From microtechdart at gmail.com Mon Oct 1 02:11:51 2018 From: microtechdart at gmail.com (AJ Palmgren) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2018 00:11:51 -0700 Subject: Which Operating System for my DCC-116 E / Entrex 480 / Nixdorf 620 / Data General Nova 1200 clone ? In-Reply-To: References: <008301d38ed5$008598d0$0190ca70$@classiccmp.org> <7d4da4d6-9c3d-174b-c791-c160942da61e@skynet.be> Message-ID: Dominique, I just had an idea. May I ask what type/style/pin-configuration of plug is on the back connector of your 1 working terminal? Not that the plug matters as much, but I'm thinking about an easy way to build a quick interface to reverse engineer the protocol (and pinouts/cabling) that these terminals use. Besides, that would be a FASCINATING thing for me to learn about this system, anyway. And I have some diagnostic hardware that I'd like to contribute to this portion, as well. On Sun, Sep 30, 2018 at 2:16 AM AJ Palmgren wrote: > Well, Dominique, I would encourage you to not give up. You have the only > functional version of this system that anyone has ever reported over the > Internet in recent times (as far as I've found), and I would love to help > in any way that I can. > > I also am quite busy, as are you, but this system has come to hold a > important place in my desire to preserve vintage equipment. > > The complexity of the situation may be beyond my current skill set as > well, however, I'd be very happy to contribute to the diagnosis in any way > I can. I've come up with some pretty "unorthodox" methods, over the past > few years, of reverse-engineering the way older vintage computer components > talk to each other,and one of those tricks just might be the key to > unlocking this mystery. > > Please keep us posted here. There are many here far more knowledgeable > and experienced than I, with this vintage of equipment. It's so > fascinating! > > Best always, > AJ > > > > On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 4:50 AM Dominique Carlier wrote: > >> Hello AJ >> >> Thank you for your interest in my project ;-) >> >> Unfortunately I was stopped by some technical problems. >> >> As I was studying ways to create bootable tapes for my DCC-166 when it >> started to present troubles. >> >> It started with illegible characters (like a bad charset) on the only >> operational terminal I have. Despite this he continued to boot from the >> Diablo 44. >> Then I tried to reinstall from a bootable tape with DIDOS, the operating >> system of Nixdorf, and there it does not work anymore. >> >> Is it because the terminal is not properly working? Is it because there >> is a problem with the nine track tape? Is the disc of my Diablo 44 altered? >> Is it all problems are from a PSU problem? I do not know. >> I cleaned the tape drive, the disk platter, the heads, I clean all >> connectors (boards), checked what I could at the level of power supply. I >> still have not found the cause of the breakdown(s). >> >> I have not had the time yet but I am going to create a new topic on >> cctalk about this, unfortunately, I already feel that this troubleshooting >> will require knowledge beyond my skills. >> >> Well, we'll see ;-) >> >> Dominique >> >> On 25/09/2018 08:01, AJ Palmgren wrote: >> >> Dominique, >> >> Might you have any updates on your Nixdorf 620 / Entrex 480 system? I am >> quite interested, and it's been a while since I've seen any email with >> these keywords here, from you or anyone. >> >> Someday, it is my hope that I might take a tour of your system in >> Belgium, on my next trip to the region, if you would be open to this. I am >> quite fascinated by this rare dinosaur of a system. >> >> I have begun to archive your work, and everything else I've ever found >> about the Entrex 480 systems here: >> >> http://Entrex480.com >> >> Like your system restoration, it is a work in progress... >> >> Best always, >> AJ >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 9:52 AM Dominique Carlier via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> I understand very well your concerns about sending by mail rare data on >>> magnetic media. It's a pity that I live so far away (in Belgium), even >>> if I have not finished to configure my machines, at the end I should be >>> able to write anything on any media, and concerning magnetic tapes it >>> will be from 500 to 6250 bpi. >>> >>> If one day you find in your stock a communication board for Nova 1200 >>> that you do not use please note that I am a potential buyer. >>> >>> In the meantime, I have to find solutions to reopen all my old monsters >>> to the outside world ;-) >>> >>> Dominique >>> >>> On 16/01/2018 15:19, Jay West via cctalk wrote: >>> > The 'other Jay' wrote... >>> > ---------------------------------- >>> > Diagnostics for DG systems are notoriously difficult to find. I have >>> a few, in listing format. >>> > ---------------------------------- >>> > I have a full official DG-issued/labeled original diagnostic OS tape. >>> I do believe it is at 800bpi though. If I had an 800 bpi drive (everything >>> I have is 1600-6250) I'd image it for everyone. >>> > >>> > I have a nice S/130 rack that I was almost finished restoring till >>> Bruce Ray stopped responding. It's been sitting in my workshop for years >>> now and I may have to just get rid of it. Next to it is a pile of about 8 >>> nova 800/1200 cpus (all stuffed with boards) that I was going to start on >>> next, but was waiting till the S/130 was done. I'd like to get done with >>> them so I can move on to other machines that need to be restored... but may >>> have to just move them out altogether. >>> > >>> > I'm wary of just sending the tape through the mail for imaging.... >>> maybe I can find someone local with an 800 bpi tape drive and eric smith's >>> tapeutils. >>> > >>> > J >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> Thanks, >> AJ Palmgren >> http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck >> http://SelmaTrainWreck.blogspot.com >> https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283 >> https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/ >> >> >> >> > > -- > > Thanks, > AJ Palmgren > http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck > http://SelmaTrainWreck.blogspot.com > https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283 > https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/ > > > -- Thanks, AJ Palmgren http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck http://SelmaTrainWreck.blogspot.com https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283 https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/ From dce at skynet.be Mon Oct 1 03:21:23 2018 From: dce at skynet.be (Dominique Carlier) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2018 10:21:23 +0200 Subject: Which Operating System for my DCC-116 E / Entrex 480 / Nixdorf 620 / Data General Nova 1200 clone ? In-Reply-To: References: <008301d38ed5$008598d0$0190ca70$@classiccmp.org> <7d4da4d6-9c3d-174b-c791-c160942da61e@skynet.be> Message-ID: <763ba819-d33a-29c8-5894-76bf53ad830b@skynet.be> Hi ! In fact these terminals (named "Data/Scope Keystations") http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/palmgren/terminal_identification.jpg are dedicated and apparently non-configurable, connected through exotic connectors (for which I do not have, of course, the pinout), and using, I think, a synchronous serial type link for data transmission. It is possible to connect 12 terminals on my machine through two boards (multiplexer type). Here is what the connectors looks like http://www.zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/palmgren/connector.jpg These terminals have nothing autonomous, I mean that if I do not proceed to a warm start, or a fresh installation with tape drive via the cold start procedure, the terminals do not display anything at all. There are two empty slots, one is named TTY (slot 3)? and the other COMMO (slot 9). Again I may be wrong but for an asynchronous communication I think the TTY board is required. The board "COMMO" maybe not because - I think - it was only used to communicate with other systems including the IBM 3270. Apparently, the board with witch it should be possible to connect a console terminal (eventually a PC via a standard RS232 serial port) is missing : DG serial port board (DG Model 4007/4010) or equivalent But all new ideas are welcome ;-) Dominique On 1/10/2018 09:11, AJ Palmgren wrote: > Dominique, I just had an idea.? May I ask what > type/style/pin-configuration of plug is on the back connector of your > 1 working terminal? > > Not that the plug matters as much, but I'm thinking about an easy way > to build a quick interface to reverse engineer the protocol (and > pinouts/cabling) that these terminals use. > > Besides, that would be a FASCINATING thing for me to learn about this > system, anyway. > > And I have some diagnostic hardware that I'd like to contribute to > this portion, as well. > > On Sun, Sep 30, 2018 at 2:16 AM AJ Palmgren > wrote: > > Well, Dominique, I would encourage you to not give up.? You have > the only functional version of this system that anyone has ever > reported over the Internet in recent times (as far as I've found), > and I would love to help in any way that I can. > > I also am quite busy, as are you, but this system has come to hold > a important place in my desire to preserve vintage equipment. > > The complexity of the situation may be beyond my current skill set > as well, however, I'd be very happy to contribute to the diagnosis > in any way I can.? I've come up with some pretty "unorthodox" > methods, over the past few years, of reverse-engineering the way > older vintage computer components talk to each other,and one of > those tricks just might be the key to unlocking this mystery. > > Please keep us posted here.? There are many here far more > knowledgeable and experienced than I, with this vintage of > equipment.? It's so fascinating! > > Best always, > AJ > > > > On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 4:50 AM Dominique Carlier > wrote: > > Hello AJ > > Thank you for your interest in my project ;-) > > Unfortunately I was stopped by some technical problems. > > As I was studying ways to create bootable tapes for my DCC-166 > when it started to present troubles. > > It started with illegible characters (like a bad charset) on > the only operational terminal I have. Despite this he > continued to boot from the Diablo 44. > Then I tried to reinstall from a bootable tape with DIDOS, the > operating system of Nixdorf, and there it does not work anymore. > > Is it because the terminal is not properly working? Is it > because there is a problem with the nine track tape? Is the > disc of my Diablo 44 altered? Is it all problems are from a > PSU problem? I do not know. > I cleaned the tape drive, the disk platter, the heads, I clean > all connectors (boards), checked what I could at the level of > power supply. I still have not found the cause of the > breakdown(s). > > I have not had the time yet but I am going to create a new > topic on cctalk about this, unfortunately, I already feel that > this troubleshooting will require knowledge beyond my skills. > > Well, we'll see ;-) > > Dominique > > > On 25/09/2018 08:01, AJ Palmgren wrote: >> Dominique, >> >> Might you have any updates on your Nixdorf 620 / Entrex 480 >> system?? I am quite interested, and it's been a while since >> I've seen any email with these keywords here, from you or anyone. >> >> Someday, it is my hope that I might take a tour of your >> system in Belgium, on my next trip to the region, if you >> would be open to this.? I am quite fascinated by this rare >> dinosaur of a system. >> >> I have begun to archive your work, and everything else I've >> ever found about the Entrex 480 systems here: >> >> http://Entrex480.com >> >> Like your system restoration, it is a work in progress... >> >> Best always, >> AJ >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 9:52 AM Dominique Carlier via cctalk >> > wrote: >> >> I understand very well your concerns about sending by >> mail rare data on >> magnetic media. It's a pity that I live so far away (in >> Belgium), even >> if I have not finished to configure my machines, at the >> end I should be >> able to write anything on any media, and concerning >> magnetic tapes it >> will be from 500 to 6250 bpi. >> >> If one day you find in your stock a communication board >> for Nova 1200 >> that you do not use please note that I am a potential buyer. >> >> In the meantime, I have to find solutions to reopen all >> my old monsters >> to the outside world ;-) >> >> Dominique >> >> On 16/01/2018 15:19, Jay West via cctalk wrote: >> > The 'other Jay' wrote... >> > ---------------------------------- >> > Diagnostics for DG systems are notoriously difficult to >> find.? I have a few, in listing format. >> > ---------------------------------- >> > I have a full official DG-issued/labeled original >> diagnostic OS tape. I do believe it is at 800bpi though. >> If I had an 800 bpi drive (everything I have is >> 1600-6250) I'd image it for everyone. >> > >> > I have a nice S/130 rack that I was almost finished >> restoring till Bruce Ray stopped responding. It's been >> sitting in my workshop for years now and I may have to >> just get rid of it. Next to it is a pile of about 8 nova >> 800/1200 cpus (all stuffed with boards) that I was going >> to start on next, but was waiting till the S/130 was >> done. I'd like to get done with them so I can move on to >> other machines that need to be restored... but may have >> to just move them out altogether. >> > >> > I'm wary of just sending the tape through the mail for >> imaging.... maybe I can find someone local with an 800 >> bpi tape drive and eric smith's tapeutils. >> > >> > J >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Thanks, >> AJ Palmgren >> http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck >> http://SelmaTrainWreck.blogspot.com >> https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283 >> https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/ >> >> > > > > -- > > Thanks, > AJ Palmgren > http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck > http://SelmaTrainWreck.blogspot.com > https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283 > https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/ > > > > > -- > > Thanks, > AJ Palmgren > http://fb.me/SelmaTrainWreck > http://SelmaTrainWreck.blogspot.com > https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100010931314283 > https://www.linkedin.com/in/aj-palmgren-4a085516/ > > From nico at farumdata.dk Mon Oct 1 06:39:42 2018 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2018 13:39:42 +0200 Subject: Wanted: LTO-5 tapes (used?) References: Message-ID: <2C13DC9BB05B427A84F6E18D23D09AFD@notebook> Sorry Ethan, the cassettes I have, are marked HP ultium 200 GB, C7971A. I have 6 or so, plus a cleaning cassette Can you usem them? Regards Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan via cctalk" To: Sent: Friday, September 28, 2018 5:14 PM Subject: Wanted: LTO-5 tapes (used?) > > Looking for used LTO-5 tapes that I can erase and add to my library at > home for backing up spinning disk archives. I can use LTO-4 as well but 5 > gives the most bang for buck. > > HMU > > - Ethan > > -- > : Ethan O'Toole > > -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. SPAMfighter has removed 17436 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen From mazzinia at tin.it Mon Oct 1 08:07:55 2018 From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2018 15:07:55 +0200 Subject: R: Wanted: LTO-5 tapes (used?) In-Reply-To: <2C13DC9BB05B427A84F6E18D23D09AFD@notebook> References: <2C13DC9BB05B427A84F6E18D23D09AFD@notebook> Message-ID: <008401d45987$c5586a70$50093f50$@tin.it> Sorry to intrude, Those are LTO-1 tapes (I do have two for an hp drive I have) -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Nico de Jong via cctalk Inviato: luned? 1 ottobre 2018 13:40 A: ethan at 757.org; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Oggetto: Re: Wanted: LTO-5 tapes (used?) Sorry Ethan, the cassettes I have, are marked HP ultium 200 GB, C7971A. I have 6 or so, plus a cleaning cassette Can you usem them? Regards Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan via cctalk" To: Sent: Friday, September 28, 2018 5:14 PM Subject: Wanted: LTO-5 tapes (used?) > > Looking for used LTO-5 tapes that I can erase and add to my library at > home for backing up spinning disk archives. I can use LTO-4 as well but 5 > gives the most bang for buck. > > HMU > > - Ethan > > -- > : Ethan O'Toole > > -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. SPAMfighter has removed 17436 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen From ethan at 757.org Mon Oct 1 08:29:28 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2018 09:29:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: R: Wanted: LTO-5 tapes (used?) In-Reply-To: <008401d45987$c5586a70$50093f50$@tin.it> References: <2C13DC9BB05B427A84F6E18D23D09AFD@notebook> <008401d45987$c5586a70$50093f50$@tin.it> Message-ID: > Sorry to intrude, > Those are LTO-1 tapes (I do have two for an hp drive I have) No worries, the tapes I am after are LTO-5 / Ultrium-5 -- : Ethan O'Toole From mattislind at gmail.com Mon Oct 1 09:33:47 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2018 16:33:47 +0200 Subject: Source code listings from REDAC PDP-based PCB layout system. Message-ID: I have a set of around 5 to 8 binders with printed source code listings from a PDP-15 system. The listings appear to be from a REDAC SOFTWARE LIMITED PCB CAD system. The name of the software seems to be REDAL 3 MARK 7. There are dates on the listings in the range 74 and 75. https://i.imgur.com/m1ji9uR.jpg https://i.imgur.com/SzaiH78.jpg First of all does anyone has more info on the REDAL software from REDAC? Then secondly is there anyone interested in these binders with listings? I think the quality of printout is good enough to do OCR on. Note that there is no guarantee that these are the complete set of binders with listings. /Mattis From sales at elecplus.com Mon Oct 1 12:23:03 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2018 12:23:03 -0500 Subject: DG/UX install media In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0d3401d459ab$69798bc0$3c6ca340$@com> Did you ask Congruity? SEAN BRADY Operations sbrady at congruity.com Direct: 781-829-0140 | Mobile: 339-788-8080 56 Pembroke Woods Drive | Pembroke, MA 02359 Sean is an old friend of mine; tell him I said hi. He has been doing DG for over 20 years. Cindy -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of alan--- via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 12:05 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: DG/UX install media Does anyone have install media for DG/UX targeted for M88100 CPUs (specifically Aviion)? Any version Thanks, -Alan --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 1 13:46:17 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2018 13:46:17 -0500 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 2:16 PM, Tapley, Mark via cctalk wrote: > I have more desire to own systems to play on than I have space or time. True for most of us, I suspect. > Addressing the former, I have to say my favorite VT-100-alike is a Rainbow. One box (plus monitor plus the dreaded LK-201), three functions in the collection: VT-100 emulation (not perfect but not bad), CPM-80/86 (is that one or two functions?), MS-DOS 3.11b. I have only recently learned of the built-in VT100 emulation. I'm curious how it's "not perfect". > Having a Rainbow has pretty much forestalled any desire to get a ?real? VT-100 for me. I've had real VT-100s (VT-101s, VT102s...) for quite some time, but because of partial compatibility with other systems (RX50s along with memory map differences) I was never big on running a Rainbow. These days, though, I'm interested in them as CP/M boxes more than running DOS, just because it's trivial to set up a white box to run DOS but there aren't that many kinds of CP/M machines after the S-100 era. So a single box that is itself a decent VT-100 and runs CP/M is suddenly worth some desk space. And because it's my focus, the first thing I want to run on any CP/M box is going to be text adventures (Infocom and Scott Adams for certain). -ethan P.S. - and the same line of reasoning has the VT-180 on my radar but I've never seen one go by close enough or cheap enough to jump on. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 1 13:52:32 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2018 13:52:32 -0500 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: References: <21b6f28a-2b21-f398-74e4-8bac0274e06b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1571B7D2-158C-4499-9709-AD59A8A28F04@comcast.net> <9cbf089a-bfdf-98ff-4162-12fd4d23d610@bitsavers.org> <1a36d750-e997-21ab-1a35-bf6167b71eae@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 2:41 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > >> On Sep 7, 2018, at 10:55 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: >> >> TI made a clamshell portable VT220-compatible terminal with an LCD screen, >> the Travelmate LT220. It's very nice, the LCD is high-contrast (but no >> backlight) and it even has a built in 2400bps modem. I believe it can run >> off of a battery as well. It's very handy. >> >> There's a picture of one near the bottom of this page: >> http://ummr.altervista.org/sistemi_x86.htm >> >> - Josh > > That?s an interesting terminal. Totally pointless for me, but it would be cool. I have a Zenith ZFL-181-93 that I treat like the LT220 - it boots to DOS 3.3 off of 3.5" 720K floppy and the only application on it is Kermit. It makes a nice portable terminal that way that if I ever got around to it, I could replace the stack of NiCd C-cells and run off battery power, but it works fine from wall power. I think it would be cool to have an LCD dumb terminal but an old 8088 LCD laptop that runs DOS and Kermit is the next best thing. One thing I can do with the Zenith is run a Xircom Pocket Ethernet adapter off the printer port and (with the right packet driver shim) do Kermit over TCP/IP, not just over serial. That's very nice in a closed environment where one can tolerate using telnet. -ethan From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Oct 1 13:55:53 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2018 14:55:53 -0400 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Oct 1, 2018, at 2:46 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 2:16 PM, Tapley, Mark via cctalk > wrote: >> I have more desire to own systems to play on than I have space or time. > > True for most of us, I suspect. > >> Addressing the former, I have to say my favorite VT-100-alike is a Rainbow. One box (plus monitor plus the dreaded LK-201), three functions in the collection: VT-100 emulation (not perfect but not bad), CPM-80/86 (is that one or two functions?), MS-DOS 3.11b. > > I have only recently learned of the built-in VT100 emulation. I'm > curious how it's "not perfect". I don't know that particular one. But a possible answer would be: because the VT100 had a bunch of strange corner cases that were not documented and not necessarily well understood. DEC created an internal standard for terminal behavior; that specification was extremely detailed and very well written. It became the functional specification for the VT200 series. I used it to write the terminal emulator for RSTS on the Pro. It was understood at the time that this spec was close to VT100 behavior (apart from 8 bit characters instead of 7) but not exactly that, and deliberately so. Similar things have happened in other places. There is DDCMP, and "DMC compatibility mode" which is best described as "DDCMP with certain bugs". It hard to find a reasonable description of the latter. If you want to do DDCMP, you're best off implementing the spec (which is easy) but if you do, it won't work 100% with the "high speed" variant of the DMC-11. paul From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Oct 1 14:17:10 2018 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2018 19:17:10 +0000 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1287A30C-EF72-458E-BBA5-B999BC6AC32E@swri.edu> > On Oct 1, 2018, at 1:55 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Oct 1, 2018, at 2:46 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: >> >> On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 2:16 PM, Tapley, Mark via cctalk >>> ...I have to say my favorite VT-100-alike is a Rainbow. One box (plus monitor plus the dreaded LK-201), three functions in the collection: VT-100 emulation (not perfect but not bad), CPM-80/86 (is that one or two functions?), MS-DOS 3.11b. >> >> I have only recently learned of the built-in VT100 emulation. I'm >> curious how it's "not perfect". > > I don't know that particular one. But a possible answer would be: because the VT100 had a bunch of strange corner cases that were not documented and not necessarily well understood. > > DEC created an internal standard for terminal behavior; that specification was extremely detailed and very well written. It became the functional specification for the VT200 series. I used it to write the terminal emulator for RSTS on the Pro. It was understood at the time that this spec was close to VT100 behavior (apart from 8 bit characters instead of 7) but not exactly that, and deliberately so. > > Similar things have happened in other places. There is DDCMP, and "DMC compatibility mode" which is best described as "DDCMP with certain bugs". It hard to find a reasonable description of the latter. If you want to do DDCMP, you're best off implementing the spec (which is easy) but if you do, it won't work 100% with the "high speed" variant of the DMC-11. > > paul I can?t remember the exact VT-100 / Rainbow differences. I do remember seeing a description (usenet-post kind of thing, not an official document) that detailed them, and deciding the Rainbow emulation was ?good enough? for my purposes. If I can find that document (later this week) I?ll try to post or re-post it, but I?m submerged by $work at the moment. If someone else comes up with it before me, I?ll be glad! - Mark From imp at bsdimp.com Mon Oct 1 15:31:28 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2018 14:31:28 -0600 Subject: VT100's In-Reply-To: <1287A30C-EF72-458E-BBA5-B999BC6AC32E@swri.edu> References: <1287A30C-EF72-458E-BBA5-B999BC6AC32E@swri.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 1, 2018 at 1:17 PM Tapley, Mark via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On Oct 1, 2018, at 1:55 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > >> On Oct 1, 2018, at 2:46 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >> On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 2:16 PM, Tapley, Mark via cctalk > >>> ...I have to say my favorite VT-100-alike is a Rainbow. One box (plus > monitor plus the dreaded LK-201), three functions in the collection: VT-100 > emulation (not perfect but not bad), CPM-80/86 (is that one or two > functions?), MS-DOS 3.11b. > >> > >> I have only recently learned of the built-in VT100 emulation. I'm > >> curious how it's "not perfect". > > > > I don't know that particular one. But a possible answer would be: > because the VT100 had a bunch of strange corner cases that were not > documented and not necessarily well understood. > > > > DEC created an internal standard for terminal behavior; that > specification was extremely detailed and very well written. It became the > functional specification for the VT200 series. I used it to write the > terminal emulator for RSTS on the Pro. It was understood at the time that > this spec was close to VT100 behavior (apart from 8 bit characters instead > of 7) but not exactly that, and deliberately so. > > > > Similar things have happened in other places. There is DDCMP, and "DMC > compatibility mode" which is best described as "DDCMP with certain bugs". > It hard to find a reasonable description of the latter. If you want to do > DDCMP, you're best off implementing the spec (which is easy) but if you do, > it won't work 100% with the "high speed" variant of the DMC-11. > > > > paul > > I can?t remember the exact VT-100 / Rainbow differences. I do remember > seeing a description (usenet-post kind of thing, not an official document) > that detailed them, and deciding the Rainbow emulation was ?good enough? > for my purposes. If I can find that document (later this week) I?ll try to > post or re-post it, but I?m submerged by $work at the moment. If someone > else comes up with it before me, I?ll be glad! The TRM had a list of differences in it. They were both highly esoteric and generally not an issue for anything I ever ran on my Rainbow for the decade or so I used it. I don't think it mentioned DDCMP though. Warner From sales at elecplus.com Mon Oct 1 16:03:24 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2018 16:03:24 -0500 Subject: A few more products added Message-ID: <0df701d459ca$317d7b40$947871c0$@com> Alps AEK II switches https://bit.ly/2Ni2s1H Wyse ASCII https://bit.ly/2QkkSk7 Wyse PCE https://bit.ly/2P2vqEp Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 1 17:17:47 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2018 15:17:47 -0700 Subject: Source code listings from REDAC PDP-based PCB layout system. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3c27ab05-5e48-5cfa-050d-16f42c6e4522@bitsavers.org> I'm interested. PDP-15 software in any form is pretty rare On 10/1/18 7:33 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > I have a set of around 5 to 8 binders with printed source code listings > from a PDP-15 system. The listings appear to be from a REDAC SOFTWARE > LIMITED PCB CAD system. The name of the software seems to be REDAL 3 MARK > 7. There are dates on the listings in the range 74 and 75. > > https://i.imgur.com/m1ji9uR.jpg > https://i.imgur.com/SzaiH78.jpg > > First of all does anyone has more info on the REDAL software from REDAC? > > Then secondly is there anyone interested in these binders with listings? I > think the quality of printout is good enough to do OCR on. > > Note that there is no guarantee that these are the complete set of binders > with listings. > > /Mattis > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 1 17:20:22 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2018 15:20:22 -0700 Subject: A few more products added In-Reply-To: <0df701d459ca$317d7b40$947871c0$@com> References: <0df701d459ca$317d7b40$947871c0$@com> Message-ID: <23e8fc42-8208-56d7-af30-183768796ea3@bitsavers.org> Do you know of anyone who has any Telex Microswitch keyboards? I have a Telex 276 I'm trying to restore, and of course it came without a keyboard. From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 1 18:09:45 2018 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2018 23:09:45 +0000 Subject: Source code listings from REDAC PDP-based PCB layout system. In-Reply-To: <3c27ab05-5e48-5cfa-050d-16f42c6e4522@bitsavers.org> References: , <3c27ab05-5e48-5cfa-050d-16f42c6e4522@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I think this is Racal-Readac, one of the early PCB software vendors (from the UK). Later bought up by Zunken (the big three are Cadence, Mentor, Zunken). Is the source straight PDP-15 assembly, or a mix with another high level language? It would be great to look at this, I hope it makes it to bitsavers... Randy ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Al Kossow via cctalk Sent: Monday, October 1, 2018 3:17 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Source code listings from REDAC PDP-based PCB layout system. I'm interested. PDP-15 software in any form is pretty rare On 10/1/18 7:33 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > I have a set of around 5 to 8 binders with printed source code listings > from a PDP-15 system. The listings appear to be from a REDAC SOFTWARE > LIMITED PCB CAD system. The name of the software seems to be REDAL 3 MARK > 7. There are dates on the listings in the range 74 and 75. > > https://i.imgur.com/m1ji9uR.jpg > https://i.imgur.com/SzaiH78.jpg > > First of all does anyone has more info on the REDAL software from REDAC? > > Then secondly is there anyone interested in these binders with listings? I > think the quality of printout is good enough to do OCR on. > > Note that there is no guarantee that these are the complete set of binders > with listings. > > /Mattis > From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Oct 1 18:42:16 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2018 19:42:16 -0400 Subject: Source code listings from REDAC PDP-based PCB layout system. In-Reply-To: <3c27ab05-5e48-5cfa-050d-16f42c6e4522@bitsavers.org> References: <3c27ab05-5e48-5cfa-050d-16f42c6e4522@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <74ACB85A-2C83-41B6-AA39-E47066418AC1@comcast.net> > On Oct 1, 2018, at 6:17 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > I'm interested. > PDP-15 software in any form is pretty rare > > On 10/1/18 7:33 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: >> I have a set of around 5 to 8 binders with printed source code listings >> from a PDP-15 system. The listings appear to be from a REDAC SOFTWARE >> LIMITED PCB CAD system. The name of the software seems to be REDAL 3 MARK >> 7. There are dates on the listings in the range 74 and 75. I wonder if that's what DEC used internally? I remember some PDP15 systems around Merrimack NH that I was told were used for that. They had big displays, VS60 tubes or similar. paul From dave at mitton.com Mon Oct 1 23:18:47 2018 From: dave at mitton.com (Dave Mitton) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 00:18:47 -0400 Subject: Computer books and PC parts clearance Message-ID: <20181002041849.EC3E24E78F@mx2.ezwind.net> On this list, about 2.5 years ago, I offered up a bunch of misc computer books, PC parts, and software, for the cost of shipping, but then I got occupied with some other parts of life, and didn't follow through with those that responded. I still have the emails and will let those that answered before get first dibs. I will follow up with them in a day or so, if their emails still work. But I have added more stuff to the list, including some misc hardware bits. The current list is on http://dave.mitton.com/computer_clearance.html I will give priority to the first, but if you don't come through with pickup or shipping costs, they will go to the next in line. I am hoping to move this stuff out in the next few months. Thanks for your patience, hope some of this is useful. Dave. Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Tue Oct 2 02:13:12 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 00:13:12 -0700 Subject: Source code listings from REDAC PDP-based PCB layout system. In-Reply-To: <74ACB85A-2C83-41B6-AA39-E47066418AC1@comcast.net> References: <3c27ab05-5e48-5cfa-050d-16f42c6e4522@bitsavers.org> <74ACB85A-2C83-41B6-AA39-E47066418AC1@comcast.net> Message-ID: I have a version of the Racal Redac CAD system for the HP 2647 or 2648 graphic terminal I believe. Several DC 100 tapes and one or two boards full of custom ROMs... No documentation. I have not tried to do anything with it yet. Marc On Oct 1, 2018, at 4:42 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > On Oct 1, 2018, at 6:17 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > I'm interested. > PDP-15 software in any form is pretty rare > >> On 10/1/18 7:33 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: >> I have a set of around 5 to 8 binders with printed source code listings >> from a PDP-15 system. The listings appear to be from a REDAC SOFTWARE >> LIMITED PCB CAD system. The name of the software seems to be REDAL 3 MARK >> 7. There are dates on the listings in the range 74 and 75. I wonder if that's what DEC used internally? I remember some PDP15 systems around Merrimack NH that I was told were used for that. They had big displays, VS60 tubes or similar. paul From ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org Tue Oct 2 00:50:51 2018 From: ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org (Andrew Luke Nesbit) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 06:50:51 +0100 Subject: Computer books and PC parts clearance In-Reply-To: <20181002041849.EC3E24E78F@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <20181002041849.EC3E24E78F@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Dear Dave, Thank you for offering these. I'm in the UK and I need check a few things before I pay for international postage. Where are you located? On 02/10/2018 05:18, Dave Mitton via cctech wrote: > But I have added more stuff to the list, including some misc hardware bits. > The current list is on http://dave.mitton.com/computer_clearance.html I am interested in the following: "Yamaha CDR-100 CD standalone drive SCSI interface (with caddy tray)" What condition is this in. Do you think it has much longevity left? I am a music and audio engineer, a musician, and I studied CD formats in great detail. A excellent quality CD-R drive with a SCSI inteface was a great way to learn about the technology. At the time I was using a Plextor. How much would packaging and postage be please? Kind regards, Andrew -- OpenPGP key: EB28 0338 28B7 19DA DAB0 B193 D21D 996E 883B E5B9 From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Oct 2 07:35:16 2018 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 07:35:16 -0500 Subject: pdp-11/34 extravaganza In-Reply-To: <01be01d458f0$1b568f80$5203ae80$@classiccmp.org> References: <01be01d458f0$1b568f80$5203ae80$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <008a01d45a4c$5fc027f0$1f4077d0$@classiccmp.org> This was claimed by the way...... -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West via cctalk Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2018 2:02 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: pdp-11/34 extravaganza I was contacted about an 11/34 system available. It appears to be not just a system, nor just a system in a rack, but pretty much a full installation and all the trimmings (printers, terminals, documentation, media, etc.). I am pretty sure some of the terminals will invoke interest at the very least ;) Note - the person who has it is looking for a sale. No prices have been discussed, but my impression is they aren't going to let it all go for $50 :) The stuff is located in the Detroit metro area. I am not (nor do I want to be) involved in this transaction in any way. I'm just passing it on. I would prefer to pass it to someone who has a demonstrated ability (and resources) for rescues of this size and type of equipment. All I care about is that the equipment is rescued and by a responsible party. Do not email me expressing interest in just one or two items. I will pass it all to one person - if THEY want to part it out *after the deal* that's fine. I do have a single picture I can forward. If interested email me directly.. Terminals (screen, keyboard, mouse) (1 is custom built) - Quantity: 2 -Tektronix 4012 - Quantity: 1 -Tektronix 4010 - Quantity: 1 - Custom Built Tektronix Printer Terminal with Monitor (keyboard) - Quantity: 1 - Digital VT100 - Quatity: 2 - Digital VT105 Printer Terminal - Quantity: 2 - DEC Writer IV PDP 11/34 (edit by jay - I believe there is only one 11/34, not 4. I could be wrong.) - Quantity: 1 - 11/34A-DH - 115 Volts / 60Hz - Quantity: 1 - 1134A-XE - 120 Volts / 60Hz - Quantity: 1 - 11/34A-YE - 120 Volts / 60Hz - Quantity: 1 - 11/34A DE - 120 Volts / 60Hz Digital RL01 - Quantity: 2 Digital RL02 - Quantity: 2 Digital RX02 - Quantity: 4 - 1 out of the 4 is non-functioning Digital RX01- Quantity: 2 DEC Magnetic Disk Drivers - Quantity: 23 (possibly more) Some are RL01K-DC and some are RL02K-DC One has Fortinet on it IEE Serial Display Quantity: 1 Digital M9202 Quantity: 5 Digital M9741 Quantity: 1 Digital M9312 Quantity: 1 Digital M9302 Quantity: 2 Digital M7850 Quantity: 2 Digital M9301 Quantity: 2 Digital QSC H322 Quantity 1, possibly 2 Various Spare Parts -Printing Paper -Original Printing Ink -INMAC Air Filters -RX02 Replacement Fan -Extra Cable for PDP 11/34 -Moss Memory for PDP 11/34 -Spare Power Supplies -3 cases of documentation for the different components and programs Half Rack with Built In Power Supply Digital 872-A Quantity: 1 Full Rack, Chasf CD3001-99-0141 Quantity: 1 From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Oct 2 07:37:43 2018 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 07:37:43 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 in russia? Message-ID: <008b01d45a4c$b729c7d0$257d5770$@classiccmp.org> Someone has contacted me about a pdp-11 that controls a "measuring machine dea epsilon". It appears that they want to replace the pdp-11 with a "ibm" (I'm guessing a pc), and then they would give the pdp-11 as a gift. That is all the info I have. Are there any listmembers in Russia who would be able to take on a project? J From jon at jonworld.com Tue Oct 2 07:46:35 2018 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 13:46:35 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 in russia? In-Reply-To: <008b01d45a4c$b729c7d0$257d5770$@classiccmp.org> References: <008b01d45a4c$b729c7d0$257d5770$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 1:37 PM Jay West via cctalk wrote: > Someone has contacted me about a pdp-11 that controls a "measuring machine > dea epsilon". > Russia is a pretty big place. Any idea where? If we have list members in Ukraine versus Finland versus Romania it could make a huge difference. Or Japan if the machine is in Vladivostok. From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Oct 2 07:52:44 2018 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 07:52:44 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 in russia? In-Reply-To: References: <008b01d45a4c$b729c7d0$257d5770$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <009301d45a4e$d04070a0$70c151e0$@classiccmp.org> I do have a phone number for them. I am not really familiar with international dialing, but it starts: +79507..... which my google-fu seems to indicate is Slovenia? Maybe someone in the US could do the work if a tech-minded translator was available. J -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Katz via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2018 7:47 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP-11 in russia? On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 1:37 PM Jay West via cctalk wrote: > Someone has contacted me about a pdp-11 that controls a "measuring > machine dea epsilon". > Russia is a pretty big place. Any idea where? If we have list members in Ukraine versus Finland versus Romania it could make a huge difference. Or Japan if the machine is in Vladivostok. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Oct 2 07:56:04 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 12:56:04 +0000 Subject: PDP-11 in russia? In-Reply-To: <009301d45a4e$d04070a0$70c151e0$@classiccmp.org> References: <008b01d45a4c$b729c7d0$257d5770$@classiccmp.org> <009301d45a4e$d04070a0$70c151e0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 10/02/2018 08:52 AM, Jay West via cctalk wrote: > I do have a phone number for them. I am not really familiar with international dialing, but it starts: > > +79507..... which my google-fu seems to indicate is Slovenia? > > I wouldn't call a Slovenian a Russian to his face.? :-) It's also a very? long ways from Russia. bill From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Oct 2 07:56:27 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 08:56:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Computer books and PC parts clearance Message-ID: <20181002125627.E126018C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Andrew Luke Nesbit ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org > Where are you located? Like the listing says, "north side of Boston". Noel From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Oct 2 08:03:56 2018 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 08:03:56 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 in russia? In-Reply-To: References: <008b01d45a4c$b729c7d0$257d5770$@classiccmp.org> <009301d45a4e$d04070a0$70c151e0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000001d45a50$608db450$21a91cf0$@classiccmp.org> Sorry, all I got was two sentences, a .ru email address and a +79 phone number :) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2018 7:56 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: PDP-11 in russia? On 10/02/2018 08:52 AM, Jay West via cctalk wrote: > I do have a phone number for them. I am not really familiar with international dialing, but it starts: > > +79507..... which my google-fu seems to indicate is Slovenia? > > I wouldn't call a Slovenian a Russian to his face. :-) It's also a very long ways from Russia. bill From ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org Tue Oct 2 08:47:36 2018 From: ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org (Andrew Luke Nesbit) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 14:47:36 +0100 Subject: Computer books and PC parts clearance In-Reply-To: <20181002125627.E126018C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181002125627.E126018C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 02/10/2018 13:56, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Andrew Luke Nesbit ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org > > > Where are you located? > > Like the listing says, "north side of Boston". I missed that part. Also, oops! I was intending to send my message off-list to Dave. I have friends in Somerville so if I am fortunate and Dave lets me have the Yamaha CDR-100, then I can ask somebody if they will forward it to me. Andrew -- OpenPGP key: EB28 0338 28B7 19DA DAB0 B193 D21D 996E 883B E5B9 From jon at jonworld.com Tue Oct 2 08:56:57 2018 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 14:56:57 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 in russia? In-Reply-To: <000001d45a50$608db450$21a91cf0$@classiccmp.org> References: <008b01d45a4c$b729c7d0$257d5770$@classiccmp.org> <009301d45a4e$d04070a0$70c151e0$@classiccmp.org> <000001d45a50$608db450$21a91cf0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: IIRC +7 is Russian country code. Anything after that is probably a city or exchange. On Tue, 2 Oct 2018 at 14:04, Jay West via cctalk wrote: > Sorry, all I got was two sentences, a .ru email address and a +79 phone > number :) > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bill > Gunshannon via cctalk > Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2018 7:56 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: PDP-11 in russia? > > > > On 10/02/2018 08:52 AM, Jay West via cctalk wrote: > > I do have a phone number for them. I am not really familiar with > international dialing, but it starts: > > > > +79507..... which my google-fu seems to indicate is Slovenia? > > > > > > I wouldn't call a Slovenian a Russian to his face. :-) > > It's also a very long ways from Russia. > > bill > > > > -- -Jon +44 7792 149029 From marcogb at xs4all.nl Tue Oct 2 11:00:23 2018 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 18:00:23 +0200 Subject: FS: various books, including some old/classic/vintage Message-ID: <733d31c4-012f-8de6-0552-76aa29358264@xs4all.nl> Anyone interested in the following books?? ?? "OpenVMS with Apache, OSU, and WASD: The Nonstop Webserver" ????? (Alan Winston, Digital Press, 2003, 454 p.)? ?? "Teach Yourself COBOL in 24 Hours"? ????? (Thane Hubbell, SAMS, 1999, 477 p., incl. unused and ????? unopened CD-ROM)? ?? "TRS-80 Assembly Language Programming" ????? (William Barden Jr., Radio Shack/Tandy Corp., 1979, 224 p.)? ?? "Assembly Language Programming for the TRS-80 Model 16" ????? (Dan Keen & Dave Dischert, Tab Books, 1984, 184 p.)? ?? "ASP in a Nutshell: A Desktop Quick Reference" ????? (A. Keyton Weissinger, O'Reilly, 1999)? Some other books can be seen here: , also some other computer and related items here: .? All is located in the Netherlands.? On Friday they will be thrown if nobody is interested.? ?- MG? From abuse at cabal.org.uk Tue Oct 2 11:48:49 2018 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 18:48:49 +0200 Subject: PDP-11 in russia? In-Reply-To: <009301d45a4e$d04070a0$70c151e0$@classiccmp.org> References: <008b01d45a4c$b729c7d0$257d5770$@classiccmp.org> <009301d45a4e$d04070a0$70c151e0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20181002164848.hyhcm3atjzxb2wto@mooli.org.uk> On Tue, Oct 02, 2018 at 07:52:44AM -0500, Jay West via cctalk wrote: > I do have a phone number for them. I am not really familiar with > international dialing, but it starts: > +79507..... which my google-fu seems to indicate is Slovenia? +7 950 is a Russian mobile number. It's a non-geographic number like most mobile numbers outside of the USA, so could be pretty much anywhere in Russia or one of the other bits of land which are de facto Russia. This also assumes it's not roaming on another country's network. But based on something as simple as population density, it's probably going to be in Moscow or St. Petersburg, or at least in the west of the country adjoining other European nations. From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Oct 2 12:01:09 2018 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 19:01:09 +0200 Subject: PDP-11 in russia? In-Reply-To: <008b01d45a4c$b729c7d0$257d5770$@classiccmp.org> References: <008b01d45a4c$b729c7d0$257d5770$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20181002170109.GD41410@beast.freibergnet.de> Jay West via cctalk wrote: > Someone has contacted me about a pdp-11 that controls a "measuring machine > dea epsilon". > > > > It appears that they want to replace the pdp-11 with a "ibm" (I'm guessing a > pc), and then they would give the pdp-11 as a gift. > > > > That is all the info I have. Are there any listmembers in Russia who would > be able to take on a project? > > > > J This for sure isn't a PDP11, it would be an "ELEKTRONIKA 60" I think. This is something like an 11/23 but with metric Connectors, PCBs are a little bit bigger as PDP11's. I do own such a beast, that's a picture from the CPU: https://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/PDP-VAX/E60/E60-01.jpg Other pictures are in the same directory (directory index is allowed). ..it's running RT11 from a 8" RX Floppy clone... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Oct 2 12:27:22 2018 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod G8DGR) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 18:27:22 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 in russia? In-Reply-To: <20181002170109.GD41410@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <008b01d45a4c$b729c7d0$257d5770$@classiccmp.org> <20181002170109.GD41410@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <5B9AED2F01A48023@rgout07.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) There were plenty of real PDP-11?s that found their way to Russia. Often through front companies in say Vienna. Rod Smallwood Digital Equipment Corporation 1975 ? 1985 Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Holm Tiffe via cctalk Sent: 02 October 2018 18:01 To: Jay West; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP-11 in russia? Jay West via cctalk wrote: > Someone has contacted me about a pdp-11 that controls a "measuring machine > dea epsilon". > > > > It appears that they want to replace the pdp-11 with a "ibm" (I'm guessing a > pc), and then they would give the pdp-11 as a gift. > > > > That is all the info I have. Are there any listmembers in Russia who would > be able to take on a project? > > > > J This for sure isn't a PDP11, it would be an "ELEKTRONIKA 60" I think. This is something like an 11/23 but with metric Connectors, PCBs are a little bit bigger as PDP11's. I do own such a beast, that's a picture from the CPU: https://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/PDP-VAX/E60/E60-01.jpg Other pictures are in the same directory (directory index is allowed). ..it's running RT11 from a 8" RX Floppy clone... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Oct 2 12:34:54 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 11:34:54 -0600 Subject: Ethernet names... Message-ID: <21940084-8ff9-e483-74c4-a342839c136a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Does anybody know names / terms that correspond to the original 3 Mbps Ethernet? I.e. 10 Mbps Ethernet is also knows as Ethernet II (2) and D.I.X. (for Digital, Intel, and Xerox). Was the first 3 Mbps Ethernet simply called "Ethernet" with an implicit "I" (1)? Was there a name to differentiate it from D.I.X.? Grant. . . . unix || die From ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org Tue Oct 2 12:35:05 2018 From: ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org (Andrew Luke Nesbit) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 18:35:05 +0100 Subject: FS: various books, including some old/classic/vintage In-Reply-To: <733d31c4-012f-8de6-0552-76aa29358264@xs4all.nl> References: <733d31c4-012f-8de6-0552-76aa29358264@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <29d91c1b-aa38-4cc7-1862-0e93d013a6bb@andrewnesbit.org> Dear MG, I am interested in a few of your items. On 02/10/2018 17:00, MG via cctalk wrote: > ?? "OpenVMS with Apache, OSU, and WASD: The Nonstop Webserver" > ????? (Alan Winston, Digital Press, 2003, 454 p.)? Yes please! If there were only one thing in the whole list of items you're offering, it would be this! I have recently acquired an HP (formerly Compaq, formerly DEC) AlphaServer DS15 with 1GB ram and 2x 300GB HDD. I am looking forward to doing interesting things with this wonderful machine! > some other computer and related items here: .? I'm looking through this list now and will be in touch again shortly. Mostly I wanted to express my great interest in "OpenVMS with Apache, OSU, and WASD: The Nonstop Webserver" as above. > All is located in the Netherlands. I'm in London, UK. Kind regards, Andrew -- OpenPGP key: EB28 0338 28B7 19DA DAB0 B193 D21D 996E 883B E5B9 From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Oct 2 12:46:58 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 13:46:58 -0400 Subject: Ethernet names... In-Reply-To: <21940084-8ff9-e483-74c4-a342839c136a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <21940084-8ff9-e483-74c4-a342839c136a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: Ethernet was the name given to the Alto (XEROX) Aloha Network created (?) by Bob Metcalff (sp?), which was based/inspired by an improved version of the ALOHANET used by the U of Hawaii. I think Ethernet was a nickname, eventually becoming the official name of what was originally the Alto Aloha Network. I did not look this up in Wikipedia, I am sure this must be somewhere Bill On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 1:35 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Does anybody know names / terms that correspond to the original 3 Mbps > Ethernet? > > I.e. 10 Mbps Ethernet is also knows as Ethernet II (2) and D.I.X. (for > Digital, Intel, and Xerox). > > Was the first 3 Mbps Ethernet simply called "Ethernet" with an implicit > "I" (1)? Was there a name to differentiate it from D.I.X.? > > > > Grant. . . . > unix || die > From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Oct 2 12:50:16 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 13:50:16 -0400 Subject: Ethernet names... In-Reply-To: References: <21940084-8ff9-e483-74c4-a342839c136a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: Not clear the 3 Mb one had a name of its own. Note that Aloha is fundamentally different from Ethernet. Aloha is MA but not CS nor CD, and its performance characteristics are very different from Ethernet. paul > On Oct 2, 2018, at 1:46 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > Ethernet was the name given to the Alto (XEROX) Aloha Network created (?) > by Bob Metcalff (sp?), which was based/inspired by an improved version of > the ALOHANET used by the U of Hawaii. I think Ethernet was a nickname, > eventually becoming the official name of what was originally the Alto Aloha > Network. > > I did not look this up in Wikipedia, I am sure this must be somewhere > > Bill > > On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 1:35 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Does anybody know names / terms that correspond to the original 3 Mbps >> Ethernet? >> >> I.e. 10 Mbps Ethernet is also knows as Ethernet II (2) and D.I.X. (for >> Digital, Intel, and Xerox). >> >> Was the first 3 Mbps Ethernet simply called "Ethernet" with an implicit >> "I" (1)? Was there a name to differentiate it from D.I.X.? >> >> >> >> Grant. . . . >> unix || die >> From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Oct 2 13:20:24 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 11:20:24 -0700 Subject: Ethernet names... In-Reply-To: References: <21940084-8ff9-e483-74c4-a342839c136a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: To the best of my knowledge, at the time it was developed at PARC in 1973/74, it was referred to as "Ethernet" (or "The Ethernet") and later was referred to as "Xerox Experimental Ethernet" likely to differentiate it from the developing 10mbit standards... - Josh On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 10:47 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Ethernet was the name given to the Alto (XEROX) Aloha Network created (?) > by Bob Metcalff (sp?), which was based/inspired by an improved version of > the ALOHANET used by the U of Hawaii. I think Ethernet was a nickname, > eventually becoming the official name of what was originally the Alto Aloha > Network. > > I did not look this up in Wikipedia, I am sure this must be somewhere > > Bill > > On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 1:35 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Does anybody know names / terms that correspond to the original 3 Mbps > > Ethernet? > > > > I.e. 10 Mbps Ethernet is also knows as Ethernet II (2) and D.I.X. (for > > Digital, Intel, and Xerox). > > > > Was the first 3 Mbps Ethernet simply called "Ethernet" with an implicit > > "I" (1)? Was there a name to differentiate it from D.I.X.? > > > > > > > > Grant. . . . > > unix || die > > > From useddec at gmail.com Tue Oct 2 14:17:13 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 14:17:13 -0500 Subject: pdp-11/34 extravaganza In-Reply-To: <008a01d45a4c$5fc027f0$1f4077d0$@classiccmp.org> References: <01be01d458f0$1b568f80$5203ae80$@classiccmp.org> <008a01d45a4c$5fc027f0$1f4077d0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: OK, thanks Jay. Catch you later. On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 8:32 AM Jay West via cctalk wrote: > This was claimed by the way...... > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West > via cctalk > Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2018 2:02 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: pdp-11/34 extravaganza > > I was contacted about an 11/34 system available. It appears to be not just > a > system, nor just a system in a rack, but pretty much a full installation > and > all the trimmings (printers, terminals, documentation, media, etc.). I am > pretty sure some of the terminals will invoke interest at the very least ;) > > > > Note - the person who has it is looking for a sale. No prices have been > discussed, but my impression is they aren't going to let it all go for $50 > :) The stuff is located in the Detroit metro area. > > > > I am not (nor do I want to be) involved in this transaction in any way. I'm > just passing it on. I would prefer to pass it to someone who has a > demonstrated ability (and resources) for rescues of this size and type of > equipment. All I care about is that the equipment is rescued and by a > responsible party. Do not email me expressing interest in just one or two > items. I will pass it all to one person - if THEY want to part it out > *after > the deal* that's fine. I do have a single picture I can forward. If > interested email me directly.. > > > > Terminals (screen, keyboard, mouse) (1 is custom built) > > - Quantity: 2 -Tektronix 4012 > > - Quantity: 1 -Tektronix 4010 > > - Quantity: 1 - Custom Built Tektronix > > > > Printer Terminal with Monitor (keyboard) > > - Quantity: 1 - Digital VT100 > > - Quatity: 2 - Digital VT105 > > > > Printer Terminal > > - Quantity: 2 - DEC Writer IV > > > > PDP 11/34 (edit by jay - I believe there is only one 11/34, not 4. I could > be wrong.) > > - Quantity: 1 - 11/34A-DH - 115 Volts / 60Hz > > - Quantity: 1 - 1134A-XE - 120 Volts / 60Hz > > - Quantity: 1 - 11/34A-YE - 120 Volts / 60Hz > > - Quantity: 1 - 11/34A DE - 120 Volts / 60Hz > > > > Digital RL01 - Quantity: 2 > > Digital RL02 - Quantity: 2 > > > > Digital RX02 - Quantity: 4 - 1 out of the 4 is non-functioning > > Digital RX01- Quantity: 2 > > > > DEC Magnetic Disk Drivers > > - Quantity: 23 (possibly more) > > Some are RL01K-DC and some are RL02K-DC > > One has Fortinet on it > > > > IEE Serial Display Quantity: 1 > > > > Digital M9202 Quantity: 5 > > Digital M9741 Quantity: 1 > > Digital M9312 Quantity: 1 > > Digital M9302 Quantity: 2 > > Digital M7850 Quantity: 2 > > Digital M9301 Quantity: 2 > > > > Digital QSC H322 Quantity 1, possibly 2 > > > > Various Spare Parts > > -Printing Paper > > -Original Printing Ink > > -INMAC Air Filters > > -RX02 Replacement Fan > > -Extra Cable for PDP 11/34 > > -Moss Memory for PDP 11/34 > > -Spare Power Supplies > > -3 cases of documentation for the different components and programs > > > > Half Rack with Built In Power Supply Digital 872-A Quantity: 1 > > Full Rack, Chasf CD3001-99-0141 Quantity: 1 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 2 14:18:59 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 14:18:59 -0500 Subject: pdp-11/34 extravaganza In-Reply-To: <008a01d45a4c$5fc027f0$1f4077d0$@classiccmp.org> References: <01be01d458f0$1b568f80$5203ae80$@classiccmp.org> <008a01d45a4c$5fc027f0$1f4077d0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 11:52 AM Jay West via cctalk wrote: > This was claimed by the way...... Somebody has a bunch of nice new toys. I have multiple PDP-11/34s, and RL01/02 and RX01/02 drives (and not looking to add more). The Tektronix terminals, though... very nice. I only have dumb terminals and a pair of late-model 4105 (raster) Tektronix terminals. I got to use a 4010 on a PDP-8/m at the Ohio State University Vet School in the mid-1980s (with a pair of CPUs and shared RK05 disks attached to a mass spectrometer - the application was to test horse urine for performance drugs on the mass spec, then flip the drives/data over and use the other CPU to do analysis and graphing). It was fun noodling on a vector storage scope since I was used to ASR33 and VT52 at the time. -ethan From tlindner at macmess.org Tue Oct 2 14:24:47 2018 From: tlindner at macmess.org (tim lindner) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 12:24:47 -0700 Subject: 6809 Monitor Message-ID: Does anyone have source to a 6809 monitor program? I'm looking for something I can make work in a CoCo. Functionality I'm looking for is something that will let me read and write to memory. -- -- tim lindner "Proper User Policy apparently means Simon Says." From db at db.net Tue Oct 2 14:46:21 2018 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 15:46:21 -0400 Subject: 6809 Monitor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20181002194621.GA25162@night.db.net> On Tue, Oct 02, 2018 at 12:24:47PM -0700, tim lindner via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone have source to a 6809 monitor program? > > I'm looking for something I can make work in a CoCo. > > Functionality I'm looking for is something that will let me read and > write to memory. I have a copy of psymon.s if you want it. > > -- > -- > tim lindner > > "Proper User Policy apparently means Simon Says." -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://artemis.db.net/~db -------------- next part -------------- ************************************************* * psymon version 1.00 * * copyright (c) 1979 percom data company, inc. * percom data company, inc. grants unrestricted * royalty-free license for the use of this * program provided the user clearly acknowledges * its origin. * * while this monitor is very simple, its true * power lies in its extensibility and in the * tools that it provides for other software * to use. This operating system is dedicated * to harold mauch and his legendary 512 byte * operating system. * * psymon Much modified version 4.00 * * commands: * m
- memory examine/change * o
- memory change (output to I/O port no read) * g
- go to address * r - register examine/change * l
- load program from tape, optional load address * s - save program to tape * b
- set/list breakpoints * u
- unset breakpoints * e start end dest - Burn EEPROM at dest with data from start, end * * other comments to be added here later * * Extensive modifications for GPE * - acia changed to 68681 DUART, I know strange to use a 68k part on 6809 * - removed 'z' command * - moved I/O,ram,rom addresses as needed * - removed special code for special dcb's for punch since * debug port will be used for all uploads/downloads and need the bytes. * (There is lots of ROM on target system, but I am unwilling to attempt * relocating monitor since that would entail working out padding, * see my next note) * - Original programmer did not make use of 'lbra' and 'lbsr' instructions * for reaching code ie. used 'stepping stone' technique, makes me wonder * if this was originally a 6800 monitor? * - Added 'o' command * - DCB is obviously "Device Control Block" but no reference to that * in "FLEX" or "OS9" so I have no idea where this came from. * * DB. Feb 19 1990 * DB. Feb 25 1990 ************************************************* * system address constants (GPE version) RUNSYS equ 1 ; if bottom bit is set on INPORT, Run 2nd ROM rom1 equ 0F800H ; base add of psymon rom rom2 equ 0C000H ; base add of extension rom ram equ 0000 ; base add of ram termnl equ 8000H ; system terminal acia * ascii character constants cr equ 0dH ; carriage return lf equ 0AH ; line feed sp equ 20H ; space * acia control configurations MREG equ 0 ; Mode register (MR1,MR2) SREG equ 1 ; Status register CSREG equ 1 ; Clock select register CREG equ 2 ; Command register RHR equ 3 ; Receiver holding register THR equ 3 ; Transmitter holding register OPCR equ 0DH ; Output port conf reg. INPORT equ 0DH ; Same as above, read input port SETOP equ 0EH RESETOP equ 0FH * yes, THR is the same as RHR * * Bit masks for SREG (status register) * RXRDY equ 01H ; RXRDY equ %00000001 TXRDY equ 04H ; TXRDY equ %00000100 RXBRK equ 80H ; RXBRK equ %10000000 FRAME equ 40H ; FRAME equ %01000000 PARER equ 20H ; PARER equ %00100000 OVRUN equ 10H ; OVRUN equ %00010000 * * Commands for CREG * RESETRX equ 20H ; RESETRX equ %00100000 RESETTX equ 30H ; RESETTX equ %00110000 RESETMR equ 10H ; RESETMR equ %00010000 ENBTX equ 04H ; ENBTX equ %00000100 Enable Transmitter ENBRX equ 01H ; ENBRX equ %00000001 Enable Receiver DISTX equ 08H ; DISTX equ %00001000 Disable Transmitter DISRX equ 02H ; DISRX equ %00000010 Disable Receiver ENABLE equ 05H ; ENABLE equ %00000101 Enable both RX and TX * * Commands for MR * Whenever MR is pointing to MR1 and then is written to, MR flips to MR2. * RXRTSNO equ 0 RXRTSYES equ 80H ; RXRTSYES equ %10000000 RXINTRDY equ 0 RXINTFUL equ 40H ; RXINTFUL equ %01000000 * * MR1 equ RXRTSNO|RXINTRDY|ERRORCHAR|NOPARITY|BITS8 MR1 equ 13H ; MR1 equ %00010011 *MR2 equ NORMAL|TXRTSNO|CTSCTLNO|STOP1 MR2 equ 07H ; MR2 equ %00000111 * * Commands for CSREG * B9600 equ 0BBH ; B9600 equ %10111011 * BURNRAM equ 1400H ; where EEPROM routine goes * * psymon dcb offsets dcblnk equ 0 ; ptr to next dcb in chain dcbdid equ 2 ; ascii 2 char device id dcbdvr equ 4 ; device driver address dcbioa equ 6 ; device io address dcberr equ 8 ; error status code dcbext equ 9 ; dcb extension byte count dcbapp equ 10 ; driver dcb appendage * psymon dcb function codes readfn equ 01H ; read writfn equ 02H ; write statfn equ 04H ; read status initfn equ 08H ; init the 68681 baudfn equ 10H ; set baud rate (for 68681 only) * psymon ram definitions (mp-a2 version) org ram * psymon internal stack (& register) space rmb 800H ; stack space stack: regc: rmb 1 ; condition code register rega: rmb 1 ; a register regb: rmb 1 ; b register regd: rmb 1 ; dp register regx: rmb 2 ; x register regy: rmb 2 ; y register regu: rmb 2 ; u register regp: rmb 2 ; pc * psymon breakpoint table bptabl: rmb 30 ; space for 10 breakpoints bptend: * psymon work areas memptr: rmb 2 ; pointer for M command usrtbl: rmb 2 ; address of user command table comand: rmb 1 ; command char storage cksum: rmb 1 ; load & save checksum begadd: rmb 2 ; begin address for save endadd: rmb 2 ; end address for save offsetflg: rmb 1 offset: rmb 2 stkptr: rmb 2 ; contents of stack pointer * the psymon console dcb condcb: rmb 10 ; no extensions * psymon dcb pointers dcbchn: rmb 2 ; base of dcb chain cidcb: rmb 2 ; console input dcb cedcb: rmb 2 ; console echo dcb codcb: rmb 2 ; console output dcb tpdcb: rmb 2 ; cassette tape dcb * psymon vectors swi3v: rmb 2 ; software interrupt 3 swi2v: rmb 2 ; software interrupt 2 firqv: rmb 2 ; fast interrupt request irqv: rmb 2 ; interrupt request swiv: rmb 2 ; software interrupt nmiv: rmb 2 ; non-maskable interrupt restrt: rmb 2 ; re-entry into psymon * psymon rom coding org 0F800H ; rom1 ************************************************* * psymon initialization ************************************************* init: ld s #stack ; set up stack pointer tfr s x ; point x at stack init1: clr ,x+ ; clear a byte cmp x #condcb+2 ; all fields clear? bne init1 ; loop if not lea y ramint,pcr ; point to ram data init2: ld d ,y++ ; move 2 bytes st d ,x++ cmp x #restrt+2 ; end of ram? bne init2 ; loop if not ld x #condcb ; point to dcb ld b #initfn lbsr reqio ; reset acia ld x #termnl ld a INPORT,x bit a #RUNSYS ; Run the system ROM? bne monent ld a rom2 ; check for second rom cmp a #'V' ; is there a version code there? bne monent ; branch if not jmp rom2+4 ; else call second rom ************************************************* * psymon user entry ************************************************* monent: ld s #stack ; set stack pointer st s stkptr ************************************************* * get command ************************************************* getcmd: lea x prompt,pcr ; display prompt lbsr pstrng lbsr inchr ; input command character cmp a #'a' blo getupper and a #0DFH ; convert to upper getupper: bsr lookup ; look it up bne getcmd ; loop if not found lbsr outsp ; output a space jsr [0,x] ; call command routine bra getcmd ; go back for more prompt: fcb cr,lf str "cmd" fcb '?'+80H ; end of string ************************************************* * look up command in table ************************************************* lookup: ld y #comand ; point y at command st a ,y ; save command character ld x usrtbl ; get user table address beq look1 ; branch if none bsr search ; else search user table beq serchx ; go if found look1: lea x cmdtbl,pcr ; search internal table ************************************************* * general table search * * entry requirements: x - points to table * y - points to item * first byte of table must * contain item length * last byte must be ff * * exit conditions: c - z set if found, clear * if not found * x - points to address of routine * for match * a,b - changed * ************************************************* search: ld b ,x+ ; get item length serch1: bsr compar ; compare current item abx ; advance to next item beq serchx ; exit if match lea x 2,x ; step over address tst ,x ; end of table? bpl serch1 ; loop if not serchx: rts ************************************************* * general string compare * * entry requirements: x - address of string 1 * y - address of string 2 * b - length of strings * * exit conditions: c - set per compare 1:2 * b,x,y - unchanged * a - changed * ************************************************* compar: pshs b x y ; save registers comp1: ld a ,x+ ; get next char cmp a ,y+ ; compare it bne comp2 ; exit if unmatched dec b ; decrement loop count bne comp1 comp2: puls b x y pc ; restore registers & return ************************************************* * load program from tape, with optional load address ************************************************* tload: clr offsetflg lbsr gethex ; get optional offset value beq tload0 st x offset ld a #1 st a offsetflg tload0: ld x cedcb ; save default echo mode pshs x clr a ; set d to 0 clr b st d cedcb ; set no echo bsr load ; load the tape puls x ; restore echo mode st x cedcb tst cksum ; any errors? beq loadx ; branch if not ************************************************* * display error indicator of '?' ************************************************* error: ld a #'?' ; display error indicator lbra outchr ************************************************* * load program in hex format * * entry requirements: none * * exit conditions: all registers changed * cksum non-zero if error * ************************************************* load: tfr s y ; mark stack for error recovery load1: lbsr inchr ; get a character load2: cmp a #'S' ; start of record? bne load1 ; loop if not lbsr inchr ; get another character cmp a #'9' ; end of load? beq loadx ; branch if yes cmp a #'1' ; start of record? bne load2 ; loop if not clr cksum ; init checksum bsr inbyte ; read length sub a #2 ; adjust it tfr a b ; save in b bsr inbyte ; get address hi st a ,--s ; save on stack bsr inbyte ; get address lo st a 1,s ; put on stack puls x ; address now in x tst offsetflg beq load3 exg d x sub d offset ; subtract from given load address exg d x load3: bsr inbyte ; read a byte dec b ; decrement count beq load4 ; branch if done st a ,x ; store byte cmp a ,x+ ; verify good store bne load5 ; branch if error bra load3 load4: inc cksum ; check checksum beq load1 ; loop if good load5: ld a #0ffH ; set error flag st a cksum tfr y s ; restore stack loadx: rts ************************************************* * input a byte ************************************************* inbyte: bsr inhex ; get hex digit beq load4 ; branch if error asl a ; shift to ms half asl a asl a asl a pshs a ; save digit bsr inhex ; get another digit beq load4 ; branch if error add a ,s ; combine halves st a ,s ; save on stack add a cksum ; add to checksum st a cksum puls a pc ; get result & return ************************************************* * get hex number from console * * entry requirements: none * * exit conditions: a - last char input * b - hex digit count * x - hex number * c - set according to b * ************************************************* gethex: clr b ; init digit count & result ld x #0 gethx1: bsr inhex ; get a digit beq gethx2 ; go if not hex exg d x ; old result to a,b asl b ; shift left 1 digit rol a asl b rol a asl b rol a asl b rol a exg d x ; replace result lea x a,x ; add in new digit inc b ; add to digit count bra gethx1 ; loop for more gethx2: tst b ; set/reset z flag rts ************************************************* * get hex digit from console * * entry requirements: none * * exit conditions: a - hex digit or non-hex * c - z flag set if a not hex * all other regs preserved * ************************************************* inhex: bsr inchr ; get a character cmp a #'a' blo inhexupper and a #0DFH ; convert to upper inhexupper: pshs a ; save it sub a #30H ; convert to binary bmi inhex2 ; branch if not numeric cmp a #09H ; greater than 9? bls inhex1 ; branch if not sub a #07H ; else convert letter inhex1: cmp a #0fH ; greater than 15? bls inhex3 ; branch if not inhex2: ld a ,s ; get original char back inhex3: cmp a ,s+ ; set/reset z flag rts ************************************************* * console input routine * * entry requirements: none * * exit conditions: a - character with parity removed * all other regs except c preserved * ************************************************* inchr: pshs b x ; save registers ld x cidcb ; point to input dcb ld b #readfn ; set up for read bsr reqio ; read a character and a #7fH ; remove parity ld x cedcb ; point to echo dcb pshs a ; save character bne outch1 ; branch if echo puls a b x pc ; else restore regs & return ************************************************* * console output routine * * entry requirements: a - character to be output * * exit conditions: all registers preserved except c * ************************************************* outchr: pshs a b x ; save registers ld x codcb ; point to output dcb outch1: ld b #writfn ; set function bsr reqio ; output the character puls a b x pc ; restore regs & return ************************************************* * perform io requests * * entry requirements: a - driver parameter * b - function code * x - dcb address * * exit conditions: a - driver result * all other regs except c preserved * ************************************************* reqio: pshs b x y ; save registers jsr [dcbdvr,x] ; call driver puls b x y pc ; restore regs & return ************************************************* * display double byte * * entry requirements: a,b - double byte to print * * exit conditions: all regs preserved but c * ************************************************* dspdby: bsr outhex ; display a as 2 hex digits exg a b bsr dspsby ; display b as 2 hex digits exg a b ; restore a & b rts ************************************************* * display a byte and space * * entry requirements: a - byte to be displayed * * exit conditions: all regs but c preserved * ************************************************* dspsby: bsr outhex ; display byte in a ************************************************* * output a space to the console * * * * entry requirements: none * * * * exit conditions: all registers reserved * * except c * * * ************************************************* outsp: pshs a ; save a register ld a #sp ; output a space ************************************************* * output character, restore a, & return * ************************************************* outchx: bsr outchr ; display character puls a pc ; restore & exit ************************************************* * display a register as 2 hex digits * * * * entry requirements: a - byte to display * * * * exit conditions: all registers preserved * * except c * * * ************************************************* outhex: pshs a ; save the byte lsr a ; get ms byte lsr a lsr a lsr a bsr outdig ; display it ld a ,s ; get ls digit bsr outdig ; display it puls a pc ; restore a & return ************************************************* * display a hex digit * ************************************************* outdig: and a #0fH ; mask off digit add a #30H ; convert to ascii cmp a #39H ; bigger than 9? bls outchr ; go if not add a #07H ; convert to letter bra outchr ; print and exit ************************************************* * print a string to the console * * * * entry conditions: x - points to string * * last byte has bit 7 on * * * * exit conditions: x - points 1 byte past end * * a,c - changed * * * ************************************************* pstrng: ld a ,x ; get a character and a #7fH ; mask off bsr outchr ; display it tst ,x+ ; was it last? bpl pstrng ; loop if not rts ************************************************* * print cr/lf on console * * * * entry requirements: none * * * * exit conditions: all registers preserved * * except c * * * ************************************************** crlf: pshs a ; save a register ld a #cr ; output cr bsr outchr ld a #lf ; output lf & exit bra outchx ************************************************** * save program on tape * ************************************************** tsave: lbsr gethex ; get start address beq tsave2 ; go if none st x begadd ; save start lbsr gethex ; get end address bne tsave1 ; go if entered ld x begadd ; duplicate address inc b ; set address indicator tsave1: st x endadd ; save end tsave2: pshs a ; save terminator tst b ; any address entered? beq tsave3 ; go if not bsr save ; save the program tsave3: puls a ; get terminator cmp a #cr ; was it return? bne tsave4 ; go if not ld b #'9' ; output s9 record bsr outsn tsave4: rts ************************************************* * save a program in hex * * * * entry requirements: save addresses are in * * begaddr & endaddr * * * * exit conditions: all registers change * * * ************************************************* save: ld x begadd ; point at first byte save1: ld b #'1' ; begin new s1 record bsr outsn clr cksum ; init checksum ld d endadd ; calculate bytes to save pshs x sub d ,s++ tst a ; greater than 255? bne save2 ; go if yes cmp b #16 ; less than full record? blo save3 ; go if yes save2: ld b #15 ; set full record size save3: inc b ; correct record size tfr b a ; output record size add a #3 ; adjust for address,count bsr outbyt pshs x ; address to stack puls a ; output address high bsr outbyt puls a ; output address low bsr outbyt save4: ld a ,x+ ; save a data byte bsr outbyt dec b ; loop until 0 bne save4 ld a cksum ; get checksum com a ; compliment it because it was good bsr outbyt ; output it lea y -1,x ; cmp y endadd bne save1 ; loop if not rts ************************************************ * output byte as hex and add to checksum * ************************************************ outbyt: lbsr outhex ; output byte as hex add a cksum ; add to checksum st a cksum rts ************************************************ * output 'S' tape record headers * ************************************************ outsn: lbsr crlf ; begin new line ld a #'S' ; output 'S' header lbsr outchr tfr b a ; record type to a lbra outchr ************************************************ * memory examine and change * ************************************************ memec: lbsr gethex ; get address bne memec1 ; go if good ld x memptr ; use previous memec1: st x memptr ; update ram pointer lbsr crlf ; begin new line tfr x d ; display address lbsr dspdby ld a ,x+ ; get contents lbsr dspsby ; display them tfr x y ; save address in y lbsr gethex ; get change data exg d x ; save delim, get new beq memec2 ; go if no change st b -1,y ; update memory cmp b -1,y ; verify good store beq memec2 ; go if good store lbsr error ; display error memec2: tfr x d ; get delimiter in a tfr y x ; get next address in x cmp a #cr ; end of update? beq memec3 ; go if yes cmp a #':' ; backing up? bne memec1 ; loop if not lea x ,--x ; back up 2 bra memec1 ; continue memec3: rts ************************************************ * memory change * ************************************************ change: lbsr gethex ; get address bne change1 ; go if good ld x memptr ; use previous change1: st x memptr ; update ram pointer lbsr crlf ; begin new line tfr x d ; display address lbsr dspdby lea x 1,x tfr x y ; save address in y lbsr gethex ; get change data exg d x ; save delim, get new beq change2 ; go if no change st b -1,y ; update memory change2: tfr x d ; get delimiter in a tfr y x ; get next address in x cmp a #cr ; end of update? beq change3 ; go if yes cmp a #':' ; backing up? bne change1 ; loop if not lea x ,--x ; back up 2 bra change1 ; continue change3: rts **** * eeprom * Rather specialized code to burn EEPROMs * **** eeprom: lea x burnrom,pcr ; Copy ROM EEPROM code to RAM ld y #BURNRAM ; Where RAM portion will be ld b #2AH ; endburnrom-burnrom+1 prom0: ld a ,x+ ; copy code to ram st a ,y+ dec b bne prom0 * lbsr gethex ; read hex # for Source object beq promerror ; if none given this is error st x begadd lbsr gethex ; get second hex # tfr x d sub d begadd ; ensure is above start address blo promerror tfr d y ; save # bytes to copy lea y 1,y ; bump # bytes to copy lbsr gethex ; get destination address beq promerror ; none given, give up. tfr x u ld x begadd jsr BURNRAM promerror: rts * * This code is copied into RAM * it is called with * x -> source address of data to be written to eprom * u -> destination eprom address * y -> number of bytes to write * burnrom: pshs x ld x #termnl ld a #0 st a OPCR,x ; set all bits for output ld a #18H ; %11000 ; clear bits 3 + 4 to enable ROM for writes st a SETOP,x puls x burnnext: ld b ,x+ st b ,u burnpoll: ld a ,u ; keep looping pshs b ; until dest byte = source byte cmp a ,s+ bne burnpoll lea u 1,u ; bump dest. lea y -1,y ; bump down byte counter bne burnnext ld x #termnl ld a #18H ; %11000 ; reset bits 3 + 4 to disable ROM for writes st a RESETOP,x rts endburnrom: ************************************************ * go to address * ************************************************ go: ld s stkptr ; set up stack lbsr gethex ; get target address beq go1 ; go if none st x regp go1: ld x regp st x 10,s ; store in pc on stack ld a regc or a #80H ; set 'e' flag in cc st a ,s ld a rega ; set 'a' reg st a 1,s ld a regb st a 2,s ld a regd st a 3,s ld d regx st d 4,s ld d regy st d 6,s ld d regu st d 8,s intret: rti ; load registers and go *********************************************** * breakpoint (software interrupt) trap * ************************************************ brkpnt: ld x 10,s ; get program counter lea x -1,x ; decrement by 1 st x 10,s ; replace on stack ld b #0FFH ; $ff flag for single removal lbsr rembk ; remove breakpoint ************************************************ * interrupt (hardware/software) trap * ************************************************ trap: st s stkptr ; save stack pointer lbsr crlf ; begin new line bsr regdmp ; dump registers lbra getcmd ; get next command ************************************************ * register examine and change * ************************************************ regec: lbsr inchr ; get register to examine cmp a #'a' blo regupper and a #0DFH ; convert to upper regupper: lbsr crlf ; begin new line clr b ; clear offset count lea x regids,pcr ; point to register id string regec1: cmp a b,x ; check register name beq regec2 ; go if found inc b ; advance count cmp b #11 ; end of list? bls regec1 ; loop if not bra regdmp ; bad id - dump all regec2: pshs b ; save offset bsr rdump ; display the reg & contents lbsr gethex ; get new value puls b ; restore offset beq regecx ; go if no change lea y b,y ; point to reg on stack cmp b #3 ; single byte reg? tfr x d ; get new data in a,b bls regec3 ; go if single st a ,y+ ; store ms byte regec3: st b ,y ; store ls byte regecx: rts regids: str "CABDXXYYUUPP" ************************************************ * complete register dump * ************************************************ regdmp: lea x regids,pcr ; point to id string clr b ; clear offset counter rgdmp1: ld a b,x ; get reg name bsr rdump ; display it inc b ; bump to next reg cmp b #11 ; all printed? bls rgdmp1 ; loop if not ld a #'S' ; display stack id bsr dspid ld y #stkptr-12 ; y+b=>stkptr bra rdump1 ************************************************ * display register contents * ************************************************ rdump: bsr dspid ; display register id ld y stkptr ; point y at stack cmp b #3 ; single byte reg? bls rdump2 ; go if yes rdump1: ld a b,y ; display ms byte lbsr outhex inc b ; advance offset rdump2: ld a b,y ; display a byte lbra dspsby ************************************************ * display register id * ************************************************ dspid: lbsr outchr ; display reg name ld a #'=' ; display '=' lbra outchr ************************************************ * set a breakpoint * ************************************************ setbk: lbsr gethex ; get address beq dspbk ; go if none entered bsr initbp ; point y at bp table setbk1: ld d ,y ; empty slot? beq setbk2 ; go if yes bsr nextbp ; advance to next slot bne setbk1 ; loop if not end bra dspbk ; exit setbk2: st x ,y ; save address beq dspbk ; go if address = 0 ld a ,x ; get contents st a 2,y ; save in table ld a #3fH ; swi op code st a ,x ; set break ************************************************ * display all breakpoints * ************************************************ dspbk: lbsr crlf ; begin new line bsr initbp ; point y at bp table dspbk1: ld d ,y ; get address of bp beq dspbk2 ; go if inactive lbsr dspdby ; display address dspbk2: bsr nextbp ; advance pointer bne dspbk1 ; loop if not end rts ************************************************ * initialize breakpoint table pointer * ************************************************ initbp: ld y #bptabl ; point y at bp table rts ************************************************ * advance breakpoint table pointer * ************************************************ nextbp: lea y 3,y ; advance to next entry cmp y #bptend ; check for end of table rts ************************************************ * unset a breakpoint * ************************************************ unsbk: lbsr gethex ; get address ************************************************ * remove one or more breakpoints * ************************************************ rembk: bsr initbp ; point y at bp table rembk1: tst b ; remove all? beq rembk2 ; go if yes cmp x ,y ; find address? beq unset ; go if yes bra rembk3 ; loop if no rembk2: bsr unset ; unset it rembk3: bsr nextbp ; advance pointer bne rembk1 ; loop if not end rts ************************************************* * remove a breakpoint * ************************************************* unset: ld x ,y ; get address of bp beq unset1 ; go if inactive ld a 2,y ; get contents st a ,x ; replace bp clr 0,y ; mark bp inactive clr 1,y unset1: rts ************************************************* * terminal driver (acia) * ************************************************* termdr: clr dcberr,x ; no errors possible ld x dcbioa,x ; get i/o address lsr b ; read function? bcs termrd ; go if yes lsr b ; write functions? bcs termwt ; go if yes lsr b ; status function? bcs termst ; go if yes lsr b ; init function? bcc term1 ; go if not ld b #RESETRX st b CREG,x ld b #RESETTX st b CREG,x ld b #RESETMR st b CREG,x ld b #MR1 st b MREG,x ; This store flips MREG to MR2 ld b #MR2 st b MREG,x ld b #B9600 st b CSREG,x ld b #ENABLE ; enable RX and TX st b CREG,x term1: rts termrd: ld b SREG,x ; get status bit b #RXRDY beq termrd ; loop if no input ld a RHR,x ; get character rts termwt: ld b SREG,x ; get status bit b #TXRDY ; ready for output? beq termwt ; loop if not st a THR,x ; output character rts termst: ld a SREG,x ; get status and a #0FH ; $F mask off ready bits rts ************************************************ * psymon command table * ************************************************ cmdtbl: fcb 1 ; item length fcb 'M' ; memory examine/change fdb memec fcb 'O' ; memory change fdb change fcb 'E' ; EEPROM burn! fdb eeprom fcb 'G' ; goto address fdb go fcb 'L' ; program load fdb tload fcb 'S' ; program save fdb tsave fcb 'R' ; register examine/change fdb regec fcb 'B' ; set/print breakpoints fdb setbk fcb 'U' ; unset breakpoints fdb unsbk fcb 0ffH ; end sentinel ************************************************ * ram initialization data * ************************************************ ramint: str "cn" ; console dcb id fdb termdr ; console driver fdb termnl ; console I/O address fdb 0 ; error status, ext fdb condcb ; dcb chain pointer fdb condcb ; dcb pointers fdb condcb fdb condcb fdb condcb fdb trap ; interrupt vectors fdb trap fdb intret fdb trap fdb brkpnt fdb trap fdb monent ************************************************ * interrupt handlers * ************************************************ hwswi3: jmp [swi3v] ; software interrupt 3 hwswi2: jmp [swi2v] ; software interrupt 2 firq: jmp [firqv] ; fast interrupt request hwirq: jmp [irqv] ; interrupt request hwswi: jmp [swiv] ; software interrupt nmi: jmp [nmiv] ; non-maskable interrupt ************************************************ * software vectors * ************************************************ org 0FFE0H ; $ffe0 fdb dspsby ; display single byte fdb dspdby ; display double byte fdb gethex ; get hex number from console fdb pstrng ; print string to console fdb inchr ; input character fdb outchr ; output character fdb reqio ; perform I/O request fdb monent ; monitor re-entry ************************************************ * hardware vectors * ************************************************ fdb init ; reserved by motorola fdb hwswi3 ; software interrupt 3 fdb hwswi2 ; software interrupt 2 fdb firq ; fast interruupt request fdb hwirq ; interrupt request fdb hwswi ; software interrupt fdb nmi ; non-maskable interrupt fdb init ; restart end From lawrence at ljw.me.uk Tue Oct 2 14:51:55 2018 From: lawrence at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 21:51:55 +0200 Subject: 6809 Monitor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7f3e488e-f0f4-eb2e-45c4-28ae9da8ad61@ljw.me.uk> On 02/10/18 21:24, tim lindner via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone have source to a 6809 monitor program? > > I'm looking for something I can make work in a CoCo. > > Functionality I'm looking for is something that will let me read and > write to memory. > There is a listing of ASSIST09 in this Motorola book: http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene/Genes-os9-stf/MC6809-MC6809E%208-Bit%20Microprocessor%20Programming%20Manual%20(Motorola%20Inc.)%201981.pdf This might be overkill, as it has single-step, breakpoints etc. If you type it in, note that the listing omits the second and subsequent hex bytes for constants (FCB) ! LJW -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk Ph +41(0)79 926 1036 http://www.ljw.me.uk From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Oct 2 15:08:22 2018 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 16:08:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 6809 Monitor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Oct 2018, tim lindner via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone have source to a 6809 monitor program? > > I'm looking for something I can make work in a CoCo. > > Functionality I'm looking for is something that will let me read and > write to memory. If you're up for a disassembly challage, there's a BIN file in Don Maslin's archive for CBUG. Not sure if it's a ROM image or an executable. https://amaus.org/static/S100/people/don%20maslin/AARDVARK_Tape_Backups/maslin_c_d_10apr97/ddrive/sydex/tandy/ Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Oct 2 15:31:27 2018 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 13:31:27 -0700 Subject: 6809 Monitor In-Reply-To: <7f3e488e-f0f4-eb2e-45c4-28ae9da8ad61@ljw.me.uk> References: <7f3e488e-f0f4-eb2e-45c4-28ae9da8ad61@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <4e453362-acb2-33e6-1c01-c69b1a383e07@jwsss.com> On 10/2/2018 12:51 PM, Lawrence Wilkinson via cctalk wrote: > On 02/10/18 21:24, tim lindner via cctalk wrote: >> Does anyone have source to a 6809 monitor program? >> >> I'm looking for something I can make work in a CoCo. >> >> Functionality I'm looking for is something that will let me read and >> write to memory. >> > There is a listing of ASSIST09 in this Motorola book: > http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene/Genes-os9-stf/MC6809-MC6809E%208-Bit%20Microprocessor%20Programming%20Manual%20(Motorola%20Inc.)%201981.pdf > > This might be overkill, as it has single-step, breakpoints etc. > > If you type it in, note that the listing omits the second and > subsequent hex bytes for constants (FCB) ! > > LJW > If you look at page B-65 (pdf 189) where it mentions "Start NMI Timeout", there is a bit of hardware you have to add to the design, and set up and control the NMI.? The hardware counts cycles and applies the NMI right after you go to the opcode to be traced, and sends you back into the monitor via NMI. I did a quick scan and didn't see what board they assume for a reference design which may have the NMI trace part of the board. We had an option board which would kill the main firmware and add a debugger, this hardware, and a serial port to a controller we had, which turned any board into a debugging system.? There was another slight mod and a diagnostic firmware we also had on an addon board to allow testing the peripheral we were controlling, and run diagnostics on other hardware. I had a lot of fun getting this monitor going, and a friend implemented a Forth for the diagnostic system for scripting. Thanks Jim From drb at msu.edu Tue Oct 2 15:39:21 2018 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2018 16:39:21 -0400 Subject: 6809 Monitor In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 02 Oct 2018 12:24:47 -0700.) References: Message-ID: <20181002203921.90F1BA585F1@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Does anyone have source to a 6809 monitor program? > I'm looking for something I can make work in a CoCo. > Functionality I'm looking for is something that will let me read and > write to memory. Sources to the BUFFALO, ASSIST09 and MONDEB09 monitors are included in the Alan Baldwin's ASxxxx package. De From tingox at gmail.com Tue Oct 2 18:18:26 2018 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 01:18:26 +0200 Subject: 6809 Monitor In-Reply-To: <20181002203921.90F1BA585F1@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20181002203921.90F1BA585F1@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: Also, there is this: https://github.com/electronalan/Colormon and a monitor in here too: https://github.com/6809/sbc09 HTH On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 10:39 PM Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > > > Does anyone have source to a 6809 monitor program? > > > I'm looking for something I can make work in a CoCo. > > > Functionality I'm looking for is something that will let me read and > > write to memory. > > Sources to the BUFFALO, ASSIST09 and MONDEB09 monitors are included in > the Alan Baldwin's ASxxxx package. > > De -- mvh Torfinn From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Oct 2 18:27:36 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 17:27:36 -0600 Subject: Ethernet names... In-Reply-To: <21940084-8ff9-e483-74c4-a342839c136a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <21940084-8ff9-e483-74c4-a342839c136a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 2, 2018, 11:35 Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Does anybody know names / terms that correspond to the original 3 Mbps > Ethernet? > > I.e. 10 Mbps Ethernet is also knows as Ethernet II (2) and D.I.X. (for > Digital, Intel, and Xerox). > > Was the first 3 Mbps Ethernet simply called "Ethernet" with an implicit > "I" (1)? Was there a name to differentiate it from D.I.X.? > 3 Mbps Ethernet is _NOT_ Ethernet I. Both Ethernet I and II were 10 Mbps DIX standards, with II having only minor differences from I. 3 Mbps was sometimes referred to as experimental Ethernet, but AFAIK the only official name was "Ethernet". The best way to refer to it is probably "3 Mbps Ethernet". From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Oct 2 18:45:44 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 17:45:44 -0600 Subject: Ethernet names... In-Reply-To: References: <21940084-8ff9-e483-74c4-a342839c136a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 2, 2018, 11:47 Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Ethernet was the name given to the Alto (XEROX) Aloha Network It wasn't an Aloha Network. created (?) > by Bob Metcalff (sp?), which was based/inspired by an improved version of > the ALOHANET used by the U of Hawaii. In their CACM paper, Metcalfe and Boggs credit the Aloha Network, but Ethernet was an entirely new network design, not an incremental improvement to Aloha Network. I think Ethernet was a nickname, > I wasn't there, but I've never seen any source claim that it was a nickname. eventually becoming the official name of what was originally the Alto Aloha > Network. > I've never heard of an Alto being connected to an Aloha Network, nor of any network inside Xerox being called "Aloha". From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Oct 2 18:49:52 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 17:49:52 -0600 Subject: Rack-mount or tabletop version of DEC RX50 floppy drive? Message-ID: Did DEC offer a rack-mount or tabletop box version of the RX50 floppy drive, as they did with e.g. the TU58 and TK50 tape drives? I'm wondering how they expected the RX50 drive to be packaged when used with a Unibus PDP-11 via the RUX50 controller. From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Oct 2 18:55:45 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 16:55:45 -0700 Subject: Rack-mount or tabletop version of DEC RX50 floppy drive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 4:50 PM Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > Did DEC offer a rack-mount or tabletop box version of the RX50 floppy > drive, as they did with e.g. the TU58 and TK50 tape drives? I'm wondering > how they expected the RX50 drive to be packaged when used with a Unibus > PDP-11 via the RUX50 controller. > Yes: We've got an 11/84 with a DEC-branded rack-mount enclosure for a pair of RX50 drives. I can take some pictures if you'd like. - Josh From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 2 19:23:47 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 19:23:47 -0500 Subject: Rack-mount or tabletop version of DEC RX50 floppy drive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 6:50 PM Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > Did DEC offer a rack-mount or tabletop box version of the RX50 floppy > drive, as they did with e.g. the TU58 and TK50 tape drives? Yes. > I'm wondering > how they expected the RX50 drive to be packaged when used with a Unibus > PDP-11 via the RUX50 controller. We had an external RX50 on our 11/750 at work (so we could cut floppies for our MicroVAX customers right from our main machine). The box was the typical external DEC 5.25" drive box of the day, also used for TK50 and RD5x drives - it could take a black sled, like the kind used with the BA23, and had a PSU inside next to the drive. In the back was a transition board that was different depending on the drive type, but typically had between 1 and 3 DD50-P connectors. We had a 10' DD50P cable that went from the back of the drive box to an I/O bulkhead plate on the 11/750, then an internal flat cable to the RUX50 controller. I don't know the part number for the box, but with the cover off, they looked like this: https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images3/1/0816/09/dec-vax-pdp-rd-tk-drive-shelf_1_2c22716c08caa3df496022a1cd806fce.jpg (This one has the internal I/O board and cables for an RD5x drive.) I happen to have at least 3 of these boxes, all have dead PSUs. Nothing magical in them - 110/220 VAC inputs, and a single 4-pin Molex drive connector with +12V and +5V outputs at a enough amps to drive a TK50 or RD51. We usually positioned the RX50 on top of the 11/750 next to the console terminal so we could log in, fire off some DCL scripts and make some floppies. The cable would have let it sit on a nearby table or in the next rack over, but not any further than that. -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 2 19:47:41 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 17:47:41 -0700 Subject: Ethernet names... In-Reply-To: References: <21940084-8ff9-e483-74c4-a342839c136a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <99c741dc-8835-1197-ea36-518af02f5408@bitsavers.org> On 10/2/18 4:45 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Oct 2, 2018, 11:47 Bill Degnan via cctalk > I've never heard of an Alto being connected to an Aloha Network, nor of any > network inside Xerox being called "Aloha". > I just went back and reviewed every memo I can find that I have access to (going back to March, 1974 when there were three Nova Ethernet boards and two Alto Ethernet boards, and they are consistently calling it "Ethernet". In fact, the word "Aloha" never appears. From mmcgraw74 at gmail.com Tue Oct 2 20:01:33 2018 From: mmcgraw74 at gmail.com (Monty McGraw) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 20:01:33 -0500 Subject: 6809 Monitor In-Reply-To: References: <20181002203921.90F1BA585F1@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: I found this page two days ago - it is a Motorola document for MIKBUG and MINIBUG:includes instructions and source code for both. MINIBUG uses a Motorola ACIA for serial. MIKBUG does bit banged serial through a PIA. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/MP_A/MIKBUG_Index.htm I am porting MINIBUG to Tektronix 4052A/4054A assembly code (assembler program found on a Tekniques library tape). Here is the link to my thread on vcfed about that Assembler: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?65857-Tektronix-4052A-4054A-Assembler-program-and-TECO-text-editor On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 6:18 PM Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Also, there is this: > https://github.com/electronalan/Colormon > and a monitor in here too: https://github.com/6809/sbc09 > HTH > On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 10:39 PM Dennis Boone via cctalk > wrote: > > > > > Does anyone have source to a 6809 monitor program? > > > > > I'm looking for something I can make work in a CoCo. > > > > > Functionality I'm looking for is something that will let me read and > > > write to memory. > > > > Sources to the BUFFALO, ASSIST09 and MONDEB09 monitors are included in > > the Alan Baldwin's ASxxxx package. > > > > De > > > > -- > mvh > Torfinn > From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Oct 2 20:38:03 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 21:38:03 -0400 Subject: Ethernet names... In-Reply-To: References: <21940084-8ff9-e483-74c4-a342839c136a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 7:46 PM Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Oct 2, 2018, 11:47 Bill Degnan via cctalk > wrote: > > > Ethernet was the name given to the Alto (XEROX) Aloha Network > > > It wasn't an Aloha Network. > > There is a difference between Alohanet and the alto aloha network. > created (?) > > by Bob Metcalff (sp?), which was based/inspired by an improved version of > > the ALOHANET used by the U of Hawaii. > > > In their CACM paper, Metcalfe and Boggs credit the Aloha Network, but > Ethernet was an entirely new network design, not an incremental improvement > to Aloha Network. > Inspired by, but I did not claim them to be the same, just for the record. > > I think Ethernet was a nickname, > > > > I wasn't there, but I've never seen any source claim that it was a > nickname. > > I later looked this up to confirm. See where wizards stay up lote by Katie Halner and matthew lyon. > eventually becoming the official name of what was originally the Alto Aloha > > Network. > > > > I've never heard of an Alto being connected to an Aloha Network, nor of any > network inside Xerox being called "Aloha". > Well there you go, now you have b From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Oct 2 21:55:09 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 20:55:09 -0600 Subject: Ethernet names... In-Reply-To: References: <21940084-8ff9-e483-74c4-a342839c136a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 7:38 PM Bill Degnan wrote: > On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 7:46 PM Eric Smith via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I've never heard of an Alto being connected to an Aloha Network, nor of any > >> network inside Xerox being called "Aloha". >> > Well there you go, now you have > Thanks! I stand corrected. From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Oct 2 22:20:11 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 23:20:11 -0400 Subject: Ethernet names... In-Reply-To: References: <21940084-8ff9-e483-74c4-a342839c136a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 10:55 PM Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 7:38 PM Bill Degnan wrote: > > > On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 7:46 PM Eric Smith via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > I've never heard of an Alto being connected to an Aloha Network, nor of > any > > > >> network inside Xerox being called "Aloha". > >> > > Well there you go, now you have > > > > Thanks! I stand corrected. > I think Metcalfe was just giving credit for where he got the idea of letting packets collide like alohanet was doing. He took their idea and improved with collision detection and borrowed the name of his improvements and subsequent network "The Alto Aloha Network" i.e. it was his improved "alto" version of the concept inspired by alohanet. In May 1973 (I later found) he renamed his network system "Ethernet". There were a number of other more established networks out there at the time, this was just the start. I think this whole area of research is very interesting. b From guykd at optusnet.com.au Tue Oct 2 20:37:27 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2018 11:37:27 +1000 Subject: 6809 Monitor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20181003113727.01059870@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 12:24 PM 2/10/2018 -0700, you wrote: >Does anyone have source to a 6809 monitor program? > >I'm looking for something I can make work in a CoCo. > >Functionality I'm looking for is something that will let me read and >write to memory. Attached is the zipped C source code for a 6809 monitor I wrote in the early 1990s. Compiler used was HiTech C. Build files included. It worked, but of course 'there may be bugs.' :) It's fairly generic, so not many changes needed for other CPUs. I also did an 80C196 ver. If the zip file attachment fails, it's online here: http://everist.org/texts/6809_Mon_V2.zip Doco from the MONITOR.C file: /* File: MONITOR.C For machine: Dual 6809 game board. Compiler: Hitech 6809 C. Written: Guy Dunphy, 4/9/94, derived from an earlier version. (by me) This file contains all code for a versatile serial monitor. It is event driven, and time sliced, so it can operate in the background with other CPU tasks. All data is stored big-endian. All serial I/O is via the functions aux_get_ch(), aux_put_ch(). Serial Tx is polled, while Rx can be either polled, or buffered interrupt driven with hardware handshaking (via RTS). See monitor_init(). This monitor can be used in multi CPU systems, where only one CPU has a serial comms interface, and each has different IO/mem maps and codespaces. If there is a means for passing strings between the CPUs, then the one with serial IO is used to run a 'master' copy of the monitor, and the other CPU(s) runs a 'slave' monitor version. The master CPU does all command line entry/edit operations, and can be set to pass complete command lines on to other CPU(s). It also will echo text returned from the slave CPU(s) to the serial interface. To use this file:- * For single CPU operation, just compile it as is. * As a 'master' (talks to a slave), predefine symbol MON_MASTER. * As a 'slave', predefine symbol MON_SLAVE. Monitor commands (See also mon_help_text[] ) ---------------- Multiple cmds allowed on a line, use ';' to separate. Upper/lower case of commands and parameters is not significant. A 'range' may be:- start start end start length (Shorthand form: if length is small and < start.) start L length space (as 1st char) Repeat last command. Execute or re-edit. tab (as 1st char) Repeat 'saved' command. Execute or re-edit. tab (not 1st char) Copy cmd to 'save' buffer. esc (as 1st char) Allow re-edit of following 'repeat' cmd. (... twice ) Kill 'pass cmds to slave' mode. D range Dump mem. D (no other chars) Dump another 64 bytes F[W][I] range data Fill memory. W=word, I=increment. G addr Go (call) to addr M start [data]... Modify mem. data ::= hex_byte | string | char string ::= "text" char ::= 'c R [reg_name = value] Optionally modify register(s), then display all regs. reg_name ::= cc a b d dp x y u pc Z [flag_val] Zot! Set operation mode. Bit flags set are:- b0 Halt system (no return from monitor). b1 Inhibit serial echo. b2 Inhibit serial prompt output. b3 Inhibit all monitor output (incl help). b4 Pass all cmds to slave CPU. ESC,ESC to exit. Examples:- Z Re-initialize monitor. Lose trailing cmds. Z 0 Restore normal operation, continue. Z F Just accept commands, no system, echo, etc. Z 2 Normal, but no echo (ie half duplex). S1ccaaaadddddd....ddss Motorola data record. Load to memory. Each hex line is treated as a command, so there is no special 'load' cmd. Before sending hex, best to do a Z6 or Z7 to stop all other time consuming tasks. When finished, do a Z 0 to restore normal ops. An ASCII ACK ($06) is sent when line processing is complete and no error found. This can be used as an acknowledge. If an error is found, a '?' is returned. See s19_decode(). S0.... and S9.... Header and end records: ignored. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Oct 2 23:55:55 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 22:55:55 -0600 Subject: Ethernet names... In-Reply-To: References: <21940084-8ff9-e483-74c4-a342839c136a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <849a88b4-637a-64d4-2ebd-47907080e8e5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 10/02/2018 05:27 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > 3 Mbps Ethernet is _NOT_ Ethernet I. Both Ethernet I and II were 10 Mbps > DIX standards, with II having only minor differences from I. Okay. Thank you for the correction ~> clarification. Now I'll keep an eye out (but not quite search for) the differences between Ethernet (I) and Ethernet II. > 3 Mbps was sometimes referred to as experimental Ethernet, but AFAIK > the only official name was "Ethernet". ACK > The best way to refer to it is probably "3 Mbps Ethernet". :-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Oct 2 23:58:15 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2018 22:58:15 -0600 Subject: Ethernet names... In-Reply-To: References: <21940084-8ff9-e483-74c4-a342839c136a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <5771cdb8-1b47-2d35-ba9e-527c7156ddd1@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 10/02/2018 07:38 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > I later looked this up to confirm. See where wizards stay up lote by > Katie Halner and matthew lyon. IMHO Where Wizards Stay Up Late is a *WONDERFUL* book. It's been too long since I've read it. Perhaps I should (re)read it (again). Somehow I missed the type of technical details that I'm looking for the last time I read it. Of course, when I'm reading for edutainment reasons, I frequently don't retain hard core details. At least not on the first read. > Well there you go, now you have ;-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Wed Oct 3 07:33:29 2018 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 08:33:29 -0400 Subject: Rack-mount or tabletop version of DEC RX50 floppy drive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't recall for certain, what floppy models were done as externals for the DecMate I or II, but I think there were both RX01 and RX50 boxes as described. I don't recall hard drives til the VT278 desktop box. bb On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 8:32 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 6:50 PM Eric Smith via cctalk > wrote: > > Did DEC offer a rack-mount or tabletop box version of the RX50 floppy > > drive, as they did with e.g. the TU58 and TK50 tape drives? > > Yes. > > > I'm wondering > > how they expected the RX50 drive to be packaged when used with a Unibus > > PDP-11 via the RUX50 controller. > > We had an external RX50 on our 11/750 at work (so we could cut > floppies for our MicroVAX customers right from our main machine). The > box was the typical external DEC 5.25" drive box of the day, also used > for TK50 and RD5x drives - it could take a black sled, like the kind > used with the BA23, and had a PSU inside next to the drive. In the > back was a transition board that was different depending on the drive > type, but typically had between 1 and 3 DD50-P connectors. We had a > 10' DD50P cable that went from the back of the drive box to an I/O > bulkhead plate on the 11/750, then an internal flat cable to the RUX50 > controller. > > I don't know the part number for the box, but with the cover off, they > looked like this: > > https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images3/1/0816/09/dec-vax-pdp-rd-tk-drive-shelf_1_2c22716c08caa3df496022a1cd806fce.jpg > > (This one has the internal I/O board and cables for an RD5x drive.) > > I happen to have at least 3 of these boxes, all have dead PSUs. > Nothing magical in them - 110/220 VAC inputs, and a single 4-pin Molex > drive connector with +12V and +5V outputs at a enough amps to drive a > TK50 or RD51. > > We usually positioned the RX50 on top of the 11/750 next to the > console terminal so we could log in, fire off some DCL scripts and > make some floppies. The cable would have let it sit on a nearby > table or in the next rack over, but not any further than that. > > -ethan From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Oct 3 07:48:58 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 08:48:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Ethernet names... Message-ID: <20181003124858.A59F718C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Eric Smith > 3 Mbps was sometimes referred to as experimental Ethernet, but AFAIK > the only official name was "Ethernet". > The best way to refer to it is probably "3 Mbps Ethernet". I was trying to remember what we called it at MIT (which had one), but my memory was hazy, so I want back and looked at the sources for the packet switch I wrote (which supported the first Ethernet, before the 10Mbit version even came out), and I found (slightly to my suprise) that it was "3Mbit Experimental Ethernet", or just plain "Exerimental Ethernet". (Of course, that was just MIT - other sites may have had different terminology.) No doubt we renamed it once the 10Mbit version showed up - I can probably search for early versions of the code to confirm this, if anyone cares. Anyway, I'd vote for the latter, short name. > From: Bill Degnan > See where wizards stay up lote by Katie Halner and matthew lyon. Interesting! It looks (from the Notes) like this was gleaned from an interview with Metcalfe, and she was _very_ careful (I helped her with the technical details - you can find me in the Acks), so I'd tend to believe it. My _guess_ is that was his early, 'in his head' name for the thing, and when they set out to actually build it, it was re-named 'Ethernet' (as Al's memo search seems to indicate). Noel From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Oct 3 08:03:25 2018 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 08:03:25 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 in russia? In-Reply-To: <5B9AED2F01A48023@rgout07.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) References: <008b01d45a4c$b729c7d0$257d5770$@classiccmp.org> <20181002170109.GD41410@beast.freibergnet.de> <5B9AED2F01A48023@rgout07.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) Message-ID: <007901d45b19$78d67e60$6a837b20$@classiccmp.org> We may have found someone at least on the right continent ;) For those interested, he sent a pic (but haven't looked at it closely to see if the -11 is even in there): http://www.ezwind.net/IMG_0223.JPG J -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod G8DGR via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2018 12:27 PM To: Holm Tiffe ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: PDP-11 in russia? There were plenty of real PDP-11?s that found their way to Russia. Often through front companies in say Vienna. Rod Smallwood Digital Equipment Corporation 1975 ? 1985 Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Holm Tiffe via cctalk Sent: 02 October 2018 18:01 To: Jay West; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP-11 in russia? Jay West via cctalk wrote: > Someone has contacted me about a pdp-11 that controls a "measuring machine > dea epsilon". > > > > It appears that they want to replace the pdp-11 with a "ibm" (I'm guessing a > pc), and then they would give the pdp-11 as a gift. > > > > That is all the info I have. Are there any listmembers in Russia who would > be able to take on a project? > > > > J This for sure isn't a PDP11, it would be an "ELEKTRONIKA 60" I think. This is something like an 11/23 but with metric Connectors, PCBs are a little bit bigger as PDP11's. I do own such a beast, that's a picture from the CPU: https://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/PDP-VAX/E60/E60-01.jpg Other pictures are in the same directory (directory index is allowed). ..it's running RT11 from a 8" RX Floppy clone... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Wed Oct 3 08:44:34 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 14:44:34 +0100 Subject: Rack-mount or tabletop version of DEC RX50 floppy drive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Did DEC offer a rack-mount or tabletop box version of the RX50 floppy >drive, as they did with e.g. the TU58 and TK50 tape drives? I'm wondering >how they expected the RX50 drive to be packaged when used with a Unibus >PDP-11 via the RUX50 controller. We had desktop RX50 and TK50 units for Micro 11/23 and 73s connected to an RQDXE running off an RQDX3 controller. I still have a complete set that work gave me when they retired them in the late 90s. -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk On Wed, 3 Oct 2018 at 00:50, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > Did DEC offer a rack-mount or tabletop box version of the RX50 floppy > drive, as they did with e.g. the TU58 and TK50 tape drives? I'm wondering > how they expected the RX50 drive to be packaged when used with a Unibus > PDP-11 via the RUX50 controller. > From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Oct 3 12:30:30 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 11:30:30 -0600 Subject: Rack-mount or tabletop version of DEC RX50 floppy drive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks to Josh, Ethan, Bob, and Adrian for confirming that there were rack and table-top RX50 drives. It would be nice to get one since I have an RUX50, but having never seen one before, I won't hold my breath. It would also be nice to find the RUX50 manual and print set. From jhj at trnsz.com Wed Oct 3 11:40:39 2018 From: jhj at trnsz.com (Jeffrey H. Johnson) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 12:40:39 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 in russia? In-Reply-To: <008b01d45a4c$b729c7d0$257d5770$@classiccmp.org> References: <008b01d45a4c$b729c7d0$257d5770$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I'd recommend contacting one the guys at https://pdp-11.org.ru/support.pl?lang=en Since Russia is twice the size of the USA, do we know where the machine is located? -- Jeffrey H. Johnson jhj at trnsz.com https://ban.ai/multics > On Oct 2, 2018, at 8:37 AM, Jay West via cctalk wrote: > > Someone has contacted me about a pdp-11 that controls a "measuring machine > dea epsilon". > > > > It appears that they want to replace the pdp-11 with a "ibm" (I'm guessing a > pc), and then they would give the pdp-11 as a gift. > > > > That is all the info I have. Are there any listmembers in Russia who would > be able to take on a project? > > > > J > From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Oct 3 14:31:10 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 12:31:10 -0700 Subject: Looking for HP 1000 A990 backplane jumper board and memory frontplane Message-ID: I have an HP 1000 A900 20-slot box with a working 4 card CPU set (sequencer, data path, cache control, memory controller). I also have a 12990-60102 A990 CPU card that would replace the 4 A900 CPU cards and install in place of the A900 memory controller card. What I don't have is the 12990-60020 jumper board that would install in the A900 backplane instead of the A900 sequencer, data path, and cache control cards, nor a 12230-60001, 12230-60002, 12230-60003, or 12230-60004 memory frontplane to connect the A990 CPU to one or more memory array cards. I'm not very hopeful, but is there any chance anyone on the list happens to have a spare HP 1000 A990 12990-60020 jumper board, and/or a 12230-60001, 12230-60002, 12230-60003, or 12230-60004 memory frontplane that they would be willing to part with? Not expecting these for free. These might be parts that 360 Technologies had before they recently closed up shop, although if they did they probably expected business critical prices for them. (For reference, the HP Museum site has a copy of the HP 1000 A990 Upgrade (HP 12990C) Installation and Service Manual, 12990-90011). From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Wed Oct 3 14:38:37 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 20:38:37 +0100 Subject: Rack-mount or tabletop version of DEC RX50 floppy drive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On 3 Oct 2018, at 18:30, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > > Thanks to Josh, Ethan, Bob, and Adrian for confirming that there were rack > and table-top RX50 drives. It would be nice to get one since I have an > RUX50, but having never seen one before, I won't hold my breath. > > It would also be nice to find the RUX50 manual and print set. Here?s a pic of my RX50 and TK50. I?ve not tried to power them up for years. http://binarydinosaurs.co.uk/DesktopRX50TK50.jpg -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From robert626001 at gmail.com Wed Oct 3 17:19:20 2018 From: robert626001 at gmail.com (Robert) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 17:19:20 -0500 Subject: Looking for HP 1000 A990 backplane jumper board and memory frontplane In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I remember you mentioning wanting one of those when I got my 1000 A900 kit, Glen. I don't have a spare but I'd be willing to take some photos and measurements of mine, if that might help somebody to make one. -- Robert On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 2:31 PM Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > I have an HP 1000 A900 20-slot box with a working 4 card CPU set > (sequencer, data path, cache control, memory controller). I also have > a 12990-60102 A990 CPU card that would replace the 4 A900 CPU cards > and install in place of the A900 memory controller card. > > What I don't have is the 12990-60020 jumper board that would install > in the A900 backplane instead of the A900 sequencer, data path, and > cache control cards, nor a 12230-60001, 12230-60002, 12230-60003, or > 12230-60004 memory frontplane to connect the A990 CPU to one or more > memory array cards. > > I'm not very hopeful, but is there any chance anyone on the list > happens to have a spare HP 1000 A990 12990-60020 jumper board, and/or > a 12230-60001, 12230-60002, 12230-60003, or 12230-60004 memory > frontplane that they would be willing to part with? Not expecting > these for free. > > These might be parts that 360 Technologies had before they recently > closed up shop, although if they did they probably expected business > critical prices for them. > > (For reference, the HP Museum site has a copy of the HP 1000 A990 > Upgrade (HP 12990C) Installation and Service Manual, 12990-90011). From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 3 19:08:29 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 19:08:29 -0500 Subject: Rack-mount or tabletop version of DEC RX50 floppy drive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 12:32 PM Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > Thanks to Josh, Ethan, Bob, and Adrian for confirming that there were rack > and table-top RX50 drives. It would be nice to get one since I have an > RUX50, but having never seen one before, I won't hold my breath. > > It would also be nice to find the RUX50 manual and print set. I have an RUX50 manual on the stack to be scanned. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 3 19:09:09 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 19:09:09 -0500 Subject: Rack-mount or tabletop version of DEC RX50 floppy drive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 2:38 PM Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > Here?s a pic of my RX50 and TK50. I?ve not tried to power them up for years. > http://binarydinosaurs.co.uk/DesktopRX50TK50.jpg That looks entirely familiar. -ethan From dave at 661.org Wed Oct 3 22:51:19 2018 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 03:51:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Bluebox AVR boards available Message-ID: I've finished my work on designing and debugging a PCB to go with my AVR-based bluebox program. Read about it and buy one at https://661.org/proj/bluebox/. This project implements a bluebox in C on AVR microcontrollers. This project is roughly a reimplementation of Don Froulas's PIC-based bluebox, which was written in PIC assembly. The resulting compiled program is intended to be loaded into one of the following circuit boards. Currently the code implements a bluebox, silver box (DTMF dialer with 4th column), redbox, greenbox, and 2600hz pulse dialer. There are 12 memory locations of 41 keystrokes each. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mark.kahrs at gmail.com Wed Oct 3 17:16:39 2018 From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 18:16:39 -0400 Subject: Ethernet names... Message-ID: I was there and it was always called "The Ethernet". When the 10 Mb standard came into being, it was then referred to as "The Experimental Ethernet". If you want to be *really* pedantic, you could refer to it as the "2.94 MHz Ethernet" --- but that would be silly. If you'd like to see how Aloha inspired Metcalfe, read this: http://www.historyofcomputercommunications.info/Book/6/6.7-EthernetRobertMetcalfeXeroxPARC71-75.html From RichA at livingcomputers.org Wed Oct 3 17:34:13 2018 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2018 22:34:13 +0000 Subject: Ethernet names... In-Reply-To: <20181003124858.A59F718C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181003124858.A59F718C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <6cff2417168448009c6e1296e77ae7e9@livingcomputers.org> From: Noel Chiappa Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2018 5:49 AM >> From: Eric Smith >> 3 Mbps was sometimes referred to as experimental Ethernet, but AFAIK >> the only official name was "Ethernet". >> The best way to refer to it is probably "3 Mbps Ethernet". That's what almost we call it here at the museum. We have a Xerox PDP-11 3Mbit Ethernet interface board in the front end of a DEC 1095 running WAITS, and a 3Mbit<->10Mbit bridge device that allows the Altos to talk to WAITS. > I was trying to remember what we called it at MIT (which had one), but my > memory was hazy, so I want back and looked at the sources for the packet > switch I wrote (which supported the first Ethernet, before the 10Mbit version > even came out), and I found (slightly to my suprise) that it was "3Mbit > Experimental Ethernet", or just plain "Exerimental Ethernet". (Of course, that > was just MIT - other sites may have had different terminology.) No doubt we > renamed it once the 10Mbit version showed up - I can probably search for early > versions of the code to confirm this, if anyone cares. Anyway, I'd vote for > the latter, short name. At Stanford, we tended to call it the "PUP Ethernet" after 10Mbit came in. >> From: Bill Degnan >> See where wizards stay up lote by Katie Halner and matthew lyon. > Interesting! It looks (from the Notes) like this was gleaned from an interview > with Metcalfe, and she was _very_ careful (I helped her with the technical > details - you can find me in the Acks), so I'd tend to believe it. > My _guess_ is that was his early, 'in his head' name for the thing, and when > they set out to actually build it, it was re-named 'Ethernet' (as Al's memo > search seems to indicate). Of course, the very first baseband cable network at PARC was 1 megabit/second; It may be that that is what got an Aloha name. But that's *my* guess. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computers: Museum + Labs 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputers.org http://www.LivingComputers.org/ From w9gb at icloud.com Wed Oct 3 20:44:26 2018 From: w9gb at icloud.com (Gregory Beat) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2018 20:44:26 -0500 Subject: Ethernet names... Message-ID: <52926DB7-3398-4087-9BC9-C9CBB6A74C05@icloud.com> Grant - Occasional vague references to ?I?, when Ethernet II was used (as I remember). I assumed the reference was for initial 3 Mbps work at PARC. Gateway Communications started in Irvine, CA (1981?) offering G/Net (~double the 3 Mbps), I remember installing their demonstration system (1982 or 1983?) By 1983, 3Com ThinNet (10-Base-2) released for IBM PCs. University of Iowa graduate college installed one of their first LANs with an Altos sever (8086, 10 MHz). greg == From: Grant Taylor Subject: Ethernet names... Does anybody know names / terms that correspond to the original 3 Mbps Ethernet? I.e. 10 Mbps Ethernet is also knows as Ethernet II (2) and D.I.X. (for Digital, Intel, and Xerox). Was the first 3 Mbps Ethernet simply called "Ethernet" with an implicit "I" (1)? Was there a name to differentiate it from D.I.X.? Grant. . . . unix || die Sent from iPad Air From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Oct 4 02:26:59 2018 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 09:26:59 +0200 Subject: HP1000 A600 Boards available Message-ID: <20181004072659.GA44049@beast.freibergnet.de> Hi, two weeks before I was asked from a friend if it's worth to rescue an HP1000 A600 computer from the stuff available at a local scrapp seller in Erfurt. Of course I've answered yes! Unfortunately someone at the scrap site has pulled some cards and at least in one case a chip fom a card. There is to much missing to rescue this computer..at least my friend has saved some of the pcb's: hier die HP-Kartennummern: 12103-60004 1MB RAM , 2x vorhanden 12005-60012 Ser. Interface 12005-60001 Ser. Interface 02430-60009 drop me a mail if you are interested on buying those cards and give a hint what you want to pay for them. The stuff is located in Weimar, Germany ..Europe. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Oct 4 02:42:43 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 09:42:43 +0200 (CEST) Subject: TK50Z (was: Rack-mount or tabletop version of DEC RX50 floppy drive?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Oct 2018, Adrian Graham wrote: > Here?s a pic of my RX50 and TK50. I?ve not tried to power them up for > years. Speaking of TK50 and since I'm playing with them at the moment, is there any information on the SCSI command set for the TK50Z? My goal is to talk to one on a Linux system, but the TK50Z is special enough that it won't work as a generic SCSI tape drive, at least by default as it seems. Christian From abuse at cabal.org.uk Thu Oct 4 03:31:24 2018 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 10:31:24 +0200 Subject: Ethernet names... In-Reply-To: <21940084-8ff9-e483-74c4-a342839c136a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <21940084-8ff9-e483-74c4-a342839c136a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <20181004083123.hkuih4bijc4ephy4@mooli.org.uk> On Tue, Oct 02, 2018 at 11:34:54AM -0600, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Does anybody know names / terms that correspond to the original 3 Mbps > Ethernet? > I.e. 10 Mbps Ethernet is also knows as Ethernet II (2) and D.I.X. (for > Digital, Intel, and Xerox). > Was the first 3 Mbps Ethernet simply called "Ethernet" with an implicit "I" > (1)? Was there a name to differentiate it from D.I.X.? It was probably just known as "Ethernet". If there's only one kind, why give it a longer name to distinguish it from future variants that may never come to be? My bumph tells me it was called "Experimental Ethernet", but I suspect that's a name given to it in retrospect. "Ethernet I" and "Ethernet II" were 10Mb/s thicknet variants which evolved into the 802.3/10Base5 standards. The exact details of the differences are probably lost in time. Although thicknet is finally dead -- we had to hammer many stakes into the cable to make sure, but managed it in the end -- Ethernet II's layer 2 protocol remains in use in modern IP networks, and contemporary usage of "Ethernet II" refers to just that rather than the older standard. From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Oct 4 10:17:32 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 17:17:32 +0200 Subject: PDP-15 documentation Message-ID: I have now finally concluded the PDP-15 documentation scanning project. Many year ago my father saved a big lot of PDP-15 documentation that was thrown out from Philips in Stockholm. I have over the years scanned documents on request which has ended up at bitsavers. Some docuements were already present on bitsavers. Now I took a stab and finalised this project. All the remaining PDP-15 has now been scanned and I put them here: http://www.datormuseum.se/documentation-software/pdp-15-documentation Many documents already has made its way to bitsavers but many remains. There are DOS-15, XVM/DOS and various general documents such as operators guide, course handouts etc. The only remaining document to scan is the RSX PLUS III reference manual which will be tricky to scan without damage it. Happy reading! From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Oct 4 10:22:04 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 17:22:04 +0200 Subject: Source code listings from REDAC PDP-based PCB layout system. In-Reply-To: <3c27ab05-5e48-5cfa-050d-16f42c6e4522@bitsavers.org> References: <3c27ab05-5e48-5cfa-050d-16f42c6e4522@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Den tis 2 okt. 2018 kl 00:27 skrev Al Kossow via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org>: > I'm interested. > PDP-15 software in any form is pretty rare > > > Good that we have a taker. I have no such scanner available that could possible scan these in a good way. I will retrieve them and pack them and get back when we get close to shipping. /Mattis From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Oct 4 10:59:39 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 09:59:39 -0600 Subject: Ethernet names... In-Reply-To: <20181004083123.hkuih4bijc4ephy4@mooli.org.uk> References: <21940084-8ff9-e483-74c4-a342839c136a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20181004083123.hkuih4bijc4ephy4@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On 10/04/2018 02:31 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > It was probably just known as "Ethernet". If there's only one kind, > why give it a longer name to distinguish it from future variants that > may never come to be? My bumph tells me it was called "Experimental > Ethernet", but I suspect that's a name given to it in retrospect. I agree that the "Experimental" in "Experimental Ethernet" is in fact probably retroactive. > "Ethernet I" and "Ethernet II" were 10Mb/s thicknet variants which evolved > into the 802.3/10Base5 standards. The exact details of the differences > are probably lost in time. The contributions to this thread have satisfied my curiosity / question that "Ethernet (I)" was not the 3 Mbps Experimental Ethernet. > Although thicknet is finally dead -- we had to hammer many stakes into > the cable to make sure, but managed it in the end -- Um ? I'm somewhat reluctant to tell you that there's a Thicknet segment in my basement with transceivers attacked. I've not sent traffic across it /yet/. But I will. ;-) Admittedly, it is purely for edutainment and hobbyist retro-computing / retro-networking reasons. > Ethernet II's layer 2 protocol remains in use in modern IP networks, > and contemporary usage of "Ethernet II" refers to just that rather than > the older standard. Yep. I need to re-read something to see if (a variant of) Ethernet II frames are used for IP on WiFi or if they are closer to 802.2 LLC + SNAP similar to what is used on other, non-Ethernet, 802 networks. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Oct 4 12:07:56 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 11:07:56 -0600 Subject: Ethernet names... In-Reply-To: <849a88b4-637a-64d4-2ebd-47907080e8e5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <21940084-8ff9-e483-74c4-a342839c136a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <849a88b4-637a-64d4-2ebd-47907080e8e5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 10:55 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 10/02/2018 05:27 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > > 3 Mbps Ethernet is _NOT_ Ethernet I. Both Ethernet I and II were 10 Mbps > > DIX standards, with II having only minor differences from I. > > Okay. Thank you for the correction ~> clarification. > > Now I'll keep an eye out (but not quite search for) the differences > between Ethernet (I) and Ethernet II The Ethernet I and II standards are available from Bitsavers: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/xerox/ethernet/ >From the preface of _The Ethernet_ Version 2.0: Version 2.0 of the Ethernet specification reflects the experience of the three corporations in designing equipment to the Version 1.0 specification. Version 2.0 includes network management functions and better defines the details of the physical channel signalling. Version 2.0 is upward compatible with Version 1.0. Equipment designed to the two specifications is interoperable. From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Oct 4 12:14:00 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 11:14:00 -0600 Subject: Ethernet names... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 11:21 PM Mark Kahrs via cctalk wrote: > I was there and it was always called "The Ethernet". When the 10 Mb > standard came into being, it was then referred to as "The Experimental > Ethernet". If you want to be *really* pedantic, you could refer to it as > the "2.94 MHz Ethernet" --- but that would be silly. > > If you'd like to see how Aloha inspired Metcalfe, read this: > > > http://www.historyofcomputercommunications.info/Book/6/6.7-EthernetRobertMetcalfeXeroxPARC71-75.html > Thanks! From that, it sounds like the name "Alto Aloha" was only used during early planning, before CSMA/CD was invented, and that nothing that was actually built ever used that name, contrary to the account in _Where Wizards Stay Up Late_. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Oct 4 12:25:51 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 11:25:51 -0600 Subject: Ethernet names... In-Reply-To: References: <21940084-8ff9-e483-74c4-a342839c136a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <849a88b4-637a-64d4-2ebd-47907080e8e5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <8496ed5d-49a3-2d81-dae0-6aa43e0439d7@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 10/04/2018 11:07 AM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > The Ethernet I and II standards are available from Bitsavers: > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/xerox/ethernet/ Cool. > From the preface of _The Ethernet_ Version 2.0: Version 2.0 of the > Ethernet specification reflects the experience of the three corporations > in designing equipment to the Version 1.0 specification. Version 2.0 > includes network management functions and better defines the details > of the physical channel signalling. Okay. Intriguing. > Version 2.0 is upward compatible with Version 1.0. Equipment designed > to the two specifications is interoperable. My brain is having some trouble unpacking and understanding "upward compatible". - I always think that it should be "new version is /downward/ compatible with the old version" or "the old version is /upward/ compatible with the new version". It's also stumbling on "the two specifications is interoperable". Is that "the (version) two specification is interoperable (with the version one specification)" or "the two specification(s) /are/ interoperable"? This might not make much difference. But my brain trips on are they truly 100% interoperable (as in extra fields in version 2 that version 1 ignores) or is it a case of version 1 only understand version 1 and version 2 is able to pretend to be version 1 when talking to version 1? Sort of like a crude diagram: v1 <--->| v2 v1 |<--->| v2 v1 |<---> v2 Which of the three is it? I'll have to check out the documentation on Bitsavers. Thank you for the link. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Oct 4 12:26:15 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 13:26:15 -0400 Subject: Ethernet names... In-Reply-To: References: <21940084-8ff9-e483-74c4-a342839c136a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <849a88b4-637a-64d4-2ebd-47907080e8e5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <4DE15F80-BA0E-48C5-8D41-2C407591335B@comcast.net> > On Oct 4, 2018, at 1:07 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 10:55 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On 10/02/2018 05:27 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: >>> 3 Mbps Ethernet is _NOT_ Ethernet I. Both Ethernet I and II were 10 Mbps >>> DIX standards, with II having only minor differences from I. >> >> Okay. Thank you for the correction ~> clarification. >> >> Now I'll keep an eye out (but not quite search for) the differences >> between Ethernet (I) and Ethernet II > > > The Ethernet I and II standards are available from Bitsavers: > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/xerox/ethernet/ > > From the preface of _The Ethernet_ Version 2.0: > Version 2.0 of the Ethernet specification reflects the experience of the > three corporations in designing equipment to the Version 1.0 specification. > Version 2.0 includes network management functions and better defines the > details of the physical channel signalling. Version 2.0 is upward > compatible with Version 1.0. Equipment designed to the two specifications > is interoperable. That's sort of accurate. A quick look shows some key differences: V2 adds the "collision presence test" -- verifying the collision detect signal is working. There is also the "jabber timer" -- a watchdog timeout that stops excessively long frames. And V2 introduces the loopback protocol (protocol type 90-00). The collision presence test is somewhat of an interoperability issue: if you attach a V1 transceiver to a V2 NIC, the NIC would complain on every transmit that it didn't get the collision test signal. paul From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Oct 4 12:30:23 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 11:30:23 -0600 Subject: Ethernet names... In-Reply-To: <4DE15F80-BA0E-48C5-8D41-2C407591335B@comcast.net> References: <21940084-8ff9-e483-74c4-a342839c136a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <849a88b4-637a-64d4-2ebd-47907080e8e5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4DE15F80-BA0E-48C5-8D41-2C407591335B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <688e2627-804b-598b-195c-edd79bbab2d6@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 10/04/2018 11:26 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > That's sort of accurate. A quick look shows some key differences: V2 adds > the "collision presence test" -- verifying the collision detect signal > is working. There is also the "jabber timer" -- a watchdog timeout that > stops excessively long frames. And V2 introduces the loopback protocol > (protocol type 90-00). That mostly sounds like the frame formats are the same on the wire and that the differences are in the protocols that use said frame. > The collision presence test is somewhat of an interoperability issue: > if you attach a V1 transceiver to a V2 NIC, the NIC would complain on > every transmit that it didn't get the collision test signal. That makes me wonder about the "heartbeat" switch that I see on older AUI transceivers. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Oct 4 12:39:22 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 13:39:22 -0400 Subject: Ethernet names... In-Reply-To: <688e2627-804b-598b-195c-edd79bbab2d6@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <21940084-8ff9-e483-74c4-a342839c136a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <849a88b4-637a-64d4-2ebd-47907080e8e5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4DE15F80-BA0E-48C5-8D41-2C407591335B@comcast.net> <688e2627-804b-598b-195c-edd79bbab2d6@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <650C23D8-E2C3-41D8-B7AB-A434797927CD@comcast.net> > On Oct 4, 2018, at 1:30 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 10/04/2018 11:26 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> That's sort of accurate. A quick look shows some key differences: V2 adds the "collision presence test" -- verifying the collision detect signal is working. There is also the "jabber timer" -- a watchdog timeout that stops excessively long frames. And V2 introduces the loopback protocol (protocol type 90-00). > > That mostly sounds like the frame formats are the same on the wire and that the differences are in the protocols that use said frame. > >> The collision presence test is somewhat of an interoperability issue: if you attach a V1 transceiver to a V2 NIC, the NIC would complain on every transmit that it didn't get the collision test signal. > > That makes me wonder about the "heartbeat" switch that I see on older AUI transceivers. Yes, I think that's the collision test. So in the OFF position you have a V1 compatible transceiver, ON is needed for V2. paul From imp at bsdimp.com Thu Oct 4 12:43:30 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 11:43:30 -0600 Subject: Ethernet names... In-Reply-To: <650C23D8-E2C3-41D8-B7AB-A434797927CD@comcast.net> References: <21940084-8ff9-e483-74c4-a342839c136a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <849a88b4-637a-64d4-2ebd-47907080e8e5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4DE15F80-BA0E-48C5-8D41-2C407591335B@comcast.net> <688e2627-804b-598b-195c-edd79bbab2d6@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <650C23D8-E2C3-41D8-B7AB-A434797927CD@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:39 AM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Oct 4, 2018, at 1:30 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On 10/04/2018 11:26 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> That's sort of accurate. A quick look shows some key differences: V2 > adds the "collision presence test" -- verifying the collision detect signal > is working. There is also the "jabber timer" -- a watchdog timeout that > stops excessively long frames. And V2 introduces the loopback protocol > (protocol type 90-00). > > > > That mostly sounds like the frame formats are the same on the wire and > that the differences are in the protocols that use said frame. > > > >> The collision presence test is somewhat of an interoperability issue: > if you attach a V1 transceiver to a V2 NIC, the NIC would complain on every > transmit that it didn't get the collision test signal. > > > > That makes me wonder about the "heartbeat" switch that I see on older > AUI transceivers. > > Yes, I think that's the collision test. So in the OFF position you have a > V1 compatible transceiver, ON is needed for V2. > Is that the same as SQE? I always had to turn that bad-boy off or risk collision storms :( Warenr From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Oct 4 13:03:09 2018 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 13:03:09 -0500 Subject: DG microNOVA in Cleveland on CL In-Reply-To: References: <21940084-8ff9-e483-74c4-a342839c136a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <849a88b4-637a-64d4-2ebd-47907080e8e5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4DE15F80-BA0E-48C5-8D41-2C407591335B@comcast.net> <688e2627-804b-598b-195c-edd79bbab2d6@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <650C23D8-E2C3-41D8-B7AB-A434797927CD@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20181004180312.8CFF54E74A@mx2.ezwind.net> https://cleveland.craigslist.org/sys/d/data-general-free-for-good/6714121268.html From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Oct 4 13:16:43 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 14:16:43 -0400 Subject: Ethernet names... In-Reply-To: References: <21940084-8ff9-e483-74c4-a342839c136a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <849a88b4-637a-64d4-2ebd-47907080e8e5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4DE15F80-BA0E-48C5-8D41-2C407591335B@comcast.net> <688e2627-804b-598b-195c-edd79bbab2d6@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <650C23D8-E2C3-41D8-B7AB-A434797927CD@comcast.net> Message-ID: <9511AD1E-55AA-4D57-B665-B6EA203AFECD@comcast.net> > On Oct 4, 2018, at 1:43 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:39 AM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > On Oct 4, 2018, at 1:30 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > ... > > That makes me wonder about the "heartbeat" switch that I see on older AUI transceivers. > > Yes, I think that's the collision test. So in the OFF position you have a V1 compatible transceiver, ON is needed for V2. > > Is that the same as SQE? I always had to turn that bad-boy off or risk collision storms :( > > Warenr I had to look up SQE. http://www.ethermanage.com/ethernet/sqe/sqe.html It's 802-speak for the same signal. That page says you have to turn it off for the transceiver connected to an 802.3 repeater, but it should be on in all other cases. Sounds like the 802.3 people got the transceiver design wrong and that rule is a workaround. There certainly is no similar rule in the Ethernet spec, and repeaters are definitely part of that spec. paul From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Thu Oct 4 13:32:03 2018 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 20:32:03 +0200 Subject: DG microNOVA in Cleveland on CL In-Reply-To: <20181004180312.8CFF54E74A@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <21940084-8ff9-e483-74c4-a342839c136a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <849a88b4-637a-64d4-2ebd-47907080e8e5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4DE15F80-BA0E-48C5-8D41-2C407591335B@comcast.net> <688e2627-804b-598b-195c-edd79bbab2d6@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <650C23D8-E2C3-41D8-B7AB-A434797927CD@comcast.net> <20181004180312.8CFF54E74A@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4fe833bf-dae9-7b7b-0366-ea2711af8e03@greenmail.ch> On 04.10.2018 20:03, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > https://cleveland.craigslist.org/sys/d/data-general-free-for-good/6714121268.html > > A MP/200. 16 bit CPU built with AMD2901. Rare beast, alas mine doesn't post. Powersupply is OK. Lack of schematics / detailed documentations hampers progess.... Jos From ian.primus.ccmp at gmail.com Thu Oct 4 13:50:43 2018 From: ian.primus.ccmp at gmail.com (Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 14:50:43 -0400 Subject: DG microNOVA in Cleveland on CL In-Reply-To: <4fe833bf-dae9-7b7b-0366-ea2711af8e03@greenmail.ch> References: <21940084-8ff9-e483-74c4-a342839c136a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <849a88b4-637a-64d4-2ebd-47907080e8e5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4DE15F80-BA0E-48C5-8D41-2C407591335B@comcast.net> <688e2627-804b-598b-195c-edd79bbab2d6@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <650C23D8-E2C3-41D8-B7AB-A434797927CD@comcast.net> <20181004180312.8CFF54E74A@mx2.ezwind.net> <4fe833bf-dae9-7b7b-0366-ea2711af8e03@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: Someone linked this to me on IRC. I called, but it was already claimed. Just hope it gets to a good home. -Ian On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 2:32 PM jos via cctalk wrote: > > On 04.10.2018 20:03, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > > > https://cleveland.craigslist.org/sys/d/data-general-free-for-good/6714121268.html > > > > > > A MP/200. 16 bit CPU built with AMD2901. > Rare beast, alas mine doesn't post. Powersupply is OK. > Lack of schematics / detailed documentations hampers progess.... > > Jos From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Oct 4 14:37:59 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 15:37:59 -0400 Subject: DG microNOVA in Cleveland on CL In-Reply-To: References: <21940084-8ff9-e483-74c4-a342839c136a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <849a88b4-637a-64d4-2ebd-47907080e8e5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4DE15F80-BA0E-48C5-8D41-2C407591335B@comcast.net> <688e2627-804b-598b-195c-edd79bbab2d6@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <650C23D8-E2C3-41D8-B7AB-A434797927CD@comcast.net> <20181004180312.8CFF54E74A@mx2.ezwind.net> <4fe833bf-dae9-7b7b-0366-ea2711af8e03@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: I got it, awesome, tons of gold to scrap. I then sold the keyboard and threw the terminal over the bridge. I just had to tell the guy I was from the museum of computers in Cleveland. oops sorry I mean I did not get it. ha ha On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 2:51 PM Ian Primus via cctalk wrote: > Someone linked this to me on IRC. I called, but it was already > claimed. Just hope it gets to a good home. > > -Ian > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 2:32 PM jos via cctalk > wrote: > > > > On 04.10.2018 20:03, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > > https://cleveland.craigslist.org/sys/d/data-general-free-for-good/6714121268.html > > > > > > > > > > A MP/200. 16 bit CPU built with AMD2901. > > Rare beast, alas mine doesn't post. Powersupply is OK. > > Lack of schematics / detailed documentations hampers progess.... > > > > Jos > From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Oct 4 14:54:51 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 15:54:51 -0400 Subject: Ethernet names... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > > Thanks! From that, it sounds like the name "Alto Aloha" was only used > during early planning, before CSMA/CD was invented, and that nothing that > was actually built ever used that name, contrary to the account in _Where > Wizards Stay Up Late_. > I must have misrepresented this then, the book does claim Aloha Net to be just a working name in the very beginning. When it got to the beta testing phase it was already called Ethernet b From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Oct 4 15:19:31 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 14:19:31 -0600 Subject: Ethernet names... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 1:55 PM Bill Degnan wrote: > I must have misrepresented this then, the book does claim Aloha Net to be > just a working name in the very beginning. When it got to the beta testing > phase it was already called Ethernet > After you referenced _Where Wizards Stay Up Late_, I reread the relevant portions, and I don't think you misrepresented what the book said. I think the account given in the book may be a bit confused on this point. For example, on page 239: Metcalfe and Lampson, along with Xerox researchers David Boogs and Chuck Thacker, built their first Alto Aloha system in Bob Taylor's lab at Xerox PARC. To their great delight, it worked. In May 1973 Metcalfe suggested a name, [...] My interpretation of that would be that they built it, had something basically working, were calling it Alto Aloha, and then later Metcalfe named in Ethernet. That sequence of events is contradicted by Pelkey, and my guess is that Pelkey is more authoritative on this point. Pelkey describes the name change from Alto Aloha to Ether as happening in May 1973 in agreement with WWSUL, except that in the Pelkey account the Alto network wasn't designed and built until June, _after_ the name change. However, I still think that WWSUL is an excellent book, well worth reading. Eric From linimon at lonesome.com Thu Oct 4 15:34:26 2018 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 20:34:26 +0000 Subject: DG microNOVA in Cleveland on CL In-Reply-To: References: <849a88b4-637a-64d4-2ebd-47907080e8e5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4DE15F80-BA0E-48C5-8D41-2C407591335B@comcast.net> <688e2627-804b-598b-195c-edd79bbab2d6@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <650C23D8-E2C3-41D8-B7AB-A434797927CD@comcast.net> <20181004180312.8CFF54E74A@mx2.ezwind.net> <4fe833bf-dae9-7b7b-0366-ea2711af8e03@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: <20181004203425.GA2897@lonesome.com> On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 03:37:59PM -0400, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > oops sorry I mean I did not get it. dang, and I already had my samurai sword nearly sharpened. mcl From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Oct 4 15:35:16 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 14:35:16 -0600 Subject: Ethernet names... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The typo(s) in the quote are mine, not the book's. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Oct 4 16:36:47 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 15:36:47 -0600 Subject: Ethernet names... In-Reply-To: <9511AD1E-55AA-4D57-B665-B6EA203AFECD@comcast.net> References: <21940084-8ff9-e483-74c4-a342839c136a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <849a88b4-637a-64d4-2ebd-47907080e8e5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4DE15F80-BA0E-48C5-8D41-2C407591335B@comcast.net> <688e2627-804b-598b-195c-edd79bbab2d6@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <650C23D8-E2C3-41D8-B7AB-A434797927CD@comcast.net> <9511AD1E-55AA-4D57-B665-B6EA203AFECD@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6b7ce8ff-71b1-67f7-962b-72a442f757c6@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 10/04/2018 12:16 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > I had to look up SQE. http://www.ethermanage.com/ethernet/sqe/sqe.html > It's 802-speak for the same signal. I agree that it's the same concept and function. Though the link you shared states that there is some timing difference between D.I.X.'s "Collision Presence Test" (CPT) and IEEE's 802.3 "Signal Quality Error" (SQE). > That page says you have to turn it off for the transceiver connected to > an 802.3 repeater, but it should be on in all other cases. Sounds like > the 802.3 people got the transceiver design wrong and that rule is a > workaround. There certainly is no similar rule in the Ethernet spec, > and repeaters are definitely part of that spec. Given that CPT / SQE / HB are between the transceiver and the host NIC, and NOT between the transceiver and the Ethernet, IMHO it makes sense that CPT / SQE / HB should not be used with a repeater. After all, a repeater is going between two (or more?) Ethernet segments. As such, I don't think it's a problem with the specification or design of transceivers. I think the CPT / SQE / HB are in some ways a feedback loop between the transceiver and the NIC to test the collision detection circuitry in the NIC. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From tingox at gmail.com Thu Oct 4 16:47:47 2018 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 23:47:47 +0200 Subject: PDP-15 documentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 5:18 PM Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > > I have now finally concluded the PDP-15 documentation scanning project. > Thanks for doing this! -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Oct 4 17:45:21 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 16:45:21 -0600 Subject: Ethernet names... In-Reply-To: References: <21940084-8ff9-e483-74c4-a342839c136a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <34697340-0fc7-a6e8-e026-94006bfac677@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 10/02/2018 09:20 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > I think Metcalfe was just giving credit for where he got the idea of > letting packets collide like alohanet was doing. He took their idea > and improved with collision detection and borrowed the name of his > improvements and subsequent network "The Alto Aloha Network" i.e. it > was his improved "alto" version of the concept inspired by alohanet. > In May 1973 (I later found) he renamed his network system "Ethernet". > There were a number of other more established networks out there at the > time, this was just the start. > > I think this whole area of research is very interesting. According to the following link (which is purportedly an excerpt from page 5 of "Ethernet: The Definitive Guide"), the 3 Mbps Experimental Ethernet was indeed originally called Ethernet. Link - Why is it called Ethernet? - http://www.ethermanage.com/why-is-it-called-ethernet/ """ In late 1972, Metcalfe and his Xerox PARC colleagues developed the first experimental ?Ethernet? network system to interconnect Xerox Altos to one another, and to servers and laser printers. The signal clock for the experimental interface was derived from the Alto?s system clock, resulting in a data transmission rate on the experimental Ethernet of 2.94 Mb/s. Metcalfe?s first experimental network was called the Alto Aloha Network. In 1973, Metcalfe changed the name to ?Ethernet,? to make it clear that the system could support any computer? not just Altos? and to point out that his new network mechanisms had evolved well beyond the Aloha system. He chose to base the name on the word ?ether? as a way of describing an essential feature of the system: the physical medium (i.e., a cable) carries bits to all stations, much the same way that the old ?luminiferous ether? was once thought to propagate electromagnetic waves through space. Thus, Ethernet was born. """ I apparently need to pick up a copy of Ethernet: The Definitive Guide and do some reading. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Oct 4 18:13:34 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 19:13:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Ethernet names... Message-ID: <20181004231334.88FFD18C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Eric Smith > I think the account given in the book may be a bit confused on this > point. ... That sequence of events is contradicted by Pelkey ... > describes the name change from Alto Aloha to Ether as happening in May > 1973 in agreement with WWSUL, except that in the Pelkey account the > Alto network wasn't designed and built until June, _after_ the name > change. It's quite possible that in Metcalfe's interview (which is what the WWSUL account seems to be pretty much wholly based on), N years after it all happened, his memory flaked and he got the sequence wrong. I've had the same thing happen to me, trying to recall the sequence/timing of early IP work at MIT. I was sure X happened before Y, and then Jerry Saltzer dug up an old progress report... There's a reason that the gold standard for historians is contemporary documentation. Along those lines, here: http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/nontech/tmlotus.html is an amusing story of my encounters with this effect on some Lotus Indycar research I did. Noel From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Oct 4 23:00:50 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 22:00:50 -0600 Subject: Ethernet names... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 4, 2018, 14:19 Eric Smith wrote: > except that in the Pelkey account the Alto network wasn't designed and > built until June, _after_ the name change. > I should have written that it the design and construction _started_ in June. The initial Ethernet wasn't completed until late 1974. From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Oct 4 22:34:34 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 23:34:34 -0400 Subject: Scan of Micro Peripherals Inc MPI 91/92 Product Manual Avail? Message-ID: I got a request for a scan of the Micro Peripherals Inc MPI 91/92 Product Manual. I have the manual, I will scan it and post if no one has a copy. But I don't want to go through the effort if it exists somewhere already. I noticed on bitsavers there was no MPI nor Micro Peripherals Inc section so it very well may be that there is no copy of this manual out there.. Thanks in advance. Bill From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Oct 5 00:42:26 2018 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2018 22:42:26 -0700 Subject: Scan of Micro Peripherals Inc MPI 91/92 Product Manual Avail? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36dcfd2b-5eaf-1b39-6151-646748176069@jwsss.com> On 10/4/2018 8:34 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > I got a request for a scan of the Micro Peripherals Inc MPI 91/92 Product > Manual. I have the manual, I will scan it and post if no one has a copy. > But I don't want to go through the effort if it exists somewhere already. > I noticed on bitsavers there was no MPI nor Micro Peripherals Inc section > so it very well may be that there is no copy of this manual out there.. > > Thanks in advance. > > Bill Is this the floppy drive outfit in Chatsworth or there bouts?? I serviced their inhouse Microdata Reality system, and later converted them to a Compaq 386 running Pick for the AT. "Would work for floppy drives" was on my sign I used for begging. It came in handy before we replaced the Reality system as drives were expensive and on allocation a lot, and we obviously had no problem with that. I'd love to have the manual, as I think I've got some of the drives it that is what these are. I initially confused the MPI with the CDC tape division, but then realized you likely meant the floppy folks, at any case, not the CDC division. thanks Jim From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Oct 5 06:42:21 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 13:42:21 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Digico computer Message-ID: We recently got a Digico Micro 16V computer including a Pertec 3342 disk drive. It is a 16 bit minicomputer based on 74181 ALUs and a couple of 4k core memory modules. Since the condition of the system is not the best (dirt, dust, some bent wirewrap pins), I'm looking for the usual information :-)) - technical manual, schematics - software I'm thankful for any information. Christian From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Oct 5 08:36:46 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 09:36:46 -0400 Subject: Scan of Micro Peripherals Inc MPI 91/92 Product Manual Avail? In-Reply-To: <36dcfd2b-5eaf-1b39-6151-646748176069@jwsss.com> References: <36dcfd2b-5eaf-1b39-6151-646748176069@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > > On 10/4/2018 8:34 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > I got a request for a scan of the Micro Peripherals Inc MPI 91/92 Product > > Manual. I have the manual, I will scan it and post if no one has a copy. > > But I don't want to go through the effort if it exists somewhere already. > > I noticed on bitsavers there was no MPI nor Micro Peripherals Inc section > > so it very well may be that there is no copy of this manual out there.. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > Bill > > Is this the floppy drive outfit in Chatsworth or there bouts? > Yes, Chatsworth, CA USA > > I'd love to have the manual, as I think I've got some of the drives it > that is what these are. > > Another vote for yes, make a scan. So there are no scans of this drive otherwise.... going once going twice... b From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Oct 5 08:59:14 2018 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod G8DGR) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 14:59:14 +0100 Subject: Digico computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5B321EA009191A34@rgout01.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) Hi I worked with DIGICO?s in 1974. Is it red? Does it have a manual pull through paper tape reader? Was it made in the UK? I am most interested Rod Smallwood Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Christian Corti via cctalk Sent: 05 October 2018 12:42 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Digico computer We recently got a Digico Micro 16V computer including a Pertec 3342 disk drive. It is a 16 bit minicomputer based on 74181 ALUs and a couple of 4k core memory modules. Since the condition of the system is not the best (dirt, dust, some bent wirewrap pins), I'm looking for the usual information :-)) - technical manual, schematics - software I'm thankful for any information. Christian From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Oct 5 09:07:31 2018 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod G8DGR) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 15:07:31 +0100 Subject: Digico computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5BB6CF65000C5681@rgout03.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) http://www.vintage-icl-computers.com/icl49c Drawings for 16V here Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Christian Corti via cctalk Sent: 05 October 2018 12:42 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Digico computer We recently got a Digico Micro 16V computer including a Pertec 3342 disk drive. It is a 16 bit minicomputer based on 74181 ALUs and a couple of 4k core memory modules. Since the condition of the system is not the best (dirt, dust, some bent wirewrap pins), I'm looking for the usual information :-)) - technical manual, schematics - software I'm thankful for any information. Christian From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Fri Oct 5 09:44:35 2018 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 10:44:35 -0400 Subject: Digico computer In-Reply-To: <5bb7702c.1c69fb81.621c3.2ec4SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> References: <5bb7702c.1c69fb81.621c3.2ec4SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> Message-ID: [...] "Is it red?" [...] LOL I love it! Some beautiful hardware on the list this week, I wish I snagged that DG MicroNova... =] -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 10:07 AM Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: > http://www.vintage-icl-computers.com/icl49c > > Drawings for 16V here > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > From: Christian Corti via cctalk > Sent: 05 October 2018 12:42 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Digico computer > > We recently got a Digico Micro 16V computer including a Pertec 3342 disk > drive. It is a 16 bit minicomputer based on 74181 ALUs and a couple of 4k > core memory modules. > Since the condition of the system is not the best (dirt, dust, some > bent wirewrap pins), I'm looking for the usual information :-)) > - technical manual, schematics > - software > I'm thankful for any information. > > Christian > > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 5 10:53:46 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 08:53:46 -0700 Subject: Scan of Micro Peripherals Inc MPI 91/92 Product Manual Avail? In-Reply-To: References: <36dcfd2b-5eaf-1b39-6151-646748176069@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <668e456f-bbf3-5f85-6d4a-2f6d5587ba64@bitsavers.org> I did a scan of the CHM catalog, and we don't appear to have it We do have some other things, which I'll scan today On 10/5/18 6:36 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > So there are no scans of this drive otherwise.... going once going twice... > > b > From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Oct 5 11:42:45 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 12:42:45 -0400 Subject: Scan of Micro Peripherals Inc MPI 91/92 Product Manual Avail? In-Reply-To: <668e456f-bbf3-5f85-6d4a-2f6d5587ba64@bitsavers.org> References: <36dcfd2b-5eaf-1b39-6151-646748176069@jwsss.com> <668e456f-bbf3-5f85-6d4a-2f6d5587ba64@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Al, so you're saying, "yes please scan the MPI 91/21 product manual"? On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 12:17 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I did a scan of the CHM catalog, and we don't appear to have it > We do have some other things, which I'll scan today > > On 10/5/18 6:36 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > > So there are no scans of this drive otherwise.... going once going > twice... > > > > b > > > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Oct 5 11:43:30 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 12:43:30 -0400 Subject: Scan of Micro Peripherals Inc MPI 91/92 Product Manual Avail? References: <36dcfd2b-5eaf-1b39-6151-646748176069@jwsss.com> <668e456f-bbf3-5f85-6d4a-2f6d5587ba64@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 12:42 PM Bill Degnan wrote: > Al, so you're saying, "yes please scan the MPI 91/21 product manual"? > MPI 91/92 I meant. From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Oct 5 15:25:54 2018 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 20:25:54 +0000 Subject: Ethernet names... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7A171E27-0650-4C52-9FD0-A4FD0260A05F@swri.edu> Listening to Bob Metcalfe talk right now (15:30 CST), and there may be a question and answer session. Any questions? - Mark 210-522-6025 office 210-379-4635 cell > On Oct 4, 2018, at 11:00 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018, 14:19 Eric Smith wrote: > >> except that in the Pelkey account the Alto network wasn't designed and >> built until June, _after_ the name change. >> > > I should have written that it the design and construction _started_ in > June. The initial Ethernet wasn't completed until late 1974. > > CAUTION: This email originated from outside SwRI and it may contain attachments and/or links. Do not open attachments or click on links unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Oct 5 16:37:12 2018 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 21:37:12 +0000 Subject: Ethernet names... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6EBA27C3-C837-4372-A23A-A228693D8E84@swri.edu> > On Oct 4, 2018, at 11:00 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018, 14:19 Eric Smith wrote: > >> except that in the Pelkey account the Alto network wasn't designed and >> built until June, _after_ the name change. >> > > I should have written that it the design and construction _started_ in > June. The initial Ethernet wasn't completed until late 1974. > > CAUTION: This email originated from outside SwRI and it may contain attachments and/or links. Do not open attachments or click on links unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Good talk. I?ll summarize my notes and post tonight. Apologies for top-posting earlier, I was in a hurry. - Mark From shumaker at att.net Fri Oct 5 16:53:30 2018 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 14:53:30 -0700 Subject: Scan of Micro Peripherals Inc MPI 91/92 Product Manual Avail? In-Reply-To: References: <36dcfd2b-5eaf-1b39-6151-646748176069@jwsss.com> <668e456f-bbf3-5f85-6d4a-2f6d5587ba64@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 10/5/2018 9:43 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 12:42 PM Bill Degnan wrote: > >> Al, so you're saying, "yes please scan the MPI 91/21 product manual"? >> > MPI 91/92 I meant. > I've scanned something called the "MPI Flexible Disk Drive Interfacing Guide" for the Model 51/52 floppy units steve From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 5 17:43:00 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 15:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Scan of Micro Peripherals Inc MPI 91/92 Product Manual Avail? In-Reply-To: References: <36dcfd2b-5eaf-1b39-6151-646748176069@jwsss.com> <668e456f-bbf3-5f85-6d4a-2f6d5587ba64@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Oct 2018, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: > I've scanned something called the "MPI Flexible Disk Drive Interfacing Guide" > for the Model 51/52 floppy units Is that the same as: http://www.osiweb.org/manuals/MPI_B51-B52_Product_Manual.pdf ? Q: Is the 91/92 being asked about merely a 96TPI version of the MPI B51/B52? The QT Systems ad in Infoworld that Google comes up with as an early hit says 77 track (not 80). It correctly refers to the B51 as "Sgl sided, Sgl/Dbl Den", but refers to the B52 as "Sgl Sided, Dbl Den", rather than double sided single/double density. So, although 77 V 80 tracks is a definite possibility in those days, the reliability of the specs in that ad are questionable. The B51 was the first non-SHugart 5.25" drive that I ever had. substituting it for the SA400 was truly trivial. Motor speed seemed to wander a bit, but the track alignment held more stably than the SA400. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Oct 5 18:04:00 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 19:04:00 -0400 Subject: Scan of Micro Peripherals Inc MPI 91/92 Product Manual Avail? In-Reply-To: References: <36dcfd2b-5eaf-1b39-6151-646748176069@jwsss.com> <668e456f-bbf3-5f85-6d4a-2f6d5587ba64@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 5, 2018, 6:43 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 5 Oct 2018, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: > > I've scanned something called the "MPI Flexible Disk Drive Interfacing > Guide" > > for the Model 51/52 floppy units > > Is that the same as: > http://www.osiweb.org/manuals/MPI_B51-B52_Product_Manual.pdf > ? > > Q: Is the 91/92 being asked about merely a 96TPI version of the MPI > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com The 91/92 is pretty rare compared to the 51/52. I bet one could glean *most* of what one would need from the 51/52 manual, but not all. Could be totally different too. The guy who contacted me I think wants to make his 91 "into" a 51. But wow the 91/92 manual is not already scanned, surprised. B > > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Oct 5 18:04:26 2018 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 16:04:26 -0700 Subject: Scan of Micro Peripherals Inc MPI 91/92 Product Manual Avail? In-Reply-To: References: <36dcfd2b-5eaf-1b39-6151-646748176069@jwsss.com> <668e456f-bbf3-5f85-6d4a-2f6d5587ba64@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <58d557b1-99e4-84c7-baef-b1e2ac497b43@jwsss.com> On 10/5/2018 3:43 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 5 Oct 2018, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: >> I've scanned something called the "MPI Flexible Disk Drive >> Interfacing Guide" for the Model 51/52 floppy units > > Is that the same as: > http://www.osiweb.org/manuals/MPI_B51-B52_Product_Manual.pdf > ? > I have the MPI version of this manual.? There is also a schematic for the board I grabbed somewhere. > Q: Is the 91/92 being asked about merely a 96TPI version of the MPI > B51/B52? > I believe it is. > The QT Systems ad in Infoworld that Google comes up with as an early > hit says 77 track (not 80).? It correctly refers to the B51 as "Sgl > sided, Sgl/Dbl Den", but refers to the B52 as "Sgl Sided, Dbl Den", > rather than double sided single/double density. > So, although 77 V 80 tracks is a definite possibility in those days, > the reliability of the specs in that ad are questionable. > > > The B51 was the first non-SHugart 5.25" drive that I ever had. > substituting it for the SA400 was truly trivial. > Motor speed seemed to wander a bit, but the track alignment held more > stably than the SA400. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred???????????? cisin at xenosoft.com > > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 5 18:21:56 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 16:21:56 -0700 Subject: Scan of Micro Peripherals Inc MPI 91/92 Product Manual Avail? In-Reply-To: References: <36dcfd2b-5eaf-1b39-6151-646748176069@jwsss.com> <668e456f-bbf3-5f85-6d4a-2f6d5587ba64@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 10/05/2018 04:04 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > The 91/92 is pretty rare compared to the 51/52. I bet one could glean > *most* of what one would need from the 51/52 manual, but not all. Could be > totally different too. The guy who contacted me I think wants to make his > 91 "into" a 51. But wow the 91/92 manual is not already scanned, > surprised. I seem to remember that there was a "combo" manual that covered the 51/52, 91/82 and 101/102. Also, there was a 52M, but I never encountered it in the wild. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 5 18:23:06 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 16:23:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Scan of Micro Peripherals Inc MPI 91/92 Product Manual Avail? In-Reply-To: References: <36dcfd2b-5eaf-1b39-6151-646748176069@jwsss.com> <668e456f-bbf3-5f85-6d4a-2f6d5587ba64@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Oct 2018, Bill Degnan wrote: > The 91/92 is pretty rare compared to the 51/52. I bet one could glean > *most* of what one would need from the 51/52 manual, but not all. Could be > totally different too. The guy who contacted me I think wants to make his > 91 "into" a 51. But wow the 91/92 manual is not already scanned, > surprised. Converting a 91/92 into a 51/52 would require a different HEAD, as well as changing the stepper. Stepping could be dealt with in software, to double step, but the narrower head means that it would not do an acceptable job of RE-writing tracks that had been previously written by a "normal" 48tpi drive, and that would ever need to be READ later by a "normal" 48tpi drive. Unless there is some DESPERATE need for the push button door latch, cosmetic match, or something, it would make more sense to find a 48tpi drive. OTOH, it is likely (NOT A CERTAINTY) that the 91/92 is similar enough that parts other than head or stepper from 91/92 could be used to repair a broken 51/52. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 5 19:05:41 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 17:05:41 -0700 Subject: Scan of Micro Peripherals Inc MPI 91/92 Product Manual Avail? In-Reply-To: References: <36dcfd2b-5eaf-1b39-6151-646748176069@jwsss.com> <668e456f-bbf3-5f85-6d4a-2f6d5587ba64@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 10/5/18 4:21 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I seem to remember that there was a "combo" manual that covered the > 51/52, 91/82 and 101/102. Also, there was a 52M, but I never > encountered it in the wild. double sided 48tpi, with some micropolis-unique feature? From shumaker at att.net Fri Oct 5 19:14:47 2018 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 17:14:47 -0700 Subject: Scan of Micro Peripherals Inc MPI 91/92 Product Manual Avail? In-Reply-To: References: <36dcfd2b-5eaf-1b39-6151-646748176069@jwsss.com> <668e456f-bbf3-5f85-6d4a-2f6d5587ba64@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Nope.? not the same.?? did a page by page comparison,? *very* close on most of the specs - but when you get to a J1 pinout diagram for the cable, there are significant differences.? The 51/52 uses extra lines that the B51/52 shows as not used. Steve On 10/5/2018 3:43 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 5 Oct 2018, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: >> I've scanned something called the "MPI Flexible Disk Drive >> Interfacing Guide" for the Model 51/52 floppy units > > Is that the same as: > http://www.osiweb.org/manuals/MPI_B51-B52_Product_Manual.pdf > ? > > Q: Is the 91/92 being asked about merely a 96TPI version of the MPI > B51/B52? > > The QT Systems ad in Infoworld that Google comes up with as an early > hit says 77 track (not 80).? It correctly refers to the B51 as "Sgl > sided, Sgl/Dbl Den", but refers to the B52 as "Sgl Sided, Dbl Den", > rather than double sided single/double density. > So, although 77 V 80 tracks is a definite possibility in those days, > the reliability of the specs in that ad are questionable. > > > The B51 was the first non-SHugart 5.25" drive that I ever had. > substituting it for the SA400 was truly trivial. > Motor speed seemed to wander a bit, but the track alignment held more > stably than the SA400. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred???????????? cisin at xenosoft.com > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Oct 5 19:15:44 2018 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 17:15:44 -0700 Subject: Scan of Micro Peripherals Inc MPI 91/92 Product Manual Avail? In-Reply-To: References: <36dcfd2b-5eaf-1b39-6151-646748176069@jwsss.com> <668e456f-bbf3-5f85-6d4a-2f6d5587ba64@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 10/5/2018 4:04 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Oct 5, 2018, 6:43 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > >> On Fri, 5 Oct 2018, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: >>> I've scanned something called the "MPI Flexible Disk Drive Interfacing >> Guide" >>> for the Model 51/52 floppy units >> Is that the same as: >> http://www.osiweb.org/manuals/MPI_B51-B52_Product_Manual.pdf >> ? >> >> Q: Is the 91/92 being asked about merely a 96TPI version of the MPI >> > > In 1982, this Infoworld article shows MPI in on a standards group for microfloppies.? They were not a player with a lot of room to stumble, and I believe they didn't do much with the 91/92 technology because of lack of sales.? They were betting on the 3 1/2" market, and will look around to see if I can find info on that. The following google scan barf is for Infoworld, September 13, 1982, page 6. https://books.google.com/books?id=EDAEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA6&lpg=PA6&dq=magnetic+peripherals+inc+mpi+chatsworth+ca+-control+-data+-cdc&source=bl&ots=J9seBGsWD7&sig=7Mvc7_wqSCkt48EydabdDozjbho&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj55tS9tfDdAhUJrlQKHXs7CxUQ6AEwAXoECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=magnetic%20peripherals%20inc%20mpi%20chatsworth%20ca%20-control%20-data%20-cdc&f=false Lists members of a group to standardize form, as well as that there are those working on a 3" media. The 1982 time frame fits with our maintaining their Microdata system, and worth mentioning we lost them as a customer for that due to their business not going so well. In Jan 1983, they bought for stock a head company https://www.upi.com/Archives/1983/01/24/BUSINESS-BRIEFS/1727412232400/ "Micro Peripherals Inc. said Monday it has acquired in return for MPI stock assets of the floppy disk magnetic recording head operations of Information Magnetics Corp., a subsidiary of Computer & Communications Technology Corp." There isn't much in the trade press other than this I found. thanks Jim thanks Jim From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 5 19:20:39 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 17:20:39 -0700 Subject: Scan of Micro Peripherals Inc MPI 91/92 Product Manual Avail? In-Reply-To: References: <36dcfd2b-5eaf-1b39-6151-646748176069@jwsss.com> <668e456f-bbf3-5f85-6d4a-2f6d5587ba64@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 10/05/2018 05:05 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 10/5/18 4:21 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> I seem to remember that there was a "combo" manual that covered the >> 51/52, 91/82 and 101/102. Also, there was a 52M, but I never >> encountered it in the wild. > > double sided 48tpi, with some micropolis-unique feature? Check my shelves, I think the 52M is Micropolis, but 100 tpi. I'd have to double-check, but it looks that way at first glance. Damn, I'm getting old. I used to remember stuff like this. --Chuck From trash80 at internode.on.net Fri Oct 5 19:38:26 2018 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2018 10:38:26 +1000 Subject: Does anyone recognise these boards please Message-ID: <036701d45d0c$e5d94840$b18bd8c0$@internode.on.net> Be most grateful if anyone can advise here please. Rescued a TRS-80 MC10 from deceased estate recently - it was headed for the bin but got saved. The original owner was a bit of an electronics hobbyist and his brother-in-law tossed these boards in with the bundle I grabbed. http://koken.advancedimaging.com.au/index.php?/albums/boards/ Kevin Parker From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 5 19:42:50 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 17:42:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Scan of Micro Peripherals Inc MPI 91/92 Product Manual Avail? In-Reply-To: References: <36dcfd2b-5eaf-1b39-6151-646748176069@jwsss.com> <668e456f-bbf3-5f85-6d4a-2f6d5587ba64@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > On 10/5/18 4:21 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> I seem to remember that there was a "combo" manual that covered the >> 51/52, 91/82 and 101/102. Also, there was a 52M, but I never >> encountered it in the wild. On Fri, 5 Oct 2018, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > double sided 48tpi, with some micropolis-unique feature? Interesting. http://www.mfarris.com/floppy/mpi.html shows 'M', 'S', and "M-S" suffixes. In OTHER brands, the Tandon TM100-4M was much like the TM100-4, except with 100TPI, instead of 96TPI. ("M for Micropolis compatible", and some of the TM100-4M drives did not have an 'M' on the nameplate!) (For those not familiar, Micropolis made a 100 TPI drive, and a few companies made provision for that.) But, what Micropolis features would be desirable in a 48TPI drive? And what was the difference between a 92M, a 92S, a 92M-002, and a 102M-S If it were "91"/"92"/"91M"/"92M", then that would seem comparable to the Tandon TM100-3/TM100-4/TM100-4M. And what is the 101/102, if not 100tpi versions of the 91/92? Course, thei all might be irrelevant if the differences were lead-screw (what my micropolis 48tpi had), V split band positioner, (like my MPI B51s, which were the only MPIs that I had) OR difference in OTHER specs such as for faster drives? (Lead screw tends to be slower than split-band) Was there ever any brand of drive where the alignment of the second side head was a DIFFERENT offset than the USUAL offset from the position of the first side head? Over the lifespan of 5.25" drives, there have been a few changes in some signals, such as READY, DiskChange, Density, etc. Even to the point that Tandy used pin 32 for fourth drive select, and then the drive manufacturers used it for side select. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 5 21:52:43 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 19:52:43 -0700 Subject: Scan of Micro Peripherals Inc MPI 91/92 Product Manual Avail? In-Reply-To: References: <36dcfd2b-5eaf-1b39-6151-646748176069@jwsss.com> <668e456f-bbf3-5f85-6d4a-2f6d5587ba64@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <7af73298-68f2-4ce1-962e-e68d65dae2c6@sydex.com> On 10/05/2018 05:42 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> On 10/5/18 4:21 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>> I seem to remember that there was a "combo" manual that covered the >>> 51/52, 91/82 and 101/102.?? Also, there was a 52M, but I never >>> encountered it in the wild. > > On Fri, 5 Oct 2018, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> double sided 48tpi, with some micropolis-unique feature? Again, I don't recall. I do have a couple of 100 tpi MPI 5.25" drives--I'm just not sure about what they're called. Micropolis interface also, IIRC, had a *slightly* different pinout from the standard Shugart SA400. (pause while he checks) Pin 2 - Head load Pin 6 - Ready Pin 34 Drive select 4 Just different enough to make for a little confusion. I do have a Tandon TM-100-4M here with a "96 TPI DSR" sticker under the latch, so the factory probably wasn't too careful about that. Of course, neither Tandon nor MPI produced a drive that was even close to Micropolis. But almost nobody was as expensive as Micropolis either. Micropolis never gave up, IIRC, on its 4-steps-per-cylinder precision leadscrew setup. I've got a Micropolis 1115-VI drive here and it's a heavy wonder to behold. The whole stepper motor, leadscrew and head assembly pivots on the drive door--usually, the stepper is attached to the main body of the drive. Further, it's a drive that features a microcontroller for drive spindle speed control (no adjustments) as well as for providing a "buffered seek" capability. Fire step pulses at it at rates slower than 6 msec/step and it behaves normally. Fire pulses at between 3-5 msec and the drive goes into buffered seek mode. It's a wonder to behold and, IIRC, was substantially more expensive than anyone else's 5.25" floppy drives. Sort of the antithesis of Jugi Tandon's "make 'em cheap" approach. No wonder Micropolis went out of the floppy business. --Chuck From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Oct 5 22:21:48 2018 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod G8DGR) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2018 04:21:48 +0100 Subject: Does anyone recognise these boards please In-Reply-To: <036701d45d0c$e5d94840$b18bd8c0$@internode.on.net> References: <036701d45d0c$e5d94840$b18bd8c0$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <5B321EA009251FDB@rgout01.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) Sorry old chap ? link to boards comes up as forbidden R Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Kevin Parker via cctalk Sent: 06 October 2018 01:42 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Does anyone recognise these boards please Be most grateful if anyone can advise here please. Rescued a TRS-80 MC10 from deceased estate recently - it was headed for the bin but got saved. The original owner was a bit of an electronics hobbyist and his brother-in-law tossed these boards in with the bundle I grabbed. http://koken.advancedimaging.com.au/index.php?/albums/boards/ Kevin Parker From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Oct 5 22:56:58 2018 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2018 03:56:58 +0000 Subject: Ethernet names... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2743F4BB-608C-43E9-95F5-1866548EBB32@swri.edu> > On Oct 4, 2018, at 11:00 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018, 14:19 Eric Smith wrote: > >> except that in the Pelkey account the Alto network wasn't designed and >> built until June, _after_ the name change. >> > > I should have written that it the design and construction _started_ in > June. The initial Ethernet wasn't completed until late 1974. Below, my interpretation of Dr. Metcalfe?s talk. Dates were generally backed up by pictures of documents, with dates visible on the covers, so I suspect the timelines given are reasonably accurate. I didn?t hear anything to contradict the timeline Grant was describing. The talk was fun to listen to, lots of dry humor and very good scene-setting and reminders of what the computational environment used to be like. ??? Metcalfe claimed he got his start at serial data transmission "Sending bits 1 at a time down an acoustic delay line memory?. The other parts of that project didn?t deliver, but he learned a lot from that. He went on to connect a PDP-10 to the network at MIT, using similar serial technology. He showed a document dated Oct. 1972, "Scenarios for using the Arpnet? He got a Harvard PhD in 1972 He went to Xerox PARC in 1972 He showed a later photo of a Xerox Parc Alto personal computer, with Ethernet, and stated the intent there was to put that on the desk of all of the engineeris at PARC. He started with 1/2" yellow coax - yellow because that was the color his group decided to order. He says that is the standard color, which standard is almost universally ignored. He showed a diagram, including both the term "ether? - because the medimum could be coax cable - or telephone ?ether", or radio ?ether? - which presages the 802.11 standards. He showed a photo of an Aloha packet network radio system circa 1970. To the question, why did they not go not straight to wi-fi? He responded that RF technology would support no more than 4kbits at the time, while semiconductors developed in the 1990's allowed transition to radio at hundreds of kbits/s. They wanted at least hundreds of kbits/s, so they went with cable. The first version worked at 2.94 Mbits/s, due to card space restrictions - a 170 ns clock present on the backplane of the Xerox Alto was the determinant, since there was no place to put a clock on the original card (which had to go into the Alto). The bandwidth to his office went up by * 10,000 on installation of his card, vs. the old 300 bps modem it replaced. He founded 3Com corporation in 1980, named for "Computer Communications Compatibility", intending to generate that compatibility via standards. He said he would not start a company name with a number if he had it to do over again. Steve Jobs helped him start the company, invited him to the premier of Toy Story and sent a limo, and introduced him to Regis Mckenna (sic?) who was the marketing guy for 3Com for a few years. 3Com?s first shipping hardware was a transceiver running at 10 Mbits/s, costing $750. PC's at the time were not powerful enough to merit 10 Mbits/s, so 3Com pivoted to supply to Unix workstations, including Sun. By then they were moving to thin-net. He showed a draft Standard "blue book" Sept. 1980. Digital, Intel, Xerox were major participants. Competition from IBM and GM (?) led to 3 competing standards: IEEE 802.3, 802.4, 802.5. He said 3Com shipped token ring devices before IBM did, but had "compatibility? issues in IBM environments due to IBM implementation. In Sept. 1982, 3Com shipped etherlink for IBM PC at $1000/card. He showed a graphic of a 3Com sales tool Circa 1982, showing a plot of the value of the network as being proportional to the number of ?connections? which is the square of the number of nodes. This formula was described as "Metcalfe's law" in Forbes magazine in 1995. Part of 3Com?s success was its ability to demonstrate network effectiveness as it would be ~10 years in the future by looking at PARC, which his competitors could not do. He referred to this as a ?time machine? in marketing research. ?????? There was more to the talk, but that?s most of the historically relevant things he said. Hope this is helpful. - Mark From bhilpert at shaw.ca Fri Oct 5 23:08:45 2018 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 21:08:45 -0700 Subject: Does anyone recognise these boards please In-Reply-To: <036701d45d0c$e5d94840$b18bd8c0$@internode.on.net> References: <036701d45d0c$e5d94840$b18bd8c0$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <51F6FED4-F446-4EA5-ADB4-A028B9774316@shaw.ca> On 2018-Oct-05, at 5:38 PM, Kevin Parker via cctalk wrote: > Be most grateful if anyone can advise here please. Rescued a TRS-80 MC10 from deceased estate recently - it was headed for the bin > but got saved. > > The original owner was a bit of an electronics hobbyist and his brother-in-law tossed these boards in with the bundle I grabbed. > > http://koken.advancedimaging.com.au/index.php?/albums/boards/ Regarding the 2nd board: Is there a likelihood this board could trace back to the Vancouver, B.C., Canada region? - there was an "Intek Electronics" near the south end of Main St in Vancouver in that era (70s-80s). I don't know if they had other outlets across the country. It was a component supplier/retailer but like other such retailers it might have been a kit or in-house effort made and sold by them. From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Oct 6 00:05:16 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2018 01:05:16 -0400 Subject: Scan of Micro Peripherals Inc MPI 91/92 Product Manual Avail? In-Reply-To: <7af73298-68f2-4ce1-962e-e68d65dae2c6@sydex.com> References: <36dcfd2b-5eaf-1b39-6151-646748176069@jwsss.com> <668e456f-bbf3-5f85-6d4a-2f6d5587ba64@bitsavers.org> <7af73298-68f2-4ce1-962e-e68d65dae2c6@sydex.com> Message-ID: > > Of course, neither Tandon nor MPI produced a drive that was even close > to Micropolis. But almost nobody was as expensive as Micropolis either. > Micropolis never gave up, IIRC, on its 4-steps-per-cylinder precision > leadscrew setup. > > I've got a Micropolis 1115-VI drive here and it's a heavy wonder to > behold. The whole stepper motor, leadscrew and head assembly pivots on > the drive door--usually, the stepper is attached to the main body of the > drive. > > Further, it's a drive that features a microcontroller for drive spindle > speed control (no adjustments) as well as for providing a "buffered > seek" capability. Fire step pulses at it at rates slower than 6 > msec/step and it behaves normally. Fire pulses at between 3-5 msec and > the drive goes into buffered seek mode. > > It's a wonder to behold and, IIRC, was substantially more expensive than > anyone else's 5.25" floppy drives. Sort of the antithesis of Jugi > Tandon's "make 'em cheap" approach. > > No wonder Micropolis went out of the floppy business. > > --Chuck > Not sure if you have ever compared MPI, Tandon, and Micropolis versions of the Commodore CBM 8050 dual IEEE disk drives. Each had a totally different approach to the same job, the diagnostics used to rest them were totally different. Bill > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 6 00:55:08 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 22:55:08 -0700 Subject: Scan of Micro Peripherals Inc MPI 91/92 Product Manual Avail? In-Reply-To: <7af73298-68f2-4ce1-962e-e68d65dae2c6@sydex.com> References: <36dcfd2b-5eaf-1b39-6151-646748176069@jwsss.com> <668e456f-bbf3-5f85-6d4a-2f6d5587ba64@bitsavers.org> <7af73298-68f2-4ce1-962e-e68d65dae2c6@sydex.com> Message-ID: One last tidbit on the Micropolis floppy drives--the early drives (1014, etc.) used a body/chassis made of steel plate. The later drives (1115) used cast body parts. It's also worth observing that the leadscrew positioner is probably the best, as it's the dominant technology in 135 tpi 3.5" drives. --Chuck From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sat Oct 6 01:19:32 2018 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 23:19:32 -0700 Subject: Does anyone recognise these boards please In-Reply-To: <036701d45d0c$e5d94840$b18bd8c0$@internode.on.net> References: <036701d45d0c$e5d94840$b18bd8c0$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: On 10/5/2018 5:38 PM, Kevin Parker via cctalk wrote: > Be most grateful if anyone can advise here please. Rescued a TRS-80 MC10 from deceased estate recently - it was headed for the bin > but got saved. > > The original owner was a bit of an electronics hobbyist and his brother-in-law tossed these boards in with the bundle I grabbed. > > http://koken.advancedimaging.com.au/index.php?/albums/boards/ > > > > Kevin Parker Datum is known for computer equipment and timing instrumentation. The era of such trainers seems a bit late for them, so maybe a different part of it. Obviously the other thing is a trainer board with analog and digital bits around the proto area. thanks Jim From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat Oct 6 03:46:15 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2018 10:46:15 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Digico computer In-Reply-To: <5B321EA009191A34@rgout01.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) References: <5B321EA009191A34@rgout01.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Oct 2018, it was written > I worked with DIGICO?s in 1974. > Is it red? > Does it have a manual pull through paper tape reader? > Was it made in the UK? > I am most interested Yes, it is red and has a small reader on the front plate. The machine seems to be complete (expect the disk drive that is missing the removable platter assembly/heads). I can make some pictures these days. Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat Oct 6 03:50:05 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2018 10:50:05 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Digico computer In-Reply-To: <5BB6CF65000C5681@rgout03.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) References: <5BB6CF65000C5681@rgout03.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Oct 2018, it was written > http://www.vintage-icl-computers.com/icl49c > > Drawings for 16V here No, only some non-readable pictures of drawings :-( I should ask the guy to scan them reasonably. Christian From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Oct 6 06:50:49 2018 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod G8DGR) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2018 12:50:49 +0100 Subject: Digico computer In-Reply-To: References: <5BB6CF65000C5681@rgout03.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) Message-ID: <5AF328480D5138B3@rgout05.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) Hallo Christian Wie gesagt, ich habe 1974 mit diesen Systemen gearbeitet. Ich w?rde gerne wieder einen Lauf sehen. Ich glaube, du bist in der N?he von Stuttgart. Ich lebte 1969/70 in Maichingen. Ich komme zwar mehrmals im Jahr nach Deutschland, aber nach Friedricshafen f?r einen Urlaub. Was kann ich machen um zu helfen. Wenn Sie Zugang zu den ICL-Dokumenten erhalten und sie in Gro?britannien sind, k?nnte ich sie scannen. Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Christian Corti via cctalk Sent: 06 October 2018 09:50 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Digico computer On Fri, 5 Oct 2018, it was written > http://www.vintage-icl-computers.com/icl49c > > Drawings for 16V here No, only some non-readable pictures of drawings :-( I should ask the guy to scan them reasonably. Christian From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Oct 6 12:48:05 2018 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2018 12:48:05 -0500 Subject: CPT boards Message-ID: <4dc65a0f-a80a-7024-a13e-b1364283962e@gmail.com> I borrowed a pile of scrap 1970s-era PCBs from my local recycler yesterday, just to make sure there was nothing important among them before they go off for processing. Among them are six boards branded as CPT, which I assume (as I'm in MN) is the CPT Corporation that was in Minneapolis. The double-sided boards are organized in five rows of five ICs, with 44-way edge connectors and IC date codes in the 1973-1977 range. I seem to have p/n's 910012, 910014, 910015, 910017, 910018 and 910022. In addition to this there's a smaller board which references "deck 1 heads" and "deck 2 heads", and appears to have a p/n of 910025. Does this ring any bells with anyone? The Wikipedia entry for CPT mentions the 'VM' machine in 1976 with dual tape units, so I wonder if they're from one of those... if so, I'm curious if there are any surviving intact examples out there (or other info, there doesn't appear to be any CPT stuff on bitsavers) cheers Jules From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 6 13:40:44 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2018 11:40:44 -0700 Subject: CPT boards In-Reply-To: <4dc65a0f-a80a-7024-a13e-b1364283962e@gmail.com> References: <4dc65a0f-a80a-7024-a13e-b1364283962e@gmail.com> Message-ID: <863dc1c9-3a45-9e8b-f8d0-e136635bd3df@bitsavers.org> could be part of a 4200 or a VM http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/small-systems-at-ricm/cpt-4200-series-typewriter since the date codes are early, i'd guess the 4200 Mike might be able to ID the boards On 10/6/18 10:48 AM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > I borrowed a pile of scrap 1970s-era PCBs from my local recycler yesterday, just to make sure there was nothing > important among them before they go off for processing. Among them are six boards branded as CPT, which I assume (as I'm > in MN) is the CPT Corporation that was in Minneapolis. > > The double-sided boards are organized in five rows of five ICs, with 44-way edge connectors and IC date codes in the > 1973-1977 range. I seem to have p/n's 910012, 910014, 910015, 910017, 910018 and 910022. > > In addition to this there's a smaller board which references "deck 1 heads" and "deck 2 heads", and appears to have a > p/n of 910025. > > Does this ring any bells with anyone? The Wikipedia entry for CPT mentions the 'VM' machine in 1976 with dual tape > units, so I wonder if they're from one of those... if so, I'm curious if there are any surviving intact examples out > there (or other info, there doesn't appear to be any CPT stuff on bitsavers) > > cheers > > Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Oct 6 18:18:58 2018 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2018 18:18:58 -0500 Subject: Digico computer In-Reply-To: References: <5B321EA009191A34@rgout01.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> Message-ID: <322e67eb-0aad-1cbf-e093-e4f5cc6fa7d2@gmail.com> On 10/06/2018 03:46 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 5 Oct 2018, it was written >> I worked with DIGICO?s in 1974. >> Is it red? >> Does it have a manual pull through paper tape reader? >> Was it made in the UK? >> I am most interested > > Yes, it is red and has a small reader on the front plate. The machine seems > to be complete (expect the disk drive that is missing the removable platter > assembly/heads). > I can make some pictures these days. Hi Christian, I sent you a message off-list, I think I have a line on some information for you. (I'm just mentioning it here too as email doesn't seem to be as reliable as it once was, sadly). cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Oct 6 18:35:12 2018 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2018 18:35:12 -0500 Subject: CPT boards In-Reply-To: <863dc1c9-3a45-9e8b-f8d0-e136635bd3df@bitsavers.org> References: <4dc65a0f-a80a-7024-a13e-b1364283962e@gmail.com> <863dc1c9-3a45-9e8b-f8d0-e136635bd3df@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <6f41fb1e-e137-30c2-440f-f5ce1cdce0a7@gmail.com> On 10/06/2018 01:40 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > could be part of a 4200 or a VM > > http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/small-systems-at-ricm/cpt-4200-series-typewriter > > since the date codes are early, i'd guess the 4200 Possibly, although there are quite a few ICs with 1976 and 1977 date codes which don't give the impression of being repair parts - I'm not sure what the lifespan of the 4200 was. Of course the Wikipedia article is quite light on details though, so perhaps there were other models not mentioned, or tweaks to the 4200's design to keep it 'current' as time went on. > Mike might be able to ID the boards I've dumped images of the six boards temporarily here: http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/tmp/c1.jpg http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/tmp/c2.jpg http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/tmp/c3.jpg and finally the smaller "tape board" is bottom-right in this group of misc.: http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/tmp/c.jpg (I've no idea what the others are in that photo. Top little one is Sperry. There were lots of "industrial" boards in the scrap pile, though - CNC control boards and the like - so quite possibly not computer-related at all) cheers Jules From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Sat Oct 6 18:42:26 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2018 00:42:26 +0100 Subject: CPT boards In-Reply-To: <6f41fb1e-e137-30c2-440f-f5ce1cdce0a7@gmail.com> References: <4dc65a0f-a80a-7024-a13e-b1364283962e@gmail.com> <863dc1c9-3a45-9e8b-f8d0-e136635bd3df@bitsavers.org> <6f41fb1e-e137-30c2-440f-f5ce1cdce0a7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8D4E6258-54CA-475E-B408-9A24CEE755B1@gmail.com> > On 7 Oct 2018, at 00:35, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > On 10/06/2018 01:40 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> could be part of a 4200 or a VM >> http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/small-systems-at-ricm/cpt-4200-series-typewriter >> since the date codes are early, i'd guess the 4200 > > Possibly, although there are quite a few ICs with 1976 and 1977 date codes which don't give the impression of being repair parts - I'm not sure what the lifespan of the 4200 was. Of course the Wikipedia article is quite light on details though, so perhaps there were other models not mentioned, or tweaks to the 4200's design to keep it 'current' as time went on. > >> Mike might be able to ID the boards > > I've dumped images of the six boards temporarily here: > > http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/tmp/c1.jpg > http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/tmp/c2.jpg > http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/tmp/c3.jpg > > and finally the smaller "tape board" is bottom-right in this group of misc.: > > http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/tmp/c.jpg > > (I've no idea what the others are in that photo. Top little one is Sperry. There were lots of "industrial" boards in the scrap pile, though - CNC control boards and the like - so quite possibly not computer-related at all) > > cheers > > Jules I?ve talked to a few CPT employees over the years, see http://binarydinosaurs.co.uk/museum/cpt/ - if your haul is related to the 4200 I?ll need to add the pics too :) -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Oct 6 19:22:06 2018 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2018 19:22:06 -0500 Subject: CPT boards In-Reply-To: <8D4E6258-54CA-475E-B408-9A24CEE755B1@gmail.com> References: <4dc65a0f-a80a-7024-a13e-b1364283962e@gmail.com> <863dc1c9-3a45-9e8b-f8d0-e136635bd3df@bitsavers.org> <6f41fb1e-e137-30c2-440f-f5ce1cdce0a7@gmail.com> <8D4E6258-54CA-475E-B408-9A24CEE755B1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9e4089cf-d8ad-623c-1c17-4c0d75241d89@gmail.com> On 10/06/2018 06:42 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > I?ve talked to a few CPT employees over the years, see > http://binarydinosaurs.co.uk/museum/cpt/ > - if your haul is related to > the 4200 I?ll need to add the pics too :) Sure thing! I've set the boards aside as I think I'll likely save them, just because they have a local connection - maybe just make a little wall-hanging display from them, or something. As usual with stuff that I find at the recycler's, it's unfortunate to think that this may have been a complete system just a few days ago! J. From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Oct 6 21:53:00 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2018 19:53:00 -0700 Subject: Looking to trade for Emulex UC04 QBus SCSI Message-ID: Hi all -- In my quest to get my MicroVAX I to do something interesting, I'm looking for an Emulex UC04 SCSI controller -- this is one of the few MSCP SCSI devices that I'm aware of that are compatible with the MicroVAX I (the rest all require a II or later). I have a nice CMD CQD-200/TM QBus SCSI controller that I can offer in trade, or I also have a wide variety of other parts available... please drop me a line if you've got one for trade. Thanks as always, Josh From db at db.net Sun Oct 7 10:17:30 2018 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2018 11:17:30 -0400 Subject: M7753 DEC flip chip Message-ID: <20181007151730.GA27561@night.db.net> It has a red tag on it saying it is DOA date 23/May 79 and an obviously poorly removed chip. Anyone want it? For postage it's yours. -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://artemis.db.net/~db From kevenm at 3kranger.com Sat Oct 6 23:56:26 2018 From: kevenm at 3kranger.com (Keven Miller(3k)) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2018 21:56:26 -0700 Subject: early ANSI C drafts, pre-1989 standard References: Message-ID: <3B8213D1BDEB46D69BECDECD8A0F49B3@ranger1> I found that I have a copy of X3J11-88-001 Draft Propsed American National Standard for Information Systems - Programming Language C and X3J11-88-003 Rationale for Draft Proposed American National Standard for Information Systems - Programming Language C They are quit lengthy, 2 sided copies. I suppose I could create copies if you would like. Or attempt to scan them into individual pdf files. Keven Miller kevenm at 3kranger.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Smith via cctalk" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tue 25 Sep 2018 10:09 AM Subject: early ANSI C drafts, pre-1989 standard > I'm interested in looking at any published drafts prior to the C 1989 > standard. I found X3J11-88-090 here: > > https://yurichev.com/ref/Draft%20ANSI%20C%20Standard%20(ANSI%20X3J11-88-090)%20(May%2013,%201988).txt > > That makes mention of the previous draft being X3J11-88-001. Does anyone > still have a copy of that draft, or other pre-89 drafts? > > I'm not looking for any of the published standards (I've purchased them), > nor any drafts after the 1989 standard. > > Eric > From allisonportable at gmail.com Sun Oct 7 09:56:29 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2018 10:56:29 -0400 Subject: Teac Mt-2st/20D-12-u In-Reply-To: <863dc1c9-3a45-9e8b-f8d0-e136635bd3df@bitsavers.org> References: <4dc65a0f-a80a-7024-a13e-b1364283962e@gmail.com> <863dc1c9-3a45-9e8b-f8d0-e136635bd3df@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Group, I have one of these TEAC Phillips tape drives.? I have a manual: Is tape (media) available for it? What was it typically used in? How much storage was it? I was digging for some paerts and found it in my collection.? I know of no system I have that used it but someone must have done a "Here, maybe you can use it!". Allison From js at cimmeri.com Sun Oct 7 12:21:54 2018 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2018 12:21:54 -0500 Subject: Teac Mt-2st/20D-12-u In-Reply-To: References: <4dc65a0f-a80a-7024-a13e-b1364283962e@gmail.com> <863dc1c9-3a45-9e8b-f8d0-e136635bd3df@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5BBA40B2.6070606@cimmeri.com> Replied privately. On 10/7/2018 9:56 AM, allison via cctalk wrote: > Group, > > I have one of these TEAC Phillips tape drives. I have a manual: > > Is tape (media) available for it? > > What was it typically used in? > > How much storage was it? > > I was digging for some paerts and found it in my collection. I know of > no system > I have that used it but someone must have done a "Here, maybe you can > use it!". > > Allison > > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Oct 7 12:15:36 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2018 13:15:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: early ANSI C drafts, pre-1989 standard Message-ID: <20181007171536.6821C18C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Keven Miller > I found that I have a copy of X3J11-88-001 I turned up a copy of X3J11/87-221; the one before that was X3J11/87-140. Noel From ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org Sun Oct 7 12:45:59 2018 From: ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org (Andrew Luke Nesbit) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2018 18:45:59 +0100 Subject: early ANSI C drafts, pre-1989 standard In-Reply-To: <3B8213D1BDEB46D69BECDECD8A0F49B3@ranger1> References: <3B8213D1BDEB46D69BECDECD8A0F49B3@ranger1> Message-ID: Hi Kevin, On 07/10/2018 05:56, Keven Miller(3k) via cctalk wrote: > I found that I have a copy of X3J11-88-001 > Draft Propsed American National Standard for Information Systems - > Programming Language C > and X3J11-88-003 > Rationale for Draft Proposed American National Standard for Information > Systems - Programming Language C Cool! > They are quit lengthy, 2 sided copies. > I suppose I could create copies if you would like. > Or attempt to scan them into individual pdf files. Is it bound as a book (with a proper book spine) or wirebound, ..., etc? Would it be easier to take it to a copy shop? For example, if it's wirebound or spiralbound it's very easy and cheap for a copy shop to take it apart, run the whole thing automatically through a scanning device, and then reattach the original binding. I would be willing to contribute a little money to help cover cost of this in return for a scanned copy. Kind regards, Andrew -- OpenPGP key: EB28 0338 28B7 19DA DAB0 B193 D21D 996E 883B E5B9 From cruff at ruffspot.net Sun Oct 7 12:48:30 2018 From: cruff at ruffspot.net (Craig Ruff) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2018 11:48:30 -0600 Subject: Teac Mt-2st/20D-12-u In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <851579E5-9922-4316-901A-CD728B917C08@ruffspot.net> I used to have a SCSI interface version of that drive type, I made backups of my Mac Plus (I think it was) hard drive. Since I don't have it currently, I believe I gave it to a friend along with the rest of my Mac Plus peripherals. I don't recall the capacity of my specific drive, but it used a "data cassette", which had a notch in the tape case to prevent use of regular cassette tapes. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Oct 7 17:50:03 2018 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2018 15:50:03 -0700 Subject: early ANSI C drafts, pre-1989 standard In-Reply-To: <20181007171536.6821C18C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181007171536.6821C18C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <6275b297-ff9b-2575-5de7-6c450778f188@jwsss.com> I have a filing cabinet with a lot of the early material that I saved.? Our company was a member, and I was the representative from the beginning.? If interested I can dig in and find out what I've go. If any group will preserve it I'd be glad to share.? I don't think the committee would object, but I can check as I've still got contacts with the X10 committee which is the current SCSI group. I think all I have predates the 87 / 88 by a lot.? I started when there was only 5mb interlocked ACK / REQ transfers, and no disconnect / ATN defined in any way. Jim On 10/7/2018 10:15 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Keven Miller > > > I found that I have a copy of X3J11-88-001 > > I turned up a copy of X3J11/87-221; the one before that was X3J11/87-140. > > Noel > > From ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org Sun Oct 7 18:37:42 2018 From: ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org (Andrew Luke Nesbit) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 00:37:42 +0100 Subject: early ANSI C drafts, pre-1989 standard In-Reply-To: <6275b297-ff9b-2575-5de7-6c450778f188@jwsss.com> References: <20181007171536.6821C18C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6275b297-ff9b-2575-5de7-6c450778f188@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <2F69A6A3-83B8-4939-B901-C40424BE5EA2@andrewnesbit.org> On a related note, I have an ongoing project to create an archive of all Usenet posts from comp.lang.c and related groups, index them, and make them properly accessible to the public. Yes, I know about Google Groups and the backstory about how they got all the gold from Usenet's glory days. But scraping web pages is not my style, at least not in this instance. The biggest hole I have is the 1990's. If anybody has information that might be able to help me out, please let me know. Andrew > On 7 Oct 2018, at 23:50, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > I have a filing cabinet with a lot of the early material that I saved. Our company was a member, and I was > the representative from the beginning. If interested I can dig in and find out what I've go. > > If any group will preserve it I'd be glad to share. I don't think the committee would object, but I can check > as I've still got contacts with the X10 committee which is the current SCSI group. > > I think all I have predates the 87 / 88 by a lot. I started when there was only 5mb interlocked ACK / REQ > transfers, and no disconnect / ATN defined in any way. > > Jim > >> On 10/7/2018 10:15 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> > From: Keven Miller >> >> > I found that I have a copy of X3J11-88-001 >> >> I turned up a copy of X3J11/87-221; the one before that was X3J11/87-140. >> >> Noel > From allisonportable at gmail.com Sun Oct 7 22:23:43 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2018 23:23:43 -0400 Subject: Teac Mt-2st/20D-12-u In-Reply-To: <851579E5-9922-4316-901A-CD728B917C08@ruffspot.net> References: <851579E5-9922-4316-901A-CD728B917C08@ruffspot.net> Message-ID: On 10/07/2018 01:48 PM, Craig Ruff via cctech wrote: > I used to have a SCSI interface version of that drive type, I made backups of my Mac Plus (I think it was) hard drive. Since I don't have it currently, I believe I gave it to a friend along with the rest of my Mac Plus peripherals. I don't recall the capacity of my specific drive, but it used a "data cassette", which had a notch in the tape case to prevent use of regular cassette tapes. The version I have is not SCSI. The part number looks up in the manual? as 90ips, Ferrite head and D/CAS as the interface. I've never had any Mac hardware before the Macbook, or VME. Allison From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Oct 8 02:39:09 2018 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 09:39:09 +0200 Subject: PDP-11 in russia? In-Reply-To: <007901d45b19$78d67e60$6a837b20$@classiccmp.org> References: <008b01d45a4c$b729c7d0$257d5770$@classiccmp.org> <20181002170109.GD41410@beast.freibergnet.de> <5B9AED2F01A48023@rgout07.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> <007901d45b19$78d67e60$6a837b20$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20181008073909.GF6450@Update.UU.SE> Hi A small update. On Wed, Oct 03, 2018 at 08:03:25AM -0500, Jay West via cctalk wrote: > We may have found someone at least on the right continent ;) That is my friend Olafs in Latvia. He passed the information to some actual russians that are into PDP-11's and it seems they are helping out the owner. Here is a thread with pictures on their forum: http://www.phantom.sannata.ru/forum/index.php?t=30884 The machine appears to be a DEC 11/23 with 128kW of memory, RD and RX drives and an I/O board hooked up to some measuring machinery. Cheers, Pontus. > > For those interested, he sent a pic (but haven't looked at it closely to see if the -11 is even in there): > > http://www.ezwind.net/IMG_0223.JPG > > J > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod G8DGR via cctalk > Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2018 12:27 PM > To: Holm Tiffe ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: PDP-11 in russia? > > There were plenty of real PDP-11?s that found their way to Russia. > Often through front companies in say Vienna. > > Rod Smallwood > Digital Equipment Corporation 1975 ? 1985 > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > From: Holm Tiffe via cctalk > Sent: 02 October 2018 18:01 > To: Jay West; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: PDP-11 in russia? > > Jay West via cctalk wrote: > > > Someone has contacted me about a pdp-11 that controls a "measuring machine > > dea epsilon". > > > > > > > > It appears that they want to replace the pdp-11 with a "ibm" (I'm guessing a > > pc), and then they would give the pdp-11 as a gift. > > > > > > > > That is all the info I have. Are there any listmembers in Russia who would > > be able to take on a project? > > > > > > > > J > > > This for sure isn't a PDP11, it would be an "ELEKTRONIKA 60" I think. > This is something like an 11/23 but with metric Connectors, PCBs are a > little bit bigger as PDP11's. > > I do own such a beast, that's a picture from the CPU: > > https://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/PDP-VAX/E60/E60-01.jpg > > Other pictures are in the same directory (directory index is allowed). > > ..it's running RT11 from a 8" RX Floppy clone... > > Regards, > > Holm > -- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > > > From ats at offog.org Mon Oct 8 06:37:13 2018 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2018 12:37:13 +0100 Subject: early ANSI C drafts, pre-1989 standard In-Reply-To: <2F69A6A3-83B8-4939-B901-C40424BE5EA2@andrewnesbit.org> (Andrew Luke Nesbit via cctalk's message of "Mon, 8 Oct 2018 00:37:42 +0100") References: <20181007171536.6821C18C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6275b297-ff9b-2575-5de7-6c450778f188@jwsss.com> <2F69A6A3-83B8-4939-B901-C40424BE5EA2@andrewnesbit.org> Message-ID: Andrew Luke Nesbit via cctalk writes: > On a related note, I have an ongoing project to create an archive of > all Usenet posts from comp.lang.c and related groups, index them, and > make them properly accessible to the public. [...] > The biggest hole I have is the 1990's. This seems to be a general problem with Usenet preservation -- the utzoo archives run up to 1991, and the collections from Giganews etc. on archive.org typically cover from 2000 or so onwards, but the 1990s are harder to obtain. Are there any public archives other than Google Groups for this period? (We've found quite a lot of useful information for the DB ITS project by mining relevant groups on Usenet -- a web interface isn't nearly as good for this as having the text on disk...) -- Adam Sampson From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Oct 8 09:24:56 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 16:24:56 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Digico computer In-Reply-To: References: <5B321EA009191A34@rgout01.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Oct 2018, Christian Corti wrote: > I can make some pictures these days. So, here they are: http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pics/digico Some notes from my part: There were two systems, there is only the front panel and board set left from the second one. One front panel says "LOS", the other "micro 16v". Also pictures from the Pertec drive wreck that I hope can be restored to a fixed platter only drive. (PCBs not shown, but I have them) I have three memory boards in total, and the two CPU boards are different revisions. The one shown is MK2, the other is MK1 with a lot of green wires. All boards seem to be soldered by hand! Christian From systems.glitch at gmail.com Mon Oct 8 10:40:48 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 11:40:48 -0400 Subject: WTB: BA11-K Rack Rails Message-ID: Looking for a pair of rack rails for my PDP-11/10. Thanks, Jonathan From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Oct 8 11:23:09 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 12:23:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WTB: BA11-K Rack Rails Message-ID: <20181008162309.3825218C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: systems_glitch > Looking for a pair of rack rails for my PDP-11/10. Is it in a BA11-K (as suggested by the Subject line), or BA11-D? (-11/10's came in both, for the 10-1/2" box.) The -K has the power supply on the end, the -D down one side. What slide hardware, if any, do you already have? (Many come with the inners [the part that bolts to the mounting box] still there, but the outers have been discarded.) If you've got the inners, you're home free; I can give you a General Devices 'Chassis Trak' part number that will provide working outers (although you'd probably have to modify the locking hole for the lock to work). If you don't have the inners, I'll have to go look and see what can be done... (The original DEC inners are, AFAIK, now unobtainium.) Oh, and if you do have inners, I assume they are the earlier, grey-coated ones, not the later silver ones? Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Oct 8 11:39:43 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 12:39:43 -0400 Subject: WTB: BA11-K Rack Rails In-Reply-To: <20181008162309.3825218C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181008162309.3825218C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > > > Looking for a pair of rack rails for my PDP-11/10. > > Is it in a BA11-K (as suggested by the Subject line), or BA11-D? (-11/10's > came in both, for the 10-1/2" box.) The -K has the power supply on the end, > the -D down one side. > > > If you've got the inners, you're home free; I can give you a > General Devices 'Chassis Trak' part number that will provide working outers > (although you'd probably have to modify the locking hole for the lock to > work). > > What is the part number for the -D ? Bill From systems.glitch at gmail.com Mon Oct 8 11:47:01 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 12:47:01 -0400 Subject: WTB: BA11-K Rack Rails In-Reply-To: References: <20181008162309.3825218C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: It's the BA11-K with the H765 power supply on the back end. I do have the inner rails/latch system for tilting the box, they are plain aluminum. The outer rails probably went with the rack. Thanks, Jonathan On Mon, Oct 8, 2018 at 12:40 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > Looking for a pair of rack rails for my PDP-11/10. > > > > Is it in a BA11-K (as suggested by the Subject line), or BA11-D? > (-11/10's > > came in both, for the 10-1/2" box.) The -K has the power supply on the > end, > > the -D down one side. > > > > > > > If you've got the inners, you're home free; I can give you a > > General Devices 'Chassis Trak' part number that will provide working > outers > > (although you'd probably have to modify the locking hole for the lock to > > work). > > > > > What is the part number for the -D ? > Bill > From useddec at gmail.com Mon Oct 8 12:30:34 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 12:30:34 -0500 Subject: WTB: BA11-K Rack Rails In-Reply-To: References: <20181008162309.3825218C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: The D has a H750 PS on the right side. Paul On Mon, Oct 8, 2018 at 11:40 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > Looking for a pair of rack rails for my PDP-11/10. > > > > Is it in a BA11-K (as suggested by the Subject line), or BA11-D? > (-11/10's > > came in both, for the 10-1/2" box.) The -K has the power supply on the > end, > > the -D down one side. > > > > > > > If you've got the inners, you're home free; I can give you a > > General Devices 'Chassis Trak' part number that will provide working > outers > > (although you'd probably have to modify the locking hole for the lock to > > work). > > > > > What is the part number for the -D ? > Bill > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 8 14:25:19 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 12:25:19 -0700 Subject: WTB: BA11-K Rack Rails In-Reply-To: References: <20181008162309.3825218C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <99d4af8c-4597-966b-0705-d82af4066d3d@bitsavers.org> On 10/8/18 9:47 AM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > It's the BA11-K with the H765 power supply on the back end. I do have the > inner rails/latch system for tilting the box, they are plain aluminum. They're molybdenum-coated steel. Aluminum would never hold up in that application. From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Oct 8 14:56:59 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 15:56:59 -0400 Subject: WTB: BA11-K Rack Rails In-Reply-To: <99d4af8c-4597-966b-0705-d82af4066d3d@bitsavers.org> References: <20181008162309.3825218C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <99d4af8c-4597-966b-0705-d82af4066d3d@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: While we are on the subject, I do need the part number of the -D version outer rails, the 11/05 11/10 chassis with power supply on the side. I have the inner rails with the tilt feature. From saburwulf at gmail.com Mon Oct 8 11:42:22 2018 From: saburwulf at gmail.com (Josh) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 09:42:22 -0700 Subject: WTB: BPK-72 or Bubble Memory Dummy Module + Seed Module Message-ID: Currently working on restoring some bubble memories and I'm looking for some modules originally included in Intel's BPK-72 development kit, specifically the Dummy Load module and the Seed module. http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/still-image/Intel/intel.dummy_seed_modules.102652232.lg.jpg These are used for testing a bubble memory system as well as repairing bubble modules which have had some sort of failure which requires manually re-seeding them. I have all the parts I need to work with the modules, I'm just missing these parts. The manual shows the schematics, component values, and layouts of both of these modules, so I can fabricate them myself if need be, but wanted to see if anyone had them handy first. Thank you again! Josh From useddec at gmail.com Mon Oct 8 16:01:19 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 16:01:19 -0500 Subject: WTB: BA11-K Rack Rails In-Reply-To: References: <20181008162309.3825218C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <99d4af8c-4597-966b-0705-d82af4066d3d@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I don't remember the D tilting. On Mon, Oct 8, 2018 at 2:57 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > While we are on the subject, I do need the part number of the -D version > outer rails, the 11/05 11/10 chassis with power supply on the side. I have > the inner rails with the tilt feature. > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Oct 8 17:41:41 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 18:41:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WTB: BA11-K Rack Rails Message-ID: <20181008224141.EA27D18C0CC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Bill Degnan > What is the part number for the -D ? Do you have the inners? The only -D inners I know of are the kind shown here: http://gunkies.org/wiki/BA11-D_Mounting_Box and if you have those, you're in luck; the outers from a still-available Chassis Track unit are perfect replacements for the original outers. Kinda pricy, mind, but at least they're available. If you have a different inner, I'd love an image, so I can see what it is, and document it. If you have no inners, kinda ugly. You can buy that CT unit, but you'll have to drill matching holes in the inner - and you lose the rotational capability. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Oct 8 18:38:50 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 19:38:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WTB: BA11-K Rack Rails Message-ID: <20181008233850.6392A18C0CC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: systems_glitch > I do have the inner rails/latch system for tilting the box, they are > plain aluminum. Like the lower picture: http://gunkies.org/wiki/BA11-K_mounting_box there? I'm guessing that's zinc-plated steel. Alas, I don't know who made those (may have been DEC themselves), or a source for them. _But_.... I have some Chassis Trak outers which are almost compatible. (I say 'outers', but actually many slide sets are 3-part; there's an outer which bolts to the rack, an inner which bolts to the mounting box. and then a third piece, a 'middle' I guess we can call them. Sometimes the middle and outer can be separated, with a safety latch you have to release - but I think I recall seeing one set where you can't extract the middle mrom the outer - at least not out the front.) Anyway, the silver inners do fit into the track in the middles of those CT units - all except the two wheels at the inside end of the inners! Too bad, because I have no use for these outers, and would be happy to hand them over to you. The other possibilithy is that I _might_ have a spare set of the silver outers. I have 2 sets of the outers (2 left, 2 right), 4 of the special pivot bolts - but only one set of inners - at least that I can quickly find. Let me have a look around, and see if I'm really missing the inners - if so. I might be up for trading you a set of outers for something I can use. Noel From systems.glitch at gmail.com Mon Oct 8 19:57:33 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 20:57:33 -0400 Subject: WTB: BA11-K Rack Rails In-Reply-To: <20181008224141.EA27D18C0CC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181008224141.EA27D18C0CC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Bill, I think I have the outers for the BA11-D currently installed in the rack. I know a PDP-11/05 lived in here at one point. Thanks, Jonathan On Mon, Oct 8, 2018 at 6:41 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > From: Bill Degnan > > > What is the part number for the -D ? > > Do you have the inners? The only -D inners I know of are the kind shown > here: > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/BA11-D_Mounting_Box > > and if you have those, you're in luck; the outers from a still-available > Chassis Track unit are perfect replacements for the original outers. Kinda > pricy, mind, but at least they're available. > > If you have a different inner, I'd love an image, so I can see what it is, > and document it. > > If you have no inners, kinda ugly. You can buy that CT unit, but you'll > have > to drill matching holes in the inner - and you lose the rotational > capability. > > Noel > From systems.glitch at gmail.com Mon Oct 8 20:39:43 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 21:39:43 -0400 Subject: WTB: BA11-K Rack Rails In-Reply-To: <20181008233850.6392A18C0CC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181008233850.6392A18C0CC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Yep, just like the lower picture! It is indeed steel, I thought it was aluminum from a quick look. I'd prefer a set of original outer rails, but something newer or something I have to modify a little would be fine. Thanks, Jonathan On Mon, Oct 8, 2018 at 7:38 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > From: systems_glitch > > > I do have the inner rails/latch system for tilting the box, they are > > plain aluminum. > > Like the lower picture: > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/BA11-K_mounting_box > > there? I'm guessing that's zinc-plated steel. > > Alas, I don't know who made those (may have been DEC themselves), or a > source > for them. _But_.... > > > I have some Chassis Trak outers which are almost compatible. (I say > 'outers', > but actually many slide sets are 3-part; there's an outer which bolts to > the > rack, an inner which bolts to the mounting box. and then a third piece, a > 'middle' I guess we can call them. Sometimes the middle and outer can be > separated, with a safety latch you have to release - but I think I recall > seeing one set where you can't extract the middle mrom the outer - at least > not out the front.) > > Anyway, the silver inners do fit into the track in the middles of those CT > units - all except the two wheels at the inside end of the inners! Too bad, > because I have no use for these outers, and would be happy to hand them > over > to you. > > The other possibilithy is that I _might_ have a spare set of the silver > outers. I have 2 sets of the outers (2 left, 2 right), 4 of the special > pivot > bolts - but only one set of inners - at least that I can quickly find. Let > me > have a look around, and see if I'm really missing the inners - if so. I > might > be up for trading you a set of outers for something I can use. > > Noel > From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Oct 8 21:55:39 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2018 22:55:39 -0400 Subject: WTB: BA11-K Rack Rails In-Reply-To: <20181008224141.EA27D18C0CC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181008224141.EA27D18C0CC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 8, 2018, 6:41 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Bill Degnan > > > What is the part number for the -D ? > > Do you have the inners? The only -D inners I know of are the kind shown > here: > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/BA11-D_Mounting_Box > > and if you have those, you're in luck; the outers from a still-available > Chassis Track unit are perfect replacements for the original outers. Kinda > pricy, mind, but at least they're available. > Yes, this is what I have. The referenced photo is the same. I have a half height cabinet I can use. Bill > From fritz_chwolka at t-online.de Tue Oct 9 02:39:34 2018 From: fritz_chwolka at t-online.de (Fritz Chwolka) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2018 09:39:34 +0200 Subject: dmk to imd problem Message-ID: <2d2c98f9-6140-71a4-a79e-7b848958aaa8@t-online.de> Hi, I have a lot of dmk images and tried to convert them to imd with dmk2imd.com. Trying with on of those files: http://oldcomputers-ddns.org/public/pub/rechner/eaca/genie_3s/my_genie_3s/image/fritz/cpm/g3s_f01.dmk The conversion was fast and told me: Tracks:80x6528 DSSD Assuming 500kbps data rate. But when I write the *.imd to floppy I get only 40track and that is realy not good. :-( -- Best Regards, mit freundlichen Gr??en Fritz Chwolka From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Oct 9 07:19:48 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2018 08:19:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WTB: BA11-K Rack Rails Message-ID: <20181009121948.77DB318C0CE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Anderson > I don't remember the D tilting. http://gunkies.org/wiki/File:BA11-DSide.jpg This is very similar to the slides on the BA11 (-11/20), which also had the rotation, so I suspect they were all this way (i.e. there no early versions without, etc). Having said that, if anyone has a -D with something else, please send me an image so I can document it. > From: systems_glitch > I'd prefer a set of original outer rails, but something newer or > something I have to modify a little would be fine. Probably the easiest option is to buy a set of those C-230-S's; the mounting holes on their inners match the locations of the swage nuts on the BA11-K sides, so it's straight simple bolt-in. You'll lose the rotations option, though. Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 9 07:27:26 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2018 05:27:26 -0700 Subject: dmk to imd problem In-Reply-To: <2d2c98f9-6140-71a4-a79e-7b848958aaa8@t-online.de> References: <2d2c98f9-6140-71a4-a79e-7b848958aaa8@t-online.de> Message-ID: <1cf0aa0c-9df4-8fe9-e58d-583786a37caf@bitsavers.org> On 10/9/18 12:39 AM, Fritz Chwolka via cctalk wrote: > Hi, > > I have a lot of dmk images and tried to convert them to imd with dmk2imd.com. try the conversion in the HcX utility From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Oct 9 08:21:49 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2018 09:21:49 -0400 Subject: WTB: BA11-K Rack Rails In-Reply-To: <20181009121948.77DB318C0CE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181009121948.77DB318C0CE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 8:19 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > From: Paul Anderson > > > I don't remember the D tilting. > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/File:BA11-DSide.jpg > > This is very similar to the slides on the BA11 (-11/20), which also had the > rotation, so I suspect they were all this way (i.e. there no early versions > without, etc). Having said that, if anyone has a -D with something else, > please send me an image so I can document it. > > > > From: systems_glitch > > > I'd prefer a set of original outer rails, but something newer or > > something I have to modify a little would be fine. > > Probably the easiest option is to buy a set of those C-230-S's; the > mounting > holes on their inners match the locations of the swage nuts on the BA11-K > sides, so it's straight simple bolt-in. You'll lose the rotations option, > though. > > > https://www.newark.com/general-devices/c-230-s-122/telescoping-slide-26in-steel/dp/51F4052 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Oct 9 13:42:00 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2018 18:42:00 +0000 Subject: BPK-72 or Bubble Memory Dummy Module + Seed Module In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: CHM has these in their collection. Where are you located at? They don't look really complicated. I'd think one could make one if they had a schematic. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Josh via cctalk Sent: Monday, October 8, 2018 9:42:22 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: WTB: BPK-72 or Bubble Memory Dummy Module + Seed Module Currently working on restoring some bubble memories and I'm looking for some modules originally included in Intel's BPK-72 development kit, specifically the Dummy Load module and the Seed module. http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/still-image/Intel/intel.dummy_seed_modules.102652232.lg.jpg These are used for testing a bubble memory system as well as repairing bubble modules which have had some sort of failure which requires manually re-seeding them. I have all the parts I need to work with the modules, I'm just missing these parts. The manual shows the schematics, component values, and layouts of both of these modules, so I can fabricate them myself if need be, but wanted to see if anyone had them handy first. Thank you again! Josh From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 9 19:13:57 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2018 20:13:57 -0400 Subject: Anyone know where uPD2167 SRAMs appeared? Message-ID: Hi, All, I asked a version of this question earlier this year. I have not been able to find any vintage machines that used these 16Kx1 55ns SRAMs. Anyone recognize them? Lots of them for sale on eBay. Probably few buyers. One would want to know which systems used them, thus my question. They probably would have been excellent in a DEC MOS memory board but I have no evidence they were used thusly. Contemporary DRAMs were cheap and 64Kx1 so that's what was in consumer gear. Anyone? Fast SRAM? Anywhere? There's little point in wiring 8 of them up into a byte vs using a 62256 except for speed. 55ns is faster than any 8MHz machine really needs (100ns-150ns was typical for those depending on bus architecture). I could see these being cache RAM for a minicomputer vs primary RAM. -ethan From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Oct 9 19:54:22 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2018 17:54:22 -0700 Subject: Anyone know where uPD2167 SRAMs appeared? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 5:14 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > Hi, All, > > I asked a version of this question earlier this year. I have not been > able to find any vintage machines that used these 16Kx1 55ns SRAMs. > Anyone recognize them? Lots of them for sale on eBay. Probably few > buyers. One would want to know which systems used them, thus my > question. > > They probably would have been excellent in a DEC MOS memory board but > I have no evidence they were used thusly. Contemporary DRAMs were > cheap and 64Kx1 so that's what was in consumer gear. > > Anyone? Fast SRAM? Anywhere? > The Three Rivers PERQ used 48 of them for microcode store in the 16K CPU, and on the Z80-based IO Processor. (I suspect the IO Processor didn't need RAMs quite that fast, but 3RCC probably had a lot of them on hand due to their use in the main CPU...) - Josh > > There's little point in wiring 8 of them up into a byte vs using a > 62256 except for speed. 55ns is faster than any 8MHz machine really > needs (100ns-150ns was typical for those depending on bus > architecture). I could see these being cache RAM for a minicomputer > vs primary RAM. > > -ethan > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 9 20:07:11 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2018 18:07:11 -0700 Subject: Anyone know where uPD2167 SRAMs appeared? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/09/2018 05:13 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > I asked a version of this question earlier this year. I have not been > able to find any vintage machines that used these 16Kx1 55ns SRAMs. > Anyone recognize them? Lots of them for sale on eBay. Probably few > buyers. One would want to know which systems used them, thus my > question. Same as the Intel 2167, or InMOS 1403, no? Like most SRAM of the time, kind of power-hungry (180 ma @ 5V is about a watt per chip. I've got a pile of the InMOS variety, scavenged from a Eurobus design of some sort. --Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Oct 9 20:37:04 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2018 18:37:04 -0700 Subject: Anyone know where uPD2167 SRAMs appeared? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 5:14 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > There's little point in wiring 8 of them up into a byte vs using a > 62256 except for speed. 55ns is faster than any 8MHz machine really > needs (100ns-150ns was typical for those depending on bus > architecture). I could see these being cache RAM for a minicomputer > vs primary RAM. Or maybe used as writable microcode control store? Although as x1 parts there would probably need to be a large number of them in parallel for microcode control store. For example the HP 1000 A900 12205 control store option from the early 1980s used the same 16K density and 55ns speed INMOS IMS1420 SRAM chips, but in a 4Kx4 organization, using 12 of them for a 48-bit wide microcode word. That would take up a lot of board space using x1 parts. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 9 21:22:28 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2018 22:22:28 -0400 Subject: Anyone know where uPD2167 SRAMs appeared? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 9:07 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 10/09/2018 05:13 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > > I asked a version of this question earlier this year. I have not been > > able to find any vintage machines that used these 16Kx1 55ns SRAMs. > > Anyone recognize them? > > Same as the Intel 2167, or InMOS 1403, no? The same. > Like most SRAM of the time, kind of power-hungry (180 ma @ 5V is about a watt per chip) Yep. > I've got a pile of the InMOS variety, scavenged from a Eurobus design of some sort. I have a pile too and no machines (that I know of) that use them. A bin of PDIP from a former employer and a stack of ceramic parts from a large mixed assortment. If I find out they appeared in a machine I might want someday I'd be inclined to keep them. Otherwise, they go, one way or another. -ethan > --Chuck > > > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Oct 10 03:28:48 2018 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod G8DGR) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 09:28:48 +0100 Subject: Digico computer In-Reply-To: References: <5B321EA009191A34@rgout01.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) Message-ID: <5B0550EE0C656A99@rgout04.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) That looks similar to the Logo of the company I worked for ICS (Instrumental Colour Systems) The machine is identical down to the colour and the tape reader. Did you contact the guy with the drawings? Rod Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Christian Corti via cctalk Sent: 08 October 2018 15:25 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Digico computer On Sat, 6 Oct 2018, Christian Corti wrote: > I can make some pictures these days. So, here they are: http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pics/digico Some notes from my part: There were two systems, there is only the front panel and board set left from the second one. One front panel says "LOS", the other "micro 16v". Also pictures from the Pertec drive wreck that I hope can be restored to a fixed platter only drive. (PCBs not shown, but I have them) I have three memory boards in total, and the two CPU boards are different revisions. The one shown is MK2, the other is MK1 with a lot of green wires. All boards seem to be soldered by hand! Christian From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Oct 10 03:48:43 2018 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod G8DGR) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 09:48:43 +0100 Subject: Digico computer In-Reply-To: <5B0550EE0C656A99@rgout04.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) References: <5B321EA009191A34@rgout01.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) <5B0550EE0C656A99@rgout04.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) Message-ID: <5B9AED2F024D9081@rgout07.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) The core memory could still have data in it.... Rod Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Rod G8DGR via cctalk Sent: 10 October 2018 09:28 To: Christian Corti; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Digico computer That looks similar to the Logo of the company I worked for ICS (Instrumental Colour Systems) The machine is identical down to the colour and the tape reader. Did you contact the guy with the drawings? Rod Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Christian Corti via cctalk Sent: 08 October 2018 15:25 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Digico computer On Sat, 6 Oct 2018, Christian Corti wrote: > I can make some pictures these days. So, here they are: http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pics/digico Some notes from my part: There were two systems, there is only the front panel and board set left from the second one. One front panel says "LOS", the other "micro 16v". Also pictures from the Pertec drive wreck that I hope can be restored to a fixed platter only drive. (PCBs not shown, but I have them) I have three memory boards in total, and the two CPU boards are different revisions. The one shown is MK2, the other is MK1 with a lot of green wires. All boards seem to be soldered by hand! Christian From gordon+cctalk at drogon.net Wed Oct 10 04:42:53 2018 From: gordon+cctalk at drogon.net (Gordon Henderson) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 10:42:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Altos 386/1000 boot/diags images? Message-ID: Long shot, but you never know... I recently obtained an Altos 386/1000 system (80386 + 4GB RAM in a tower case with tape drive and floppy) After a quick clean and check it powered up, gave a whinge about a flat battery (which I'm told is to be expected), and then booted SysV r3 Unix OK. After an hour or so poking about, I shut it down then powered it up again a short time later... Now, it starts up, does the power on checks (including the battery whinge), loads Unix, prints some information about memory and a 16 user license then stops. No more messages, no keyboard input, nothing. So I'm a bit stuck. I've found some manuals online but they're not really helping - I'll take it to bits later and see if I can read the internal SCSI drive on another system but I'm not convinced there is an issue with the drive though. So wondering if anyone knows of any installation (or diagnostic) images for these machines? It has a SCSI tape drive and I have some tapes for it, so with some SCSI shenanigans I'm fairly sure I can write a boot tape on a Linux system, or maybe even the floppy - but I need the images... Any clues? Thanks, Gordon From allisonportable at gmail.com Wed Oct 10 08:55:34 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 09:55:34 -0400 Subject: Anyone know where uPD2167 SRAMs appeared? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <787ac3ae-db26-439a-e5af-1242336dfb07@gmail.com> On 10/09/2018 08:54 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Oct 9, 2018 at 5:14 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk > wrote: > >> Hi, All, >> >> I asked a version of this question earlier this year. I have not been >> able to find any vintage machines that used these 16Kx1 55ns SRAMs. >> Anyone recognize them? Lots of them for sale on eBay. Probably few >> buyers. One would want to know which systems used them, thus my >> question. The uPD2167(16Kx1) and 2147 (4kx4) rams appeared in 1981, I was at NEC then. They were offered as 65/55/45ns and for the time that was faster than most static and dynamic parts. >> They probably would have been excellent in a DEC MOS memory board but >> I have no evidence they were used thusly. Contemporary DRAMs were >> cheap and 64Kx1 so that's what was in consumer gear. >> >> Anyone? Fast SRAM? Anywhere? >> > The Three Rivers PERQ used 48 of them for microcode store in the 16K CPU, > and on the Z80-based IO Processor. (I suspect the IO Processor didn't need > RAMs quite that fast, but 3RCC probably had a lot of them on hand due to > their use in the main CPU...) > > - Josh Popular use was memory planes for high speed graphics and cache for some minis. At that time and for a good while there were no micros that pushed the speed needs that hard even 12mhz 8086 in the mid 80s. >> There's little point in wiring 8 of them up into a byte vs using a >> 62256 except for speed. 55ns is faster than any 8MHz machine really >> needs (100ns-150ns was typical for those depending on bus >> architecture). I could see these being cache RAM for a minicomputer >> vs primary RAM. >> >> -ethan >> I used them for a fast cull of 10mhz Z80 without wait states.? While an 8mhz z80 machine has limited need when you add buffering and propagation delays you do need to be under 100ns for margin.? At 10mhz you have to be under 85ns. Also back then the largest byte wide was 2116/6116 (2kx8) and they were fast at maybe 200ns. The 62256 was later and early parts were barely 150ns.? Now finding parts that slow is a challenge. The need for external cache for 386 and 486 based machines drove it way down such that 15-25ns static CMOS (mid to late 1990s) became easy to find. Allison From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 10 09:00:29 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 07:00:29 -0700 Subject: Altos 386/1000 boot/diags images? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46ca064e-74dc-c64d-f2fa-241077992e6d@bitsavers.org> On 10/10/18 2:42 AM, Gordon Henderson via cctalk wrote: > So I'm a bit stuck. I've found some manuals online but they're not really helping - I'll take it to bits later and see > if I can read the internal SCSI drive on another system but I'm not convinced there is an issue with the drive though. you REALLY should image this disk even if you think it is fine. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 10 09:08:04 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 07:08:04 -0700 Subject: Altos 386/1000 boot/diags images? In-Reply-To: <46ca064e-74dc-c64d-f2fa-241077992e6d@bitsavers.org> References: <46ca064e-74dc-c64d-f2fa-241077992e6d@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <2cc71fb1-8f6a-f604-3554-1789fce696fb@bitsavers.org> On 10/10/18 7:00 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 10/10/18 2:42 AM, Gordon Henderson via cctalk wrote: > >> So I'm a bit stuck. I've found some manuals online but they're not really helping - I'll take it to bits later and see >> if I can read the internal SCSI drive on another system but I'm not convinced there is an issue with the drive though. > > you REALLY should image this disk even if you think it is fine. > > I have a diagnostic floppy image at http://bitsavers.org/bits/Altos/386-series I had a S-1000, but it was stolen earlier this year by thieves that broke into my shipping container before I could image the drive. From allisonportable at gmail.com Wed Oct 10 08:58:07 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 09:58:07 -0400 Subject: BPK-72 or Bubble Memory Dummy Module + Seed Module In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/09/2018 02:42 PM, dwight via cctech wrote: > CHM has these in their collection. Where are you located at? They don't look really complicated. I'd think one could make one if they had a schematic. > > Dwight > > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Josh via cctalk > Sent: Monday, October 8, 2018 9:42:22 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: WTB: BPK-72 or Bubble Memory Dummy Module + Seed Module > > Currently working on restoring some bubble memories and I'm looking for > some modules originally included in Intel's BPK-72 development kit, > specifically the Dummy Load module and the Seed module. > > http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/still-image/Intel/intel.dummy_seed_modules.102652232.lg.jpg > > These are used for testing a bubble memory system as well as repairing > bubble modules which have had some sort of failure which requires manually > re-seeding them. > > I have all the parts I need to work with the modules, I'm just missing > these parts. The manual shows the schematics, component values, and layouts > of both of these modules, so I can fabricate them myself if need be, but > wanted to see if anyone had them handy first. > > Thank you again! > > Josh The seed module is simple.? The SM system with its driver, formatter, and controller is a whole other thing. I have two BPK-72s and they are interesting but 128Kb is not very big. Allison From gordon+cctalk at drogon.net Wed Oct 10 10:56:02 2018 From: gordon+cctalk at drogon.net (Gordon Henderson) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 16:56:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: Altos 386/1000 boot/diags images? In-Reply-To: <2cc71fb1-8f6a-f604-3554-1789fce696fb@bitsavers.org> References: <46ca064e-74dc-c64d-f2fa-241077992e6d@bitsavers.org> <2cc71fb1-8f6a-f604-3554-1789fce696fb@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Oct 2018, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 10/10/18 7:00 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 10/10/18 2:42 AM, Gordon Henderson via cctalk wrote: >> >>> So I'm a bit stuck. I've found some manuals online but they're not really helping - I'll take it to bits later and see >>> if I can read the internal SCSI drive on another system but I'm not convinced there is an issue with the drive though. >> >> you REALLY should image this disk even if you think it is fine. I will - once I've worked out how to open it. Took the plastic covers off to find an enclosed steel case. Tin opener? > I have a diagnostic floppy image at http://bitsavers.org/bits/Altos/386-series Ah, I'll have a look, thanks. > I had a S-1000, but it was stolen earlier this year by thieves that broke into > my shipping container before I could image the drive. Wonder what they thought it was... Thanks, Gordon From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 10 12:18:37 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 10:18:37 -0700 Subject: BPK-72 or Bubble Memory Dummy Module + Seed Module In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2b6f0c9e-7516-e9bd-7b69-64366b7df192@sydex.com> I disposed of a BPK-72 on eBay some years ago. I think it sold for $30. My recollection was that the thing was really power-hungry, particularly for something that stored only 128Kbits. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 10 13:09:30 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 11:09:30 -0700 Subject: Altos 386/1000 boot/diags images? In-Reply-To: References: <46ca064e-74dc-c64d-f2fa-241077992e6d@bitsavers.org> <2cc71fb1-8f6a-f604-3554-1789fce696fb@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4d9484e4-2d12-efbb-641f-70ecc078dd91@bitsavers.org> On 10/10/18 8:56 AM, Gordon Henderson via cctalk wrote: > I will - once I've worked out how to open it. Took the plastic covers off to find an enclosed steel case. Tin opener? there are pictures of the one I have open at http://bitsavers.org/pdf/altos/386/photos From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 10 13:11:47 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 11:11:47 -0700 Subject: Altos 386/1000 boot/diags images? In-Reply-To: References: <46ca064e-74dc-c64d-f2fa-241077992e6d@bitsavers.org> <2cc71fb1-8f6a-f604-3554-1789fce696fb@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3788cb0b-54da-9b8a-6d28-b1d21aafe191@bitsavers.org> On 10/10/18 10:12 AM, Wayne S wrote: > There's a guy here in So Cal that has a bunch of vintage computers including an Altos. "an Altos" is meaningless without the model number From wayne.sudol at hotmail.com Wed Oct 10 12:12:07 2018 From: wayne.sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne S) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 17:12:07 +0000 Subject: Altos 386/1000 boot/diags images? In-Reply-To: <2cc71fb1-8f6a-f604-3554-1789fce696fb@bitsavers.org> References: <46ca064e-74dc-c64d-f2fa-241077992e6d@bitsavers.org>, <2cc71fb1-8f6a-f604-3554-1789fce696fb@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: There's a guy here in So Cal that has a bunch of vintage computers including an Altos. I haven't seen it personally but he has a Craigslist ad. Said he put it on ebay and sold it but didn't want to ship because it's real heavy, so i guess the deal fell thru. Current ad says $300 for all. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 10, 2018, at 07:06, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > >> On 10/10/18 7:00 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> >> >>> On 10/10/18 2:42 AM, Gordon Henderson via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> So I'm a bit stuck. I've found some manuals online but they're not really helping - I'll take it to bits later and see >>> if I can read the internal SCSI drive on another system but I'm not convinced there is an issue with the drive though. >> >> you REALLY should image this disk even if you think it is fine. > > I have a diagnostic floppy image at http://bitsavers.org/bits/Altos/386-series > > I had a S-1000, but it was stolen earlier this year by thieves that broke into > my shipping container before I could image the drive. > From wayne.sudol at hotmail.com Wed Oct 10 13:19:39 2018 From: wayne.sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne S) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 18:19:39 +0000 Subject: Altos 386/1000 boot/diags images? In-Reply-To: <3788cb0b-54da-9b8a-6d28-b1d21aafe191@bitsavers.org> References: <46ca064e-74dc-c64d-f2fa-241077992e6d@bitsavers.org> <2cc71fb1-8f6a-f604-3554-1789fce696fb@bitsavers.org> , <3788cb0b-54da-9b8a-6d28-b1d21aafe191@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Al, I don't know much about them, only from discussions on this list. Thought maybe there were only one or two models made and thus maybe there was interest in any model, even if it's just for parts. As an aside, i'll be up in SF in late October and hope to stop by the museum. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 10, 2018, at 11:10, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > >> On 10/10/18 10:12 AM, Wayne S wrote: >> There's a guy here in So Cal that has a bunch of vintage computers including an Altos. > > "an Altos" is meaningless without the model number > > From alan at alanlee.org Wed Oct 10 16:05:53 2018 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 17:05:53 -0400 Subject: DG/UX install media In-Reply-To: <014701d455c2$7f858460$7e908d20$@net> References: <014701d455c2$7f858460$7e908d20$@net> Message-ID: <50bf81c6208540a0f50fefac138863f7@alanlee.org> All, Martin's uploads are temporarily hosted at https://www.atlhcs.org/dgux/. However I have not been able to read the ISO images - as they don't appear to have the proper magic/headers for ISO. Can anyone else work their file-type-foo on them and give me any hints? Thanks, -Alan On 2018-09-26 13:58, Martin Marshall wrote: > Alan, I have an archive of Aviion documentation and DG/UX 4.30 in a bz2 > file. The total amount of the archive is about 62 MB. I can upload > the > archive if you have a ftp site. > > Martin > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of >> alan-- >> - via cctalk >> Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 11:05 AM >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: DG/UX install media >> >> Does anyone have install media for DG/UX targeted for M88100 CPUs >> (specifically Aviion)? Any version >> >> Thanks, >> >> -Alan From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Oct 11 02:44:17 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 09:44:17 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Digico computer In-Reply-To: <5B0550EE0C656A99@rgout04.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) References: <5B321EA009191A34@rgout01.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) <5B0550EE0C656A99@rgout04.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Oct 2018, it was written > Did you contact the guy with the drawings? Yes but I haven't heard back from him, yet. At least the mail hasn't bounced. Does anyone know the person who runs vintage-icl-computers.com ? There is no name, address or anything there, and I wonder if the site is still alive. Christian From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Oct 11 03:22:53 2018 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 09:22:53 +0100 Subject: Digico computer In-Reply-To: References: <5B321EA009191A34@rgout01.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) <5B0550EE0C656A99@rgout04.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) Message-ID: <02d301d4613b$9b6eed90$d24cc8b0$@gmail.com> WHOIS shows domain was renewed June time... Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Christian Corti > via cctalk > Sent: 11 October 2018 08:44 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: RE: Digico computer > > On Wed, 10 Oct 2018, it was written > > Did you contact the guy with the drawings? > > Yes but I haven't heard back from him, yet. At least the mail hasn't bounced. > Does anyone know the person who runs vintage-icl-computers.com ? > There is no name, address or anything there, and I wonder if the site is still > alive. > > Christian From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Oct 11 03:47:29 2018 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod G8DGR) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 09:47:29 +0100 Subject: Digico computer In-Reply-To: <02d301d4613b$9b6eed90$d24cc8b0$@gmail.com> References: <5B321EA009191A34@rgout01.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) <5B0550EE0C656A99@rgout04.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) <02d301d4613b$9b6eed90$d24cc8b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5B0550EE0C7FE046@rgout04.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk> (added by postmaster@btinternet.com) pete at vintage-icl-computers.com But Pete who? Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Dave Wade via cctalk Sent: 11 October 2018 09:23 To: 'Christian Corti'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Digico computer WHOIS shows domain was renewed June time... Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Christian Corti > via cctalk > Sent: 11 October 2018 08:44 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: RE: Digico computer > > On Wed, 10 Oct 2018, it was written > > Did you contact the guy with the drawings? > > Yes but I haven't heard back from him, yet. At least the mail hasn't bounced. > Does anyone know the person who runs vintage-icl-computers.com ? > There is no name, address or anything there, and I wonder if the site is still > alive. > > Christian From tingox at gmail.com Thu Oct 11 04:33:23 2018 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 11:33:23 +0200 Subject: DG/UX install media In-Reply-To: <50bf81c6208540a0f50fefac138863f7@alanlee.org> References: <014701d455c2$7f858460$7e908d20$@net> <50bf81c6208540a0f50fefac138863f7@alanlee.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 11:06 PM alan--- via cctalk wrote: > However I have not been able to read the ISO images - as they don't > appear to have the proper magic/headers for ISO. Can anyone else work > their file-type-foo on them and give me any hints? > One of them is ISO: [tingo at kg-elitebook ISOs]$ file *[iIsSoO] C2 Trusted DGUX Option Rev 5.4R3.00T.iso: data DGUX 5.4R3.00.ISO: data DGUX 5.4R3.10 Documentation.iso: ISO 9660 CD-ROM filesystem data 'DOCUMENTATION_CDROM' DGUX 5.4R3-R3.10.MU01.ISO: data Maybe they are just dumps? In whatever format DG/UX expects There could be hints on the documentation ISO. Unfortunately, the files on the documentation ISO is in "WorldView" format (aka "printerleaf") and a converter (pl2ps) can't be easily found. But - iview for Windows (NT) is on the ISO, maybe it will run under WINE? -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From lproven at gmail.com Thu Oct 11 05:25:14 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 12:25:14 +0200 Subject: DG/UX install media In-Reply-To: References: <014701d455c2$7f858460$7e908d20$@net> <50bf81c6208540a0f50fefac138863f7@alanlee.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 at 11:33, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk wrote: > > Maybe they are just dumps? In whatever format DG/UX expects > There could be hints on the documentation ISO. > Unfortunately, the files on the documentation ISO is in "WorldView" > format (aka "printerleaf") and a converter (pl2ps) can't be easily > found. > But - iview for Windows (NT) is on the ISO, maybe it will run under WINE? >From my experience with Acorn RISC OS and classic MacOS machines and CDs, I found that though they can mount and read standard CD images formats, for booting and installing, they tended to need media formatted with those OSes' own filesystems. I think VMS is the same. So there might well be an ISO image for stuff you might need on other machines, and the rest in some DG/UX filesystem -- I have never seen it so I have no idea what. AO/VS II? UFS or some variant thereof? In the spirit of blind fumbling I might just try loopback-mounting the images on a modern-ish Linux and see if it can autodetect the FS. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From alan at alanlee.org Thu Oct 11 06:42:20 2018 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 07:42:20 -0400 Subject: DG/UX install media In-Reply-To: References: <014701d455c2$7f858460$7e908d20$@net> <50bf81c6208540a0f50fefac138863f7@alanlee.org> Message-ID: I've tried loop mounting with no success. Is there a software tool (Linux or Windows) that will burn a non-ISO image to a CD? Most expect/assume ISO-9660. I don't have a keyboard or proper SCSI cable yet for my Aviion, so I can't try booting anything. I supposed I could just point a SCSI2SD emulator at those files and see what happens. Thanks, -Alan On 2018-10-11 06:25, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 at 11:33, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk > wrote: >> >> Maybe they are just dumps? In whatever format DG/UX expects >> There could be hints on the documentation ISO. >> Unfortunately, the files on the documentation ISO is in "WorldView" >> format (aka "printerleaf") and a converter (pl2ps) can't be easily >> found. >> But - iview for Windows (NT) is on the ISO, maybe it will run under >> WINE? > > From my experience with Acorn RISC OS and classic MacOS machines and > CDs, I found that though they can mount and read standard CD images > formats, for booting and installing, they tended to need media > formatted with those OSes' own filesystems. I think VMS is the same. > > So there might well be an ISO image for stuff you might need on other > machines, and the rest in some DG/UX filesystem -- I have never seen > it so I have no idea what. AO/VS II? UFS or some variant thereof? > > In the spirit of blind fumbling I might just try loopback-mounting the > images on a modern-ish Linux and see if it can autodetect the FS. From pat at vax11.net Thu Oct 11 07:06:04 2018 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 08:06:04 -0400 Subject: DG/UX install media In-Reply-To: References: <014701d455c2$7f858460$7e908d20$@net> <50bf81c6208540a0f50fefac138863f7@alanlee.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 11, 2018, 07:42 alan--- via cctalk wrote: > > I've tried loop mounting with no success. Is there a software tool > (Linux or Windows) that will burn a non-ISO image to a CD? Most > expect/assume ISO-9660. > cdrecord or wodim should burn anything you want to the disk. They wouldn't care if it contains an iso9660 filesystem or not. Pat From lproven at gmail.com Thu Oct 11 09:01:53 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 16:01:53 +0200 Subject: DG/UX install media In-Reply-To: References: <014701d455c2$7f858460$7e908d20$@net> <50bf81c6208540a0f50fefac138863f7@alanlee.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 at 13:42, alan--- via cctalk wrote: > > I've tried loop mounting with no success. Is there a software tool > (Linux or Windows) that will burn a non-ISO image to a CD? Most > expect/assume ISO-9660. On Windows (a few years ago, I no longer run it in normal use), my personal favourite was ImgBurn. Simple, free, Just Works?. http://www.imgburn.com/ >From the site: ? ImgBurn supports a wide range of image file formats - including BIN, CCD, CDI, CUE, DI, DVD, GI, IMG, ISO, MDS, NRG and PDI. ? -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From haskins.sophie at gmail.com Thu Oct 11 10:02:03 2018 From: haskins.sophie at gmail.com (Sophie Haskins) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 11:02:03 -0400 Subject: DG/UX install media In-Reply-To: References: <014701d455c2$7f858460$7e908d20$@net> <50bf81c6208540a0f50fefac138863f7@alanlee.org> Message-ID: I'm pretty sure these are just raw images, as Torfinn suggested. If you run strings(1) on them, you see the contents of all sorts of shell scripts and the text portion of binaries, etc. I'm guessing that the images have a partition table header that libmagic just doesn't know about. I'm waiting on a new NVRAM chip to arrive in order to boot my AViiON from these disks - if that arrives before we verify the disks, I'll report back with how it goes. On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 10:02 AM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 at 13:42, alan--- via cctalk wrote: > > > > I've tried loop mounting with no success. Is there a software tool > > (Linux or Windows) that will burn a non-ISO image to a CD? Most > > expect/assume ISO-9660. > > On Windows (a few years ago, I no longer run it in normal use), my > personal favourite was ImgBurn. Simple, free, Just Works?. > > http://www.imgburn.com/ > > From the site: > > ? > ImgBurn supports a wide range of image file formats - including BIN, > CCD, CDI, CUE, DI, DVD, GI, IMG, ISO, MDS, NRG and PDI. > ? > > -- > Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From alan at alanlee.org Thu Oct 11 10:38:10 2018 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 11:38:10 -0400 Subject: DG/UX install media In-Reply-To: References: <014701d455c2$7f858460$7e908d20$@net> <50bf81c6208540a0f50fefac138863f7@alanlee.org> Message-ID: <8d9e50d453547d441bf62c46a3fd5933@alanlee.org> If you haven't found it already: https://secure.ping.de/~fdc/m88k/av300/nvram.html -Alan On 2018-10-11 11:02, Sophie Haskins via cctalk wrote: > I'm pretty sure these are just raw images, as Torfinn suggested. If > you run strings(1) on them, you see the contents of all sorts of shell > scripts and the text portion of binaries, etc. I'm guessing that the > images have a partition table header that libmagic just doesn't know > about. > > I'm waiting on a new NVRAM chip to arrive in order to boot my AViiON > from these disks - if that arrives before we verify the disks, I'll > report back with how it goes. > From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Oct 11 17:01:49 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 17:01:49 -0500 Subject: VT320 Fonts Message-ID: Does anyone know of any more downloadable VT320 fonts and glyphs? This is about all I could find at the moment. https://vt100.net/dec/vt320/fonts Trying to find some Cyrillic fonts so that Tetris looks right. I suppose I can try to write my own, but that would take a good bit of effort to get it looking right. Also, is there a way to dump the existing font on a VT320 in the DRCS format? Thanks, Kyle From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Oct 11 18:17:24 2018 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 16:17:24 -0700 Subject: DG/UX install media In-Reply-To: References: <014701d455c2$7f858460$7e908d20$@net> <50bf81c6208540a0f50fefac138863f7@alanlee.org> Message-ID: On 10/11/2018 2:33 AM, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 11:06 PM alan--- via cctalk > wrote: > >> However I have not been able to read the ISO images - as they don't >> appear to have the proper magic/headers for ISO. Can anyone else work >> their file-type-foo on them and give me any hints? >> > One of them is ISO: > [tingo at kg-elitebook ISOs]$ file *[iIsSoO] > C2 Trusted DGUX Option Rev 5.4R3.00T.iso: data > DGUX 5.4R3.00.ISO: data > DGUX 5.4R3.10 Documentation.iso: ISO 9660 CD-ROM filesystem > data 'DOCUMENTATION_CDROM' > DGUX 5.4R3-R3.10.MU01.ISO: data > > Maybe they are just dumps? In whatever format DG/UX expects > There could be hints on the documentation ISO. > Unfortunately, the files on the documentation ISO is in "WorldView" > format (aka "printerleaf") and a converter (pl2ps) can't be easily > found. > But - iview for Windows (NT) is on the ISO, maybe it will run under WINE? > -- > Regards, > Torfinn Ingolfsen I looked at the three "data" ISOs, and there is something going on which appears to be a 512 byte related relation. Also two of them have a reference to bad blocks, which are probably not related to cdroms. Someone else suggested these were dumps of hard drives or such, which seems very likely. Not surprising that they are not making sense as an ISO image. thanks jim From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Oct 11 21:58:12 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 19:58:12 -0700 Subject: DG/UX install media In-Reply-To: References: <014701d455c2$7f858460$7e908d20$@net> <50bf81c6208540a0f50fefac138863f7@alanlee.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 4:17 PM jim stephens via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 10/11/2018 2:33 AM, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 11:06 PM alan--- via cctalk > > wrote: > > > >> However I have not been able to read the ISO images - as they don't > >> appear to have the proper magic/headers for ISO. Can anyone else work > >> their file-type-foo on them and give me any hints? > >> > > One of them is ISO: > > [tingo at kg-elitebook ISOs]$ file *[iIsSoO] > > C2 Trusted DGUX Option Rev 5.4R3.00T.iso: data > > DGUX 5.4R3.00.ISO: data > > DGUX 5.4R3.10 Documentation.iso: ISO 9660 CD-ROM filesystem > > data 'DOCUMENTATION_CDROM' > > DGUX 5.4R3-R3.10.MU01.ISO: data > > > > Maybe they are just dumps? In whatever format DG/UX expects > > There could be hints on the documentation ISO. > > Unfortunately, the files on the documentation ISO is in "WorldView" > > format (aka "printerleaf") and a converter (pl2ps) can't be easily > > found. > > But - iview for Windows (NT) is on the ISO, maybe it will run under WINE? > > -- > > Regards, > > Torfinn Ingolfsen > I looked at the three "data" ISOs, and there is something going on which > appears to be a 512 byte related relation. > > Also two of them have a reference to bad blocks, which are probably not > related to cdroms. > > Someone else suggested these were dumps of hard drives or such, which > seems very likely. > Not surprising that they are not making sense as an ISO image. > > thanks > jim > FYI: I just burned "DGUX 5.43-R3.10.MU1.ISO to disc and booted it successfully on my AViiON 8500. Haven't tried the others yet, but I'm guessing they're OK too. - Josh From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Oct 12 04:40:16 2018 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 11:40:16 +0200 Subject: VT320 Fonts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20181012094016.GL6450@Update.UU.SE> I have Cyrillic fonts I used on a VT220 to play tetris. Given to me by a listmember. Let me look for them. Remind me if I forget. /P On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 05:01:49PM -0500, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone know of any more downloadable VT320 fonts and glyphs? This is > about all I could find at the moment. > > https://vt100.net/dec/vt320/fonts > > Trying to find some Cyrillic fonts so that Tetris looks right. I suppose I > can try to write my own, but that would take a good bit of effort to get it > looking right. > > Also, is there a way to dump the existing font on a VT320 in the DRCS > format? > > Thanks, > > Kyle From alan at alanlee.org Fri Oct 12 06:54:51 2018 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 07:54:51 -0400 Subject: DG/UX install media In-Reply-To: References: <014701d455c2$7f858460$7e908d20$@net> <50bf81c6208540a0f50fefac138863f7@alanlee.org> Message-ID: <5e0d7aa2124952218589040b4d9fc38c@alanlee.org> Thanks Josh! I knew you were good for something despite what Stephan says... :) -Alan On 2018-10-11 22:58, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > FYI: I just burned "DGUX 5.43-R3.10.MU1.ISO to disc and booted it > successfully on my AViiON 8500. > > Haven't tried the others yet, but I'm guessing they're OK too. > > - Josh From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Oct 12 11:34:29 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 10:34:29 -0600 Subject: Wanted: tech docs on original Iomega 8-inch full height 10MB Bernoulli drive (Alpha-10) Message-ID: Does anyone have the user, technical and/or service manual for the original 10MB Iomega Bernoulli drives? Bitsavers has the manuals for the later half-height 10.0/10.5 MB "Alpha-10H", but I'm looking for docs for the original model, which was full-height with a SASI (pre-SCSI) interface. I have the drives, about 20 cartridges that I want to image, and some additional scratch cartridges. I've never used Bernoulli drives before. These drives and cartridges were last used around 1986. I'll disconnect and test the power supply before powering up the actual drives, but is there anything else I should be concerned with? Does anyone have known-working 8-inch Bernoulli drives? From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Fri Oct 12 19:22:03 2018 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 17:22:03 -0700 Subject: DG/UX install media In-Reply-To: References: <014701d455c2$7f858460$7e908d20$@net> <50bf81c6208540a0f50fefac138863f7@alanlee.org> Message-ID: <5FBAF559-925C-4A83-9A14-56F2B51670D8@eschatologist.net> On Oct 11, 2018, at 8:02 AM, Sophie Haskins via cctalk wrote: > > I'm pretty sure these are just raw images, as Torfinn suggested. Sophie is correct. What?s commonly referred to as an ISO is just a raw dump of the bytes on a volume; there?s no imposed structure, no imposed file headers, nothing like that. Some people would like it to mean ?an image of an ISO-9660 filesystem? but that?s almost never been the case. For example, an ?ISO? of a Silicon Graphics installation CD-ROM will probably start with the Irix volume header, rather than anything ISO-9660 related. So if you get something calling itself an ISO, you need to know its provenance before you can actually do anything with it, because even if it?s a dump of the bytes on a CD-ROM, it has no formal structure. -- Chris From trash80 at internode.on.net Fri Oct 12 17:00:44 2018 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2018 09:00:44 +1100 Subject: VT320 Fonts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <04e201d46277$06cbb230$14631690$@internode.on.net> Try doing a search on google for "fonts terminal" (without the quotes) and you may find something suitable amongst the results. Kevin Parker -----Original Message----- From: cctech On Behalf Of Kyle Owen via cctech Sent: Friday, 12 October 2018 09:02 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: VT320 Fonts Does anyone know of any more downloadable VT320 fonts and glyphs? This is about all I could find at the moment. https://vt100.net/dec/vt320/fonts Trying to find some Cyrillic fonts so that Tetris looks right. I suppose I can try to write my own, but that would take a good bit of effort to get it looking right. Also, is there a way to dump the existing font on a VT320 in the DRCS format? Thanks, Kyle From t.gardner at computer.org Sat Oct 13 15:36:11 2018 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2018 13:36:11 -0700 Subject: Old Univac Tape and Printer Maintenance Manuals Message-ID: <007f01d46334$614ccf60$23e66e20$@computer.org> Hi: I'm looking for maintenance manuals for old Univac tape and printers. I've already mined Bitsavers and done some fairly extensive Google searches but would like manuals on: Tapes: Uniservo IIA, IIIA or IIIC, VIC, VIIIC, 12, 16 or 20 Printers: 0751, 0755 (used on 1108), 0758 (used on 1108 and 494), 0768 (used on 92/9300) or 0770 series (used on 1100) Pointers to on line versions would be appreciated. If you have hardcopies I'll be happy to buy them and give back a scan, or pay for the scan. Tom From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Oct 13 17:19:15 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2018 18:19:15 -0400 Subject: Old Univac Tape and Printer Maintenance Manuals In-Reply-To: <007f01d46334$614ccf60$23e66e20$@computer.org> References: <007f01d46334$614ccf60$23e66e20$@computer.org> Message-ID: <1666f831cc3-1ec1-260b@webjas-vad232.srv.aolmail.net> Tom will check I was looking thru some univac stuff. and saw ..trying to find manuals for that odd freiden flexowritrer sorta thing that was used on univac 422 that has a punch and reader that...separates. YES SEPERATES! from the side of the typer... so weird I must have one of these... .. having a univac 422 attached to it would be a real bonus... do you have any of those? OK back to your manuals.. will check this evening. ed# www.smecc.org Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Saturday, October 13, 2018 Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: Hi: I'm looking for maintenance manuals for old Univac tape and printers. I've already mined Bitsavers and done some fairly extensive Google searches but would like manuals on: Tapes: Uniservo IIA, IIIA or IIIC, VIC, VIIIC, 12, 16 or 20 Printers: 0751, 0755 (used on 1108), 0758 (used on 1108 and 494), 0768 (used on 92/9300) or 0770 series (used on 1100) Pointers to on line versions would be appreciated. If you have hardcopies I'll be happy to buy them and give back a scan, or pay for the scan. Tom From gordon+cctalk at drogon.net Sat Oct 13 13:29:32 2018 From: gordon+cctalk at drogon.net (Gordon Henderson) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2018 19:29:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Altos 386/1000 boot/diags images? In-Reply-To: <4d9484e4-2d12-efbb-641f-70ecc078dd91@bitsavers.org> References: <46ca064e-74dc-c64d-f2fa-241077992e6d@bitsavers.org> <2cc71fb1-8f6a-f604-3554-1789fce696fb@bitsavers.org> <4d9484e4-2d12-efbb-641f-70ecc078dd91@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Oct 2018, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 10/10/18 8:56 AM, Gordon Henderson via cctalk wrote: > >> I will - once I've worked out how to open it. Took the plastic covers >> off to find an enclosed steel case. Tin opener? > > there are pictures of the one I have open at > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/altos/386/photos So that was very helpful, thanks. Knowing now that it's a sort of hinge made all the difference - it was not initially obvious. And yes, it was the Lithium RTC battery that was flat. I've temp. fitted a different type of battery and lo and behold, it's booted just fine. # uname -a unix Altos 5.3.1 b 386/1000 (empty) (empty) (empty) 11 It's an older full-height 5.25" SCSI drive by the looks of it - not sure I want to take it out right now to image it, but once I've re-remembered the horrors of uucp, kermit or however else I can get stuff on/off it via serial port... (ugh. no uucp, but it does have a C compiler, vi and make, what more do I need ;-) Looks like it's the base model with 8 serial ports, 4MB of RAM and a 386/DX-16 ... a bit faster than a pdp11, but ... Now, about this Y2K thing... hardware RTC seems fine with it, but SysVr3... Nope )-: Cheers, Gordon From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 13 17:55:19 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2018 15:55:19 -0700 Subject: Old Univac Tape and Printer Maintenance Manuals In-Reply-To: <007f01d46334$614ccf60$23e66e20$@computer.org> References: <007f01d46334$614ccf60$23e66e20$@computer.org> Message-ID: <304d36df-d5b6-5c3a-6b2a-cbff187854c1@bitsavers.org> hopefully, Jim Stevens was able to save some of the docs from the Univac III On 10/13/18 1:36 PM, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > Hi: > > I'm looking for maintenance manuals for old Univac tape and printers. I've > already mined Bitsavers and done some fairly extensive Google searches but > would like manuals on: > > Tapes: Uniservo IIA, IIIA or IIIC, VIC, VIIIC, 12, 16 or 20 > Printers: 0751, 0755 (used on 1108), 0758 (used on 1108 and 494), 0768 (used > on 92/9300) or 0770 series (used on 1100) > > Pointers to on line versions would be appreciated. If you have hardcopies > I'll be happy to buy them and give back a scan, or pay for the scan. > > Tom > From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 13 17:56:36 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2018 15:56:36 -0700 Subject: Old Univac Tape and Printer Maintenance Manuals In-Reply-To: <304d36df-d5b6-5c3a-6b2a-cbff187854c1@bitsavers.org> References: <007f01d46334$614ccf60$23e66e20$@computer.org> <304d36df-d5b6-5c3a-6b2a-cbff187854c1@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: You may also need to make a field trip to CBI to check the Univac corporate archives On 10/13/18 3:55 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > hopefully, Jim Stevens was able to save some of the docs from the Univac III > > On 10/13/18 1:36 PM, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: >> Hi: >> >> I'm looking for maintenance manuals for old Univac tape and printers. I've >> already mined Bitsavers and done some fairly extensive Google searches but >> would like manuals on: >> >> Tapes: Uniservo IIA, IIIA or IIIC, VIC, VIIIC, 12, 16 or 20 >> Printers: 0751, 0755 (used on 1108), 0758 (used on 1108 and 494), 0768 (used >> on 92/9300) or 0770 series (used on 1100) >> >> Pointers to on line versions would be appreciated. If you have hardcopies >> I'll be happy to buy them and give back a scan, or pay for the scan. >> >> Tom >> > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sat Oct 13 18:01:29 2018 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2018 16:01:29 -0700 Subject: Old Univac Tape and Printer Maintenance Manuals In-Reply-To: <304d36df-d5b6-5c3a-6b2a-cbff187854c1@bitsavers.org> References: <007f01d46334$614ccf60$23e66e20$@computer.org> <304d36df-d5b6-5c3a-6b2a-cbff187854c1@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Bill Donzelli may have things in the part of the Univac load he has either in OKC or at his place. I gathered all the documentation on the remains of a stolen Univac III system I could, along with all the tapes. Muffed an opportunity to get the tapes to Al K for digitizing, will organize another run when he has capacity to tackle it. There is also a Uniservo that was overlooked in the heist that was rescued, but not enough to run it much, just the drive. thanks jim On 10/13/2018 3:55 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > hopefully, Jim Stevens was able to save some of the docs from the Univac III > > On 10/13/18 1:36 PM, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: >> Hi: >> >> I'm looking for maintenance manuals for old Univac tape and printers. I've >> already mined Bitsavers and done some fairly extensive Google searches but >> would like manuals on: >> >> Tapes: Uniservo IIA, IIIA or IIIC, VIC, VIIIC, 12, 16 or 20 >> Printers: 0751, 0755 (used on 1108), 0758 (used on 1108 and 494), 0768 (used >> on 92/9300) or 0770 series (used on 1100) >> >> Pointers to on line versions would be appreciated. If you have hardcopies >> I'll be happy to buy them and give back a scan, or pay for the scan. >> >> Tom >> > From mbbrutman at brutman.com Sun Oct 14 18:29:45 2018 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael Brutman) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2018 16:29:45 -0700 Subject: Wanted: tech docs on original Iomega 8-inch full height 10MB Bernoulli drive (Alpha-10) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Eric, I have working 10MB and 20MB units here being driven by a PC XT with the Iomega specific card for them. I've had to puts lots of effort into cleaning the heads on them. I'm not sure if there is an oxide shedding problem or just 30 years of dust that I'm fighting, but they do seem to be very finicky at this stage. It also could be a media formatting problem; I think they have servo tracks that were laid down at manufacturing time, so if you have a read error on the servo track there is no way to fix it. Mike On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 9:34 AM Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone have the user, technical and/or service manual for the original > 10MB Iomega Bernoulli drives? Bitsavers has the manuals for the later > half-height 10.0/10.5 MB "Alpha-10H", but I'm looking for docs for the > original model, which was full-height with a SASI (pre-SCSI) interface. > > I have the drives, about 20 cartridges that I want to image, and some > additional scratch cartridges. > > I've never used Bernoulli drives before. These drives and cartridges were > last used around 1986. I'll disconnect and test the power supply before > powering up the actual drives, but is there anything else I should be > concerned with? > > Does anyone have known-working 8-inch Bernoulli drives? > From mbbrutman at brutman.com Sun Oct 14 19:18:01 2018 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael Brutman) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2018 17:18:01 -0700 Subject: Reminder: VCF Pacific Northwest 2019 - We need you! Message-ID: The short story: we need exhibitors, speakers and volunteers to have an event. We are off to a good start but we all know time flies when you are having fun, and March isn't that far away. When: Saturday and Sunday, March 23rd-24th 2019 Where: Seattle, WA at Living Computers:museum+labs Event page: http://vcfed.org/vcf-pnw Pictures from 2018: https://photos.app.goo.gl/QPfZ4WXPdIdUo5gn2 Exhibitor registration: http://vcfed.org/wp/vcf-pnw-exhibitor-registration/ Have a question? Nervous about being a first time exhibitor? Want to help but don't know how? Send me an email ... I'd be happy to talk to you. -Mike mbbrutman at brutman.com or michael at vcfed.org From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Oct 14 19:57:27 2018 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2018 19:57:27 -0500 Subject: Iso: Apple IIe parts Message-ID: Folks, A neglected Apple IIe showed up in my life, and now I find myself needing a few parts. Specifically: - AY-5-3600 keyboard encoder IC - Several key studs, maybe a couple of keys Anyone have a donor machine? Bill From pat at vax11.net Sun Oct 14 20:28:41 2018 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2018 21:28:41 -0400 Subject: TeleVideo Systems stuff Message-ID: After VCFMW this year, I've been looking at old projects I have and was wondering if anyone has any leads on TeleVideo systems. I'm looking for TS-800 terminals/systems, and interested in probably any 1980s Televideo terminals, depending on price, especially the 950, and 965s... and keyboards for them. I'd also like to find a TPC-II (the 8088-based portable computer). I used to have one growing up, and there's a bit of nostalgia there. It seems like there's more Televideo stuff lately than I remember being on eBay before, but it's all fairly expensive, especially the computers. I have picked up a few affordable things (970 & 965 terminals missing some keyboards and a TS-803 that I'm still waiting on). I have a couple of TS-801's, TS-806C and a TS-816 that are in various states of repair, that I've been poking at. I also have various Qbus era DEC stuff that I could probably trade for it. Any leads would be appreciated! Thanks, Pat From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Oct 14 21:31:50 2018 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2018 21:31:50 -0500 Subject: Apple IIe addendum Message-ID: Folks, Yay, I was wrong! The IC seems to be OK, the issue was a stuck-on kb switch. A quirk of the Apple design causes the last-pressed key to repeat continuously if any key is being held 'on'. That leaves me needing two kb switches and possibly one 'tilde' key. This is the beige IIe kb with small black print. Thanks for the space, Bill From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Oct 14 23:55:51 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 04:55:51 +0000 Subject: Apple IIe addendum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: These machines used at least two different key switches, that I've seen. I've been looking for a broken key switch and the one a friend had was different. Mine has a broken post on one key. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of drlegendre via cctalk Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2018 7:31:50 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Apple IIe addendum Folks, Yay, I was wrong! The IC seems to be OK, the issue was a stuck-on kb switch. A quirk of the Apple design causes the last-pressed key to repeat continuously if any key is being held 'on'. That leaves me needing two kb switches and possibly one 'tilde' key. This is the beige IIe kb with small black print. Thanks for the space, Bill From wkt at tuhs.org Mon Oct 15 14:56:22 2018 From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 05:56:22 +1000 Subject: Ultrix Tape: Block Size? Message-ID: <20181015195622.GB25749@minnie.tuhs.org> All, I received this request from Matthew who isn't subscribed to either the TUHS or cctalk lists. He knows how to read the lists archives. Many thanks for any help you can provide. Cheers, Warren ----- Forwarded message from Matthew Whitehead ----- Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 08:25:39 -0400 From: Matthew Whitehead Subject: Ultrix Tape Blocks Warren, I wonder if you can give me a referral. I want to install Ultrix-32 on my MicroVAX II using the ancient TK-50 tape drive. I know the tape files are on your archive, but I need to know the block size for each of the many files; it can vary a lot. Who might be able to help me with this? Matthew Whitehead ----- End forwarded message ----- From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 15:04:01 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 14:04:01 -0600 Subject: Wanted: tech docs on original Iomega 8-inch full height 10MB Bernoulli drive (Alpha-10) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mike, The Bernoulli disks definitely do use servo, so as you say, if the servo patterns are damaged the data is toast. Do you have any advice on head cleaning? The docs on the second-generation drive (Alpha-10H) just say to use a cleaning cartridge, and I don't have one. I've cleaned floppy drive heads with isopropyl and a lint-free swab, but I'm reluctant to do this to the Alpha-10 without advice from someone who's done it. Best regards, Eric From imp at bsdimp.com Mon Oct 15 16:34:09 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 15:34:09 -0600 Subject: [TUHS] Ultrix Tape: Block Size? In-Reply-To: References: <20181015195622.GB25749@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: I'm glad you corrected because when they worked, they were awesome. When they didn't, life had a lot of swearing in it... And when I was sysadmin for the MicroVAX II that had them, I swore like a sailor.... Warner On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 3:04 PM Clem Cole wrote: > #$%^ - they >>weren't<< like DECtape from a reliability standpoint ... > ? > > On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 5:00 PM Clem Cole wrote: > >> Be careful, TK-50 is different than 9-track. It's a streamer tape like >> QIC, 4mm and 8mm. The blocking is done under the covers by the HW and the >> blovk size if just how a DMA is done. I recommend that you pre-fetch the >> read with dd or double-dd setting ibs=64k, obs=20b and conv=sync and pipe >> the output to the reader (tar/cpio or the like) [if that fails try >> obs=1b]. This should work well as can (TK-50 overall suck - don't set >> your hopes high on anything with them -- they were DECtape from a >> realiabilty standpoint, they were different from the reset of the world, >> the performance was poor and they were expensive). >> >> Anyway, by using dd or the like a front end, it will allow the read >> streamer to read as fast as it can. The problem is that the way it works >> under the cover does not shine with traditional UNIX I/O. BTW: ibs of >> anything more than 64K on a VAX (or PDP-11) will not help because of the >> dma size on the Unibus caps DMA read/writes at 64K. On a PMAX or (under >> Tru64 on a Alpha), you can try using really large ibs sizes depending on >> your physical memory size. >> >> BTW: What will help the most is actually finding a copy of the old >> double-dd program (from the UUNET archives) which forks off two child >> procees to perform the actual I/O and alternates between the two processes >> via pipe between them and controller - so one dd process is reading when >> the other dd process is writing. [It used to be called: ddd before the >> Gnu guys grabbed that name for the debugger]. The command line might be >> something like: ddd ibs=64k obs=20b | tar xvpf - >> >> FWIW: I wrote a version of a fast dd years ago that used pthreads and a >> semaphore that I should still have kicking around. At one point when I >> was dealing with streamer tapes for backup, I definitely ran it on Tru64 >> and FreeBSD, but I've forgotten where Ultrix fell. >> ? >> >> On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 4:01 PM Warren Toomey wrote: >> >>> All, I received this request from Matthew who isn't subscribed to either >>> the TUHS or cctalk lists. He knows how to read the lists archives. Many >>> thanks for any help you can provide. >>> Cheers, Warren >>> >>> ----- Forwarded message from Matthew Whitehead ----- >>> >>> Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 08:25:39 -0400 >>> From: Matthew Whitehead >>> Subject: Ultrix Tape Blocks >>> >>> Warren, >>> I wonder if you can give me a referral. I want to install Ultrix-32 >>> on my MicroVAX II using the ancient TK-50 tape drive. I know the tape >>> files are on your archive, but I need to know the block size for each >>> of the many files; it can vary a lot. >>> Who might be able to help me with this? >>> Matthew Whitehead >>> >>> ----- End forwarded message ----- >>> >> From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Mon Oct 15 16:52:40 2018 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 22:52:40 +0100 Subject: Ultrix Tape: Block Size? In-Reply-To: <20181015195622.GB25749@minnie.tuhs.org> References: <20181015195622.GB25749@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: <87woqiubbr.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> If it is anything like installing NetBSD, which I have done on a VAXstation with a DLT4 drive, it should be 512 byte. So, while I do not know for sure for Ultrix and MicroVAX, 512 is probably a good starting point? Hopefully someone else will *actually* know. Aaron Warren Toomey via cctalk writes: > All, I received this request from Matthew who isn't subscribed to either > the TUHS or cctalk lists. He knows how to read the lists archives. Many > thanks for any help you can provide. > Cheers, Warren > > ----- Forwarded message from Matthew Whitehead ----- > > Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 08:25:39 -0400 > From: Matthew Whitehead > Subject: Ultrix Tape Blocks > > Warren, > I wonder if you can give me a referral. I want to install Ultrix-32 > on my MicroVAX II using the ancient TK-50 tape drive. I know the tape > files are on your archive, but I need to know the block size for each > of the many files; it can vary a lot. > Who might be able to help me with this? > Matthew Whitehead > > ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Aaron Jackson - M6PIU http://aaronsplace.co.uk/ From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon Oct 15 17:11:35 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 15:11:35 -0700 Subject: Paul Allen - RIP Message-ID: <2CFBEEB9-23B6-4FBE-859B-63FA2FDCF9BE@avanthar.com> https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/microsoft-co-founder-paul-allen-dies-at-65/281-604572895 Paul Allen just died. Zane From ethan at 757.org Mon Oct 15 17:40:45 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 18:40:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Paul Allen - RIP In-Reply-To: <2CFBEEB9-23B6-4FBE-859B-63FA2FDCF9BE@avanthar.com> References: <2CFBEEB9-23B6-4FBE-859B-63FA2FDCF9BE@avanthar.com> Message-ID: > https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/microsoft-co-founder-paul-allen-dies-at-65/281-604572895 > Paul Allen just died. > Zane Bummer! -- : Ethan O'Toole From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 17:53:00 2018 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 18:53:00 -0400 Subject: Paul Allen Message-ID: One of the founders of MicroSoft has passed on. The world has lost a true early computer pioneer. Murray-- From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Oct 15 18:28:21 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 00:28:21 +0100 Subject: Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20181015232826.2EC2727495@mx1.ezwind.net> And an important figure in the preservation of computer history to boot. A very sad day. Sent from my Windows 10 device From: Murray McCullough via cctalk Sent: 15 October 2018 23:53 To: cctalk Subject: Paul Allen One of the founders of MicroSoft has passed on. The world has lost a true early computer pioneer. Murray-- From clemc at ccc.com Mon Oct 15 16:00:27 2018 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 17:00:27 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Ultrix Tape: Block Size? In-Reply-To: <20181015195622.GB25749@minnie.tuhs.org> References: <20181015195622.GB25749@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: Be careful, TK-50 is different than 9-track. It's a streamer tape like QIC, 4mm and 8mm. The blocking is done under the covers by the HW and the blovk size if just how a DMA is done. I recommend that you pre-fetch the read with dd or double-dd setting ibs=64k, obs=20b and conv=sync and pipe the output to the reader (tar/cpio or the like) [if that fails try obs=1b]. This should work well as can (TK-50 overall suck - don't set your hopes high on anything with them -- they were DECtape from a realiabilty standpoint, they were different from the reset of the world, the performance was poor and they were expensive). Anyway, by using dd or the like a front end, it will allow the read streamer to read as fast as it can. The problem is that the way it works under the cover does not shine with traditional UNIX I/O. BTW: ibs of anything more than 64K on a VAX (or PDP-11) will not help because of the dma size on the Unibus caps DMA read/writes at 64K. On a PMAX or (under Tru64 on a Alpha), you can try using really large ibs sizes depending on your physical memory size. BTW: What will help the most is actually finding a copy of the old double-dd program (from the UUNET archives) which forks off two child procees to perform the actual I/O and alternates between the two processes via pipe between them and controller - so one dd process is reading when the other dd process is writing. [It used to be called: ddd before the Gnu guys grabbed that name for the debugger]. The command line might be something like: ddd ibs=64k obs=20b | tar xvpf - FWIW: I wrote a version of a fast dd years ago that used pthreads and a semaphore that I should still have kicking around. At one point when I was dealing with streamer tapes for backup, I definitely ran it on Tru64 and FreeBSD, but I've forgotten where Ultrix fell. ? On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 4:01 PM Warren Toomey wrote: > All, I received this request from Matthew who isn't subscribed to either > the TUHS or cctalk lists. He knows how to read the lists archives. Many > thanks for any help you can provide. > Cheers, Warren > > ----- Forwarded message from Matthew Whitehead ----- > > Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 08:25:39 -0400 > From: Matthew Whitehead > Subject: Ultrix Tape Blocks > > Warren, > I wonder if you can give me a referral. I want to install Ultrix-32 > on my MicroVAX II using the ancient TK-50 tape drive. I know the tape > files are on your archive, but I need to know the block size for each > of the many files; it can vary a lot. > Who might be able to help me with this? > Matthew Whitehead > > ----- End forwarded message ----- > From clemc at ccc.com Mon Oct 15 16:01:42 2018 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 17:01:42 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Ultrix Tape: Block Size? In-Reply-To: References: <20181015195622.GB25749@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: #$%^ - they >>weren't<< like DECtape from a reliability standpoint ... ? On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 5:00 PM Clem Cole wrote: > Be careful, TK-50 is different than 9-track. It's a streamer tape like > QIC, 4mm and 8mm. The blocking is done under the covers by the HW and the > blovk size if just how a DMA is done. I recommend that you pre-fetch the > read with dd or double-dd setting ibs=64k, obs=20b and conv=sync and pipe > the output to the reader (tar/cpio or the like) [if that fails try > obs=1b]. This should work well as can (TK-50 overall suck - don't set > your hopes high on anything with them -- they were DECtape from a > realiabilty standpoint, they were different from the reset of the world, > the performance was poor and they were expensive). > > Anyway, by using dd or the like a front end, it will allow the read > streamer to read as fast as it can. The problem is that the way it works > under the cover does not shine with traditional UNIX I/O. BTW: ibs of > anything more than 64K on a VAX (or PDP-11) will not help because of the > dma size on the Unibus caps DMA read/writes at 64K. On a PMAX or (under > Tru64 on a Alpha), you can try using really large ibs sizes depending on > your physical memory size. > > BTW: What will help the most is actually finding a copy of the old > double-dd program (from the UUNET archives) which forks off two child > procees to perform the actual I/O and alternates between the two processes > via pipe between them and controller - so one dd process is reading when > the other dd process is writing. [It used to be called: ddd before the > Gnu guys grabbed that name for the debugger]. The command line might be > something like: ddd ibs=64k obs=20b | tar xvpf - > > FWIW: I wrote a version of a fast dd years ago that used pthreads and a > semaphore that I should still have kicking around. At one point when I > was dealing with streamer tapes for backup, I definitely ran it on Tru64 > and FreeBSD, but I've forgotten where Ultrix fell. > ? > > On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 4:01 PM Warren Toomey wrote: > >> All, I received this request from Matthew who isn't subscribed to either >> the TUHS or cctalk lists. He knows how to read the lists archives. Many >> thanks for any help you can provide. >> Cheers, Warren >> >> ----- Forwarded message from Matthew Whitehead ----- >> >> Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 08:25:39 -0400 >> From: Matthew Whitehead >> Subject: Ultrix Tape Blocks >> >> Warren, >> I wonder if you can give me a referral. I want to install Ultrix-32 >> on my MicroVAX II using the ancient TK-50 tape drive. I know the tape >> files are on your archive, but I need to know the block size for each >> of the many files; it can vary a lot. >> Who might be able to help me with this? >> Matthew Whitehead >> >> ----- End forwarded message ----- >> > From ian.primus.ccmp at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 23:42:16 2018 From: ian.primus.ccmp at gmail.com (Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 00:42:16 -0400 Subject: Wanted: tech docs on original Iomega 8-inch full height 10MB Bernoulli drive (Alpha-10) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I can confirm that the media is starting to degrade - at least, it does if it wasn't stored properly. I have a couple of cartridges here that are shedding badly. You can manually open the cartridge by tripping the catches and sliding the door open, and look at it. Here's a picture of such a shedding/unusable cartridge after an attempt to read it: https://i.imgur.com/Pb4AyQo.jpg The oxide clogs the heads up pretty good - it's vital to keep the heads clean and to inspect cartridges before using them so you don't gunk them up. Look for dull/chalky looking media. Obviously any mold spots are bad as well. And if you do get a bunch of read errors (clunking noise), be sure to check and clean the heads before using a good cartridge. I'm not sure if the oxide buildup will damage otherwise good media, but I can't help but think it might. I do have a fully working 10MB drive and controller, and the ability to image cartridges. I'd love to find more actual technical documentation on these drives as well, everything I know about them is from getting mine to run. I'm also always looking for more cartridges. -Ian On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 9:59 PM Michael Brutman via cctalk wrote: > > Hi Eric, > > I have working 10MB and 20MB units here being driven by a PC XT with the > Iomega specific card for them. > > I've had to puts lots of effort into cleaning the heads on them. I'm not > sure if there is an oxide shedding problem or just 30 years of dust that > I'm fighting, but they do seem to be very finicky at this stage. It also > could be a media formatting problem; I think they have servo tracks that > were laid down at manufacturing time, so if you have a read error on the > servo track there is no way to fix it. > > > Mike > > > On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 9:34 AM Eric Smith via cctalk > wrote: > > > Does anyone have the user, technical and/or service manual for the original > > 10MB Iomega Bernoulli drives? Bitsavers has the manuals for the later > > half-height 10.0/10.5 MB "Alpha-10H", but I'm looking for docs for the > > original model, which was full-height with a SASI (pre-SCSI) interface. > > > > I have the drives, about 20 cartridges that I want to image, and some > > additional scratch cartridges. > > > > I've never used Bernoulli drives before. These drives and cartridges were > > last used around 1986. I'll disconnect and test the power supply before > > powering up the actual drives, but is there anything else I should be > > concerned with? > > > > Does anyone have known-working 8-inch Bernoulli drives? > > From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Oct 16 00:21:47 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 22:21:47 -0700 Subject: Identifying TO-3 w/HP house numbering Message-ID: Hey all -- Got an HP 2382A terminal I'm attempting to resurrect. I get no video, no heater, no high voltage. What I believe to be the horizontal output transistor appears to be bad, but I'm not sure if this thing contains internal diodes that might be throwing off my testing attempts. It's labeled "1854-0900." Anyone know what this actually is? (Anyone have a service manual for this terminal?) Thanks, Josh From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Tue Oct 16 02:08:55 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 00:08:55 -0700 Subject: Identifying TO-3 w/HP house numbering In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Can't find it either in any of the X-ref lists I have. As you know already, 1854 are usually NPN transistors, but around these numbers I see mostly Darlingtons in my collection. So maybe that's what you have, and why the junctions would test weird. Marc > On Oct 15, 2018, at 10:21 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > > Hey all -- > > Got an HP 2382A terminal I'm attempting to resurrect. I get no video, no > heater, no high voltage. What I believe to be the horizontal output > transistor appears to be bad, but I'm not sure if this thing contains > internal diodes that might be throwing off my testing attempts. It's > labeled "1854-0900." Anyone know what this actually is? (Anyone have a > service manual for this terminal?) > > Thanks, > Josh From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Tue Oct 16 02:24:58 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 00:24:58 -0700 Subject: Identifying TO-3 w/HP house numbering In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <408C8807-CA50-4C8C-8A41-0F112201535A@gmail.com> Forgot to mention, I have a 2382A that works (affectionately known as the "Munchkin" terminal). I could measure some stuff in mine for comparison if that could help out. For the HP curious, the 2382A makes an appearance at the end of one of my videos: https://youtu.be/GLkhcDAOVPo?t=19m50 It is very cute (I think) ;-) Marc > On Oct 16, 2018, at 12:08 AM, Curious Marc wrote: > > Can't find it either in any of the X-ref lists I have. As you know already, 1854 are usually NPN transistors, but around these numbers I see mostly Darlingtons in my collection. So maybe that's what you have, and why the junctions would test weird. > Marc > >> On Oct 15, 2018, at 10:21 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: >> >> Hey all -- >> >> Got an HP 2382A terminal I'm attempting to resurrect. I get no video, no >> heater, no high voltage. What I believe to be the horizontal output >> transistor appears to be bad, but I'm not sure if this thing contains >> internal diodes that might be throwing off my testing attempts. It's >> labeled "1854-0900." Anyone know what this actually is? (Anyone have a >> service manual for this terminal?) >> >> Thanks, >> Josh From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Oct 16 02:33:17 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 09:33:17 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Ultrix Tape: Block Size? In-Reply-To: <20181015195622.GB25749@minnie.tuhs.org> References: <20181015195622.GB25749@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Oct 2018, Warren Toomey wrote: > All, I received this request from Matthew who isn't subscribed to either > the TUHS or cctalk lists. He knows how to read the lists archives. Many > thanks for any help you can provide. > Cheers, Warren See https://ifctfvax.superglobalmegacorp.com/releases/UNIX/thirdparty/Ultrix-32/ult420vaxdist-tk50/sup/ Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Oct 16 03:03:35 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 10:03:35 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Identifying TO-3 w/HP house numbering In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Oct 2018, Josh Dersch wrote: > Got an HP 2382A terminal I'm attempting to resurrect. I get no video, no > heater, no high voltage. What I believe to be the horizontal output > transistor appears to be bad, but I'm not sure if this thing contains > internal diodes that might be throwing off my testing attempts. It's > labeled "1854-0900." Anyone know what this actually is? (Anyone have a > service manual for this terminal?) It's possible that the video section is identical to that of the HP 120. According to Tony Duell's schematics, the HOT is a MJ10006. The HP9816, also similar in shape, uses a BUZ45. The HP150 uses HP part number "1854-0948" which is also a MJ10006. Christian From guykd at optusnet.com.au Tue Oct 16 04:48:20 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 20:48:20 +1100 Subject: Documation TM200 card reader - pinch roller restoration Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20181016204820.00dc6b38@mail.optusnet.com.au> Previously: Manual for Documation TM200 punched card reader Restoration of the mechanics of my TM200 punch card reader progresses. There's a writeup here: http://everist.org/NobLog/20180922_data_in_holes.htm#tm200 Currently I'm machining a mold to cast new pinch rollers - and there's the rub (ok kill me.) The old rubber rollers were decayed to gunk, so there's no chance of measuring their original dimensions. >From the mechanics, if they were just touching the steel capstan rollers they'd have been 27.1 mm Dia. The mechanics has no adjustment or spring tension on the pinch roller positions. Their shafts are in fixed position, so all the spring is in the rubber of the rollers. Someone who recalls seeing one of these working, says the rubber rollers turned while the capstans turned, so they must have been actually pressing on them. But how much squish? Experimenting with a similar diameter silicone roller (from a photocopier) it semes like 0.2mm of 'squish' without a card, seems to give a good grip on a card. The cards are 0.1mm thick. That gives a resting roller diameter of 27.5 mm. Obviously too much 'squish' is undesirable since the roller would get permanently deformed when left idle in one position. The 2-part silicone I'll be using for first try at casting rollers has a cured Shore A durometer rating of 60. I'm hoping someone might have some knowledge of how much punch card reader pinch rollers should press against capstans. Does 0.2mm squish seem right, or am I way off? I can try multiple iterations, boring the mold out a little more to make the rollers bigger. But it would be nice to get it right first time. I don't yet have a TM200 manual, but the M200 manuals seem to cover pretty much identical mechanics. They give no dimensions for the rubber rollers, no mention of the contact pressure, or even diagnosing if the rollers are worn. There are significant differences in the electronics between the M200 and the TM200. I'm really going to need a manual with schematics once I get to debugging and interfacing the electronics. Bitsavers only has M200 manuals, and Al Kossow doesn't seem to have had any luck with > I'm pretty sure I just saw a paper copy of the TM200 manual > which is different from the M200. I'll have to dig around to > try to find it again. If anyone can suggest a source. I'd like to buy a paper copy. Which I'll scan and post at bitsavers etc. Guy From davidkcollins2 at gmail.com Tue Oct 16 05:34:32 2018 From: davidkcollins2 at gmail.com (David Collins) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 18:34:32 +0800 Subject: Identifying TO-3 w/HP house numbering In-Reply-To: <408C8807-CA50-4C8C-8A41-0F112201535A@gmail.com> References: <408C8807-CA50-4C8C-8A41-0F112201535A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5E76B289-97BF-4194-83DF-004A051CFF22@gmail.com> The 9816 uses a BUZ45 - might be the same as the 2382? David Collins +61 424 785 131 > On 16 Oct 2018, at 3:24 pm, Curious Marc via cctech wrote: > > Forgot to mention, I have a 2382A that works (affectionately known as the "Munchkin" terminal). I could measure some stuff in mine for comparison if that could help out. > For the HP curious, the 2382A makes an appearance at the end of one of my videos: > https://youtu.be/GLkhcDAOVPo?t=19m50 > It is very cute (I think) ;-) > Marc > >> On Oct 16, 2018, at 12:08 AM, Curious Marc wrote: >> >> Can't find it either in any of the X-ref lists I have. As you know already, 1854 are usually NPN transistors, but around these numbers I see mostly Darlingtons in my collection. So maybe that's what you have, and why the junctions would test weird. >> Marc >> >>> On Oct 15, 2018, at 10:21 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> Hey all -- >>> >>> Got an HP 2382A terminal I'm attempting to resurrect. I get no video, no >>> heater, no high voltage. What I believe to be the horizontal output >>> transistor appears to be bad, but I'm not sure if this thing contains >>> internal diodes that might be throwing off my testing attempts. It's >>> labeled "1854-0900." Anyone know what this actually is? (Anyone have a >>> service manual for this terminal?) >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Josh From davidkcollins2 at gmail.com Tue Oct 16 05:34:32 2018 From: davidkcollins2 at gmail.com (David Collins) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 18:34:32 +0800 Subject: Identifying TO-3 w/HP house numbering In-Reply-To: <408C8807-CA50-4C8C-8A41-0F112201535A@gmail.com> References: <408C8807-CA50-4C8C-8A41-0F112201535A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5E76B289-97BF-4194-83DF-004A051CFF22@gmail.com> The 9816 uses a BUZ45 - might be the same as the 2382? David Collins +61 424 785 131 > On 16 Oct 2018, at 3:24 pm, Curious Marc via cctech wrote: > > Forgot to mention, I have a 2382A that works (affectionately known as the "Munchkin" terminal). I could measure some stuff in mine for comparison if that could help out. > For the HP curious, the 2382A makes an appearance at the end of one of my videos: > https://youtu.be/GLkhcDAOVPo?t=19m50 > It is very cute (I think) ;-) > Marc > >> On Oct 16, 2018, at 12:08 AM, Curious Marc wrote: >> >> Can't find it either in any of the X-ref lists I have. As you know already, 1854 are usually NPN transistors, but around these numbers I see mostly Darlingtons in my collection. So maybe that's what you have, and why the junctions would test weird. >> Marc >> >>> On Oct 15, 2018, at 10:21 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> Hey all -- >>> >>> Got an HP 2382A terminal I'm attempting to resurrect. I get no video, no >>> heater, no high voltage. What I believe to be the horizontal output >>> transistor appears to be bad, but I'm not sure if this thing contains >>> internal diodes that might be throwing off my testing attempts. It's >>> labeled "1854-0900." Anyone know what this actually is? (Anyone have a >>> service manual for this terminal?) >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Josh From steven at malikoff.com Tue Oct 16 08:17:22 2018 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 23:17:22 +1000 Subject: Documation TM200 card reader - pinch roller restoration In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20181016204820.00dc6b38@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20181016204820.00dc6b38@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <5d862c582c8597b88f837f5237c14627.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Guy said > Restoration of the mechanics of my TM200 punch card reader progresses. > There's a writeup here: http://everist.org/NobLog/20180922_data_in_holes.htm#tm200 Very interesting page, thanks > Obviously too much 'squish' is undesirable since the roller would get permanently deformed when left idle in one position. > The 2-part silicone I'll be using for first try at casting rollers has a cured Shore A durometer rating of 60. Having done some two-part urethane rubber molding at home, I found the results are quite variable and depend on accurate mixing. If you have a vacuum pump and chamber, use it as it's hard to get bubbles out otherwise. Also if the urethane absorbs moisture I found it changed from a translucent honey shade to a solid milky caramel colour, until it dried out thoroughly. But by far the biggest problem I had with home cast urethane is that is has little tolerance for cracks. The slightest split in the material can easily rip right through the cast item. Natural rubber has way better resistance to cracking in this respect. I looked into getting a forklift wheel re-rubbering shop to do the jobafter I gave up on my home effort, they use a much better urethane and cure the job properly before machining, but it wasn't cheap. I have also obtained a good chunk of unvulcanised car tyre rubber for more experimenting, I simply walked into a retread shop and they literally hacked off a strip of the stuff and handed it to me at no cost. I never got around to experimenting with it (ie attempting to vulcanise it under heat and pressure) so it's still in the shed somewhere. It may not be useable anymore after all the long hot summers it's been through. For such small rollers I would suggest just bore out some solid rubber, 60 to 80 duro perhaps, press fit and super glue on to the old boss then machine to final diameter, rather then casting. I think it would last better than home-cast urethane. Steve. From mbbrutman at brutman.com Tue Oct 16 10:03:12 2018 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael Brutman) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 08:03:12 -0700 Subject: Wanted: tech docs on original Iomega 8-inch full height 10MB Bernoulli drive (Alpha-10) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Get a cleaning cartridge ... it's the easiest way. In theory the head is slightly recessed behind the polished plate that establishes the airflow near the media; remember, the media deforms and rises toward the head, making contact with the polished plate but not touching the head. So maybe a super long foam Q-tip can get all the way in there, but that's going to be tedious. On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 1:05 PM Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > Hi Mike, > > The Bernoulli disks definitely do use servo, so as you say, if the servo > patterns are damaged the data is toast. > > Do you have any advice on head cleaning? The docs on the second-generation > drive (Alpha-10H) just say to use a cleaning cartridge, and I don't have > one. I've cleaned floppy drive heads with isopropyl and a lint-free swab, > but I'm reluctant to do this to the Alpha-10 without advice from someone > who's done it. > > Best regards, > Eric > From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Oct 16 11:18:49 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 18:18:49 +0200 Subject: Documation TM200 card reader - pinch roller restoration In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20181016204820.00dc6b38@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20181016204820.00dc6b38@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: Den tis 16 okt. 2018 kl 11:52 skrev Guy Dunphy via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org>: > Previously: Manual for Documation TM200 punched card reader > > Restoration of the mechanics of my TM200 punch card reader progresses. > There's a writeup here: > http://everist.org/NobLog/20180922_data_in_holes.htm#tm200 > > Currently I'm machining a mold to cast new pinch rollers - and there's the > rub (ok kill me.) > The old rubber rollers were decayed to gunk, so there's no chance of > measuring their original dimensions. > From the mechanics, if they were just touching the steel capstan rollers > they'd have been 27.1 mm Dia. > The mechanics has no adjustment or spring tension on the pinch roller > positions. Their shafts are in fixed > position, so all the spring is in the rubber of the rollers. > My hardened rubber rollers in my M200 measure 26.8 mm. /Mattis From pechter at gmail.com Tue Oct 16 12:23:42 2018 From: pechter at gmail.com (William Pechter) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 13:23:42 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Ultrix Tape: Block Size? In-Reply-To: References: <20181015195622.GB25749@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: <4f20854e-6269-47aa-aeaf-9e2b93aa1201.maildroid@localhost> DEC Tape II was the serial driven TU58. The TK50 was CompacTape or something like that. It was the predecessor of a number of square tapes... See DLT on Wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Linear_Tape Bill -----Original Message----- From: Paul Winalski To: Clem Cole Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society , cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 13:14 Subject: Re: [TUHS] Ultrix Tape: Block Size? On 10/15/18, Clem Cole wrote: > #$%^ - they >>weren't<< like DECtape from a reliability standpoint ... > ? The original DECtape was extremely reliable. Not so the TK50. Calling it "DECtape II" was an insult to the original DECtape. The problem wasn't so much the drive itself, but the controller. In an effort to reduce costs, DEC used a controller that had insufficient buffering capability for a streaming, block-replacement tape device such as the TK50. TK50s were prone to both data-late and overrun errors. The block size is almost certainly 512 bytes. -Paul W. From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Oct 16 13:19:39 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 11:19:39 -0700 Subject: Identifying TO-3 w/HP house numbering In-Reply-To: <5E76B289-97BF-4194-83DF-004A051CFF22@gmail.com> References: <408C8807-CA50-4C8C-8A41-0F112201535A@gmail.com> <5E76B289-97BF-4194-83DF-004A051CFF22@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks, all, for the responses! The way it measures out makes it look like it may be an MJ10006 or similar. I think it's probably ok. I poked around a bit more this morning and it's looking like part of the flyback is shorted out -- we have a 2382 at the museum and I popped it open just now and I verified that it measures differently (i.e "not shorted" :)) at the same points. So that's likely my problem. Drat. - Josh On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 3:34 AM David Collins wrote: > The 9816 uses a BUZ45 - might be the same as the 2382? > > David Collins > +61 424 785 131 > > > On 16 Oct 2018, at 3:24 pm, Curious Marc via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Forgot to mention, I have a 2382A that works (affectionately known as > the "Munchkin" terminal). I could measure some stuff in mine for comparison > if that could help out. > > For the HP curious, the 2382A makes an appearance at the end of one of > my videos: > > https://youtu.be/GLkhcDAOVPo?t=19m50 > > It is very cute (I think) ;-) > > Marc > > > >> On Oct 16, 2018, at 12:08 AM, Curious Marc > wrote: > >> > >> Can't find it either in any of the X-ref lists I have. As you know > already, 1854 are usually NPN transistors, but around these numbers I see > mostly Darlingtons in my collection. So maybe that's what you have, and why > the junctions would test weird. > >> Marc > >> > >>> On Oct 15, 2018, at 10:21 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >>> > >>> Hey all -- > >>> > >>> Got an HP 2382A terminal I'm attempting to resurrect. I get no video, > no > >>> heater, no high voltage. What I believe to be the horizontal output > >>> transistor appears to be bad, but I'm not sure if this thing contains > >>> internal diodes that might be throwing off my testing attempts. It's > >>> labeled "1854-0900." Anyone know what this actually is? (Anyone have > a > >>> service manual for this terminal?) > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> Josh > From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Oct 16 13:19:39 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 11:19:39 -0700 Subject: Identifying TO-3 w/HP house numbering In-Reply-To: <5E76B289-97BF-4194-83DF-004A051CFF22@gmail.com> References: <408C8807-CA50-4C8C-8A41-0F112201535A@gmail.com> <5E76B289-97BF-4194-83DF-004A051CFF22@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks, all, for the responses! The way it measures out makes it look like it may be an MJ10006 or similar. I think it's probably ok. I poked around a bit more this morning and it's looking like part of the flyback is shorted out -- we have a 2382 at the museum and I popped it open just now and I verified that it measures differently (i.e "not shorted" :)) at the same points. So that's likely my problem. Drat. - Josh On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 3:34 AM David Collins wrote: > The 9816 uses a BUZ45 - might be the same as the 2382? > > David Collins > +61 424 785 131 > > > On 16 Oct 2018, at 3:24 pm, Curious Marc via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Forgot to mention, I have a 2382A that works (affectionately known as > the "Munchkin" terminal). I could measure some stuff in mine for comparison > if that could help out. > > For the HP curious, the 2382A makes an appearance at the end of one of > my videos: > > https://youtu.be/GLkhcDAOVPo?t=19m50 > > It is very cute (I think) ;-) > > Marc > > > >> On Oct 16, 2018, at 12:08 AM, Curious Marc > wrote: > >> > >> Can't find it either in any of the X-ref lists I have. As you know > already, 1854 are usually NPN transistors, but around these numbers I see > mostly Darlingtons in my collection. So maybe that's what you have, and why > the junctions would test weird. > >> Marc > >> > >>> On Oct 15, 2018, at 10:21 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >>> > >>> Hey all -- > >>> > >>> Got an HP 2382A terminal I'm attempting to resurrect. I get no video, > no > >>> heater, no high voltage. What I believe to be the horizontal output > >>> transistor appears to be bad, but I'm not sure if this thing contains > >>> internal diodes that might be throwing off my testing attempts. It's > >>> labeled "1854-0900." Anyone know what this actually is? (Anyone have > a > >>> service manual for this terminal?) > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> Josh > From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Oct 16 13:37:04 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 14:37:04 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Ultrix Tape: Block Size? In-Reply-To: <4f20854e-6269-47aa-aeaf-9e2b93aa1201.maildroid@localhost> References: <20181015195622.GB25749@minnie.tuhs.org> <4f20854e-6269-47aa-aeaf-9e2b93aa1201.maildroid@localhost> Message-ID: <2658AACC-A451-4861-8CD8-F7E4BED8062A@comcast.net> > On Oct 16, 2018, at 1:23 PM, William Pechter via cctalk wrote: > > DEC Tape II was the serial driven TU58. > The TK50 was CompacTape or something like that. It was the predecessor of a number of square tapes... > > See DLT on Wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Linear_Tape > > Bill > > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Winalski > To: Clem Cole > Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society , cctalk at classiccmp.org > Sent: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 13:14 > Subject: Re: [TUHS] Ultrix Tape: Block Size? > > On 10/15/18, Clem Cole wrote: >> #$%^ - they >>weren't<< like DECtape from a reliability standpoint ... >> ? > The original DECtape was extremely reliable. Not so the TK50. > Calling it "DECtape II" was an insult to the original DECtape. The > problem wasn't so much the drive itself, but the controller. In an > effort to reduce costs, DEC used a controller that had insufficient > buffering capability for a streaming, block-replacement tape device > such as the TK50. TK50s were prone to both data-late and overrun > errors. DLT is something entirely different from "DECtape II" -- that is a little rubber band driven cartridge, extremely slow and extremely lousy. DLT is fast, 1/2 inch tape, serpentine recording. It's the direct ancestor of a whole series of cartridge tapes of ever increasing capacity. I used DLT on RSTS systems, with a Qbus interface. Those were modest speed hosts and buses, but I never remember data late or overrun issues, and we drove those tapes quite hard in full time streaming mode for backup and software distribution. Longer blocks, too (2k or so) which would make any buffering issues more severe. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 16 14:59:11 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 14:59:11 -0500 Subject: [TUHS] Ultrix Tape: Block Size? In-Reply-To: <2658AACC-A451-4861-8CD8-F7E4BED8062A@comcast.net> References: <20181015195622.GB25749@minnie.tuhs.org> <4f20854e-6269-47aa-aeaf-9e2b93aa1201.maildroid@localhost> <2658AACC-A451-4861-8CD8-F7E4BED8062A@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 1:49 PM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > On Oct 16, 2018, at 1:23 PM, William Pechter via cctalk wrote: > > > > DEC Tape II was the serial driven TU58. > > The TK50 was CompacTape or something like that. It was the predecessor of a number of square tapes... > > > > See DLT on Wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Linear_Tape > > DLT is something entirely different from "DECtape II"... DLT is fast, 1/2 inch tape, serpentine recording. It's the direct ancestor of a whole series of cartridge tapes of ever increasing capacity. Yes. There's DECtape (TU55/TU56), there's DECtape II (TU58), and there's "CompacTape" (TK50/TK70) which developed into DLT III and so on to LTO, etc. The carts for original CompacTape and DLT are the same size. The drives are not of identical reliability. TK50 drives jammed and had a variety of physical problems. Even when they were working, their performance was affected by the systems they were attached to. In particular, they are a streaming technology from an era when low-end systems couldn't feed them fast enough to keep streaming, so in the case of the TK50, capacity was always listed as "up to 95MB per tape" because on writes, if there wasn't data in the buffer, the tape wouldn't just stop but you'd get a gap until there was enough data, so your capacity was lower. For reads, it would have to back up a long ways, spin back up to speed and begin reading where it left off, substantially slowing down read performance. By the time DLT III came out, machines were faster and, AFAIK, the hardware buffering was better so you didn't have the same problems. Having cut a few hundred DLT III tapes 15 years ago, I found the tape drives to be absolutely solid. Over the next 10 years we had an every-other-year upgrade/migration because our capacity needs grew rapidly and the cost per drive stayed about the same. I think they were on LTO2 when I left, in a 200 tape/4 drive jukebox. The short version of this is: TK50s were a PITA then, and they still are. -ethan From guykd at optusnet.com.au Tue Oct 16 15:24:51 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 07:24:51 +1100 Subject: Documation TM200 card reader - pinch roller restoration In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20181016204820.00dc6b38@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20181017072451.00dff970@mail.optusnet.com.au> Update: I've received good clear photos of the roller pairs, from which I can work out a sufficiently accurate diameter for the pinch roller. Thanks David and Ed. My guess of 27.5 WAS quite a bit off. Preliminary working from the photo gives a roller Dia of 27.2 mm, ie only just touching. But that was done late at night, and from only one measurement. I'll post a more detailed result later today. Guy From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Oct 16 18:21:34 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 19:21:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Documation TM200 card reader - pinch roller restoration Message-ID: <20181016232134.E5FA118C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Guy Dunphy > The mechanics has no adjustment or spring tension on the pinch roller > positions. ... all the spring is in the rubber of the rollers. > But how much squish? > ... > I'm hoping someone might have some knowledge of how much punch card > reader pinch rollers should press against capstans. Does 0.2mm squish > seem right To produce a given force on the card, the dimensional amount of squish needed would depend on the rigidity of the material, no? A stiff material would need/want less than something soft, I would think. Noel From guykd at optusnet.com.au Tue Oct 16 20:54:00 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 12:54:00 +1100 Subject: Documation TM200 card reader - pinch roller restoration In-Reply-To: <20181016232134.E5FA118C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20181017125400.01077820@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 07:21 PM 16/10/2018 -0400, you wrote: > > From: Guy Dunphy > > > The mechanics has no adjustment or spring tension on the pinch roller > > positions. ... all the spring is in the rubber of the rollers. > > But how much squish? > > ... > > I'm hoping someone might have some knowledge of how much punch card > > reader pinch rollers should press against capstans. Does 0.2mm squish > > seem right > >To produce a given force on the card, the dimensional amount of squish needed >would depend on the rigidity of the material, no? A stiff material would >need/want less than something soft, I would think. Yes absolutely! This is why I chose a casting silicone product with (supposedly) a duro of 60 Shore A. Which is close to car tire rubber (60 to 70.) Since the original rollers were rubber, I'd assumed they probably used some standard grade of rubber and were fairly stiff too. It's also why the mold structure I'm making will hopefully allow repeated attempts using different materials if first try doesn't work. Later today I'll post the photo of the rollers, with dimensions derivation. It implies the original rollers are fairly stiff material. Guy From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Oct 16 22:39:06 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 20:39:06 -0700 Subject: Identifying TO-3 w/HP house numbering In-Reply-To: References: <408C8807-CA50-4C8C-8A41-0F112201535A@gmail.com> <5E76B289-97BF-4194-83DF-004A051CFF22@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 11:19 AM Josh Dersch wrote: > Thanks, all, for the responses! The way it measures out makes it look > like it may be an MJ10006 or similar. I think it's probably ok. > > I poked around a bit more this morning and it's looking like part of the > flyback is shorted out -- we have a 2382 at the museum and I popped it open > just now and I verified that it measures differently (i.e "not shorted" :)) > at the same points. So that's likely my problem. Drat. > > - Josh > And I was wrong -- the flyback's fine (yay!). Found a nearby 0.015uF, 400V film capacitor that was shorted. Replaced it and now I have video! It's a bit dim, it's too wide, and gets wider as it warms up but it's a start :). Thanks again, Josh From david4602 at gmail.com Tue Oct 16 06:28:18 2018 From: david4602 at gmail.com (David Schmidt) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 07:28:18 -0400 Subject: Wanted: tech docs on original Iomega 8-inch full height 10MB Bernoulli drive (Alpha-10) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/15/18 1:00 PM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > From: Michael Brutman > > Hi Eric, > > I have working 10MB and 20MB units here being driven by a PC XT with the > Iomega specific card for them. > > I've had to puts lots of effort into cleaning the heads on them. I'm not > sure if there is an oxide shedding problem or just 30 years of dust that > I'm fighting, but they do seem to be very finicky at this stage. It also > could be a media formatting problem; I think they have servo tracks that > were laid down at manufacturing time, so if you have a read error on the > servo track there is no way to fix it. > > > Mike I've got a collection of 1/2 height 8" drives, and one among them (a 20 MB unit) is able to come online with a cartridge inserted. Maybe head cleaning is what is troubling the others - but I have no idea how I'd jam a cotton swab in there and find the heads to attempt a cleaning. I have a Bernoulli card in a PC that will lift the bits from DOS-formatted cartridges, and I hook the drive up to an old Mac with a SCSI card in it to image other arbitrary types (I've seen them used as audio recording devices as well as external storage for HP equipment). - David From hagstrom at bu.edu Tue Oct 16 06:47:09 2018 From: hagstrom at bu.edu (Hagstrom, Paul) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 11:47:09 +0000 Subject: Wanted: tech docs on original Iomega 8-inch full height 10MB Bernoulli drive (Alpha-10) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1CADC114-31F8-4D3F-95E4-7C98B8550BFD@bu.edu> > On Oct 16, 2018, at 7:28 AM, David Schmidt via cctech wrote: > > On 10/15/18 1:00 PM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >> From: Michael Brutman >> Hi Eric, >> I have working 10MB and 20MB units here being driven by a PC XT with the >> Iomega specific card for them. >> I've had to puts lots of effort into cleaning the heads on them. I'm not [...] > > I've got a collection of 1/2 height 8" drives, and one among them (a 20 MB unit) is able to come online with a cartridge inserted. Maybe head cleaning is what is troubling the others - but I have no idea how I'd jam a cotton swab in there and find the heads to attempt a cleaning. Iomega made cleaning cartridges that had a pad you could soak in cleaning solution and then insert, and there was a lever that stays outside that you can pull back and forth. Otherwise, yes, I think it would be kind of an adventure to get at the heads. I have at least one of these cleaning cartridges, but I haven't attempted to use it yet. Probably should. Also sounds like I should prioritize imaging whatever cartridges I have soon. -Paul From paul.winalski at gmail.com Tue Oct 16 11:57:58 2018 From: paul.winalski at gmail.com (Paul Winalski) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 12:57:58 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Ultrix Tape: Block Size? In-Reply-To: References: <20181015195622.GB25749@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: On 10/15/18, Clem Cole wrote: > #$%^ - they >>weren't<< like DECtape from a reliability standpoint ... > ? The original DECtape was extremely reliable. Not so the TK50. Calling it "DECtape II" was an insult to the original DECtape. The problem wasn't so much the drive itself, but the controller. In an effort to reduce costs, DEC used a controller that had insufficient buffering capability for a streaming, block-replacement tape device such as the TK50. TK50s were prone to both data-late and overrun errors. The block size is almost certainly 512 bytes. -Paul W. From clemc at ccc.com Tue Oct 16 12:24:12 2018 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 13:24:12 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Ultrix Tape: Block Size? In-Reply-To: References: <20181015195622.GB25749@minnie.tuhs.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 12:57 PM Paul Winalski wrote: > The block size is almost certainly 512 bytes. > Which is what I said - the block siize is set by the HW. But ... the issue is trying to get the TK-50 to stream. Hence the traditional unix: dd ibs=64K obs=XXX | tar xvfp - trick. This will tell the driver to read upto 128 blocks in one DMA and then pump the bits into tar a 'XXX block' at a time (which is is usually 20b for tar/cpio/dump et al and Ultrix obey's). ? From clemc at ccc.com Tue Oct 16 12:34:08 2018 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 13:34:08 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Ultrix Tape: Block Size? In-Reply-To: <4f20854e-6269-47aa-aeaf-9e2b93aa1201.maildroid@localhost> References: <20181015195622.GB25749@minnie.tuhs.org> <4f20854e-6269-47aa-aeaf-9e2b93aa1201.maildroid@localhost> Message-ID: But Paul's comment is still right on - the controller for both was a 1MHz i8085 and just could not keep up. I hated both .. its' too bad DEC refused to use QIC. They did eventually use 4mm DAT on an SCSI (and actually OEM'ed the drive from HP it turns out). The 8mm [Exabyte Unit] was from CSS and many of us in UNIX land had them on our Alpha's - Tru64 supports as a 'latent' device - but the politics of the day were TK-50 and TK-70 was the DEC official drive. It's interesting until DEC sold off the team and DLT to Quantum, it was not very popular except at VMS sites since the Unix world knew that the SCSI driver had full support for the standard devices. To Quantum credit, they redid the controller (put in a 68K IIRC) and life got much better. But it was always way more expensive than QIC, 4 or 8 mm. Clem ? On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 1:23 PM William Pechter wrote: > DEC Tape II was the serial driven TU58. > The TK50 was CompacTape or something like that. It was the predecessor of > a number of square tapes... > > See DLT on Wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Linear_Tape > > Bill > > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Winalski > To: Clem Cole > Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society , cctalk at classiccmp.org > Sent: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 13:14 > Subject: Re: [TUHS] Ultrix Tape: Block Size? > > On 10/15/18, Clem Cole wrote: > > #$%^ - they >>weren't<< like DECtape from a reliability standpoint ... > > ? > The original DECtape was extremely reliable. Not so the TK50. > Calling it "DECtape II" was an insult to the original DECtape. The > problem wasn't so much the drive itself, but the controller. In an > effort to reduce costs, DEC used a controller that had insufficient > buffering capability for a streaming, block-replacement tape device > such as the TK50. TK50s were prone to both data-late and overrun > errors. > > The block size is almost certainly 512 bytes. > > -Paul W. > From paul.winalski at gmail.com Tue Oct 16 12:34:40 2018 From: paul.winalski at gmail.com (Paul Winalski) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 13:34:40 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Ultrix Tape: Block Size? In-Reply-To: <4f20854e-6269-47aa-aeaf-9e2b93aa1201.maildroid@localhost> References: <20181015195622.GB25749@minnie.tuhs.org> <4f20854e-6269-47aa-aeaf-9e2b93aa1201.maildroid@localhost> Message-ID: On 10/16/18, William Pechter wrote: > DEC Tape II was the serial driven TU58. > The TK50 was CompacTape or something like that. It was the predecessor of a > number of square tapes... > > See DLT on Wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Linear_Tape > My mistake. Yes, I was thinking of the TU58, a most miserable device. -Paul W. From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Oct 17 01:14:20 2018 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 08:14:20 +0200 Subject: TK50, was: Re: [TUHS] Ultrix Tape: Block Size? In-Reply-To: <2658AACC-A451-4861-8CD8-F7E4BED8062A@comcast.net> References: <20181015195622.GB25749@minnie.tuhs.org> <4f20854e-6269-47aa-aeaf-9e2b93aa1201.maildroid@localhost> <2658AACC-A451-4861-8CD8-F7E4BED8062A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4e0053ba-94d0-e5b3-7f1a-21c1f5b70861@e-bbes.com> On 2018-10-16 20:37, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Oct 16, 2018, at 1:23 PM, William Pechter via cctalk wrote: >> >> DEC Tape II was the serial driven TU58. >> The TK50 was CompacTape or something like that. It was the predecessor of a number of square tapes... >> >> See DLT on Wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Linear_Tape >> >> Bill > I used DLT on RSTS systems, with a Qbus interface. Those were modest speed hosts and buses, but I never remember data late or overrun issues, and we drove those tapes quite hard in full time streaming mode for backup and software distribution. Longer blocks, too (2k or so) which would make any buffering issues more severe. Just few words here, as I'm not sure anymore we are talking about the same thing ... there were TK50Z as an external drive, on "SCSI" TZ30 internal drive, on "SCSI", using TK50 tapes TK50 on QBUS with an TQK50 controller which really didn't stream to often TK50 on QBUS with an TQK70 controller, which doubled the memory of the TQK50, which was capable of streaming ... From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Wed Oct 17 09:49:51 2018 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 15:49:51 +0100 Subject: Identifying TO-3 w/HP house numbering In-Reply-To: References: <408C8807-CA50-4C8C-8A41-0F112201535A@gmail.com> <5E76B289-97BF-4194-83DF-004A051CFF22@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 9:33 AM Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > And I was wrong -- the flyback's fine (yay!). Found a nearby 0.015uF, 400V > film capacitor that was shorted. Replaced it and now I have video! It's a > bit dim, it's too wide, and gets wider as it warms up but it's a start :). That suggests to me that what we call the 'EHT' over here -- the 12kV-15kV on the final anode of the CRT -- is low and is sagging under load. Low EHT will cause a dim picture, it will also cause the electron beam to be less 'stiff' (as the electrons are not moving as fast) so the deflection coils have a greater effect and the picture is larger. Possibly more capacitor trouble in the flyback area. -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 17 09:50:02 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 09:50:02 -0500 Subject: TK50, was: Re: [TUHS] Ultrix Tape: Block Size? In-Reply-To: <4e0053ba-94d0-e5b3-7f1a-21c1f5b70861@e-bbes.com> References: <20181015195622.GB25749@minnie.tuhs.org> <4f20854e-6269-47aa-aeaf-9e2b93aa1201.maildroid@localhost> <2658AACC-A451-4861-8CD8-F7E4BED8062A@comcast.net> <4e0053ba-94d0-e5b3-7f1a-21c1f5b70861@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 8:15 AM emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > there were > TK50Z as an external drive, on "SCSI" I have one - for a MicroVAX 2000. I rarely used it. > TK50 on QBUS with an TQK50 controller which really didn't stream to often We had one in the 1980s. You are right. It didn't. > TK50 on QBUS with an TQK70 controller, which doubled the memory of the > TQK50, which was capable of streaming ... Ooh! That works? I might have to nab a TQK70 for that MicroVAX II I have (the one we had at work in the 1980s. I got it when the company folded). Mostly, really just need to image any tapes I have more than write new tapes, presuming the media hasn't degraded too much in the past 30 years. -ethan From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Oct 17 09:58:17 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 10:58:17 -0400 Subject: TK50, was: Re: [TUHS] Ultrix Tape: Block Size? In-Reply-To: References: <20181015195622.GB25749@minnie.tuhs.org> <4f20854e-6269-47aa-aeaf-9e2b93aa1201.maildroid@localhost> <2658AACC-A451-4861-8CD8-F7E4BED8062A@comcast.net> <4e0053ba-94d0-e5b3-7f1a-21c1f5b70861@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <71B10EF0-0ACE-42DA-824A-85CF580A1AB1@comcast.net> > On Oct 17, 2018, at 10:50 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 8:15 AM emanuel stiebler via cctalk > wrote: >> there were >> TK50Z as an external drive, on "SCSI" > > I have one - for a MicroVAX 2000. I rarely used it. > >> TK50 on QBUS with an TQK50 controller which really didn't stream to often > > We had one in the 1980s. You are right. It didn't. I wonder if that was a VAX-specific issue. It streamed fine on J-11 based PDP11 systems running RSTS. While most VAXen have faster CPUs than PDP-11s, that doesn't necessarily carry over to I/O. paul From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Oct 17 10:21:15 2018 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 10:21:15 -0500 Subject: OTsorta : Old phone system(s) avail Message-ID: <002d01d4662d$0c01c0f0$240542d0$@classiccmp.org> I know some of our members are into phones... I am tossing the following in a skip to go to a recycler. I'd rather not ship the units, but am willing to pull any boards if someone needs them. Toshiba Strata DX Toshiba CIX200 Toshiba CIX40 The will be sent off to recycler Monday or Tuesday. J From ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org Wed Oct 17 10:54:04 2018 From: ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org (Andrew Luke Nesbit) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 16:54:04 +0100 Subject: OTsorta : Old phone system(s) avail In-Reply-To: <002d01d4662d$0c01c0f0$240542d0$@classiccmp.org> References: <002d01d4662d$0c01c0f0$240542d0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Hi Jay, On 17/10/2018 16:21, Jay West via cctalk wrote: > I know some of our members are into phones... I have an idea for a project to reduce my dependency on my phone. I'm trying to move to a model where voice, voicemail, and SMS are all that I need when I'm on the go. SMS would be used as an interface to control various simple Internet-like functionalities. > I am tossing the following in a skip to go to a recycler. I'd rather not > ship the units, but am willing to pull any boards if someone needs them. > > > > Toshiba Strata DX > > Toshiba CIX200 > > Toshiba CIX40 I'm still looking into whether these devices will help me. I'm at the point of figuring out what the unknown unknowns are, as I'm new to telephony. Where are you located? I am in London, UK. I'm aware that due to the likelihood of shipping there's a good chance this won't work out. Kind regards, Andrew -- OpenPGP key: EB28 0338 28B7 19DA DAB0 B193 D21D 996E 883B E5B9 From ethan at 757.org Wed Oct 17 10:57:15 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 11:57:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OTsorta : Old phone system(s) avail In-Reply-To: References: <002d01d4662d$0c01c0f0$240542d0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > I'm still looking into whether these devices will help me. I'm at the > point of figuring out what the unknown unknowns are, as I'm new to > telephony. > Where are you located? I am in London, UK. I'm aware that due to the > likelihood of shipping there's a good chance this won't work out. > It's an older office phone system. Boxes that run a bunch of office phones. Not a mobile phone. Anyone know of an ESS-5A that needs a home? I really would like to bring one to HOPE in NYC one year. - Ethan From ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org Wed Oct 17 11:04:38 2018 From: ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org (Andrew Luke Nesbit) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 17:04:38 +0100 Subject: OTsorta : Old phone system(s) avail In-Reply-To: References: <002d01d4662d$0c01c0f0$240542d0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <050c5b0b-fb11-e258-364c-1701c29ec003@andrewnesbit.org> On 17/10/2018 16:57, ethan at 757.org wrote: > It's an older office phone system. Boxes that run a bunch of office > phones. Not a mobile phone. I'm not looking for a mobile phone. I'm looking for server-side telephony hardware and services to implement an "SMS-based API" so that I can perform various operations by using simple commands over SMS. Andrew -- OpenPGP key: EB28 0338 28B7 19DA DAB0 B193 D21D 996E 883B E5B9 From lproven at gmail.com Wed Oct 17 11:07:04 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 18:07:04 +0200 Subject: OTsorta : Old phone system(s) avail In-Reply-To: References: <002d01d4662d$0c01c0f0$240542d0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 at 17:54, Andrew Luke Nesbit via cctalk wrote: > > I have an idea for a project to reduce my dependency on my phone. I'm > trying to move to a model where voice, voicemail, and SMS are all that I > need when I'm on the go. There are plenty of such devices around. Some are trendy retro things: https://www.techradar.com/reviews/new-nokia-3310-2017-review https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/aug/16/nokia-8110-4g-review-nostalgia-the-matrix-banana-phone If you don't want something "retro" then there are still candy-bar feature-phones: https://www.techadvisor.co.uk/feature/mobile-phone/best-basic-phones-of-2018-3641218/ Here are some international models: https://www.lifewire.com/basic-cell-phones-577534 -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 17 11:30:26 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 09:30:26 -0700 Subject: ISO IBM 3708 documentation Message-ID: Does anyone have copies of the planning (GA27-3609) or configuration (GA27-3726) documents for the 3708 protocol converter? From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Oct 17 11:39:30 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 10:39:30 -0600 Subject: OTsorta : Old phone system(s) avail In-Reply-To: <050c5b0b-fb11-e258-364c-1701c29ec003@andrewnesbit.org> References: <002d01d4662d$0c01c0f0$240542d0$@classiccmp.org> <050c5b0b-fb11-e258-364c-1701c29ec003@andrewnesbit.org> Message-ID: On 10/17/2018 10:04 AM, Andrew Luke Nesbit via cctalk wrote: > I'm looking for server-side telephony hardware and services to implement > an "SMS-based API" so that I can perform various operations by using > simple commands over SMS. Remember that it is possible to spoof or hijack SMS / phone numbers. So don't rely on just that for security. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From tih at hamartun.priv.no Wed Oct 17 07:57:38 2018 From: tih at hamartun.priv.no (Tom Ivar Helbekkmo) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 14:57:38 +0200 Subject: TK50, was: Re: Ultrix Tape: Block Size? In-Reply-To: <4e0053ba-94d0-e5b3-7f1a-21c1f5b70861@e-bbes.com> (emanuel stiebler's message of "Wed, 17 Oct 2018 08:14:20 +0200") References: <20181015195622.GB25749@minnie.tuhs.org> <4f20854e-6269-47aa-aeaf-9e2b93aa1201.maildroid@localhost> <2658AACC-A451-4861-8CD8-F7E4BED8062A@comcast.net> <4e0053ba-94d0-e5b3-7f1a-21c1f5b70861@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: emanuel stiebler writes: > TK50 on QBUS with an TQK50 controller which really didn't stream to often > TK50 on QBUS with an TQK70 controller, which doubled the memory of the > TQK50, which was capable of streaming ... Now *that* I wasn't aware of! Thanks! I'll have to open up my PDP-11/83 tonight. Its TK50 will stream while writing, as long as what's being written can be read reasonably fast from (RQDX3/RD54) disk. The TQK controller is sitting right up at the top end of the Q-bus, to get high priority -- but I don't know if it's a TQK70. I've really just assumed it's a TQK50 without thinking too much about it... -tih -- Most people who graduate with CS degrees don't understand the significance of Lisp. Lisp is the most important idea in computer science. --Alan Kay From clemc at ccc.com Wed Oct 17 10:18:07 2018 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 11:18:07 -0400 Subject: TK50, was: Re: [TUHS] Ultrix Tape: Block Size? In-Reply-To: <4e0053ba-94d0-e5b3-7f1a-21c1f5b70861@e-bbes.com> References: <20181015195622.GB25749@minnie.tuhs.org> <4f20854e-6269-47aa-aeaf-9e2b93aa1201.maildroid@localhost> <2658AACC-A451-4861-8CD8-F7E4BED8062A@comcast.net> <4e0053ba-94d0-e5b3-7f1a-21c1f5b70861@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: I took most of this off line, but I'll try to close down the discussion, so we can get back to TUHS history. Please be careful of your wording as it is easy to get confused particularly if you never used the original 1/2" tape system you might not understand the actual terms. The term for reading Read and Write I/O Sizes in a user program are different than tape block sizes (or as they were originally referred LRECL - Logical Record Length). As I said to Paul K, I sadly know way more about the minutia of tapes that I really should admit [I broke in during the 60s using 7-track tapes on the IBM Mainframes which really date me and I remember the 5-track tapes on one of the systems, but I never personally used it]. On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 2:14 AM emanuel stiebler wrote: > Longer blocks, too (2k or so) which would make any buffering issues more > severe. > *Your user program read/wrote with 2K or more using DMA reads or writes but it wrote 512 byte 'blocks.'* As Paul W pointed out correctly, the TK50 and its children in the DLT* family all used a fixed format 512 byte *blocks on the tape*. This cannot be changed. The tape format is handled by the tape controller microcode and all of the blocks on all the streamers (DLT, 1/4, 1/2", 4mm and 8mm) that I know about were fixed at 512 byte, although the OS could write multiple (N) blocks at a time to the tape controller which will will write as N blocks on the tape. This was different from 1/2" parallel 7 and 9-track tape which was actually had variable size 'blocks' in the writes and the tape format. Since the terminalogy was defined (by IBM) for 5/7/9 track drives, we still use that terminology. The trick is that streamer** format write* (which is bit seral): <512 bytes of serial data [blk1]><512 bytes of serial data[blk2]>.....<512 bytes of serial data>[blkn] The key is that there are no inter-record gaps (IRG) between the and < frames when recording on a streamer. BTW: they usually use a serpitine scheme - starting with the center of the tape and moving outwards in a circular pattern - IIRC down on tape end and up on tape start -- but that's fuzzy in my memory and I'm at work so I can not look in any of the controller books have at home. If you lose the bit stream on input (data under run), the tape controller backs up the tape and when it starts to write again, it goes over the last block trailer and start its new write at the end of it. For instance the original 1/4" QIC format wrote 4 passes, then later when the recording head got better, it wrote 9 passes and then even more, but in the newer formats (and withe better media) the head was smaller. Also remember that EOT is handled different in the streamer formats from 1/2" 7/9 track and IIRC EOT can even differ between the different streamer formats. If you look at 1/2" parallel 7/9-track (which is where the terms and basic concepts originate) 9-track has a 'inter-record gap' between the last block's trailer and the next block's header. When IBM originally defined that 7 and 9 track formats (whch ANSI later codified), these gaps are defined so that the there is time to start and stop the motors (somewhere, I have a very old IBM document from the late 60s that describes this very well using IBM terms like LRECL and DASD - direct access storage device ;-) The key difference from a streamer tape is that the IBM LRECL or logicial record size, could (and did) vary ***. But to try to keep the amount of wasted space (*i.e.* least amount of inter-record gaps), different programs use different 'block size' and some formats (like ANSI labeled tapes) the block size (LRECL) can vary within the tape itself. Also, I don't think I ever knew why, but for some reason IBM's tape utilites tended to like LRECL 10240 and 20480. Since many of us UNIX folks came from IBM and Multics, we also used the same sizes (*i.e.* 20b or 10240 8 bit bytes) - it was reasonably efficent (we got 150M per traditional 2400" 1/2 tape at 6250 BPI - you could get 1/3 more space when 3M created a 3600" that fit in the original 1/2" reel) . Thus the on-tape format of 1/2" (which is parallel encoding and one pass over the tape): ...... [if the last last 'file' on the tape a second] Note: LRECL BYTES of BLK1 did not have to be the same as much less Thus concept (and term) of 'tape blocks' was born. Also note be careful the term 'file' has specific meaning to a tape. DEC started to use the term 'save set' to disamiguated it BTW. A tape 'file' N tape blocks, followed by an a EOT mark. Thus, two adjacent tape marks actually delinated end of recorded data in the tape. Thus in 7/9 track formats when a new file is written the last is backed up over and data frame writing starts over writing the second after the last So ... what this all means is that from the OS side, you start a DMA on X blocks and then let the tape controller read or write it. No matter the number of blocks you write on a streamer, it will always write it as 512 byte blocks (similar to how a disk works when set up in 'fixed' formatting). One more thing to be careful about... people also talk about 'ANSI tape' format. This usually refered to the *SW format of the data blocks on the tape*. UNIX's native tape formats were tp/stp, tar, cpio and dump. VMS uses the ANSI tape format as its native format under the covers (and if IIRC, so does RT11) for how to write and exchange data - which BTW, originally using those variable LRECL blocks on the tape. So the undustry first had a define a set if physical encoding for the tapes and these are also ANSI specs. But you need need to define how the data itself is written (which byte encoding ASCII vs EBCIDIC) and how to understand the 'files' on the tape itself (this is usually what is being tape about when people talk about 'ANSI tapes.' My old housemate at UCB (Tom Quarles, also known as the author of SPICE3) wrote the UNIX Ansitape program that went out with BSD (he wrote so we could exchnage tapes with the DEC CAD team which used VMS). Clem * Just to confuse you more, TK50 and the DLT family actually use a 1/2" media in the closed tape cartridge. But when DEC developed it (with 3M), there were also 3rd party 1/2" tape controllers that wrote bit serial (streamer) format on the traditonal 1/2" (9-track parallel) media. For instance the USAF/AWACS planes used to use a traditonal 3M 1/2" tape >>media<<, but those tapes can only be read on a special streamer drive [long story - I can make a couple of HW & SW guys shutter when I just say the word 'Grumman' ****]. ** One other thing to confuse the world is that 'streaming' was a trick performance trick that originated with 1/2" tape. You will see many 1/2" drives from the period such as ones from Cipher and Kenndy that took a parallel byte stream and wrote/read them - although they obey the 1/2" format rules on the tape itself. *** Another thing that was undefined in the ANSI tape specs and you can sometimes see, but certain HW will toss cookies and not read if you try it, it mix encoding within a tape (i.e. write 800 BPI, 1600 BPI or even 6250 BPI on the same tape). This was sometimes done on things like boot tapes because the pre-boot system might only know about 800 BPI tapes and it simplified the boot process particularly in the days when you had to toggle in the boot (or in IBM terms -- IPL -- initial program load -- code). **** An airman on the AWAC used to spent his entire time on the flight keeping the 3 drives loaded - it the time it took to write one tape, another is being rewound and the airman put a new tape on the 3rd - making that all work at full speed with no data loss was 'interesting' From technoid6502 at gmail.com Wed Oct 17 12:51:42 2018 From: technoid6502 at gmail.com (Jeffrey S. Worley) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 13:51:42 -0400 Subject: Working with Old Tapes Message-ID: Probably preaching to the choir, but if you are going to be mounting an old tape, there are some issues to be aware of. Tape is really stable over time and your data is likely still there. As tapes age, the surface of the gluey oxide coating degrades. The symptoms will be very discernable with a nine-track drive as you can see the head/tape interface easily. The surface of the tape in contact with the drive's head will ablate, leaving gunk on the head. The tape will make a squeaking noise while running and may eventually stop moving due to sticktion at the head. Cleaning the head from time to time may get you through a read of a tape for backup purposes, but there is a machine called a 'tape cleaner' which is a drive which leads the tape through a path seeded with knife-edges. As the tape travels through the machine, the knife edges scrape a layer of oxide coating from the tape and smooths and polishes the surface exposed. This will restore a tape to full usability and should not affect data stored on the tape. Pinch rollers can also collect oxide and need cleaning. Pinch rollers on old drives may be so degraded as to make the drive unusable. I had a Data General cart drive using Qic 300? tapes. The drive roller was wrecked. I found in my junkpile a roller from an Epson Actionprinter 3250, removed it from the printer's output roller and after cleaning the drive axle in the qic drive, used some windex to lubricate a ballpoint pen barrel, stretched the roller onto the pen body, held the body to the face of the drive axel and pushed the roller on. It worked beautifully from then on. Stone knives and bearskins. You can carefully make a set of knife edges on a board, thread the tape through the edges, and use the drive you have to move the tape through your homemade cleaner. Best, Jeff From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Wed Oct 17 12:56:21 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 10:56:21 -0700 Subject: Identifying TO-3 w/HP house numbering In-Reply-To: References: <408C8807-CA50-4C8C-8A41-0F112201535A@gmail.com> <5E76B289-97BF-4194-83DF-004A051CFF22@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4FE86B75-726A-494A-A490-86097309236C@gmail.com> Yay! Congrats Josh! Marc > On Oct 16, 2018, at 8:39 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > >> On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 11:19 AM Josh Dersch wrote: >> >> Thanks, all, for the responses! The way it measures out makes it look >> like it may be an MJ10006 or similar. I think it's probably ok. >> >> I poked around a bit more this morning and it's looking like part of the >> flyback is shorted out -- we have a 2382 at the museum and I popped it open >> just now and I verified that it measures differently (i.e "not shorted" :)) >> at the same points. So that's likely my problem. Drat. >> >> - Josh >> > > And I was wrong -- the flyback's fine (yay!). Found a nearby 0.015uF, 400V > film capacitor that was shorted. Replaced it and now I have video! It's a > bit dim, it's too wide, and gets wider as it warms up but it's a start :). > > Thanks again, > Josh From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 17 13:05:21 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 11:05:21 -0700 Subject: Working with Old Tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9baa0104-1130-c784-d230-635129aad8be@bitsavers.org> On 10/17/18 10:51 AM, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote: > Cleaning the head from time to time may get you through a read of a > tape for backup purposes, but there is a machine called a 'tape > cleaner' which is a drive which leads the tape through a path seeded > with knife-edges. As the tape travels through the machine, the knife > edges scrape a layer of oxide coating from the tape and smooths and > polishes the surface exposed. This will restore a tape to full > usability and should not affect data stored on the tape. > "Tape Scrapers" do exactly that. Bake the tapes first, preferably with a lot of moving air before attempting to "clean" a tape. If you don't all you will do is scrape off the binder. Their original purpose was to remove surface debris, NOT cut a layer of binder off. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Oct 17 13:10:01 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 14:10:01 -0400 Subject: Working with Old Tapes In-Reply-To: <9baa0104-1130-c784-d230-635129aad8be@bitsavers.org> References: <9baa0104-1130-c784-d230-635129aad8be@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4EC66E88-8F3E-49C3-8329-623E563ADE01@comcast.net> > On Oct 17, 2018, at 2:05 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 10/17/18 10:51 AM, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote: > >> Cleaning the head from time to time may get you through a read of a >> tape for backup purposes, but there is a machine called a 'tape >> cleaner' which is a drive which leads the tape through a path seeded >> with knife-edges. As the tape travels through the machine, the knife >> edges scrape a layer of oxide coating from the tape and smooths and >> polishes the surface exposed. This will restore a tape to full >> usability and should not affect data stored on the tape. >> > > "Tape Scrapers" do exactly that. Bake the tapes first, preferably with > a lot of moving air before attempting to "clean" a tape. If you don't > all you will do is scrape off the binder. > > Their original purpose was to remove surface debris, NOT cut a layer > of binder off. The 1/2 inch tape drives I'm familiar with incorporate such a device. Typically it's a ceramic thing, so it looks like a small shiny white rectangle near the heads. It has to be scrubbed clean periodically when it gets brown from accumulated ferrite dust. paul From ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org Wed Oct 17 13:24:33 2018 From: ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org (Andrew Luke Nesbit) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 19:24:33 +0100 Subject: OTsorta : Old phone system(s) avail In-Reply-To: References: <002d01d4662d$0c01c0f0$240542d0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Thanks Liam!! Please read on below... On 17/10/2018 17:07, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 17 Oct 2018 at 17:54, Andrew Luke Nesbit via cctalk > wrote: >> >> I have an idea for a project to reduce my dependency on my phone. I'm >> trying to move to a model where voice, voicemail, and SMS are all that I >> need when I'm on the go. > > There are plenty of such devices around. By "model" I meant something different so I think I may have confused some readers. But the answers I got have been very helpful anyway. > https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/aug/16/nokia-8110-4g-review-nostalgia-the-matrix-banana-phone >From the list you posted, the Nokia 8810 looks like my favourite so far. But the details of the review leave many things to be desired, especially the reported difficulty of texting. In fact, by "model", I meant a simple model of usage, i.e., voice and SMS to reduce dependence on the phone. If the phone breaks or is stolen, disruption to life is minimal. This also means that the phone is not used for 2FA (I believe using one's primary phone for 2FA is a terrible idea). Second, relatively advanced functionality can be implemented by sending SMS messages with simple commands and receiving a response to the phone in some appropriate format. The server-side service, which might use a service like Twilio, could do the heavy lifting. A navigation service would be a useful service if you find yourself in a pinch, for example. Third, access to WiFi and 4G are necessary for tethering, for when the user wants to do real computing on a GNU/Linux laptop. Andrew -- OpenPGP key: EB28 0338 28B7 19DA DAB0 B193 D21D 996E 883B E5B9 From dstalk at execulink.com Wed Oct 17 13:53:58 2018 From: dstalk at execulink.com (Don Stalkowski) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 14:53:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RT-11 DY install Message-ID: <20181017185358.66277BEE8CF@cel2.x> I'm trying to use a simulated RX02 disk (under simh) with RT-11 and can't seem to get the DY driver to install. Here's the relevant log: sim> set ry enabled sim> att ry0 ry0.dsk RY: creating new file RY: buffering file in memory sim> c .install dy ?KMON-F-Invalid device installation DL0:DY.SYS .dir dy.sys DY .SYS 4P 20-Dec-85 1 Files, 4 Blocks 14841 Free blocks I've tried with 2 different software "kits", the one from the simh site and the one from bitsavers. Any ideas? Thanks, Don From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 17 14:22:50 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 12:22:50 -0700 Subject: Working with Old Tapes In-Reply-To: <4EC66E88-8F3E-49C3-8329-623E563ADE01@comcast.net> References: <9baa0104-1130-c784-d230-635129aad8be@bitsavers.org> <4EC66E88-8F3E-49C3-8329-623E563ADE01@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4a071287-9eca-018a-3354-c2bb4673a8a9@sydex.com> On 10/17/18 11:10 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > The 1/2 inch tape drives I'm familiar with incorporate such a device. > Typically it's a ceramic thing, so it looks like a small shiny white > rectangle near the heads. It has to be scrubbed clean periodically > when it gets brown from accumulated ferrite dust. Certainly mine do--some drives use a single ceraminic "blade" and others use a sort of comb structure. My tape cleaner uses a tungsten carbide blade and a follow-up vacuum that picks up the debris. But even after baking, there are a few tapes that have issues where the binder has bled through to the surface. Such tapes will even stall when being drawn through the mechanism of a cleaning machine. I find that coating the tape with cylcomethicone allows the tape to pass freely. The lubricant evaporates without affecting the tape in a few minutes-half hour. I've used the same on floppy disks with good success. My application method is with a felt wick fed by a reservoir. FWIW, Chuck From ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org Wed Oct 17 14:32:40 2018 From: ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org (Andrew Luke Nesbit) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 20:32:40 +0100 Subject: OTsorta : Old phone system(s) avail In-Reply-To: References: <002d01d4662d$0c01c0f0$240542d0$@classiccmp.org> <050c5b0b-fb11-e258-364c-1701c29ec003@andrewnesbit.org> Message-ID: [Reposting because my previous reply to this message was set to the wrong From address.] On 17/10/2018 17:39, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Remember that it is possible to spoof or hijack SMS / phone numbers.? So > don't rely on just that for security. Good point. As far as I can tell, there's no way of securing communications with a purely SMS-based approach. Maybe voice fingerprinting and authentication for each request..? I can already smell feature creep. -- OpenPGP key: EB28 0338 28B7 19DA DAB0 B193 D21D 996E 883B E5B9 From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Oct 17 16:10:59 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 15:10:59 -0600 Subject: OTsorta : Old phone system(s) avail In-Reply-To: References: <002d01d4662d$0c01c0f0$240542d0$@classiccmp.org> <050c5b0b-fb11-e258-364c-1701c29ec003@andrewnesbit.org> Message-ID: On 10/17/2018 01:32 PM, Andrew Luke Nesbit via cctalk wrote: > [Reposting because my previous reply to this message was set to the > wrong From address.] I hate it when I do that. > Good point. As far as I can tell, there's no way of securing > communications with a purely SMS-based approach. I think you need additional factors in the SMS message to validate things. Each additional factor makes it harder to /successfully/ spoof control messages. Think something along the lines of a OTP. > Maybe voice fingerprinting and authentication for each request..? > I can already smell feature creep. Um, as far as I know, SMS doesn't carry anything other than a small amount of text. Maybe you're meaning MMS, which can carry voice and more text. I think that voice recognition might be more problematic. As in speech recognition. I would wonder about some sort of challenge response and / or SMS(MMS)-back system. You could also look at signing MMS messages (which can carry more data) with a standard PKI. That way it would be trivial to have the recipient validate things. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From andrew at canaldwellers.org Wed Oct 17 13:36:51 2018 From: andrew at canaldwellers.org (Andrew Luke Nesbit) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 19:36:51 +0100 Subject: OTsorta : Old phone system(s) avail In-Reply-To: References: <002d01d4662d$0c01c0f0$240542d0$@classiccmp.org> <050c5b0b-fb11-e258-364c-1701c29ec003@andrewnesbit.org> Message-ID: <8DEF8520-E460-4076-9917-F0C971E1EAA5@canaldwellers.org> > On 17 Oct 2018, at 17:39, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > Remember that it is possible to spoof or hijack SMS / phone numbers. So don't rely on just that for security. Good point. As far as I can tell, there's no way of securing communications with a purely SMS-based approach. Maybe voice fingerprinting and authentication for each request..? I can already smell feature creep. From w9gb at icloud.com Wed Oct 17 13:59:03 2018 From: w9gb at icloud.com (Gregory Beat) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 13:59:03 -0500 Subject: Identifying TO-3 w/HP house numbering Message-ID: <500C7184-0875-43B5-B75C-EEEE205B658E@icloud.com> Josh - You may want to contact Denis Kohlhagen, at Butler Winding. IF this is for the preservation of an HP terminal in the museum, they may wish to assist in rebuild/rewinding that flyback. There are US firms that can perform this work, and publicity of preserving history is desired by some corporate marketing dept. Butler Winding 7426A Tanner Parkway; Arcade, NY 14009 USA http://www.butlerwinding.com/ Phone: 1-716-532-2234 Fax: 1-716-523-2702 == ?I poked around a bit more this morning and it's looking like part of the flyback is shorted out -- we have a 2382 at the museum and I popped it open just now and I verified that it measures differently (i.e "not shorted" :)) at the same points. So that's likely my problem. Drat. - Josh? Sent from iPad Air From jsw at ieee.org Wed Oct 17 18:19:20 2018 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 18:19:20 -0500 Subject: RT-11 DY install In-Reply-To: <20181017185358.66277BEE8CF@cel2.x> References: <20181017185358.66277BEE8CF@cel2.x> Message-ID: <2f3a016c-fab5-7e7f-a9ce-719ab3ccfabe@ieee.org> On 10/17/18 1:53 PM, Don Stalkowski via cctalk wrote: > I'm trying to use a simulated RX02 disk (under simh) with RT-11 > and can't seem to get the DY driver to install. > > Here's the relevant log: > > sim> set ry enabled > sim> att ry0 ry0.dsk > RY: creating new file > RY: buffering file in memory > sim> c > > > .install dy > ?KMON-F-Invalid device installation DL0:DY.SYS > > .dir dy.sys > > DY .SYS 4P 20-Dec-85 > 1 Files, 4 Blocks > 14841 Free blocks > > I've tried with 2 different software "kits", the one from the simh site > and the one from bitsavers. > > Any ideas? > > Thanks, Don > Try set cpu 256K set rx disable set ry enable show ry RY??? address=17777170-17777173, vector=264, BR5, 2 units ? RY0??? 512KB, not attached, write enabled ??? double density ? RY1??? 512KB, not attached, write enabled ??? double density Note: Apparently the RY emulation won't load if more than 256K memory is specified as the DEC hardware did not support DMA in a 22bit box.?? I'm entirely not sure why SIMH has to enforce this as its possible to work around (e.g. TSX+ supports buffering the IO). Anyone know how to override and load in SIMH? Jerry From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Oct 17 19:30:20 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 00:30:20 +0000 Subject: RT-11 DY install In-Reply-To: <2f3a016c-fab5-7e7f-a9ce-719ab3ccfabe@ieee.org> References: <20181017185358.66277BEE8CF@cel2.x> <2f3a016c-fab5-7e7f-a9ce-719ab3ccfabe@ieee.org> Message-ID: On 10/17/2018 07:19 PM, Jerry Weiss via cctalk wrote: > On 10/17/18 1:53 PM, Don Stalkowski via cctalk wrote: >> I'm trying to use a simulated RX02 disk (under simh) with RT-11 >> and can't seem to get the DY driver to install. >> >> Here's the relevant log: >> >> sim> set ry enabled >> sim> att ry0 ry0.dsk >> RY: creating new file >> RY: buffering file in memory >> sim> c >> >> >> .install dy >> ?KMON-F-Invalid device installation DL0:DY.SYS >> >> .dir dy.sys >> >> DY??? .SYS???? 4P 20-Dec-85 >> ? 1 Files, 4 Blocks >> ? 14841 Free blocks >> >> I've tried with 2 different software "kits", the one from the simh site >> and the one from bitsavers. >> >> Any ideas? >> >> Thanks, Don >> > > Try > set cpu 256K > set rx disable > set ry enable > > show ry > RY??? address=17777170-17777173, vector=264, BR5, 2 units > ? RY0??? 512KB, not attached, write enabled > ??? double density > ? RY1??? 512KB, not attached, write enabled > ??? double density > > Note: Apparently the RY emulation won't load if more than 256K memory > is specified as the DEC hardware did not support DMA in a 22bit box.?? > I'm entirely not sure why SIMH has to enforce this as its possible to > work around (e.g. TSX+ supports buffering the IO). Anyone know how to > override and load in SIMH? If it didn't it wouldn't be emulating real PDP-11 hardware.? I have a number of RX02 systems and they do? not work with more than 256K. bill From guykd at optusnet.com.au Wed Oct 17 19:35:26 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 11:35:26 +1100 Subject: Documation TM200 card reader - pinch roller restoration Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20181018113526.00dc9358@mail.optusnet.com.au> A quick update. Thanks to those who sent pics of intact rollers. Derived from those the correct pinch roller diameter is 27.20 mm. Notes here: http://everist.org/NobLog/20180922_data_in_holes.htm#rub It seems there's a few people who need new M200 rollers. Once/if I perfect a successful method of making replacements I'll offer them for postage and a few dollars. But I'm in Australia. Or, there's this guy in the USA: http://www.terrysrubberrollers.com/ Now the correct OD is known he's an alternative, with real rubber. (Maybe my end result will be rubber too. That remains to be seen.) I still haven't found a service manual for the TM200 (with schematics.) Guy From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Thu Oct 18 01:22:37 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 23:22:37 -0700 Subject: Working with Old Tapes In-Reply-To: <4a071287-9eca-018a-3354-c2bb4673a8a9@sydex.com> References: <9baa0104-1130-c784-d230-635129aad8be@bitsavers.org> <4EC66E88-8F3E-49C3-8329-623E563ADE01@comcast.net> <4a071287-9eca-018a-3354-c2bb4673a8a9@sydex.com> Message-ID: <44F33B44-9839-47F4-B3EE-B5FC820F7BCA@gmail.com> > On Oct 17, 2018, at 12:22 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> On 10/17/18 11:10 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> >> The 1/2 inch tape drives I'm familiar with incorporate such a device. >> Typically it's a ceramic thing, so it looks like a small shiny white >> rectangle near the heads. It has to be scrubbed clean periodically >> when it gets brown from accumulated ferrite dust. > > Certainly mine do--some drives use a single ceraminic "blade" and others > use a sort of comb structure. > > My tape cleaner uses a tungsten carbide blade and a follow-up vacuum > that picks up the debris. > > But even after baking, there are a few tapes that have issues where the > binder has bled through to the surface. Such tapes will even stall when > being drawn through the mechanism of a cleaning machine. > > I find that coating the tape with cylcomethicone allows the tape to pass > freely. The lubricant evaporates without affecting the tape in a few > minutes-half hour. I've used the same on floppy disks with good success. > > My application method is with a felt wick fed by a reservoir. > > > FWIW, > Chuck > Chuck, Where can you get that chemical? Is it a common one? Marc From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Oct 18 01:42:53 2018 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 23:42:53 -0700 Subject: Working with Old Tapes In-Reply-To: <9baa0104-1130-c784-d230-635129aad8be@bitsavers.org> References: <9baa0104-1130-c784-d230-635129aad8be@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <7f30f400-1377-de65-9e7a-c3ab5362bff5@jwsss.com> On 10/17/2018 11:05 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Bake the tapes first, preferably with > a lot of moving air before attempting to "clean" a tape. I looked to see if someone suggested a temperature / time, didn't see it.? Can you suggest what would work. Also, I've got some friends following on an audio group who are attempting to restore and transcribe tapes, wondering if there might be anything you can recommend, given that media is thinner, and the data is analog, not digital in nature. If too far off topic on the latter, still wondering on the baking process experiences and recommendations. thanks Jim From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Oct 18 03:31:46 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 10:31:46 +0200 (CEST) Subject: TK50, was: Re: [TUHS] Ultrix Tape: Block Size? In-Reply-To: References: <20181015195622.GB25749@minnie.tuhs.org> <4f20854e-6269-47aa-aeaf-9e2b93aa1201.maildroid@localhost> <2658AACC-A451-4861-8CD8-F7E4BED8062A@comcast.net> <4e0053ba-94d0-e5b3-7f1a-21c1f5b70861@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Oct 2018, Clem Cole wrote: > As Paul W pointed out correctly, the TK50 and its children in the DLT* > family all used a fixed format 512 byte *blocks on the tape*. This And that is wrong. The TK50 clearly uses variable block sizes. For example, have a look at a RSX11 or VMS tape: # mtdump AQ-RAE30-01.tap Processing input file AQ-RAE30-01.tap Processing tape file 1 Obj 1, position 0, record 1, length = 80 (0x50) Obj 2, position 88, record 2, length = 80 (0x50) Obj 3, position 176, record 3, length = 80 (0x50) Obj 4, position 264, record 4, length = 80 (0x50) Obj 5, position 352, record 5, length = 80 (0x50) Obj 6, position 440, end of tape file 1 Processing tape file 2 Obj 7, position 444, record 1, length = 2048 (0x800) Obj 8, position 2500, record 2, length = 2048 (0x800) Obj 9, position 4556, record 3, length = 2048 (0x800) Obj 10, position 6612, end of tape file 2 Processing tape file 3 Obj 11, position 6616, record 1, length = 80 (0x50) [...] Processing tape file 5 Obj 21, position 7328, record 1, length = 9216 (0x2400) [...] Processing tape file 8 Obj 363, position 3061188, record 1, length = 2048 (0x800) [...] Processing tape file 62 Obj 2370, position 19735716, record 1, length = 32256 (0x7E00) [...] Christian From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Oct 18 05:05:05 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 06:05:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RT-11 DY install Message-ID: <20181018100505.1184A18C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Bill Gunshannon >> From: Jerry Weiss >> Note: Apparently the RY emulation won't load if more than 256K memory >> is specified ... I'm entirely not sure why SIMH has to enforce this >> as its possible to work around .. Anyone know how to override and load >> in SIMH? > If it didn't it wouldn't be emulating real PDP-11 hardware. ... > RX02 systems and they do not work with more than 256K. Right, the hardware only has 18 bits of 'buffer address' (in both UNIBUS and QBUS versions). But one can still plug one into a QBUS system with more than 256KB, and use it - you just can't use memory above 256KB for transfers to/from the RX02, since it cannot physically create those addresses. If sounds from Jerry's description as if SIMH refuses to emulate an RX02 if the emulated system is configured with more than 256KB - which would be a bug, if so. Noel From dstalk at execulink.com Thu Oct 18 07:22:29 2018 From: dstalk at execulink.com (Don Stalkowski) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 08:22:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RT-11 DY install In-Reply-To: <2f3a016c-fab5-7e7f-a9ce-719ab3ccfabe@ieee.org> Message-ID: <20181018122229.98650BEE8D9@cel2.x> On Wed Oct 17 19:19:20 2018 cctalk at classiccmp.org (Jerry Weiss via cctalk) wrote: > > On 10/17/18 1:53 PM, Don Stalkowski via cctalk wrote: > > I'm trying to use a simulated RX02 disk (under simh) with RT-11 > > and can't seem to get the DY driver to install. > > > > Here's the relevant log: > > > > sim> set ry enabled > > sim> att ry0 ry0.dsk > > RY: creating new file > > RY: buffering file in memory > > sim> c > > > > > > .install dy > > ?KMON-F-Invalid device installation DL0:DY.SYS > > > > .dir dy.sys > > > > DY .SYS 4P 20-Dec-85 > > 1 Files, 4 Blocks > > 14841 Free blocks > > > > I've tried with 2 different software "kits", the one from the simh site > > and the one from bitsavers. > > > > Any ideas? > > > > Thanks, Don > > > > Try > set cpu 256K > set rx disable > set ry enable > > show ry > RY=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 address=3D17777170-17777173, vector=3D264, BR5, 2 un= > its > =C2=A0 RY0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 512KB, not attached, write enabled > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 double density > =C2=A0 RY1=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 512KB, not attached, write enabled > =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 double density > > Note: Apparently the RY emulation won't load if more than 256K memory is=20 > specified as the DEC hardware did not support DMA in a 22bit box.=C2=A0=C2= > =A0 I'm=20 > entirely not sure why SIMH has to enforce this as its possible to work=20 > around (e.g. TSX+ supports buffering the IO). Anyone know how to=20 > override and load in SIMH? > > > Jerry > Thanks Jerry. That's "fixed" it. Since simh didn't complain about my "set ry enabled" I assumed (wrongly) that that wasn't the issue. Thanks to all the other's who replied. Don From tih at hamartun.priv.no Thu Oct 18 02:48:22 2018 From: tih at hamartun.priv.no (Tom Ivar Helbekkmo) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 09:48:22 +0200 Subject: TK50, was: Re: Ultrix Tape: Block Size? In-Reply-To: (Tom Ivar Helbekkmo via TUHS's message of "Wed, 17 Oct 2018 14:57:38 +0200") References: <20181015195622.GB25749@minnie.tuhs.org> <4f20854e-6269-47aa-aeaf-9e2b93aa1201.maildroid@localhost> <2658AACC-A451-4861-8CD8-F7E4BED8062A@comcast.net> <4e0053ba-94d0-e5b3-7f1a-21c1f5b70861@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: I wrote: > I'll have to open up my PDP-11/83 tonight. Its TK50 will stream while > writing, as long as what's being written can be read reasonably fast > from (RQDX3/RD54) disk. The TQK controller is sitting right up at the > top end of the Q-bus, to get high priority -- but I don't know if it's a > TQK70. I've really just assumed it's a TQK50 without thinking too much > about it... Turns out it's an M7546; a TQK50. I guess I'll get streaming writes more often with an M7559 (TQK70) than I do at the moment, then. :) -tih -- Most people who graduate with CS degrees don't understand the significance of Lisp. Lisp is the most important idea in computer science. --Alan Kay From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Oct 18 08:23:34 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 09:23:34 -0400 Subject: TK50, was: Re: [TUHS] Ultrix Tape: Block Size? In-Reply-To: References: <20181015195622.GB25749@minnie.tuhs.org> <4f20854e-6269-47aa-aeaf-9e2b93aa1201.maildroid@localhost> <2658AACC-A451-4861-8CD8-F7E4BED8062A@comcast.net> <4e0053ba-94d0-e5b3-7f1a-21c1f5b70861@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <3305D9F8-5FF0-4640-A7CB-803AF699885F@comcast.net> > On Oct 18, 2018, at 4:31 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, 17 Oct 2018, Clem Cole wrote: >> As Paul W pointed out correctly, the TK50 and its children in the DLT* >> family all used a fixed format 512 byte *blocks on the tape*. This > > And that is wrong. The TK50 clearly uses variable block sizes. For example, have a look at a RSX11 or VMS tape: ... Different point. You're talking about the host programming interface; Clem was talking about the physical representation of the data on the tape. Clearly it's easy to accept random-length blocks from the host and translate them to a sequence of 512 byte blocks on the media. SIMH is an example of how that is done: it stores tape images as a count field plus data, laid down in a disk file that internally consists of a sequence of fixed length (512 bytes, traditionally) sectors. paul From imp at bsdimp.com Thu Oct 18 08:50:21 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 07:50:21 -0600 Subject: TK50, was: Re: [TUHS] Ultrix Tape: Block Size? In-Reply-To: <3305D9F8-5FF0-4640-A7CB-803AF699885F@comcast.net> References: <20181015195622.GB25749@minnie.tuhs.org> <4f20854e-6269-47aa-aeaf-9e2b93aa1201.maildroid@localhost> <2658AACC-A451-4861-8CD8-F7E4BED8062A@comcast.net> <4e0053ba-94d0-e5b3-7f1a-21c1f5b70861@e-bbes.com> <3305D9F8-5FF0-4640-A7CB-803AF699885F@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 7:23 AM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Oct 18, 2018, at 4:31 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Wed, 17 Oct 2018, Clem Cole wrote: > >> As Paul W pointed out correctly, the TK50 and its children in the DLT* > >> family all used a fixed format 512 byte *blocks on the tape*. This > > > > And that is wrong. The TK50 clearly uses variable block sizes. For > example, have a look at a RSX11 or VMS tape: ... > > Different point. You're talking about the host programming interface; > Clem was talking about the physical representation of the data on the > tape. Clearly it's easy to accept random-length blocks from the host and > translate them to a sequence of 512 byte blocks on the media. SIMH is an > example of how that is done: it stores tape images as a count field plus > data, laid down in a disk file that internally consists of a sequence of > fixed length (512 bytes, traditionally) sectors. > Although they may be on the tape in some funky way, there's a higher layer in the protocol stack that imposes block length, and if that's not properly honored, the tapes written for Ultrix won't work when read back. You can't write weird block lengths and expect the applications that read it downstream to work. I have a vague memory of lecturing one of the hydrologists I worked for in college on this point when they were sloppy with their reading / writing of a TK50 with their water flow data on it... The code fix, which I wound up doing, was easier than explaining this concept to the hydrologist who, while he knew finite difference code better than I ever learned, had trouble understanding record boundaries.... In the end, though, we got a larger disk so we could stage / unstage multiple runs of data at once and then used VMS' BACKUP to save them to tape... The TK50's were a *LOT* faster when the only job on the system was BACKUP since they could stream and none of the other OS activity could get in the way... Warner From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Oct 18 09:10:54 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 10:10:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: -11/44 Tech Manual available for scan Message-ID: <20181018141054.B340B18C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So, I recently acquired a copy of the unavilable on-line -11/44 Tech Manual, EK-KD11Z-TM-001; alas, it's bound, and I don't wish to debind it to scan it. If anyone has one of those gizmos that can scan bound books, and wants to scan this, please let me know, and I can lend it to you. Noel From db at db.net Thu Oct 18 10:00:58 2018 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 11:00:58 -0400 Subject: Few surplus manuals/data books Message-ID: <20181018150058.GA21072@night.db.net> Free for cost of postage - Digital microcomputer interfaces handbook (dated 1980) "Hamilton Avnet" sticker on cover - Intel iAPX 286 Programmer's Refernce Manual - Motorola RF Data Manual (1980) - Atmel Data Manual (1989) - Intel ISIS-II USER'S GUIDE Copyright 1976, 1977, 1978 As you can imagine I doubt there is interest in all of the above, but still I had to ask. Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://artemis.db.net/~db From couryhouse at aol.com Thu Oct 18 10:56:29 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 11:56:29 -0400 Subject: -11/44 Tech Manual available for scan In-Reply-To: <20181018141054.B340B18C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181018141054.B340B18C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <16687e47583-1ec7-275d@webjas-vab052.srv.aolmail.net> I? do know internet? archive? does... ---Ed# In a message dated 10/18/2018 7:11:00 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? So, I recently acquired a copy of the unavilable on-line -11/44 Tech Manual, EK-KD11Z-TM-001; alas, it's bound, and I don't wish to debind it to scan it. If anyone has one of those gizmos that can scan bound books, and wants to scan this, please let me know, and I can lend it to you. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Oct 18 11:07:00 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 12:07:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: -11/44 Tech Manual available for scan Message-ID: <20181018160700.0FC8A18C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > the unavilable on-line -11/44 Tech Manual, EK-KD11Z-TM-001 Ooops: https://vt100.net/manx/details/1,3126 Not sure how that one didn't make it into my PDF collection.... Noel From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Thu Oct 18 11:10:23 2018 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 12:10:23 -0400 Subject: Few surplus manuals/data books In-Reply-To: <20181018150058.GA21072@night.db.net> References: <20181018150058.GA21072@night.db.net> Message-ID: I'll take Digital microcomputer interfaces handbook (dated 1980)! We can do logistics off-list. =] -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 11:01 AM Diane Bruce via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Free for cost of postage > > - Digital microcomputer interfaces handbook (dated 1980) > "Hamilton Avnet" sticker on cover > - Intel iAPX 286 Programmer's Refernce Manual > - Motorola RF Data Manual (1980) > - Atmel Data Manual (1989) > - Intel ISIS-II USER'S GUIDE Copyright 1976, 1977, 1978 > > As you can imagine I doubt there is interest in all of the above, > but still I had to ask. > > Diane > -- > - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://artemis.db.net/~db > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Oct 18 11:29:46 2018 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 17:29:46 +0100 Subject: RT-11 DY install In-Reply-To: <20181018122229.98650BEE8D9@cel2.x> References: <20181018122229.98650BEE8D9@cel2.x> Message-ID: On 18/10/2018 13:22, Don Stalkowski via cctalk wrote: > On Wed Oct 17 19:19:20 2018 cctalk at classiccmp.org (Jerry Weiss via > cctalk) wrote: >> Note: Apparently the RY emulation won't load if more than 256K >> memory is specified as the DEC hardware did not support DMA in a >> 22bit box. I'm=20 entirely not sure why SIMH has to >> enforce this as its possible to work around (e.g. TSX+ supports >> buffering the IO). Anyone know how to override and load in >> SIMH? >> >> Jerry > Thanks Jerry. That's "fixed" it. Since simh didn't complain about my > "set ry enabled" I assumed (wrongly) that that wasn't the issue. > > Thanks to all the other's who replied. As Noel pointed out, real PDP-11s definitely work with RX02 subsystems in 22-bit systems. SIMH really ought to be able to do so regardless of 18-bit or 22-bit memory. The DY driver in RT-11, for example, simply knows to only use the bottom 256K for DMA I/O. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Thu Oct 18 13:39:00 2018 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 14:39:00 -0400 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen Message-ID: I would like to make a correction: Paul Allen helped to create Micro-Soft not MicroSoft as I had written. When trying to preserve computing history it's really not permissable to make such an error.(It's the prof. in me!) Happy Computing! Murray :) From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Oct 18 15:34:59 2018 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 22:34:59 +0200 Subject: Identifying TO-3 w/HP house numbering In-Reply-To: References: <408C8807-CA50-4C8C-8A41-0F112201535A@gmail.com> <5E76B289-97BF-4194-83DF-004A051CFF22@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20181018203459.GA79476@beast.freibergnet.de> Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 11:19 AM Josh Dersch wrote: > > > Thanks, all, for the responses! The way it measures out makes it look > > like it may be an MJ10006 or similar. I think it's probably ok. > > > > I poked around a bit more this morning and it's looking like part of the > > flyback is shorted out -- we have a 2382 at the museum and I popped it open > > just now and I verified that it measures differently (i.e "not shorted" :)) > > at the same points. So that's likely my problem. Drat. > > > > - Josh > > > > And I was wrong -- the flyback's fine (yay!). Found a nearby 0.015uF, 400V > film capacitor that was shorted. Replaced it and now I have video! It's a > bit dim, it's too wide, and gets wider as it warms up but it's a start :). > > Thanks again, > Josh Sure? It sounds not like a start, it sounds more like the finish..or the end of the flyback transformer. The symptoms you describe, to weide and dull image .getting wider while warmup are those from a dead transformer. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 18 17:01:12 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 15:01:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you for the correction. Yes, companies often change their names. Gary Kildall founded Intergalactic Digital Research. George Morrow founded Thinker Toys, which later became Morrow's Micro Stuff, and eventually Morrow Designs. Greenberg and Grant founded Kentucky Fried Computers, which became North Star (due to a lawsuit from a chicken place), and eventually NorthStar Can you pinpoint when the microcomputer businesses lost their sense of humor? On Thu, 18 Oct 2018, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > I would like to make a correction: Paul Allen helped to create > Micro-Soft not MicroSoft as I had written. When trying to preserve > computing history it's really not permissable to make such an > error.(It's the prof. in me!) > > Happy Computing! > > Murray :) > -- Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 234-3397 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 18 18:25:09 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 16:25:09 -0700 Subject: Working with Old Tapes In-Reply-To: <44F33B44-9839-47F4-B3EE-B5FC820F7BCA@gmail.com> References: <9baa0104-1130-c784-d230-635129aad8be@bitsavers.org> <4EC66E88-8F3E-49C3-8329-623E563ADE01@comcast.net> <4a071287-9eca-018a-3354-c2bb4673a8a9@sydex.com> <44F33B44-9839-47F4-B3EE-B5FC820F7BCA@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10/17/18 11:22 PM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: > Where can you get that chemical? Is it a common one? you can buy it on eBay it's used in making soap and hair conditioner https://www.ebay.com/itm/Cyclomethicone-Liquid-500ml-New/332824673193 you can use it on floppies too, but use it sparingly From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 18 18:33:16 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 16:33:16 -0700 Subject: Working with Old Tapes In-Reply-To: <7f30f400-1377-de65-9e7a-c3ab5362bff5@jwsss.com> References: <9baa0104-1130-c784-d230-635129aad8be@bitsavers.org> <7f30f400-1377-de65-9e7a-c3ab5362bff5@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <60ee85f2-a508-c099-c927-83833df34558@bitsavers.org> On 10/17/18 11:42 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > Also, I've got some friends following on an audio group who are attempting to restore and transcribe tapes, wondering if > there might be anything you can recommend, given that media is thinner, and the data is analog, not digital in nature. There are extensive discussions on the tapeheads list of the issues with recovering audio tape. One thing to watch out for is keeping the temperature consistent and low enough to keep the reels from warping. Pictures of the tape baker I made about 10 years ago is at the bottom of the main http://bitsavers.org page I hang the reels vertically and force a lot of air through them with a bank of 6 muffin fans just above the heater on the bottom. The end of the tape is scotch-taped to the surface of the reel to maintain some tension, and to keep the tape from getting caught by the fans. From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Oct 18 18:37:59 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 19:37:59 -0400 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: When I was teaching at the U of Delaware I helped make a computer exhibit containing 4 of the Microsoft logos: http://www.vintagecomputer.net/UofDelaware/microsoft/large_MS_poster_final.pdf Bill On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 6:01 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Thank you for the correction. > > Yes, companies often change their names. > > Gary Kildall founded Intergalactic Digital Research. > > George Morrow founded Thinker Toys, which later became Morrow's Micro > Stuff, and eventually Morrow Designs. > > Greenberg and Grant founded Kentucky Fried Computers, which became North > Star (due to a lawsuit from a chicken place), and eventually NorthStar > > Can you pinpoint when the microcomputer businesses lost their sense of > humor? > > > On Thu, 18 Oct 2018, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > > > I would like to make a correction: Paul Allen helped to create > > Micro-Soft not MicroSoft as I had written. When trying to preserve > > computing history it's really not permissable to make such an > > error.(It's the prof. in me!) > > > > Happy Computing! > > > > Murray :) > > > > -- > Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com > XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com > PO Box 1236 (510) 234-3397 > Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 > > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Oct 18 19:34:11 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 00:34:11 +0000 Subject: Cleaning out again #2 Message-ID: Here's a list of? my next batch of stuff that can be mailed.? Make an offer. Plan on USPS "if it fits it ships" postage. Data Translation DT2769/EP057???????????????????????????????? QTY 2 Data Translation DT15150/EP075 Dual D/A Converter Module ADAC 1616/32HCO ADAC 1632TTL????????????????????????????????????????????????? QTY 3 ADAC 1412DA? CONVERTER ANALOG TO DIGITAL 4CHANNEL ADAC 1012??? DATA AQUISITION Plessey Peripherals? 703185-100C & 701877-100? with Cable BC13B-25? monitor cable bill From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Oct 18 21:07:42 2018 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 21:07:42 -0500 Subject: Identify old PC In-Reply-To: <60ee85f2-a508-c099-c927-83833df34558@bitsavers.org> References: <9baa0104-1130-c784-d230-635129aad8be@bitsavers.org> <7f30f400-1377-de65-9e7a-c3ab5362bff5@jwsss.com> <60ee85f2-a508-c099-c927-83833df34558@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20181019021056.3B41527425@mx1.ezwind.net> Pardon the post of content from elsewhere, but this one had me puzzled, perhaps because I'd been puzzled earlier the same day by a IMSAI advert (http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads-1980s/19) that showed something other than an IMSAI 8080. Does anyone recognize this old computer (from Reddit)? https://www.reddit.com/r/vintagecomputing/comments/9pc7sx/help_identifying_this_old_pc/ - John From derek.newland at gmail.com Thu Oct 18 21:42:49 2018 From: derek.newland at gmail.com (Derek Newland) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 22:42:49 -0400 Subject: Identify old PC In-Reply-To: <20181019021056.3B41527425@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <9baa0104-1130-c784-d230-635129aad8be@bitsavers.org> <7f30f400-1377-de65-9e7a-c3ab5362bff5@jwsss.com> <60ee85f2-a508-c099-c927-83833df34558@bitsavers.org> <20181019021056.3B41527425@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Looks like an IMSAI PCS? Here's a good picture of one: https://www.reddit.com/r/retrobattlestations/comments/71e4dy/imsai_pcs_8030_s100_computer_with_ikb1_war_games/ Some more info here: http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=342 On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 10:11 PM John Foust via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Pardon the post of content from elsewhere, but this one had me puzzled, > perhaps because I'd been puzzled earlier the same day by a IMSAI advert > (http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads-1980s/19) > that showed something other than an IMSAI 8080. > > Does anyone recognize this old computer (from Reddit)? > > > https://www.reddit.com/r/vintagecomputing/comments/9pc7sx/help_identifying_this_old_pc/ > > - John > > -- *Derek Newland* | (828) 234-4731 | derek.newland at gmail.com From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Oct 18 23:56:33 2018 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 21:56:33 -0700 Subject: Identify old PC In-Reply-To: References: <9baa0104-1130-c784-d230-635129aad8be@bitsavers.org> <7f30f400-1377-de65-9e7a-c3ab5362bff5@jwsss.com> <60ee85f2-a508-c099-c927-83833df34558@bitsavers.org> <20181019021056.3B41527425@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 10/18/2018 7:42 PM, Derek Newland via cctalk wrote: > Looks like an IMSAI PCS? > > Here's a good picture of one: > https://www.reddit.com/r/retrobattlestations/comments/71e4dy/imsai_pcs_8030_s100_computer_with_ikb1_war_games/ > > Some more info here: http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=342 > > On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 10:11 PM John Foust via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Pardon the post of content from elsewhere, but this one had me puzzled, >> perhaps because I'd been puzzled earlier the same day by a IMSAI advert >> (http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads-1980s/19) >> that showed something other than an IMSAI 8080. >> >> Does anyone recognize this old computer (from Reddit)? >> >> >> https://www.reddit.com/r/vintagecomputing/comments/9pc7sx/help_identifying_this_old_pc/ >> >> - John The reddit photo shows a unit with sloped sides.? Similar to the older Altos systems, before they went with fancy moldings. The sides are not square like any Imsai I saw, and there is a monitor on top, which is also in a slope case.? I don't recognize it, but as I said the Altos look like one of the 58x (I think) looks similar. thanks. Jim From wayne.sudol at hotmail.com Thu Oct 18 17:06:30 2018 From: wayne.sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne S) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 22:06:30 +0000 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 18, 2018, at 15:01, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Thank you for the correction. > > Yes, companies often change their names. > > Gary Kildall founded Intergalactic Digital Research. > > George Morrow founded Thinker Toys, which later became Morrow's Micro Stuff, and eventually Morrow Designs. > > Greenberg and Grant founded Kentucky Fried Computers, which became North Star (due to a lawsuit from a chicken place), and eventually NorthStar > > Can you pinpoint when the microcomputer businesses lost their sense of humor? When the Lawyers got involved? > >> On Thu, 18 Oct 2018, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: >> >> I would like to make a correction: Paul Allen helped to create >> Micro-Soft not MicroSoft as I had written. When trying to preserve >> computing history it's really not permissable to make such an >> error.(It's the prof. in me!) >> >> Happy Computing! >> >> Murray :) > > -- > Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com > XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com > PO Box 1236 (510) 234-3397 > Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 19 00:37:08 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 22:37:08 -0700 Subject: Identify old PC In-Reply-To: References: <9baa0104-1130-c784-d230-635129aad8be@bitsavers.org> <7f30f400-1377-de65-9e7a-c3ab5362bff5@jwsss.com> <60ee85f2-a508-c099-c927-83833df34558@bitsavers.org> <20181019021056.3B41527425@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 10/18/18 9:56 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > The sides are not square like any Imsai I saw, and there is a monitor on > top, which is also in a slope case.? I don't recognize it, but as I said > the Altos look like one of the 58x (I think) looks similar. Don't think so---the trapezoidal monitor case is wrong for an ACS586, as well as the case being too tall--the 586 FH drive faceplates came right up to the top of the system cover. In a way, it resembles a Commodore PET but for the shape of the system unit, which looks like a CBM 4040 drive box. Did such a box ever have the option for a 5.25" hard disk drive? --Chuck From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Oct 19 00:53:24 2018 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 22:53:24 -0700 Subject: Identify old PC In-Reply-To: References: <9baa0104-1130-c784-d230-635129aad8be@bitsavers.org> <7f30f400-1377-de65-9e7a-c3ab5362bff5@jwsss.com> <60ee85f2-a508-c099-c927-83833df34558@bitsavers.org> <20181019021056.3B41527425@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 10/18/2018 10:37 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 10/18/18 9:56 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > >> The sides are not square like any Imsai I saw, and there is a monitor on >> top, which is also in a slope case.? I don't recognize it, but as I said >> the Altos look like one of the 58x (I think) looks similar. > Don't think so---the trapezoidal monitor case is wrong for an ACS586, as > well as the case being too tall--the 586 FH drive faceplates came right > up to the top of the system cover. I was saying more reminded of Altos.? Maybe early versions, not sure.? I agree it doesn't match it at all. All the Altos boxes I have are 8" floppy boxes w/o that nonsense, so haven't got a lot of experience with those. And you're right the Commodore thing is going on there too. thanks Jim > In a way, it resembles a Commodore PET but for the shape of the system > unit, which looks like a CBM 4040 drive box. Did such a box ever have > the option for a 5.25" hard disk drive? > > --Chuck > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Oct 19 01:14:24 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 02:14:24 -0400 Subject: Identify old PC In-Reply-To: References: <9baa0104-1130-c784-d230-635129aad8be@bitsavers.org> <7f30f400-1377-de65-9e7a-c3ab5362bff5@jwsss.com> <60ee85f2-a508-c099-c927-83833df34558@bitsavers.org> <20181019021056.3B41527425@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Its possibly something like but not exactly a Raytheon, Sweda, Lanier etc or similar business machine just before the IBM PC I have never seen this one. Bill On Fri, Oct 19, 2018, 1:53 AM jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > On 10/18/2018 10:37 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 10/18/18 9:56 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > >> The sides are not square like any Imsai I saw, and there is a monitor on > >> top, which is also in a slope case. I don't recognize it, but as I said > >> the Altos look like one of the 58x (I think) looks similar. > > Don't think so---the trapezoidal monitor case is wrong for an ACS586, as > > well as the case being too tall--the 586 FH drive faceplates came right > > up to the top of the system cover. > I was saying more reminded of Altos. Maybe early versions, not sure. I > agree it doesn't match it at all. > > All the Altos boxes I have are 8" floppy boxes w/o that nonsense, so > haven't got a lot of experience with those. > > And you're right the Commodore thing is going on there too. > thanks > Jim > > In a way, it resembles a Commodore PET but for the shape of the system > > unit, which looks like a CBM 4040 drive box. Did such a box ever have > > the option for a 5.25" hard disk drive? > > > > --Chuck > > > > > > From jim.manley at gmail.com Fri Oct 19 02:50:20 2018 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 01:50:20 -0600 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I thought it was just hilarious that Microsoft chose The Rolling Stones' "Start Me Up" for the theme song at the launch of Windows 95, unaware of the later lyrics in the song (not played during the launch, oddly enough), "You make a grown man cry-y-y ... You make a grown man cry-y-y ... You make a grown man cry-y-y ... " Who says they lost their sense of humor ... oh, you mean them being humorous on purpose, not making themselves a laughingstock ... mmm, not so much. As for when the lawyers showed up, Bill Gates' father was one of the most wealthy corporate lawyers in Seattle, so it wasn't much of a risk for Bill III to drop out of Hahvahd to pursue the launching of Micro-Soft. Hahvahd would have allowed him to return, especially given Daddy's large checks written to cover Bill III's tuition, fees, books, room/board, etc. So, Bill II and Bill III undoubtedly had frequent and detailed discussions about how to deal with IBM (non-exclusive licensing, IBM's onerous non-disclosure agreements, IBM's likely motivations for getting into the PC business, etc.). The PC was developed by the IBM Data Entry Systems Division in Boca Raton, FL - the keyboards, monitors, and terminals folks. IBM only saw the PC as a short-term, standalone product that, in the best case, would simply become a not-quite-dumb terminal that would increase the access to and sales of their office AS/400 systems and System 370 and other mainframe products. IBM developed a Token Ring card for the PC in time for its launch based on this intent, long before the Color Graphics Adapters were available, about six months after launch, and the CGAs were only produced in response to the completely unanticipated demand for the PC. IBM's suppliers were brow-beaten during the early years of PC production because they suddenly were faced with a need to produce millions, then tens of millions of parts per year. This was far beyond their past parts demand experience, and challenged them in ways companies never had been before. As Steve Jobs said in a full-page ad taken out in the Wall Street Journal upon the PC's launch, "Welcome, IBM. Seriously." Seriously, indeed. The Token Ring card barely sold any units, in no small part because IBM was completely unaware that microcomputer hobbyists and small businesses were using modems, especially the Hayes SmartModem products, to access on-line services such as The Well, GEnie, CompuServe, etc. And the rest, as they say, is history. All the Best, Jim Volunteer Senior Docent Artifact Restoration Engineer Geek 2.0 Artifact Computer History Museum On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 10:58 PM Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Oct 18, 2018, at 15:01, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > > > Thank you for the correction. > > > > Yes, companies often change their names. > > > > Gary Kildall founded Intergalactic Digital Research. > > > > George Morrow founded Thinker Toys, which later became Morrow's Micro Stuff, and eventually Morrow Designs. > > > > Greenberg and Grant founded Kentucky Fried Computers, which became North Star (due to a lawsuit from a chicken place), and eventually NorthStar > > > > Can you pinpoint when the microcomputer businesses lost their sense of humor? > > When the Lawyers got involved? > > > >> On Thu, 18 Oct 2018, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > >> > >> I would like to make a correction: Paul Allen helped to create > >> Micro-Soft not MicroSoft as I had written. When trying to preserve > >> computing history it's really not permissable to make such an > >> error.(It's the prof. in me!) > >> > >> Happy Computing! > >> > >> Murray :) > > > > -- > > Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com > > XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com > > PO Box 1236 (510) 234-3397 > > Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 > > From brianb1224 at aol.com Fri Oct 19 04:26:32 2018 From: brianb1224 at aol.com (brianb1224) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 04:26:32 -0500 Subject: Identify old PC In-Reply-To: <20181019021056.3B41527425@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20181019092642.CBD7D27664@mx1.ezwind.net> If anything. You can put it in the museum listing of let's stump the experts. -------- Original message --------From: John Foust via cctalk Date: 10/18/18 9:07 PM (GMT-06:00) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Identify old PC Pardon the post of content from elsewhere, but this one had me puzzled, perhaps because I'd been puzzled earlier the same day by a IMSAI advert (http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads-1980s/19) that showed something other than an IMSAI 8080. Does anyone recognize this old computer (from Reddit)? https://www.reddit.com/r/vintagecomputing/comments/9pc7sx/help_identifying_this_old_pc/ - John From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Oct 19 07:41:02 2018 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 07:41:02 -0500 Subject: Identify old PC In-Reply-To: References: <9baa0104-1130-c784-d230-635129aad8be@bitsavers.org> <7f30f400-1377-de65-9e7a-c3ab5362bff5@jwsss.com> <60ee85f2-a508-c099-c927-83833df34558@bitsavers.org> <20181019021056.3B41527425@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20181019124509.1EFC44E88B@mx2.ezwind.net> At 12:37 AM 10/19/2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >In a way, it resembles a Commodore PET but for the shape of the system >unit, which looks like a CBM 4040 drive box. Did such a box ever have >the option for a 5.25" hard disk drive? Is this a stumper? CBM made a 8060 and 9090, also IEEE-488, 5 and 7 meg, single drive in a box. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_D9060 They would've had to have packed the SASI / 488 interface into the same box. The floppy board was already big. http://www.nightfallcrew.com/30/10/2014/commodore-dual-drive-floppy-disk-model-4040-repair/ I checked my 2040. Mine seems to be missing the upper sticker. The box in the Reddit post doesn't quite look like the CBM box. The CBM box has a large white metal area where the sticker goes. The monitor in the post has the opposite color scheme of CBM. CBM was black on the bezel and white on the metal. This was spotted in Joliet, Illinois. - John From ethan at 757.org Fri Oct 19 08:04:22 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 09:04:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I thought it was just hilarious that Microsoft chose The Rolling > Stones' "Start Me Up" for the theme song at the launch of Windows 95, > unaware of the later lyrics in the song (not played during the launch, IIRC They wanted R.E.M.'s "End of the world as we know it" but R.E.M. said no. - Ethan From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Oct 19 08:05:30 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 09:05:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [TUHS] Alan Snyder's portable C compiler Message-ID: <20181019130530.47F7218C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> FYI: From: Lars Brinkhoff Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 11:08:29 +0000 I have Alan Snyder's C compiler running in case anyone would like to play with it. It's from around 1975, so the syntax is yummily archaic. The primary host is a PDP-10 running ITS, but there may also be machine descriptions for Honeywell 6000 series and PDP-11. At some point it seems like this compiler was tangled with Stephen Johnson's PCC. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Oct 19 08:08:36 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 09:08:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [TUHS] Alan Snyder's portable C compiler Message-ID: <20181019130836.391F518C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Lars Brinkhoff > I have Alan Snyder's C compiler running Way cool! Congrats! Where did you find it? Do you have source too? > there may also be machine descriptions for Honeywell 6000 series and > PDP-11 There _was_ one for the H6000, not sure about the -11. > At some point it seems like this compiler was tangled with Stephen > Johnson's PCC. It would be good to find out what, if any, the connection is. Noel From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Oct 19 09:00:54 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 08:00:54 -0600 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 7:04 AM Ethan via cctalk wrote: > > I thought it was just hilarious that Microsoft chose The Rolling > > Stones' "Start Me Up" for the theme song at the launch of Windows 95, > > unaware of the later lyrics in the song (not played during the launch, > > IIRC They wanted R.E.M.'s "End of the world as we know it" but R.E.M. said > no. > That would have been awesome in the same kind of terrible way... And it would be a nice personal tie in for me... this song was on the radio, by coincidence, when I was headed up the hill going out of town catching the last view of my college campus after I graduated and was moving to California... "and I feel fine" Warner From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Oct 19 10:24:51 2018 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 11:24:51 -0400 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <04d101d467bf$e271cbb0$a7556310$@verizon.net> Fred, Have you ever seen any actual "Kentucky Fried Computers" anything? Ads? Marketing lit? Hardware? Letterhead? Incorporation application? I've looked in the past and have never turned up anything. Thanks, Bill -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin via cctalk Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2018 6:01 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Microsoft-Paul Allen Thank you for the correction. Yes, companies often change their names. Gary Kildall founded Intergalactic Digital Research. George Morrow founded Thinker Toys, which later became Morrow's Micro Stuff, and eventually Morrow Designs. Greenberg and Grant founded Kentucky Fried Computers, which became North Star (due to a lawsuit from a chicken place), and eventually NorthStar Can you pinpoint when the microcomputer businesses lost their sense of humor? On Thu, 18 Oct 2018, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > I would like to make a correction: Paul Allen helped to create > Micro-Soft not MicroSoft as I had written. When trying to preserve > computing history it's really not permissable to make such an > error.(It's the prof. in me!) > > Happy Computing! > > Murray :) > -- Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 234-3397 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Oct 19 10:34:17 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 11:34:17 -0400 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal Message-ID: Here is a great example of why the keyboards and terminals are getting separated https://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-3101-beam-spring-keyboard-purchased-new-in-1982/123422383512?hash=item1cbc8c1d98:g:sCkAAOSwfbhbwQvU Note the price $2000 so far. How could one blame the seller. I wonder if this is the terminal I sold to a buyer in California years ago when I sold my Series/1 computer. All he wanted was the terminal, I donated the rest to what was the MARCH museum. At the time I remember having a few words with the buyer who would not also take the Series/1 system (2 racks) or the manuals. There is a naked terminal up for grabs if you're out his way. Bill From js at cimmeri.com Fri Oct 19 10:41:11 2018 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 10:41:11 -0500 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5BC9FB17.90304@cimmeri.com> On 10/19/2018 10:34 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Here is a great example of why the keyboards and terminals are getting > separated > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-3101-beam-spring-keyboard-purchased-new-in-1982/123422383512?hash=item1cbc8c1d98:g:sCkAAOSwfbhbwQvU > > Note the price $2000 so far. How could one blame the seller. I wonder if > this is the terminal I sold to a buyer in California years ago when I sold > my Series/1 computer. All he wanted was the terminal, I donated the rest > to what was the MARCH museum. At the time I remember having a few words > with the buyer who would not also take the Series/1 system (2 racks) or the > manuals. > > There is a naked terminal up for grabs if you're out his way. > > Bill B, I don't get it. Why is the keyboard being sold alone, when the terminal is right there? And how come this particular keyboard is so hugely in demand? - J. From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Oct 19 10:48:00 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 11:48:00 -0400 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: <5BC9FB17.90304@cimmeri.com> References: <5BC9FB17.90304@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 11:40 AM js--- via cctalk wrote: > On 10/19/2018 10:34 AM, Bill Degnan via > cctalk wrote: > > Here is a great example of why the keyboards and terminals are getting > > separated > > > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-3101-beam-spring-keyboard-purchased-new-in-1982/123422383512?hash=item1cbc8c1d98:g:sCkAAOSwfbhbwQvU > > > > Note the price $2000 so far. How could one blame the seller. I wonder > if > > this is the terminal I sold to a buyer in California years ago when I > sold > > my Series/1 computer. All he wanted was the terminal, I donated the rest > > to what was the MARCH museum. At the time I remember having a few words > > with the buyer who would not also take the Series/1 system (2 racks) or > the > > manuals. > > > > There is a naked terminal up for grabs if you're out his way. > > > > Bill > > B, I don't get it. Why is the keyboard > being sold alone, when the terminal is > right there? > > And how come this particular keyboard is > so hugely in demand? > > - J. > I sold the entire Series/1 system for $1000 many years ago, and the guy only wanted the terminal. The rest could be discarded as far as the buyer cared. This is not a new thing I guess. Probably this is not the same person selling now that bought my terminal then, now that I see the location, but you never know. I do have a few orphaned keyboards from who knows when, spares and so on, but not as a result of intentionally selling just the terminal :-) b From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Oct 19 10:59:13 2018 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 10:59:13 -0500 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: <5BC9FB17.90304@cimmeri.com> References: <5BC9FB17.90304@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <20181019155919.EF8714E7D2@mx2.ezwind.net> At 10:41 AM 10/19/2018, js--- via cctalk wrote: >B, I don't get it. Why is the keyboard being sold alone, when the terminal is right there? And how come this particular keyboard is so hugely in demand? My son is a fancy Silicon Valley twenty-something programmer, and all he wanted for Christmas last year was one of my old IBM M series keyboards. Collectible and usable; no doubt someone sells an adapter to USB. - John From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Oct 19 11:10:44 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 12:10:44 -0400 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: <20181019155919.EF8714E7D2@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <1668d17e2e0-1ec3-10b9@webjas-vae050.srv.aolmail.net> i used an adapter to usb? and? it? would? glitch? and lock? sometimes... ed# In a message dated 10/19/2018 8:59:25 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? At 10:41 AM 10/19/2018, js--- via cctalk wrote: >B, I don't get it. Why is the keyboard being sold alone, when the terminal is right there? And how come this particular keyboard is so hugely in demand? My son is a fancy Silicon Valley twenty-something programmer, and all he wanted for Christmas last year was one of my old IBM M series keyboards. Collectible and usable; no doubt someone sells an adapter to USB. - John From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Oct 19 11:10:43 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 10:10:43 -0600 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: <20181019155919.EF8714E7D2@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <5BC9FB17.90304@cimmeri.com> <20181019155919.EF8714E7D2@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 9:59 AM John Foust via cctalk wrote: > At 10:41 AM 10/19/2018, js--- via cctalk wrote: > >B, I don't get it. Why is the keyboard being sold alone, when the > terminal is right there? And how come this particular keyboard is so > hugely in demand? > > My son is a fancy Silicon Valley twenty-something programmer, and > all he wanted for Christmas last year was one of my old IBM M series > keyboards. > > Collectible and usable; no doubt someone sells an adapter to USB. > They are just PS/2 keyboards, right? Or AT? The USB adapters for that are a dime a dozen. I have 4 in my basement (the real PS/2 to USB, not the faux ones that allowed dual-mode mice to connect to USB). Warner From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Oct 19 11:14:56 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 12:14:56 -0400 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: <5BC9FB17.90304@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <1668d1bb687-1ec2-1180@webjas-vae115.srv.aolmail.net> OK I? am sorry? I? do not? understand? why the keyboard? went? this high? Please... Please... someone? explain? ? ? Ed# ? ? ? In a message dated 10/19/2018 8:40:09 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? On 10/19/2018 10:34 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Here is a great example of why the keyboards and terminals are getting > separated > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-3101-beam-spring-keyboard-purchased-new-in-1982/123422383512?hash=item1cbc8c1d98:g:sCkAAOSwfbhbwQvU > > Note the price $2000 so far. How could one blame the seller. I wonder if > this is the terminal I sold to a buyer in California years ago when I sold > my Series/1 computer. All he wanted was the terminal, I donated the rest > to what was the MARCH museum. At the time I remember having a few words > with the buyer who would not also take the Series/1 system (2 racks) or the > manuals. > > There is a naked terminal up for grabs if you're out his way. > > Bill B, I don't get it. Why is the keyboard being sold alone, when the terminal is right there? And how come this particular keyboard is so hugely in demand? - J. From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Oct 19 11:15:23 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 09:15:23 -0700 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 12:51 AM Jim Manley via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I > > IBM developed a Token Ring card for the PC in time for its launch > based on this intent, long before the Color Graphics Adapters were > available, about six months after launch, and the CGAs were only > produced in response to the completely unanticipated demand for the > PC. > I didn't think IBM introduced token ring until 1985 or so... - Josh > > From ethan at 757.org Fri Oct 19 11:16:03 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 12:16:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Here is a great example of why the keyboards and terminals are getting > separated I sold a working luggable computer. The keys were a bit clicky but I put on the auction to try to thwart the keyboard collectors. I shipped it working, buyer claimed it wasn't working when arrived. Ended up having to refund on it. Ate $110 in shipping. I'm super paranoid that the buyer was looking for certain keyboard and just fried it to claim insurance. It definitely squashed any enthusiasm about selling on eBay, outside of all the work done to pack and ship and have some 14% of the sale price taken by eBay/PayPal. - Ethan From ethan at 757.org Fri Oct 19 11:19:20 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 12:19:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: <1668d1bb687-1ec2-1180@webjas-vae115.srv.aolmail.net> References: <1668d1bb687-1ec2-1180@webjas-vae115.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: > OK I? am sorry? I? do not? understand? why the keyboard? went? this high? > Please... Please... someone? explain? > Ed# Race for the loudest keyboard. Bragging rights of the rare? An Adlib card sold for $3100 a year ago or so. Friends were suspicious that people were driving up the price of their own posession to try to mark to market some of the retro stuff higher. Basically, create the same speculation that housing has gone through recently like the cryptocurrency people do. I don't get it. You can buy off the shelf clicky keyboards with RGB for $150. -- : Ethan O'Toole From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Oct 19 11:19:50 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 12:19:50 -0400 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: References: <5BC9FB17.90304@cimmeri.com> <20181019155919.EF8714E7D2@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > > > > > > They are just PS/2 keyboards, right? Or AT? The USB adapters for that are a > dime a dozen. I have 4 in my basement (the real PS/2 to USB, not the faux > ones that allowed dual-mode mice to connect to USB). > > Warner > The 3101 is not PS/2, pre-dates the IBM PC. If someone made an adapter it'd be unique to this class of terminal. May be like a DisplayWriter perhaps. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Oct 19 11:27:12 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 13:27:12 -0300 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: References: <1668d1bb687-1ec2-1180@webjas-vae115.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On 2018-10-19 1:19 p.m., Ethan via cctalk wrote: >> OK I? am sorry? I? do not? understand? why the keyboard? went? this high? >> Please... Please... someone? explain? >> Ed# > > Race for the loudest keyboard. Bragging rights of the rare? > > An Adlib card sold for $3100 a year ago or so. Friends were suspicious > that people were driving up the price of their own posession to try to > mark to market some of the retro stuff higher. Basically, create the > same speculation that housing has gone through recently like the > cryptocurrency people do. > > I don't get it. You can buy off the shelf clicky keyboards with RGB for > $150. > Or any dumpster, if you're a freak who doesn't need an RGB illuminated keyboard. > -- > : Ethan O'Toole > > From db at db.net Fri Oct 19 11:33:46 2018 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 12:33:46 -0400 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: <1668d1bb687-1ec2-1180@webjas-vae115.srv.aolmail.net> References: <5BC9FB17.90304@cimmeri.com> <1668d1bb687-1ec2-1180@webjas-vae115.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <20181019163346.GA38312@night.db.net> On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 12:14:56PM -0400, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > OK I? am sorry? I? do not? understand? why the keyboard? went? this high? > > ... > > cctalk wrote: > > Here is a great example of why the keyboards and terminals are getting > > separated > > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-3101-beam-spring-keyboard-purchased-new-in-1982/123422383512?hash=item1cbc8c1d98:g:sCkAAOSwfbhbwQvU Looks like they are being cut up in jewellery https://www.ebay.com/p/IBM-Beamspring-Keychain-Keyboard-Key-5251-3101-3278-3279-5120-Displaywriter/857868178 Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://artemis.db.net/~db From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Fri Oct 19 11:44:12 2018 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 12:44:12 -0400 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: <1668d1bb687-1ec2-1180@webjas-vae115.srv.aolmail.net> References: <5BC9FB17.90304@cimmeri.com> <1668d1bb687-1ec2-1180@webjas-vae115.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: Hi Ed, This particular keyboard uses beam spring key switches. These are considered ultra luxury old-school key switches with really good key caps. IBM spared no expense. The IBM 3101 is the thinnest beam spring keyboard and looks closest to the IBM Model M (sort of) in terms of keys. While the key caps don't match up, someone created a converter that makes these keyboards work via USB (replacing the controller board) which also maps out easily to a usable PC keyboard. It is likely to go higher. I have one of these keyboards that is in serious need of restoration but when I restore it I will acquire a 3101 terminal for it to mate with (as I have done with other keyboards and terminals). Hope this helps. Santo On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 12:15 PM ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > OK I am sorry I do not understand why the keyboard went this high? > > Please... Please... someone explain? > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 19 11:45:02 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 09:45:02 -0700 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: <5BC9FB17.90304@cimmeri.com> References: <5BC9FB17.90304@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <9377eee6-beba-5018-2463-f4672cedf94f@bitsavers.org> On 10/19/18 8:41 AM, js--- via cctalk wrote: > Why is the keyboard being sold alone, when the terminal is right there? Keyboard collectors. https://deskthority.net/ etc. Any 70's or 80's mechanical switch or hall-effect keyboard is going for big bucks now. This has been discussed here and on the VCF forum before. I am in the process of trying to draw out the schematics for the IBM Displaywriter, and it is impossible to find a 'reasonably priced' (as in less than $300 dollar) keyboard for the system I've pieced together. There are people making USB adapters for most of the old IBM mechanical keyboards now. I'm also working on documenting IBM CU 'Control Unit' (coax..) Terminals You can find terminals, but not keyboards. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 19 11:48:17 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 09:48:17 -0700 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: References: <1668d1bb687-1ec2-1180@webjas-vae115.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On 10/19/18 9:19 AM, Ethan via cctalk wrote: > I don't get it. You can buy off the shelf clicky keyboards with RGB for $150. The quality of modern keycaps is poor. These guys are after mechanical boards with double-shot keytops. If you do find modern double-shots, the fonts they use are crap. The kb I'm typing on cost me about $300 after having to buy replacement caps for almost the same price as the kb was. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 19 11:50:59 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 09:50:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: <1668d17e2e0-1ec3-10b9@webjas-vae050.srv.aolmail.net> References: <1668d17e2e0-1ec3-10b9@webjas-vae050.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Oct 2018, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > i used an adapter to usb?? and?? it?? would?? glitch?? and lock?? sometimes... ed# Why don't the fancy "Gamer" computers have a REAL keyboard port? Or, just leave the keyboard connected to whatever it originally came with. Place the "gamer" 48" monitor on top of that machine. Run some trivial software on that to output the keyboard data through the serial port, cabled down under the table to a Y2K Dell or generic dumpster computer, and output USB from that to the "gamer" computer, also under the table. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 19 11:52:59 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 09:52:59 -0700 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: References: <1668d17e2e0-1ec3-10b9@webjas-vae050.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <8dd9d196-d4dd-7a77-0577-546f6636ca14@bitsavers.org> On 10/19/18 9:50 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > leave the keyboard connected to whatever it originally came with. Very funny... They don't give a fsck about old junk, they just want the l33t kb From ethan at 757.org Fri Oct 19 11:53:35 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 12:53:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: References: <1668d1bb687-1ec2-1180@webjas-vae115.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: > The quality of modern keycaps is poor. > These guys are after mechanical boards with double-shot keytops. > If you do find modern double-shots, the fonts they use are crap. > The kb I'm typing on cost me about $300 after having to buy replacement caps > for almost the same price as the kb was. I had some Model M keyboards I got for free. Gave them away to kids at our hackerspace in Norfolk because I hated the feel of typing on them. They were all giddy. You can get the keyboard that has no print on the keycaps at all. Seems ideal! -- : Ethan O'Toole From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Oct 19 11:55:25 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 12:55:25 -0400 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: <9377eee6-beba-5018-2463-f4672cedf94f@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1668d40c65a-1ec4-1278@webjas-vae098.srv.aolmail.net> well i? have? some? clicky? keyboards and? ?yea? love the? ?feedback? clak? when I type? but the? ?usual off the rack? frys? ? usb? thing is? problematic? ? so? by thinner? bean? it? clacks? but? has? ?a lighter? motion? ? ? then? I have? this? ?ibm? clacky? keyboard? with? ?several rows? of? function? keys...? as? i? remember? ?2? or? 3? rows?? wonder what the hell it? was? used? for? ? Gave? my? wife and? Envey? hp all in? one? ?body? I? got? and? put? a? keyboard? with it? that? had? decals on the? keys...? she? was? not? happy...? seems? all keys? wear? off? now....?? ? In a message dated 10/19/2018 9:45:13 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? On 10/19/18 8:41 AM, js--- via cctalk wrote: > Why is the keyboard being sold alone, when the terminal is right there? Keyboard collectors. https://deskthority.net/ etc. Any 70's or 80's mechanical switch or hall-effect keyboard is going for big bucks now. This has been discussed here and on the VCF forum before. I am in the process of trying to draw out the schematics for the IBM Displaywriter, and it is impossible to find a 'reasonably priced' (as in less than $300 dollar) keyboard for the system I've pieced together. There are people making USB adapters for most of the old IBM mechanical keyboards now. I'm also working on documenting IBM CU 'Control Unit' (coax..) Terminals You can find terminals, but not keyboards. From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Oct 19 12:13:57 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 13:13:57 -0400 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1668d51c0e5-1ec1-1321@webjas-vae054.srv.aolmail.net> the? ps2? to? ?usb? adapters? ?do not? ?work? well? with? my? dell xps? go? fast? ?computer! In a message dated 10/19/2018 9:20:07 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? > > > > > > They are just PS/2 keyboards, right? Or AT? The USB adapters for that are a > dime a dozen. I have 4 in my basement (the real PS/2 to USB, not the faux > ones that allowed dual-mode mice to connect to USB). > > Warner > The 3101 is not PS/2, pre-dates the IBM PC. If someone made an adapter it'd be unique to this class of terminal. May be like a DisplayWriter perhaps. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 19 12:14:22 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 10:14:22 -0700 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3fe71ba1-6cc7-9ccf-034b-bfd0b75e9bb2@bitsavers.org> >> IBM developed a Token Ring card for the PC in time for its launch IBM's initial networking for the PC (The PC Network) was broadband, based on technology from Sytek. 4Mb token ring was released later. Exact dates are in the manuals on bitsavers. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/pc/pc_network/6322916_PC_Network_Technical_Reference_Sep84.pdf Another project (sigh..) has been to collect all the parts to put a Sytek network together. I'm looking for a 50/50 Central Retransmission Unit, though I do have the little brother to it that IBM sold for the PC Network. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/sytek/brochures/LocalNet_50_50_Central_Retransmission_Unit_Brochure_Sep82.pdf From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Fri Oct 19 12:18:50 2018 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 12:18:50 -0500 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <588CB08A-10DC-434F-8F25-142ADC891940@lunar-tokyo.net> > On Oct 19, 2018, at 10:34 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > Here is a great example of why the keyboards and terminals are getting > separated Keyboard fetishists are vermin; They are destructive and have no redeeming qualities, and should be treated as such. I had one of them spend the better part of an hour going on about how I had achieved ?the holy grail of collecting? by having more than one ?Space Cadet? keyboard, fawning about how superlatively perfect they?re supposed to be and everything else pales in comparison. They?re a status symbol in keyboard fetishist circles. According to him they auction north of $5000 for even non-working examples. I have no idea why. GNU Emacs can't use most of the ?special? keys - The Lisp Machine itself doesn't even use most of them - and control is in the same relative place as modern keyboards instead of being where the caps lock key is which was the "mostest hacker-est? thing last I heard. I think it?s just conspicuous consumption - Having one proves you?ve got the dosh to waste things other people must work hard for a chance to get. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 19 12:19:00 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 10:19:00 -0700 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: <04d101d467bf$e271cbb0$a7556310$@verizon.net> References: <04d101d467bf$e271cbb0$a7556310$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <32cf2e38-c3ab-1589-bdae-2bc0dadc174b@bitsavers.org> On 10/19/18 8:24 AM, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: > Fred, > > Have you ever seen any actual "Kentucky Fried Computers" anything? > Ads? Marketing lit? Hardware? Letterhead? Incorporation application? There is something in the Jim Warren West Coast Computer Faire correspondence we have http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102739208 I'd have to pull it to see what is there. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 19 12:23:14 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 10:23:14 -0700 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: <1668d40c65a-1ec4-1278@webjas-vae098.srv.aolmail.net> References: <1668d40c65a-1ec4-1278@webjas-vae098.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <2bf5c681-169b-7566-d3bd-f3187b18b699@sydex.com> On 10/19/18 9:55 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > well i? have? some? clicky? keyboards and? ?yea? love the? ?feedback? clak? when I type? but the? ?usual off the rack? frys? ? usb? thing is? problematic? I've got a bunch of Model Ms scattered around here. I remember when Surplus Software in Portland was selling the new surplus ones for something like $15 each. Personally, having learned to touch-type on a manual typewriter, I prefer the clickety sound. IBM Wheelwriter typewriters used to drive me nuts due to the out-of-sync sound of the type hammer and the keypress. Those who learned to touch-type in the post-Selectric era probably don't have the problem. So, at least I have an excuse. The model Ms work fine for me--I use one of the PCPlay-based USB keyboard+mouse adapters. But then, I'm not a gamer... --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Oct 19 12:39:44 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 13:39:44 -0400 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: <3fe71ba1-6cc7-9ccf-034b-bfd0b75e9bb2@bitsavers.org> References: <3fe71ba1-6cc7-9ccf-034b-bfd0b75e9bb2@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <948B08A1-EC88-4B96-8F58-B2824FBF635E@comcast.net> > On Oct 19, 2018, at 1:14 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > > >>> IBM developed a Token Ring card for the PC in time for its launch > > IBM's initial networking for the PC (The PC Network) was broadband, based > on technology from Sytek. 4Mb token ring was released later. Exact dates > are in the manuals on bitsavers. > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/pc/pc_network/6322916_PC_Network_Technical_Reference_Sep84.pdf That's basically Ethernet except very slow (2 Mb/s, even slower than "Experimental Ethernet"). But it's described as CSMA/CD, and it uses the much-cursed Intel 82586 Ethernet chip. Token ring ended up a failure because it was slow and completely incompatible with other 802 networks, from the backward addresses to the bizarre pseudo-multicast scheme to the source routing bridges. In spite of IBM marketing claims, 802.5 data link layer is not a well behaved design. Later token rings, like FDDI, used the 802.4 token passing algorithm ("Timed token"), avoiding the 802.5 algorithms completely. paul From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 19 12:44:55 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 10:44:55 -0700 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: <948B08A1-EC88-4B96-8F58-B2824FBF635E@comcast.net> References: <3fe71ba1-6cc7-9ccf-034b-bfd0b75e9bb2@bitsavers.org> <948B08A1-EC88-4B96-8F58-B2824FBF635E@comcast.net> Message-ID: <76916e1b-3ca3-67d7-4319-11b4d39b09de@bitsavers.org> On 10/19/18 10:39 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > In spite of IBM marketing claims, 802.5 data link layer is not a well behaved design. Apple had to re-design their TR Nubus card, which used the TI chipset, and switch to IBM's because it couldn't be made to work reliably. From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Oct 19 13:03:14 2018 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 14:03:14 -0400 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: <32cf2e38-c3ab-1589-bdae-2bc0dadc174b@bitsavers.org> References: <04d101d467bf$e271cbb0$a7556310$@verizon.net> <32cf2e38-c3ab-1589-bdae-2bc0dadc174b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <04f001d467d6$023188d0$06949a70$@verizon.net> I'd love to see it if you get the chance. Thanks, Bill S. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow via cctalk Sent: Friday, October 19, 2018 1:19 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Microsoft-Paul Allen On 10/19/18 8:24 AM, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: > Fred, > > Have you ever seen any actual "Kentucky Fried Computers" anything? > Ads? Marketing lit? Hardware? Letterhead? Incorporation application? There is something in the Jim Warren West Coast Computer Faire correspondence we have http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102739208 I'd have to pull it to see what is there. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 19 13:05:19 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 11:05:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: <04d101d467bf$e271cbb0$a7556310$@verizon.net> References: <04d101d467bf$e271cbb0$a7556310$@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Oct 2018, William Sudbrink wrote: > Fred, > Have you ever seen any actual "Kentucky Fried Computers" anything? > Ads? Marketing lit? Hardware? Letterhead? Incorporation application? > I've looked in the past and have never turned up anything. http://www.digibarn.com/collections/newsletters/homebrew/V2_06/Homebrew_CC_Jun76.pdf "Greenberg, Mark; Charles Grant (February 1977). "Kentucky Fried Computers advertisement". BYTE. 2 (2): pg 103. Slogan: "A Computer in Every Pot" Address was 2465 Fourth Street, Berkeley, CA 94710" https://archive.org/details/byte-magazine-1977-02/page/n103 upper right hand corner quarter page ad Hmmmm. where to find "Google streets" of 2465 4th street (east side of street, near Dwight Way) from 40 years ago?, . . . 10 years ago, when I was looking for pictures and memorabilia from those days, a friend of mine said that he thought that he remembered them having a small sign on the front of the building; but he's dead, and his collection of pictures of interest of Berkeley and Albany was dumpstered immediately after his death. Now, there is a biodiesel place and some maildrops there. Hmmm. Maybe, if you contacted KFC and asked their IP lawyers for details and anecdotes for how they have protected their trademark?, . . . From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Oct 19 13:11:10 2018 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 14:11:10 -0400 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <04d101d467bf$e271cbb0$a7556310$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <051b01d467d7$1d9a2d60$58ce8820$@verizon.net> Excellent! Thanks very much! Bill S. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin via cctalk Sent: Friday, October 19, 2018 2:05 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Microsoft-Paul Allen On Fri, 19 Oct 2018, William Sudbrink wrote: > Fred, > Have you ever seen any actual "Kentucky Fried Computers" anything? > Ads? Marketing lit? Hardware? Letterhead? Incorporation application? > I've looked in the past and have never turned up anything. http://www.digibarn.com/collections/newsletters/homebrew/V2_06/Homebrew_CC_J un76.pdf "Greenberg, Mark; Charles Grant (February 1977). "Kentucky Fried Computers advertisement". BYTE. 2 (2): pg 103. Slogan: "A Computer in Every Pot" Address was 2465 Fourth Street, Berkeley, CA 94710" https://archive.org/details/byte-magazine-1977-02/page/n103 upper right hand corner quarter page ad Hmmmm. where to find "Google streets" of 2465 4th street (east side of street, near Dwight Way) from 40 years ago?, . . . 10 years ago, when I was looking for pictures and memorabilia from those days, a friend of mine said that he thought that he remembered them having a small sign on the front of the building; but he's dead, and his collection of pictures of interest of Berkeley and Albany was dumpstered immediately after his death. Now, there is a biodiesel place and some maildrops there. Hmmm. Maybe, if you contacted KFC and asked their IP lawyers for details and anecdotes for how they have protected their trademark?, . . . --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From allisonportable at gmail.com Fri Oct 19 13:14:22 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 14:14:22 -0400 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: <2bf5c681-169b-7566-d3bd-f3187b18b699@sydex.com> References: <1668d40c65a-1ec4-1278@webjas-vae098.srv.aolmail.net> <2bf5c681-169b-7566-d3bd-f3187b18b699@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 10/19/2018 01:23 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 10/19/18 9:55 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: >> well i? have? some? clicky? keyboards and? ?yea? love the? ?feedback? clak? when I type? but the? ?usual off the rack? frys? ? usb? thing is? problematic? > I've got a bunch of Model Ms scattered around here. I remember when > Surplus Software in Portland was selling the new surplus ones for > something like $15 each. > > Personally, having learned to touch-type on a manual typewriter, I > prefer the clickety sound. IBM Wheelwriter typewriters used to drive me > nuts due to the out-of-sync sound of the type hammer and the keypress. > > Those who learned to touch-type in the post-Selectric era probably don't > have the problem. > > So, at least I have an excuse. The model Ms work fine for me--I use one > of the PCPlay-based USB keyboard+mouse adapters. But then, I'm not a > gamer... > > --Chuck > > Me I had M keyboards in the day, thought they sucked!? Vt100 and VT220 early version were my measure.? None of them made me type better! For the last decade plus I've used the aluminum large and small USB keyboard from Apple on the various Linux boxes.? My only gripe is they are not double shot keys so the letters wear off after about? 5-6 years. ? Why did I buy it?? Reliable, coffee resistant,? the only thing that counts. As to keyboard fetish fans... Seriously??? If I'd do anything I want that brass and wood steampunk piece of art like used in Werehouse 13,? least then I feel I got something unusual and attractive. Allison From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 19 13:15:40 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 14:15:40 -0400 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 11:34 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Here is a great example of why the keyboards and terminals are getting > separated > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-3101-beam-spring-keyboard-purchased-new-in-1982/123422383512?hash=item1cbc8c1d98:g:sCkAAOSwfbhbwQvU > > Note the price $2000 so far. Woof! I have a complete, working IBM 3101 terminal (got it from a former co-worker who used to use it to work from home at CompuServe) and it's tempting to sell just the keyboard. -ethan From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Oct 19 13:15:10 2018 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 14:15:10 -0400 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <04d101d467bf$e271cbb0$a7556310$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <051c01d467d7$acd02a20$06707e60$@verizon.net> Hmmm... so they were only "Kentucky Fried Computers" while they were reselling other (IMSAI, etc.) brands? You will never see a Northstar Horizon like case with a "Kentucky Fried Computers" badge on it? Bill -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin via cctalk Sent: Friday, October 19, 2018 2:05 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Microsoft-Paul Allen On Fri, 19 Oct 2018, William Sudbrink wrote: > Fred, > Have you ever seen any actual "Kentucky Fried Computers" anything? > Ads? Marketing lit? Hardware? Letterhead? Incorporation application? > I've looked in the past and have never turned up anything. http://www.digibarn.com/collections/newsletters/homebrew/V2_06/Homebrew_CC_J un76.pdf "Greenberg, Mark; Charles Grant (February 1977). "Kentucky Fried Computers advertisement". BYTE. 2 (2): pg 103. Slogan: "A Computer in Every Pot" Address was 2465 Fourth Street, Berkeley, CA 94710" https://archive.org/details/byte-magazine-1977-02/page/n103 upper right hand corner quarter page ad Hmmmm. where to find "Google streets" of 2465 4th street (east side of street, near Dwight Way) from 40 years ago?, . . . 10 years ago, when I was looking for pictures and memorabilia from those days, a friend of mine said that he thought that he remembered them having a small sign on the front of the building; but he's dead, and his collection of pictures of interest of Berkeley and Albany was dumpstered immediately after his death. Now, there is a biodiesel place and some maildrops there. Hmmm. Maybe, if you contacted KFC and asked their IP lawyers for details and anecdotes for how they have protected their trademark?, . . . --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Oct 19 13:19:08 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 11:19:08 -0700 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: <1668d51c0e5-1ec1-1321@webjas-vae054.srv.aolmail.net> References: <1668d51c0e5-1ec1-1321@webjas-vae054.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 10:25 AM ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > the ps2 to usb adapters do not work well with my dell xps > go fast computer! > That would explain all the extra spaces... - Josh From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Oct 19 13:21:05 2018 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 14:21:05 -0400 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: <051c01d467d7$acd02a20$06707e60$@verizon.net> References: <04d101d467bf$e271cbb0$a7556310$@verizon.net> <051c01d467d7$acd02a20$06707e60$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <051d01d467d8$80b242b0$8216c810$@verizon.net> Wait! It gets stranger. I just squinted hard at that Byte Mag ad. "Kentucky Fried Computers" is offering a "North Star Computers-FP8 & disk"??? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Sudbrink via cctalk Sent: Friday, October 19, 2018 2:15 PM To: 'Fred Cisin'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Microsoft-Paul Allen Hmmm... so they were only "Kentucky Fried Computers" while they were reselling other (IMSAI, etc.) brands? You will never see a Northstar Horizon like case with a "Kentucky Fried Computers" badge on it? Bill -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin via cctalk Sent: Friday, October 19, 2018 2:05 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Microsoft-Paul Allen On Fri, 19 Oct 2018, William Sudbrink wrote: > Fred, > Have you ever seen any actual "Kentucky Fried Computers" anything? > Ads? Marketing lit? Hardware? Letterhead? Incorporation application? > I've looked in the past and have never turned up anything. http://www.digibarn.com/collections/newsletters/homebrew/V2_06/Homebrew_CC_J un76.pdf "Greenberg, Mark; Charles Grant (February 1977). "Kentucky Fried Computers advertisement". BYTE. 2 (2): pg 103. Slogan: "A Computer in Every Pot" Address was 2465 Fourth Street, Berkeley, CA 94710" https://archive.org/details/byte-magazine-1977-02/page/n103 upper right hand corner quarter page ad Hmmmm. where to find "Google streets" of 2465 4th street (east side of street, near Dwight Way) from 40 years ago?, . . . 10 years ago, when I was looking for pictures and memorabilia from those days, a friend of mine said that he thought that he remembered them having a small sign on the front of the building; but he's dead, and his collection of pictures of interest of Berkeley and Albany was dumpstered immediately after his death. Now, there is a biodiesel place and some maildrops there. Hmmm. Maybe, if you contacted KFC and asked their IP lawyers for details and anecdotes for how they have protected their trademark?, . . . --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 19 13:43:11 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 11:43:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: <051d01d467d8$80b242b0$8216c810$@verizon.net> References: <04d101d467bf$e271cbb0$a7556310$@verizon.net> <051c01d467d7$acd02a20$06707e60$@verizon.net> <051d01d467d8$80b242b0$8216c810$@verizon.net> Message-ID: > > https://archive.org/details/byte-magazine-1977-02/page/n103 On Fri, 19 Oct 2018, William Sudbrink wrote: > Wait! It gets stranger. I just squinted hard at that Byte Mag ad. > "Kentucky Fried Computers" is offering a "North Star Computers-FP8 & > disk"??? KFC seemed to have been mostly their STORE, and when they really got going with products, they started the North Star brandname? Similarly, you will see "Morrow's Micro Stuff for Thinker Toys". Continuing the parallel, "Thinker Toys" as a name was killed by CBS as being too close to their "Tinker Toys" trademark. Morrow was at 1201 Tenth Street, which is/was a MUCH better neighborhood. (only one block below San Pablo Avenue, and one block south of Albany (more upscale), with every block north or east being higher-end neighborhood) Although Fantasy Junction used to have some space near KFC. And, of course, everybody moved from Berkeley to San Leandro when they expanded, for the more industry friendly guvmint. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ethan at 757.org Fri Oct 19 13:52:47 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 14:52:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Woof! I have a complete, working IBM 3101 terminal (got it from a > former co-worker who used to use it to work from home at CompuServe) > and it's tempting to sell just the keyboard. > -ethan Just use an arduino to make an adapter so you can use a USB keyboard with the 3101 terminal. If you used a clicky non-poured keycap RGB one you might be able to make it change colors when it beeps. -- : Ethan O'Toole From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Oct 19 14:01:44 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 13:01:44 -0600 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: References: <1668d51c0e5-1ec1-1321@webjas-vae054.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <8bc15dce-8eb8-5d3a-3e44-e7dd56f5f4e6@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/19/2018 12:19 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 10:25 AM ED SHARPE via cctalk > wrote: > >> the ps2 to usb adapters do not work well with my dell xps >> go fast computer! >> > > That would explain all the extra spaces... > > - Josh > I wonder how many letters got deleated while the mail program's input got lost as the fast computer popup windows kept popping up. Is just me, but is keyboad input geting slower and slower on web stuff, even the old 110 buad tty gave better response running under a PDP/8. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 19 14:14:46 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 12:14:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: <8bc15dce-8eb8-5d3a-3e44-e7dd56f5f4e6@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <1668d51c0e5-1ec1-1321@webjas-vae054.srv.aolmail.net> <8bc15dce-8eb8-5d3a-3e44-e7dd56f5f4e6@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: >>> the ps2 to usb adapters do not work well with my dell xps >>> go fast computer! >> That would explain all the extra spaces... On Fri, 19 Oct 2018, ben via cctalk wrote: > I wonder how many letters got deleated while the mail program's input got > lost as the fast computer popup windows kept popping up. > Is just me, but is keyboad input geting slower and slower on web stuff, > even the old 110 buad tty gave better response running under a PDP/8. Computer Software Boyle's Law: extraneous actions, features, ads, etc. will expand to fill all available space and speed resources. For example: Operating system distribution requires a double layer DVD, instead of a single sided 5.25" floppy. When you want to type a shopping list, is it quicker on the new machine? (How long from power cycle on the amazingly fast Dell XPS before Office gives you a blank document screen?) Does a shopping list need to have PICTURES of eggs? 10 years ago, at the college, a memo announcing a room or time change for a meeting was done on Word, printed in color, scanned, and attached to an email. (I'm not sure WHY, but how else to get a horizontal rule that was offset by a couple of pixels from one end to the other?) I wonder whether they have now switched from the same half dozen words now being done with video and sound? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 19 14:16:04 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 12:16:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: <051d01d467d8$80b242b0$8216c810$@verizon.net> References: <04d101d467bf$e271cbb0$a7556310$@verizon.net> <051c01d467d7$acd02a20$06707e60$@verizon.net> <051d01d467d8$80b242b0$8216c810$@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Oct 2018, William Sudbrink wrote: > Hmmm... so they were only "Kentucky Fried Computers" while they were > reselling other (IMSAI, etc.) brands? > You will never see a Northstar Horizon like case with a "Kentucky Fried > Computers" badge on it? Probably not. UNLESS, . . . their earliest products? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Oct 19 14:39:26 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 13:39:26 -0600 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <04d101d467bf$e271cbb0$a7556310$@verizon.net> <051c01d467d7$acd02a20$06707e60$@verizon.net> <051d01d467d8$80b242b0$8216c810$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <416fb04c-4731-c640-29fb-9821b1391c85@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/19/2018 1:16 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 19 Oct 2018, William Sudbrink wrote: >> Hmmm... so they were only "Kentucky Fried Computers" while they were >> reselling other (IMSAI, etc.) brands? >> You will never see a Northstar Horizon like case with a "Kentucky Fried >> Computers" badge on it? > > Probably not. > UNLESS, . . . > their earliest products? > I picked up a used BOOX N96 e-reader on ebay, and it is being shipped from Kentucky, does that count? :) Ben. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 19 14:44:52 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 12:44:52 -0700 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: References: <1668d40c65a-1ec4-1278@webjas-vae098.srv.aolmail.net> <2bf5c681-169b-7566-d3bd-f3187b18b699@sydex.com> Message-ID: <526278bd-f3dd-74b6-af41-8d3817ddf4bc@sydex.com> On 10/19/18 11:14 AM, allison via cctalk wrote: > On 10/19/2018 01:23 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > Me I had M keyboards in the day, thought they sucked!? Vt100 and VT220 > early version > were my measure.? None of them made me type better! I will confess to a fondness for my old NCR Cherry-switch equipped keyboards. Nice layout, but eventually the need for F11 and F12 keys drove me back to the Model Ms. (The NCR has F-keys up to 30 with F1-F10 where god intended, along the left side, but the F11-F30 just duplicate the F1-f10 with Shift and Control added.). One of these days I'll pull one out and hack the EPROMs in it to give me real F11 and F12. Double-shot keys there also. I wonder if double-shot are all that, really. I've got several dye-sub keyboards and they don't seem to show much wear on the keys. But then, I type like I play the piano--fingers don't really touch the keys until one gets pressed. --Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Oct 19 15:17:28 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 14:17:28 -0600 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 1:51 AM Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: > long before the Color Graphics Adapters were > available, about six months after launch, and the CGAs were only > produced in response to the completely unanticipated demand for the > PC. > Are you certain? My then boss* and I went to a Computerland store in Denver** on August 12, 1981, to pick up a PC that he had preordered***. My (possibly faulty) recollection was that they had both MDA and CGA adapters on that day, though they might not have had the CGA monitor in stock. Our purchase included a PC configured with keyboard, 64KB of RAM, a memory expansion board with another 64KB of RAM, a floppy controller, one 160K floppy drive, a serial card, an MDA card, an MDA monitor, and (not installed) a CGA card, and IBM DOS 1.0. We used the CGA card with an NEC RGB monitor, and not all of the colors were correct. The NEC monitor wasn't designed for the PC, and I don't think it had an intensity signal at all, so we only got eight colors rather than 16. IIRC, yellow was brown, or perhaps vice versa, due to an oddity of how IBM encoded a particular combination of the RGBI signals. The software and documentation included CGA support from day one, so it definitely was not an afterthought. In addition to IBM DOS 1.0, we very quickly got a prerelease version of QNX****, and that was the first time I actually used a Unix-like operating system. Eric * Jim Lauletta, founder of Apparat Inc, best known for TRS-80 products including NewDOS/80 ** on South University Boulevard somewhere near Evans Avenue, I think *** despite that being technically impossible since the PC didn't officially exist prior to that date; there weren't supposed to be any preorders, but yet somehow there were **** QNX wasn't officially released for the PC until some time in 1982 From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Oct 19 15:32:30 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 16:32:30 -0400 Subject: Scan of Micro Peripherals Inc MPI 91/92 Product Manual Avail? In-Reply-To: References: <36dcfd2b-5eaf-1b39-6151-646748176069@jwsss.com> <668e456f-bbf3-5f85-6d4a-2f6d5587ba64@bitsavers.org> <7af73298-68f2-4ce1-962e-e68d65dae2c6@sydex.com> Message-ID: just an update, I have not forgotten this task, I just need to find time to get to a two-sided printer. I really need to get one for my self with big copy bay to handle schematics. That would really accelerate my archive work b On Sat, Oct 6, 2018 at 1:55 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > One last tidbit on the Micropolis floppy drives--the early drives (1014, > etc.) used a body/chassis made of steel plate. The later drives (1115) > used cast body parts. > > It's also worth observing that the leadscrew positioner is probably the > best, as it's the dominant technology in 135 tpi 3.5" drives. > > --Chuck > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Oct 19 15:53:05 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 20:53:05 +0000 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: <3fe71ba1-6cc7-9ccf-034b-bfd0b75e9bb2@bitsavers.org> References: <3fe71ba1-6cc7-9ccf-034b-bfd0b75e9bb2@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 10/19/18 1:14 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > >>> IBM developed a Token Ring card for the PC in time for its launch > IBM's initial networking for the PC (The PC Network) was broadband, based > on technology from Sytek. 4Mb token ring was released later. Exact dates > are in the manuals on bitsavers. > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/pc/pc_network/6322916_PC_Network_Technical_Reference_Sep84.pdf > > Another project (sigh..) has been to collect all the parts to put a Sytek > network together. I used to have a bunch of Sytek gear, including a StatMon.? I once wrote a program in C on a 3B2 to collect, display and analyze the data from the StatMon.? I also, working with a good friend who now teaches at Texas A&M (unless he finally retired!) helped write a program to function as a DNS for a Sytek Network.? Delivered a paper on it at the Sytek Users Group Conference at NTSU in Denton, TX.? Good luck getting it running.? Hope you know a lot about broadband networks because it ain't as easy as cable TV. :-)? I even used to have a portable cable plant for explaining it to potential customers. Those were the days.? Sigh.... > > I'm looking for a 50/50 Central Retransmission Unit, though I do have the > little brother to it that IBM sold for the PC Network. > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/sytek/brochures/LocalNet_50_50_Central_Retransmission_Unit_Brochure_Sep82.pdf bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Oct 19 15:54:58 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 20:54:58 +0000 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: <588CB08A-10DC-434F-8F25-142ADC891940@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <588CB08A-10DC-434F-8F25-142ADC891940@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: On 10/19/18 1:18 PM, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk wrote: >> On Oct 19, 2018, at 10:34 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >> >> Here is a great example of why the keyboards and terminals are getting >> separated > > Keyboard fetishists are vermin; They are destructive and have no redeeming qualities, and should be treated as such. > > I had one of them spend the better part of an hour going on about how I had achieved ?the holy grail of collecting? by having more than one ?Space Cadet? keyboard, fawning about how superlatively perfect they?re supposed to be and everything else pales in comparison. They?re a status symbol in keyboard fetishist circles. According to him they auction north of $5000 for even non-working examples. I have no idea why. GNU Emacs can't use most of the ?special? keys - The Lisp Machine itself doesn't even use most of them - and control is in the same relative place as modern keyboards instead of being where the caps lock key is which was the "mostest hacker-est? thing last I heard. I think it?s just conspicuous consumption - Having one proves you?ve got the dosh to waste things other people must work hard for a chance to get. > So, are you telling me I shouldn't have thrown out all those old keyboards whether they worked or not?? All I have now are a lot of DEC keyboards/ bill From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 19 15:56:54 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 13:56:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> long before the Color Graphics Adapters were >> available, about six months after launch, and the CGAs were only >> produced in response to the completely unanticipated demand for the >> PC. On Fri, 19 Oct 2018, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > Are you certain? My then boss* and I went to a Computerland store in > Denver** on August 12, 1981, to pick up a PC that he had preordered***. My > (possibly faulty) recollection was that they had both MDA and CGA adapters > on that day, though they might not have had the CGA monitor in stock. > Our purchase included a PC configured with keyboard, 64KB of RAM, a memory > expansion board with another 64KB of RAM, a floppy controller, one 160K > floppy drive, a serial card, an MDA card, an MDA monitor, and (not > installed) a CGA card, and IBM DOS 1.0. We used the CGA card with an NEC > RGB monitor, and not all of the colors were correct. The NEC monitor wasn't > designed for the PC, and I don't think it had an intensity signal at all, > so we only got eight colors rather than 16. IIRC, yellow was brown, or > perhaps vice versa, due to an oddity of how IBM encoded a particular > combination of the RGBI signals. > The software and documentation included CGA support from day one, so it > definitely was not an afterthought. > In addition to IBM DOS 1.0, we very quickly got a prerelease version of > QNX****, and that was the first time I actually used a Unix-like operating > system. My experience was similar. I got the technical Reference Manual immediately. I then had to wait a few months to get a computer. But, there was no apparent shortage of boards or accessories. I got a PC, with keyboard, 16K of RAM, Floppy Disk controller, async card, PC-DOS 1.00, and CGA board. Since the parts were same/compatible with TRS80 ones, which were cheaper, I put in my own RAM, Tandon TM100-1s, and used a [CCTV] composite monitor. I soon got a 192K (ECC!) RAM card (Boulder Creek?), and serial and parallel cards. Much (10 years?) later, I got a deal on some surplus Wyse 700 video displays. (1280x800?) There was apparently some perception among some users that MDA was for "serious"/business use, and CGA for games. Many of those same users then complained about lack of [graphic-oriented??] games for MDA. Soon, there were efforts to provide rationalizations why graphics were "essential" for business use. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Oct 19 16:46:00 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 17:46:00 -0400 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1668e4ad517-1ec4-1b47@webjas-vac037.srv.aolmail.net> i need? decmate 2? colored? keyboard? ?for? wordprocessing wps8? thanks? ?ed ? ? In a message dated 10/19/2018 1:55:05 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? On 10/19/18 1:18 PM, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk wrote: >> On Oct 19, 2018, at 10:34 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >> >> Here is a great example of why the keyboards and terminals are getting >> separated > > Keyboard fetishists are vermin; They are destructive and have no redeeming qualities, and should be treated as such. > > I had one of them spend the better part of an hour going on about how I had achieved ?the holy grail of collecting? by having more than one ?Space Cadet? keyboard, fawning about how superlatively perfect they?re supposed to be and everything else pales in comparison. They?re a status symbol in keyboard fetishist circles. According to him they auction north of $5000 for even non-working examples. I have no idea why. GNU Emacs can't use most of the ?special? keys - The Lisp Machine itself doesn't even use most of them - and control is in the same relative place as modern keyboards instead of being where the caps lock key is which was the "mostest hacker-est? thing last I heard. I think it?s just conspicuous consumption - Having one proves you?ve got the dosh to waste things other people must work hard for a chance to get. > So, are you telling me I shouldn't have thrown out all those old keyboards whether they worked or not?? All I have now are a lot of DEC keyboards/ bill From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Oct 19 17:34:22 2018 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 18:34:22 -0400 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: References: <588CB08A-10DC-434F-8F25-142ADC891940@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: <7388BB57D9E74B1FA158C1774A5E1BDF@teoPC> Anybody else notice that all the buyers for that keyboard on ebay are under 10 feedback? The only Digital keyboards I have are a pair of LK411-AA that go with my VT-525's. The recycler kept a stack of VT-525s for a while but the stack of LK411 that went with them got their cords cut and chucked into the plastic pile the day after they arrived (luckily I snagged a pair before then). I have a small hoard of IBM model M's purchased from a recycler years ago for a few bucks each. I use one on my main rig (has PS/2 adapter connected to a Belkin SOHO 4 port KVM), same setup in the basement. I would dig though the incoming pallets looking for the IBM keyboards and passing on the Unicomp ones. Used to use a Northgate Omnikey 102 but the layout difference between the Model M (which I used in multiple places) made me retire it. My other Northgate is connected to an Amiga 2000. My first use of a terminal keyboard was in college (IBM terminals connected to a mainframe for Fortran programming) and I loved those keyboards. They are kind of hard to find locally (I do have an IBM 1390702 missing a PF keycap and its cable plus a small chunk on plastic in the rear) and a shitty Unicomp model DCI0952 that is complete with a PS/2 cable. I think you need to pay a decent amount of money for a good clicky USB keyboard these days (most like a gamer style keyboard). Everything else is kind of mushy cheap crap. So I can see somebody who does a lot of typing wanting a vintage keyboard with a good feel to it. Since I have enough Model M's to last a lifetime I don't see paying $150+ for a new keyboard. Not that many people need a terminal these days, so the terminal either gets trashed or at least somebody saves the keyboard. I know collectors will bitch about that but what can you do? A $1000 keyboard will make a scrappers year, same keyboard connected to a CRT screen might get $100 and be a pain to ship. -----Original Message----- From: Bill Gunshannon via cctalk Sent: Friday, October 19, 2018 4:54 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Selling keyboards without the terminal On 10/19/18 1:18 PM, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk wrote: >> On Oct 19, 2018, at 10:34 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> Here is a great example of why the keyboards and terminals are getting >> separated > > Keyboard fetishists are vermin; They are destructive and have no redeeming > qualities, and should be treated as such. > > I had one of them spend the better part of an hour going on about how I > had achieved ?the holy grail of collecting? by having more than one ?Space > Cadet? keyboard, fawning about how superlatively perfect they?re supposed > to be and everything else pales in comparison. They?re a status symbol in > keyboard fetishist circles. According to him they auction north of $5000 > for even non-working examples. I have no idea why. GNU Emacs can't use > most of the ?special? keys - The Lisp Machine itself doesn't even use most > of them - and control is in the same relative place as modern keyboards > instead of being where the caps lock key is which was the "mostest > hacker-est? thing last I heard. I think it?s just conspicuous > consumption - Having one proves you?ve got the dosh to waste things other > people must work hard for a chance to get. > So, are you telling me I shouldn't have thrown out all those old keyboards whether they worked or not? All I have now are a lot of DEC keyboards/ bill --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From phb.hfx at gmail.com Fri Oct 19 19:22:07 2018 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 21:22:07 -0300 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <32a66c05-01ca-d1bc-8f56-5ee044176757@gmail.com> On 2018-10-19 5:17 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 1:51 AM Jim Manley via cctalk > wrote: > >> long before the Color Graphics Adapters were >> available, about six months after launch, and the CGAs were only >> produced in response to the completely unanticipated demand for the >> PC. >> > Are you certain? My then boss* and I went to a Computerland store in > Denver** on August 12, 1981, to pick up a PC that he had preordered***. My > (possibly faulty) recollection was that they had both MDA and CGA adapters > on that day, though they might not have had the CGA monitor in stock. > > I recall the day PC was announce or shortly a letter was sent to all the employees outlining an employee purchase plan.? The CGA adapter was certainly part of the initial offering as I ordered one almost immediately including a CGA adapter since with it I would not have to buy a monitor right away.? I received it less than 6 months later complete with a CGA adapter.? The biggest reason it took a few months to get it is the employee response was huge but only a percentage of the production was was allocated to employee sales. Paul From phb.hfx at gmail.com Fri Oct 19 19:32:54 2018 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 21:32:54 -0300 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3dcef781-38c4-74a9-7473-23820da8e45b@gmail.com> On 2018-10-19 3:15 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 11:34 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk > wrote: >> Here is a great example of why the keyboards and terminals are getting >> separated >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-3101-beam-spring-keyboard-purchased-new-in-1982/123422383512?hash=item1cbc8c1d98:g:sCkAAOSwfbhbwQvU >> >> Note the price $2000 so far. > Woof! I have a complete, working IBM 3101 terminal (got it from a > former co-worker who used to use it to work from home at CompuServe) > and it's tempting to sell just the keyboard. > > -ethan Even though the feel of the "beam-spring" keyboards is nice and they make a pleasant sound they are not the most reliable keyboard. Since they are capacitive keyboards they are very sensitive to contamination, and one of the flat metal springs in the key module flexes back and forth each time the key is depressed which leads to it fatiguing and breaking.? I am sure the only source of replacement key modules now would be to take them from another keyboard.? When I was servicing a lot of terminals that used that keyboard technology I used to keep half a dozen in my trunk all the time. The design as used in the original PC keyboard was mechanically more durable but since it was still a capacitive keyboard, it was still very sensitive to contamination. Paul. From jim.manley at gmail.com Sat Oct 20 02:45:17 2018 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 01:45:17 -0600 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: <04f001d467d6$023188d0$06949a70$@verizon.net> References: <04d101d467bf$e271cbb0$a7556310$@verizon.net> <32cf2e38-c3ab-1589-bdae-2bc0dadc174b@bitsavers.org> <04f001d467d6$023188d0$06949a70$@verizon.net> Message-ID: Just to be clear, it wasn't that the CGA hadn't been designed and put into production by the launch of the PC, the demand for the CGA was simply overwhelming compared with the much lower demand and relatively greater supply of the MDA. Plus, IBM had no experience selling into retail, let alone non-business consumer channels, which had come to expect "high-resolution" color graphics built into a system (e.g., on the Apple ][ motherboard). There were all sorts of distribution mismatches for the PC where various package combinations were offered through various channels that had no relation to reality, demand-wise. They offered employee discounts thinking that the PC would need to be promoted from as many directions as possible, not realizing what kind of tiger they had by the tail. Its suppliers suddenly had to start a world-wide scramble just to meet the sudden increased demand for resistors, let alone color graphics video ICs. IBM wasn't even aware of the penetration of dial-up among consumers and very small businesses, or they would have initially offered modems, at least as options, if not in package combos. Retailers who understood the consumer and very small business markets quickly began offering modems in response to the vacuum that IBM had created. Another sign that IBM wasn't confident about the longevity of the PC is that they outsourced the development of its OS to Microsoft, believing that Microsoft owned CP/M because of an Apple ][ compatible product described in the next paragraph. A small business to IBM was much larger than the sizes of businesses that Apple was typically serving at that time. Many are unaware that the largest fraction of CP/M licenses ever sold were for the Microsoft Softcard for the Apple ][ (about 300,000 sold, all told), not S-100 systems (somewhere around 150,000 systems built by hobbyists, or sold by small manufacturers). The Softcard was a Z-80 based single-board computer that plugged into an Apple ][ slot, equipped with its own 80x24 character x line black-and-white video output, RAM, etc., and that shared Apple ][ electrical power and floppy disk drives. The Softcard was Microsoft's first really successful product, responsible for its first tens of millions of dollars in revenue and profits. The Softcard was developed by Seattle Computer Products, the same two-man company in a Seattle garage that later sold its prototype 8086/8088 OS to Microsoft for $50,000. Microsoft turned around within a day and sold it to IBM via a _non-exclusive_ license (a critical factor that allowed them to field MS-DOS, their self-branded version of IBM's PC-DOS), for $3 million _plus_ about $50 per computer sold with PC-DOS. That model, updated for Windows, is the cash cow that's still printing profits for Microsoft to this day. From qsecofr at qseco.fr Fri Oct 19 11:27:55 2018 From: qsecofr at qseco.fr (Yvan Janssens) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 17:27:55 +0100 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: References: <5BC9FB17.90304@cimmeri.com> <20181019155919.EF8714E7D2@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: So, I have built a USB adapter for my 5150?s keyboard. The experience is actually quite bad, as stated earlier. The main reason why I still use it is because I took it with me from Belgium - it?s a French keyboard, and having access to all the special characters makes typing in eg. French, German or Spanish so much easier in the odd cases I have to. For my main daily driver I just use a Unicomp PC5250. Like others said, new keyboards based on the original mechanisms perform so much better. I spend a lot of my work in 5250 sessions, and I also play MMOs, so having a keyboard which doesn?t have to do almost-matching translations make sense. Some people just have too much money. On Fri, 19 Oct 2018 at 17:20, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > They are just PS/2 keyboards, right? Or AT? The USB adapters for that > are a > > dime a dozen. I have 4 in my basement (the real PS/2 to USB, not the faux > > ones that allowed dual-mode mice to connect to USB). > > > > Warner > > > > The 3101 is not PS/2, pre-dates the IBM PC. If someone made an adapter > it'd be unique to this class of terminal. May be like a DisplayWriter > perhaps. > From doc at vaxen.net Sat Oct 20 02:03:14 2018 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 02:03:14 -0500 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: <588CB08A-10DC-434F-8F25-142ADC891940@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <588CB08A-10DC-434F-8F25-142ADC891940@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: <8d96fda2-2d5a-3d7d-e71f-17208cdeb924@vaxen.net> On 10/19/18 12:18 PM, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk wrote: > >> On Oct 19, 2018, at 10:34 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >> >> Here is a great example of why the keyboards and terminals are getting >> separated > > > Keyboard fetishists are vermin; They are destructive and have no redeeming qualities, and should be treated as such. > > I had one of them spend the better part of an hour going on about how I had achieved ?the holy grail of collecting? by having more than one ?Space Cadet? keyboard, fawning about how superlatively perfect they?re supposed to be and everything else pales in comparison. They?re a status symbol in keyboard fetishist circles. According to him they auction north of $5000 for even non-working examples. I have no idea why. GNU Emacs can't use most of the ?special? keys - The Lisp Machine itself doesn't even use most of them - and control is in the same relative place as modern keyboards instead of being where the caps lock key is which was the "mostest hacker-est? thing last I heard. I think it?s just conspicuous consumption - Having one proves you?ve got the dosh to waste things other people must work hard for a chance to get. That's just nasty. Your invective, that is. There are idiots in any enthusiast group, and predators. Including this group, if we're honest. You want to talk conspicuous consumption? How many on this list, myself included, have spent a fortune on old computer hardware, and then another fortune housing it? I'm one of those "fetishists" - I do love me a nice clackety keyboard. And not for nothing, but my experience with '80s- and '90s-era mechanical keyboards is precisely why I do. I build my keyboards from new parts, and I think paying $5/switch for parts from the old Apple Extended Keyboard II is just silly, but I have a hard time blaming anybody for pursuing what's important to them. You guys want people to stop scavenging those irreplaceable treasures? Ante up, pure and simple. I've seen the same thing over and over in the vintage computer circles - guys wailing and wringing their hands about classic machines going to keyboard scavengers, or gold recovery, or whatever the Demon du Jour happens to be. And then they won't pay the price of shipping to keep the thing out of the scrap pile. I have a 5140 Convertible that I tried to sell awhile back in the vcfed community. I got a lot of lowball offers and a lot of rants veiled as warnings about those godless scavengers. From the same cheapskates of course. In the end, that system is worth twice as much as desoldered parts as the best offer I got. Survey sez all that wailing and teeth-gnashing is bullshit. From ats at offog.org Sat Oct 20 05:55:23 2018 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 11:55:23 +0100 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: (Jim Manley via cctalk's message of "Sat, 20 Oct 2018 01:45:17 -0600") References: <04d101d467bf$e271cbb0$a7556310$@verizon.net> <32cf2e38-c3ab-1589-bdae-2bc0dadc174b@bitsavers.org> <04f001d467d6$023188d0$06949a70$@verizon.net> Message-ID: Jim Manley via cctalk writes: > Many are unaware that the largest fraction of CP/M licenses ever sold > were for the Microsoft Softcard for the Apple ][ (about 300,000 sold, > all told), Do you mean sold up to that point? Amstrad went on to sell several million PCWs with CP/M later in the 1980s. (They say 8 million on http://www.amstrad.com/products/archive/, but that includes the much less popular PCW16 which wasn't a CP/M machine.) -- Adam Sampson From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Oct 20 07:10:49 2018 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 07:10:49 -0500 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <04d101d467bf$e271cbb0$a7556310$@verizon.net> <32cf2e38-c3ab-1589-bdae-2bc0dadc174b@bitsavers.org> <04f001d467d6$023188d0$06949a70$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20181020122626.E59104E707@mx2.ezwind.net> At 05:55 AM 10/20/2018, Adam Sampson via cctalk wrote: >Jim Manley via cctalk writes: > >> Many are unaware that the largest fraction of CP/M licenses ever sold >> were for the Microsoft Softcard for the Apple ][ (about 300,000 sold, >> all told), > >Do you mean sold up to that point? Amstrad went on to sell several >million PCWs with CP/M later in the 1980s. (They say 8 million on >http://www.amstrad.com/products/archive/, but that includes the >much less popular PCW16 which wasn't a CP/M machine.) Thw Wikipedia page fot the Softcard has more numbers and dates. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z-80_SoftCard - John From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Oct 20 10:41:58 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 11:41:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal Message-ID: <20181020154158.3F0CC18C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Al Kossow > The quality of modern keycaps is poor. > These guys are after mechanical boards with double-shot keytops. There's something I'm still not quite grasping. I can see two reasons for people liking the old keyboards: - i) Higher quality construction - ii) Connection, through a historial artifact, to an earlier age Am I missing any? I can definitely see the first (I myself find many modern keyboards to be complete crap), but if that's _all_ it is, I'd think there'd be a market for modern production of quality keyboards - not a large market, true, but I'd think it would be large enough to be worth servicing? (Unless the cost to produce such would be so high that there wouldn't be any buyers - but that seems at odd with some of the prices being mentioned.) So maybe people _only_ want keyboards that have both i) and ii)? Noel From imp at bsdimp.com Sat Oct 20 10:51:51 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 09:51:51 -0600 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: <20181020154158.3F0CC18C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181020154158.3F0CC18C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 9:42 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Al Kossow > > > The quality of modern keycaps is poor. > > These guys are after mechanical boards with double-shot keytops. > > There's something I'm still not quite grasping. > > I can see two reasons for people liking the old keyboards: > > - i) Higher quality construction > - ii) Connection, through a historial artifact, to an earlier age > > Am I missing any? > > I can definitely see the first (I myself find many modern keyboards to be > complete crap), but if that's _all_ it is, I'd think there'd be a market > for > modern production of quality keyboards - not a large market, true, but I'd > think it would be large enough to be worth servicing? (Unless the cost to > produce such would be so high that there wouldn't be any buyers - but that > seems at odd with some of the prices being mentioned.) > > So maybe people _only_ want keyboards that have both i) and ii)? > I recently got a decent gamers keyboard for $60. Nnice rocker switches. Loud as hell, like the old model M battleships. Works great and has the same feel as the old ones. Even fing glows in the dark. Has just the right touch. No clue why you'd need a retro one to get the retro feel. So there's something else. Some people are judgemental about it, others are less judgmental. It's the separation from original context that I object to. Warner > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Oct 20 10:57:38 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 11:57:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal Message-ID: <20181020155738.7930B18C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Doc Shipley > You guys want people to stop scavenging those irreplaceable treasures? > Ante up, pure and simple. That works for keeping stuff out of the hands of scrappers (who are, after all, business-people) - but not for fetishists who will pay totally mind-blowing sums for them. Sorry, I'm not paying $5K for _any_ keyboard. You can buy (for example) a complete PDP-11/70 for that much money. > In the end, that system is worth twice as much as desoldered parts as > the best offer I got. But will _all_ of the constituent parts sell, or just some of them - the rest being destined to sit on a shelf, un-sold, until they are pitched? There's a similar debate in other areas of collection - e.g. antique Japanese woodblock-printed books. One can usually make more money by taking them apart, and selling them a page at a time, as opposed to selling them as complete books. (At least all the pages do tend to sell.) Some people consider this vandalism - destroying a 200-year old artifact to maximize $$. I can't say they're wrong... Noel From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Oct 20 11:09:31 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 12:09:31 -0400 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <166923d21b8-1ec2-2866@webjas-vae002.srv.aolmail.net> I am Definitely not a gamer! but my hands are poor at typing and the benifit of hearing the key click helps the accuracy a little.. my xps Dell has pretty loaded games but I have never played one yet.... use it for video editing and internet. l also like keyboard letters do not wear off of Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Saturday, October 20, 2018 Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: On Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 9:42 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Al Kossow > > > The quality of modern keycaps is poor. > > These guys are after mechanical boards with double-shot keytops. > > There's something I'm still not quite grasping. > > I can see two reasons for people liking the old keyboards: > > - i) Higher quality construction > - ii) Connection, through a historial artifact, to an earlier age > > Am I missing any? > > I can definitely see the first (I myself find many modern keyboards to be > complete crap), but if that's _all_ it is, I'd think there'd be a market > for > modern production of quality keyboards - not a large market, true, but I'd > think it would be large enough to be worth servicing? (Unless the cost to > produce such would be so high that there wouldn't be any buyers - but that > seems at odd with some of the prices being mentioned.) > > So maybe people _only_ want keyboards that have both i) and ii)? > I recently got a decent gamers keyboard for $60. Nnice rocker switches. Loud as hell, like the old model M battleships. Works great and has the same feel as the old ones. Even fing glows in the dark. Has just the right touch. No clue why you'd need a retro one to get the retro feel. So there's something else. Some people are judgemental about it, others are less judgmental. It's the separation from original context that I object to. Warner > From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Sat Oct 20 11:31:21 2018 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 11:31:21 -0500 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: <8d96fda2-2d5a-3d7d-e71f-17208cdeb924@vaxen.net> References: <588CB08A-10DC-434F-8F25-142ADC891940@lunar-tokyo.net> <8d96fda2-2d5a-3d7d-e71f-17208cdeb924@vaxen.net> Message-ID: > On Oct 20, 2018, at 2:03 AM, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote: > > That's just nasty. Your invective, that is. There are idiots in any enthusiast group, and predators. Including this group, if we're honest. You want to talk conspicuous consumption? How many on this list, myself included, have spent a fortune on old computer hardware, and then another fortune housing it? That?s not consumption. The items involved are not ?consumed? - they are not destroyed or used up. Taking a piece of equipment and turning it into a keyboard plus N pounds of scrap is consumption. The equipment is destroyed. > You guys want people to stop scavenging those irreplaceable treasures? Ante up, pure and simple. Right, because availability of cash is the sole determining factor in a person?s worth. I guess someone should come pick up all this stuff then, I clearly don?t deserve any of it. I only spent ten years plus searching, called in major favors to get it here, and wrote two successful public projects to share the experience with other people - but very little money. What was I thinking? I?m sure whoever is able to shell out $8K from their trust fund to turn 1500 pounds of potentially working machines into a couple el33t h4x0r g4ming keyboards will be far more deserving than a filthy poor like me. From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Oct 20 11:52:19 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 12:52:19 -0400 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <16692644fbb-1ec3-2973@webjas-vab171.srv.aolmail.net> all this? ?keyboard jewelry reminds me of people ripping keys off old vintage typewriters? that had the celluloid tops to make woman's jewelry? of........ very sad..? saw this happening in the? places that sold? this kid of stuff.. ? . In a message dated 10/20/2018 9:31:33 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? > On Oct 20, 2018, at 2:03 AM, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote: > > That's just nasty. Your invective, that is. There are idiots in any enthusiast group, and predators. Including this group, if we're honest. You want to talk conspicuous consumption? How many on this list, myself included, have spent a fortune on old computer hardware, and then another fortune housing it? That?s not consumption. The items involved are not ?consumed? - they are not destroyed or used up. Taking a piece of equipment and turning it into a keyboard plus N pounds of scrap is consumption. The equipment is destroyed. > You guys want people to stop scavenging those irreplaceable treasures? Ante up, pure and simple. Right, because availability of cash is the sole determining factor in a person?s worth. I guess someone should come pick up all this stuff then, I clearly don?t deserve any of it. I only spent ten years plus searching, called in major favors to get it here, and wrote two successful public projects to share the experience with other people - but very little money. What was I thinking? I?m sure whoever is able to shell out $8K from their trust fund to turn 1500 pounds of potentially working machines into a couple el33t h4x0r g4ming keyboards will be far more deserving than a filthy poor like me. From rtomek at ceti.pl Sat Oct 20 12:31:20 2018 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 19:31:20 +0200 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 01:50:20AM -0600, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: > I thought it was just hilarious that Microsoft chose The Rolling > Stones' "Start Me Up" for the theme song at the launch of Windows 95, > unaware of the later lyrics in the song (not played during the launch, > oddly enough), "You make a grown man cry-y-y ... You make a grown man > cry-y-y ... You make a grown man cry-y-y ... " [...] Oooh. My personal recollection about w95 is that there was a lot of touting before the premiere day, how advanced it was because "object oriented operating system". The premiere came, the toutings quickly faded away, never heard any kind of objection about this aspect. I, for quite long time, had been thinking W95 was a scam because for the life of me I could not spot any sign of its object-orientedness (and there was nothing else interesting enough to make me want to tinker with this... something). It was only years later that it finally came to me: I might have been one of the very few people who not only understood some of the buzzwords but also was duped into believing there should be some substance behind them (which maybe makes me exceptional, just not in a good way). Nowadays, I consider W95 as very interesting subject of study - a technical product of non-technical genius(es) (ok, if there were tech geniuses involved in its making, I would say it does not show up). It took a lot of manipulation and wind sniffing to make it such a big success, and plenty of intellectual indolence from rivals and customers. :-) -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 20 12:52:45 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 10:52:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <04d101d467bf$e271cbb0$a7556310$@verizon.net> <32cf2e38-c3ab-1589-bdae-2bc0dadc174b@bitsavers.org> <04f001d467d6$023188d0$06949a70$@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Oct 2018, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: > IBM wasn't even aware of the penetration of dial-up among consumers > and very small businesses, or they would have initially offered > modems, at least as options, if not in package combos. Retailers who > understood the consumer and very small business markets quickly began > offering modems in response to the vacuum that IBM had created. They DID offer the Async Card (Serial RS-232, AND 20mA) for using modems, serial printers, etc. Similarly, although they sold a joystick board, they didn't sell joysticks. DA15 connector for two joysticks. In some of the documentation, the sketch of a joystick was clearly the Radio Shack Coco joystick (which needed a different connector) LATER, they sold a joystick when the PCJr came out. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sat Oct 20 13:05:45 2018 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 19:05:45 +0100 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <04d101d467bf$e271cbb0$a7556310$@verizon.net> <32cf2e38-c3ab-1589-bdae-2bc0dadc174b@bitsavers.org> <04f001d467d6$023188d0$06949a70$@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 6:52 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Similarly, although they sold a joystick board, they didn't sell > joysticks. DA15 connector for two joysticks. > In some of the documentation, the sketch of a joystick was clearly the > Radio Shack Coco joystick (which needed a different connector) And is electrically different. The CoCo Joystick is a potential divider across the 5V rail. Moving the joystick varies the output voltage (2 voltages per joystick, X and Y). This is fed into a 6 bit ADC (actually a 6 bit DAC, a comparator and some firmware). The IBM PC Joystick (like the Apple ][ ones) is a pair of variable resistors. This are the timing resistors in monostable circuits, acutally an NE558 chip (Think of it as being 4 555 timers always connected as monostables in one package). The software triggers the monostables then sees how long they take to flip back again. I assume the PCjr Joystick is like the PC one, electrically, but I don't feel like going upstairs to check the TechRef. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 20 13:41:04 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 11:41:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <04d101d467bf$e271cbb0$a7556310$@verizon.net> <32cf2e38-c3ab-1589-bdae-2bc0dadc174b@bitsavers.org> <04f001d467d6$023188d0$06949a70$@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Oct 2018, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: > IBM wasn't even aware of the penetration of dial-up among consumers > and very small businesses, . . . > Another sign that IBM wasn't confident about the longevity of the PC > is that they outsourced the development of its OS to Microsoft, > believing that Microsoft owned CP/M because of an Apple ][ compatible > product described in the next paragraph. Very True. Although to be fair, Microsoft IMMEDIATELY corrected the misperception, and sent IBM to DRI. There was a bit of "culture clash" between IBM and DRI, and IBM CHOSE to go back to Microsoft, and get them to do the OS. There are many conflicting "histories" of the encounter. The most egregiously lacking in any reality at all was "Pirates Of The Valley", which portrayed Steve Jobs and Bill gates as being the computer industry, and had Bill Gates going to Florida and COLD CALLING IBM to sell them on the idea of having an OS! What actually happened was that Gary Kildall flew his plane up to Oakland to visit Bill Godbout. (a few reports said that he was off SAILING). He left the business (in a house in Pacific Grove) in the capable hands of his wife. One report says that he said, "They just want to sign papers for a license, let them come to the front desk, like any other customer." IBM was miffed that Gary Kildall wasn't there for their meeting. Some reports say that they were also offended by the "California culture", with workers barefoot, shirtless, in shorts, women without bras, surfboards and bicycles in the hallways, food, plants, cats, and dogs in offices, etc. AND, DRI balked at signing IBMs NDA. IBM still had at least an unofficial dress code, and wore identical suits. One report even says that a worker looking out the upstairs window (it is a lovely view) when IBM approached, thought that it was a drug raid. (In 2012, I was in Pacific Grove for a day, so I sought out the house. I met a fellow who had bought it in a foreclosure sale, and found out later that it had a history. He freely let me walk through and see the place.) > A small business to IBM was much larger than the sizes of businesses > that Apple was typically serving at that time. Many are unaware that > the largest fraction of CP/M licenses ever sold were for the Microsoft > Softcard for the Apple ][ (about 300,000 sold, all told), not S-100 > systems (somewhere around 150,000 systems built by hobbyists, or sold > by small manufacturers). The Softcard was a Z-80 based single-board > computer that plugged into an Apple ][ slot, equipped with its own > 80x24 character x line black-and-white video output, RAM, etc., and > that shared Apple ][ electrical power and floppy disk drives. The > Softcard was Microsoft's first really successful product, responsible > for its first tens of millions of dollars in revenue and profits. > > The Softcard was developed by Seattle Computer Products, the same > two-man company in a Seattle garage that later sold its prototype > 8086/8088 OS to Microsoft for $50,000. Microsoft turned around within > a day and sold it to IBM via a _non-exclusive_ license (a critical > factor that allowed them to field MS-DOS, their self-branded version > of IBM's PC-DOS), for $3 million _plus_ about $50 per computer sold > with PC-DOS. That model, updated for Windows, is the cash cow that's > still printing profits for Microsoft to this day. I'm really not sure about the "within a day". Although, it certainly didn't take LONG. Also, although I can't name anybody in SCP other than Tim Paterson and Rod Brock, I think that there were a few others there. (And some high school kids they hired to assemble boards) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From doc at vaxen.net Sat Oct 20 11:46:05 2018 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 11:46:05 -0500 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: <20181020154158.3F0CC18C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181020154158.3F0CC18C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <1cfce25f-8fca-4c80-ed9e-101e457d5542@vaxen.net> On 10/20/18 10:41 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Al Kossow > > > The quality of modern keycaps is poor. > > These guys are after mechanical boards with double-shot keytops. > > There's something I'm still not quite grasping. > > I can see two reasons for people liking the old keyboards: > > - i) Higher quality construction > - ii) Connection, through a historial artifact, to an earlier age > > Am I missing any? > > I can definitely see the first (I myself find many modern keyboards to be > complete crap), but if that's _all_ it is, I'd think there'd be a market for > modern production of quality keyboards - not a large market, true, but I'd > think it would be large enough to be worth servicing? (Unless the cost to > produce such would be so high that there wouldn't be any buyers - but that > seems at odd with some of the prices being mentioned.) > > So maybe people _only_ want keyboards that have both i) and ii)? i) There is certainly a very active market in good quality, current-production keyboards, keyboard kits and keyboard parts. That market is not just being serviced, it's moving past the niche category. The level of ongoing development and the vendors' response to customer input are phenomenal. The level of "discernment" in the higher tiers of keyboard gear reminds me a lot of the high-end audiophile market.... I'm mostly deaf and my hands are scarred, arthritic, and desensitized and I don't play video games, so I have no useful opinion about either one. ii) My observation, by no means authoritative, is that the folk who used those '80s keyboards in the '80s aren't the ones paying top dollar for them. My grandson dreams of owning a '67 Dodge Charger. A 440cid '68 was my daily driver for a couple of years, and I don't want one at all. Same-same. Doc From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 20 14:28:50 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 12:28:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <04d101d467bf$e271cbb0$a7556310$@verizon.net> <32cf2e38-c3ab-1589-bdae-2bc0dadc174b@bitsavers.org> <04f001d467d6$023188d0$06949a70$@verizon.net> Message-ID: >> Similarly, although they sold a joystick board, they didn't sell >> joysticks. DA15 connector for two joysticks. >> In some of the documentation, the sketch of a joystick was clearly the >> Radio Shack Coco joystick (which needed a different connector) On Sat, 20 Oct 2018, Tony Duell wrote: > And is electrically different. > The CoCo Joystick is a potential divider across the 5V rail. Moving the > joystick varies the output voltage (2 voltages per joystick, X and Y). This > is fed into a 6 bit ADC (actually a 6 bit DAC, a comparator and some > firmware). > The IBM PC Joystick (like the Apple ][ ones) is a pair of variable > resistors. This are the timing resistors in monostable circuits, acutally > an NE558 chip (Think of it as being 4 555 timers always connected as > monostables in one package). The software triggers the monostables > then sees how long they take to flip back again. Could you provide some remedial tutoring on what I am misunderstanding? All of that circuitry is in the "controller". The joystick itself consists of pushbuttons and two potentiometers. NO other active circuitry. Moving the joystick does not itself vary the output voltage, when it is not so connected. Moving the joystick varies the wiper position along a resistive element. (admittedly, if the ends of the resistive element are connected to voltage and ground, then the wiper connection provides a variable output voltage) If the resistance is compatible, then what modifications need to be made to convert a "voltage divider" potentiometer to a "rheostat"/"variable resistor"? (wire to wiper and one end of the resistive element (already present), disconnect the connection at the other end of the resistive element) YES, it was "intended" to be used differently. If one KNOWS that it is impossible to make it work, then it makes it more difficult. Could one safely ignore the "No user serviceable components inside" sticker on the bottom of the joystick? :-) And, of course, there is the difficulty of locating a DA-15 connector! There are some on eBay, but the seller says that they are DB-15 :-) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Oct 20 16:41:42 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 15:41:42 -0600 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <04d101d467bf$e271cbb0$a7556310$@verizon.net> <32cf2e38-c3ab-1589-bdae-2bc0dadc174b@bitsavers.org> <04f001d467d6$023188d0$06949a70$@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 01:46 Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: > The Softcard was a Z-80 based single-board > computer It wasn't. It was only a processor card. that plugged into an Apple ][ slot, equipped with its own > 80x24 character x line black-and-white video output, No version of the Softcard had it's own video output. It used normal Apple video output. If you wanted 80x24, you had to use a separate third-party 80-column card, or (later) and Apple IIe, IIc, IIc+, or IIgs. RAM, etc., > I'm not sure what you're referring to by "etc.", but the vast majority of Softcards and their clones did not have their own RAM, and used that of the Apple II. The PCPI Applicard and it's clones had their own RAM. Some very late models of the Softcard had their own RAM. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 20 16:54:28 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 14:54:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Softcard (Was: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <04d101d467bf$e271cbb0$a7556310$@verizon.net> <32cf2e38-c3ab-1589-bdae-2bc0dadc174b@bitsavers.org> <04f001d467d6$023188d0$06949a70$@verizon.net> Message-ID: >> The Softcard was a Z-80 based single-board >> computer On Sat, 20 Oct 2018, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > It wasn't. It was only a processor card. > No version of the Softcard had it's own video output. It used normal Apple > video output. If you wanted 80x24, you had to use a separate third-party > 80-column card, or (later) and Apple IIe, IIc, IIc+, or IIgs. > I'm not sure what you're referring to by "etc.", but the vast majority of > Softcards and their clones did not have their own RAM, and used that of the > Apple II. > The PCPI Applicard and it's clones had their own RAM. Some very late models > of the Softcard had their own RAM. I remember hearing, at one point, a statement (not necessarily reliable), that said that 20% of Apple computers had a Softcard. What was the approximate percentage in 1980/1981, when IBM contacted Microsoft? (or number that had been sold, which would include ones not actually in use) What was the PEAK percentage? (or number that had been sold, which would include ones not actually in use) Were there other brands, or imitations, available then (1980/1981)? Later, what percentage were imitations? Speculatively, how much were they used V use of the machine in non-Z80 ways? (How many people bought it just ot have the capability, without necessarily being active CP/M users?) This is definitely not the first time that I have heard that IBM had assumed that CP/M was a Microsoft product. From ian.primus.ccmp at gmail.com Sat Oct 20 19:00:19 2018 From: ian.primus.ccmp at gmail.com (Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 20:00:19 -0400 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ugh - this is super frustrating to see. Especially since I have a 3101 here with no keyboard. And the reason *why* it has no keyboard? It got bought out from under me. I bought this terminal, complete, on eBay. It arrives... with no keyboard. I complained to the seller, he refunded all my money and just said, basically "Sorry, someone gave me a whole lot of money for the keyboard alone, you can keep the terminal".... Great. So, now I have a useless terminal on my shelf waiting for me to get extremely lucky and find the missing keyboard. What's even worse is this wasn't even the first time this happened to me. I have an Infoton here that's missing it's keyboard for the exact same reason. Collecting computer terminals has gotten horribly frustrating, and really, these keyboard scalpers have sucked a lot of the fun out of the hobby for me. -Ian On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 11:34 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > Here is a great example of why the keyboards and terminals are getting > separated > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-3101-beam-spring-keyboard-purchased-new-in-1982/123422383512?hash=item1cbc8c1d98:g:sCkAAOSwfbhbwQvU > > Note the price $2000 so far. How could one blame the seller. I wonder if > this is the terminal I sold to a buyer in California years ago when I sold > my Series/1 computer. All he wanted was the terminal, I donated the rest > to what was the MARCH museum. At the time I remember having a few words > with the buyer who would not also take the Series/1 system (2 racks) or the > manuals. > > There is a naked terminal up for grabs if you're out his way. > > Bill From imp at bsdimp.com Sat Oct 20 19:16:25 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 18:16:25 -0600 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm surprised there aren't a boatload of arduino projects to create a PC keyboard to each of the classics... Warner On Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 6:00 PM Ian Primus via cctalk wrote: > Ugh - this is super frustrating to see. Especially since I have a 3101 > here with no keyboard. And the reason *why* it has no keyboard? It got > bought out from under me. I bought this terminal, complete, on eBay. > It arrives... with no keyboard. I complained to the seller, he > refunded all my money and just said, basically "Sorry, someone gave me > a whole lot of money for the keyboard alone, you can keep the > terminal".... Great. So, now I have a useless terminal on my shelf > waiting for me to get extremely lucky and find the missing keyboard. > > What's even worse is this wasn't even the first time this happened to > me. I have an Infoton here that's missing it's keyboard for the exact > same reason. > > Collecting computer terminals has gotten horribly frustrating, and > really, these keyboard scalpers have sucked a lot of the fun out of > the hobby for me. > > -Ian > On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 11:34 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Here is a great example of why the keyboards and terminals are getting > > separated > > > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-3101-beam-spring-keyboard-purchased-new-in-1982/123422383512?hash=item1cbc8c1d98:g:sCkAAOSwfbhbwQvU > > > > Note the price $2000 so far. How could one blame the seller. I wonder > if > > this is the terminal I sold to a buyer in California years ago when I > sold > > my Series/1 computer. All he wanted was the terminal, I donated the rest > > to what was the MARCH museum. At the time I remember having a few words > > with the buyer who would not also take the Series/1 system (2 racks) or > the > > manuals. > > > > There is a naked terminal up for grabs if you're out his way. > > > > Bill > From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 20 20:56:45 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 18:56:45 -0700 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9528812d-b72d-5372-614a-b44c486c0bc1@bitsavers.org> On 10/20/18 5:16 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > I'm surprised there aren't a boatload of arduino projects to create a PC > keyboard to each of the classics... If things continue as they are, people will be forced to do that, or create replicas. In the past, the kb collectors would build adapters for the logic in the keyboards, so there was some reverse-engineering occurring http://www.kbdbabel.org/ but now, the trend is to gut the electronics and replace it, using just the key matrix I've been working a lot with MAME developers doing emulations of terminals. A side effect of that is documenting the keyboard protocols and key maps for valued and not-so-valued but rare terminal keyboards like the ones on Qumes. From imp at bsdimp.com Sat Oct 20 22:05:06 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 21:05:06 -0600 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: <9528812d-b72d-5372-614a-b44c486c0bc1@bitsavers.org> References: <9528812d-b72d-5372-614a-b44c486c0bc1@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 7:56 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 10/20/18 5:16 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > > I'm surprised there aren't a boatload of arduino projects to create a PC > > keyboard to each of the classics... > > If things continue as they are, people will be forced to do that, or > create replicas. > > In the past, the kb collectors would build adapters for the logic in the > keyboards, > so there was some reverse-engineering occurring > > http://www.kbdbabel.org/ > > but now, the trend is to gut the electronics and replace it, using just > the key matrix > > I've been working a lot with MAME developers doing emulations of > terminals. A side effect > of that is documenting the keyboard protocols and key maps for valued and > not-so-valued but > rare terminal keyboards like the ones on Qumes. > that's awesome. I've been working to flesh out the final details of the Rainbow with a gentleman who has more of a knack for that stuff than I... It's awesome you've done similar with these keyboards... Warner From imp at bsdimp.com Sat Oct 20 22:11:36 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 21:11:36 -0600 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: References: <9528812d-b72d-5372-614a-b44c486c0bc1@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 9:05 PM Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 7:56 PM Al Kossow via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On 10/20/18 5:16 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: >> > I'm surprised there aren't a boatload of arduino projects to create a PC >> > keyboard to each of the classics... >> >> If things continue as they are, people will be forced to do that, or >> create replicas. >> >> In the past, the kb collectors would build adapters for the logic in the >> keyboards, >> so there was some reverse-engineering occurring >> >> http://www.kbdbabel.org/ >> >> but now, the trend is to gut the electronics and replace it, using just >> the key matrix >> >> I've been working a lot with MAME developers doing emulations of >> terminals. A side effect >> of that is documenting the keyboard protocols and key maps for valued and >> not-so-valued but >> rare terminal keyboards like the ones on Qumes. >> > > that's awesome. I've been working to flesh out the final details of the > Rainbow with a gentleman who has more of a knack for that stuff than I... > > It's awesome you've done similar with these keyboards... > I have an old Apple Newton keyboard... would that be useful? It's just a simple serial protocol with a table that at one point I write a program that used the xtest extension to allow me to use it as my main keyboard while in X11.... Would that be helpful / useful here at all? Warner From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sat Oct 20 23:07:02 2018 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 05:07:02 +0100 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <04d101d467bf$e271cbb0$a7556310$@verizon.net> <32cf2e38-c3ab-1589-bdae-2bc0dadc174b@bitsavers.org> <04f001d467d6$023188d0$06949a70$@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 8:28 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > >> Similarly, although they sold a joystick board, they didn't sell > >> joysticks. DA15 connector for two joysticks. > >> In some of the documentation, the sketch of a joystick was clearly the > >> Radio Shack Coco joystick (which needed a different connector) > > On Sat, 20 Oct 2018, Tony Duell wrote: > > And is electrically different. > > The CoCo Joystick is a potential divider across the 5V rail. Moving the > > joystick varies the output voltage (2 voltages per joystick, X and Y). This > > is fed into a 6 bit ADC (actually a 6 bit DAC, a comparator and some > > firmware). > > The IBM PC Joystick (like the Apple ][ ones) is a pair of variable > > resistors. This are the timing resistors in monostable circuits, acutally > > an NE558 chip (Think of it as being 4 555 timers always connected as > > monostables in one package). The software triggers the monostables > > then sees how long they take to flip back again. > > Could you provide some remedial tutoring on what I am misunderstanding? > > All of that circuitry is in the "controller". > The joystick itself consists of pushbuttons and two potentiometers. NO > other active circuitry. > Moving the joystick does not itself vary the output voltage, when it is > not so connected. Moving the joystick varies the wiper position along a > resistive element. (admittedly, if the ends of the resistive element are > connected to voltage and ground, then the wiper connection provides > a variable output voltage) That last is basically what I am getting at. The variable resistor consists of a resistive track with a wiper on it. It has a total of 3 connections -- the 2 ends of the track and the wiper. Now you can use it in essentally two ways : 1) As a 'potentiometer' [1] . All 3 connections are used. The ends of the track are connected across a power supply (in the case of the CoCo Joystick to +5V and logic ground). The wiper thus has a voltage that depends on the postion of the wiper. 2) As a variable resistor. Only one end of the track and the wiper are used [2]. This is the case of the PC Joystick. Here one side goes to +5V, the other to the timing resistor input on the monostable. Now because the CoCo Joystick's 2 axes use the same power supply, corresponding ends of the 2 resistive tracks are linked inside. Which is a minor problem if you want to use it with the PC as the 'unused' ends of the 2 tracks should not be connected. You have to change the wiring slightly. [1] So called because originally it was used to measure 'potential' (voltage). The ends of the track were connected to a stable voltage supply, the wiper to one side of a sensitve current detector (galvanometer). The unknown input voltage was connected between the other side of the galvanometer and the 'bottom' end of the track. When no current flowed through the galvanometer, the 2 connections to it were at the same voltage, meaning the unknown voltage could be determeined as a fraction (the fractional position of the wiper on the track) of the stable voltage supply across the whole track. [2] Although just to be confusing it is conventional to connect the unused end of the resistive track to the wiper. Then if there is a bad contact at the wiper you get the whole track resistance in the circuit rather than infinite resisitance > > If the resistance is compatible, then what modifications need to be made > to convert a "voltage divider" potentiometer to a "rheostat"/"variable > resistor"? > (wire to wiper and one end of the resistive element (already present), > disconnect the connection at the other end of the resistive element) That's it. You have to disconnect one end of the resistive element. > > YES, it was "intended" to be used differently. > > If one KNOWS that it is impossible to make it work, then it makes it more > difficult. > > > Could one safely ignore the "No user serviceable components inside" > sticker on the bottom of the joystick? :-) Well, technically it's true. If I am servicing something I can't be using it at the same time so I am not a user.... > And, of course, there is the difficulty of locating a DA-15 connector! > There are some on eBay, but the seller says that they are DB-15 :-) I would think most of the large component suppliers (RS components (who are not Radio Shack), Farnell/Newark, Mouser, Digikey, etc) would have them but no idea what they are called... -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Oct 21 00:05:41 2018 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 01:05:41 -0400 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: <588CB08A-10DC-434F-8F25-142ADC891940@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <588CB08A-10DC-434F-8F25-142ADC891940@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: It's Beanie Babies all over again, people. Give it a year or two and the keyboard market will likely crash. Pick them up on the slide down. I bet most will not be gutted, simply due to the general lack of activity of computer people. Just like we are. -- Will (who paid attention to all those IBM terminals and keyboards years ago when everyone else was ignoring them. No, I will not sell you any.) From thollowell at designdata.com Sat Oct 20 18:03:22 2018 From: thollowell at designdata.com (Thomas Hollowell) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 23:03:22 +0000 Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) Message-ID: Hi Eric, My name is Tom Hollowell. I took the US support of Rolm in 1998. PWA assumed the international. I noticed that you have some ROLM hardware. I may be interested in finding out what you have. Let me know, Thanks, Tom Sent from my iPhone From useddec at gmail.com Sun Oct 21 04:12:52 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 04:12:52 -0500 Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I was at the DG factory school at Southbourgh in 76 or 77, and worked on a ROLM NOVA while at RAF Chicksands in the late 70s. Unfortunately, my EX through out all of the manuals, prints, etc along with a complete set of SAGE (ANFSQ-7) docs. Paul On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 3:38 AM Thomas Hollowell via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi Eric, > My name is Tom Hollowell. I took the US support of Rolm in 1998. PWA > assumed the international. I noticed that you have some ROLM hardware. I > may be interested in finding out what you have. > Let me know, > Thanks, > Tom > > Sent from my iPhone From erik at baigar.de Sun Oct 21 09:08:19 2018 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 08:08:19 -0600 Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Paul, thanks for your reply - good to see that there are still guys out there who worked with this heavy iron. So you have been in the UK while working with the Rolm? I guess it was a 1602B or later and pesumably some airborne early warning stuff? Best wishes, Erik. Am 21. Oktober 2018 03:12:52 GMT-06:00 schrieb Paul Anderson via cctalk : >I was at the DG factory school at Southbourgh in 76 or 77, and worked >on a >ROLM NOVA while at RAF Chicksands in the late 70s. Unfortunately, my EX >through out all of the manuals, prints, etc along with a complete set >of >SAGE (ANFSQ-7) docs. > >Paul > >On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 3:38 AM Thomas Hollowell via cctalk < >cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Hi Eric, >> My name is Tom Hollowell. I took the US support of Rolm in 1998. PWA >> assumed the international. I noticed that you have some ROLM >hardware. I >> may be interested in finding out what you have. >> Let me know, >> Thanks, >> Tom >> >> Sent from my iPhone -- Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android-Ger?t mit K-9 Mail gesendet. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Oct 21 12:44:29 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 10:44:29 -0700 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: References: <9528812d-b72d-5372-614a-b44c486c0bc1@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 10/20/18 8:11 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > I have an old Apple Newton keyboard... would that be useful? It's just a simple serial protocol with a table that at one > point I write a program that used the xtest extension to allow me to use it as my main keyboard while in X11.... Would > that be helpful / useful here at all? It would be good to get it documented somewhere. From systems.glitch at gmail.com Sun Oct 21 13:09:16 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 14:09:16 -0400 Subject: Softcard (Was: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <04d101d467bf$e271cbb0$a7556310$@verizon.net> <32cf2e38-c3ab-1589-bdae-2bc0dadc174b@bitsavers.org> <04f001d467d6$023188d0$06949a70$@verizon.net> Message-ID: I'd heard, but have no sources for said hearsay, that the most common CP/M machine in volume was the Apple II. There were definitely knockoffs of the Microsoft Z80 Softcard. One of my IIe systems has one from SPACE BYTE, the other is no-name. I've personally seen more knockoffs than actual Microsoft cards. The two I have currently are definitely "photocopy" type knockoff/clone cards, the layout is nearly identical to the real Microsoft card I've got. That of course doesn't speak for what was actually deployed. Some Apple II compatibles also came with CP/M compatibility out of the box, I don't personally know if that was MS Z80 Softcard compatible or something else. Thanks, Jonathan On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 5:54 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> The Softcard was a Z-80 based single-board > >> computer > > On Sat, 20 Oct 2018, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > > It wasn't. It was only a processor card. > > No version of the Softcard had it's own video output. It used normal > Apple > > video output. If you wanted 80x24, you had to use a separate third-party > > 80-column card, or (later) and Apple IIe, IIc, IIc+, or IIgs. > > I'm not sure what you're referring to by "etc.", but the vast majority of > > Softcards and their clones did not have their own RAM, and used that of > the > > Apple II. > > The PCPI Applicard and it's clones had their own RAM. Some very late > models > > of the Softcard had their own RAM. > > I remember hearing, at one point, a statement (not necessarily reliable), > that said that 20% of Apple computers had a Softcard. > What was the approximate percentage in 1980/1981, when IBM contacted > Microsoft? > (or number that had been sold, which would include ones not actually in > use) > > What was the PEAK percentage? > (or number that had been sold, which would include ones not actually in > use) > > Were there other brands, or imitations, available then (1980/1981)? > > Later, what percentage were imitations? > > Speculatively, how much were they used V use of the machine in non-Z80 > ways? (How many people bought it just ot have the capability, without > necessarily being active CP/M users?) > > > This is definitely not the first time that I have heard that IBM had > assumed that CP/M was a Microsoft product. > > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Oct 21 13:25:21 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 11:25:21 -0700 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: References: <588CB08A-10DC-434F-8F25-142ADC891940@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: On 10/20/18 10:05 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > It's Beanie Babies all over again, people. Give it a year or two and the > keyboard market will likely crash. I don't see it happening, unless someone turns up a warehouse full of the things cheap to drive supply up. All I hear about are guys with warehouses scrapping CRTs, and those are 80's & 90's commodity ASCII terminals. The only terminal keyboards still turning up in volume are Wyse because the rest were junk that got flaky 10+ years ago. Beanie Babies were sold as collectables, and millions were made. CRT terminals aren't collectable. You don't flip them. There are a handful of interest to collectors, like VT100s. Before Hercules, no one cared about CU terminals because there was nothing you could do with them without the knowledge of the care and feeding of IBM big iron. Even twinax was pretty out there. Only 'corestore' ever showed much of anything in that world. So now, all of that is pretty much obsolete and getting thrown out by the warehouse load. Hell, even I ended up with 10 3191 terminals recently because they would have been tossed. Because of my job, I have to think about what the museum needs to collect at the bottom of the supply bathtub curve, and I get nervous when things start to come up on the tail side. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 21 13:36:41 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 11:36:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Softcard (Was: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <04d101d467bf$e271cbb0$a7556310$@verizon.net> <32cf2e38-c3ab-1589-bdae-2bc0dadc174b@bitsavers.org> <04f001d467d6$023188d0$06949a70$@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Oct 2018, systems_glitch wrote: > I'd heard, but have no sources for said hearsay, that the most common CP/M > machine in volume was the Apple II. At one time. I have heard that Amstrad eventually passed them. How were sales of Commodore 128? > There were definitely knockoffs of the Microsoft Z80 Softcard. One of my > IIe systems has one from SPACE BYTE, the other is no-name. I've personally > seen more knockoffs than actual Microsoft cards. The two I have currently > are definitely "photocopy" type knockoff/clone cards, the layout is nearly > identical to the real Microsoft card I've got. That of course doesn't speak > for what was actually deployed. I would assume that in the early days, it was all, or almost all the real Microsoft one. That would include the time when IBM thought that Microsoft was the source of CP/M. LATER, there were imitations, copies, clones, and counterfeits. Some of the "imitators" were legal, and may even have had improvements. Don't know where to get numbers of those. Sales data for the Microsoft one exist, but for the others? The law is not always clear as to how close an imitation may be. For example, Kevin Jenkins/"Hercules" copied the MDA design, adding RAM and graphics capability. Then he was furious when others copied his design. ("clone smasher" ad campaign, that even claimed that imitation boards could destroy the computer) > Some Apple II compatibles also came with CP/M compatibility out of the box, > I don't personally know if that was MS Z80 Softcard compatible or something > else. Basis 108 had a Z80 secondary processor. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Oct 21 14:34:03 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 12:34:03 -0700 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: References: <588CB08A-10DC-434F-8F25-142ADC891940@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: On 10/21/18 11:25 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Because of my job, I have to think about what the museum needs to collect > at the bottom of the supply bathtub curve, and I get nervous when things > start to come up on the tail side. I should probably expound on that a bit more. I've noticed our collection is pretty weak in IBM and compatible comms gear. I had some documentation to fill in some holes, but that made me think more about 3rd party devices, which are a little easier to document because it isn't full of IBM ASICs. I've been making some calls, you'd think the stuff would still be out there, but after they stop laughing the brokers either say they threw that stuff out decades ago, or want thousands of dollars for it then don't have the documentation. Maybe I'm just calling the wrong places. The one thing I'm really looking for is the AT&T/Memorex MCS 6542 control unit. I stumbled upon the hardware description looking for something else about two weeks ago, but can't find anyone that still has one. 6541s are easy to find, but they use a proprietary "standard serial interface" which only works with AT&T terminals. From marco at familie-rauhut.eu Sun Oct 21 04:50:55 2018 From: marco at familie-rauhut.eu (Marco Rauhut) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 11:50:55 +0200 Subject: PDP8A Power Distribution Board Message-ID: <62b9af31-6e41-a2a2-6f92-d07eee64c0ef@familie-rauhut.eu> Hello alltogether, i am restoring a PDP8A at the moment. The machine got a problem in the Powersupply. I think one of the emergency ciruits trigger a shutdown of PSU. In tracing this isue i hab two questions. My 8A`s manufacturing year is 1977. It`s model is 8A620. On Bitsavers i found a matching shematic for the BA8C Power distribution Board from 1976 (File: EK-8A002-MM-002_PDP-8A_Miniprocessor_Users_Manual_Dec76.pdf page 597). The Board Number is 5412000-0-1. My first question is if somone has the Board Layout with it's component locations? My second question is about the DEC4011 Chips. As i inspected the Board i found the DEC4011 Chips. First i think they are the standard CMOS 4011 quad two-input NAND`s. In the shematic it look more like a four Transistor array. Did anyone know somthing aput these Chips? Are there any equivalent parts? Have anyone a Datasheet of it? Marco From erik at baigar.de Sun Oct 21 06:34:44 2018 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 05:34:44 -0600 Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Tom, thanks for getting in touch. I got some hardware and documentation from PWA as they wanted to get rid of all the small portion which remained. I focused on the 16 bit machines so I have 1602 (forwarded 1602b to a colleague) and a mse14. All restored to working condition. With two colleagues we built a hdd simulator, so the mse is running mapped RDOS. My marvels I guess are a microcode development kit for the 1602 and the Rolm "mother". Currently I am in Denver to attend the nova-at-50.org... More if interested next week... Erik. Am 20. Oktober 2018 17:03:22 GMT-06:00 schrieb Thomas Hollowell via cctech : >Hi Eric, >My name is Tom Hollowell. I took the US support of Rolm in 1998. PWA >assumed the international. I noticed that you have some ROLM hardware. >I may be interested in finding out what you have. >Let me know, >Thanks, >Tom > >Sent from my iPhone -- Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android-Ger?t mit K-9 Mail gesendet. From ylee at columbia.edu Sun Oct 21 12:08:17 2018 From: ylee at columbia.edu (Yeechang Lee) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 10:08:17 -0700 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <04d101d467bf$e271cbb0$a7556310$@verizon.net> <32cf2e38-c3ab-1589-bdae-2bc0dadc174b@bitsavers.org> <04f001d467d6$023188d0$06949a70$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <23500.45697.438059.695141@dobie.ylee.org> Tony Duell says: > > In some of the documentation, the sketch of a joystick was clearly > > the Radio Shack Coco joystick (which needed a different connector) > > And is electrically different. The Tandy 1000 series has Color Computer joystick ports (and the TRS-80 card-edge parallel port). I've read that some software is incompatible with CoCo joysticks, but don't remember seeing any such with my 1000SL. -- geo:37.783333,-122.416667 From ken.shirriff at gmail.com Sun Oct 21 21:12:16 2018 From: ken.shirriff at gmail.com (Ken Shirriff) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 19:12:16 -0700 Subject: 1970s CDC disk drive (Craigslist, Washington DC) Message-ID: Someone pointed out this CDC disk drive on Craigslist in the Washington DC area: https://washingtondc.craigslist.org/mld/zip/d/early-computer-era-rolling/6728728220.html I have no connection to this, and don't know anything about it, but figured someone on cctalk might want to pick it up, rather than it getting scrapped. Ken From george.rachor at gmail.com Sun Oct 21 22:11:30 2018 From: george.rachor at gmail.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 20:11:30 -0700 Subject: Softcard (Was: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <04d101d467bf$e271cbb0$a7556310$@verizon.net> <32cf2e38-c3ab-1589-bdae-2bc0dadc174b@bitsavers.org> <04f001d467d6$023188d0$06949a70$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <9E856BB6-580D-48C5-874E-FDB2A7830E96@gmail.com> I have a Basis (apple ][ clone) with a cpm card built on the main board?. George > On Oct 21, 2018, at 11:09 AM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > > I'd heard, but have no sources for said hearsay, that the most common CP/M > machine in volume was the Apple II. > > There were definitely knockoffs of the Microsoft Z80 Softcard. One of my > IIe systems has one from SPACE BYTE, the other is no-name. I've personally > seen more knockoffs than actual Microsoft cards. The two I have currently > are definitely "photocopy" type knockoff/clone cards, the layout is nearly > identical to the real Microsoft card I've got. That of course doesn't speak > for what was actually deployed. > > Some Apple II compatibles also came with CP/M compatibility out of the box, > I don't personally know if that was MS Z80 Softcard compatible or something > else. > > Thanks, > Jonathan > > On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 5:54 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > >>>> The Softcard was a Z-80 based single-board >>>> computer >> >> On Sat, 20 Oct 2018, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: >>> It wasn't. It was only a processor card. >>> No version of the Softcard had it's own video output. It used normal >> Apple >>> video output. If you wanted 80x24, you had to use a separate third-party >>> 80-column card, or (later) and Apple IIe, IIc, IIc+, or IIgs. >>> I'm not sure what you're referring to by "etc.", but the vast majority of >>> Softcards and their clones did not have their own RAM, and used that of >> the >>> Apple II. >>> The PCPI Applicard and it's clones had their own RAM. Some very late >> models >>> of the Softcard had their own RAM. >> >> I remember hearing, at one point, a statement (not necessarily reliable), >> that said that 20% of Apple computers had a Softcard. >> What was the approximate percentage in 1980/1981, when IBM contacted >> Microsoft? >> (or number that had been sold, which would include ones not actually in >> use) >> >> What was the PEAK percentage? >> (or number that had been sold, which would include ones not actually in >> use) >> >> Were there other brands, or imitations, available then (1980/1981)? >> >> Later, what percentage were imitations? >> >> Speculatively, how much were they used V use of the machine in non-Z80 >> ways? (How many people bought it just ot have the capability, without >> necessarily being active CP/M users?) >> >> >> This is definitely not the first time that I have heard that IBM had >> assumed that CP/M was a Microsoft product. >> >> >> >> From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 22 01:16:38 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 23:16:38 -0700 Subject: 1970s CDC disk drive (Craigslist, Washington DC) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4a08a6e0-6ec2-2d5e-b13b-016696346eb2@sydex.com> On 10/21/18 7:12 PM, Ken Shirriff via cctalk wrote: > Someone pointed out this CDC disk drive on Craigslist in the Washington DC > area: > https://washingtondc.craigslist.org/mld/zip/d/early-computer-era-rolling/6728728220.html > > I have no connection to this, and don't know anything about it, but figured > someone on cctalk might want to pick it up, rather than it getting scrapped. > Looks like a 9746. --Chuck From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Mon Oct 22 02:41:57 2018 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 07:41:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: 1970s CDC disk drive (Craigslist, Washington DC) References: <2086812005.21074629.1540194117042.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2086812005.21074629.1540194117042@mail.yahoo.com> it's too bad that I am on the other side of the great pond . I would have been very interested in it :-( Pierre ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de -------------------------------------------- Chuck Guzis via cctalk schrieb am Mo, 22.10.2018: Betreff: Re: 1970s CDC disk drive (Craigslist, Washington DC) An: "Ken Shirriff via cctalk" Datum: Montag, 22. Oktober, 2018 08:16 Uhr On 10/21/18 7:12 PM, Ken Shirriff via cctalk wrote: > Someone pointed out this CDC disk drive on Craigslist in the Washington DC > area: > https://washingtondc.craigslist.org/mld/zip/d/early-computer-era-rolling/6728728220.html > > I have no connection to this, and don't know anything about it, but figured > someone on cctalk might want to pick it up, rather than it getting scrapped. > Looks like a 9746. --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Mon Oct 22 08:44:45 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 15:44:45 +0200 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <04d101d467bf$e271cbb0$a7556310$@verizon.net> <32cf2e38-c3ab-1589-bdae-2bc0dadc174b@bitsavers.org> <04f001d467d6$023188d0$06949a70$@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Oct 2018 at 12:55, Adam Sampson via cctalk wrote: > > Do you mean sold up to that point? Amstrad went on to sell several > million PCWs with CP/M later in the 1980s. (They say 8 million on > http://www.amstrad.com/products/archive/, but that includes the > much less popular PCW16 which wasn't a CP/M machine.) I was going to make the same cavil. :-) The PCW was wildly successful, but not in the USA, and USAnians tend to forget about anything that wasn't big in their own country. I think the PCWs were also the only widely-successful CP/M *3* computers. Although to be fair I suspect that many users never left LocoScript. Certainly some of my acquaintance were astonished to learn that they had the option to upgrade to LocoScript 2 (8*** series owners) or 3 / 4 (8*** & 9*** series owners). I think mostly just people who bought additional printers learned that. Poor marketing by Locomotive, sadly. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 22 08:54:31 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 06:54:31 -0700 Subject: Data books available in Aachen Message-ID: I received this message this morning, if someone in Germany would like a data book collection "The computer club at the RWTH Aachen University has to move from a larger collection of semiconductor data books. These are 2..3 steel cabinets full of data books of various manufacturers, for which there is no more space in the new premises. I have seen your website and that you are dealing with the archiving / digitization of such books. Would you be interested in taking over this data book inventory? You would otherwise have to go to the waste paper ..." -- From: Alfred Arnold Guten Tag, der Computerclub an der RWTH Aachen mu? sich im Zuge eines Umzugs von einer gr??eren Sammlung an Halbleiter-Datenb?chern trennen. Dabei handelt es sich um 2..3 Stahlschr?nke voll von Datenb?chern verschiedenster Hersteller, f?r die in den neuen R?umlichkeiten kein Platz mehr ist. Ich habe Ihre Webseite gesehen und da? Sie sich mit der Archivierung/Digitalisierung solcher B?cher besch?ftigen. Best?nde eventuell Interesse an der ?bernahme dieses Datenbuch-Bestandes? Sie m??ten wohl ansonsten ins Altpapier gehen... Viele Gr??e Alfred Arnold -- Alfred Arnold E-Mail: alfred at ccac.rwth-aachen.de Computer Club at the http://john.ccac.rwth-aachen.de:8000/alf/ Technical University Phone: +49-241-406526 of Aachen From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Mon Oct 22 09:01:10 2018 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 14:01:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Data books available in Aachen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <915167831.21561509.1540216870371@mail.yahoo.com> Hi Al, I work at the RWTH Aachen and will contact him. I'd be happy to save the books from being thrown away. All the best, Pierre ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de Am Montag, 22. Oktober 2018, 15:54:28 MESZ hat Al Kossow via cctalk Folgendes geschrieben: I received this message this morning, if someone in Germany would like a data book collection "The computer club at the RWTH Aachen University has to move from a larger collection of semiconductor data books. These are 2..3 steel cabinets full of data books of various manufacturers, for which there is no more space in the new premises. I have seen your website and that you are dealing with the archiving / digitization of such books. Would you be interested in taking over this data book inventory? You would otherwise have to go to the waste paper ..." -- From: Alfred Arnold Guten Tag, der Computerclub an der RWTH Aachen mu? sich im Zuge eines Umzugs von einer gr??eren Sammlung an Halbleiter-Datenb?chern trennen.? Dabei handelt es sich um 2..3 Stahlschr?nke voll von Datenb?chern verschiedenster Hersteller, f?r die in den neuen R?umlichkeiten kein Platz mehr ist. Ich habe Ihre Webseite gesehen und da? Sie sich mit der Archivierung/Digitalisierung solcher B?cher besch?ftigen.? Best?nde eventuell Interesse an der ?bernahme dieses Datenbuch-Bestandes?? Sie m??ten wohl ansonsten ins Altpapier gehen... Viele Gr??e Alfred Arnold -- Alfred Arnold? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? E-Mail: alfred at ccac.rwth-aachen.de Computer Club at the? ? ? ? ? ? http://john.ccac.rwth-aachen.de:8000/alf/ Technical University? ? ? ? ? ? Phone: +49-241-406526 of Aachen From lproven at gmail.com Mon Oct 22 09:14:34 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 16:14:34 +0200 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Oct 2018 at 19:31, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > Oooh. My personal recollection about w95 is that there was a lot of > touting before the premiere day, how advanced it was because "object > oriented operating system". The premiere came, the toutings quickly > faded away, never heard any kind of objection about this aspect. I, > for quite long time, had been thinking W95 was a scam because for the > life of me I could not spot any sign of its object-orientedness (and > there was nothing else interesting enough to make me want to tinker > with this... something). I think the explanation for that is fairly clearly there in the history. NT 3.1 came soon after Windows 3. After the OS/2 "divorce" from IBM, MS ran its 2 big OS projects, Chicago and Cairo, more or less in parallel. Cairo was next-gen NT, Chicago was next-gen Windows 3, at that point intended to be "Windows 4". Cairo started to fall behind schedule very early. So more effort was given over to Chicago. A fair bit of the ambitious UI work for Cairo made its way over to Chicago. Cairo was intended to be semi "object oriented", with a database-oriented filesystem (something Be did better in BeOS' BFS). That never happened, but the object-based (rather than folder- or drive-based) system browser made it over to Chicago. The Explorer, as it came to be known, uses several "virtual folders" -- "My Computer", "Network Neighbourhood". "Control Panel" etc. These have no location in the filesystem, you can't manually put anything in them or delete anything -- they only appear in Explorer, automatically populated with stuff _drawn_ from the filesystem or the Registry. Those are the vestiges of the Cairo object system. In itself, these things are vestigial remainder of concepts in NeXTstep, Xerox Smalltalk, HP NewWave and so on. By this stage, the real meaning has been forgotten, and "object oriented" has become a buzzword meaning, vaguely, that the user manipulates "objects" which may not genuinely exist as files or folders in the filesystem. They're virtual entities, generated by the OS on the fly. > It was only years later that it finally came > to me: I might have been one of the very few people who not only > understood some of the buzzwords but also was duped into believing > there should be some substance behind them (which maybe makes me > exceptional, just not in a good way). There was substance behind them once. But, in a pattern that is very typical of the development of the digital computer, especially microcomputers, the evolution goes like this: [1] someone, probably an academic, invents a new concept [2] someone else tries to implement it, finds it hard, and has to bodge it in some way -- with hardware extensions, or an abstraction layer, or faking it up and presenting it as if it were real [3] (a) another company copies the general idea but, lacking the conceptual underpinning, simplifies it into near-meaninglessness ... or... [3] (b) the other company finds a much quicker, simpler way to implement it, such as by doing it in cheap software rather than expensive hardware, or by some clever hack to another part of the system. Examples to illustrate my point: [a] Microsoft decided to add an RDBMS to its new OS. (It's not integrated from the start, like in Pick.) [b] It talks widely about some of the things this will enable, such as querying the filesystem like querying a database rather than iteratively searching [c] Be builds a new OS from scratch, and free from legacy compatibility restrictions, designs a filesystem with extensible, queryable attributes, thus achieving MS' goal with no database involved. [d] Apple fakes the end result of this by hacking a file-modification-watching daemon into its Unix, enabling the daemon to maintain an index for the whole filesystem. That in turn enables near-instant searching, without needing a whole new filesystem. [e] Microsoft having now been comprehensively outdone, abandons its database-in-the-filesystem idea and tries to bolt-on a filesystem indexer -- but because its OS is far more widely-used by a far broader range of hardware and software, it can't do the low-level hackery necessary without breaking legions of 3rd party apps, so the MS implementation is poor and takes years & multiple product generations to get working. It's a sort of horrible sequel (see what I did there?) to the Osborne Effect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect > Nowadays, I consider W95 as very interesting subject of study - a > technical product of non-technical genius(es) (ok, if there were tech > geniuses involved in its making, I would say it does not show up). I strongly disagree. (And I am no Microsoft apologist!) On the one hand, the cosmetics. *Every* Unix desktop out there draws on Win95. The Win95 Explorer re-wrote the book on OS UI design. The _only_ company to resist was Apple, because of course, some of the reasons that Win95 is the way it is are attempts to do things differently from Apple so as not to get sued. Look at other contemporaries of the original MacOS -- DR GEM, especially Atari ST GEM, and Amiga OS -- and you'll see how they very clearly draw from MacOS. And DR did get sued and PC GEM was crippled as a result. MS, a few orders of magnitude bigger, had to avoid this. Secondly, the tech. Look at Raymond Chen's "old new thing" blog and other sources for the tech brilliance that led to Windows 3. Consider how very compatible 95 was with DOS drivers and Win3 apps. That was some virtuoso stuff. OS/2 (especially 2.x but also later), by comparison, was vastly less compatible and vastly less stable, with big performance-sapping chunks of 16-bit code, including the filesystem -- which even Windows for Workgroups 3.11 replaced! -- it single input queue and so on. OS/2 was and is a pig to install, to maintain, to update, it wasn't very compatible with anything else, was totally incompatible with DOS and Windows drivers, and wasn't all that stable. And its UI was ugly and clunky, IMHO. Win95 was astonishingly compatible, both with DOS drivers and apps, and with Windows 3 drivers, and yet it was 32-bit in the important places, delivered true preemptive multitasking, reasonably fast virtual memory, integrated networking, integrated Internet access, and a radical, clean, elegant UI which *every single OS after it* has copied. > It > took a lot of manipulation and wind sniffing to make it such a big > success, and plenty of intellectual indolence from rivals and > customers. Not really, no! There honestly wasn't anything to compare or compete with it. Linux was very primitive and clunky back then. OS/2 wasn't much better. NT took years to catch up, only really getting there in 2000 and still needing massively more hardware. 95 was an industry-transforming product, bringing much of the user-level power and elegance of the Mac to the COTS PC platform. Consider the anecdote about the swan: http://www.horebinternational.com/the-swan-metaphor/ "BE LIKE A SWAN GRACEFUL BUT FURIOUSLY PADDLING BELOW THE SURFACE" Considering the layers of hacks below the surface, Win9x was amazingly stable and reliable, and used by more people than all iterations of all other GUI OSes of the times up to then put together. It spawned the entire industry of media-capable Internet-connected home/entertainment computers. I'm amazed as a confirmed MS skeptic that I have to defend it like this, I must say! -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From jim.manley at gmail.com Mon Oct 22 09:27:29 2018 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 08:27:29 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <04d101d467bf$e271cbb0$a7556310$@verizon.net> <32cf2e38-c3ab-1589-bdae-2bc0dadc174b@bitsavers.org> <04f001d467d6$023188d0$06949a70$@verizon.net> Message-ID: [ Accidentally only sent to Eric originally ] On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 3:41 PM Eric Smith wrote: > On Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 01:46 Jim Manley via cctalk > wrote: > >> The Softcard was a Z-80 based single-board >> computer > > > It wasn't. It was only a processor card. > Eric, I'm going to stand by my assertion that the Softcard was a single-board computer on the technicality that it did have its own RAM - you apparently forget that registers are a form of RAM - HA! They're memory, they're addressed over a bus (that just happens to be within the microprocessor), and you can directly access any register at any time (random access). As for I/O, that's what the Apple ][ bus was for, right? As Opus from Bloom County, among other comic characters, was known to utter, "PBBBBBBTTTTTT!!! ? Microsoft did offer a RAM expansion board specifically to allow the Softcard to access 64K of RAM dedicated to CP/M, and the Premium Softcard //e provided on-board RAM to CP/M for the Apple //e, as you noted. All models of the Softcard could output 80 x 24 text, not only through third-party cards, but Apple's own 64K RAM and 80 x 24 video combo card, which was often offered in packages, especially through dealers that supported business customers (that's how my system came delivered). The "etc." I mentioned was the functionality provided through the glueware logic on the Softcard that enabled RAM and 80 x 24 text output, as well as other I/O over the Apple ][ slots bus. When I was in the Navy, our ship called at HMS Tamar in Hong Kong, and I followed verbal directions (26 stops on the then-new subway under the harbor into the New Territories) to the basement level of a shopping center. There, I found clones of everything from Apple ][s and //es to every expansion board and peripheral available in the early 1980s, including both the original Softcard and the Premium Softcard //e. Everything came complete with the floppy disks and every page of the documentation, not just photocopied, but professionally typeset and offset-printed. In your missing-the-forest-for-the-trees response, you completely missed the point of my post - that the Softcard was an extremely important early product for Microsoft, the critical connection between the Softcard and the QDOS prototype for x86 MS/PC-DOS, through Seattle Computer Products, and that the number of CP/M licenses was much larger on Apple computers than S-100 systems. For those that cited the Amstrad systems, I was referring to the S-100 and Softcard timeframe. CP/M was only provided with the Amstrad CPC664 and 6128 floppy-disk based models, and the DDI-1 disk expansion unit for the 464 (only CP/M 2.2 with the 664, and 2.2 and 3.1 with the 6128). The Amstrads came along four years after the Softcard was introduced, and three years after the release of the IBM PC. By that time, Digital Research's influence had faded into insignificance, despite the full release of CP/M-86 within six months of the IBM PC's debut (albeit at six times the price of MS/PC-DOS). I do know that CP/M was used in European banking systems well into the late 1990s, mostly because it wasn't broken and didn't need to be "fixed". It probably would have remained in use well past 1999 if it weren't for Y2K's impetus for massive upgrades to current technology for 2000 and beyond. All the Best, Jim On Sat, Oct 20, 2018 at 3:41 PM Eric Smith wrote: > On Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 01:46 Jim Manley via cctalk > wrote: > >> The Softcard was a Z-80 based single-board >> computer > > > It wasn't. It was only a processor card. > > that plugged into an Apple ][ slot, equipped with its own >> 80x24 character x line black-and-white video output, > > > No version of the Softcard had it's own video output. It used normal Apple > video output. If you wanted 80x24, you had to use a separate third-party > 80-column card, or (later) and Apple IIe, IIc, IIc+, or IIgs. > > RAM, etc., >> > > I'm not sure what you're referring to by "etc.", but the vast majority of > Softcards and their clones did not have their own RAM, and used that of the > Apple II. > > The PCPI Applicard and it's clones had their own RAM. Some very late > models of the Softcard had their own RAM. > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Oct 22 09:38:14 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 10:38:14 -0400 Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: While we are on the subject of Rolm I was curious and found in my docs library a Rolm 1601 Sales brochure with some tech info/parts/prices. Heavy duty machines for sure. Bill On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 2:25 PM Erik Baigar via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Hi Paul, thanks for your reply - good to see that there are still guys out > there who worked with this heavy iron. So you have been in the UK while > working with the Rolm? I guess it was a 1602B or later and pesumably some > airborne early warning stuff? Best wishes, Erik. > > Am 21. Oktober 2018 03:12:52 GMT-06:00 schrieb Paul Anderson via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org>: > >I was at the DG factory school at Southbourgh in 76 or 77, and worked > >on a > >ROLM NOVA while at RAF Chicksands in the late 70s. Unfortunately, my EX > >through out all of the manuals, prints, etc along with a complete set > >of > >SAGE (ANFSQ-7) docs. > > > >Paul > > > >On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 3:38 AM Thomas Hollowell via cctalk < > >cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> Hi Eric, > >> My name is Tom Hollowell. I took the US support of Rolm in 1998. PWA > >> assumed the international. I noticed that you have some ROLM > >hardware. I > >> may be interested in finding out what you have. > >> Let me know, > >> Thanks, > >> Tom > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > > -- > > From lproven at gmail.com Mon Oct 22 09:48:52 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 16:48:52 +0200 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: <8bc15dce-8eb8-5d3a-3e44-e7dd56f5f4e6@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <1668d51c0e5-1ec1-1321@webjas-vae054.srv.aolmail.net> <8bc15dce-8eb8-5d3a-3e44-e7dd56f5f4e6@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Oct 2018 at 21:01, ben via cctalk wrote: > Is just me, but is keyboad input geting slower and slower on web stuff, > even the old 110 buad tty gave better response running under a PDP/8. https://danluu.com/input-lag/ Summary: no, it's not just you. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Oct 22 09:52:00 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 16:52:00 +0200 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: References: <5BC9FB17.90304@cimmeri.com> <20181019155919.EF8714E7D2@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Oct 2018 at 12:50, Yvan Janssens via cctalk wrote: > > So, I have built a USB adapter for my 5150?s keyboard. The experience is > actually quite bad, as stated earlier. The main reason why I still use it > is because I took it with me from Belgium - it?s a French keyboard, and > having access to all the special characters makes typing in eg. French, > German or Spanish so much easier in the odd cases I have to. I use a Compose key. Built in to Linux, easy to add to Windows. Thus my UK-layout IBM Model M has every international character it's possible to type. I can type ? la Fran?ais as easily as I can v ?estina, tady v K?i??kova. > For my main daily driver I just use a Unicomp PC5250. Like others said, new > keyboards based on the original mechanisms perform so much better. Tried one (belonging to list member Peter Corlett). I find the original Real Thing? _far_ better than the modern reproductions. I think he will agree with me. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From erik at baigar.de Mon Oct 22 09:53:58 2018 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 08:53:58 -0600 Subject: Rolm Computers: 1602, 1602A, 1602B, 1666, MSExx (was Data General Nova Star Trek) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Bill, thanks for your reply. It would be cool to see this brochure - can you put it on a scanner? So you did not work with those yourself? Thanks again, Erik. Am 22. Oktober 2018 08:38:14 GMT-06:00 schrieb Bill Degnan : >While we are on the subject of Rolm I was curious and found in my docs >library a Rolm 1601 Sales brochure with some tech info/parts/prices. >Heavy >duty machines for sure. >Bill > > >On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 2:25 PM Erik Baigar via cctalk < >cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >> Hi Paul, thanks for your reply - good to see that there are still >guys out >> there who worked with this heavy iron. So you have been in the UK >while >> working with the Rolm? I guess it was a 1602B or later and pesumably >some >> airborne early warning stuff? Best wishes, Erik. >> >> Am 21. Oktober 2018 03:12:52 GMT-06:00 schrieb Paul Anderson via >cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org>: >> >I was at the DG factory school at Southbourgh in 76 or 77, and >worked >> >on a >> >ROLM NOVA while at RAF Chicksands in the late 70s. Unfortunately, my >EX >> >through out all of the manuals, prints, etc along with a complete >set >> >of >> >SAGE (ANFSQ-7) docs. >> > >> >Paul >> > >> >On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 3:38 AM Thomas Hollowell via cctalk < >> >cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> > >> >> Hi Eric, >> >> My name is Tom Hollowell. I took the US support of Rolm in 1998. >PWA >> >> assumed the international. I noticed that you have some ROLM >> >hardware. I >> >> may be interested in finding out what you have. >> >> Let me know, >> >> Thanks, >> >> Tom >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> -- >> >> -- Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android-Ger?t mit K-9 Mail gesendet. From lproven at gmail.com Mon Oct 22 10:03:19 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 17:03:19 +0200 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <04d101d467bf$e271cbb0$a7556310$@verizon.net> <32cf2e38-c3ab-1589-bdae-2bc0dadc174b@bitsavers.org> <04f001d467d6$023188d0$06949a70$@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 at 16:28, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: > > I'm going to stand by my assertion that the Softcard was a single-board > computer on the technicality that it did have its own RAM - you apparently > forget that registers are a form of RAM - HA! They're memory, they're > addressed over a bus (that just happens to be within the microprocessor), > and you can directly access any register at any time (random access). As > for I/O, that's what the Apple ][ bus was for, right? As Opus from Bloom > County, among other comic characters, was known to utter, > "PBBBBBBTTTTTT!!! Heh. Nice attempt at hair-splitting but I think you missed. ;-) > > For those that cited the Amstrad systems, I was referring to the S-100 and > Softcard timeframe. But you didn't _say_ that. > > CP/M was only provided with the Amstrad CPC664 and > 6128 floppy-disk based models, and the DDI-1 disk expansion unit for the > 464 (only CP/M 2.2 with the 664, and 2.2 and 3.1 with the 6128). Nope. It was an option for the CPC series of colour-capable home computers, yes. But it was supplied *as standard* with the PCW 8000 & 9000 series of monochrome-only "personal computer wordprocessors". You got 2 boot disks in the box: one with LocoScript, the dedicated Amstrad PCW word processor (albeit later ported to, or rather rewritten, for IBM-compatibles), and one with CP/M 3. CP/M was the _only_ general-purpose OS for the PCWs. (Excluding the later, unsuccessful, PcW 16.) They had no ROM and no ROM BASIC or anything else. I think they were the last CP/M machines of any significance, first released in 1985, well into the MS-DOS era. Nonetheless they were hugely successful in their time and there were quite a few CP/M apps released that only ran on the PCWs, directly driving their 720*256 res screen in graphics mode or a few in 90*32 text mode. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Oct 22 10:33:56 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 09:33:56 -0600 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <04d101d467bf$e271cbb0$a7556310$@verizon.net> <32cf2e38-c3ab-1589-bdae-2bc0dadc174b@bitsavers.org> <04f001d467d6$023188d0$06949a70$@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 02:36 Jim Manley wrote: Microsoft did offer a RAM expansion board specifically to allow the Softcard to access 64K of RAM dedicated to CP/M, Even that wasn't dedicated to CP/M. It was a 16K RAM card that was equivalent to the Apple "Language Card", which allowed replacing the 12K of ROM of the Apple II and II+ with 16K of RAM, of which 4K had two banks. Although it was useful with the Softcard, it wasn't in any way specific to it. All models of the Softcard could output 80 x 24 text, not only through third-party cards, but Apple's own 64K RAM and 80 x 24 video combo card, Which was only available for the IIe. I stand by my assertion that the Softcard did not in any way provide 80x24 text. It could use the capability if it was separately provided. From rickb at bensene.com Mon Oct 22 11:57:56 2018 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 09:57:56 -0700 Subject: Desktop Metaphor Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> Liam Proven wrote: >On the one hand, the cosmetics. *Every* Unix desktop out there draws >on Win95. I take exception to the "*Every*" in Liam's statement above. Replacing "Unix" with "Linux" would make the statement more correct. X-Windows-based desktop metaphor UI's existed within the Unix world long before Win95 came on the scene. The whole desktop metaphor UI existed long before Windows 95 in non-Unix implementations by Xerox PARC (Palo Alto Research Center) with the pioneering Xerox Alto, introduced in 1973, which implemented Alan Kay's concepts for the desktop metaphor that were postulated in 1970 using Smalltalk as the core operating system. Windows 95, and the earlier versions of Microsoft's desktop metaphor UI's, were patterned after these implementations. Microsoft simply took concepts that already existed in the world of UI design, and made their own implementation based on those concepts. -Rick -- Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Oct 22 14:19:37 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 13:19:37 -0600 Subject: Desktop Metaphor In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/22/2018 10:57 AM, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: > X-Windows-based desktop metaphor UI's existed within the Unix world long before Win95 came on the scene. > The whole desktop metaphor UI existed long before Windows 95 in non-Unix implementations by Xerox PARC (Palo Alto Research Center) with the pioneering Xerox Alto, introduced in 1973, which implemented Alan Kay's concepts for the desktop metaphor that were postulated in 1970 using Smalltalk as the core operating system. That may be true but DOS/WINDOWS and APPLE II all had TV display output formats, now it is WIDE SCREEN ONLY. From what little I have seen about the Alto, you had a full sized 8x10? page format. The printed page DOES matter for graphic displays. Try and find a printed page size PDF reader, or one a tad smaller. Reading a PDF on a KINDLE DOES NOT WORK. I suspect a good PDF reader, a not tablet, is needed often for all the online doc's at places like bit savers to get the knowledge close to a classic computer. I hate GUI's,because I hate ICON's. I see a little hand popup, is a mouse pointer,stop that sign, or play feel the naked photo. Ben. From g-wright at att.net Mon Oct 22 14:34:40 2018 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 19:34:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: DG Eclipse S-130 Front Panel Needed References: <1745702285.1531456.1540236880307.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1745702285.1531456.1540236880307@mail.yahoo.com> I just rescued? a? DG S-130 from a scrapper.?? The rack was being pulled out of a trailer with a Excavator.? So the nice rack and the? hard drive where crushed.? The S-130 seems to be repairable, with? mostly sheet metal damage. The? front panels where both crushed. I would guess these are hard to come by? ??? but I thought I would at least ask if anyone had a spare they would part with. I'm guessing its a S-130? by the blue and white front panel and switches. The upper front panel which has the Model number is missing. Not sure? how to read the? Label on the back. It? has 8461 after the model. Thanks, Jerry From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Oct 22 15:54:36 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 14:54:36 -0600 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <1bba29ea-7dd5-c074-8df5-fb16ba2e94a2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 10/22/2018 08:14 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > *Every* Unix desktop out there draws on Win95. Nope. That's simply not true. The following three vast families of window managers / desktops prove (to my satisfaction) that your statement is wrong. ? Common Desktop Environment (a.k.a. CDE) and it's ilk. ? The various *Box window managers / desktop environments. ? Motif window manager and it's ilk. They are all significantly different from each other and from Windows's Explorer interface, first publicly debuting with Windows 95. > The Win95 Explorer re-wrote the book on OS UI design. "A" book, maybe. I don't think it was "the" book. > The _only_ company to resist was Apple, because of course, some of the > reasons that Win95 is the way it is are attempts to do things differently > from Apple so as not to get sued. I think /company/ is critical in that statement as it implies for profit business which excludes many other non-business related options. Even then, IBM, Sun, HP, etc were releasing commercial Unixes with CDE and / or Motif after Windows 95. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Oct 22 15:56:38 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 14:56:38 -0600 Subject: Desktop Metaphor In-Reply-To: <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <584daf47-9a37-362f-879e-03551ffab84a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 10/22/2018 01:19 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > I hate GUI's,because I hate ICON's. I see a little hand popup, is a > mouse pointer,stop that sign, or play feel the naked photo. It's perfectly possible to use GUIs without any icons. It's possible to use GUIs without a mouse. The GUI is not responsible for what people do with them / the mouse. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Oct 22 16:13:16 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 15:13:16 -0600 Subject: Desktop Metaphor In-Reply-To: <584daf47-9a37-362f-879e-03551ffab84a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <584daf47-9a37-362f-879e-03551ffab84a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <19570e24-0ceb-62d7-27b9-95047d62e022@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/22/2018 2:56 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 10/22/2018 01:19 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >> I hate GUI's,because I hate ICON's. I see a little hand popup, is a >> mouse pointer,stop that sign, or play feel the naked photo. > > It's perfectly possible to use GUIs without any icons. > > It's possible to use GUIs without a mouse. > > The GUI is not responsible for what people do with them / the mouse. > What do you call the TEXT based mouse interface, like found on some dos shells. GUI I think of is the pure graphics. Ben. From jim.manley at gmail.com Mon Oct 22 16:40:47 2018 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 15:40:47 -0600 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: Hi Liam, On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 8:15 AM Liam Proven via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Cairo was intended to be semi "object oriented" ... > This reference to "object-oriented" is way off, conflating GUI "objects" and true object-oriented software. OO in code has nothing to do with manipulating virtual objects (desktops, icons for folders, documents by type, trash cans, etc.). It's a combination of attributes supported by programming languages, such as classes, methods, encapsulation, abstraction, inheritance, polymorphism, composition, delegation, etc. Even Ivan Sutherland's 1960 - 1961 Sketchpad truly implemented object-oriented design at both the GUI and code levels, despite being developed for the discrete-transistor MIT Lincoln Lab TX-2, with all of 64 K-words (36-bit word length) of discrete-transistor memory. > Win95 was astonishingly compatible, both with DOS drivers and apps, > and with Windows 3 drivers, and yet it was 32-bit in the important > places, delivered true preemptive multitasking, reasonably fast > virtual memory, integrated networking, integrated Internet access, and > a radical, clean, elegant UI which *every single OS after it* has > copied. > Ummmm ... no. You're apparently completely uninformed about MIT Project Athena, aka The X Window System, or X11, or just X, for short, and no, it's not plural. The latter is ironic, because MS Windows only supports one windowing desktop per user, while X Window not only supports multiple desktops per user (each with its own context that can be swapped in to occupy the display area), but natively supports remote desktop access from a number of users over networks (MS Windows still doesn't support this). While the early aesthetics of X's icons, windows, widgets, etc., are just what you'd expect some harried engineer to cobble together well after midnight the date of a major early release, the underlying technology was light years ahead of what MS spent decades screwing around with (per your description of the dead ends). Unfortunately, X, as well as other earlier GUI systems, was bitmap-based, and still is, so, the aesthetics haven't been improved over the past three-plus decades it's been around, despite incredible advances in graphics hardware, which was designed from the ground up to largely support floating-point computations necessary for 3-D and advanced 2-D graphics. Interestingly, the Raspberry Pi Foundation has found it necessary to spend a considerable amount of its meager resources (compared with those in commercial developers' piggy banks, emphasis on the "piggy") to GPU hardware accelerate X, that its Debian-based Raspbian OS uses for its GUI (the changes to open-source code are released upstream to benefit the entire Debian community). 99% of the die area on a Pi's system-on-a-chip (SoC) is the GPU, which is what boots on power-up. The ARM CPU in the SoC was originally included as just a traffic cop for shoveling video data coming in from the Ethernet port and routed to the GPU for decoding and generation of HD video signals in Roku 2 streaming media boxes. The acceleration included conversion from the integer bit-mapped representations used in X to floating-point data structures on which the GPU is designed to primarily operate. When you're limited to one GB of RAM, your CPUs are RISC-based, and the CPUs' clock speed is limited to 1.4 GHz, you need all the help you can get. BTW, MacOS X is based on Mach, the version of Unix that was designed for multiple, closely-coupled processors, and it, too, uses X as a basis for its GUI. Even in its early days, the Mac graphics system had a lot to admire. When the Mac II brought color video and full 32-bit processing to the product line, the OS was very cleverly provided a single System32 extension file that only had to be dropped into the System folder to make older black-and-white-only, 16-bit external-to-the-microprocessor (even the 68000 is 32-bit internally) Macs compatible with the new 32-bit, color-based graphics architecture. No changes were necessary to applications, with colors merely mapped to dithered patterns of black-and-white pixels having equivalent luminance as the colors on the older hardware. As for multitasking, even Windows 10 can easily get bogged down where the GUI becomes essentially unresponsive to user actions. MS has never grasped that it should never be possible to wind up in a situation where the user is stuck watching a rainbow-colored wheel spin, while some set of tasks consumes pretty much every clock cycle on every core, and the user can't even shift context away from whatever is hogging the system. Other than completing a valid low-level task, such as flushing queues to large-capacity storage, the user should always be in control of what the foreground process with highest precedence is. Loading ads from an incoming network connection for products and services, that the user has absolutely no interest in, is never higher than the lowest-precedence task. It's pretty obvious that advertising business deals abrogate that user-centric edict, where making yet-more bucks on the user's back is considered the highest priority. One reason that Apple has never had a problem with users being dispassionate about its products and services is that, when a new employee starts at the company at any level, they spend their first week, or so, in a user experience (UX, aka usability) lab, as soon as the HR paperwork is done. They're given a set of goals to accomplish on a new product/service or revision, and video is taken of the display and of them. They're then interviewed by UX folks to find out why they did certain things to accomplish a goal, even where goals were inserted to provide enjoyable breaks from more serious work. By observing and interacting with people from all walks of life and levels of experience, they've been able to build a huge treasure trove of why people do things, which sometimes are just "It seemed like a good idea at the time." A year or so before Steve Jobs passed away, Bill Gates was asked why MS bailed out Apple in 1996, when Steve returned and Apple was within a few months of not being able to make payroll. He flatly stated that Apple's products and services were great inspirations to MS and they couldn't let such a valuable source of R&D disappear (and that Apple customers had paid for ... a lot). He also knew that the key people at Apple would never work for MS, and would rather take their chances with a startup than wind up in an org chart that involved being anywhere below Steve Ballmer. They didn't really need any more money that badly, anyway - Apple made a lot of very talented people very rich. It also didn't hurt that MS was going to get access to Apple's patent portfolio for some time, either, and would benefit significantly in a financial way when, not if, Apple rebounded. Steve and Bill were actually pretty good friends when out of sight of everyone else, while also being extremely fierce competitors in public. None of this is to say that Apple has always been right and MS has always been wrong - far from it. Steve was infamous for saying that Apple would never do certain things, often for years ... until they did. He even went as far as to construct major logical arguments against them in keynotes ... and then blew up those arguments in the keynote address the following year, albeit usually by defeating a Kobayashi Maru scenario by changing the rules. The iPhone was the best example of this - after swearing there would never be an iPhone for years, they actually shipped the original version, not only without an elegant copy/paste mechanism, but no means of performing copy/paste at all for the first year, let alone not provided a means for anyone outside Apple and its partners to create native apps. They hadn't gotten copy/paste right, and weren't going to deliver something they weren't as proud of as their first-born children. This would have been suicide for any other company, but Steve held the helm steady, with customers believing that Apple would make things right, and they did, eventually, in spades. It was recently revealed that Steve was the most surprised person on the planet when the App Store not only surpassed their wildest dreams, but just kept growing, still with no end in sight today. I'm guessing that there was a knock-down, drag-out fight, where he wound up placing a sword of Damacles over the head of whomever disagreed with him about it if it didn't succeed. When Steve Wozniak appeared on stage with Jack Tramiel to celebrate the 30th anniversary of the launch of the Commodore 64, it was noted that Commodore had acquired MOS Technology, manufacturer of the 6502 microprocessor used in Apple's products. When asked why Commodore didn't constrain the supply of 6502s to Apple, its arch-rival at the time, Jack replied, "The middle name of Commodore Business Machines is Business, and a good businessman doesn't screw his best customer. We actually made more profits from the 6502 than we did from the C-64, despite the much larger revenue associated with the latter." The Woz was then challenged about Commodore 64 sales far exceeding those of Apple ][ and //e models, and he replied, "At Apple, we were always in it for the long haul. What has Commodore sold lately?" Commodore, of course, had long since gone bankrupt. It's hard to believe that 6502-based Apple models sold for an incredible 16 years - imagine that happening today. Of course, we can't - the world is unrecognizable today, in terms of 6502-based computing. Now, the House that iPod/iTunes/iPhone/iPad Built has been the first to achieve a sustained 13-digit market capitalization valuation. All that, without the ugliness of having to sign a consent decree for abusing market power through illegal shenanigans, on top of claiming that a browser couldn't be divorced from an OS ... and just that was then demonstrated in front of the presiding judge and the world ... oops. All the Best, Jim From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 22 16:54:06 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 14:54:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Oct 2018, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: > windowing desktop per user, while X Window not only supports multiple > desktops per user (each with its own context that can be swapped in to > occupy the display area), but natively supports remote desktop access from > a number of users over networks (MS Windows still doesn't support this). > MS Windows has supported multiple desktops either through native OS features or via 3rd party utility since Windows 95. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Oct 22 16:59:29 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 14:59:29 -0700 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <855B45E8-51C2-480E-B89A-5D33E683CBDE@shiresoft.com> Some corrections related to Mach and Apple. TTFN - Guy > On Oct 22, 2018, at 2:40 PM, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: > > > > BTW, MacOS X is based on Mach, the version of Unix that was designed for > multiple, closely-coupled processors, and it, too, uses X as a basis for > its GUI. No. Mach is a microkernel based system that split apart BSD into ?kernel? portions and Unix portions. It really didn?t have anything to do with SMP as the premise behind Mach (which was a furthering of Accent) was message passing between tasks. I can dig up the original papers if anyone is interested. ;-) OS X does *not* use X as the basis of its GUI. It stems from NEXT which used display postscript (modern OS X uses display PDF). An (optional) X server (and clients) can be added to the OS (I use them all the time) but is not part of the base install which belies the comment of X as the basis of the GUI. BTW, the X server on OS X, interfaces not to the bit-map but instead to the native OS X display rendering framework. TTFN - Guy From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Oct 22 17:15:12 2018 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 17:15:12 -0500 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <20181022221605.1762E2757C@mx1.ezwind.net> At 04:40 PM 10/22/2018, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: >As for multitasking, even Windows 10 can easily get bogged down where the >GUI becomes essentially unresponsive to user actions. MS has never grasped >that it should never be possible to wind up in a situation where the user >is stuck watching a rainbow-colored wheel spin, while some set of tasks >consumes pretty much every clock cycle on every core, and the user can't >even shift context away from whatever is hogging the system. There are lots of reasons why that can happen in any OS with a GUI You've discovered some computer that doesn't ever crash? >The Woz was then challenged about Commodore 64 sales far exceeding those of >Apple ][ and //e models, and he replied, "At Apple, we were always in it >for the long haul. What has Commodore sold lately?" Commodore, of course, >had long since gone bankrupt. CBM didn't do that until 1994, right? - John From jim.manley at gmail.com Mon Oct 22 17:59:46 2018 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 16:59:46 -0600 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: <20181022221605.1762E2757C@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <20181022221605.1762E2757C@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 4:16 PM John Foust via cctalk wrote: > At 04:40 PM 10/22/2018, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: > >As for multitasking, even Windows 10 can easily get bogged down where the > >GUI becomes essentially unresponsive to user actions. MS has never > grasped > >that it should never be possible to wind up in a situation where the user > >is stuck watching a rainbow-colored wheel spin, while some set of tasks > >consumes pretty much every clock cycle on every core, and the user can't > >even shift context away from whatever is hogging the system. > > There are lots of reasons why that can happen in any OS with a GUI > You've discovered some computer that doesn't ever crash? > These aren't crashes, because if you wait long enough (sometimes days), you eventually get control back. The system has been allowed to divert resources to purposes the user doesn't want, away from what the user is trying to accomplish. They have no way to change the precedence, short of getting an OS command prompt and running something akin to *n*x "nice" to modify the precedence level of a process, or killing processes outright. Yes, _if_ you can get the Task Manager up, you can do the latter, but a typical user isn't going to be aware that they can, and very likely would have no idea how, especially without blowing away something they shouldn't. > >The Woz was then challenged about Commodore 64 sales far exceeding those > of > >Apple ][ and //e models, and he replied, "At Apple, we were always in it > >for the long haul. What has Commodore sold lately?" Commodore, of > course, > >had long since gone bankrupt. > > CBM didn't do that until 1994, right? > Yep, April 29th, 1994. The Woz's comment was made December 10th, 2007, so, that was 13 years later. That means the celebration was for the 25th anniversary of the year of the launch of the C64, not the 30th anniversary - my bad. Warning to the young people out there: DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES GET OLD!!! It may seem like a great idea now, but once you start down that path, THERE'S NO TURNING BACK!!! All the Best, Jim From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Oct 22 18:13:24 2018 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 19:13:24 -0400 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: <20181022221605.1762E2757C@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <20181022221605.1762E2757C@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > You've discovered some computer that doesn't ever crash? They used to be called "IBM Midrange". -- Will (don't call them minicomputers!) From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Oct 22 18:16:32 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 17:16:32 -0600 Subject: Desktop Metaphor In-Reply-To: <19570e24-0ceb-62d7-27b9-95047d62e022@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <584daf47-9a37-362f-879e-03551ffab84a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <19570e24-0ceb-62d7-27b9-95047d62e022@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 10/22/2018 03:13 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > What do you call the TEXT based mouse interface, like found on some dos > shells. I tend to use the term "(mouse) cursor" for both text and GUI. > GUI I think of is the pure graphics. What is a graphic? Does a traditional text (extend ASCII characters 0 - 255) with ANSI color coding with sufficiently high enough resolution count? Particularly if the resolution is high enough that "characters" can almost double as pixels for a GUI? }:-) Also, MS-DOS Shell (as ships with MS-DOS 6.22) has a GUI mode. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Oct 22 20:29:44 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 20:29:44 -0500 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: <20181022221605.1762E2757C@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <20181022221605.1762E2757C@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <5BCE7988.4050409@pico-systems.com> On 10/22/2018 05:15 PM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > You've discovered some computer that doesn't ever crash? Hmmm, well, my home desktop has been up 478 days, my web server has been up 232 days, and my Asterisk phone system has been up for 571 days. The web server is directly on the WAN, and subject to constant attacks, too. That's pretty close to never crashing in my book! These are all Linux systems. Jon From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 22 20:33:54 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 18:33:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: <5BCE7988.4050409@pico-systems.com> References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <20181022221605.1762E2757C@mx1.ezwind.net> <5BCE7988.4050409@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: >> You've discovered some computer that doesn't ever crash? On Mon, 22 Oct 2018, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > Hmmm, well, my home desktop has been up 478 days, my web server has been up > 232 days, and my Asterisk phone system has been up for 571 days. The web > server is directly on the WAN, and subject to constant attacks, too. That's > pretty close to never crashing in my book! These are all Linux systems. I really should get around to putting together a UPS - nothing here has been up more than nine hours, . . . From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Mon Oct 22 20:38:37 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 20:38:37 -0500 Subject: Desktop Metaphor In-Reply-To: <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <60B736BF-F035-495A-ACF1-66120CAB776E@gmail.com> As they used to say, Windows95 = Mac 1984. Which is pushing it a bit but has some truth in it... Maybe Mac 1990. Curiously, the Xerox Alto has quite advanced GUI and object oriented programming (including the smalltalk windowing environment), but no desktop metaphor or icons that I have seen. I believe desktop metaphors appear later in the Alto commercial successor, the Xerox Star, and in the Apple Lisa, which bears strong Xerox influences. Xerox?s desktop metaphor pushes the object concept a bit far, while the Lisa got what would become the modern ubiquitous version of the concept almost dead on. Did I get this approximately right? Are there any other GUI desktop metaphors that predates this? Marc > On Oct 22, 2018, at 2:19 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > >> On 10/22/2018 10:57 AM, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: >> X-Windows-based desktop metaphor UI's existed within the Unix world long before Win95 came on the scene. >> The whole desktop metaphor UI existed long before Windows 95 in non-Unix implementations by Xerox PARC (Palo Alto Research Center) with the pioneering Xerox Alto, introduced in 1973, which implemented Alan Kay's concepts for the desktop metaphor that were postulated in 1970 using Smalltalk as the core operating system. > > That may be true but DOS/WINDOWS and APPLE II all had TV display output formats, now it is WIDE SCREEN ONLY. From what little I have seen about the Alto, you had a full sized 8x10? page format. The printed page > DOES matter for graphic displays. Try and find a printed page size PDF > reader, or one a tad smaller. Reading a PDF on a KINDLE DOES NOT WORK. > I suspect a good PDF reader, a not tablet, is needed often for all the > online doc's at places like bit savers to get the knowledge close to a > classic computer. > > I hate GUI's,because I hate ICON's. I see a little hand popup, is a mouse pointer,stop that sign, or play feel the naked photo. > > Ben. > From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Mon Oct 22 21:34:32 2018 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 19:34:32 -0700 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <1789502E-CAEF-40D1-A332-F755345C5499@eschatologist.net> On Oct 20, 2018, at 10:31 AM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > > Oooh. My personal recollection about w95 is that there was a lot of > touting before the premiere day, how advanced it was because "object > oriented operating system?. [...] > I might have been one of the very few people who not only > understood some of the buzzwords but also was duped into believing > there should be some substance behind them (which maybe makes me > exceptional, just not in a good way). A lot of Windows 95 is implemented using COM, which is probably where the description of it as ?object-oriented? comes from. And while I have never been a Windows user, to denigrate it as some sort of non-achievement given the constraints under which it was developed, both in terms of target systems and backwards compatibility, is myopic at best. -- Chris From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Mon Oct 22 22:39:08 2018 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 22:39:08 -0500 Subject: Advice needed: Entry point into things PDP-8 Message-ID: Greetings all... I have been pondering something and would love to receive feedback from you.? The thing is, I would like to have something pdp8-ish that would allow me to play a little bit with the programming languages that were available for these machines, FORTRAN 4K and FORTRAN IV in particular.? Now,? I would love to be able to time some FORTRAN jobs just to get an idea about what it was like back then.? I am aware of PiDP-8, simh, as well as SBC6120, SBC6120RBC. I happen to have three VT78 cpu boards (sans the RAM board) and two vt278 cpu boards. All were in rather sorry condition; I picked them up from a junk pile that was stacked several feet high and in which the contents were mostly random. Thus, the VT78 boards' components were scratched and in fact two of them are missing the control panel ROM chip. Otherwise they are complete, but I am missing the RAM boards.? The VT278 boards were further abused by someone who yanked out the oscillators and a few TTL chips, damaging several traces, which I have now repaired.? Alas, only one of them has the HM6120 cpu chip, and I do not know if it is good or not. Both are missing the SMC5037 CRT generator chip.? Other than that, they are complete. So, now that we all know what I have, let me say out loud what I've been thinking: If I try to build actual hardware: I've read that the VT278 has serious software compatibility issues with older software due to the use of the HM6121 I/O chip.? So even if I get an adequate keyboard, buy the CRT chip and manage to use it to drive a monitor, I would need an original floppy drive system and media, because I do not have the DP278 serial comms board that would allow me to send the VT278 a program to run; For the VT78, I would need to hack a memory board, and, since it can be coaxed to accept a program to run if it is fooled into thinking that it is loading a program from an MR78/paper tape, perhaps I could make it boot something.? I would need to wire-up and arduino or something like it to translate the keyboard and display terminal chatter in the serial console into something usable.? But, that's three hardware projects (memory board, MR78-like contraption, microcontrolled serial console translator)... The last hardware option is to go and make an SBC6120RBC;? I would need to buy programmers for the GAL/PAL devices, and I've heard that not all programmers can deal with the kind of chips used in it.? And, if it turns out that the HM6120 chip that I have is bad, I would have to hunt down one of those rare beasts.. It would be awesome, though, to have an SBC6120RBC up and running, and be able to time actual hardware running FORTRAN. And then comes the emulation option, with the PiDP-8.? I have to say that the emulation of the blinkenlights is very, very attractive to me, and this option is a no-brainer hardware-wise. So...? am I missing something in my estimation of the effort involved in these options? What would _you_ do? Carlos. From markwgreen at rogers.com Mon Oct 22 23:10:51 2018 From: markwgreen at rogers.com (Mark Green) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 00:10:51 -0400 Subject: Desktop Metaphor In-Reply-To: <60B736BF-F035-495A-ACF1-66120CAB776E@gmail.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <60B736BF-F035-495A-ACF1-66120CAB776E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003D0D63-60B6-44CB-9115-8F364352E002@rogers.com> The desk top metaphor goes back to at least Doug Englebarts work in the 1960s. There were no icons, but the basic metaphor was there. You need to be careful when you talk about Smalltalk since there were several quite different versions of it. The early versions were far more interesting and experimental than the later ones. Unfortunately most of the existing documentation is on Smalltalk 80 which was an attempt to take the language main stream. I do seem to recall that the earlier implementations had icons and the full desktop metaphor. They may have been dropped as being to radical for the time. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 22, 2018, at 9:38 PM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: > > As they used to say, Windows95 = Mac 1984. Which is pushing it a bit but has some truth in it... Maybe Mac 1990. Curiously, the Xerox Alto has quite advanced GUI and object oriented programming (including the smalltalk windowing environment), but no desktop metaphor or icons that I have seen. I believe desktop metaphors appear later in the Alto commercial successor, the Xerox Star, and in the Apple Lisa, which bears strong Xerox influences. Xerox?s desktop metaphor pushes the object concept a bit far, while the Lisa got what would become the modern ubiquitous version of the concept almost dead on. Did I get this approximately right? Are there any other GUI desktop metaphors that predates this? > Marc > >>> On Oct 22, 2018, at 2:19 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> On 10/22/2018 10:57 AM, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: >>> X-Windows-based desktop metaphor UI's existed within the Unix world long before Win95 came on the scene. >>> The whole desktop metaphor UI existed long before Windows 95 in non-Unix implementations by Xerox PARC (Palo Alto Research Center) with the pioneering Xerox Alto, introduced in 1973, which implemented Alan Kay's concepts for the desktop metaphor that were postulated in 1970 using Smalltalk as the core operating system. >> >> That may be true but DOS/WINDOWS and APPLE II all had TV display output formats, now it is WIDE SCREEN ONLY. From what little I have seen about the Alto, you had a full sized 8x10? page format. The printed page >> DOES matter for graphic displays. Try and find a printed page size PDF >> reader, or one a tad smaller. Reading a PDF on a KINDLE DOES NOT WORK. >> I suspect a good PDF reader, a not tablet, is needed often for all the >> online doc's at places like bit savers to get the knowledge close to a >> classic computer. >> >> I hate GUI's,because I hate ICON's. I see a little hand popup, is a mouse pointer,stop that sign, or play feel the naked photo. >> >> Ben. >> From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Oct 22 23:11:22 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 00:11:22 -0400 Subject: Advice needed: Entry point into things PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 11:39 PM Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Greetings all... > > I have been pondering something and would love to receive feedback from > you. The thing > is, I would like to have something pdp8-ish that would allow me to play > a little bit > with the programming languages that were available for these machines, > FORTRAN 4K and > FORTRAN IV in particular. Now, I would love to be able to time some > FORTRAN jobs just > to get an idea about what it was like back then. I am aware of PiDP-8, > simh, as well as > SBC6120, SBC6120RBC. > > > Carlos, My opinion....Get a PiDP8. They're great for so many things including testing, file transfer, and making disks. I have mine set to boot into simH via serial terminal so it will immediately act like a PDP 8 running OS/8. Once you get a working real PDP8, whatever, the type you can use the PiDP8 safely to experiment, compare and contrast, build media, etc I have documented the process on my web site, and there are many others who have also done this. Bill From useddec at gmail.com Mon Oct 22 23:17:01 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 23:17:01 -0500 Subject: Advice needed: Entry point into things PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Carlos, With the cost of PDP-8 parts and the need for maintenance and repair, if you can find an emulator that will do what you want, go for it. Paul On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 10:39 PM Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Greetings all... > > I have been pondering something and would love to receive feedback from > you. The thing > is, I would like to have something pdp8-ish that would allow me to play > a little bit > with the programming languages that were available for these machines, > FORTRAN 4K and > FORTRAN IV in particular. Now, I would love to be able to time some > FORTRAN jobs just > to get an idea about what it was like back then. I am aware of PiDP-8, > simh, as well as > SBC6120, SBC6120RBC. > > I happen to have three VT78 cpu boards (sans the RAM board) and two > vt278 cpu boards. > All were in rather sorry condition; I picked them up from a junk pile > that was stacked > several feet high and in which the contents were mostly random. Thus, > the VT78 boards' > components were scratched and in fact two of them are missing the > control panel ROM chip. > Otherwise they are complete, but I am missing the RAM boards. The VT278 > boards > were further abused by someone who yanked out the oscillators and a few > TTL chips, > damaging several traces, which I have now repaired. Alas, only one of > them has the > HM6120 cpu chip, and I do not know if it is good or not. Both are > missing the SMC5037 > CRT generator chip. Other than that, they are complete. > > So, now that we all know what I have, let me say out loud what I've been > thinking: > > If I try to build actual hardware: > > I've read that the VT278 has serious software compatibility issues with > older software > due to the use of the HM6121 I/O chip. So even if I get an adequate > keyboard, buy the > CRT chip and manage to use it to drive a monitor, I would need an > original floppy drive > system and media, because I do not have the DP278 serial comms board > that would allow me > to send the VT278 a program to run; > > For the VT78, I would need to hack a memory board, and, since it can be > coaxed to accept > a program to run if it is fooled into thinking that it is loading a > program from an > MR78/paper tape, perhaps I could make it boot something. I would need > to wire-up > and arduino or something like it to translate the keyboard and display > terminal > chatter in the serial console into something usable. But, that's three > hardware > projects (memory board, MR78-like contraption, microcontrolled serial > console > translator)... > > The last hardware option is to go and make an SBC6120RBC; I would need > to buy > programmers for the GAL/PAL devices, and I've heard that not all > programmers can deal > with the kind of chips used in it. And, if it turns out that the HM6120 > chip that I > have is bad, I would have to hunt down one of those rare beasts.. It > would be awesome, though, > to have an SBC6120RBC up and running, and be able to time actual > hardware running > FORTRAN. > > And then comes the emulation option, with the PiDP-8. I have to say > that the emulation > of the blinkenlights is very, very attractive to me, and this option is > a no-brainer > hardware-wise. > > So... am I missing something in my estimation of the effort involved in > these options? > > What would _you_ do? > > Carlos. > > From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Oct 22 23:26:43 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 21:26:43 -0700 Subject: Desktop Metaphor In-Reply-To: <003D0D63-60B6-44CB-9115-8F364352E002@rogers.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <60B736BF-F035-495A-ACF1-66120CAB776E@gmail.com> <003D0D63-60B6-44CB-9115-8F364352E002@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 9:11 PM Mark Green via cctalk wrote: > The desk top metaphor goes back to at least Doug Englebarts work in the > 1960s. There were no icons, but the basic metaphor was there. > > You need to be careful when you talk about Smalltalk since there were > several quite different versions of it. The early versions were far more > interesting and experimental than the later ones. Unfortunately most of the > existing documentation is on Smalltalk 80 which was an attempt to take the > language main stream. I do seem to recall that the earlier implementations > had icons and the full desktop metaphor. They may have been dropped as > being to radical for the time. > This is entirely incorrect. Earlier versions of Smalltalk investigated a lot of different ideas, but none of them used a desktop metaphor with (or without) icons. - Josh > > From peter at vanpeborgh.eu Mon Oct 22 13:28:34 2018 From: peter at vanpeborgh.eu (Peter Van Peborgh) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 19:28:34 +0100 Subject: Rolm computers Message-ID: <006c01d46a35$0b636020$222a2060$@eu> I would be interested in any Rolm items you might have. (no promises.) Thanks, Peter VP || | | | | | | | | Peter Van Peborgh 62 St Mary's Rise Writhlington Radstock Somerset BA3 3PD UK 01761 439 234 || | | | | | | | | From erik at baigar.de Mon Oct 22 14:41:38 2018 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 13:41:38 -0600 Subject: Rolm computers In-Reply-To: <006c01d46a35$0b636020$222a2060$@eu> References: <006c01d46a35$0b636020$222a2060$@eu> Message-ID: Hi Peter, sorry I have no items to pary with. Just trying to preserve the legacy of the early Rolms by keeping one unit up and running and having some spares. Anything special you are looking for (a 1666B is for auction on eBay right now)? Best wishes, Erik. Am 22. Oktober 2018 12:28:34 GMT-06:00 schrieb Peter Van Peborgh via cctech : >I would be interested in any Rolm items you might have. (no promises.) > >Thanks, > >Peter VP > >|| | | | | | | | | >Peter Van Peborgh >62 St Mary's Rise >Writhlington Radstock >Somerset BA3 3PD >UK >01761 439 234 >|| | | | | | | | | -- Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android-Ger?t mit K-9 Mail gesendet. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 23 01:28:17 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 23:28:17 -0700 Subject: Rolm computers In-Reply-To: <006c01d46a35$0b636020$222a2060$@eu> References: <006c01d46a35$0b636020$222a2060$@eu> Message-ID: On 10/22/18 11:28 AM, Peter Van Peborgh via cctalk wrote: > I would be interested in any Rolm items you might have. (no promises.) My wife had a job as a temp at Rolm. I think we have a Rolm frisbee that our dogs play with. --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 05:29:39 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 12:29:39 +0200 Subject: Desktop Metaphor In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 at 18:58, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: > > Liam Proven wrote: > > > >On the one hand, the cosmetics. *Every* Unix desktop out there draws > >on Win95. > > I take exception to the "*Every*" in Liam's statement above. I think you are missing my point so far that you're looking in the opposite direction. > Replacing "Unix" with "Linux" would make the statement more correct. How many graphical Unix desktops are sold or distributed in the world today that are not Linux? Excluding Mac OS X as I specifically address that point, I think. I can think of _one_ modern desktop that isn't a Linux one -- the Lumina desktop of TrueOS (i.e. FreeBSD.) Guess what -- it's a Win95 clone. > X-Windows-based desktop metaphor UI's existed within the Unix world long before Win95 came on the scene. That is _precisely my point_. There are _dozens_ of counter-examples, that is, non-Windows-like desktops from before Win95, and _none_ has any measurable modern impact today. Apart from Mac OS X going its own way, basically every other desktop still in active development or still being distributed today is Win95-like. Exceptions: Budgie, GNOME 3, Elementary OS' Pantheon -- all broadly Mac OS X-like. I would also note that Budgie and Pantheon are both derivatives of GNOME 3, as was the now-effectively-dead Ubuntu Unity. > The whole desktop metaphor UI existed long before Windows 95 in non-Unix implementations by Xerox PARC (Palo Alto Research Center) with the pioneering Xerox Alto, introduced in 1973, which implemented Alan Kay's concepts for the desktop metaphor that were postulated in 1970 using Smalltalk as the core operating system. That, again, *was the point I was trying to make*. We used to have a ton of prior art and alternative designs, and today, they have all gone, with basically no impact. > Windows 95, and the earlier versions of Microsoft's desktop metaphor UI's, were patterned after these implementations. Microsoft simply took concepts that already existed in the world of UI design, and made their own implementation based on those concepts. Whereas this is at its reductio-ad-absurdam core true, it misses the point. If you strip this down to a comparison of the elements that all desktops have in common, then there's nothing left to compare. Yes, it all came out of Xerox... although of course Xerox learned from Englebart, Sketchpad, etc. But what matters are the _differences_. Apple has created 3 main desktop UIs (setting aside the Newton, iPod, iOS etc.) * Lisa OS * classic MacOS (note, no space) * Mac OS X (note, space), now styled macOS (note capitalisation). Lisa OS went nowhere much, but the Mac is clearly strongly derived from it (although MacOS was a very profoundly different OS.) Lisa OS and MacOS both contained numerous innovations which nobody had done before. From memory -- I welcome correction... * a global menu bar in a fixed location * standardised menu entries, with strict rules for naming them (e.g. File/Edit/View/etc, restriction to single words only) * standardised dialog boxes, with standardised names, in a standardised order (trivial example: http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=Do_It.txt ) * standarised window decorations in fixed positions * fixed restricted meanings for desktop icons, which were themselves limited in function) * menus shared between apps (e.g. the Apple menu) Apple took the somewhat nebulous ideas of Xerox PARC -- of a system for programmers, with Smalltalk visible and so on -- cut them down to something implementable and standardised and controlled them until they were much easier and simpler. It discarded stuff Jobs and his lieutenants didn't get. No Smalltalk, no interpreter or programming exposed to the user, no built-in networking or network functionality. It cut it down to compiled apps with distinct functionality and a strictly controlled unified UI, running cooperatively in a single shared desktop UI. Compare to the early Alto and its kind: UI was wildly varied, might be textual, might not, and there was no uniformity between apps. But the Lisa with its "templates" and multitasking and so on was too complex and too expensive. So this was cut-down even further to the Mac. Much of what we take for granted in UIs today comes either direct from the Mac, or from systems designed soon after the Mac which were either consciously aping it, or were avoiding it and inventing non-Mac-like ways to do things so as to avoid Apple lawsuits. DR GEM put drive icons on the desktop. Apple sued. DR removed them (from the PC version). Microsoft, fighting shy, had no drive icons. Windows 1/2/3 had an empty desktop unless you first opened and then minimised some windows. Win95 came up with "my computer", an entirely virtual folder, and in there were the drive icons -- so it did not infringe Apple's patents. As it happens it thus recreated the non-infringing method DR had invented, but made it more rigorous. You can itemise a list of the elements of a Mac-like desktop: * global menu bar * drive icons on the desktop * trashcan on the desktop * single iconic spatial filer * filer windows are flat and contain only a grid of icons for their contents * to get at subfolders, a new window is opened by double-clicking on a folder icon in a parent window * standardised dialog boxes, which are modal and forcibly constrain interaction to simple choices ... etc. DR GEM copied this (and got sued, but it didn't affect ST GEM), but tweaked it: menu bar entries are drop-down not pull down -- you mouse over them, they pop open on their own, without a click. This wasn't enough and it got sued. Amiga OS copied this but tweaked it: the menu bar only appears when you right-click at the top of the screen. Somehow this was enough. Microsoft, leery of litigation, avoided copying it and pointedly did things differently: * no desktop icons * filer was list-oriented, fixed 2 pane design * menu bars were inside app windows, and to hell with Fitt's Law * window controls were rearranged Just 3-4 years after the Mac, rather than the year or 2 that the ST and Amiga came out, later companies also carefully heeded the Apple example, because of the DR lawsuit, and pointedly did things differently. * NeXT carefully avoided it in NeXTstep. * Acorn also avoided it in RISC OS. This stuff isn't coincidence. These things didn't just happen. Now, look at the UIs that appeared _after_ the Mac. * all have strict interface guidelines * all have standardised menu bars in standardised places with standardised entries * all have standardised dialog boxes with standardised buttons in standardised places * all have their own fixed filer design, usually non-iconic This stuff matters. The signs and trends are there and very clear. But almost nobody looks at it, they just mouth empty platitudes like "MS stole from Apple but Apple stole it from Xerox anyway". That's not really true, it neglects a _ton_ of important, incremental work. But that stuff all gets dismissed. Now back to your argument. Consider a few of the post-Mac but pre-Win95 desktops. That means the mid to end 1980s and early 1990s. * HP VUE * Open Group CDE -- now FOSS, which I've written about: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/08/09/cde_goes_opensource/ * Sun OPEN LOOK & SunView * IRIX Indigo Magic / Interactive Desktop * HP NewWave * Xerox ViewPoint / GlobalView * as previously mentioned, NeXTstep and Acorn Risc OS (You see, I have been paying attention, for, oh, 35 years or so now.) Now, I can point to 3 living (FSVO "living") descendants of those OSes: * CDE is now FOSS (It had a conceptual re-implementation, the XForms Common Environment, XFCE. Here's a screenshot: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/19/Xfce3.jpg Note, it has now moved to a Windows-like model) AFAIK no current or historical full-function general-purpose Linux offers CDE as a desktop choice. * NeXTstep inspired GNUstep http://www.gnustep.org/ (and LiteStep but that's now dead) No current or historical full-function general-purpose Linux offers GNUstep as a desktop choice. * Risc OS inspired the ROX Desktop: http://rox.sourceforge.net/desktop/ Again, no current or historical full-function general-purpose Linux offers ROX as a desktop choice. That's it. I am aware of some now-dead historical ones. I believe there was a Mac-like Linux desktop called, I think, Sparta, but it's so long-dead I can't Google up any trace of it. There was AmiWM, an AmigaOS-like window manager, but it's not a full desktop. There are MorphOS and AROS but they're relatively obscure and are separate OSes. There _was_ an attempt to reproduce the IRIX Magic desktop but it never got anywhere and is AFAIK now dead: http://5dwm.org/ BeOS used the Windows model. OS/2 Warp made the WPS more CDE-like with a launcher, but Warp 4 made that Win95-like. So, current active FOSS desktop environments. * KDE -- Win9x model * Trinity, fork of KDE 3 -- Win9x model * Cinnamon, fork of GNOME 3 -- Win9x model * Xfce -- Win9x model * LXDE -- Win9x model * LXQt -- Qt-based continuation of LXDE; Win9x model * Mat?, fork of GNOME 2 -- Win9x model * Enlightenment -- Win9x model * Moksha, fork of E17 -- Win9x model Let's be generous and look at a few simple window managers! * IceWM, fallback option in SUSE: Win9x model * Fvwm95, as used in RH when I first got into Linux -- Win9x model FreeBSD! Let's not limit ourselves to Linux! * Lumina -- Win9x model Let's broaden it past Unix. * BeOS (& Zeta) and Haiku -- Win9x model Or let's look beyond FOSS! * QNX Neutrino Photon -- Win9x model Are you starting to see what I mean now? I would also add that GNOME 2 followed the Win9x model, and only changed after Microsoft threatened to sue. I have examined this in some depth here: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/06/03/thank_microsoft_for_linux_desktop_fail/ Outside of Apple, I think it is fair to say that no new OS or desktop environment since 1995 has used anything other than the Win95 model. The fact that there are a small handful of clones of the Apple Mac OS X GUI doesn't really invalidate this point. A couple of FOSS copies of proprietary 1980s OSes attempt to re-create pre-Win95 desktops. Every pre-Win95 Unix desktop _or FOSS clone thereof_ is dead or as good as dead, with few active commits and no distributions offering it as a desktop choice. Don't get me wrong. I do not think this is a good thing. I think this is _tragic_ and wish to reverse that trend. There used to be, as you say, wide diversity in OS and desktop design. Now it has all gone. Win95 swept all before it, and unless you are about half a century old, you have probably never seen a desktop that isn't Win95-like unless it's Apple or a copy of Apple. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 05:30:32 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 12:30:32 +0200 Subject: Desktop Metaphor In-Reply-To: <60B736BF-F035-495A-ACF1-66120CAB776E@gmail.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <60B736BF-F035-495A-ACF1-66120CAB776E@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 at 03:40, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: > > As they used to say, Windows95 = Mac 1984. Which is pushing it a bit but has some truth in it... Maybe Mac 1990. Curiously, the Xerox Alto has quite advanced GUI and object oriented programming (including the smalltalk windowing environment), but no desktop metaphor or icons that I have seen. I believe desktop metaphors appear later in the Alto commercial successor, the Xerox Star, and in the Apple Lisa, which bears strong Xerox influences. Xerox?s desktop metaphor pushes the object concept a bit far, while the Lisa got what would become the modern ubiquitous version of the concept almost dead on. Did I get this approximately right? I'd say you're pretty much bang-on. > Are there any other GUI desktop metaphors that predates this? Not that I'm aware of. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 05:33:11 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 12:33:11 +0200 Subject: Desktop Metaphor In-Reply-To: <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 at 21:19, ben via cctalk wrote: > Try and find a printed page size PDF > reader, or one a tad smaller. Reading a PDF on a KINDLE DOES NOT WORK. I suggest you look at the Kindle DX. I bought one. I got it 2nd hand, from the USA, via eBay. https://www.amazon.com/Kindle-DX-Wireless-Reader-3G-Global/dp/B002GYWHSQ https://www.amazon.com/Kindle-Wireless-Reading-Display-Globally/dp/B0015TG12Q One of the main reasons I got it is that it renders PDFs well and a lot of important computer history books and the like are only readily available as PDFs. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 05:38:10 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 12:38:10 +0200 Subject: Desktop Metaphor In-Reply-To: <584daf47-9a37-362f-879e-03551ffab84a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <584daf47-9a37-362f-879e-03551ffab84a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 at 22:56, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > It's perfectly possible to use GUIs without any icons. > > It's possible to use GUIs without a mouse. > > The GUI is not responsible for what people do with them / the mouse. Exactly so. Oberon is a good example of a GUI with no icons. It is text-based -- a TUI -- but graphical. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberon_(operating_system) -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 05:41:05 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 12:41:05 +0200 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: <1bba29ea-7dd5-c074-8df5-fb16ba2e94a2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <1bba29ea-7dd5-c074-8df5-fb16ba2e94a2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 at 22:54, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 10/22/2018 08:14 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > *Every* Unix desktop out there draws on Win95. > > Nope. That's simply not true. > > The following three vast families of window managers / desktops prove > (to my satisfaction) that your statement is wrong. > > ? Common Desktop Environment (a.k.a. CDE) and it's ilk. > ? The various *Box window managers / desktop environments. > ? Motif window manager and it's ilk. > > They are all significantly different from each other and from Windows's > Explorer interface, first publicly debuting with Windows 95. > > > The Win95 Explorer re-wrote the book on OS UI design. > > "A" book, maybe. I don't think it was "the" book. > > > The _only_ company to resist was Apple, because of course, some of the > > reasons that Win95 is the way it is are attempts to do things differently > > from Apple so as not to get sued. > > I think /company/ is critical in that statement as it implies for profit > business which excludes many other non-business related options. Even > then, IBM, Sun, HP, etc were releasing commercial Unixes with CDE and / > or Motif after Windows 95. See my comments in the other thread. It's pointless to compare environments from _before_ Win95 as a way of saying that Win95 didn't influence them! And plain WMs aren't desktops. In my long comment in the other thread, I've been very generous in what I'm calling a "desktop" but at the least it has to be a cohesive environment offering accessory programs and features such as file management, text editing, and so on. A bunch of terminals in a window manager are not a "desktop environment". -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 06:09:09 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 13:09:09 +0200 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 at 23:41, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: > > This reference to "object-oriented" is way off, conflating GUI "objects" > and true object-oriented software. Yep. Welcome to the wonderful world of marketing. :-( > Ummmm ... no. You're apparently completely uninformed about MIT Project > Athena, aka The X Window System, or X11, or just X, for short, and no, it's > not plural. Um. Right. See my length post in the other thread. > BTW, MacOS X is based on Mach, the version of Unix that was designed for > multiple, closely-coupled processors, Yes... > and it, too, uses X as a basis for > its GUI. No it doesn't. Not at all, not even a little bit. Mac OS X is based on NeXTstep. NeXTstep used Display Postscript as its display server. Postscript is encumbered by Adobe patents (and is mainly intended for print.) Thus, Mac OS X moved from Display Postscript to Quartz, which renders PDF to the screen. "Display PDF" instead of DPS. Early OS X versions included a separate X server so that Unix X.11 apps could be run. It does not any longer, AFAIK. (I am running 10.13 on my iMac at home.) > The iPhone was the best example of this - after swearing there would never > be an iPhone for years, they actually shipped the original version, not > only without an elegant copy/paste mechanism, but no means of performing > copy/paste at all for the first year, let alone not provided a means for > anyone outside Apple and its partners to create native apps. I think you should read this: https://blog.fawny.org/2018/10/22/hardtouse/ -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From oltmansg at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 06:10:59 2018 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 06:10:59 -0500 Subject: Desktop Metaphor In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <5bcf01c3.1c69fb81.e66f4.0c02@mx.google.com> I?ll throw in my two cents to say that I?ve used a fair number of GUIs over the years both commercially available and FOSS, and I?d say that Windows 95?s UI blew the doors off of anything I?d used up that point in terms of usability. Nobody IMO can fairly compare it with the previously available X based desktops. The Mac was good, the Amiga was good, but there was a lot more flexibility in how Win95 operated, and that?s probably why (along with familiarity) that it has been so oft copied up to this point (Mac OS X?s UI notwithstanding, which is also quite good). From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 06:13:15 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 13:13:15 +0200 Subject: Desktop Metaphor In-Reply-To: <5bcf01c3.1c69fb81.e66f4.0c02@mx.google.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <5bcf01c3.1c69fb81.e66f4.0c02@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 at 13:11, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > > I?ll throw in my two cents to say that I?ve used a fair number of GUIs over the years both commercially available and FOSS, and I?d say that Windows 95?s UI blew the doors off of anything I?d used up that point in terms of usability. Nobody IMO can fairly compare it with the previously available X based desktops. The Mac was good, the Amiga was good, but there was a lot more flexibility in how Win95 operated, and that?s probably why (along with familiarity) that it has been so oft copied up to this point (Mac OS X?s UI notwithstanding, which is also quite good). I'd go with that, actually, yes. My personal favourite in recent years was Ubuntu's Unity, which is a better Mac OS X than Mac OS X (IMHO). But the fact that I like it and am comfy with it doesn't mean that I don't want to see people trying to do something different... -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From abuse at cabal.org.uk Tue Oct 23 07:02:18 2018 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 14:02:18 +0200 Subject: Desktop Metaphor In-Reply-To: <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 01:19:37PM -0600, ben via cctalk wrote: [...] > That may be true but DOS/WINDOWS and APPLE II all had TV display output > formats, now it is WIDE SCREEN ONLY. From what little I have seen about the > Alto, you had a full sized 8x10? page format. The printed page DOES matter > for graphic displays. Try and find a printed page size PDF reader, or one a > tad smaller. Reading a PDF on a KINDLE DOES NOT WORK. I suspect a good PDF > reader, a not tablet, is needed often for all the online doc's at places like > bit savers to get the knowledge close to a classic computer. The Kindle is cheap crap optimised to sell Amazon eBooks. Any feature that does not directly push you to give more money to Amazon is made virtually unusable. This includes its PDF reader. I gave mine away in disgust. I suspect that you also have a cheap crap monitor or laptop which uses a nasty 1080p TV panel. They have a much lower resolution than the printed page, so of course it's going to look like crap. A4 is 11.69" tall, and squeezing that into 1080 pixels gives you 92DPI - worse than fax. Rotating the screen into portrait mode gives more pixels, but now the limit is fitting the 8.27" wide document into 1080 pixels, or 130DPI. (Obviously, these are DPIs of the source, not the scaled image on your monitor.) I have a 15" 2880 by 1800 display on my laptop, which has a pretty good PDF reader which will show two pages side-by-side. The resolution is high enough that it's as good as reading off paper, albeit scaled down to about 70% because the screen is physically smaller than A4. Plug my laptop into a nice HiDPI monitor -- or indeed any good-enough laptop into one of those cheap 4K monitors which use scummy UHD TV panels -- and PDFs become gloriously large and crisp. Go on, find ?300 or so and treat yourself to a new display. From systems.glitch at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 07:55:13 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 08:55:13 -0400 Subject: Advice needed: Entry point into things PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There's also our Ohio Scientific 560Z "Processor Lab" reproduction: http://www.glitchwrks.com/2017/02/26/osi-560z-build It uses the Intersil IM6100 and executes PDP-8 code. Memory management is implemented in handlers written in 6502 assembly on the host system, so you can have whatever memory management you like. I believe one of the guys on the osiweb.org forums has PDP-8/e memory management working. I don't know if he has OS/8 running yet, but does have at least FOCAL going. You of course need a 12-bit memory board, which we also make (uses modern components, works with FeRAM for a core-like experience). And you'll need some sort of host system, the simplest being an Ohio Scientific 502 at the moment (basically a single-board 6502 system with serial console). That's probably the cheapest/most reliable *non-emulation* route. Of course, emulation is going to be both cheaper and more reliable. Thanks, Jonathan On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 12:17 AM Paul Anderson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi Carlos, > > With the cost of PDP-8 parts and the need for maintenance and repair, if > you can find an emulator that will do what you want, go for it. > > Paul > > On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 10:39 PM Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Greetings all... > > > > I have been pondering something and would love to receive feedback from > > you. The thing > > is, I would like to have something pdp8-ish that would allow me to play > > a little bit > > with the programming languages that were available for these machines, > > FORTRAN 4K and > > FORTRAN IV in particular. Now, I would love to be able to time some > > FORTRAN jobs just > > to get an idea about what it was like back then. I am aware of PiDP-8, > > simh, as well as > > SBC6120, SBC6120RBC. > > > > I happen to have three VT78 cpu boards (sans the RAM board) and two > > vt278 cpu boards. > > All were in rather sorry condition; I picked them up from a junk pile > > that was stacked > > several feet high and in which the contents were mostly random. Thus, > > the VT78 boards' > > components were scratched and in fact two of them are missing the > > control panel ROM chip. > > Otherwise they are complete, but I am missing the RAM boards. The VT278 > > boards > > were further abused by someone who yanked out the oscillators and a few > > TTL chips, > > damaging several traces, which I have now repaired. Alas, only one of > > them has the > > HM6120 cpu chip, and I do not know if it is good or not. Both are > > missing the SMC5037 > > CRT generator chip. Other than that, they are complete. > > > > So, now that we all know what I have, let me say out loud what I've been > > thinking: > > > > If I try to build actual hardware: > > > > I've read that the VT278 has serious software compatibility issues with > > older software > > due to the use of the HM6121 I/O chip. So even if I get an adequate > > keyboard, buy the > > CRT chip and manage to use it to drive a monitor, I would need an > > original floppy drive > > system and media, because I do not have the DP278 serial comms board > > that would allow me > > to send the VT278 a program to run; > > > > For the VT78, I would need to hack a memory board, and, since it can be > > coaxed to accept > > a program to run if it is fooled into thinking that it is loading a > > program from an > > MR78/paper tape, perhaps I could make it boot something. I would need > > to wire-up > > and arduino or something like it to translate the keyboard and display > > terminal > > chatter in the serial console into something usable. But, that's three > > hardware > > projects (memory board, MR78-like contraption, microcontrolled serial > > console > > translator)... > > > > The last hardware option is to go and make an SBC6120RBC; I would need > > to buy > > programmers for the GAL/PAL devices, and I've heard that not all > > programmers can deal > > with the kind of chips used in it. And, if it turns out that the HM6120 > > chip that I > > have is bad, I would have to hunt down one of those rare beasts.. It > > would be awesome, though, > > to have an SBC6120RBC up and running, and be able to time actual > > hardware running > > FORTRAN. > > > > And then comes the emulation option, with the PiDP-8. I have to say > > that the emulation > > of the blinkenlights is very, very attractive to me, and this option is > > a no-brainer > > hardware-wise. > > > > So... am I missing something in my estimation of the effort involved in > > these options? > > > > What would _you_ do? > > > > Carlos. > > > > > From db at db.net Tue Oct 23 08:21:36 2018 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 09:21:36 -0400 Subject: Peripherals and Interfacing handbook pdp-11 Message-ID: <20181023132136.GA85448@night.db.net> Up for grabs free for postage, 1971 version. -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://artemis.db.net/~db From markwgreen at rogers.com Tue Oct 23 09:14:39 2018 From: markwgreen at rogers.com (Mark Green) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 10:14:39 -0400 Subject: Desktop Metaphor In-Reply-To: <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <4D5E0A4E-381D-413D-BD9D-B64D37A9FF4A@rogers.com> I worked on the early Smalltalk systems, mainly variations of Smalltalk 76. They were there. It was the motivation for my MSc thesis which explored concurrent message passing for UI implementation including a demo of a system based on the desktop metaphor. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 23, 2018, at 8:02 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > >> On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 01:19:37PM -0600, ben via cctalk wrote: >> [...] >> That may be true but DOS/WINDOWS and APPLE II all had TV display output >> formats, now it is WIDE SCREEN ONLY. From what little I have seen about the >> Alto, you had a full sized 8x10? page format. The printed page DOES matter >> for graphic displays. Try and find a printed page size PDF reader, or one a >> tad smaller. Reading a PDF on a KINDLE DOES NOT WORK. I suspect a good PDF >> reader, a not tablet, is needed often for all the online doc's at places like >> bit savers to get the knowledge close to a classic computer. > > The Kindle is cheap crap optimised to sell Amazon eBooks. Any feature that does > not directly push you to give more money to Amazon is made virtually unusable. > This includes its PDF reader. I gave mine away in disgust. > > I suspect that you also have a cheap crap monitor or laptop which uses a nasty > 1080p TV panel. They have a much lower resolution than the printed page, so of > course it's going to look like crap. A4 is 11.69" tall, and squeezing that into > 1080 pixels gives you 92DPI - worse than fax. Rotating the screen into portrait > mode gives more pixels, but now the limit is fitting the 8.27" wide document > into 1080 pixels, or 130DPI. (Obviously, these are DPIs of the source, not the > scaled image on your monitor.) > > I have a 15" 2880 by 1800 display on my laptop, which has a pretty good PDF > reader which will show two pages side-by-side. The resolution is high enough > that it's as good as reading off paper, albeit scaled down to about 70% because > the screen is physically smaller than A4. > > Plug my laptop into a nice HiDPI monitor -- or indeed any good-enough laptop > into one of those cheap 4K monitors which use scummy UHD TV panels -- and PDFs > become gloriously large and crisp. Go on, find ?300 or so and treat yourself to > a new display. > From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 09:25:41 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 07:25:41 -0700 Subject: Desktop Metaphor In-Reply-To: <4D5E0A4E-381D-413D-BD9D-B64D37A9FF4A@rogers.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <4D5E0A4E-381D-413D-BD9D-B64D37A9FF4A@rogers.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 7:14 AM Mark Green via cctalk wrote: > I worked on the early Smalltalk systems, mainly variations of Smalltalk > 76. They were there. It was the motivation for my MSc thesis which explored > concurrent message passing for UI implementation including a demo of a > system based on the desktop metaphor. > I've never seen evidence for any Smalltalk having a desktop metaphor (as in the discussion at hand -- icons and folders representing files and/or data, not merely windows, etc.). It's certainly possible that the platform was used for experimentation with such within PARC or elsewhere, but no smalltalk images I've seen contain anything like that. Is your thesis available to read anywhere? I wrote an Alto emulator (https://github.com/livingcomputermuseum/ContrAlto) that you can use to run a variety of Smalltalk versions (-72, -74, -76, and early renditions of -80 are available on Bitsavers) if you wish to revisit this. - Josh From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 09:52:44 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 09:52:44 -0500 Subject: Advice needed: Entry point into things PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 8:11 AM systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > > There's also our Ohio Scientific 560Z "Processor Lab" reproduction: > > http://www.glitchwrks.com/2017/02/26/osi-560z-build That's fun. For a long time now, I've wanted to noodle around on a Challenger 3. We had a family friend in the 1970s who had one and I used to go visit and spend hours on it. I was using PETs every week at the same time so it was a bit of a shift to a floppy-based system and one that had 3 CPUs on top of that! I started fiddling with PDP-8s about 4-5 years later and was surprised to learn there was a PDP-8-on-a-chip (IM6100 then later then IM6120). Very cool that you've made it available now. I just don't think I'll ever run across a Challenger 3. I haven't in the past 30 years, and I live about 2 hours from where they were made. Was the original 560Z a popular board? I'm guessing it was a niche product. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 10:40:33 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 10:40:33 -0500 Subject: Advice needed: Entry point into things PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 10:39 PM Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk wrote: > you. The thing > is, I would like to have something pdp8-ish that would allow me to play > a little bit > with the programming languages that were available for these machines, > FORTRAN 4K and > FORTRAN IV in particular. Now, I would love to be able to time some > FORTRAN jobs just > to get an idea about what it was like back then. I am aware of PiDP-8, > simh, as well as > SBC6120, SBC6120RBC. I would probably do all the things but in a particular order. If my goal was to learn PDP-8 software, I would just start with simh running on anything. I have a PiDP-8. It's nice. You definitely get the feel of running an older PDP-8 (except no noise for floppy drives or DECtape, and no seek time) but under the blinky covers, it's running simh. You can learn everything about the configuration of PDP-8 models, about memory, and all the programming languages with simh. From there, consider a PiDP-8 if you want a quick junior-sized emulated machine for the look and feel of things. The SBC6120 with FB6120 is also nice. I have one. Unlike the PiDP-8, the SBC6120 has a native 12-bit microprocessor (IM6120) and isn't emulating anything except running some front panel ROM code to handle disks in a way that hides the details from the OS/8 side of things (much like the DECmates do). Unfortunately, they are expensive. Not many were made and they weren't exactly cheap when new. As for the GAL programmer, the GALs in the SBC6120 are rather ordinary but, yes, some programmers can't handle them. I have multiple device programmers and even the one from 1990 can program 20 and 24-pin GALs (I'm not sure about newer programmers - I don't have one because my older ones work fine). Someone on the list could probably bang them out for you for a few dollars unless you really wanted to own the entire hardware toolchain. >From there, one of the challenges of repairing your VT78 and VT278 boards is there's no blinkenlights console to assess repair status during the repair or to try to toggle in test programs. Replacing a ROM is easy enough, even if you have to make a pin-swapping socket adapter to use a modern EPROM (I don't know what type of ROM is in the VT78, but it's possible that it's something standard like a 2708 or 2716). Getting replacement parts for your VT278 is probably not all _that_ hard - one likely source is a DECmate II or III board, if you can find a spare. Last time I bought one, it was about $50 but it probably has gone up a little. The VT278 does have a compatibility issue with the console SLU (03/04) and the flags. That's why there's OS/278 in the DECUS collection. If you were going to write your own code from scratch, you'd have to take the operation of the console device into account when writing your TTY code, and you might not be able to just run anything you find. I have a VT278 but have only run WPS-8 on it, not OS/278 so I can't provide deep details. You would likely want an RX02 (and cable) if you were going to resurrect the VT278. The cable can be made (DB25 one end, DC37 other end, and the pinouts are available). Inside the VT278 pedestal is a _real_ RX02 but there's a simple 40-pin-to-DB-25 passive board inside the case, much like the one in an RX02 for a MINC-11, and, again, this can be made new. Finding any RX02 drive is an exercise in shopping and paying freight, but then you'll need someone to at least cut some starter floppies for you. So if you are going to go the emulation route, I'd start with just downloading simh and some OS/8 image files (RK05 or RX02) and learning the software side of things. This may generate enough interest to want to explore the hardware side of things, and for that, you definitely have a swath of projects in front of you with varying degrees of cost and effort. -ethan From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Oct 23 10:48:31 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 10:48:31 -0500 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <20181022221605.1762E2757C@mx1.ezwind.net> <5BCE7988.4050409@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5BCF42CF.7030704@pico-systems.com> On 10/22/2018 08:33 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> You've discovered some computer that doesn't ever crash? > On Mon, 22 Oct 2018, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >> Hmmm, well, my home desktop has been up 478 days, my web >> server has been up 232 days, and my Asterisk phone system >> has been up for 571 days. The web server is directly on >> the WAN, and subject to constant attacks, too. That's >> pretty close to never crashing in my book! These are all >> Linux systems. > > I really should get around to putting together a UPS - > nothing here has been up more than nine hours, . . . > > > OH, and NONE of these systems are on a UPS! Now, usually, we have a power interruption a few times a year, so this has been a rather exceptional stretch. Jon From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Oct 23 10:49:24 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 09:49:24 -0600 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <1bba29ea-7dd5-c074-8df5-fb16ba2e94a2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 10/23/2018 04:41 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > It's pointless to compare environments from _before_ Win95 as a way of > saying that Win95 didn't influence them! Your statement that I replied to is: *Every* Unix desktop out there draws on Win95. That "every" includes desktops before Windows 95. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Oct 23 10:58:37 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 10:58:37 -0500 Subject: Desktop Metaphor In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <5bcf01c3.1c69fb81.e66f4.0c02@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <5BCF452D.8020600@pico-systems.com> On 10/23/2018 06:13 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > My personal favourite in recent years was Ubuntu's Unity, > which is a better Mac OS X than Mac OS X (IMHO). ARRGhhh! I HATE Unity! I have switched all my Ubuntu systems to gnome-classic, which suits me fine. (You have to hack the theme xml file to make the borders wide enough to grab and stretch.) I lasted about 4 hours with Unity. I am a spatial thinker, I want all my icons and toolbar icons to STAY PUT, I grab them by position, not by searing for the picture (icon) I want to select. Jon From aperry at snowmoose.com Tue Oct 23 11:32:02 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 09:32:02 -0700 Subject: Computers that never crash (Was: Microsoft-Paul Allen) In-Reply-To: <5BCF42CF.7030704@pico-systems.com> References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <20181022221605.1762E2757C@mx1.ezwind.net> <5BCE7988.4050409@pico-systems.com> <5BCF42CF.7030704@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <2BAE238D-B365-4061-B254-C84F712EF4A3@snowmoose.com> > On Oct 23, 2018, at 8:48 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > On 10/22/2018 08:33 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>>> You've discovered some computer that doesn't ever crash? >> On Mon, 22 Oct 2018, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >>> Hmmm, well, my home desktop has been up 478 days, my web server has been up 232 days, and my Asterisk phone system has been up for 571 days. The web server is directly on the WAN, and subject to constant attacks, too. That's pretty close to never crashing in my book! These are all Linux systems. >> >> I really should get around to putting together a UPS - >> nothing here has been up more than nine hours, . . . >> >> >> > OH, and NONE of these systems are on a UPS! Now, usually, we have a power interruption a few times a year, so this has been a rather exceptional stretch. > I have a RPi dedicated to a SIMH VAX-11/750 running BSD that I intended to leave up and rack up some impressive uptime. Then I was reminded by the local electricity provider that this isn?t the right place to try that. We get clear day, calm weather power outages here. alan From rlloken at telus.net Tue Oct 23 11:37:06 2018 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 10:37:06 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Desktop Metaphor In-Reply-To: Etwjgc9T925hmEtwlg1cuj References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> Etwjgc9T925hmEtwlg1cuj Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Oct 2018, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > How many graphical Unix desktops are sold or distributed in the world > today that are not Linux? Excluding Mac OS X as I specifically address > that point, I think. I am replying to this email on a FreeBSD 10.3 box and Motif. I don't know what FreeBSD runs out of the box because I immediately delete it and install Motif. FreeBSD may not have the installed base of Linux but it has a its fans. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear, Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 11:47:01 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 18:47:01 +0200 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <1bba29ea-7dd5-c074-8df5-fb16ba2e94a2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 at 17:49, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 10/23/2018 04:41 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > > It's pointless to compare environments from _before_ Win95 as a way of > > saying that Win95 didn't influence them! > > Your statement that I replied to is: > > *Every* Unix desktop out there draws on Win95. > > That "every" includes desktops before Windows 95. This may be an unfortunate mismatch of English idioms. "Out there", to me, means "current, available/on sale/in use now, in active use and/or maintenance". That notwithstanding, I have to say, I still think it's ludicrous to imply that anything _before_ Win95 could have drawn upon it, even if making a negative statement. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 11:49:08 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 18:49:08 +0200 Subject: Desktop Metaphor In-Reply-To: <5BCF452D.8020600@pico-systems.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <5bcf01c3.1c69fb81.e66f4.0c02@mx.google.com> <5BCF452D.8020600@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 at 17:58, Jon Elson wrote: > ARRGhhh! I HATE Unity! I have switched all my Ubuntu > systems to gnome-classic, which suits me fine. > (You have to hack the theme xml file to make the borders > wide enough to grab and stretch.) > I lasted about 4 hours with Unity. I am a spatial thinker, > I want all my icons and toolbar icons to STAY PUT, I grab > them by position, not by searing for the picture (icon) I > want to select. I am not trying to impose my choices on anyone. I liked Unity. It was simple, quick, clear and effective. I find GNOME 3 to be frustrating to the level of shouting incoherently at my computer within half an hour. Ditto KDE (any version >1.x). Others like them. Chacun ? son go?t. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 11:59:00 2018 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 13:59:00 -0300 Subject: Desktop Metaphor In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <5bcf01c3.1c69fb81.e66f4.0c02@mx.google.com> <5BCF452D.8020600@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <21cd1b7a-2c8b-3add-405a-4618bf33fec5@gmail.com> This is my issue with a lot of Linux distros they seem to try to hard to look and work like mac or like windows while I would rather have them look and work like the xwindows I knew and loved.? One of my biggest aggravations is cut and paste I would very much rather it worked more like it used to on X. Paul. On 2018-10-23 1:49 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 at 17:58, Jon Elson wrote: > >> ARRGhhh! I HATE Unity! I have switched all my Ubuntu >> systems to gnome-classic, which suits me fine. >> (You have to hack the theme xml file to make the borders >> wide enough to grab and stretch.) >> I lasted about 4 hours with Unity. I am a spatial thinker, >> I want all my icons and toolbar icons to STAY PUT, I grab >> them by position, not by searing for the picture (icon) I >> want to select. > I am not trying to impose my choices on anyone. > > I liked Unity. It was simple, quick, clear and effective. > > I find GNOME 3 to be frustrating to the level of shouting incoherently > at my computer within half an hour. Ditto KDE (any version >1.x). > Others like them. > > Chacun ? son go?t. > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Oct 23 12:05:27 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 11:05:27 -0600 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <1bba29ea-7dd5-c074-8df5-fb16ba2e94a2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 10/23/2018 10:47 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > This may be an unfortunate mismatch of English idioms. Fair. > "Out there", to me, means "current, available/on sale/in use now, in > active use and/or maintenance". I'm fairly sure that Solaris and AIX both continue to ship C.D.E. ;-) > That notwithstanding, I have to say, I still think it's ludicrous to > imply that anything _before_ Win95 could have drawn upon it, even if > making a negative statement. Hence why I prefer to be excruciatingly clear. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 12:08:24 2018 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 14:08:24 -0300 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <1bba29ea-7dd5-c074-8df5-fb16ba2e94a2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: AIX probably still has them but graphic consoles are pretty rare now most AIX boxes are used as servers these days. Paul. On 2018-10-23 2:05 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 10/23/2018 10:47 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >> This may be an unfortunate mismatch of English idioms. > > Fair. > >> "Out there", to me, means "current, available/on sale/in use now, in >> active use and/or maintenance". > > I'm fairly sure that Solaris and AIX both continue to ship C.D.E. ;-) > >> That notwithstanding, I have to say, I still think it's ludicrous to >> imply that anything _before_ Win95 could have drawn upon it, even if >> making a negative statement. > > Hence why I prefer to be excruciatingly clear. > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 23 12:12:01 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 11:12:01 -0600 Subject: Desktop Metaphor In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 10/23/2018 4:33 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 at 21:19, ben via cctalk wrote: > >> Try and find a printed page size PDF >> reader, or one a tad smaller. Reading a PDF on a KINDLE DOES NOT WORK. > > I suggest you look at the Kindle DX. > > I bought one. I got it 2nd hand, from the USA, via eBay. > I piced up a used 9.7 inch Onyx Boox off ebay. I live in CANADA so got the useless AMAZON -- no selecton, massive shipping charges, and no products sold from CANADA. > https://www.amazon.com/Kindle-DX-Wireless-Reader-3G-Global/dp/B002GYWHSQ > > https://www.amazon.com/Kindle-Wireless-Reading-Display-Globally/dp/B0015TG12Q > When I was looking for a new reader, all I could find was the 6" crap on the web, thus my kindle statement. Until they bring back the DX I still feel we are stuck with crappy low priced readers and windows 95 windows. > One of the main reasons I got it is that it renders PDFs well and a > lot of important computer history books and the like are only readily > available as PDFs. Where do you get them? I know of Bitsavers but that is all. Ben. PS: WIRTH still has his stuff around for GUI system. https://people.inf.ethz.ch/wirth/ From aperry at snowmoose.com Tue Oct 23 12:19:58 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 10:19:58 -0700 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <1bba29ea-7dd5-c074-8df5-fb16ba2e94a2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: Even though Oracle only sells server hardware running Solaris, there are customers running Solaris on laptops and other systems with graphic consoles. When I bring up Solaris 11.4 in VirtualBox, I get a Gnome desktop. (I work on USB and boot, so I don't pay much attention to the desktop and couldn't tell you what version of Gnome it is.) alan - insert blurb about not speaking for my employer - On 10/23/18 10:08 AM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > AIX probably still has them but graphic consoles are pretty rare now > most AIX boxes are used as servers these days. > > Paul. > > > On 2018-10-23 2:05 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> On 10/23/2018 10:47 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >>> This may be an unfortunate mismatch of English idioms. >> >> Fair. >> >>> "Out there", to me, means "current, available/on sale/in use now, in >>> active use and/or maintenance". >> >> I'm fairly sure that Solaris and AIX both continue to ship C.D.E. ;-) >> >>> That notwithstanding, I have to say, I still think it's ludicrous to >>> imply that anything _before_ Win95 could have drawn upon it, even if >>> making a negative statement. >> >> Hence why I prefer to be excruciatingly clear. >> >> >> > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Oct 23 12:21:46 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 14:21:46 -0300 Subject: High res e-readers - was Re: Desktop Metaphor In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3469b75d-67db-0700-ff71-5972aa3fba3c@telegraphics.com.au> On 2018-10-23 2:12 p.m., ben via cctalk wrote: > On 10/23/2018 4:33 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 at 21:19, ben via cctalk >> wrote: >> >>> Try and find a printed page size PDF >>> reader, or one a tad smaller. Reading a PDF on a KINDLE DOES NOT WORK. >> >> I suggest you look at the Kindle DX. >> >> I bought one. I got it 2nd hand, from the USA, via eBay. >> > > I piced up a used 9.7 inch Onyx Boox off ebay. > I live in CANADA so got the useless AMAZON -- no selecton, massive > shipping charges, and no products sold from CANADA. Kobo is sold in Canada. The Aura HD is 265dpi with 6.8" diagonal. Fine for reading PDFs. And the newer model H2O is just as good, I use mine every day. --Toby > >> https://www.amazon.com/Kindle-DX-Wireless-Reader-3G-Global/dp/B002GYWHSQ >> >> https://www.amazon.com/Kindle-Wireless-Reading-Display-Globally/dp/B0015TG12Q >> >> > > When I was looking for a new reader, all I could find was the 6" crap > on the web, thus my kindle statement. Until they bring back the DX > I still feel we are stuck with crappy low priced readers and windows 95 > windows. > >> One of the main reasons I got it is that it renders PDFs well and a >> lot of important computer history books and the like are only readily >> available as PDFs. > > Where do you get them? I know of Bitsavers but that is all. > Ben. > PS: WIRTH still has his stuff around for GUI system. > https://people.inf.ethz.ch/wirth/ > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 23 12:27:28 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 11:27:28 -0600 Subject: Desktop Metaphor In-Reply-To: <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On 10/23/2018 6:02 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > I have a 15" 2880 by 1800 display on my laptop, which has a pretty good PDF > reader which will show two pages side-by-side. The resolution is high enough > that it's as good as reading off paper, albeit scaled down to about 70% because > the screen is physically smaller than A4. > I use the old TV format low res 800x600 windows for windows because I can't read TINY STUFF. > Plug my laptop into a nice HiDPI monitor -- or indeed any good-enough laptop > into one of those cheap 4K monitors which use scummy UHD TV panels -- and PDFs > become gloriously large and crisp. Go on, find ?300 or so and treat yourself to > a new display. > I love music so all my money is spent nice flat ELECTROSTATIC speakers and VALVE amps, and NEW VINYL. Modern computers are just to play with on the web and read mail and download DR WHO. Ben. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Oct 23 12:37:00 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 11:37:00 -0600 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <1bba29ea-7dd5-c074-8df5-fb16ba2e94a2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 10/23/2018 11:19 AM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > When I bring up Solaris 11.4 in VirtualBox, I get a Gnome desktop. Ya, I think that Solaris has started using Gnome as the default desktop. But I'm fairly sure that C.D.E. is still there and a menu choice away at login time. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 12:40:29 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 19:40:29 +0200 Subject: Desktop Metaphor In-Reply-To: <21cd1b7a-2c8b-3add-405a-4618bf33fec5@gmail.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <5bcf01c3.1c69fb81.e66f4.0c02@mx.google.com> <5BCF452D.8020600@pico-systems.com> <21cd1b7a-2c8b-3add-405a-4618bf33fec5@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 at 18:59, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > > This is my issue with a lot of Linux distros they seem to try to hard to > look and work like mac or like windows while I would rather have them > look and work like the xwindows I knew and loved. One of my biggest > aggravations is cut and paste I would very much rather it worked more > like it used to on X. If you want it old-style, build it old-style. Install the minimal or server version of Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, whatever you want, then install X.org and your window manager of choice. This is how I have been experimentally assembling GNUstep desktops for years now. My favourite minimalist no "desktop" /per se/ distro is Crunchbang -- you might want to look at BunsenLabs or Crunchbang++. Another comparable option is Tiny Core Linux, but I haven't tried it myself. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 12:43:21 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 19:43:21 +0200 Subject: Desktop Metaphor In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 at 19:12, ben wrote: > > On 10/23/2018 4:33 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > > On Mon, 22 Oct 2018 at 21:19, ben via cctalk wrote: > > > >> Try and find a printed page size PDF > >> reader, or one a tad smaller. Reading a PDF on a KINDLE DOES NOT WORK. > > > > I suggest you look at the Kindle DX. > > > > I bought one. I got it 2nd hand, from the USA, via eBay. > > > > I piced up a used 9.7 inch Onyx Boox off ebay. > I live in CANADA so got the useless AMAZON -- no selecton, massive > shipping charges, and no products sold from CANADA. I do use Amazon, but I live in the Czech Republic. There's no Czech Amazon either (although the company has a big office here.) But I don't buy ebooks, at all, from anyone, so I don't care. I use Calibre to sync stuff to/from my Kindle DX, or just mount it as a filesystem and copy it in manually. https://calibre-ebook.com/ > When I was looking for a new reader, all I could find was the 6" crap > on the web, thus my kindle statement. Until they bring back the DX > I still feel we are stuck with crappy low priced readers and windows 95 > windows. I found a PDF that reliably caused my Kindle DX to reboot the moment I opened it. So I bought a cheap Chinese tablet (a Chuwi Hi9 Air) and now I mostly use that. > Where do you get them? I know of Bitsavers but that is all. Lots of places -- there are many. Scribd is one. Direct downloads, mostly. > PS: WIRTH still has his stuff around for GUI system. > https://people.inf.ethz.ch/wirth/ Yes, that's on there. :-) -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 23 12:45:19 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 10:45:19 -0700 Subject: Computers that never crash (Was: Microsoft-Paul Allen) In-Reply-To: <2BAE238D-B365-4061-B254-C84F712EF4A3@snowmoose.com> References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <20181022221605.1762E2757C@mx1.ezwind.net> <5BCE7988.4050409@pico-systems.com> <5BCF42CF.7030704@pico-systems.com> <2BAE238D-B365-4061-B254-C84F712EF4A3@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On 10/23/18 9:32 AM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > I have a RPi dedicated to a SIMH VAX-11/750 running BSD that I > intended to leave up and rack up some impressive uptime. Then I was > reminded by the local electricity provider that this isn?t the right > place to try that. We get clear day, calm weather power outages > here. If it doesn't crash, you're not running a sufficiently varied and demanding workload. c.f.Jim Gray's 1985 paper here: http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/tandem/TR-85.7.pdf --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 12:45:20 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 19:45:20 +0200 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <1bba29ea-7dd5-c074-8df5-fb16ba2e94a2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 at 19:05, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 10/23/2018 10:47 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > This may be an unfortunate mismatch of English idioms. > > Fair. > > > "Out there", to me, means "current, available/on sale/in use now, in > > active use and/or maintenance". > > I'm fairly sure that Solaris and AIX both continue to ship C.D.E. ;-) Solaris is EOL and is no longer in development. However, Solaris 11 switched to GNOME 2, nearly a decade ago. AFAIK neither Oracle nor IBM make workstations any more, only headless servers, so it's rather academic. > Hence why I prefer to be excruciatingly clear. I generally try, at least with my professional hat on. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From rickb at bensene.com Tue Oct 23 12:46:32 2018 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 10:46:32 -0700 Subject: Desktop Metaphor In-Reply-To: <60B736BF-F035-495A-ACF1-66120CAB776E@gmail.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <60B736BF-F035-495A-ACF1-66120CAB776E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48C@mail.bensene.com> Curious Marc wrote: >Curiously, the Xerox Alto has quite advanced GUI and object oriented programming (including the smalltalk windowing environment), >but no desktop metaphor or icons that I have seen. I believe desktop metaphors appear later in the Alto commercial successor, the >Xerox Star, and in the Apple Lisa, which bears strong Xerox influences. Xerox?s desktop metaphor pushes the object concept a bit far, >while the Lisa got what would become the modern ubiquitous version of the concept almost dead on. Did I get this approximately >right? Are there any other GUI desktop metaphors that predates this? Marc is correct here. My memory was faulty in my original posting about the "Desktop Metaphor". The Alto, at least in its initial incarnation didn't really have a true desktop metaphor, though prototypes of the desktop environment may have run on it internally to PARC. The Star, which was a commercial product (as opposed to Alto), definitely did, and that's where my memory was faulty. Thanks, Marc, for pointing out my error. A place I worked for many, many years ago was involved with Smalltalk and OO database development. They had a working Xerox Smalltalk machine, and that's what I remembered the desktop metaphor from, but was thinking it was an Alto. After doing a little digging through old notes, I realized my memory of the machine was incorrect, and that the machine they had was a Star. I remember tinkering around with the Star, which by the time I was at the company, had been pretty much put out to pasture. The environment was quite intuitive, and easy to use, though it took me a little while to get my mind wrapped around the concept of Smalltalk, because I had no exposure to object environments prior to playing with the machine. I was surprised at how responsive the machine was considering that the tech in it by that time was pretty old. It was definitely an education playing with it. I wonder whatever happened to that machine? Hmmm...maybe I should send out some Emails to folks that I worked with back then..... The only other desktop metaphor environment that existed around this same time was at Tektronix, though the work at Tektronix was slightly behind the work at Xerox, was heavily based on the developments at Xerox, and the work was done under license from Xerox with regard to the Smalltalk-80 implementation used on the machine. Tektronix created a machine called Magnolia that used a Smalltalk environment like the Alto/Star, had a bitmapped display and a desktop GUI. Prototypes of the machine were running in early 1981, and it was quite refined by '82. The machine never became a product, though it did pave the way for a couple of generations of Smalltalk-based workstations introduced by Tektronix beginning in late '84. -Rick From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Oct 23 12:47:34 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 11:47:34 -0600 Subject: Desktop Metaphor In-Reply-To: <21cd1b7a-2c8b-3add-405a-4618bf33fec5@gmail.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <5bcf01c3.1c69fb81.e66f4.0c02@mx.google.com> <5BCF452D.8020600@pico-systems.com> <21cd1b7a-2c8b-3add-405a-4618bf33fec5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0e9c0774-6ff8-dba6-5849-74c0ca61a066@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 10/23/2018 10:59 AM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > This is my issue with a lot of Linux distros they seem to try to hard to > look and work like mac or like windows while I would rather have them > look and work like the xwindows I knew and loved.? One of my biggest > aggravations is cut and paste I would very much rather it worked more > like it used to on X. I don't know what we're doing differently, but am and have been using what I know to be standard X11 primary selection buffer with middle click to paste. I do periodically use the actual clipboard in combination with the primary selection buffer so that I can hold two things at once. I've also started selecting content, copying the primary selection to the secondary buffer for part of my workflow. Aside: Is anyone aware of anything that uses the secondary selection buffer. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 23 12:48:02 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 10:48:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <1bba29ea-7dd5-c074-8df5-fb16ba2e94a2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Oct 2018, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > That notwithstanding, I have to say, I still think it's ludicrous to > imply that anything _before_ Win95 could have drawn upon it, even if > making a negative statement. "The simplistic style is partly explained by the fact that its editors, having to meet a publishing deadline, copied the information off the back of a packet of breakfast cereal, hastily embroidering it with a few foot notes in order to avoid prosecution under the incomprehensibly torturous Galactic Copyright Laws. Its interesting to note that a later and wilier editor sent the book backwards in time, through a temporal warp, and then successfully sued the breakfast cereal company for infringement of the same laws." -HHGTTG For those prone to misinterpretation, "wilier editor" is NOT a reference to "John Wiley & Sons" publishers. From blstuart at bellsouth.net Tue Oct 23 12:49:39 2018 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 17:49:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Desktop Metaphor References: <1561715041.14843419.1540316979518.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1561715041.14843419.1540316979518@mail.yahoo.com> On Tue, 10/23/18, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > This is my issue with a lot of Linux distros they seem to try to hard to > look and work like mac or like windows while I would rather have them > look and work like the xwindows I knew and loved.? One of my biggest > aggravations is cut and paste I would very much rather it worked more > like it used to on X. Amen Brother! I mostly use rio (based on the same named windowing system on Plan 9) for my window manager so at least I get to avoid the dancing frogs. But back in the '80s we were using a much nicer approach to cut-and-paste on X than the commercial guys ever managed. Time to take my cane back inside now that I've finished yelling at the kiddies to get off my lawn. BLS From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Oct 23 12:50:15 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 13:50:15 -0400 Subject: Computers that never crash (Was: Microsoft-Paul Allen) In-Reply-To: References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <20181022221605.1762E2757C@mx1.ezwind.net> <5BCE7988.4050409@pico-systems.com> <5BCF42CF.7030704@pico-systems.com> <2BAE238D-B365-4061-B254-C84F712EF4A3@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: > On Oct 23, 2018, at 1:45 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 10/23/18 9:32 AM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > >> I have a RPi dedicated to a SIMH VAX-11/750 running BSD that I >> intended to leave up and rack up some impressive uptime. Then I was >> reminded by the local electricity provider that this isn?t the right >> place to try that. We get clear day, calm weather power outages >> here. > If it doesn't crash, you're not running a sufficiently varied and > demanding workload. Or you may be running it on a sufficiently well designed OS. paul From cym224 at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 12:50:59 2018 From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 13:50:59 -0400 Subject: Desktop Metaphor In-Reply-To: <5bcf01c3.1c69fb81.e66f4.0c02@mx.google.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <5bcf01c3.1c69fb81.e66f4.0c02@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On 23/10/2018, Geoffrey Oltmans via cctalk wrote (in part): > I?d say that Windows 95?s UI blew the doors off of anything I?d used up that > point in terms of usability. Interesting... I recall gathering around a colleague's PC many years ago. One of us noticed his screen and said "Hey, you switched to OS/2." He replied, "No. Win95". It really fooled a lot of us. N. From aperry at snowmoose.com Tue Oct 23 12:56:12 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 10:56:12 -0700 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <1bba29ea-7dd5-c074-8df5-fb16ba2e94a2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 10/23/18 10:37 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 10/23/2018 11:19 AM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: >> When I bring up Solaris 11.4 in VirtualBox, I get a Gnome desktop. > > Ya, I think that Solaris has started using Gnome as the default > desktop. ?But I'm fairly sure that C.D.E. is still there and a menu > choice away at login time. > > > Solaris 10 defaulted to Java Desktop System (based on Gnome) and the various Solaris 11 released defaulted to other versions of Gnome (I don't know enough about Gnome to identify the versions). I think that since Solaris 11 11/11 (the original S11 release) there has been no CDE, only Gnome. From aperry at snowmoose.com Tue Oct 23 13:00:57 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 11:00:57 -0700 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <1bba29ea-7dd5-c074-8df5-fb16ba2e94a2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <20d426e7-3471-727f-168e-73f7f320569c@snowmoose.com> On 10/23/18 10:45 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 at 19:05, Grant Taylor via cctalk > wrote: >> On 10/23/2018 10:47 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >>> This may be an unfortunate mismatch of English idioms. >> Fair. >> >>> "Out there", to me, means "current, available/on sale/in use now, in >>> active use and/or maintenance". >> I'm fairly sure that Solaris and AIX both continue to ship C.D.E. ;-) > Solaris is EOL and is no longer in development. However, Solaris 11 > switched to GNOME 2, nearly a decade ago. Excuse me, but I work for Oracle on Solaris (primarily on USB code) and it is not EOL. Oracle just released Solaris 11.4 and the next release is being worked on. alan - insert that not speaking for my disclaimer again - From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 23 13:01:42 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 11:01:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Aphorism (Was: Computers that never crash (Was: Microsoft-Paul Allen) In-Reply-To: References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <20181022221605.1762E2757C@mx1.ezwind.net> <5BCE7988.4050409@pico-systems.com> <5BCF42CF.7030704@pico-systems.com> <2BAE238D-B365-4061-B254-C84F712EF4A3@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Oct 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > "If it doesn't crash, you're not running a sufficiently varied and > demanding workload." Are rights available for wall plaques, T-shirts, and bumper stickers? From aperry at snowmoose.com Tue Oct 23 13:02:20 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 11:02:20 -0700 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: <20d426e7-3471-727f-168e-73f7f320569c@snowmoose.com> References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <1bba29ea-7dd5-c074-8df5-fb16ba2e94a2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20d426e7-3471-727f-168e-73f7f320569c@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <11a42a81-e7c4-8240-31a7-5177e1596754@snowmoose.com> On 10/23/18 11:00 AM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > > > On 10/23/18 10:45 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >> On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 at 19:05, Grant Taylor via cctalk >> wrote: >>> On 10/23/2018 10:47 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >>>> This may be an unfortunate mismatch of English idioms. >>> Fair. >>> >>>> "Out there", to me, means "current, available/on sale/in use now, in >>>> active use and/or maintenance". >>> I'm fairly sure that Solaris and AIX both continue to ship C.D.E.? ;-) >> Solaris is EOL and is no longer in development. However, Solaris 11 >> switched to GNOME 2, nearly a decade ago. > Excuse me, but I work for Oracle on Solaris (primarily on USB code) > and it is not EOL. Oracle just released Solaris 11.4 and the next > release is being worked on. > > alan > - insert that not speaking for my disclaimer again - not speaking for my *employer* disclaimer > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 23 13:06:44 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 11:06:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: <20d426e7-3471-727f-168e-73f7f320569c@snowmoose.com> References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <1bba29ea-7dd5-c074-8df5-fb16ba2e94a2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20d426e7-3471-727f-168e-73f7f320569c@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: > Excuse me, but I work for xxx and it is not EOL. Outsider EOL predictions sometimes lead to a spike in workload for the Real-Time Resume' Updater. (cf. "aerospace collapse" just under half a century ago) From commodorejohn at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 13:09:37 2018 From: commodorejohn at gmail.com (John Ames) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 11:09:37 -0700 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen Message-ID: > Grant Taylor wrote: >> *Every* Unix desktop out there draws on Win95. > > Nope. That's simply not true. > > The following three vast families of window managers / desktops prove > (to my satisfaction) that your statement is wrong. > > ? Common Desktop Environment (a.k.a. CDE) and it's ilk. > ? The various *Box window managers / desktop environments. > ? Motif window manager and it's ilk. > > They are all significantly different from each other and from Windows's > Explorer interface, first publicly debuting with Windows 95. There's also the Afterstep/Window Maker crowd, open-source reimplementations of the NEXTSTEP desktop environment, which predates even Windows 3.x. Win95 was certainly very influential in the design and refinement of many other desktop environments going forward, but it's not the be-all and end-all of anything. >> Liam Proven wrote: > > How many graphical Unix desktops are sold or distributed in the world > today that are not Linux? Excluding Mac OS X as I specifically address > that point, I think. > > Now, I can point to 3 living (FSVO "living") descendants of those OSes: > > * CDE is now FOSS > (It had a conceptual re-implementation, the XForms Common Environment, > XFCE. Here's a screenshot: > https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/19/Xfce3.jpg > Note, it has now moved to a Windows-like model) > > AFAIK no current or historical full-function general-purpose Linux > offers CDE as a desktop choice. > > * NeXTstep inspired GNUstep > http://www.gnustep.org/ > (and LiteStep but that's now dead) > > No current or historical full-function general-purpose Linux offers > GNUstep as a desktop choice. > > * Risc OS inspired the ROX Desktop: > http://rox.sourceforge.net/desktop/ > > Again, no current or historical full-function general-purpose Linux > offers ROX as a desktop choice. But this is kind of a questionable standard to begin with, because the whole point in the Freenix world is choice. No distributions offer those as default options during the install process, but all of them (aside from CDE, which only just went open-source a couple years ago and is still in the process of being cleaned up and forward-ported to modern *nixen) are available in the repositories for most major distributions, and all of them are still actively updated. > BeOS used the Windows model. Kinda-sorta-not-really. BeOS (like just about everything post-1995) takes cues from Win95, but its roots are in classic Mac OS and it definitely hews closer to that in most respects, despite the absence of a global menu bar. > Outside of Apple, I think it is fair to say that no new OS or desktop > environment since 1995 has used anything other than the Win95 model. Haiku says hi. Or would, if they could spare the time from trying to awkwardly kludge Linux development models into a BeOS world. > The fact that there are a small handful of clones of the Apple Mac OS > X GUI doesn't really invalidate this point. This "aside from the things that don't match up with my argument, my argument is flawless!" line of reasoning is novel. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 23 13:10:38 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 11:10:38 -0700 Subject: Desktop Metaphor In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48C@mail.bensene.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <60B736BF-F035-495A-ACF1-66120CAB776E@gmail.com> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48C@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <34ce2d8b-3980-c1bb-3f8b-bfe39c2eadd2@bitsavers.org> On 10/23/18 10:46 AM, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: > I remember tinkering around with the Star, which by the time I was at the company, had been pretty much put out to pasture. The environment was quite intuitive, and easy to use, though it took me a little while to get my mind wrapped around the concept of Smalltalk, because I had no exposure to object environments prior to playing with the machine. I was surprised at how responsive the machine was considering that the tech in it by that time was pretty old. It was definitely an education playing with it. I wonder whatever happened to that machine? Hmmm...maybe I should send out some Emails to folks that I worked with back then..... > Finding an 8010 running Smalltalk is one of the missing links. So far, no one has been able to get the 6085 images working I recovered a few years ago. 8010 and 6085 Smalltalk were marketed by Xerox Special Information Systems in Pasadena Some information is available under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/xerox/xsis "Golden Tiger" which evolved into Analyst were developed for a three letter government agency. From jim.manley at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 13:12:14 2018 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 12:12:14 -0600 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: <855B45E8-51C2-480E-B89A-5D33E683CBDE@shiresoft.com> References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <855B45E8-51C2-480E-B89A-5D33E683CBDE@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 3:59 PM Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > An (optional) X server (and clients) can be added to the OS (I use them > all the time) but > is not part of the base install ... > Wrong. Apple has been using self-customized, optimized-for their-hardware supersets of the VNC protocol (which is X based) for Screen Sharing since early versions of OS X, if not from the beginning, and It's (still) In There (per Prego spaghetti sauce ads) in the latest versions of OS X. I do have some first-gen PowerPC systems that I need to see if they power up (ironic name, PowerPC!), let alone boot, and then I'll have to find original OS X boot media ... some of us have actual lives, though, so don't hold your breath! BTW, the X server on OS X, interfaces not to the bit-map but instead to the > native OS X display rendering framework. > That's not possible, at least when communicating cross-platform, where bitmaps are the only representation. Projects such as Wayland and Weston are attempting to provide a modern alternative to X that fully supports vector representations (using GPU hardware acceleration), through a protocol and supporting library for a compositing window manager (Wayland) and a compositor reference implementation (Weston). XWayland implements a compatibility layer to seamlessly run legacy X11 applications on Wayland. A few years ago, the Raspberry Pi Foundation was funding this effort, in part, but it was too soon then, and I don't know what the statuses of the projects are, at this point, although instructions for building the software for Linux are Out There. Support for Retina and HiDPI displays is mentioned, but I didn't see anything explicitly about OS X or Windows support in a cursory scan of the associated wikis - I assume they're talking about running Wayland/Weston on Linux using Apple and PC hardware. GNOME and KDE are fully supported, since that's where development started. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 23 13:17:45 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 11:17:45 -0700 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <855B45E8-51C2-480E-B89A-5D33E683CBDE@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On 10/23/18 11:12 AM, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 3:59 PM Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > >> An (optional) X server (and clients) can be added to the OS (I use them >> all the time) but >> is not part of the base install ... >> > > Wrong. Jim, have you ever WORKED for Apple???? Both Guy and I have, and your level of misinformation on topics both he and I are VERY familiar with is getting annoying. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 23 13:31:23 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 11:31:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Oct 2018, John Ames via cctalk wrote: > Haiku says hi. Or would, if they could spare the time from trying to > awkwardly kludge Linux development models into a BeOS world. Apple said, "hello" DRI GEM said, "Hi" Apple sued. From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 13:41:38 2018 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 15:41:38 -0300 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <1bba29ea-7dd5-c074-8df5-fb16ba2e94a2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 2018-10-23 2:45 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 at 19:05, Grant Taylor via cctalk > wrote: >> On 10/23/2018 10:47 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >>> This may be an unfortunate mismatch of English idioms. >> Fair. >> >>> "Out there", to me, means "current, available/on sale/in use now, in >>> active use and/or maintenance". >> I'm fairly sure that Solaris and AIX both continue to ship C.D.E. ;-) > Solaris is EOL and is no longer in development. However, Solaris 11 > switched to GNOME 2, nearly a decade ago. > > AFAIK neither Oracle nor IBM make workstations any more, only headless > servers, so it's rather academic. > >> Hence why I prefer to be excruciatingly clear. > I generally try, at least with my professional hat on. > You can still get a graphics adapter with lower end P9 AIX systems but not on the high end machines maybe because there is no place to plug in a keyboard. Paul. From aperry at snowmoose.com Tue Oct 23 13:45:54 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 11:45:54 -0700 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <1bba29ea-7dd5-c074-8df5-fb16ba2e94a2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 10/23/18 11:41 AM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > > > On 2018-10-23 2:45 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >> On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 at 19:05, Grant Taylor via cctalk >> wrote: >>> On 10/23/2018 10:47 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >>>> This may be an unfortunate mismatch of English idioms. >>> Fair. >>> >>>> "Out there", to me, means "current, available/on sale/in use now, in >>>> active use and/or maintenance". >>> I'm fairly sure that Solaris and AIX both continue to ship C.D.E.? ;-) >> >> >> AFAIK neither Oracle nor IBM make workstations any more, only headless >> servers, so it's rather academic. Oracle does not make workstations, but, as I said, Oracle's customers can and do run Solaris on systems with heads. alan From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Oct 23 13:53:35 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 11:53:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Desktop Metaphor In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Oct 2018, ben via cctalk wrote: > Modern computers are just to play with on the web and read mail and > download DR WHO. > I'll jump out of my massively-multiplayer VR air combat rig long enough to remind you that you forgot to shout at a cloud and chase the kids off your lawn. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Oct 23 13:55:53 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 11:55:53 -0700 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <855B45E8-51C2-480E-B89A-5D33E683CBDE@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > On Oct 23, 2018, at 11:12 AM, Jim Manley wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 3:59 PM Guy Sotomayor Jr > wrote: > An (optional) X server (and clients) can be added to the OS (I use them all the time) but > is not part of the base install ... > > Wrong. Apple has been using self-customized, optimized-for their-hardware supersets of the VNC protocol (which is X based) for Screen Sharing since early versions of OS X, if not from the beginning, and It's (still) In There (per Prego spaghetti sauce ads) in the latest versions of OS X. I do have some first-gen PowerPC systems that I need to see if they power up (ironic name, PowerPC!), let alone boot, and then I'll have to find original OS X boot media ... some of us have actual lives, though, so don't hold your breath! That?s distinct from the X server and apps that are available as a separate download (and I believe that now they point to Xorg). > > BTW, the X server on OS X, interfaces not to the bit-map but instead to the > native OS X display rendering framework. > > That's not possible, at least when communicating cross-platform, where bitmaps are the only representation. Projects such as Wayland and Weston are attempting to provide a modern alternative to X that fully supports vector representations (using GPU hardware acceleration), through a protocol and supporting library for a compositing window manager (Wayland) and a compositor reference implementation (Weston). XWayland implements a compatibility layer to seamlessly run legacy X11 applications on Wayland. A few years ago, the Raspberry Pi Foundation was funding this effort, in part, but it was too soon then, and I don't know what the statuses of the projects are, at this point, although instructions for building the software for Linux are Out There. Support for Retina and HiDPI displays is mentioned, but I didn't see anything explicitly about OS X or Windows support in a cursory scan of the associated wikis - I assume they're talking about running Wayland/Weston on Linux using Apple and PC hardware. GNOME and KDE are fully supported, since that's where development started. *sigh* Yes, it is. Just as there exist X implementations that use the GPU to accelerate rendering. It says *nothing* about the cross platform protocol. It?s how the X server communicates with the rendering hardware or in OS X?s case the software interface to do the rendering. As far as OS X is concerned, X is just another OS X application that wants to render to the screen. I use it all the time and it works well along side the normal OS X applications which wouldn?t be possible if the X server wrote directly to the HW. TTFN - Guy From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 23 14:30:58 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 12:30:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Desktop Metaphor In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Oct 2018, ben via cctalk wrote: > Modern computers are just to play with on the web and read mail and > download DR WHO. Remember when "personal" computers were on a par with model trains for "practicality" and "usefulness". I've got the Doctor Who MP4 files on a SATA III drive plugged into a Seagate GoFlex-TV streamer. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Oct 23 15:07:06 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 16:07:06 -0400 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <166a289b85b-1ec1-75ea@webjas-vab025.srv.aolmail.net> I like? my? ?xps. I? do not? make? grocery lists on it? I? edit? news? video? with it...? ?for? video editing faster is better and? what? I? really? want is? not? yet? ?fast? enough! ? ? speaking of? ?video and? keyboards and computers... ? I? need? an AMIGA? keyboard? to go with? the? Amiga? with video toaster one of? our cable? TV? friends? ?contributed for a? display here...? the? enigma? now is? which? display to put it in?? computers or? ?video production and television?? ?Think I? will put it in? video production? ?as? what? makes it? unique? is the? video toaster? card... ? ? Ed# ? In a message dated 10/19/2018 12:14:51 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? >>> the ps2 to usb adapters do not work well with my dell xps >>> go fast computer! >> That would explain all the extra spaces... On Fri, 19 Oct 2018, ben via cctalk wrote: > I wonder how many letters got deleated while the mail program's input got > lost as the fast computer popup windows kept popping up. > Is just me, but is keyboad input geting slower and slower on web stuff, > even the old 110 buad tty gave better response running under a PDP/8. Computer Software Boyle's Law: extraneous actions, features, ads, etc. will expand to fill all available space and speed resources. For example: Operating system distribution requires a double layer DVD, instead of a single sided 5.25" floppy. When you want to type a shopping list, is it quicker on the new machine? (How long from power cycle on the amazingly fast Dell XPS before Office gives you a blank document screen?) Does a shopping list need to have PICTURES of eggs? 10 years ago, at the college, a memo announcing a room or time change for a meeting was done on Word, printed in color, scanned, and attached to an email. (I'm not sure WHY, but how else to get a horizontal rule that was offset by a couple of pixels from one end to the other?) I wonder whether they have now switched from the same half dozen words now being done with video and sound? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Oct 23 15:09:42 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 16:09:42 -0400 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <166a28c1907-1ec4-534@webjas-vad190.srv.aolmail.net> dunno? ?what? ?being a? gamer? has? to? do? with it? working or not... ? my? problem was it? would? just? ?have the keyboard? go away and? not? respond... tried? several I? had... worked on older? computers... ? ? oh well!? ? ? Ed# In a message dated 10/19/2018 11:14:11 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? > So, at least I have an excuse. The model Ms work fine for me--I use one > of the PCPlay-based USB keyboard+mouse adapters. But then, I'm not a > gamer... > > --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 23 15:26:51 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 13:26:51 -0700 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: <166a28c1907-1ec4-534@webjas-vad190.srv.aolmail.net> References: <166a28c1907-1ec4-534@webjas-vad190.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <8adf4f1e-1c82-90d4-8731-374abeb8d26e@sydex.com> On 10/23/18 1:09 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > dunno? ?what? ?being a? gamer? has? to? do? with it? working or not... It's always seemed to me that gamers use/abuse keyboards more than those of us who simply use them to type. Maybe that's a mistaken impression. --Chuck From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Oct 23 15:31:02 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 16:31:02 -0400 Subject: Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: <8adf4f1e-1c82-90d4-8731-374abeb8d26e@sydex.com> Message-ID: <166a29f9fa2-1ec1-2cfe@webjas-vac175.srv.aolmail.net> Hi? Chuck!? Ah? the? frantic? keys pounding? and screaming? while? playing? Maybe....? ?yea?I poke? mine? pretty? slow...? ?there are? some? days? I have? trouble? making? my? fingers? type... maybe? I? type? too? slow!!?!?? ? I? am looking at? a? site that? ?says? ?cheap? usb? ps2 adapters? are? ?not? active? ?circuits thus? can cause? problems... I? suspect mine? are? cheap ones ? any? truth? on? this? site? ? ? https://clickykeyboards.com/product/ps2-to-usb-adapter-converter-for-keyboards-short-usb-cable/ ? ? Ed# ? In a message dated 10/23/2018 1:26:58 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? On 10/23/18 1:09 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > dunno? ?what? ?being a? gamer? has? to? do? with it? working or not... It's always seemed to me that gamers use/abuse keyboards more than those of us who simply use them to type. Maybe that's a mistaken impression. --Chuck From jim.manley at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 15:54:44 2018 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 14:54:44 -0600 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <04d101d467bf$e271cbb0$a7556310$@verizon.net> <32cf2e38-c3ab-1589-bdae-2bc0dadc174b@bitsavers.org> <04f001d467d6$023188d0$06949a70$@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 9:34 AM Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Oct 22, 2018, 02:36 Jim Manley wrote: > > Microsoft did offer a RAM expansion board specifically to allow the > Softcard to access 64K of RAM dedicated to CP/M, > > Even that wasn't dedicated to CP/M. It was a 16K RAM card that was > equivalent to the Apple "Language Card", which allowed replacing the 12K of > ROM of the Apple II and II+ with 16K of RAM, of which 4K had two banks. > Although it was useful with the Softcard, it wasn't in any way specific to > it. > From https://www.pcmag.com/feature/300240/the-secret-history-of-microsoft-hardware/2 - "Microsoft RAMCard for Apple II (1980) Microsoft produced the Apple II RAMCard as an accessory card for its Z80 SoftCard ... The RAMCard plugged into one of an Apple II's free slots and provided 16KB of additional system memory (brining the total to 56KB) for CP/M programs running on the SoftCard." MS's ad for the card appears above the writeup. Dedicated only applies to the Premiere Softcard for the //e, which is what I had. The bottom line is that this Microsoft product was _developed_for_and_sold_with_their_Softcard_. The wise (and unavoidable, without a lot of extra work) benefit to other software running on an Apple has nothing to do with its primary intent. Visicalc and other software was modified to take advantage of the 56K memory footprint this card made available, but that doesn't detract from its primary intended use with the Softcard in any way, shape, or form. All models of the Softcard could output 80 x 24 text, not only through > third-party cards, but Apple's own 64K RAM and 80 x 24 video combo card, > > Which was only available for the IIe. I stand by my assertion that the > Softcard did not in any way provide 80x24 text. It could use the capability > if it was separately provided. > Oh, really? Then where did the CP/M 80x24 text bits come from, outer space? They came from the Softcard - the means for how it appeared in front of the user's eyes isn't important. You remind me of people who insisted that MHz and MBs were the sine qua non for evaluating systems during The Spec Wars of the 1980s and 1990s. Nowadays, no one even pays any attention to such trivia, because it's meaningless, and always has been. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 23 16:07:24 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 15:07:24 -0600 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/23/2018 1:30 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 23 Oct 2018, ben via cctalk wrote: >> Modern computers are just to play with on the web and read mail and >> download DR WHO. > > Remember when "personal" computers were on a par with model trains for > "practicality" and "usefulness". > > I've got the Doctor Who MP4 files on a SATA III drive plugged into a > Seagate GoFlex-TV streamer. Since this is the CLASSIC **** LIST I only watch the 70's Dr Who :) > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred???????????? cisin at xenosoft.com > Still designing a early 1970's computer 74181 ALU/ 74170 RAM 256x4 PROMS and CORE STYLE memory. The design will be something 18 bits, just after the time the PDP-8/e came out. Just waiting for my PDF reader to arrive so I can dig up more information about that time on general purpose computers at that time. You just seemed to have 3 kinds of computers back then, a simple 16 or 12 bits, a decimal or special order product or a large 32/36 bit machine in a educational or lab environment. I have a lot of ideas, but I just can't find a clean simple design yet. I notice a people are digging up the PDP-8 as a computer. Basic FPGA development cards are now a dime a dozen, so are there other computers worth looking at in hind sight as re-build project or simh emulation? The PDP 11 is nice machine, but I am looking for simpler designs where 16K words is a valid memory size for a OS and small single user software. Ben. From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Oct 23 16:12:52 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 17:12:52 -0400 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > On Oct 23, 2018, at 5:07 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > > ... > The PDP 11 is nice machine, but I am looking for simpler designs > where 16K words is a valid memory size for a OS and small single user software. 16k words (or even 8k words) is a fine memory size for a single user OS on PDP11. RT-11 runs fine in that, at least the older versions. I used to run RT-11 on an 8kW machine with an RC11 system disk. DOS-11 also fits in that, if you're masochistic enough to want to try that OS. paul From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 23 16:31:44 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 15:31:44 -0600 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <72280eb8-f390-55cf-0ec7-7be71638aa8d@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/23/2018 3:12 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Oct 23, 2018, at 5:07 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >> >> ... >> The PDP 11 is nice machine, but I am looking for simpler designs >> where 16K words is a valid memory size for a OS and small single user software. > > 16k words (or even 8k words) is a fine memory size for a single user OS on PDP11. RT-11 runs fine in that, at least the older versions. I used to run RT-11 on an 8kW machine with an RC11 system disk. DOS-11 also fits in that, if you're masochistic enough to want to try that OS. > > paul > I have a DE-0 to run a PDP-11 from PDP2011 but I have hardware problems here with the monitor and keyboard I have. http://pdp2011.sytse.net/wordpress/ It is on the to-do list after I get a blinking lights computer running. Ben. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 23 17:04:34 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 15:04:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hyperland and Doctor Who (Was: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: >>> Modern computers are just to play with on the web and read mail and >>> download DR WHO. >> Remember when "personal" computers were on a par with model trains for >> "practicality" and "usefulness". >> I've got the Doctor Who MP4 files on a SATA III drive plugged into a >> Seagate GoFlex-TV streamer. On Tue, 23 Oct 2018, ben via cctalk wrote: > Since this is the CLASSIC **** LIST I only watch the 70's Dr Who :) Not sure, then, how to categorize "Shada". It was a [Tom Baker] Doctor Who story, written by Douglas Adams. It was being filmed in 1979, intended to air in the first couple of months in 1980. But, a labor strike caused it to not get completed. I'd call that "70's". In 2003?, a reconstruction was done, to complete it, using narration by Tom Baker to fill in the missing pieces. Is that still "70's"? Later, in 2017, it was reconstructed again, using animation for the missing scenes. That was released on DVD in UK almost a year ago. The USA release was delayed until last month, and played once on BBC America. Amazon.uk has had it available on DVD for a year; amazon.com (USA) should have it about now. Is that still "70's"? There were a LOT of Doctor Who episodes that got lost. At one time, videotape was more valuable for re-use than the expected unlikelihood of further re-runs. When it became profitable, BBC began reconstruction from VHS, re-transcoding from overseas copies, random archeological finds, etc. A major project. There are still quite a few unaccounted for. Consider: how would you recolourise something being reconstructed from B&W 16mm film? Besides manual and/or computer assisted Turner style recolorization, they developed ways to recolourise working from artifacts, such as the B&W 16mm film being high enough resolution to be able to differentiate the grey images of the RGB pixels of the colour screen that it was filmed from! OB_ON-Topic: In 1991, Douglas Adams, Ted nelson, and Tom Baker made a pre-WWW (or at least before WWW became popular) 25 minute BBC documentary about what the internet would become, called "Hyperland". None of the high-quality studio copies are extant. I talked to Ted Nelson last week; he has/had a studio VHS somewhere, but can't find it; leaving the mediocre ones on WWW, such as archive.org, as the only ones. He asked me whether I could digitize VHS; I assured him that I would improve my capability for such, or have it done commercially. "Hyperland" is NOT available commercially in any format. Last year, I created an .SRT file for it! It is now FINALLY possible to watch "Hyperland" with captions/subtitles! I needed a lot of help from a friend with good hearing, but we got it done! (copies available on request) (caption .SRT files consist of an arbitrary sequence number (like last columns on a punch-card), a start and stop time, and lines of text. When actually used as NTSC closed captions, the text is transmitted as two bytes at a time in line 21 of the verticsl retrace interval) I use ANYDVD and Handbrake to transcode MY DVDs to MP4, always with captions/subtitles. So far, all of mine fit [now barely] on a 7mm SATA 2TB drive out of a Seagate "Backup Plus Slim", which fits into Seagate GoFlex-TV. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Oct 23 17:09:42 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 22:09:42 +0000 Subject: Aphorism (Was: Computers that never crash (Was: Microsoft-Paul Allen) In-Reply-To: References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <20181022221605.1762E2757C@mx1.ezwind.net> <5BCE7988.4050409@pico-systems.com> <5BCF42CF.7030704@pico-systems.com> <2BAE238D-B365-4061-B254-C84F712EF4A3@snowmoose.com> , Message-ID: I had an Ultra Sparc machine that ran continuously for more than 5 years except for maybe 2 power outages and a couple time to vacuum it out. The only failure was one day the disk drive let out a stream of smoke. It was a tantalum capacitor. It burned the board. IT was going to give me a new drive. I said, " No Way". I had a lot of data on that disk. I asked for one of their failing disk, unsoldered the matching capacitor, scraped the carbonized PC board of and soldered the replacement capacitor in. It ran until I was force to give up the machine when we moved buildings. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 11:01:42 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Aphorism (Was: Computers that never crash (Was: Microsoft-Paul Allen) On Tue, 23 Oct 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > "If it doesn't crash, you're not running a sufficiently varied and > demanding workload." Are rights available for wall plaques, T-shirts, and bumper stickers? From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 23 17:12:59 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 15:12:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hyperland and Doctor Who (Was: 70's computers In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > Later, in 2017, it [Shada] was reconstructed again, using animation for > the missing > scenes. That was released on DVD in UK almost a year ago. > The USA release was delayed until last month, and played once on BBC America. > Amazon.uk has had it available on DVD for a year; amazon.com (USA) should > have it about now. Is that still "70's"? Correction: the USA release of Shada (with animated reconstruction) has been further delayed. AGAIN. to November 6. But, Amazon.co.uk has it available: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Doctor-Shada-Blu-ray-Region-Free/dp/B0767QDRBJ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1540332477&sr=8-1&keywords=shada The 1992/2013 narration reconstruction is available from amazon.com. From tingox at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 17:29:56 2018 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 00:29:56 +0200 Subject: Desktop Metaphor In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 10:16 PM Richard Loken via cctalk wrote: > > I am replying to this email on a FreeBSD 10.3 box and Motif. I don't > know what FreeBSD runs out of the box because I immediately delete it > and install Motif. FreeBSD doesn't run *any* graphical user interface out of the box. What you end up with after install of the FreeBSD OS is a console with a login prompt. As any _real_ operating system should be, IMNSHO. After you have logged in, you can (of course) install Xorg and your selection of desktop environments (or a wm + extras if you prefer that) via the package system (or ports, if you prefer to wait for compiling from source). > FreeBSD may not have the installed base of Linux but it has a its fans. Yes, this workstation runs FreeBSD 10.4 and Xfce. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From jim.manley at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 17:30:23 2018 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 16:30:23 -0600 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <855B45E8-51C2-480E-B89A-5D33E683CBDE@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 12:55 PM Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 3:59 PM Guy Sotomayor Jr > wrote: > >> An (optional) X server (and clients) can be added to the OS (I use them >> all the time) but is not part of the base install ... >> > > Apple has been using self-customized, optimized-for their-hardware > supersets of the VNC protocol (which is X based) for Screen Sharing since > early versions of OS X, if not from the beginning, and It's (still) In > There (per Prego spaghetti sauce ads) in the latest versions of OS X. > > That?s distinct from the X server and apps that are available as a > separate download (and I believe that now they point to Xorg). > No, it's not. You don't need any third-party X components to use Screen Sharing, and it works across all platforms, in both directions, that have a VNC-compatible client and/or server (depending on which direction you're looking from, remotely). I could show you in the source, but, then I'd have to kill you, if Apple didn't get to both of us first. There's what's in the public docs and especially marketing (including technical) material, and then there's what's actually In There. It's the sort of stuff marked with "COMPANY PROPRIETARY" watermarks that, if you try to scan or run it through a photocopier, produces black output due to opto-molecular chemical overlays. > BTW, the X server on OS X, interfaces not to the bit-map but instead to the >> native OS X display rendering framework. >> > > That's not possible, at least when communicating cross-platform, where > bitmaps are the only representation. > > *sigh* > Believe me, after developing graphics hardware and software for the past 46 years, I'm starting to think Apple would have the right idea with you, as noted above. My first graphics "workstation" was a Tektronix 4014 vector-based display hooked up to a PDP-11/70 (the high-voltage green flashes that cleared the capacitive display "memory" probably explain the lack of kids ... as far as I know!). My second (actual) workstation was an Evans & Sutherland (yes, Dave and Ivan) Picture System 1 (PS/1), which was dual-port mind-melded to one MB of static RAM in a box 3 x 3 x 3 feet, that cost a million bucks all by itself. The other RAM port connected to the Mass Bus on yet-another PDP-11/70 that connected to a network from which my user account files were accessible, from which 3-D vertex-and-edge model coordinates were loaded into the mega-RAM. The PS-1 then sucked in the coordinates and performed translation, scaling, and rotation in custom 3-D optimized floating-point hardware. However, it could only display wireframes in real time on a very short-persistence 23-inch diagonal, absolutely flat CRT (that cost somewhere in the six-figure range). It was a completely vector-based display in any two colors you wanted, as long as it was white strokes on a black background. There was no frame rate, as there were no frames - it just kept drawing line segments as commanded all day and night (which is what it took to get things working as intended, not as stated to the machine!). My third and fourth graphics workstations were a pair of $50,000 (each) SGI 2400s, delivering a whopping 30,000 Gouraud-shaded polygons/second. My $5.00 Raspberry Pi Zeroes can each deliver 40,000,000 Gouraud-shaded polygons/second ... in 1040p60. Where, oh where, did I park that pesky time machine, so I could take what's in my pocket now and buy the entire federal government from three-to-four decades ago??? There are a few more decades of those sorts of things on my ledger. Let's just say that "There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." As far as OS X is concerned, X is just another OS X application that wants > to render to the screen. I use it all the time and it works well along > side the normal OS X applications which wouldn?t be possible if the X > server wrote directly to the HW. > That's the case for your add-on X components - that's not how it can be done under the covers, but you apparently don't have access to that level. Screen Sharing isn't the only function that has this sort of capability, as also do 3-D graphics and video - they aren't constrained to the low-speed 2-D world for which Display Postscript/PDF, Quartz, etc., were developed. Performance is everything in these technologies, and they have their own APIs through which the hardware is accessed (the GPU), because going through the gobbledy-gook stack that's fine for documents and other high-drag data structures is a non-starter for them. All the Best, Jim From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 23 18:04:23 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 16:04:23 -0700 Subject: Desktop Metaphor In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: On 10/23/18 3:29 PM, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk wrote: >> FreeBSD may not have the installed base of Linux but it has a its fans. > > Yes, this workstation runs FreeBSD 10.4 and Xfce. I prefer OpenBSD myself for mission-critical stuff--the nearly paranoid attitude to new software is unusual to say the least. Even old packages that have had demonstrated security issues are omitted. You want to use telnet? Good, find a version somewhere and convert and compile it yourself--we're not even going to give you a telnet client, much less a host. Was VirtualBox or QEMU ever offered as a standard package on OpenBSD? I don't think so... --Chuck From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Oct 23 18:08:56 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 19:08:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 70's computers Message-ID: <20181023230856.1047318C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ben Bfranchuk > I just can't find a clean simple design yet. ... > The PDP 11 is nice machine, but I am looking for simpler designs > where 16K words is a valid memory size for a OS and small single user > software. There was a recent discussion about code density (I forget whether here, or on TUHS), and someone mentioned this paper: http://web.eece.maine.edu/~vweaver/papers/iccd09/iccd09_density.pdf which shows that for a combo of benchmarks, the PDP-11 had the densest code out of all the ones they looked at. (They didn't look at the PDP-8, but I suspect that since it's a single-address design, it's almost ceertainly not as dense.) The PDP-11 dates back to the days of core (it went through several generations before DRAM arrived - e.g. the -11/70 originally shipped with core), and given core prices, minimizing code size was pretty important - hence the results above. So if you want to get the most bang out of 16K buck... Not the simplest machine to implement, mind - the -8 is a lot simpler. Which axis is the most important to you? Noel From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Oct 23 18:20:52 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 16:20:52 -0700 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <855B45E8-51C2-480E-B89A-5D33E683CBDE@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > On Oct 23, 2018, at 3:30 PM, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 12:55 PM Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > >> On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 3:59 PM Guy Sotomayor Jr >> wrote: >> >>> An (optional) X server (and clients) can be added to the OS (I use them >>> all the time) but is not part of the base install ... >>> >> >> Apple has been using self-customized, optimized-for their-hardware >> supersets of the VNC protocol (which is X based) for Screen Sharing since >> early versions of OS X, if not from the beginning, and It's (still) In >> There (per Prego spaghetti sauce ads) in the latest versions of OS X. >> >> That?s distinct from the X server and apps that are available as a >> separate download (and I believe that now they point to Xorg). >> > > No, it's not. You don't need any third-party X components to use Screen > Sharing, and it works across all platforms, in both directions, that have a > VNC-compatible client and/or server (depending on which direction you're > looking from, remotely). I could show you in the source, but, then I'd > have to kill you, if Apple didn't get to both of us first. There's what's > in the public docs and especially marketing (including technical) material, > and then there's what's actually In There. It's the sort of stuff marked > with "COMPANY PROPRIETARY" watermarks that, if you try to scan or run it > through a photocopier, produces black output due to opto-molecular chemical > overlays. You?re not listening. I said that X and Screen Sharing are separate. I use both all the time. X on OS X is *not* in any way shape or form using anything from Screen Sharing and is currently sourced from Xorg. You are also forgetting, that as an ex-Apple employee (working in the kernel) I did get to see a lot of the source base. > > >> BTW, the X server on OS X, interfaces not to the bit-map but instead to the >>> native OS X display rendering framework. >>> >> >> That's not possible, at least when communicating cross-platform, where >> bitmaps are the only representation. >> >> *sigh* >> > > > > As far as OS X is concerned, X is just another OS X application that wants >> to render to the screen. I use it all the time and it works well along >> side the normal OS X applications which wouldn?t be possible if the X >> server wrote directly to the HW. >> > > That's the case for your add-on X components - that's not how it can be > done under the covers, but you apparently don't have access to that level. > Screen Sharing isn't the only function that has this sort of capability, as > also do 3-D graphics and video - they aren't constrained to the low-speed > 2-D world for which Display Postscript/PDF, Quartz, etc., were developed. > Performance is everything in these technologies, and they have their own > APIs through which the hardware is accessed (the GPU), because going > through the gobbledy-gook stack that's fine for documents and other > high-drag data structures is a non-starter for them. What I?m saying is that the X components render using the native OS X rendering capabilities and does not access the HW directly. Go look in the Xorg sources. TTFN - Guy From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Oct 23 18:26:42 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 16:26:42 -0700 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <20181023230856.1047318C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181023230856.1047318C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Oct 23, 2018, at 4:08 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Ben Bfranchuk > >> I just can't find a clean simple design yet. ... >> The PDP 11 is nice machine, but I am looking for simpler designs >> where 16K words is a valid memory size for a OS and small single user >> software. > > There was a recent discussion about code density (I forget whether here, or > on TUHS), and someone mentioned this paper: > > http://web.eece.maine.edu/~vweaver/papers/iccd09/iccd09_density.pdf > > which shows that for a combo of benchmarks, the PDP-11 had the densest code > out of all the ones they looked at. (They didn't look at the PDP-8, but I > suspect that since it's a single-address design, it's almost ceertainly not > as dense.) > > The PDP-11 dates back to the days of core (it went through several generations > before DRAM arrived - e.g. the -11/70 originally shipped with core), and given > core prices, minimizing code size was pretty important - hence the results > above. > > So if you want to get the most bang out of 16K buck... > > Not the simplest machine to implement, mind - the -8 is a lot simpler. Which > axis is the most important to you? For simplicity and reasonable density, you might want to look at J1 (which is a Forth CPU). It has been implemented in 300 lines of Verilog and the entire CPU + 16KB of memory fits in a reasonably sized Spartan 3E FPGA (and you have space for all of the other ?cool? stuff). Admittedly, you get to write in Forth which may be a minus for some folks. ;-) I did write a simulator for it (in Forth of course!) but I?m in the process of redoing it in C so that I can have multiple threads of execution (for the various devices I want to emulate). For me it was important because I?m using this as the controller in an FPGA so I wanted to have a better debug environment for developing the code. ;-) TTFN - Guy From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Oct 23 18:46:05 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 19:46:05 -0400 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: References: <20181023230856.1047318C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Oct 23, 2018, at 7:26 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: > > ... > > For simplicity and reasonable density, you might want to look at J1 (which is > a Forth CPU). It has been implemented in 300 lines of Verilog and the entire > CPU + 16KB of memory fits in a reasonably sized Spartan 3E FPGA (and you > have space for all of the other ?cool? stuff). > > Admittedly, you get to write in Forth which may be a minus for some folks. ;-) > > I did write a simulator for it (in Forth of course!) but I?m in the process of redoing > it in C so that I can have multiple threads of execution (for the various devices I > want to emulate). For me it was important because I?m using this as the controller > in an FPGA so I wanted to have a better debug environment for developing the > code. ;-) I like Forth, I've used it for quite large programs though not recently. There are versions that support multi-threading. Since it's a stack language, that's pretty easy to do. paul From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Tue Oct 23 18:47:36 2018 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 16:47:36 -0700 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <855B45E8-51C2-480E-B89A-5D33E683CBDE@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <7E43715C-DD0C-4938-8514-B06B1F49EED0@eschatologist.net> On Oct 23, 2018, at 11:12 AM, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 3:59 PM Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > >> An (optional) X server (and clients) can be added to the OS (I use them >> all the time) but >> is not part of the base install ... >> > > Wrong. Apple has been using self-customized, optimized-for their-hardware > supersets of the VNC protocol (which is X based) for Screen Sharing since > early versions of OS X, if not from the beginning, and It's (still) In > There (per Prego spaghetti sauce ads) in the latest versions of OS X. VNC is not X11, and not very related to the X11 protocol at all. I say this as someone who has hacked together a partial implementation of VNC in Common Lisp. Furthermore, what?s used for Screen Sharing has almost no relationship to the technology used for native UI. macOS (and OS X, and Mac OS X, and OPENSTEP/Mach, and NEXTSTEP in its various spellings) do not and never have used X11 as their primary display system. Prior to Mac OS X 10.0, the operating system used Display PostScript, where the Display PostScript interpreter was colocated with the window server that managed presentation on behalf of applications and routed events to them. As of Mac OS X 10.0, the window server just provides drawing surfaces and event routing, and drawing happens on the application side via a variety of 2D and 3D APIs. >> BTW, the X server on OS X, interfaces not to the bit-map but instead to the >> native OS X display rendering framework. > > That's not possible, at least when communicating cross-platform, where > bitmaps are the only representation. It?s entirely possible to implement an X server atop some other display technology. There are X servers for Windows. There were X servers for classic Mac OS. There were X servers for Lisp Machines. The X server for macOS, XQuartz, is just an application that applications can talk to using the X11 protocol. Please be more conscientious in your claims. -- Chris From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Oct 23 18:53:33 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 19:53:33 -0400 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <20181023230856.1047318C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181023230856.1047318C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Oct 23, 2018, at 7:08 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Ben Bfranchuk > >> I just can't find a clean simple design yet. ... >> The PDP 11 is nice machine, but I am looking for simpler designs >> where 16K words is a valid memory size for a OS and small single user >> software. > > There was a recent discussion about code density (I forget whether here, or > on TUHS), and someone mentioned this paper: > > http://web.eece.maine.edu/~vweaver/papers/iccd09/iccd09_density.pdf > > which shows that for a combo of benchmarks, the PDP-11 had the densest code > out of all the ones they looked at. (They didn't look at the PDP-8, but I > suspect that since it's a single-address design, it's almost ceertainly not > as dense.) Interesting. There are lots of single address machines; it isn't all that obvious they would be less effective. It also depends on other instruction set features. Some years ago I learned the architecture of the Dutch Electrologica X1 and X8 machines. They are single address, with multiple registers (not many though). But they gain a lot of efficiency by allowing almost all instructions to optionally set a condition flag, and almost all instructions to be executed conditionally on that flag. So a lot of code full of branches becomes much shorter. The fact that the condition flag setting itself is a choice (unlike the setting of condition codes) helps a lot. For example: if (x >= 0) { foo (); x += 2; } else x -= 3; translates to just 5 instructions: a=x,p y,sub(foo) y,a+2 n,a-3 x=a since the condition flag is (normally, though it's a choice) preserved by function call/return. Pretty efficient. paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Oct 23 18:57:50 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 19:57:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 70's computers Message-ID: <20181023235750.2666418C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> PS: > Not the simplest machine to implement, mind - the -8 is a lot > simpler. As a rough measure of how much more complex, the -8/E and -11/20 are roughly contemporaneous, and built out of the same technology (SSI TTL on larger boards): the -8/E CPU is 5 quad boards, and the -11/20 CPU is 9 quad board (equivalents - some are duals, etc). Noel From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 23 19:03:51 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 18:03:51 -0600 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: References: <20181023230856.1047318C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 10/23/2018 5:26 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Oct 23, 2018, at 4:08 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> >>> From: Ben Bfranchuk >> >>> I just can't find a clean simple design yet. ... >>> The PDP 11 is nice machine, but I am looking for simpler designs >>> where 16K words is a valid memory size for a OS and small single user >>> software. >> >> There was a recent discussion about code density (I forget whether here, or >> on TUHS), and someone mentioned this paper: >> >> http://web.eece.maine.edu/~vweaver/papers/iccd09/iccd09_density.pdf >> I took a peek at PDF, before supper. "Benchmark in C" That implies byte addressing, so that is not good test for older machines with word adressing only. >> which shows that for a combo of benchmarks, the PDP-11 had the densest code >> out of all the ones they looked at. (They didn't look at the PDP-8, but I >> suspect that since it's a single-address design, it's almost ceertainly not >> as dense.) >> >> The PDP-11 dates back to the days of core (it went through several generations >> before DRAM arrived - e.g. the -11/70 originally shipped with core), and given >> core prices, minimizing code size was pretty important - hence the results >> above. >> >> So if you want to get the most bang out of 16K buck... Get rid of byte adressing. OK 64K of bytes or 32K words is much the same, but we all know in hindsight 64KB is just too small for may applications. >> >> Not the simplest machine to implement, mind - the -8 is a lot simpler. Which >> axis is the most important to you? > > For simplicity and reasonable density, you might want to look at J1 (which is > a Forth CPU). It has been implemented in 300 lines of Verilog and the entire > CPU + 16KB of memory fits in a reasonably sized Spartan 3E FPGA (and you > have space for all of the other ?cool? stuff). > > Admittedly, you get to write in Forth which may be a minus for some folks. ;-) > > I did write a simulator for it (in Forth of course!) but I?m in the process of redoing > it in C so that I can have multiple threads of execution (for the various devices I > want to emulate). For me it was important because I?m using this as the controller > in an FPGA so I wanted to have a better debug environment for developing the > code. ;-) I use ALTERA FPGA products so I code in ADHL or use TTL macros. It is not that I understand VERLOG or VHDL, but they are so VERBOSE that I don't know just is being defined or compiled. The FPGA is emulating TTL or 22V10 PAL logic so that I can get a design tested before I start laying out PCB's. > TTFN - Guy > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 23 19:18:02 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 17:18:02 -0700 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: References: <20181023230856.1047318C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <885e9562-0a95-69eb-6d73-4c4bcda99cbf@sydex.com> Dunno. I'd say that the CDC 6000 seies machines had pretty good code density, and of course, ran like the wind. Instructions are 15 or 30 bits and no condition codes to preserve. Most are 3-address. And a very simple instruction set. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 23 19:31:15 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 18:31:15 -0600 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <20181023235750.2666418C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181023235750.2666418C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <1456673e-0e3e-3145-e5fe-5daaf83aa931@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/23/2018 5:57 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > PS: > > > Not the simplest machine to implement, mind - the -8 is a lot > > simpler. > > As a rough measure of how much more complex, the -8/E and -11/20 are roughly > contemporaneous, and built out of the same technology (SSI TTL on larger > boards): the -8/E CPU is 5 quad boards, and the -11/20 CPU is 9 quad board > (equivalents - some are duals, etc). > > Noel I plan to design with MSI TTL but use 74LSXXX and a few CMOS 22v10's for the hardware build. The 22V10's are programed as simple roms. The layout for a 18 bit data path, 1 20 alu card with 2 fill bits or 2 12 bit cards with 3 fill bits per card. If I use PAL logic I suspect I can put the whole cpu on large card, but I need a simple instuction set. For now it trial and error to see what fits best, but 16 bit CPU extended to 18 bit data path looks to be most compact. 18..16.. 8.. . [00][*OP*][AC][IX][index or #] *op* OP code or jmp condition. AC JMP,A,X,S IX #,Z+index,X+index,S+index Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 23 19:34:40 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 18:34:40 -0600 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <885e9562-0a95-69eb-6d73-4c4bcda99cbf@sydex.com> References: <20181023230856.1047318C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <885e9562-0a95-69eb-6d73-4c4bcda99cbf@sydex.com> Message-ID: <7675a2c6-bb17-5ecd-7f1c-c0d115925dd8@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/23/2018 6:18 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Dunno. I'd say that the CDC 6000 seies machines had pretty good code > density, and of course, ran like the wind. > > Instructions are 15 or 30 bits and no condition codes to preserve. Most > are 3-address. > > And a very simple instruction set. > > --Chuck With NO GUI and hidden IO, you get speed. Ben. From jecel at merlintec.com Tue Oct 23 19:58:29 2018 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 21:58:29 -0300 Subject: Smalltalk (was: Desktop Metaphor) In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <4D5E0A4E-381D-413D-BD9D-B64D37A9FF4A@rogers.com> Message-ID: <20181024005832.DC9FFEE02AE@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Josh Dersch wrote on Tue, 23 Oct 2018 07:25:41 -0700 > I've never seen evidence for any Smalltalk having a desktop metaphor (as in > the discussion at hand -- icons and folders representing files and/or data, > not merely windows, etc.). It's certainly possible that the platform was > used for experimentation with such within PARC or elsewhere, but no > smalltalk images I've seen contain anything like that. Is your thesis > available to read anywhere? One complication is that the meaning of terms change over time. I am typing this in Smalltalk (Celeste email app in Squeak 4.1) and it doesn't use icons. Smalltalk-72 had a read-eval-print interface but many applications written in it experimented with different GUI ideas. There were tests for the overlapping windows that Alan Kay described as "like papers on a messy desktop". This got filtered into "Smalltalk had a desktop metaphor" but that is confusing since by the time Star came out the term meant something that was a step in the direction of Microsoft Bob or Magic Cap. Some Smalltalk applications used icons in the sense of the MacPaint tool bar. In fact, the term "icon" was invented by David C. Smith for his 1975 thesis: http://worrydream.com/refs/Smith%20-%20Pygmalion.pdf This had icons, though these were used in an environment more like Scratch than a desktop (it didn't have windows, for example, and the icons were related to the various application domains rather than operating system functions). But given the role David played in the development of the Star, I would call this a part of the future desktop metaphor. Smalltalk-76 got overlapping windows and popup menus as part of its basic system and the command line got replaced with a select text and execute or print scheme, later used in Oberon as well.The windows had title tabs (like later used in BeOS) and they could be collapsed to just the tab or expanded into the full window. Not quite icons on a desktop, but not too different either. I don't know if Smalltalk-76 had multiple projects (desktops) but -78 certainly had them. When seen from another project they were a small window with a tiny view of the project and any windows it had. Those looked a lot like icons, though they were literal representations and not symbolic ones. See figure 11 in: https://freudenbergs.de/bert/publications/Ingalls-2014-Smalltalk78.pdf By the way, in the posts about the improvements from PARC to Apple there was no mention of drag-n-drop, which to me was the most important difference in practice. My conclusion: Smalltalk didn't (and still doesn't) have a desktop metaphor but was a key element in its creation. -- Jecel From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 23 20:00:16 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 18:00:16 -0700 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <7675a2c6-bb17-5ecd-7f1c-c0d115925dd8@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20181023230856.1047318C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <885e9562-0a95-69eb-6d73-4c4bcda99cbf@sydex.com> <7675a2c6-bb17-5ecd-7f1c-c0d115925dd8@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 10/23/18 5:34 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > With NO GUI and hidden IO, you get speed. I understand what GUI is, but what's "hidden IO"? --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 23 20:10:49 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 19:10:49 -0600 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: References: <20181023230856.1047318C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <885e9562-0a95-69eb-6d73-4c4bcda99cbf@sydex.com> <7675a2c6-bb17-5ecd-7f1c-c0d115925dd8@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 10/23/2018 7:00 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 10/23/18 5:34 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > >> With NO GUI and hidden IO, you get speed. > > I understand what GUI is, but what's "hidden IO"? > > --Chuck The 10 or so PPU units. Ben. From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Oct 23 20:11:11 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 21:11:11 -0400 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <20181023235750.2666418C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181023235750.2666418C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <166a3a01ee9-1ec8-799c@webjas-vaa085.srv.aolmail.net> both will run focal... but I need focal 11 on paper tape I have asked several people but have not heard if it is even available? Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: PS: > Not the simplest machine to implement, mind - the -8 is a lot > simpler. As a rough measure of how much more complex, the -8/E and -11/20 are roughly contemporaneous, and built out of the same technology (SSI TTL on larger boards): the -8/E CPU is 5 quad boards, and the -11/20 CPU is 9 quad board (equivalents - some are duals, etc). Noel From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Oct 23 20:18:23 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 21:18:23 -0400 Subject: Catalog of Braegen Compter systems FOUND! Anaheim CA. lsi 11 systems and unibuss add in stuff too printer and rape and disc subsystems... Message-ID: <166a3a6b648-1ec3-45dc@webjas-vaa149.srv.aolmail.net> Catalog of Braegen Compter systems FOUND! Anaheim CA. lsi 11 systems and unibuss add in stuff too printer and tape and disc subsystems... ANY ONE HAVE THE HARDWARE IN CAPTIVITY?.. the cdc discs look like that bold one someone posted from Craigs list the other day... ed# www.smecc.org Sent from AOL Mobile Mail From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 23 20:29:57 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 18:29:57 -0700 Subject: printer and rape and disc subsystems... In-Reply-To: <166a3a6b648-1ec3-45dc@webjas-vaa149.srv.aolmail.net> References: <166a3a6b648-1ec3-45dc@webjas-vaa149.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <78f9d47b-4719-d1b8-6302-a852017579e7@bitsavers.org> someone needs to turn auto-correct off From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 23 20:47:08 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 18:47:08 -0700 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: References: <20181023230856.1047318C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <885e9562-0a95-69eb-6d73-4c4bcda99cbf@sydex.com> <7675a2c6-bb17-5ecd-7f1c-c0d115925dd8@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <42c33b50-88a5-908c-d716-0c6a2941578b@sydex.com> On 10/23/18 6:10 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > The 10 or so PPU units. > Ben. Early SCOPE and COS also put the operating system in those, leaving the CPU for real work. But for I/O, not that much different from IBM "channels", no? --Chuck From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Oct 23 20:55:06 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 21:55:06 -0400 Subject: printer and rape and disc subsystems... In-Reply-To: <78f9d47b-4719-d1b8-6302-a852017579e7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <166a3c8521e-1ec5-1a4@webjas-vac209.srv.aolmail.net> omg... opps In a message dated 10/23/2018 6:30:06 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? someone needs to turn auto-correct off From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Oct 23 20:56:47 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 20:56:47 -0500 Subject: Aphorism (Was: Computers that never crash (Was: Microsoft-Paul Allen) In-Reply-To: References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <20181022221605.1762E2757C@mx1.ezwind.net> <5BCE7988.4050409@pico-systems.com> <5BCF42CF.7030704@pico-systems.com> <2BAE238D-B365-4061-B254-C84F712EF4A3@snowmoose.com> , Message-ID: <5BCFD15F.6000503@pico-systems.com> On 10/23/2018 05:09 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > I had an Ultra Sparc machine that ran continuously for more than 5 years except for maybe 2 power outages and a couple time to vacuum it out. Oh, well, I had a homemade UVax-II system built out of grey market and 3rd party boards. I ran it for 21 years until the last in a succession of many hard drives finally gave up the ghost. I ran it from 1986 to 2007, basically 24/7 except for power failures and occasional maintenance. Jon From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Oct 23 20:58:10 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 21:58:10 -0400 Subject: Catalog of Braegen Compter systems FOUND! Anaheim CA. lsi 11 systems and unibuss add in stuff too printer and tape and disc subsystems... Message-ID: <166a3cb2287-1ec2-7bc6@webjas-vaa156.srv.aolmail.net> resent? with corrected subj. message Catalog of Braegen? Compter systems FOUND! Anaheim CA. lsi 11 systems and unibuss add in stuff too printer and tape and disc subsystems... ANY ONE HAVE THE HARDWARE IN CAPTIVITY?.. the cdc discs look like that bold one someone posted from Craigs list the other day...? ed#?www.smecc.org Sent from AOL Mobile Mail From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 22:06:26 2018 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 23:06:26 -0400 Subject: Catalog of Braegen Compter systems FOUND! Anaheim CA. lsi 11 systems and unibuss add in stuff too printer and tape and disc subsystems... In-Reply-To: <166a3cb2287-1ec2-7bc6@webjas-vaa156.srv.aolmail.net> References: <166a3cb2287-1ec2-7bc6@webjas-vaa156.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: Hi Ed, I talked to that craigslist guy in DC. He's saving the cdc drive for me (others welcome, too - just trying to keep it from the skip). Are you saying you've found disk cartridges to fit it? And is this an announcement of a huge haul you've come across in Anaheim (I'll be in sfbay in a couple weeks and miiight be able to drive down to help muscle stuff if you need help), or are you literally talking about a paper catalog? thx jake On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 9:58 PM ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > resent with corrected subj. message > Catalog of Braegen Compter systems FOUND! Anaheim CA. lsi 11 systems and > unibuss add in stuff too printer and tape and disc subsystems... ANY ONE > HAVE THE HARDWARE IN CAPTIVITY?.. the cdc discs look like that bold one > someone posted from Craigs list the other day... ed# www.smecc.org > Sent from AOL Mobile Mail > From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Oct 23 23:39:34 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 00:39:34 -0400 Subject: Catalog of Braegen Compter systems FOUND! Anaheim CA. lsi 11 systems and unibuss add in stuff too printer and tape and disc subsystems... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <166a45ee0f7-1ec4-c74@webjas-vad190.srv.aolmail.net> just a catalog!!!! sorry? to? disappoint ? ? ? ed# ? In a message dated 10/23/2018 8:06:40 PM US Mountain Standard Time, jacob.ritorto at gmail.com writes: ? Hi Ed, ? I talked to that craigslist guy in DC.? He's saving the cdc drive for me (others welcome, too - just trying to keep it from the skip).?? Are you saying you've found disk cartridges to fit it?? And is this an announcement of a huge haul you've come across in Anaheim (I'll be in sfbay in a couple weeks and miiight be able to drive down to help muscle stuff if you need help), or are you literally talking about a paper catalog? ? thx jake On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 9:58 PM ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: resent? with corrected subj. message Catalog of Braegen? Compter systems FOUND! Anaheim CA. lsi 11 systems and unibuss add in stuff too printer and tape and disc subsystems... ANY ONE HAVE THE HARDWARE IN CAPTIVITY?.. the cdc discs look like that bold one someone posted from Craigs list the other day...? ed#?www.smecc.org Sent from AOL Mobile Mail From gordon+cctalk at drogon.net Tue Oct 23 16:32:10 2018 From: gordon+cctalk at drogon.net (Gordon Henderson) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 22:32:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Oct 2018, ben via cctalk wrote: > The PDP 11 is nice machine, but I am looking for simpler designs > where 16K words is a valid memory size for a OS and small single user > software. Try the Modular One with an OS written in BCPL. https://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/files/3230/PRG08.pdf Although that paper suggest 32K of core. -Gordon From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 24 00:29:21 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 23:29:21 -0600 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <68788f8c-ff37-5cad-5714-72d5e384b272@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/23/2018 3:32 PM, Gordon Henderson via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 23 Oct 2018, ben via cctalk wrote: > >> The PDP 11 is nice machine, but I am looking? for simpler designs >> where 16K words is a valid memory size for a OS and small single user >> software. > > Try the Modular One with an OS written in BCPL. > > https://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/files/3230/PRG08.pdf > > Although that paper suggest 32K of core. > > -Gordon > A quick search shows NO DOCUMENTS online. Another LOST sytem from the 70's.Ben. From evanlinwood at hotmail.com Wed Oct 24 03:08:11 2018 From: evanlinwood at hotmail.com (Evan Linwood) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 08:08:11 +0000 Subject: Not really vintage computing, but just in case it's of interest to anyone.. Message-ID: taken from the listing : "It was used ( I Believe ) to process Geophysical Seismic Data during the exploration of Oil in Bass Straight. The circuitry is all NASA standard." https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/gosford/other-electronics-computers/vintage-computer-tape-drive/1194865314 From gordon+cctalk at drogon.net Wed Oct 24 03:54:31 2018 From: gordon+cctalk at drogon.net (Gordon Henderson) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 09:54:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <68788f8c-ff37-5cad-5714-72d5e384b272@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> <68788f8c-ff37-5cad-5714-72d5e384b272@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Oct 2018, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 10/23/2018 3:32 PM, Gordon Henderson via cctalk wrote: >> On Tue, 23 Oct 2018, ben via cctalk wrote: >> >>> The PDP 11 is nice machine, but I am looking? for simpler designs >>> where 16K words is a valid memory size for a OS and small single user >>> software. >> >> Try the Modular One with an OS written in BCPL. >> >> https://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/files/3230/PRG08.pdf >> >> Although that paper suggest 32K of core. >> > A quick search shows NO DOCUMENTS online. Another LOST sytem from the > 70's.Ben. There's a few bits & piece online, maybe not in the "usual" places though: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Technology_Limited http://www.redhawksys.com/index_files/Page627.htm Also worthwhile noting that Iann Baron (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iann_Barron ) went on to found inmos and create the transputer. I worked in Bristol for some time, starting with a company founded by some ex-inmos employees in the mid 80's building transputer base supercomputers - a CPU with a curious instruction set that (coincidentally?) might be a good fit for the BCPL CINTCODE system. I'm also sure that the transputer is very much influenced by the Modular One too. BCPL continues on to this day, now a 32 or 64 bit language running on all mainstream OSs and processors. -Gordon From lproven at gmail.com Wed Oct 24 04:45:31 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 11:45:31 +0200 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <1bba29ea-7dd5-c074-8df5-fb16ba2e94a2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 at 19:48, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > "The simplistic style is partly explained by the fact that its editors, > having to meet a publishing deadline, copied the information off the back > of a packet of breakfast cereal, hastily embroidering it with a few foot > notes in order to avoid prosecution under the incomprehensibly torturous > Galactic Copyright Laws. Its interesting to note that a later and wilier > editor sent the book backwards in time, through a temporal warp, and then > successfully sued the breakfast cereal company for infringement of the > same laws." -HHGTTG Speaking as a former president of the official Douglas Adams fanclub, I am deeply honoured by the comparison. :-D -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Wed Oct 24 04:47:53 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 11:47:53 +0200 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: <20d426e7-3471-727f-168e-73f7f320569c@snowmoose.com> References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <1bba29ea-7dd5-c074-8df5-fb16ba2e94a2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20d426e7-3471-727f-168e-73f7f320569c@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 at 20:01, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > Excuse me, but I work for Oracle on Solaris (primarily on USB code) and > it is not EOL. Oracle just released Solaris 11.4 and the next release is > being worked on. Oh! Well, I'm very glad to hear it. But the news has not spread -- cf. http://dtrace.org/blogs/bmc/2017/09/04/the-sudden-death-and-eternal-life-of-solaris/ https://www.networkworld.com/article/3160176/hardware/game-over-for-solaris-and-sparc.html https://www.networkworld.com/article/3222707/data-center/the-sun-sets-on-solaris-and-sparc.html https://siliconangle.com/2017/09/05/oracle-layoffs-signal-end-life-sparc-solaris-products/ https://www.itprotoday.com/software-development/new-oracle-layoffs-probably-signal-end-line-solaris -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From aperry at snowmoose.com Wed Oct 24 05:12:38 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 03:12:38 -0700 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <1bba29ea-7dd5-c074-8df5-fb16ba2e94a2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20d426e7-3471-727f-168e-73f7f320569c@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <3BEC25E0-9485-4C3D-B269-36BFE5E2D2FC@snowmoose.com> > On Oct 24, 2018, at 2:47 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > > On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 at 20:01, Alan Perry via cctalk > wrote: > >> Excuse me, but I work for Oracle on Solaris (primarily on USB code) and >> it is not EOL. Oracle just released Solaris 11.4 and the next release is >> being worked on. > > Oh! Well, I'm very glad to hear it. > > But the news has not spread -- cf. > > http://dtrace.org/blogs/bmc/2017/09/04/the-sudden-death-and-eternal-life-of-solaris/ > > https://www.networkworld.com/article/3160176/hardware/game-over-for-solaris-and-sparc.html > > https://www.networkworld.com/article/3222707/data-center/the-sun-sets-on-solaris-and-sparc.html > > https://siliconangle.com/2017/09/05/oracle-layoffs-signal-end-life-sparc-solaris-products/ > > https://www.itprotoday.com/software-development/new-oracle-layoffs-probably-signal-end-line-solaris Well, those were pretty much all written immediately after Oracle let go of most of the Solaris and SPARC orgs. It was brutal and I can imagine how it looked from the outside. But most isn?t all and it is more that a year later and we are still putting out Solaris releases. alan > > > -- > Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Wed Oct 24 05:47:31 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 12:47:31 +0200 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 at 20:09, John Ames wrote: > There's also the Afterstep/Window Maker crowd, open-source > reimplementations of the NEXTSTEP desktop environment, which predates > even Windows 3.x. That sort of echoes my point, really, I think. As I said, it's ludicrous to counter my claim that Win95 influenced basically _every_ desktop after it by pointing out that it didn't influence ones written before it. And to be more specific: * AfterStep -- last new release 2008; last minor update 2013. Effectively dead. * LiteStep -- not updated since some time around 2011-2014, if then. Effectively dead. * Window Maker -- alive, but just a WM, not a desktop. GNUstep is very much alive, with a tiny user community, but as I said, I am not aware of any distro bundling a complete current version even for you to custom-install yourself. Nothing offers it as an option in place of GNOME, KDE etc., or ever has, TTBOMK. I personally think that's criminal and tragic, but hey. > Win95 was certainly very influential in the design > and refinement of many other desktop environments going forward, but > it's not the be-all and end-all of anything. Definitely not claiming it is. In fact my thesis is the reverse: that we _need_ more variety but we aren't getting it, because to anyone under about 35, there are only 2 desktops: the "traditional" one, which means Win95-esque, and the "weird" Mac one. > But this is kind of a questionable standard to begin with, because the > whole point in the Freenix world is choice. No distributions offer > those as default options during the install process, but all of them > (aside from CDE, which only just went open-source a couple years ago > and is still in the process of being cleaned up and forward-ported to > modern *nixen) are available in the repositories for most major > distributions, and all of them are still actively updated. Please correct me if I am wrong. As I said, I am not aware of *any* current distro of any OS that offers even current packages of GNUstep *or* the complete ROX environment as a DIY option. Or CDE come to that, but I hope it comes back! > Kinda-sorta-not-really. BeOS (like just about everything post-1995) > takes cues from Win95, but its roots are in classic Mac OS and it > definitely hews closer to that in most respects, despite the absence > of a global menu bar. Reviewed it as of v4 and v5. Was a big fan. I have a full boxed copy of v5, a naughty copy of Zeta, and a machine running a recent Haiku nightly on bare metal (which I must update to Beta 1.) I am _very_ aware of BeOS. BeOS was my favourite x86 OS of all time. Drag the panel to the bottom of the screen, and then you can see how Tracker is a Win95 clone. The default part-length top-right position conceals this, but it is all the same. > Haiku says hi. Or would, if they could spare the time from trying to > awkwardly kludge Linux development models into a BeOS world. I must admit I am surprised at how "Linuxy" Haiku feels now, but that does mean it has a healthier software base through the Depot than BeOS itself ever had. > This "aside from the things that don't match up with my argument, my > argument is flawless!" line of reasoning is novel. :-D I laid out my case 5-6y ago in the article I linked: https://www.theregister.co.uk/Print/2013/06/03/thank_microsoft_for_linux_desktop_fail/ (single-page print view) In a way I think it's a microcosm of the general OS world. In the late '70s and early '80s there were lots of incompatible micros. By the mid '80s, and for about a decade, this started to settle down into 3 broad camps -- well, 2 and an outlier. [1] Conservative x86-based machines, conforming to the IBM compatibility standard (but several OSes & UIs) [2] more experimental Motorola 680x0 machines (Mac, ST, Amiga) [3] and Acorn, doing its own thing. By the mid-'90s, finally, the Wintel camp caught up with the Mac camp, and the non-Mac 68k machines died off. Acorn gave up soon after and then it was a 2-horse race: IBM-compatibles versus Macs. Apple had undergone a schism, Jobs went off, founded NeXT, made a futuristic Unix that discarded a lot of traditional stuff like X.11, C/C++, config in text files, etc. Then it merged back in, all the MacOS/Copland/Pink/Taligent stuff was tossed out, and a few years later, Apple is an x86-based UNIX vendor. Apple has resisted the PC trends for a long long time. It ploughs its own furrow, always has. Linux has thrived because it _embraced_ them. Unlike the BSDs, it uses Windows-style disk partitioning, it embraces Windows file formats, talks happily over the network to Windows boxes (using client software configured with Windows-INI-format config files), runs Windows apps with some reasonable competence. It's always been the minority player in the Windows world and it embraces that. BSD comes from a pre-PC, pre-DOS/Windows world and only reluctantly works with Windows-style hardware and software. So Linux has also absorbed Windows-style desktops, eschewing the older generation of non-Windows-influenced Linux desktops. Come to think of it, most Linux users I know are Windows converts. Very few are Mac converts -- once you go Mac, you can't go back, apparently. Old Unix hands praise BSD's "conceptual uniformity" and the way it "feels more integrated" in ways that are completely imperceptible to Linux folk. Since my formative IT experiences were outside of the Unix world -- CP/M, VAX/VMS, Acorn RISC OS and finally OS/2 -- I come from a different tradition and I'm still not really comfortable in Unixland. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Wed Oct 24 05:49:11 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 12:49:11 +0200 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <855B45E8-51C2-480E-B89A-5D33E683CBDE@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 at 20:12, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: > > Wrong. Apple has been using self-customized, optimized-for their-hardware > supersets of the VNC protocol (which is X based) Not true. VNC isn't X-based. And Apple supports it, sure, but as an accessory thing. VNC also works fine on Windows, and there's no X.11 in Windows. Jim, you seem awfully convinced of this stuff, but as others are telling you, you have it almost all wrong. :-( -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Oct 24 05:50:30 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 06:50:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 70's computers Message-ID: <20181024105030.4D2BF18C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning > Some years ago I learned the architecture of the Dutch Electrologica X1 > and X8 machines. ... they gain a lot of efficiency by allowing almost > all instructions to optionally set a condition flag, and almost all > instructions to be executed conditionally on that flag. So a lot of > code full of branches becomes much shorter. ... For example: > > if (x >= 0) { foo (); x += 2; } > else x -= 3; > > translates to just 5 instructions: Very clever! What's the word length on that machine, BTW? I ask because it would be hard to pull that trick on most short-word-length machines, there just isn't a spare bit or two in the instruction to add that. Noel From lproven at gmail.com Wed Oct 24 05:52:05 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 12:52:05 +0200 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <855B45E8-51C2-480E-B89A-5D33E683CBDE@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Oct 2018 at 00:31, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: > It's the sort of stuff marked > with "COMPANY PROPRIETARY" watermarks that, if you try to scan or run it > through a photocopier, produces black output due to opto-molecular chemical > overlays. Oh dear. Let me guess -- do you also worry about chemtrails and fluoride in the water? -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Oct 24 07:36:39 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 08:36:39 -0400 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <42c33b50-88a5-908c-d716-0c6a2941578b@sydex.com> References: <20181023230856.1047318C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <885e9562-0a95-69eb-6d73-4c4bcda99cbf@sydex.com> <7675a2c6-bb17-5ecd-7f1c-c0d115925dd8@jetnet.ab.ca> <42c33b50-88a5-908c-d716-0c6a2941578b@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On Oct 23, 2018, at 9:47 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 10/23/18 6:10 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > >> The 10 or so PPU units. >> Ben. > > Early SCOPE and COS also put the operating system in those, leaving the > CPU for real work. But for I/O, not that much different from IBM > "channels", no? Very different. PPUs are real computers, vaguely like a PDP-8 in fact but quite fast. The PPUs have major roles in the OS throughout the 6000 series, not just in early versions. And not always just the OS. Consider PLATO, which in a sense is an application... with a set of PPU programs to help it. It would drive 1000 terminals (600 logged in concurrently) running highly interactive text and graphics applications including early multi-user games, on a pair of 6500 machines. Those are, on good days, roughly 1 MIPS per CPU. Feeding data to and from the 1000 terminal lines was the job of just a single PPU. IBM channels are (from the programmer point of view at least) merely hardwired controllers no different from a DEC UDA50 or for that matter a CDC 7054 disk controller. The fact that PPUs are general purpose computers means a smart programmer can make the I/O system do things the manufacturer did not believe possible. CDC used 2 to 1 sector interleave on its disk drives (844, which is like the DEC RP04) because the PPU could not keep up with sector data arriving at full speed. But Don Lee at University of Illinois made that work in the PLATO system by deploying a pair of PPUs controlling the disks together ("ping" and "pong"). That said, I think Ben is overestimating the impact of the PPUs on the overall system performance. A lot more comes from the CPU architecture. The instruction set, of course (arguably the first RISC). And especially the multiple functional unit highly overlapped design, with some very clever tricks in it. Consider that a 6000 would do a process context switch with a single instruction, in about 4 microseconds -- in 1964. Part of the reason that works is that it takes advantage of the properties of core memory in a way that few other machines do. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Oct 24 07:46:52 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 08:46:52 -0400 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <20181024105030.4D2BF18C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181024105030.4D2BF18C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Oct 24, 2018, at 6:50 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Paul Koning > > >> Some years ago I learned the architecture of the Dutch Electrologica X1 >> and X8 machines. ... they gain a lot of efficiency by allowing almost >> all instructions to optionally set a condition flag, and almost all >> instructions to be executed conditionally on that flag. So a lot of >> code full of branches becomes much shorter. ... For example: >> >> if (x >= 0) { foo (); x += 2; } >> else x -= 3; >> >> translates to just 5 instructions: > > Very clever! > > What's the word length on that machine, BTW? I ask because it would be hard > to pull that trick on most short-word-length machines, there just isn't a > spare bit or two in the instruction to add that. 27 bits, one's complement. The opcode layout is 6 bits for operation, 2 for addressing mode, 2 for controlling conditional execution, 2 for specifying whether/how to set the condition flag, and 15 bits for address or immediate operand. There's a short description in Wikipedia (both the EL-X1 and the EL-X8). The two share the same basic instruction set, the X8 adds float and has a different I/O system with a coprocessor (CHARON). The X1 has what may be history's strangest addressing mode ("C" mode). One handy thing you could do with this is have instructions that are both conditionally executed and condition-setting, which lets you do Boolean operations without explicit AND or OR instruction use. For example, if you wanted to know if X is zero and Y is >= 0, you could write: A=x, Z Y, A=y, P and end up with the condition flag set to "yes" if that composite condition is true. (If you needed OR rather than AND, the Y would simply become N in the second line.) For a pretty detailed description of the X1, see Dijkstra's Ph.D. thesis, which is online in the U. Texas EWD archive. The X1, incidentally, was as far as I can determine the first commercial computer with interrupts standard. (TX-0 did interrupts slightly earlier and IBM offered interrupts as an option at about the same time as the X1, I believe.) Also, X1 had what you might call a BIOS, in ROM. Core ROM, that is -- different from "core rope" and somewhat more efficient. paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Oct 24 08:01:16 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 09:01:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 70's computers Message-ID: <20181024130116.B11F718C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning > A lot more comes from the CPU architecture. The instruction set, of > course (arguably the first RISC). An observation about RISC: I've opined before that the CISC->RISC transition was driven, in part, by the changing balance of CPU speed versus memory speed: with slow memory and fast CPUs, it makes sense to get as much execution bang out of every fetch buck (so complex instructions); but when memory bandwidth goes up, one needs a fast CPU to use it all (so simple instructions). It occurs to be that the same balance probably applies to memory _size_. When memories are small, one wants dense code (which probably means CISC); only with larger memories does RISC, with its less-dense code, make sense. Noel From allisonportable at gmail.com Wed Oct 24 08:13:01 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 09:13:01 -0400 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 10/23/2018 05:32 PM, Gordon Henderson via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 23 Oct 2018, ben via cctalk wrote: > >> The PDP 11 is nice machine, but I am looking? for simpler designs >> where 16K words is a valid memory size for a OS and small single user >> software. > > Try the Modular One with an OS written in BCPL. > > https://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/files/3230/PRG08.pdf > > Although that paper suggest 32K of core. > > -Gordon Why not the Data General Nova,? 16bits and fairly simple. Allison From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Oct 24 08:14:17 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 09:14:17 -0400 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <20181024130116.B11F718C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181024130116.B11F718C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Oct 24, 2018, at 9:01 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Paul Koning > >> A lot more comes from the CPU architecture. The instruction set, of >> course (arguably the first RISC). > > An observation about RISC: I've opined before that the CISC->RISC transition > was driven, in part, by the changing balance of CPU speed versus memory > speed: with slow memory and fast CPUs, it makes sense to get as much > execution bang out of every fetch buck (so complex instructions); but when > memory bandwidth goes up, one needs a fast CPU to use it all (so simple > instructions). > > It occurs to be that the same balance probably applies to memory _size_. When > memories are small, one wants dense code (which probably means CISC); only > with larger memories does RISC, with its less-dense code, make sense. That sounds reasonable. But what does that say about the CDC 6000 series? It's RISC, essentially, running on expensive and fairly slow memory. (Fast bandwidth due to 32 way interleave, but roughly 8 cycles access latency.) I think the magic is that the instruction encoding is very efficient, so you get the execution benefits of RISC without the space penalties. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Oct 24 08:19:58 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 09:19:58 -0400 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <20181023230856.1047318C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181023230856.1047318C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <757BC20D-4C3E-4A1A-8AB4-3C92E733DD2E@comcast.net> > On Oct 23, 2018, at 7:08 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > ... > There was a recent discussion about code density (I forget whether here, or > on TUHS), and someone mentioned this paper: > > http://web.eece.maine.edu/~vweaver/papers/iccd09/iccd09_density.pdf > > which shows that for a combo of benchmarks, the PDP-11 had the densest code > out of all the ones they looked at. (They didn't look at the PDP-8, but I > suspect that since it's a single-address design, it's almost ceertainly not > as dense.) > > The PDP-11 dates back to the days of core (it went through several generations > before DRAM arrived - e.g. the -11/70 originally shipped with core), and given > core prices, minimizing code size was pretty important - hence the results > above. What's interesting is that the paper uses compiled code. The gcc back end for pdp11 is still a work in progress and clearly doesn't deliver best possible code, certainly not back then. paul From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Oct 24 08:29:26 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:29:26 +0000 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <1bba29ea-7dd5-c074-8df5-fb16ba2e94a2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20d426e7-3471-727f-168e-73f7f320569c@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On 10/24/18 5:47 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 at 20:01, Alan Perry via cctalk > wrote: > >> Excuse me, but I work for Oracle on Solaris (primarily on USB code) and >> it is not EOL. Oracle just released Solaris 11.4 and the next release is >> being worked on. > Oh! Well, I'm very glad to hear it. > > But the news has not spread -- cf. > > http://dtrace.org/blogs/bmc/2017/09/04/the-sudden-death-and-eternal-life-of-solaris/ > > https://www.networkworld.com/article/3160176/hardware/game-over-for-solaris-and-sparc.html > > https://www.networkworld.com/article/3222707/data-center/the-sun-sets-on-solaris-and-sparc.html > > https://siliconangle.com/2017/09/05/oracle-layoffs-signal-end-life-sparc-solaris-products/ > > https://www.itprotoday.com/software-development/new-oracle-layoffs-probably-signal-end-line-solaris > You act surprised.? I find that, like the regular news, the trade news is more interested in creating news than reporting real news. bill From cym224 at gmail.com Wed Oct 24 08:45:21 2018 From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 09:45:21 -0400 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 24/10/2018, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote (in part): [...] > Come to think of it, most Linux users I know are Windows converts. > Very few are Mac converts -- once you go Mac, you can't go back, > apparently. Why would you? (Mac is certified POSIX and works very nicely with Sun mice and UNIX keyboards. #6-) N. From cym224 at gmail.com Wed Oct 24 08:45:21 2018 From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 09:45:21 -0400 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 24/10/2018, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote (in part): [...] > Come to think of it, most Linux users I know are Windows converts. > Very few are Mac converts -- once you go Mac, you can't go back, > apparently. Why would you? (Mac is certified POSIX and works very nicely with Sun mice and UNIX keyboards. #6-) N. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Oct 24 08:55:28 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:55:28 +0000 Subject: Microsoft-Paul Allen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/24/18 9:45 AM, Nemo via cctalk wrote: > On 24/10/2018, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote (in part): > [...] >> Come to think of it, most Linux users I know are Windows converts. >> Very few are Mac converts -- once you go Mac, you can't go back, >> apparently. > Why would you? (Mac is certified POSIX and works very nicely with Sun > mice and UNIX keyboards. #6-) > I have used Apple computers since the earliest days.? Apple ][, Lisa, Mac and to this day I have a Mac laptop.? I have? used Windows since the days of 3.1, including WfW 3.11 and all the followons? up thru Windows 10.? And during all this time I have also used Unix/Linux.? Care to guess which one is my most used class of OSes?? :-) (I have used other OSes during this time, but none of them fit into this discussion.? Always, the right tool for the job in my choices.? Guess which one meets that requirement the most times!) bill From allisonportable at gmail.com Wed Oct 24 09:05:41 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 10:05:41 -0400 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <757BC20D-4C3E-4A1A-8AB4-3C92E733DD2E@comcast.net> References: <20181023230856.1047318C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <757BC20D-4C3E-4A1A-8AB4-3C92E733DD2E@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2eec369c-7aee-5594-c852-dd258ac48135@gmail.com> On 10/24/2018 09:19 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Oct 23, 2018, at 7:08 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> >> ... >> There was a recent discussion about code density (I forget whether here, or >> on TUHS), and someone mentioned this paper: >> >> http://web.eece.maine.edu/~vweaver/papers/iccd09/iccd09_density.pdf >> >> which shows that for a combo of benchmarks, the PDP-11 had the densest code >> out of all the ones they looked at. (They didn't look at the PDP-8, but I >> suspect that since it's a single-address design, it's almost ceertainly not >> as dense.) >> >> The PDP-11 dates back to the days of core (it went through several generations >> before DRAM arrived - e.g. the -11/70 originally shipped with core), and given >> core prices, minimizing code size was pretty important - hence the results >> above. > What's interesting is that the paper uses compiled code. The gcc back end for pdp11 is still a work in progress and clearly doesn't deliver best possible code, certainly not back then. > > paul > I found that paper to be a not so interesting and more or less pointless.? For many applications its what's on the chip and rarely does it focus on architecture.? Engineers need to do things or produce things that work and? most of the time it comes down to whats available and price.? With embedded machines the IO capability and resident memory are likely deciding factors more so than if its Harvard or Von, RISC or CISC.?? The other is the tool chain costs in, acquisition cost,? time to learn, and apply. Allison From rickb at bensene.com Wed Oct 24 10:35:17 2018 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 08:35:17 -0700 Subject: Desktop Metaphor In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B490@mail.bensene.com> Earlier, I wrote: >> The whole desktop metaphor UI existed long before Windows 95 in non-Unix implementations by Xerox PARC (Palo Alto Research >>Center) with the pioneering Xerox Alto, introduced in 1973, which implemented Alan Kay's concepts for the desktop metaphor that >>were postulated in 1970 using Smalltalk as the core operating system. To which Liam P. responded: >That, again, *was the point I was trying to make*. >We used to have a ton of prior art and alternative designs, and today, >they have all gone, with basically no impact. I get the point, now. I was looking at it more from a historical standpoint than from the view of /today/. I totally agree with Liam as far as every other desktop paradigm prior to Win95 is dead from a practical standpoint, except possibly the (and it can be debated) the Apple desktop environment. I believe that the history of the desktop metaphor prior to Win95 certainly had an impact on the development of the Win95 desktop environment, and those concepts carry through to today, but in terms of desktop UIs created after Win95, I can't argue that any aren't derivatives of the Win95 environment. -Rick From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Oct 24 10:47:46 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 09:47:46 -0600 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <20181024130116.B11F718C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181024130116.B11F718C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 10/24/2018 07:01 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > An observation about RISC: I've opined before that the CISC->RISC > transition was driven, in part, by the changing balance of CPU speed > versus memory speed: with slow memory and fast CPUs, it makes sense to get > as much execution bang out of every fetch buck (so complex instructions); > but when memory bandwidth goes up, one needs a fast CPU to use it all > (so simple instructions). Maybe I need to finish my coffee before posting, but here goes anyway.... I thought memory and CPU speed used to be somewhat comparable historically. And that such is NOT the case now. As such, I feel like the industry has probably ended up going the wrong way based on Noel's statement. Am I failing to take into account the memory fetch buck being transacted out of L1 / L2 cache (hopefully not main memory)? Will someone show me a clue-by-four (but not hit me in the face with it)? Please and thank you. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Oct 24 10:53:14 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 16:53:14 +0100 Subject: Astounding Asking Price Message-ID: <007501d46bb1$acfb49c0$06f1dd40$@ntlworld.com> My jaw dropped when I saw this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/223201002247?ul_noapp=true It looks nice externally, and it has the pedestal, which is nice, but the seller has not even give the spec or posted pics of the innards and it is "untested". At that price I would expect a bit more information.. As it happens, I am trying to fix my 350 at the moment. Regards Rob From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Oct 24 10:53:50 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 10:53:50 -0500 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: References: <20181023230856.1047318C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <885e9562-0a95-69eb-6d73-4c4bcda99cbf@sydex.com> <7675a2c6-bb17-5ecd-7f1c-c0d115925dd8@jetnet.ab.ca> <42c33b50-88a5-908c-d716-0c6a2941578b@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5BD0958E.4050009@pico-systems.com> On 10/24/2018 07:36 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > IBM channels are (from the programmer point of view at > least) merely hardwired controllers Well, no. They actually can do a lot more. They can do branching and simple arithmetic. We had a program to deal with damaged/deteriorating tapes. You could operate sense switches on the tape control unit to tell it when to give up on retries on a bad block and go to the next one. This allowed the operator to copy all the recoverable blocks from a bad tape. Once started by the CPU, this program ran entirely in the channel. The original scheme for disks was that the control unit + channel would be able to scan a range of disk tracks to find a record in which a string of bytes matched a pattern. This turned out to not work so well on larger systems as it could tie up not only the control unit but the whole channel for the duration of the search. In 1962-3 or so, when the 360 was designed, IBM had no idea how heavily the systems were going to depend on the disk drives. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Oct 24 10:57:49 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 10:57:49 -0500 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5BD0967D.3090206@pico-systems.com> On 10/24/2018 08:13 AM, allison via cctalk wrote: > On 10/23/2018 05:32 PM, Gordon Henderson via cctalk wrote: >> On Tue, 23 Oct 2018, ben via cctalk wrote: >> >>> The PDP 11 is nice machine, but I am looking for simpler designs >>> where 16K words is a valid memory size for a OS and small single user >>> software. >> Try the Modular One with an OS written in BCPL. >> >> https://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/files/3230/PRG08.pdf >> >> Although that paper suggest 32K of core. >> >> -Gordon > Why not the Data General Nova, 16bits and fairly simple. > > Yeah, basically a PDP-8 with a wider word. No surprise, Edson De Castro designed the PDP-8 first, at DEC, before creating Data General. And, it retained all the horrible things about the PDP-8 that I hated. Jon From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Wed Oct 24 10:59:59 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 16:59:59 +0100 Subject: Astounding Asking Price In-Reply-To: <007501d46bb1$acfb49c0$06f1dd40$@ntlworld.com> References: <007501d46bb1$acfb49c0$06f1dd40$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: >It looks nice externally, and it has the pedestal, which is nice, but the >seller has not even give the spec or posted pics of the innards and it is >"untested". At that price I would expect a bit more information.. Instant alarm bells to me are a seller posting a London address but the item is 'for pickup only in Budapest, Hungary' -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk On Wed, 24 Oct 2018 at 16:53, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > My jaw dropped when I saw this: > https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/223201002247?ul_noapp=true > > > > It looks nice externally, and it has the pedestal, which is nice, but the > seller has not even give the spec or posted pics of the innards and it is > "untested". At that price I would expect a bit more information.. > > > > As it happens, I am trying to fix my 350 at the moment. > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > From oltmansg at gmail.com Wed Oct 24 11:02:27 2018 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 11:02:27 -0500 Subject: Astounding Asking Price In-Reply-To: <007501d46bb1$acfb49c0$06f1dd40$@ntlworld.com> References: <007501d46bb1$acfb49c0$06f1dd40$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 10:53 AM Rob Jarratt via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > My jaw dropped when I saw this: > https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/223201002247?ul_noapp=true > > > > It looks nice externally, and it has the pedestal, which is nice, but the > seller has not even give the spec or posted pics of the innards and it is > "untested". At that price I would expect a bit more information.. > > > > As it happens, I am trying to fix my 350 at the moment. > > > Would it make you feel bad if I told you I threw away a perfectly good 350 with the pedestal as pictured in the early 90s? ;) From lproven at gmail.com Wed Oct 24 11:08:22 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 18:08:22 +0200 Subject: Desktop Metaphor In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B490@mail.bensene.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B490@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Oct 2018 at 17:35, Rick Bensene wrote: > > Earlier, I wrote: > >> The whole desktop metaphor UI existed long before Windows 95 in non-Unix implementations by Xerox PARC (Palo Alto Research >>Center) with the pioneering Xerox Alto, introduced in 1973, which implemented Alan Kay's concepts for the desktop metaphor that >>were postulated in 1970 using Smalltalk as the core operating system. > > To which Liam P. responded: > >That, again, *was the point I was trying to make*. > > >We used to have a ton of prior art and alternative designs, and today, > >they have all gone, with basically no impact. > > I get the point, now. > > I was looking at it more from a historical standpoint than from the view of /today/. I totally agree with Liam as far as every other desktop paradigm prior to Win95 is dead from a practical standpoint, except possibly the (and it can be debated) the Apple desktop environment. > > I believe that the history of the desktop metaphor prior to Win95 certainly had an impact on the development of the Win95 desktop environment, and those concepts carry through to today, but in terms of desktop UIs created after Win95, I can't argue that any aren't derivatives of the Win95 environment. Oh good. I am relieved. :-) For clarity, for example -- GNOME 3 isn't Win95-like. But it was designed by removing the bits MS said were its patented IP -- taskbar with buttons for each app window, start menu, etc. -- and replacing them with a dock-like app launcher/switcher and a full-screen iconic app launcher. It's also very instructive to look at the mockups of GNOME 3 before release: http://www.vuntz.net/journal/post/2008/10/22/494-desktop-shell-from-the-user-experience-hackfest-general-overview https://wiki.gnome.org/ThreePointZero/DesignHistory https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/GnomeShell/Design/Iterations/AppBrowsingAlternative https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/GnomeShell/Design/Iterations/AppBrowsingAlternative02 Very text-heavy and cluttered. Then the test versions of Unity started to appear in late 2010: http://www.webupd8.org/2011/03/ubuntu-1104-alpha-3-is-out-screenshots.html Then look how GNOME 3.0 looked! https://www.gnome-look.org/p/1123050/ https://www.gnome-look.org/s/Gnome/p/1111022/ Unity, of course, is very visibly Mac OS X-like. Single panel at the top, containing an app name at the left, then a global menu bar, then status icons. Down the left, a Dock-like launcher containing both app launchers and running apps (with an indicator to show they're open), folder shortcuts and minimised windows. OS X defaults to putting this at the bottom but I personally move it to the left -- more efficient use of space on widescreens, and doesn't clash with menu bars on the right. Window controls are on the left, so that if a window is maximised, they don't get lose in among the indicators on the right... but again, like on a Mac. (NeXT's dock was on the right, but then its scrollbars were on the left. There was also a wharf for minimised windows at the bottom, which is a bit confusing.) To keep things a _little_ different from OS X, Ubuntu's app name is truncated, the global menus are hidden until mouseover, and the dock doesn't grow or shrink, but these are fairly superficial differences. The GNOME foundation refused Ubuntu's attempted code contributions, but I think that it's visible that they took design cues from Unity. But GNOME is trying to do something a little different. There's an almost frantic effort to remove anything which isn't essential. Generic app-global functions are moved into a single menu in the top panel; there's no global menu bar. The launcher/dock thing is only visible in overview mode, in other words, more aggressively hidden than mere autohide. Maximise/minimise buttons are hidden by default, and menu bars are discouraged, as are separate toolbars and separate title bars -- all are merged into a single strip. This is a desktop for people who don't do much window management. The tooling is for people who run apps full-screen all the time, and switch between them. I don't work like that, so it annoys me. But I digress. I think the points here are two-fold: [1] There is one extant FOSS Linux desktop that's totally un-Windows-like... but the influence, albeit 2nd-hand, of the Mac is plainly visible. Additionally, it was created by removing elements of a Win95-style desktop and changing the functions of what was left, and it shows. [2] The eventual relative popularity of GNOME 3 at least demonstrates people's willingness to _try_ something different if there are benefits. Budgie, TBH, I don't understand. I don't know why it exists. It's basically a very jiggered-about Win9x desktop, with a sort of top-panel-cum-taskbar and a dock bolted on. It does nothing you couldn't achieve far easier by reconfiguring Xfce or LXDE, so I don't know why they bothered. It seems to me to offer no benefits or improvements. It's just a bit of a different spin on GNOME 3, making it slightly more Mac-like, without being Mac-like enough to interest me. :-) -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Oct 24 11:15:54 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 17:15:54 +0100 Subject: Astounding Asking Price In-Reply-To: References: <007501d46bb1$acfb49c0$06f1dd40$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <008201d46bb4$d72860e0$857922a0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Adrian Graham [mailto:binarydinosaurs at gmail.com] > Sent: 24 October 2018 17:00 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Jarratt RMA ; General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Astounding Asking Price > > >It looks nice externally, and it has the pedestal, which is nice, but the > >seller has not even give the spec or posted pics of the innards and it is > >"untested". At that price I would expect a bit more information.. > > Instant alarm bells to me are a seller posting a London address but the item is > 'for pickup only in Budapest, Hungary' > Yes I noticed that too. Very odd, and ?750 to ship to the UK!! > -- > adrian/witchy > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? > t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs > w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk > > > On Wed, 24 Oct 2018 at 16:53, Rob Jarratt via cctalk > wrote: > My jaw dropped when I saw this: > https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/223201002247?ul_noapp=true > > > > It looks nice externally, and it has the pedestal, which is nice, but the > seller has not even give the spec or posted pics of the innards and it is > "untested". At that price I would expect a bit more information.. > > > > As it happens, I am trying to fix my 350 at the moment. > > > > Regards > > > > Rob From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Oct 24 11:16:27 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 12:16:27 -0400 Subject: Astounding Asking Price In-Reply-To: <007501d46bb1$acfb49c0$06f1dd40$@ntlworld.com> References: <007501d46bb1$acfb49c0$06f1dd40$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <5DB633CE-3F4A-40D1-95DB-59DC1733AD75@comcast.net> > On Oct 24, 2018, at 11:53 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > My jaw dropped when I saw this: > https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/223201002247?ul_noapp=true > > It looks nice externally, and it has the pedestal, which is nice, but the > seller has not even give the spec or posted pics of the innards and it is > "untested". At that price I would expect a bit more information.. That's about the list price of that machine when it was new. For today, it makes no sense at all. paul From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 24 11:38:46 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 09:38:46 -0700 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: References: <20181023230856.1047318C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <885e9562-0a95-69eb-6d73-4c4bcda99cbf@sydex.com> <7675a2c6-bb17-5ecd-7f1c-c0d115925dd8@jetnet.ab.ca> <42c33b50-88a5-908c-d716-0c6a2941578b@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 10/24/18 5:36 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > Very different. PPUs are real computers, vaguely like a PDP-8 in > fact but quite fast. The PPUs have major roles in the OS throughout > the 6000 series, not just in early versions. You obviously haven't spent much time in SSD (Special Systems). I recall working on a transaction-oriented multiple-CPU system (tied together with ECS) where the PPs were little more than I/O processors. *None* of the main operating system code was in the PPUs, save, perhaps for DSD. The reason for this was quite simple--PPs are terrible when it comes to block ECS transfers and having the PPs switch their attention between tasks whose CM lifetime was measured in milliseconds was impossible. We had several PPUs dedicated to servicing disk requests for oceans of 844 drives, but they communicated directly with the CM resident OS, not individual user tasks--no "stack processor"; requests were sorted and prioritized by the CM OS. We could run traditional batch jobs, but that was essentially a hack of some SCOPE 3.1.6 code and it did not play well with the major business of the system. PP0, MTR's resident code occupied about one printed page--it kept the time of day. Communications were again handled with a PPU, but even that was connected to several 1700s. All of this was an outgrowth of TCM (Time Critical Monitor), done by a fellow associated with the ROVER project. You needed the CEJ feature for this all to work. None of this "stick a request in RA+1 and wait around" stuff--far too slow. Some of this was evolutionary--Greg and Dave's MACE was considerably more CPU-oriented than was SCOPE. You can see the same influence in 7600 SCOPE--there the PPUs are very different, communicating via fixed memory areas in SCM. There, they really are nothing more than I/O processors. Interestingly, when STAR came along, the Twin Cities crowd tried to play the same game as the old SCOPE people did--put most of the OS into the stations. LRL didn't agree on that and moved most of the OS to a message-passing resident CPU based scheme, and it was that system that became the standard OS--and it was implemented in a variety of LRLTran, not assembly code. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 24 11:46:35 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 09:46:35 -0700 Subject: Not really vintage computing, but just in case it's of interest to anyone.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8e90dfc4-8cc2-9d33-9031-52ad4690e76c@bitsavers.org> On 10/24/18 1:08 AM, Evan Linwood via cctalk wrote: > taken from the listing : > > "It was used ( I Believe ) to process Geophysical Seismic Data during the exploration of Oil in Bass Straight. The circuitry is all NASA standard." > > https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/gosford/other-electronics-computers/vintage-computer-tape-drive/1194865314 > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?66273-I-am-putting-the-CART-before-the-HORSE!-ie-300kg-of-1960-s-Computer-Hardware From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Oct 24 11:48:35 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:48:35 -0300 Subject: NOVApalooza in 2 weeks - DG Nova - was Re: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <5BD0967D.3090206@pico-systems.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD0967D.3090206@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 2018-10-24 12:57 p.m., Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 10/24/2018 08:13 AM, allison via cctalk wrote: >> On 10/23/2018 05:32 PM, Gordon Henderson via cctalk wrote: >>> On Tue, 23 Oct 2018, ben via cctalk wrote: >>> >>>> The PDP 11 is nice machine, but I am looking? for simpler designs >>>> where 16K words is a valid memory size for a OS and small single user >>>> software. >>> Try the Modular One with an OS written in BCPL. >>> >>> https://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/files/3230/PRG08.pdf >>> >>> Although that paper suggest 32K of core. >>> >>> -Gordon >> Why not the Data General Nova,? 16bits and fairly simple. >> >> > Yeah, basically a PDP-8 with a wider word.? No surprise, Edson De Castro > designed the PDP-8 first, at DEC, before creating Data General.? And, it Yep. (Letter posted by Bruce Ray) https://imgur.com/a/ZeED5bL > retained all the horrible things about the PDP-8 that I hated. > > Jon > So you won't be at NOVApalooza then? It's not too late to sign up: http://www.novapalooza.org/ --Toby From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 24 12:00:11 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 10:00:11 -0700 Subject: NOVApalooza in 2 weeks - DG Nova - was Re: 70's computers In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD0967D.3090206@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <23901180-1da0-d708-95c8-388d85b20fbb@bitsavers.org> > So you won't be at NOVApalooza then? It's not too late to sign up: > http://www.novapalooza.org/ When: October 22-24, 2018 How was it? From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Oct 24 12:00:36 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:00:36 -0400 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: References: <20181023230856.1047318C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <885e9562-0a95-69eb-6d73-4c4bcda99cbf@sydex.com> <7675a2c6-bb17-5ecd-7f1c-c0d115925dd8@jetnet.ab.ca> <42c33b50-88a5-908c-d716-0c6a2941578b@sydex.com> Message-ID: <6293B6F4-564A-4D1F-8F6C-B176E42BFB0E@comcast.net> > On Oct 24, 2018, at 12:38 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 10/24/18 5:36 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> Very different. PPUs are real computers, vaguely like a PDP-8 in >> fact but quite fast. The PPUs have major roles in the OS throughout >> the 6000 series, not just in early versions. > > You obviously haven't spent much time in SSD (Special Systems). I > recall working on a transaction-oriented multiple-CPU system (tied > together with ECS) where the PPs were little more than I/O processors. > *None* of the main operating system code was in the PPUs, save, perhaps > for DSD. > > The reason for this was quite simple--PPs are terrible when it comes to > block ECS transfers and having the PPs switch their attention between > tasks whose CM lifetime was measured in milliseconds was impossible. Actually, no, my 6000 time was at the University of Illinois PLATO project. It runs on NOS, which has both CPU OS code and substantial quantities of PP resident OS stuff. PLATO is intensely dependent on ECS, far more than typical CDC software. And in fact, several of its PPs talk via ECS, not CM. Disk I/O, terminal I/O, these go via ECS. paul From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 24 12:01:15 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 10:01:15 -0700 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <5BD0967D.3090206@pico-systems.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD0967D.3090206@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <52e814e9-cd92-866c-3e63-2355420b63ea@bitsavers.org> On 10/24/18 8:57 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > Yeah, basically a PDP-8 with a wider word. Four accumulators, and no memory pages From cramcram at gmail.com Wed Oct 24 11:31:40 2018 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 09:31:40 -0700 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <5BD0967D.3090206@pico-systems.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD0967D.3090206@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: You know that since you mentioned possibly using CMOS 22V10's why not just build a board around AMD 29XX bit slice parts. They actually predate 22V10's by quite a bit and you can pretty much implement what every you want to without rewiring. Marc On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 8:57 AM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 10/24/2018 08:13 AM, allison via cctalk wrote: > > On 10/23/2018 05:32 PM, Gordon Henderson via cctalk wrote: > >> On Tue, 23 Oct 2018, ben via cctalk wrote: > >> > >>> The PDP 11 is nice machine, but I am looking for simpler designs > >>> where 16K words is a valid memory size for a OS and small single user > >>> software. > >> Try the Modular One with an OS written in BCPL. > >> > >> https://www.cs.ox.ac.uk/files/3230/PRG08.pdf > >> > >> Although that paper suggest 32K of core. > >> > >> -Gordon > > Why not the Data General Nova, 16bits and fairly simple. > > > > > Yeah, basically a PDP-8 with a wider word. No surprise, > Edson De Castro designed the PDP-8 first, at DEC, before > creating Data General. And, it retained all the horrible > things about the PDP-8 that I hated. > > Jon > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 24 12:53:29 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 11:53:29 -0600 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: References: <20181024130116.B11F718C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <78b749e3-0df3-dcfb-3def-b50bbaa24f2f@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/24/2018 9:47 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 10/24/2018 07:01 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> An observation about RISC: I've opined before that the CISC->RISC >> transition was driven, in part, by the changing balance of CPU speed >> versus memory speed: with slow memory and fast CPUs, it makes sense to >> get as much execution bang out of every fetch buck (so complex >> instructions); but when memory bandwidth goes up, one needs a fast CPU >> to use it all (so simple instructions). > > Maybe I need to finish my coffee before posting, but here goes anyway.... > > I thought memory and CPU speed used to be somewhat comparable > historically.? And that such is NOT the case now. Statements made here may or may not reflect having morning coffee. Back then it was throwing floating point numbers around, now it is pixels at high speed. Regardless of the data, most of the time (assuming simple hardware) you spend more time calculating the effective address of data getting the data itself. A RISC machine may have better space to cache stuff,but inside knowledge how memory gets to the alu units from main memory was visible until just a few years ago. we have the NEW intel 800086 20% faster on benchmarks,using C+++ MOO-GNU compiler. (Fine print older may have a 200% loss of speed in some applications, re-compile with the latest (never released to the public software) written in Chinese.* I have no idea what is in a modern home computer, but I suspect it still follows the same design of the IBM PC. Single CPU with segmented memory and bit of DMA here and there. Computer Science models are from the transistor era of computing but don't reflect the internal speeds in the cpu chips. To me they reflect the vacuum tube model of computing. Time to re-think again. Ben. * if it was real fine print, I need a lawyer to read it. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 24 12:57:31 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 10:57:31 -0700 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <78b749e3-0df3-dcfb-3def-b50bbaa24f2f@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20181024130116.B11F718C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <78b749e3-0df3-dcfb-3def-b50bbaa24f2f@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 10/24/18 10:53 AM, ben via cctalk wrote: > I have no idea what is in a modern home computer, but I suspect > it still follows the same design of the IBM PC. Single CPU > with segmented memory and bit of DMA here and there. Wow... You are out of touch, aren't you. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Oct 24 13:06:03 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 15:06:03 -0300 Subject: NOVApalooza in 2 weeks - DG Nova - was Re: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <23901180-1da0-d708-95c8-388d85b20fbb@bitsavers.org> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD0967D.3090206@pico-systems.com> <23901180-1da0-d708-95c8-388d85b20fbb@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5f0430da-1d1b-c8c9-7bc6-a0cd1a2c43ca@telegraphics.com.au> On 2018-10-24 2:00 p.m., Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > >> So you won't be at NOVApalooza then? It's not too late to sign up: >> http://www.novapalooza.org/ > > > When: October 22-24, 2018 > > How was it? > > > Oops! I read the subject line and not the dates... From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 24 13:11:52 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 12:11:52 -0600 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD0967D.3090206@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <7a49ba5b-39ed-ec7c-70e3-70069538a05f@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/24/2018 10:31 AM, Marc Howard via cctalk wrote: > You know that since you mentioned possibly using CMOS 22V10's why not just > build a board around AMD 29XX bit slice parts. They actually predate > 22V10's by quite a bit and you can pretty much implement what every you > want to without rewiring. > > Marc * LOW POWER and REPROGRAMABLE * reglar 22V10's are 100 ma per chip, and I can buy them online. I have 5 2901's but I can only find them on ebay now. If I design a register based machine I have them, other wise TTL is better for odd sized word lengths. Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 24 13:22:16 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 12:22:16 -0600 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: References: <20181024130116.B11F718C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <78b749e3-0df3-dcfb-3def-b50bbaa24f2f@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <6c460aa6-35ba-e739-00b8-d8758ce78bc4@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/24/2018 11:57 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 10/24/18 10:53 AM, ben via cctalk wrote: > >> I have no idea what is in a modern home computer, but I suspect >> it still follows the same design of the IBM PC. Single CPU >> with segmented memory and bit of DMA here and there. > > Wow... > > You are out of touch, aren't you. Am I really, every thing is so backwards compatable with the classic PC's I don't see much new other than what was hacked on. I am dealing with archiecture model here, the real hardware don't matter anyway. If it takes X cycles to read memory, it still X cycles where memory can be 10uS or 10pS. Ben. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Oct 24 13:31:41 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 14:31:41 -0400 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <6c460aa6-35ba-e739-00b8-d8758ce78bc4@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20181024130116.B11F718C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <78b749e3-0df3-dcfb-3def-b50bbaa24f2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <6c460aa6-35ba-e739-00b8-d8758ce78bc4@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <89D9E459-BAF3-409C-89FA-8FCD782D0B06@comcast.net> > On Oct 24, 2018, at 2:22 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > > On 10/24/2018 11:57 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> On 10/24/18 10:53 AM, ben via cctalk wrote: >>> I have no idea what is in a modern home computer, but I suspect >>> it still follows the same design of the IBM PC. Single CPU >>> with segmented memory and bit of DMA here and there. >> Wow... >> You are out of touch, aren't you. > > Am I really, every thing is so backwards compatable with the classic > PC's I don't see much new other than what was hacked on. Single CPU, segmented memory? No. Multiple CPUs (8 or so in my laptop, many more in servers). Flat 64 bit address space. It's true that the original 8086 instruction set lives on with all its warts, and many more added over the years. And yes, I guess that you *can* run them in 32 bit segmented mode if you're crazy. But that's not how they are actually used. The same applies to other successful architectures: MIPS, IBM 360. Or programming languages -- consider C for a particularly horrid example, or worse yet C++. Al is right. You might benefit from some more studying of these subjects. paul From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Oct 24 13:34:52 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 11:34:52 -0700 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <6c460aa6-35ba-e739-00b8-d8758ce78bc4@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20181024130116.B11F718C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <78b749e3-0df3-dcfb-3def-b50bbaa24f2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <6c460aa6-35ba-e739-00b8-d8758ce78bc4@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > On Oct 24, 2018, at 11:22 AM, ben via cctalk wrote: > > On 10/24/2018 11:57 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> On 10/24/18 10:53 AM, ben via cctalk wrote: >>> I have no idea what is in a modern home computer, but I suspect >>> it still follows the same design of the IBM PC. Single CPU >>> with segmented memory and bit of DMA here and there. >> Wow... >> You are out of touch, aren't you. > > Am I really, every thing is so backwards compatable with the classic > PC's I don't see much new other than what was hacked on. > I am dealing with archiecture model here, the real hardware don't matter > anyway. If it takes X cycles to read memory, it still X cycles where > memory can be 10uS or 10pS. Ben. > > Not so much anymore. ;-) None of the current OS?s have anything to do with the segmentation of x86 as it?s all gone as part of the 64-bit ISA. It?s still there if you use the older legacy modes but those are not used other than booting (and that will go away soon too). The lower level architecture is also significantly changed with out-of-order execution, deep pipelines and large L1/L2/L3 caches. Even though from an ISA perspective, the x86 has only a few visible integer registers, with OOO and register renaming (I think the current CPUs have 192 registers that they can use for ?renaming?) it isn?t much of an issue. Oh, and I almost forgot. You always have multiple CPUs (typically 2-8 on most mobile and desktops?and that?s without hyper-threading enabled). Servers are typically 16+ per socket and there can be upto 8 sockets per server without getting esoteric (so for a typical 4 socket server you can get 64-128 CPUs). TTFN - Guy From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 24 13:56:34 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 11:56:34 -0700 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <6c460aa6-35ba-e739-00b8-d8758ce78bc4@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20181024130116.B11F718C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <78b749e3-0df3-dcfb-3def-b50bbaa24f2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <6c460aa6-35ba-e739-00b8-d8758ce78bc4@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 10/24/18 11:22 AM, ben via cctalk wrote: > Am I really, every thing is so backwards compatable with the classic > PC's I don't see much new other than what was hacked on. > I am dealing with archiecture model here, the real hardware don't matter > anyway. If it takes X cycles to read memory, it still X cycles where > memory can be 10uS or 10pS. Ben. Well yes and no--memory speeds haven't scaled to the same extent that CPU speeds have. Consider that in 1982, you could get 80 nsec 4116s, where your CPU was typically run between 4 and 8MHz. CPU speeds have improved about a thousandfold, so that a 4GHz CPU isn't particularly exotic, but I don't know of many 80 psec. consumer-grade DRAMs.(it takes light about 80 psec to travel one inch). --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 24 14:21:21 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 12:21:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: References: <20181024130116.B11F718C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <78b749e3-0df3-dcfb-3def-b50bbaa24f2f@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Oct 2018, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 10/24/18 10:53 AM, ben via cctalk wrote: > >> I have no idea what is in a modern home computer, but I suspect >> it still follows the same design of the IBM PC. Single CPU >> with segmented memory and bit of DMA here and there. > > Wow... > > You are out of touch, aren't you. > It's either that or BOFH-level trolling. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 24 15:17:53 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 14:17:53 -0600 Subject: modern stuff In-Reply-To: <89D9E459-BAF3-409C-89FA-8FCD782D0B06@comcast.net> References: <20181024130116.B11F718C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <78b749e3-0df3-dcfb-3def-b50bbaa24f2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <6c460aa6-35ba-e739-00b8-d8758ce78bc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <89D9E459-BAF3-409C-89FA-8FCD782D0B06@comcast.net> Message-ID: <90302436-c038-ff79-bae7-ea643939c4fc@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/24/2018 12:31 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Oct 24, 2018, at 2:22 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 10/24/2018 11:57 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >>> On 10/24/18 10:53 AM, ben via cctalk wrote: >>>> I have no idea what is in a modern home computer, but I suspect >>>> it still follows the same design of the IBM PC. Single CPU >>>> with segmented memory and bit of DMA here and there. >>> Wow... >>> You are out of touch, aren't you. >> >> Am I really, every thing is so backwards compatable with the classic >> PC's I don't see much new other than what was hacked on. > > Single CPU, segmented memory? No. Multiple CPUs (8 or so in my laptop, many more in servers). Flat 64 bit address space. > Well I can still run DOS BOX and get my nice 8086 instruction set. > It's true that the original 8086 instruction set lives on with all its warts, and many more added over the years. And yes, I guess that you *can* run them in 32 bit segmented mode if you're crazy. But that's not how they are actually used. The same applies to other successful architectures: MIPS, IBM 360. Or programming languages -- consider C for a particularly horrid example, or worse yet C++. All the computer science books push RISC now. EVEN KUTH has gone to the DARK SIDE. The point I was making and it got lost, for efficient programing the programmer has to know some times the fine detail of cpu and memory. With the way hardware keeps being revised often for more profit, nobody knows the hardware any more. > Al is right. You might benefit from some more studying of these subjects. That may be true, but I can't change the market place for crappy designs, since for now I am locked into a windows OS. I use a free FPGA and PAL programing software. > paul 70's computers are more interesting. That is why do we have PI computers running PDP 8 emulators? Ben, From imp at bsdimp.com Wed Oct 24 15:20:25 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 14:20:25 -0600 Subject: Astounding Asking Price In-Reply-To: <007501d46bb1$acfb49c0$06f1dd40$@ntlworld.com> References: <007501d46bb1$acfb49c0$06f1dd40$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 9:53 AM Rob Jarratt via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > My jaw dropped when I saw this: > https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/223201002247?ul_noapp=true > > > > It looks nice externally, and it has the pedestal, which is nice, but the > seller has not even give the spec or posted pics of the innards and it is > "untested". At that price I would expect a bit more information.. > > > > As it happens, I am trying to fix my 350 at the moment. > Untested Pro 350's are like US$150-US$250 range on ebay typically. Warner From imp at bsdimp.com Wed Oct 24 15:22:54 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 14:22:54 -0600 Subject: Astounding Asking Price In-Reply-To: References: <007501d46bb1$acfb49c0$06f1dd40$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 2:20 PM Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 9:53 AM Rob Jarratt via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> My jaw dropped when I saw this: >> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/223201002247?ul_noapp=true >> >> >> >> It looks nice externally, and it has the pedestal, which is nice, but the >> seller has not even give the spec or posted pics of the innards and it is >> "untested". At that price I would expect a bit more information.. >> >> >> >> As it happens, I am trying to fix my 350 at the moment. >> > > Untested Pro 350's are like US$150-US$250 range on ebay typically. > https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-DIGITAL-EQUIPMENT-CORP-DEC-RAINBOW-PC350-I-COMPUTER-FLOPPY-DISK/332562279306?epid=583415379&hash=item4d6e41ab8a:g:qR0AAOSw9NBafMjq:sc:FedExHomeDelivery!80602!US!-1:rk:1:pf:1&frcectupt=true OK, not really a Rainbow, but that's the term to search for if you want to buy one cheap. This one is $99. Warner From mhs.stein at gmail.com Wed Oct 24 15:28:28 2018 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 16:28:28 -0400 Subject: Burroughs TD keyboard - was Selling keyboards without the terminal References: <166a28c1907-1ec4-534@webjas-vad190.srv.aolmail.net> <8adf4f1e-1c82-90d4-8731-374abeb8d26e@sydex.com> Message-ID: <394678D959F54551AD15FB6D9465C3B4@310e2> It's pretty unlikely that I'll ever get my TD700 working so, with all this talk about terminals missing keyboards, does anyone need/want a keyboard for a Burroughs TD700/TD800 type terminal? http://terminals.classiccmp.org/wiki/images/0/0f/Burroughs_TD_700-3.jpg http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/burroughs/terminal/TD830.jpg Might have tech docs somewhere; Microswitch guts, parallel interface IIRC. m From commodorejohn at gmail.com Wed Oct 24 15:08:03 2018 From: commodorejohn at gmail.com (John Ames) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:08:03 -0700 Subject: Desktop Metaphor Message-ID: > Liam Proven wrote: > On Tue, 23 Oct 2018 at 18:59, Paul Berger via cctalk > wrote: >> >> This is my issue with a lot of Linux distros they seem to try to hard to >> look and work like mac or like windows while I would rather have them >> look and work like the xwindows I knew and loved. One of my biggest >> aggravations is cut and paste I would very much rather it worked more >> like it used to on X. > > If you want it old-style, build it old-style. > > Install the minimal or server version of Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, > whatever you want, then install X.org and your window manager of > choice. > > This is how I have been experimentally assembling GNUstep desktops for > years now. Have to concur with this. Even the "minimalist" (i.e. non-GNOME/KDE) *nix "desktop environment" projects these days are getting so bloated that I've given up bothering with them and set up an X environment one component at a time. Currently running Window Maker with SpaceFM and ROXTerm; getting it all properly set up and tweaked to my liking took some doing, but the payoff was well worth it. Now if I could only excise the GTK3 blight entirely, I'd really be set. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Oct 24 15:31:45 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 17:31:45 -0300 Subject: Burroughs TD keyboard - was Selling keyboards without the terminal In-Reply-To: <394678D959F54551AD15FB6D9465C3B4@310e2> References: <166a28c1907-1ec4-534@webjas-vad190.srv.aolmail.net> <8adf4f1e-1c82-90d4-8731-374abeb8d26e@sydex.com> <394678D959F54551AD15FB6D9465C3B4@310e2> Message-ID: On 2018-10-24 5:28 p.m., Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > It's pretty unlikely that I'll ever get my TD700 working so, with all this talk about terminals missing keyboards, does anyone need/want a keyboard for a Burroughs TD700/TD800 type terminal? > > http://terminals.classiccmp.org/wiki/images/0/0f/Burroughs_TD_700-3.jpg > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/burroughs/terminal/TD830.jpg > > Might have tech docs somewhere; Microswitch guts, parallel interface IIRC. > > m > Sorry, gotta ask: Why not sell the whole setup? There are people on this list who could probably fix it. --T From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Oct 24 15:55:00 2018 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 16:55:00 -0400 Subject: NOVApalooza in 2 weeks - DG Nova - was Re: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <23901180-1da0-d708-95c8-388d85b20fbb@bitsavers.org> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD0967D.3090206@pico-systems.com> <23901180-1da0-d708-95c8-388d85b20fbb@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: It just ended. I made a crap video (no people in it) that Bruce needs to screen before I post to Youtube, however, there was a video team that shot an enormous amount of 4K footage. Bruce does not quite know what to do with it, but figured it needed recording. -- Will On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 1:00 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > So you won't be at NOVApalooza then? It's not too late to sign up: > > http://www.novapalooza.org/ > > > When: October 22-24, 2018 > > How was it? > > From mhs.stein at gmail.com Wed Oct 24 15:57:51 2018 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 16:57:51 -0400 Subject: Burroughs TD keyboard - was Selling keyboards without the terminal References: <166a28c1907-1ec4-534@webjas-vad190.srv.aolmail.net> <8adf4f1e-1c82-90d4-8731-374abeb8d26e@sydex.com> <394678D959F54551AD15FB6D9465C3B4@310e2> Message-ID: <9E740E74925948F3B575760EA3BE65E7@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Toby Thain via cctalk" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 4:31 PM Subject: Re: Burroughs TD keyboard - was Selling keyboards without the terminal > On 2018-10-24 5:28 p.m., Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: >> It's pretty unlikely that I'll ever get my TD700 working so, with all this talk about terminals missing keyboards, does anyone need/want a keyboard for a Burroughs TD700/TD800 type terminal? >> >> http://terminals.classiccmp.org/wiki/images/0/0f/Burroughs_TD_700-3.jpg >> >> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/burroughs/terminal/TD830.jpg >> >> Might have tech docs somewhere; Microswitch guts, parallel interface IIRC. >> >> m >> > > Sorry, gotta ask: Why not sell the whole setup? There are people on this > list who could probably fix it. > > --T I have a spare keyboard; thought I'd mention it in case someone actually has a relevant terminal needing a keyboard, as per the original discussion thread. As to getting the TD700 working: It's built around a card cage with (I think) 8 plug-in boards, several of which are missing (and it weighs a ton!) A while back I chatted with a couple of folks who also had one (not working) and although not totally impossible it really didn't look feasible without those boards; also of course there's no guarantee that the Panaplex panel is still working. I *may* actually have someone who'll take the whole thing but I thought I'd ask here to see if there's any interest. m From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Oct 24 16:10:29 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 22:10:29 +0100 Subject: Astounding Asking Price In-Reply-To: References: <007501d46bb1$acfb49c0$06f1dd40$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <00c401d46bdd$fe63e110$fb2ba330$@ntlworld.com> Sadly this is on the wrong side of the pond. I would like to repair the one I have in any case. In fact, while I think I know the pinout of the F11 chips from a KDF11-A printset, can anyone confirm that pin 23 of the DIL package is the RESET signal? If that is correct then it is oscillating and resetting the machine constantly. I am trying to trace the source, but it seems to go through quite a few chips and I haven?t yet traced its source. Regards Rob From: Warner Losh [mailto:imp at bsdimp.com] Sent: 24 October 2018 21:23 To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Astounding Asking Price On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 2:20 PM Warner Losh > wrote: On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 9:53 AM Rob Jarratt via cctalk > wrote: My jaw dropped when I saw this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/223201002247?ul_noapp=true It looks nice externally, and it has the pedestal, which is nice, but the seller has not even give the spec or posted pics of the innards and it is "untested". At that price I would expect a bit more information.. As it happens, I am trying to fix my 350 at the moment. Untested Pro 350's are like US$150-US$250 range on ebay typically. https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-DIGITAL-EQUIPMENT-CORP-DEC-RAINBOW-PC350-I-COMPUTER-FLOPPY-DISK/332562279306?epid=583415379 &hash=item4d6e41ab8a:g:qR0AAOSw9NBafMjq:sc:FedExHomeDelivery!80602!US!-1:rk:1:pf:1&frcectupt=true OK, not really a Rainbow, but that's the term to search for if you want to buy one cheap. This one is $99. Warner From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 24 16:25:47 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 14:25:47 -0700 Subject: does a reverse-engineering EDA tool exist? Message-ID: <498763d7-40b0-40d2-b3fc-ec51993963af@bitsavers.org> To draw out the schematics for the Displaywriter I have a bunch of boards to trace out, and I don't want to do the usual "scribble on yellow pad" to do it. Has someone written a graphical tool for doing this? What I would like to find is a tool that puts up a bunch of footprints with internal IC functions shown, then a way to rapidly enter the buzzed out interconnections, generating a netlist. This is exactly backwards workflow from normal schematic entry and pcb layout. I suspect I'm just going to have to bite the bullet and write it.. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Oct 24 16:37:43 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 17:37:43 -0400 Subject: modern stuff In-Reply-To: <90302436-c038-ff79-bae7-ea643939c4fc@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20181024130116.B11F718C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <78b749e3-0df3-dcfb-3def-b50bbaa24f2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <6c460aa6-35ba-e739-00b8-d8758ce78bc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <89D9E459-BAF3-409C-89FA-8FCD782D0B06@comcast.net> <90302436-c038-ff79-bae7-ea643939c4fc@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <0CA32B7C-0703-4332-9436-540D27E729D4@comcast.net> > On Oct 24, 2018, at 4:17 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > >> ... > > 70's computers are more interesting. That is why do we have PI computers running PDP 8 emulators? It's all in what you want to do. If your interest is mostly the software, as it is for many of us, then running emulators makes a lot of sense. If your interest is the machine architecture, you might want to reverse engineer the design and implement it in an FPGA. Depending on how deep you want to go, that might be a functional model or a gate level model. A functional model may not tell you a whole lot more than a software emulator does; a gate level model is often hard to pull off but if you can do it, it will tell you everything you want to know about the original design including all its undocumented strange properties. And if you enjoy working on old electronics, there's no substitute for the original iron. That's not an option if none exists any longer, or so few that people don't dare powering them on. For example, it would be neat to run an EL-X8, but that's not going to happen, there's only one left. At least it is preserved in a real museum. As for myself, I've done all of the above: work on SIMH and DtCyber, work on a gate level model of the CDC 6600, and (occasionally) run my old Pro-380. paul From macro at linux-mips.org Wed Oct 24 16:58:54 2018 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 22:58:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Astounding Asking Price In-Reply-To: <008201d46bb4$d72860e0$857922a0$@ntlworld.com> References: <007501d46bb1$acfb49c0$06f1dd40$@ntlworld.com> <008201d46bb4$d72860e0$857922a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Oct 2018, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > Instant alarm bells to me are a seller posting a London address but the item is > > 'for pickup only in Budapest, Hungary' > > Yes I noticed that too. Very odd, and ?750 to ship to the UK!! They just chose to pay taxes in the UK and/or to fall under the UK jurisdiction, which is one of the benefits of the single EU market for businesses. It's not uncommon and there are various reasons to do that, generally to lower the cost and/or the risk of running a business. It's just like many US companies are registered in the state of Delaware even though they really run their business elsewhere. If you look through their store, you'll find other items whose price and postage are both reasonable, so it just could be an oddball case of getting the asking price wrong. I guess you can always ask them if they really mean it. Also it starts getting tricky to ship individual items abroad from/to many places once you get above 20kg (~44lbs), and they say it (indirectly) in the description, stating that they'll use your carrier of choice. FWIW, Maciej From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Oct 24 16:58:52 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 15:58:52 -0600 Subject: modern stuff In-Reply-To: <90302436-c038-ff79-bae7-ea643939c4fc@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20181024130116.B11F718C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <78b749e3-0df3-dcfb-3def-b50bbaa24f2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <6c460aa6-35ba-e739-00b8-d8758ce78bc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <89D9E459-BAF3-409C-89FA-8FCD782D0B06@comcast.net> <90302436-c038-ff79-bae7-ea643939c4fc@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 2:18 PM ben via cctalk wrote: > Well I can still run DOS BOX and get my nice 8086 instruction set. > I've heard many different adjectives used with regard to the 8086 instruction set, but this is the first time I've heard it described as "nice". Admittedly there are worse ones. From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Oct 24 17:14:42 2018 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 17:14:42 -0500 Subject: UNIX - An Open Solution Message-ID: I recently came across an eight-volume set of comb-bound, A4-sized booklets titled "UNIX - An Open Solution", by Mick Farmer and Richard Murphy. In trying to uncover more info about them, I found Mick Farmer's old home page: http://www.plan7.co.uk/mick.html. The books are mentioned there with the text "videos and workbook". Has anyone seen the videos from these lessons, or know where they could be found? Mr. Farmer's email is listed on the page - I can check with him if nothing turns up here. - j From schlae at gmail.com Wed Oct 24 17:38:09 2018 From: schlae at gmail.com (Eric Schlaepfer) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 15:38:09 -0700 Subject: does a reverse-engineering EDA tool exist? In-Reply-To: <498763d7-40b0-40d2-b3fc-ec51993963af@bitsavers.org> References: <498763d7-40b0-40d2-b3fc-ec51993963af@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I've gone through this a few times myself. There are a few approaches. One is to use a schematic tool like Kicad to place all the ICs first, then add the wires and rearrange things as you buzz out the connections. Another approach uses an intermediate step where you enter all the buzzed out connections into a spreadsheet, then go from the spreadsheet to the schematic. You can mark completed rows in the sheet so it's easier to keep track of your progress. What I've done in the past is to image both sides of a 2-layer board, pull it into GIMP, then trace out the traces and enter them into schematic. It won't work on >2 layer boards, although if a 4-layer board only uses the inner layers for power and ground planes, you can cheat a bit. For pads tied to power or ground, you can often shine a light from the back and look for the thermal "spokes" tying it to the plane. There is also a program called Sprint-Layout which I have not used but lets you place a reference photo underneath a board layout. One of the Amiga people have used it to reverse engineer the A3640 CPU board: http://wordpress.hertell.nu/?page_id=514 (I'd check out his page anyway because he also describes his spreadsheet method.) I have also heard (but not personally confirmed) that Diptrace lets you do that too. On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 2:51 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > To draw out the schematics for the Displaywriter I have a bunch of boards > to trace out, > and I don't want to do the usual "scribble on yellow pad" > to do it. Has someone written a graphical tool for doing this? > > What I would like to find is a tool that puts up a bunch of footprints > with internal IC functions > shown, then a way to rapidly enter the buzzed out interconnections, > generating a netlist. > > This is exactly backwards workflow from normal schematic entry and pcb > layout. > > I suspect I'm just going to have to bite the bullet and write it.. > > > > From spc at conman.org Wed Oct 24 18:02:18 2018 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 19:02:18 -0400 Subject: modern stuff In-Reply-To: <90302436-c038-ff79-bae7-ea643939c4fc@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20181024130116.B11F718C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <78b749e3-0df3-dcfb-3def-b50bbaa24f2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <6c460aa6-35ba-e739-00b8-d8758ce78bc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <89D9E459-BAF3-409C-89FA-8FCD782D0B06@comcast.net> <90302436-c038-ff79-bae7-ea643939c4fc@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20181024230218.GA31781@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great ben via cctalk once stated: > On 10/24/2018 12:31 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > >It's true that the original 8086 instruction set lives on with all its > >warts, and many more added over the years. And yes, I guess that you > >*can* run them in 32 bit segmented mode if you're crazy. But that's not > >how they are actually used. The same applies to other successful > >architectures: MIPS, IBM 360. Or programming languages -- consider C for > >a particularly horrid example, or worse yet C++. > > All the computer science books push RISC now. EVEN KUTH has gone to the > DARK SIDE. The first RISC chips appears in the 80s, making them over 30 years old now. Even the MIPS and SPARC architecture (RISC based) are nearly (if not already) 30 years old (I used systems with both in the early 90s). If anything, the DARK SIDE won in that we seem to be perpetually stuck with a glorified 8080 (that is so complex that it contains an additional, embedded no-quite-so-glorified 8080 to help it boot up! [1]). -spc (It kind of reminds of the MCP from TRON ... ) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine#Disabling_the_ME From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 24 18:45:41 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 17:45:41 -0600 Subject: modern stuff In-Reply-To: References: <20181024130116.B11F718C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <78b749e3-0df3-dcfb-3def-b50bbaa24f2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <6c460aa6-35ba-e739-00b8-d8758ce78bc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <89D9E459-BAF3-409C-89FA-8FCD782D0B06@comcast.net> <90302436-c038-ff79-bae7-ea643939c4fc@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <34e1f336-7626-c127-5051-078f257b0764@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/24/2018 3:58 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 2:18 PM ben via cctalk > wrote: > > Well I can still run DOS BOX and get my nice 8086 instruction set. > > > I've heard many different adjectives used with regard to the 8086 > instruction set, but this is the first time I've heard it described as > "nice". > > Admittedly there are worse ones. > What about Intel's forgotten object oriented kitchen sink processor. IAPX-432 better or worse? Ben. From evanlinwood at hotmail.com Wed Oct 24 18:53:55 2018 From: evanlinwood at hotmail.com (Evan Linwood) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 23:53:55 +0000 Subject: Not really vintage computing, but just in case it's of interest to anyone.. Message-ID: Message: 103 Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 09:46:35 -0700 From: Al Kossow To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Not really vintage computing, but just in case it's of interest to anyone.. Message-ID: <8e90dfc4-8cc2-9d33-9031-52ad4690e76c at bitsavers.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On 10/24/18 1:08 AM, Evan Linwood via cctalk wrote: > taken from the listing : > > "It was used ( I Believe ) to process Geophysical Seismic Data during the exploration of Oil in Bass Straight. The circuitry is all NASA standard." > > https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/gosford/other-electronics-computers/vintage-computer-tape-drive/1194865314 > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?66273-I-am-putting-the-CART-before-the-HORSE!-ie-300kg-of-1960-s-Computer-Hardware Thanks Al - I hadn't seen that. Hopefully something is still happening with it. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Oct 24 18:58:40 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 19:58:40 -0400 Subject: modern stuff In-Reply-To: <34e1f336-7626-c127-5051-078f257b0764@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20181024130116.B11F718C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <78b749e3-0df3-dcfb-3def-b50bbaa24f2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <6c460aa6-35ba-e739-00b8-d8758ce78bc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <89D9E459-BAF3-409C-89FA-8FCD782D0B06@comcast.net> <90302436-c038-ff79-bae7-ea643939c4fc@jetnet.ab.ca> <34e1f336-7626-c127-5051-078f257b0764@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > On Oct 24, 2018, at 7:45 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > > On 10/24/2018 3:58 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 2:18 PM ben via cctalk > wrote: >> Well I can still run DOS BOX and get my nice 8086 instruction set. >> I've heard many different adjectives used with regard to the 8086 instruction set, but this is the first time I've heard it described as "nice". >> Admittedly there are worse ones. > > What about Intel's forgotten object oriented kitchen sink processor. > IAPX-432 better or worse? > Ben. Was that the one designed around Ada? I remember looking at that way back when the paper "Tablet, the computer of the year 2000" was published -- thinking it might be a suitable engine for that. I also throught APL might be good because it's terse. Oops. Totally missed the fact that most computer users are application users, not programmers. paul From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Oct 24 19:35:04 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 18:35:04 -0600 Subject: modern stuff In-Reply-To: <34e1f336-7626-c127-5051-078f257b0764@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20181024130116.B11F718C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <78b749e3-0df3-dcfb-3def-b50bbaa24f2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <6c460aa6-35ba-e739-00b8-d8758ce78bc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <89D9E459-BAF3-409C-89FA-8FCD782D0B06@comcast.net> <90302436-c038-ff79-bae7-ea643939c4fc@jetnet.ab.ca> <34e1f336-7626-c127-5051-078f257b0764@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 17:45 ben via cctalk wrote: > On 10/24/2018 3:58 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 2:18 PM ben via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > Well I can still run DOS BOX and get my nice 8086 instruction set. > > > > > > I've heard many different adjectives used with regard to the 8086 > > instruction set, but this is the first time I've heard it described as > > "nice". > > > > Admittedly there are worse ones. > > > > What about Intel's forgotten object oriented kitchen sink processor. > IAPX-432 better or worse? > I wouldn't call it a "kitchen sink processor"; some of it's problems are actually with things that are missing. However, it's a VCISC, and the instruction set isn't really comparable to anything else. If I had to design a computer for either general-purpose or embedded use, I'd definitely choose 8086 over iAPX 432, but that isn't because I consider the 8086 instruction set to be particularly good. From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Oct 24 19:36:22 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 18:36:22 -0600 Subject: modern stuff In-Reply-To: References: <20181024130116.B11F718C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <78b749e3-0df3-dcfb-3def-b50bbaa24f2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <6c460aa6-35ba-e739-00b8-d8758ce78bc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <89D9E459-BAF3-409C-89FA-8FCD782D0B06@comcast.net> <90302436-c038-ff79-bae7-ea643939c4fc@jetnet.ab.ca> <34e1f336-7626-c127-5051-078f257b0764@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 17:58 Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > What about Intel's forgotten object oriented kitchen sink processor. > > IAPX-432 better or worse? > > Ben. > > Was that the one designed around Ada? > No, but it's the one that Intel's marketing department said was designed for Ada. From guykd at optusnet.com.au Wed Oct 24 19:41:25 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 11:41:25 +1100 Subject: does a reverse-engineering EDA tool exist? In-Reply-To: <498763d7-40b0-40d2-b3fc-ec51993963af@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20181025114125.01095ec8@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 02:25 PM 24/10/2018 -0700, you wrote: >To draw out the schematics for the Displaywriter I have a bunch of boards to trace out, >and I don't want to do the usual "scribble on yellow pad" >to do it. Has someone written a graphical tool for doing this? > >What I would like to find is a tool that puts up a bunch of footprints with internal IC functions >shown, then a way to rapidly enter the buzzed out interconnections, generating a netlist. > >This is exactly backwards workflow from normal schematic entry and pcb layout. > >I suspect I'm just going to have to bite the bullet and write it.. A: Yes. But god knows what it costs. http://scancad.net/products/pcb-design-fabrication/pcb-reverse-engineering ScanFAB is a fully integrated, stand-alone, scanner- based re-engineering system that permits the creation of CAD data (DXF/Gerber/Drill/CNC) from existing multilayer PCBs, parts, phototools, stencils, drawings, microfiche, PDF files, X-Ray images, etc. It also contains a full Gerber editor that can be used to import, modify and export Gerber & Drill data. ScanFAB uses Windows-based software linked to a high-resolution, calibrated flatbed scanner. This combination allows for accurate reverse engineering and precise reproduction of data to exact FORM, FIT and FUNCTION for today's high density PCB board designs, complex parts and tooling. Apart from that, here are some related discussions: http://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/how-to-reverse-engineer-a-simple-through-hole-board/ How to reverse engineer a simple through-hole board http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/making-reverse-engineered-altium-designs-public/ Making reverse engineered Altium designs public And a few examples of my own reverse engineering for repairs: http://everist.org/NobLog/20151112_planning_vacuum.htm#54120B_ps http://everist.org/NobLog/20161129_3d_learning_curve.htm#ps http://everist.org/NobLog/20160331_lightning_luck.htm#tla614 In general since I'm not trying to end up with schematics and PCB layouts for remanufacture, but just anything good enough for fault finding, I just use photoshop to aid in the track tracing stage. Then pencil and paper (in multiple stages) to end up with a sensibly organized schematic. If I want a neat looking 'schematic' (just for viewing, ie only an image) I use photoshop for that too. eg http://everist.org/NobLog/pics/20161129/20161219_PSU_schem.png Though to manufacture an identical or modified version of the thing, full schematic editor and layout CAD is necessary. Btw Al, did you ever find that TM200 IBM card reader manual you recalled seeing somewhere? I still can't find a manual with schematics for my TM200. Plenty of M200 manuals, nothing for the very different TM200. See http://everist.org/NobLog/20180922_data_in_holes.htm#tm200 Guy From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 24 20:50:39 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 18:50:39 -0700 Subject: does a reverse-engineering EDA tool exist? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20181025114125.01095ec8@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20181025114125.01095ec8@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <3cc5df92-21dd-d7de-fb01-abebd71623e1@bitsavers.org> On 10/24/18 5:41 PM, Guy Dunphy wrote: > A: Yes. But god knows what it costs. > > http://scancad.net/products/pcb-design-fabrication/pcb-reverse-engineering > ScanFAB is a fully integrated, stand-alone, scanner- based re-engineering system that permits the creation of CAD data (DXF/Gerber/Drill/CNC) from existing multilayer PCBs, parts, phototools, stencils, drawings, microfiche, PDF files, X-Ray images, etc. > It also contains a full Gerber editor that can be used to import, modify and export Gerber & Drill data. > ScanFAB uses Windows-based software linked to a high-resolution, calibrated flatbed scanner. This combination allows for accurate reverse engineering and precise reproduction of data to exact FORM, FIT and FUNCTION for today's high density PCB board designs, complex parts and tooling. Something like this won't really help for IBM boards. The machines in the Displaywriter era are fabricated with circuit board material with holes every .1" across the entire board. They are multi-layer, and the solder mask is dark so optical scanning isn't practical. I've been tracing out pcbs since the late 70's, so I'm familiar with all the tricks, tracing starting at outputs, identifying busses and decoders, etc. but it's getting tedious especially on random logic, and I was hoping to automate some of it. While it won't be practical to do it on the IBM boards because of the component density I have been working on automating the tracing process by building some modules that will do some tracing in parallel. From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Oct 24 20:56:27 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 21:56:27 -0400 Subject: Teletype cheap Message-ID: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Teletype-Machine-Model-3320-3WA-Teletypewriter-AS-IS-FOR-PARTS-local-pick-up/142981290439?hash=item214a5959c7:g:UXoAAOSwmXJbylEN:rk:6:pf:1&frcectupt=true b From derek.newland at gmail.com Wed Oct 24 21:40:17 2018 From: derek.newland at gmail.com (Derek Newland) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 22:40:17 -0400 Subject: Teletype cheap In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I hate being on the [south]east coast. On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 9:56 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Teletype-Machine-Model-3320-3WA-Teletypewriter-AS-IS-FOR-PARTS-local-pick-up/142981290439?hash=item214a5959c7:g:UXoAAOSwmXJbylEN:rk:6:pf:1&frcectupt=true > > b > -- *Derek Newland* | (828) 234-4731 | derek.newland at gmail.com From kylevowen at gmail.com Wed Oct 24 21:42:26 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 21:42:26 -0500 Subject: Action Computer Enterprise and ADES Message-ID: Anyone have any manuals or software for an ACE 1600? Or manuals for an ADES hard drive? I've had this one in storage for a while, but it seems fairly interesting and possibly complete. http://imgur.com/a/KR83Okw Thanks, Kyle From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Wed Oct 24 21:49:19 2018 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 21:49:19 -0500 Subject: Advice needed: Entry point into things PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 10:39 PM Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk > wrote: >> you. The thing >> is, I would like to have something pdp8-ish that would allow me to play >> a little bit >> with the programming languages that were available for these machines, >> FORTRAN 4K and >> FORTRAN IV in particular. Now, I would love to be able to time some >> FORTRAN jobs just >> to get an idea about what it was like back then. I am aware of PiDP-8, >> simh, as well as >> SBC6120, SBC6120RBC. > I would probably do all the things but in a particular order. > > If my goal was to learn PDP-8 software, I would just start with simh > running on anything. I have a PiDP-8. It's nice. You definitely get > the feel of running an older PDP-8 (except no noise for floppy drives > or DECtape, and no seek time) but under the blinky covers, it's > running simh. You can learn everything about the configuration of > PDP-8 models, about memory, and all the programming languages with > simh. From there, consider a PiDP-8 if you want a quick junior-sized > emulated machine for the look and feel of things. > > The SBC6120 with FB6120 is also nice. I have one. -snip- Based on the answers from everyone (Thanks!), I think that I will grab one of the RaspberryPi's laying around and start using the PiDP-8 software or plain simH while I can procure the hardware side of PiDP-8; I think that I'll perform the serial console hack on the Pi.? I will continue to research options for programming the GALs in the SBC6120 or SBC6120RBC, since I have one HD6120 chip and it would be a waste not to use it.? The OSI Processor Lab route seems interesting, especially since I have three HM6100 chips, but I think that it isn't in a stage that allows reproducing the PDP-8 usage experience. If you guys can recommend a cheap programmer that handles the ATF22V10CQZ-20PU and ATF16V8BQL-15PU (SBC6120) without problems, I am all ears. > >From there, one of the challenges of repairing your VT78 and VT278 > boards is there's no blinkenlights console to assess repair status > during the repair or to try to toggle in test programs. Replacing a > ROM is easy enough, even if you have to make a pin-swapping socket > adapter to use a modern EPROM (I don't know what type of ROM is in the > VT78, but it's possible that it's something standard like a 2708 or > 2716). > > -ethan > The control panel ROM in the vt78 is proprietary (12bit data width), so it would have to be replaced by a more complex circuit.? But one of the three vt78s that I have does have that chip, so this is an issue only if I try to restore the other two boards. Carlos. From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Oct 24 21:56:24 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 21:56:24 -0500 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <52e814e9-cd92-866c-3e63-2355420b63ea@bitsavers.org> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD0967D.3090206@pico-systems.com> <52e814e9-cd92-866c-3e63-2355420b63ea@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5BD130D8.6060105@pico-systems.com> On 10/24/2018 12:01 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 10/24/18 8:57 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > >> Yeah, basically a PDP-8 with a wider word. > > Four accumulators, and no memory pages Yes, and the accumulators could hold addresses, which was a big plus. But, still, storing the subroutine return address in the first location of the subroutine. Ugh, how 1960's that was! Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Oct 24 22:00:58 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 22:00:58 -0500 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <7a49ba5b-39ed-ec7c-70e3-70069538a05f@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD0967D.3090206@pico-systems.com> <7a49ba5b-39ed-ec7c-70e3-70069538a05f@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5BD131EA.4060607@pico-systems.com> On 10/24/2018 01:11 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 10/24/2018 10:31 AM, Marc Howard via cctalk wrote: >> You know that since you mentioned possibly using CMOS >> 22V10's why not just >> build a board around AMD 29XX bit slice parts. They >> actually predate >> 22V10's by quite a bit and you can pretty much implement >> what every you >> want to without rewiring. >> >> Marc > > * LOW POWER and REPROGRAMABLE * reglar 22V10's are 100 ma > per chip, and I can buy them online. I have 5 2901's but I > can only find them on ebay now. If I design a register > based machine I have them, other wise > TTL is better for odd sized word lengths. > Ben. > > > Well, I built a 2903 + 2910 32-bit microcoded machine in 1982 or so. See http://pico-systems.com/stories/1982.html for gory details. But, today, it would make WAY more sense to do it with FPGAs. Want to try an experiment? Don't get out the wire-wrap gun or soldering iron, make a copy of the FPGA files and edit away. If it doesn't work, you don't have to undo the wiring changes! Also, the FPGA version might be as much as 10 times faster. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Oct 24 22:06:51 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 22:06:51 -0500 Subject: does a reverse-engineering EDA tool exist? In-Reply-To: <498763d7-40b0-40d2-b3fc-ec51993963af@bitsavers.org> References: <498763d7-40b0-40d2-b3fc-ec51993963af@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5BD1334B.7000801@pico-systems.com> On 10/24/2018 04:25 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > To draw out the schematics for the Displaywriter I have a bunch of boards to trace out, > and I don't want to do the usual "scribble on yellow pad" > to do it. Has someone written a graphical tool for doing this? > > What I would like to find is a tool that puts up a bunch of footprints with internal IC functions > shown, then a way to rapidly enter the buzzed out interconnections, generating a netlist. > > This is exactly backwards workflow from normal schematic entry and pcb layout. > > I suspect I'm just going to have to bite the bullet and write it.. Hmmm, you COULD actually use a schematic tool to do this! Maybe create the components to look like DIPs. I know I could do this in Protel 99 without a great deal of trouble. Then, just draw in all the wires. I suspect a few other good schematic entry tools could also do this. Jon From david at thecoolbears.org Wed Oct 24 18:07:03 2018 From: david at thecoolbears.org (David Coolbear) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 16:07:03 -0700 Subject: VAX Lisp, Macsyma, Maxima Message-ID: Does anyone know if any of these are still available for OpenVMS VAX? From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed Oct 24 18:13:03 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 16:13:03 -0700 Subject: VAX Lisp, Macsyma, Maxima In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Oct 24, 2018, at 4:07 PM, David Coolbear via cctech wrote: > > Does anyone know if any of these are still available for OpenVMS VAX? Part of the problem will be licensing, I think that I have copies of VAX Lisp, but I don?t think that it?s included with the hobbyist PAKs. Zane Sent from my iPod From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Oct 24 18:17:01 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 16:17:01 -0700 Subject: VAX Lisp, Macsyma, Maxima In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 4:07 PM David Coolbear via cctech wrote: > > Does anyone know if any of these are still available for OpenVMS VAX? 917AA VAX LISP/VMS [LISP030] or [LISP031] was on VMS Consolidated Software Distribution CD sets from at least Jan-1990 to May-1993 I have [LISP031] that I must have gotten from a CD set that was released in that time frame. From bear at typewritten.org Wed Oct 24 22:07:25 2018 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 20:07:25 -0700 Subject: VAX Lisp, Macsyma, Maxima In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 24, 2018, at 4:07 PM, David Coolbear via cctech wrote: > Does anyone know if any of these are still available for OpenVMS VAX? I don't know what "available" means in this context. But: VAX Lisp wasn't among the set of hobbyist licenses I got from HP last August. They did send me one when I asked, though. ok bear. -- until further notice From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 25 00:44:17 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 22:44:17 -0700 Subject: does a reverse-engineering EDA tool exist? In-Reply-To: <5BD1334B.7000801@pico-systems.com> References: <498763d7-40b0-40d2-b3fc-ec51993963af@bitsavers.org> <5BD1334B.7000801@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <09c8fd49-2c1f-b09e-5d21-d89e0d8bb36b@sydex.com> On 10/24/18 8:06 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > Hmmm, you COULD actually use a schematic tool to do this!? Maybe create > the components to look like DIPs.? I know I could do this in Protel 99 > without a great deal of trouble.? Then, just draw in all the wires. > I suspect a few other good schematic entry tools could also do this. I know that I've asked about this on one of the EDA boards and got nowhere. It seems that it would be possible to construct a schematic from a netlist, but I've never seen such a tool. I wonder if such a beast exists. --Chuck From shadoooo at gmail.com Thu Oct 25 00:47:50 2018 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 07:47:50 +0200 Subject: High res e-readers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kobo have a quite plain Linux, run on iMX processors, and are very easy to modify/script, and last but not least, to unbrick in case of severe problems. In many models, the internal memory is an SD card, so it can be expanded easily. Then you have also external SD. On the software side, try koreader. It's an open source reader, developed for eink devices. It works very well with PDFs, and can do intelligent text reflow, even on raw scans of books, via a sort of OCR. The nice thing is that it doesn't convert bitmap to text, but seems to split long lines of text in shorter sections, then rearranges the pieces on the screen, following font size options. It can be instructed to work as expected on multi column pages. Very nice! Andrea From bear at typewritten.org Thu Oct 25 01:37:11 2018 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 23:37:11 -0700 Subject: does a reverse-engineering EDA tool exist? In-Reply-To: <498763d7-40b0-40d2-b3fc-ec51993963af@bitsavers.org> References: <498763d7-40b0-40d2-b3fc-ec51993963af@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <9D221311-5C88-4A55-80D1-95053D23AF0D@typewritten.org> On Oct 24, 2018, at 2:25 PM, Al Kossow via cctech wrote: > What I would like to find is a tool that puts up a bunch of footprints with internal IC functions > shown, then a way to rapidly enter the buzzed out interconnections, generating a netlist. > > This is exactly backwards workflow from normal schematic entry and pcb layout. FWIW I am also quite interested in such a tool. ok bear. -- until further notice From bear at typewritten.org Thu Oct 25 01:37:11 2018 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 23:37:11 -0700 Subject: does a reverse-engineering EDA tool exist? In-Reply-To: <498763d7-40b0-40d2-b3fc-ec51993963af@bitsavers.org> References: <498763d7-40b0-40d2-b3fc-ec51993963af@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <9D221311-5C88-4A55-80D1-95053D23AF0D@typewritten.org> On Oct 24, 2018, at 2:25 PM, Al Kossow via cctech wrote: > What I would like to find is a tool that puts up a bunch of footprints with internal IC functions > shown, then a way to rapidly enter the buzzed out interconnections, generating a netlist. > > This is exactly backwards workflow from normal schematic entry and pcb layout. FWIW I am also quite interested in such a tool. ok bear. -- until further notice From guykd at optusnet.com.au Thu Oct 25 01:51:05 2018 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 17:51:05 +1100 Subject: does a reverse-engineering EDA tool exist? In-Reply-To: <5BD1334B.7000801@pico-systems.com> References: <498763d7-40b0-40d2-b3fc-ec51993963af@bitsavers.org> <498763d7-40b0-40d2-b3fc-ec51993963af@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20181025175105.01099258@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 10:06 PM 24/10/2018 -0500, you wrote: >On 10/24/2018 04:25 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> To draw out the schematics for the Displaywriter I have a bunch of boards to trace out, >> and I don't want to do the usual "scribble on yellow pad" >> to do it. Has someone written a graphical tool for doing this? >> >> What I would like to find is a tool that puts up a bunch of footprints with internal IC functions >> shown, then a way to rapidly enter the buzzed out interconnections, generating a netlist. >> >> This is exactly backwards workflow from normal schematic entry and pcb layout. >> >> I suspect I'm just going to have to bite the bullet and write it.. >Hmmm, you COULD actually use a schematic tool to do this! >Maybe create the components to look like DIPs. I know I >could do this in Protel 99 without a great deal of trouble. >Then, just draw in all the wires. >I suspect a few other good schematic entry tools could also >do this. > >Jon The idea of creating a lot of 'IC puppet' graphics showing internal functions connected to footprint pins to help in reverse engineering PCBs, may sound nice at first but probably won't be worth the effort in practice. It falls down in several cases: - ICs containing multiple functional blocks (eg 6 x inverters.) These may be used all over the place in a schematic. You don't want to be forced into drawing them together at any stage of schematic derivation. - Complex IC functions, in which physical pin arragements bear no resemblance to a sane functional symbol. Again, you don't want to be drawing schematics forced into physical pin arrangements. Pretty much every IC from simple counters and latches, on up are like this. - Even simple elements like op-amps - you want to be able to draw the + and - inputs whichever way up is appropriate for good schematic practice for the circuit form. - Power pins should appear on the schematic as sensible for the specific case. Usually not on actual circuit symbols. Keep the objective in mind. What you want to end up with is a schematic, that is laid out in a way that aids comprehension of how the circuit works. Typically this means overall left to right functional or power flow, with separate functional blocks visually separate, visual emphasis where appropriate, and so on. Something like the original designers drew, if they were any good. When you have only a PCB and want to reverse engineer the schematic, the tasks are: 1. Find data sheets for all the semiconductors/complex parts, so you have diagrams of pin functions. Extract just the pin diagrams to one convenient location, for easy reference while tracing tracks. Paper, or 2nd screen while using primary screen for PCB overlays. 2. Trace PCB copper connectivity, drawing schematic fragments as you go. Every component drawn in the fragents must have a designator. Use the ones from the PCB if there are any, or make them up if not. During this process it can be helpful to know the functions, but usually not essential. At this stage you're aiming to achieve something like a 'netlist with circuit fragments' that doesn't have to make sense on more than a very low level. The number one priority is to do this without errors. The only way to do that is to have a visual copy of the PCB on which you can mark node paths and components as you identify them (to 100% certainty) without fail. 3. Once you have a bunch of sheets of drawn circuit fragments, then integrate them into a sensible circuit diagram. This can be a multi-stage process, and I don't think can be automated. It requires comprehension of how the circuit functions, since that's what the schematic should be trying to convey. I like it when I achieve a schematic in which the component designators (from the original PCB) run in an orderly fashion across the derived schematic, since that's how the designer will have assigned them on their schematic. For stage 2 I use photoshop, with overlaid layers for the front and back of the PCB, and more layers for traced copper tracks, component designators (where there are none on the PCB and you have to make them up), notes, 'component done' dots, color codes for power rails, etc. Start with a hi-res photo of the board front, taken from some distance away to reduce component parallax and barrel distortion. In PS, add some guide lines for the board edges and use 'distort' to make the PCB image rectangular. Overlay a layer with the board rear photo. Flip it, make semi transparent, align and distort it to exactly align with the board front side image. If your photos were OK you should be able to get all pads right across the PCB to line up very well. You can adjust the colors of the PCB front and back layers to get a red/blue effect when viewing them both as overlaid transparencies. Btw older versions of photoshop tend to be more useful for this than recent versions. Load faster, simpler menus, less bullshit overall, etc. I use PS 5.5 for this. Turn autosave OFF! You want to make sensible staged version saves, when YOU want. For stage 3, the intermediate iterations in which you're forming an understanding of how the schematic fragments go together to a functional whole, are best done with paper and pencil since schematic editors tend to be not very good for shuffling schematic blocks around. Keep the first set of schematic fragments as the 'gold standard', with hopefully zero transcription errors. DON'T make any changes or 'done' highlighting to these yet. While you are 'integrating' use multiple pages, multiple quick sketches. These don't need to be complete as they are just layout concepts, getting a feel for how to arrange and space things. When ready to draw the final, neat and sensible schematic, then you have the choice of what tools to use. Hand drawn again? Or photoshop? Or a real schematic editor? Depends on the intended use. While creating this schematic, mark off elements from your original set of schematic fragments sheets. Guy From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Oct 25 03:01:55 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 10:01:55 +0200 (CEST) Subject: does a reverse-engineering EDA tool exist? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20181025175105.01099258@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <498763d7-40b0-40d2-b3fc-ec51993963af@bitsavers.org> <498763d7-40b0-40d2-b3fc-ec51993963af@bitsavers.org> <3.0.6.32.20181025175105.01099258@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Oct 2018, Guy Dunphy wrote: > Keep the objective in mind. What you want to end up with is a schematic, > that is laid out in a way that aids comprehension of how the circuit > works. Typically this means overall left to right functional or power > flow, with separate functional blocks visually separate, visual emphasis > where appropriate, and so on. Something like the original designers > drew, if they were any good. > > > When you have only a PCB and want to reverse engineer the schematic, the > tasks are: [...] This is actually the way how I reverse-engineered the MINCAL 523. Identify the address and data busses, registers, latches, functional sections (e.g. ALU, interrupt related, I/O, ...) and put that all together. And yes, it involves a lot of paper and pencil work, and that is faster and much more intuitive than doing it with the computer. To create the schematics I use gschem from the gEDA suite. Currently, I have started to reverse-engineer the Digico computer. I have only looked at the CPU board so far, but that leads to a dead-end as I am not able to unambiguously identify the address and data busses. So I have to continue with the front panel, start with the display/keypad where you can select the individual registers for entry/display and go back to the front panel connector back to the CPU board. There, I hope to find the instruction register and continue with the instruction decoder section. Christian From lars at nocrew.org Thu Oct 25 00:21:36 2018 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 05:21:36 +0000 Subject: VAX Lisp, Macsyma, Maxima In-Reply-To: (David Coolbear via cctech's message of "Wed, 24 Oct 2018 16:07:03 -0700") References: Message-ID: <7wlg6mr47z.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> How about NIL? There are some bits and pieces from ITS backups, but I don't know if there's enough to get it started, much less run a real application like Macsyma. Off on a tangent, I see T supports VAX and there was a T revival project some time ago. From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Oct 25 08:15:24 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 06:15:24 -0700 Subject: VAX Lisp, Macsyma, Maxima In-Reply-To: <7wlg6mr47z.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <7wlg6mr47z.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <63119636-52C2-49C6-AD15-39766A6DE565@avanthar.com> If going for something non-VAX, Lisp is available on Multics. I?m feeling a bit frustrated at the moment, I?ve run into an interesting issue with SecureCRT on iOS, and emacs on Multics. The key for ? and ? works fine from the command line, but not from emacs. I?ve verified this with both the on device ?keyboard?, and a real Apple ?Magic? keyboard. Zane Sent from my iPad > On Oct 24, 2018, at 10:21 PM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote: > > How about NIL? There are some bits and pieces from ITS backups, but I > don't know if there's enough to get it started, much less run a real > application like Macsyma. > > Off on a tangent, I see T supports VAX and there was a T revival project > some time ago. From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Oct 25 08:15:24 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 06:15:24 -0700 Subject: VAX Lisp, Macsyma, Maxima In-Reply-To: <7wlg6mr47z.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <7wlg6mr47z.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <63119636-52C2-49C6-AD15-39766A6DE565@avanthar.com> If going for something non-VAX, Lisp is available on Multics. I?m feeling a bit frustrated at the moment, I?ve run into an interesting issue with SecureCRT on iOS, and emacs on Multics. The key for ? and ? works fine from the command line, but not from emacs. I?ve verified this with both the on device ?keyboard?, and a real Apple ?Magic? keyboard. Zane Sent from my iPad > On Oct 24, 2018, at 10:21 PM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote: > > How about NIL? There are some bits and pieces from ITS backups, but I > don't know if there's enough to get it started, much less run a real > application like Macsyma. > > Off on a tangent, I see T supports VAX and there was a T revival project > some time ago. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 25 10:41:35 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 08:41:35 -0700 Subject: does a reverse-engineering EDA tool exist? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20181025175105.01099258@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <498763d7-40b0-40d2-b3fc-ec51993963af@bitsavers.org> <498763d7-40b0-40d2-b3fc-ec51993963af@bitsavers.org> <3.0.6.32.20181025175105.01099258@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <7bec219d-e016-7b77-e86c-1dd7d68c5e70@bitsavers.org> On 10/24/18 11:51 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > - ICs containing multiple functional blocks (eg 6 x inverters.) These may be used all over > the place in a schematic. You don't want to be forced into drawing them together at any > stage of schematic derivation. Actually you do, when creating nets from random logic and you don't want to miss the use of any small logic in a package. I need to look at the spreadsheet methodology used on the Amiga board trace. This is the tedious part. Tracing buffers, muxes, decoders is fairly straightforward, it is figuring out the glue logic that is tedious. It is really easy to lose your place doing it. You end up probing an output and then sweeping nearby ICs hoping to find something connected. It's much easier on a bus, where you know the source and there is a high probability it will connect to a 20 pin buffer or latch somewhere. There is also a pretty high probability these devices will either be near a microprocessor, or a board connector. From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Oct 25 11:02:55 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 11:02:55 -0500 Subject: does a reverse-engineering EDA tool exist? In-Reply-To: <09c8fd49-2c1f-b09e-5d21-d89e0d8bb36b@sydex.com> References: <498763d7-40b0-40d2-b3fc-ec51993963af@bitsavers.org> <5BD1334B.7000801@pico-systems.com> <09c8fd49-2c1f-b09e-5d21-d89e0d8bb36b@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5BD1E92F.3020200@pico-systems.com> On 10/25/2018 12:44 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 10/24/18 8:06 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > >> Hmmm, you COULD actually use a schematic tool to do this! Maybe create >> the components to look like DIPs. I know I could do this in Protel 99 >> without a great deal of trouble. Then, just draw in all the wires. >> I suspect a few other good schematic entry tools could also do this. > I know that I've asked about this on one of the EDA boards and got > nowhere. It seems that it would be possible to construct a schematic > from a netlist, but I've never seen such a tool. > > I wonder if such a beast exists. > > Well, not totally automatic, but many EDA systems have "back annotation", where changes to the PCB are taken back to the schematic. This is generally used to allow easy reassignment of the identical sections in multi-gate packages, but at least some of them can do MUCH more. I know Protel 99 essentially turns the whole board into a spreadsheet, where everything is available for reassignment. I suspect that if you laid out all the chips and then provided the interconnect info, it would create a VERY messy schematic, which you could then reorganize by hand. You could also make a PCB design, draw in the wiring, and it would then be able to make a netlist and take that back to the schematic. Jon From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Oct 25 11:18:45 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 09:18:45 -0700 Subject: does a reverse-engineering EDA tool exist? In-Reply-To: <5BD1E92F.3020200@pico-systems.com> References: <498763d7-40b0-40d2-b3fc-ec51993963af@bitsavers.org> <5BD1334B.7000801@pico-systems.com> <09c8fd49-2c1f-b09e-5d21-d89e0d8bb36b@sydex.com> <5BD1E92F.3020200@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > On Oct 25, 2018, at 9:02 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > On 10/25/2018 12:44 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> On 10/24/18 8:06 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >> >>> Hmmm, you COULD actually use a schematic tool to do this! Maybe create >>> the components to look like DIPs. I know I could do this in Protel 99 >>> without a great deal of trouble. Then, just draw in all the wires. >>> I suspect a few other good schematic entry tools could also do this. >> I know that I've asked about this on one of the EDA boards and got >> nowhere. It seems that it would be possible to construct a schematic >> from a netlist, but I've never seen such a tool. >> >> I wonder if such a beast exists. >> >> > Well, not totally automatic, but many EDA systems have "back annotation", where changes to the PCB are taken back to the schematic. This is generally used to allow easy reassignment of the identical sections in multi-gate packages, but at least some of them can do MUCH more. I know Protel 99 essentially turns the whole board into a spreadsheet, where everything is available for reassignment. I suspect that if you laid out all the chips and then provided the interconnect info, it would create a VERY messy schematic, which you could then reorganize by hand. You could also make a PCB design, draw in the wiring, and it would then be able to make a netlist and take that back to the schematic. > I?m wondering if a ?bed of nails? could be built that would allow for automated scanning of the traces to at least get the netlist. I do know that PCB fab houses use either a ?bed of nails? or a flying probe to validate the construction of the boards. Now that I think about it, a flying probe may be easier for us hobbyists to construct. The trick will be getting sufficient x/y resolution and not having the two probes interfere when the two probes are close to each other. TTFN - Guy From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 25 11:43:21 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 09:43:21 -0700 Subject: does a reverse-engineering EDA tool exist? In-Reply-To: References: <498763d7-40b0-40d2-b3fc-ec51993963af@bitsavers.org> <5BD1334B.7000801@pico-systems.com> <09c8fd49-2c1f-b09e-5d21-d89e0d8bb36b@sydex.com> <5BD1E92F.3020200@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <6e581b48-aa4c-f933-47d5-da9131360f6c@bitsavers.org> On 10/25/18 9:18 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: > I?m wondering if a ?bed of nails? could be built that would allow for automated scanning of the traces to at least get the netlist. yup that's the latest iteration of what I'm working on 16 bit open drain drivers, low voltage comparators, to a shift register output configured as two long scan chains. You turn one of the open drain drivers on, then sense if any of the pins are low through pogo pins I had started with DIP clips, but they are too expensive, and they can't be used on the IBM boards because the DIPS are only .1" apart. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 25 11:48:55 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 09:48:55 -0700 Subject: does a reverse-engineering EDA tool exist? In-Reply-To: References: <498763d7-40b0-40d2-b3fc-ec51993963af@bitsavers.org> <5BD1334B.7000801@pico-systems.com> <09c8fd49-2c1f-b09e-5d21-d89e0d8bb36b@sydex.com> <5BD1E92F.3020200@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <25f9095f-74b2-57a4-047a-ac951dcc526b@bitsavers.org> On 10/25/18 9:18 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: > Now that I think about it, a flying probe may be easier for us hobbyists to construct. The trick will be getting sufficient x/y resolution and not having the two probes interfere when the two probes are close to each other. > I hadn't thought about that. Two probes, one on the front and one on the back of the board... No interference. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 25 12:05:28 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 10:05:28 -0700 Subject: does a reverse-engineering EDA tool exist? In-Reply-To: <25f9095f-74b2-57a4-047a-ac951dcc526b@bitsavers.org> References: <498763d7-40b0-40d2-b3fc-ec51993963af@bitsavers.org> <5BD1334B.7000801@pico-systems.com> <09c8fd49-2c1f-b09e-5d21-d89e0d8bb36b@sydex.com> <5BD1E92F.3020200@pico-systems.com> <25f9095f-74b2-57a4-047a-ac951dcc526b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <52053ba6-a05d-ca35-852e-0bb5bf1bc31f@bitsavers.org> On 10/25/18 9:48 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 10/25/18 9:18 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: >> Now that I think about it, a flying probe may be easier for us hobbyists to construct. The trick will be getting sufficient x/y resolution and not having the two probes interfere when the two probes are close to each other. >> > > I hadn't thought about that. > Two probes, one on the front and one on the back of the board... > No interference. you could use two of these https://shop.evilmadscientist.com/productsmenu/846 From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Oct 25 12:11:26 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 10:11:26 -0700 Subject: does a reverse-engineering EDA tool exist? In-Reply-To: <52053ba6-a05d-ca35-852e-0bb5bf1bc31f@bitsavers.org> References: <498763d7-40b0-40d2-b3fc-ec51993963af@bitsavers.org> <5BD1334B.7000801@pico-systems.com> <09c8fd49-2c1f-b09e-5d21-d89e0d8bb36b@sydex.com> <5BD1E92F.3020200@pico-systems.com> <25f9095f-74b2-57a4-047a-ac951dcc526b@bitsavers.org> <52053ba6-a05d-ca35-852e-0bb5bf1bc31f@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <17780130-2AB9-453D-BDBA-FB32FC5F6853@shiresoft.com> > On Oct 25, 2018, at 10:05 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 10/25/18 9:48 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> On 10/25/18 9:18 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: >>> Now that I think about it, a flying probe may be easier for us hobbyists to construct. The trick will be getting sufficient x/y resolution and not having the two probes interfere when the two probes are close to each other. >>> >> >> I hadn't thought about that. >> Two probes, one on the front and one on the back of the board... >> No interference. > > you could use two of these > > https://shop.evilmadscientist.com/productsmenu/846 > > Very cool! TTFN - Guy From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Oct 25 12:28:29 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 11:28:29 -0600 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <5BD131EA.4060607@pico-systems.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD0967D.3090206@pico-systems.com> <7a49ba5b-39ed-ec7c-70e3-70069538a05f@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD131EA.4060607@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <28676f0b-8caa-b656-f3ee-e4d0c2597319@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/24/2018 9:00 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 10/24/2018 01:11 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >> On 10/24/2018 10:31 AM, Marc Howard via cctalk wrote: >>> You know that since you mentioned possibly using CMOS 22V10's why not >>> just >>> build a board around AMD 29XX bit slice parts.? They actually predate >>> 22V10's by quite a bit and you can pretty much implement what every you >>> want to without rewiring. >>> >>> Marc >> >> * LOW POWER and REPROGRAMABLE * reglar 22V10's are 100 ma per chip, >> and I can buy them online. I have 5 2901's but I can only find them on >> ebay now. If I design a register based machine I have them, other wise >> TTL is better for odd sized word lengths. >> Ben. >> >> >> > Well, I built a 2903 + 2910 32-bit microcoded machine in 1982 or so.? See > http://pico-systems.com/stories/1982.html > for gory details.? But, today, it would make WAY more sense to do it > with FPGAs.? Want to try an experiment?? Don't get out the wire-wrap gun > or soldering iron, make a copy of the FPGA files and edit away. If it > doesn't work, you don't have to undo the wiring changes! Also, the FPGA > version might be as much as 10 times faster. I just orderd 4 2901's off ebay, So I do plan to build something up to 32 bits. I have a DE1 FPGA setup for proto typing, but free pcb board layout programs all seem to suck for me. There is nothing for doing things like switches or card edge foot prints, but a gizzion and one surface mount that common people never use. > Jon > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 25 12:45:26 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 10:45:26 -0700 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <28676f0b-8caa-b656-f3ee-e4d0c2597319@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD0967D.3090206@pico-systems.com> <7a49ba5b-39ed-ec7c-70e3-70069538a05f@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD131EA.4060607@pico-systems.com> <28676f0b-8caa-b656-f3ee-e4d0c2597319@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4b2c0fd0-ab3d-55e6-907d-f199a20e1f17@sydex.com> On this subject, is there no interest in serial ALU designs? At one time, if you wanted a low-cast implementation, that was the way to do it. Also gives you a leg up on variable word-length designs. Didn't at least one of the more popular MPU designs employ a serial ALU? TMS9900? --Chuck From jim.manley at gmail.com Thu Oct 25 13:06:13 2018 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 12:06:13 -0600 Subject: modern stuff In-Reply-To: References: <20181024130116.B11F718C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <78b749e3-0df3-dcfb-3def-b50bbaa24f2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <6c460aa6-35ba-e739-00b8-d8758ce78bc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <89D9E459-BAF3-409C-89FA-8FCD782D0B06@comcast.net> <90302436-c038-ff79-bae7-ea643939c4fc@jetnet.ab.ca> <34e1f336-7626-c127-5051-078f257b0764@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: One of my postgraduate school CS professors worked on the iAPX 432 and his tidbit about the history of its development was that, whenever the EEs were confronted with a hardware-level problem by the CSs, the EEs would universally respond with, "Oh, well, that can be fixed by you software guys with a SMOP (small matter of programming).", in the microcode, and Intel's reference assembler, linker, and compilers. Obviously, he returned to academia before the project collapsed in a heap, and he might have had to scramble and compete with other departing CS PhDs (who would also have hung around too long). Many would probably be looking at another job where microprocessor microcode, assembler, linker, compiler, and system-level library development experience would have been highly desirable, and perhaps where the EEs were more reasonable. Plus, he didn't have to put "Served on what became the sunken shipwreck iAPX 432" on his resume/CV. That's because it wasn't yet at the Sixth Phase in the Six Phases of a Project, "Punishment of the Innocent, and Rewards for the Non-Participants". On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 6:35 PM Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 17:45 ben via cctalk wrote: > > > On 10/24/2018 3:58 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > > On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 2:18 PM ben via cctalk > > > wrote: > > > > > > Well I can still run DOS BOX and get my nice 8086 instruction set. > > > > > > > > > I've heard many different adjectives used with regard to the 8086 > > > instruction set, but this is the first time I've heard it described as > > > "nice". > > > > > > Admittedly there are worse ones. > > > > > > > What about Intel's forgotten object oriented kitchen sink processor. > > IAPX-432 better or worse? > > > > I wouldn't call it a "kitchen sink processor"; some of it's problems are > actually with things that are missing. However, it's a VCISC, and the > instruction set isn't really comparable to anything else. > > If I had to design a computer for either general-purpose or embedded use, > I'd definitely choose 8086 over iAPX 432, but that isn't because I consider > the 8086 instruction set to be particularly good. > From jecel at merlintec.com Thu Oct 25 13:23:02 2018 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 15:23:02 -0300 Subject: modern stuff In-Reply-To: References: <20181024130116.B11F718C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <78b749e3-0df3-dcfb-3def-b50bbaa24f2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <6c460aa6-35ba-e739-00b8-d8758ce78bc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <89D9E459-BAF3-409C-89FA-8FCD782D0B06@comcast.net> <90302436-c038-ff79-bae7-ea643939c4fc@jetnet.ab.ca> <34e1f336-7626-c127-5051-078f257b0764@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20181025182307.8CC5BEE02F1@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Jim Manley wrote about a professor's experience in the iAPX432 team. Didn't at least part of the team continue the project as the BiiN / 960MX? -- Jecel From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 25 13:33:11 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 11:33:11 -0700 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <4b2c0fd0-ab3d-55e6-907d-f199a20e1f17@sydex.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD0967D.3090206@pico-systems.com> <7a49ba5b-39ed-ec7c-70e3-70069538a05f@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD131EA.4060607@pico-systems.com> <28676f0b-8caa-b656-f3ee-e4d0c2597319@jetnet.ab.ca> <4b2c0fd0-ab3d-55e6-907d-f199a20e1f17@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1f369967-6355-20f7-5eec-6ee6f41cbbb1@bitsavers.org> On 10/25/18 10:45 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Didn't at least one of the more popular MPU designs employ a serial ALU? > TMS9900? You've mentioned this a couple of times. Are you confusing this with the serial CRU I/O scheme TI computers used? I double-checked and the 960,980 and 990 minicomputers are all 16 bit parallel machines. The 9980/1 and 9995 had an 8 bit memory bus but internally are 16. I double-checked, and the TMS9900 has a 16 bit ALU (page 6 in TMS_9900_Microprocessor_Data_Manual_May76.pdf on bitsavers) From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 25 13:37:01 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 11:37:01 -0700 Subject: modern stuff In-Reply-To: <20181025182307.8CC5BEE02F1@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> References: <20181024130116.B11F718C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <78b749e3-0df3-dcfb-3def-b50bbaa24f2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <6c460aa6-35ba-e739-00b8-d8758ce78bc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <89D9E459-BAF3-409C-89FA-8FCD782D0B06@comcast.net> <90302436-c038-ff79-bae7-ea643939c4fc@jetnet.ab.ca> <34e1f336-7626-c127-5051-078f257b0764@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181025182307.8CC5BEE02F1@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Message-ID: On 10/25/18 11:23 AM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. via cctalk wrote: > Didn't at least part of the team continue the project as the BiiN / > 960MX? Yes. Eric Smith can explain the whole history if he chooses to. Here is what he has on line for the 432 http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/intel/iapx432/ From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Oct 25 13:40:17 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 14:40:17 -0400 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <4b2c0fd0-ab3d-55e6-907d-f199a20e1f17@sydex.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD0967D.3090206@pico-systems.com> <7a49ba5b-39ed-ec7c-70e3-70069538a05f@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD131EA.4060607@pico-systems.com> <28676f0b-8caa-b656-f3ee-e4d0c2597319@jetnet.ab.ca> <4b2c0fd0-ab3d-55e6-907d-f199a20e1f17@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On Oct 25, 2018, at 1:45 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On this subject, is there no interest in serial ALU designs? At one > time, if you wanted a low-cast implementation, that was the way to do > it. Also gives you a leg up on variable word-length designs. > > Didn't at least one of the more popular MPU designs employ a serial ALU? > TMS9900? Serial ALU as a cost saver for low end makes sense in discrete transistor or early SSI machines, like the PDP-8/L. It's hard to see how it would be useful in MPUs, given that transistors are so much cheaper there. The other place I can think of serial arithmetic is in the Orthogonal computer architecture, sold by Sanders Associates from a 1960s invention by Bill Shooman. That's an interesting design that does vector arithmetic row-parallel but bit-serial. Goodyear STARAN used some of those ideas, I believe, though I know very little of the details. paul From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 25 13:48:05 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 11:48:05 -0700 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD0967D.3090206@pico-systems.com> <7a49ba5b-39ed-ec7c-70e3-70069538a05f@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD131EA.4060607@pico-systems.com> <28676f0b-8caa-b656-f3ee-e4d0c2597319@jetnet.ab.ca> <4b2c0fd0-ab3d-55e6-907d-f199a20e1f17@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 10/25/18 11:40 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Oct 25, 2018, at 1:45 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> >> On this subject, is there no interest in serial ALU designs? At one >> time, if you wanted a low-cast implementation, that was the way to do >> it. Also gives you a leg up on variable word-length designs. >> >> Didn't at least one of the more popular MPU designs employ a serial ALU? >> TMS9900? > > Serial ALU as a cost saver for low end makes sense in discrete transistor or early SSI machines, like the PDP-8/L. PDP-8/S Saul Dinman's machine, who founded GRI https://books.google.com/books?id=1jTUBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA52&lpg=PA52&dq=gri+computer+saul&source=bl&ots=Qqd_woK8KO&sig=Ii8W_8Stxwuo2kHY4uJU6DJXYzc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiF0NeLoKLeAhWTCjQIHbIFB84Q6AEwAHoECAYQAQ#v=onepage&q=gri%20computer%20saul&f=false Arrays of single-bit processors have been tried. CHM has one, I'm blanking on the company name. We had one in Apple ATG. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 25 13:48:05 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 11:48:05 -0700 Subject: modern stuff In-Reply-To: References: <20181024130116.B11F718C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <78b749e3-0df3-dcfb-3def-b50bbaa24f2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <6c460aa6-35ba-e739-00b8-d8758ce78bc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <89D9E459-BAF3-409C-89FA-8FCD782D0B06@comcast.net> <90302436-c038-ff79-bae7-ea643939c4fc@jetnet.ab.ca> <34e1f336-7626-c127-5051-078f257b0764@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 10/25/18 11:06 AM, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: > Obviously, he returned to academia before the project collapsed in a heap, > and he might have had to scramble and compete with other departing CS PhDs > (who would also have hung around too long). Many would probably be looking > at another job where microprocessor microcode, assembler, linker, compiler, > and system-level library development experience would have been highly > desirable, and perhaps where the EEs were more reasonable. Plus, he didn't > have to put "Served on what became the sunken shipwreck iAPX 432" on his > resume/CV. That's because it wasn't yet at the Sixth Phase in the Six > Phases of a Project, "Punishment of the Innocent, and Rewards for the > Non-Participants". Sigh, I remember the 432 being talked up by "Fast Eddie" our Intel inside sales guy. "Micro mainframe" will be the best thing since the bread knife. We began to get an inkling of trouble when we requested ballpark estimates of the cost of the various chips (the 432 is not a single chip microcomputer--the basic family, as I recall was no less than three (43201, 43202 and 43203) QIP chips. The cost for the set given to us in the range of 4 figures. As time went on, Eddie talked less and less about this and then went completely silent--his response was basically "you don't want to know". I don't recall if this was before or after performance benchmark numbers started to appear. While this was a failure on a spectacular level, it was by no means the only misstep by Intel. The i860 RISC CPU at one time was even being endorsed by BillG as a possible personal computer basis. I think that the follow-on, the i960 was somewhat successful. One thing you need in this business is a good back-of-the-neck sense. Sometime in the late 1970s, I was invited up to Beaverton by Tek to interview for the position of project manager for their new color graphics display terminal. I don't recall many technical details--it was a one-day visit. Tek was enthusiastic about getting me on board and had even scheduled the movers. About 4 days before they were set to arrive, I called off the offer--I'd had a really terrible dream about the project and couldn't shake the cold sweats. It turned out that the project came in late and way above estimates for Tek, with layoffs resulting. A bullet dodged by a dream. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 25 13:49:47 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 11:49:47 -0700 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <1f369967-6355-20f7-5eec-6ee6f41cbbb1@bitsavers.org> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD0967D.3090206@pico-systems.com> <7a49ba5b-39ed-ec7c-70e3-70069538a05f@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD131EA.4060607@pico-systems.com> <28676f0b-8caa-b656-f3ee-e4d0c2597319@jetnet.ab.ca> <4b2c0fd0-ab3d-55e6-907d-f199a20e1f17@sydex.com> <1f369967-6355-20f7-5eec-6ee6f41cbbb1@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <507876b9-18d4-5058-73e1-2b33f097c47a@sydex.com> On 10/25/18 11:33 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 10/25/18 10:45 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> Didn't at least one of the more popular MPU designs employ a serial ALU? >> TMS9900? > > You've mentioned this a couple of times. > > Are you confusing this with the serial CRU I/O scheme TI computers used? > I double-checked and the 960,980 and 990 minicomputers are all 16 bit parallel machines. > > The 9980/1 and 9995 had an 8 bit memory bus but internally are 16. > > I double-checked, and the TMS9900 has a 16 bit ALU (page 6 in > TMS_9900_Microprocessor_Data_Manual_May76.pdf on bitsavers) Dunno, the mind is foggy on this detail, since I never played with the beast. But it seems to me that there was at least one "too slow" MPU out there in production at some point. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 25 13:53:54 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 11:53:54 -0700 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <507876b9-18d4-5058-73e1-2b33f097c47a@sydex.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD0967D.3090206@pico-systems.com> <7a49ba5b-39ed-ec7c-70e3-70069538a05f@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD131EA.4060607@pico-systems.com> <28676f0b-8caa-b656-f3ee-e4d0c2597319@jetnet.ab.ca> <4b2c0fd0-ab3d-55e6-907d-f199a20e1f17@sydex.com> <1f369967-6355-20f7-5eec-6ee6f41cbbb1@bitsavers.org> <507876b9-18d4-5058-73e1-2b33f097c47a@sydex.com> Message-ID: <332956c6-9084-09b4-78a9-f83cf0c0dd75@bitsavers.org> On 10/25/18 11:49 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Dunno, the mind is foggy on this detail, since I never played with the > beast. But it seems to me that there was at least one "too slow" MPU > out there in production at some point. There is the moto MC14500 http://bitsavers.org/components/motorola/14500/MC14500B_Industrial_Control_Unit_Handbook_1977.pdf From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 25 14:01:40 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 12:01:40 -0700 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <332956c6-9084-09b4-78a9-f83cf0c0dd75@bitsavers.org> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD0967D.3090206@pico-systems.com> <7a49ba5b-39ed-ec7c-70e3-70069538a05f@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD131EA.4060607@pico-systems.com> <28676f0b-8caa-b656-f3ee-e4d0c2597319@jetnet.ab.ca> <4b2c0fd0-ab3d-55e6-907d-f199a20e1f17@sydex.com> <1f369967-6355-20f7-5eec-6ee6f41cbbb1@bitsavers.org> <507876b9-18d4-5058-73e1-2b33f097c47a@sydex.com> <332956c6-9084-09b4-78a9-f83cf0c0dd75@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 10/25/18 11:53 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > There is the moto MC14500 > > http://bitsavers.org/components/motorola/14500/MC14500B_Industrial_Control_Unit_Handbook_1977.pdf No, not the ICU--it'd be a real stretch calling it a computer. It'll come to me at some point. --Chuck From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Oct 25 14:02:46 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 12:02:46 -0700 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD0967D.3090206@pico-systems.com> <7a49ba5b-39ed-ec7c-70e3-70069538a05f@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD131EA.4060607@pico-systems.com> <28676f0b-8caa-b656-f3ee-e4d0c2597319@jetnet.ab.ca> <4b2c0fd0-ab3d-55e6-907d-f199a20e1f17@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On Oct 25, 2018, at 11:48 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > >> On 10/25/18 11:40 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> >> >>> On Oct 25, 2018, at 1:45 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> On this subject, is there no interest in serial ALU designs? At one >>> time, if you wanted a low-cast implementation, that was the way to do >>> it. Also gives you a leg up on variable word-length designs. >>> >>> Didn't at least one of the more popular MPU designs employ a serial ALU? >>> TMS9900? >> >> Serial ALU as a cost saver for low end makes sense in discrete transistor or early SSI machines, like the PDP-8/L. > > PDP-8/S > Saul Dinman's machine, who founded GRI > > https://books.google.com/books?id=1jTUBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA52&lpg=PA52&dq=gri+computer+saul&source=bl&ots=Qqd_woK8KO&sig=Ii8W_8Stxwuo2kHY4uJU6DJXYzc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiF0NeLoKLeAhWTCjQIHbIFB84Q6AEwAHoECAYQAQ#v=onepage&q=gri%20computer%20saul&f=false > > > Arrays of single-bit processors have been tried. > CHM has one, I'm blanking on the company name. > We had one in Apple ATG. > You might be thinking of the AMT DAP, which used arrays of 1-bit processors. (32x32 or 64x64). 10mhz each. I have a 610, it is the most interesting SCSI peripheral I own... - Josh From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 25 14:03:24 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 12:03:24 -0700 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD0967D.3090206@pico-systems.com> <7a49ba5b-39ed-ec7c-70e3-70069538a05f@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD131EA.4060607@pico-systems.com> <28676f0b-8caa-b656-f3ee-e4d0c2597319@jetnet.ab.ca> <4b2c0fd0-ab3d-55e6-907d-f199a20e1f17@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 10/25/18 11:48 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Arrays of single-bit processors have been tried. > CHM has one, I'm blanking on the company name. > We had one in Apple ATG. > Active Memory Technology DAP-500 From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 25 14:04:51 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 12:04:51 -0700 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD0967D.3090206@pico-systems.com> <7a49ba5b-39ed-ec7c-70e3-70069538a05f@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD131EA.4060607@pico-systems.com> <28676f0b-8caa-b656-f3ee-e4d0c2597319@jetnet.ab.ca> <4b2c0fd0-ab3d-55e6-907d-f199a20e1f17@sydex.com> Message-ID: <4cb66865-976f-9af7-a085-721033a2b91b@bitsavers.org> On 10/25/18 12:02 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > You might be thinking of the AMT DAP, which used arrays of 1-bit processors. yup. I know we have one, just can't find it in the CHM catalog I have some docs on bitsavers From allisonportable at gmail.com Thu Oct 25 14:15:55 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 15:15:55 -0400 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <4b2c0fd0-ab3d-55e6-907d-f199a20e1f17@sydex.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD0967D.3090206@pico-systems.com> <7a49ba5b-39ed-ec7c-70e3-70069538a05f@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD131EA.4060607@pico-systems.com> <28676f0b-8caa-b656-f3ee-e4d0c2597319@jetnet.ab.ca> <4b2c0fd0-ab3d-55e6-907d-f199a20e1f17@sydex.com> Message-ID: <747188d8-b4ae-ee9b-9e2f-3daa91a56626@gmail.com> On 10/25/2018 01:45 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On this subject, is there no interest in serial ALU designs? At one > time, if you wanted a low-cast implementation, that was the way to do > it. Also gives you a leg up on variable word-length designs. > > > Didn't at least one of the more popular MPU designs employ a serial ALU? > TMS9900? > > --Chuck No, 9900 was byte wide. The 1802 is claimed to be serial. Allison From allisonportable at gmail.com Thu Oct 25 14:24:51 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 15:24:51 -0400 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <28676f0b-8caa-b656-f3ee-e4d0c2597319@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD0967D.3090206@pico-systems.com> <7a49ba5b-39ed-ec7c-70e3-70069538a05f@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD131EA.4060607@pico-systems.com> <28676f0b-8caa-b656-f3ee-e4d0c2597319@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 10/25/2018 01:28 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 10/24/2018 9:00 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >> On 10/24/2018 01:11 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >>> On 10/24/2018 10:31 AM, Marc Howard via cctalk wrote: >>>> You know that since you mentioned possibly using CMOS 22V10's why >>>> not just >>>> build a board around AMD 29XX bit slice parts.? They actually predate >>>> 22V10's by quite a bit and you can pretty much implement what every >>>> you >>>> want to without rewiring. >>>> >>>> Marc >>> >>> * LOW POWER and REPROGRAMABLE * reglar 22V10's are 100 ma per chip, >>> and I can buy them online. I have 5 2901's but I can only find them >>> on ebay now. If I design a register based machine I have them, other >>> wise >>> TTL is better for odd sized word lengths. >>> Ben. >>> >>> >>> >> Well, I built a 2903 + 2910 32-bit microcoded machine in 1982 or so.? >> See >> http://pico-systems.com/stories/1982.html >> for gory details.? But, today, it would make WAY more sense to do it >> with FPGAs.? Want to try an experiment?? Don't get out the wire-wrap >> gun or soldering iron, make a copy of the FPGA files and edit away. >> If it doesn't work, you don't have to undo the wiring changes! Also, >> the FPGA version might be as much as 10 times faster. > > I just orderd 4 2901's off ebay, So I do plan to build something up to > 32 bits. Likely make a fortune off my stockpile of 2901s.? Building machine from the earth up is not that hard, software to make them useful is a big deal. > I have a DE1 FPGA setup for proto typing, but free pcb board layout > programs all seem to suck for me. There is nothing for doing things > like switches or card edge foot prints, but a gizzion and one surface > mount that common people never use. > The problem is you need to hunt down the libraries or use a tool that has libraries.? Kicad and Eagle are work for me. Once you have libraries that have those doing it become easy.? IF not draw them! ? Allison > > >> Jon >> > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 25 14:25:53 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 12:25:53 -0700 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <4cb66865-976f-9af7-a085-721033a2b91b@bitsavers.org> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD0967D.3090206@pico-systems.com> <7a49ba5b-39ed-ec7c-70e3-70069538a05f@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD131EA.4060607@pico-systems.com> <28676f0b-8caa-b656-f3ee-e4d0c2597319@jetnet.ab.ca> <4b2c0fd0-ab3d-55e6-907d-f199a20e1f17@sydex.com> <4cb66865-976f-9af7-a085-721033a2b91b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <0702c4ca-4646-be47-7dd2-f0db74d1f1d7@sydex.com> On 10/25/18 12:04 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 10/25/18 12:02 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> You might be thinking of the AMT DAP, which used arrays of 1-bit processors. > > yup. > > I know we have one, just can't find it in the CHM catalog > I have some docs on bitsavers Danny Hillis' CM-1 also used lots of 1-bit processors. --Chuck From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Oct 25 14:28:00 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 15:28:00 -0400 Subject: Scan of Micro Peripherals Inc MPI 91/92 Product Manual Avail? In-Reply-To: References: <36dcfd2b-5eaf-1b39-6151-646748176069@jwsss.com> <668e456f-bbf3-5f85-6d4a-2f6d5587ba64@bitsavers.org> <7af73298-68f2-4ce1-962e-e68d65dae2c6@sydex.com> Message-ID: Hi - I finished the scan of the MPI 91/92. I did it at Kinkos and it cost me $54, and wow that's expensive. I should have asked before I dropped off the manual. I kind of assumed it'd be more like $20. I don't have an easy way to scan a plastic spiral-bound two sided document with pull out schematics unless I do each page by hand. If anyone wants the file, it's real nice and suitable for archive.org, and includes schematics https://www.vintagecomputer.net/MPI/ So that brings me to the question - Should I buy a nice scanner that handles two sided and schematic prints?...I have so many things more I could scan if I had something cost effective. That's the last time I do the Kinkos thing. I prefer to do this kind of work on my own. Also of note I just finished the RCA COSMAC Microkit manual MPM 103, obtained from the Hagley Museum archives in Wilminton, Delaware. They have a treasure trove there. It's impossible to assemble the Microkit without the manual, each card has a specific slot in the backplane. This is a computer made with an early version of the two-chip 1801 CPU card, before it was called "1801". More info is on my web site. So far I have the current loop operating but the terminal card appears to be on the fritz or altered for some other purpose that originally designed. I cannot yet interact with a teletype. The COSMAC Microkit is a complete microcomputer that pre-dates by a month or two the MITS Altair. A worthy project. Next - a nice ROHM 1601 sales brochure. I try to scan only what appears to not already be available on the better-known archiving sites. Bill vintagecomputer.net/contact.cfm On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 4:32 PM Bill Degnan wrote: > just an update, I have not forgotten this task, I just need to find time > to get to a two-sided printer. I really need to get one for my self with > big copy bay to handle schematics. That would really accelerate my archive > work > b > > On Sat, Oct 6, 2018 at 1:55 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> One last tidbit on the Micropolis floppy drives--the early drives (1014, >> etc.) used a body/chassis made of steel plate. The later drives (1115) >> used cast body parts. >> >> It's also worth observing that the leadscrew positioner is probably the >> best, as it's the dominant technology in 135 tpi 3.5" drives. >> >> --Chuck >> > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 25 14:31:36 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 12:31:36 -0700 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <747188d8-b4ae-ee9b-9e2f-3daa91a56626@gmail.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD0967D.3090206@pico-systems.com> <7a49ba5b-39ed-ec7c-70e3-70069538a05f@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD131EA.4060607@pico-systems.com> <28676f0b-8caa-b656-f3ee-e4d0c2597319@jetnet.ab.ca> <4b2c0fd0-ab3d-55e6-907d-f199a20e1f17@sydex.com> <747188d8-b4ae-ee9b-9e2f-3daa91a56626@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10/25/18 12:15 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: > The 1802 is claimed to be serial. Ah, that was it. Ultra-low power (for the time) CMOS. Simple instruction set. Thanks, Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Oct 25 16:32:18 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 15:32:18 -0600 Subject: modern stuff In-Reply-To: References: <20181024130116.B11F718C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <78b749e3-0df3-dcfb-3def-b50bbaa24f2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <6c460aa6-35ba-e739-00b8-d8758ce78bc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <89D9E459-BAF3-409C-89FA-8FCD782D0B06@comcast.net> <90302436-c038-ff79-bae7-ea643939c4fc@jetnet.ab.ca> <34e1f336-7626-c127-5051-078f257b0764@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 12:48 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > (the 432 is not a single chip > microcomputer--the basic family, as I recall was no less than three > (43201, 43202 and 43203) QIP chips. The General Data Processor (GDP) was split between two chips, the 43201 and 43202. It is the real "processor" of the 432 system. The Interface Processor (IP), is a single chip, the 43203. It is used with a conventional microprocessor, typically an 8086, known as the Attached Processor (AP), An iAPX 432 system could potentially contain up to 255 processors in total, with an arbitrary mix of GDPs and IPs. You need at least one GDP. A system to run the iMAX 432 operating system generally needed two IPs. > The cost for the set given to us in > the range of 4 figures. > The chips weren't actually that expensive; they were roughly $150 each for the 7 MHz speed grade. The board- and system-level products were quite expensive. The i860 RISC CPU at one time was even being > endorsed by BillG as a possible personal computer basis. I think that > the follow-on, the i960 was somewhat successful. > Note that the i960 was totally unrelated to the i860. The i960 is actually a follow-on to the iAPX 432. The 432 led to the BiiN joint venture with Siemens. The BiiN processor was a RISC but with 33-bit memory words containing a tag bit to distinguish data from capabilities, to allow the 432-style object architecture with a RISC base. BiiN was unsuccessful, so Intel disabled the tag bit of the processor and called it the i960. A later version of the i960 had the tag bit enabled. From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Oct 25 16:37:12 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 15:37:12 -0600 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <4b2c0fd0-ab3d-55e6-907d-f199a20e1f17@sydex.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD0967D.3090206@pico-systems.com> <7a49ba5b-39ed-ec7c-70e3-70069538a05f@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD131EA.4060607@pico-systems.com> <28676f0b-8caa-b656-f3ee-e4d0c2597319@jetnet.ab.ca> <4b2c0fd0-ab3d-55e6-907d-f199a20e1f17@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 11:45 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Didn't at least one of the more popular MPU designs employ a serial ALU? > TMS9900? > I don't think the TI TMS9900 was bit-serial internally, but the RCA CDP1802 and National Semiconductor SC/MP (ISP-8A/500) and SC/MP II (ISP-8A/600) were. From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Oct 25 18:00:29 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 17:00:29 -0600 Subject: Scan of Micro Peripherals Inc MPI 91/92 Product Manual Avail? In-Reply-To: References: <36dcfd2b-5eaf-1b39-6151-646748176069@jwsss.com> <668e456f-bbf3-5f85-6d4a-2f6d5587ba64@bitsavers.org> <7af73298-68f2-4ce1-962e-e68d65dae2c6@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 1:28 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > So that brings me to the question - Should I buy a nice scanner that > handles two sided and schematic prints?...I have so many things more I > could scan if I had something cost effective. That's the last time I do > the Kinkos thing. I prefer to do this kind of work on my own. > I occasionally have to scan B-size (11x17 inch) drawings, and the cheapest scanner I know of that can do that is the HP OfficeJet Pro 7740 all-in-one, which is also a B-size inkjet printer. It costs about $250 retail, but can sometimes be found for $200. The scanner only does a single side, so you have to flip the page over manuall. There is a sheet feeder for A-size and similar only; for B-size you have to use it as a flatbed. If you need a sheet-fed duplex scanner for B-size, expect to spend a pretty good chunk of change even for a used one. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 25 18:16:22 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 16:16:22 -0700 Subject: Scan of Micro Peripherals Inc MPI 91/92 Product Manual Avail? In-Reply-To: References: <668e456f-bbf3-5f85-6d4a-2f6d5587ba64@bitsavers.org> <7af73298-68f2-4ce1-962e-e68d65dae2c6@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 10/25/18 4:00 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > If you need a sheet-fed duplex scanner for B-size, expect to spend a pretty > good chunk of change even for a used one. > I've been through several million pages with my Panasonic KV-3065CW duplex tabloid color scanner They can be found used for <$500 now https://www.ebay.com/itm/292774459578 From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 25 18:18:25 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 16:18:25 -0700 Subject: Scan of Micro Peripherals Inc MPI 91/92 Product Manual Avail? In-Reply-To: References: <668e456f-bbf3-5f85-6d4a-2f6d5587ba64@bitsavers.org> <7af73298-68f2-4ce1-962e-e68d65dae2c6@sydex.com> Message-ID: <220bf8b1-e261-bcc7-772b-e90e12b6e047@bitsavers.org> On 10/25/18 4:16 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 10/25/18 4:00 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > >> If you need a sheet-fed duplex scanner for B-size, expect to spend a pretty >> good chunk of change even for a used one. >> > > I've been through several million pages with my Panasonic KV-3065CW > duplex tabloid color scanner > > They can be found used for <$500 now > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/292774459578 > They also can scan LONG drawings (up to 100") From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Thu Oct 25 21:17:12 2018 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 22:17:12 -0400 Subject: modern stuff In-Reply-To: References: <20181024130116.B11F718C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <78b749e3-0df3-dcfb-3def-b50bbaa24f2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <6c460aa6-35ba-e739-00b8-d8758ce78bc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <89D9E459-BAF3-409C-89FA-8FCD782D0B06@comcast.net> <90302436-c038-ff79-bae7-ea643939c4fc@jetnet.ab.ca> <34e1f336-7626-c127-5051-078f257b0764@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181025182307.8CC5BEE02F1@proxy.email-ssl.com.br> Message-ID: Tangent: I have a large bin of perhaps a hundred working (last checked circa 2002) single board computers in the warehouse (Western Pennsylvania) with i960 cpus if anyone's interested. They were the Switch Control Processors from FORE Systems ASX200 switches, quite fully functional little computers and all self-sufficient on one board. When we ported to x86, the poor i960 ones became unwanted extremely rapidly; hence the surplus. Never had the heart to remand them to the skip. There's Serial, Ethernet, 7 segment display array, flash, RAM, clock, etc. and a VME bus interface. Guys used to hook them naked to a couple wires for power source and run them in their office window to scroll messages. Would make for a swell massively, if lethargically, parallel compute project. Would enthusiastically trade for pdp11 stuff, or donate to interesting project even if you have nothing to offer. thx jake On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 6:16 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 10/25/18 11:23 AM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. via cctalk wrote: > > > Didn't at least part of the team continue the project as the BiiN / > > 960MX? > > Yes. > Eric Smith can explain the whole history if he chooses to. > > Here is what he has on line for the 432 > http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/intel/iapx432/ > > > > From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Oct 25 21:27:12 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 21:27:12 -0500 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD0967D.3090206@pico-systems.com> <7a49ba5b-39ed-ec7c-70e3-70069538a05f@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD131EA.4060607@pico-systems.com> <28676f0b-8caa-b656-f3ee-e4d0c2597319@jetnet.ab.ca> <4b2c0fd0-ab3d-55e6-907d-f199a20e1f17@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5BD27B80.806@pico-systems.com> On 10/25/2018 01:40 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Oct 25, 2018, at 1:45 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> >> On this subject, is there no interest in serial ALU designs? At one >> time, if you wanted a low-cast implementation, that was the way to do >> it. Also gives you a leg up on variable word-length designs. >> >> Didn't at least one of the more popular MPU designs employ a serial ALU? >> TMS9900? > Serial ALU as a cost saver for low end makes sense in discrete transistor or early SSI machines, like the PDP-8/L. It's hard to see how it would be useful in MPUs, given that transistors are so much cheaper there. > It was the PDP-8/S (not 8/L) that had the serial ALU. The 8S was a discrete transistor machine, the 8/L used integrated circuits. I think the core on the 8/S was also really slow, like 6-8 us cycle time, so having the CPU take its time made little difference. Jon From allisonportable at gmail.com Thu Oct 25 21:38:22 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 22:38:22 -0400 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD0967D.3090206@pico-systems.com> <7a49ba5b-39ed-ec7c-70e3-70069538a05f@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD131EA.4060607@pico-systems.com> <28676f0b-8caa-b656-f3ee-e4d0c2597319@jetnet.ab.ca> <4b2c0fd0-ab3d-55e6-907d-f199a20e1f17@sydex.com> Message-ID: <586b7860-6ef3-71ec-5cdc-51fac6648c50@gmail.com> On 10/25/2018 05:37 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 11:45 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Didn't at least one of the more popular MPU designs employ a serial ALU? >> TMS9900? >> > I don't think the TI TMS9900 was bit-serial internally, but the RCA CDP1802 No it the 9900 definitely is not.? The 9900 does have that odd serial bit addressed CRU interface. The 1802 has been verified has a serial ALU. > and National Semiconductor SC/MP (ISP-8A/500) and SC/MP II (ISP-8A/600) > were. I have no information that the SC/MP or SC/MP II more so are internally serial. The do have a serial register to the outside.. There are very few CPUs that had serial insides.? Allison From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Oct 25 21:46:28 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 21:46:28 -0500 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD0967D.3090206@pico-systems.com> <7a49ba5b-39ed-ec7c-70e3-70069538a05f@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD131EA.4060607@pico-systems.com> <28676f0b-8caa-b656-f3ee-e4d0c2597319@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5BD28004.8090109@pico-systems.com> On 10/25/2018 02:24 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: > Likely make a fortune off my stockpile of 2901s. Building > machine from the earth up is not that hard, software to > make them useful is a big deal. Yes, and that's where my 32-bit 2903 project started to bog down. I knew some people, OS security was a total joke, so I COULD have just stolen OS 360 MVT, but REALLY, who would do that to themselves? I had a few more bits of logic to wire in, to make a 256-way branch from the OP-code field of the instruction register to decode instructions, and from the register fields of the instruction register to OR into the register address. Then, I had to write the microcode. I'd done some small test bits of microcode, including the multiply, and that worked. (IIRC, the 2903 has an extra shift register, so it can do the multiply step in one CPU cycle, the 2901 takes 2.) Well, after that, I had a big decision to make. Should the memory be on the system bus, like PDP-11 and VAX, or part of the CPU, like IBM-360 and PDP-10? Then, I had to get memory wired to the bit slice system, and then build peripheral controllers. I had a very rough concept scratched up, about 30 chips to make a microcoded 16-bit machine, using fast EPROMS for the control store. A SCSI interface would be pretty trivial, but a read-after-write mag tape control and an 8-channel serial multiplexer would be much more complicated project. THEN, the big stuff would come, I'd need an OS and language compilers. I could probably whip up a version of CP/M with hierarchical directories and time/date stamps, and maybe a simple editor, but the WHOLE REASON for this project was to move up to modern high-level languages. And, I had badly underestimated how difficult that might become. One scheme might be to start with my CP/M-like OS, and build a wrapper program that would allow me to run OS-360 compilers and linkers with whatever object libraries they needed, and then use them to compile something more to my liking like Pascal. But, it was all looking like a LOT of work. So, I managed to clone a Nat. Semi 32016 system and got it running, but it was amazingly slow. I suspect that my kluged memory interface was not fully optimal, but even the original that I copied was pretty slow. Then, I spent BIG BUCKS to buy a uVAX-II CPU board from a broker, and was finally in HOG HEAVEN! It was certainly fast, almost the speed of the VAX-780's I used at work, and ALL MINE! So, that's my story. Jon From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Oct 25 23:35:30 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 21:35:30 -0700 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <4cb66865-976f-9af7-a085-721033a2b91b@bitsavers.org> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD0967D.3090206@pico-systems.com> <7a49ba5b-39ed-ec7c-70e3-70069538a05f@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD131EA.4060607@pico-systems.com> <28676f0b-8caa-b656-f3ee-e4d0c2597319@jetnet.ab.ca> <4b2c0fd0-ab3d-55e6-907d-f199a20e1f17@sydex.com> <4cb66865-976f-9af7-a085-721033a2b91b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 9:01 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 10/25/18 12:02 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > You might be thinking of the AMT DAP, which used arrays of 1-bit > processors. > > yup. > > I know we have one, just can't find it in the CHM catalog > I have some docs on bitsavers > > > Cool -- I have a pile of software that came with mine, the tapes images are here: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/dap/ in case anyone else has one of these. - Josh From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Thu Oct 25 13:00:17 2018 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 13:00:17 -0500 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <4b2c0fd0-ab3d-55e6-907d-f199a20e1f17@sydex.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD0967D.3090206@pico-systems.com> <7a49ba5b-39ed-ec7c-70e3-70069538a05f@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD131EA.4060607@pico-systems.com> <28676f0b-8caa-b656-f3ee-e4d0c2597319@jetnet.ab.ca> <4b2c0fd0-ab3d-55e6-907d-f199a20e1f17@sydex.com> Message-ID: <17eb38e6-fdc3-c3f3-e5f9-c66e45e96b65@figureeightbrewing.com> On 10/25/18 12:45 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On this subject, is there no interest in serial ALU designs? At one > time, if you wanted a low-cast implementation, that was the way to do > it. Also gives you a leg up on variable word-length designs. > > > Didn't at least one of the more popular MPU designs employ a serial ALU? > TMS9900? > > --Chuck > Let's not forget the PDP8S. From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Thu Oct 25 21:30:24 2018 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 22:30:24 -0400 Subject: trouble imaging badblocks on rl02 Message-ID: Has anyone modified Warren's VTServer to ignore errors (or at least keep trying upon encountering them)? I'm trying to image some rl02s I found and am getting flack on some tracks, killing the whole recovery process. 200K received wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwrl(0,0,0) err cy=14, hd=0, sc=28, rlcs=104275, rlmp=4 Copying done. Either reset the system, or hit to exit the standalone program. Or is there a better way? thx jake From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Oct 26 07:55:49 2018 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2018 08:55:49 -0400 Subject: modern stuff In-Reply-To: References: <20181024130116.B11F718C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <78b749e3-0df3-dcfb-3def-b50bbaa24f2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <6c460aa6-35ba-e739-00b8-d8758ce78bc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <89D9E459-BAF3-409C-89FA-8FCD782D0B06@comcast.net> <90302436-c038-ff79-bae7-ea643939c4fc@jetnet.ab.ca> <34e1f336-7626-c127-5051-078f257b0764@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <741bab3a-a76b-a0d0-8c17-07192e38e4b5@e-bbes.com> On 2018-10-25 14:48, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > While this was a failure on a spectacular level, it was by no means the > only misstep by Intel. The i860 RISC CPU at one time was even being > endorsed by BillG as a possible personal computer basis. the i860 found at least a little niche on graphics boards, so somehow not a complete failure ;-) From allisonportable at gmail.com Fri Oct 26 11:33:28 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2018 12:33:28 -0400 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <5BD28004.8090109@pico-systems.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <10d8e53c-6091-76ca-4c47-7bdf2d81ff2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <20181023120218.xx5mts7qcemyv7tm@mooli.org.uk> <713f0a81-85d9-fc72-56b7-176b30882b0d@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD0967D.3090206@pico-systems.com> <7a49ba5b-39ed-ec7c-70e3-70069538a05f@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD131EA.4060607@pico-systems.com> <28676f0b-8caa-b656-f3ee-e4d0c2597319@jetnet.ab.ca> <5BD28004.8090109@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 10/25/2018 10:46 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 10/25/2018 02:24 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: >> Likely make a fortune off my stockpile of 2901s. Building machine >> from the earth up is not that hard, software to make them useful is a >> big deal. > Yes, and that's where my 32-bit 2903 project started to bog down.? I > knew some people, OS security was a total joke, so I COULD have just > stolen OS 360 MVT, but REALLY, who would do that to themselves? > I had a few more bits of logic to wire in, to make a 256-way branch > from the OP-code field of the instruction register to decode > instructions, and from the register fields of the instruction register > to OR into the register address.? Then, I had to write the microcode.? > I'd done some small test bits of microcode, including the multiply, > and that worked.? (IIRC, the 2903 has an extra shift register, so it > can do the multiply step in one CPU cycle, the 2901 takes 2.) > I come from the dark ages first work project was 8008 based, when it was new. My first stab was 74181 ALU based and was trying to do z80 faster than 4mhz... no hope there and feature creep made it not z80.? I worked a little monitor to make it useful but it gave me the core understanding of CPU and how they work.?? It was fun developing and deciding I could change an instruction to make coding easier. I also did a simple machine based on a simplification of the basic microcontroller of the RX01. It had two instructions Jump CC and DO xxxx? It was more than enough to be a Harvard machine programmed at the microcode level. I did those to bridge the college simple logic and sequential circuits and their jump to programing a computer with the bit in the middle missing. > Well, after that, I had a big decision to make.? Should the memory be > on the system bus, like PDP-11 and VAX, or part of the CPU, like > IBM-360 and PDP-10?? Then, I had to get memory wired to the bit slice > system, and then build peripheral controllers.? I had a very rough > concept scratched up, about 30 chips to make a microcoded 16-bit > machine, using fast EPROMS for the control store.? A SCSI interface > would be pretty trivial, but a read-after-write mag tape control and > an 8-channel serial multiplexer would be much more complicated > project.? THEN, the big stuff would come, I'd need an OS and language > compilers.? I could probably whip up a version of CP/M with > hierarchical directories and time/date stamps, and maybe a simple > editor, but the WHOLE REASON for this project was to move up to modern > high-level languages.? And, I had badly underestimated how difficult > that might become.? One scheme might be to start with my CP/M-like OS, > and build a wrapper program that would allow me to run OS-360 > compilers and linkers with whatever object libraries they needed, and > then use them to compile something more to my liking like Pascal.?? > But, it was all looking like a LOT of work. > If I ever do another ground up machine its likely to be a OIS, a move machine.? They are simple and can be low parts.? They are the RISC of the RISC. As to chip based the list is [6100, 6120, 9900, 8080, 8085, 8086, z80, 1802, SC/MP, SC/MPII-8073, 6800, 6809, 6502, T-11] as they say long.?? Some I still use namely 8039,? 8085, z80, and 1802 and on occasion the 6100 (cmos pdp8).? with older CPUs and newer memory the resulting machines are interesting and often fast for their type.? Things like large megabyte Flash makes cp/m without physical disk remarkably fast (large flash as disk) and simple. I still run several CP/M machines (S100 and single board plus Kaypro 4/84++) and the PDP11 is mostly running RT11 but on occasion I load up V6 Unix RL02 pack.? The vaxs are a small (10way LAVC) mostly running VMS5.4H. > So, I managed to clone a Nat. Semi 32016 system and got it running, > but it was amazingly slow. > I suspect that my kluged memory interface was not fully optimal, but > even the original that I copied was pretty slow.? Then, I spent BIG > BUCKS to buy a uVAX-II CPU board from a broker, and was finally in HOG > HEAVEN!? It was certainly fast, almost the speed of the VAX-780's I > used at work, and ALL MINE! > I have the luxury of being there and leading edge for Altair by time 79 rolled around I was PDP11 and would later work in DEC engineering.? By the late 80s I had a nice PDP11/23 of my own and not long after a collection of VAX systems that I have to this day.? To this day VMS is the OS in my mind though Unix V6, V7(PDP11) and Ultrix(VAX) are around fro the DEC hardware and Linux on the desktop. My idea of doing stuff is a Rpi-3B running a copy of linux on batteries as a full boat laptop machine. The Rpi may not be lightning in a bottle but its posting this email!?? What to I do for fun 8039, PIC or Atmega328P for embedded projects.? One of these days a laptop running RT11 on one of the T-11s (PDP-11 chip) I have would be a eye catcher, I'll have to make the terminal/screen from a Atmega as hardware for modern LCDs of any sizes and resolution (aka 80x24) needs a lot of hardware to do that. > So, that's my story. > Mine is at best a few snapshots in time. Allison > Jon From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Oct 26 11:34:28 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2018 16:34:28 +0000 Subject: TRS-80 Model I modification Message-ID: Does anyone have a description of how to put 48K of memory in the TRS-80 Model I without using an Expansion Interface?? I seem to remember there being some published back in the old days but can't find anything on the web.? I think it was done with 4164's and a few pieces of wire wrap wire to jumper the missing address lines. bill From pete at pski.net Fri Oct 26 13:07:45 2018 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2018 14:07:45 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 Model I modification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54131B73-21A5-4B90-94F1-B6C12969425F@pski.net> > On Oct 26, 2018, at 12:34 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > Does anyone have a description of how to put 48K of memory in > the TRS-80 Model I without using an Expansion Interface? I seem > to remember there being some published back in the old days > but can't find anything on the web. I think it was done with 4164's > and a few pieces of wire wrap wire to jumper the missing address > lines. TRS8BIT Vol 7 Issue 4 Page 32 http://www.fabsitesuk.com/tandy/trs8bit_year07.pdf From db at db.net Fri Oct 26 13:33:43 2018 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2018 14:33:43 -0400 Subject: DAT tapes anyone? Message-ID: <20181026183343.GA24846@night.db.net> I rescued a pile of DAT and a drive from scrap locally. I have no use for it. I'd rather not ship :-( but I am two hours drive from Montreal 4.5-5 hours from Toronto here in Ottawa. Anyone want this box? Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://artemis.db.net/~db From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Oct 26 14:22:38 2018 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2018 15:22:38 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 screws In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One the original PDP-8 ("Straight 8"), the front panel has two aluminum strips on the sides, one on the left and one on the right. Each should have a pair of flathead countersunk screws, likwly Phillips head. Can someone tell me the exact specs, basically thread, length, head, and material of the screws? Thank you. -- Will From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Oct 26 15:09:31 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2018 15:09:31 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 screws In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: should be a standard rack screw i would think On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 2:22 PM William Donzelli via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > One the original PDP-8 ("Straight 8"), the front panel has two aluminum > strips on the sides, one on the left and one on the right. Each should have > a pair of flathead countersunk screws, likwly Phillips head. > > Can someone tell me the exact specs, basically thread, length, head, and > material of the screws? > > Thank you. > > -- > Will > From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 26 15:26:56 2018 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2018 20:26:56 +0000 Subject: modern stuff - i860 In-Reply-To: <741bab3a-a76b-a0d0-8c17-07192e38e4b5@e-bbes.com> References: <20181024130116.B11F718C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <78b749e3-0df3-dcfb-3def-b50bbaa24f2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <6c460aa6-35ba-e739-00b8-d8758ce78bc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <89D9E459-BAF3-409C-89FA-8FCD782D0B06@comcast.net> <90302436-c038-ff79-bae7-ea643939c4fc@jetnet.ab.ca> <34e1f336-7626-c127-5051-078f257b0764@jetnet.ab.ca> , <741bab3a-a76b-a0d0-8c17-07192e38e4b5@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: Two design wins I remember: TrueVision, the AT&T computer graphics people that did the TARGA video boards had software to back the board sales up, a 3D animation package TOPAS. Beautiful, but dog slow even on the fastest 25MHz PCs at the time, so they had ported it to the i860 as an add in card. I think render frame rates went from minutes to a few seconds. I used TOPAS under DOSBox on a current PC, and it screams. Its up on Vetusware if your interested. The famous graphic supercomputer hardware war, Ardent / Stellar, the later merge and purchase by Kubota had two applications, Dore' and Advanced Visualization System, AVS. These impressive machines were canned, and Kubota came out with a i860 desktop for graphics. I remember the introduction in Houston, and the 3D geophysicists and petro exploration guys were all over it. the graphics demos and computation capability was amazing. I never knew what happened to that workstation. ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of emanuel stiebler via cctalk Sent: Friday, October 26, 2018 5:55 AM To: Chuck Guzis; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: modern stuff On 2018-10-25 14:48, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > While this was a failure on a spectacular level, it was by no means the > only misstep by Intel. The i860 RISC CPU at one time was even being > endorsed by BillG as a possible personal computer basis. the i860 found at least a little niche on graphics boards, so somehow not a complete failure ;-) From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Oct 26 17:38:04 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2018 23:38:04 +0100 Subject: PinOut of DEC F11 Chips in a Professional 350 Message-ID: <004a01d46d7c$8fc76a10$af563e30$@ntlworld.com> As I mentioned in an earlier thread, I am trying to repair a DEC Professional 350 system board. I think I know the pinout of the F11 chips from a KDF11-A printset, can anyone confirm that pin 23 of the DIL package is the RESET signal? If that is correct then it is oscillating and resetting the machine constantly. I am trying to trace the source, but it seems to go through quite a few chips and I haven't yet traced its source. The chips where I believe the RESET is oscillating on pin 23 have been labelled E151 and E152 in the following photo: https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2018/10/system-board-labelled.jpg But I am not really sure if I have identified them and the pin correctly. Thanks Rob From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Oct 26 19:28:15 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 00:28:15 +0000 Subject: TRS-80 Model I modification In-Reply-To: <54131B73-21A5-4B90-94F1-B6C12969425F@pski.net> References: <54131B73-21A5-4B90-94F1-B6C12969425F@pski.net> Message-ID: On 10/26/18 2:07 PM, Peter Cetinski wrote: On Oct 26, 2018, at 12:34 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: Does anyone have a description of how to put 48K of memory in the TRS-80 Model I without using an Expansion Interface? I seem to remember there being some published back in the old days but can't find anything on the web. I think it was done with 4164's and a few pieces of wire wrap wire to jumper the missing address lines. TRS8BIT Vol 7 Issue 4 Page 32 http://www.fabsitesuk.com/tandy/trs8bit_year07.pdf Thank you. That will do it. bill From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Oct 26 20:56:14 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2018 21:56:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PinOut of DEC F11 Chips in a Professional 350 Message-ID: <20181027015614.D88B518C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Rob Jarratt > The chips where I believe the RESET is oscillating on pin 23 have been > labelled E151 and E152 ... But I am not really sure if I have > identified them and the pin correctly. E151 is the main CPU chip: http://gunkies.org/wiki/F-11_chip_set E152 is the KEF11-A floating point chip, and E150 is the KTF11-A memory management chip. Pin 1 of E150 is definitely in the lower left corner (in the photo); there's an indent on the left-hand side of the chip, for the usual DIP orientation. I'm pretty sure the other two have the same orientation. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Oct 26 21:13:31 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2018 22:13:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PinOut of DEC F11 Chips in a Professional 350 Message-ID: <20181027021331.6ED8918C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > I'm pretty sure the other two have the same orientation. They do; I looked at the KDF11-A prints in the /23 print set, and then looked at an actual /23. (I should put a hi-res picture of one on the CHWiki page; the one that's there is pretty miserable.) Noel From steven at malikoff.com Fri Oct 26 21:19:15 2018 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 12:19:15 +1000 Subject: PDP-8 screws In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1c603a2c53089b968cfe43a986dc3238.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> William said > One the original PDP-8 ("Straight 8"), the front panel has two aluminum > strips on the sides, one on the left and one on the right. Each should have > a pair of flathead countersunk screws, likwly Phillips head. > > Can someone tell me the exact specs, basically thread, length, head, and > material of the screws? I have no idea what the straight eight screws are, but for comparison the sort of screws in the PDP-11/05 are things like #6-32 x 1/2 phillips pan head, #10-32 x 5/16 phillips head truss, #8-32 x 3/8 phillips pan head nyloc, #2-56 x 1/2 phillips pan head, #4-40 x 3/8 phillips head flat. And so on it goes. I read somewhere DEC used a lot of stainless screws but that may not apply to all of them. Certainly the cheese head screws that the 11/15's 10-1/2" chassis pivots on are stainless, I checked that for curiosity's sake when I machined some special adapter washers to use with modern server slides. At any rate, you have that wondrous (but US only) fastener supplier's website to help you out. Steve. From shumaker at att.net Fri Oct 26 21:39:04 2018 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2018 19:39:04 -0700 Subject: Teletype cheap In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <32ef5686-60e9-da47-b339-d85a6177f5e8@att.net> OK, got it.? Will be my first one. Now, how does one transport the thing??? Does it easily come off the pedestal??? Can it be laid on it's back?? Anything need to be secured before it gets moved? Steve n 10/24/2018 6:56 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Teletype-Machine-Model-3320-3WA-Teletypewriter-AS-IS-FOR-PARTS-local-pick-up/142981290439?hash=item214a5959c7:g:UXoAAOSwmXJbylEN:rk:6:pf:1&frcectupt=true > > b > From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Oct 26 21:41:11 2018 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2018 19:41:11 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 screws In-Reply-To: <1c603a2c53089b968cfe43a986dc3238.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <1c603a2c53089b968cfe43a986dc3238.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <6ebad3e4-03d6-3511-6737-621b7b969a46@sbcglobal.net> On 10/26/2018 7:19 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > William said >> One the original PDP-8 ("Straight 8"), the front panel has two aluminum >> strips on the sides, one on the left and one on the right. Each should have >> a pair of flathead countersunk screws, likwly Phillips head. >> >> Can someone tell me the exact specs, basically thread, length, head, and >> material of the screws? > > I have no idea what the straight eight screws are, but for comparison the sort of screws in > the PDP-11/05 are things like #6-32 x 1/2 phillips pan head, #10-32 x 5/16 phillips head truss, > #8-32 x 3/8 phillips pan head nyloc, #2-56 x 1/2 phillips pan head, #4-40 x 3/8 phillips head > flat. And so on it goes. > > I read somewhere DEC used a lot of stainless screws but that may not apply to all of them. > Certainly the cheese head screws that the 11/15's 10-1/2" chassis pivots on are stainless, I > checked that for curiosity's sake when I machined some special adapter washers to use with > modern server slides. > > At any rate, you have that wondrous (but US only) fastener supplier's website to help you out. > > Steve. I have four straight-8 panels. All have flat head, stainless (at least non-magnetic) screws. Three have Philips head screws and one has slotted head screws. All are 0.38" total length with about 0.28" thread length. Looks to be an 82 degree countersink. Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Oct 26 21:44:11 2018 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2018 19:44:11 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 screws In-Reply-To: <6ebad3e4-03d6-3511-6737-621b7b969a46@sbcglobal.net> References: <1c603a2c53089b968cfe43a986dc3238.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <6ebad3e4-03d6-3511-6737-621b7b969a46@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On 10/26/2018 7:41 PM, Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk wrote: > On 10/26/2018 7:19 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: >> William said >>> One the original PDP-8 ("Straight 8"), the front panel has two aluminum >>> strips on the sides, one on the left and one on the right. Each >>> should have >>> a pair of flathead countersunk screws, likwly Phillips head. >>> >>> Can someone tell me the exact specs, basically thread, length, head, >>> and >>> material of the screws? >> >> I have no idea what the straight eight screws are, but for comparison >> the sort of screws in >> the PDP-11/05 are things like #6-32 x 1/2 phillips pan head, #10-32 x >> 5/16 phillips head truss, >> #8-32 x 3/8 phillips pan head nyloc, #2-56 x 1/2 phillips pan head, >> #4-40 x 3/8 phillips head >> flat. And so on it goes. >> >> I read somewhere DEC used a lot of stainless screws but that may not >> apply to all of them. >> Certainly the cheese head screws that the 11/15's 10-1/2" chassis >> pivots on are stainless, I >> checked that for curiosity's sake when I machined some special >> adapter washers to use with >> modern server slides. >> >> At any rate, you have that wondrous (but US only) fastener supplier's >> website to help you out. >> >> Steve. > > I have four straight-8 panels. All have flat head, stainless (at least > non-magnetic) screws. Three have Philips head screws > and one has slotted head screws. All are 0.38" total length with about > 0.28" thread length. Looks to be an 82 degree > countersink. > > Bob > I just noticed the three Philips head panels have the plastic front, my only glass front has the slotted screws. Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Oct 26 22:04:22 2018 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2018 23:04:22 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 screws In-Reply-To: References: <1c603a2c53089b968cfe43a986dc3238.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <6ebad3e4-03d6-3511-6737-621b7b969a46@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: What is the thread? 6-32? 8-32? -- Will On Oct 26, 2018 8:44 PM, "Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk" wrote: > On 10/26/2018 7:41 PM, Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk wrote: > >> On 10/26/2018 7:19 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: >> >>> William said >>> >>>> One the original PDP-8 ("Straight 8"), the front panel has two aluminum >>>> strips on the sides, one on the left and one on the right. Each should >>>> have >>>> a pair of flathead countersunk screws, likwly Phillips head. >>>> >>>> Can someone tell me the exact specs, basically thread, length, head, and >>>> material of the screws? >>>> >>> >>> I have no idea what the straight eight screws are, but for comparison >>> the sort of screws in >>> the PDP-11/05 are things like #6-32 x 1/2 phillips pan head, #10-32 x >>> 5/16 phillips head truss, >>> #8-32 x 3/8 phillips pan head nyloc, #2-56 x 1/2 phillips pan head, >>> #4-40 x 3/8 phillips head >>> flat. And so on it goes. >>> >>> I read somewhere DEC used a lot of stainless screws but that may not >>> apply to all of them. >>> Certainly the cheese head screws that the 11/15's 10-1/2" chassis pivots >>> on are stainless, I >>> checked that for curiosity's sake when I machined some special adapter >>> washers to use with >>> modern server slides. >>> >>> At any rate, you have that wondrous (but US only) fastener supplier's >>> website to help you out. >>> >>> Steve. >>> >> >> I have four straight-8 panels. All have flat head, stainless (at least >> non-magnetic) screws. Three have Philips head screws >> and one has slotted head screws. All are 0.38" total length with about >> 0.28" thread length. Looks to be an 82 degree >> countersink. >> >> Bob >> >> I just noticed the three Philips head panels have the plastic front, my > only glass front has the slotted screws. > > Bob > > -- > Vintage computers and electronics > www.dvq.com > www.tekmuseum.com > www.decmuseum.org > > From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Oct 26 22:15:55 2018 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2018 20:15:55 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 screws In-Reply-To: References: <1c603a2c53089b968cfe43a986dc3238.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <6ebad3e4-03d6-3511-6737-621b7b969a46@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On 10/26/2018 8:04 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > What is the thread? 6-32? 8-32? > > -- > Will Thread is 6-32. Bob > > On Oct 26, 2018 8:44 PM, "Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk" > > wrote: > > On 10/26/2018 7:41 PM, Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk wrote: > > On 10/26/2018 7:19 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > > William said > > One the original PDP-8 ("Straight 8"), the front panel > has two aluminum > strips on the sides, one on the left and one on the > right. Each should have > a pair of flathead countersunk screws, likwly Phillips > head. > > Can someone tell me the exact specs, basically thread, > length, head, and > material of the screws? > > > I have no idea what the straight eight screws are, but for > comparison the sort of screws in > the PDP-11/05 are things like #6-32 x 1/2 phillips pan > head, #10-32 x 5/16 phillips head truss, > #8-32 x 3/8 phillips pan head nyloc, #2-56 x 1/2 phillips > pan head, #4-40 x 3/8 phillips head > flat. And so on it goes. > > I read somewhere DEC used a lot of stainless screws but > that may not apply to all of them. > Certainly the cheese head screws that the 11/15's 10-1/2" > chassis pivots on are stainless, I > checked that for curiosity's sake when I machined some > special adapter washers to use with > modern server slides. > > At any rate, you have that wondrous (but US only) fastener > supplier's website to help you out. > > Steve. > > > I have four straight-8 panels. All have flat head, stainless > (at least non-magnetic) screws. Three have Philips head screws > and one has slotted head screws. All are 0.38" total length > with about 0.28" thread length. Looks to be an 82 degree > countersink. > > Bob > > I just noticed the three Philips head panels have the plastic > front, my only glass front has the slotted screws. > > Bob > > -- > Vintage computers and electronics > www.dvq.com > www.tekmuseum.com > www.decmuseum.org > -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Fri Oct 26 22:23:16 2018 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 03:23:16 +0000 Subject: Teletype cheap In-Reply-To: <32ef5686-60e9-da47-b339-d85a6177f5e8@att.net> References: , <32ef5686-60e9-da47-b339-d85a6177f5e8@att.net> Message-ID: There are 4 tie down bolts that you insert in the bottom to secure the printer carriage. this is pretty critical ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of steve shumaker via cctalk Sent: Friday, October 26, 2018 7:39 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Teletype cheap OK, got it. Will be my first one. Now, how does one transport the thing? Does it easily come off the pedestal? Can it be laid on it's back? Anything need to be secured before it gets moved? Steve n 10/24/2018 6:56 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Teletype-Machine-Model-3320-3WA-Teletypewriter-AS-IS-FOR-PARTS-local-pick-up/142981290439?hash=item214a5959c7:g:UXoAAOSwmXJbylEN:rk:6:pf:1&frcectupt=true > > b > From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Oct 26 22:31:12 2018 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 04:31:12 +0100 Subject: Teletype cheap In-Reply-To: <32ef5686-60e9-da47-b339-d85a6177f5e8@att.net> References: <32ef5686-60e9-da47-b339-d85a6177f5e8@att.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 3:38 AM steve shumaker via cctalk wrote: > > OK, got it. Will be my first one. Now, how does one transport the > thing? Does it easily come off the pedestal? Can it be laid on it's > back? Anything need to be secured before it gets moved? It does come off the stand easily. Do not lay it on its back without either removing or securing the typing unit (main mechanical chassis). To expand on that.... To get it off the stand, first take the backplate off the stand (I think it's a couple of obvious screws). There may be a power supply for the reader inside the stand, there may be other electronics (unlikely). Unplug the cables.IIRC the reader power supply just unclips. There are 4 screws going up through the top flanges of the stand into the base pan of the machine. Get a couple of (strong) friends to steady the machine itself and take the screws out. Then just lift it off the stand. It _will_ tip forwards if not steadied, hence needing the friends. The typing unit is only resting on rubber vibration isolators, it is not fixed down. There is a hole on the bottom of the machine where you can fit a screw (it was some kind of self-tapping thing) into the cast metal base of the typing unit to anchor it. But I find it easier to remove the typng unit. To do that, take off the top cover : Pull off the knob on the front and the platten knob. Slide the front nameplate thing down to remove it. Take out the screws thus exposed, the thumbscrews on the back. There may be a screw at the rear left corner of the reader cover (on the side) but it is almost always missing. Lift off the cover. Unplug the connectors at the back of the call control unit (electronics chassis) and disconnect the wires from the little leaf swtich at the rear right of the typng unit. Now look down behind the rear right corner of the keyboard. There's a flat metal plate, the 'H plate', so called because of its shape that connects the keyboard trip linkage to the typing unit. Put a flat blade screwdriver in the slot and slide the H plate against spring tension to free it. Get it out. Then lift the typing unit -- complete with the carriage, motor, and tape punch -- up slightly. Slide it towards the rear to free the runout linkage from under the keyboard. Take the typing unit all the way out. -tony From rtomek at ceti.pl Fri Oct 26 22:32:51 2018 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 05:32:51 +0200 Subject: Object-oriented OS [was: Re: Microsoft-Paul Allen] In-Reply-To: References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <20181027033251.GA5524@tau1.ceti.pl> Ok guys, just to make things clearer, here are two pages from wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-oriented_operating_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-oriented_programming What I was thinking back at the time of premiere: classes, objects derived from the classes, user able to make his own object from system-provided class or define class of his own, or define his own class and inherit from other class, including system-provided one. Examples: - an object pretends to be a disk object, but is double-disk partition or zip file - an object pretends to be file object but in fact it is a composition of few different files, mapped into virtual file-like object (so as to avoid costly copying) - an object says it is a printer but is a proxy, connected via serial-line object to another such serial-line object on remote computer where the real printer sits (connected via parallel, as usually) - object with execution thread, aka active object (in 199x nomenclature -> aka process), can be serialized and migrated to another computer without big fuss either via system provided migration service or via (really easy to write in such setup) user's own - same active object, serialized and stored to file because I gotta go home and have to turn computer off, so I can resurrect it next morning Plus, some kind of system programming language - I had no idea what Smalltalk was and I still have no idea but I might have swallowed that. I think it was possible to have this. But, not from MS. And as time shows, not from anybody. On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 07:34:32PM -0700, Chris Hanson wrote: > On Oct 20, 2018, at 10:31 AM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk > wrote: > > > > > Oooh. My personal recollection about w95 is that there was a lot > > of touting before the premiere day, how advanced it was because > > "object oriented operating system?. [...] > A lot of Windows 95 is implemented using COM, which is probably > where the description of it as ?object-oriented? comes from. Well, I am not going to bet my money on this. What you wrote might be true but I would like something, say a blog or article, in which author shows how I can count those COM objects. I tried to verify your statement and the earliest Windows which could be claimed to be built from many COMs was Windows 8. But the truth is, I have departed from Win-Win land long ago, and only use Windows when someone wants me to unscrew a Windows laptop. > And while I have never been a Windows user, to denigrate it as some > sort of non-achievement given the constraints under which it was > developed, both in terms of target systems and backwards > compatibility, is myopic at best. C'mon, we are not talking about windows on 8-bit computer. I think they had loads of cash even back then and could pick from heaps of CVs. According to ReactOS wikipage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactos On 1 May 2012 a 30,000 euro funding campaign was started to finance additional development projects.[43][44] On the end of the year approximately 50% of the funding goal was achieved and it was decided to continue the funding campaign without deadlines. (...) The development progress is influenced by the size of the development team and the level of experience among them. As an estimate of the effort required to implement Windows 7, Microsoft employed 1,000 or so developers, organized into 25 teams, with each team averaging 40 developers.[85] As of 2 September 2011, in the ReactOS entry in Ohloh, the page followed through the "Very large, active development team" link lists 33 developers who have contributed over a 12-month period and a cumulative total of 104 present and former users who have contributed code to the project via Subversion since its inception.[86] In his presentation at Hackmeeting 2009 in Milan, ReactOS developer Michele C. noted that most of the developers learn about Windows architecture while working on ReactOS and have no prior knowledge. With this funding and so few people those noble folks achieved quite a lot. Do you think MS limitations were bigger? > -- Chris > On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 04:14:34PM +0200, Liam Proven wrote: > On Sat, 20 Oct 2018 at 19:31, Tomasz Rola via cctalk > wrote: > > > Oooh. [...] touting [...] "object oriented operating system" [...] > > objection [...] scam [...] > > I think the explanation for that is fairly clearly there in the history. > > NT 3.1 came soon after Windows 3. > > [... Chicago and Cairo ... multiplied ...] Very true, but if someone promises and does not deliver, who is he? And nobody makes a small print saying "this is just marketing material, so do not count on it". If I cannot count on it, why waste my time? > > Nowadays, I consider W95 as very interesting subject of study - a > > technical product of non-technical genius(es) (ok, if there were tech > > geniuses involved in its making, I would say it does not show up). > [...] > > Win95 was astonishingly compatible, both with DOS drivers and apps, > and with Windows 3 drivers, and yet it was 32-bit in the important > places, delivered true preemptive multitasking, reasonably fast > virtual memory, integrated networking, integrated Internet access, and > a radical, clean, elegant UI which *every single OS after it* has > copied. No objection, except "everybody copied". I have seen those copies, including Gnomes and KDEs (up to about 2014, when I gave up trying) and considered them increasingly dysfunctional. The only thing that was better than original Windows GUI was stability (but after Windows2000 this one improved a lot, IMHO). And I was able to use virtual desktops and they did not suck (while I tried few virtual desktops on Win95 and they sucked like black hole and then some). By virtual I mean multiple desktops on one, not remote. This was available on Linux from day one after my first install in 199..5? (olvwm was the name of WM). And before that, on Solaris (first olwm, then olvwm). Later on, I switched to FVWM, because olvwm could not deliver enough. I still use FVWM, after few years long trial of alternatives. They became too unusable. FVWM continues to work like a charm. What do I care if other people voluntarily push screwdrivers through the random body cavities of their own? Hey, sounds like golden opportunity for sharp hardware shop. > > It > > took a lot of manipulation and wind sniffing to make it such a big > > success, and plenty of intellectual indolence from rivals and > > customers. > > Not really, no! > > There honestly wasn't anything to compare or compete with it. This should be a responce to your message in this other thread, but I am not sure if I have this many time, so, as you claimed that Windows wrote a new book of UI or something: :: Interface Hall of Shame / - Windows95 - http://hallofshame.gp.co.at/msoft.htm There are few other interesting pages there, too. > > Linux was very primitive and clunky back then. And yet I choose to use Linux harder, just because it did job, whereas Windows could not (unless I wanted unreliable computer, and I cannot use unreliable when reliable is available or I get flaming mad). As a side note, I do not claim Linux is oh so the bestest of them all. It just can do things I consider important while Windows could not (every time I try using it in serious manner, after about hour my index finger wants to fall off from constant mouse stimulation). And some time ago Linux started accumulating certain fringe elements, so a jump to another platform is necessary. [...] > I'm amazed as a confirmed MS skeptic that I have to defend it like > this, I must say! I am amazed too. Apparently you do with Windows something else than I would, and if it works for you, I am cool. > -- > Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Oct 27 01:29:49 2018 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 02:29:49 -0400 Subject: modern stuff - i860 In-Reply-To: References: <20181024130116.B11F718C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <78b749e3-0df3-dcfb-3def-b50bbaa24f2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <6c460aa6-35ba-e739-00b8-d8758ce78bc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <89D9E459-BAF3-409C-89FA-8FCD782D0B06@comcast.net> <90302436-c038-ff79-bae7-ea643939c4fc@jetnet.ab.ca> <34e1f336-7626-c127-5051-078f257b0764@jetnet.ab.ca> <741bab3a-a76b-a0d0-8c17-07192e38e4b5@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <4cfd1a95-2ef5-f6fd-7cf6-a4b1d8b4513a@e-bbes.com> On 2018-10-26 16:26, Randy Dawson wrote: > Two design wins I remember: > > TrueVision, the AT&T computer graphics people that did the TARGA video > boards had software to back the board sales up, a 3D animation package > TOPAS. > Beautiful, but dog slow even on the fastest 25MHz PCs at the time, so > they had ported it to the i860 as an add in card.? I think render frame > rates went from minutes to a few seconds.? I used TOPAS under DOSBox on > a current PC, and it screams.? Its up on Vetusware if your interested. > > The famous graphic supercomputer hardware war, Ardent / Stellar, the > later merge and purchase by Kubota had two applications, Dore' and > Advanced Visualization System, AVS. > These impressive machines were canned, and Kubota came out with a i860 > desktop for graphics.? I remember the introduction in Houston, and the > 3D geophysicists and petro exploration guys were all over it.? the > graphics demos and computation capability was amazing. > Most high end graphics on DecStations had an i860 on it. Rumor is, they were made by Kubota, but never saw a drawing or schematics to prove it ... From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Sat Oct 27 02:02:24 2018 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 09:02:24 +0200 Subject: Scan of Micro Peripherals Inc MPI 91/92 Product Manual Avail? In-Reply-To: References: <668e456f-bbf3-5f85-6d4a-2f6d5587ba64@bitsavers.org> <7af73298-68f2-4ce1-962e-e68d65dae2c6@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 26.10.18 01:16, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 10/25/18 4:00 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > >> If you need a sheet-fed duplex scanner for B-size, expect to spend a pretty >> good chunk of change even for a used one. >> > > I've been through several million pages with my Panasonic KV-3065CW > duplex tabloid color scanner > > They can be found used for <$500 now > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/292774459578 > > If you are willing to go with obsolete interfaces : my Firewire-only duplex/A3 Kodak i280 scanner was mine for 100 Euro. Sheet feeder works OK, unit even has a inkjet printer to label scanned sheets wit a code. Can fully recommend it. Jos From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Oct 27 03:06:07 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 09:06:07 +0100 Subject: PinOut of DEC F11 Chips in a Professional 350 In-Reply-To: <20181027015614.D88B518C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181027015614.D88B518C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <005701d46dcb$eadabf20$c0903d60$@ntlworld.com> Thanks Noel. According to the printset for the KDF11-A pin 23 is the RESET signal, which would make it the 3rd pin from the right at the top right of the CPU. The printset also showed a second chip with its RESET on pin 23 and I have confirmed that E151 and E152 have pin 23 tied together. So I am pretty confident that this is indeed the RESET. I have been tracing the source of the RESET, because as I have said it is oscillating, and it seems to go through a *lot* of logic, and I haven't fully traced the source of the oscillation yet. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel > Chiappa via cctalk > Sent: 27 October 2018 02:56 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: Re: PinOut of DEC F11 Chips in a Professional 350 > > > From: Rob Jarratt > > > The chips where I believe the RESET is oscillating on pin 23 have been > > labelled E151 and E152 ... But I am not really sure if I have > > identified them and the pin correctly. > > E151 is the main CPU chip: > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/F-11_chip_set > > E152 is the KEF11-A floating point chip, and E150 is the KTF11-A memory > management chip. > > Pin 1 of E150 is definitely in the lower left corner (in the photo); there's an > indent on the left-hand side of the chip, for the usual DIP orientation. > I'm pretty sure the other two have the same orientation. > > Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Oct 26 08:08:52 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2018 09:08:52 -0400 Subject: Scan of Micro Peripherals Inc MPI 91/92 Product Manual Avail? In-Reply-To: References: <668e456f-bbf3-5f85-6d4a-2f6d5587ba64@bitsavers.org> <7af73298-68f2-4ce1-962e-e68d65dae2c6@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 1:21 AM Al Kossow via cctech wrote: > > > On 10/25/18 4:00 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > > > If you need a sheet-fed duplex scanner for B-size, expect to spend a > pretty > > good chunk of change even for a used one. > > > > I've been through several million pages with my Panasonic KV-3065CW > duplex tabloid color scanner > > They can be found used for <$500 now > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/292774459578 Thanks Al, I am going to go on your authority :-) From gordon+cctalk at drogon.net Fri Oct 26 08:10:34 2018 From: gordon+cctalk at drogon.net (Gordon Henderson) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2018 14:10:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: modern stuff In-Reply-To: <741bab3a-a76b-a0d0-8c17-07192e38e4b5@e-bbes.com> References: <20181024130116.B11F718C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <78b749e3-0df3-dcfb-3def-b50bbaa24f2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <6c460aa6-35ba-e739-00b8-d8758ce78bc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <89D9E459-BAF3-409C-89FA-8FCD782D0B06@comcast.net> <90302436-c038-ff79-bae7-ea643939c4fc@jetnet.ab.ca> <34e1f336-7626-c127-5051-078f257b0764@jetnet.ab.ca> <741bab3a-a76b-a0d0-8c17-07192e38e4b5@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Oct 2018, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > On 2018-10-25 14:48, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> While this was a failure on a spectacular level, it was by no means the >> only misstep by Intel. The i860 RISC CPU at one time was even being >> endorsed by BillG as a possible personal computer basis. > > the i860 found at least a little niche on graphics boards, so somehow > not a complete failure ;-) I worked for a company that made supercomputer boards out of the i860 at one point - at the time (very early 90's) they were blindingly fast, 40Mhz, 3 instructions per clock cycle which, since one was a floating point multiply and add meant that it was pretty good - at the time. However it was a royal PITA to code for although a 32-bit CPU, it would read memory 64 bits at a time (actually 128 IIRC to satisfy the cache), with half that 64-bit word being an instruction for the integer unit and half for the floating point unit, so you effectively had to build a floating point pipeline by hand coded instructions, so 8 (I think) instructions to load the pipeline, then each subsequent instruction would feed another value into the pipe, then another 8 at the end to empty it. Great for big matrix operations, rubbish for a single add of 2 FP numbers. The issue came when you wanted to take an interrupt - the overhead of flushing the pipe, reloading it all for the next context, and so on really bogged it down. Not to mention writing assembly code in 2 columns... There were quite a few systems built with about 30 boards in them, each having 2 x i860's and a good few MB of RAM (64MB I think) built. -Gordon From iamvirtual at gmail.com Fri Oct 26 16:19:02 2018 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 02:19:02 +0500 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <166a3a01ee9-1ec8-799c@webjas-vaa085.srv.aolmail.net> References: <20181023235750.2666418C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <166a3a01ee9-1ec8-799c@webjas-vaa085.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: I believe I have a preliminary copy of Focal-11. See: http://iamvirtual.ca/collection/systems/mediadoc/mediadoc.html On Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 06:11 ED SHARPE via cctalk, wrote: > both will run focal... but I need focal 11 on paper tape I have asked > several people but have not heard if it is even available? > > Sent from AOL Mobile Mail > > On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 Noel Chiappa via cctalk < > jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu; cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > PS: > > > Not the simplest machine to implement, mind - the -8 is a lot > > simpler. > > As a rough measure of how much more complex, the -8/E and -11/20 are > roughly > contemporaneous, and built out of the same technology (SSI TTL on larger > boards): the -8/E CPU is 5 quad boards, and the -11/20 CPU is 9 quad board > (equivalents - some are duals, etc). > > Noel > From pat at vax11.net Sat Oct 27 07:47:33 2018 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 08:47:33 -0400 Subject: PinOut of DEC F11 Chips in a Professional 350 In-Reply-To: <005701d46dcb$eadabf20$c0903d60$@ntlworld.com> References: <20181027015614.D88B518C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <005701d46dcb$eadabf20$c0903d60$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 27, 2018, 04:06 Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > I have been tracing the source of the RESET, because as I have said it is > oscillating, and it seems to go through a *lot* of logic, and I haven't > fully traced the source of the oscillation yet. > Have you checked the PSU output? My first guess would be bad caps in the power supply. Pat > From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Oct 27 08:04:35 2018 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 09:04:35 -0400 Subject: i860, was : Re: modern stuff In-Reply-To: References: <20181024130116.B11F718C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <78b749e3-0df3-dcfb-3def-b50bbaa24f2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <6c460aa6-35ba-e739-00b8-d8758ce78bc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <89D9E459-BAF3-409C-89FA-8FCD782D0B06@comcast.net> <90302436-c038-ff79-bae7-ea643939c4fc@jetnet.ab.ca> <34e1f336-7626-c127-5051-078f257b0764@jetnet.ab.ca> <741bab3a-a76b-a0d0-8c17-07192e38e4b5@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <1ba89234-aa8c-6d43-6c59-a55ac3eb987e@e-bbes.com> On 2018-10-26 09:10, Gordon Henderson via cctalk wrote: > I worked for a company that made supercomputer boards out of the i860 at > one point - at the time (very early 90's) they were blindingly fast, > 40Mhz, 3 instructions per clock cycle which, since one was a floating > point multiply and add meant that it was pretty good - at the time. > > However it was a royal PITA to code for although a 32-bit CPU, it would > read memory 64 bits at a time (actually 128 IIRC to satisfy the cache), > with half that 64-bit word being an instruction for the integer unit and > half for the floating point unit, so you effectively had to build a > floating point pipeline by hand coded instructions, so 8 (I think) > instructions to load the pipeline, then each subsequent instruction > would feed another value into the pipe, then another 8 at the end to > empty it. Great for big matrix operations, rubbish for a single add of 2 > FP numbers. > > The issue came when you wanted to take an interrupt - the overhead of > flushing the pipe, reloading it all for the next context, and so on > really bogged it down. > > Not to mention writing assembly code in 2 columns... > > There were quite a few systems built with about 30 boards in them, each > having 2 x i860's and a good few MB of RAM (64MB I think) built. There was actually a nice PC Mainboard from Hauppauge, with an i486 & i860 on the same board ... Always wanted to have one of those, never found a used one. And it was running some king of Unix back then ... http://www.geekdot.com/hauppauge-4860/ Cheers From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Oct 27 08:46:22 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 09:46:22 -0400 Subject: Teletype cheap In-Reply-To: References: <32ef5686-60e9-da47-b339-d85a6177f5e8@att.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 26, 2018, 11:31 PM Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 3:38 AM steve shumaker via cctalk > wrote: > > > > OK, got it. Will be my first one. Now, how does one transport the > > thing? Does it easily come off the pedestal? Can it be laid on it's > > back? Anything need to be secured before it gets moved? > > It does come off the stand easily. Do not lay it on its back without > either removing or securing the typing unit (main mechanical chassis). > > To expand on that.... > > To get it off the stand, first take the backplate off the stand (I think > it's > a couple of obvious screws). There may be a power supply for the reader > inside the stand, there may be other electronics (unlikely). Unplug the > cables.IIRC the reader power supply just unclips. > > There are 4 screws going up through the top flanges of the stand into the > base pan of the machine. Get a couple of (strong) friends to steady the > machine > itself and take the screws out. Then just lift it off the stand. It > _will_ tip forwards > if not steadied, hence needing the friends. > > The typing unit is only resting on rubber vibration isolators, it is not > fixed > down. There is a hole on the bottom of the machine where you can fit > a screw (it was some kind of self-tapping thing) into the cast metal > base of the typing unit to anchor it. But I find it easier to remove the > typng unit. > > To do that, take off the top cover : Pull off the knob on the front and the > platten knob. Slide the front nameplate thing down to remove it. Take > out the screws thus exposed, the thumbscrews on the back. There may > be a screw at the rear left corner of the reader cover (on the side) but > it is almost always missing. Lift off the cover. > > Unplug the connectors at the back of the call control unit (electronics > chassis) and disconnect the wires from the little leaf swtich at the rear > right of the typng unit. > > Now look down behind the rear right corner of the keyboard. There's > a flat metal plate, the 'H plate', so called because of its shape that > connects the keyboard trip linkage to the typing unit. Put a flat > blade screwdriver in the slot and slide the H plate against spring > tension to free it. Get it out. > > Then lift the typing unit -- complete with the carriage, motor, and > tape punch -- up slightly. Slide it towards the rear to free the runout > linkage from under the keyboard. Take the typing unit all the way out. > > -tony > Really check carefully for the small inset screw near the reader on the side of most tty covers. If you try to remove the cover before removing this screw you'll RIP the cover near the reader and possibly crack the cover. The presence of this screw is a good sign, it means that the teletype has never been parted out and/or only serviced by a professional. Take good photos before you disassemble anything. Avoid removing the cover of the keyboard keys at all costs. See vintagecomputer.net/teletype/ from there download a how to "101" pdf with useful info how to wire it up and a few other things about getting started not already mentioned.. It is very possible that the reader motor is installed in the pedestal. If so, you will have to detach it first before you remove the TTY from the pedestal (not sure if this was already mentioned). Take good pictures before you remove the reader motor from the pedestal because it tends to fall apart the way it's installed into pieces that will have to be re-assembled. I usually remove the screws from inside of the pedestal. There is no reason to disassemble the actual TTY for transport and if you can find a way to transport the TTY with the My getting-started philosophy is to clean out the dust and crud, check the fuses, make sure the printer and keyboard bars are straight, make sure the 4 gold pins in the reader are straight and replace the print hammer rubber. Then power it on in LOCAL mode. If it does not continuously chatter you're in good shape. Start with the local keyboard/printer to work first. Leave things like the UCC-6 (power supply) and reader relay (if there is one) as is until you know why you need to change something. TTYs have a different wiring but you need to understand the context of how it was used before you return yours to "stock". If you determine you need to oil a stuck part use sewing machine oil or NYE oil (my choice), but it will not hurt a clean TTY to hold off on the oil until you start heavy use. They're pretty robust machines. Bill From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Oct 27 11:07:03 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 11:07:03 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 screws In-Reply-To: <1c603a2c53089b968cfe43a986dc3238.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <1c603a2c53089b968cfe43a986dc3238.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <5BD48D27.8080002@pico-systems.com> On 10/26/2018 09:19 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > William said >> One the original PDP-8 ("Straight 8"), the front panel has two aluminum >> strips on the sides, one on the left and one on the right. Each should have >> a pair of flathead countersunk screws, likwly Phillips head. >> >> Can someone tell me the exact specs, basically thread, length, head, and >> material of the screws? > > I have no idea what the straight eight screws are, but for comparison the sort of screws in > The screws in 19" relay racks are almost all 10-32. Flat-heads come in 60, 82, 90 and 110 degree angles. I'm guessing these might be 82 degree, that is quite standard. To avoid marring the panels, there were things that had a nylon "washer" or ring that was capped by a metal "washer". These both had an internal angle that matched the screw angle. The metal washer was shorter than the nylon one, so ONLY the nylon washer touched the panel. The metal washer was to prevent the nylon one from being squashed by the screw. I have NO IDEA where you would find these things today, maybe they still make them. But, they used to be quite common where equipment racks were used. Jon From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Oct 27 11:10:14 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 11:10:14 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 screws In-Reply-To: <5BD48D27.8080002@pico-systems.com> References: <1c603a2c53089b968cfe43a986dc3238.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <5BD48D27.8080002@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: u can still get em see them on modern racks from time to time On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 11:07 AM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 10/26/2018 09:19 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > > William said > >> One the original PDP-8 ("Straight 8"), the front panel has two aluminum > >> strips on the sides, one on the left and one on the right. Each should > have > >> a pair of flathead countersunk screws, likwly Phillips head. > >> > >> Can someone tell me the exact specs, basically thread, length, head, and > >> material of the screws? > > > > I have no idea what the straight eight screws are, but for comparison > the sort of screws in > > > The screws in 19" relay racks are almost all 10-32. > Flat-heads come in 60, 82, 90 and 110 degree angles. I'm > guessing these might be 82 degree, that is quite standard. > To avoid marring the panels, there were things that had a > nylon "washer" or ring that was capped by a metal "washer". > These both had an internal angle that matched the screw > angle. The metal washer was shorter than the nylon one, so > ONLY the nylon washer touched the panel. The metal washer > was to prevent the nylon one from being squashed by the > screw. I have NO IDEA where you would find these things > today, maybe they still make them. But, they used to be > quite common where equipment racks were used. > > Jon > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Oct 27 11:13:52 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 11:13:52 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 screws In-Reply-To: References: <1c603a2c53089b968cfe43a986dc3238.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <5BD48D27.8080002@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: also see em in the audio world for rack mounting equipmednt On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 11:10 AM Adrian Stoness wrote: > u can still get em see them on modern racks from time to time > > On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 11:07 AM Jon Elson via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On 10/26/2018 09:19 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: >> > William said >> >> One the original PDP-8 ("Straight 8"), the front panel has two aluminum >> >> strips on the sides, one on the left and one on the right. Each should >> have >> >> a pair of flathead countersunk screws, likwly Phillips head. >> >> >> >> Can someone tell me the exact specs, basically thread, length, head, >> and >> >> material of the screws? >> > >> > I have no idea what the straight eight screws are, but for comparison >> the sort of screws in >> > >> The screws in 19" relay racks are almost all 10-32. >> Flat-heads come in 60, 82, 90 and 110 degree angles. I'm >> guessing these might be 82 degree, that is quite standard. >> To avoid marring the panels, there were things that had a >> nylon "washer" or ring that was capped by a metal "washer". >> These both had an internal angle that matched the screw >> angle. The metal washer was shorter than the nylon one, so >> ONLY the nylon washer touched the panel. The metal washer >> was to prevent the nylon one from being squashed by the >> screw. I have NO IDEA where you would find these things >> today, maybe they still make them. But, they used to be >> quite common where equipment racks were used. >> >> Jon >> > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Oct 27 11:22:12 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 17:22:12 +0100 Subject: PinOut of DEC F11 Chips in a Professional 350 In-Reply-To: References: <20181027015614.D88B518C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <005701d46dcb$eadabf20$c0903d60$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <008901d46e11$38931650$a9b942f0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Patrick > Finnegan via cctalk > Sent: 27 October 2018 13:48 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: PinOut of DEC F11 Chips in a Professional 350 > > On Sat, Oct 27, 2018, 04:06 Rob Jarratt via cctalk > wrote: > > > > > I have been tracing the source of the RESET, because as I have said it > > is oscillating, and it seems to go through a *lot* of logic, and I > > haven't fully traced the source of the oscillation yet. > > > > Have you checked the PSU output? My first guess would be bad caps in the > power supply. > I should have said that I have already checked, the ripple is about 100mv peak to peak, which I assume is OK. The green DC OK LED is illuminating too, so I think the PSU is fine. Regards Rob From db at db.net Sat Oct 27 11:59:28 2018 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 12:59:28 -0400 Subject: SUN keyboard for grabs Message-ID: <20181027165928.GA35129@night.db.net> I am tossing a pile of old PC keyboards but found one SUN type C keyboard. It's missing a few keys :-( but might interest anyone needing spare parts. Missing Find/Cut left keypad "."/Suppr on right keypad "c" key is missing one foot is missing I'll ship if you pay postage. - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://artemis.db.net/~db From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 27 13:02:57 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 11:02:57 -0700 Subject: modern stuff In-Reply-To: References: <20181024130116.B11F718C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <78b749e3-0df3-dcfb-3def-b50bbaa24f2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <6c460aa6-35ba-e739-00b8-d8758ce78bc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <89D9E459-BAF3-409C-89FA-8FCD782D0B06@comcast.net> <90302436-c038-ff79-bae7-ea643939c4fc@jetnet.ab.ca> <34e1f336-7626-c127-5051-078f257b0764@jetnet.ab.ca> <741bab3a-a76b-a0d0-8c17-07192e38e4b5@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <978e5703-263e-91ad-887a-6c74b9ed6523@sydex.com> On 10/26/18 6:10 AM, Gordon Henderson via cctalk wrote: > However it was a royal PITA to code for although a 32-bit CPU, it would > read memory 64 bits at a time (actually 128 IIRC to satisfy the cache), > with half that 64-bit word being an instruction for the integer unit and > half for the floating point unit, so you effectively had to build a > floating point pipeline by hand coded instructions, so 8 (I think) > instructions to load the pipeline, then each subsequent instruction > would feed another value into the pipe, then another 8 at the end to > empty it. Great for big matrix operations, rubbish for a single add of 2 > FP numbers. My impression of the i860 was that it might have been fun for about 2 weeks for which to code assembly, but after that, you'd really start looking hard for an HLL to do the dirty work for you. While there's a sense of accomplishment over looking at a page of painfully hand-optimized code that manages to keep everything busy with no "bubbles", you begin to wonder if there isn't a better way to spend your life. --Chuck From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Oct 27 13:11:23 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 14:11:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FP11-A Technical Manual Message-ID: <20181027181123.7FAEB18C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So, I bought a copy of the FP11-A Technical Manual (EK-FP11A-TM), but when it got here, it was the 'Preliminary' version (-PRE), with type-written text, some of the figures are hand-drawn, etc. This manual does not seem to be generally available online, although at one point a copy was available for download briefly; although it's not the greatest scan job, I have put it up here: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/dload/EK-FP11A-TM-002.pdf So, is it worth my scanning the -PRE version, or should I just punt, and we'll go with that scan of the -002? Noel From shumaker at att.net Sat Oct 27 13:28:10 2018 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 11:28:10 -0700 Subject: Teletype cheap In-Reply-To: References: <32ef5686-60e9-da47-b339-d85a6177f5e8@att.net> Message-ID: Thanks all for the comments - as usual, this list offers up stuff you can't get with Google.? Bill,? you started a thought in your comment but didn't complete it - was it significant?: ? ? ? ? "and if you can find away to transport the TTY with the..." Steve On 10/27/2018 6:46 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Oct 26, 2018, 11:31 PM Tony Duell via cctalk > wrote: > >> On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 3:38 AM steve shumaker via cctalk >> wrote: >>> OK, got it. Will be my first one. Now, how does one transport the >>> thing? Does it easily come off the pedestal? Can it be laid on it's >>> back? Anything need to be secured before it gets moved? >> It does come off the stand easily. Do not lay it on its back without >> either removing or securing the typing unit (main mechanical chassis). >> >> To expand on that.... >> >> To get it off the stand, first take the backplate off the stand (I think >> it's >> a couple of obvious screws). There may be a power supply for the reader >> inside the stand, there may be other electronics (unlikely). Unplug the >> cables.IIRC the reader power supply just unclips. >> >> There are 4 screws going up through the top flanges of the stand into the >> base pan of the machine. Get a couple of (strong) friends to steady the >> machine >> itself and take the screws out. Then just lift it off the stand. It >> _will_ tip forwards >> if not steadied, hence needing the friends. >> >> The typing unit is only resting on rubber vibration isolators, it is not >> fixed >> down. There is a hole on the bottom of the machine where you can fit >> a screw (it was some kind of self-tapping thing) into the cast metal >> base of the typing unit to anchor it. But I find it easier to remove the >> typng unit. >> >> To do that, take off the top cover : Pull off the knob on the front and the >> platten knob. Slide the front nameplate thing down to remove it. Take >> out the screws thus exposed, the thumbscrews on the back. There may >> be a screw at the rear left corner of the reader cover (on the side) but >> it is almost always missing. Lift off the cover. >> >> Unplug the connectors at the back of the call control unit (electronics >> chassis) and disconnect the wires from the little leaf swtich at the rear >> right of the typng unit. >> >> Now look down behind the rear right corner of the keyboard. There's >> a flat metal plate, the 'H plate', so called because of its shape that >> connects the keyboard trip linkage to the typing unit. Put a flat >> blade screwdriver in the slot and slide the H plate against spring >> tension to free it. Get it out. >> >> Then lift the typing unit -- complete with the carriage, motor, and >> tape punch -- up slightly. Slide it towards the rear to free the runout >> linkage from under the keyboard. Take the typing unit all the way out. >> >> -tony >> > > > Really check carefully for the small inset screw near the reader on the > side of most tty covers. If you try to remove the cover before removing > this screw you'll RIP the cover near the reader and possibly crack the > cover. The presence of this screw is a good sign, it means that the > teletype has never been parted out and/or only serviced by a professional. > > Take good photos before you disassemble anything. Avoid removing the cover > of the keyboard keys at all costs. > > See vintagecomputer.net/teletype/ from there download a how to "101" pdf > with useful info how to wire it up and a few other things about getting > started not already mentioned.. > > It is very possible that the reader motor is installed in the pedestal. If > so, you will have to detach it first before you remove the TTY from the > pedestal (not sure if this was already mentioned). Take good pictures > before you remove the reader motor from the pedestal because it tends to > fall apart the way it's installed into pieces that will have to be > re-assembled. > > I usually remove the screws from inside of the pedestal. There is no > reason to disassemble the actual TTY for transport and if you can find a > way to transport the TTY with the > > My getting-started philosophy is to clean out the dust and crud, check the > fuses, make sure the printer and keyboard bars are straight, make sure the > 4 gold pins in the reader are straight and replace the print hammer > rubber. Then power it on in LOCAL mode. If it does not continuously > chatter you're in good shape. Start with the local keyboard/printer to > work first. Leave things like the UCC-6 (power supply) and reader relay > (if there is one) as is until you know why you need to change something. > TTYs have a different wiring but you need to understand the context of how > it was used before you return yours to "stock". If you determine you need > to oil a stuck part use sewing machine oil or NYE oil (my choice), but it > will not hurt a clean TTY to hold off on the oil until you start heavy > use. They're pretty robust machines. > > Bill > From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 27 18:19:08 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 16:19:08 -0700 Subject: source for smt probe clip Message-ID: <7494aeac-c0d1-a94f-1d5b-6c3cf9566f2b@bitsavers.org> Has anyone seen a source for these clips? http://bitsavers.org/mysteries/salea_clip.JPG They come with the Salae logic analyzer, and are like the HP logic analyzer clips in that the wire is detachable, instead of the common style you can buy where you have to solder on a wire. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 27 18:23:09 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 16:23:09 -0700 Subject: i860, was : Re: modern stuff In-Reply-To: <1ba89234-aa8c-6d43-6c59-a55ac3eb987e@e-bbes.com> References: <20181024130116.B11F718C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <78b749e3-0df3-dcfb-3def-b50bbaa24f2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <6c460aa6-35ba-e739-00b8-d8758ce78bc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <89D9E459-BAF3-409C-89FA-8FCD782D0B06@comcast.net> <90302436-c038-ff79-bae7-ea643939c4fc@jetnet.ab.ca> <34e1f336-7626-c127-5051-078f257b0764@jetnet.ab.ca> <741bab3a-a76b-a0d0-8c17-07192e38e4b5@e-bbes.com> <1ba89234-aa8c-6d43-6c59-a55ac3eb987e@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <1f106a88-75df-7db7-a933-fe22923f8654@bitsavers.org> CHM has a rather large Intel Paragon system. I just recently snagged the software and manuals for it on eBay which we didn't have http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/X1644.99 and others http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/search/?s=intel+paragon From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 27 18:42:12 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 16:42:12 -0700 Subject: source for smt probe clip In-Reply-To: <7494aeac-c0d1-a94f-1d5b-6c3cf9566f2b@bitsavers.org> References: <7494aeac-c0d1-a94f-1d5b-6c3cf9566f2b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 10/27/18 4:19 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Has anyone seen a source for these clips? > > http://bitsavers.org/mysteries/salea_clip.JPG > > They come with the Salae logic analyzer, and are like the HP logic analyzer clips > in that the wire is detachable, instead of the common style you can buy > where you have to solder on a wire. Pomona 5790? From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 27 19:31:09 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 17:31:09 -0700 Subject: source for smt probe clip In-Reply-To: <44D7EC74-99CA-46FE-AA6D-3006AEA656F1@gmail.com> References: <7494aeac-c0d1-a94f-1d5b-6c3cf9566f2b@bitsavers.org> <44D7EC74-99CA-46FE-AA6D-3006AEA656F1@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10/27/18 4:51 PM, corey cohen wrote: > >> On Oct 27, 2018, at 7:42 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> >>> On 10/27/18 4:19 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >>> Has anyone seen a source for these clips? >>> >>> http://bitsavers.org/mysteries/salea_clip.JPG >>> >>> They come with the Salae logic analyzer, and are like the HP logic analyzer clips >>> in that the wire is detachable, instead of the common style you can buy >>> where you have to solder on a wire. >> >> Pomona 5790? >> >> > > I thought I saw some that would work at Halted/HSC in Santa Clara this past week. They were right across from the counter where you pay. > There's also these "micrograbber" clips at All Electronics for $2 the each: https://www.allelectronics.com/item/mtc-9b/micrograbber-test-clip-w/0.64mm-square-pin/1.html I don't like them as much as the Pomonas--the cheapies use only a single contact, rather than the "pincer" style of the Pomona. --Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Oct 27 21:37:48 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 20:37:48 -0600 Subject: source for smt probe clip In-Reply-To: <7494aeac-c0d1-a94f-1d5b-6c3cf9566f2b@bitsavers.org> References: <7494aeac-c0d1-a94f-1d5b-6c3cf9566f2b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: EZ-Hook XKM. I don't know whether they cloned the HP grabber probe, or supplied them to HP. They're expensive, so I usually buy the HP grabbers on eBay. Watch out. There are some Chinese clone grabbers that look like the XKM or HP, but aren't nearly as good. On Sat, Oct 27, 2018, 18:57 Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Has anyone seen a source for these clips? > > http://bitsavers.org/mysteries/salea_clip.JPG > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sat Oct 27 22:25:09 2018 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 20:25:09 -0700 Subject: VAX Lisp, Macsyma, Maxima In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <13d32705-bb34-1518-489d-ea6aa4eadc1e@jwsss.com> On 10/24/2018 4:07 PM, David Coolbear via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone know if any of these are still available for OpenVMS VAX? This was posted on the Multics thread in February. Eric Swenson got the original-ish MACSYMA built and running in ITS. It's frankensteined together from a mix of source and FASL files from ITS, Lisp machine Macsyma sources, etc. You might contact him.? Email me off list, and I'll forward his contact info if you can't contact him thru the Multicians list.? I would imagine it's not for the faint hearted to get it going if you do not have experience with Lisp. I played with it quite a lot in 75 on the Multics system? It was like I'd discovered that Hal9000 was real, as everyone probably? knows. I have somewhere a complimentary copy from the people who licensed it and had a version for the x86.? I think 4 of the original people on the project worked for the company which did it, and they were very nice if your were a real multician.? But that won't have any sources, just an install for the system you used it on. It would be great for someone to do that if it worked and you can get it to run there. thanks Jim From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 27 23:13:42 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 21:13:42 -0700 Subject: source for smt probe clip In-Reply-To: References: <7494aeac-c0d1-a94f-1d5b-6c3cf9566f2b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <725ec832-4b53-e25d-9f12-3406d5b47149@bitsavers.org> On 10/27/18 7:37 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > EZ-Hook XKM thanks! https://sigrok.org/wiki/Probe_comparison is a breakdown. they note that Salae used to ship EZ-Hook but now ship a knock-off (no EZ-Hook name molded on) From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 27 23:50:34 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 21:50:34 -0700 Subject: source for smt probe clip In-Reply-To: <725ec832-4b53-e25d-9f12-3406d5b47149@bitsavers.org> References: <7494aeac-c0d1-a94f-1d5b-6c3cf9566f2b@bitsavers.org> <725ec832-4b53-e25d-9f12-3406d5b47149@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <99273aef-13e1-72df-9119-b7860658521b@sydex.com> On 10/27/18 9:13 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 10/27/18 7:37 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> EZ-Hook XKM > > thanks! > > https://sigrok.org/wiki/Probe_comparison > > is a breakdown. they note that Salae used to ship EZ-Hook but now ship a knock-off (no EZ-Hook name molded on) They don't mention the Pomona 5790, which is pretty much a clone of the Tek probe. Still not cheap--about $10 each, lowest price. --Chuck From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sun Oct 28 00:41:38 2018 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 22:41:38 -0700 Subject: source for smt probe clip In-Reply-To: <99273aef-13e1-72df-9119-b7860658521b@sydex.com> References: <7494aeac-c0d1-a94f-1d5b-6c3cf9566f2b@bitsavers.org> <725ec832-4b53-e25d-9f12-3406d5b47149@bitsavers.org> <99273aef-13e1-72df-9119-b7860658521b@sydex.com> Message-ID: <39aebae9-84ea-0aba-47ae-8d844ad5adf6@sbcglobal.net> On 10/27/2018 9:50 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 10/27/18 9:13 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 10/27/18 7:37 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >>> EZ-Hook XKM >> thanks! >> >> https://sigrok.org/wiki/Probe_comparison >> >> is a breakdown. they note that Salae used to ship EZ-Hook but now ship a knock-off (no EZ-Hook name molded on) > They don't mention the Pomona 5790, which is pretty much a clone of the > Tek probe. > > Still not cheap--about $10 each, lowest price. > > --Chuck > > If you search for Tektronix or HP grabbers on ebay you can usually find them for $1 to $2 each, sometimes less. I bought 100 of the Tektronix ones a few years ago. They work fine but can be easily damaged if your not careful. Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From carlojpisani at gmail.com Sun Oct 28 02:59:53 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2018 08:59:53 +0100 Subject: Apple PowerMac G4 Mdd mobo + CPU + MOS license In-Reply-To: References: <7494aeac-c0d1-a94f-1d5b-6c3cf9566f2b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: hi guys I have a motherboard + CPU G4 @1.2Ghz for sale it's the last revision of the MDD PowerMac G4 and it comes with a license for Morphos (MOS) located in Italy cheers From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Oct 28 11:15:03 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2018 09:15:03 -0700 Subject: source for smt probe clip In-Reply-To: <725ec832-4b53-e25d-9f12-3406d5b47149@bitsavers.org> References: <7494aeac-c0d1-a94f-1d5b-6c3cf9566f2b@bitsavers.org> <725ec832-4b53-e25d-9f12-3406d5b47149@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 10/27/18 9:13 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 10/27/18 7:37 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> EZ-Hook XKM > > thanks! > > https://sigrok.org/wiki/Probe_comparison > > is a breakdown. they note that Salae used to ship EZ-Hook but now ship a knock-off (no EZ-Hook name molded on) > This request was related to the displaywriter board prober I'm working on I've abandoned DIP clips for individual wires My current thoughts on the probes are a single sense comparator, and an string of tlc6c598 DMOS drivers to common on a strip of 41 POGO pins on a push solenoid moved across the x axis of the board by the AxiDraw. Setup of the scan is easy, the chip has clear, load and shift. On each pass, clear the chain, load a 1 on the serial input then shift to probe the other 40 pins. Step and repeat. This is simple enough the whole thing should be able to be bit banged by an FTDI UM245R Software is then pretty simple. Display a .1" grid of points (41x67) and each single-pin probe sweep is a net. Light the hits so you don't bother scanning points that are already in a net. Start with power and ground. An added benefit is you'll pick up the DIP, power and ground connections to all the passives, as well as all of the vias in the net and connections to the IBM cans that you can't probe from the top. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Oct 28 11:45:53 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2018 09:45:53 -0700 Subject: source for smt probe clip In-Reply-To: References: <7494aeac-c0d1-a94f-1d5b-6c3cf9566f2b@bitsavers.org> <725ec832-4b53-e25d-9f12-3406d5b47149@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <18d58b01-7d44-0065-0c92-dcc3980a93a3@bitsavers.org> On 10/28/18 9:15 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > Software is then pretty simple. Display a .1" grid of points (41x67) and each single-pin probe sweep is a net. foo, I forgot about the CPU board. the grid needs to be 67x86 :-( From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Sun Oct 28 11:00:01 2018 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2018 14:00:01 -0200 Subject: source for smt probe clip In-Reply-To: <7494aeac-c0d1-a94f-1d5b-6c3cf9566f2b@bitsavers.org> References: <7494aeac-c0d1-a94f-1d5b-6c3cf9566f2b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I've got lots and lots in HP probe kits. Just gota brand new HP probe kit for #40 with some 80 clips and 4 "Hydra" termination cables. The HP P/N is 16715-68702 ---8<---Corte aqui---8<--- http://www.tabajara-labs.blogspot.com http://www.tabalabs.com.br ---8<---Corte aqui---8<--- Em s?b, 27 de out de 2018 ?s 21:42, Al Kossow via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> escreveu: > Has anyone seen a source for these clips? > > http://bitsavers.org/mysteries/salea_clip.JPG > > They come with the Salae logic analyzer, and are like the HP logic > analyzer clips > in that the wire is detachable, instead of the common style you can buy > where you have to solder on a wire. > > From technoid6502 at gmail.com Sun Oct 28 12:16:44 2018 From: technoid6502 at gmail.com (Jeffrey S. Worley) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2018 13:16:44 -0400 Subject: "Object Oriented GUI" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01e83dac0a96469e425a0632bd07319351c9362d.camel@Gmail.com> I used OS/2 from 1993 to 2003 almost exclusively. It has the most beautiful GUI on the planet, is object-oriented to a fault, and is the target of all the claims Microsoft was making with regard to the Object-orientedness of their new windows 95. Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workplace_Shell mentions some important attributes of a truely object-oriented gui. Someone mentioned inheritance and polymorphism. These are two products of true object oriented gui design. Applications inherit the ability to manipulate and use whatever objects exist in the system. A word processor is not limited to just text files, for example, or to only the files the programmer originally set out for it. The system allows the applications to grow in functionality as new object types are developed/assembled by other applications or the user. I gather, though I have not had the opportunity to play with it, that the Next Gui was also extreme in its object-orientedness, though I can't see that from MACOS (its inheritor), I understood that to be the case? At any rate, if you want a fantastic example of a object-oriented graphical user interface, check out the Workplace Shell. Jeff From technoid6502 at gmail.com Sun Oct 28 12:36:28 2018 From: technoid6502 at gmail.com (Jeffrey S. Worley) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2018 13:36:28 -0400 Subject: The DosFish (object oriented GUIS) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This was circulating in 1995/6. IBM had been shipping the very good OS/2 for some years and Microsoft was trying to catch up. Someone did a very nice parody. Jeff *****The Legend of the Pea Sea***** Long ago, in the days when all disks flopped in the breeze and the writing of words was on a star, the Blue Giant dug for the people the Pea Sea. But he needed a creature who could sail the waters, and would need for support but few rams. So the Gateskeeper, who was said to be both micro and soft, fashioned a Dosfish, who was small and spry, and could swim the narrow sixteen-bit channel. But the Dosfish was not bright, and could be taught few tricks. His alphabet had no A's, B's, or Q's, but a mere 640 K's, and the size of his file cabinet was limited by his own fat. At first the people loved the Dosfish, for he was the only one who could swim the Pea Sea. But the people soon grew tired of commanding his line, and complained that he could neither be dragged nor dropped. "Forsooth," they cried, "the Dosfish can only do one job at a time, and of names he knows only eight and three." And many of them left the Pea Sea for good, and went off in search of the Magic Apple. Although many went, far more stayed, because admittance to the Pea Sea was cheap. So the Gateskeeper studied the Magic Apple, and rested awhile in the Parc of the XerOx, and he made a Window that could ride on the Dosfish and do its thinking for it. But the Window was slow, and it would break when the Dosfish got confused. So most people contented themselves with the Dosfish. Now it came to pass that the Blue Giant came upon the Gateskeeper, and spoke thus: "Come, let us make of ourselves something greater than the Dosfish." The Blue Giant seemed like a humbug, so they called the new creature Oz II. Now Oz II was smarter than the Dosfish, as most things are. It could drag and drop, and could keep files without becoming fat. But the people cared for it not. So the Blue Giant and the Gateskeeper promised another Oz II, to be called Oz II Too, that could swim fast in the new, 32-bit wide Pea Sea. Then lo, a strange miracle occurred. Although the Window that rode on the Dosfish was slow, it was pretty, and the third Window was prettiest of all. And the people began to like the third Window, and to use it. So the Gateskeeper turned to the Blue Giant and said, "Fie on thee, for I need thee not. Keep thy Oz II Too, and I shall make of my Window an Entity that will not need the Dosfish, and will swim in the 32-bit Pea Sea." Years passed, and the workshops of the Gateskeeper and the Blue Giant were many times overrun by insects. And the people went on using their Dosfish with a Window; even though the Dosfish would from time to time become confused and die, it could always be revived with three fingers. Then there came a day when the Blue Giant let forth his Oz II Too onto the world. The Oz II Too was indeed mighty, and awesome, and required a great ram, and the world was changed not a whit. For the people said, "It is indeed great, but we see little application for it." And they were doubtful, because the Blue Giant had met with the Magic Apple, and together they were fashioning a Taligent, and the Taligent was made of objects, and was most pink. Now the Gateskeeper had grown ambitious, and as he had been ambitious before he grew, he was now more ambitious still. So he protected his Window Entity with great security, and made its net work both in serving and with peers. And the Entity would swim, not only in the Pea Sea, but in the Oceans of Great Risk. "Yea," the Gateskeeper declared, "though my entity will require a greater ram than Oz II Too, it will be more powerful than a world of Eunuchs." And so the Gateskeeper prepared to unleash his Entity to the world, in all but two cities. For he promised that a greater Window, a greater Entity, and even a greater Dosfish would appear one day in Chicago and Cairo, and it too would be built of objects. Now the Eunuchs who lived in the Oceans of Great Risk, and who scorned the Pea Sea, began to look upon their world with fear. For the Pea Sea had grown and great ships were sailing in it, the Entity was about to invade their Oceans, and it was rumored that files would be named in letters greater than eight. And the Eunuchs looked upon the Pea Sea, and many of them thought to immigrate. Within the Oceans of Great Risk were many Sun Worshippers, and they had wanted to excel, and make their words perfect, and do their jobs as easy as one-two-three. And what's more, many of them no longer wanted to pay for the Risk. So the Sun Lord went to the Pea Sea, and got himself eighty-sixed. And taking the next step was He of the NextStep, who had given up building his boxes of black. And he proclaimed loudly that he could help anyone make wondrous soft wares, then admitted meekly that only those who know him could use those wares, and he was made of objects, and required the biggest ram of all. And the people looked out upon the Pea Sea, and they were sore amazed. And sore confused. And sore sore. And that is why, to this day, Ozes, Entities, and Eunuchs battle on the shores of the Pea Sea, but the people still travel on the simple Dosfish. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Oct 28 12:53:06 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2018 17:53:06 -0000 Subject: DEC 8640 Pinout Message-ID: <009b01d46ee7$1506e0a0$3f14a1e0$@ntlworld.com> I am trying to trace the reason why the CPU on my Pro 350 is apparently being constantly reset. I have reached a DEC 8640 chip. Does anyone have a pinout for it, perhaps even a datasheet, so I can understand what it is supposed to do and whether the pin is an input or an output? Thanks Rob From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Oct 28 13:04:28 2018 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2018 18:04:28 +0000 Subject: DEC 8640 Pinout In-Reply-To: <009b01d46ee7$1506e0a0$3f14a1e0$@ntlworld.com> References: <009b01d46ee7$1506e0a0$3f14a1e0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 5:53 PM Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > I am trying to trace the reason why the CPU on my Pro 350 is apparently > being constantly reset. I have reached a DEC 8640 chip. Does anyone have a > pinout for it, perhaps even a datasheet, so I can understand what it is > supposed to do and whether the pin is an input or an output? > I've sent the data sheet by private e-mail. Have you looked at the Pro380 printset on bitsavers? The reset input on the J11 chip in that machine comes from the DCOK pin on the power supply (Pin 1 of the PSU connector). It's also buffered by an 8640 for other bits of the systen. I would not be surprised if the Pro 350 is similar. Are you_sure_ the DCOK pin on the power supply is stable and not oscillating? -tony From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Oct 28 13:07:25 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2018 14:07:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC 8640 Pinout Message-ID: <20181028180725.265C318C0D8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Rob Jarratt > DEC 8640 chip. Does anyone have a pinout for it, perhaps even a > datasheet, That's almost certainly a DS8640; a quad NOR unified bus receiver. Data sheets for the are readily available. Noel From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Oct 28 13:10:43 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2018 18:10:43 -0000 Subject: DEC 8640 Pinout In-Reply-To: References: <009b01d46ee7$1506e0a0$3f14a1e0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <00ac01d46ee9$8b071700$a1154500$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Tony Duell [mailto:ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com] > Sent: 28 October 2018 18:04 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Jarratt RMA ; General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: DEC 8640 Pinout > > On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 5:53 PM Rob Jarratt via cctalk > wrote: > > > > I am trying to trace the reason why the CPU on my Pro 350 is > > apparently being constantly reset. I have reached a DEC 8640 chip. > > Does anyone have a pinout for it, perhaps even a datasheet, so I can > > understand what it is supposed to do and whether the pin is an input or an > output? > > > > I've sent the data sheet by private e-mail. > > Have you looked at the Pro380 printset on bitsavers? The reset input on the > J11 chip in that machine comes from the DCOK pin on the power supply (Pin > 1 of the PSU connector). It's also buffered by an 8640 for other bits of the > systen. I would not be surprised if the Pro 350 is similar. > > Are you_sure_ the DCOK pin on the power supply is stable and not > oscillating? > Thanks for the datasheet. I have to say I am not totally convinced that I have correctly identified the reset pin on the F11 because there seems to be a lot of logic behind it. This particular path I am pursuing now seems a bit more promising though. I have not checked the DC OK pin yet as I wasn't sure which one it was and I was hoping my tracing would take me back to the PSU, but I haven't reached it yet. I suppose I have been assuming that the LED means it is OK, but perhaps it isn't. Hopefully this 8640 will take me closer. When you say it is pin 1 on the connector, which side are you counting from? Thanks Rob From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Oct 28 13:14:38 2018 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2018 18:14:38 +0000 Subject: DEC 8640 Pinout In-Reply-To: <00ac01d46ee9$8b071700$a1154500$@ntlworld.com> References: <009b01d46ee7$1506e0a0$3f14a1e0$@ntlworld.com> <00ac01d46ee9$8b071700$a1154500$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 6:10 PM Rob Jarratt wrote: > Thanks for the datasheet. I have to say I am not totally convinced that I have correctly identified the reset pin on the F11 because there seems to be a lot of logic behind it. This particular path I am pursuing now seems a bit more promising though. I have not checked the DC OK pin yet as I wasn't sure which one it was and I was hoping my tracing would take me back to the PSU, but I haven't reached it yet. I suppose I have been assuming that the LED means it is OK, but perhaps it isn't. Hopefully this 8640 will take me closer. When you say it is pin 1 on the connector, which side are you counting from? No idea how the pins are numbered. But the Pro380 printset seems to show pin 2 as the polarising key.And the pin at the other end of the connector is logic ground which you must be able to check. That printset includes a schematic of the PSU which might help too. -tony From jonelson126 at gmail.com Sat Oct 27 21:25:28 2018 From: jonelson126 at gmail.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 21:25:28 -0500 Subject: source for smt probe clip In-Reply-To: <7494aeac-c0d1-a94f-1d5b-6c3cf9566f2b@bitsavers.org> References: <7494aeac-c0d1-a94f-1d5b-6c3cf9566f2b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5BD51E18.80701@email.wustl.edu> On 10/27/2018 06:19 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Has anyone seen a source for these clips? > > http://bitsavers.org/mysteries/salea_clip.JPG > > They come with the Salae logic analyzer, and are like the HP logic analyzer clips > in that the wire is detachable, instead of the common style you can buy > where you have to solder on a wire. > > HP and Tek both made ultra-micro grabbers for use with logic analyzers. I've got a few for the Tek 9100/1240 series analyzers. They have an anodized or painted metal tube with two springy wires in it. The wires have bends right at the end, and the button extends the wires, opening up the grabber. You might check eBay under logic analyzer accessories or the like. The one you link to looks just a little different, but I think is somewhat similar. Jon From jzatar2 at illinois.edu Sun Oct 28 02:49:04 2018 From: jzatar2 at illinois.edu (Joseph Zatarski) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2018 02:49:04 -0500 Subject: Data Systems Design DSD-4140 microcode PROMs Message-ID: <49143ae7-6550-4ba2-6c2c-1aa8862825c8@illinois.edu> Hello Everyone, We found a PDP-11 QBUS card cage with a KDF11 and some other cards (RAM, ROM, some basic peripherals) which included a DSD-4140 card. Unfortunately, the DSD-4140 is missing one of it's microcode PROMs for some reason. Does anyone else have one of these cards? It'd be really helpful if we could get some dumps of the 4 microcode PROMs so we can compare what we have and look into replacing what we don't have with an adapted modern part. (and if anyone goes to the trouble to read the 4 microcode PROMs, there's also an 82S137 that deserves to be dumped). Here's a picture of the card in question: https://i.imgur.com/tzYjPYF.jpg Regards, Joe Zatarski From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Sun Oct 28 03:21:47 2018 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2018 09:21:47 +0100 Subject: Cossor/Raytheon DIDS-400 Message-ID: <3AF8FEC8-C8F2-479E-96B4-2C752B0F1459@vmssoftware.com> I just rescued a Cossor DIDS-400 terminal from ending up at the garbage dump. Cossor was a UK company, that ended up as a Raytheon subsidiary, and the Cossor DIDS-400 was marketed as the Raytheon DIDS-400 in the US. My terminal is model no 402-2/C15, part no D/GA 800260, serial no 023, option table code 321121. Date codes on the IC?s are in 1968. Internally, there?s some interesting technology; ITT MIC9xx DTL IC?s, a piano wire delay line for character storage, and a Raytheon Symbolray monoscope tube as the character generator. I?d love to get this terminal working again, and to that end I?m looking for any kind of service documentation (any other documentation would be welcome too, as I have nothing). The power supply in this terminal consists of two parts, manufactured by Best Products Ltd, of Felixstowe, Suffolk, models 508-L (low voltage supply), and 508-H (high-voltage supply). Any documentation on these would be most welcome, too. Kind regards, Camiel Vanderhoeven From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 28 04:21:41 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2018 06:21:41 -0300 Subject: Cossor/Raytheon DIDS-400 In-Reply-To: <3AF8FEC8-C8F2-479E-96B4-2C752B0F1459@vmssoftware.com> References: <3AF8FEC8-C8F2-479E-96B4-2C752B0F1459@vmssoftware.com> Message-ID: On 2018-10-28 5:21 a.m., Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctech wrote: > I just rescued a Cossor DIDS-400 terminal from ending up at the garbage dump. What a fantastic rescue. I for one will be very interested in our new terminal overlords--- I mean, hearing about the restoration. Will you be (v)blogging it somewhere? --Toby From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Sun Oct 28 10:47:47 2018 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2018 16:47:47 +0100 Subject: Cossor/Raytheon DIDS-400 In-Reply-To: References: <3AF8FEC8-C8F2-479E-96B4-2C752B0F1459@vmssoftware.com> Message-ID: On 10/28/18, 10:21 AM, "cctech on behalf of Toby Thain via cctech" wrote: On 2018-10-28 5:21 a.m., Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctech wrote: > I just rescued a Cossor DIDS-400 terminal from ending up at the garbage dump. What a fantastic rescue. I for one will be very interested in our new terminal overlords--- I mean, hearing about the restoration. Will you be (v)blogging it somewhere? --Toby Yes, the first installment is here: https://vaxbarn.com/index.php/feat/41-acquisitions/677-saving-private-cossor Camiel From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Sun Oct 28 13:03:06 2018 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2018 19:03:06 +0100 Subject: DEC 8640 Pinout In-Reply-To: <009b01d46ee7$1506e0a0$3f14a1e0$@ntlworld.com> References: <009b01d46ee7$1506e0a0$3f14a1e0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <61FCE997-161D-4CCF-8D4E-8867380C78E5@vmssoftware.com> 8640 looks like a date code; most dec chip numbers begin with "DC". ?On 10/28/18, 6:53 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Rob Jarratt via cctalk" wrote: I am trying to trace the reason why the CPU on my Pro 350 is apparently being constantly reset. I have reached a DEC 8640 chip. Does anyone have a pinout for it, perhaps even a datasheet, so I can understand what it is supposed to do and whether the pin is an input or an output? Thanks Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Oct 28 14:44:02 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2018 19:44:02 -0000 Subject: DEC 8640 Pinout In-Reply-To: References: <009b01d46ee7$1506e0a0$3f14a1e0$@ntlworld.com> <00ac01d46ee9$8b071700$a1154500$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <00ad01d46ef6$93d2c160$bb784420$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Tony Duell [mailto:ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com] > Sent: 28 October 2018 18:15 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk > Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: DEC 8640 Pinout > > On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 6:10 PM Rob Jarratt > wrote: > > > Thanks for the datasheet. I have to say I am not totally convinced that I > have correctly identified the reset pin on the F11 because there seems to be > a lot of logic behind it. This particular path I am pursuing now seems a bit > more promising though. I have not checked the DC OK pin yet as I wasn't > sure which one it was and I was hoping my tracing would take me back to the > PSU, but I haven't reached it yet. I suppose I have been assuming that the > LED means it is OK, but perhaps it isn't. Hopefully this 8640 will take me > closer. When you say it is pin 1 on the connector, which side are you counting > from? > > > No idea how the pins are numbered. But the Pro380 printset seems to show > pin 2 as the polarising key.And the pin at the other end of the connector is > logic ground which you must be able to check. > Knowing the 8640 pinout now I was able to trace one of its inputs to the PSU connector, which appears to confirm that DC OK is next to the polarising pin. I can now confirm that DC OK is stable. It seems from my reverse engineering of the schematic that this allows other signals to control the reset state of the F11, but these other signals appear to be driven by clock signals, which is rather confusing at the moment. > That printset includes a schematic of the PSU which might help too. > > -tony From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Sun Oct 28 15:30:43 2018 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2018 16:30:43 -0400 Subject: DEC 8640 Pinout In-Reply-To: <61FCE997-161D-4CCF-8D4E-8867380C78E5@vmssoftware.com> References: <009b01d46ee7$1506e0a0$3f14a1e0$@ntlworld.com> <61FCE997-161D-4CCF-8D4E-8867380C78E5@vmssoftware.com> Message-ID: SOme history that might come in handy - pbirkel at gmail.com March 8th, 2014, 11:37 PM The DEC PDP-11 Unibus Handbook identifies three standard ICs for use when connecting to Unibus lines: Bus Receiver - 8640 Quad NOR Bus Transceiver - 8641 Quad Bus Driver - 8861 Quad NAND It seems to be generally agreed that the 8861 driver/transmitter can be substituted by the 7439 Quad 2 Input NAND Buffer O.C. There seems to be no recognized physical substitute for the 8640, at least in part because it uses the 1 & 8 pins rather than 7 & 14 pins for GND/VCC, respectively (see Figure 1-25). Is that correct? What have folks been doing when needing to physically replace one of these -- substitute from a sacrificial module? For new designs, or rewiring old ones (dead-bug?), is there a generally agreed logical substitute for the 8640? Unibus handbook Figure 1-30 does specify the RC-equivalent input for this IC but I have not as yet tried to cross-walk it against well-known SN74xx-series chips. I imagine that I'm the umpteenth person to encounter this problem, so before I try to rediscover fire I'm hoping that someone else could share their torch of knowledge :->? On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 2:19 PM Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctalk wrote: > > 8640 looks like a date code; most dec chip numbers begin with "DC". > > ?On 10/28/18, 6:53 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Rob Jarratt via cctalk" wrote: > > I am trying to trace the reason why the CPU on my Pro 350 is apparently > being constantly reset. I have reached a DEC 8640 chip. Does anyone have a > pinout for it, perhaps even a datasheet, so I can understand what it is > supposed to do and whether the pin is an input or an output? > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > > > > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sun Oct 28 17:16:22 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2018 15:16:22 -0700 Subject: The DosFish (object oriented GUIS) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <22203ACA-BDD7-49B0-B6EF-1E9CC8C9465F@gmail.com> That?s a great one! Best summary of this thread so far. Thanks for sharing. Marc > On Oct 28, 2018, at 10:36 AM, Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote: > > This was circulating in 1995/6. IBM had been shipping the very good > OS/2 for some years and Microsoft was trying to catch up. Someone did > a very nice parody. > > Jeff > > *****The Legend of the Pea Sea***** > Long ago, in the days when all disks flopped in the breeze and the > writing of words was on a star, the Blue Giant dug for the people the > Pea Sea. But he needed a creature who could sail the waters, and would > need for support but few rams. > So the Gateskeeper, who was said to be both micro and soft, fashioned a > Dosfish, who was small and spry, and could swim the narrow sixteen-bit > channel. But the Dosfish was not bright, and could be taught few > tricks. His alphabet had no A's, B's, or Q's, but a mere 640 K's, and > the size of his file cabinet was limited by his own fat. > At first the people loved the Dosfish, for he was the only one who > could swim the Pea Sea. But the people soon grew tired of commanding > his line, and complained that he could neither be dragged nor dropped. > "Forsooth," they cried, "the Dosfish can only do one job at a time, and > of names he knows only eight and three." And many of them left the Pea > Sea for good, and went off in search of the Magic Apple. > Although many went, far more stayed, because admittance to the Pea Sea > was cheap. So the Gateskeeper studied the Magic Apple, and rested > awhile in the Parc of the XerOx, and he made a Window that could ride > on the Dosfish and do its thinking for it. But the Window was slow, and > it would break when the Dosfish got confused. So most people contented > themselves with the Dosfish. > Now it came to pass that the Blue Giant came upon the Gateskeeper, and > spoke thus: "Come, let us make of ourselves something greater than the > Dosfish." The Blue Giant seemed like a humbug, so they called the new > creature Oz II. > Now Oz II was smarter than the Dosfish, as most things are. It could > drag and drop, and could keep files without becoming fat. But the > people cared for it not. So the Blue Giant and the Gateskeeper promised > another Oz II, to be called Oz II Too, that could swim fast in the new, > 32-bit wide Pea Sea. > Then lo, a strange miracle occurred. Although the Window that rode on > the Dosfish was slow, it was pretty, and the third Window was prettiest > of all. And the people began to like the third Window, and to use it. > So the Gateskeeper turned to the Blue Giant and said, "Fie on thee, for > I need thee not. Keep thy Oz II Too, and I shall make of my Window an > Entity that will not need the Dosfish, and will swim in the 32-bit Pea > Sea." > Years passed, and the workshops of the Gateskeeper and the Blue Giant > were many times overrun by insects. And the people went on using their > Dosfish with a Window; even though the Dosfish would from time to time > become confused and die, it could always be revived with three fingers. > Then there came a day when the Blue Giant let forth his Oz II Too onto > the world. The Oz II Too was indeed mighty, and awesome, and required a > great ram, and the world was changed not a whit. For the people said, > "It is indeed great, but we see little application for it." And they > were doubtful, because the Blue Giant had met with the Magic Apple, and > together they were fashioning a Taligent, and the Taligent was made of > objects, and was most pink. > Now the Gateskeeper had grown ambitious, and as he had been ambitious > before he grew, he was now more ambitious still. So he protected his > Window Entity with great security, and made its net work both in > serving and with peers. And the Entity would swim, not only in the Pea > Sea, but in the Oceans of Great Risk. "Yea," the Gateskeeper declared, > "though my entity will require a greater ram than Oz II Too, it will be > more powerful than a world of Eunuchs." > And so the Gateskeeper prepared to unleash his Entity to the world, in > all but two cities. For he promised that a greater Window, a greater > Entity, and even a greater Dosfish would appear one day in Chicago and > Cairo, and it too would be built of objects. > Now the Eunuchs who lived in the Oceans of Great Risk, and who scorned > the Pea Sea, began to look upon their world with fear. For the Pea Sea > had grown and great ships were sailing in it, the Entity was about to > invade their Oceans, and it was rumored that files would be named in > letters greater than eight. And the Eunuchs looked upon the Pea Sea, > and many of them thought to immigrate. > Within the Oceans of Great Risk were many Sun Worshippers, and they had > wanted to excel, and make their words perfect, and do their jobs as > easy as one-two-three. And what's more, many of them no longer wanted > to pay for the Risk. So the Sun Lord went to the Pea Sea, and got > himself eighty-sixed. > And taking the next step was He of the NextStep, who had given up > building his boxes of black. And he proclaimed loudly that he could > help anyone make wondrous soft wares, then admitted meekly that only > those who know him could use those wares, and he was made of objects, > and required the biggest ram of all. > And the people looked out upon the Pea Sea, and they were sore amazed. > And sore confused. And sore sore. And that is why, to this day, Ozes, > Entities, and Eunuchs battle on the shores of the Pea Sea, but the > people still travel on the simple Dosfish. > > From chd at chdickman.com Sun Oct 28 21:34:10 2018 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2018 22:34:10 -0400 Subject: pdp-11 ethernet boot Message-ID: The boot ROMs for uPDP-11 contain loaders for XH (ethernet) was there any kind of standard for the server? It tries to load from a MOP DL server and I have modified mopd from NetBSD to respond and load 2.11bsd a.out. So I have a solution, but was curious if there was some DEC standard. From pat at vax11.net Sun Oct 28 22:02:08 2018 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2018 23:02:08 -0400 Subject: pdp-11 ethernet boot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 10:34 PM Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote: > > The boot ROMs for uPDP-11 contain loaders for XH (ethernet) was there any > kind of standard for the server? I'd guess that it was mostly for DECserver 500/550s to boot off of a VAX/VMS host. So... yes, a MOP server running on a VAX. Pat From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Mon Oct 29 01:54:14 2018 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2018 23:54:14 -0700 Subject: HP-Apollo 9000/425t RAM Message-ID: <630EB7CD-FCC3-456A-BE1C-DBC661B4E782@eschatologist.net> I?ve come into an HP-Apollo 9000/425t which uses memory boards with 72-pin headers rather than using SIMMs. Based on what I can see in pictures online, the boards themselves don?t appear to be anything special (they just carry TMS444000 etc. DRAM) and the connections aren?t anything special either, so I figure it shouldn?t be hard to design a SIMM adapter. Does anyone have or know where I could find the pinout and timings? -- Chris From lproven at gmail.com Mon Oct 29 05:35:33 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 11:35:33 +0100 Subject: Object-oriented OS [was: Re: Microsoft-Paul Allen] In-Reply-To: <20181027033251.GA5524@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <20181027033251.GA5524@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Oct 2018 at 05:33, Tomasz Rola wrote: I found this post incoherent and very hard to follow. I will therefore limit myself to commenting to the responses direct to me. OK, apart from: > Ok guys, just to make things clearer, here are two pages from wiki: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-oriented_operating_system This is perhaps the single worst article I've seen on Wikipedia. Poorly written, technically ignorant, mostly nonsense. > Plus, some kind of system programming language - I had no idea what > Smalltalk was and I still have no idea but I might have swallowed > that. Right, then go learn a bit about it. You need that to understand this subject properly, I submit. > On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 04:14:34PM +0200, Liam Proven wrote: > Very true, but if someone promises and does not deliver, who is he? [1] A marketing person? [2] Behaving in a 100% normal way for the IT industry? > And nobody makes a small print saying "this is just marketing > material, so do not count on it". If I cannot count on it, why waste > my time? You need to develop much stronger bullsh1t filters. > No objection, except "everybody copied". I have seen those copies, > including Gnomes and KDEs (up to about 2014, when I gave up trying) > and considered them increasingly dysfunctional. So? I didn't say they were _good_ copies. I made no judgement of quality at all. > The only thing that > was better than original Windows GUI was stability (but after > Windows2000 this one improved a lot, IMHO). The NT family was always far more stable, not starting with W2K. > And I was able to use > virtual desktops and they did not suck (while I tried few virtual > desktops on Win95 and they sucked like black hole and then some). Win10 finally has working ones. > What do I care if other people voluntarily push screwdrivers > through the random body cavities of their own? Hey, sounds like golden > opportunity for sharp hardware shop. I do not see the relevance of this unpleasant image. > This should be a responce to your message in this other thread, but I > am not sure if I have this many time, so, as you claimed that Windows > wrote a new book of UI or something: > > :: Interface Hall of Shame / - Windows95 - > http://hallofshame.gp.co.at/msoft.htm Some of these are valid points. Some are quibbling about details. Some display a serious lack of understanding of real ordinary people and how they interact with computers. Some show a deep lack of understanding of history -- bear in mind this was a v4 product, after many point-releases too. So, to pick an important example, for instance, it displays apparently-complete ignorance of the Win3 model of "MDI" -- multiple document inheritance -- which was an important design principle of Windows 3.x and OS/2 1.x and which MS started to systematically eliminate in Win9x and IBM started to eliminate in OS/2 2.x. This is a big, important concept and I don't even see it _mentioned_. Some are just cheap shots. I don't consider it overall to be particularly interesting or incisive. You are free to if you wish, of course. > And yet I choose to use Linux harder, just because it did job, whereas > Windows could not (unless I wanted unreliable computer, and I cannot > use unreliable when reliable is available or I get flaming mad). Fine. Good for you. So? What does this say about the UIs of the OSes? > As a side note, I do not claim Linux is oh so the bestest of them > all. It just can do things I consider important while Windows could > not (every time I try using it in serious manner, after about hour my > index finger wants to fall off from constant mouse stimulation). And > some time ago Linux started accumulating certain fringe elements, so a > jump to another platform is necessary. All OSes suck. Some suck slightly more than others. Some, e.g. BeOS or EPOC, slightly less. > I am amazed too. Apparently you do with Windows something else than I > would, and if it works for you, I am cool. I don't use it at all if I can avoid it. However, I did spend about 25y supporting it. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Oct 29 05:36:27 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 11:36:27 +0100 Subject: SUN keyboard for grabs In-Reply-To: <20181027165928.GA35129@night.db.net> References: <20181027165928.GA35129@night.db.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Oct 2018 at 18:59, Diane Bruce via cctalk wrote: > > I am tossing a pile of old PC keyboards but found one SUN type C keyboard. > It's missing a few keys :-( but might interest anyone needing spare parts. Get 'em on eBay. Don't underestimate the zeal of keyboard collectors. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com witter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Oct 29 07:28:52 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 08:28:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 70's computers Message-ID: <20181029122852.61F8B18C0CE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Chuck Guzis > Danny Hillis' CM-1 also used lots of 1-bit processors. Does anyone know why they didn't catch on? Was it something like 'commodity 'ordinary' processors became so cheap one could build large parallel machines out of them, and each node had a lot more computing capability', or something like that? I wonder how many CM's are still in existence at this point? Noel From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Oct 29 07:56:33 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 12:56:33 +0000 Subject: pdp-11 ethernet boot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/28/18 11:02 PM, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 10:34 PM Charles Dickman via cctalk > wrote: >> The boot ROMs for uPDP-11 contain loaders for XH (ethernet) was there any >> kind of standard for the server? > I'd guess that it was mostly for DECserver 500/550s to boot off of a > VAX/VMS host. > > So... yes, a MOP server running on a VAX. > I think Terry Kennedy wrote one for RSTS as well. My guess is it could have been used to download code to boot pretty much any network aware OS.? Think of it as the Bootblock on a disk.? A first stage loader that loaded a second stage loader that could then load pretty much anything. bill From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Oct 29 08:11:16 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 09:11:16 -0400 Subject: pdp-11 ethernet boot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Oct 28, 2018, at 10:34 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote: > > The boot ROMs for uPDP-11 contain loaders for XH (ethernet) was there any > kind of standard for the server? > > It tries to load from a MOP DL server and I have modified mopd from NetBSD > to respond and load 2.11bsd a.out. So I have a solution, but was curious if > there was some DEC standard. It depends on what you mean by "standard". The protocol is of course defined precisely, that is the MOP protocol. You can implement your own MOP server in a few days from that document. What the data means is entirely up to the client. MOP is basically a data transfer protocol, similar to TFTP; it doesn't say what the bits mean. There is the "parameter load" message with fields that have names suggesting some meaning, but even there what the client does with those is up to the client. There is no standard for any of this that I'm aware of. Yet another question is how the data is stored on the server (if at all). Since the typical use of MOP is to load a bare metal software image, a logical way to store it on the server is in the form of a linker output file for such a bare metal image. I think that you'd typically find a ".sys" file used that way. Here too I'm not aware of any standard. There proably were some conventions since the developers responsible for the client software would have to know how to package up that software into kits that could be installed on servers. But I never saw any documentation for that. As far as using a.out, sure, that could work. The real question is how you build the software that you want downloaded, and what the client side loader is looking for. If the client side starts with a secondary loader request, you can use that load a loader of your own that brings across the bits in whatever way you like. For that matter, if you prefer TFTP you could load a TFTP client... :-) paul From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 29 08:11:14 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 06:11:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Updates at retroarchive.org... Message-ID: First up is the addition of Crescent Software's entire product line. The company produced a number of good library suites in the late 80s and early 90's. Note these are all DOS products - the Windows product line was sold in the early 90's. http://annex.retroarchive.org/crescent/index.html When the documentation arrives, I'll be paying the IA to get it all scanned. It's a lot cheaper than me buying a Scribe scanner or building a DIY version. :) Next up is a HUGE CD-ROM and FTP site archive I've been working on. http://www.retroarchive.org/cdrom/index.html What I've done here is pull CD-ROMs from the Internet Archive and make them easily browseable. I've also extracted the contents of each of the zip, etc. files and created index files for those as well. The goal was to make the material more easily accessible for both us meat bags and search spider bots. This is going to be a long term project that will end when I've either exhausted the available CD-ROMs on the IA, or I die, whichever comes first. ;) There's a number of holes in the sets that are on the IA - if you've got a disc that would fill a hole, please consider making an ISO of the disc and upload that along with a photo of the disc to the IA and then let me know so I can get it processed. I'm also looking to acquire a manual set for QuickBASIC 4.5 and the Microsoft Professional Development System 7.1. If you have either one, please contact me! Thanks! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From classiccmp at crash.com Mon Oct 29 08:15:31 2018 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 06:15:31 -0700 Subject: 70's computers In-Reply-To: <20181029122852.61F8B18C0CE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181029122852.61F8B18C0CE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <7039d1b9-4869-e967-0af7-778018f35288@crash.com> On 10/29/2018 05:28, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > Does anyone know why they didn't catch on? Was it something like 'commodity > 'ordinary' processors became so cheap one could build large parallel machines > out of them, and each node had a lot more computing capability', or something > like that? My best recollection as a distant observer, for the neural/cognitive modeling it was conceived for, there weren't enough labs with enough grant money to support the company. And as part of the "general" supercomputer segment there were limited problems you could address with the original 1-bit CPU model, and producing code for it was a big challenge coming from more traditional systems. A lot of that may have been alleviated with the later designs built on mainstream (SPARC, Alpha) CPUs, but by then I think there were more alternatives chasing those dollars. And the company's, er, management issues were not helping. Some links for further reading: "Rise and Fall of Thinking Machines" - https://www.inc.com/magazine/19950915/2622.html MIT CSAIL "Final Report" - http://courses.csail.mit.edu/6.972/TMC%20Corp.html > I wonder how many CM's are still in existence at this point? That's an interesting question. The same challenges for other big iron come into play, including critical dependence on a FEP from Symbolics, DEC, Sun, HP, etc. --S. From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Oct 29 11:39:36 2018 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 17:39:36 +0100 Subject: Desktop Metaphor In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <20181029163936.GA77310@beast.freibergnet.de> Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 10:16 PM Richard Loken via cctalk > wrote: > > > > I am replying to this email on a FreeBSD 10.3 box and Motif. I don't > > know what FreeBSD runs out of the box because I immediately delete it > > and install Motif. > > FreeBSD doesn't run *any* graphical user interface out of the box. > What you end up with after install of the FreeBSD OS is a console with > a login prompt. > As any _real_ operating system should be, IMNSHO. > > After you have logged in, you can (of course) install Xorg and your > selection of desktop environments (or a wm + extras if you prefer > that) via the package system (or ports, if you prefer to wait for > compiling from source). > > > FreeBSD may not have the installed base of Linux but it has a its fans. > > Yes, this workstation runs FreeBSD 10.4 and Xfce. > -- > Regards, > Torfinn Ingolfsen FreeBSD 11.2-stable and Mate Desktop here. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Oct 29 11:43:37 2018 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 17:43:37 +0100 Subject: Desktop Metaphor In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <20181029164337.GB77310@beast.freibergnet.de> Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 10/23/18 3:29 PM, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk wrote: > > >> FreeBSD may not have the installed base of Linux but it has a its fans. > > > > Yes, this workstation runs FreeBSD 10.4 and Xfce. > > I prefer OpenBSD myself for mission-critical stuff--the nearly paranoid > attitude to new software is unusual to say the least. Even old > packages that have had demonstrated security issues are omitted. You > want to use telnet? Good, find a version somewhere and convert and > compile it yourself--we're not even going to give you a telnet client, > much less a host. > > Was VirtualBox or QEMU ever offered as a standard package on OpenBSD? I > don't think so... > > --Chuck > For mission critical stuff this may be ok, but what's the advantage for the desktop if you can't even run Virtualbox or Qemu, simh, cpmsim, dosbox and other related stuff? The same problem on Dragonfly, Nice File system (Hammer,Hammer2) but.... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Oct 29 11:49:50 2018 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 17:49:50 +0100 Subject: Astounding Asking Price In-Reply-To: References: <007501d46bb1$acfb49c0$06f1dd40$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20181029164950.GC77310@beast.freibergnet.de> Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > >It looks nice externally, and it has the pedestal, which is nice, but the > >seller has not even give the spec or posted pics of the innards and it is > >"untested". At that price I would expect a bit more information.. > > Instant alarm bells to me are a seller posting a London address but the > item is 'for pickup only in Budapest, Hungary' > I'm pretty sure there is nothing wrong with them, I (as a german) have only positive experiences with people from Hungary. Hungary is EU like Germany and UK is still EU.. that makes it possible to buy and sell w/o any customs, only the shipping costs may be higher. You can place your stuff in the best market you think..that's all. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From seefriek at gmail.com Mon Oct 29 11:56:05 2018 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 12:56:05 -0400 Subject: i860: Re: modern stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >the i860 found at least a little niche on graphics boards, so somehow >not a complete failure ;-) I'd be mildly surprised if Intel ever made enough from selling i860s as GPUs to cover the cost of developing and marketing them. At the time, Intel was pushing them as their RISC processor, and put a lot into the program. Going to take over the world and all that. Maybe not a 'complete' failure...just mostly. From: Chuck Guzis >On 10/26/18 6:10 AM, Gordon Henderson via cctalk wrote: > >> However it was a royal PITA to code for although a 32-bit CPU, it would >> read memory 64 bits at a time (actually 128 IIRC to satisfy the cache), >> with half that 64-bit word being an instruction for the integer unit and >> half for the floating point unit, so you effectively had to build a >> floating point pipeline by hand coded instructions, so 8 (I think) >> instructions to load the pipeline, then each subsequent instruction >> would feed another value into the pipe, then another 8 at the end to >> empty it. Great for big matrix operations, rubbish for a single add of 2 >> FP numbers. > >My impression of the i860 was that it might have been fun for about 2 >weeks for which to code assembly, but after that, you'd really start >looking hard for an HLL to do the dirty work for you. While there's a >sense of accomplishment over looking at a page of painfully >hand-optimized code that manages to keep everything busy with no >"bubbles", you begin to wonder if there isn't a better way to spend your >life. It wasn't fun for the whole 2 weeks. And the i860 is Yet Another example of Intel claiming their compilers were going to be so smart that all the architectural complexity/warts will never be noticed. Wrong, and they didn't learn and said the same thing about Itanium. The interrupt stall issue that Gordon pointed out was so bad they were basically relegated to single-task software in the end. KJ From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Mon Oct 29 12:03:23 2018 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 10:03:23 -0700 Subject: Updates at retroarchive.org... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004001d46fa9$4fdaea10$ef90be30$@net> > Next up is a HUGE CD-ROM and FTP site archive I've been working on. > > http://www.retroarchive.org/cdrom/index.html > > What I've done here is pull CD-ROMs from the Internet Archive and make > them easily browseable. I've also extracted the contents of each of > the > zip, etc. files and created index files for those as well. The goal > was > to make the material more easily accessible for both us meat bags and > search spider bots. Very nice! Thank you for doing this! -Ali From rtomek at ceti.pl Mon Oct 29 12:13:52 2018 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 18:13:52 +0100 Subject: Updates at retroarchive.org... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20181029171352.GA1478@tau1.ceti.pl> On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 06:11:14AM -0700, geneb via cctalk wrote: > First up is the addition of Crescent Software's entire product line. > The company produced a number of good library suites in the late 80s > and early 90's. Note these are all DOS products - the Windows > product line was sold in the early 90's. [...] Wow. So many goodies. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 29 12:26:37 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 10:26:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Updates at retroarchive.org... In-Reply-To: <004001d46fa9$4fdaea10$ef90be30$@net> References: <004001d46fa9$4fdaea10$ef90be30$@net> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Oct 2018, Ali wrote: > >> Next up is a HUGE CD-ROM and FTP site archive I've been working on. >> >> http://www.retroarchive.org/cdrom/index.html >> >> What I've done here is pull CD-ROMs from the Internet Archive and make >> them easily browseable. I've also extracted the contents of each of >> the >> zip, etc. files and created index files for those as well. The goal >> was >> to make the material more easily accessible for both us meat bags and >> search spider bots. > > Very nice! Thank you for doing this! > You're welcome. It's been a fun project. It does suck up space fast though. Each CD unpacks to about between 1.2G and 1.7GB of data. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 29 12:34:21 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 10:34:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Updates at retroarchive.org... In-Reply-To: <20181029171352.GA1478@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20181029171352.GA1478@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Oct 2018, Tomasz Rola wrote: > On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 06:11:14AM -0700, geneb via cctalk wrote: >> First up is the addition of Crescent Software's entire product line. >> The company produced a number of good library suites in the late 80s >> and early 90's. Note these are all DOS products - the Windows >> product line was sold in the early 90's. > [...] > > Wow. So many goodies. There's more coming too. Pics of original install media, some corporate "swag", and a short historical write-up by Ethan Winer and maybe some others. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From alan at alanlee.org Mon Oct 29 13:12:58 2018 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 14:12:58 -0400 Subject: i860: Re: modern stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I know i960 is a very different beast, but was there ever any high level OSs that ran on it? Or was it pidgin-holed as a high speed embedded processor for storage controllers and NICs? I picked up a cache of i960 CPUs a couple years ago and they speak to me in tongues every time I pass by the shelf. -Alan On 2018-10-29 12:56, Ken Seefried via cctalk wrote: >> the i860 found at least a little niche on graphics boards, so somehow >> not a complete failure ;-) > > I'd be mildly surprised if Intel ever made enough from selling i860s > as GPUs to cover the cost of developing and marketing them. At the > time, Intel was pushing them as their RISC processor, and put a lot > into the program. Going to take over the world and all that. Maybe > not a 'complete' failure...just mostly. > > From: Chuck Guzis >> On 10/26/18 6:10 AM, Gordon Henderson via cctalk wrote: >> >>> However it was a royal PITA to code for although a 32-bit CPU, it >>> would >>> read memory 64 bits at a time (actually 128 IIRC to satisfy the >>> cache), >>> with half that 64-bit word being an instruction for the integer unit >>> and >>> half for the floating point unit, so you effectively had to build a >>> floating point pipeline by hand coded instructions, so 8 (I think) >>> instructions to load the pipeline, then each subsequent instruction >>> would feed another value into the pipe, then another 8 at the end to >>> empty it. Great for big matrix operations, rubbish for a single add >>> of 2 >>> FP numbers. >> >> My impression of the i860 was that it might have been fun for about 2 >> weeks for which to code assembly, but after that, you'd really start >> looking hard for an HLL to do the dirty work for you. While there's a >> sense of accomplishment over looking at a page of painfully >> hand-optimized code that manages to keep everything busy with no >> "bubbles", you begin to wonder if there isn't a better way to spend >> your >> life. > > It wasn't fun for the whole 2 weeks. And the i860 is Yet Another > example of Intel claiming their compilers were going to be so smart > that all the architectural complexity/warts will never be noticed. > Wrong, and they didn't learn and said the same thing about Itanium. > The interrupt stall issue that Gordon pointed out was so bad they were > basically relegated to single-task software in the end. > > KJ From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Mon Oct 29 14:32:59 2018 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 12:32:59 -0700 Subject: i860: Re: modern stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9F525070-4AA3-435B-84AD-60C30C3116C7@eschatologist.net> They were used in some X terminals, so there were at least high level enough operating systems to support an X11 server. -- Chris > On Oct 29, 2018, at 11:12 AM, alan--- via cctalk wrote: > > > I know i960 is a very different beast, but was there ever any high level OSs that ran on it? Or was it pidgin-holed as a high speed embedded processor for storage controllers and NICs? > > I picked up a cache of i960 CPUs a couple years ago and they speak to me in tongues every time I pass by the shelf. > > -Alan > > > On 2018-10-29 12:56, Ken Seefried via cctalk wrote: >>> the i860 found at least a little niche on graphics boards, so somehow >>> not a complete failure ;-) >> I'd be mildly surprised if Intel ever made enough from selling i860s >> as GPUs to cover the cost of developing and marketing them. At the >> time, Intel was pushing them as their RISC processor, and put a lot >> into the program. Going to take over the world and all that. Maybe >> not a 'complete' failure...just mostly. >> From: Chuck Guzis >>> On 10/26/18 6:10 AM, Gordon Henderson via cctalk wrote: >>>> However it was a royal PITA to code for although a 32-bit CPU, it would >>>> read memory 64 bits at a time (actually 128 IIRC to satisfy the cache), >>>> with half that 64-bit word being an instruction for the integer unit and >>>> half for the floating point unit, so you effectively had to build a >>>> floating point pipeline by hand coded instructions, so 8 (I think) >>>> instructions to load the pipeline, then each subsequent instruction >>>> would feed another value into the pipe, then another 8 at the end to >>>> empty it. Great for big matrix operations, rubbish for a single add of 2 >>>> FP numbers. >>> My impression of the i860 was that it might have been fun for about 2 >>> weeks for which to code assembly, but after that, you'd really start >>> looking hard for an HLL to do the dirty work for you. While there's a >>> sense of accomplishment over looking at a page of painfully >>> hand-optimized code that manages to keep everything busy with no >>> "bubbles", you begin to wonder if there isn't a better way to spend your >>> life. >> It wasn't fun for the whole 2 weeks. And the i860 is Yet Another >> example of Intel claiming their compilers were going to be so smart >> that all the architectural complexity/warts will never be noticed. >> Wrong, and they didn't learn and said the same thing about Itanium. >> The interrupt stall issue that Gordon pointed out was so bad they were >> basically relegated to single-task software in the end. >> KJ From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 29 14:43:33 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 12:43:33 -0700 Subject: Updates at retroarchive.org... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/29/18 6:11 AM, geneb via cctalk wrote: > This is going to be a long term project that will end when I've either exhausted the available CD-ROMs on the IA, or I > die, whichever comes first. ;) Even a full list of what CDs Jason has there w/o indexing would be helpful. Trying to figure out what is there is a nightmare. For a while, I had about 400gb of cd images on bitsavers until we ran out of disk space. I probably have a few hundred more gb I've read since then. I've slowly been trying to find a full set of physical disks from Walnut Creek for CHM's archive. From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Oct 29 14:43:18 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 12:43:18 -0700 Subject: Anyone have HP 24612-90013 A-Series Diagnostic Operating and Troubleshooting Manual? Message-ID: Does anyone have copies of these two manuals? 24612-90010 Introduction to the A-Series Computer Diagnostics Manual 24612-90013 A-Series Diagnostic Operating and Troubleshooting Manual They are referenced in this manual: RTE-A Primary System Software Installation Manual 92077-90038, April 1995, Rev 6200 http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/1000/RTE-A/92077-90038_RTE-A_PrimInst.pdf The hpmuseum.net site has some older versions of the 24612 manuals, which date from 1983. The final versions of those manuals would be nice to have. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 29 14:45:43 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 12:45:43 -0700 Subject: Anyone have HP 24612-90013 A-Series Diagnostic Operating and Troubleshooting Manual? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's likely we have it in the uncatalogued stuff we obtained when the 1000 division shut down but it's difficult to search through the paper right now. On 10/29/18 12:43 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone have copies of these two manuals? > > 24612-90010 Introduction to the A-Series Computer Diagnostics Manual > 24612-90013 A-Series Diagnostic Operating and Troubleshooting Manual > > They are referenced in this manual: > RTE-A Primary System Software Installation Manual > 92077-90038, April 1995, Rev 6200 > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/1000/RTE-A/92077-90038_RTE-A_PrimInst.pdf > > The hpmuseum.net site has some older versions of the 24612 manuals, > which date from 1983. The final versions of those manuals would be > nice to have. > From sales at elecplus.com Mon Oct 29 14:53:07 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 14:53:07 -0500 Subject: 2 huge warehouses full of old computers Message-ID: <26c001d46fc1$036ec7b0$0a4c5710$@com> Thursday I visited Computer Fusion near Dallas, TX. They have 2 huge warehouses that they have been filling up since the 1990s. I saw a lot of old Sun gear, lots of 90s era PCs, etc. Not all of it is listed on his site, but if there is something specific you want, go to http://www.cfusion.com and send them a request. Yes, he still has working ESDI, MFM, etc drives J Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 29 14:54:23 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 12:54:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Updates at retroarchive.org... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Oct 2018, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 10/29/18 6:11 AM, geneb via cctalk wrote: > >> This is going to be a long term project that will end when I've either exhausted the available CD-ROMs on the IA, or I >> die, whichever comes first. ;) > > Even a full list of what CDs Jason has there w/o indexing would be helpful. > Trying to figure out what is there is a nightmare. > All the shareware CDs are in a collection called "cdbbsarchive". https://archive.org/details/cdbbsarchive I'm going for all the low-hanging fruit first - sets of CDs from the likes of Nightowl, PsL, etc. Then I'll move on to the singles. It's still a huge job though. :) I've got a 5TB NAS that I'm storing these on, so I'm in no danger of running out of space. :) > For a while, I had about 400gb of cd images on bitsavers until we ran out of disk space. > I probably have a few hundred more gb I've read since then. I've slowly been trying to > find a full set of physical disks from Walnut Creek for CHM's archive. Here's the Walnut Creek collection: https://archive.org/details/walnutcreekcdrom I'm pretty sure these came straight from the guy that owned Walnut Creek. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From ethan at 757.org Mon Oct 29 15:33:40 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 16:33:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Updates at retroarchive.org... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Even a full list of what CDs Jason has there w/o indexing would be helpful. > Trying to figure out what is there is a nightmare. > For a while, I had about 400gb of cd images on bitsavers until we ran out of disk space. > I probably have a few hundred more gb I've read since then. I've slowly been trying to > find a full set of physical disks from Walnut Creek for CHM's archive. I was recently talking to friends about making a Pi project with the Pi camera above a CD-ROM drawer, and a pushbutton to trigger picture of CD + ISO image automagically. I have some AIX CDs, Oracle CDs, and old FreeBSD/Linux CDs to archive. Years ago I had a robotic CD changer that could cycle through about 200 discs hands off. Seems like it would be ideal now :-) Are you short on disk space? -- : Ethan O'Toole From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 29 15:35:51 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 13:35:51 -0700 Subject: Updates at retroarchive.org... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <14a8642a-fa39-4737-131c-684b846f3637@sydex.com> Gee, I didn't know you collected old CD archives. I've got some WC CDs here: "Internet USENET source code." CDs 1,2,3 C/C++ Users Group Library August 1997 "Toolkit for Linus"-2 CD set. ------------------- Developer Source Vols. 4-10 (1995-1998); archives of source code published in magazine form, as well as a few books. Put out by I-Mode, Inc. Some of the later ones are still in shrink wrap--I just got too overloaded with the information. I may have volumes 1-3, but I'm not sure. Let me know and I'll some or all of them in your book box (they qualify as "media mail", right? I probably have a ton of other goodies, since I just started tossing CDs in a big box. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 29 15:46:50 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 13:46:50 -0700 Subject: Updates at retroarchive.org... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36ea1c02-d253-5cac-a9ff-cad4782f2894@bitsavers.org> On 10/29/18 12:54 PM, geneb wrote: > Here's the Walnut Creek collection: https://archive.org/details/walnutcreekcdrom It sure would be nice if you could get a comma separated list of metadata instead of a bunch of pretty pictures THAT is where IA is a colossal FAIL From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 29 15:49:43 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 13:49:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Updates at retroarchive.org... In-Reply-To: <14a8642a-fa39-4737-131c-684b846f3637@sydex.com> References: <14a8642a-fa39-4737-131c-684b846f3637@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Oct 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Gee, I didn't know you collected old CD archives. > > I've got some WC CDs here: > > "Internet USENET source code." CDs 1,2,3 > > C/C++ Users Group Library August 1997 > > "Toolkit for Linus"-2 CD set. > ------------------- > Developer Source Vols. 4-10 (1995-1998); archives of source code > published in magazine form, as well as a few books. Put out by I-Mode, > Inc. Some of the later ones are still in shrink wrap--I just got too > overloaded with the information. I may have volumes 1-3, but I'm not sure. > > Let me know and I'll some or all of them in your book box (they qualify > as "media mail", right? > That's my understanding, yes. > I probably have a ton of other goodies, since I just started tossing CDs > in a big box. That works for me, thanks! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 29 15:53:18 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 13:53:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Updates at retroarchive.org... In-Reply-To: <36ea1c02-d253-5cac-a9ff-cad4782f2894@bitsavers.org> References: <36ea1c02-d253-5cac-a9ff-cad4782f2894@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Oct 2018, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 10/29/18 12:54 PM, geneb wrote: > >> Here's the Walnut Creek collection: https://archive.org/details/walnutcreekcdrom > > It sure would be nice if you could get a comma separated list of metadata instead of > a bunch of pretty pictures > > THAT is where IA is a colossal FAIL You realize that you can click a button and get a text list of those "pretty pictures", right? Click the "Show Details" checkbox and you'll get a block of text that describes each one. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From sales at elecplus.com Mon Oct 29 16:05:48 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 16:05:48 -0500 Subject: Bunches of old AIX software... Message-ID: <272701d46fcb$2b2bec10$8183c430$@com> http://www.appx.com/appx-server-413-ibm-aix http://bio.gsi.de/DOCS/AIX/docs.html http://yips.idevcloud.com/wiki/index.php/PASE/OpenSourceBinariesArchive Maybe these will be useful to someone? Cindy Croxton --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 29 16:06:25 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 14:06:25 -0700 Subject: MSDN CD disposition In-Reply-To: <36ea1c02-d253-5cac-a9ff-cad4782f2894@bitsavers.org> References: <36ea1c02-d253-5cac-a9ff-cad4782f2894@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <8af8e477-cac1-2c89-089b-8d90c4ecd204@sydex.com> What's Microsoft's policy on old MSDN CDs? I've got a ton of them starting somewhere around 93-94 and extended through the XP years. Do I respect MS's IP and send them to the crusher? --Chuck From ethan at 757.org Mon Oct 29 16:06:28 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 17:06:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Updates at retroarchive.org... In-Reply-To: References: <36ea1c02-d253-5cac-a9ff-cad4782f2894@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > You realize that you can click a button and get a text list of those "pretty > pictures", right? Click the "Show Details" checkbox and you'll get a block > of text that describes each one. > g. I would assume he means text listings / directory listing type view. - Ethan From sales at elecplus.com Mon Oct 29 16:09:58 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 16:09:58 -0500 Subject: MSDN CD disposition In-Reply-To: <8af8e477-cac1-2c89-089b-8d90c4ecd204@sydex.com> References: <36ea1c02-d253-5cac-a9ff-cad4782f2894@bitsavers.org> <8af8e477-cac1-2c89-089b-8d90c4ecd204@sydex.com> Message-ID: <272c01d46fcb$bffc6360$3ff52a20$@com> Not required, I think. There are activation codes for SOME of the software on the CDs, but not most of them. Many will be trial versions or limited in some fashion. All of this old software is no longer under MS support, and much of it can be downloaded from MS or other sites for free. So my take on it is no need to kill them! Cindy -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis via cctalk Sent: Monday, October 29, 2018 4:06 PM To: CCtalk Subject: MSDN CD disposition What's Microsoft's policy on old MSDN CDs? I've got a ton of them starting somewhere around 93-94 and extended through the XP years. Do I respect MS's IP and send them to the crusher? --Chuck --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Oct 29 16:12:21 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 15:12:21 -0600 Subject: i860: Re: modern stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 12:13 PM alan--- via cctalk wrote: > I know i960 is a very different beast, but was there ever any high level > OSs that ran on it? It was originally the BiiN processor, and ran the Osiris operating system. However, few if any were sold, and it disappeared without a trace, leading to BiiN being retronym'd "Billions invested in Nothing". The i960 was how Intel repositioned it to try to salvage as much as possible. Most i960 variants either don't have the tag bit hardware and object-oriented "microcode" that was used for BiiN; it is only officially present in the i960MX, but might also be in the i960MC. I think only the MX and MC have an MMU. It should be possible to port {Unix,xBSD,Linux} to the i960MC, but I don't think anyone has. From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Oct 29 16:18:42 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 17:18:42 -0400 Subject: MSDN CD disposition In-Reply-To: <272c01d46fcb$bffc6360$3ff52a20$@com> References: <36ea1c02-d253-5cac-a9ff-cad4782f2894@bitsavers.org> <8af8e477-cac1-2c89-089b-8d90c4ecd204@sydex.com> <272c01d46fcb$bffc6360$3ff52a20$@com> Message-ID: <6FEBCFE9-74DC-4EBD-B90F-7DE04D6227E0@comcast.net> > On Oct 29, 2018, at 5:09 PM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > > Not required, I think. > There are activation codes for SOME of the software on the CDs, but not most of them. Many will be trial versions or limited in some fashion. I still have a few MSDN disks containing national language versions of Win95 -- I've run the Basque version for grins on occasion. (One wonders how they justified the expense of creating that one...) It seems to be a full version, not limited in time or features as far as I could tell. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Oct 29 16:20:51 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 17:20:51 -0400 Subject: i860: Re: modern stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7664DA61-39E7-4F1F-85EA-F6762BB35E12@comcast.net> > On Oct 29, 2018, at 5:12 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > > The i960 was how Intel repositioned it to try to salvage as much as > possible. Most i960 variants either don't have the tag bit hardware and > object-oriented "microcode" that was used for BiiN; it is only officially > present in the i960MX, but might also be in the i960MC. I think only the MX > and MC have an MMU. I used an i960 at Chipcom. At this point, the only thing I remember is a very awful I/O architecture. It felt a bit like the seriously broken architecture of the 82586 Ethernet chip. (Yes, it's possible to design a queue based I/O architecture that is correct; Dijkstra did so in the Electrologica X8. But Intel was clearly clueless about making distributed algorithms work.) paul From abuse at cabal.org.uk Mon Oct 29 16:20:54 2018 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 22:20:54 +0100 Subject: Updates at retroarchive.org... In-Reply-To: <36ea1c02-d253-5cac-a9ff-cad4782f2894@bitsavers.org> References: <36ea1c02-d253-5cac-a9ff-cad4782f2894@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20181029212054.kdhumwezfuceqrtm@mooli.org.uk> On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 01:46:50PM -0700, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 10/29/18 12:54 PM, geneb wrote: >> Here's the Walnut Creek collection: https://archive.org/details/walnutcreekcdrom > It sure would be nice if you could get a comma separated list of metadata > instead of a bunch of pretty pictures If you are looking for machine-parsable metadata, have a look at the RSS feed. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 29 16:23:43 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 14:23:43 -0700 Subject: MSDN CD disposition In-Reply-To: <272c01d46fcb$bffc6360$3ff52a20$@com> References: <36ea1c02-d253-5cac-a9ff-cad4782f2894@bitsavers.org> <8af8e477-cac1-2c89-089b-8d90c4ecd204@sydex.com> <272c01d46fcb$bffc6360$3ff52a20$@com> Message-ID: <93d59bec-eaad-e48a-a97c-abaef624f15f@sydex.com> On 10/29/18 2:09 PM, Electronics Plus wrote: > Not required, I think. There are activation codes for SOME of the > software on the CDs, but not most of them. Many will be trial > versions or limited in some fashion. All of this old software is no > longer under MS support, and much of it can be downloaded from MS or > other sites for free. So my take on it is no need to kill them! That would surprise me a bit; I'm not aware of any OS software being "trial veriosn" type. I think the shrink-wrap agreement calls for being able to use it on up to 10 systems. The copies of, XP, for example are fully licensed working versions. Anyone know for sure? --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 29 16:29:24 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 14:29:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MSDN CD disposition In-Reply-To: <8af8e477-cac1-2c89-089b-8d90c4ecd204@sydex.com> References: <36ea1c02-d253-5cac-a9ff-cad4782f2894@bitsavers.org> <8af8e477-cac1-2c89-089b-8d90c4ecd204@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Oct 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > What's Microsoft's policy on old MSDN CDs? I've got a ton of them > starting somewhere around 93-94 and extended through the XP years. > > Do I respect MS's IP and send them to the crusher? There's a ton of them on the IA already. I would /love/ to get the early ones. My collection begins at 1997 so I would *eagerly* take anything previous to that. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 29 16:31:57 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 14:31:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MSDN CD disposition In-Reply-To: <93d59bec-eaad-e48a-a97c-abaef624f15f@sydex.com> References: <36ea1c02-d253-5cac-a9ff-cad4782f2894@bitsavers.org> <8af8e477-cac1-2c89-089b-8d90c4ecd204@sydex.com> <272c01d46fcb$bffc6360$3ff52a20$@com> <93d59bec-eaad-e48a-a97c-abaef624f15f@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Oct 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > That would surprise me a bit; I'm not aware of any OS software being > "trial veriosn" type. I think the shrink-wrap agreement calls for being > able to use it on up to 10 systems. The copies of, XP, for example are > fully licensed working versions. > > Anyone know for sure? > With no key, it's basically useless and there's other sources out there (IA) for media. I'd also like to put out a call for any of the TechNet CDs, especially those prior to the release of Windows 95. tnx. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From lproven at gmail.com Mon Oct 29 16:50:33 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 22:50:33 +0100 Subject: modern stuff In-Reply-To: <741bab3a-a76b-a0d0-8c17-07192e38e4b5@e-bbes.com> References: <20181024130116.B11F718C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <78b749e3-0df3-dcfb-3def-b50bbaa24f2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <6c460aa6-35ba-e739-00b8-d8758ce78bc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <89D9E459-BAF3-409C-89FA-8FCD782D0B06@comcast.net> <90302436-c038-ff79-bae7-ea643939c4fc@jetnet.ab.ca> <34e1f336-7626-c127-5051-078f257b0764@jetnet.ab.ca> <741bab3a-a76b-a0d0-8c17-07192e38e4b5@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Oct 2018 at 14:56, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > the i860 found at least a little niche on graphics boards, so somehow > not a complete failure ;-) And of course it was the N-Ten CPU on the Microsoft Dazzle motherboard. The main product developed on that mobo was codenamed after the CPU -- "NT"... https://www.itprotoday.com/windows-server/windows-server-2003-road-gold-part-one-early-years -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From spc at conman.org Mon Oct 29 16:53:30 2018 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 17:53:30 -0400 Subject: Object-oriented OS [was: Re: Microsoft-Paul Allen] In-Reply-To: <20181027033251.GA5524@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <20181027033251.GA5524@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <20181029215330.GC18117@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Tomasz Rola via cctalk once stated: > Ok guys, just to make things clearer, here are two pages from wiki: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-oriented_operating_system > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-oriented_programming > > What I was thinking back at the time of premiere: classes, objects > derived from the classes, user able to make his own object from > system-provided class or define class of his own, or define his own > class and inherit from other class, including system-provided one. Yes, the typical method of OOP, which is not what Alan Kay had in mind when he developed Smalltalk: I thought of objects being like biological cells and/or individual computers on a network, only able to communicate with messages (so messaging came at the very beginning -- it took a while to see how to do messaging in a programming language efficiently enough to be useful). -- Alan Kay Basically, very small programs that talk to each other to do stuff. Today this is known as "microservices" [1]. > Examples: > > - an object pretends to be a disk object, but is double-disk > partition or zip file You can do this now on Linux using the FUSE driver---this allows a user process to service file system requests. To bring this back to topic, QNX (from the 80s) and Plan-9 (from the 90s) also allowed this, and were easier to use than FUSE (to be honest). But of not one of Linux, QNX or Plan-9 could be considered an "object oriented operating system." Fancy that. > - an object pretends to be file object but in fact it is a > composition of few different files, mapped into virtual file-like > object (so as to avoid costly copying) I think I would classify this as a variant on the first example. > - an object says it is a printer but is a proxy, connected via > serial-line object to another such serial-line object on remote > computer where the real printer sits (connected via parallel, as > usually) Under QNX, this was a trivial operation. It was probably pretty trivial under Plan-9 (depending upon how they handled printer queues). Unix (including Linux) has something like this, but the name escapes me since I do almost no printing what-so-ever. I do know that of the last N printers I've had [2] (actually, my girlfriend has---she's the one who prints more than I do) were all "plug on, turn on, oh look! The computer found it on the network---print!" > - object with execution thread, aka active object (in 199x > nomenclature -> aka process), can be serialized and migrated to > another computer without big fuss either via system provided > migration service or via (really easy to write in such setup) > user's own > - same active object, serialized and stored to file because I gotta > go home and have to turn computer off, so I can resurrect it next > morning These two are related, and the later one is actually a bit easier to accomplish if you are doing it to all the processes on a computer. The major problem though is dealing with resources other than the CPU. For instance, a process has an open file its working with when it's migrated. Problems I see right off the bat: * Does the file exist on the destination? * If it does, does the process have permissions? * Now you have issues with syncing the file to the destination. And if the file is served off a network, then you have issues with network connections---i.e. they break! (Which is an issue today with hibernation) You can't reliably provide this functionality invisibly---you have to pretty much involve the process in question in the process. > Plus, some kind of system programming language - I had no idea what > Smalltalk was and I still have no idea but I might have swallowed > that. An object-oriented image based programming language. Except for some critical routines written in assembler, the entire system (operating system, compiler, GUI, utilities, etc.) were all written in Smalltalk and every "object" could be inspected and modified at runtime (including the operating system, compiler, GUI, utilties, etc.). > I think it was possible to have this. But, not from MS. And as time > shows, not from anybody. Citation needed. > On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 07:34:32PM -0700, Chris Hanson wrote: > > > A lot of Windows 95 is implemented using COM, which is probably > > where the description of it as ?object-oriented? comes from. > > Well, I am not going to bet my money on this. What you wrote might be true > but I would like something, say a blog or article, in which author shows > how I can count those COM objects. How many threads are running? There's your count. > I tried to verify your statement and the earliest Windows which could be > claimed to be built from many COMs was Windows 8. But the truth is, I have > departed from Win-Win land long ago, and only use Windows when someone > wants me to unscrew a Windows laptop. Well, COM (Component Object Model) was first developed by Microsoft in 1993, but was based off an earlier technology Microsoft developed call OLE, which in turn came from DDE in 1987. > > And while I have never been a Windows user, to denigrate it as some > > sort of non-achievement given the constraints under which it was > > developed, both in terms of target systems and backwards > > compatibility, is myopic at best. > > C'mon, we are not talking about windows on 8-bit computer. I think > they had loads of cash even back then and could pick from heaps of > CVs. According to ReactOS wikipage: He's talking about Windows on a 16-bit computer with a limit of 1M of memory (but really 640K due to the architecture of the IBM PC [3]). > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactos > > On 1 May 2012 a 30,000 euro funding campaign was started to finance > additional development projects.[43][44] On the end of the year > approximately 50% of the funding goal was achieved and it was > decided to continue the funding campaign without deadlines. > > (...) The development progress is influenced by the size of the > development team and the level of experience among them. As an > estimate of the effort required to implement Windows 7, Microsoft > employed 1,000 or so developers, organized into 25 teams, with each > team averaging 40 developers.[85] As of 2 September 2011, in the > ReactOS entry in Ohloh, the page followed through the "Very large, > active development team" link lists 33 developers who have > contributed over a 12-month period and a cumulative total of 104 > present and former users who have contributed code to the project > via Subversion since its inception.[86] In his presentation at > Hackmeeting 2009 in Milan, ReactOS developer Michele C. noted that > most of the developers learn about Windows architecture while > working on ReactOS and have no prior knowledge. > > With this funding and so few people those noble folks achieved quite a > lot. Do you think MS limitations were bigger? Reactos is a team building something which already exists---they're keeping up with Microsoft. It's Microsoft that spends the money to extend and enhance the features of their operating system in reponse to customer demand. For a more apples-to-pears type of comparison, the number of active Linux developers in 2013 was nearly 1,400 [4], which compares nicely to Windows for active, new development. > On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 04:14:34PM +0200, Liam Proven wrote: > > On Sat, 20 Oct 2018 at 19:31, Tomasz Rola via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > > Oooh. [...] touting [...] "object oriented operating system" [...] > > > objection [...] scam [...] > > > > I think the explanation for that is fairly clearly there in the history. > > > > NT 3.1 came soon after Windows 3. > > > > [... Chicago and Cairo ... multiplied ...] > > Very true, but if someone promises and does not deliver, who is he? A marketer, a politician or a liar. There have been plenty of projects announced and not delivered (Taligent anyone? Xanadu?) for a variety of reasons. It's nothing new. > And nobody makes a small print saying "this is just marketing > material, so do not count on it". If I cannot count on it, why waste > my time? To disuade you from buying from a competitor? Because they truely believe it at the time? -spc (Oh, the i432 from Intel! Announced, then disappeared with nary a trace ... ) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microservices [2] Modern printers are crap, and it's sad that it's often cheaper to *buy* a new printer than it is to replace the ink. Grumble. [3] There were computers based on the 8088 that were *not* IBM PC comptabible but did run MS-DOS that allowed for memory to exceed the 640K barrier. But they died in the market for not being IBM PC compatible. [4] https://www.cnet.com/news/linux-development-by-the-numbers-big-and-getting-bigger/ From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Mon Oct 29 18:24:41 2018 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 18:24:41 -0500 Subject: 2 huge warehouses full of old computers In-Reply-To: <26c001d46fc1$036ec7b0$0a4c5710$@com> References: <26c001d46fc1$036ec7b0$0a4c5710$@com> Message-ID: <3dc695c1-14ff-40ce-68f9-ce72a8764c12@thereinhardts.org> On 10/29/2018 2:53 PM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > Thursday I visited Computer Fusion near Dallas, TX. They have 2 huge > warehouses that they have been filling up since the 1990s. I saw a lot of > old Sun gear, lots of 90s era PCs, etc. Not all of it is listed on his site, > but if there is something specific you want, go to http://www.cfusion.com > and send them a request. Yes, he still has working ESDI, MFM, etc drives J > > > > Cindy Croxton > > Electronics Plus > > 1613 Water Street > > Kerrville, TX 78028 > > 830-370-3239 cell > > sales at elecplus.com > > > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > Since I live in Fort Worth, I wasn't sure if I wanted to hear about this.? Or rather, my wife wouldn't want me to hear about this. Oh, my, they're actually in Euless, TX.? Only 30 minutes from me.? This could be dangerous. -- John H. Reinhardt From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 29 18:29:51 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 16:29:51 -0700 Subject: 2 huge warehouses full of old computers In-Reply-To: <3dc695c1-14ff-40ce-68f9-ce72a8764c12@thereinhardts.org> References: <26c001d46fc1$036ec7b0$0a4c5710$@com> <3dc695c1-14ff-40ce-68f9-ce72a8764c12@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: On 10/29/18 4:24 PM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: > On 10/29/2018 2:53 PM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: >> Thursday I visited Computer Fusion near Dallas, TX. They have 2 huge >> warehouses that they have been filling up since the 1990s. I saw a lot of >> old Sun gear, lots of 90s era PCs, etc. Not all of it is listed on his site, >> but if there is something specific you want, go to http://www.cfusion.com I guess someone has been looking at the site Their inventory search broke. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Oct 29 18:30:28 2018 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 19:30:28 -0400 Subject: i860: Re: modern stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: AIX was ported in very cut down manner and used on the f960 and h960 routing cards used on the early T3 based NSFnet. F960 was FDDI and H960 was HSSI. Come think of it, I think the v.25 and ether net cards also used i960, just a smaller version. -- Will On Oct 29, 2018 12:13 PM, "alan--- via cctalk" wrote: I know i960 is a very different beast, but was there ever any high level OSs that ran on it? Or was it pidgin-holed as a high speed embedded processor for storage controllers and NICs? I picked up a cache of i960 CPUs a couple years ago and they speak to me in tongues every time I pass by the shelf. -Alan On 2018-10-29 12:56, Ken Seefried via cctalk wrote: > the i860 found at least a little niche on graphics boards, so somehow >> not a complete failure ;-) >> > > I'd be mildly surprised if Intel ever made enough from selling i860s > as GPUs to cover the cost of developing and marketing them. At the > time, Intel was pushing them as their RISC processor, and put a lot > into the program. Going to take over the world and all that. Maybe > not a 'complete' failure...just mostly. > > From: Chuck Guzis > >> On 10/26/18 6:10 AM, Gordon Henderson via cctalk wrote: >> >> However it was a royal PITA to code for although a 32-bit CPU, it would >>> read memory 64 bits at a time (actually 128 IIRC to satisfy the cache), >>> with half that 64-bit word being an instruction for the integer unit and >>> half for the floating point unit, so you effectively had to build a >>> floating point pipeline by hand coded instructions, so 8 (I think) >>> instructions to load the pipeline, then each subsequent instruction >>> would feed another value into the pipe, then another 8 at the end to >>> empty it. Great for big matrix operations, rubbish for a single add of 2 >>> FP numbers. >>> >> >> My impression of the i860 was that it might have been fun for about 2 >> weeks for which to code assembly, but after that, you'd really start >> looking hard for an HLL to do the dirty work for you. While there's a >> sense of accomplishment over looking at a page of painfully >> hand-optimized code that manages to keep everything busy with no >> "bubbles", you begin to wonder if there isn't a better way to spend your >> life. >> > > It wasn't fun for the whole 2 weeks. And the i860 is Yet Another > example of Intel claiming their compilers were going to be so smart > that all the architectural complexity/warts will never be noticed. > Wrong, and they didn't learn and said the same thing about Itanium. > The interrupt stall issue that Gordon pointed out was so bad they were > basically relegated to single-task software in the end. > > KJ > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 29 18:32:38 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 16:32:38 -0700 Subject: 2 huge warehouses full of old computers In-Reply-To: References: <26c001d46fc1$036ec7b0$0a4c5710$@com> <3dc695c1-14ff-40ce-68f9-ce72a8764c12@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: <2761cd08-8acd-9022-242e-6a95d1d85f61@bitsavers.org> On 10/29/18 4:29 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I guess someone has been looking at the site > Their inventory search broke. > nevermind, it spits out a 500 Error. Internal Server Error. if nothing matches From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Mon Oct 29 19:36:34 2018 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 17:36:34 -0700 Subject: 2 huge warehouses full of old computers In-Reply-To: References: <26c001d46fc1$036ec7b0$0a4c5710$@com> <3dc695c1-14ff-40ce-68f9-ce72a8764c12@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: <902C0B1E-FD01-4792-977D-F559D07A398E@eschatologist.net> On Oct 29, 2018, at 4:29 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I guess someone has been looking at the site > Their inventory search broke. I managed to do a search for Apollo stuff and their prices are outrageous. Guess we know how they accumulated multiple warehouses full of gear. -- Chris From rtomek at ceti.pl Mon Oct 29 19:59:36 2018 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 01:59:36 +0100 Subject: Desktop Metaphor In-Reply-To: <20181029164337.GB77310@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <20181029164337.GB77310@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20181030005936.GC1478@tau1.ceti.pl> On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 05:43:37PM +0100, Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote: [...] > For mission critical stuff this may be ok, but what's the > advantage for the desktop if you can't even run Virtualbox or Qemu, > simh, cpmsim, dosbox and other related stuff? > The same problem on Dragonfly, Nice File system (Hammer,Hammer2) > but.... Out of curiosity I have browsed a what is supposedly a mirror of ports, say, this one: https://ftp.fr.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD/6.4/packages/amd64/ and there are packages for dosbox, qemu and simhm albeit I cannot say if versions are acceptable. The rest could perhaps be compiled from source? -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Oct 29 20:14:32 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 01:14:32 +0000 Subject: Desktop Metaphor In-Reply-To: <20181030005936.GC1478@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <20181029164337.GB77310@beast.freibergnet.de> <20181030005936.GC1478@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: On 10/29/18 8:59 PM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 05:43:37PM +0100, Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote: > [...] >> For mission critical stuff this may be ok, but what's the >> advantage for the desktop if you can't even run Virtualbox or Qemu, >> simh, cpmsim, dosbox and other related stuff? >> The same problem on Dragonfly, Nice File system (Hammer,Hammer2) >> but.... > Out of curiosity I have browsed a what is supposedly a mirror of > ports, say, this one: > https://ftp.fr.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD/6.4/packages/amd64/ > > and there are packages for dosbox, qemu and simhm albeit I cannot say > if versions are acceptable. The rest could perhaps be compiled from > source? > I use SIMH a lot.? I never rely on the prebuilt stuff on any of the BSD's or Linux.? They always tend to be several releases back. bill From chris at groessler.org Mon Oct 29 20:39:24 2018 From: chris at groessler.org (Christian Groessler) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 02:39:24 +0100 Subject: i860, was : Re: modern stuff In-Reply-To: <1ba89234-aa8c-6d43-6c59-a55ac3eb987e@e-bbes.com> References: <20181024130116.B11F718C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <78b749e3-0df3-dcfb-3def-b50bbaa24f2f@jetnet.ab.ca> <6c460aa6-35ba-e739-00b8-d8758ce78bc4@jetnet.ab.ca> <89D9E459-BAF3-409C-89FA-8FCD782D0B06@comcast.net> <90302436-c038-ff79-bae7-ea643939c4fc@jetnet.ab.ca> <34e1f336-7626-c127-5051-078f257b0764@jetnet.ab.ca> <741bab3a-a76b-a0d0-8c17-07192e38e4b5@e-bbes.com> <1ba89234-aa8c-6d43-6c59-a55ac3eb987e@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On 10/27/18 15:04, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > There was actually a nice PC Mainboard from Hauppauge, with an i486 & > i860 on the same board ... > > Always wanted to have one of those, never found a used one. And it was > running some king of Unix back then ... > > http://www.geekdot.com/hauppauge-4860/ I have a computer with this mainboard. I received a DOS version of the Portland Group's C compiler for i860 along with it. The DOS software also had a "run860" program, to -- you guess it -- run programs on the i860. I then wrote a Linux version of "run860" and created an assembler toolchain for Linux to target i860 (using GNU binutils). I was able to compile and run the "blink" demo from the manual on Linux instead of DOS. And some other assembler programs written by me. These things can be found on ftp://ftp.groessler.org/pub/chris/i860 . At this time I was in contact with the original author of the i860 binutils support, Jason Eckhardt. With his help and patch to gcc, I was able to compile newlib with gcc for i860. But I've never tested it beyond compilation. Jason also told me that he had a modified Linux kernel for i860 (which IIRC was for a then already old version of Linux). Since according to the motherboard manual, interrupts from hardware devices always interrupt the i486, and not the i860, I never asked him for this version. Getting that to work, with i486 and i860 cooperation, didn't appeal to me. regards, chris From rtomek at ceti.pl Mon Oct 29 21:01:53 2018 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 03:01:53 +0100 Subject: Desktop Metaphor In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B48A@mail.bensene.com> <20181029164337.GB77310@beast.freibergnet.de> <20181030005936.GC1478@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <20181030020153.GD1478@tau1.ceti.pl> On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 01:14:32AM +0000, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On 10/29/18 8:59 PM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: [...] > > and there are packages for dosbox, qemu and simhm albeit I cannot say > > if versions are acceptable. The rest could perhaps be compiled from > > source? > > > I use SIMH a lot.? I never rely on the prebuilt stuff on any of the > BSD's or Linux.? They always tend to be several releases back. Yes, this is how I abuse Lisp environments. But I do not shy away from having prebuilts as done by package maintainers - they know their shit and I can have something which should work. I then use a mix of sh snippets to start shell with proper combination of paths to use one built by me or just normal shell to have the default, just in case I screw up. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From radioengr at gmail.com Mon Oct 29 22:43:56 2018 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 20:43:56 -0700 Subject: i860: Re: modern stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm aware of some airborne (avionics) computers that used i960s. There were Mil-spec versions available. I believe the i960 really only found a niche in embedded applications. If I recall correctly, the i960 became available at about the same time as the 80386 but was less expensive. At the time, you couldn't afford to put a 80386 in an embedded application because Intel was getting artificially high prices due to PC-based pricing. Intel later tried to address the embedded market pricing issues by releasing the 80376 and later the 80386EX. Both those products were munged so they couldn't run DOS and that kept their pricing model intact. The i960 did have a user mode and supervisor mode - so it could have supported a 'real' OS. Rob. On 10/29/2018 11:12 AM, alan--- via cctalk wrote: > > I know i960 is a very different beast, but was there ever any high level > OSs that ran on it?? Or was it pidgin-holed as a high speed embedded > processor for storage controllers and NICs? > > I picked up a cache of i960 CPUs a couple years ago and they speak to me > in tongues every time I pass by the shelf. > > -Alan > > > On 2018-10-29 12:56, Ken Seefried via cctalk wrote: >>> the i860 found at least a little niche on graphics boards, so somehow >>> not a complete failure ;-) >> >> I'd be mildly surprised if Intel ever made enough from selling i860s >> as GPUs to cover the cost of developing and marketing them.? At the >> time, Intel was pushing them as their RISC processor, and put a lot >> into the program.? Going to take over the world and all that.? Maybe >> not a 'complete' failure...just mostly. >> >> From: Chuck Guzis >>> On 10/26/18 6:10 AM, Gordon Henderson via cctalk wrote: >>> >>>> However it was a royal PITA to code for although a 32-bit CPU, it would >>>> read memory 64 bits at a time (actually 128 IIRC to satisfy the cache), >>>> with half that 64-bit word being an instruction for the integer unit >>>> and >>>> half for the floating point unit, so you effectively had to build a >>>> floating point pipeline by hand coded instructions, so 8 (I think) >>>> instructions to load the pipeline, then each subsequent instruction >>>> would feed another value into the pipe, then another 8 at the end to >>>> empty it. Great for big matrix operations, rubbish for a single add >>>> of 2 >>>> FP numbers. >>> >>> My impression of the i860 was that it might have been fun for about 2 >>> weeks for which to code assembly, but after that, you'd really start >>> looking hard for an HLL to do the dirty work for you.? While there's a >>> sense of accomplishment over looking at a page of painfully >>> hand-optimized code that manages to keep everything busy with no >>> "bubbles", you begin to wonder if there isn't a better way to spend your >>> life. >> >> It wasn't fun for the whole 2 weeks.? And the i860 is Yet Another >> example of Intel claiming their compilers were going to be so smart >> that all the architectural complexity/warts will never be noticed. >> Wrong, and they didn't learn and said the same thing about Itanium. >> The interrupt stall issue that Gordon pointed out was so bad they were >> basically relegated to single-task software in the end. >> >> KJ > From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Oct 29 23:03:07 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 00:03:07 -0400 Subject: Updates at retroarchive.org... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a file called November 1994 Walnut Creek CPM cdrom.iso is this it? ~635 Mb - 46860 files. Bill On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 10:52 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 10/29/18 6:11 AM, geneb via cctalk wrote: > > > This is going to be a long term project that will end when I've either > exhausted the available CD-ROMs on the IA, or I > > die, whichever comes first. ;) > > Even a full list of what CDs Jason has there w/o indexing would be helpful. > Trying to figure out what is there is a nightmare. > > For a while, I had about 400gb of cd images on bitsavers until we ran out > of disk space. > I probably have a few hundred more gb I've read since then. I've slowly > been trying to > find a full set of physical disks from Walnut Creek for CHM's archive. > > From rtomek at ceti.pl Mon Oct 29 23:40:54 2018 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 05:40:54 +0100 Subject: Object-oriented OS [was: Re: Microsoft-Paul Allen] In-Reply-To: <20181029215330.GC18117@brevard.conman.org> References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <20181027033251.GA5524@tau1.ceti.pl> <20181029215330.GC18117@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20181030044053.GE1478@tau1.ceti.pl> On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 05:53:30PM -0400, Sean Conner via cctalk wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Tomasz Rola via cctalk once stated: > > Ok guys, just to make things clearer, here are two pages from wiki: > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-oriented_operating_system > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-oriented_programming [...] > > > Examples: > > > > - an object pretends to be a disk object, but is double-disk [...] > You can do this now on Linux using the FUSE driver---this allows a user [...] > > - an object says it is a printer but is a proxy, connected via [...] > > Under QNX, this was a trivial operation. It was probably pretty trivial > under Plan-9 (depending upon how they handled printer queues). Unix > (including Linux) has something like this, but the name escapes me since I > do almost no printing what-so-ever. > > I do know that of the last N printers I've had [2] (actually, my > girlfriend has---she's the one who prints more than I do) were all "plug on, > turn on, oh look! The computer found it on the network---print!" Ok, but twenty years ago if one wanted to find something on the network, one had to build the network first. And sometimes the thing to be found, too. I realize a lot of stuff I gave as examples can be done nowadays without all that OO-thinglets. We should not mix past with today, those are/were different situations. > > - object with execution thread, aka active object (in 199x [...] > major problem though is dealing with resources other than the CPU. For > instance, a process has an open file its working with when it's migrated. [...] > You can't reliably provide this functionality invisibly---you have to pretty > much involve the process in question in the process. There was a rather huge area of research, which was concerned with such issues. Maybe still is, I am not current. See below. > > Plus, some kind of system programming language - I had no idea what > > Smalltalk was and I still have no idea but I might have swallowed > > that. > > An object-oriented image based programming language. Except for some > critical routines written in assembler, the entire system (operating system, > compiler, GUI, utilities, etc.) were all written in Smalltalk and every > "object" could be inspected and modified at runtime (including the operating > system, compiler, GUI, utilties, etc.). Nice idea. > > > I think it was possible to have this. But, not from MS. And as time > > shows, not from anybody. > > Citation needed. Oh.. ok. I would rather go to bed than down this memory lane, but we will see if I can do this quickly. Some of the things that were available in mid-1990-ties: - Amoeba - distributed, object (based? oriented?) OS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amoeba_(operating_system) https://www.cs.vu.nl/pub/amoeba/ intro: http://www.cs.vu.nl/pub/amoeba/Intro.pdf First version: 1.0 from 1983 Last version: 5.3 from 1996 http://fsd-amoeba.sourceforge.net/amoeba.html Among other things, they claim to have an OS over a network of computers, while X with terminal emulators served GUI to users. - HT Condor - started as Condor in 1988, job/workload manager for grid / distributed computer / network of computers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTCondor http://research.cs.wisc.edu/htcondor/ - Sprite - research OS, supported process migration, discontinued after 1994 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprite_(operating_system) - Emerald, from 1984 onward, language for object oriented distributed programming, supports object migration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerald_(programming_language) http://www.emeraldprogramminglanguage.org/ Since we are at it, I cowrote object migration service for ANSA (Advanced Networked Systems Architecture) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Herbert#Advanced_Networked_Systems_Architecture and used it to build load balancer for distributed computation (objects migrating alone or together because they are tighly coupled etc etc), which as my master thesis (1996) earned me third prize in national contest here in Poland. Compared to the rest of the stuff ANSA was a bit primitive and at that time it was on its way out (while CORBA was on its way in). Glory days. Lots of steam through the window and out into blue skies. BTW, the wikipage claims A.Herbert is involved with EDSAC restoration, so he went retro. Anyway, I think it is obvious that doing mere OO system was not really big deal. Some of those projects were dying of old age by then. Some frameworks, like PVN, are nearly 30 years old today. So, I suppose if someone really wanted to do their commercial OS in OO way, they could have. > > On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 07:34:32PM -0700, Chris Hanson wrote: > > > > > A lot of Windows 95 is implemented using COM, which is probably > > > where the description of it as ?object-oriented? comes from. > > > > Well, I am not going to bet my money on this. What you wrote might be true > > but I would like something, say a blog or article, in which author shows > > how I can count those COM objects. > > How many threads are running? There's your count. That easy. > > I tried to verify your statement and the earliest Windows which could be > > claimed to be built from many COMs was Windows 8. But the truth is, I have > > departed from Win-Win land long ago, and only use Windows when someone > > wants me to unscrew a Windows laptop. > > Well, COM (Component Object Model) was first developed by Microsoft in > 1993, but was based off an earlier technology Microsoft developed call OLE, > which in turn came from DDE in 1987. I have read about it, too. My doubt was about "a lot of Windows 95 is implemented using COM". I can be ok if "a lot" == 10%, but if it is 75% then I am doubtful, just because I do not buy it (at least not from MS, they are known for making extravagant claims, see "UNIX killer"). > > > And while I have never been a Windows user, to denigrate it as some > > > sort of non-achievement given the constraints under which it was > > > developed, both in terms of target systems and backwards > > > compatibility, is myopic at best. > > > > C'mon, we are not talking about windows on 8-bit computer. I think > > they had loads of cash even back then and could pick from heaps of > > CVs. According to ReactOS wikipage: > > He's talking about Windows on a 16-bit computer with a limit of 1M of > memory (but really 640K due to the architecture of the IBM PC [3]). Too bad, the thread is about Windows 95 - a 32-bit OS, where 640K is just a bad dream. Even if in fact Win95 was (AFAICT) a 16/32 bit mixture. I actually appreciate Windows 3.x (this, the 16-bit OS) because MS managed to squeeze it into such a limited hardware. It was pitiful and rather useless for running multiple computations at once but it was also significant. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactos > > [...] > > > > With this funding and so few people those noble folks achieved quite a > > lot. Do you think MS limitations were bigger? > > Reactos is a team building something which already exists---they're > keeping up with Microsoft. It's Microsoft that spends the money to extend > and enhance the features of their operating system in reponse to customer > demand. > > For a more apples-to-pears type of comparison, the number of active Linux > developers in 2013 was nearly 1,400 [4], which compares nicely to Windows > for active, new development. Fair point. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From rtomek at ceti.pl Mon Oct 29 23:58:41 2018 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 05:58:41 +0100 Subject: Object-oriented OS [was: Re: Microsoft-Paul Allen] In-Reply-To: <20181030044053.GE1478@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20181020173120.GA16598@tau1.ceti.pl> <20181027033251.GA5524@tau1.ceti.pl> <20181029215330.GC18117@brevard.conman.org> <20181030044053.GE1478@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <20181030045841.GF1478@tau1.ceti.pl> On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 05:40:54AM +0100, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: [...] > Anyway, I think it is obvious that doing mere OO system was not really > big deal. Some of those projects were dying of old age by then. Some > frameworks, like PVN, are nearly 30 years old today. PVM, not PVN, sorry (PVM blurred with PCN, both used for distr prog). -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From commodorejohn at gmail.com Mon Oct 29 20:38:42 2018 From: commodorejohn at gmail.com (John Ames) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2018 18:38:42 -0700 Subject: "Object Oriented GUI" Message-ID: > Message: 28 > Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2018 13:16:44 -0400 > From: "Jeffrey S. Worley" > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: "Object Oriented GUI" > Message-ID: <01e83dac0a96469e425a0632bd07319351c9362d.camel at Gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > I used OS/2 from 1993 to 2003 almost exclusively. It has the most > beautiful GUI on the planet, is object-oriented to a fault, and is the > target of all the claims Microsoft was making with regard to the > Object-orientedness of their new windows 95. > > Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workplace_Shell mentions some > important attributes of a truely object-oriented gui. > > Someone mentioned inheritance and polymorphism. These are two products > of true object oriented gui design. Applications inherit the ability > to manipulate and use whatever objects exist in the system. A word > processor is not limited to just text files, for example, or to only > the files the programmer originally set out for it. The system allows > the applications to grow in functionality as new object types are > developed/assembled by other applications or the user. All these years later, I'm still trying to wrap my head around what the purpose of that in an OS/desktop environment/file-manager context is. I guess that, say, you could have new file types implement their own methods for things like printing, so the OS doesn't have to know the details of the document structure or require a particular application installed to be able to print it, but this seems like an awfully limited use case to me - sure, it would be nice to have things like audio and video codecs be universal and pluggable or things like that, but I have a hard time seeing how it's all that revolutionary, and I can easily see it being just as limiting as other non-OOP format standards (after all, it's not going to magically add functionality that the file format itself doesn't support, is it? And doesn't it ultimately just come down to diking out a chunk of the application code for the OS to use? What if two different programs both offer their own handlers for the same file type?) From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Oct 30 06:22:27 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 07:22:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: i860, was : Re: modern stuff Message-ID: <20181030112227.807B318C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Al Kossow > CHM has a rather large Intel Paragon system. > I just recently snagged the software and manuals for it on eBay > which we didn't have Excellent! Congratulations! So, I'm curious - what's the 'most important missing thing' at the CHM - either am important machine that you don't have at all, or part of something (like the above) that you really need to complete something? Noel From etherbrat at hotmail.com Tue Oct 30 05:46:45 2018 From: etherbrat at hotmail.com (Ether Brat) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 10:46:45 +0000 Subject: Seeking User Manual for DEC M1710 Unibus Interface Foundation Message-ID: Seeking User Manual for DEC M1710 Unibus Interface Foundation: I have been looking everywhere, without success. The closest I have come is a 3-page description in a DEC Logic Handbook from bitsavers. Thanks in advance for any leads. Neil From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Tue Oct 30 08:48:11 2018 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 08:48:11 -0500 Subject: i860: Re: modern stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4caaa85f-b5c2-1e5f-8526-2fd7bcb8fb6a@gmail.com> William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > AIX was ported in very cut down manner and used on the f960 and h960 > routing cards used on the early T3 based NSFnet. F960 was FDDI and H960 was > HSSI. Come think of it, I think the v.25 and ether net cards also used > i960, just a smaller version. > > -- > Will > So, what is this i960-based card for?? Could it be related to what you say in your post? https://imgur.com/NIvQPBv https://imgur.com/hsF0jO2 https://imgur.com/7f6sxDj https://imgur.com/w96cLhT Carlos. From krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Oct 30 10:07:24 2018 From: krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Klemens Krause) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 16:07:24 +0100 (MET) Subject: behaviour of classic PDP-8 frontpanel In-Reply-To: <4caaa85f-b5c2-1e5f-8526-2fd7bcb8fb6a@gmail.com> References: <4caaa85f-b5c2-1e5f-8526-2fd7bcb8fb6a@gmail.com> Message-ID: Is there anybody out with a working classic PDP-8? For a long time we had the problem, that starting a program on our 8 by pressing keys, this program crashed. Examining the memory contents showed, that typically one or two words short behind the starting adress after such a crash had inadvertently content 0000. For a long time I suspected a subtle memory problem. But now after carfully having revised the memory timing I hopefully found the real reason for this nasty misbehaviour: if the machine is running and I press the key, it stops and there is also the chance, that one word in memory is nullified. A look in the maintenance manual shows, that pressing clears the memory data register and others asynchronously. Naturally if this occours in the moment, when a memory read is in progress, data from core has been transfered to memory data register, which clears the word just have been red, and before the memory timing chain was able to write this word back to memory, then this word is cleared out. Scoping the signal coming from the front panel shows heavy bouncing of this key: ing a program produces in many cases more than one pulse. The first starting the program, the following in some cases nullifying a memory location near the start address. The problem showed only, if the second start pulse came just in the moment between reading and rewriting the word in core. In the other cases program just went on. My workaround for this problem in the moment is a 22uF electrolytic capacitor between the signal line and ground to make a "brut force" debounce of this switch. Now my question to other classic-8 users: What does your machine do, if a program is running and you press one of the front keys, which shouldn't be pressed while a program is runnig: , , ? Logically it makes no sense to press these switches if the machine is running. On later machines (8/L, 8/E) these keys have no effect when is on. Maybe that at that time the keys were new and didn't bounce and the designer simply said: you must not press these key while the machine is runnig. Or there is a kind of feedback to these keys which inhibits them if the machine is runnig and which is defunct in our machine. But I didn't find such a key-inhibit line in the maintenance manual. Sadly in the manual I also didn't find a complete diagram of the frontpanel. Neither in that one on bitsavers nor in our original printed version. May one of the classic-8 users here in this group make the experiment: Start a program an press again? Thanks in advance Klemens From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Oct 30 10:09:53 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 08:09:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Updates at retroarchive.org... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Oct 2018, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > I have a file called November 1994 Walnut Creek CPM cdrom.iso > is this it? ~635 Mb - 46860 files. > Bill > Bill, that's one disc out of the hundred-plus that Walnut Creek produced. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From ethan at 757.org Tue Oct 30 10:28:46 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 11:28:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: If you archive old data for the public... Message-ID: If any of you are archiving old data for the public, like CD-ROMs or whatever, and you are low on disk space.... A friend gives me surplus data center hardware often, and I have some SATA disks. They have 4 years or so on them so backup / redundancy is important, but I can offer some to people that are running public archives of classic computer stuff to help. You just can't resell the hardware. -- : Ethan O'Toole From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Oct 30 10:34:53 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 11:34:53 -0400 Subject: Updates at retroarchive.org... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 11:09 AM geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 30 Oct 2018, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > > I have a file called November 1994 Walnut Creek CPM cdrom.iso > > is this it? ~635 Mb - 46860 files. > > Bill > > > Bill, that's one disc out of the hundred-plus that Walnut Creek produced. > > g. > > > WOW. ok From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 30 11:15:09 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 09:15:09 -0700 Subject: Books available ACM CALGO Vols I, II, III, loosleaf+microfice Message-ID: Anyone interested in three hardbound volumes of ACM CALGO, starting with Algorithm 1, plus a large looseleaf binder and assorted microfiche (assuming that I can still find them)? Drop me a line if so. --Chuck From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Oct 30 11:29:45 2018 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 09:29:45 -0700 Subject: 2 huge warehouses full of old computers In-Reply-To: <902C0B1E-FD01-4792-977D-F559D07A398E@eschatologist.net> References: <26c001d46fc1$036ec7b0$0a4c5710$@com> <3dc695c1-14ff-40ce-68f9-ce72a8764c12@thereinhardts.org> <902C0B1E-FD01-4792-977D-F559D07A398E@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <003a01d4706d$c544e5c0$4fceb140$@net> > > I guess someone has been looking at the site > > Their inventory search broke. > > I managed to do a search for Apollo stuff and their prices are > outrageous. > They are definitely not aimed at the hobbyist. More of one of those operations were they are looking to cash in on desperate businesses needing to replace a part urgently. -Ali From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Oct 30 12:01:29 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 13:01:29 -0400 Subject: behaviour of classic PDP-8 frontpanel In-Reply-To: References: <4caaa85f-b5c2-1e5f-8526-2fd7bcb8fb6a@gmail.com> Message-ID: <73BC4DA9-3964-46F7-991F-DF3BF6C8B87A@comcast.net> > On Oct 30, 2018, at 11:07 AM, Klemens Krause via cctalk wrote: > > Is there anybody out with a working classic PDP-8? > > For a long time we had the problem, that starting a program on our 8 by pressing keys, this program crashed. Examining the memory contents showed, that typically one or two words short behind the starting adress after such a crash had inadvertently content 0000. > For a long time I suspected a subtle memory problem. But now after carfully having revised the memory timing I hopefully found the real reason for this nasty misbehaviour: > if the machine is running and I press the key, it stops and > there is also the chance, that one word in memory is nullified. > A look in the maintenance manual shows, that pressing clears the memory data register and others asynchronously. Naturally if this occours in the moment, when a memory read is in progress, data from core has been transfered to memory data register, which clears the word just have been red, and before the memory timing chain was able to write this word back to memory, then this word is cleared out. Interesting. I know another machine that has a similar behavior, which was actually considered a feature. That is the CDC 6000 series. Its peripheral processors do the read-restore cycle of memory as part of the operation of the execution pipeline, rather than with a dedicated data path. PPUs always run (there is no "halt" operation). When you press the boot ("deadstart") button, that forces a specific address into the program counter register. That happens at a pipeline state between the instruction fetch and the memory restore cycle, so while the restore write is done, it goes to the fixed address rather than to the address that was just read. The result is that a PPU memory dump tells you where the PC pointed, if you are lucky enough to find a zero in the code section of memory that doesn't belong there. Since PP dumps only give you memory (no registers) this actually matters for debugging. This feature was known as system programmer lore but not documented. Analyzing the block diagrams carefully would show it, though, and a VHDL model makes it crystal clear. paul From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Oct 30 12:14:58 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 17:14:58 +0000 Subject: behaviour of classic PDP-8 frontpanel In-Reply-To: <73BC4DA9-3964-46F7-991F-DF3BF6C8B87A@comcast.net> References: <4caaa85f-b5c2-1e5f-8526-2fd7bcb8fb6a@gmail.com> , <73BC4DA9-3964-46F7-991F-DF3BF6C8B87A@comcast.net> Message-ID: My Nicolet did the same thing it would load 0 into the intended start location ( on my machine it was a jump to 0 ). The front panel worked fine otherwise. It turned out to be some missing clocks because of a bad 7474. Strange that a common problem on different machine created by completely different issue but all writing 0 back to core. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Paul Koning via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2018 10:01:29 AM To: Klemens Krause; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: behaviour of classic PDP-8 frontpanel > On Oct 30, 2018, at 11:07 AM, Klemens Krause via cctalk wrote: > > Is there anybody out with a working classic PDP-8? > > For a long time we had the problem, that starting a program on our 8 by pressing keys, this program crashed. Examining the memory contents showed, that typically one or two words short behind the starting adress after such a crash had inadvertently content 0000. > For a long time I suspected a subtle memory problem. But now after carfully having revised the memory timing I hopefully found the real reason for this nasty misbehaviour: > if the machine is running and I press the key, it stops and > there is also the chance, that one word in memory is nullified. > A look in the maintenance manual shows, that pressing clears the memory data register and others asynchronously. Naturally if this occours in the moment, when a memory read is in progress, data from core has been transfered to memory data register, which clears the word just have been red, and before the memory timing chain was able to write this word back to memory, then this word is cleared out. Interesting. I know another machine that has a similar behavior, which was actually considered a feature. That is the CDC 6000 series. Its peripheral processors do the read-restore cycle of memory as part of the operation of the execution pipeline, rather than with a dedicated data path. PPUs always run (there is no "halt" operation). When you press the boot ("deadstart") button, that forces a specific address into the program counter register. That happens at a pipeline state between the instruction fetch and the memory restore cycle, so while the restore write is done, it goes to the fixed address rather than to the address that was just read. The result is that a PPU memory dump tells you where the PC pointed, if you are lucky enough to find a zero in the code section of memory that doesn't belong there. Since PP dumps only give you memory (no registers) this actually matters for debugging. This feature was known as system programmer lore but not documented. Analyzing the block diagrams carefully would show it, though, and a VHDL model makes it crystal clear. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Oct 30 12:21:14 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 13:21:14 -0400 Subject: behaviour of classic PDP-8 frontpanel In-Reply-To: References: <4caaa85f-b5c2-1e5f-8526-2fd7bcb8fb6a@gmail.com> <73BC4DA9-3964-46F7-991F-DF3BF6C8B87A@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Oct 30, 2018, at 1:14 PM, dwight wrote: > > My Nicolet did the same thing it would load 0 into the intended start location ( on my machine it was a jump to 0 ). > The front panel worked fine otherwise. It turned out to be some missing clocks because of a bad 7474. Strange that a common problem on different machine created by completely different issue but all writing 0 back to core. Not all that strange. Reading core clears it. So if the restore cycle is either suppressed or diverted to the wrong address, you keep that zero at the location just read. paul From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Oct 30 12:28:06 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 13:28:06 -0400 Subject: behaviour of classic PDP-8 frontpanel In-Reply-To: References: <4caaa85f-b5c2-1e5f-8526-2fd7bcb8fb6a@gmail.com> <73BC4DA9-3964-46F7-991F-DF3BF6C8B87A@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 1:21 PM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Oct 30, 2018, at 1:14 PM, dwight wrote: > > > > My Nicolet did the same thing it would load 0 into the intended start > location ( on my machine it was a jump to 0 ). > > The front panel worked fine otherwise. It turned out to be some missing > clocks because of a bad 7474. Strange that a common problem on different > machine created by completely different issue but all writing 0 back to > core. > > Not all that strange. Reading core clears it. So if the restore cycle is > either suppressed or diverted to the wrong address, you keep that zero at > the location just read. > > paul > > > I believe the straight 8 is set up and ready for testing at the vcfed.org museum, call someone there to mimic your tests. From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Oct 30 13:08:26 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 11:08:26 -0700 Subject: behaviour of classic PDP-8 frontpanel In-Reply-To: References: <4caaa85f-b5c2-1e5f-8526-2fd7bcb8fb6a@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 8:07 AM Klemens Krause via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Is there anybody out with a working classic PDP-8? > > > Now my question to other classic-8 users: What does your machine do, if a > program is running and you press one of the front keys, which shouldn't be > pressed while a program is runnig: , , ? > Logically it makes no sense to press these switches if the machine is > running. > On our Straight-8 at the museum, hitting START appears to cause the running program to hiccup (I assume it's re-STARTing but who knows from where). I was unable to investigate whether memory occasionally gets stomped on during this process (no time at the moment). DEP, EXAM or LOAD ADDRESS causes program execution to stop and the specified action is (apparently) taken, though who knows what it's depositing to or examining from :). - Josh From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 30 13:44:48 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 11:44:48 -0700 Subject: i860, was : Re: modern stuff In-Reply-To: <20181030112227.807B318C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20181030112227.807B318C0D2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <7c6118e0-b8a9-6722-4363-48ef6fae13ea@bitsavers.org> On 10/30/18 4:22 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > So, I'm curious - what's the 'most important missing thing' at the > CHM full-time processing staff From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Oct 30 15:04:53 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 14:04:53 -0600 Subject: 2 huge warehouses full of old computers In-Reply-To: <003a01d4706d$c544e5c0$4fceb140$@net> References: <26c001d46fc1$036ec7b0$0a4c5710$@com> <3dc695c1-14ff-40ce-68f9-ce72a8764c12@thereinhardts.org> <902C0B1E-FD01-4792-977D-F559D07A398E@eschatologist.net> <003a01d4706d$c544e5c0$4fceb140$@net> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 10:29 AM Ali via cctalk wrote: > > > I guess someone has been looking at the site > > > Their inventory search broke. > > > > I managed to do a search for Apollo stuff and their prices are > > outrageous. > > > > They are definitely not aimed at the hobbyist. More of one of those > operations were they are looking to cash in on desperate businesses needing > to replace a part urgently. > Yes, their business model is to sell a once common $10 part for $500 because it's an exact replacement and the cost to warehouse it is dwarfed by the huge profit margin... Warner From bhilpert at shaw.ca Tue Oct 30 15:07:21 2018 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 13:07:21 -0700 Subject: behaviour of classic PDP-8 frontpanel In-Reply-To: References: <4caaa85f-b5c2-1e5f-8526-2fd7bcb8fb6a@gmail.com> Message-ID: <08BA7733-BF2E-4ABB-B008-720E57C37E73@shaw.ca> On 2018-Oct-30, at 8:07 AM, Klemens Krause via cctalk wrote: > Is there anybody out with a working classic PDP-8? > > For a long time we had the problem, that starting a program on our 8 by pressing keys, this program crashed. Examining the memory contents showed, that typically one or two words short behind the starting adress after such a crash had inadvertently content 0000. > For a long time I suspected a subtle memory problem. But now after carfully having revised the memory timing I hopefully found the real reason for this nasty misbehaviour: > if the machine is running and I press the key, it stops and > there is also the chance, that one word in memory is nullified. > A look in the maintenance manual shows, that pressing clears the memory data register and others asynchronously. Naturally if this occours in the moment, when a memory read is in progress, data from core has been transfered to memory data register, which clears the word just have been red, and before the memory timing chain was able to write this word back to memory, then this word is cleared out. > > Scoping the signal coming from the front panel shows heavy bouncing of this key: ing a program produces in many cases more than one pulse. The first starting the program, the following in some cases nullifying a memory location near the start address. The problem showed only, if the second start pulse came just in the moment > between reading and rewriting the word in core. In the other cases > program just went on. > > My workaround for this problem in the moment is a 22uF electrolytic capacitor > between the signal line and ground to make a "brut force" debounce of this switch. . . . If you haven't tried it already, a good exercising with contact cleaner (stay away from the stuff with oil in it) or isoprop will often clear up excessive contact bounce on old switches. Getting contact cleaner into the switch can sometimes be difficult though. With mini-toggle switches (if that's what they are behind the flat levers) the toggle can usually be pressed in a bit against the internal spring to open come clearance down the throat. For a proper design fix, if the switch has both NO and NC contacts, a solution might be to build an SR flip-flop from two transistors and a few R and interposing that between the switch and logic as a de-bounce circuit. From linimon at lonesome.com Tue Oct 30 15:36:32 2018 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 20:36:32 +0000 Subject: 2 huge warehouses full of old computers In-Reply-To: References: <26c001d46fc1$036ec7b0$0a4c5710$@com> <3dc695c1-14ff-40ce-68f9-ce72a8764c12@thereinhardts.org> <902C0B1E-FD01-4792-977D-F559D07A398E@eschatologist.net> <003a01d4706d$c544e5c0$4fceb140$@net> Message-ID: <20181030203632.GA14419@lonesome.com> On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 02:04:53PM -0600, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > Yes, their business model is to sell a once common $10 part for $500 > because it's an exact replacement and the cost to warehouse it is dwarfed > by the huge profit margin... Before anyone scoffs, warehouse space is expensive. It drove the company I was last working for to move out of Austin. Their business was similar but more oriented towards e.g. getting newer machines, disk-wiping them, and selling on eBay. The selling prices are/were competitive and so the margins were much lower. Thus, they couldn't afford to keep things around for years. Two different business models. mcl From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Oct 30 17:22:52 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 16:22:52 -0600 Subject: 2 huge warehouses full of old computers In-Reply-To: <902C0B1E-FD01-4792-977D-F559D07A398E@eschatologist.net> References: <26c001d46fc1$036ec7b0$0a4c5710$@com> <3dc695c1-14ff-40ce-68f9-ce72a8764c12@thereinhardts.org> <902C0B1E-FD01-4792-977D-F559D07A398E@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: On 10/29/2018 06:36 PM, Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: > I managed to do a search for Apollo stuff and their prices are outrageous. I have heard through the grapevine that the prices shown are MSRP and meant for businesses. Purportedly they will provide much more reasonable pricing if you mention to to them that you're a hobbyist. I have no first hand knowledge if this is true or not. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From jstefanikcctalk at gmail.com Tue Oct 30 19:37:37 2018 From: jstefanikcctalk at gmail.com (Jim Stefanik) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 19:37:37 -0500 Subject: 2 huge warehouses full of old computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: These guys are fairly local to me...20 minute drive or so. I might take a hike out there and see if they're any good or a joke. Jim ________________________________ From: Grant Taylor via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, 30 October 2018 17:22 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: 2 huge warehouses full of old computers On 10/29/2018 06:36 PM, Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: > I managed to do a search for Apollo stuff and their prices are outrageous. I have heard through the grapevine that the prices shown are MSRP and meant for businesses. Purportedly they will provide much more reasonable pricing if you mention to to them that you're a hobbyist. I have no first hand knowledge if this is true or not. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Oct 30 20:39:28 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 01:39:28 +0000 Subject: The Andromeda Disk Controller again Message-ID: When we talked about this little bit ago I thought there were a couple other people who had them.? Any chance someone has a copy of the utilities disk they could rip and email to me? I just tried to read? mine and it appears to have a bad spot right on the oct.sav file which is the program for configuring the card. bill From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 30 20:44:08 2018 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 20:44:08 -0500 Subject: MSDN CD disposition In-Reply-To: References: <36ea1c02-d253-5cac-a9ff-cad4782f2894@bitsavers.org> <8af8e477-cac1-2c89-089b-8d90c4ecd204@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20181031014506.0A45F4E77C@mx2.ezwind.net> At 04:29 PM 10/29/2018, geneb via cctalk wrote: >There's a ton of them on the IA already. I would /love/ to get the early ones. My collection begins at 1997 so I would *eagerly* take anything previous to that. Oh, I'd guess I have them all from '94 to 97 at least, including the non-Intel MIPS and Alpha sets. Does the Internet Archive had an easy tool that lets me put a CD in my drive and it'll tell me if they already have it? - John From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Tue Oct 30 21:01:14 2018 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 21:01:14 -0500 Subject: Looking for HP Laserjet IIp+ power supply Message-ID: <3C921D8AF52947A2865B067A34901E7E@CharlesDellLap> The main power supply for my ancient Laserjet IIp+ printer has given up. Fuse is not blown. Power switch has continuity... don't feel like trying to debug and repair the "brick". There are two Sony labels: One says Model RG1-1782 (I think that's the HP part number) and the other Model CD-91A, 100-115V. Does anyone have a working one in their junkbox? This is the LAST time I repair it before it goes to the recycler! I think I've changed every module except this one. It has become my grandfather's axe: new head and new handle, but it's still my grandfather's axe :) thanks Charles From ethan at 757.org Tue Oct 30 21:55:21 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 22:55:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 2 huge warehouses full of old computers In-Reply-To: <20181030203632.GA14419@lonesome.com> References: <26c001d46fc1$036ec7b0$0a4c5710$@com> <3dc695c1-14ff-40ce-68f9-ce72a8764c12@thereinhardts.org> <902C0B1E-FD01-4792-977D-F559D07A398E@eschatologist.net> <003a01d4706d$c544e5c0$4fceb140$@net> <20181030203632.GA14419@lonesome.com> Message-ID: > Before anyone scoffs, warehouse space is expensive. It drove the > company I was last working for to move out of Austin. Their business Depends when it was bought. Pre-bubble or after the largest real estate bubble in the history of mankind. From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Tue Oct 30 22:39:33 2018 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 00:39:33 -0300 Subject: Looking for HP Laserjet IIp+ power supply In-Reply-To: <3C921D8AF52947A2865B067A34901E7E@CharlesDellLap> References: <3C921D8AF52947A2865B067A34901E7E@CharlesDellLap> Message-ID: I miss the old IIp / IIIp printers :'( <3 They were small bricks, but they were so cute.... ---8<---Corte aqui---8<--- http://www.tabajara-labs.blogspot.com http://www.tabalabs.com.br ---8<---Corte aqui---8<--- Em ter, 30 de out de 2018 ?s 23:01, Charles via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> escreveu: > The main power supply for my ancient Laserjet IIp+ printer has given up. > Fuse is not blown. Power switch has continuity... don't feel like trying > to > debug and repair the "brick". > > There are two Sony labels: One says Model RG1-1782 (I think that's the HP > part number) and the other Model CD-91A, 100-115V. > Does anyone have a working one in their junkbox? > > This is the LAST time I repair it before it goes to the recycler! I think > I've changed every module except this one. > It has become my grandfather's axe: new head and new handle, but it's > still > my grandfather's axe :) > > thanks > Charles > > From smj at crash.com Tue Oct 30 13:25:58 2018 From: smj at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 11:25:58 -0700 Subject: Books available ACM CALGO Vols I, II, III, loosleaf+microfice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <92f67aae-8e84-7b9d-c8bd-fb25cf8b794c@crash.com> Hi Chuck, On 10/30/2018 09:15, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > Anyone interested in three hardbound volumes of ACM CALGO, starting with > Algorithm 1, plus a large looseleaf binder and > assorted microfiche (assuming that I can still find them)? > > Drop me a line if so. Sure, I'm curious. When you unearth them, I'd provide a home. Be advised I'm heading to Japan for two weeks on Saturday, so I may ask that they be shipped to my office (well, I might do that anyway...). LMK, --S. -- Steven M Jones CRASH Computing e: smj at crash.com From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Tue Oct 30 18:27:19 2018 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 19:27:19 -0400 Subject: i860: Re: modern stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > From: Ken Seefried > Subject: i860: Re: modern stuff > >the i860 found at least a little niche on graphics boards, so somehow > >not a complete failure ;-) > > I have a Quad-i860 VME board in one of my Sun systems. Michael Thompson From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Oct 31 05:27:23 2018 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 11:27:23 +0100 Subject: Updates at retroarchive.org... In-Reply-To: References: <36ea1c02-d253-5cac-a9ff-cad4782f2894@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20181031102723.GC6450@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 01:53:18PM -0700, geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 29 Oct 2018, Al Kossow wrote: > > > > > > >On 10/29/18 12:54 PM, geneb wrote: > > > >>Here's the Walnut Creek collection: https://archive.org/details/walnutcreekcdrom > > > >It sure would be nice if you could get a comma separated list of metadata instead of > >a bunch of pretty pictures > > > >THAT is where IA is a colossal FAIL > You realize that you can click a button and get a text list of those > "pretty pictures", right? Click the "Show Details" checkbox and > you'll get a block of text that describes each one. > It's very time consuming to browse through that though. It would be nice if you could make the service more accessible. A csv export of a table including metadata for each entry shouldn't be so hard. It would probably save you some bandwith as well. /P From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 31 06:58:11 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 04:58:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MSDN CD disposition In-Reply-To: <20181031014506.0A45F4E77C@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <36ea1c02-d253-5cac-a9ff-cad4782f2894@bitsavers.org> <8af8e477-cac1-2c89-089b-8d90c4ecd204@sydex.com> <20181031014506.0A45F4E77C@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Oct 2018, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > At 04:29 PM 10/29/2018, geneb via cctalk wrote: >> There's a ton of them on the IA already. I would /love/ to get the early ones. My collection begins at 1997 so I would *eagerly* take anything previous to that. > > Oh, I'd guess I have them all from '94 to 97 at least, > including the non-Intel MIPS and Alpha sets. > > Does the Internet Archive had an easy tool that lets me put a CD > in my drive and it'll tell me if they already have it? You can try searching for the discs you have to see if they're already there, but as far as I know, there's nothing automatic like that. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 31 07:01:18 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 05:01:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Updates at retroarchive.org... In-Reply-To: <20181031102723.GC6450@Update.UU.SE> References: <36ea1c02-d253-5cac-a9ff-cad4782f2894@bitsavers.org> <20181031102723.GC6450@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Oct 2018, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 01:53:18PM -0700, geneb via cctalk wrote: >> On Mon, 29 Oct 2018, Al Kossow wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On 10/29/18 12:54 PM, geneb wrote: >>> >>>> Here's the Walnut Creek collection: https://archive.org/details/walnutcreekcdrom >>> >>> It sure would be nice if you could get a comma separated list of metadata instead of >>> a bunch of pretty pictures >>> >>> THAT is where IA is a colossal FAIL >> You realize that you can click a button and get a text list of those >> "pretty pictures", right? Click the "Show Details" checkbox and >> you'll get a block of text that describes each one. >> > > It's very time consuming to browse through that though. > > It would be nice if you could make the service more > accessible. A csv export of a table including metadata for > each entry shouldn't be so hard. It would probably save you > some bandwith as well. Take it up with the Internet Archive. Not my circus, not my monkey. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Oct 31 08:04:07 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 09:04:07 -0400 Subject: Updates at retroarchive.org... In-Reply-To: References: <36ea1c02-d253-5cac-a9ff-cad4782f2894@bitsavers.org> <20181031102723.GC6450@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: > > > >> > > > > It's very time consuming to browse through that though. > > > > It would be nice if you could make the service more > > accessible. A csv export of a table including metadata for > > each entry shouldn't be so hard. It would probably save you > > some bandwith as well. > > Take it up with the Internet Archive. Not my circus, not my monkey. > > g. > > For the record you're saying that you have a circus and a monkey but they're not to be used for such things, or that the Inernet Archive uses circus monkeys. Because I think that's great, once the circus no longer needs them that they have a home doing meaningful work. From ats at offog.org Wed Oct 31 08:13:58 2018 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 13:13:58 +0000 Subject: Updates at retroarchive.org... In-Reply-To: <36ea1c02-d253-5cac-a9ff-cad4782f2894@bitsavers.org> (Al Kossow via cctalk's message of "Mon, 29 Oct 2018 13:46:50 -0700") References: <36ea1c02-d253-5cac-a9ff-cad4782f2894@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Al Kossow via cctalk writes: > On 10/29/18 12:54 PM, geneb wrote: >> https://archive.org/details/walnutcreekcdrom > It sure would be nice if you could get a comma separated list of > metadata instead of a bunch of pretty pictures It's fairly well hidden, but you can indeed do that: https://archive.org/advancedsearch.php?q=collection%3Awalnutcreekcdrom&fl[]=identifier&output=csv There's some documentation here: . The "advanced search" form is handy for setting up queries like the above. The Python internetarchive module comes with a command-line tool "ia" which can drive much of archive.org's interface programmatically; I use it for searching and batch uploads/downloads rather than the web interface. Cheers, -- Adam Sampson From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Wed Oct 31 07:29:28 2018 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?St=C3=A9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 14:29:28 +0200 Subject: PDP, Data General & more (TV show Maniac) Message-ID: Hi all, TV show Maniac (available on netflix), S1E2 @28.48, at least a PDP 11/40, 11/05 or 04, RX01, PDP-8, and 2 Data General Eclipse, DEC doc binders, and maybe an IBM front panel and more. See https://imgur.com/a/L3iA9CD https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maniac_(miniseries) -- ??phane tsacas From krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Oct 31 09:37:19 2018 From: krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Klemens Krause) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 15:37:19 +0100 (MET) Subject: behaviour of classic PDP-8 frontpanel In-Reply-To: <08BA7733-BF2E-4ABB-B008-720E57C37E73@shaw.ca> References: <4caaa85f-b5c2-1e5f-8526-2fd7bcb8fb6a@gmail.com> <08BA7733-BF2E-4ABB-B008-720E57C37E73@shaw.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Oct 2018, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > > If you haven't tried it already, a good exercising with contactr > cleaner (stay away from the stuff with oil in it) or isoprop will often > clear up excessive contact bounce on old switches. Getting contact > May be, but this would only solve one of the problems. In many cases contact cleaner works some time an then problems come back, because in the past 50 years the original silver platening of the contacts has gone away. > For a proper design fix, if the switch has both NO and NC contacts, a > solution might be to build an SR flip-flop from two transistors and a > few R and interposing that between the switch and logic as a de-bounce > circuit. Yes this would solve one problem. But I don't want revise the logic of such a historic machine. And the other problem wouldn't be solved: the machine stops if any of the keys is pressed while the machine is runnig. A look behind the panel shows: are single wired with the N.O. contacts of the switches. So they have open inputs with a potential of -1.9V or -3.9V . Activting one of these keys makes contact N.O. to ground. The other keys are connected to the middle of the N.O - N.C switches. Inactivated N.C. is connected to -15V, bringing this level to the inputs. Activated, the N.O. makes connection to ground. is simply a switch, which interrupts the common ground- line of these switches. The better solution would be a feed back line, which holds the former ground line to 0V if the "RUN-FF" is reset and puts it to -3,9V or -15V if "RUN-FF" is set. The first connect of the start key would start the machine and set "RUN-FF", thus locking the switches by the processor itself. Subsequent contact bounces would be ignored. Inadvertent pressing one of the other controlswitches would be ignored too. Naturally and remain hard wired to ground, to allow stopping a running machine. But this improvement would need a siginficant rewiring of the front- panel which I don't want to do for historical reasons. Other writers in this thread wrote, that: > On our Straight-8 at the museum, hitting START appears to cause the > running program to hiccup (I assume it's re-STARTing but who knows from > where). I was Nice word "hiccup", :-) probably the same effect than at our machine. So this seems to be normal. May be that was corrected in later machines with higher serial number? Our machine has serial number #768 More behaviour, that I tested: stops the running machine and puts contents of SR in the actual address that is in this moment in the MA-register. stops the machine and loads SR in MAR. stops the machine and shows content of current address in MAR. has no effect. No one of theses switches ever cleared a memory word. Eventually they are synchronised with the memory timing chain, whereas works asynchronously and clears most or all FFs. Klemens From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 31 10:10:41 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 08:10:41 -0700 Subject: i860: Re: modern stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/30/18 4:27 PM, Michael Thompson via cctech wrote: > I have a Quad-i860 VME board in one of my Sun systems. Do you have any of the software for it? From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Wed Oct 31 14:36:36 2018 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 12:36:36 -0700 Subject: i860: Re: modern stuff In-Reply-To: <4caaa85f-b5c2-1e5f-8526-2fd7bcb8fb6a@gmail.com> References: <4caaa85f-b5c2-1e5f-8526-2fd7bcb8fb6a@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Oct 30, 2018, at 6:48 AM, Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk wrote: > > So, what is this i960-based card for? Could it be related to what you say in your post? > > https://imgur.com/NIvQPBv > https://imgur.com/hsF0jO2 > https://imgur.com/7f6sxDj > https://imgur.com/w96cLhT Just from the wording on the label it seems like some sort of telecom card, but it could also be a development board for the software that would run on telecom systems. -- Chris From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Oct 31 15:16:11 2018 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 13:16:11 -0700 Subject: PDP, Data General & more (TV show Maniac) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <79d2f505-af3c-6e7f-5318-1519f27614f4@jwsss.com> On 10/31/2018 5:29 AM, St?phane Tsacas via cctalk wrote: > TV show Maniac (available on netflix), S1E2 @28.48, at least a PDP 11/40, > 11/05 or 04, RX01, PDP-8, and 2 Data General Eclipse, DEC doc binders, and > maybe an IBM front panel and more. > See > https://imgur.com/a/L3iA9CD > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maniac_(miniseries) I grabbed some more frames in this blog entry. I'd be interested in the IBM 360 model.? To my eye I think it's a /40 front panel.? That should be the start in my estimation, but it's not lit up, nor are much of the other classic stuff. https://jim-st.blogspot.com/2018/10/maniac-netflix-original-show.html From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Oct 31 16:27:00 2018 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric Korpela) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 14:27:00 -0700 Subject: i860: Re: modern stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The i860 did find some use in the radio astronomy world. Here's an excerpt from the 1998 annual report for the Arecibo Observatory... -------------- Telescope pointing and realtime data acquisition are controlled using a network of VMEbus single-board computers running the VxWorks operating system kernel. Custom-built data acquisition devices (??backends??) include (1) a general purpose A/D system capable of sampling four analog channels at up to 10-MHz rates with programmable resolutions of 1 to 12 bits per sample per channel, (2) an ~interim! 50-MHz, 4096-lag Spectral Line Correlator with programmable bandwidth from 195 kHz to 50 MHz, (3) a 50-MHz Radar Decoder, ~4! a 100-MHz Spectral Line Correlator being developed, (5) a 10-MHz bandwidth Pulsar Search/Timing Machine with up to 256 channels, and (6) a wideband continuum/polarimetry instrument being developed. An S2 VLBI system is also available. Additional realtime signal processing capability is provided by four Skybolt i860-based VMEbus single-board computers with 240 MFLOPS peak combined capacity. -------------- Remember when 240 MFLOPS was a lot? I also seem to recall that the SERENDIP III SETI spectrometer used i860 and Austek A41102 FFT processors. I'm pretty sure SERENDIP IV used i960 and Xylinx FPGAs to do the FFTs. I'll look at the boards tomorrow. On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 9:56 AM Ken Seefried via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >the i860 found at least a little niche on graphics boards, so somehow > >not a complete failure ;-) > > I'd be mildly surprised if Intel ever made enough from selling i860s > as GPUs to cover the cost of developing and marketing them. At the > time, Intel was pushing them as their RISC processor, and put a lot > into the program. Going to take over the world and all that. Maybe > not a 'complete' failure...just mostly. > > From: Chuck Guzis > >On 10/26/18 6:10 AM, Gordon Henderson via cctalk wrote: > > > >> However it was a royal PITA to code for although a 32-bit CPU, it would > >> read memory 64 bits at a time (actually 128 IIRC to satisfy the cache), > >> with half that 64-bit word being an instruction for the integer unit and > >> half for the floating point unit, so you effectively had to build a > >> floating point pipeline by hand coded instructions, so 8 (I think) > >> instructions to load the pipeline, then each subsequent instruction > >> would feed another value into the pipe, then another 8 at the end to > >> empty it. Great for big matrix operations, rubbish for a single add of 2 > >> FP numbers. > > > >My impression of the i860 was that it might have been fun for about 2 > >weeks for which to code assembly, but after that, you'd really start > >looking hard for an HLL to do the dirty work for you. While there's a > >sense of accomplishment over looking at a page of painfully > >hand-optimized code that manages to keep everything busy with no > >"bubbles", you begin to wonder if there isn't a better way to spend your > >life. > > It wasn't fun for the whole 2 weeks. And the i860 is Yet Another > example of Intel claiming their compilers were going to be so smart > that all the architectural complexity/warts will never be noticed. > Wrong, and they didn't learn and said the same thing about Itanium. > The interrupt stall issue that Gordon pointed out was so bad they were > basically relegated to single-task software in the end. > > KJ > -- Eric Korpela korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu AST:7731^29u18e3 From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Oct 31 16:29:18 2018 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric Korpela) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 14:29:18 -0700 Subject: i860: Re: modern stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A Google search on Skybolt i860 produces interesting results. On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 2:27 PM Eric Korpela wrote: > The i860 did find some use in the radio astronomy world. > > Here's an excerpt from the 1998 annual report for the Arecibo > Observatory... > -------------- > Telescope pointing and realtime data acquisition are controlled using a > network of VMEbus single-board computers running the VxWorks operating > system kernel. Custom-built data acquisition devices (??backends??) include > (1) a general purpose A/D system capable of sampling four analog channels > at up to 10-MHz rates with programmable resolutions of 1 to 12 bits per > sample per channel, (2) an ~interim! 50-MHz, 4096-lag Spectral Line > Correlator with programmable bandwidth from 195 kHz to 50 MHz, (3) a 50-MHz > Radar Decoder, ~4! a 100-MHz Spectral Line Correlator being developed, (5) > a 10-MHz bandwidth Pulsar Search/Timing Machine with up to 256 channels, > and (6) a wideband continuum/polarimetry instrument being developed. An S2 > VLBI system is also available. Additional realtime signal processing > capability is provided by four Skybolt i860-based VMEbus single-board > computers with 240 MFLOPS peak combined capacity. > -------------- > Remember when 240 MFLOPS was a lot? > > I also seem to recall that the SERENDIP III SETI spectrometer used i860 > and Austek A41102 FFT processors. I'm pretty sure SERENDIP IV used i960 > and Xylinx FPGAs to do the FFTs. I'll look at the boards tomorrow. > > > > On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 9:56 AM Ken Seefried via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >the i860 found at least a little niche on graphics boards, so somehow >> >not a complete failure ;-) >> >> I'd be mildly surprised if Intel ever made enough from selling i860s >> as GPUs to cover the cost of developing and marketing them. At the >> time, Intel was pushing them as their RISC processor, and put a lot >> into the program. Going to take over the world and all that. Maybe >> not a 'complete' failure...just mostly. >> >> From: Chuck Guzis >> >On 10/26/18 6:10 AM, Gordon Henderson via cctalk wrote: >> > >> >> However it was a royal PITA to code for although a 32-bit CPU, it would >> >> read memory 64 bits at a time (actually 128 IIRC to satisfy the cache), >> >> with half that 64-bit word being an instruction for the integer unit >> and >> >> half for the floating point unit, so you effectively had to build a >> >> floating point pipeline by hand coded instructions, so 8 (I think) >> >> instructions to load the pipeline, then each subsequent instruction >> >> would feed another value into the pipe, then another 8 at the end to >> >> empty it. Great for big matrix operations, rubbish for a single add of >> 2 >> >> FP numbers. >> > >> >My impression of the i860 was that it might have been fun for about 2 >> >weeks for which to code assembly, but after that, you'd really start >> >looking hard for an HLL to do the dirty work for you. While there's a >> >sense of accomplishment over looking at a page of painfully >> >hand-optimized code that manages to keep everything busy with no >> >"bubbles", you begin to wonder if there isn't a better way to spend your >> >life. >> >> It wasn't fun for the whole 2 weeks. And the i860 is Yet Another >> example of Intel claiming their compilers were going to be so smart >> that all the architectural complexity/warts will never be noticed. >> Wrong, and they didn't learn and said the same thing about Itanium. >> The interrupt stall issue that Gordon pointed out was so bad they were >> basically relegated to single-task software in the end. >> >> KJ >> > > > -- > Eric Korpela > korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu > AST:7731^29u18e3 > -- Eric Korpela korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu AST:7731^29u18e3 From carlojpisani at gmail.com Wed Oct 31 14:37:49 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 20:37:49 +0100 Subject: BBS card, ISA8bit multi serial, 4 channels In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: hi guys I have an ISA8bit card with four UART chip on it, and the special cable. it comes with the original manual and a floppy (5.25") with drivers for XENIX and DOS, etc it was used for BBS, and I am willing to sell since it's not in use it's located in Italy (where my parents live), I can ship worldwide regards Carlo From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Wed Oct 31 16:33:10 2018 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 22:33:10 +0100 Subject: PDP, Data General & more (TV show Maniac) In-Reply-To: <79d2f505-af3c-6e7f-5318-1519f27614f4@jwsss.com> References: <79d2f505-af3c-6e7f-5318-1519f27614f4@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Looks more like a model 30 to me; the model 40 panel has regular lamps rather than the lights behind an overlay. ?On 10/31/18, 9:16 PM, "cctalk on behalf of jim stephens via cctalk" wrote: I'd be interested in the IBM 360 model. To my eye I think it's a /40 front panel. That should be the start in my estimation, but it's not lit up, nor are much of the other classic stuff. https://jim-st.blogspot.com/2018/10/maniac-netflix-original-show.html From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Wed Oct 31 17:14:29 2018 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 17:14:29 -0500 Subject: Looking for HP Laserjet IIp+ power supply Message-ID: Actually I just fixed it ;) Never Mind. I took the supply all the way apart and found one secondary filter cap that had leaked electrolyte. Cleaned and fixed that, but still no luck. 155 volts on the main filter cap. Then I noticed that occasionally it would try to start for a blink but then the voltages would just drop to zero. So I started looking around the section that had to be for bootstrap power to the switching regulator, a common TL494 chip with datasheets online. Sure enough, a small electrolytic on the primary side had blown its bottom out. The diodes around it were still good. Changed that cap and a couple more suspicious looking small ones and the voltages came right up (including the 24V once I pushed the cover-open microswitch). Put it back in the printer, screwed it all together (a very modular design for easier field servicing) and fired it up. Test page printed perfectly. Saved some $ on a new laser printer. For now :) I like these old cinder-block-sized (and weight) printers too. They last ALMOST forever... Charles From steven at malikoff.com Wed Oct 31 17:15:25 2018 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 08:15:25 +1000 Subject: PDP, Data General & more (TV show Maniac) In-Reply-To: <79d2f505-af3c-6e7f-5318-1519f27614f4@jwsss.com> References: <79d2f505-af3c-6e7f-5318-1519f27614f4@jwsss.com> Message-ID: jim said > On 10/31/2018 5:29 AM, St?phane Tsacas via cctalk wrote: >> TV show Maniac (available on netflix), S1E2 @28.48, at least a PDP 11/40, >> 11/05 or 04, RX01, PDP-8, and 2 Data General Eclipse, DEC doc binders, and >> maybe an IBM front panel and more. >> See >> https://imgur.com/a/L3iA9CD >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maniac_(miniseries) > I grabbed some more frames in this blog entry. > > I'd be interested in the IBM 360 model.? To my eye I think it's a /40 > front panel.? That should > be the start in my estimation, but it's not lit up, nor are much of the > other classic stuff. > > https://jim-st.blogspot.com/2018/10/maniac-netflix-original-show.html Its a /30 console. The Model 40 has the four knobs on the left side, and is the squarest of all the 360 consoles. From tmanos at concursive.com Wed Oct 31 17:25:18 2018 From: tmanos at concursive.com (Tom Manos) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 18:25:18 -0400 Subject: BBS card, ISA8bit multi serial, 4 channels In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a couple of these as well. The one to have way back when was made by AST. It had 4 16550 UARTS and could run them all at whatever speed you wanted. There was even a public domain program/device driver for it, for UNIX on x86 called FAS (Final Async Solution) that worked very well. I still have a copy of it if anyone is running real serial on period hardware and SVR2/3 and maybe others. I ran these boards for a couple years on my public access UNIX system. Tom ------ Tom Manos, CTO Concursive Corporation 222 W 21st, Suite 213 Norfolk, VA. 23517 (757) 627-2760 (office) On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 6:11 PM Carlo Pisani via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > hi guys > I have an ISA8bit card with four UART chip on it, and the special cable. > it comes with the original manual and a floppy (5.25") with drivers > for XENIX and DOS, etc > > it was used for BBS, and I am willing to sell since it's not in use > > it's located in Italy (where my parents live), I can ship worldwide > > regards > Carlo > From tmanos at concursive.com Wed Oct 31 17:25:18 2018 From: tmanos at concursive.com (Tom Manos) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 18:25:18 -0400 Subject: BBS card, ISA8bit multi serial, 4 channels In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a couple of these as well. The one to have way back when was made by AST. It had 4 16550 UARTS and could run them all at whatever speed you wanted. There was even a public domain program/device driver for it, for UNIX on x86 called FAS (Final Async Solution) that worked very well. I still have a copy of it if anyone is running real serial on period hardware and SVR2/3 and maybe others. I ran these boards for a couple years on my public access UNIX system. Tom ------ Tom Manos, CTO Concursive Corporation 222 W 21st, Suite 213 Norfolk, VA. 23517 (757) 627-2760 (office) On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 6:11 PM Carlo Pisani via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > hi guys > I have an ISA8bit card with four UART chip on it, and the special cable. > it comes with the original manual and a floppy (5.25") with drivers > for XENIX and DOS, etc > > it was used for BBS, and I am willing to sell since it's not in use > > it's located in Italy (where my parents live), I can ship worldwide > > regards > Carlo > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 31 18:00:15 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 19:00:15 -0400 Subject: PDP, Data General & more (TV show Maniac) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 9:39 AM St?phane Tsacas via cctalk wrote: > TV show Maniac (available on netflix), S1E2 @28.48, at least a PDP 11/40, > 11/05 or 04, RX01, PDP-8, and 2 Data General Eclipse, DEC doc binders, and > maybe an IBM front panel and more. Looks like a PDP-8/L to me, with a PC04 high-speed paper tape punch/reader below it. -ethan From shumaker at att.net Wed Oct 31 18:54:49 2018 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 16:54:49 -0700 Subject: MSDN CD disposition In-Reply-To: References: <36ea1c02-d253-5cac-a9ff-cad4782f2894@bitsavers.org> <8af8e477-cac1-2c89-089b-8d90c4ecd204@sydex.com> <20181031014506.0A45F4E77C@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <09fd22e9-963b-eb38-741f-461a05278043@att.net> On 10/31/2018 4:58 AM, geneb via cctech wrote: > On Tue, 30 Oct 2018, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > >> At 04:29 PM 10/29/2018, geneb via cctalk wrote: >>> There's a ton of them on the IA already.? I would /love/ to get the >>> early ones.? My collection begins at 1997 so I would *eagerly* take >>> anything previous to that. >> >> Oh, I'd guess I have them all from '94 to 97 at least, >> including the non-Intel MIPS and Alpha sets. >> >> Does the Internet Archive had an easy tool that lets me put a CD >> in my drive and it'll tell me if they already have it? > > You can try searching for the discs you have to see if they're already > there, but as far as I know, there's nothing automatic like that. > > g. > in fact, when asked about duplicates, they will tell you that they specifically encourage duplicates as a form of redundancy and will encourage duplicate submissions for any material they have. Steve From shumaker at att.net Wed Oct 31 18:54:49 2018 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 16:54:49 -0700 Subject: MSDN CD disposition In-Reply-To: References: <36ea1c02-d253-5cac-a9ff-cad4782f2894@bitsavers.org> <8af8e477-cac1-2c89-089b-8d90c4ecd204@sydex.com> <20181031014506.0A45F4E77C@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <09fd22e9-963b-eb38-741f-461a05278043@att.net> On 10/31/2018 4:58 AM, geneb via cctech wrote: > On Tue, 30 Oct 2018, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > >> At 04:29 PM 10/29/2018, geneb via cctalk wrote: >>> There's a ton of them on the IA already.? I would /love/ to get the >>> early ones.? My collection begins at 1997 so I would *eagerly* take >>> anything previous to that. >> >> Oh, I'd guess I have them all from '94 to 97 at least, >> including the non-Intel MIPS and Alpha sets. >> >> Does the Internet Archive had an easy tool that lets me put a CD >> in my drive and it'll tell me if they already have it? > > You can try searching for the discs you have to see if they're already > there, but as far as I know, there's nothing automatic like that. > > g. > in fact, when asked about duplicates, they will tell you that they specifically encourage duplicates as a form of redundancy and will encourage duplicate submissions for any material they have. Steve From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 31 19:09:41 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 17:09:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MSDN CD disposition In-Reply-To: <8af8e477-cac1-2c89-089b-8d90c4ecd204@sydex.com> References: <36ea1c02-d253-5cac-a9ff-cad4782f2894@bitsavers.org> <8af8e477-cac1-2c89-089b-8d90c4ecd204@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Oct 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > What's Microsoft's policy on old MSDN CDs? I've got a ton of them > starting somewhere around 93-94 and extended through the XP years. > > Do I respect MS's IP and send them to the crusher? On a CASUAL basis, they wouldn't really care about any of the discontinued products. But, if you were to ask for a FORMAL policy statement, then they would have to consult their legal department, and assert their IP rights. (There is no legal recognition of any concept of "abandonware") Because of his museum activities, Paul Allen would have been a good one to get a written INFORMAL opinion from, because he might have understood the concepts. Since there is nothing on them that would identify you, there are a number of people who would gladly help you to properly dispose of them. From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 31 19:18:26 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 17:18:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MSDN CD disposition In-Reply-To: References: <36ea1c02-d253-5cac-a9ff-cad4782f2894@bitsavers.org> <8af8e477-cac1-2c89-089b-8d90c4ecd204@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Oct 2018, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > But, if you were to ask for a FORMAL policy statement, then they would have > to consult their legal department, and assert their IP rights. > (There is no legal recognition of any concept of "abandonware") > The default answer would be "no". Any other answer requires work and would not be pursued. > Since there is nothing on them that would identify you, there are a number of > people who would gladly help you to properly dispose of them. Only if you mean "Upload to the Internet Archive" when you write "dispose". ;) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 31 19:24:01 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 17:24:01 -0700 Subject: MSDN CD disposition In-Reply-To: References: <36ea1c02-d253-5cac-a9ff-cad4782f2894@bitsavers.org> <8af8e477-cac1-2c89-089b-8d90c4ecd204@sydex.com> Message-ID: <68dd0679-49ee-c055-f042-300ad1e200fa@sydex.com> On 10/31/18 5:09 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Since there is nothing on them that would identify you, there are a > number of people who would gladly help you to properly dispose of them. I wonder how many MSDN subscribers held onto the betas and release candidates of various products; e.g., CDs labeled "Code Name Whistler" I haven't thrown away a single CD since 1994. --Chuck From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Oct 31 19:37:47 2018 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 17:37:47 -0700 Subject: MSDN CD disposition In-Reply-To: <68dd0679-49ee-c055-f042-300ad1e200fa@sydex.com> References: <36ea1c02-d253-5cac-a9ff-cad4782f2894@bitsavers.org> <8af8e477-cac1-2c89-089b-8d90c4ecd204@sydex.com> <68dd0679-49ee-c055-f042-300ad1e200fa@sydex.com> Message-ID: <897377aa-14c2-7895-75af-7d120147305e@jwsss.com> On 10/31/2018 5:24 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 10/31/18 5:09 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> Since there is nothing on them that would identify you, there are a >> number of people who would gladly help you to properly dispose of them. > I wonder how many MSDN subscribers held onto the betas and release > candidates of various products; e.g., CDs labeled "Code Name Whistler" > > I haven't thrown away a single CD since 1994. > > --Chuck I'm a packrat.? Have all I ever got, plus some that were gifted to me by tidy bugs. I've had three MSDN subscriptions for work those are the source of my keyed stuff.? Some of the gifted ones are probably useless because they require keys I didn't get. thanks Jim From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Oct 31 19:40:25 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2018 00:40:25 +0000 Subject: MSDN CD disposition In-Reply-To: <68dd0679-49ee-c055-f042-300ad1e200fa@sydex.com> References: <36ea1c02-d253-5cac-a9ff-cad4782f2894@bitsavers.org> <8af8e477-cac1-2c89-089b-8d90c4ecd204@sydex.com> <68dd0679-49ee-c055-f042-300ad1e200fa@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 10/31/18 8:24 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 10/31/18 5:09 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> Since there is nothing on them that would identify you, there are a >> number of people who would gladly help you to properly dispose of them. > I wonder how many MSDN subscribers held onto the betas and release > candidates of various products; e.g., CDs labeled "Code Name Whistler" > > I haven't thrown away a single CD since 1994. > My previous employer was in MSDNAA.? We got rid of all out of date CDs and when they went to downloading we had no CDs left.? The rules require that the CDs be protected when in out possession and be destroyed when expired or replaced. bill From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 31 19:55:56 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 17:55:56 -0700 Subject: MSDN CD disposition In-Reply-To: References: <36ea1c02-d253-5cac-a9ff-cad4782f2894@bitsavers.org> <8af8e477-cac1-2c89-089b-8d90c4ecd204@sydex.com> <68dd0679-49ee-c055-f042-300ad1e200fa@sydex.com> Message-ID: <3bcd0592-08f3-db0a-d856-f3e09414fb66@sydex.com> On 10/31/18 5:40 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > My previous employer was in MSDNAA.? We got rid of > > all out of date CDs and when they went to downloading > > we had no CDs left.? The rules require that the CDs be > > protected when in out possession and be destroyed > > when expired or replaced. So, will the MS cops come pounding on my door demanding that I get rid of old betas of Chicago? --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 31 20:12:40 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 18:12:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MSDN CD disposition In-Reply-To: References: <36ea1c02-d253-5cac-a9ff-cad4782f2894@bitsavers.org> <8af8e477-cac1-2c89-089b-8d90c4ecd204@sydex.com> Message-ID: >> But, if you were to ask for a FORMAL policy statement, then they would have >> to consult their legal department, and assert their IP rights. >> (There is no legal recognition of any concept of "abandonware") >> On Wed, 31 Oct 2018, geneb wrote: > The default answer would be "no". Any other answer requires work and would > not be pursued. EXACTLY. >> Since there is nothing on them that would identify you, there are a number >> of people who would gladly help you to properly dispose of them. > > Only if you mean "Upload to the Internet Archive" when you write "dispose". > ;) Did I ask for trivial petty details of how you would go about destroying and disposing? So long as you assure me that destruction and disposal are done "properly", then I would just have to assume that you do it right. Analogous situation: A friend and his girlfriend were both on the same expensive prescription med. When he was switched to a different one, she took care of complete biological disposal of his leftovers. Should there be an investigation of whether she complied with the official procedures? Although there is absolutely no sort of legal acknowledgement of the concept of "abandonware", there are some situations where prosecution is not deemed worth attempting: BBC is aware that [unauthorized, not great quality] copies of "Hyperland" are on the web. https://archive.org/details/DouglasAdams-Hyperland They seem to have chosen not to enforce their IP. I hope that they don't decide to prosecute me for creating subtitles/captions for it. (there WAS a Swedish subtitle distribution database that was shut down (not for "Hyperland", and probably not by BBC)) https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4hCJm9ZEADCblVSVlBxdmZyREU/view?usp=drive_web (400MB video with subtitles burned in) .SRT file: http://www.xenosoft.com/HyperlandCAPS_En_US_0_77.srt Finding some of the typos would be VERY appreciated! (eg. I was not previously aware of what an "ice lolly" is; a "popsicle"?, and I hope nobody takes offence at my inconsistent spelling of things such as "favourite colour grey") -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com