote: > > Perhaps these will help? > https://www.hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?hwimg=108 > http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/hewlett-packard/hp-21mx > > > From: "Guy Sotomayor Jr" > To: "myself" , "cctalk" > Sent: Monday, August 12, 2019 3:04:31 PM > Subject: Re: Identification of an HP minicomputer > > It?s a 9-slot variant that says HP-1000 M-Series on the front panel. From what I can tell the front panel appears to be the same as any of the other HP-1000 series. > > What I?m trying to figure out is what the actual CPU configuration is without disassembly (which I still need to figure out) so that I can actually examine the boards. > > Thanks. > > TTFN - Guy > >> On Aug 12, 2019, at 2:59 PM, Norman Jaffe via cctalk wrote: >> >> Can you provide a picture of the front panel? >> 2113 implies a 21MX-E; the nine-slot version is a 2109 while the fourteen-slot would be a 2113. >> This might help - https://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=109 . >> >> From: "cctalk" >> To: "cctalk" >> Sent: Monday, August 12, 2019 2:52:18 PM >> Subject: Identification of an HP minicomputer >> >> Hi, >> >> I have sitting in my pile of stuff an HP minicomputer that I?m trying to identify (at least in terms of exactly what it is and what sort of configuration it might have). >> >> As far as I can tell, it?s an HP-1000 M-Series minicomputer (that should hopefully get us *some* details). The ?asset tag? lists the part number as 2113023-108. Looking at the back there?s space for 9 I/O cards (5 are occupied). >> >> So my question is which of the several CPUs could this be and how do I tell (for example) what the configuration is (e.g. how much memory, etc). >> >> Yes, I have looked on bitsavers, but short of disassembling the box to look at the (at least) 2 boards that are below the I/O slots, I can?t tell what?s there and I?d like to see if there?s a way to determine what this is without resorting to disassembly. >> >> Thanks. >> >> TTFN - Guy From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Aug 15 16:27:16 2019 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 14:27:16 -0700 Subject: Identification of an HP minicomputer In-Reply-To: References: <732232147.6205570.1565647168121.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <20F0529A-9251-4FC3-ABF2-55B331DEDFDA@shiresoft.com> <2094489944.6247370.1565648472261.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <30421BA2-E9F4-4564-85C5-DE7A6358F3B6@shiresoft.com> Thanks Marc. What I?ve done is about all I have time for at the moment. Between work and prep?ing for potential fire evacuations (they?re expecting ~300 wild fires in my area this fire season?we?ve only had about 6 so far?so I expect *a lot* more soon) all of my time is gone. :-( TTFN - Guy > On Aug 15, 2019, at 2:22 PM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: > > I found Brent Hilpert?s site most useful in getting a quick meaning for these numbers: > http://madrona.ca/e/HP21xx/index.html > http://madrona.ca/e/HP21xx/iointerfaces.html > There is also a very useful series 1000 reference manual that lists most of the configs and options and cards, I will get to it when I am home and try to send you a link. > > My experience is that you absolutely have to open them up to figure out what they actually are. They are so modular and upgradable and interchangeable that the original config sticker rarely matches what?s inside. Actually, I have yet to see one that has a config that matches the factory sticker. Sometimes the motherboard isn?t even the series that the front panel says! > > Also you need to find out what optional microcode ROMs they are fitted with (extended/virtual memory, fast fortran, vector, scientific, etc...) to know what version of RTE they can actually run, and which boot ROMs are installed. That said they are very easy to take apart, just open front and back, slide out top and bottom covers, slide the cards out, and admire the modular design. They are also very well documented. > > Marc > >> On Aug 12, 2019, at 3:21 PM, Norman Jaffe via cctalk wrote: >> >> Perhaps these will help? >> https://www.hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?hwimg=108 >> http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/hewlett-packard/hp-21mx >> >> >> From: "Guy Sotomayor Jr" >> To: "myself" , "cctalk" >> Sent: Monday, August 12, 2019 3:04:31 PM >> Subject: Re: Identification of an HP minicomputer >> >> It?s a 9-slot variant that says HP-1000 M-Series on the front panel. From what I can tell the front panel appears to be the same as any of the other HP-1000 series. >> >> What I?m trying to figure out is what the actual CPU configuration is without disassembly (which I still need to figure out) so that I can actually examine the boards. >> >> Thanks. >> >> TTFN - Guy >> >>> On Aug 12, 2019, at 2:59 PM, Norman Jaffe via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> Can you provide a picture of the front panel? >>> 2113 implies a 21MX-E; the nine-slot version is a 2109 while the fourteen-slot would be a 2113. >>> This might help - https://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=109 . >>> >>> From: "cctalk" >>> To: "cctalk" >>> Sent: Monday, August 12, 2019 2:52:18 PM >>> Subject: Identification of an HP minicomputer >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I have sitting in my pile of stuff an HP minicomputer that I?m trying to identify (at least in terms of exactly what it is and what sort of configuration it might have). >>> >>> As far as I can tell, it?s an HP-1000 M-Series minicomputer (that should hopefully get us *some* details). The ?asset tag? lists the part number as 2113023-108. Looking at the back there?s space for 9 I/O cards (5 are occupied). >>> >>> So my question is which of the several CPUs could this be and how do I tell (for example) what the configuration is (e.g. how much memory, etc). >>> >>> Yes, I have looked on bitsavers, but short of disassembling the box to look at the (at least) 2 boards that are below the I/O slots, I can?t tell what?s there and I?d like to see if there?s a way to determine what this is without resorting to disassembly. >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> TTFN - Guy From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Aug 15 17:28:41 2019 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 18:28:41 -0400 Subject: VAX DATATRIEVE orange binders (4) Message-ID: Hi, I have four binders, pictured here: https://imgur.com/a/w9a3YEY * Reference Manual, AA-K079E-TE * Guide to Writing Reports, AA-P862C-TE * Handbook, AA-W675B-TE * User's Guide, AA-K080E-TE Did not see scans on bitsavers but it's possible I just overlooked them. Is there any interest in getting them scanned? I have a suitable scanner. I can also ship them (from Toronto, Canada) to anyone keen enough to pay shipping. --Toby From marvin at west.net Thu Aug 15 17:33:10 2019 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 15:33:10 -0700 Subject: Archiving information, was Re: ADM-3A question Message-ID: Al Kossow via cctalk writes: > On 8/14/19 8:53 AM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: >> I hope this thread will be written to a blog post > > Buried in a filing cabinet in the basement with a sign that says > "Beware of Leopard". > > Blogs are a stupid way to archive information, almost as stupid as > putting it on Facebook. The problem is not archiving, but rather retrieving the data. As a current example, I am looking for information on the Jonas Escort computers. A slight misspelling (Jonas instead of Jonos) resulted in a whole slew of graphic escort services. And spelling it properly has resulted in basically zero useful information about the computer itself. It is hard to believe the almost total lack of information on the Jonos. If the scarcity is real, it must be worth at least as much as the Apple I :). And ditto for the Molecular Computer although not as bad as the Jonos. BTW, these are two computers I'm looking at bringing to VCFMW if there is any serious interest. Instead of the search engines working to improve AI, they should be putting more effort into ESP. Marvin From ian at platinum.net Thu Aug 15 17:43:43 2019 From: ian at platinum.net (Ian McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 15:43:43 -0700 Subject: VAX DATATRIEVE orange binders (4) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6AED8E0E-E8AC-43EF-B2F0-D7F1E5CB63AA@platinum.net> Toby, I was unable to find them on Bitsavers or Vaxhaven so I would suspect they have yet to be captured. What would it take to get them scanned? That type of binding makes for quick work in a sheet-feed scanner. Ian > On Aug 15, 2019, at 3:28 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > > Hi, > > I have four binders, pictured here: https://imgur.com/a/w9a3YEY > > * Reference Manual, AA-K079E-TE > * Guide to Writing Reports, AA-P862C-TE > * Handbook, AA-W675B-TE > * User's Guide, AA-K080E-TE > > Did not see scans on bitsavers but it's possible I just overlooked them. > Is there any interest in getting them scanned? I have a suitable scanner. > > I can also ship them (from Toronto, Canada) to anyone keen enough to pay > shipping. > > --Toby > From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Aug 15 18:16:06 2019 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 19:16:06 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Grid_1537_=e2=80=9dTempest=e2=80=9d_schematics?= In-Reply-To: <025301d5536e$94172370$bc456a50$@com> References: <74391CDF-65DD-4024-BD6F-C630F8492C65@atarimuseum.com> <025301d5536e$94172370$bc456a50$@com> Message-ID: The owner tried them... Grid told him the design is owned by the US Govt and only they have the technicals on it... I was just hoping someone somehow leaked them out. I'm sure Grid has them, they just won't release them out the front door. On 8/15/2019 9:37 AM, Electronics Plus wrote: > The manufacturer might still have them. > https://www.griduk.com/ > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Curt Vendel via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 10:49 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Grid 1537 ?Tempest? schematics > > Hi, > > I?m doing some work for a friend who has one of these unicorns it?s apparently a super beefed up CIA use the laptop that wound up in Russia somehow and he got it shipped back here to the US > > The motherboard was modified it looks like the hard drive was on some kind of a tray going to a connector which is IDE compatible > > Someone had extremely poorly soldered on an IDE cable in place of the sled and over the years several of the pans of popped off and they?re not really making sense as to the solder points they?re supposed to go to. Complicating the matter is the paint outs are not just a direct staggered 40 Pin to Pin connection several of the through holes are not in use so just soldering on I had her and plug in the cable into it is not possible also the pens are staggered so that wouldn?t make it possible either. > > So to cut to the chase does anyone have the schematics or the motherboard pinouts for this connector so that I can do a proper soldering job and put on a clean working cable so that this laptop can vote from the IDE hard drive? > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Aug 15 18:41:33 2019 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 19:41:33 -0400 Subject: VAX DATATRIEVE orange binders (4) In-Reply-To: <6AED8E0E-E8AC-43EF-B2F0-D7F1E5CB63AA@platinum.net> References: <6AED8E0E-E8AC-43EF-B2F0-D7F1E5CB63AA@platinum.net> Message-ID: <61522c8d-1c29-6f66-7f99-bd59313101d4@telegraphics.com.au> On 2019-08-15 6:43 p.m., Ian McLaughlin wrote: > Toby, > > I was unable to find them on Bitsavers or Vaxhaven so I would suspect they have yet to be captured. > > What would it take to get them scanned? That type of binding makes for quick work in a sheet-feed scanner. > > Ian Hi Ian Yes it's an easy scanning job. I have a suitable Fujitsu fi-4530C ADF (great machine). Was just testing the waters for interest. If nobody speaks up for the original binders they will probably be recycled in a couple of weeks, after scanning. --Toby > > >> On Aug 15, 2019, at 3:28 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I have four binders, pictured here: https://imgur.com/a/w9a3YEY >> >> * Reference Manual, AA-K079E-TE >> * Guide to Writing Reports, AA-P862C-TE >> * Handbook, AA-W675B-TE >> * User's Guide, AA-K080E-TE >> >> Did not see scans on bitsavers but it's possible I just overlooked them. >> Is there any interest in getting them scanned? I have a suitable scanner. >> >> I can also ship them (from Toronto, Canada) to anyone keen enough to pay >> shipping. >> >> --Toby >> > > From ian at platinum.net Thu Aug 15 18:52:09 2019 From: ian at platinum.net (Ian McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 16:52:09 -0700 Subject: VAX DATATRIEVE orange binders (4) In-Reply-To: <61522c8d-1c29-6f66-7f99-bd59313101d4@telegraphics.com.au> References: <6AED8E0E-E8AC-43EF-B2F0-D7F1E5CB63AA@platinum.net> <61522c8d-1c29-6f66-7f99-bd59313101d4@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: Toby, Once scanned, I?d appreciate a copy of them so I can put them up on Vaxhaven if possible. Thanks for saving history :) Ian > On Aug 15, 2019, at 4:41 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > > On 2019-08-15 6:43 p.m., Ian McLaughlin wrote: >> Toby, >> >> I was unable to find them on Bitsavers or Vaxhaven so I would suspect they have yet to be captured. >> >> What would it take to get them scanned? That type of binding makes for quick work in a sheet-feed scanner. >> >> Ian > > Hi Ian > > Yes it's an easy scanning job. I have a suitable Fujitsu fi-4530C ADF > (great machine). Was just testing the waters for interest. > > If nobody speaks up for the original binders they will probably be > recycled in a couple of weeks, after scanning. > > --Toby > >> >> >>> On Aug 15, 2019, at 3:28 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I have four binders, pictured here: https://imgur.com/a/w9a3YEY >>> >>> * Reference Manual, AA-K079E-TE >>> * Guide to Writing Reports, AA-P862C-TE >>> * Handbook, AA-W675B-TE >>> * User's Guide, AA-K080E-TE >>> >>> Did not see scans on bitsavers but it's possible I just overlooked them. >>> Is there any interest in getting them scanned? I have a suitable scanner. >>> >>> I can also ship them (from Toronto, Canada) to anyone keen enough to pay >>> shipping. >>> >>> --Toby >>> >> >> > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 15 18:56:41 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 17:56:41 -0600 Subject: Archiving information, was Re: ADM-3A question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2917f69f-00e9-3719-387d-2a9318be2425@jetnet.ab.ca> On 8/15/2019 4:33 PM, Marvin Johnston via cctalk wrote: > Instead of the search engines working to improve AI, they should be > putting more effort into ESP. > However with 'FREE' web hosting vanishing faster the Dodo, you have lost most of the Small sites that may of had the information. A blog tends lose things after the current year. > Marvin My other gripe, is technical books tend to revise for the latest trend in marketing. A fictional book like "Software tools for fools", Version #1 8008, Version #2 Z80 Version #3 386. Version #4 RISC machine #5 latest machine available only for Beta testing. ***** library has removed books that have not been checked out in the last 3 years. We can borrow the latest copy when comes in print from the main branch. Ben. From sales at elecplus.com Thu Aug 15 19:10:38 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 19:10:38 -0500 Subject: Archiving information, was Re: ADM-3A question In-Reply-To: <2917f69f-00e9-3719-387d-2a9318be2425@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <2917f69f-00e9-3719-387d-2a9318be2425@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <020e01d553c7$08e684e0$1ab38ea0$@com> OTOH, there are vast quantities of old manuals, schematics, text books, etc. that get thrown out each year because no one will pay for them. I have had the unenjoyable experience of trashing boxes full of stuff because they did not sell. $1-5 is pretty cheap, considering the time to check the condition, photograph, list on website, pack it properly, and get it to the right place. If something has sat here for 23 years and not moved, it is soon going to go away. I filled up John's car last time he came down. I would much rather they went to a good home than the dumpster, but most people do not want the "clutter". -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ben via cctalk Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 6:57 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Archiving information, was Re: ADM-3A question On 8/15/2019 4:33 PM, Marvin Johnston via cctalk wrote: > Instead of the search engines working to improve AI, they should be > putting more effort into ESP. > However with 'FREE' web hosting vanishing faster the Dodo, you have lost most of the Small sites that may of had the information. A blog tends lose things after the current year. > Marvin My other gripe, is technical books tend to revise for the latest trend in marketing. A fictional book like "Software tools for fools", Version #1 8008, Version #2 Z80 Version #3 386. Version #4 RISC machine #5 latest machine available only for Beta testing. ***** library has removed books that have not been checked out in the last 3 years. We can borrow the latest copy when comes in print from the main branch. Ben. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Aug 15 19:38:13 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 20:38:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Archiving information, was Re: ADM-3A question Message-ID: <20190816003813.20BDE18C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Seth J. Morabito >> having stuff scattered across a zillion personal pages (be they blogs, >> or whatever) is going to make it hard to find the useful one when >> needed > The sheer vastness of content available, combined with a Google > monoculture, combined with a concerted attempt to GAME the Google > monoculture, is making search and discovery hard An additional issue, I think, is that Google is deprecating sites that use HTTP, versus HTTPS. I can't comment more, lest I start ranting at the utter stupidity of forcing everyone to use HTTPS. But if those blogs are using HTTP, that will push them down the results. > I honestly don't know what to do about it. I don't have a better idea, > unless we go back to something like a directory-style curated > experience, a-la Yahoo! circa 1998-ish. I'm not sure that would scale to cover detailed pages on obsolete computers; why is a manual indexer going to cover them? Anyway, the whole 'how do we find the info' is a part of why I started working on CHWiki, once I discovered it - in addition to the usual advantages of wikis (good for collaboration, good for adding stuff incrementally), it would put all the info in one place, a 'one stop shopping' for old computer info. But when I tried to convince people to post stuff there, instead of on their blogs, I got at least one person who was pretty vehement that no way in h*** were they going to stop putting their stuff in their own blog. Noel From linimon at lonesome.com Thu Aug 15 20:57:32 2019 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 01:57:32 +0000 Subject: Identification of an HP minicomputer In-Reply-To: <30421BA2-E9F4-4564-85C5-DE7A6358F3B6@shiresoft.com> References: <732232147.6205570.1565647168121.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <20F0529A-9251-4FC3-ABF2-55B331DEDFDA@shiresoft.com> <2094489944.6247370.1565648472261.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <30421BA2-E9F4-4564-85C5-DE7A6358F3B6@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <20190816015731.GA6661@lonesome.com> On Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 02:27:16PM -0700, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: > Between work and preparing for potential fire evacuations (they're > expecting ~300 wild fires in my area this fire season: we've only had > about 6 so far so I expect *a lot* more soon) Yikes! Please stay safe. mcl From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Aug 15 21:34:18 2019 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 22:34:18 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Grid_1537_=e2=80=9dTempest=e2=80=9d_schematics?= In-Reply-To: References: <74391CDF-65DD-4024-BD6F-C630F8492C65@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <44cbb388-02a0-923c-ab52-97cbd7b53612@atarimuseum.com> Nope - definitely IDE, had an IDE drive in it and someone just either didn't have the sled/tray anymore or just decided to do something on their own.? Either way, I have several of the lines from the cable that are off the through holes for the IDE interface. I've taken photo's, made a drawing of the pinouts on the motherboard and now I'm writing down what each of the through holes are going to on the IDE cable and then will work through the process of elimination and tracing (which is not easy as the motherboard has an RF grid pattern solder layer on the bottom of the motherboard (board is 4 layer) but some time and patience with a multimeter and I should be able to figure out where all of the detached lines need to go to, there are only 5 so hopefully it won't be too much work.?? Still trying to figure out which chip is managing the IDE, I found which manages the Floppy. Yes, the 12v actually has a power connector line run to it for the HD power, along with the 5v and GND's...? I need to redo those as well, they way they were done is not very safe. Once smart thing the person did was run the CMOS battery lines up through the media housing and used 2 AA battery holders to substitute for the CMOS battery and they tuck in very nicely nice to the storage shielding so you only have to undo the 2 back screws and life the back top section of cover off, versus complete taking the entire unit apart to get to the CMOS battery location on the motherboard. Its a very modular design, everything detaches separately, just the massive amount of shielding around everything makes taking it all apart quite the task.?? This'll probably be one of the only pieces of technology still working if an EMP bomb is ever detonated over the US ;-) On 8/15/2019 2:51 AM, Ian Finder wrote: > I was under the impression that the internal hard drive on the 1537 is > SCSI and not IDE. > Careful, some of those pins have?+12 power for the drive on them as well. > > > On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 8:49 PM Curt Vendel via cctalk > > wrote: > > Hi, > > ? I?m doing some work for a friend who has one of these unicorns > it?s apparently a super beefed up CIA use the laptop that wound up > in Russia somehow and he got it shipped back here to the US > > The motherboard was modified it looks like the hard drive was on > some kind of a tray going to a connector which is IDE compatible > > Someone had extremely poorly soldered on an IDE cable in place of > the sled and over the years several of the pans of popped off and > they?re not really making sense as to the solder points they?re > supposed to go to.? Complicating the matter is the paint outs are > not just a direct staggered 40 Pin to Pin connection several of > the through holes are not in use so just soldering on I had her > and plug in the cable into it is not possible also the pens are > staggered so that wouldn?t make it possible either. > > So to cut to the chase does anyone have the schematics or the > motherboard pinouts for this connector so that I can do a proper > soldering job and put on a clean working cable so that this laptop > can vote from the IDE hard drive? > --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com From echristopherson at gmail.com Thu Aug 15 22:24:19 2019 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 22:24:19 -0500 Subject: Archiving information, was Re: ADM-3A question In-Reply-To: <20190816003813.20BDE18C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190816003813.20BDE18C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 15, 2019, 7:38 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > Anyway, the whole 'how do we find the info' is a part of why I started > working on CHWiki, once I discovered it - in addition to the usual > advantages > of wikis (good for collaboration, good for adding stuff incrementally), it > would put all the info in one place, a 'one stop shopping' for old computer > info. > Psst: it would've been a good idea to share the URL to CHWiki. It's http://gunkies.org/wiki/Main_Page - the address to a site I was already familiar with, but not under the name you used for it. (It was a bit hard to find with Google, which just goes to show...) -- Eric Christopherson From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Aug 15 23:29:24 2019 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 21:29:24 -0700 Subject: Identification of an HP minicomputer In-Reply-To: <20190816015731.GA6661@lonesome.com> References: <732232147.6205570.1565647168121.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <20F0529A-9251-4FC3-ABF2-55B331DEDFDA@shiresoft.com> <2094489944.6247370.1565648472261.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <30421BA2-E9F4-4564-85C5-DE7A6358F3B6@shiresoft.com> <20190816015731.GA6661@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <2D7CD635-6AEC-45E4-8CEF-30B22E51B057@shiresoft.com> > On Aug 15, 2019, at 6:57 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: > > On Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 02:27:16PM -0700, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: >> Between work and preparing for potential fire evacuations (they're >> expecting ~300 wild fires in my area this fire season: we've only had >> about 6 so far so I expect *a lot* more soon) > > Yikes! Please stay safe. That?s the plan. Thanks. We?ve had a fire (when I say fire, I mean wildfire and not what most folks are familiar with which are structure fires) near town yesterday and another one (a bit further away) today. So it?s picking up. To hit the expected 300 for this season, we?ll need about 2 per day! Fortunately most so far have been fairly small (20-80 acres). I know that sounds *large* (our property is 10 acres) but last year?s fire in Paradise was over 150,000 acres (~240 sq miles) and destroyed over 18,000 buildings. It is really hard to imagine the scale of the devastation. So everyone is taking this *much* more seriously now. Today?s fire had 6+ fire engines respond, 2 bulldozers and 2 air tankers respond. TTFN - Guy From useddec at gmail.com Thu Aug 15 23:55:40 2019 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 23:55:40 -0500 Subject: GW-DEC-1: A New DEC Prototyping Board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jonathan, If you are looking for someone to make the boards, I know someone in CA. I'll try to dig up his contact info this weekend. Paul On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 7:14 PM systems_glitch via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Connor Krukosky and I have been working on laying out a new quad-height DEC > protoboard, which can also be sheared down into a dual-height board. Full > announce on the VC Forums: > > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?71177-GW-DEC-1-A-New-Quad-Height-DEC-Prototyping-Board&p=582892#post582892 > > These should be available within a month or so. I'll be putting up a > preorder soon to gauge interest in the production run, which as usual will > have hard gold plating on the edge connectors. I haven't gotten a quote for > the cost, but I expect them to be $30-40 each for production boards. > They'll be available at VCF Midwest as well as online! > > Thanks, > Jonathan > From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Aug 15 18:19:35 2019 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2019 19:19:35 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Grid_1537_=e2=80=9dTempest=e2=80=9d_schematics?= In-Reply-To: References: <74391CDF-65DD-4024-BD6F-C630F8492C65@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <94ea8132-d9eb-4c10-7a82-4b88fb505086@atarimuseum.com> Sure: On 8/15/2019 12:22 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > u got any pics of this thing? > > On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 10:49 PM Curt Vendel via cctalk > > wrote: > > Hi, > > ? I?m doing some work for a friend who has one of these unicorns > it?s apparently a super beefed up CIA use the laptop that wound up > in Russia somehow and he got it shipped back here to the US > > The motherboard was modified it looks like the hard drive was on > some kind of a tray going to a connector which is IDE compatible > > Someone had extremely poorly soldered on an IDE cable in place of > the sled and over the years several of the pans of popped off and > they?re not really making sense as to the solder points they?re > supposed to go to.? Complicating the matter is the paint outs are > not just a direct staggered 40 Pin to Pin connection several of > the through holes are not in use so just soldering on I had her > and plug in the cable into it is not possible also the pens are > staggered so that wouldn?t make it possible either. > > So to cut to the chase does anyone have the schematics or the > motherboard pinouts for this connector so that I can do a proper > soldering job and put on a clean working cable so that this laptop > can vote from the IDE hard drive? > --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Aug 16 01:21:12 2019 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 08:21:12 +0200 Subject: Scanner: was : Re: VAX DATATRIEVE orange binders (4) In-Reply-To: <61522c8d-1c29-6f66-7f99-bd59313101d4@telegraphics.com.au> References: <6AED8E0E-E8AC-43EF-B2F0-D7F1E5CB63AA@platinum.net> <61522c8d-1c29-6f66-7f99-bd59313101d4@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <50045894-a63e-eb87-64c1-7f71a7b1024c@e-bbes.com> On 2019-08-16 01:41, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > Yes it's an easy scanning job. I have a suitable Fujitsu fi-4530C ADF > (great machine). Was just testing the waters for interest Is this the same, Al is using? (can't find the reference anymore) From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Aug 16 01:21:36 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 02:21:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Archiving information, was Re: ADM-3A question Message-ID: <20190816062136.2969B18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Eric Christopherson >> Anyway, the whole 'how do we find the info' is a part of why I started >> working on CHWiki, once I discovered it > Psst: it would've been a good idea to share the URL to CHWiki. Well, that passing reference wasn't an attempt to get people to go look at it, hence no URL! :-) I was focused on the abstract discussion about 'how do we make information accessible, if relying on search engines to find blog postings doesn't work'. I have on several occasions posted appeals to this list for people to contribute content to it, and gotten almost no response (with one notable exception), in terms of added content; that was a large part of why I merely mentioned it in an offhand way. > a site I was already familiar with, but not under the name you used for > it. Ah, formally it's the 'Computer History Wiki', except that's a lot of typing, so I've been using 'CHWiki' as a short, easy-to-type, name for it for some time now. > (It was a bit hard to find with Google, which just goes to show...) Yeah, I added "CHWiki" to the text on the Main Page to make it a little easier to find from the short name, after a previous case where I'd used that term here, to some people's confusion. But I see it still doesn't work well; I guess I'll have to add 'CHWiki' links from more pages. Using 'Computer History Wiki' as a search term only works slightly better, though; it's at the bottom of the first page of results for me, below a bunch of Wikipedia links. Noel PS: In response to a point raised in a private reply to me; the site is for _all_ historical computers: personal computers, mainframes, the lot. I myself have added a lot of PDP-11 material, but only because I'm very fond of them, and know them well. The field of historial computers is _way_ too broad for one person to cover in depth, which is part of why I previously appealed to people who knew/were familar with other corners of it to add detailed content in those areas. From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Fri Aug 16 02:17:27 2019 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (mark at wickensonline.co.uk) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 08:17:27 +0100 Subject: Event Reminder: DEC Legacy is back on 9th-10th Nov 2019, Windermere UK Message-ID: <024601d55402$a909d7c0$fb1d8740$@wickensonline.co.uk> Just a quick reminder for those folk thinking about registering... The next DEC Legacy will take place Saturday 9th November 2019 - Sunday 10th at the Marchesi Centre in Windermere, North West UK. With a focus on Digital Equipment Corporation and their legacy of hardware, software and ethos I'm also extending an open invitation to those who are interested in SGI, HP, Sun, IBM and other high end hardware to come along and share their passion with us. Several formal presentations will be mixed with plenty of hands on time with hardware brought by enthusiasts. Enthusiasts are encouraged to bring along hardware and software to exhibit. The personal nature of the event brings a unique atmosphere within which friendships are easily forged. Registration is now open. Please visit http://wickensonline.co.uk/declegacy/ for more details. Kind Regards, Mark Wickens, M0NOM From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Aug 16 02:50:50 2019 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 09:50:50 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Archiving information, was Re: ADM-3A question In-Reply-To: <20190816003813.20BDE18C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190816003813.20BDE18C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Aug 2019, Noel Chiappa wrote: > An additional issue, I think, is that Google is deprecating sites that use > HTTP, versus HTTPS. I can't comment more, lest I start ranting at the utter Not true, in contrary, Google even crawls through FTP sites :-) Christian From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Aug 16 03:33:54 2019 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 09:33:54 +0100 Subject: Event Reminder: DEC Legacy is back on 9th-10th Nov 2019, Windermere UK In-Reply-To: <024601d55402$a909d7c0$fb1d8740$@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <024601d55402$a909d7c0$fb1d8740$@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <007c01d5540d$571687a0$054396e0$@ntlworld.com> I think I already booked didn't I? Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of mark--- via cctalk > Sent: 16 August 2019 08:17 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: Event Reminder: DEC Legacy is back on 9th-10th Nov 2019, > Windermere UK > > > Just a quick reminder for those folk thinking about registering... > > The next DEC Legacy will take place Saturday 9th November 2019 - Sunday > 10th at the Marchesi Centre in Windermere, North West UK. > > With a focus on Digital Equipment Corporation and their legacy of hardware, > software and ethos I'm also extending an open invitation to those who are > interested in SGI, HP, Sun, IBM and other high end hardware to come along > and share their passion with us. Several formal presentations will be mixed > with plenty of hands on time with hardware brought by enthusiasts. > > Enthusiasts are encouraged to bring along hardware and software to exhibit. > The personal nature of the event brings a unique atmosphere within which > friendships are easily forged. Registration is now open. > > Please visit http://wickensonline.co.uk/declegacy/ for more details. > > Kind Regards, > Mark Wickens, M0NOM > From classiccmp at crash.com Fri Aug 16 05:14:52 2019 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 03:14:52 -0700 Subject: Archiving information, was Re: ADM-3A question In-Reply-To: <20190816062136.2969B18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190816062136.2969B18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 08/15/2019 23:21, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > I have on several occasions posted appeals to this list for people to > contribute content to it, and gotten almost no response (with one notable > exception), in terms of added content; that was a large part of why I merely > mentioned it in an offhand way. I don't want to discourage anybody from contributing to this or any other project. However... Imagine if you will that many people, over many years, put a lot of work into pulling information together on a site with forums, and then distilling that information into a lot of wiki pages. Many discussions in the forums, with hard-won facts and interesting projects documented there. Things the manufacturer(s) never admitted you could do! So many wiki pages carefully explaining things, recording specifications, procedures, configurations, part numbers, substitutions. An incredibly useful resource and a very active community. Then imagine that a law is passed in a far away land, and the site owner decides it's is too risky to bother with, and they then take the entire site down - wiki and fora - with no warning and no access to the material... I'm not arguing against community collaborations at all - I guess I'm mostly just venting my considerable spleen. :( But I would strongly suggest that if people are going to do something of the scale you describe, they might want to consider setting up a distribution or replication mechanism at their earliest convenience. --S. From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Fri Aug 16 06:47:03 2019 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 07:47:03 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 59, Issue 13 (Curt Vendel) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2019 12:06:48 -0400 > From: Curt Vendel > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 59, Issue 13 > > Will... > > I?m still waiting for you and the Rhode Island Computer Society to get my > brand new in the box 9766, the Alignment disk platter, the box of spare > heads and the other unit 9766 beat up unit up and running that I gave you > to donate to RICS for free in exchange for you reading the dozen 300mb > platters I have and then once the data was read they could keep the > platters... > > So still waiting on that... hint hint hint > There are two vintage computer groups in Rhode Island, The Rhode Island Computer Museum , and the Retro-Computing Society of Rhode Island . In this case, Curt is talking about the Retro-Computing Society of Rhode Island. -- Michael Thompson From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Aug 16 08:35:40 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 09:35:40 -0400 Subject: Archiving information, was Re: ADM-3A question In-Reply-To: References: <20190816062136.2969B18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <4062D37C-42C7-45B6-A24F-D43A310E29B7@comcast.net> > On Aug 16, 2019, at 6:14 AM, Steven M Jones via cctalk wrote: > > On 08/15/2019 23:21, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> I have on several occasions posted appeals to this list for people to >> contribute content to it, and gotten almost no response (with one notable >> exception), in terms of added content; that was a large part of why I merely >> mentioned it in an offhand way. > > I don't want to discourage anybody from contributing to this or any other project. However... > > Imagine if you will that many people, over many years, put a lot of work into pulling information together on a site with forums, and then distilling that information into a lot of wiki pages. Many discussions in the forums, with hard-won facts and interesting projects documented there. Things the manufacturer(s) never admitted you could do! So many wiki pages carefully explaining things, recording specifications, procedures, configurations, part numbers, substitutions. An incredibly useful resource and a very active community. > > Then imagine that a law is passed in a far away land, and the site owner decides it's is too risky to bother with, and they then take the entire site down - wiki and fora - with no warning and no access to the material... You don't even have to assume government malice. Lots of providers have gone out of business without any warning simply because of not being economically viable. Or even because the operators decided they weren't interested any longer. Anything worth having around deserves backup. Which makes me wonder -- how is Wikipedia backed up? I guess it has a fork, which isn't quite the same thing. I know Bitsavers is replicated in a number of places. And one argument in favor of GIT is that every workspace is a full backup of the original, history and all. One should worry for smaller scale efforts, though. paul From systems.glitch at gmail.com Fri Aug 16 08:59:16 2019 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 09:59:16 -0400 Subject: GW-DEC-1: A New DEC Prototyping Board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Paul, I've got a board house I usually use, but if I can find a shop in the USA that will do hard gold plating and provide a comparable cost-per-board, I'd certainly switch! Thanks, Jonathan On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 12:55 AM Paul Anderson wrote: > Hi Jonathan, > > If you are looking for someone to make the boards, I know someone in CA. > I'll try to dig up his contact info this weekend. > > Paul > > > On Wed, Aug 14, 2019 at 7:14 PM systems_glitch via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Connor Krukosky and I have been working on laying out a new quad-height >> DEC >> protoboard, which can also be sheared down into a dual-height board. Full >> announce on the VC Forums: >> >> >> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?71177-GW-DEC-1-A-New-Quad-Height-DEC-Prototyping-Board&p=582892#post582892 >> >> These should be available within a month or so. I'll be putting up a >> preorder soon to gauge interest in the production run, which as usual will >> have hard gold plating on the edge connectors. I haven't gotten a quote >> for >> the cost, but I expect them to be $30-40 each for production boards. >> They'll be available at VCF Midwest as well as online! >> >> Thanks, >> Jonathan >> > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Aug 16 09:58:35 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 10:58:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Google site ordering (Was: Archiving information) Message-ID: <20190816145835.AAE8E18C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Christian Corti >> An additional issue, I think, is that Google is deprecating sites that >> use HTTP, versus HTTPS. > Not true, in contrary, Google even crawls through FTP sites :-) I did say "deprecate", not 'ignore totally'! :-) Here's what I know: An e-commerce site where I do a lot of business announced that they would switch to using HTTPS. I grumped, because I'd have to use a browser I don't like as much. The owner wrote back as follows: "next month Google will begin to demote all websites that are not https secure" I assume he knew what he was talking about (via his Web-site engineering people). I suppose I could research it, but I don't have the time right at the moment. I'd love to hear if anyone else knows more. Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Aug 16 10:08:47 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 08:08:47 -0700 Subject: Scanner: was : Re: VAX DATATRIEVE orange binders (4) In-Reply-To: <50045894-a63e-eb87-64c1-7f71a7b1024c@e-bbes.com> References: <6AED8E0E-E8AC-43EF-B2F0-D7F1E5CB63AA@platinum.net> <61522c8d-1c29-6f66-7f99-bd59313101d4@telegraphics.com.au> <50045894-a63e-eb87-64c1-7f71a7b1024c@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On 8/15/19 11:21 PM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > Is this the same, Al is using? > (can't find the reference anymore) > > The scanning info is on the main bitsavers.org page I'm still using a Panasonic KV-S3065CW I checked the backlog of scanned VAX manuals, and it doesn't look like I have anything more scanned fore DATATRIEVE From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Aug 16 10:11:48 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 10:11:48 -0500 Subject: Archiving information, was Re: ADM-3A question In-Reply-To: References: <20190816003813.20BDE18C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5D56C7B4.1020808@pico-systems.com> On 08/16/2019 02:50 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 15 Aug 2019, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> An additional issue, I think, is that Google is >> deprecating sites that use >> HTTP, versus HTTPS. I can't comment more, lest I start >> ranting at the utter > > Not true, in contrary, Google even crawls through FTP > sites :-) > I kind of wonder what this is all about? I mean, why do you have to encrypt today's weather report, a company's public web page, and such stuff. Just to waste CPU time? Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Aug 16 10:18:55 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 10:18:55 -0500 Subject: GW-DEC-1: A New DEC Prototyping Board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5D56C95F.6030903@pico-systems.com> On 08/16/2019 08:59 AM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > Paul, > > I've got a board house I usually use, but if I can find a shop in the USA > that will do hard gold plating and provide a comparable cost-per-board, I'd > certainly switch! > > There are few board houses in the US anymore, and they are usually doing aerospace or government work, and are quite expensive. Most of the supposedly US-based outfits now do almost all their fabrication in China. I use E-teknet, based in AZ, but their fabs are in China. They do VERY good work. In the distant past I did a lot of boards with US makers, but had a constant problem that they would charge me for electrical test, and then just cheat and NOT actually test the boards, just do a visual inspection. So, I ended up with 4-layer boards with shorts on the inner layers! And, only found those after stuffing the boards. A MAJOR pain, and I would blacklist those companies. Well, E-teknet has never done that to me. (The flying probe tester leaves TINY dots on the pads, so you can tell whether a board has been tested or not.) Jon From web at loomcom.com Fri Aug 16 10:31:42 2019 From: web at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 08:31:42 -0700 Subject: Archiving information, was Re: ADM-3A question In-Reply-To: <4062D37C-42C7-45B6-A24F-D43A310E29B7@comcast.net> References: <20190816062136.2969B18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4062D37C-42C7-45B6-A24F-D43A310E29B7@comcast.net> Message-ID: <874l2hw2ht.fsf@loomcom.com> Paul Koning via cctalk writes: > Anything worth having around deserves backup. Which makes me wonder > -- how is Wikipedia backed up? I guess it has a fork, which isn't > quite the same thing. I know Bitsavers is replicated in a number of > places. And one argument in favor of GIT is that every workspace is a > full backup of the original, history and all. > > One should worry for smaller scale efforts, though. This is a problem I think about a lot. In the early 2000s I worked on the LOCKSS program at Stanford University. LOCKSS stands for "Lots Of Copies Keep Stuff Safe", and is a distributed network of servers that replicate backup copies of electronic academic journals. It stemmed from a research project that looked at how to design an attack resistent peer-to-peer digital archival network. Each node in the network keeps a copy of the original journal content, does a cryptographic hash of each resource (HTML page, image, PDF, etc.), and participates in a steady stream of polls with all the other nodes where they vote on the hashes. If a minority of nodes loses a poll, their content is assumed to be damaged, missing, or bad, and they replicate the content from the winners of the poll. It's designed as a "Dark" archive, meaning the data is there, but nobody tries to access it unless the original web content disappears. Then, the servers act as transparent web proxies, so when you hit the original URL or URI, they serve up the content that's now missing from the real public Internet. It's a neat idea. It's also open source, and unencumbered with patents. I've always thought a similar model could be used to archive and replicate just about anything, but it's just one of those things that nobody's ever gotten around to doing. > paul -Seth -- Seth Morabito Poulsbo, WA, USA web at loomcom.com From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Aug 16 10:33:00 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 11:33:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Archiving information, was Re: ADM-3A question Message-ID: <20190816153301.0082F18C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Steven M Jones > imagine that a law is passed in a far away land, and the site owner > decides it's is too risky to bother with, and they then take the entire > site down - wiki and fora - with no warning and no access to the > material... > .. > I would strongly suggest that if people are going to do something of > the scale you describe, they might want to consider setting up a > distribution or replication mechanism Past events have made me very concerned about this issue! On a couple of occasions, Tore (who runs the CHWiki) has forgotten to pay the DNS fee, or something similar, and it went off-line (the first time for a week, as he was off camping). Leading to total panic on my part when he wasn't reachable, about all the content I'd written! There is an automatic backup system which sends copies to a machine at his house, so the particular scenario above (hosting sevice goes away with no warning) is not an issue. (Yes, a Chicxulub event in Scandanavia would defeat that, but we'd all probably have larger problems to worry about!) After the first event, I make manual backups here of all the articles I contribute. The biggest concern is if he has an unfortunate interaction with a truck. I did raise this issue with him, and he had some initial suggestions, but I haven't followed through. If people start contributing, it'd probably be time to formalize something. Noel From systems.glitch at gmail.com Fri Aug 16 10:37:31 2019 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 11:37:31 -0400 Subject: GW-DEC-1: A New DEC Prototyping Board In-Reply-To: <5D56C95F.6030903@pico-systems.com> References: <5D56C95F.6030903@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: Indeed, when I tried to get quotes for the first XT-IDE run, the best US-based quote I got was around $15/board with a *16 WEEK* lead time. Compare to my usual "does good hard gold" shop in China, PCB Cart, at $8/board (final all-in cost) and 12 day lead time, including the initial tooling fees. PCB Cart is the same shop that the former N8VEM project, s100computers.com, etc. have used for their work, so they've got a long, solid track record with the hobbyist community. I've gotten the distinct impression that US board houses really are only interested in government/military/aerospace work. I've often wondered what it would take to set up a modern "no human interaction" line and if one could be even a little competitive with the Chinese on it. Thanks, Jonathan On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 11:18 AM Jon Elson wrote: > On 08/16/2019 08:59 AM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > > Paul, > > > > I've got a board house I usually use, but if I can find a shop in the USA > > that will do hard gold plating and provide a comparable cost-per-board, > I'd > > certainly switch! > > > > > There are few board houses in the US anymore, and they are > usually doing aerospace or government work, and are quite > expensive. Most of the supposedly US-based outfits now do > almost all their fabrication in China. > > I use E-teknet, based in AZ, but their fabs are in China. > They do VERY good work. In the distant past I did a lot of > boards with US makers, but had a constant problem that they > would charge me for electrical test, and then just cheat and > NOT actually test the boards, just do a visual inspection. > So, I ended up with 4-layer boards with shorts on the inner > layers! And, only found those after stuffing the boards. A > MAJOR pain, and I would blacklist those companies. > Well, E-teknet has never done that to me. (The flying probe > tester leaves TINY dots on the pads, so you can tell whether > a board has been tested or not.) > > Jon > From web at loomcom.com Fri Aug 16 10:40:19 2019 From: web at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 08:40:19 -0700 Subject: Google site ordering (Was: Archiving information) In-Reply-To: <20190816145835.AAE8E18C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190816145835.AAE8E18C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <8736i1w23g.fsf@loomcom.com> Noel Chiappa via cctalk writes: > I assume he knew what he was talking about (via his Web-site engineering > people). I suppose I could research it, but I don't have the time right > at the moment. I'd love to hear if anyone else knows more. It is true. Google now marks any site that is not using HTTPS as "insecure", and uses that as a negative weight in their rankig algorithm. I have mixed feelings about this. I do think that FORCING people to use TLS encryption is a bad thing. On the other hand, we live in strange times -- many ISPs are intercepting HTTP traffic and injecting content into the pages. Using TLS encryption is an effective way to avoid this (for now). I personally enforce TLS on all my sites just for that reason. > Noel -Seth -- Seth Morabito Poulsbo, WA, USA web at loomcom.com From drb at msu.edu Fri Aug 16 10:46:02 2019 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 11:46:02 -0400 Subject: GW-DEC-1: A New DEC Prototyping Board In-Reply-To: (Your message of Fri, 16 Aug 2019 11:37:31 -0400.) References: <5D56C95F.6030903@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <20190816154603.2047F3E3B3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I've gotten the distinct impression that US board houses really are > only interested in government/military/aerospace work. I've often > wondered what it would take to set up a modern "no human interaction" > line and if one could be even a little competitive with the Chinese > on it. Based on a couple of youtube videos I've seen in the last year (sorry, don't have links), I'm not sure it's entirely fair to describe the Chinese board house process as "no human interaction". I mean, sure, web form submission, but they seem to have a lot of "engineers" checking designs, and factory workers, and... De From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Aug 16 12:14:29 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 17:14:29 +0000 Subject: GW-DEC-1: A New DEC Prototyping Board In-Reply-To: <20190816154603.2047F3E3B3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <5D56C95F.6030903@pico-systems.com>, <20190816154603.2047F3E3B3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: I was wondering, does anyone check the thickness of the gold plating anymore. Years ago, working at another large company, we saw quite a bit of cheating on this. Trust but verity. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Dennis Boone via cctalk Sent: Friday, August 16, 2019 8:46 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: GW-DEC-1: A New DEC Prototyping Board > I've gotten the distinct impression that US board houses really are > only interested in government/military/aerospace work. I've often > wondered what it would take to set up a modern "no human interaction" > line and if one could be even a little competitive with the Chinese > on it. Based on a couple of youtube videos I've seen in the last year (sorry, don't have links), I'm not sure it's entirely fair to describe the Chinese board house process as "no human interaction". I mean, sure, web form submission, but they seem to have a lot of "engineers" checking designs, and factory workers, and... De From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 16 13:02:50 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 12:02:50 -0600 Subject: Archiving information, was Re: ADM-3A question In-Reply-To: References: <20190816003813.20BDE18C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <327fe6f7-f0ef-1941-11d6-2beedda5091e@jetnet.ab.ca> On 8/16/2019 1:50 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 15 Aug 2019, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> An additional issue, I think, is that Google is deprecating sites that >> use >> HTTP, versus HTTPS. I can't comment more, lest I start ranting at the >> utter > > Not true, in contrary, Google even crawls through FTP sites :-) > > Christian > Well with me I have been finding with many searches, the modern browsers refuse to display sites for "what they figure is unsafe" yet the porn ads still show. I can find it, but not view it. Ben. From rtomek at ceti.pl Fri Aug 16 13:12:42 2019 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 20:12:42 +0200 Subject: Archiving information, was Re: ADM-3A question In-Reply-To: <20190816062136.2969B18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190816062136.2969B18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20190816181242.GA21101@tau1.ceti.pl> On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 02:21:36AM -0400, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: [...] > Yeah, I added "CHWiki" to the text on the Main Page to make it a > little easier Because of curiosity, I tried. On gog: === chwiki - because gog discovers I type from Poland and "chwiki" looks like Polish word "chwili" (a genetivus of "chwila" which means "moment", or "a second", like "just a second"), so it gave me page full of stuff like "this moment is best" or "no better moment than her touch" (which even for native speaker sounds a bit too contorted, but gog just indexes whatever garbage local folk produce) === computer history wiki - fifth result on first page === gunkies - first link on first page On double duck: all the same, like above Please note, for me gunkies.org and http://gunkies.org/wiki/Main_Page are equals, so I assume finding gunkies.org counts. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From systems.glitch at gmail.com Fri Aug 16 13:13:46 2019 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 14:13:46 -0400 Subject: GW-DEC-1: A New DEC Prototyping Board In-Reply-To: References: <5D56C95F.6030903@pico-systems.com> <20190816154603.2047F3E3B3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: Dwight, I spot check boards. I lack sufficiently sensitive instruments to measure actual thickness (even on a surface plate, it's the same for ENIG as hard gold with an 0.0001" indicator) but ENIG won't stand up to a few swipes with an ink eraser, whereas hard gold will stand up to it no problem. The main issue I've seen, in buying other people's products and projects, is board houses passing off ENIG as hard gold (and charging for it!) or claiming they're using "extra heavy ENIG" -- which of course isn't a thing, because ENIG is an ion swap! Thanks, Jonathan On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 1:14 PM dwight via cctalk wrote: > I was wondering, does anyone check the thickness of the gold plating > anymore. Years ago, working at another large company, we saw quite a bit of > cheating on this. > Trust but verity. > Dwight > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Dennis Boone > via cctalk > Sent: Friday, August 16, 2019 8:46 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: GW-DEC-1: A New DEC Prototyping Board > > > I've gotten the distinct impression that US board houses really are > > only interested in government/military/aerospace work. I've often > > wondered what it would take to set up a modern "no human interaction" > > line and if one could be even a little competitive with the Chinese > > on it. > > Based on a couple of youtube videos I've seen in the last year (sorry, > don't have links), I'm not sure it's entirely fair to describe the > Chinese board house process as "no human interaction". I mean, sure, > web form submission, but they seem to have a lot of "engineers" checking > designs, and factory workers, and... > > De > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Aug 16 13:26:43 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 18:26:43 +0000 Subject: Archiving information, was Re: ADM-3A question In-Reply-To: <874l2hw2ht.fsf@loomcom.com> References: <20190816062136.2969B18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4062D37C-42C7-45B6-A24F-D43A310E29B7@comcast.net>, <874l2hw2ht.fsf@loomcom.com> Message-ID: One of the problems with archiving is what to do with items that are not popular. Some things might be more valued ten or twenty years in the future but not now. Is the fact that the item has relatively low interest now a possible reason to not archive it in a searchable form for future reference? What about things that are scattered on other personal sites currently that may be gone next week? So much information is already lost. Who determines what should be saved? What say you come across a rare document but the copy was poorly done at a lower than desired resolution. Do you refuse to post it because it doesn't meet your standards or do you post it with a note that it is the best to date? Judging such things can be arbitrary and be the reason for lost information. At least when you publish a book, there is a chance that some copy may be saved. Now with information sitting on someones disk drives, it could be deletes with one mistake. This is a really complicated issue. I'm getting older and know I'm on the tail end of my life. Still, I have no way to begin to pass on what I have. I doubt my heirs would care much unless it had significant monetary value. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Seth J. Morabito via cctalk Sent: Friday, August 16, 2019 8:31 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Archiving information, was Re: ADM-3A question Paul Koning via cctalk writes: > Anything worth having around deserves backup. Which makes me wonder > -- how is Wikipedia backed up? I guess it has a fork, which isn't > quite the same thing. I know Bitsavers is replicated in a number of > places. And one argument in favor of GIT is that every workspace is a > full backup of the original, history and all. > > One should worry for smaller scale efforts, though. This is a problem I think about a lot. In the early 2000s I worked on the LOCKSS program at Stanford University. LOCKSS stands for "Lots Of Copies Keep Stuff Safe", and is a distributed network of servers that replicate backup copies of electronic academic journals. It stemmed from a research project that looked at how to design an attack resistent peer-to-peer digital archival network. Each node in the network keeps a copy of the original journal content, does a cryptographic hash of each resource (HTML page, image, PDF, etc.), and participates in a steady stream of polls with all the other nodes where they vote on the hashes. If a minority of nodes loses a poll, their content is assumed to be damaged, missing, or bad, and they replicate the content from the winners of the poll. It's designed as a "Dark" archive, meaning the data is there, but nobody tries to access it unless the original web content disappears. Then, the servers act as transparent web proxies, so when you hit the original URL or URI, they serve up the content that's now missing from the real public Internet. It's a neat idea. It's also open source, and unencumbered with patents. I've always thought a similar model could be used to archive and replicate just about anything, but it's just one of those things that nobody's ever gotten around to doing. > paul -Seth -- Seth Morabito Poulsbo, WA, USA web at loomcom.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 16 13:26:44 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 12:26:44 -0600 Subject: GW-DEC-1: A New DEC Prototyping Board In-Reply-To: References: <5D56C95F.6030903@pico-systems.com> <20190816154603.2047F3E3B3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On 8/16/2019 12:13 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > Dwight, > > I spot check boards. I lack sufficiently sensitive instruments to measure > actual thickness (even on a surface plate, it's the same for ENIG as hard > gold with an 0.0001" indicator) but ENIG won't stand up to a few swipes > with an ink eraser, whereas hard gold will stand up to it no problem. The > main issue I've seen, in buying other people's products and projects, is > board houses passing off ENIG as hard gold (and charging for it!) or > claiming they're using "extra heavy ENIG" -- which of course isn't a thing, > because ENIG is an ion swap! > > Thanks, > Jonathan Is gold plating the best thing? I thought that gold plating only works best when matching other gold connections. Ben. From systems.glitch at gmail.com Fri Aug 16 13:43:34 2019 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 14:43:34 -0400 Subject: GW-DEC-1: A New DEC Prototyping Board In-Reply-To: References: <5D56C95F.6030903@pico-systems.com> <20190816154603.2047F3E3B3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: I'm sure DEC wouldn't have bothered with hard gold plating if their connectors were metallurgically incompatible :P The few busted DEC connectors I've replaced did indeed have selective gold plating on the contact surfaces. Most quality edge connector slots are similarly constructed. Thanks, Jonathan On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 2:27 PM ben via cctalk wrote: > On 8/16/2019 12:13 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > > Dwight, > > > > I spot check boards. I lack sufficiently sensitive instruments to measure > > actual thickness (even on a surface plate, it's the same for ENIG as hard > > gold with an 0.0001" indicator) but ENIG won't stand up to a few swipes > > with an ink eraser, whereas hard gold will stand up to it no problem. The > > main issue I've seen, in buying other people's products and projects, is > > board houses passing off ENIG as hard gold (and charging for it!) or > > claiming they're using "extra heavy ENIG" -- which of course isn't a > thing, > > because ENIG is an ion swap! > > > > Thanks, > > Jonathan > > Is gold plating the best thing? I thought that gold plating only works > best when matching other gold connections. > Ben. > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Aug 16 13:53:05 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 14:53:05 -0400 Subject: GW-DEC-1: A New DEC Prototyping Board In-Reply-To: References: <5D56C95F.6030903@pico-systems.com> <20190816154603.2047F3E3B3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <01738D69-9387-433D-AF92-F05A62259669@comcast.net> > On Aug 16, 2019, at 2:43 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > > I'm sure DEC wouldn't have bothered with hard gold plating if their > connectors were metallurgically incompatible :P The few busted DEC > connectors I've replaced did indeed have selective gold plating on the > contact surfaces. Most quality edge connector slots are similarly > constructed. It's been a while and I never looked in depth, but it most definitely is not true that gold is only compatible with gold. From what I remember, the detailed analysis involves an "electrochemical series", which has metals like sodium at one end, copper closer to the middle, and gold at or near the other end. Metals are compatible if their potential value differs by less than a limit. The limit depends on the environment; in an office you can have a larger limit than on a ship where you have salt spray, or a tire factory with lots of SO2 in the air. There are also some twists; I think stainless steel is compatible with many things thanks to the alloy ("stainless") properties. In fact, I think the subject came up in connection with failure analysis of coin cell battery holders. The battery cases are stainless steel; the question is what contacts are acceptable. Gold is; there may be others but some things that are used in the market are not good choices. paul > On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 2:27 PM ben via cctalk > wrote: > >> On 8/16/2019 12:13 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: >>> Dwight, >>> >>> I spot check boards. I lack sufficiently sensitive instruments to measure >>> actual thickness (even on a surface plate, it's the same for ENIG as hard >>> gold with an 0.0001" indicator) but ENIG won't stand up to a few swipes >>> with an ink eraser, whereas hard gold will stand up to it no problem. The >>> main issue I've seen, in buying other people's products and projects, is >>> board houses passing off ENIG as hard gold (and charging for it!) or >>> claiming they're using "extra heavy ENIG" -- which of course isn't a >> thing, >>> because ENIG is an ion swap! >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Jonathan >> >> Is gold plating the best thing? I thought that gold plating only works >> best when matching other gold connections. >> Ben. >> >> From systems.glitch at gmail.com Fri Aug 16 13:56:47 2019 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 14:56:47 -0400 Subject: GW-DEC-1: A New DEC Prototyping Board In-Reply-To: <01738D69-9387-433D-AF92-F05A62259669@comcast.net> References: <5D56C95F.6030903@pico-systems.com> <20190816154603.2047F3E3B3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <01738D69-9387-433D-AF92-F05A62259669@comcast.net> Message-ID: You can look it up in an electronegativity chart for a quick "will these ruin each other" check. I think a lot of this comes from the SIMM era in PCs, where folks were told to only use gold-flash SIMMs in gold sockets, and only tin plated SIMMs in tin plated sockets. Thanks, Jonathan On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 2:53 PM Paul Koning wrote: > > > > On Aug 16, 2019, at 2:43 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > I'm sure DEC wouldn't have bothered with hard gold plating if their > > connectors were metallurgically incompatible :P The few busted DEC > > connectors I've replaced did indeed have selective gold plating on the > > contact surfaces. Most quality edge connector slots are similarly > > constructed. > > It's been a while and I never looked in depth, but it most definitely is > not true that gold is only compatible with gold. > > From what I remember, the detailed analysis involves an "electrochemical > series", which has metals like sodium at one end, copper closer to the > middle, and gold at or near the other end. Metals are compatible if their > potential value differs by less than a limit. The limit depends on the > environment; in an office you can have a larger limit than on a ship where > you have salt spray, or a tire factory with lots of SO2 in the air. > > There are also some twists; I think stainless steel is compatible with > many things thanks to the alloy ("stainless") properties. In fact, I think > the subject came up in connection with failure analysis of coin cell > battery holders. The battery cases are stainless steel; the question is > what contacts are acceptable. Gold is; there may be others but some things > that are used in the market are not good choices. > > paul > > > On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 2:27 PM ben via cctalk > > wrote: > > > >> On 8/16/2019 12:13 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > >>> Dwight, > >>> > >>> I spot check boards. I lack sufficiently sensitive instruments to > measure > >>> actual thickness (even on a surface plate, it's the same for ENIG as > hard > >>> gold with an 0.0001" indicator) but ENIG won't stand up to a few swipes > >>> with an ink eraser, whereas hard gold will stand up to it no problem. > The > >>> main issue I've seen, in buying other people's products and projects, > is > >>> board houses passing off ENIG as hard gold (and charging for it!) or > >>> claiming they're using "extra heavy ENIG" -- which of course isn't a > >> thing, > >>> because ENIG is an ion swap! > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> Jonathan > >> > >> Is gold plating the best thing? I thought that gold plating only works > >> best when matching other gold connections. > >> Ben. > >> > >> > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 16 15:43:12 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 14:43:12 -0600 Subject: GW-DEC-1: A New DEC Prototyping Board In-Reply-To: <01738D69-9387-433D-AF92-F05A62259669@comcast.net> References: <5D56C95F.6030903@pico-systems.com> <20190816154603.2047F3E3B3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <01738D69-9387-433D-AF92-F05A62259669@comcast.net> Message-ID: <41f39aaf-a0ef-f5ca-8794-3ccc50d65113@jetnet.ab.ca> On 8/16/2019 12:53 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > From what I remember, the detailed analysis involves an "electrochemical series", which has metals like sodium at one end, copper closer to the middle, and gold at or near the other end. Metals are compatible if their potential value differs by less than a limit. The limit depends on the environment; in an office you can have a larger limit than on a ship where you have salt spray, or a tire factory with lots of SO2 in the air. > > There are also some twists; I think stainless steel is compatible with many things thanks to the alloy ("stainless") properties. In fact, I think the subject came up in connection with failure analysis of coin cell battery holders. The battery cases are stainless steel; the question is what contacts are acceptable. Gold is; there may be others but some things that are used in the market are not good choices. > > paul > That reminds me, Tubes and More ( https://www.tubesandmore.com ) sell a contact cleaner used for vacuum tubes. That may be useful for cleaning cards and card edge sockets. Deoxit is the product and comes in assorted types depending what you are cleaning. Ben. From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Fri Aug 16 15:43:47 2019 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 15:43:47 -0500 Subject: ADM-3A question Message-ID: <573CED24D69A45F5BF550DA2860BCBF5@CharlesHPLaptop> Today the replacement 'LS193 arrived, so I put it in the previously-installed socket and the screen is now 24x80 again :) I'd been testing with the dip switch in half-duplex mode... For final test, I put it in FDX, connected to my HP protocol analyzer, and what do you know, no serial data out. The 1488 RS-232 driver was blown (TTL-level data going to it, but the RS-232 line was stuck in spacing). Not an uncommon failure with static discharge and incorrect cable hookups... I destructively removed it, again installed a good dip socket, now waiting for THAT chip (a variety of other line drivers in my drawer, but not 1488/1489). Meanwhile I noted another slide switch S8 ("GT/LK") near the DB-25 connectors. It is not referenced anywhere in the documentation, nor in the schematics! The wiper of the switch also goes through a hex inverter to a 74LS32 chip, ALSO not in the schematic or circuit description. This signal originates at the flip-flop that generates KBLOCK\. Finally, input pin 10 of the removed 1488 is supposed to be tied to pin 9, with the RTS output on pin 8. But pin 10 goes In fact, the PCB artwork at the end of the tech manual shows no connections except +5 and ground to that chip (position C2 I think), and it doesn't show the slide switch either. This is likely something for the auto-tester that LSI used to check these boards on the production line, although I don't know if the extra circuitry was added or removed during production. Anyone have internal documents on this? I'm just curious since it only appears to affect the keyboard lock functions which I'm not using anyway. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From bhilpert at shaw.ca Fri Aug 16 16:46:19 2019 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 14:46:19 -0700 Subject: GW-DEC-1: A New DEC Prototyping Board In-Reply-To: References: <5D56C95F.6030903@pico-systems.com> <20190816154603.2047F3E3B3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <01738D69-9387-433D-AF92-F05A62259669@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4FDA69FF-3A90-4EFD-BC5D-16D5F180CBB3@shaw.ca> On 2019-Aug-16, at 11:56 AM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 2:53 PM Paul Koning wrote: >> >>> On Aug 16, 2019, at 2:43 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk < >>> >>> I'm sure DEC wouldn't have bothered with hard gold plating if their >>> connectors were metallurgically incompatible :P The few busted DEC >>> connectors I've replaced did indeed have selective gold plating on the >>> contact surfaces. Most quality edge connector slots are similarly >>> constructed. >> >> It's been a while and I never looked in depth, but it most definitely is >> not true that gold is only compatible with gold. >> >> From what I remember, the detailed analysis involves an "electrochemical >> series", which has metals like sodium at one end, copper closer to the >> middle, and gold at or near the other end. Metals are compatible if their >> potential value differs by less than a limit. The limit depends on the >> environment; in an office you can have a larger limit than on a ship where >> you have salt spray, or a tire factory with lots of SO2 in the air. >> >> There are also some twists; I think stainless steel is compatible with >> many things thanks to the alloy ("stainless") properties. In fact, I think >> the subject came up in connection with failure analysis of coin cell >> battery holders. The battery cases are stainless steel; the question is >> what contacts are acceptable. Gold is; there may be others but some things >> that are used in the market are not good choices. > You can look it up in an electronegativity chart for a quick "will these > ruin each other" check. > > I think a lot of this comes from the SIMM era in PCs, where folks were told > to only use gold-flash SIMMs in gold sockets, and only tin plated SIMMs in > tin plated sockets. I've seen pieces of HP high-end lab equipment from thru the 60s that used tin plating on the PCB edge fingers, mating into gold-plated edge connectors on the backplane. Never quiet understood it, they (HP) were doing gold-plated edge fingers on other equipment at the same time. From systems.glitch at gmail.com Fri Aug 16 16:55:39 2019 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 17:55:39 -0400 Subject: GW-DEC-1: A New DEC Prototyping Board In-Reply-To: <4FDA69FF-3A90-4EFD-BC5D-16D5F180CBB3@shaw.ca> References: <5D56C95F.6030903@pico-systems.com> <20190816154603.2047F3E3B3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <01738D69-9387-433D-AF92-F05A62259669@comcast.net> <4FDA69FF-3A90-4EFD-BC5D-16D5F180CBB3@shaw.ca> Message-ID: That *is* surprising, HP sometimes gold plated the whole thing! In any case, I will continue to run edge connectors with the superior albeit more expensive selective hard gold process :P Thanks, Jonathan On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 5:46 PM Brent Hilpert via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 2019-Aug-16, at 11:56 AM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 2:53 PM Paul Koning > wrote: > >> > >>> On Aug 16, 2019, at 2:43 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk < > >>> > >>> I'm sure DEC wouldn't have bothered with hard gold plating if their > >>> connectors were metallurgically incompatible :P The few busted DEC > >>> connectors I've replaced did indeed have selective gold plating on the > >>> contact surfaces. Most quality edge connector slots are similarly > >>> constructed. > >> > >> It's been a while and I never looked in depth, but it most definitely is > >> not true that gold is only compatible with gold. > >> > >> From what I remember, the detailed analysis involves an "electrochemical > >> series", which has metals like sodium at one end, copper closer to the > >> middle, and gold at or near the other end. Metals are compatible if > their > >> potential value differs by less than a limit. The limit depends on the > >> environment; in an office you can have a larger limit than on a ship > where > >> you have salt spray, or a tire factory with lots of SO2 in the air. > >> > >> There are also some twists; I think stainless steel is compatible with > >> many things thanks to the alloy ("stainless") properties. In fact, I > think > >> the subject came up in connection with failure analysis of coin cell > >> battery holders. The battery cases are stainless steel; the question is > >> what contacts are acceptable. Gold is; there may be others but some > things > >> that are used in the market are not good choices. > > > You can look it up in an electronegativity chart for a quick "will these > > ruin each other" check. > > > > I think a lot of this comes from the SIMM era in PCs, where folks were > told > > to only use gold-flash SIMMs in gold sockets, and only tin plated SIMMs > in > > tin plated sockets. > > > I've seen pieces of HP high-end lab equipment from thru the 60s that used > tin plating on the PCB edge fingers, mating into gold-plated edge > connectors on the backplane. > Never quiet understood it, they (HP) were doing gold-plated edge fingers > on other equipment at the same time. > > > From allisonportable at gmail.com Fri Aug 16 17:57:37 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 18:57:37 -0400 Subject: GW-DEC-1: A New DEC Prototyping Board In-Reply-To: <4FDA69FF-3A90-4EFD-BC5D-16D5F180CBB3@shaw.ca> References: <5D56C95F.6030903@pico-systems.com> <20190816154603.2047F3E3B3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <01738D69-9387-433D-AF92-F05A62259669@comcast.net> <4FDA69FF-3A90-4EFD-BC5D-16D5F180CBB3@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <4d28dc1a-e27d-31f3-f88e-b8737e075b4e@gmail.com> On 8/16/19 5:46 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > On 2019-Aug-16, at 11:56 AM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: >> On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 2:53 PM Paul Koning wrote: >>> >>>> On Aug 16, 2019, at 2:43 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk < >>>> >>>> I'm sure DEC wouldn't have bothered with hard gold plating if their >>>> connectors were metallurgically incompatible :P The few busted DEC >>>> connectors I've replaced did indeed have selective gold plating on the >>>> contact surfaces. Most quality edge connector slots are similarly >>>> constructed. >>> >>> It's been a while and I never looked in depth, but it most definitely is >>> not true that gold is only compatible with gold. >>> >>> From what I remember, the detailed analysis involves an "electrochemical >>> series", which has metals like sodium at one end, copper closer to the >>> middle, and gold at or near the other end. Metals are compatible if their >>> potential value differs by less than a limit. The limit depends on the >>> environment; in an office you can have a larger limit than on a ship where >>> you have salt spray, or a tire factory with lots of SO2 in the air. >>> >>> There are also some twists; I think stainless steel is compatible with >>> many things thanks to the alloy ("stainless") properties. In fact, I think >>> the subject came up in connection with failure analysis of coin cell >>> battery holders. The battery cases are stainless steel; the question is >>> what contacts are acceptable. Gold is; there may be others but some things >>> that are used in the market are not good choices. > >> You can look it up in an electronegativity chart for a quick "will these >> ruin each other" check. >> >> I think a lot of this comes from the SIMM era in PCs, where folks were told >> to only use gold-flash SIMMs in gold sockets, and only tin plated SIMMs in >> tin plated sockets. > > > I've seen pieces of HP high-end lab equipment from thru the 60s that used tin plating on the PCB edge fingers, mating into gold-plated edge connectors on the backplane. > Never quiet understood it, they (HP) were doing gold-plated edge fingers on other equipment at the same time. > > Back in the dark ages when MITS Altair (and dirt) was new.... Initial board were tin and not the fancy stuff either, sockets were commonly gold. then came the occasional gold. What was nasty was the gold over copper not gold/nickel/copper... Can you say Electromigration and green plague? It was the cause of the shake well disorder as in before powering up, pull the board and wipe the edge connector, re-insert boards and it would be hopefully stable, maybe. I had to retire that machine after about 2 years it was so flakey due to that. By then the suspect boards were retired and never used again. Looking back and having it to look at part of the issue was crappy gold plating (looked good) and also some of the sockets did not have a hard wipe or high spring tension both of which were likely causative. I've not see that anywhere else. Dec connector blocks are hard wipe and very good at what they do, make a connection. Even tin plate seems to be no trouble at all. Allison From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Aug 16 17:59:49 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 18:59:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: GW-DEC-1: A New DEC Prototyping Board Message-ID: <20190816225949.6C7D618C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Brent Hilpert > I've seen pieces of HP high-end lab equipment from thru the 60s that > used tin plating on the PCB edge fingers, mating into gold-plated edge > connectors on the backplane. ISTR that DEC used bronze contacts in their backplanes, but basically all the boards had gold-plated fingers. (I think I've seen a few power supply boards that had tinned fingers.) I think the bronze was preferred since the contacts bend back and forth as cards are inserted/removed, and bronze is more durable; and being part tin, has the same corrosion characteristics are the tin. Noel From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Fri Aug 16 18:09:21 2019 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 18:09:21 -0500 Subject: ADM-3A question Message-ID: <97BC5DCDE2A24D9BB8D19A9558711391@CharlesHPLaptop> I found a newer version of the tech manual on bitsavers, which does mention the mysterious S8 switch (as well as the S6 switch that fills the screen with 0's upon clearing). "The gated EXTENSION port mode, when selected by switch S8, allows selective transmission of data from the keyboard, in Half-Duplex mode, or the communication line through the EXTENSION port. GT: Enables gated EXTENSION port mode which allows ON/OFF control of the EXTENSION port. LK: Disables gated EXTENSION port mode which allows locking and unlocking off [sic] keyboard." The wiring is on the newer schematic, too. Another of life's little mysteries, solved :) --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Aug 16 18:24:34 2019 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 16:24:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Google site ordering (Was: Archiving information) In-Reply-To: <8736i1w23g.fsf@loomcom.com> from "Seth J. Morabito via cctalk" at "Aug 16, 19 08:40:19 am" Message-ID: <201908162324.x7GNOY4C23068754@floodgap.com> > > I assume he knew what he was talking about (via his Web-site engineering > > people). I suppose I could research it, but I don't have the time right > > at the moment. I'd love to hear if anyone else knows more. > > It is true. Google now marks any site that is not using HTTPS as > "insecure", and uses that as a negative weight in their rankig > algorithm. > > I have mixed feelings about this. I do think that FORCING people to use > TLS encryption is a bad thing. On the other hand, we live in strange > times -- many ISPs are intercepting HTTP traffic and injecting content > into the pages. Using TLS encryption is an effective way to avoid this > (for now). I personally enforce TLS on all my sites just for that > reason. I offer both on Floodgap pages. I don't see why it should be an either-or proposition. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The future's got all the time in the world! -- Dinosaur Comics #1932 ------- From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Aug 16 18:47:23 2019 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 16:47:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Archiving information, was Re: ADM-3A question In-Reply-To: from Steven M Jones via cctalk at "Aug 16, 19 03:14:52 am" Message-ID: <201908162347.x7GNlN8623592988@floodgap.com> > Then imagine that a law is passed in a far away land, and the site owner > decides it's is too risky to bother with, and they then take the entire > site down - wiki and fora - with no warning and no access to the material... Gosh, Steven, I can't imagine for the *life of me* what site you're referring to here. I mean, it's not like Some Guy Immediately pulls it all down on a whim, is it? ;) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- God may be subtle, but He isn't plain mean. -- Albert Einstein ------------- From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Fri Aug 16 18:18:17 2019 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2019 00:18:17 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: ADM-3A question In-Reply-To: <573CED24D69A45F5BF550DA2860BCBF5@CharlesHPLaptop> Message-ID: <01RABSHXJRXI8WVZ9P@beyondthepale.ie> Charles wrote: > Today the replacement 'LS193 arrived, so I put it in the > previously-installed socket and the screen is now 24x80 again :) > I'd been testing with the dip switch in half-duplex mode... For final test, > I put it in FDX, connected to my HP protocol analyzer, and what do you know, > no serial data out. > The 1488 RS-232 driver was blown (TTL-level data going to it, but the RS-232 > line was stuck in spacing). Not an uncommon failure with static discharge > and incorrect cable hookups... > I destructively removed it, again installed a good dip socket, now waiting > for THAT chip (a variety of other line drivers in my drawer, but not > 1488/1489). I'm glad to hear you got to the end of the chain of faults on your ADM-3A. I am still struggling with my ADM-5. The smoke I mentioned last time came from a tantalum capacitor decoupling a -20V supply. After removing it, I got back to the monitor showing a cursor. I tried sending and receiving data and found neither operation worked. While I was looking into this problem(s), without any provocation the monitor went off, with the picture collapsing to a vertical line and fading out with no nasty noises or any other signs of distress. From previous experience, I checked the HDRIVE signal to the monitor and found it was absent. (The usual beep at power on did not happen after this either). Luckily, the ciruitry in this area seems to be identical to the ADM-3A so I can use the ADM-3A maintenance manual to troubleshoot it, however the component references are all different so it can still get very tedious. (I also found some frequencies listed on the timing diagram don't seem to be correct which doesn't help matters either). I eventually found a 74LS161 which is used to divide the master clock signal was not behaving correctly. Not having a replacement, I "borrowed" one that seemed to be working correctly from my other ADM-5 which has even more issues. This made the waveforms around the dot counter and character position counters look much more reasonable, however, I still don't have the HDRIVE signal restored yet so there must be another problem lurking and when I get to the bottom of that one, I will probably still have the data transmission and reception issues... While working on these latest issues, I remembered that the faults that led me to replacing the two 74LS125 chips on a previous occasion were certain received characters being incorrectly displayed due to stuck bits. I also noticed that I had to replace a 7805 voltage regulator during that troubleshooting session. I'm making lots of notes this time around so I won't have these recall difficulties next time around. This ADM-5 was stored in an attic space with poor temperature control for many years but since then and before the most recently failures, it had been in a less variable environment. The 74LS161 that failed was clearly working initially when the terminal came out of storage this time. It didn't seem to be a lead bonding issue either - the MSB of the count output seemed to be following the clock input. Every time I try to use my ADM-5 terminals, I seem to run into these kind of successive failures. I have some BBC Micro equipment from the same era which also contains a fair amount of TTL but it doesn't give anything like the same degree of trouble, although I did have to replace a single 74LS163 counter/latch in my oldest BBC micro. It was wired to be a latch only but it decided it's true destiny was to be a counter. This failure could have been a lead bonding issue. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Fri Aug 16 19:46:18 2019 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 19:46:18 -0500 Subject: ADM-3A question In-Reply-To: <01RABSHXJRXI8WVZ9P@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: >I am still struggling with my ADM-5. The smoke I mentioned last time came from a tantalum capacitor decoupling a -20V supply. After removing it, I got back to the monitor showing a cursor. Interesting you should mention that... early in the debugging process (always start with the power supplies!), I had discovered the +12/-12 power supplies weren't right. (+12 was very low). The problem was a fractured solder joint on the PCB's male Molex connector J3. Specifically, pin 4 (red/white) - the center tap of the transformer. This is the worst pin to be open since the load on the +12 is much greater than the -12, so the voltage across the unregulated supply soared on the minus side to over 35 volts (should be + and - 20v, as you mentioned). The electrolytic is rated at 35 volts, and of even more concern, so is the 2.2 uf tantalum bypass. Those match-head tantalum caps are known for short-circuiting even when operated below their maximum rated voltage (as any Tek owner can attest). Fortunately I found the problem before the tantalum exploded and took out the bridge rectifier with it. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Fri Aug 16 21:18:22 2019 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 22:18:22 -0400 Subject: RXV21 questions Message-ID: I have 2 RXV21 RX02 controller boards.? They were bought to be used with the RX02 emulator, the one on github by AK6DN. Finally, I finished one of the emulator boards and tried it out on a PDP-11/03 and found that one of the RXV21? boards worked and the other didn't.? I assumed the one board was bad. Yesterday I tried the RX02 emulator in a BA23 with a 11/53 cpu (I also tried a 11/23+) cpu.? What I found is that the one that worked in the 11/03 didn't work, while the other board kinda worked.? I could do a DIRECTORY and DUMP from RT11, but I couldn't boot the RX02 in the microPDP-11. Today I ran into Chuck Dickman's web site that talked about the Etch versions of the board and which would work in a microPDP-11. He showed how to convert an Etch 'D' board to work in a microPDP-11. I have Etch 'C' - this is the one that works in the 11/03, and an Etch 'D'.? My 'D' board isn't exactly like the 'D' board he shows. What are the changes to the 'D' board that he outlines?? What is exactly the reason why the 'C' works in the 11/03 and why an 'F' or modified 'D' is needed for the microPDP-11? Doug From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Aug 16 21:21:44 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 21:21:44 -0500 Subject: GW-DEC-1: A New DEC Prototyping Board In-Reply-To: <20190816225949.6C7D618C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190816225949.6C7D618C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5D5764B8.6020105@pico-systems.com> On 08/16/2019 05:59 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Brent Hilpert > > > I've seen pieces of HP high-end lab equipment from thru the 60s that > > used tin plating on the PCB edge fingers, mating into gold-plated edge > > connectors on the backplane. > > ISTR that DEC used bronze contacts in their backplanes, but basically all the > boards had gold-plated fingers. (I think I've seen a few power supply boards > that had tinned fingers.) > > I think the bronze was preferred since the contacts bend back and forth as > cards are inserted/removed, and bronze is more durable; and being part tin, > has the same corrosion characteristics are the tin. > > Noel > The contacts were mostly phosphor bronze, but they had a little spot of selectively plated gold where the PC board finger actually wiped. I think they used basically the same technology from the PDP-8 era to the VAX 7xx series. Jon Jon From systems.glitch at gmail.com Fri Aug 16 21:33:35 2019 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 22:33:35 -0400 Subject: GW-DEC-1: A New DEC Prototyping Board In-Reply-To: <5D5764B8.6020105@pico-systems.com> References: <20190816225949.6C7D618C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5D5764B8.6020105@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: As Jon said, from my analysis of busted-apart DEC connectors, there's a selectively plated "pad" where the contact surface actually is. I wouldn't be surprised if the bulk of the contact fingers is *phosphor bronze* which is often used in springs. Perhaps we can get Connor to do a metallurgical analysis once he gets the EDX attachment for his SEM going! Thanks, Jonathan On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 10:21 PM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 08/16/2019 05:59 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > > From: Brent Hilpert > > > > > I've seen pieces of HP high-end lab equipment from thru the 60s > that > > > used tin plating on the PCB edge fingers, mating into gold-plated > edge > > > connectors on the backplane. > > > > ISTR that DEC used bronze contacts in their backplanes, but basically > all the > > boards had gold-plated fingers. (I think I've seen a few power supply > boards > > that had tinned fingers.) > > > > I think the bronze was preferred since the contacts bend back and forth > as > > cards are inserted/removed, and bronze is more durable; and being part > tin, > > has the same corrosion characteristics are the tin. > > > > Noel > > > The contacts were mostly phosphor bronze, but they had a > little spot of selectively plated gold where the PC board > finger actually wiped. I think they used basically the same > technology from the PDP-8 era to the VAX 7xx series. > > Jon > > Jon > From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Fri Aug 16 23:12:32 2019 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 23:12:32 -0500 Subject: Pinout for current loop interface Message-ID: <64BC712CBA7247C1A9096F91A701CD45@CharlesHPLaptop> Is there any standard pinout for 20 ma current loop using a DB-25 connector, analogous to the well-documents RS-232 serial interface? My PDP-8/A drives an ASR-33, and having just restored an ADM-3A I want to be able to unplug the TTY and plug in the ADM. I somewhat arbitrarily put the transmit data + on pin 2 and receive + on pin 3, and picked two uncommitted RS-232 pins for the - legs of both loops. The ADM-3A receives on pins 23 & 25, and transmits on pins 24 & 17. Polarity doesn't matter since both pairs use bridge rectifiers. If this is some kind of de facto standard, I'll change the bulkhead connector on the PDP-8 and the TTY to match. Otherwise I'll just make yet another unique cable to hook up the ADM-3A to the PDP-8 as it's wired. Or would you recommend I use a different connector entirely? The reason I used the DB-25 to begin with is that I had a DEC rack-mount plate that already takes one. Maybe a Jones 4-pin would make more sense. thanks for any tips. -Charles --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Aug 16 23:56:01 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2019 00:56:01 -0400 Subject: Pinout for current loop interface In-Reply-To: <64BC712CBA7247C1A9096F91A701CD45@CharlesHPLaptop> References: <64BC712CBA7247C1A9096F91A701CD45@CharlesHPLaptop> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 12:12 AM Charles via cctalk wrote: > Is there any standard pinout for 20 ma current loop using a DB-25 connector, > analogous to the well-documents RS-232 serial interface? >From checking a couple of devices, I don't think so. Here's how the original IBM Async adapter for the 5150 did it... Pin 18 +receive current loop data Pin 25 -receive current loop return Pin 11 -transmit current loop data Pin 9 +transmit current loop return One BlackBox adapter I found used different pins. > The ADM-3A receives on pins 23 & 25, and transmits on pins 24 & 17. I'm used to using 15 and 17 for sync serial clock. They are typically NC for async. 23-25 have alternate uses that are, again, typically NC. (I've never seen a device that used pin 25 for 'test'). There are Sun workstations that have two serial ports over one DB25 which might be the only use of the "B" pins I've encountered. -ethan From imp at bsdimp.com Sat Aug 17 00:05:05 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 23:05:05 -0600 Subject: Pinout for current loop interface In-Reply-To: References: <64BC712CBA7247C1A9096F91A701CD45@CharlesHPLaptop> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 10:56 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 12:12 AM Charles via cctalk > wrote: > > Is there any standard pinout for 20 ma current loop using a DB-25 > connector, > > analogous to the well-documents RS-232 serial interface? > > From checking a couple of devices, I don't think so. Here's how the > original IBM Async adapter for the 5150 did it... > > Pin 18 +receive current loop data > Pin 25 -receive current loop return > Pin 11 -transmit current loop data > Pin 9 +transmit current loop return > > One BlackBox adapter I found used different pins. > > > The ADM-3A receives on pins 23 & 25, and transmits on pins 24 & 17. > > I'm used to using 15 and 17 for sync serial clock. They are typically > NC for async. 23-25 have alternate uses that are, again, typically > NC. (I've never seen a device that used pin 25 for 'test'). There are > Sun workstations that have two serial ports over one DB25 which might > be the only use of the "B" pins I've encountered. > The DEC rainbow has B pins for talking to a modem dialer via a special cable... but it is basically useless for anything other than a few characters. Warner > From tingox at gmail.com Fri Aug 16 14:20:44 2019 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2019 21:20:44 +0200 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IEdyaWQgMTUzNyDigJ1UZW1wZXN04oCdIHNjaGVtYXRpY3M=?= In-Reply-To: References: <74391CDF-65DD-4024-BD6F-C630F8492C65@atarimuseum.com> <025301d5536e$94172370$bc456a50$@com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 1:16 AM Curt Vendel via cctalk wrote: > > The owner tried them... Grid told him the design is owned by the US Govt > and only they have the technicals on it... I was just hoping someone Aha. Perhaps your friend should try a FOIA request then? Not sure that would work. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat Aug 17 05:05:04 2019 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2019 12:05:04 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Scanner: was : Re: VAX DATATRIEVE orange binders (4) In-Reply-To: References: <6AED8E0E-E8AC-43EF-B2F0-D7F1E5CB63AA@platinum.net> <61522c8d-1c29-6f66-7f99-bd59313101d4@telegraphics.com.au> <50045894-a63e-eb87-64c1-7f71a7b1024c@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Aug 2019, Al Kossow wrote: > The scanning info is on the main bitsavers.org page > I'm still using a Panasonic KV-S3065CW > > I checked the backlog of scanned VAX manuals, and it doesn't > look like I have anything more scanned fore DATATRIEVE BTW do you still accept scanned documents currently not found on bitsavers? If yes, how to submit? Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat Aug 17 05:09:24 2019 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2019 12:09:24 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Archiving information, was Re: ADM-3A question In-Reply-To: <327fe6f7-f0ef-1941-11d6-2beedda5091e@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20190816003813.20BDE18C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <327fe6f7-f0ef-1941-11d6-2beedda5091e@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Aug 2019, ben wrote: > Well with me I have been finding with many searches, the modern browsers > refuse to display sites for "what they figure is unsafe" yet the porn ads > still show. I can find it, but not view it. I use current versions of Firefox and Chrome/Chromium, and I don't have any problems viewing sites. And for your porn problem, what about using uBlock and NoScript? Christian From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Aug 17 09:44:58 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2019 07:44:58 -0700 Subject: Scanner: was : Re: VAX DATATRIEVE orange binders (4) In-Reply-To: References: <6AED8E0E-E8AC-43EF-B2F0-D7F1E5CB63AA@platinum.net> <61522c8d-1c29-6f66-7f99-bd59313101d4@telegraphics.com.au> <50045894-a63e-eb87-64c1-7f71a7b1024c@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <38223190-3374-0ce1-0664-be68407b8c1d@bitsavers.org> On 8/17/19 3:05 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > BTW do you still accept scanned documents currently not found on bitsavers? If yes, how to submit? I do, just email me with a url to download from. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Aug 17 10:38:33 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2019 11:38:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Pinout for current loop interface Message-ID: <20190817153833.9D92C18C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Charles Morris > Is there any standard pinout for 20 ma current loop using a DB-25 > connector, analogous to the well-documents RS-232 serial interface? > ... > Or would you recommend I use a different connector entirely? .. Maybe a > Jones 4-pin would make more sense. I've never heard of people using DB25 for 20mA, at least historically, contemporaneous with its widespread actual use. E.g. DEC universally used 'flat' 8-pin Mate-n-Lok connectors for 20mA serial connections. Although I have the part numbers for both the male and female 8-pin shells, they are no longer in production, and are getting hard to find. Nothing precludes us from establishing a spec for 20mA via a DB25, of course - especially if a set of pins can be found whih will not cause damage if such a connector is plugged into an EIA connector by accident. As 'idiot proof' engineering, I'd be inclined to use some other connector (no suggestion from me as to what), but I can understand that people might prefer to use DB25 (which everyone has, and are easy to find). Noel From sales at elecplus.com Sat Aug 17 10:51:07 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2019 10:51:07 -0500 Subject: Pinout for current loop interface In-Reply-To: <20190817153833.9D92C18C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190817153833.9D92C18C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <002a01d55513$9650e080$c2f2a180$@com> Ask Continental Computers, they should still have some. Talk to Lidan. 310-416-1200. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel Chiappa via cctalk Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 10:39 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: Pinout for current loop interface > From: Charles Morris > Is there any standard pinout for 20 ma current loop using a DB-25 > connector, analogous to the well-documents RS-232 serial interface? > ... > Or would you recommend I use a different connector entirely? .. Maybe a > Jones 4-pin would make more sense. I've never heard of people using DB25 for 20mA, at least historically, contemporaneous with its widespread actual use. E.g. DEC universally used 'flat' 8-pin Mate-n-Lok connectors for 20mA serial connections. Although I have the part numbers for both the male and female 8-pin shells, they are no longer in production, and are getting hard to find. Nothing precludes us from establishing a spec for 20mA via a DB25, of course - especially if a set of pins can be found whih will not cause damage if such a connector is plugged into an EIA connector by accident. As 'idiot proof' engineering, I'd be inclined to use some other connector (no suggestion from me as to what), but I can understand that people might prefer to use DB25 (which everyone has, and are easy to find). Noel --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sat Aug 17 10:55:56 2019 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2019 16:55:56 +0100 Subject: Pinout for current loop interface In-Reply-To: <20190817153833.9D92C18C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190817153833.9D92C18C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 4:38 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > > From: Charles Morris > > > Is there any standard pinout for 20 ma current loop using a DB-25 > > connector, analogous to the well-documents RS-232 serial interface? > > ... > > Or would you recommend I use a different connector entirely? .. Maybe a > > Jones 4-pin would make more sense. > > I've never heard of people using DB25 for 20mA, at least historically, > contemporaneous with its widespread actual use. E.g. DEC universally used > 'flat' 8-pin Mate-n-Lok connectors for 20mA serial connections. Looking around here I think it is safe to say that there is no standard. I've got : 3 different wirings on DB25 connectors (the IBM PC serial port which has already been mentioned, the original Apple ][ bitbanger serial card and a Miniterm 1203 portable terminal which can be strapped internally to put a current loop interface on pins 13-16 of the DB25). In all cases there's a subset of the RS232 interface on the expected pins Those flat 8-pin mate-n-lock connectors that DEC used An 8 pin mini-Jones connector (Intellec 8) DE9 (on a 'Ferret' peripheral tester thing) And a different wiring on a cable that came with my Data Dynamics 390 (Teletype Model 33 mechanical parts with Data Dynamics electronics) 5 pin 240 degree DIN socket (on an acoustic modem) GPO Plug 420/Jack 84 (or Jack 95). This is the old 4 contact cylindrical plug/socket used on UK telephone systems in the 1960s/1970s and seems to be used for current loop by UK universities at the time. Screw terminal barrier strips. -tony From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sat Aug 17 11:14:09 2019 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2019 11:14:09 -0500 Subject: Pinout for current loop interface Message-ID: >I've never heard of people using DB25 for 20mA, at least historically, contemporaneous with its widespread actual use. E.g. DEC universally used 'flat' 8-pin Mate-n-Lok connectors for 20mA serial connections. Thanks for the comments... I asked mostly because the ADM-3A has both RS-232 and current loop interfaces built-in (on the same female DB-25), selected by one of the DIP switches. I just hate having to make a custom cable for every terminal and computer I own or work with ;) -Charles --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Aug 17 12:12:27 2019 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2019 13:12:27 -0400 Subject: Pinout for current loop interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Thanks for the comments... I asked mostly because the ADM-3A has both > RS-232 > and current loop interfaces built-in (on the same female DB-25), selected > by > one of the > DIP switches. > > I just hate having to make a custom cable for every terminal and computer I > own or work > I have some specific pinouts for current loop on my site... for dec pdp 11/05, swtpc 6800, altair 680, and rs232 to current loop conversion. Vintagecomputer.net Bill > From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Sat Aug 17 13:37:23 2019 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2019 11:37:23 -0700 Subject: Pinout for current loop interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55637461-D1D3-4967-B848-0E94F3DFEF2B@eschatologist.net> On Aug 17, 2019, at 9:14 AM, Charles via cctalk wrote: > I just hate having to make a custom cable for every terminal and computer I > own or work with ;) Ah, but isn?t doing what so many before you have had to part of the charm? :) -- Chris From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sat Aug 17 13:50:19 2019 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2019 13:50:19 -0500 Subject: Pinout for current loop interface In-Reply-To: <55637461-D1D3-4967-B848-0E94F3DFEF2B@eschatologist.net> References: <55637461-D1D3-4967-B848-0E94F3DFEF2B@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <8841728BE97740ED99C895619F00DB14@CharlesHPLaptop> In my prior life as an EE, I had to do it many times (early 80's)... I may be nostalgic, but not THAT nostalgic :) -----Original Message----- From: Chris Hanson Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 1:37 PM To: Charles ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Pinout for current loop interface On Aug 17, 2019, at 9:14 AM, Charles via cctalk wrote: > I just hate having to make a custom cable for every terminal and computer > I > own or work with ;) Ah, but isn?t doing what so many before you have had to part of the charm? :) -- Chris --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From nw.johnson at ieee.org Sat Aug 17 14:00:32 2019 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2019 15:00:32 -0400 Subject: Pinout for current loop interface In-Reply-To: <8841728BE97740ED99C895619F00DB14@CharlesHPLaptop> References: <55637461-D1D3-4967-B848-0E94F3DFEF2B@eschatologist.net> <8841728BE97740ED99C895619F00DB14@CharlesHPLaptop> Message-ID: <51c448c2-f4a0-8d8c-5efa-d47d7bbc8cee@ieee.org> You haven't lived until you have played with live long-line teletype current loop circuits. In my first job as an FE on a Univac that was a store and forward message switcher, we had racks of mercury relays feeding the teletype lines, which ran at 130VDC to give the current needed to get to the next hop! Working in that rack could result in some very sudden surpsies! cheers, Nigel On 17/08/2019 14:50, Charles via cctalk wrote: > In my prior life as an EE, I had to do it many times (early 80's)... I > may be nostalgic, but not THAT nostalgic :) > > > -----Original Message----- From: Chris Hanson > Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 1:37 PM > To: Charles ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Pinout for current loop interface > > On Aug 17, 2019, at 9:14 AM, Charles via cctalk > wrote: > >> I just hate having to make a custom cable for every terminal and >> computer I >> own or work with ;) > > Ah, but isn?t doing what so many before you have had to part of the > charm? :) > > ?-- Chris > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sat Aug 17 14:37:31 2019 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2019 20:37:31 +0100 Subject: Archiving information, was Re: ADM-3A question In-Reply-To: <20190816153301.0082F18C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190816153301.0082F18C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 16/08/2019 16:33, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > There is an automatic backup system which sends copies to a machine at his > house, so the particular scenario above (hosting sevice goes away with no > warning) is not an issue. (Yes, a Chicxulub event in Scandanavia would defeat > that, but we'd all probably have larger problems to worry about!) After the > first event, I make manual backups here of all the articles I contribute. > > The biggest concern is if he has an unfortunate interaction with a truck. I > did raise this issue with him, and he had some initial suggestions, but I > haven't followed through. If people start contributing, it'd probably be time > to formalize something. I think having it mirrored would be a smart move. bitsavers is mirrored, manx nearly vanished but is now online (although I've just noticed that it's hosted on codeplex ...). It is possible to Special:Export each page via a script but it would be much easier to have the existing backup mechanism make copies available to multiple people. (It's easy to install mediawiki, so testing the backup occasionally should be straightforward). Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Aug 17 15:26:45 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2019 16:26:45 -0400 Subject: Pinout for current loop interface In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Aug 17, 2019 at 12:14 PM Charles via cctalk wrote: > >I've never heard of people using DB25 for 20mA, at least historically, > contemporaneous with its widespread actual use. E.g. DEC universally used > 'flat' 8-pin Mate-n-Lok connectors for 20mA serial connections. > > Thanks for the comments... I asked mostly because the ADM-3A has both RS-232 > and current loop interfaces built-in Given the problem you are trying to solve, if I were in your shoes, since I have a lot of DEC gear, I would standardize on 8-pin Mate-n-Lok connectors, but I have numerous devices already so equipped (ASR33, VT52, VT220, VT100 w/20mA option, PDP-8 (various), DZ11 breakout panel...) Since I was just holding an original IBM PC serial interface (as discussed above), I should probably bite the bullet and make a DB25-8-pin-Mate-n-Lok cable for it, just in case (I happen to have a couple of options for using ISA cards on Amigas, so it's even multi-platform). I happen to have a stash of the shells. What I should do is buy a bag of the pins and get a reel of the 4-wire (R/G/B/W) cable that was commonly used in the DEC world, then I'd be all set. DB25s are easier to come by, but as has been mentioned, there's not one way to wire them up and having a large stack of magic pin-swabber cables is kind of a pain. -ethan From Tim at Rikers.org Sat Aug 17 17:15:13 2019 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2019 16:15:13 -0600 Subject: HP-2250 data acquisition for HP-1000 in Salt Lake City In-Reply-To: References: <18a0d67a-7335-dac8-0683-6da0df538e2f@Rikers.org> Message-ID: I've not heard from anyone interested in this system. It's in a rolling, counter high, rack case. Salt Lake City area. Anyone interested can pick it up. If I don't hear from anyone, it's headed to the dump. On 9/4/2018 10:44 PM, Curious Marc wrote: > It's an HP-IB controlled data acquisition box for large real time industrial test or automation control installations. Very specialized. Think measuring or outputting 100's of analog signals in real time. Most likely meant to be connected to a HP 1000 series computer running the RTE real time operating system. HP's core test and measurement business, and the reason they went into computers at first. This real time measurement and control capabilities could not be matched by other minis or later PCs running Windows for a very long time, and the antiquated series 1000 lasted a lot longer than you'd have thought, mostly in industrial environments. > Marc > >> On Sep 4, 2018, at 7:54 PM, Tim Riker via cctalk wrote: >> >> Someone on this list, I don't remember who, asked me if I was interested >> in this, and then dropped it off. I've not gotten around to doing >> anything with it, and I could use the space back. If anyone is >> interested, holler. >> >> HP 2250 Measurement & Control Processor >> >> Pictures are the same ones that came with it. Photographer unknown. >> >> https://photos.app.goo.gl/XjEj8E8vQ8KX9xcg8 >> >> If your interested in picking it up, email me directly, please. If you >> have more information to share, respond to the list. :) >> >> If anyone knows more about what this is, I'd be interested to hear. >> >> I got these links from Mike on the SIMH list: >> >> http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=986 >> >> http://www.hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=5124 >> >> http://www.hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=4579 >> >> Mine is the "2250M" version. Apparently this heavy beast is "mobile" >> because it has wheels on it. :) From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Aug 17 18:22:54 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2019 18:22:54 -0500 Subject: Grid 1537 =?UTF-8?B?4oCdVGVtcGVzdOKAnSBzY2hlbWF0aWNz?= In-Reply-To: References: <74391CDF-65DD-4024-BD6F-C630F8492C65@atarimuseum.com> <025301d5536e$94172370$bc456a50$@com> Message-ID: <5D588C4E.7050004@pico-systems.com> On 08/16/2019 02:20 PM, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Aug 16, 2019 at 1:16 AM Curt Vendel via cctalk > wrote: >> The owner tried them... Grid told him the design is owned by the US Govt >> and only they have the technicals on it... I was just hoping someone > Aha. Perhaps your friend should try a FOIA request then? Not sure > that would work. > > It probably won't. TEMPEST technology is at some level of secret, and even though particular machines are not classified, the technical means used and the testing protocols to get them to meet TEMPEST requirements ARE secret, still, as far as I know. Jon From barythrin at gmail.com Sat Aug 17 18:50:54 2019 From: barythrin at gmail.com (John Herron) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2019 18:50:54 -0500 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IEdyaWQgMTUzNyDigJ1UZW1wZXN04oCdIHNjaGVtYXRpY3M=?= In-Reply-To: <94ea8132-d9eb-4c10-7a82-4b88fb505086@atarimuseum.com> References: <74391CDF-65DD-4024-BD6F-C630F8492C65@atarimuseum.com> <94ea8132-d9eb-4c10-7a82-4b88fb505086@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: Zomg it's been blocked! Jk. Not sure if you forgot url or tried an attachment but no attachments go through on this mailing list. Be cool to see pics for sure :-) I'm almost surprised that they think it's a secret but I guess that could allow data interception and that defeats the tempest purpose. Otherwise I think the shielding specs are published. I don't know details but it seems like there is a screw every x inches requirement on all the cases I've seen. On Fri, Aug 16, 2019, 12:05 AM Curt Vendel via cctalk wrote: > Sure: > > > > On 8/15/2019 12:22 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > u got any pics of this thing? > From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sat Aug 17 22:44:01 2019 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2019 22:44:01 -0500 Subject: ADM-3A question Message-ID: <7276CD37F95F401F88AC46A88B9D4FEF@CharlesHPLaptop> Tried the ADM-3A out today on my PDP-8/A via the 20 ma current loop interface - just unplugged the ASR-33 and plugged in the glass TTY :) Worked great (the current loop probably had never been used, so no one had a chance to blow it up), but I got tired of holding down the Shift key since OS/8 doesn't understand lower case letters. So I decided to set its switch to upper case only... terminal kept putting out lower case. Sure enough, that switch contact was stuck closed. It'd probably never been moved since the terminal was new! Now waiting on a 6-position dip switch from Mouser. And some 8-position Mate-n-Lok connectors. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From chip at aresti.com Sat Aug 17 23:41:15 2019 From: chip at aresti.com (Chip Davis) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2019 00:41:15 -0400 Subject: I need a keypunch (briefly) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <28e03875-d0aa-cc51-4f5d-9a94c217864c@aresti.com> Thanks, one and all, for the pointers to working keypunches. Ultimately, the closest one was in Chattanooga and I now have everything I need to fabricate the award. I also used the kloth.com app because I realized that if I punched the cards without the printed interpretation, it wouldn't be obvious if I had made a mistake. So I "punched" them on the app and printed them out to use for verification. I am very grateful for all of you folks who keep such technological relics in working condition, and for all of the museums that make them available to the public. I plan to visit the CMA the next time I'm in the Atlanta area. -Chip- On 8/8/2019 1:56 PM, cctalk via cctalk wrote: > The Computer Museum of America in Roswell GA (400 miles) has 2 working 029s. Don?t know the condition of the ribbons. Contact Lonnie Simms via info at computermuseumofamerica.org. Tell him his CA IBM benefactor sent you. I hope you have black cards. If not, let me know. > > Otherwise you could try http://www.kloth.net/services/cardpunch.php and print the JPEG on heavy stock. > > Donald > > Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 18:10:32 -0400 > From: Chip Davis > > I was referred to this group by dave.g4ugm at gmail.com who thought you > might be able to help me. > > I need to punch a half-dozen datacards for an award for a retired > IBMer. Anyone know where I can find a working 026/029/129 within 300 > miles of Raleigh, NC? > > Many thanks for any pointers. > > Chip Davis > chip at aresti.com > +1.919.271.2582 From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Sun Aug 18 00:55:38 2019 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2019 00:55:38 -0500 (CDT) Subject: I need a keypunch (briefly) In-Reply-To: <28e03875-d0aa-cc51-4f5d-9a94c217864c@aresti.com> References: <28e03875-d0aa-cc51-4f5d-9a94c217864c@aresti.com> Message-ID: <72533955.591667.1566107738297@email.ionos.com> > On August 17, 2019 at 11:41 PM Chip Davis via cctalk wrote: > > > Thanks, one and all, for the pointers to working keypunches. > Ultimately, the closest one was in Chattanooga and I now have > everything I need to fabricate the award. > > > -Chip- > Hi Chip, I'm wondering if you could tell us where in Chattanooga you found one? I'm originally from that area and go there a couple times a year to see family. If there is a museum or other public place with old computers I would like to visit sometime. Thanks, Will "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." --? Antoine de Saint-Exupery "The names of global variables should start with? ? // "? --?https://isocpp.org From chip at aresti.com Sun Aug 18 12:03:25 2019 From: chip at aresti.com (Chip Davis) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2019 13:03:25 -0400 Subject: I need a keypunch (briefly) In-Reply-To: <72533955.591667.1566107738297@email.ionos.com> References: <28e03875-d0aa-cc51-4f5d-9a94c217864c@aresti.com> <72533955.591667.1566107738297@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: The 029 I used is in the private collection of a mainframe service company, Will. They are not open to the public and I know of no computer museum in the area. However, if you ever get up to the Baltimore area, there is a very extensive computer museum https://museum.syssrc.com that is curated by another member of this list. It even includes a working Linotype typesetter; the dripping hot lead did a number on the lobby carpet. (OK, it did a couple of letters on it too.) ;-) -Chip- On 8/18/2019 1:55 AM, wrcooke at wrcooke.net wrote: > > >> On August 17, 2019 at 11:41 PM Chip Davis via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> Thanks, one and all, for the pointers to working keypunches. >> Ultimately, the closest one was in Chattanooga and I now have >> everything I need to fabricate the award. >> >> >> -Chip- >> > > Hi Chip, > I'm wondering if you could tell us where in Chattanooga you found one? I'm originally from that area and go there a couple times a year to see family. If there is a museum or other public place with old computers I would like to visit sometime. > > Thanks, > Will From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Sun Aug 18 12:15:58 2019 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2019 12:15:58 -0500 (CDT) Subject: I need a keypunch (briefly) In-Reply-To: References: <28e03875-d0aa-cc51-4f5d-9a94c217864c@aresti.com> <72533955.591667.1566107738297@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <189232097.597215.1566148558826@email.ionos.com> > On August 18, 2019 at 12:03 PM Chip Davis via cctalk wrote: > > > The 029 I used is in the private collection of a mainframe service > company, Will. They are not open to the public and I know of no > computer museum in the area. > I was afraid of that. Not surprising; Chattanooga isn't known as a great tech hub. That's one reason I'm no longer there. > However, if you ever get up to the Baltimore area, there is a very > extensive computer museum https://museum.syssrc.com that is curated by > another member of this list. It even includes a working Linotype > typesetter; the dripping hot lead did a number on the lobby carpet. > (OK, it did a couple of letters on it too.) ;-) > > -Chip- > Thanks for the info. I would love to go see that lead number -- and letters -- on the carpet :-) Thanks, Will From fritzm at fritzm.org Sun Aug 18 15:17:31 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2019 13:17:31 -0700 Subject: multi-section cap for Tek 4006 Message-ID: <692243CA-D7EE-4DF9-98B8-02CCD2CE85CC@fritzm.org> I'm working my way through a Tektronix 4006 terminal purchased of eBay right now. First stage is the low voltage power supplies, and I noticed right away that one of the multi-stage electrolytic filter caps there was running quite hot (this was with downstream electronics isolated, and a 40 ohm dummy load on the +20V supply per recommendation in the service manual.) The cap in question is a multi-section Mallory can, 150 at 400 / 150 at 250, used to filter the +185 and +320 unregulated supplies. It is C395 A/B on the schematics, Tek part 290-0549-00, Mallory part 68D20193. This terminal is so beautifully engineered inside that it would be a real shame to replace this with some sort of ugly bodge. Any part-sourcing gurus out there able to steer me in a good direction here? I have found the part listed in the various online NSN aerospace cross-referencing sites, but haven't bothered to ask for a quote from any -- I'm guessing cynically that "RFQ" + "Aero..." = 5 zillion dollars for one piece... :-) Has anybody here used one of these sites successfully? cheers, --FritzM. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Aug 18 15:51:26 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2019 13:51:26 -0700 Subject: multi-section cap for Tek 4006 In-Reply-To: <692243CA-D7EE-4DF9-98B8-02CCD2CE85CC@fritzm.org> References: <692243CA-D7EE-4DF9-98B8-02CCD2CE85CC@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On 8/18/19 1:17 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: > Any part-sourcing gurus out there able to steer me in a good direction here? Rebuilding cans is a common practice now, since they are LONG out of production. It is just tedious to do. There are a few people who make them, for example https://hayseedhamfest.com/products/ From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Aug 18 15:52:17 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2019 13:52:17 -0700 Subject: multi-section cap for Tek 4006 In-Reply-To: References: <692243CA-D7EE-4DF9-98B8-02CCD2CE85CC@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On 8/18/19 1:51 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Rebuilding cans is a common practice now, since they are LONG out of production. https://www.nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/~reese/electrolytics/ From fritzm at fritzm.org Sun Aug 18 16:16:19 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2019 14:16:19 -0700 Subject: multi-section cap for Tek 4006 In-Reply-To: References: <692243CA-D7EE-4DF9-98B8-02CCD2CE85CC@fritzm.org> Message-ID: > On Aug 18, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> Rebuilding cans is a common practice now, since they are LONG out of production. > https://www.nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/~reese/electrolytics/ Thanks, Al. This is definitely plan B, unless somebody here comes through with a miracle "oh I have those...", or "there's a pile over at X...", or "they're also used in Y so look for one of those." (Don't know until you ask, especially around this crowd :-)) cheers, --FritzM. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 18 17:53:26 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2019 15:53:26 -0700 Subject: multi-section cap for Tek 4006 In-Reply-To: <692243CA-D7EE-4DF9-98B8-02CCD2CE85CC@fritzm.org> References: <692243CA-D7EE-4DF9-98B8-02CCD2CE85CC@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <2587155f-d6d3-8edd-26c6-2ce8e45b0b2e@sydex.com> There are the old radio guys who seem to hoard NOS caps. You may want to check these guys to see if they have something that might fit: https://www.vivatubes.com/ https://www.justradios.com/ Personally, rather than depend on the condition of a very old electrolytic, I'd probably rebuild "in the can" with modern stuff. Unless you're taking about paper-in-oil caps, I wouldn't be very sanguine about really old stock--they have a tendency to dry out even in storage. --Chuck From drb at msu.edu Sun Aug 18 18:38:13 2019 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2019 19:38:13 -0400 Subject: S/23 machine update card Message-ID: <20190818233823.896E93EDDA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Folks, I've determined that the piece of my S/23 that's causing the power supply to blow its 12V fuse is the machine update card. The manual says this provides additional R/W storage for microprogram updates. That sounds like something that wouldn't be necessary for normal operation. Questions: 1. Can anyone confirm that I'm not losing anything by just pulling this? 2. Anyone have a cross ref for the IBM house numbers on these chips? 3. Anyone have a spare card they'd part with? 4. As long as I'm dreaming, anyone have a set of BRADS floppies or images? Machine update card photo: https://sysovl.info/pages/galleries/ibm/s23guts/s23guts13.jpg Interestingly, the underlying PCB for this seems exactly the same as the one for the word processing feature card. Many thanks, De From jonelson126 at gmail.com Sun Aug 18 20:11:56 2019 From: jonelson126 at gmail.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2019 20:11:56 -0500 Subject: S/23 machine update card In-Reply-To: <20190818233823.896E93EDDA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20190818233823.896E93EDDA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <5D59F75C.7020402@email.wustl.edu> On 08/18/2019 06:38 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > Folks, > > I've determined that the piece of my S/23 that's causing the power > supply to blow its 12V fuse is the machine update card. The manual says > this provides additional R/W storage for microprogram updates. That > sounds like something that wouldn't be necessary for normal operation. > > Not knowing anything about this system, but you might check the card for a bad Tantalum capacitor. Jon From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Aug 19 11:15:24 2019 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2019 09:15:24 -0700 Subject: S/23 machine update card In-Reply-To: <5D59F75C.7020402@email.wustl.edu> References: <20190818233823.896E93EDDA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <5D59F75C.7020402@email.wustl.edu> Message-ID: The uCode in the S/23 is 8085 assembly code that is contained within the ROMs. The ROMs have the ability to be patched and the card you?re referencing is used to hold those updates. So without that card you?re not able to apply any ROM updates (which are loaded each boot). It?s been long enough that I don?t recall what (if any) updates there are and when (and from what) they?re loaded. The system architecture allows for *much* more than the 64KB normally accessible by the 8085 CPU. The memory is bank switched. There is a fixed ROM and fix RAM portion of the address space and a bank switched ROM and RAM portion of the address space. 16KB of fixed (for ROM/RAM) sticks in my head for some reason. I don?t recall the granularity of the bank switched areas. There was a lot of confusion when the S/23 came out about what the ROM/RAM specifications (192KB of ROM, 128KB of RAM) because an 8085 could only address 64KB. ;-) The patching was accomplished by having each major or critical function in the ROM be dispatched through a call table (that is placed in RAM at boot and can be ?patched? to point to a different function). It was *more* than just the ROM address as it also contained the bank # of the ROM as well since (with few exceptions) all calls were ?long calls?. TTFN - Guy > On Aug 18, 2019, at 6:11 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > > On 08/18/2019 06:38 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: >> Folks, >> >> I've determined that the piece of my S/23 that's causing the power >> supply to blow its 12V fuse is the machine update card. The manual says >> this provides additional R/W storage for microprogram updates. That >> sounds like something that wouldn't be necessary for normal operation. >> >> > Not knowing anything about this system, but you might check the card for a bad Tantalum capacitor. > > Jon From drb at msu.edu Mon Aug 19 11:35:49 2019 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2019 12:35:49 -0400 Subject: S/23 machine update card In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 19 Aug 2019 09:15:24 -0700.) References: <20190818233823.896E93EDDA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <5D59F75C.7020402@email.wustl.edu> Message-ID: <20190819163549.AE2463F075@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > The uCode in the S/23 is 8085 assembly code that is contained within > the ROMs. The ROMs have the ability to be patched and the card > you?re referencing is used to hold those updates. So without that > card you?re not able to apply any ROM updates (which are loaded each > boot). Ah, ok, that makes sense. It's only 16k of RAM. > It?s been long enough that I don?t recall what (if any) updates there > are and when (and from what) they?re loaded. When the machine powers up, it pre-enters a command (PROC START? PROC INIT? Brane faid.) which could presumably load firmware from diskette. There aren't a lot of other options. They could be loaded from fixed disk if you had one, but they'd have to get there somehow. > The system architecture allows for *much* more than the 64KB normally > accessible by the 8085 CPU. The memory is bank switched. There is a > fixed ROM and fix RAM portion of the address space and a bank > switched ROM and RAM portion of the address space. 16KB of fixed > (for ROM/RAM) sticks in my head for some reason. I don?t recall the > granularity of the bank switched areas. Right, the memory map for all of that is in the service manuals. The pageable sections each have 16 possible pages, and footnotes indicate that two ROM and one RAM (think I have that right way round) pages are not used. A total of 32k of address space for each of ROM and RAM, so it would make sense that the pages are 16k, and that the fixed portions are 16k also. What's not there is how the RAM on the card is paged in. The base RAM card and the feature RAM card are mentioned, but I don't believe the details of their mapping is described. > The patching was accomplished by having each major or critical > function in the ROM be dispatched through a call table (that is > placed in RAM at boot and can be ?patched? to point to a different > function). It was *more* than just the ROM address as it also > contained the bank # of the ROM as well since (with few exceptions) > all calls were ?long calls?. Thanks for the enlightenment! Were you involved in the development of these machines? Presumably there's an I/O to be done to the mapping hardware as part of a "long call"? Look at me calling it RAM instead of R/W storage, haha. :) De From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Aug 19 11:57:41 2019 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2019 09:57:41 -0700 Subject: S/23 machine update card In-Reply-To: <20190819163549.AE2463F075@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20190818233823.896E93EDDA@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <5D59F75C.7020402@email.wustl.edu> <20190819163549.AE2463F075@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: > On Aug 19, 2019, at 9:35 AM, Dennis Boone wrote: > >> The uCode in the S/23 is 8085 assembly code that is contained within >> the ROMs. The ROMs have the ability to be patched and the card >> you?re referencing is used to hold those updates. So without that >> card you?re not able to apply any ROM updates (which are loaded each >> boot). > > Ah, ok, that makes sense. It's only 16k of RAM. > >> It?s been long enough that I don?t recall what (if any) updates there >> are and when (and from what) they?re loaded. > > When the machine powers up, it pre-enters a command (PROC START? PROC > INIT? Brane faid.) which could presumably load firmware from diskette. > There aren't a lot of other options. They could be loaded from fixed > disk if you had one, but they'd have to get there somehow. Yea, that?s part of setting up the fixed disk. I was working on other projects (mainly the PC) at that point. > >> The system architecture allows for *much* more than the 64KB normally >> accessible by the 8085 CPU. The memory is bank switched. There is a >> fixed ROM and fix RAM portion of the address space and a bank >> switched ROM and RAM portion of the address space. 16KB of fixed >> (for ROM/RAM) sticks in my head for some reason. I don?t recall the >> granularity of the bank switched areas. > > Right, the memory map for all of that is in the service manuals. The > pageable sections each have 16 possible pages, and footnotes indicate > that two ROM and one RAM (think I have that right way round) pages are > not used. A total of 32k of address space for each of ROM and RAM, so > it would make sense that the pages are 16k, and that the fixed portions > are 16k also. > > What's not there is how the RAM on the card is paged in. The base RAM > card and the feature RAM card are mentioned, but I don't believe the > details of their mapping is described. I never actually used a version with actual ROMs (except for the one I have sitting here in my shop). All development was done with special RAM cards in place of the ROM. Made development *much* easier. However, development was not without its pain. When I started, a full build of the base software (e.g. full ROM image) took a week (yep, 7 days). So we would carry around ?patches?. Both ?blessed? patches and our own individual test patches. Getting those into the ?official? build cleanly usually resulted in 2 or 3 attempts because how you needed to develop a patch was different than actually putting in the change in built source. So when a new build came out, tests would be run and additional patches applied. It was a real pain. We were jumping up and down for joy when the build was moved to the mainframe and we would get builds back in ~24 hours! > >> The patching was accomplished by having each major or critical >> function in the ROM be dispatched through a call table (that is >> placed in RAM at boot and can be ?patched? to point to a different >> function). It was *more* than just the ROM address as it also >> contained the bank # of the ROM as well since (with few exceptions) >> all calls were ?long calls?. > > Thanks for the enlightenment! Were you involved in the development of > these machines? Yes, it was my first job out of college. I wrote about 20% of the ROM code: floating point code?which because it was a ?business? machine was all done in BCD formatting code (anything that is done via print and print using). I don?t recall if I did anything on the ?input? side. unwinding expressions when you do a ?list?. The source is always thrown away and just the bytecode is retained so the source needs to be ?recreated?. a bunch of other stuff that I can?t recall now. > > Presumably there's an I/O to be done to the mapping hardware as part of > a "long call?? That is correct. TTFN - Guy From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Aug 19 14:05:46 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2019 15:05:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Current MANX location Message-ID: <20190819190546.6E96F18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Wasn't MANX supposed to be coming back up after moving? Did that never happen? Noel From t.gardner at computer.org Mon Aug 19 14:11:38 2019 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2019 12:11:38 -0700 Subject: Tape History - Freeman Reports Message-ID: <008701d556c1$ee0612f0$ca1238d0$@computer.org> Hi I'm sure some of us all remember Freeman Reports as the chronical of the tape industry well into this century. Ray Freeman and his partner and successor Bob Abraham published these reports from at least 1983 until 2007 but with Bob's death in 2007 the reports and backup files apparently wound up in a dumpster. But Ray, Bob and Jim Porter did exchange copies of their reports so thanks to Jim the Computer History Museum has almost all of the Freeman Reports in their permanent collection. There appear to be a few copies missing from the collection. A complete list of what the museum has and what maybe missing is posted at http://mrxhist.org/tom94022/FreemanRpt.pdf. In summary what may be missing are: Computer tape outlook - . half-inch products: 1994, 1985, 1990 & 1992 Computer tape outlook - . cassette/cartridge: 1984 & 1985 Computer tape outlook - all tape: 1997-2000 (as the market consolidated towards LTO so did the reports J Optical data storage outlook: 1985, 1988 & 1998 Mass storage/Library storage outlook: 1992, 1993, 1997 & 2000 So before they all get trashed please look and see if you happen to have any of the possibly missing editions in your garage, attic or any other repository. Contact me off line if you can help. Tom From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon Aug 19 14:18:27 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2019 12:18:27 -0700 Subject: Tape History - Freeman Reports In-Reply-To: <008701d556c1$ee0612f0$ca1238d0$@computer.org> References: <008701d556c1$ee0612f0$ca1238d0$@computer.org> Message-ID: > On Aug 19, 2019, at 12:11 PM, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > > I'm sure some of us all remember Freeman Reports as the chronical of the > tape industry well into this century. Ray Freeman and his partner and > successor Bob Abraham published these reports from at least 1983 until 2007 > but with Bob's death in 2007 the reports and backup files apparently wound > up in a dumpster. But Ray, Bob and Jim Porter did exchange copies of their > reports so thanks to Jim the Computer History Museum has almost all of the > Freeman Reports in their permanent collection. I?ve been working with tapes since around ?88, and this is the first I?ve heard of these. Are any of these available online? Zane From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Aug 19 17:06:17 2019 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2019 15:06:17 -0700 Subject: Current MANX location In-Reply-To: <20190819190546.6E96F18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190819190546.6E96F18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: This? http://manx-docs.org/ On Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 12:05 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Wasn't MANX supposed to be coming back up after moving? Did that never > happen? > > Noel > From macro at linux-mips.org Mon Aug 19 18:55:10 2019 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 00:55:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: RS2030 MIPS workstation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Jul 2019, Patrick Mackinlay via cctalk wrote: > For the MIPS Rx3230 systems, which use an M48T02, the mac address should > be in the first 6 bytes of NVRAM. You can read/write the NVRAM through > the boot monitor using the ?g? (get) and ?p? (put) commands. You also > need to provide the ?-b? argument to specify byte width, and the > relevant address. The NVRAM is mapped at 0x1d000000-0x1d001fff in the > physical address space, but must also set the high bit to access it > through kseg0. Each 32-bit word in that range corresponds to a single > byte in the NVRAM, so the resulting commands will be something like: > > > * g -b 0x9d000003 (read first byte of NVRAM) > * g -b 0x9d000007 (read second byte of NVRAM) > * ... > > Or conversely: > > > * p -b 0x9d000003 0xff (write 0xff to first byte of NVRAM) You probably want to use KSEG1 instead to access an MMIO resource, such as an NVRAM chip, especially with actual hardware and given that the chip is not linearly mapped in the address space in particular, or otherwise rubbish will be transferred through unused byte lanes as cache lines are read or written. With MAME it will of course depend on how accurate it is in reproducing the cache, although as a good measure I think correct access addresses ought to be always used. So: * g -b 0xbd000003 (read first byte of NVRAM) * g -b 0xbd000007 (read second byte of NVRAM) and: * p -b 0xbd000003 0xff (write 0xff to first byte of NVRAM) respectively. Maciej From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Aug 20 09:39:34 2019 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 07:39:34 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/34 systems available in CA Message-ID: <04f5e1c6-e0fa-7fe2-9fd2-5df3db704b8c@jwsss.com> I have three PDP 11/34's available in the LA area for sale.? i have two full systems, plus? a system with 2 RL02s, and a TU10 tape drive. I'd like to sell all of them.? There is an extra RL02 as well.? All for pickup, or freight drop. please reply off list.?? I have $2000 in the lot. thanks jim From auringer at tds.net Tue Aug 20 11:05:13 2019 From: auringer at tds.net (Jon Auringer) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 12:05:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: eBay: 1982 Prime Computer In-Reply-To: <000401d24048$3b176e60$b1464b20$@classiccmp.org> References: <20161115142606.185A618C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20161115143443.659A8A58586@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <000201d23f55$300e2890$902a79b0$@classiccmp.org> <582B37F3.4030004@cimmeri.com> <000601d23f61$8ecc7fb0$ac657f10$@classiccmp.org> <582B44BF.6010305@cimmeri.com> <000401d24048$3b176e60$b1464b20$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <398417461.8305652.1566317113932.JavaMail.zimbra@tds.net> Jay, ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jay West" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 2:30:11 PM > Subject: RE: eBay: 1982 Prime Computer > > So I took a chance..... I ran across this thread from 2016 about the Prime 2250 you tried to buy, but can't find any mention of the outcome. Did you have any luck with the flaky seller? -Jon From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Aug 20 13:43:35 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 14:43:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Current MANX location Message-ID: <20190820184335.1491118C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Glen Slick > This? Yes; thanks! I don't know it didn't show up in my Web searches - I tried a number of different things, no luck. Also, http://manx.classiccmp.org/ (which is the medium-old URL I had for it) redirects to something that has no working link to Manx; probably ought to fix it to go to the new location. Noel From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Aug 20 13:51:29 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 11:51:29 -0700 Subject: Current MANX location In-Reply-To: <20190820184335.1491118C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190820184335.1491118C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Aug 20, 2019, at 11:43 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Glen Slick > >> This? > > Yes; thanks! > > I don't know it didn't show up in my Web searches - I tried a number of > different things, no luck. > > > Also, http://manx.classiccmp.org/ (which is the medium-old URL I had for it) > redirects to something that has no working link to Manx; probably ought to fix > it to go to the new location. > > Noel Stupid question. What is MANX? I?d thought that it was an alternate source of manuals. To my disappointment, the manuals that turned up when I searched it, apparently don?t exist online anywhere. Zane From sales at elecplus.com Tue Aug 20 16:01:00 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 16:01:00 -0500 Subject: Sun memory 201-5401 has landed Message-ID: <088d01d5579a$5f364570$1da2d050$@com> https://elecshopper.com/Sun-501-5401-256MB-PC100-232-pin-ECC-3-3V-DIMM-p1472 53154 I got a better deal on it, so the price is lower. New ecommerce platform, very fast checkout, under 2 minutes! I still have a VERY long way to go to get everything loaded again. Damn hackers! Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From sales at elecplus.com Tue Aug 20 16:07:42 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 16:07:42 -0500 Subject: Sun memory 201-5401 has landed In-Reply-To: <088d01d5579a$5f364570$1da2d050$@com> References: <088d01d5579a$5f364570$1da2d050$@com> Message-ID: <08b501d5579b$4f228f30$ed67ad90$@com> PN Correction: 501-5401 -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Electronics Plus via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2019 4:01 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Sun memory 201-5401 has landed https://elecshopper.com/Sun-501-5401-256MB-PC100-232-pin-ECC-3-3V-DIMM-p1472 53154 I got a better deal on it, so the price is lower. New ecommerce platform, very fast checkout, under 2 minutes! I still have a VERY long way to go to get everything loaded again. Damn hackers! Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Tue Aug 20 19:16:44 2019 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 19:16:44 -0500 Subject: Current MANX location In-Reply-To: References: <20190820184335.1491118C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <2f7ef1ff-5323-aede-f1a9-fb084f0c2f19@thereinhardts.org> On 8/20/2019 1:51 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> On Aug 20, 2019, at 11:43 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> >>> From: Glen Slick >>> This? >> Yes; thanks! >> >> I don't know it didn't show up in my Web searches - I tried a number of >> different things, no luck. >> >> >> Also, http://manx.classiccmp.org/ (which is the medium-old URL I had for it) >> redirects to something that has no working link to Manx; probably ought to fix >> it to go to the new location. >> >> Noel > Stupid question. What is MANX? I?d thought that it was an alternate source of manuals. To my disappointment, the manuals that turned up when I searched it, apparently don?t exist online anywhere. > > Zane > > > > It's kind of like an internet index.? Most (if not all?) of the entries are pointers to where the document is (or was) located.? I've run across some dead links but most seem to be current.? At least the stuff I've searched for. -- John H. Reinhardt From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Aug 20 22:37:35 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 20:37:35 -0700 Subject: Current MANX location In-Reply-To: <2f7ef1ff-5323-aede-f1a9-fb084f0c2f19@thereinhardts.org> References: <20190820184335.1491118C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <2f7ef1ff-5323-aede-f1a9-fb084f0c2f19@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: <7A1B3B8A-EB45-439B-AFC1-03EB0879313C@avanthar.com> > On Aug 20, 2019, at 5:16 PM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: > > On 8/20/2019 1:51 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >>> On Aug 20, 2019, at 11:43 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >>> >>>> From: Glen Slick >>>> This? >>> Yes; thanks! >>> >>> I don't know it didn't show up in my Web searches - I tried a number of >>> different things, no luck. >>> >>> >>> Also, http://manx.classiccmp.org/ (which is the medium-old URL I had for it) >>> redirects to something that has no working link to Manx; probably ought to fix >>> it to go to the new location. >>> >>> Noel >> Stupid question. What is MANX? I?d thought that it was an alternate source of manuals. To my disappointment, the manuals that turned up when I searched it, apparently don?t exist online anywhere. >> >> Zane >> >> >> >> > It's kind of like an internet index. Most (if not all?) of the entries are pointers to where the document is (or was) located. I've run across some dead links but most seem to be current. At least the stuff I've searched for. > > -- > John H. Reinhardt Leave it to me to search for obscure stuff, like manuals for DEC ALL-IN-1, or DEC Ada. What I found really odd was that it had part numbers and manual names from one version, but when I clicked on the links it said no known version online. Zane From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Aug 20 23:03:56 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 21:03:56 -0700 Subject: When it rains it pours Message-ID: Last year, we finally found a complete set of Sun-1 boot proms. I was going through some old floppies tonight, and I think I've found a slightly later version that I'd dumped in 1987 http://bitsavers.org/pdf/sun/sun1/firmware/cpu/sun1_roms_rD_rE.zip From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Tue Aug 20 23:26:34 2019 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 23:26:34 -0500 Subject: Current MANX location In-Reply-To: <0d996081-0ee4-c12b-2795-c83e0ce1b2d0@thereinhardts.org> References: <20190820184335.1491118C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <2f7ef1ff-5323-aede-f1a9-fb084f0c2f19@thereinhardts.org> <7A1B3B8A-EB45-439B-AFC1-03EB0879313C@avanthar.com> <0d996081-0ee4-c12b-2795-c83e0ce1b2d0@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: <7133b12e-8838-6b8f-4c2d-92fc0813c9e0@thereinhardts.org> On 8/20/2019 11:08 PM, John H. Reinhardt wrote: > On 8/20/2019 10:37 PM, Zane Healy wrote: >>> On Aug 20, 2019, at 5:16 PM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> On 8/20/2019 1:51 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >>>>> On Aug 20, 2019, at 11:43 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> From: Glen Slick >>>>>> This? >>>>> Yes; thanks! >>>>> >>>>> I don't know it didn't show up in my Web searches - I tried a number of >>>>> different things, no luck. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Also,http://manx.classiccmp.org/ (which is the medium-old URL I had for it) >>>>> redirects to something that has no working link to Manx; probably ought to fix >>>>> it to go to the new location. >>>>> >>>>> Noel >>>> Stupid question. What is MANX? I?d thought that it was an alternate source of manuals. To my disappointment, the manuals that turned up when I searched it, apparently don?t exist online anywhere. >>>> >>>> Zane >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> It's kind of like an internet index. Most (if not all?) of the entries are pointers to where the document is (or was) located. I've run across some dead links but most seem to be current. At least the stuff I've searched for. >>> >>> -- >>> John H. Reinhardt >> Leave it to me to search for obscure stuff, like manuals for DEC ALL-IN-1, or DEC Ada. What I found really odd was that it had part numbers and manual names from one version, but when I clicked on the links it said no known version online. >> >> Zane >> >> >> > Anyway... What version of the ADA manuals are you looking for?? VSI has some for an Alpha Version 3.5 that they scraped off the HP site before they disappeared.? I have some older VAX ConDists that might have ADA documentation. > > Some links that still work: > > Master SLP/ODL Index 1997- 2017 > > Just Checked.? I have the 1999 Q3 (Sept) SPL and ODL which should have VAX ADA V3.5 binaries and Documentation.? Are there Hobbyist PAKs for them? > > > -- > John H. Reinhardt Here's the link the the VSI "Legacy" documentation page.? The Ada there is V3.5 for Alpha but if you want VAX I would think that it's close. -- John H. Reinhardt From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Tue Aug 20 23:28:39 2019 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 23:28:39 -0500 Subject: Current MANX location In-Reply-To: <7133b12e-8838-6b8f-4c2d-92fc0813c9e0@thereinhardts.org> References: <20190820184335.1491118C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <2f7ef1ff-5323-aede-f1a9-fb084f0c2f19@thereinhardts.org> <7A1B3B8A-EB45-439B-AFC1-03EB0879313C@avanthar.com> <0d996081-0ee4-c12b-2795-c83e0ce1b2d0@thereinhardts.org> <7133b12e-8838-6b8f-4c2d-92fc0813c9e0@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: <92bfc708-4421-c130-eec6-93d83b0987c3@thereinhardts.org> On 8/20/2019 11:26 PM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: > On 8/20/2019 11:08 PM, John H. Reinhardt wrote: >> On 8/20/2019 10:37 PM, Zane Healy wrote: >>>> On Aug 20, 2019, at 5:16 PM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk? wrote: >>>> >>>> On 8/20/2019 1:51 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >>>>>> On Aug 20, 2019, at 11:43 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk? wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> From: Glen Slick >>>>>>> This? >>>>>> Yes; thanks! >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't know it didn't show up in my Web searches - I tried a number of >>>>>> different things, no luck. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Also,http://manx.classiccmp.org/? (which is the medium-old URL I had for it) >>>>>> redirects to something that has no working link to Manx; probably ought to fix >>>>>> it to go to the new location. >>>>>> >>>>>> ?? Noel >>>>> Stupid question.? What is MANX?? I?d thought that it was an alternate source of manuals.? To my disappointment, the manuals that turned up when I searched it, apparently don?t exist online anywhere. >>>>> >>>>> Zane >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> It's kind of like an internet index.? Most (if not all?) of the entries are pointers to where the document is (or was) located.? I've run across some dead links but most seem to be current.? At least the stuff I've searched for. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> John H. Reinhardt >>> Leave it to me to search for obscure stuff, like manuals for DEC ALL-IN-1, or DEC Ada.? What I found really odd was that it had part numbers and manual names from one version, but when I clicked on the links it said no known version online. >>> >>> Zane >>> >>> >>> >> Anyway... What version of the ADA manuals are you looking for? VSI has some for an Alpha Version 3.5 that they scraped off the HP site before they disappeared.? I have some older VAX ConDists that might have ADA documentation. >> >> Some links that still work: >> >> Master SLP/ODL Index 1997- 2017 >> >> Just Checked.? I have the 1999 Q3 (Sept) SPL and ODL which should have VAX ADA V3.5 binaries and Documentation.? Are there Hobbyist PAKs for them? >> >> >> -- >> John H. Reinhardt > > Here's the link the the VSI "Legacy" documentation page.? The Ada there is V3.5 for Alpha but if you want VAX I would think that it's close. > No comment.? *facepalm* -- John H. Reinhardt From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Aug 21 04:13:12 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 10:13:12 +0100 Subject: Current MANX location In-Reply-To: <92bfc708-4421-c130-eec6-93d83b0987c3@thereinhardts.org> References: <20190820184335.1491118C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <2f7ef1ff-5323-aede-f1a9-fb084f0c2f19@thereinhardts.org> <7A1B3B8A-EB45-439B-AFC1-03EB0879313C@avanthar.com> <0d996081-0ee4-c12b-2795-c83e0ce1b2d0@thereinhardts.org> <7133b12e-8838-6b8f-4c2d-92fc0813c9e0@thereinhardts.org> <92bfc708-4421-c130-eec6-93d83b0987c3@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: <174301d55800$a8a927c0$f9fb7740$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of John H. Reinhardt > via cctalk > Sent: 21 August 2019 05:29 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ; > Zane Healy > Subject: Re: Current MANX location > > On 8/20/2019 11:26 PM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: > > On 8/20/2019 11:08 PM, John H. Reinhardt wrote: > >> On 8/20/2019 10:37 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > >>>> On Aug 20, 2019, at 5:16 PM, John H. Reinhardt via > cctalk wrote: > >>>> > >>>> On 8/20/2019 1:51 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > >>>>>> On Aug 20, 2019, at 11:43 AM, Noel Chiappa via > cctalk wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> From: Glen Slick > >>>>>>> This? > >>>>>> Yes; thanks! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I don't know it didn't show up in my Web searches - I tried a > >>>>>> number of different things, no luck. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Also,http://manx.classiccmp.org/ (which is the medium-old URL I > >>>>>> had for it) redirects to something that has no working link to > >>>>>> Manx; probably ought to fix it to go to the new location. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Noel > >>>>> Stupid question. What is MANX? I?d thought that it was an alternate > source of manuals. To my disappointment, the manuals that turned up when I > searched it, apparently don?t exist online anywhere. > >>>>> > >>>>> Zane > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> It's kind of like an internet index. Most (if not all?) of the entries are > pointers to where the document is (or was) located. I've run across some dead > links but most seem to be current. At least the stuff I've searched for. > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> John H. Reinhardt > >>> Leave it to me to search for obscure stuff, like manuals for DEC ALL-IN-1, > or DEC Ada. What I found really odd was that it had part numbers and manual > names from one version, but when I clicked on the links it said no known > version online. > >>> > >>> Zane > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> Anyway... What version of the ADA manuals are you looking for? VSI has > some for an Alpha Version 3.5 that they scraped off the HP site before they > disappeared. I have some older VAX ConDists that might have ADA > documentation. > >> > >> Some links that still work: > >> > >> Master SLP/ODL Index 1997- 2017 > >> >> > > >> > >> Just Checked. I have the 1999 Q3 (Sept) SPL and ODL which should have VAX > ADA V3.5 binaries and Documentation. Are there Hobbyist PAKs for them? > >> I think the ADA on the 1993 CDs is V3.0. That?s what is listed on the 1994 SPL which I downloaded from Vaxhaven . There are later SPL CDs at VAXHAVEN and I have some as well ... My Hobbyist Licence includes an ADA licence, my ODL CD which I think is from around 2001 has the ADA 3.5 documents. Dave Wade > >> > >> -- > >> John H. Reinhardt > > > > Here's the link the the VSI "Legacy" documentation page. The Ada there is > V3.5 for Alpha but if you want VAX I would think that it's close. > > > > > > No comment. *facepalm* > > -- > John H. Reinhardt From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Aug 21 09:46:24 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 10:46:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Current MANX location Message-ID: <20190821144624.34D8418C0CA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Zane Healy > What I found really odd was that it had part numbers and manual names > from one version, but when I clicked on the links it said no known > version online. They try and list all known DEC manuals and print sets that ever existed, so just because something is listed in the index page (and has a subsidiary page which is linked from there), doesn't mean there's a known copy online. If you look in the "Status" column on the index page, it will be blank if no online copy is known, or "Online" if there is a copy (to which they link, through the subsidiary page). I have mixed reactions to it. I use it some, often to see if something is online at all. (If I buy a manual, I usually check, to see if I need to scan it, and get it to Al. Have a backlog at the moment, sigh.) The problem is that there are 'false negatives'; i.e. entries where they say 'none known online', but which are available. E.g. KE11-A Field Maintenance Print Set http://manx-docs.org/details.php/1,9358 KE11-B Field Maintenance Print Set http://manx-docs.org/details.php/1,9361 Both listed as not online, but they are: the KE11-A is on Bitsavers, and the KE11-B I also just found (IIRC, on one of the collections they list as indexed). So I'd use it as a 'first stop', but don't depend on the negatives to be accurate - do a Web seach if it pans out. Noel From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed Aug 21 09:50:30 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 07:50:30 -0700 Subject: Current MANX location In-Reply-To: <92bfc708-4421-c130-eec6-93d83b0987c3@thereinhardts.org> References: <20190820184335.1491118C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <2f7ef1ff-5323-aede-f1a9-fb084f0c2f19@thereinhardts.org> <7A1B3B8A-EB45-439B-AFC1-03EB0879313C@avanthar.com> <0d996081-0ee4-c12b-2795-c83e0ce1b2d0@thereinhardts.org> <7133b12e-8838-6b8f-4c2d-92fc0813c9e0@thereinhardts.org> <92bfc708-4421-c130-eec6-93d83b0987c3@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: <8A2A0F8C-4B89-4A52-B88F-8E385EACDD3B@avanthar.com> > On Aug 20, 2019, at 9:28 PM, John H. Reinhardt wrote: >>> Anyway... What version of the ADA manuals are you looking for? VSI has some for an Alpha Version 3.5 that they scraped off the HP site before they disappeared. I have some older VAX ConDists that might have ADA documentation. >>> >>> Some links that still work: >>> >>> Master SLP/ODL Index 1997- 2017 >>> >>> Just Checked. I have the 1999 Q3 (Sept) SPL and ODL which should have VAX ADA V3.5 binaries and Documentation. Are there Hobbyist PAKs for them? >>> >>> >>> -- >>> John H. Reinhardt >> >> Here's the link the the VSI "Legacy" documentation page. The Ada there is V3.5 for Alpha but if you want VAX I would think that it's close. >> > > > No comment. *facepalm* > -- > John H. Reinhardt Thank you for reminding me about the VSI page, I?d forgotten about that, and grabbing the Ada manuals a few months ago. :-) I have some ConDists with documentation, but like the PDF?s. With the PDF?s I can load them on my iPad and read them while I?m flying. I?m running the current version. The Ada license PAK has been part of the hobbyist licenses since at least the 2nd hobbyist release, so about 20 years. Zane From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed Aug 21 10:09:16 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 08:09:16 -0700 Subject: Current MANX location In-Reply-To: <20190821144624.34D8418C0CA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190821144624.34D8418C0CA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <703E7BF5-C642-4C12-81C4-22CB8836273F@avanthar.com> > On Aug 21, 2019, at 7:46 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > So I'd use it as a 'first stop', but don't depend on the negatives to > be accurate - do a Web seach if it pans out. In the case of the ALL-IN-1 documentation, it was sort of a ?Last Stop?. I?ve found some at archive.org, but the main file is corrupt. I finally purchased one of the documents I was after. Zane From pbirkel at gmail.com Wed Aug 21 11:22:39 2019 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 12:22:39 -0400 Subject: Current MANX location In-Reply-To: <20190821144624.34D8418C0CA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190821144624.34D8418C0CA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <0bae01d5583c$a741b140$f5c513c0$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel Chiappa via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2019 10:46 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: Current MANX location ... KE11-B Field Maintenance Print Set http://manx-docs.org/details.php/1,9361 Both listed as not online, but they are: the KE11-A is on Bitsavers, and the KE11-B I also just found (IIRC, on one of the collections they list as indexed). Noel ----- Please share a pointer to the location of that document, Noel. Thank you. paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Aug 21 12:24:20 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 13:24:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Current MANX location Message-ID: <20190821172420.1A36218C0CC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > They try and list all known DEC manuals and print sets Ooops, my mistake; the coverage is much wider than that (they default to DEC). On the home page, there's a pull-down menu labelled "Company", which lists over 100. > From: "Paul Birkel" >> the KE11-B I also just found (IIRC, on one of the collections they list >> as indexed). > Please share a pointer to the location of that document Here: http://wwcm.synology.me/pdf/KE11-B%20Arithmetic%20Unit%20Engineering%20Drawings.pdf It was in someone's clone of Wilber Williams' Computer Museum (UQ Museum of IT), which is indeed in Manx's list of sites they included. ('.me' is Montenegro, and Synology is some Taiwanese tech company.) The whole list is here: http://wwcm.synology.me/scanned.html They have a lot of good stuff (I just found an MD10 brochure there, which is AFAIK the only piece of MD10 documentation left in the world, other than a section in a PDP-10 manual). I need to go through it and see what else they have that I'm missing... Noel From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Aug 21 12:30:48 2019 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 18:30:48 +0100 Subject: Current MANX location In-Reply-To: <20190821144624.34D8418C0CA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190821144624.34D8418C0CA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <8252e21c-72b0-7011-05e1-ff505f5920cc@ntlworld.com> On 21/08/2019 15:46, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > I have mixed reactions to it. I use it some, often to see if something is > online at all. (If I buy a manual, I usually check, to see if I need to > scan it, and get it to Al. Have a backlog at the moment, sigh.) > > The problem is that there are 'false negatives'; i.e. entries where > they say 'none known online', but which are available. It is (AFAIK) a one-person effort (although it's now on its second person after the originator dropped out). There's always been a link to create a "bug report" for missing manuals (or incorrect ones I guess). However that points at codeplex, which MS have made read-only, so I don't know what the correct mechanism might be to get things fixed. I guess the owner needs to move the code somewhere else ... Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Aug 21 13:26:12 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 18:26:12 +0000 Subject: eBay: 1982 Prime Computer In-Reply-To: <398417461.8305652.1566317113932.JavaMail.zimbra@tds.net> References: <20161115142606.185A618C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20161115143443.659A8A58586@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <000201d23f55$300e2890$902a79b0$@classiccmp.org> <582B37F3.4030004@cimmeri.com> <000601d23f61$8ecc7fb0$ac657f10$@classiccmp.org> <582B44BF.6010305@cimmeri.com> <000401d24048$3b176e60$b1464b20$@classiccmp.org> <398417461.8305652.1566317113932.JavaMail.zimbra@tds.net> Message-ID: On 8/20/19 12:05 PM, Jon Auringer via cctalk wrote: > Jay, > > ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jay West" >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 2:30:11 PM >> Subject: RE: eBay: 1982 Prime Computer >> >> So I took a chance..... > > I ran across this thread from 2016 about the Prime 2250 you tried to buy, but can't find any mention of the outcome. Did you have any luck with the flaky seller? > I gave a 2250 away two decades ago. With no software to run (legally) they just make good doorstops. bill From drb at msu.edu Wed Aug 21 13:46:16 2019 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 14:46:16 -0400 Subject: eBay: 1982 Prime Computer In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 21 Aug 2019 18:26:12 -0000.) References: <20161115142606.185A618C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20161115143443.659A8A58586@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <000201d23f55$300e2890$902a79b0$@classiccmp.org> <582B37F3.4030004@cimmeri.com> <000601d23f61$8ecc7fb0$ac657f10$@classiccmp.org> <582B44BF.6010305@cimmeri.com> <000401d24048$3b176e60$b1464b20$@classiccmp.org> <398417461.8305652.1566317113932.JavaMail.zimbra@tds.net> Message-ID: <20190821184616.897DA3F8B7@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I gave a 2250 away two decades ago. With no software to run > (legally) they just make good doorstops. While Bill's certainly welcome to operate according to the above, all indications are that nobody gives a rat's ass any more about that IP. De From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Aug 21 16:13:55 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 21:13:55 +0000 Subject: eBay: 1982 Prime Computer In-Reply-To: <20190821184616.897DA3F8B7@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20161115142606.185A618C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20161115143443.659A8A58586@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <000201d23f55$300e2890$902a79b0$@classiccmp.org> <582B37F3.4030004@cimmeri.com> <000601d23f61$8ecc7fb0$ac657f10$@classiccmp.org> <582B44BF.6010305@cimmeri.com> <000401d24048$3b176e60$b1464b20$@classiccmp.org> <398417461.8305652.1566317113932.JavaMail.zimbra@tds.net> <20190821184616.897DA3F8B7@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On 8/21/19 2:46 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > > I gave a 2250 away two decades ago. With no software to run > > (legally) they just make good doorstops. > > While Bill's certainly welcome to operate according to the above, all > indications are that nobody gives a rat's ass any more about that IP. > > De > Be careful there. When I got rid of it Primes and Primos were still actively being maintained. I gave it to someone who was a maintainer of 50 Series Primes. The owner of the IP was well known commercially and still very actively maintaining that ownership. And there was never going to be a Hobbyist Program like we have for things like VMS. In any event, I have never any site giving away copies of Primos. bill From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Wed Aug 21 22:29:05 2019 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 03:29:05 +0000 Subject: IBM PT-2 Message-ID: Anyone know anything about this?? https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vtg-1980-IBM-PT-2-Computer-Hall-Effect-Magnet-Keyboard-w-Program-Test-Manuals/253997593352?hash=item3b236fb308&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&enc=AQAEAAADIKvsXIZtBqdkfsZsMtzFbFsbX3WcW5fmB%2Fx7ZbaZTyexIhK7W9VLgW%2BiANqra5tcLfLUvucq%2FWwy3JSlehkVi0H0TnsZ9x3lnT4M%2FNK0I23zl7BNBUVztS8698RExuOgZcHXO6v7FRUK%2BTMxC2BELPLkgdRvpFWMB9BbXQW1zu7SXs5SoLJrm3aR8m2kIhrt1aHBf3njB7KD9d70jXprDh7LYyoD6BlZOSFKMSelULNCkR06EvKg4bm5Hlj2kT9gzHObAbHnS4Dy725pF6f0MSjGs0nuvyw3P701B8pbREOy%2BFwa7KynI7p%2F%2FDZSd3NLb8aiylmIQvuIxdA2jf9NKjtjNK4OtBGLPK1kCinJtpG3edC%2Bg3zcgF%2BfyYqsWzgdaR5BLc7eWvxDvDJVYrc9GagH52%2BXriCUj815vLusAYJ4MLBZEf4SumlXsAzKamOO1YHDdAY5XcZWlbJj4%2BbUDYGiVYVey5jbU4p6AR07GBD1NZ9VxtZLXu3%2BrEvbDjS062zfupJn1OsyqxjkXo4S94QVavnXzvg%2BlbUU6igkijeh8tFnsqvD9YBuGYX5BkjQbg7rxOMS9orHpRd28wEsc%2BFknJ71Lz6aCnlB4RpAZbiHprxzhMYckTqYLMAMhmYF92p5vdMYFd9gFN7jkUHKQPMgwjpZpGHrg3UeEEMrPI%2FlDEtwSC0tQBwpD4phxoid3H8rPCpQ3eavJ7UwJUNfXV5k5unTOHwY%2BxT0TTtCCfqMJXqRNMNJkokBK375vCSohk1GexkbC7vvHsB2jB6fh6sjqYTUk4JuzulLDCGrCvZaKBAW9PF8L4%2F%2BDs1N20TwMxOhigqK0TPCWMRT0CPP5lk%2BiqRoJcY0jxsLoQ%2ByEoxMik5Mf5jqeAbaFw6Sg9lXG45gGwa7JiO3kQ7W6reG3LKEMsC2kmLq8q%2BtL%2FvK9aA0gP9in9SIXNZr%2Bh40fnoMD4rS%2Bpki8If24eqaAsA75pDMYNjIgFr85VGRhiHR3g7ymKQ3%2BHET6pyCnW0pt677L6Ggah3K%2BrNu1BSYjdMm3dfFPTWvNtdFRfaBNIweNSEM&checksum=25399759335250961bc599bf4c1a8a1422d41778b250 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Aug 21 22:37:45 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 23:37:45 -0400 Subject: IBM PT-2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think this was a CE tool used with machines with the UC processor. My info is pretty sketchy... -- Will On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 11:29 PM Benjamin Huntsman via cctalk wrote: > > Anyone know anything about this?? > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vtg-1980-IBM-PT-2-Computer-Hall-Effect-Magnet-Keyboard-w-Program-Test-Manuals/253997593352?hash=item3b236fb308&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&enc=AQAEAAADIKvsXIZtBqdkfsZsMtzFbFsbX3WcW5fmB%2Fx7ZbaZTyexIhK7W9VLgW%2BiANqra5tcLfLUvucq%2FWwy3JSlehkVi0H0TnsZ9x3lnT4M%2FNK0I23zl7BNBUVztS8698RExuOgZcHXO6v7FRUK%2BTMxC2BELPLkgdRvpFWMB9BbXQW1zu7SXs5SoLJrm3aR8m2kIhrt1aHBf3njB7KD9d70jXprDh7LYyoD6BlZOSFKMSelULNCkR06EvKg4bm5Hlj2kT9gzHObAbHnS4Dy725pF6f0MSjGs0nuvyw3P701B8pbREOy%2BFwa7KynI7p%2F%2FDZSd3NLb8aiylmIQvuIxdA2jf9NKjtjNK4OtBGLPK1kCinJtpG3edC%2Bg3zcgF%2BfyYqsWzgdaR5BLc7eWvxDvDJVYrc9GagH52%2BXriCUj815vLusAYJ4MLBZEf4SumlXsAzKamOO1YHDdAY5XcZWlbJj4%2BbUDYGiVYVey5jbU4p6AR07GBD1NZ9VxtZLXu3%2BrEvbDjS062zfupJn1OsyqxjkXo4S94QVavnXzvg%2BlbUU6igkijeh8tFnsqvD9YBuGYX5BkjQbg7rxOMS9orHpRd28wEsc%2BFknJ71Lz6aCnlB4RpAZbiHprxzhMYckTqYLMAMhmYF92p5vdMYFd9gFN7jkUHKQPMgwjpZpGHrg3UeEEMrPI%2FlDEtwSC0tQBwpD4phxoid3H8rPCpQ3eavJ7UwJUNfXV5k5unTOHwY%2BxT0TTtCCfqMJXqRNMNJkokBK375vCSohk1GexkbC7vvHsB2jB6fh6sjqYTUk4JuzulLDCGrCvZaKBAW9PF8L4%2F%2BDs1N20TwMxOhigqK0TPCWMRT0CPP5lk%2BiqRoJcY0jxsLoQ%2ByEoxMik5Mf5jqeAbaFw6Sg9lXG45gGwa7JiO3kQ7W6reG3LKEMsC2kmLq8q%2BtL%2FvK9aA0gP9in9SIXNZr%2Bh40fnoMD4rS%2Bpki8If24eqaAsA75pDMYNjIgFr85VGRhiHR3g7ymKQ3%2BHET6pyCnW0pt677L6Ggah3K%2BrNu1BSYjdMm3dfFPTWvNtdFRfaBNIweNSEM&checksum=25399759335250961bc599bf4c1a8a1422d41778b250 > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 21 22:45:31 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2019 20:45:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: shortening eBay URLSs (Was: IBM PT-2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A small off-topic trivial tip: That URL can be reduced to: https://www.ebay.com/itm/253997593352 From 18 lines to 1, losing almost a thousand extraneous chracters. (The stuff between itm/ and /auction number is not needed for the URL, nor is the '?' and anything following.) While the description before the auction number may be useful, the appended stuff on the end isn't. On Thu, 22 Aug 2019, Benjamin Huntsman via cctalk wrote: > Anyone know anything about this?? > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vtg-1980-IBM-PT-2-Computer-Hall-Effect-Magnet-Keyboard-w-Program-Test-Manuals/253997593352?hash=item3b236fb308&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&enc=AQAEAAADIKvsXIZtBqdkfsZsMtzFbFsbX3WcW5fmB%2Fx7ZbaZTyexIhK7W9VLgW%2BiANqra5tcLfLUvucq%2FWwy3JSlehkVi0H0TnsZ9x3lnT4M%2FNK0I23zl7BNBUVztS8698RExuOgZcHXO6v7FRUK%2BTMxC2BELPLkgdRvpFWMB9BbXQW1zu7SXs5SoLJrm3aR8m2kIhrt1aHBf3njB7KD9d70jXprDh7LYyoD6BlZOSFKMSelULNCkR06EvKg4bm5Hlj2kT9gzHObAbHnS4Dy725pF6f0MSjGs0nuvyw3P701B8pbREOy%2BFwa7KynI7p%2F%2FDZSd3NLb8aiylmIQvuIxdA2jf9NKjtjNK4OtBGLPK1kCinJtpG3edC%2Bg3zcgF%2BfyYqsWzgdaR5BLc7eWvxDvDJVYrc9GagH52%2BXriCUj815vLusAYJ4MLBZEf4SumlXsAzKamOO1YHDdAY5XcZWlbJj4%2BbUDYGiVYVey5jbU4p6AR07GBD1NZ9VxtZLXu3%2BrEvbDjS062zfupJn1OsyqxjkXo4S94QVavnXzvg%2BlbUU6igkijeh8tFnsqvD9YBuGYX5BkjQbg7rxOMS9orHpRd28wEsc%2BFknJ71Lz6aCnlB4RpAZbiHprxzhMYckTqYLMAMhmYF92p5vdMYFd9gFN7jkUHKQPMgwjpZpGHrg3UeEEMrPI%2FlDEtwSC0tQBwpD4phxoid3H8rPCpQ3eavJ7UwJUNfXV5k5unTOHwY%2BxT0TTtCCfqMJXqRNMNJkokBK375vCSohk1GexkbC7vvHsB2jB6fh6sjqYTUk4JuzulLDCGrCvZaKBAW9PF8L4%2F%2BDs1N20TwMxOhigqK0TPCWMRT0CPP5lk%2BiqRoJcY0jxsLoQ%2ByEoxMik5Mf5jqeAbaFw6Sg9lXG45gGwa7JiO3kQ7W6reG3LKEMsC2kmLq8q%2BtL%2FvK9aA0gP9in9SIXNZr%2Bh40fnoMD4rS%2Bpki8If24eqaAsA75pDMYNjIgFr85VGRhiHR3g7ymKQ3%2BHET6pyCnW0pt677L6Ggah3K%2BrNu1BSYjdMm3dfFPTWvNtdFRfaBNIweNSEM&checksum=25399759335250961bc599bf4c1a8a1422d41778b250 From guykd at optusnet.com.au Wed Aug 21 23:48:54 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 14:48:54 +1000 Subject: OT: shortening eBay URLSs (Was: IBM PT-2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190822144854.00e4b5d8@mail.optusnet.com.au> Or to just the item number: 253997593352 Assuming your browser is going to expand typing eb to ebay.com, then you enter the item number in the ebay search box. Guy At 08:45 PM 21/08/2019 -0700, you wrote: >A small off-topic trivial tip: >That URL can be reduced to: > >https://www.ebay.com/itm/253997593352 > >From 18 lines to 1, losing almost a thousand extraneous chracters. >(The stuff between itm/ and /auction number is not needed for the URL, nor >is the '?' and anything following.) >While the description before the auction number may be useful, the >appended stuff on the end isn't. > > >On Thu, 22 Aug 2019, Benjamin Huntsman via cctalk wrote: > >> Anyone know anything about this?? >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vtg-1980-IBM-PT-2-Computer-Hall-Effect-Magnet-Keyboard-w-Program-Test-Manuals/253997593352?hash=item3b236fb308&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&enc=AQAEAAADIKvsXIZtBqdkfsZsMtzFbFsbX3WcW5fmB%2Fx7ZbaZTyexIhK7W9VLgW%2BiANqra5tcLfLUvucq%2FWwy3JSlehkVi0H0TnsZ9x3lnT4M%2FNK0I23zl7BNBUVztS8698RExuOgZcHXO6v7FRUK%2BTMxC2BELPLkgdRvpFWMB9BbXQW1zu7SXs5SoLJrm3aR8m2kIhrt1aHBf3njB7KD9d70jXprDh7LYyoD6BlZOSFKMSelULNCkR06EvKg4bm5Hlj2kT9gzHObAbHnS4Dy725pF6f0MSjGs0nuvyw3P701B8pbREOy%2BFwa7KynI7p%2F%2FDZSd3NLb8aiylmIQvuIxdA2jf9NKjtjNK4OtBGLPK1kCinJtpG3edC%2Bg3zcgF%2BfyYqsWzgdaR5BLc7eWvxDvDJVYrc9GagH52%2BXriCUj815vLusAYJ4MLBZEf4SumlXsAzKamOO1YHDdAY5XcZWlbJj4%2BbUDYGiVYVey5jbU4p6AR07GBD1NZ9VxtZLXu3%2BrEvbDjS062zfupJn1OsyqxjkXo4S94QVavnXzvg%2BlbUU6igkijeh8tFnsqvD9YBuGYX5BkjQbg7rxOMS9orHpRd28wEsc%2BFknJ71Lz6aCnlB4RpAZbiHprxzhMYckTqYLMAMhmYF92p5vdMYFd9gFN7jkUHKQPMgwjpZpGHrg3UeEEMrPI%2FlDEtwSC0tQBwpD4phxoid3H8rPCpQ3eavJ7UwJUNfXV5k5unTOHwY%2BxT0TTtCCfqMJXqRNMNJkokBK375vCSohk1GexkbC7vvHsB2jB 6fh6s jqYTUk4JuzulLDCGrCvZaKBAW9PF8L4%2F%2BDs1N20TwMxOhigqK0TPCWMRT0CPP5lk%2BiqRoJcY0jxsLoQ%2ByEoxMik5Mf5jqeAbaFw6Sg9lXG45gGwa7JiO3kQ7W6reG3LKEMsC2kmLq8q%2BtL%2FvK9aA0gP9in9SIXNZr%2Bh40fnoMD4rS%2Bpki8If24eqaAsA75pDMYNjIgFr85VGRhiHR3g7ymKQ3%2BHET6pyCnW0pt677L6Ggah3K%2BrNu1BSYjdMm3dfFPTWvNtdFRfaBNIweNSEM&checksum=25399759335250961bc599bf4c1a8a1422d41778b250 > From steven at malikoff.com Thu Aug 22 00:23:38 2019 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 15:23:38 +1000 Subject: OT: shortening eBay URLSs (Was: IBM PT-2 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190822144854.00e4b5d8@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20190822144854.00e4b5d8@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <61355e82b7e22841efb321f89ed844d8.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Guy said > Or to just the item number: > 253997593352 > > Assuming your browser is going to expand typing eb to ebay.com, then you enter the item number in the ebay search box. > > Guy > > At 08:45 PM 21/08/2019 -0700, you wrote: >>A small off-topic trivial tip: >>That URL can be reduced to: >> >>https://www.ebay.com/itm/253997593352 Entering 'ebay 253997593352' into a search engine also works for me. Steve From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Thu Aug 22 01:18:37 2019 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 06:18:37 +0000 Subject: OT: shortening eBay URLSs (Was: IBM PT-2 In-Reply-To: <61355e82b7e22841efb321f89ed844d8.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20190822144854.00e4b5d8@mail.optusnet.com.au>, <61355e82b7e22841efb321f89ed844d8.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: I apologize for the URL... and the subsequent tangent. Sorry, that was just a sloppy copy-and-paste. ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Steve Malikoff via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2019 10:23 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: OT: shortening eBay URLSs (Was: IBM PT-2 Guy said > Or to just the item number: > 253997593352 > > Assuming your browser is going to expand typing eb to ebay.com, then you enter the item number in the ebay search box. > > Guy > > At 08:45 PM 21/08/2019 -0700, you wrote: >>A small off-topic trivial tip: >>That URL can be reduced to: >> >>https://www.ebay.com/itm/253997593352 Entering 'ebay 253997593352' into a search engine also works for me. Steve From phb.hfx at gmail.com Thu Aug 22 07:12:26 2019 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 09:12:26 -0300 Subject: IBM PT-2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I can confirm that this is a CE tool.? From what I remember they where used mainly by CEs in the GSD division.? The large grey lump to the left of the PT-2 is a channel adapter used for monitoring 370 channels.? The black box on the lower right is a coax switch and not part of a PT-2.? They where mainly used for monitoring communication lines and at the time when I saw one in use for that, 40 years ago, it had the advantage of being able to decode the Bisync or SDLC protocol right on the machine rather than having to send the data off to have it analyzed.? I recall that there was an attachment with multiple types of connectors for communication lines along with indicator lights for important signals.? Missing from the pictures is the external monitor and tape cartridges that contained the programs for the machine. There was also a later version of this machine that had a built in LCD display. Paul. On 2019-08-22 12:37 a.m., William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > I think this was a CE tool used with machines with the UC processor. > My info is pretty sketchy... > > -- > Will > > On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 11:29 PM Benjamin Huntsman via cctalk > wrote: >> Anyone know anything about this?? >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vtg-1980-IBM-PT-2-Computer-Hall-Effect-Magnet-Keyboard-w-Program-Test-Manuals/253997593352?hash=item3b236fb308&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&enc=AQAEAAADIKvsXIZtBqdkfsZsMtzFbFsbX3WcW5fmB%2Fx7ZbaZTyexIhK7W9VLgW%2BiANqra5tcLfLUvucq%2FWwy3JSlehkVi0H0TnsZ9x3lnT4M%2FNK0I23zl7BNBUVztS8698RExuOgZcHXO6v7FRUK%2BTMxC2BELPLkgdRvpFWMB9BbXQW1zu7SXs5SoLJrm3aR8m2kIhrt1aHBf3njB7KD9d70jXprDh7LYyoD6BlZOSFKMSelULNCkR06EvKg4bm5Hlj2kT9gzHObAbHnS4Dy725pF6f0MSjGs0nuvyw3P701B8pbREOy%2BFwa7KynI7p%2F%2FDZSd3NLb8aiylmIQvuIxdA2jf9NKjtjNK4OtBGLPK1kCinJtpG3edC%2Bg3zcgF%2BfyYqsWzgdaR5BLc7eWvxDvDJVYrc9GagH52%2BXriCUj815vLusAYJ4MLBZEf4SumlXsAzKamOO1YHDdAY5XcZWlbJj4%2BbUDYGiVYVey5jbU4p6AR07GBD1NZ9VxtZLXu3%2BrEvbDjS062zfupJn1OsyqxjkXo4S94QVavnXzvg%2BlbUU6igkijeh8tFnsqvD9YBuGYX5BkjQbg7rxOMS9orHpRd28wEsc%2BFknJ71Lz6aCnlB4RpAZbiHprxzhMYckTqYLMAMhmYF92p5vdMYFd9gFN7jkUHKQPMgwjpZpGHrg3UeEEMrPI%2FlDEtwSC0tQBwpD4phxoid3H8rPCpQ3eavJ7UwJUNfXV5k5unTOHwY%2BxT0TTtCCfqMJXqRNMNJkokBK375vCSohk1GexkbC7vvHsB2jB6fh6sjqYTUk4JuzulLDCGrCvZaKBAW9PF8L4%2F%2BDs1N20TwMxOhigqK0TPCWMRT0CPP5lk%2BiqRoJcY0jxsLoQ%2ByEoxMik5Mf5jqeAbaFw6Sg9lXG45gGwa7JiO3kQ7W6reG3LKEMsC2kmLq8q%2BtL%2FvK9aA0gP9in9SIXNZr%2Bh40fnoMD4rS%2Bpki8If24eqaAsA75pDMYNjIgFr85VGRhiHR3g7ymKQ3%2BHET6pyCnW0pt677L6Ggah3K%2BrNu1BSYjdMm3dfFPTWvNtdFRfaBNIweNSEM&checksum=25399759335250961bc599bf4c1a8a1422d41778b250 >> >> >> From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Aug 22 07:37:20 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 08:37:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: KE11-B manuals (Was: Current MANX location) Message-ID: <20190822123720.E392E18C0E6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > KE11-B Field Maintenance Print Set > http://manx-docs.org/details.php/1,9361 > the KE11-B I also just found (IIRC, on one of the collections they list > as indexed). Oh, speaking of KE11-B's, does anyone have either the Technical or User's manual for it (I couldn't locate either)? It appears to be a program-compatible re-implementation of the KE11-A, on a single hex board, but it'd be nice to confirm that, and find out more about it. E.g. does it go in a MUD slot? (Yes, with the prints, I could eventually work out the answers to most questions - the prints do contain the PROM contents - but I'm lazy... :-) Noel From pbirkel at gmail.com Thu Aug 22 06:31:49 2019 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 07:31:49 -0400 Subject: DEC Scalps Message-ID: <0d5801d558dd$305ac750$911055f0$@gmail.com> https://www.ebay.com/itm/312738923353 Sez: "Older DEC PDP console face-plates DEC PDP 11/55 rare, PDP 8-straight 8 'glass'rare, PDP 8/L, PDP 8/I, DEC TU58 status/diag. Panel . All in goodshape. $1000 for the lot or $200 apiece. " ----- From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Aug 22 08:25:55 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 09:25:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: KE11-A craze (Was: Current MANX location) Message-ID: <20190822132555.7534F18C0E6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > KE11-A Field Maintenance Print Set > http://manx-docs.org/details.php/1,9358 Speaking of KE11-A's, does anyone know what's behind the bidding wars on recent eBay KE11-A component board listings, e.g.: https://www.ebay.com/itm/372685033144 AFAIK, the boards (a complete set is an M7210, M7211, M827, and two M234's) are pretty useless without the custom backplane, so do some people have such, or do they not know they need the backplane, or what? I do have a couple of BB11's (they came in an old custom interface I bought), and the KE11-A FMPS includes the backplane wiring, so if I were interested enough to devote the time to wiring a replacement backplane, I could probably get one running, but they aren't _that_ interesting... Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 22 11:01:02 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 09:01:02 -0700 Subject: DEC Scalps In-Reply-To: <0d5801d558dd$305ac750$911055f0$@gmail.com> References: <0d5801d558dd$305ac750$911055f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <48799b61-c3fc-5561-f17f-63001d6338d5@bitsavers.org> On 8/22/19 4:31 AM, Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote: > DEC TU58 status/diag. Panel wrong they are for the TC08 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Aug 22 11:46:24 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 12:46:24 -0400 Subject: RL02s available Message-ID: I have a pair of RL02 drives available, and can bring them to VCFmw in about three weeks. Pretty cheap. Untested. Contact me off list. -- Will From S2ci.777 at Live.COM Thu Aug 22 10:19:54 2019 From: S2ci.777 at Live.COM (Mr. Scott J. Stockwell) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 15:19:54 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/34's with Octal Programmers Console (Model A or C) and the rest of the peripherals; etc. Message-ID: Hi Jim, Do you still have any systems and/or peripherals left? I'm looking for a PDP-11/34 Model A or C (Preferably C) with the Octal Programmers Console and Digital Display along with peripherals. Please let me know what you have. Would you be willing to accept monthly payments because I'm a disabled vet and get paid within the first week of each month? I have a pickup truck and I'm coming from the Cleburne, TX area. Would be willing to meet you half way. Looking forward to your reply. Most sincere and all the best, Scott From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Aug 22 12:05:17 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 13:05:17 -0400 Subject: RL02s not available Message-ID: RLs are spoken for! -- Will From allisonportable at gmail.com Thu Aug 22 12:06:21 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 13:06:21 -0400 Subject: RL02s available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 8/22/19 12:46 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > I have a pair of RL02 drives available, and can bring them to VCFmw in > about three weeks. Pretty cheap. Untested. > > Contact me off list. > > -- > Will > Where are they now? Allison From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Aug 22 12:16:07 2019 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 11:16:07 -0600 Subject: bit-slice and microcode discussion list Message-ID: On another mailing list, someone asked if there was any list specifically about bit-slice design and microcoding. I don't know of one, so I've created a new mailing list specifically for those topics: http://lists.brouhaha.com/mailman/listinfo/bit-slicers The intent is for the list to cover technical discussion of bit-slice hardware design and/or microcoding. In other words, discussion of microcoding that doesn't use bit-slice hardware is fine. From tosteve at yahoo.com Thu Aug 22 12:31:46 2019 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (Steven Stengel) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 10:31:46 -0700 Subject: Shipping from Europe to USA Message-ID: How do I ship a 50 pound computer from Europe to the United States? Who has good rates? Thanks- Steve From hagstrom at bu.edu Thu Aug 22 12:41:43 2019 From: hagstrom at bu.edu (Hagstrom, Paul) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 17:41:43 +0000 Subject: OT: shortening eBay URLSs (Was: IBM PT-2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <235F1F36-FE7F-494B-B4EE-E297670D364F@bu.edu> One further note on shortening eBay links. A few months ago, eBay made it harder to use links to ended auctions, because it will (sometimes? often?) automatically redirect you to some active auctions that it deems to be similar. If you add ?nordt=true&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc to the end, it will stay on the auction you asked for, even if it has ended. That is: https://www.ebay.com/itm/283576035281?nordt=true&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc should continue to point to this auction (for 90 days or so at least) even after the listing is closed. I am not 100% sure that all of the parameters there are required, I only know that it works with rt, nordt, and orig_cvip there. I think I tried removing one or more and it stopped working, but I was not systematic, since, well, I didn't really care. This is what I use in the show notes of the Retrocomputing Roundtable episodes, since odds are good that auctions we talk about there will have ended by the time people try the links. In the context of cctalk, this might be useful for pointing to auctions that are interesting to look at, rather than to auctions that people might want to participate in (since in that latter case, ended auctions stop being interesting). -Paul > On Aug 21, 2019, at 11:45 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > A small off-topic trivial tip: > That URL can be reduced to: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/253997593352 > > From 18 lines to 1, losing almost a thousand extraneous chracters. > (The stuff between itm/ and /auction number is not needed for the URL, nor is the '?' and anything following.) > While the description before the auction number may be useful, the appended stuff on the end isn't. > > > On Thu, 22 Aug 2019, Benjamin Huntsman via cctalk wrote: > >> Anyone know anything about this?? >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vtg-1980-IBM-PT-2-Computer-Hall-Effect-Magnet-Keyboard-w-Program-Test-Manuals/253997593352?hash=item3b236fb308&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&enc=AQAEAAADIKvsXIZtBqdkfsZsMtzFbFsbX3WcW5fmB%2Fx7ZbaZTyexIhK7W9VLgW%2BiANqra5tcLfLUvucq%2FWwy3JSlehkVi0H0TnsZ9x3lnT4M%2FNK0I23zl7BNBUVztS8698RExuOgZcHXO6v7FRUK%2BTMxC2BELPLkgdRvpFWMB9BbXQW1zu7SXs5SoLJrm3aR8m2kIhrt1aHBf3njB7KD9d70jXprDh7LYyoD6BlZOSFKMSelULNCkR06EvKg4bm5Hlj2kT9gzHObAbHnS4Dy725pF6f0MSjGs0nuvyw3P701B8pbREOy%2BFwa7KynI7p%2F%2FDZSd3NLb8aiylmIQvuIxdA2jf9NKjtjNK4OtBGLPK1kCinJtpG3edC%2Bg3zcgF%2BfyYqsWzgdaR5BLc7eWvxDvDJVYrc9GagH52%2BXriCUj815vLusAYJ4MLBZEf4SumlXsAzKamOO1YHDdAY5XcZWlbJj4%2BbUDYGiVYVey5jbU4p6AR07GBD1NZ9VxtZLXu3%2BrEvbDjS062zfupJn1OsyqxjkXo4S94QVavnXzvg%2BlbUU6igkijeh8tFnsqvD9YBuGYX5BkjQbg7rxOMS9orHpRd28wEsc%2BFknJ71Lz6aCnlB4RpAZbiHprxzhMYckTqYLMAMhmYF92p5vdMYFd9gFN7jkUHKQPMgwjpZpGHrg3UeEEMrPI%2FlDEtwSC0tQBwpD4phxoid3H8rPCpQ3eavJ7UwJUNfXV5k5unTOHwY%2BxT0TTtCCfqMJXqRNMNJkokBK375vCSohk1GexkbC7vvHsB2jB6fh6sjqYTUk4JuzulLDCGrCvZaKBAW9PF8L4%2F%2BDs1N20TwMxOhigqK0TPCWMRT0CPP5lk%2BiqRoJcY0jxsLoQ%2ByEoxMik5Mf5jqeAbaFw6Sg9lXG45gGwa7JiO3kQ7W6reG3LKEMsC2kmLq8q%2BtL%2FvK9aA0gP9in9SIXNZr%2Bh40fnoMD4rS%2Bpki8If24eqaAsA75pDMYNjIgFr85VGRhiHR3g7ymKQ3%2BHET6pyCnW0pt677L6Ggah3K%2BrNu1BSYjdMm3dfFPTWvNtdFRfaBNIweNSEM&checksum=25399759335250961bc599bf4c1a8a1422d41778b250 From sales at elecplus.com Thu Aug 22 12:43:45 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 12:43:45 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/34's with Octal Programmers Console (Model A or C) and the rest of the peripherals; etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <079e01d55911$26681890$733849b0$@com> Hi Scott, We do not have any of these. Best of luck to you! Cindy Croxton -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mr. Scott J. Stockwell via cctalk Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2019 10:20 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: PDP-11/34's with Octal Programmers Console (Model A or C) and the rest of the peripherals; etc. Importance: High Hi Jim, Do you still have any systems and/or peripherals left? I'm looking for a PDP-11/34 Model A or C (Preferably C) with the Octal Programmers Console and Digital Display along with peripherals. Please let me know what you have. Would you be willing to accept monthly payments because I'm a disabled vet and get paid within the first week of each month? I have a pickup truck and I'm coming from the Cleburne, TX area. Would be willing to meet you half way. Looking forward to your reply. Most sincere and all the best, Scott --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 22 12:53:23 2019 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 10:53:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaypro 4/84 and 10 for sale Message-ID: Please see this post: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?71265-Kaypros-for-sale! thanks! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 22 13:07:07 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 11:07:07 -0700 Subject: RL02s not available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5a1dc440-7aa8-aa65-fe48-0f42007b4a63@bitsavers.org> I assume these are the ones you were going to bring out here a few years ago? On 8/22/19 10:05 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > RLs are spoken for! > > -- > Will > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 22 13:25:29 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 12:25:29 -0600 Subject: Shipping from Europe to USA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5216cc0f-03ab-fee0-184f-91444d49a312@jetnet.ab.ca> On 8/22/2019 11:31 AM, Steven Stengel via cctalk wrote: > How do I ship a 50 pound computer from Europe to the United States? Who has good rates? > Thanks- > Steve Well good packing would double the weight, and how fast do you/they need it? Ben. From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Thu Aug 22 13:30:10 2019 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 18:30:10 +0000 Subject: Shipping from Europe to USA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A few weeks ago I shipped approx 39 kilos from The Netherlands to USA (HP A990). At least in Holland, most shippers do not accept such heavy stuff (max 30 kilos). Only UPS did ? and yes, the ?horror? stories *are* true. They managed to drop the package. Not from 4 inches above ground, but more, because a *steel corner* had a dent! I thought I packed it well (enough), but my advice is: using UPS you cannot get it packed well enough ? ________________________________ Van: cctalk namens Steven Stengel via cctalk Verzonden: Thursday, August 22, 2019 7:31:46 PM Aan: Cc Onderwerp: Shipping from Europe to USA How do I ship a 50 pound computer from Europe to the United States? Who has good rates? Thanks- Steve From abuse at cabal.org.uk Thu Aug 22 13:35:40 2019 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 20:35:40 +0200 Subject: Shipping from Europe to USA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20190822183540.GA2161@mooli.org.uk> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 10:31:46AM -0700, Steven Stengel via cctalk wrote: > How do I ship a 50 pound computer from Europe to the United States? Who has > good rates? "Europe" contains so many diverse states and cultures that you're going to have to be a bit more precise about where in the 4 million square miles of Europe it is. A country would be a good start, but a province or city would be better if it's a large country. Likewise, it can matter which US state it's being delivered to. You will also need to be more precise about the weight, since "50 pound" sounds like an estimate. In particular, 50lb is 22.7kg, and a common price band is "under 20kg", so if you can shave 2.7kg off it, you'll save money. To give a guideline price from the local incumbent, PostNL will charge ?105.30 to shift a 20kg "pakket" (no larger than 1m?50cm?50cm) from the Netherlands to the USA. If it's 20.001kg, they'll tell you to get knotted with your overweight package as they'll only do up to 30kg within Europe. "About a hundred" is also in line with quotes I had for shipping ~20kg from London to Houston a few years back. It's possible that you can find somebody who is prepared to forfeit their hold space on an international flight and take their personal stuff in hand luggage. Baggage handlers can be clumsy, thieving little buggers, but they're still nowhere near as awful as couriers. From pat at vax11.net Thu Aug 22 13:36:47 2019 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 14:36:47 -0400 Subject: Shipping from Europe to USA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The automated package sorting I'm told includes dropping packages from one conveyor belt to another, and stuff can fall up to 6ft (though more likely when something gets clogged/jammed up and packages fall off of the conveyor system). 39kg/90lbs is heavy enough that it probably should be palletized/crated and go freight. I'd probably pick a postal service, or DHL as my first pick for shipping ~50lb internationally. Pat On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 2:30 PM Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote: > > A few weeks ago I shipped approx 39 kilos from The Netherlands to USA (HP A990). > At least in Holland, most shippers do not accept such heavy stuff (max 30 kilos). > > Only UPS did ? and yes, the ?horror? stories *are* true. They managed to drop the package. > > Not from 4 inches above ground, but more, because a *steel corner* had a dent! > > I thought I packed it well (enough), but my advice is: using UPS you cannot get it packed well enough ? > > > > > > ________________________________ > Van: cctalk namens Steven Stengel via cctalk > Verzonden: Thursday, August 22, 2019 7:31:46 PM > Aan: Cc > Onderwerp: Shipping from Europe to USA > > How do I ship a 50 pound computer from Europe to the United States? Who has good rates? > Thanks- > Steve > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Aug 22 13:45:31 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 14:45:31 -0400 Subject: RL02s not available In-Reply-To: <5a1dc440-7aa8-aa65-fe48-0f42007b4a63@bitsavers.org> References: <5a1dc440-7aa8-aa65-fe48-0f42007b4a63@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > I assume these are the ones you were going to bring out > here a few years ago? Didn't you tell me you lost interest? -- Will From abuse at cabal.org.uk Thu Aug 22 13:57:34 2019 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 20:57:34 +0200 Subject: Shipping from Europe to USA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20190822185734.GB2161@mooli.org.uk> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 06:30:10PM +0000, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote: > A few weeks ago I shipped approx 39 kilos from The Netherlands to USA (HP > A990). At least in Holland, most shippers do not accept such heavy stuff (max > 30 kilos). Yeah, well, "dat kan niet" *is* the Dutch motto. I'm surprised it's not on the passport. > Only UPS did ? and yes, the ?horror? stories *are* true. They managed to drop > the package. Not from 4 inches above ground, but more, because a *steel > corner* had a dent! Hence that old joke: "If being air dropped out of a C-130 into a minefield constitutes 'moderately rough handling', what constitutes 'very rough handling'?" "Being shipped UPS". From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Aug 22 14:09:50 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 15:09:50 -0400 Subject: Shipping from Europe to USA In-Reply-To: <20190822185734.GB2161@mooli.org.uk> References: <20190822185734.GB2161@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <212B189A-B573-429E-8694-50DD5FEC3ED8@comcast.net> > On Aug 22, 2019, at 2:57 PM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > > On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 06:30:10PM +0000, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote: > ... >> Only UPS did ? and yes, the ?horror? stories *are* true. They managed to drop >> the package. Not from 4 inches above ground, but more, because a *steel >> corner* had a dent! > > Hence that old joke: "If being air dropped out of a C-130 into a minefield > constitutes 'moderately rough handling', what constitutes 'very rough > handling'?" "Being shipped UPS". I'm reminded of a legendary story from a long time ago, of a DEC disk being air-shipped to a customer. RP03? Not sure, but something of that size class. The story was that the shipping company hadn't strapped it down properly, so when the plane applied takeoff power, the drive slid backwards in the cargo hold. Fast enough to exit the hold through the airplane skin, landing on the runway with a nice bounce. The drive was taken back to Maynard, where it was observed that the corner of the frame was badly bent. The techs propped it up on a cinder block and turned the drive on; it worked fine. Sure sounds like a fairy tale, but it's a fun one. paul From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Thu Aug 22 14:21:39 2019 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 14:21:39 -0500 Subject: Shipping from Europe to USA In-Reply-To: <212B189A-B573-429E-8694-50DD5FEC3ED8@comcast.net> References: <20190822185734.GB2161@mooli.org.uk> <212B189A-B573-429E-8694-50DD5FEC3ED8@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7A2E4C6A-9421-45DD-809D-8DDEFA8A5FF7@lunar-tokyo.net> > On Aug 22, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > >> On Aug 22, 2019, at 2:57 PM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: >> >> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 06:30:10PM +0000, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote: >> ... >>> Only UPS did ? and yes, the ?horror? stories *are* true. They managed to drop >>> the package. Not from 4 inches above ground, but more, because a *steel >>> corner* had a dent! >> >> Hence that old joke: "If being air dropped out of a C-130 into a minefield >> constitutes 'moderately rough handling', what constitutes 'very rough >> handling'?" "Being shipped UPS". > > I'm reminded of a legendary story from a long time ago, of a DEC disk being air-shipped to a customer. RP03? Not sure, but something of that size class. > > The story was that the shipping company hadn't strapped it down properly, so when the plane applied takeoff power, the drive slid backwards in the cargo hold. Fast enough to exit the hold through the airplane skin, landing on the runway with a nice bounce. > > The drive was taken back to Maynard, where it was observed that the corner of the frame was badly bent. The techs propped it up on a cinder block and turned the drive on; it worked fine. > > Sure sounds like a fairy tale, but it's a fun one. Friend who owned a larger regional ISP back in the day bought a new Ascend MAX. It shipped UPS and arrived with a perfect boot print on the side of the box. To this day we still make jokes about UPS playing soccer with the package. (Semi-related side story; A few months after installation, the Max started dropping calls on one line card. Ascend refused to RMA it because it passed diagnostics. They went back and forth over for a week or so until one day their sysadmin had enough; He calmly removed the card from the chassis and, with an Ascend tech on speakerphone, smashed the thing to bits with a hammer. ?Oh, it just failed. Won?t pass diagnostics anymore.? He got his RMA number. The replacement card worked without issue for the next several years.) From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 22 15:02:16 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 13:02:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: shortening eBay URLSs (Was: IBM PT-2 In-Reply-To: <235F1F36-FE7F-494B-B4EE-E297670D364F@bu.edu> References: <235F1F36-FE7F-494B-B4EE-E297670D364F@bu.edu> Message-ID: That is useful information. I had explicitly givien the shortest URL that I found to work. Others pointed out that the auction NUMBER is the important piece of informtion, and that the rest to make a URL can be recreated. I suppose that somebody with some time on their hands could/should go through and document more of the fields in the eBay URL structure. On Thu, 22 Aug 2019, Hagstrom, Paul wrote: > One further note on shortening eBay links. A few months ago, eBay made it harder to use links to ended auctions, because it will (sometimes? often?) automatically redirect you to some active auctions that it deems to be similar. > > If you add > > ?nordt=true&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc > > to the end, it will stay on the auction you asked for, even if it has ended. That is: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/283576035281?nordt=true&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc > > should continue to point to this auction (for 90 days or so at least) even after the listing is closed. > > I am not 100% sure that all of the parameters there are required, I only know that it works with rt, nordt, and orig_cvip there. I think I tried removing one or more and it stopped working, but I was not systematic, since, well, I didn't really care. This is what I use in the show notes of the Retrocomputing Roundtable episodes, since odds are good that auctions we talk about there will have ended by the time people try the links. In the context of cctalk, this might be useful for pointing to auctions that are interesting to look at, rather than to auctions that people might want to participate in (since in that latter case, ended auctions stop being interesting). > > -Paul > > >> On Aug 21, 2019, at 11:45 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> >> A small off-topic trivial tip: >> That URL can be reduced to: >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/253997593352 >> >> From 18 lines to 1, losing almost a thousand extraneous chracters. >> (The stuff between itm/ and /auction number is not needed for the URL, nor is the '?' and anything following.) >> While the description before the auction number may be useful, the appended stuff on the end isn't. >> >> >> On Thu, 22 Aug 2019, Benjamin Huntsman via cctalk wrote: >> >>> Anyone know anything about this?? >>> >>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vtg-1980-IBM-PT-2-Computer-Hall-Effect-Magnet-Keyboard-w-Program-Test-Manuals/253997593352?hash=item3b236fb308&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&enc=AQAEAAADIKvsXIZtBqdkfsZsMtzFbFsbX3WcW5fmB%2Fx7ZbaZTyexIhK7W9VLgW%2BiANqra5tcLfLUvucq%2FWwy3JSlehkVi0H0TnsZ9x3lnT4M%2FNK0I23zl7BNBUVztS8698RExuOgZcHXO6v7FRUK%2BTMxC2BELPLkgdRvpFWMB9BbXQW1zu7SXs5SoLJrm3aR8m2kIhrt1aHBf3njB7KD9d70jXprDh7LYyoD6BlZOSFKMSelULNCkR06EvKg4bm5Hlj2kT9gzHObAbHnS4Dy725pF6f0MSjGs0nuvyw3P701B8pbREOy%2BFwa7KynI7p%2F%2FDZSd3NLb8aiylmIQvuIxdA2jf9NKjtjNK4OtBGLPK1kCinJtpG3edC%2Bg3zcgF%2BfyYqsWzgdaR5BLc7eWvxDvDJVYrc9GagH52%2BXriCUj815vLusAYJ4MLBZEf4SumlXsAzKamOO1YHDdAY5XcZWlbJj4%2BbUDYGiVYVey5jbU4p6AR07GBD1NZ9VxtZLXu3%2BrEvbDjS062zfupJn1OsyqxjkXo4S94QVavnXzvg%2BlbUU6igkijeh8tFnsqvD9YBuGYX5BkjQbg7rxOMS9orHpRd28wEsc%2BFknJ71Lz6aCnlB4RpAZbiHprxzhMYckTqYLMAMhmYF92p5vdMYFd9gFN7jkUHKQPMgwjpZpGHrg3UeEEMrPI%2FlDEtwSC0tQBwpD4phxoid3H8rPCpQ3eavJ7UwJUNfXV5k5unTOHwY%2BxT0TTtCCfqMJXqRNMNJkokBK375vCSohk1GexkbC7vvHsB2jB6fh6sjqYTUk4JuzulLDCGrCvZaKBAW9PF8L4%2F%2BDs1N20TwMxOhigqK0TPCWMRT0CPP5lk%2BiqRoJcY0jxsLoQ%2ByEoxMik5Mf5jqeAbaFw6Sg9lXG45gGwa7JiO3kQ7W6reG3LKEMsC2kmLq8q%2BtL%2FvK9aA0gP9in9SIXNZr%2Bh40fnoMD4rS%2Bpki8If24eqaAsA75pDMYNjIgFr85VGRhiHR3g7ymKQ3%2BHET6pyCnW0pt677L6Ggah3K%2BrNu1BSYjdMm3dfFPTWvNtdFRfaBNIweNSEM&checksum=25399759335250961bc599bf4c1a8a1422d41778b250 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Aug 22 15:30:37 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 16:30:37 -0400 Subject: KE11-A craze (Was: Current MANX location) In-Reply-To: <20190822132555.7534F18C0E6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190822132555.7534F18C0E6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 9:26 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > KE11-A Field Maintenance Print Set > > http://manx-docs.org/details.php/1,9358 > > Speaking of KE11-A's, does anyone know what's behind the bidding wars on > recent eBay KE11-A component board listings, e.g.: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/372685033144 No idea. I have those boards in my box of KA11 boards and since they arrived together, I expect I have the right backplane in my BA11-C, but I am also surprised to see such interest in just the boards. Perhaps someone has a broken KE11-A and doesn't want to/is unsure how to do component-level repair. -ethan From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Aug 22 16:42:10 2019 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 22:42:10 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Shipping from Europe to USA In-Reply-To: References: <20190822185734.GB2161@mooli.org.uk> <212B189A-B573-429E-8694-50DD5FEC3ED8@comcast.net> Message-ID: <01RAK127MEL28X070A@beyondthepale.ie> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 9:26 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk > wrote: > > > KE11-A Field Maintenance Print Set > > > http://manx-docs.org/details.php/1,9358 > > > > Speaking of KE11-A's, does anyone know what's behind the bidding wars on > > recent eBay KE11-A component board listings, e.g.: > > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/372685033144 > > No idea. I have those boards in my box of KA11 boards and since they > arrived together, I expect I have the right backplane in my BA11-C, > but I am also surprised to see such interest in just the boards. > Perhaps someone has a broken KE11-A and doesn't want to/is unsure how > to do component-level repair. > Maybe someone had one shipped by UPS and only the backplane survived? Regards, Peter Coghlan > > -ethan > From turing at shaw.ca Thu Aug 22 17:22:22 2019 From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 16:22:22 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Shipping from Europe to USA In-Reply-To: <7A2E4C6A-9421-45DD-809D-8DDEFA8A5FF7@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <20190822185734.GB2161@mooli.org.uk> <212B189A-B573-429E-8694-50DD5FEC3ED8@comcast.net> <7A2E4C6A-9421-45DD-809D-8DDEFA8A5FF7@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: <423599887.164173081.1566512542829.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> I had an interesting experience with UPS - they shipped me a tape library from the U.S. to Canada... when it arrived, the inside was completely trashed. As in, no recognizable components bigger than a credit card. UPS insisted that the condition of the tape library was as they received it for shipment. Until I sent them a photograph of the puncture mark made by THEIR forklift, right through THEIR shipping documents... From: "cctalk" To: "cctalk" Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2019 12:21:39 PM Subject: Re: Shipping from Europe to USA > On Aug 22, 2019, at 2:09 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > >> On Aug 22, 2019, at 2:57 PM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: >> >> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 06:30:10PM +0000, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote: >> ... >>> Only UPS did ? and yes, the ?horror? stories *are* true. They managed to drop >>> the package. Not from 4 inches above ground, but more, because a *steel >>> corner* had a dent! >> >> Hence that old joke: "If being air dropped out of a C-130 into a minefield >> constitutes 'moderately rough handling', what constitutes 'very rough >> handling'?" "Being shipped UPS". > > I'm reminded of a legendary story from a long time ago, of a DEC disk being air-shipped to a customer. RP03? Not sure, but something of that size class. > > The story was that the shipping company hadn't strapped it down properly, so when the plane applied takeoff power, the drive slid backwards in the cargo hold. Fast enough to exit the hold through the airplane skin, landing on the runway with a nice bounce. > > The drive was taken back to Maynard, where it was observed that the corner of the frame was badly bent. The techs propped it up on a cinder block and turned the drive on; it worked fine. > > Sure sounds like a fairy tale, but it's a fun one. Friend who owned a larger regional ISP back in the day bought a new Ascend MAX. It shipped UPS and arrived with a perfect boot print on the side of the box. To this day we still make jokes about UPS playing soccer with the package. (Semi-related side story; A few months after installation, the Max started dropping calls on one line card. Ascend refused to RMA it because it passed diagnostics. They went back and forth over for a week or so until one day their sysadmin had enough; He calmly removed the card from the chassis and, with an Ascend tech on speakerphone, smashed the thing to bits with a hammer. ?Oh, it just failed. Won?t pass diagnostics anymore.? He got his RMA number. The replacement card worked without issue for the next several years.) From connork at connorsdomain.com Thu Aug 22 19:19:19 2019 From: connork at connorsdomain.com (Connor Krukosky) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 20:19:19 -0400 Subject: IBM PT-2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <80bc049f-9262-f4cb-d2d4-244c1cf711d8@connorsdomain.com> Yea the PT-2 was a CE tool used for TONS of devices, I have a write-up on IBM storage from the 3370 days and the PT-2 was mentioned for diagnostics on the 3370, even remotely to a customer site over landline I would suppose. So a pretty neat thing but this and all later devices had tapes you'd run on them to do the diagnostic packages. So there are tons of these devices and very few tapes floating around, even within IBM I have only seen a few tapes floating around anymore but a few of these machines still sit tucked away in corners... Tapes get lost over time, thrown out, whatever, assets and physical machines stick around. I do know one of the types of tapes ran to run some kind of test was a "SCAM" it was called, someone I talked to said he liked to joke it ran "SCAM"s at IBM. I also bet there was tons of internal documentations because I assume the programs don't just give out straight answers to problems, probably give ref codes and things that you'd need documentation or knowledge to know what is failing or whats doing what. So sadly these things are quite the mystery unless your a CE who kept all of their stuff. That is what I know of anyway from my perspective. I probably know 0.1% what some others know so take everything with a grain of salt :) -Connor K On 8/22/2019 08:12, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > I can confirm that this is a CE tool.? From what I remember they where > used mainly by CEs in the GSD division.? The large grey lump to the > left of the PT-2 is a channel adapter used for monitoring 370 > channels.? The black box on the lower right is a coax switch and not > part of a PT-2.? They where mainly used for monitoring communication > lines and at the time when I saw one in use for that, 40 years ago, it > had the advantage of being able to decode the Bisync or SDLC protocol > right on the machine rather than having to send the data off to have > it analyzed.? I recall that there was an attachment with multiple > types of connectors for communication lines along with indicator > lights for important signals.? Missing from the pictures is the > external monitor and tape cartridges that contained the programs for > the machine. There was also a later version of this machine that had a > built in LCD display. > > Paul. > > On 2019-08-22 12:37 a.m., William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: >> I think this was a CE tool used with machines with the UC processor. >> My info is pretty sketchy... >> >> -- >> Will >> >> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 11:29 PM Benjamin Huntsman via cctalk >> wrote: >>> Anyone know anything about this?? >>> >>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vtg-1980-IBM-PT-2-Computer-Hall-Effect-Magnet-Keyboard-w-Program-Test-Manuals/253997593352?hash=item3b236fb308&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&enc=AQAEAAADIKvsXIZtBqdkfsZsMtzFbFsbX3WcW5fmB%2Fx7ZbaZTyexIhK7W9VLgW%2BiANqra5tcLfLUvucq%2FWwy3JSlehkVi0H0TnsZ9x3lnT4M%2FNK0I23zl7BNBUVztS8698RExuOgZcHXO6v7FRUK%2BTMxC2BELPLkgdRvpFWMB9BbXQW1zu7SXs5SoLJrm3aR8m2kIhrt1aHBf3njB7KD9d70jXprDh7LYyoD6BlZOSFKMSelULNCkR06EvKg4bm5Hlj2kT9gzHObAbHnS4Dy725pF6f0MSjGs0nuvyw3P701B8pbREOy%2BFwa7KynI7p%2F%2FDZSd3NLb8aiylmIQvuIxdA2jf9NKjtjNK4OtBGLPK1kCinJtpG3edC%2Bg3zcgF%2BfyYqsWzgdaR5BLc7eWvxDvDJVYrc9GagH52%2BXriCUj815vLusAYJ4MLBZEf4SumlXsAzKamOO1YHDdAY5XcZWlbJj4%2BbUDYGiVYVey5jbU4p6AR07GBD1NZ9VxtZLXu3%2BrEvbDjS062zfupJn1OsyqxjkXo4S94QVavnXzvg%2BlbUU6igkijeh8tFnsqvD9YBuGYX5BkjQbg7rxOMS9orHpRd28wEsc%2BFknJ71Lz6aCnlB4RpAZbiHprxzhMYckTqYLMAMhmYF92p5vdMYFd9gFN7jkUHKQPMgwjpZpGHrg3UeEEMrPI%2FlDEtwSC0tQBwpD4phxoid3H8rPCpQ3eavJ7UwJUNfXV5k5unTOHwY%2BxT0TTtCCfqMJXqRNMNJkokBK375vCSohk1GexkbC7vvHsB2jB6fh6sjqYTUk4JuzulLDCGrCvZaKBAW9PF8L4%2F%2BDs1N20TwMxOhigqK0TPCWMRT0CPP5lk%2BiqRoJcY0jxsLoQ%2ByEoxMik5Mf5jqeAbaFw6Sg9lXG45gGwa7JiO3kQ7W6reG3LKEMsC2kmLq8q%2BtL%2FvK9aA0gP9in9SIXNZr%2Bh40fnoMD4rS%2Bpki8If24eqaAsA75pDMYNjIgFr85VGRhiHR3g7ymKQ3%2BHET6pyCnW0pt677L6Ggah3K%2BrNu1BSYjdMm3dfFPTWvNtdFRfaBNIweNSEM&checksum=25399759335250961bc599bf4c1a8a1422d41778b250 >>> >>> >>> >>> > From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Aug 22 20:23:51 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 20:23:51 -0500 Subject: Shipping from Europe to USA In-Reply-To: <212B189A-B573-429E-8694-50DD5FEC3ED8@comcast.net> References: <20190822185734.GB2161@mooli.org.uk> <212B189A-B573-429E-8694-50DD5FEC3ED8@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5D5F4027.8000903@pico-systems.com> On 08/22/2019 02:09 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: Many ages ago, I worked for a company that made 12-bit computers for radiation treatment planning. they palleted a computer and shipped it to Holland for a trade show. At the arrival airport, somebody pushed it out of the cargo bay with no conveyor belt below, and it fell something like 30 feet to the ground. the pallet was reduced to splinters, and the case of the machine was seriously MASHED. The techs who were going to set it up didn't think it had any chance of working, but they pulled all the boards, beat on the case some to straighten it, put the boards back in, and it fired right up! The machine was later returned to the US and was used as a "test mule". Jon From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Aug 22 21:43:42 2019 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 19:43:42 -0700 Subject: Shipping from Europe to USA In-Reply-To: <5D5F4027.8000903@pico-systems.com> References: <20190822185734.GB2161@mooli.org.uk> <212B189A-B573-429E-8694-50DD5FEC3ED8@comcast.net> <5D5F4027.8000903@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <74c2782e-e94e-45f4-7ed3-c21e6f5ae66f@jwsss.com> On 8/22/2019 6:23 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > The machine was later returned to the US and was used as a > "test mule". At Microdata, we were touring the country on a mission to fix some bugs that customers were having, and happened to? be in Dallas when a problem with one of a customers drives was serious enough we had to pull and replace it. The drive was shipped counter to counter same day on Delta.? We went to the Delta Freight @ the airport to pick it up, and the guy on duty went back to get it after some delay.? I think we were the first ones to get there for that flight, and he was absent for a while, but some yelling got his attention. Anyway we go to the dock which is at the front of this 30' long bay which went out the other end, and waited.? He was told it was heavy, crated, and needed a hand truck.? Even offered ours. After about 5 min we here this crash, then another, at about a 5 or so second rep.? After about 5, the end of a crate about the right size to be ours appeared.? It was tilted up, and then fell out upside down as the guy flipped it over again. He had gotten in about 10 of those flips before we used some salty language and told him to stop and we went with our handtruck. Made sure he saw the Fragile stickers all over and ignore them. Reported him to the 800# and called in to several places the next day. Anyway it worked fine. Also on the thread topic, PM'ed Steve.? I quoted a shipment to Latvia 2 days ago, breathtakingly expensive.? It was the same size as his parcel. thanks JIm From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Thu Aug 22 12:47:28 2019 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 12:47:28 -0500 Subject: bit-slice and microcode discussion list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8f3c4576-8074-976d-d25e-ba938da3a673@figureeightbrewing.com> On 8/22/19 12:16 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On another mailing list, someone asked if there was any list specifically > about bit-slice design and microcoding. I don't know of one, so I've > created a new mailing list specifically for those topics: > > http://lists.brouhaha.com/mailman/listinfo/bit-slicers > > The intent is for the list to cover technical discussion of bit-slice > hardware design and/or microcoding. In other words, discussion of > microcoding that doesn't use bit-slice hardware is fine. > On a possible related note, I am looking for information on converting CISC instructions to VLIW RISC. --tnx --tom From paulp1 at gmail.com Thu Aug 22 13:13:25 2019 From: paulp1 at gmail.com (Paul Popelka) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 11:13:25 -0700 Subject: KE11-A craze (Was: Current MANX location) Message-ID: <8CA94D88-5B56-4884-B690-64D5FE8AFBBE@gmail.com> I was one of the bidders. I have a KE11 backplane and it is populated. I just wanted some spare boards. You don't see these boards that often. I am hoping that a backplane would appear too. The seller seems to have some early pdp11 backplanes. Paul >> KE11-A Field Maintenance Print Set > http://manx-docs.org/details.php/1,9358 >Speaking of KE11-A's, does anyone know what's behind the bidding wars on recent eBay >KE11-A >component board listings, e.g.: https://www.ebay.com/itm/372685033144 > AFAIK, the boards (a complete set is an M7210, M7211, M827, and two M234's) are pretty useless > > without the custom backplane, so do some people have such, or do they not know they need the > > backplane, or what? From pmackinlay at hotmail.com Fri Aug 23 02:05:28 2019 From: pmackinlay at hotmail.com (Patrick Mackinlay) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 07:05:28 +0000 Subject: bit-slice and microcode discussion list In-Reply-To: <8f3c4576-8074-976d-d25e-ba938da3a673@figureeightbrewing.com> References: , <8f3c4576-8074-976d-d25e-ba938da3a673@figureeightbrewing.com> Message-ID: Not precisely CISC to VLIW RISC, but in my opinion very cool and somewhat related. https://gamozolabs.github.io/fuzzing/2018/10/14/vectorized_emulation.html ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Tom Uban via cctalk Sent: Friday, August 23, 2019 12:47:28 AM To: Eric Smith ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: bit-slice and microcode discussion list On 8/22/19 12:16 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On another mailing list, someone asked if there was any list specifically > about bit-slice design and microcoding. I don't know of one, so I've > created a new mailing list specifically for those topics: > > http://lists.brouhaha.com/mailman/listinfo/bit-slicers > > The intent is for the list to cover technical discussion of bit-slice > hardware design and/or microcoding. In other words, discussion of > microcoding that doesn't use bit-slice hardware is fine. > On a possible related note, I am looking for information on converting CISC instructions to VLIW RISC. --tnx --tom From tosteve at yahoo.com Fri Aug 23 03:19:18 2019 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 08:19:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Update: Shipping 50 lb computer from Zell am See, Austria to CA. References: <1166957306.807039.1566548358472.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1166957306.807039.1566548358472@mail.yahoo.com> Well, I knew the computer, just not the city. It's Zell am See, a small town in western Autria, far from everywhere it seems. The computer is a Datapoint 2200 - 50lbs, 10x19x20 inches. I want to get it shipped to Calfornia, where I live. The cheapest option is to just use local Austria mail, but max dimensions are 60x60x100cm, or 23.5x23.5x40 inches. That would leave just 2-inches on each of two sides for padding. Best option - remove the plastic cover and mail it separately. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the entire bottom of the computer seems to be a solid piece of metal, like the Apple III = very strudy. The back is a giant metal heat sink. I think it's do-able, do you? Steve. From abuse at cabal.org.uk Fri Aug 23 07:10:09 2019 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 14:10:09 +0200 Subject: bit-slice and microcode discussion list In-Reply-To: <8f3c4576-8074-976d-d25e-ba938da3a673@figureeightbrewing.com> References: <8f3c4576-8074-976d-d25e-ba938da3a673@figureeightbrewing.com> Message-ID: <20190823121008.GA24897@mooli.org.uk> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 12:47:28PM -0500, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: [...] > On a possible related note, I am looking for information on converting CISC > instructions to VLIW RISC. Do you mean the theoretical basis, or implementing it? And is this ahead-of-time ("I want to run *this* binary"), or just-in-time ("I want to run *any* binary, including self-modifying code")? It's basically a compiler pipeline: deserialise the input code into an AST, then serialise it into output code. It's just that the input code is actual machine code rather than human-ented text. Various real-world implementations exist. QEMU, for example. VMWare also does it for ring-0 code if the host lacks VT-x. UAE definitely does it, and possiblt so does MAME. As you can see, it's basically a solved problem as far as computer science is concerned. If you have a copy of the Dragon Book to hand, you may as well give it a gander. The general concepts are timeless, but the actual nitty-gritty is only useful if you are still living in the 1970s, so don't spend too much time in the details of the algorithms because modern machines are so different that many of the book's design assumptions are now invalidated. (I base this opinion on my 1986 edition, although the TOC I've seen for the 2006 edition suggests that it's been dragged kicking and screaming into the 1990s.) There are *loads* of academic papers that you will have to wade through to advance from the Dragon Book's description of a kinder era to modern compiler design. Some of it remains an unsolved problem. You can see why the Dragon Book handwaves over the hard bits. To actually implement something that performs well and will actually be finished before your new VLIW RISC hardware is obsolete, I recommend you look at reusing existing compilers rather than implemting your own. The daddy of backends is LLVM. Unless your VLIW RISC is already supported, you get to learn how to implement an LLVM backend. It seems to be a common undergraduate assignment to implement an LLVM backend for an arbitrary RISC CPU (often MIPS) so you should be able to find myriad terrible implementations on GitHub to draw inspiration from. Another possibility is QEMU's TCG. I wasn't really aware of it until I did a quick search when compising this response, but I like what I see and now want to look much closer at it. Once you've done that, you need to decompile your CISC code into your chosen backend's IR. This involves a lot of tedious gruntwork, but is otherwise not that difficult. Have fun! From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Aug 23 10:58:50 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 10:58:50 -0500 Subject: bit-slice and microcode discussion list In-Reply-To: <8f3c4576-8074-976d-d25e-ba938da3a673@figureeightbrewing.com> References: <8f3c4576-8074-976d-d25e-ba938da3a673@figureeightbrewing.com> Message-ID: <5D600D3A.3030401@pico-systems.com> On 08/22/2019 12:47 PM, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: > On 8/22/19 12:16 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: >> On another mailing list, someone asked if there was any list specifically >> about bit-slice design and microcoding. I don't know of one, so I've >> created a new mailing list specifically for those topics: >> >> http://lists.brouhaha.com/mailman/listinfo/bit-slicers >> >> The intent is for the list to cover technical discussion of bit-slice >> hardware design and/or microcoding. In other words, discussion of >> microcoding that doesn't use bit-slice hardware is fine. >> > On a possible related note, I am looking for information on converting > CISC instructions to VLIW RISC. > > Wow, I think that ends up looking like a compiler, or at least the optimizing back end part of a compiler. I worked a bit with a Trace Multiflow, and their optimizing back end was VERY slow, which I assume means it was a complex task to reorder all the atomic operations and pack into the long instruction words for best throughput. I think it might end up looking a bit like the optimizers that were used on drum memory computers back in the dark ages. Jon From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Aug 23 12:47:52 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 13:47:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: bit-slice and microcode discussion list Message-ID: <20190823174752.8A01418C0E8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jon Elson >> On 08/22/2019 12:47 PM, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: >> On a possible related note, I am looking for information on converting >> CISC instructions to VLIW RISC. > I think it might end up looking a bit like the optimizers that were > used on drum memory computers back in the dark ages. I dunno; those were all about picking _addresses_ for instructions, such that the next instruction was coming up to the heads as the last one completed. The _order_ of execution wasn't changed, there was no issue of contention for computing elements, etc - i.e. all the things ones think of a CISC->VLIW translation as doing. Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Aug 23 13:00:15 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 14:00:15 -0400 Subject: bit-slice and microcode discussion list In-Reply-To: <20190823174752.8A01418C0E8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190823174752.8A01418C0E8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <9B010A9F-790F-49BB-820E-BE8189ABD3DD@comcast.net> > On Aug 23, 2019, at 1:47 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Jon Elson > >>> On 08/22/2019 12:47 PM, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: > >>> On a possible related note, I am looking for information on converting >>> CISC instructions to VLIW RISC. > >> I think it might end up looking a bit like the optimizers that were >> used on drum memory computers back in the dark ages. > > I dunno; those were all about picking _addresses_ for instructions, such > that the next instruction was coming up to the heads as the last one > completed. > > The _order_ of execution wasn't changed, there was no issue of contention > for computing elements, etc - i.e. all the things ones think of a > CISC->VLIW translation as doing. Instruction ordering (instruction scheduling) is as old as the CDC 6600, though then it was often done by the programmer. An early example of that conversion is the work done at DEC for "just in time" conversion of VAX instructions to MIPS, and later to Alpha. I wonder if their compiler technology was involved in that. It wouldn't surprise me. The Alpha "assembler" was actually the compiler back end, and as a result you could ask it to optimize your assembly programs. That was an interesting way to get a feel for what transformations of the program would be useful given the parallelism in that architecture. paul From Rice43 at btinternet.com Fri Aug 23 13:22:21 2019 From: Rice43 at btinternet.com (Joshua Rice) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 19:22:21 +0100 Subject: Update: Shipping 50 lb computer from Zell am See, Austria to CA. In-Reply-To: <1166957306.807039.1566548358472@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1166957306.807039.1566548358472.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1166957306.807039.1566548358472@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8B920806-466D-4F38-919B-117892074B99@btinternet.com> I?ve had/am having a similar sized machine shipped from Bulgaria to the UK, twice. Board first, chassis second. It cost me roughly ?60 all in. I expect a machine taking that long a journey would be best done by ocean frieght. It?ll take longer than air mail, but a transatlantic flight with a machine that weight will cost a lot. If you have to get it air mailed, split it up into seperate loads. Shipping it in parts will cost less than one lot, and also reduce the risk of the whole lot being lost in the post. if you can, it?s probably more cost-effective to ship it in parts than as one whole lump. > On Aug 23, 2019, at 9:19 AM, steven stengel via cctalk wrote: > > Well, I knew the computer, just not the city. > > It's Zell am See, a small town in western Autria, far from everywhere it seems. > > The computer is a Datapoint 2200 - 50lbs, 10x19x20 inches. > > I want to get it shipped to Calfornia, where I live. > > The cheapest option is to just use local Austria mail, but max dimensions are 60x60x100cm, or > 23.5x23.5x40 inches. That would leave just 2-inches on each of two sides for padding. > > Best option - remove the plastic cover and mail it separately. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the entire bottom of the computer seems to be a solid piece of metal, like the Apple III = very strudy. The back is a giant metal heat sink. > > I think it's do-able, do you? > > Steve. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Aug 23 13:34:32 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 14:34:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: KE11-A craze (Was: Current MANX location) Message-ID: <20190823183432.59A7418C0E8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ethan Dicks >> Speaking of KE11-A's, does anyone know what's behind the bidding wars >> on recent eBay KE11-A component board listings, e.g.: >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/372685033144 > Perhaps someone has a broken KE11-A Must be two such people, though - I was neither of the top two bidders. Odd for there to be so much interest in them. Noel From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Aug 23 14:03:37 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 15:03:37 -0400 Subject: KE11-A craze (Was: Current MANX location) In-Reply-To: <20190823183432.59A7418C0E8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190823183432.59A7418C0E8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 2:34 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> Speaking of KE11-A's, does anyone know what's behind the bidding wars > >> on recent eBay KE11-A component board listings, e.g.: > >> > >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/372685033144 > > Must be two such people, though - I was neither of the top two bidders. > Odd for there to be so much interest in them. I have not tried testing mine and I was not one of the bidders. They are so uncommon that I never expected the boards to come up for auction so I haven't been looking for them. I have a long way to go before I'm likely to even take a stab at them - like probably not this year. The goal is to get a working KA11 by 2022 though. I am still clearing the queue to make the KA11 a focus for 2020 or 2021. -ethan From john at ziaspace.com Fri Aug 23 14:30:24 2019 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 19:30:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Raspberry Pi write cycles Message-ID: > But then it turned out not to be the load at all. No matter what I ran > on that Pi, it would corrupt its SD cards in a matter of weeks (the > symptom was that the fourth bit of some bytes would just stick on). I > assume it was just something broken in the Pi itself. You can simply root off of a USB disk by changing the "root=" parameter in cmdline.txt on the FAT partition on your SD card. Since the card won't otherwise be used unless you mount it if you do this, your next card should last forever. I've got a Suptronics x830 board and enclosure with an 8 TB drive which boots this way. Any Pi processor newer than the original ARM1176JZ should run NetBSD pretty well. My 900 MHz Pi 2 runs NetBSD/vax almost as fast as a VAXstation 4000/30 (VLC), which is about 5 VUPS. An original Pi or Pi Zero should be able to emulate a VAX at least as fast as an 11/780. One issue with CPU intensive things on Raspberry Pis is that even if your power supply provides plenty of current, the slightest drop in voltage can cause throttling. If you know your power supply is good but see a lightning symbol anyway, add "avoid_warnings=2" to config.txt on your SD card's FAT partition. John From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri Aug 23 14:44:31 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 12:44:31 -0700 Subject: Raspberry Pi write cycles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <83E4641D-2E49-429A-9D20-1D48FD8C3170@avanthar.com> > On Aug 23, 2019, at 12:30 PM, John Klos via cctalk wrote: > > Any Pi processor newer than the original ARM1176JZ should run NetBSD pretty well. My 900 MHz Pi 2 runs NetBSD/vax almost as fast as a VAXstation 4000/30 (VLC), which is about 5 VUPS. An original Pi or Pi Zero should be able to emulate a VAX at least as fast as an 11/780. When I was using an RPi2 for VAX emulation, I showed as having about 1.6 VUPS under OpenVMS 7.3. I?ve since moved to a VMware cluster for my VAX emulation needs. It can beat my fastest VAX. I use RPi3?s for PDP-10 and DPS-8 emulation, I haven?t tried them for VAX emulation. I would like to try a RPi4 for VAX emulation. Zane From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 23 15:52:25 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 14:52:25 -0600 Subject: bit-slice and microcode discussion list In-Reply-To: <9B010A9F-790F-49BB-820E-BE8189ABD3DD@comcast.net> References: <20190823174752.8A01418C0E8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9B010A9F-790F-49BB-820E-BE8189ABD3DD@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 8/23/2019 12:00 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Aug 23, 2019, at 1:47 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> >>> From: Jon Elson >> >>>> On 08/22/2019 12:47 PM, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: >> >>>> On a possible related note, I am looking for information on converting >>>> CISC instructions to VLIW RISC. >> >>> I think it might end up looking a bit like the optimizers that were >>> used on drum memory computers back in the dark ages. >> >> I dunno; those were all about picking _addresses_ for instructions, such >> that the next instruction was coming up to the heads as the last one >> completed. >> >> The _order_ of execution wasn't changed, there was no issue of contention >> for computing elements, etc - i.e. all the things ones think of a >> CISC->VLIW translation as doing. > > Instruction ordering (instruction scheduling) is as old as the CDC 6600, though then it was often done by the programmer. > > An early example of that conversion is the work done at DEC for "just in time" conversion of VAX instructions to MIPS, and later to Alpha. I wonder if their compiler technology was involved in that. It wouldn't surprise me. The Alpha "assembler" was actually the compiler back end, and as a result you could ask it to optimize your assembly programs. That was an interesting way to get a feel for what transformations of the program would be useful given the parallelism in that architecture. > > paul Why bother is my view. The problem is Three fold, a) The hardware people keep changing the internal details. b) A good compiler can see the the original program structure and optimize for that. c) The flat memory model as from FORTRAN or LISP where variables are random over the entire memory space scrambles your cache. With that said if you can make the optimization in defined some sort of MACRO format changing parameters would be simple and be effective unseen changes. Kind of the the early Compiler Compilers. I see RISC as emulation of the HARVARD memory model. A Harvard model would not take much change in programing other than not having a "SMALL" mode. Two 32 bit wide buses (data) (program) could be faster as external memory is more drum like with filling of caches rather than random memory than one large data path doing everything. I still favor the CLASSIC instruction set model. OP:AC:IX:OFFSET Core Memory made the machines slow with the memory restore cycle, Giving rise to CSIC like the PDP 11 to give a better use of that dead cycle. RISC is only fast because of the PAGE cycle of dynamic memory at the time. Too bad everything is all 8/16/32/64+ computing or say a 36 bit classic style cpu design could run quite effective at a few GHZ. Ben. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Aug 23 16:37:34 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 14:37:34 -0700 Subject: bit-slice and microcode discussion list In-Reply-To: References: <8f3c4576-8074-976d-d25e-ba938da3a673@figureeightbrewing.com> Message-ID: <41981356-42fb-bdb7-5c7f-af7ee9d776c2@bitsavers.org> > On a possible related note, I am looking for information on converting > CISC instructions to VLIW RISC. I'm impressed, cctlk went completely off the rails on the first reply to the list announcement, and has stayed there. At least the list itself is staying on topic. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Aug 23 16:58:00 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 21:58:00 +0000 Subject: bit-slice and microcode discussion list In-Reply-To: <41981356-42fb-bdb7-5c7f-af7ee9d776c2@bitsavers.org> References: <8f3c4576-8074-976d-d25e-ba938da3a673@figureeightbrewing.com> , <41981356-42fb-bdb7-5c7f-af7ee9d776c2@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: The concepts of bitslice coding and optimizing of it have always interested me. I'm not sure about the correlation to "CISC to VLIW RISC". Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Al Kossow via cctalk Sent: Friday, August 23, 2019 2:37 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: bit-slice and microcode discussion list > On a possible related note, I am looking for information on converting > CISC instructions to VLIW RISC. I'm impressed, cctlk went completely off the rails on the first reply to the list announcement, and has stayed there. At least the list itself is staying on topic. From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Aug 23 21:05:14 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 21:05:14 -0500 Subject: bit-slice and microcode discussion list In-Reply-To: <20190823174752.8A01418C0E8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190823174752.8A01418C0E8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5D609B5A.6060200@pico-systems.com> On 08/23/2019 12:47 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Jon Elson > > >> On 08/22/2019 12:47 PM, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: > > >> On a possible related note, I am looking for information on converting > >> CISC instructions to VLIW RISC. > > > I think it might end up looking a bit like the optimizers that were > > used on drum memory computers back in the dark ages. > > I dunno; those were all about picking _addresses_ for instructions, such > that the next instruction was coming up to the heads as the last one > completed. > > Right, but the idea is to schedule memory reads way in advance of when the datum is required for a calculation. So, the load from memory to register is moved way up in the program, and the use of the register is much later to allow for the memory latency. Yes, it is not exactly like drum memory computers, but you are still scheduling things for when they can be done without causing a stall. Jon From lars at nocrew.org Sat Aug 24 02:16:18 2019 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 07:16:18 +0000 Subject: Raspberry Pi write cycles In-Reply-To: <83E4641D-2E49-429A-9D20-1D48FD8C3170@avanthar.com> (Zane Healy via cctalk's message of "Fri, 23 Aug 2019 12:44:31 -0700") References: <83E4641D-2E49-429A-9D20-1D48FD8C3170@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <7wr25bf2yl.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Zane Healy wrote: > I use RPi3?s for PDP-10 and DPS-8 emulation, I haven?t tried them for > VAX emulation. I would like to try a RPi4 for VAX emulation. I have an RPi4 running ITS. I attached a fast USB3 memory rather than running off the SD card. For the full ITS rebuild from scratch it takes two hours rather, compared to one hour on my Core i7 2.4 GHz laptop. An RPi2 with slow SD card takes around 24 hours! From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Sat Aug 24 02:18:03 2019 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 08:18:03 +0100 Subject: Too many DEC binders Message-ID: <87tva73uc4.fsf@gromit.rhwyd.co.uk> I have a full book case of DEC binders, each containing one or more manuals. I went through the lot of it this evening and checked to see what was on bitsavers. It seems an awful lot of it is not available. I cannot bring myself to dispose of any of it until it is digitised, but keeping hold of this much paper is not practical for me. I'm going to try to scan as much as I can. The full list of what I have is available at the link below. It is mostly mid 1980's VAX/VMS stuff.. If anyone would like one of the manuals for the cost of shipping, I'd gladly send it over to you. http://aaronsplace.co.uk/dec-manuals.html *** If there is anything you consider a priority in terms of being scanned, please let me know and I'll try to do it sooner, rather than later. *** Finally, I'd like to mention that these manuals came from a friend, Marc, who passed away early last year. Marc used to be somewhat active on this list (more so the #classiccmp IRC channel). A friend of Marc will be participating in a walk for the Campaign Against Living Miserably (CALM) charity. If anyone is willing to donate (even a small amount), it would mean a lot to me. CALM is a charity supporting men who suffer from depression - one of the leading killers of men under 45 in the UK. https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/losthourswalk2019inmemoryofmarc Many thanks, Aaron From kevin.bowling at kev009.com Sat Aug 24 03:29:51 2019 From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 01:29:51 -0700 Subject: Update: Shipping 50 lb computer from Zell am See, Austria to CA. In-Reply-To: <1166957306.807039.1566548358472@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1166957306.807039.1566548358472.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1166957306.807039.1566548358472@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I had a Siemens Nixdorf MIPS system shipped from Germany using their post office. It took forever and was fairly banged up but made it to the US. On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 1:19 AM steven stengel via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Well, I knew the computer, just not the city. > > It's Zell am See, a small town in western Autria, far from everywhere it > seems. > > The computer is a Datapoint 2200 - 50lbs, 10x19x20 inches. > > I want to get it shipped to Calfornia, where I live. > > The cheapest option is to just use local Austria mail, but max dimensions > are 60x60x100cm, or > 23.5x23.5x40 inches. That would leave just 2-inches on each of two sides > for padding. > > Best option - remove the plastic cover and mail it separately. Correct me > if I'm wrong, but the entire bottom of the computer seems to be a solid > piece of metal, like the Apple III = very strudy. The back is a giant metal > heat sink. > > I think it's do-able, do you? > > Steve. > From matt at 9track.net Sat Aug 24 04:52:33 2019 From: matt at 9track.net (Matt Burke) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 10:52:33 +0100 Subject: Too many DEC binders In-Reply-To: <87tva73uc4.fsf@gromit.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87tva73uc4.fsf@gromit.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <4932cb21-43c5-eee8-e54e-3772bee694ce@9track.net> On 24/08/2019 08:18, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: > I'm going to try to scan as much as I can. The full list of what I have > is available at the link below. It is mostly mid 1980's VAX/VMS > stuff.. If anyone would like one of the manuals for the cost of > shipping, I'd gladly send it over to you. > > http://aaronsplace.co.uk/dec-manuals.html > I seem to have PDFs for quite a lot of the manuals you have listed. I think I got these on a CD from a friend several years ago and I'd always assumed they were online somewhere. Maybe they were and have since disappeared. I'll get these uploaded once I've sorted out what's needed. >From your list these are the ones which I don't have a PDF for: AA-D113C-TE?? VAX-11 SORT / MERGE User's Guide AA-H501B-TC?? DECnet/E Network Programming in BASIC-PLUS and BASIC-PLUS-2 AA-H503B-TC?? DECnet/E Network Programming in COBOL AA-H504B-TC?? DECnet/E Guide to User Utilities AA-H505B-TC?? DECnet/E System Manager's Guide AA-J055D-TK?? Introduction to DECnet Phase IV AA-JF88A-TE?? VAX / VMS Release Notes, Version 4.5 AA-K714A-TC?? DECnet/E Network Installation Guide AA-KX21A-TE?? VAX / VMS Supplemental Information, Version 4.7 AA-KX22A-TE?? LAT / VMS Management Guide AA-L265A-TC?? DECnet/E Network Programming in MACRO-11 AA-L266A-TC?? DECnet/E Network Programming in FORTRAN AA-M269B-TC?? DECnet/E Release Notes AA-M539A-TE?? VAX / VMS Magnetic Tape User Guide AA-Y510B-TE?? Guide to VAX / VMS System Security AA-Z104C-TE?? VAX / VMS Master Index AA-Z501C-TE?? VAX / VMS System Services Reference Manual AA-Z501C-TE?? VAX / VMS Run-Time Library Routines Reference Manual AA-Z505C-TE?? Part II Run-Time Library Routines AA-Z601C-TE?? VAX / VMS I/O User's Reference Manual: Part II AD-L034A-26?? VAX / VMS System Dispatch July 1985 AD-L034A-27?? VAX / VMS System Dispatch September 1985 AD-L034A-28?? VAX / VMS System Dispatch November 1985 AD-L034A-29?? VAX / VMS System Dispatch January 1986 AD-L034A-30?? VAX / VMS System Dispatch March 1986 AD-L034A-32?? VAX / VMS System Dispatch July 1986 AD-LO34A-31?? VAX / VMS System Dispatch May 1986 AI-T512B-TE?? Guide to Networking on VAX / VMS AI-Y516A-TE?? VAX / VMS Mini-Reference AI-Y517A-TE?? VAX / VMS User's Manual I'm not sure about these two though. I have a PDF for AI-Y502B-TE and AI-Y508B-TE with the same titles. Is the part number you listed correct? AI-T502B-TE?? Guide to Text Processing on VAX / VMS AI-T508B-TE?? Guide to VAX / VMS File Applications Matt From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Sat Aug 24 05:12:28 2019 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 11:12:28 +0100 Subject: Too many DEC binders In-Reply-To: <4932cb21-43c5-eee8-e54e-3772bee694ce@9track.net> References: <87tva73uc4.fsf@gromit.rhwyd.co.uk> <4932cb21-43c5-eee8-e54e-3772bee694ce@9track.net> Message-ID: <87sgpq50tv.fsf@gromit.rhwyd.co.uk> > On 24/08/2019 08:18, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: >> I'm going to try to scan as much as I can. The full list of what I have >> is available at the link below. It is mostly mid 1980's VAX/VMS >> stuff.. If anyone would like one of the manuals for the cost of >> shipping, I'd gladly send it over to you. >> >> http://aaronsplace.co.uk/dec-manuals.html >> > I seem to have PDFs for quite a lot of the manuals you have listed. I > think I got these on a CD from a friend several years ago and I'd always > assumed they were online somewhere. Maybe they were and have since > disappeared. I'll get these uploaded once I've sorted out what's needed. > > From your list these are the ones which I don't have a PDF for: > > AA-D113C-TE VAX-11 SORT / MERGE User's Guide > AA-H501B-TC DECnet/E Network Programming in BASIC-PLUS and BASIC-PLUS-2 > AA-H503B-TC DECnet/E Network Programming in COBOL > AA-H504B-TC DECnet/E Guide to User Utilities > AA-H505B-TC DECnet/E System Manager's Guide > AA-J055D-TK Introduction to DECnet Phase IV > AA-JF88A-TE VAX / VMS Release Notes, Version 4.5 > AA-K714A-TC DECnet/E Network Installation Guide > AA-KX21A-TE VAX / VMS Supplemental Information, Version 4.7 > AA-KX22A-TE LAT / VMS Management Guide > AA-L265A-TC DECnet/E Network Programming in MACRO-11 > AA-L266A-TC DECnet/E Network Programming in FORTRAN > AA-M269B-TC DECnet/E Release Notes > AA-M539A-TE VAX / VMS Magnetic Tape User Guide > AA-Y510B-TE Guide to VAX / VMS System Security > AA-Z104C-TE VAX / VMS Master Index > AA-Z501C-TE VAX / VMS System Services Reference Manual > AA-Z501C-TE VAX / VMS Run-Time Library Routines Reference Manual > AA-Z505C-TE Part II Run-Time Library Routines > AA-Z601C-TE VAX / VMS I/O User's Reference Manual: Part II > AD-L034A-26 VAX / VMS System Dispatch July 1985 > AD-L034A-27 VAX / VMS System Dispatch September 1985 > AD-L034A-28 VAX / VMS System Dispatch November 1985 > AD-L034A-29 VAX / VMS System Dispatch January 1986 > AD-L034A-30 VAX / VMS System Dispatch March 1986 > AD-L034A-32 VAX / VMS System Dispatch July 1986 > AD-LO34A-31 VAX / VMS System Dispatch May 1986 > AI-T512B-TE Guide to Networking on VAX / VMS > AI-Y516A-TE VAX / VMS Mini-Reference > AI-Y517A-TE VAX / VMS User's Manual > > I'm not sure about these two though. I have a PDF for AI-Y502B-TE and > AI-Y508B-TE with the same titles. Is the part number you listed correct? > > AI-T502B-TE Guide to Text Processing on VAX / VMS > AI-T508B-TE Guide to VAX / VMS File Applications > > > Matt Hi Matt, This certainly reduces the size of the problem quite a bit. Can we try and get those online some how? I will check T502B-TE and T508B-TE tonight. Perhaps they are slightly different versions... Y and T are very close together though. Thanks, Aaron From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Aug 24 12:03:58 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 10:03:58 -0700 Subject: Too many DEC binders In-Reply-To: <87tva73uc4.fsf@gromit.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87tva73uc4.fsf@gromit.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <705481e9-feac-a2dd-a10d-02a39d11f366@bitsavers.org> On 8/24/19 12:18 AM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: > I have a full book case of DEC binders, each containing one or more > manuals. I went through the lot of it this evening and checked to see > what was on bitsavers. It seems an awful lot of it is not available. here is a list of the manuals I have scanned but not pdf'ed ./AA/aa-bt74b-th_pos_tool_kit_3.0_reference_manual_nov85.tar ./AA/aa-gh98b-te_guide_to_vax_notes.tar ./AA/aa-gr93a-te_using_the_VAX_information_architecture_jan86.tar ./AA/aa-hs82b-te_vax_psi_mgmt_guide.tar ./AA/aa-jf60d-te_vms_sw_inst_guide_scriptprinters.tar ./AA/aa-jf62c-te_vms_mgmt_users_guide_scriptprinters.tar ./AA/aa-jl07c-te_rdml_ref_man.tar ./AA/aa-k085d-te_data_def_lang_ref.tar ./AA/aa-kl03d-te_guide_to_dec_code_mgmt_system.tar ./AA/aa-kl46a-te_cdd_plus_ug.tar ./AA/aa-kn85b-te_dstr_name_svc_mgmt.tar ./AA/aa-kn86b-te_dstr_name_svc_inst.tar ./AA/aa-l069j-te_vax_psi_inst.tar ./AA/aa-l629e-te_cdd_utils.tar ./AA/aa-nd79a-te_rdb_sql_svcs_dec89.tar ./AA/aa-nf47a-te_pscript_transl_ref.tar ./AA/aa-ny74c-te_upgr_instl_nov91.tar ./AA/aa-p119d-te_dec_module_mgmt_may89.tar ./AA/aa-pajka-tk_lang_sens_editor_dec89.tar ./AA/aa-pajla-tk_lang_sens_editor_um_dec89.tar ./AA/aa-pbzta-te_UIS_Source_Code_Annotator_Users_Guide_Aug90.tar ./AA/aa-q1x7a-te_vmsclus_add_oct93.tar ./AA/aa-y298a-tk_enet_lnk_dec83.tar ./AA/aa-z330e-te_dec_test_mgr_dec89.tar ./EY-2278E-MM-0001_Listings_Book_Oct84.tar ./QS/qs-970-mg_ses_mgr_gde_nov89.tar ./QS/qs-970-mg_ses_mgr_jun90.tar ./QS/qs-970aa-gz_ses_doc_set.tar ./QS/qs-970aa-ig_ses_inst_jun90.tar ./QS/qs-970aa-ug_ses_ug_5.2.tar ./QS/qs-970aa-ug_ses_ug_jun90.tar ./VMS_1.5_Manuals.txt.tar ./VMS_2.0_Mar80/B00_Binder_Contents.tar ./VMS_2.0_Mar80/B01/AA-D015C-TE_VMS_2.0_Release_Notes_Mar80.tar ./VMS_2.0_Mar80/B01/AA-D016C-TE_VMS_2.0_Directory_and_Index_Mar80.tar ./VMS_2.0_Mar80/B01/AA-D022B-TE_Summary_and_Glossary.tar ./VMS_2.0_Mar80/B01/AA-D030B-TE_Primer.tar ./VMS_2.0_Mar80/B01/SPD.tar ./VMS_2.0_Mar80/B02A/AA-D023B-TE_Command_Language_Users_Guide_b.tar ./VMS_2.0_Mar80/B02A/AA-D023B-TE_Command_Language_Users_Guide_f.tar ./VMS_2.0_Mar80/B02A/AA-H782A-TE_Guide_to_Command_Procedures_b.tar ./VMS_2.0_Mar80/B02A/AA-H782A-TE_Guide_to_Command_Procedures_f.tar ./VMS_2.0_Mar80/B02B/AA-D017B-TE_System_Messages.tar ./VMS_2.0_Mar80/B03A/AA-3341C-TC_PDP-11_Sort_Ref_Man.tar ./VMS_2.0_Mar80/B03A/AA-D029B-TE_Text_Editing_SOS.tar ./VMS_2.0_Mar80/B03A/AA-D113A-TE_VAX-11_Sort_Users_Guide.tar ./VMS_2.0_Mar80/B03A/AA-H781A-TE_Utilities_Ref_Man.tar ./VMS_2.0_Mar80/B03A/AA-H94A-TE_EDT_Editor_Ref_Man.tar ./VMS_2.0_Mar80/B03B/AA-D019B-TE_Linker_Reference.tar ./VMS_2.0_Mar80/B03B/AA-D026B-TE_Symbolic_Debugger_Reference.tar ./VMS_2.0_Mar80/B03B/AA-D032C-TE_VAX-11_Macro_Language_Reference.tar ./VMS_2.0_Mar80/B03B/AA-D033C-TE_VAX-11_Macro_Users_Guide.tar ./VMS_2.0_Mar80/B04/AA-D018B-TE_System_Services_Reference.tar ./VMS_2.0_Mar80/B04/AA-D028B-TE_IO_Users_Guide.tar ./VMS_2.0_Mar80/B05/AA-D036B-TE_Run-Time_Library_Reference.tar ./VMS_2.0_Mar80/B05/AA-H500B-TE_Guide_to_Creating_Modular_Library_Procedures.tar ./VMS_2.0_Mar80/B06/AA-D024C-TE_Introduction_to_RMS.tar ./VMS_2.0_Mar80/B06/AA-D031C-TE_RMS_Reference_Manual.tar ./VMS_2.0_Mar80/B06/AA-D781C-TE_RMS_Users_Guide.tar ./VMS_2.0_Mar80/B07/AA-D538A-TC_RMS-11_Users_Guide.tar ./VMS_2.0_Mar80/B07/AA-H683A-TC_RMS-11_Macro-11_Reference.tar ./VMS_2.0_Mar80/B08/AA-D020B-TE_VAX-11_RSX-11M_Programmers_Reference.tar ./VMS_2.0_Mar80/B08/AA-D037B-TE_VAX-11_RSX-11M_Users_Guide.tar ./VMS_2.0_Mar80/B09/AA-H499B-TE_Guide_to_Writing_a_Device_Driver.tar ./VMS_2.0_Mar80/B09/AA-H784A-TE_Real-Time_Users_Guide.tar ./VMS_2.0_Mar80/B09/AA-H785A-TE_PATCH_Utility_Reference.tar ./VMS_2.0_Mar80/B09/AA-J526A-TE_System_Dump_Analyzer_Reference.tar ./VMS_2.0_Mar80/B10/AA-D021C-TE_Software_Installation_Guide.tar ./VMS_2.0_Mar80/B10/AA-D025B-TE_VAX-VMS-Operators_Guide.tar ./VMS_2.0_Mar80/B10/AA-D027B-TE_System_Managers_Guide.tar ./VMS_2.0_Mar80/B10/AA-D643B-TE_UETP_Users_Guide.tar ./VMS_3.0_May82/aa-h499c-te_vax_vms_3.0_Guide_to_Writing_a_Device_Driver_May82.tar ./VMS_3.0_May82/aa-h782b-te_vax_vms_3.0_guide_to_using_command_procedures_may82.tar ./VMS_3.0_May82/aa-m547a-te_vax_vms_3.0_system_management_and_operations_guide_may82.tar ./VMS_4.0_Sep84/aa-y514a-te_guide_to_vax_vms_4.0_software_installation_sep84.tar ./VMS_4.0_Sep84/aa-z102a-te_VAX_VMS_4.0_Glossary_Sep84.tar ./VMS_4.0_Sep84/aa-z104a-te_vax_vms_4.0_master_index_sep84.tar ./VMS_4.4_Apr86/AA-Z600C-TE_VAX_VMS_4.4_IO_Users_Reference_Manual_Part1_Apr86.tar ./VMS_4.4_Apr86/AI-Y151B-TE_Guide_to_VAX_VMS_Performance_Management_V4.4_Apr86.tar ./VMS_4.4_Apr86/EY-8264E-DP_VMS_Internals_and_Data_Structures_4.4_.tar ./VMS_4.4_Apr86/aa-z101c-te_Introduction_to_the_VAX_VMS_4.4_Document_Set_Apr86.tar ./VMS_4.4_Apr86/aa-z104c-te_vax_vms_4.4_master_index_apr86.tar ./VMS_4.4_Apr86/aa-z429c-te_vax_vms_system_Dump_analyzer_4.4_Apr86.tar ./VMS_4.4_Apr86/aa-z430b-te_VMS_4.4_Show_Cluster_Utility_Apr86.tar ./VMS_4.4_Apr86/ai-y506b-te_VMS_4.4_Disk_and_Tape_Operations_Apr86.tar ./VMS_4.4_Apr86/vmsInternals_prelim_4.4_87.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M1A/AA-LA23A-TE_VMS_System_Management_Master_Index_Apr88.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M1A/m1a_aa-la24a-te_Introduction_to_VMS_System_Management_apr88.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M1A/m1a_aa-la25a-te_Guide_to_Setting_Up_a_VMS_System_apr88.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M1A/m1a_aa-la26a-te_VMS_SYSMAN_Utility_Manual_apr88.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M1B/m1b_aa-la27a-te_VMS_VAXcluster_Manual_apr88.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M1B/m1b_aa-la28a-te_VMS_Exchange_Utility_Manual_apr88.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M1B/m1b_aa-la29a-te_VMS_Install_Utility_Manual.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M1B/m1b_aa-la30a-te_VMS_System_Generation_Utility_Manual.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M1B/m1b_aa-la31a-te_VMS_Terminal_Fallback_Utility_Manual.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M1B/m1b_aa-la32a-te_VMS_LAT_Control_Program_LATCP_Manual.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M2/m2_aa-la34a-te_Guide_to_Maintaining_a_VMS_System.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M2/m2_aa-la35a-te_VMS_Backup_Utility_Manual.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M2/m2_aa-la36a-te_VMS_Bad_Block_Locator_Utility_Manual.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M2/m2_aa-la37a-te_VMS_Error_Log_Utility_Manual.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M2/m2_aa-la38a-te_VMS_Mount_Utility_Manual.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M2/m2_aa-la39a-te_VMS_Analyze_Disk_Structure_Utility_Manual.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M3/m3_aa-la40b-te_Guide_to_VMS_System_Security.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M3/m3_aa-la41a-te_VMS_Access_Control_List_Editor_Manual.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M3/m3_aa-la42a-te_VMS_Authorize_Utility_Manual.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M3/m3_aa-ng63a-te_VMS_Audit_Analysis_Utility_Manual_jun89.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M4/aa-la43a-te_Guide_to_VMS_Performance_Management.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M4/aa-la43a-te_guide_to_VMS_performance_Mangement_apr88.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M4/aa-la44a-te_VMS_Accounting_Utility_Manual.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M4/aa-la45a-te_VMS_Monitor_Utility_Manual/aa-la45a-te_b.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M4/aa-la45a-te_VMS_Monitor_Utility_Manual/aa-la45a-te_f.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M4/aa-la45a-te_Vms_monitor_utility_manual_apr88.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M4/aa-la46a-te_VMS_Show_Cluster_Utility_Manual.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M5A/m5a_aa-la47a-te_Guide_to_DECnet-VAX_Networking_apr88.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M5A/m5a_aa-la48a-te_VMS_Networking_Manual_apr88.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M5B/m5b_aa-la49a-te_VMS_DECnet_Test_Sender_DECnet_Test_Receiver_Utility_Manual_apr88.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M5B/m5b_aa-la50a-te_VMS_Network_Control_Program_Manual_apr88.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P1/AA-LA56A-TE_VMS_Programming_Master_Index_Apr88.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P1/aa-la57a-te_Guide_to_VMS_Programming_Resources.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P1/p1_aa-la57a-te_apr88.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P1/p1_aa-la58a-te_Guide_to_Creating_VMS_Modular_Procedures_apr88.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P2A/aa-la59a-te_VMS_Debugger_Manual.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P2B/aa-la60a-te_VMS_Command_Definition_Utility_Manual.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P2B/aa-la61a-te_VMS_Librarian_Utility_Manual.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P2B/aa-la62a-te_VMS_Linker_Utility_Manual.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P2B/aa-la63a-te_VMS_Message_Utility_Manual.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P2B/aa-la64a-te_VMS_Patch_Utility_Manual.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P2B/aa-la65a-te_VMS_SUMSLP_Utility_Manual.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P3/aa-la66a-te_Introduction_to_VMS_System_Routines.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P3/aa-la67a-te_VMS_Utility_Routines_Manual.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P4A/aa-la68a-te_Introduction_to_VMS_System_Services.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P4B/aa-la69a-te_VMS_System_Services_Reference_Manual_apr88.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P5A/aa-la70a-te_Introduction_to_the_VMS_Run-Time_Library_apr88.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P5A/aa-la71a-te_vms_rtl_Dectalk_manual_apr88.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P5A/aa-la72a-te.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P5A/aa-la72a-te_vms_rtl_mathematics_manual_5.4_jun90.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P5A/aa-la73a-te_vms_rtl_general_purpose_manual_apr88.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P5A/aa-la74a-te.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P5A/aa-la74a-te_vms_rtl_parallel_processing_manual_5.4_Jun90.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P5B/p5b_aa-la76a-te_VMS_RTL_Library_LIB$_Manual_apr88.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P5C/aa-la75a-te_vms_rtl_string_manipulation_manual_Apr88.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P5C/aa-la77a-te_vms_rtl_Screen_management_manual_Apr88.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P6A/aa-la78a-te_guide_to_vms_file_applications_Apr88.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P6A/aa-la79a-te_VMS_Analyze_RMS_File_Utility_Manual.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P6A/aa-la81a-te_VMS_File_Definition_Language_Facility_Manual.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P6A/aa-la82a-te_VMS_National_Character_Set_Utility_Manual.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P6B/aa-la83a-te.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P6B/aa-la83a-te_vms_record_management_services_reference_manual_apr88.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P7A/p7a_aa-la84a-te_VMS_IO_Users_Reference_Manual_Part 1_apr88.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P7A/p7a_aa-la85a-ate_VMS_IO_Users_Reference_Manual_Part 2_Apr88.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P7B/aa-la86a-te_VMS_Delta_XDelta_Utility_Manual.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P7B/aa-la87a-te_VMS_System_Dump_Analyzer_Utility_Manual.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P8/aa-la88a-te_VMS_Device_Support_Apr88.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P9/aa-la89a-te_VAX_MACRO_and_Instruction_Set_Reference_Manual/p9_aa-la89a-te_b.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P9/aa-la89a-te_VAX_MACRO_and_Instruction_Set_Reference_Manual/p9_aa-la89a-te_f.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U1/AA-LA01A-TE_VMS_Master_Index_Apr88.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U1/AA-LA02A-TE_VMS_General_User_Master_Index_Apr88.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U1/AA-LA03A-TE_VMS_Glossary_Apr88.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U2A/u2a_aa-la04a-te_Introduction_to_VMS_apr88.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U2A/u2a_aa-la05a-te_Guide_to_Using_VMS_apr88.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U2A/u2a_aa-la06a-te_Guide_to_VMS_Files_and_Devices_apr88.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U2B/u2b_aa-la07a-te_VMS_Mail_Utility_Manual.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U2B/u2b_aa-la08a-te_VMS_Phone_Utility_Manual.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U2B/u2b_aa-la09a-te_VMS_Sort_Merge_Utility_Manual.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U3/u3_aa-la10a-te_VMS_DCL_Concepts_Manual.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U3/u3_aa-la11a-te_Guide_to_Using_VMS_Command_Procedures.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U4/u4_aa-la12a-te_VMS_DCL_Dictionary.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U5A/u5a_aa-la13a-te_Guide_to_VMS_Text_Processing.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U5A/u5a_aa-la16a-te_VAX_EDT_Reference_Manual.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U5B/aa-la14a-te_VMS_Text_Processing_Utility_Manual_front.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U5B/aa-la14b-te_VMS_Text_Processing_Utility_Manual_V5.2.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U5B/u5b_aa-ng62a-te_EVE_Reference_Manual_jun89.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U5C/u5c_aa-la15a-te_VAX_DIGITAL_Standard_Runoff_Reference_Manual_apr88.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U6A/u6a_aa-la17a-te_VMS_System_Messages_and_Recovery_Procedures_Reference_Manual_Part_1.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U6B/u6b_aa-la18a-te_VMS_System_Messages_and_Recovery_Procedures_Reference_Manual_Part_2.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/aa-la87a-te_vms5.0sysDmp_apr88.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/aa-lb22a-te_VMS_Version_5.0_Release_Notes_Apr88.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/aa-lb25a-te_VMS_5.0_Obsolete_Features_Manual_Apr88.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/aa-lb34a-te_VAXstation_2000_Installation_Apr88.tar ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/ey-d209e-sg-0001.tar ./VMS_5.2_Jun89/a-la98b-te_5.2um_jun89.tar ./VMS_5.2_Jun89/aa-la008-te_5.2mgr_jun89.tar ./VMS_5.2_Jun89/aa-la00b-te_VMS_System_Managers_Manual_5.2_Jun89.tar ./VMS_5.2_Jun89/aa-la95b-te_Overview_of_VMS_Documentation_5.2_Jun89.tar ./VMS_5.2_Jun89/aa-la97b-te_5.2new.tar ./VMS_5.2_Jun89/aa-la97b-te_VMS_Version_5.2_New_Features_Manual_Jun89.tar ./VMS_5.2_Jun89/aa-la97b-te_vms_5.2_new_features_jun89.tar ./VMS_5.2_Jun89/aa-la98b-te_VMS_Users_Manual_5.2_Jun89.tar ./VMS_5.2_Jun89/aa-la98b-te_vmsUG5.2_jun89.tar ./VMS_5.2_Jun89/ad-dy65e-te_vms_workstation_software_video_device_driver_manual_jun89.tar ./VMS_5.2_Jun89/vmsInternals5.2.tar ./VMS_5.3_Oct89/AA-NG61B_TE_vms53upg.tar ./VMS_5.3_Oct89/EY-9768E-DA-0002_VMS_Internals_I_Mechanisms_and_Overview_Listings_Oct89.tar ./VMS_5.3_Oct89/EY-9769E-DA-0002_VMS_Internals_II_Memory_Mgmt_IO_and_Advanced_Topics_Listings_Oct89.tar ./VMS_5.3_Oct89/aa-mg29b-te_VMS_Version_5.3_New_Features_Manual_Oct89.tar ./VMS_5.3_Oct89/aa-ng61b-te_vms5.3_inst.tar 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./_VAXLAB/aa-kn96b-te_getting_started_with_vaxlab_1.3_aug88.tar ./_VAX_DOCUMENT/aa-jt84a-te_vax_document_1.0_user_manual_volume_1_Jul87.tar ./_VAX_DOCUMENT/aa-jt84b-te_vax_document_1.1_user_manual_volume_1_jul88.tar ./_VAX_DOCUMENT/aa-jt84c-te_vax_document_2.0_using_global_tags_feb91.tar ./_VAX_DOCUMENT/aa-jt86a-te_vax_document_1.0_user_manual_volume_2_jul87.tar ./_VAX_DOCUMENT/aa-jt86b-te_vax_document_2.0_using_doctypes_and_related_tags_feb91.tar ./_VMS_WORKSTATION/AL-GI10B-TN_MicroVMS_Workstation_Graphics_Programming_Guide_May86.tar ./_VMS_WORKSTATION/aa-GI10c-te_vms_workstation_software_4.0_graphics_programming_guide_may88.tar ./_VMS_WORKSTATION/aa-ez24d-te_vms_workstation_software_users_guide_jun89.tar ./_VMS_WORKSTATION/aa-gi10c-te_vms_workstation_software_4.1_graphics_programming_guide_jun89.tar ./_VMS_WORKSTATION/aa-hq85c-te_vms_workstation_software_4.0_software_guide_to_printing_graphics_jun89.tar ./_VMS_WORKSTATION/aa-kz94b-te_vms_workstation_software_sight_4.1_users_guide_jun89.tar ./_VMS_WORKSTATION/aa-mi67a-te_a_guide_to_migrating_vws_applications_to_decwindows.tar ./_WPS_PLUS/aa-bl46e-te_wps-plus3.0inst_sep88.tar From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Aug 24 12:45:21 2019 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 13:45:21 -0400 Subject: Too many DEC binders In-Reply-To: <705481e9-feac-a2dd-a10d-02a39d11f366@bitsavers.org> References: <87tva73uc4.fsf@gromit.rhwyd.co.uk> <705481e9-feac-a2dd-a10d-02a39d11f366@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 2019-08-24 1:03 p.m., Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 8/24/19 12:18 AM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: >> I have a full book case of DEC binders, each containing one or more >> manuals. I went through the lot of it this evening and checked to see >> what was on bitsavers. It seems an awful lot of it is not available. > > here is a list of the manuals I have scanned but not pdf'ed ... snip > ./_DTR/aa-aj56i-te_vaxDtrInst4.2_jul88.tar > ./_DTR/aa-aj56j-te_vaxDtr5.0inst_dec89.tar > ./_DTR/aa-k080d-te_vax_datatrieve_users_guide_dec85.tar Hi Al, Thank goodness you have the datatrieve user's guide complete. Turns out my binder is incomplete, half missing, so I'll abandon that one. As I wrote earlier this month, my others in the scanning queue, apparently complete, are: * Reference Manual, AA-K079E-TE * Guide to Writing Reports, AA-P862C-TE * Handbook, AA-W675B-TE By the way, what's your position on scanning two-colour printed manuals like the DTR ones? Not worth keeping the colour for Bitsavers? --Toby From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Sat Aug 24 13:18:01 2019 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 19:18:01 +0100 Subject: Too many DEC binders In-Reply-To: <705481e9-feac-a2dd-a10d-02a39d11f366@bitsavers.org> References: <87tva73uc4.fsf@gromit.rhwyd.co.uk> <705481e9-feac-a2dd-a10d-02a39d11f366@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <87r25a4ecm.fsf@gromit.rhwyd.co.uk> > On 8/24/19 12:18 AM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: >> I have a full book case of DEC binders, each containing one or more >> manuals. I went through the lot of it this evening and checked to see >> what was on bitsavers. It seems an awful lot of it is not available. > > here is a list of the manuals I have scanned but not pdf'ed Thanks Al, that's 8 which I don't need to worry about then. By the way, the first item on my list is on bitsavers but the filename is incorrect. The order number is AA-Y513A-TE but the filename is vax/vms/4.0/AA-Y512A-TE_VMS_4.0_Guide_To_VAXclusters_Sep84.pdf Aaron. From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Sat Aug 24 13:58:08 2019 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 19:58:08 +0100 Subject: Too many DEC binders In-Reply-To: <87tva73uc4.fsf@gromit.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87tva73uc4.fsf@gromit.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <87pnku4chr.fsf@gromit.rhwyd.co.uk> Many thanks to Matt Burke and Al Kassow, I have reduced my list of "need to scan" to 24 manuals. If anyone has any of these, please let me know so I can avoid scanning them. AA-Y510B-TE Guide to VAX / VMS System Security AI-Y517A-TE VAX / VMS User's Manual AA-Z501C-TE VAX / VMS System Services Reference Manual AA-H501B-TC DECnet/E Network Programming in BASIC-PLUS and BASIC-PLUS-2 AA-H503B-TC DECnet/E Network Programming in COBOL AA-Z501C-TE VAX / VMS Run-Time Library Routines Reference Manual AA-JF88A-TE VAX / VMS Release Notes, Version 4.5 AA-M269B-TC DECnet/E Release Notes AA-K714A-TC DECnet/E Network Installation Guide AA-L266A-TC DECnet/E Network Programming in FORTRAN AA-L265A-TC DECnet/E Network Programming in MACRO-11 AA-Z601C-TE VAX / VMS I/O User's Reference Manual: Part II AA-M539A-TE VAX / VMS Magnetic Tape User Guide AA-D113C-TE VAX-11 SORT / MERGE User's Guide AA-Z505C-TE Part II Run-Time Library Routines AA-KX22A-TE LAT / VMS Management Guide AA-KX21A-TE VAX / VMS Supplemental Information, Version 4.7 AD-L034A-28 VAX / VMS System Dispatch November 1985 AD-LO34A-31 VAX / VMS System Dispatch May 1986 AD-L034A-27 VAX / VMS System Dispatch September 1985 AD-L034A-29 VAX / VMS System Dispatch January 1986 AD-L034A-30 VAX / VMS System Dispatch March 1986 AD-L034A-26 VAX / VMS System Dispatch July 1985 AD-L034A-32 VAX / VMS System Dispatch July 1986 http://aaronsplace.co.uk/dec-manuals.html This page has been updated to reflect what has already digitised. Thanks, Aaron Aaron Jackson via cctalk writes: > I have a full book case of DEC binders, each containing one or more > manuals. I went through the lot of it this evening and checked to see > what was on bitsavers. It seems an awful lot of it is not available. I > cannot bring myself to dispose of any of it until it is digitised, but > keeping hold of this much paper is not practical for me. > > I'm going to try to scan as much as I can. The full list of what I have > is available at the link below. It is mostly mid 1980's VAX/VMS > stuff.. If anyone would like one of the manuals for the cost of > shipping, I'd gladly send it over to you. > > http://aaronsplace.co.uk/dec-manuals.html > > *** If there is anything you consider a priority in terms of being > scanned, please let me know and I'll try to do it sooner, rather than > later. *** > > Finally, I'd like to mention that these manuals came from a friend, > Marc, who passed away early last year. Marc used to be somewhat active > on this list (more so the #classiccmp IRC channel). A friend of Marc > will be participating in a walk for the Campaign Against Living > Miserably (CALM) charity. If anyone is willing to donate (even a small > amount), it would mean a lot to me. CALM is a charity supporting men who > suffer from depression - one of the leading killers of men under 45 in > the UK. > > https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/losthourswalk2019inmemoryofmarc > > Many thanks, > Aaron From barythrin at gmail.com Sat Aug 24 14:25:03 2019 From: barythrin at gmail.com (John Herron) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 14:25:03 -0500 Subject: Shipping from Europe to USA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: With all of the stories. I don't know if it exists internationally but I think the moral is get insurance with shipper. On Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 12:31 PM Steven Stengel via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > How do I ship a 50 pound computer from Europe to the United States? Who > has good rates? > Thanks- > Steve > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Aug 24 14:31:19 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 13:31:19 -0600 Subject: Shipping from Europe to USA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 8/24/2019 1:25 PM, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > With all of the stories. I don't know if it exists internationally but I > think the moral is get insurance with shipper. I thought it was DRIVE your own FORKLIFT. So how did the orginal companies like DEC ship thier products? Ben. From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Sat Aug 24 15:30:11 2019 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 15:30:11 -0500 Subject: Too many DEC binders In-Reply-To: <705481e9-feac-a2dd-a10d-02a39d11f366@bitsavers.org> References: <87tva73uc4.fsf@gromit.rhwyd.co.uk> <705481e9-feac-a2dd-a10d-02a39d11f366@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <871f5ce1-acc0-8ac7-37be-82e033f7b4f2@thereinhardts.org> I'll have to double check, but from the looks of this list I don't need the VAX/VMS Grey Wall that I acquired a couple months ago.? It's a nearly pristine set of the V5.0 VAX/VMS documentation set. Some volumes are still sealed in plastic. On 8/24/2019 12:03 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > here is a list of the manuals I have scanned but not pdf'ed > > > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M1A/AA-LA23A-TE_VMS_System_Management_Master_Index_Apr88.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M1A/m1a_aa-la24a-te_Introduction_to_VMS_System_Management_apr88.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M1A/m1a_aa-la25a-te_Guide_to_Setting_Up_a_VMS_System_apr88.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M1A/m1a_aa-la26a-te_VMS_SYSMAN_Utility_Manual_apr88.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M1B/m1b_aa-la27a-te_VMS_VAXcluster_Manual_apr88.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M1B/m1b_aa-la28a-te_VMS_Exchange_Utility_Manual_apr88.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M1B/m1b_aa-la29a-te_VMS_Install_Utility_Manual.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M1B/m1b_aa-la30a-te_VMS_System_Generation_Utility_Manual.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M1B/m1b_aa-la31a-te_VMS_Terminal_Fallback_Utility_Manual.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M1B/m1b_aa-la32a-te_VMS_LAT_Control_Program_LATCP_Manual.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M2/m2_aa-la34a-te_Guide_to_Maintaining_a_VMS_System.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M2/m2_aa-la35a-te_VMS_Backup_Utility_Manual.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M2/m2_aa-la36a-te_VMS_Bad_Block_Locator_Utility_Manual.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M2/m2_aa-la37a-te_VMS_Error_Log_Utility_Manual.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M2/m2_aa-la38a-te_VMS_Mount_Utility_Manual.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M2/m2_aa-la39a-te_VMS_Analyze_Disk_Structure_Utility_Manual.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M3/m3_aa-la40b-te_Guide_to_VMS_System_Security.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M3/m3_aa-la41a-te_VMS_Access_Control_List_Editor_Manual.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M3/m3_aa-la42a-te_VMS_Authorize_Utility_Manual.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M3/m3_aa-ng63a-te_VMS_Audit_Analysis_Utility_Manual_jun89.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M4/aa-la43a-te_Guide_to_VMS_Performance_Management.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M4/aa-la43a-te_guide_to_VMS_performance_Mangement_apr88.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M4/aa-la44a-te_VMS_Accounting_Utility_Manual.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M4/aa-la45a-te_VMS_Monitor_Utility_Manual/aa-la45a-te_b.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M4/aa-la45a-te_VMS_Monitor_Utility_Manual/aa-la45a-te_f.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M4/aa-la45a-te_Vms_monitor_utility_manual_apr88.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M4/aa-la46a-te_VMS_Show_Cluster_Utility_Manual.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M5A/m5a_aa-la47a-te_Guide_to_DECnet-VAX_Networking_apr88.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M5A/m5a_aa-la48a-te_VMS_Networking_Manual_apr88.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M5B/m5b_aa-la49a-te_VMS_DECnet_Test_Sender_DECnet_Test_Receiver_Utility_Manual_apr88.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M5B/m5b_aa-la50a-te_VMS_Network_Control_Program_Manual_apr88.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P1/AA-LA56A-TE_VMS_Programming_Master_Index_Apr88.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P1/aa-la57a-te_Guide_to_VMS_Programming_Resources.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P1/p1_aa-la57a-te_apr88.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P1/p1_aa-la58a-te_Guide_to_Creating_VMS_Modular_Procedures_apr88.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P2A/aa-la59a-te_VMS_Debugger_Manual.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P2B/aa-la60a-te_VMS_Command_Definition_Utility_Manual.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P2B/aa-la61a-te_VMS_Librarian_Utility_Manual.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P2B/aa-la62a-te_VMS_Linker_Utility_Manual.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P2B/aa-la63a-te_VMS_Message_Utility_Manual.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P2B/aa-la64a-te_VMS_Patch_Utility_Manual.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P2B/aa-la65a-te_VMS_SUMSLP_Utility_Manual.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P3/aa-la66a-te_Introduction_to_VMS_System_Routines.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P3/aa-la67a-te_VMS_Utility_Routines_Manual.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P4A/aa-la68a-te_Introduction_to_VMS_System_Services.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P4B/aa-la69a-te_VMS_System_Services_Reference_Manual_apr88.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P5A/aa-la70a-te_Introduction_to_the_VMS_Run-Time_Library_apr88.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P5A/aa-la71a-te_vms_rtl_Dectalk_manual_apr88.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P5A/aa-la72a-te.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P5A/aa-la72a-te_vms_rtl_mathematics_manual_5.4_jun90.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P5A/aa-la73a-te_vms_rtl_general_purpose_manual_apr88.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P5A/aa-la74a-te.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P5A/aa-la74a-te_vms_rtl_parallel_processing_manual_5.4_Jun90.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P5B/p5b_aa-la76a-te_VMS_RTL_Library_LIB$_Manual_apr88.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P5C/aa-la75a-te_vms_rtl_string_manipulation_manual_Apr88.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P5C/aa-la77a-te_vms_rtl_Screen_management_manual_Apr88.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P6A/aa-la78a-te_guide_to_vms_file_applications_Apr88.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P6A/aa-la79a-te_VMS_Analyze_RMS_File_Utility_Manual.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P6A/aa-la81a-te_VMS_File_Definition_Language_Facility_Manual.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P6A/aa-la82a-te_VMS_National_Character_Set_Utility_Manual.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P6B/aa-la83a-te.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P6B/aa-la83a-te_vms_record_management_services_reference_manual_apr88.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P7A/p7a_aa-la84a-te_VMS_IO_Users_Reference_Manual_Part 1_apr88.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P7A/p7a_aa-la85a-ate_VMS_IO_Users_Reference_Manual_Part 2_Apr88.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P7B/aa-la86a-te_VMS_Delta_XDelta_Utility_Manual.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P7B/aa-la87a-te_VMS_System_Dump_Analyzer_Utility_Manual.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P8/aa-la88a-te_VMS_Device_Support_Apr88.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P9/aa-la89a-te_VAX_MACRO_and_Instruction_Set_Reference_Manual/p9_aa-la89a-te_b.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P9/aa-la89a-te_VAX_MACRO_and_Instruction_Set_Reference_Manual/p9_aa-la89a-te_f.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U1/AA-LA01A-TE_VMS_Master_Index_Apr88.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U1/AA-LA02A-TE_VMS_General_User_Master_Index_Apr88.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U1/AA-LA03A-TE_VMS_Glossary_Apr88.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U2A/u2a_aa-la04a-te_Introduction_to_VMS_apr88.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U2A/u2a_aa-la05a-te_Guide_to_Using_VMS_apr88.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U2A/u2a_aa-la06a-te_Guide_to_VMS_Files_and_Devices_apr88.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U2B/u2b_aa-la07a-te_VMS_Mail_Utility_Manual.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U2B/u2b_aa-la08a-te_VMS_Phone_Utility_Manual.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U2B/u2b_aa-la09a-te_VMS_Sort_Merge_Utility_Manual.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U3/u3_aa-la10a-te_VMS_DCL_Concepts_Manual.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U3/u3_aa-la11a-te_Guide_to_Using_VMS_Command_Procedures.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U4/u4_aa-la12a-te_VMS_DCL_Dictionary.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U5A/u5a_aa-la13a-te_Guide_to_VMS_Text_Processing.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U5A/u5a_aa-la16a-te_VAX_EDT_Reference_Manual.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U5B/aa-la14a-te_VMS_Text_Processing_Utility_Manual_front.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U5B/aa-la14b-te_VMS_Text_Processing_Utility_Manual_V5.2.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U5B/u5b_aa-ng62a-te_EVE_Reference_Manual_jun89.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U5C/u5c_aa-la15a-te_VAX_DIGITAL_Standard_Runoff_Reference_Manual_apr88.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U6A/u6a_aa-la17a-te_VMS_System_Messages_and_Recovery_Procedures_Reference_Manual_Part_1.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U6B/u6b_aa-la18a-te_VMS_System_Messages_and_Recovery_Procedures_Reference_Manual_Part_2.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/aa-la87a-te_vms5.0sysDmp_apr88.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/aa-lb22a-te_VMS_Version_5.0_Release_Notes_Apr88.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/aa-lb25a-te_VMS_5.0_Obsolete_Features_Manual_Apr88.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/aa-lb34a-te_VAXstation_2000_Installation_Apr88.tar > ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/ey-d209e-sg-0001.tar > > > -- John H. Reinhardt PRRT&HS #8909 C&O HS #11530 N-Trak #7566 From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Sat Aug 24 15:38:15 2019 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 15:38:15 -0500 Subject: Too many DEC binders In-Reply-To: <871f5ce1-acc0-8ac7-37be-82e033f7b4f2@thereinhardts.org> References: <87tva73uc4.fsf@gromit.rhwyd.co.uk> <705481e9-feac-a2dd-a10d-02a39d11f366@bitsavers.org> <871f5ce1-acc0-8ac7-37be-82e033f7b4f2@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: On 8/24/2019 3:30 PM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: > I'll have to double check, but from the looks of this list I don't need the VAX/VMS Grey Wall that I acquired a couple months ago.? It's a nearly pristine set of the V5.0 VAX/VMS documentation set. Some volumes are still sealed in plastic. > > On 8/24/2019 12:03 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> >> here is a list of the manuals I have scanned but not pdf'ed >> >> >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M1A/AA-LA23A-TE_VMS_System_Management_Master_Index_Apr88.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M1A/m1a_aa-la24a-te_Introduction_to_VMS_System_Management_apr88.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M1A/m1a_aa-la25a-te_Guide_to_Setting_Up_a_VMS_System_apr88.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M1A/m1a_aa-la26a-te_VMS_SYSMAN_Utility_Manual_apr88.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M1B/m1b_aa-la27a-te_VMS_VAXcluster_Manual_apr88.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M1B/m1b_aa-la28a-te_VMS_Exchange_Utility_Manual_apr88.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M1B/m1b_aa-la29a-te_VMS_Install_Utility_Manual.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M1B/m1b_aa-la30a-te_VMS_System_Generation_Utility_Manual.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M1B/m1b_aa-la31a-te_VMS_Terminal_Fallback_Utility_Manual.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M1B/m1b_aa-la32a-te_VMS_LAT_Control_Program_LATCP_Manual.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M2/m2_aa-la34a-te_Guide_to_Maintaining_a_VMS_System.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M2/m2_aa-la35a-te_VMS_Backup_Utility_Manual.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M2/m2_aa-la36a-te_VMS_Bad_Block_Locator_Utility_Manual.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M2/m2_aa-la37a-te_VMS_Error_Log_Utility_Manual.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M2/m2_aa-la38a-te_VMS_Mount_Utility_Manual.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M2/m2_aa-la39a-te_VMS_Analyze_Disk_Structure_Utility_Manual.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M3/m3_aa-la40b-te_Guide_to_VMS_System_Security.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M3/m3_aa-la41a-te_VMS_Access_Control_List_Editor_Manual.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M3/m3_aa-la42a-te_VMS_Authorize_Utility_Manual.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M3/m3_aa-ng63a-te_VMS_Audit_Analysis_Utility_Manual_jun89.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M4/aa-la43a-te_Guide_to_VMS_Performance_Management.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M4/aa-la43a-te_guide_to_VMS_performance_Mangement_apr88.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M4/aa-la44a-te_VMS_Accounting_Utility_Manual.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M4/aa-la45a-te_VMS_Monitor_Utility_Manual/aa-la45a-te_b.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M4/aa-la45a-te_VMS_Monitor_Utility_Manual/aa-la45a-te_f.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M4/aa-la45a-te_Vms_monitor_utility_manual_apr88.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M4/aa-la46a-te_VMS_Show_Cluster_Utility_Manual.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M5A/m5a_aa-la47a-te_Guide_to_DECnet-VAX_Networking_apr88.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M5A/m5a_aa-la48a-te_VMS_Networking_Manual_apr88.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M5B/m5b_aa-la49a-te_VMS_DECnet_Test_Sender_DECnet_Test_Receiver_Utility_Manual_apr88.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/M5B/m5b_aa-la50a-te_VMS_Network_Control_Program_Manual_apr88.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P1/AA-LA56A-TE_VMS_Programming_Master_Index_Apr88.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P1/aa-la57a-te_Guide_to_VMS_Programming_Resources.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P1/p1_aa-la57a-te_apr88.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P1/p1_aa-la58a-te_Guide_to_Creating_VMS_Modular_Procedures_apr88.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P2A/aa-la59a-te_VMS_Debugger_Manual.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P2B/aa-la60a-te_VMS_Command_Definition_Utility_Manual.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P2B/aa-la61a-te_VMS_Librarian_Utility_Manual.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P2B/aa-la62a-te_VMS_Linker_Utility_Manual.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P2B/aa-la63a-te_VMS_Message_Utility_Manual.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P2B/aa-la64a-te_VMS_Patch_Utility_Manual.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P2B/aa-la65a-te_VMS_SUMSLP_Utility_Manual.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P3/aa-la66a-te_Introduction_to_VMS_System_Routines.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P3/aa-la67a-te_VMS_Utility_Routines_Manual.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P4A/aa-la68a-te_Introduction_to_VMS_System_Services.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P4B/aa-la69a-te_VMS_System_Services_Reference_Manual_apr88.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P5A/aa-la70a-te_Introduction_to_the_VMS_Run-Time_Library_apr88.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P5A/aa-la71a-te_vms_rtl_Dectalk_manual_apr88.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P5A/aa-la72a-te.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P5A/aa-la72a-te_vms_rtl_mathematics_manual_5.4_jun90.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P5A/aa-la73a-te_vms_rtl_general_purpose_manual_apr88.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P5A/aa-la74a-te.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P5A/aa-la74a-te_vms_rtl_parallel_processing_manual_5.4_Jun90.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P5B/p5b_aa-la76a-te_VMS_RTL_Library_LIB$_Manual_apr88.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P5C/aa-la75a-te_vms_rtl_string_manipulation_manual_Apr88.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P5C/aa-la77a-te_vms_rtl_Screen_management_manual_Apr88.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P6A/aa-la78a-te_guide_to_vms_file_applications_Apr88.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P6A/aa-la79a-te_VMS_Analyze_RMS_File_Utility_Manual.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P6A/aa-la81a-te_VMS_File_Definition_Language_Facility_Manual.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P6A/aa-la82a-te_VMS_National_Character_Set_Utility_Manual.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P6B/aa-la83a-te.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P6B/aa-la83a-te_vms_record_management_services_reference_manual_apr88.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P7A/p7a_aa-la84a-te_VMS_IO_Users_Reference_Manual_Part 1_apr88.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P7A/p7a_aa-la85a-ate_VMS_IO_Users_Reference_Manual_Part 2_Apr88.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P7B/aa-la86a-te_VMS_Delta_XDelta_Utility_Manual.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P7B/aa-la87a-te_VMS_System_Dump_Analyzer_Utility_Manual.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P8/aa-la88a-te_VMS_Device_Support_Apr88.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P9/aa-la89a-te_VAX_MACRO_and_Instruction_Set_Reference_Manual/p9_aa-la89a-te_b.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/P9/aa-la89a-te_VAX_MACRO_and_Instruction_Set_Reference_Manual/p9_aa-la89a-te_f.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U1/AA-LA01A-TE_VMS_Master_Index_Apr88.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U1/AA-LA02A-TE_VMS_General_User_Master_Index_Apr88.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U1/AA-LA03A-TE_VMS_Glossary_Apr88.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U2A/u2a_aa-la04a-te_Introduction_to_VMS_apr88.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U2A/u2a_aa-la05a-te_Guide_to_Using_VMS_apr88.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U2A/u2a_aa-la06a-te_Guide_to_VMS_Files_and_Devices_apr88.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U2B/u2b_aa-la07a-te_VMS_Mail_Utility_Manual.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U2B/u2b_aa-la08a-te_VMS_Phone_Utility_Manual.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U2B/u2b_aa-la09a-te_VMS_Sort_Merge_Utility_Manual.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U3/u3_aa-la10a-te_VMS_DCL_Concepts_Manual.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U3/u3_aa-la11a-te_Guide_to_Using_VMS_Command_Procedures.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U4/u4_aa-la12a-te_VMS_DCL_Dictionary.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U5A/u5a_aa-la13a-te_Guide_to_VMS_Text_Processing.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U5A/u5a_aa-la16a-te_VAX_EDT_Reference_Manual.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U5B/aa-la14a-te_VMS_Text_Processing_Utility_Manual_front.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U5B/aa-la14b-te_VMS_Text_Processing_Utility_Manual_V5.2.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U5B/u5b_aa-ng62a-te_EVE_Reference_Manual_jun89.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U5C/u5c_aa-la15a-te_VAX_DIGITAL_Standard_Runoff_Reference_Manual_apr88.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U6A/u6a_aa-la17a-te_VMS_System_Messages_and_Recovery_Procedures_Reference_Manual_Part_1.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/U6B/u6b_aa-la18a-te_VMS_System_Messages_and_Recovery_Procedures_Reference_Manual_Part_2.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/aa-la87a-te_vms5.0sysDmp_apr88.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/aa-lb22a-te_VMS_Version_5.0_Release_Notes_Apr88.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/aa-lb25a-te_VMS_5.0_Obsolete_Features_Manual_Apr88.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/aa-lb34a-te_VAXstation_2000_Installation_Apr88.tar >> ./VMS_5.0_Apr88/ey-d209e-sg-0001.tar >> >> >> > I should clarify that to say that I've got a Panasonic KV-S3065W scanner and I had planned on scanning the documentation sets since I didn't see it online anywhere.? But that effort would be moot now. -- John H. Reinhardt From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Sat Aug 24 15:45:25 2019 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 15:45:25 -0500 Subject: Raspberry Pi write cycles In-Reply-To: <7wr25bf2yl.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <83E4641D-2E49-429A-9D20-1D48FD8C3170@avanthar.com> <7wr25bf2yl.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: On 8/24/2019 2:16 AM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote: > Zane Healy wrote: >> I use RPi3?s for PDP-10 and DPS-8 emulation, I haven?t tried them for >> VAX emulation. I would like to try a RPi4 for VAX emulation. > I have an RPi4 running ITS. I attached a fast USB3 memory rather than > running off the SD card. For the full ITS rebuild from scratch it takes > two hours rather, compared to one hour on my Core i7 2.4 GHz laptop. > > An RPi2 with slow SD card takes around 24 hours! > I just did a "make all" for SimH on a 1GB Pi 4B using a SanDisk industrial 8GB SD card and it took 75 minutes to build the 75 different emulators.? It has the latest updates to Raspbian Buster. What USB3 thumb drive did you use? -- John H. Reinhardt From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Sat Aug 24 15:56:30 2019 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 21:56:30 +0100 Subject: Too many DEC binders In-Reply-To: <87pnku4chr.fsf@gromit.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87tva73uc4.fsf@gromit.rhwyd.co.uk> <87pnku4chr.fsf@gromit.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <87o90e470h.fsf@gromit.rhwyd.co.uk> I have done some test scans tonight. If anyone has any feedback, now would be a good time to give it, before I spend many more hours scanning. http://aaronsplace.co.uk/private/myscans/ Thanks, Aaron Aaron Jackson writes: > Many thanks to Matt Burke and Al Kassow, I have reduced my list of "need > to scan" to 24 manuals. If anyone has any of these, please let me know > so I can avoid scanning them. > > AA-Y510B-TE Guide to VAX / VMS System Security > AI-Y517A-TE VAX / VMS User's Manual > AA-Z501C-TE VAX / VMS System Services Reference Manual > AA-H501B-TC DECnet/E Network Programming in BASIC-PLUS and BASIC-PLUS-2 > AA-H503B-TC DECnet/E Network Programming in COBOL > AA-Z501C-TE VAX / VMS Run-Time Library Routines Reference Manual > AA-JF88A-TE VAX / VMS Release Notes, Version 4.5 > AA-M269B-TC DECnet/E Release Notes > AA-K714A-TC DECnet/E Network Installation Guide > AA-L266A-TC DECnet/E Network Programming in FORTRAN > AA-L265A-TC DECnet/E Network Programming in MACRO-11 > AA-Z601C-TE VAX / VMS I/O User's Reference Manual: Part II > AA-M539A-TE VAX / VMS Magnetic Tape User Guide > AA-D113C-TE VAX-11 SORT / MERGE User's Guide > AA-Z505C-TE Part II Run-Time Library Routines > AA-KX22A-TE LAT / VMS Management Guide > AA-KX21A-TE VAX / VMS Supplemental Information, Version 4.7 > AD-L034A-28 VAX / VMS System Dispatch November 1985 > AD-LO34A-31 VAX / VMS System Dispatch May 1986 > AD-L034A-27 VAX / VMS System Dispatch September 1985 > AD-L034A-29 VAX / VMS System Dispatch January 1986 > AD-L034A-30 VAX / VMS System Dispatch March 1986 > AD-L034A-26 VAX / VMS System Dispatch July 1985 > AD-L034A-32 VAX / VMS System Dispatch July 1986 > > http://aaronsplace.co.uk/dec-manuals.html This page has been updated to > reflect what has already digitised. > > Thanks, > Aaron > > Aaron Jackson via cctalk writes: > >> I have a full book case of DEC binders, each containing one or more >> manuals. I went through the lot of it this evening and checked to see >> what was on bitsavers. It seems an awful lot of it is not available. I >> cannot bring myself to dispose of any of it until it is digitised, but >> keeping hold of this much paper is not practical for me. >> >> I'm going to try to scan as much as I can. The full list of what I have >> is available at the link below. It is mostly mid 1980's VAX/VMS >> stuff.. If anyone would like one of the manuals for the cost of >> shipping, I'd gladly send it over to you. >> >> http://aaronsplace.co.uk/dec-manuals.html >> >> *** If there is anything you consider a priority in terms of being >> scanned, please let me know and I'll try to do it sooner, rather than >> later. *** >> >> Finally, I'd like to mention that these manuals came from a friend, >> Marc, who passed away early last year. Marc used to be somewhat active >> on this list (more so the #classiccmp IRC channel). A friend of Marc >> will be participating in a walk for the Campaign Against Living >> Miserably (CALM) charity. If anyone is willing to donate (even a small >> amount), it would mean a lot to me. CALM is a charity supporting men who >> suffer from depression - one of the leading killers of men under 45 in >> the UK. >> >> https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/losthourswalk2019inmemoryofmarc >> >> Many thanks, >> Aaron From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Aug 24 16:09:28 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 14:09:28 -0700 Subject: Too many DEC binders In-Reply-To: References: <87tva73uc4.fsf@gromit.rhwyd.co.uk> <705481e9-feac-a2dd-a10d-02a39d11f366@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1a0ee6bd-86cd-7bab-3ae2-476a7c201255@bitsavers.org> On 8/24/19 10:45 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > By the way, what's your position on scanning two-colour printed manuals > like the DTR ones? Not worth keeping the colour for Bitsavers? I'd like to do it for all the multi-color text manuals, but I never came up with a way to map to single shades per color from a png From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Aug 24 16:11:43 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 14:11:43 -0700 Subject: Too many DEC binders In-Reply-To: References: <87tva73uc4.fsf@gromit.rhwyd.co.uk> <705481e9-feac-a2dd-a10d-02a39d11f366@bitsavers.org> <871f5ce1-acc0-8ac7-37be-82e033f7b4f2@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: <48f7e5f6-b06b-52bd-386f-3cc44f4f63ec@bitsavers.org> On 8/24/19 1:38 PM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: > On 8/24/2019 3:30 PM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: >> I'll have to double check, but from the looks of this list I don't need the VAX/VMS Grey Wall that I acquired a couple >> months ago.? It's a nearly pristine set of the V5.0 VAX/VMS documentation set. Some volumes are still sealed in plastic. I'll see about getting those up and checked There is just a lot to do From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Sat Aug 24 16:06:00 2019 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 22:06:00 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Shipping from Europe to USA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01RAMSPJPB5I8WYJ4Q@beyondthepale.ie> John Herron wrote: > > With all of the stories. I don't know if it exists internationally but I > think the moral is get insurance with shipper. > What use is insurance? If the unique machine that you have been searching for for so long it destroyed in shipping, the insurance company pays you less than it's value (they're not going to pay you greater than it's value) in money but does nothing to help you locate another example of the same machine and get it shipped safely to you. Maybe a better moral would be "If you want to make sure it arrives safely, go and get it yourself". Regards, Peter Coghlan. > > On Thu, Aug 22, 2019, 12:31 PM Steven Stengel via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Howdo I ship a 50 pound computer from Europe to the United States? Who > > has good rates? > > Thanks- > > Steve > > > > > > > From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Sat Aug 24 16:29:49 2019 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 16:29:49 -0500 Subject: Too many DEC binders In-Reply-To: <48f7e5f6-b06b-52bd-386f-3cc44f4f63ec@bitsavers.org> References: <87tva73uc4.fsf@gromit.rhwyd.co.uk> <705481e9-feac-a2dd-a10d-02a39d11f366@bitsavers.org> <871f5ce1-acc0-8ac7-37be-82e033f7b4f2@thereinhardts.org> <48f7e5f6-b06b-52bd-386f-3cc44f4f63ec@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <09a0d533-b4c9-a4ae-e58a-8d264490baba@thereinhardts.org> On 8/24/2019 4:11 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 8/24/19 1:38 PM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: >> On 8/24/2019 3:30 PM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: >>> I'll have to double check, but from the looks of this list I don't need the VAX/VMS Grey Wall that I acquired a couple >>> months ago.? It's a nearly pristine set of the V5.0 VAX/VMS documentation set. Some volumes are still sealed in plastic. > I'll see about getting those up and checked > There is just a lot to do > > No hurry, Al.? I tend to work more with the more modern versions - VAX 7.3 and Alpha/Integrity 8.x.? I just saw them on Ebay, checked to see if they had been archived anywhere and didn't see them in the usual places and didn't want them lost. That you have them already scanned, just awaiting that precious time is fine with me. I have some RSX-11M manuals coming next week. I think they are not online, but I won't know for sure until they arrive. -- John H. Reinhardt From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Sat Aug 24 16:35:19 2019 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 16:35:19 -0500 Subject: Too many DEC binders In-Reply-To: <87o90e470h.fsf@gromit.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87tva73uc4.fsf@gromit.rhwyd.co.uk> <87pnku4chr.fsf@gromit.rhwyd.co.uk> <87o90e470h.fsf@gromit.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <478c1399-7870-3b8e-d682-1eefc12a9185@thereinhardts.org> On 8/24/2019 3:56 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: > I have done some test scans tonight. If anyone has any feedback, now > would be a good time to give it, before I spend many more hours > scanning. > > http://aaronsplace.co.uk/private/myscans/ > > Thanks, > Aaron > I looked at the Error Log Utility Manual and it seems good. Download size of 2.6MB is reasonable.? The clarity is good at 100%. I zoomed in to 600% and the character edges were starting to get ragged but as far as I know that should be good. I shrunk down to 50% and they were a little hard to read but I'm on a Mac using Preview and that happens to all documents as far as I can tell.? I haven't checked with Adobe. The colors seemed good, too.? The covers were good and the red highlights inside were legible. -- John H. Reinhardt From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Aug 24 18:32:44 2019 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 19:32:44 -0400 Subject: Processing two-colour printed manuals - was Re: Too many DEC binders In-Reply-To: <1a0ee6bd-86cd-7bab-3ae2-476a7c201255@bitsavers.org> References: <87tva73uc4.fsf@gromit.rhwyd.co.uk> <705481e9-feac-a2dd-a10d-02a39d11f366@bitsavers.org> <1a0ee6bd-86cd-7bab-3ae2-476a7c201255@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 2019-08-24 5:09 p.m., Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 8/24/19 10:45 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > >> By the way, what's your position on scanning two-colour printed manuals >> like the DTR ones? Not worth keeping the colour for Bitsavers? > > I'd like to do it for all the multi-color text manuals, but I never came up with a way > to map to single shades per color from a png > > > Have you looked at Matt Zucker's noteshrink? Not exactly what you're asking, but still possibly useful for duotone work: https://github.com/mzucker/noteshrink I did some brainstorming with Aaron (OP) recently and I think it would be possible to do a good isolation of the second colour, automatically. Might hack something up because the DATATRIEVE stuff is all printed in 2 inks. (Assuming noteshrink isn't good enough.) --Toby From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sat Aug 24 19:18:45 2019 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 19:18:45 -0500 Subject: ADM-3A question Message-ID: Today I got home and my Mouser order had arrived. I soldered in the new 6-position DIP switch and popped a new 1488 in the socket. Nice RS232 data coming out... for about 10 seconds, then the transmit data line went to around +2 volts and stayed there. WTF. Tried another one, same thing. Went back to the first new chip, same thing - so it's not blown (and maybe the old one wasn't either). OK, it has to be the power supplies. Again. Sure enough, +12 was sinking slowly until it was near zero at which point the RS232 output basically went floating... This looked familiar and it didn't take long to discover that the CT on the transformer for the + and - 12 volt supplies was open again!! This time it was the wire from the transformer broken as it entered the Molex connector. Fixed that, back in business. I am amazed that none of the epoxy drop tantalums on the high leg with the open neutral have blown. Maybe they're open circuit :) Also I don't know what gorilla at the salvage place was connecting/disconnecting until he found a combo of base, board and monitor that worked. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Aug 24 22:03:55 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 22:03:55 -0500 Subject: Shipping from Europe to USA In-Reply-To: <01RAMSPJPB5I8WYJ4Q@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01RAMSPJPB5I8WYJ4Q@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <5D61FA9B.2080405@pico-systems.com> On 08/24/2019 04:06 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > What use is insurance? If the unique machine that you have been searching for > for so long it destroyed in shipping, the insurance company pays you less > than it's value It seems shippers have some label or something that identifies high-value packages, and if one gets damaged, some manager comes down hard on the person who did it. So, packages that are insured for higher values are USUALLY treated with greater care. Accidents can happen, of course. There also seems to be a BIG difference in the usual level of care provided by different shippers. I have had several things smashed by UPS, some of them REALLY took a lot of effort to smash. I have NEVER had even the SLIGHTEST damage with FedEx, even their ground service. This could just be statistical chance, but I don't think so. I also had several international shipments with the US Post Office just totally disappear if I forgot to insure them. Never had one damaged or lost if insured. Jon From shadoooo at gmail.com Sun Aug 25 02:43:02 2019 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 09:43:02 +0200 Subject: Too many DEC binders In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, I also have a bunch of manuals, mainly for rt11, which aren't available in bitsavers. I always thought of bitsavers as the "whole" archive for DEC stuff, however time ago, sorting these manuals, I found they where available only on Manx or Antonio Carlini's archive. Many manuals then are available on other sites, etc Now the question: why collected manuals from other sites couldn't be added to bitsavers too? Thanks Andrea From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Aug 25 04:05:36 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 05:05:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Shipping from Europe to USA Message-ID: <20190825090536.5613718C104@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jon Elson > I have NEVER had even the SLIGHTEST damage with FedEx, even their > ground service. This could just be statistical chance This. I once had FexEx Ground destroy the entire packaging of a shipment (one of those rigid plastic tubs, sealed closed with those tension tapes) so badly they had to build entirely new packaging for it. Assume _all_ shippers will throw your item across the room, and pack accordingly - because they will. Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Aug 25 07:42:41 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 05:42:41 -0700 Subject: Too many DEC binders In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <610fb8ce-37c1-e3f3-42f3-a185de58f020@bitsavers.org> On 8/25/19 12:43 AM, shadoooo via cctalk wrote: > why collected manuals from other sites couldn't be added > to bitsavers too? With a few exceptions, I don't troll other sites for content. I don't even have time to deal with all of my paper. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Aug 25 09:18:39 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 10:18:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Too many DEC binders Message-ID: <20190825141839.E1BC018C108@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Al Kossow > I don't even have time to deal with all of my paper. Understood. A huge 'thank you' for all the work you have put in, to saving and making available a massive quantity of old documentation. Given that we have stuff scattered across a number of sites, rather than bringing it all to one location, maybe we just need a single site with pointers to them all. Oh, wait... I guess I should see if Richard Thomson (he's the last name on: http://manx-docs.org/about.php so I assume it's still him) needs/could use help updating Manx content; anyone know how to reach him (no contact info anywhere on the site)? I guess if that fails, I could include links to online manuals in CHWiki pages. That would be a massive campaign, even just the PDP-11 hardware and PDP-10 hardware (all I'd want to do) would be weeks of works. There's no way I could do all the other stuff on Bitsavers (e.g. PDP-10, -11 software, all the VAX stuff - and that's just DEC). Noel From david at kdbarto.org Sun Aug 25 10:04:32 2019 From: david at kdbarto.org (David) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 08:04:32 -0700 Subject: Mac SE (HD/FD) and 40GB APS Tech HDD Message-ID: <36B18DA5-990E-4360-9ACF-F74CE24C6935@kdbarto.org> I?ve just come into possession of both of these units. The Mac has a 20MB internal HD and doesn?t startup. There is no happy mac or boot chime. The video is just a single line in the middle of the screen. The HDD spins up and wants to be formatted by any Mac I?ve got that has USB on it. If anyone wants either of these let me know (San Diego area of California). If I hear nothing both will go to the electronic recycler next Saturday. David From tshoppa at wmata.com Sun Aug 25 12:28:15 2019 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 17:28:15 +0000 Subject: Too many DEC binders Message-ID: Starting around the VMS 5.5 era, isn?t anything from then or later on the Condist documentation CD?s? And thus we don?t have to make a priority for scanning? Tim N3QE From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Sun Aug 25 12:34:03 2019 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 18:34:03 +0100 Subject: Too many DEC binders In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87lfvh40ac.fsf@gromit.rhwyd.co.uk> > Starting around the VMS 5.5 era, isn?t anything from then or later on > the Condist documentation CD?s? And thus we don?t have to make a > priority for scanning? The stuff I have is mostly pre 4.5. Aaron From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Sun Aug 25 12:51:40 2019 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 12:51:40 -0500 Subject: Too many DEC binders In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3385a3c3-f277-1fcc-2217-42da6a9cb01b@thereinhardts.org> On 8/25/2019 12:28 PM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk wrote: > Starting around the VMS 5.5 era, isn?t anything from then or later on the Condist documentation CD?s? And thus we don?t have to make a priority for scanning? > > Tim N3QE IIRC, most of the documentation on the ConDists were in DEC's BookReader format.? That might be getting hard to read these days unless you happen to have an OpenVMS machine with DECWindows.? I just looked at my earliest CD - Sept 1995 ODL and except for some of the basic how to use this CD documents (which are in text and PostScript), it's all in BookReader format which means you can't read it on a Mac/Windows/Linux system? You need a OpenVMS or Digital Unix or Ultrix system. I have a smattering of CD sets starting with a 1994 SPL and then up through 2007 VAX and 2010 Alpha.? The ODL sets are available on HPE's site beginning with the 2005 sets through the EOL of various platforms - VAX is 2011, Alpha is 2017, Integrity is ongoing still but coming to an end soon. -- John H. Reinhardt From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Aug 25 12:55:08 2019 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 10:55:08 -0700 Subject: Shipping from Europe to USA In-Reply-To: <20190825090536.5613718C104@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190825090536.5613718C104@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5681FEE3-947F-4387-B90B-271FC6214B84@shiresoft.com> > On Aug 25, 2019, at 2:05 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Jon Elson > >> I have NEVER had even the SLIGHTEST damage with FedEx, even their >> ground service. This could just be statistical chance > > This. I once had FexEx Ground destroy the entire packaging of a shipment (one > of those rigid plastic tubs, sealed closed with those tension tapes) so badly > they had to build entirely new packaging for it. > > Assume _all_ shippers will throw your item across the room, and pack > accordingly - because they will. > I have found that if the item is packed *appropriately* in a crate and then put on a pallet it receives much gentler handling than something that?s been stuffed in a cardboard box. It all comes down to what is the item worth to *you*. Yes, doing what I proposed will cost more in shipping but what is that cost relative to the value (to you) of the item and the difficulty in replacing it? TTFN - Guy From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Aug 25 13:41:03 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 11:41:03 -0700 Subject: Too many DEC binders In-Reply-To: <3385a3c3-f277-1fcc-2217-42da6a9cb01b@thereinhardts.org> References: <3385a3c3-f277-1fcc-2217-42da6a9cb01b@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: <9937f8e1-b38c-1caf-f3e0-2cc2f089f53b@bitsavers.org> On 8/25/19 10:51 AM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: > That might be getting hard to read > these days unless you happen to have an OpenVMS machine with DECWindows. There was a way to translate it to Postscript Copies of the CDs in that form were on the web for a while, haven't looked lately though. From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sun Aug 25 14:56:42 2019 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 20:56:42 +0100 Subject: Too many DEC binders In-Reply-To: <20190825141839.E1BC018C108@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190825141839.E1BC018C108@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 25/08/2019 15:18, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > I guess if that fails, I could include links to online manuals in CHWiki > pages. That would be a massive campaign, even just the PDP-11 hardware and > PDP-10 hardware (all I'd want to do) would be weeks of works. There's no way I > could do all the other stuff on Bitsavers (e.g. PDP-10, -11 software, all the > VAX stuff - and that's just DEC). Well the SQL for original manx database (as maintained by Paul) is (or was available) and something is available in the codeplex download that *might* be the current (or near-current) manx database. You could turn that into links but you'd just have manx-as-a-set-of-wiki-pages. I guess the data would be useful for programmatically checking whether a given manual is known to manx. At that point though I think the best thing to do would be to get the data into manx. Manx feels like the right tool for finding manuals. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sun Aug 25 15:02:23 2019 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 21:02:23 +0100 Subject: Too many DEC binders In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 25/08/2019 18:28, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk wrote: > Starting around the VMS 5.5 era, isn?t anything from then or later on the Condist documentation CD?s? And thus we don?t have to make a priority for scanning? > > Tim N3QE The early ones were just in BOOKREADER format, although that can be converted to PDF (I think). V6.0(ish) onwards was on the DEC website as PDFs, although whether anyone saved complete sets (and all the different version) or not I don't know. The PDFs might also have been on later CONOLDs, but I don't recall for sure. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From shadoooo at gmail.com Sun Aug 25 16:52:08 2019 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2019 23:52:08 +0200 Subject: Too many DEC binders In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, yes, bitsavers and the efforts of Al are invaluable! Considering that I'm referring only to DEC PDFs, but the archive is indeed far more vast then this, the time to maintain all of it is way over what normal people would dedicate to free time jobs... simply that could mean that Al is a superhero itself? :) On the other side, for ignorant people like me, not knowing exactly what and where find the right document, browsing over the sea of documents, and over several sites (without knowing the exact list of addresses either) could be difficult... I really appreciate the folder sorting based of bitsavers, while other archives with a flat list of files with the bare document code (no human readable title) really needs an index at least... I could scan all of my documents with a specified resolution and lossless compression, even if these are duplicates of Carlini's, so these can be added to bitsavers. Could it be considered useful? Thanks Andrea From matt at 9track.net Mon Aug 26 03:12:15 2019 From: matt at 9track.net (Matt Burke) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 09:12:15 +0100 Subject: Too many DEC binders In-Reply-To: <20190825141839.E1BC018C108@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190825141839.E1BC018C108@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 25/08/2019 15:18, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > I guess I should see if Richard Thomson (he's the last name on: > > http://manx-docs.org/about.php > > so I assume it's still him) needs/could use help updating Manx content; anyone > know how to reach him (no contact info anywhere on the site)? > > I think his address is legalize at xmission.com. Let me know how you get on as I would also be willing to help bring Manx up to date. Regards, Matt From matt at 9track.net Mon Aug 26 03:24:06 2019 From: matt at 9track.net (Matt Burke) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 09:24:06 +0100 Subject: Too many DEC binders In-Reply-To: <9937f8e1-b38c-1caf-f3e0-2cc2f089f53b@bitsavers.org> References: <3385a3c3-f277-1fcc-2217-42da6a9cb01b@thereinhardts.org> <9937f8e1-b38c-1caf-f3e0-2cc2f089f53b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 25/08/2019 19:41, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 8/25/19 10:51 AM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: >> That might be getting hard to read >> these days unless you happen to have an OpenVMS machine with DECWindows. > There was a way to translate it to Postscript > Copies of the CDs in that form were on the web for a while, haven't looked lately though. > The site seems to be down at the moment but you can normally read many of the bookreader files online at: http://odl.sysworks.biz/ The documents are translated to HTML format. Here's the most recent capture by archive.org: https://web.archive.org/web/20190504162541/http://odl.sysworks.biz/ Matt From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon Aug 26 03:57:30 2019 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 09:57:30 +0100 Subject: Too many DEC binders In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <074b1628-e3e7-f86b-b97a-bddfd9cf2c24@ntlworld.com> On 25/08/2019 22:52, shadoooo via cctech wrote: > . > > I could scan all of my documents with a specified resolution and lossless > compression, even if these are duplicates of Carlini's, so these can be > added to bitsavers. > Could it be considered useful? If you want to add anything I've scanned to bitsavers (or anywhere else) feel free: you don't need to re-scan them. When I get around to it, I'll find some way of checking what I have against bitsavers' IndexByDate.txt and then upload the differences to somewhere Al can download them all from. I've been planning to do this for about a year now and just don't seem to have found enough free time, so if you get bored waiting, then go ahead ... Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Aug 26 09:58:33 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 10:58:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Too many DEC binders Message-ID: <20190826145833.26A3A18C116@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Antonio Carlini > I think the best thing to do would be to get the data into manx. Manx > feels like the right tool for finding manuals. Yes, I agree. Replicating the data, in a system which isn't organized to hold it (i.e. the CHWiki) would be a desperation move, only to be taken if nothing else was available. > From: Matt Burke > I think his address is legalize at xmission.com. Ah, thanks very much for that; I'll give that a whirl. > Let me know how you get on I will report back here (hopefully there will be news). Noel From useddec at gmail.com Mon Aug 26 23:58:31 2019 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 23:58:31 -0500 Subject: VCFMW DEC items (and compatibles) Message-ID: If anybody wants any DEC items brought up there for pickup or to do any trading, please let me know so I can plan accordingly. If you want to stop by here, please make arrangements ASAP. I plan on going up Friday afternoon and returning Saturday evening. Thanks, Paul From rtomek at ceti.pl Tue Aug 27 12:25:21 2019 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 19:25:21 +0200 Subject: Photos from VCF West 2019 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20190827172521.GA16277@tau1.ceti.pl> On Tue, Aug 06, 2019 at 07:54:21PM +0200, Ed C. via cctalk wrote: > Thanks for sharing! Yes, thanks for sharing. I have finally came to reading this thread (I am of the anonymous time waster type) and I find the photographs very interesting. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Aug 27 19:39:39 2019 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 19:39:39 -0500 Subject: Decaying foam on PCBs Message-ID: <5e74a2dc-5dc3-2837-30cb-d44a14451892@gmail.com> I picked up a couple of HP 5036A logic trainers today, both of which have had goopy decaying foam come into contact on their PCBs. What's effective at removing it? I've only ever had problems with it in locations where I can use things such as citrus-based cleaners, but I'm a bit wary of using those around a PCB. Is regular Dawn/water likely to work? thanks! Jules From davidkcollins2 at gmail.com Tue Aug 27 22:18:25 2019 From: davidkcollins2 at gmail.com (David Collins) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 13:18:25 +1000 Subject: Decaying foam on PCBs In-Reply-To: <5e74a2dc-5dc3-2837-30cb-d44a14451892@gmail.com> References: <5e74a2dc-5dc3-2837-30cb-d44a14451892@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6A60DD00-D2D5-4269-91B4-6CFE3891D4BD@gmail.com> In Australia there?s this product ; https://awareenvironmental.com.au/product/sticky-spot-goo-dissolver/ It?s citrus based but I haven?t had any bad effects on PCBs. It does affect some styrene plastics but in general it?s safe and very effective. If you aren?t in Aus, a similar citrus based product should work - just my experience. David Collins HP Computer Museum > On 28 Aug 2019, at 10:39 am, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > > I picked up a couple of HP 5036A logic trainers today, both of which have had goopy decaying foam come into contact on their PCBs. What's effective at removing it? I've only ever had problems with it in locations where I can use things such as citrus-based cleaners, but I'm a bit wary of using those around a PCB. Is regular Dawn/water likely to work? > > thanks! > > Jules > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 27 22:38:58 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2019 20:38:58 -0700 Subject: Decaying foam on PCBs In-Reply-To: <6A60DD00-D2D5-4269-91B4-6CFE3891D4BD@gmail.com> References: <5e74a2dc-5dc3-2837-30cb-d44a14451892@gmail.com> <6A60DD00-D2D5-4269-91B4-6CFE3891D4BD@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 8/27/19 8:18 PM, David Collins via cctalk wrote: > In Australia there?s this product ; > > https://awareenvironmental.com.au/product/sticky-spot-goo-dissolver/ > > It?s citrus based but I haven?t had any bad effects on PCBs. It does affect some styrene plastics but in general it?s safe and very effective. > > If you aren?t in Aus, a similar citrus based product should work - just my experience. > I'd probably just use 91% isopropanol. No water to speak of, doesn't bother plastics--and cheap. If this were the 1970s, I'd suggest Freon TF. --Chuck From marvin at west.net Wed Aug 28 03:15:48 2019 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 01:15:48 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 Fireworks Message-ID: I'm just curious how many people have powered up their TRS-80 computers, and ended up with a bang and a room filled with smoke? So far, I've gotten the fireworks in two out of two TRS-80s (model 3 and 4) when they were powered up. In both cases, the problem was with the main line filter capacitor mounted on one of the power supplies. The computers continued to work which was my first clue the problem was not serious :). Is this a normal problem with these older computers? I'm used to seeing the electrolytics give problems, but this is the first time I've seen one of the X type line filter caps blow. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Aug 28 03:32:48 2019 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 09:32:48 +0100 Subject: TRS-80 Fireworks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00c301d55d7b$2d726550$88572ff0$@ntlworld.com> I have had this problem in various PSUs, particularly in MicroVAXen. In my case replacing them has been fairly straightforward. Not had this with my TRS-80 (Model 1) though. I think it is a fairly common problem. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Marvin Johnston > via cctalk > Sent: 28 August 2019 09:16 > To: ClassicCmp > Subject: TRS-80 Fireworks > > I'm just curious how many people have powered up their TRS-80 computers, > and ended up with a bang and a room filled with smoke? > > So far, I've gotten the fireworks in two out of two TRS-80s (model 3 and > 4) when they were powered up. In both cases, the problem was with the > main line filter capacitor mounted on one of the power supplies. The > computers continued to work which was my first clue the problem was not > serious :). > > Is this a normal problem with these older computers? I'm used to seeing the > electrolytics give problems, but this is the first time I've seen one of the X > type line filter caps blow. From matt at 9track.net Wed Aug 28 03:34:05 2019 From: matt at 9track.net (Matt Burke) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 09:34:05 +0100 Subject: TRS-80 Fireworks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3ac8d7d9-00c5-5245-0c0a-fb5a01092bc0@9track.net> On 28/08/2019 09:15, Marvin Johnston via cctalk wrote: > I'm just curious how many people have powered up their TRS-80 > computers, and ended up with a bang and a room filled with smoke? > > So far, I've gotten the fireworks in two out of two TRS-80s (model 3 > and 4) when they were powered up. In both cases, the problem was with > the main line filter capacitor mounted on one of the power supplies. > The computers continued to work which was my first clue the problem > was not serious :). > > Is this a normal problem with these older computers? I'm used to > seeing the electrolytics give problems, but this is the first time > I've seen one of the X type line filter caps blow. This is very common for these paper line filters. I've had the same failure with an Osborne 1, DECserver 200, DELNI and PDP-11/73. There are many more devices that have them; generally anything with an Astec brand power supply. I replace them before even powering up these days. Matt From guykd at optusnet.com.au Wed Aug 28 04:07:21 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 19:07:21 +1000 Subject: TRS-80 Fireworks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190828190721.00e4f5b0@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 01:15 AM 28/08/2019 -0700, you wrote: >I'm just curious how many people have powered up their TRS-80 computers, >and ended up with a bang and a room filled with smoke? > >So far, I've gotten the fireworks in two out of two TRS-80s (model 3 and >4) when they were powered up. In both cases, the problem was with the >main line filter capacitor mounted on one of the power supplies. The >computers continued to work which was my first clue the problem was not >serious :). > >Is this a normal problem with these older computers? I'm used to seeing >the electrolytics give problems, but this is the first time I've seen >one of the X type line filter caps blow. An extremely common problem with all old electronics from around that era. The mains filter caps are commonly 'RIFA' brand metalized polyester film, encapsulated in a clear-honey-coloured resin. The problem is that the resin embrittles and shrinks with age, resulting in many small cracks. (And sometimes large pieces falling off.) The cracks let in moisture, which absorbs into the insulating film. When that inevitably fails the resulting arc eats away at the thin metalization film, vaporizing the adjacent plastic into foul-smelling greasy smoke. Often not enough mains current gets drawn to trip the breaker, so the arcing ruin may go on for some seconds - producing lots of smoke and stink. Also commonly destroying the component value markings, so you have to guess about a replacement. HP 62xx series bench power supplies have some RIFA caps and a circuit board inside a closed metal box containing the mains pre-regulator TRIAC. When those RIFAs blow the smoke condenses on everything inside the box. Cleaning that mess is really a pain. RIFA caps may be the most hated components in electronics. Even worse than dipped tantalums, popped electrolytics, and decaying urethane foam. Replace on sight. Before trying a power up. I was recently given a large pile of NIB (old) switchmode supplies of various sizes, all the same manufacturer. About a third have RIFA mains filter caps. Grrr... Guy From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Wed Aug 28 04:05:39 2019 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 10:05:39 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: TRS-80 Fireworks In-Reply-To: <3ac8d7d9-00c5-5245-0c0a-fb5a01092bc0@9track.net> References: Message-ID: <01RAROEBJ1U08WYJ4Q@beyondthepale.ie> Matt wrote: > On 28/08/2019 09:15, Marvin Johnston via cctalk wrote: > > I'm just curious how many people have powered up their TRS-80 > > computers, and ended up with a bang and a room filled with smoke? > > > > So far, I've gotten the fireworks in two out of two TRS-80s (model 3 > > and 4) when they were powered up. In both cases, the problem was with > > the main line filter capacitor mounted on one of the power supplies. > > The computers continued to work which was my first clue the problem > > was not serious :). > > > > Is this a normal problem with these older computers? I'm used to > > seeing the electrolytics give problems, but this is the first time > > I've seen one of the X type line filter caps blow. > > This is very common for these paper line filters. I've had the same > failure with an Osborne 1, DECserver 200, DELNI and PDP-11/73. There are > many more devices that have them; generally anything with an Astec brand > power supply. I replace them before even powering up these days. > I've had several instances of it with BBC Micros, also containing Astec brand power supplies. Typically, when switched on after a long period of idleness, the machine works fine for minutes to hours, then there is a quiet pop followed by a whoosing noise and smoke starts pouring of the mains filter capacitor while the machine continues to work away quite happily. Regards Peter Coghlan. From abuse at cabal.org.uk Wed Aug 28 05:10:23 2019 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 12:10:23 +0200 Subject: TRS-80 Fireworks In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190828190721.00e4f5b0@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20190828190721.00e4f5b0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <20190828101023.GA16811@mooli.org.uk> On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 07:07:21PM +1000, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: [...] > RIFA caps may be the most hated components in electronics. Even worse than dipped > tantalums, popped electrolytics, and decaying urethane foam. Amiga collectors would say "batteries", since Commodore selected a brand of rechargable cells which leaked board-eating acid. This also affected the Acorn Archimedes, but only posh kids had those. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Aug 28 05:46:11 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 11:46:11 +0100 Subject: TRS-80 Fireworks In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190828190721.00e4f5b0@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20190828190721.00e4f5b0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <19ea01d55d8d$cee147a0$6ca3d6e0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Guy Dunphy via > cctalk > Sent: 28 August 2019 10:07 > To: Marvin Johnston ; General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: TRS-80 Fireworks > > At 01:15 AM 28/08/2019 -0700, you wrote: > >I'm just curious how many people have powered up their TRS-80 > >computers, and ended up with a bang and a room filled with smoke? > > > >So far, I've gotten the fireworks in two out of two TRS-80s (model 3 > >and > >4) when they were powered up. In both cases, the problem was with the > >main line filter capacitor mounted on one of the power supplies. The > >computers continued to work which was my first clue the problem was not > >serious :). > > > >Is this a normal problem with these older computers? I'm used to seeing > >the electrolytics give problems, but this is the first time I've seen > >one of the X type line filter caps blow. > In the UK it affects the BBC Model B models. Plenty of kits on E-Bay to fix. Often cheaper than a single cap. Dave > > An extremely common problem with all old electronics from around that era. > The mains filter caps are commonly 'RIFA' brand metalized polyester film, > encapsulated in a clear-honey-coloured resin. > The problem is that the resin embrittles and shrinks with age, resulting in many > small cracks. (And sometimes large pieces falling off.) The cracks let in > moisture, which absorbs into the insulating film. > When that inevitably fails the resulting arc eats away at the thin metalization > film, vaporizing the adjacent plastic into foul-smelling greasy smoke. Often not > enough mains current gets drawn to trip the breaker, so the arcing ruin may go > on for some seconds - producing lots of smoke and stink. Also commonly > destroying the component value markings, so you have to guess about a > replacement. > > HP 62xx series bench power supplies have some RIFA caps and a circuit board > inside a closed metal box containing the mains pre-regulator TRIAC. When > those RIFAs blow the smoke condenses on everything inside the box. Cleaning > that mess is really a pain. > > RIFA caps may be the most hated components in electronics. Even worse than > dipped tantalums, popped electrolytics, and decaying urethane foam. > > Replace on sight. Before trying a power up. > > I was recently given a large pile of NIB (old) switchmode supplies of various > sizes, all the same manufacturer. About a third have RIFA mains filter caps. > Grrr... > > Guy From pete at pski.net Wed Aug 28 06:35:06 2019 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 07:35:06 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 Fireworks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <60FEE9A0-C610-4567-8178-AA3838DD213A@pski.net> > On Aug 28, 2019, at 4:15 AM, Marvin Johnston via cctalk wrote: > > I'm just curious how many people have powered up their TRS-80 computers, and ended up with a bang and a room filled with smoke? > > So far, I've gotten the fireworks in two out of two TRS-80s (model 3 and 4) when they were powered up. In both cases, the problem was with the main line filter capacitor mounted on one of the power supplies. The computers continued to work which was my first clue the problem was not serious :). > > Is this a normal problem with these older computers? I'm used to seeing the electrolytics give problems, but this is the first time I've seen one of the X type line filter caps blow. This is well known issue on all Models of TRS-80, except the Model I. In fact, it is almost guaranteed that your power supply main Rifa filter capacitor will blow within a few minutes of when you first power up one of these TRS-80s after sitting for years if you have the original caps. So much so that I was able to record one fail in spectacular fashion. https://youtu.be/njbwdbcfXjc From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Aug 28 06:44:23 2019 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 06:44:23 -0500 Subject: Decaying foam on PCBs In-Reply-To: References: <5e74a2dc-5dc3-2837-30cb-d44a14451892@gmail.com> <6A60DD00-D2D5-4269-91B4-6CFE3891D4BD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8152f530-14cf-3e00-f542-c83d17e4fd09@gmail.com> On 8/27/19 10:38 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I'd probably just use 91% isopropanol. No water to speak of, doesn't > bother plastics--and cheap. I do normally use it on boards for general cleaning - I was just assuming that this nasty sticky foam would be too much for it. I'll give it a go, though... J. From lproven at gmail.com Wed Aug 28 06:57:45 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 13:57:45 +0200 Subject: TRS-80 Fireworks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Aug 2019 at 10:16, Marvin Johnston via cctalk wrote: > > I'm just curious how many people have powered up their TRS-80 computers, > and ended up with a bang and a room filled with smoke? "They all do that, sir." Computers older than 20y or so, that is. :-( -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Aug 28 07:34:54 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 08:34:54 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 Fireworks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 4:16 AM Marvin Johnston via cctalk wrote: > I'm just curious how many people have powered up their TRS-80 computers, > and ended up with a bang and a room filled with smoke? I've had identical experiences with Rifa caps as others here. One thing about them, you don't need to be powered on. The caps are usually on the hot side of the power switch. I've had a MicroPDP-11 and a Commodore D9060 sizzle when plugged in but powered off. > Is this a normal problem with these older computers? I'm used to seeing > the electrolytics give problems, but this is the first time I've seen > one of the X type line filter caps blow. Rifa caps are notorious for reasons already described. Found in a lot of 1980s gear, TRS-80, Commodore, DEC... Replace on sight. -ethan From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Aug 28 08:12:23 2019 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 09:12:23 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 Fireworks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 28, 2019, 8:35 AM Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 4:16 AM Marvin Johnston via cctalk > wrote: > > I'm just curious how many people have powered up their TRS-80 computers, > > and ended up with a bang and a room filled with smoke? > Trs 80 III / 4 absolutely yes these pop. I call it banana pancakes time because that is what it kind of smells like. At the vcf east we have an informal recocognition award titled "first to smoke" that usually goes to the first exhibitor who loses a RIFA cap during set up or on public display. Bill > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Aug 28 08:16:02 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 13:16:02 +0000 Subject: TRS-80 Fireworks In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: It was at the Maker Faire, 1 year ago, we had these caps blow on 2 Apple II's. One ran for less than an hour before going and the other ran for a day and the next day it also blew ( it was my Apple II ). It now lives without the capacitor. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Ethan Dicks via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2019 5:34 AM To: Marvin Johnston ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: TRS-80 Fireworks On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 4:16 AM Marvin Johnston via cctalk wrote: > I'm just curious how many people have powered up their TRS-80 computers, > and ended up with a bang and a room filled with smoke? I've had identical experiences with Rifa caps as others here. One thing about them, you don't need to be powered on. The caps are usually on the hot side of the power switch. I've had a MicroPDP-11 and a Commodore D9060 sizzle when plugged in but powered off. > Is this a normal problem with these older computers? I'm used to seeing > the electrolytics give problems, but this is the first time I've seen > one of the X type line filter caps blow. Rifa caps are notorious for reasons already described. Found in a lot of 1980s gear, TRS-80, Commodore, DEC... Replace on sight. -ethan From marvin at west.net Wed Aug 28 08:34:15 2019 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 06:34:15 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 Fireworks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks everyone for the feedback... I had no idea. I'll be putting in an order today with Digi-key (P/N 399-7483-ND) for probably around 25+ caps or so since I have at least that many TRS-80 2s, 3s, 4s. I guess my only question is are there other similar caps that also need to be replaced? I'm well aware of the electrolytics and have that project on the back burner right now (about 10 Model 100s to repair.) It is nice that they are pretty trivial to replace! Marvin On 8/28/2019 5:34 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 4:16 AM Marvin Johnston via cctalk > wrote: >> I'm just curious how many people have powered up their TRS-80 computers, >> and ended up with a bang and a room filled with smoke? > > I've had identical experiences with Rifa caps as others here. One > thing about them, you don't need to be powered on. The caps are > usually on the hot side of the power switch. I've had a MicroPDP-11 > and a Commodore D9060 sizzle when plugged in but powered off. > >> Is this a normal problem with these older computers? I'm used to seeing >> the electrolytics give problems, but this is the first time I've seen >> one of the X type line filter caps blow. > > Rifa caps are notorious for reasons already described. > > Found in a lot of 1980s gear, TRS-80, Commodore, DEC... Replace on sight. > > -ethan > From w2hx at w2hx.com Wed Aug 28 08:50:39 2019 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 13:50:39 +0000 Subject: TRS-80 Fireworks In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <1567000239542.21002@w2hx.com> Be sure to read this article. The caps used in this capacity (pun intended) are specialized... https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/technical-articles/safety-capacitor-class-x-and-class-y-capacitors/ ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Marvin Johnston via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2019 9:34 AM To: Ethan Dicks; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: TRS-80 Fireworks Thanks everyone for the feedback... I had no idea. I'll be putting in an order today with Digi-key (P/N 399-7483-ND) for probably around 25+ caps or so since I have at least that many TRS-80 2s, 3s, 4s. I guess my only question is are there other similar caps that also need to be replaced? I'm well aware of the electrolytics and have that project on the back burner right now (about 10 Model 100s to repair.) It is nice that they are pretty trivial to replace! Marvin On 8/28/2019 5:34 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 4:16 AM Marvin Johnston via cctalk > wrote: >> I'm just curious how many people have powered up their TRS-80 computers, >> and ended up with a bang and a room filled with smoke? > > I've had identical experiences with Rifa caps as others here. One > thing about them, you don't need to be powered on. The caps are > usually on the hot side of the power switch. I've had a MicroPDP-11 > and a Commodore D9060 sizzle when plugged in but powered off. > >> Is this a normal problem with these older computers? I'm used to seeing >> the electrolytics give problems, but this is the first time I've seen >> one of the X type line filter caps blow. > > Rifa caps are notorious for reasons already described. > > Found in a lot of 1980s gear, TRS-80, Commodore, DEC... Replace on sight. > > -ethan > From pete at pski.net Wed Aug 28 08:59:09 2019 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 09:59:09 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 Fireworks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D6B05EB-93A4-4B72-8362-40761A111C68@pski.net> > On Aug 28, 2019, at 9:34 AM, Marvin Johnston via cctalk wrote: > > Thanks everyone for the feedback... I had no idea. I'll be putting in an order today with Digi-key (P/N 399-7483-ND) for probably around 25+ caps or so since I have at least that many TRS-80 2s, 3s, 4s. > > I guess my only question is are there other similar caps that also need to be replaced? I'm well aware of the electrolytics and have that project on the back burner right now (about 10 Model 100s to repair.) It is nice that they are pretty trivial to replace! > > Marvin > I?ve had very few problems with electrolytics in the many TRS-80s I?ve worked on. It seems to be one of the places where Tandy did not cheap out. There are some tantalum capacitors to be found in TRS-80s. These have a tendency to fail to short so I am wary of them but still, I would probably not replace any unless they failed. From marvin at west.net Wed Aug 28 09:03:29 2019 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 07:03:29 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 Fireworks In-Reply-To: <1567000239542.21002@w2hx.com> References: <1567000239542.21002@w2hx.com> Message-ID: <08d989a7-180b-1801-7609-544fecf7803a@west.net> The article I found online was: http://www.akhara.com/trs-80/psrepair/index.html But the reference you posted gave me some excellent perspective on the what is what and why :)! Marvin On 8/28/2019 6:50 AM, W2HX wrote: > Be sure to read this article. The caps used in this capacity (pun intended) are specialized... > > https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/technical-articles/safety-capacitor-class-x-and-class-y-capacitors/ > > > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Marvin Johnston via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2019 9:34 AM > To: Ethan Dicks; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: TRS-80 Fireworks > > Thanks everyone for the feedback... I had no idea. I'll be putting in an > order today with Digi-key (P/N 399-7483-ND) for probably around 25+ caps > or so since I have at least that many TRS-80 2s, 3s, 4s. > > I guess my only question is are there other similar caps that also need > to be replaced? I'm well aware of the electrolytics and have that > project on the back burner right now (about 10 Model 100s to repair.) It > is nice that they are pretty trivial to replace! > > Marvin > > > > On 8/28/2019 5:34 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 4:16 AM Marvin Johnston via cctalk >> wrote: >>> I'm just curious how many people have powered up their TRS-80 computers, >>> and ended up with a bang and a room filled with smoke? >> >> I've had identical experiences with Rifa caps as others here. One >> thing about them, you don't need to be powered on. The caps are >> usually on the hot side of the power switch. I've had a MicroPDP-11 >> and a Commodore D9060 sizzle when plugged in but powered off. >> >>> Is this a normal problem with these older computers? I'm used to seeing >>> the electrolytics give problems, but this is the first time I've seen >>> one of the X type line filter caps blow. >> >> Rifa caps are notorious for reasons already described. >> >> Found in a lot of 1980s gear, TRS-80, Commodore, DEC... Replace on sight. >> >> -ethan >> > From marvin at west.net Wed Aug 28 09:10:33 2019 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 07:10:33 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 Fireworks In-Reply-To: <4D6B05EB-93A4-4B72-8362-40761A111C68@pski.net> References: <4D6B05EB-93A4-4B72-8362-40761A111C68@pski.net> Message-ID: <7fa3f177-13bf-2eda-4c94-92e9a049e4b2@west.net> Almost all of my Model 100s (around 8 or so) need to have all of the electrolytics replaced. For some reason, they started leaking and causing a problem with desoldering the bad parts. Upon close examination, the leaking caps can be detected relatively easily. Some information I saw somewhere indicated that the Chinese caps are the worst offenders... they stole the formula but apparently "modified" it slightly ending up with future problems. Some of this information falls into the "I don't know what I don't know" catagory. Nice having the tremendous volume of knowledge here to help out! Marvin On 8/28/2019 6:59 AM, Peter Cetinski wrote: > >> On Aug 28, 2019, at 9:34 AM, Marvin Johnston via cctalk wrote: >> >> Thanks everyone for the feedback... I had no idea. I'll be putting in an order today with Digi-key (P/N 399-7483-ND) for probably around 25+ caps or so since I have at least that many TRS-80 2s, 3s, 4s. >> >> I guess my only question is are there other similar caps that also need to be replaced? I'm well aware of the electrolytics and have that project on the back burner right now (about 10 Model 100s to repair.) It is nice that they are pretty trivial to replace! >> >> Marvin >> > > I?ve had very few problems with electrolytics in the many TRS-80s I?ve worked on. It seems to be one of the places where Tandy did not cheap out. There are some tantalum capacitors to be found in TRS-80s. These have a tendency to fail to short so I am wary of them but still, I would probably not replace any unless they failed. > From pete at pski.net Wed Aug 28 09:51:46 2019 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 10:51:46 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 Fireworks In-Reply-To: <7fa3f177-13bf-2eda-4c94-92e9a049e4b2@west.net> References: <4D6B05EB-93A4-4B72-8362-40761A111C68@pski.net> <7fa3f177-13bf-2eda-4c94-92e9a049e4b2@west.net> Message-ID: > On Aug 28, 2019, at 10:10 AM, Marvin Johnston via cctalk wrote: > > Almost all of my Model 100s (around 8 or so) need to have all of the electrolytics replaced. For some reason, they started leaking and causing a problem with desoldering the bad parts. Upon close examination, the leaking caps can be detected relatively easily. Some information I saw somewhere indicated that the Chinese caps are the worst offenders... they stole the formula but apparently "modified" it slightly ending up with future problems. > > Some of this information falls into the "I don't know what I don't know" catagory. Nice having the tremendous volume of knowledge here to help out! > > Marvin > The 100 was a rebranded Kyocera so maybe they used inferior components compared to the Made in Fort Worth machines. :) From ethan at 757.org Wed Aug 28 11:06:23 2019 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 12:06:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: TRS-80 Fireworks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We were at this HOPE conference in NYC. We were helping with it in those days, so we had some equipment at the ops area. A whole bunch of commotion went down in the OPS area, including someone grabbing a fire extingisher and jumping. Watching this from a-far, we chuckled and I said, "Good thing this doesn't involve us." A few seconds later someone tells me that my TRS-80 model 4 started to let out a bunch of magic smoke. I mention it to one of the VCF'ers that was there. I'm pretty sure it was Glitch. He is like, "Oh that's the rice paper capacitor at postiion C103 or something. A noise filter." "Do you work on these often?" I reply. I figured this was the ninja of TRS-80s or something. "No, pretty much never" he says. Now I'm twice as confused. But whatever. We open the thing up and it is the exact capacitor he mentioned. We just rmeoved it. And I'm still confused as how he knew the exact capacitor that went off the top of his head. -- : Ethan O'Toole From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Wed Aug 28 11:23:41 2019 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 17:23:41 +0100 Subject: TRS-80 Fireworks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 5:06 PM Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: > > > We were at this HOPE conference in NYC. We were helping with it in those > days, so we had some equipment at the ops area. A whole bunch of commotion > went down in the OPS area, including someone grabbing a fire extingisher > and jumping. > > Watching this from a-far, we chuckled and I said, "Good thing this doesn't > involve us." > > A few seconds later someone tells me that my TRS-80 model 4 started to let > out a bunch of magic smoke. > > I mention it to one of the VCF'ers that was there. I'm pretty sure it was > Glitch. He is like, "Oh that's the rice paper capacitor at postiion C103 > or something. A noise filter." > > "Do you work on these often?" I reply. I figured this was the ninja of > TRS-80s or something. "No, pretty much never" he says. > > Now I'm twice as confused. But whatever. We open the thing up and it is > the exact capacitor he mentioned. We just rmeoved it. And I'm still > confused as how he knew the exact capacitor that went off the top of his > head. > FWIW my Model 3 and Model 4 have done just that. As did my Acorn Cambridge when I was setting it up for a demonstration about a month ago. It's a common failure in all sorts of equipment, from all manufacurers. Don't think that Radio Shack are using inferior components here, I've had HP and Tektronix units do the same thing. Although I don't replace components for fun, I normally replace all the capacitors in the mains filter (class X across the mains, class Y from either side of the mains to earth ground). The class Y ones don't normally fail in this way, but.... As for knowing which capacitor it was even without familiarity with the unit. The smell and smoke are quite distinctive. And the macbine normally keeps on running, indicating a mains filter problem most of the time. Now for the secret... The mains filter is the first stage of the power supply. So it has the lowest numbered capacitors. There's normally a filter choke unit with a capacitor across the mains on each side. And a pair of capacitors on one side of that from each mains line to ground. So they are likely to be C1...C4 or C101...C104 or something like that. So guess 'C103 or thereabouts' and you won't be far off :-) -tony From ethan at 757.org Wed Aug 28 11:30:36 2019 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 12:30:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: TRS-80 Fireworks In-Reply-To: <7fa3f177-13bf-2eda-4c94-92e9a049e4b2@west.net> References: <4D6B05EB-93A4-4B72-8362-40761A111C68@pski.net> <7fa3f177-13bf-2eda-4c94-92e9a049e4b2@west.net> Message-ID: > indicated that the Chinese caps are the worst offenders... they stole the > formula but apparently "modified" it slightly ending up with future problems. That was a while ago, and post-TRS-80 era. > Some of this information falls into the "I don't know what I don't know" > catagory. Nice having the tremendous volume of knowledge here to help out! Digikey, mouser, avnet, newark, etc.... and buy Pansonic or Nichicon 105 degree caps. Should be good for a good while. - Ethan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Aug 28 11:32:57 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 16:32:57 +0000 Subject: Decaying foam on PCBs In-Reply-To: <8152f530-14cf-3e00-f542-c83d17e4fd09@gmail.com> References: <5e74a2dc-5dc3-2837-30cb-d44a14451892@gmail.com> <6A60DD00-D2D5-4269-91B4-6CFE3891D4BD@gmail.com> , <8152f530-14cf-3e00-f542-c83d17e4fd09@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm with Chuck on this one, I've use 91% on the foam gunk and it has worked. A similar product in the US is called GooGone. It can remove stenciled part labels and attacks some plastic. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Jules Richardson via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2019 4:44 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Decaying foam on PCBs On 8/27/19 10:38 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I'd probably just use 91% isopropanol. No water to speak of, doesn't > bother plastics--and cheap. I do normally use it on boards for general cleaning - I was just assuming that this nasty sticky foam would be too much for it. I'll give it a go, though... J. From marvin at west.net Wed Aug 28 12:07:47 2019 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 10:07:47 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 Fireworks Message-ID: While getting ready to order some Kemet caps from Digi-key (same P/N posted earlier), I noticed they all had "RIFA" on them. Is this a big OOPS to order them, or would they be okay? I tend to prefer fixing something once :). Marvin From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Wed Aug 28 12:12:01 2019 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 18:12:01 +0100 Subject: TRS-80 Fireworks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 6:07 PM Marvin Johnston via cctalk wrote: > > While getting ready to order some Kemet caps from Digi-key (same P/N > posted earlier), I noticed they all had "RIFA" on them. Is this a big > OOPS to order them, or would they be okay? > > I tend to prefer fixing something once :). > Some people avoid RIFA capacitors, I don't... A Model 4 is going to be over 30 years old now. And (I assume) the original capacitors have been fine up until now. So if the replacements last as long I'll be fixing it again in another 30 years. I can live with that. -tony From dittman at dittman.net Wed Aug 28 12:37:38 2019 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 12:37:38 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Fireworks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <94db2b60-717d-9b79-1628-061100db502f@dittman.net> I had the cover off one of the newer style Model 12/16B/6000 floppy expansion units (nicknamed "The Toaster"). As my wife walked by one of the Rifa caps blew and a fragment hit her shin. She was not happy. Mostly from the flash and loud pop. It also scared the cat that was sitting on a chair beside me. -- Eric Dittman From pete at pski.net Wed Aug 28 13:30:31 2019 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 14:30:31 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 Fireworks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <83241BCC-7700-4CBE-9F12-D73E10EA3E81@pski.net> > On Aug 28, 2019, at 1:12 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: >> > Some people avoid RIFA capacitors, I don't... > > A Model 4 is going to be over 30 years old now. And (I assume) the > original capacitors > have been fine up until now. So if the replacements last as long I'll > be fixing it again in > another 30 years. I can live with that. > > -tony My sentiments exactly. Plus it keeps it more original. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 28 14:13:19 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 12:13:19 -0700 Subject: Phi-Deck schematics Message-ID: Does anyone have the schematic or manual for the version of the Phi-Deck that had the servoed Universal Motion Control capstan or the remote control box? A picture is up under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/phitech/pictures/phi-deck_motion_ctl.JPG From mechanic_2 at charter.net Wed Aug 28 16:47:36 2019 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 14:47:36 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 Fireworks In-Reply-To: <20190828101023.GA16811@mooli.org.uk> References: <3.0.6.32.20190828190721.00e4f5b0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <20190828101023.GA16811@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <5D66F678.9080400@charter.net> Hello all, S100 based computers have the same problem. I have had the caps in the PS and on the individual boards go boom. Common failure mode for electrolytics and tantalums. GOD Bless, rich! On 8/28/2019 3:10 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 07:07:21PM +1000, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > [...] >> RIFA caps may be the most hated components in electronics. Even worse than dipped >> tantalums, popped electrolytics, and decaying urethane foam. > Amiga collectors would say "batteries", since Commodore selected a brand of > rechargable cells which leaked board-eating acid. This also affected the Acorn > Archimedes, but only posh kids had those. > > From trash80 at internode.on.net Wed Aug 28 17:50:31 2019 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2019 08:50:31 +1000 Subject: TRS-80 Fireworks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <039001d55df2$ff6eadd0$fe4c0970$@internode.on.net> Quite normal - the capacitors dry out after about 30 or 40 years - there's lots of info around on replacing them with a polymer capacitor. I have over 20 TRS-80's with a large contingent of Model 3, 4, 4Ps, 12 and 16s - all had the same issue so if I acquire one now I do a pre-emptive strike before powering up. Kevin Parker 0418 815 527 -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Marvin Johnston via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, 28 August 2019 6:16 PM To: ClassicCmp Subject: TRS-80 Fireworks I'm just curious how many people have powered up their TRS-80 computers, and ended up with a bang and a room filled with smoke? So far, I've gotten the fireworks in two out of two TRS-80s (model 3 and 4) when they were powered up. In both cases, the problem was with the main line filter capacitor mounted on one of the power supplies. The computers continued to work which was my first clue the problem was not serious :). Is this a normal problem with these older computers? I'm used to seeing the electrolytics give problems, but this is the first time I've seen one of the X type line filter caps blow. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Aug 28 23:54:04 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 22:54:04 -0600 Subject: TRS-80 Fireworks In-Reply-To: <039001d55df2$ff6eadd0$fe4c0970$@internode.on.net> References: <039001d55df2$ff6eadd0$fe4c0970$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: On 8/28/2019 4:50 PM, Kevin Parker via cctalk wrote: > Quite normal - the capacitors dry out after about 30 or 40 years - there's lots of info around on replacing them with a polymer capacitor. I have over 20 TRS-80's with a large contingent of Model 3, 4, 4Ps, 12 and 16s - all had the same issue so if I acquire one now I do a pre-emptive strike before powering up. > I suspect, cost cutting is also a factor with consumer vs industial products for part replacement. Ben. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Aug 29 04:25:41 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2019 10:25:41 +0100 Subject: TRS-80 Fireworks In-Reply-To: <039001d55df2$ff6eadd0$fe4c0970$@internode.on.net> References: <039001d55df2$ff6eadd0$fe4c0970$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <251d01d55e4b$ba4a5750$2edf05f0$@gmail.com> Kevin, As I am sure others will say, I believe that the problem with the "X" filter caps is that the case becomes cracked and you get moisture ingress.... Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Kevin Parker via > cctalk > Sent: 28 August 2019 23:51 > To: 'Marvin Johnston' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: TRS-80 Fireworks > > Quite normal - the capacitors dry out after about 30 or 40 years - there's lots > of info around on replacing them with a polymer capacitor. I have over 20 TRS- > 80's with a large contingent of Model 3, 4, 4Ps, 12 and 16s - all had the same > issue so if I acquire one now I do a pre-emptive strike before powering up. > > > Kevin Parker > 0418 815 527 > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Marvin Johnston > via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, 28 August 2019 6:16 PM > To: ClassicCmp > Subject: TRS-80 Fireworks > > I'm just curious how many people have powered up their TRS-80 computers, > and ended up with a bang and a room filled with smoke? > > So far, I've gotten the fireworks in two out of two TRS-80s (model 3 and > 4) when they were powered up. In both cases, the problem was with the main > line filter capacitor mounted on one of the power supplies. The computers > continued to work which was my first clue the problem was not serious :). > > Is this a normal problem with these older computers? I'm used to seeing the > electrolytics give problems, but this is the first time I've seen one of the X type > line filter caps blow. From aperry at snowmoose.com Thu Aug 29 12:03:30 2019 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2019 10:03:30 -0700 Subject: Looking for ... Sun 3 VME slot covers Message-ID: <256A17A1-A7CA-4516-BFFE-EEB58C96EC3E@snowmoose.com> I am looking for 3 VME slot covers for a Sun 3/260. I presume ones from any Sun 3 VME cabinet will work. For shipping purposes, I am in the Seattle area. alan From aperry at snowmoose.com Thu Aug 29 13:08:40 2019 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2019 11:08:40 -0700 Subject: Looking for ... Sun 3 VME slot covers In-Reply-To: <256A17A1-A7CA-4516-BFFE-EEB58C96EC3E@snowmoose.com> References: <256A17A1-A7CA-4516-BFFE-EEB58C96EC3E@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <99E19C9E-7232-4389-8B74-9D71323B73A8@snowmoose.com> Also, are the machine screws that hold these covers on metrics? > On Aug 29, 2019, at 10:03, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > > > > I am looking for 3 VME slot covers for a Sun 3/260. I presume ones from any Sun 3 VME cabinet will work. > > For shipping purposes, I am in the Seattle area. > > alan > > From aperry at snowmoose.com Thu Aug 29 18:53:37 2019 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2019 16:53:37 -0700 Subject: SMD disks Message-ID: My Sun 3/260 came with a pair of 8-inch SMD disks in a separate cabinet. 1. Anyone have a pointer to docs that describe cabling and configuring SMD disks? My Google-fu has failed here. 2. The system came with no cables (external cables between cabinets). Are these standard cables or will they be Sun-specific? 3. The system "ran when parked" about a dozen years ago, but it was left in an open barn after that. How likely is it that the disks will work and be readable? One is a Fujitsu M2333; don't recall what they other one is. alan From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Aug 29 23:17:32 2019 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2019 21:17:32 -0700 Subject: SMD disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 4:53 PM Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > > My Sun 3/260 came with a pair of 8-inch SMD disks in a separate cabinet. > > 1. Anyone have a pointer to docs that describe cabling and configuring > SMD disks? My Google-fu has failed here. > > 2. The system came with no cables (external cables between cabinets). > Are these standard cables or will they be Sun-specific? > > 3. The system "ran when parked" about a dozen years ago, but it was left > in an open barn after that. How likely is it that the disks will work > and be readable? One is a Fujitsu M2333; don't recall what they other > one is. > > alan It has been over 5 years now since I had a Sun 4/280. I gave that away to someone else on the list. That system had an Xylogics 7053 SMD controller with a couple of Hitachi 900MB DK815-10 SMD-E ~8-inch drives. I forget the details now. >From a quick look online the Xylogics 7053 SMD controller has a CMD port, and a DATA 0,1 and a DATA 2,3 port. If I remember right the CMD port was cabled to the CMD in port of the first drive, then the CMD out port of the first drive was cabled to the CMD in port of the second drive, then the CMD out port of the second drive was terminated. The DATA 0,1 port must have had a Y-cable that was split to the DATA ports of each drive. There were other Xylogics SMD controllers as well. Which controller do you have in your system? From aperry at snowmoose.com Thu Aug 29 23:27:12 2019 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2019 21:27:12 -0700 Subject: SMD disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <440ef547-7be2-3485-194b-ef013c4f9612@snowmoose.com> On 8/29/19 9:17 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 4:53 PM Alan Perry via cctalk > wrote: >> >> My Sun 3/260 came with a pair of 8-inch SMD disks in a separate cabinet. >> >> 1. Anyone have a pointer to docs that describe cabling and configuring >> SMD disks? My Google-fu has failed here. >> >> 2. The system came with no cables (external cables between cabinets). >> Are these standard cables or will they be Sun-specific? >> >> 3. The system "ran when parked" about a dozen years ago, but it was left >> in an open barn after that. How likely is it that the disks will work >> and be readable? One is a Fujitsu M2333; don't recall what they other >> one is. >> >> alan > > It has been over 5 years now since I had a Sun 4/280. I gave that away > to someone else on the list. > > That system had an Xylogics 7053 SMD controller with a couple of > Hitachi 900MB DK815-10 SMD-E ~8-inch drives. I forget the details now. > From a quick look online the Xylogics 7053 SMD controller has a CMD > port, and a DATA 0,1 and a DATA 2,3 port. If I remember right the CMD > port was cabled to the CMD in port of the first drive, then the CMD > out port of the first drive was cabled to the CMD in port of the > second drive, then the CMD out port of the second drive was > terminated. The DATA 0,1 port must have had a Y-cable that was split > to the DATA ports of each drive. On the controller side, there are two command connectors, one wider than the other, as well as two data connectors. On the disk cabinet side, there is a connector marked 'data 0', connected to one HDD, another marked 'data 1', connected to the other HDD, and two pairs of command connectors, one marked 'in' and the other 'out'. I haven't yet followed the command cabling to see what the connectors connect to. > > There were other Xylogics SMD controllers as well. Which controller do > you have in your system? Xylogics 451. > From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Aug 30 00:56:49 2019 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2019 22:56:49 -0700 Subject: SMD disks In-Reply-To: <440ef547-7be2-3485-194b-ef013c4f9612@snowmoose.com> References: <440ef547-7be2-3485-194b-ef013c4f9612@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 29, 2019, 9:27 PM Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > > > On 8/29/19 9:17 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > On Thu, Aug 29, 2019 at 4:53 PM Alan Perry via cctalk > > wrote: > >> > >> My Sun 3/260 came with a pair of 8-inch SMD disks in a separate cabinet. > >> > >> 1. Anyone have a pointer to docs that describe cabling and configuring > >> SMD disks? My Google-fu has failed here. > >> > >> 2. The system came with no cables (external cables between cabinets). > >> Are these standard cables or will they be Sun-specific? > >> > >> 3. The system "ran when parked" about a dozen years ago, but it was left > >> in an open barn after that. How likely is it that the disks will work > >> and be readable? One is a Fujitsu M2333; don't recall what they other > >> one is. > >> > >> alan > > > > It has been over 5 years now since I had a Sun 4/280. I gave that away > > to someone else on the list. > > > > That system had an Xylogics 7053 SMD controller with a couple of > > Hitachi 900MB DK815-10 SMD-E ~8-inch drives. I forget the details now. > > From a quick look online the Xylogics 7053 SMD controller has a CMD > > port, and a DATA 0,1 and a DATA 2,3 port. If I remember right the CMD > > port was cabled to the CMD in port of the first drive, then the CMD > > out port of the first drive was cabled to the CMD in port of the > > second drive, then the CMD out port of the second drive was > > terminated. The DATA 0,1 port must have had a Y-cable that was split > > to the DATA ports of each drive. > > On the controller side, there are two command connectors, one wider than > the other, as well as two data connectors. On the disk cabinet side, > there is a connector marked 'data 0', connected to one HDD, another > marked 'data 1', connected to the other HDD, and two pairs of command > connectors, one marked 'in' and the other 'out'. I haven't yet followed > the command cabling to see what the connectors connect to. > > > > > There were other Xylogics SMD controllers as well. Which controller do > > you have in your system? > > Xylogics 451. > The diagram on this page it shows that the 60-pin SMD Command connector of the Xylogics 461 is split into two connectors on the bulkhead panel: http://shrubbery.net/~heas/sun-feh-2_1/Systems/Sun3/DISK_53_Xylogics-451.html My guess is that it was easier in some way to have two smaller connectors and cables than a single larger connector and cable. I can't remember now if the Xylogics 7053 did the same thing with split Command cables. I assume that in the disk cabinet the two Command In connectors join back into a standard 60-pin SMD Control connection to the first disk, which is then chained to the second disk, which is the chained and split again to the two Command Out connectors. > From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Fri Aug 30 02:50:18 2019 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 07:50:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: SMD disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1133029944.88597.1567151418932@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Alan, >3. The system "ran when parked" about a dozen years ago, but it was left >in an open barn after that. How likely is it that the disks will work >and be readable? One is a Fujitsu M2333; don't recall what they other >one is. > Alan, I have a few of these drives of which two were stored in a humid environment before I got them. There was rust everywhere... After a bit of cleaning, they both worked fine, formatting and checking was successful. In my experience, the 8" Fujitsu SMD drives are rock-solid, all of my drives work, never had issues, even after years of storage. It's a very different story with the 10.5" Fujitsu Super Eagles... Talking about such drives, did anybody ever come across some manuals for the Super Eages M2361A? There are M2351 Eagle manuals online, but not for the Super Eagles which are different. Never came across a paper version, either. Best regards, Pierre From aap at papnet.eu Fri Aug 30 03:37:54 2019 From: aap at papnet.eu (Angelo Papenhoff) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 10:37:54 +0200 Subject: VCF Berlin Message-ID: <20190830083754.GA28288@indra.papnet.eu> So many VCFs happening in the US but we have them in Europe too! VCF Berlin is not even two months away (Oct 12th and 13th) and you can still register as an exhibitor till Sept 8th. Our special topic this year will be Computer from Germany. The show will be located at the Technikmuseum (do I need to translate that?) which is itself worth a visit. So please attend, as exhibitor or visitor, admission is free! For more information and a list of exhibitions see https://vcfb.de/2019/index.html.en https://vcfb.de/2019/ausstellungen.html.en Hope to see you there, Angelo/aap From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Fri Aug 30 05:20:24 2019 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 12:20:24 +0200 Subject: VCF Berlin In-Reply-To: <20190830083754.GA28288@indra.papnet.eu> References: <20190830083754.GA28288@indra.papnet.eu> Message-ID: <770a977d8e13cec3436d75d821ade4ff1cc5c007.camel@agj.net> fre 2019-08-30 klockan 10:37 +0200 skrev Angelo Papenhoff via cctalk: > So many VCFs happening in the US but we have them in Europe too! > VCF Berlin is not even two months away (Oct 12th and 13th) and > you can still register as an exhibitor till Sept 8th. > Our special topic this year will be Computer from Germany. > The show will be located at the Technikmuseum (do I need to translate > that?) which is itself worth a visit. > > So please attend, as exhibitor or visitor, admission is free! > > For more information and a list of exhibitions see > https://vcfb.de/2019/index.html.en > https://vcfb.de/2019/ausstellungen.html.en > > Hope to see you there, > Angelo/aap The old Anhalter bahnhof ? From aap at papnet.eu Fri Aug 30 05:36:45 2019 From: aap at papnet.eu (Angelo Papenhoff) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 12:36:45 +0200 Subject: VCF Berlin In-Reply-To: <770a977d8e13cec3436d75d821ade4ff1cc5c007.camel@agj.net> References: <20190830083754.GA28288@indra.papnet.eu> <770a977d8e13cec3436d75d821ade4ff1cc5c007.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: <20190830103645.GA66560@indra.papnet.eu> On 30/08/19, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > > The old Anhalter bahnhof ? That's the one. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Aug 30 08:04:23 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 14:04:23 +0100 Subject: VCF Berlin In-Reply-To: <20190830083754.GA28288@indra.papnet.eu> References: <20190830083754.GA28288@indra.papnet.eu> Message-ID: <048a01d55f33$7234ee60$569ecb20$@gmail.com> What are the opening times? I think I might manage a Sunday but don't arrive at TXL until 10:55 Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Angelo Papenhoff > via cctalk > Sent: 30 August 2019 09:38 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: VCF Berlin > > So many VCFs happening in the US but we have them in Europe too! > VCF Berlin is not even two months away (Oct 12th and 13th) and you can still > register as an exhibitor till Sept 8th. > Our special topic this year will be Computer from Germany. > The show will be located at the Technikmuseum (do I need to translate > that?) which is itself worth a visit. > > So please attend, as exhibitor or visitor, admission is free! > > For more information and a list of exhibitions see > https://vcfb.de/2019/index.html.en > https://vcfb.de/2019/ausstellungen.html.en > > Hope to see you there, > Angelo/aap From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Fri Aug 30 08:30:20 2019 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 15:30:20 +0200 Subject: Current MANX location In-Reply-To: <8252e21c-72b0-7011-05e1-ff505f5920cc@ntlworld.com> References: <20190821144624.34D8418C0CA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <8252e21c-72b0-7011-05e1-ff505f5920cc@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: ons 2019-08-21 klockan 18:30 +0100 skrev Antonio Carlini via cctalk: > On 21/08/2019 15:46, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > I have mixed reactions to it. I use it some, often to see if > > something is > > online at all. (If I buy a manual, I usually check, to see if I > > need to > > scan it, and get it to Al. Have a backlog at the moment, sigh.) > > > > The problem is that there are 'false negatives'; i.e. entries where > > they say 'none known online', but which are available. > > It is (AFAIK) a one-person effort (although it's now on its second > person after the originator dropped out). > > > There's always been a link to create a "bug report" for missing > manuals > (or incorrect ones I guess). However that points at codeplex, which > MS > have made read-only, so I don't know what the correct mechanism might > be > to get things fixed. I guess the owner needs to move the code > somewhere > else ... > > would something like mender.io be something like that ? From new_castle_j at yahoo.com Fri Aug 30 12:56:03 2019 From: new_castle_j at yahoo.com (Jonathan Haddox) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 17:56:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: SMD disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <128856276.414612.1567187763488@mail.yahoo.com> With SMD disks even harder to come by than MFM disks, has there been any plug-in replacements developed for them? I've seen MFM disk emulators, haven't seen SMD ones though, anyone know if they exist? From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Aug 30 13:05:51 2019 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 11:05:51 -0700 Subject: SMD disks In-Reply-To: <128856276.414612.1567187763488@mail.yahoo.com> References: <128856276.414612.1567187763488@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I?m actively working on SMD and ESDI emulators. However, given my work schedule this is a long term project. :-( TTFN - Guy > On Aug 30, 2019, at 10:56 AM, Jonathan Haddox via cctalk wrote: > > With SMD disks even harder to come by than MFM disks, has there been any plug-in replacements developed for them? I've seen MFM disk emulators, haven't seen SMD ones though, anyone know if they exist? From gordon+cctalk at drogon.net Fri Aug 30 15:07:56 2019 From: gordon+cctalk at drogon.net (Gordon Henderson) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 21:07:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: TRS-80 Fireworks In-Reply-To: <01RAROEBJ1U08WYJ4Q@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01RAROEBJ1U08WYJ4Q@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Aug 2019, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > I've had several instances of it with BBC Micros, also containing Astec brand > power supplies. Typically, when switched on after a long period of idleness, > the machine works fine for minutes to hours, then there is a quiet pop followed > by a whoosing noise and smoke starts pouring of the mains filter capacitor > while the machine continues to work away quite happily. Sometimes not even a pop: https://unicorn.drogon.net/bbcSmoke.jpg Biggest bang I've had was from an Apple //e PSU.. But yes - SOP: Change the X2's... Gordon From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Aug 30 16:17:04 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 17:17:04 -0400 Subject: SMD disks In-Reply-To: References: <128856276.414612.1567187763488@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 2:06 PM Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: > I?m actively working on SMD and ESDI emulators. However, given my work schedule this is a long term project. :-( That's awesome. I have a number of SMD and ESDI controllers for workstations and minicomputers. In particular, ESDI and SMD for Qbus, in multiple SI9900 boxes (MASSBUS-SMD), and in an oddball 3rd-party box with a dual SDI-ESDI interface (with a pair of working 600MB drives, at least the last time I powered it on). It would be fantastic to hang emulated drives off the boards I have. Looking forward to the eventual launch! -ethan From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Fri Aug 30 18:30:06 2019 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2019 01:30:06 +0200 Subject: SMD disks In-Reply-To: References: <128856276.414612.1567187763488@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: fre 2019-08-30 klockan 11:05 -0700 skrev Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk: > I?m actively working on SMD and ESDI emulators. However, given my > work schedule this is a long term project. :-( > > TTFN - Guy > > > On Aug 30, 2019, at 10:56 AM, Jonathan Haddox via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > With SMD disks even harder to come by than MFM disks, has there > > been any plug-in replacements developed for them? I've seen MFM > > disk emulators, haven't seen SMD ones though, anyone know if they > > exist? It exists SMD disk replacement (ARAID for example, but they are somewhat expensive but...) From shumaker at att.net Fri Aug 30 19:08:24 2019 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 17:08:24 -0700 Subject: Classic HP DesignJet Plotter Message-ID: <6e801095-64c2-c2c1-0a61-6d13cc38d065@att.net> OK...?? it isn't Versatec or Calcomp but it is early HP.?? It's a DesignJet 755CM.?? HP part number is C3198B.?? It was fully functional and in weekly used when finally taken out of service but it's been sitting for 20+ years in inside storage and it needs a new home. I haven't fired it up as it *will* need new belts (just from sitting) but otherwise it should be in fairly good mechanical/electronic condition. Lots of tech data including the complete service manual can be found online. It needs a new home. Any interest? Physically/cosmetically it's in good shape although the paper bin is not original.?? Its mounted on the classic DesignJet stand for mobility and I have a box of assorted unused/sealed ink cartridges (beyond that, their status is totally unk though).?? I can probably find a roll of paper for it as well. Located in the SF Bay area, it *could* be shipped but I suspect you don't want go there - even if I boxed it myself.?? If there's a serious interest, I'd be open to delivering it or meeting part way.?? Obviously, I can part it out or just e-waste it but those seem like such a shame to do. I could email some photos off-list if there's anyone interested. Steve From shumaker at att.net Fri Aug 30 19:21:07 2019 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 17:21:07 -0700 Subject: test Message-ID: Apologies for the question marks in the previous post? - Thunderbird reverts occasionally.????? test?? It should be fixed now. Steve From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Fri Aug 30 19:21:52 2019 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 21:21:52 -0300 Subject: test In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Test faild. Please call support. ---8<---Corte aqui---8<--- http://www.tabajara-labs.blogspot.com http://www.tabalabs.com.br ---8<---Corte aqui---8<--- Em sex, 30 de ago de 2019 ?s 21:21, steve shumaker via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> escreveu: > Apologies for the question marks in the previous post - Thunderbird > reverts occasionally. test It should be fixed now. > > > Steve > > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Aug 30 20:04:04 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 18:04:04 -0700 Subject: SMD disks In-Reply-To: <1133029944.88597.1567151418932@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1133029944.88597.1567151418932@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <728b1c18-7dce-8313-9635-13cdd144a2eb@bitsavers.org> On 8/30/19 12:50 AM, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: > Talking about such drives, did anybody ever come across some manuals for the Super Eagles M2361A? Just uploaded it to bitsavers From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Aug 31 00:27:26 2019 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 22:27:26 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 Fireworks In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190828190721.00e4f5b0@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20190828190721.00e4f5b0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <5AAB6285-BDCF-45D9-94A8-D2CB445354B2@nf6x.net> > On Aug 28, 2019, at 2:07 AM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > An extremely common problem with all old electronics from around that era. > The mains filter caps are commonly 'RIFA' brand metalized polyester film, > encapsulated in a clear-honey-coloured resin. > The problem is that the resin embrittles and shrinks with age, resulting in > many small cracks. (And sometimes large pieces falling off.) > The cracks let in moisture, which absorbs into the insulating film. I suspect those notorious Rifa brand capacitors would not be so problematic if they had polyester film dielectric. But if I'm not mistaken, they don't; they have *paper* dielectric! Aside from that one correction, I agree with everything else you wrote about the likely failure mechanism of these evil little rectangles of compressed smoke and fire. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From commodorejohn at gmail.com Fri Aug 30 21:24:24 2019 From: commodorejohn at gmail.com (John Ames) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 19:24:24 -0700 Subject: So what the heck did I just pick up? Message-ID: Ran into this at the electronics-surplus store just down the way from my workplace and grabbed it on the cheap. I don't actually know what it *is,* but the labels on the switches make it look a *hell* of a lot like a 16-bit general-purpose computer of some kind. Despite the claims of being "microprocessor-controlled," I looked at every board inside the thing and couldn't spot anything that looked like a 16-bit or even 8-bit CPU. Genuinely curious what this is, but I can't find much on it online - the name pops up in a few archived documents, but Bitsavers doesn't have anything for the company. Though the design is attributed to Stanley Kubota and Edward Corby - looks like Mr. Kubota still has an online presence at https://www.exsellsales.com/about-us/ so I'll have to drop them a line... Anybody heard of or encountered one of these before? http://www.commodorejohn.com/whatsit-front.jpg http://www.commodorejohn.com/whatsit-back.jpg From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 30 21:43:25 2019 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 19:43:25 -0700 Subject: So what the heck did I just pick up? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <91a8367c-1978-d981-3626-44a5d7ef8a13@sbcglobal.net> On 8/30/2019 7:24 PM, John Ames via cctech wrote: > Ran into this at the electronics-surplus store just down the way from > my workplace and grabbed it on the cheap. I don't actually know what > it *is,* but the labels on the switches make it look a *hell* of a lot > like a 16-bit general-purpose computer of some kind. Despite the > claims of being "microprocessor-controlled," I looked at every board > inside the thing and couldn't spot anything that looked like a 16-bit > or even 8-bit CPU. Genuinely curious what this is, but I can't find > much on it online - the name pops up in a few archived documents, but > Bitsavers doesn't have anything for the company. Though the design is > attributed to Stanley Kubota and Edward Corby - looks like Mr. Kubota > still has an online presence at https://www.exsellsales.com/about-us/ > so I'll have to drop them a line... > > Anybody heard of or encountered one of these before? > > http://www.commodorejohn.com/whatsit-front.jpg > http://www.commodorejohn.com/whatsit-back.jpg > It's a piece of test equipment that generates bit patterns. The connectors on the back go to pods that output different logic levels like TTL or ECL. I used one to generate test patterns for testing parallel loaded video DAC's. It could be programmed to loop through sections of data loaded into it's internal memory and respond to input bits to change what it's outputting. It's main use was for testing IEEE 488 interfaces, but could be used as a general purpose data and timing generator. Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 30 21:57:43 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 19:57:43 -0700 Subject: So what the heck did I just pick up? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5419b55b-b3ed-91e4-65ba-367f55e55bc0@sydex.com> On 8/30/19 7:24 PM, John Ames via cctech wrote: > Ran into this at the electronics-surplus store just down the way from > my workplace and grabbed it on the cheap. I don't actually know what > it *is,* but the labels on the switches make it look a *hell* of a lot > like a 16-bit general-purpose computer of some kind. Despite the > claims of being "microprocessor-controlled," I looked at every board > inside the thing and couldn't spot anything that looked like a 16-bit > or even 8-bit CPU. Genuinely curious what this is, but I can't find > much on it online - the name pops up in a few archived documents, but > Bitsavers doesn't have anything for the company. Though the design is > attributed to Stanley Kubota and Edward Corby - looks like Mr. Kubota > still has an online presence at https://www.exsellsales.com/about-us/ > so I'll have to drop them a line... > > Anybody heard of or encountered one of these before? > > http://www.commodorejohn.com/whatsit-front.jpg > http://www.commodorejohn.com/whatsit-back.jpg Not surprisingly, the answer's on Bitsavers: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/microcomputerAssociates/Microcomputer_Digest_v02n08_Feb76.pdf PDF page 7. --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Aug 30 23:35:27 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2019 04:35:27 +0000 Subject: So what the heck did I just pick up? In-Reply-To: <5419b55b-b3ed-91e4-65ba-367f55e55bc0@sydex.com> References: , <5419b55b-b3ed-91e4-65ba-367f55e55bc0@sydex.com> Message-ID: One wonders what the micro instructions were? It looks like a lot of circuit tracing ahead. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctech on behalf of Chuck Guzis via cctech Sent: Friday, August 30, 2019 7:57 PM To: John Ames via cctech Subject: Re: So what the heck did I just pick up? On 8/30/19 7:24 PM, John Ames via cctech wrote: > Ran into this at the electronics-surplus store just down the way from > my workplace and grabbed it on the cheap. I don't actually know what > it *is,* but the labels on the switches make it look a *hell* of a lot > like a 16-bit general-purpose computer of some kind. Despite the > claims of being "microprocessor-controlled," I looked at every board > inside the thing and couldn't spot anything that looked like a 16-bit > or even 8-bit CPU. Genuinely curious what this is, but I can't find > much on it online - the name pops up in a few archived documents, but > Bitsavers doesn't have anything for the company. Though the design is > attributed to Stanley Kubota and Edward Corby - looks like Mr. Kubota > still has an online presence at https://www.exsellsales.com/about-us/ > so I'll have to drop them a line... > > Anybody heard of or encountered one of these before? > > http://www.commodorejohn.com/whatsit-front.jpg > http://www.commodorejohn.com/whatsit-back.jpg Not surprisingly, the answer's on Bitsavers: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/microcomputerAssociates/Microcomputer_Digest_v02n08_Feb76.pdf PDF page 7. --Chuck From ataylor at subgeniuskitty.com Sat Aug 31 02:16:08 2019 From: ataylor at subgeniuskitty.com (Aaron Taylor) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2019 00:16:08 -0700 Subject: So what the heck did I just pick up? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20190831071607.GA39639@lagavulin> I have something from the same company that sounds like it might be the same type of device. It is an RS-670 40 MHz Digital Word Generator. Mine is obviously a decade or two newer. It includes a small CRT plus keypad/keyboard and is a general purpose computer. It includes 32 output lines (plus some misc) and the user can enter a program, either via floppy or by manual entry on the front panel. That program is played back over the output lines like a digital function generator. If you find any caches of manuals for Interface Technologies equipment, let me know. I don't have a manual for mine. Aaron On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 07:24:24PM -0700, John Ames via cctech wrote: > Ran into this at the electronics-surplus store just down the way from > my workplace and grabbed it on the cheap. I don't actually know what > it *is,* but the labels on the switches make it look a *hell* of a lot > like a 16-bit general-purpose computer of some kind. Despite the > claims of being "microprocessor-controlled," I looked at every board > inside the thing and couldn't spot anything that looked like a 16-bit > or even 8-bit CPU. Genuinely curious what this is, but I can't find > much on it online - the name pops up in a few archived documents, but > Bitsavers doesn't have anything for the company. Though the design is > attributed to Stanley Kubota and Edward Corby - looks like Mr. Kubota > still has an online presence at https://www.exsellsales.com/about-us/ > so I'll have to drop them a line... > > Anybody heard of or encountered one of these before? > > http://www.commodorejohn.com/whatsit-front.jpg > http://www.commodorejohn.com/whatsit-back.jpg From john at forecast.name Sat Aug 31 11:10:40 2019 From: john at forecast.name (John Forecast) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2019 12:10:40 -0400 Subject: DecNet / Linux In-Reply-To: <4265BC9D-AC40-4B1F-AC65-753B43A48F3C@forecast.name> References: <61500.92.70.5.67.1562159116.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> <9eb992f5-e016-abf8-d133-ad27b5c50a63@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <44472.10.10.10.2.1562178711.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> <4265BC9D-AC40-4B1F-AC65-753B43A48F3C@forecast.name> Message-ID: <70A863D2-D217-4AEA-BF07-95D278E85F53@forecast.name> I finally got around to getting DECnet running on the latest release of Raspbian for the Raspberry Pi (the 2019-7-10 Buster release). I?ve also done some (very) limited testing on Debian Buster (both 32- and 64-bit x86 kernels). For anyone who is interested the code is available at: > John. From w9gb at icloud.com Sat Aug 31 12:16:22 2019 From: w9gb at icloud.com (Gregory Beat) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2019 12:16:22 -0500 Subject: So what the heck did I just pick up? Message-ID: <8F6A86D9-65E1-4799-A4CA-7EAB79D1426F@icloud.com> Beautiful front panel (1970s design). It would make a nice front panel for a DIY Computer. ? It is an RS-423 control/switch panel. RS-423 is an EIA/TIA serial communications standard, BUT there is no common pinout (standard) for RS-423. == RS-232 was defined in 1962 by the Electronics Industry Association (now the Electronics Industry Alliance). Control of the standards definition was passed over to the Telecommunications Industry Association in 1988. Since then, standards documents relating to RS-232 are referenced by the code ?TIA.? The standard is currently known as TIA-232-F. RS-432 was a faster version of RS-232 ? BUT it was not widely adopted. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/RS-423 The BBC Micro computer used a 5-pin DIN connector. DEC used it with their Modified Modular Jack (MMJ) connector. This was sometimes called "DEC-423". RS-432 was implemented in Apple Mac computers and the Enterprise 64 and 128 models. All other hardware manufacturers stuck with RS-232. g. beat elmhurst, is Midwest VCF : September 14-15, 2019 http://vcfmw.org/ Sent from iPad Air From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Aug 31 14:43:01 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2019 12:43:01 -0700 Subject: So what the heck did I just pick up? In-Reply-To: <8F6A86D9-65E1-4799-A4CA-7EAB79D1426F@icloud.com> References: <8F6A86D9-65E1-4799-A4CA-7EAB79D1426F@icloud.com> Message-ID: <2d70e366-addb-e267-e05e-29c1c9afc6a2@bitsavers.org> On 8/31/19 10:16 AM, 'someone' via cctalk wrote: > It would make a nice front panel for a DIY Computer. Yes, chop of its head. That's always the first thing to do with a piece of 'unknown' test equipment From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sat Aug 31 15:25:33 2019 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2019 13:25:33 -0700 Subject: So what the heck did I just pick up? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2019-Aug-30, at 7:24 PM, John Ames via cctalk wrote: > Ran into this at the electronics-surplus store just down the way from > my workplace and grabbed it on the cheap. I don't actually know what > it *is,* but the labels on the switches make it look a *hell* of a lot > like a 16-bit general-purpose computer of some kind. Despite the > claims of being "microprocessor-controlled," I looked at every board > inside the thing and couldn't spot anything that looked like a 16-bit > or even 8-bit CPU. Genuinely curious what this is, but I can't find > much on it online - the name pops up in a few archived documents, but > Bitsavers doesn't have anything for the company. Though the design is > attributed to Stanley Kubota and Edward Corby - looks like Mr. Kubota > still has an online presence at https://www.exsellsales.com/about-us/ > so I'll have to drop them a line... > > Anybody heard of or encountered one of these before? > > http://www.commodorejohn.com/whatsit-front.jpg > http://www.commodorejohn.com/whatsit-back.jpg "couldn't spot anything that ... looked like a CPU" By what criteria? Were you just looking for 'large' chips? Might you have overlooked an 8008 or 4004? - they were in 'small' 18 & 16 pin DIPs. Given the mid-70's appearance (confirmed by Chuck's 1976 ref) those would have been possibilities for the task. If there's no single-chip microproc in there, there might be a minimal CPU built out of multiple chips. "Microprocessor" in that era was sometimes used in a wider sense than just single-chip-processor. ROMs or EPROMs for firmware could be another hint as to architecture. From commodorejohn at gmail.com Sat Aug 31 14:03:15 2019 From: commodorejohn at gmail.com (John Ames) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2019 12:03:15 -0700 Subject: So what the heck did I just pick up? In-Reply-To: <8F6A86D9-65E1-4799-A4CA-7EAB79D1426F@icloud.com> References: <8F6A86D9-65E1-4799-A4CA-7EAB79D1426F@icloud.com> Message-ID: On 8/31/19, Gregory Beat wrote: > Beautiful front panel (1970s design). > It would make a nice front panel for a DIY Computer. Yeah, that's definitely a thought that's crossed my mind (I've been meaning to get around to a TMS-99105 project for ages...) Though I'd like to find out more about this before I go cannibalizing what appears to be a working piece of equipment (fires up with no smoke, front-panel controls respond as one might expect - but without documentation, it's rather hard to hack up a test program!) From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Aug 31 17:51:35 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2019 22:51:35 +0000 Subject: So what the heck did I just pick up? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: How about some pictures of what was inside. A picture that is atleast good enough to see what is there. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Brent Hilpert via cctalk Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2019 1:25 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: So what the heck did I just pick up? On 2019-Aug-30, at 7:24 PM, John Ames via cctalk wrote: > Ran into this at the electronics-surplus store just down the way from > my workplace and grabbed it on the cheap. I don't actually know what > it *is,* but the labels on the switches make it look a *hell* of a lot > like a 16-bit general-purpose computer of some kind. Despite the > claims of being "microprocessor-controlled," I looked at every board > inside the thing and couldn't spot anything that looked like a 16-bit > or even 8-bit CPU. Genuinely curious what this is, but I can't find > much on it online - the name pops up in a few archived documents, but > Bitsavers doesn't have anything for the company. Though the design is > attributed to Stanley Kubota and Edward Corby - looks like Mr. Kubota > still has an online presence at https://www.exsellsales.com/about-us/ > so I'll have to drop them a line... > > Anybody heard of or encountered one of these before? > > http://www.commodorejohn.com/whatsit-front.jpg > http://www.commodorejohn.com/whatsit-back.jpg "couldn't spot anything that ... looked like a CPU" By what criteria? Were you just looking for 'large' chips? Might you have overlooked an 8008 or 4004? - they were in 'small' 18 & 16 pin DIPs. Given the mid-70's appearance (confirmed by Chuck's 1976 ref) those would have been possibilities for the task. If there's no single-chip microproc in there, there might be a minimal CPU built out of multiple chips. "Microprocessor" in that era was sometimes used in a wider sense than just single-chip-processor. ROMs or EPROMs for firmware could be another hint as to architecture.