From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Sep 1 11:26:43 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2018 12:26:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/04 on eBay Message-ID: <20180901162643.F3D3018C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> For those who didn't catch it: https://www.ebay.com/itm/202415330983 I have bought from this seller before (very happy with the results), but am not otherwise affiliated. The -11/04 is a nice UNIBUS starter/test machine (my UNIBUS board debug machine is an -11/04). The CPU is a single (hex) board, and it's really simple and straightforward - very easy to work on and fix. (You don't even need to put it on an extender card! :-) Depending on the backplane that's in the machine, it might be super-easy to upgrade to an -11/34 (if it's a DD11-P, as many /04's are, just pull the CPU card and plug in a set of /34 boards). Not sure what's up with the M105/M7821; they aren't standalone cards, but go with some other card (they are addressing and interrupt/vector functionality). No idea what it was, though... Noel From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Sep 1 11:41:37 2018 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2018 09:41:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WTB: 64K cache SIMM (72-pin) In-Reply-To: <2485917a-3eee-8a2e-26c9-4144278f9e05@rickmurphy.net> from Rick Murphy via cctalk at "Aug 31, 18 09:37:33 pm" Message-ID: <201809011641.w81GfbAM24772652@floodgap.com> > > Trying to restore an Alpha Micro ColdFire-based system, and it's missing > > its cache SIMM. It works without it, but it sure would be nice. AM doesn't > > have much info on it but it appears to be a 72-pin 64KB SIMM (unknown > > speed), same keying as 72-pin RAM SIMMs. > > > > I doubt this is a custom part and ISTR that PCs of around that time used > > something similar. If you've got something like this mouldering in your > > parts drawer, please advise. Thanks! > > > I have three devices which if I remember right were cache modules, but > they all appear to be 80 pin devices. > Slightly longer pins than the typical 72-pin SIMMs, fit into a vertical > socket on the MB. Any chance you've got the pin count wrong? An excellent question, but it is exactly the same socket as the 72-pin RAM SIMMs below it. I even labouriously counted all the pins on the board socket this morning just in case I'd missed something, and it's 72. The service manual even warns against installing RAM there. Is this actually a *non*-standard thing? I know Apple had all kinds of boffo L2 cache configurations for the beige Power Macs but Apple's Apple and certainly larger than Alpha Micro. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Seen on hand dryer: "Push button for a message from your congressman." ----- From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sat Sep 1 13:36:40 2018 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2018 14:36:40 -0400 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! References: <201808312156.w7VLuc7H19726556@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4A1D36EFA065423F95E9E1964D09C893@310e2> Speaking of AUI and hubs etc., any interest in a 10baseT hub with an AUI port? Allied Telesyn/CentreCom MR820T or IBM 8222-016 (AUI _and_ 10base-2) ? m ----- Original Message ----- From: "systems_glitch via cctalk" To: "Cameron Kaiser" ; "CCTalk" Sent: Friday, August 31, 2018 6:01 PM Subject: Re: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! > Yeah, Allied Telesyn/Telesis made (and still makes!) really decent hardware > at a midrange price. I often recommend their gigabit and PoE switches for > cost-sensitive projects, especially where management isn't really needed. > > Thanks, > Jonathan > > On Fri, Aug 31, 2018 at 5:56 PM Cameron Kaiser via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > Allied Telesis made a "multi port tap" that provided four AUI ports off a >> > single Ethernet tap. I don't know if it was a repeater/hub inside, or >> what. >> > It was much smaller than a DELNI or DEREP. >> >> Pretty sure I know the device you're talking about and I think it was >> a hub internally. I liked it a lot better than the DELNI. >> >> Come to think of it, I liked most of Allied Telesyn's stuff. I still have >> a 10Mbit hub of theirs handling the low speed systems and the 10b2 segment >> going to the HP 9000, and a whole mess of the transceivers which are >> periodically useful on AUI-only systems. >> >> -- >> ------------------------------------ personal: >> http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- >> Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * >> ckaiser at floodgap.com >> -- #include >> ------------------------------------------------ >> From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Sep 1 13:45:41 2018 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2018 11:45:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: <4A1D36EFA065423F95E9E1964D09C893@310e2> from Mike Stein via cctalk at "Sep 1, 18 02:36:40 pm" Message-ID: <201809011845.w81IjfY618153722@floodgap.com> > Speaking of AUI and hubs etc., any interest in a 10baseT hub with an AUI port? > Allied Telesyn/CentreCom MR820T I have (two of) the MR820TR, which has all of the above plus 10b2. Great device, incredibly reliable, running non-stop for years. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- yankee hotel foxtrot. yankee hotel foxtrot. yankee hotel foxtrot. konec. --- From systems.glitch at gmail.com Sat Sep 1 13:44:52 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2018 14:44:52 -0400 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: <201809011845.w81IjfY618153722@floodgap.com> References: <4A1D36EFA065423F95E9E1964D09C893@310e2> <201809011845.w81IjfY618153722@floodgap.com> Message-ID: And, like many Allied Telesyn/Telesis products, NO POWER BRICK! An auto-switching supply is built right into the hub. Thanks, Jonathan On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 2:45 PM Cameron Kaiser via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Speaking of AUI and hubs etc., any interest in a 10baseT hub with an AUI > port? > > Allied Telesyn/CentreCom MR820T > > I have (two of) the MR820TR, which has all of the above plus 10b2. Great > device, incredibly reliable, running non-stop for years. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: > http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- yankee hotel foxtrot. yankee hotel foxtrot. yankee hotel foxtrot. > konec. --- > From Bruce at Wild-Hare.com Sat Sep 1 17:55:13 2018 From: Bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2018 16:55:13 -0600 Subject: Novapalooza in 2 months... In-Reply-To: <5B897E6E.7010609@flying-disk.com> References: <5B897E6E.7010609@flying-disk.com> Message-ID: <5d481c9a-6def-e6a4-124f-fcb51d34aa08@Wild-Hare.com> I see what you mean... sorta like the DEC "Rainbow"? Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. Boulder, Colorado USA bkr at WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org On 8/31/2018 11:44 AM, Alan Frisbie via cctalk wrote: > Bruce Ray wrote: > > > Really, the Nova is 50? Yup - so join us in celebrating the personal and > > technical impact of this youngster.. > > I always found it amusing that Data General's computers were > named after transitory phenomena: Nova, Supernova, Eclipse. > > Of course, in the grand scale of things, we all are.? :-( > > Alan From dave at 661.org Sat Sep 1 22:44:32 2018 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2018 20:44:32 -0700 Subject: WTB: 64K cache SIMM (72-pin) In-Reply-To: <201809011641.w81GfbAM24772652@floodgap.com> References: <201809011641.w81GfbAM24772652@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On September 1, 2018 9:41:37 AM PDT, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: >> > Trying to restore an Alpha Micro ColdFire-based system, and it's >missing >> > its cache SIMM. It works without it, but it sure would be nice. AM >doesn't >> > have much info on it but it appears to be a 72-pin 64KB SIMM >(unknown >> > speed), same keying as 72-pin RAM SIMMs. >> > >> > I doubt this is a custom part and ISTR that PCs of around that time >used >> > something similar. If you've got something like this mouldering in >your >> > parts drawer, please advise. Thanks! >> > >> I have three devices which if I remember right were cache modules, >but >> they all appear to be 80 pin devices. >> Slightly longer pins than the typical 72-pin SIMMs, fit into a >vertical >> socket on the MB. Any chance you've got the pin count wrong? > >An excellent question, but it is exactly the same socket as the 72-pin >RAM >SIMMs below it. I even labouriously counted all the pins on the board >socket >this morning just in case I'd missed something, and it's 72. The >service >manual even warns against installing RAM there. > >Is this actually a *non*-standard thing? I know Apple had all kinds of >boffo >L2 cache configurations for the beige Power Macs but Apple's Apple and >certainly larger than Alpha Micro. > >-- >------------------------------------ personal: >http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- >Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * >ckaiser at floodgap.com >-- Seen on hand dryer: "Push button for a message from your >congressman." ----- I had a regular Pentium motherboard with cache like that. The manual describes this as COAST for Cache On A Stick. The actual SIMM has gold fingers that are much longer than the ones found on regular DRAM SIMMs. I curiously tried putting a regular SIMM into a COAST slot and vice versa. It didn't work because of this length difference. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org From useddec at gmail.com Sun Sep 2 02:12:23 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2018 02:12:23 -0500 Subject: Unisys keyboards Message-ID: Two Unisys PCK105-SKB look unused, but one is yellowed. Sorry, I forgot to describe them as keyboards. Thanks, Paul From Flash688 at flying-disk.com Sun Sep 2 14:52:27 2018 From: Flash688 at flying-disk.com (Alan Frisbie) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2018 12:52:27 -0700 Subject: Novapalooza in 2 months... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5B8C3F7B.20200@flying-disk.com> > > Alan Frisbie via cctalk wrote: > > I always found it amusing that Data General's computers were > > named after transitory phenomena: Nova, Supernova, Eclipse. > Bruce Ray wrote: > > I see what you mean... sorta like the DEC "Rainbow"? Good one! I didn't see that coming. :-) Alan From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Sep 2 15:05:53 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2018 14:05:53 -0600 Subject: Novapalooza in 2 months... In-Reply-To: <5B8C3F7B.20200@flying-disk.com> References: <5B8C3F7B.20200@flying-disk.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 2, 2018, 1:53 PM Alan Frisbie via cctalk wrote: > > > Alan Frisbie via cctalk wrote: > > > I always found it amusing that Data General's computers were > > > named after transitory phenomena: Nova, Supernova, Eclipse. > > > Bruce Ray wrote: > > > > I see what you mean... sorta like the DEC "Rainbow"? > > Good one! I didn't see that coming. :-) > I thought the rainbow line would be forever when I bought mine... boy, did I call that wrong. Now that I have the benefits of hindsight, it's clear to see the design flaws. The biggest being lack of a general expansion bus, only purpose built slots... Warner > From ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org Sun Sep 2 16:49:16 2018 From: ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org (Andrew Luke Nesbit) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2018 22:49:16 +0100 Subject: Unisys keyboards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Paul, On 02/09/2018 08:12, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: > Two Unisys PCK105-SKB look unused, but one is yellowed. > > Sorry, I forgot to describe them as keyboards. I realized the beauty of mechanical keyboards earlier this year, and I am gradually changing my workflow to returning to using them. This includes acquiring a small collection for comparison purposes, availability, and, more interestingly, RE work that involves the PS/2 protocol. I've searched the web for the PCK105-SKB but I have been unable to find a proper description or even images. Normally I use ISO UK or Apple Mac UK layout, but a US layout is good too. Please could you point me to details about these keyboards? Thanks!! Kind regards, Andrew -- OpenPGP key: EB28 0338 28B7 19DA DAB0 B193 D21D 996E 883B E5B9 From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Sep 2 16:54:52 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2018 14:54:52 -0700 Subject: Unisys keyboards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40E2898F-25E8-4E24-8D24-708A465341E4@shiresoft.com> > On Sep 2, 2018, at 2:49 PM, Andrew Luke Nesbit via cctalk wrote: > > Dear Paul, > > On 02/09/2018 08:12, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: >> Two Unisys PCK105-SKB look unused, but one is yellowed. >> >> Sorry, I forgot to describe them as keyboards. > > I realized the beauty of mechanical keyboards earlier this year, and I > am gradually changing my workflow to returning to using them. This > includes acquiring a small collection for comparison purposes, > availability, and, more interestingly, RE work that involves the PS/2 > protocol. > > I've searched the web for the PCK105-SKB but I have been unable to find > a proper description or even images. > > Normally I use ISO UK or Apple Mac UK layout, but a US layout is good too. > > Please could you point me to details about these keyboards? Thanks!! For non-classic stuff (e.g. modern computers for work) I use DAS Keyboards. They have several models including a Mac version. They use cherry mechanical key switches. I have 3 and I?m very pleased with how they feel. TTFN - Guy From systems.glitch at gmail.com Sun Sep 2 19:43:00 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2018 20:43:00 -0400 Subject: WTB: Altair 680, Any Condition, Any Configuration Message-ID: All, I'm looking for an Altair 680. I've been working with Jeff Albrecht's A680 during the RAM board design process, and would like to continue working on a few things for the 680, but I'd also like to send Jeff's machine back to him! Configuration is not particularly important to me. I'd like something with a non-rev 0 motherboard in it if possible -- the easiest way to tell is that there will be a slot for the expansion riser. Front panel vs. turnkey, branding, etc. are not important to me. I'd potentially be interested in even an empty case! Thanks, Jonathan From mtapley at swri.edu Sun Sep 2 20:02:27 2018 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2018 01:02:27 +0000 Subject: WTB: Altair 680, Any Condition, Any Configuration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jonathan, no connection to this site: http://www.altair680kit.com but I assume you are familiar with it? - Mark 210-522-6025 office 210-379-4635 cell > On Sep 2, 2018, at 7:43 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > > All, > > I'm looking for an Altair 680. I've been working with Jeff Albrecht's A680 > during the RAM board design process, and would like to continue working on > a few things for the 680, but I'd also like to send Jeff's machine back to > him! > > Configuration is not particularly important to me. I'd like something with > a non-rev 0 motherboard in it if possible -- the easiest way to tell is > that there will be a slot for the expansion riser. Front panel vs. turnkey, > branding, etc. are not important to me. > > I'd potentially be interested in even an empty case! > > Thanks, > Jonathan From systems.glitch at gmail.com Sun Sep 2 20:38:13 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2018 21:38:13 -0400 Subject: WTB: Altair 680, Any Condition, Any Configuration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, that's Grant Stockly's site. As far as I know, he's not currently making any kits. Further, he's had several of my S-100 boards for, at this point, years, and seems to be unwilling to return them to me. I recently contacted him about purchasing the design documents for the Altair 680 Kit. I haven't heard back. Grant, if you're reading these emails and just not responding, please give me a reply or a phone call -- you have my email address and phone number. Thanks, Jonathan On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 9:02 PM Tapley, Mark wrote: > Jonathan, > no connection to this site: > > http://www.altair680kit.com > > but I assume you are familiar with it? > - Mark > 210-522-6025 office > 210-379-4635 cell > > > > > On Sep 2, 2018, at 7:43 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > All, > > > > I'm looking for an Altair 680. I've been working with Jeff Albrecht's > A680 > > during the RAM board design process, and would like to continue working > on > > a few things for the 680, but I'd also like to send Jeff's machine back > to > > him! > > > > Configuration is not particularly important to me. I'd like something > with > > a non-rev 0 motherboard in it if possible -- the easiest way to tell is > > that there will be a slot for the expansion riser. Front panel vs. > turnkey, > > branding, etc. are not important to me. > > > > I'd potentially be interested in even an empty case! > > > > Thanks, > > Jonathan > > From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sun Sep 2 20:48:12 2018 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2018 21:48:12 -0400 Subject: WTB: Altair 680, Any Condition, Any Configuration References: Message-ID: <847F7FFC5E97454582C2473AC4960B32@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "systems_glitch via cctalk" To: "Tapley, Mark" Cc: "CCTalk" Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2018 9:38 PM Subject: Re: WTB: Altair 680, Any Condition, Any Configuration > ...he's had several of my S-100 boards for, at this > point, years, and seems to be unwilling to return them to me. --- Sorry to say I had the same experience with another list member, several 256K Cromemco memory boards in my case. You know who you are... ;-) m From systems.glitch at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 08:19:42 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2018 09:19:42 -0400 Subject: VWoCW - New Items Posted for Sale from Sellam's Collection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The little A.R.T. EPP-1 programmer is a handy little device, I've got one. Doesn't have the most massive range of supported devices, but it's very convenient to use! You just dump Intel HEX files in through the serial port, from any computer with RS-232 and a terminal program. Thanks, Jonathan On Mon, Sep 3, 2018 at 2:54 AM Sellam Ismail via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hello Folks. > > I've got a new batch of stuff for your weekend perusing: > > A.R.T. Dutch Design EPP-1F E(E)Prom Programmer > Radio Shack TRS-80 Twelve Meg Disk System > Radio Shack TRS-80 Twelve Meg Disk System > Radio Shack TRS-80 Color Computer Mini Disk > Radio Shack TRS-80 Color Computer Mini Disk > Radio Shack TRS-80 Color Computer Mini Disk > Exatron Stringy Floppy Drive > Exatron Stringy Floppy Drive > Panasonic JR-200U Personal Computer > Panasonic RK-P400C 4-color Graphic Penwriter > Qume QumeTrak 842 8" floppy disk drive > 1-800-FLOPPYS Smart Communications System > MFJ MFJ-1278B Multi-mode Data Controller > Suncom side-mount joystick controller > TI PHP1200 Peripheral Expansion System > Network Computing Devices NCD XploraPro XQ > > As always, an index of links to the specific items above is available for > your convenience in the New Arrivals Niche: > > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit?pli=1#gid=949372371&range=A1 > > Thanks! > > Sellam > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Sep 3 09:58:38 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2018 07:58:38 -0700 Subject: Milwaukee Computers MC-1200 Message-ID: Another small project off my plate. Ethan had asked me years ago to make copies of the software for this machine. It is pretty obscure, one full page add in Byte, and it sank without a trace. 6502, p-System, totally custom MFM-encoded floppy interface based on a Moto 6852 synchronous serial interface chip. I had bought a Supercard Pro a while ago, and set it up to do some hard-sectored floppy imaging. Figured this would be a good test case, since it didn't have the problems with dealing with out of sync data streams (the SCP doesn't grok more than one sector hole so you have to turn off index synchronization). Made images, dragged my machine out of storage, cleaned it up, made a clone from the SCP image, and it booted! yay! SCP images are up under http://bitsavers.org/bits/MilwaukeeComputers I also put up cleaner images of the schematic and board layout, and annotated a disassembly of the boot prom from a scanned listing i've had for a while under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/milwaukeeComputers One thing I noticed that made me nervous is looking at the code there is no checksum on either the sector address or data fields on the floppy. I made an image of a floppy that I bulk-erased and initialized this morning, and all you see are the sync bytes and data, no trailing data where a crc would be. From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Mon Sep 3 10:39:23 2018 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2018 17:39:23 +0200 Subject: Some late fifties HP measurement equipment available. ( Switzerland ) Message-ID: All, the following late fifties HP equipment is available in Switzerland. Stored in less than ideal conditions, but seem otherwise quite OK. Feel free to forward to more fitting mailing list / fora. Not my equipment, my only interest in this is saving these from the scrapheap. HEWLETT PACKARD TIME INTERVAL UNIT 526B HEWLETT PACKARD ELECTRONIC COUNTER 524C HEWLETT PACKARD DIGITAL RECORDER 560A ( Possibly a second HP524(b) , unsure of this ) I will forward email adresses tio the seller, up to you to complete. He expects to raise some money, unsure if realistic or not. Jos Dreesen From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 3 10:46:28 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2018 08:46:28 -0700 Subject: Milwaukee Computers MC-1200 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9773ea20-2752-f929-43ba-4ae54b73bca2@sydex.com> On 09/03/2018 07:58 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > One thing I noticed that made me nervous is looking at the code there is no > checksum on either the sector address or data fields on the floppy. I made an > image of a floppy that I bulk-erased and initialized this morning, and all you > see are the sync bytes and data, no trailing data where a crc would be. Looking at the ROM code disassembly, that certainly appears to be the case. Perhaps the attitude was "if you want to check your data, include a check in the data yourself". It wouldn't be the first time that this was done. Contrast with the Moto app note here for an 8" 3740-compatible setup using the 6852: http://www.bitsavers.org/components/motorola/6800/exorciser/AN764_A_Floppy_Disk_Controller_Using_the_MC6852_Oct76.pdf I recall that a friend had a KIM-1 with the KMISI expansion and a single SA400 floppy disk drive. I don't recall the details, but getting reliable operation was nearly impossible. --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Sep 3 11:37:52 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2018 12:37:52 -0400 Subject: Some late fifties HP measurement equipment available. ( Switzerland ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <892cf1e3-fd49-5f42-85bc-d2f307b95be1@telegraphics.com.au> On 2018-09-03 11:39 AM, jos via cctalk wrote: > All, > > the following late fifties HP equipment is available in Switzerland. > Stored in less than ideal conditions, but seem otherwise quite OK. > > Feel free to forward to more fitting mailing list / fora. > I have forwarded to https://groups.io/g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment/topics ...so nobody else needs to. > Not my equipment, my only interest in this is saving these from the > scrapheap. > > From bhilpert at shaw.ca Mon Sep 3 14:34:06 2018 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2018 12:34:06 -0700 Subject: Some late fifties HP measurement equipment available. ( Switzerland ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0EF0934C-2F89-4C63-9F15-F8334190FBD2@shaw.ca> On 2018-Sep-03, at 8:39 AM, jos via cctalk wrote: > the following late fifties HP equipment is available in Switzerland. > Stored in less than ideal conditions, but seem otherwise quite OK. > > Feel free to forward to more fitting mailing list / fora. > > Not my equipment, my only interest in this is saving these from the scrapheap. > > > HEWLETT PACKARD TIME INTERVAL UNIT 526B > HEWLETT PACKARD ELECTRONIC COUNTER 524C > HEWLETT PACKARD DIGITAL RECORDER 560A > > ( Possibly a second HP524(b) , unsure of this ) > > I will forward email adresses tio the seller, up to you to complete. > He expects to raise some money, unsure if realistic or not. I think I've made this comment before when this type of equipment has been mentioned on the list, but as it's being mentioned again: The 524C is a tube-based NIXIE-display digital frequency/period/event counter, the 526B is a plug-in input module for the 524, and IIRC the 560 is a printing recorder for use with the 524. http://madrona.ca/e/edte/HP524C/index.html http://madrona.ca/e/edte/HP520/index.html In my opinion, it's a reasonable acquisition for a computer museum as an example of tube-based digital technology from which the 1st generation of computers were built (seeing as how tube-based computers are a tad difficult to come by these days). If you're an HP collector, the 520 series was HP's first step into digital technology. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Sep 4 03:24:54 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2018 10:24:54 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Some late fifties HP measurement equipment available. ( Switzerland ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Sep 2018, jos wrote: > HEWLETT PACKARD TIME INTERVAL UNIT 526B > HEWLETT PACKARD ELECTRONIC COUNTER 524C > HEWLETT PACKARD DIGITAL RECORDER 560A > > ( Possibly a second HP524(b) , unsure of this ) We have an HP 523CR, a real beauty. It has over 60 tubes! The LGP-30 has just twice as much. Christian From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Sep 4 08:13:59 2018 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2018 08:13:59 -0500 Subject: Milwaukee Computers MC-1200 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20180904131600.DFAC04E7DE@mx2.ezwind.net> At 09:58 AM 9/3/2018, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >Ethan had asked me years ago to make copies of the software for this machine. >It is pretty obscure, one full page add in Byte, and it sank without a trace. >6502, p-System, totally custom MFM-encoded floppy interface based on a Moto 6852 >synchronous serial interface chip. Interesting! Jon Auringer (of Madison, WI) mentioned having one of these on this list in 2004. Have you ever connected any names to this company - founders or employees? - John From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 4 08:43:44 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2018 06:43:44 -0700 Subject: ISO Moto Exorciser and EXORterm docs Message-ID: <7f2753b0-2d29-7b34-00db-d7fa3737f88b@bitsavers.org> I spent some time this weekend documenting the hardware of these and dumping some more MDOS floppies. We had one copy of the MDOS manual which replaced the poor copy I had in bitsavers.org/components/motorola/6800/exorciser. It would be nice to find more/better docs, esp docs on the EXORterm 150 or 155. The terminal has a keytronics kb .ca 1978, of course all the foam was crumbled. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 4 09:00:18 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2018 07:00:18 -0700 Subject: Milwaukee Computers MC-1200 In-Reply-To: <20180904131600.DFAC04E7DE@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <20180904131600.DFAC04E7DE@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <18bf4545-3eb1-63cc-1b56-ee989eee7fee@bitsavers.org> On 9/4/18 6:13 AM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > Have you ever connected any names to this company - founders or employees? Nope. I had wondered if they were former GE Medical Systems people, being they were so close to their New Berlin plant. We have two in the CHM collection. This is the first time I've ever seen one work. I was thinking it might be fun to try to get FORTH running on it. I may also mod mine so that it puts out proper RS-232 levels with a piggyback board on the 1988. They just power it with +5v, which doesn't work at all talking to my Mac. An old Wyse-75 wasn't so fussy. If you look at the schematic, they did some pretty weird things, like using a 2758 for address decoding, and then there's the floppy disk interface.. No error checking? 1980 seems really late to be trying to build a system like this. It looks like a design OSI would have come up with. From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 11:24:57 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2018 09:24:57 -0700 Subject: ISO Moto Exorciser and EXORterm docs In-Reply-To: <7f2753b0-2d29-7b34-00db-d7fa3737f88b@bitsavers.org> References: <7f2753b0-2d29-7b34-00db-d7fa3737f88b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 6:43 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I spent some time this weekend documenting the hardware of these > and dumping some more MDOS floppies. > > We had one copy of the MDOS manual which replaced the poor copy I > had in bitsavers.org/components/motorola/6800/exorciser. > > It would be nice to find more/better docs, esp docs on the EXORterm 150 or > 155. The terminal has a keytronics kb .ca 1978, of course all the > foam was crumbled. > I have a copy of the "EXORterm 155 Display Console User's Guide" M68SXD155(D2), dated September 1981. It appears to include schematics. I can add this to my pile of Things To Scan. Gave away the terminal it came with a long time ago (had been basically destroyed by mice...) - Josh From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 12:50:59 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2018 13:50:59 -0400 Subject: Milwaukee Computers MC-1200 In-Reply-To: <20180904131600.DFAC04E7DE@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <20180904131600.DFAC04E7DE@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 9:13 AM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > At 09:58 AM 9/3/2018, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >>Ethan had asked me years ago to make copies of the software for this machine. >>It is pretty obscure, one full page add in Byte, and it sank without a trace. > Jon Auringer (of Madison, WI) mentioned having one of these on this list in 2004. I got my unit directly from Jon when i was on a work trip to Madison but he didn't have any floppies for it then. Now, thanks to Al, I can burn some floppies and do more than interact with the ROMs. It's basically a generic 6502 with 64K of DRAM, 1-2 floppies (mine has 2) and as Al mentioned, an oddball sync-serial disk interface and boots up to an OS that favors p-System PASCAL apps. Definitely obscure. -ethan From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 12:52:33 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2018 10:52:33 -0700 Subject: ISO Moto Exorciser and EXORterm docs In-Reply-To: References: <7f2753b0-2d29-7b34-00db-d7fa3737f88b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 9:24 AM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > > I have a copy of the "EXORterm 155 Display Console User's Guide" > M68SXD155(D2), dated September 1981. It appears to include schematics. I > can add this to my pile of Things To Scan. Gave away the terminal it came > with a long time ago (had been basically destroyed by mice...) > I have an EXORterm 155, the version that is just a terminal. It has a solder pad footprint for an EXORbus expansion backplane which is not populated. Screened on the PCB is: CRT CONTROLLER 84EW8054B01 REV A. I have no documentation for it. If your Things To Scan pile it too high I'd be willing to scan the manual. I should also dump the firmware EPROMs in mine if no one has done so. Mine has the following present: 51AW1018B22 U49 8432 EXTENDED DSPLAY (U59 empty) (U70 empty) 51AW1018B24 U78 8432 TERMINAL CNTRL 51AW1018B25 U89 8432 68K EDIT MODE 51AW1018B26 U98 8432 BASIC DISPLAY #2 51AW1018B27 U104 8432 BASIC DISPLAY #1 (U110 empty) From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 4 14:28:18 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2018 12:28:18 -0700 Subject: ISO Moto Exorciser and EXORterm docs In-Reply-To: References: <7f2753b0-2d29-7b34-00db-d7fa3737f88b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 9/4/18 10:52 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > I have no documentation for it. If your Things To Scan pile it too > high I'd be willing to scan the manual. > > I should also dump the firmware EPROMs in mine if no one has done so. > Mine has the following present: > 51AW1018B22 U49 8432 EXTENDED DSPLAY > (U59 empty) > (U70 empty) > 51AW1018B24 U78 8432 TERMINAL CNTRL > 51AW1018B25 U89 8432 68K EDIT MODE > 51AW1018B26 U98 8432 BASIC DISPLAY #2 > 51AW1018B27 U104 8432 BASIC DISPLAY #1 > (U110 empty) > Josh Dersch has a manual that he's sending to be to scan Dumping the roms would be good. As soon as we know if they have normal pinouts (the ones in the EXORterm 150 needed to have the chip enables fiddled with Maybe Josh could check that before sending the manual to me. From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 14:56:29 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2018 12:56:29 -0700 Subject: ISO Moto Exorciser and EXORterm docs In-Reply-To: References: <7f2753b0-2d29-7b34-00db-d7fa3737f88b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 12:28 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 9/4/18 10:52 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > >> I have no documentation for it. If your Things To Scan pile it too >> high I'd be willing to scan the manual. >> >> I should also dump the firmware EPROMs in mine if no one has done so. >> Mine has the following present: >> 51AW1018B22 U49 8432 EXTENDED DSPLAY >> (U59 empty) >> (U70 empty) >> 51AW1018B24 U78 8432 TERMINAL CNTRL >> 51AW1018B25 U89 8432 68K EDIT MODE >> 51AW1018B26 U98 8432 BASIC DISPLAY #2 >> 51AW1018B27 U104 8432 BASIC DISPLAY #1 >> (U110 empty) >> > > Josh Dersch has a manual that he's sending to be to scan > > Dumping the roms would be good. As soon as we know if they have normal > pinouts (the ones in the EXORterm 150 needed to have the chip enables fiddled with > Maybe Josh could check that before sending the manual to me. The part numbers on the devices in my EXORterm 155 that are not obscured by the labels are Hitachi HN462716G EPROMs, not mask ROMs. If they are all the same EPROM devices they shouldn't require anything special to dump. I'll take a look today. From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 14:59:22 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2018 12:59:22 -0700 Subject: ISO Moto Exorciser and EXORterm docs In-Reply-To: References: <7f2753b0-2d29-7b34-00db-d7fa3737f88b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 12:28 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 9/4/18 10:52 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > > I have no documentation for it. If your Things To Scan pile it too > > high I'd be willing to scan the manual. > > > > I should also dump the firmware EPROMs in mine if no one has done so. > > Mine has the following present: > > 51AW1018B22 U49 8432 EXTENDED DSPLAY > > (U59 empty) > > (U70 empty) > > 51AW1018B24 U78 8432 TERMINAL CNTRL > > 51AW1018B25 U89 8432 68K EDIT MODE > > 51AW1018B26 U98 8432 BASIC DISPLAY #2 > > 51AW1018B27 U104 8432 BASIC DISPLAY #1 > > (U110 empty) > > > > Josh Dersch has a manual that he's sending to be to scan > > Dumping the roms would be good. As soon as we know if they have normal > pinouts (the ones in the EXORterm 150 needed to have the chip enables > fiddled with > Maybe Josh could check that before sending the manual to me. > > > Per the schematics, the ROMs are either MCM68A316E mask ROMs or 2716 EPROMs (selectable by jumpers). The jumpers appear to twiddle the chip enable signals, so I'm guessing it's similar (if not identical) to the 150. - Josh From k7kt at yahoo.com Mon Sep 3 11:42:56 2018 From: k7kt at yahoo.com (Ernie) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2018 16:42:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: HP 9885M Flexible Disk Drive available References: <618666658.390193.1535992976920.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <618666658.390193.1535992976920@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Mark ! Ran across your 2016 note at ( http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2016-July/025530.html ) while looking for info on the HP9885M Disk Drive. I have one of these old drives in what appears to be near mint condition. I can't fully test it, don't have any disks, but it powers up without any magic smoke leaking out. LEDs lit up, capstan drive is working, belt is in pristine condition, ventilation fan is working, boards are powered. Certainly looks like it's ready to go. I've carried the thing all over the country as I've moved between jobs, intending to use the chassis in construction of a different electronic device. It has spent a lot of time in closets. I don't have an HP9825A or HP9845 computer and I'm getting too old to acquire such toys. If you have interest, I would like for someone who understands and appreciates such things to have it. I can share pictures. It would be a shame to disassemble such a well-built old beast. Please let me know. Have a great week! Ernie K7KT at yahoo.com From mso at exoss.net Sun Sep 2 18:07:39 2018 From: mso at exoss.net (M South) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2018 23:07:39 +0000 Subject: JLS Vidtek Big Board Xerox 820 Message-ID: <3f305705-9dce-6612-c523-a8b3b6b30bde@exoss.net> Hi, It was my company that produced that and I was one of the designers... JLS Computers (aka Vidtek). produced in Toronto similar to SBC BB1 Enrico Lazzerini enrico.lazzerini at email.it Mon Feb 9 16:30:06 CST 2015 Previous message: Memorex MRX IV 6250 BPI SuperReel Tape on sale - 4 reels maybe new Next message: begging drivers/docs for obscure old PC/Mac hardware Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Hi, I'm a bit curious on this old historical motherboard derived from original Ferguson Bigboard 1. Is there anybody who have it and he can send a pic of it? Or Is there anybody who can describe it? I not found anything on internet, just all I report below: Micro/Access ????????????? | Toronto, Ontario????? (1983-1993) ??????? SYSOP | Max Southall ???? SOFTWARE | Custom by Bob Kamins and Max Southall ???? COMMENTS | "The Micro/Access BBS system grew out of the need to ????????????? | service the product line of the JLS/Vidtek Big Board ????????????? | project. The JLS Big Board was a reincarnation with ????????????? | hardware and software enhancements of the original ????????????? | Ferguson Big Board Z80 single board computer system sold ????????????? | to hobbyists. Redesigned by Joe L. Sutherland, with input ????????????? | from Bob Kamins, with later hardware, firmware and ????????????? | software fixes by Max Southall, it was a solid CP/M-80 ????????????? | based system which also was the basis for the Xerox 820 ????????????? | series. Customers (or any others) of the Big Board were ????????????? | charged $50 a year for access, which eventually included ????????????? | email access to the then research-oriented internet. ????????????? | There were hundreds of paying customers.? The BBS ????????????? | software based on Bob Kamins' work was written in ????????????? | Microsoft's BASIC, and compilation was with Microsoft's ????????????? | M80 compiler.

"Eventually Max Southall completely ????????????? | rewrote Stuart Lynne's (yes, the later ICANN chairman) ????????????? | UUPC program and incorporated an email program interface, ????????????? | all in assembler, which connected the Micro/Access BBS ????????????? | users via UUCP to Unix-based internet-based ????????????? | communications.

"Prior to 1985, the system was known ????????????? | online as the Vidtek system, which grew out of ????????????? | manufacturing video and CP/M boards for the Apple ][ ????????????? | clone systems. SCSI hard disk subsystems were ????????????? | manufactured and sold for the Big Board and sold all over ????????????? | the world, and the BBS used the same hardware as was sold ????????????? | to customers." - Max Southall Regards Enrico From enrico.lazzerini at email.it Mon Sep 3 17:28:48 2018 From: enrico.lazzerini at email.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2018 00:28:48 +0200 Subject: R: JLS Vidtek Big Board Xerox 820 In-Reply-To: <3f305705-9dce-6612-c523-a8b3b6b30bde@exoss.net> References: <3f305705-9dce-6612-c523-a8b3b6b30bde@exoss.net> Message-ID: Wow... finally .... Do you have something to add looking back into your memories? Old Pictures? It would be so great! Enrico -----Messaggio originale----- Da: M South [mailto:mso at exoss.net] Inviato: luned? 3 settembre 2018 01:08 A: cctech at classiccmp.org; enrico.lazzerini at email.it Oggetto: JLS Vidtek Big Board Xerox 820 Hi, It was my company that produced that and I was one of the designers... JLS Computers (aka Vidtek). produced in Toronto similar to SBC BB1 Enrico Lazzerini enrico.lazzerini at email.it Mon Feb 9 16:30:06 CST 2015 Previous message: Memorex MRX IV 6250 BPI SuperReel Tape on sale - 4 reels maybe new Next message: begging drivers/docs for obscure old PC/Mac hardware Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Hi, I'm a bit curious on this old historical motherboard derived from original Ferguson Bigboard 1. Is there anybody who have it and he can send a pic of it? Or Is there anybody who can describe it? I not found anything on internet, just all I report below: Micro/Access ????????????? | Toronto, Ontario????? (1983-1993) ??????? SYSOP | Max Southall ???? SOFTWARE | Custom by Bob Kamins and Max Southall ???? COMMENTS | "The Micro/Access BBS system grew out of the need to ????????????? | service the product line of the JLS/Vidtek Big Board ????????????? | project. The JLS Big Board was a reincarnation with ????????????? | hardware and software enhancements of the original ????????????? | Ferguson Big Board Z80 single board computer system sold ????????????? | to hobbyists. Redesigned by Joe L. Sutherland, with input ????????????? | from Bob Kamins, with later hardware, firmware and ????????????? | software fixes by Max Southall, it was a solid CP/M-80 ????????????? | based system which also was the basis for the Xerox 820 ????????????? | series. Customers (or any others) of the Big Board were ????????????? | charged $50 a year for access, which eventually included ????????????? | email access to the then research-oriented internet. ????????????? | There were hundreds of paying customers.? The BBS ????????????? | software based on Bob Kamins' work was written in ????????????? | Microsoft's BASIC, and compilation was with Microsoft's ????????????? | M80 compiler.

"Eventually Max Southall completely ????????????? | rewrote Stuart Lynne's (yes, the later ICANN chairman) ????????????? | UUPC program and incorporated an email program interface, ????????????? | all in assembler, which connected the Micro/Access BBS ????????????? | users via UUCP to Unix-based internet-based ????????????? | communications.

"Prior to 1985, the system was known ????????????? | online as the Vidtek system, which grew out of ????????????? | manufacturing video and CP/M boards for the Apple ][ ????????????? | clone systems. SCSI hard disk subsystems were ????????????? | manufactured and sold for the Big Board and sold all over ????????????? | the world, and the BBS used the same hardware as was sold ????????????? | to customers." - Max Southall Regards Enrico From sieler at allegro.com Tue Sep 4 15:56:16 2018 From: sieler at allegro.com (sieler_allegro) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2018 13:56:16 -0700 Subject: Free: Dell Poweredge 2950 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Anyone interested in a free dell poweredge 2950? (Free for pickup in Redwood City, CA, USA) Two 73 (?) GB SAS drives, some amount of RAM. Worked the last time it was powered on, about 2 years ago. No idea how much memory or other features. It was bought (used) to be a spare for another Dell, but once we realized the original Dell used SATA drives, we never used this one. We're moving offices, and this has to find a home or a scrapheap. (It was introduced about 2006, so that makes the 10 year classic cutoff :) thanks, Stan From sales at elecplus.com Tue Sep 4 16:14:06 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2018 16:14:06 -0500 Subject: 3 really old keyboards Message-ID: <019101d44494$378d4240$a6a7c6c0$@com> https://bit.ly/2PxonDk https://bit.ly/2wH38rA Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From sales at elecplus.com Tue Sep 4 16:27:15 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2018 16:27:15 -0500 Subject: 3 really old keyboards--corrected 2nd link, sorry In-Reply-To: <019101d44494$378d4240$a6a7c6c0$@com> References: <019101d44494$378d4240$a6a7c6c0$@com> Message-ID: <01bc01d44496$0db95560$292c0020$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Electronics Plus via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2018 4:14 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: 3 really old keyboards https://bit.ly/2PxonDk https://bit.ly/2oGCUBa Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From sieler at allegro.com Tue Sep 4 16:57:25 2018 From: sieler at allegro.com (sieler_allegro) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2018 14:57:25 -0700 Subject: Free: DDS-1 tapes, unused (new-old stock) Message-ID: Hi, Anyone want 100 unopened/unused DDS-1 tapes? (60 from Sony, 40 from unknown) Still in original boxes :) Free for pickup in Redwood City, or negotiate with my office manager (to her benefit :) to ship them for you. thanks, Stan From sieler at allegro.com Tue Sep 4 17:40:13 2018 From: sieler at allegro.com (sieler_allegro) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2018 15:40:13 -0700 Subject: Free: DDS-1 tapes, unused (new-old stock) Message-ID: <41512B4E-5AEA-49A7-8FF1-262A48203ECA@allegro.com> They've been claimed, and I have someone in line, too. BTW, I may have a large number of unused cleaning DDS cartridges, too. thanks. Stan From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 21:43:01 2018 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2018 22:43:01 -0400 Subject: LSSM - Large IBM haul Message-ID: Hi all, In case others haven't seen this, the Large Scale Systems Museum has been given an opportunity to acquire a "near-mint" condition IBM System/370 and ES/9000 collection that has been maintained by a former field service tech since new: https://www.facebook.com/503408869821526/posts/1084448565050884/ Might be worth saving? =] -- -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com From Tim at Rikers.org Tue Sep 4 21:54:05 2018 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2018 20:54:05 -0600 Subject: HP-2250 in Salt Lake City Message-ID: <18a0d67a-7335-dac8-0683-6da0df538e2f@Rikers.org> Someone on this list, I don't remember who, asked me if I was interested in this, and then dropped it off. I've not gotten around to doing anything with it, and I could use the space back. If anyone is interested, holler. HP 2250 Measurement & Control Processor Pictures are the same ones that came with it. Photographer unknown. https://photos.app.goo.gl/XjEj8E8vQ8KX9xcg8 If your interested in picking it up, email me directly, please. If you have more information to share, respond to the list. :) If anyone knows more about what this is, I'd be interested to hear. I got these links from Mike on the SIMH list: http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=986 http://www.hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=5124 http://www.hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=4579 Mine is the "2250M" version. Apparently this heavy beast is "mobile" because it has wheels on it. :) From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 23:44:01 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2018 21:44:01 -0700 Subject: HP-2250 in Salt Lake City In-Reply-To: <18a0d67a-7335-dac8-0683-6da0df538e2f@Rikers.org> References: <18a0d67a-7335-dac8-0683-6da0df538e2f@Rikers.org> Message-ID: It's an HP-IB controlled data acquisition box for large real time industrial test or automation control installations. Very specialized. Think measuring or outputting 100's of analog signals in real time. Most likely meant to be connected to a HP 1000 series computer running the RTE real time operating system. HP's core test and measurement business, and the reason they went into computers at first. This real time measurement and control capabilities could not be matched by other minis or later PCs running Windows for a very long time, and the antiquated series 1000 lasted a lot longer than you'd have thought, mostly in industrial environments. Marc > On Sep 4, 2018, at 7:54 PM, Tim Riker via cctalk wrote: > > Someone on this list, I don't remember who, asked me if I was interested > in this, and then dropped it off. I've not gotten around to doing > anything with it, and I could use the space back. If anyone is > interested, holler. > > HP 2250 Measurement & Control Processor > > Pictures are the same ones that came with it. Photographer unknown. > > https://photos.app.goo.gl/XjEj8E8vQ8KX9xcg8 > > If your interested in picking it up, email me directly, please. If you > have more information to share, respond to the list. :) > > If anyone knows more about what this is, I'd be interested to hear. > > I got these links from Mike on the SIMH list: > > http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=986 > > http://www.hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=5124 > > http://www.hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=4579 > > Mine is the "2250M" version. Apparently this heavy beast is "mobile" > because it has wheels on it. :) From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 23:47:50 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2018 21:47:50 -0700 Subject: Some late fifties HP measurement equipment available. ( Switzerland ) In-Reply-To: <0EF0934C-2F89-4C63-9F15-F8334190FBD2@shaw.ca> References: <0EF0934C-2F89-4C63-9F15-F8334190FBD2@shaw.ca> Message-ID: Wow. Beautiful nixie counter, and 10MHz with tubes to boot! Impressive. The kind of stuff that made HP famous. Marc > On Sep 3, 2018, at 12:34 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > >> On 2018-Sep-03, at 8:39 AM, jos via cctalk wrote: >> the following late fifties HP equipment is available in Switzerland. >> Stored in less than ideal conditions, but seem otherwise quite OK. >> >> Feel free to forward to more fitting mailing list / fora. >> >> Not my equipment, my only interest in this is saving these from the scrapheap. >> >> >> HEWLETT PACKARD TIME INTERVAL UNIT 526B >> HEWLETT PACKARD ELECTRONIC COUNTER 524C >> HEWLETT PACKARD DIGITAL RECORDER 560A >> >> ( Possibly a second HP524(b) , unsure of this ) >> >> I will forward email adresses tio the seller, up to you to complete. >> He expects to raise some money, unsure if realistic or not. > > > > I think I've made this comment before when this type of equipment has been mentioned on the list, > but as it's being mentioned again: > > The 524C is a tube-based NIXIE-display digital frequency/period/event counter, > the 526B is a plug-in input module for the 524, > and IIRC the 560 is a printing recorder for use with the 524. > > http://madrona.ca/e/edte/HP524C/index.html > http://madrona.ca/e/edte/HP520/index.html > > In my opinion, it's a reasonable acquisition for a computer museum as an example of > tube-based digital technology from which the 1st generation of computers were built > (seeing as how tube-based computers are a tad difficult to come by these days). > > If you're an HP collector, the 520 series was HP's first step into digital technology. > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Sep 5 01:16:19 2018 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 08:16:19 +0200 Subject: IOCCC 2018 Best of show Message-ID: <20180905061619.GA18022@Update.UU.SE> Hi Sorry if this has been posted already. But some of you might get a kick out of this years "Best of show" winner of IOCCC: https://www.ioccc.org/2018/mills/ Cheers, Pontus. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 5 06:26:14 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 04:26:14 -0700 Subject: IOCCC 2018 Best of show In-Reply-To: <20180905061619.GA18022@Update.UU.SE> References: <20180905061619.GA18022@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <532b3eb6-e723-a8f1-34f7-aa8bdf61dab6@bitsavers.org> On 9/4/18 11:16 PM, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk wrote: > Hi > > Sorry if this has been posted already. But some of you might get a kick > out of this years "Best of show" winner of IOCCC: > > https://www.ioccc.org/2018/mills/ > > Cheers, > Pontus. > I thought the most interesting thing was getting a simulated PDP-7 UNIX running as part of it. https://www.ioccc.org/2018/mills/hint.text From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 5 06:38:51 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 04:38:51 -0700 Subject: IOCCC 2018 Best of show In-Reply-To: <532b3eb6-e723-a8f1-34f7-aa8bdf61dab6@bitsavers.org> References: <20180905061619.GA18022@Update.UU.SE> <532b3eb6-e723-a8f1-34f7-aa8bdf61dab6@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <99562bf5-23d3-93b7-54eb-4e5854aa5c0b@bitsavers.org> On 9/5/18 4:26 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 9/4/18 11:16 PM, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk wrote: >> Hi >> >> Sorry if this has been posted already. But some of you might get a kick >> out of this years "Best of show" winner of IOCCC: >> >> https://www.ioccc.org/2018/mills/ >> >> Cheers, >> Pontus. >> > > I thought the most interesting thing was getting a simulated PDP-7 UNIX running > as part of it. > > https://www.ioccc.org/2018/mills/hint.text > > and I just posted this on the SIMH mailing list > So the newer UNIXes are in the clear. I doubt anyone actually cares about > version 0 either, but technically it's still under copyright. http://digital-law-online.info/lpdi1.0/treatise17.html I don't think that is true since it predates the 1976 removal of the requirement for computer programs having to be registered with the Copyright office, and we know Unix didn't even have WE copyrights on the code until much later. Anything he created as replacements are, though. Hopefully, those are appropriately licensed. From mattislind at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 07:12:15 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 14:12:15 +0200 Subject: Dilog DQ604 RL01 / RL02 emulation on ST506/ST412 disk. In-Reply-To: <20180828232701.GK1553@n0jcf.net> References: <0b1101d43d0e$2e782810$8b687830$@gmail.com> <20180828175023.GB15491@n0jcf.net> <20180828232701.GK1553@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: > > It seems to be well known that the number of each size you get in the > SF-7000 package is, umm, random... so a guy needs to get several packages > and hope for plenty of white ones. > The box is marked "Made in Japan" so I started to check for other sources. Then I found "Nisshinbo Mobilon Band". They look very much like the plastibands. https://www.nisshinbo-textile.co.jp/english/goodidea/mobilon_band.html https://uk.misumi-ec.com/vona2/detail/223000860382/ Haven't ordered any yet. > > Thanks again, > > Chris > -- > Chris Elmquist > /Mattis From Martin.Hepperle at MH-AeroTools.de Wed Sep 5 07:17:25 2018 From: Martin.Hepperle at MH-AeroTools.de (Martin.Hepperle at MH-AeroTools.de) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 14:17:25 +0200 Subject: AlphaWindows - Protocol Information? Message-ID: <001101d44512$6831a980$3894fc80$@MH-AeroTools.de> In the 1990s a computer terminal standard "AlphaWindows" was proposed by the Display Industry Association (DIA). Sort of X-Windows for the poor. A few terminals appeared which supported multiple text windows following the this standard. Some limited global facts can be found in Wikipedia. I learned that for example the TeleVideo 995 and 9089 or the HP 700/70 terminals supported AlphaWindows. Obviously there were several implementation levels like: (1) Basic AlphaWindow (2) Mouse Operations (3) Decorations (4) AlphaWindow Credits Flow Control Unfortunately I cannot find any information on the protocol resp. escape sequences and the DIA is long gone. Does anyone have a manual with escape sequences for one of the terminals mentioned? Or other material describing this protocol? Note that other terminals of the similar types (e.g. HP 700/71) do not support this feature. Martin From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 5 09:39:06 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 07:39:06 -0700 Subject: AlphaWindows - Protocol Information? In-Reply-To: <001101d44512$6831a980$3894fc80$@MH-AeroTools.de> References: <001101d44512$6831a980$3894fc80$@MH-AeroTools.de> Message-ID: On 9/5/18 5:17 AM, Martin Hepperle via cctalk wrote: > In the 1990s a computer terminal standard "AlphaWindows" was proposed by the > Display Industry Association (DIA). > Sort of X-Windows for the poor. Very poor... only text in the windows. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.terminals/ielBYV-mNLM This is kind of interesting to me, because I helped get TVI 990/995 working in MAME. We obviously never had the windowing protocol information either. I wondered why a terminal needed a 68000 inside it. I'm obviously interested in anything you come up with. I guess a place to start is getting a copy of Multiview Mascot and watching the serial protocol between it and a terminal. -- Related.. I worked on a similar product in the mid-80's, except it could do Tek 4015 graphics in terminal windows. A friend just revived one of the board sets over the weekend. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/aed/colorware_cards/pictures/screen.jpg This was a board-level VME or Qbus product you talked to directly through a shared memory queue of virtual terminal connections. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 5 09:57:11 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 07:57:11 -0700 Subject: AlphaWindows - Protocol Information? In-Reply-To: References: <001101d44512$6831a980$3894fc80$@MH-AeroTools.de> Message-ID: <81a7acbb-32be-a64b-4915-db590707343c@bitsavers.org> a little more info here ftp://ftp.invisible-island.net/shuford/terminal/alphawindows_news.txt On 9/5/18 7:39 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 9/5/18 5:17 AM, Martin Hepperle via cctalk wrote: >> In the 1990s a computer terminal standard "AlphaWindows" was proposed by the >> Display Industry Association (DIA). >> Sort of X-Windows for the poor. > > Very poor... only text in the windows. > > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.terminals/ielBYV-mNLM > > This is kind of interesting to me, because I helped get TVI 990/995 working in MAME. > We obviously never had the windowing protocol information either. > > I wondered why a terminal needed a 68000 inside it. > > I'm obviously interested in anything you come up with. > > I guess a place to start is getting a copy of Multiview Mascot and watching the > serial protocol between it and a terminal. > > > -- > > Related.. I worked on a similar product in the mid-80's, except it could do Tek 4015 > graphics in terminal windows. A friend just revived one of the board sets over the weekend. > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/aed/colorware_cards/pictures/screen.jpg > > This was a board-level VME or Qbus product you talked to directly through a shared memory > queue of virtual terminal connections. > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 10:27:37 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 11:27:37 -0400 Subject: Milwaukee Computers MC-1200 In-Reply-To: <18bf4545-3eb1-63cc-1b56-ee989eee7fee@bitsavers.org> References: <20180904131600.DFAC04E7DE@mx2.ezwind.net> <18bf4545-3eb1-63cc-1b56-ee989eee7fee@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 10:00 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > We have two in the CHM collection. This is the first time I've ever seen one > work. I was thinking it might be fun to try to get FORTH running on it. That sounds cool. > I may also mod mine so that it puts out proper RS-232 levels with a > piggyback board on the 1988. They just power it with +5v, which doesn't > work at all talking to my Mac. An old Wyse-75 wasn't so fussy. Hmm... I hadn't noticed that. Glad you pointed it out. I've had problems in the past with other machines and low-voltages on RS-232. > If you look at the schematic, they did some pretty weird things, like > using a 2758 for address decoding, and then there's the floppy disk > interface.. No error checking? I found that surprising - floppies are hardly reliable enough to forego error checking. > 1980 seems really late to be trying to build a system like this. Agreed. > It looks like a design OSI would have come up with. That was my thought when I saw the 6852. It was either because of OSI or they saw an app note somewhere and decided not to use a WD 177x chip. -ethan From pbirkel at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 00:53:36 2018 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 01:53:36 -0400 Subject: VAX 11/785 "Superstar" Backplanes Message-ID: <10c301d444dc$c9dd1470$5d973d50$@gmail.com> On the 'bay: 183405165416 and 183405165414 "Scrap / Gold Recovery" Six total. One wonders what the scrappers did with the rest, and where they came from given that the location is Goffstown, New Hampshire. paul From allisonportable at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 09:11:04 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 10:11:04 -0400 Subject: VAX 11/785 "Superstar" Backplanes In-Reply-To: <10c301d444dc$c9dd1470$5d973d50$@gmail.com> References: <10c301d444dc$c9dd1470$5d973d50$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 09/05/2018 01:53 AM, Paul Birkel via cctech wrote: > On the 'bay: 183405165416 and 183405165414 "Scrap / Gold Recovery" > > > > Six total. One wonders what the scrappers did with the rest, and where they > came from given that the location is Goffstown, New Hampshire. > > > > paul > There were not many 785s,? The largest population were in the mill and ZK (Nashua NH faciltiy) So I'd expect most of them are Ex-dec. Allison From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Sep 5 09:24:17 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 10:24:17 -0400 Subject: VAX 11/785 "Superstar" Backplanes In-Reply-To: References: <10c301d444dc$c9dd1470$5d973d50$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <233F1BD2-87D5-4E90-B8DB-78A0D998DDA1@comcast.net> > On Sep 5, 2018, at 10:11 AM, allison via cctech wrote: > > On 09/05/2018 01:53 AM, Paul Birkel via cctech wrote: >> On the 'bay: 183405165416 and 183405165414 "Scrap / Gold Recovery" >> >> >> >> Six total. One wonders what the scrappers did with the rest, and where they >> came from given that the location is Goffstown, New Hampshire. >> >> >> >> paul >> > There were not many 785s, The largest population were in the mill and > ZK (Nashua NH faciltiy) > So I'd expect most of them are Ex-dec. There were also some in DEC Merrimack (MKO). Goffstown is just west of Manchester, the next town north of Merrimack and Nashua. Ex-DEC certainly would be my guess. paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Sep 5 10:57:34 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 11:57:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: LSSM - Large IBM haul Message-ID: <20180905155734.A7ECC18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Anders Nelson > https://www.facebook.com/503408869821526/posts/1084448565050884/ This is an incredibly cool thing, and my hat is off to the LSSM for undertaking this. How's the fund-raising going? If money is still needed, I'll head off to Paypal and send a goodly chunk. Noel From blstuart at bellsouth.net Wed Sep 5 10:59:15 2018 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 15:59:15 +0000 (UTC) Subject: AlphaWindows - Protocol Information? References: <1914123345.1590127.1536163155284.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1914123345.1590127.1536163155284@mail.yahoo.com> On Wed, 9/5/18, Martin Hepperle via cctalk wrote: > In the 1990s a computer terminal standard "AlphaWindows" was proposed by the > Display Industry Association (DIA). Sort of X-Windows for the poor. > > Does anyone have a manual with escape sequences for one of the terminals > mentioned? Or other material describing this protocol? It so happens that I do have a copy of the standard. I suppose I'm one of only a few who paid the $99 to DIA to get a copy. Back in the early '90s I started writing an implementation for the Mac, but ended up not getting very far before other projects pushed it down onto the stack. I'll see what I can do about scanning it for you. BLS From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 5 11:29:06 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 09:29:06 -0700 Subject: AlphaWindows - Protocol Information? In-Reply-To: <1914123345.1590127.1536163155284@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1914123345.1590127.1536163155284.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1914123345.1590127.1536163155284@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1dc666c4-7707-011c-6d3f-1eaf15b0d516@bitsavers.org> On 9/5/18 8:59 AM, Brian L. Stuart via cctalk wrote: > I'll see what I can do about scanning it for you. > Martin and I thank you! I'll try getting something to go on my real TVI 990 and 9089! From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 12:10:34 2018 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 13:10:34 -0400 Subject: LSSM - Large IBM haul In-Reply-To: <20180905155734.A7ECC18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180905155734.A7ECC18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Their latest comments on Facebook mention they're about halfway there. I just signed up for a service that reduces my lunch cost in NYC so I'll send them something. I'm hoping if I throw in $100 maybe enough others will follow. $8k to ship 8k pounds seems like a good deal, good on them! =] -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 11:57 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > From: Anders Nelson > > > https://www.facebook.com/503408869821526/posts/1084448565050884/ > > This is an incredibly cool thing, and my hat is off to the LSSM for > undertaking this. > > How's the fund-raising going? If money is still needed, I'll head off to > Paypal and send a goodly chunk. > > Noel > From echristopherson at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 12:47:11 2018 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 12:47:11 -0500 Subject: AlphaWindows - Protocol Information? In-Reply-To: References: <001101d44512$6831a980$3894fc80$@MH-AeroTools.de> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 11:57 AM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 9/5/18 5:17 AM, Martin Hepperle via cctalk wrote: > > In the 1990s a computer terminal standard "AlphaWindows" was proposed by > the > > Display Industry Association (DIA). > > Sort of X-Windows for the poor. > > Very poor... only text in the windows. > > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.terminals/ielBYV-mNLM > > This is kind of interesting to me, because I helped get TVI 990/995 > working in MAME. > We obviously never had the windowing protocol information either. > > I wondered why a terminal needed a 68000 inside it. > > I'm obviously interested in anything you come up with. > > I guess a place to start is getting a copy of Multiview Mascot and > watching the > serial protocol between it and a terminal. > > > -- > > Related.. I worked on a similar product in the mid-80's, except it could > do Tek 4015 > graphics in terminal windows. A friend just revived one of the board sets > over the weekend. > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/aed/colorware_cards/pictures/screen.jpg > > This was a board-level VME or Qbus product you talked to directly through > a shared memory > queue of virtual terminal connections. > > > Interesting stuff. I just (a few weeks ago) saw a boxed copy of FacetTerm for Unix at a store with a lot of old electronics and computer stuff. I see now that FacetTerm worked with the AlphaWindows standard (although I think it could do its own thing too). Looks like it's still available for Linux. -- Eric Christopherson From sieler at allegro.com Wed Sep 5 13:17:00 2018 From: sieler at allegro.com (sieler_allegro) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 11:17:00 -0700 Subject: Free: DDS-1 tapes, unused (new-old stock) Message-ID: <08951AA6-8EE9-4A9D-9F22-E52EADD620A9@allegro.com> The DDS cleaning tapes have been claimed. I may have more unused cleaning tapes in storage, but I won't know for a few months. If I find any, I'll post. Stan From carlojpisani at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 14:18:50 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 21:18:50 +0200 Subject: simple-ish Arduino-compatible LPC2103 dev kit In-Reply-To: <20180826160105.GA64575@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <201808260528.w7Q5SmNk25427990@floodgap.com> <20180826160105.GA64575@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: hi guys a dude has recently posted a link in our forum, he has developed a simple Arduino-compatible LPC2103 dev kit, the links point to a second link with documentation, and source he is also willng to assemble and sell boards have a look here (1) cheers Ivelegacy (webadming at DownTheBunker) (1) http://www.downthebunker.xyz/wonderland/reloaded/bazaar/viewtopic.php?f=3&p=373&sid=f80e58f32a291250a3e71666dfb80940#p373 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 14:39:20 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 15:39:20 -0400 Subject: What platform can run m68k COFF binaries? Message-ID: Hi, All, I have a backup of some old code that I thought came from a Sun3 machine, and indeed, there _are_ binaries on there, in a directory 'sun' that _do_ run on a Sun3, verified under emulation with "tme". The part that puzzles me is the collection of object files and binaries in the directory above that. 'file' tells me that they are "m68k COFF" files. From what I've read so far, COFF binaries are from System V Release 2-4. What I can't reconcile is what they might have been compiled on. Is it possible these were made for A/UX? The relevant file dates (late-1988 through mid-1989) do overlap availability of A/UX version 1. If these are for A/UX, it would be handy to verify this, then it would be more handy to be able to run them (I have source for some of this but I'm having problems getting modern C compilers to digest 30-year-old crufty code, and for a couple of the utilities I need, there is no source). I'm reading of a "shoebill" emulator. Anyone have any experience with it? Additionally, I'm reading that FreeBSD has a binary compatibility layer for COFF but I wonder if that's for Intel binaries only or if it extends to m68k. I have a lot of experience with UNIX but my thinnest amount is in the m68k arena (mostly some dabbling on Sun3 workstations and a Perkin-Elmer 7350). Thanks for any pointers or tips. -ethan From imp at bsdimp.com Wed Sep 5 15:00:03 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 14:00:03 -0600 Subject: What platform can run m68k COFF binaries? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 1:39 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > Additionally, I'm reading that FreeBSD has a binary compatibility > layer for COFF but I wonder if that's for Intel binaries only or if it > extends to m68k. > FreeBSD never ran on 68k, so I think that would be no. NetBSD, however, did and you would likely be able to run them there. There's even a sys/compat/sunos directory with this tasty comment: * the code below is only needed for sun2/sun3 emulation. in sunos_exec_aout.c which is suggestive. IIRC, I had a friend that had a special SunOS sun3 binary he ran on NetBSD on one of his 68k machines, but that was at least 10 years ago or more and I've lost touch with him... Now, this assumes it's sun3 running SunOS and not some variation of SysV. That too might work, but might not. Warner From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Sep 5 15:26:03 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 20:26:03 +0000 Subject: simple-ish Arduino-compatible LPC2103 dev kit In-Reply-To: References: <201808260528.w7Q5SmNk25427990@floodgap.com> <20180826160105.GA64575@beast.freibergnet.de>, Message-ID: There are a couple of Forth's that should run on this. Mercrisp is a little on the heavy side for the F103 but does work. I've adapted a EForth for the F407 to run on the F103's limited RAM. With this, you can avoid learning someones elses debugger and you don't have to have a special loader in the flash, like needed for the Arduino EDI. Forth is both the loader and debugger. No more compile and burn a little more age of the flash, just to debug your code. One can full test the code in small pieces before committing to flash. It would require a serial from the LPC2105. I use a FTDI board. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Carlo Pisani via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, September 5, 2018 12:18:50 PM To: holm at freibergnet.de; cctalk at classiccmp.org; spectre at floodgap.com Subject: simple-ish Arduino-compatible LPC2103 dev kit hi guys a dude has recently posted a link in our forum, he has developed a simple Arduino-compatible LPC2103 dev kit, the links point to a second link with documentation, and source he is also willng to assemble and sell boards have a look here (1) cheers Ivelegacy (webadming at DownTheBunker) (1) http://www.downthebunker.xyz/wonderland/reloaded/bazaar/viewtopic.php?f=3&p=373&sid=f80e58f32a291250a3e71666dfb80940#p373 From blstuart at bellsouth.net Wed Sep 5 15:45:26 2018 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 20:45:26 +0000 (UTC) Subject: What platform can run m68k COFF binaries? References: <368186413.62986.1536180326046.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <368186413.62986.1536180326046@mail.yahoo.com> On Wed, 9/5/18, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > The part that puzzles me is the collection of object files and > binaries in the directory above that.? 'file' tells me that they are > "m68k COFF" files.? From what I've read so far, COFF binaries are from > System V Release 2-4.? What I can't reconcile is what they might have > been compiled on.? Is it possible these were made for A/UX?? The > relevant file dates (late-1988 through mid-1989) do overlap > availability of A/UX version 1. I'm pretty sure the AT&T UNIX PC (7300/3b1) used COFF. I remember messing around with it when porting an old version of gcc to the machine. At that time, GNU was playing around with something called robotusin (COFF medicine). BLS From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 5 16:26:40 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 14:26:40 -0700 Subject: What platform can run m68k COFF binaries? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: anything that came from Unisoft Sys V or early Motorola Sys V ftp://ftp.oreilly.co.jp/palm/Linux/gcc/gdb-4.16/bfd/coff-aux.c for example. On 9/5/18 12:39 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > Hi, All, > > I have a backup of some old code that I thought came from a Sun3 > machine, and indeed, there _are_ binaries on there, in a directory > 'sun' that _do_ run on a Sun3, verified under emulation with "tme". > > The part that puzzles me is the collection of object files and > binaries in the directory above that. 'file' tells me that they are > "m68k COFF" files. From what I've read so far, COFF binaries are from > System V Release 2-4. What I can't reconcile is what they might have > been compiled on. Is it possible these were made for A/UX? The > relevant file dates (late-1988 through mid-1989) do overlap > availability of A/UX version 1. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 5 16:30:23 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 14:30:23 -0700 Subject: What platform can run m68k COFF binaries? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The other way to tell would be if they haven't had their symbols stripped and look at the libaries they are compiled with. This stuff predates shared libraries. There are probably vendor strings in there. On 9/5/18 2:26 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > anything that came from Unisoft Sys V or early Motorola Sys V > > ftp://ftp.oreilly.co.jp/palm/Linux/gcc/gdb-4.16/bfd/coff-aux.c > > for example. > > On 9/5/18 12:39 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: >> Hi, All, >> >> I have a backup of some old code that I thought came from a Sun3 >> machine, and indeed, there _are_ binaries on there, in a directory >> 'sun' that _do_ run on a Sun3, verified under emulation with "tme". >> >> The part that puzzles me is the collection of object files and >> binaries in the directory above that. 'file' tells me that they are >> "m68k COFF" files. From what I've read so far, COFF binaries are from >> System V Release 2-4. What I can't reconcile is what they might have >> been compiled on. Is it possible these were made for A/UX? The >> relevant file dates (late-1988 through mid-1989) do overlap >> availability of A/UX version 1. > From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Sep 5 16:43:52 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 17:43:52 -0400 Subject: Free: DDS-1 tapes, unused (new-old stock) In-Reply-To: <08951AA6-8EE9-4A9D-9F22-E52EADD620A9@allegro.com> References: <08951AA6-8EE9-4A9D-9F22-E52EADD620A9@allegro.com> Message-ID: <165abb11128-1ebb-1fca@webjas-vad153.srv.aolmail.net> missed? ?orig? post - how? many were there ?? I can use a? couple as? I have a? drive but? no media? yest? for it? but would be handly to have a couple? in case? I? need? to clean it...? actually? i need? ?mpe5? ?startup? tape? ?in? this? format? too....? Ed#? ?www.smeccc.org? In a message dated 9/5/2018 11:17:07 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? The DDS cleaning tapes have been claimed. I may have more unused cleaning tapes in storage, but I won't know for a few months. If I find any, I'll post. Stan From useddec at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 22:55:45 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 22:55:45 -0500 Subject: VCFMW DEC VTs, LAs Message-ID: Is anyone interested in any DEC VT50, VT52(ONE WITH PRINTER), VT78, any of the VT100 family, or any other video terminals or monitors or parts? LA35, LA36, LA120, any other printer or parts? Anything else? If asked, I will try to bring. Thanks, Paul From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 01:05:50 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 23:05:50 -0700 Subject: HP 9885M Flexible Disk Drive available In-Reply-To: <618666658.390193.1535992976920@mail.yahoo.com> References: <618666658.390193.1535992976920.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <618666658.390193.1535992976920@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks! Very interested, will respond to you directly in another email. Marc On Sep 3, 2018, at 9:42 AM, Ernie via cctalk wrote: Hi Mark ! Ran across your 2016 note at ( http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2016-July/025530.html ) while looking for info on the HP9885M Disk Drive. I have one of these old drives in what appears to be near mint condition. I can't fully test it, don't have any disks, but it powers up without any magic smoke leaking out. LEDs lit up, capstan drive is working, belt is in pristine condition, ventilation fan is working, boards are powered. Certainly looks like it's ready to go. I've carried the thing all over the country as I've moved between jobs, intending to use the chassis in construction of a different electronic device. It has spent a lot of time in closets. I don't have an HP9825A or HP9845 computer and I'm getting too old to acquire such toys. If you have interest, I would like for someone who understands and appreciates such things to have it. I can share pictures. It would be a shame to disassemble such a well-built old beast. Please let me know. Have a great week! Ernie K7KT at yahoo.com From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 05:46:26 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 06:46:26 -0400 Subject: VCFMW DEC VTs, LAs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Paul Do you have vt78/vt278 rx02 drive interface cables, I will be at vcfmw Bill On Wed, Sep 5, 2018, 11:55 PM Paul Anderson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Is anyone interested in any DEC VT50, VT52(ONE WITH PRINTER), VT78, > any of the VT100 family, or any other video terminals or monitors or parts? > > LA35, LA36, LA120, any other printer or parts? > > Anything else? If asked, I will try to bring. > > Thanks, Paul > From useddec at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 06:17:45 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 06:17:45 -0500 Subject: VCFMW DEC VTs, LAs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I forgot to mention Decmate, Rainbow and Pro units and Parts. The Robins are still buried. Paul On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 10:55 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > Is anyone interested in any DEC VT50, VT52(ONE WITH PRINTER), VT78, > any of the VT100 family, or any other video terminals or monitors or parts? > > LA35, LA36, LA120, any other printer or parts? > > Anything else? If asked, I will try to bring. > > Thanks, Paul > > > From dave at 661.org Thu Sep 6 07:33:44 2018 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2018 05:33:44 -0700 Subject: VCFMW DEC VTs, LAs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2801DDC7-69CC-4225-B493-6AEC23E8E4BE@661.org> On September 5, 2018 8:55:45 PM PDT, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: >Is anyone interested in any DEC VT50, VT52(ONE WITH PRINTER), VT78, >any of the VT100 family, or any other video terminals or monitors or >parts? > >LA35, LA36, LA120, any other printer or parts? > >Anything else? If asked, I will try to bring. > >Thanks, Paul I'm looking for a "1" key and a "data" key for an LA-12 "Correspondent" -- David Griffith dave at 661.org From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Thu Sep 6 02:56:44 2018 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Veit, Holger) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 09:56:44 +0200 Subject: Newcastle Connection Sources? Message-ID: <84ae54ba-f0c1-97d5-8957-0652b0d0b2b0@iais.fraunhofer.de> Hi, for some research on ancient Unix, I am interesting in finding the source code (tape, etc.) of the so-called "Newcastle connection", aka "UNIXes of the World Unite!" . See, for instance, https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/13f8/6c18fa780031d76b80f359d6670f9f3debdc.pdf or ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/pcs/NewcastleConnectionR1.0_1983.pdf for details. There are a few more papers which I know as well. Does someone have the source tape or pointers to it? THX in advance -- Holger From peter at vanpeborgh.eu Thu Sep 6 05:50:07 2018 From: peter at vanpeborgh.eu (Peter Van Peborgh) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 11:50:07 +0100 Subject: Weird and ancient IBM offline memory devices Message-ID: <017601d445cf$60e38fa0$22aaaee0$@eu> Vintage techie guys and girls, Second attempt - hope springs eternal. Do any of you know where I could get hold of IBM 3850 Mass storage and IBM 2321 Data cell media? 1960s-1970s. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_3850 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_2321_Data_Cell If you do, I would like to get hold of one of each. Many thanks, Peter From cramcram at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 07:39:42 2018 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 05:39:42 -0700 Subject: VCFMW DEC VTs, LAs In-Reply-To: <2801DDC7-69CC-4225-B493-6AEC23E8E4BE@661.org> References: <2801DDC7-69CC-4225-B493-6AEC23E8E4BE@661.org> Message-ID: Bring where? The Silicon Valley swap meet this Saturday? I'd be interested in VT-52 parts or a VT-100. Marc On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 5:33 AM David Griffith via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On September 5, 2018 8:55:45 PM PDT, Paul Anderson via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >Is anyone interested in any DEC VT50, VT52(ONE WITH PRINTER), VT78, > >any of the VT100 family, or any other video terminals or monitors or > >parts? > > > >LA35, LA36, LA120, any other printer or parts? > > > >Anything else? If asked, I will try to bring. > > > >Thanks, Paul > > I'm looking for a "1" key and a "data" key for an LA-12 "Correspondent" > -- > David Griffith > dave at 661.org > From cramcram at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 07:42:03 2018 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 05:42:03 -0700 Subject: VCFMW DEC VTs, LAs In-Reply-To: References: <2801DDC7-69CC-4225-B493-6AEC23E8E4BE@661.org> Message-ID: Never mind. I saw the DEC VT in the subject line and skipped over the VCFMW. Maec On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 5:39 AM Marc Howard wrote: > Bring where? The Silicon Valley swap meet this Saturday? > > I'd be interested in VT-52 parts or a VT-100. > > Marc > > > > On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 5:33 AM David Griffith via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On September 5, 2018 8:55:45 PM PDT, Paul Anderson via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >Is anyone interested in any DEC VT50, VT52(ONE WITH PRINTER), VT78, >> >any of the VT100 family, or any other video terminals or monitors or >> >parts? >> > >> >LA35, LA36, LA120, any other printer or parts? >> > >> >Anything else? If asked, I will try to bring. >> > >> >Thanks, Paul >> >> I'm looking for a "1" key and a "data" key for an LA-12 "Correspondent" >> -- >> David Griffith >> dave at 661.org >> > From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 07:46:03 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 08:46:03 -0400 Subject: VCFMW - looking for a BC80D-5K (DECMATE) disk cable/OS8 disks (RX02) Message-ID: I have asked Paul Anderson to see if he has a BC80D-5K cable for a DECMATE VT278 (same as VT78) to RX02 pedestal twin drive. I am also looking for the OS/8 disks. I am pretty sure my VT278 works, I have some spare parts too, just need the cable and the disks hopefully to have a working OS/8 system. SO - If Paul has no cable/disks and if anyone going to VCF MW looking to make a deal for these items, please contact me through my site, https://www.vintagecomputer.net/contact.cfm Thanks Billl From systems.glitch at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 09:04:10 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 10:04:10 -0400 Subject: VCFMW DEC VTs, LAs In-Reply-To: References: <2801DDC7-69CC-4225-B493-6AEC23E8E4BE@661.org> Message-ID: Definitely interested in a VT5x or VT78 terminal, potentially a real VT100 as well (currently have a C.Itoh CIT-101). Thanks, Jonathan On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 9:22 AM Marc Howard via cctalk wrote: > Never mind. I saw the DEC VT in the subject line and skipped over the > VCFMW. > > Maec > > On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 5:39 AM Marc Howard wrote: > > > Bring where? The Silicon Valley swap meet this Saturday? > > > > I'd be interested in VT-52 parts or a VT-100. > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 5:33 AM David Griffith via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> On September 5, 2018 8:55:45 PM PDT, Paul Anderson via cctalk < > >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >Is anyone interested in any DEC VT50, VT52(ONE WITH PRINTER), VT78, > >> >any of the VT100 family, or any other video terminals or monitors or > >> >parts? > >> > > >> >LA35, LA36, LA120, any other printer or parts? > >> > > >> >Anything else? If asked, I will try to bring. > >> > > >> >Thanks, Paul > >> > >> I'm looking for a "1" key and a "data" key for an LA-12 "Correspondent" > >> -- > >> David Griffith > >> dave at 661.org > >> > > > From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Thu Sep 6 09:16:25 2018 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 14:16:25 +0000 Subject: VCFMW DEC VTs, LAs In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Hi Paul, When you get to the Robins, I am looking for the cable that connects the system to the floppy drive unit. Thanks! Henk ________________________________ Van: cctalk namens Paul Anderson via cctalk Verzonden: Thursday, September 6, 2018 1:17:45 PM Aan: cctech at vax-11.org; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: VCFMW DEC VTs, LAs I forgot to mention Decmate, Rainbow and Pro units and Parts. The Robins are still buried. Paul On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 10:55 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > Is anyone interested in any DEC VT50, VT52(ONE WITH PRINTER), VT78, > any of the VT100 family, or any other video terminals or monitors or parts? > > LA35, LA36, LA120, any other printer or parts? > > Anything else? If asked, I will try to bring. > > Thanks, Paul > > > From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Sep 6 10:34:54 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 08:34:54 -0700 Subject: VT100's Message-ID: Let me start by saying this isn?t intended to start a flame war or anything. I?m genuinely curious. Why is the VT100 so popular? Personally I prefer the VT420?s, though I?d love a VT340/340+ or VT525. I have VT100?s, 320?s and 420?s. I really only use VT420?s. In fact I have one sitting next to my desk in my office hooked to a DECserver 90TL. Zane From carlojpisani at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 10:37:27 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 17:37:27 +0200 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: cause it's the simples, I guess Il giorno gio 6 set 2018 alle ore 17:35 Zane Healy via cctalk ha scritto: > > Let me start by saying this isn?t intended to start a flame war or anything. I?m genuinely curious. > > Why is the VT100 so popular? > > Personally I prefer the VT420?s, though I?d love a VT340/340+ or VT525. > > I have VT100?s, 320?s and 420?s. I really only use VT420?s. In fact I have one sitting next to my desk in my office hooked to a DECserver 90TL. > > Zane > > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 10:46:57 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 11:46:57 -0400 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Popular as a vintage terminal to match up with machines of the same time period. The 420 is lighter, smaller, has graphics it's not about that stuff b On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 11:37 AM Carlo Pisani via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > cause it's the simples, I guess > Il giorno gio 6 set 2018 alle ore 17:35 Zane Healy via cctalk > ha scritto: > > > > Let me start by saying this isn?t intended to start a flame war or > anything. I?m genuinely curious. > > > > Why is the VT100 so popular? > > > > Personally I prefer the VT420?s, though I?d love a VT340/340+ or VT525. > > > > I have VT100?s, 320?s and 420?s. I really only use VT420?s. In fact I > have one sitting next to my desk in my office hooked to a DECserver 90TL. > > > > Zane > > > > > > > From systems.glitch at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 11:03:50 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 12:03:50 -0400 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm personally interested in an original because it's the physical standard that a lot of imitations and emulations decided to implement. For similar reasons, I have a LSI ADM-3A -- not because it's the best terminal ever, but because it is so interwoven into the history of UNIX. I personally seem to use a VT220 for most of my general hacking. It's nice to have the current loop interface! Thanks, Jonathan On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 11:37 AM Carlo Pisani via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > cause it's the simples, I guess > Il giorno gio 6 set 2018 alle ore 17:35 Zane Healy via cctalk > ha scritto: > > > > Let me start by saying this isn?t intended to start a flame war or > anything. I?m genuinely curious. > > > > Why is the VT100 so popular? > > > > Personally I prefer the VT420?s, though I?d love a VT340/340+ or VT525. > > > > I have VT100?s, 320?s and 420?s. I really only use VT420?s. In fact I > have one sitting next to my desk in my office hooked to a DECserver 90TL. > > > > Zane > > > > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 6 11:16:33 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 09:16:33 -0700 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <507b2beb-5c67-e92a-a3cb-ed91353caa86@sydex.com> We didn't have a single VT100 in the house when we were running a VAX. C Itoh, CIT-220s in our case. Nice terminals with 14" screens. Lots of VT100/VT220 clones were popular. I did some programming for a specific VT220 clone from TAB products. --Chuck On 09/06/2018 09:03 AM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > I'm personally interested in an original because it's the physical standard > that a lot of imitations and emulations decided to implement. For similar > reasons, I have a LSI ADM-3A -- not because it's the best terminal ever, > but because it is so interwoven into the history of UNIX. > > I personally seem to use a VT220 for most of my general hacking. It's nice > to have the current loop interface! From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Sep 6 11:22:15 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 10:22:15 -0600 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 09/06/2018 09:37 AM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > cause it's the simples, I guess I used to naively think that the VT100 was the lowest end Video Terminal. Then I subsequently saw references to VT50 and VT52. So now I have no clue. Maybe it was just the fact that so many things claimed VT100 compatibility helped escalate VT100 in popularity. ?\_(?)_/? -- Grant. . . . unix || die From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Sep 6 11:28:53 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 09:28:53 -0700 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: <507b2beb-5c67-e92a-a3cb-ed91353caa86@sydex.com> References: <507b2beb-5c67-e92a-a3cb-ed91353caa86@sydex.com> Message-ID: <125BD8A3-70C1-4AAF-9E06-FB94E8D31160@shiresoft.com> My biggest complaint with DEC terminals (and clones) that came after the VT100 (such as the VT220/VT320/etc) is that the terminals are nice and small but the keyboards are *huge* (almost twice the width of the terminal itself). I like having a keyboard that matches the size of the terminal and the VT100 is along those lines. It is also the same complaint that I have with IBM 3178/9 terminals (e.g. connect to IBM 370 mainframes), where the terminal is relatively small but the keyboard is significantly wider (being a derivative of the IBM PC/AT keyboard) and IMHO would have been far better if IBM had left off the number pad. TTFN - Guy > On Sep 6, 2018, at 9:16 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > We didn't have a single VT100 in the house when we were running a VAX. > > C Itoh, CIT-220s in our case. Nice terminals with 14" screens. > > Lots of VT100/VT220 clones were popular. I did some programming for a > specific VT220 clone from TAB products. > > --Chuck > > > > > On 09/06/2018 09:03 AM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: >> I'm personally interested in an original because it's the physical standard >> that a lot of imitations and emulations decided to implement. For similar >> reasons, I have a LSI ADM-3A -- not because it's the best terminal ever, >> but because it is so interwoven into the history of UNIX. >> >> I personally seem to use a VT220 for most of my general hacking. It's nice >> to have the current loop interface! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 11:33:36 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 12:33:36 -0400 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: <125BD8A3-70C1-4AAF-9E06-FB94E8D31160@shiresoft.com> References: <507b2beb-5c67-e92a-a3cb-ed91353caa86@sydex.com> <125BD8A3-70C1-4AAF-9E06-FB94E8D31160@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 12:28 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: > My biggest complaint with DEC terminals (and clones) that came after the VT100 > (such as the VT220/VT320/etc) is that the terminals are nice and small but the > keyboards are *huge* (almost twice the width of the terminal itself). I agree that the LK201 is excessively wide. Back when I was using terminals every day, it was easy to plop one or two VT100/Citoh101 terminals on one desk but the VT220s we kept in the machine room mostly, sitting on top of 42" cabs, and the keyboards were thinnerthan VT100 keyboards which was handy on top of machines. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 11:38:06 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 12:38:06 -0400 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: <507b2beb-5c67-e92a-a3cb-ed91353caa86@sydex.com> References: <507b2beb-5c67-e92a-a3cb-ed91353caa86@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 12:16 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > We didn't have a single VT100 in the house when we were running a VAX. > > C Itoh, CIT-220s in our case. Nice terminals with 14" screens. We had multiple VT100s and VT101s and VT102s but at some point in the company's growth phase, we switched to Citoh 101 and 101e terminals for cost. We probably ended up 20% DEC and 80% Citoh. >> I personally seem to use a VT220 for most of my general hacking. It's nice >> to have the current loop interface! Somehow we also got 4-5 VT220s. In 1985, they were fantastic terminals (except for the width of the LK201 keyboards as mentioned elsewhere). I also used the current loop input on the VT220, when I was debugging the serial clock on my PDP-8/L. Very handy. -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 6 11:39:50 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 09:39:50 -0700 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: <125BD8A3-70C1-4AAF-9E06-FB94E8D31160@shiresoft.com> References: <507b2beb-5c67-e92a-a3cb-ed91353caa86@sydex.com> <125BD8A3-70C1-4AAF-9E06-FB94E8D31160@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On 9/6/18 9:28 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: > keyboards are *huge* are too high, and the Hi-Tek plungers in the keys crack and bind (true for the VT-5x as well) I'm going through a terminal collecting binge again. It took me a couple of days to find a terminal with a working monitor and keyboard to plug onto the MC-1200 I think every Qume keyboard I have is dead. Finally ended up fixing a WY-75 I just bought with parts from a WY-50. (It looks like it's just a rom swap to make the 50 ANSI compliant now that I have a 75 to compare it to) From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Sep 6 11:48:16 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 12:48:16 -0400 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <1571B7D2-158C-4499-9709-AD59A8A28F04@comcast.net> > On Sep 6, 2018, at 12:22 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 09/06/2018 09:37 AM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: >> cause it's the simples, I guess > > I used to naively think that the VT100 was the lowest end Video Terminal. Then I subsequently saw references to VT50 and VT52. So now I have no clue. > > Maybe it was just the fact that so many things claimed VT100 compatibility helped escalate VT100 in popularity. ?\_(?)_/? I can think of a bunch of reasons. 1. For its time, the VT100 was pretty compact. 2. It was the first DEC terminal with a detachable keyboard (not counting the GT-40) and if you needed an extension cord, you could just get a headphone cord at Radio Shack. 3. It was the first DEC terminal to implement a standard for control sequences (ANSI controls). Before then, the VT52 was certainly attractive, same screen size (24 by 80) and upper/lower case (English only, give or take some national variants). But it's much bigger and doesn't have a separate keyboard. VT50 seems like it was someone's mistake -- 12 lines, what were they thinking? Even the VT05 had 20. paul From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 6 11:54:39 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 09:54:39 -0700 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: <1571B7D2-158C-4499-9709-AD59A8A28F04@comcast.net> References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1571B7D2-158C-4499-9709-AD59A8A28F04@comcast.net> Message-ID: <9cbf089a-bfdf-98ff-4162-12fd4d23d610@bitsavers.org> On 9/6/18 9:48 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > VT50 seems like it was someone's mistake -- 12 lines, what were they thinking? IBM 3270 available in 12 or 24 lines From allisonportable at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 12:09:30 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 13:09:30 -0400 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: <9cbf089a-bfdf-98ff-4162-12fd4d23d610@bitsavers.org> References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1571B7D2-158C-4499-9709-AD59A8A28F04@comcast.net> <9cbf089a-bfdf-98ff-4162-12fd4d23d610@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1a36d750-e997-21ab-1a35-bf6167b71eae@gmail.com> On 09/06/2018 12:54 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 9/6/18 9:48 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> VT50 seems like it was someone's mistake -- 12 lines, what were they thinking? > Mostly about screen memory which back then was small and not cheap. Allison From ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org Thu Sep 6 12:10:45 2018 From: ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org (Andrew Nesbit) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 18:10:45 +0100 Subject: VT100 emulation Message-ID: Hello all, The current discussion about why VT100?s are so popular got me to rethinking a related topic. I?ve been thinking about this in the back of my mind for quite some time. First, what is the most faithful emulation software that runs on *nix systems? Or is it the case that if you are running, say, GNU/Linux in console mode, or xterm on X11, that you can get a fine emulator simply by having an accurate terminfo entry? Second, does there exist anything like a ?VT100 operating system?, that emulates the VT100 directly on the bare metal of the machine? In this case you?d use the external serial port to connect to the target machine. One example use case I have in mind here is connecting a serial cable to a server?s BMC serial port for maintenance purposes, if it supports the VT100 protocol, in crash cart scenarios. Is it possible to do something like this by using the server?s PS/2 keyboard port and VGA monitor port? So, essentially a KVM without the ?M?? Is there some obvious constraint that I?ve missed? Kind regards, Andrew Sent from my mobile phone From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Sep 6 12:15:24 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 13:15:24 -0400 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: <1a36d750-e997-21ab-1a35-bf6167b71eae@gmail.com> References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1571B7D2-158C-4499-9709-AD59A8A28F04@comcast.net> <9cbf089a-bfdf-98ff-4162-12fd4d23d610@bitsavers.org> <1a36d750-e997-21ab-1a35-bf6167b71eae@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5E97CF65-4B59-48D1-9765-91E6215026F0@comcast.net> > On Sep 6, 2018, at 1:09 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: > > On 09/06/2018 12:54 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 9/6/18 9:48 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>> VT50 seems like it was someone's mistake -- 12 lines, what were they thinking? >> > Mostly about screen memory which back then was small and not cheap. True. Did the VT05 use core memory for that? I vaguely remember it did. Still, it was strange to go backward from 20 x 72 (VT05) to 12 x 80 (VT50). While the VT05 isn't all that well known, it probably deserves recognition as the most interesting looking DEC terminal. paul From carlojpisani at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 12:15:40 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 19:15:40 +0200 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: <1a36d750-e997-21ab-1a35-bf6167b71eae@gmail.com> References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1571B7D2-158C-4499-9709-AD59A8A28F04@comcast.net> <9cbf089a-bfdf-98ff-4162-12fd4d23d610@bitsavers.org> <1a36d750-e997-21ab-1a35-bf6167b71eae@gmail.com> Message-ID: I am building my own VT100 terminal (FPGA project), and it will be laptop-shape :P here I own a Digital VT220, it's a unit with its custom keyboard, with special keys, the output of the unit is VGA, and it has two serial ports with a db25 connector Il giorno gio 6 set 2018 alle ore 19:09 allison via cctalk ha scritto: > > On 09/06/2018 12:54 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 9/6/18 9:48 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> VT50 seems like it was someone's mistake -- 12 lines, what were they thinking? > > > Mostly about screen memory which back then was small and not cheap. > > > Allison From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 6 12:29:13 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 10:29:13 -0700 Subject: VT100 emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/6/18 10:10 AM, Andrew Nesbit via cctalk wrote: > Second, does there exist anything like a ?VT100 operating system?, that emulates the VT100 directly on the bare metal of the machine? In this case you?d use the external serial port to connect to the target machine. > > One example use case I have in mind here is connecting a serial cable to a server?s BMC serial port for maintenance purposes, if it supports the VT100 protocol, in crash cart scenarios. Is it possible to do something like this by using the server?s PS/2 keyboard port and VGA monitor port? So, essentially a KVM without the ?M?? Is there some obvious constraint that I?ve missed? > Really late serial terminal designs are essentially that, x86 cpu and chipset running a dedicated program from rom. Spare Time Gizmos built a pcb that was a VT100. http://sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/VT.htm If you REALLY want VT100 accuracy, put MAME on a RTOS emulating the VT100 I had given some thought over the last day or two about making a really tiny video terminal. A while ago, I had bought a couple of tablet ARM SOC LCD notebooks to try doing that. From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 13:11:08 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 12:11:08 -0600 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 09/06/2018 09:37 AM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > cause it's the simples, I guess > The VT100 was quite complicated compared to contemporary terminals at the time of its introduction. On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 10:22 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I used to naively think that the VT100 was the lowest end Video Terminal. > Then I subsequently saw references to VT50 and VT52. So now I have no clue. > If you think those were crude, take a look at the VT05, DEC's first standalone serial video terminal. From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu Sep 6 13:53:11 2018 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 18:53:11 +0000 Subject: VT100's Message-ID: Zane, are you talking about the VT100 specifically, or the whole VT1xx line? My gut feeling is that the VT100 was at most 20% of the production in the whole VT1xx line. The internal expandability of the VT100 was a cool idea, but overall sales of VT101, VT102, VT131, and VT132 have to dwarf the original VT100. Then there's the VT103 and VT180 which are more than just terminals but still in the family. I should go through my old pictures from the 1990's. At one point I had an entire garage filled with hundreds of VT1xx's. Tim N3QE From carlojpisani at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 14:14:40 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 21:14:40 +0200 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: > > cause it's the simplest, I guess > The VT100 was quite complicated compared to contemporary terminals at the > time of its introduction. why do you say that? a vt100 terminal requires only a text VDU (video display unit) with hw-scrolling support, and a piece of software to support the VT100 protocol (escape-codes decoded into action for the VDU). in fact, my Digital VT200 comes with an ASIC chip for the VDU, while the software side runs on an Intel 8051 MPU that directly interfaces the keyboard, the VDU, and the serial line this doesn't look complex From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Sep 6 14:16:47 2018 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 19:16:47 +0000 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Sep 6, 2018, at 10:34 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > ... > Personally I prefer the VT420?s, though I?d love a VT340/340+ or VT525. I have more desire to own systems to play on than I have space or time. Addressing the former, I have to say my favorite VT-100-alike is a Rainbow. One box (plus monitor plus the dreaded LK-201), three functions in the collection: VT-100 emulation (not perfect but not bad), CPM-80/86 (is that one or two functions?), MS-DOS 3.11b. Having a Rainbow has pretty much forestalled any desire to get a ?real? VT-100 for me. FWIW, mine is reasonably well-equipped, with the graphics card (and ReGIS for graphics terminal emulation if I run kermit) and a VR-241 color monitor. - Mark From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Sep 6 14:28:43 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 15:28:43 -0400 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: > On Sep 6, 2018, at 3:14 PM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > >>> cause it's the simplest, I guess >> The VT100 was quite complicated compared to contemporary terminals at the >> time of its introduction. > > why do you say that? > a vt100 terminal requires only a text VDU (video display unit) with > hw-scrolling support, and a piece of software to support the VT100 > protocol (escape-codes decoded into action for the VDU). > > in fact, my Digital VT200 comes with an ASIC chip for the VDU, while > the software side runs on an Intel 8051 MPU that directly interfaces > the keyboard, the VDU, and the serial line > > this doesn't look complex The work of a VT100 is quite a lot more complex than that of a VT52 (many more screen operations, and more complex control sequence parsing). With the hardware technology available at the time, it was a pretty tough job. Does the VT100 have a microprocessor? It may predate those. In hardwired 7400 series logic, it isn't an easy job. The VT1xx series successors did a number of things: eliminate expansion to simplify things, offer both basic (VT101) and extended (VT102) options in separate designs optimized for the task, and use newer designs to take advantage of the rapid evolution of available silicon. The VT2xx series did the same thing yet again. So the successors of the VT100 are less complex (smaller boards with less stuff), less expensive, and/or more capable (VT220 for example). Similarly, going in the opposite direction, a VT05 does far less than a VT100 with much more hardware, because the individual components were less capable. paul From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 14:42:50 2018 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 19:42:50 +0000 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: <1571B7D2-158C-4499-9709-AD59A8A28F04@comcast.net> References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1571B7D2-158C-4499-9709-AD59A8A28F04@comcast.net> Message-ID: > 2. It was the first DEC terminal with a detachable keyboard (not counting the GT-40) and if you needed an extension cord, you could just get a headphone cord at Radio Shack. The VT27 preceded the VT100, being a VT52 with a detachable keyboard - but there is a good possibility few to none actually shipped. It shows up in some of the DECdirectories (as do a lot of oddball VTs). -- Will From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Sep 6 14:49:53 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 15:49:53 -0400 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1571B7D2-158C-4499-9709-AD59A8A28F04@comcast.net> Message-ID: <580CA220-B3EB-475D-A03D-63A8730EF26F@comcast.net> > On Sep 6, 2018, at 3:42 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > >> 2. It was the first DEC terminal with a detachable keyboard (not counting the GT-40) and if you needed an extension cord, you could just get a headphone cord at Radio Shack. > > The VT27 preceded the VT100, being a VT52 with a detachable keyboard - > but there is a good possibility few to none actually shipped. It shows > up in some of the DECdirectories (as do a lot of oddball VTs). For oddball VTs, there is the VT71/t (and its nearly identical twin the VT72) which is an LSI-11 based full file text editing terminal for the Typeset-11 product line. Also the VT20, the predecessor of that one (perhaps a prototype -- I don't know how many shipped). That uses an 11/05 as the engine, which drives two independent displays in VT05 cabinets. I've only seen it once, in the Typeset-11 development lab, tucked in a corner (not running). BTW, the VT71 is an example of a MOP booted device, loaded via an async serial line. paul From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 6 14:59:08 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 12:59:08 -0700 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 9/6/18 12:28 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > Does the VT100 have a microprocessor? Yes, an 8080, which sets the time frame for when it was developed. Later models used a 8085 The biggest hardware innovation was smooth vertical scrolling, and switching between 80 and 132 columns. I remembered wondering if they got the idea from a letter to the editor in either Byte or Dr. Dobbs where someone wondered why video terminals scrolled a whole character at a time. I've never liked the feature, because when you look away from the screen the room looks like it's moving downward. Maybe that's why other company's terminals let you set the smooth scroll rate. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 6 15:06:06 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 13:06:06 -0700 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1571B7D2-158C-4499-9709-AD59A8A28F04@comcast.net> Message-ID: <709b704d-87a3-1338-33f2-3accbcb7c5c6@bitsavers.org> On 9/6/18 12:42 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > It shows up in some of the DECdirectories (as do a lot of oddball VTs). > Like the VT62 'TRAX' terminal. DEC does a 3270 forms terminal, in it's own special way. or the VT110 DEC Distributed Plant Management multi-drop terminal. Those were fun to find documentation for.. From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Sep 6 15:20:47 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 16:20:47 -0400 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: <709b704d-87a3-1338-33f2-3accbcb7c5c6@bitsavers.org> References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1571B7D2-158C-4499-9709-AD59A8A28F04@comcast.net> <709b704d-87a3-1338-33f2-3accbcb7c5c6@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <9747F237-971D-465E-85BA-43046F2AB715@comcast.net> > On Sep 6, 2018, at 4:06 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 9/6/18 12:42 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: >> It shows up in some of the DECdirectories (as do a lot of oddball VTs). >> > > Like the VT62 'TRAX' terminal. I know that one did get built, though probably not shipped much since TRAX was dead on arrival. But its close relative, the VT61/t, did ship in significant numbers for Typeset-11 as the terminal for classified advertising entry and low end text entry. It looks like a VT52 on the outside, but inside are a whole pile of boards, all single-sided etch with many hundreds of jumpers to compensate for not being two-sided. Not cheap, presumably, but still cheaper than the VT71 with its LSI-11 and (character-mode) display processor, very roughly a text-only GT40. paul From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 15:22:31 2018 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 16:22:31 -0400 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: <9747F237-971D-465E-85BA-43046F2AB715@comcast.net> References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1571B7D2-158C-4499-9709-AD59A8A28F04@comcast.net> <709b704d-87a3-1338-33f2-3accbcb7c5c6@bitsavers.org> <9747F237-971D-465E-85BA-43046F2AB715@comcast.net> Message-ID: > I know that one did get built, I had a VT62 a year or two ago. I know of a few VT72s up north (I have seen them). -- Will From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Sep 6 15:32:24 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 16:32:24 -0400 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1571B7D2-158C-4499-9709-AD59A8A28F04@comcast.net> <709b704d-87a3-1338-33f2-3accbcb7c5c6@bitsavers.org> <9747F237-971D-465E-85BA-43046F2AB715@comcast.net> Message-ID: <74E1905C-B9B8-42D2-8B74-CDB56976D84C@comcast.net> > On Sep 6, 2018, at 4:22 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > >> I know that one did get built, > > I had a VT62 a year or two ago. > > I know of a few VT72s up north (I have seen them). Do you know if anyone has software for them? It was bundled with Typeset-11 (TMS-11) and also with the VMS typesetting product that came somewhat later (DECset? VAXset? I forgot the name). paul From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 15:40:11 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 14:40:11 -0600 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 1:14 PM, Carlo Pisani wrote: > > > cause it's the simplest, I guess > > The VT100 was quite complicated compared to contemporary terminals at the > > time of its introduction. > > why do you say that? > a vt100 terminal requires only a text VDU (video display unit) with > hw-scrolling support, and a piece of software to support the VT100 > protocol (escape-codes decoded into action for the VDU). > > in fact, my Digital VT200 comes with an ASIC chip for the VDU, while > the software side runs on an Intel 8051 MPU that directly interfaces > the keyboard, the VDU, and the serial line > > this doesn't look complex > Not complex by today's standards, no. Compare the VT100 circuitry to the circuitry of contemporary terminals (1978). Compare the VT100 "programming information" to that for contemporary terminals. There might have been some other terminals that complex, but it was way more complex than common terminals of the day. From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Sep 6 16:55:09 2018 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2018 22:55:09 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <01QWZ3FBA2UE001B6C@beyondthepale.ie> Zane Healy wrote: > > Why is the VT100 so popular? > It beats me! Compared to many of the others available at the time, it seemed to me to be: 1. expensive 2. standardised 3. well designed (the protocol, not the physical implementation) 4. complex 5. slow 6. failure prone (keyboard connector/keys, vertical linearity, power switch) 7. fragile (in a student environment anyway) 8. difficult to emulate properly (particularly if whoever was writing the emulator didn't read the manual or the standard which it appears to me was most of them) 9. hard on the ears (that keyboard beep really got on my nerves) 10. ugly I can't see how any of the above would make it popular except maybe number 2 and 3 but I can't imagine that the average VT100 buyer researched the protocol in detail before purchase. If you bought a bought a machine from DEC, you probably needed DEC terminals or clones of them to get the best from it. However, the same probably applied to other manufacturers. I think a huge proportion of other equipment developers who specified a VT100 to connect to their equipment needed it to do little more than cope with a very basic ASCII character set plus carriage return and line feed. It may have helped that there was an associated ANSI standard but like the terminal emulator writers, I can't believe than many of them looked at it. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 6 17:20:57 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 15:20:57 -0700 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: <01QWZ3FBA2UE001B6C@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01QWZ3FBA2UE001B6C@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On 9/6/18 2:55 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > If you bought a bought a machine from DEC, you probably needed DEC terminals > or clones of them to get the best from it. However, the same probably applied > to other manufacturers. DEC's keyboard editors didn't talk anything other than VT52 or VT100 protocols and you needed their keypad for KED to work. Things like Curses and Termcap weren't a concept people groked at the time. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 17:36:53 2018 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 18:36:53 -0400 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: <01QWZ3FBA2UE001B6C@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01QWZ3FBA2UE001B6C@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: > Compared to many of the others available at the time, it seemed to me to be: > > 1. expensive Keep in mind that this is largely irrelevant. Terminals were often used as bargaining chips when large systems were purchased. Salesmen could "throw in" some number of terminals with a system, in order to make a sale. If a business was being hard-nosed about the sale of potential large VAX system, the salesmen could perhaps "sweeten" the deal with ten or twenty bonus VT100s, free. All the profit was in the CPUs, or more importantly, in the disk and tape farms (or to be really fair about this, the service). -- Will From steven at malikoff.com Thu Sep 6 18:24:09 2018 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 09:24:09 +1000 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: References: <01QWZ3FBA2UE001B6C@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: Will said >> Compared to many of the others available at the time, it seemed to me to be: >> >> 1. expensive > > Keep in mind that this is largely irrelevant. Terminals were often > used as bargaining chips when large systems were purchased. Salesmen > could "throw in" some number of terminals with a system, in order to > make a sale. If a business was being hard-nosed about the sale of > potential large VAX system, the salesmen could perhaps "sweeten" the > deal with ten or twenty bonus VT100s, free. All the profit was in the > CPUs, or more importantly, in the disk and tape farms (or to be really > fair about this, the service). Along that line, here is a page from a DEC sales catalog offering VT52's with "It's cheaper by the 4-pack": http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/500/VT52_4-pack.jpg Steve From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 18:35:18 2018 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 19:35:18 -0400 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: References: <01QWZ3FBA2UE001B6C@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: My recollections, having worked for Stockebra in the comm group when he started the 50. These are all recollections, from my time working at DEC, no looking at history books, no interweb tube alta vista quesries. 50 was a quite brilliant limited capability terminal, that could replace the OEM'd VTs that were are at the time. It was supposed to offer a thermal printer iirc, but that got pushed to 52. 52 was a reengineered/recpacked more easily manufactured unit. Both were relative light compared to the other bulky ones that were more sleek and lots heavier. WE could sling a 50/52 around from lab to lab with TTY connections, RS232 connections, and they just worked when we hooked them up. We used a 52 as the base for the VT78 - better psu in the 52 is what I recall for that decision. The 100 models were - at the time - like something out of scifi, and something like the Heath product. Follow on models were even more scifi and fantastic. So, a little geezing a tiny bit of tech, and just anecdotal rememberance. I like the 220/240 models me self. bb On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 7:24 PM Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > > Will said > >> Compared to many of the others available at the time, it seemed to me to be: > >> > >> 1. expensive > > > > Keep in mind that this is largely irrelevant. Terminals were often > > used as bargaining chips when large systems were purchased. Salesmen > > could "throw in" some number of terminals with a system, in order to > > make a sale. If a business was being hard-nosed about the sale of > > potential large VAX system, the salesmen could perhaps "sweeten" the > > deal with ten or twenty bonus VT100s, free. All the profit was in the > > CPUs, or more importantly, in the disk and tape farms (or to be really > > fair about this, the service). > > > Along that line, here is a page from a DEC sales catalog offering VT52's with "It's cheaper by the 4-pack": > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/500/VT52_4-pack.jpg > > Steve > From guykd at optusnet.com.au Thu Sep 6 18:47:20 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2018 09:47:20 +1000 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: <125BD8A3-70C1-4AAF-9E06-FB94E8D31160@shiresoft.com> References: <507b2beb-5c67-e92a-a3cb-ed91353caa86@sydex.com> <507b2beb-5c67-e92a-a3cb-ed91353caa86@sydex.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20180907094720.0109f738@mail.optusnet.com.au> Heh, another Guy. Who likes short keyboards, same as me. I refuse to use anything but 10keyless keyboards, since I object to the extra distance between mouse at right and the alpha key area. I never use the numeric pad if it's there. Guy At 09:28 AM 6/09/2018 -0700, you wrote: >My biggest complaint with DEC terminals (and clones) that came after the VT100 >(such as the VT220/VT320/etc) is that the terminals are nice and small but the >keyboards are *huge* (almost twice the width of the terminal itself). > >I like having a keyboard that matches the size of the terminal and the VT100 is >along those lines. > >It is also the same complaint that I have with IBM 3178/9 terminals (e.g. connect >to IBM 370 mainframes), where the terminal is relatively small but the keyboard is >significantly wider (being a derivative of the IBM PC/AT keyboard) and IMHO >would have been far better if IBM had left off the number pad. > >TTFN - Guy From rick at rickmurphy.net Thu Sep 6 19:49:05 2018 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 20:49:05 -0400 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: <5E97CF65-4B59-48D1-9765-91E6215026F0@comcast.net> References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1571B7D2-158C-4499-9709-AD59A8A28F04@comcast.net> <9cbf089a-bfdf-98ff-4162-12fd4d23d610@bitsavers.org> <1a36d750-e997-21ab-1a35-bf6167b71eae@gmail.com> <5E97CF65-4B59-48D1-9765-91E6215026F0@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 9/6/2018 1:15 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > On Sep 6, 2018, at 1:09 PM, allison via cctalk > wrote: >> Mostly about screen memory which back then was small and not cheap. > True. Did the VT05 use core memory for that? I vaguely remember it did. The VT05 used a shift register bank for the screen memory. This caused delays when scrolling as the content of the shift register had to be basically shifted up, thus requiring fill characters after every linefeed. Still, one of the most gorgeous video terminals ever. :) ??? -Rick From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 20:30:50 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 18:30:50 -0700 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 8:34 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > Personally I prefer the VT420?s, though I?d love a VT340/340+ or VT525. > If you really want color, sure a VT525 works for that. But getting a crisp display on an LCD monitor might take some trial and error before you find one with acceptable results. Might have better results with a CRT after some trial and error. If you want crisp text and are fine with a monochrome display, a VT520 might be a better option. But then of course you have to find one that still has a CRT that hasn't been burned from years of use. Personally I use my VT520 over my VT525 if I have to choose which one to pull out and set up. From useddec at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 23:24:35 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 23:24:35 -0500 Subject: VCFMW DEC VTs, LAs In-Reply-To: References: <2801DDC7-69CC-4225-B493-6AEC23E8E4BE@661.org> Message-ID: Hi Jonathan, That's a nice list. Can you call me some late afternoon or night? Thanks, Paul 217 766 7690 On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 9:04 AM, systems_glitch via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Definitely interested in a VT5x or VT78 terminal, potentially a real VT100 > as well (currently have a C.Itoh CIT-101). > > Thanks, > Jonathan > > On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 9:22 AM Marc Howard via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > Never mind. I saw the DEC VT in the subject line and skipped over the > > VCFMW. > > > > Maec > > > > On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 5:39 AM Marc Howard wrote: > > > > > Bring where? The Silicon Valley swap meet this Saturday? > > > > > > I'd be interested in VT-52 parts or a VT-100. > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 5:33 AM David Griffith via cctalk < > > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > >> On September 5, 2018 8:55:45 PM PDT, Paul Anderson via cctalk < > > >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > >> >Is anyone interested in any DEC VT50, VT52(ONE WITH PRINTER), VT78, > > >> >any of the VT100 family, or any other video terminals or monitors or > > >> >parts? > > >> > > > >> >LA35, LA36, LA120, any other printer or parts? > > >> > > > >> >Anything else? If asked, I will try to bring. > > >> > > > >> >Thanks, Paul > > >> > > >> I'm looking for a "1" key and a "data" key for an LA-12 > "Correspondent" > > >> -- > > >> David Griffith > > >> dave at 661.org > > >> > > > > > > From nf6x at nf6x.net Fri Sep 7 00:38:19 2018 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2018 22:38:19 -0700 Subject: Oddball Terminals (Was: Re: VT100's) In-Reply-To: <580CA220-B3EB-475D-A03D-63A8730EF26F@comcast.net> References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1571B7D2-158C-4499-9709-AD59A8A28F04@comcast.net> <580CA220-B3EB-475D-A03D-63A8730EF26F@comcast.net> Message-ID: A long time ago, I had the incomplete remnants of an oddball terminal which I retrieved from a junk pile at a small, obscure school in Pasadena. I'll try to describe it as best I can, based on old memory. I could have sworn that it had a dataplate label identifying it as a DEC VT02, but that could be way off the mark. It was built around a Tektronix vector storage display, oriented in portrait mode. It had quite a bit of screen burn from its long life displaying text. I don't recall the model number of the display, but I might recognize one if I saw it. It was quite long, making the whole terminal quite long. It had X, Y and Z BNC inputs, and it had a neat test mode that drew a spiral on the screen. The display sat on top of a long chassis with a keyboard at one end, a small Flip Chip backplane around the middle, and a power supply (probably linear, IIRC) at the rear end. I don't think that the Flip Chip boards were still in it when I got it, but it came along with a small box of spare Flip Chips. After setting the big Tektronix display on top of the lower chassis, there was a long U-shaped sheet metal cover that sat over the top and covered the display, making it look somewhat like a single device rather than a stack of two things. The lower chassis and the top cover were painted approximately white as I recall. I never did anything interesting with the display other than occasionally driving it with signal generators, and I got rid of the whole pile a long, long time ago. Does that old beast sound remotely familiar to anybody here? How hard should I kick myself for not keeping it? -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Sep 7 07:46:23 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 08:46:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VT100's Message-ID: <20180907124623.8FCAC18C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning > inside are a whole pile of boards, all single-sided etch with many > hundreds of jumpers to compensate for not being two-sided. Not cheap, > presumably If memory serves, didn't the VT52 also have single-sided boards with a whole bunch of jumper wires? Something relatively common, anyway, if not the VT52 - I clearly remember the masses of jumpers on something, and Tech Sq had scads of VT52's (to the point where VT100's were not that common when they did show up, we were already full up). Presumably, with automated placing machines, the jumpers were cheaper than a large double-sided board (the VT52's boards were huge)? I'm assuming _someone_ did the math (including the amortization of the placing machine, which would take longer to complete such a board). > From: Al Kossow > The biggest hardware innovation was smooth vertical scrolling > ... > I've never liked the feature IIRC, we generally turned it off because it couldn't keep up at 9600 baud. Noel From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 08:33:24 2018 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 14:33:24 +0100 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1571B7D2-158C-4499-9709-AD59A8A28F04@comcast.net> <9cbf089a-bfdf-98ff-4162-12fd4d23d610@bitsavers.org> <1a36d750-e997-21ab-1a35-bf6167b71eae@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 6:15 PM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > I am building my own VT100 terminal (FPGA project), and it will be > laptop-shape :P Trend Data System (the company that made some very nice paper tape readers made/sold such a terminal many years ago. There were at least 2 versions, one did 5 bit ('Baudot', 'Murray' (although it's actually neither), ITA2..), the other was a VT100-a-like. The display was LCD which could be folded over the keyboard when not in use. It needed an external 12V supply (I don't think there was ever an internal battery version). It was very close to a real VT100, even the setup options were identical. -tony From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Sep 7 08:44:52 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 09:44:52 -0400 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: <20180907124623.8FCAC18C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180907124623.8FCAC18C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <05E78481-2F2D-40D0-A140-AB082B151120@comcast.net> > On Sep 7, 2018, at 8:46 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Paul Koning > >> inside are a whole pile of boards, all single-sided etch with many >> hundreds of jumpers to compensate for not being two-sided. Not cheap, >> presumably > > If memory serves, didn't the VT52 also have single-sided boards with a whole > bunch of jumper wires? Something relatively common, anyway, if not the VT52 - > I clearly remember the masses of jumpers on something, and Tech Sq had scads > of VT52's (to the point where VT100's were not that common when they did show > up, we were already full up). > > Presumably, with automated placing machines, the jumpers were cheaper than a > large double-sided board (the VT52's boards were huge)? I'm assuming _someone_ > did the math (including the amortization of the placing machine, which would > take longer to complete such a board). I don't remember the VT52 board, but you may well be right. The obvious advantage of single sided boards is that it avoids plated through holes. I once did a two-sided board without plated through holes (at the U of Illinois -- the board shop didn't know how) but that wasn't reasonable technology for serious work because you have to solder both sides then. The VT61/t stood out to me because it has so much stuff in it. I forgot how many boards, but it was way more than the VT52 (which has just one, I think). No surprise, the VT61/t has local editing / forms processing capability with block mode transmission both ways. In one Typeset-11 application you'd edit a screen full of text locally and send it back when done; in the other you'd fill in a classified ad order form and send that. The VT71 also had local text editing but there it's a whole file, with local scrolling and search, line wrap, and macros ("User Defined Keys", UDK, tied to a row of blank keycaps that the customer would label). paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Sep 7 08:47:20 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 09:47:20 -0400 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1571B7D2-158C-4499-9709-AD59A8A28F04@comcast.net> <9cbf089a-bfdf-98ff-4162-12fd4d23d610@bitsavers.org> <1a36d750-e997-21ab-1a35-bf6167b71eae@gmail.com> <5E97CF65-4B59-48D1-9765-91E6215026F0@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Sep 6, 2018, at 8:49 PM, Rick Murphy via cctalk wrote: > > On 9/6/2018 1:15 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> On Sep 6, 2018, at 1:09 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: >>> Mostly about screen memory which back then was small and not cheap. >> True. Did the VT05 use core memory for that? I vaguely remember it did. > > The VT05 used a shift register bank for the screen memory. This caused delays when scrolling as the content of the shift register had to be basically shifted up, thus requiring fill characters after every linefeed. Oh yes, VT05 fill, RSTS supports that (or at least in earlier versions). That's fill after LF rather than the fill after CR needed by older hard-copy terminals (including the much despised LA30s). VT05 was 2400 baud max, if I remember right. 9600 was mind-boggling when I first saw it. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Sep 7 08:48:43 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 09:48:43 -0400 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: References: <01QWZ3FBA2UE001B6C@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: > On Sep 6, 2018, at 6:20 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 9/6/18 2:55 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > >> If you bought a bought a machine from DEC, you probably needed DEC terminals >> or clones of them to get the best from it. However, the same probably applied >> to other manufacturers. > > DEC's keyboard editors didn't talk anything other than VT52 or VT100 protocols > and you needed their keypad for KED to work. > > Things like Curses and Termcap weren't a concept people groked at the time. True. DEC's approach was standards: as soon as the idea appeared, adopt it (ANSI escapes) throughout the product line, then all the software has only a single API it needs to understand. paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Sep 7 10:09:38 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 11:09:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: LSSM - Large IBM haul Message-ID: <20180907150938.5853018C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Anders Nelson > Their latest comments on Facebook mention they're about halfway there. Yeah, but I was wanting to know how things had gone since that posting (although I haven't looked to see if there's any update). As of last night, they'd made significant progress past what was in the posting, but still had a ways to go. I've just sent in a chunk, so I think I have the standing to appeal for others to help, too! :-) It's a really worthwhile cause - there aren't that many System/370's left in the world! (I know, I know, not as cool at the /360, but still important.) Here's the URL again: https://www.facebook.com/503408869821526/posts/1084448565050884/ with the details of the appeal. (You don't need to be a FaceAche member to read it; I'm not, and it came up OK for me.) Noel From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Sep 7 10:41:23 2018 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 08:41:23 -0700 Subject: Oddball Terminals (Was: Re: VT100's) In-Reply-To: References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1571B7D2-158C-4499-9709-AD59A8A28F04@comcast.net> <580CA220-B3EB-475D-A03D-63A8730EF26F@comcast.net> Message-ID: <48ef0198-4f34-96c0-afd6-3b5d1b40d8dc@sbcglobal.net> On 9/6/2018 10:38 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > A long time ago, I had the incomplete remnants of an oddball terminal which I retrieved from a junk pile at a small, obscure school in Pasadena. I'll try to describe it as best I can, based on old memory. I could have sworn that it had a dataplate label identifying it as a DEC VT02, but that could be way off the mark. > > It was built around a Tektronix vector storage display, oriented in portrait mode. It had quite a bit of screen burn from its long life displaying text. I don't recall the model number of the display, but I might recognize one if I saw it. It was quite long, making the whole terminal quite long. It had X, Y and Z BNC inputs, and it had a neat test mode that drew a spiral on the screen. > > The display sat on top of a long chassis with a keyboard at one end, a small Flip Chip backplane around the middle, and a power supply (probably linear, IIRC) at the rear end. I don't think that the Flip Chip boards were still in it when I got it, but it came along with a small box of spare Flip Chips. > > After setting the big Tektronix display on top of the lower chassis, there was a long U-shaped sheet metal cover that sat over the top and covered the display, making it look somewhat like a single device rather than a stack of two things. The lower chassis and the top cover were painted approximately white as I recall. > > I never did anything interesting with the display other than occasionally driving it with signal generators, and I got rid of the whole pile a long, long time ago. > > Does that old beast sound remotely familiar to anybody here? How hard should I kick myself for not keeping it? > The display was most likely a Tektronix 611. DEC used them with their point plot display systems like the VC8E. Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From turing at shaw.ca Fri Sep 7 10:59:48 2018 From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 09:59:48 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Oddball Terminals (Was: Re: VT100's) In-Reply-To: <48ef0198-4f34-96c0-afd6-3b5d1b40d8dc@sbcglobal.net> References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1571B7D2-158C-4499-9709-AD59A8A28F04@comcast.net> <580CA220-B3EB-475D-A03D-63A8730EF26F@comcast.net> <48ef0198-4f34-96c0-afd6-3b5d1b40d8dc@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <351078099.519105652.1536335988337.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Speaking of oddball terminals, does anyone have details on Cybernex APL-100 terminals? I acquired one a couple of years ago and have had no luck locating documentation for them. From: "cctalk" To: "cctalk" Sent: Friday, September 7, 2018 8:41:23 AM Subject: Re: Oddball Terminals (Was: Re: VT100's) On 9/6/2018 10:38 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > A long time ago, I had the incomplete remnants of an oddball terminal which I retrieved from a junk pile at a small, obscure school in Pasadena. I'll try to describe it as best I can, based on old memory. I could have sworn that it had a dataplate label identifying it as a DEC VT02, but that could be way off the mark. > > It was built around a Tektronix vector storage display, oriented in portrait mode. It had quite a bit of screen burn from its long life displaying text. I don't recall the model number of the display, but I might recognize one if I saw it. It was quite long, making the whole terminal quite long. It had X, Y and Z BNC inputs, and it had a neat test mode that drew a spiral on the screen. > > The display sat on top of a long chassis with a keyboard at one end, a small Flip Chip backplane around the middle, and a power supply (probably linear, IIRC) at the rear end. I don't think that the Flip Chip boards were still in it when I got it, but it came along with a small box of spare Flip Chips. > > After setting the big Tektronix display on top of the lower chassis, there was a long U-shaped sheet metal cover that sat over the top and covered the display, making it look somewhat like a single device rather than a stack of two things. The lower chassis and the top cover were painted approximately white as I recall. > > I never did anything interesting with the display other than occasionally driving it with signal generators, and I got rid of the whole pile a long, long time ago. > > Does that old beast sound remotely familiar to anybody here? How hard should I kick myself for not keeping it? > The display was most likely a Tektronix 611. DEC used them with their point plot display systems like the VC8E. Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From nf6x at nf6x.net Fri Sep 7 11:09:24 2018 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 09:09:24 -0700 Subject: Oddball Terminals (Was: Re: VT100's) In-Reply-To: <48ef0198-4f34-96c0-afd6-3b5d1b40d8dc@sbcglobal.net> References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1571B7D2-158C-4499-9709-AD59A8A28F04@comcast.net> <580CA220-B3EB-475D-A03D-63A8730EF26F@comcast.net> <48ef0198-4f34-96c0-afd6-3b5d1b40d8dc@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <642A7A6E-6316-41B1-9163-BE1F96418663@nf6x.net> > On Sep 7, 2018, at 8:41 AM, Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk wrote: > > The display was most likely a Tektronix 611. DEC used them with their point plot display systems like the VC8E. I am pretty sure that the display was a 611 in its vertical configuration: http://w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/611 The display was a fully enclosed standalone unit, not a bare chassis. It sat on top of the bottom chassis of the terminal and then had another cover fitted over it. It had screen burn which indicated its use as part of a text terminal, but I don't know if the character generation was originally performed in the bottom chassis or by external equipment. The small DEC wire wrap backplane in the bottom chassis didn't seem big enough to implement all of that with flip chips. Maybe the backplane was just used for keyboard interface, and character generation was done by equipment external to the terminal? -- Mark J. Blair http://www.nf6x.net/ From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 7 12:00:59 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 10:00:59 -0700 Subject: Oddball Terminals (Was: Re: VT100's) In-Reply-To: <642A7A6E-6316-41B1-9163-BE1F96418663@nf6x.net> References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1571B7D2-158C-4499-9709-AD59A8A28F04@comcast.net> <580CA220-B3EB-475D-A03D-63A8730EF26F@comcast.net> <48ef0198-4f34-96c0-afd6-3b5d1b40d8dc@sbcglobal.net> <642A7A6E-6316-41B1-9163-BE1F96418663@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <5e80a8d6-8c4c-af38-9c73-fe576c80c88c@bitsavers.org> On 9/7/18 9:09 AM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > The display was a fully enclosed standalone unit, not a bare chassis. It sat on top of the bottom chassis of the terminal and then had another cover fitted over it. > > It had screen burn which indicated its use as part of a text terminal, but I don't know if the character generation was originally performed in the bottom chassis or by external equipment. The small DEC wire wrap backplane in the bottom chassis didn't seem big enough to implement all of that with flip chips. Maybe the backplane was just used for keyboard interface, and character generation was done by equipment external to the terminal? > The VT02 was apparently a PDP-8 device https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc1185657/m2/1/high_res_d/6649931.pdf Thus the FY 1969 equipment increment was procured from DEC and consisted of one KAIO Processor, one PDP-8 Computer (4K memory), 4 VT02 Terminals, plus controllers, teleprinters, and cables for a total of $167,042. For FY 1970, the plan called for additional memory capability, disk packs, and additional inputting terminals for a total of $189,000. The only thing we have in the archive apparently are four proof negatives, unless the controller had a different name. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 7 12:05:49 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 10:05:49 -0700 Subject: Oddball Terminals (Was: Re: VT100's) In-Reply-To: <5e80a8d6-8c4c-af38-9c73-fe576c80c88c@bitsavers.org> References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1571B7D2-158C-4499-9709-AD59A8A28F04@comcast.net> <580CA220-B3EB-475D-A03D-63A8730EF26F@comcast.net> <48ef0198-4f34-96c0-afd6-3b5d1b40d8dc@sbcglobal.net> <642A7A6E-6316-41B1-9163-BE1F96418663@nf6x.net> <5e80a8d6-8c4c-af38-9c73-fe576c80c88c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 9/7/18 10:00 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > The VT02 was apparently a PDP-8 device > > https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc1185657/m2/1/high_res_d/6649931.pdf > This was hard to find, because web searches turn up hundreds of hits from some dufus that mistyped VT02 instead of VT52 in a linux terminal emulation package. From nf6x at nf6x.net Fri Sep 7 12:45:58 2018 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 10:45:58 -0700 Subject: Oddball Terminals (Was: Re: VT100's) In-Reply-To: References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1571B7D2-158C-4499-9709-AD59A8A28F04@comcast.net> <580CA220-B3EB-475D-A03D-63A8730EF26F@comcast.net> <48ef0198-4f34-96c0-afd6-3b5d1b40d8dc@sbcglobal.net> <642A7A6E-6316-41B1-9163-BE1F96418663@nf6x.net> <5e80a8d6-8c4c-af38-9c73-fe576c80c88c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <18E64312-2146-42D7-9193-D56C32E3F306@nf6x.net> Thanks for digging that up! I had never managed to google up any details before. -- Mark J. Blair http://www.nf6x.net From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 7 13:57:14 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 11:57:14 -0700 Subject: Oddball Terminals (Was: Re: VT100's) In-Reply-To: <18E64312-2146-42D7-9193-D56C32E3F306@nf6x.net> References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1571B7D2-158C-4499-9709-AD59A8A28F04@comcast.net> <580CA220-B3EB-475D-A03D-63A8730EF26F@comcast.net> <48ef0198-4f34-96c0-afd6-3b5d1b40d8dc@sbcglobal.net> <642A7A6E-6316-41B1-9163-BE1F96418663@nf6x.net> <5e80a8d6-8c4c-af38-9c73-fe576c80c88c@bitsavers.org> <18E64312-2146-42D7-9193-D56C32E3F306@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <42cc5cdf-ab65-e13d-6d85-6bb9a59903a8@bitsavers.org> I just put up some pictures of the vt02, 05, 20, and 71t under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal On 9/7/18 10:45 AM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > Thanks for digging that up! I had never managed to google up any details before. > > -- > Mark J. Blair > http://www.nf6x.net > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 7 14:00:22 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 12:00:22 -0700 Subject: Oddball Terminals (Was: Re: VT100's) In-Reply-To: <42cc5cdf-ab65-e13d-6d85-6bb9a59903a8@bitsavers.org> References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1571B7D2-158C-4499-9709-AD59A8A28F04@comcast.net> <580CA220-B3EB-475D-A03D-63A8730EF26F@comcast.net> <48ef0198-4f34-96c0-afd6-3b5d1b40d8dc@sbcglobal.net> <642A7A6E-6316-41B1-9163-BE1F96418663@nf6x.net> <5e80a8d6-8c4c-af38-9c73-fe576c80c88c@bitsavers.org> <18E64312-2146-42D7-9193-D56C32E3F306@nf6x.net> <42cc5cdf-ab65-e13d-6d85-6bb9a59903a8@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <7d24bff6-3b2d-5c03-e729-f44e0944bcb0@bitsavers.org> interesting.. the vt71t has inverted-T cursor keys On 9/7/18 11:57 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I just put up some pictures of the vt02, 05, 20, and 71t > under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Sep 7 14:02:19 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 15:02:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Oddball Terminals (Was: Re: VT100's) Message-ID: <20180907190219.53B5C18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Al Kossow > I just put up some pictures of the vt02, 05 Those useable for the CHWiki (with credit, of course)? Oddly enough, I just did the article on the VT05 about a week ago! Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Sep 7 14:17:26 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 15:17:26 -0400 Subject: Oddball Terminals (Was: Re: VT100's) In-Reply-To: <42cc5cdf-ab65-e13d-6d85-6bb9a59903a8@bitsavers.org> References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1571B7D2-158C-4499-9709-AD59A8A28F04@comcast.net> <580CA220-B3EB-475D-A03D-63A8730EF26F@comcast.net> <48ef0198-4f34-96c0-afd6-3b5d1b40d8dc@sbcglobal.net> <642A7A6E-6316-41B1-9163-BE1F96418663@nf6x.net> <5e80a8d6-8c4c-af38-9c73-fe576c80c88c@bitsavers.org> <18E64312-2146-42D7-9193-D56C32E3F306@nf6x.net> <42cc5cdf-ab65-e13d-6d85-6bb9a59903a8@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > On Sep 7, 2018, at 2:57 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > I just put up some pictures of the vt02, 05, 20, and 71t > under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal Nice, working photos of a VT20. I'd forgotten the oddball keys on the side. In the VT71 picture, you can see the UDKs -- the blank keycaps in the top row. Above them are handwritten labels on that piece of cardboard, indicating what each one does (regular and shifted, two macros per key). There are some obvious newspaper specific functions, like "Wire dir sports" or "head fit" (i.e., take the current story headline and report how wide it is, to see if it fits in the columns allowed for it). The VT72 document has a description of the display controller, so if VT71/72 software ever materializes that can be used to teach SIMH how to emulate the terminal. paul From nf6x at nf6x.net Fri Sep 7 14:55:00 2018 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 12:55:00 -0700 Subject: Oddball Terminals (Was: Re: VT100's) In-Reply-To: <42cc5cdf-ab65-e13d-6d85-6bb9a59903a8@bitsavers.org> References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1571B7D2-158C-4499-9709-AD59A8A28F04@comcast.net> <580CA220-B3EB-475D-A03D-63A8730EF26F@comcast.net> <48ef0198-4f34-96c0-afd6-3b5d1b40d8dc@sbcglobal.net> <642A7A6E-6316-41B1-9163-BE1F96418663@nf6x.net> <5e80a8d6-8c4c-af38-9c73-fe576c80c88c@bitsavers.org> <18E64312-2146-42D7-9193-D56C32E3F306@nf6x.net> <42cc5cdf-ab65-e13d-6d85-6bb9a59903a8@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <951E425F-C76F-488E-8BE0-AE2CAE4F170A@nf6x.net> That?s it! The terminal I had was definitely the one in this picture: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/vt02/vt02_1.jpg -- Mark J. Blair http://www.nf6x.net From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Sep 7 18:15:52 2018 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 16:15:52 -0700 Subject: Oddball Terminals (Was: Re: VT100's) In-Reply-To: <7d24bff6-3b2d-5c03-e729-f44e0944bcb0@bitsavers.org> References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1571B7D2-158C-4499-9709-AD59A8A28F04@comcast.net> <580CA220-B3EB-475D-A03D-63A8730EF26F@comcast.net> <48ef0198-4f34-96c0-afd6-3b5d1b40d8dc@sbcglobal.net> <642A7A6E-6316-41B1-9163-BE1F96418663@nf6x.net> <5e80a8d6-8c4c-af38-9c73-fe576c80c88c@bitsavers.org> <18E64312-2146-42D7-9193-D56C32E3F306@nf6x.net> <42cc5cdf-ab65-e13d-6d85-6bb9a59903a8@bitsavers.org> <7d24bff6-3b2d-5c03-e729-f44e0944bcb0@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sep 7, 2018, at 12:00, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > interesting.. the vt71t has inverted-T cursor keys And CAPS LOCK in the home row to the left of the A key. The VT220 made it w-i-d-e. Can we now fix the blame for the two of the three worst ideas in computer keyboard design on d|i|g|i|t|a|l? (#3 would be sending CONTROL to live in the spacebar row and I think maybe we need to blame IBM for that.) -Frank McConnell From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Sep 7 18:28:09 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 17:28:09 -0600 Subject: Oddball Terminals (Was: Re: VT100's) In-Reply-To: References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1571B7D2-158C-4499-9709-AD59A8A28F04@comcast.net> <580CA220-B3EB-475D-A03D-63A8730EF26F@comcast.net> <48ef0198-4f34-96c0-afd6-3b5d1b40d8dc@sbcglobal.net> <642A7A6E-6316-41B1-9163-BE1F96418663@nf6x.net> <5e80a8d6-8c4c-af38-9c73-fe576c80c88c@bitsavers.org> <18E64312-2146-42D7-9193-D56C32E3F306@nf6x.net> <42cc5cdf-ab65-e13d-6d85-6bb9a59903a8@bitsavers.org> <7d24bff6-3b2d-5c03-e729-f44e0944bcb0@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 5:16 PM Frank McConnell via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sep 7, 2018, at 12:00, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > interesting.. the vt71t has inverted-T cursor keys > > And CAPS LOCK in the home row to the left of the A key. The VT220 made it > w-i-d-e. Can we now fix the blame for the two of the three worst ideas in > computer keyboard design on d|i|g|i|t|a|l? (#3 would be sending CONTROL to > live in the spacebar row and I think maybe we need to blame IBM for that.) > Yes. I had an old DEC Rainbow... For years I used it as a terminal, but I hacked things to swap the CAPS LOCK and CONTROL keys. But the control key was still to the left of the CAPS LOCK key. It was the IBM PC keyboard that moved the control key below the Shift key. Most other terminals before then didn't do that :( Warner From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Sep 7 18:33:04 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 16:33:04 -0700 Subject: Oddball Terminals (Was: Re: VT100's) In-Reply-To: References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1571B7D2-158C-4499-9709-AD59A8A28F04@comcast.net> <580CA220-B3EB-475D-A03D-63A8730EF26F@comcast.net> <48ef0198-4f34-96c0-afd6-3b5d1b40d8dc@sbcglobal.net> <642A7A6E-6316-41B1-9163-BE1F96418663@nf6x.net> <5e80a8d6-8c4c-af38-9c73-fe576c80c88c@bitsavers.org> <18E64312-2146-42D7-9193-D56C32E3F306@nf6x.net> <42cc5cdf-ab65-e13d-6d85-6bb9a59903a8@bitsavers.org> <7d24bff6-3b2d-5c03-e729-f44e0944bcb0@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > On Sep 7, 2018, at 4:15 PM, Frank McConnell via cctalk wrote: > > On Sep 7, 2018, at 12:00, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> interesting.. the vt71t has inverted-T cursor keys > > And CAPS LOCK in the home row to the left of the A key. The VT220 made it w-i-d-e. Can we now fix the blame for the two of the three worst ideas in computer keyboard design on d|i|g|i|t|a|l? (#3 would be sending CONTROL to live in the spacebar row and I think maybe we need to blame IBM for that.) > No, there were terminals that had a (small) control key down near the space bar long before IBM did it with the PC. I can?t recall which at the moment (but I recall having to deal with them in the mid-to-late 70?s). I also looked at the keyboards on my Symbolics machines, and where I?d like to have the control key is the ?rubout? key. But given that there are no fewer than 5 ?shift? keys on the Symbolics keyboard (hyper, super, meta, control, shift?I can?t recall at the moment if symbol is also a ?shift? key), it makes a bit of sense to have them all near each other. ;-) TTFN - Guy From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Sep 7 18:35:32 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 17:35:32 -0600 Subject: Oddball Terminals (Was: Re: VT100's) In-Reply-To: References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1571B7D2-158C-4499-9709-AD59A8A28F04@comcast.net> <580CA220-B3EB-475D-A03D-63A8730EF26F@comcast.net> <48ef0198-4f34-96c0-afd6-3b5d1b40d8dc@sbcglobal.net> <642A7A6E-6316-41B1-9163-BE1F96418663@nf6x.net> <5e80a8d6-8c4c-af38-9c73-fe576c80c88c@bitsavers.org> <18E64312-2146-42D7-9193-D56C32E3F306@nf6x.net> <42cc5cdf-ab65-e13d-6d85-6bb9a59903a8@bitsavers.org> <7d24bff6-3b2d-5c03-e729-f44e0944bcb0@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 5:33 PM Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I also looked at the keyboards on my Symbolics machines, and where I?d > like to have the control key is the ?rubout? key. But given that there are > no fewer than 5 ?shift? keys on the Symbolics keyboard (hyper, super, meta, > control, shift?I can?t recall at the moment if symbol is also a ?shift? > key), it makes a bit of sense to have them all near each other. ;-) > I think you forgot the "coke bottle" key :) http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/S/space-cadet-keyboard.html Warner From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Sep 7 18:43:10 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 16:43:10 -0700 Subject: Oddball Terminals (Was: Re: VT100's) In-Reply-To: References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1571B7D2-158C-4499-9709-AD59A8A28F04@comcast.net> <580CA220-B3EB-475D-A03D-63A8730EF26F@comcast.net> <48ef0198-4f34-96c0-afd6-3b5d1b40d8dc@sbcglobal.net> <642A7A6E-6316-41B1-9163-BE1F96418663@nf6x.net> <5e80a8d6-8c4c-af38-9c73-fe576c80c88c@bitsavers.org> <18E64312-2146-42D7-9193-D56C32E3F306@nf6x.net> <42cc5cdf-ab65-e13d-6d85-6bb9a59903a8@bitsavers.org> <7d24bff6-3b2d-5c03-e729-f44e0944bcb0@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > On Sep 7, 2018, at 4:35 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 5:33 PM Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk > wrote: > I also looked at the keyboards on my Symbolics machines, and where I?d like to have the control key is the ?rubout? key. But given that there are no fewer than 5 ?shift? keys on the Symbolics keyboard (hyper, super, meta, control, shift?I can?t recall at the moment if symbol is also a ?shift? key), it makes a bit of sense to have them all near each other. ;-) > > I think you forgot the "coke bottle" key :) > > http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/S/space-cadet-keyboard.html Yea, I don?t have a space cadet keyboard. I have new and old Symbolics keyboards. The ?new? one is the one pictured on the referenced link. TTFN - Guy From sieler at allegro.com Fri Sep 7 19:09:53 2018 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 17:09:53 -0700 Subject: HP 260 Message-ID: Hi, I have an HP 260 that I'd like to find a new home for. I'm currently thinking of taking it to the ham radio / antique-computer swapmeet (ASVARO, held at Fry's Sunnyvale, CA, tomorrow morning). Thought I'd mention it here in case someone was interested in it. For those unfamiliar with it, it's small enough to fit in a Contico. https://www.facebook.com/hp260hp250preservationProject has a photo (in a cabinet with a disk drive) on the far left. www.hp260.net has some info about them. Stan (Cupertino, CA, USA) From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Sep 7 20:52:41 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2018 20:52:41 -0500 Subject: Oddball Terminals (Was: Re: VT100's) In-Reply-To: <951E425F-C76F-488E-8BE0-AE2CAE4F170A@nf6x.net> References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1571B7D2-158C-4499-9709-AD59A8A28F04@comcast.net> <580CA220-B3EB-475D-A03D-63A8730EF26F@comcast.net> <48ef0198-4f34-96c0-afd6-3b5d1b40d8dc@sbcglobal.net> <642A7A6E-6316-41B1-9163-BE1F96418663@nf6x.net> <5e80a8d6-8c4c-af38-9c73-fe576c80c88c@bitsavers.org> <18E64312-2146-42D7-9193-D56C32E3F306@nf6x.net> <42cc5cdf-ab65-e13d-6d85-6bb9a59903a8@bitsavers.org> <951E425F-C76F-488E-8BE0-AE2CAE4F170A@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <5B932B69.9040007@pico-systems.com> On 09/07/2018 02:55 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > That?s it! The terminal I had was definitely the one in this picture: > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/vt02/vt02_1.jpg > > The display is actually a Tektronix 611 direct-view storage tube. Jon From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Sep 7 21:16:35 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 22:16:35 -0400 Subject: HP 260 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <165b6f7772b-1ebb-8b30@webjas-vaa133.srv.aolmail.net> you need to plan a trip to grand canyon! ... odd enough I never saw one of these computers in az. ed# Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Friday, September 7, 2018 Stan Sieler via cctalk wrote: Hi, I have an HP 260 that I'd like to find a new home for. I'm currently thinking of taking it to the ham radio / antique-computer swapmeet (ASVARO, held at Fry's Sunnyvale, CA, tomorrow morning). Thought I'd mention it here in case someone was interested in it. For those unfamiliar with it, it's small enough to fit in a Contico. https://www.facebook.com/hp260hp250preservationProject has a photo (in a cabinet with a disk drive) on the far left. www.hp260.net has some info about them. Stan (Cupertino, CA, USA) From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Sep 7 21:27:16 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 22:27:16 -0400 Subject: Oddball Terminals (Was: Re: VT100's) In-Reply-To: <5B932B69.9040007@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <165b7013f04-1ebb-21bd@webjas-vae145.srv.aolmail.net> had a? tectronix? ?terminal like this? also? had a? slide out? drawer? with many? small gold? plated? cards? looked? like the? earliest? ? tecx? made? terminal? for graphics I had? ever? seen.? ?was? heavy? very heavy and very long? with? I still had? it...? it? was? ?back in the mid? 80s? I? sold? it. ? ed #?? ? ? In a message dated 9/7/2018 6:52:54 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? On 09/07/2018 02:55 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > That?s it! The terminal I had was definitely the one in this picture: > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/vt02/vt02_1.jpg > > The display is actually a Tektronix 611 direct-view storage tube. Jon From useddec at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 23:08:12 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 23:08:12 -0500 Subject: Teletype mod 40 PSU Message-ID: I have a teletype 40PSU101 I can drop off at VCFMW or mail, but is is a bit heavy. If you have any interest, please contact me off list. Thanks, Paul From useddec at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 23:10:47 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 23:10:47 -0500 Subject: PDP11/15 Message-ID: If anyone has serious interest in one, please contact mo off list.. I can bring it to VCFMW. Thanks, Paul From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 00:55:52 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 22:55:52 -0700 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1571B7D2-158C-4499-9709-AD59A8A28F04@comcast.net> <9cbf089a-bfdf-98ff-4162-12fd4d23d610@bitsavers.org> <1a36d750-e997-21ab-1a35-bf6167b71eae@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 6:33 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 6:15 PM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk > wrote: > > I am building my own VT100 terminal (FPGA project), and it will be > > laptop-shape :P > > Trend Data System (the company that made some very nice paper tape readers > made/sold such a terminal many years ago. There were at least 2 versions, > one > did 5 bit ('Baudot', 'Murray' (although it's actually neither), > ITA2..), the other was > a VT100-a-like. The display was LCD which could be folded over the keyboard > when not in use. It needed an external 12V supply (I don't think there was > ever an internal battery version). > > It was very close to a real VT100, even the setup options were identical. > > -tony > TI made a clamshell portable VT220-compatible terminal with an LCD screen, the Travelmate LT220. It's very nice, the LCD is high-contrast (but no backlight) and it even has a built in 2400bps modem. I believe it can run off of a battery as well. It's very handy. There's a picture of one near the bottom of this page: http://ummr.altervista.org/sistemi_x86.htm - Josh From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat Sep 8 03:05:33 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 10:05:33 +0200 (CEST) Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Sep 2018, Paul Koning wrote: > The work of a VT100 is quite a lot more complex than that of a VT52 > (many more screen operations, and more complex control sequence > parsing). With the hardware technology available at the time, it was a > pretty tough job. Does the VT100 have a microprocessor? It may predate > those. In hardwired 7400 series logic, it isn't an easy job. Yes, the V100 has an Intel 8080, the stripped-down V101 has an Intel 8085. Christian From lproven at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 07:52:52 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 14:52:52 +0200 Subject: Oddball Terminals (Was: Re: VT100's) In-Reply-To: <42cc5cdf-ab65-e13d-6d85-6bb9a59903a8@bitsavers.org> References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1571B7D2-158C-4499-9709-AD59A8A28F04@comcast.net> <580CA220-B3EB-475D-A03D-63A8730EF26F@comcast.net> <48ef0198-4f34-96c0-afd6-3b5d1b40d8dc@sbcglobal.net> <642A7A6E-6316-41B1-9163-BE1F96418663@nf6x.net> <5e80a8d6-8c4c-af38-9c73-fe576c80c88c@bitsavers.org> <18E64312-2146-42D7-9193-D56C32E3F306@nf6x.net> <42cc5cdf-ab65-e13d-6d85-6bb9a59903a8@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Sep 2018 at 21:08, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > I just put up some pictures of the vt02, 05, 20, and 71t > under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal Oddly, since others are commenting, this whole site is inaccessible for me in Prague, both yesterday and today. ? This site can?t be reached bitsavers.org took too long to respond. Search Google for bitsavers org pdf dec terminal ERR_CONNECTION_TIMED_OUT ? I wanna see the piccies! :'( -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Sat Sep 8 12:07:17 2018 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 18:07:17 +0100 Subject: Oddball Terminals (Was: Re: VT100's) In-Reply-To: References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1571B7D2-158C-4499-9709-AD59A8A28F04@comcast.net> <580CA220-B3EB-475D-A03D-63A8730EF26F@comcast.net> <48ef0198-4f34-96c0-afd6-3b5d1b40d8dc@sbcglobal.net> <642A7A6E-6316-41B1-9163-BE1F96418663@nf6x.net> <5e80a8d6-8c4c-af38-9c73-fe576c80c88c@bitsavers.org> <18E64312-2146-42D7-9193-D56C32E3F306@nf6x.net> <42cc5cdf-ab65-e13d-6d85-6bb9a59903a8@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I miss my old Televideo 910. I wonder if Steve Albany stole it? At ASU, when I was a kid pulling DECwriter printers out the bin to check for printouts in half-duplex, they had something called an Infoton. It was uppercase only and had the worst keyboard, ever. It felt like typing on a wet sponge. From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Sep 8 12:58:39 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 13:58:39 -0400 Subject: Oddball Terminals (Was: Re: VT100's) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <165ba55f179-1eba-a1b1@webjas-vad217.srv.aolmail.net> Infotrons!? ?and the old? UPPER? CASE ONLY? BEEHIVES! I? remember those and also? the old? TEC terminals ? A recent? TEC? ?endowment to the museum was? of all these multi colored? books? TEC? put out on all their? terminal lines.? ?I need? to see? ?where? they? may already? be? scanned.. in? ?not? can? go on the someday to be scanned? ?stack. ? checking bitsavers?http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/tec/? ?I? see? there are? ? some? listed so maybe? not all that? unusual...? will see? what? ?we have? they? ?don't. ? We? had a? TEC? terminal? in the? computer? room? at? Computer Exchange at? one? time.... wish I had? kept it. ? there? ?is? one? model upper? case beehive? I? need? for a? ?display if anyone? still has? some? ?drop me? a? line email offlist? thx? ed#? www.smecc.org ? In a message dated 9/8/2018 10:07:26 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? I miss my old Televideo 910. I wonder if Steve Albany stole it? At ASU, when I was a kid pulling DECwriter printers out the bin to check for printouts in half-duplex, they had something called an Infoton. It was uppercase only and had the worst keyboard, ever. It felt like typing on a wet sponge. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 8 13:06:26 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 11:06:26 -0700 Subject: Oddball Terminals (Was: Re: VT100's) In-Reply-To: References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1571B7D2-158C-4499-9709-AD59A8A28F04@comcast.net> <580CA220-B3EB-475D-A03D-63A8730EF26F@comcast.net> <48ef0198-4f34-96c0-afd6-3b5d1b40d8dc@sbcglobal.net> <642A7A6E-6316-41B1-9163-BE1F96418663@nf6x.net> <5e80a8d6-8c4c-af38-9c73-fe576c80c88c@bitsavers.org> <18E64312-2146-42D7-9193-D56C32E3F306@nf6x.net> <42cc5cdf-ab65-e13d-6d85-6bb9a59903a8@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <99e537e8-ade2-e912-0483-a6be96d637c9@sydex.com> On 09/08/2018 10:07 AM, John Many Jars via cctalk wrote: > I miss my old Televideo 910. I wonder if Steve Albany stole it? > > At ASU, when I was a kid pulling DECwriter printers out the bin to check > for printouts in half-duplex, they had something called an Infoton. It was > uppercase only and had the worst keyboard, ever. It felt like typing on a > wet sponge. Heck, I miss my Beehive Super Bees. --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 13:36:12 2018 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 13:36:12 -0500 Subject: Teletype mod 40 PSU In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 7, 2018, 23:08 Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: > I have a teletype 40PSU101 I can drop off at VCFMW or mail, but is is a bit > heavy. > > If you have any interest, please contact me off list. > Is this for the Dataspeed 40 terminal? If so, I have two of those and one of them is dead. Who knows, maybe it's the power supply. > From useddec at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 13:53:28 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 13:53:28 -0500 Subject: Teletype mod 40 PSU In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think the MOD 40 came out in the 70s Was the Dataspeed the video? For some reason, I never had any luck with the link, and can't find the second one. On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 1:36 PM, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Sep 7, 2018, 23:08 Paul Anderson via cctalk > > wrote: > > > I have a teletype 40PSU101 I can drop off at VCFMW or mail, but is is a > bit > > heavy. > > > > If you have any interest, please contact me off list. > > > > > Is this for the Dataspeed 40 terminal? If so, I have two of those and one > of them is dead. Who knows, maybe it's the power supply. > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 8 14:09:36 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 12:09:36 -0700 Subject: Teletype mod 40 PSU In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6564485e-5739-36b2-65d6-f7214bfd650a@sydex.com> On 09/08/2018 11:53 AM, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: > I think the MOD 40 came out in the 70s Was the Dataspeed the video? Yup. The model 40 band printer was something that could do 150 lpm on 14" tractor feed and could fit on a tabletop. Sold as a Centronics/Dataproducts interfaced unit by several third-party vendors. We had one hooked to an MDS 800 to churn out listings. A great unit for the time. Always sold with a an acoustic cover, however--the naked bugger was very loud. I think I still have a set of schematics for it. --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 14:13:28 2018 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 14:13:28 -0500 Subject: Teletype mod 40 PSU In-Reply-To: <6564485e-5739-36b2-65d6-f7214bfd650a@sydex.com> References: <6564485e-5739-36b2-65d6-f7214bfd650a@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 2:09 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Yup. The model 40 band printer was something that could do 150 lpm on > 14" tractor feed and could fit on a tabletop. Sold as a > Centronics/Dataproducts interfaced unit by several third-party vendors. > We had one hooked to an MDS 800 to churn out listings. A great unit for > the time. > > Always sold with a an acoustic cover, however--the naked bugger was very > loud. I think I still have a set of schematics for it. Through whatever happenstance led that stuff into my hoard, I've got the acoustic enclosure for that printer but...not the printer. Not really in a hurry to replace it, but it would be nice someday to see the two reunited. From healyzh at avanthar.com Sat Sep 8 14:41:21 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 12:41:21 -0700 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1571B7D2-158C-4499-9709-AD59A8A28F04@comcast.net> <9cbf089a-bfdf-98ff-4162-12fd4d23d610@bitsavers.org> <1a36d750-e997-21ab-1a35-bf6167b71eae@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Sep 7, 2018, at 10:55 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > > TI made a clamshell portable VT220-compatible terminal with an LCD screen, > the Travelmate LT220. It's very nice, the LCD is high-contrast (but no > backlight) and it even has a built in 2400bps modem. I believe it can run > off of a battery as well. It's very handy. > > There's a picture of one near the bottom of this page: > http://ummr.altervista.org/sistemi_x86.htm > > - Josh That?s an interesting terminal. Totally pointless for me, but it would be cool. Zane From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Sep 8 14:57:44 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 15:57:44 -0400 Subject: Teletype mod 40 PSU In-Reply-To: <6564485e-5739-36b2-65d6-f7214bfd650a@sydex.com> References: <6564485e-5739-36b2-65d6-f7214bfd650a@sydex.com> Message-ID: <165bac2f9a4-1ebb-a954@webjas-vad115.srv.aolmail.net> alas most of the bands have desnigrated I understand... any working ones ? ed# Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Saturday, September 8, 2018 Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 09/08/2018 11:53 AM, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: > I think the MOD 40 came out in the 70s Was the Dataspeed the video? Yup. The model 40 band printer was something that could do 150 lpm on 14" tractor feed and could fit on a tabletop. Sold as a Centronics/Dataproducts interfaced unit by several third-party vendors. We had one hooked to an MDS 800 to churn out listings. A great unit for the time. Always sold with a an acoustic cover, however--the naked bugger was very loud. I think I still have a set of schematics for it. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 8 17:33:43 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 15:33:43 -0700 Subject: Teletype mod 40 PSU In-Reply-To: <165bac2f9a4-1ebb-a954@webjas-vad115.srv.aolmail.net> References: <6564485e-5739-36b2-65d6-f7214bfd650a@sydex.com> <165bac2f9a4-1ebb-a954@webjas-vad115.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <5fb48ad9-c0fc-002c-407f-f612e6ced719@sydex.com> On 09/08/2018 12:57 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > alas most of the bands have desnigrated I understand... any working ones ? ed# Dunno--I suppose if someone were dedicated enough, it wouldn't be horribly difficult to fabricate a band, but I suspect that deep in some dusty warehouse there are a ton of spares. WU used these printers quite a bit. Probably easier to find than many old type trains. The benefit, of course is that it printed fully-formed characters at 150 lpm--i.e. a true line printer, not a character printer masquerading as one. I still have some technical documents that I did back in the day printed with one of these. I do recall that we wore the zeroes out more than the other characters, but then, we printed a lot of dumps on the thing. --Chuck From imp at bsdimp.com Sat Sep 8 17:57:21 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 16:57:21 -0600 Subject: Oddball Terminals (Was: Re: VT100's) In-Reply-To: <99e537e8-ade2-e912-0483-a6be96d637c9@sydex.com> References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1571B7D2-158C-4499-9709-AD59A8A28F04@comcast.net> <580CA220-B3EB-475D-A03D-63A8730EF26F@comcast.net> <48ef0198-4f34-96c0-afd6-3b5d1b40d8dc@sbcglobal.net> <642A7A6E-6316-41B1-9163-BE1F96418663@nf6x.net> <5e80a8d6-8c4c-af38-9c73-fe576c80c88c@bitsavers.org> <18E64312-2146-42D7-9193-D56C32E3F306@nf6x.net> <42cc5cdf-ab65-e13d-6d85-6bb9a59903a8@bitsavers.org> <99e537e8-ade2-e912-0483-a6be96d637c9@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 8, 2018, 12:06 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 09/08/2018 10:07 AM, John Many Jars via cctalk wrote: > > I miss my old Televideo 910. I wonder if Steve Albany stole it? > > > > At ASU, when I was a kid pulling DECwriter printers out the bin to check > > for printouts in half-duplex, they had something called an Infoton. It > was > > uppercase only and had the worst keyboard, ever. It felt like typing on > a > > wet sponge. > > Heck, I miss my Beehive Super Bees. > My first TTY was the DECwriter II. My first terminal was a Beehive BH100. I hacked together some TECO to support it on a local vi/emacs/EDT-like visual mode editor... IIRC, the escape sequences were put into specific numbered registers as TECO macros. A poor man's curses in the mid 70's.... I thought it was super cool until I discovered emacs at school on our 11/750... Warner > From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Sep 8 19:25:45 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 20:25:45 -0400 Subject: Teletype mod 40 PSU In-Reply-To: <5fb48ad9-c0fc-002c-407f-f612e6ced719@sydex.com> Message-ID: <165bbb85a80-1ebc-b2a8@webjas-vac178.srv.aolmail.net> but the? materials of? the? belts? deteriorate that? hold them together I? have? been? told? ?by? tty? collectors...? ?verify? ? Ed# ? ? In a message dated 9/8/2018 3:33:53 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? On 09/08/2018 12:57 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > alas most of the bands have desnigrated I understand... any working ones ? ed# Dunno--I suppose if someone were dedicated enough, it wouldn't be horribly difficult to fabricate a band, but I suspect that deep in some dusty warehouse there are a ton of spares. WU used these printers quite a bit. Probably easier to find than many old type trains. The benefit, of course is that it printed fully-formed characters at 150 lpm--i.e. a true line printer, not a character printer masquerading as one. I still have some technical documents that I did back in the day printed with one of these. I do recall that we wore the zeroes out more than the other characters, but then, we printed a lot of dumps on the thing. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 8 21:39:31 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 19:39:31 -0700 Subject: Oddball Terminals (Was: Re: VT100's) In-Reply-To: References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1571B7D2-158C-4499-9709-AD59A8A28F04@comcast.net> <580CA220-B3EB-475D-A03D-63A8730EF26F@comcast.net> <48ef0198-4f34-96c0-afd6-3b5d1b40d8dc@sbcglobal.net> <642A7A6E-6316-41B1-9163-BE1F96418663@nf6x.net> <5e80a8d6-8c4c-af38-9c73-fe576c80c88c@bitsavers.org> <18E64312-2146-42D7-9193-D56C32E3F306@nf6x.net> <42cc5cdf-ab65-e13d-6d85-6bb9a59903a8@bitsavers.org> <99e537e8-ade2-e912-0483-a6be96d637c9@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1e9f6eb8-3199-a12e-2392-89d791c12498@sydex.com> On 09/08/2018 03:57 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > My first TTY was the DECwriter II. My first terminal was a Beehive > BH100. I hacked together some TECO to support it on a local > vi/emacs/EDT-like visual mode editor... IIRC, the escape sequences were > put into specific numbered registers as TECO macros. A poor man's curses > in the mid 70's.... I thought it was super cool until I discovered emacs > at school on our 11/750... > Before I got real disks on my MITS box, I used a Techtran dual-deck paper tape simulator as storage (one deck read-only, the other read/write and block searchable) and the Beehive as a rudimentary word processor. Read up a page, edit offline, and then hit "Transmit". Early CPT word processors worked in a similar manner. IIRC, the Super Bee used an 8008 and a whole mess of shift registers for storage. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 8 21:44:49 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 19:44:49 -0700 Subject: Teletype mod 40 PSU In-Reply-To: <165bbb85a80-1ebc-b2a8@webjas-vac178.srv.aolmail.net> References: <165bbb85a80-1ebc-b2a8@webjas-vac178.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <73728d59-6d30-ee85-ffb3-7bf5795bc8e1@sydex.com> On 09/08/2018 05:25 PM, Ed Sharpe wrote: > but the? materials of? the? belts? deteriorate that? hold them together > I? have? been? told? ?by? tty? collectors...? ?verify? You're taking about the carrier for the print pallets? Yeah, I don't know how easy it would be to fabricate a replacement. PDF page 388 is an example: https://ia800509.us.archive.org/15/items/bitsavers_teletypemod404540ComponentsServiceApr82_54361338/325-073_Dataspeed_40_4540_Components_Service_Apr82.pdf No matter, I seem to recall that quite a number of special ICs and modules were used in the electronics. I really don't know how common these are in the wild nowadays. Probably less common than the Model 40 CRT terminals. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 8 23:48:11 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 21:48:11 -0700 Subject: Teletype mod 40 PSU In-Reply-To: <165bc4ed1ba-1ebe-b594@webjas-vad052.srv.aolmail.net> References: <165bc4ed1ba-1ebe-b594@webjas-vad052.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <939358fb-829f-0164-d959-6e513fafacbe@sydex.com> On 09/08/2018 08:10 PM, Ed Sharpe wrote: > Yepper?? the? material that holds all together... > ? > I? remember? back in the? first? year in? Computer? Biz? we? came across > one of these and it was? fun? to watch it? run self? test.... fast!?? > sold it to someone that had one and interfaced it already... > ? > Always? wanted? later? a combo? for museum? display of the? CRT and the? > Printer... There is a great? glossy that? shows up on ebay? time to time > that was a press photo of a gal? with the combo at a desk... It's a bit surprising to see how few pieces of old peripherals have survived. Sometime around 1985, we had a VAX 11/750 driving two CDC (MPI) big 1500 (IIRC) LPM printers. I don't know whatever became of them, but we couldn't have been an isolated instance. It seems that more CPUs have survived than the accompanying peripherals. This, in spite of installations with oceans of disk and tape drives, for example. --Chuck From technoid6502 at gmail.com Sun Sep 9 01:25:48 2018 From: technoid6502 at gmail.com (Jeffrey S. Worley) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2018 02:25:48 -0400 Subject: Portable terminals Message-ID: Data General made a nifty and flexible terminal called "Walkabout". It had 32kb of internal memory one could use to take notes on the move. It ran on a 12volt wall wart which charged an onboard nicad battery. The lcd screen is not backlit but it was useable in most any light. The sliders on the face note-book-like machine controlled contrast and darkness. I used one as the head unit for my Data General MV4000/DC. The battery is likely dead on any you'll find, but it is easily accessible by a sliding cover on the side which when removed reveals a pack you can unplug and replace without tools. It supported a fair list of emulations selectable on-screen including vt220 and vt100 plus various proprietary 'Dasher' emulations. The keyboard is better than most modern-day notebooks, it is VERY light- weight and pretty sturdy. Here's a link to a photo. http://www.digibarn.com/collections/systems/dg-walkabout/DSC06218.JPG Jeffrey S. Worley From carlojpisani at gmail.com Sun Sep 9 06:58:20 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 13:58:20 +0200 Subject: VT100 emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I had given some thought over the last day or two about making a really tiny video terminal. > A while ago, I had bought a couple of tablet ARM SOC LCD notebooks to try doing that. which model? From carlojpisani at gmail.com Sun Sep 9 07:23:13 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 14:23:13 +0200 Subject: Portable terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: we (at http://www.downthebunker.xyz) are developing a project that is a portable vt100 in laptop shape. done with modern components, essentially it's an FPGA + LVDS circuit to drive the LCD the chassis will be manufactured by laser-cutting plastic planes, then assembled with glue. it's not yet a public project since it's a personal team internal work, but maybe ... anyway, the firmware is barebone, with a simple OS that runs directly the VT100 Il giorno dom 9 set 2018 alle ore 08:25 Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk ha scritto: > > Data General made a nifty and flexible terminal called "Walkabout". It > had 32kb of internal memory one could use to take notes on the move. It > ran on a 12volt wall wart which charged an onboard nicad battery. > The lcd screen is not backlit but it was useable in most any light. > The sliders on the face note-book-like machine controlled contrast and > darkness. I used one as the head unit for my Data General MV4000/DC. > The battery is likely dead on any you'll find, but it is easily > accessible by a sliding cover on the side which when removed reveals a > pack you can unplug and replace without tools. > > It supported a fair list of emulations selectable on-screen including > vt220 and vt100 plus various proprietary 'Dasher' emulations. The > keyboard is better than most modern-day notebooks, it is VERY light- > weight and pretty sturdy. Here's a link to a photo. > > http://www.digibarn.com/collections/systems/dg-walkabout/DSC06218.JPG > > Jeffrey S. Worley > From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Sep 9 11:30:36 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 09:30:36 -0700 Subject: VT100 emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: a 7" android tablet based on the wondermedia wm8650 SOC wow.. dug out my notes and I was looking at doing this six years ago :-( these things are so old they've disappeared from the market the only one I could find with a keyboard is https://www.ebay.com/itm/WonderMedia-WM8650-Android-2-2-256MB-RAM-800MHZ-7-PC-Laptop-Computer-w-Charger/381652819611 On 9/9/18 4:58 AM, Carlo Pisani wrote: >> I had given some thought over the last day or two about making a really tiny video terminal. >> A while ago, I had bought a couple of tablet ARM SOC LCD notebooks to try doing that. > > which model? > From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Sep 9 11:34:51 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 09:34:51 -0700 Subject: VT100 emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <680f1479-a0a5-b9c6-19f3-8a510e7ba892@bitsavers.org> On 9/9/18 9:30 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > a 7" android tablet based on the wondermedia wm8650 SOC > > wow.. dug out my notes and I was looking at doing this six years ago :-( > http://kernelhacks.blogspot.com/2012/06/arch-linux-on-wm8650-netbook.html this was back when I was thinking of making a USB smart RS232 dongle that could flip between DTE and DCE for it so you didn't have to fiddle with null modems From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Sep 9 11:45:11 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 09:45:11 -0700 Subject: VT100 emulation In-Reply-To: <680f1479-a0a5-b9c6-19f3-8a510e7ba892@bitsavers.org> References: <680f1479-a0a5-b9c6-19f3-8a510e7ba892@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: WM updated the SOC a couple of times. here is the 1.7ghz verison https://www.ebay.com/itm/7-Android-Mini-Notebook-4GB-8GB-Laptop-Netbook-Keyboard-Quad-Core-WIFI-Cam-PC-B/262784124103 On 9/9/18 9:34 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 9/9/18 9:30 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> a 7" android tablet based on the wondermedia wm8650 SOC >> >> wow.. dug out my notes and I was looking at doing this six years ago :-( >> > > http://kernelhacks.blogspot.com/2012/06/arch-linux-on-wm8650-netbook.html > > this was back when I was thinking of making a USB smart RS232 dongle that could > flip between DTE and DCE for it so you didn't have to fiddle with null modems > > > From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Sep 9 12:37:39 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 13:37:39 -0400 Subject: Portable terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <165bf691010-1ebc-100d@webjas-vaa175.srv.aolmail.net> what is the date?? Would have? been a? wonderful? device? for a? journalist to? connect? to a? mainframe? with...? ?Ed# ? In a message dated 9/8/2018 11:25:59 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? Data General made a nifty and flexible terminal called "Walkabout". It had 32kb of internal memory one could use to take notes on the move. It ran on a 12volt wall wart which charged an onboard nicad battery. The lcd screen is not backlit but it was useable in most any light. The sliders on the face note-book-like machine controlled contrast and darkness. I used one as the head unit for my Data General MV4000/DC. The battery is likely dead on any you'll find, but it is easily accessible by a sliding cover on the side which when removed reveals a pack you can unplug and replace without tools. It supported a fair list of emulations selectable on-screen including vt220 and vt100 plus various proprietary 'Dasher' emulations. The keyboard is better than most modern-day notebooks, it is VERY light- weight and pretty sturdy. Here's a link to a photo. http://www.digibarn.com/collections/systems/dg-walkabout/DSC06218.JPG Jeffrey S. Worley From marvin at west.net Sun Sep 9 14:02:49 2018 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 12:02:49 -0700 Subject: VCFMW - Zilog PDS8000 Model 20, NCR 1102-6000 Message-ID: I have a Zilog PDS8000 Model 20 with some disks and manuals. It has not been powered up since I first got it some 20 or so years ago (total guess.) It was previously owned by a software developer. The boot disks are still in the 8" drives :). The NCR 1102-6000 is another one that I picked up years ago (who knows how many) and it has not been powered up in the time I've had it. Includes keyboard and original disks/manuals. Has two cartridges... one looks like a parallel printer and the other I didn't pull out (memory?). These are things I won't bring unless they are sold before I bring them. The operating condition is totally unknown. So if there is any interest, please let me know with offer. My plan is to leave for Chicago on Tuesday. From marvin at west.net Sun Sep 9 15:05:49 2018 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 13:05:49 -0700 Subject: VCFMW - Zilog PDS8000 Model 20, NCR 1102-6000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Zilog PDS8000 has been sold. On 9/9/2018 12:02 PM, Marvin Johnston wrote: > I have a Zilog PDS8000 Model 20 with some disks and manuals. It has not > been powered up since I first got it some 20 or so years ago (total > guess.) It was previously owned by a software developer. The boot disks > are still in the 8" drives :). > > The NCR 1102-6000 is another one that I picked up years ago (who knows > how many) and it has not been powered up in the time I've had it. > Includes keyboard and original disks/manuals. Has two cartridges... one > looks like a parallel printer and the other I didn't pull out (memory?). > > These are things I won't bring unless they are sold before I bring them. > The operating condition is totally unknown. So if there is any interest, > please let me know with offer. My plan is to leave for Chicago on Tuesday. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Sep 9 15:27:54 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 13:27:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Portable terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: TI Silent 700 was the standard for decades. And, it was one of the uses that popularized the Radio Shack Model 100 (also the other kyocera variants, and the Epson HC20/HX20) TDDs (Telecommunication Device fpor the Deaf) included many portable ones, mostly using "Baudot"/"Murray"/CCITT-2 The Atari Portfolio, Poqet, and HP95/100 models briefly became the standard pocket terminals. But there have been many more over the years, such as the Epson RC20 wristwatch (with sorta-Z80, RAM, ROM, serial port), Palm (and Fossil Palm wristwatch), Ipaq, etc. How hard is it to add a serial port to a "smartphone"? From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 9 15:40:19 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 13:40:19 -0700 Subject: Portable terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0992f6e5-73ba-e156-4e03-95102cd36f17@sydex.com> Portable? I've got a Micon terminal here that probably was about the smallest practical terminal made in the 1970s. LED display (15 segment, I think), 31 key keyboard (numbers and punctuation are entered with the shift key. Basically, 26 alphabetic keys, space, shift, shift lock, control and clear keys. Uppercase only. Line cord and DB-25F connector. Basically, an ASCII version of the Micon TDD terminals. Built mostly of 4000-series SSI CMOS and some random discretes. Anyone want to make an offer? It had been working at one time, but the CMOS ICs seem to be going one by one to the great sandpile. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Sep 9 15:46:03 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 14:46:03 -0600 Subject: Portable terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <446f2263-2931-440d-800d-fd1cce9bf19e@jetnet.ab.ca> On 9/9/2018 2:27 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > TI Silent 700 was the standard for decades. > > And, it was one of the uses that popularized the Radio Shack Model 100 > (also the other kyocera variants, and the Epson HC20/HX20) > > TDDs (Telecommunication Device fpor the Deaf) included many portable > ones, mostly using "Baudot"/"Murray"/CCITT-2 > > The Atari Portfolio, Poqet, and HP95/100 models briefly became the > standard pocket terminals. > > But there have been many more over the years, such as the Epson RC20 > wristwatch (with sorta-Z80, RAM, ROM, serial port), > Palm (and Fossil Palm wristwatch), Ipaq, etc. > > How hard is it to add a serial port to a "smartphone"? > I am waiting for the telephone option. :) Are there any good windows vt100 terminals. I want someting that comes up as real VT100 fonts and full screen. None of this tiny little window with some little 6x7 font. Ben. From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Sun Sep 9 20:17:57 2018 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 18:17:57 -0700 Subject: Portable terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003201d448a4$1e4b8850$5ae298f0$@net> > How hard is it to add a serial port to a "smartphone"? Fred, Take a look at: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=de.kai_morich.serial_usb_termi nal&hl=en_US I am sure there are others out there as well... -Ali From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Sun Sep 9 20:17:57 2018 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 18:17:57 -0700 Subject: VT100 emulation In-Reply-To: References: <680f1479-a0a5-b9c6-19f3-8a510e7ba892@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <003301d448a4$20d826a0$628873e0$@net> > WM updated the SOC a couple of times. here is the 1.7ghz verison > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/7-Android-Mini-Notebook-4GB-8GB-Laptop- > Netbook-Keyboard-Quad-Core-WIFI-Cam-PC-B/262784124103 > Android 4.2 Anything that runs a more up to date version of Android? There are a couple of great android terminal programs (e.g. Serial USB Terminal) that allow you to direct connect your android phone/tablet to a serial port and use it as a terminal. Not sure how many of them would run on Android 4.2 though... -Ali From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Sep 9 21:02:41 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 19:02:41 -0700 Subject: VT100 emulation In-Reply-To: <003301d448a4$20d826a0$628873e0$@net> References: <680f1479-a0a5-b9c6-19f3-8a510e7ba892@bitsavers.org> <003301d448a4$20d826a0$628873e0$@net> Message-ID: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=jackpal.androidterm Jack is a friend from the my early days at Apple. From rtomek at ceti.pl Sun Sep 9 21:43:52 2018 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 04:43:52 +0200 Subject: OT(?): A word processor for handwriting Message-ID: <20180910024352.GB17154@tau1.ceti.pl> Perhaps something of interest for people here: http://www.styluslabs.com/ (source: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17858641 ) I was a bit mixed about this until I read that single written page had 1.4 mbytes - after that I finally understood this "writing tool" is worse than Word ever was (or is it?). So it is going to catch up with people (or some derivation of idea). So now I am destined to... defending MS Word? -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From useddec at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 01:09:50 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 01:09:50 -0500 Subject: SETASI UNI-BUS Cache? Message-ID: Is anyone familiar with this? It looks like a M9202, but has logic on both boards. Maybe memory management? Thanks, Paul From useddec at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 06:20:44 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 06:20:44 -0500 Subject: RK07's , controller, packs at VCFMW Message-ID: If anyone is interested, I have 2 RK07 drives, controller and packs I can bring to VCFMW. Would prefer to sell as a package, but will consider breaking up. Any reasonable offer. Thanks, Paul From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 07:58:39 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 14:58:39 +0200 Subject: VT100 emulation In-Reply-To: <003301d448a4$20d826a0$628873e0$@net> References: <680f1479-a0a5-b9c6-19f3-8a510e7ba892@bitsavers.org> <003301d448a4$20d826a0$628873e0$@net> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 03:18, Ali via cctalk wrote: > Android 4.2 > > Anything that runs a more up to date version of Android? Sure. The Gemini. https://www.planetcom.co.uk/ I have one. It's a lovely little device and quite well-made. I am not sure how robust it will be long-term. However, it's not really much use as a smartphone if you are a heavy user, as I am. I bought a used iPhone 6S+ instead and that's become my daily driver. I can see the Gemini being very useful as a pocket-sized writing tool, though. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Mon Sep 10 08:07:50 2018 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 13:07:50 +0000 Subject: Portable terminals Message-ID: >Message: 18 >Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 14:23:13 +0200 >From: Carlo Pisani >To: technoid6502 at gmail.com, cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: Portable terminals > >we (at http://www.downthebunker.xyz) are developing a project that is >a portable vt100 in laptop shape. > >done with modern components, essentially it's an FPGA + LVDS circuit >to drive the LCD >the chassis will be manufactured by laser-cutting plastic planes, then >assembled with glue. > >it's not yet a public project since it's a personal team internal >work, but maybe ... > >anyway, the firmware is barebone, with a simple OS that runs directly the VT100 >Il giorno dom 9 set 2018 alle ore 08:25 Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk ? ha scritto: >> >> Data General made a nifty and flexible terminal called "Walkabout". It >> had 32kb of internal memory one could use to take notes on the move. It >> ran on a 12volt wall wart which charged an onboard nicad battery. If you want a small, portable, battery-powered terminal, get an HPLX palmtop (95, 100 or 200). Runs for weeks or months on two AA batteries. The HPLX palmtops have a VT100 emulation. I have not had a need to use it, but Tony has and perhaps can comment on its fidelity to the real thing. Bob From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 08:44:09 2018 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 14:44:09 +0100 Subject: Portable terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 2:07 PM, Robert Feldman via cctalk wrote: > If you want a small, portable, battery-powered terminal, get an HPLX palmtop > (95, 100 or 200). Runs for weeks or months on two AA batteries. The HPLX > palmtops have a VT100 emulation. I have not had a need to use it, but Tony > has and perhaps can comment on its fidelity to the real thing. I've never really used the VT100 emulation, so I can't comment on how good it is. I do recommend these machines as a dumb terminal substitute and for kermit/xmodem 'sneakernet' [1] transfers. In other words to upload a file from one machine, go somewhere and download it to another machine. Personally I prefer the 95LX as the 40 column display is easier to read. But the 100LX has a better serial port with hardware handshaking and an 80 column display which may be better for the VT100 emulation. [1] This term doesn't really 'work' here but 'trainernet' doesn't sound right either. -tony From mark at matlockfamily.com Fri Sep 7 14:21:46 2018 From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 12:21:46 -0700 Subject: VT100s Message-ID: <3FA7E27F-96EA-4B5D-8700-53F14E9CA817@MatlockFamily.com> One terminal system I haven?t seen mentioned is the VT LAN40. I bought one new in the box about a year ago from Keyways ($400) and have found it to be very useful although it is not contemporary with most of the DEC systems we discuss. It needs a flat screen monitor, but can have multiple windows that allow cut and paste between between serial ports and it can talk LAT, CTERM, Telnet on its ethernet port. It has a mouse and does a great VT340 emulation. The unit can Mounted vertically and take very little bench space, but as has been mentioned before the keyboard is a typical VT420 sized keyboard. It has a history buffer so has many of the advantages of a good software emulator but is very accurate in the emulation. It gives me a single screen and keyboard that I can use to simultaneously work with my RSX11M+ (via LAT), the RT-11 MINC via serial and the two VAXes and any RPi?s running linux. The CPU is a little slow but response is acceptable. The ROMs in it might have bit a good starting point for reverse engineering. I think Keyways has a number of them and believe he will sell to hobbyists at the lower price above. I found this description at https://vt100.net/dec/vt_history VT LAN40 In February 1995, Digital announced the VT LAN40, a colour windowing network terminal. This device was a diskless PC, containing Windows 3.1 in ROM, and supporting up to eight terminal sessions over LAT, DECnet, TCP/IP or serial line, using TD/SMP. The system box and mouse had a suggested list price of $890. It connected to standard PC keyboards and monitors. Mark From tacoman656 at gmail.com Sun Sep 9 11:40:59 2018 From: tacoman656 at gmail.com (Todd Goodman) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 12:40:59 -0400 Subject: VT100 emulation In-Reply-To: <680f1479-a0a5-b9c6-19f3-8a510e7ba892@bitsavers.org> References: <680f1479-a0a5-b9c6-19f3-8a510e7ba892@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <18e37a97-90b5-0538-eb69-0aed80eced96@gmail.com> On 9/9/2018 12:34 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 9/9/18 9:30 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> a 7" android tablet based on the wondermedia wm8650 SOC >> >> wow.. dug out my notes and I was looking at doing this six years ago :-( >> > http://kernelhacks.blogspot.com/2012/06/arch-linux-on-wm8650-netbook.html > > this was back when I was thinking of making a USB smart RS232 dongle that could > flip between DTE and DCE for it so you didn't have to fiddle with null modems > > > I use a raspberry pi in a case with a touchscreen, small keyboard remote, and USB serial when I have to trek to the server room. I even run it all off a battery pack so I don't have to plug in. Todd From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Mon Sep 10 12:35:06 2018 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 10:35:06 -0700 Subject: Portable terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004701d4492c$9e9376c0$dbba6440$@net> > If you want a small, portable, battery-powered terminal, get an HPLX > palmtop (95, 100 or 200). Runs for weeks or months on two AA batteries. > The HPLX palmtops have a VT100 emulation. I have not had a need to use > it, but Tony has and perhaps can comment on its fidelity to the real > thing. Yeah, except they are ridiculously expensive... If you can get your hands on an android device w/ a decent keyboard for $60 new IMHO you are much better off than w/ an HPLX. Plus you have much more options as far as SW and functionality goes. -Ali From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 12:47:33 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 10:47:33 -0700 Subject: Portable terminals In-Reply-To: <004701d4492c$9e9376c0$dbba6440$@net> References: <004701d4492c$9e9376c0$dbba6440$@net> Message-ID: On 9/10/2018 10:35 AM, Ali via cctalk wrote: >> If you want a small, portable, battery-powered terminal, get an HPLX >> palmtop (95, 100 or 200). Runs for weeks or months on two AA batteries. >> The HPLX palmtops have a VT100 emulation. I have not had a need to use >> it, but Tony has and perhaps can comment on its fidelity to the real >> thing. > > Yeah, except they are ridiculously expensive... If you can get your hands on > an android device w/ a decent keyboard for $60 new IMHO you are much better > off than w/ an HPLX. Plus you have much more options as far as SW and > functionality goes. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hewlett-Packard-HP-100LX-Palmtop-PC-with-CF-card-PCMCIA-adaptor-instructions/392120231070 It's $30 more than your android device -- I don't know if that falls into the category of "ridiculously expensive" or not.? I see them sell between $50 and $125 fairly regularly. - Josh > > -Ali > > From blstuart at bellsouth.net Mon Sep 10 13:06:59 2018 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 18:06:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: AlphaWindows - Protocol Information? References: <651900294.1493946.1536602819815.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <651900294.1493946.1536602819815@mail.yahoo.com> On Wed, 9/5/18, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Martin and I thank you! Al and Martin, I've run the standard though our fancy copier at the office and had it scan at 400dpi, bilevel directly to PDF. A quick look with xpdf seems to be a pretty decent scan. I've put it up here: http://cs.drexel.edu/~bls96/alphawindows.pdf I also had a sales slick from ADDS for their 4000/AWT terminal that supported AlphaWindows. I went ahead and scanned that one in color: http://cs.drexel.edu/~bls96/adds_4000awt.pdf Hope that helps, BLS From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Mon Sep 10 14:02:48 2018 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 12:02:48 -0700 Subject: Portable terminals In-Reply-To: References: <004701d4492c$9e9376c0$dbba6440$@net> Message-ID: <008b01d44938$ddfe8c30$99fba490$@net> > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hewlett-Packard-HP-100LX-Palmtop-PC-with-CF- > card-PCMCIA-adaptor-instructions/392120231070 > > It's $30 more than your android device -- I don't know if that falls > into the category of "ridiculously expensive" or not. I see them sell > between $50 and $125 fairly regularly. I was thinking more of the HP200LX price point when I made my comment. However, I would say that is still too expensive. You still need the serial adapter which usually adds at least another $30 to the cost and for what? You get an old device with no support for modern HW and limited ability to run SW. Now I am not bashing the HP LX series. They are great pocket DOS machines, which is all you need for a simple VT100 terminal app, so they will get the job done. However, for possibly less money, an android tablet gives you faster HW, modern networking (wifi), a better screen, more storage, and access to much more SW. -Ali p.s. The caveat is of course if you get something like the Gemini. That looks like a very nice machine but at 599 British pounds I rather get a Sony UX series and have a real PC or the HP LX200. The key, at least for me, is finding a no name Android tablet w/ the basics that runs Android 7 or above at that $50 to $75 price point. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Sep 10 14:18:14 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 12:18:14 -0700 Subject: Portable terminals In-Reply-To: <008b01d44938$ddfe8c30$99fba490$@net> References: <004701d4492c$9e9376c0$dbba6440$@net> <008b01d44938$ddfe8c30$99fba490$@net> Message-ID: <053c2b6f-c3ec-99ca-6e30-8b3d3e214a8f@bitsavers.org> On 9/10/18 12:02 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote: >finding a no name Android tablet w/ the basics that runs Android 7 or above at that $50 to $75 price point. > As sad as it sounds, I'm thinking now it may make sense to gut the electronics and just use the case, lcd and kb to make a dumb terminal. At least then you don't have to screw around with serial dongles. I remembered why I stalled getting the wm8650 going as a dumb terminal, it's a PITA to get Linus (no android) running on it. From lproven at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 02:33:19 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 09:33:19 +0200 Subject: VT100 emulation In-Reply-To: <004601d4492c$9de7cd70$d9b76850$@net> References: <680f1479-a0a5-b9c6-19f3-8a510e7ba892@bitsavers.org> <003301d448a4$20d826a0$628873e0$@net> <004601d4492c$9de7cd70$d9b76850$@net> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 19:35, Ali wrote: > > > > Anything that runs a more up to date version of Android? > > > > Sure. The Gemini. > > > > https://www.planetcom.co.uk/ > > > > I have one. It's a lovely little device and quite well-made. I am not > > sure how robust it will be long-term. > > That is a nice device. I wonder if it is available in the US. Do you know if they keep the OS up to date? Yes, it's available worldwide. I backed the kickstarter in January and got mine in July. I think they have now caught up with the backlog and are available at retail. I still have not received my peripherals yet, though -- nobody has. But the company is doing OK and discussing a 2nd model. They plan to update Android but so far there's only been one update. It's currently on Android 7.1. I'm hoping for 8 with Project Treble. The retro angle is that it's a licensed successor model to the late-1990s Psion Series 5 and 5MX. It has the same keyboard, licensed from Psion. The modern machine is thinner and does not have a removable battery (sadly). It also runs Debian Linux and Jolla Sailfish. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 03:23:18 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 10:23:18 +0200 Subject: Portable terminals In-Reply-To: <008b01d44938$ddfe8c30$99fba490$@net> References: <004701d4492c$9e9376c0$dbba6440$@net> <008b01d44938$ddfe8c30$99fba490$@net> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 21:02, Ali via cctalk wrote: > p.s. The caveat is of course if you get something like the Gemini. That looks like a very nice machine but at 599 British pounds I rather get a Sony UX series and have a real PC or the HP LX200. The key, at least for me, is finding a no name Android tablet w/ the basics that runs Android 7 or above at that $50 to $75 price point. Oh, yes, for a terminal emulator, it's total overkill. OTOH it will talk Telnet, SSH, rsh, rdesktop, X.11, you name it. A cheapo USB dongle gives you RS232, or wired Ethernet, or whatever you want. It's Android but it runs Linux, so it's a decent-keyboard-equipped totally flexible device which will talk to pretty much anything ever. Run DOS or Win98 in an QEMU or some other emulator and some odd proprietary 1980s/1990s client software, whatever you want. Pocket VAX with SimH. Pocket mainframe with Hercules. Pocket NeXTstation or SPARC or PowerMac or Novell Netware server. Anything. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From jhj at trnsz.com Tue Sep 11 03:06:46 2018 From: jhj at trnsz.com (Jeffrey H. Johnson) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 04:06:46 -0400 Subject: Beehive terminals Message-ID: <4DC7E694-96AD-4053-90BB-15545813FA53@trnsz.com> The Beehive ATL-008 might be an obscure terminal today, but it holds a special place in my heart as the first hardware terminal I used extensively, and was advanced (for 1982), supporting user programming in C. It's an advanced ANSI/VT102 terminal. It was based on the 68008 and had quite the nice interface, and extensions like soft keys. There is a TerminalWiki entry at https://terminals-wiki.org/wiki/index.php/Beehive_ATL-008 and Bitsavers has the manuals at http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/beehive/. A somewhat defining feature of this terminal was that the cursor control keys was on left hand side of the keyboard, which many found better optimized for data entry tasks. The Beehive 3270 terminal was also quite advanced. I was wondering if anyone might have one of these terminals - or at least the ROM from one, so it might be possible to pursue emulation? Is there anyone who is into rescuing and preserving the firmware from the terminals of the past? -- Jeffrey H. Johnson jhj at trnsz.com https://ban.ai/multics From jhj at trnsz.com Tue Sep 11 04:35:32 2018 From: jhj at trnsz.com (Jeffrey H. Johnson) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 05:35:32 -0400 Subject: Beehive terminals References: <4DC7E694-96AD-4053-90BB-15545813FA53@trnsz.com> Message-ID: <0FD62F55-2952-4438-B147-35F39F9115F2@trnsz.com> The Beehive ATL-008 (ANSI/VT102 terminal) might be an obscure terminal today, but it holds a special place in my heart as the first hardware terminal I used extensively, and was advanced (for 1982), supporting user programming in C. It was based on the 68008 and had quite the nice interface, and extensions like soft keys. There is a TerminalWiki entry at https://terminals-wiki.org/wiki/index.php/Beehive_ATL-008 and Bitsavers has the manuals at http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/beehive/. A somewhat defining feature of this terminal was that the cursor control keys was on left hand side of the keyboard, which many found better optimized for data entry tasks. The Beehive 3270 terminal was also quite advanced. I was wondering if anyone might have one of these terminals - or at least the ROM from one, so it might be possible to pursue emulation? Is there anyone who is into rescuing and preserving the firmware from the terminals of the past? -- Jeffrey H. Johnson jhj at trnsz.com https://ban.ai/multics From carlojpisani at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 06:39:32 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 13:39:32 +0200 Subject: Portable terminals In-Reply-To: References: <004701d4492c$9e9376c0$dbba6440$@net> <008b01d44938$ddfe8c30$99fba490$@net> Message-ID: does, by any chance, anyone happen to have the tektronix tekxpress v8.1 firmware for their xp4xx terminals? Il giorno mar 11 set 2018 alle ore 10:23 Liam Proven via cctalk ha scritto: > > On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 21:02, Ali via cctalk wrote: > > > p.s. The caveat is of course if you get something like the Gemini. That looks like a very nice machine but at 599 British pounds I rather get a Sony UX series and have a real PC or the HP LX200. The key, at least for me, is finding a no name Android tablet w/ the basics that runs Android 7 or above at that $50 to $75 price point. > > Oh, yes, for a terminal emulator, it's total overkill. > > OTOH it will talk Telnet, SSH, rsh, rdesktop, X.11, you name it. A > cheapo USB dongle gives you RS232, or wired Ethernet, or whatever you > want. It's Android but it runs Linux, so it's a > decent-keyboard-equipped totally flexible device which will talk to > pretty much anything ever. Run DOS or Win98 in an QEMU or some other > emulator and some odd proprietary 1980s/1990s client software, > whatever you want. > > Pocket VAX with SimH. Pocket mainframe with Hercules. Pocket > NeXTstation or SPARC or PowerMac or Novell Netware server. Anything. > > > -- > Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From macro at linux-mips.org Tue Sep 11 09:32:32 2018 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 15:32:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: WTB: 64K cache SIMM (72-pin) In-Reply-To: <201809011641.w81GfbAM24772652@floodgap.com> References: <201809011641.w81GfbAM24772652@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Sep 2018, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: > An excellent question, but it is exactly the same socket as the 72-pin RAM > SIMMs below it. I even labouriously counted all the pins on the board socket > this morning just in case I'd missed something, and it's 72. The service > manual even warns against installing RAM there. > > Is this actually a *non*-standard thing? I know Apple had all kinds of boffo > L2 cache configurations for the beige Power Macs but Apple's Apple and > certainly larger than Alpha Micro. I'd expect SRAM rather than DRAM on a cache SIMM. Cache memory is supposed to be fast after all. Otherwise why bother? -- caching only complicates things, so there has to be benefit in return. Maciej From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 11 10:16:00 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 08:16:00 -0700 Subject: WTB: 64K cache SIMM (72-pin) In-Reply-To: <201809011641.w81GfbAM24772652@floodgap.com> References: <201809011641.w81GfbAM24772652@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 9/1/18 9:41 AM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: > Is this actually a *non*-standard thing? it seems likely. I looked at the IDT and Micron 90's SRAM catalogs and the x32 stock sram modules they made are all 64 pin From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Sep 11 10:34:51 2018 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 08:34:51 -0700 Subject: VT100 emulation In-Reply-To: References: <680f1479-a0a5-b9c6-19f3-8a510e7ba892@bitsavers.org> <003301d448a4$20d826a0$628873e0$@net> <004601d4492c$9de7cd70$d9b76850$@net> Message-ID: <00ec01d449e4$fc7193e0$f554bba0$@net> > They plan to update Android but so far there's only been one update. > It's currently on Android 7.1. I'm hoping for 8 with Project Treble. > .... > > It also runs Debian Linux and Jolla Sailfish. And this might be its greatest saving grace. Being able to run Linux makes it super useful plus increases the useful life of the device maybe indefinitely as you are not limited to the whims and desires of Google and the app store. -Ali From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Sep 11 10:34:51 2018 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 08:34:51 -0700 Subject: Portable terminals In-Reply-To: References: <004701d4492c$9e9376c0$dbba6440$@net> <008b01d44938$ddfe8c30$99fba490$@net> Message-ID: <00eb01d449e4$fc1a9a40$f44fcec0$@net> > Oh, yes, for a terminal emulator, it's total overkill. .... > It's Android but it runs Linux, so it's a > decent-keyboard-equipped totally flexible device which will talk to > pretty much anything ever. I am in complete agreement on this which is why I also suggested the Sony UX series (e.g. VGN-UX490). That is a full PC capable of running anything (including Win 7) in the palm of your hand. The KB is probably not as nice as the Gemini though based on what I read and the pictures. I just checked the prices and it seems that the prices on the UX have sky rocketed as well. This makes the Gemini a very good alternative for a full featured machine in your pocket if you have the cash. -Ali From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 11 10:57:45 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 08:57:45 -0700 Subject: Beehive terminals In-Reply-To: <0FD62F55-2952-4438-B147-35F39F9115F2@trnsz.com> References: <4DC7E694-96AD-4053-90BB-15545813FA53@trnsz.com> <0FD62F55-2952-4438-B147-35F39F9115F2@trnsz.com> Message-ID: On 09/11/2018 02:35 AM, Jeffrey H. Johnson via cctalk wrote: > The Beehive ATL-008 (ANSI/VT102 terminal) might be an obscure > terminal today, but it holds a special place in my heart as the first > hardware terminal I used extensively, and was advanced (for 1982), > supporting user programming in C. > > It was based on the 68008 and had quite the nice interface, and > extensions like soft keys. Durango used Beehive VT100/VT220 (I'm not sure which)) on their Poppy systems (which are probably even rarer than the terminals). The terminals were re-badged as Durango. I was a bit surprised to find that the Super Bee (of which I was very fond in the day) was re-badged as an HP 2616A. 8008 CPU, with shift-register memory, IIRC. A heavy, slab-sided terminal with a welded (?) aluminum case. Several illuminated keys. --Chuck. From lproven at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 12:09:11 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 19:09:11 +0200 Subject: VT100 emulation In-Reply-To: <00ec01d449e4$fc7193e0$f554bba0$@net> References: <680f1479-a0a5-b9c6-19f3-8a510e7ba892@bitsavers.org> <003301d448a4$20d826a0$628873e0$@net> <004601d4492c$9de7cd70$d9b76850$@net> <00ec01d449e4$fc7193e0$f554bba0$@net> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 17:34, Ali wrote: > > It also runs Debian Linux and Jolla Sailfish. > > And this might be its greatest saving grace. Being able to run Linux makes it super useful plus increases the useful life of the device maybe indefinitely as you are not limited to the whims and desires of Google and the app store. Exactly so, yes. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From marlenekleinoh at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 11:22:45 2018 From: marlenekleinoh at gmail.com (Marlene Klein) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 12:22:45 -0400 Subject: HP 9845A Computer Message-ID: Hi! We have an HP 9845A computer (1977) in working condition. Can we post it on your site? Thank you, Marlene From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Sep 12 02:25:59 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 09:25:59 +0200 (CEST) Subject: HP 9845A Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2018, Marlene Klein wrote: > We have an HP 9845A computer (1977) in working condition. > Can we post it on your site? That sounds illogical. How do you want to electronically post a physical object? ;-) And what site anyway? This is a mailing list. Christian From useddec at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 02:40:53 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 02:40:53 -0500 Subject: Apollo, TEK Message-ID: Apollo motherboard dated 1988 013034 Apollo 008231 memory board Apollo 0121173-001 with daughter board high res color display board Tektronix 46UTXGC1006 3 button mouse, Logictech # is 119-18098-00 Can ship or drop off at VCRMW. I'm starting to get organized!!! Thanks, Paul From Martin.Hepperle at MH-AeroTools.de Wed Sep 12 02:48:53 2018 From: Martin.Hepperle at MH-AeroTools.de (Martin.Hepperle at MH-AeroTools.de) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 09:48:53 +0200 Subject: AlphaWindows - Protocol Information? Message-ID: <008b01d44a6d$0da42960$28ec7c20$@MH-AeroTools.de> Brian, thank you very much for the scans. The scan is very nice and the document looks very interesting. I would like to make some experiments to learn how the system works, but first I have to obtain the missing keyboard for my HP 700 terminal. Just replaced the line filter capacitors to avoid the WIMA-RIFA-sound-n-smell (TM). I have also read out the EPROMs with the operating system and sent them to bitsavers if they want to archive them. Martin (Germany) > -----Original Message----- > ... > 3. Re: AlphaWindows - Protocol Information? (Brian L. Stuart) > ... > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 18:06:59 +0000 (UTC) > From: "Brian L. Stuart" > To: , Al Kossow > Subject: Re: AlphaWindows - Protocol Information? > Message-ID: <651900294.1493946.1536602819815 at mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > On Wed, 9/5/18, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > Martin and I thank you! > > Al and Martin, > I've run the standard though our fancy copier > at the office and had it scan at 400dpi, bilevel > directly to PDF. A quick look with xpdf seems > to be a pretty decent scan. I've put it up here: > > http://cs.drexel.edu/~bls96/alphawindows.pdf > > I also had a sales slick from ADDS for their > 4000/AWT terminal that supported AlphaWindows. > I went ahead and scanned that one in color: > > http://cs.drexel.edu/~bls96/adds_4000awt.pdf > > Hope that helps, > BLS > > > ------------------------------ From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Wed Sep 12 04:08:55 2018 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 19:08:55 +1000 Subject: Portable terminals In-Reply-To: References: <004701d4492c$9e9376c0$dbba6440$@net> <008b01d44938$ddfe8c30$99fba490$@net> Message-ID: <3F138658-AC43-4081-A450-B75A646264C5@kerberos.davies.net.au> > On 11 Sep 2018, at 18:23, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 21:02, Ali via cctalk wrote: > >> p.s. The caveat is of course if you get something like the Gemini. That looks like a very nice machine but at 599 British pounds I rather get a Sony UX series and have a real PC or the HP LX200. The key, at least for me, is finding a no name Android tablet w/ the basics that runs Android 7 or above at that $50 to $75 price point. > > Oh, yes, for a terminal emulator, it's total overkill. > I think if I was in need of a portable vt100 terminal I?d use either my Raspad (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/35410622/raspad-raspberry-pi-tablet-for-your-creative-proje/posts) for full out Geek mode or (far more reliable) a small Chromebook as long as I can get a serial to USB adapter to work. Chromebooks have long battery life and are reasonably cheap. Also come in various sizes (my current one is a 15? as I need a large screen to see things?). Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From lproven at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 05:00:17 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 12:00:17 +0200 Subject: Portable terminals In-Reply-To: <3F138658-AC43-4081-A450-B75A646264C5@kerberos.davies.net.au> References: <004701d4492c$9e9376c0$dbba6440$@net> <008b01d44938$ddfe8c30$99fba490$@net> <3F138658-AC43-4081-A450-B75A646264C5@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Sep 2018 at 11:09, Huw Davies via cctalk wrote: > > I think if I was in need of a portable vt100 terminal I?d use either my Raspad (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/35410622/raspad-raspberry-pi-tablet-for-your-creative-proje/posts) for full out Geek mode or (far more reliable) a small Chromebook as long as I can get a serial to USB adapter to work. Chromebooks have long battery life and are reasonably cheap. Also come in various sizes (my current one is a 15? as I need a large screen to see things?). All true, but not pocket-sized. It's the pocketability which is why I bought a Gemini. It's as pocket-friendly as a phone, but with a real keyboard I can touch-type on. Even entering a Tweet or a text message on a tablet is infuriating to me. I need to correct every other word, at best, and no amount of auto-correction can punctuate correctly. TBH I would not even _try_ a remote terminal session over a touchscreen device -- touchscreens are *way* too infuriating to type on, for me. They're so horrendously inaccurate I wouldn't dare to try entering commands or anything else important. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From peter at vanpeborgh.eu Wed Sep 12 12:59:03 2018 From: peter at vanpeborgh.eu (Peter Van Peborgh) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 18:59:03 +0100 Subject: Unknown US manufacturer - try again Message-ID: <014d01d44ac2$4b7a63d0$e26f2b70$@eu> Guys, See these photos: https://scontent.flhr2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/35682272_10216634445119982_2 53889771863015424_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=74459af2e9232dd433046b2a9d43dedd&oe=5BC F55A0 and https://scontent.flhr2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/36244235_10216691120256825_4 287682979926376448_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=e8ab72feb9eb1cf311c7ef0546318e44&oe=5C 1358C6 The photos are of a board I recently obtained for my collection. I've not, to date, been able to discover who the manufacturers were. It almost certainly US, The chips are week 27 of 1970, NAND gates. Can anyone help? Many thanks, peter || | | | | | | | | Peter Van Peborgh 62 St Mary's Rise Writhlington Radstock Somerset BA3 3PD UK 01761 439 234 || | | | | | | | | From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 13:30:42 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 14:30:42 -0400 Subject: Unknown US manufacturer - try again In-Reply-To: <014d01d44ac2$4b7a63d0$e26f2b70$@eu> References: <014d01d44ac2$4b7a63d0$e26f2b70$@eu> Message-ID: RCA made boards of this color and size, but not an exact match. Same number of pins, similar blue. Not claiming it's RCA, but it's the closest thing I have. Here is one from a 1974ish COSMAC Microkit: http://www.vintagecomputer.net/rca/COSMAC/RCA_GFA-3901808_front.jpg On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 1:59 PM Peter Van Peborgh via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Guys, > > See these photos: > > > https://scontent.flhr2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/35682272_10216634445119982_2 > > 53889771863015424_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=74459af2e9232dd433046b2a9d43dedd&oe=5BC > F55A0 > > > and > > > https://scontent.flhr2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/36244235_10216691120256825_4 > > 287682979926376448_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=e8ab72feb9eb1cf311c7ef0546318e44&oe=5C > 1358C6 > > > The photos are of a board I recently obtained for my collection. I've not, > to date, been able to discover who the manufacturers were. It almost > certainly US, The chips are week 27 of 1970, NAND gates. > > Can anyone help? > > Many thanks, > peter > > > || | | | | | | | | > Peter Van Peborgh > 62 St Mary's Rise > Writhlington Radstock > Somerset BA3 3PD > UK > 01761 439 234 > || | | | | | | | | > > > From turing at shaw.ca Wed Sep 12 13:39:50 2018 From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 12:39:50 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Unknown US manufacturer - try again In-Reply-To: References: <014d01d44ac2$4b7a63d0$e26f2b70$@eu> Message-ID: <28572167.22934244.1536777590174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> The presence of the words 'NAND GATES' imply that this was part of some educational kit for logic training, rather than a part of a system. From: "General Discussion" To: peter at vanpeborgh.eu, "General Discussion" Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 11:30:42 AM Subject: Re: Unknown US manufacturer - try again RCA made boards of this color and size, but not an exact match. Same number of pins, similar blue. Not claiming it's RCA, but it's the closest thing I have. Here is one from a 1974ish COSMAC Microkit: http://www.vintagecomputer.net/rca/COSMAC/RCA_GFA-3901808_front.jpg On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 1:59 PM Peter Van Peborgh via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Guys, > > See these photos: > > > https://scontent.flhr2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/35682272_10216634445119982_2 > > 53889771863015424_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=74459af2e9232dd433046b2a9d43dedd&oe=5BC > F55A0 > > > and > > > https://scontent.flhr2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/36244235_10216691120256825_4 > > 287682979926376448_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=e8ab72feb9eb1cf311c7ef0546318e44&oe=5C > 1358C6 > > > The photos are of a board I recently obtained for my collection. I've not, > to date, been able to discover who the manufacturers were. It almost > certainly US, The chips are week 27 of 1970, NAND gates. > > Can anyone help? > > Many thanks, > peter > > > || | | | | | | | | > Peter Van Peborgh > 62 St Mary's Rise > Writhlington Radstock > Somerset BA3 3PD > UK > 01761 439 234 > || | | | | | | | | > > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 12 14:39:44 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 12:39:44 -0700 Subject: Unknown US manufacturer - try again In-Reply-To: <014d01d44ac2$4b7a63d0$e26f2b70$@eu> References: <014d01d44ac2$4b7a63d0$e26f2b70$@eu> Message-ID: I suspect that it's from a trainer of some sort. Stewart-Warner quad 2-input NAND DTL stuff. So probably not RCA. --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Sep 12 15:08:14 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 20:08:14 +0000 Subject: Unknown US manufacturer - try again In-Reply-To: References: <014d01d44ac2$4b7a63d0$e26f2b70$@eu>, Message-ID: See 946 fairchild for pinout. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctech on behalf of Chuck Guzis via cctech Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 12:39:44 PM To: Peter Van Peborgh via cctech Subject: Re: Unknown US manufacturer - try again I suspect that it's from a trainer of some sort. Stewart-Warner quad 2-input NAND DTL stuff. So probably not RCA. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Sep 12 15:17:16 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 16:17:16 -0400 Subject: Unknown US manufacturer - try again In-Reply-To: <28572167.22934244.1536777590174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> References: <014d01d44ac2$4b7a63d0$e26f2b70$@eu> <28572167.22934244.1536777590174.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <1B6708E8-D9F4-4EBE-AFA5-E7161CDCBB0F@comcast.net> > On Sep 12, 2018, at 2:39 PM, Norman Jaffe via cctech wrote: > > The presence of the words 'NAND GATES' imply that this was part of some educational kit for logic training, rather than a part of a system. Could be. Then again, in the early days simple logic functions were packaged as modules one could buy and plug into connectors to build larger systems. DEC's early logic module products are an example. And I remember in Holland seeing similar stuff, small circuit boards with transistors encased in gray plastic cases, with a 10 or so pin plug at the bottom. These might contain a couple of 2-input NAND gates, or similarly simple elements. And they would be labelled accordingly. The fact that the board has tin rather than gold plated fingers does support the "educational kit" notion; something intended for serious commercial use would be expected to have more reliable connectors. paul From kelly at catcorner.org Wed Sep 12 15:20:35 2018 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 20:20:35 +0000 Subject: Unknown US manufacturer - try again In-Reply-To: <014d01d44ac2$4b7a63d0$e26f2b70$@eu> References: <014d01d44ac2$4b7a63d0$e26f2b70$@eu> Message-ID: Is that a Control Logic logo? page 3-34 of this document: https://inis.iaea.org/collection/NCLCollectionStore/_Public/05/155/5155759.pdf ________________________________ From: cctech on behalf of Peter Van Peborgh via cctech Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 1:59 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Unknown US manufacturer - try again Guys, See these photos: https://scontent.flhr2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/35682272_10216634445119982_2 53889771863015424_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=74459af2e9232dd433046b2a9d43dedd&oe=5BC F55A0 and https://scontent.flhr2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/36244235_10216691120256825_4 287682979926376448_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=e8ab72feb9eb1cf311c7ef0546318e44&oe=5C 1358C6 The photos are of a board I recently obtained for my collection. I've not, to date, been able to discover who the manufacturers were. It almost certainly US, The chips are week 27 of 1970, NAND gates. Can anyone help? Many thanks, peter || | | | | | | | | Peter Van Peborgh 62 St Mary's Rise Writhlington Radstock Somerset BA3 3PD UK 01761 439 234 || | | | | | | | | From kylevowen at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 16:59:11 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 23:59:11 +0200 Subject: Unknown US manufacturer - try again In-Reply-To: References: <014d01d44ac2$4b7a63d0$e26f2b70$@eu> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 23:03 Kelly Leavitt via cctalk wrote: > Is that a Control Logic logo? page 3-34 of this document: > > > https://inis.iaea.org/collection/NCLCollectionStore/_Public/05/155/5155759.pdf Nice work, detective! Even has the same model number prefix on the card. Kyle > > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Sep 12 17:03:11 2018 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 15:03:11 -0700 Subject: Unknown US manufacturer - try again In-Reply-To: <014d01d44ac2$4b7a63d0$e26f2b70$@eu> References: <014d01d44ac2$4b7a63d0$e26f2b70$@eu> Message-ID: <8a8c65ee-98dc-2371-3f68-9f3b9d904927@jwsss.com> On 9/12/2018 10:59 AM, Peter Van Peborgh via cctalk wrote: > Guys, > > See these photos: > > https://scontent.flhr2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/35682272_10216634445119982_2 > 53889771863015424_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=74459af2e9232dd433046b2a9d43dedd&oe=5BC > F55A0 > > and > > https://scontent.flhr2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/36244235_10216691120256825_4 > 287682979926376448_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=e8ab72feb9eb1cf311c7ef0546318e44&oe=5C > 1358C6 > Found in a 1965 manufacturer's volume on Bitsavers.? Used Kelly Leavitt's reference.? looks like they had some products up thru 1974,? but dropped this most likely. This system of products would have been competitive with the DEC Flip Chip concept of the early 60s, and there were a lot of players.? (see others in the 1965 manufacturers reference). This shows reference info, category, and page it was located in the PDF / document. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/computersAndAutomation/196506.pdf Roster of Organizations: Control Logic, Inc., 3 Strathmore Rd., Natick, Mass ? 01762 / 617-655-1170 / *C 65 ?? Welded digital circuit modules; data and con- ?? trol systems; digital training systems / S 70 ?? / E 1961 page 15 (of document and pdf C11. CIRCUITS, LOGICAL (FOR DIGITAL COMPUTERS) Control Logic, Inc., 3 Strathmore ? Rd., Natick, Mass. 01762 / ? digital circuit cards and ? welded modules / DESCR: welded ? encapsulated digital circuit ? modules, open circuit and ? module cards. Germanium and ? silicon circuits, DC to 50 MC ? / - / $5.50 per flipflop to ? $90 per flipflop / Cll page 30 C24. COMPUTERS, DIGITAL ? see C24A page 32 C24A. COMPUTERS, SPECIAL PURPOSE Control Logic, Inc., 3 Strathmore ? Rd., Natick, Mass. 01762 / ? digital systems / DESCR: special ? purpose digital data handling, ? measurement and control systems ? /-/-/ C24A page 33 C26. COMPUTER COMPONENTS ?? see C24A page 33 C30. CONSULTING SERVICES (see also ???? "Survey of Consulting Services") ?? see C24A page 34 C31. CONTROLS ?? see C24A page 35 C33. CONTROLS, SIGNALLING ?? see C24A ? page 35 C34. CONTROLS, SORTING AND COUNTING ?? see C24A page 35 C39. CONVERTERS, INFORMATION ?? see C24A page 36 C53. COUNTERS ?? see C24A page 36 El. EDUCATION ?? see C24A page 38 G2. GENERATORS, FUNCTION, ELECTRONIC ?? see C24A page 39 P2. PANELS, JACK ??? see C24A page 40 Rll. REGISTERS, SHIFT Control Logic, Inc. --see Cll ? and C24A page 43 COMPUTERS and AUTOMATION for JUNE, 1965 From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Sep 12 19:22:50 2018 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 17:22:50 -0700 Subject: Portable terminals In-Reply-To: <053c2b6f-c3ec-99ca-6e30-8b3d3e214a8f@bitsavers.org> References: <004701d4492c$9e9376c0$dbba6440$@net> <008b01d44938$ddfe8c30$99fba490$@net> <053c2b6f-c3ec-99ca-6e30-8b3d3e214a8f@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1F64DFD1-4CCB-4EAF-AB2D-B86B8805BD16@reanimators.org> On Sep 10, 2018, at 12:18, Al Kossow wrote: > As sad as it sounds, I'm thinking now it may make sense to gut the electronics and just use the case, lcd > and kb to make a dumb terminal. At least then you don't have to screw around with serial dongles. This makes me wonder how much serial dongle you?re willing to screw around with. 2001?s Toshiba laptop with Windows Me (Harder) came with no serial ports except the USB kind (in spite of the specifications given on the seller?s web page). It did have two PCMCIA slots in which I installed PCMCIA serial cards. Yes, two, I sometimes used it as a pass-through monitor for SLIP/PPP traffic. I like the HP 200LX for portable serial terminal purposes, and have never stretched the built-in Datacomm app?s VT100 emulation to the point of noticing incorrect emulation. But it meant having to carry at least the peculiar cable that brought its port out to DE9S (suitable for connection to PC/AT serial port), and probably a couple DE9P-to-DB25 adapters (for ?printer? and ?modem?), and maybe a breakout box too. I liked the 100LX too. Similar hardware and software. I cannot recall any improvements to the Datacomm app in the 200LX. The 95LX has two problems. It?s basically a three-wire serial interface with no hardware flow control. And it is designed to run on battery power, and it shows sometimes. I had trouble getting it to work with a Telebit Qblazer (also battery-powered) until I got out the soldering iron and made up a single adapter to go between the two instead of a chain or two or three adapters. One side or the other or maybe both just didn?t have enough oomph to punch through all those connectors. -Frank McConnell From useddec at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 20:05:56 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 20:05:56 -0500 Subject: Apollo, TEK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Another Apollo boardpaer # 7790 Looks like it was made by INTERPHASE WNC 5190 On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 2:40 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > Apollo motherboard dated 1988 013034 > > Apollo 008231 memory board > > Apollo 0121173-001 with daughter board high res color display board > > Tektronix 46UTXGC1006 3 button mouse, Logictech # is 119-18098-00 > > Can ship or drop off at VCRMW. > > I'm starting to get organized!!! > > Thanks, Paul > > From useddec at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 20:08:59 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 20:08:59 -0500 Subject: Kennedy 9610 Available at VCFMW. Message-ID: Please contact me off list. Thanks, Paul From allisonportable at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 20:11:14 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 21:11:14 -0400 Subject: Unknown US manufacturer - try again In-Reply-To: <8a8c65ee-98dc-2371-3f68-9f3b9d904927@jwsss.com> References: <014d01d44ac2$4b7a63d0$e26f2b70$@eu> <8a8c65ee-98dc-2371-3f68-9f3b9d904927@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <9631ac3a-e0c3-b9ec-5211-1d1feb6441d0@gmail.com> On 09/12/2018 06:03 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > On 9/12/2018 10:59 AM, Peter Van Peborgh via cctalk wrote: >> Guys, >> >> See these photos: >> >> https://scontent.flhr2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/35682272_10216634445119982_2 >> >> 53889771863015424_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=74459af2e9232dd433046b2a9d43dedd&oe=5BC >> >> F55A0 >> >> and >> >> https://scontent.flhr2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/36244235_10216691120256825_4 >> >> 287682979926376448_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=e8ab72feb9eb1cf311c7ef0546318e44&oe=5C >> >> 1358C6 >> > Found in a 1965 manufacturer's volume on Bitsavers.? Used Kelly > Leavitt's reference.? looks like they > had some products up thru 1974,? but dropped this most likely. > > This system of products would have been competitive with the DEC Flip > Chip concept of the early 60s, > and there were a lot of players.? (see others in the 1965 > manufacturers reference). > > This shows reference info, category, and page it was located in the > PDF / document. > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/computersAndAutomation/196506.pdf > > > > Roster of Organizations: > > Control Logic, Inc., 3 Strathmore Rd., Natick, Mass > ? 01762 / 617-655-1170 / *C 65 > ?? Welded digital circuit modules; data and con- > ?? trol systems; digital training systems / S 70 > ?? / E 1961 > page 15 (of document and pdf > > C11. CIRCUITS, LOGICAL (FOR DIGITAL COMPUTERS) > > Control Logic, Inc., 3 Strathmore > ? Rd., Natick, Mass. 01762 / > ? digital circuit cards and > ? welded modules / DESCR: welded > ? encapsulated digital circuit > ? modules, open circuit and > ? module cards. Germanium and > ? silicon circuits, DC to 50 MC > ? / - / $5.50 per flipflop to > ? $90 per flipflop / Cll > > page 30 > > C24. COMPUTERS, DIGITAL > ? see C24A > > page 32 > > C24A. COMPUTERS, SPECIAL PURPOSE > > Control Logic, Inc., 3 Strathmore > ? Rd., Natick, Mass. 01762 / > ? digital systems / DESCR: special > ? purpose digital data handling, > ? measurement and control systems > ? /-/-/ C24A > > page 33 > > C26. COMPUTER COMPONENTS > ?? see C24A > > page 33 > > C30. CONSULTING SERVICES (see also > ???? "Survey of Consulting Services") > ?? see C24A > > page 34 > > C31. CONTROLS > ?? see C24A > > page 35 > > C33. CONTROLS, SIGNALLING > ?? see C24A > > ? page 35 > > C34. CONTROLS, SORTING AND COUNTING > ?? see C24A > > page 35 > > C39. CONVERTERS, INFORMATION > ?? see C24A > > page 36 > > C53. COUNTERS > ?? see C24A > > page 36 > > El. EDUCATION > ?? see C24A > > page 38 > > G2. GENERATORS, FUNCTION, ELECTRONIC > ?? see C24A > > page 39 > > P2. PANELS, JACK > ??? see C24A > > page 40 > > Rll. REGISTERS, SHIFT > > Control Logic, Inc. --see Cll > ? and C24A > > page 43 > > > > COMPUTERS and AUTOMATION for JUNE, 1965 Small world, Built a 8008 system for a company I was with back in early 74 using their board set and backplane.? Allison From pete at petelancashire.com Wed Sep 12 20:18:14 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 18:18:14 -0700 Subject: HP 2000 / 2100 emulator Message-ID: Here's what I'd like to do. I have both a teletype 33 and 35. What would be fun is the foot in the pedestal a emulator that lets me pretend I am logging into a 2000 or 2100 and I can do basic and save files. One of those files being what I think was called to Star Wars or something like that. Basically replay my youth on a 35 which I had access to before 33. From bbrown314 at comcast.net Wed Sep 12 21:01:19 2018 From: bbrown314 at comcast.net (Comcast) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 21:01:19 -0500 Subject: HP 2000 / 2100 emulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <67559D67-D6DD-4A44-8160-ABF5035C8850@comcast.net> It?s possible to run hp2000 access (or earlier versions) using simh. You?d just need an interface for your teletypes. -Bob > On Sep 12, 2018, at 8:18 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote: > > Here's what I'd like to do. I have both a teletype 33 and 35. What would be > fun is the foot in the pedestal a emulator that lets me pretend I am > logging into a 2000 or 2100 and I can do basic and save files. One of those > files being what I think was called to Star Wars or something like that. > Basically replay my youth on a 35 which I had access to before 33. From jdbryan at acm.org Wed Sep 12 23:13:26 2018 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2018 00:13:26 -0400 Subject: HP 2000 / 2100 emulator In-Reply-To: <67559D67-D6DD-4A44-8160-ABF5035C8850@comcast.net> References: , <67559D67-D6DD-4A44-8160-ABF5035C8850@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wednesday, September 12, 2018 at 21:01, Comcast via cctalk wrote: > It?s possible to run hp2000 access (or earlier versions) using simh. > > You?d just need an interface for your teletypes. Specifically, SIMH's HP2100 simulator will run HP 2000E, F, and Access Time-Shared BASIC with external terminals connected via the host machine's serial ports, and a current-loop-to-RS-232 adapter would permit connection to the Teletype. -- Dave From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 01:05:21 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Marc) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 23:05:21 -0700 Subject: HP 9845A Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <832DA653-A66D-40BE-9F5C-0B566219F333@gmail.com> Christian you are being silly. Yes Marlene, you can definitely advertise it here and will probably get quite a few interested people. People do this regularly. This list does not take picture attachments however, you?d have to post them somewhere else and give links. Marc From: cctalk on behalf of "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Reply-To: Christian Corti , "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Date: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 at 12:26 AM To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Subject: Re: HP 9845A Computer On Tue, 11 Sep 2018, Marlene Klein wrote: We have an HP 9845A computer (1977) in working condition. Can we post it on your site? That sounds illogical. How do you want to electronically post a physical object? ;-) And what site anyway? This is a mailing list. Christian From kelly at catcorner.org Thu Sep 13 08:45:51 2018 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2018 13:45:51 +0000 Subject: Unknown US manufacturer - try again In-Reply-To: References: <014d01d44ac2$4b7a63d0$e26f2b70$@eu> , Message-ID: > Is that a Control Logic logo? page 3-34 of this document: > > > https://inis.iaea.org/collection/NCLCollectionStore/_Public/05/155/5155759.pdf The September 18th, 1979 issue of Info World mentions "the Control Logic Industrial Microcomputers, Interfaces, and Logic Modules catalog". That would be interesting to see. Kelly From kelly at catcorner.org Thu Sep 13 08:48:01 2018 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2018 13:48:01 +0000 Subject: Unknown US manufacturer - try again In-Reply-To: References: <014d01d44ac2$4b7a63d0$e26f2b70$@eu> , , Message-ID: > Is that a Control Logic logo? page 3-34 of this document: > > > https://inis.iaea.org/collection/NCLCollectionStore/_Public/05/155/5155759.pdf Make that the September 19th, 1979 (not September 18th), issue of Info World mentions "the Control Logic Industrial Microcomputers, Interfaces, and Logic Modules catalog". That would be interesting to see. Kelly From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 13 14:56:10 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2018 12:56:10 -0700 Subject: Unknown US manufacturer - try again In-Reply-To: References: <014d01d44ac2$4b7a63d0$e26f2b70$@eu> Message-ID: we don't have much from this company, just a few modules http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102735124 From peter at vanpeborgh.eu Thu Sep 13 14:08:43 2018 From: peter at vanpeborgh.eu (Peter Van Peborgh) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2018 20:08:43 +0100 Subject: Unknown US manufacturer - victory! Message-ID: <022601d44b95$310be360$9323aa20$@eu> Many thanks to all for the detective work. The page 3-34 mentioned is in a Lawrence Livermore course manual on Fundamentals of Digital Sytems Training. I love you all and will try to test you again soon. peter || | | | | | | | | Peter Van Peborgh 62 St Mary's Rise Writhlington Radstock Somerset BA3 3PD UK 01761 439 234 || | | | | | | | | From Richard.Sheppard at telus.com Thu Sep 13 23:41:30 2018 From: Richard.Sheppard at telus.com (Richard Sheppard) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 04:41:30 +0000 Subject: HP 9845A Computer Message-ID: My comment was going to be "you just did :>)" Richard Sheppard From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Fri Sep 14 03:41:46 2018 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 10:41:46 +0200 Subject: Cossor DIDS 400 needs saving ( Paris ) Message-ID: <838af5e8-3b01-ff91-a8e7-3bc1c128ae66@greenmail.ch> This link from fr.comp.ordinosaures is interesting http://f6aoj.ao-journal.com/crbst_752.html Would be a shame if this really ancient videoterminal goes to waste. As an aside : what a beautiful name the french have for there old computers : "ordinosaures" Jos From tingox at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 06:00:40 2018 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 13:00:40 +0200 Subject: HP 9845A Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 8:05 PM Marlene Klein via cctalk wrote: > > Hi! > > We have an HP 9845A computer (1977) in working condition. > Can we post it on your site? You might want to disclose the (rough) location of the machine - where in the world is it? And also if you are selling it or giving it away. It helps getting people interested. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From peterbrown10 at hotmail.com Fri Sep 14 12:20:29 2018 From: peterbrown10 at hotmail.com (Peter Brown) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 17:20:29 +0000 Subject: HP 9845A Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'd be interested too if the machine is in Europe ... Peter ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of cctalk-request at classiccmp.org Sent: 14 September 2018 17:00 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 48, Issue 14 Send cctalk mailing list submissions to cctalk at classiccmp.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.classiccmp.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fcctalk&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cc9d2ffaf77984000950b08d61a6382bd%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636725412027979653&sdata=66DoiBn8Fl0Ro20q87DP1eaGE7ezC3QNi6iRcVaH3oE%3D&reserved=0 or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to cctalk-request at classiccmp.org You can reach the person managing the list at cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Sep 14 13:09:39 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 14:09:39 -0400 Subject: HP 9845A Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <165d9462bf9-1ec3-1ff9@webjas-vaa016.srv.aolmail.net> I am interested if machine is? in? Arizona! ? Ed# www.smec.org? ? ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of cctalk-request at classiccmp.org Sent: 14 September 2018 17:00 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 48, Issue 14 Send cctalk mailing list submissions to cctalk at classiccmp.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.classiccmp.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fcctalk&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cc9d2ffaf77984000950b08d61a6382bd%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636725412027979653&sdata=66DoiBn8Fl0Ro20q87DP1eaGE7ezC3QNi6iRcVaH3oE%3D&reserved=0 or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to cctalk-request at classiccmp.org You can reach the person managing the list at cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 14 13:35:02 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 11:35:02 -0700 Subject: favor at vcfmw Message-ID: <5ee4b21e-82ab-2f5d-ccf6-bfdb623d17f5@bitsavers.org> If Paul brings some Dilog qbus boards, could someone look for a DQ614 for me? I've been trying to find out if he has one, and haven't been able to do it. From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Sep 14 13:56:00 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 14:56:00 -0400 Subject: wanted: Cromemco Cyclops drop me note offlist thanks Ed# www.smecc.org Message-ID: <165d9709cae-1ec1-2380@webjas-vad192.srv.aolmail.net> wanted: Cromemco Cyclops drop me? ?note offlist? thanks? Ed#? www.smecc.org From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Fri Sep 14 14:55:13 2018 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 14:55:13 -0500 Subject: I finally got to see a LMI Lambda in real life... Message-ID: <6102FF16-D55F-4E20-9760-8FEE2D85AF50@lunar-tokyo.net> Two of them in fact, and a CADR - In my garage, no less! The Lambdas are in bad shape, and the CADR is in very bad shape and missing its console and disk. It?s going to take awhile to get them cleaned up and see how viable they are. On the plus side, I got a some spares and debugging equipment, and I have a working PDP-11 to debug the CADR with if it gets that far, so there?s a good chance I should be able to get at least one working. I?ll post more as things develop. From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Sep 14 17:10:49 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 15:10:49 -0700 Subject: I finally got to see a LMI Lambda in real life... In-Reply-To: <6102FF16-D55F-4E20-9760-8FEE2D85AF50@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <6102FF16-D55F-4E20-9760-8FEE2D85AF50@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: Without the console doing much with the CADR is going to be tough. Not having the disk isn?t too terrible as the basic contents (uCode and system code) are available. There?s even an emulator for the CADR though I don?t have the link handy at the moment. Ping me if you have trouble finding it. Good luck with the LMIs! I have several Symbolics machines (3620, 2 3640, 3650) that are more or less complete. The 3620 works (at least the last time I powered it on it did?not enough time to ?play?). At least one of the 3640s has shown signs of life and the 3650 (which came back to me after a vacation of 10 years or so) needs some ?love? but it?ll be worth it because in addition to the normal console it has the ?good? color frame buffer! The biggest issue for me is consoles. I have 3 but one is in need of repair. TTFN - Guy > On Sep 14, 2018, at 12:55 PM, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk wrote: > > Two of them in fact, and a CADR - In my garage, no less! > > The Lambdas are in bad shape, and the CADR is in very bad shape and missing its console and disk. It?s going to take awhile to get them cleaned up and see how viable they are. > > On the plus side, I got a some spares and debugging equipment, and I have a working PDP-11 to debug the CADR with if it gets that far, so there?s a good chance I should be able to get at least one working. > > I?ll post more as things develop. > From john at ziaspace.com Fri Sep 14 23:27:28 2018 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 04:27:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: AlphaServer CPU compatibility question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, list, I've lurked here a bit but haven't posted much yet. I'm now working on a system that I think people here might know something about. Can anyone here tell me whether the CPU modules from an AlphaServer ES45 will work in an AlphaServer DS25? According to Wikipedia, they're both EV68CB CPUs. Some sites (including HP's QuickSpecs) list the 1.25 GHz ES45 CPU card as containing 16 megs of cache, but some places list the 1.25 GHz card with just 8 megs, like the 1 GHz card. If I could find a 1.25 GHz CPU card with 16 megs of cache, and if it'd work, I think it'd be a worthwhile upgrade to my DS25. Thoughts? Thanks, John From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 07:16:26 2018 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 07:16:26 -0500 Subject: ISO Tandy 1000 EX 360k floppy drive Message-ID: Folks, Trying my luck again. Looking for an external floppy drive for a Tandy 1000 EX XT clone.. They can be recognised by their white case and 30-pin female card edge connector cable. Please let me know if you have or know of one. Been looking for many years. Thanks, Bill On Sep 14, 2018 11:27 PM, "John Klos via cctalk" wrote: Hi, list, I've lurked here a bit but haven't posted much yet. I'm now working on a system that I think people here might know something about. Can anyone here tell me whether the CPU modules from an AlphaServer ES45 will work in an AlphaServer DS25? According to Wikipedia, they're both EV68CB CPUs. Some sites (including HP's QuickSpecs) list the 1.25 GHz ES45 CPU card as containing 16 megs of cache, but some places list the 1.25 GHz card with just 8 megs, like the 1 GHz card. If I could find a 1.25 GHz CPU card with 16 megs of cache, and if it'd work, I think it'd be a worthwhile upgrade to my DS25. Thoughts? Thanks, John From carlojpisani at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 09:14:53 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 16:14:53 +0200 Subject: DEC lk201 keyboard for DEC Terminal vt220 In-Reply-To: <838af5e8-3b01-ff91-a8e7-3bc1c128ae66@greenmail.ch> References: <838af5e8-3b01-ff91-a8e7-3bc1c128ae66@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: hi about DEC lk201 for DEC Terminal vt220, I am looking for information about - the pinout of the connector (it should be 4 pins, sort of serial) - the protocol used - key keymap thanks in advance From pbirkel at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 09:59:00 2018 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 10:59:00 -0400 Subject: DEC lk201 keyboard for DEC Terminal vt220 In-Reply-To: References: <838af5e8-3b01-ff91-a8e7-3bc1c128ae66@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: <086201d44d04$a35e2110$ea1a6330$@gmail.com> Some useful information: http://www.netbsd.org/docs/Hardware/Machines/DEC/lk201.html -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Carlo Pisani via cctalk Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2018 10:15 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: DEC lk201 keyboard for DEC Terminal vt220 hi about DEC lk201 for DEC Terminal vt220, I am looking for information about - the pinout of the connector (it should be 4 pins, sort of serial) - the protocol used - key keymap thanks in advance From imp at bsdimp.com Sat Sep 15 10:19:08 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 09:19:08 -0600 Subject: DEC lk201 keyboard for DEC Terminal vt220 In-Reply-To: References: <838af5e8-3b01-ff91-a8e7-3bc1c128ae66@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: I wrote a program years ago to read this an use it as an X11 or console keyboard. NetBSD has a driver too. Warner On Sat, Sep 15, 2018, 8:15 AM Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > hi > about DEC lk201 for DEC Terminal vt220, > I am looking for information about > - the pinout of the connector (it should be 4 pins, sort of serial) > - the protocol used > - key keymap > > thanks in advance > From sieler at allegro.com Sat Sep 15 22:14:48 2018 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 20:14:48 -0700 Subject: Free: IBM Travelstar 8E External Hard Drive Message-ID: Free (pickup in Cupertino, or pay for packing/shipping via PayPal). IBM Travelstar 8E External Hard Drive. New in box. Includes the PCMCIA card and cable. Model: DTZN-0810SP Capacity: 8,100 MByte Note: as sold new by IBM, including the instruction sheet which says: power is provided by the PC Card, no A/C adapter is needed, and that you should ignore the green power switch on the box. First offline *email* to sieler at allegro.com gets it. thanks, Stan From sieler at allegro.com Sat Sep 15 23:01:46 2018 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 21:01:46 -0700 Subject: Free: flash cards / SRAM cards (PC Card, PCMCIA cards) Message-ID: Free for pickup in Cupertino (or, pay for packing/shipping via PayPal): Some PC Card memory/flash-drive cards... not tested (Oddly, my 2016 Mac Pro Laptop has no PC Card slot! :) (no, really, I don't recall getting a chance to test them when I bought them over the last 10+ years, either, sorry!) 5 items: PMC SRAM Card 2 MB P/N SM002M-NN (needs CR2325 battery, no sign of corrosion) Fujitsu 64KByte SRAM Memory Card (ICMC v4.0) Intel FLASH Series 2 10 MByte Memory Card (1993) Simple Technologies (new in box) FLASH Storage ATA-800MB Type I PCMCIA P/N STI-ATAFL/800 Simple Technologies (new in box) FLASH Storage ATA-800MB Type I PCMCIA P/N STI-ATAFL/800 First one to ask, via offline email to sieler at allegro.com, gets them. As usual, I'll notify the first couple of responders personally. thanks, Stan From sieler at allegro.com Sat Sep 15 23:04:33 2018 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 21:04:33 -0700 Subject: Free: IDE Flashdrive 3.5" Message-ID: Hi, Still cleaning my storage/office ... I have a new-looking 3.5" solid state drive for free, pickup in Cupertino (or pay for packing/shipping via PayPal). SanDisk 3.5" Flashdrive 20 MB (IDE) model: SB35B-20 (possibly unused; in anti-static bag, seal unbroken) thanks, Stan From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Sun Sep 16 05:57:02 2018 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2018 12:57:02 +0200 Subject: DEC lk201 keyboard for DEC Terminal vt220 In-Reply-To: References: <838af5e8-3b01-ff91-a8e7-3bc1c128ae66@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: <20180916105702.pqosq36tev4u3od7@lug-owl.de> On Sat, 2018-09-15 16:14:53 +0200, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > hi > about DEC lk201 for DEC Terminal vt220, > I am looking for information about > - the pinout of the connector (it should be 4 pins, sort of serial) > - the protocol used > - key keymap There is extensive documentation around. If you look at Linux's lkkbd.c[1], you'll find the pinout, how to build an adaptor to use it on a regular serial port and a pointer to some scanned PDF[2] where the hardware and protocol is descriped in depth. MfG, JBG [1] https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/tree/drivers/input/keyboard/lkkbd.c?id=HEAD [2] https://vt100.net/manx/details/1,21 -- From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Sep 16 09:02:27 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2018 10:02:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: I finally got to see a LMI Lambda in real life... Message-ID: <20180916140227.32C5518C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Daniel Seagraves > Two of them in fact, and a CADR - In my garage, no less! Neat! Can you say anything about how they came to you? > and I have a working PDP-11 to debug the CADR with Was that part of the package, or did you already have it? Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Sep 16 09:33:31 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2018 07:33:31 -0700 Subject: Free: flash cards / SRAM cards (PC Card, PCMCIA cards) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8895b94d-8bbf-2c44-98e5-4fd5fa9f650b@bitsavers.org> On 9/15/18 9:01 PM, Stan Sieler via cctalk wrote: > PMC SRAM Card 2 MB P/N SM002M-NN (needs CR2325 battery, no sign of > corrosion) Anyone know if these are compatible with HP 8570x cards, the kind used with HP 8920A communications analyzers? From carlojpisani at gmail.com Sun Sep 16 10:01:48 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2018 17:01:48 +0200 Subject: VT240, VT241 are graphics? what does it mean? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: hi so, in a description of DEC terminals, I read "VT240 and VT241 are graphics terminals, supporting Digital?s ReGIS graphics and Tektronix vector graphics" what does it mean? which kind of graphics? Can they draw lines? I am googling for "Digital?s ReGIS graphics" and "Tektronix vector graphics", but I have only found dead links =( From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Sep 16 10:24:55 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2018 09:24:55 -0600 Subject: VT240, VT241 are graphics? what does it mean? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 16, 2018, 9:02 AM Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > hi > so, in a description of DEC terminals, I read "VT240 and VT241 are > graphics terminals, supporting Digital?s ReGIS graphics and Tektronix > vector graphics" > > what does it mean? which kind of graphics? Can they draw lines? > > I am googling for "Digital?s ReGIS graphics" and "Tektronix vector > graphics", but I have only found dead links =( > The terminals were text based, until a certain escape sequence was sent. Then it would interpret everything as a tek command. Different escape sequences went into regis mode which were similar, but more powerful. These were done mostly to draw plots or other graphs at the time. I believe Regis added bitnaps to the vector graphics (which just means drawing line by only specifying their end points and other details). Warner Warner > From pbirkel at gmail.com Sun Sep 16 11:14:05 2018 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2018 12:14:05 -0400 Subject: VT240, VT241 are graphics? what does it mean? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <095a01d44dd8$4acd24e0$e0676ea0$@gmail.com> See Bitsavers for: EK-VT125-GI-001_VT125_ReGIS_Primer_May82.pdf AA-K336A-TK_GIGI_ReGIS_Handbook_Jun81.pdf -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Carlo Pisani via cctalk Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2018 11:02 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: VT240, VT241 are graphics? what does it mean? hi so, in a description of DEC terminals, I read "VT240 and VT241 are graphics terminals, supporting Digital?s ReGIS graphics and Tektronix vector graphics" what does it mean? which kind of graphics? Can they draw lines? I am googling for "Digital?s ReGIS graphics" and "Tektronix vector graphics", but I have only found dead links =( From pbirkel at gmail.com Sun Sep 16 11:17:19 2018 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2018 12:17:19 -0400 Subject: VT240, VT241 are graphics? what does it mean? References: Message-ID: <096101d44dd8$be6ce7f0$3b46b7d0$@gmail.com> And (of course!): TR-95_Fundamentals_Of_ReGIS_Jul79.pdf -----Original Message----- From: Paul Birkel [mailto:pbirkel at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2018 12:14 PM To: Carlo Pisani; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: VT240, VT241 are graphics? what does it mean? See Bitsavers for: EK-VT125-GI-001_VT125_ReGIS_Primer_May82.pdf AA-K336A-TK_GIGI_ReGIS_Handbook_Jun81.pdf -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Carlo Pisani via cctalk Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2018 11:02 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: VT240, VT241 are graphics? what does it mean? hi so, in a description of DEC terminals, I read "VT240 and VT241 are graphics terminals, supporting Digital?s ReGIS graphics and Tektronix vector graphics" what does it mean? which kind of graphics? Can they draw lines? I am googling for "Digital?s ReGIS graphics" and "Tektronix vector graphics", but I have only found dead links =( From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Sep 16 12:23:06 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2018 10:23:06 -0700 Subject: VT240, VT241 are graphics? what does it mean? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The most common serial comms line graphics protocol evolved from the Tektronix 401x storage scope displays, sometimes refered to as the "GS" protocol for the escape sequence it used. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tektronix_4010 There are tons of manuals on bitsavers about them. Just about everyone in the graphics terminal business had to support Tek protocol, including the company I worked for (AED). On 9/16/18 8:01 AM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > "Tektronix vector > graphics", but I have only found dead links =( > From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Sep 16 20:45:17 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2018 18:45:17 -0700 Subject: SAGE memory plane Message-ID: <1cbf3d2d-42a6-386c-1c5a-030b226c22af@bitsavers.org> ebay https://www.ebay.com/itm/232927847019 https://secretsofcoldwarradar.omeka.net/exhibits/show/cold-war-radar-technology/item/4 can someone identify exactly what this box was called, when it was deployed, and what training manual they are referring to? we have a couple http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102633198 and they keep getting mis-identified. From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Sep 16 22:57:10 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2018 22:57:10 -0500 Subject: SAGE memory plane In-Reply-To: <1cbf3d2d-42a6-386c-1c5a-030b226c22af@bitsavers.org> References: <1cbf3d2d-42a6-386c-1c5a-030b226c22af@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5B9F2616.30402@pico-systems.com> On 09/16/2018 08:45 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > ebay https://www.ebay.com/itm/232927847019 > > https://secretsofcoldwarradar.omeka.net/exhibits/show/cold-war-radar-technology/item/4 > > can someone identify exactly what this box was called, when it was deployed, and what training manual they are referring to? > > > we have a couple > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102633198 > > and they keep getting mis-identified. > > > The SAGE was the AN/FSQ-7 computer, possibly the sub-units had some IBM designation, although a quick scan of some bitsavers docs didn't turn that up. The SAGE main system were built on gigantic racks covered with modules with a row of tubes on them. So, no housing as we normally would expect. But, I think the core memory was different, and was built into a housing. I think the memory unit had few tubes in it, needed shielding and probably used controlled temperature, so a housing made more sense. But, that unit definitely matches what the SAGE core memory units looked like. Jon From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Sep 17 00:20:12 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2018 22:20:12 -0700 Subject: I finally got to see a LMI Lambda in real life... In-Reply-To: References: <6102FF16-D55F-4E20-9760-8FEE2D85AF50@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: <18963558-B57E-431D-821D-515B9A78363F@shiresoft.com> I finally dug up the link to the CADR stuff (there?s probably some other useful links there as well). http://www.unlambda.com/index.php?n=Main.Symbolics . The CADR emulator and all of the microcode and OS (disk) images are in the download directory. Even if you don?t use the emulator, if you ever want to get the CADR running again you?ll need the microcode and OS images. TTFN - Guy > On Sep 14, 2018, at 3:10 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: > > Without the console doing much with the CADR is going to be tough. Not having the disk isn?t too terrible as the basic contents (uCode and system code) are available. There?s even an emulator for the CADR though I don?t have the link handy at the moment. Ping me if you have trouble finding it. > > Good luck with the LMIs! > > I have several Symbolics machines (3620, 2 3640, 3650) that are more or less complete. The 3620 works (at least the last time I powered it on it did?not enough time to ?play?). At least one of the 3640s has shown signs of life and the 3650 (which came back to me after a vacation of 10 years or so) needs some ?love? but it?ll be worth it because in addition to the normal console it has the ?good? color frame buffer! The biggest issue for me is consoles. I have 3 but one is in need of repair. > > TTFN - Guy > >> On Sep 14, 2018, at 12:55 PM, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk wrote: >> >> Two of them in fact, and a CADR - In my garage, no less! >> >> The Lambdas are in bad shape, and the CADR is in very bad shape and missing its console and disk. It?s going to take awhile to get them cleaned up and see how viable they are. >> >> On the plus side, I got a some spares and debugging equipment, and I have a working PDP-11 to debug the CADR with if it gets that far, so there?s a good chance I should be able to get at least one working. >> >> I?ll post more as things develop. >> > From sieler at allegro.com Mon Sep 17 00:25:40 2018 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2018 22:25:40 -0700 Subject: Free: flash cards / SRAM cards (PC Card, PCMCIA cards) Message-ID: These have been claimed, and two people are in line behind the first person. thanks. Stan From seefriek at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 10:04:50 2018 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 11:04:50 -0400 Subject: VT100 emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Al Kossow > > a 7" android tablet based on the wondermedia wm8650 SOC > ... > these things are so old they've disappeared from the market > Well...not 7", but there is this: https://blackberrymobile.com/product/blackberry-key2/ KJ From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 10:43:02 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 17:43:02 +0200 Subject: VT100 emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Sep 2018 at 17:05, Ken Seefried via cctalk wrote: > > Well...not 7", but there is this: > https://blackberrymobile.com/product/blackberry-key2/ True. I have not had or used an Android Blackberry with a hardware keyboard, but I did have a Passport, the older QNX-based device. One thing to note about the keyboard is that is has no punctuation marks at all. It only has letters, backspace, return, Alt and Shift. No keys for numbers or . , ' ? & * | > < etc. Some of these things are accessible with Alt, some with softkeys on the display, and some will be hard to find at all. It was great for entering English text but I suspect it would be a real handful for shell commands or in a terminal emulator. The Psion/Gemini keyboard doesn't have many, just these: , / ' ~ . ? ... and it causes problems for non-English users. It has no keys for ?, ?, ?, ?, ? and so on. There are workarounds but users of languages with many diacritics tend to be very used to having dedicated keys for these things. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Mon Sep 17 12:29:13 2018 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 12:29:13 -0500 Subject: Further Lisp Machine Developments In-Reply-To: <6102FF16-D55F-4E20-9760-8FEE2D85AF50@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <6102FF16-D55F-4E20-9760-8FEE2D85AF50@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: <04870414-704E-41C7-BFF3-561A8DD78BBC@lunar-tokyo.net> I spun up a blog for posting the ongoing status of things; It?s at https://www.orinrin.land/lispm/ From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Sep 17 12:53:51 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 13:53:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Further Lisp Machine Developments Message-ID: <20180917175351.3434018C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Daniel Seagraves > I spun up a blog for posting the ongoing status of things; Cool! Thanks! Very interesting... How many cards came with the CADR? My memory is dim, are there just memory and I/O cards, or was the disk controller on a separate card from other I/O? I wonder how many physical CADRs are left in the world? Anyone have a list? Noel From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Mon Sep 17 12:54:34 2018 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 17:54:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Looking for two DEC H445 power bricks for PDP 11/40 project References: <1374244254.10477991.1537206874069.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1374244254.10477991.1537206874069@mail.yahoo.com> Hello list, last year, I was able to obtain a BA11-F chassis for my PDP 11/40 build-up project. The power supply to run a system in basic configuration is complete except for two H745 bricks (delivering -15V) which are still missing. I'd be very happy, if anybody could consider parting with one or two. Location is in Germany. Please contact me off-list. Thanks a lot in advance for anybody of you helping me to work towards a running my first very classic PDP-11! Best regards,Pierre ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Sep 17 13:06:01 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 11:06:01 -0700 Subject: SPARC Solaris 1.1.2 running in MAME Message-ID: on a simulated SPARCstation 1 https://forums.bannister.org/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=113948#Post113947 From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Sep 17 13:18:38 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 14:18:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Looking for two DEC H445 power bricks for PDP 11/40 project Message-ID: <20180917181838.7F0F018C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Pierre Gebhardt > two H745 bricks (delivering -15V) which are still missing. I'd be very > happy, if anybody could consider parting with one or two. Location is > in Germany. There should be some on eBait; mildly expensive, but if you get them from the US, the shipping is going to be a fair amount anyway... Noel From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Mon Sep 17 13:54:18 2018 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 18:54:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Looking for two DEC H445 power bricks for PDP 11/40 project In-Reply-To: <20180917181838.7F0F018C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180917181838.7F0F018C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <1968014527.10533910.1537210458882@mail.yahoo.com> Hello Noel, thanks for your quick reply. There are indeed some DEC power brick models on epay, but none regarding the H745. All the best, Pierre ? ? > From: Pierre Gebhardt ? ? > two H745 bricks (delivering -15V) which are still missing. I'd be very ? ? > happy, if anybody could consider parting with one or two. Location is ? ? > in Germany. There should be some on eBait; mildly expensive, but if you get them from the US, the shipping is going to be a fair amount anyway... ??? Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 14:05:18 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 15:05:18 -0400 Subject: Looking for two DEC H445 power bricks for PDP 11/40 project In-Reply-To: <1968014527.10533910.1537210458882@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20180917181838.7F0F018C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1968014527.10533910.1537210458882@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: H745's are harder to find. I have at least one that needs service but I am located in the USA and I have no clear idea what's wrong with it. Is it that you have zero h745's at all or you have a bad one? Is there a typical point of failure for these? If so, I'd try to track down a bad one and fix it. Probably a lot cheaper. b On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 2:54 PM P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: > Hello Noel, > > thanks for your quick reply. There are indeed some DEC power brick models > on epay, but none regarding the H745. > > All the best, > Pierre > > > > > > From: Pierre Gebhardt > > > two H745 bricks (delivering -15V) which are still missing. I'd be > very > > happy, if anybody could consider parting with one or two. Location is > > in Germany. > > There should be some on eBait; mildly expensive, but if you get them from > the US, the shipping is going to be a fair amount anyway... > > Noel > From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 14:07:22 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 15:07:22 -0400 Subject: Looking for two DEC H445 power bricks for PDP 11/40 project In-Reply-To: References: <20180917181838.7F0F018C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1968014527.10533910.1537210458882@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: here is a photo of some of the failed regulators I have on hand that I have pulled from production over the years: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DML8O8dW0AISX5m.jpg On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 3:05 PM Bill Degnan wrote: > H745's are harder to find. I have at least one that needs service but I > am located in the USA and I have no clear idea what's wrong with it. Is it > that you have zero h745's at all or you have a bad one? Is there a typical > point of failure for these? If so, I'd try to track down a bad one and fix > it. Probably a lot cheaper. > b > > On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 2:54 PM P Gebhardt via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Hello Noel, >> >> thanks for your quick reply. There are indeed some DEC power brick models >> on epay, but none regarding the H745. >> >> All the best, >> Pierre >> >> >> >> >> > From: Pierre Gebhardt >> >> > two H745 bricks (delivering -15V) which are still missing. I'd be >> very >> > happy, if anybody could consider parting with one or two. Location >> is >> > in Germany. >> >> There should be some on eBait; mildly expensive, but if you get them from >> the US, the shipping is going to be a fair amount anyway... >> >> Noel >> > From technoid6502 at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 14:11:09 2018 From: technoid6502 at gmail.com (Jeffrey S. Worley) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 15:11:09 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 48, Issue 17 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3e21a35b1f4a0d2d65f47388ce43000c51325969.camel@gmail.com> I recall the SAGE was an integrated system of control for Interceptors. It began in the 1950's and became fully operational with the F106 fighter interceptor aircraft. It could control an entire intercept from wheels up to flare on landing. I never thought I'd SEE a chunk of the system. Thanks! I think it stood for Semi-Automatic Ground Environment, or some such. What kind of cores does it use? I once saw a board of Ruby Rod core memory at a junkyard. Very beautiful. Jeff From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 17 14:28:34 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 12:28:34 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 48, Issue 17 In-Reply-To: <3e21a35b1f4a0d2d65f47388ce43000c51325969.camel@gmail.com> References: <3e21a35b1f4a0d2d65f47388ce43000c51325969.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 09/17/2018 12:11 PM, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote: > I recall the SAGE was an integrated system of control for Interceptors. > It began in the 1950's and became fully operational with the > F106 fighter interceptor aircraft. It could control an entire > intercept from wheels up to flare on landing. I never thought I'd SEE > a chunk of the system. Thanks! I think it stood for Semi-Automatic > Ground Environment, or some such. > > What kind of cores does it use? I once saw a board of Ruby Rod core > memory at a junkyard. Very beautiful. Dunno, but I had a manager with SAGE experience. He said it was very useful for keeping one's lunch warm. --Chuck From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Sep 17 14:30:53 2018 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 19:30:53 +0000 Subject: Looking for two DEC H445 power bricks for PDP 11/40 project In-Reply-To: <1374244254.10477991.1537206874069@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1374244254.10477991.1537206874069.ref@mail.yahoo.com>, <1374244254.10477991.1537206874069@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: See answer below ? Van: P Gebhardt via cctalk Verzonden: maandag 17 september 2018 19:54 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Looking for two DEC H445 power bricks for PDP 11/40 project Hello list, last year, I was able to obtain a BA11-F chassis for my PDP 11/40 build-up project. The power supply to run a system in basic configuration is complete except for two H745 bricks (delivering -15V) which are still missing. I'd be very happy, if anybody could consider parting with one or two. Location is in Germany. Please contact me off-list. Thanks a lot in advance for anybody of you helping me to work towards a running my first very classic PDP-11! Best regards,Pierre ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de Hi Pierre, As far as I know, the 11/40 uses only one H745. And vague memory seems te recall that the -15V brick is an ?odd one?, because, unlike all other bricks, it needs the +15V from the regulator that is inside the H742 block. But I could be wrong ... If you have a faulty H745, you can probably repair it. It is not too complicated, and when you have a +24 .. 30V DC power supply on the bench (and possiby that +15V DC) you can check the H745 out. It?s a secundary switcher, so safe to work on. If you don?t have any H745, let me know. No promises, but I can check what I have on a shelf (probably defective, but as said, they can be repaired). Greetz, Henk, PA8PDP From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Sep 17 14:45:31 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 15:45:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Looking for two DEC H445 power bricks for PDP 11/40 project Message-ID: <20180917194531.6008118C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Pierre Gebhardt > There are indeed some DEC power brick models on epay, but none > regarding the H745. Here is one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/270303423286 but it is _really_ pricey. I have dealt with them before, they put high prices on things; try offering them a reasonable amount and see if they take it. Also, you could try contacting this guy: https://www.ebay.com/usr/patrick-j He has a lot of 'brick's listed, just not an H745, but he has a ton of stuff (I 'picked' his warehouse, it's enormous), and maybe he just forgot to re-list it when it expired, or something? Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Sep 17 15:09:08 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 16:09:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Looking for two DEC H445 power bricks for PDP 11/40 project Message-ID: <20180917200908.7E2D818C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Henk Gooijen > As far as I know, the 11/40 uses only one H745. Depends on what kind of memory it has. If MF11-L, it has two H745's; if MM11-U, it has an H745 and an H754. (The harness has two different connectors for the 5th 'brick', so it can handle either kind. At least, that's the situation on the later machines [serial numbers above 6000]; early production /40's only support the MF11-L, and you have to use special add-on harnesses to support an MF11-U in them; see DEC-11-H40SA-B-D, Chapter 6 for the details.) Noel From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 17:00:59 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 16:00:59 -0600 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 48, Issue 17 In-Reply-To: <3e21a35b1f4a0d2d65f47388ce43000c51325969.camel@gmail.com> References: <3e21a35b1f4a0d2d65f47388ce43000c51325969.camel@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 1:11 PM, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > What kind of cores does it use? > Pretty ordinary core memory. Being an early system, the cores were rather large, so high currents were needed for read and write. There was forced air temperature control, vs. oil immersion used in the contemporary IBM 7302 core storage unit (later replaced by air-cooled 7302A). From seefriek at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 17:04:52 2018 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 18:04:52 -0400 Subject: VT100 emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The BBKey2 has punctuation on the keys. It's not all of them (|, & and \ aren't there), but the SYM key brings up an onscreen keyboard with those. Not ideal, but I would argue reasonable compromise for something relatively modern that fits in your pocket. Not sure about diacritics, but at least in the older BBs, my French and German colleagues didn't seem to have trouble sending messages with them. KJ On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 11:43 AM Liam Proven wrote: > > On Mon, 17 Sep 2018 at 17:05, Ken Seefried via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Well...not 7", but there is this: > > https://blackberrymobile.com/product/blackberry-key2/ > > True. > > I have not had or used an Android Blackberry with a hardware keyboard, > but I did have a Passport, the older QNX-based device. > > One thing to note about the keyboard is that is has no punctuation > marks at all. It only has letters, backspace, return, Alt and Shift. > > No keys for numbers or . , ' ? & * | > < etc. > > Some of these things are accessible with Alt, some with softkeys on > the display, and some will be hard to find at all. > > It was great for entering English text but I suspect it would be a > real handful for shell commands or in a terminal emulator. > > The Psion/Gemini keyboard doesn't have many, just these: > > , / > > ' ~ > . ? > > ... and it causes problems for non-English users. It has no keys for > ?, ?, ?, ?, ? and so on. There are workarounds but users of languages > with many diacritics tend to be very used to having dedicated keys for > these things. > > > > -- > Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Sep 17 17:17:28 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 22:17:28 +0000 Subject: Looking for two DEC H445 power bricks for PDP 11/40 project In-Reply-To: References: <20180917181838.7F0F018C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1968014527.10533910.1537210458882@mail.yahoo.com> , Message-ID: I had a problem with brick power supplies a number of years back. I found an issue that caused them to fail. I had about ten of them on the same power switch. You'd think this would not be an issue but it is. You see it works like this, each one had a transformer in it. When you disconnect the power, with a switch, each of the transformers often has energy left in the cores. Normally for just one supply, this isn't an issue. When you have a bunch of these, only one supply absorbs all of the energy. When it does, it will blow some part of that supply up. On the ones I had, it'd take of the negative rail. I put a MOV on the power rail and didn't have any more issues with power cycling. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Bill Degnan via cctalk Sent: Monday, September 17, 2018 12:07:22 PM To: p.gebhardt at ymail.com; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Looking for two DEC H445 power bricks for PDP 11/40 project here is a photo of some of the failed regulators I have on hand that I have pulled from production over the years: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DML8O8dW0AISX5m.jpg On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 3:05 PM Bill Degnan wrote: > H745's are harder to find. I have at least one that needs service but I > am located in the USA and I have no clear idea what's wrong with it. Is it > that you have zero h745's at all or you have a bad one? Is there a typical > point of failure for these? If so, I'd try to track down a bad one and fix > it. Probably a lot cheaper. > b > > On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 2:54 PM P Gebhardt via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Hello Noel, >> >> thanks for your quick reply. There are indeed some DEC power brick models >> on epay, but none regarding the H745. >> >> All the best, >> Pierre >> >> >> >> >> > From: Pierre Gebhardt >> >> > two H745 bricks (delivering -15V) which are still missing. I'd be >> very >> > happy, if anybody could consider parting with one or two. Location >> is >> > in Germany. >> >> There should be some on eBait; mildly expensive, but if you get them from >> the US, the shipping is going to be a fair amount anyway... >> >> Noel >> > From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 17:19:33 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 16:19:33 -0600 Subject: Looking for two DEC H445 power bricks for PDP 11/40 project In-Reply-To: References: <1374244254.10477991.1537206874069.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1374244254.10477991.1537206874069@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 1:30 PM, Henk Gooijen via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > As far as I know, the 11/40 uses only one H745. > And vague memory seems te recall that the -15V brick is an ?odd one?, > because, unlike all other bricks, it needs the +15V from the regulator that > is inside the H742 block. But I could be wrong ... > The D and E position regulators in the H742 of an 11/40 can be: * both H745, if no MM11-U core memory is used * one H745 in D and one H754 in E, if some core memory is used * no H745, and two H754 in D and E, if a lot of core memory is used The A, B, and C position are always H744 (+5V 25A). I'm not clear on the distinction between "some" and "a lot" of MM11-U core memory. It might be explained in the 11/40 manual, or one might have to work it out from which memory backplanes are powered from which regulator modules. From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon Sep 17 17:26:42 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 15:26:42 -0700 Subject: VT100 emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <877C2215-3D95-4E1E-93BD-FC9360DE9D5B@avanthar.com> > On Sep 17, 2018, at 8:04 AM, Ken Seefried via cctalk wrote: > > From: Al Kossow >> >> a 7" android tablet based on the wondermedia wm8650 SOC >> ... >> these things are so old they've disappeared from the market >> > > Well...not 7", but there is this: > https://blackberrymobile.com/product/blackberry-key2/ > > KJ As long as you are connecting over the network, my iPod Touch works quite well for Multics and Unix, when running SecureCRT. It?s semi-usable for VMS (lacking in keys). The same app works pretty good with the iPad and large wireless keyboard. Zane From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 17:49:39 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 16:49:39 -0600 Subject: Looking for two DEC H445 power bricks for PDP 11/40 project In-Reply-To: References: <20180917181838.7F0F018C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1968014527.10533910.1537210458882@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 4:17 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > I had a problem with brick power supplies a number of years back. I found > an issue that caused them to fail. I had about ten of them on the same > power switch. You'd think this would not be an issue but it is. > > You see it works like this, each one had a transformer in it. When you > disconnect the power, with a switch, each of the transformers often has > energy left in the cores. Normally for just one supply, this isn't an > issue. When you have a bunch of these, only one supply absorbs all of the > energy. When it does, it will blow some part of that supply up. On the ones > I had, it'd take of the negative rail. > > I put a MOV on the power rail and didn't have any more issues with power > cycling. Interesting! The DEC regulator modules under discussion (H744, H745, H754, etc) probably don't have that particular problem. They are switchers, and run on 20-30VAC input rather than directly on mains voltage. The H742 or H7420 bulk supply which the regulator modules plug into has a large power transformer from mains to the intermediate AC, and supports up to five regulator modules, It also has a control module which includes one or two built-in linear regulators (low-power compared to the plug-in switching regulators). The PDP-11/40 has one H742 with five regulator modules. The PDP-11/70 has two H7420s with three or four H744 regulator modules each. Some of the regulator modules are rated for up to 150W output. The most common, the H744, is rated for 125W (5V 25A). However, DEC designed somewhat conservatively and didn't normally operate the regulators near the maximum rated current. I don't think the H742 or H7420 can handle much more than 500W total, hence the 11/70 needing two of them. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Sep 17 23:10:21 2018 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 00:10:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SAGE memory plane In-Reply-To: <1cbf3d2d-42a6-386c-1c5a-030b226c22af@bitsavers.org> References: <1cbf3d2d-42a6-386c-1c5a-030b226c22af@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Sep 2018, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > ebay https://www.ebay.com/itm/232927847019 > > https://secretsofcoldwarradar.omeka.net/exhibits/show/cold-war-radar-technology/item/4 > > can someone identify exactly what this box was called, when it was deployed, > and what training manual they are referring to? In the T.O. (http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/sage/3-32-0_Central_Computer_System_Vol1_Feb59.pdf), that cabinet is called "core memory 1", or 256?? ferrite core array". We just called it "Big Mem". Here's a picture of the cabinet from McChord's SAGE: http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/SAGE/BigMem.jpg I'll have to look through my references to find out when it was deployed. That training manual doesn't seem to be on Bitsavers. :-) It would be nice to find it. > we have a couple > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102633198 > > and they keep getting mis-identified. I have one, as well: http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/SAGE/Coreplane-1L.jpg Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From useddec at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 23:47:56 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2018 23:47:56 -0500 Subject: Looking for two DEC H445 power bricks for PDP 11/40 project In-Reply-To: References: <20180917181838.7F0F018C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1968014527.10533910.1537210458882@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The H744 was 25 amp, but then they came out with the H7440 28amp? And the H7441 at 32 amp. A lot of units were upgraded in the field. Paul On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 5:49 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 4:17 PM, dwight via cctalk > wrote: > > > I had a problem with brick power supplies a number of years back. I found > > an issue that caused them to fail. I had about ten of them on the same > > power switch. You'd think this would not be an issue but it is. > > > > You see it works like this, each one had a transformer in it. When you > > disconnect the power, with a switch, each of the transformers often has > > energy left in the cores. Normally for just one supply, this isn't an > > issue. When you have a bunch of these, only one supply absorbs all of the > > energy. When it does, it will blow some part of that supply up. On the > ones > > I had, it'd take of the negative rail. > > > > I put a MOV on the power rail and didn't have any more issues with power > > cycling. > > > Interesting! > > The DEC regulator modules under discussion (H744, H745, H754, etc) probably > don't have that particular problem. They are switchers, and run on 20-30VAC > input rather than directly on mains voltage. The H742 or H7420 bulk supply > which the regulator modules plug into has a large power transformer from > mains to the intermediate AC, and supports up to five regulator modules, It > also has a control module which includes one or two built-in linear > regulators (low-power compared to the plug-in switching regulators). > > The PDP-11/40 has one H742 with five regulator modules. The PDP-11/70 has > two H7420s with three or four H744 regulator modules each. > > Some of the regulator modules are rated for up to 150W output. The most > common, the H744, is rated for 125W (5V 25A). However, DEC designed > somewhat conservatively and didn't normally operate the regulators near the > maximum rated current. I don't think the H742 or H7420 can handle much more > than 500W total, hence the 11/70 needing two of them. > From useddec at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 00:09:19 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 00:09:19 -0500 Subject: favor at vcfmw In-Reply-To: <5ee4b21e-82ab-2f5d-ccf6-bfdb623d17f5@bitsavers.org> References: <5ee4b21e-82ab-2f5d-ccf6-bfdb623d17f5@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Hi Al , I survived VCFMW. I thought you received my reply, but I've been having all kinds of problems. I'll try to have my son or someone send you pics. Thanks, Paul Paul Anderson Aug 23 to Al Hi Al, I have four DILOG boards that the components match the photo you sent me. The difference is after the DQ6 is blank on 2, and others say 57067A or 57086. The ROM numbers that can be read are different numbers. I think the only difference might be the ROMs. Did Emulex make one? I remember looking for one like this a few months ago. Thanks, Paul On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 1:35 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > If Paul brings some Dilog qbus boards, could someone look for a DQ614 for > me? > I've been trying to find out if he has one, and haven't been able to do it. > > From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Tue Sep 18 03:11:43 2018 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 08:11:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Looking for two DEC H445 power bricks for PDP 11/40 project In-Reply-To: <20180917200908.7E2D818C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180917200908.7E2D818C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <713307049.10898380.1537258303983@mail.yahoo.com> >? ? > From: Henk Gooijen > >?? > As far as I know, the 11/40 uses only one H745. > >Depends on what kind of memory it has. If MF11-L, it has two H745's; if >MM11-U, it has an H745 and an H754. > >(The harness has two different connectors for the 5th 'brick', so it can >handle either kind. At least, that's the situation on the later machines >[serial numbers above 6000]; early production /40's only support the MF11-L, >and you have to use special add-on harnesses to support an MF11-U in them; >see DEC-11-H40SA-B-D, Chapter 6 for the details.) As I don't have core memory modules available, I thought of using MS11 memory, which, according to my research, seems to be an option for 11/40 systems. The system manual states on page 6-7 that the base power configuration consists of two H745 regulators and that one may be swapped with a H754 in case MF11-U memory is used. Does that mean that a single H745 regulator might be sufficient for my needs? All the best, Pierre From useddec at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 03:32:08 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 03:32:08 -0500 Subject: Looking for two DEC H445 power bricks for PDP 11/40 project In-Reply-To: <713307049.10898380.1537258303983@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20180917200908.7E2D818C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <713307049.10898380.1537258303983@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'll check my system tomorrow if I can. If you are using a DEC MS11-LB or LD or compatible, you will need a DD11CK or DK backplane. If used in a BA11-BF, you will Need DD11-CF or DF, which is the same as the CK/DK, but with a longer wiring harness. DEC made an "extension cable" to do this, but thew are not many around. Or just replace it yourself. Paul On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 3:11 AM, P Gebhardt via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > From: Henk Gooijen > > > > > As far as I know, the 11/40 uses only one H745. > > > >Depends on what kind of memory it has. If MF11-L, it has two H745's; if > >MM11-U, it has an H745 and an H754. > > > >(The harness has two different connectors for the 5th 'brick', so it can > >handle either kind. At least, that's the situation on the later machines > >[serial numbers above 6000]; early production /40's only support the > MF11-L, > >and you have to use special add-on harnesses to support an MF11-U in them; > >see DEC-11-H40SA-B-D, Chapter 6 for the details.) > > As I don't have core memory modules available, I thought of using MS11 > memory, > which, according to my research, seems to be an option for 11/40 systems. > The system manual states on page 6-7 that the base power configuration > consists > of two H745 regulators and that one may be swapped with a H754 in case > MF11-U > memory is used. > Does that mean that a single H745 regulator might be sufficient for my > needs? > > All the best, > Pierre > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Sep 18 09:11:01 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 14:11:01 +0000 Subject: SAGE memory plane In-Reply-To: References: <1cbf3d2d-42a6-386c-1c5a-030b226c22af@bitsavers.org>, Message-ID: Its a shame it wasn't in the complete unit. Unless someone actually erases it, core memory will hold data until the sun swells up, as a red giant, and toast the earth. One always wonders what one would find on these old cores. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Mike Loewen via cctalk Sent: Monday, September 17, 2018 9:10:21 PM To: Al Kossow; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: SAGE memory plane On Sun, 16 Sep 2018, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > ebay https://www.ebay.com/itm/232927847019 > > https://secretsofcoldwarradar.omeka.net/exhibits/show/cold-war-radar-technology/item/4 > > can someone identify exactly what this box was called, when it was deployed, > and what training manual they are referring to? In the T.O. (http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/sage/3-32-0_Central_Computer_System_Vol1_Feb59.pdf), that cabinet is called "core memory 1", or 256?? ferrite core array". We just called it "Big Mem". Here's a picture of the cabinet from McChord's SAGE: http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/SAGE/BigMem.jpg I'll have to look through my references to find out when it was deployed. That training manual doesn't seem to be on Bitsavers. :-) It would be nice to find it. > we have a couple > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102633198 > > and they keep getting mis-identified. I have one, as well: http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/SAGE/Coreplane-1L.jpg Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Sep 18 09:27:47 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 10:27:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Looking for two DEC H445 power bricks for PDP 11/40 project Message-ID: <20180918142747.2584E18C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Pierre Gebhardt > As I don't have core memory modules available, I thought of using MS11 > memory, which, according to my research, seems to be an option for > 11/40 systems. Err, which kind of MS11? There are lots of different ones: http://gunkies.org/wiki/MS11 and they don't all work in every UNIBUS PDP-11! Your options are the -E/-J group, and the -L, but the latter are a bit hard to find, and expensive. (There may be non-DEC equivalents, but I don't know about them.) They all need a MUD backplane such as the DD11-C or DD11-D. (IIRC, the -M has a 'UNIBUS' jumper, but the card uses non-standard voltages on the backplane; 12V instead of 15V, IIRC.) > Does that mean that a single H745 regulator might be sufficient for my > needs? If you're not using a lot of MM11-L, you would definitely only need one H745, no matter what configuration you have. (Note that if you have an old machine/harness, there's a jumper you have to add if you have only a single H745; see the second paragraph on page 6-18 of DEC-11-H40SA-B-D.) Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 18 10:32:48 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 08:32:48 -0700 Subject: SAGE memory plane In-Reply-To: References: <1cbf3d2d-42a6-386c-1c5a-030b226c22af@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <87d38083-64a2-368a-fc34-3760ffcd2d01@bitsavers.org> On 9/17/18 9:10 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > ?? I'll have to look through my references to find out when it was deployed. That training manual doesn't seem to be on > Bitsavers.? :-)? It would be nice to find it. Yes it would. The 'cold war secrets' site must have had access to a copy but I have no idea if the entire document was scanned From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Sep 18 10:45:52 2018 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 15:45:52 +0000 Subject: Looking for two DEC H445 power bricks for PDP 11/40 project In-Reply-To: <713307049.10898380.1537258303983@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20180917200908.7E2D818C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, <713307049.10898380.1537258303983@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Pierre, Just to give you an idea, I will go to my museum either on Wednesday or on Saturday. Till then, Henk ________________________________ Van: cctalk namens P Gebhardt via cctalk Verzonden: Tuesday, September 18, 2018 10:11:43 AM Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: Looking for two DEC H445 power bricks for PDP 11/40 project > > From: Henk Gooijen > > > As far as I know, the 11/40 uses only one H745. > >Depends on what kind of memory it has. If MF11-L, it has two H745's; if >MM11-U, it has an H745 and an H754. > >(The harness has two different connectors for the 5th 'brick', so it can >handle either kind. At least, that's the situation on the later machines >[serial numbers above 6000]; early production /40's only support the MF11-L, >and you have to use special add-on harnesses to support an MF11-U in them; >see DEC-11-H40SA-B-D, Chapter 6 for the details.) As I don't have core memory modules available, I thought of using MS11 memory, which, according to my research, seems to be an option for 11/40 systems. The system manual states on page 6-7 that the base power configuration consists of two H745 regulators and that one may be swapped with a H754 in case MF11-U memory is used. Does that mean that a single H745 regulator might be sufficient for my needs? All the best, Pierre From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Sep 18 12:19:28 2018 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 12:19:28 -0500 Subject: VCFMW Message-ID: <007b01d44f73$c1486ed0$43d94c70$@classiccmp.org> Once again. Silent700 put together an incredible show for the Midwest computer festival in Elk Grove. Every room that was rented was almost overflowing most of the show, so I suspect attendance was great. I heard a lot of good feedback on the speakers and presentations, and I also noticed that the auction pile was bigger than each previous year. I'm not sure which exhibit was my favorite, could be Pat's AVLVAX or Mikes HP3000 - but I also seem to have spent more time than usual at all the C64, A2+, and TRS80 machines. Maybe I'll take a detour to the 8-bitters in my collection for the near term, we'll see! In addition to the show, there were multiple parties and some late nights spent hanging out with the folks I mostly get to see once a year so friendships were renewed and such! Midwest is definitely a really fun show, I strongly encourage anyone who hasn't been to come out next year. Silent700 and helpers (mike et. Al.). thank you so much for your untiring devotion to making Midwest such a great show. J From lproven at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 12:28:39 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 19:28:39 +0200 Subject: The Ultimate Apollo Guidance Computer Talk Message-ID: Amazingly detailed 1hr talk about the Apollo Guidance Computer. It's stunning how much they got into mid-1960s technology: 1 MHz hand-made processor, 1 k of RAM, 4 k of ROM, and bank-switching, with a fault-tolerant multitasking OS with an interpreted metalanguage. Absolutely stunning. https://media.ccc.de/v/34c3-9064-the_ultimate_apollo_guidance_computer_talk -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Sep 18 12:37:42 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 13:37:42 -0400 Subject: The Ultimate Apollo Guidance Computer Talk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E8FF4AC-1D9D-4025-8373-6F7B2DB5749F@comcast.net> > On Sep 18, 2018, at 1:28 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > Amazingly detailed 1hr talk about the Apollo Guidance Computer. It's > stunning how much they got into mid-1960s technology: 1 MHz hand-made > processor, 1 k of RAM, 4 k of ROM, and bank-switching, with a > fault-tolerant multitasking OS with an interpreted metalanguage. > Absolutely stunning. Yes. But it's actually 12 k of ROM if I remember right, and that was expanded further later on. Another nice example of a large program on a small computer is the original ALGOL compiler, written by Dijkstra and Zonneveld in 1961, in about 6 months. It implements the full language -- not a subset -- on a 4k machine. Gauthier van den Hove wrote a Ph.D. thesis about it, I believe that will be published soon. Very nice work. paul From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Tue Sep 18 15:59:19 2018 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 20:59:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Looking for two DEC H445 power bricks for PDP 11/40 project In-Reply-To: <20180918142747.2584E18C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180918142747.2584E18C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <1678563820.11792951.1537304360011@mail.yahoo.com> > >Am Dienstag, 18. September 2018, 16:27:49 MESZ hat Noel Chiappa Folgendes >geschrieben: > > > > > >? ? > From: Pierre Gebhardt > >? ? > As I don't have core memory modules available, I thought of using MS11 >? ? > memory, which, according to my research, seems to be an option for >? ? > 11/40 systems. > >Err, which kind of MS11? There are lots of different ones: > >? http://gunkies.org/wiki/MS11 > >and they don't all work in every UNIBUS PDP-11! > >Your options are the -E/-J group, and the -L, but the latter are a bit hard >to find, and expensive. (There may be non-DEC equivalents, but I don't know >about them.) They all need a MUD backplane such as the DD11-C or DD11-D. Indeed, these are MS11-LB boards, but I don't know yet, if they work. Got them a long time ago with a bunch of other untested unibus boards. With the BA11-F enclosure actually came a DD11-DK backplane. On Henk's website, I saw that one of his systems also has a DD11-DK backplane mounted in it despite the shorter cable lengths compared to a DD11-DF according to what Paul Anderson wrote. I will have a look at this as soon as I have time and will extend the cables accordingly, if required. Thanks a lot for all the great hints provided so far by the list member :) All the best, Pierre From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Sep 18 20:29:08 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 20:29:08 -0500 Subject: The Ultimate Apollo Guidance Computer Talk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5BA1A664.5010903@pico-systems.com> On 09/18/2018 12:28 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Amazingly detailed 1hr talk about the Apollo Guidance Computer. It's > stunning how much they got into mid-1960s technology: 1 MHz hand-made > processor, 1 k of RAM, 4 k of ROM, and bank-switching, with a > fault-tolerant multitasking OS with an interpreted metalanguage. > Absolutely stunning. > > https://media.ccc.de/v/34c3-9064-the_ultimate_apollo_guidance_computer_talk > Well, this was one of the VERY first computers built with monolithic integrated circuits. NASA sure assigned a TOUGH task to the designers! Another one was the Honeywell Alert, designed for the X-15 project. Jon From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 22:02:26 2018 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 22:02:26 -0500 Subject: The Ultimate Apollo Guidance Computer Talk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FBE21A6-F8E7-4CAB-8AD1-C86D86DD0CC5@gmail.com> Liam, thanks for posting this. What a wonderful way to waste an hour. ; ) I can also highly recommend the book 'Digital Apollo', which goes into some detail about the man-machine interface of the AGC and the internal debate at the time of the role of man as "spacecraft pilot". -C On Sep 18, 2018, at 12:28 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Amazingly detailed 1hr talk about the Apollo Guidance Computer. It's > stunning how much they got into mid-1960s technology: 1 MHz hand-made > processor, 1 k of RAM, 4 k of ROM, and bank-switching, with a > fault-tolerant multitasking OS with an interpreted metalanguage. > Absolutely stunning. > > https://media.ccc.de/v/34c3-9064-the_ultimate_apollo_guidance_computer_talk > > -- > Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From steven at malikoff.com Tue Sep 18 22:44:56 2018 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 13:44:56 +1000 Subject: The Ultimate Apollo Guidance Computer Talk In-Reply-To: <3FBE21A6-F8E7-4CAB-8AD1-C86D86DD0CC5@gmail.com> References: <3FBE21A6-F8E7-4CAB-8AD1-C86D86DD0CC5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7f5051ebc75bdf68efec6e0ac740392a.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Cory said > Liam, thanks for posting this. What a wonderful way to waste an hour. ; ) > > I can also highly recommend the book 'Digital Apollo', which goes into some detail about the man-machine interface of the AGC and the internal debate at the time of the role of man as "spacecraft pilot". -C > > > On Sep 18, 2018, at 12:28 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > >> Amazingly detailed 1hr talk about the Apollo Guidance Computer. It's >> stunning how much they got into mid-1960s technology: 1 MHz hand-made >> processor, 1 k of RAM, 4 k of ROM, and bank-switching, with a >> fault-tolerant multitasking OS with an interpreted metalanguage. >> Absolutely stunning. >> >> https://media.ccc.de/v/34c3-9064-the_ultimate_apollo_guidance_computer_talk Haven't watched this video yet but am keen to do so as "ultimate" is a bold claim to make. For my birthday recently I received 'SUNBURST AND LUMINARY: an Apollo Memoir' by Don Eyles. http://www.sunburstandluminary.com/SLhome.html I've only read a few chapters so far but it is a fascinating new (2018) account of how the AGC software came about, and his part in it such as writing the P63 and P64 programs for the powered descent to the lunar surface. I've not got the Digital Apollo nor any other books on the AGC but if I had my druthers I would wish to get the one by Eldon Hall, however it is a rather unusually expensive paperback so that will have to wait. Steve. From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 00:28:33 2018 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 00:28:33 -0500 Subject: VCFMW In-Reply-To: <007b01d44f73$c1486ed0$43d94c70$@classiccmp.org> References: <007b01d44f73$c1486ed0$43d94c70$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 12:45 PM Jay West via cctalk wrote: > Once again. Silent700 put together an incredible show for the Midwest > computer festival in Elk Grove. Every room that was rented was almost > overflowing most of the show, so I suspect attendance was great. I heard a > lot of good feedback on the speakers and presentations, and I also noticed > that the auction pile was bigger than each previous year. Thanks, Jay, for the kind words about the show. This was indeed our largest turnout ever, by a wide margin. The auction lasted nearly four hours (!), across 102 lots, and despite my failing voice and rumbling stomach, kept bidders at rapt attention throughout. Pic galleries and videos are just starting to come in and are being posted here as we get them: http://vcfmw.org/past.html Videos of the talks are being professionally produced by our very own Trixter and will be up as early as this weekend on our channel at https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCu3UDdi0llxiSaFKq-p5gYQ/videos A big thanks to all who donated, attended and contributed to another successful VCF Midwest! -jht From brain at jbrain.com Wed Sep 19 00:30:51 2018 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 00:30:51 -0500 Subject: VCFMW In-Reply-To: References: <007b01d44f73$c1486ed0$43d94c70$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: https://www.facebook.com/pg/go4retro/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1088786634614459 From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 03:24:01 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 01:24:01 -0700 Subject: The Ultimate Apollo Guidance Computer Talk In-Reply-To: <7f5051ebc75bdf68efec6e0ac740392a.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <3FBE21A6-F8E7-4CAB-8AD1-C86D86DD0CC5@gmail.com> <7f5051ebc75bdf68efec6e0ac740392a.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <10FB4032-9EAF-4CAD-AA6B-23F58395187E@gmail.com> > On Sep 18, 2018, at 8:44 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > > Haven't watched this video yet but am keen to do so as "ultimate" is a bold claim to make. > This an outstanding presentation. The bold claim is actually somewhat justified... Marc From lproven at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 05:27:17 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 12:27:17 +0200 Subject: The Ultimate Apollo Guidance Computer Talk In-Reply-To: <4E8FF4AC-1D9D-4025-8373-6F7B2DB5749F@comcast.net> References: <4E8FF4AC-1D9D-4025-8373-6F7B2DB5749F@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Sep 2018 at 19:37, Paul Koning wrote: > > Yes. But it's actually 12 k of ROM if I remember right, and that was expanded further later on. Well, yes. I was oversimplifying things a little by talking about the base, un-bank-switched space. (I copied-and-pasted a FB "Vintage Computer Club post I made.) And it's kW not kB of course. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 05:27:49 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 12:27:49 +0200 Subject: The Ultimate Apollo Guidance Computer Talk In-Reply-To: <3FBE21A6-F8E7-4CAB-8AD1-C86D86DD0CC5@gmail.com> References: <3FBE21A6-F8E7-4CAB-8AD1-C86D86DD0CC5@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Sep 2018 at 05:02, Cory Heisterkamp wrote: > > Liam, thanks for posting this. What a wonderful way to waste an hour. ; ) > > I can also highly recommend the book 'Digital Apollo', which goes into some detail about the man-machine interface of the AGC and the internal debate at the time of the role of man as "spacecraft pilot". -C You're welcome. Thanks for the comment. :-) -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 05:28:44 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 12:28:44 +0200 Subject: The Ultimate Apollo Guidance Computer Talk In-Reply-To: <10FB4032-9EAF-4CAD-AA6B-23F58395187E@gmail.com> References: <3FBE21A6-F8E7-4CAB-8AD1-C86D86DD0CC5@gmail.com> <7f5051ebc75bdf68efec6e0ac740392a.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <10FB4032-9EAF-4CAD-AA6B-23F58395187E@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Sep 2018 at 10:24, CuriousMarc via cctalk wrote: > > This an outstanding presentation. The bold claim is actually somewhat justified... I am very glad to hear that. The comparison that sprang to mind, actually, was your wonderful series of Alto restoration videos, which I have been evangelising to people just recently. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From systems.glitch at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 08:28:30 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 09:28:30 -0400 Subject: VCFMW In-Reply-To: References: <007b01d44f73$c1486ed0$43d94c70$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: A great show indeed! My first time to Midwest, glad to finally meet a lot of the folks I know online! Still recovering from the drive back. Thanks, Jonathan On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 1:31 AM Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > > https://www.facebook.com/pg/go4retro/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1088786634614459 > > > From systems.glitch at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 08:30:26 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 09:30:26 -0400 Subject: I finally got to see a LMI Lambda in real life... In-Reply-To: <18963558-B57E-431D-821D-515B9A78363F@shiresoft.com> References: <6102FF16-D55F-4E20-9760-8FEE2D85AF50@lunar-tokyo.net> <18963558-B57E-431D-821D-515B9A78363F@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: A worthy detour on the way to Midwest in the Conmega-bus! Good to meet you as well as seeing these machines get another shot at life! Thanks, Jonathan On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 1:20 AM Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I finally dug up the link to the CADR stuff (there?s probably some other > useful links there as well). > http://www.unlambda.com/index.php?n=Main.Symbolics < > http://www.unlambda.com/index.php?n=Main.Symbolics>. > > The CADR emulator and all of the microcode and OS (disk) images are in the > download > directory. Even if you don?t use the emulator, if you ever want to get > the CADR running again > you?ll need the microcode and OS images. > > TTFN - Guy > > > On Sep 14, 2018, at 3:10 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Without the console doing much with the CADR is going to be tough. Not > having the disk isn?t too terrible as the basic contents (uCode and system > code) are available. There?s even an emulator for the CADR though I don?t > have the link handy at the moment. Ping me if you have trouble finding it. > > > > Good luck with the LMIs! > > > > I have several Symbolics machines (3620, 2 3640, 3650) that are more or > less complete. The 3620 works (at least the last time I powered it on it > did?not enough time to ?play?). At least one of the 3640s has shown signs > of life and the 3650 (which came back to me after a vacation of 10 years > or so) needs some ?love? but it?ll be worth it because in addition to the > normal console it has the ?good? color frame buffer! The biggest issue for > me is consoles. I have 3 but one is in need of repair. > > > > TTFN - Guy > > > >> On Sep 14, 2018, at 12:55 PM, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >> Two of them in fact, and a CADR - In my garage, no less! > >> > >> The Lambdas are in bad shape, and the CADR is in very bad shape and > missing its console and disk. It?s going to take awhile to get them cleaned > up and see how viable they are. > >> > >> On the plus side, I got a some spares and debugging equipment, and I > have a working PDP-11 to debug the CADR with if it gets that far, so > there?s a good chance I should be able to get at least one working. > >> > >> I?ll post more as things develop. > >> > > > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Sep 19 10:09:57 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 11:09:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The Ultimate Apollo Guidance Computer Talk Message-ID: <20180919150957.8437218C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Cory Heisterkamp > I can also highly recommend the book 'Digital Apollo' Yes, it's quite good. Two other good books about the AGC are: Eldon Hall, "Journey to the Moon" which is by a guy who was one of the managers on the project. The book is anything but a 'management history', though (unlike too many 'technical histories', like the Smith/Redmond Whirlwind history, which I was just looking at). The book is a _technical_ history - the engineering is front and center, and management decisions are on the periphery, for background. There's also: Hugh Blair-Smith, "Left Brains for the Right Stuff" which is by someone who was an engineer on the project - he did work on the CPU architecture, and also some software. The book is a mix of personal experiences, and an overall history of the moon race. Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 19 10:48:10 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 08:48:10 -0700 Subject: ISO 70's and 80's coax and twinax terminal docs/brochures Message-ID: I've started to more aggressively archive material on old IBM and compatible coax and twinax terminals and was wondering if anyone has documentation scanned or squirreled away that I don't already have on bitsavers. Most of these have been scrapped by now, and surviving keyboards for them are going for the high hundreds of dollars now, even from companies like Telex or Memorex. I started surveying what we have in the CHM collection and about half of them have no keyboards :-( This is a drag. Terminals from the PC era forward seem to be in a little better state since many appear to have adopted some flavor of 5 pin DIN interface. There are some new pictures of a few Telex coax terminals up now under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/telex/terminal and I started trying to restore a 276-12 with integrated establishment controller that I'm going to have to find a keyboard for. Maybe Cindy knows of someone who has some more old Telex Microswitch keyboards. From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 11:03:59 2018 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 13:03:59 -0300 Subject: ISO 70's and 80's coax and twinax terminal docs/brochures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: time for a ps2-to-3274-terminal-adapter? Enviado do meu Tele-Movel On Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 12:47 Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I've started to more aggressively archive material on old IBM and > compatible coax and twinax > terminals and was wondering if anyone has documentation scanned or > squirreled away that I don't > already have on bitsavers. Most of these have been scrapped by now, and > surviving keyboards for them > are going for the high hundreds of dollars now, even from companies like > Telex or Memorex. > I started surveying what we have in the CHM collection and about half of > them have no keyboards :-( > This is a drag. > > Terminals from the PC era forward seem to be in a little better state > since many appear to have adopted > some flavor of 5 pin DIN interface. > > There are some new pictures of a few Telex coax terminals up now under > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/telex/terminal > and I started trying to restore a 276-12 with integrated establishment > controller > that I'm going to have to find a keyboard for. Maybe Cindy knows of > someone who > has some more old Telex Microswitch keyboards. > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 19 11:35:06 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 09:35:06 -0700 Subject: ISO 70's and 80's coax and twinax terminal docs/brochures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6965c027-6dbc-95e3-60b3-7841f31e97d3@bitsavers.org> On 9/19/18 9:03 AM, Alexandre Souza wrote: > time for a ps2-to-3274-terminal-adapter? yes, or at least get all the 25-pin parallel keyboard protocols documented before a keyboard in thousands of dollars instead of hundreds. Bob Rosenbloom let me borrow a 3178 keyboard to document. I have also been thinking about something like the 3megabit ethernet cape that Ken Schrriff did https://github.com/shirriff/alto-ethernet-interface except it would replace a 3174. 3174-23R with ethernet option is complete overkill for a situation where you want to attach one coax terminal to ethernet, like most people wanting a real console on Hercules want to do. From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Sep 19 11:51:39 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 09:51:39 -0700 Subject: The Ultimate Apollo Guidance Computer Talk In-Reply-To: <10FB4032-9EAF-4CAD-AA6B-23F58395187E@gmail.com> References: <3FBE21A6-F8E7-4CAB-8AD1-C86D86DD0CC5@gmail.com> <7f5051ebc75bdf68efec6e0ac740392a.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <10FB4032-9EAF-4CAD-AA6B-23F58395187E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5E1F4936-7668-43D9-BB13-1189D8400F44@shiresoft.com> > On Sep 19, 2018, at 1:24 AM, CuriousMarc via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Sep 18, 2018, at 8:44 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: >> >> Haven't watched this video yet but am keen to do so as "ultimate" is a bold claim to make. >> > > This an outstanding presentation. The bold claim is actually somewhat justified? Yes, they did a good job. I worked with Michael when we were both at Apple (a really good/smart guy). At the time he was focused on 6502 related stuff and we had many discussions about old hardware. TTFN - Guy From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Sep 19 12:02:46 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 10:02:46 -0700 Subject: ISO 70's and 80's coax and twinax terminal docs/brochures In-Reply-To: <6965c027-6dbc-95e3-60b3-7841f31e97d3@bitsavers.org> References: <6965c027-6dbc-95e3-60b3-7841f31e97d3@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > On Sep 19, 2018, at 9:35 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 9/19/18 9:03 AM, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> time for a ps2-to-3274-terminal-adapter? > > yes, or at least get all the 25-pin parallel keyboard protocols documented > before a keyboard in thousands of dollars instead of hundreds. Sorry, it?s already gotten bad. There are a couple of 3278/9 keyboards on eBay at the moment that have *insane* prices. > > Bob Rosenbloom let me borrow a 3178 keyboard to document. Hmm. Isn?t that just a standard IBM 5 pin DIN keyboard? That?s all I have for my 3179s and I thought that the 3178 had the same keyboard (but I could be mistaken? hey, it could happen!). > > I have also been thinking about something like the 3megabit ethernet cape that Ken Schrriff did > https://github.com/shirriff/alto-ethernet-interface except it would replace a 3174. > 3174-23R with ethernet option is complete overkill for a situation where you want to attach > one coax terminal to ethernet, like most people wanting a real console on Hercules want to do. Count me in! TTFN - Guy From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Sep 19 12:05:29 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 10:05:29 -0700 Subject: ISO 70's and 80's coax and twinax terminal docs/brochures In-Reply-To: <6965c027-6dbc-95e3-60b3-7841f31e97d3@bitsavers.org> References: <6965c027-6dbc-95e3-60b3-7841f31e97d3@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <16D5164D-BF3E-4A82-9804-6D1294D4353D@shiresoft.com> I just wanted to send this privately. I have a number of 3278/79 keyboards that I could *loan* you (as I have exactly the number of keyboards to match terminals) for documenting. The problem is getting together. I was just down in Santa Clara a couple of weeks ago for work and I probably won?t be down again until either late October or early November. My most common keyboard is the ?data entry keyboard? but I do have a typewriter style keyboard for my 3279 and the operator keyboard for the console on my 4331. TTFN - Guy > On Sep 19, 2018, at 9:35 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 9/19/18 9:03 AM, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> time for a ps2-to-3274-terminal-adapter? > > yes, or at least get all the 25-pin parallel keyboard protocols documented > before a keyboard in thousands of dollars instead of hundreds. > > Bob Rosenbloom let me borrow a 3178 keyboard to document. > > I have also been thinking about something like the 3megabit ethernet cape that Ken Schrriff did > https://github.com/shirriff/alto-ethernet-interface except it would replace a 3174. > 3174-23R with ethernet option is complete overkill for a situation where you want to attach > one coax terminal to ethernet, like most people wanting a real console on Hercules want to do. > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 19 12:17:52 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 10:17:52 -0700 Subject: ISO 70's and 80's coax and twinax terminal docs/brochures In-Reply-To: References: <6965c027-6dbc-95e3-60b3-7841f31e97d3@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 9/19/18 10:02 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: >> Bob Rosenbloom let me borrow a 3178 keyboard to document. > > Hmm. Isn?t that just a standard IBM 5 pin DIN keyboard? That?s all I have for my > 3179s and I thought that the 3178 had the same keyboard (but I could be mistaken? > hey, it could happen!). 3278 Henk's page on an adapter, which describes the interface http://www.ibmsystem3.nl/IBM3278/ From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 19 12:20:39 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 10:20:39 -0700 Subject: ISO 70's and 80's coax and twinax terminal docs/brochures In-Reply-To: <16D5164D-BF3E-4A82-9804-6D1294D4353D@shiresoft.com> References: <6965c027-6dbc-95e3-60b3-7841f31e97d3@bitsavers.org> <16D5164D-BF3E-4A82-9804-6D1294D4353D@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: >> Bob Rosenbloom let me borrow a 3178 keyboard to document. typo, meant 3278 From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 12:45:46 2018 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 13:45:46 -0400 Subject: The Ultimate Apollo Guidance Computer Talk In-Reply-To: <5E1F4936-7668-43D9-BB13-1189D8400F44@shiresoft.com> References: <3FBE21A6-F8E7-4CAB-8AD1-C86D86DD0CC5@gmail.com> <7f5051ebc75bdf68efec6e0ac740392a.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <10FB4032-9EAF-4CAD-AA6B-23F58395187E@gmail.com> <5E1F4936-7668-43D9-BB13-1189D8400F44@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: I watched the whole thing but skipped the more typical instruction explanations. Absolutely mind-blowing, hats off to you! On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 1:00 PM Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Sep 19, 2018, at 1:24 AM, CuriousMarc via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > >> On Sep 18, 2018, at 8:44 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >> Haven't watched this video yet but am keen to do so as "ultimate" is a > bold claim to make. > >> > > > > This an outstanding presentation. The bold claim is actually somewhat > justified? > > Yes, they did a good job. > > I worked with Michael when we were both at Apple (a really good/smart > guy). At the time > he was focused on 6502 related stuff and we had many discussions about old > hardware. > > TTFN - Guy > > -- -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com From mattislind at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 12:54:52 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 19:54:52 +0200 Subject: ISO 70's and 80's coax and twinax terminal docs/brochures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Den ons 19 sep. 2018 kl 18:15 skrev Al Kossow via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org>: > I've started to more aggressively archive material on old IBM and > compatible coax and twinax > terminals and was wondering if anyone has documentation scanned or > squirreled away that I don't > already have on bitsavers. Most of these have been scrapped by now, and > surviving keyboards for them > are going for the high hundreds of dollars now, even from companies like > Telex or Memorex. > I started surveying what we have in the CHM collection and about half of > them have no keyboards :-( > This is a drag. > > Terminals from the PC era forward seem to be in a little better state > since many appear to have adopted > some flavor of 5 pin DIN interface. > > There are some new pictures of a few Telex coax terminals up now under > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/telex/terminal > and I started trying to restore a 276-12 with integrated establishment > controller > that I'm going to have to find a keyboard for. Maybe Cindy knows of > someone who > has some more old Telex Microswitch keyboards. > > > I have a set of four binders of technical documentation for the Alfaskop 4110 series. Very often used with IBM. An overview of the Alfaskop 4110 can be found here: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/datapro/programmable_terminals/Datapro_C21_Ericsson.pdf Is more in-depth tech info for the 4110 series of interest? BTW. The only thing I have from a Alfaskop 41xx terminal IS the keyboard. Remains to find the rest.. /Mattis From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Sep 19 13:08:32 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 12:08:32 -0600 Subject: ISO 70's and 80's coax and twinax terminal docs/brochures In-Reply-To: <6965c027-6dbc-95e3-60b3-7841f31e97d3@bitsavers.org> References: <6965c027-6dbc-95e3-60b3-7841f31e97d3@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4a899f94-a73a-e280-3361-a38505eccff8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 09/19/2018 10:35 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I have also been thinking about something like the 3megabit ethernet cape > that Ken Schrriff did https://github.com/shirriff/alto-ethernet-interface > except it would replace a 3174. 3174-23R with ethernet option is complete > overkill for a situation where you want to attach one coax terminal to > ethernet, like most people wanting a real console on Hercules want to do. So would you be emulating the 3174's twinax connection and the functions it provides? Functionally being (what I think is) a controller that would in turn communicate via TN3270 across the network to Hercules? -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Sep 19 13:14:14 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 12:14:14 -0600 Subject: ISO 70's and 80's coax and twinax terminal docs/brochures In-Reply-To: <4a899f94-a73a-e280-3361-a38505eccff8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <6965c027-6dbc-95e3-60b3-7841f31e97d3@bitsavers.org> <4a899f94-a73a-e280-3361-a38505eccff8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <68ef0bcf-ae76-58e2-dd1c-401c4b4474e3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 09/19/2018 12:08 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > So would you be emulating the 3174's twinax connection and the functions > it provides?? Functionally being (what I think is) a controller that > would in turn communicate via TN3270 across the network to Hercules? You jostled my brain enough that a random thought came rattling out. There are some Multicians working on 3270 support for for a virtual FNP. This means that they already have some code to interpret (TN)3270 data streams. I think they were connecting a TN3270 client to the virtual FNP that was talking to the Multics machine. I don't know how much help that might be, but it's some existing code related to pretending to be a (TN)3270 source that is consumed by TN3270 terminals. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 19 13:32:01 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 11:32:01 -0700 Subject: ISO 70's and 80's coax and twinax terminal docs/brochures In-Reply-To: <4a899f94-a73a-e280-3361-a38505eccff8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <6965c027-6dbc-95e3-60b3-7841f31e97d3@bitsavers.org> <4a899f94-a73a-e280-3361-a38505eccff8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <4cf4f199-39ed-dfd3-bd57-f897f90f5449@bitsavers.org> On 9/19/18 11:08 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > So would you be emulating the 3174's twinax connection and the functions it provides?? Functionally being (what I think > is) a controller that would in turn communicate via TN3270 across the network to Hercules? correct. non-trivial project, but something that needs to be documented. coax and s/3x twinax terminals are similar conceptually. There were companies like Telex/Memorex/MTX/Visara, Decision Data and Lee Data that sold terminals in both flavors The ones for coax talked to 'establishment controllers' that were the actual intelligence of the terminal. The terminals themselves were essentially polled keyboards and a (80 x N line) alphanumeric display. Later multiple simultanious mainframe sessions were added to the terminals that you could switch between. Coax uses a point-point connection between controller and terminal, twinax is multi-drop through T connectors. Well, sort of. Eventually both systems migrated to phone style CAT cable with coax to RJ baluns and patch panels. There were other companies that sold serial async converters that would take the polled protocol and could turn it into something an ASCII serial terminal could deal with. Then PCs got things like "IRMA" cards that could pretend to be one of the polled terminals, buffering the alphanumeric screen image on a local RAM buffer the PC could communicate with. That evolved into hardware that could support multiple sessions as well. Same thing happened with twinax, with different vendors. 'IRMA' was a DCA/Attachmate/Microfocus thing. The hardware got more and more integrated over time. The Telex 277 has three boards of TTL in the terminal. 276 generation used two 2901s. The last of the MTX terminals were pretty much just one National DP83445 ASIC, or one 317744 CIP ASIC in the case of Attachmate. If you don't want real coax hardware, you just run TN3270. I'd like to have something runnable at the museum on period hardware, though, that might be possible to maintain, which was why I picked up the Telex. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 19 14:04:31 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 12:04:31 -0700 Subject: ISO 70's and 80's coax and twinax terminal docs/brochures In-Reply-To: <68ef0bcf-ae76-58e2-dd1c-401c4b4474e3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <6965c027-6dbc-95e3-60b3-7841f31e97d3@bitsavers.org> <4a899f94-a73a-e280-3361-a38505eccff8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <68ef0bcf-ae76-58e2-dd1c-401c4b4474e3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: I haven't heard any discussion about the Fujitsu coax terminals. I had a few, but scrapped them back in the mid 1980s. I saved a couple of the hermaphroditic twinaxial connectors from them, however. I don't recall seeing such connectors anywhere else. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 19 14:24:41 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 12:24:41 -0700 Subject: ISO 70's and 80's coax and twinax terminal docs/brochures In-Reply-To: References: <6965c027-6dbc-95e3-60b3-7841f31e97d3@bitsavers.org> <4a899f94-a73a-e280-3361-a38505eccff8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <68ef0bcf-ae76-58e2-dd1c-401c4b4474e3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 9/19/18 12:04 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I haven't heard any discussion about the Fujitsu coax terminals. There hasn't ever been much talk on cctlk about non-ASCII terminals. It's one of those things that never crossed my mind before having to deal with that world in the context of working with the Museum's holdings. Burroughs and Sperry had their own incompatible polling terminals too. Come to think of it, HP did in a big way as well, they just spoke ASCII. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Sep 19 14:30:53 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 15:30:53 -0400 Subject: ISO 70's and 80's coax and twinax terminal docs/brochures In-Reply-To: References: <6965c027-6dbc-95e3-60b3-7841f31e97d3@bitsavers.org> <4a899f94-a73a-e280-3361-a38505eccff8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <68ef0bcf-ae76-58e2-dd1c-401c4b4474e3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: > On Sep 19, 2018, at 3:24 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 9/19/18 12:04 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> I haven't heard any discussion about the Fujitsu coax terminals. > > There hasn't ever been much talk on cctlk about non-ASCII terminals. > > It's one of those things that never crossed my mind before having to deal > with that world in the context of working with the Museum's holdings. > > Burroughs and Sperry had their own incompatible polling terminals too. My "favorite" weird terminal is the Harris 2200 display advertising editing station. It was used in newspapers in the late 1970s, where I ran into it connected to DEC's Typeset-11 system. I think each terminal was a display head connected to some sort of PDP-11 controller. Not sure, it may have been something else. The communication protocol was seriously mind-bending. Multidrop BISYNC over an async line (DL11-E at the PDP11 end), half duplex with modem control signals for the poll and line direction handshakes. It usually worked. But I did have some painful 2 am debug sessions at the Philadelphia Bulletin when it didn't quite work all the time... paul From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 16:01:13 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 15:01:13 -0600 Subject: Looking for two DEC H445 power bricks for PDP 11/40 project In-Reply-To: <713307049.10898380.1537258303983@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20180917200908.7E2D818C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <713307049.10898380.1537258303983@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 2:11 AM, P Gebhardt via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > As I don't have core memory modules available, I thought of using MS11 > memory, > which, according to my research, seems to be an option for 11/40 systems. > The system manual states on page 6-7 that the base power configuration > consists > of two H745 regulators and that one may be swapped with a H754 in case > MF11-U > memory is used. > Does that mean that a single H745 regulator might be sufficient for my > needs? > If you don't have core memory, you should have three H744 in slots A, B, and C, and two H745 in slots D and E. From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 16:01:16 2018 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 16:01:16 -0500 Subject: ISO 70's and 80's coax and twinax terminal docs/brochures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 11:00 AM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > I've started to more aggressively archive material on old IBM and compatible coax and twinax > terminals and was wondering if anyone has documentation scanned or squirreled away that I don't > already have on bitsavers. Most of these have been scrapped by now, and surviving keyboards for them I don't know if you ever mirrored the IBM docs I was working on starting a couple years back, but there are quite a few terminal/comms related titles here: http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing%2FIBM%2FMainframe%2FHardware The collection I was drawing from for scans is now in other hands, but I did as many of the interesting ones as I could get to. Please take any you want for Bitsavers. -j From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 16:09:21 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 15:09:21 -0600 Subject: Looking for two DEC H445 power bricks for PDP 11/40 project In-Reply-To: <20180918142747.2584E18C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180918142747.2584E18C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 8:27 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > (Note that if you have an old > machine/harness, there's a jumper you have to add if you have only a single > H745; see the second paragraph on page 6-18 of DEC-11-H40SA-B-D.) > I totally missed that. It wasn't in the previous edition, DEC-11-H40SA-A-D. However, now I see that both editions mention that the H744 in slot C is optional, which I also was not previously aware of. Although I've had a few 11/40 machines, I didn't often have to do anything about the power supplies other than check the DC voltage and ripple. From kylevowen at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 17:43:34 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 17:43:34 -0500 Subject: Floating point math in FORTRAN IV on PDP-8 Message-ID: At VCF MW this past weekend, I was playing around with an FPP8/A stuffed into a PDP-8/M with a fan removed. This hex-wide two-board set will happily work in a quad-wide backplane, as it needs no signals that an 8/A would otherwise provide. I wanted to benchmark the FPP8/A with the software emulation that FORTRAN IV supposedly does. Mind you, I also don't have an EAE in mine, so software emulation for integer multiplication/division would also be used. I tried running a simple program to print some natural logs and square roots, which ran quite well with the FPP8/A in place. Without the FPP8/A...all of the results were wrong. Significantly. Negative numbers in many cases. No clear pattern as to what it's doing. Would anyone be able to try my program on some other real hardware (or another emulator) to verify? With and without EAE would also be desirable. I'm not sure how to disable the EAE in SIMH, else I'd try that too. Here's what SIMH looks like with my program: PDP-8 simulator V4.0-0 Current git commit id: d35b8725 sim> at rk0 disk2.fortran.rk05 sim> b rk .TYPE FLOAT.FT DO 50 I=1,100 F = FLOAT(I) G = SQRT(F) H = ALOG(F) WRITE(4,100) F,G,H 50 CONTINUE 100 FORMAT(' ',F12.6,F12.6,F12.6) END .R F4 *FLOAT/G$ 1.000002 1.000002 0.000000 2.000002 1.414215 0.693147 3.000002 1.732053 1.098614 4.000002 2.000002 1.386296 5.000002 2.236070 1.609439 [snip] 98.000001 9.899495 4.584968 99.000000 9.949874 4.595121 100.000023 10.000008 4.605171 . Much appreciated, Kyle From ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org Wed Sep 19 18:27:39 2018 From: ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org (Andrew Luke Nesbit) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 00:27:39 +0100 Subject: The Ultimate Apollo Guidance Computer Talk In-Reply-To: <5E1F4936-7668-43D9-BB13-1189D8400F44@shiresoft.com> References: <3FBE21A6-F8E7-4CAB-8AD1-C86D86DD0CC5@gmail.com> <7f5051ebc75bdf68efec6e0ac740392a.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <10FB4032-9EAF-4CAD-AA6B-23F58395187E@gmail.com> <5E1F4936-7668-43D9-BB13-1189D8400F44@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <7e28faa1-a6e4-06b8-2b62-6447bc020e8b@andrewnesbit.org> On 19/09/2018 17:51, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: > I worked with Michael when we were both at Apple (a really good/smart guy). At the time > he was focused on 6502 related stuff and we had many discussions about old hardware. All of my knowledge of the 6502 comes from my time with the Commodore 64, where I learned about the 6510. As far as I understand, the 6502 is still used regularly. Have you got any interesting examples of where the 6502 is used in contemporary work or new projects? Thanks!! Kind regards, Andrew -- OpenPGP key: EB28 0338 28B7 19DA DAB0 B193 D21D 996E 883B E5B9 From brain at jbrain.com Wed Sep 19 18:33:11 2018 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 18:33:11 -0500 Subject: The Ultimate Apollo Guidance Computer Talk In-Reply-To: <7e28faa1-a6e4-06b8-2b62-6447bc020e8b@andrewnesbit.org> References: <3FBE21A6-F8E7-4CAB-8AD1-C86D86DD0CC5@gmail.com> <7f5051ebc75bdf68efec6e0ac740392a.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <10FB4032-9EAF-4CAD-AA6B-23F58395187E@gmail.com> <5E1F4936-7668-43D9-BB13-1189D8400F44@shiresoft.com> <7e28faa1-a6e4-06b8-2b62-6447bc020e8b@andrewnesbit.org> Message-ID: On 9/19/2018 6:27 PM, Andrew Luke Nesbit via cctalk wrote: > On 19/09/2018 17:51, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: > >> I worked with Michael when we were both at Apple (a really good/smart guy). At the time >> he was focused on 6502 related stuff and we had many discussions about old hardware. > All of my knowledge of the 6502 comes from my time with the Commodore > 64, where I learned about the 6510. As far as I understand, the 6502 is > still used regularly. > > Have you got any interesting examples of where the 6502 is used in > contemporary work or new projects? Thanks!! > > Kind regards, > > Andrew Western Design Center, who designed and manufacture the WDC65C02S and WDC65C816S, tout project/product placements on their site/blog/facebook page.? That would be the most logical place to look. https://www.facebook.com/WesternDesignCenter/ I think they are focusing their units for IoT products in design wins. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 19 18:37:57 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 16:37:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Ultimate Apollo Guidance Computer Talk In-Reply-To: <7e28faa1-a6e4-06b8-2b62-6447bc020e8b@andrewnesbit.org> References: <3FBE21A6-F8E7-4CAB-8AD1-C86D86DD0CC5@gmail.com> <7f5051ebc75bdf68efec6e0ac740392a.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <10FB4032-9EAF-4CAD-AA6B-23F58395187E@gmail.com> <5E1F4936-7668-43D9-BB13-1189D8400F44@shiresoft.com> <7e28faa1-a6e4-06b8-2b62-6447bc020e8b@andrewnesbit.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Sep 2018, Andrew Luke Nesbit via cctalk wrote: > Have you got any interesting examples of where the 6502 is used in > contemporary work or new projects? Thanks!! It will be around for a while. Bender on Futurama has a 6502. From m.zahorik at sbcglobal.net Wed Sep 19 19:46:11 2018 From: m.zahorik at sbcglobal.net (Michael Zahorik) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 00:46:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Floating point math in FORTRAN IV on PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1229275163.103610.1537404371515@mail.yahoo.com> Kyle, I have not run my machine since March. Summer is car season. But I thought that maybe I could run this little program quickly. My PDP8E started up, loaded the RIM and SERIAL DISK then OS/8 ran. Everything looked good, BUT...... something is wrong with my FORTRAN 4. Programs seem to compile, but I can't even run a simple test program that prints out whatever I enter from the TTY. Something has gone south. Anyway, I'm not familiar with the command FLOAT(). Do I have to have floating point hardware to use this? Well.... either there is something wrong with my machine or more likely with my FORTRAN software or even more likely operator error (me). So many times after a long summer I have to re learn most of what I learned last winter. Kinda of like when I was in school after summer vacation. ?Mike Zahorik (414) 254-6768 From: Kyle Owen via cctalk To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 5:43 PM Subject: Floating point math in FORTRAN IV on PDP-8 At VCF MW this past weekend, I was playing around with an FPP8/A stuffed into a PDP-8/M with a fan removed. This hex-wide two-board set will happily work in a quad-wide backplane, as it needs no signals that an 8/A would otherwise provide. I wanted to benchmark the FPP8/A with the software emulation that FORTRAN IV supposedly does. Mind you, I also don't have an EAE in mine, so software emulation for integer multiplication/division would also be used. I tried running a simple program to print some natural logs and square roots, which ran quite well with the FPP8/A in place. Without the FPP8/A...all of the results were wrong. Significantly. Negative numbers in many cases. No clear pattern as to what it's doing. Would anyone be able to try my program on some other real hardware (or another emulator) to verify? With and without EAE would also be desirable. I'm not sure how to disable the EAE in SIMH, else I'd try that too. Here's what SIMH looks like with my program: PDP-8 simulator V4.0-0 Current? ? ? ? git commit id: d35b8725 sim> at rk0 disk2.fortran.rk05 sim> b rk .TYPE FLOAT.FT ? ? ? DO 50 I=1,100 ? ? ? F = FLOAT(I) ? ? ? G = SQRT(F) ? ? ? H = ALOG(F) ? ? ? WRITE(4,100) F,G,H 50? ? CONTINUE 100? FORMAT(' ',F12.6,F12.6,F12.6) ? ? ? END .R F4 *FLOAT/G$ ? ? 1.000002? ? 1.000002? ? 0.000000 ? ? 2.000002? ? 1.414215? ? 0.693147 ? ? 3.000002? ? 1.732053? ? 1.098614 ? ? 4.000002? ? 2.000002? ? 1.386296 ? ? 5.000002? ? 2.236070? ? 1.609439 [snip] ? 98.000001? ? 9.899495? ? 4.584968 ? 99.000000? ? 9.949874? ? 4.595121 ? 100.000023? 10.000008? ? 4.605171 . Much appreciated, Kyle From kylevowen at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 20:52:32 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 20:52:32 -0500 Subject: Floating point math in FORTRAN IV on PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <1229275163.103610.1537404371515@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1229275163.103610.1537404371515@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 19, 2018, 19:46 Michael Zahorik wrote: > Kyle, I have not run my machine since March. Summer is car season. But I > thought that maybe I could run this little program quickly. My PDP8E > started up, loaded the RIM and SERIAL DISK then OS/8 ran. Everything looked > good, BUT...... something is wrong with my FORTRAN 4. Programs seem to > compile, but I can't even run a simple test program that prints out > whatever I enter from the TTY. Something has gone south. Anyway, I'm not > familiar with the command FLOAT(). Do I have to have floating point > hardware to use this? Well.... either there is something wrong with my > machine or more likely with my FORTRAN software or even more likely > operator error (me). So many times after a long summer I have to re learn > most of what I learned last winter. Kinda of like when I was in school > after summer vacation. > > Mike Zahorik (414) 254-6768 > Since you're running SerialDisk...did you disable the SerialDisk interrupt, or are you running a new enough version to do so? If FRTS hangs when executing, that would be one possible explanation. FRTS is only smart enough to check the interrupts it knows about; the aux TTY interrupt is apparently not handled. Thanks! Kyle From ball.of.john at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 21:15:06 2018 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 19:15:06 -0700 Subject: Apple LaserWriter paper trays In-Reply-To: Message-ID: With VCF: PNW six months away I want to try and get something together to make a presence. I am not aware of anyone demonstrating an entire fleet of Apple machines in a configuration as advertised as "The Macintosh Office" at any recent point in history so I thought I should dedicate a table or two to that. A quick inventory tells me I can totally get multiple compact macs, a Macintosh XL, an IBM XT and a netbooting Apple IIe going with a set of common office programs and networked together with a server running Appleshare so that people can play with the software and try a few games over the network. The key component however is I need to get a LaserWriter working and networked as well so people who play with MacPaint for example can print their art out. I have access to four or five printers, of which one will come up reliably and make a presentable attempt of dispensing toner and not leafing roller sludge everywhere however while I can find cassette trays for holding paper I cannot find the two brown paper trays that attached to either side of the printer. I see quite a few on google that are also missing the trays. Would calling them uncommon be correct or might someone have a set they would be willing to part with? -John From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 19 21:52:02 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 19:52:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple LaserWriter paper trays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Sep 2018, John Ball via cctalk wrote: > With VCF: PNW six months away I want to try and get something together to > make a presence. I am not aware of anyone demonstrating an entire fleet of > Apple machines in a configuration as advertised as "The Macintosh Office" at > any recent point in history so I thought I should dedicate a table or two to > that. A quick inventory tells me I can totally get multiple compact macs, a > Macintosh XL, an IBM XT and a netbooting Apple IIe going with a set of > common office programs and networked together with a server running > Appleshare so that people can play with the software and try a few games > over the network. > The key component however is I need to get a LaserWriter working and > networked as well so people who play with MacPaint for example can print > their art out. I have access to four or five printers, of which one will > come up reliably and make a presentable attempt of dispensing toner and not > leafing roller sludge everywhere however while I can find cassette trays for > holding paper I cannot find the two brown paper trays that attached to > either side of the printer. > I see quite a few on google that are also missing the trays. Would calling > them uncommon be correct or might someone have a set they would be willing > to part with? I believe that the original/first Apple Laserwriter used the same trays, and even the same toner cartridges as the rest of the CX Canon-based printers, including HP LaserJet (first models), Cordata, Fedex, etc. I think that you could even modify the trays from the Canon PC series copiers to work, although NOT those toner cartridges, much as they resembled the CX ones. From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Sep 19 22:28:49 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 23:28:49 -0400 Subject: Apple LaserWriter paper trays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <165f505e7ed-1ec0-cc9d@webjas-vaa088.srv.aolmail.net> yes we at smecc are looking got some letter and legal trays for hp 2886a. in the box so much the better but will take in any shape (within reason!).. also an array of font carts. need also looking for whole laser 500. .. like a 2686a but more bigger paper bins... also need Laserjet 2p to match some advertising we designed when it cam out .. tips to bold a 2p displsy. drop info off list to me ed Sharpe archivist for smecc Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Wednesday, September 19, 2018 Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: On Wed, 19 Sep 2018, John Ball via cctalk wrote: > With VCF: PNW six months away I want to try and get something together to > make a presence. I am not aware of anyone demonstrating an entire fleet of > Apple machines in a configuration as advertised as "The Macintosh Office" at > any recent point in history so I thought I should dedicate a table or two to > that. A quick inventory tells me I can totally get multiple compact macs, a > Macintosh XL, an IBM XT and a netbooting Apple IIe going with a set of > common office programs and networked together with a server running > Appleshare so that people can play with the software and try a few games > over the network. > The key component however is I need to get a LaserWriter working and > networked as well so people who play with MacPaint for example can print > their art out. I have access to four or five printers, of which one will > come up reliably and make a presentable attempt of dispensing toner and not > leafing roller sludge everywhere however while I can find cassette trays for > holding paper I cannot find the two brown paper trays that attached to > either side of the printer. > I see quite a few on google that are also missing the trays. Would calling > them uncommon be correct or might someone have a set they would be willing > to part with? I believe that the original/first Apple Laserwriter used the same trays, and even the same toner cartridges as the rest of the CX Canon-based printers, including HP LaserJet (first models), Cordata, Fedex, etc. I think that you could even modify the trays from the Canon PC series copiers to work, although NOT those toner cartridges, much as they resembled the CX ones. From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Sep 19 22:35:16 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 23:35:16 -0400 Subject: Apple LaserWriter paper trays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <165f50bce4a-1ec6-129ab@webjas-vac191.srv.aolmail.net> yes canon copier should. work.. for our purposes tho.. no apple or generic canon.. want if in. box. hp w logo etc... hate to say it most tossed long ago Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Wednesday, September 19, 2018 Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: On Wed, 19 Sep 2018, John Ball via cctalk wrote: > With VCF: PNW six months away I want to try and get something together to > make a presence. I am not aware of anyone demonstrating an entire fleet of > Apple machines in a configuration as advertised as "The Macintosh Office" at > any recent point in history so I thought I should dedicate a table or two to > that. A quick inventory tells me I can totally get multiple compact macs, a > Macintosh XL, an IBM XT and a netbooting Apple IIe going with a set of > common office programs and networked together with a server running > Appleshare so that people can play with the software and try a few games > over the network. > The key component however is I need to get a LaserWriter working and > networked as well so people who play with MacPaint for example can print > their art out. I have access to four or five printers, of which one will > come up reliably and make a presentable attempt of dispensing toner and not > leafing roller sludge everywhere however while I can find cassette trays for > holding paper I cannot find the two brown paper trays that attached to > either side of the printer. > I see quite a few on google that are also missing the trays. Would calling > them uncommon be correct or might someone have a set they would be willing > to part with? I believe that the original/first Apple Laserwriter used the same trays, and even the same toner cartridges as the rest of the CX Canon-based printers, including HP LaserJet (first models), Cordata, Fedex, etc. I think that you could even modify the trays from the Canon PC series copiers to work, although NOT those toner cartridges, much as they resembled the CX ones. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 19 22:37:17 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 20:37:17 -0700 Subject: Apple LaserWriter paper trays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <37fc2702-49b4-b4bb-f5ad-eba7a639a1e3@bitsavers.org> On 9/19/18 7:52 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 19 Sep 2018, John Ball via cctalk wrote: > >> while I can find cassette trays for >> holding paper I cannot find the two brown paper trays that attached to >> either side of the printer. >> > I believe that the original/first Apple Laserwriter used the same trays, > and even the same toner cartridges as the rest of the CX Canon-based > printers He's asking about the egress and ingest shelves. Ingest you can live without if you have a paper carrier. Without the egress shelf, the paper falls on the floor. You can find the paper carriers pretty easily, but not the shelves. I found a box of paper carriers a day or two ago, I'll look again for the shelves. From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Sep 19 22:42:24 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 23:42:24 -0400 Subject: Apple LaserWriter paper trays In-Reply-To: <37fc2702-49b4-b4bb-f5ad-eba7a639a1e3@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <165f51255c9-1ec4-942c@webjas-vac081.srv.aolmail.net> when? we? closed? we? had? stacks of? those? shelf? things? yea? can use? some? too.. ? we? tossed a? bunch... ? ? In a message dated 9/19/2018 8:36:33 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? On 9/19/18 7:52 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 19 Sep 2018, John Ball via cctalk wrote: > >> while I can find cassette trays for >> holding paper I cannot find the two brown paper trays that attached to >> either side of the printer. >> > I believe that the original/first Apple Laserwriter used the same trays, > and even the same toner cartridges as the rest of the CX Canon-based > printers He's asking about the egress and ingest shelves. Ingest you can live without if you have a paper carrier. Without the egress shelf, the paper falls on the floor. You can find the paper carriers pretty easily, but not the shelves. I found a box of paper carriers a day or two ago, I'll look again for the shelves. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 19 22:48:00 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 20:48:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple LaserWriter paper trays In-Reply-To: <37fc2702-49b4-b4bb-f5ad-eba7a639a1e3@bitsavers.org> References: <37fc2702-49b4-b4bb-f5ad-eba7a639a1e3@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: >>> while I can find cassette trays for >>> holding paper I cannot find the two brown paper trays that attached to >>> either side of the printer. On Wed, 19 Sep 2018, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > He's asking about the egress and ingest shelves. Ingest you can live without > if you have a paper carrier. Without the egress shelf, the paper falls on the > floor. > You can find the paper carriers pretty easily, but not the shelves. > I found a box of paper carriers a day or two ago, I'll look again for the shelves. OK, sorry for my confusion. I once made a hanging basket for that. It caught the paper, AND it put the first page "on top" > You can find the paper carriers pretty easily, but not the shelves. > I found a box of paper carriers a day or two ago, I'll look again for the she$ I have a Canon PC copier with them. You'd have to come get them in Berkeley, and take the whole copier. (probably working) Likewise, I have laserjet IIP, but I do not want to even think about shipping it. (printer: FREE; shipping From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Sep 19 23:35:06 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 00:35:06 -0400 Subject: Apple LaserWriter paper trays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <165f5428de1-1ec1-93b1@webjas-vaa213.srv.aolmail.net> most printers and teletypes and heavy stuff arrive via someone pasing thru on Vacation! have no idea what it would cost to ship a 2p laser (and the add on paper tray.I remember it having... do not know how far away you are either. where are u? Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Wednesday, September 19, 2018 Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> while I can find cassette trays for >>> holding paper I cannot find the two brown paper trays that attached to >>> either side of the printer. On Wed, 19 Sep 2018, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > He's asking about the egress and ingest shelves. Ingest you can live without > if you have a paper carrier. Without the egress shelf, the paper falls on the > floor. > You can find the paper carriers pretty easily, but not the shelves. > I found a box of paper carriers a day or two ago, I'll look again for the shelves. OK, sorry for my confusion. I once made a hanging basket for that. It caught the paper, AND it put the first page "on top" > You can find the paper carriers pretty easily, but not the shelves. > I found a box of paper carriers a day or two ago, I'll look again for the she$ I have a Canon PC copier with them. You'd have to come get them in Berkeley, and take the whole copier. (probably working) Likewise, I have laserjet IIP, but I do not want to even think about shipping it. (printer: FREE; shipping From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Thu Sep 20 00:12:00 2018 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (mark at wickensonline.co.uk) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 06:12:00 +0100 Subject: Floating point math in FORTRAN IV on PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006c01d450a0$763f8210$62be8630$@wickensonline.co.uk> Hi Kyle Just out of interest I ran this on VAX Fortran (Compaq Fortran 77 6.6-201) and I think got the results expected: $ type for004.dat 1.000000 1.000000 0.000000 2.000000 1.414214 0.693147 3.000000 1.732051 1.098612 4.000000 2.000000 1.386294 5.000000 2.236068 1.609438 ... 98.000000 9.899495 4.584968 99.000000 9.949874 4.595120 100.000000 10.000000 4.605170 However, I am no Fortran expert! Regards, Mark. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Kyle Owen via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 11:44 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Floating point math in FORTRAN IV on PDP-8 At VCF MW this past weekend, I was playing around with an FPP8/A stuffed into a PDP-8/M with a fan removed. This hex-wide two-board set will happily work in a quad-wide backplane, as it needs no signals that an 8/A would otherwise provide. I wanted to benchmark the FPP8/A with the software emulation that FORTRAN IV supposedly does. Mind you, I also don't have an EAE in mine, so software emulation for integer multiplication/division would also be used. I tried running a simple program to print some natural logs and square roots, which ran quite well with the FPP8/A in place. Without the FPP8/A...all of the results were wrong. Significantly. Negative numbers in many cases. No clear pattern as to what it's doing. Would anyone be able to try my program on some other real hardware (or another emulator) to verify? With and without EAE would also be desirable. I'm not sure how to disable the EAE in SIMH, else I'd try that too. Here's what SIMH looks like with my program: PDP-8 simulator V4.0-0 Current git commit id: d35b8725 sim> at rk0 disk2.fortran.rk05 sim> b rk .TYPE FLOAT.FT DO 50 I=1,100 F = FLOAT(I) G = SQRT(F) H = ALOG(F) WRITE(4,100) F,G,H 50 CONTINUE 100 FORMAT(' ',F12.6,F12.6,F12.6) END .R F4 *FLOAT/G$ 1.000002 1.000002 0.000000 2.000002 1.414215 0.693147 3.000002 1.732053 1.098614 4.000002 2.000002 1.386296 5.000002 2.236070 1.609439 [snip] 98.000001 9.899495 4.584968 99.000000 9.949874 4.595121 100.000023 10.000008 4.605171 . Much appreciated, Kyle From useddec at gmail.com Thu Sep 20 01:22:14 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 01:22:14 -0500 Subject: Looking for two DEC H445 power bricks for PDP 11/40 project In-Reply-To: References: <20180918142747.2584E18C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I grabbed a 11/60, 11/35 system manual. wanting to see hot power was set up in the BA11-D and -K, only to find it dealt with the BA11-F only. It does state the H754 in used with the MF11-U/UP. needless to say, there are different plugs for slot "E" and possibly a change or a jumper. I will look for a 11/35 book specifically next time I go downstairs. My 11/40 does have 2 H745s in it. I see no reason to use both at this point. I think one can supply enough current unless you overload it with a bunch of 8K core. I plan on putting either 8 16K core stacks in(for winter only) or an MS11-LD (256KB). Pierre, a lot of my bricks are buried. I'll try to did them out tomorrow. Thanks, Paul On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 4:09 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 8:27 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > (Note that if you have an old > > machine/harness, there's a jumper you have to add if you have only a > single > > H745; see the second paragraph on page 6-18 of DEC-11-H40SA-B-D.) > > > > I totally missed that. It wasn't in the previous edition, DEC-11-H40SA-A-D. > > However, now I see that both editions mention that the H744 in slot C is > optional, which I also was not previously aware of. > > Although I've had a few 11/40 machines, I didn't often have to do anything > about the power supplies other than check the DC voltage and ripple. > From useddec at gmail.com Thu Sep 20 01:24:18 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 01:24:18 -0500 Subject: Looking for two DEC H445 power bricks for PDP 11/40 project In-Reply-To: References: <20180918142747.2584E18C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I also saw some notes about different wiring harnesses for different serial numbers. A lot to be careful with. On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 1:22 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I grabbed a 11/60, 11/35 system manual. wanting to see hot power was set > up in the BA11-D and -K, only to find it dealt with the BA11-F only. > > It does state the H754 in used with the MF11-U/UP. needless to say, there > are different plugs for slot "E" and possibly a change or a jumper. > > I will look for a 11/35 book specifically next time I go downstairs. > > My 11/40 does have 2 H745s in it. I see no reason to use both at this > point. I think one can supply enough current unless you overload it with a > bunch of 8K core. > > I plan on putting either 8 16K core stacks in(for winter only) or an > MS11-LD (256KB). > > Pierre, a lot of my bricks are buried. I'll try to did them out tomorrow. > > Thanks, Paul > > On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 4:09 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 8:27 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >> > (Note that if you have an old >> > machine/harness, there's a jumper you have to add if you have only a >> single >> > H745; see the second paragraph on page 6-18 of DEC-11-H40SA-B-D.) >> > >> >> I totally missed that. It wasn't in the previous edition, >> DEC-11-H40SA-A-D. >> >> However, now I see that both editions mention that the H744 in slot C is >> optional, which I also was not previously aware of. >> >> Although I've had a few 11/40 machines, I didn't often have to do anything >> about the power supplies other than check the DC voltage and ripple. >> > > From evanlinwood at hotmail.com Thu Sep 20 05:10:10 2018 From: evanlinwood at hotmail.com (Evan Linwood) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 10:10:10 +0000 Subject: ISO 70's and 80's coax and twinax terminal docs/brochures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I've started to more aggressively archive material on old IBM and compatible coax and twinax I'm not sure if this helps - they seem like they may be in the disposal chain though, might possibly be able to grab manuals if they come up? http://www.a1usedcomputers.com.au/shop/prodList.asp?idCategory=256 From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 20 08:27:14 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 06:27:14 -0700 Subject: ISO 70's and 80's coax and twinax terminal docs/brochures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/20/18 3:10 AM, Evan Linwood via cctalk wrote: >> I've started to more aggressively archive material on old IBM and compatible coax and twinax > > I'm not sure if this helps - they seem like they may be in the disposal chain though, might possibly be able to grab manuals if they come up? > http://www.a1usedcomputers.com.au/shop/prodList.asp?idCategory=256 > That would be good, A1 seems to have a lot of the more recent stuff listed. I haven't pursued anything with them since they are in Australia. The other thing I've not been able to turn up so far are the part numbers for the keyboards that go with third-party terminals, and what their key layout is. With the exception of the one Microswitch Telex keyboard Cindy found, there is very little documented on 70-80's non-IBM keyboards. I would imagine there are still piles of them from the 90's out there, and maybe the kb collectors haven't picked over them yet because they don't know what they are. While not period correct, at least the less collectable 88 and 122 key rubber dome or foam and foil ones have the correct key layout. From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Sep 20 22:20:09 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 21:20:09 -0600 Subject: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives Message-ID: Anyone have advice on making thermite? Ingredients, sources, proportions? The internet seems to think that just using aluminum powder with ferric oxide is relatively hard to ignite, and that some manganese dioxide would help with that. Without spending too much time shopping, it looks like I can get: * aluminum powder, 5 micron, 2 lb for $34 * ferric oxide, 10 lb for $27 * manganese dioxide, 1 lb for $39 From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 20 22:33:33 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 20:33:33 -0700 Subject: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8b8df811-f9af-78fb-0867-b81c9beb2965@sydex.com> On 09/20/2018 08:20 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > Anyone have advice on making thermite? Ingredients, sources, proportions? > > The internet seems to think that just using aluminum powder with ferric > oxide is relatively hard to ignite, and that some manganese dioxide would > help with that. > > Without spending too much time shopping, it looks like I can get: > * aluminum powder, 5 micron, 2 lb for $34 > * ferric oxide, 10 lb for $27 > * manganese dioxide, 1 lb for $39 I'd just give the drive to my friend with a big chipper "hog" and watch the destruction. Maybe run over it with his D8 Cat a few times. A good hydraulic press should help. Or just melt the thing down in a forge. --Chuck From drlegendre at gmail.com Thu Sep 20 22:37:57 2018 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 22:37:57 -0500 Subject: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you're that intent on firey destruction, it would be much simpler & safer to use an oxyacetylene cutting torch, or a plasma cutter. On Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 10:20 PM Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > Anyone have advice on making thermite? Ingredients, sources, proportions? > > The internet seems to think that just using aluminum powder with ferric > oxide is relatively hard to ignite, and that some manganese dioxide would > help with that. > > Without spending too much time shopping, it looks like I can get: > * aluminum powder, 5 micron, 2 lb for $34 > * ferric oxide, 10 lb for $27 > * manganese dioxide, 1 lb for $39 > From jzatar2 at illinois.edu Thu Sep 20 22:41:36 2018 From: jzatar2 at illinois.edu (Joseph Zatarski) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 22:41:36 -0500 Subject: HP CPU32 Emulation Adapter In-Reply-To: <9dfcfee3-44e0-2da4-0eb5-3d3fad0d8cde@illinois.edu> References: <9dfcfee3-44e0-2da4-0eb5-3d3fad0d8cde@illinois.edu> Message-ID: Hello everyone, This is a longshot, but I was wondering if anybody has or knows someone who might have a very specific HP part. It's the HP E3417A, a PQFP132 PGA interposer for some HP emulation/debug preprocessor stuff for CPU32 (among other 132 pin QFP). Basically I came into an HP logic analyzer with a full preprocessor setup for 160 pin QFP CPU32 procs. 16700A with emulator option, E2480A preprocessor for CPU32, and a 160 pin QFP elastomeric socket with the flex cable. But, I've got one of these: https://hackaday.io/project/6150-beckman-du600-reverse-engineering That board has a 132 pin QFP, but with the right adapter, it should be supported by the hardware I've got here. Thanks, Joe Zatarski From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Thu Sep 20 23:39:28 2018 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 01:39:28 -0300 Subject: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Have you heard about a pointy hammer? :) 2018-09-21 0:37 GMT-03:00 drlegendre via cctalk : > If you're that intent on firey destruction, it would be much simpler & > safer to use an oxyacetylene cutting torch, or a plasma cutter. > > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 10:20 PM Eric Smith via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > Anyone have advice on making thermite? Ingredients, sources, proportions? > > > > The internet seems to think that just using aluminum powder with ferric > > oxide is relatively hard to ignite, and that some manganese dioxide would > > help with that. > > > > Without spending too much time shopping, it looks like I can get: > > * aluminum powder, 5 micron, 2 lb for $34 > > * ferric oxide, 10 lb for $27 > > * manganese dioxide, 1 lb for $39 > > > From ian.finder at gmail.com Thu Sep 20 15:19:35 2018 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 13:19:35 -0700 Subject: In search of microchannel P390 card... Message-ID: If you have a lead on one, please ping me off-list. I have a very specific project I'm trying to accomplish. thanks From engwalljonathanthereal at gmail.com Thu Sep 20 16:51:41 2018 From: engwalljonathanthereal at gmail.com (Jonathan Engwall) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 14:51:41 -0700 Subject: Floating point math in FORTRAN IV on PDP-8 Message-ID: My SIMH resists anything but Adventure, I am working through a Fortran IV. I think you break from the loop and confuse the machine using i. That with some error checking: .TYPE FLOAT.FT ????? DO 50 X=1,100 ????? F = FLOAT(X) ????? G = SQRT(F) IF (G) (11,11,90) 11 WRITE(4,75) G 75 FORMAT(H 5,ERROR) 90?? H = ALOG(F) ????? WRITE(4,99) F,G,H 99?? FORMAT(' ',E12.6,E12.6,E12.6) 50??? CONTINUE WRITE(4,100) F,G,H 100?? FORMAT(' ',E12.6,E12.6,E12.6) ????? END My for fortran IV book and I are the same age,LoL Jonathan Engwall engwalljonathanthereal at gmail.com On September 19, 2018, at 11:10 PM, mark--- via cctalk wrote: Hi Kyle Just out of interest I ran this on VAX Fortran (Compaq Fortran 77 6.6-201) and I think got the results expected: $ type for004.dat 1.000000 1.000000 0.000000 2.000000 1.414214 0.693147 3.000000 1.732051 1.098612 4.000000 2.000000 1.386294 5.000000 2.236068 1.609438 ... 98.000000 9.899495 4.584968 99.000000 9.949874 4.595120 100.000000 10.000000 4.605170 However, I am no Fortran expert! Regards, Mark. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Kyle Owen via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 11:44 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Floating point math in FORTRAN IV on PDP-8 At VCF MW this past weekend, I was playing around with an FPP8/A stuffed into a PDP-8/M with a fan removed. This hex-wide two-board set will happily work in a quad-wide backplane, as it needs no signals that an 8/A would otherwise provide. I wanted to benchmark the FPP8/A with the software emulation that FORTRAN IV supposedly does. Mind you, I also don't have an EAE in mine, so software emulation for integer multiplication/division would also be used. I tried running a simple program to print some natural logs and square roots, which ran quite well with the FPP8/A in place. Without the FPP8/A...all of the results were wrong. Significantly. Negative numbers in many cases. No clear pattern as to what it's doing. Would anyone be able to try my program on some other real hardware (or another emulator) to verify? With and without EAE would also be desirable. I'm not sure how to disable the EAE in SIMH, else I'd try that too. Here's what SIMH looks like with my program: PDP-8 simulator V4.0-0 Current git commit id: d35b8725 sim> at rk0 disk2.fortran.rk05 sim> b rk .TYPE FLOAT.FT DO 50 I=1,100 F = FLOAT(I) G = SQRT(F) H = ALOG(F) WRITE(4,100) F,G,H 50 CONTINUE 100 FORMAT(' ',F12.6,F12.6,F12.6) END .R F4 *FLOAT/G$ 1.000002 1.000002 0.000000 2.000002 1.414215 0.693147 3.000002 1.732053 1.098614 4.000002 2.000002 1.386296 5.000002 2.236070 1.609439 [snip] 98.000001 9.899495 4.584968 99.000000 9.949874 4.595121 100.000023 10.000008 4.605171 . Much appreciated, Kyle From aperry at snowmoose.com Fri Sep 21 00:17:54 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 22:17:54 -0700 Subject: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I find it enjoyable to disassemble the drives that I want to dispose of. I take all of the metal bits and throw them in my scrap metal recycling bin. I throw the boards in my electronics/e-waste recycling bin. I used to keep the magnets, but I have a pretty good magnet collection now and, with newer drives, it is too much work to remove the magnets from the parts they are bonded to. alan On 9/20/18 9:39 PM, Alexandre Souza via cctalk wrote: > Have you heard about a pointy hammer? :) > > > 2018-09-21 0:37 GMT-03:00 drlegendre via cctalk : > >> If you're that intent on firey destruction, it would be much simpler & >> safer to use an oxyacetylene cutting torch, or a plasma cutter. >> >> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 10:20 PM Eric Smith via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> >> wrote: >> >>> Anyone have advice on making thermite? Ingredients, sources, proportions? >>> >>> The internet seems to think that just using aluminum powder with ferric >>> oxide is relatively hard to ignite, and that some manganese dioxide would >>> help with that. >>> >>> Without spending too much time shopping, it looks like I can get: >>> * aluminum powder, 5 micron, 2 lb for $34 >>> * ferric oxide, 10 lb for $27 >>> * manganese dioxide, 1 lb for $39 >>> From wayne.sudol at hotmail.com Fri Sep 21 00:27:51 2018 From: wayne.sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne S) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 05:27:51 +0000 Subject: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Be aware that a cheap way of making fairly pure oxygen is just by heating up manganese dioxide, which will cause anything that is a like a flame to burn much hotter. I remember doing an experiment in grade school where you heat up a tablespoonfull of MD in a test tube with an alcohol burner or (even a match under the tube), then slowly insert a popsicle stick with a glowing ember (you light the stick with a match then blow it out to get the glowing ember). The result is that the stick bursts into flame rather violently. Just saying "BE CAREFUL". Wayne > On Sep 20, 2018, at 9:39 PM, Alexandre Souza via cctalk wrote: > > Have you heard about a pointy hammer? :) > > > 2018-09-21 0:37 GMT-03:00 drlegendre via cctalk : > >> If you're that intent on firey destruction, it would be much simpler & >> safer to use an oxyacetylene cutting torch, or a plasma cutter. >> >> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 10:20 PM Eric Smith via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> >> wrote: >> >>> Anyone have advice on making thermite? Ingredients, sources, proportions? >>> >>> The internet seems to think that just using aluminum powder with ferric >>> oxide is relatively hard to ignite, and that some manganese dioxide would >>> help with that. >>> >>> Without spending too much time shopping, it looks like I can get: >>> * aluminum powder, 5 micron, 2 lb for $34 >>> * ferric oxide, 10 lb for $27 >>> * manganese dioxide, 1 lb for $39 >> From carlojpisani at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 05:04:38 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 12:04:38 +0200 Subject: HP CPU32 Emulation Adapter In-Reply-To: References: <9dfcfee3-44e0-2da4-0eb5-3d3fad0d8cde@illinois.edu> Message-ID: > But, I've got one of these: > https://hackaday.io/project/6150-beckman-du600-reverse-engineering hi where did you find it? here I have an EVS board, by motorola :P From carlojpisani at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 05:21:21 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 12:21:21 +0200 Subject: Hitex ICE for Motorola 68hc11 In-Reply-To: References: <9dfcfee3-44e0-2da4-0eb5-3d3fad0d8cde@illinois.edu> Message-ID: hi has anyone ever used Hitex ICE for Motorola 68hc11? if so, with which software? cheers From robert626001 at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 06:48:30 2018 From: robert626001 at gmail.com (Robert) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 06:48:30 -0500 Subject: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If my memory of O Level chemistry classes is anything to go by, the idea was that you used a piece of Magnesium ribbon to ignite it. I don't recall Manganese Dioxide being part of the recipe. On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 10:20 PM Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > > Anyone have advice on making thermite? Ingredients, sources, proportions? > > The internet seems to think that just using aluminum powder with ferric > oxide is relatively hard to ignite, and that some manganese dioxide would > help with that. > > Without spending too much time shopping, it looks like I can get: > * aluminum powder, 5 micron, 2 lb for $34 > * ferric oxide, 10 lb for $27 > * manganese dioxide, 1 lb for $39 From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Sep 21 07:04:39 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 12:04:39 +0000 Subject: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Or just throw it in the garbage.? Do you really think people are going thru your stuff looking for data? bill On 09/20/2018 11:37 PM, drlegendre via cctalk wrote: > If you're that intent on firey destruction, it would be much simpler & > safer to use an oxyacetylene cutting torch, or a plasma cutter. > > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 10:20 PM Eric Smith via cctalk > wrote: > >> Anyone have advice on making thermite? Ingredients, sources, proportions? >> >> The internet seems to think that just using aluminum powder with ferric >> oxide is relatively hard to ignite, and that some manganese dioxide would >> help with that. >> >> Without spending too much time shopping, it looks like I can get: >> * aluminum powder, 5 micron, 2 lb for $34 >> * ferric oxide, 10 lb for $27 >> * manganese dioxide, 1 lb for $39 >> From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 07:10:30 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 08:10:30 -0400 Subject: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I can only assume someone is paying you to do this for insurance or legal purposes. There is a good poem, "John Barleycorn Must Die" which has a lot of useful suggestions. bill On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 8:04 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Or just throw it in the garbage. Do you really think people are going > thru your > > stuff looking for data? > > > bill > > > > On 09/20/2018 11:37 PM, drlegendre via cctalk wrote: > > If you're that intent on firey destruction, it would be much simpler & > > safer to use an oxyacetylene cutting torch, or a plasma cutter. > > > > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 10:20 PM Eric Smith via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > >> Anyone have advice on making thermite? Ingredients, sources, > proportions? > >> > >> The internet seems to think that just using aluminum powder with ferric > >> oxide is relatively hard to ignite, and that some manganese dioxide > would > >> help with that. > >> > >> Without spending too much time shopping, it looks like I can get: > >> * aluminum powder, 5 micron, 2 lb for $34 > >> * ferric oxide, 10 lb for $27 > >> * manganese dioxide, 1 lb for $39 > >> > > From systems.glitch at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 07:51:47 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 08:51:47 -0400 Subject: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Burning of potassium permanganate to manganese greensand will often get it going. You are on your own for figuring out how to do that. Thermite is not the ultimate destructive force some people seem to think it is. If you're trying to totally liquefy the platters you'll probably need to remove them from the drives and put them in something capable of containing the thermite for at least a little while (e.g. graphite crucible). The usual, "put it in a flower pot" will likely either result in a mess or a smallish hole through the platter, which really isn't any better than running a drill through it. The suggestion of using an acetylene torch is far more practical, if you for some reason are really needing to turn platters into blobs. Thanks, Jonathan On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 8:45 AM Robert via cctalk wrote: > If my memory of O Level chemistry classes is anything to go by, the > idea was that you used a piece of Magnesium ribbon to ignite it. I > don't recall Manganese Dioxide being part of the recipe. > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 10:20 PM Eric Smith via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Anyone have advice on making thermite? Ingredients, sources, proportions? > > > > The internet seems to think that just using aluminum powder with ferric > > oxide is relatively hard to ignite, and that some manganese dioxide would > > help with that. > > > > Without spending too much time shopping, it looks like I can get: > > * aluminum powder, 5 micron, 2 lb for $34 > > * ferric oxide, 10 lb for $27 > > * manganese dioxide, 1 lb for $39 > From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 08:07:58 2018 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 08:07:58 -0500 Subject: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Take them up to the 'range, around Virginia or Eveleth MN, and pay one of the demo crews to stick the drives at the bottom of their next borehole. Ka-blooey! Nothing left but an artificial bauxite deposit. On Fri, Sep 21, 2018, 7:10 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > I can only assume someone is paying you to do this for insurance or legal > purposes. There is a good poem, "John Barleycorn Must Die" which has a lot > of useful suggestions. > bill > > On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 8:04 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Or just throw it in the garbage. Do you really think people are going > > thru your > > > > stuff looking for data? > > > > > > bill > > > > > > > > On 09/20/2018 11:37 PM, drlegendre via cctalk wrote: > > > If you're that intent on firey destruction, it would be much simpler & > > > safer to use an oxyacetylene cutting torch, or a plasma cutter. > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 10:20 PM Eric Smith via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > > wrote: > > > > > >> Anyone have advice on making thermite? Ingredients, sources, > > proportions? > > >> > > >> The internet seems to think that just using aluminum powder with > ferric > > >> oxide is relatively hard to ignite, and that some manganese dioxide > > would > > >> help with that. > > >> > > >> Without spending too much time shopping, it looks like I can get: > > >> * aluminum powder, 5 micron, 2 lb for $34 > > >> * ferric oxide, 10 lb for $27 > > >> * manganese dioxide, 1 lb for $39 > > >> > > > > > From cym224 at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 08:53:48 2018 From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 09:53:48 -0400 Subject: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives Message-ID: On 20 September 2018 at 23:20, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > Anyone have advice on making thermite? Ingredients, sources, proportions? > NIST SP 800-88 Rev. 1? There is some milspec about sanding the platters that actually specified what grit to use but I do not remember the title. N. From cctalk at emailtoilet.com Fri Sep 21 09:13:48 2018 From: cctalk at emailtoilet.com (cctalk at emailtoilet.com) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 07:13:48 -0700 Subject: Buy Herman's house! Message-ID: <008501d451b5$50d6c590$f28450b0$@emailtoilet.com> Mr. Hollerith's house is available. https://www.wsj.com/articles/forgotten-tech-pioneers-d-c-estate-asks-almost- 19-million-1537456578?emailToken=bb675bfcb9f6274f6e8c1b05ae28f2344xumjbywJXs AwzIJYvBg3RJlRIZHZMV6ZNib7ahvK98qrcXxNgBADqPZCBCTTSWKSViH7isyQ4Ra78fLGOUMQtm bpNzGJ7UynZ+6QLN+6DJX7vdRFal288hJJHrIqDHw &reflink=article_copyURL_share From pete at petelancashire.com Fri Sep 21 09:18:47 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 07:18:47 -0700 Subject: HP 2000 /2100 emulator ? Message-ID: I will soon have a teletype model 35 all cleaned up and running Why like is some suggestions for something I can put in the base and emulate an HP 2000 or even in modern 2100 my goal is nothing serious I'd love to be able to do HP basic and find the version of Star Trek I think that was the name of the game just show I can demonstrate the friends how cool these machines were. If I could have my dream come true the emulator would be on a little SBC running Linux t Or even a simple OS that upon being powered up it would display login or was that log on on the teletype pretty much having the coat hard-coated but still having an area for saving files. Thanks and thanks for all the previous assistance members of this group of this list have given me From jzatar2 at illinois.edu Fri Sep 21 09:50:53 2018 From: jzatar2 at illinois.edu (Joseph Zatarski) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 09:50:53 -0500 Subject: Beckman DU600 MC68332 SBC (Was: HP CPU32 Emulation Adapter) In-Reply-To: References: <9dfcfee3-44e0-2da4-0eb5-3d3fad0d8cde@illinois.edu> Message-ID: That board came out of the instrument it belongs to (a Beckman DU600), which came out of the trash here. I've put quite a bit of time into reverse engineering the hardware as well as porting and writing some software. The most recent thing I've done with it is port an old version of minix. https://youtu.be/s8kXpKJqy9U https://imgur.com/a/JGS0X On 09/21/2018 05:04 AM, Carlo Pisani wrote: >> But, I've got one of these: >> https://hackaday.io/project/6150-beckman-du600-reverse-engineering > hi > where did you find it? > here I have an EVS board, by motorola :P From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 11:19:53 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 10:19:53 -0600 Subject: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 6:04 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Or just throw it in the garbage. That's way too good for these *&#$ing ST3000DM001 drives, and won't provide anywhere near enough sense of satisfaction. > Do you really think people are going > thru your stuff looking for data? > No, not worried about that at all. Disk was encrypted (dmcrypt/LUKS) and keys have been destroyed. Not to mention that most of these drives managed to destroy the data on their own initiative. From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 11:42:11 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 10:42:11 -0600 Subject: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 6:51 AM, systems_glitch via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Burning of potassium permanganate to manganese greensand will often get it > going. You are on your own for figuring out how to do that. > Multiple sources, including Robert on this list, tell me just to use magnesium ribbon. I just looked it up; it's inexpensive and should be very easy to use. > Thermite is not the ultimate destructive force some people seem to think it > is. If you're trying to totally liquefy the platters you'll probably need > to remove them from the drives and put them in something capable of > containing the thermite for at least a little while (e.g. graphite > crucible). The usual, "put it in a flower pot" will likely either result in > a mess or a smallish hole through the platter, which really isn't any > better than running a drill through it. > All the more reason to experiment with it! Elsewhere it's been suggested that somewhere between 0.25 and 0.5 kg of thermite ought to do the job without needing to disassemble the drive first. I've got sixteen drives to experiment with. From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Sep 21 11:43:05 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 12:43:05 -0400 Subject: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <165fd0370da-1ec7-17873@webjas-vae017.srv.aolmail.net> Hmmm...? OK? ?take a? giant? sledge and beat the living? hell out? of? it Great? physical release and? ?data? pretty well? ?toast... and the sound is.... glorious! ? And? besides.... you get? some? exercise! ? Ed# ? ? ? ? ? ? In a message dated 9/21/2018 9:20:25 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 6:04 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Or just throw it in the garbage. That's way too good for these *&#$ing ST3000DM001 drives, and won't provide anywhere near enough sense of satisfaction. > Do you really think people are going > thru your stuff looking for data? > No, not worried about that at all. Disk was encrypted (dmcrypt/LUKS) and keys have been destroyed. Not to mention that most of these drives managed to destroy the data on their own initiative. From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 11:50:39 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 10:50:39 -0600 Subject: HP 2000 /2100 emulator ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 8:18 AM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > emulate an HP 2000 or even in modern 2100 my goal is nothing serious I'd > love to be able to do HP basic and find the version of Star Trek I think > > If I could have my dream come true the emulator would be on a little SBC > running Linux t > SIMH can do that and runs just fine on a Raspberry Pi, or probably on any other Linux SBC. From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Sep 21 11:54:56 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 09:54:56 -0700 Subject: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives In-Reply-To: <165fd0370da-1ec7-17873@webjas-vae017.srv.aolmail.net> References: <165fd0370da-1ec7-17873@webjas-vae017.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <3BB06E09-5F2E-4E0D-BB07-20E221F77E31@shiresoft.com> If I wanted to reduce a drive to slag, I?d just put it in a propane furnace (actually the drive would go into the crucible). They generate up to 2700F (~1500C) and they?re for melting gold, silver, copper, etc. So I suspect it would do the job. ;-) Plus you?d a nice molten mess that you can pour out. TTFN - Guy > On Sep 21, 2018, at 9:43 AM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > > Hmmm... OK take a giant sledge and beat the living hell out of it > > > Great physical release and data pretty well toast... and the sound is.... glorious! > > And besides.... you get some exercise! > > Ed# > > > > > > > In a message dated 9/21/2018 9:20:25 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > > On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 6:04 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Or just throw it in the garbage. > > > That's way too good for these *&#$ing ST3000DM001 drives, and won't provide > anywhere near enough sense of satisfaction. > > > >> Do you really think people are going >> thru your stuff looking for data? >> > > No, not worried about that at all. Disk was encrypted (dmcrypt/LUKS) and > keys have been destroyed. Not to mention that most of these drives managed > to destroy the data on their own initiative. From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Sep 21 12:01:56 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 13:01:56 -0400 Subject: HP 2000 /2100 emulator ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <165fd14a5cb-1ec1-1635e@webjas-vac159.srv.aolmail.net> yea? ?doing the? same? here? at? SMECC? at? some point.... we have a? 2000 access system? but? ?probably needs? work and and a? disck? drive and besides? who wants to power and cool it? 24/7? ? I? need a? couple? extra? front panels I make? blink (? do not? want to mess? with the? ones? belonging? to system.. )) and st the? 33 or? 35? in front t of it. ? ? would? love a? 2883? disk? drive?? even willing to ship its? 500 lb mass across? country.... ? ? ed sharpe archivist for smecc ? In a message dated 9/21/2018 9:50:45 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 8:18 AM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > emulate an HP 2000 or even in modern 2100 my goal is nothing serious I'd > love to be able to do HP basic and find the version of Star Trek I think > > If I could have my dream come true the emulator would be on a little SBC > running Linux t > SIMH can do that and runs just fine on a Raspberry Pi, or probably on any other Linux SBC. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 21 12:28:07 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 10:28:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Sep 2018, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Or just throw it in the garbage.? Do you really think people are going > thru your stuff looking for data? Put it in a gift-wrapped box next to you on the bus. Whoever steals it will get just what they deserve. From abuse at cabal.org.uk Fri Sep 21 12:37:25 2018 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 19:37:25 +0200 Subject: Buy Herman's house! In-Reply-To: <008501d451b5$50d6c590$f28450b0$@emailtoilet.com> References: <008501d451b5$50d6c590$f28450b0$@emailtoilet.com> Message-ID: <20180921173725.nqxjgypvtymfedlv@mooli.org.uk> On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 07:13:48AM -0700, Donald via cctalk wrote: > Mr. Hollerith's house is available. Is it... a house of cards? Thank you, I'll be here all week. From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 12:42:12 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 11:42:12 -0600 Subject: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 11:28 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Put it in a gift-wrapped box next to you on the bus. > Whoever steals it will get just what they deserve. > :-) But actually I wouldn't wish ST3000DM001 drives on my worst enemy! From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Sep 21 12:45:44 2018 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 13:45:44 -0400 Subject: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3ed5fc83-5695-71a6-5834-b70af36e7906@e-bbes.com> On 2018-09-21 13:42, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 11:28 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Put it in a gift-wrapped box next to you on the bus. >> Whoever steals it will get just what they deserve. >> > > :-) > > But actually I wouldn't wish ST3000DM001 drives on my worst enemy! Keep them for "Independence Day III" ;-) From abuse at cabal.org.uk Fri Sep 21 12:48:54 2018 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 19:48:54 +0200 Subject: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20180921174853.s4mcibrcomnyo3jq@mooli.org.uk> On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 12:04:39PM +0000, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Or just throw it in the garbage. [...] More satisfying: write "Bitcoins" on it before leaving it lying around somewhere it's likely to get stolen. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 21 13:06:27 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 11:06:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Sep 2018, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > That's way too good for these *&#$ing ST3000DM001 drives, and won't provide > anywhere near enough sense of satisfaction. Eric hasn't specified [and shouldn't have to] as to WHY, but here are some idle speculations: 1) Reduce the likelihood that they will end up on eBay as "Seller Refurbished" or "New, other". 1b) to put on eBay as "New, other" or "seller refurbished", WITH PICTURES, as a commentary on eBay condition descriptions. 2) Seagate might agree to refund the price on that batch, but only if they receive the old drives back. 3) The client won't pay for the software development that was done, but the client's lawyers are demanding their drives back. 4) retaliation in kind for the SS damage of drives of Steve Jackson Games 5) as a test suite for development of thermite (Does Amazon sell pre-made thermite?) 6) Maybe Eric just wants to vent some anger over problems he had with them. From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 13:16:29 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 12:16:29 -0600 Subject: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 12:06 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Eric hasn't specified [and shouldn't have to] as to WHY, > but here are some idle speculations: > Mostly #6, and a little bit of #5. I'd be delighted to offer "retaliation in kind for the SS damage of drives of Steve Jackson Games", but I don't think destroying my own drives provides that. > 5) as a test suite for development of thermite (Does Amazon sell pre-made > thermite?) > > 6) Maybe Eric just wants to vent some anger over problems he had with them On the other hand, 1) Reduce the likelihood that they will end up on eBay as "Seller > Refurbished" or "New, other". > 1b) to put on eBay as "New, other" or "seller refurbished", WITH PICTURES, > as a commentary on eBay condition descriptions. maybe after application of thermite I might sell them as "Seller Refurbished". Eric From chrise at pobox.com Fri Sep 21 13:16:46 2018 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 13:16:46 -0500 Subject: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20180921181645.GA6644@n0jcf.net> On Friday (09/21/2018 at 11:42AM -0600), Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 11:28 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Put it in a gift-wrapped box next to you on the bus. > > Whoever steals it will get just what they deserve. > > > > :-) > > But actually I wouldn't wish ST3000DM001 drives on my worst enemy! Ship them across town by FedEx, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCGBNj-aSwA -- Chris Elmquist From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 21 13:17:10 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 11:17:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives In-Reply-To: <3ed5fc83-5695-71a6-5834-b70af36e7906@e-bbes.com> References: <3ed5fc83-5695-71a6-5834-b70af36e7906@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: Do any of the rifle ranges near Vegas rent use of a Browning 50 caliber machine gun? (or artillery?) Maybe a VERY high powered laser cutter, to cut the letters N F G THROUGH the drives. Convince North Korea that there would be special symbolism to attaching one to the nosecone of each of their nuclear missiles. Or: Convince North Korea that those are what they need to improve the data processing of their nuclear program. If they were mailed anonymously and unlabelled to various TLAs, how much effort would be wasted in the attempts to read them? From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 21 13:36:25 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 11:36:25 -0700 Subject: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: <3ed5fc83-5695-71a6-5834-b70af36e7906@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: Anyone headed for Hawaii? It'd be interesting to see what some molten lava would do to one... --Chuck From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Sep 21 14:15:55 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 15:15:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives Message-ID: <20180921191555.0483C18C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Eric Smith > That's way too good for these *&#$ing ST3000DM001 drives, and won't > provide anywhere near enough sense of satisfaction. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gxm_qpKh7Jw 'Nuff said. Noel From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri Sep 21 14:16:28 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 12:16:28 -0700 Subject: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Sep 21, 2018, at 11:16 AM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > > On the other hand, > > 1) Reduce the likelihood that they will end up on eBay as "Seller >> Refurbished" or "New, other". >> 1b) to put on eBay as "New, other" or "seller refurbished", WITH PICTURES, >> as a commentary on eBay condition descriptions. > > > maybe after application of thermite I might sell them as "Seller > Refurbished". > > Eric At that point, sell them in an Art Gallery. Zane From allisonportable at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 14:31:49 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 15:31:49 -0400 Subject: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8d720a57-ac88-f77e-4e3c-03262f6b42fe@gmail.com> On 09/21/2018 12:19 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 6:04 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Or just throw it in the garbage. > > That's way too good for these *&#$ing ST3000DM001 drives, and won't provide > anywhere near enough sense of satisfaction. > Shooting them is best and percussive therapy can be good. However from a practical sense I take them out to the shop and drive a 8p nail or two through them? taking care to go through the media and the board. Makes short work. Allison From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Sep 21 14:38:57 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 15:38:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC H744 +5 supply Message-ID: <20180921193857.2048518C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So there's something about the H744 I'm not sure I understand; hopefully those with more analog-fu will set me straight if I'm confused. This supply runs off 20-30V AC. It takes the input AC, rectifies it, and runs it through a cap to filter out the ripple. What's next is that it's an early switching supply; i.e. the electronics inside switches that newly-created main DC off and on very quickly to keep the output voltage at around +5V. However... My understanding is that, without using a transformer (which creates an independent circuit loop - more below), there's no way to increase the _amperage_ out of circuit over what's fed into it: since amps are electrons/second, the electrons/second out more or less have to equal electrons/second in, since one can't easily 'create' electrons - at least, in normal electonic gear! (Transformers, by creating a whole new circuit loop, can 'create' more electrons/second in the new loop; since they tie the 'out' of the new circuit back to its 'in', they can recirculate the 'extra' electrons.) And to the extent that the output is at lower voltage, the energy differential has to be dumped; hence the huge heat sinks - a lot of the incoming power in that 30V AC has to be thrown away, in producing +5V. Right? My (possibly confused) understanding is that later switching supplies take the incoming 60Hz wall AC, transform it to a higher frequency, run _that_ through a transformer (which can be a lot smaller, since it's at a higher frequency, and the higher the frequency, the smaller the transformer you can use - hence the use of high frequency AC in airplanes, to allow use of smaller - and thus lighter - transformers). That then turns out a massive amount of amps in the output loop (since with a transformer, energy out is roughly energy in, modulo resistive losses; and with constant power, if V goes down, I goes up). So the losses are a lot lower - N amps at 110V in produce ~20N amps out at +5V. (Well, depending on all the losses, ~20.) And the whole works is a lot lighter, to boot. Did this programmer get all that analog stuff correctly? Thanks! Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Sep 21 15:03:11 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 16:03:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC H744 +5 supply Message-ID: <20180921200311.A5B6A18C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Oh, one thing I forgot to include: > a lot of the incoming power in that 30V AC has to be thrown away, in > producing +5V. So, if my understanding is correct, the 'switching' H744 really isn't much better than a classic linear supply. It still wastes a very large amount of the input power, and it still has a massively heavy transformer in it. Yes? So I wonder what exactly the advantage was in going to the switching approach? Yes, it keeps the output voltage steadier then a pure linear supply could - but I'll bet there are analog approaches that can do the same. (They'd need something that can produce a steady reference voltage, but the switching approach needs, and has, the same thing.) Maybe the main output transistors are happier being full-on or full-off, or something like that? Noel From mattislind at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 15:08:20 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 22:08:20 +0200 Subject: DEC H744 +5 supply In-Reply-To: <20180921200311.A5B6A18C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180921200311.A5B6A18C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: The H744 is a buck converter. You can read about buck converters here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_converter You have a good description there. Den fre 21 sep. 2018 kl 22:03 skrev Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org>: > Oh, one thing I forgot to include: > > > a lot of the incoming power in that 30V AC has to be thrown away, in > > producing +5V. > > So, if my understanding is correct, the 'switching' H744 really isn't much > better than a classic linear supply. It still wastes a very large amount of > the input power, and it still has a massively heavy transformer in it. Yes? > > So I wonder what exactly the advantage was in going to the switching > approach? > Yes, it keeps the output voltage steadier then a pure linear supply could - > but I'll bet there are analog approaches that can do the same. (They'd need > something that can produce a steady reference voltage, but the switching > approach needs, and has, the same thing.) Maybe the main output transistors > are happier being full-on or full-off, or something like that? > > Noel > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 21 15:18:10 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 13:18:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> 5) as a test suite for development of thermite (Does Amazon sell pre-made >> thermite?) On Fri, 21 Sep 2018, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > Mostly #6, and a little bit of #5. I'd be delighted to offer "retaliation > in kind for the SS damage of drives of Steve Jackson Games", but I don't > think destroying my own drives provides that. You hadn't previously explicitly mentioned that they were yours. Let us know how your homemade recipe does on the Kilo-Seagate measurement scale. From billr at giantstepsmts.com Fri Sep 21 14:30:54 2018 From: billr at giantstepsmts.com (billr at giantstepsmts.com) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 15:30:54 -0400 Subject: looking for out-of-print computer book Message-ID: <000401d451e1$9d955cd0$d8c01670$@giantstepsmts.com> Hi folks, I am trying to find an out-of-print tech book for a research project I'm doing. The book is called Porting Macintosh Applications to Windows 95 and NT by Greg Stone, dated December 1996, ISBN 0471118516, published by Wiley. It's listed on Amazon but not available; I've searched on usedbooksearch.net and even WorldCat, with no luck. Wondering if anyone has any ideas how I could find a copy? Figure someone on this list could point me in the right direction. Would love any help. Thanks, * Bill. Bill Rosenblatt GiantSteps Media Technology Strategies 157 Columbus Ave., Suite 409 New York, NY 10023 (212) 956-1045 Skype: billrosenblatt Twitter: @copyrightandtec Blog: https://copyrightandtechnology.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/billrosenblatt/ Forbes: https://www.forbes.com/sites/billrosenblatt/ From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Sep 21 15:23:51 2018 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 22:23:51 +0200 Subject: GE2149G206 Bit slice CPU?? Message-ID: <20180921202351.GC54680@beast.freibergnet.de> Hi all, I've got an VME Bus sized CPU or GPU Board out of ebay a while before, it is equipped with 4 pcs of AM29203 Slices and an AM2910A Sequencer. It sems to be a german Product. The Sticker on one of the DIN 96 Connectors states: GE2149G206 WNr. 10488 Grund- Baugruppe Does anyone know what it is or where is it coming from? Kind Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From bhilpert at shaw.ca Fri Sep 21 16:18:08 2018 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 14:18:08 -0700 Subject: DEC H744 +5 supply In-Reply-To: <20180921193857.2048518C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180921193857.2048518C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 2018-Sep-21, at 12:38 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > So there's something about the H744 I'm not sure I understand; hopefully those > with more analog-fu will set me straight if I'm confused. > > This supply runs off 20-30V AC. It takes the input AC, rectifies it, and runs > it through a cap to filter out the ripple. What's next is that it's an early > switching supply; i.e. the electronics inside switches that newly-created main > DC off and on very quickly to keep the output voltage at around +5V. > > However... > > My understanding is that, without using a transformer (which creates an > independent circuit loop - more below), there's no way to increase the > _amperage_ out of circuit over what's fed into it: since amps are > electrons/second, the electrons/second out more or less have to equal > electrons/second in, since one can't easily 'create' electrons - at least, in > normal electonic gear! (Transformers, by creating a whole new circuit loop, > can 'create' more electrons/second in the new loop; since they tie the 'out' > of the new circuit back to its 'in', they can recirculate the 'extra' > electrons.) > > And to the extent that the output is at lower voltage, the energy differential > has to be dumped; hence the huge heat sinks - a lot of the incoming power in > that 30V AC has to be thrown away, in producing +5V. Right? > > My (possibly confused) understanding is that later switching supplies take the > incoming 60Hz wall AC, transform it to a higher frequency, run _that_ through > a transformer (which can be a lot smaller, since it's at a higher frequency, > and the higher the frequency, the smaller the transformer you can use - hence > the use of high frequency AC in airplanes, to allow use of smaller - and thus > lighter - transformers). That then turns out a massive amount of amps in the > output loop (since with a transformer, energy out is roughly energy in, modulo > resistive losses; and with constant power, if V goes down, I goes up). > > So the losses are a lot lower - N amps at 110V in produce ~20N amps out at > +5V. (Well, depending on all the losses, ~20.) And the whole works is a lot > lighter, to boot. > > Did this programmer get all that analog stuff correctly? No. You don't need a transformer to increase the current ('electrons/S') in the output above that of the input. In typical "down-converters" there are additional current paths in the supply, paralleling the input path, that can provide the 'additional' electron flow rate. There are the parallel filter capacitors, and in the typical 'bucking converter' - which, while I'm not familiar with the H744 design*, I suspect it probably is - there will be what looks like a reverse-biased diode across the (switched) input which allows 'arbitrary' current levels to flow out of a series inductor which previously stored energy from the source, and deliver that current through the load. The energy differential from the voltage reduction is not being dumped as a power loss, it was converted by the supply to a different EI relationship between the input and output. The forgotten factor in your analysis is time: the whole rationale of a switching supply is to use time (varying switching periods) and temporary energy storage to change that EI relationship from input to output without energy loss. If the heatsinks seem huge compared to modern day supplies, that's more likely the result of technology improvements - faster devices, and moving from bipolar switching transistors to mosfets. Bipolar transistors have a near-fixed voltage drop which can't be reduced and thus present an increasing power loss as current goes up, while mosfets can be designed for lower 'insertion' losses. * If you supply a link & location to a schematic I'll take a look, I don't feel like wading around in bitsavers pdfs to try to find it right now. From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 16:20:09 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 15:20:09 -0600 Subject: DEC H744 +5 supply In-Reply-To: <20180921193857.2048518C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180921193857.2048518C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 1:38 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > My understanding is that, without using a transformer (which creates an > independent circuit loop - more below), there's no way to increase the > _amperage_ out of circuit over what's fed into it: since amps are > electrons/second, the electrons/second out more or less have to equal > electrons/second in, since one can't easily 'create' electrons - at least, > in > normal electonic gear! > No, a switching buck converter can definitely have more current out than in. In fact, that's common. The buck regulator on your PC board may supply 100A at around 1V to your CPU, but doesn't draw anywhere near that many amps from its 12V input. Although it works differently than a stepdown transformer, it does the same job, converting power at a higher voltage but lower current to a lower voltage at a higher current. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Sep 21 16:22:29 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 21:22:29 +0000 Subject: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: <3ed5fc83-5695-71a6-5834-b70af36e7906@e-bbes.com> , Message-ID: All the molten lava is done. You could still smash it with a lava rock. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Chuck Guzis via cctalk Sent: Friday, September 21, 2018 11:36:25 AM To: Fred Cisin via cctalk Subject: Re: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives Anyone headed for Hawaii? It'd be interesting to see what some molten lava would do to one... --Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 16:25:31 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 15:25:31 -0600 Subject: DEC H744 +5 supply In-Reply-To: References: <20180921193857.2048518C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > * If you supply a link & location to a schematic I'll take a look, I don't > feel like wading around in bitsavers pdfs to try to find it right now. page 207 of: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/1140/PDP-1140_System_Engr_Drawings_Rev_P_Jun74.pdf From jsw at ieee.org Fri Sep 21 16:49:30 2018 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 16:49:30 -0500 Subject: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0c826226-e8f4-db5e-9d84-b39360379de1@ieee.org> On 9/21/18 1:06 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 21 Sep 2018, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: >> That's way too good for these *&#$ing ST3000DM001 drives, and won't >> provide >> anywhere near enough sense of satisfaction. > > 5) as a test suite for development of thermite? (Does Amazon sell > pre-made thermite?) > Cadweld Thermite Bonding Kits are listed on Amazon. Personally, I would prefer to drop these drives into the Sun. . From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Sep 21 17:20:35 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 18:20:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC H744 +5 supply Message-ID: <20180921222035.29F0518C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mattis Lind > The H744 is a buck converter. You can read about buck converters here: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_converter Wow, that was incredibly hard to read; no clear and simple explanation of the basic concept of how it works, before getting into the details! If I understand it correctly, it stores part of the incoming energy of a block of current in the field around the inductor; later, switches change state to create a loop that includes the inductor, and it uses the stored energy to cause electrons to flow around the new (temporary, because of the switch) circuit. Is that about right? The H744 manual doesn't really talk much about that aspect of the circuit's operation (at least in terms of 'we use this trick to get all the energy out of the incoming current flow'); it just describes the stuff around the coil as "an LC filter". It says "This type circuit is basically only an averaging device", which I wouldn't say is really on point - that would describe my (incorrect) prior description as well as the correct one. And just to make it even more confusing, it says "most of the input voltage is absorbed across the emitter-collector of Q5", but I looked, and Q5 is tiny, and I eventually figured out that that only applies to the +15V needed to run the voltage regulator. Noel From steven at malikoff.com Fri Sep 21 17:54:56 2018 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 08:54:56 +1000 Subject: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives In-Reply-To: <20180921191555.0483C18C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180921191555.0483C18C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <0a62bf0acecf808fbb34de2c218111c4.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Noel said > > From: Eric Smith > > > That's way too good for these *&#$ing ST3000DM001 drives, and won't > > provide anywhere near enough sense of satisfaction. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gxm_qpKh7Jw > > 'Nuff said. I'd send one to the Red Hot Nickel Ball channel on Youtube. Steve. From bhilpert at shaw.ca Fri Sep 21 18:03:21 2018 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 16:03:21 -0700 Subject: DEC H744 +5 supply In-Reply-To: <20180921200311.A5B6A18C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180921200311.A5B6A18C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <272298E6-B441-4119-8CD9-BCBCE0D67494@shaw.ca> On 2018-Sep-21, at 1:03 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > Oh, one thing I forgot to include: > >> a lot of the incoming power in that 30V AC has to be thrown away, in >> producing +5V. > > So, if my understanding is correct, the 'switching' H744 really isn't much > better than a classic linear supply. It still wastes a very large amount of > the input power, and it still has a massively heavy transformer in it. Yes? No, it's much better than a linear supply. With the given 20-30VAC input (do I have that right?) - lets take a conservative 25VDC after rectification and filter - if input to a linear regulator producing 25A @ 5V, that's a loss of (25-5)V * 25A = 500W, to produce a usable 125W. That heatsink isn't sinking 500W and DEC wouldn't be producing a supply that inefficient. A glance at the schematic (as Eric provided the ref to) you might think it's just a linear regulator: AC input, rectification, cap filters, pass transistors, filter choke, with a 723 IC regulator controlling it, all the standard elements are there. But it's not: L1 is the bucking inductor - it's not just a filter choke. Diode D5 provides the current path for L1 to supply energy to the load when the source is switched off. The subtle thing about designs like this is where does the switching oscillation come from?, as there is no obvious oscillator present. I think what's going on is: - Q1/R4 are sensing current from the source via voltage drop across R4. - As that current goes up Q1 starts to conduct, eventually tripping SCR Q7 hard on. - This raises the voltage at E1.4, the error amp sense input. - This fools the regulator into thinking it's seeing way too high an output voltage so it hard shuts down the Q5-4-3-2 chain, disconnecting the source from L1 and the output, and shutting off the source current. E1.4 is now back to sensing the output voltage via the V-SENSE feedback. - With source current off, L1 now starts supplying energy to the load through D5, as it's magnetic field starts to collapse rather than build. As that energy peters out and the output voltage droops, E1.4 via the V-SENSE line now sees too low an output voltage and turns Q5-4-3-2 back on so the source can supply current, and energy into L1 and the load. - repeat. Hence oscillation. There is still a sizeable 60Hz transformer (step down to 20-30VAC) because the switching is taking place after the transformer rather than straight off the mains, this allows the switcher design to be simpler and get away with using much lower voltage semiconductors. The transformer is nonetheless much smaller than it would be in a straight linear regulator design because the secondary current it has to supply is several factors lower than for a comparable linear reg. > So I wonder what exactly the advantage was in going to the switching approach? Improved power efficiency. Improved material economics. > Yes, it keeps the output voltage steadier then a pure linear supply could - > but I'll bet there are analog approaches that can do the same. (They'd need > something that can produce a steady reference voltage, but the switching > approach needs, and has, the same thing.) In addition to reference stability, the basic error factor in a regulator is the loop gain of the error amplifier, and applies to both linear and switching regs. Neither produces a perfect output, it just reduces the the variation by some factor (the gain factor). If you think about it, if the output were perfectly stable how would the regulator know to provide correction? > Maybe the main output transistors > are happier being full-on or full-off, or something like that? Yes, that is one of the benefits of switching regulator over a linear regulator. It keeps the in-regulator losses to a minimum. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Sep 21 18:03:52 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 19:03:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC H744 +5 supply Message-ID: <20180921230352.BAAAF18C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Brent Hilpert > In typical "down-converters" there are additional current paths in the > supply, paralleling the input path, that can provide the 'additional' > electron flow rate. ... the whole rationale of a switching supply is to > use time (varying switching periods) and temporary energy storage to > change that EI relationship from input to output without energy loss. So, two more questions (if you have the time): I can see that there's a nice synergy between the switching concept and the buck converter (since the switch does exactly what the buck converter needs, in terms of turning the input current off and on), _but_ - are there switching supplies that operate the way I described (up-convert the frequency, then use a transformer to get directly to more or less the right voltage)? I.e. without needing to use a buck converter to do the conversion from low current at higher voltage to higher current at lower voltage? (Although I guess the coil for the buck might be cheaper than the transformer - even though the use of a high frequency would reduce the size of the latter - making the buck approach superior.) To put it another way, there's no _necessary_ connection between the switching concept, and the buck converter is there? Does that mean it is in theory possible to stick a buck converter on the output of a linear supply to do the V1I1-> V2I2 conversion? (Although I know it's probably a stupid design, because you'd still need some sort of switcher for the buck converter, so the linear supply would be basically pointless.) > If the heatsinks seem huge compared to modern day supplies, that's more > likely the result of technology improvements - faster devices, and > moving from bipolar switching transistors to mosfets. Bipolar > transistors have a near-fixed voltage drop which can't be reduced Right, I knew bipolars had the fixed drop, but I hadn't made the connection to that being the cause of the large amount of heat needing to be dumped. Useful enlightenment! > If you supply a link & location to a schematic I'll take a look Here: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/jpg/H744.tif http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/jpg/H744.jpg Thanks to everyone for taking the time and energy to reply! Noel From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Sep 21 18:05:10 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 23:05:10 +0000 Subject: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives In-Reply-To: <0c826226-e8f4-db5e-9d84-b39360379de1@ieee.org> References: , <0c826226-e8f4-db5e-9d84-b39360379de1@ieee.org> Message-ID: I'd think a nice blast with a oxy-acetylene torch should do what is needed. Even if it doesn't melt the disk, it will surely exceed the Currie point and all data is gone. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Jerry Weiss via cctalk Sent: Friday, September 21, 2018 2:49:30 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives On 9/21/18 1:06 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 21 Sep 2018, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: >> That's way too good for these *&#$ing ST3000DM001 drives, and won't >> provide >> anywhere near enough sense of satisfaction. > > 5) as a test suite for development of thermite (Does Amazon sell > pre-made thermite?) > Cadweld Thermite Bonding Kits are listed on Amazon. Personally, I would prefer to drop these drives into the Sun. . From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 18:06:58 2018 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 20:06:58 -0300 Subject: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives In-Reply-To: References: <0c826226-e8f4-db5e-9d84-b39360379de1@ieee.org> Message-ID: What about a nuclear bomb? 2018-09-21 20:05 GMT-03:00 dwight via cctalk : > I'd think a nice blast with a oxy-acetylene torch should do what is > needed. Even if it doesn't melt the disk, it will surely exceed the Currie > point and all data is gone. > > Dwight > > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Jerry Weiss via > cctalk > Sent: Friday, September 21, 2018 2:49:30 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 > disk drives > > On 9/21/18 1:06 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, 21 Sep 2018, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > >> That's way too good for these *&#$ing ST3000DM001 drives, and won't > >> provide > >> anywhere near enough sense of satisfaction. > > > > 5) as a test suite for development of thermite (Does Amazon sell > > pre-made thermite?) > > > Cadweld Thermite Bonding Kits are listed on Amazon. > > > > Personally, I would prefer to drop these drives into the Sun. > . > > > From bhilpert at shaw.ca Fri Sep 21 18:17:13 2018 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 16:17:13 -0700 Subject: DEC H744 +5 supply In-Reply-To: <20180921222035.29F0518C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180921222035.29F0518C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <1F4B9632-0AE6-4AEA-AC18-846A41FAD615@shaw.ca> On 2018-Sep-21, at 3:20 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> From: Mattis Lind > >> The H744 is a buck converter. You can read about buck converters here: >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_converter > > Wow, that was incredibly hard to read; no clear and simple explanation of the > basic concept of how it works, before getting into the details! > > If I understand it correctly, it stores part of the incoming energy of a block > of current in the field around the inductor; later, switches change state to > create a loop that includes the inductor, and it uses the stored energy to > cause electrons to flow around the new (temporary, because of the switch) > circuit. Is that about right? Yes, that's a basic part of the operation. > The H744 manual doesn't really talk much about that aspect of the circuit's > operation (at least in terms of 'we use this trick to get all the energy out > of the incoming current flow'); it just describes the stuff around the coil as > "an LC filter". It says "This type circuit is basically only an averaging > device", which I wouldn't say is really on point - that would describe my > (incorrect) prior description as well as the correct one. > > And just to make it even more confusing, it says "most of the input voltage is > absorbed across the emitter-collector of Q5", but I looked, and Q5 is tiny, > and I eventually figured out that that only applies to the +15V needed to run > the voltage regulator. Q5 is functioning as a common-base stage in the driver chain (base tied to fixed +15V). It is not part of the +15V supply to the 723, that is provided by R2, zener D2, C2. Q5 'voltage isolates' the 723 from the higher voltages around Q4-3-2 while nonetheless providing a control signal path from the 723 to the drivers. From bhilpert at shaw.ca Fri Sep 21 19:07:13 2018 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 17:07:13 -0700 Subject: DEC H744 +5 supply In-Reply-To: <20180921230352.BAAAF18C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180921230352.BAAAF18C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <3C02F068-857D-47FE-BC91-F9C252C99C70@shaw.ca> On 2018-Sep-21, at 4:03 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> From: Brent Hilpert > >> If the heatsinks seem huge compared to modern day supplies, that's more >> likely the result of technology improvements - faster devices, and >> moving from bipolar switching transistors to mosfets. Bipolar >> transistors have a near-fixed voltage drop which can't be reduced > > Right, I knew bipolars had the fixed drop, but I hadn't made the connection > to that being the cause of the large amount of heat needing to be dumped. > Useful enlightenment! To clarify, bipolars have a fixed MINIMUM drop, which can be used in a switching supply to as much advantage as possible with bipolars, but have a varying drop in a linear regulator (that's where the 'linear' comes from) which results in the large losses and inefficiency of linear regs. From bhilpert at shaw.ca Fri Sep 21 18:56:30 2018 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 16:56:30 -0700 Subject: DEC H744 +5 supply In-Reply-To: <20180921230352.BAAAF18C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180921230352.BAAAF18C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <64F668A2-89AC-476C-89F4-0D92C28E44D5@shaw.ca> On 2018-Sep-21, at 4:03 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> From: Brent Hilpert > >> In typical "down-converters" there are additional current paths in the >> supply, paralleling the input path, that can provide the 'additional' >> electron flow rate. ... the whole rationale of a switching supply is to >> use time (varying switching periods) and temporary energy storage to >> change that EI relationship from input to output without energy loss. > > So, two more questions (if you have the time): > > I can see that there's a nice synergy between the switching concept and the > buck converter (since the switch does exactly what the buck converter needs, > in terms of turning the input current off and on), _but_ - are there switching > supplies that operate the way I described (up-convert the frequency, then use > a transformer to get directly to more or less the right voltage)? I.e. without > needing to use a buck converter to do the conversion from low current at > higher voltage to higher current at lower voltage? (Although I guess the coil > for the buck might be cheaper than the transformer - even though the use of a > high frequency would reduce the size of the latter - making the buck approach > superior.) > > To put it another way, there's no _necessary_ connection between the switching > concept, and the buck converter is there? Does that mean it is in theory > possible to stick a buck converter on the output of a linear supply to do the > V1I1-> V2I2 conversion? (Although I know it's probably a stupid design, because > you'd still need some sort of switcher for the buck converter, so the linear > supply would be basically pointless.) There are a thousand configurations for power supplies possible depending on what needs to be accomplished: circuit isolation (e.g. mains from load), EI conversion up or down, degree of regulation, economy tradeoffs, etc. An example that perhaps fits what you're thinking of is the old motor-generator setups which convert 60Hz to 400Hz, the 400Hz then being used as input to a variety of supplies. It's useful to keep in mind that regulation and EI conversion are different objectives but they can be achieved either separately or in concert. What we commonly refer to as a "linear power supply" does EI conversion (and circuit isolation) in one stage (the transformer), followed by an independent regulator stage. Your common modern generic switching supply integrates EI conversion, regulation and circuit isolation into one feedback loop across one transformer (switching at high frequency). A buck converter is inherently a switching converter, the buck operation requires the switching to function. There is a corresponding boost converter with a different circuit topology around the inductor, for . . boosting voltage. There are also boost-buck converters. Dropping 5V to 3.3V or 1.xV for ICs is often accomplished with little on-board buck converters which you may not have realised were there, to avoid the losses and heat of a linear regulator. > >> If the heatsinks seem huge compared to modern day supplies, that's more >> likely the result of technology improvements - faster devices, and >> moving from bipolar switching transistors to mosfets. Bipolar >> transistors have a near-fixed voltage drop which can't be reduced > > Right, I knew bipolars had the fixed drop, but I hadn't made the connection > to that being the cause of the large amount of heat needing to be dumped. > Useful enlightenment! > > >> If you supply a link & location to a schematic I'll take a look > > Here: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/jpg/H744.tif > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/jpg/H744.jpg > > Thanks to everyone for taking the time and energy to reply! > > Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Sep 21 20:39:54 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 21:39:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives Message-ID: <20180922013954.6E36818C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Alexandre Souza > What about a nuclear bomb? OK, if we're going to start being _really_ silly..... drop them into a singularity! :-) The best part is that you'll get to watch them being ripped apart and destroyed by tidal forces _forever_ (since time dilation means that as they go over the event horizon, their local time seems to stop compared to ours). Noel From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Sep 21 21:44:05 2018 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 19:44:05 -0700 Subject: Fall cleaning - 9-track drives available Message-ID: <46ae13c1-a988-7b74-9709-d298ada49316@sbcglobal.net> I have four 9-track tape drives, and a dirty DEC rack, that I need to get rid of. Two of the drives are HP 7970B's. One has the door unattached. Then there's a Kennedy 9100 800/1600 bpi drive. Very heavy.? As found, none tested by me. Just don't have time to play with them. Last is a CDC drive complete with an AST clone PC with an Overland Data controller and software. This was running a few years ago but has not been used since. Has Media Master format conversion software also. There's also a smallish DEC rack. Could use the top painted but otherwise not too bad. Includes four sets of rack slides. All are located in Santa Cruz, CA and need to be gone soon, I need the room in my hangar. Come get them! Photos here: http://dvq.com/fall_cleaning/ -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 22:17:18 2018 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 22:17:18 -0500 Subject: VCFMW In-Reply-To: References: <007b01d44f73$c1486ed0$43d94c70$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: VCFMW13 Talks & Presentations videos are up! Here's a YouTube playlist with all of them for this year: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLE-Iywr9LQERoM2Iy6EeO9ln5SdFnmnsW From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Sep 22 08:43:52 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 13:43:52 +0000 Subject: Fall cleaning - 9-track drives available In-Reply-To: <46ae13c1-a988-7b74-9709-d298ada49316@sbcglobal.net> References: <46ae13c1-a988-7b74-9709-d298ada49316@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: I could use a small rack but I think Santa Cruz, CA is a bit too far for a road trip from NEPA.? :-)?? (I really regret giving all my racks but one away!!) bill On 09/21/2018 10:44 PM, Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk wrote: > I have four 9-track tape drives, and a dirty DEC rack, that I need to > get rid of. > > Two of the drives are HP 7970B's. One has the door unattached. Then > there's a Kennedy 9100 800/1600 bpi drive. > Very heavy.? As found, none tested by me. Just don't have time to play > with them. > > Last is a CDC drive complete with an AST clone PC with an Overland > Data controller and software. This > was running a few years ago but has not been used since. Has Media > Master format conversion software also. > > There's also a smallish DEC rack. Could use the top painted but > otherwise not too bad. Includes four sets of rack > slides. > > All are located in Santa Cruz, CA and need to be gone soon, I need the > room in my hangar. Come get them! > > Photos here: http://dvq.com/fall_cleaning/ > From guykd at optusnet.com.au Sat Sep 22 09:08:54 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 00:08:54 +1000 Subject: Fall cleaning - 9-track drives available In-Reply-To: References: <46ae13c1-a988-7b74-9709-d298ada49316@sbcglobal.net> <46ae13c1-a988-7b74-9709-d298ada49316@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20180923000854.0101b810@mail.optusnet.com.au> Too far? Road trip? I'm crying here (Sydney Australia.) I have a couple of HP 7970B's (and the sevice manual) though not yet running. But I have no 1600 bpi drives. Oh well... Guy At 01:43 PM 22/09/2018 +0000, you wrote: >I could use a small rack but I think Santa Cruz, CA is a bit too far for >a road trip from NEPA.?? :-)???? (I really regret giving all my racks but one away!!) > > >bill > > >On 09/21/2018 10:44 PM, Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk wrote: >> I have four 9-track tape drives, and a dirty DEC rack, that I need to >> get rid of. >> >> Two of the drives are HP 7970B's. One has the door unattached. Then >> there's a Kennedy 9100 800/1600 bpi drive. >> Very heavy.?? As found, none tested by me. Just don't have time to play >> with them. >> >> Last is a CDC drive complete with an AST clone PC with an Overland >> Data controller and software. This >> was running a few years ago but has not been used since. Has Media >> Master format conversion software also. >> >> There's also a smallish DEC rack. Could use the top painted but >> otherwise not too bad. Includes four sets of rack >> slides. >> >> All are located in Santa Cruz, CA and need to be gone soon, I need the >> room in my hangar. Come get them! >> >> Photos here: http://dvq.com/fall_cleaning/ >> > > From guykd at optusnet.com.au Sat Sep 22 09:34:30 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 00:34:30 +1000 Subject: Manual for Documation TM200 punched card reader In-Reply-To: <008501d451b5$50d6c590$f28450b0$@emailtoilet.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20180923003430.0101b810@mail.optusnet.com.au> By coincidence, today I started evaluation of a punched/optical card reader. Model TM200, made by Documation Inc. Naturally I have zero information on it so far. Does anyone know where I'd find a service manual or schematics? Pics here: http://everist.org/pics/TM200/ It will get a writeup at http://everist.org/NobLog/ if it seems to be a feasible restoration. The immediately obvious problems: * Mains input connector is one of those old round locking type. Not sure if I have any of these. * Hose from vacuum pump to pickup heel is hardened. Needs replacement. * Plastic elbow fitting for vacuum to pickup heel is broken in half. Make new one. * Plastic mount for status display lights is cracking around brass nut inserts. * Four rubber transport rollers have de-vulcanised, melted, and flowed gunk. Urrgh, what a mess. * Ouch, that interface connector. I wonder where I'm going to find some card stacks for testing it? If I get that far. Guy At 07:13 AM 21/09/2018 -0700, you wrote: >Mr. Hollerith's house is available. > >https://www.wsj.com/articles/forgotten-tech-pioneers-d-c-estate-asks-almost- >19-million-1537456578?emailToken=bb675bfcb9f6274f6e8c1b05ae28f2344xumjbywJXs >AwzIJYvBg3RJlRIZHZMV6ZNib7ahvK98qrcXxNgBADqPZCBCTTSWKSViH7isyQ4Ra78fLGOUMQtm >bpNzGJ7UynZ+6QLN+6DJX7vdRFal288hJJHrIqDHw From kylevowen at gmail.com Sat Sep 22 09:52:11 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 09:52:11 -0500 Subject: Manual for Documation TM200 punched card reader In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20180923003430.0101b810@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <008501d451b5$50d6c590$f28450b0$@emailtoilet.com> <3.0.6.32.20180923003430.0101b810@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 22, 2018 at 9:39 AM Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > By coincidence, today I started evaluation of a punched/optical card > reader. > Model TM200, made by Documation Inc. > > Naturally I have zero information on it so far. > Does anyone know where I'd find a service manual or schematics? > Did you check Bitsavers already? http://bitsavers.org/pdf/documation/ Thanks, Kyle From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Sep 22 10:18:37 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 08:18:37 -0700 Subject: Manual for Documation TM200 punched card reader In-Reply-To: References: <008501d451b5$50d6c590$f28450b0$@emailtoilet.com> <3.0.6.32.20180923003430.0101b810@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: I'm pretty sure I just saw a paper copy of the TM200 manual which is different from the M200. I'll have to dig around to try to find it again. On 9/22/18 7:52 AM, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Sep 22, 2018 at 9:39 AM Guy Dunphy via cctalk > wrote: > >> By coincidence, today I started evaluation of a punched/optical card >> reader. >> Model TM200, made by Documation Inc. >> >> Naturally I have zero information on it so far. >> Does anyone know where I'd find a service manual or schematics? >> > > Did you check Bitsavers already? > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/documation/ > > Thanks, > > Kyle > From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Sep 22 10:27:06 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 08:27:06 -0700 Subject: solaris toolchains Message-ID: <073162f9-a7de-00f0-ad44-a886429095a6@bitsavers.org> this info isn't jumping out at me what was the last bootstrapped toolchain (gcc et al) that works on Solaris 2.6? http://jupiterrise.com/tgcware/sunos5.6_sparc/stable/ ?? From cctalk at snarc.net Fri Sep 21 16:35:51 2018 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2018 17:35:51 -0400 Subject: looking for out-of-print computer book In-Reply-To: <000401d451e1$9d955cd0$d8c01670$@giantstepsmts.com> References: <000401d451e1$9d955cd0$d8c01670$@giantstepsmts.com> Message-ID: > I am trying to find an out-of-print tech book for a research project I'm > doing. The book is called Porting Macintosh Applications to Windows 95 and > NT by Greg Stone, dated December 1996, ISBN 0471118516, published by Wiley. > > It's listed on Amazon but not available; I've searched on > usedbooksearch.net and even WorldCat, with no > luck. Wondering if anyone has any ideas how I could find a copy? > > Figure someone on this list could point me in the right direction. Would > love any help. My go-to site is http://used.addall.net but it's not there either. Sorry From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sat Sep 22 12:08:33 2018 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 10:08:33 -0700 Subject: Fall cleaning - 9-track drives available In-Reply-To: <46ae13c1-a988-7b74-9709-d298ada49316@sbcglobal.net> References: <46ae13c1-a988-7b74-9709-d298ada49316@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <18a38e33-e553-b270-9cdc-d65d55538f1c@sbcglobal.net> On 9/21/2018 7:44 PM, Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk wrote: > I have four 9-track tape drives, and a dirty DEC rack, that I need to > get rid of. > > Two of the drives are HP 7970B's. One has the door unattached. Then > there's a Kennedy 9100 800/1600 bpi drive. > Very heavy.? As found, none tested by me. Just don't have time to play > with them. > > Last is a CDC drive complete with an AST clone PC with an Overland > Data controller and software. This > was running a few years ago but has not been used since. Has Media > Master format conversion software also. > > There's also a smallish DEC rack. Could use the top painted but > otherwise not too bad. Includes four sets of rack > slides. > > All are located in Santa Cruz, CA and need to be gone soon, I need the > room in my hangar. Come get them! > > Photos here: http://dvq.com/fall_cleaning/ > The HP drives have been claimed. Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From sales at elecplus.com Sat Sep 22 12:42:27 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 12:42:27 -0500 Subject: looking for out-of-print computer book In-Reply-To: <000401d451e1$9d955cd0$d8c01670$@giantstepsmts.com> References: <000401d451e1$9d955cd0$d8c01670$@giantstepsmts.com> Message-ID: <00a401d4529b$a127b6d0$e3772470$@com> https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1215288 Perhaps u can download it here? Cindy -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of billr--- via cctalk Sent: Friday, September 21, 2018 2:31 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: looking for out-of-print computer book Hi folks, I am trying to find an out-of-print tech book for a research project I'm doing. The book is called Porting Macintosh Applications to Windows 95 and NT by Greg Stone, dated December 1996, ISBN 0471118516, published by Wiley. It's listed on Amazon but not available; I've searched on usedbooksearch.net and even WorldCat, with no luck. Wondering if anyone has any ideas how I could find a copy? Figure someone on this list could point me in the right direction. Would love any help. Thanks, * Bill. Bill Rosenblatt GiantSteps Media Technology Strategies 157 Columbus Ave., Suite 409 New York, NY 10023 (212) 956-1045 Skype: billrosenblatt Twitter: @copyrightandtec Blog: https://copyrightandtechnology.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/billrosenblatt/ Forbes: https://www.forbes.com/sites/billrosenblatt/ --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Sep 22 13:42:07 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 11:42:07 -0700 Subject: looking for out-of-print computer book In-Reply-To: <00a401d4529b$a127b6d0$e3772470$@com> References: <000401d451e1$9d955cd0$d8c01670$@giantstepsmts.com> <00a401d4529b$a127b6d0$e3772470$@com> Message-ID: > I am trying to find an out-of-print tech book for a research project I'm > doing. The book is called Porting Macintosh Applications to Windows 95 and > NT by Greg Stone, dated December 1996, ISBN 0471118516, published by Wiley. > I wonder if the book was announced and never released. It's pretty rare when something that new doesn't show up anywhere. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Sep 22 13:54:09 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 14:54:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC H744 +5 supply Message-ID: <20180922185409.1264318C076@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Brent Hilpert > With the given 20-30VAC input (do I have that right?) Yup. > A glance at the schematic ... you might think it's just a linear > regulator And the writeup in the maint manual gives that impression too, which didn't help! (Hence my assumtion that it was acting in the way a plain linear regulator might, in terms energy efficiency.) > Diode D5 provides the current path for L1 to supply energy to the load > when the source is switched off. Right. What is the role of the pair of big caps, C8/C9. Is that just to filter ripple, or do they play a role in the provision of current when the supply is switched off (by Q2)? (My guess would be only the former, since unlike the energy stored in L1, which can be used provide electrons when Q2 is off, capacitors only store electrons, so they can't play much of a role in the conversion of V1I1 to V2I2, which requires 'creation' of more electrons when I2>I1. Oh, reading the maint manual, when Q2 is on, they store some of the current coming through L1. So I guess they have a peripheral role in the overall operation.) > The subtle thing about designs like this is where does the switching > oscillation come from?, as there is no obvious oscillator present. The maint manual does cover that. It more or less says that as the output voltage rises through 5.05V, the voltage regulator turns off Q2, and as it falls through 4.95, it turns it back on. (Presumably when the whole works is first turned on, the output voltage is less than 4.95V, so Q2 stays on until it gets to the turn-off voltage.) Q7 is part of the over-current sensing, it says. > the switching is taking place after the transformer rather than > straight off the mains, this allows the switcher design to be simpler > and get away with using much lower voltage semiconductors. Ah, I was wondering about why they did it that way. > The transformer is nonetheless much smaller than it would be in a > straight linear regulator design because the secondary current it has > to supply is several factors lower than for a comparable linear reg. That's because of the higher efficiency of this circuit, as opposed to a straight linear regulator, which would need more mains power in to produce an equivalent power out? > Q5 is functioning as a common-base stage in the driver chain ... > It is not part of the +15V supply to the 723, that is provided by > R2, zener D2, C2. I was confused by the maint manual, which says "D2 is used with Q5 and R2 to provide +15V to E1". > There are a thousand configurations for power supplies possible > depending on what needs to be accomplished ... It's useful to keep in > mind that regulation and EI conversion are different objectives but > they can be achieved either separately or in concert. Got it. > bipolars have a fixed MINIMUM drop, which can be used in a switching > supply to as much advantage as possible with bipolars, but have a > varying drop in a linear regulator Right. OK, I think I've got a decent grip on all this now - although I still wouldn't want to try and _repair_ one... :-) Noel From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Sep 22 13:55:21 2018 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 11:55:21 -0700 Subject: Fall cleaning - 9-track drives available In-Reply-To: <46ae13c1-a988-7b74-9709-d298ada49316@sbcglobal.net> References: <46ae13c1-a988-7b74-9709-d298ada49316@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: I'm sure relieved that you didn't say "DEC TU77 drive" and "near Riverside, CA", because I lack spare cash, empty floor space, and impulse control! :) -- Mark J. Blair http://www.nf6x.net/ From echristopherson at gmail.com Sat Sep 22 14:11:00 2018 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 14:11:00 -0500 Subject: Fall cleaning - 9-track drives available In-Reply-To: <46ae13c1-a988-7b74-9709-d298ada49316@sbcglobal.net> References: <46ae13c1-a988-7b74-9709-d298ada49316@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 9:44 PM Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I have four 9-track tape drives, and a dirty DEC rack, that I need to > get rid of. > > Two of the drives are HP 7970B's. One has the door unattached. Then > there's a Kennedy 9100 800/1600 bpi drive. > Very heavy. As found, none tested by me. Just don't have time to play > with them. > > Last is a CDC drive complete with an AST clone PC with an Overland Data > controller and software. This > was running a few years ago but has not been used since. Has Media > Master format conversion software also. > > There's also a smallish DEC rack. Could use the top painted but > otherwise not too bad. Includes four sets of rack > slides. > > All are located in Santa Cruz, CA and need to be gone soon, I need the > room in my hangar. Come get them! > > Photos here: http://dvq.com/fall_cleaning/ > > -- > Vintage computers and electronics > www.dvq.com > www.tekmuseum.com > www.decmuseum.org > > I see you posted an additional rack picture today, a closeup of the label. It looks like it says H9CAB-BA, but I can't find anything online about that (AA and AB, yes). What do you know about it? -- Eric Christopherson From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Sep 22 15:20:47 2018 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 13:20:47 -0700 Subject: Fall cleaning - 9-track drives available In-Reply-To: <46ae13c1-a988-7b74-9709-d298ada49316@sbcglobal.net> References: <46ae13c1-a988-7b74-9709-d298ada49316@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <0C3C0CBE-8EF8-467E-839C-16C6B59F1A1C@nf6x.net> > On Sep 21, 2018, at 7:44 PM, Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk wrote: > > > All are located in Santa Cruz, CA and need to be gone soon, I need the room in my hangar. Come get them! > > Photos here: http://dvq.com/fall_cleaning/ If I'm not mistaken, that CDC drive uses the same mechanism as my DEC TU81. My workshop is the exact same style of steel arch building as your hangar, but mine is a lot more full of junk than your hangar is! :D -- Mark J. Blair http://www.nf6x.net/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Sep 22 15:28:01 2018 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 13:28:01 -0700 Subject: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives In-Reply-To: <20180922013954.6E36818C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180922013954.6E36818C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5605C885-24A6-4D49-96B3-25C083838FD3@nf6x.net> How about removing the (presumably aluminum) platters, case castings, and any other aluminum parts, grinding it all down to fine aluminum flakes, making thermite out of that, then using it to slag the rest of the non-aluminum parts? Then shoot the slag pile with a .50 BMG. Then drop that into lava. Then scoop out the contaminated lava and drop it into a singularity. Becase overkill is best kind of kill. Did I miss any steps? Oh, yeah: Play country music the whole time, to make it all more painful for the drives. -- Mark J. Blair http://www.nf6x.net/ From shumaker at att.net Sat Sep 22 15:35:21 2018 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 13:35:21 -0700 Subject: Fall cleaning - 9-track drives available In-Reply-To: <46ae13c1-a988-7b74-9709-d298ada49316@sbcglobal.net> References: <46ae13c1-a988-7b74-9709-d298ada49316@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Ok.. I'll bite...?? Is the CDC/clone system spoken for yet? Steve Shumaker On 9/21/2018 7:44 PM, Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk wrote: > I have four 9-track tape drives, and a dirty DEC rack, that I need to > get rid of. > > Two of the drives are HP 7970B's. One has the door unattached. Then > there's a Kennedy 9100 800/1600 bpi drive. > Very heavy.? As found, none tested by me. Just don't have time to play > with them. > > Last is a CDC drive complete with an AST clone PC with an Overland > Data controller and software. This > was running a few years ago but has not been used since. Has Media > Master format conversion software also. > > There's also a smallish DEC rack. Could use the top painted but > otherwise not too bad. Includes four sets of rack > slides. > > All are located in Santa Cruz, CA and need to be gone soon, I need the > room in my hangar. Come get them! > > Photos here: http://dvq.com/fall_cleaning/ > From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sat Sep 22 16:21:30 2018 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 14:21:30 -0700 Subject: Fall cleaning - 9-track drives available In-Reply-To: References: <46ae13c1-a988-7b74-9709-d298ada49316@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <2ce8242b-7de5-c6c2-6189-c06a92fd3f24@sbcglobal.net> No, it's still available, come get it! Bob On 9/22/2018 1:35 PM, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: > Ok.. I'll bite...?? Is the CDC/clone system spoken for yet? > > > Steve Shumaker > > > On 9/21/2018 7:44 PM, Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk wrote: >> I have four 9-track tape drives, and a dirty DEC rack, that I need to >> get rid of. >> >> Two of the drives are HP 7970B's. One has the door unattached. Then >> there's a Kennedy 9100 800/1600 bpi drive. >> Very heavy.? As found, none tested by me. Just don't have time to >> play with them. >> >> Last is a CDC drive complete with an AST clone PC with an Overland >> Data controller and software. This >> was running a few years ago but has not been used since. Has Media >> Master format conversion software also. >> >> There's also a smallish DEC rack. Could use the top painted but >> otherwise not too bad. Includes four sets of rack >> slides. >> >> All are located in Santa Cruz, CA and need to be gone soon, I need >> the room in my hangar. Come get them! >> >> Photos here: http://dvq.com/fall_cleaning/ >> > > -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Sep 22 16:43:45 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 18:43:45 -0300 Subject: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives In-Reply-To: <5605C885-24A6-4D49-96B3-25C083838FD3@nf6x.net> References: <20180922013954.6E36818C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5605C885-24A6-4D49-96B3-25C083838FD3@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On 2018-09-22 5:28 p.m., Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > > How about removing the (presumably aluminum) platters How about drawing a discreet close to this ****** offtopic thread. From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Sat Sep 22 16:44:40 2018 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 16:44:40 -0500 Subject: SMD disk needed Message-ID: Does anyone within driving distance of central Illinois have a SMD drive I can borrow for awhile until I can get some kind of SMD emulator working? Anything 450 MB or bigger will do. I need one for the Lambda. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Sep 22 16:53:59 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 14:53:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives In-Reply-To: <5605C885-24A6-4D49-96B3-25C083838FD3@nf6x.net> References: <20180922013954.6E36818C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5605C885-24A6-4D49-96B3-25C083838FD3@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Sep 2018, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: J> How about removing the (presumably aluminum) platters, case castings, and any other aluminum parts, grinding it all down to fine aluminum flakes, > making thermite out of that, then using it to slag the rest of the > non-aluminum parts? > Then shoot the slag pile with a .50 BMG. > Then drop that into lava. > Then scoop out the contaminated lava and drop it into a singularity. OR carfully pack that into the original Seagate package, gift-wrap it, and let it get stolen. > Becase overkill is best kind of kill. > Did I miss any steps? > Oh, yeah: Play country music the whole time, to make it all more painful for the drives. We might have to draw a line at some point. Although country music would make a good soundtrack for the YouTube video "How to refurbish an ST3000DM001" Need some SEO to make that the first hit on every search for Seagate. Q: Is that the worst drive you've ever encountered? From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Sep 22 17:22:27 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 15:22:27 -0700 Subject: SMD disk needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51f9192f-6d64-ab71-a76e-ec66935b3c43@bitsavers.org> couple of problems.. The bit transfer rate went up as time went on, so the 8" >300mb drives have higher bit rates They also changed the tags to be able to handle more cylinders I think you're going to need to find an 11" Fujitsu Eagle or maybe a Super Eagle On 9/22/18 2:44 PM, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone within driving distance of central Illinois have a SMD drive I can borrow for awhile until I can get some kind of SMD emulator working? Anything 450 MB or bigger will do. I need one for the Lambda. > From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Sat Sep 22 17:33:24 2018 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 17:33:24 -0500 Subject: SMD disk needed In-Reply-To: <51f9192f-6d64-ab71-a76e-ec66935b3c43@bitsavers.org> References: <51f9192f-6d64-ab71-a76e-ec66935b3c43@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: The controller is an Interphase 2181 and it should take any disk that works with that. LMI supported Eagles and smaller CDC drives at first, but later you could define drives of arbitrary geometry in setup and later directly in the ROM. I know that Super Eagles work at least at the software level because I?ve simulated one. > On Sep 22, 2018, at 5:22 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > couple of problems.. > > The bit transfer rate went up as time went on, so the 8" >300mb drives have higher bit rates > They also changed the tags to be able to handle more cylinders > > I think you're going to need to find an 11" Fujitsu Eagle or maybe a Super Eagle From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Sat Sep 22 19:26:27 2018 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 17:26:27 -0700 Subject: Barnett Instruments AN/URM-105C Multimeter Message-ID: I spotted a vintage multimeter in an antique shop in Startup WA for $24. Didn't have a chance to test it, but it looks in good condition under the cover. https://photos.app.goo.gl/sTQF8g7jXx2TMKqCA If someone wants it, I would be happy to acquire and ship it at cost. -- Charles From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Sep 22 19:49:43 2018 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 19:49:43 -0500 Subject: Barnett Instruments AN/URM-105C Multimeter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Fyi, there are a couple on eBay for around $30 ea. shipped. They only do AC & DC volts plus ohms, but that's better than nothing after the EMP. On Sat, Sep 22, 2018, 7:26 PM Charles Anthony via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I spotted a vintage multimeter in an antique shop in Startup WA for $24. > Didn't have a chance to test it, but it looks in good condition under the > cover. > > https://photos.app.goo.gl/sTQF8g7jXx2TMKqCA > > If someone wants it, I would be happy to acquire and ship it at cost. > > -- Charles > From guykd at optusnet.com.au Sat Sep 22 19:47:17 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 10:47:17 +1000 Subject: Manual for Documation TM200 punched card reader In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20180923003430.0101b810@mail.optusnet.com.au> <008501d451b5$50d6c590$f28450b0$@emailtoilet.com> <3.0.6.32.20180923003430.0101b810@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20180923104717.00dce558@mail.optusnet.com.au> Thanks for the link. So far I'd only tried google, assuming anything relevant on bitsavers would show up. It didn't, which is interesting. My search was only very brief though. I'd been doing an initial eval on the reader in the evening, then read the post about Mr Hollerith's house. So hadn't yet done any serious searching. The unit was made in April 1977. Someone else mentions the TM200 is not the same as the M200, so I have some reading to do. Regards, Guy At 09:52 AM 22/09/2018 -0500, you wrote: >On Sat, Sep 22, 2018 at 9:39 AM Guy Dunphy via cctalk >wrote: > >> By coincidence, today I started evaluation of a punched/optical card >> reader. >> Model TM200, made by Documation Inc. >> >> Naturally I have zero information on it so far. >> Does anyone know where I'd find a service manual or schematics? >> > >Did you check Bitsavers already? > >http://bitsavers.org/pdf/documation/ > >Thanks, > >Kyle > From guykd at optusnet.com.au Sat Sep 22 19:53:33 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 10:53:33 +1000 Subject: Manual for Documation TM200 punched card reader In-Reply-To: References: <008501d451b5$50d6c590$f28450b0$@emailtoilet.com> <3.0.6.32.20180923003430.0101b810@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20180923105333.00dce558@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 08:18 AM 22/09/2018 -0700, you wrote: >I'm pretty sure I just saw a paper copy of the TM200 manual >which is different from the M200. I'll have to dig around to >try to find it again. If you can, that would be great. The unit is Model: TM 200, SN: 7704196. It was made in April 1977. Bitsavers only seems to have M200 docs. I'm in Australia, happy to pay for the manual and postage. Also I can scan it and upload to bitsavers. Regards, Guy >On 9/22/18 7:52 AM, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: >> On Sat, Sep 22, 2018 at 9:39 AM Guy Dunphy via cctalk >> wrote: >> >>> By coincidence, today I started evaluation of a punched/optical card >>> reader. >>> Model TM200, made by Documation Inc. >>> >>> Naturally I have zero information on it so far. >>> Does anyone know where I'd find a service manual or schematics? >>> >> >> Did you check Bitsavers already? >> >> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/documation/ >> >> Thanks, >> >> Kyle >> > > From cym224 at gmail.com Sat Sep 22 20:16:56 2018 From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 21:16:56 -0400 Subject: looking for out-of-print computer book In-Reply-To: References: <000401d451e1$9d955cd0$d8c01670$@giantstepsmts.com> <00a401d4529b$a127b6d0$e3772470$@com> Message-ID: On 22/09/2018, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> I am trying to find an out-of-print tech book for a research project I'm >> doing. The book is called Porting Macintosh Applications to Windows 95 >> and NT by Greg Stone, dated December 1996, ISBN 0471118516, published by >> Wiley. >> > > I wonder if the book was announced and never released. > It's pretty rare when something that new doesn't show up anywhere. > Very likely as the LC has no such entry (and they receive all titles published in the US). N. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Sep 22 20:32:51 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 18:32:51 -0700 Subject: ISO Moto Exorciser and EXORterm docs In-Reply-To: References: <7f2753b0-2d29-7b34-00db-d7fa3737f88b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <793334f0-d915-dc84-1689-14271cf3496b@bitsavers.org> On 9/4/18 9:24 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 6:43 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk > wrote: > It would be nice to find more/better docs, esp docs on the EXORterm 150 or 155. The terminal has a keytronics kb .ca > 1978, of course all the > foam was crumbled. > > > > I have a copy of the "EXORterm 155 Display Console User's Guide" M68SXD155(D2), dated September 1981.? It appears to > include schematics.? I can add this to my pile of Things To Scan.? Gave away the terminal it came with a long time ago > (had been basically destroyed by mice...) > > - Josh > > Josh sent it to me to scan. The manual is up now under http://bitsavers.org/components/motorola/6800/EXORterm_155/ From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sat Sep 22 21:18:45 2018 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 22:18:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Manual for Documation TM200 punched card reader In-Reply-To: <007b01d44f73$c1486ed0$43d94c70$@classiccmp.org> References: <007b01d44f73$c1486ed0$43d94c70$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 22, 2018 Guy Dunphy wrote: > Thanks for the link. So far I'd only tried google, assuming anything > relevant on bitsavers would show up. It didn't, which is interesting. My > search was only very brief though. I'd been doing an initial eval on the > reader in the evening, then read the post about Mr Hollerith's house. So > hadn't yet done any serious searching. > > The unit was made in April 1977. Someone else mentions the TM200 is not the > same as the M200, so I have some reading to do. From outward appearences, it looks to be the same as the Wang 2244A, and the Wang Model 2200 Systems Mainteance Manual confirms that it is a TM200: http://www.wang2200.org/docs/system/2200_SystemsMaintenanceManual(redone).03-0025-0.1975.pdf A reference manual and data sheet are available on the Wang 2200 site: http://www.wang2200.org/docs/peripheral/2234A_2244A_CardReaderRefManual.700-3330C.11-80.pdf https://www.wang2200.org/docs/datasheet/2244A_CardReader_DataSheet.700-3524B.1-79.pdf No schematics, though. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Sep 22 22:53:28 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 23:53:28 -0400 Subject: Manual for Documation TM200 punched card reader In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20180923003430.0101b810@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <008501d451b5$50d6c590$f28450b0$@emailtoilet.com> <3.0.6.32.20180923003430.0101b810@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 22, 2018 at 10:34 AM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > By coincidence, today I started evaluation of a punched/optical card reader. > Model TM200, made by Documation Inc. > > Pics here: http://everist.org/pics/TM200/ > > The immediately obvious problems: > * Mains input connector is one of those old round locking type. Not sure if I have any of these. I have an M200 and I just had to look up in the docs (on bitsavers) that my unit requires a Hubbel 7484 for the power cable. Yours is different but it's likely to be some sort of Hubbel product. > * Hose from vacuum pump to pickup heel is hardened. Needs replacement. > * Plastic elbow fitting for vacuum to pickup heel is broken in half. Make new one. > * Plastic mount for status display lights is cracking around brass nut inserts. > * Four rubber transport rollers have de-vulcanised, melted, and flowed gunk. Urrgh, what a mess. Hmm... I probably need to look into mine for similar things. > * Ouch, that interface connector. Fortunately, my M200 came with a factory add-on board that's an RS-232 interface to the upstream host. > I wonder where I'm going to find some card stacks for testing it? If I get that far. An old co-worker buddy of mine gave me a box of his punchcards when he was in school in 1970. He's really on me to read them. I don't want to put his in first and have roller goo or something else ruin them so I have a bit of exploration to do. I'll be interested to hear how your saga unfolds because I'm expecting all of that and more on mine. -ethan From imp at bsdimp.com Sat Sep 22 23:07:12 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 22:07:12 -0600 Subject: Manual for Documation TM200 punched card reader In-Reply-To: References: <008501d451b5$50d6c590$f28450b0$@emailtoilet.com> <3.0.6.32.20180923003430.0101b810@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 22, 2018, 9:53 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Sep 22, 2018 at 10:34 AM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk > wrote: > > By coincidence, today I started evaluation of a punched/optical card > reader. > > Model TM200, made by Documation Inc. > > > > Pics here: http://everist.org/pics/TM200/ > > > > The immediately obvious problems: > > * Mains input connector is one of those old round locking type. Not sure > if I have any of these. > > I have an M200 and I just had to look up in the docs (on bitsavers) > that my unit requires a Hubbel > 7484 for the power cable. Yours is different but it's likely to be > some sort of Hubbel product. > > > > * Hose from vacuum pump to pickup heel is hardened. Needs replacement. > > * Plastic elbow fitting for vacuum to pickup heel is broken in half. > Make new one. > > * Plastic mount for status display lights is cracking around brass nut > inserts. > > * Four rubber transport rollers have de-vulcanised, melted, and flowed > gunk. Urrgh, what a mess. > > Hmm... I probably need to look into mine for similar things. > > > * Ouch, that interface connector. > > Fortunately, my M200 came with a factory add-on board that's an RS-232 > interface to the upstream host. > > > I wonder where I'm going to find some card stacks for testing it? If I > get that far. > > An old co-worker buddy of mine gave me a box of his punchcards when he > was in school in 1970. He's really on me to read them. I don't want > to put his in first and have roller goo or something else ruin them so > I have a bit of exploration to do. > How many cards are in the deck? If it's not a lot, you can carefully number the cards in pencil, then run them through a document scanner... though the OCR process might be a challenge. Warner I'll be interested to hear how your saga unfolds because I'm expecting > all of that and more on mine. > > -ethan > From steven at malikoff.com Sun Sep 23 00:40:15 2018 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 15:40:15 +1000 Subject: Advice requested on proper disposal of Seagate ST3000DM001 disk drives In-Reply-To: <5605C885-24A6-4D49-96B3-25C083838FD3@nf6x.net> References: <20180922013954.6E36818C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5605C885-24A6-4D49-96B3-25C083838FD3@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <3d919c25218d19fd30303d928337ba32.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Mark said > How about removing the (presumably aluminum) platters, case castings, and any other aluminum parts, grinding it all down to fine aluminum flakes, making thermite out of that, then using it to slag the rest of the non-aluminum parts? > > Then shoot the slag pile with a .50 BMG. > > Then drop that into lava. > > Then scoop out the contaminated lava and drop it into a singularity. > > Becase overkill is best kind of kill. > > Did I miss any steps? You forgot to degauss the platters first. From guykd at optusnet.com.au Sun Sep 23 04:33:10 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 19:33:10 +1000 Subject: Manual for Documation TM200 punched card reader In-Reply-To: References: <007b01d44f73$c1486ed0$43d94c70$@classiccmp.org> <007b01d44f73$c1486ed0$43d94c70$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20180923193310.00dea598@mail.optusnet.com.au> Hi Mike, At 10:18 PM 22/09/2018 -0400, you wrote: > From outward appearences, it looks to be the same as the Wang 2244A, and >the Wang Model 2200 Systems Mainteance Manual confirms that it is a TM200: > >http://www.wang2200.org/docs/system/2200_SystemsMaintenanceManual(redone).03-0025-0.1975.pdf What an excellent list this is. Who else would have spotted that? > A reference manual and data sheet are available on the Wang 2200 site: > >http://www.wang2200.org/docs/peripheral/2234A_2244A_CardReaderRefManual.700-3330C.11-80.pdf >https://www.wang2200.org/docs/datasheet/2244A_CardReader_DataSheet.700-3524B.1-79.pdf Lots of interesting information on card coding and usage, thanks. Heh. Every single time I hear the name Wang, I'm reminded of the legendary time Wang showed up at an Australian computer trade show, with their staff all wearing badges that said "WANG CARES" You have to say it with an Aussie accent and know the local idiom to understand why it's side-splittingly funny. > > No schematics, though. There's the rub. Fingers crossed Al Kossow can find that original copy. Regards, Guy From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Sep 23 08:11:03 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 14:11:03 +0100 Subject: Looking for a TURBOchannel Extender Cable Message-ID: <004e01d4533e$e28d3610$a7a7a230$@ntlworld.com> I have finally fixed the PSU of my TURBOchannel Extender (https://robs-old-computers.com/2018/09/23/h7826-power-supply-repaired/). Which means that now I would like to connect it to my DECstation 5000/240. I need the relevant extender cable, which I believe to be a BC12N or a 17-03335-01. I asked on this list about a year ago if anyone has such a cable and thought I would try asking again. I have found a 100-pin SCSI cable that mechanically fits, but I don't know if that has the correct pin assignments. I am aware of a site in the UK which lists this cable (http://refurb.icc4it.co.uk/parts/legacy/dec/17-03335-01) but it looks like one of those sites that speculatively lists things without necessarily stocking them, and it is likely to charge business prices anyway. So, two questions: 1. Could the 100-pin SCSI cable do the job? 2. Anyone have a genuine cable going spare (ideally in the UK). Regards Rob From carlojpisani at gmail.com Sun Sep 23 09:49:36 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 16:49:36 +0200 Subject: HP CPU32 Emulation Adapter In-Reply-To: References: <9dfcfee3-44e0-2da4-0eb5-3d3fad0d8cde@illinois.edu> Message-ID: hi what have you used as ICE? or, have you only used a software debugger? and why not the motorola monitor? I see you have developed your own monitor why? p.s. I have opened this website(1), it offers space for a sort of mini-Bazar, but there is also space for junks of files. I am collecting and sharing utilities, documentation, and stuff for CPUs, MPUs, etc (1) http://www.downthebunker.xyz/ Il giorno ven 21 set 2018 alle ore 12:04 Carlo Pisani ha scritto: > > > But, I've got one of these: > > https://hackaday.io/project/6150-beckman-du600-reverse-engineering > > hi > where did you find it? > here I have an EVS board, by motorola :P From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sun Sep 23 12:54:53 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 19:54:53 +0200 (CEST) Subject: SPACEWAR! Switch Boxes for a PDP-12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Sep 2018, Michael Thompson wrote: > We modified the source > > from D.E. WREGE > > to use the LINC SXL instruction to read the PDP-12 GPIO signals, and > prototyped two switch boxes using recycled toggle switches. This works > great, so now we need to make better switch boxes. [...] We did something similar for our LAB-8/E, but much simpler. We just hooked up two ordinary game joysticks (digital ones like for the C64 or Amiga) to the parallel input interface and modified the code to also read that input :-) Christian From ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org Sun Sep 23 12:59:34 2018 From: ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org (Andrew Luke Nesbit) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 18:59:34 +0100 Subject: looking for out-of-print computer book In-Reply-To: References: <000401d451e1$9d955cd0$d8c01670$@giantstepsmts.com> <00a401d4529b$a127b6d0$e3772470$@com> Message-ID: On 23/09/2018 02:16, Nemo via cctalk wrote: > On 22/09/2018, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> I wonder if the book was announced and never released. >> It's pretty rare when something that new doesn't show up anywhere. >> > > Very likely as the LC has no such entry (and they receive all titles > published in the US). I encountered a similar situation a few months ago, regarding a technical book. I was unable to find the latest edition. I wrote to the primary author and explained my confusion. I received the following clarification. The publisher had announced the new edition of the book. The primary author was keen to do seek help from a co-author who had come on board to help with specialized parts. Some time after work began, the primary author expressed concerns about the quality of the updates and the publisher cancelled or put the new edition on hold (I can't remember which). Nevertheless, confusing entries about this non-existent updated edition remain in various catalogs. Andrew -- OpenPGP key: EB28 0338 28B7 19DA DAB0 B193 D21D 996E 883B E5B9 From shumaker at att.net Sun Sep 23 15:03:10 2018 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 13:03:10 -0700 Subject: Fall cleaning - 9-track drives available In-Reply-To: <2ce8242b-7de5-c6c2-6189-c06a92fd3f24@sbcglobal.net> References: <46ae13c1-a988-7b74-9709-d298ada49316@sbcglobal.net> <2ce8242b-7de5-c6c2-6189-c06a92fd3f24@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <3520004d-5ffb-2b3c-444b-badf78250444@att.net> If you can hold it until the 6th, I can pick it up either Sat or Sun. Steve dOn 9/22/2018 2:21 PM, Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk wrote: > No, it's still available, come get it! > > Bob > > On 9/22/2018 1:35 PM, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: >> Ok.. I'll bite...?? Is the CDC/clone system spoken for yet? >> >> >> Steve Shumaker >> >> >> On 9/21/2018 7:44 PM, Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk wrote: >>> I have four 9-track tape drives, and a dirty DEC rack, that I need >>> to get rid of. >>> >>> Two of the drives are HP 7970B's. One has the door unattached. Then >>> there's a Kennedy 9100 800/1600 bpi drive. >>> Very heavy.? As found, none tested by me. Just don't have time to >>> play with them. >>> >>> Last is a CDC drive complete with an AST clone PC with an Overland >>> Data controller and software. This >>> was running a few years ago but has not been used since. Has Media >>> Master format conversion software also. >>> >>> There's also a smallish DEC rack. Could use the top painted but >>> otherwise not too bad. Includes four sets of rack >>> slides. >>> >>> All are located in Santa Cruz, CA and need to be gone soon, I need >>> the room in my hangar. Come get them! >>> >>> Photos here: http://dvq.com/fall_cleaning/ >>> >> >> > From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sun Sep 23 15:45:05 2018 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 13:45:05 -0700 Subject: DEC H744 +5 supply In-Reply-To: <20180922185409.1264318C076@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180922185409.1264318C076@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 2018-Sep-22, at 11:54 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> From: Brent Hilpert > >> A glance at the schematic ... you might think it's just a linear >> regulator > > And the writeup in the maint manual gives that impression too, which didn't > help! (Hence my assumtion that it was acting in the way a plain linear > regulator might, in terms energy efficiency.) > >> Diode D5 provides the current path for L1 to supply energy to the load >> when the source is switched off. > > Right. What is the role of the pair of big caps, C8/C9. Is that just to > filter ripple, or do they play a role in the provision of current when the > supply is switched off (by Q2)? > > (My guess would be only the former, since unlike the energy stored in L1, > which can be used provide electrons when Q2 is off, capacitors only store > electrons, so they can't play much of a role in the conversion of V1I1 to > V2I2, which requires 'creation' of more electrons when I2>I1. Oh, reading the > maint manual, when Q2 is on, they store some of the current coming through > L1. So I guess they have a peripheral role in the overall operation.) Your conceptualisation around the role of electrons is perhaps a little off. Displacement of electrons is the generation of potential (voltage), current is a RATE of electron flow. You don't need 'more' electrons to generate a higher current, you just need to 'expend them' more quickly - using words like 'more' and 'expend' loosely, as it's not about moving a quantity of electrons from source to load, or creating or consuming them. Energy transfer is not equivalent to electron flow, or, electron flow does not correspond to (or theoretically even imply) energy transfer. Filtering ripple and supplying current are not mutually exclusive functions. Capacitors very much play a role in supplying current to the load. Both the L & C play a role as energy reservoirs. You can charge two identical capacitors with identical charges (number of electrons displaced); discharging one of them into a load in 1mS will generate some peak current, discharging the other in 10mS will generate a much smaller peak current, with the same energy expended in both cases. >> The subtle thing about designs like this is where does the switching >> oscillation come from?, as there is no obvious oscillator present. > > The maint manual does cover that. It more or less says that as the output > voltage rises through 5.05V, the voltage regulator turns off Q2, and as > it falls through 4.95, it turns it back on. (Presumably when the whole > works is first turned on, the output voltage is less than 4.95V, so Q2 > stays on until it gets to the turn-off voltage.) OK, my analysis of the operation may have been partly off then, I didn't think they'd be trying to look at just slight voltage variation of the regulated output to generate the switching/oscillation so thought it might be done via input current and Q7 providing a sharper switch. Not clear to me whether the whole is working as an on-off switcher relying on high enough gain in the 723/driver chain to make it a comparator or whether it is more like a phase-delay oscillator with the amp/semis operating in the linear region. > Q7 is part of the over-current sensing, it says. > > >> the switching is taking place after the transformer rather than >> straight off the mains, this allows the switcher design to be simpler >> and get away with using much lower voltage semiconductors. > > Ah, I was wondering about why they did it that way. > >> The transformer is nonetheless much smaller than it would be in a >> straight linear regulator design because the secondary current it has >> to supply is several factors lower than for a comparable linear reg. > > That's because of the higher efficiency of this circuit, as opposed to a > straight linear regulator, which would need more mains power in to produce an > equivalent power out? The higher efficiency means less power expended in toto, so that's a partial influence, but primarily it's because it's still a higher voltage by several multiples than the eventual target output voltage and thus the current that the transformer secondary has to deal with is the same factor lower to deliver the same output power, meaning less copper for the secondary and less iron for the core. The EI conversion in this supply is taking place in two stages, firstly in the transformer step-down from mains to 20-30VAC, then further in the subsequent switcher(s). >> Q5 is functioning as a common-base stage in the driver chain ... >> It is not part of the +15V supply to the 723, that is provided by >> R2, zener D2, C2. > > I was confused by the maint manual, which says "D2 is used with Q5 and R2 > to provide +15V to E1". I don't know why they would phrase it that way but I haven't seen/read this TofOp. E1.12 is the 723 supply pin (being supplied with +15V from D2), E1.11 is the control signal out. >> There are a thousand configurations for power supplies possible >> depending on what needs to be accomplished ... It's useful to keep in >> mind that regulation and EI conversion are different objectives but >> they can be achieved either separately or in concert. > > Got it. > >> bipolars have a fixed MINIMUM drop, which can be used in a switching >> supply to as much advantage as possible with bipolars, but have a >> varying drop in a linear regulator > > Right. > > > OK, I think I've got a decent grip on all this now - although I still > wouldn't want to try and _repair_ one... :-) From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sun Sep 23 15:47:53 2018 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 13:47:53 -0700 Subject: SPACEWAR! Switch Boxes for a PDP-12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2018-Sep-23, at 7:46 AM, Michael Thompson via cctech wrote: > Visitors to the RICM like to play SPACEWAR! in the PDP-12. Unfortunately > using the console switches is uncomfortable, not intuitive, and is tough on > the switches. We would like to recreate the switch boxes used on the PDP-1 > to make playing a better experience. > > We modified the source > > from D.E. WREGE > > to use the LINC SXL instruction to read the PDP-12 GPIO signals, and > prototyped two switch boxes using recycled toggle switches. This works > great, so now we need to make better switch boxes. > > This CHM article shows what we want to recreate. > > This article shows a sketch of the switch boxes. > > A generous donor made these boxes for us. > > > The lever switches are turning our to be difficult to find at a reasonable > price. We found some NOS SwitchCraft lever switches that looked like the > sketch and the PDP-1 pictures and were a reasonable price, but our order > was rejected because they only had one in stock. eBay has Mossman and > SwitchCraft, but they are either very expensive (more than $50 each), or > they only have one available. > > The switches that we are looking for need to be SPDT, three-position, > non-locking, center off. (If the switches have more than one pole we can > remove the extra poles to keep the operational force low.) Before we cave > in and buy some modern C&K toggle switches, does anyone have a source for > Mossman or SwitchCraft switches at a reasonable price? I have some options that might be suitable but you haven't provided much detail about what's ideal or limits you're willing to entertain in style of switch. Are you trying to be period-correct? . . there are a wide variety of lever switches available. There are leaf-contact switches that mount with two screws and a slot for the lever, leaf-contact with a throated actuator that mount in a 1/2 inch hole (much easier to mount than making a narrow slot), wafer switches with the two-screw/slot mount, etc. Slot-styles may have the lever plane made from stamped/sheet metal with a slide on knob vs. made from thick ~3/16-1/8 inch metal with a thread-on knob. The latter were very robust and the type typically found in telephone switchboards, although there were also some cheaper japanese makes. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Sep 23 15:55:09 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 13:55:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: looking for out-of-print computer book In-Reply-To: References: <000401d451e1$9d955cd0$d8c01670$@giantstepsmts.com> <00a401d4529b$a127b6d0$e3772470$@com> Message-ID: >> I wonder if the book was announced and never released. >> It's pretty rare when something that new doesn't show up anywhere. > Very likely as the LC has no such entry (and they receive all titles > published in the US). The computer industry is not the sole inventor of "vaporware". From mtapley at swri.edu Sun Sep 23 19:59:34 2018 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 00:59:34 +0000 Subject: DEC H744 +5 supply In-Reply-To: <20180921230352.BAAAF18C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180921230352.BAAAF18C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <8A9F87E7-A40A-4DD5-8F6B-A58D51B0E65C@swri.edu> On Sep 21, 2018, at 6:03 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > (Although I guess the coil > for the buck might be cheaper than the transformer - even though the use of a > high frequency would reduce the size of the latter - making the buck approach > superior.) > > To put it another way, there's no _necessary_ connection between the switching > concept, and the buck converter is there? Does that mean it is in theory > possible to stick a buck converter on the output of a linear supply to do the > V1I1-> V2I2 conversion? (Although I know it's probably a stupid design, because > you'd still need some sort of switcher for the buck converter, so the linear > supply would be basically pointless.) Noel, here?s one way to think about buck converters. The coil (inductor) serves as a way of giving the flow of electrons ?inertia?. It?s not really inertia, it?s energy built up in the magnetic field of the inductor, but it acts like inertia. You want the electrons to have (say) 3.3 V of energy per electron - that translates into an equivalent ?speed? of the electrons. So if the power supply can put out a train of electrons moving at that speed (plus or minus a little), the load will be happy. But, the available (battery, or whatever) energy source drops electrons out at (say) 5V. The buck converter lets the 5V shove the ?train? of electrons forward for a while, until it?s a little above the 3.3V ?speed? at the load, then stops the 5V shove and lets the train run on ?inertia? (stored energy in the inductor) for a while - the voltage will be dropping at the load, but only slowly. When it drops low enough, the converter opens the switch to the 5V and starts speeding up the train again. The bigger the inductor, the more ?inertia? the current flow has, and the longer the train takes to speed up and slow down, and the slower the switching rate can be for a give above and below voltage tolerance at the load. The inductor serves both to slow the rate at which the train speeds up (fighting against the 5V source and storing energy into its field) and to slow the rate at which the train slows down (powering the load out of the stored energy). This is a slightly dangerous analogy in some ways - electrons do *not* have any useful inertia in circuits, for example. I think Brent or any of the regulars can probably point out other conceptual problems, as well. But, hopefully it?ll help in thinking about what a buck supply is trying to do. - Mark From rick at rickmurphy.net Sun Sep 23 20:28:46 2018 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 21:28:46 -0400 Subject: Floating point math in FORTRAN IV on PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/19/2018 6:43 PM, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > At VCF MW this past weekend, I was playing around with an FPP8/A stuffed > into a PDP-8/M with a fan removed. This hex-wide two-board set will happily > work in a quad-wide backplane, as it needs no signals that an 8/A would > otherwise provide. > > I wanted to benchmark the FPP8/A with the software emulation that FORTRAN > IV supposedly does. Mind you, I also don't have an EAE in mine, so software > emulation for integer multiplication/division would also be used. > > I tried running a simple program to print some natural logs and square > roots, which ran quite well with the FPP8/A in place. > > Without the FPP8/A...all of the results were wrong. Significantly. Negative > numbers in many cases. No clear pattern as to what it's doing. That seems like you have a mixed-up F4 compiler/runtime. On my system (SIMH) I get the same results, FPP enabled or disabled. Don't know how to enable/disable EAE on SIMH, unfortunately. What you're getting means that the compiler, runtime, and libraries are not from the same release. ??? -Rick From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sun Sep 23 20:47:03 2018 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 18:47:03 -0700 Subject: Fall cleaning - 9-track drives available In-Reply-To: <3520004d-5ffb-2b3c-444b-badf78250444@att.net> References: <46ae13c1-a988-7b74-9709-d298ada49316@sbcglobal.net> <2ce8242b-7de5-c6c2-6189-c06a92fd3f24@sbcglobal.net> <3520004d-5ffb-2b3c-444b-badf78250444@att.net> Message-ID: <7b6e957e-63b8-3c9b-3659-9fc72ea561f5@sbcglobal.net> I can hold it but I will probably not be around on the weekends for the next few weeks or so. Bob On 9/23/2018 1:03 PM, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: > If you can hold it until the 6th, I can pick it up either Sat or Sun. > > Steve > > > dOn 9/22/2018 2:21 PM, Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk wrote: >> No, it's still available, come get it! >> >> Bob >> >> On 9/22/2018 1:35 PM, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: >>> Ok.. I'll bite...?? Is the CDC/clone system spoken for yet? >>> >>> >>> Steve Shumaker >>> >>> >>> On 9/21/2018 7:44 PM, Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk wrote: >>>> I have four 9-track tape drives, and a dirty DEC rack, that I need >>>> to get rid of. >>>> >>>> Two of the drives are HP 7970B's. One has the door unattached. Then >>>> there's a Kennedy 9100 800/1600 bpi drive. >>>> Very heavy.? As found, none tested by me. Just don't have time to >>>> play with them. >>>> >>>> Last is a CDC drive complete with an AST clone PC with an Overland >>>> Data controller and software. This >>>> was running a few years ago but has not been used since. Has Media >>>> Master format conversion software also. >>>> >>>> There's also a smallish DEC rack. Could use the top painted but >>>> otherwise not too bad. Includes four sets of rack >>>> slides. >>>> >>>> All are located in Santa Cruz, CA and need to be gone soon, I need >>>> the room in my hangar. Come get them! >>>> >>>> Photos here: http://dvq.com/fall_cleaning/ >>>> >>> >>> >> > > -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From kylevowen at gmail.com Sun Sep 23 20:59:12 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 20:59:12 -0500 Subject: Floating point math in FORTRAN IV on PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 23, 2018 at 8:28 PM Rick Murphy via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > That seems like you have a mixed-up F4 compiler/runtime. > On my system (SIMH) I get the same results, FPP enabled or disabled. > Don't know how to enable/disable EAE on SIMH, unfortunately. > > What you're getting means that the compiler, runtime, and libraries are > not from the same release. > -Rick > Hmm...I was using the exact same RK05 image in both SIMH and the real machine. I've been informed that "set cpu noeae" will disable the EAE. Just tried it with that...and there's the problem. No FPP or EAE seems like a bad combination for running FORTRAN IV code that does any bit of math operations. >From SIMH (with EAE and FPP disabled): .R F4 *FLOAT/G$ 1.000002 1.000002 0.000000 2.000002 1.000031 0.693147 3.000002 1.224747 1.098614 4.000002 2.000002 1.386296 5.000002 5.798176 1.609439 6.000002 4.015202 1.791761 7.000002 3.522211 1.837092 8.000001 2.000061 -1.920560 9.000002 2.121345 -1.802777 10.000008 2.236078 -1.697417 11.000007 2.345213 -2.130667 12.000012 2.449492 -1.515095 13.000011 2.549511 -1.141335 14.000010 3.331171 -1.469765 15.000009 3.338015 -1.037061 16.000008 4.000002 2.772591 17.000007 4.123107 2.833214 18.000012 4.242642 2.890373 19.000011 4.358900 2.967808 20.000010 11.596357 2.995733 21.000009 10.150188 3.122650 22.000008 9.188697 2.562484 23.000013 8.516458 2.604795 24.000012 8.030402 3.178056 25.000011 7.671024 3.206363 26.000010 7.401572 3.551816 27.000010 7.198119 3.612231 28.000015 7.044420 3.223386 29.000014 6.929063 1.967658 30.000013 6.843800 3.656090 31.000012 6.782515 3.713244 32.000011 4.000121 3.465738 [snip] Maybe someday I'll delve into why it doesn't play nicely with such math without EAE and FPP. So, in summary, either EAE or FPP (or both) works fine. Without at least one, don't count on any floating point math to be right (based on my limited assessment). Surely this must've been known about 40+ years ago...right? Kyle From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Sep 23 09:46:48 2018 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 10:46:48 -0400 Subject: SPACEWAR! Switch Boxes for a PDP-12 Message-ID: Visitors to the RICM like to play SPACEWAR! in the PDP-12. Unfortunately using the console switches is uncomfortable, not intuitive, and is tough on the switches. We would like to recreate the switch boxes used on the PDP-1 to make playing a better experience. We modified the source from D.E. WREGE to use the LINC SXL instruction to read the PDP-12 GPIO signals, and prototyped two switch boxes using recycled toggle switches. This works great, so now we need to make better switch boxes. This CHM article shows what we want to recreate. This article shows a sketch of the switch boxes. A generous donor made these boxes for us. The lever switches are turning our to be difficult to find at a reasonable price. We found some NOS SwitchCraft lever switches that looked like the sketch and the PDP-1 pictures and were a reasonable price, but our order was rejected because they only had one in stock. eBay has Mossman and SwitchCraft, but they are either very expensive (more than $50 each), or they only have one available. The switches that we are looking for need to be SPDT, three-position, non-locking, center off. (If the switches have more than one pole we can remove the extra poles to keep the operational force low.) Before we cave in and buy some modern C&K toggle switches, does anyone have a source for Mossman or SwitchCraft switches at a reasonable price? -- Michael Thompson From anders at abc80.net Sun Sep 23 12:51:15 2018 From: anders at abc80.net (Anders Sandahl) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 19:51:15 +0200 Subject: SPACEWAR! Switch Boxes for a PDP-12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 10:46:48 -0400 > From: Michael Thompson > To: cctech > Subject: SPACEWAR! Switch Boxes for a PDP-12 > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Visitors to the RICM like to play SPACEWAR! in the PDP-12. Unfortunately > using the console switches is uncomfortable, not intuitive, and is tough > on > the switches. We would like to recreate the switch boxes used on the PDP-1 > to make playing a better experience. > > We modified the source > > from D.E. WREGE > > to use the LINC SXL instruction to read the PDP-12 GPIO signals, and > prototyped two switch boxes using recycled toggle switches. This works > great, so now we need to make better switch boxes. > > This CHM article shows what we want to recreate. > > This article shows a sketch of the switch boxes. > > A generous donor made these boxes for us. > > > The lever switches are turning our to be difficult to find at a reasonable > price. We found some NOS SwitchCraft lever switches that looked like the > sketch and the PDP-1 pictures and were a reasonable price, but our order > was rejected because they only had one in stock. eBay has Mossman and > SwitchCraft, but they are either very expensive (more than $50 each), or > they only have one available. > > The switches that we are looking for need to be SPDT, three-position, > non-locking, center off. (If the switches have more than one pole we can > remove the extra poles to keep the operational force low.) Before we cave > in and buy some modern C&K toggle switches, does anyone have a source for > Mossman or SwitchCraft switches at a reasonable price? > > -- > Michael Thompson Michel, I did just what you did for being able to play Spacewar! on my PDP-8a (I have KK8E with EAE, VC8E and the DK8E real time clock). But since the frontpanel doesn't have proper switches for the switch register I had to build game hand controls. I built them just like those that can be spotted in the video from CHM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EWQYAfuMYw but smaller. I just used ordinary arcade style buttons and connected them to the digital inputs on the DKC8A board and modified the source code for that. Those hand controls have two switches for rotate left/right, one for fire and one for acceleration. The last one is for hyper speed but that is triggered by pressing left/right switches at the same time. I intended to fix this so it should be triggered by the last button but never came to it. Unfortunately I haven't written on my page https://www.pdp-9.net/pdp-8a on this yet... /Anders From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sun Sep 23 12:02:24 2018 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 10:02:24 -0700 Subject: SPACEWAR! Switch Boxes for a PDP-12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00aa9f03-2cae-77cb-cf86-810ac7057e29@sbcglobal.net> On 9/23/2018 7:46 AM, Michael Thompson via cctech wrote: > Visitors to the RICM like to play SPACEWAR! in the PDP-12. Unfortunately > using the console switches is uncomfortable, not intuitive, and is tough on > the switches. We would like to recreate the switch boxes used on the PDP-1 > to make playing a better experience. > > We modified the source > > from D.E. WREGE > > to use the LINC SXL instruction to read the PDP-12 GPIO signals, and > prototyped two switch boxes using recycled toggle switches. This works > great, so now we need to make better switch boxes. > > This CHM article shows what we want to recreate. > > This article shows a sketch of the switch boxes. > > A generous donor made these boxes for us. > > > The lever switches are turning our to be difficult to find at a reasonable > price. We found some NOS SwitchCraft lever switches that looked like the > sketch and the PDP-1 pictures and were a reasonable price, but our order > was rejected because they only had one in stock. eBay has Mossman and > SwitchCraft, but they are either very expensive (more than $50 each), or > they only have one available. > > The switches that we are looking for need to be SPDT, three-position, > non-locking, center off. (If the switches have more than one pole we can > remove the extra poles to keep the operational force low.) Before we cave > in and buy some modern C&K toggle switches, does anyone have a source for > Mossman or SwitchCraft switches at a reasonable price? > How about these? They look close, but are still a bit expensive. https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-SWITCHCRAFT-60312DL-MOMENTARY-SWITCH/253586118419?epid=27018592158&hash=item3b0ae91713:g:NvcAAOSwqMRa4hGS:sc:USPSFirstClass!95051!US!-1 Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Sep 23 12:53:20 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 10:53:20 -0700 Subject: SPACEWAR! Switch Boxes for a PDP-12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/23/18 7:46 AM, Michael Thompson via cctech wrote: > Before we cave > in and buy some modern C&K toggle switches ugh use black arcade pushbuttons that is what the PDP-1 at CHM has been using for over 10 years From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sun Sep 23 12:58:19 2018 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 10:58:19 -0700 Subject: SPACEWAR! Switch Boxes for a PDP-12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4865E879-9647-41AD-9C98-FF44353FD3E4@shaw.ca> On 2018-Sep-23, at 7:46 AM, Michael Thompson via cctech wrote: > Visitors to the RICM like to play SPACEWAR! in the PDP-12. Unfortunately > using the console switches is uncomfortable, not intuitive, and is tough on > the switches. We would like to recreate the switch boxes used on the PDP-1 > to make playing a better experience. > > We modified the source > > from D.E. WREGE > > to use the LINC SXL instruction to read the PDP-12 GPIO signals, and > prototyped two switch boxes using recycled toggle switches. This works > great, so now we need to make better switch boxes. > > This CHM article shows what we want to recreate. > > This article shows a sketch of the switch boxes. > > A generous donor made these boxes for us. > > > The lever switches are turning our to be difficult to find at a reasonable > price. We found some NOS SwitchCraft lever switches that looked like the > sketch and the PDP-1 pictures and were a reasonable price, but our order > was rejected because they only had one in stock. eBay has Mossman and > SwitchCraft, but they are either very expensive (more than $50 each), or > they only have one available. > > The switches that we are looking for need to be SPDT, three-position, > non-locking, center off. (If the switches have more than one pole we can > remove the extra poles to keep the operational force low.) Before we cave > in and buy some modern C&K toggle switches, does anyone have a source for > Mossman or SwitchCraft switches at a reasonable price? You haven't provided much detail about what limits you're willing to entertain in style of switch. There are a wide variety of lever switches available. There are leaf-contact switches that mount with two screws and a slot for the lever, leaf-contact with a throated actuator that mount in a 1/2 inch hole (much easier to mount than making a narrow slot), wafer switches with the two-screw/slot mount, etc. Slot-styles may have the lever plane made from stamped/sheet metal with a slide on knob vs. made from thick ~3/16-1/8 inch metal with a thread-on knob. The latter were very robust and the type typically found in telephone switchboards, although there were also some cheaper japanese makes. Do you want period-correct even if not the exact manuf/type originally used, or when you mention C&K are you referring to modern mini-toggles as acceptable? From rick at rickmurphy.net Mon Sep 24 04:59:29 2018 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 05:59:29 -0400 Subject: Floating point math in FORTRAN IV on PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5d54e9ec-bf8e-e4f2-6c5b-de5293dc8dab@rickmurphy.net> On 9/23/2018 9:59 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > I've been informed that "set cpu noeae" will disable the EAE. I just tried that: Simulation stopped, PC: 01210 (JMP 1207) sim> show cpu CPU, idle enabled, stability wait = 20s, 32KW, no EAE sim> c R F4 *FLOAT/G$ ??? 1.000002??? 1.000002??? 0.000000 ??? 2.000002??? 1.414215??? 0.693147 ??? 3.000002??? 1.732053??? 1.098614 ??? 4.000002??? 2.000002??? 1.386296 ??? 5.000002??? 2.236070??? 1.609439 ??? 6.000002??? 2.449491??? 1.791761 ??? 7.000002??? 2.645753??? 1.945912 ??? 8.000001??? 2.828429??? 2.079443 ??? 9.000002??? 3.000002??? 2.197226 ?(Deleted) > Just tried it with that...and there's the problem. No FPP or EAE seems > like a bad combination for running FORTRAN IV code that does any bit > of math operations. > > From SIMH (with EAE and FPP disabled): > > .R F4 > *FLOAT/G$ > ? ? 1.000002? ? 1.000002? ? 0.000000 > ? ? 2.000002? ? 1.000031? ? 0.693147 > ? ? 3.000002? ? 1.224747? ? 1.098614 > ? ? 4.000002? ? 2.000002? ? 1.386296 > ? ? 5.000002? ? 5.798176? ? 1.609439 > ? ? 6.000002? ? 4.015202? ? 1.791761 > ? ? 7.000002? ? 3.522211? ? 1.837092 > ? ? 8.000001? ? 2.000061? ?-1.920560 > ? ? 9.000002? ? 2.121345? ?-1.802777 ... > So, in summary, either EAE or FPP (or both) works fine. Without at > least one, don't count on any floating point math to be right (based > on my limited assessment). > > Surely this must've been known about 40+ years ago...right? Since it's (apparently) working for me, it seems like your FRTS.SV is probably a version with a bug in the EAE-disabled FP emulator. Note that getting the parts of the compiler right is hard, which is why the PiDP-8 project has put a lot of work into building their OS/8 distro from known good parts, mostly starting from source. ??? -Rick From kylevowen at gmail.com Mon Sep 24 07:05:46 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 08:05:46 -0400 Subject: Floating point math in FORTRAN IV on PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <5d54e9ec-bf8e-e4f2-6c5b-de5293dc8dab@rickmurphy.net> References: <5d54e9ec-bf8e-e4f2-6c5b-de5293dc8dab@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 24, 2018, 05:59 Rick Murphy wrote: > > Since it's (apparently) working for me, it seems like your FRTS.SV is > probably a version with a bug in the EAE-disabled FP emulator. Note that > getting the parts of the compiler right is hard, which is why the PiDP-8 > project has put a lot of work into building their OS/8 distro from known > good parts, mostly starting from source. > -Rick > Interesting; thanks for trying it. Do you have a link to the image you're using? I'm using this one: https://www.pdp8.net/pdp8cgi/os8_html?act=dir;fn=images/os8/disk2.fortran.rk05;sort=none Thanks, Kyle > From engwalljonathanthereal at gmail.com Mon Sep 24 06:58:40 2018 From: engwalljonathanthereal at gmail.com (Jonathan Engwall) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 04:58:40 -0700 Subject: Floating point math in FORTRAN IV on PDP-8 Message-ID: Maybe you don't want to fix your program. On September 19, 2018, at 5:46 PM, Michael Zahorik via cctalk wrote: Kyle, I have not run my machine since March. Summer is car season. But I thought that maybe I could run this little program quickly. My PDP8E started up, loaded the RIM and SERIAL DISK then OS/8 ran. Everything looked good, BUT...... something is wrong with my FORTRAN 4. Programs seem to compile, but I can't even run a simple test program that prints out whatever I enter from the TTY. Something has gone south. Anyway, I'm not familiar with the command FLOAT(). Do I have to have floating point hardware to use this? Well.... either there is something wrong with my machine or more likely with my FORTRAN software or even more likely operator error (me). So many times after a long summer I have to re learn most of what I learned last winter. Kinda of like when I was in school after summer vacation. ?Mike Zahorik (414) 254-6768 From: Kyle Owen via cctalk To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 5:43 PM Subject: Floating point math in FORTRAN IV on PDP-8 At VCF MW this past weekend, I was playing around with an FPP8/A stuffed into a PDP-8/M with a fan removed. This hex-wide two-board set will happily work in a quad-wide backplane, as it needs no signals that an 8/A would otherwise provide. I wanted to benchmark the FPP8/A with the software emulation that FORTRAN IV supposedly does. Mind you, I also don't have an EAE in mine, so software emulation for integer multiplication/division would also be used. I tried running a simple program to print some natural logs and square roots, which ran quite well with the FPP8/A in place. Without the FPP8/A...all of the results were wrong. Significantly. Negative numbers in many cases. No clear pattern as to what it's doing. Would anyone be able to try my program on some other real hardware (or another emulator) to verify? With and without EAE would also be desirable. I'm not sure how to disable the EAE in SIMH, else I'd try that too. Here's what SIMH looks like with my program: PDP-8 simulator V4.0-0 Current? ? ? ? git commit id: d35b8725 sim> at rk0 disk2.fortran.rk05 sim> b rk .TYPE FLOAT.FT ? ? ? DO 50 I=1,100 ? ? ? F = FLOAT(I) ? ? ? G = SQRT(F) ? ? ? H = ALOG(F) ? ? ? WRITE(4,100) F,G,H 50? ? CONTINUE 100? FORMAT(' ',F12.6,F12.6,F12.6) ? ? ? END .R F4 *FLOAT/G$ ? ? 1.000002? ? 1.000002? ? 0.000000 ? ? 2.000002? ? 1.414215? ? 0.693147 ? ? 3.000002? ? 1.732053? ? 1.098614 ? ? 4.000002? ? 2.000002? ? 1.386296 ? ? 5.000002? ? 2.236070? ? 1.609439 [snip] ? 98.000001? ? 9.899495? ? 4.584968 ? 99.000000? ? 9.949874? ? 4.595121 ? 100.000023? 10.000008? ? 4.605171 . Much appreciated, Kyle From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Sep 24 07:30:14 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 08:30:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC H744 +5 supply Message-ID: <20180924123014.AA4C218C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Brent Hilpert > Your conceptualisation around the role of electrons is perhaps a > little off. Well, I'm not taking into effect things like the velocity of electrons passing around the circuit (more current, with the same number of electrons, effectively), etc, but I value the 'electron-based-view' since it led me to understand the issue of EI conversion (something I don't recall having seen called out explicitly - e.g. it's not in that DEC tech manual). (Speaking of reducing the number of electrons: I recall a physicist - don't recall who - who jokingly suggested the reason they are all identical is that there is only _one_ - it travel forward in time an an electron, goes back as a positron; rinse, repeat! :-) > You don't need 'more' electrons to generate a higher current, you just > need to 'expend them' more quickly, using words like 'more' and > 'expend' loosely Right, particularly since what's really happening (e.g. during the L discharge phase) is that electrons are being 'borrowed' from the shells in the atoms of the conductor, run around the circuit, and then returning from whence they came. > Capacitors very much play a role in supplying current to the load. > Both the L & C play a role as energy reservoirs. Right, but the C doesn't play a _direct_ role in the EI conversion, the way the L does? (Or maybe it does - the voltage across the C could I guess play a role in mobilizing electrons in the circuit?) >>> The transformer is nonetheless much smaller than it would be in a >>> straight linear regulator design because the secondary current it has >>> to supply is several factors lower than for a comparable linear reg. >> That's because of the higher efficiency of this circuit .. ? > primarily it's because it's still a higher voltage by several multiples > ... and thus the current that the transformer secondary has to deal > with is the same factor lower .. meaning less copper for the secondary > and less iron for the core. Ah. Interesting tradeoff! So it seems like they probably picked the intermediate voltage to be as high as they could (to reduce the transformer cost), modulo the cost/availablility of transistors for the switching... > I haven't seen/read this TofOp. Here: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1140/1140_SystemManual.pdf if you're (still) interested; the H744 starts on pg 6-10 (pg 112 of the PDF). Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Sep 24 09:59:55 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 07:59:55 -0700 Subject: Floating point math in FORTRAN IV on PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/23/18 6:28 PM, Rick Murphy via cctalk wrote: > What you're getting means that the compiler, runtime, and libraries are not from the same release. > ??? -Rick > wasn't there just a long discussion about getting Fortran IV floating-point to work on either the simh or vcf lists? From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Sep 24 10:21:48 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 11:21:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC backplanes on eBay Message-ID: <20180924152148.040F018C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Anyone recognize these: https://www.ebay.com/itm/183446161463 They've got a fair amount of wire-wrap, so I'd think 70's-80's. Noel From pbirkel at gmail.com Mon Sep 24 10:31:55 2018 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 11:31:55 -0400 Subject: DEC backplanes on eBay In-Reply-To: <20180924152148.040F018C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180924152148.040F018C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <019401d4541b$ba359170$2ea0b450$@gmail.com> Superstar; see my post two weeks ago. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel Chiappa via cctalk Sent: Monday, September 24, 2018 11:22 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: DEC backplanes on eBay Anyone recognize these: https://www.ebay.com/itm/183446161463 They've got a fair amount of wire-wrap, so I'd think 70's-80's. Noel From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Mon Sep 24 12:23:55 2018 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 17:23:55 +0000 Subject: SPACEWAR! Switch Boxes for a PDP-12 Message-ID: >Message: 13 >Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2018 10:53:20 -0700 >From: Al Kossow > >On 9/23/18 7:46 AM, Michael Thompson via cctech wrote: >> Before we cave >> in and buy some modern C&K toggle switches > >ugh > >use black arcade pushbuttons > >that is what the PDP-1 at CHM has been using for over 10 years https://na.suzohapp.com/products/pushbuttons/58-9166-L Bob [http://na.suzohapp.com/images/50/58-9166-L.png] Black Pushbutton w/ .187 Horizontal Microswitch - 58-9166-L Black Pushbutton w/ .187 Horizontal Microswitch na.suzohapp.com From justin.keogh at v6y.net Mon Sep 24 13:17:13 2018 From: justin.keogh at v6y.net (Justin Keogh) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 11:17:13 -0700 Subject: Rayethon Computer AN/FYK9 CMI Store 33 Message-ID: <153781303362.14318.11788867422139357953@localhost> Anyone know more about this? So far I have only found references to Rayethon Computers in old trade mags. http://v6y.net/IMG_20180912_170812.jpg The rack is as stout as it gets. BTW if anyone wants a nice RXO2 (auction ending in 6 hours), bidding starts at $1: https://www.ebay.com/itm/202440567768 Cheers! -Justin From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Sep 24 13:26:57 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 12:26:57 -0600 Subject: SPACEWAR! Switch Boxes for a PDP-12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 11:23 AM, Robert Feldman via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >that is what the PDP-1 at CHM has been using for over 10 years > > https://na.suzohapp.com/products/pushbuttons/58-9166-L Ken Sumrall built the Spacewar control boxes used at the museum, with some suggestions from me. We originally intended these to be temporary, and to build nicer control boxes later. Since they were intended to be used by restoration team members, and possibly museum guests, we wanted them to be reliable rather than authentic, and specifically did NOT want these temporary boxes to themselves become historical artifacts. We chose inexpensive but robust arcade pushbuttons. They can take a beating, and in the event that the microswitch does break or wear out, it can easily be replaced, though the complete button assembly with microswitch is not expensive. The boxes are particle board. We used DE-9 connectors. On the PDP-1, hyperspace is invoked by the CW and CCW rotate controls being activated simultaneously, so the hyperspace button is wired via series diodes to both rotate buttons. After we built them, Steve Russell pointed out to us that although these boxes don't look like at all like the originals, they actually are authentic, in the sense that like the originals, these boxes were quickly knocked together rather than carefully planned, and are functional rather than pretty. We positioned the individual buttons based on the layout used on one of the Atari coinop games, "Space Duel" IIRC, on the because Atari had done a good job of laying them out to be easy to use. I'm not trying to discourage anyone from trying to make replicas of the original Spacewar control boxes, but aside from some grainy photos and a brief description, not much detail about them is actually known. We do not know what controls were used when PDP-1 Spacewar was demonstrated at the Computer Museum in Boston. We don't think they had the original control boxes. Possibly they might have just used the PDP-1 console switches, which is quite inconvenient and increases wear on those switches. When we restored the PDP-1, we discovered that some of the console switches were flaky, and upon inspection, that they appeared to have been replaced multiple times, with suboptimal craftsmanship. From useddec at gmail.com Mon Sep 24 13:27:53 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 13:27:53 -0500 Subject: Rayethon Computer AN/FYK9 CMI Store 33 In-Reply-To: <153781303362.14318.11788867422139357953@localhost> References: <153781303362.14318.11788867422139357953@localhost> Message-ID: Hi Justin, I could use another RX02. I know someone going to Denver for the DG event. Anyway you could get it up there? What do you think shipping would be to IL? I'd put $50 into it and another $50 into shipping. Thanks, Paul On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 1:17 PM, Justin Keogh via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Anyone know more about this? So far I have only found references to > Rayethon Computers in old trade mags. > > http://v6y.net/IMG_20180912_170812.jpg > > The rack is as stout as it gets. > > BTW if anyone wants a nice RXO2 (auction ending in 6 hours), bidding > starts at $1: https://www.ebay.com/itm/202440567768 > > Cheers! > -Justin > From justin.keogh at v6y.net Mon Sep 24 13:29:31 2018 From: justin.keogh at v6y.net (Justin Keogh) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 11:29:31 -0700 Subject: Rayethon Computer AN/FYK9 CMI Store 33 In-Reply-To: References: <153781303362.14318.11788867422139357953@localhost> Message-ID: <153781377171.18183.5378200561011044386@localhost> Hi Paul, shipping is automatically calculated by ebay, there should be a small calculator icon by the shipping info on that listing. Since it's up for auction, I cant gurantee you will win, but best of luck! I am happy to ship to any address the winner provides, and I take great care to pack things properly. -J Quoting Paul Anderson (2018-09-24 11:27:53) > Hi Justin, > I could use another RX02. I know someone going to Denver for the DG > event. Anyway you could get it up there?? What do you think shipping > would be to IL? I'd put $50 into it and another $50 into shipping. > Thanks, Paul > > On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 1:17 PM, Justin Keogh via cctalk > <[1]cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Anyone know more about this? So far I have only found references to > Rayethon Computers in old trade mags. > [2]http://v6y.net/IMG_20180912_170812.jpg > The rack is as stout as it gets. > BTW if anyone wants a nice RXO2 (auction ending in 6 hours), bidding > starts at $1: [3]https://www.ebay.com/itm/202440567768 > Cheers! > -Justin > > References > > 1. mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org > 2. http://v6y.net/IMG_20180912_170812.jpg > 3. https://www.ebay.com/itm/202440567768 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Sep 24 13:49:30 2018 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 14:49:30 -0400 Subject: Rayethon Computer AN/FYK9 CMI Store 33 In-Reply-To: <153781303362.14318.11788867422139357953@localhost> References: <153781303362.14318.11788867422139357953@localhost> Message-ID: It looks like a Raytheon 706 without the front covers. -- Will On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 2:21 PM Justin Keogh via cctalk wrote: > > Anyone know more about this? So far I have only found references to Rayethon Computers in old trade mags. > > http://v6y.net/IMG_20180912_170812.jpg > > The rack is as stout as it gets. > > BTW if anyone wants a nice RXO2 (auction ending in 6 hours), bidding starts at $1: https://www.ebay.com/itm/202440567768 > > Cheers! > -Justin From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Sep 24 14:15:11 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 12:15:11 -0700 Subject: Rayethon Computer AN/FYK9 CMI Store 33 In-Reply-To: References: <153781303362.14318.11788867422139357953@localhost> Message-ID: <1cd6051b-c4c5-98a5-6bc5-35f8d833b2d9@bitsavers.org> sadly all that is there is some Data Products core memory with a couple of boards missing On 9/24/18 11:49 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > It looks like a Raytheon 706 without the front covers. From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Sep 24 14:45:37 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 15:45:37 -0400 Subject: Rayethon Computer AN/FYK9 CMI Store 33 In-Reply-To: References: <153781303362.14318.11788867422139357953@localhost> Message-ID: I have a copy of the February 1970 Raytheon 706 Computer User's Manual. Basically it's a 16-bit mini computer. The system monitor is a program called X-RAY (theon) and the 706 was paired with an ASR 33. Bill On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 2:49 PM William Donzelli via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > It looks like a Raytheon 706 without the front covers. > > -- > Will > On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 2:21 PM Justin Keogh via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Anyone know more about this? So far I have only found references to > Rayethon Computers in old trade mags. > > > > http://v6y.net/IMG_20180912_170812.jpg > > > > The rack is as stout as it gets. > > > > BTW if anyone wants a nice RXO2 (auction ending in 6 hours), bidding > starts at $1: https://www.ebay.com/itm/202440567768 > > > > Cheers! > > -Justin > From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Sep 24 21:06:28 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 21:06:28 -0500 Subject: Rayethon Computer AN/FYK9 CMI Store 33 In-Reply-To: <153781303362.14318.11788867422139357953@localhost> References: <153781303362.14318.11788867422139357953@localhost> Message-ID: <5BA99824.3030309@pico-systems.com> On 09/24/2018 01:17 PM, Justin Keogh via cctalk wrote: > Anyone know more about this? So far I have only found references to Rayethon Computers in old trade mags. > > http://v6y.net/IMG_20180912_170812.jpg > > The rack is as stout as it gets. > > AN/FYK means fixed installation, data processing, computing, which doesn't tell a whole lot. I couldn't get any hits on the FYK-9. In the contract number, it indicates the contract was let in 1967. I see IC's on the boards and what looks like a core plane in the middle. In fact, from the card type designators, I'm guessing that module at the top is JUST a core memory system. It is also possible the core memory has nothing at all to do with the label on the rack, and was just swapped into the rack for storage. The core memory system seems to be made by Data Products / Cambridge Memories Inc. Jon From justin.keogh at v6y.net Mon Sep 24 21:29:00 2018 From: justin.keogh at v6y.net (Justin Keogh) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 19:29:00 -0700 Subject: Rayethon Computer AN/FYK9 CMI Store 33 In-Reply-To: <5BA99824.3030309@pico-systems.com> References: <153781303362.14318.11788867422139357953@localhost> <5BA99824.3030309@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <153784254007.7848.12003295823265061236@localhost> Thanks everyone. Here is a pic of the back: http://v6y.net/IMG_20180924_183318.jpg I will keep my eyes out, there is a small chance I will find the computer this memory went to. The bottom item in the rack is also labeled Rayethon, it's a power supply. -Justin Quoting Jon Elson (2018-09-24 19:06:28) > On 09/24/2018 01:17 PM, Justin Keogh via cctalk wrote: > > Anyone know more about this? So far I have only found references to Rayethon Computers in old trade mags. > > > > http://v6y.net/IMG_20180912_170812.jpg > > > > The rack is as stout as it gets. > > > > > AN/FYK means fixed installation, data processing, computing, > which doesn't tell a whole lot. > I couldn't get any hits on the FYK-9. > In the contract number, it indicates the contract was let in > 1967. I see IC's on the boards and what looks like a core > plane in the middle. In fact, from the card type > designators, I'm guessing that module at the top is JUST a > core memory system. It is also possible the core memory has > nothing at all to do with the label on the rack, and was > just swapped into the rack for storage. > > The core memory system seems to be made by Data Products / > Cambridge Memories Inc. > > Jon From shumaker at att.net Mon Sep 24 22:21:51 2018 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 20:21:51 -0700 Subject: Fall cleaning - 9-track drives available In-Reply-To: <7b6e957e-63b8-3c9b-3659-9fc72ea561f5@sbcglobal.net> References: <46ae13c1-a988-7b74-9709-d298ada49316@sbcglobal.net> <2ce8242b-7de5-c6c2-6189-c06a92fd3f24@sbcglobal.net> <3520004d-5ffb-2b3c-444b-badf78250444@att.net> <7b6e957e-63b8-3c9b-3659-9fc72ea561f5@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Ok.?? I'll claim it and we'll work on availability later.?? Worst caste, I can come over after work on a weeknight of your chossing. Steve On 9/23/2018 6:47 PM, Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk wrote: > I can hold it but I will probably not be around on the weekends for > the next few weeks or so. > > Bob > > On 9/23/2018 1:03 PM, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: >> If you can hold it until the 6th, I can pick it up either Sat or Sun. >> >> Steve >> >> >> dOn 9/22/2018 2:21 PM, Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk wrote: >>> No, it's still available, come get it! >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> On 9/22/2018 1:35 PM, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: >>>> Ok.. I'll bite...?? Is the CDC/clone system spoken for yet? >>>> >>>> >>>> Steve Shumaker >>>> >>>> >>>> On 9/21/2018 7:44 PM, Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk wrote: >>>>> I have four 9-track tape drives, and a dirty DEC rack, that I need >>>>> to get rid of. >>>>> >>>>> Two of the drives are HP 7970B's. One has the door unattached. >>>>> Then there's a Kennedy 9100 800/1600 bpi drive. >>>>> Very heavy.? As found, none tested by me. Just don't have time to >>>>> play with them. >>>>> >>>>> Last is a CDC drive complete with an AST clone PC with an Overland >>>>> Data controller and software. This >>>>> was running a few years ago but has not been used since. Has Media >>>>> Master format conversion software also. >>>>> >>>>> There's also a smallish DEC rack. Could use the top painted but >>>>> otherwise not too bad. Includes four sets of rack >>>>> slides. >>>>> >>>>> All are located in Santa Cruz, CA and need to be gone soon, I need >>>>> the room in my hangar. Come get them! >>>>> >>>>> Photos here: http://dvq.com/fall_cleaning/ >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> > From cube1 at charter.net Mon Sep 24 17:58:45 2018 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 17:58:45 -0500 Subject: Manual for Documation TM200 punched card reader In-Reply-To: References: <008501d451b5$50d6c590$f28450b0$@emailtoilet.com> <3.0.6.32.20180923003430.0101b810@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <217b0b61-3984-55d6-be75-35740db2bf21@charter.net> FYI, I have a design for a RS-232 interface to the Documation M series interface, based on a PIC 16F877. The design is in turn based on one that does not use a PIC, that Al Kossow shared with me some time back - and is designed to work with the same software on the PC side (at least if I recall correctly - I did this back in 2013). [I seem to recall that when I was testing it, I just used a terminal emulator of some sort, so PC side software would be easy.] The board design is in KiCAD. The "firmware" for the PIC is in C, developed using MPLABX (freely available). So, if anyone wants the materials, say so, and I will share a link, and scan in my interface connector pinouts, etc., and put up a folder on my Google Drive. I also still have *ONE* *UNPOPULATED* board (approx. 4.25" x 2.5") that I would be willing to part with for $10 US + S&H. As I recall, there is one missing pull-up resistor that is wrong on the schematic (and thus missing on the board, too), from pin 1 of the PIC to VCC, and is easy to deal with, and that the LED labels on the silk screen are flipped around on the board vs. the schematic [which can be dealt with easily in software, so that the LEDs match the silk screen.] The design includes an in-circuit programming header. Unfortunately, the pinouts I used for the 40 pin connector on the PC board to the card reader are NOT the same as what the Computer History Museum has, and it makes wiring the cable a bit of a pain, because the signal and signal return lines are not next to each other on the connector, but should be so using a twisted pair cable. JRJ On 9/22/2018 10:53 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctech wrote: > On Sat, Sep 22, 2018 at 10:34 AM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk > wrote: >> By coincidence, today I started evaluation of a punched/optical card reader. >> Model TM200, made by Documation Inc. >> >> Pics here: http://everist.org/pics/TM200/ >> >> The immediately obvious problems: >> * Mains input connector is one of those old round locking type. Not sure if I have any of these. > > I have an M200 and I just had to look up in the docs (on bitsavers) > that my unit requires a Hubbel > 7484 for the power cable. Yours is different but it's likely to be > some sort of Hubbel product. > > >> * Hose from vacuum pump to pickup heel is hardened. Needs replacement. >> * Plastic elbow fitting for vacuum to pickup heel is broken in half. Make new one. >> * Plastic mount for status display lights is cracking around brass nut inserts. >> * Four rubber transport rollers have de-vulcanised, melted, and flowed gunk. Urrgh, what a mess. > > Hmm... I probably need to look into mine for similar things. > >> * Ouch, that interface connector. > > Fortunately, my M200 came with a factory add-on board that's an RS-232 > interface to the upstream host. > >> I wonder where I'm going to find some card stacks for testing it? If I get that far. > > An old co-worker buddy of mine gave me a box of his punchcards when he > was in school in 1970. He's really on me to read them. I don't want > to put his in first and have roller goo or something else ruin them so > I have a bit of exploration to do. > > I'll be interested to hear how your saga unfolds because I'm expecting > all of that and more on mine. > > -ethan > From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Sep 24 19:29:48 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 20:29:48 -0400 Subject: Rayethon Computer AN/FYK9 CMI Store 33 In-Reply-To: <1cd6051b-c4c5-98a5-6bc5-35f8d833b2d9@bitsavers.org> References: <153781303362.14318.11788867422139357953@localhost> <1cd6051b-c4c5-98a5-6bc5-35f8d833b2d9@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: A complete general-purpose system complete with asr33 and XRAY compatible papertapes would be awesome and pretty rare. Are there any complete 706 or 703s out there I wonder. On Mon, Sep 24, 2018, 5:46 PM Al Kossow via cctech wrote: > sadly all that is there is some Data Products core memory > with a couple of boards missing > > On 9/24/18 11:49 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > > It looks like a Raytheon 706 without the front covers. > > From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon Sep 24 19:37:27 2018 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 20:37:27 -0400 Subject: SPACEWAR! Switch Boxes for a PDP-12 (Bob Rosenbloom) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > From: Bob Rosenbloom > Subject: Re: SPACEWAR! Switch Boxes for a PDP-12 > > How about these? They look close, but are still a bit expensive. > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-SWITCHCRAFT-60312DL-MOMENTARY-SWITCH/253586118419?epid=27018592158&hash=item3b0ae91713:g:NvcAAOSwqMRa4hGS:sc:USPSFirstClass!95051!US!-1 > > Bob > I bought 5x of them. They are the locking style that we don't want, but I think that we can bend the angled part to make them momentary. Thanks for the help! -- Michael Thompson From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Sep 24 19:40:22 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 17:40:22 -0700 Subject: Rayethon Computer AN/FYK9 CMI Store 33 In-Reply-To: References: <153781303362.14318.11788867422139357953@localhost> <1cd6051b-c4c5-98a5-6bc5-35f8d833b2d9@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5526f4eb-4c49-4b6c-e05b-c0a9b001ca45@bitsavers.org> The only Raytheon I know of is Bob's 704 http://dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/1k/704.jpg On 9/24/18 5:29 PM, Bill Degnan wrote: > A complete general-purpose system complete? with asr33 and XRAY compatible papertapes would be awesome and pretty rare.? > Are there any complete 706 or 703s out there? I wonder. > > On Mon, Sep 24, 2018, 5:46 PM Al Kossow via cctech > wrote: > > sadly all that is there is some Data Products core memory > with a couple of boards missing > > On 9/24/18 11:49 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > > It looks like a Raytheon 706 without the front covers. > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 25 00:56:43 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 22:56:43 -0700 Subject: Rayethon Computer AN/FYK9 CMI Store 33 In-Reply-To: <5526f4eb-4c49-4b6c-e05b-c0a9b001ca45@bitsavers.org> References: <153781303362.14318.11788867422139357953@localhost> <1cd6051b-c4c5-98a5-6bc5-35f8d833b2d9@bitsavers.org> <5526f4eb-4c49-4b6c-e05b-c0a9b001ca45@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <7b623d30-e76f-f6c8-47d4-07b7d370c5e4@sydex.com> On 09/24/2018 05:40 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > The only Raytheon I know of is Bob's 704 > http://dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/1k/704.jpg > These are all pretty boring--8-bit multiple word size, etc. How about some 22-bit or 13 bit architectures? --Chuck From microtechdart at gmail.com Tue Sep 25 01:01:11 2018 From: microtechdart at gmail.com (AJ Palmgren) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 23:01:11 -0700 Subject: Which Operating System for my DCC-116 E / Entrex 480 / Nixdorf 620 / Data General Nova 1200 clone ? In-Reply-To: References: <008301d38ed5$008598d0$0190ca70$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Dominique, Might you have any updates on your Nixdorf 620 / Entrex 480 system? I am quite interested, and it's been a while since I've seen any email with these keywords here, from you or anyone. Someday, it is my hope that I might take a tour of your system in Belgium, on my next trip to the region, if you would be open to this. I am quite fascinated by this rare dinosaur of a system. I have begun to archive your work, and everything else I've ever found about the Entrex 480 systems here: http://Entrex480.com Like your system restoration, it is a work in progress... Best always, AJ On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 9:52 AM Dominique Carlier via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I understand very well your concerns about sending by mail rare data on > magnetic media. It's a pity that I live so far away (in Belgium), even > if I have not finished to configure my machines, at the end I should be > able to write anything on any media, and concerning magnetic tapes it > will be from 500 to 6250 bpi. > > If one day you find in your stock a communication board for Nova 1200 > that you do not use please note that I am a potential buyer. > > In the meantime, I have to find solutions to reopen all my old monsters > to the outside world ;-) > > Dominique > > On 16/01/2018 15:19, Jay West via cctalk wrote: > > The 'other Jay' wrote... > > ---------------------------------- > > Diagnostics for DG systems are notoriously difficult to find. I have a > few, in listing format. > > ---------------------------------- > > I have a full official DG-issued/labeled original diagnostic OS tape. I > do believe it is at 800bpi though. If I had an 800 bpi drive (everything I > have is 1600-6250) I'd image it for everyone. > > > > I have a nice S/130 rack that I was almost finished restoring till Bruce > Ray stopped responding. It's been sitting in my workshop for years now and > I may have to just get rid of it. Next to it is a pile of about 8 nova > 800/1200 cpus (all stuffed with boards) that I was going to start on next, > but was waiting till the S/130 was done. I'd like to get done with them so > I can move on to other machines that need to be restored... but may have to > just move them out altogether. > > > > I'm wary of just sending the tape through the mail for imaging.... maybe > I can find someone local with an 800 bpi tape drive and eric smith's > tapeutils. > > > > J > > > > > > > > -- Thanks, AJ Palmgren http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck http://SelmaTrainWreck.blogspot.com https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283 https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/ From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Sep 25 10:39:31 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 17:39:31 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Rayethon Computer AN/FYK9 CMI Store 33 In-Reply-To: <5526f4eb-4c49-4b6c-e05b-c0a9b001ca45@bitsavers.org> References: <153781303362.14318.11788867422139357953@localhost> <1cd6051b-c4c5-98a5-6bc5-35f8d833b2d9@bitsavers.org> <5526f4eb-4c49-4b6c-e05b-c0a9b001ca45@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Sep 2018, Al Kossow wrote: > The only Raytheon I know of is Bob's 704 > http://dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/1k/704.jpg Aw, come on, you could know it better. We also have a 704 since many years, including software and documentation. You have mirrored my scans on bitsavers ;-) Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Sep 25 10:45:32 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 17:45:32 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Rayethon Computer AN/FYK9 CMI Store 33 In-Reply-To: <7b623d30-e76f-f6c8-47d4-07b7d370c5e4@sydex.com> References: <153781303362.14318.11788867422139357953@localhost> <1cd6051b-c4c5-98a5-6bc5-35f8d833b2d9@bitsavers.org> <5526f4eb-4c49-4b6c-e05b-c0a9b001ca45@bitsavers.org> <7b623d30-e76f-f6c8-47d4-07b7d370c5e4@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Sep 2018, Chuck Guzis wrote: > How about some 22-bit or 13 bit architectures? How about our Dietz MINCAL 523? 19 bit architecture, memory is 20 bits with parity. Microprogrammed machine, microcode within normal address space, mixed twos-complement and sign-magnitude arithmetic. Completely reverse-engineered due to lack of information :-)) 8K core memory, microcode and boot loader stored in foil ROMs (similar to wire rope ROMs). Christian From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 25 11:21:55 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 09:21:55 -0700 Subject: Rayethon Computer AN/FYK9 CMI Store 33 In-Reply-To: References: <153781303362.14318.11788867422139357953@localhost> <1cd6051b-c4c5-98a5-6bc5-35f8d833b2d9@bitsavers.org> <5526f4eb-4c49-4b6c-e05b-c0a9b001ca45@bitsavers.org> <7b623d30-e76f-f6c8-47d4-07b7d370c5e4@sydex.com> Message-ID: <069f8e71-e1fb-c5d3-43ac-1ef79d54e269@sydex.com> On 09/25/2018 08:45 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 24 Sep 2018, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> How about some 22-bit or 13 bit architectures? > > How about our Dietz MINCAL 523? 19 bit architecture, memory is 20 bits > with parity. Microprogrammed machine, microcode within normal address > space, mixed twos-complement and sign-magnitude arithmetic. Completely > reverse-engineered due to lack of information :-)) > 8K core memory, microcode and boot loader stored in foil ROMs (similar > to wire rope ROMs). I was wondering if anyone would rise to the challenge. In fact, some Harvard-architecture MCUs have unusual *instruction* word lengths. I think the PB250 was 22/44 bits and, of course, there was a whole horde of 36-bit mainframes, some extending well into the 1980s, as well as other systems with multiples of 6 bit lengths. How many of today's ISAs are *not* byte-addressable nor implement a stack? I'm somewhat curious as to how HLLs have influenced our thought regarding architecture. --Chuck From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Sep 25 12:04:15 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 10:04:15 -0700 Subject: Rayethon Computer AN/FYK9 CMI Store 33 In-Reply-To: <069f8e71-e1fb-c5d3-43ac-1ef79d54e269@sydex.com> References: <153781303362.14318.11788867422139357953@localhost> <1cd6051b-c4c5-98a5-6bc5-35f8d833b2d9@bitsavers.org> <5526f4eb-4c49-4b6c-e05b-c0a9b001ca45@bitsavers.org> <7b623d30-e76f-f6c8-47d4-07b7d370c5e4@sydex.com> <069f8e71-e1fb-c5d3-43ac-1ef79d54e269@sydex.com> Message-ID: <0F37C122-0592-4530-851E-9D47BA8472A6@avanthar.com> > On Sep 25, 2018, at 9:21 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 09/25/2018 08:45 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: >> On Mon, 24 Sep 2018, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> How about some 22-bit or 13 bit architectures? >> >> How about our Dietz MINCAL 523? 19 bit architecture, memory is 20 bits >> with parity. Microprogrammed machine, microcode within normal address >> space, mixed twos-complement and sign-magnitude arithmetic. Completely >> reverse-engineered due to lack of information :-)) >> 8K core memory, microcode and boot loader stored in foil ROMs (similar >> to wire rope ROMs). > > I was wondering if anyone would rise to the challenge. In fact, some > Harvard-architecture MCUs have unusual *instruction* word lengths. > > I think the PB250 was 22/44 bits and, of course, there was a whole horde > of 36-bit mainframes, some extending well into the 1980s, as well as > other systems with multiples of 6 bit lengths. > > How many of today's ISAs are *not* byte-addressable nor implement a > stack? I'm somewhat curious as to how HLLs have influenced our thought > regarding architecture. > > --Chuck > I?m trying to remember if the Harris Minicomputers were 22-bit or 24-bit, I think they were 24-bit. Zane From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Sep 25 12:08:57 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 17:08:57 +0000 Subject: Rayethon Computer AN/FYK9 CMI Store 33 In-Reply-To: <069f8e71-e1fb-c5d3-43ac-1ef79d54e269@sydex.com> References: <153781303362.14318.11788867422139357953@localhost> <1cd6051b-c4c5-98a5-6bc5-35f8d833b2d9@bitsavers.org> <5526f4eb-4c49-4b6c-e05b-c0a9b001ca45@bitsavers.org> <7b623d30-e76f-f6c8-47d4-07b7d370c5e4@sydex.com> , <069f8e71-e1fb-c5d3-43ac-1ef79d54e269@sydex.com> Message-ID: Nicolet 1080 is 20 bit data but has 16 bit address space. No stack functions. It has a register called link but that is only a single bit carry. Subroutines use the first address to store the return, meaning they were not recursive without something to save the returns ( I think dec did this too but I'm not a dec person ). 20 bits was considered enough noise level to do ffts for NMR chemical analysis. The machine typically came with 12Kx20 core but one could add on another 12Kx20 unit, even though the address size could access 64K. There were special DMA operations that only ran on the lower memory. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Chuck Guzis via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2018 9:21:55 AM To: Christian Corti via cctalk Subject: Re: Rayethon Computer AN/FYK9 CMI Store 33 On 09/25/2018 08:45 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 24 Sep 2018, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> How about some 22-bit or 13 bit architectures? > > How about our Dietz MINCAL 523? 19 bit architecture, memory is 20 bits > with parity. Microprogrammed machine, microcode within normal address > space, mixed twos-complement and sign-magnitude arithmetic. Completely > reverse-engineered due to lack of information :-)) > 8K core memory, microcode and boot loader stored in foil ROMs (similar > to wire rope ROMs). I was wondering if anyone would rise to the challenge. In fact, some Harvard-architecture MCUs have unusual *instruction* word lengths. I think the PB250 was 22/44 bits and, of course, there was a whole horde of 36-bit mainframes, some extending well into the 1980s, as well as other systems with multiples of 6 bit lengths. How many of today's ISAs are *not* byte-addressable nor implement a stack? I'm somewhat curious as to how HLLs have influenced our thought regarding architecture. --Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Sep 25 12:09:29 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 11:09:29 -0600 Subject: early ANSI C drafts, pre-1989 standard Message-ID: I'm interested in looking at any published drafts prior to the C 1989 standard. I found X3J11-88-090 here: https://yurichev.com/ref/Draft%20ANSI%20C%20Standard%20(ANSI%20X3J11-88-090)%20(May%2013,%201988).txt That makes mention of the previous draft being X3J11-88-001. Does anyone still have a copy of that draft, or other pre-89 drafts? I'm not looking for any of the published standards (I've purchased them), nor any drafts after the 1989 standard. Eric From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Sep 25 12:35:12 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 13:35:12 -0400 Subject: Rayethon Computer AN/FYK9 CMI Store 33 In-Reply-To: References: <153781303362.14318.11788867422139357953@localhost> <1cd6051b-c4c5-98a5-6bc5-35f8d833b2d9@bitsavers.org> <5526f4eb-4c49-4b6c-e05b-c0a9b001ca45@bitsavers.org> <7b623d30-e76f-f6c8-47d4-07b7d370c5e4@sydex.com> <069f8e71-e1fb-c5d3-43ac-1ef79d54e269@sydex.com> Message-ID: While we're throwing around bits, here's one - the 1960 ISI 609 Information and Computer System runs 4096 Words of 39 bits plus a parity bit OR 8192 Words of 19 bits plus a parity bit OR 12288 Words of 13 bits each. ...but the basic machine operates upon 39 bit words with the instructions. The 19 bit is for progrmmed features and the 13-bit word is used to store data constants. ISI Information Systems was out of Skokie Illinois, they used to be called Panascan Division Panellit, Inc. Bill On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 1:09 PM dwight via cctalk wrote: > Nicolet 1080 is 20 bit data but has 16 bit address space. No stack > functions. It has a register called link but that is only a single bit > carry. Subroutines use the first address to store the return, meaning they > were not recursive without something to save the returns ( I think dec did > this too but I'm not a dec person ). > > 20 bits was considered enough noise level to do ffts for NMR chemical > analysis. The machine typically came with 12Kx20 core but one could add on > another 12Kx20 unit, even though the address size could access 64K. There > were special DMA operations that only ran on the lower memory. > > Dwight > > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Chuck Guzis via > cctalk > Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2018 9:21:55 AM > To: Christian Corti via cctalk > Subject: Re: Rayethon Computer AN/FYK9 CMI Store 33 > > On 09/25/2018 08:45 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, 24 Sep 2018, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> How about some 22-bit or 13 bit architectures? > > > > How about our Dietz MINCAL 523? 19 bit architecture, memory is 20 bits > > with parity. Microprogrammed machine, microcode within normal address > > space, mixed twos-complement and sign-magnitude arithmetic. Completely > > reverse-engineered due to lack of information :-)) > > 8K core memory, microcode and boot loader stored in foil ROMs (similar > > to wire rope ROMs). > > I was wondering if anyone would rise to the challenge. In fact, some > Harvard-architecture MCUs have unusual *instruction* word lengths. > > I think the PB250 was 22/44 bits and, of course, there was a whole horde > of 36-bit mainframes, some extending well into the 1980s, as well as > other systems with multiples of 6 bit lengths. > > How many of today's ISAs are *not* byte-addressable nor implement a > stack? I'm somewhat curious as to how HLLs have influenced our thought > regarding architecture. > > --Chuck > > From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Sep 25 14:35:37 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 21:35:37 +0200 Subject: IBM 3270 MCA card available Message-ID: I have some kind of IBM 3270 MCA board available for the cost of shipping from Sweden. IBM P/N 26F0191. Have no way of testing it, but it was pulled from an otherwise working machine. https://i.imgur.com/jBBDrcnl.jpg /Mattis From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Sep 25 14:39:58 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 21:39:58 +0200 Subject: RA60 head #4 Message-ID: I have what I believe is an unused RA60 head #4. At least the surface looks very clean. Someone has written "RA60 04" on the side of the box. On the top there is handwritten 70-18661-04. https://i.imgur.com/RNK0FOTl.jpg I could use a RL02 or RL01 head as a trade if someone is interested. /Mattis From gerardcjat at free.fr Tue Sep 25 09:47:56 2018 From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 16:47:56 +0200 Subject: Rayethon Computer AN/FYK9 CMI Store 33 Message-ID: <581C3408C8B94195BDABAAF03115F85F@medion> @ Chuck, I know you know about the FST1 computer ( 24 bit ). Do you know that there is ( now ?? ) a bit of documentation about it on Bytesavers ?? in .... PDF/Fairchild/Sentry .... From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 25 10:37:55 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 08:37:55 -0700 Subject: Rayethon Computer AN/FYK9 CMI Store 33 In-Reply-To: <581C3408C8B94195BDABAAF03115F85F@medion> References: <581C3408C8B94195BDABAAF03115F85F@medion> Message-ID: <0035b29f-603f-46f4-fb7e-8bc9ad3d1c7c@sydex.com> Hi Gerard, Yes, it's been there for some time. Al K. uploaded it upon my request. It turns out that my guesses about the architecture based on floppy disk data were correct! Thanks, Chuck On 09/25/2018 07:47 AM, GerardCJAT via cctech wrote: > @ Chuck, > > I know you know about the FST1 computer ( 24 bit ). > Do you know that there is ( now ?? ) a bit of documentation about it on Bytesavers ?? > > in .... PDF/Fairchild/Sentry .... > From anders at abc80.net Tue Sep 25 12:25:10 2018 From: anders at abc80.net (Anders Sandahl) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 19:25:10 +0200 Subject: SPACEWAR! Switch Boxes for a PDP-12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <85c47d5a63fd7bd3917bb8c161486d21.squirrel@webmail.sadata.se> > Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2018 12:26:57 -0600 > From: Eric Smith > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: SPACEWAR! Switch Boxes for a PDP-12 > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 11:23 AM, Robert Feldman via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >that is what the PDP-1 at CHM has been using for over 10 years >> >> https://na.suzohapp.com/products/pushbuttons/58-9166-L > > > Ken Sumrall built the Spacewar control boxes used at the museum, with some > suggestions from me. We originally intended these to be temporary, and to > build nicer control boxes later. Since they were intended to be used by > restoration team members, and possibly museum guests, we wanted them to be > reliable rather than authentic, and specifically did NOT want these > temporary boxes to themselves become historical artifacts. We chose > inexpensive but robust arcade pushbuttons. They can take a beating, and in > the event that the microswitch does break or wear out, it can easily be > replaced, though the complete button assembly with microswitch is not > expensive. The boxes are particle board. We used DE-9 connectors. On the > PDP-1, hyperspace is invoked by the CW and CCW rotate controls being > activated simultaneously, so the hyperspace button is wired via series > diodes to both rotate buttons. > > After we built them, Steve Russell pointed out to us that although these > boxes don't look like at all like the originals, they actually are > authentic, in the sense that like the originals, these boxes were quickly > knocked together rather than carefully planned, and are functional rather > than pretty. > > We positioned the individual buttons based on the layout used on one of > the > Atari coinop games, "Space Duel" IIRC, on the because Atari had done a > good > job of laying them out to be easy to use. > > I'm not trying to discourage anyone from trying to make replicas of the > original Spacewar control boxes, but aside from some grainy photos and a > brief description, not much detail about them is actually known. > > We do not know what controls were used when PDP-1 Spacewar was > demonstrated > at the Computer Museum in Boston. We don't think they had the original > control boxes. Possibly they might have just used the PDP-1 console > switches, which is quite inconvenient and increases wear on those > switches. When we restored the PDP-1, we discovered that some of the > console switches were flaky, and upon inspection, that they appeared to > have been replaced multiple times, with suboptimal craftsmanship. > I like the ideas with the diodes for hyperspace, I'll steal that right away! From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Sep 25 16:56:54 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 15:56:54 -0600 Subject: IBM 3270 MCA card available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1d77f3ac-8f91-f04a-eaf1-fbac0ebde88b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 09/25/2018 01:35 PM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > I have some kind of IBM 3270 MCA board available for the cost of shipping > from Sweden. IBM P/N 26F0191. Have no way of testing it, but it was > pulled from an otherwise working machine. > > https://i.imgur.com/jBBDrcnl.jpg Have you considered posting this to the comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware newsgroup? I know that there are a number of people that play with old PS/2 /and/ connect them to mainframes. I would be surprised if someone wouldn't be happy to cover the shipping. (Let me know if you'd like me to (cross)post this on your behalf.) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Sep 25 19:58:19 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2018 00:58:19 +0000 Subject: Cleaning out again Message-ID: Anybody interested in a pair of Tseng Labs ULTRARAM boards? I assume they were expansions for the Tseng Labs Video Cards but, if nothing else, they are loading with 4164's. bill From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Sep 25 20:09:46 2018 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 21:09:46 -0400 Subject: Cleaning out again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Those are for Tsengs Labs Ultrapak monochrome ISA video cards I think. https://isite.tw/2016/08/20/16790/3 -----Original Message----- From: Bill Gunshannon via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2018 8:58 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Cleaning out again Anybody interested in a pair of Tseng Labs ULTRARAM boards? I assume they were expansions for the Tseng Labs Video Cards but, if nothing else, they are loading with 4164's. bill --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Sep 25 20:38:30 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2018 01:38:30 +0000 Subject: Cleaning out again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have no idea.? They are just stuff I collected over the years working at a University.? I was never impressed by Tseng Labs but, like I said, the boards do have a bunch of 6146's on them.? Lot's of old systems used them. I have all the memory chips I will need for the rest of my life stored away already. I have other PC memory expansions with 6146's and 61256's as well, all socketed. bill On 09/25/2018 09:09 PM, TeoZ wrote: > Those are for Tsengs Labs Ultrapak monochrome ISA video cards I think. > > https://isite.tw/2016/08/20/16790/3 > > > -----Original Message----- From: Bill Gunshannon via cctalk Sent: > Tuesday, September 25, 2018 8:58 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Cleaning out again > > > Anybody interested in a pair of Tseng Labs ULTRARAM boards? > > I assume they were expansions for the Tseng Labs Video Cards > > but, if nothing else, they are loading with 4164's. > > > bill > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > From useddec at gmail.com Tue Sep 25 20:59:11 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 20:59:11 -0500 Subject: helping to clean out an estate - a lot of CRAY Message-ID: A friend of mine passed away a few days ago, and I am helping his brother go through boxes of items. He was a research professer at the U of I, but also spent time at CMU, Stanford and other places. What I have had a chance to sort today follows, and there will be updates throughout the week. VIDEOS: Tony Warnock- CRAY RESEARCH There are 3 tapes /day. I have 1-15 over 5 days? Margaret Cahir -Cray Multitasking 6 tapes John Rollwagen, CRAY- chairman and ceo,business, q and a organizational changes- 4 tapes most dated 87, 88 also a tape labeled profile composite TERA MTA report from SDSC 2 from 98, 1 from 99 Cray/ Silicon Graphics- The Power To See UCA Professional Video Tape Plus- CRAY Applications Video Composite 1986 1600 BPI Perfect Benchmarks tape A FEW of the Reports... ACM SIGMETRICS 1994 ACM SIGMETRICS 2000 SPAA ACM 2002 SPAA ACM 2003 THE INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF SUPERCOMPUTER APPLICATIONS AND HIGH PERFORMANCE COMPUTING VOL 1, NUM 1 SPRING 87 through VOL 8, NUM 2, SUMMER 1994 22 volumes, might be missing a few. they could turn up tomorrow CRAY -3 Hardware Reference Manual CRAY Y-MP System Prog Reef Manual Programmer Ref Manual Functional Description Manual CRAY UNICOS LINE EDITOR I have 4-5 more boxes of books i will not get to tonight. There could be another 20 boxes or more still there. I am looking for reasonable offers and good homes. I am not a software guy, my plate is more than full, and I have no place to store it. Thanks, Paul From turing at shaw.ca Tue Sep 25 21:04:25 2018 From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 20:04:25 -0600 (MDT) Subject: helping to clean out an estate - a lot of CRAY In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1038583823.106686932.1537927465913.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Hi Paul: I'm very interested in Cray items... primarily manuals / books, not software or videos; I live in Vancouver, Canada, so shipping won't be super expensive. From: "cctalk" To: "cctalk" , cctech at vax-11.org Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2018 6:59:11 PM Subject: helping to clean out an estate - a lot of CRAY A friend of mine passed away a few days ago, and I am helping his brother go through boxes of items. He was a research professer at the U of I, but also spent time at CMU, Stanford and other places. What I have had a chance to sort today follows, and there will be updates throughout the week. VIDEOS: Tony Warnock- CRAY RESEARCH There are 3 tapes /day. I have 1-15 over 5 days? Margaret Cahir -Cray Multitasking 6 tapes John Rollwagen, CRAY- chairman and ceo,business, q and a organizational changes- 4 tapes most dated 87, 88 also a tape labeled profile composite TERA MTA report from SDSC 2 from 98, 1 from 99 Cray/ Silicon Graphics- The Power To See UCA Professional Video Tape Plus- CRAY Applications Video Composite 1986 1600 BPI Perfect Benchmarks tape A FEW of the Reports... ACM SIGMETRICS 1994 ACM SIGMETRICS 2000 SPAA ACM 2002 SPAA ACM 2003 THE INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF SUPERCOMPUTER APPLICATIONS AND HIGH PERFORMANCE COMPUTING VOL 1, NUM 1 SPRING 87 through VOL 8, NUM 2, SUMMER 1994 22 volumes, might be missing a few. they could turn up tomorrow CRAY -3 Hardware Reference Manual CRAY Y-MP System Prog Reef Manual Programmer Ref Manual Functional Description Manual CRAY UNICOS LINE EDITOR I have 4-5 more boxes of books i will not get to tonight. There could be another 20 boxes or more still there. I am looking for reasonable offers and good homes. I am not a software guy, my plate is more than full, and I have no place to store it. Thanks, Paul From ethan at 757.org Tue Sep 25 21:09:51 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2018 22:09:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: helping to clean out an estate - a lot of CRAY In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Paul, I would be willing to take on the task of converting all the videos to digital format (as high quality as possible) for archive. Could pay shipping, but then would like to pass on the tapes to someone else. - Ethan O'Toole > A friend of mine passed away a few days ago, and I am helping his brother > go through boxes of items. He was a research professer at the U of I, but > also spent time at CMU, Stanford and other places. > > What I have had a chance to sort today follows, and there will be updates > throughout the week. > > VIDEOS: > > Tony Warnock- CRAY RESEARCH There are 3 tapes /day. I have 1-15 over 5 days? > > > Margaret Cahir -Cray Multitasking 6 tapes > > > John Rollwagen, CRAY- chairman and ceo,business, q and a organizational > changes- 4 tapes most dated 87, 88 > also a tape labeled profile composite > > > TERA MTA report from SDSC 2 from 98, 1 from 99 > > Cray/ Silicon Graphics- The Power To See > > UCA Professional Video Tape Plus- CRAY Applications Video Composite 1986 > > 1600 BPI Perfect Benchmarks tape > > > A FEW of the Reports... > > ACM SIGMETRICS 1994 > ACM SIGMETRICS 2000 > SPAA ACM 2002 > SPAA ACM 2003 > > THE INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF SUPERCOMPUTER APPLICATIONS AND HIGH > PERFORMANCE COMPUTING VOL 1, NUM 1 SPRING 87 through VOL 8, NUM 2, > SUMMER 1994 22 volumes, might be missing a few. they could turn up tomorrow > > CRAY -3 Hardware Reference Manual > CRAY Y-MP System Prog Reef Manual > Programmer Ref Manual > Functional Description Manual > CRAY UNICOS LINE EDITOR > > > I have 4-5 more boxes of books i will not get to tonight. There could be > another 20 boxes or more still there. > > I am looking for reasonable offers and good homes. I am not a software guy, > my plate is more than full, and I have no place to store it. > > Thanks, Paul > -- : Ethan O'Toole From dce at skynet.be Wed Sep 26 06:50:12 2018 From: dce at skynet.be (Dominique Carlier) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2018 13:50:12 +0200 Subject: Which Operating System for my DCC-116 E / Entrex 480 / Nixdorf 620 / Data General Nova 1200 clone ? In-Reply-To: References: <008301d38ed5$008598d0$0190ca70$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <7d4da4d6-9c3d-174b-c791-c160942da61e@skynet.be> Hello AJ Thank you for your interest in my project ;-) Unfortunately I was stopped by some technical problems. As I was studying ways to create bootable tapes for my DCC-166 when it started to present troubles. It started with illegible characters (like a bad charset) on the only operational terminal I have. Despite this he continued to boot from the Diablo 44. Then I tried to reinstall from a bootable tape with DIDOS, the operating system of Nixdorf, and there it does not work anymore. Is it because the terminal is not properly working? Is it because there is a problem with the nine track tape? Is the disc of my Diablo 44 altered? Is it all problems are from a PSU problem? I do not know. I cleaned the tape drive, the disk platter, the heads, I clean all connectors (boards), checked what I could at the level of power supply. I still have not found the cause of the breakdown(s). I have not had the time yet but I am going to create a new topic on cctalk about this, unfortunately, I already feel that this troubleshooting will require knowledge beyond my skills. Well, we'll see ;-) Dominique On 25/09/2018 08:01, AJ Palmgren wrote: > Dominique, > > Might you have any updates on your Nixdorf 620 / Entrex 480 system?? I > am quite interested, and it's been a while since I've seen any email > with these keywords here, from you or anyone. > > Someday, it is my hope that I might take a tour of your system in > Belgium, on my next trip to the region, if you would be open to this.? > I am quite fascinated by this rare dinosaur of a system. > > I have begun to archive your work, and everything else I've ever found > about the Entrex 480 systems here: > > http://Entrex480.com > > Like your system restoration, it is a work in progress... > > Best always, > AJ > > > > On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 9:52 AM Dominique Carlier via cctalk > > wrote: > > I understand very well your concerns about sending by mail rare > data on > magnetic media. It's a pity that I live so far away (in Belgium), > even > if I have not finished to configure my machines, at the end I > should be > able to write anything on any media, and concerning magnetic tapes it > will be from 500 to 6250 bpi. > > If one day you find in your stock a communication board for Nova 1200 > that you do not use please note that I am a potential buyer. > > In the meantime, I have to find solutions to reopen all my old > monsters > to the outside world ;-) > > Dominique > > On 16/01/2018 15:19, Jay West via cctalk wrote: > > The 'other Jay' wrote... > > ---------------------------------- > > Diagnostics for DG systems are notoriously difficult to find.? I > have a few, in listing format. > > ---------------------------------- > > I have a full official DG-issued/labeled original diagnostic OS > tape. I do believe it is at 800bpi though. If I had an 800 bpi > drive (everything I have is 1600-6250) I'd image it for everyone. > > > > I have a nice S/130 rack that I was almost finished restoring > till Bruce Ray stopped responding. It's been sitting in my > workshop for years now and I may have to just get rid of it. Next > to it is a pile of about 8 nova 800/1200 cpus (all stuffed with > boards) that I was going to start on next, but was waiting till > the S/130 was done. I'd like to get done with them so I can move > on to other machines that need to be restored... but may have to > just move them out altogether. > > > > I'm wary of just sending the tape through the mail for > imaging.... maybe I can find someone local with an 800 bpi tape > drive and eric smith's tapeutils. > > > > J > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Thanks, > AJ Palmgren > http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck > http://SelmaTrainWreck.blogspot.com > https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283 > https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/ > > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Sep 26 09:19:40 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2018 14:19:40 +0000 Subject: Cleaning out again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here's a list of stuff I need to cull from my collection. Offering it here first.? Make an offer.? Plan on shipping being USPS "If it fits it ships" pricing. MODULE Description??????????????????????????????????????????????? QTY NUMBER M9202????? UNIBUS connector??????????????????????????????????????????? 3 G7273????? NPG AND BUS GRANT CONTINUITY?????????????????? 5 M7556????? Mininum load module +5V 1A -15V ???????????????? 375mA, 11/84 M9060????? LOAD MODULE M9400-YE?? Headers and 240-ohm terminators (18-bit bus only) M9400-YE?? (can be used with M9401 as a Qbus extender) M9400????? (Handle broken model unknown) M9302????? UNIBUS TERM ??????? 2 M9401????? Mirror-image connector used at other end of cable M9401????? to M9400 to join 2 backplanes. M8739????? LESI-to-UNIBUS interface for RC25, TU81 M8061????? RLV12?? RL01/RL02 disk control A026?????? 16-channel, 12-bit Analogue-to-Digital plus A026?????? 2-channel, 12-bit Digital-to-Analogue Converter DECServer 200 MC???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 3 Desktop enclosure for DECServer 200 MC???????????????????????????? 1 There will be more to come.? Other A/D D/A modules.? Eventually may get to the bigger stuff but then it would be pickup only as I would never try to ship a box, not even the desktop ones.? :-) bill From alan at alanlee.org Wed Sep 26 12:05:03 2018 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2018 13:05:03 -0400 Subject: DG/UX install media Message-ID: Does anyone have install media for DG/UX targeted for M88100 CPUs (specifically Aviion)? Any version Thanks, -Alan From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Sep 26 12:06:10 2018 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2018 17:06:10 +0000 Subject: Cleaning out again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Sep 26, 2018, at 9:19 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > > > Here's a list of stuff I need to cull from my collection. > ? > DECServer 200 > MC 3 > Desktop enclosure for DECServer 200 MC 1 ? > There will be more to come. Other A/D D/A modules. Eventually > may get to the bigger stuff but then it would be pickup only as I > would never try to ship a box, not even the desktop ones. :-) All, I?m interested in one of the DECServers but Bill says it?s big enough to be in the ?pick up only? pile. If anyone ends up headed his way to pick up something, I would sure appreciate it if you would grab one of these (and the desktop enclosure, if it?s still available) and drop it at a Pak/n/Ship or equivalent to get it headed my way. I?m in San Antonio, TX 78254. If this looks like it?ll happen, let me know and I can send checks or transfer PayPal to you and Bill respectively for shipping and acquisition costs plus whatever trouble is appropriate. Thanks in advance, - Mark From haskins.sophie at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 12:16:50 2018 From: haskins.sophie at gmail.com (Sophie Haskins) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2018 13:16:50 -0400 Subject: DG/UX install media In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87A908FE-087F-4D00-91C2-4306EC6064D4@gmail.com> I too am very interested in this - I just picked up an AViiON on eBay and I?m excited to restore it but have seen precious little in the way of OS images or manuals and the like Sophie > On Sep 26, 2018, at 1:05 PM, alan--- via cctalk wrote: > > Does anyone have install media for DG/UX targeted for M88100 CPUs > (specifically Aviion)? Any version > > Thanks, > > -Alan From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Sep 26 12:55:50 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2018 13:55:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Cleaning out again Message-ID: <20180926175550.8E6B318C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mark Tapley > I'm interested in one of the DECServers but Bill says it's big > enough to be in the "pick up only" pile. ... drop it at a Pak/n/Ship or > equivalent to get it headed my way. PakMail will go pick stuff up. If several people get together, they could make only one trip to Bill's, which might reduce the cost. Noel From rick at rickmurphy.net Wed Sep 26 20:25:33 2018 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2018 21:25:33 -0400 Subject: RA60 head #4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/25/2018 3:39 PM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > I could use a RL02 or RL01 head as a trade if someone is interested. I have two boxes which if I remember right have a pair of RL01 heads. They were pulled from a RL01 drive that I converted to a RL01 1/2 (swap heads, electronics, etc. to make it into a mostly-RL02.) So, two heads, original boxes, great condition. Boxes say 70-15637-00 and 70-15637-01 part numbers but I'm pretty sure that these are the pulled RL01 heads. Interested? Free for shipping, as I have no use for them.. ??? -Rick From useddec at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 20:30:08 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2018 20:30:08 -0500 Subject: More CRAY, ETC Message-ID: I sorted about 15 or so more of CRAY and other supercomputer items today. Among other things were a bunch ACM Transactions on Mathematical Software and a ton of Parallel Computing booklets. There were probably 20 or more full CRAY folders. Also 6 or so CRAY "gifts", like a key fob, a semi circular blade and other items. He is not sure if he is going to keep them, and I have no idea what kind, if any offer I should make. There are probable 15 boxes of research papers, and he went to conferences almost everywhere. I figure I might get it all moved by Friday, then I'll have to go through it. Paul From harten at injectstar.de Wed Sep 26 11:23:20 2018 From: harten at injectstar.de (Harten) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2018 17:23:20 +0100 Subject: Heathkit H9 schematics wanted Message-ID: <2d21ab3d57.harten@injectstar.de> Hi to all! I'm looking for a good scan of the Heathkit H9 schematics. A set of photos, if the document is to large for scanning, would also work for me. Regards Rolf From martinm at allwest.net Wed Sep 26 12:58:14 2018 From: martinm at allwest.net (Martin Marshall) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2018 11:58:14 -0600 Subject: DG/UX install media In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <014701d455c2$7f858460$7e908d20$@net> Alan, I have an archive of Aviion documentation and DG/UX 4.30 in a bz2 file. The total amount of the archive is about 62 MB. I can upload the archive if you have a ftp site. Martin > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of alan-- > - via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 11:05 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: DG/UX install media > > Does anyone have install media for DG/UX targeted for M88100 CPUs > (specifically Aviion)? Any version > > Thanks, > > -Alan From leec2124 at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 01:11:31 2018 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2018 23:11:31 -0700 Subject: More CRAY, ETC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Paul, When my Dad retired (he was a college professor) I went thru all his journals, papers, collected proceedings etc and sent the ACM a list so they could fill in gaps in their collection, and then offered material to CHM. Two options for the hardcopy materials. Lee Courtney On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 6:30 PM, Paul Anderson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I sorted about 15 or so more of CRAY and other supercomputer items today. > Among other things were a bunch ACM Transactions on Mathematical Software > and a ton of Parallel Computing booklets. > > There were probably 20 or more full CRAY folders. Also 6 or so CRAY > "gifts", like a key fob, a semi circular blade and other items. He is not > sure if he is going to keep them, and I have no idea what kind, if any > offer I should make. > > There are probable 15 boxes of research papers, and he went to conferences > almost everywhere. > > I figure I might get it all moved by Friday, then I'll have to go through > it. > > Paul > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Sep 27 01:17:20 2018 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2018 08:17:20 +0200 Subject: More CRAY, ETC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20180927061719.GN18022@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 08:30:08PM -0500, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: > > There were probably 20 or more full CRAY folders. Also 6 or so CRAY > "gifts", like a key fob, a semi circular blade and other items. He is not > sure if he is going to keep them, and I have no idea what kind, if any > offer I should make. > The smallish lucite paperweights with cray computer models in them fetch between 50-250$ on ebay (maybe more on a sunny day). I'd happily pay 50$ for one. scroll down here for a picture: http://www.chipsetc.com/cray-research.html Not sure about the other things, but anything cray always seem to sell. /P From alan at alanlee.org Thu Sep 27 01:20:22 2018 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2018 02:20:22 -0400 Subject: Vice News September 25th 2018 Message-ID: <104d501d344391adce9d4151a2899cd0@alanlee.org> (cross-posed to cctalk, vcf-midatlantic, and AHCS lists) Imagine my surprise when I was catching up on my daily Vice News diet today - watching today's and yesterday's episodes - when VCF Mid-Atlantics's own Corey Cohen, InfoAge, and a VCFed banner popped up! They did a story on an auction house and verification of an original Apple 1 board up for sale. They called on Corey and his expertise to verify the condition of the board! Way to go Corey! If you want to check out the segment, I've hosted it here: https://www.atlhcs.org/links/Vice_Apple_Auction.ts Enjoy! -Alan H. From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Sep 27 06:09:06 2018 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2018 06:09:06 -0500 Subject: More CRAY, ETC In-Reply-To: <20180927061719.GN18022@Update.UU.SE> References: <20180927061719.GN18022@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20180927111322.46964274B1@mx1.ezwind.net> And then there's the Cray exhibit at the Chippewa Falls Museum: https://cfmit.org/exhibits.html - John From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 06:24:59 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2018 07:24:59 -0400 Subject: Vice News September 25th 2018 In-Reply-To: <104d501d344391adce9d4151a2899cd0@alanlee.org> References: <104d501d344391adce9d4151a2899cd0@alanlee.org> Message-ID: Please send a corrected link On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 2:20 AM alan--- via cctalk wrote: > (cross-posed to cctalk, vcf-midatlantic, and AHCS lists) > > Imagine my surprise when I was catching up on my daily Vice News diet > today - watching today's and yesterday's episodes - when VCF > Mid-Atlantics's own Corey Cohen, InfoAge, and a VCFed banner popped up! > They did a story on an auction house and verification of an original > Apple 1 board up for sale. They called on Corey and his expertise to > verify the condition of the board! > > Way to go Corey! > > If you want to check out the segment, I've hosted it here: > > https://www.atlhcs.org/links/Vice_Apple_Auction.ts > > Enjoy! > > -Alan H. > From alan at alanlee.org Thu Sep 27 07:21:22 2018 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2018 08:21:22 -0400 Subject: Vice News September 25th 2018 In-Reply-To: References: <104d501d344391adce9d4151a2899cd0@alanlee.org> Message-ID: It is a correct link. My web server is returning the wrong mime type for MPEG2 transport stream files (.ts). Sorry didn't have time to fix last night and late for work now. If you get garbage in your browser, right click on link and 'Save As' instead. Apple's single button mouse has spoiled everyone with one-click gratification! :) Sorry, it's my b-day. I'm a little saltier than normal with an age.year++; -Alan On 2018-09-27 07:24, Bill Degnan wrote: > Please send a corrected link > > On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 2:20 AM alan--- via cctalk wrote: > >> (cross-posed to cctalk, vcf-midatlantic, and AHCS lists) >> >> Imagine my surprise when I was catching up on my daily Vice News diet >> today - watching today's and yesterday's episodes - when VCF >> Mid-Atlantics's own Corey Cohen, InfoAge, and a VCFed banner popped up! >> They did a story on an auction house and verification of an original >> Apple 1 board up for sale. They called on Corey and his expertise to >> verify the condition of the board! >> >> Way to go Corey! >> >> If you want to check out the segment, I've hosted it here: >> >> https://www.atlhcs.org/links/Vice_Apple_Auction.ts >> >> Enjoy! >> >> -Alan H. From alan at alanlee.org Thu Sep 27 07:29:54 2018 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2018 08:29:54 -0400 Subject: Vice News September 25th 2018 In-Reply-To: <104d501d344391adce9d4151a2899cd0@alanlee.org> References: <104d501d344391adce9d4151a2899cd0@alanlee.org> Message-ID: <986c2d4ba967008482f15d778640519a@alanlee.org> YouTube link: https://youtu.be/uW6-r0Lms6A -Alan On 2018-09-27 02:20, alan--- via cctalk wrote: > (cross-posed to cctalk, vcf-midatlantic, and AHCS lists) > > Imagine my surprise when I was catching up on my daily Vice News diet > today - watching today's and yesterday's episodes - when VCF > Mid-Atlantics's own Corey Cohen, InfoAge, and a VCFed banner popped up! > They did a story on an auction house and verification of an original > Apple 1 board up for sale. They called on Corey and his expertise to > verify the condition of the board! > > Way to go Corey! > > If you want to check out the segment, I've hosted it here: > > https://www.atlhcs.org/links/Vice_Apple_Auction.ts > > Enjoy! > > -Alan H. From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 08:28:00 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2018 09:28:00 -0400 Subject: Vice News September 25th 2018 In-Reply-To: <986c2d4ba967008482f15d778640519a@alanlee.org> References: <104d501d344391adce9d4151a2899cd0@alanlee.org> <986c2d4ba967008482f15d778640519a@alanlee.org> Message-ID: Neat, well done Corey. b On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 8:30 AM alan--- via cctalk wrote: > > YouTube link: > > https://youtu.be/uW6-r0Lms6A > > -Alan > > On 2018-09-27 02:20, alan--- via cctalk wrote: > > (cross-posed to cctalk, vcf-midatlantic, and AHCS lists) > > > > Imagine my surprise when I was catching up on my daily Vice News diet > > today - watching today's and yesterday's episodes - when VCF > > Mid-Atlantics's own Corey Cohen, InfoAge, and a VCFed banner popped up! > > They did a story on an auction house and verification of an original > > Apple 1 board up for sale. They called on Corey and his expertise to > > verify the condition of the board! > > > > Way to go Corey! > > > > If you want to check out the segment, I've hosted it here: > > > > https://www.atlhcs.org/links/Vice_Apple_Auction.ts > > > > Enjoy! > > > > -Alan H. > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Sep 27 11:01:49 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2018 10:01:49 -0600 Subject: helping to clean out an estate - a lot of CRAY In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0583b990-f59e-754f-ceb8-f7980e669b53@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 09/25/2018 08:09 PM, Ethan via cctalk wrote: > Hello Paul, I would be willing to take on the task of converting all the > videos to digital format (as high quality as possible) for archive. > Could pay shipping, but then would like to pass on the tapes to someone > else. I encourage this and I'll contribute to the cause of digitizing and archiving to make things available to others. (Email me directly when the time comes.) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Sep 27 11:04:28 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2018 10:04:28 -0600 Subject: DG/UX install media In-Reply-To: <014701d455c2$7f858460$7e908d20$@net> References: <014701d455c2$7f858460$7e908d20$@net> Message-ID: On 09/26/2018 11:58 AM, Martin Marshall via cctalk wrote: > Alan, I have an archive of Aviion documentation and DG/UX 4.30 in a > bz2 file. The total amount of the archive is about 62 MB. I can upload > the archive if you have a ftp site. Warren Toomey (BCCed for privacy) with The Unix Heritage Society would probably be interested in a copy of said DG/UX archive. I suspect it's close enough to TUHS's goals to be of interest. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From imp at bsdimp.com Thu Sep 27 11:11:07 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2018 10:11:07 -0600 Subject: DG/UX install media In-Reply-To: References: <014701d455c2$7f858460$7e908d20$@net> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 10:04 AM Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 09/26/2018 11:58 AM, Martin Marshall via cctalk wrote: > > Alan, I have an archive of Aviion documentation and DG/UX 4.30 in a > > bz2 file. The total amount of the archive is about 62 MB. I can upload > > the archive if you have a ftp site. > > Warren Toomey (BCCed for privacy) with The Unix Heritage Society would > probably be interested in a copy of said DG/UX archive. I suspect it's > close enough to TUHS's goals to be of interest. > He's always interested in *ANY* unix distribution he doesn't already have. His goal is their preservation first. You can't argue about whether or not you have the rights to distribute something that doesn't exist, so he's making it possible to have that argument :) Warner From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Sep 27 11:38:50 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2018 10:38:50 -0600 Subject: DG/UX install media In-Reply-To: References: <014701d455c2$7f858460$7e908d20$@net> Message-ID: <8432f5dc-1e59-b858-f77c-24c1ccf1b7b7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 09/27/2018 10:11 AM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > He's always interested in *ANY* unix distribution he doesn't already have. > His goal is their preservation first. You can't argue about whether > or not you have the rights to distribute something that doesn't exist, > so he's making it possible to have that argument :) Agreed. I'm also fairly certain that Warren / TUHS has software that he doesn't make available because of questions about the legality. He's simply holding onto a copy of and preserving it for when the legality question is asked and / or the answer changes. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From Bruce at Wild-Hare.com Thu Sep 27 11:49:54 2018 From: Bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2018 10:49:54 -0600 Subject: DG/UX install media In-Reply-To: <8432f5dc-1e59-b858-f77c-24c1ccf1b7b7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <014701d455c2$7f858460$7e908d20$@net> <8432f5dc-1e59-b858-f77c-24c1ccf1b7b7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <18d6084b-96be-fe86-f727-5a8421fd06f7@Wild-Hare.com> AViiON Aficionatos - Resolution of questions regarding DG/UX software title, licensing and availability will be announced next month at the Nova-At-50.org conference. Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. Boulder, Colorado USA bkr at WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org On 9/27/2018 10:38 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 09/27/2018 10:11 AM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: >> He's always interested in *ANY* unix distribution he doesn't already >> have. His goal is their preservation first. You can't argue about >> whether or not you have the rights to distribute something that >> doesn't exist, so he's making it possible to have that argument :) > > Agreed. > > I'm also fairly certain that Warren / TUHS has software that he doesn't > make available because of questions about the legality.? He's simply > holding onto a copy of and preserving it for when the legality question > is asked and / or the answer changes. > > > From shadoooo at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 12:54:42 2018 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2018 19:54:42 +0200 Subject: DG/UX install media In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, I'm very interested in any media / documentation for Aviion machines too (I have two of them). Bruce: nice to hear from you! >From your affirmation, I suspect there will be a very happy ending! Any good news also for older OS for Nova and Eclipse (DOS, RDOS, AOS)? Thanks Andrea From gerardcjat at free.fr Thu Sep 27 07:35:50 2018 From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2018 14:35:50 +0200 Subject: HP 9885M x 3 FS on Ebay Message-ID: <66F88A95285540FD8E49FE6DCCD3523E@medion> lot of 3 x HP9885 M ( 8 " drive, Master ) cosmetic so so, power on, offer(s) accepted https://www.ebay.fr/itm/232920751693?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&fromMakeTrack=true Any interest ?? Not affiliated etc, etc .... From shadoooo at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 14:43:57 2018 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2018 21:43:57 +0200 Subject: Cleaning out again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, I'm interested in the M8739. I sent you an email. Thanks Andrea From imp at bsdimp.com Thu Sep 27 21:10:28 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2018 20:10:28 -0600 Subject: DG/UX install media In-Reply-To: <8432f5dc-1e59-b858-f77c-24c1ccf1b7b7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <014701d455c2$7f858460$7e908d20$@net> <8432f5dc-1e59-b858-f77c-24c1ccf1b7b7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 27, 2018, 10:38 AM Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 09/27/2018 10:11 AM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > > He's always interested in *ANY* unix distribution he doesn't already > have. > > His goal is their preservation first. You can't argue about whether > > or not you have the rights to distribute something that doesn't exist, > > so he's making it possible to have that argument :) > > Agreed. > > I'm also fairly certain that Warren / TUHS has software that he doesn't > make available because of questions about the legality. He's simply > holding onto a copy of and preserving it for when the legality question > is asked and / or the answer changes. > Correct. He has s larger collection of artifacts than he makes available generally. Warner > From useddec at gmail.com Fri Sep 28 01:01:13 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 01:01:13 -0500 Subject: helping to clean out an estate - a lot of CRAY In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here is the update: When I returned from VCFMW, I took my time emptying my minivan. It was mostly empty empty when I learned of my friends death. A mutual friend put me in touch with his brother because I was interested in some photography equipment he had talked about selling me earlier. When I got there and he found out I was into computers, I offered to buy items from him. I have removed THREE vans loads, and I probably have THREE MORE to go. I sort (computer/non-computer) and load all afternoon, unload and sort all night. I have sorted boxes of CRAY, all kinds of conference and trade show material, monthly, quarterly, etc periodicals, and 10 or so boxes fill of memos, research papers, sales literature, benchmarks, and grant proposals. There are papers, etc. there from most major universities, government agencies including Aragon natl labs, Los Alomos, CERN, ETC. Basically, it could take months to go through everything. I would like to got the CRAY items that I have found so far ( I look through all the boxes, but might have missed some) which are now about 40 three ring binders and 4 boxes of packets and small items first. Also the periodicals that are sorted would be nice to get out of my way. The more you want, the quicker I can get it processed. Smaller lots might take longer. Feel free to ask questions or make requests. I'm sorting as quickly as I can. I appreciate the multiple offers to digitize the tapes. I will try to get back to everyone next week. Maybe split the load? Looking for ideas here. My only rule is both museums get a copy and post it for public use. I do have a few requests for some of the original tapes. Thanks, Paul On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 8:59 PM Paul Anderson wrote: > A friend of mine passed away a few days ago, and I am helping his brother > go through boxes of items. He was a research professer at the U of I, but > also spent time at CMU, Stanford and other places. > > What I have had a chance to sort today follows, and there will be updates > throughout the week. > > VIDEOS: > > Tony Warnock- CRAY RESEARCH There are 3 tapes /day. I have 1-15 over 5 > days? > > > Margaret Cahir -Cray Multitasking 6 tapes > > > John Rollwagen, CRAY- chairman and ceo,business, q and a organizational > changes- 4 tapes most dated 87, 88 > also a tape labeled profile composite > > > TERA MTA report from SDSC 2 from 98, 1 from 99 > > Cray/ Silicon Graphics- The Power To See > > UCA Professional Video Tape Plus- CRAY Applications Video Composite 1986 > > 1600 BPI Perfect Benchmarks tape > > > A FEW of the Reports... > > ACM SIGMETRICS 1994 > ACM SIGMETRICS 2000 > SPAA ACM 2002 > SPAA ACM 2003 > > THE INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF SUPERCOMPUTER APPLICATIONS AND HIGH > PERFORMANCE COMPUTING VOL 1, NUM 1 SPRING 87 through VOL 8, NUM 2, > SUMMER 1994 22 volumes, might be missing a few. they could turn up tomorrow > > CRAY -3 Hardware Reference Manual > CRAY Y-MP System Prog Reef Manual > Programmer Ref Manual > Functional Description Manual > CRAY UNICOS LINE EDITOR > > > I have 4-5 more boxes of books i will not get to tonight. There could be > another 20 boxes or more still there. > > I am looking for reasonable offers and good homes. I am not a software > guy, my plate is more than full, and I have no place to store it. > > Thanks, Paul > > > > > > > > From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Fri Sep 28 07:49:33 2018 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 07:49:33 -0500 Subject: IBM Z196 Enterprise Mainframe Computer on GovPlanet Message-ID: I'm a DEC guy so I don't know anything about the IBM world, but this is going up for auction on GovPlanet.com Location is Richmond, VA Seller: Commonwealth of Virginia, Dept. of General Services IBM Z196 Enterprise Mainframe Computer Mips:1280;MSU:160; Processors: 6 CP + 2 zIIPs; Storage: 32,768 meg HSA Size-=16 GB; FICON express8 channels= 24; ESCON channels= 36; CTC/CNC Channels= 8 single mode ?Internal Coupling channels= 4; OSA Express3= 20; Crypto Express3 cards= 2; Serial Number= 1D0E7 Bidder responsible for all loading and handling. Site does not have staff to assist with removing this lot.****Site does not ship**** Please contact Mike Shaffer at 804-297-2494 or e-mail mike.shaffer at vita.virginia.gov for inspection appointments or more information. Hours are by appointment only. Appointments may be scheduled Mon - Fri excluding holidays. All sales as is where is. No warranties or guarantees. Bidder to inspect in person to confirm condition Just in case anyone is interested. -- John H. Reinhardt From carlojpisani at gmail.com Fri Sep 28 09:20:48 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 16:20:48 +0200 Subject: ImageCraft ICC11 v5 or v6 ? In-Reply-To: <87A908FE-087F-4D00-91C2-4306EC6064D4@gmail.com> References: <87A908FE-087F-4D00-91C2-4306EC6064D4@gmail.com> Message-ID: hi does anyone happen to have ImageCraft ICC11 v5 or v6? I can't find it, and it's an dead abandoned product =( From ethan at 757.org Fri Sep 28 10:13:31 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 11:13:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: helping to clean out an estate - a lot of CRAY In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I appreciate the multiple offers to digitize the tapes. I will try to get > back to everyone next week. Maybe split the load? Looking for ideas here. > My only rule is both museums get a copy and post it for public use. I do > have a few requests for some of the original tapes. I was one of the people that offered. I have pro decks, Composite + SDI converter, audio processors for volume maximization on spoken content, and a Blackmagic ATEM system for SDI to H264 conversion. Colo host and 60TB of disk at home, along with a 500TB LTO-5 library. My goal is just to digitize the tapes, get the files to whomever wants them (plus archive.org), and then the tapes go to some collector that wants to hold onto the originals. I don't have physical room to store the tapes long term. I have archived a lot of laser show content recently that is digital data stored on 3/4" umatic, Beta, and SVHS ADAT format. I've found that pro tapes have help up well but consumer tapes less so. -- : Ethan O'Toole From ethan at 757.org Fri Sep 28 10:14:53 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 11:14:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wanted: LTO-5 tapes (used?) Message-ID: Looking for used LTO-5 tapes that I can erase and add to my library at home for backing up spinning disk archives. I can use LTO-4 as well but 5 gives the most bang for buck. HMU - Ethan -- : Ethan O'Toole From marcogb at xs4all.nl Fri Sep 28 10:46:09 2018 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 17:46:09 +0200 Subject: Wanted: LTO-5 tapes (used?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <95c632ab-74f4-b5b5-c521-fc0f0d5b2851@xs4all.nl> Op 28-sep.-2018 om 17:14 schreef Ethan via cctalk: > Looking for used LTO-5 tapes that I can erase and add to my library at > home for backing up spinning disk archives. I can use LTO-4 as well > but 5 gives the most bang for buck. Would LTO-3 tapes possibly interest you, too?? I have a huge pile, both new and used.? (Also a Quantum U320 HH drive.)? ?- MG? From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Sep 28 16:59:10 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 15:59:10 -0600 Subject: Wanted: LTO-5 tapes (used?) In-Reply-To: <95c632ab-74f4-b5b5-c521-fc0f0d5b2851@xs4all.nl> References: <95c632ab-74f4-b5b5-c521-fc0f0d5b2851@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <21e69c92-81fb-35b0-bf85-01e9cba94665@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 09/28/2018 09:46 AM, MG via cctalk wrote: > Would LTO-3 tapes possibly interest you, too? I have a huge pile, > both new and used. (Also a Quantum U320 HH drive.) If Ethan doesn't want them.... I'm morbidly curious what you would want for a drive and some tapes. Also, where you / they are at so that I can guestimate shipping. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org Fri Sep 28 17:14:38 2018 From: ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org (Andrew Luke Nesbit) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 23:14:38 +0100 Subject: Wanted: LTO-5 tapes (used?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 28/09/2018 16:14, Ethan via cctalk wrote: > Looking for used LTO-5 tapes that I can erase and add to my library > at home for backing up spinning disk archives. I'm designing and implementing a backup regime according to a 3-2-1 strategy. I've never used tape before but LTO-5 was recommended to me as being hands-down the best option for long-term backup or archival storage. > I can use LTO-4 as well but 5 gives the most bang for buck. LTO-5 has been recommended to me a few times, I didn't ask too many questions. I thought it would be better to learn more about what it is, and about tape backup and archiving in general so that I could contextualize my questions and understanding better. As it happens, I'm now seriously looking into tape. Off the top of my head I imagine the following things to be the potential attractions of LTO-5: - Is LTO-5 somewhat of the standard by which other LTO tape systems are judged? - Is bang for the buck the primary attraction of LTO-5? - Is LTO-5 the best option when a priority is to use open hardware and open source drivers to interface the tape drive to the host? I did some research and got the impression that HP LTO-5 Ultrium RW 3 TB cartridges are more-or-less the standard when it comes to the actual tapes. >From my perspective, 3 TB doesn't seem like a huge amount of storage. Especially when, for example, a 12-disk array of 8-10 GB HDD's is hardly uncommon. Am I completely misinterpreting the way that tapes are supposed to be used when making backups or archiving such an array? Obviously I'm not going implement an intricate differential or incremental backup or archiving solution until I've got full backups working properly. Comments and opinions are well appreciated. Andrew -- OpenPGP key: EB28 0338 28B7 19DA DAB0 B193 D21D 996E 883B E5B9 From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Sep 28 18:11:26 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 17:11:26 -0600 Subject: Wanted: LTO-5 tapes (used?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4e23b10f-f902-64b3-c339-5aa86edc5a38@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 09/28/2018 04:14 PM, Andrew Luke Nesbit via cctalk wrote: > I'm designing and implementing a backup regime according to a 3-2-1 > strategy. I've never used tape before but LTO-5 was recommended to me as > being hands-down the best option for long-term backup or archival storage. I know a number of people that use LTO, some of whom use LTO-5. > LTO-5 has been recommended to me a few times, I didn't ask too many > questions. I thought it would be better to learn more about what it > is, and about tape backup and archiving in general so that I could > contextualize my questions and understanding better. Fair enough. > As it happens, I'm now seriously looking into tape. Off the top of > my head I imagine the following things to be the potential attractions > of LTO-5: > > - Is LTO-5 somewhat of the standard by which other LTO tape systems > are judged? LTO is a type of tape. The 5 vs 4 vs 3, is the generation. So LTO-5 is the fifth generation of LTO tape. Newer generations typically hold more data and / or are faster to access. Benefits of the evolution of the technology. > - Is bang for the buck the primary attraction of LTO-5? "bang for the buck" is subjective. Are you talking raw capacity? Raw Read / Write speed? Seek time? What? I'm guessing that it's better $ per byte. > - Is LTO-5 the best option when a priority is to use open hardware > and open source drivers to interface the tape drive to the host? I'm probably not qualified to answer that. It's my understanding that many manufacturers make LTO drives (of varying generations) with varying types of interfaces. I'm guessing that (some version of) SCSI and / or Fibre Channel are the most common interfaces. With the former being directly attached to a host and the latter being attacked to a SAN that can be accessed by multiple hosts. > I did some research and got the impression that HP LTO-5 Ultrium RW > 3 TB cartridges are more-or-less the standard when it comes to the > actual tapes. It's important to know if you're looking at uncompressed / native / raw capacity. Many drives and / or backup applications will (try to) compress data before it's written to tape. It's not uncommon to see some claims of up to 2:1 compression ratios. You might get this with text. I doubt binary data will get it. Your mileage may vary. > From my perspective, 3 TB doesn't seem like a huge amount of storage. > Especially when, for example, a 12-disk array of 8-10 GB HDD's is > hardly uncommon. Am I completely misinterpreting the way that tapes > are supposed to be used when making backups or archiving such an array? > Obviously I'm not going implement an intricate differential or incremental > backup or archiving solution until I've got full backups working properly. My experience has been to use some sort of incremental backup strategy. Full backups of the entire data set usually take prohibitively long and can't be done in normal backup windows. (There is an entire sub-industry for optimizations here.) I would recommend you at least learn about the traditional grandfather, father, son backup methodology. An alternate is incremental forever, which does one really big incremental (from zero) and then deltas between each backup run. You probably want to do some reading about how tapes actually store sessions. Specifically, can you continue writing to the tape after you finish a backup? Can the next backup start writing to the same tape after the point that the first backup stopped at? Or do you end up wasting tape. > Comments and opinions are well appreciated. I'd suggest you look into something that can manage backups for you. It is possible to do it yourself, with something like tar, but you will be doing a lot of manual effort. That being said, I have rolled my own backups using tar and the raw SCSI tape device. But I've been told I'm a masochist. ?\_(?)_/? -- Grant. . . . unix || die From ethan at 757.org Fri Sep 28 18:44:34 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2018 19:44:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wanted: LTO-5 tapes (used?) In-Reply-To: <21e69c92-81fb-35b0-bf85-01e9cba94665@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <95c632ab-74f4-b5b5-c521-fc0f0d5b2851@xs4all.nl> <21e69c92-81fb-35b0-bf85-01e9cba94665@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: > If Ethan doesn't want them.... > I'm morbidly curious what you would want for a drive and some tapes. > Also, where you / they are at so that I can guestimate shipping. I am after LTO-5 as that is what my best drives are (untested of course, and they came from trash.. how bad could it end?) Library after I got the LEDs installed. Need to get a dedicated power supply for them: https://imgur.com/UDqMQq7 I've got it down on one power supply, and it can run on 1 PS with two drives and the logic board. No fibre channel switches or any of that. Backing up the archives of older stuff on less older stuff. -- : Ethan O'Toole From rtomek at ceti.pl Fri Sep 28 19:33:18 2018 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2018 02:33:18 +0200 Subject: What platform can run m68k COFF binaries? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20180929003318.GA24164@tau1.ceti.pl> On Wed, Sep 05, 2018 at 03:39:20PM -0400, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > Hi, All, > > I have a backup of some old code that I thought came from a Sun3 > machine, and indeed, there _are_ binaries on there, in a directory > 'sun' that _do_ run on a Sun3, verified under emulation with "tme". > > The part that puzzles me is the collection of object files and > binaries in the directory above that. 'file' tells me that they are > "m68k COFF" files. From what I've read so far, COFF binaries are from [...] > I have a lot of experience with UNIX but my thinnest amount is in the > m68k arena (mostly some dabbling on Sun3 workstations and a > Perkin-Elmer 7350). Thanks for any pointers or tips. > > -ethan A bit late to the party, but perhaps you could get something from strings: $ strings /bin/tar | less /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 ,crS >gUa librt.so.1 __gmon_start__ _Jv_RegisterClasses clock_gettime libc.so.6 (... and so on, but some of this crap might be useful for your goal...) I guess strings is rather easy to write in C, if you do not have it. Or maybe even could be concocted using a bunch of shell and pipes. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From marcogb at xs4all.nl Fri Sep 28 17:25:23 2018 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2018 00:25:23 +0200 Subject: Wanted: LTO-5 tapes (used?) In-Reply-To: <21e69c92-81fb-35b0-bf85-01e9cba94665@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <95c632ab-74f4-b5b5-c521-fc0f0d5b2851@xs4all.nl> <21e69c92-81fb-35b0-bf85-01e9cba94665@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <9c8db1c5-1b15-3ada-0780-0e2bb4aef9b5@xs4all.nl> Op 28-sep.-2018 om 23:59 schreef Grant Taylor via cctalk: > If Ethan doesn't want them.... He told me that he can't use them with his current drives, so all is available.? > I'm morbidly curious what you would want for a drive and some tapes. Not sure about current asking prices, but based on what I paid for the drive at the time and the usual second-hand reductions, would something like EUR 80 for the drive (EUR 10 with internal SCSI flatcable included), EUR 30 per new HP tape, EUR 20 per new non-HP (read: other vendor than HP), EUR 15 per used HP tape, EUR 10 per used non-HP and volume discounts based on the quantities?? > Also, where you / they are at so that I can guestimate shipping. The Netherlands.? I assume you're in the US?? You can look up shipping rates on the PostNL website (also available in English), or I can do it for you.? (Especially once I know what you're interested in.)? ?- MG? From nico at farumdata.dk Sat Sep 29 03:56:31 2018 From: nico at farumdata.dk (nico at farumdata.dk) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2018 10:56:31 +0200 Subject: Wanted: LTO-5 tapes (used?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <71b93ec24c72abd04737e908bb2d04e5@farumdata.dk> Ethan via cctalk skrev den 2018-09-28 17:14: > Looking for used LTO-5 tapes that I can erase and add to my library at > home for backing up spinning disk archives. I can use LTO-4 as well > but 5 gives the most bang for buck. > > HMU > > - Ethan > > -- > : Ethan O'Toole Hi Ethan I think I have some new tapes at home, but can't check right now. I'll contact you monday or tuesday /Nico (Denmark) From cube1 at charter.net Sat Sep 29 11:16:40 2018 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2018 11:16:40 -0500 Subject: Manual for Documation TM200 punched card reader In-Reply-To: <217b0b61-3984-55d6-be75-35740db2bf21@charter.net> References: <008501d451b5$50d6c590$f28450b0$@emailtoilet.com> <3.0.6.32.20180923003430.0101b810@mail.optusnet.com.au> <217b0b61-3984-55d6-be75-35740db2bf21@charter.net> Message-ID: The information on my Documation card reader interface have now been uploaded, and is available at: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/13KyRN4NuHIlTlBhoHiWZWmIfLwQbP5jn?usp=sharing On 9/24/2018 5:58 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > FYI, I have a design for a RS-232 interface to the Documation M series > interface, based on a PIC 16F877. The design is in turn based on one > that does not use a PIC, that Al Kossow shared with me some time back - > and is designed to work with the same software on the PC side (at least > if I recall correctly - I did this back in 2013). [I seem to recall > that when I was testing it, I just used a terminal emulator of some > sort, so PC side software would be easy.] > > The board design is in KiCAD. The "firmware" for the PIC is in C, > developed using MPLABX (freely available). > > So, if anyone wants the materials, say so, and I will share a link, and > scan in my interface connector pinouts, etc., and put up a folder on my > Google Drive. > > I also still have *ONE* *UNPOPULATED* board (approx. 4.25" x 2.5") that > I would be willing to part with for $10 US + S&H. As I recall, there is > one missing pull-up resistor that is wrong on the schematic (and thus > missing on the board, too), from pin 1 of the PIC to VCC, and is easy to > deal with, and that the LED labels on the silk screen are flipped around > on the board vs. the schematic [which can be dealt with easily in > software, so that the LEDs match the silk screen.] The design includes > an in-circuit programming header. > > Unfortunately, the pinouts I used for the 40 pin connector on the PC > board to the card reader are NOT the same as what the Computer History > Museum has, and it makes wiring the cable a bit of a pain, because the > signal and signal return lines are not next to each other on the > connector, but should be so using a twisted pair cable. > > JRJ > > > From sieler at allegro.com Sat Sep 29 15:21:57 2018 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2018 13:21:57 -0700 Subject: Dr. Ken Bowles passed away Message-ID: Hi, I missed hearing about this, but Dr. Ken Bowles (father of UCSD Pascal) passed away Aug 15 of this year. http://jacobsschool.ucsd.edu/news/news_releases/release.sfe?id=2621 The story misses his important work on mainframes, including getting vector mode processing added to the Burroughs B6500 (which then became the B6700). Stan From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Sat Sep 29 19:45:15 2018 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2018 20:45:15 -0400 Subject: Manual for Documation TM200 punched card reader In-Reply-To: References: <008501d451b5$50d6c590$f28450b0$@emailtoilet.com> <3.0.6.32.20180923003430.0101b810@mail.optusnet.com.au> <217b0b61-3984-55d6-be75-35740db2bf21@charter.net> Message-ID: Thanks! Seeing your wiring makes me realize what I was doing wrong with my attempt. On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 12:16 PM Jay Jaeger via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > The information on my Documation card reader interface have now been > uploaded, and is available at: > > > https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/13KyRN4NuHIlTlBhoHiWZWmIfLwQbP5jn?usp=sharing > > On 9/24/2018 5:58 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > > FYI, I have a design for a RS-232 interface to the Documation M series > > interface, based on a PIC 16F877. The design is in turn based on one > > that does not use a PIC, that Al Kossow shared with me some time back - > > and is designed to work with the same software on the PC side (at least > > if I recall correctly - I did this back in 2013). [I seem to recall > > that when I was testing it, I just used a terminal emulator of some > > sort, so PC side software would be easy.] > > > > The board design is in KiCAD. The "firmware" for the PIC is in C, > > developed using MPLABX (freely available). > > > > So, if anyone wants the materials, say so, and I will share a link, and > > scan in my interface connector pinouts, etc., and put up a folder on my > > Google Drive. > > > > I also still have *ONE* *UNPOPULATED* board (approx. 4.25" x 2.5") that > > I would be willing to part with for $10 US + S&H. As I recall, there is > > one missing pull-up resistor that is wrong on the schematic (and thus > > missing on the board, too), from pin 1 of the PIC to VCC, and is easy to > > deal with, and that the LED labels on the silk screen are flipped around > > on the board vs. the schematic [which can be dealt with easily in > > software, so that the LEDs match the silk screen.] The design includes > > an in-circuit programming header. > > > > Unfortunately, the pinouts I used for the 40 pin connector on the PC > > board to the card reader are NOT the same as what the Computer History > > Museum has, and it makes wiring the cable a bit of a pain, because the > > signal and signal return lines are not next to each other on the > > connector, but should be so using a twisted pair cable. > > > > JRJ > > > > > > > From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Sep 29 19:47:31 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2018 17:47:31 -0700 Subject: ISO: A&J Micro Drive System 100 docs/software Message-ID: Hey all -- Picked up an A&J System 100 drive -- this is an Exatron Stringy Floppy with a serial interface, meant to be used with the TRS-80 Model 100/102. I found what purports to be software for it (see here: http://www.club100.org/library/libups.html) but I haven't found any documentation. It would be interesting to know what the protocol is for talking to this thing. Anyone have any info? Thanks, Josh From marcogb at xs4all.nl Sat Sep 29 13:06:50 2018 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2018 20:06:50 +0200 Subject: Wanted: LTO-5 tapes (used?) In-Reply-To: <9c8db1c5-1b15-3ada-0780-0e2bb4aef9b5@xs4all.nl> References: <95c632ab-74f4-b5b5-c521-fc0f0d5b2851@xs4all.nl> <21e69c92-81fb-35b0-bf85-01e9cba94665@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <9c8db1c5-1b15-3ada-0780-0e2bb4aef9b5@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5b1f0666-73e8-c4b2-605f-7d49d614e5fe@xs4all.nl> On 29-Sep.-2018 at 00:25 I wrote via cctalk:? > Not sure about current asking prices, but based on what I paid for the > drive at the time and the usual second-hand reductions, would something > like EUR 80 for the drive (EUR 10 with internal SCSI flatcable > included), EUR 30 per new HP tape, EUR 20 per new non-HP (read: other > vendor than HP), EUR 15 per used HP tape, EUR 10 per used non-HP and > volume discounts based on the quantities? With regard to the above: I meant to ask (and forgot to add) if it's reasonable.? I'm also open to counter-offers.? ?- MG? From microtechdart at gmail.com Sun Sep 30 04:16:56 2018 From: microtechdart at gmail.com (AJ Palmgren) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2018 02:16:56 -0700 Subject: Which Operating System for my DCC-116 E / Entrex 480 / Nixdorf 620 / Data General Nova 1200 clone ? In-Reply-To: <7d4da4d6-9c3d-174b-c791-c160942da61e@skynet.be> References: <008301d38ed5$008598d0$0190ca70$@classiccmp.org> <7d4da4d6-9c3d-174b-c791-c160942da61e@skynet.be> Message-ID: Well, Dominique, I would encourage you to not give up. You have the only functional version of this system that anyone has ever reported over the Internet in recent times (as far as I've found), and I would love to help in any way that I can. I also am quite busy, as are you, but this system has come to hold a important place in my desire to preserve vintage equipment. The complexity of the situation may be beyond my current skill set as well, however, I'd be very happy to contribute to the diagnosis in any way I can. I've come up with some pretty "unorthodox" methods, over the past few years, of reverse-engineering the way older vintage computer components talk to each other,and one of those tricks just might be the key to unlocking this mystery. Please keep us posted here. There are many here far more knowledgeable and experienced than I, with this vintage of equipment. It's so fascinating! Best always, AJ On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 4:50 AM Dominique Carlier wrote: > Hello AJ > > Thank you for your interest in my project ;-) > > Unfortunately I was stopped by some technical problems. > > As I was studying ways to create bootable tapes for my DCC-166 when it > started to present troubles. > > It started with illegible characters (like a bad charset) on the only > operational terminal I have. Despite this he continued to boot from the > Diablo 44. > Then I tried to reinstall from a bootable tape with DIDOS, the operating > system of Nixdorf, and there it does not work anymore. > > Is it because the terminal is not properly working? Is it because there is > a problem with the nine track tape? Is the disc of my Diablo 44 altered? Is > it all problems are from a PSU problem? I do not know. > I cleaned the tape drive, the disk platter, the heads, I clean all > connectors (boards), checked what I could at the level of power supply. I > still have not found the cause of the breakdown(s). > > I have not had the time yet but I am going to create a new topic on cctalk > about this, unfortunately, I already feel that this troubleshooting will > require knowledge beyond my skills. > > Well, we'll see ;-) > > Dominique > > On 25/09/2018 08:01, AJ Palmgren wrote: > > Dominique, > > Might you have any updates on your Nixdorf 620 / Entrex 480 system? I am > quite interested, and it's been a while since I've seen any email with > these keywords here, from you or anyone. > > Someday, it is my hope that I might take a tour of your system in Belgium, > on my next trip to the region, if you would be open to this. I am quite > fascinated by this rare dinosaur of a system. > > I have begun to archive your work, and everything else I've ever found > about the Entrex 480 systems here: > > http://Entrex480.com > > Like your system restoration, it is a work in progress... > > Best always, > AJ > > > > On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 9:52 AM Dominique Carlier via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> I understand very well your concerns about sending by mail rare data on >> magnetic media. It's a pity that I live so far away (in Belgium), even >> if I have not finished to configure my machines, at the end I should be >> able to write anything on any media, and concerning magnetic tapes it >> will be from 500 to 6250 bpi. >> >> If one day you find in your stock a communication board for Nova 1200 >> that you do not use please note that I am a potential buyer. >> >> In the meantime, I have to find solutions to reopen all my old monsters >> to the outside world ;-) >> >> Dominique >> >> On 16/01/2018 15:19, Jay West via cctalk wrote: >> > The 'other Jay' wrote... >> > ---------------------------------- >> > Diagnostics for DG systems are notoriously difficult to find. I have a >> few, in listing format. >> > ---------------------------------- >> > I have a full official DG-issued/labeled original diagnostic OS tape. I >> do believe it is at 800bpi though. If I had an 800 bpi drive (everything I >> have is 1600-6250) I'd image it for everyone. >> > >> > I have a nice S/130 rack that I was almost finished restoring till >> Bruce Ray stopped responding. It's been sitting in my workshop for years >> now and I may have to just get rid of it. Next to it is a pile of about 8 >> nova 800/1200 cpus (all stuffed with boards) that I was going to start on >> next, but was waiting till the S/130 was done. I'd like to get done with >> them so I can move on to other machines that need to be restored... but may >> have to just move them out altogether. >> > >> > I'm wary of just sending the tape through the mail for imaging.... >> maybe I can find someone local with an 800 bpi tape drive and eric smith's >> tapeutils. >> > >> > J >> > >> > >> > >> >> > > -- > > Thanks, > AJ Palmgren > http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck > http://SelmaTrainWreck.blogspot.com > https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283 > https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/ > > > > -- Thanks, AJ Palmgren http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck http://SelmaTrainWreck.blogspot.com https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283 https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Sep 30 14:02:17 2018 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2018 14:02:17 -0500 Subject: pdp-11/34 extravaganza Message-ID: <01be01d458f0$1b568f80$5203ae80$@classiccmp.org> I was contacted about an 11/34 system available. It appears to be not just a system, nor just a system in a rack, but pretty much a full installation and all the trimmings (printers, terminals, documentation, media, etc.). I am pretty sure some of the terminals will invoke interest at the very least ;) Note - the person who has it is looking for a sale. No prices have been discussed, but my impression is they aren't going to let it all go for $50 :) The stuff is located in the Detroit metro area. I am not (nor do I want to be) involved in this transaction in any way. I'm just passing it on. I would prefer to pass it to someone who has a demonstrated ability (and resources) for rescues of this size and type of equipment. All I care about is that the equipment is rescued and by a responsible party. Do not email me expressing interest in just one or two items. I will pass it all to one person - if THEY want to part it out *after the deal* that's fine. I do have a single picture I can forward. If interested email me directly.. Terminals (screen, keyboard, mouse) (1 is custom built) - Quantity: 2 -Tektronix 4012 - Quantity: 1 -Tektronix 4010 - Quantity: 1 - Custom Built Tektronix Printer Terminal with Monitor (keyboard) - Quantity: 1 - Digital VT100 - Quatity: 2 - Digital VT105 Printer Terminal - Quantity: 2 - DEC Writer IV PDP 11/34 (edit by jay - I believe there is only one 11/34, not 4. I could be wrong.) - Quantity: 1 - 11/34A-DH - 115 Volts / 60Hz - Quantity: 1 - 1134A-XE - 120 Volts / 60Hz - Quantity: 1 - 11/34A-YE - 120 Volts / 60Hz - Quantity: 1 - 11/34A DE - 120 Volts / 60Hz Digital RL01 - Quantity: 2 Digital RL02 - Quantity: 2 Digital RX02 - Quantity: 4 - 1 out of the 4 is non-functioning Digital RX01- Quantity: 2 DEC Magnetic Disk Drivers - Quantity: 23 (possibly more) Some are RL01K-DC and some are RL02K-DC One has Fortinet on it IEE Serial Display Quantity: 1 Digital M9202 Quantity: 5 Digital M9741 Quantity: 1 Digital M9312 Quantity: 1 Digital M9302 Quantity: 2 Digital M7850 Quantity: 2 Digital M9301 Quantity: 2 Digital QSC H322 Quantity 1, possibly 2 Various Spare Parts -Printing Paper -Original Printing Ink -INMAC Air Filters -RX02 Replacement Fan -Extra Cable for PDP 11/34 -Moss Memory for PDP 11/34 -Spare Power Supplies -3 cases of documentation for the different components and programs Half Rack with Built In Power Supply Digital 872-A Quantity: 1 Full Rack, Chasf CD3001-99-0141 Quantity: 1