From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 16:02:16 2019 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 14:02:16 -0700 Subject: ISO: Docs for Dilog DQ100 Message-ID: Hey all -- Trying to track down technical info for a Dilog DQ100 controller. This is a QBus controller compatible with the RK11 (or RKV11, in this case) that works with various RK05-compatible drives. (See the brochure here: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dilog/brochures/DQ100_Brochure_Aug1980.pdf) At minimum, I'd like to know the connector pinout so that I might wire up a Diablo 31 to it. Thanks as always, Josh From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 1 16:20:48 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 14:20:48 -0700 Subject: ISO: Docs for Dilog DQ100 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a board and cable. It should match up with the 40 pin cable pinout on the Alto. Will double-check it tonight. On 4/1/19 2:02 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > Hey all -- > > Trying to track down technical info for a Dilog DQ100 controller. This is > a QBus controller compatible with the RK11 (or RKV11, in this case) that > works with various RK05-compatible drives. (See the brochure here: > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dilog/brochures/DQ100_Brochure_Aug1980.pdf) > > At minimum, I'd like to know the connector pinout so that I might wire up a > Diablo 31 to it. > > Thanks as always, > Josh > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 1 16:21:25 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 14:21:25 -0700 Subject: ISO: Docs for Dilog DQ100 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9f7658ce-0fc5-4366-d662-8881d758e537@bitsavers.org> rats, after I sent that I remembered it is a Xylogics, not a Dilog On 4/1/19 2:20 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I have a board and cable. It should match up with the 40 pin cable pinout > on the Alto. Will double-check it tonight. > > On 4/1/19 2:02 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: >> Hey all -- >> >> Trying to track down technical info for a Dilog DQ100 controller. This is >> a QBus controller compatible with the RK11 (or RKV11, in this case) that >> works with various RK05-compatible drives. (See the brochure here: >> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dilog/brochures/DQ100_Brochure_Aug1980.pdf) >> >> At minimum, I'd like to know the connector pinout so that I might wire up a >> Diablo 31 to it. >> >> Thanks as always, >> Josh >> > From lproven at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 16:23:12 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 23:23:12 +0200 Subject: The story of... PDP-1 Message-ID: DEC archival docs tell the story of the genesis of the PDP-1: https://gordonbell.azurewebsites.net/digital/timeline/pdp-1story.htm -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From trash80 at internode.on.net Mon Apr 1 18:11:26 2019 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 10:11:26 +1100 Subject: The Retro Search is back up Message-ID: <015d01d4e8e0$3c8b56b0$b5a20410$@internode.on.net> This will mostly interest TRS-80 enthusiasts on this list. Being a TRS-80 enthusiast myself it has been a long-time dream of mine to create a specialised TRS-80 search engine but creating a web facing search engine to crawl numerous sites, index and categorise was quite difficult on a low budget. For some time I used Google's Custom Search, the ad free paid version, but Google withdrew that product so it took be back to my starting point. I could have continued with the ad version but somehow I didn't want a page full of ads for users of this site. In any case doing it in my own right gave me a lot more granularity and control. So after much experimenting and trialling I finally produced the site in its own right and have just relaunched it. It is, in fact will always be, work in progress and I'm always on the lookout for more TRS-80 resources to add to the site and for any advice on omissions, corrections, additions etc. If you know any sites that I haven't included please use the contact form on the site to let me know. Check it out at theretrosearch.com Thank you!! Kevin Parker From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Apr 1 19:34:02 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 20:34:02 -0400 Subject: The story of... PDP-1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <23B46316-F0CD-4876-964D-EBAF41C0E02D@comcast.net> Nice. The bit about the PDP-1 at the skydiving world championship (in Orange, MA) is still a well known item in the history of skydiving. paul > On Apr 1, 2019, at 5:23 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > DEC archival docs tell the story of the genesis of the PDP-1: > > https://gordonbell.azurewebsites.net/digital/timeline/pdp-1story.htm > > -- > Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Apr 1 19:55:28 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 00:55:28 +0000 Subject: 2.11 BSD on an 11/93 with an CMD SCSI Module In-Reply-To: References: <52057c1e-a4d1-ba80-52c8-35099f941988@bitsavers.org> <20190326235436.7BBE0179BF0@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On 3/31/19 4:29 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 12:50 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > > wrote: > > > It's been a fun journey but I finally have 2.11 BSD (Patchlevel 431) > running on my real 11/93. > > On to the next challenges. > > Does anyone know which serial device I should configure for in order > to get the other serial lines working?? Everything I read says they > are DL lines and calls the builtin controller a DLV22.? There is no > such device in the 2.11 config.? Any suggestions? > > > I believe the console plus the seven additional serial lines show up as > individual DL11 units; these are configured via the NKL parameter in > your kernel configuration.? Set it to 8 and see what happens... > > > Also having trouble with the ethernet.? It won't come up.? Are there > network modules that do not work under 2.11? > > > Can you elaborate as to what you're doing here (what hardware, how > you're bringing it up, etc) and what errors you're getting or what > behavior you're seeing? > OK, here we go with exactly what I get with the new kernel with NKL = 8 and entries in /etc/dtab for 7 serial lines. ---------------- 93Boot from ra(0,0,0) at 0172150 : : ra(0,0,0)unix Boot: bootdev=02400 bootcsr=0172150 2.11 BSD UNIX #17: Thu Jan 4 03:34:38 PST 1990 root at wizard:/usr/src/sys/WIZARD ra0: Ver 6 mod 13 ra0: RA90 size=4110479 /netnix bad magic 407 netinit failed phys mem = 2097152 avail mem = 1879360 user mem = 307200 January 4 08:48:26 init: configure system autoconfig: warning: more than three handlers for device tty1 on line 36. hk ? csr 177440 vector 210 skipped: No autoconfig routines. ht ? csr 172440 vector 224 skipped: No autoconfig routines. ra 0 csr 172150 vector 154 vectorset attached rl ? csr 174400 vector 160 skipped: No autoconfig routines. tm ? csr 172520 vector 224 skipped: No autoconfig routines. tms 0 csr 174500 vector 260 vectorset attached ts ? csr 172520 vector 224 skipped: No autoconfig routines. xp ? csr 176700 vector 254 skipped: No autoconfig routines. tty1 1 csr 176500 vector 300 skipped: No autoconfig routines. tty2 2 csr 176510 vector 310 skipped: No autoconfig routines. tty3 3 csr 176520 vector 320 skipped: No autoconfig routines. tty4 4 csr 176530 vector 330 skipped: No autoconfig routines. tty5 5 csr 176540 vector 340 skipped: No autoconfig routines. tty6 6 csr 176550 vector 350 skipped: No autoconfig routines. tty7 7 csr 176560 vector 360 skipped: No autoconfig routines. erase, kill ^U, intr ^C # checking quotas: done. Assuming NETWORKING system ... ifconfig: socket: Network is down ifconfig: socket: Network is down route: socket: Network is down route: socket: Network is down starting system logger Jan 4 08:56:13 wizard syslogd: cannot create /dev/log: Network is down checking for core dump... preserving editor files clearing /tmp standard daemons: update cron accounting. starting network daemons: inetd rwhod printer. starting local daemons: sendmail. Thu Jan 4 08:56:26 PST 1990 2.11 BSD UNIX (wizard) (console) login: ---------------------------------- So, the serial line still don't work and the for some reason the network won't come up. Looks like more research needed for this. And now for today's humor. During one of the recompiles of the kernel (I had to do it a couple times to get the BASE and Overlays right. Boy did that bring back memories. Glad to see I still have the knack for doing them.) I got the following message: base segment is 49152, min is 49152, too small by 0 bytes. And, of course, it said the kernel was not BOOTABLE. Maybe that should say "min is 49153". :-) bill From steven at malikoff.com Mon Apr 1 19:59:23 2019 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 10:59:23 +1000 Subject: Model 40 Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information? In-Reply-To: <4BAE5F72-D37A-4C49-8A71-C83B574BE0C2@gmail.com> References: <5C9E3763.5060305@pico-systems.com> <4BAE5F72-D37A-4C49-8A71-C83B574BE0C2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <21db577a0d8a07405251b1e38a7953cc.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Marc said > Which brings us to the real problem: we don?t have 360 Model 50 ALDs. Anyone has them? > > Marc And same for the Model 40 ALDs. All I have is one or two pages of the 2040 ALD's and some peripheral ALD's only saved because I'd drawn artwork on the back, or they got used for book covering. I've not scanned them yet but should get to that sometime. Sadly there's not much there. A while ago I did scan a tiny fragment of the Model 40 development doc from Hursley https://archive.org/details/@galasphere347 Steve. From pete at pski.net Mon Apr 1 20:06:43 2019 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 21:06:43 -0400 Subject: The Retro Search is back up In-Reply-To: <015d01d4e8e0$3c8b56b0$b5a20410$@internode.on.net> References: <015d01d4e8e0$3c8b56b0$b5a20410$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <97FE09B8-E822-48A0-8AF8-9D941FC027CE@pski.net> > On Apr 1, 2019, at 7:11 PM, Kevin Parker via cctalk wrote: > > This will mostly interest TRS-80 enthusiasts on this list. > > Check it out at theretrosearch.com > Thank you for this, Kevin! From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 20:56:21 2019 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 18:56:21 -0700 Subject: 2.11 BSD on an 11/93 with an CMD SCSI Module In-Reply-To: References: <52057c1e-a4d1-ba80-52c8-35099f941988@bitsavers.org> <20190326235436.7BBE0179BF0@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 5:55 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 3/31/19 4:29 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > > > > > Can you elaborate as to what you're doing here (what hardware, how > > you're bringing it up, etc) and what errors you're getting or what > > behavior you're seeing? > > > > OK, here we go with exactly what I get with the new kernel with > NKL = 8 and entries in /etc/dtab for 7 serial lines. > > ---------------- > > 93Boot from ra(0,0,0) at 0172150 > : > : ra(0,0,0)unix > Boot: bootdev=02400 bootcsr=0172150 > > 2.11 BSD UNIX #17: Thu Jan 4 03:34:38 PST 1990 > root at wizard:/usr/src/sys/WIZARD > > ra0: Ver 6 mod 13 > ra0: RA90 size=4110479 > /netnix bad magic 407 > netinit failed > phys mem = 2097152 > avail mem = 1879360 > user mem = 307200 > > January 4 08:48:26 init: configure system > > autoconfig: warning: more than three handlers for device tty1 on line 36. > hk ? csr 177440 vector 210 skipped: No autoconfig routines. > ht ? csr 172440 vector 224 skipped: No autoconfig routines. > ra 0 csr 172150 vector 154 vectorset attached > rl ? csr 174400 vector 160 skipped: No autoconfig routines. > tm ? csr 172520 vector 224 skipped: No autoconfig routines. > tms 0 csr 174500 vector 260 vectorset attached > ts ? csr 172520 vector 224 skipped: No autoconfig routines. > xp ? csr 176700 vector 254 skipped: No autoconfig routines. > tty1 1 csr 176500 vector 300 skipped: No autoconfig routines. > tty2 2 csr 176510 vector 310 skipped: No autoconfig routines. > tty3 3 csr 176520 vector 320 skipped: No autoconfig routines. > tty4 4 csr 176530 vector 330 skipped: No autoconfig routines. > tty5 5 csr 176540 vector 340 skipped: No autoconfig routines. > tty6 6 csr 176550 vector 350 skipped: No autoconfig routines. > tty7 7 csr 176560 vector 360 skipped: No autoconfig routines. > erase, kill ^U, intr ^C > # > checking quotas: done. > Assuming NETWORKING system ... > ifconfig: socket: Network is down > ifconfig: socket: Network is down > route: socket: Network is down > route: socket: Network is down > starting system logger > Jan 4 08:56:13 wizard syslogd: cannot create /dev/log: Network is down > checking for core dump... > preserving editor files > clearing /tmp > standard daemons: update cron accounting. > starting network daemons: inetd rwhod printer. > starting local daemons: sendmail. > Thu Jan 4 08:56:26 PST 1990 > > > 2.11 BSD UNIX (wizard) (console) > > login: > > ---------------------------------- > > So, the serial line still don't work and the for some reason the > network won't come up. Looks like more research needed for this. > Based on: "/netnix bad magic 407 netinit failed" it looks like the networking portion of the kernel (built into /netnix) was either not built correctly, or not installed properly. Any errors when building netnix? Do you have a netnix in the build directory for the kernel? Does it match the one in root? As for the serial lines, the line "autoconfig: warning: more than three handlers for device tty1 on line 36." sounds suspicious. I'm not entirely sure that the output from autoconfig indicates failure here -- did you create the device files in /dev corresponding to the serial lines? - Josh > > And now for today's humor. > > During one of the recompiles of the kernel (I had to do it a > couple times to get the BASE and Overlays right. Boy did that > bring back memories. Glad to see I still have the knack for > doing them.) I got the following message: > > base segment is 49152, min is 49152, too small by 0 bytes. > > And, of course, it said the kernel was not BOOTABLE. Maybe that > should say "min is 49153". :-) > > bill > > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 21:25:19 2019 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 22:25:19 -0400 Subject: Model 40 Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information? In-Reply-To: <21db577a0d8a07405251b1e38a7953cc.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <5C9E3763.5060305@pico-systems.com> <4BAE5F72-D37A-4C49-8A71-C83B574BE0C2@gmail.com> <21db577a0d8a07405251b1e38a7953cc.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 8:59 PM Steve Malikoff via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Marc said > > Which brings us to the real problem: we don?t have 360 Model 50 ALDs. > Anyone has them? > > > > Marc > > And same for the Model 40 ALDs. All I have is one or two pages of the 2040 > ALD's and some peripheral ALD's only > saved because I'd drawn artwork on the back, or they got used for book > covering. > I've not scanned them yet but should get to that sometime. Sadly there's > not much there. A while ago I did scan a > tiny fragment of the Model 40 development doc from Hursley > https://archive.org/details/@galasphere347 > > Steve. > What does ALD stand for? Bill From phb.hfx at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 21:29:27 2019 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 23:29:27 -0300 Subject: Model 40 Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information? In-Reply-To: References: <5C9E3763.5060305@pico-systems.com> <4BAE5F72-D37A-4C49-8A71-C83B574BE0C2@gmail.com> <21db577a0d8a07405251b1e38a7953cc.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: On 2019-04-01 11:25 p.m., Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 8:59 PM Steve Malikoff via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Marc said >>> Which brings us to the real problem: we don?t have 360 Model 50 ALDs. >> Anyone has them? >>> Marc >> And same for the Model 40 ALDs. All I have is one or two pages of the 2040 >> ALD's and some peripheral ALD's only >> saved because I'd drawn artwork on the back, or they got used for book >> covering. >> I've not scanned them yet but should get to that sometime. Sadly there's >> not much there. A while ago I did scan a >> tiny fragment of the Model 40 development doc from Hursley >> https://archive.org/details/@galasphere347 >> >> Steve. >> > What does ALD stand for? > Bill Automated Logic Diagram??? they are logic diagrams that where printed on 1403 printer with a special print train. Paul. From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 21:45:45 2019 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 22:45:45 -0400 Subject: Model 40 Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information? In-Reply-To: References: <5C9E3763.5060305@pico-systems.com> <4BAE5F72-D37A-4C49-8A71-C83B574BE0C2@gmail.com> <21db577a0d8a07405251b1e38a7953cc.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: can you show me an example? Long shot but I can at least check to see if I have any in my 360 docs. I have mostly programming manuals and general hardware docs but a stray ALD may be present. On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 10:29 PM Paul Berger via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On 2019-04-01 11:25 p.m., Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 8:59 PM Steve Malikoff via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> Marc said > >>> Which brings us to the real problem: we don?t have 360 Model 50 ALDs. > >> Anyone has them? > >>> Marc > >> And same for the Model 40 ALDs. All I have is one or two pages of the > 2040 > >> ALD's and some peripheral ALD's only > >> saved because I'd drawn artwork on the back, or they got used for book > >> covering. > >> I've not scanned them yet but should get to that sometime. Sadly there's > >> not much there. A while ago I did scan a > >> tiny fragment of the Model 40 development doc from Hursley > >> https://archive.org/details/@galasphere347 > >> > >> Steve. > >> > > What does ALD stand for? > > Bill > > Automated Logic Diagram they are logic diagrams that where printed on > 1403 printer with a special print train. > > Paul. > > From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 21:47:41 2019 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 19:47:41 -0700 Subject: 2.11 BSD on an 11/93 with an CMD SCSI Module In-Reply-To: References: <52057c1e-a4d1-ba80-52c8-35099f941988@bitsavers.org> <20190326235436.7BBE0179BF0@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 5:55 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > OK, here we go with exactly what I get with the new kernel with > NKL = 8 and entries in /etc/dtab for 7 serial lines. > > > January 4 08:48:26 init: configure system > autoconfig: warning: more than three handlers for device tty1 on line 36. > tty1 1 csr 176500 vector 300 skipped: No autoconfig routines. > tty2 2 csr 176510 vector 310 skipped: No autoconfig routines. > tty3 3 csr 176520 vector 320 skipped: No autoconfig routines. > tty4 4 csr 176530 vector 330 skipped: No autoconfig routines. > tty5 5 csr 176540 vector 340 skipped: No autoconfig routines. > tty6 6 csr 176550 vector 350 skipped: No autoconfig routines. > tty7 7 csr 176560 vector 360 skipped: No autoconfig routines. Did you change the "cn" at the beginning of each line you added to the dtab entries below to "tty1" through "tty7"? If so, don't do that. If it is not "cn" the routine src/sys/autoconfig/read_nlist.c: read_nlist() won't be able to correctly link the attach routine pointer for the device entries to src/sys/pdp/cons.c: cnattach() # If you have DL11s, you must give each line an explicit unit number instead # of using a '?' as above. If you use a '?', autoconfig(8) will start # assigning unit numbers starting at 0 which will effectively move your # console to that first line. Start your unit numbers with '1'. # # cn 1 176500 300 5 cnrint cnxint # kl/dl-11 (on mvx11-aa) From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Apr 1 23:21:05 2019 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 21:21:05 -0700 Subject: ISO: Docs for Dilog DQ100 In-Reply-To: <9f7658ce-0fc5-4366-d662-8881d758e537@bitsavers.org> References: <9f7658ce-0fc5-4366-d662-8881d758e537@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Ah, bummer. Thanks for checking, though! On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 2:40 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > rats, after I sent that I remembered it is a Xylogics, not a Dilog > > > On 4/1/19 2:20 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > I have a board and cable. It should match up with the 40 pin cable pinout > > on the Alto. Will double-check it tonight. > > > > On 4/1/19 2:02 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > >> Hey all -- > >> > >> Trying to track down technical info for a Dilog DQ100 controller. This > is > >> a QBus controller compatible with the RK11 (or RKV11, in this case) that > >> works with various RK05-compatible drives. (See the brochure here: > >> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dilog/brochures/DQ100_Brochure_Aug1980.pdf > ) > >> > >> At minimum, I'd like to know the connector pinout so that I might wire > up a > >> Diablo 31 to it. > >> > >> Thanks as always, > >> Josh > >> > > > > From mike at fenz.net Mon Apr 1 23:42:06 2019 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 17:42:06 +1300 Subject: Burroughs BU4400 tape drive. What is it? Message-ID: <4192af8b-9a97-c4a8-c537-c55032ef8cb6@fenz.net> Hi all, I just bought this Burroughs BU4400 tape drive: https://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=1999913439 As the seller says, Google comes up empty. Seems strange, I would have expected some reference somewhere. Does anyone know anything about it? I'm going to pick it up this evening. It'd be superb as a display piece, but I'd be really keen to drive it with something and get it reading and writing. On that topic, are there any suggestions on how I could get my hands on a few tapes, preferably with a format this drive can read? The actual contents aren't important; even blanks would be OK, though not being able to get it reading before moving on to writing would make the project more difficult. Cheers, Mike From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 2 01:46:21 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 23:46:21 -0700 Subject: Burroughs BU4400 tape drive. What is it? In-Reply-To: <4192af8b-9a97-c4a8-c537-c55032ef8cb6@fenz.net> References: <4192af8b-9a97-c4a8-c537-c55032ef8cb6@fenz.net> Message-ID: <52ad59ad-3797-96b5-7c6d-597623495fb9@sydex.com> Judging from the controls and lack of mechanical buffering, I'd pronounce this to be a tape verifier, or possibly a cleaner. The "half cycle" and "slow" are clues. FWIW, --Chuck On 4/1/19 9:42 PM, Mike van Bokhoven via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, > > I just bought this Burroughs BU4400 tape drive: > https://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=1999913439 > As the seller says, Google comes up empty. Seems strange, I would have > expected some reference somewhere. Does anyone know anything about it? > I'm going to pick it up this evening. It'd be superb as a display piece, > but I'd be really keen to drive it with something and get it reading and > writing. > On that topic, are there any suggestions on how I could get my hands on > a few tapes, preferably with a format this drive can read? The actual > contents aren't important; even blanks would be OK, though not being > able to get it reading before moving on to writing would make the > project more difficult. > > Cheers, > Mike > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 05:47:48 2019 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 03:47:48 -0700 Subject: Model 40 Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information? In-Reply-To: References: <5C9E3763.5060305@pico-systems.com> <4BAE5F72-D37A-4C49-8A71-C83B574BE0C2@gmail.com> <21db577a0d8a07405251b1e38a7953cc.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: As Paul said. ALDs are schematics down to the gate level basically. Necessary to make a gate exact emulation, or debug and maintain a real machine. Used to be sent with each and every machine, but sadly not often preserved apparently. Fortunately our IBM 1401?s came with their ALDs. We refer to them every time so something goes wrong. Marc > On Apr 1, 2019, at 7:29 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > > >> On 2019-04-01 11:25 p.m., Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >> On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 8:59 PM Steve Malikoff via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> Marc said >>>> Which brings us to the real problem: we don?t have 360 Model 50 ALDs. >>> Anyone has them? >>>> Marc >>> And same for the Model 40 ALDs. All I have is one or two pages of the 2040 >>> ALD's and some peripheral ALD's only >>> saved because I'd drawn artwork on the back, or they got used for book >>> covering. >>> I've not scanned them yet but should get to that sometime. Sadly there's >>> not much there. A while ago I did scan a >>> tiny fragment of the Model 40 development doc from Hursley >>> https://archive.org/details/@galasphere347 >>> >>> Steve. >>> >> What does ALD stand for? >> Bill > > Automated Logic Diagram they are logic diagrams that where printed on 1403 printer with a special print train. > > Paul. > From krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Apr 2 09:19:16 2019 From: krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Klemens Krause) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 16:19:16 +0200 (MET DST) Subject: PL/M for Wang 600 In-Reply-To: References: <5C9E3763.5060305@pico-systems.com> <4BAE5F72-D37A-4C49-8A71-C83B574BE0C2@gmail.com> <21db577a0d8a07405251b1e38a7953cc.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: Yesterday a visitor in our museum told me, that they used a PL/M compiler on their Wang 600 at the highschool in the mid-70ies. First I couldn't believe this, but he had some handwritten (typwriter) documention about this system. I scanned the papers and put them on our ftp-server: ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/wang/model600_plm Naturally the docu is in german. Has anybody heard about this, or better has more documentation? Klemens -- http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 2 09:49:51 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 07:49:51 -0700 Subject: Model 40 Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information? In-Reply-To: References: <5C9E3763.5060305@pico-systems.com> <4BAE5F72-D37A-4C49-8A71-C83B574BE0C2@gmail.com> <21db577a0d8a07405251b1e38a7953cc.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: On 4/1/19 7:45 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > can you show me an example? Long shot but I can at least check to see if I > have any in my 360 docs. I have mostly programming manuals and general > hardware docs but a stray ALD may be present. ALDs are 11x17, and are marked with the product number on the spine of the n-ring binder From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Apr 2 10:02:50 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2019 10:02:50 -0500 Subject: Model 40 Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information? In-Reply-To: References: <5C9E3763.5060305@pico-systems.com> <4BAE5F72-D37A-4C49-8A71-C83B574BE0C2@gmail.com> <21db577a0d8a07405251b1e38a7953cc.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <5CA3799A.8000004@pico-systems.com> On 04/01/2019 09:45 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > can you show me an example? > I think this may actually be a section of the "ALD"s for a model /50: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/360/fe/2050/2050_Vol18_Sep72.pdf And, this one has pretty detailed info on the microcode flow, listing of operations, etc. (This may be what the OP was already working with.) http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/360/fe/2050/Z22-2833-R_2050_Processing_Unit_Field_Engineering_Diagram_Manual_Jul66.pdf This whole area of bitsavers is well hidden, but has a wealth of hardware information: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/360/fe/ Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Apr 2 10:20:42 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2019 10:20:42 -0500 Subject: Model 40 Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information? In-Reply-To: References: <5C9E3763.5060305@pico-systems.com> <4BAE5F72-D37A-4C49-8A71-C83B574BE0C2@gmail.com> <21db577a0d8a07405251b1e38a7953cc.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <5CA37DCA.2080602@pico-systems.com> On 04/02/2019 09:49 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 4/1/19 7:45 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >> can you show me an example? Long shot but I can at least check to see if I >> have any in my 360 docs. I have mostly programming manuals and general >> hardware docs but a stray ALD may be present. > ALDs are 11x17, and are marked with the product number on the spine of the n-ring binder Not only that, they are marked with the machine serial number, and are specific to that machine. So, any ECOs, or hardware options present in that machine will be shown on the schematics. There will be several other manuals in the set that are not specifically "ALD"s, but are part of the set, such as microcode listings and FLT (Fault Location Test) manuals that reflect ECOs and options. Jon From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 2 11:20:58 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 09:20:58 -0700 Subject: MV II help Message-ID: can anyone help this guy out? From: Benjamin Carlson Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2019 9:12 AM Subject: Fwd: Re: MicroVAX Greta, my name is Ben Carlson and I am attempting to restore an old DEC MicroVAX II for the University of Oklahoma's collections department (see email below, Kerry is their curator). At this point, I believe I can get the hardware operating but I have no operating system for itas the Air Force insisted on destroying the hard drive. I have been able to replace the hard drive and the system has a tape drive and CD-ROM. Do you have any idea where I might find the OS? Also, any documentation would be great as well. Thanks for your help! Benjamin Carlson, PhD, CISSP Senior Research Engineer North Point Defense Rome, NY (315)571-0221 x 1010 From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Apr 2 11:29:03 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 16:29:03 +0000 Subject: 2.11 BSD on an 11/93 with an CMD SCSI Module In-Reply-To: References: <52057c1e-a4d1-ba80-52c8-35099f941988@bitsavers.org> <20190326235436.7BBE0179BF0@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On 4/1/19 9:56 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > > Based on: > "/netnix bad magic 407 > netinit failed" > > it looks like the networking portion of the kernel (built into /netnix) > was either not built correctly, or not installed properly.? Any errors > when building netnix?? Do you have a netnix in the build directory for > the kernel?? Does it match the one in root? That one was on me. I missed the NETHERS in the config. Networking now works. > > As for the serial lines, the line "autoconfig: warning: more than three > handlers for device tty1 on line 36." sounds suspicious. No doubt about that, but I don;t know what it means and I don't remember ever seeing it when I ran 2.09 many years a go. > I'm not > entirely sure that the output from autoconfig indicates failure here -- > did you create the device files in /dev corresponding to the serial lines? Yep. Made the devices in /dev. Looks like autoconfig is either not finding the devices or not finding the proper drivers for those devices. bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Apr 2 11:39:28 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 16:39:28 +0000 Subject: 2.11 BSD on an 11/93 with an CMD SCSI Module In-Reply-To: References: <52057c1e-a4d1-ba80-52c8-35099f941988@bitsavers.org> <20190326235436.7BBE0179BF0@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On 4/1/19 10:47 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 5:55 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: >> >> OK, here we go with exactly what I get with the new kernel with >> NKL = 8 and entries in /etc/dtab for 7 serial lines. >> >> >> January 4 08:48:26 init: configure system > >> autoconfig: warning: more than three handlers for device tty1 on line 36. > >> tty1 1 csr 176500 vector 300 skipped: No autoconfig routines. >> tty2 2 csr 176510 vector 310 skipped: No autoconfig routines. >> tty3 3 csr 176520 vector 320 skipped: No autoconfig routines. >> tty4 4 csr 176530 vector 330 skipped: No autoconfig routines. >> tty5 5 csr 176540 vector 340 skipped: No autoconfig routines. >> tty6 6 csr 176550 vector 350 skipped: No autoconfig routines. >> tty7 7 csr 176560 vector 360 skipped: No autoconfig routines. > > Did you change the "cn" at the beginning of each line you added to the > dtab entries below to "tty1" through "tty7"? If so, don't do that. If > it is not "cn" the routine src/sys/autoconfig/read_nlist.c: > read_nlist() won't be able to correctly link the attach routine > pointer for the device entries to src/sys/pdp/cons.c: cnattach() OK. I put them back to cn (I thought cn stood for console and the ttys would be different, but fixed now). Sadly, I still get the "more than three handlers" message and attempts to run getty go nuts. :-) bill From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Apr 2 11:39:54 2019 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 16:39:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: MV II help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45EDE28BA078CAB1.67bc02d7-2b79-4fc3-8f99-923d5ea3ba63@mail.outlook.com> I will reply to email. On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 5:21 PM +0100, "Al Kossow via cctalk" wrote: can anyone help this guy out? From: Benjamin Carlson Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2019 9:12 AM Subject: Fwd: Re: MicroVAX Greta, my name is Ben Carlson and I am attempting to restore an old DEC MicroVAX II for the University of Oklahoma's collections department (see email below, Kerry is their curator). At this point, I believe I can get the hardware operating but I have no operating system for itas the Air Force insisted on destroying the hard drive. I have been able to replace the hard drive and the system has a tape drive and CD-ROM. Do you have any idea where I might find the OS? Also, any documentation would be great as well. Thanks for your help! Benjamin Carlson, PhD, CISSP Senior Research Engineer North Point Defense Rome, NY (315)571-0221 x 1010 From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Apr 2 11:44:27 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 16:44:27 +0000 Subject: MV II help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/2/19 12:20 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > can anyone help this guy out? > > From: Benjamin Carlson > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2019 9:12 AM > > Subject: Fwd: Re: MicroVAX > > Greta, my name is Ben Carlson and I am attempting to restore an old DEC MicroVAX II for the University of Oklahoma's > collections department (see email below, Kerry is their curator). At this point, I believe I can get the hardware > operating but I have no operating system for itas the Air Force insisted on destroying the hard drive. I have been able > to replace the hard drive and the system has a tape drive and CD-ROM. > Do you have any idea where I might find the OS? Also, any documentation would be great as well. > Thanks for your help! > > Benjamin Carlson, PhD, CISSP > Senior Research Engineer > North Point Defense > Rome, NY > (315)571-0221 x 1010 > > A number of choices for OS. OpenBSD or NetBSD should still work depending on the actual configuration of the system and VMS still has a hobbyist license. bill From allisonportable at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 11:53:24 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 12:53:24 -0400 Subject: The story of... PDP-1 In-Reply-To: <23B46316-F0CD-4876-964D-EBAF41C0E02D@comcast.net> References: <23B46316-F0CD-4876-964D-EBAF41C0E02D@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 04/01/2019 08:34 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Nice. The bit about the PDP-1 at the skydiving world championship (in Orange, MA) is still a well known item in the history of skydiving. > > paul Orange MA airport is still an active skydiving site. I used to fly there regularly for cheap fuel for the 150 and the mid summer hit and miss engine show. For me all of this and the mixx is anything but history as it was where I worked for 10 years and around the area long after. Allison >> On Apr 1, 2019, at 5:23 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >> >> DEC archival docs tell the story of the genesis of the PDP-1: >> >> https://gordonbell.azurewebsites.net/digital/timeline/pdp-1story.htm >> >> -- >> Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven >> Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com >> Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven >> UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 12:01:35 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 18:01:35 +0100 Subject: MV II help In-Reply-To: <45EDE28BA078CAB1.67bc02d7-2b79-4fc3-8f99-923d5ea3ba63@mail.outlook.com> References: <45EDE28BA078CAB1.67bc02d7-2b79-4fc3-8f99-923d5ea3ba63@mail.outlook.com> Message-ID: <1e6301d4e975$bb8862b0$32992810$@gmail.com> It depends on which OS he actually wants to run. Some one recently posted info on old versions of VMS on the VMS Usenet Newsgroup which might be appropriate. Otherwise, as I am sure Rob knows there is a lot of stuff on Vaxhaven Dave. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt via > cctalk > Sent: 02 April 2019 17:40 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > ; Al Kossow > Subject: Re: MV II help > > I will reply to email. > > > > > On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 5:21 PM +0100, "Al Kossow via cctalk" > wrote: > > > > can anyone help this guy out? > > From: Benjamin Carlson > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2019 9:12 AM > > Subject: Fwd: Re: MicroVAX > > Greta, my name is Ben Carlson and I am attempting to restore an old DEC > MicroVAX II for the University of Oklahoma's collections department (see > email below, Kerry is their curator). At this point, I believe I can get the > hardware operating but I have no operating system for itas the Air Force > insisted on destroying the hard drive. I have been able to replace the hard > drive and the system has a tape drive and CD-ROM. > Do you have any idea where I might find the OS? Also, any documentation > would be great as well. > Thanks for your help! > > Benjamin Carlson, PhD, CISSP > Senior Research Engineer > North Point Defense > Rome, NY > (315)571-0221 x 1010 > > > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 2 12:27:36 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 10:27:36 -0700 Subject: MV II help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <209ebf15-a043-f042-2b4a-70bd7984ffb3@sydex.com> On 4/2/19 9:44 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > A number of choices for OS. OpenBSD or NetBSD should still work > depending on the actual configuration of the system and VMS still > has a hobbyist license. PDP11s were used in various places around the USAF. I duplicated a bunch of RX50 floppies for the 11s used at Warner-Robbins as part of the setup for maintaining C130s. I probably have the images kicking around in case someone has a C130 parked in their garage waiting for service. --Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 13:26:48 2019 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 11:26:48 -0700 Subject: 2.11 BSD on an 11/93 with an CMD SCSI Module In-Reply-To: References: <52057c1e-a4d1-ba80-52c8-35099f941988@bitsavers.org> <20190326235436.7BBE0179BF0@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 9:39 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > OK. I put them back to cn (I thought cn stood for console and the ttys > would be different, but fixed now). Sadly, I still get the "more than > three handlers" message and attempts to run getty go nuts. :-) What exactly do you have for the "cn" device entries in /etc/dtab ? #Name Unit# Addr Vector Br Handler(s) # Comments # If you have DL11s, you must give each line an explicit unit number instead # of using a '?' as above. If you use a '?', autoconfig(8) will start # assigning unit numbers starting at 0 which will effectively move your # console to that first line. Start your unit numbers with '1'. # # cn 1 176500 300 5 cnrint cnxint # kl/dl-11 (on mvx11-aa) "handlers" here refers to the receive interrupt handler "cnrint" and the transmit interrupt handler "cnxint". Did you alter anything on the device entries other than the unit number, csr address, and vector address? Try deleting everything on the device entry lines after "cnxint" (For reference, "cnrint" and "cnxint" are the names of the interrupt handler routines in src/sys/pdp/cons.c Those names have to match to be able to link up the pointers to the interrupt handlers). From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Apr 2 14:44:39 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 19:44:39 +0000 Subject: MV II help In-Reply-To: <209ebf15-a043-f042-2b4a-70bd7984ffb3@sydex.com> References: <209ebf15-a043-f042-2b4a-70bd7984ffb3@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 4/2/19 1:27 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 4/2/19 9:44 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > >> A number of choices for OS. OpenBSD or NetBSD should still work >> depending on the actual configuration of the system and VMS still >> has a hobbyist license. > > PDP11s were used in various places around the USAF. I duplicated a > bunch of RX50 floppies for the 11s used at Warner-Robbins as part of the > setup for maintaining C130s. I probably have the images kicking around > in case someone has a C130 parked in their garage waiting for service. > Ummm... That's MV II or MicroVAX-II, not PDP-11. Of course, I do have PDP-11's running here but no C-130's parked around the place. Was impressed with the improvements in the J model in 2009, however. :-) bill From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Apr 2 14:56:15 2019 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 12:56:15 -0700 Subject: Not DEC related but still hoping for some help: Problems w/ LJ 4+ Printer Message-ID: <008101d4e98e$22207f90$66617eb0$@net> I rescued a LaserJet 4+ printer that I have been trying to restore. Initially everything seemed ok and it seemed as if there may be just a bit of an issue with paper pickup which I attributed to old paper in the tray. However, soon I started getting the accordion paper jam which led me to replacing all the rollers including the transfer roller. Now the paper flows freely! However, I am having a new problem with printing. When I print, the first 5-10 pages initially come out blank. The printer does not produce any errors or error codes. The blank pages are warm (not hot though) as expected out of a LJ. After closer inspection it seems that the pages are printed SUPER light and gradually get darker the more I use the printer continuously. Eventually the printer starts printing continuous crisp black pages like new. This is a whole page phenomenon (i.e. not gaps, missing areas, etc.). A picture of the effect can be seen on VFC at: www.vcfed.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=52120&d=1554074105 Sorry for the poor quality picture. Things I have checked/tried: 1. Using a brand new NOS toner (according to HP toner does not go bad as long as it was sealed - which this was) 2. Swapping the new transfer roller for the old one - same problem, I have to print out a bunch of pages until the printer starts acting normally. 3. I have checked the HV and an image is being transferred to the drum on the toner cartridge. 4. A visual inspection of the fuser shows it to be ok. Obviously this is happening printing demo pages so it has nothing to do with computer, OS, SW, drivers, etc. Anybody run into this before? Any ideas/suggestions. My Google fu turned up a bunch of discussions on the laser door not being aligned correctly but that would seem to be a more permanent issue i.e. unless you fixed the door no pages should print ever. Mine gets better on its own after a number of pages are printed. Plus the door and spring are fine - I checked them just in case. I tried posting on FixYourOwnPrinter.com but for whatever reason the site was not accepting the question. Any other forums you guys would recommend? TIA! -Ali From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 15:08:01 2019 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 17:08:01 -0300 Subject: Not DEC related but still hoping for some help: Problems w/ LJ 4+ Printer In-Reply-To: <008101d4e98e$22207f90$66617eb0$@net> References: <008101d4e98e$22207f90$66617eb0$@net> Message-ID: If I'm not mistaken, high voltage capacitors on power supply. The corona wire isn't charging the paper, so the image doesn't get transfered from the cylinder to the paper to be pressed/fused in the fusor. ---8<---Corte aqui---8<--- http://www.tabajara-labs.blogspot.com http://www.tabalabs.com.br ---8<---Corte aqui---8<--- Em ter, 2 de abr de 2019 ?s 16:56, Ali via cctalk escreveu: > I rescued a LaserJet 4+ printer that I have been trying to restore. > Initially everything seemed ok and it seemed as if there may be just a bit > of an issue with paper pickup which I attributed to old paper in the tray. > > However, soon I started getting the accordion paper jam which led me to > replacing all the rollers including the transfer roller. Now the paper > flows > freely! However, I am having a new problem with printing. When I print, the > first 5-10 pages initially come out blank. The printer does not produce any > errors or error codes. The blank pages are warm (not hot though) as > expected > out of a LJ. > > After closer inspection it seems that the pages are printed SUPER light and > gradually get darker the more I use the printer continuously. Eventually > the > printer starts printing continuous crisp black pages like new. This is a > whole page phenomenon (i.e. not gaps, missing areas, etc.). > > A picture of the effect can be seen on VFC at: > www.vcfed.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=52120&d=1554074105 > > Sorry for the poor quality picture. > > Things I have checked/tried: > > 1. Using a brand new NOS toner (according to HP toner does not go bad as > long as it was sealed - which this was) > 2. Swapping the new transfer roller for the old one - same problem, I have > to print out a bunch of pages until the printer starts acting normally. > 3. I have checked the HV and an image is being transferred to the drum on > the toner cartridge. > 4. A visual inspection of the fuser shows it to be ok. > > Obviously this is happening printing demo pages so it has nothing to do > with > computer, OS, SW, drivers, etc. Anybody run into this before? Any > ideas/suggestions. My Google fu turned up a bunch of discussions on the > laser door not being aligned correctly but that would seem to be a more > permanent issue i.e. unless you fixed the door no pages should print ever. > Mine gets better on its own after a number of pages are printed. Plus the > door and spring are fine - I checked them just in case. > > I tried posting on FixYourOwnPrinter.com but for whatever reason the site > was not accepting the question. Any other forums you guys would recommend? > TIA! > > -Ali > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 2 15:08:40 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 13:08:40 -0700 Subject: MV II help In-Reply-To: References: <209ebf15-a043-f042-2b4a-70bd7984ffb3@sydex.com> Message-ID: <99c84f32-1187-df37-b838-955bff39b62f@sydex.com> On 4/2/19 12:44 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Ummm... That's MV II or MicroVAX-II, not PDP-11. > > Of course, I do have PDP-11's running here but no C-130's parked > around the place. Was impressed with the improvements in the J > model in 2009, however. :-) Could be--I generally don't pay much attention to content, but could well have been anything DEC-ish. Just that it took RS50 floppies and I know what it was used for. But MV sounds better. --Chuck From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Apr 2 15:09:50 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 14:09:50 -0600 Subject: Not DEC related but still hoping for some help: Problems w/ LJ 4+ Printer In-Reply-To: <008101d4e98e$22207f90$66617eb0$@net> References: <008101d4e98e$22207f90$66617eb0$@net> Message-ID: <6dd90e33-856e-8f93-9ac4-8b7f080e5fa8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 4/2/19 1:56 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote: > I rescued a LaserJet 4+ printer that I have been trying to restore. I miss my 4M+ with duplexer and extra paper tray. :-( > Initially everything seemed ok and it seemed as if there may be just a bit > of an issue with paper pickup which I attributed to old paper in the tray. I've found that the age of the paper isn't as important as any dust accumulated on the top sheet. > However, soon I started getting the accordion paper jam which led me to > replacing all the rollers including the transfer roller. Now the paper > flows freely! Ya. > However, I am having a new problem with printing. When I print, the > first 5-10 pages initially come out blank. The printer does not produce > any errors or error codes. The blank pages are warm (not hot though) > as expected out of a LJ. I thought that there was a temperature sensor to detect how hot the fuser is and error if it's not warm enough. > After closer inspection it seems that the pages are printed > SUPER light and gradually get darker the more I use the printer > continuously. Eventually the printer starts printing continuous crisp > black pages like new. This is a whole page phenomenon (i.e. not gaps, > missing areas, etc.). What? I would question if there is an issue with the High Voltage and transferring from the transfer roller to the paper. But you said you checked the High Voltage. I thought the printer would detect this error condition too. > A picture of the effect can be seen on VFC at: > www.vcfed.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=52120&d=1554074105 > > Sorry for the poor quality picture. I can't sign in to look at the picture. If I can, I'll look at it later. > Things I have checked/tried: > > 1. Using a brand new NOS toner (according to HP toner does not go bad > as long as it was sealed - which this was) > 2. Swapping the new transfer roller for the old one - same problem, I have > to print out a bunch of pages until the printer starts acting normally. > 3. I have checked the HV and an image is being transferred to the drum > on the toner cartridge. How dark is the image that's being transferred to the drum? If the normal image is being transferred and toner is being consumed, I would wonder where the toner is going. How clean / dirty is the fuser cleaning pad? > 4. A visual inspection of the fuser shows it to be ok. This doesn't sound like a fuser issue that I recall. Unless it's not warm enough. (Again, the printer should detect this.) > Obviously this is happening printing demo pages so it has nothing to do > with computer, OS, SW, drivers, etc. Agreed. > Anybody run into this before? Any ideas/suggestions. My Google fu turned > up a bunch of discussions on the laser door not being aligned correctly > but that would seem to be a more permanent issue i.e. unless you fixed > the door no pages should print ever. Agreed. > Mine gets better on its own after a number of pages are printed. Plus > the door and spring are fine - I checked them just in case. So, it needs to be something that can change while the printer is operating. The things that come to mind are shifting High Voltage (?) and temperature. The other thing that comes to mind is possibly toner caked up in the toner cartridge. How long can you wait after getting a good printout before they start to fade again? (Assuming the printer stays on.) > I tried posting on FixYourOwnPrinter.com but for whatever reason the > site was not accepting the question. Any other forums you guys would > recommend? TIA! I'll share your email with a friend who was a certified HP LaserJet repairman. (I just pretended to be one a couple of jobs ago). -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Apr 2 15:26:56 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 14:26:56 -0600 Subject: Not DEC related but still hoping for some help: Problems w/ LJ 4+ Printer In-Reply-To: <6dd90e33-856e-8f93-9ac4-8b7f080e5fa8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <008101d4e98e$22207f90$66617eb0$@net> <6dd90e33-856e-8f93-9ac4-8b7f080e5fa8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 4/2/19 2:09 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I'll share your email with a friend who was a certified HP LaserJet > repairman.? (I just pretended to be one a couple of jobs ago). My friend replied with the following: """ - Bad / dirty contacts to the hi voltage - Bad high voltage - Bad DC power supply. """ -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Apr 2 15:47:44 2019 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 13:47:44 -0700 Subject: Not DEC related but still hoping for some help: Problems w/ LJ 4+ Printer In-Reply-To: <6dd90e33-856e-8f93-9ac4-8b7f080e5fa8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <008101d4e98e$22207f90$66617eb0$@net> <6dd90e33-856e-8f93-9ac4-8b7f080e5fa8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <009101d4e995$53d31b90$fb7952b0$@net> Grant, > I miss my 4M+ with duplexer and extra paper tray. :-( Yes, these guys were built like tanks. This one acts as a 4M now because I added the PS module to it and it has local talk support. No duplexer or extra paper tray though :(. > I've found that the age of the paper isn't as important as any dust > accumulated on the top sheet. I will have to keep that in mind. This paper was old - not sure how old but it was in the tray when I found the printer on the side of the road. So better to recycle it then risk it I think. > I thought that there was a temperature sensor to detect how hot the > fuser is and error if it's not warm enough. It may be "hot enough". They are certainly warm. And I don't detect them getting any hotter to touch as more printing goes on so this part could all be in my head. > I can't sign in to look at the picture. If I can, I'll look at it > later. I can post it elsewhere if needed. It basically shows the picture getting darker with subsequent printings. > How dark is the image that's being transferred to the drum? I am not sure how to quantify it but it looks solid on the drum. I will have to repeat the test with a "cool" printer and see if it still looks solid or not. > If the normal image is being transferred and toner is being consumed, I > would wonder where the toner is going. Never thought about it but the extra toner (I assume not all the toner is being transferred to every page of print) must get swept up back in to the cartridge somewhere, no? > > How clean / dirty is the fuser cleaning pad? Not too bad. It is worth mentioning that the printer doesn't seem abused in its old life either. Only 65K of prints... > The things that come to mind are shifting High Voltage (?) and > temperature. Both of which should produce an error usually... > > The other thing that comes to mind is possibly toner caked up in the > toner cartridge. I thought about bad toner but that doesn't explain the improvement with time/prints. Or why it would go bad again after cooling down. > > How long can you wait after getting a good printout before they start > to > fade again? (Assuming the printer stays on.) I would say 5 - 10 minutes. Once I get good quality prints the subsequent pages all look great... > I'll share your email with a friend who was a certified HP LaserJet > repairman. (I just pretended to be one a couple of jobs ago). ... > My friend replied with the following: >""" > - Bad / dirty contacts to the hi voltage > - Bad high voltage > - Bad DC power supply. > > > -- Thanks that was quick! I am pulling out the HV portion now to take a look. If I understand correct the DC (LV) supplies everything else except the engine. Those all seem to be working fine. Cleaning contacts is easy (and cheap) so that will be my first fix unless I see something glaringly obvious with the caps on the HV. Thank you. -Ali From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Apr 2 15:47:44 2019 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 13:47:44 -0700 Subject: Not DEC related but still hoping for some help: Problems w/ LJ 4+ Printer In-Reply-To: References: <008101d4e98e$22207f90$66617eb0$@net> Message-ID: <009201d4e995$543eaea0$fcbc0be0$@net> >If I'm not mistaken, high voltage capacitors on power supply. The corona wire isn't >charging the paper, so the image doesn't get transferred from the cylinder to the paper to >be pressed/fused in the fusor. Alexander, Thanks for the reply. Grant also suggested the same thing. I am turning the printer upside down as I write this to pull out the HV and see if anything looks bad from the get go. Thanks! -Ali From mike at fenz.net Tue Apr 2 17:04:46 2019 From: mike at fenz.net (mike at fenz.net) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2019 11:04:46 +1300 Subject: Burroughs BU4400 tape drive. What is it? In-Reply-To: <52ad59ad-3797-96b5-7c6d-597623495fb9@sydex.com> References: <4192af8b-9a97-c4a8-c537-c55032ef8cb6@fenz.net> <52ad59ad-3797-96b5-7c6d-597623495fb9@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20190403110446.Horde.mf3XpMqyT6rmdj8oBwYfWBH@maria.whsl206.com> Quoting Chuck Guzis via cctalk : > Judging from the controls and lack of mechanical buffering, I'd > pronounce this to be a tape verifier, or possibly a cleaner. The "half > cycle" and "slow" are clues. >> I just bought this Burroughs BU4400 tape drive: >> https://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=1999913439 Looks like you're right! I'm pretty sure it's a cleaner. Everything on it seems to work well, once I figured out how it was intended to work. Just had fool the tape optical sensor (BOT/EOT?) with a piece of paper and it started up fine. It only seems to want to go 'slow' in reverse, but that may be something to do with the lack of tape. I like the tape counter a lot. It shows error codes when they occur, and is a dot matrix style LED display (perhaps not true dot matrix, just something nicer looking than a 7-segment display). So, that's good news - to demo it fully all I need is a reel of tape, rather than needing to find or implement a controller as well. I'm in New Zealand, but I think I'd be lucky to find anything here. As a fallback, there is plenty on eBay, at least. If anyone has some damaged or otherwise unusable tape that's only suitable for demonstrating a cleaner, please drop me a note. Cheers, Mike From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Apr 2 17:20:36 2019 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 15:20:36 -0700 Subject: Not DEC related but still hoping for some help: Problems w/ LJ 4+ Printer In-Reply-To: References: <008101d4e98e$22207f90$66617eb0$@net> <6dd90e33-856e-8f93-9ac4-8b7f080e5fa8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <009d01d4e9a2$4cc17e70$e6447b50$@net> > > """ > - Bad / dirty contacts to the hi voltage > - Bad high voltage > - Bad DC power supply. > """ Grant, So I took out the HV board and it was super dirty (I added pictures on the thread in VCF at www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?69109-Help-with-LJ-4-Printer-Repair-Please&p=564565 ). Nothing that should really prevent electrical flow but I cleaned it out anyhow. Re-installed and the issue remained. While the printer was cold I ran another HV test and interestingly the toner drum had a very faint picture on the drum. So it looks like the toner is not being deposited on the drum appropriately until something "warms up". The question now is, is this a toner problem (since I believe the corona wire is in the cartridge) or a HV problem. Since I am not getting error codes I am guessing the cartridge is bad for one reason or another.... How likely is that in your experience vs. the HV board going bad and just not erroring out? Two of the caps look like they may have leaked on the HV board (see the stains on the PCB in the before picture?). However, I don't see any bulging capacitors or anything blown. Thanks. -Ali From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 2 17:37:46 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 15:37:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Not DEC related but still hoping for some help: Problems w/ LJ 4+ Printer In-Reply-To: <009d01d4e9a2$4cc17e70$e6447b50$@net> References: <008101d4e98e$22207f90$66617eb0$@net> <6dd90e33-856e-8f93-9ac4-8b7f080e5fa8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <009d01d4e9a2$4cc17e70$e6447b50$@net> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Apr 2019, Ali via cctalk wrote: > While the printer was cold I ran another HV test and interestingly the > toner drum had a very faint picture on the drum. So it looks like the > toner is not being deposited on the drum appropriately until something > "warms up". The question now is, is this a toner problem (since I > believe the corona wire is in the cartridge) or a HV problem. Since I am > not getting error codes I am guessing the cartridge is bad for one > reason or another.... How likely is that in your experience vs. the HV > board going bad and just not erroring out? Two of the caps look like > they may have leaked on the HV board (see the stains on the PCB in the > before picture?). However, I don't see any bulging capacitors or > anything blown. Thanks. Since you are presumably going to keep this printer, once you fix it, or at least use it for large jobs where wasting the first few pages isn't a big issue, I would suggest getting another cartridge. You will need it, eventually. And, it provides a simple test to support or reject the in-the-crtridge hypoothesis. Trying another cartridge is almost always one of the first tests. Those are sweet printers. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From guykd at optusnet.com.au Tue Apr 2 17:57:01 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2019 09:57:01 +1100 Subject: Not DEC related but still hoping for some help: Problems w/ LJ 4+ Printer In-Reply-To: <009201d4e995$543eaea0$fcbc0be0$@net> References: <008101d4e98e$22207f90$66617eb0$@net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190403095701.00e16970@mail.optusnet.com.au> Or the drum isn't getting charged in the first place, before light exposure then toner dusting. A way to check this: while the machine is in mid-copy, cut the power then open it up and look at the drum. Is there a toner image adhered to the drum section between where the surface is image-exposed then dusted, and where it rolls against the paper? Btw, if the fuser roller isn't heated enough, the symptom is that the paper comes out with a normal image, except the toner wipes off with finger swipe. Since it's just sitting on the paper not stuck to it. Old toner cartridges should be given a strong end-to-end shaking before being put into use. Toner can settle in lumps and block the path to the duster. While you have the machine apart, always clean all the optical path lens surfaces. Dust greatly reduces the print contrast. And because most machines use fan-blown air, dust gets everywhere that isn't absolutely airtight sealed. One other tip that might be useful. Very commonly with old photocopiers and laser printers the rubber pick-up and paper feed rollers lose their 'tack' and slip on the paper. I found that briefly soaking them in teatree oil restores the 'tack' quite well. It soaks in and seems to have the right spread of rubber-soluble oils to keep the surface a little tacky. Anyone else found other solvent/oils with similar effect? Guy At 01:47 PM 2/04/2019 -0700, you wrote: >>If I'm not mistaken, high voltage capacitors on power supply. The corona wire isn't >charging the paper, so the image doesn't get transferred from the cylinder to the paper to >be pressed/fused in the fusor. > > >Alexander, > >Thanks for the reply. Grant also suggested the same thing. I am turning the printer upside down as I write this to pull out the HV and see if anything looks bad from the get go. Thanks! > >-Ali > > > > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Apr 2 19:09:22 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 00:09:22 +0000 Subject: 2.11 BSD on an 11/93 with an CMD SCSI Module In-Reply-To: References: <52057c1e-a4d1-ba80-52c8-35099f941988@bitsavers.org> <20190326235436.7BBE0179BF0@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On 4/2/19 2:26 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 9:39 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: >> >> OK. I put them back to cn (I thought cn stood for console and the ttys >> would be different, but fixed now). Sadly, I still get the "more than >> three handlers" message and attempts to run getty go nuts. :-) > > What exactly do you have for the "cn" device entries in /etc/dtab ? > > #Name Unit# Addr Vector Br Handler(s) # Comments > > # If you have DL11s, you must give each line an explicit unit number instead > # of using a '?' as above. If you use a '?', autoconfig(8) will start > # assigning unit numbers starting at 0 which will effectively move your > # console to that first line. Start your unit numbers with '1'. > # > # cn 1 176500 300 5 cnrint cnxint # kl/dl-11 (on mvx11-aa) > > "handlers" here refers to the receive interrupt handler "cnrint" and > the transmit interrupt handler "cnxint". Did you alter anything on the > device entries other than the unit number, csr address, and vector > address? > > Try deleting everything on the device entry lines after "cnxint" > > (For reference, "cnrint" and "cnxint" are the names of the interrupt > handler routines in src/sys/pdp/cons.c Those names have to match to > be able to link up the pointers to the interrupt handlers). > Let's make it simple. Here's that section of my dtab file: # If you have DL11s, you must give each line an explicit unit number instead # of using a '?' as above. If you use a '?', autoconfig(8) will start # assigning unit numbers starting at 0 which will effectively move your # console to that first line. Start your unit numbers with '1'. # # cn 1 176500 300 5 cnrint cnxint # kl/dl-11 (on mvx11-aa) cn 1 176500 300 5 cnrint cnxint cn 2 176510 310 5 cnrint cnxint cn 3 176520 320 5 cnrint cnxint cn 4 176530 330 5 cnrint cnxint cn 5 176540 340 5 cnrint cnxint cn 6 176550 350 5 cnrint cnxint cn 7 176560 360 5 cnrint cnxint Addresses and vectors were taken from the startup menu presented by the 11/93 at power-up. bill From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Apr 2 19:28:41 2019 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 17:28:41 -0700 Subject: Not DEC related but still hoping for some help: Problems w/ LJ 4+ Printer In-Reply-To: References: <008101d4e98e$22207f90$66617eb0$@net> <6dd90e33-856e-8f93-9ac4-8b7f080e5fa8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <009d01d4e9a2$4cc17e70$e6447b50$@net> Message-ID: <00b701d4e9b4$3253ba00$96fb2e00$@net> > Since you are presumably going to keep this printer, once you fix it, > or > at least use it for large jobs where wasting the first few pages isn't > a > big issue, I would suggest getting another cartridge. > You will need it, eventually. > And, it provides a simple test to support or reject the in-the-crtridge > hypoothesis. > > Trying another cartridge is almost always one of the first tests. Fred, I am considering it but as my only source for a cartridge seems to be eBay it may not make much of a difference either way (in terms of having to wait for it to arrive and wondering if that's any good.. :)). I am going to order a cartridge anyhow and in the mean time I may just recap the board for good measure. Since this is not my usual cup of tea ordering parts is a pain. I am ordering one offs and then paying for S&H so the total cost is a pin compared to some guys who just have supplies in bins around... > > Those are sweet printers. Yes they are. Currently all of my main printers are rescues: a Color LJ 5500HDN, LJ 2100, LS 4Si and this one which is actually going to a family member once I can guarantee trouble free printing... -Ali > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Apr 2 19:28:41 2019 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 17:28:41 -0700 Subject: Not DEC related but still hoping for some help: Problems w/ LJ 4+ Printer In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190403095701.00e16970@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <008101d4e98e$22207f90$66617eb0$@net> <3.0.6.32.20190403095701.00e16970@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <00b601d4e9b4$31d6e8e0$9584baa0$@net> Hello Guy, > Or the drum isn't getting charged in the first place, before light > exposure then toner dusting. > A way to check this: while the machine is in mid-copy, cut the power > then open it up and look at the drum. > Is there a toner image adhered to the drum section between where the > surface is image-exposed then dusted, and where it rolls against the > paper? As I alluded to in my OP I did do this test. When I looked at the drum after I start getting normal prints there is an image. However, at Grant's suggestion I also looked at it when the printer was first turned on. At this point there is very minimal toner adhering to the drum. As I print more and more an appropriate amount of toner seems to adhere to the drum explaining the improving picture. What I am trying to determine is now if this is a problem with a component in the cartridge (drum, corona wire, etc.) or is it with the HV supply board. > Btw, if the fuser roller isn't heated enough, the symptom is that the > paper comes out with a normal image, except > the toner wipes off with finger swipe. Since it's just sitting on the > paper not stuck to it. It is definitely not doing that. The toner is stuck on nice and tight - once it eventually gets there. > > Old toner cartridges should be given a strong end-to-end shaking before > being put into use. Toner can settle in > lumps and block the path to the duster. I have done this multiple times. However, the problem reappears. > While you have the machine apart, always clean all the optical path > lens surfaces. Dust greatly reduces the print contrast. And because > most machines use fan-blown air, dust gets everywhere that isn't > absolutely airtight sealed. I have done that as well. However, given that the quality improves with repeated printing and then falls back to none after 5 to 10 minutes of cooling I don't think dust is an issue. > One other tip that might be useful. Very commonly with old photocopiers > and laser printers the rubber pick-up and paper feed rollers lose their > 'tack' and slip on the paper. I found that briefly soaking them in > teatree oil restores the 'tack' quite well. It soaks in and seems to > have the right spread of rubber-soluble oils to keep the surface a > little tacky. > Anyone else found other solvent/oils with similar effect? I have never tried the oil/solvent trick. However, I did replace all the rollers on this printer due to a paper jam issue so I don't think that is the problem. Thanks for the input and the suggestions. -Ali -Ali From dmabry at mich.com Tue Apr 2 19:38:44 2019 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 20:38:44 -0400 Subject: Not DEC related but still hoping for some help: Problems w/ LJ 4+ Printer In-Reply-To: <008101d4e98e$22207f90$66617eb0$@net> References: <008101d4e98e$22207f90$66617eb0$@net> Message-ID: <813cc193-54b5-31c1-468d-b3138714dafe@mich.com> Ali via cctalk wrote on 4/2/2019 3:56 PM: > I rescued a LaserJet 4+ printer that I have been trying to restore. > Initially everything seemed ok and it seemed as if there may be just a bit > of an issue with paper pickup which I attributed to old paper in the tray. > > However, soon I started getting the accordion paper jam which led me to > replacing all the rollers including the transfer roller. Now the paper flows > freely! However, I am having a new problem with printing. When I print, the > first 5-10 pages initially come out blank. The printer does not produce any > errors or error codes. The blank pages are warm (not hot though) as expected > out of a LJ. > > After closer inspection it seems that the pages are printed SUPER light and > gradually get darker the more I use the printer continuously. Eventually the > printer starts printing continuous crisp black pages like new. This is a > whole page phenomenon (i.e. not gaps, missing areas, etc.). > > A picture of the effect can be seen on VFC at: > www.vcfed.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=52120&d=1554074105 > > Sorry for the poor quality picture. > > Things I have checked/tried: > > 1. Using a brand new NOS toner (according to HP toner does not go bad as > long as it was sealed - which this was) > 2. Swapping the new transfer roller for the old one - same problem, I have > to print out a bunch of pages until the printer starts acting normally. > 3. I have checked the HV and an image is being transferred to the drum on > the toner cartridge. > 4. A visual inspection of the fuser shows it to be ok. > > Obviously this is happening printing demo pages so it has nothing to do with > computer, OS, SW, drivers, etc. Anybody run into this before? Any > ideas/suggestions. My Google fu turned up a bunch of discussions on the > laser door not being aligned correctly but that would seem to be a more > permanent issue i.e. unless you fixed the door no pages should print ever. > Mine gets better on its own after a number of pages are printed. Plus the > door and spring are fine - I checked them just in case. > > I tried posting on FixYourOwnPrinter.com but for whatever reason the site > was not accepting the question. Any other forums you guys would recommend? > TIA! > > -Ali > Just my little bit of input on this...the high voltage power supply is just about the only thing that there is no error code for.? I had one fail and the printer didn't flag any errors.? Changing the HV supply fixed it. It sounds to me like your problem is related to the high voltage supply. Dave From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 2 19:41:48 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 17:41:48 -0700 Subject: Burroughs BU4400 tape drive. What is it? In-Reply-To: <20190403110446.Horde.mf3XpMqyT6rmdj8oBwYfWBH@maria.whsl206.com> References: <4192af8b-9a97-c4a8-c537-c55032ef8cb6@fenz.net> <52ad59ad-3797-96b5-7c6d-597623495fb9@sydex.com> <20190403110446.Horde.mf3XpMqyT6rmdj8oBwYfWBH@maria.whsl206.com> Message-ID: <06f62ef9-3a80-d7e9-0041-57783d04efdb@sydex.com> On 4/2/19 3:04 PM, mike--- via cctalk wrote: > Looks like you're right! I'm pretty sure it's a cleaner. Everything on > it seems to work well, once I figured out how it was intended to work. > Just had fool the tape optical sensor (BOT/EOT?) with a piece of paper > and it started up fine. It only seems to want to go 'slow' in reverse, > but that may be something to do with the lack of tape. I like the tape > counter a lot. It shows error codes when they occur, and is a dot matrix > style LED display (perhaps not true dot matrix, just something nicer > looking than a 7-segment display). If you're going to use this thing, do check the carbide (sometimes ceramic) cleaning blade. You want the edge to be sharp and smooth; if it's nicked or chipped, it will end up doing more harm than good. I suspect that a carbide insert for machine tools might be cobbled up as a replacement, if required. --Chuck From davidkcollins2 at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 19:42:32 2019 From: davidkcollins2 at gmail.com (David Collins) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 11:42:32 +1100 Subject: Not DEC related but still hoping for some help: Problems w/ LJ 4+ Printer In-Reply-To: <813cc193-54b5-31c1-468d-b3138714dafe@mich.com> References: <008101d4e98e$22207f90$66617eb0$@net> <813cc193-54b5-31c1-468d-b3138714dafe@mich.com> Message-ID: <2B61A44A-4764-4BCA-87F1-A2B226E39DA7@gmail.com> You could well have a temp sensitive HV supply or excess moisture in it that keeps the HT low until the warmth of operation dries it out. Given the problem returns each time, a temp sensitive HV sounds likely. Not sure how quickly you could remove and replace the supply but you might trying using freeze spray on the supply when the problem occurs and see if that fixes it temporarily. David Collins +61 424 785 131 > On 3 Apr 2019, at 11:38 am, Dave Mabry via cctalk wrote: > > Ali via cctalk wrote on 4/2/2019 3:56 PM: >> I rescued a LaserJet 4+ printer that I have been trying to restore. >> Initially everything seemed ok and it seemed as if there may be just a bit >> of an issue with paper pickup which I attributed to old paper in the tray. >> >> However, soon I started getting the accordion paper jam which led me to >> replacing all the rollers including the transfer roller. Now the paper flows >> freely! However, I am having a new problem with printing. When I print, the >> first 5-10 pages initially come out blank. The printer does not produce any >> errors or error codes. The blank pages are warm (not hot though) as expected >> out of a LJ. >> >> After closer inspection it seems that the pages are printed SUPER light and >> gradually get darker the more I use the printer continuously. Eventually the >> printer starts printing continuous crisp black pages like new. This is a >> whole page phenomenon (i.e. not gaps, missing areas, etc.). >> >> A picture of the effect can be seen on VFC at: >> www.vcfed.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=52120&d=1554074105 >> >> Sorry for the poor quality picture. >> >> Things I have checked/tried: >> >> 1. Using a brand new NOS toner (according to HP toner does not go bad as >> long as it was sealed - which this was) >> 2. Swapping the new transfer roller for the old one - same problem, I have >> to print out a bunch of pages until the printer starts acting normally. >> 3. I have checked the HV and an image is being transferred to the drum on >> the toner cartridge. >> 4. A visual inspection of the fuser shows it to be ok. >> >> Obviously this is happening printing demo pages so it has nothing to do with >> computer, OS, SW, drivers, etc. Anybody run into this before? Any >> ideas/suggestions. My Google fu turned up a bunch of discussions on the >> laser door not being aligned correctly but that would seem to be a more >> permanent issue i.e. unless you fixed the door no pages should print ever. >> Mine gets better on its own after a number of pages are printed. Plus the >> door and spring are fine - I checked them just in case. >> >> I tried posting on FixYourOwnPrinter.com but for whatever reason the site >> was not accepting the question. Any other forums you guys would recommend? >> TIA! >> >> -Ali >> > > Just my little bit of input on this...the high voltage power supply is just about the only thing that there is no error code for. I had one fail and the printer didn't flag any errors. Changing the HV supply fixed it. > > It sounds to me like your problem is related to the high voltage supply. > > Dave > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Apr 2 20:13:37 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 19:13:37 -0600 Subject: Not DEC related but still hoping for some help: Problems w/ LJ 4+ Printer In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190403095701.00e16970@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <008101d4e98e$22207f90$66617eb0$@net> <3.0.6.32.20190403095701.00e16970@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <62184f0f-11a2-b377-35cf-417773f5bf12@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 4/2/19 4:57 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > One other tip that might be useful. Very commonly with old photocopiers > and laser printers the rubber pick-up and paper feed rollers lose their > 'tack' and slip on the paper. I found that briefly soaking them in > teatree oil restores the 'tack' quite well. It soaks in and seems to > have the right spread of rubber-soluble oils to keep the surface a > little tacky. > > Anyone else found other solvent/oils with similar effect? I've never considered oil / solvents. I'd worry about transference to paper. I have taken the rubber parts off and boiled them. Or at least put them in water as hot as I could get it. (You can only do so much when you put water in a blank CD spindle lid in the low wattage microwave at work.) This helps remove the accumulated acid from the paper. In doing so, the rubber becomes more tacky again. I found one boil cycle to yield good results. Two cycles slightly better. More than that and the RoI drops through the floor. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Apr 2 20:16:04 2019 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 14:16:04 +1300 Subject: The Retro Search is back up In-Reply-To: <97FE09B8-E822-48A0-8AF8-9D941FC027CE@pski.net> References: <015d01d4e8e0$3c8b56b0$b5a20410$@internode.on.net> <97FE09B8-E822-48A0-8AF8-9D941FC027CE@pski.net> Message-ID: >>On Apr 1, 2019, at 7:11 PM, Kevin Parker via cctalk wrote: >> >>This will mostly interest TRS-80 enthusiasts on this list. >> >> Check it out at theretrosearch.com >> >Thank you for this, Kevin! This is awesome Kevin! Terry From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 20:35:37 2019 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 21:35:37 -0400 Subject: Burroughs BU4400 tape drive. What is it? In-Reply-To: <06f62ef9-3a80-d7e9-0041-57783d04efdb@sydex.com> References: <4192af8b-9a97-c4a8-c537-c55032ef8cb6@fenz.net> <52ad59ad-3797-96b5-7c6d-597623495fb9@sydex.com> <20190403110446.Horde.mf3XpMqyT6rmdj8oBwYfWBH@maria.whsl206.com> <06f62ef9-3a80-d7e9-0041-57783d04efdb@sydex.com> Message-ID: Hey Tony, Here is a 10-pack of 9-track tapes for $10USD: https://www.ebay.com/itm/BASF-9-Track-Mag-Tapes-Brand-New-Case-of-10/112152910883 Shipping to NZ will probably be $100... I bought one of these boxes and could send you a single tape if you need it, but I imagine there's someone with a tape they don't need closer to you. Let me know! -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 8:41 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 4/2/19 3:04 PM, mike--- via cctalk wrote: > > > Looks like you're right! I'm pretty sure it's a cleaner. Everything on > > it seems to work well, once I figured out how it was intended to work. > > Just had fool the tape optical sensor (BOT/EOT?) with a piece of paper > > and it started up fine. It only seems to want to go 'slow' in reverse, > > but that may be something to do with the lack of tape. I like the tape > > counter a lot. It shows error codes when they occur, and is a dot matrix > > style LED display (perhaps not true dot matrix, just something nicer > > looking than a 7-segment display). > > If you're going to use this thing, do check the carbide (sometimes > ceramic) cleaning blade. You want the edge to be sharp and smooth; if > it's nicked or chipped, it will end up doing more harm than good. > > I suspect that a carbide insert for machine tools might be cobbled up as > a replacement, if required. > > --Chuck > > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Apr 2 20:36:09 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 19:36:09 -0600 Subject: Not DEC related but still hoping for some help: Problems w/ LJ 4+ Printer In-Reply-To: <009101d4e995$53d31b90$fb7952b0$@net> References: <008101d4e98e$22207f90$66617eb0$@net> <6dd90e33-856e-8f93-9ac4-8b7f080e5fa8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <009101d4e995$53d31b90$fb7952b0$@net> Message-ID: On 4/2/19 2:47 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote: > Yes, these guys were built like tanks. This one acts as a 4M now because > I added the PS module to it and it has local talk support. No duplexer > or extra paper tray though :(. It was really a 4+. I picked it up for $1 ~ $10 at a ham fest. I then maxed the memory and added PostScript, thus turning it into a 4M+. The duplexer was interesting. It interfaced with the back of the printer in place of the fold down back cover. The extra paper tray was part of the duplexer and where the paper flipped around. - I think it went under the tray instead of out the top, then came back up and feed like the normal expansion tray. > I will have to keep that in mind. This paper was old - not sure how > old but it was in the tray when I found the printer on the side of the > road. So better to recycle it then risk it I think. I'd be more worried about moisture with the paper. But, sure, recycle it and replace it. > It may be "hot enough". They are certainly warm. And I don't detect them > getting any hotter to touch as more printing goes on so this part could > all be in my head. I don't remember the 4[M][+] ever getting all that warm. The 4Si, that would get really warm. Especially if you were using the job jogger, duplexing, and printing reams at a time. > I can post it elsewhere if needed. It basically shows the picture getting > darker with subsequent printings. I created an account, got logged in, and see both pictures. I don't see any typical roller related defects. > I am not sure how to quantify it but it looks solid on the drum. I will > have to repeat the test with a "cool" printer and see if it still looks > solid or not. ACK > Never thought about it but the extra toner (I assume not all the toner > is being transferred to every page of print) must get swept up back in > to the cartridge somewhere, no? I am guessing that you have an HV issue, and the toner is not coming out of the cartridge. > Not too bad. It is worth mentioning that the printer doesn't seem abused > in its old life either. Only 65K of prints... It's a younging. > Both of which should produce an error usually... I thought so. However, Dave M. indicates that HV problems /won't/ produce an error. > I thought about bad toner but that doesn't explain the improvement with > time/prints. Or why it would go bad again after cooling down. That doesn't sound like a toner cartridge issue to me. > I would say 5 - 10 minutes. Once I get good quality prints the subsequent > pages all look great... That tells me that it's not something mechanical. I say that because it would be all the time. (I guess a cold solder joint could be mechanical. But I think that would present differently.) > Thanks that was quick! I am pulling out the HV portion now to take a > look. If I understand correct the DC (LV) supplies everything else except > the engine. Those all seem to be working fine. Cleaning contacts is easy > (and cheap) so that will be my first fix unless I see something glaringly > obvious with the caps on the HV. Yep. He's retired. > Thank you. You're welcome. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Apr 2 20:39:27 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 19:39:27 -0600 Subject: Not DEC related but still hoping for some help: Problems w/ LJ 4+ Printer In-Reply-To: <009d01d4e9a2$4cc17e70$e6447b50$@net> References: <008101d4e98e$22207f90$66617eb0$@net> <6dd90e33-856e-8f93-9ac4-8b7f080e5fa8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <009d01d4e9a2$4cc17e70$e6447b50$@net> Message-ID: <969ab7c7-8fc5-3aca-46f9-a9537a324242@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 4/2/19 4:20 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote: > So I took out the HV board and it was super > dirty (I added pictures on the thread in VCF at > www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?69109-Help-with-LJ-4-Printer-Repair-Please&p=564565 > ). I saw. > Nothing that should really prevent electrical flow but I cleaned it out > anyhow. Re-installed and the issue remained. ACK > While the printer was cold I ran another HV test and interestingly the > toner drum had a very faint picture on the drum. So it looks like the > toner is not being deposited on the drum appropriately until something > "warms up". My gut tells me that there's something going on with the HV section and not actually pulling toner like it needs to. Given your comment below about the caps, I'm wondering if they are taking longer to charge up and the additional pages allow for them to charge to a sufficient level. > The question now is, is this a toner problem (since I believe the corona > wire is in the cartridge) or a HV problem. Since I am not getting error > codes I am guessing the cartridge is bad for one reason or another.... How > likely is that in your experience vs. the HV board going bad and just > not erroring out? Two of the caps look like they may have leaked on the > HV board (see the stains on the PCB in the before picture?). However, > I don't see any bulging capacitors or anything blown. Thanks. It sounds like the caps have not (yet) completely failed. I'd bet $10 on the HV supply being your problem. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Apr 2 20:48:14 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2019 20:48:14 -0500 Subject: Not DEC related but still hoping for some help: Problems w/ LJ 4+ Printer In-Reply-To: <008101d4e98e$22207f90$66617eb0$@net> References: <008101d4e98e$22207f90$66617eb0$@net> Message-ID: <5CA410DE.4030202@pico-systems.com> On 04/02/2019 02:56 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote: > I rescued a LaserJet 4+ printer that I have been trying to restore. > Initially everything seemed ok and it seemed as if there may be just a bit > of an issue with paper pickup which I attributed to old paper in the tray. > > However, soon I started getting the accordion paper jam which led me to > replacing all the rollers including the transfer roller. Now the paper flows > freely! However, I am having a new problem with printing. When I print, the > first 5-10 pages initially come out blank. The printer does not produce any > errors or error codes. The blank pages are warm (not hot though) as expected > out of a LJ. > > After closer inspection it seems that the pages are printed SUPER light and > gradually get darker the more I use the printer continuously. Eventually the > printer starts printing continuous crisp black pages like new. This is a > whole page phenomenon (i.e. not gaps, missing areas, etc.). > > Is the fuser roller warming up properly? Or, is it the corona supply is having trouble coming up to voltage? You should pull the bottom of the printer apart and thoroughly clean the PC board on both sides. If you have never done this, it will be a HUGE BLACK MESS with spilled toner dust - don't ask how I know this! I have a 5M, but I think the mechanism is the same. Jon From mike at fenz.net Tue Apr 2 21:02:21 2019 From: mike at fenz.net (mike at fenz.net) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2019 15:02:21 +1300 Subject: Burroughs BU4400 tape drive. What is it? In-Reply-To: <06f62ef9-3a80-d7e9-0041-57783d04efdb@sydex.com> References: <4192af8b-9a97-c4a8-c537-c55032ef8cb6@fenz.net> <52ad59ad-3797-96b5-7c6d-597623495fb9@sydex.com> <20190403110446.Horde.mf3XpMqyT6rmdj8oBwYfWBH@maria.whsl206.com> <06f62ef9-3a80-d7e9-0041-57783d04efdb@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20190403150221.Horde.stPhSc2A7gFtRVGkUEKPwC1@maria.whsl206.com> Quoting Chuck Guzis via cctalk : > If you're going to use this thing, do check the carbide (sometimes > ceramic) cleaning blade. You want the edge to be sharp and smooth; if > it's nicked or chipped, it will end up doing more harm than good. In this case, it's really just for show - I don't have a real 9-track drive, or any tapes. That was why I'd prefer an unusable tape, rather than destroying a good tape by passing it through a cleaner repeatedly. However, tapes do seem really quite cheap and easy to find. > I suspect that a carbide insert for machine tools might be cobbled up as > a replacement, if required. I suspect the blade is actually missing. There's am empty spot that looks like it might have taken a cartridge at once point in the tape path. Maybe nothing actually goes there, but on the tape path diagram, it seems to show something with a narrow gap the tape passes through. If I wanted to make it functional, I could fairly easily make a cartridge that fits in the spot as above, and passes the tape across a blade of that sort without a great deal of pressure. I would really like a working drive sometime, so I am actually considering doing this... Cheers, Mike From mike at fenz.net Tue Apr 2 21:23:48 2019 From: mike at fenz.net (mike at fenz.net) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2019 15:23:48 +1300 Subject: Burroughs BU4400 tape drive. What is it? In-Reply-To: References: <4192af8b-9a97-c4a8-c537-c55032ef8cb6@fenz.net> <52ad59ad-3797-96b5-7c6d-597623495fb9@sydex.com> <20190403110446.Horde.mf3XpMqyT6rmdj8oBwYfWBH@maria.whsl206.com> <06f62ef9-3a80-d7e9-0041-57783d04efdb@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20190403152348.Horde.vsw2dT8mG0Gka0TtBXDz0L7@maria.whsl206.com> Quoting Anders Nelson via cctalk : > Here is a 10-pack of 9-track tapes for $10USD: > https://www.ebay.com/itm/BASF-9-Track-Mag-Tapes-Brand-New-Case-of-10/112152910883 > Shipping to NZ will probably be $100... I bought one of these boxes and > could send you a single tape if you need it, but I imagine there's someone > with a tape they don't need closer to you. The shipping guess was damn close - $97.94 (approx. NZD143.54), plus US$10 for the actual tapes. It actually sounds like quite a good deal, for brand new tapes. Thanks for the offer of the tape, if I get stuck I'll drop you a note. Cheers, Mike From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 2 21:51:10 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 19:51:10 -0700 Subject: Burroughs BU4400 tape drive. What is it? In-Reply-To: <20190403152348.Horde.vsw2dT8mG0Gka0TtBXDz0L7@maria.whsl206.com> References: <4192af8b-9a97-c4a8-c537-c55032ef8cb6@fenz.net> <52ad59ad-3797-96b5-7c6d-597623495fb9@sydex.com> <20190403110446.Horde.mf3XpMqyT6rmdj8oBwYfWBH@maria.whsl206.com> <06f62ef9-3a80-d7e9-0041-57783d04efdb@sydex.com> <20190403152348.Horde.vsw2dT8mG0Gka0TtBXDz0L7@maria.whsl206.com> Message-ID: <53ca218b-f5a2-cdf6-8500-a78237a79ad9@sydex.com> On 4/2/19 7:23 PM, mike--- via cctalk wrote: > The shipping guess was damn close - $97.94 (approx. NZD143.54), plus > US$10 for the actual tapes. It actually sounds like quite a good deal, > for brand new tapes. Thanks for the offer of the tape, if I get stuck > I'll drop you a note. It's $60 shipping inside the US, so $100 shipping sounds like a bargain. However, if you'd like a full-szied 10.5" reel, these aren't that. Look like 600' reels, rather than the full-length 2400' ones. --Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Apr 2 22:21:16 2019 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 20:21:16 -0700 Subject: 2.11 BSD on an 11/93 with an CMD SCSI Module In-Reply-To: References: <52057c1e-a4d1-ba80-52c8-35099f941988@bitsavers.org> <20190326235436.7BBE0179BF0@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 5:09 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > > Try deleting everything on the device entry lines after "cnxint" > > > > (For reference, "cnrint" and "cnxint" are the names of the interrupt > > handler routines in src/sys/pdp/cons.c Those names have to match to > > be able to link up the pointers to the interrupt handlers). > > > > Let's make it simple. Here's that section of my dtab file: > > # If you have DL11s, you must give each line an explicit unit number instead > # of using a '?' as above. If you use a '?', autoconfig(8) will start > # assigning unit numbers starting at 0 which will effectively move your > # console to that first line. Start your unit numbers with '1'. > # > # cn 1 176500 300 5 cnrint cnxint # kl/dl-11 (on mvx11-aa) > cn 1 176500 300 5 cnrint cnxint > cn 2 176510 310 5 cnrint cnxint > cn 3 176520 320 5 cnrint cnxint > cn 4 176530 330 5 cnrint cnxint > cn 5 176540 340 5 cnrint cnxint > cn 6 176550 350 5 cnrint cnxint > cn 7 176560 360 5 cnrint cnxint Hmm, I spent some time experimenting with this on a SIMH PDP-11 and it appears that the device entry lines in /etc/dtab cannot end exactly at the last character of an interrupt handler name. At least one isspace() character is required before the newline character at the end of the line. I would consider that a bug in the read_dtab() routine in src/sys/autoconfig/read_dtab.c These are the device entry lines I ended up adding to /etc/dtab to ensure that there is at least one isspace() character before the newline character at the end of the line. The '#' comment character isn't necessary, just makes it obvious that there is at least one isspace() character after the last interrupt handler name. cn 1 176500 300 5 cnrint cnxint # cn 2 176510 310 5 cnrint cnxint # cn 3 176520 320 5 cnrint cnxint # cn 4 176530 330 5 cnrint cnxint # cn 5 176540 340 5 cnrint cnxint # cn 6 176550 350 5 cnrint cnxint # cn 7 176560 360 5 cnrint cnxint # After changing the NKL definition in the kernel configuration file and rebuilding and installing a new kernel with that change I now get this when booting the system: November 1 10:44:01 init: configure system ra 0 csr 172150 vector 154 vectorset attached rl 0 csr 174400 vector 160 attached rx 0 csr 177170 vector 264 attached tms 0 csr 174500 vector 260 vectorset attached cn 1 csr 176500 vector 300 attached cn 2 csr 176510 vector 310 attached cn 3 csr 176520 vector 320 attached cn 4 csr 176530 vector 330 attached cn 5 csr 176540 vector 340 attached cn 6 csr 176550 vector 350 attached cn 7 csr 176560 vector 360 attached erase, kill ^U, intr ^C To create the device nodes for the additional DL lines in /dev I then did the following: # cd /dev # rm ttyl* # ./MAKEDEV dl1 dl2 dl3 dl4 dl5 dl6 dl7 # ls -l ttyl* crw------- 1 root 0, 1 Nov 1 10:59 ttyl1 crw------- 1 root 0, 2 Nov 1 10:59 ttyl2 crw------- 1 root 0, 3 Nov 1 10:59 ttyl3 crw------- 1 root 0, 4 Nov 1 10:59 ttyl4 crw------- 1 root 0, 5 Nov 1 10:59 ttyl5 crw------- 1 root 0, 6 Nov 1 10:59 ttyl6 crw------- 1 root 0, 7 Nov 1 10:59 ttyl7 Then to enable getty to run on those addition DL lines I added entries for those device in /etc/ttys. There was already an entry for ttyl1 in /etc/ttys, but I had to change the 'off' to 'on' for that entry: /etc/ttys new entries: ttyl1 "/usr/libexec/getty std.9600" vt100 on secure ttyl2 "/usr/libexec/getty std.9600" vt100 on secure ttyl3 "/usr/libexec/getty std.9600" vt100 on secure ttyl4 "/usr/libexec/getty std.9600" vt100 on secure ttyl5 "/usr/libexec/getty std.9600" vt100 on secure ttyl6 "/usr/libexec/getty std.9600" vt100 on secure ttyl7 "/usr/libexec/getty std.9600" vt100 on secure After making all of those changes and restarting the system I got login prompts on the additional DL lines after exiting single user mode. In summary the only changes I had to make from the generic 2.11BSD installation were: (1) Change the NKL definition in the kernel configuration file and rebuild and install a new kernel with that change (2) Add new 'cn' device entries for the additional DL lines in /etc/dtab (3) ./MAKEDEV dl1 ... dl7 in /dev for the additional DL lines (3) Add additional ttyl1 ... ttyl7 entries for the additional DL lines in /etc/ttys From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Wed Apr 3 03:24:37 2019 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 01:24:37 -0700 Subject: Not DEC related but still hoping for some help: Problems w/ LJ 4+ Printer In-Reply-To: <813cc193-54b5-31c1-468d-b3138714dafe@mich.com> References: <008101d4e98e$22207f90$66617eb0$@net> <813cc193-54b5-31c1-468d-b3138714dafe@mich.com> Message-ID: <00db01d4e9f6$b0b92fa0$122b8ee0$@net> > Just my little bit of input on this...the high voltage power supply is > just about the only thing that there is no error code for. I had one > fail and the printer didn't flag any errors. Changing the HV supply > fixed it. > > It sounds to me like your problem is related to the high voltage > supply. > > Dave Hi Dave, Thanks for that tidbit. I didn't realize that a HV failure would not produce any error codes. If that is the case looks like I am recapping a board. Out of curiosity what symptoms were you getting? Thanks. -Ali From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Wed Apr 3 03:24:37 2019 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 01:24:37 -0700 Subject: Not DEC related but still hoping for some help: Problems w/ LJ 4+ Printer In-Reply-To: <5CA410DE.4030202@pico-systems.com> References: <008101d4e98e$22207f90$66617eb0$@net> <5CA410DE.4030202@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <00d901d4e9f6$aef44e20$0cdcea60$@net> > Is the fuser roller warming up properly? Or, is it the > corona supply is having trouble coming up to voltage? You > should pull the bottom of the printer apart and thoroughly > clean the PC board on both sides. If you have never done > this, it will be a HUGE BLACK MESS with spilled toner dust - > don't ask how I know this! Jon, Based on the info coming through on the list a "cold" fuser would produce toner that would wipe off/flake off of the printed sheet. This is not happening in my case so I am guessing the fuser is getting hot "enough". The current hive thinking seems to be toward the corona wire - specifically failing caps in HV needing time to warm up to specs before working properly. -Ali From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Wed Apr 3 03:26:22 2019 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 01:26:22 -0700 Subject: Not DEC related but still hoping for some help: Problems w/ LJ 4+ Printer In-Reply-To: <969ab7c7-8fc5-3aca-46f9-a9537a324242@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <008101d4e98e$22207f90$66617eb0$@net> <6dd90e33-856e-8f93-9ac4-8b7f080e5fa8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <009d01d4e9a2$4cc17e70$e6447b50$@net> <969ab7c7-8fc5-3aca-46f9-a9537a324242@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <00dc01d4e9f6$eca91e80$c5fb5b80$@net> > It sounds like the caps have not (yet) completely failed. > > I'd bet $10 on the HV supply being your problem. Grant, I think that would be a good bet. I am going to order parts and recap the board... See where that gets us. Thanks for all of your help. -Ali From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Apr 3 10:41:35 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2019 10:41:35 -0500 Subject: Not DEC related but still hoping for some help: Problems w/ LJ 4+ Printer In-Reply-To: <00db01d4e9f6$b0b92fa0$122b8ee0$@net> References: <008101d4e98e$22207f90$66617eb0$@net> <813cc193-54b5-31c1-468d-b3138714dafe@mich.com> <00db01d4e9f6$b0b92fa0$122b8ee0$@net> Message-ID: <5CA4D42F.9080508@pico-systems.com> On 04/03/2019 03:24 AM, Ali via cctalk wrote: > Thanks for that tidbit. I didn't realize that a HV failure > would not produce any error codes. If that is the case > looks like I am recapping a board. Out of curiosity what > symptoms were you getting? Nope, I think there is some sort of self-check on the fuser thermistors, but the corona supply is open-loop on most printers. There is also a self-check on the laser, as the beam has to hit a sensor to start the timing of the pixels. So a failed laser or polygon motor will cause an error. Good luck with it! Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Apr 3 10:44:59 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2019 10:44:59 -0500 Subject: Not DEC related but still hoping for some help: Problems w/ LJ 4+ Printer In-Reply-To: <00d901d4e9f6$aef44e20$0cdcea60$@net> References: <008101d4e98e$22207f90$66617eb0$@net> <5CA410DE.4030202@pico-systems.com> <00d901d4e9f6$aef44e20$0cdcea60$@net> Message-ID: <5CA4D4FB.3030201@pico-systems.com> On 04/03/2019 03:24 AM, Ali via cctalk wrote: >> Is the fuser roller warming up properly? Or, is it the >> corona supply is having trouble coming up to voltage? You >> should pull the bottom of the printer apart and thoroughly >> clean the PC board on both sides. If you have never done >> this, it will be a HUGE BLACK MESS with spilled toner dust - >> don't ask how I know this! > > Jon, > > Based on the info coming through on the list a "cold" fuser would produce > toner that would wipe off/flake off of the printed sheet. This is not > happening in my case so I am guessing the fuser is getting hot "enough". OK, sounds right. > The > current hive thinking seems to be toward the corona wire - specifically > failing caps in HV needing time to warm up to specs before working properly. > > First, since you have not checked with another cartridge, is to examine the corona wires and/or "combs" on the cart. Sometimes the wires break at one end. Also, toner spills could short it out, I've had that before. Bent contacts on the cart where it connects the HV to the printer could also be making bad/no contact. But, the caps could be it, the symptom where it starts working after warming up does indicate weak caps. Jon From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Wed Apr 3 10:53:59 2019 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 11:53:59 -0400 Subject: Tektronix Keyboard Message-ID: <3c456b01-ff4d-0a79-a3db-b079185784cc@comcast.net> This I didn't know. I bought a Tektronix 4207 color graphics terminal without a keyboard recently.? Finding the correct keyboard part number seemed to be a process with great uncertainty, the VintageTEK folks said the correct one was a 2468.? One of these was for sale on ebay for $300 - no way was I paying that much! So I tried one that looked like the keyboard in the TEK catalog of that period, but with a different part number. The connector looked like the right one though.? I got one off ebay, and I thought it was kind of expensive, but it did work with the 4207 terminal. What I didn't understand was a fascination with the black mechanical Cherry switches the keyboard used.? These turn out to be extremely popular with the 'gaming' community.? I don't know if the tektronix keyboard can be used with a modern PC, I haven't looked at the interface signals yet.? The modern PS/2 keyboard has a clock and data line, the DEC LK201 used rs232, so what Tektronix used is anybody's guess. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Apr 3 11:32:21 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 16:32:21 +0000 Subject: 2.11 BSD on an 11/93 with an CMD SCSI Module In-Reply-To: References: <20190326235436.7BBE0179BF0@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On 4/2/19 11:21 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 5:09 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: >> >>> Try deleting everything on the device entry lines after "cnxint" >>> >>> (For reference, "cnrint" and "cnxint" are the names of the interrupt >>> handler routines in src/sys/pdp/cons.c Those names have to match to >>> be able to link up the pointers to the interrupt handlers). >>> >> >> Let's make it simple. Here's that section of my dtab file: >> >> # If you have DL11s, you must give each line an explicit unit number instead >> # of using a '?' as above. If you use a '?', autoconfig(8) will start >> # assigning unit numbers starting at 0 which will effectively move your >> # console to that first line. Start your unit numbers with '1'. >> # >> # cn 1 176500 300 5 cnrint cnxint # kl/dl-11 (on mvx11-aa) >> cn 1 176500 300 5 cnrint cnxint >> cn 2 176510 310 5 cnrint cnxint >> cn 3 176520 320 5 cnrint cnxint >> cn 4 176530 330 5 cnrint cnxint >> cn 5 176540 340 5 cnrint cnxint >> cn 6 176550 350 5 cnrint cnxint >> cn 7 176560 360 5 cnrint cnxint > > Hmm, I spent some time experimenting with this on a SIMH PDP-11 and it > appears that the device entry lines in /etc/dtab cannot end exactly at > the last character of an interrupt handler name. At least one > isspace() character is required before the newline character at the > end of the line. I would consider that a bug in the read_dtab() > routine in src/sys/autoconfig/read_dtab.c > > These are the device entry lines I ended up adding to /etc/dtab to > ensure that there is at least one isspace() character before the > newline character at the end of the line. The '#' comment character > isn't necessary, just makes it obvious that there is at least one > isspace() character after the last interrupt handler name. > > cn 1 176500 300 5 cnrint cnxint # > cn 2 176510 310 5 cnrint cnxint # > cn 3 176520 320 5 cnrint cnxint # > cn 4 176530 330 5 cnrint cnxint # > cn 5 176540 340 5 cnrint cnxint # > cn 6 176550 350 5 cnrint cnxint # > cn 7 176560 360 5 cnrint cnxint # > > After changing the NKL definition in the kernel configuration file and > rebuilding and installing a new kernel with that change I now get this > when booting the system: > > November 1 10:44:01 init: configure system > > ra 0 csr 172150 vector 154 vectorset attached > rl 0 csr 174400 vector 160 attached > rx 0 csr 177170 vector 264 attached > tms 0 csr 174500 vector 260 vectorset attached > cn 1 csr 176500 vector 300 attached > cn 2 csr 176510 vector 310 attached > cn 3 csr 176520 vector 320 attached > cn 4 csr 176530 vector 330 attached > cn 5 csr 176540 vector 340 attached > cn 6 csr 176550 vector 350 attached > cn 7 csr 176560 vector 360 attached > erase, kill ^U, intr ^C > > To create the device nodes for the additional DL lines in /dev I then > did the following: > > # cd /dev > # rm ttyl* > # ./MAKEDEV dl1 dl2 dl3 dl4 dl5 dl6 dl7 > # ls -l ttyl* > crw------- 1 root 0, 1 Nov 1 10:59 ttyl1 > crw------- 1 root 0, 2 Nov 1 10:59 ttyl2 > crw------- 1 root 0, 3 Nov 1 10:59 ttyl3 > crw------- 1 root 0, 4 Nov 1 10:59 ttyl4 > crw------- 1 root 0, 5 Nov 1 10:59 ttyl5 > crw------- 1 root 0, 6 Nov 1 10:59 ttyl6 > crw------- 1 root 0, 7 Nov 1 10:59 ttyl7 > > Then to enable getty to run on those addition DL lines I added entries > for those device in /etc/ttys. There was already an entry for ttyl1 in > /etc/ttys, but I had to change the 'off' to 'on' for that entry: > > /etc/ttys new entries: > ttyl1 "/usr/libexec/getty std.9600" vt100 on secure > ttyl2 "/usr/libexec/getty std.9600" vt100 on secure > ttyl3 "/usr/libexec/getty std.9600" vt100 on secure > ttyl4 "/usr/libexec/getty std.9600" vt100 on secure > ttyl5 "/usr/libexec/getty std.9600" vt100 on secure > ttyl6 "/usr/libexec/getty std.9600" vt100 on secure > ttyl7 "/usr/libexec/getty std.9600" vt100 on secure > > After making all of those changes and restarting the system I got > login prompts on the additional DL lines after exiting single user > mode. > > In summary the only changes I had to make from the generic 2.11BSD > installation were: > (1) Change the NKL definition in the kernel configuration file and > rebuild and install a new kernel with that change > (2) Add new 'cn' device entries for the additional DL lines in /etc/dtab > (3) ./MAKEDEV dl1 ... dl7 in /dev for the additional DL lines > (3) Add additional ttyl1 ... ttyl7 entries for the additional DL lines > in /etc/ttys > The baby steps continue. I made the changes recommended above adding a space and a "#" to the end of each line. autoconfig now recognizes them and getty doesn't complain.. No logi prompt but that could be a cable problem as the only DEC serial cable I had handy was labeled "Printer" and might not work. I will dig up some of my MMJ DB9 and DB25 connectors and make a real serial cable to see if it now works. Networking works fine. I have been able to access the INTERNET and login from a remote system. This will make it much easier to move things over to the PDP-11. Probably make a dump of the system and start applying patches. Warren, when I get it done I will be glad to provide you with a dump of the root and usr partitions. I may be able to do SIMH disk images as well, but I have been working mostly with E11. But I do SIMH as well sometimes. I want to take this time to thank everyone who helped me get this far. It is fun to work with a real box again. Next step will be to use this one to make the necessary pieces for Ultrix-11. Eventually I would like to create a complete VTServer install for Ultrix-11 as I expect more and more people with real 11's are running without real tape drives. bill From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 3 11:43:12 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 09:43:12 -0700 Subject: Tektronix Keyboard In-Reply-To: <3c456b01-ff4d-0a79-a3db-b079185784cc@comcast.net> References: <3c456b01-ff4d-0a79-a3db-b079185784cc@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 4/3/19 8:53 AM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > What I didn't understand was a fascination with the black mechanical Cherry switches the keyboard used.? These turn out > to be extremely popular with the 'gaming' community. This 'community' is referred to here as "keyboard collecting scum" From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Apr 3 12:56:12 2019 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 19:56:12 +0200 Subject: 2.11 BSD on an 11/93 with an CMD SCSI Module In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20190403175612.GA85897@beast.freibergnet.de> Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 4/2/19 11:21 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 5:09 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > > wrote: > >> > >>> Try deleting everything on the device entry lines after "cnxint" > >>> > >>> (For reference, "cnrint" and "cnxint" are the names of the interrupt > >>> handler routines in src/sys/pdp/cons.c Those names have to match to > >>> be able to link up the pointers to the interrupt handlers). > >>> > >> > >> Let's make it simple. Here's that section of my dtab file: > >> > >> # If you have DL11s, you must give each line an explicit unit number instead > >> # of using a '?' as above. If you use a '?', autoconfig(8) will start > >> # assigning unit numbers starting at 0 which will effectively move your > >> # console to that first line. Start your unit numbers with '1'. > >> # > >> # cn 1 176500 300 5 cnrint cnxint # kl/dl-11 (on mvx11-aa) > >> cn 1 176500 300 5 cnrint cnxint > >> cn 2 176510 310 5 cnrint cnxint > >> cn 3 176520 320 5 cnrint cnxint > >> cn 4 176530 330 5 cnrint cnxint > >> cn 5 176540 340 5 cnrint cnxint > >> cn 6 176550 350 5 cnrint cnxint > >> cn 7 176560 360 5 cnrint cnxint > > > > Hmm, I spent some time experimenting with this on a SIMH PDP-11 and it > > appears that the device entry lines in /etc/dtab cannot end exactly at > > the last character of an interrupt handler name. At least one > > isspace() character is required before the newline character at the > > end of the line. I would consider that a bug in the read_dtab() > > routine in src/sys/autoconfig/read_dtab.c > > > > These are the device entry lines I ended up adding to /etc/dtab to > > ensure that there is at least one isspace() character before the > > newline character at the end of the line. The '#' comment character > > isn't necessary, just makes it obvious that there is at least one > > isspace() character after the last interrupt handler name. > > > > cn 1 176500 300 5 cnrint cnxint # > > cn 2 176510 310 5 cnrint cnxint # > > cn 3 176520 320 5 cnrint cnxint # > > cn 4 176530 330 5 cnrint cnxint # > > cn 5 176540 340 5 cnrint cnxint # > > cn 6 176550 350 5 cnrint cnxint # > > cn 7 176560 360 5 cnrint cnxint # > > > > After changing the NKL definition in the kernel configuration file and > > rebuilding and installing a new kernel with that change I now get this > > when booting the system: > > > > November 1 10:44:01 init: configure system > > > > ra 0 csr 172150 vector 154 vectorset attached > > rl 0 csr 174400 vector 160 attached > > rx 0 csr 177170 vector 264 attached > > tms 0 csr 174500 vector 260 vectorset attached > > cn 1 csr 176500 vector 300 attached > > cn 2 csr 176510 vector 310 attached > > cn 3 csr 176520 vector 320 attached > > cn 4 csr 176530 vector 330 attached > > cn 5 csr 176540 vector 340 attached > > cn 6 csr 176550 vector 350 attached > > cn 7 csr 176560 vector 360 attached > > erase, kill ^U, intr ^C > > > > To create the device nodes for the additional DL lines in /dev I then > > did the following: > > > > # cd /dev > > # rm ttyl* > > # ./MAKEDEV dl1 dl2 dl3 dl4 dl5 dl6 dl7 > > # ls -l ttyl* > > crw------- 1 root 0, 1 Nov 1 10:59 ttyl1 > > crw------- 1 root 0, 2 Nov 1 10:59 ttyl2 > > crw------- 1 root 0, 3 Nov 1 10:59 ttyl3 > > crw------- 1 root 0, 4 Nov 1 10:59 ttyl4 > > crw------- 1 root 0, 5 Nov 1 10:59 ttyl5 > > crw------- 1 root 0, 6 Nov 1 10:59 ttyl6 > > crw------- 1 root 0, 7 Nov 1 10:59 ttyl7 > > > > Then to enable getty to run on those addition DL lines I added entries > > for those device in /etc/ttys. There was already an entry for ttyl1 in > > /etc/ttys, but I had to change the 'off' to 'on' for that entry: > > > > /etc/ttys new entries: > > ttyl1 "/usr/libexec/getty std.9600" vt100 on secure > > ttyl2 "/usr/libexec/getty std.9600" vt100 on secure > > ttyl3 "/usr/libexec/getty std.9600" vt100 on secure > > ttyl4 "/usr/libexec/getty std.9600" vt100 on secure > > ttyl5 "/usr/libexec/getty std.9600" vt100 on secure > > ttyl6 "/usr/libexec/getty std.9600" vt100 on secure > > ttyl7 "/usr/libexec/getty std.9600" vt100 on secure > > > > After making all of those changes and restarting the system I got > > login prompts on the additional DL lines after exiting single user > > mode. > > > > In summary the only changes I had to make from the generic 2.11BSD > > installation were: > > (1) Change the NKL definition in the kernel configuration file and > > rebuild and install a new kernel with that change > > (2) Add new 'cn' device entries for the additional DL lines in /etc/dtab > > (3) ./MAKEDEV dl1 ... dl7 in /dev for the additional DL lines > > (3) Add additional ttyl1 ... ttyl7 entries for the additional DL lines > > in /etc/ttys > > > > The baby steps continue. > > I made the changes recommended above adding a space and a "#" > to the end of each line. autoconfig now recognizes them and > getty doesn't complain.. No logi prompt but that could be a > cable problem as the only DEC serial cable I had handy was > labeled "Printer" and might not work. I will dig up some of > my MMJ DB9 and DB25 connectors and make a real serial cable > to see if it now works. > > Networking works fine. I have been able to access the INTERNET > and login from a remote system. This will make it much easier > to move things over to the PDP-11. Probably make a dump of > the system and start applying patches. > > Warren, when I get it done I will be glad to provide you with > a dump of the root and usr partitions. I may be able to do > SIMH disk images as well, but I have been working mostly with > E11. But I do SIMH as well sometimes. > > I want to take this time to thank everyone who helped me get > this far. It is fun to work with a real box again. Next > step will be to use this one to make the necessary pieces > for Ultrix-11. Eventually I would like to create a complete > VTServer install for Ultrix-11 as I expect more and more > people with real 11's are running without real tape drives. > > bill > I have an 11/83 running rt11,rsx11,xxdp and 2.11 bsd (patched) under my desk for years, but it gets seldom powered on...last boot was in January.. I think I put an CMD220 or CDM240 in it, and I have SCSI disks and an additional 8GB quarter Inch Tape Drive from Tandberg (SLR5) mounted, works fine.. I think I have an DHV11 in it, had to boot first to kow it exactly. Network is also working. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From web at loomcom.com Wed Apr 3 12:57:29 2019 From: web at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2019 10:57:29 -0700 Subject: Tektronix Keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <3c456b01-ff4d-0a79-a3db-b079185784cc@comcast.net> Message-ID: <734E860B-E89D-4E64-96F6-0603C6CA1E9D@loomcom.com> On 3 Apr 2019, at 9:43, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 4/3/19 8:53 AM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > >> What I didn't understand was a fascination with the black mechanical >> Cherry switches the keyboard used.? These turn out >> to be extremely popular with the 'gaming' community. > > This 'community' is referred to here as "keyboard collecting scum" Social Networking has infected my mind so much that there are times I wish I could ?favorite? or ?like? a mailing list posting. This is one of those times. -Seth -- Seth Morabito web at loomcom.com Poulsbo, WA, USA From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Apr 3 13:46:20 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 14:46:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 2.11 BSD on an 11/93 with an CMD SCSI Module Message-ID: <20190403184620.8BC3A18C103@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Bill Gunshannon > when I get it done I will be glad to provide you with a dump of the > root and usr partitions. I may be able to do SIMH disk images as well, > but I have been working mostly with E11. E11 disk images in files aren't anything odd, just a straight bit-bit copy of what would be in the parititon. (When I transfer RK05 partitions on E11 to SD cards for use in the QSIC, I just 'dd' the file holding the partition to the appropriate blocks on the SD card, and it comes out fine.) Dunno about SIMH disk imaages (I know the tapes images are tweaked). Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 13:51:41 2019 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 14:51:41 -0400 Subject: Yes there is a PDP 10 front panel and Kenbak on Ebay Message-ID: Yes there is a PDP 10 front panel and Kenbak on Ebay and no, a "best offer" of $250 for the front panel will not be accepted. :-) Bill From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 14:37:50 2019 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 15:37:50 -0400 Subject: Yes there is a PDP 10 front panel and Kenbak on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My god people, stop bidding! There are 6 days left. -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 2:51 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Yes there is a PDP 10 front panel and Kenbak on Ebay > > and no, a "best offer" of $250 for the front panel will not be accepted. > :-) > > Bill > From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 14:39:47 2019 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 15:39:47 -0400 Subject: Yes there is a PDP 10 front panel and Kenbak on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I mean that semi-sarcastically as this list probably knows better already. =] -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 3:37 PM Anders Nelson wrote: > My god people, stop bidding! There are 6 days left. > -- > Anders Nelson > > +1 (517) 775-6129 > > www.erogear.com > > > On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 2:51 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Yes there is a PDP 10 front panel and Kenbak on Ebay >> >> and no, a "best offer" of $250 for the front panel will not be accepted. >> :-) >> >> Bill >> > From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 14:54:21 2019 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 12:54:21 -0700 Subject: 2.11 BSD on an 11/93 with an CMD SCSI Module In-Reply-To: <20190403184620.8BC3A18C103@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190403184620.8BC3A18C103@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 11:46 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > E11 disk images in files aren't anything odd, just a straight bit-bit copy of > what would be in the parititon. (When I transfer RK05 partitions on E11 to SD > cards for use in the QSIC, I just 'dd' the file holding the partition to the > appropriate blocks on the SD card, and it comes out fine.) > > Dunno about SIMH disk imaages (I know the tapes images are tweaked). I have used SIMH to create MSCP bootable XXDP 2.5 disk images from the RL02 XXDP 2.5 image on the net: http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp11/discimages/rl02/xxdp25.rl02.gz I have then been able to burn those disk images straight to a CD-ROM and have been able to boot those on a PDP-11 from a SCSI CD-ROM drive attached to CMD CQD SCSI controllers (with the CD-ROM drive in 512-byte block mode). So the SIMH disk image is just a straight block for block image. From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Apr 3 14:58:08 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 19:58:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Yes there is a PDP 10 front panel and Kenbak on Ebay References: <1813736077.16068425.1554321488772.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1813736077.16068425.1554321488772@mail.yahoo.com> any? relation? to? marlys nelson? at? river falls? Ed#In a message dated 4/3/2019 12:40:06 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: I mean that semi-sarcastically as this list probably knows better already. =] -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 3:37 PM Anders Nelson wrote: > My god people, stop bidding! There are 6 days left. > -- > Anders Nelson > > +1 (517) 775-6129 > > www.erogear.com > > > On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 2:51 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Yes there is a PDP 10 front panel and? Kenbak on Ebay >> >> and no, a "best offer" of $250 for the front panel will not be accepted. >> :-) >> >> Bill >> > From ethan at 757.org Wed Apr 3 15:01:33 2019 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 16:01:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Yes there is a PDP 10 front panel and Kenbak on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > My god people, stop bidding! There are 6 days left. You should only ever bid once. The last bid. -- : Ethan O'Toole From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 3 15:01:36 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 13:01:36 -0700 Subject: Yes there is a PDP 10 front panel and Kenbak on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <27bbcfae-ed47-4b6e-ed82-e3f6859b057f@bitsavers.org> On 4/3/19 11:51 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > and no, a "best offer" of $250 for the front panel will not be accepted. because it's $125 lower than the last one that sold. https://www.ebay.com/itm/113190860596 From kylevowen at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 15:27:29 2019 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 15:27:29 -0500 Subject: Yes there is a PDP 10 front panel and Kenbak on Ebay In-Reply-To: <27bbcfae-ed47-4b6e-ed82-e3f6859b057f@bitsavers.org> References: <27bbcfae-ed47-4b6e-ed82-e3f6859b057f@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 3, 2019, 15:01 Al Kossow via cctalk > > On 4/3/19 11:51 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > > and no, a "best offer" of $250 for the front panel will not be accepted. > > because it's $125 lower than the last one that sold. > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/113190860596 That seems...remarkably cheap. From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 15:37:43 2019 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 16:37:43 -0400 Subject: Yes there is a PDP 10 front panel and Kenbak on Ebay In-Reply-To: <1813736077.16068425.1554321488772@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1813736077.16068425.1554321488772.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1813736077.16068425.1554321488772@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Nope! On Wed, Apr 3, 2019, 3:58 PM ED SHARPE via cctalk > any relation to marlys nelson at river falls? > Ed#In a message dated 4/3/2019 12:40:06 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > I mean that semi-sarcastically as this list probably knows better already. > > =] > -- > Anders Nelson > > +1 (517) 775-6129 > > www.erogear.com > > > On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 3:37 PM Anders Nelson > wrote: > > > My god people, stop bidding! There are 6 days left. > > -- > > Anders Nelson > > > > +1 (517) 775-6129 > > > > www.erogear.com > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 2:51 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> Yes there is a PDP 10 front panel and Kenbak on Ebay > >> > >> and no, a "best offer" of $250 for the front panel will not be accepted. > >> :-) > >> > >> Bill > >> > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 3 15:41:36 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 14:41:36 -0600 Subject: Not DEC related but still hoping for some help: Problems w/ LJ 4+ Printer In-Reply-To: <5CA4D4FB.3030201@pico-systems.com> References: <008101d4e98e$22207f90$66617eb0$@net> <5CA410DE.4030202@pico-systems.com> <00d901d4e9f6$aef44e20$0cdcea60$@net> <5CA4D4FB.3030201@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <3bfc602c-6d9c-a9d8-d2c4-6d8a46c3574c@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/3/2019 9:44 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > First, since you have not checked with another cartridge, is to examine > the corona wires and/or "combs" on the cart. Sometimes the wires break > at one end.? Also, toner spills could short it out, I've had that > before.? Bent contacts on the cart where it connects the HV to the > printer could also be making bad/no contact. > > But, the caps could be it, the symptom where it starts working after > warming up does indicate weak caps. You might want to order a few HV diodes because a leaky HV diode could be found if the caps are good. > Jon > From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 16:13:15 2019 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 16:13:15 -0500 Subject: Yes there is a PDP 10 front panel and Kenbak on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <402540F1-3540-4D50-8A9E-E964D3706691@gmail.com> Are these yours Bill? Interesting to see the Kenbak and story behind buying most of the Nova Scotia museum. Lots of interesting other things seller has as well. Prices vary like a lot of eBay sellers but some neat stuff the collector has. Color me jealous. ;-) Sent from my Apple /////c > On Apr 3, 2019, at 1:51 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > Yes there is a PDP 10 front panel and Kenbak on Ebay > > and no, a "best offer" of $250 for the front panel will not be accepted. > :-) > > Bill From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 16:56:50 2019 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 14:56:50 -0700 Subject: Tektronix Keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <3c456b01-ff4d-0a79-a3db-b079185784cc@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 9:50 AM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 4/3/19 8:53 AM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > > What I didn't understand was a fascination with the black mechanical Cherry switches the keyboard used. These turn out > > to be extremely popular with the 'gaming' community. > > This 'community' is referred to here as "keyboard collecting scum" A keyboard collector walks into Mos Eisley spaceport. He feels right at home. From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Wed Apr 3 17:20:49 2019 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2019 23:20:49 +0100 Subject: H786 power supply help wanted In-Reply-To: <731CADF46A3E4636B758D8E2CFE40F71@CharlesDellLap> References: <6134F3EB116C4C4EA72986FC66237CC8@CharlesDellLap> <731CADF46A3E4636B758D8E2CFE40F71@CharlesDellLap> Message-ID: <87v9zuvigu.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Glad the 23 PSU seems to be working again. My H7861 had a fault a couple of years ago where the 12V rail stopped working. It turned out to be a dead 555 timer, totally flat-lined. Perhaps it would be worth checking that in your H7861 if it is the MJE15030 that is blowing. At least it's a nice power supply to work on. :) Aaron Charles via cctalk writes: > Update: I removed the H786 from the chassis, and set it up on the workbench with loads on the +5 and +12. > No output. 320V across the half-bridge, but no +12 Startup. Found I had forgotten to put a cliplead to the primary of the startup transformer. > Turned it on and it works... 5 and 12 volts into 1 ohm and 4.7 ohm respectively. WTF. > > So I disconnected the PC supply, put the H786 back in, and it fired right up (including the real-time clock) and I ran it for half an hour. > Go figure. Ain?t classic computers fun sometimes... > > > From: Paul Anderson > Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2019 3:26 PM > To: Charles ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: H786 power supply help wanted > > > Hi Charles, > > The H786 was standard for the 11/23, BA11-N. The H7861 was for the 11/23+, BA11-S and had afrw more amps of +5 volts. > > I would start by looking at the electronic caps. > > I have a few extras here but am pretty busy for the next week or so. > > Paul > > On Sat, Mar 30, 2019 at 2:25 PM Charles via cctalk wrote: > > I have a PDP-11/23+ and the power supply (H786) "last ran when parked" a > year or so ago. But there's no DC output at all today, and the fans are > running so there is AC power... > I also have the original H7861 that came with it, which had a blown chopper > transistor. I couldn't find anything else bad, so I replaced the transistor > and within a few seconds of running, it blew again. :( > > So I need some help - I've never been good at fixing switching supplies, not > to mention the high-side hazards. > The simplest solution would be just to replace it with a working unit. > Anyone got one to sell, hopefully cheap? :) > If not, can anyone fix one or both of mine? > > thanks! > Charles -- Aaron Jackson - M6PIU http://aaronsplace.co.uk/ From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Apr 4 01:17:12 2019 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2019 08:17:12 +0200 Subject: Yes there is a PDP 10 front panel and Kenbak on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20190404061710.GU24947@Update.UU.SE> Hi Could you provide an URL. ebay search works (or not works) in mysterious ways. /P On Wed, Apr 03, 2019 at 02:51:41PM -0400, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Yes there is a PDP 10 front panel and Kenbak on Ebay > > and no, a "best offer" of $250 for the front panel will not be accepted. > :-) > > Bill From bhilpert at shaw.ca Thu Apr 4 01:36:43 2019 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 23:36:43 -0700 Subject: Yes there is a PDP 10 front panel and Kenbak on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20190404061710.GU24947@Update.UU.SE> References: <20190404061710.GU24947@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On 2019-Apr-03, at 11:17 PM, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk wrote: > Could you provide an URL. ebay search works (or not works) in mysterious > ways. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-Equipment-PDP-10-Control-Console/183760017149 https://www.ebay.com/itm/ULTRA-Rare-Vintage-ORIGINAL-KENBAK-1-aka-CTI-5050-Computer-1st-Personal/254187561426 From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Apr 4 08:25:04 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2019 09:25:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Retaining file-modified timestamps Message-ID: <20190404132504.1AEFA18C0F4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> The following, which I just sent to TUHS, might be of intererest to some here. Noel ---- So, a while back I mentioned that I'd done tweaked versions of 'cp', 'mv', 'chmod' etc for V6 which retained the original modified date of a file (when the actual contents were not changed). I had some requests for those versions, which I have finally got around to checking and uploading (along with 'mvall', which for some reason V6 didn't have). I've added them to a couple of my V6 pages: http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/tech/V6Unix.html#mvall http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/tech/ImprovingV6.html#FileWrite Note (per the page) that the latter group all require the smdate() system call, which was commented out in 'vanilla' V6 (because using it confused the backup system); the page gives instructions on how to turn it back on. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Apr 4 09:33:29 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2019 10:33:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Yes there is a PDP 10 front panel and Kenbak on Ebay Message-ID: <20190404143329.2270118C0F4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Al Kossow > because it's $125 lower than the last one that sold. > https://www.ebay.com/itm/113190860596 Wow - somebody got a real deal! Looks like the seller listed it as a BiN with a low (for what it was) price; bet they're kicking themselves now, seeing what this one is going for, that they didn't go the auction route. Noel From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Thu Apr 4 10:39:10 2019 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2019 08:39:10 -0700 Subject: Not DEC related but still hoping for some help: Problems w/ LJ 4+ Printer In-Reply-To: <3bfc602c-6d9c-a9d8-d2c4-6d8a46c3574c@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <008101d4e98e$22207f90$66617eb0$@net> <5CA410DE.4030202@pico-systems.com> <00d901d4e9f6$aef44e20$0cdcea60$@net> <5CA4D4FB.3030201@pico-systems.com> <3bfc602c-6d9c-a9d8-d2c4-6d8a46c3574c@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <005801d4eafc$8d7091d0$a851b570$@net> > You might want to order a few HV diodes because a leaky HV diode > could be found if the caps are good. > Thanks. I will keep that in mind. -Ali From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 10:48:38 2019 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2019 12:48:38 -0300 Subject: Not DEC related but still hoping for some help: Problems w/ LJ 4+ Printer In-Reply-To: <005801d4eafc$8d7091d0$a851b570$@net> References: <008101d4e98e$22207f90$66617eb0$@net> <5CA410DE.4030202@pico-systems.com> <00d901d4e9f6$aef44e20$0cdcea60$@net> <5CA4D4FB.3030201@pico-systems.com> <3bfc602c-6d9c-a9d8-d2c4-6d8a46c3574c@jetnet.ab.ca> <005801d4eafc$8d7091d0$a851b570$@net> Message-ID: If I were you, I'd buy a complete DC/hv assembly, it must be cheap on ebay ---8<---Corte aqui---8<--- http://www.tabajara-labs.blogspot.com http://www.tabalabs.com.br ---8<---Corte aqui---8<--- Em qui, 4 de abr de 2019 ?s 12:39, Ali via cctalk escreveu: > > > You might want to order a few HV diodes because a leaky HV diode > > could be found if the caps are good. > > > > Thanks. I will keep that in mind. > > -Ali > > From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Thu Apr 4 11:10:30 2019 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2019 09:10:30 -0700 Subject: Not DEC related but still hoping for some help: Problems w/ LJ 4+ Printer In-Reply-To: References: <008101d4e98e$22207f90$66617eb0$@net> <5CA410DE.4030202@pico-systems.com> <00d901d4e9f6$aef44e20$0cdcea60$@net> <5CA4D4FB.3030201@pico-systems.com> <3bfc602c-6d9c-a9d8-d2c4-6d8a46c3574c@jetnet.ab.ca> <005801d4eafc$8d7091d0$a851b570$@net> Message-ID: <005f01d4eb00$ed619630$c824c290$@net> >If I were you, I'd buy a complete DC/hv assembly, it must be cheap on ebay Where is the fun in that? :) To be honest I checked and it is about $50. Parts from mouser (w/ upgrades to 105c caps) are about $5 plus S&H. I will try recapping and if that fails then I will consider buying a whole HV board. From Richard.Sheppard at telus.com Thu Apr 4 15:58:32 2019 From: Richard.Sheppard at telus.com (Richard Sheppard) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2019 20:58:32 +0000 Subject: FTGH - Compaq laptop LTE 5280 Message-ID: <8683c3c8d5bc444e9e5dc9ef787f73b9@BTWP000243.corp.ads> Worked last time powered (no guarantees), with expansion dock. Free for pickup only in Toronto, Canada. Richard Sheppard From mhs.stein at gmail.com Thu Apr 4 16:05:00 2019 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2019 17:05:00 -0400 Subject: FTGH - Compaq laptop LTE 5280 In-Reply-To: <8683c3c8d5bc444e9e5dc9ef787f73b9@BTWP000243.corp.ads> References: <8683c3c8d5bc444e9e5dc9ef787f73b9@BTWP000243.corp.ads> Message-ID: I'd be happy to give it a good home if it's still homeless... On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 4:58 PM Richard Sheppard via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Worked last time powered (no guarantees), with expansion dock. > Free for pickup only in Toronto, Canada. > > Richard Sheppard > From cube1 at charter.net Thu Apr 4 22:17:59 2019 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2019 22:17:59 -0500 Subject: Yes there is a PDP 10 front panel and Kenbak on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20190404143329.2270118C0F4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190404143329.2270118C0F4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <4ac57d1a-7765-0701-686e-f0fdde5be351@charter.net> On 4/4/2019 9:33 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Al Kossow > > > because it's $125 lower than the last one that sold. > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/113190860596 > > Wow - somebody got a real deal! Looks like the seller listed it as > a BiN with a low (for what it was) price; bet they're kicking themselves > now, seeing what this one is going for, that they didn't go the auction > route. > > Noel > These are very different. That older one was really just a case - it had no lights, perhaps no actual switches (I am guessing not), and certainly no circuit boards. This one has that stuff (and I see that the price has gotten to an amount I once bid on a CDC-160 [and lost.] JRJ From guykd at optusnet.com.au Thu Apr 4 22:39:21 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2019 14:39:21 +1100 Subject: Yes there is a PDP 10 front panel and Kenbak on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4ac57d1a-7765-0701-686e-f0fdde5be351@charter.net> References: <20190404143329.2270118C0F4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20190404143329.2270118C0F4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190405143921.0105dad8@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 10:17 PM 4/04/2019 -0500, you wrote: >These are very different. That older one was really just a case - it >had no lights, perhaps no actual switches (I am guessing not), and >certainly no circuit boards. This one has that stuff (and I see that >the price has gotten to an amount I once bid on a CDC-160 [and lost.] Whoever bidder x***n is, someone should explain to them about snipe bidding services. What I want to know is, how do front panels of historic computers so often get separated from the rest of the computer? Do people just rip them off as souvenirs and scrap the rest of the machine? It's very hard to understand. I found several orphan PDP front panels at the ACMS warehouse diaspora last year. And rescued all that I found. But it's so sad. Guy From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Apr 5 10:32:51 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 11:32:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Yes there is a PDP 10 front panel and Kenbak on Ebay Message-ID: <20190405153251.0D91918C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Guy Dunphy > What I want to know is, how do front panels of historic computers so > often get separated from the rest of the computer? I suspect it probably happened a while back, before the start of the vintage computer movement; you need to look at the decisions from the perspective of back then. (As an example, back then, I was offered the complete PDP-11/45 of my old group. I was up to my neck in contemporary, important, alligators - I was on the IESG of the IETF at the time - and didn't have the time to deal with saving it and moving it to my house; so I let it go - a loss I regret terribly now.) Here's what probably happened: the machines were about to be scrapped, and saving the whole machine wasn't practical - often, in part, because those machines were _huge_. (The CPU _alone_ of a KA10 would fill an entire room of a normal house.) So, one has a limit to what one can do. So the choice is to save the front panel alone... or to save nothing. Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 10:42:19 2019 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 11:42:19 -0400 Subject: Yes there is a PDP 10 front panel and Kenbak on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20190405153251.0D91918C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190405153251.0D91918C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 11:32 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > From: Guy Dunphy > > > What I want to know is, how do front panels of historic computers so > > often get separated from the rest of the computer? > > > > Here's what probably happened: the machines were about to be scrapped, and > saving the whole machine wasn't practical - often, in part, because those > machines were _huge_. (The CPU _alone_ of a KA10 would fill an entire room > of > a normal house.) So, one has a limit to what one can do. So the choice is > to > save the front panel alone... or to save nothing. > > Noel > It is also possible that some front panels were removed and set aside back when the associated computer was in production, i,e, due to a fault in the panel. The original computer long ago separated and recycled but the panel remained in the storage closet until discovered by an employee who was allowed to take home as a souvenir, many years later. "I remember when I worked on that ..." I am thankful to have been able to rescue a few orphaned front panels of extinct machines. With simH and a Raspberry Pi there is a way to give them a new life. B From kylevowen at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 10:59:10 2019 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 10:59:10 -0500 Subject: PDP-8: count number of set bits in a word Message-ID: Just wondering if anyone has come up with a fast way to count the number of 1s in a word on a PDP-8. The obvious way is looping 12 times, rotating the word through the link or sign bit, incrementing a count based on the value of the link or sign. With a small lookup table, you can reduce the total number of loops by counting multiple groups of bits at a time, but this of course comes with the cost of using more memory. Any other suggestions? Much appreciated, Kyle From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 5 11:06:00 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 09:06:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Yes there is a PDP 10 front panel and Kenbak on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20190405153251.0D91918C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190405153251.0D91918C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > What I want to know is, how do front panels of historic computers so > often get separated from the rest of the computer? The moosehead is still hanging on the wall. But, the backside of the moose is no longer on the other side of that wall. From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 11:56:08 2019 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 12:56:08 -0400 Subject: PDP-8: count number of set bits in a word In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I suppose you could test each nybble for zero, then equate a 16-element LUT on nybbles not zero? -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 11:59 AM Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > Just wondering if anyone has come up with a fast way to count the number of > 1s in a word on a PDP-8. The obvious way is looping 12 times, rotating the > word through the link or sign bit, incrementing a count based on the value > of the link or sign. > > With a small lookup table, you can reduce the total number of loops by > counting multiple groups of bits at a time, but this of course comes with > the cost of using more memory. Any other suggestions? > > Much appreciated, > > Kyle > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Apr 5 12:04:10 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 17:04:10 +0000 Subject: More stuff looking for a good home Message-ID: Here's a list of some more stuff if anyone is interested in making reasonable offers. Probably the last I will have before my demise when my wife will likely send everything that's left to the skip. MODULE Description QTY NUMBER M9202 UNIBUS connector 3 M9302 UNIBUS TERM 2 ADAC 1632TTL 3 ADAC 1616/32HCO 1 Plessey Peripherals 703185-100C & 701877-100 with Cable 1 Data Translation DT2769/EP057 REV F 1 Data Translation DT2769/EP057 REV J 1 Data Translation DT15150/EP075 Dual D/A Converter Module M3106 4 Line Async Mux 1 M3106 4 Line Async Mux (w/broken handle) 1 M9060 LOAD MODULE 1 M8017-AA Async Line Interface 1 M8017 Async Line Interface (w/broken handle and berg socket) 1 G7273 NPG AND BUS GRANT CONTINUITY 5 RL Disk Drive Terminators 4 MV-II Function Select / SLU Module 1 A few modules that I ecpect are rare but of limited interest. Terak 8510 Memory and Video module w/bulkhead connector 1 Terak 8510 Floppy Module w/bulkhead connector 2 Terak 8510 Floppy Module wo/bulkhead connector 2 Terak 8510 RS-232 Serial Module w/bulkhead connector 4 Terak 8510 RS-232 bulkhead connectors 3 Terak 8510 Video bulkhead connectors 2 Condition of the Terak Modules can not be verified. They were functional at the time they were removed but I no longer have any functional Teraks to test them. Shipping would be the smallest size USPS "If it fits it ships" box so you can plan accordingly. bill From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 5 12:57:54 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 10:57:54 -0700 Subject: Storage for 1/2" open reel tape Message-ID: I've noted earlier that the vinyl "hanger strips" for 1/2" magnetic tape have been degrading, becoming brittle and simply breaking away, sometimes in small particles. So I set off looking for a low-cost substitute--any hangers that I could rustle up would probably be on their last legs at this late date. I hit on the idea of using 16mm move film plastic "cans". Much to my surprise, I found that there is still an active market for these things. After getting a few samples, I've discovered that the 800' cans fit a 10.5" reel (virtually all of the tape that I get) quite well. I'm not yet finished evaluating samples, but here's a photo of a can from Tuscan Corporation holding a reel of tape: https://i.imgur.com/KPKg75s.jpg The cans are vented, so not hermetically sealed. In the case of film, this is apparently done intentionally, as the acetate base of older film outgasses acetic acid, which only hastens degradation. If anyone's interested, I'll continue to post updates. I've got some from Larry Urbanski coming in Monday. Larry seems to have the lowest price on these--about $5.75 each. --Chuck From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Fri Apr 5 14:08:53 2019 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 12:08:53 -0700 Subject: PDP-8: count number of set bits in a word In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Kyle Owen via cctalk: Friday, April 05, 2019 8:59 AM > Just wondering if anyone has come up with a fast way to count the number of > 1s in a word on a PDP-8. The obvious way is looping 12 times, rotating the > word through the link or sign bit, incrementing a count based on the value > of the link or sign. That's probably the shortest, but not the fastest. (I get 13 words.) You could use RTL and check two bits at a time, for a probably-faster version. (That one is 32 words with the loop unrolled.) > With a small lookup table, you can reduce the total number of loops by > counting multiple groups of bits at a time, but this of course comes with > the cost of using more memory. Any other suggestions? I know a hack to clear a single bit at a time. Here's my first attempt (14 words): / / Return the number of bits that were set in AC. CBITS, .-. DCA CBMASK / Save the value DCA CBCNT / No bits yet CBLP, TAD CBMASK / Get bits, or bits-1 AND CBMASK / Likely clear bottom bit SNA / Last one? JMP CBRET ISZ CBCNT / One more bit DCA CBMASK / New mask CMA / Complement bottom bit JMP CBLP / ...and go again CBRET, TAD CBCNT / Get result JMP I CBITS / ...and return CBMASK, .-. CBCNT, .-. $ The run time is related to the number of bits set, and independent of their position. It feels like we did this a year or two ago? Or maybe in the PiDP group? Vince From mark at matlockfamily.com Fri Apr 5 13:27:56 2019 From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 13:27:56 -0500 Subject: Yes there is a PDP 10 front panel and Kenbak on Ebay Message-ID: Subject: Re: Yes there is a PDP 10 front panel and Kenbak on Ebay > > From: Guy Dunphy > > > What I want to know is, how do front panels of historic computers so > > often get separated from the rest of the computer? > The other thing that happened on PDP-11/70s was that if your system was maintained by DEC, the field service group would want to install the KY11-RE Remote Serial Console Control which replaced the beautiful front panel with a more or less blank panel with only a key switch. It let DEC dial in and run diagnostics, and the Blinkin' Light panel was set aside often in the collection of someone. However the blank panel still needs the bezel for a good display of it. So unfortunately, there are more console panels than bezels which often did not get salvaged at the time the PDP-11/70 was taken out of service. Mark M. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 14:24:15 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 15:24:15 -0400 Subject: Yes there is a PDP 10 front panel and Kenbak on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 3:16 PM Mark Matlock via cctalk wrote: > Subject: Re: Yes there is a PDP 10 front panel and Kenbak on Ebay > The other thing that happened on PDP-11/70s was that if your system > was maintained by DEC, the field service group would want to install > the KY11-RE Remote Serial Console Control which replaced the beautiful > front panel with a more or less blank panel with only a key switch. It > let DEC dial in and run diagnostics, and the Blinkin' Light panel was > set aside often in the collection of someone. However the blank panel > still needs the bezel for a good display of it. So unfortunately, > there are more console panels than bezels which often did not get > salvaged at the time the PDP-11/70 was taken out of service. I got two machines with the remote console panel. Fortunately, I _have_ the cast bezel, and I've managed to get one 11/70 PCB with LED but no switches (removed by the previous owner to restore other machines) and one that's 100% intact. What I _don't_ have is the plexiglass. I am looking at drawing up in CAD a vector file to scribe a clear one which will be easy to make on a laser cutter and will hopefully look cool as well. -ethan From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Fri Apr 5 15:49:16 2019 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 20:49:16 +0000 Subject: PDP-8: count number of set bits in a word In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Hi Kyle, hat's a really interesting problem, and the government (NSA) wanted this badly and done FAST. they asked Seymour Cray to create a specific instruction for this and they called it 'population count' Anybody know the why and how it is useful? I am deep in matrix math books and 'classification algorithms' in statistics math, looking into electronics reliability WCCA, so this is an interesting topic. Randy ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk Sent: Friday, April 5, 2019 12:08 PM To: Kyle Owen; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP-8: count number of set bits in a word From: Kyle Owen via cctalk: Friday, April 05, 2019 8:59 AM > Just wondering if anyone has come up with a fast way to count the number of > 1s in a word on a PDP-8. The obvious way is looping 12 times, rotating the > word through the link or sign bit, incrementing a count based on the value > of the link or sign. That's probably the shortest, but not the fastest. (I get 13 words.) You could use RTL and check two bits at a time, for a probably-faster version. (That one is 32 words with the loop unrolled.) > With a small lookup table, you can reduce the total number of loops by > counting multiple groups of bits at a time, but this of course comes with > the cost of using more memory. Any other suggestions? I know a hack to clear a single bit at a time. Here's my first attempt (14 words): / / Return the number of bits that were set in AC. CBITS, .-. DCA CBMASK / Save the value DCA CBCNT / No bits yet CBLP, TAD CBMASK / Get bits, or bits-1 AND CBMASK / Likely clear bottom bit SNA / Last one? JMP CBRET ISZ CBCNT / One more bit DCA CBMASK / New mask CMA / Complement bottom bit JMP CBLP / ...and go again CBRET, TAD CBCNT / Get result JMP I CBITS / ...and return CBMASK, .-. CBCNT, .-. $ The run time is related to the number of bits set, and independent of their position. It feels like we did this a year or two ago? Or maybe in the PiDP group? Vince From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Fri Apr 5 15:49:54 2019 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 13:49:54 -0700 Subject: Storage for 1/2" open reel tape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005201d4ebf1$1ff7b480$5fe71d80$@net> > I hit on the idea of using 16mm move film plastic "cans". Much to my > surprise, I found that there is still an active market for these > things. Chuck, For the uneducated amongst us exactly what are you referring to? Are you talking about the plastic can where the tape sits in? Or the strap that goes around the plastic cover or something entirely different? Thanks. -Ali From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Apr 5 16:02:11 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 17:02:11 -0400 Subject: PDP-8: count number of set bits in a word In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Apr 5, 2019, at 4:49 PM, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: > > Hi Kyle, > > hat's a really interesting problem, and the government (NSA) wanted this badly and done FAST. > > they asked Seymour Cray to create a specific instruction for this and they called it 'population count' > > Anybody know the why and how it is useful? > > I am deep in matrix math books and 'classification algorithms' in statistics math, looking into electronics reliability WCCA, so this is an interesting topic. I don't know how it was used in crypto, but I know of another application: the PLATO system uses it for fuzzy matches of text input. The idea is to split the strings (user input and expected input) into tokens, then xor each token and do a population count on that. "close" is defined as count < some threshold. There may be more encoding in there, i.e., it's not necessarily an xor of the straight text, but that's the basic idea. The implementation matches the "lookup table" technique, but with a fair amount of hardware thrown at it. The 60-bit word is split into 15 4-bit pieces. Each 4-bit piece is run through a logic block to generate a 3 bit count, then those counts are summed by a tree of adders to yield the final 6 bit result. It's pretty compact, about 60 modules (where each module has about 30-50 transistors on it) and takes 800 ns (8 cycles, it's a 10 MHz machine) for the whole instruction, the actual count process is about half that. paul From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 5 16:20:43 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 14:20:43 -0700 Subject: Storage for 1/2" open reel tape In-Reply-To: <005201d4ebf1$1ff7b480$5fe71d80$@net> References: <005201d4ebf1$1ff7b480$5fe71d80$@net> Message-ID: <91a4cb14-0115-1dd1-1828-a7be75ae7d90@sydex.com> On 4/5/19 1:49 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote: >> I hit on the idea of using 16mm move film plastic "cans". Much to my >> surprise, I found that there is still an active market for these >> things. > > Chuck, > > For the uneducated amongst us exactly what are you referring to? Are you talking about the plastic can where the tape sits in? Or the strap that goes around the plastic cover or something entirely different? Take a look at the image here: https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/photo/historic-image-of-an-old-computer-tape-high-res-stock-photography/128587299 See how each reel of tape hangs from a slot in a horizontal bar? Those white-and-black strips wrapped around the tapes are what I'm referring to as being deteriorated. Here's a photo of a single tape reel with one: http://ibmcollectable.com/gallery/album124/2400ft_tape IBM used a somewhat different attachment for their auto-loading drives. I can't find an online photo of one, but I have several of those. Rather than using a single flexible strip, they used a multi-part rigid plastic surround. --Chuck From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Apr 5 16:58:26 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 15:58:26 -0600 Subject: Storage for 1/2" open reel tape In-Reply-To: <91a4cb14-0115-1dd1-1828-a7be75ae7d90@sydex.com> References: <005201d4ebf1$1ff7b480$5fe71d80$@net> <91a4cb14-0115-1dd1-1828-a7be75ae7d90@sydex.com> Message-ID: <417d6590-4009-c55f-7655-c337a76180ef@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 4/5/19 3:20 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > See how each reel of tape hangs from a slot in a horizontal bar? > Those white-and-black strips wrapped around the tapes are what I'm > referring to as being deteriorated. How does that come off the reel? Does the reel slide out? Does it unlatch? Do you have a picture of one without the tape reel in it? -- Grant. . . . unix || die From guykd at optusnet.com.au Fri Apr 5 17:05:51 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2019 09:05:51 +1100 Subject: PDP-8: count number of set bits in a word In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190406090551.00e054f0@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 08:49 PM 5/04/2019 +0000, you wrote: >Hi Kyle, > >hat's a really interesting problem, and the government (NSA) wanted this badly and done FAST. > >they asked Seymour Cray to create a specific instruction for this and they called it 'population count' > >Anybody know the why and how it is useful? > >I am deep in matrix math books and 'classification algorithms' in statistics math, looking into electronics reliability WCCA, so this is an interesting topic. > >Randy If we're considering hardware solutions, then the best way is to build a simple I/O device, with a writeable latch for the data word, fed as address into some nonvolatile memory like a big EPROM or flash, the output of which can be read via a port. Fill the NV memory with the required lookup table (derived by some code written in anything. BASIC for lols.) So the required code is just one write and one read. See the size chart: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPROM The biggest EPROM made was ST M27C322, 32 Mbit, 2Mx16. 21 Address bits, 16 data bits, 80nS access time. http://pdf.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheet/stmicroelectronics/6184.pdf Wasteful though, since the result only needs 5 bits. For an 8 bit result, 27C4001, 512K x 8 bit, 19 Address bits. http://www-inst.eecs.berkeley.edu/~cs150/fa02/docs/M27C4001.pdf If the argument is only a 16bit word, then use a 27512. 64K x 8 bit Guy From phil at ultimate.com Fri Apr 5 17:07:39 2019 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2019 18:07:39 -0400 Subject: PDP-8: count number of set bits in a word In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201904052207.x35M7dqT043143@ultimate.com> A general discussion of population count: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/8590432/when-to-use-parallel-counting-mit-hakmem-for-bitcount-when-memory-is-an-issue From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 5 17:29:20 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 16:29:20 -0600 Subject: Yes there is a PDP 10 front panel and Kenbak on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <20190405153251.0D91918C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 4/5/2019 10:06 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> What I want to know is, how do front panels of historic computers so >> often get separated from the rest of the computer? Could be just storage problems. The main computer here, racks of stuff there, cables and panel there, and things get lost over time. > The moosehead is still hanging on the wall. > But, the backside of the moose is no longer on the other side of that wall. > > But what if was a TALKING moose head? The movie "MURDER BY DEATH" comes to mind.Ben. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 5 17:44:21 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 15:44:21 -0700 Subject: Storage for 1/2" open reel tape In-Reply-To: <417d6590-4009-c55f-7655-c337a76180ef@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <005201d4ebf1$1ff7b480$5fe71d80$@net> <91a4cb14-0115-1dd1-1828-a7be75ae7d90@sydex.com> <417d6590-4009-c55f-7655-c337a76180ef@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 4/5/19 2:58 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 4/5/19 3:20 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> See how each reel of tape hangs from a slot in a horizontal bar? Those >> white-and-black strips wrapped around the tapes are what I'm referring >> to as being deteriorated. > > How does that come off the reel? > > Does the reel slide out?? Does it unlatch?? Do you have a picture of one > without the tape reel in it? The IRS facility photo used the IBM style; not flexible, but rather a two-part sliding rigid plastic arrangement. I think that the IRS also used a robotic "picker. I'd have to take a photo of one, I think, though if you have a very ancient Wright-Line catalog, it's probably in there. But basically, just behind the "hook", there's a black plastic latch. When closed, it tensions the white band. https://www.electronicsurplus.it/open2b/var/products/27/92/0-d95b2a25-800.jpg what was convenient with those is that the latch-and-hook are attached to the vinyl band by fitting with a couple of holes punched in the band. In a pinch, you could make hangers for smaller (than 10.5") reels by cutting and punching new holes. --Chuck From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Apr 5 17:53:04 2019 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 18:53:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Storage for 1/2" open reel tape In-Reply-To: References: <005201d4ebf1$1ff7b480$5fe71d80$@net> <91a4cb14-0115-1dd1-1828-a7be75ae7d90@sydex.com> <417d6590-4009-c55f-7655-c337a76180ef@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Apr 2019, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 4/5/19 2:58 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> On 4/5/19 3:20 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>> See how each reel of tape hangs from a slot in a horizontal bar? Those >>> white-and-black strips wrapped around the tapes are what I'm referring >>> to as being deteriorated. >> >> How does that come off the reel? >> >> Does the reel slide out?? Does it unlatch?? Do you have a picture of one >> without the tape reel in it? > > The IRS facility photo used the IBM style; not flexible, but rather a > two-part sliding rigid plastic arrangement. I think that the IRS also > used a robotic "picker. > > I'd have to take a photo of one, I think, though if you have a very > ancient Wright-Line catalog, it's probably in there. There's a good picture of the IBM autoloading tape seal on this page: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/media.html Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From stark at mit.edu Fri Apr 5 18:08:31 2019 From: stark at mit.edu (Greg Stark) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 19:08:31 -0400 Subject: Raspberry Pi for vaxen turbochannel In-Reply-To: References: <039001d49708$f58dcaf0$e0a960d0$@com> <5fece640-799c-ab69-b859-c85d7e170061@jetnet.ab.ca> <9E15AD53-C996-4CAE-85F5-E0D92FE2C115@avanthar.com> <7987b75d-1681-194e-16bb-591681f6c014@smbfc.net> <4ed98a60-fd56-bccf-abf2-bae24fdbeeff@comcast.net> <17449fb4-a415-339d-f6db-0131663059e2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <02261bd2-166d-3e9f-bb47-567c5f367cee@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: I've had a plan to set up a raspberry Pi as the mopd and NFS server to bit my vaxstation for a while. To be a self contained demo I could probably fit it inside the vaxstation. One of the annoyances is that it would need another power cord and need a place to mount it inside. It occurs to me that the turbochannel slots have 4A each. It would be entirely possible to print a whole open source board like the raspberry Pi (or banana Pi, etc) on a turbochannel card and kill two birds with one stone. It would give a nice solid place to mount the pi with access to the ports on the back and power supplied by the vaxstation. Is this something that would be of interest to anyone other than me? On Fri 21 Dec 2018, 22:09 Zane Healy via cctalk, wrote: > > > On Dec 21, 2018, at 5:20 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On 12/21/18 3:30 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > >> I?m afraid I?ll have to agree with Jim here. When talking about Retro > Gaming, in most cases, the Raspberry Pi, while better than nothing, aren?t > as good as the real thing, especially in regards to video and audio. > > > > There's nothing to be afraid of. > > > > I was asking from a position of ignorance because I've not used either. > I have some colleagues at work that use the Raspberry Pi. So I know of, > but not about, it. > > The Raspberry Pi?s are a pretty impressive little tool for situations > where they have enough resources. For the purpose of emulation, they?re a > great platform. The problem is less with the Raspberry Pi, and more with > emulation as a whole. In other words, this is a software issue, not a > hardware issue. > > >> Now despite what I just said about the Raspberry Pi, I have three of > them around here, one is a small VAX running OpenVMS 7.3, one is a DPS-8 > running Multics, and the other a KL-10B running TOPS-20. I had dreams of > building a VMS cluster of RPi 3+?s, but have kind of gone off that idea, > due to the superior performance I get using my VMware Cluster to host VAX > instances. > > > > I'll have to check out the DPS-8 and KL-10B. > > For the PDP-10, my favorite is KLH10. > http://www.avanthar.com/healyzh/decemulation/pdp10emu.html > > For the DPS-8, there really is only one option, and sadly GCOS-8 isn?t > available, only Multics. Still it?s pretty cool to finally be able to use > Multics, and it?s a lot more user friendly than GCOS-8 (I used to be a > Systems Analyst at a DPS-8 mainframe site). > http://www.avanthar.com/healyzh/decemulation/Honeywell_DPS-8.html > > For those unaware, my DEC Emulation pages had to move late last year, due > to my ISP of ~20 years being ransacked by a Crook. I managed to do quite a > bit of work updating the pages earlier this year. > > Zane > > > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Apr 5 18:15:14 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 17:15:14 -0600 Subject: Storage for 1/2" open reel tape In-Reply-To: References: <005201d4ebf1$1ff7b480$5fe71d80$@net> <91a4cb14-0115-1dd1-1828-a7be75ae7d90@sydex.com> <417d6590-4009-c55f-7655-c337a76180ef@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 4/5/19 4:44 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > The IRS facility photo used the IBM style; not flexible, but rather a > two-part sliding rigid plastic arrangement. I think that the IRS also > used a robotic "picker. I'd hazard a guess that the IRS acquired theirs from IBM. Even if they are more expensive per reel / hanger, they are approved, from an approved vendor, in the system. "Hay Bob, order X hangers next time you submit an order." No need to think beyond that. It just happens. > I'd have to take a photo of one, I think, though if you have a very > ancient Wright-Line catalog, it's probably in there. > > But basically, just behind the "hook", there's a black plastic latch. > When closed, it tensions the white band. > > https://www.electronicsurplus.it/open2b/var/products/27/92/0-d95b2a25-800.jpg ACK I'm getting the mental impression that it's somewhat like a spring form pan. The latch opens and releases tension off of the strip that goes around the tape reel. When it's latched, it cinches against it. When it's unlatched, there's enough play to allow the tape reel to come out. Am I remotely close? I wonder if some of this could be 3D printed. > what was convenient with those is that the latch-and-hook are attached > to the vinyl band by fitting with a couple of holes punched in the band. > In a pinch, you could make hangers for smaller (than 10.5") reels by > cutting and punching new holes. ACK -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 5 18:25:46 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 16:25:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Yes there is a PDP 10 front panel and Kenbak on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <20190405153251.0D91918C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: >>> What I want to know is, how do front panels of historic computers so >>> often get separated from the rest of the computer? > Could be just storage problems. The main computer here, racks of stuff there, > cables and panel there, and things get lost over time. >> The moosehead is still hanging on the wall. >> But, the backside of the moose is no longer on the other side of that wall. On Fri, 5 Apr 2019, ben via cctalk wrote: > But what if was a TALKING moose head? The movie "MURDER BY DEATH" comes to > mind.Ben. Disunirregardless of whether the moose has anything to say, there should be a half circle table under the moosehead; and a matching half circle table on the other side of the wall. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 5 18:54:30 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 16:54:30 -0700 Subject: Storage for 1/2" open reel tape In-Reply-To: References: <005201d4ebf1$1ff7b480$5fe71d80$@net> <91a4cb14-0115-1dd1-1828-a7be75ae7d90@sydex.com> <417d6590-4009-c55f-7655-c337a76180ef@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <874268c1-6243-e621-2d56-e354864a2f64@sydex.com> On 4/5/19 4:15 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > ACK > > I'm getting the mental impression that it's somewhat like a spring form > pan.? The latch opens and releases tension off of the strip that goes > around the tape reel.? When it's latched, it cinches against it.? When > it's unlatched, there's enough play to allow the tape reel to come out. > > Am I remotely close? You're very close--same idea. When I get a chance, I'll do some close-ups on the mechanism. But same idea--the latch puts the band under tension. That works fine, so long as the structural integrity of the band is maintained. Failures commonly occur around the "holes" punched in the vinyl, but I've seem some bands that are neatly split down the middle. > I wonder if some of this could be 3D printed. I don't know--and I don't know if it would be economically feasible. At less than $6 for a poly "can" that completely encloses the tape, that's a tough target. The nutty thing is that I remember when CDC Sunnyvale went to the vinyl band "hangers" in their facility rather than the wire "racks" that held the reel and its acrylic case (tremendous variation there). I recall seeing dumpsters full of the acrylic cases. Maybe somewhere there's a landfill stuffed full with them... I wonder how long it will be before no non-senior adult remembers CD jewel cases. I recall getting rid of several boxes of Plextor-type CD caddies only a couple of decades ago. --Chuck From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 19:14:49 2019 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 17:14:49 -0700 Subject: Storage for 1/2" open reel tape In-Reply-To: <874268c1-6243-e621-2d56-e354864a2f64@sydex.com> References: <005201d4ebf1$1ff7b480$5fe71d80$@net> <91a4cb14-0115-1dd1-1828-a7be75ae7d90@sydex.com> <417d6590-4009-c55f-7655-c337a76180ef@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <874268c1-6243-e621-2d56-e354864a2f64@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 5, 2019 at 4:54 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 4/5/19 4:15 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > > ACK > > > > I'm getting the mental impression that it's somewhat like a spring form > > pan. The latch opens and releases tension off of the strip that goes > > around the tape reel. When it's latched, it cinches against it. When > > it's unlatched, there's enough play to allow the tape reel to come out. > > > > Am I remotely close? > > You're very close--same idea. They came in two varieties (that I remember seeing). A more rigid one like the springform pan; unlatching it allowed a few inch gap, and the ring would expand enough for the reel to be removed. (I also seem to remember seeing tape drives that would open the latch and draw the tape through the gap - the reel was still "inside" the ring, but clear enough for the reel to spin.) The other variety was a much more flexible material, more like a clothing belt. It could easily be pulled straight. -- Charles From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Apr 5 19:31:28 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 20:31:28 -0400 Subject: Storage for 1/2" open reel tape In-Reply-To: References: <005201d4ebf1$1ff7b480$5fe71d80$@net> <91a4cb14-0115-1dd1-1828-a7be75ae7d90@sydex.com> <417d6590-4009-c55f-7655-c337a76180ef@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: > On Apr 5, 2019, at 7:15 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > >> ... >> But basically, just behind the "hook", there's a black plastic latch. When closed, it tensions the white band. >> https://www.electronicsurplus.it/open2b/var/products/27/92/0-d95b2a25-800.jpg > > ACK > > I'm getting the mental impression that it's somewhat like a spring form pan. The latch opens and releases tension off of the strip that goes around the tape reel. When it's latched, it cinches against it. When it's unlatched, there's enough play to allow the tape reel to come out. > > Am I remotely close? Correct. The latch has a thin section which acts as a flexible hinge, and the other end hooks around a hook shape molded into the tip of the white band. When you push the latch against the reel it snaps closed and spring tension holds it that way. The autoloading latch (in http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/media.html) is somewhat similar but with some important differences. The latch can flex around the thin part near the left end. There are actually two parts, pinned together so the thing essentially folds over itself. And the far end in turn is pinned to the tape seal (the end to the right of the seam, in the photo). You mount it into the drive seal and all. The drive has a mechanism that engages the latch and flips it open, which unfolds the folded latch shape and thereby forces the two ends of the seal apart maybe 3/4 inch. There are some locating shapes that keep the two ends aligned, you can see the button that does this just to the right of the latch, its stud moves in a slot on the seal band. That sliding action opens up a window (holes in the two halves slide to align). So at this point the reel can rotate freely because the seal is no longer clamped onto the rim, and air blowing through holes in the seal blows the end of the tape out through that window. To make this more reliable the end of the tape is cut with a arced end and sometimes stiffened slightly. The vacuum system picks up that end, pulls it through the tape path, sucks it onto the takeup hub, and presto changeo, the tape is loaded. Usually. If this works, which is most of the time, it's a great time saver. As an operator you just hang the reel on the spindle, hit "load" and walk away to the next task. I think IBM may have originated this magic; several of the later DEC tape drives supported it as well (TU77 and TU/TA78, if memory serves). paul From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 5 19:45:34 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 17:45:34 -0700 Subject: Storage for 1/2" open reel tape In-Reply-To: References: <005201d4ebf1$1ff7b480$5fe71d80$@net> <91a4cb14-0115-1dd1-1828-a7be75ae7d90@sydex.com> <417d6590-4009-c55f-7655-c337a76180ef@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 4/5/19 5:31 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > If this works, which is most of the time, it's a great time saver. As an operator you just hang the reel on the spindle, hit "load" and walk away to the next task. > > I think IBM may have originated this magic; several of the later DEC tape drives supported it as well (TU77 and TU/TA78, if memory serves). Univac had an interesting setup for Uniservo tape drives--I see a lot of reels with a short (maybe 6") "leader" with a hole spliced onto tapes. I'm not sure how that worked--but on many, if not most of the reels I've seen, the splicing tape has dried out and the little leader just falls right off. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Apr 5 20:13:45 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 18:13:45 -0700 Subject: Storage for 1/2" open reel tape In-Reply-To: References: <005201d4ebf1$1ff7b480$5fe71d80$@net> <91a4cb14-0115-1dd1-1828-a7be75ae7d90@sydex.com> <417d6590-4009-c55f-7655-c337a76180ef@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <18abe970-f524-4d60-6c3a-9313be1fad48@bitsavers.org> On 4/5/19 5:45 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Univac had an interesting setup for Uniservo tape drives--I see a lot of > reels with a short (maybe 6") "leader" with a hole spliced onto tapes. > I'm not sure how that worked I had to re-thread the UNISERVO that is on display at CHM. I have to try to find my pictures that I took. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/univac/magtape/PX899_Mechanical_Parts_of_UNISERVO_Apr58.pdf show it. There is are two hooks that are attached to the reels and it is attached essentially to nylon fishing line. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Apr 5 20:15:34 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 18:15:34 -0700 Subject: Storage for 1/2" open reel tape In-Reply-To: <18abe970-f524-4d60-6c3a-9313be1fad48@bitsavers.org> References: <005201d4ebf1$1ff7b480$5fe71d80$@net> <91a4cb14-0115-1dd1-1828-a7be75ae7d90@sydex.com> <417d6590-4009-c55f-7655-c337a76180ef@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <18abe970-f524-4d60-6c3a-9313be1fad48@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1c507c9e-ea5c-913e-ccd8-143a1dc6881f@bitsavers.org> the other thing I had wondered about was how they kept metal tape from destroying the head. there is a spool of plastic tape that goes between the head and the tape On 4/5/19 6:13 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 4/5/19 5:45 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> Univac had an interesting setup for Uniservo tape drives--I see a lot of >> reels with a short (maybe 6") "leader" with a hole spliced onto tapes. >> I'm not sure how that worked > > I had to re-thread the UNISERVO that is on display at CHM. I have to try > to find my pictures that I took. > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/univac/magtape/PX899_Mechanical_Parts_of_UNISERVO_Apr58.pdf > > show it. > > There is are two hooks that are attached to the reels and it is attached essentially to > nylon fishing line. > > > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 5 21:24:13 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 19:24:13 -0700 Subject: Storage for 1/2" open reel tape In-Reply-To: <18abe970-f524-4d60-6c3a-9313be1fad48@bitsavers.org> References: <005201d4ebf1$1ff7b480$5fe71d80$@net> <91a4cb14-0115-1dd1-1828-a7be75ae7d90@sydex.com> <417d6590-4009-c55f-7655-c337a76180ef@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <18abe970-f524-4d60-6c3a-9313be1fad48@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3a5b3d3f-49c0-cad5-d6cf-928d8ab47f97@sydex.com> On 4/5/19 6:13 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I had to re-thread the UNISERVO that is on display at CHM. I have to try > to find my pictures that I took. > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/univac/magtape/PX899_Mechanical_Parts_of_UNISERVO_Apr58.pdf > > show it. > My guess on the vintage of these is Uniservo VIII (late 60s). From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 04:11:06 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2019 10:11:06 +0100 Subject: Storage for 1/2" open reel tape In-Reply-To: References: <005201d4ebf1$1ff7b480$5fe71d80$@net> <91a4cb14-0115-1dd1-1828-a7be75ae7d90@sydex.com> <417d6590-4009-c55f-7655-c337a76180ef@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <071e01d4ec58$ab2df520$0189df60$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis via > cctalk > Sent: 06 April 2019 01:46 > To: Paul Koning via cctalk > Subject: Re: Storage for 1/2" open reel tape > > On 4/5/19 5:31 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > If this works, which is most of the time, it's a great time saver. As an > operator you just hang the reel on the spindle, hit "load" and walk away to > the next task. > > > > I think IBM may have originated this magic; several of the later DEC tape > drives supported it as well (TU77 and TU/TA78, if memory serves). > Honeywell had it on their systems as well. It was great when it worked but sometimes a tape wouldn't load.... > Univac had an interesting setup for Uniservo tape drives--I see a lot of reels > with a short (maybe 6") "leader" with a hole spliced onto tapes. > I'm not sure how that worked--but on many, if not most of the reels I've > seen, the splicing tape has dried out and the little leader just falls right off. IBM and Honeywell tapes usually had a little dimple in the end so it didn't stick down. There was a special tape cutter you could get that rounded off the end and put the dimple in, > > --Chuck Dave From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Sat Apr 6 09:04:15 2019 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2019 16:04:15 +0200 Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... Message-ID: <687d16df-68fc-cc8d-0de9-327d58ddf01d@greenmail.ch> The seller clearly has no idea, but the starting price is right ! https://www.ebay.de/itm/seltene-Anlage-Puma-Computer-IBM-2020/202646831828?hash=item2f2eb142d4:g:izoAAOSwhV1cpw Jos From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 09:11:28 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2019 10:11:28 -0400 Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... In-Reply-To: <687d16df-68fc-cc8d-0de9-327d58ddf01d@greenmail.ch> References: <687d16df-68fc-cc8d-0de9-327d58ddf01d@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: Its a System/360 model 20 - and looking to be nice shape. Big bucks, even if just a 20. -- Will On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 10:04 AM jos via cctalk wrote: > > > The seller clearly has no idea, but the starting price is right ! > > https://www.ebay.de/itm/seltene-Anlage-Puma-Computer-IBM-2020/202646831828?hash=item2f2eb142d4:g:izoAAOSwhV1cpw > > > > Jos > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 09:13:51 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2019 10:13:51 -0400 Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... In-Reply-To: References: <687d16df-68fc-cc8d-0de9-327d58ddf01d@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: And looking again, some of a System/370 pile (model 125)? Bigger bucks. -- Will On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 10:11 AM William Donzelli wrote: > > Its a System/360 model 20 - and looking to be nice shape. Big bucks, > even if just a 20. > > -- > Will > > On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 10:04 AM jos via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > The seller clearly has no idea, but the starting price is right ! > > > > https://www.ebay.de/itm/seltene-Anlage-Puma-Computer-IBM-2020/202646831828?hash=item2f2eb142d4:g:izoAAOSwhV1cpw > > > > > > > > Jos > > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Apr 6 09:53:11 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2019 14:53:11 +0000 Subject: More stuff looking for a good home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/5/19 1:04 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > > Here's a list of some more stuff if anyone is interested in making > reasonable offers. Probably the last I will have before my demise > when my wife will likely send everything that's left to the skip. > > > MODULE Description QTY > NUMBER > > M9202 UNIBUS connector 3 > M9302 UNIBUS TERM 2 > ADAC 1632TTL 3 > ADAC 1616/32HCO 1 > Plessey Peripherals 703185-100C & 701877-100 with Cable 1 > Data Translation DT2769/EP057 REV F 1 > Data Translation DT2769/EP057 REV J 1 > Data Translation DT15150/EP075 Dual D/A Converter Module > M3106 4 Line Async Mux 1 > M3106 4 Line Async Mux (w/broken handle) 1 > M9060 LOAD MODULE 1 > M8017-AA Async Line Interface 1 > M8017 Async Line Interface (w/broken handle and berg socket) 1 > G7273 NPG AND BUS GRANT CONTINUITY 5 > > RL Disk Drive Terminators 4 > > MV-II Function Select / SLU Module 1 > > A few modules that I ecpect are rare but of limited interest. > > Terak 8510 Memory and Video module w/bulkhead connector 1 > Terak 8510 Floppy Module w/bulkhead connector 2 > Terak 8510 Floppy Module wo/bulkhead connector 2 > Terak 8510 RS-232 Serial Module w/bulkhead connector 4 > Terak 8510 RS-232 bulkhead connectors 3 > Terak 8510 Video bulkhead connectors 2 > > Condition of the Terak Modules can not be verified. > They were functional at the time they were removed > but I no longer have any functional Teraks to test > them. > > Shipping would be the smallest size USPS "If it fits it ships" box > so you can plan accordingly. > Just came across another stack. :-) G727A Grant Continuity -- FLIP CHIP 26 Been a really long time since I had a UNIBUS system!! Amazing what turns up when your spring cleaning. bill From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 09:56:25 2019 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2019 09:56:25 -0500 Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... In-Reply-To: References: <687d16df-68fc-cc8d-0de9-327d58ddf01d@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: wow hope it finds a home be real shame to see that get scraped On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 9:14 AM William Donzelli via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > And looking again, some of a System/370 pile (model 125)? > > Bigger bucks. > > -- > Will > > On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 10:11 AM William Donzelli > wrote: > > > > Its a System/360 model 20 - and looking to be nice shape. Big bucks, > > even if just a 20. > > > > -- > > Will > > > > On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 10:04 AM jos via cctalk > wrote: > > > > > > > > > The seller clearly has no idea, but the starting price is right ! > > > > > > > https://www.ebay.de/itm/seltene-Anlage-Puma-Computer-IBM-2020/202646831828?hash=item2f2eb142d4:g:izoAAOSwhV1cpw > > > > > > > > > > > > Jos > > > > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Apr 6 10:42:11 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2019 15:42:11 +0000 Subject: More stuff looking for a good home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Didn't really "find" these but being as I haven't yet used them and they have been sitting in my cabinet for over 10 years, maybe it's time to just let them go. :-) I have ten RZ28C-VW and one RZ28M-VZ. These are in the carriers for BA-360 Storage Shelves. They are still sealed in the original static proof wrappers. I don't know if that means they are new or DEC Refurbished but I always thought they were new. Seven will fit in a Priority Mail Large box so postage wouldn't be too bad. Anybody interested? bill From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Apr 6 11:01:32 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2019 16:01:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: VCF PNW 2019: Photos and Survey. Please? References: <1883556412.789260.1554566492862.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1883556412.789260.1554566492862@mail.yahoo.com> a pity there are not? name? captions? ? ?for? those of? us that? do? not? travel? well to be? these in person. Great photo? collection though!? Ed# In a message dated 3/31/2019 8:46:29 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: One last spam from VCF PNW 2019 ... Send us your Photos!? We want to put together a shared photo album so thatpeople can see the event from different perspectives.? It's a Google Photosalbum, so if you are a Google Photos user sharing is easy.? If you are nota Google Photos user or you have concerns/questions please let me know andI'll work out an alternative. The shared album can be found at:https://photos.app.goo.gl/e2rzk4iT4aHrQUoy6 Help us make VCF events better!? If you were at the event last weekend Ihave a quick survey that I'd like you to fill out.? The survey will help usshape future events.? The survey is anonymous; we are not collecting emailaddresses unless you want to get a chance at a free t-shirt.? (And eventhen, we are only using the email address for that single purpose.) The survey link is: https://goo.gl/forms/V3DiyxwkpbIOCKn73 Direct feedback by email also works well. Thanks,Mikemichael at vcfed.org or mbbrutman at brutman.com From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 6 11:55:58 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2019 09:55:58 -0700 Subject: Storage for 1/2" open reel tape In-Reply-To: <071e01d4ec58$ab2df520$0189df60$@gmail.com> References: <005201d4ebf1$1ff7b480$5fe71d80$@net> <91a4cb14-0115-1dd1-1828-a7be75ae7d90@sydex.com> <417d6590-4009-c55f-7655-c337a76180ef@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <071e01d4ec58$ab2df520$0189df60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: This is what the end of a short 6" Univac leader looks like: https://i.imgur.com/wPH93Cz.jpg Apologies for the poor quality, but even with the naked eye, it's hard to see that the leader end is "looped" I might be able to enhance this a bit with some image finagling, if anyone's interested. The other end is cut in 45 degree traditional splice. --Chuck From linimon at lonesome.com Sat Apr 6 12:45:17 2019 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2019 17:45:17 +0000 Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... In-Reply-To: References: <687d16df-68fc-cc8d-0de9-327d58ddf01d@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: <20190406174508.GD29971@lonesome.com> On Sat, Apr 06, 2019 at 10:13:51AM -0400, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > And looking again, some of a System/370 pile (model 125)? I hope all of this equipment can be saved, even if only for display value. mcl From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 12:58:31 2019 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2019 12:58:31 -0500 Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... In-Reply-To: <20190406174508.GD29971@lonesome.com> References: <687d16df-68fc-cc8d-0de9-327d58ddf01d@greenmail.ch> <20190406174508.GD29971@lonesome.com> Message-ID: is it me or is it sitting on a riased floor On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 12:45 PM Mark Linimon via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sat, Apr 06, 2019 at 10:13:51AM -0400, William Donzelli via cctalk > wrote: > > And looking again, some of a System/370 pile (model 125)? > > I hope all of this equipment can be saved, even if only for display value. > > mcl > From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Apr 6 13:09:32 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2019 11:09:32 -0700 Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... In-Reply-To: <687d16df-68fc-cc8d-0de9-327d58ddf01d@greenmail.ch> References: <687d16df-68fc-cc8d-0de9-327d58ddf01d@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: Hopefully LCM can go after this to flesh out their peripherals It looks like a nice set of disks and tapes, hopefully the 360-era disk and tape channel controllers are there too On 4/6/19 7:04 AM, jos via cctalk wrote: > https://www.ebay.de/itm/seltene-Anlage-Puma-Computer-IBM-2020/202646831828?hash=item2f2eb142d4:g:izoAAOSwhV1cpw From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Apr 6 13:51:52 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2019 12:51:52 -0600 Subject: More stuff looking for a good home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9a31a8ef-bf70-2015-3fa7-e7223eeee642@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/6/2019 8:53 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Been a really long time since I had a UNIBUS system!! Amazing what > turns up when your spring cleaning. Spring collecting. > bill > You lucky I don't drive, I'd rent a Garbage Truck and do DUMPSTER collecting. This week, 3 8's two 11's half a 360 and dead skunk. :) From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 13:58:39 2019 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2019 13:58:39 -0500 Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... In-Reply-To: References: <687d16df-68fc-cc8d-0de9-327d58ddf01d@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: Any appetite at the CHM? Marc > On Apr 6, 2019, at 1:09 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > Hopefully LCM can go after this to flesh out their peripherals > It looks like a nice set of disks and tapes, hopefully the 360-era > disk and tape channel controllers are there too > >> On 4/6/19 7:04 AM, jos via cctalk wrote: >> >> https://www.ebay.de/itm/seltene-Anlage-Puma-Computer-IBM-2020/202646831828?hash=item2f2eb142d4:g:izoAAOSwhV1cpw > From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 14:03:35 2019 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2019 20:03:35 +0100 Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... In-Reply-To: References: <687d16df-68fc-cc8d-0de9-327d58ddf01d@greenmail.ch> <20190406174508.GD29971@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <99FD7DB5-7CC6-4B77-AB8A-6B45F42AFEC9@gmail.com> > On 6 Apr 2019, at 18:58, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > > is it me or is it sitting on a riased floor I thought that while at the same time marvelling what great condition it all seems to be in, like they just turned everything off, locked the door and left for 40 years. -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 14:06:52 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2019 15:06:52 -0400 Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... In-Reply-To: <99FD7DB5-7CC6-4B77-AB8A-6B45F42AFEC9@gmail.com> References: <687d16df-68fc-cc8d-0de9-327d58ddf01d@greenmail.ch> <20190406174508.GD29971@lonesome.com> <99FD7DB5-7CC6-4B77-AB8A-6B45F42AFEC9@gmail.com> Message-ID: The description states the machines are in a house, and in possibly bad condition. Also, no shipping to the US. -- Will On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 3:02 PM Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 6 Apr 2019, at 18:58, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > > > > is it me or is it sitting on a riased floor > > I thought that while at the same time marvelling what great condition it all seems to be in, like they just turned everything off, locked the door and left for 40 years. > > -- > adrian/witchy > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? > t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs > w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk > > > > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Apr 6 14:15:23 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2019 19:15:23 +0000 Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... In-Reply-To: References: <687d16df-68fc-cc8d-0de9-327d58ddf01d@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: On 4/6/19 2:58 PM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: > Any appetite at the CHM? > Marc > >> On Apr 6, 2019, at 1:09 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> >> Hopefully LCM can go after this to flesh out their peripherals >> It looks like a nice set of disks and tapes, hopefully the 360-era >> disk and tape channel controllers are there too >> >>> On 4/6/19 7:04 AM, jos via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> https://www.ebay.de/itm/seltene-Anlage-Puma-Computer-IBM-2020/202646831828?hash=item2f2eb142d4:g:izoAAOSwhV1cpw >> Maybe I'm seeing a different one, but isn't t his system in Nuremburg, Germany? Do you have any idea of the cost to package and ship a 360 from there? bill From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Sat Apr 6 14:53:31 2019 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2019 20:53:31 +0100 Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... In-Reply-To: References: <687d16df-68fc-cc8d-0de9-327d58ddf01d@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: <7600a996-c841-2180-5a6c-004ba79cea95@ljw.me.uk> It all looks quite complete. Note sure about the 3xxx/5xxx stuff, maybe it's lurking there somewhere. The listing does say there are 6 units 1m x 1m, it's a bit confusing. The Model 20 didn't need a DASD controller and could connect two 2311s directly. Not sure if the resulting disks were compatible with 2841-based 2311s though. It doesn't say whether it's possible to view the stuff, but I could make a trip. Maybe our office would like something to go with the z/Series beer fridge. On 06/04/2019 19:09, Al Kossow via cctech wrote: > Hopefully LCM can go after this to flesh out their peripherals > It looks like a nice set of disks and tapes, hopefully the 360-era > disk and tape channel controllers are there too > > On 4/6/19 7:04 AM, jos via cctalk wrote: > >> https://www.ebay.de/itm/seltene-Anlage-Puma-Computer-IBM-2020/202646831828?hash=item2f2eb142d4:g:izoAAOSwhV1cpw >> -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 6 16:04:31 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2019 14:04:31 -0700 Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... In-Reply-To: References: <687d16df-68fc-cc8d-0de9-327d58ddf01d@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: <81eb8a27-3085-ff86-ce49-a3c0d2ec1779@sydex.com> On 4/6/19 11:09 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Hopefully LCM can go after this to flesh out their peripherals > It looks like a nice set of disks and tapes, hopefully the 360-era > disk and tape channel controllers are there too > > On 4/6/19 7:04 AM, jos via cctalk wrote: > >> https://www.ebay.de/itm/seltene-Anlage-Puma-Computer-IBM-2020/202646831828?hash=item2f2eb142d4:g:izoAAOSwhV1cpw Interesting--it really does belong in a museum--it's not something a hobbyist would be able to usey; even if it was practical (or possible) to get it running again. The 2020 was "sort of" a System/360, with halfword registers and a simplified instruction set. (To do any real arithmetic, you pretty much had to use the packed BCD instructions). I recognize the 2560 Mother F* Card Mulcher, which brings up some interesting memories. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Apr 6 16:05:57 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2019 14:05:57 -0700 Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... In-Reply-To: References: <687d16df-68fc-cc8d-0de9-327d58ddf01d@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: <3c5b5018-e42b-d4bf-c20f-698dd4d20c39@bitsavers.org> > Do you have any idea of the cost to package and ship a 360 > from there? Less than the current value of a dead billionaire. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 6 16:22:51 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2019 14:22:51 -0700 Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... In-Reply-To: <3c5b5018-e42b-d4bf-c20f-698dd4d20c39@bitsavers.org> References: <687d16df-68fc-cc8d-0de9-327d58ddf01d@greenmail.ch> <3c5b5018-e42b-d4bf-c20f-698dd4d20c39@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 4/6/19 2:05 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > >> Do you have any idea of the cost to package and ship a 360 >> from there? > > Less than the current value of a dead billionaire. Does Germany harbor no gold bugs? From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Apr 6 16:36:17 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2019 14:36:17 -0700 Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... In-Reply-To: References: <687d16df-68fc-cc8d-0de9-327d58ddf01d@greenmail.ch> <3c5b5018-e42b-d4bf-c20f-698dd4d20c39@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 4/6/19 2:22 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Does Germany harbor no gold bugs? I have no idea what the recycling rules or industry is in Germany. I'm guessing it's insanely strict. The precious metal content of that little system isn't going to be much. Maybe enough copper to make it worthwhile. Also checked and the disc control is integral. The tapes are channel attached. From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Apr 6 20:01:00 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2019 20:01:00 -0500 Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... In-Reply-To: References: <687d16df-68fc-cc8d-0de9-327d58ddf01d@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: <5CA94BCC.7040308@pico-systems.com> On 04/06/2019 01:09 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Hopefully LCM can go after this to flesh out their peripherals > It looks like a nice set of disks and tapes, hopefully the 360-era > disk and tape channel controllers are there too > > Nope, not on a model 20. The 360/20 did not have channels, it had specific I/O controllers built into the CPU backplane for disk, tape, cards and printers, and an optional one-line serial interface. So, all peripherals plugged into their specific controller in the /20, there were no external control units like a 2821, 2803, 2314, etc. The 360/20 was a VERY limited machine, max of 32KB of memory, but most had a LOT less. There was RPG for it, but most were used for off-line spooling of cards and printing, or RJE systems. If there is a 370 there, possibly there could be control units for that machine in the collection. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Apr 6 20:02:53 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2019 20:02:53 -0500 Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... In-Reply-To: References: <687d16df-68fc-cc8d-0de9-327d58ddf01d@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: <5CA94C3D.9020501@pico-systems.com> On 04/06/2019 01:09 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Hopefully LCM can go after this to flesh out their peripherals > It looks like a nice set of disks and tapes, hopefully the 360-era > disk and tape channel controllers are there too > > On 4/6/19 7:04 AM, jos via cctalk wrote: > >> https://www.ebay.de/itm/seltene-Anlage-Puma-Computer-IBM-2020/202646831828?hash=item2f2eb142d4:g:izoAAOSwhV1cpw > Oh, yeah, I did NOT recognize those dual tape drives with horizontal vacuum columns. Obviously real IBM, but I've never seen them before. Jon From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Apr 6 20:14:24 2019 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2019 20:14:24 -0500 Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... In-Reply-To: <5CA94C3D.9020501@pico-systems.com> References: <687d16df-68fc-cc8d-0de9-327d58ddf01d@greenmail.ch> <5CA94C3D.9020501@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: someones bid on them eh hopefully not a scraper On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 8:03 PM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 04/06/2019 01:09 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > Hopefully LCM can go after this to flesh out their peripherals > > It looks like a nice set of disks and tapes, hopefully the 360-era > > disk and tape channel controllers are there too > > > > On 4/6/19 7:04 AM, jos via cctalk wrote: > > > >> > https://www.ebay.de/itm/seltene-Anlage-Puma-Computer-IBM-2020/202646831828?hash=item2f2eb142d4:g:izoAAOSwhV1cpw > > > Oh, yeah, I did NOT recognize those dual tape drives with > horizontal vacuum columns. > Obviously real IBM, but I've never seen them before. > > Jon > From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Sun Apr 7 18:07:31 2019 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2019 23:07:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... In-Reply-To: <687d16df-68fc-cc8d-0de9-327d58ddf01d@greenmail.ch> References: <687d16df-68fc-cc8d-0de9-327d58ddf01d@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: <1127264547.29568341.1554678451146@mail.yahoo.com> wow! ...Hopefully some larger museums or seriously envolved hobbyists within Germany can take care of this piece of history to save this nice piece of computer history. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de Am Samstag, 6. April 2019, 16:04:26 MESZ hat jos via cctalk Folgendes geschrieben: The seller clearly has no idea, but the starting price is right ! https://www.ebay.de/itm/seltene-Anlage-Puma-Computer-IBM-2020/202646831828?hash=item2f2eb142d4:g:izoAAOSwhV1cpw Jos From kylevowen at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 22:01:49 2019 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2019 22:01:49 -0500 Subject: Game of Life for PDP-8 Message-ID: Back at VCF PNW, the subject of the Game of Life came up among some peers. I recall messing with the BASIC version that supported 32 by 32 cells, and there's also a FOCAL version that can do a whopping 11 by 11 cells. This was simply not enough. So, I wrote my own implementation and came to the realization of why more cells may not actually be better...it's freaking slow! https://github.com/drovak/pdp8life I've improved the performance a bit using some caching and other tricks to skip extraneous processing and twiddling of bits, but running in SimH for lots of cellular life still takes a while. I haven't been able yet to try it on the real hardware, and I can't say I'm looking forward to the speed of the real machine either! I'm working on a few new versions, which may get wrapped up into some conditional assembly soon. One version will support both storage and non-storage oscilloscopes with a VC8E. Another version may work to actually reduce the size of the bitmap to increase speed; it's all a tradeoff, I suppose. Would love to hear some comments if anyone plays with this. And, if someone significantly speeds things up while keeping the large playing field, I'll be very happy to hear how! Kyle From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Apr 7 22:14:09 2019 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2019 23:14:09 -0400 Subject: Game of Life for PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Would love to hear some comments if anyone plays with this. And, if someone > significantly speeds things up while keeping the large playing field, I'll > be very happy to hear how! > > Kyle > A few years ago I made some videos of the output on vt50 driven by my pdp8e. Spontaneous generation of squirrels https://youtu.be/B-H-h-s5IpM Well, they looked like squirrels at the time.. Bill From u.tagge at gmx.de Mon Apr 8 03:55:55 2019 From: u.tagge at gmx.de (Ulrich Tagge) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 10:55:55 +0200 Subject: IBM 360? on eBay.de Message-ID: <1b6b193f-2e13-2793-d63a-ff7b50bd58fc@gmx.de> I'm not affiliated with the seller. https://www.ebay.de/itm/seltene-Anlage-Puma-Computer-IBM-2020/202646831828?hash=item2f2eb142d4:g:izoAAOSwhV1cpwr2&frcectupt=true From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Apr 8 04:52:49 2019 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 11:52:49 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... In-Reply-To: <1127264547.29568341.1554678451146@mail.yahoo.com> References: <687d16df-68fc-cc8d-0de9-327d58ddf01d@greenmail.ch> <1127264547.29568341.1554678451146@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Apr 2019, P Gebhardt wrote: > wow! ...Hopefully some larger museums or seriously envolved hobbyists > within Germany can take care of this piece of history to save this nice > piece of computer history. Hm, let's see if our museum can get that system - as long as the price stays reasonable. It's not too far from Stuttgart and we could pick it up in Nuremberg (or possibly in Herzogenaurach). Christian From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Apr 8 08:54:01 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 13:54:01 +0000 Subject: Game of Life for PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: When I first got my arduino and connected it to a small oled screen I thought about a script to generate life on the screen. As it was, I wrote a pong game, using pots for paddles. One thing to think about, in life, is how to deal with edges. One way is that the bits could just fall off. Another way is they could reflect. Yet another way is the edges could wrap around. In other words, if it when off the top, it would show up in the same column at the bottom of the screen. A variation of this is that it might swap sides when going of an edge. This could include rotating axis and/or swapping polarity of axis. Each has interesting effects when shooting gliders at things. There is a lot of stuff on the web. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Bill Degnan via cctalk Sent: Sunday, April 7, 2019 8:14 PM To: Kyle Owen; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Game of Life for PDP-8 > > Would love to hear some comments if anyone plays with this. And, if someone > significantly speeds things up while keeping the large playing field, I'll > be very happy to hear how! > > Kyle > A few years ago I made some videos of the output on vt50 driven by my pdp8e. Spontaneous generation of squirrels https://youtu.be/B-H-h-s5IpM Well, they looked like squirrels at the time.. Bill From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 09:02:37 2019 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 09:02:37 -0500 Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... In-Reply-To: References: <687d16df-68fc-cc8d-0de9-327d58ddf01d@greenmail.ch> <1127264547.29568341.1554678451146@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: yay good luck On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 4:53 AM Christian Corti via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sun, 7 Apr 2019, P Gebhardt wrote: > > wow! ...Hopefully some larger museums or seriously envolved hobbyists > > within Germany can take care of this piece of history to save this nice > > piece of computer history. > > Hm, let's see if our museum can get that system - as long as the price > stays reasonable. It's not too far from Stuttgart and we could pick > it up in Nuremberg (or possibly in Herzogenaurach). > > Christian > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Apr 8 09:18:21 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 14:18:21 +0000 Subject: Game of Life for PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: For those searching on the web, look for life and Conway. Otherwise you get a lot of other junk. There is an interesting video of an interview with John done not to many years ago. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of dwight via cctalk Sent: Monday, April 8, 2019 6:54 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Game of Life for PDP-8 When I first got my arduino and connected it to a small oled screen I thought about a script to generate life on the screen. As it was, I wrote a pong game, using pots for paddles. One thing to think about, in life, is how to deal with edges. One way is that the bits could just fall off. Another way is they could reflect. Yet another way is the edges could wrap around. In other words, if it when off the top, it would show up in the same column at the bottom of the screen. A variation of this is that it might swap sides when going of an edge. This could include rotating axis and/or swapping polarity of axis. Each has interesting effects when shooting gliders at things. There is a lot of stuff on the web. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Bill Degnan via cctalk Sent: Sunday, April 7, 2019 8:14 PM To: Kyle Owen; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Game of Life for PDP-8 > > Would love to hear some comments if anyone plays with this. And, if someone > significantly speeds things up while keeping the large playing field, I'll > be very happy to hear how! > > Kyle > A few years ago I made some videos of the output on vt50 driven by my pdp8e. Spontaneous generation of squirrels https://youtu.be/B-H-h-s5IpM Well, they looked like squirrels at the time.. Bill From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Mon Apr 8 12:44:47 2019 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 12:44:47 -0500 Subject: Storage for 1/2" open reel tape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20190408174447.GA8763@RawFedDogs.net> On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 10:57:54AM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I hit on the idea of using 16mm move film plastic "cans". Much to my > surprise, I found that there is still an active market for these things. My small 16mm collection is stored on an open reel tape cart. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 8 12:56:04 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 10:56:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Storage for 1/2" open reel tape In-Reply-To: <20190408174447.GA8763@RawFedDogs.net> References: <20190408174447.GA8763@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: >> I hit on the idea of using 16mm move film plastic "cans". Much to my >> surprise, I found that there is still an active market for these things. On Mon, 8 Apr 2019, Kevin Monceaux via cctalk wrote: > My small 16mm collection is stored on an open reel tape cart. I wonder how tape rings would do on 16mm reels? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 8 13:06:39 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 11:06:39 -0700 Subject: Storage for 1/2" open reel tape In-Reply-To: <20190408174447.GA8763@RawFedDogs.net> References: <20190408174447.GA8763@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <849da4d5-37d7-7aee-54d8-c88efa3e0d82@sydex.com> On 4/8/19 10:44 AM, Kevin Monceaux via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 10:57:54AM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> I hit on the idea of using 16mm move film plastic "cans". Much to my >> surprise, I found that there is still an active market for these things. > > My small 16mm collection is stored on an open reel tape cart. I'm not following. Are you proposing this for magnetic tape? --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 8 13:51:36 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 11:51:36 -0700 Subject: 1/2" tape storage. In-Reply-To: <8ea49162-d54a-99d3-7a87-2034453b006a@sydex.com> References: <020fcf33-c239-27a1-f437-25fdcb53db4c@bitsavers.org> <8ea49162-d54a-99d3-7a87-2034453b006a@sydex.com> Message-ID: Just got Larry Urbanski's film cans in--about the same as the others; 800' can fits a 10.5" tape reel perfectly. The difference is that Urbanski's aren't vented, which, while being a minus for acetate movie film, is probably a plus for mag tape: Image here: https://i.imgur.com/pVfkFqW.jpg At this point, these seem to be the low-price leader at $5.73 each. --Chuck From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Mon Apr 8 17:11:43 2019 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 17:11:43 -0500 Subject: Sticking RL02 positioner Message-ID: <03F04E3300054E9992FB0EFC7802D2D5@CharlesDellLap> One of my RL02 drives (that sat for a long time) has developed what appears to be a sticky head positioner. But it's only a problem going from the full-retracted position to loading track 0. Once it's loaded, the drive will pass all seek and read/write tests. It takes a surprising (to me) amount of force to pull the heads out into the disk area (power off, no pack). When they're out there, the arm slides back and forth easily. Sometimes it won't load at all - push the load button, light goes out, disk spins up to what sounds like normal speed, but the heads never move and the Ready light doesn't come on. There's supposed to be a Fault after 40 secs but that doesn't happen - it'll sit there forever spinning but not ready. If I turn off the power and remove the pack, and pull the positioner out just enough to avoid opening the Heads Home microswitch (which causes a Fault light), then it'll spin up, load track 0, and work fine the rest of the day. The manual (as usual) only recommends replacing the bad assembly for ease in field servicing, which is deliberate. But I don't have a DEC repairman and a warehouse full of parts handy... Is there some kind of adjustment or lubrication I can do? If I replace the positioner then I have to realign the heads (not too bad a job on this drive, though). Any ideas? thanks Charles From t.gardner at computer.org Mon Apr 8 18:10:36 2019 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 16:10:36 -0700 Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... In-Reply-To: <1127264547.29568341.1554678451146@mail.yahoo.com> References: <687d16df-68fc-cc8d-0de9-327d58ddf01d@greenmail.ch> <1127264547.29568341.1554678451146@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <009c01d4ee60$46d82af0$d48880d0$@computer.org> FWIW the tape drive is an IBM 2315 announced April 16, 1965 for use on low end S/360s. Here is a brochure as well as manuals at http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/2415/ Tom -----Original Message----- From: P Gebhardt [mailto:p.gebhardt at ymail.com] Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2019 4:08 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Pleas ID this IBM system.... wow! ...Hopefully some larger museums or seriously envolved hobbyists within Germany can take care of this piece of history to save this nice piece of computer history. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de Am Samstag, 6. April 2019, 16:04:26 MESZ hat jos via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> Folgendes geschrieben: The seller clearly has no idea, but the starting price is right ! https://www.ebay.de/itm/seltene-Anlage-Puma-Computer-IBM-2020/202646831828?hash=item2f2eb142d4:g:izoAAOSwhV1cpw Jos From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Apr 8 18:26:20 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 19:26:20 -0400 Subject: Sticking RL02 positioner In-Reply-To: <03F04E3300054E9992FB0EFC7802D2D5@CharlesDellLap> References: <03F04E3300054E9992FB0EFC7802D2D5@CharlesDellLap> Message-ID: <6AFD2601-7799-4222-BA20-640CDEE827BD@comcast.net> > On Apr 8, 2019, at 6:11 PM, Charles via cctalk wrote: > > One of my RL02 drives (that sat for a long time) has developed what appears to be a sticky head positioner. > But it's only a problem going from the full-retracted position to loading track 0. > Once it's loaded, the drive will pass all seek and read/write tests. > > It takes a surprising (to me) amount of force to pull the heads out into the disk area (power off, no pack). When they're out there, the arm slides back and forth easily. > Sometimes it won't load at all - push the load button, light goes out, disk spins up to what sounds like normal speed, but the heads never move and the Ready light doesn't come on. > There's supposed to be a Fault after 40 secs but that doesn't happen - it'll sit there forever spinning but not ready. > If I turn off the power and remove the pack, and pull the positioner out just enough to avoid opening the Heads Home microswitch (which causes a Fault light), then it'll spin up, load track 0, and work fine the rest of the day. > > The manual (as usual) only recommends replacing the bad assembly for ease in field servicing, which is deliberate. > But I don't have a DEC repairman and a warehouse full of parts handy... Is there some kind of adjustment or lubrication I can do? Lubrication in a disk assembly sounds like a thing to avoid because of contamination. I don't know the RL02 specifically, but some pack type disk drives have a "head unload ramp", a wedge shaped device that lifts the heads away from the platters when the positioner retracts to the unload position. I wonder if there might be dirt on those that could be cleaned with a suitable cleaner (kimwipes or similar lint free cleaner) and solvent (96% isopropanol comes to mind). Does the book give any guidance about this sort of thing? paul From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Mon Apr 8 18:29:53 2019 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 18:29:53 -0500 Subject: Sticking RL02 positioner In-Reply-To: <6AFD2601-7799-4222-BA20-640CDEE827BD@comcast.net> References: <03F04E3300054E9992FB0EFC7802D2D5@CharlesDellLap> <6AFD2601-7799-4222-BA20-640CDEE827BD@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5D2B227F416D485C9C2E2711F440BFAA@CharlesDellLap> -----Original Message----- From: Paul Koning Sent: Monday, April 08, 2019 6:26 PM To: Charles ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Sticking RL02 positioner > On Apr 8, 2019, at 6:11 PM, Charles via cctalk > wrote: > > One of my RL02 drives (that sat for a long time) has developed what > appears to be a sticky head positioner. > But it's only a problem going from the full-retracted position to loading > track 0. > Once it's loaded, the drive will pass all seek and read/write tests. > > It takes a surprising (to me) amount of force to pull the heads out into > the disk area (power off, no pack). When they're out there, the arm slides > back and forth easily. > Sometimes it won't load at all - push the load button, light goes out, > disk spins up to what sounds like normal speed, but the heads never move > and the Ready light doesn't come on. > There's supposed to be a Fault after 40 secs but that doesn't happen - > it'll sit there forever spinning but not ready. > If I turn off the power and remove the pack, and pull the positioner out > just enough to avoid opening the Heads Home microswitch (which causes a > Fault light), then it'll spin up, load track 0, and work fine the rest of > the day. > > The manual (as usual) only recommends replacing the bad assembly for ease > in field servicing, which is deliberate. > But I don't have a DEC repairman and a warehouse full of parts handy... Is > there some kind of adjustment or lubrication I can do? Lubrication in a disk assembly sounds like a thing to avoid because of contamination. I don't know the RL02 specifically, but some pack type disk drives have a "head unload ramp", a wedge shaped device that lifts the heads away from the platters when the positioner retracts to the unload position. I wonder if there might be dirt on those that could be cleaned with a suitable cleaner (kimwipes or similar lint free cleaner) and solvent (96% isopropanol comes to mind). Does the book give any guidance about this sort of thing? paul =============================================== Yes, I am sure there is such a ramp, since the heads do move close together when the positioner extends. I can feel it "wedging". I'll take another look at it, when I have obtained some lint-free wipes or swabs :) From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Apr 8 20:40:20 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2019 20:40:20 -0500 Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... In-Reply-To: <009c01d4ee60$46d82af0$d48880d0$@computer.org> References: <687d16df-68fc-cc8d-0de9-327d58ddf01d@greenmail.ch> <1127264547.29568341.1554678451146@mail.yahoo.com> <009c01d4ee60$46d82af0$d48880d0$@computer.org> Message-ID: <5CABF804.50604@pico-systems.com> On 04/08/2019 06:10 PM, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > FWIW the tape drive is an IBM 2315 announced April 16, 1965 for use on low end S/360s. Here is a brochure as well as manuals at http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/2415/ > > So, is that a capstan and pinch roller drive? I'd kind of guess so, if announced in 1965. (for future readers, 2315 is apparently a typo, 2415 would fit in with 24xx models being tape drives, 23xx was for disks.) Jon From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Mon Apr 8 23:34:28 2019 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 21:34:28 -0700 Subject: Tape Storage Rack WAS: RE: 1/2" tape storage. In-Reply-To: References: <020fcf33-c239-27a1-f437-25fdcb53db4c@bitsavers.org> <8ea49162-d54a-99d3-7a87-2034453b006a@sydex.com> Message-ID: <002401d4ee8d$85c86810$91593830$@net> While on the subject of tape storage anyone know if it is still possible to get desktop/table top wire bins to hold tapes in canisters and/or reels? Not that I have that many tapes or anything like that. This would be more for display purposes than anything else. Something akin to this: ibm51xx.classiccmp.org/CCTalkPics/taperack.png Do they still make things like this or do I have to find it at university junk sale? Thanks. -Ali From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Apr 9 00:46:53 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 22:46:53 -0700 Subject: Tape Storage Rack WAS: RE: 1/2" tape storage. In-Reply-To: <002401d4ee8d$85c86810$91593830$@net> References: <020fcf33-c239-27a1-f437-25fdcb53db4c@bitsavers.org> <8ea49162-d54a-99d3-7a87-2034453b006a@sydex.com> <002401d4ee8d$85c86810$91593830$@net> Message-ID: <20A7E350-55C7-4CCA-BE63-D44954FF88F6@avanthar.com> > On Apr 8, 2019, at 9:34 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote: > > While on the subject of tape storage anyone know if it is still possible to get desktop/table top wire bins to hold tapes in canisters and/or reels? Not that I have that many tapes or anything like that. This would be more for display purposes than anything else. > > Something akin to this: ibm51xx.classiccmp.org/CCTalkPics/taperack.png > > Do they still make things like this or do I have to find it at university junk sale? > > Thanks. > > -Ali The ones I have came out of the Tektronix country store decades ago. I think that you?ll only find these used, if you get lucky. Of course I use mine for drying darkroom prints. :-) My 9-Track tape collection lives in a filing cabinet. Zane From jlw at jlw.com Mon Apr 8 22:15:05 2019 From: jlw at jlw.com (Jeff Woolsey) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 20:15:05 -0700 Subject: %20Storage%20for%201/2"%20open%20reel%20tape Message-ID: <7aa01a15-e994-2161-aa97-b5d10ffef905@jlw.com> > >>/I hit on the idea of using 16mm move film plastic "cans". Much to my />>/surprise, I found that there is still an active market for these things. / > On Mon, 8 Apr 2019, Kevin Monceaux via cctalk wrote: > >/My small 16mm collection is stored on an open reel tape cart. / > I wonder how tape rings would do on 16mm reels? You mean the write rings?? They're fixed at the hub size.... As for write rings, most sites had more than they actually need, many times over.? You really only need as many as you have tape drives... I've always wanted to make an Olympics logo out of write wrings, but never could find all the right colors. I have a couple black ones around the gearshift in my car (like horseshoes). -- Jeff Woolsey {{woolsey,jlw}@jlw,first.last@{gmail,jlw}}.com Nature abhors straight antennas, clean lenses, and empty storage. "Delete! Delete! OK!" -Dr. Bronner on disk space management Card-sorting, Joel. -Crow on solitaire From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 8 22:25:04 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 20:25:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: %20Storage%20for%201/2"%20open%20reel%20tape In-Reply-To: <7aa01a15-e994-2161-aa97-b5d10ffef905@jlw.com> References: <7aa01a15-e994-2161-aa97-b5d10ffef905@jlw.com> Message-ID: >>> /My small 16mm collection is stored on an open reel tape cart. / >> I wonder how tape rings would do on 16mm reels? > You mean the write rings?? They're fixed at the hub size.... No, I meant the circumferential hangers. Since I occasionally processed my own movie film, I usually had plenty of the light-tight cans that the blank film was shipped in. But, usually only 100 foot reels, so too small for tape. Large reels didn't cost MUCH, but it added up. Some people would scrap old films for the reels, cans, and shipping boxes. (such as old Doctor Who episodes that probably wouldn't be aired again) From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 22:26:45 2019 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 22:26:45 -0500 Subject: %20Storage%20for%201/2"%20open%20reel%20tape In-Reply-To: References: <7aa01a15-e994-2161-aa97-b5d10ffef905@jlw.com> Message-ID: whats with the weird tag on this thread? On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 10:25 PM Fred Cisin via cctech wrote: > >>> /My small 16mm collection is stored on an open reel tape cart. / > >> I wonder how tape rings would do on 16mm reels? > > You mean the write rings? They're fixed at the hub size.... > > No, I meant the circumferential hangers. > > Since I occasionally processed my own movie film, I usually had plenty of > the light-tight cans that the blank film was shipped in. But, usually > only 100 foot reels, so too small for tape. > > Large reels didn't cost MUCH, but it added up. > Some people would scrap old films for the reels, cans, and shipping boxes. > (such as old Doctor Who episodes that probably wouldn't be aired again) > > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Apr 8 22:46:40 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 21:46:40 -0600 Subject: Storage for 1/2" open reel tape In-Reply-To: References: <7aa01a15-e994-2161-aa97-b5d10ffef905@jlw.com> Message-ID: <0ad39688-b089-eaef-368c-d1373534f4c0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 4/8/19 9:26 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctech wrote: > whats with the weird tag on this thread? It looks like the spaces got encoded as %20 for some reason. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 9 00:23:00 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 22:23:00 -0700 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3a_=c2=a0Storage_for_1/2=22_open_reel_tape?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <393ad2a0-4c80-0f7c-6962-7bc1e6ddef04@sydex.com> On 4/8/19 9:06 PM, Jeff Woolsey via cctech wrote: >> I've noted earlier that the vinyl "hanger strips" for 1/2" magnetic tape >> have been degrading, becoming brittle and simply breaking away, >> sometimes in small particles. > > I have about a hundred tapes from various contributors, and have noticed > no age-related [1] deterioration of the seals, probably because mine > don't get handled very much.? About 1/3 of mine have the vinyl hanger > strips, another third the autoload seals, and the remainder are in the > bulky canisters (with several different closures).? I also have a couple > of tape racks (think "dish rack") that hold maybe thirty tapes, but the > canisters are too thick to fit in. That's great--but these are customer tapes, not mine and many are from the 1960s and 70s. (About 2/3s of the current batch are 7-track) Perhaps 50 years of storage takes its toll. I don't know. The other minor annoyance is that 40-50 years tends to dry out the adhesive on labels and less often, leader splices. As far as racks go, you can sometimes find the 16mm film racks at auction--they rarely attract bids. They're mostly Neumade products. --Chuck From jlw at jlw.com Mon Apr 8 23:06:13 2019 From: jlw at jlw.com (Jeff Woolsey) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 21:06:13 -0700 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3a=c2=a0Storage_for_1/2=22_open_reel_tape?= Message-ID: > I've noted earlier that the vinyl "hanger strips" for 1/2" magnetic tape > have been degrading, becoming brittle and simply breaking away, > sometimes in small particles. I have about a hundred tapes from various contributors, and have noticed no age-related [1] deterioration of the seals, probably because mine don't get handled very much.? About 1/3 of mine have the vinyl hanger strips, another third the autoload seals, and the remainder are in the bulky canisters (with several different closures).? I also have a couple of tape racks (think "dish rack") that hold maybe thirty tapes, but the canisters are too thick to fit in. The tapes hang pretty well from the front lip of the wall-mounted wire shelves (that you can get at most big-box-home-stores) I installed not for that purpose. The thing is, I've read and photographed most of them, so I don't need [2] them anymore.? Their owners, like me, only wanted the data online, not the media back. Most museums have more than they want or can use, as well.? Some tapes have common-sense restrictions on redistribution (Personally Identifiable Information, I think they call it nowadays). I've even got some new, never-written ones.? But it pains me to trash them, so I'm open to suggestions. = [1] I have dropped and broken a couple of them, but that was due to insufficient age of the handler...? Some did not survive the reading process due to oxide-binder aging, but the seals are fine. [2] In many cases, usually by repurposing extra copies of software distribution tapes, the most recent data is shorter than the original, so the tails of older things past the EOF1 label and double tapemark can be read without much difficulty.? The thing is, I didn't figure this out until I'd been reading tapes a while, so the earlier ones may yield to re-examining. -- Jeff Woolsey {{woolsey,jlw}@jlw,first.last@{gmail,jlw}}.com Nature abhors straight antennas, clean lenses, and empty storage. "Delete! Delete! OK!" -Dr. Bronner on disk space management Card-sorting, Joel. -Crow on solitaire From jlw at jlw.com Mon Apr 8 23:13:25 2019 From: jlw at jlw.com (Jeff Woolsey) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 21:13:25 -0700 Subject: %20 nonsense Message-ID: <0eafd40f-ff38-ca79-f2f9-124cdaf82912@jlw.com> > whats with the weird tag on this thread? Oops, sorry. Clicking on an address in the mailing list viewed as a web page via http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2019-April tries to fire up MacOS X Mail, which I don't want because I use Thunderbird.? So I "Copy Email Address" and paste it into a Thunderbird compose window To: field, and it has cctech at classiccmp.org?Subject=Re:%20'd_subject_line_mess&otherjunk.? I copied that into the Subject: line, and thought something would do the right thing with them upon receipt.? Oh well, there I go overestimating the intelligence of software again. -- Jeff Woolsey {{woolsey,jlw}@jlw,first.last@{gmail,jlw}}.com Nature abhors straight antennas, clean lenses, and empty storage. "Delete! Delete! OK!" -Dr. Bronner on disk space management Card-sorting, Joel. -Crow on solitaire From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Apr 8 23:15:56 2019 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 23:15:56 -0500 Subject: %20 nonsense In-Reply-To: <0eafd40f-ff38-ca79-f2f9-124cdaf82912@jlw.com> References: <0eafd40f-ff38-ca79-f2f9-124cdaf82912@jlw.com> Message-ID: u mean the inteligence of bloated software On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 11:13 PM Jeff Woolsey via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > whats with the weird tag on this thread? > > Oops, sorry. > > Clicking on an address in the mailing list viewed as a web page via > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2019-April tries to fire up > MacOS X Mail, which I don't want because I use Thunderbird. So I "Copy > Email Address" and paste it into a Thunderbird compose window To: field, > and it has > cctech at classiccmp.org?Subject=Re:%20'd_subject_line_mess&otherjunk. I > copied that into the Subject: line, and thought something would do the > right thing with them upon receipt. Oh well, there I go overestimating > the intelligence of software again. > > -- > Jeff Woolsey {{woolsey,jlw}@jlw,first.last@{gmail,jlw}}.com > Nature abhors straight antennas, clean lenses, and empty storage. > "Delete! Delete! OK!" -Dr. Bronner on disk space management > Card-sorting, Joel. -Crow on solitaire > > From jim.manley at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 01:16:17 2019 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 00:16:17 -0600 Subject: %20 nonsense In-Reply-To: References: <0eafd40f-ff38-ca79-f2f9-124cdaf82912@jlw.com> Message-ID: To those of us who develop AI in the real world, it stands for "Artificial Incompetence". We're not talking about just the software, but the practitioners.who should know better than to allow anyone (especially themselves) to overpromise and shamelessly promote AI being able to do things that are simply ridiculous ... On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 10:16 PM Adrian Stoness via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > u mean the inteligence of bloated software > > > On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 11:13 PM Jeff Woolsey via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > whats with the weird tag on this thread? > > > > Oops, sorry. > > > > Clicking on an address in the mailing list viewed as a web page via > > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2019-April tries to fire up > > MacOS X Mail, which I don't want because I use Thunderbird. So I "Copy > > Email Address" and paste it into a Thunderbird compose window To: field, > > and it has > > cctech at classiccmp.org?Subject=Re:%20'd_subject_line_mess&otherjunk. I > > copied that into the Subject: line, and thought something would do the > > right thing with them upon receipt. Oh well, there I go overestimating > > the intelligence of software again. > > > > -- > > Jeff Woolsey {{woolsey,jlw}@jlw,first.last@{gmail,jlw}}.com > > Nature abhors straight antennas, clean lenses, and empty storage. > > "Delete! Delete! OK!" -Dr. Bronner on disk space management > > Card-sorting, Joel. -Crow on solitaire > > > > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Apr 9 08:30:34 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 09:30:34 -0400 Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... In-Reply-To: <5CABF804.50604@pico-systems.com> References: <687d16df-68fc-cc8d-0de9-327d58ddf01d@greenmail.ch> <1127264547.29568341.1554678451146@mail.yahoo.com> <009c01d4ee60$46d82af0$d48880d0$@computer.org> <5CABF804.50604@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > On Apr 8, 2019, at 9:40 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > On 04/08/2019 06:10 PM, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: >> FWIW the tape drive is an IBM 2315 announced April 16, 1965 for use on low end S/360s. Here is a brochure as well as manuals at http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/2415/ >> >> > So, is that a capstan and pinch roller drive? I'd kind of guess so, if announced in 1965. I don't think other companies followed that strange design approach even back then, though. Never mind the pinch roller part; I could never understand why IBM would build vacuum columns with the oxide facing out, sliding against the vacuum column side walls. > (for future readers, 2315 is apparently a typo, 2415 would fit in with 24xx models being tape drives, 23xx was for disks.) Yes, 2315 is the RK05 lookalike found in the 360 model 44. paul From sales at elecplus.com Tue Apr 9 09:50:31 2019 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 09:50:31 -0500 Subject: Tektronix Keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <3c456b01-ff4d-0a79-a3db-b079185784cc@comcast.net> Message-ID: <163b01d4eee3$94bf2a10$be3d7e30$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2019 11:43 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Tektronix Keyboard On 4/3/19 8:53 AM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > What I didn't understand was a fascination with the black mechanical Cherry switches the keyboard used. These turn out > to be extremely popular with the 'gaming' community. This 'community' is referred to here as "keyboard collecting scum" Hey now, be nice :-) I supply these people, and to be fair, I also try to find suppliers for you guys. The keyboard community has taught me a LOT about keyboards that I never would have imagined. A number of people here were quite happy to scrounge the warehouse before it closed a couple of years ago. Cindy --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From cym224 at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 08:16:47 2019 From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 09:16:47 -0400 Subject: %20 nonsense In-Reply-To: <0eafd40f-ff38-ca79-f2f9-124cdaf82912@jlw.com> References: <0eafd40f-ff38-ca79-f2f9-124cdaf82912@jlw.com> Message-ID: On 09/04/2019, Jeff Woolsey via cctech wrote: >> whats with the weird tag on this thread? > > Oops, sorry. > > Clicking on an address in the mailing list viewed as a web page via > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2019-April tries to fire up > MacOS X Mail, which I don't want because I use Thunderbird. That can be changed. N. From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Apr 9 10:27:52 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2019 10:27:52 -0500 Subject: %20Storage%20for%201/2"%20open%20reel%20tape In-Reply-To: References: <7aa01a15-e994-2161-aa97-b5d10ffef905@jlw.com> Message-ID: <5CACB9F8.8030401@pico-systems.com> On 04/08/2019 10:26 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > whats with the weird tag on this thread? > > %20 is an escaped form of the space character. Some mail programs escape all control characters, or even anything like {} ~. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Apr 9 10:30:51 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2019 10:30:51 -0500 Subject: Tape Storage Rack WAS: RE: 1/2" tape storage. In-Reply-To: <002401d4ee8d$85c86810$91593830$@net> References: <020fcf33-c239-27a1-f437-25fdcb53db4c@bitsavers.org> <8ea49162-d54a-99d3-7a87-2034453b006a@sydex.com> <002401d4ee8d$85c86810$91593830$@net> Message-ID: <5CACBAAB.60206@pico-systems.com> On 04/08/2019 11:34 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote: > While on the subject of tape storage anyone know if it is still possible to get desktop/table top wire bins to hold tapes in canisters and/or reels? Not that I have that many tapes or anything like that. This would be more for display purposes than anything else. > > Yikes, I doubt anybody has manufactured these in the last 30 years. I have one, but don't want to get rid of it until I scrap all my old tapes. Jon From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 10:39:08 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 11:39:08 -0400 Subject: Tape Storage Rack WAS: RE: 1/2" tape storage. In-Reply-To: <5CACBAAB.60206@pico-systems.com> References: <020fcf33-c239-27a1-f437-25fdcb53db4c@bitsavers.org> <8ea49162-d54a-99d3-7a87-2034453b006a@sydex.com> <002401d4ee8d$85c86810$91593830$@net> <5CACBAAB.60206@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > Yikes, I doubt anybody has manufactured these in the last 30 > years. I have one, but don't want to get rid of it until I > scrap all my old tapes. They are not 100 percent authentic, but there are desktop wire file organizing racks that can hold tapes. -- Will From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Apr 9 10:41:18 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 11:41:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... Message-ID: <20190409154118.C4C9318C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Adrian Stoness > someones bid on them eh hopefully not a scraper Well, a scrapper would want to pay as little as possible, so anyone who wanted to actually save the system should be able to get it. There are a couple of bids on it, but the amounts are derisory. I hope Christian's museum can get it! Noel From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Tue Apr 9 11:03:50 2019 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2019 17:03:50 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: %20Storage%20for%201/2"%20open%20reel%20tape In-Reply-To: <5CACB9F8.8030401@pico-systems.com> References: <7aa01a15-e994-2161-aa97-b5d10ffef905@jlw.com> Message-ID: <01R5B3U53UOK8WXHXD@beyondthepale.ie> Jon Elson wrote: > On 04/08/2019 10:26 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > > whats with the weird tag on this thread? > > > > > %20 is an escaped form of the space character. Some mail > programs escape all control characters, or even anything > like {} ~. > Yes but "%20" is the form of escape intended for use with http, not for email. For email, it should be "=20" and if such escaped characters are included in a subject line, this is supposed to be indicated by the subject field starting with a sequence like "=?charset?Q?" to flag the use of what is called quoted printable encoding. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Apr 9 11:43:09 2019 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 11:43:09 -0500 Subject: Tape Storage Rack WAS: RE: 1/2" tape storage. In-Reply-To: References: <020fcf33-c239-27a1-f437-25fdcb53db4c@bitsavers.org> <8ea49162-d54a-99d3-7a87-2034453b006a@sydex.com> <002401d4ee8d$85c86810$91593830$@net> <5CACBAAB.60206@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <002601d4eef3$506e8170$f14b8450$@classiccmp.org> I have two of the authentic tape racks, the ones that held tapes by the snap closure on the flexible plastic ring. Both are about 65 to 70 inches tall. One is about 2 feet wide and I will be keeping that. The other is about 5 or 6 feet wide and should go to a good home. Both are in good condition. St. Louis, MO. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2019 10:39 AM To: Jon Elson ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Tape Storage Rack WAS: RE: 1/2" tape storage. > Yikes, I doubt anybody has manufactured these in the last 30 years. I > have one, but don't want to get rid of it until I scrap all my old > tapes. They are not 100 percent authentic, but there are desktop wire file organizing racks that can hold tapes. -- Will From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Apr 9 12:12:36 2019 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 10:12:36 -0700 Subject: Tape Storage Rack WAS: RE: 1/2" tape storage. In-Reply-To: <002601d4eef3$506e8170$f14b8450$@classiccmp.org> References: <020fcf33-c239-27a1-f437-25fdcb53db4c@bitsavers.org> <8ea49162-d54a-99d3-7a87-2034453b006a@sydex.com> <002401d4ee8d$85c86810$91593830$@net> <5CACBAAB.60206@pico-systems.com> <002601d4eef3$506e8170$f14b8450$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <006301d4eef7$6e4893d0$4ad9bb70$@net> > I have two of the authentic tape racks, the ones that held tapes by the > snap closure on the flexible plastic ring. Both are about 65 to 70 > inches tall. One is about 2 feet wide and I will be keeping that. The > other is about 5 or 6 feet wide and should go to a good home. Both are > in good condition. St. Louis, MO. Jay, For curiosity's sake can you post pictures of your racks? Both are way too big for me but I would like to see some pictures of authentic ones. I was thinking about getting the wire file holders (as others have suggested) but I have not found ones wide enough/sturdy enough to hold and support the weight of the tapes. Thanks. -Ali From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 9 17:40:50 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 15:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: %20Storage%20for%201/2"%20open%20reel%20tape In-Reply-To: <01R5B3U53UOK8WXHXD@beyondthepale.ie> References: <7aa01a15-e994-2161-aa97-b5d10ffef905@jlw.com> <01R5B3U53UOK8WXHXD@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: >>> whats with the weird tag on this thread? >> %20 is an escaped form of the space character. Some mail >> programs escape all control characters, or even anything >> like {} ~. On Tue, 9 Apr 2019, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > Yes but "%20" is the form of escape intended for use with http, not for email. > For email, it should be "=20" and if such escaped characters are included in a > subject line, this is supposed to be indicated by the subject field starting > with a sequence like "=?charset?Q?" to flag the use of what is called quoted > printable encoding. It's due to the use of "standardized" character encoding. ASCII, UTF-8, Unicode, . . . "Standards are wonderful; everybody can have a unique one of their own." I asked one of my classes to look up what "standard" means - one student came up with a definitive answer: apparently it is a flag on a tall pole. Any definitions having to do with conformation between systems are now deprecated. You mix that with an HTML browser program attempting to be an email client, . . . This particular sort of mess often occurs when somebody uses a character that isn't part of the basic set. The subject line mentioned half inch. SOME program "did a favor" for its user, and changed "1 / 2" to a single character for one half. And/or took the symmetrical character abreviation for inch, and changed that, since "OBVIOUSLY, left, right, and center double quote characters are not the same". From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 9 19:54:47 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 18:54:47 -0600 Subject: %20Storage%20for%201/2"%20open%20reel%20tape In-Reply-To: References: <7aa01a15-e994-2161-aa97-b5d10ffef905@jlw.com> <01R5B3U53UOK8WXHXD@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <938890b5-7bfe-d556-56d6-af24a7725c5f@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/9/2019 4:40 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > This particular sort of mess often occurs when somebody uses a character > that isn't part of the basic set. > The subject line mentioned half inch.? SOME program "did a favor" for > its user, and changed "1 / 2" to a single character for one half. > And/or took the symmetrical character abreviation for inch, and changed > that, since "OBVIOUSLY, left, right, and center double quote characters > are not the same". > Just like the *smart* fpga development program I am using. A gizillon stupid warnings and smart ass stuff like: "You using a D flop/flop with preset converting to inverted D flip/flop with clear." Yet at the same time don't even warn you if IT THINKS it can remove whole blocks of logic or warn about .CLK input to a D flip flop is missing. Testing a CPU with a small program ROM input, and it figured it could "remove"stuff. IR[3..2] is stuck at 0 and removing. ARG! Ben. PS: now the latest thing in HTML, spacing spaces to format your page to FIT our screen (not yours). From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Apr 9 22:23:34 2019 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 20:23:34 -0700 Subject: Not DEC related but still hoping for some help: Problems w/ LJ 4+ Printer In-Reply-To: <969ab7c7-8fc5-3aca-46f9-a9537a324242@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <008101d4e98e$22207f90$66617eb0$@net> <6dd90e33-856e-8f93-9ac4-8b7f080e5fa8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <009d01d4e9a2$4cc17e70$e6447b50$@net> <969ab7c7-8fc5-3aca-46f9-a9537a324242@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <004e01d4ef4c$c8fa8040$5aef80c0$@net> > > It sounds like the caps have not (yet) completely failed. > > I'd bet $10 on the HV supply being your problem. And you would be $10 richer now :D I just replaced the caps on the HV board ($5 worth of parts $7.99 for S&H :facepalm:) and it fired right up and started printing. None of the caps looked "bad". I don't have an ESR meter but when I tested the caps w/ my multimeter (outside of the circuit of course) only one seemed bad to my very rudimentary understanding. It was the big 25V 470uF cap. It never reached a resistance of infinity (which I believe a good cap will do). Not sure if this is a true indication of a bad cap or that my MM just couldn't charge the cap sufficiently. In either case it is now replaced w/ a 25V 470uF 125C Panasonic part. Thanks to everyone for the help. -Ali From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Apr 9 23:31:47 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 22:31:47 -0600 Subject: Not DEC related but still hoping for some help: Problems w/ LJ 4+ Printer In-Reply-To: <004e01d4ef4c$c8fa8040$5aef80c0$@net> References: <008101d4e98e$22207f90$66617eb0$@net> <6dd90e33-856e-8f93-9ac4-8b7f080e5fa8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <009d01d4e9a2$4cc17e70$e6447b50$@net> <969ab7c7-8fc5-3aca-46f9-a9537a324242@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <004e01d4ef4c$c8fa8040$5aef80c0$@net> Message-ID: On 4/9/19 9:23 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote: > And you would be $10 richer now :D > > I just replaced the caps on the HV board ($5 worth of parts $7.99 for S&H > :facepalm:) and it fired right up and started printing. None of the caps > looked "bad". I don't have an ESR meter but when I tested the caps w/ > my multimeter (outside of the circuit of course) only one seemed bad to > my very rudimentary understanding. It was the big 25V 470uF cap. It never > reached a resistance of infinity (which I believe a good cap will do). > Not sure if this is a true indication of a bad cap or that my MM just > couldn't charge the cap sufficiently. In either case it is now replaced w/ > a 25V 470uF 125C Panasonic part. > > Thanks to everyone for the help. Cool! I'm glad that you got it working. :-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From jlw at jlw.com Tue Apr 9 11:38:19 2019 From: jlw at jlw.com (Jeff Woolsey) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 09:38:19 -0700 Subject: Tape Storage Rack WAS: RE: 1/2" tape storage Message-ID: <3729b954-795e-57e3-c2b2-47764a913225@jlw.com> > While on the subject of tape storage anyone know if it is still possible to get desktop/table top wire bins to hold tapes in canisters and/or reels? Not that I have that many tapes or anything like that. This would be more for display purposes than anything else. > > Something akin to this: ibm51xx.classiccmp.org/CCTalkPics/taperack.png > > Do they still make things like this or do I have to find it at university junk sale? > > Those are exactly the "dish rack" things I have two of.? Of course, I can't remember where I got them. FWIW, I also have a small rack that holds, uh, 2x4x25 8mm data tapes in their cases.? Said "dish rack" won't fit on top, though. -- Jeff Woolsey {{woolsey,jlw}@jlw,first.last@{gmail,jlw}}.com Nature abhors straight antennas, clean lenses, and empty storage. "Delete! Delete! OK!" -Dr. Bronner on disk space management Card-sorting, Joel. -Crow on solitaire From gerardcjat at free.fr Wed Apr 10 03:38:00 2019 From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 10:38:00 +0200 Subject: Daisywhell typewriter emulating a TTY Message-ID: I would like to emulate a TTY, using a daisywheel typewriter. One immediately think : " Find an IBM Selectric, a Friden flexowriter or a like " But NO, I want something less complex, mechanical wise. That's why I want to investigate on daisywheel typewriters. I am aware of IBM Actionwriter and Triumph/Adler/Royal Gabriele 9009 that can be used as a printer with a dedicated interface BUT that is one way only : Printer only ! >From my investigation, **** so far ***, KEYBOARD does not send ( upload ? ) any signals. ( or a special command code is required ?? ) Any suggestion for "others" daisywhell typewriters that could do OR someone already went this way ? OR any documentation ( even user's manual ) on the dedicated interface : ( IF 600 Computer Interface for Triumph/Adler/Royal Gabriele 9009 ) ( ???name??? for IBM Actionwriter ) From gerardcjat at free.fr Wed Apr 10 03:38:00 2019 From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 10:38:00 +0200 Subject: Daisywhell typewriter emulating a TTY Message-ID: I would like to emulate a TTY, using a daisywheel typewriter. One immediately think : " Find an IBM Selectric, a Friden flexowriter or a like " But NO, I want something less complex, mechanical wise. That's why I want to investigate on daisywheel typewriters. I am aware of IBM Actionwriter and Triumph/Adler/Royal Gabriele 9009 that can be used as a printer with a dedicated interface BUT that is one way only : Printer only ! >From my investigation, **** so far ***, KEYBOARD does not send ( upload ? ) any signals. ( or a special command code is required ?? ) Any suggestion for "others" daisywhell typewriters that could do OR someone already went this way ? OR any documentation ( even user's manual ) on the dedicated interface : ( IF 600 Computer Interface for Triumph/Adler/Royal Gabriele 9009 ) ( ???name??? for IBM Actionwriter ) From steven at malikoff.com Wed Apr 10 03:51:56 2019 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 18:51:56 +1000 Subject: Daisywhell typewriter emulating a TTY In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <28417005596275b26171c1e1910cc7a4.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Gerard asked > I would like to emulate a TTY, using a daisywheel typewriter. > One immediately think : " Find an IBM Selectric, a Friden flexowriter or a like " > But NO, I want something less complex, mechanical wise. > That's why I want to investigate on daisywheel typewriters. > I am aware of IBM Actionwriter and Triumph/Adler/Royal Gabriele 9009 that can be used > as a printer with a dedicated interface BUT that is one way only : Printer only ! > From my investigation, **** so far ***, KEYBOARD does not send ( upload ? ) any signals. > ( or a special command code is required ?? ) > > Any suggestion for "others" daisywhell typewriters that could do > OR someone already went this way ? > OR any documentation ( even user's manual ) on the dedicated interface : > ( IF 600 Computer Interface for Triumph/Adler/Royal Gabriele 9009 ) > ( ???name??? for IBM Actionwriter ) How about https://hackaday.com/2017/01/14/vintage-ibm-daisywheel-prints-again-after-reverse-engineering/ Steve From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 03:56:49 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 09:56:49 +0100 Subject: Daisywhell typewriter emulating a TTY In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <08f801d4ef7b$55e1e330$01a5a990$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of GerardCJAT via > cctalk > Sent: 10 April 2019 09:38 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org; cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Daisywhell typewriter emulating a TTY > > I would like to emulate a TTY, using a daisywheel typewriter. > One immediately think : " Find an IBM Selectric, a Friden flexowriter or a like " > But NO, I want something less complex, mechanical wise. > That's why I want to investigate on daisywheel typewriters. > I am aware of IBM Actionwriter and Triumph/Adler/Royal Gabriele 9009 that > can be used as a printer with a dedicated interface BUT that is one way only : > Printer only ! > From my investigation, **** so far ***, KEYBOARD does not send ( upload ? > ) any signals. > ( or a special command code is required ?? ) > > Any suggestion for "others" daisywhell typewriters that could do OR > someone already went this way ? > OR any documentation ( even user's manual ) on the dedicated interface : > ( IF 600 Computer Interface for Triumph/Adler/Royal Gabriele 9009 ) ( > ???name??? for IBM Actionwriter ) Try googling IBM Wheelwriter. Certainly these have been used as printers. For a key board get a model M and an Arduino.... .. or even a DEC LK401 as that's already a serial keyboard... Dave From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Apr 10 10:16:03 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 10:16:03 -0500 Subject: Daisywhell typewriter emulating a TTY In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5CAE08B3.1020401@pico-systems.com> On 04/10/2019 03:38 AM, GerardCJAT via cctalk wrote: > I would like to emulate a TTY, using a daisywheel typewriter. > Well, there are Qume and Diablo. Diablo was bought by Xerox, so some of them carry that label. Most of the stand-alone versions had serial (RS-232) ASCII interface. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 10 10:39:07 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 08:39:07 -0700 Subject: Daisywhell typewriter emulating a TTY In-Reply-To: <5CAE08B3.1020401@pico-systems.com> References: <5CAE08B3.1020401@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <7fded784-60ca-324e-8d66-1f123ba66159@sydex.com> On 4/10/19 8:16 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 04/10/2019 03:38 AM, GerardCJAT via cctalk wrote: >> I would like to emulate a TTY, using a daisywheel typewriter. >> > Well, there are Qume and Diablo.? Diablo was bought by Xerox, so some of > them carry that label. > Most of the stand-alone versions had serial (RS-232) ASCII interface. I've given a couple of the Diablo KSRs (that's what the Hitypes with the keyboard were known as). I didn't care for them much--no immediacy of sound and keypress--the two seem unrelated. Daisywheel printers are incredibly difficult to get rid of--nobody wants to pay shipping. I got rid of the last one by throwing in a complete system with it. Still have a NEC Spinwriter mouldering away. --Chuck From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Apr 10 11:24:48 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 16:24:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Daisywhell typewriter emulating a TTY References: <1010399634.1262881.1554913488822.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1010399634.1262881.1554913488822@mail.yahoo.com> I? remember? in '79? ?a? KSR? Diablo? was? ?the? dream? KSR? printing? terminal? and? ?cost? like? ?3? grand? Oh? how? we? used? to? dream of having one of these? back then! We? do have? one in the museum's? collection...? although? ?have not attempted to power up? to use. Ed# In a message dated 4/10/2019 8:40:58 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: On 4/10/19 8:16 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 04/10/2019 03:38 AM, GerardCJAT via cctalk wrote: >> I would like to emulate a TTY, using a daisywheel typewriter. >> > Well, there are Qume and Diablo.? Diablo was bought by Xerox, so some of > them carry that label. > Most of the stand-alone versions had serial (RS-232) ASCII interface. I've given a couple of the Diablo KSRs (that's what the Hitypes with the keyboard were known as).? I didn't care for them much--no immediacy of sound and keypress--the two seem unrelated. Daisywheel printers are incredibly difficult to get rid of--nobody wants to pay shipping.? I got rid of the last one by throwing in a complete system with it.? Still have a NEC Spinwriter mouldering away. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 10 11:56:22 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 09:56:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Daisywhell typewriter emulating a TTY In-Reply-To: <1010399634.1262881.1554913488822@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1010399634.1262881.1554913488822.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1010399634.1262881.1554913488822@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >>> I would like to emulate a TTY, using a daisywheel typewriter. >> Well, there are Qume and Diablo.? Diablo was bought by Xerox, so some of >> them carry that label. >> Most of the stand-alone versions had serial (RS-232) ASCII interface. > I've given a couple of the Diablo KSRs (that's what the Hitypes with the > keyboard were known as).? I didn't care for them much--no immediacy of > sound and keypress--the two seem unrelated. > Daisywheel printers are incredibly difficult to get rid of--nobody wants > to pay shipping.? I got rid of the last one by throwing in a complete > system with it.? Still have a NEC Spinwriter mouldering away. On Wed, 10 Apr 2019, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > I? remember? in '79? ?a? KSR? Diablo? was? ?the? dream? KSR? printing? terminal? and? ?cost? like? ?3? grand? Oh? how? we? used? to? dream of having one of these? back then! > We? do have? one in the museum's? collection...? although? ?have not attempted to power up? to use. My first computer printer was a DTC-300. Diablo HyType 1 KSR. Non-detachable stand. Given to me by a friend who I gave a car to. I created the manuscript for my Honda book on it. TRS80 model 1 with "Electric Pencil" I printed out drafts as 80 columns on 15" paper. Centered and double spaced for the editor, flush left for the illustator, who loved having a big chunk of space alongside to doodle in. Used to be able to get wide paper with both edge tear-offs, AND a tear-off to reduce to 8.5x11. One time, I got FOUR of them at John Craig's Computer Swap America. Bringing them home in a Honda Civic was "interesting". Always have a couple of skeins of rope in the trunk. Getting rid of them when I closed my office in 2001 was "interesting". But, a really great guy rescued me, and took truckloads of computer stuff that nobody else would. Thank you, Sellam! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 10 12:23:55 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 10:23:55 -0700 Subject: Daisywhell typewriter emulating a TTY In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <73d6738e-9ad1-a391-7749-487a376653df@bitsavers.org> On 4/10/19 1:38 AM, GerardCJAT via cctalk wrote: > I would like to emulate a TTY, using a daisywheel typewriter. The CHM "1620Jr" project has been using IBM Wheelwriter 1000s http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/IBM-1620-Jr-Status-2018_04_30.pdf From dave at babcock-family.org Wed Apr 10 11:54:30 2019 From: dave at babcock-family.org (Dave Babcock) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 09:54:30 -0700 Subject: Daisywhell typewriter emulating a TTY In-Reply-To: <1010399634.1262881.1554913488822@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1010399634.1262881.1554913488822.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1010399634.1262881.1554913488822@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3117bbc9-9d06-313f-3513-164d946281ef@babcock-family.org> To all, The Computer History Museum's IBM 1620 Jr. project has already done this.? We have converted an IBM Wheelwriter 1000 electric typewriter into a computer terminal.? The conversion consists of a custom PCB with an Arduino Teensy 3.5 microcontroller which is physically installed in the typewriter, electrically in-between the keyboard and typewriter motherboard, with custom firmware. The initial work was to create a robust substitute for the IBM 1620's console typewriter.? However, software changes are being completed this month to extend it into a general-purpose, easily-adapted, ASCII teleprinter. We demoed the device as part of our VCF West display last August at which we took 1st Place in Best of Show and 2nd Place in Restorations/Replicas. We will be making all of our design files, software, and documentation available free to the classic computer community. To whet your appetite, here's the step-by-step, illustrated guide for the physical conversion of the typewriter: https://github.com/IBM-1620/Junior/raw/master/docs/wheelwriter-adaptation-instructions.pdf We'll be posting a formal announcement of this device within a few months. This work has been done by Joe Fredrick, Steve Casner, and myself. Thanks, Dave On 4/10/2019 9:24 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > I? remember? in '79? ?a? KSR? Diablo? was? ?the? dream? KSR? printing? terminal? and? ?cost? like? ?3? grand? Oh? how? we? used? to? dream of having one of these? back then! > > We? do have? one in the museum's? collection...? although? ?have not attempted to power up? to use. > Ed# > > In a message dated 4/10/2019 8:40:58 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > On 4/10/19 8:16 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >> On 04/10/2019 03:38 AM, GerardCJAT via cctalk wrote: >>> I would like to emulate a TTY, using a daisywheel typewriter. >>> >> Well, there are Qume and Diablo.? Diablo was bought by Xerox, so some of >> them carry that label. >> Most of the stand-alone versions had serial (RS-232) ASCII interface. > I've given a couple of the Diablo KSRs (that's what the Hitypes with the > keyboard were known as).? I didn't care for them much--no immediacy of > sound and keypress--the two seem unrelated. > > Daisywheel printers are incredibly difficult to get rid of--nobody wants > to pay shipping.? I got rid of the last one by throwing in a complete > system with it.? Still have a NEC Spinwriter mouldering away. > > --Chuck > > > From dave at babcock-family.org Wed Apr 10 12:35:57 2019 From: dave at babcock-family.org (Dave Babcock) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 10:35:57 -0700 Subject: Daisywhell typewriter emulating a TTY In-Reply-To: <3117bbc9-9d06-313f-3513-164d946281ef@babcock-family.org> References: <3117bbc9-9d06-313f-3513-164d946281ef@babcock-family.org> Message-ID: To all, The Computer History Museum's IBM 1620 Jr. project has already done this.? We have converted an IBM Wheelwriter 1000 electric typewriter into a computer terminal.? The conversion consists of a custom PCB with an Arduino Teensy 3.5 microcontroller which is physically installed in the typewriter, electrically in-between the keyboard and typewriter motherboard, with custom firmware. The initial work was to create a robust substitute for the IBM 1620's console typewriter.? However, software changes are being completed this month to extend it into a general-purpose, easily-adapted, ASCII teleprinter. We demoed the device as part of our VCF West display last August at which we took 1st Place in Best of Show and 2nd Place in Restorations/Replicas. We will be making all of our design files, software, and documentation available free to the classic computer community. To whet your appetite, here's the step-by-step, illustrated guide for the physical conversion of the typewriter: https://github.com/IBM-1620/Junior/raw/master/docs/wheelwriter-adaptation-instructions.pdf We'll be posting a formal announcement of this device within a few months. This work has been done by Joe Fredrick, Steve Casner, and myself. Thanks, Dave On 4/10/2019 9:24 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > I? remember? in '79? ?a? KSR? Diablo? was ?the? dream? KSR? printing? > terminal? and? ?cost? like? ?3 grand? Oh? how? we? used? to? dream of > having one of these? back then! > > We? do have? one in the museum's? collection...? although? ?have not > attempted to power up? to use. > Ed# > > In a message dated 4/10/2019 8:40:58 AM US Mountain Standard Time, > cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > On 4/10/19 8:16 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >> On 04/10/2019 03:38 AM, GerardCJAT via cctalk wrote: >>> I would like to emulate a TTY, using a daisywheel typewriter. >>> >> Well, there are Qume and Diablo.? Diablo was bought by Xerox, so some of >> them carry that label. >> Most of the stand-alone versions had serial (RS-232) ASCII interface. > I've given a couple of the Diablo KSRs (that's what the Hitypes with the > keyboard were known as).? I didn't care for them much--no immediacy of > sound and keypress--the two seem unrelated. > > Daisywheel printers are incredibly difficult to get rid of--nobody wants > to pay shipping.? I got rid of the last one by throwing in a complete > system with it.? Still have a NEC Spinwriter mouldering away. > > --Chuck > > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 10 12:56:18 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 10:56:18 -0700 Subject: Daisywhell typewriter emulating a TTY In-Reply-To: References: <3117bbc9-9d06-313f-3513-164d946281ef@babcock-family.org> Message-ID: <28fcdebe-8400-9ad2-d856-839d241c8dfa@sydex.com> On 4/10/19 10:35 AM, Dave Babcock via cctech wrote: > To all, > > The Computer History Museum's IBM 1620 Jr. project has already done > this.? We have converted an IBM Wheelwriter 1000 electric typewriter > into a computer terminal.? The conversion consists of a custom PCB with > an Arduino Teensy 3.5 microcontroller which is physically installed in > the typewriter, electrically in-between the keyboard and typewriter > motherboard, with custom firmware. Aw, that's too bad! The original Model I (CADET) 1620 had a console typewriter (was it based on the IBM Model B electric?) that gyrated enough, particularly on carriage returns, that made you wonder if it was going to fly to pieces at any time. It was all part of the experience. What did you do about the 1620-specific keys? I don't think that record mark or R-S was a keytop legend ona Weheelwriter... --Chuck From dave at babcock-family.org Wed Apr 10 13:14:40 2019 From: dave at babcock-family.org (Dave Babcock) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 11:14:40 -0700 Subject: Daisywhell typewriter emulating a TTY In-Reply-To: <28fcdebe-8400-9ad2-d856-839d241c8dfa@sydex.com> References: <3117bbc9-9d06-313f-3513-164d946281ef@babcock-family.org> <28fcdebe-8400-9ad2-d856-839d241c8dfa@sydex.com> Message-ID: Chuck, True, the 1620 Model 1 Model B typewriter (1st gen).? The 1620 Model 2 used a Selectric (2nd gen).? We're using the 3rd generation IBM electric typewriter (Wheelwriter) with the 1620 Jr. (3rd gen 1620?).? [I know it's a stretch.] The issue is that for Jr. we needed a reliable, robust, very low maintenance device.? The IBM 1620 Jr. will be used by the CHM Education Department and needs to stand up to hands-on use without needed difficult & expensive maintenance. Here's the keyboard of our Wheelwriter-based IBM 1620 Jr. Console Typewriter: And here is the printed output: Note the slashed zero, flagged digits, and all of the 1620 special characters.?? :-) Thanks, Dave On 4/10/2019 10:56 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote: > On 4/10/19 10:35 AM, Dave Babcock via cctech wrote: >> To all, >> >> The Computer History Museum's IBM 1620 Jr. project has already done >> this.? We have converted an IBM Wheelwriter 1000 electric typewriter >> into a computer terminal.? The conversion consists of a custom PCB with >> an Arduino Teensy 3.5 microcontroller which is physically installed in >> the typewriter, electrically in-between the keyboard and typewriter >> motherboard, with custom firmware. > > Aw, that's too bad! The original Model I (CADET) 1620 had a console > typewriter (was it based on the IBM Model B electric?) that gyrated > enough, particularly on carriage returns, that made you wonder if it was > going to fly to pieces at any time. It was all part of the experience. > > What did you do about the 1620-specific keys? I don't think that record > mark or R-S was a keytop legend ona Weheelwriter... > > --Chuck > > > From dave at babcock-family.org Wed Apr 10 13:14:40 2019 From: dave at babcock-family.org (Dave Babcock) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 11:14:40 -0700 Subject: Daisywhell typewriter emulating a TTY In-Reply-To: <28fcdebe-8400-9ad2-d856-839d241c8dfa@sydex.com> References: <3117bbc9-9d06-313f-3513-164d946281ef@babcock-family.org> <28fcdebe-8400-9ad2-d856-839d241c8dfa@sydex.com> Message-ID: Chuck, True, the 1620 Model 1 Model B typewriter (1st gen).? The 1620 Model 2 used a Selectric (2nd gen).? We're using the 3rd generation IBM electric typewriter (Wheelwriter) with the 1620 Jr. (3rd gen 1620?).? [I know it's a stretch.] The issue is that for Jr. we needed a reliable, robust, very low maintenance device.? The IBM 1620 Jr. will be used by the CHM Education Department and needs to stand up to hands-on use without needed difficult & expensive maintenance. Here's the keyboard of our Wheelwriter-based IBM 1620 Jr. Console Typewriter: And here is the printed output: Note the slashed zero, flagged digits, and all of the 1620 special characters.?? :-) Thanks, Dave On 4/10/2019 10:56 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote: > On 4/10/19 10:35 AM, Dave Babcock via cctech wrote: >> To all, >> >> The Computer History Museum's IBM 1620 Jr. project has already done >> this.? We have converted an IBM Wheelwriter 1000 electric typewriter >> into a computer terminal.? The conversion consists of a custom PCB with >> an Arduino Teensy 3.5 microcontroller which is physically installed in >> the typewriter, electrically in-between the keyboard and typewriter >> motherboard, with custom firmware. > > Aw, that's too bad! The original Model I (CADET) 1620 had a console > typewriter (was it based on the IBM Model B electric?) that gyrated > enough, particularly on carriage returns, that made you wonder if it was > going to fly to pieces at any time. It was all part of the experience. > > What did you do about the 1620-specific keys? I don't think that record > mark or R-S was a keytop legend ona Weheelwriter... > > --Chuck > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 10 13:29:23 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 11:29:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Daisywhell typewriter emulating a TTY In-Reply-To: <28fcdebe-8400-9ad2-d856-839d241c8dfa@sydex.com> References: <3117bbc9-9d06-313f-3513-164d946281ef@babcock-family.org> <28fcdebe-8400-9ad2-d856-839d241c8dfa@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Apr 2019, Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote: > Aw, that's too bad! The original Model I (CADET) 1620 had a console > typewriter (was it based on the IBM Model B electric?) that gyrated > enough, particularly on carriage returns, that made you wonder if it was > going to fly to pieces at any time. It was all part of the experience. Immaculately maintained equipment, such as at the CHM, also doesn't have the burnt oil smell that used to be associated with real world EAM. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 10 13:38:50 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 11:38:50 -0700 Subject: Daisywhell typewriter emulating a TTY In-Reply-To: References: <3117bbc9-9d06-313f-3513-164d946281ef@babcock-family.org> <28fcdebe-8400-9ad2-d856-839d241c8dfa@sydex.com> Message-ID: <76fcdfa6-6ae5-a13c-3f45-c5309b5c62a7@sydex.com> On 4/10/19 11:29 AM, Fred Cisin via cctech wrote: > On Wed, 10 Apr 2019, Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote: >> Aw, that's too bad!? The original Model I (CADET) 1620 had a console >> typewriter (was it based on the IBM Model B electric?) that gyrated >> enough, particularly on carriage returns, that made you wonder if it was >> going to fly to pieces at any time.? It was all part of the experience. > > Immaculately maintained equipment, such as at the CHM, also doesn't have > the burnt oil smell that used to be associated with real world EAM. Or the grime--such as replacing a shredded ribbon on a line printer. Or roaches and mice under the raised floor... --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 10 13:53:44 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 11:53:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Daisywhell typewriter emulating a TTY In-Reply-To: References: <3117bbc9-9d06-313f-3513-164d946281ef@babcock-family.org> <28fcdebe-8400-9ad2-d856-839d241c8dfa@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Apr 2019, Dave Babcock via cctalk wrote: > The issue is that for Jr. we needed a reliable, robust, very low maintenance > device.? The IBM 1620 Jr. will be used by the CHM Education Department and > needs to stand up to hands-on use without needed difficult & expensive > maintenance. So, . . . not fully replicating the original real experience. :-) From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 10 13:56:44 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 11:56:44 -0700 Subject: Daisywhell typewriter emulating a TTY In-Reply-To: References: <3117bbc9-9d06-313f-3513-164d946281ef@babcock-family.org> <28fcdebe-8400-9ad2-d856-839d241c8dfa@sydex.com> Message-ID: Dave, I'd love to see the keyboard and printed output; unfortunately, the listserv strips out anything but test. Got a link? --Chuck On 4/10/19 11:14 AM, Dave Babcock via cctalk wrote: > Chuck, > > True, the 1620 Model 1 Model B typewriter (1st gen).? The 1620 Model 2 > used a Selectric (2nd gen).? We're using the 3rd generation IBM electric > typewriter (Wheelwriter) with the 1620 Jr. (3rd gen 1620?).? [I know > it's a stretch.] > > The issue is that for Jr. we needed a reliable, robust, very low > maintenance device.? The IBM 1620 Jr. will be used by the CHM Education > Department and needs to stand up to hands-on use without needed > difficult & expensive maintenance. > > Here's the keyboard of our Wheelwriter-based IBM 1620 Jr. Console > Typewriter: > > And here is the printed output: > Note the slashed zero, flagged digits, and all of the 1620 special > characters.?? :-) > > Thanks, > Dave > > > On 4/10/2019 10:56 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote: >> On 4/10/19 10:35 AM, Dave Babcock via cctech wrote: >>> To all, >>> >>> The Computer History Museum's IBM 1620 Jr. project has already done >>> this.? We have converted an IBM Wheelwriter 1000 electric typewriter >>> into a computer terminal.? The conversion consists of a custom PCB with >>> an Arduino Teensy 3.5 microcontroller which is physically installed in >>> the typewriter, electrically in-between the keyboard and typewriter >>> motherboard, with custom firmware. >> >> Aw, that's too bad!? The original Model I (CADET) 1620 had a console >> typewriter (was it based on the IBM Model B electric?) that gyrated >> enough, particularly on carriage returns, that made you wonder if it was >> going to fly to pieces at any time.? It was all part of the experience. >> >> What did you do about the 1620-specific keys?? I don't think that record >> mark or R-S was a keytop legend ona Weheelwriter... >> >> --Chuck >> >> >> > -- --Chuck Sent from my digital computer From pat at vax11.net Wed Apr 10 15:50:04 2019 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 16:50:04 -0400 Subject: TeleVideo's MmmOST Message-ID: I've been adding a few more blog posts, and put up the first one on what (to me) makes TeleVideo actually interesting - their MmmOST client/server operating system. I hope to get more up soon, but I have a (somewhat lengthy) introduction based on what I've been able to learn about MmmOST: https://worldofvax.blogspot.com/2019/04/televideo-systems-part-v-mmmost.html I'm still looking for TS-800A's and TS-806/816's if anyone has some laying around. It'd be informative to get a real MmmOST service processor up and running. Pat From mark at markesystems.com Wed Apr 10 16:11:51 2019 From: mark at markesystems.com (mark at markesystems.com) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 14:11:51 -0700 Subject: Daisywhell typewriter emulating a TTY In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/10/19 8:16 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 04/10/2019 03:38 AM, GerardCJAT via cctalk wrote: >> I would like to emulate a TTY, using a daisywheel typewriter. >> > Well, there are Qume and Diablo.? Diablo was bought by Xerox, so some of > them carry that label. > Most of the stand-alone versions had serial (RS-232) ASCII interface. The Diablo was the first one I thought of. I had one for some time, and it was very reliable and produced high quality output. Also much faster than the Teletype, and faster also than the TermiNet 300 I had at the same time. There's currently one on eBay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/263756218024 ~~ Mark Moulding From w2hx at w2hx.com Wed Apr 10 16:58:12 2019 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 21:58:12 +0000 Subject: TeleVideo's MmmOST In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1554933492052.91332@w2hx.com> fascinatingly advanced for 1981. ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Patrick Finnegan via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2019 4:50 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: TeleVideo's MmmOST I've been adding a few more blog posts, and put up the first one on what (to me) makes TeleVideo actually interesting - their MmmOST client/server operating system. I hope to get more up soon, but I have a (somewhat lengthy) introduction based on what I've been able to learn about MmmOST: https://worldofvax.blogspot.com/2019/04/televideo-systems-part-v-mmmost.html I'm still looking for TS-800A's and TS-806/816's if anyone has some laying around. It'd be informative to get a real MmmOST service processor up and running. Pat From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 10 17:10:31 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 15:10:31 -0700 Subject: Daisywhell typewriter emulating a TTY In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8be95bb9-efae-41c3-2dc7-9950ac06eade@sydex.com> On 4/10/19 2:11 PM, Mark Moulding via cctalk wrote: > The Diablo was the first one I thought of.? I had one for some time, and > it was very reliable and produced high quality output.? Also much faster > than the Teletype, and faster also than the TermiNet 300 I had at the > same time. There's currently one on eBay: > https://www.ebay.com/itm/263756218024 I believe that both Qume and NEC also offered KSRs. --Chuck From dave at babcock-family.org Thu Apr 11 00:10:48 2019 From: dave at babcock-family.org (Dave Babcock) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 22:10:48 -0700 Subject: Daisywhell typewriter emulating a TTY In-Reply-To: References: <3117bbc9-9d06-313f-3513-164d946281ef@babcock-family.org> <28fcdebe-8400-9ad2-d856-839d241c8dfa@sydex.com> Message-ID: Sorry about the missing photos. Here's the keyboard: https://www.dropbox.com/s/oyxdpwi2mzz4kek/custom-keyboard.jpg?dl=0 Here's the printed output: https://www.dropbox.com/s/fb7lzrlzygnnvhl/Console_Typewriter_Output.png?dl=0 Thanks, Dave On 4/10/2019 11:56 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Dave, > > I'd love to see the keyboard and printed output; unfortunately, the > listserv strips out anything but test. Got a link? > > --Chuck > > > On 4/10/19 11:14 AM, Dave Babcock via cctalk wrote: >> Chuck, >> >> True, the 1620 Model 1 Model B typewriter (1st gen).? The 1620 Model 2 >> used a Selectric (2nd gen).? We're using the 3rd generation IBM electric >> typewriter (Wheelwriter) with the 1620 Jr. (3rd gen 1620?).? [I know >> it's a stretch.] >> >> The issue is that for Jr. we needed a reliable, robust, very low >> maintenance device.? The IBM 1620 Jr. will be used by the CHM Education >> Department and needs to stand up to hands-on use without needed >> difficult & expensive maintenance. >> >> Here's the keyboard of our Wheelwriter-based IBM 1620 Jr. Console >> Typewriter: >> >> And here is the printed output: >> Note the slashed zero, flagged digits, and all of the 1620 special >> characters.?? :-) >> >> Thanks, >> Dave >> >> >> On 4/10/2019 10:56 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote: >>> On 4/10/19 10:35 AM, Dave Babcock via cctech wrote: >>>> To all, >>>> >>>> The Computer History Museum's IBM 1620 Jr. project has already done >>>> this.? We have converted an IBM Wheelwriter 1000 electric typewriter >>>> into a computer terminal.? The conversion consists of a custom PCB with >>>> an Arduino Teensy 3.5 microcontroller which is physically installed in >>>> the typewriter, electrically in-between the keyboard and typewriter >>>> motherboard, with custom firmware. >>> Aw, that's too bad!? The original Model I (CADET) 1620 had a console >>> typewriter (was it based on the IBM Model B electric?) that gyrated >>> enough, particularly on carriage returns, that made you wonder if it was >>> going to fly to pieces at any time.? It was all part of the experience. >>> >>> What did you do about the 1620-specific keys?? I don't think that record >>> mark or R-S was a keytop legend ona Weheelwriter... >>> >>> --Chuck >>> >>> >>> > From dave at babcock-family.org Thu Apr 11 00:10:48 2019 From: dave at babcock-family.org (Dave Babcock) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 22:10:48 -0700 Subject: Daisywhell typewriter emulating a TTY In-Reply-To: References: <3117bbc9-9d06-313f-3513-164d946281ef@babcock-family.org> <28fcdebe-8400-9ad2-d856-839d241c8dfa@sydex.com> Message-ID: Sorry about the missing photos. Here's the keyboard: https://www.dropbox.com/s/oyxdpwi2mzz4kek/custom-keyboard.jpg?dl=0 Here's the printed output: https://www.dropbox.com/s/fb7lzrlzygnnvhl/Console_Typewriter_Output.png?dl=0 Thanks, Dave On 4/10/2019 11:56 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Dave, > > I'd love to see the keyboard and printed output; unfortunately, the > listserv strips out anything but test. Got a link? > > --Chuck > > > On 4/10/19 11:14 AM, Dave Babcock via cctalk wrote: >> Chuck, >> >> True, the 1620 Model 1 Model B typewriter (1st gen).? The 1620 Model 2 >> used a Selectric (2nd gen).? We're using the 3rd generation IBM electric >> typewriter (Wheelwriter) with the 1620 Jr. (3rd gen 1620?).? [I know >> it's a stretch.] >> >> The issue is that for Jr. we needed a reliable, robust, very low >> maintenance device.? The IBM 1620 Jr. will be used by the CHM Education >> Department and needs to stand up to hands-on use without needed >> difficult & expensive maintenance. >> >> Here's the keyboard of our Wheelwriter-based IBM 1620 Jr. Console >> Typewriter: >> >> And here is the printed output: >> Note the slashed zero, flagged digits, and all of the 1620 special >> characters.?? :-) >> >> Thanks, >> Dave >> >> >> On 4/10/2019 10:56 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote: >>> On 4/10/19 10:35 AM, Dave Babcock via cctech wrote: >>>> To all, >>>> >>>> The Computer History Museum's IBM 1620 Jr. project has already done >>>> this.? We have converted an IBM Wheelwriter 1000 electric typewriter >>>> into a computer terminal.? The conversion consists of a custom PCB with >>>> an Arduino Teensy 3.5 microcontroller which is physically installed in >>>> the typewriter, electrically in-between the keyboard and typewriter >>>> motherboard, with custom firmware. >>> Aw, that's too bad!? The original Model I (CADET) 1620 had a console >>> typewriter (was it based on the IBM Model B electric?) that gyrated >>> enough, particularly on carriage returns, that made you wonder if it was >>> going to fly to pieces at any time.? It was all part of the experience. >>> >>> What did you do about the 1620-specific keys?? I don't think that record >>> mark or R-S was a keytop legend ona Weheelwriter... >>> >>> --Chuck >>> >>> >>> > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 11 00:49:58 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 22:49:58 -0700 Subject: Daisywhell typewriter emulating a TTY In-Reply-To: References: <3117bbc9-9d06-313f-3513-164d946281ef@babcock-family.org> <28fcdebe-8400-9ad2-d856-839d241c8dfa@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1db9b733-ca43-1066-5007-db540122a9aa@sydex.com> Thanks, Dave. Was the group mark on the Model 2 typewriter keyboard? I don't recall it from the CADET. It was associated with the 1311 disk option anyway. How does one print a flagged numeric blank? (the "dump numeric" instruction prints it)? Thanks, Chuck On 4/10/19 10:10 PM, Dave Babcock via cctalk wrote: > Sorry about the missing photos. > > Here's the keyboard: > https://www.dropbox.com/s/oyxdpwi2mzz4kek/custom-keyboard.jpg?dl=0 > > Here's the printed output: > https://www.dropbox.com/s/fb7lzrlzygnnvhl/Console_Typewriter_Output.png?dl=0 > > > Thanks, > Dave > > > On 4/10/2019 11:56 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> Dave, >> >> I'd love to see the keyboard and printed output; unfortunately, the >> listserv strips out anything but test.?? Got a link? >> >> --Chuck >> >> >> On 4/10/19 11:14 AM, Dave Babcock via cctalk wrote: >>> Chuck, >>> >>> True, the 1620 Model 1 Model B typewriter (1st gen).? The 1620 Model 2 >>> used a Selectric (2nd gen).? We're using the 3rd generation IBM electric >>> typewriter (Wheelwriter) with the 1620 Jr. (3rd gen 1620?).? [I know >>> it's a stretch.] >>> >>> The issue is that for Jr. we needed a reliable, robust, very low >>> maintenance device.? The IBM 1620 Jr. will be used by the CHM Education >>> Department and needs to stand up to hands-on use without needed >>> difficult & expensive maintenance. >>> >>> Here's the keyboard of our Wheelwriter-based IBM 1620 Jr. Console >>> Typewriter: >>> >>> And here is the printed output: >>> Note the slashed zero, flagged digits, and all of the 1620 special >>> characters.?? :-) >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Dave >>> > From james at attfield.co.uk Wed Apr 10 15:06:35 2019 From: james at attfield.co.uk (james) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 21:06:35 +0100 Subject: Daisywheel typewriter emulating a TTY Message-ID: <000101d4efd8$e6a3b5d0$b3eb2170$@attfield.co.uk> >> Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 10:38:00 +0200 >> From: "GerardCJAT" >> To: , >> >> I would like to emulate a TTY, using a daisywheel typewriter. >> One immediately think : " Find an IBM Selectric, a Friden flexowriter or a like " >> But NO, I want something less complex, mechanical wise. >> That's why I want to investigate on daisywheel typewriters. >> I am aware of IBM Actionwriter and Triumph/Adler/Royal Gabriele 9009 that can be used >> as a printer with a dedicated interface BUT that is one way only : Printer only ! >> From my investigation, **** so far ***, KEYBOARD does not send ( upload ? ) any signals. >> ( or a special command code is required ?? ) >> Any suggestion for "others" daisywhell typewriters that could do >> OR someone already went this way ? >> OR any documentation ( even user's manual ) on the dedicated interface : >> ( IF 600 Computer Interface for Triumph/Adler/Royal Gabriele 9009 ) >> ( ???name??? for IBM Actionwriter ) I immediately thought - any reason a Diablo 1650 wouldn't do? From pat at vax11.net Thu Apr 11 17:46:58 2019 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2019 18:46:58 -0400 Subject: TeleVideo's MmmOST In-Reply-To: <1554933492052.91332@w2hx.com> References: <1554933492052.91332@w2hx.com> Message-ID: And here's the technical bits -- a brain dump of a lot of what I learned from reverse engineering the protocol: https://worldofvax.blogspot.com/2019/04/televideo-systems-part-vi-mmmost.html Pat From w2hx at w2hx.com Thu Apr 11 19:50:22 2019 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 00:50:22 +0000 Subject: Fujitsi 2444AC 9-track tape drive/PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <4f1fc31d65a94f38a9bfee458f81a92f@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM>, Message-ID: <1555030227322.56954@w2hx.com> Question to owners of the 2444AC. I have been looking to acquire the Emulex QT13 but cannot find anything on ebay (I did miss one early on and wanted to kick myself). Anyone have one available for purchase? Second question. The cable that I need to make here. Can anyone confirm I need to female IDC connectors on each side? (the tape drive and the QT13 have male pins)? Thanks ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Glen Slick via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2019 12:40 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Fujitsi 2444AC 9-track tape drive/PDP-11 On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 8:35 PM W2HX via cctalk wrote: > > Now for some questions. > > 1. I've been told the QT13 is a very good card to interface here. I've been looking for a while on ebay without luck. I do see a QT14 on ebay right now at a good price, but I am not familiar with the "S" card business and what that means for use in a PDP-11 backplane. > > 2. Anyone have a QT13 for sale? Or based on my dec and unix interests, is there a better/recommended card? > > 3. Anyone have the 50 pin cables/connectors available? If not I feel confident I could make these up. But I thought I'd ask in case someone has a set getting in their way > A Fujitsu M2444AC in new condition is a great tape drive if you want to work with 9-track 1/2-inch tapes, and don't need 800BPI, and plan to use it with a host with a Pertec interface, and have the space to set it up and someone to help you move a 200 pound drive into place. You have to manually thread the tape when you load it, but I actually consider that a plus as it is one less thing to go wrong compared to an auto loading tape drive. I currently have a couple of them that I have used with Q-Bus systems. I agree with the recommendation to use an Emulex QT13 interface. That is what I have used in TMSCP mode to install 2.11BSD and RSTS/E 10.1 from tape on an 11/73 system. I also have one or more Dilog DQ130/132/140/142 Pertec interfaces (I forget what the models are, some don't have manuals on Bitsavers). Those aren't quite as friendly to set up and use as the QT13. I'd have to look and see how many QT13 cards I have. Probably more than two for the two M2444AC drives I have. I just built cables myself. I have a 3M Scotchflex 3640 press which makes it easy to press the IDC connectors on to the cable. I bought a full 100-foot roll of 3M 1700/50 or 3365/50 cable for a reasonable price on eBay. From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Apr 11 20:10:46 2019 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2019 18:10:46 -0700 Subject: Fujitsi 2444AC 9-track tape drive/PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <1555030227322.56954@w2hx.com> References: <4f1fc31d65a94f38a9bfee458f81a92f@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> <1555030227322.56954@w2hx.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 5:55 PM W2HX via cctalk wrote: > > Question to owners of the 2444AC. I have been looking to acquire the Emulex QT13 but cannot find anything on ebay (I did miss one early on and wanted to kick myself). Anyone have one available for purchase? > > Second question. The cable that I need to make here. Can anyone confirm I need to female IDC connectors on each side? (the tape drive and the QT13 have male pins)? > > Thanks That reminds me I need to check to see how many QT13 boards I currently have and see if I have one to spare. This picture shows the SUN configuration female D-shell connectors with ribbon cables running to the two 50-pin Pertec interface connectors on the cache controller board: http://w2hx.com/x/VintageComp/Fujitsu-2444AC/0306192310.jpg If you remove those 'A' and 'B' ribbon cables then you just need a pair of 50-pin cables with female IDC connectors on one side, and if you are using a QT13 then female IDC connectors on the other side as well. You need to check the connector pinout tables in the 2444AC manual against the QT13 manual to see which connector on the 2444AC goes to which connector on the QT13 so you don't get the cables crossed. I forget without checking the manuals myself. From pbirkel at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 00:04:42 2019 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 01:04:42 -0400 Subject: Control Console, but not PDP-10 Message-ID: <017701d4f0ed$3d7992c0$b86cb840$@gmail.com> The PDP-10 Control Console sold for $3,650.00. Amazing! Now consider a DSKY. Currently at $27,500.00. Auction estimate: $60,000+ Great provenance! ?The DSKY that saved Apollo 14.? https://www.rrauction.com/bidtracker_detail.cfm?IN=5222 ?Apollo 14 LM Simulator Computer Display and Keyboard (DSKY) from MIT Instrumentation Laboratory? Historically significant Apollo Guidance Computer Display and Keyboard (DSKY) unit from the MIT Instrumentation Laboratory, used by Don Eyles and Sam Drake to verify the software patch needed to avoid an abort during the Apollo 14 lunar landing sequence. The data entry and display device measures 8? x 8? x 6.5?, and has 19 keys and an electroluminescent digital display. The back of the unit retains its metal NASA parts tag which reads, ?Apollo G & N System, AGC DSKY Assy, Part No. 2003985-041, Serial No. RAY 26, NAS 9-497, Designed by M.I.T. Instrumentation Lab, Mfg. by Raytheon Co., " with yellow inspection stamps above. In fine condition. Accompanied by a detailed letter of provenance from the present owner, who was employed at the MIT Instrumentation Laboratory to design, build, and maintain the CM and LM cockpit simulators. He retained the DSKY in 1978 when the LM cockpit simulator was dismantled and discarded. The DSKY was the astronaut's interface to the Apollo Guidance Computer developed by MIT, and was critical to every aspect of the mission. Each program had a two-digit code and commands were entered as two-digit numbers in a verb-noun sequence. The device permitted the astronauts to collect and provide flight information necessary for the precise landings on the moon. It was the DSKY that provided the astronauts with critical burn times for engine firings, course corrections, trajectories, and other key calculations vital in getting a crew to and from the moon. The DSKY also reported the program alarm moments before the LM touched down on the lunar surface to land. During Apollo 14, a loose ball of solder floating inside the abort switch of the LM Antares caused an intermittent short circuit, threatening to accidentally activate the switch and rocket the module back into orbit during its landing sequence. In order to prevent that scenario, MIT computer programmer Don Eyles, a developer of the AGC's source code, was asked to hack his own software to find a workaround. This represented the most dramatic moment for MIT's programmers throughout the entire Apollo program, as they had just three to four hours to work out a fix, test it, and relay it to the astronauts in time for Powered Descent Initiation (PDI). Eyles accomplished his task in just two hours, developing a 26-command sequence to be entered into the DSKY that reprogrammed the AGC to ignore the abort button. The codes were relayed to Alan Shepard and Edgar Mitchell with ten minutes to spare, and the LM Antares successfully touched down on the lunar surface at 09:18:11 UTC on February 5, 1971. As the MIT DSKY used to verify the code that saved the Apollo 14 mission, this is an exceptionally important piece of space history. ----- From dr at birkel.org Fri Apr 12 00:02:10 2019 From: dr at birkel.org (Paul Birkel) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 05:02:10 +0000 Subject: Control Console, but not PDP-10 Message-ID: <016c01d4f0ec$e3a5a9a0$aaf0fce0$@birkel.org> The PDP-10 Control Console sold for $3,650.00. Amazing! Now consider a DSKY. Currently at $27,500.00. Auction estimate: $60,000+ Great provenance! ?The DSKY that saved Apollo 14.? https://www.rrauction.com/bidtracker_detail.cfm?IN=5222 ----- From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 00:59:02 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 01:59:02 -0400 Subject: Control Console, but not PDP-10 In-Reply-To: <016c01d4f0ec$e3a5a9a0$aaf0fce0$@birkel.org> References: <016c01d4f0ec$e3a5a9a0$aaf0fce0$@birkel.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 1:23 AM Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote: > Now consider a DSKY. Currently at $27,500.00. Auction estimate: $60,000+ I'd love to have a DSKY to fiddle around on, just for kicks, but my budget for a replica is a tiny fraction of that... -ethan From useddec at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 01:03:00 2019 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 01:03:00 -0500 Subject: Fujitsi 2444AC 9-track tape drive/PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <1555030227322.56954@w2hx.com> References: <4f1fc31d65a94f38a9bfee458f81a92f@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> <1555030227322.56954@w2hx.com> Message-ID: I should have a few, and will try to check this weekend. Paul On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 7:55 PM W2HX via cctalk wrote: > Question to owners of the 2444AC. I have been looking to acquire the > Emulex QT13 but cannot find anything on ebay (I did miss one early on and > wanted to kick myself). Anyone have one available for purchase? > > Second question. The cable that I need to make here. Can anyone confirm I > need to female IDC connectors on each side? (the tape drive and the QT13 > have male pins)? > > Thanks > > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Glen Slick via > cctalk > Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2019 12:40 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Fujitsi 2444AC 9-track tape drive/PDP-11 > > On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 8:35 PM W2HX via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Now for some questions. > > > > 1. I've been told the QT13 is a very good card to interface here. > I've been looking for a while on ebay without luck. I do see a QT14 on ebay > right now at a good price, but I am not familiar with the "S" card business > and what that means for use in a PDP-11 backplane. > > > > 2. Anyone have a QT13 for sale? Or based on my dec and unix > interests, is there a better/recommended card? > > > > 3. Anyone have the 50 pin cables/connectors available? If not I > feel confident I could make these up. But I thought I'd ask in case someone > has a set getting in their way > > > > A Fujitsu M2444AC in new condition is a great tape drive if you want > to work with 9-track 1/2-inch tapes, and don't need 800BPI, and plan > to use it with a host with a Pertec interface, and have the space to > set it up and someone to help you move a 200 pound drive into place. > You have to manually thread the tape when you load it, but I actually > consider that a plus as it is one less thing to go wrong compared to > an auto loading tape drive. > > I currently have a couple of them that I have used with Q-Bus systems. > I agree with the recommendation to use an Emulex QT13 interface. That > is what I have used in TMSCP mode to install 2.11BSD and RSTS/E 10.1 > from tape on an 11/73 system. I also have one or more Dilog > DQ130/132/140/142 Pertec interfaces (I forget what the models are, > some don't have manuals on Bitsavers). Those aren't quite as friendly > to set up and use as the QT13. > > I'd have to look and see how many QT13 cards I have. Probably more > than two for the two M2444AC drives I have. I just built cables > myself. I have a 3M Scotchflex 3640 press which makes it easy to press > the IDC connectors on to the cable. I bought a full 100-foot roll of > 3M 1700/50 or 3365/50 cable for a reasonable price on eBay. > From w2hx at w2hx.com Fri Apr 12 09:02:56 2019 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 14:02:56 +0000 Subject: Control Console, but not PDP-10 In-Reply-To: References: <016c01d4f0ec$e3a5a9a0$aaf0fce0$@birkel.org>, Message-ID: <1555077777695.93288@w2hx.com> And don't forget about the 25% buyer's premium! Wow ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Ethan Dicks via cctalk Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 1:59 AM To: Paul Birkel; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Control Console, but not PDP-10 On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 1:23 AM Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote: > Now consider a DSKY. Currently at $27,500.00. Auction estimate: $60,000+ I'd love to have a DSKY to fiddle around on, just for kicks, but my budget for a replica is a tiny fraction of that... -ethan From w2hx at w2hx.com Fri Apr 12 09:16:05 2019 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 14:16:05 +0000 Subject: Fujitsi 2444AC 9-track tape drive/PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <4f1fc31d65a94f38a9bfee458f81a92f@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> <1555030227322.56954@w2hx.com>, Message-ID: <1555078567239.50120@w2hx.com> Great, thank you to everyone! This is what I purchased... https://www.ebay.com/itm/171171330190 looks to be the right thing. I would have made it myself but I'd have to buy like 50 feet minimum of the ribbon plus connectors plus shipping plus my time. This seemed like a good compromise. ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Glen Slick via cctalk Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 9:10 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Fujitsi 2444AC 9-track tape drive/PDP-11 On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 5:55 PM W2HX via cctalk wrote: > > Question to owners of the 2444AC. I have been looking to acquire the Emulex QT13 but cannot find anything on ebay (I did miss one early on and wanted to kick myself). Anyone have one available for purchase? > > Second question. The cable that I need to make here. Can anyone confirm I need to female IDC connectors on each side? (the tape drive and the QT13 have male pins)? > > Thanks That reminds me I need to check to see how many QT13 boards I currently have and see if I have one to spare. This picture shows the SUN configuration female D-shell connectors with ribbon cables running to the two 50-pin Pertec interface connectors on the cache controller board: http://w2hx.com/x/VintageComp/Fujitsu-2444AC/0306192310.jpg If you remove those 'A' and 'B' ribbon cables then you just need a pair of 50-pin cables with female IDC connectors on one side, and if you are using a QT13 then female IDC connectors on the other side as well. You need to check the connector pinout tables in the 2444AC manual against the QT13 manual to see which connector on the 2444AC goes to which connector on the QT13 so you don't get the cables crossed. I forget without checking the manuals myself. From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Apr 12 11:45:47 2019 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 09:45:47 -0700 Subject: Control Console, but not PDP-10 In-Reply-To: References: <016c01d4f0ec$e3a5a9a0$aaf0fce0$@birkel.org> Message-ID: <12D707E5-EA88-4702-98BC-961050D717E1@shiresoft.com> You should talk to Carl as he?s created (or far along in the process) of a DSKY to interface to an actual AGC that?s being restored (there are a number of videos on-line of the restoration effort?mostly done by converting a hotel room into a lab). TTFN - Guy > On Apr 11, 2019, at 10:59 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 1:23 AM Paul Birkel via cctalk > wrote: >> Now consider a DSKY. Currently at $27,500.00. Auction estimate: $60,000+ > > I'd love to have a DSKY to fiddle around on, just for kicks, but my > budget for a replica is a tiny fraction of that... > > -ethan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Apr 12 12:01:36 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 17:01:36 +0000 Subject: Control Console, but not PDP-10 In-Reply-To: <12D707E5-EA88-4702-98BC-961050D717E1@shiresoft.com> References: <016c01d4f0ec$e3a5a9a0$aaf0fce0$@birkel.org> , <12D707E5-EA88-4702-98BC-961050D717E1@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: It is funny that the fellow that is selling the DSKY may not have the legal right to sell it. It may technically belong to the trash company that collected the rest of the stuff. I'm a trash scrounger myself but there are differences with stuff no one cares about and things of value. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 9:45 AM To: Ethan Dicks; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Paul Birkel Subject: Re: Control Console, but not PDP-10 You should talk to Carl as he?s created (or far along in the process) of a DSKY to interface to an actual AGC that?s being restored (there are a number of videos on-line of the restoration effort?mostly done by converting a hotel room into a lab). TTFN - Guy > On Apr 11, 2019, at 10:59 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 1:23 AM Paul Birkel via cctalk > wrote: >> Now consider a DSKY. Currently at $27,500.00. Auction estimate: $60,000+ > > I'd love to have a DSKY to fiddle around on, just for kicks, but my > budget for a replica is a tiny fraction of that... > > -ethan From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Apr 12 12:20:44 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 11:20:44 -0600 Subject: Control Console, but not PDP-10 In-Reply-To: References: <016c01d4f0ec$e3a5a9a0$aaf0fce0$@birkel.org> <12D707E5-EA88-4702-98BC-961050D717E1@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 11:01 AM dwight via cctalk wrote: > It is funny that the fellow that is selling the DSKY may not have the > legal right to sell it. It may technically belong to the trash company that > collected the rest of the stuff. > I'm a trash scrounger myself but there are differences with stuff no one > cares about and things of value. > It's likely more complicated than that given the amount of time that has passed. He may have had permission to retain it when the rest was dismantled, and title passes to the trash company once they remove the trash. Until then it's in a grey zone of semi-abandoned property with statutes of limitations for who may try to claw it back should some third party make off with it. This many years later, possession is more than 9/10th the law :) Warner > Dwight > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Guy Sotomayor > Jr via cctalk > Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 9:45 AM > To: Ethan Dicks; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: Paul Birkel > Subject: Re: Control Console, but not PDP-10 > > You should talk to Carl as he?s created (or far along in the process) of a > DSKY to interface to > an actual AGC that?s being restored (there are a number of videos on-line > of the restoration > effort?mostly done by converting a hotel room into a lab). > > TTFN - Guy > > > On Apr 11, 2019, at 10:59 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 1:23 AM Paul Birkel via cctalk > > wrote: > >> Now consider a DSKY. Currently at $27,500.00. Auction estimate: > $60,000+ > > > > I'd love to have a DSKY to fiddle around on, just for kicks, but my > > budget for a replica is a tiny fraction of that... > > > > -ethan > > From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 12:41:24 2019 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 12:41:24 -0500 Subject: Interesting article in Spectrum about IBM's System/360 Message-ID: <43b54f05-09f7-66b3-eb7a-c6d2125ff86b@gmail.com> Building the System/360 Mainframe Nearly Destroyed IBM https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-history/silicon-revolution/building-the-system360-mainframe-nearly-destroyed-ibm From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 13:15:53 2019 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 12:15:53 -0600 Subject: Interesting article in Spectrum about IBM's System/360 In-Reply-To: <43b54f05-09f7-66b3-eb7a-c6d2125ff86b@gmail.com> References: <43b54f05-09f7-66b3-eb7a-c6d2125ff86b@gmail.com> Message-ID: The article says: Poughkeepsie?s engineers were close to completing work on a set of four > computers known as the 8000s that were compatible with the 7000s. AFAICT, that is totally wrong. The 8000 series was completely INCOMPATIBLE with any of the 7000 series machines. In fact, most of the 7000 series machines weren't even compatible with each other, though the 7040 and 7044 had partial compatibility with the 7090 and 7094. There are some 8000 documents on Bitsavers so you can see for yourself. http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/8000/ Had the 8000 series in fact been compatible with the 7090/7094, I suspect that Bob Evans might not have recommended killing them, as part of the rationale for killing them was the fact that they weren't compatible with anything, but I think Bob still would have recommended that IBM develop a broad line of compatible computers (but mostly incompatible with 7094 and 8000) to replace them. I only met Bob once in 2004 at CHM, and only got to talk with him for a few minutes, so I could be entirely wrong. From bhilpert at shaw.ca Fri Apr 12 14:13:13 2019 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 12:13:13 -0700 Subject: AGC DSKY auction / was Re: Control Console, but not PDP-10 In-Reply-To: <017701d4f0ed$3d7992c0$b86cb840$@gmail.com> References: <017701d4f0ed$3d7992c0$b86cb840$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52038338-0396-4727-A853-E78E0FC53777@shaw.ca> On 2019-Apr-11, at 10:04 PM, Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote: > > Now consider a DSKY. Currently at $27,500.00. Auction estimate: $60,000+ > Great provenance! ?The DSKY that saved Apollo 14.? > > https://www.rrauction.com/bidtracker_detail.cfm?IN=5222 I looked up this auction too, after Marc mentioned it in his latest AGC restoration video. But while looking up the current auction, an earlier auction showed up. The same auction house sold a DSKY in 2011 for 93K$. https://www.rrauction.com/past_auction_item.cfm?ID=3242600 (That 93K$ includes the buyer's premium, so the hammer price was presumably 74K$, for comparing to the current auction.) My sense is awareness of the AGC has gone up in the intervening years, so this sale will be interesting. I guess one could debate which one has a more 'valuable' provenance. One can only speculate what an entire AGC would go for. From cctalk at snarc.net Fri Apr 12 12:52:05 2019 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 13:52:05 -0400 Subject: Interesting article in Spectrum about IBM's System/360 In-Reply-To: <43b54f05-09f7-66b3-eb7a-c6d2125ff86b@gmail.com> References: <43b54f05-09f7-66b3-eb7a-c6d2125ff86b@gmail.com> Message-ID: <436b281d-4eb9-a69e-9e8a-f36b2342ae6f@snarc.net> > Building the System/360 Mainframe Nearly Destroyed IBM > > https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-history/silicon-revolution/building-the-system360-mainframe-nearly-destroyed-ibm > It's an excerpt from a new book. I know the author. Very nice and smart guy who spent several decades at IBM. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 12 16:14:21 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 14:14:21 -0700 Subject: Interesting article in Spectrum about IBM's System/360 In-Reply-To: References: <43b54f05-09f7-66b3-eb7a-c6d2125ff86b@gmail.com> Message-ID: <457b7d40-839f-0ce9-215a-8404eebe9f65@sydex.com> On 4/12/19 11:15 AM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > The article says: > > Poughkeepsie?s engineers were close to completing work on a set of four >> computers known as the 8000s that were compatible with the 7000s. > My tendency has been to consider 7000 xeries machines as transistorized 700 series. Certainly that applies in the case of the 7090. --Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Apr 12 22:20:13 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 22:20:13 -0500 Subject: Interesting article in Spectrum about IBM's System/360 In-Reply-To: <43b54f05-09f7-66b3-eb7a-c6d2125ff86b@gmail.com> References: <43b54f05-09f7-66b3-eb7a-c6d2125ff86b@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5CB1556D.7040300@pico-systems.com> On 04/12/2019 12:41 PM, Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk wrote: > Building the System/360 Mainframe Nearly Destroyed IBM > > https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-history/silicon-revolution/building-the-system360-mainframe-nearly-destroyed-ibm > > > > Yup, they bet the company on a new product. it was a VERY well thought-out bet, but still a big reach. One area they really made a mistake on was software. They designed a really ambitious OS (OS/360 MFT) and then an even more ambitious version (OS/360 MVT) on a poorly thought-out timeline. Fred Brooks actually had a nervous breakdown over it, and maybe some other guys, too. Fred Brooks' "The mythical man month" is just too short, and doesn't have enough actual anecdotes, but is a good read anyway. At the time he wrote it, there were probably a bunch of stories that he couldn't yet tell. Also, the hardware was a huge leap. IBM went from building computers with all purchased components on single-sided paper-phenolic PC boards to making their own transistors and diodes and packaging them on little ceramic hybrid modules, and then putting those on 4-layer PC boards. They pioneered a LOT of packaging technology on the 360. The developed flip-chip bump-bonding of semiconductors, and were doing this almost 20 years before anybody else were doing this. But, of course, there would be growing pains with such development. The entire state of New York was a bustling beehive of computer manufacturing. They made disk and tape drives, printers, hand-assembled close to 20,000 mainframe CPUs plus all the controllers and memory, between 1965 and 1969. Totally mind boggling! Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Apr 12 22:26:14 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 22:26:14 -0500 Subject: Interesting article in Spectrum about IBM's System/360 In-Reply-To: <457b7d40-839f-0ce9-215a-8404eebe9f65@sydex.com> References: <43b54f05-09f7-66b3-eb7a-c6d2125ff86b@gmail.com> <457b7d40-839f-0ce9-215a-8404eebe9f65@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5CB156D6.7070203@pico-systems.com> On 04/12/2019 04:14 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 4/12/19 11:15 AM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: >> The article says: >> >> Poughkeepsie?s engineers were close to completing work on a set of four >>> computers known as the 8000s that were compatible with the 7000s. > My tendency has been to consider 7000 xeries machines as transistorized > 700 series. Certainly that applies in the case of the 7090. > Well, to an extent. Yes, the 709x was able to run 709 programs, and had a few extensions. But, really, the hardware was VERY advanced. The 7094 was a real lightning fast machine, for the technology available at the time. In fact, it was faster than most of the 360 line that replaced it. But, the funny thing was, it didn't multitask well, and so you could only run one program at a time. And, spooling input and output to tapes slowed it badly (although not as badly as reading cards and printing directly would have). So, while fast, it didn't run efficiently. Slower 360's could keep busy by multiprocessing, and thus get more work done. Jon From useddec at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 23:07:04 2019 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 23:07:04 -0500 Subject: Fujitsi 2444AC 9-track tape drive/PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <1555078567239.50120@w2hx.com> References: <4f1fc31d65a94f38a9bfee458f81a92f@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> <1555030227322.56954@w2hx.com> <1555078567239.50120@w2hx.com> Message-ID: Hi Eugene, I found my Emulex boards, but found TU13s and not QT13s. I did not look at the S box boards. Then I found a few Cipher Data Products ( AKA Spectra Logic Products) 500A00s. I'm not sure what they are, but they look like re-branded Emulex with different handles. Did Dilog or anyone else make anything else that would work? Paul On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 9:37 AM W2HX via cctalk wrote: > Great, thank you to everyone! > This is what I purchased... > https://www.ebay.com/itm/171171330190 > > looks to be the right thing. I would have made it myself but I'd have to > buy like 50 feet minimum of the ribbon plus connectors plus shipping plus > my time. This seemed like a good compromise. > > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Glen Slick via > cctalk > Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 9:10 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Fujitsi 2444AC 9-track tape drive/PDP-11 > > On Thu, Apr 11, 2019 at 5:55 PM W2HX via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Question to owners of the 2444AC. I have been looking to acquire the > Emulex QT13 but cannot find anything on ebay (I did miss one early on and > wanted to kick myself). Anyone have one available for purchase? > > > > Second question. The cable that I need to make here. Can anyone confirm > I need to female IDC connectors on each side? (the tape drive and the QT13 > have male pins)? > > > > Thanks > > That reminds me I need to check to see how many QT13 boards I > currently have and see if I have one to spare. > > This picture shows the SUN configuration female D-shell connectors > with ribbon cables running to the two 50-pin Pertec interface > connectors on the cache controller board: > > http://w2hx.com/x/VintageComp/Fujitsu-2444AC/0306192310.jpg > > If you remove those 'A' and 'B' ribbon cables then you just need a > pair of 50-pin cables with female IDC connectors on one side, and if > you are using a QT13 then female IDC connectors on the other side as > well. > > You need to check the connector pinout tables in the 2444AC manual > against the QT13 manual to see which connector on the 2444AC goes to > which connector on the QT13 so you don't get the cables crossed. I > forget without checking the manuals myself. > From dave at babcock-family.org Sat Apr 13 00:00:24 2019 From: dave at babcock-family.org (Dave Babcock) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 22:00:24 -0700 Subject: Daisywhell typewriter emulating a TTY In-Reply-To: <1db9b733-ca43-1066-5007-db540122a9aa@sydex.com> References: <3117bbc9-9d06-313f-3513-164d946281ef@babcock-family.org> <28fcdebe-8400-9ad2-d856-839d241c8dfa@sydex.com> <1db9b733-ca43-1066-5007-db540122a9aa@sydex.com> Message-ID: <41cc8701-57aa-4b3d-0f75-1c82946cb7b0@babcock-family.org> Chuck, The Group Mark key was on later IBM 1620 Model 1 typewriters as well as the Model 2 Selectrics. See: https://www.dropbox.com/s/p2b1449zr6uqh6p/IBM_1620_Console_Typewriter.png?dl=0 The flagged numeric blank was accidentally left out of the print sample I made. Thanks, Dave On 4/10/2019 10:49 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Thanks, Dave. > > Was the group mark on the Model 2 typewriter keyboard? I don't recall > it from the CADET. It was associated with the 1311 disk option anyway. > > How does one print a flagged numeric blank? (the "dump numeric" > instruction prints it)? > > Thanks, > Chuck > > > > > On 4/10/19 10:10 PM, Dave Babcock via cctalk wrote: >> Sorry about the missing photos. >> >> Here's the keyboard: >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/oyxdpwi2mzz4kek/custom-keyboard.jpg?dl=0 >> >> Here's the printed output: >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/fb7lzrlzygnnvhl/Console_Typewriter_Output.png?dl=0 >> >> >> Thanks, >> Dave >> >> >> On 4/10/2019 11:56 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>> Dave, >>> >>> I'd love to see the keyboard and printed output; unfortunately, the >>> listserv strips out anything but test.?? Got a link? >>> >>> --Chuck >>> >>> >>> On 4/10/19 11:14 AM, Dave Babcock via cctalk wrote: >>>> Chuck, >>>> >>>> True, the 1620 Model 1 Model B typewriter (1st gen).? The 1620 Model 2 >>>> used a Selectric (2nd gen).? We're using the 3rd generation IBM electric >>>> typewriter (Wheelwriter) with the 1620 Jr. (3rd gen 1620?).? [I know >>>> it's a stretch.] >>>> >>>> The issue is that for Jr. we needed a reliable, robust, very low >>>> maintenance device.? The IBM 1620 Jr. will be used by the CHM Education >>>> Department and needs to stand up to hands-on use without needed >>>> difficult & expensive maintenance. >>>> >>>> Here's the keyboard of our Wheelwriter-based IBM 1620 Jr. Console >>>> Typewriter: >>>> >>>> And here is the printed output: >>>> Note the slashed zero, flagged digits, and all of the 1620 special >>>> characters.?? :-) >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Dave >>>> > From dave at babcock-family.org Sat Apr 13 00:00:24 2019 From: dave at babcock-family.org (Dave Babcock) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 22:00:24 -0700 Subject: Daisywhell typewriter emulating a TTY In-Reply-To: <1db9b733-ca43-1066-5007-db540122a9aa@sydex.com> References: <3117bbc9-9d06-313f-3513-164d946281ef@babcock-family.org> <28fcdebe-8400-9ad2-d856-839d241c8dfa@sydex.com> <1db9b733-ca43-1066-5007-db540122a9aa@sydex.com> Message-ID: <41cc8701-57aa-4b3d-0f75-1c82946cb7b0@babcock-family.org> Chuck, The Group Mark key was on later IBM 1620 Model 1 typewriters as well as the Model 2 Selectrics. See: https://www.dropbox.com/s/p2b1449zr6uqh6p/IBM_1620_Console_Typewriter.png?dl=0 The flagged numeric blank was accidentally left out of the print sample I made. Thanks, Dave On 4/10/2019 10:49 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Thanks, Dave. > > Was the group mark on the Model 2 typewriter keyboard? I don't recall > it from the CADET. It was associated with the 1311 disk option anyway. > > How does one print a flagged numeric blank? (the "dump numeric" > instruction prints it)? > > Thanks, > Chuck > > > > > On 4/10/19 10:10 PM, Dave Babcock via cctalk wrote: >> Sorry about the missing photos. >> >> Here's the keyboard: >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/oyxdpwi2mzz4kek/custom-keyboard.jpg?dl=0 >> >> Here's the printed output: >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/fb7lzrlzygnnvhl/Console_Typewriter_Output.png?dl=0 >> >> >> Thanks, >> Dave >> >> >> On 4/10/2019 11:56 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>> Dave, >>> >>> I'd love to see the keyboard and printed output; unfortunately, the >>> listserv strips out anything but test.?? Got a link? >>> >>> --Chuck >>> >>> >>> On 4/10/19 11:14 AM, Dave Babcock via cctalk wrote: >>>> Chuck, >>>> >>>> True, the 1620 Model 1 Model B typewriter (1st gen).? The 1620 Model 2 >>>> used a Selectric (2nd gen).? We're using the 3rd generation IBM electric >>>> typewriter (Wheelwriter) with the 1620 Jr. (3rd gen 1620?).? [I know >>>> it's a stretch.] >>>> >>>> The issue is that for Jr. we needed a reliable, robust, very low >>>> maintenance device.? The IBM 1620 Jr. will be used by the CHM Education >>>> Department and needs to stand up to hands-on use without needed >>>> difficult & expensive maintenance. >>>> >>>> Here's the keyboard of our Wheelwriter-based IBM 1620 Jr. Console >>>> Typewriter: >>>> >>>> And here is the printed output: >>>> Note the slashed zero, flagged digits, and all of the 1620 special >>>> characters.?? :-) >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Dave >>>> > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 13 01:47:23 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2019 23:47:23 -0700 Subject: Daisywhell typewriter emulating a TTY In-Reply-To: <41cc8701-57aa-4b3d-0f75-1c82946cb7b0@babcock-family.org> References: <3117bbc9-9d06-313f-3513-164d946281ef@babcock-family.org> <28fcdebe-8400-9ad2-d856-839d241c8dfa@sydex.com> <1db9b733-ca43-1066-5007-db540122a9aa@sydex.com> <41cc8701-57aa-4b3d-0f75-1c82946cb7b0@babcock-family.org> Message-ID: On 4/12/19 10:00 PM, Dave Babcock via cctalk wrote: > Chuck, > > The Group Mark key was on later IBM 1620 Model 1 typewriters as well as > the Model 2 Selectrics. > > See: > https://www.dropbox.com/s/p2b1449zr6uqh6p/IBM_1620_Console_Typewriter.png?dl=0 > > > The flagged numeric blank was accidentally left out of the print sample > I made. > > Thanks, > Dave Thanks for that--I guess the CADETs that I fooled with way back when didn't have the group mark on the typewriter keyboard. Didn't matter much, as I mostly used cards, which allowed for some additional bit patterns (e.g. 821 for a record mark). I could see Dijstra's gripes with the machine--characters that you can only move, not test for or do arithmetic on. Characters that you could read, but not write. One thing that I never tried was to insert numeric blanks, record marks and group marks into the addition table and see what happened. Did you ever try that? Would you simply get an error stop if one of the non-numerics showed up in an addition? Egad, I haven't touched one of the things in something like 50 years and yet I can remember the numeric opcodes for much of it. It's amazing that the machines were as popular as they were. Ah, memories... --Chuck From cube1 at charter.net Sat Apr 13 09:11:56 2019 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2019 09:11:56 -0500 Subject: Interesting article in Spectrum about IBM's System/360 In-Reply-To: References: <43b54f05-09f7-66b3-eb7a-c6d2125ff86b@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 4/12/2019 1:15 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > The article says: > > Poughkeepsie?s engineers were close to completing work on a set of four >> computers known as the 8000s that were compatible with the 7000s. > > > AFAICT, that is totally wrong. The 8000 series was completely INCOMPATIBLE > with any of the 7000 series machines. In fact, most of the 7000 series > machines weren't even compatible with each other, though the 7040 and 7044 > had partial compatibility with the 7090 and 7094. > > There are some 8000 documents on Bitsavers so you can see for yourself. > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/8000/ > Furthermore, like the 8000 series would have been, the 7000 series (and the 700 series, and the 1400 series, for that matter) was more of a series of *technology* rather than a series of compatible computers. The 7000 series used SMS ECL (current mode), at least in a lot of places, whereas the 1400 series were essentially RTL with some DTL sprinkled in on the 1410. For example, the IBM 7010 was an IBM 1410 done up in 7000 series technology (and was a compatible super-set of the 1410 and, via a toggle switch, the 1401). It had no architectural relationship with the 7090/7094, nor did the 7070 or 7080, near as I can tell. >From "The Genesis of the Mainframe" by Bob O. Evans (an extract from a longer memoirs document, which was not itself published, to my knowledge) https://researcher.watson.ibm.com/researcher/files/us-bbfinkel/bob_o_evans_mainframe.pdf "Flush with the success of the 1401 and the 1410 in process ? I was not willing to abandon those winners to join the 8000 series plan, which did not sit right with me in the first place because the 8103, 8104, 8108 and the 8112 were architecturally incompatible and I was certain compatibility was fundamentally important." "By May 1961 I concluded the 8000 series would be a serious blunder, in part because of the lack of compatibility within the systems family. I did not buy Dr. Brooks? arguments that recompilation would be acceptable to make it possible for the programming from all the dissimilar architectures of existing products to work effectively on the dissimilar architectures of the 8000 series. There were other important reasons to scrap the 8000 series plan including technology choice. Jerrier Haddad backed my decision; the 8000 Series plan was killed." My experience with a couple of magazine authors during my career tells me that many of them do not understand much of what they are writing, and errors like this 7000/8000 thing are common. Another half truth in the article reads: "The power of compatibility was demonstrated in the fall of 1960, when IBM introduced the more powerful 1410 to replace the 1401. Software and peripheral equipment for the 1401 worked with the newer machine. " That was only true to the extent that the 1410 included a 1401 compatibility mode switch, which literally changed the logic so that it became a (somewhat faster) 1401. In its normal 1410 position, it could not run 1401 programs, and vice/versa. JRJ From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Apr 13 09:37:09 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2019 09:37:09 -0500 Subject: Interesting article in Spectrum about IBM's System/360 In-Reply-To: References: <43b54f05-09f7-66b3-eb7a-c6d2125ff86b@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5CB1F415.7040409@pico-systems.com> On 04/13/2019 09:11 AM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > For example, the IBM 7010 was an IBM 1410 done up in 7000 > series technology (and was a compatible super-set of the > 1410 and, via a toggle switch, the 1401). It had no > architectural relationship with the 7090/7094, nor did the > 7070 or 7080, near as I can tell. Yes, the 14xx were character-based decimal machines. The 7070 was a word-based decimal machine aimed at the business market. The 709x were word-based binary machines. Jon From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sat Apr 13 17:07:32 2019 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2019 17:07:32 -0500 Subject: Adding floppy drives to my PDP-11? Message-ID: <980DFF92917E48B9B257AE5FFDAC32F2@CharlesDellLap> I have a PDP-11/23+ with two RL02's in a corporate cabinet but no floppy drives. Also an RXV21 (M8029) card. My PDP-8/A has RX01 drives, and I was hoping just to run the cable over to the -11 when I wanted to use floppies on it. But after some searching, it appears that the RXV21 will only work with an RX02 drive... Just wondering what my options are for hooking up any kind of floppy drives. I could sell the RXV21 and buy/trade for an RXV11 (M7946) instead, to use with the RX01 in the other rack. Or look for an RX02 that won't break the bank - but that won't fit in the corporate cabinet. I do have another cabinet but it's got other rack-mount gear in it at the moment. What about smaller drives (RX50? RX33?)... can those be interfaced to the 11/23+ Qbus? Other thoughts? thanks Charles From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Apr 13 17:51:35 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2019 15:51:35 -0700 Subject: Adding floppy drives to my PDP-11? In-Reply-To: <980DFF92917E48B9B257AE5FFDAC32F2@CharlesDellLap> References: <980DFF92917E48B9B257AE5FFDAC32F2@CharlesDellLap> Message-ID: <2e133395-76e3-8222-23b0-cf27a239dada@bitsavers.org> On 4/13/19 3:07 PM, Charles via cctalk wrote: > Other thoughts? find one of the dual-wide rx02 compatible floppy boards then you can use whatever kind of 8" drives you like and you can format media From allisonportable at gmail.com Sat Apr 13 22:24:46 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2019 23:24:46 -0400 Subject: Adding floppy drives to my PDP-11? In-Reply-To: <980DFF92917E48B9B257AE5FFDAC32F2@CharlesDellLap> References: <980DFF92917E48B9B257AE5FFDAC32F2@CharlesDellLap> Message-ID: <5c05bb71-7526-b4af-4fe5-ffc4510561d5@gmail.com> On 04/13/2019 06:07 PM, Charles via cctalk wrote: > I have a PDP-11/23+ with two RL02's in a corporate cabinet but no > floppy drives. Also an RXV21 (M8029) card. > > My PDP-8/A has RX01 drives, and I was hoping just to run the cable > over to the -11 when I wanted to use floppies on it. > But after some searching, it appears that the RXV21 will only work > with an RX02 drive... > > Just wondering what my options are for hooking up any kind of floppy > drives. > I could sell the RXV21 and buy/trade for an RXV11 (M7946) instead, to > use with the RX01 in the other rack. > Or look for an RX02 that won't break the bank - but that won't fit in > the corporate cabinet. I do have another cabinet but it's got other > rack-mount gear in it at the moment. > What about smaller drives (RX50? RX33?)... can those be interfaced to > the 11/23+ Qbus? > Other thoughts? > thanks > Charles > > RX50, RX33, RX23 aall work with the RQDX2,3 controllers The boards and cables are fairly easy to find as they were used in microPDP11 and Qbus Microvax.? Depending on the CPU they will be bootable (11/23+ I believe works). IF you lucky and can fine a quantum D540 or St225 you can have a hard disk as well.? I have 11/23+ and 11/73 configured using that (rqdx2 in one and Rqdx3 in the other) and the breakout board. Many people skip over the MSCP controller for MFM hard disks as the hard drives are scarce, but floppies a Teac FG55GFR is the hot item as would be a RX50 or 1.44 3.5" floppy or all three as it can interface not less than two floppy drives. Allison From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 01:47:54 2019 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2019 23:47:54 -0700 Subject: Adding floppy drives to my PDP-11? In-Reply-To: <980DFF92917E48B9B257AE5FFDAC32F2@CharlesDellLap> References: <980DFF92917E48B9B257AE5FFDAC32F2@CharlesDellLap> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 3:07 PM Charles via cctalk wrote: > > What about smaller drives (RX50? RX33?)... can those be interfaced to the > 11/23+ Qbus? Pick up a common as dirt M7555 RQDX3. If you don't have a BA23 with the built in distribution board for the M7555 RQDX3, then pick up an M9058 distribution board to break out the signals from the M7555 RQDX3. For example, this one which is incorrectly listed as an M9056: https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-DEC-Digital-Equipment-M9056-5016673-01B1-RQDX-Signal-Dist-Card-Board/153396701812 From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Apr 14 02:16:09 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2019 07:16:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: "arx-149" computer. .. what Is? References: <1175557085.1435326.1555226169081.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1175557085.1435326.1555226169081@mail.yahoo.com> "arx-149" ? computer. .. what Is?thanks ed# From pbirkel at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 02:17:19 2019 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2019 03:17:19 -0400 Subject: Adding floppy drives to my PDP-11? In-Reply-To: References: <980DFF92917E48B9B257AE5FFDAC32F2@CharlesDellLap> Message-ID: <048b01d4f292$1929bde0$4b7d39a0$@gmail.com> >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick via cctalk >Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2019 2:48 AM >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: Re: Adding floppy drives to my PDP-11? > >On Sat, Apr 13, 2019 at 3:07 PM Charles via cctalk > wrote: >> >> What about smaller drives (RX50? RX33?)... can those be interfaced to the >> 11/23+ Qbus? > >Pick up a common as dirt M7555 RQDX3. If you don't have a BA23 with >the built in distribution board for the M7555 RQDX3, then pick up an >M9058 distribution board to break out the signals from the M7555 >RQDX3. > >For example, this one which is incorrectly listed as an M9056: >https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-DEC-Digital-Equipment-M9056-5016673-01B1-RQDX-Signal-Dist-Card-Board/153396701812 For more information and roll-your-own instructions, see: http://avitech.com.au/?page_id=645 Malcolm may still have PCBs available; shipping from Australia. ----- From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Sun Apr 14 10:38:36 2019 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2019 16:38:36 +0100 Subject: DELQA? Message-ID: <877ebw38cj.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Unsurprisingly the DEQNA card in my PDP-11/73 is quite unstable and results in 2.11BSD panicing. Is there anything that can be done about this? Other than unplugging it that is... I don't think there very much broadcast traffic making its way to the PDP. It's usually when I'm transferring files. If not, does anyone have a DELQA card they would be willing to part with (preferably in the UK) for a sensible price? Thanks, Aaron. -- Aaron Jackson - M6PIU Researcher at University of Nottingham http://aaronsplace.co.uk/ From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sun Apr 14 12:56:57 2019 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2019 12:56:57 -0500 Subject: FS: Qbus serial line cards Message-ID: <45D4028723AA460DAC8853B513F336AD@CharlesDellLap> I ran this ad back in 2015, will try again :) I was going through my board collection and found three PDP-11 boards I've never used in years and don't see a foreseeable need. No idea of condition, but they're visually clean and neat, stored in antistatic bags. The serial cards came out of my working 11/23+ but I've not tested them (since I already have a 16-line card and only 2 terminals). I have (one each): M7957 DZV11 Quad height 4-line serial card M8053 DMV11 "Microprogram Control" synchronous controller card (looks like it was intended for networking with 56k modems) Dilog CQ1610 16-line serial card. Make any reasonable offers. + shipping from US zip 65775. thanks Charles From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Apr 14 12:59:00 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2019 10:59:00 -0700 Subject: "arx-149" computer. .. what Is? In-Reply-To: <1175557085.1435326.1555226169081@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1175557085.1435326.1555226169081.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1175557085.1435326.1555226169081@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <18759da8-40f7-b744-ebc1-611d671e335c@bitsavers.org> On 4/14/19 12:16 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > "arx-149" ? computer. .. what Is?thanks ed# > targeting computer for the illudium q-36 explosive space modulator From cube1 at charter.net Sun Apr 14 16:44:35 2019 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2019 16:44:35 -0500 Subject: "arx-149" computer. .. what Is? In-Reply-To: <18759da8-40f7-b744-ebc1-611d671e335c@bitsavers.org> References: <1175557085.1435326.1555226169081.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1175557085.1435326.1555226169081@mail.yahoo.com> <18759da8-40f7-b744-ebc1-611d671e335c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <64b3173f-e3c5-034b-f567-f435225b37bb@charter.net> On 4/14/2019 12:59 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 4/14/19 12:16 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: >> "arx-149" ? computer. .. what Is?thanks ed# >> > > targeting computer for the illudium q-36 explosive space modulator > > > Dying ROTFL. ;) (: :) (: From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Apr 14 17:29:19 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2019 18:29:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Adding floppy drives to my PDP-11? Message-ID: <20190414222919.57AF718C0B5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Charles Morris > it appears that the RXV21 will only work with an RX02 drive... So an RX02 can be jumpered to work with the non-DMA RXV11; but the DMA RXV21 can't be configured to work with an RX01. Which of these two is a more interesting/useful thing to be able to do? People at MIT used to theorize the existence of a virulent biological virus, 'Honeywell Brain Damage'; I wonder if there's a DEC mutation? > Just wondering what my options are for hooking up any kind of floppy > drives. I could sell the RXV21 and buy/trade for an RXV11 (M7946) > instead Those used to be fairly common on eBay for not many dineros; I only see one moderately expensive one at the moment, though. I'd definitely go this way, though - maybe Paul A has one available? Noel From barythrin at gmail.com Sun Apr 14 18:44:38 2019 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2019 18:44:38 -0500 Subject: "arx-149" computer. .. what Is? In-Reply-To: <1175557085.1435326.1555226169081@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1175557085.1435326.1555226169081.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1175557085.1435326.1555226169081@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Is there a specific reference you have for this? Sent from my Apple /////c > On Apr 14, 2019, at 2:16 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > "arx-149" computer. .. what Is?thanks ed# From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Sun Apr 14 19:22:08 2019 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin (SFU)) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2019 17:22:08 -0700 Subject: DELQA? In-Reply-To: <877ebw38cj.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <877ebw38cj.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: Not in the UK, but Mitch Miller at Keyways Inc (keyways.com) has tested/working cards at reasonable prices. I had the same issue on a recent MicroVAX II upgrade, I replaced a incompatible DEQNA with a DELQA. I?ve bought near a dozen cards from him, honest dealer and experienced with DEC stuff. Kevin Sent from my iPad > On Apr 14, 2019, at 08:38, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: > > Unsurprisingly the DEQNA card in my PDP-11/73 is quite unstable and > results in 2.11BSD panicing. Is there anything that can be done about > this? Other than unplugging it that is... I don't think there very much > broadcast traffic making its way to the PDP. It's usually when I'm > transferring files. > > If not, does anyone have a DELQA card they would be willing to part with > (preferably in the UK) for a sensible price? > > Thanks, > Aaron. > > -- > Aaron Jackson - M6PIU > Researcher at University of Nottingham > http://aaronsplace.co.uk/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 01:35:01 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 02:35:01 -0400 Subject: DELQA? In-Reply-To: References: <877ebw38cj.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 1:16 AM Kevin McQuiggin (SFU) via cctalk wrote: > Not in the UK, but Mitch Miller at Keyways Inc (keyways.com) has tested/working cards at reasonable prices. I had the same issue on a recent MicroVAX II upgrade, I replaced a incompatible DEQNA with a DELQA. I?ve bought near a dozen cards from him, honest dealer and experienced with DEC stuff. He's near me (about 90 minutes West). I used to run into him at computer shows/hamvention in Dayton. He is definitely experienced and trustworthy. He has some stratospheric prices on some items, but those are typically the prices and items for businesses with immediate need and someone to stand behind the product. I haven't purchased from him recently (since the Dayton Computer Shows ended) but I've heard from others that he can be accommodating to hobbyists where possible. -ethan From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Mon Apr 15 03:05:54 2019 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 09:05:54 +0100 Subject: DELQA? In-Reply-To: References: <877ebw38cj.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <91bv9zfae1p.fsf@spline.cs.nott.ac.uk> On 15 April 2019 at 07:35 BST, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 1:16 AM Kevin McQuiggin (SFU) via cctalk > wrote: >> Not in the UK, but Mitch Miller at Keyways Inc (keyways.com) has tested/working cards at reasonable prices. I had the same issue on a recent MicroVAX II upgrade, I replaced a incompatible DEQNA with a DELQA. I?ve bought near a dozen cards from him, honest dealer and experienced with DEC stuff. > > He's near me (about 90 minutes West). I used to run into him at > computer shows/hamvention in Dayton. He is definitely experienced and > trustworthy. He has some stratospheric prices on some items, but > those are typically the prices and items for businesses with immediate > need and someone to stand behind the product. I haven't purchased > from him recently (since the Dayton Computer Shows ended) but I've > heard from others that he can be accommodating to hobbyists where > possible. > > -ethan Thanks both, yes I have spoken to Mitch a few times in the past and he does seem like a nice / genuine guy. I will keep Keyways in mind. The main annoyance for me is paying import tax but perhaps it won't be too bad. I think I do have a DELQA card but it is in a VAX 4000/300 and riveted to a quad width frame. Aaron From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 15 13:52:32 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 12:52:32 -0600 Subject: "arx-149" computer. .. what Is? In-Reply-To: References: <1175557085.1435326.1555226169081.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1175557085.1435326.1555226169081@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 4/14/2019 5:44 PM, Sam O'nella via cctalk wrote: > Is there a specific reference you have for this? > > Sent from my Apple /////c > >> On Apr 14, 2019, at 2:16 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: >> >> "arx-149" computer. .. what Is?thanks ed# > I'd like to know too. I never could quite understand just what Marvin The Martian said. " The *** 32 * **** um *space ** xx ** later *, :) From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Apr 15 14:16:06 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 19:16:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: "arx-149" computer. .. what Is? References: <1991175879.3660057.1555355766584.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1991175879.3660057.1555355766584@mail.yahoo.com> It is in a? metal? suitcase appears? to? be? military analog? computer Ed! In a message dated 4/15/2019 11:52:41 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: On 4/14/2019 5:44 PM, Sam O'nella via cctalk wrote: > Is there a specific reference you have for this? > > Sent from my Apple /////c > >> On Apr 14, 2019, at 2:16 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: >> >> "arx-149"? computer. .. what Is?thanks ed# > I'd like to know too. I never could quite understand just what Marvin The Martian said. " The *** 32 * **** um *space ** xx ** later *, :) From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Mon Apr 15 14:20:08 2019 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 15:20:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: "arx-149" computer. .. what Is? In-Reply-To: <1991175879.3660057.1555355766584@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1991175879.3660057.1555355766584.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1991175879.3660057.1555355766584@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1704641073.703988.1555356008417@email.ionos.com> Marvin the Martian by Shanaka Dias ___ /]_/ |\/|.--/'-. \|/:o / /\ ._, \_/_.'0/ _|_ \____]] (>[___]=]]]=== / \___/P{] __// /----\/ (_[-'\__/_ / | | \ '=='='==' ____||||___ snd (_""_/ \_""_) "The M42 Space Modulator" > On April 15, 2019 at 3:16 PM ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > > It is in a? metal? suitcase appears? to? be? military analog? computer Ed! > > In a message dated 4/15/2019 11:52:41 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > On 4/14/2019 5:44 PM, Sam O'nella via cctalk wrote: > > Is there a specific reference you have for this? > > > > Sent from my Apple /////c > > > On Apr 14, 2019, at 2:16 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > >> "arx-149"? computer. .. what Is?thanks ed# > > > I'd like to know too. I never could quite understand just what Marvin > The Martian said. " The *** 32 * **** um *space ** xx ** later *, :) "He may look dumb but that's just a disguise."? -- Charlie Daniels "The names of global variables should start with? ? // "? --?https://isocpp.org From bhilpert at shaw.ca Mon Apr 15 14:50:21 2019 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 12:50:21 -0700 Subject: "arx-149" computer. .. what Is? In-Reply-To: <1991175879.3660057.1555355766584@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1991175879.3660057.1555355766584.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1991175879.3660057.1555355766584@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <33D1B709-95CF-4798-83BA-AD8F63CF97E6@shaw.ca> On 2019-Apr-15, at 12:16 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > It is in a metal suitcase appears to be military analog computer Ed! > > On 4/14/2019 5:44 PM, Sam O'nella via cctalk wrote: >> Is there a specific reference you have for this? >> >>> On Apr 14, 2019, at 2:16 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> "arx-149" computer. .. what Is?thanks ed# It doesn't show up here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_electronics_of_the_United_States Only two "149"s and no "ARX"s. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 15:29:11 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 16:29:11 -0400 Subject: "arx-149" computer. .. what Is? In-Reply-To: <33D1B709-95CF-4798-83BA-AD8F63CF97E6@shaw.ca> References: <1991175879.3660057.1555355766584.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1991175879.3660057.1555355766584@mail.yahoo.com> <33D1B709-95CF-4798-83BA-AD8F63CF97E6@shaw.ca> Message-ID: > It doesn't show up here: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_electronics_of_the_United_States I think 99.99mumble percent of JETDS systems ("AN/") do not show up on that list. I have a 1972 edition of one of the JANAP guides (I forget which one) used to determine the security classification of every JETDS item up to that point (and I mean EVERY one, including the unicorns and unmentionable ones). 70 rows, 2 entries per row on each of the full pages. The book is close to 5 inches thick. And yes, from nearly 50 years ago. Wiki, shmiki. -- Will -- Will From bhilpert at shaw.ca Mon Apr 15 18:03:49 2019 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 16:03:49 -0700 Subject: "arx-149" computer. .. what Is? In-Reply-To: References: <1991175879.3660057.1555355766584.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1991175879.3660057.1555355766584@mail.yahoo.com> <33D1B709-95CF-4798-83BA-AD8F63CF97E6@shaw.ca> Message-ID: On 2019-Apr-15, at 1:29 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> It doesn't show up here: >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_electronics_of_the_United_States > > I think 99.99mumble percent of JETDS systems ("AN/") do not show up on > that list. > > I have a 1972 edition of one of the JANAP guides (I forget which one) > used to determine the security classification of every JETDS item up > to that point (and I mean EVERY one, including the unicorns and > unmentionable ones). 70 rows, 2 entries per row on each of the full > pages. The book is close to 5 inches thick. And yes, from nearly 50 > years ago. > > Wiki, shmiki. Lovely. So have you checked it for the mentioned type? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 18:19:14 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 19:19:14 -0400 Subject: "arx-149" computer. .. what Is? In-Reply-To: References: <1991175879.3660057.1555355766584.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1991175879.3660057.1555355766584@mail.yahoo.com> <33D1B709-95CF-4798-83BA-AD8F63CF97E6@shaw.ca> Message-ID: > Lovely. So have you checked it for the mentioned type? It is not JETDS, so it would not be there (and it is indeed not there). -- Will From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 20:09:24 2019 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 20:09:24 -0500 Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... In-Reply-To: References: <687d16df-68fc-cc8d-0de9-327d58ddf01d@greenmail.ch> <1127264547.29568341.1554678451146@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: you guys bidding on it then? On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 4:53 AM Christian Corti via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sun, 7 Apr 2019, P Gebhardt wrote: > > wow! ...Hopefully some larger museums or seriously envolved hobbyists > > within Germany can take care of this piece of history to save this nice > > piece of computer history. > > Hm, let's see if our museum can get that system - as long as the price > stays reasonable. It's not too far from Stuttgart and we could pick > it up in Nuremberg (or possibly in Herzogenaurach). > > Christian > From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Mon Apr 15 22:59:02 2019 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 22:59:02 -0500 Subject: Dilog CQ1610 switch settings? Message-ID: <4A3262A4E7E6482B8E3E4A0F3EE477B7@CharlesDellLap> I have a Dilog CQ-1610 serial line card (16 ports!) that I'd either like to sell, or at least put it in my backplane and play with it since I have a copy of TSX+ :) But I can't find any info, especially the DIP switch settings. All I see is "emulates a Unibus DH-11" but that is not even close for hardware/layout. Any thoughts? thanks Charles From tsraguso at gmail.com Mon Apr 15 12:08:33 2019 From: tsraguso at gmail.com (Thomas Raguso) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2019 12:08:33 -0500 Subject: ATEX PDP-11 For Sale in Houston Message-ID: I am selling an Atex PDP-11/34. The computer has: J11 CPU, 11 MB RAM, 2 BA11-LE expansion chassis, a second backplane, an SMD disk controller and LAN hardware. Items are all untested, sold as-is. Local pickup is preferred, but I will consider shipping freight. Please make an offer on the whole machine, or any piece of it. From useddec at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 01:27:50 2019 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 01:27:50 -0500 Subject: Adding floppy drives to my PDP-11? In-Reply-To: <20190414222919.57AF718C0B5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190414222919.57AF718C0B5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Sorry, I've been rather busy lately. I just looked and I have a few RXV11, M7946 left. Paul On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 5:29 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > From: Charles Morris > > > it appears that the RXV21 will only work with an RX02 drive... > > So an RX02 can be jumpered to work with the non-DMA RXV11; but the DMA > RXV21 > can't be configured to work with an RX01. Which of these two is a more > interesting/useful thing to be able to do? > > People at MIT used to theorize the existence of a virulent biological > virus, > 'Honeywell Brain Damage'; I wonder if there's a DEC mutation? > > > Just wondering what my options are for hooking up any kind of floppy > > drives. I could sell the RXV21 and buy/trade for an RXV11 (M7946) > > instead > > Those used to be fairly common on eBay for not many dineros; I only see > one moderately expensive one at the moment, though. I'd definitely go > this way, though - maybe Paul A has one available? > > Noel > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Apr 16 03:05:24 2019 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 10:05:24 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... In-Reply-To: References: <687d16df-68fc-cc8d-0de9-327d58ddf01d@greenmail.ch> <1127264547.29568341.1554678451146@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Apr 2019, it was written > you guys bidding on it then? Yes, but only up to a certain limit. Christian > > On Mon, Apr 8, 2019 at 4:53 AM Christian Corti via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On Sun, 7 Apr 2019, P Gebhardt wrote: >>> wow! ...Hopefully some larger museums or seriously envolved hobbyists >>> within Germany can take care of this piece of history to save this nice >>> piece of computer history. >> >> Hm, let's see if our museum can get that system - as long as the price >> stays reasonable. It's not too far from Stuttgart and we could pick >> it up in Nuremberg (or possibly in Herzogenaurach). >> >> Christian >> > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Apr 16 05:51:26 2019 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 12:51:26 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... In-Reply-To: References: <687d16df-68fc-cc8d-0de9-327d58ddf01d@greenmail.ch> <1127264547.29568341.1554678451146@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Apr 2019, Christian Corti wrote: > On Mon, 15 Apr 2019, it was written >> you guys bidding on it then? > > Yes, but only up to a certain limit. 3710 Euro... someone with definitely too much money for a system in unknown condition and local pickup only. So no, we did not get the system, and it probably won't go into a museum. Christian From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Apr 16 10:49:21 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 10:49:21 -0500 Subject: ATEX PDP-11 For Sale in Houston In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5CB5F981.7000202@pico-systems.com> On 04/15/2019 12:08 PM, Thomas Raguso via cctalk wrote: > I am selling an Atex PDP-11/34. The computer has: J11 CPU, 11 MB RAM, 2 > BA11-LE expansion chassis, a second backplane, an SMD disk controller and > LAN hardware. > > 11 MB ram on a PDP-11? Is that possible? Also, was the J11 used in the 11/34? Wasn't the /34 all TTL? Jon From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Apr 16 11:08:07 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 12:08:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... Message-ID: <20190416160807.EFBA718C0BD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Christian Corti > 3710 Euro... someone with definitely too much money ... So no, we did > not get the system, and it probably won't go into a museum. Well, I did send you email offering to contribute, to help you all buy it. Did my email not make it to you? Noel From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 11:11:15 2019 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 11:11:15 -0500 Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... In-Reply-To: <20190416160807.EFBA718C0BD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190416160807.EFBA718C0BD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 11:08 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > From: Christian Corti > > > 3710 Euro... someone with definitely too much money ... So no, we did > > not get the system, and it probably won't go into a museum. > > Well, I did send you email offering to contribute, to help you all buy it. > Did my email not make it to you? > > Noel > Looks like it went for roughly $4k USD. Obviously logistics and storage cost play into things, but somebody got a deal. Dang. -C From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 11:25:04 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 11:25:04 -0500 Subject: ATEX PDP-11 For Sale in Houston In-Reply-To: <5CB5F981.7000202@pico-systems.com> References: <5CB5F981.7000202@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 10:49 AM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 04/15/2019 12:08 PM, Thomas Raguso via cctalk wrote: > > I am selling an Atex PDP-11/34. The computer has: J11 CPU, 11 MB RAM, 2 > > BA11-LE expansion chassis, a second backplane, an SMD disk controller and > > LAN hardware. > > > 11 MB ram on a PDP-11? Is that possible? No. On VCFED, I saw a post that said there were 176 256Kbit chips on it. I work the math as: 11 chips == 256Kbytes (with ECC) 44 chips == 1MBytes (with ECC) 176 chips == 4MBytes (with ECC). I have no idea where 11MB came from. > Also, was the J11 used in the 11/34? Wasn't the /34 all TTL? The /34 KD11-E is a two-board set with an ALU implemented with 74181 chips. This J-11 board is definitely 3rd party and much later. -ethan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 11:41:14 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 12:41:14 -0400 Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... In-Reply-To: References: <20190416160807.EFBA718C0BD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > Looks like it went for roughly $4k USD. Obviously logistics and storage > cost play into things, but somebody got a deal. Dang. -C Assuming the innards of the machines were not all rust buckets - yes. I expected at least twice that, maybe triple. But who knows - maybe the seller was not very cooperative, or there were some other reason why the price remained low. I did not bid because I went through a drama like this only a few months back and am still pretty tapped out. That, and an ocean. Oh, and with all the traffic this generated on many lists, almost no one mentions the System/370 in the mix. I think it is the big yellow box in the pictures. -- Will -- Will From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 10:32:29 2019 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 11:32:29 -0400 Subject: ATEX PDP-11 For Sale in Houston In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 11/34 originally had a two board MSI chip set CPU, in two versions. 34 and 34a. J11 versions, sort of an 11/84 variant in a 34 chassis seem to have popped up. is it like this one? On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 12:56 AM Thomas Raguso via cctalk wrote: > > I am selling an Atex PDP-11/34. The computer has: J11 CPU, 11 MB RAM, 2 > BA11-LE expansion chassis, a second backplane, an SMD disk controller and > LAN hardware. > > Items are all untested, sold as-is. > > Local pickup is preferred, but I will consider shipping freight. > > Please make an offer on the whole machine, or any piece of it. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Apr 16 12:59:55 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 17:59:55 +0000 Subject: ATEX PDP-11 For Sale in Houston In-Reply-To: <5CB5F981.7000202@pico-systems.com> References: <5CB5F981.7000202@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 4/16/19 11:49 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 04/15/2019 12:08 PM, Thomas Raguso via cctalk wrote: >> I am selling an Atex PDP-11/34. The computer has: J11 CPU, 11 MB RAM, 2 >> BA11-LE expansion chassis, a second backplane, an SMD disk controller and >> LAN hardware. >> >> > 11 MB ram on a PDP-11?? Is that possible? Not on any PDP-11 I ever heard of. 4Meg max (minus the IO Page). bill From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Apr 16 14:20:56 2019 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 21:20:56 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... In-Reply-To: References: <20190416160807.EFBA718C0BD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Apr 2019, William Donzelli wrote: >> Looks like it went for roughly $4k USD. Obviously logistics and storage >> cost play into things, but somebody got a deal. Dang. -C > > Assuming the innards of the machines were not all rust buckets - yes. > I expected at least twice that, maybe triple. Huh? Sorry, but I'm not made of money, and obviously, we have different oppinions about the value of a large system in unknown or mediocre condition. Sure, we would have been very happy if we could aquire the system, restore it and have it running and showing it to our visitors. But more than 1000? is not realistic, even with some noble offerings like Noel's. You have to consider all the efforts and time and space you need to invest into such an adventure. I really hope that the buyer knows what he has and that he is capable to repair and run the system. I've seen more pictures of the site (thanks to a friend who visited the site), and everything is dirty and burried under the ventilation system that fell off the ceiling as well as under debris from the crumbling ceiling, there must be a humidity problem. The door to the room goes directly to the street, the house is at least 80 years old and completely derelict. There is rust in the machines (e.g. I've seen oxidation on the spindle of the 3340 disk modules sitting on top of the 3125). There are power supply or whatever modules lying on the floor in a corner amongst other junk. > But who knows - maybe the seller was not very cooperative, or there > were some other reason why the price remained low. The seller is an antiquarian and local pickup is within two weeks. > Oh, and with all the traffic this generated on many lists, almost no > one mentions the System/370 in the mix. I think it is the big yellow > box in the pictures. Yes, but that is about all of the system. There's a hip high "table" with yellow front and back doors, I guess that was the console, with obviously missing setup. No peripherals for the 370/125 apart from a printer-keyboard (from the number list) and a card reader, so no tape or disk drives. The 3340 drives are missing (some corroded modules can be seen on one pic). But after all, I'm not too frustrated because I know where there is a complete 360/20 and a complete 370/125 (with drives) still running :-) These systems are already in a wonderful museum. Christian From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 15:22:43 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 16:22:43 -0400 Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... In-Reply-To: References: <20190416160807.EFBA718C0BD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > Huh? Sorry, but I'm not made of money, and obviously, we have different > oppinions about the value of a large system in unknown or mediocre > condition. It is not your fault or anything - you gave it a good try. I have been in the same boat, bidding what I could, but losing out. I think the hammer price was far too low. > But more than 1000? is not realistic, even with some noble offerings like > Noel's. System/360 peripherals tend to sell for 200-1000 *each*, depending on type and condition - and there were quite a lot of peripherals there. This is not counting the actual processors (even if it was a stinky little model 20 and a small (but very interesting) model 125). >You have to consider all the efforts and time and space you need > to invest into such an adventure. I have been on more than a few computer rescues. > I've seen more pictures of the site (thanks to a friend who visited the > site), and everything is dirty and burried under the ventilation system Eeewww... > Yes, but that is about all of the system. There's a hip high "table" with > yellow front and back doors, I guess that was the console, with obviously > missing setup. No peripherals for the 370/125 apart from a > printer-keyboard (from the number list) and a card reader, so no tape or > disk drives. The 3340 drives are missing (some corroded modules can be > seen on one pic). Still, S/370 peripherals tend to be easier to get, so a system could be assembled. The processors are always the tough parts to find. I think the model 125 had some built-in control units as well. > But after all, I'm not too frustrated because I know where there is a > complete 360/20 and a complete 370/125 (with drives) still running :-) > These systems are already in a wonderful museum. Clearly the pile was not purchased for scrap, so it will be interesting to see where it ends up. We may never know, with the secretive nature of big iron collectors.. -- Will From lawrence at ljw.me.uk Tue Apr 16 15:46:51 2019 From: lawrence at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 22:46:51 +0200 Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... In-Reply-To: References: <20190416160807.EFBA718C0BD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5c9108c6-8212-97c3-3df9-8131e966ed69@ljw.me.uk> On 16/04/2019 22:22, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > Clearly the pile was not purchased for scrap, so it will be > interesting to see where it ends up. We may never know, with the > secretive nature of big iron collectors.. I know one of the group that bought it, but I am not sure if they are on the list. I believe the intention is to attempt to restore the /20 + peripherals. Not sure about plans for the 370. It is a huge task, but they are keen. So rest assured it won't be scrapped, and it won't disappear into a collection. Please don't ask me who it is. They are welcome to announce themselves if they wish. And it's not classic, but here's an IBM z/Series converted into a beer fridge: https://www.flickr.com/gp/ljw/NrV130 https://www.flickr.com/gp/ljw/35y797 -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk Ph +41(0)79 926 1036 http://www.ljw.me.uk From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 16:23:24 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 17:23:24 -0400 Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... In-Reply-To: <5c9108c6-8212-97c3-3df9-8131e966ed69@ljw.me.uk> References: <20190416160807.EFBA718C0BD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5c9108c6-8212-97c3-3df9-8131e966ed69@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: > I believe the intention is to attempt to restore the /20 + peripherals. > Not sure about plans for the 370. It is a huge task, but they are keen. Did they get docs and ALDs with the pile? Or is that a big unknown until they start actually pulling the machines out. The 3125 would likely be near impossible to get running without a full set of docs. -- Will From robert626001 at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 20:34:23 2019 From: robert626001 at gmail.com (Robert) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 20:34:23 -0500 Subject: ATEX PDP-11 For Sale in Houston In-Reply-To: <5CB5F981.7000202@pico-systems.com> References: <5CB5F981.7000202@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 7:48 PM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > > Wasn't the /34 all TTL? I'm pretty sure that my 11/34 is. That was a large part of its appeal to me. I should get back to it, when I have a minute... -- Robert From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Tue Apr 16 22:17:17 2019 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 20:17:17 -0700 Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... In-Reply-To: <5c9108c6-8212-97c3-3df9-8131e966ed69@ljw.me.uk> References: <20190416160807.EFBA718C0BD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5c9108c6-8212-97c3-3df9-8131e966ed69@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: Great! As Will says, this acquisition price is a small part of what it costs to move, install and repair the system, so they got a very reasonable deal. Can you at least tell us if it is coming stateside, or is it staying in Europe? Marc From: cctalk on behalf of "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Reply-To: "lawrence at ljw.me.uk" , "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Date: Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 1:47 PM To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Subject: Re: Pleas ID this IBM system.... On 16/04/2019 22:22, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: Clearly the pile was not purchased for scrap, so it will be interesting to see where it ends up. We may never know, with the secretive nature of big iron collectors.. I know one of the group that bought it, but I am not sure if they are on the list. I believe the intention is to attempt to restore the /20 + peripherals. Not sure about plans for the 370. It is a huge task, but they are keen. So rest assured it won't be scrapped, and it won't disappear into a collection. Please don't ask me who it is. They are welcome to announce themselves if they wish. And it's not classic, but here's an IBM z/Series converted into a beer fridge: https://www.flickr.com/gp/ljw/NrV130 https://www.flickr.com/gp/ljw/35y797 -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk Ph +41(0)79 926 1036 http://www.ljw.me.uk From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Apr 17 02:30:23 2019 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 09:30:23 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... In-Reply-To: References: <20190416160807.EFBA718C0BD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5c9108c6-8212-97c3-3df9-8131e966ed69@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Apr 2019, William Donzelli wrote: > The 3125 would likely be near impossible to get running without a full > set of docs. I think I could have access to the 3125 docs (MLM, CTM, ALD etc.). At least I know where they are. Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Apr 17 02:44:41 2019 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 09:44:41 +0200 (CEST) Subject: ATEX PDP-11 For Sale in Houston In-Reply-To: References: <5CB5F981.7000202@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Apr 2019, Robert wrote: > On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 7:48 PM Jon Elson via cctalk >> Wasn't the /34 all TTL? > > I'm pretty sure that my 11/34 is. That was a large part of its appeal to me. > I should get back to it, when I have a minute... The OP first tried to sell the system on alt.sys.pdp11, then on ebay for $6000. But it is a system full of more or less, now useless custom modules, non-original CPU and no disk drives. See https://www.ebay.de/itm/123688125244 for pictures. Christian From h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl Wed Apr 17 00:38:06 2019 From: h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl (h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 07:38:06 +0200 Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... Message-ID: Hi William, I contacted the seller and asked for the docs. He returned some pics with a pile of BBB's. Regards Henk www.ibmsystem3.nl From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 07:38:53 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 08:38:53 -0400 Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I contacted the seller and asked for the docs. > He returned some pics with a pile of BBB's. Very good, thanks. Hopefully they will get online sometime. -- Will From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Apr 17 10:04:43 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 10:04:43 -0500 Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... In-Reply-To: References: <20190416160807.EFBA718C0BD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5c9108c6-8212-97c3-3df9-8131e966ed69@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <5CB7408B.4030407@pico-systems.com> On 04/17/2019 02:30 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 16 Apr 2019, William Donzelli wrote: >> The 3125 would likely be near impossible to get running >> without a full >> set of docs. > > I think I could have access to the 3125 docs (MLM, CTM, > ALD etc.). At least I know where they are. > Does the 3125 use a motor-generator set, like the larger models? Do you have the right power to run the MG? I know the MGs on the 3145 were oversized, so maybe the same unit could also run nthe 3158, and demanded an INSANE current surge when spinning up. Also, the running current, even at idle, was pretty crazy, somewhere around 60 A at 208 V 3-phase. Jon From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 10:18:29 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 11:18:29 -0400 Subject: Pleas ID this IBM system.... In-Reply-To: <5CB7408B.4030407@pico-systems.com> References: <20190416160807.EFBA718C0BD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5c9108c6-8212-97c3-3df9-8131e966ed69@ljw.me.uk> <5CB7408B.4030407@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > Does the 3125 use a motor-generator set, like the larger > models? Do you have the right power to run the MG? I know > the MGs on the 3145 were oversized, so maybe the same unit > could also run nthe 3158, and demanded an INSANE current > surge when spinning up. Also, the running current, even at > idle, was pretty crazy, somewhere around 60 A at 208 V 3-phase. No, the 3125 does not. Power consumption for a model 125 system is actually not bad for a mainframe of the era. Generally, big iron collectors are not to concerned about big copper. -- Will From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Apr 17 13:08:00 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 12:08:00 -0600 Subject: Testing... Message-ID: <73ef35ef-df5c-b93c-d3eb-8b6043cd7b5b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> ...cctalk digest mark as read. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From w2hx at w2hx.com Wed Apr 17 14:44:17 2019 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 19:44:17 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/83 w/FPU? Message-ID: <1555530258453.31866@w2hx.com> ?Hi friends. I am putting together a PDP-11 set up. i have a few CPUs available to me, a 11/23+, an 11/73 and I also have available to me an 11/83, M8190-AE . I would like to try to run as many different OS's as may interest me, including some unixes as possible (bsd...etc). My question is, are there any OSes that need the floating point option? Another question is, would I see any improvement in performance with the FPU compared to without it? Or does the application running need to be something like fortran to see any perceivable difference? Thanks From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 15:36:16 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 15:36:16 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/83 w/FPU? In-Reply-To: <1555530258453.31866@w2hx.com> References: <1555530258453.31866@w2hx.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 2:48 PM W2HX via cctalk wrote: > ?Hi friends. I am putting together a PDP-11 set up. i have a few CPUs available to me, a 11/23+, an 11/73 and I also have available to me an 11/83, M8190-AE . > > I would like to try to run as many different OS's as may interest me, including some unixes as possible (bsd...etc). My question is, are there any OSes that need the floating point option? I know old UNIX (v2) needs a KE11-A or KE11-B (a Unibus peripheral integer math option), which really wasn't something people bought/installed in an 11/34 or later. v5, v6, and v7 UNIX shouldn't require any sort of math hardware. Simple OSes like RT-11 do not require it and the The usual DEC timesharing OSes (RSX-11, RSTS/E...) won't require it,, though you may encounter a FORTRAN application that was compiled to require it. -ethan From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Apr 17 16:19:43 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 17:19:43 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/83 w/FPU? In-Reply-To: References: <1555530258453.31866@w2hx.com> Message-ID: > On Apr 17, 2019, at 4:36 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 2:48 PM W2HX via cctalk wrote: >> ?Hi friends. I am putting together a PDP-11 set up. i have a few CPUs available to me, a 11/23+, an 11/73 and I also have available to me an 11/83, M8190-AE . >> >> I would like to try to run as many different OS's as may interest me, including some unixes as possible (bsd...etc). My question is, are there any OSes that need the floating point option? > > I know old UNIX (v2) needs a KE11-A or KE11-B (a Unibus peripheral > integer math option), which really wasn't something people > bought/installed in an 11/34 or later. v5, v6, and v7 UNIX shouldn't > require any sort of math hardware. I think that was typically called "EAE" (extended arithmetic element), a Unibus peripheral that implemented integer mul/div and maybe a few other odds and ends. RSTS V4 had optional support for that. It only applies to 11/20 and 11/05 since all the other machines have the relevant instructions built into the CPU. (Later versions of RSTS required that.) > Simple OSes like RT-11 do not require it and the The usual DEC > timesharing OSes (RSX-11, RSTS/E...) won't require it,, though you may > encounter a FORTRAN application that was compiled to require it. In the case of RSTS, you could build your BASIC-PLUS either for FPU or not. If you tried to run the FPU version it would of course fail badly without that option, but you could then swap in the other one and applications would run fine. One curious detail: in the very early days DEC had a floating point software library that uses three words per value: 2 word mantissa, 1 word exponent. The source code for that popped up recently in a collection of TOPS-10 DECtape images, I remember writing an email to the list identifying it along with various other items. RSTS V3 (and I assume before) used that float library. Then in V4 they switched to the new standard, your choice of 2 or 4 word float which matches the FPU formats. Apparently they pulled that change without any means to convert existing binary data files; probably there weren't enough to worry. paul From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Apr 17 22:34:52 2019 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 05:34:52 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/83 w/FPU? In-Reply-To: <1555530258453.31866@w2hx.com> References: <1555530258453.31866@w2hx.com> Message-ID: <20190418033452.GA98628@beast.freibergnet.de> W2HX via cctalk wrote: > ?Hi friends. I am putting together a PDP-11 set up. i have a few CPUs available to me, a 11/23+, an 11/73 and I also have available to me an 11/83, M8190-AE . > > > I would like to try to run as many different OS's as may interest me, including some unixes as possible (bsd...etc). My question is, are there any OSes that need the floating point option? > > > Another question is, would I see any improvement in performance with the FPU compared to without it? Or does the application running need to be something like fortran to see any perceivable difference? > > > Thanks 2.11BSD needs it. There is an peace of emulator software in it, but as far as I know it never really worked. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org Wed Apr 17 23:30:02 2019 From: ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org (Andrew Luke Nesbit) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 05:30:02 +0100 Subject: Plane of core memory Message-ID: <502f788e-4f9d-06af-bbdf-a97023fe0a4e@andrewnesbit.org> Hello all, I have been wanting to acquire a plane of magnetic core memory as a piece of computing history. My partner actually thinks they look very beautiful and says we should frame it, if we ever find a plane. At the time I was thinking about memory from the S/360. But in retrospect, this is not necessary. It would, however, be nice to know what computer a prospective purchase likely came from. It adds to the meaning. One of my online friends just pointed this to me, which I am considering purchasing: https://www.ebay.com/itm/264262833353 There is no indication of what sort of computer it came from. However I have been told to check the bus connector. Does anybody here have any ideas? For example, what is it? Or, if you don't know, could you point me in the right direction so I can do the research myself? Thanks!! Kind regards, Andrew -- OpenPGP key: EB28 0338 28B7 19DA DAB0 B193 D21D 996E 883B E5B9 From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Apr 17 23:44:20 2019 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 21:44:20 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/83 w/FPU? In-Reply-To: References: <1555530258453.31866@w2hx.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 2:58 PM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Apr 17, 2019, at 4:36 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 2:48 PM W2HX via cctalk > wrote: > >> ?Hi friends. I am putting together a PDP-11 set up. i have a few CPUs > available to me, a 11/23+, an 11/73 and I also have available to me an > 11/83, M8190-AE . > >> > >> I would like to try to run as many different OS's as may interest me, > including some unixes as possible (bsd...etc). My question is, are there > any OSes that need the floating point option? > > > > I know old UNIX (v2) needs a KE11-A or KE11-B (a Unibus peripheral > > integer math option), which really wasn't something people > > bought/installed in an 11/34 or later. v5, v6, and v7 UNIX shouldn't > > require any sort of math hardware. > > I think that was typically called "EAE" (extended arithmetic element), a > Unibus peripheral that implemented integer mul/div and maybe a few other > odds and ends. RSTS V4 had optional support for that. It only applies to > 11/20 and 11/05 since all the other machines have the relevant instructions > built into the CPU. (Later versions of RSTS required that.) > The EAE was also an option on the 11/40. At any rate, on the 11/73 and 83 CPU, the microcode emulates the floating point instructions if an actual FPA isn't fitted, so everything should just work (just a bit slower). - Josh From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Apr 17 23:47:19 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 22:47:19 -0600 Subject: Plane of core memory In-Reply-To: <502f788e-4f9d-06af-bbdf-a97023fe0a4e@andrewnesbit.org> References: <502f788e-4f9d-06af-bbdf-a97023fe0a4e@andrewnesbit.org> Message-ID: <52232782-5a09-bb01-b016-c697b8f43f13@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 4/17/19 10:30 PM, Andrew Luke Nesbit via cctalk wrote: > Hello all, Hi, > I have been wanting to acquire a plane of magnetic core memory as a > piece of computing history. My partner actually thinks they look very > beautiful and says we should frame it, if we ever find a plane. If you just want core memory, check out the following link: Link - Core Memory Shield for Arduino - https://www.tindie.com/products/kilpelaj/core-memory-shield-for-arduino/ You can actually use Core Memory on a modern computer. }:-) > Does anybody here have any ideas? For example, what is it? Or, if you > don't know, could you point me in the right direction so I can do the > research myself? Thanks!! I have no idea. The connectors remind me of a DEC machine bus, but I don't know what the bus name is. I also find it odd that memory would plug into the system bus like that. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From useddec at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 00:24:30 2019 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 00:24:30 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/83 w/FPU? In-Reply-To: References: <1555530258453.31866@w2hx.com> Message-ID: Are you referring to the M7238 EIS on the 11/40? On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 11:45 PM Josh Dersch via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 2:58 PM Paul Koning via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Apr 17, 2019, at 4:36 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 2:48 PM W2HX via cctalk > > > wrote: > > >> ?Hi friends. I am putting together a PDP-11 set up. i have a few CPUs > > available to me, a 11/23+, an 11/73 and I also have available to me an > > 11/83, M8190-AE . > > >> > > >> I would like to try to run as many different OS's as may interest me, > > including some unixes as possible (bsd...etc). My question is, are there > > any OSes that need the floating point option? > > > > > > I know old UNIX (v2) needs a KE11-A or KE11-B (a Unibus peripheral > > > integer math option), which really wasn't something people > > > bought/installed in an 11/34 or later. v5, v6, and v7 UNIX shouldn't > > > require any sort of math hardware. > > > > I think that was typically called "EAE" (extended arithmetic element), a > > Unibus peripheral that implemented integer mul/div and maybe a few other > > odds and ends. RSTS V4 had optional support for that. It only applies > to > > 11/20 and 11/05 since all the other machines have the relevant > instructions > > built into the CPU. (Later versions of RSTS required that.) > > > > The EAE was also an option on the 11/40. > > At any rate, on the 11/73 and 83 CPU, the microcode emulates the floating > point instructions if an actual FPA isn't fitted, so everything should just > work (just a bit slower). > > - Josh > From ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org Thu Apr 18 03:08:16 2019 From: ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org (Andrew Luke Nesbit) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 09:08:16 +0100 Subject: Plane of core memory In-Reply-To: <52232782-5a09-bb01-b016-c697b8f43f13@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <502f788e-4f9d-06af-bbdf-a97023fe0a4e@andrewnesbit.org> <52232782-5a09-bb01-b016-c697b8f43f13@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <274049ba-516c-f917-2c29-80b35b2727d9@andrewnesbit.org> On 18/04/2019 05:47, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > If you just want core memory, check out the following link: > > Link - Core Memory Shield for Arduino > ?- https://www.tindie.com/products/kilpelaj/core-memory-shield-for-arduino/ > > You can actually use Core Memory on a modern computer.? }:-) This is great and I will look into this. But my original request was for something a little bit different. That is, a properly specified core memory plane in working condition, because I would very much like to interface with it from a modern computer. > The connectors remind me of a DEC machine bus, but I don't know what the > bus name is.? I also find it odd that memory would plug into the system > bus like that. Yes, I agree. And somebody from a DEC list I'm on said that the number of connectors and their spacing isn't anything they've personally seen before. Andrew -- OpenPGP key: EB28 0338 28B7 19DA DAB0 B193 D21D 996E 883B E5B9 From bhilpert at shaw.ca Thu Apr 18 04:49:44 2019 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 02:49:44 -0700 Subject: Plane of core memory In-Reply-To: <52232782-5a09-bb01-b016-c697b8f43f13@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <502f788e-4f9d-06af-bbdf-a97023fe0a4e@andrewnesbit.org> <52232782-5a09-bb01-b016-c697b8f43f13@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 2019-Apr-17, at 9:47 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 4/17/19 10:30 PM, Andrew Luke Nesbit via cctalk wrote: >> Hello all, > > Hi, > >> I have been wanting to acquire a plane of magnetic core memory as a piece of computing history. My partner actually thinks they look very beautiful and says we should frame it, if we ever find a plane. > ... >> Does anybody here have any ideas? For example, what is it? Or, if you don't know, could you point me in the right direction so I can do the research myself? Thanks!! > > I have no idea. > > The connectors remind me of a DEC machine bus, but I don't know what the bus name is. I also find it odd that memory would plug into the system bus like that. It doesn't plug into a system bus, it would plug into a dedicated slot connected to other dedicated boards. There's piles of circuitry necessary for it be fully functional: decoded x/y drivers, inhibit drivers, sense amplifiers, word latch, cycle sequencer. It's a 4-wire 3D planar array. By topology and construction I would guess it date it from the 60s. Into the 70s most (American) core production had moved on to simpler weave topologies (the crosshatch sense winding, as in this unit, was very laborious to weave), (although it is not precluded from being from the 70s). From an historic perspective, the 4-wire, 3D, crosshatch sense aspects go back to the original core topology, although here the earlier physical stack for the 3rd dimension is flattened to a planar array. From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Thu Apr 18 05:02:18 2019 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 06:02:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Plane of core memory In-Reply-To: References: <502f788e-4f9d-06af-bbdf-a97023fe0a4e@andrewnesbit.org> <52232782-5a09-bb01-b016-c697b8f43f13@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <80734232.1402710.1555581738816@email.ionos.com> > > > Does anybody here have any ideas? For example, what is it? Or, if you don't know, could you point me in the right direction so I can do the research myself? Thanks!! > > I have no idea. > > > > The connectors remind me of a DEC machine bus, but I don't know what the bus name is. I also find it odd that memory would plug into the system bus like that. > I wouldn't have a clue what that came from, but here's something to consider. The seller is in Huntsville, Alabama, home of many, many military and space contractors. It could very well be from some very odd piece of very low volume military or space equipment. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Apr 18 09:56:18 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 10:56:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/83 w/FPU? Message-ID: <20190418145618.A620018C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: W2HX > i have a few CPUs available to me, a 11/23+, an 11/73 and I also have > available to me an 11/83 > I would like to try to run as many different OS's as may interest me, > including some unixes as possible (bsd...etc). Early Unixes in general will run on those machines - but not straight off the tape (since they didn't exist then, and have quirks which aren't supported). I've brought up V6 on a /23 (which must have the KTF11-A MMU chip); here: http://gunkies.org/wiki/Running_UNIX_V6_on_an_-11/23 are instructions on exactly what (minor) changes need to be made for it to run. The /73 and /83 should be subsets of that, although you'll want to start with m45.s, because those machines support the split-I-D MMU of the -11/45. (A /23 Unix binary would boot/run on them, if you don't feel like doing a special one for them.) I haven't yet tried V6 on them; if you want me to, and do a writeup, let me know. The /73 and /83 have LTC registers, so on those you won't need the LTC hack. Also, you may know this already, but if not, note that the /83 is a PMI: http://gunkies.org/wiki/Private_Memory_Interconnect machine, and _MUST_ be plugged into a Q/CD backplane _only_; plugging into a standard Q/Q backplane will _damage_ it. > would I see any improvement in performance with the FPU compared to > without it? Or does the application running need to be something like > fortran to see any perceivable difference? As someone noted, the /73 and /83 implement thefloating point instructions in microcode, so the code can't tell if the optional FPJ11 FP hardware accelerator is plugged in or not. In general, only on applications (the language is not relevant) which are heavy users of FP would you see any difference. On the /23, with no KEF11-A FPU chip plugged in, there are no floating point instructions at all, so any application which tries to use them will blow out (although under V6 there's an emulator); see here: http://gunkies.org/wiki/Setting_up_UNIX_-_Sixth_Edition and search for 'floating point' to see discussion of it). > From: Ethan Dicks > v5, v6, and v7 UNIX shouldn't require any sort of math hardware. Don't know v5/v7 in detail, but AFAIK that's accurate. V6 can _support_ FP hardware on machines which have it, and is otherwised prepared to emulate those instructions (see above). > From: Paul Koning > I think that was typically called "EAE" (extended arithmetic element), > a Unibus peripheral that implemented integer mul/div ... It only > applies to 11/20 and 11/05 since all the other machines have the > relevant instructions built into the CPU. Also the -11/04 and -11/03 were both missing the EIS; the former could use the EAE, for the latter the optional KEV11-A or KEV11-B microcode chips both provide it. > From: Josh Dersch > The EAE was also an option on the 11/40. Technically, on any UNIBUS machine; on the /40, the EIS (added instructions, not the device model of the EAE) was available via an optional board in the CPU. Noel From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Apr 18 10:47:12 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 10:47:12 -0500 Subject: Plane of core memory In-Reply-To: References: <502f788e-4f9d-06af-bbdf-a97023fe0a4e@andrewnesbit.org> <52232782-5a09-bb01-b016-c697b8f43f13@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <5CB89C00.8060807@pico-systems.com> On 04/18/2019 04:49 AM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > It's a 4-wire 3D planar array. By topology and > construction I would guess it date it from the 60s. Make that EARLY '60s. As soon as somebody figured out that you could combine the sense and inhibit wires, everybody immediately went to 3-wire planes. Jon From jim.manley at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 11:02:19 2019 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 10:02:19 -0600 Subject: Plane of core memory In-Reply-To: <80734232.1402710.1555581738816@email.ionos.com> References: <502f788e-4f9d-06af-bbdf-a97023fe0a4e@andrewnesbit.org> <52232782-5a09-bb01-b016-c697b8f43f13@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <80734232.1402710.1555581738816@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: Jussi Kilpelainen's page cited above ( https://www.tindie.com/products/kilpelaj/core-memory-shield-for-arduino/) refers to the work of Ben North and Oliver Nash to create another core memory shield for Arduino Unos. Their site inspired Jussi to create his shield kit, which can be viewed at: http://www.corememoryshield.com Ben's and Oliver's home page contains a link to the files: http://www.corememoryshield.com/Core-Memory-Shield.zip It also contains a link to a page with the detailed explanations and schematics for core memory circuitry needed to read and write to core: http://www.corememoryshield.com/report.html Wayne Holder shows how to build the most minimal circuit using an SN754410 driver IC (http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/sn754410.html, about $2.50 each for one, and a bit over $2.00 each for 10) and an Arduino Nano (about $5.00 each for one, and around $3.50 each for 10) to address one bit of core memory and, more importantly, how to expand the circuit to address larger numbers of bits/cores using more SN754410s: https://sites.google.com/site/wayneholder/one-bit-ferrite-core-memory There's enough information on Wayne's page to build the circuitry to access any arbitrary number of cores, with the number of cores/bits being addressable increasing by a factor of four for each doubling of the number of driver ICs. ePrey has lots of old core memory planes available for as little as $30 each for about 500 bits, with intact wiring (from Russia or the Ukraine, which developed much of the Soviet Union's weapons systems and advanced commercial electronics). So, you can just wire the above circuits to their pins instead of going through the hate and discontent of testing a ziplock bag of 500 ~2,000 teensy-weensy cores (from Bulgaria) to find enough with the right properties, and then having to weave your own plane. All the Best and Enjoy! Jim From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 18 11:30:28 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 09:30:28 -0700 Subject: Plane of core memory In-Reply-To: References: <502f788e-4f9d-06af-bbdf-a97023fe0a4e@andrewnesbit.org> <52232782-5a09-bb01-b016-c697b8f43f13@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <80734232.1402710.1555581738816@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <737669e0-6dd5-3e45-b3b1-a366923069b2@sydex.com> On 4/18/19 9:02 AM, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: > Jussi Kilpelainen's page cited above ( > https://www.tindie.com/products/kilpelaj/core-memory-shield-for-arduino/) > refers to the work of Ben North and Oliver Nash to create another core > memory shield for Arduino Unos. Their site inspired Jussi to create his > shield kit, which can be viewed at: > > http://www.corememoryshield.com > I remember seeing that one some time ago. Anyone with a Williams tube project? Mercury delay lines? Magnetostrictive delay memory? --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 18 11:42:59 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 09:42:59 -0700 Subject: Plane of core memory In-Reply-To: <737669e0-6dd5-3e45-b3b1-a366923069b2@sydex.com> References: <502f788e-4f9d-06af-bbdf-a97023fe0a4e@andrewnesbit.org> <52232782-5a09-bb01-b016-c697b8f43f13@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <80734232.1402710.1555581738816@email.ionos.com> <737669e0-6dd5-3e45-b3b1-a366923069b2@sydex.com> Message-ID: <95b18f0e-f60e-30fd-015c-32577f153e80@bitsavers.org> On 4/18/19 9:30 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Anyone with a Williams tube project? The 1401 guys at CHM were working on one using a real 701 tube. I don't think it was ever finished. @tubetimeus built a small core array with Bulgarian cores https://twitter.com/TubeTimeUS/status/1053424445463752704 Discussion of the EDSAC rebuild https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGEAPVCuwvY Haven't heard if anyone has tried to get one of the Russian MR lines on eBay to do anything, or if anyone has a running Packard-Bell PB-250 From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 11:59:13 2019 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 12:59:13 -0400 Subject: Plane of core memory In-Reply-To: <737669e0-6dd5-3e45-b3b1-a366923069b2@sydex.com> References: <502f788e-4f9d-06af-bbdf-a97023fe0a4e@andrewnesbit.org> <52232782-5a09-bb01-b016-c697b8f43f13@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <80734232.1402710.1555581738816@email.ionos.com> <737669e0-6dd5-3e45-b3b1-a366923069b2@sydex.com> Message-ID: Not any dec core memory stack board I know of, - fingers are not gold plated. - it is 8 bit. I could speculate it might be from a low cost system from the late 70s or early 80s but in that time, everything core was in the many thousands of dollars. On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 12:30 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 4/18/19 9:02 AM, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: > > Jussi Kilpelainen's page cited above ( > > https://www.tindie.com/products/kilpelaj/core-memory-shield-for-arduino/) > > refers to the work of Ben North and Oliver Nash to create another core > > memory shield for Arduino Unos. Their site inspired Jussi to create his > > shield kit, which can be viewed at: > > > > http://www.corememoryshield.com > > > > I remember seeing that one some time ago. > > Anyone with a Williams tube project? Mercury delay lines? > Magnetostrictive delay memory? > > --Chuck > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Apr 18 11:59:56 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 16:59:56 +0000 Subject: Plane of core memory In-Reply-To: <95b18f0e-f60e-30fd-015c-32577f153e80@bitsavers.org> References: <502f788e-4f9d-06af-bbdf-a97023fe0a4e@andrewnesbit.org> <52232782-5a09-bb01-b016-c697b8f43f13@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <80734232.1402710.1555581738816@email.ionos.com> <737669e0-6dd5-3e45-b3b1-a366923069b2@sydex.com>, <95b18f0e-f60e-30fd-015c-32577f153e80@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: My understanding was that the mercury delay lines needed periodic repairs ( not sure what the cause was but mercury does dissolve into many metals ). If I were going to make a delay line memory, I'd go with the magnetostrictive. These are practical to make. One just needs a little ingenuity and a spool of piano wire. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Al Kossow via cctalk Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2019 9:42 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Plane of core memory On 4/18/19 9:30 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Anyone with a Williams tube project? The 1401 guys at CHM were working on one using a real 701 tube. I don't think it was ever finished. @tubetimeus built a small core array with Bulgarian cores https://twitter.com/TubeTimeUS/status/1053424445463752704 Discussion of the EDSAC rebuild https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGEAPVCuwvY Haven't heard if anyone has tried to get one of the Russian MR lines on eBay to do anything, or if anyone has a running Packard-Bell PB-250 From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Apr 18 12:00:28 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 11:00:28 -0600 Subject: Plane of core memory In-Reply-To: <274049ba-516c-f917-2c29-80b35b2727d9@andrewnesbit.org> References: <502f788e-4f9d-06af-bbdf-a97023fe0a4e@andrewnesbit.org> <52232782-5a09-bb01-b016-c697b8f43f13@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <274049ba-516c-f917-2c29-80b35b2727d9@andrewnesbit.org> Message-ID: On 4/18/19 2:08 AM, Andrew Luke Nesbit wrote: > This is great and I will look into this. I'm generally not into SBCs. (I do more with virtualization than have SBCs proliferate.) But the idea of having core memory, and it working, is quite appealing to me. > But my original request was for something a little bit different. I agree that the spirit of your request was for something older. However, nothing you wrote actually dictated it. - Letter of the law vs the spirit of the law type thing. ;-) > That is, a properly specified core memory plane in working condition, > because I would very much like to interface with it from a modern > computer. Friendly nit pick (meant in good fun): What is "properly specified" in this context? That just means that you need to know where it came from. - I feel like "a shield for an Arduino (insert more model details here)" qualifies as "properly specified". It is, or very well should be, in working condition. You should be able to interface with it from an Arduino, which is very much so a modern computer. ;-) I know that it's not old. Which was not actually specified. In fact, you functionally removed the old specification by saying "? S/360 ? this is not necessary." So, IMHO it did check the hard requirements as written in your original message. :-D -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 18 12:10:43 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 10:10:43 -0700 Subject: Plane of core memory In-Reply-To: <95b18f0e-f60e-30fd-015c-32577f153e80@bitsavers.org> References: <502f788e-4f9d-06af-bbdf-a97023fe0a4e@andrewnesbit.org> <52232782-5a09-bb01-b016-c697b8f43f13@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <80734232.1402710.1555581738816@email.ionos.com> <737669e0-6dd5-3e45-b3b1-a366923069b2@sydex.com> <95b18f0e-f60e-30fd-015c-32577f153e80@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <87bb9038-8cfa-4498-cfb0-99bf376b14f7@sydex.com> On 4/18/19 9:42 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > The 1401 guys at CHM were working on one using a real 701 tube. > I don't think it was ever finished. I don't expect that any EBAM has survived--I think all of the stuff I saw at CDC ADL was scrapped. Seems that the technology is all but forgotten today: https://bit.ly/2KOOl82 It's mentioned in a proposal by Neil Lincoln back in the 1970s: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19770084287.pdf I've long thought that a scan converter tube (e.g. 7912) might make a good electrostatic memory. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Apr 18 12:13:26 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 13:13:26 -0400 Subject: Plane of core memory In-Reply-To: <5CB89C00.8060807@pico-systems.com> References: <502f788e-4f9d-06af-bbdf-a97023fe0a4e@andrewnesbit.org> <52232782-5a09-bb01-b016-c697b8f43f13@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <5CB89C00.8060807@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <6E2BDCDD-532E-48FA-B725-E2A26CD186DE@comcast.net> > On Apr 18, 2019, at 11:47 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > On 04/18/2019 04:49 AM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: >> It's a 4-wire 3D planar array. By topology and construction I would guess it date it from the 60s. > Make that EARLY '60s. As soon as somebody figured out that you could combine the sense and inhibit wires, everybody immediately went to 3-wire planes. > > Jon Is that true even for the highest speed designs? CDC 6000 series memory is unusual in that it has 5 wires per core. Instead of the classic X, Y, Inhibit, Sense it has two inhibit wires, routed in the X and Y direction. There are four X and four Y inhibit wires, each of which run through 1/4th of the cores, so a given inhibit pair acts on 1/16th of the cores. The documentation doesn't spell out why this is done. My guess is that it makes the various driven wires more alike in how many cores they pass through. X and Y, in the 12 bit stack, pass through 64 * 12 cores. Each inhibit wire passes through 64 * 16 cores, i.e., nearly the same number. And the driver circuits for all these wires are the same. A regular full-plane inhibit wire would pass through 4k cores, meaning the inductance is far higher than that of the X and Y wires. So either the drive circuit would require a lot more power, or it would be significantly slower than the X/Y drive. As for separate sense, split inhibit obviously requires that, but even with conventional inhibit, keeping sense separate avoids the overhead of switching the signal path between two very different bits of circuitry. Compared to many other core memory designs of that same era, the 6000 memory is quite fast, with access times of a few hundred nanoseconds and full cycle (read plus restore) in one microsecond. Actually, comfortably under 1 microsecond, allowing for magic like read and update in one cycle (for the exchange instruction in the CPU) or read and write new data in one cycle via the ALU data path (in the PPUs). I suspect the unusual core plane design was a factor in making this speed possible. paul From blstuart at bellsouth.net Thu Apr 18 12:14:58 2019 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 17:14:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Plane of core memory References: <1851001905.1586704.1555607698696.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1851001905.1586704.1555607698696@mail.yahoo.com> On Thu, 4/18/19, dwight via cctalk wrote: > My understanding was that the mercury delay lines > needed periodic repairs ( not sure what the cause > was but mercury does dissolve into many metals ). > If I were going to make a delay line memory, I'd go with > the magnetostrictive. These are practical to make. One just > needs a little ingenuity and a spool of piano wire. > Dwight Or still do a fluid one, but take Turing's suggestion and use gin as the medium. BLS From brain at jbrain.com Thu Apr 18 12:19:09 2019 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 12:19:09 -0500 Subject: Plane of core memory In-Reply-To: <87bb9038-8cfa-4498-cfb0-99bf376b14f7@sydex.com> References: <502f788e-4f9d-06af-bbdf-a97023fe0a4e@andrewnesbit.org> <52232782-5a09-bb01-b016-c697b8f43f13@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <80734232.1402710.1555581738816@email.ionos.com> <737669e0-6dd5-3e45-b3b1-a366923069b2@sydex.com> <95b18f0e-f60e-30fd-015c-32577f153e80@bitsavers.org> <87bb9038-8cfa-4498-cfb0-99bf376b14f7@sydex.com> Message-ID: I am the enviable owners of a plane of memory (procured a few years back at VCF-East, when there were a bunch of 32K? boards int he consignment pile. (Sorry, not currently interested in selling :-) But, I am thankful for the links, as I have wanted to interface this with a CPU or PC of some kind. A few questions, though: * Is there a way to "read" the core non destructively using any kind of passive method (I know, it would be tedious, no doubt, but I just feel like I should "backup" the core before I go messing with it)? * Along with the above, might there be a way to extend the passive read to be a worthy "exhibit" I could take to shows? Core memory is impressive just to look at, but reading it out using the PC and displaying the contents is so easy to fake that I think people will assume the core memory is not really being used.? Some way of showing the actual magnetic changes in a small matrix (the large plane I have is probably not a good candidate unless there is a way to show such minute cores fields) would I think make the exhibit far more interesting, especially if I arranged the grid in a square and created a really slow version of something like "Tetris" on the plane. Ideas appreciated. Jim From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 18 12:23:22 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 10:23:22 -0700 Subject: Plane of core memory In-Reply-To: <87bb9038-8cfa-4498-cfb0-99bf376b14f7@sydex.com> References: <502f788e-4f9d-06af-bbdf-a97023fe0a4e@andrewnesbit.org> <52232782-5a09-bb01-b016-c697b8f43f13@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <80734232.1402710.1555581738816@email.ionos.com> <737669e0-6dd5-3e45-b3b1-a366923069b2@sydex.com> <95b18f0e-f60e-30fd-015c-32577f153e80@bitsavers.org> <87bb9038-8cfa-4498-cfb0-99bf376b14f7@sydex.com> Message-ID: <82130f28-b8b1-2fb0-b3ef-954ab874dd78@sydex.com> My mention of electron-beam memory devices left off GE's BEAMOS and RCA's Selectron. WikiPedia has a nice article on the Selectron, but BEAMOS took a bit of looking: http://rcaselectron.com/GEBEAMOS.html Too bad that neither RCA nor GE were in the computer business in 1978. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 12:28:10 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 13:28:10 -0400 Subject: Plane of core memory In-Reply-To: <87bb9038-8cfa-4498-cfb0-99bf376b14f7@sydex.com> References: <502f788e-4f9d-06af-bbdf-a97023fe0a4e@andrewnesbit.org> <52232782-5a09-bb01-b016-c697b8f43f13@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <80734232.1402710.1555581738816@email.ionos.com> <737669e0-6dd5-3e45-b3b1-a366923069b2@sydex.com> <95b18f0e-f60e-30fd-015c-32577f153e80@bitsavers.org> <87bb9038-8cfa-4498-cfb0-99bf376b14f7@sydex.com> Message-ID: > I don't expect that any EBAM has survived--I think all of the stuff I > saw at CDC ADL was scrapped. Seems that the technology is all but > forgotten today: > > https://bit.ly/2KOOl82 How was the CDC EBAM different from the other memory tubes, like the Radechon? -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 12:31:47 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 13:31:47 -0400 Subject: Plane of core memory In-Reply-To: References: <502f788e-4f9d-06af-bbdf-a97023fe0a4e@andrewnesbit.org> <52232782-5a09-bb01-b016-c697b8f43f13@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <80734232.1402710.1555581738816@email.ionos.com> <737669e0-6dd5-3e45-b3b1-a366923069b2@sydex.com> <95b18f0e-f60e-30fd-015c-32577f153e80@bitsavers.org> <87bb9038-8cfa-4498-cfb0-99bf376b14f7@sydex.com> Message-ID: > (Sorry, not currently interested in selling :-) Well, I am. And I have a LOT of 8K core system modules (planes and drivers) from old Stewart-Warner (I think) vector graphics terminals from the 1960s. Check Ebay in a week or three... -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 12:32:58 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 13:32:58 -0400 Subject: Plane of core memory In-Reply-To: <1851001905.1586704.1555607698696@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1851001905.1586704.1555607698696.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1851001905.1586704.1555607698696@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Or still do a fluid one, but take Turing's suggestion > and use gin as the medium. Better use some good error correction. -- Will From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Apr 18 12:33:54 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 17:33:54 +0000 Subject: Plane of core memory In-Reply-To: References: <502f788e-4f9d-06af-bbdf-a97023fe0a4e@andrewnesbit.org> <52232782-5a09-bb01-b016-c697b8f43f13@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <80734232.1402710.1555581738816@email.ionos.com> <737669e0-6dd5-3e45-b3b1-a366923069b2@sydex.com> <95b18f0e-f60e-30fd-015c-32577f153e80@bitsavers.org> <87bb9038-8cfa-4498-cfb0-99bf376b14f7@sydex.com>, Message-ID: I don't believe there is a simple non-destructive way to read the state. If you could remove the cores, I believe you could put each core in a weak magnetic field. As the field passes from side to side, one should be able to determine the direction of the saturated cores because one side would allow more of the field to enter the core while the other side would act as non-magnetic. As for reading the data, you'd need to experiment to determine the minimum current that particular core required to flip a bit. With careful adjusting, I suspect one could sample the first bit. Once knowing the levels used, the entire array can be read. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Jim Brain via cctalk Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2019 10:19 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Plane of core memory I am the enviable owners of a plane of memory (procured a few years back at VCF-East, when there were a bunch of 32K? boards int he consignment pile. (Sorry, not currently interested in selling :-) But, I am thankful for the links, as I have wanted to interface this with a CPU or PC of some kind. A few questions, though: * Is there a way to "read" the core non destructively using any kind of passive method (I know, it would be tedious, no doubt, but I just feel like I should "backup" the core before I go messing with it)? * Along with the above, might there be a way to extend the passive read to be a worthy "exhibit" I could take to shows? Core memory is impressive just to look at, but reading it out using the PC and displaying the contents is so easy to fake that I think people will assume the core memory is not really being used. Some way of showing the actual magnetic changes in a small matrix (the large plane I have is probably not a good candidate unless there is a way to show such minute cores fields) would I think make the exhibit far more interesting, especially if I arranged the grid in a square and created a really slow version of something like "Tetris" on the plane. Ideas appreciated. Jim From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 18 12:57:10 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 10:57:10 -0700 Subject: Plane of core memory In-Reply-To: References: <502f788e-4f9d-06af-bbdf-a97023fe0a4e@andrewnesbit.org> <52232782-5a09-bb01-b016-c697b8f43f13@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <80734232.1402710.1555581738816@email.ionos.com> <737669e0-6dd5-3e45-b3b1-a366923069b2@sydex.com> <95b18f0e-f60e-30fd-015c-32577f153e80@bitsavers.org> <87bb9038-8cfa-4498-cfb0-99bf376b14f7@sydex.com> Message-ID: <57169264-4932-573c-73ff-1a10336a00a2@bitsavers.org> On 4/18/19 10:33 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > I don't believe there is a simple non-destructive way to read the state. https://patents.google.com/patent/US3924248 From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Apr 18 12:56:43 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 17:56:43 +0000 Subject: Digital Standard Mumps Message-ID: Does anyone know what the current status of this might be? I am fairly certain Mentec didn't get this and I am not sure anyone did. Did it merely die when everyone thought Mumps was on the down hill slide? Was it ever really a DEC product or was it something DEC picked up along the way after Mass General let it out of its cage? bill From drb at msu.edu Thu Apr 18 13:15:59 2019 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 14:15:59 -0400 Subject: Plane of core memory In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 18 Apr 2019 12:19:09 -0500.) References: <502f788e-4f9d-06af-bbdf-a97023fe0a4e@andrewnesbit.org> <52232782-5a09-bb01-b016-c697b8f43f13@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <80734232.1402710.1555581738816@email.ionos.com> <737669e0-6dd5-3e45-b3b1-a366923069b2@sydex.com> <95b18f0e-f60e-30fd-015c-32577f153e80@bitsavers.org> <87bb9038-8cfa-4498-cfb0-99bf376b14f7@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20190418181600.37A411AEE40@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > * Is there a way to "read" the core non destructively using any kind > of passive method (I know, it would be tedious, no doubt, but I just > feel like I should "backup" the core before I go messing with it)? I'm having trouble figuring out what typical magnetic field strengths on the cores would be, but I wonder if you could wave some ferrofluid over individual cores and get movement. Some ferrofluid particles are apparently on the order of 10 nM in diameter, so wouldn't be all that hard to move with a weak magnetic field. > * Along with the above, might there be a way to extend the passive > read to be a worthy "exhibit" I could take to shows? Core memory is > impressive just to look at, but reading it out using the PC and > displaying the contents is so easy to fake that I think people will > assume the core memory is not really being used. Some way of > showing the actual magnetic changes in a small matrix (the large > plane I have is probably not a good candidate unless there is a way > to show such minute cores fields) would I think make the exhibit far > more interesting, especially if I arranged the grid in a square and > created a really slow version of something like "Tetris" on the plane. Showing the read pulse and sense transition waveforms on a 'scope might be of some interest. De From allisonportable at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 13:19:14 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 14:19:14 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/83 w/FPU? In-Reply-To: <20190418145618.A620018C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190418145618.A620018C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <7873d8d2-6ab7-d7d6-8be3-6b1ded5074b3@gmail.com> On 04/18/2019 10:56 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: W2HX > > > i have a few CPUs available to me, a 11/23+, an 11/73 and I also have > > available to me an 11/83 > > I would like to try to run as many different OS's as may interest me, > > including some unixes as possible (bsd...etc). > > Early Unixes in general will run on those machines - but not straight off the > tape (since they didn't exist then, and have quirks which aren't supported). > > I've brought up V6 on a /23 (which must have the KTF11-A MMU chip); here: > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/Running_UNIX_V6_on_an_-11/23 > > are instructions on exactly what (minor) changes need to be made for it to > run. > > The /73 and /83 should be subsets of that, although you'll want to start with > m45.s, because those machines support the split-I-D MMU of the -11/45. (A /23 > Unix binary would boot/run on them, if you don't feel like doing a special one > for them.) I haven't yet tried V6 on them; if you want me to, and do a > writeup, let me know. The /73 and /83 have LTC registers, so on those you > won't need the LTC hack. > > Also, you may know this already, but if not, note that the /83 is a PMI: > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/Private_Memory_Interconnect > > machine, and _MUST_ be plugged into a Q/CD backplane _only_; plugging into > a standard Q/Q backplane will _damage_ it. > > > > would I see any improvement in performance with the FPU compared to > > without it? Or does the application running need to be something like > > fortran to see any perceivable difference? > > As someone noted, the /73 and /83 implement thefloating point instructions in > microcode, so the code can't tell if the optional FPJ11 FP hardware > accelerator is plugged in or not. In general, only on applications (the > language is not relevant) which are heavy users of FP would you see any > difference. > > On the /23, with no KEF11-A FPU chip plugged in, there are no floating point > instructions at all, so any application which tries to use them will blow out > (although under V6 there's an emulator); see here: > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/Setting_up_UNIX_-_Sixth_Edition > > and search for 'floating point' to see discussion of it). > > > > From: Ethan Dicks > > > v5, v6, and v7 UNIX shouldn't require any sort of math hardware. > > Don't know v5/v7 in detail, but AFAIK that's accurate. V6 can _support_ > FP hardware on machines which have it, and is otherwised prepared to > emulate those instructions (see above). > > > From: Paul Koning > > > I think that was typically called "EAE" (extended arithmetic element), > > a Unibus peripheral that implemented integer mul/div ... It only > > applies to 11/20 and 11/05 since all the other machines have the > > relevant instructions built into the CPU. > > Also the -11/04 and -11/03 were both missing the EIS; the former could use > the EAE, for the latter the optional KEV11-A or KEV11-B microcode chips both > provide it. > > > From: Josh Dersch > > > The EAE was also an option on the 11/40. > > Technically, on any UNIBUS machine; on the /40, the EIS (added instructions, > not the device model of the EAE) was available via an optional board in > the CPU. > > Noel All, Experience is that an 11/23 or 23+ will run V6 as mine does.? REason it does is V6 does not require I&D support The usual issue is not FPU for Unix as questioned but if there is a need for I&D spaces.? The 11/23 (f11 chipset) does not support that but the J11 (11/73 and 11/83) do support that.? I have a 11/73 so I could run BSD and a few others commonly found that require I&D support. There may be other versions that place less of a burden on requiring I&D. However I've not encountered a need for FPU connected to OS.? Also the assumption for many unix is MMU support but not all DEC OS have that requirement. Allison From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Apr 18 13:27:26 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 14:27:26 -0400 Subject: Digital Standard Mumps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <07433C1E-D191-43DD-807B-BA73E27B1AEA@comcast.net> > On Apr 18, 2019, at 1:56 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > > Does anyone know what the current status of this might be? I am > fairly certain Mentec didn't get this and I am not sure anyone > did. Did it merely die when everyone thought Mumps was on the > down hill slide? Was it ever really a DEC product or was it > something DEC picked up along the way after Mass General let it > out of its cage? I'm pretty sure it was a DEC product. For that matter, it was used as the foundation for at least one DEC product. When I joined DEC in 1978, the group next to mine (Typeset-11) was the Assist-11 product team. Assist-11 was a turnkey product for phone company directory assistance, allowing names to be looked up in a large (million or so entries) database quickly. I have a clear memory that this was built on top of DSM-11. Curiously, a data sheet I recently saw for Assist-11 says it runs on top of RSTS. I'm puzzled by that, because my memory is that DSM-11 is an operating system all its own, not just a language processor running on top of a standard OS like RSTS. Perhaps it was a separate OS at first and over time it was turned into a language subsystem on RSTS? Apart from running into the Assist-11 team once or twice around 1978, I never had any other exposure to that or any other aspect of DSM-11. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Apr 18 13:34:02 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 14:34:02 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/83 w/FPU? In-Reply-To: <7873d8d2-6ab7-d7d6-8be3-6b1ded5074b3@gmail.com> References: <20190418145618.A620018C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7873d8d2-6ab7-d7d6-8be3-6b1ded5074b3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9D3F02EB-A113-43D0-B933-0A061E4662BB@comcast.net> > On Apr 18, 2019, at 2:19 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: > > ... > There may be other versions that place less of a burden on requiring I&D. > However I've not encountered a need for FPU connected to OS. Also > the assumption for many unix is MMU support but not all DEC OS have > that requirement. Indeed. MMU required: RSTS/E, RSX-11/M+, RSX-11/D, IAS, RT-11/XM. Also RSX-11/M ? Not required: RSTS-11, DOS-11, RT-11/SJ and /FB, RSX-11/S, MicroPower/Pascal, IOX, CAPS-11. paul From dan at decodesystems.com Thu Apr 18 13:41:05 2019 From: dan at decodesystems.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 14:41:05 -0400 Subject: Digital Standard Mumps In-Reply-To: <07433C1E-D191-43DD-807B-BA73E27B1AEA@comcast.net> References: <07433C1E-D191-43DD-807B-BA73E27B1AEA@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 4/18/2019 2:27 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > my memory is that DSM-11 is an operating system all its own, not just a language processor running on top of a standard OS like RSTS. In the late 1980s and early 1990s, we used DSM running on VMS 4.7 for a nationwide (United States) mortgage credit reporting system. Cheers, Dan From imp at bsdimp.com Thu Apr 18 14:06:19 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 13:06:19 -0600 Subject: Digital Standard Mumps In-Reply-To: References: <07433C1E-D191-43DD-807B-BA73E27B1AEA@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 12:41 PM Dan Veeneman via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 4/18/2019 2:27 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > my memory is that DSM-11 is an operating system all its own, not just a > language processor running on top of a standard OS like RSTS. > > In the late 1980s and early 1990s, we used DSM running on VMS 4.7 for a > nationwide (United States) mortgage credit reporting system. > The big claim to fame for RSTS/e was I thought that it let you load 'foreign' executives so you could run RT-11 or RSX-11 or whatever binaries all on one system. I'd imagine DSM-11 images would be easy if it were a real OS. I'd always thought of RSTS/e as a poor-man's hypervisor. But maybe I'm misremembering how much it could do... Warner From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Apr 18 14:07:17 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 19:07:17 +0000 Subject: Digital Standard Mumps In-Reply-To: References: <07433C1E-D191-43DD-807B-BA73E27B1AEA@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 4/18/19 2:41 PM, Dan Veeneman wrote: > On 4/18/2019 2:27 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> my memory is that DSM-11 is an operating system all its own, not just a language processor running on top of a standard OS like RSTS. > > In the late 1980s and early 1990s, we used DSM running on VMS 4.7 for a > nationwide (United States) mortgage credit reporting system. > DSM-11 on the PDP-11 was an OS all its own. I just looked in my Software Handbook and on the VAX it was a VMS Language Processor. That's pretty much what it has become today although it did start out as a complete system running on bare iron. bill From bhilpert at shaw.ca Thu Apr 18 14:34:25 2019 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 12:34:25 -0700 Subject: Plane of core memory In-Reply-To: <5CB89C00.8060807@pico-systems.com> References: <502f788e-4f9d-06af-bbdf-a97023fe0a4e@andrewnesbit.org> <52232782-5a09-bb01-b016-c697b8f43f13@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <5CB89C00.8060807@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <760EDC85-A520-488C-B7DD-A64DAAD381AD@shaw.ca> On 2019-Apr-18, at 8:47 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 04/18/2019 04:49 AM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: >> It's a 4-wire 3D planar array. By topology and construction I would guess it date it from the 60s. > Make that EARLY '60s. As soon as somebody figured out that you could combine the sense and inhibit wires, everybody immediately went to 3-wire planes. Well, not everybody - I have a 4-wire, diagonal-sense module with IC date codes extending from 1974 to 1978. Certainly it's an outlier, on the tail-end of the distribution curve of production of such design, but that's why I expressed dating it to the 60s as a likelihood, not an absolute surety. (The ICs are 711 comparators and diode arrays. The 711 does go back to at least 1969 so it's conceivable the design of the module goes back to the late 60s, although that's seems less likely considering production into 1978.) From bhilpert at shaw.ca Thu Apr 18 15:01:45 2019 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 13:01:45 -0700 Subject: Plane of core memory In-Reply-To: <737669e0-6dd5-3e45-b3b1-a366923069b2@sydex.com> References: <502f788e-4f9d-06af-bbdf-a97023fe0a4e@andrewnesbit.org> <52232782-5a09-bb01-b016-c697b8f43f13@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <80734232.1402710.1555581738816@email.ionos.com> <737669e0-6dd5-3e45-b3b1-a366923069b2@sydex.com> Message-ID: <89A4D278-C2E4-4DAF-85BB-EBFB159CCE1E@shaw.ca> On 2019-Apr-18, at 9:30 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 4/18/19 9:02 AM, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: >> Jussi Kilpelainen's page cited above ( >> https://www.tindie.com/products/kilpelaj/core-memory-shield-for-arduino/) >> refers to the work of Ben North and Oliver Nash to create another core >> memory shield for Arduino Unos. Their site inspired Jussi to create his >> shield kit, which can be viewed at: >> >> http://www.corememoryshield.com >> > > I remember seeing that one some time ago. > > Anyone with a Williams tube project? Mercury delay lines? > Magnetostrictive delay memory? - The Manchester Baby replica recreated Williams tube memory (aka Williams-Kilburn tube memory). Williams tube memory uses conventional oscope CRTs, so it wasn't that difficult. (i.e. it's Williams 'tube memory', rather than 'Williams tube' memory.) Holding-beam CRT memory ala Whirlwind would be another matter as the tubes were highly specialised. - The EDSAC replica is using a new-production magnetostrictive delay-line memory to substitute for the mercury tanks. From what I've seen of it (utube), it's a standard MR looped-wire design using modern components and production techniques. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Apr 18 15:15:58 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 16:15:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Plane of core memory Message-ID: <20190418201558.C3B1E18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jon Elson > As soon as somebody figured out that you could combine the sense and > inhibit wires, everybody immediately went to 3-wire planes. I"m suprised the idea wasn't patented. Or maybe it was, and they made the license widely available at modest terms? Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Apr 18 15:19:50 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 16:19:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/83 w/FPU? Message-ID: <20190418201950.6A66618C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Allison > Experience is that an 11/23 or 23+ will run V6 as mine does. What changes did you make to get it to run? (I assume the stock binary wouldn't run.) Noel From allisonportable at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 16:38:12 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 17:38:12 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/83 w/FPU? In-Reply-To: <20190418201950.6A66618C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190418201950.6A66618C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <44d7f960-2020-a889-4ddf-01b1152b1bb8@gmail.com> On 04/18/2019 04:19 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Allison > > > Experience is that an 11/23 or 23+ will run V6 as mine does. > > What changes did you make to get it to run? (I assume the stock binary > wouldn't run.) > > Noel The hardest part was was getting it on a RL02 from the PUPs library. The binary was stock for that device, its only been maybe 15 or more years. V6 was low enough in requirements that a valid mass storage was the big thing. Choices were RK05, RL01/02, and maybe RX01(way too small). Allison From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 17:07:38 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 23:07:38 +0100 Subject: Plane of core memory In-Reply-To: <737669e0-6dd5-3e45-b3b1-a366923069b2@sydex.com> References: <502f788e-4f9d-06af-bbdf-a97023fe0a4e@andrewnesbit.org> <52232782-5a09-bb01-b016-c697b8f43f13@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <80734232.1402710.1555581738816@email.ionos.com> <737669e0-6dd5-3e45-b3b1-a366923069b2@sydex.com> Message-ID: <184101d4f633$23c42890$6b4c79b0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis via > cctalk > Sent: 18 April 2019 17:30 > To: Jim Manley via cctalk > Subject: Re: Plane of core memory > > On 4/18/19 9:02 AM, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: > > Jussi Kilpelainen's page cited above ( > > https://www.tindie.com/products/kilpelaj/core-memory-shield-for-arduin > > o/) refers to the work of Ben North and Oliver Nash to create another > > core memory shield for Arduino Unos. Their site inspired Jussi to > > create his shield kit, which can be viewed at: > > > > http://www.corememoryshield.com > > > > I remember seeing that one some time ago. > > Anyone with a Williams tube project? Mercury delay lines? Whilst MSI Manchester run the Manchester Baby replica several days a week, and it does have (mostly) working Williams tubes, its often operated on semi-conductor memory as that allows us to talk to visitors, and not have to keep tweaking the store. The EDSAC replica at TNMOC uses delay lines as a ton of Mercury was too expensive and had health and safety implications. > Magnetostrictive delay memory? > > --Chuck Dave Dave From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 17:22:10 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 18:22:10 -0400 Subject: Plane of core memory In-Reply-To: References: <502f788e-4f9d-06af-bbdf-a97023fe0a4e@andrewnesbit.org> <52232782-5a09-bb01-b016-c697b8f43f13@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <80734232.1402710.1555581738816@email.ionos.com> <737669e0-6dd5-3e45-b3b1-a366923069b2@sydex.com> <95b18f0e-f60e-30fd-015c-32577f153e80@bitsavers.org> <87bb9038-8cfa-4498-cfb0-99bf376b14f7@sydex.com> Message-ID: >Stewart-Warner (I think) vector graphics terminals > from the 1960s. Check Ebay in a week or three... Correction: Hazeltine. -- Will From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Apr 18 18:11:35 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 19:11:35 -0400 Subject: Digital Standard Mumps In-Reply-To: References: <07433C1E-D191-43DD-807B-BA73E27B1AEA@comcast.net> Message-ID: <823E4AFD-5ACC-4768-B166-E16EB3A2C468@comcast.net> > On Apr 18, 2019, at 3:06 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 12:41 PM Dan Veeneman via cctalk wrote: > On 4/18/2019 2:27 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > my memory is that DSM-11 is an operating system all its own, not just a language processor running on top of a standard OS like RSTS. > > In the late 1980s and early 1990s, we used DSM running on VMS 4.7 for a > nationwide (United States) mortgage credit reporting system. > > The big claim to fame for RSTS/e was I thought that it let you load 'foreign' executives so you could run RT-11 or RSX-11 or whatever binaries all on one system. I'd imagine DSM-11 images would be easy if it were a real OS. I'd always thought of RSTS/e as a poor-man's hypervisor. But maybe I'm misremembering how much it could do... Poor man's hypervisor, I like that. That's reasonably accurate. RSTS/E had "run-time systems", originally the interpreter, support library, and user interface of the BASIC-PLUS language machinery. Starting in, I think, RSTS/E V5B, it was generalized step by step to become a collection of such things: a user interface, execution environment, and other stuff. It might be very narrowly tailored, like the TECO run-time system, it might be the interpreter library for a language, like the FORTH and ALGOL run-time systems, or it might be a fairly complete emulation of a different OS, like the RT11 and RSX run-time systems. I first used a very primitive version of this feature in V5B around 1975, to run an assembly language program before there was any general RSTS support for doing that. paul From imp at bsdimp.com Thu Apr 18 18:41:49 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 17:41:49 -0600 Subject: Digital Standard Mumps In-Reply-To: <823E4AFD-5ACC-4768-B166-E16EB3A2C468@comcast.net> References: <07433C1E-D191-43DD-807B-BA73E27B1AEA@comcast.net> <823E4AFD-5ACC-4768-B166-E16EB3A2C468@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 5:11 PM Paul Koning wrote: > > > > On Apr 18, 2019, at 3:06 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 12:41 PM Dan Veeneman via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On 4/18/2019 2:27 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > my memory is that DSM-11 is an operating system all its own, not just > a language processor running on top of a standard OS like RSTS. > > > > In the late 1980s and early 1990s, we used DSM running on VMS 4.7 for a > > nationwide (United States) mortgage credit reporting system. > > > > The big claim to fame for RSTS/e was I thought that it let you load > 'foreign' executives so you could run RT-11 or RSX-11 or whatever binaries > all on one system. I'd imagine DSM-11 images would be easy if it were a > real OS. I'd always thought of RSTS/e as a poor-man's hypervisor. But maybe > I'm misremembering how much it could do... > > Poor man's hypervisor, I like that. > > That's reasonably accurate. RSTS/E had "run-time systems", originally the > interpreter, support library, and user interface of the BASIC-PLUS language > machinery. Starting in, I think, RSTS/E V5B, it was generalized step by > step to become a collection of such things: a user interface, execution > environment, and other stuff. It might be very narrowly tailored, like the > TECO run-time system, it might be the interpreter library for a language, > like the FORTH and ALGOL run-time systems, or it might be a fairly complete > emulation of a different OS, like the RT11 and RSX run-time systems. > I know I ran BASIC-Plus, TECO and RT-11 binaries (FORTRAN code) on the RSTS/E system I started out on (6C or 7.0, iirc). We also had some RSX-11 binaries too for something I've long-ago forgotten. > I first used a very primitive version of this feature in V5B around 1975, > to run an assembly language program before there was any general RSTS > support for doing that. > Yea, I couldn't recall if it was tailored or generic. I think it was, as you say, tailored from massaged versions of the original executives, iirc, but maybe they were reimplementations like the crazy glue code that we had at university that was an RT-11 .SAV file with some weird glue to make it run in 7th Edition Unix that we ran on a VAX 11/750 using the pdp-11 emulator hardware it had... Warner From jpw at chivanet.org Thu Apr 18 18:54:20 2019 From: jpw at chivanet.org (John Willis) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 17:54:20 -0600 Subject: Digital Standard Mumps In-Reply-To: <823E4AFD-5ACC-4768-B166-E16EB3A2C468@comcast.net> References: <07433C1E-D191-43DD-807B-BA73E27B1AEA@comcast.net> <823E4AFD-5ACC-4768-B166-E16EB3A2C468@comcast.net> Message-ID: <70D08B45-CFDD-4649-8650-CB5B946110D9@chivanet.org> DSM went to InterSystems Corp. during their spree of buying up every MUMPS implementation vendor they could get their hands on. They got DataTree (DTM), Micronetics (MSM), and DSM. They already had ISM. They merged ISM and features from the others into OpenM, which evolved into Cach?, their current MUMPS product. M21, GT.M, MUMPSv1, FreeM, YottaDB, and Mumps-II remain independent and current as of today. I'm the station chair for the validation and testing suite for the MUMPS Development Committee, which is the organization responsible for the ISO and formerly ANSI standards for the language. From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Apr 18 18:58:10 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 19:58:10 -0400 Subject: Digital Standard Mumps In-Reply-To: References: <07433C1E-D191-43DD-807B-BA73E27B1AEA@comcast.net> <823E4AFD-5ACC-4768-B166-E16EB3A2C468@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Apr 18, 2019, at 7:41 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > >> On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 5:11 PM Paul Koning wrote: >> >> ... >> Poor man's hypervisor, I like that. >> >> That's reasonably accurate. RSTS/E had "run-time systems", originally the interpreter, support library, and user interface of the BASIC-PLUS language machinery. Starting in, I think, RSTS/E V5B, it was generalized step by step to become a collection of such things: a user interface, execution environment, and other stuff. It might be very narrowly tailored, like the TECO run-time system, it might be the interpreter library for a language, like the FORTH and ALGOL run-time systems, or it might be a fairly complete emulation of a different OS, like the RT11 and RSX run-time systems. >> >> I know I ran BASIC-Plus, TECO and RT-11 binaries (FORTRAN code) on the RSTS/E system I started out on (6C or 7.0, iirc). We also had some RSX-11 binaries too for something I've long-ago forgotten. >> >> I first used a very primitive version of this feature in V5B around 1975, to run an assembly language program before there was any general RSTS support for doing that. >> > Yea, I couldn't recall if it was tailored or generic. I think it was, as you say, tailored from massaged versions of the original executives, iirc, but maybe they were reimplementations like the crazy glue code that we had at university that was an RT-11 .SAV file with some weird glue to make it run in 7th Edition Unix that we ran on a VAX 11/750 using the pdp-11 emulator hardware it had... > > Warner Each runtime system was a separate construct. The kernel has a number of services to enable various things that need to be done, though. Here are a few. 1. Each executable file has an attribute naming the runtime system that will execute it. For example, PIP.SAV would be handled by the RT11 runtime system not because of the .SAV extension but because of the runtime system setting. This is vague like the #! line in Unix shell scripts. 2. Various exceptions and interrupts during execution would be directed by the kernel to "pseudo-vectors" in the currently active runtime system. For example, traps to 4 or 10 or breakpoint traps would be handled that way, as would control/C interrupts. 3. The RSTS/E kernel uses EMT for syscalls, but any unknown syscall would go to the EMT pseudo-vector. This directly enables RSX emulation because that uses a non-RSTS EMT (377). But RT11 uses many of the same EMT codes that RSTS does, so there an escape technique was used ("prefix EMT"). If RSTS saw EMT 377 with another EMT in the next word, it would handle that as a kernel request. Any other EMT (not preceded by 377) would go to the RT11 runtime system. So EMT 0 is an RT11 request, EMT 377; EMT 0 is a RSTS kernel request. I think the code in the runtime system would typically not be the original OS code or taken from it. Exceptions might be things like the executable file loader. But syscall handling is different partly because it isn't concerned with scheduling or execution blocking (those are kernel concerns) and partly because it is mapping the request to the equivalent RSTS kernel request, not to device operations or things like that. It's interesting that no Unix RTS was attempted that I know of. Perhaps that was too hard because the OS services are so different (nothing like fork or pipe in RSTS, which would be a concern). Even so, one of the RSTS developers converted csh into a runtime system, so you could run shell scripts and csh command parsing -- but the programs would still be DEC programs, not Unix ones. Unfortunately that code has been lost as far as I know. paul From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 20:01:26 2019 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 21:01:26 -0400 Subject: Plane of core memory In-Reply-To: <6E2BDCDD-532E-48FA-B725-E2A26CD186DE@comcast.net> References: <502f788e-4f9d-06af-bbdf-a97023fe0a4e@andrewnesbit.org> <52232782-5a09-bb01-b016-c697b8f43f13@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <5CB89C00.8060807@pico-systems.com> <6E2BDCDD-532E-48FA-B725-E2A26CD186DE@comcast.net> Message-ID: I believe I read they weaved the planes this way to minimize crosstalk, EMI or heat. =] On Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 1:13 PM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > On Apr 18, 2019, at 11:47 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On 04/18/2019 04:49 AM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > >> It's a 4-wire 3D planar array. By topology and construction I would > guess it date it from the 60s. > > Make that EARLY '60s. As soon as somebody figured out that you could > combine the sense and inhibit wires, everybody immediately went to 3-wire > planes. > > > > Jon > > Is that true even for the highest speed designs? > > CDC 6000 series memory is unusual in that it has 5 wires per core. > Instead of the classic X, Y, Inhibit, Sense it has two inhibit wires, > routed in the X and Y direction. There are four X and four Y inhibit > wires, each of which run through 1/4th of the cores, so a given inhibit > pair acts on 1/16th of the cores. > > The documentation doesn't spell out why this is done. My guess is that it > makes the various driven wires more alike in how many cores they pass > through. X and Y, in the 12 bit stack, pass through 64 * 12 cores. Each > inhibit wire passes through 64 * 16 cores, i.e., nearly the same number. > And the driver circuits for all these wires are the same. > > A regular full-plane inhibit wire would pass through 4k cores, meaning the > inductance is far higher than that of the X and Y wires. So either the > drive circuit would require a lot more power, or it would be significantly > slower than the X/Y drive. > > As for separate sense, split inhibit obviously requires that, but even > with conventional inhibit, keeping sense separate avoids the overhead of > switching the signal path between two very different bits of circuitry. > > Compared to many other core memory designs of that same era, the 6000 > memory is quite fast, with access times of a few hundred nanoseconds and > full cycle (read plus restore) in one microsecond. Actually, comfortably > under 1 microsecond, allowing for magic like read and update in one cycle > (for the exchange instruction in the CPU) or read and write new data in one > cycle via the ALU data path (in the PPUs). I suspect the unusual core > plane design was a factor in making this speed possible. > > paul > > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Apr 18 20:20:38 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 01:20:38 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/93 and PMI Memory Message-ID: Well, I was finally able to get a PMI memory board to expand my 11/93 to the full 4 Meg. (Thanks Paul!) I thought it would be as simple as configuring what bank I wanted it to fill and inserting it (in front of the CPU). Sadly, that didn't work. First problem is the only document i could find is not for the actual version of the board I have. It has the same switch sets so I tried it anyway. Set it to be in the upper 2Meg and gave it the next CSR after the on board memory. No luck. 11/93 still reports 1024KWords and the Map command shows neither the additional memory or the second memory CSR. Anybody have any experience with this? Is there a switch I have to change on the CPU module to make it recognize the additional external memory? IS there something about PMI that I am missing? Any advice gratefully appreciated. bill From bhilpert at shaw.ca Thu Apr 18 21:03:06 2019 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 19:03:06 -0700 Subject: that AGC DSKY auction In-Reply-To: <52038338-0396-4727-A853-E78E0FC53777@shaw.ca> References: <017701d4f0ed$3d7992c0$b86cb840$@gmail.com> <52038338-0396-4727-A853-E78E0FC53777@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <668456D4-1301-45CB-BBA0-BBB2987FFD1A@shaw.ca> So it appears it went for 168 K$ at hammer. With buyer's premium, that puts the sale price at 210 K$. https://www.rrauction.com/bidtracker_detail.cfm?IN=5222 From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 21:04:58 2019 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 21:04:58 -0500 Subject: that AGC DSKY auction In-Reply-To: <668456D4-1301-45CB-BBA0-BBB2987FFD1A@shaw.ca> References: <017701d4f0ed$3d7992c0$b86cb840$@gmail.com> <52038338-0396-4727-A853-E78E0FC53777@shaw.ca> <668456D4-1301-45CB-BBA0-BBB2987FFD1A@shaw.ca> Message-ID: weird this only went for 220 bucks https://www.rrauction.com/bidtracker_detail.cfm?IN=5109 On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 9:03 PM Brent Hilpert via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > So it appears it went for 168 K$ at hammer. > > With buyer's premium, that puts the sale price at 210 K$. > > https://www.rrauction.com/bidtracker_detail.cfm?IN=5222 > > > From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Apr 18 21:08:02 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 21:08:02 -0500 Subject: Plane of core memory In-Reply-To: <20190418201558.C3B1E18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190418201558.C3B1E18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5CB92D82.4010807@pico-systems.com> On 04/18/2019 03:15 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Jon Elson > > > As soon as somebody figured out that you could combine the sense and > > inhibit wires, everybody immediately went to 3-wire planes. > > I"m suprised the idea wasn't patented. Or maybe it was, and they made the > license widely available at modest terms? > > I was thinking the same thing, but can't find any references to who invented it. it certainly sounds like the sort of thing to get a patent on. Point of interest, my freshman advisor was Bill Papian, who was Jay W. Forrester's grad student when he invented coincident-current core memory. Jon From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Apr 18 23:18:26 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 04:18:26 +0000 Subject: Plane of core memory In-Reply-To: References: <502f788e-4f9d-06af-bbdf-a97023fe0a4e@andrewnesbit.org> <52232782-5a09-bb01-b016-c697b8f43f13@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <5CB89C00.8060807@pico-systems.com> <6E2BDCDD-532E-48FA-B725-E2A26CD186DE@comcast.net>, Message-ID: Although, after written, there is little magnetism lost out side of the ring, while being magnetized, there is quite a bit of stray magnetism. By placing the the rings at 90 degrees, it minimizes the magnetism induced in the adjacent ring. The fields follow the inverse square law so the effect drops off quite quickly. Also the ring tend to pull the magnetic field into the ring, at least until saturated. At that time the field can leak into a neighbor and flip its state. Not being aligned with the direction of the ring also minimizes this stray field. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Anders Nelson via cctalk Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2019 6:01 PM To: paulkoning at comcast.net; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Plane of core memory I believe I read they weaved the planes this way to minimize crosstalk, EMI or heat. =] On Thu, Apr 18, 2019, 1:13 PM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > On Apr 18, 2019, at 11:47 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On 04/18/2019 04:49 AM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > >> It's a 4-wire 3D planar array. By topology and construction I would > guess it date it from the 60s. > > Make that EARLY '60s. As soon as somebody figured out that you could > combine the sense and inhibit wires, everybody immediately went to 3-wire > planes. > > > > Jon > > Is that true even for the highest speed designs? > > CDC 6000 series memory is unusual in that it has 5 wires per core. > Instead of the classic X, Y, Inhibit, Sense it has two inhibit wires, > routed in the X and Y direction. There are four X and four Y inhibit > wires, each of which run through 1/4th of the cores, so a given inhibit > pair acts on 1/16th of the cores. > > The documentation doesn't spell out why this is done. My guess is that it > makes the various driven wires more alike in how many cores they pass > through. X and Y, in the 12 bit stack, pass through 64 * 12 cores. Each > inhibit wire passes through 64 * 16 cores, i.e., nearly the same number. > And the driver circuits for all these wires are the same. > > A regular full-plane inhibit wire would pass through 4k cores, meaning the > inductance is far higher than that of the X and Y wires. So either the > drive circuit would require a lot more power, or it would be significantly > slower than the X/Y drive. > > As for separate sense, split inhibit obviously requires that, but even > with conventional inhibit, keeping sense separate avoids the overhead of > switching the signal path between two very different bits of circuitry. > > Compared to many other core memory designs of that same era, the 6000 > memory is quite fast, with access times of a few hundred nanoseconds and > full cycle (read plus restore) in one microsecond. Actually, comfortably > under 1 microsecond, allowing for magic like read and update in one cycle > (for the exchange instruction in the CPU) or read and write new data in one > cycle via the ALU data path (in the PPUs). I suspect the unusual core > plane design was a factor in making this speed possible. > > paul > > From jsw at ieee.org Thu Apr 18 23:44:30 2019 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 23:44:30 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/93 and PMI Memory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5e563f38-2fd2-149e-1468-ef20b061b2b1@ieee.org> The second memory boards CSR should be viable in ODT. The toggle switch internal contacts may be tarnished with age. Cycle each switch, that is used in the on position, multiple times and see if the CSR appears. Try another CSR if necessary to confirm the memory board is responsive to Q-bus requests. Which memory board and rev? MSV11-JE (M8637-E)? Jerry On 4/18/19 8:20 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Well, I was finally able to get a PMI memory board to expand my > 11/93 to the full 4 Meg. (Thanks Paul!) > > I thought it would be as simple as configuring what bank I wanted > it to fill and inserting it (in front of the CPU). Sadly, that > didn't work. First problem is the only document i could find is > not for the actual version of the board I have. It has the same > switch sets so I tried it anyway. Set it to be in the upper 2Meg > and gave it the next CSR after the on board memory. No luck. > 11/93 still reports 1024KWords and the Map command shows neither > the additional memory or the second memory CSR. > > Anybody have any experience with this? Is there a switch I have to > change on the CPU module to make it recognize the additional external > memory? IS there something about PMI that I am missing? > > Any advice gratefully appreciated. > > bill From jim.manley at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 01:33:06 2019 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 00:33:06 -0600 Subject: that AGC DSKY auction In-Reply-To: References: <017701d4f0ed$3d7992c0$b86cb840$@gmail.com> <52038338-0396-4727-A853-E78E0FC53777@shaw.ca> <668456D4-1301-45CB-BBA0-BBB2987FFD1A@shaw.ca> Message-ID: Bidding hasn't ended on the display electronics, but, it's not clear when bidding will end, so, bid high and often! :D On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 8:05 PM Adrian Stoness via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > weird this only went for 220 bucks > https://www.rrauction.com/bidtracker_detail.cfm?IN=5109 > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 01:45:06 2019 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 23:45:06 -0700 Subject: Plane of core memory In-Reply-To: <5CB92D82.4010807@pico-systems.com> References: <20190418201558.C3B1E18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5CB92D82.4010807@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <40FFF3AA-20D4-453B-AC1C-E99CD62372D6@gmail.com> I believe 3 wire memory was first introduced by IBM in their 360 systems, and it was a very large development effort. They would almost certainly have patented their way to do it, but I have not checked. Marc From: cctalk on behalf of "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Reply-To: Jon Elson , "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Date: Thursday, April 18, 2019 at 7:08 PM To: Noel Chiappa , , "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Subject: Re: Plane of core memory On 04/18/2019 03:15 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > From: Jon Elson > As soon as somebody figured out that you could combine the sense and > inhibit wires, everybody immediately went to 3-wire planes. I"m suprised the idea wasn't patented. Or maybe it was, and they made the license widely available at modest terms? I was thinking the same thing, but can't find any references to who invented it. it certainly sounds like the sort of thing to get a patent on. Point of interest, my freshman advisor was Bill Papian, who was Jay W. Forrester's grad student when he invented coincident-current core memory. Jon From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Thu Apr 18 22:11:38 2019 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 20:11:38 -0700 Subject: Latest additions to Sellam's sale list Message-ID: Happy Spring, fellers! Here is the latest batch of goodies for your perusing pleasure: Amiga 3000-25/50 Commodore 1902A Monitor Daystar Digital Turbo 601 Accelerator Radius Precision Color Pro 24XK Accelerated 24-bit Graphics I/F Atari Mega ST4 Atari Mega ST Keyboard (American) HP Plotter Pens 0.3mm - 5 pen BLACK Pack (Paper) HP Plotter Pens 0.3mm - 5 pen BLUE Pack (Paper) HP Plotter Pens 0.3mm - 5 pen PURPLE Pack (Paper) HP Plotter Pens 0.3mm - 5 pen ORANGE Pack (Paper) HP Plotter Pens 0.3mm - 5 pen RED Pack (Paper) HP Plotter Pens 0.3mm - Multi-Color Custom Pack (Paper) HP Plotter Pens 0.6mm - 5 pen GREEN Pack (Transparency) HP Plotter Pens 0.6mm - 5 pen BLUE Pack (Transparency) HP Plotter Pens 0.6mm - 5 pen RED Pack (Transparency) HP Plotter Pens 0.6mm - 5 pen PURPLE Pack (Transparency) HP Plotter Pens 0.6mm - 5 pen Multi-Color Pack (Transparency) HP Plotter Pens 0.7mm - 5 pen BLACK Pack (Paper) HP Plotter Pens 0.7mm - 5 pen GREEN Pack (Paper) HP Plotter Pens 0.7mm - 5 pen BLUE Pack (Paper) HP Plotter Pens 0.7mm - 5 pen PURPLE Pack (Paper) HP Plotter Pens 0.7mm - 5 pen RED Pack (Paper) IBM PCjr with IBM PCjr Carrying Case IBM Terminal Controller Port Box IBM PS/1 Consultant Atari 520ST Atari Portfolio Technical Reference Guide HP 9815 Hayes Smartmodem 1200 Hayes Smartmodem 2400 Hayes Smartmodem OPTIMA 2400 Iomega PC800B SCSI Controller Star Micronics NX-1000 Multi-font Printer Disk interface bus monitor Electrohome TTL Color Interface Navarone Commodore 64 carthridge port expander Practical Peripherals Pocket FAX/Modem Apple StyleWriter II Sun Microsystems SPARCstation 1 Sun Microsystems SPARCstation Prototype Links to information on these items and more can be found here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit?pli=1#gid=949372371&range=A1 Photos on the latest posted items will be available later this evening. You may always inquire if you require more information on a particular item. Per standard procedure, please contact me directly via e-mail to make an offer on a particular item. Thanks! Sellam From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Apr 19 06:46:43 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 07:46:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Plane of core memory Message-ID: <20190419114643.E00C018C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Curious Marc > I believe 3 wire memory was first introduced by IBM in their 360 > systems ... They would almost certainly have patented their way to do it Correct (and your knowledge and memory is good)! Motivated by this clue, I looked in: Emerson W. Pugh, "Memories That Shaped an Industry" MIT Press, Cambridge, 1984 where the description of the invention of 3-wire core can be found on pg. 231; it was invented by a group of engineers, based on a similar idea used in Stretch. There is indeed a patent, No. 3,381,282, with six names on it. IBM must have licensed it, but there is nothing on that. I can highly recommend that book; it's in the same league as the later two books on early IBM computers from MIT Press on which he was a co-author. Noel PS: There was recent discussion here of the 8000 series; there are some details on that on pp. 189-191. From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Apr 19 08:56:14 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 09:56:14 -0400 Subject: Plane of core memory In-Reply-To: References: <502f788e-4f9d-06af-bbdf-a97023fe0a4e@andrewnesbit.org> <52232782-5a09-bb01-b016-c697b8f43f13@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <5CB89C00.8060807@pico-systems.com> <6E2BDCDD-532E-48FA-B725-E2A26CD186DE@comcast.net> Message-ID: <705DE071-598C-47CD-93E5-303BB1BA2D3F@comcast.net> > On Apr 18, 2019, at 9:01 PM, Anders Nelson wrote: > > I believe I read they weaved the planes this way to minimize crosstalk, EMI or heat. > > =] The zigzag routing, you mean? Yes, that's to minimize crosstalk. It's nicely described in a training manual for the Electrologica X1. The issue is that concident current selection send a "half-current" pulse through a whole row and column of cores. While the resulting induced current in the sense lines is small per core, it isn't zero since the hysteresis curve isn't perfectly square. If all those pulses summed up, the resulting noise would swamp the signal from the selected core. The solution is to route the sense line so it passes through the cores in a zig-zag fashion. This means half the cores in a row or column generate a pulse of one polarity while the other half produce the opposite polarity. If all cores were identical you'd end up with just two cores worth of noise. They aren't all identical, of course, but it still reduces the noise enough to avoid the problem. A similar but not identical issue appears in rope core ROM. Brent Hilpert's paper on those devices shows how it was solved there (in the AGC flavor; the ELX1 does it differently). paul From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Apr 19 09:19:20 2019 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 14:19:20 +0000 Subject: Plane of core memory In-Reply-To: References: <502f788e-4f9d-06af-bbdf-a97023fe0a4e@andrewnesbit.org> <52232782-5a09-bb01-b016-c697b8f43f13@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <5CB89C00.8060807@pico-systems.com> <6E2BDCDD-532E-48FA-B725-E2A26CD186DE@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Apr 18, 2019, at 11:18 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > > Although, after written, there is little magnetism lost out side of the ring, while being magnetized, there is quite a bit of stray magnetism. By placing the the rings at 90 degrees, it minimizes the magnetism induced in the adjacent ring. The fields follow the inverse square law so the effect drops off quite quickly. Also the ring tend to pull the magnetic field into the ring, at least until saturated. At that time the field can leak into a neighbor and flip its state. Not being aligned with the direction of the ring also minimizes this stray field. > Dwight ? inverse cube (?) ? depending on the geometry you are talking about? Real physicists please set me right if I have this wrong, but I think only radiating and static point fields (like electric or gravitational) from a finite source fall off as inverse square. That?s easy to see, it?s the same effect crossing the total area of a sphere centered at the source. Area on the sphere goes up like square of radius, so intensity has to go down like the square. Magnetic field (from a finite source) I think goes down like the cube of the distance - north and south poles of the source tend to cancel better as the apparent angle between them gets smaller, in addition to the above effect. (That is a mnemonic, not a real explanation.) On the other hand, if you were talking about field around a wire with current in it (a non-finite source, at least locally), then it *is* inverse square for the magnetic field, where inverse square refers to distance from the axis of the wire. - Mark From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 12:44:19 2019 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 12:44:19 -0500 Subject: that AGC DSKY auction In-Reply-To: References: <017701d4f0ed$3d7992c0$b86cb840$@gmail.com> <52038338-0396-4727-A853-E78E0FC53777@shaw.ca> <668456D4-1301-45CB-BBA0-BBB2987FFD1A@shaw.ca> Message-ID: didnt notice that only went for 242 On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 1:34 AM Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: > Bidding hasn't ended on the display electronics, but, it's not clear when > bidding will end, so, bid high and often! :D > > On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 8:05 PM Adrian Stoness via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > weird this only went for 220 bucks > > https://www.rrauction.com/bidtracker_detail.cfm?IN=5109 > > > From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 13:42:41 2019 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 13:42:41 -0500 Subject: Plane of core memory In-Reply-To: <502f788e-4f9d-06af-bbdf-a97023fe0a4e@andrewnesbit.org> References: <502f788e-4f9d-06af-bbdf-a97023fe0a4e@andrewnesbit.org> Message-ID: <925D192B-1C10-4A04-B66D-843245FC7523@gmail.com> I'll be curious to hear what you end up getting. I've also meant to acquire one over the years just for historical education and display sake. One thing to keep in mind, but I'm sure you're aware is the physical size. Often they're quite small. However I think eBay sellers recent years have been better about letting you know that expectation. I've also seen the large amount of Russian planes. Not too bad although like you said, I'm not sure you'd find out what system they came out of but you could always ask the seller prior to bidding. I find those and silicon wafers in a similar light of something pretty to look at. As well as an educational glimpse into explaining some history. Good luck! Sent from my Apple /////c > On Apr 17, 2019, at 11:30 PM, Andrew Luke Nesbit via cctalk wrote: > I have been wanting to acquire a plane of magnetic core memory as a > piece of computing history. My partner actually thinks they look very > beautiful and says we should frame it, if we ever find a plane. From aperry at snowmoose.com Fri Apr 19 14:46:22 2019 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 12:46:22 -0700 Subject: Care and feeding of true barn-find systems Message-ID: <7ae00d30-1d2e-8a83-e90f-901b9e1b16eb@snowmoose.com> Yesterday I rescued a Sun 3/260 that had been sitting in an open barn for years. It had been "running when parked" a dozen years ago.? It seems to have been covered by a tarp, but otherwise unprotected. All things considered, it doesn't look that bad but it is pretty rough. Any pointers on things that I should and shouldn't do as I start trying to bring it back to life? alan From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 15:05:16 2019 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 16:05:16 -0400 Subject: Care and feeding of true barn-find systems In-Reply-To: <7ae00d30-1d2e-8a83-e90f-901b9e1b16eb@snowmoose.com> References: <7ae00d30-1d2e-8a83-e90f-901b9e1b16eb@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: complete disassembly, don't be afraid to use soap and water (dry well) before you start with the chemical cleaning agents. Replace the battery, check for battery leakage.(but I doubt you'll find any). The rubber parts and drive belt if present may need to replaced. Bill On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 3:46 PM Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > > Yesterday I rescued a Sun 3/260 that had been sitting in an open barn > for years. It had been "running when parked" a dozen years ago. It > seems to have been covered by a tarp, but otherwise unprotected. All > things considered, it doesn't look that bad but it is pretty rough. > > Any pointers on things that I should and shouldn't do as I start trying > to bring it back to life? > > alan > > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Apr 19 15:07:50 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 13:07:50 -0700 Subject: Care and feeding of true barn-find systems In-Reply-To: <7ae00d30-1d2e-8a83-e90f-901b9e1b16eb@snowmoose.com> References: <7ae00d30-1d2e-8a83-e90f-901b9e1b16eb@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On 4/19/19 12:46 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > Any pointers on things that I should and shouldn't do as I start trying to bring it back to life? Pull the Fuji power supply and thoroughly bench-test it. There is a high probability it will have failed. From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Apr 19 15:23:10 2019 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 13:23:10 -0700 Subject: MSCP Conformance tests? Message-ID: I'm working on implementing an MSCP controller on top of Joerg Hoppe's Unibone and I'm making pretty good progress -- RT-11 works and I'm working on getting 2.11bsd to boot from it in an 11/84 (it works well enough to load "boot" which then loads the kernel, then things fall over). However, given the complexity of the protocol I'd like to be able to test it against something official rather than going from OS to OS and hammering out issues as I find them. DEC's UDA50 diagnostics assume an actual UDA50 (and expect specific behaviors like onboard diagnostics, etc.) and I don't really want to emulate a UDA50 -- I just want to implement a generic MSCP controller properly. I'm assuming the answer is "no" but did DEC ever provide actual MSCP conformance tests (for PDP-11 or VAX) to allow third parties to test their implementations? Thanks as always, Josh From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 19 15:44:23 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 13:44:23 -0700 Subject: Care and feeding of true barn-find systems In-Reply-To: <7ae00d30-1d2e-8a83-e90f-901b9e1b16eb@snowmoose.com> References: <7ae00d30-1d2e-8a83-e90f-901b9e1b16eb@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On 4/19/19 12:46 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > > Yesterday I rescued a Sun 3/260 that had been sitting in an open barn > for years. It had been "running when parked" a dozen years ago.? It > seems to have been covered by a tarp, but otherwise unprotected. All > things considered, it doesn't look that bad but it is pretty rough. > > Any pointers on things that I should and shouldn't do as I start trying > to bring it back to life? Disassemble it outside preferable while wearing globes and let the vermin escape. No kidding.quite a few years ago, I was chatting with a poor fellow who was rehabilitating a bit of kit that was stored in his garage loft. When he opened it, he discovered a nest of brown recluse spiders, one of which bit him. Sidelined him for awhile. --Chuck From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Apr 19 15:48:31 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2019 14:48:31 -0600 Subject: Care and feeding of true barn-find systems In-Reply-To: References: <7ae00d30-1d2e-8a83-e90f-901b9e1b16eb@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <6ef21530-6fb3-9d24-3363-2a054b11d30c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 4/19/19 2:44 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > When he opened it, he discovered a nest of brown recluse spiders, one > of which bit him. Sidelined him for awhile. I prefer starting projects like that very early in the year. When most critters will not have survived hard / prolonged freezes during the winter. Or at least open them up and get obvious unpleasant things like that out of the way. Then wait until the weather warms up. }:-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Apr 20 02:03:05 2019 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2019 01:03:05 -0600 Subject: Plane of core memory In-Reply-To: <20190419114643.E00C018C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190419114643.E00C018C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 5:46 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > where the description of the invention of 3-wire core can be found on pg. > 231; it was invented by a group of engineers, based on a similar idea used > in > Stretch. There is indeed a patent, No. 3,381,282, with six names on it. IBM > must have licensed it, but there is nothing on that. > Under section XI of the 1956 consent decree, IBM was ordered to provide non-exclusive licenses for any of its existing or future patents to anyone, though "a reasonable royalty may be charged". They probably licensed the '282 patent to many parties. More famously, the consent decree required that IBM make machines available for purchase (rather than only for lease), and make service and parts available for machines they had sold. As the result of a 1996 settlment with the Justice Department, the 1956 decree terminated with respect to various product lines from 1996 to 2001. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Apr 20 15:32:49 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2019 13:32:49 -0700 Subject: Telex 274-61C Establishment Controller Message-ID: Picked one up, it is the last generation of 3274-style controllers before they went to 3174-style ca. 1988. I'd like to find manuals and the IPL diskette (1.2mb). The unit actually had an IPL floppy, but it disintegrated trying to recover it (there is signs of rust inside the hardware so the whole thing got wet). I took some pics of the boards (each one has a 68000 on it, only one board has eproms) and dumped the firmware which is up now under telex on bitsavers. Curiously, the floppy appears to be in FILES-11 format.. From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Sat Apr 20 17:47:54 2019 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2019 18:47:54 -0400 Subject: IBM 6360 - interface help? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi again, Is there anyone within ~100 miles of the NYC area with a working IBM Displaywriter? I haven't found any more info on the signaling that goes over the DB37 data cable, and I would like to use my portable logic analyzer to sniff out some basics: - Boot - File Read - File Write Any leads would be appreciated! -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 6:03 PM Anders Nelson wrote: > Hey Al, > > I haven't looked at the MAME stuff but if it uses an NEC 765 then it > probably won't be the same. The signal list is quite a bit different, e.g. > only 5 non-contiguous address bits are used. Real weird. > > I'll take a look all the same. > > =] > > On Sun, Mar 31, 2019, 4:30 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > >> >> >> On 3/31/19 12:42 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: >> >> > I've read through the service manuals and other docs on Bitsavers but I >> > can't seem to find a deeper explanation on the protocol that runs over >> the >> > DB-37 cable. >> >> Have you looked at the displaywriter MAME driver? >> >> The floppy uses an NEC 765 disk controller >> >> >> >> From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Apr 20 19:33:32 2019 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2019 20:33:32 -0400 Subject: Rgb intensity line Message-ID: I am fashioning an RGB cable from parts. The computer (LNW80) does not send an "intensity" signal, it is only a 6pin rgb. The magnavox rgb 80 display that I wish to use to receive has a pin for an intensity signal. Other than "intensity" the rgb signals can be matched up. Question...what happens when a computer does not send an intensity signal to a display that has this input? I will find out soon enough but I am curious to ask before I begin should anyone have a suggestion. Do I need to add a resistor off of ground or something to fix it to something? Bill From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Apr 20 20:20:36 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2019 01:20:36 +0000 Subject: Rgb intensity line In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm not sure what needs to be done but almost sure a resistor to ground is not likely to be the answer. Give it a try without it first. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Bill Degnan via cctalk Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2019 5:33 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Rgb intensity line I am fashioning an RGB cable from parts. The computer (LNW80) does not send an "intensity" signal, it is only a 6pin rgb. The magnavox rgb 80 display that I wish to use to receive has a pin for an intensity signal. Other than "intensity" the rgb signals can be matched up. Question...what happens when a computer does not send an intensity signal to a display that has this input? I will find out soon enough but I am curious to ask before I begin should anyone have a suggestion. Do I need to add a resistor off of ground or something to fix it to something? Bill From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Sat Apr 20 21:16:53 2019 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2019 12:16:53 +1000 Subject: DEC PDP-11/70 cabinet setup Message-ID: I'm hoping to (partially) recreate an 11/70 setup, at least as close as I can get with what I have on hand (see the first pic in this gallery that shows the 11/70 advert): https://imgur.com/a/pvgUVmg I don't have the right masthead but I'm wondering if on a real 11/70 there is a 5mm gap between the masthead and the rack blanking panel below it? I can't see with these pieces a way to close the gap, but I'm curious as to whether the real thing also has the gap? thanks. From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Sat Apr 20 22:22:02 2019 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2019 23:22:02 -0400 Subject: micropdp11 and virtual memory Message-ID: <3ce10316-91cc-db19-4a6d-4bcbb8b2c29a@comcast.net> I've been compiling and running some Fortran programs on my microPDP11/53 computer and have questions about Fortran VIRTUAL arrays. Details: KDJ11-D/S cpu with 0.5 MB of ram, additional 1MB of Qbus ram.? I'm running RT11 V5.7 ZM and using the F77XM compiler, version 5 (I think). What I am seeing is that when I use VIRTUAL arrays instead of the usual memory below 64K the run times are dramatically slower.? Is this normal? Could it be something else?? The other memory board? From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Apr 21 00:31:22 2019 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2019 06:31:22 +0100 Subject: Rgb intensity line In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 1:33 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > I am fashioning an RGB cable from parts. The computer (LNW80) does not > send an "intensity" signal, it is only a 6pin rgb. The magnavox rgb 80 > display that I wish to use to receive has a pin for an intensity signal. > Other than "intensity" the rgb signals can be matched up. > > Question...what happens when a computer does not send an intensity signal > to a display that has this input? I will find out soon enough but I am > curious to ask before I begin should anyone have a suggestion. Do I need > to add a resistor off of ground or something to fix it to something? Assuming it's a TTL level RGB interface (which given the intensity line it almost certainly is), I think there are several things you could do with that intensity line. All will give a display but it will be different, so pick the one you like... 1) Tie it low (so you always get the unintensified colours) 2) Tie it to +5V (preferably through a 1k resistor) (so you alway get the intensified colours). 3) Connect it to one of the 'colour' signals. If you connect it to the G signal for example, then any colour with green in it will be intensified. 4) Connect it to a logical combinaton of the colour signals. If you connect it to the logical AND of R,G,B then white will be intensified all others not. If you connect it to the logical OR of R,G,B then black will be the only unintensified colour. This involves extra logic circuitry and is probably not worth doing, but I include it for completeness. -tony > > Bill From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Apr 21 09:11:34 2019 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2019 09:11:34 -0500 Subject: Programming on metal cylinders? In-Reply-To: <3ce10316-91cc-db19-4a6d-4bcbb8b2c29a@comcast.net> References: <3ce10316-91cc-db19-4a6d-4bcbb8b2c29a@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20190421141703.85B6927502@mx1.ezwind.net> I was assisting an older client the other day, a former Yale prof, and he's been programming since the late 1950s. He knew people who worked at Bletchley Park. He also mentioned he knew people who had manually scribed their programs on some sort of metal cylinder. Which computer system was that? Part of what he'd like me to help with is a circa 2001 Compaq / DIGITAL version of a FORTRAN programming environment. He had not yet found the installation media so we could try to get it running on Windows 10. I wonder if it will... - John From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Apr 21 11:08:05 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2019 09:08:05 -0700 Subject: IBM 6360 - interface help? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8cccdc53-9a24-e86c-c124-b3b283c0e0b6@bitsavers.org> On 4/20/19 3:47 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > I haven't found any more info on the signaling that goes > over the DB37 data cable, and I would like to use my portable logic > analyzer to sniff out some basics: I could help you, I have several DWs and I want to document the hardware, but thanks to kb vultures I've not been able to find a complete keyboard. I have the PCB and cable but none of the mechanical parts. I guess I could try hooking that up to try to get past POST. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Apr 21 11:11:53 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2019 09:11:53 -0700 Subject: Telex 274-61C Establishment Controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5f6bc126-b7f9-b18c-ae37-bb3fa71b1c8c@bitsavers.org> On 4/20/19 1:32 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Picked one up, it is the last generation of 3274-style controllers before they went to 3174-style ca. 1988. > I'd like to find manuals and the IPL diskette (1.2mb). > The unit actually had an IPL floppy, but it disintegrated trying to recover it (there is signs of > rust inside the hardware so the whole thing got wet). > I took some pics of the boards (each one has a 68000 on it, only one board has eproms) > and dumped the firmware which is up now under telex on bitsavers. > > Curiously, the floppy appears to be in FILES-11 format.. > The floppy isn't completely dead even though trk0 on both sides is gone. Made a clone of the floppy with a SuperCard Pro board and it IMLs far enough that I can get into some diagnostics. Don't know what to do without docs. I suspect the configuration goes through the RS-232 port, since all of the configuration string are in ASCII. Today's project is to go through the later-gen 1174 controller docs to see if there is some hint of how to configure the thing and try that on the earlier model. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Apr 21 14:56:11 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2019 15:56:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC PDP-11/70 cabinet setup Message-ID: <20190421195611.1448118C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Nigel Williams > I'm wondering if on a real 11/70 there is a 5mm gap between the > masthead and the rack blanking panel below it? If by "masthead" you mean the thing DEC calls a "Logo Panel" (see 11/70 Engineering Drawings, 'Unit Assembly', pg 1 of 5), it's the same as all the other PDP-11 etc logo panels, the -11/70 just has an inlay (thin metal sheet) which is painted differently. And yes, there's a 5mm gap between the top of the top 10-1/2" blank panel, and the bottom edge of the logo panel. Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Apr 21 16:29:40 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2019 14:29:40 -0700 Subject: Telex 274-61C Establishment Controller In-Reply-To: <5f6bc126-b7f9-b18c-ae37-bb3fa71b1c8c@bitsavers.org> References: <5f6bc126-b7f9-b18c-ae37-bb3fa71b1c8c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <79217e63-9ad8-50c4-bb53-09c82fc9a5a7@bitsavers.org> On 4/21/19 9:11 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Today's project is to go through the later-gen 1174 controller docs to see if there is some hint of how to > configure the thing and try that on the earlier model. > Configuration is completely different I noticed it isn't even getting as far as starting the 2nd CPU since I noticed the 'LDERR' light come on at the point where IML faults From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Apr 21 16:43:01 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2019 21:43:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Telex 20 Meg 10 platter very heavy monster drive needed drop line off list..r References: <1455313567.2521359.1555882981309.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1455313567.2521359.1555882981309@mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Telex 20 Meg 10 platter ?very heavy monster drive needed drop line off list.. Telex 20 Meg 10 platter ?very heavy monster drive needed drop line off list thanks Ed# ---hope this works and see ds from phone ok... thx------- From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Apr 21 17:58:08 2019 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2019 18:58:08 -0400 Subject: Telex 20 Meg 10 platter very heavy monster drive needed drop line off list..r In-Reply-To: <1455313567.2521359.1555882981309@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1455313567.2521359.1555882981309.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1455313567.2521359.1555882981309@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 2019-04-21 5:43 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > Subject: Telex 20 Meg 10 platter ?very heavy monster drive needed drop line off list.. > > Telex 20 Meg 10 platter ?very heavy monster drive needed drop line off list thanks Ed# ---hope this works and see ds from phone ok... thx------- > I crashed Google Translate. From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Sun Apr 21 19:02:19 2019 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 10:02:19 +1000 Subject: DEC PDP-11/70 cabinet setup In-Reply-To: <20190421195611.1448118C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190421195611.1448118C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 5:56 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > If by "masthead" you mean the thing DEC calls a "Logo Panel" (see 11/70 > Engineering Drawings, 'Unit Assembly', pg 1 of 5), it's the same as all the > other PDP-11 etc logo panels,... when you say "same", as in the same text as well? I can't make it out on the advert picture. > And yes, there's a 5mm gap between the top of the top 10-1/2" blank panel, and > the bottom edge of the logo panel. thanks for the confirmation. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Apr 21 20:13:34 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2019 21:13:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC PDP-11/70 cabinet setup Message-ID: <20190422011334.2670E18C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Nigel Williams >> it's the same as all the other PDP-11 etc logo panels,... > when you say "same", as in the same text as well? Sorry, I should have been more explicit. 'Same physical shape' is what I meant; just different stuff painted on the insert. > thanks for the confirmation. Sure, glad to help. Noel From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Sun Apr 21 21:15:46 2019 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2019 22:15:46 -0400 Subject: IBM 6360 - interface help? In-Reply-To: <8cccdc53-9a24-e86c-c124-b3b283c0e0b6@bitsavers.org> References: <8cccdc53-9a24-e86c-c124-b3b283c0e0b6@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Cool, do you happen to have schematics for the keyboard or a description of the signaling? I could help make a hardware convertor that takes in a USB keyboard and spit out DW keystrokes... A POST logic trace would be helpful I'm sure - where are you located? We can take this off-list if you prefer. =] -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 12:24 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 4/20/19 3:47 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > > I haven't found any more info on the signaling that goes > > over the DB37 data cable, and I would like to use my portable logic > > analyzer to sniff out some basics: > > I could help you, I have several DWs and I want to document the hardware, > but thanks to kb vultures I've not been able to find a complete keyboard. > I have the PCB and cable but none of the mechanical parts. > > I guess I could try hooking that up to try to get past POST. > > From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Sun Apr 21 21:24:37 2019 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2019 22:24:37 -0400 Subject: IBM 6360 - interface help? In-Reply-To: References: <8cccdc53-9a24-e86c-c124-b3b283c0e0b6@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Looks like this guy has the Displaywriter keyboard protocol on his to-do list: http://www.kbdbabel.org/ -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 10:15 PM Anders Nelson wrote: > Cool, do you happen to have schematics for the keyboard or a description > of the signaling? I could help make a hardware convertor that takes in a > USB keyboard and spit out DW keystrokes... > > A POST logic trace would be helpful I'm sure - where are you located? We > can take this off-list if you prefer. > > =] > -- > Anders Nelson > > +1 (517) 775-6129 > > www.erogear.com > > > On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 12:24 PM Al Kossow via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On 4/20/19 3:47 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: >> > I haven't found any more info on the signaling that goes >> > over the DB37 data cable, and I would like to use my portable logic >> > analyzer to sniff out some basics: >> >> I could help you, I have several DWs and I want to document the hardware, >> but thanks to kb vultures I've not been able to find a complete keyboard. >> I have the PCB and cable but none of the mechanical parts. >> >> I guess I could try hooking that up to try to get past POST. >> >> From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 22 10:55:56 2019 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 15:55:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Still looking for a RK611 References: <1915645745.3918501.1555948556165.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1915645745.3918501.1555948556165@mail.yahoo.com> Hello, ?I have just about all the pieces I need to start work on getting at least one of my RK07's running. I found cables, terminators and cab kit but still need to find an RK611. I have just a few things I could trade. A very nice PDP11 labeled header panel for a DEC rack.No broken ears and not all scratched up. Brand new DECstation 5000/260 processor. Some non-DEC early PC boards. I would also pay a reasonable price for one. Thanks,Brian. From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 22 11:35:01 2019 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 16:35:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: CDC BK6XX BK7XX maintenance manual Vol2 References: <264645291.3951962.1555950902003.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <264645291.3951962.1555950902003@mail.yahoo.com> I have a CDC BK6XX BK7XX Maintenance manual Vol 2 available.If anyone has an immediate need I will send it free but please passit on to Bitsavers after scanning as I did not see this one listed. Brian. From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Apr 22 11:49:31 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 16:49:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Telex 20 Meg 10 platter very heavy monster drive needed drop line off list..r References: <1873867477.2816391.1555951771452.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1873867477.2816391.1555951771452@mail.yahoo.com> Telex 20 Meg 10 platter ?very heavy monster drive needed drop line off list thanks Ed# ---hope this works and see ds from phone ok... thx try it? again!In a message dated 4/21/2019 3:58:15 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: Telex 20 Meg 10 platter ?very heavy monster drive needed drop line off list thanks Ed# ---hope this works and see ds from phone ok... thx From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 22 12:00:58 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 10:00:58 -0700 Subject: Telex 20 Meg 10 platter very heavy monster drive needed drop line off list..r In-Reply-To: <1873867477.2816391.1555951771452@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1873867477.2816391.1555951771452.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1873867477.2816391.1555951771452@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 4/22/19 9:49 AM, ED (knuttjobb) SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > Telex 20 Meg 10 platter ?very heavy monster drive needed drop line off list thanks Presumably he is looking for a Telex 2311-compatible drive, but who knows wtf Ed says. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 22 12:02:32 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 10:02:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Telex 20 Meg 10 platter very heavy monster drive needed drop line off list..r In-Reply-To: <1873867477.2816391.1555951771452@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1873867477.2816391.1555951771452.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1873867477.2816391.1555951771452@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Now try it again, expressed in sentences, with explanation. What is special about it? Why do you want it? Does it need to be dropped off of the list? On Mon, 22 Apr 2019, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > Telex 20 Meg 10 platter ?very heavy monster drive needed drop line off list thanks Ed# ---hope this works and see ds from phone ok... thx > > > > try it? again!In a message dated 4/21/2019 3:58:15 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > Telex 20 Meg 10 platter ?very heavy monster drive needed drop line off list thanks Ed# ---hope this works and see ds from phone ok... thx From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 22 12:09:35 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 10:09:35 -0700 Subject: Programming on metal cylinders? In-Reply-To: <20190421141703.85B6927502@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <3ce10316-91cc-db19-4a6d-4bcbb8b2c29a@comcast.net> <20190421141703.85B6927502@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <7300016e-dcfb-a8c6-337d-6731b77badc4@sydex.com> On 4/21/19 7:11 AM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > I was assisting an older client the other day, a former Yale prof, > and he's been programming since the late 1950s. > > He knew people who worked at Bletchley Park. He also mentioned he > knew people who had manually scribed their programs on some sort of metal > cylinder. Which computer system was that? > > Part of what he'd like me to help with is a circa 2001 Compaq / DIGITAL > version of a FORTRAN programming environment. He had not yet found > the installation media so we could try to get it running on Windows 10. > I wonder if it will... Could this be something that uses the same technology as a drum program card on a keypunch? --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Apr 22 12:09:44 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 13:09:44 -0400 Subject: CDC BK6XX BK7XX maintenance manual Vol2 In-Reply-To: <264645291.3951962.1555950902003@mail.yahoo.com> References: <264645291.3951962.1555950902003.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <264645291.3951962.1555950902003@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: What are a BK6xx or BK7xx? paul > On Apr 22, 2019, at 12:35 PM, Brian Roth via cctalk wrote: > > I have a CDC BK6XX BK7XX Maintenance manual Vol 2 available.If anyone has an immediate need I will send it free but please passit on to Bitsavers after scanning as I did not see this one listed. > Brian. From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Apr 22 12:19:12 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 17:19:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Telex 20 Meg 10 platter very heavy monster drive needed drop line off list..r References: <1012059830.2842308.1555953552266.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1012059830.2842308.1555953552266@mail.yahoo.com> 2311? was? not? ?20? megs..... from? what? I? saw... what is the? ?#? ?for the? 20 meg? telex? drive?thanks? ed# In a message dated 4/22/2019 10:01:04 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: On 4/22/19 9:49 AM, ED (knuttjobb) SHARPE via cctalk wrote: >? Telex 20 Meg 10 platter ?very heavy monster drive needed drop line off list thanks Presumably he is looking for a Telex 2311-compatible drive, but who knows wtf Ed says. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 22 12:19:53 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 10:19:53 -0700 Subject: CDC BK6XX BK7XX maintenance manual Vol2 In-Reply-To: References: <264645291.3951962.1555950902003.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <264645291.3951962.1555950902003@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5f6c6fdf-a897-4d3e-f1e4-583bddba4801@bitsavers.org> On 4/22/19 10:09 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > What are a BK6xx or BK7xx? 150 and 300mb SMD top-loading disks I probably have the manual, just have to search by manual part number in the backlog From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 22 12:20:20 2019 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 17:20:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: CDC BK6XX BK7XX maintenance manual Vol2 In-Reply-To: References: <264645291.3951962.1555950902003.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <264645291.3951962.1555950902003@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <192883223.3981957.1555953620099@mail.yahoo.com> ?They are CDC SMD drives On Monday, April 22, 2019, 12:09:54 PM CDT, Paul Koning wrote: What are a BK6xx or BK7xx? ??? paul > On Apr 22, 2019, at 12:35 PM, Brian Roth via cctalk wrote: > > I have a CDC BK6XX BK7XX Maintenance manual Vol 2 available.If anyone has an immediate need I will send it free but please passit on to Bitsavers after scanning as I did not see this one listed. > Brian. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 22 12:48:43 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 10:48:43 -0700 Subject: CDC BK6XX BK7XX maintenance manual Vol2 In-Reply-To: <5f6c6fdf-a897-4d3e-f1e4-583bddba4801@bitsavers.org> References: <264645291.3951962.1555950902003.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <264645291.3951962.1555950902003@mail.yahoo.com> <5f6c6fdf-a897-4d3e-f1e4-583bddba4801@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 4/22/19 10:19 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I probably have the manual, just have to search by manual part number in the backlog > > weird, looks like I don't have lots of versions of the smaller one (9762) From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Apr 22 13:05:26 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 18:05:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Telex 20 Meg 10 platter very heavy monster drive needed drop line off list..r In-Reply-To: References: <1873867477.2816391.1555951771452.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1873867477.2816391.1555951771452@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1201990640.2869494.1555956326440@mail.yahoo.com> Al,? the? drive? ?you mention at? its? largest? ?was? 7.5 meg? and? 6? platters... not? ? the? ?one? ... an? interesting? ?drive? but? not? the? dive? ?we? need? alas...? Ed# In a message dated 4/22/2019 10:01:04 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: On 4/22/19 9:49 AM, ED (knuttjobb) SHARPE via cctalk wrote: >? Telex 20 Meg 10 platter ?very heavy monster drive needed drop line off list thanks Presumably he is looking for a Telex 2311-compatible drive, but who knows wtf Ed says.\ aek at bitsavers.org;cctalk From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 22 13:21:43 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 11:21:43 -0700 Subject: Telex 20 Meg 10 platter very heavy monster drive needed drop line off list..r In-Reply-To: <1201990640.2869494.1555956326440@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1873867477.2816391.1555951771452.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1873867477.2816391.1555951771452@mail.yahoo.com> <1201990640.2869494.1555956326440@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6add55f1-8c67-61d0-f2f9-495876755aa7@bitsavers.org> On 4/22/19 11:05 AM, ED SHARPE wrote: > Al,? the? drive? ?you mention at? its? largest? ?was? 7.5 meg? and? 6? platters... not? ? the? ?one Telex bought their drives from ISS. You're looking for a ISS 714 (ca. 1970) 2314 compat. https://ia800608.us.archive.org/15/items/TNM_Information_Storage_Systems_-_714_Disk_Storag_20170630_0180/TNM_Information_Storage_Systems_-_714_Disk_Storag_20170630_0180.pdf From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 22 13:28:40 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 11:28:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Telex 20 Meg 10 platter very heavy monster drive needed drop line off list..r In-Reply-To: <1201990640.2869494.1555956326440@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1873867477.2816391.1555951771452.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1873867477.2816391.1555951771452@mail.yahoo.com> <1201990640.2869494.1555956326440@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: So, if the last two digits are unformatted capacity (ala Seagate), then maybe the 2325? On Mon, 22 Apr 2019, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > Al,? the? drive? ?you mention at? its? largest? ?was? 7.5 meg? and? 6? platters... not? ? the? ?one? ... an? interesting? ?drive? but? not? the? dive? ?we? need? alas...? Ed# > > > In a message dated 4/22/2019 10:01:04 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > > On 4/22/19 9:49 AM, ED (knuttjobb) SHARPE via cctalk wrote: >> ? Telex 20 Meg 10 platter ?very heavy monster drive needed drop line off list thanks > Presumably he is looking for a Telex 2311-compatible drive, but who knows wtf Ed says.\ > > > aek at bitsavers.org;cctalk From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Apr 22 13:34:48 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 18:34:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Telex 20 Meg 10 platter very heavy monster drive needed drop line off list..r References: <258063432.2887845.1555958088542.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <258063432.2887845.1555958088542@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks? Al? ?yes, that? is? the? one.? and? as? I? recall? ?ISS? was a? ?offshoot? on? ?univac?In a message dated 4/22/2019 11:21:50 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: On 4/22/19 11:05 AM, ED SHARPE wrote: > Al,? the? drive? ?you mention at? its? largest? ?was? 7.5 meg? and? 6? platters... not? ? the? ?one Telex bought their drives from ISS. You're looking for a ISS 714 (ca. 1970) 2314 compat. https://ia800608.us.archive.org/15/items/TNM_Information_Storage_Systems_-_714_Disk_Storag_20170630_0180/TNM_Information_Storage_Systems_-_714_Disk_Storag_20170630_0180.pdf aek at bitsavers.org;cctalk From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Apr 22 13:37:01 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 18:37:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Telex 20 Meg 10 platter very heavy monster drive needed drop line off list..r References: <1387518097.2905825.1555958221403.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1387518097.2905825.1555958221403@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks? Al? ?yes, that? is? the? one. and? as? I? recall? ?ISS? was a? ?offshoot? on? ?univac Do? ?you? have? any? Thanks Ed# In a message dated 4/22/2019 11:34:58 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: Thanks? Al? ?yes, that? is? the? one. and? as? I? recall? ?ISS? was a? ?offshoot? on? ?univac?In a message dated 4/22/2019 11:21:50 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: On 4/22/19 11:05 AM, ED SHARPE wrote:> Al,? the? drive? ?you mention at? its? largest? ?was? 7.5 meg? and? 6? platters... not? ? the? ?one Telex bought their drives from ISS.You're looking for a ISS 714 (ca. 1970) 2314 compat.https://ia800608.us.archive.org/15/items/TNM_Information_Storage_Systems_-_714_Disk_Storag_20170630_0180/TNM_Information_Storage_Systems_-_714_Disk_Storag_20170630_0180.pdf aek at bitsavers.org;cctalk From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Apr 22 14:05:46 2019 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 12:05:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Telex 20 Meg 10 platter very heavy monster drive needed drop line off list..r In-Reply-To: <1201990640.2869494.1555956326440@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1873867477.2816391.1555951771452.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1873867477.2816391.1555951771452@mail.yahoo.com> <1201990640.2869494.1555956326440@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Apr 2019, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > Al,? the? drive? ?you mention at? its? largest? ?was? 7.5 meg? and? 6? > platters... not? ? the? ?one? ... an? interesting? ?drive? but? not? > the? dive? ?we? need? alas...? Ed# > With all the extra whitespace, all my brain hears when I read that is William Shatner. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Mon Apr 22 14:15:53 2019 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:15:53 +0100 Subject: Telex 20 Meg 10 platter very heavy monster drive needed drop line off list..r In-Reply-To: References: <1873867477.2816391.1555951771452.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1873867477.2816391.1555951771452@mail.yahoo.com> <1201990640.2869494.1555956326440@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > On 22 Apr 2019, at 20:05, geneb via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, 22 Apr 2019, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > >> Al, the drive you mention at its largest was 7.5 meg and 6 platters... not the one ... an interesting drive but not the dive we need alas... Ed# >> > With all the extra whitespace, all my brain hears when I read that is William Shatner. You owe me a beer for that comment :D -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 22 14:26:43 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 12:26:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Telex 20 Meg 10 platter very heavy monster drive needed drop line off list..r In-Reply-To: References: <1873867477.2816391.1555951771452.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1873867477.2816391.1555951771452@mail.yahoo.com> <1201990640.2869494.1555956326440@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >> Al,? the? drive? ?you mention at? its? largest? ?was? 7.5 meg? >> and? 6? platters... not? ? the? ?one? ... an? interesting? >> ?drive? but? not? the? dive? ?we? need? alas...? Ed# On Mon, 22 Apr 2019, geneb via cctalk wrote: > With all the extra whitespace, all my brain hears when I read that is William > Shatner. Is Ed in possession of Roddenberry's keyboard? Or is Roddenberry's keyboard possessing Ed? From pat at vax11.net Mon Apr 22 15:07:25 2019 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 16:07:25 -0400 Subject: TeleVideo MmmOST replacement Message-ID: I've finally have cleaned up sources and wrote up some documentation for my TeleVideo MmmOST replacement. Let me know if you have interest in this, need help, or could help me source a working TS-806 to compare this against. https://worldofvax.blogspot.com/2019/04/televideo-systems-part-vii-almmmost.html Pat From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Mon Apr 22 16:47:03 2019 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 17:47:03 -0400 Subject: Programming on metal cylinders? In-Reply-To: <7300016e-dcfb-a8c6-337d-6731b77badc4@sydex.com> References: <3ce10316-91cc-db19-4a6d-4bcbb8b2c29a@comcast.net> <20190421141703.85B6927502@mx1.ezwind.net> <7300016e-dcfb-a8c6-337d-6731b77badc4@sydex.com> Message-ID: This one?: https://youtu.be/YyxGIbtMS9E Probably not. -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 1:09 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 4/21/19 7:11 AM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > > > I was assisting an older client the other day, a former Yale prof, > > and he's been programming since the late 1950s. > > > > He knew people who worked at Bletchley Park. He also mentioned he > > knew people who had manually scribed their programs on some sort of metal > > cylinder. Which computer system was that? > > > > Part of what he'd like me to help with is a circa 2001 Compaq / DIGITAL > > version of a FORTRAN programming environment. He had not yet found > > the installation media so we could try to get it running on Windows 10. > > I wonder if it will... > > Could this be something that uses the same technology as a drum program > card on a keypunch? > > --Chuck > > From kevin.bowling at kev009.com Mon Apr 22 22:15:00 2019 From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:15:00 -0700 Subject: Telex 274-61C Establishment Controller In-Reply-To: <79217e63-9ad8-50c4-bb53-09c82fc9a5a7@bitsavers.org> References: <5f6bc126-b7f9-b18c-ae37-bb3fa71b1c8c@bitsavers.org> <79217e63-9ad8-50c4-bb53-09c82fc9a5a7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I have a late model 1174 it looks like they kept the same basic architecture, each board has a full 68k. On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 2:29 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 4/21/19 9:11 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > Today's project is to go through the later-gen 1174 controller docs to > see if there is some hint of how to > > configure the thing and try that on the earlier model. > > > > Configuration is completely different > I noticed it isn't even getting as far as starting the 2nd CPU > since I noticed the 'LDERR' light come on at the point where IML faults > > > > From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 02:23:09 2019 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 00:23:09 -0700 Subject: Televideo 925 character rom dump Message-ID: Hi all -- I'm working on a Televideo 925 terminal with a few problems, one of which is a bad character generator ROM, (a MOS 2332). Does anyone have a dump of this already, or have a working 925 they'd be able to dump the ROM from? Thanks in advance, Josh From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 03:07:47 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 09:07:47 +0100 Subject: Programming on metal cylinders? In-Reply-To: <7300016e-dcfb-a8c6-337d-6731b77badc4@sydex.com> References: <3ce10316-91cc-db19-4a6d-4bcbb8b2c29a@comcast.net> <20190421141703.85B6927502@mx1.ezwind.net> <7300016e-dcfb-a8c6-337d-6731b77badc4@sydex.com> Message-ID: <0dd301d4f9ab$a41b3f80$ec51be80$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis via > cctalk > Sent: 22 April 2019 18:10 > To: John Foust via cctalk > Subject: Re: Programming on metal cylinders? > > On 4/21/19 7:11 AM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > > > I was assisting an older client the other day, a former Yale prof, and > > he's been programming since the late 1950s. > > > > He knew people who worked at Bletchley Park. He also mentioned he > > knew people who had manually scribed their programs on some sort of > > metal cylinder. Which computer system was that? Music Box? Could he be confusing something with BOMBE set up? > > > > Part of what he'd like me to help with is a circa 2001 Compaq / > > DIGITAL version of a FORTRAN programming environment. He had not yet > > found the installation media so we could try to get it running on Windows >> 10. > > I wonder if it will... Do you mean DIGITAL/Compaq FORTRAN for Windows? Or something older such as VAX Fortran which had many extensions. > > Could this be something that uses the same technology as a drum program > card on a keypunch? > > --Chuck From dennis.grevenstein at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 06:25:01 2019 From: dennis.grevenstein at gmail.com (Dennis Grevenstein) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 13:25:01 +0200 Subject: Ultrix 3.0 VAX Message-ID: <65FFBAA2-A3D7-4BB8-85D8-B435D1D45F7D@gmail.com> Hi, I am looking for images of Ultrix 3.0 installation tapes for VAX. I know that there are some on bitsavers: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/bits/DEC/vax/ultrix/3.0/ However, I cannot boot them in simh. There are also 4.0 images that boot fine. I then installed 4.0 and looked at the 3.0 tape images. I could extract the base 3.0 filesets, but the standalone parts that allow booting a system appear to be missing. Thus, I could not even setup a remote installation environment. Can anybody help me out with bootable Ultrix 3 tape images? thanks, Dennis From pat at vax11.net Tue Apr 23 06:43:46 2019 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 07:43:46 -0400 Subject: Televideo 925 character rom dump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I should be able to do that for you if you don't find someone else with a dumped room sooner. Patrick Finnegan On Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 03:23 Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > Hi all -- > > I'm working on a Televideo 925 terminal with a few problems, one of which > is a bad character generator ROM, (a MOS 2332). Does anyone have a dump of > this already, or have a working 925 they'd be able to dump the ROM from? > > Thanks in advance, > Josh > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 08:07:03 2019 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 09:07:03 -0400 Subject: Televideo 925 character rom dump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: what is the ROM written on? b On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 7:44 AM Patrick Finnegan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I should be able to do that for you if you don't find someone else with a > dumped room sooner. > > Patrick Finnegan > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 03:23 Josh Dersch via cctalk > wrote: > > > Hi all -- > > > > I'm working on a Televideo 925 terminal with a few problems, one of which > > is a bad character generator ROM, (a MOS 2332). Does anyone have a dump > of > > this already, or have a working 925 they'd be able to dump the ROM from? > > > > Thanks in advance, > > Josh > > > > > From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Apr 23 10:02:24 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 10:02:24 -0500 Subject: Televideo 925 character rom dump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5CBF2900.5050302@pico-systems.com> On 04/23/2019 02:23 AM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > Hi all -- > > I'm working on a Televideo 925 terminal with a few problems, one of which > is a bad character generator ROM, (a MOS 2332). Does anyone have a dump of > this already, or have a working 925 they'd be able to dump the ROM from? > > Is the ROM totally bad, or just losing a few bits here and there? If the latter, you could probably read it out, figure out how the rows, columns and characters are mapped, and fix it. Jon From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 23 10:24:29 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 08:24:29 -0700 Subject: Televideo 925 character rom dump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6a2a5ee5-ddf0-579c-03a6-ab177573e489@bitsavers.org> it is the same one used in the 910 1800000-016A_A17_85AE.bin On 4/23/19 12:23 AM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > Hi all -- > > I'm working on a Televideo 925 terminal with a few problems, one of which > is a bad character generator ROM, (a MOS 2332). Does anyone have a dump of > this already, or have a working 925 they'd be able to dump the ROM from? > > Thanks in advance, > Josh > From pat at vax11.net Tue Apr 23 10:25:02 2019 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 11:25:02 -0400 Subject: Televideo 925 character rom dump In-Reply-To: <5CBF2900.5050302@pico-systems.com> References: <5CBF2900.5050302@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 11:02 AM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > Is the ROM totally bad, or just losing a few bits here and > there? If the latter, you could probably read it out, figure > out how the rows, columns and characters are mapped, and fix it. > Considering that 925s are really common, and a replacement EPROM should be easy to source and program, this sounds like an overly difficult approach that will yield something different than what he wants. Pat From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 23 10:42:21 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 08:42:21 -0700 Subject: Televideo 925 character rom dump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/23/19 4:43 AM, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk wrote: > I should be able to do that for you if you don't find someone else with a > dumped room sooner. I was wondering what TS-8xx systems you have that supported RS-422, and if you've dumped the firmware from them. I can request the TS-806/20 in the collection and dump the firmware and disk if that would be of help https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102747355 From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 23 10:45:34 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 08:45:34 -0700 Subject: Telex 274-61C Establishment Controller In-Reply-To: References: <5f6bc126-b7f9-b18c-ae37-bb3fa71b1c8c@bitsavers.org> <79217e63-9ad8-50c4-bb53-09c82fc9a5a7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <176cd0a7-ba3c-e443-1339-7ea0f0befaf8@bitsavers.org> Could you take some pictures and image the 5" floppies? Is this one of the big floor standing units (1174-10C) ? Did you get any docs with it? On 4/22/19 8:15 PM, Kevin Bowling wrote: > I have a late model 1174 it looks like they kept the same basic architecture, each board has a full 68k. > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 23 11:16:13 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 09:16:13 -0700 Subject: Telex 274-61C Establishment Controller In-Reply-To: References: <5f6bc126-b7f9-b18c-ae37-bb3fa71b1c8c@bitsavers.org> <79217e63-9ad8-50c4-bb53-09c82fc9a5a7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 4/22/19 8:15 PM, Kevin Bowling wrote: > I have a late model 1174 it looks like they kept the same basic architecture, each board has a full 68k. The desktop models (-60 and -95) have a large integrated main boards with plug-ins for comms options. I have one of each, I have them pulled apart right now to take pictures. Some decent pics of the -60R are here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/191672782519 is this yours? http://www.aceware.com.au/acms/EventDetail.asp?lngEventId=54 From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 11:38:03 2019 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 09:38:03 -0700 Subject: Televideo 925 character rom dump In-Reply-To: References: <5CBF2900.5050302@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 8:25 AM Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 11:02 AM Jon Elson via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Is the ROM totally bad, or just losing a few bits here and >> there? If the latter, you could probably read it out, figure >> out how the rows, columns and characters are mapped, and fix it. >> > > Considering that 925s are really common, and a replacement EPROM should be > easy to source and program, this sounds like an overly difficult approach > that will yield something different than what he wants. > The thought had crossed my mind, but only as a last resort. I'm not entirely sure what the internal fault is, but the end result is two rows of every character have all bits stuck "on." I've verified that the ROM addressing is correct and that there's nothing on the output side causing this behavior. Patrick, thanks very much for offering to read the ROM! - Josh > Pat > From kevin.bowling at kev009.com Tue Apr 23 12:13:02 2019 From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 10:13:02 -0700 Subject: Telex 274-61C Establishment Controller In-Reply-To: References: <5f6bc126-b7f9-b18c-ae37-bb3fa71b1c8c@bitsavers.org> <79217e63-9ad8-50c4-bb53-09c82fc9a5a7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: It's labeled Visara, 1174-25S mfg date is 2003. It only has a 3.5" floppy, it boots off an internal HDD, so I'm not sure how to load code for DFTs yet. Regards, Kevin On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 9:16 AM Al Kossow wrote: > > > > On 4/22/19 8:15 PM, Kevin Bowling wrote: > > I have a late model 1174 it looks like they kept the same basic architecture, each board has a full 68k. > > The desktop models (-60 and -95) have a large integrated main boards with plug-ins for comms options. > I have one of each, I have them pulled apart right now to take pictures. > > Some decent pics of the -60R are here: > https://www.ebay.com/itm/191672782519 > > is this yours? > http://www.aceware.com.au/acms/EventDetail.asp?lngEventId=54 > From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 12:20:15 2019 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 13:20:15 -0400 Subject: IBM 6360 - interface help? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: CCing the list back in, and still looking for someone in the NY area with a Displaywriter (with disk drive) that could help me take some logic traces - ==== Quoth Nigel: just in case you missed it your reply only went to me. On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 1:45 PM Anders Nelson wrote: > Nigel - Wow, very cool! I assume you dumped a ROM feeding an 8048 inside the 6360 drive housing? Someone dumped the original ROM, it is in the github repo too. > FWIW, I also found a Displaywriter withOUT keyboard or disk drive: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-1984-IBM-6580-Display-Station-Word-Processor-and-Monitor/303132621814 If you want a 6580 keyboard you either have to get lucky or outbid the mech-heads...be prepared to bid a lot though. Estate sales are the thing to haunt to get one intact. ==== Thanks Nigel, more below! -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 11:45 PM Anders Nelson wrote: > Nigel - Wow, very cool! I assume you dumped a ROM feeding an 8048 inside > the 6360 drive housing? > > I agree a logic dump would be invaluable so if I can get in front of a DW > I'll capture and share all I find on my blog (and wherever else). > > Al - I found a USB conversion kit for this keyboard and it's all > open-source, so by reversing the key-matrix decode step in the kit's MCU > firmware we might be able to feed the original keyboard controller with > keystrokes from, say, another USB keyboard. A very roundabout hack but it > seems these keyboards are rare. Here are the conversion kit sources: > > Forum: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=58138.0 > Direct: http://downloads.cornall.co/ibm-capsense-usb/ > > Any chance someone knows the original keyboard controller pinout and > protocol? > > FWIW, I also found a Displaywriter withOUT keyboard or disk drive: > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-1984-IBM-6580-Display-Station-Word-Processor-and-Monitor/303132621814 > > =] > -- > Anders Nelson > > +1 (517) 775-6129 > > www.erogear.com > > > On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 11:12 PM Nigel Williams < > nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com> wrote: > >> Hi Anders, >> >> good luck with your exploration of the 6360. >> >> Back in Jan-2017, I assisted Sergey who did the MAME implementation of >> the Displaywriter, as Al Kossow mentioned in an earlier email the code >> is here: >> >> >> https://github.com/mamedev/mame/blob/97b67170277437131adf6ed4d60139c172529e4f/src/mame/machine/ibm6580_fdc.cpp >> >> During this process I started disassembling the 6360, attached is a >> file that I developed with comments. It is incomplete but might help >> understand the protocol. >> >> One thing to keep in mind is that the Displaywriter is made up of >> (almost) standalone subsystems, so the floppy drive unit has its own >> 8048 microprocessor and accepts high-level commands from the system >> unit. >> >> Sergey and I were chatting about returning to work on the MAME >> Displaywriter implementation at some point. We really need a >> logic-analyser dump of the startup since it is very convoluted (it has >> a large section of code attempting to check that all the hardware is >> working so it is doing all manner of tricks to check things). >> >> cheers, >> nigel. >> www.retroComputingTasmania.com >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 6:42 AM Anders Nelson via cctalk >> wrote: >> > Can anyone help with the protocol? >> > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 15:30:48 2019 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 13:30:48 -0700 Subject: Telex 20 Meg 10 platter very heavy monster drive needed drop line off list..r In-Reply-To: <258063432.2887845.1555958088542@mail.yahoo.com> References: <258063432.2887845.1555958088542.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <258063432.2887845.1555958088542@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Nice beastie. Marc > On Apr 22, 2019, at 11:34 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > Thanks Al yes, that is the one. > > and as I recall ISS was a offshoot on univac?In a message dated 4/22/2019 11:21:50 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > >> On 4/22/19 11:05 AM, ED SHARPE wrote: >> Al, the drive you mention at its largest was 7.5 meg and 6 platters... not the one > > Telex bought their drives from ISS. > You're looking for a ISS 714 (ca. 1970) 2314 compat. > https://ia800608.us.archive.org/15/items/TNM_Information_Storage_Systems_-_714_Disk_Storag_20170630_0180/TNM_Information_Storage_Systems_-_714_Disk_Storag_20170630_0180.pdf > > aek at bitsavers.org;cctalk > From t.gardner at computer.org Tue Apr 23 16:36:36 2019 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 14:36:36 -0700 Subject: Telex 20 Meg 10 platter very heavy monster drive needed drop line off list..r In-Reply-To: <1387518097.2905825.1555958221403@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1387518097.2905825.1555958221403.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1387518097.2905825.1555958221403@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00f101d4fa1c$a195e2d0$e4c1a870$@computer.org> ISS was an independent company in the era (late 60s) of the 714 (IBM 2314 compatible). It was later acquired by Itel (a leasing company) and then by Univac and sort of disappeared in the 80s. Depending upon your application almost any plug compatible 2314 might work or could be made to work. The interfaces were very much 2314 like except the PCMs and OEMs didn't use IBMs +/- 1.5v signaling levels on the interface but instead used DTL driver/receiver signaling. There was also some weirdness in the power sequencing all of which can be worked around if u are up to it. Tom -----Original Message----- From: ED SHARPE [mailto:couryhouse at aol.com] Sent: Monday, April 22, 2019 11:37 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org; aek at bitsavers.org Subject: Re: Telex 20 Meg 10 platter very heavy monster drive needed drop line off list..r Thanks Al yes, that is the one. and as I recall ISS was a offshoot on univac Do you have any? Thanks Ed# In a message dated 4/22/2019 11:34:58 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: Thanks Al yes, that is the one. and as I recall ISS was a offshoot on univac?In a message dated 4/22/2019 11:21:50 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: On 4/22/19 11:05 AM, ED SHARPE wrote:> Al, the drive you mention at its largest was 7.5 meg and 6 platters... not the one Telex bought their drives from ISS.You're looking for a ISS 714 (ca. 1970) 2314 compat.https://ia800608.us.archive.org/15/items/TNM_Information_Storage_Systems_-_714_Disk_Storag_20170630_0180/TNM_Information_Storage_Systems_-_714_Disk_Storag_20170630_0180.pdf aek at bitsavers.org;cctalk From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Apr 23 17:00:20 2019 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:00:20 -0500 Subject: Programming on metal cylinders? In-Reply-To: <0dd301d4f9ab$a41b3f80$ec51be80$@gmail.com> References: <3ce10316-91cc-db19-4a6d-4bcbb8b2c29a@comcast.net> <20190421141703.85B6927502@mx1.ezwind.net> <7300016e-dcfb-a8c6-337d-6731b77badc4@sydex.com> <0dd301d4f9ab$a41b3f80$ec51be80$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20190423220122.B7B0F2739E@mx1.ezwind.net> At 03:07 AM 4/23/2019, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: >Do you mean DIGITAL/Compaq FORTRAN for Windows? Or something older such as VAX Fortran which had many extensions. Yes, it was under Windows. What do you know about it? I find these tips: https://software.intel.com/en-us/forums/intel-visual-fortran-compiler-for-windows/topic/640393 - John From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 17:15:38 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 23:15:38 +0100 Subject: Programming on metal cylinders? In-Reply-To: <20190423220122.B7B0F2739E@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <3ce10316-91cc-db19-4a6d-4bcbb8b2c29a@comcast.net> <20190421141703.85B6927502@mx1.ezwind.net> <7300016e-dcfb-a8c6-337d-6731b77badc4@sydex.com> <0dd301d4f9ab$a41b3f80$ec51be80$@gmail.com> <20190423220122.B7B0F2739E@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <016101d4fa22$1679cc60$436d6520$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of John Foust via > cctalk > Sent: 23 April 2019 23:00 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Programming on metal cylinders? > > At 03:07 AM 4/23/2019, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > >Do you mean DIGITAL/Compaq FORTRAN for Windows? Or something older > such as VAX Fortran which had many extensions. > > Yes, it was under Windows. What do you know about it? > Not much. I was hoping it was the other environment > I find these tips: > > windows/topic/640393>https://software.intel.com/en-us/forums/intel- > visual-fortran-compiler-for-windows/topic/640393 > I suspect the installer is 16 bit and won't run on 64-bit windows. It's also not available as a free download. If he hasn't kept the media I suspect he may be at a dead end. Its costly licenced software which is well protected by its owners... > - John Dave From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 17:19:55 2019 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:19:55 -0500 Subject: Programming on metal cylinders? In-Reply-To: <20190423220122.B7B0F2739E@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <3ce10316-91cc-db19-4a6d-4bcbb8b2c29a@comcast.net> <20190421141703.85B6927502@mx1.ezwind.net> <7300016e-dcfb-a8c6-337d-6731b77badc4@sydex.com> <0dd301d4f9ab$a41b3f80$ec51be80$@gmail.com> <20190423220122.B7B0F2739E@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <720db660-d3d8-fd7a-d9a3-bc3471288ebe@gmail.com> I used Digital Visual FORTRAN quite a bit in the 90's.? I still have the installation CDs for v. 6.0A Professional Edition Intel version from December, 1998.? It featured most VAX extensions, I think.? But at the time, my main research machine was a Sun with twin 200MHz Ultrasparcs.? I wish I could have kept it. Carlos. John Foust via cctalk wrote: > At 03:07 AM 4/23/2019, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: >> Do you mean DIGITAL/Compaq FORTRAN for Windows? Or something older such as VAX Fortran which had many extensions. > Yes, it was under Windows. What do you know about it? > > I find these tips: > > https://software.intel.com/en-us/forums/intel-visual-fortran-compiler-for-windows/topic/640393 > > - John > > From guykd at optusnet.com.au Tue Apr 23 17:35:45 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 08:35:45 +1000 Subject: Televideo 925 character rom dump In-Reply-To: References: <5CBF2900.5050302@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190424083545.011f92d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> When I saw this thread I thought 'Oh, I have a 925!' Which was working last time (years ago.) But wouldn't you know. When I checked, it's a Televideo 924. Off by one. But perhaps the character ROM content is the same? Anyway I will see if it still works, and secure all the ROM images. Today. I have the user manuals, but does anyone have schematics for the 925 & 924? Guy At 09:38 AM 23/04/2019 -0700, you wrote: >On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 8:25 AM Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 11:02 AM Jon Elson via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> Is the ROM totally bad, or just losing a few bits here and >>> there? If the latter, you could probably read it out, figure >>> out how the rows, columns and characters are mapped, and fix it. >>> >> >> Considering that 925s are really common, and a replacement EPROM should be >> easy to source and program, this sounds like an overly difficult approach >> that will yield something different than what he wants. >> > >The thought had crossed my mind, but only as a last resort. I'm not >entirely sure what the internal fault is, but the end result is two rows of >every character have all bits stuck "on." I've verified that the ROM >addressing is correct and that there's nothing on the output side causing >this behavior. Patrick, thanks very much for offering to read the ROM! > >- Josh > > > >> Pat >> > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 23 18:34:55 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 16:34:55 -0700 Subject: Televideo 925 character rom dump In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190424083545.011f92d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <5CBF2900.5050302@pico-systems.com> <3.0.6.32.20190424083545.011f92d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <4110099a-399b-8f0e-16a0-37b9bdd51c79@bitsavers.org> On 4/23/19 3:35 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > When I saw this thread I thought 'Oh, I have a 925!' Which was working last time (years ago.) > But wouldn't you know. When I checked, it's a Televideo 924. Off by one. > > But perhaps the character ROM content is the same? > Anyway I will see if it still works, and secure all the ROM images. Today. > > I have the user manuals, but does anyone have schematics for the 925 & 924? I have maint manuals for the 925. Some photos of the boards and dumps of the keyboard firmware and controller would be nice to add to bitsavers, since I've not come across one. From earl at baugh.org Tue Apr 23 18:35:20 2019 From: earl at baugh.org (Earl Baugh) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 19:35:20 -0400 Subject: Need part for Sun 2/129 Message-ID: <5CFF1B81-7618-4504-B1C3-63D53E3591C6@baugh.org> I?m in the process of restoring a Sun 2/120 and realized that the unit I have doesn?t have the back plate and cables for monitor and keyboard/mouse. I have spare parts to trade for 2/120 ( including a sun 2/120 keyboard cable I found today. ) or can do $$ Earl Sent from my iPhone Sent from my iPhone From earl at baugh.org Tue Apr 23 18:35:20 2019 From: earl at baugh.org (Earl Baugh) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 19:35:20 -0400 Subject: Need part for Sun 2/129 Message-ID: <5CFF1B81-7618-4504-B1C3-63D53E3591C6@baugh.org> I?m in the process of restoring a Sun 2/120 and realized that the unit I have doesn?t have the back plate and cables for monitor and keyboard/mouse. I have spare parts to trade for 2/120 ( including a sun 2/120 keyboard cable I found today. ) or can do $$ Earl Sent from my iPhone Sent from my iPhone From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 19:35:31 2019 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:35:31 -0700 Subject: Televideo 925 character rom dump In-Reply-To: <6a2a5ee5-ddf0-579c-03a6-ab177573e489@bitsavers.org> References: <6a2a5ee5-ddf0-579c-03a6-ab177573e489@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Cool, thanks, Al! I'll give that a go. On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 5:20 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > it is the same one used in the 910 1800000-016A_A17_85AE.bin > > On 4/23/19 12:23 AM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > > Hi all -- > > > > I'm working on a Televideo 925 terminal with a few problems, one of which > > is a bad character generator ROM, (a MOS 2332). Does anyone have a dump > of > > this already, or have a working 925 they'd be able to dump the ROM from? > > > > Thanks in advance, > > Josh > > > > From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Tue Apr 23 19:34:55 2019 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 19:34:55 -0500 Subject: SIMH question Message-ID: <816D733525D947CDB816B3050F4A73A0@CharlesDellLap> This may be a silly question... but how can I transfer a text file from my PC into SIMH for PDP-11? Is it even possible to create a disk or tape image from source code? Attaching files requires them to be images... I have significant changes to make to TSGEN.MAC (TSX-Plus definitions file) and it will be MUCH easier to edit it on my laptop with a screen editor, than in SIMH (or on the real hardware) using the line editors! The only method that comes to mind is to start the actual 11/23+, open the text editor for input, then use a terminal program like Teraterm to "play" the file as though I were typing it in. But I don't have the rest of the TSX-Plus source files, linker, etc. so I would have to transfer them using VTserver anyway... thoughts? thanks Charles From fritzm at fritzm.org Tue Apr 23 19:57:51 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:57:51 -0700 Subject: SIMH question In-Reply-To: <816D733525D947CDB816B3050F4A73A0@CharlesDellLap> References: <816D733525D947CDB816B3050F4A73A0@CharlesDellLap> Message-ID: <7E5F33AF-C303-4B80-BEC8-3B85670881A6@fritzm.org> > On Apr 23, 2019, at 5:34 PM, Charles via cctalk wrote: > > This may be a silly question... but how can I transfer a text file from my PC into SIMH for PDP-11? I've found the most convenient way to do this, for a file or two at a time, is to use the paper tape reader/punch devices. These can be attached directly to single files on the SIMH host, then the contents can be copied into or out of a simulated OS with PIP, cp, etc. --FritzM. From pat at vax11.net Tue Apr 23 20:01:55 2019 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 21:01:55 -0400 Subject: Televideo 925 character rom dump In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 11:42 Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 4/23/19 4:43 AM, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk wrote: > > I should be able to do that for you if you don't find someone else with a > > dumped room sooner. > > I was wondering what TS-8xx systems you have that supported RS-422, > and if you've dumped the firmware from them. > > I can request the TS-806/20 in the collection and dump the firmware > and disk if that would be of help > > https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102747355 I have an 801, 802, 803, 816, and TPC-I. I think I still need to image the ROM from the TPC and 802. One thing I noticed is that the 803 ROM isn't the same as the later ROM shipped with the 803H. The earlier rom tried to talk to a hard disk using the code from the 802, at the wrong IO port. I ended up burning a copy of the 803H ROM from Bitsavers, and then was able to get it working with a hard disk interface. It'd be nice to have a copy of the disk and ROM for reference. It seems like the disks that TeleVideo used failed early and often, so it's probably best to image that sooner rather than later, and hope that it still works. An image from an 816 disk would be more useful, though, since I have the rest of the 816. Patrick Finnegan > > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Apr 23 21:16:34 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 02:16:34 +0000 Subject: SIMH question In-Reply-To: <7E5F33AF-C303-4B80-BEC8-3B85670881A6@fritzm.org> References: <816D733525D947CDB816B3050F4A73A0@CharlesDellLap> <7E5F33AF-C303-4B80-BEC8-3B85670881A6@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On 4/23/19 8:57 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: > >> On Apr 23, 2019, at 5:34 PM, Charles via cctalk wrote: >> >> This may be a silly question... but how can I transfer a text file from my PC into SIMH for PDP-11? > > I've found the most convenient way to do this, for a file or two at a time, is to use the paper tape reader/punch devices. These can be attached directly to single files on the SIMH host, then the contents can be copied into or out of a simulated OS with PIP, cp, etc. > Two more options. Get PUTR from dbit.com and use it to move the files onto an image you can then mount under SIMH. Or, KERMIT. bill From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 21:28:02 2019 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 21:28:02 -0500 Subject: Programming on metal cylinders? In-Reply-To: <20190423220122.B7B0F2739E@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <3ce10316-91cc-db19-4a6d-4bcbb8b2c29a@comcast.net> <20190421141703.85B6927502@mx1.ezwind.net> <7300016e-dcfb-a8c6-337d-6731b77badc4@sydex.com> <0dd301d4f9ab$a41b3f80$ec51be80$@gmail.com> <20190423220122.B7B0F2739E@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <2fef61a6-40b2-4d72-f5df-25b62e1ad03b@gmail.com> I used Digital Visual FORTRAN quite a bit in the 90's.? I still have the installation CDs for v. 6.0A Professional Edition Intel version from December, 1998.? It featured most VAX extensions, I think.? But at the time, my main research machine was a Sun with twin 200MHz Ultrasparcs.? I wish I could have kept it. Carlos. John Foust via cctalk wrote: > At 03:07 AM 4/23/2019, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: >> Do you mean DIGITAL/Compaq FORTRAN for Windows? Or something older such as VAX Fortran which had many extensions. > Yes, it was under Windows. What do you know about it? > > I find these tips: > > https://software.intel.com/en-us/forums/intel-visual-fortran-compiler-for-windows/topic/640393 > > - John > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 23 21:46:14 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 19:46:14 -0700 Subject: Programming on metal cylinders? In-Reply-To: <2fef61a6-40b2-4d72-f5df-25b62e1ad03b@gmail.com> References: <3ce10316-91cc-db19-4a6d-4bcbb8b2c29a@comcast.net> <20190421141703.85B6927502@mx1.ezwind.net> <7300016e-dcfb-a8c6-337d-6731b77badc4@sydex.com> <0dd301d4f9ab$a41b3f80$ec51be80$@gmail.com> <20190423220122.B7B0F2739E@mx1.ezwind.net> <2fef61a6-40b2-4d72-f5df-25b62e1ad03b@gmail.com> Message-ID: <45f1c3be-007e-a39e-a31f-a60275a0062c@sydex.com> On 4/23/19 7:28 PM, Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk wrote: > I used Digital Visual FORTRAN quite a bit in the 90's.? I still have the > installation CDs for v. 6.0A Professional Edition Intel version from > December, 1998.? It featured most VAX extensions, I think.? But at the > time, my main research machine was a Sun with twin 200MHz Ultrasparcs.? > I wish I could have kept it. I must have lost the thread--what does this have to do with inscribing metal cylinders for programming a system of the 1950s? Color me puzzled. --Chuck From dave at 661.org Tue Apr 23 21:58:51 2019 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 02:58:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Infocom mystery binary Message-ID: In one of the repositories of Infocom game source code recently uploaded to Github, there's an executable that appears to have come from an m68k Unix machine of some sort. It's at https://github.com/historicalsource/zork-german/blob/master/zap. Over at intfiction.org[1], it was initially claimed to be from a Macintosh. Then I suggested it was from a pre-Sparc Sun machine. Then someone else suggested it was from A/UX. Does anyone know anything more conclusive? I based my idea on what I got from running strings(1) on the file. Copyright (c) 1987 Apple Computer, Inc., 1985 Adobe Systems Incorporated, 1983-87 AT&T-IS, 1985-87 Motorola Inc., 1980-87 Sun Microsystems Inc., 1980-87 The Regents of the University of California, 1985-87 Unisoft Corporation, All Rights Reserved. [1] https://intfiction.org/t/infocom-source-code-posted/41156/23 -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Tue Apr 23 22:08:24 2019 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 22:08:24 -0500 Subject: SIMH question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9EB2E0EE16D84FB590E6C9F9C708C941@CharlesDellLap> On 4/23/19 8:57 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: > >> On Apr 23, 2019, at 5:34 PM, Charles via cctalk > classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >> This may be a silly question... but how can I transfer a text file from >> my PC into SIMH for PDP-11? > > I've found the most convenient way to do this, for a file or two at a > time, is to use the paper tape reader/punch devices. These can be > attached directly to single files on the SIMH host, then the contents can > be copied into or out of a simulated OS with PIP, cp, etc. > Two more options. Get PUTR from dbit.com and use it to move the files onto an image you can then mount under SIMH. Or, KERMIT. bill ========================================================= Thanks... unfortunately I'm running 64-bit Windows and just discovered PUTR will only run on a 32-bit (or even older) machine. There was some interest in 2016 about an updated version but I can't find one. I've got an ancient XP box upstairs that I use as a smart terminal for the PDP-8 (and PDP-11). So now I get to have fun getting an XP machine to network with a Win7. Sigh. From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 22:30:25 2019 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 20:30:25 -0700 Subject: SIMH question In-Reply-To: <9EB2E0EE16D84FB590E6C9F9C708C941@CharlesDellLap> References: <9EB2E0EE16D84FB590E6C9F9C708C941@CharlesDellLap> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 8:08 PM Charles via cctalk wrote: > > Get PUTR from dbit.com and use it to move the files onto an image > you can then mount under SIMH. > > ========================================================= > Thanks... unfortunately I'm running 64-bit Windows and just discovered PUTR > will only run on a 32-bit (or even older) machine. Maybe install Oracle VM VirtualBox (freely available as Open Source Software) on your 64-bit Windows system and run a 16-bit or 32-bit environment inside of that which can run PUTR. (Or install some other VM software of your choice). I run Windows 2000 inside of VirtualBox occasionally when I need to run some old 16-bit code that won't run in a 64-bit environment. Files can easily be moved between the VM and the host system. I used PUTR in the past when I wanted to assemble some code with the RT-11 assembler but wanted to edit the source code elsewhere and then transfer the code into a SIMH disk image. From phil at ultimate.com Tue Apr 23 22:42:21 2019 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 23:42:21 -0400 Subject: Infocom mystery binary In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201904240342.x3O3gLP6048145@ultimate.com> $ file zap zap: mc68k COFF object not stripped (demand paged) ISTR A/UX had a COFF. 68k SunOS used a.out format. From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Apr 23 23:01:34 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 22:01:34 -0600 Subject: Infocom mystery binary In-Reply-To: <201904240342.x3O3gLP6048145@ultimate.com> References: <201904240342.x3O3gLP6048145@ultimate.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 9:42 PM Phil Budne via cctalk wrote: > $ file zap > zap: mc68k COFF object not stripped (demand paged) > > ISTR A/UX had a COFF. 68k SunOS used a.out format. > SunOS used a.out for all architectures. Solaris used ELF. Warner P.s. the Solaris rebranding of SunOS notwithstanding. :) > From earl.baugh at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 17:48:08 2019 From: earl.baugh at gmail.com (Earl Baugh) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 18:48:08 -0400 Subject: Need a part for Sun 2/120. Message-ID: <0D0084BB-F826-4DC8-92FD-C54AFA6CB0BD@gmail.com> I?m in the process of restoring a Sun 2/120 and realized that the unit I have doesn?t have the back plate and cables for monitor and keyboard/mouse. I have spare parts to trade for 2/120 ( including a sun 2/120 keyboard cable I found today. ) or can do $$ Earl Sent from my iPhone From earl.baugh at gmail.com Tue Apr 23 17:48:08 2019 From: earl.baugh at gmail.com (Earl Baugh) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 18:48:08 -0400 Subject: Need a part for Sun 2/120. Message-ID: <0D0084BB-F826-4DC8-92FD-C54AFA6CB0BD@gmail.com> I?m in the process of restoring a Sun 2/120 and realized that the unit I have doesn?t have the back plate and cables for monitor and keyboard/mouse. I have spare parts to trade for 2/120 ( including a sun 2/120 keyboard cable I found today. ) or can do $$ Earl Sent from my iPhone From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 24 00:01:19 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 00:01:19 -0500 Subject: Infocom mystery binary In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 9:58 PM David Griffith via cctalk wrote: > In one of the repositories of Infocom game source code recently uploaded > to Github, there's an executable that appears to have come from an m68k > Unix machine of some sort. It's at > https://github.com/historicalsource/zork-german/blob/master/zap. Over at > intfiction.org[1], it was initially claimed to be from a Macintosh. Then > I suggested it was from a pre-Sparc Sun machine. Then someone else > suggested it was from A/UX. Does anyone know anything more conclusive? Doing file(1) on it, I get... $ file zap zap: mc68k COFF object not stripped (demand paged) I also happen to have another version (not from github) $ file sun/zap mc68020 demand paged dynamically linked executable not stripped _That_ one is a Sun3 binary. -ethan From dave at 661.org Wed Apr 24 05:14:58 2019 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:14:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Infocom mystery binary In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My reply is at the bottom. Please put your reply there too. On Wed, 24 Apr 2019, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 9:58 PM David Griffith via cctalk > wrote: >> In one of the repositories of Infocom game source code recently uploaded >> to Github, there's an executable that appears to have come from an m68k >> Unix machine of some sort. It's at >> https://github.com/historicalsource/zork-german/blob/master/zap. Over at >> intfiction.org[1], it was initially claimed to be from a Macintosh. Then >> I suggested it was from a pre-Sparc Sun machine. Then someone else >> suggested it was from A/UX. Does anyone know anything more conclusive? > > Doing file(1) on it, I get... > > $ file zap > zap: mc68k COFF object not stripped (demand paged) > > I also happen to have another version (not from github) > > $ file sun/zap > mc68020 demand paged dynamically linked executable not stripped > > _That_ one is a Sun3 binary. I see. Mystery solved! Oooo... Where did that one come from? When I first noticed that the binary wasn't stripped, I tried poking around with assorted disassemblers and decompilers hoping to get something resembling C code out of it. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From guykd at optusnet.com.au Wed Apr 24 07:39:37 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 22:39:37 +1000 Subject: Televideo 925 character rom dump In-Reply-To: <4110099a-399b-8f0e-16a0-37b9bdd51c79@bitsavers.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20190424083545.011f92d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <5CBF2900.5050302@pico-systems.com> <3.0.6.32.20190424083545.011f92d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190424223937.01075e00@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 04:34 PM 23/04/2019 -0700, you wrote: > > >On 4/23/19 3:35 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: [my Televideo 924] > >I have maint manuals for the 925. > >Some photos of the boards and dumps of the keyboard firmware and controller >would be nice to add to bitsavers, since I've not come across one. See pics and ROM images at http://everist.org/pics/televideo_924/ I haven't dumped the chargen chip yet, because I don't know what it is, and suspect it's more complex than just a ROM. 24 pin character gen ROM/? at U10 is marked: VTi (logo) 350 RN 118 2333-5006 8000142 (c)TELEVIDEO 1983 KOREA-AE See http://everist.org/pics/televideo_924/20190424_3338_chargen.jpg The keyboard controller is an 8049. Firmware not readable. Guy From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Wed Apr 24 07:48:06 2019 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 07:48:06 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Televideo 925 character rom dump In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190424223937.01075e00@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20190424083545.011f92d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <5CBF2900.5050302@pico-systems.com> <3.0.6.32.20190424083545.011f92d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190424223937.01075e00@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <1132016442.507003.1556110086011@email.ionos.com> > On April 24, 2019 at 7:39 AM Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > > I haven't dumped the chargen chip yet, because I don't know what it is, and suspect it's more complex than just a ROM. > 24 pin character gen ROM/? at U10 is marked: > > VTi (logo) > 350 RN 118 > 2333-5006 > 8000142 > (c)TELEVIDEO 1983 > KOREA-AE > > > Guy Likely an MOS Tech 2333 ROM chip. http://www.bitsavers.org/components/mosTechnology/_dataBooks/1982_MOS_Technology_Data_Catalog.pdf See page 2-145 Will "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." --? Antoine de Saint-Exupery "The names of global variables should start with? ? // "? --?https://isocpp.org From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Apr 24 08:10:08 2019 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 08:10:08 -0500 Subject: Infocom mystery binary In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20190424131020.15AC74E847@mx2.ezwind.net> At 05:14 AM 4/24/2019, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: >When I first noticed that the binary wasn't stripped, I tried poking around with assorted disassemblers and decompilers hoping to get something resembling C code out of it. And you found what? - John From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Apr 24 08:31:41 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 09:31:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RK611 Technical Manual needed Message-ID: <20190424133141.3326818C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Anyone have a copy of the RK611 Technical Manual (EK-RK611-TM-001 is the version that's attested)? It's not online. (I have a copy in my fiche set, but my fiche reader died - no, it's not the bulb, already changed that! :-) Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Apr 24 09:33:17 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:33:17 -0400 Subject: SIMH question In-Reply-To: <816D733525D947CDB816B3050F4A73A0@CharlesDellLap> References: <816D733525D947CDB816B3050F4A73A0@CharlesDellLap> Message-ID: > On Apr 23, 2019, at 8:34 PM, Charles via cctalk wrote: > > This may be a silly question... but how can I transfer a text file from my PC into SIMH for PDP-11? > Is it even possible to create a disk or tape image from source code? Attaching files requires them to be images... It depends on the PDP-11 OS you're running. There are tools for operating on the file systems inside image files for various file system types. John Wilson's PUTR tool is one example. My "flx" tool is another, it works on RSTS file systems only. paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Apr 24 10:05:08 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 11:05:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SIMH question Message-ID: <20190424150508.41F1618C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Glen Slick > when I wanted to assemble some code with the RT-11 assembler but wanted > to edit the source code elsewhere and then transfer the code into a > SIMH disk image. Someone should write the SIMH equivalent of Ersatz-11's 'DOS device' (which allows the -11 access to the file system on the host - and also the ability to send arbitrary commands to the emulator). I find it mind-bogglingly useful for going round the edit-compile loop, while using a good editor (Epsilon for me) on the host OS. Having written a Unix driver for the device, I have a sack of Unix commands that use it, e.g. to retrieve the file foo.c from the host, I just say 'hrd foo.c' to the PDP-11 Unix's shell, and it's there. Super-painless, and does't add any noticeable amount of time/work to going around the loop. I don't need to give the full file name since there's also 'hcd '. To change the switch register contents, 'sc '. Etc, etc. How all you SIMH users manage without it is beyond me. Luckily I only need -11 emulation, so I don't have to put up with life without it - and would refuse to. If anyone is seriously interested in adding it to SIMH, there's an -11 device spec available; I strongly suggest using the same spec; then for Unix, at least, all the -11 code (driver, user commands) is already done. Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 24 10:14:03 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 08:14:03 -0700 Subject: Televideo 925 character rom dump In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190424223937.01075e00@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20190424083545.011f92d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <5CBF2900.5050302@pico-systems.com> <3.0.6.32.20190424083545.011f92d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190424223937.01075e00@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On 4/24/19 5:39 AM, Guy Dunphy wrote: > The keyboard controller is an 8049. Firmware not readable. 8049s aren't protected. they are 2k versions of the 8048 and can be read as 8749s From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Apr 24 10:14:15 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 11:14:15 -0400 Subject: SIMH question In-Reply-To: <20190424150508.41F1618C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190424150508.41F1618C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5CB167BC-FB16-4649-B5D4-EDF24A7B9290@comcast.net> > On Apr 24, 2019, at 11:05 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Glen Slick > >> when I wanted to assemble some code with the RT-11 assembler but wanted >> to edit the source code elsewhere and then transfer the code into a >> SIMH disk image. > > Someone should write the SIMH equivalent of Ersatz-11's 'DOS device' (which > allows the -11 access to the file system on the host - and also the ability > to send arbitrary commands to the emulator). Alternatively, a newer PUTR. I started such a thing as an extension to flx.py a while ago but only did a few small bits. paul From jsw at ieee.org Wed Apr 24 11:09:04 2019 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 11:09:04 -0500 Subject: SIMH question In-Reply-To: <5CB167BC-FB16-4649-B5D4-EDF24A7B9290@comcast.net> References: <20190424150508.41F1618C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5CB167BC-FB16-4649-B5D4-EDF24A7B9290@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 4/24/19 10:14 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > On Apr 24, 2019, at 11:05 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk > wrote: >> >>> From: Glen Slick >>> when I wanted to assemble some code with the RT-11 assembler but wanted >>> to edit the source code elsewhere and then transfer the code into a >>> SIMH disk image. >> Someone should write the SIMH equivalent of Ersatz-11's 'DOS device' (which >> allows the -11 access to the file system on the host - and also the ability >> to send arbitrary commands to the emulator). > Alternatively, a newer PUTR. I started such a thing as an extension to flx.py a while ago but only did a few small bits. > > ? For RT11 (and TSX+)? filesystem images I have used pyRT11 - https://gitlab.com/NF6X_Retrocomputing/pyRT11 From lproven at gmail.com Wed Apr 24 11:18:16 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 18:18:16 +0200 Subject: SIMH question In-Reply-To: <9EB2E0EE16D84FB590E6C9F9C708C941@CharlesDellLap> References: <9EB2E0EE16D84FB590E6C9F9C708C941@CharlesDellLap> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 at 05:08, Charles via cctalk wrote: > Thanks... unfortunately I'm running 64-bit Windows and just discovered PUTR > will only run on a 32-bit (or even older) machine. 32-bit code _should_ run on 64-bit Win7/8.x/10. 16-bit code won't. Win7 has "XP Mode", which is a free download. It is MS VirtualPC plus a preinstalled, preactivated Win XP VM. It is possible to download run this VM image separately and run it under other hypervisors -- I described how here: https://www.theregister.co.uk/Print/2014/04/10/how_to_run_xp_on_new_windows/ What I dodged around is that you need a licence. Cracking it is also an option, of course. It just ended this month but there is also a legal hack to get another 5y of updates for XP. https://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/05/26/german_tinkerer_gets_around_xpocalypse/ Personally I used a 3rd party "distro" of XP called TinyXP (I used r9) for years. I would not recommend this any more, TBH, but it's possible. The same person, "eXPerience", who made TinyXP also made a Tiny7. It works but SP2 won't install, at which point they gave up. You _could_ run 32-bit Win10 under VirtualBox. I've done it. It works well, the ISO is a free download from Microsoft, and it's perfectly usable without activation. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Wed Apr 24 17:54:03 2019 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 17:54:03 -0500 Subject: VTserver problem (bug?) Message-ID: I sometimes use vtserver to download disk images to the RL02's on my PDP-11/23+. Takes quite a while at 9600 baud, too :) But there is some kind of bug that always appears at the same point, in the middle of the next 100K block after "6600K written". The data transfer stops (no more head motion/ready light flicker on the RL02), and the character that vtserver uses to indicate a write operation just repeats endlessly and rapidly until I kill it. Does anyone else encounter this limitation, and if so, how did you fix it? Fortunately I haven't wanted to image a disk that's more than 2/3 full so far... I make sure to squeeze the disk in SIMH before transferring the image. But it'd be nice to be able to image a full (10 MB) RL02 and not have to worry about it failing. Any ideas? thanks Charles From guykd at optusnet.com.au Wed Apr 24 18:55:51 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 09:55:51 +1000 Subject: Televideo 925 character rom dump In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190424223937.01075e00@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190424083545.011f92d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <5CBF2900.5050302@pico-systems.com> <3.0.6.32.20190424083545.011f92d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190424223937.01075e00@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190425095551.01064e20@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 08:14 AM 24/04/2019 -0700, you wrote: > > >On 4/24/19 5:39 AM, Guy Dunphy wrote: > >> The keyboard controller is an 8049. Firmware not readable. > >8049s aren't protected. they are 2k versions of the 8048 >and can be read as 8749s I did try reading it as an 8749. By 'not readable' I meant it read as all FF. Using a Topmax device programmer; a fairly good brand. Interestingly when I selected Intel 8749 it actually hung on reading. Repeatably. Never seen that happen before. Selecting NEC 8749, it read, but got all FFs. Considering there's something odd going on, I was quite relieved to verify the chip still works afterwards. I hadn't gone as far as getting out the databooks and checking whether 8049 should be readable. I thought they are, but the absense of '8049' type in the chip programmer seemed to suggest otherwise. Unless they were 'induced' to leave it out to hinder copying? Shall look into it further. Guy From guykd at optusnet.com.au Wed Apr 24 19:08:00 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 10:08:00 +1000 Subject: Televideo 925 character rom dump In-Reply-To: <1132016442.507003.1556110086011@email.ionos.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20190424223937.01075e00@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190424083545.011f92d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <5CBF2900.5050302@pico-systems.com> <3.0.6.32.20190424083545.011f92d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190424223937.01075e00@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190425100800.01096d38@mail.optusnet.com.au> Thanks, I'll check that. At 07:48 AM 24/04/2019 -0500, wrcooke at wrcooke.net wrote: > >> On April 24, 2019 at 7:39 AM Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: >> > >> I haven't dumped the chargen chip yet, because I don't know what it is, and suspect it's more complex than just a ROM. >> 24 pin character gen ROM/? at U10 is marked: >> >> VTi (logo) >> 350 RN 118 >> 2333-5006 >> 8000142 >> (c)TELEVIDEO 1983 >> KOREA-AE >> >> >> Guy > >Likely an MOS Tech 2333 ROM chip. http://www.bitsavers.org/components/mosTechnology/_dataBooks/1982_MOS_Technology_Data_Catalog.pdf >See page 2-145 > >Will From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Wed Apr 24 19:36:48 2019 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 19:36:48 -0500 Subject: Message-ID: <5B25FB6E13A6475D8A3857B6D13F164B@CharlesDellLap> >But there is some kind of bug that always appears at the same point, in the >middle of the next 100K block after "6600K written". >The data transfer stops (no more head motion/ready light flicker on the >RL02), and the character that vtserver uses to indicate a write operation >just repeats endlessly and rapidly until I kill it. More information and a correction: I let it run on, and it is still reading and writing, but at a much slower and intermittent rate than the first 6.6 MB. The filler character is just a time marker of some kind, since I can still see the "r" indicating a read from the .dsk image, and the light on the RL02 flickers after a few of those. So it's slowed way down, but not stopped! Even more mysterious. Anyway, this disk has 13800 blocks out of 20800 used. If RT-11 stores data (including the directory structure) starting from block 0, I may be able to kill the writes after 7 MB. (Unfortunately I think I neglected to squeeze the image before sending it to the RL - and naturally the important TSX files are near the end - which means I have to wait for most of it). If I have to do it again, I'll squeeze and then kill it after 7 MB and see what I got! From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Wed Apr 24 19:38:48 2019 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 19:38:48 -0500 Subject: VTserver problem (bug?) Message-ID: <426E5E207BCA42FB83FD84F015011A00@CharlesDellLap> -----Original Message----- >But there is some kind of bug that always appears at the same point, in the >middle of the next 100K block after "6600K written". >The data transfer stops (no more head motion/ready light flicker on the >RL02), and the character that vtserver uses to indicate a write operation >just repeats endlessly and rapidly until I kill it. More information and a correction: I let it run on, and it is still reading and writing, but at a much slower and intermittent rate than the first 6.6 MB. The filler character is just a time marker of some kind, since I can still see the "r" indicating a read from the .dsk image, and the light on the RL02 flickers after a few of those. So it's slowed way down, but not stopped! Even more mysterious. Anyway, this disk has 13800 blocks out of 20800 used. If RT-11 stores data (including the directory structure) starting from block 0, I may be able to kill the writes after 7 MB. (Unfortunately I think I neglected to squeeze the image before sending it to the RL - and naturally the important TSX files are near the end - which means I have to wait for most of it). If I have to do it again, I'll squeeze and then kill it after 7 MB and see what I got! From allisonportable at gmail.com Wed Apr 24 19:46:34 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 20:46:34 -0400 Subject: Televideo 925 character rom dump In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190425095551.01064e20@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20190424223937.01075e00@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190424083545.011f92d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <5CBF2900.5050302@pico-systems.com> <3.0.6.32.20190424083545.011f92d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190424223937.01075e00@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190425095551.01064e20@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <0bccb476-1117-6167-d3f1-95356cc33748@gmail.com> On 04/24/2019 07:55 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > At 08:14 AM 24/04/2019 -0700, you wrote: >> >> On 4/24/19 5:39 AM, Guy Dunphy wrote: >> >>> The keyboard controller is an 8049. Firmware not readable. >> 8049s aren't protected. they are 2k versions of the 8048 >> and can be read as 8749s > I did try reading it as an 8749. By 'not readable' I meant it read as all FF. > Using a Topmax device programmer; a fairly good brand. > Interestingly when I selected Intel 8749 it actually hung on reading. Repeatably. Never seen that happen before. > Selecting NEC 8749, it read, but got all FFs. > Considering there's something odd going on, I was quite relieved to verify the chip still works afterwards. > I hadn't gone as far as getting out the databooks and checking whether 8049 should be readable. > I thought they are, but the absense of '8049' type in the chip programmer seemed to suggest otherwise. Unless they > were 'induced' to leave it out to hinder copying? > Shall look into it further. > > Guy > The 8049 is readable just like the 8048 save for 2k device.? I worked for NEC back then and had access to intel parts too. If you can't read it its your programmers fault, FYI the set up is nearly the same as 8749 but the voltage for the read function is lower.? Here is except of page 2-19 of the intel MCS48 family manual july 78... "The processor is placed in the READ mode by applying a high voltage (+25V for the 8748, +12V for the 8048/8049) to the EA pin and +5V to the TO (8748 only) input pin. RESET must be at OV when voltage is applied to EA. The address of the location to be read is then applied to the same lines (TTL levels) of BUS and Port 2 which output the address during single step (see below), The address is latched by a "0" to "1" transition on RESET and a high level on RESET causes the contents of the program memory location addressed to appear on the eight lines of BUS." It is possible that the devices is being used with external rom/eprom the test for that is pin7 EA, if EA is high then program access is external.? it was very common to use any 8048/49 in place of 8035/39 in a system and often cheaper due to misprogrammed parts that can still be used with external rom. FYI there are no "protection bits". Allison From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 24 19:47:41 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 17:47:41 -0700 Subject: Televideo 925 character rom dump In-Reply-To: <0bccb476-1117-6167-d3f1-95356cc33748@gmail.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20190424223937.01075e00@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190424083545.011f92d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <5CBF2900.5050302@pico-systems.com> <3.0.6.32.20190424083545.011f92d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190424223937.01075e00@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190425095551.01064e20@mail.optusnet.com.au> <0bccb476-1117-6167-d3f1-95356cc33748@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 4/24/19 5:46 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: > The 8049 is readable just like the 8048 save for 2k device.? I worked > for NEC back then and had access to intel parts too. is that true for "HC" parts or just NMOS? From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Wed Apr 24 19:47:52 2019 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 19:47:52 -0500 Subject: VTserver problem (bug?) Message-ID: <5A06262BC873449980840AB2834AE49E@CharlesDellLap> And even more bizarrely... it crawled its way up to the 7400K block, and now it's going at normal speed again! 10MB should be done soon. I have no idea what could be causing this major slowdown from 6.6-7.4 MB. It's not the drive because two different ones do the same thing (and they work perfectly otherwise)... Hopefully I won't have to go through the (edit, reassemble, relink, PUTR transfer to an image, vtserver to the disk) loop too many times, attempting to get my DHV11/16D to function with TSX+ 6.50... I had somehow inserted a couple of characters that didn't belong there while editing (bumped the keyboard maybe?) so I'm on the second pass. Also I found what looks like a typo in the TSGEN.MAC file if anyone's interested. From allisonportable at gmail.com Wed Apr 24 19:51:20 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 20:51:20 -0400 Subject: Televideo 925 character rom dump In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190424223937.01075e00@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190424083545.011f92d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <5CBF2900.5050302@pico-systems.com> <3.0.6.32.20190424083545.011f92d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190424223937.01075e00@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190425095551.01064e20@mail.optusnet.com.au> <0bccb476-1117-6167-d3f1-95356cc33748@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 04/24/2019 08:47 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 4/24/19 5:46 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: > >> The 8049 is readable just like the 8048 save for 2k device.? I worked >> for NEC back then and had access to intel parts too. > is that true for "HC" parts or just NMOS? > > All!? The HC were different lower power process thats all.? if it were 8051 thats different. My samples include NMOS, NMOSII, and HCMOS.? and the NEC parts through CMOS Allison From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 24 19:51:49 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 17:51:49 -0700 Subject: Televideo 925 character rom dump In-Reply-To: <0bccb476-1117-6167-d3f1-95356cc33748@gmail.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20190424223937.01075e00@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190424083545.011f92d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <5CBF2900.5050302@pico-systems.com> <3.0.6.32.20190424083545.011f92d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190424223937.01075e00@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190425095551.01064e20@mail.optusnet.com.au> <0bccb476-1117-6167-d3f1-95356cc33748@gmail.com> Message-ID: >>>> The keyboard controller is an 8049. Firmware not readable. It may actually be compatible with the 955 keyboard, which I was able to read. Key layout is the same, though the manuf is different From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Wed Apr 24 21:15:32 2019 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 21:15:32 -0500 Subject: TSX-Plus help needed! Message-ID: OK, I have figured out how to modify TSGEN.MAC, use PUTR to make a disk image, load it in SIMH, reassemble, relink, and *finally* send it to an RL02 pack via vtserver! TIme-consuming but doable. I've been wrestling with this all day. BUT - TSX+ 6.50 just will not run. At all. Using RT-11SJ (5.01), after typing "R TSX" I can hear the disc access for a few seconds, a pause, a few more accesses... then nothing. It just hangs. Nothing on the console either., no response to . When starting it in SIMH (the same disk image), I get the error message ?TSX-F-Computer line clock is not working. Figured that was just a SIMH thing. But the address/vector is correct in TSGEN.MAC... and when checking TIME in RT-11, the seconds advance in real-time like it should. On the real hardware, the error message doesn't display, and the clock is running... My old version of TSX+ is 6.16 and it runs fine on console and SLU 2, just needs rebuilt to use different serial cards than the original system. So where should I start looking first? RT-11 version incompatibility? Any TSX+ experts online? Thanks for any help. This is driving me nuts! From pat at vax11.net Wed Apr 24 23:02:54 2019 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 00:02:54 -0400 Subject: Televideo 925 character rom dump In-Reply-To: References: <5CBF2900.5050302@pico-systems.com> <3.0.6.32.20190424083545.011f92d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190424223937.01075e00@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190425095551.01064e20@mail.optusnet.com.au> <0bccb476-1117-6167-d3f1-95356cc33748@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 8:51 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > > >>>> The keyboard controller is an 8049. Firmware not readable. > > It may actually be compatible with the 955 keyboard, which I was able to > read. > Key layout is the same, though the manuf is different > The 924 should be the same as a 955 keyboard. There seemed to be two compatible types of the keyboard - an older thicker keyboard (shipped the TS-803 et al, and looks like an enhanced 925/950 keyboard), and a newer thinner profile keyboard used on later terminals. >From what I've figured out, the 955 uses a 6-pin connector at 9600 baud with both Tx and Rx used, and a reset line and +12V power. The 925/950 use a 4-pin connector, replaces the Tx to keyboard line with a speaker connection, drops the reset line, and runs at 1200 baud as compared to the 955 keyboard. The keyboard should be the same between the 905, 955, 970, TS-803, and some others with the possible difference of some legends on keycaps. The TS-802, 800A, 925, and 950 use the same keyboard +/- some legends. Later terminals like the 965 use a 4-pin connector with a different pinout, and +5V supply instead of +12V, but still at 9600 baud with the same codes as the 970/etc. I believe that the transmitted codes are the same for all of them, but the older 925/950 keyboard is missing some keys than the later 970/955/etc have. The TPC-I, TPC-II, TS-1605 all use a PC/XT-like keyboard interface, but with a +12V power supply instead of +5V. I haven't quite verified if one can swap them with XT keyboards with an alternate power supply yet, but it may be possible. It seems like they should be compatible since the TS-1605/TPC-II are fairly compatible with PC/XTs. Pat From johnforecast at comcast.net Wed Apr 24 13:17:56 2019 From: johnforecast at comcast.net (John Forecast) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 14:17:56 -0400 Subject: Ultrix 3.0 VAX Message-ID: <358CEB99-2030-4361-9DCB-ACFD011A509C@comcast.net> Dennis, It sounds like you are looking for an Ultrix 3.0 standalone boot tape. While I found a number of people who claim to have a physical tape, with some claiming to have imaged the tape, I was unable to find an image on-line. That being said, it?s possible to use the Ultrix 2.0 standalone bootable tape (AQ-JU00C, available from bitsavers.org) with a couple of edits at the end - I did this to get 2.2 up and running. Since Ultrix 2.0 only supports a limited number VAX processors, the first stage has to be run on one of those processors, I always use microvax2. Subsequent stages may be run on any processor supported by Ultrix 3.0. Stage 1: I use the following .ini file: # Boot from standalone tape. This MUST be performed on a microvax2 instance. set rl dis set ts dis set rq0 ra81 att rq0 system.dsk att tq0 AQ-JU00C-BE_ULTRIX-32_2.0_SA_87.tap set tti 7b set tto 7b boo Attach the Ultrix 3.0 supported tape to tq0 when it asks. This stage will create the root partition and restore from the tape. No special handling at this point, just answer the questions as for a normal install. Stage 2: Use the VAX simulator for the target system (I used vax780) and boot rq0. After answering some questions it will fail trying to create a file system on /dev/rra0 which doesn?t exist - you need to edit /.minidevice as follows: # ed .minidevice 22 1 RA81 ra 0 TK50 tms 0 s/0/0g RA81 ra 0g TK50 tms 0 w 23 q Reboot the system and it will create a file system on /dev/ra0g, copy the base packages along with any you have selected and build a custom kernel. After all this reboot again and it will drop you into single user mode after complaining about "Can't stat /dev/ra0ga?. Edit /etc/fstab: # ed /etc/fstab 54 1 /dev/ra0ga:/:rw:1:1:ufs:: s/0g/0 /dev/ra0a:/:rw:1:1:ufs:: w 53 q Reboot again and you should have a functioning system. John. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 25 10:55:26 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 08:55:26 -0700 Subject: Televideo 925 character rom dump In-Reply-To: References: <5CBF2900.5050302@pico-systems.com> <3.0.6.32.20190424083545.011f92d0@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190424223937.01075e00@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20190425095551.01064e20@mail.optusnet.com.au> <0bccb476-1117-6167-d3f1-95356cc33748@gmail.com> Message-ID: <431050fe-66fc-dc4a-24b3-00b520ece330@bitsavers.org> > The 924 should be the same as a 955 keyboard.? There seemed to be two compatible types of the keyboard - an older > thicker keyboard (shipped the TS-803 et al, and looks like an enhanced 925/950 keyboard), and a newer thinner profile > keyboard used on later terminals. > > From what I've figured out, the 955 uses a 6-pin connector at 9600 baud with both Tx and Rx used, and a reset line and > +12V power. The 925/950 use a 4-pin connector, replaces the Tx to keyboard line with a speaker connection, drops the > reset line, and runs at 1200 baud as compared to the 955 keyboard.? The keyboard should be the same between the 905, > 955, 970, TS-803, and some others with the possible difference of some legends on keycaps.? The TS-802, 800A, 925, and > 950 use the same keyboard?+/- some legends.? > > Later terminals like the 965 use a 4-pin connector with a different pinout, and?+5V supply instead of?+12V, but still at > 9600 baud with the same codes as the 970/etc. > Alex Riedlmayer has been doing a lot of work on simulating Televideo terminals in MAME. There should be a lot of (if cryptic) info on the logic boards and the high-level or uP simulated keyboards in the sources. From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Thu Apr 25 21:39:08 2019 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 19:39:08 -0700 Subject: Sun SS2 SBus memory expansion parts Message-ID: <88D2F4B0-9E3D-4176-8576-3A07AC892B4E@eschatologist.net> I have the 32MB memory expansion card for my SPARCstation 2 (P/N 501-1823) but not the accompanying cable (501-1814) or 32MB mezzanine card (501-1824). Does anyone have either the cable or mezzanine card that they?d be willing to part with for a reasonable price? I?ve only found sellers carrying them for hundreds of dollars recently; I managed to snag the ?1823 from someone who was selling it far more reasonably, probably because they didn?t know what they could get for it. -- Chris From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Apr 25 21:41:47 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 19:41:47 -0700 Subject: Sun SS2 SBus memory expansion parts In-Reply-To: <88D2F4B0-9E3D-4176-8576-3A07AC892B4E@eschatologist.net> References: <88D2F4B0-9E3D-4176-8576-3A07AC892B4E@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <818645BD-1C4D-40EB-8778-1E003A0F647D@avanthar.com> It?s possible to make the cable yourself, that?s what I did for my SS2. Sounds like I need to dig through my Sun cards, I think I have a second 501-1823. Zane > On Apr 25, 2019, at 7:39 PM, Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: > > I have the 32MB memory expansion card for my SPARCstation 2 (P/N 501-1823) but not the accompanying cable (501-1814) or 32MB mezzanine card (501-1824). > > Does anyone have either the cable or mezzanine card that they?d be willing to part with for a reasonable price? I?ve only found sellers carrying them for hundreds of dollars recently; I managed to snag the ?1823 from someone who was selling it far more reasonably, probably because they didn?t know what they could get for it. > > -- Chris > From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Thu Apr 25 21:41:56 2019 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 19:41:56 -0700 Subject: Sun SS2 SBus memory expansion parts In-Reply-To: <88D2F4B0-9E3D-4176-8576-3A07AC892B4E@eschatologist.net> References: <88D2F4B0-9E3D-4176-8576-3A07AC892B4E@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: On Apr 25, 2019, at 7:39 PM, Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: > > I have the 32MB memory expansion card for my SPARCstation 2 (P/N 501-1823) but not the accompanying cable (501-1814) or 32MB mezzanine card (501-1824). Of course I meant 530-1814 as the Sun part number for the cable. We deeply regret such grievous inaccuracy. -- Chris From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Apr 26 07:49:43 2019 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 12:49:43 +0000 Subject: Elliott 5-level code: just in case you have some oddball 5-level paper tapes Message-ID: Immensely happy this morning to have finally tracked this down. This is a 5-level code by Elliott used on many of their computers. It seems to have used standard looking 5-level teletype I/O devices but with custom typewheel and keyboard/function bar encoding. It has 3 things in common with other 5-level codes: 1: Letter shift and Number/Figure shift 2: Null is all zeroes 3: Letter shift is all ones and also works as delete just like the other codes But some interesting properties, different than other 5 level codes: 1: Letter shift has the letters in alphabetic A-Z sequence. 2: In number shift, the lower 4 bits are the digit 0-9, and the upper bit is a parity 3: Figure shift, space, carriage return, and line feed are at the extreme top end of the code space right under letter shift. The code is documented in Figure B.2 of this wonderful document: http://rabbit.eng.miami.edu/oldcomputers/Elliott-400-series.pdf I'm a little surprised that my standard character code references don't mention this. This is a super elegant layout that any of the 1960's character code standard guys must've known about, but somehow it never made it into any of my usual reference books. Maybe MacKenzie was just too dismissive of all 5-bit codes. He mentions ITA2 for a couple pages and then never talks about 5-level codes again, but he never stops talking about BCDIC and he goes on and on about hypothetical 12-row punchcard ASCII. Tim N3QE From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Apr 26 10:41:41 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 15:41:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: No subject References: <2026096409.868779.1556293301539.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2026096409.868779.1556293301539@mail.yahoo.com> Tom -? ?Thanks much for? ?filling in? some of the blanks on the history!? ?Ed# In a message dated 4/23/2019 2:36:37 PM US Mountain Standard Time, t.gardner at computer.org writes: ISS was an independent company in the era (late 60s) of the 714 (IBM 2314 compatible).? It was later acquired by Itel (a leasing company) and then by Univac and sort of disappeared in the 80s. Depending upon your application almost any plug compatible 2314 might work or could be made to work.? The interfaces were very much 2314 like except the PCMs and OEMs didn't use IBMs +/- 1.5v signaling levels on the interface but instead used DTL driver/receiver signaling.? There was also some weirdness in the power sequencing all of which can be worked around if u are up to it. Tom -----Original Message----- From: ED SHARPE [mailto:couryhouse at aol.com] Sent: Monday, April 22, 2019 11:37 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org; aek at bitsavers.org Subject: Re: Telex 20 Meg 10 platter very heavy monster drive needed drop line off list..r Thanks? Al? yes, that? is? the? one. and? as? I? recall? ISS? was a? offshoot? on? univac Do? you? have? any? Thanks Ed# In a message dated 4/22/2019 11:34:58 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: Thanks? Al? yes, that? is? the? one. and? as? I? recall? ISS? was a? offshoot? on? univac?In a message dated 4/22/2019 11:21:50 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: On 4/22/19 11:05 AM, ED SHARPE wrote:> Al,? the? drive? you mention at? its? largest? was? 7.5 meg? and? 6? platters... not? ? the? one Telex bought their drives from ISS.You're looking for a ISS 714 (ca. 1970) 2314 compat.https://ia800608.us.archive.org/15/items/TNM_Information_Storage_Systems_-_714_Disk_Storag_20170630_0180/TNM_Information_Storage_Systems_-_714_Disk_Storag_20170630_0180.pdf aek at bitsavers.org;cctalk From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Apr 26 11:15:21 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 09:15:21 -0700 Subject: NOS HP 7906 disk heads Message-ID: <244e2305-ae3f-5828-0006-4954d9e6b2e6@bitsavers.org> If someone needs top heads, this seems to be a decent price https://www.ebay.com/itm/303136246855 From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Apr 26 12:15:30 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 13:15:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: H960 rack on eBay Message-ID: <20190426171530.1A1A118C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> H960 (rack only, really, although it looks like there are two NA11-N/S sheaths as well): https://www.ebay.com/itm/123729450695 Not a bad price; pick-up only though (just as well, considering how much it costs to ship the blasted things). Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Apr 26 13:15:48 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 11:15:48 -0700 Subject: H960 rack on eBay In-Reply-To: <20190426171530.1A1A118C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190426171530.1A1A118C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 4/26/19 10:15 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > H960 (rack only) from the infamous Houston storage unit bottom-feeder From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Fri Apr 26 13:53:53 2019 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 13:53:53 -0500 Subject: H960 rack on eBay In-Reply-To: <20190426171530.1A1A118C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190426171530.1A1A118C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 4/26/2019 12:15 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > H960 (rack only, really, although it looks like there are two NA11-N/S sheaths > as well): > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/123729450695 > > Not a bad price; pick-up only though (just as well, considering how much it > costs to ship the blasted things). > > Noel > Some of what was in that rack are here: PDP-11/34 SMD Disk controller: BA11 Chassis: -- John H. Reinhardt From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 26 14:25:14 2019 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 19:25:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: H960 rack on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <20190426171530.1A1A118C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <61050498.1088869.1556306714029@mail.yahoo.com> This system was also connected to one or more CDC 9766 drives. Brian. On Friday, April 26, 2019, 2:54:09 PM EDT, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: On 4/26/2019 12:15 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > H960 (rack only, really, although it looks like there are two NA11-N/S sheaths > as well): > >? ? https://www.ebay.com/itm/123729450695 > > Not a bad price; pick-up only though (just as well, considering how much it > costs to ship the blasted things). > >? ? ? ? Noel > Some of what was in that rack are here: PDP-11/34 SMD Disk controller: BA11 Chassis: -- John H. Reinhardt From dennis.grevenstein at gmail.com Fri Apr 26 16:52:39 2019 From: dennis.grevenstein at gmail.com (Dennis Grevenstein) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 23:52:39 +0200 Subject: Ultrix 3.0 VAX Message-ID: <29A951DE-A1C7-4252-B1DD-029EB3D0CB99@gmail.com> Hi John, thank you for the idea. I finally managed to boot and install Ultrix 3.0. I prepared a new harddisk image under Ultrix 4.0. I could find /usr/sys/SAS.net/vmunix in the Ultrix 3.0 distribution tapes. This is a standalone kernel that will start the installation process. It can be booted like a normal kernel and can use the 3.0 tape images available from bitsavers. Dennis From healyzh at avanthar.com Sat Apr 27 15:21:25 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2019 13:21:25 -0700 Subject: Modern Rack Rails in Classic Racks? Message-ID: How safe is it to put modern rack rails (HP) in a classic DEC Rack? The DEC racks have small holes, while the new HP racks, IIRC, have big square holes. It looks like the rails will work, they just won?t clip flush. Zane From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Apr 27 16:03:42 2019 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2019 16:03:42 -0500 Subject: Modern Rack Rails in Classic Racks? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: doesnt really mater the moder design just made it so u could use different screw sizes on them From steven at malikoff.com Sat Apr 27 17:31:09 2019 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2019 08:31:09 +1000 Subject: Modern Rack Rails in Classic Racks? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4a93aa9b1f59db4e68e8b32ac9688c65.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Zan said > How safe is it to put modern rack rails (HP) in a classic DEC Rack? The DEC racks have small holes, while the new HP racks, IIRC, have big square holes. It looks like the rails will work, they just won?t clip flush. > > Zane I have been modifying quite a few hodgepodge pairs of modern server rack slides for H960's. It's the same set of steps to go through on each one. The very first consideration is to pick a pair of slides that are firstly a) strong enough construction to hold heavy (Unibus) gear and b) thin enough so they will accommodate the gear widthwise. Not all slides I've done could have worked for an PDP-11/15 in a 19" rack as the box was really taxing the maximum width. Measure the slide widths and gear with some degree of accuracy before committing time and effort to modifying a pair of slides. The next thing is to remove all the modern quick-release latches, levers, buttons, pins, pivoting plates and other crap. Also the riveted rear bracket has to come off, so I use a die grinder and cutoff wheel to do all these. It's very satisfying to end up with a bare set of slides. All ,modern slides are too long, so I set them up on the H960, scribe the length at the back then disassemble and cut the outer rails to length then drill the outer ends for a removeable backstop screw so the inner rails don't slide out the back. Using the rear bracket removed in step 1, I cut to size and refit these at the back with small countersunk screws so the inner rails can traverse over them. Often an extra pair of rack unit-spaced holes are required to be drilled. Use an engineer's square to check things are really square and accurate, or the slides will bind a bit when in use with heavy equipment (you can almost bet on this). The next inner rail is then fitted, 90 deg scribed and trimmed at the front. I use an air body saw for this but sometimes also a plain old hacksaw. Each pair needs to be modified accordingly to its locations of the front and rear roller guide wheels, the latches and so on. Wipe everything clean of metal shavings. The innermost rail is then fitted and cut to length at the front. Sometimes some extra retract length can be obtained by repositioning something, or cutting away an indented stopper or spring-lock latch. Again a stopper screw may be required to prevent the gear falling out the front this time. Then the mounting holes for the gear are drilled in the inner rails. For the PDP-11/15 I needed to have a pivoting arrangement so I machined a pair of thin stepped bushes which worked well. I use modern M6 server rack screws as they are easy and cheap to buy on eBay. Even some of these need occasional fitting, for instance the Digitronics paper tape reader had inset mounting screw holes in the front panel that were a tiny bit small for the pan-head screws, so I machined the head diameter down a fraction. For the square holes, I use soft aluminium washers which the rack srew draws into the square and centres up when it is tightened. In summary - you can adapt modern rack slides to fit old gear and racks, but it's a surprising amount of metalwork even with a good arrangement of tools. I still have a lot of them to do. Steve. From healyzh at avanthar.com Sat Apr 27 18:15:12 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2019 16:15:12 -0700 Subject: Modern Rack Rails in Classic Racks? In-Reply-To: <4a93aa9b1f59db4e68e8b32ac9688c65.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <4a93aa9b1f59db4e68e8b32ac9688c65.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <1B0F357C-B07A-4EC6-8464-3E739D2AC967@avanthar.com> > On Apr 27, 2019, at 3:31 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > > Zan said >> How safe is it to put modern rack rails (HP) in a classic DEC Rack? The DEC racks have small holes, while the new HP racks, IIRC, have big square holes. It looks like the rails will work, they just won?t clip flush. >> >> Zane > > I have been modifying quite a few hodgepodge pairs of modern server rack slides for > H960's. It's the same set of steps to go through on each one. > > The very first consideration is to pick a pair of slides that are firstly a) strong > enough construction to hold heavy (Unibus) gear and b) thin enough so they will > accommodate the gear widthwise. Not all slides I've done could have worked for an > PDP-11/15 in a 19" rack as the box was really taxing the maximum width. Measure the > slide widths and gear with some degree of accuracy before committing time and effort > to modifying a pair of slides. > > The next thing is to remove all the modern quick-release latches, levers, buttons, pins, > pivoting plates and other crap. Also the riveted rear bracket has to come off, so I use > a die grinder and cutoff wheel to do all these. It's very satisfying to end up with a bare > set of slides. > > All ,modern slides are too long, so I set them up on the H960, scribe the length at the > back then disassemble and cut the outer rails to length then drill the outer ends for a > removeable backstop screw so the inner rails don't slide out the back. > Using the rear bracket removed in step 1, I cut to size and refit these at the back with > small countersunk screws so the inner rails can traverse over them. Often an extra pair > of rack unit-spaced holes are required to be drilled. Use an engineer's square to check > things are really square and accurate, or the slides will bind a bit when in use with heavy > equipment (you can almost bet on this). > > The next inner rail is then fitted, 90 deg scribed and trimmed at the front. I use an air body > saw for this but sometimes also a plain old hacksaw. Each pair needs to be modified > accordingly to its locations of the front and rear roller guide wheels, the latches and > so on. Wipe everything clean of metal shavings. > > The innermost rail is then fitted and cut to length at the front. Sometimes some extra > retract length can be obtained by repositioning something, or cutting away an indented > stopper or spring-lock latch. Again a stopper screw may be required to prevent the > gear falling out the front this time. > > Then the mounting holes for the gear are drilled in the inner rails. For the PDP-11/15 > I needed to have a pivoting arrangement so I machined a pair of thin stepped bushes > which worked well. > > I use modern M6 server rack screws as they are easy and cheap to buy on eBay. Even some > of these need occasional fitting, for instance the Digitronics paper tape reader had > inset mounting screw holes in the front panel that were a tiny bit small for the pan-head > screws, so I machined the head diameter down a fraction. > > For the square holes, I use soft aluminium washers which the rack srew draws into the > square and centres up when it is tightened. > > In summary - you can adapt modern rack slides to fit old gear and racks, but it's a > surprising amount of metalwork even with a good arrangement of tools. I still have a lot > of them to do. > > Steve. I was going to say I?m lucky, in that I?m looking to mount a modern system (HP DL380). Plus I found a really cheap, and easy to move modern rack that I?ll pick up, mid next week. Then it hit me, I?d sort of like to drop a MicroVAX III in the bottom of this rack, in part to allow the use of the system, and in part for weight. It might also be nice to rig a PDP-11 in there as well. I have four DEC Racks, two of the short ones that house my PDP-11/44, a taller rack intended for RA7x and RA9x drives, then there is the tallest, the H960. All these racks are basically full (static storage, if I?m honest). I?ve used a Gorilla Rack for years to house all the desktop systems that have made up my ?home datacenter?, but now I find I need to think about a real rack. Actually I don?t need a modern rack, in writing the above it hit me, prior to the Gorilla rack, I?d been using some wooden racks, and based on a quick check, they should just fit. I have a ton of these, that I no longer use, and they?ve been sitting disassembled taking up space. Problem solved, for now, and I don?t see me adding more than a couple modern rack mount systems out in the garage due to power and cooling constraints. To land this server, I?m retiring two older DEC systems, which will be virtualized. My thanks to you and Adrian for your answers, at some point I?m sure I?ll put this knowledge to use, thankfully it looks like it won?t be today. Zane From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Sat Apr 27 20:23:40 2019 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2019 18:23:40 -0700 Subject: Tandem 6526 information? Message-ID: <6A9A3116-4986-48AB-974F-7951E6736C70@eschatologist.net> A friend not on the list obtained a Tandem 6526 terminal. In the process of trying to refurbish it, the first 80 bytes of its ROM got trashed. Does anyone happen to have one so she could recover from this? Also, she has no keyboard, and no information about Tandem?s block mode or other protocols (much less the keyboard interface), does anyone know where to find such details or have a manual handy? ? Chris Sent from my iPad From raywjewhurst at gmail.com Sun Apr 28 16:55:07 2019 From: raywjewhurst at gmail.com (Ray Jewhurst) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2019 17:55:07 -0400 Subject: Greetings Message-ID: I am new to the list and would like to introduce myself. I am a computer history buff who especially likes DEC machines. I unfortunately don't own any hardware but I use Simh on a daily basis. I would like to start off with a question. I see that Bitsavers has a copy of VMS 1.5 and wanted to know if anyone got it working with the Vax 780 simulator? I hope to learn a lot from this group. Thanks Ray From rich.cini at verizon.net Sun Apr 28 11:24:06 2019 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2019 12:24:06 -0400 Subject: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11? Message-ID: <8DB673B5-7547-4C93-8DA6-C52A61566DA9@verizon.net> All ? ??????????????? Over the last few months, I?ve built myself a nice little PDP-11/23 with a SCSI interface/drive, extra SLUs and Ethernet. With the help of a few people, I was able to get an Ethernet configuration running, which is kind of cool. It?s been a great learning process getting this up and running. It?s a Q18 system, so memory is limited and I don?t think able to run BSD (I?m running RT-11 right now). So, for playing around, what can I practically do with this? Is it even possible to access any Web sites (unconventional browsing for sure; I?ve read about telnetting to port 80)? I?m sure email is possible, as is FTP/Telnet (I?ve used that inside my lab setup), but I don?t really know where to start with that. ??????????????? If anyone has any pointers/suggestions, I?d appreciate it. ??????????????? Thanks! Rich -- Rich Cini http://www.classiccmp.org/cini http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32 From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun Apr 28 19:15:19 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2019 18:15:19 -0600 Subject: Greetings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <67ff4fb5-7a62-0835-07a4-2cbe0626d565@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 4/28/19 3:55 PM, Ray Jewhurst via cctalk wrote: > I am new to the list and would like to introduce myself. I > am a computer history buff who especially likes DEC machines. Welcome. > I unfortunately don't own any hardware but I use Simh on a daily > basis. I would like to start off with a question. I see that Bitsavers > has a copy of VMS 1.5 and wanted to know if anyone got it working > with the Vax 780 simulator? I've not messed with VMS 1.5 on anything. But I have gotten OpenVMS 7.3 (memory?) to work in Simh quite happily. If you join a DECUS (?) user group, you can legally get a hobbyist license to run the latest VAX / Alpha OpenVMS on multiple systems for free. Seeing as how easy it is to do, I encourage people to legally obtain licenses and download install media (images) from HPE directly. IMHO the OpenVMS hobbyist program is very nice and we want to keep it around. > I hope to learn a lot from this group. I know I have. I bet that most people can. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun Apr 28 20:28:07 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2019 19:28:07 -0600 Subject: Greetings In-Reply-To: References: <67ff4fb5-7a62-0835-07a4-2cbe0626d565@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <11961447-0d79-55c6-d1a1-e6373749fdd3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 4/28/19 6:27 PM, Ray Jewhurst wrote: > I already have a Hobbyist License.? I am just interested in > experimenting with different OSes and different versions of OSes. ACK I don't know what VAX hardware VMS 1.5 supported, what VAX hardware that Simh supports, or what the overlap is between the two. There's a reasonable chance that someone will chime in with experience. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Sun Apr 28 18:24:14 2019 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2019 18:24:14 -0500 (CDT) Subject: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11? In-Reply-To: <8DB673B5-7547-4C93-8DA6-C52A61566DA9@verizon.net> References: <8DB673B5-7547-4C93-8DA6-C52A61566DA9@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1559201979.776980.1556493854737@email.ionos.com> > On April 28, 2019 at 11:24 AM Richard Cini via cctech wrote: > > So, for playing around, what can I practically do with this? Is it even possible to access any Web sites (unconventional browsing for sure; I?ve read about telnetting to port 80)? I?m sure email is possible, as is FTP/Telnet (I?ve used that inside my lab setup), but I don?t really know where to start with that. > > > > ??????????????? If anyone has any pointers/suggestions, I?d appreciate it. > Maybe it would be possible to get a text only browser running? https://lynx.browser.org/ "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." --? Antoine de Saint-Exupery "The names of global variables should start with? ? // "? --?https://isocpp.org From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Apr 28 18:44:02 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2019 17:44:02 -0600 Subject: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11? In-Reply-To: <1559201979.776980.1556493854737@email.ionos.com> References: <8DB673B5-7547-4C93-8DA6-C52A61566DA9@verizon.net> <1559201979.776980.1556493854737@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 28, 2019, 5:24 PM Will Cooke via cctech wrote: > > > On April 28, 2019 at 11:24 AM Richard Cini via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > So, for playing around, what can I practically do with this? Is it even > possible to access any Web sites (unconventional browsing for sure; I?ve > read about telnetting to port 80)? I?m sure email is possible, as is > FTP/Telnet (I?ve used that inside my lab setup), but I don?t really know > where to start with that. > > > > > > > > If anyone has any pointers/suggestions, I?d appreciate > it. > > > > Maybe it would be possible to get a text only browser running? > https://lynx.browser.org/ Text only without crypto might be possible. However, with the hard limit of 64k+64k, even with overlays, is going to be a heavy lift. Warner > "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing > left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." -- Antoine de > Saint-Exupery > > > "The names of global variables should start with // " -- > https://isocpp.org > From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Apr 29 00:34:39 2019 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2019 22:34:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11? In-Reply-To: <1559201979.776980.1556493854737@email.ionos.com> from Will Cooke via cctalk at "Apr 28, 19 06:24:14 pm" Message-ID: <201904290534.x3T5YdwO26214444@floodgap.com> > Maybe it would be possible to get a text only browser running? I think Gopher would be a better fit, personally. That's easy to write, parse and display. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Complete indifference to suffering is our duty. -- V. I. Lenin ------------- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 29 02:20:17 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 01:20:17 -0600 Subject: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11? In-Reply-To: <201904290534.x3T5YdwO26214444@floodgap.com> References: <201904290534.x3T5YdwO26214444@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 4/28/2019 11:34 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: >> Maybe it would be possible to get a text only browser running? > > I think Gopher would be a better fit, personally. That's easy to write, > parse and display. > That might be true, but what sites still provide that service. A web novel app might work. 5K of REAL text, 5Meg of ads,pop ups and java script. :( Ben. From spc at conman.org Mon Apr 29 03:49:22 2019 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 04:49:22 -0400 Subject: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11? In-Reply-To: References: <201904290534.x3T5YdwO26214444@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20190429084922.GC5400@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great ben via cctalk once stated: > On 4/28/2019 11:34 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: > >>Maybe it would be possible to get a text only browser running? > > > >I think Gopher would be a better fit, personally. That's easy to write, > >parse and display. > > > That might be true, but what sites still provide that service. There are quite a few active gopher sites out there. You can start with: gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/1/world but wait! There's more! gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/1/fun/xkcd gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/1/feeds/latest gopher://gopher.altexxanet.org/1/textfiles.com gopher://1436.ninja/1/Project_Gutenberg_in_Gopherspace gopher://hngopher.com/ gopher://sdf.org/1/users/julienxx/Lobste.rs and some phlogs (gopher blogs): gopher://gopher.black/1/moku-pona gopher://i-logout.cz/1/en/bongusta/ (although there's some overlap between these two). -spc From allisonportable at gmail.com Mon Apr 29 06:50:22 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 07:50:22 -0400 Subject: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11? In-Reply-To: References: <201904290534.x3T5YdwO26214444@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <53c85ed9-8635-65a7-f2c1-5ecb64aa7b16@gmail.com> On 04/29/2019 03:20 AM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 4/28/2019 11:34 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: >>> Maybe it would be possible to get a text only browser running? >> >> I think Gopher would be a better fit, personally. That's easy to write, >> parse and display. >> > That might be true, but what sites still provide that service. > A web novel app might work. 5K of REAL text, 5Meg of ads,pop ups and > java script. :( > Ben. > > > With a PDP-11/23 and full boat ram (18bit) you can run more than RT-11 and something like V6 unix or maybe RSX might be a better choice for anything networking.? An OS that supports swapping and maybe virtual memory would help even at the expense of speed.? Networking does require some level of multitasking as well so RT-11/FB is likely more useful than vanilla RT. Allison From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Apr 29 07:25:42 2019 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 05:25:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11? In-Reply-To: from ben via cctalk at "Apr 29, 19 01:20:17 am" Message-ID: <201904291225.x3TCPgVv25100428@floodgap.com> > >> Maybe it would be possible to get a text only browser running? > > > > I think Gopher would be a better fit, personally. That's easy to write, > > parse and display. > > > That might be true, but what sites still provide that service. Funny you should ask. gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/ -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- You can't fake the funk. -- Arnold X. Perkins ------------------------------ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 29 09:15:34 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 09:15:34 -0500 Subject: Greetings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 4:55 PM Ray Jewhurst via cctalk wrote: > I am new to the list and would like to introduce myself. I am a computer > history buff who especially likes DEC machines. Welcome. I started working with DEC machines for fun in 1982 and for money in 1984, so they have a dear place in my heart. > I see that Bitsavers has a copy of VMS 1.5 and wanted to > know if anyone got it working with the Vax 780 simulator? There was some discussion about that on the Simh mailing list a couple of years back. The difficulty is that Simh doesn't emulate the console media closely enough to use them to start the install and prior to VMS 2.0, the method (tools used, etc) was different. VAXen don't boot from tape like a PDP-11, so you have to have an install kit to match your console medium (RX01 for an 11/780, TU58 for 11/750, 11/730, 11/725, etc) From the discussion, it seems to be easiest to install a newer version of VMS (3.0 works, 2.0 does as well, I think) to unpack the VMS 1.5 files onto a blank disk, then boot that on an emulated 11/780 and finish the install. I myself haven't tried the process but the Simh mailing list archives describe the process in a way that someone with VMS experience can likely figure it out. I haven't encountered any step-by-step recipes. Where the Hobbyist License comes into play is with VMS 5.0 and newer - you'll need LMF license keys and the Hobbyist Program is a way to get free keys with a one-year expiration. -ethan From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Apr 29 09:18:30 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 10:18:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Modern Rack Rails in Classic Racks? Message-ID: <20190429141830.1646D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Zane Healy > How safe is it to put modern rack rails (HP) in a classic DEC Rack? May I ask why you're doing that? Are you trying to mount modern units in an old rack? If you're trying to mount old units (RK05's, BA11's, etc) in an old rack, I've been working on finding old slide-mounts; e.g. I know the thing to order for RK05's. Noel From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Mon Apr 29 09:43:43 2019 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 15:43:43 +0100 Subject: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11? In-Reply-To: <8DB673B5-7547-4C93-8DA6-C52A61566DA9@verizon.net> References: <8DB673B5-7547-4C93-8DA6-C52A61566DA9@verizon.net> Message-ID: <87h8ag50tc.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> There is a TCP/IP stack available for RT-11, although I've never tried it. It apparently works with both DEQNA and DELQA cards, and I suspect you've got one or the other in your 11/23. http://shop-pdp.net/rthtml/tcpip.php It is possible, but also very painful, to view websites using the telnet client "GET / HTTP/1.1" followed by two returns should give you a page. I think it's more fun to do the opposite. My PDP-11/73 (in a 11/23+ chassis) is accessible via the web, when it's powered up. http://catbert.rhwyd.co.uk https://web.archive.org/web/20190420150036/http://catbert.rhwyd.co.uk/ So there's plenty of room to have fun :) Aaron Richard Cini via cctalk writes: > All ? > > > > Over the last few months, I?ve built myself a nice little PDP-11/23 with a SCSI interface/drive, extra SLUs and Ethernet. With the help of a few people, I was able to get an Ethernet configuration running, which is kind of cool. It?s been a great learning process getting this up and running. It?s a Q18 system, so memory is limited and I don?t think able to run BSD (I?m running RT-11 right now). > > > > So, for playing around, what can I practically do with this? Is it even possible to access any Web sites (unconventional browsing for sure; I?ve read about telnetting to port 80)? I?m sure email is possible, as is FTP/Telnet (I?ve used that inside my lab setup), but I don?t really know where to start with that. > > > > If anyone has any pointers/suggestions, I?d appreciate it. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Rich -- Aaron Jackson - M6PIU Researcher at University of Nottingham http://aaronsplace.co.uk/ From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Mon Apr 29 09:43:43 2019 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 15:43:43 +0100 Subject: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11? In-Reply-To: <8DB673B5-7547-4C93-8DA6-C52A61566DA9@verizon.net> References: <8DB673B5-7547-4C93-8DA6-C52A61566DA9@verizon.net> Message-ID: <87h8ag50tc.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> There is a TCP/IP stack available for RT-11, although I've never tried it. It apparently works with both DEQNA and DELQA cards, and I suspect you've got one or the other in your 11/23. http://shop-pdp.net/rthtml/tcpip.php It is possible, but also very painful, to view websites using the telnet client "GET / HTTP/1.1" followed by two returns should give you a page. I think it's more fun to do the opposite. My PDP-11/73 (in a 11/23+ chassis) is accessible via the web, when it's powered up. http://catbert.rhwyd.co.uk https://web.archive.org/web/20190420150036/http://catbert.rhwyd.co.uk/ So there's plenty of room to have fun :) Aaron Richard Cini via cctalk writes: > All ? > > > > Over the last few months, I?ve built myself a nice little PDP-11/23 with a SCSI interface/drive, extra SLUs and Ethernet. With the help of a few people, I was able to get an Ethernet configuration running, which is kind of cool. It?s been a great learning process getting this up and running. It?s a Q18 system, so memory is limited and I don?t think able to run BSD (I?m running RT-11 right now). > > > > So, for playing around, what can I practically do with this? Is it even possible to access any Web sites (unconventional browsing for sure; I?ve read about telnetting to port 80)? I?m sure email is possible, as is FTP/Telnet (I?ve used that inside my lab setup), but I don?t really know where to start with that. > > > > If anyone has any pointers/suggestions, I?d appreciate it. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Rich -- Aaron Jackson - M6PIU Researcher at University of Nottingham http://aaronsplace.co.uk/ From pat at vax11.net Mon Apr 29 10:00:34 2019 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 11:00:34 -0400 Subject: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11? In-Reply-To: <8DB673B5-7547-4C93-8DA6-C52A61566DA9@verizon.net> References: <8DB673B5-7547-4C93-8DA6-C52A61566DA9@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 6:14 PM Richard Cini via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > So, for playing around, what can I practically do with this? Is it even > possible to access any Web sites (unconventional browsing for sure; I?ve > read about telnetting to port 80)? I?m sure email is possible, as is > FTP/Telnet (I?ve used that inside my lab setup), but I don?t really know > where to start with that. > > > > If anyone has any pointers/suggestions, I?d appreciate it. > So, having just gone through some of this with my TeleVideo stuff, my suggestion is to do a bit of work on both the client (PDP-11) and something a bit faster, which can handle encryption etc. I wrote a couple of simple web services and some Z80 code (obviously your PDP-11 code will be a bit different but with a similar concept), to parse the HTML on something using a web service (I used an apache CGI script to make it simple), and send the parsed results to the client. It's not interactive, but it seemed like the most elegant solution to the problem. If you want to see my code, check out "cgi/tvi-lynx.pl" and "almmmost/z80/LYNXGET.ZASM": https://github.com/vax11/almmmost Pat From pat at vax11.net Mon Apr 29 10:00:34 2019 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 11:00:34 -0400 Subject: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11? In-Reply-To: <8DB673B5-7547-4C93-8DA6-C52A61566DA9@verizon.net> References: <8DB673B5-7547-4C93-8DA6-C52A61566DA9@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 28, 2019 at 6:14 PM Richard Cini via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > So, for playing around, what can I practically do with this? Is it even > possible to access any Web sites (unconventional browsing for sure; I?ve > read about telnetting to port 80)? I?m sure email is possible, as is > FTP/Telnet (I?ve used that inside my lab setup), but I don?t really know > where to start with that. > > > > If anyone has any pointers/suggestions, I?d appreciate it. > So, having just gone through some of this with my TeleVideo stuff, my suggestion is to do a bit of work on both the client (PDP-11) and something a bit faster, which can handle encryption etc. I wrote a couple of simple web services and some Z80 code (obviously your PDP-11 code will be a bit different but with a similar concept), to parse the HTML on something using a web service (I used an apache CGI script to make it simple), and send the parsed results to the client. It's not interactive, but it seemed like the most elegant solution to the problem. If you want to see my code, check out "cgi/tvi-lynx.pl" and "almmmost/z80/LYNXGET.ZASM": https://github.com/vax11/almmmost Pat From rich.cini at verizon.net Mon Apr 29 10:38:51 2019 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 15:38:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11? In-Reply-To: <201904291225.x3TCPgVv25100428@floodgap.com> References: from ben via cctalk at "Apr 29, 19 01:20:17 am" <201904291225.x3TCPgVv25100428@floodgap.com> Message-ID: I?ll have to see if I have the Gopher client installed on my disk image. If not I?ll install it and see how it goes. Great idea! Rich Get Outlook for iOS On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 8:25 AM -0400, "Cameron Kaiser via cctalk" wrote: > >> Maybe it would be possible to get a text only browser running? > > > > I think Gopher would be a better fit, personally. That's easy to write, > > parse and display. > > > That might be true, but what sites still provide that service. Funny you should ask. gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/ -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- You can't fake the funk. -- Arnold X. Perkins ------------------------------ From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Apr 29 11:30:43 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 11:30:43 -0500 Subject: Nat Semi 16032 info discovered Message-ID: <5CC726B3.4040802@pico-systems.com> Back in 1984 I had cloned a Logical Microcomputer Co. Genix system based on the Nat. Semi. 16032 chip set. I had a dd dump of the distribution on floppies, but that was unreadable. I just found a binder with about an inch of fanfold printouts of all the device drivers, low-level system routines, boot loaders, etc in c source format. These were printed on my Honeywell "big iron" drum printer with a funny character set, so many of the ASCII 96 characters are printed using overprints. Like, { shows as a < overprinted with (. So, it might be tricky to scan and OCR it without training the OCR. Not sure anybody would be interested in it, anyway. Jon From allisonportable at gmail.com Mon Apr 29 06:47:10 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 07:47:10 -0400 Subject: Greetings In-Reply-To: <11961447-0d79-55c6-d1a1-e6373749fdd3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <67ff4fb5-7a62-0835-07a4-2cbe0626d565@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <11961447-0d79-55c6-d1a1-e6373749fdd3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 04/28/2019 09:28 PM, Grant Taylor via cctech wrote: > On 4/28/19 6:27 PM, Ray Jewhurst wrote: >> I already have a Hobbyist License.? I am just interested in >> experimenting with different OSes and different versions of OSes. > > ACK > > I don't know what VAX hardware VMS 1.5 supported, what VAX hardware > that Simh supports, or what the overlap is between the two. > > There's a reasonable chance that someone will chime in with experience. > > > You are limited to what the VAX-11/780 system had for peripherals and typically under 8MB ram (it maxed at 16mb). From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Apr 29 08:41:03 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 09:41:03 -0400 Subject: Greetings In-Reply-To: References: <67ff4fb5-7a62-0835-07a4-2cbe0626d565@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <11961447-0d79-55c6-d1a1-e6373749fdd3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <3E0ACF4C-F8F6-44D2-B97D-C6B526976B3B@comcast.net> > On Apr 29, 2019, at 7:47 AM, allison via cctech wrote: > > On 04/28/2019 09:28 PM, Grant Taylor via cctech wrote: >> On 4/28/19 6:27 PM, Ray Jewhurst wrote: >>> I already have a Hobbyist License. I am just interested in >>> experimenting with different OSes and different versions of OSes. >> >> ACK >> >> I don't know what VAX hardware VMS 1.5 supported, what VAX hardware >> that Simh supports, or what the overlap is between the two. >> >> There's a reasonable chance that someone will chime in with experience. >> > You are limited to what the VAX-11/780 system had for peripherals and > typically under 8MB ram (it maxed at 16mb). Does it support MSCP? If not, RP06 would certainly serve for your disks. paul From allisonportable at gmail.com Mon Apr 29 09:32:16 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 10:32:16 -0400 Subject: Greetings In-Reply-To: <3E0ACF4C-F8F6-44D2-B97D-C6B526976B3B@comcast.net> References: <67ff4fb5-7a62-0835-07a4-2cbe0626d565@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <11961447-0d79-55c6-d1a1-e6373749fdd3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <3E0ACF4C-F8F6-44D2-B97D-C6B526976B3B@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 04/29/2019 09:41 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Apr 29, 2019, at 7:47 AM, allison via cctech wrote: >> >> On 04/28/2019 09:28 PM, Grant Taylor via cctech wrote: >>> On 4/28/19 6:27 PM, Ray Jewhurst wrote: >>>> I already have a Hobbyist License. I am just interested in >>>> experimenting with different OSes and different versions of OSes. >>> ACK >>> >>> I don't know what VAX hardware VMS 1.5 supported, what VAX hardware >>> that Simh supports, or what the overlap is between the two. >>> >>> There's a reasonable chance that someone will chime in with experience. >>> >> You are limited to what the VAX-11/780 system had for peripherals and >> typically under 8MB ram (it maxed at 16mb). > Does it support MSCP? If not, RP06 would certainly serve for your disks. > > paul > I believe its pre MSCP.? V1.5 is pre 1981 if memory serves.? MSCP I think was introduced Qbus systems in the 80s just prior to the MicroVAX. VAX-11/78-- was introduced in '78 and the next generation was around 1980 with the 730 and 750 for the small systems and the 782 and 785 for the larger ones. From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Apr 29 10:37:11 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 10:37:11 -0500 Subject: Greetings In-Reply-To: References: <67ff4fb5-7a62-0835-07a4-2cbe0626d565@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <11961447-0d79-55c6-d1a1-e6373749fdd3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <5CC71A27.4040806@pico-systems.com> On 04/29/2019 06:47 AM, allison via cctech wrote: > On 04/28/2019 09:28 PM, Grant Taylor via cctech wrote: >> On 4/28/19 6:27 PM, Ray Jewhurst wrote: >>> I already have a Hobbyist License. I am just interested in >>> experimenting with different OSes and different versions of OSes. >> ACK >> >> I don't know what VAX hardware VMS 1.5 supported, what VAX hardware >> that Simh supports, or what the overlap is between the two. >> >> There's a reasonable chance that someone will chime in with experience. >> >> >> > You are limited to what the VAX-11/780 system had for peripherals and > typically under 8MB ram (it maxed at 16mb). Well, for command-line computing (well, this IS the classic computing list) you can do a lot. Our first 11/780 had half a megabyte of memory. Friday afternoon one memory board went bad, and I pulled it out. A user group ran a gigantic batch job of mechanical analysis over the weekend on 256 K! I was amazed, I really thought it would thrash itself to death on that. I ran a microVAX-II at home on one meg for years. But, I never experienced VMS before about version 3.4, I think. I'd really hate to run any VMS that didn't have loadable device drivers. Doing the brute force sysgens was so RSX-11 ish. I think VMS 1.5 still had a bunch of utilities running in PDP-11 emulation. Jon From allisonportable at gmail.com Mon Apr 29 11:45:26 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 12:45:26 -0400 Subject: Greetings In-Reply-To: <5CC71A27.4040806@pico-systems.com> References: <67ff4fb5-7a62-0835-07a4-2cbe0626d565@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <11961447-0d79-55c6-d1a1-e6373749fdd3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <5CC71A27.4040806@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <6d300725-7db5-4556-6c4d-5a07faf40930@gmail.com> On 04/29/2019 11:37 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 04/29/2019 06:47 AM, allison via cctech wrote: >> On 04/28/2019 09:28 PM, Grant Taylor via cctech wrote: >>> On 4/28/19 6:27 PM, Ray Jewhurst wrote: >>>> I already have a Hobbyist License.? I am just interested in >>>> experimenting with different OSes and different versions of OSes. >>> ACK >>> >>> I don't know what VAX hardware VMS 1.5 supported, what VAX hardware >>> that Simh supports, or what the overlap is between the two. >>> >>> There's a reasonable chance that someone will chime in with experience. >>> >>> >>> >> You are limited to what the VAX-11/780 system had for peripherals and >> typically under 8MB ram (it maxed at 16mb). > Well, for command-line computing (well, this IS the classic computing > list) you can do a lot. > Our first 11/780 had half a megabyte of memory.? Friday afternoon one > memory board went bad, and I pulled it out.? A user group ran a > gigantic batch job of mechanical analysis over the weekend on 256 K!? > I was amazed, I really thought it would thrash itself to death on that. > > I ran a microVAX-II at home on one meg for years. The typical environment during the DEC years '83-93 was a 780 with a 4-12mb and dozens of users or more. In 83 that meant 3.2 or later and much of the time was V3.8 or 3.9 till maybe 86ish then V4 and soon after V5. The years 83 and 84 I fondly remember V3.6 and later mostly 3.8 and often the best available machine was a PDP-11 [PRINCE] and [VIDEO] as the terminals and printers machines were running RSTS and phase II DECnet. Others of memory were MILRAT, REX, and ROYALT and later (1989) my own work box VIDSYS (uVAXII BA123]. If memory serves V4 was the last that ran in 1meg, V5 pushed that higher as a 4 meg system was more common then.? However the Qbus uVAX has a RD54[system] and RD52[swap] on separate MSCP controllers for performance as thats where they bottlenecked when heavy swapping. All my uVAXen have run from V4.4 [MicroVaxII/GPX] or later and my nominal version is 5.4.? Though I have a RZ56 with V7.2 on it.?? All are physical hardware in the Qbus BA123 realm and M3100 series.? > > But, I never experienced VMS before about version 3.4, I think.? I'd > really hate to run any VMS that didn't have loadable device drivers.? > Doing the brute force sysgens was so RSX-11 ish. > I think VMS 1.5 still had a bunch of utilities running in PDP-11 > emulation. > > Jon > Running anything before V3 is painful as it was a build.? Also V1 was tied the 780 and that did PDP11 emulation mode for a lot of stuff.? VMS changed a lot from 4.2 to 4.6, long file names are one that comes to mind as well as phase III and IV DECnet. That was a long time ago. Allsion From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Apr 29 11:53:21 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 16:53:21 +0000 Subject: Greetings In-Reply-To: <6d300725-7db5-4556-6c4d-5a07faf40930@gmail.com> References: <67ff4fb5-7a62-0835-07a4-2cbe0626d565@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <11961447-0d79-55c6-d1a1-e6373749fdd3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <5CC71A27.4040806@pico-systems.com> <6d300725-7db5-4556-6c4d-5a07faf40930@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 4/29/19 12:45 PM, allison via cctech wrote: > On 04/29/2019 11:37 AM, Jon Elson wrote: >> On 04/29/2019 06:47 AM, allison via cctech wrote: >>> On 04/28/2019 09:28 PM, Grant Taylor via cctech wrote: >>>> On 4/28/19 6:27 PM, Ray Jewhurst wrote: >>>>> I already have a Hobbyist License.? I am just interested in >>>>> experimenting with different OSes and different versions of OSes. >>>> ACK >>>> >>>> I don't know what VAX hardware VMS 1.5 supported, what VAX hardware >>>> that Simh supports, or what the overlap is between the two. >>>> >>>> There's a reasonable chance that someone will chime in with experience. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> You are limited to what the VAX-11/780 system had for peripherals and >>> typically under 8MB ram (it maxed at 16mb). >> Well, for command-line computing (well, this IS the classic computing >> list) you can do a lot. >> Our first 11/780 had half a megabyte of memory.? Friday afternoon one >> memory board went bad, and I pulled it out.? A user group ran a >> gigantic batch job of mechanical analysis over the weekend on 256 K! >> I was amazed, I really thought it would thrash itself to death on that. >> >> I ran a microVAX-II at home on one meg for years. > > The typical environment during the DEC years '83-93 was a 780 with a > 4-12mb and dozens of users or more. Unless someone tried to run Ada, then it became a single user system. :-) bill From classiccmp at crash.com Mon Apr 29 12:07:44 2019 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 10:07:44 -0700 Subject: Nat Semi 16032 info discovered In-Reply-To: <5CC726B3.4040802@pico-systems.com> References: <5CC726B3.4040802@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 04/29/2019 09:30, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > I just found a binder with about an inch of fanfold printouts of all the > device drivers, low-level system routines, boot loaders, etc in c source > format. > > So, it might be tricky to scan and OCR it without training the OCR. Not > sure anybody would be interested in it, anyway. Well, I have an abiding interest in the Nat Semi 32k series. I'm not connected to it, but the website http://cpu-ns32k.net seems to indicate there are others. So I'd say the code is worth trying to preserve, as I don't know how much source code of any kind related to Genix and the systems it ran on might still be out there... --S. PS - If anybody's got ns32k hardware, I'm interested... ;) From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Mon Apr 29 12:11:15 2019 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 12:11:15 -0500 Subject: Excessive amount of time in interrupt stack mode Message-ID: <7917d8d9-ec1f-2e6d-fe11-79ddf76889de@gmail.com> Dear ccmp'ers: For a while now, I noticed that my vaxstation 4000/60 with OpenVMS 7.2 had become sluggish, but I had not had the time to investigate the problem.?? The system is mostly idle, RAM is mostly free (there's 32mb), there is almost no paging, but the CPU is spending upwards of 70% of the time in the interrupt stack mode.? Currently, I am running it headless because I have not had the time to fix the monitor (it still has the framebuffer inside, but this sluggishness issue was present before with the monitor attached).? I have read that this can be caused by "faulty i/o devices that interrupt the cpu continuously".? What else can be done to locate the source of the problem? Regards, Carlos. From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon Apr 29 12:19:12 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 10:19:12 -0700 Subject: Modern Rack Rails in Classic Racks? In-Reply-To: <20190429141830.1646D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190429141830.1646D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Apr 29, 2019, at 7:18 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Zane Healy > >> How safe is it to put modern rack rails (HP) in a classic DEC Rack? > > May I ask why you're doing that? Are you trying to mount modern units > in an old rack? > > If you're trying to mount old units (RK05's, BA11's, etc) in an old rack, > I've been working on finding old slide-mounts; e.g. I know the thing > to order for RK05's. > > Noel I think part of the answer is that I'm going in circles. :-) I have 4 DEC Racks, but all four are full, and since the initial post, I?ve concluded they?re off-limits. I don?t have any RK05?s, and the RL01?s and RL02?s will stay in DEC Racks, as will the majority of the DEC HW. The primary objective is to mount a DL380G7 and a 1GigE switch. I also have some desktops that I?d ideally like in the rack, and maybe a MicroVAX III and PDP-11 or two (those are if I go the route of a real rack). Earlier in this thread, I?d pretty much convinced myself to use a wooden rack that I have several of. Then I remembered why I moved from those to Gorilla Racks. The wooden racks are pretty unstable. I?ve found good deals on a variety of modern racks at a local place. I?m now strongly leaning towards this option. My next question is, what options are there for putting a shelf in a standard rack? My google-fu seems to be failing me. I?ve I?m going to put any desktops in the rack, I?ll need a shelf or two, at a minimum. Zane From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Apr 29 12:24:30 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 13:24:30 -0400 Subject: Modern Rack Rails in Classic Racks? In-Reply-To: References: <20190429141830.1646D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Apr 29, 2019, at 1:19 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > ... > My next question is, what options are there for putting a shelf in a standard rack? My google-fu seems to be failing me. I?ve I?m going to put any desktops in the rack, I?ll need a shelf or two, at a minimum. I don't have any myself, but I've seen plenty of rack mounted shelves in the racks at the office. Those are modern racks, but I'd assume they come in a range of sizes. I could use some for putting oscilloscopes etc. in my H960. paul From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Apr 29 12:45:59 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 12:45:59 -0500 Subject: Nat Semi 16032 info discovered In-Reply-To: References: <5CC726B3.4040802@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5CC73857.8080309@pico-systems.com> On 04/29/2019 12:07 PM, Steven M Jones via cctalk wrote: > > > PS - If anybody's got ns32k hardware, I'm interested... ;) > I have a complete, wire-wrapped clone of the Logical Microcomputer Co. 16032 system, except for memory and the MFM disk. So, that's the CPU on Multibus-I, a Taisho disk controller, and a board with 5 2561 (I think) UARTs for serial comms. I ran it for about 18 months, I think, until I had the incredible fortune to be able to buy a microVAX-II. The 16032 with Multibus memory and MMU turned on was just glacially slow. It took several minutes for emacs to load, I'm not exaggerating. Maybe I didn't have enough memory on it, and of course an MFM disk is kind of slow, too. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Apr 29 12:47:01 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 12:47:01 -0500 Subject: Excessive amount of time in interrupt stack mode In-Reply-To: <7917d8d9-ec1f-2e6d-fe11-79ddf76889de@gmail.com> References: <7917d8d9-ec1f-2e6d-fe11-79ddf76889de@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5CC73895.1020506@pico-systems.com> On 04/29/2019 12:11 PM, Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk wrote: > > Dear ccmp'ers: > > For a while now, I noticed that my vaxstation 4000/60 with > OpenVMS 7.2 had become sluggish, but I had not had the > time to investigate the problem. The system is mostly > idle, RAM is mostly free (there's 32mb), there is almost > no paging, but the CPU is spending upwards of 70% of the > time in the interrupt stack mode. Currently, I am running > it headless because I have not had the time to fix the > monitor (it still has the framebuffer inside, but this > sluggishness issue was present before with the monitor > attached). I have read that this can be caused by "faulty > i/o devices that interrupt the cpu continuously". What > else can be done to locate the source of the problem? Check for disk fragmentation? Jon From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 29 13:03:55 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 11:03:55 -0700 Subject: Nat Semi 16032 info discovered In-Reply-To: References: <5CC726B3.4040802@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <1809c15f-e4f0-04dd-6a0d-9af877bdd6b8@sydex.com> On 4/29/19 10:07 AM, Steven M Jones via cctalk wrote: > PS - If anybody's got ns32k hardware, I'm interested... ;) Dig into some old laser printers. I had a Panasonic that used the 32016 with graphics enhancements. But then, I suspect that you're more interested in computers than printers... --Chuck From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Apr 29 13:16:05 2019 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 14:16:05 -0400 Subject: Excessive amount of time in interrupt stack mode In-Reply-To: <7917d8d9-ec1f-2e6d-fe11-79ddf76889de@gmail.com> References: <7917d8d9-ec1f-2e6d-fe11-79ddf76889de@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52568675-5e02-d653-ca50-950a7554dc6b@e-bbes.com> On 2019-04-29 13:11, Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk wrote: > > Dear ccmp'ers: > > For a while now, I noticed that my vaxstation 4000/60 with OpenVMS 7.2 > had become sluggish, but I had not had the time to investigate the > problem.?? The system is mostly idle, RAM is mostly free (there's 32mb), > there is almost no paging, but the CPU is spending upwards of 70% of the > time in the interrupt stack mode.? Currently, I am running it headless > because I have not had the time to fix the monitor (it still has the > framebuffer inside, but this sluggishness issue was present before with > the monitor attached).? I have read that this can be caused by "faulty > i/o devices that interrupt the cpu continuously".? What else can be done > to locate the source of the problem? SHOW DEV? doesn't show anything weird? From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 29 14:23:20 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 12:23:20 -0700 Subject: Nat Semi 16032 info discovered In-Reply-To: <5CC726B3.4040802@pico-systems.com> References: <5CC726B3.4040802@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <3e883228-0c1a-4afe-4827-201aa6deb37a@bitsavers.org> On 4/29/19 9:30 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > Back in 1984 I had cloned a Logical Microcomputer Co. Genix system based on the Nat. Semi. 16032 chip set.? I had a dd > dump of the distribution on floppies, but that was unreadable. > I just found a binder with about an inch of fanfold printouts of all the device drivers, low-level system routines, boot > loaders, etc in c source format. > > These were printed on my Honeywell "big iron" drum printer with a funny character set, so many of the ASCII 96 > characters are printed using overprints.? Like, { shows as a < overprinted with (. > So, it might be tricky to scan and OCR it without training the OCR. Not sure anybody would be interested in it, anyway. > > Jon I have an image of the Genix source tape. Will try to dig it up. From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Mon Apr 29 14:25:07 2019 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 21:25:07 +0200 Subject: Unknown 1970 Tapedrive Message-ID: Was given a tapedrive in rather bad condition, but it has no manufacturers name on it. Pics on ftp://ftp.dreesen.ch/Tapedrive Anyone recognizes this ? The paddle PCB says "paddle board, 7/9 level tape handler." Not even sure if it is a computer tape drive or an instrument / data logger... Yours if you pick it up ( and be prepared to spend quit some time to clean this one up. Unit has seen more this its share of water over the years) Location : CH Jos From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon Apr 29 14:37:15 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 12:37:15 -0700 Subject: Modern Rack Rails in Classic Racks? In-Reply-To: References: <20190429141830.1646D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Apr 29, 2019, at 10:24 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Apr 29, 2019, at 1:19 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> >> ... >> My next question is, what options are there for putting a shelf in a standard rack? My google-fu seems to be failing me. I?ve I?m going to put any desktops in the rack, I?ll need a shelf or two, at a minimum. > > I don't have any myself, but I've seen plenty of rack mounted shelves in the racks at the office. Those are modern racks, but I'd assume they come in a range of sizes. I could use some for putting oscilloscopes etc. in my H960. > > paul I finally figured out how to pull up shelves on eBay. Looks like outfitting a rack with shelves will likely cost more than the rack itself, but give me solution that will make it perfect for me. Zane From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 29 14:42:19 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 12:42:19 -0700 Subject: Unknown 1970 Tapedrive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7efc3ebd-4725-8f26-e533-ed3aac33c2df@sydex.com> On 4/29/19 12:25 PM, jos via cctalk wrote: > Was given a tapedrive in rather bad condition, but it has no > manufacturers name on it. > > Pics? on ftp://ftp.dreesen.ch/Tapedrive > > > Anyone recognizes this ? The paddle PCB says "paddle board, 7/9 level > tape handler." > > Not even sure if it is a computer tape drive or an instrument? / data > logger... What's the date on the paddle board? Could almost be a key-to-tape drive. --Chuck From jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch Mon Apr 29 14:56:34 2019 From: jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 21:56:34 +0200 Subject: Unknown 1970 Tapedrive In-Reply-To: <7efc3ebd-4725-8f26-e533-ed3aac33c2df@sydex.com> References: <7efc3ebd-4725-8f26-e533-ed3aac33c2df@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1d3e54b0-4752-4ecb-506e-50eb3f36eac2@bluewin.ch> > > What's the date on the paddle board? > > Could almost be a key-to-tape drive. > > --Chuck > 1970, also all TTL is dated 1969 or 1970. Jos From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 29 15:28:48 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 13:28:48 -0700 Subject: Unknown 1970 Tapedrive In-Reply-To: <1d3e54b0-4752-4ecb-506e-50eb3f36eac2@bluewin.ch> References: <7efc3ebd-4725-8f26-e533-ed3aac33c2df@sydex.com> <1d3e54b0-4752-4ecb-506e-50eb3f36eac2@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <856e4f85-fa15-92e1-9a58-5dc17539d01d@sydex.com> On 4/29/19 12:56 PM, Jos Dreesen via cctalk wrote: > > 1970, also all TTL is dated 1969 or 1970. > > Jos That would fit right in with a key-tape scheme. Can you tell if the capstan motor is a stepper? --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 29 15:41:56 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 13:41:56 -0700 Subject: Unknown 1970 Tapedrive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5d30989b-87d2-27f2-42b6-19e37a90bcdb@bitsavers.org> On 4/29/19 12:25 PM, jos via cctalk wrote: > Anyone recognizes this ? have never seen anything like it, but given the labels are in english but there are european electrolytics, I'm guessing it was made in the UK From imp at bsdimp.com Mon Apr 29 15:52:12 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 14:52:12 -0600 Subject: Modern Rack Rails in Classic Racks? In-Reply-To: References: <20190429141830.1646D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 1:37 PM Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > > On Apr 29, 2019, at 10:24 AM, Paul Koning > wrote: > > > >> On Apr 29, 2019, at 1:19 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >> ... > >> My next question is, what options are there for putting a shelf in a > standard rack? My google-fu seems to be failing me. I?ve I?m going to put > any desktops in the rack, I?ll need a shelf or two, at a minimum. > > > > I don't have any myself, but I've seen plenty of rack mounted shelves in > the racks at the office. Those are modern racks, but I'd assume they come > in a range of sizes. I could use some for putting oscilloscopes etc. in my > H960. > > > > paul > > I finally figured out how to pull up shelves on eBay. Looks like > outfitting a rack with shelves will likely cost more than the rack itself, > but give me solution that will make it perfect for me. > While it might not be useful for all applications, I've gone down to the hardware store and purchased "angle iron" and cut it to length. I then drill a whole through it in a couple of places and bolt it to the rack. It's not as nice as sliders, but it gets the job done for all the systems I've used in the past couple of decades. It wouldn't work well, however, for systems that have big heavy disk drives, for tape drives, etc. It also burns 1 U in the rack. For me that's not been an issue but others have complained about that in the past when I've suggested this. Warner From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon Apr 29 18:05:15 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 16:05:15 -0700 Subject: Modern Rack Rails in Classic Racks? In-Reply-To: References: <20190429141830.1646D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <62C00D1D-3018-499E-93A8-6EE3D7878923@avanthar.com> > On Apr 29, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > While it might not be useful for all applications, I've gone down to the hardware store and purchased "angle iron" and cut it to length. I then drill a whole through it in a couple of places and bolt it to the rack. It's not as nice as sliders, but it gets the job done for all the systems I've used in the past couple of decades. It wouldn't work well, however, for systems that have big heavy disk drives, for tape drives, etc. It also burns 1 U in the rack. For me that's not been an issue but others have complained about that in the past when I've suggested this. > > Warner I figure that loosing 1U will be less of a concern than the insulating effects of putting a sheet of wood in there. I?m giving real consideration to jury rigging something. I?ll pick up the rack and then go from there. Zane From imp at bsdimp.com Mon Apr 29 18:10:43 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 17:10:43 -0600 Subject: Modern Rack Rails in Classic Racks? In-Reply-To: <62C00D1D-3018-499E-93A8-6EE3D7878923@avanthar.com> References: <20190429141830.1646D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <62C00D1D-3018-499E-93A8-6EE3D7878923@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 5:05 PM Zane Healy wrote: > > On Apr 29, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > While it might not be useful for all applications, I've gone down to the > hardware store and purchased "angle iron" and cut it to length. I then > drill a whole through it in a couple of places and bolt it to the rack. > It's not as nice as sliders, but it gets the job done for all the systems > I've used in the past couple of decades. It wouldn't work well, however, > for systems that have big heavy disk drives, for tape drives, etc. It also > burns 1 U in the rack. For me that's not been an issue but others have > complained about that in the past when I've suggested this. > > Warner > > > I figure that loosing 1U will be less of a concern than the insulating > effects of putting a sheet of wood in there. I?m giving real consideration > to jury rigging something. > > I?ll pick up the rack and then go from there. > I put wood there too :) But only when the chassis is venting front to back (or back to front) as opposed to top to bottom... Though it's been a long time since I've seen top to bottom... Warner From alan at alanlee.org Mon Apr 29 19:10:31 2019 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 20:10:31 -0400 Subject: Nat Semi 16032 info discovered In-Reply-To: References: <5CC726B3.4040802@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <518541e2ec103ee28b11179c8ea2ff60@alanlee.org> While this isn't specific to 16032, it is somewhat related. A year and a half ago, someone found the Gerber files for Scolaro's PC532 Baby AT motherboard. I back-annotated them into Eagle (I don't use KiCad) where they could be edited. The ground fill from the Gerbers was replaced with ground pours from Eagle. And there are very minor clean-ups to the board art work. I used my own judgement in what was in-spirit with the original design. The schematic drawing is entirely new. While it does not match the style of the original, it is electrically correct and fully forward/back annotates to the PCB artwork. I just moved it from my private repo to my public facing one here: https://www.retrotronics.org/svn/ns32k/pc532/ Hopefully someone else can also make use of it. -Alan PS. I recently discovered pcbcart.com does reasonably priced 6-layer boards if anyone wants to do reproductions of it. On 2019-04-29 13:07, Steven M Jones via cctalk wrote: > Well, I have an abiding interest in the Nat Semi 32k series. I'm not > connected to it, but the website http://cpu-ns32k.net seems to > indicate there are others. From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon Apr 29 19:20:17 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 17:20:17 -0700 Subject: Modern Rack Rails in Classic Racks? In-Reply-To: References: <20190429141830.1646D18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <62C00D1D-3018-499E-93A8-6EE3D7878923@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <45E64886-E755-4401-8226-02B01D1FEE7A@avanthar.com> > On Apr 29, 2019, at 4:10 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 5:05 PM Zane Healy > wrote: > >> On Apr 29, 2019, at 1:52 PM, Warner Losh > wrote: >> >> While it might not be useful for all applications, I've gone down to the hardware store and purchased "angle iron" and cut it to length. I then drill a whole through it in a couple of places and bolt it to the rack. It's not as nice as sliders, but it gets the job done for all the systems I've used in the past couple of decades. It wouldn't work well, however, for systems that have big heavy disk drives, for tape drives, etc. It also burns 1 U in the rack. For me that's not been an issue but others have complained about that in the past when I've suggested this. >> >> Warner > > I figure that loosing 1U will be less of a concern than the insulating effects of putting a sheet of wood in there. I?m giving real consideration to jury rigging something. > > I?ll pick up the rack and then go from there. > > I put wood there too :) But only when the chassis is venting front to back (or back to front) as opposed to top to bottom... Though it's been a long time since I've seen top to bottom? This will be going into my Garage, so cooling will be a challenge during the summer. OTOH, it?s really nice to be able to log in via ILO and check the system temperatures. My plan is to keep the 24x7 servers as low to the ground as possible. Stuff that gets powered of ?when needed?, can go higher up in the rack. The one exception will be if I put the MicroVAX III with RA7x drives into the rack, like I?m threatening to. Those would probably be forced to go in the bottom. Zane From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Apr 29 19:29:20 2019 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 17:29:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11? In-Reply-To: from Richard Cini at "Apr 29, 19 03:38:51 pm" Message-ID: <201904300029.x3U0TKX726345586@floodgap.com> > I'll have to see if I have the Gopher client installed on my disk image. > If not I'll install it and see how it goes. Great idea! The nice thing about Gopher is that even if you don't, the protocol is so trivial to speak and parse menus that you could probably bang a simple client out in an afternoon or less. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs. -- Bruce Johnson -------- From rich.cini at verizon.net Mon Apr 29 19:37:48 2019 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 20:37:48 -0400 Subject: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11? In-Reply-To: <201904300029.x3U0TKX726345586@floodgap.com> References: <201904300029.x3U0TKX726345586@floodgap.com> Message-ID: Ok, that's good to know. Thanks. ?On 4/29/19, 8:29 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Cameron Kaiser via cctalk" wrote: > I'll have to see if I have the Gopher client installed on my disk image. > If not I'll install it and see how it goes. Great idea! The nice thing about Gopher is that even if you don't, the protocol is so trivial to speak and parse menus that you could probably bang a simple client out in an afternoon or less. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs. -- Bruce Johnson -------- From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Apr 29 19:40:55 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 20:40:55 -0400 Subject: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11? In-Reply-To: <201904300029.x3U0TKX726345586@floodgap.com> References: <201904300029.x3U0TKX726345586@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <60954F41-1AC0-4099-B02B-F75493178895@comcast.net> I've been thinking it would be neat (strange?) to have HTTP client/server running over DECnet instead of TCP. Object number would be 80, of course. On Ultrix it seems this should be quite easy, given that it has "stream mode" DECnet sockets that act very much like TCP streams. paul From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon Apr 29 19:47:38 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 17:47:38 -0700 Subject: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11? In-Reply-To: <60954F41-1AC0-4099-B02B-F75493178895@comcast.net> References: <201904300029.x3U0TKX726345586@floodgap.com> <60954F41-1AC0-4099-B02B-F75493178895@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6CFC999F-D8FE-420D-8E24-4FC837F64668@avanthar.com> > On Apr 29, 2019, at 5:40 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > I've been thinking it would be neat (strange?) to have HTTP client/server running over DECnet instead of TCP. Object number would be 80, of course. > > On Ultrix it seems this should be quite easy, given that it has "stream mode" DECnet sockets that act very much like TCP streams. I want to say that the OSU webserver for VMS supports running over DECnet, but my memory could be faulty. I?ve only used WASD on VMS. Zane From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Apr 29 20:05:46 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 19:05:46 -0600 Subject: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11? In-Reply-To: <6CFC999F-D8FE-420D-8E24-4FC837F64668@avanthar.com> References: <201904300029.x3U0TKX726345586@floodgap.com> <60954F41-1AC0-4099-B02B-F75493178895@comcast.net> <6CFC999F-D8FE-420D-8E24-4FC837F64668@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On 4/29/19 6:47 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > I want to say that the OSU webserver for VMS supports running over > DECnet, but my memory could be faulty. I?ve only used WASD on VMS. I think this sounds like a neat ~> fun thing to do. But how does a web server run over DECnet? I guess conceptually you can serve web pages across any protocol that can carry HTTP. But I guess you could also have a client that ran over DECnet or need a gateway to TCP/IP. #confused #eagerToLearn -- Grant. . . . unix || die From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 29 20:27:59 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 18:27:59 -0700 Subject: Q Bus front panel Message-ID: <0ae45f9e-2a4f-3262-73e6-180c06f14e47@bitsavers.org> I thought about it.. but.. https://www.ebay.com/itm/133019966845 From systems.glitch at gmail.com Mon Apr 29 21:13:44 2019 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 22:13:44 -0400 Subject: Sun SS2 SBus memory expansion parts In-Reply-To: References: <88D2F4B0-9E3D-4176-8576-3A07AC892B4E@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: You can make the cable out of a section of ribbon cable and DuPont/FCI/whoever-owns-it-now Mini-Latch PV connector housings, I made that up for one of my SS2s. Note that it'll interfere with the top closing on a SPARCstation IPX, if you put the board in the slot closest to the memory expansion socket. I believe the real Sun cable did, too. I've got one of the 32MB mezzanine boards, I've thought about reproducing it as it seems to be just RAM chips, no special ICs. There would be a significant cost in having it (destructively) scanned and the original would be gone. Thanks, Jonathan On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 10:42 PM Chris Hanson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Apr 25, 2019, at 7:39 PM, Chris Hanson via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > I have the 32MB memory expansion card for my SPARCstation 2 (P/N > 501-1823) but not the accompanying cable (501-1814) or 32MB mezzanine card > (501-1824). > > Of course I meant 530-1814 as the Sun part number for the cable. > > We deeply regret such grievous inaccuracy. > > -- Chris > > > From systems.glitch at gmail.com Mon Apr 29 21:19:22 2019 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 22:19:22 -0400 Subject: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11? In-Reply-To: References: <201904300029.x3U0TKX726345586@floodgap.com> <60954F41-1AC0-4099-B02B-F75493178895@comcast.net> <6CFC999F-D8FE-420D-8E24-4FC837F64668@avanthar.com> Message-ID: If you get 2.11BSD up and going (which would require a CPU upgrade, it won't run on the F11, needs split I+D), you can run a *native* IRC client! One of the guys on #vc has written a minimalist IRC client that compiles and runs on 2.11BSD on the PDP-11. AFAIK, there was no TCP/IP stack for the BSDs that will run on the F11. Anyone know of one? Thanks, Jonathan On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 9:05 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 4/29/19 6:47 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > I want to say that the OSU webserver for VMS supports running over > > DECnet, but my memory could be faulty. I?ve only used WASD on VMS. > > I think this sounds like a neat ~> fun thing to do. > > But how does a web server run over DECnet? > > I guess conceptually you can serve web pages across any protocol that > can carry HTTP. > > But I guess you could also have a client that ran over DECnet or need a > gateway to TCP/IP. > > #confused #eagerToLearn > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Apr 29 22:18:23 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 22:18:23 -0500 Subject: Nat Semi 16032 info discovered In-Reply-To: <3e883228-0c1a-4afe-4827-201aa6deb37a@bitsavers.org> References: <5CC726B3.4040802@pico-systems.com> <3e883228-0c1a-4afe-4827-201aa6deb37a@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5CC7BE7F.3040704@pico-systems.com> On 04/29/2019 02:23 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 4/29/19 9:30 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >> Back in 1984 I had cloned a Logical Microcomputer Co. Genix system based on the Nat. Semi. 16032 chip set. I had a dd >> dump of the distribution on floppies, but that was unreadable. >> I just found a binder with about an inch of fanfold printouts of all the device drivers, low-level system routines, boot >> loaders, etc in c source format. >> >> These were printed on my Honeywell "big iron" drum printer with a funny character set, so many of the ASCII 96 >> characters are printed using overprints. Like, { shows as a < overprinted with (. >> So, it might be tricky to scan and OCR it without training the OCR. Not sure anybody would be interested in it, anyway. >> >> Jon > I have an image of the Genix source tape. > Will try to dig it up. > > Oh, OK, then maybe there's no need to scan this stuff. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Apr 29 22:22:24 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 22:22:24 -0500 Subject: Unknown 1970 Tapedrive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5CC7BF70.5010605@pico-systems.com> On 04/29/2019 02:25 PM, jos via cctalk wrote: > Was given a tapedrive in rather bad condition, but it has > no manufacturers name on it. > > Pics on ftp://ftp.dreesen.ch/Tapedrive > > > Anyone recognizes this ? The paddle PCB says "paddle > board, 7/9 level tape handler." > > Not even sure if it is a computer tape drive or an > instrument / data logger... > > I'm pretty sure it is a digital/computer drive. It really looks military to me. Possibly from some test gear. Jon From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 29 21:55:36 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 22:55:36 -0400 Subject: Greetings In-Reply-To: <6d300725-7db5-4556-6c4d-5a07faf40930@gmail.com> References: <67ff4fb5-7a62-0835-07a4-2cbe0626d565@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <11961447-0d79-55c6-d1a1-e6373749fdd3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <5CC71A27.4040806@pico-systems.com> <6d300725-7db5-4556-6c4d-5a07faf40930@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 12:44 PM allison via cctech wrote: > On 04/29/2019 11:37 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > > On 04/29/2019 06:47 AM, allison via cctech wrote: > >> On 04/28/2019 09:28 PM, Grant Taylor via cctech wrote: > >>> On 4/28/19 6:27 PM, Ray Jewhurst wrote: > >>>> I already have a Hobbyist License. I am just interested in > >>>> experimenting with different OSes and different versions of OSes. > >>> ACK > >>> > >>> I don't know what VAX hardware VMS 1.5 supported, what VAX hardware > >>> that Simh supports, or what the overlap is between the two. > >>> > >> You are limited to what the VAX-11/780 system had for peripherals and > >> typically under 8MB ram (it maxed at 16mb). > > The typical environment during the DEC years '83-93 was a 780 with a > 4-12mb and dozens of users or more. We (by that I mean Software Results) had an 11/750 that started out with 512K of RAM and quickly upgraded to 2MB. I later bumped it up to 8MB (adding the backplane wire and replacing the memory controller) and we ran 40+ users on it. > In 83 that meant 3.2 or later and much of the time was V3.8 or 3.9 till > maybe 86ish then V4 and soon after V5. I first encountered VMS in late 1984. I started off a just a user, so I don't recall the version, but ISTR we upgraded to either V3.4 or V3.6. We stayed there for a while, but the MicroVAX I we got was upgraded from, MicroVMS 1.0 to MicroVMS 4.0 as fast as that came out. Eventually we did the upgrade path to 4.0 and beyond, pausing at 4.6 on that machine in part because we had a SI9900 controller (you had to patch DRDRIVER.EXE to use all the cylinders of a Fuji Eagle) and in part because we had customers who were still on V4.X. I put V5.something on an 11/730 and we used that box to link our product for newer versions of VMS (after 1988). When we shut everything down in 1993, we were still running VMS 4.6 on that 11/750 and never needed to upgrade it past 8MB. It did have about 1GB on 4 spindles and 2 controllers. > The years 83 and 84 I fondly remember V3.6 and later mostly V3.8... I definitely remember V3.6 but I don't think we were on V3.8 for very long before moving to V4.0. > If memory serves V4 was the last that ran in 1meg, V5 pushed that higher > as a 4 meg system was more common then. I don't think I ever tried to run V4 in under 4MB (even our MicroVAX I was maxxed out). Or MicroVAX II had 9MB (and I think we had that one on V5.4 for a while before moving to V5.5-1). I think our VAX 8200 was on V5.4 for product development (COMBOARD for VAXBI) and it had no less than 8MB (the total amount varied by how many slots we had to free up by removing 2MB boards. > However the Qbus uVAX has a RD54[system] and RD52[swap] on > separate MSCP controllers > for performance as thats where they bottlenecked when heavy swapping. That sounds like fun - we never had enough hardware to pull that off. > All my uVAXen have run from V4.4 [MicroVaxII/GPX] or later and my > nominal version is 5.4. Though I have a > RZ56 with V7.2 on it. All are physical hardware in the Qbus BA123 > realm and M3100 series. Cool. I've powered up the MicroVAX II in recent memory, and the VAX 8200 but I haven't fired up the 11/750 since the company folded. > Running anything before V3 is painful as it was a build. Also V1 was > tied the 780 and that did PDP11 emulation > mode for a lot of stuff. Like I said, I started with V3.x so I missed out on the "joy". > VMS changed a lot from 4.2 to 4.6, long file > names are one that comes to mind as well as > phase III and IV DECnet. Yep. Lots of changes, most of them improvements. > That was a long time ago. It sure was. -ethan From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Mon Apr 29 23:27:23 2019 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 21:27:23 -0700 Subject: Newest Batch of Items from Sellam's VWoCW Just Posted Message-ID: Good Monday Evening (or Tuesday Morning if you are beyond the International Dateline)! Here is the latest batch of computers and boards and peripherals and things that I've carefully curated for your consideration and consumption from my collection: Homebrew Small Form Factor S-100 System Indus GT 5.25" Floppy Drive (Atari) ADPI Easi-Disk 5.25" External Serial Disk Drive Camwil Printwheel - Pica 10 Camwil Printwheel - Elite 12 Diablo Black Cloth Ribbon Diablo HiType-I FIlm Ribbon (6 pack) GP Technologies Printwheel - Titan Legal 10 Xerox Metal Printwheel - Titan Legal 10 Xerox Metal Printwheel - Vintage 12 Toshiba T1950CT Laptop Toshiba T4900CT Laptop Commodore 1311 Joystick (boxed) Microsoft InPort Mouse w/Mouse Interface Articulate Systems Voice Impact Pro Dysan 100 MD2HD 5.25" Floppy Diskettes (10-pack) Curtis Electro Devices PR5200B 32x8 Memory Programmer Asante FriendlyNet Adapter Perkin-Elmer PC AT Single T4 4 Meg Transputer CompuPro CPU 8085/88 CompuPro CPU 8085/88 (incomplete) CompuPro RAM16 CompuPro RAM21 Comrex The S100 TimePiece JVB Electronics Spool-Z-Q 100 MATCO Data Products EPROM Emulator/Programmer Morrow Designs MM256K CompuPro/Viasyn SPUZ 64K Viasyn Interfacer 3A (bare board) Viasyn Interfacer 4 (bare board) Atari XG-1 Light Gun Atari XE Keyboard IBM PCjr Internal Modem IBM PCjr RF Modulator MOS Technology KIM-1 (Rev. A) Commodore KIM-1 (Rev. G) Radio Shack TRS-80 64K Color Computer DEC Celebris FP 590 PC Links to information on these items and more can be found here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit?pli=1#gid=949372371&range=A1 Photos are linked in the descriptions. I will be going back and adding photos for the last couple batches in the near future and will post an update when they are up. As ever, please contact me directly by e-mail via to inquire or make an offer on a particular item. Thank you! Sellam From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Apr 30 06:22:38 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 11:22:38 +0000 Subject: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11? In-Reply-To: References: <201904300029.x3U0TKX726345586@floodgap.com> <60954F41-1AC0-4099-B02B-F75493178895@comcast.net> <6CFC999F-D8FE-420D-8E24-4FC837F64668@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On 4/29/19 10:19 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > If you get 2.11BSD up and going (which would require a CPU upgrade, it > won't run on the F11, needs split I+D), you can run a *native* IRC client! > One of the guys on #vc has written a minimalist IRC client that compiles > and runs on 2.11BSD on the PDP-11. > > AFAIK, there was no TCP/IP stack for the BSDs that will run on the F11. > Anyone know of one? What about Ultrix-11? I know it supports the 11/23 and it has TCP/IP. Whether it has both simultaneously I don't remember. bill From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 07:50:36 2019 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 07:50:36 -0500 Subject: Excessive amount of time in interrupt stack mode In-Reply-To: <52568675-5e02-d653-ca50-950a7554dc6b@e-bbes.com> References: <7917d8d9-ec1f-2e6d-fe11-79ddf76889de@gmail.com> <52568675-5e02-d653-ca50-950a7554dc6b@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <37647775-e8a3-5852-c96a-8c0002e4e7ae@gmail.com> emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > On 2019-04-29 13:11, Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk wrote: >> Dear ccmp'ers: >> >> For a while now, I noticed that my vaxstation 4000/60 with OpenVMS 7.2 >> had become sluggish, but I had not had the time to investigate the >> problem.?? The system is mostly idle, RAM is mostly free (there's 32mb), >> there is almost no paging, but the CPU is spending upwards of 70% of the >> time in the interrupt stack mode.? Currently, I am running it headless >> because I have not had the time to fix the monitor (it still has the >> framebuffer inside, but this sluggishness issue was present before with >> the monitor attached).? I have read that this can be caused by "faulty >> i/o devices that interrupt the cpu continuously".? What else can be done >> to locate the source of the problem? > SHOW DEV? doesn't show anything weird? > Interesting... I fired it up to run this command, and now it won't finish booting, it gets stuck at the ?? ? %DECnet-I-LOADED, network base image loaded, version = 05.0D.00 message...? I do remember running the command and I did not notice any strange error counts... Will try a conversational boot later.? If not, I'll try to restore it from tape. carlos. From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Apr 30 08:25:03 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 09:25:03 -0400 Subject: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11? In-Reply-To: References: <201904300029.x3U0TKX726345586@floodgap.com> <60954F41-1AC0-4099-B02B-F75493178895@comcast.net> <6CFC999F-D8FE-420D-8E24-4FC837F64668@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <2678891F-98AC-47DC-998F-52E01C913B70@comcast.net> > On Apr 29, 2019, at 9:05 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 4/29/19 6:47 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> I want to say that the OSU webserver for VMS supports running over DECnet, but my memory could be faulty. I?ve only used WASD on VMS. > > I think this sounds like a neat ~> fun thing to do. > > But how does a web server run over DECnet? > > I guess conceptually you can serve web pages across any protocol that can carry HTTP. > > But I guess you could also have a client that ran over DECnet or need a gateway to TCP/IP. Yes. What I meant is that one could take an existing HTTP client and server, or create one, substituting DECnet sockets for the TCP sockets. The protocol would work just fine that way. You'd need to decide how to deal with DECnet packet boundaries, something TCP doesn't have (a major omission). The simplest is to pay no attention to them, which is what I understand Ultrix "streaming DECnet" sockets to do. An alternative would be to make use of them, for example by saying that the entire HTTP header is in one packet and the payload (if any) follows in separate packets. paul From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 30 08:50:46 2019 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 13:50:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11? In-Reply-To: <2678891F-98AC-47DC-998F-52E01C913B70@comcast.net> References: <201904300029.x3U0TKX726345586@floodgap.com> <60954F41-1AC0-4099-B02B-F75493178895@comcast.net> <6CFC999F-D8FE-420D-8E24-4FC837F64668@avanthar.com> <2678891F-98AC-47DC-998F-52E01C913B70@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1990238891.2605704.1556632246924@mail.yahoo.com> I apologize if this has been mentioned.? http://shop-pdp.net/rthtml/tcpip.php Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Tue, Apr 30, 2019 at 9:25 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > On Apr 29, 2019, at 9:05 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 4/29/19 6:47 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> I want to say that the OSU webserver for VMS supports running over DECnet, but my memory could be faulty. I?ve only used WASD on VMS. > > I think this sounds like a neat ~> fun thing to do. > > But how does a web server run over DECnet? > > I guess conceptually you can serve web pages across any protocol that can carry HTTP. > > But I guess you could also have a client that ran over DECnet or need a gateway to TCP/IP. Yes.? What I meant is that one could take an existing HTTP client and server, or create one, substituting DECnet sockets for the TCP sockets.? The protocol would work just fine that way.? You'd need to decide how to deal with DECnet packet boundaries, something TCP doesn't have (a major omission).? The simplest is to pay no attention to them, which is what I understand Ultrix "streaming DECnet" sockets to do.? An alternative would be to make use of them, for example by saying that the entire HTTP header is in one packet and the payload (if any) follows in separate packets. ??? paul From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 30 08:50:46 2019 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 13:50:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11? In-Reply-To: <2678891F-98AC-47DC-998F-52E01C913B70@comcast.net> References: <201904300029.x3U0TKX726345586@floodgap.com> <60954F41-1AC0-4099-B02B-F75493178895@comcast.net> <6CFC999F-D8FE-420D-8E24-4FC837F64668@avanthar.com> <2678891F-98AC-47DC-998F-52E01C913B70@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1990238891.2605704.1556632246924@mail.yahoo.com> I apologize if this has been mentioned.? http://shop-pdp.net/rthtml/tcpip.php Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Tue, Apr 30, 2019 at 9:25 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > On Apr 29, 2019, at 9:05 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 4/29/19 6:47 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> I want to say that the OSU webserver for VMS supports running over DECnet, but my memory could be faulty. I?ve only used WASD on VMS. > > I think this sounds like a neat ~> fun thing to do. > > But how does a web server run over DECnet? > > I guess conceptually you can serve web pages across any protocol that can carry HTTP. > > But I guess you could also have a client that ran over DECnet or need a gateway to TCP/IP. Yes.? What I meant is that one could take an existing HTTP client and server, or create one, substituting DECnet sockets for the TCP sockets.? The protocol would work just fine that way.? You'd need to decide how to deal with DECnet packet boundaries, something TCP doesn't have (a major omission).? The simplest is to pay no attention to them, which is what I understand Ultrix "streaming DECnet" sockets to do.? An alternative would be to make use of them, for example by saying that the entire HTTP header is in one packet and the payload (if any) follows in separate packets. ??? paul From john at forecast.name Tue Apr 30 09:51:12 2019 From: john at forecast.name (John Forecast) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 10:51:12 -0400 Subject: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11? In-Reply-To: <2678891F-98AC-47DC-998F-52E01C913B70@comcast.net> References: <201904300029.x3U0TKX726345586@floodgap.com> <60954F41-1AC0-4099-B02B-F75493178895@comcast.net> <6CFC999F-D8FE-420D-8E24-4FC837F64668@avanthar.com> <2678891F-98AC-47DC-998F-52E01C913B70@comcast.net> Message-ID: <24C8182D-375E-4263-97FD-107A0E14AB48@forecast.name> > On Apr 30, 2019, at 9:25 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > >> On Apr 29, 2019, at 9:05 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 4/29/19 6:47 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >>> I want to say that the OSU webserver for VMS supports running over DECnet, but my memory could be faulty. I?ve only used WASD on VMS. >> >> I think this sounds like a neat ~> fun thing to do. >> >> But how does a web server run over DECnet? >> >> I guess conceptually you can serve web pages across any protocol that can carry HTTP. >> >> But I guess you could also have a client that ran over DECnet or need a gateway to TCP/IP. > > Yes. What I meant is that one could take an existing HTTP client and server, or create one, substituting DECnet sockets for the TCP sockets. The protocol would work just fine that way. You'd need to decide how to deal with DECnet packet boundaries, something TCP doesn't have (a major omission). The simplest is to pay no attention to them, which is what I understand Ultrix "streaming DECnet" sockets to do. An alternative would be to make use of them, for example by saying that the entire HTTP header is in one packet and the payload (if any) follows in separate packets. > > paul > > DECnet-Ultrix SOCK_STREAM sockets completely ignore message boundaries on both input and output. Early on we ran X-windows over DECnet just by changing the socket address family and the connect/accept logic. Very early on we had to test with SOCK_STREAM since DECnet was the first (and only?) protocol to make use of SOCK_SEQPACKET sockets and there was a crash lurking in the 4.2BSD kernel socket code for such sockets. John. From jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch Tue Apr 30 11:27:31 2019 From: jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 18:27:31 +0200 Subject: Unknown 1970 Tapedrive In-Reply-To: <856e4f85-fa15-92e1-9a58-5dc17539d01d@sydex.com> References: <7efc3ebd-4725-8f26-e533-ed3aac33c2df@sydex.com> <1d3e54b0-4752-4ecb-506e-50eb3f36eac2@bluewin.ch> <856e4f85-fa15-92e1-9a58-5dc17539d01d@sydex.com> Message-ID: <79398c3d-cd6b-7af5-68d8-40c084ac296d@bluewin.ch> On 29.04.19 22:28, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 4/29/19 12:56 PM, Jos Dreesen via cctalk wrote: > >> >> 1970, also all TTL is dated 1969 or 1970. >> >> Jos > > That would fit right in with a key-tape scheme. Can you tell if the > capstan motor is a stepper? > > --Chuck > > I put up some more pics (Tapehead & capstan drive). It does not use stepper. It seems it was made by US firm Sangamo, as is etched in some of the PCB's In view of the head's condition I will not persue this further. Jos From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Tue Apr 30 11:28:17 2019 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 18:28:17 +0200 Subject: Unknown 1970 Tapedrive In-Reply-To: <856e4f85-fa15-92e1-9a58-5dc17539d01d@sydex.com> References: <7efc3ebd-4725-8f26-e533-ed3aac33c2df@sydex.com> <1d3e54b0-4752-4ecb-506e-50eb3f36eac2@bluewin.ch> <856e4f85-fa15-92e1-9a58-5dc17539d01d@sydex.com> Message-ID: <0d2c8d9e-aa5b-8f00-3c3c-7c10771a35d3@greenmail.ch> On 29.04.19 22:28, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 4/29/19 12:56 PM, Jos Dreesen via cctalk wrote: > >> >> 1970, also all TTL is dated 1969 or 1970. >> >> Jos > > That would fit right in with a key-tape scheme. Can you tell if the > capstan motor is a stepper? > > --Chuck > > I put up some more pics (Tapehead & capstan drive). It does not use stepper. It seems it was made by US firm Sangamo, as is etched in some of the PCB's In view of the head's condition I will not persue this further. Jos From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 30 12:06:26 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 10:06:26 -0700 Subject: Unknown 1970 Tapedrive In-Reply-To: <0d2c8d9e-aa5b-8f00-3c3c-7c10771a35d3@greenmail.ch> References: <7efc3ebd-4725-8f26-e533-ed3aac33c2df@sydex.com> <1d3e54b0-4752-4ecb-506e-50eb3f36eac2@bluewin.ch> <856e4f85-fa15-92e1-9a58-5dc17539d01d@sydex.com> <0d2c8d9e-aa5b-8f00-3c3c-7c10771a35d3@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: <52a88e93-1fb8-a43a-8ed7-a6102ee882d6@sydex.com> On 4/30/19 9:28 AM, jos via cctalk wrote: > > I put up some more pics (Tapehead & capstan drive). It does not use > stepper. > > It seems it was made by US firm Sangamo, as is etched in some of the PCB's > > In view of the head's condition I will not persue this further. > The head doesn't look to be large enough to hold read and write components (regular 1/2" computer tape drives usually have a read-after-write setup). My guess is a data logger or key-to-tape setup. --Chuck From john at ziaspace.com Tue Apr 30 13:02:24 2019 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 18:02:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Excessive amount of time in interrupt stack mode Message-ID: > The system is mostly idle, RAM is mostly free (there's 32mb), > there is almost no paging, but the CPU is spending upwards of 70% of the > time in the interrupt stack mode. If I had to guess, I'd say the most likely culprit is ethernet. Try disconnecting ethernet, perhaps the AUI, too, and see if it's any different. John From t.gardner at computer.org Tue Apr 30 13:17:49 2019 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 11:17:49 -0700 Subject: Unknown 1970 Tapedrive In-Reply-To: <0d2c8d9e-aa5b-8f00-3c3c-7c10771a35d3@greenmail.ch> References: <7efc3ebd-4725-8f26-e533-ed3aac33c2df@sydex.com> <1d3e54b0-4752-4ecb-506e-50eb3f36eac2@bluewin.ch> <856e4f85-fa15-92e1-9a58-5dc17539d01d@sydex.com> <0d2c8d9e-aa5b-8f00-3c3c-7c10771a35d3@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: <00c701d4ff81$05f7d8a0$11e789e0$@computer.org> The Sangamo Electric Co . manufactured electrical meters, time switches and sonar and radio equipment, among other items, in Springfield, IL from the 1890s until 1978. If your US house is old enough u might still have one of their meters on the wall The device is either an instrumentation or an audio recorder, see: https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/search/object/SILNMAHTL_16729 tom -----Original Message----- From: jos [mailto:jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch] Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2019 9:28 AM To: Chuck Guzis via cctalk Subject: Re: Unknown 1970 Tapedrive On 29.04.19 22:28, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 4/29/19 12:56 PM, Jos Dreesen via cctalk wrote: > >> >> 1970, also all TTL is dated 1969 or 1970. >> >> Jos > > That would fit right in with a key-tape scheme. Can you tell if the > capstan motor is a stepper? > > --Chuck > > I put up some more pics (Tapehead & capstan drive). It does not use stepper. It seems it was made by US firm Sangamo, as is etched in some of the PCB's In view of the head's condition I will not persue this further. Jos From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 13:20:24 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 14:20:24 -0400 Subject: Unknown 1970 Tapedrive In-Reply-To: <00c701d4ff81$05f7d8a0$11e789e0$@computer.org> References: <7efc3ebd-4725-8f26-e533-ed3aac33c2df@sydex.com> <1d3e54b0-4752-4ecb-506e-50eb3f36eac2@bluewin.ch> <856e4f85-fa15-92e1-9a58-5dc17539d01d@sydex.com> <0d2c8d9e-aa5b-8f00-3c3c-7c10771a35d3@greenmail.ch> <00c701d4ff81$05f7d8a0$11e789e0$@computer.org> Message-ID: > The Sangamo Electric Co . manufactured electrical meters, time switches and sonar and radio equipment, among other items, in Springfield, IL from the 1890s until 1978. And a zillion tons of capacitors. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 30 13:30:25 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 11:30:25 -0700 Subject: Unknown 1970 Tapedrive In-Reply-To: References: <7efc3ebd-4725-8f26-e533-ed3aac33c2df@sydex.com> <1d3e54b0-4752-4ecb-506e-50eb3f36eac2@bluewin.ch> <856e4f85-fa15-92e1-9a58-5dc17539d01d@sydex.com> <0d2c8d9e-aa5b-8f00-3c3c-7c10771a35d3@greenmail.ch> <00c701d4ff81$05f7d8a0$11e789e0$@computer.org> Message-ID: <74ced742-720d-a9d7-7419-cfa538296698@sydex.com> On 4/30/19 11:20 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: >> The Sangamo Electric Co . manufactured electrical meters, time switches and sonar and radio equipment, among other items, in Springfield, IL from the 1890s until 1978. > > And a zillion tons of capacitors. That's where I recognize the name. --Chuck From petermallan at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 14:39:59 2019 From: petermallan at gmail.com (Peter Allan) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 20:39:59 +0100 Subject: Greetings Message-ID: On 4/28/19 3:55 PM, Ray Jewhurst via cctalk wrote: > I am new to the list and would like to introduce myself. I > am a computer history buff who especially likes DEC machines. > I unfortunately don't own any hardware but I use Simh on a daily > basis. I would like to start off with a question. I see that Bitsavers > has a copy of VMS 1.5 and wanted to know if anyone got it working > with the Vax 780 simulator? > I hope to learn a lot from this group. Hi Ray, about 18 months ago, I did indeed install VMS 1.5 on a simulated (with simh) VAX-11/780. It was not particularly difficult, but it did take a bit more effort than I expected. Here is what I did and the problems that I came across. I am typing this from memory, so I might have mis-remembered the odd fact. The instructions tell you to create a bootable disk from tape using the DSC utility. However, DSC was something that ran in PDP-11 emulation mode on a VAX and was discontinued early enough in the evolution of VMS that it was not present on any of my simulated systems (VMS 4.x, 5.x and 7.3). I needed to build a VMS 3.0 system in order to complete copying the VMS 1.5 tape to disk. If you have a simulated PDP-11 system, you might be able to use that instead. Building the VMS 3.0 system gave me another problem in that I tried using a simulated TE16 (Massbus) tape drive to read the VMS 3.0 installation tape. This should have been fine, but actually I uncovered a bug in simh. Bob Supnik fixed the bug, but you do need to use an up to date version of simh to get the bug fix. If you need to use an old version of simh for some reason, then use a TS (Unibus) tape drive and all should be well. VMS 1.5 is primitive compared with later versions, but does have historical interest. Do let me know if you want any further information about my adventures with VMS 1.5. Cheers Peter Allan From allisonportable at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 14:45:34 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 15:45:34 -0400 Subject: Excessive amount of time in interrupt stack mode In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 04/30/2019 02:02 PM, John Klos via cctalk wrote: >> The system is mostly idle, RAM is mostly free (there's 32mb), >> there is almost no paging, but the CPU is spending upwards of 70% of the >> time in the interrupt stack mode. > > If I had to guess, I'd say the most likely culprit is ethernet. Try > disconnecting ethernet, perhaps the AUI, too, and see if it's any > different. > > John Last time I'd seen that another system on the network was jabbering...? it had a bad DEQNA. Allison From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Tue Apr 30 04:25:29 2019 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 19:25:29 +1000 Subject: Greetings In-Reply-To: References: <67ff4fb5-7a62-0835-07a4-2cbe0626d565@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <11961447-0d79-55c6-d1a1-e6373749fdd3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: > On 29 Apr 2019, at 21:47, allison via cctech wrote: >> > You are limited to what the VAX-11/780 system had for peripherals and > typically under 8MB ram (it maxed at 16mb). I know later 780s (probably with an upgraded memory controller) supported 64MB of memory. I have used VMS 1.6 and started managing VMS systems around the 2.4 timeframe. I haven?t looked but does the simh 11/780 also provide PDP-11 compatibility mode? You used to run a very large amount of -11 code in VMS 1.x.. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From vax11.net at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 08:07:13 2019 From: vax11.net at gmail.com (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 09:07:13 -0400 Subject: Excessive amount of time in interrupt stack mode In-Reply-To: <37647775-e8a3-5852-c96a-8c0002e4e7ae@gmail.com> References: <7917d8d9-ec1f-2e6d-fe11-79ddf76889de@gmail.com> <52568675-5e02-d653-ca50-950a7554dc6b@e-bbes.com> <37647775-e8a3-5852-c96a-8c0002e4e7ae@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 08:50 Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > > On 2019-04-29 13:11, Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk wrote: > >> Dear ccmp'ers: > >> > >> For a while now, I noticed that my vaxstation 4000/60 with OpenVMS 7.2 > >> had become sluggish, but I had not had the time to investigate the > >> problem. The system is mostly idle, RAM is mostly free (there's 32mb), > >> there is almost no paging, but the CPU is spending upwards of 70% of the > >> time in the interrupt stack mode. Currently, I am running it headless > >> because I have not had the time to fix the monitor (it still has the > >> framebuffer inside, but this sluggishness issue was present before with > >> the monitor attached). I have read that this can be caused by "faulty > >> i/o devices that interrupt the cpu continuously". What else can be done > >> to locate the source of the problem? > > SHOW DEV? doesn't show anything weird? > > > Interesting... I fired it up to run this command, and now it won't > finish booting, it gets stuck at the > %DECnet-I-LOADED, network base image loaded, version = 05.0D.00 > message... I do remember running the command and I did not notice any > strange > error counts... > > Will try a conversational boot later. If not, I'll try to restore it > from tape. > My first guess would have been network problems, and this seems to point towards that too. Can you try booting with the network cable unplugged and see if it does anything different? Pat > From rich.cini at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 08:54:37 2019 From: rich.cini at gmail.com (Richard Cini) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 13:54:37 +0000 Subject: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11? Message-ID: Thanks. That?s how I was able to get on-line (with lots of help from JerryW). Great resource and highly recommended. Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Brian Roth via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2019 9:51 AM To: Paul Koning via cctalk; Grant Taylor; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: What do to with an Internet-connected PDP-11? I apologize if this has been mentioned. http://shop-pdp.net/rthtml/tcpip.php Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Tue, Apr 30, 2019 at 9:25 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > On Apr 29, 2019, at 9:05 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 4/29/19 6:47 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> I want to say that the OSU webserver for VMS supports running over DECnet, but my memory could be faulty. I?ve only used WASD on VMS. > > I think this sounds like a neat ~> fun thing to do. > > But how does a web server run over DECnet? > > I guess conceptually you can serve web pages across any protocol that can carry HTTP. > > But I guess you could also have a client that ran over DECnet or need a gateway to TCP/IP. Yes. What I meant is that one could take an existing HTTP client and server, or create one, substituting DECnet sockets for the TCP sockets. The protocol would work just fine that way. You'd need to decide how to deal with DECnet packet boundaries, something TCP doesn't have (a major omission). The simplest is to pay no attention to them, which is what I understand Ultrix "streaming DECnet" sockets to do. An alternative would be to make use of them, for example by saying that the entire HTTP header is in one packet and the payload (if any) follows in separate packets. paul From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 11:32:07 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 11:32:07 -0500 Subject: Anyone ever attempt repairs on CTI boards for DEC Professionals? Message-ID: Hi, All, In preparing for my VCF-East exhibit, I went through my stack of DEC Pro gear. The good news is I had enough working hardware to get a Pro350 running Venix fully operational. The bad news is that I don't have enough working hardware to have even a second functional Pro. One of my RX50 controllers has a mechanically bunged up CTI ZIF socket. It doesn't look repairable so I'm probably going to have to replace it with a transplant from another board. One of my standard (mono) video cards displays bit garbage on power-up. I haven't found schematics for it yet (bitsavers has schematics for the Pro380 CPU, the RX50 controller, the RX50, the RD50). I could probably pull the RAM and test it outside the board, but beyond that, I'm stabbing at things. I did a lot of googling around and I haven't seen a lot of repair details on these. Not really surprised about that, but I figure it was worth asking if anyone has attempted component-level repair on DEC Professionals. I'm sure there's lots of experience with board swapping - that will definitely solve my problems. Oh... and I happen to be one video controller short anyway. I suppose a partial machine made its way to me at some point. I know my Pro380 used to be a console for our 8530. I was able to rescue the console at least. I probably got the Pro350s sometime in the mid-1990s when people were dumping them. I'm still a bit puzzled why I have *5* 256K memory cards. There's only 6 slots and once you put in the RX50 controller, the RD controller, the video card, and possibly the color bitplane extension card, you've got 2 slots left. One fun bit - I was able to break into the Venix box using the 'guest' account (I guessed there was one) and run John the Ripper on an i7 Linux laptop to crack all the hashes. 10/12 took literally seconds. One password was '82', another was 'Bob'. The root password took a few hours because it was two dictionary words. In the end, though, they all fell. The default root password for Venix is in the manuals ('gnomes'). They at least changed it on this box, but 1984 crypto is no match for 21st Century cracking. I don't see DEC Pro systems talked about much - they were kinda slow and definitely limited in their expansion. For a time, they were a cute packaged PDP-11 system but that CTI bus connector is a royal PITA. I am not shocked there weren't that many peripherals for it, but for a "desktop computer", how many different kinds of interfaces does the average office user need? If anyone happens to be coming to VCF East this weekend and has dead Pro gear, I could use a card to pull a CTI connector from. At least I should be able to get the one RX50 controller going. -ethan From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Tue Apr 30 12:34:10 2019 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 10:34:10 -0700 Subject: Newest Batch of Items from Sellam's VWoCW Just Posted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've updated the photos for the items in the April 18, 2019 batch (that have not been sold). You can jump directly to that batch using the following link: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit?pli=1#gid=949372371&range=A48 Note: this link is subject to be broken the next time I add a batch of items; if so, just seek out the April 18, 2019 batch header. Thanks! Sellam On Mon, Apr 29, 2019 at 9:27 PM Sellam Ismail wrote: > Good Monday Evening (or Tuesday Morning if you are beyond the > International Dateline)! > > Here is the latest batch of computers and boards and peripherals and > things that I've carefully curated for your consideration and consumption > from my collection: > > Homebrew Small Form Factor S-100 System > Indus GT 5.25" Floppy Drive (Atari) > ADPI Easi-Disk 5.25" External Serial Disk Drive > Camwil Printwheel - Pica 10 > Camwil Printwheel - Elite 12 > Diablo Black Cloth Ribbon > Diablo HiType-I FIlm Ribbon (6 pack) > GP Technologies Printwheel - Titan Legal 10 > Xerox Metal Printwheel - Titan Legal 10 > Xerox Metal Printwheel - Vintage 12 > Toshiba T1950CT Laptop > Toshiba T4900CT Laptop > Commodore 1311 Joystick (boxed) > Microsoft InPort Mouse w/Mouse Interface > Articulate Systems Voice Impact Pro > Dysan 100 MD2HD 5.25" Floppy Diskettes (10-pack) > Curtis Electro Devices PR5200B 32x8 Memory Programmer > Asante FriendlyNet Adapter > Perkin-Elmer PC AT Single T4 4 Meg Transputer > CompuPro CPU 8085/88 > CompuPro CPU 8085/88 (incomplete) > CompuPro RAM16 > CompuPro RAM21 > Comrex The S100 TimePiece > JVB Electronics Spool-Z-Q 100 > MATCO Data Products EPROM Emulator/Programmer > Morrow Designs MM256K > CompuPro/Viasyn SPUZ 64K > Viasyn Interfacer 3A (bare board) > Viasyn Interfacer 4 (bare board) > Atari XG-1 Light Gun > Atari XE Keyboard > IBM PCjr Internal Modem > IBM PCjr RF Modulator > MOS Technology KIM-1 (Rev. A) > Commodore KIM-1 (Rev. G) > Radio Shack TRS-80 64K Color Computer > DEC Celebris FP 590 PC > > Links to information on these items and more can be found here: > > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit?pli=1#gid=949372371&range=A1 > > Photos are linked in the descriptions. I will be going back and adding > photos for the last couple batches in the near future and will post an > update when they are up. > > As ever, please contact me directly by e-mail via > to inquire or make an offer on a particular item. > > Thank you! > > Sellam > From john at ziaspace.com Tue Apr 30 16:55:22 2019 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 21:55:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Raspberry Pi for vaxen turbochannel Message-ID: > It occurs to me that the turbochannel slots have 4A each. It would be > entirely possible to print a whole open source board like the raspberry > Pi (or banana Pi, etc) on a turbochannel card and kill two birds with > one stone. I'n not quite sure why people are so interested in killing birds with stones, but perhaps that's a discussion for another time :) I've thought about doing something similar. I use my Raspberry Pis / small computers to do more than just MOP boot, serve NFS, and perhaps NAT or route to the Internet: https://hackaday.io/project/218-speed-up-pkgsrc-on-retrocomputers (it does need to be updated a little) It's not entirely clear whether you're talking about making a board that a Pi (whether Raspberry, Banana, or other compatible) can just plug in, or if you're talking about making a full TURBOchannel board that has a Pi on the board itself ("print a whole open source board"). If the full board, then it would make a lot more sense if it was interfaced directly to TURBOchannel and could present itself as various devices such as mass storage, ethernet and GPIO. Otherwise, why bother with the complexity? My VAXstation 4000/90 has a TURBOchannel adapter. It was not easy to find, nor was it cheap. I'm currently using it for a TC-USB card: https://web.archive.org/web/20170831062121/http://www.flxd.de/tc-usb/ So a Pi on a TURBOchannel card wouldn't be useful for any of my other VAXstation 4000/60 machines (nor VLC). Otherwise, it would make a lot more sense to instead mount a Pi in a 3.5" drive's space and use a Molex drive power connector to power it. One can even get fancy and get a 12 volt to 5 volt regulator to power the Pi. I looked in to the idea of using an ESP8266 in place of the AUI to give older machines wireless, but it seems this is hardly trivial: https://hackaday.com/2015/06/12/retro-edition-the-lan-before-time/ That also dissuaded me from imagining something that could plug in to the AUI port and interface with a Pi or other SBC. The same goes for a modern, inexpenive, small way to interface an SBC with the 10BASE2 ports on older machines. So I can't picture any better way to get ethernet from the back of the machine to a Pi / SBC, internal or otherwise, without an AUI and ethernet cable. How were you thinking of doing that? John From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 30 18:51:10 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 16:51:10 -0700 Subject: Raspberry Pi for vaxen turbochannel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> It occurs to me that the turbochannel slots have 4A each. It would be entirely possible >> to put a board like the raspberry Pi on a turbochannel card When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.