From lars at nocrew.org  Thu Feb  1 00:53:39 2018
From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2018 06:53:39 +0000
Subject: MACSYMA classic
Message-ID: <7wa7wtdwuk.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

Eric Swenson got the original-ish MACSYMA built and running in ITS.

It's frankensteined together from a mix of source and FASL files from
ITS, Lisp machine Macsyma sources, etc.

From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Thu Feb  1 04:05:53 2018
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 11:05:53 +0100 (CET)
Subject: where to find ZCPR2, ZCPR3, ZCPR33, ZCPR34?
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTQY12Ue0Cnj+NNcMes1aLh53jLFE8qQz5HdVV+PjjeHyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFrGgTQY12Ue0Cnj+NNcMes1aLh53jLFE8qQz5HdVV+PjjeHyw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1802011105280.22358@linuxserv.home>

On Tue, 30 Jan 2018, Eric Smith wrote:
> It looks like ZCPR3 was on SIG/M volumes 184 to 192, but those specific
> volumes seem to be missing from the SIG/M archives I can find.

This?
www.retroarchive.org/cpm/cdrom/ZSYS/SIMTEL20/ZCPR3/

Christian

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu Feb  1 07:19:08 2018
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu,  1 Feb 2018 08:19:08 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Foonlies
Message-ID: <20180201131908.87A5318C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Rich Alderson

    > I'm going to disagree with the history Al posted, because Dick himself
    > told me the story.

What was the history according to Dick, if you recall? Would he still be
available, to write it as he saw it down himself?

	Noel

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu Feb  1 07:28:54 2018
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu,  1 Feb 2018 08:28:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: DL10 documentation
Message-ID: <20180201132854.CB37118C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Phil Budne

    > FWIW, Found these bits
    > ...
    > Those bits and others can be found

Excellent archaeology! With these, and the ITS sources (for which we have both
the -10 and -11 sides), the register definitions in the early PDP-10 CPU
manual, and the prints, it should be possible to write a programming manual
for the DL10, to replace the one that's now lost. (If it ever existed - does
anyone know?)

Any chance I could convince you to enter all this stuff on the CHWiki DL10
article:

  http://gunkies.org/wiki/DL10

Lars (mostly) and I have added a little bit, but there's still a long way to
go!

	Noel

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Thu Feb  1 08:58:07 2018
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 09:58:07 -0500
Subject: chip technology dead-ends (was: Foonlies)
In-Reply-To: <20180201054017.GA15980@lonesome.com>
References: <7wo9lah1og.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
 <417E6E61-BE20-4219-B2EF-F73540ED141C@comcast.net>
 <a61ed2bb-6d99-833b-08eb-bf77423455d3@sydex.com>
 <20180201002048.GA15139@lonesome.com>
 <55376D63-1334-48E8-881F-9D8201A603F6@comcast.net>
 <6739052e-1466-0637-185b-9eacfd5f833e@sydex.com>
 <20180201054017.GA15980@lonesome.com>
Message-ID: <57808A8A-83A2-42DE-BEF2-EE5346928CBD@comcast.net>



> On Feb 1, 2018, at 12:40 AM, Mark Linimon via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 07:07:23PM -0800, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>> Back in the 70s, 4000-series CMOS was among the slowest logic around.
> 
> I really wish I still had one technical magazine that came out during
> the late 70s/early 80s.  (I don't remember which one it was, anymore.)
> It was devoted to keeping you up with the latest chip/minicomputer
> technology.

Lambda? (Later renamed VLSI Design if I remember right.)  I still have the first issue, with an article by Ron Rivest describing the full-custom RSA chip (512 bit ALU) he designed.

As for CMOS for high speed computing, I recently read an interesting article about CDC spinoff ETA betting the company on that.  It worked in the sense that the technology was a success, but the company closed anyway due to the fact that it was controlled by CDC.

http://ethw.org/w/index.php?title=First-Hand:The_First_CMOS_And_The_Only_Cryogenically_Cooled_Supercomputer&oldid=154872

	paul


From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Feb  1 11:00:17 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 09:00:17 -0800
Subject: Foonlies
In-Reply-To: <faf3089fedec4895af121414ac5c3b2d@livingcomputers.org>
References: <7wo9lah1og.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
 <c4c277c6-94ac-7323-ef9c-b965fd7c04cd@bitsavers.org>
 <7wh8r1g766.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
 <faf3089fedec4895af121414ac5c3b2d@livingcomputers.org>
Message-ID: <21998c1c-8a58-0918-30ce-e000b2c89e92@bitsavers.org>



On 1/31/18 6:25 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote:
> 
> The fourth guy was Dick Helliwell, who was hired by DEC when they licensed SUDS
> from SAIL.  I met Dick when we both worked at XKL; he was the major part of the
> effort to make SUDS run on the X Window System, on the KL-10 and later on the
> Toad-1.  I'm going to disagree with the history Al posted, because Dick himself
> told me the story.
> 

It would be good to get the actual history from the source.
I was just parroting a summary, with SUDS as a tiny part.

The observative will find Dick's name on some of the DEC SUDS-generated drawings, "S. Foonly" on others.


From billdegnan at gmail.com  Thu Feb  1 11:09:06 2018
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 12:09:06 -0500
Subject: connecticut micocomputer AIM16
Message-ID: <CABGJBudLr5ML3urMGkJE97sghTueFyvbtrh8_fyojOtLvv+2Zg@mail.gmail.com>

Does anyone have an AIM16 hardware unit made by Connecticut microComputer
company, from the late 70's?  I am working through their cassette software,
a box I got years ago from their internal programming department with
versions and variations of same programs.
Bill

From mike_t_norris at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  1 11:19:05 2018
From: mike_t_norris at hotmail.com (Mike Norris)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 17:19:05 +0000
Subject: SuperTerm Maintenance Manual
Message-ID: <HE1P194MB024984433BE07DF46B902074AAFA0@HE1P194MB0249.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Hi Guys,

I am new to the group, so let me know if this post is inappropriate.


I have a SuperTerm Maintenance Manual that I am about to put in the bin.


I am prepared to scan it if any one is interested, I could not find it on bitsavers.org, but I guess there may be one in the backlog?


The SuperTerm was manufactured by Intertec Data Systems c. 1978, it was a 180 CPS dot matrix printer (RS232), quite often used as a console printer in place of a LA36, Intertec also did a speed up board for the LA36 (I may have details on that when I get through clearing out my loft), to make it a 150 CPS printer, although it was prone to carriage slams initially, same was true of the SuperTerm for a while, which also resulted in the carriage driver transistors burning out. The company I worked for produced a separate driver board to get around the problem, typical patch at the time.


Regards Mike Norris

From spacewar at gmail.com  Thu Feb  1 11:51:27 2018
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 10:51:27 -0700
Subject: SuperTerm Maintenance Manual
In-Reply-To: <HE1P194MB024984433BE07DF46B902074AAFA0@HE1P194MB0249.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <HE1P194MB024984433BE07DF46B902074AAFA0@HE1P194MB0249.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTTJhEPoRcCmWpCDo-yrFaC27Cjaob2pgVU2kn+W4rcHYA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 10:19 AM, Mike Norris via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> The SuperTerm was manufactured by Intertec Data Systems c. 1978, it was a
> 180 CPS dot matrix printer (RS232), quite often used as a console printer
> in place of a LA36,


I know it sounds snarky, and admittedly my sample size is small, but it
seems to me that it was quite _rarely_ used as a console printer in place
of a LA36. Of the DEC machine rooms I saw back in the day (DECsystem-10,
PDP-11, VAX-11/7xx), most used an LA36 or LA120 as the console terminal,
but I also saw one Teletype Model 43 and one VT52. (It was not good
practice to use a CRT as the system console, IMO.)

I saw Intertec Intertube CRT terminals and SuperBrain microcomputers a fair
bit outside the machine rooms, but never saw a SuperTerm, though I'd seen
advertising for it. Given that it cost slightly more than an LA120, if I'd
had to make the choice, I'd have bought an LA120.  Also typically DEC
offered good deals on buying a complete system, at least for the sort of
large systems you'd find in a machine room, so substituting another
vendor's console terminal would cost more than just the delta in price
between the DEC terminal and the other vendor's terminal.

It's possible that some of the console terminals I saw could have had LA36
internal upgrades produced by Intertec or other companies. The only
advantage was that an LA36 could be upgraded to higher speed. The various
third-party graphics upgrades for the LA36 obviously weren't worthwhile for
a console terminal except in so far as they included the speed upgrade.

However, a scan of the SuperTerm maintenance manual definitely would be
good to archive for posterity.

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Thu Feb  1 11:56:34 2018
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 12:56:34 -0500
Subject: SuperTerm Maintenance Manual
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTTJhEPoRcCmWpCDo-yrFaC27Cjaob2pgVU2kn+W4rcHYA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <HE1P194MB024984433BE07DF46B902074AAFA0@HE1P194MB0249.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAFrGgTTJhEPoRcCmWpCDo-yrFaC27Cjaob2pgVU2kn+W4rcHYA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <599BD4B2-7C64-47A2-B3B3-8643C38D1CB3@comcast.net>



> On Feb 1, 2018, at 12:51 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 10:19 AM, Mike Norris via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
>> The SuperTerm was manufactured by Intertec Data Systems c. 1978, it was a
>> 180 CPS dot matrix printer (RS232), quite often used as a console printer
>> in place of a LA36,
> 
> 
> I know it sounds snarky, and admittedly my sample size is small, but it
> seems to me that it was quite _rarely_ used as a console printer in place
> of a LA36. Of the DEC machine rooms I saw back in the day (DECsystem-10,
> PDP-11, VAX-11/7xx), most used an LA36 or LA120 as the console terminal,
> but I also saw one Teletype Model 43 and one VT52. (It was not good
> practice to use a CRT as the system console, IMO.)

My college experience (1973-1975) with consoles started with a ASR-33, then an LA30, and finally an LA36.  The LA30 was, amazingly enough, even less reliable than the ASR-33.  The LA36, on the other hand, was rock solid (as was the LA120, which I didn't see until after I went to DEC).

As for CRTs, it all depends on the design assumptions.  Lots of operating system console interfaces are designed on the assumption you have hardcopy consoles, and if so a CRT is a bad idea.  But you can certainly make CRT consoles and have it work -- consider the CDC 6000 series.

	paul


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu Feb  1 12:00:07 2018
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu,  1 Feb 2018 13:00:07 -0500 (EST)
Subject: MACSYMA classic
Message-ID: <20180201180007.BBF2118C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Lars Brinkhoff

    > It's frankensteined together from a mix of source and FASL files

FASL? So some of the sources are apparently gone?

	Noel

From mike_t_norris at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  1 12:01:21 2018
From: mike_t_norris at hotmail.com (Mike Norris)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 18:01:21 +0000
Subject: SuperTerm Maintenance Manual
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTTJhEPoRcCmWpCDo-yrFaC27Cjaob2pgVU2kn+W4rcHYA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <HE1P194MB024984433BE07DF46B902074AAFA0@HE1P194MB0249.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>,
 <CAFrGgTTJhEPoRcCmWpCDo-yrFaC27Cjaob2pgVU2kn+W4rcHYA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <HE1P194MB02490560839F3284F91D4EB8AAFA0@HE1P194MB0249.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Hi Eric,


>I know it sounds snarky, and admittedly my sample size is small, but it
>seems to me that it was quite _rarely_ used as a console printer in place
>of a LA36. Of the DEC machine rooms I saw back in the day (DECsystem-10,
>PDP-11, VAX-11/7xx), most used an LA36 or LA120 as the console terminal,
>but I also saw one Teletype Model 43 and one VT52. (It was not good
>practice to use a CRT as the system console, IMO.)


I worked in the Multivendor Environment so DEC (OEM 11's) so DEC terminals weren't that common there and when we first started using it I don't think we had access the LA120 (here in the UK at least!)

>However, a scan of the SuperTerm maintenance manual definitely would be
>good to archive for posterity.

Do you know were or how is the best place to send the scan (sorry this is my first post)?

Regards Mike Norris


From spacewar at gmail.com  Thu Feb  1 12:01:43 2018
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 11:01:43 -0700
Subject: SuperTerm Maintenance Manual
In-Reply-To: <599BD4B2-7C64-47A2-B3B3-8643C38D1CB3@comcast.net>
References: <HE1P194MB024984433BE07DF46B902074AAFA0@HE1P194MB0249.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAFrGgTTJhEPoRcCmWpCDo-yrFaC27Cjaob2pgVU2kn+W4rcHYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <599BD4B2-7C64-47A2-B3B3-8643C38D1CB3@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTR4zbe0c=1J4VaB7im=Fe_qcN06bCX7Rp8mDiB6M7ut=w@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 10:56 AM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:

> > On Feb 1, 2018, at 12:51 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> > console terminal [...] VT52. (It was not good
> > practice to use a CRT as the system console, IMO.)
>
> As for CRTs, it all depends on the design assumptions.  Lots of operating
> system console interfaces are designed on the assumption you have hardcopy
> consoles, and if so a CRT is a bad idea.  But you can certainly make CRT
> consoles and have it work -- consider the CDC 6000 series.
>

Just a wild-ass guess, but I suspect that a typical CDC 6600 system would
have had a printer that logged console interaction?  I'm only suggesting
that a CRT console with no logging was a bad idea.

Of course, in principle the logging could be to disk or tape, but I don't
think most "machine-room" people would have trusted that nearly as much for
a console log. One wants a log of what happened on the console even when
the system was not working well.

From lars at nocrew.org  Thu Feb  1 12:06:40 2018
From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2018 18:06:40 +0000
Subject: MACSYMA classic
In-Reply-To: <20180201180007.BBF2118C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> (Noel Chiappa
 via cctalk's message of "Thu, 1 Feb 2018 13:00:07 -0500 (EST)")
References: <20180201180007.BBF2118C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <7wd11od1ov.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

Noel Chiappa wrote:
>> It's frankensteined together from a mix of source and FASL files
> FASL? So some of the sources are apparently gone?

Right, we haven't found sources for everything in Macsyma.  I'd say
we're lucky to have it running at all, and also that we have a former
Macsyma staff member working on it!

From lars at nocrew.org  Thu Feb  1 12:32:05 2018
From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2018 18:32:05 +0000
Subject: Foonlies
In-Reply-To: <7wh8r1g766.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> (Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk's
 message of "Wed, 31 Jan 2018 19:27:45 +0000")
References: <7wo9lah1og.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
 <c4c277c6-94ac-7323-ef9c-b965fd7c04cd@bitsavers.org>
 <7wh8r1g766.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
Message-ID: <7w4ln0d0ii.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

Lars Brinkhoff wrote:
> Al Kossow wrote:
>>> SUPERFOONLY   DESIGNED 1968-71
>> Was this ever built?
> This says the Superfoonly was designed.  Doesn't say it was actually
> built.

Confirmed by Dave Dyer:

   The original foonly design at Stanford was a paper design; I don't
   think there were actual schematics or board layouts.  I believe it
   was proposed to be built using the best available TTL components.

   I think the F1 was essentially the same design, but obviously with
   full schematics and board layout, using faster ECL components.

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Thu Feb  1 12:42:05 2018
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 13:42:05 -0500
Subject: SuperTerm Maintenance Manual
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTR4zbe0c=1J4VaB7im=Fe_qcN06bCX7Rp8mDiB6M7ut=w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <HE1P194MB024984433BE07DF46B902074AAFA0@HE1P194MB0249.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAFrGgTTJhEPoRcCmWpCDo-yrFaC27Cjaob2pgVU2kn+W4rcHYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <599BD4B2-7C64-47A2-B3B3-8643C38D1CB3@comcast.net>
 <CAFrGgTR4zbe0c=1J4VaB7im=Fe_qcN06bCX7Rp8mDiB6M7ut=w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <829D6468-CD5D-40F8-B385-70FE8CFAF47D@comcast.net>



> On Feb 1, 2018, at 1:01 PM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 10:56 AM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
> > On Feb 1, 2018, at 12:51 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> > console terminal [...] VT52. (It was not good
> > practice to use a CRT as the system console, IMO.)
> 
> As for CRTs, it all depends on the design assumptions.  Lots of operating system console interfaces are designed on the assumption you have hardcopy consoles, and if so a CRT is a bad idea.  But you can certainly make CRT consoles and have it work -- consider the CDC 6000 series.
> 
> Just a wild-ass guess, but I suspect that a typical CDC 6600 system would have had a printer that logged console interaction?  I'm only suggesting that a CRT console with no logging was a bad idea.

True.  The CDC OS would log anything interesting to a "dayfile", essentially a running log of system events including operator actions.  Those go to disk.  Dayfile messages related to a particular job would also be printed with that job output.

> Of course, in principle the logging could be to disk or tape, but I don't think most "machine-room" people would have trusted that nearly as much for a console log. One wants a log of what happened on the console even when the system was not working well.

I guess they trusted the disk enough.  Normal practice would be to save the dayfile to a regular disk file periodically (perhaps as part of daily maintenance), at which point you could print it, or archive it to tape, or whatever else comes to mind.

There was also the "accounting log", a second dayfile with accounting related messages coded in a fashion that made it straightforward to extract the data for billing.  And an "error log" with messages related to hardware problems (I/O errors with the hardware error detail data).

	paul


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Feb  1 12:56:14 2018
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 10:56:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SuperTerm Maintenance Manual
In-Reply-To: <829D6468-CD5D-40F8-B385-70FE8CFAF47D@comcast.net>
References: <HE1P194MB024984433BE07DF46B902074AAFA0@HE1P194MB0249.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAFrGgTTJhEPoRcCmWpCDo-yrFaC27Cjaob2pgVU2kn+W4rcHYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <599BD4B2-7C64-47A2-B3B3-8643C38D1CB3@comcast.net>
 <CAFrGgTR4zbe0c=1J4VaB7im=Fe_qcN06bCX7Rp8mDiB6M7ut=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <829D6468-CD5D-40F8-B385-70FE8CFAF47D@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011048330.17729@shell.lmi.net>

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
> I guess they trusted the disk enough.  Normal practice would be to save 
> the dayfile to a regular disk file periodically (perhaps as part of 
> daily maintenance), at which point you could print it, or archive it to 
> tape, or whatever else comes to mind.

Was there typically any other way to access the disk file, such as if the 
system were down?
It could be useful in troubleshooting, such as if the system were down.
. . .

At least they would not have had "Help" to suggest, "If the system will 
not IPL/Boot, then run Troubleshooting Wizard"



From paulkoning at comcast.net  Thu Feb  1 13:11:03 2018
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 14:11:03 -0500
Subject: SuperTerm Maintenance Manual
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011048330.17729@shell.lmi.net>
References: <HE1P194MB024984433BE07DF46B902074AAFA0@HE1P194MB0249.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAFrGgTTJhEPoRcCmWpCDo-yrFaC27Cjaob2pgVU2kn+W4rcHYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <599BD4B2-7C64-47A2-B3B3-8643C38D1CB3@comcast.net>
 <CAFrGgTR4zbe0c=1J4VaB7im=Fe_qcN06bCX7Rp8mDiB6M7ut=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <829D6468-CD5D-40F8-B385-70FE8CFAF47D@comcast.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011048330.17729@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <4F9D263D-EF97-4FB7-AE3C-2ABAB90F90DB@comcast.net>



> On Feb 1, 2018, at 1:56 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 1 Feb 2018, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
>> I guess they trusted the disk enough.  Normal practice would be to save the dayfile to a regular disk file periodically (perhaps as part of daily maintenance), at which point you could print it, or archive it to tape, or whatever else comes to mind.
> 
> Was there typically any other way to access the disk file, such as if the system were down?
> It could be useful in troubleshooting, such as if the system were down.

Not that I know of.  The file system structure was quite trivial so it would be easy to write a standalone inspect tool but I don't remember any such thing.

> At least they would not have had "Help" to suggest, "If the system will not IPL/Boot, then run Troubleshooting Wizard"

That at least isn't an issue, since deadstart (CDC for "IPL") was traditionally done from magnetic tape, and could also load from other media if needed.

	paul


From silent700 at gmail.com  Thu Feb  1 13:47:12 2018
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 13:47:12 -0600
Subject: SuperTerm Maintenance Manual
In-Reply-To: <HE1P194MB02490560839F3284F91D4EB8AAFA0@HE1P194MB0249.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <HE1P194MB024984433BE07DF46B902074AAFA0@HE1P194MB0249.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <CAFrGgTTJhEPoRcCmWpCDo-yrFaC27Cjaob2pgVU2kn+W4rcHYA@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1P194MB02490560839F3284F91D4EB8AAFA0@HE1P194MB0249.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SFBpOeH8Rm2+-En26W7RsjF-+7cHiQX-y3htVrOHi2Tmg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 12:01 PM, Mike Norris via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> Do you know were or how is the best place to send the scan (sorry this is my first post)?

First post and already bottom-posting - off to a fine start!

Please do scan the manual if you can't find an example of it online.
Email me directly if you need hosting for it
(http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs).

-j

From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net  Thu Feb  1 11:55:41 2018
From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 12:55:41 -0500
Subject: VMS 8.4 Alpha Hobbyist disk images
Message-ID: <92b4de6a-b537-4bfb-a1fd-1ebe8133f11a@comcast.net>

I'm getting an Alphaserver 1000a and wanted to install VMS 8.4 - 
hobbyist license from CD.

So, I went to the folder on my PC where I have the 8.4 hobbyist 
distribution.? There are 3 ISO files; ALPHA084, ALPHA084LP1 and ALPHA084LP2.

I thought I would burn these to CD and up and away.? However, Windows 7 
balks and says, 'The selected disc image file isn't valid'.

Is it Windows 7 or is there something I'm missing?? Is the CD on the 
Alphaserver 2048 byte block size or 512?

Doug



From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Thu Feb  1 12:10:26 2018
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 18:10:26 -0000
Subject: VMS 8.4 Alpha Hobbyist disk images
In-Reply-To: <92b4de6a-b537-4bfb-a1fd-1ebe8133f11a@comcast.net>
References: <92b4de6a-b537-4bfb-a1fd-1ebe8133f11a@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <094b01d39b87$f01255a0$d03700e0$@gmail.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Douglas
> Taylor via cctech
> Sent: 01 February 2018 17:56
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts <cctech at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: VMS 8.4 Alpha Hobbyist disk images
> 
> I'm getting an Alphaserver 1000a and wanted to install VMS 8.4 - hobbyist
> license from CD.
> 
> So, I went to the folder on my PC where I have the 8.4 hobbyist
> distribution.  There are 3 ISO files; ALPHA084, ALPHA084LP1 and
> ALPHA084LP2.
> 

Whilst they may have a ".iso" extension, they are not, strictly speaking "ISO" files as that implies a file format within the CD. 
I believe that these are VMS (ODS) format disks and burning programs that check for ISO will fail.

> I thought I would burn these to CD and up and away.  However, Windows 7
> balks and says, 'The selected disc image file isn't valid'.
> 
> Is it Windows 7 or is there something I'm missing?  Is the CD on the

Try http://www.imgburn.com/ 
I think that?s what I used...

> Alphaserver 2048 byte block size or 512?
> 

I honestly can't remember, but I don't think it matters.

> Doug
> 

Dave


From david4602 at gmail.com  Thu Feb  1 12:23:14 2018
From: david4602 at gmail.com (David Schmidt)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 13:23:14 -0500
Subject: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <07e712c2-bad3-9192-05c4-3d34792da379@gmail.com>

On 2/1/2018 1:00 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote:> ibm had 8in floppy drives in 
their black from the times of white?
This was dressed to go with the AS/400 line.  Mine is dated 1994.

- David

From cctalk at ibm51xx.net  Thu Feb  1 13:43:43 2018
From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 11:43:43 -0800
Subject: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
In-Reply-To: <07e712c2-bad3-9192-05c4-3d34792da379@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <07e712c2-bad3-9192-05c4-3d34792da379@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003a01d39b94$f8dacbb0$ea906310$@net>

> This was dressed to go with the AS/400 line.  Mine is dated 1994.

Anyone know how easy it is to adapt one of these to work with an IBM PC compatible class machine? I have one sitting around here somewhere and if I recall correctly the drive is a bog std. YE-DATA DS 8" drive so it should be just a matter of making sure the cabling is ok.


From abs at absd.org  Thu Feb  1 14:43:59 2018
From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 20:43:59 +0000
Subject: X11 expertise on ancient HW sought... (4-plane visual (overlay)
 via X-server on MS-WIndows)
In-Reply-To: <CABQOOb80vfam37DqtW5woNBpOdMRetfkyVLQW9DGb84Tkm-FBA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABQOOb8TXYGm_ij8vYRc83UMdPY33X28OoeJ_zmMKKofso5GXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGN_6pbz0hELv-wh1gdMwmz7Y1S6v=oVCwpdYACxSyj9Oq7eOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABQOOb80vfam37DqtW5woNBpOdMRetfkyVLQW9DGb84Tkm-FBA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGN_6pbJaDCcuOhR4Puv8NAWGFbqjiY5u+ONo931p=ZE7+hArw@mail.gmail.com>

On 31 January 2018 at 08:21, Dimitris Theodoropoulos
<dimitris.theo.gr at gmail.com> wrote:
> I believe that my case is identical to the original message of the list and
> 24-bit is required.
> The problematic visual (the one which is not provided by the external
> X-server) is the following (I cite an extract from xdpyinfo on the original
> system):
>
>   visual:
>     visual id:    0x36
>     class:    PseudoColor
>     depth:    4 planes
>     available colormap entries:    16
>     red, green, blue masks:    0x0, 0x0, 0x0
>     significant bits in color specification:    4 bits
>
> At another part of xdpyinfo, I also get the following info:
>
> screen #0:
>   dimensions:    1280x1024 pixels (342x274 millimeters)
>   resolution:    95x95 dots per inch
>   depths (4):    8, 12, 24, 4
>
> Please forgive my technical ineptitude, in case I did not answer your
> question, but I am not experienced in this domain.

OK, so it looks like it might be looking for a PseudoColor display,
which I'm not sure is supported by current X11 (*), check if your
MacOS server is supporting PseudoColor - I think Apple dropped it
around a decade or so ago.

You *might* be able to run Xephyr to present a sub XServer which can
run 8 bit PseudoColor (its freely available under (*nix), not sure
about Windows.

(*) Current X11 on x86 looks to have dropped PseudoColor, though there
may be some odd VESA or other target drivers. Current X11 on non x86
hardware still supports 8bit, 4bit and other crazy historical
bitdepths, which is awesome in its own right, but probably not
directly useful in this context.

So if it is PseudoColor and your target display is Windows, some
increasingly crazy options:

Native Windows X servers
- Look for a Windows Xephyr port and run under MobaXterm or similar
- Find a really ancient (read, probably crashes a lot and may not work
on recent Windows) Windows X server which support PseudoColor
- Fire up a Linux VM and run Xephyr in there with the display set to MobaXterm

Run your actual other OS image on a really fast PC in an emulator
which simulates the actual display hardware it needs

Using some other OS in a VM full screen as an X server
- Check to see if there is some way to get the Linux VM to use a VESA
or some other driver which comes in 8 bit
- Fire up an ancient Linux (or similar) with X11 PseudoColor support in a VM
- Fire up a modern (or even older) *nix for hardware which is native 8
or 4 bpp in qemu (I said increasingly crazy)

From phb.hfx at gmail.com  Thu Feb  1 15:08:51 2018
From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 17:08:51 -0400
Subject: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
In-Reply-To: <003a01d39b94$f8dacbb0$ea906310$@net>
References: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <07e712c2-bad3-9192-05c4-3d34792da379@gmail.com>
 <003a01d39b94$f8dacbb0$ea906310$@net>
Message-ID: <8f05edea-3b7d-aaef-54b6-c96fdd3348a0@gmail.com>



On 2018-02-01 3:43 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote:
>> This was dressed to go with the AS/400 line.  Mine is dated 1994.
> Anyone know how easy it is to adapt one of these to work with an IBM PC compatible class machine? I have one sitting around here somewhere and if I recall correctly the drive is a bog std. YE-DATA DS 8" drive so it should be just a matter of making sure the cabling is ok.
>
The drives that where used on the AS/400 are all "industry standard" 
drives so it should be easy to adapt one to a PC.

Paul.

From derschjo at gmail.com  Thu Feb  1 15:17:29 2018
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 13:17:29 -0800
Subject: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
In-Reply-To: <8f05edea-3b7d-aaef-54b6-c96fdd3348a0@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <07e712c2-bad3-9192-05c4-3d34792da379@gmail.com>
 <003a01d39b94$f8dacbb0$ea906310$@net>
 <8f05edea-3b7d-aaef-54b6-c96fdd3348a0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADBZjLax+eVnNTTo1eawaDdODWqm2PkOjrz463D-6yb+55mG6Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 1:08 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
>
> On 2018-02-01 3:43 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote:
>
>> This was dressed to go with the AS/400 line.  Mine is dated 1994.
>>>
>> Anyone know how easy it is to adapt one of these to work with an IBM PC
>> compatible class machine? I have one sitting around here somewhere and if I
>> recall correctly the drive is a bog std. YE-DATA DS 8" drive so it should
>> be just a matter of making sure the cabling is ok.
>>
>> The drives that where used on the AS/400 are all "industry standard"
> drives so it should be easy to adapt one to a PC.
>
> Paul.
>


This is true.  I have the pinouts at home if anyone wants them, I can post
them when I get home from work.  However: I will note that the YE-DATA 8"
drives have heads that are rough on some 8" media, particularly those prone
to shedding.  The heads are also a pain to get to to clean after such
shedding has taken place.  I've stopped using mine for 8" archival for this
reason.  The Shugart 850/851s are much nicer in this regard (Al suggested
them to me awhile back) -- easier on disks, much easier to clean.

- Josh

From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Thu Feb  1 15:44:11 2018
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 14:44:11 -0700
Subject: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
In-Reply-To: <8f05edea-3b7d-aaef-54b6-c96fdd3348a0@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <07e712c2-bad3-9192-05c4-3d34792da379@gmail.com>
 <003a01d39b94$f8dacbb0$ea906310$@net>
 <8f05edea-3b7d-aaef-54b6-c96fdd3348a0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46b208aa-0aee-5bff-f223-304f20a377bd@tnetconsulting.net>

On 02/01/2018 02:08 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote:
> The drives that where used on the AS/400 are all "industry standard" 
> drives so it should be easy to adapt one to a PC.

The drives may be standard, but I am curious how standard the format of 
what's on the disk is.  How likely is it that a PC OS from the last ~30 
years will understand how to read what's on the disk?

Or, I'm guessing it's likely that archival programs don't need to 
understand how to read the disk format for raw disk imaging.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From a.carlini at ntlworld.com  Thu Feb  1 15:51:18 2018
From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 21:51:18 +0000
Subject: VMS 8.4 Alpha Hobbyist disk images
In-Reply-To: <094b01d39b87$f01255a0$d03700e0$@gmail.com>
References: <92b4de6a-b537-4bfb-a1fd-1ebe8133f11a@comcast.net>
 <094b01d39b87$f01255a0$d03700e0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c9a7de2c-196f-a163-d9d0-3bbaeb16b5c6@ntlworld.com>

On 01/02/18 18:10, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote:
 >> Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote:
 >
 >> I thought I would burn these to CD and up and away. However, Windows 7
 >> balks and says, 'The selected disc image file isn't valid'.
 >>
 >> Is it Windows 7 or is there something I'm missing?  Is the CD on the
 >
 > Try http://www.imgburn.com/
 > I think that?s what I used...
 >
 >> Alphaserver 2048 byte block size or 512?
 >>
 >
 > I honestly can't remember, but I don't think it matters.

I think a CD will always use 2048 byte sectors (although there are some 
oddball
modes so maybe there are other sizes near that 2048).

VAXes (and at least some Sun systems too IIRC) expected the attached CD 
drive to deliver
512 byte sectors, to match disks of the era. The CD discs themselves 
were exactly the same
as any other CD.

Antonio


-- 
Antonio Carlini
arcarlini at iee.org

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Feb  1 16:09:56 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 14:09:56 -0800
Subject: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
In-Reply-To: <46b208aa-0aee-5bff-f223-304f20a377bd@tnetconsulting.net>
References: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <07e712c2-bad3-9192-05c4-3d34792da379@gmail.com>
 <003a01d39b94$f8dacbb0$ea906310$@net>
 <8f05edea-3b7d-aaef-54b6-c96fdd3348a0@gmail.com>
 <46b208aa-0aee-5bff-f223-304f20a377bd@tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <43ab4442-4e78-815b-ee22-f2d48083457b@sydex.com>

On 02/01/2018 01:44 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> On 02/01/2018 02:08 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote:
>> The drives that where used on the AS/400 are all "industry standard"
>> drives so it should be easy to adapt one to a PC.
> 
> The drives may be standard, but I am curious how standard the format of
> what's on the disk is.? How likely is it that a PC OS from the last ~30
> years will understand how to read what's on the disk?
> 
> Or, I'm guessing it's likely that archival programs don't need to
> understand how to read the disk format for raw disk imaging.

It's pretty likely that the disks follow one of the standard IBM formats
described here:

http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/ibm/floppy/GA21-9182-5_Diskette_General_Information_Manual_Jul80.pdf

Pretty much standard FM/MFM; easy enough if you still have a PC with a
legacy floppy interface.

After that, it's matter of interpreting what you get.  Not a big deal,
really.

--Chuck


From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com  Thu Feb  1 16:23:49 2018
From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 17:23:49 -0500
Subject: Modems & Xerox
Message-ID: <CAMvyYF-+qC5KuUCv6kC=_+Q1UE3JGVB=DCaf4t1x_uAvbTT0sw@mail.gmail.com>

I started accessing BBSs back in the early 70s with a 300 baud modem.
>From there it went to 1200; 2400; 9600; 28.8K and 56Kilobaud. All on
dialup! Now at 5 Mbits/sec. here in Ontario. An American friend has
250Mb/s download. Yikes!  The classic computer era taught us patience
didn?t it? BTW, one had to have a private phone line not a party line
for a modem to work. Making our hobby more expensive!

On the business-side of computing: Xerox sold 50.1% of its business to
Fujifilm, Japan. Xerox Parc was a seminal institution in early classic
computing era: Mouse and graphics input for instance.

Happy computing!

Murray  :)

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Feb  1 16:45:28 2018
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 14:45:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
In-Reply-To: <46b208aa-0aee-5bff-f223-304f20a377bd@tnetconsulting.net>
References: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <07e712c2-bad3-9192-05c4-3d34792da379@gmail.com>
 <003a01d39b94$f8dacbb0$ea906310$@net>
 <8f05edea-3b7d-aaef-54b6-c96fdd3348a0@gmail.com>
 <46b208aa-0aee-5bff-f223-304f20a377bd@tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011434540.17729@shell.lmi.net>

>> The drives that where used on the AS/400 are all "industry standard" 
>> drives so it should be easy to adapt one to a PC.
On Thu, 1 Feb 2018, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> The drives may be standard, but I am curious how standard the format of 
> what's on the disk is.  How likely is it that a PC OS from the last ~30 
> years will understand how to read what's on the disk?
>
> Or, I'm guessing it's likely that archival programs don't need to 
> understand how to read the disk format for raw disk imaging.

DOS/Windoze will have absolutely no idea how to understand what is on the 
disk.

It is a different file system structure, and DOS/Windoze didn't deal with 
that.
THAT is why there existed programs such as 22Disk, XenoCopy, Uniform, etc. 
to interpret the file system of disks from CP/M, P-System, TRS-DOS, etc.
that had different file system structures, but similar recording methods.

There were somewhere around 2500 mutually incompatible floppy formats.
(XenoCopy included capability for 400 of them)

If the physical track structure is "standard" MFM, then it is possible to 
read sectors from them.  That means that Imagedisk, Teledisk, or a disk 
file transfer program that has implemented THAT format can read them.

If the physical track structure is different, even if using the same disk 
drive, such as hard-sector, MFM without similar sector headers, MMFM (FM 
sector headers, MFM data), or GCR (Apple, Commodore, Sirius/Victor, etc.), 
then you can not read sectors using a PC FDC chip.  Nevertheless, flux 
transition, such as Kryoflux, Cat Weasel, Option Board, can still capture 
the raw flux transitions, and maybe make sense out of them.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com




From cctalk at ibm51xx.net  Thu Feb  1 16:52:01 2018
From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 14:52:01 -0800
Subject: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
In-Reply-To: <CADBZjLax+eVnNTTo1eawaDdODWqm2PkOjrz463D-6yb+55mG6Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <07e712c2-bad3-9192-05c4-3d34792da379@gmail.com>
 <003a01d39b94$f8dacbb0$ea906310$@net>
 <8f05edea-3b7d-aaef-54b6-c96fdd3348a0@gmail.com>
 <CADBZjLax+eVnNTTo1eawaDdODWqm2PkOjrz463D-6yb+55mG6Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003b01d39baf$46bbc810$d4335830$@net>

> This is true.  I have the pinouts at home if anyone wants them, I can
> post them when I get home from work.  

Josh,

That would be great. Thanks.

-Ali



From terry at webweavers.co.nz  Thu Feb  1 16:57:03 2018
From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 11:57:03 +1300
Subject: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011434540.17729@shell.lmi.net>
References: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <07e712c2-bad3-9192-05c4-3d34792da379@gmail.com>
 <003a01d39b94$f8dacbb0$ea906310$@net>
 <8f05edea-3b7d-aaef-54b6-c96fdd3348a0@gmail.com>
 <46b208aa-0aee-5bff-f223-304f20a377bd@tnetconsulting.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011434540.17729@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CACaZngm-Y65pG3JtL_vhOgPXq2RzVW1c2cXCOY7EMwvHJ5t3NQ@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
> DOS/Windoze will have absolutely no idea how to understand what is on the
> disk.
>
> Makes me thinks of the time a few months ago when a lab on our campus
wanted me to read some 8 inch disks in the archives for them.  The IT
manager said "I think they are IBM-compatible" (and by that he meant IBM-PC
compatible i.e MS-DOS).   I thought "yea, right."

They weren't of course.

Terry (Tez)

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Feb  1 17:13:18 2018
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 15:13:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
In-Reply-To: <003a01d39b94$f8dacbb0$ea906310$@net>
References: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <07e712c2-bad3-9192-05c4-3d34792da379@gmail.com>
 <003a01d39b94$f8dacbb0$ea906310$@net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011457470.17729@shell.lmi.net>

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018, Ali via cctalk wrote:
> Anyone know how easy it is to adapt one of these to work with an IBM PC 
> compatible class machine? I have one sitting around here somewhere and 
> if I recall correctly the drive is a bog std. YE-DATA DS 8" drive so it 
> should be just a matter of making sure the cabling is ok.

If it is a 50 pin edge connector, then it is LIKELY that it follows the 
Shugart 800/850 pinout.  BUT, it is still a good idea to find and check 
the pinout of the specific model drive, since some added additional 
signals and/or repurposed pins for other purposes.
And, check the drive specific pinout for power connections!
5.25" drives had a standardized power connection.
8" drives do NOT have standardized power connections.  Not all used the 
same power nor connector nor pinout as Shugart.  In addition to 
5VDC, you may need 24V or 12V, and maybe even -5VDC, or even AC.


If it IS SA800/850, then FPADAP,
http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html
is an easy way to handle the cabling.
The website say that they have 5 in stock,
so order immediately if you need it!

If you are reading ONLY, and not writing to the drive, then you do not 
need the TG43 signal and circuitry, in which case it is trivial to make 
your own cable.  The majority of the 5.25" (SA400) signals are even in the 
same order, so you can start with a 34 pin flat cable, peel out a small 
handful of the wires, and crimp them in a 50 pin IDC edge connector.
YMMV.


From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  1 17:30:19 2018
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 23:30:19 +0000
Subject: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011457470.17729@shell.lmi.net>
References: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <07e712c2-bad3-9192-05c4-3d34792da379@gmail.com>
 <003a01d39b94$f8dacbb0$ea906310$@net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011457470.17729@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <BN1PR0101MB07546759D2736BF642799457EDFA0@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>



On 02/01/2018 06:13 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> On Thu, 1 Feb 2018, Ali via cctalk wrote:
>> Anyone know how easy it is to adapt one of these to work with an IBM 
>> PC compatible class machine? I have one sitting around here somewhere 
>> and if I recall correctly the drive is a bog std. YE-DATA DS 8" drive 
>> so it should be just a matter of making sure the cabling is ok.
>
> If it is a 50 pin edge connector, then it is LIKELY that it follows 
> the Shugart 800/850 pinout.? BUT, it is still a good idea to find and 
> check the pinout of the specific model drive, since some added 
> additional signals and/or repurposed pins for other purposes.
> And, check the drive specific pinout for power connections!
> 5.25" drives had a standardized power connection.
> 8" drives do NOT have standardized power connections.? Not all used 
> the same power nor connector nor pinout as Shugart.? In addition to 
> 5VDC, you may need 24V or 12V, and maybe even -5VDC, or even AC.
>
>
> If it IS SA800/850, then FPADAP,
> http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html
> is an easy way to handle the cabling.
> The website say that they have 5 in stock,
> so order immediately if you need it!
>
> If you are reading ONLY, and not writing to the drive, then you do not 
> need the TG43 signal and circuitry, in which case it is trivial to 
> make your own cable.? The majority of the 5.25" (SA400) signals are 
> even in the same order, so you can start with a 34 pin flat cable, 
> peel out a small handful of the wires, and crimp them in a 50 pin IDC 
> edge connector.
> YMMV.
>

It doesn't guarantee that you will be able to read most (because of 
shortcomings
in the PC floppy controller) but dbit.com offers an adapter called an 
FDADAP that
lets you connect a 50 pin 8" disk to the PC controller.? I have a couple 
and they
work great.

bill


From terry at webweavers.co.nz  Thu Feb  1 17:40:44 2018
From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 12:40:44 +1300
Subject: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
In-Reply-To: <BN1PR0101MB07546759D2736BF642799457EDFA0@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <07e712c2-bad3-9192-05c4-3d34792da379@gmail.com>
 <003a01d39b94$f8dacbb0$ea906310$@net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011457470.17729@shell.lmi.net>
 <BN1PR0101MB07546759D2736BF642799457EDFA0@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <CACaZng=0YGhHuEVTD8pmKhDo2uVOhz25amZ2-CDsYPGofbemiA@mail.gmail.com>

>but dbit.com offers an adapter called an
>FDADAP that
>lets you connect a 50 pin 8" disk to the PC controller.  I have a couple
>and they work great.

I second that.  I've got one and works just as it should.

Terry (Tez)

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Feb  1 18:57:55 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 16:57:55 -0800
Subject: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
In-Reply-To: <CACaZng=0YGhHuEVTD8pmKhDo2uVOhz25amZ2-CDsYPGofbemiA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <07e712c2-bad3-9192-05c4-3d34792da379@gmail.com>
 <003a01d39b94$f8dacbb0$ea906310$@net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011457470.17729@shell.lmi.net>
 <BN1PR0101MB07546759D2736BF642799457EDFA0@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CACaZng=0YGhHuEVTD8pmKhDo2uVOhz25amZ2-CDsYPGofbemiA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9ee5b39a-8401-594b-0ab7-833944ad3886@sydex.com>

On 02/01/2018 03:40 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:
>> but dbit.com offers an adapter called an
>> FDADAP that
>> lets you connect a 50 pin 8" disk to the PC controller.  I have a couple
>> and they work great.
> 
> I second that.  I've got one and works just as it should.
> 
> Terry (Tez)

Exactly what does a FDADP do for *reading*?  Nothing that I can figure,
other than re-arrange the 50 line SA-800 interface to a 34-line SA-400 type.

For those drives that require RWC/TG40 signals, I agree that *writing*
may benefit from it.

--Chuck


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Feb  1 19:34:46 2018
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 17:34:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
In-Reply-To: <CACaZngm-Y65pG3JtL_vhOgPXq2RzVW1c2cXCOY7EMwvHJ5t3NQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <07e712c2-bad3-9192-05c4-3d34792da379@gmail.com>
 <003a01d39b94$f8dacbb0$ea906310$@net>
 <8f05edea-3b7d-aaef-54b6-c96fdd3348a0@gmail.com>
 <46b208aa-0aee-5bff-f223-304f20a377bd@tnetconsulting.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011434540.17729@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZngm-Y65pG3JtL_vhOgPXq2RzVW1c2cXCOY7EMwvHJ5t3NQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011730280.17729@shell.lmi.net>

>> DOS/Windoze will have absolutely no idea how to understand what is on the
>> disk.

On Fri, 2 Feb 2018, Terry Stewart wrote:
>> Makes me thinks of the time a few months ago when a lab on our campus
> wanted me to read some 8 inch disks in the archives for them.  The IT
> manager said "I think they are IBM-compatible" (and by that he meant IBM-PC
> compatible i.e MS-DOS).   I thought "yea, right."
> They weren't of course.

But, you have to tread very carefully.  Because SOMETIMES [now rarely],
they could mean the PRE-5150 definition where "IBM compatible" meant 
3740/SSSD 8" with 128 byte sectors.
5150 really was a danger to itself and/or others; it totally destroyed the 
meaning ot "IBM compatible" disks.

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Feb  1 19:39:54 2018
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 17:39:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
In-Reply-To: <9ee5b39a-8401-594b-0ab7-833944ad3886@sydex.com>
References: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <07e712c2-bad3-9192-05c4-3d34792da379@gmail.com>
 <003a01d39b94$f8dacbb0$ea906310$@net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011457470.17729@shell.lmi.net>
 <BN1PR0101MB07546759D2736BF642799457EDFA0@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CACaZng=0YGhHuEVTD8pmKhDo2uVOhz25amZ2-CDsYPGofbemiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <9ee5b39a-8401-594b-0ab7-833944ad3886@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011735490.17729@shell.lmi.net>

>>> but dbit.com offers an adapter called an FDADAP that lets you connect 
>>> a 50 pin 8" disk to the PC controller.  I have a couple and they work 
>>> great.

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> Exactly what does a FDADP do for *reading*?  Nothing that I can figure,
> other than re-arrange the 50 line SA-800 interface to a 34-line SA-400 type.

for reading, it doesn't do anything other than cabling.  It means using a 
flat 34 cable and a flat 50 cable, without the trivial effort of making 
your own 34 to 50 cable.

> For those drives that require RWC/TG40 signals, I agree that *writing*
> may benefit from it.

THAT is the part that my homemade cables don't do.

But, it was extremely rare that I needed to WRITE 8".
When I did have to, I tried to write to fresh empty disks, so that I could 
stay mostly on lower numbered tracks.



From terry at webweavers.co.nz  Thu Feb  1 19:41:46 2018
From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 14:41:46 +1300
Subject: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011730280.17729@shell.lmi.net>
References: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <07e712c2-bad3-9192-05c4-3d34792da379@gmail.com>
 <003a01d39b94$f8dacbb0$ea906310$@net>
 <8f05edea-3b7d-aaef-54b6-c96fdd3348a0@gmail.com>
 <46b208aa-0aee-5bff-f223-304f20a377bd@tnetconsulting.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011434540.17729@shell.lmi.net>
 <CACaZngm-Y65pG3JtL_vhOgPXq2RzVW1c2cXCOY7EMwvHJ5t3NQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011730280.17729@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CACaZngm-MX9LVqx_bjaWpUFikjmA0WvtWuc2reFcdAeP9tg6_A@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
> But, you have to tread very carefully.  Because SOMETIMES [now rarely],
> they could mean the PRE-5150 definition where "IBM compatible" meant
> 3740/SSSD 8" with 128 byte sectors.
> 5150 really was a danger to itself and/or others; it totally destroyed the
> meaning ot "IBM compatible" disks.
>

Indeed!   But in this case he did mean MS-DOS compatible.  I asked him if
by IBM compatible he meant MS-DOS compatible and indeed that's what he
meant.

Terry (Tez)

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Feb  1 19:47:00 2018
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 17:47:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
In-Reply-To: <BN1PR0101MB07546759D2736BF642799457EDFA0@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <07e712c2-bad3-9192-05c4-3d34792da379@gmail.com>
 <003a01d39b94$f8dacbb0$ea906310$@net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011457470.17729@shell.lmi.net>
 <BN1PR0101MB07546759D2736BF642799457EDFA0@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011742090.17729@shell.lmi.net>

>> If it IS SA800/850, then FPADAP,
>> http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html
>> is an easy way to handle the cabling.
>> The website say that they have 5 in stock,
>> so order immediately if you need it!

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> It doesn't guarantee that you will be able to read most (because of
> shortcomings
> in the PC floppy controller) but dbit.com offers an adapter called an
> FDADAP that
> lets you connect a 50 pin 8" disk to the PC controller.? I have a couple
> and they
> work great.

I agree.
I always made my own cables, but I did mention [ABOVE] that FDADAP
is the easy way to handle the cabling.

First cable that I made, I used a solderless bread-board, and looking at 
both pinouts, started placing wires.
Once I saw what I was ending up with, subsequent cables were a flat 34 pin 
cable, that I peeled out a few wires, and very carefully held them in 
place to crimp on a 50 pin connector.


From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Feb  1 20:04:21 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 18:04:21 -0800
Subject: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011742090.17729@shell.lmi.net>
References: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <07e712c2-bad3-9192-05c4-3d34792da379@gmail.com>
 <003a01d39b94$f8dacbb0$ea906310$@net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011457470.17729@shell.lmi.net>
 <BN1PR0101MB07546759D2736BF642799457EDFA0@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011742090.17729@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <0006cbec-0b0b-5f2a-7260-ecc71e96cbe6@sydex.com>

I'll also add the Jonathan (Glitch) has taken over the "what
motherboards can do what with floppies" list.

Interestingly, a lot of later legacy-floppy equipped motherboards do
very well with regards to supporting FM reading/writing--yes, even P4,
AM3+ and other boards. (N.B., I said "later" not "recent" or "bleeding
edge").

Much to my surprise, a P3 Intel i820 (that's the one with RDRAM) FIC
board not only handles FM, but 128-byte sector MFM.

P1 and 486 boards with integrated floppy controllers tend to be very
spotty on anything but MFM support.

Check glitch's table--there's an "fdtest" utility that will tell you
what your FDC can do--or not.

--Chuck

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  1 20:09:36 2018
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 02:09:36 +0000
Subject: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
In-Reply-To: <9ee5b39a-8401-594b-0ab7-833944ad3886@sydex.com>
References: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <07e712c2-bad3-9192-05c4-3d34792da379@gmail.com>
 <003a01d39b94$f8dacbb0$ea906310$@net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011457470.17729@shell.lmi.net>
 <BN1PR0101MB07546759D2736BF642799457EDFA0@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CACaZng=0YGhHuEVTD8pmKhDo2uVOhz25amZ2-CDsYPGofbemiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <9ee5b39a-8401-594b-0ab7-833944ad3886@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <BN1PR0101MB075485A84B8FA48AAA5C22D7EDF90@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>



On 02/01/2018 07:57 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> On 02/01/2018 03:40 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:
>>> but dbit.com offers an adapter called an
>>> FDADAP that
>>> lets you connect a 50 pin 8" disk to the PC controller.  I have a couple
>>> and they work great.
>> I second that.  I've got one and works just as it should.
>>
>> Terry (Tez)
> Exactly what does a FDADP do for *reading*?  Nothing that I can figure,
> other than re-arrange the 50 line SA-800 interface to a 34-line SA-400 type.
>
> For those drives that require RWC/TG40 signals, I agree that *writing*
> may benefit from it.
>

Well, it's a lot easier than hamburgering cable together.

bill


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Feb  1 20:27:33 2018
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 18:27:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
In-Reply-To: <BN1PR0101MB075485A84B8FA48AAA5C22D7EDF90@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <07e712c2-bad3-9192-05c4-3d34792da379@gmail.com>
 <003a01d39b94$f8dacbb0$ea906310$@net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011457470.17729@shell.lmi.net>
 <BN1PR0101MB07546759D2736BF642799457EDFA0@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CACaZng=0YGhHuEVTD8pmKhDo2uVOhz25amZ2-CDsYPGofbemiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <9ee5b39a-8401-594b-0ab7-833944ad3886@sydex.com>
 <BN1PR0101MB075485A84B8FA48AAA5C22D7EDF90@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011812190.17729@shell.lmi.net>

> Exactly what does a FDADP do for *reading*?  Nothing that I can figure, 
> other than re-arrange the 50 line SA-800 interface to a 34-line SA-400 
> type.

"Current" versions ("since 2009") have two small 7-segment LEDs that 
display current track number.
THAT might be handy sometime, although most such times are amenable to 
software methods.


Analagous example:  When installing the beta version of Windows 3.10, it 
would hit an unrecoverable error at a certain point.  But, SMARTDRV 
wouldn't permit anything other then futile further retries (since 
SMARTDRV had already reported SUCCESS), or abort the installation, at 
which time, it destroyed all indication of where on the 
disk the problem was.  Neither SSTOR nor Spinrite could find the 
consistent bad spot.  If I had known cylinder and head, I could have 
trivially mapped out the bad spot.  I should have written a TSR to be able 
to interrupt and find out!   (Without SMARTDRV, I could have done 
an "Ignore" and renamed the specific file that failed into "BADSECS", and 
written another copy of that file to another location.)  I told MS Win31 
beta support that write-cacheing of SMARTDRV (which at that point could 
not be turned off!) was capable of creating disasters that would 
ultimately force recalls (DOS 6.00 to 6.20 replacement); they said that it 
was a HARDWARE problem, not THEIR problem, and that it was not the 
responsibility of the OS to find, work around, nor recover gracefully from 
hardware problems.

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Feb  1 20:33:49 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 18:33:49 -0800
Subject: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
In-Reply-To: <BN1PR0101MB075485A84B8FA48AAA5C22D7EDF90@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <07e712c2-bad3-9192-05c4-3d34792da379@gmail.com>
 <003a01d39b94$f8dacbb0$ea906310$@net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011457470.17729@shell.lmi.net>
 <BN1PR0101MB07546759D2736BF642799457EDFA0@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CACaZng=0YGhHuEVTD8pmKhDo2uVOhz25amZ2-CDsYPGofbemiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <9ee5b39a-8401-594b-0ab7-833944ad3886@sydex.com>
 <BN1PR0101MB075485A84B8FA48AAA5C22D7EDF90@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <34ee4215-8a98-46bd-89c5-460356987531@sydex.com>

On 02/01/2018 06:09 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

> Well, it's a lot easier than hamburgering cable together.

I guess--using crimp type DC37M connectors, it's not a big deal to go
from 50 conductor ribbon to DC 37.  I've even got a couple adapter PCBs
that go from 50 pin to 34 pin headers.

--Chuck


From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us  Thu Feb  1 20:39:07 2018
From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 21:39:07 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Modems & Xerox
In-Reply-To: <CAMvyYF-+qC5KuUCv6kC=_+Q1UE3JGVB=DCaf4t1x_uAvbTT0sw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMvyYF-+qC5KuUCv6kC=_+Q1UE3JGVB=DCaf4t1x_uAvbTT0sw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1802012137440.50439@cpumagic.137clearview.org>

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote:

> I started accessing BBSs back in the early 70s with a 300 baud modem.
>> From there it went to 1200; 2400; 9600; 28.8K and 56Kilobaud. All on
> dialup! Now at 5 Mbits/sec. here in Ontario. An American friend has
> 250Mb/s download. Yikes!  The classic computer era taught us patience
> didn?t it? BTW, one had to have a private phone line not a party line
> for a modem to work. Making our hobby more expensive!

    What sort of BBS were you accessing in the early '70s?


Mike Loewen				mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology				http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/

From cctalk at ibm51xx.net  Thu Feb  1 20:47:09 2018
From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 18:47:09 -0800
Subject: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
In-Reply-To: <34ee4215-8a98-46bd-89c5-460356987531@sydex.com>
References: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <07e712c2-bad3-9192-05c4-3d34792da379@gmail.com>
 <003a01d39b94$f8dacbb0$ea906310$@net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011457470.17729@shell.lmi.net>
 <BN1PR0101MB07546759D2736BF642799457EDFA0@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CACaZng=0YGhHuEVTD8pmKhDo2uVOhz25amZ2-CDsYPGofbemiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <9ee5b39a-8401-594b-0ab7-833944ad3886@sydex.com>
 <BN1PR0101MB075485A84B8FA48AAA5C22D7EDF90@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <34ee4215-8a98-46bd-89c5-460356987531@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <005e01d39bd0$1f7cece0$5e76c6a0$@net>

> 
> > Well, it's a lot easier than hamburgering cable together.
> 
> I guess--using crimp type DC37M connectors, it's not a big deal to go
> from 50 conductor ribbon to DC 37.  I've even got a couple adapter PCBs
> that go from 50 pin to 34 pin headers.


Of course if you want to get fancy w/ the FDADP: www.ibm51xx.net ;)

-Ali


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Feb  1 21:17:00 2018
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 19:17:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
In-Reply-To: <34ee4215-8a98-46bd-89c5-460356987531@sydex.com>
References: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <07e712c2-bad3-9192-05c4-3d34792da379@gmail.com>
 <003a01d39b94$f8dacbb0$ea906310$@net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011457470.17729@shell.lmi.net>
 <BN1PR0101MB07546759D2736BF642799457EDFA0@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CACaZng=0YGhHuEVTD8pmKhDo2uVOhz25amZ2-CDsYPGofbemiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <9ee5b39a-8401-594b-0ab7-833944ad3886@sydex.com>
 <BN1PR0101MB075485A84B8FA48AAA5C22D7EDF90@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <34ee4215-8a98-46bd-89c5-460356987531@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011859000.17729@shell.lmi.net>

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> I guess--using crimp type DC37M connectors, it's not a big deal to go
> from 50 conductor ribbon to DC 37.  I've even got a couple adapter PCBs
> that go from 50 pin to 34 pin headers.

Which, other than the TG43 feature, is what FDADAP is.


If you want to get fancy, there used to be readily available DC37 on a 
bracket with short cable 34 pin header adapters, for using external drives 
on machines after 5160 (after 5160, IBM stopped including a DC37 on the 
FDC card).   IBM sold one of those along with its external 720K 3.5".
Then, if you really don't want stuff visible, put the FDADAP (or similar) 
inside the case for the 8" drive.  Now you have an 8" drive that connects 
as if it were a 5.25" external.

I simply used a larger table.  I had an AT, with no lid for its case on 
the table, an 8" drive on the table, a power supply on the table; the 
"other" 4096 on the table, along with a PC power supply for it, a DC37 
A/B/C switch box, a small box with its own power supply with 3", 3.25", 
and 3.5" drives.  That AT also had an Eiconscript board for HP PCL and 
Postscript, cabled to another DC37 A/B/C switch sitting on a Corona Data 
Systems CX printer (which also connected to Cordata and Jlaser boards in 
other PCs.)  There was no need to snake cables out of bracket slots, 
because there never was a lid.

My 2.8M, Floptical, and CD-ROM drives were on other PCs.

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Feb  1 21:34:03 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 19:34:03 -0800
Subject: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011859000.17729@shell.lmi.net>
References: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <07e712c2-bad3-9192-05c4-3d34792da379@gmail.com>
 <003a01d39b94$f8dacbb0$ea906310$@net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011457470.17729@shell.lmi.net>
 <BN1PR0101MB07546759D2736BF642799457EDFA0@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CACaZng=0YGhHuEVTD8pmKhDo2uVOhz25amZ2-CDsYPGofbemiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <9ee5b39a-8401-594b-0ab7-833944ad3886@sydex.com>
 <BN1PR0101MB075485A84B8FA48AAA5C22D7EDF90@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <34ee4215-8a98-46bd-89c5-460356987531@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011859000.17729@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <6c5d4975-fdb5-142b-c1c3-0803da0237d6@sydex.com>

On 02/01/2018 07:17 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> 
> If you want to get fancy, there used to be readily available DC37 on a
> bracket with short cable 34 pin header adapters, for using external
> drives on machines after 5160 (after 5160, IBM stopped including a DC37
> on the FDC card).?? IBM sold one of those along with its external 720K
> 3.5".
> Then, if you really don't want stuff visible, put the FDADAP (or
> similar) inside the case for the 8" drive.? Now you have an 8" drive
> that connects as if it were a 5.25" external.

IN my case, all of my drives are terminated in DC37M connectors and my
controllers have DC37F.    Half-height and 3.5" drives are housed in old
IBM 4569 boxes (we bought 50 of the things back in the day) and the 8"
and FH 5.25" have their own external boxes with PSU.

So, no matter what I want to do, it's a matter of plugging something in
and turning it on.  Need a 100 tpi drive?  Just grab it off the shelf
and plug it in.

That extents to not only PC floppy controllers, but things such as
Catweasels (I fit them with a buffer board ending in a DC37F on a
bracket) and even my WD-based controllers and my MCU setups.

It streamlines the process greatly.

--Chuck




From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Feb  1 21:34:38 2018
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 19:34:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
In-Reply-To: <005e01d39bd0$1f7cece0$5e76c6a0$@net>
References: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <07e712c2-bad3-9192-05c4-3d34792da379@gmail.com>
 <003a01d39b94$f8dacbb0$ea906310$@net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011457470.17729@shell.lmi.net>
 <BN1PR0101MB07546759D2736BF642799457EDFA0@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CACaZng=0YGhHuEVTD8pmKhDo2uVOhz25amZ2-CDsYPGofbemiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <9ee5b39a-8401-594b-0ab7-833944ad3886@sydex.com>
 <BN1PR0101MB075485A84B8FA48AAA5C22D7EDF90@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <34ee4215-8a98-46bd-89c5-460356987531@sydex.com>
 <005e01d39bd0$1f7cece0$5e76c6a0$@net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011918380.17729@shell.lmi.net>

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018, Ali via cctalk wrote:
> Of course if you want to get fancy w/ the FDADP: www.ibm51xx.net ;)

If it's not going to be simply spread out accross the table, then
I would rather use DC37, not HD50 and 50 pin Blue Ribbon ("Centronics")

34 to DC37 in the PC.
DC37 to DC37 from PC to drive case
FDADAP inside the 8" drive case.

ALL drive cabling done with connectors that are normally used for 
floppies; no "SCSI" connectors to confuse the unwary.

(Of course, I had been working in a college, where people routinely 
connected 5150 keyboard to cassette connector, connected MDA and CGA 
monitors to the wrong video boards, monitor and early Microsoft bus mouse 
to each other's boards, PC printer to Mac-Plus DB25 (SCSI), and tried to 
use gender changer adapters to interchange printer and modem connections! 
("But we NEED two printers on that computer, and the other port is the 
wrong gender.")  The lab "technicians" eventually learned.  Some of the 
teachers never learned.)

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Feb  1 21:53:18 2018
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 19:53:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
In-Reply-To: <6c5d4975-fdb5-142b-c1c3-0803da0237d6@sydex.com>
References: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <07e712c2-bad3-9192-05c4-3d34792da379@gmail.com>
 <003a01d39b94$f8dacbb0$ea906310$@net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011457470.17729@shell.lmi.net>
 <BN1PR0101MB07546759D2736BF642799457EDFA0@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CACaZng=0YGhHuEVTD8pmKhDo2uVOhz25amZ2-CDsYPGofbemiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <9ee5b39a-8401-594b-0ab7-833944ad3886@sydex.com>
 <BN1PR0101MB075485A84B8FA48AAA5C22D7EDF90@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <34ee4215-8a98-46bd-89c5-460356987531@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011859000.17729@shell.lmi.net>
 <6c5d4975-fdb5-142b-c1c3-0803da0237d6@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011937150.17729@shell.lmi.net>

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> IN my case, all of my drives are terminated in DC37M connectors and my
> controllers have DC37F.    Half-height and 3.5" drives are housed in old
> IBM 4569 boxes (we bought 50 of the things back in the day) and the 8"
> and FH 5.25" have their own external boxes with PSU.
> So, no matter what I want to do, it's a matter of plugging something in
> and turning it on.  Need a 100 tpi drive?  Just grab it off the shelf
> and plug it in.
> That extents to not only PC floppy controllers, but things such as
> Catweasels (I fit them with a buffer board ending in a DC37F on a
> bracket) and even my WD-based controllers and my MCU setups.
> It streamlines the process greatly.

The RIGHT way to do it!
I never got around to doing it right.


You probably put everything into boxes with power supplies, and NEVER
"just temporarily" connect a drive sitting loose.  Nor even try to "apply 
gentle pressure" on head positioner to try to read a disk written out of 
alignment (surprisingly, it worked with extra, but not unreasonable 
amount of, retries!)  Yeah, I know, the right way would be to misalign a 
drive, and then re-align it.

IFF you ever decide that you need the FDADAP (TG43), then it could go into 
a tiny inline project box with a DC37M input and DC37F output.

IFF you wanted to use switch boxes, as I did, you would need one DC37M to 
DC37M cable (screwed permanently onto the input of the switchbox).  I had 
expected to have noise or connection problems with the switchboxes, but it 
never happened.    Cheap crap was a lot better in those days!


From cctalk at ibm51xx.net  Thu Feb  1 21:55:21 2018
From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 19:55:21 -0800
Subject: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011918380.17729@shell.lmi.net>
References: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <07e712c2-bad3-9192-05c4-3d34792da379@gmail.com>
 <003a01d39b94$f8dacbb0$ea906310$@net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011457470.17729@shell.lmi.net>
 <BN1PR0101MB07546759D2736BF642799457EDFA0@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CACaZng=0YGhHuEVTD8pmKhDo2uVOhz25amZ2-CDsYPGofbemiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <9ee5b39a-8401-594b-0ab7-833944ad3886@sydex.com>
 <BN1PR0101MB075485A84B8FA48AAA5C22D7EDF90@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <34ee4215-8a98-46bd-89c5-460356987531@sydex.com>
 <005e01d39bd0$1f7cece0$5e76c6a0$@net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011918380.17729@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <006301d39bd9$a65a4a60$f30edf20$@net>

> If it's not going to be simply spread out accross the table, then I
> would rather use DC37, not HD50 and 50 pin Blue Ribbon ("Centronics")
> 
> 34 to DC37 in the PC.
> DC37 to DC37 from PC to drive case
> FDADAP inside the 8" drive case.
> 
> ALL drive cabling done with connectors that are normally used for
> floppies; no "SCSI" connectors to confuse the unwary.

So would I Fred, but I have not found 34 to DC37 adapters readily. The SCSI
stuff is out there for easy purchasing - at least for now. Plus many people
have drives in cases already w/ 50 pin connectors on them (I have a couple
and that is what that cable is being used for) so a DC37 to DC37 cable is no
bueno...

I have been toying with making a bunch of brackets for odd connectors (I
haven't seen a bracket that has holes cut for DC37 for example readily
available for purchase). A friend of mine has access to an industrial laser
cutter and has told me he would be happy to cut brackets in quantity for
free....

-Ali


From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Feb  1 23:02:16 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 21:02:16 -0800
Subject: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011937150.17729@shell.lmi.net>
References: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <07e712c2-bad3-9192-05c4-3d34792da379@gmail.com>
 <003a01d39b94$f8dacbb0$ea906310$@net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011457470.17729@shell.lmi.net>
 <BN1PR0101MB07546759D2736BF642799457EDFA0@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CACaZng=0YGhHuEVTD8pmKhDo2uVOhz25amZ2-CDsYPGofbemiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <9ee5b39a-8401-594b-0ab7-833944ad3886@sydex.com>
 <BN1PR0101MB075485A84B8FA48AAA5C22D7EDF90@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <34ee4215-8a98-46bd-89c5-460356987531@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011859000.17729@shell.lmi.net>
 <6c5d4975-fdb5-142b-c1c3-0803da0237d6@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011937150.17729@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <69e4b3b2-7762-3b39-51db-a2bf3cc2c924@sydex.com>

On 02/01/2018 07:53 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:


> IFF you ever decide that you need the FDADAP (TG43), then it could go
> into a tiny inline project box with a DC37M input and DC37F output.
> 
> IFF you wanted to use switch boxes, as I did, you would need one DC37M
> to DC37M cable (screwed permanently onto the input of the switchbox).? I
> had expected to have noise or connection problems with the switchboxes,
> but it never happened.??? Cheap crap was a lot better in those days!

Yeah, I've got an old ABCD manual printer switch with the "centronics"
connectors that swaps all 36 lines, but it always seemed like more
trouble than it was worth, so it resides in a storage cabinet.

I use a rack-mounted PC with a couple of DC37s on the front panel, so
swapping boxes is pretty simple.

I've seen some bizarre stuff, but the one that takes the cake was a boot
floppy from a PLC.  Said PLC was equipped with two floppy drives--one
for booting only and the other for user data.   The boot floppy had a
very oddball track spacing; something like 120 tpi; the user floppy was
a normal 135 tpi.  This was measured with developer (Kyread) and a
microscope.  I just couldn't believe that a manufacturer would go to
that length.

I guess the PLC manufacturer didn't want their software to be copied.

Needless to say, replacement boot floppy drives were near unobtanium and
stupid expensive when you could find one.

--Chuck








From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Feb  1 23:04:02 2018
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 21:04:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
In-Reply-To: <006301d39bd9$a65a4a60$f30edf20$@net>
References: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <07e712c2-bad3-9192-05c4-3d34792da379@gmail.com>
 <003a01d39b94$f8dacbb0$ea906310$@net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011457470.17729@shell.lmi.net>
 <BN1PR0101MB07546759D2736BF642799457EDFA0@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CACaZng=0YGhHuEVTD8pmKhDo2uVOhz25amZ2-CDsYPGofbemiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <9ee5b39a-8401-594b-0ab7-833944ad3886@sydex.com>
 <BN1PR0101MB075485A84B8FA48AAA5C22D7EDF90@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <34ee4215-8a98-46bd-89c5-460356987531@sydex.com>
 <005e01d39bd0$1f7cece0$5e76c6a0$@net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011918380.17729@shell.lmi.net>
 <006301d39bd9$a65a4a60$f30edf20$@net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802012013240.17729@shell.lmi.net>

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018, Ali wrote:
> I have been toying with making a bunch of brackets for odd connectors (I
> haven't seen a bracket that has holes cut for DC37 for example readily
> available for purchase). A friend of mine has access to an industrial laser
> cutter and has told me he would be happy to cut brackets in quantity for
> free....

Ah, yes.
Back in those days, people were throwing away "low density" (5150,5160) 
disk controller boards.
When Doctor Marty reverse-engineered the Flagstaff Engineering mods to 
5150 FDC for 8" SSSD, he was paying about $1 each for them.


But, for me, when XT (with 8 slots) replaced PC (with 5 slots), the 
generic XT cases that I was using came with bags of slightly narrower 
brackets for converting cards made for PC to the narrower bracket.  And I 
once paid a few dollars for a box of those bags of brackets at Foothill.

50 for ~$50
https://www.ebay.com/itm/162634914268

But, I had to call it "DB37" to find it.  THAT is depressing.
I'm gonna have a shot of Tequila.
Much better now.


HERE IS WHAT WE NEED! :
HERE IS WHAT WE NEED! :
https://www.ebay.com/itm/282828648805

$78.81 + $9.85 S/H
Greenlee 234  37-pin d-subminiature chassis/panel punch

A few for $110 Buy-it-now with free shipping

It's quite a bit more expensive new, at Mouser, Amazon, etc.

If anybody here buys it, you gotta at least let Ali, me, and Chuck use it 
a few times, . . . 
This whole damn hobby is about lusting after stuff that we wanted 30+ 
years ago!

35 years ago, the last GOOD department chair of CS at the college agreed 
with me, and we bought a DB25 Greenlee punch.

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Feb  1 23:20:02 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 21:20:02 -0800
Subject: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802012013240.17729@shell.lmi.net>
References: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <07e712c2-bad3-9192-05c4-3d34792da379@gmail.com>
 <003a01d39b94$f8dacbb0$ea906310$@net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011457470.17729@shell.lmi.net>
 <BN1PR0101MB07546759D2736BF642799457EDFA0@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CACaZng=0YGhHuEVTD8pmKhDo2uVOhz25amZ2-CDsYPGofbemiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <9ee5b39a-8401-594b-0ab7-833944ad3886@sydex.com>
 <BN1PR0101MB075485A84B8FA48AAA5C22D7EDF90@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <34ee4215-8a98-46bd-89c5-460356987531@sydex.com>
 <005e01d39bd0$1f7cece0$5e76c6a0$@net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011918380.17729@shell.lmi.net>
 <006301d39bd9$a65a4a60$f30edf20$@net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802012013240.17729@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <c4eca80f-d6d0-95ad-75fd-e96f5ae49782@sydex.com>

Well, I think they're overpriced, but here you go:

http://www.jdr.com/product_p/bkt-d37.htm

JDR sold all of their ISA prototype boards with a DC-37 bracket also.

--Chuck

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Feb  1 23:39:16 2018
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 21:39:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
In-Reply-To: <69e4b3b2-7762-3b39-51db-a2bf3cc2c924@sydex.com>
References: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <07e712c2-bad3-9192-05c4-3d34792da379@gmail.com>
 <003a01d39b94$f8dacbb0$ea906310$@net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011457470.17729@shell.lmi.net>
 <BN1PR0101MB07546759D2736BF642799457EDFA0@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CACaZng=0YGhHuEVTD8pmKhDo2uVOhz25amZ2-CDsYPGofbemiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <9ee5b39a-8401-594b-0ab7-833944ad3886@sydex.com>
 <BN1PR0101MB075485A84B8FA48AAA5C22D7EDF90@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <34ee4215-8a98-46bd-89c5-460356987531@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011859000.17729@shell.lmi.net>
 <6c5d4975-fdb5-142b-c1c3-0803da0237d6@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011937150.17729@shell.lmi.net>
 <69e4b3b2-7762-3b39-51db-a2bf3cc2c924@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802012105580.17729@shell.lmi.net>

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> Yeah, I've got an old ABCD manual printer switch with the "centronics"
> connectors that swaps all 36 lines, but it always seemed like more
> trouble than it was worth, so it resides in a storage cabinet.
> I use a rack-mounted PC with a couple of DC37s on the front panel, so
> swapping boxes is pretty simple.

But, if you don't have one, YOU might like:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/282828648805
I can no longer justify such a purchase  :-(
(More stuff that I used to want)


> I've seen some bizarre stuff, but the one that takes the cake was a boot
> floppy from a PLC.  Said PLC was equipped with two floppy drives--one
> for booting only and the other for user data.   The boot floppy had a
> very oddball track spacing; something like 120 tpi; the user floppy was
> a normal 135 tpi.  This was measured with developer (Kyread) and a
> microscope.  I just couldn't believe that a manufacturer would go to
> that length.
> I guess the PLC manufacturer didn't want their software to be copied.
> Needless to say, replacement boot floppy drives were near unobtanium and
> stupid expensive when you could find one.

That IS weird!
Unless, . . .
In the unlikely event that they were clueless enough to have altered the 
track spacing, but left the rest of the drive and interface alone, in 
which case it could be connected to a "standard" FDC to make an image, and 
maybe even then replace the modified drive with a standard one.
(Or something as terminally weird, like the Tandy PDD1)


When I first got a Micropolis drive, I found "100tpi" hard to believe.
But, interchange attempts showed that by the inner tracks, it was 
not 96tpi, and nor a multiple of 48tpi.
My homemade developer, and my patience to keep trying weren't good enough 
to be able to successfully do other than take their word for how many.
(Seeing the difference between 96tpi and 100tpi should be easier than 
telling the difference between Leica thread (39mm x 26 Whitworth threads 
per inch) V the early Russian Fed (39mm x 1.0m DIN thread)
some of the earliest Canon imitations (39mm x 24tpi thread))

From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Thu Feb  1 14:26:15 2018
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 14:26:15 -0600
Subject: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
In-Reply-To: <07e712c2-bad3-9192-05c4-3d34792da379@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <07e712c2-bad3-9192-05c4-3d34792da379@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs22KT9798SJThN0PmwRxQtPJyiXM2nUuvTKYNVT-z5WWYA@mail.gmail.com>

there was 8in floppy drives still being sold in the mid 90's


On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 12:23 PM, David Schmidt via cctech <
cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 2/1/2018 1:00 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote:> ibm had 8in floppy drives in
> their black from the times of white?
> This was dressed to go with the AS/400 line.  Mine is dated 1994.
>
> - David
>

From mtapley at swri.edu  Thu Feb  1 14:28:00 2018
From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 20:28:00 +0000
Subject: Password reset for ~1998 AIX on RS/6000?
In-Reply-To: <094b01d39b87$f01255a0$d03700e0$@gmail.com>
References: <92b4de6a-b537-4bfb-a1fd-1ebe8133f11a@comcast.net>
 <094b01d39b87$f01255a0$d03700e0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9988690B-CAB3-4784-8AE6-24CA91726725@swri.edu>

All,
	I?m trying to resurrect an AIX workstation that may well contain useful information for the NASA IMAGE spacecraft. 
	The system is an IBM RiscSystem/6000 43P-140 according to the badge on the front (which I think is reasonably accurate).
	It?s running a version of AIX from ~1997 or 1998. It does boot to the GUI login prompt.

	Is there a standard procedure for recovering lost passwords for these systems, or for resetting passwords? I do have physical access to the machine; it?s possible I can find an AIX install disk but it?s *highly* desirable to preserve the contents of the existing hard drive.

	Apologies in advance if this is posted somewhere obvious, I have not done my google homework so a pointer may be all I need.
					- Mark
					210-522-6025 office         210-379-4635    cell


From ethan at 757.org  Thu Feb  1 14:32:32 2018
From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 15:32:32 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Password reset for ~1998 AIX on RS/6000?
In-Reply-To: <9988690B-CAB3-4784-8AE6-24CA91726725@swri.edu>
References: <92b4de6a-b537-4bfb-a1fd-1ebe8133f11a@comcast.net>
 <094b01d39b87$f01255a0$d03700e0$@gmail.com>
 <9988690B-CAB3-4784-8AE6-24CA91726725@swri.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011530520.26349@users.757.org>

> 	Is there a standard procedure for recovering lost passwords for 
> these systems, or for resetting passwords? I do have physical access to 
> the machine; it?s possible I can find an AIX install disk but it?s 
> *highly* desirable to preserve the contents of the existing hard drive.

Image the hard drive off to a raw file using a linux host with a SCSI HBA?

Once that is done, it might be possible to run a hex editor against the 
hard drive (one that doesn't copy the contents into RAM) and then search 
for the password file. From there you can copy the des hash and use 
rainbow tables / wordfiles to crack it or replace it with a known DES 
hash?

This is how I used to reset my root password on my Lucent Audix UNIX host.

YMMV, others might have more insight.

From jon at jonworld.com  Thu Feb  1 14:45:02 2018
From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 20:45:02 +0000
Subject: Password reset for ~1998 AIX on RS/6000?
In-Reply-To: <9988690B-CAB3-4784-8AE6-24CA91726725@swri.edu>
References: <92b4de6a-b537-4bfb-a1fd-1ebe8133f11a@comcast.net>
 <094b01d39b87$f01255a0$d03700e0$@gmail.com>
 <9988690B-CAB3-4784-8AE6-24CA91726725@swri.edu>
Message-ID: <CAEOZr+2sXJYzxuz2HhgAkB4rxKLFpw=4R1W0G-+bUTWXehG=Xw@mail.gmail.com>

This may have the answer. AIX was certainly in version 4 at that
point, so this should work.

http://www-01.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?uid=isg3T1000366

On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 8:28 PM, Tapley, Mark via cctech
<cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> All,
>         I?m trying to resurrect an AIX workstation that may well contain useful information for the NASA IMAGE spacecraft.
>         The system is an IBM RiscSystem/6000 43P-140 according to the badge on the front (which I think is reasonably accurate).
>         It?s running a version of AIX from ~1997 or 1998. It does boot to the GUI login prompt.
>
>         Is there a standard procedure for recovering lost passwords for these systems, or for resetting passwords? I do have physical access to the machine; it?s possible I can find an AIX install disk but it?s *highly* desirable to preserve the contents of the existing hard drive.
>
>         Apologies in advance if this is posted somewhere obvious, I have not done my google homework so a pointer may be all I need.
>                                         - Mark
>                                         210-522-6025 office         210-379-4635    cell
>



-- 
-Jon
+44 7792 149029

From mark at wickensonline.co.uk  Thu Feb  1 15:06:52 2018
From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 21:06:52 +0000
Subject: VMS 8.4 Alpha Hobbyist disk images
In-Reply-To: <92b4de6a-b537-4bfb-a1fd-1ebe8133f11a@comcast.net>
References: <92b4de6a-b537-4bfb-a1fd-1ebe8133f11a@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CABp7FHU=EzaGsru1_OE8id_7OFEAEPmQuT_4-zB0+nZukVKeYA@mail.gmail.com>

Doug

Unless you've got a specific reason to run OpenVMS 8.4 for an Alphaserver
1000A I'd recommend a version more in keeping with the age of the machine,
either a variant of 7.3 or something earlier.

How much memory do you have installed?

Regards, Mark.

On 1 February 2018 at 17:55, Douglas Taylor via cctech <
cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I'm getting an Alphaserver 1000a and wanted to install VMS 8.4 - hobbyist
> license from CD.
>
> So, I went to the folder on my PC where I have the 8.4 hobbyist
> distribution.  There are 3 ISO files; ALPHA084, ALPHA084LP1 and ALPHA084LP2.
>
> I thought I would burn these to CD and up and away.  However, Windows 7
> balks and says, 'The selected disc image file isn't valid'.
>
> Is it Windows 7 or is there something I'm missing?  Is the CD on the
> Alphaserver 2048 byte block size or 512?
>
> Doug
>
>
>

From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Thu Feb  1 15:57:40 2018
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 14:57:40 -0700
Subject: Password reset for ~1998 AIX on RS/6000?
In-Reply-To: <9988690B-CAB3-4784-8AE6-24CA91726725@swri.edu>
References: <92b4de6a-b537-4bfb-a1fd-1ebe8133f11a@comcast.net>
 <094b01d39b87$f01255a0$d03700e0$@gmail.com>
 <9988690B-CAB3-4784-8AE6-24CA91726725@swri.edu>
Message-ID: <f68fddf2-8084-863b-c24e-16c0a5568575@tnetconsulting.net>

On 02/01/2018 01:28 PM, Tapley, Mark via cctech wrote:
> Is there a standard procedure for recovering lost passwords for these 
> systems, or for resetting passwords? I do have physical access to the 
> machine; it?s possible I can find an AIX install disk but it?s 
> *highly* desirable to preserve the contents of the existing hard drive.

According to an AIX SME (currently working for IBM), yes, this is a 
standard and apparently relatively easy procedure.

The first Google hit (he was being lazy) was this:

http://www-01.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?uid=isg3T1000366

He says it's fairly straight forward.

He did pass along the following pro tip:  "?that was a pci based 
system...so he should follow the instructions section for that in the kB 
link I sent?"

P.S.  Please don't reply to / hijack an existing thread for a new topic.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From mtapley at swri.edu  Thu Feb  1 21:28:58 2018
From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 03:28:58 +0000
Subject: Password reset for ~1998 AIX on RS/6000?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011530520.26349@users.757.org>
References: <92b4de6a-b537-4bfb-a1fd-1ebe8133f11a@comcast.net>
 <094b01d39b87$f01255a0$d03700e0$@gmail.com>
 <9988690B-CAB3-4784-8AE6-24CA91726725@swri.edu>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011530520.26349@users.757.org>
Message-ID: <2412D016-17CC-4541-94B4-859A255A14C4@swri.edu>

On Feb 1, 2018, at 2:32 PM, ethan at 757.org wrote:

>> 	Is there a standard procedure for recovering lost passwords for these systems, or for resetting passwords? I do have physical access to the machine; it?s possible I can find an AIX install disk but it?s *highly* desirable to preserve the contents of the existing hard drive.
> 
> Image the hard drive off to a raw file using a linux host with a SCSI HBA?
> 
> Once that is done, it might be possible to run a hex editor against the hard drive (one that doesn't copy the contents into RAM) and then search for the password file. From there you can copy the des hash and use rainbow tables / wordfiles to crack it or replace it with a known DES hash?
> 
> This is how I used to reset my root password on my Lucent Audix UNIX host.
> 
> YMMV, others might have more insight.

Update, I did locate a CD saying ?AIX V4.2.1 for 5765-C34? and this URL:

http://www-01.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?uid=isg3T1000366

which may be what I need. I?ll try this ASAP, hopefully tomorrow, and report what happens. 

Thanks, and any more ideas welcome!

From pete at petelancashire.com  Thu Feb  1 22:20:53 2018
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 20:20:53 -0800
Subject: Password reset for ~1998 AIX on RS/6000?
In-Reply-To: <2412D016-17CC-4541-94B4-859A255A14C4@swri.edu>
References: <92b4de6a-b537-4bfb-a1fd-1ebe8133f11a@comcast.net>
 <094b01d39b87$f01255a0$d03700e0$@gmail.com>
 <9988690B-CAB3-4784-8AE6-24CA91726725@swri.edu>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011530520.26349@users.757.org>
 <2412D016-17CC-4541-94B4-859A255A14C4@swri.edu>
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u8CzKMvjniVq0-q+CsR+X+dWAr2DRRdkqsVp3PU7-pxQg@mail.gmail.com>

I like the idea of creating an image before something could screwup what is
on the disk.

dd is your friend

-pete

On Feb 1, 2018 7:28 PM, "Tapley, Mark via cctech" <cctech at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> On Feb 1, 2018, at 2:32 PM, ethan at 757.org wrote:
>
> >>      Is there a standard procedure for recovering lost passwords for
> these systems, or for resetting passwords? I do have physical access to the
> machine; it?s possible I can find an AIX install disk but it?s *highly*
> desirable to preserve the contents of the existing hard drive.
> >
> > Image the hard drive off to a raw file using a linux host with a SCSI
> HBA?
> >
> > Once that is done, it might be possible to run a hex editor against the
> hard drive (one that doesn't copy the contents into RAM) and then search
> for the password file. From there you can copy the des hash and use rainbow
> tables / wordfiles to crack it or replace it with a known DES hash?
> >
> > This is how I used to reset my root password on my Lucent Audix UNIX
> host.
> >
> > YMMV, others might have more insight.
>
> Update, I did locate a CD saying ?AIX V4.2.1 for 5765-C34? and this URL:
>
> http://www-01.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?uid=isg3T1000366
>
> which may be what I need. I?ll try this ASAP, hopefully tomorrow, and
> report what happens.
>
> Thanks, and any more ideas welcome!
>

From bear at typewritten.org  Thu Feb  1 22:24:42 2018
From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 20:24:42 -0800
Subject: Password reset for ~1998 AIX on RS/6000?
In-Reply-To: <2412D016-17CC-4541-94B4-859A255A14C4@swri.edu>
References: <92b4de6a-b537-4bfb-a1fd-1ebe8133f11a@comcast.net>
 <094b01d39b87$f01255a0$d03700e0$@gmail.com>
 <9988690B-CAB3-4784-8AE6-24CA91726725@swri.edu>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011530520.26349@users.757.org>
 <2412D016-17CC-4541-94B4-859A255A14C4@swri.edu>
Message-ID: <47A524B6-26BF-487F-AA75-256C80C6711D@typewritten.org>


On Feb 1, 2018, at 7:28 PM, Tapley, Mark via cctech wrote:

>> Image the hard drive off to a raw file using a linux host with a SCSI HBA?
>> 
>> Once that is done, it might be possible to run a hex editor against the hard drive (one that doesn't copy the contents into RAM) and then search for the password file. From there you can copy the des hash and use rainbow tables / wordfiles to crack it or replace it with a known DES hash?

You don't need to do any of these things.

> Update, I did locate a CD saying ?AIX V4.2.1 for 5765-C34? and this URL:

All you need is this disk. You can boot it, and use it to start a maintenance shell, from which you can mount the root filesystem and edit the password file(s) directly. The procedure you found will get you there, easily.

ok
bear.


-- 
until further notice


From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb  2 00:17:48 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 22:17:48 -0800
Subject: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802012105580.17729@shell.lmi.net>
References: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <07e712c2-bad3-9192-05c4-3d34792da379@gmail.com>
 <003a01d39b94$f8dacbb0$ea906310$@net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011457470.17729@shell.lmi.net>
 <BN1PR0101MB07546759D2736BF642799457EDFA0@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CACaZng=0YGhHuEVTD8pmKhDo2uVOhz25amZ2-CDsYPGofbemiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <9ee5b39a-8401-594b-0ab7-833944ad3886@sydex.com>
 <BN1PR0101MB075485A84B8FA48AAA5C22D7EDF90@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <34ee4215-8a98-46bd-89c5-460356987531@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011859000.17729@shell.lmi.net>
 <6c5d4975-fdb5-142b-c1c3-0803da0237d6@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011937150.17729@shell.lmi.net>
 <69e4b3b2-7762-3b39-51db-a2bf3cc2c924@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802012105580.17729@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <5f979907-3733-db7b-a382-51f94a60c4ef@sydex.com>

On 02/01/2018 09:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> When I first got a Micropolis drive, I found "100tpi" hard to believe.
> But, interchange attempts showed that by the inner tracks, it was not
> 96tpi, and nor a multiple of 48tpi.
> My homemade developer, and my patience to keep trying weren't good
> enough to be able to successfully do other than take their word for how
> many.
> (Seeing the difference between 96tpi and 100tpi should be easier than
> telling the difference between Leica thread (39mm x 26 Whitworth threads
> per inch) V the early Russian Fed (39mm x 1.0m DIN thread)
> some of the earliest Canon imitations (39mm x 24tpi thread))

Other than a brief encounter with an SA400 (single-sided 48 tpi. 35
cylinders), the Micropolis 100 tpi drives were my first real run in with
5.25" drives.

Great drives, heavy, built like a tank--and expensive.  I've got a
late-model 96 tpi Micropolis that illustrates their NIH mindset--the PCB
 pivots as you close the door latch.  Still used the precision-ground
leadscrew positioner.  Buffered seek; something like 4 steps per
cylinder, if you can believe it.

ISTR that if you stick a formatted 100 tpi ddisk in a 96 tpi drive and
do a read ID, the first cylinder reads as 6.  That is, the 100 tpi disk
is offset a bit more toward the outside of the disk.  You can read a few
cylinders after that, before the misregistration causes things to get weird.

--Chuck



From derschjo at gmail.com  Fri Feb  2 00:25:37 2018
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 22:25:37 -0800
Subject: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
In-Reply-To: <003b01d39baf$46bbc810$d4335830$@net>
References: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <07e712c2-bad3-9192-05c4-3d34792da379@gmail.com>
 <003a01d39b94$f8dacbb0$ea906310$@net>
 <8f05edea-3b7d-aaef-54b6-c96fdd3348a0@gmail.com>
 <CADBZjLax+eVnNTTo1eawaDdODWqm2PkOjrz463D-6yb+55mG6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <003b01d39baf$46bbc810$d4335830$@net>
Message-ID: <719b0e5c-e0e8-2724-7dcd-aac4b45fb8cf@gmail.com>

On 2/1/2018 2:52 PM, Ali wrote:

>> This is true.  I have the pinouts at home if anyone wants them, I can
>> post them when I get home from work.
> Josh,
>
> That would be great. Thanks.
>
> -Ali
>
>
> .
>

Here's what I have, from notes I took about 10 years ago when I built a 
cable after beeping things out.? The YE-DATA drive itself uses the 
standard Shugart interface, IIRC. The below table lists the 50-pin edge 
connector pins of interest, the 37-pin d-sub on the back of the drive 
unit, and the 34-pin PC floppy cable.? I make no guarantees, but it 
worked for me:

50-pin edge??? ?? 37-pin Dsub??? ??? 34-pin edge
-----------??? ?? -----------??? ??? -----------
1??? ???? ??? ??? 20??? ??? ? ? ? ? ??? GND
2??? ??? ??? ???? 2??? ? ??? ? ?? ? ??? ????? (TG43)
9??? ???? ??? ??? 25??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? GND
10??? ??? ??? ??? 7??? ? ??? ? ?? ? ??? N/C
11??? ??? ??? ??? 37??? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? GND
12?? ? ?? ??? ??? 19?? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? 34??? (Ready)
13??? ?? ? ?? ??? 36? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? GND
14??? ?? ?? ? ??? 18?? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? 32??? (Side1)
17??? ??? ? ??? ? 28? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? GND
18??? ?? ?? ? ??? 10? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? 16??? (Motor ON/Load)
19??? ? ??? ? ??? 24? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? GND
20??? ? ??? ? ??? 6?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? 8??? (Index)
21??? ?? ?? ? ??? 27? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? GND
22??? ?? ?? ? ??? 9?? ?? ?? ? ? ??? ??? N/C
25??? ??? ?? ? ?? 26? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? GND
26??? ??? ? ??? ? 8?? ?? ? ?? ? ??? ??? 12??? (DS1->DS0)
33??? ?? ? ?? ??? 29? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? GND
34??? ? ??? ? ??? 11?? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? 18??? (Direction)
35??? ??? ??? ? ? 30?? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? GND
36??? ??? ? ??? ? 12?? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? 20??? (Step)
37??? ??? ?? ?? ? 31? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? GND
38??? ?? ? ?? ??? 13? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? 22??? (Write Data)
39?? ?? ? ??? ??? 32? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? GND
40?? ?? ? ??? ??? 14? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? 24??? (Write Gate)
41??? ?? ? ?? ??? 33? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? GND
42?? ?? ? ??? ??? 15? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? 26??? (Track 0)
43?? ?? ? ??? ??? 34?? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? GND
44??? ?? ? ?? ??? 16?? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? 28??? (Write Protect)
45??? ?? ? ?? ??? 35?? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? GND
46??? ?? ? ?? ??? 17?? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? 30??? (Read Data)

From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Fri Feb  2 00:41:59 2018
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 00:41:59 -0600
Subject: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
In-Reply-To: <5f979907-3733-db7b-a382-51f94a60c4ef@sydex.com>
References: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <07e712c2-bad3-9192-05c4-3d34792da379@gmail.com>
 <003a01d39b94$f8dacbb0$ea906310$@net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011457470.17729@shell.lmi.net>
 <BN1PR0101MB07546759D2736BF642799457EDFA0@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CACaZng=0YGhHuEVTD8pmKhDo2uVOhz25amZ2-CDsYPGofbemiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <9ee5b39a-8401-594b-0ab7-833944ad3886@sydex.com>
 <BN1PR0101MB075485A84B8FA48AAA5C22D7EDF90@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <34ee4215-8a98-46bd-89c5-460356987531@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011859000.17729@shell.lmi.net>
 <6c5d4975-fdb5-142b-c1c3-0803da0237d6@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011937150.17729@shell.lmi.net>
 <69e4b3b2-7762-3b39-51db-a2bf3cc2c924@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802012105580.17729@shell.lmi.net>
 <5f979907-3733-db7b-a382-51f94a60c4ef@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs22xSHqBxMaWU3dRoNTyB2V5+-MriQgpsPBq4=QTr77UDg@mail.gmail.com>

plc companies aka industrial companies do these weird things to force u to
buy their hardware and be locked in..........

ge faunic had their workmaster systems for interfacing into series one six
90/ series systems ect u could get away with a 5155 or a p70 as those were
what the workmaster 1 and 2 were built from but in black and cost 12-20k
new with software and interface card and or searial cable

as for the weird plc that did the floppies with that spacing do you
remember the manufacture sounds like something siemens would do god their
products suck they seem to be really good at going out buying good hardware
software and making them disappear

On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 12:17 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 02/01/2018 09:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>
> > When I first got a Micropolis drive, I found "100tpi" hard to believe.
> > But, interchange attempts showed that by the inner tracks, it was not
> > 96tpi, and nor a multiple of 48tpi.
> > My homemade developer, and my patience to keep trying weren't good
> > enough to be able to successfully do other than take their word for how
> > many.
> > (Seeing the difference between 96tpi and 100tpi should be easier than
> > telling the difference between Leica thread (39mm x 26 Whitworth threads
> > per inch) V the early Russian Fed (39mm x 1.0m DIN thread)
> > some of the earliest Canon imitations (39mm x 24tpi thread))
>
> Other than a brief encounter with an SA400 (single-sided 48 tpi. 35
> cylinders), the Micropolis 100 tpi drives were my first real run in with
> 5.25" drives.
>
> Great drives, heavy, built like a tank--and expensive.  I've got a
> late-model 96 tpi Micropolis that illustrates their NIH mindset--the PCB
>  pivots as you close the door latch.  Still used the precision-ground
> leadscrew positioner.  Buffered seek; something like 4 steps per
> cylinder, if you can believe it.
>
> ISTR that if you stick a formatted 100 tpi ddisk in a 96 tpi drive and
> do a read ID, the first cylinder reads as 6.  That is, the 100 tpi disk
> is offset a bit more toward the outside of the disk.  You can read a few
> cylinders after that, before the misregistration causes things to get
> weird.
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb  2 00:45:09 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 22:45:09 -0800
Subject: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
In-Reply-To: <719b0e5c-e0e8-2724-7dcd-aac4b45fb8cf@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <07e712c2-bad3-9192-05c4-3d34792da379@gmail.com>
 <003a01d39b94$f8dacbb0$ea906310$@net>
 <8f05edea-3b7d-aaef-54b6-c96fdd3348a0@gmail.com>
 <CADBZjLax+eVnNTTo1eawaDdODWqm2PkOjrz463D-6yb+55mG6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <003b01d39baf$46bbc810$d4335830$@net>
 <719b0e5c-e0e8-2724-7dcd-aac4b45fb8cf@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <eaf69947-e721-f56b-7f1a-a5ea29496b76@sydex.com>

On 02/01/2018 10:25 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote:


> 50-pin edge??? ?? 37-pin Dsub??? ??? 34-pin edge
> -----------??? ?? -----------??? ??? -----------
> 1??? ???? ??? ??? 20??? ??? ? ? ? ? ??? GND
> 2??? ??? ??? ???? 2??? ? ??? ? ?? ? ??? ????? (TG43)
> 9??? ???? ??? ??? 25??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? GND
> 10??? ??? ??? ??? 7??? ? ??? ? ?? ? ??? N/C
> 11??? ??? ??? ??? 37??? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? GND
> 12?? ? ?? ??? ??? 19?? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? 34??? (Ready)
> 13??? ?? ? ?? ??? 36? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? GND
> 14??? ?? ?? ? ??? 18?? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? 32??? (Side1)
> 17??? ??? ? ??? ? 28? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? GND
> 18??? ?? ?? ? ??? 10? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? 16??? (Motor ON/Load)
> 19??? ? ??? ? ??? 24? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? GND
> 20??? ? ??? ? ??? 6?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? 8??? (Index)
> 21??? ?? ?? ? ??? 27? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? GND
> 22??? ?? ?? ? ??? 9?? ?? ?? ? ? ??? ??? N/C
> 25??? ??? ?? ? ?? 26? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? GND
> 26??? ??? ? ??? ? 8?? ?? ? ?? ? ??? ??? 12??? (DS1->DS0)
> 33??? ?? ? ?? ??? 29? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? GND
> 34??? ? ??? ? ??? 11?? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? 18??? (Direction)
> 35??? ??? ??? ? ? 30?? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? GND
> 36??? ??? ? ??? ? 12?? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? 20??? (Step)
> 37??? ??? ?? ?? ? 31? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? GND
> 38??? ?? ? ?? ??? 13? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? 22??? (Write Data)
> 39?? ?? ? ??? ??? 32? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? GND
> 40?? ?? ? ??? ??? 14? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? 24??? (Write Gate)
> 41??? ?? ? ?? ??? 33? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? GND
> 42?? ?? ? ??? ??? 15? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? 26??? (Track 0)
> 43?? ?? ? ??? ??? 34?? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? GND
> 44??? ?? ? ?? ??? 16?? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? 28??? (Write Protect)
> 45??? ?? ? ?? ??? 35?? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? GND
> 46??? ?? ? ?? ??? 17?? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? 30??? (Read Data)

There's also a wiring list in the CompatiCard IV manual, from what, 20
years ago and a description of the cable in the 22Disk manual from (has
it been that long?) 30 years ago.

Nihil sub sole novum.

--Chuck


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri Feb  2 08:34:41 2018
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Fri,  2 Feb 2018 09:34:41 -0500 (EST)
Subject: MACSYMA classic
Message-ID: <20180202143441.C4B1C18C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Lars Brinkhoff

    > Right, we haven't found sources for everything in Macsyma. 

Ow. How much, very roughly, is missing (if you happen to know) - 5%, 50%?

    > I'd say we're lucky to have it running at all

Good point!

	Noel

From imp at bsdimp.com  Fri Feb  2 08:39:14 2018
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 07:39:14 -0700
Subject: MACSYMA classic
In-Reply-To: <20180202143441.C4B1C18C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20180202143441.C4B1C18C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfrE+if-stEZUC_QTnkLZ7QgCw4wCM_6_RBdadWBSB9ndg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 7:34 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>     > From: Lars Brinkhoff
>
>     > Right, we haven't found sources for everything in Macsyma.
>
> Ow. How much, very roughly, is missing (if you happen to know) - 5%, 50%?
>
>     > I'd say we're lucky to have it running at all
>
> Good point!
>

I guess I'm ignorant on some history.

What relationship is there between this, the 1982 DOE version and the
current GPL'd version available here
https://sourceforge.net/p/maxima/code/ci/master/tree/ ?

Warner

From lars at nocrew.org  Fri Feb  2 10:00:19 2018
From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2018 16:00:19 +0000
Subject: MACSYMA classic
In-Reply-To: <20180202143441.C4B1C18C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> (Noel Chiappa
 via cctalk's message of "Fri, 2 Feb 2018 09:34:41 -0500 (EST)")
References: <20180202143441.C4B1C18C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <7w7erv9yb0.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

Noel Chiappa wrote:
>> Right, we haven't found sources for everything in Macsyma. 
> Ow. How much, very roughly, is missing (if you happen to know) - 5%, 50%?

I'm not sure, but Eric would know.  For now, notes on his progress are
here:

https://github.com/PDP-10/its/issues/284

From lars at nocrew.org  Fri Feb  2 12:26:01 2018
From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2018 18:26:01 +0000
Subject: MACSYMA classic
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfrE+if-stEZUC_QTnkLZ7QgCw4wCM_6_RBdadWBSB9ndg@mail.gmail.com>
 (Warner Losh via cctalk's message of "Fri, 2 Feb 2018 07:39:14 -0700")
References: <20180202143441.C4B1C18C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CANCZdfrE+if-stEZUC_QTnkLZ7QgCw4wCM_6_RBdadWBSB9ndg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7w1si39rk6.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

Warner Losh wrote:
> What relationship is there between this, the 1982 DOE version and the
> current GPL'd version available here
> https://sourceforge.net/p/maxima/code/ci/master/tree/ ?

The original Macsyma was developed at MIT.  I think the LCG group at
Project MAC?  It was written in Maclisp.  It was ported over to Maclisp
offspring such as Lisp machine Lisp, NIL, and Franz Lisp.  They all used
a common base at first, with conditionals for different flavours.

In 1982 MIT licensed Macsyma to Symbolics, but also made it available to
the US Department of Energy.  Apparently DOE used the NIL.

Maxima is based on DOE Macsyma and was subsequently GPLed.

What Eric et al managed to get running is a mix of files from ITS dumps,
and an old Lisp machine version.  The Lisp machine version still has the
conditionals intact.  Source files are taken from ITS where possible,
else from the Lisp machine.  Where no source file was found anywhere,
binary files from ITS were used to fill gaps.

From spacewar at gmail.com  Fri Feb  2 13:30:52 2018
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 12:30:52 -0700
Subject: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095
In-Reply-To: <0006cbec-0b0b-5f2a-7260-ecc71e96cbe6@sydex.com>
References: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <07e712c2-bad3-9192-05c4-3d34792da379@gmail.com>
 <003a01d39b94$f8dacbb0$ea906310$@net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011457470.17729@shell.lmi.net>
 <BN1PR0101MB07546759D2736BF642799457EDFA0@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011742090.17729@shell.lmi.net>
 <0006cbec-0b0b-5f2a-7260-ecc71e96cbe6@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTR2nh3ONk2kF=96=QXPj3wHQ36gfqcv74NrhciCCm+9dA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 7:04 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Much to my surprise, a P3 Intel i820 (that's the one with RDRAM) FIC
> board not only handles FM, but 128-byte sector MFM.
>

Well, great, but then what do you do when you want to read and write 80
(decimal) byte MFM sectors?
:-)

From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net  Fri Feb  2 10:24:27 2018
From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 11:24:27 -0500
Subject: VMS 8.4 Alpha Hobbyist disk images
In-Reply-To: <094b01d39b87$f01255a0$d03700e0$@gmail.com>
References: <92b4de6a-b537-4bfb-a1fd-1ebe8133f11a@comcast.net>
 <094b01d39b87$f01255a0$d03700e0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3ae3c8a6-a0a6-3f16-1b51-24ab49257071@comcast.net>

In my excitement about getting a new machine to play with I forgot what 
I had done previously with these iso images.? That is, I used linux to 
dd them onto SD cards attached to SCSI2SD drive emulators.
Geez, a few months go by and I forget everything.

BTW, I looked at imgburn.? When I downloaded the installer my Norton 
Antivirus found a Trojan in it, so I passed.

Doug

On 2/1/2018 1:10 PM, Dave Wade wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Douglas
>> Taylor via cctech
>> Sent: 01 February 2018 17:56
>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts <cctech at classiccmp.org>
>> Subject: VMS 8.4 Alpha Hobbyist disk images
>>
>> I'm getting an Alphaserver 1000a and wanted to install VMS 8.4 - hobbyist
>> license from CD.
>>
>> So, I went to the folder on my PC where I have the 8.4 hobbyist
>> distribution.  There are 3 ISO files; ALPHA084, ALPHA084LP1 and
>> ALPHA084LP2.
>>
> Whilst they may have a ".iso" extension, they are not, strictly speaking "ISO" files as that implies a file format within the CD.
> I believe that these are VMS (ODS) format disks and burning programs that check for ISO will fail.
>
>> I thought I would burn these to CD and up and away.  However, Windows 7
>> balks and says, 'The selected disc image file isn't valid'.
>>
>> Is it Windows 7 or is there something I'm missing?  Is the CD on the
> Try http://www.imgburn.com/
> I think that?s what I used...
>
>> Alphaserver 2048 byte block size or 512?
>>
> I honestly can't remember, but I don't think it matters.
>
>> Doug
>>
> Dave
>


From ian.finder at gmail.com  Fri Feb  2 14:49:49 2018
From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 12:49:49 -0800
Subject: Password reset for ~1998 AIX on RS/6000?
In-Reply-To: <47A524B6-26BF-487F-AA75-256C80C6711D@typewritten.org>
References: <92b4de6a-b537-4bfb-a1fd-1ebe8133f11a@comcast.net>
 <094b01d39b87$f01255a0$d03700e0$@gmail.com>
 <9988690B-CAB3-4784-8AE6-24CA91726725@swri.edu>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011530520.26349@users.757.org>
 <2412D016-17CC-4541-94B4-859A255A14C4@swri.edu>
 <47A524B6-26BF-487F-AA75-256C80C6711D@typewritten.org>
Message-ID: <CAHQ+QWAAN-OqQGGdpTcbGSkCNB_f_ExJboq1+Ztb=eurBiSeuQ@mail.gmail.com>

I had this experience with a Tadpole N40, running AIX 3.

I simply DD'ed the drive, took the image...
$ strings aix-machine.img | grep root:
...to get the password line.

Dump that into a passwd file and run john (the password cracker utility) on
it for a couple days.

I don't think Linux can mount the early AIX filesystems directly.

On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 8:24 PM, r.stricklin via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> On Feb 1, 2018, at 7:28 PM, Tapley, Mark via cctech wrote:
>
> >> Image the hard drive off to a raw file using a linux host with a SCSI
> HBA?
> >>
> >> Once that is done, it might be possible to run a hex editor against the
> hard drive (one that doesn't copy the contents into RAM) and then search
> for the password file. From there you can copy the des hash and use rainbow
> tables / wordfiles to crack it or replace it with a known DES hash?
>
> You don't need to do any of these things.
>
> > Update, I did locate a CD saying ?AIX V4.2.1 for 5765-C34? and this URL:
>
> All you need is this disk. You can boot it, and use it to start a
> maintenance shell, from which you can mount the root filesystem and edit
> the password file(s) directly. The procedure you found will get you there,
> easily.
>
> ok
> bear.
>
>
> --
> until further notice
>
>


-- 
   Ian Finder
   (206) 395-MIPS
   ian.finder at gmail.com

From ian.finder at gmail.com  Fri Feb  2 14:49:49 2018
From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 12:49:49 -0800
Subject: Password reset for ~1998 AIX on RS/6000?
In-Reply-To: <47A524B6-26BF-487F-AA75-256C80C6711D@typewritten.org>
References: <92b4de6a-b537-4bfb-a1fd-1ebe8133f11a@comcast.net>
 <094b01d39b87$f01255a0$d03700e0$@gmail.com>
 <9988690B-CAB3-4784-8AE6-24CA91726725@swri.edu>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011530520.26349@users.757.org>
 <2412D016-17CC-4541-94B4-859A255A14C4@swri.edu>
 <47A524B6-26BF-487F-AA75-256C80C6711D@typewritten.org>
Message-ID: <CAHQ+QWAAN-OqQGGdpTcbGSkCNB_f_ExJboq1+Ztb=eurBiSeuQ@mail.gmail.com>

I had this experience with a Tadpole N40, running AIX 3.

I simply DD'ed the drive, took the image...
$ strings aix-machine.img | grep root:
...to get the password line.

Dump that into a passwd file and run john (the password cracker utility) on
it for a couple days.

I don't think Linux can mount the early AIX filesystems directly.

On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 8:24 PM, r.stricklin via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> On Feb 1, 2018, at 7:28 PM, Tapley, Mark via cctech wrote:
>
> >> Image the hard drive off to a raw file using a linux host with a SCSI
> HBA?
> >>
> >> Once that is done, it might be possible to run a hex editor against the
> hard drive (one that doesn't copy the contents into RAM) and then search
> for the password file. From there you can copy the des hash and use rainbow
> tables / wordfiles to crack it or replace it with a known DES hash?
>
> You don't need to do any of these things.
>
> > Update, I did locate a CD saying ?AIX V4.2.1 for 5765-C34? and this URL:
>
> All you need is this disk. You can boot it, and use it to start a
> maintenance shell, from which you can mount the root filesystem and edit
> the password file(s) directly. The procedure you found will get you there,
> easily.
>
> ok
> bear.
>
>
> --
> until further notice
>
>


-- 
   Ian Finder
   (206) 395-MIPS
   ian.finder at gmail.com

From bob at theadamsons.co.uk  Fri Feb  2 14:07:11 2018
From: bob at theadamsons.co.uk (Robert Adamson)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 20:07:11 -0000
Subject: VMS 8.4 Alpha Hobbyist disk images
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <000401d39c61$6a2e0d00$3e8a2700$@co.uk>

> Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 12:55:41 -0500
> From: Douglas Taylor <dj.taylor4 at comcast.net>
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" <cctech at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: VMS 8.4 Alpha Hobbyist disk images
> Message-ID: <92b4de6a-b537-4bfb-a1fd-1ebe8133f11a at comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
> 
> I'm getting an Alphaserver 1000a and wanted to install VMS 8.4 -
> hobbyist license from CD.
> 
> So, I went to the folder on my PC where I have the 8.4 hobbyist
> distribution.? There are 3 ISO files; ALPHA084, ALPHA084LP1 and
> ALPHA084LP2.
> 
> I thought I would burn these to CD and up and away.? However, Windows 7
> balks and says, 'The selected disc image file isn't valid'.
> 
> Is it Windows 7 or is there something I'm missing?? Is the CD on the
> Alphaserver 2048 byte block size or 512?
> 
> Doug

They _are_ 'ISO' images but in a format which Windows 7 or whatever burning
program you're using doesn't understand.
I used Nero (or Daemon I think)  to write CDs for my VAX but there will be
plenty of other programs equally suitable.
You don't need to do anything special, just treat them as an ISO image and
let the burning software get on with it.
Once written, Windows won't be able to read them so don't panic. If the
burning software includes verification then it (not Windows) will be able to
read them back OK.

(I'm using VMS v7.3 but I'm sure this is no different).

Generally AFAIK the CD readers on Vaxes (Vaxen - ugh!!) and Alphas will
deliver 512 byte blocks but this isn't relevant for the image itself.

Bob



From mark at wickensonline.co.uk  Fri Feb  2 14:11:53 2018
From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 20:11:53 +0000
Subject: VMS 8.4 Alpha Hobbyist disk images
In-Reply-To: <000401d39c61$6a2e0d00$3e8a2700$@co.uk>
References: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <000401d39c61$6a2e0d00$3e8a2700$@co.uk>
Message-ID: <CABp7FHVyARKDJChj9WG-OOTuV5DBtRxUdYvtUrem7+n9sXNCUQ@mail.gmail.com>

https://cdburnerxp.se/en/home

CDBurnerXP is the one to use - as recommended by Stephen Hoffman himself.

Mark.

On 2 February 2018 at 20:07, Robert Adamson via cctech <
cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> > Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 12:55:41 -0500
> > From: Douglas Taylor <dj.taylor4 at comcast.net>
> > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" <cctech at classiccmp.org>
> > Subject: VMS 8.4 Alpha Hobbyist disk images
> > Message-ID: <92b4de6a-b537-4bfb-a1fd-1ebe8133f11a at comcast.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
> >
> > I'm getting an Alphaserver 1000a and wanted to install VMS 8.4 -
> > hobbyist license from CD.
> >
> > So, I went to the folder on my PC where I have the 8.4 hobbyist
> > distribution.? There are 3 ISO files; ALPHA084, ALPHA084LP1 and
> > ALPHA084LP2.
> >
> > I thought I would burn these to CD and up and away.? However, Windows 7
> > balks and says, 'The selected disc image file isn't valid'.
> >
> > Is it Windows 7 or is there something I'm missing?? Is the CD on the
> > Alphaserver 2048 byte block size or 512?
> >
> > Doug
>
> They _are_ 'ISO' images but in a format which Windows 7 or whatever burning
> program you're using doesn't understand.
> I used Nero (or Daemon I think)  to write CDs for my VAX but there will be
> plenty of other programs equally suitable.
> You don't need to do anything special, just treat them as an ISO image and
> let the burning software get on with it.
> Once written, Windows won't be able to read them so don't panic. If the
> burning software includes verification then it (not Windows) will be able
> to
> read them back OK.
>
> (I'm using VMS v7.3 but I'm sure this is no different).
>
> Generally AFAIK the CD readers on Vaxes (Vaxen - ugh!!) and Alphas will
> deliver 512 byte blocks but this isn't relevant for the image itself.
>
> Bob
>
>
>

From tony.aiuto at gmail.com  Fri Feb  2 15:35:10 2018
From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 16:35:10 -0500
Subject: Interest Check: Belden Thicknet 10base5 Ethernet Coax
In-Reply-To: <CAA+dubL8m4V+eOys7RM=qNWshTJeEcHsQ8jhjVD4x0-HooQBRQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA+dub+p8TWenK9+Uy_jbz3mvpVU3B-FQAjxuhuX8fcenC0Kdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <94c5e46c-c78d-cb4b-5553-24eb5b54e9c3@sydex.com>
 <202d49f6-59e3-2ec5-3f9f-fee1443f008f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAA+dubKqC_JawKzWZYebNsVzFV7aX5gmr7oFrCFGtnNsb72szw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwKUXMOmgrdJZZ5JRjjhwfiekUZkp9wSJ-D=vdjPYbDXVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA+dubL8m4V+eOys7RM=qNWshTJeEcHsQ8jhjVD4x0-HooQBRQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKGyVsXMXk_eqQVQ2OUL_h19GztH+TBzDH_xrS3hoxLGXj5uDg@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting. Count me in for 20'. I would want to pick up at VCF east.

These people have taps, but no transceivers.
https://www.connectorpeople.com/Connector/TYCO-AMP-TE_CONNECTIVITY/2/228752-1

Has anyone found the right terminators?



On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 7:55 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I believe my guy referenced that listing as his basis for his price. I'm
> sure freight would bring it up to about the same per-foot cost, if not
> higher. I am sometimes out near the seller of that particular eBay listing,
> so I'll send them an email and see if they're interested in a local pick-up
> deal.
>
> Thanks,
> Jonathan
>
> On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 7:48 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 4:06 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk
> > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> > > Full disclosure on price: right now if I buy one spool, it'll be
> > $0.60/foot
> > > to me, I was thinking I'd charge $1/foot for moderate lengths, of
> course
> > > I'm willing to make a deal on bulk purchases, especially if it ends up
> > > being local pick-up (here in VA or VCF East). I haven't dressed out
> cable
> > > this large for N connectors in a long time (last stuff was Times
> > Microwave
> > > LMR400 for long-range 802.11b stuff) so I'm not sure what the N
> > connectors
> > > cost nowadays or how long it'll take me to crimp them on.
> > >
> > > Here's the datasheet on the stuff:
> > >
> > > https://catalog.belden.com/techdata/EN/89880_techdata.pdf?ip=false
> > >
> > > DEC spec, orange jacket, plenum rated.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Jonathan
> >
> > There is also this seller with a couple of 1100 foot spools of Belden
> > 89880 for $480 also in VA. The datasheet says 125 pounds per 1000 feet
> > so if you had to ship one of those I would expect that to add a fair
> > amount to the cost.
> >
> > https://www.ebay.com/itm/291786649807
> >
>

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Fri Feb  2 15:51:57 2018
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 16:51:57 -0500
Subject: Interest Check: Belden Thicknet 10base5 Ethernet Coax
In-Reply-To: <CAKGyVsXMXk_eqQVQ2OUL_h19GztH+TBzDH_xrS3hoxLGXj5uDg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA+dub+p8TWenK9+Uy_jbz3mvpVU3B-FQAjxuhuX8fcenC0Kdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <94c5e46c-c78d-cb4b-5553-24eb5b54e9c3@sydex.com>
 <202d49f6-59e3-2ec5-3f9f-fee1443f008f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAA+dubKqC_JawKzWZYebNsVzFV7aX5gmr7oFrCFGtnNsb72szw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwKUXMOmgrdJZZ5JRjjhwfiekUZkp9wSJ-D=vdjPYbDXVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA+dubL8m4V+eOys7RM=qNWshTJeEcHsQ8jhjVD4x0-HooQBRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKGyVsXMXk_eqQVQ2OUL_h19GztH+TBzDH_xrS3hoxLGXj5uDg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <15C51856-8B6C-4315-821B-8CE6977D057A@comcast.net>



> On Feb 2, 2018, at 4:35 PM, Tony Aiuto via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Interesting. Count me in for 20'. I would want to pick up at VCF east.
> 
> These people have taps, but no transceivers.
> https://www.connectorpeople.com/Connector/TYCO-AMP-TE_CONNECTIVITY/2/228752-1
> 
> Has anyone found the right terminators?

It's simply a good quality 50 ohm terminator, coax type, with a matching connector.  If you use standard 10Base5 conventions, the connectors are Type N male, so you splice pieces together with F-F type N barrel connectors, and you terminate with female type N 50 ohm terminators.  If you can't find female terminators, a male terminator plus a barrel will of course serve.

	paul


From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Fri Feb  2 16:08:07 2018
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 22:08:07 +0000
Subject: Interest Check: Belden Thicknet 10base5 Ethernet Coax
In-Reply-To: <15C51856-8B6C-4315-821B-8CE6977D057A@comcast.net>
References: <CAA+dub+p8TWenK9+Uy_jbz3mvpVU3B-FQAjxuhuX8fcenC0Kdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <94c5e46c-c78d-cb4b-5553-24eb5b54e9c3@sydex.com>
 <202d49f6-59e3-2ec5-3f9f-fee1443f008f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAA+dubKqC_JawKzWZYebNsVzFV7aX5gmr7oFrCFGtnNsb72szw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwKUXMOmgrdJZZ5JRjjhwfiekUZkp9wSJ-D=vdjPYbDXVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA+dubL8m4V+eOys7RM=qNWshTJeEcHsQ8jhjVD4x0-HooQBRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKGyVsXMXk_eqQVQ2OUL_h19GztH+TBzDH_xrS3hoxLGXj5uDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <15C51856-8B6C-4315-821B-8CE6977D057A@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <BN1PR0101MB07545EBBE11116D4A0E09F45EDF90@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>



On 02/02/2018 04:51 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
>
>> On Feb 2, 2018, at 4:35 PM, Tony Aiuto via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> Interesting. Count me in for 20'. I would want to pick up at VCF east.
>>
>> These people have taps, but no transceivers.
>> https://www.connectorpeople.com/Connector/TYCO-AMP-TE_CONNECTIVITY/2/228752-1
>>
>> Has anyone found the right terminators?
> It's simply a good quality 50 ohm terminator, coax type, with a matching connector.  If you use standard 10Base5 conventions, the connectors are Type N male, so you splice pieces together with F-F type N barrel connectors, and you terminate with female type N 50 ohm terminators.  If you can't find female terminators, a male terminator plus a barrel will of course serve.
>
>
If I could remember where the box is I have all the originals for
doing this stuff.? I gave all my vampire taps away long ago but
somewhere in all this junk I still have the hardware.? Just remember,
never ground both ends.? :-)

bill


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Fri Feb  2 16:10:36 2018
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 17:10:36 -0500
Subject: Interest Check: Belden Thicknet 10base5 Ethernet Coax
In-Reply-To: <BN1PR0101MB07545EBBE11116D4A0E09F45EDF90@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <CAA+dub+p8TWenK9+Uy_jbz3mvpVU3B-FQAjxuhuX8fcenC0Kdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <94c5e46c-c78d-cb4b-5553-24eb5b54e9c3@sydex.com>
 <202d49f6-59e3-2ec5-3f9f-fee1443f008f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAA+dubKqC_JawKzWZYebNsVzFV7aX5gmr7oFrCFGtnNsb72szw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwKUXMOmgrdJZZ5JRjjhwfiekUZkp9wSJ-D=vdjPYbDXVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA+dubL8m4V+eOys7RM=qNWshTJeEcHsQ8jhjVD4x0-HooQBRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKGyVsXMXk_eqQVQ2OUL_h19GztH+TBzDH_xrS3hoxLGXj5uDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <15C51856-8B6C-4315-821B-8CE6977D057A@comcast.net>
 <BN1PR0101MB07545EBBE11116D4A0E09F45EDF90@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <098BA170-205C-46BC-AEAB-3512E054DFD7@comcast.net>

On Feb 2, 2018, at 5:08 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> ... Just remember,
> never ground both ends.  :-)

More precisely: ground the cable at exactly one point.  Any point will do, but it must be grounded (because none of the taps provide a ground).

	paul


From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Fri Feb  2 16:22:23 2018
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 15:22:23 -0700
Subject: Interest Check: Belden Thicknet 10base5 Ethernet Coax
In-Reply-To: <098BA170-205C-46BC-AEAB-3512E054DFD7@comcast.net>
References: <CAA+dub+p8TWenK9+Uy_jbz3mvpVU3B-FQAjxuhuX8fcenC0Kdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <94c5e46c-c78d-cb4b-5553-24eb5b54e9c3@sydex.com>
 <202d49f6-59e3-2ec5-3f9f-fee1443f008f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAA+dubKqC_JawKzWZYebNsVzFV7aX5gmr7oFrCFGtnNsb72szw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwKUXMOmgrdJZZ5JRjjhwfiekUZkp9wSJ-D=vdjPYbDXVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA+dubL8m4V+eOys7RM=qNWshTJeEcHsQ8jhjVD4x0-HooQBRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKGyVsXMXk_eqQVQ2OUL_h19GztH+TBzDH_xrS3hoxLGXj5uDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <15C51856-8B6C-4315-821B-8CE6977D057A@comcast.net>
 <BN1PR0101MB07545EBBE11116D4A0E09F45EDF90@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <098BA170-205C-46BC-AEAB-3512E054DFD7@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <bd469f40-58f2-760d-cf35-40d95ab92578@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 02/02/2018 03:10 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
> More precisely: ground the cable at exactly one point.  Any point will 
> do, but it must be grounded (because none of the taps provide a ground).

Why is that?

Is it in an attempt to avoid current loops / sneak current paths?

I thought the outside of BNC connectors (et al) was typically bonded to 
the card edge connector, which is (ideally) bonded to the system 
chassis, which should be grounded either directly or indirectly.

So ? I'm confused.

Will someone please enlighten me?  Please and thank you.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Fri Feb  2 16:50:20 2018
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 17:50:20 -0500
Subject: Interest Check: Belden Thicknet 10base5 Ethernet Coax
In-Reply-To: <bd469f40-58f2-760d-cf35-40d95ab92578@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <CAA+dub+p8TWenK9+Uy_jbz3mvpVU3B-FQAjxuhuX8fcenC0Kdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <94c5e46c-c78d-cb4b-5553-24eb5b54e9c3@sydex.com>
 <202d49f6-59e3-2ec5-3f9f-fee1443f008f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAA+dubKqC_JawKzWZYebNsVzFV7aX5gmr7oFrCFGtnNsb72szw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwKUXMOmgrdJZZ5JRjjhwfiekUZkp9wSJ-D=vdjPYbDXVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA+dubL8m4V+eOys7RM=qNWshTJeEcHsQ8jhjVD4x0-HooQBRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKGyVsXMXk_eqQVQ2OUL_h19GztH+TBzDH_xrS3hoxLGXj5uDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <15C51856-8B6C-4315-821B-8CE6977D057A@comcast.net>
 <BN1PR0101MB07545EBBE11116D4A0E09F45EDF90@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <098BA170-205C-46BC-AEAB-3512E054DFD7@comcast.net>
 <bd469f40-58f2-760d-cf35-40d95ab92578@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <BC64EB3D-8475-4436-A17F-E80747E9FA04@comcast.net>



> On Feb 2, 2018, at 5:22 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On 02/02/2018 03:10 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
>> More precisely: ground the cable at exactly one point.  Any point will do, but it must be grounded (because none of the taps provide a ground).
> 
> Why is that?
> 
> Is it in an attempt to avoid current loops / sneak current paths?

Yes, exactly.  And if the cable crosses between buildings, which at least for 10Base5 is plausible, they might have different ground systems.  If so, grounding both ends might produce a LARGE current through the cable, possibly enough to be hazardous.

(Somewhat different but similar: there's a story about the DEC building at Marlborough, which apparently had two separate power sources at the two ends, from different external supplies.  Each was grounded at the service entry, but the two were not bonded together (a code violation).  One of the machine rooms had branch circuits from both.  One system had a string of large disk drives, RP04 or the like, some fed from one branch, some from the other.  As required by the book, the drives were bonded together by substantial braided wire jumpers.  One of those got hot, possibly enough to melt it, because the two grounds were at different voltages and the "sneak current" was many amps.  I'm not sure if the story is true, but it sounded somewhat plausible.)

> I thought the outside of BNC connectors (et al) was typically bonded to the card edge connector, which is (ideally) bonded to the system chassis, which should be grounded either directly or indirectly.

Many coax connectors have the shell connected to the chassis.  But 10Base2 Ethernet connectors are required to be insulated: if you look closely you will (should) see a plastic sleeve between the jack shell and the mounting flange.  I don't remember for sure, but it may be that 10Base2 repeaters ground that end, or have an option to do so.  That would make sense because you usually have just one repeater on a 10Base2 segment, so grounding there is a logical thing to do.

The requirement for controlling grounding is also why 10Base2 connectors are often made with insulating sleeves.  For example, the ones DEC sold had plastic shells as an integral part of the connector assemblies (T connectors too).   Similarly, you might find plastic shells covering 10Base5 barrel splices or terminators (those were separate from the connectors themselves).

	paul


From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Fri Feb  2 17:06:14 2018
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 18:06:14 -0500
Subject: Interest Check: Belden Thicknet 10base5 Ethernet Coax
In-Reply-To: <CAKGyVsXMXk_eqQVQ2OUL_h19GztH+TBzDH_xrS3hoxLGXj5uDg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA+dub+p8TWenK9+Uy_jbz3mvpVU3B-FQAjxuhuX8fcenC0Kdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <94c5e46c-c78d-cb4b-5553-24eb5b54e9c3@sydex.com>
 <202d49f6-59e3-2ec5-3f9f-fee1443f008f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAA+dubKqC_JawKzWZYebNsVzFV7aX5gmr7oFrCFGtnNsb72szw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwKUXMOmgrdJZZ5JRjjhwfiekUZkp9wSJ-D=vdjPYbDXVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA+dubL8m4V+eOys7RM=qNWshTJeEcHsQ8jhjVD4x0-HooQBRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKGyVsXMXk_eqQVQ2OUL_h19GztH+TBzDH_xrS3hoxLGXj5uDg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimmEgEkm+2FRVDzQpD4gHhKq+u0nXev7LRUJtv-RNnncOA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 4:35 PM, Tony Aiuto via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> Interesting. Count me in for 20'. I would want to pick up at VCF east.
>
> These people have taps, but no transceivers.
> https://www.connectorpeople.com/Connector/TYCO-AMP-TE_CONNECTIVITY/2/228752-1

Handy!  I have several transceivers but only 1-2 taps.  It would be
nice to get some for less than $32, though...

> Has anyone found the right terminators?

I have a small handful of the right terminators, enough for a couple
of segments.  I'm definitely willing to look at a swap.

-ethan

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Fri Feb  2 17:07:11 2018
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 16:07:11 -0700
Subject: Interest Check: Belden Thicknet 10base5 Ethernet Coax
In-Reply-To: <BC64EB3D-8475-4436-A17F-E80747E9FA04@comcast.net>
References: <CAA+dub+p8TWenK9+Uy_jbz3mvpVU3B-FQAjxuhuX8fcenC0Kdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <94c5e46c-c78d-cb4b-5553-24eb5b54e9c3@sydex.com>
 <202d49f6-59e3-2ec5-3f9f-fee1443f008f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAA+dubKqC_JawKzWZYebNsVzFV7aX5gmr7oFrCFGtnNsb72szw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwKUXMOmgrdJZZ5JRjjhwfiekUZkp9wSJ-D=vdjPYbDXVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA+dubL8m4V+eOys7RM=qNWshTJeEcHsQ8jhjVD4x0-HooQBRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKGyVsXMXk_eqQVQ2OUL_h19GztH+TBzDH_xrS3hoxLGXj5uDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <15C51856-8B6C-4315-821B-8CE6977D057A@comcast.net>
 <BN1PR0101MB07545EBBE11116D4A0E09F45EDF90@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <098BA170-205C-46BC-AEAB-3512E054DFD7@comcast.net>
 <bd469f40-58f2-760d-cf35-40d95ab92578@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <BC64EB3D-8475-4436-A17F-E80747E9FA04@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <74135582-e4f5-0f7c-998a-909e61220e6c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 02/02/2018 03:50 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
> Yes, exactly.  And if the cable crosses between buildings, which at least 
> for 10Base5 is plausible, they might have different ground systems. 
> If so, grounding both ends might produce a LARGE current through the 
> cable, possibly enough to be hazardous.

ACK

> (Somewhat different but similar: there's a story about the DEC building 
> at Marlborough, which apparently had two separate power sources at the 
> two ends, from different external supplies.  Each was grounded at the 
> service entry, but the two were not bonded together (a code violation). 
> One of the machine rooms had branch circuits from both.  One system had a 
> string of large disk drives, RP04 or the like, some fed from one branch, 
> some from the other.  As required by the book, the drives were bonded 
> together by substantial braided wire jumpers.  One of those got hot, 
> possibly enough to melt it, because the two grounds were at different 
> voltages and the "sneak current" was many amps.  I'm not sure if the 
> story is true, but it sounded somewhat plausible.)

I've heard similar stories about single power sources with bad 
insulations or near large magnetic fields inducing voltages which would 
alter references.  Frequently things would float too far one way or the 
other, causing sneak current, and frying ports.

That's one of the reasons that I like to use optical connections between 
buildings and / or electrically noisy environments.

> Many coax connectors have the shell connected to the chassis.  But 10Base2 
> Ethernet connectors are required to be insulated: if you look closely 
> you will (should) see a plastic sleeve between the jack shell and the 
> mounting flange.  I don't remember for sure, but it may be that 10Base2 
> repeaters ground that end, or have an option to do so.  That would make 
> sense because you usually have just one repeater on a 10Base2 segment, 
> so grounding there is a logical thing to do.

Now that you say something, I do recall seeing that.

I also recall seeing BNC terminators with a short ball chain with a 
screw loop on the end to ground the segment at /one/ end.

> The requirement for controlling grounding is also why 10Base2 connectors 
> are often made with insulating sleeves.  For example, the ones DEC sold 
> had plastic shells as an integral part of the connector assemblies (T 
> connectors too).   Similarly, you might find plastic shells covering 
> 10Base5 barrel splices or terminators (those were separate from the 
> connectors themselves).

I was not aware that there was an insulator around the connectors to 
avoid grounding in undesired locations.

I guess that 10Base2 should only have T connectors at the cards and all 
of the coax in between would be shielded.  Thus the entire length would 
be isolated, safe for the ground point, along the entire run, if 
properly installed and nothing grounded the terminators unexpectedly.

Thank you for the clarification Paul.  :-)



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Fri Feb  2 17:12:19 2018
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 18:12:19 -0500
Subject: Interest Check: Belden Thicknet 10base5 Ethernet Coax
In-Reply-To: <CAA+dubKqC_JawKzWZYebNsVzFV7aX5gmr7oFrCFGtnNsb72szw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA+dub+p8TWenK9+Uy_jbz3mvpVU3B-FQAjxuhuX8fcenC0Kdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <94c5e46c-c78d-cb4b-5553-24eb5b54e9c3@sydex.com>
 <202d49f6-59e3-2ec5-3f9f-fee1443f008f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAA+dubKqC_JawKzWZYebNsVzFV7aX5gmr7oFrCFGtnNsb72szw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimmzMu-Aei0EHJxi3_AtZPXZ=puS-=MKic=1+JSJ3G0KcQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 7:06 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> Full disclosure on price: right now if I buy one spool, it'll be $0.60/foot
> to me, I was thinking I'd charge $1/foot for moderate lengths, of course
> I'm willing to make a deal on bulk purchases, especially if it ends up
> being local pick-up (here in VA or VCF East).
.
I plan to be at VCF East (although mid-May makes it more difficult to
block out for me than usual).  I'd be up for a number of feet - enough
for maybe 3-5 stations?  I would want to know the cost of adding the N
connectors, but I'd probably take them installed.

I currently have about 10-15 feet of the yellow with black stripes
variety, barely enough to demonstrate it.

-ethan

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri Feb  2 17:13:56 2018
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 15:13:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Tangent: Interest Check: Belden Thicknet 10base5 Ethernet Coax
In-Reply-To: <74135582-e4f5-0f7c-998a-909e61220e6c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <CAA+dub+p8TWenK9+Uy_jbz3mvpVU3B-FQAjxuhuX8fcenC0Kdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <94c5e46c-c78d-cb4b-5553-24eb5b54e9c3@sydex.com>
 <202d49f6-59e3-2ec5-3f9f-fee1443f008f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAA+dubKqC_JawKzWZYebNsVzFV7aX5gmr7oFrCFGtnNsb72szw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwKUXMOmgrdJZZ5JRjjhwfiekUZkp9wSJ-D=vdjPYbDXVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA+dubL8m4V+eOys7RM=qNWshTJeEcHsQ8jhjVD4x0-HooQBRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKGyVsXMXk_eqQVQ2OUL_h19GztH+TBzDH_xrS3hoxLGXj5uDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <15C51856-8B6C-4315-821B-8CE6977D057A@comcast.net>
 <BN1PR0101MB07545EBBE11116D4A0E09F45EDF90@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <098BA170-205C-46BC-AEAB-3512E054DFD7@comcast.net>
 <bd469f40-58f2-760d-cf35-40d95ab92578@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <BC64EB3D-8475-4436-A17F-E80747E9FA04@comcast.net>
 <74135582-e4f5-0f7c-998a-909e61220e6c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802021511490.22570@shell.lmi.net>

> they might have different ground 
> systems. If so, grounding both ends might produce a LARGE current 
> through the cable, possibly enough to be hazardous.

OB_Ignorant_Question:  Is that the reason why RS232 DB25 has both pin 1 
and pin 7?

From phb.hfx at gmail.com  Fri Feb  2 18:26:15 2018
From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 20:26:15 -0400
Subject: Tangent: Interest Check: Belden Thicknet 10base5 Ethernet Coax
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802021511490.22570@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CAA+dub+p8TWenK9+Uy_jbz3mvpVU3B-FQAjxuhuX8fcenC0Kdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <94c5e46c-c78d-cb4b-5553-24eb5b54e9c3@sydex.com>
 <202d49f6-59e3-2ec5-3f9f-fee1443f008f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAA+dubKqC_JawKzWZYebNsVzFV7aX5gmr7oFrCFGtnNsb72szw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwKUXMOmgrdJZZ5JRjjhwfiekUZkp9wSJ-D=vdjPYbDXVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA+dubL8m4V+eOys7RM=qNWshTJeEcHsQ8jhjVD4x0-HooQBRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKGyVsXMXk_eqQVQ2OUL_h19GztH+TBzDH_xrS3hoxLGXj5uDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <15C51856-8B6C-4315-821B-8CE6977D057A@comcast.net>
 <BN1PR0101MB07545EBBE11116D4A0E09F45EDF90@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <098BA170-205C-46BC-AEAB-3512E054DFD7@comcast.net>
 <bd469f40-58f2-760d-cf35-40d95ab92578@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <BC64EB3D-8475-4436-A17F-E80747E9FA04@comcast.net>
 <74135582-e4f5-0f7c-998a-909e61220e6c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802021511490.22570@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <724c6fe2-69f6-109c-4a86-583dfb5e6ddc@gmail.com>



On 2018-02-02 7:13 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>> they might have different ground systems. If so, grounding both ends 
>> might produce a LARGE current through the cable, possibly enough to 
>> be hazardous.
>
> OB_Ignorant_Question:? Is that the reason why RS232 DB25 has both pin 
> 1 and pin 7?
Pin 1 is supposed to be protective (shield) ground and pin 7? is signal 
ground.

Paul.

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb  2 18:33:55 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 16:33:55 -0800
Subject: Tangent: Interest Check: Belden Thicknet 10base5 Ethernet Coax
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802021511490.22570@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CAA+dub+p8TWenK9+Uy_jbz3mvpVU3B-FQAjxuhuX8fcenC0Kdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <94c5e46c-c78d-cb4b-5553-24eb5b54e9c3@sydex.com>
 <202d49f6-59e3-2ec5-3f9f-fee1443f008f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAA+dubKqC_JawKzWZYebNsVzFV7aX5gmr7oFrCFGtnNsb72szw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwKUXMOmgrdJZZ5JRjjhwfiekUZkp9wSJ-D=vdjPYbDXVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA+dubL8m4V+eOys7RM=qNWshTJeEcHsQ8jhjVD4x0-HooQBRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKGyVsXMXk_eqQVQ2OUL_h19GztH+TBzDH_xrS3hoxLGXj5uDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <15C51856-8B6C-4315-821B-8CE6977D057A@comcast.net>
 <BN1PR0101MB07545EBBE11116D4A0E09F45EDF90@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <098BA170-205C-46BC-AEAB-3512E054DFD7@comcast.net>
 <bd469f40-58f2-760d-cf35-40d95ab92578@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <BC64EB3D-8475-4436-A17F-E80747E9FA04@comcast.net>
 <74135582-e4f5-0f7c-998a-909e61220e6c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802021511490.22570@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <7df7e188-ea16-883d-ddf5-d97c608fa808@sydex.com>

On 02/02/2018 03:13 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>> they might have different ground systems. If so, grounding both ends
>> might produce a LARGE current through the cable, possibly enough to be
>> hazardous.
> 
> OB_Ignorant_Question:? Is that the reason why RS232 DB25 has both pin 1
> and pin 7?
> 

I don't think so--pin 1 is basically a "protective ground", where pin 7
is a "signal ground".

Consider an ordinary telco subscriber line.  2 wires, but there's also
some sort of carbon block surge arrestor connected to an earthed ground
at the subscriber's site.  It may be connected to the AC protective
ground (i.e. third prong in an outlet) or it may be separate.

In my home, it was a wire attached to a copper rod driven into the
earth.  After a tree was uprooted and the cable unearthed, I notified my
telco about it, was issued a service ticket--and nothing happened.  I
coiled up the ground wire neatly and buried it.  It probably doesn't
matter because my telephone line is buried its entire length back to the RT.

It used to be that this wire was connected to the finger stop on old
dial telephones.

In any case, it isn't a signal conductor.

--Chuck

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Fri Feb  2 18:54:38 2018
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 19:54:38 -0500
Subject: Tangent: Interest Check: Belden Thicknet 10base5 Ethernet Coax
In-Reply-To: <724c6fe2-69f6-109c-4a86-583dfb5e6ddc@gmail.com>
References: <CAA+dub+p8TWenK9+Uy_jbz3mvpVU3B-FQAjxuhuX8fcenC0Kdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <94c5e46c-c78d-cb4b-5553-24eb5b54e9c3@sydex.com>
 <202d49f6-59e3-2ec5-3f9f-fee1443f008f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAA+dubKqC_JawKzWZYebNsVzFV7aX5gmr7oFrCFGtnNsb72szw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwKUXMOmgrdJZZ5JRjjhwfiekUZkp9wSJ-D=vdjPYbDXVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA+dubL8m4V+eOys7RM=qNWshTJeEcHsQ8jhjVD4x0-HooQBRQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKGyVsXMXk_eqQVQ2OUL_h19GztH+TBzDH_xrS3hoxLGXj5uDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <15C51856-8B6C-4315-821B-8CE6977D057A@comcast.net>
 <BN1PR0101MB07545EBBE11116D4A0E09F45EDF90@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <098BA170-205C-46BC-AEAB-3512E054DFD7@comcast.net>
 <bd469f40-58f2-760d-cf35-40d95ab92578@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <BC64EB3D-8475-4436-A17F-E80747E9FA04@comcast.net>
 <74135582-e4f5-0f7c-998a-909e61220e6c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802021511490.22570@shell.lmi.net>
 <724c6fe2-69f6-109c-4a86-583dfb5e6ddc@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <746650A4-F82F-4C89-807D-D0B4CF5FFE3E@comcast.net>



> On Feb 2, 2018, at 7:26 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 2018-02-02 7:13 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>>> they might have different ground systems. If so, grounding both ends might produce a LARGE current through the cable, possibly enough to be hazardous.
>> 
>> OB_Ignorant_Question:  Is that the reason why RS232 DB25 has both pin 1 and pin 7?
> Pin 1 is supposed to be protective (shield) ground and pin 7  is signal ground.
> 
> Paul.

Similar to safety ground (green) and neutral (white, in the USA) on power wiring.

	paul


From mtapley at swri.edu  Fri Feb  2 19:26:25 2018
From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 01:26:25 +0000
Subject: Password reset for ~1998 AIX on RS/6000?
In-Reply-To: <CAHQ+QWAAN-OqQGGdpTcbGSkCNB_f_ExJboq1+Ztb=eurBiSeuQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <92b4de6a-b537-4bfb-a1fd-1ebe8133f11a@comcast.net>
 <094b01d39b87$f01255a0$d03700e0$@gmail.com>
 <9988690B-CAB3-4784-8AE6-24CA91726725@swri.edu>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011530520.26349@users.757.org>
 <2412D016-17CC-4541-94B4-859A255A14C4@swri.edu>
 <47A524B6-26BF-487F-AA75-256C80C6711D@typewritten.org>
 <CAHQ+QWAAN-OqQGGdpTcbGSkCNB_f_ExJboq1+Ztb=eurBiSeuQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2531A34B-BAEC-4DFD-9CE3-7251A1236135@swri.edu>

On Feb 2, 2018, at 2:49 PM, Ian Finder via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I had this experience with a Tadpole N40, running AIX 3.
> 
> I simply DD'ed the drive, took the image...
> $ strings aix-machine.img | grep root:
> ...to get the password line.
> 
> Dump that into a passwd file and run john (the password cracker utility) on
> it for a couple days.
> 
> I don't think Linux can mount the early AIX filesystems directly.
> 
> On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 8:24 PM, r.stricklin via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On Feb 1, 2018, at 7:28 PM, Tapley, Mark via cctech wrote:
>> 
>>>> Image the hard drive off to a raw file using a linux host with a SCSI
>> HBA?
>>>> 
>>>> Once that is done, it might be possible to run a hex editor against the
>> hard drive (one that doesn't copy the contents into RAM) and then search
>> for the password file. From there you can copy the des hash and use rainbow
>> tables / wordfiles to crack it or replace it with a known DES hash?
>> 
>> You don't need to do any of these things.
>> 
>>> Update, I did locate a CD saying ?AIX V4.2.1 for 5765-C34? and this URL:
>> 
>> All you need is this disk. You can boot it, and use it to start a
>> maintenance shell, from which you can mount the root filesystem and edit
>> the password file(s) directly. The procedure you found will get you there,
>> easily.
>> 
>> ok
>> bear.
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> until further notice
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
>   Ian Finder
>   (206) 395-MIPS
>   ian.finder at gmail.com

All,
	thanks most kindly to all! It is rare in this hobby that I can report that things went perfectly the first time, but this is one of those times. I have reset the root password and logged in successfully, and the machine appears to be responding nominally. I believe I will be using that machine to push command databases for the re-animated IMAGE spacecraft up the wire to Goddard Space Flight Center starting Monday morning. 
	To recap, the system is a Risc System 6000 43P-140 running AIX 4 (possibly 4.1; I will amplify if anyone cares). The CD described above and this website 

http://www-01.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?uid=isg3T1000366

did the trick perfectly. This is a PCI based PowerPC machine. I did need to obtain an IBMid to read the web page completely. 

	I have a SCSI2SD which I will probably use as a target for dd, following the suggestion to back up the hard drive. Hopefully i have time enough to do my homework to configure that, but as before any pointers will be welcome. 
	Again, many thanks for your help!
									- Mark


From mtapley at swri.edu  Fri Feb  2 19:26:25 2018
From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 01:26:25 +0000
Subject: Password reset for ~1998 AIX on RS/6000?
In-Reply-To: <CAHQ+QWAAN-OqQGGdpTcbGSkCNB_f_ExJboq1+Ztb=eurBiSeuQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <92b4de6a-b537-4bfb-a1fd-1ebe8133f11a@comcast.net>
 <094b01d39b87$f01255a0$d03700e0$@gmail.com>
 <9988690B-CAB3-4784-8AE6-24CA91726725@swri.edu>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011530520.26349@users.757.org>
 <2412D016-17CC-4541-94B4-859A255A14C4@swri.edu>
 <47A524B6-26BF-487F-AA75-256C80C6711D@typewritten.org>
 <CAHQ+QWAAN-OqQGGdpTcbGSkCNB_f_ExJboq1+Ztb=eurBiSeuQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2531A34B-BAEC-4DFD-9CE3-7251A1236135@swri.edu>

On Feb 2, 2018, at 2:49 PM, Ian Finder via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I had this experience with a Tadpole N40, running AIX 3.
> 
> I simply DD'ed the drive, took the image...
> $ strings aix-machine.img | grep root:
> ...to get the password line.
> 
> Dump that into a passwd file and run john (the password cracker utility) on
> it for a couple days.
> 
> I don't think Linux can mount the early AIX filesystems directly.
> 
> On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 8:24 PM, r.stricklin via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On Feb 1, 2018, at 7:28 PM, Tapley, Mark via cctech wrote:
>> 
>>>> Image the hard drive off to a raw file using a linux host with a SCSI
>> HBA?
>>>> 
>>>> Once that is done, it might be possible to run a hex editor against the
>> hard drive (one that doesn't copy the contents into RAM) and then search
>> for the password file. From there you can copy the des hash and use rainbow
>> tables / wordfiles to crack it or replace it with a known DES hash?
>> 
>> You don't need to do any of these things.
>> 
>>> Update, I did locate a CD saying ?AIX V4.2.1 for 5765-C34? and this URL:
>> 
>> All you need is this disk. You can boot it, and use it to start a
>> maintenance shell, from which you can mount the root filesystem and edit
>> the password file(s) directly. The procedure you found will get you there,
>> easily.
>> 
>> ok
>> bear.
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> until further notice
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
>   Ian Finder
>   (206) 395-MIPS
>   ian.finder at gmail.com

All,
	thanks most kindly to all! It is rare in this hobby that I can report that things went perfectly the first time, but this is one of those times. I have reset the root password and logged in successfully, and the machine appears to be responding nominally. I believe I will be using that machine to push command databases for the re-animated IMAGE spacecraft up the wire to Goddard Space Flight Center starting Monday morning. 
	To recap, the system is a Risc System 6000 43P-140 running AIX 4 (possibly 4.1; I will amplify if anyone cares). The CD described above and this website 

http://www-01.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?uid=isg3T1000366

did the trick perfectly. This is a PCI based PowerPC machine. I did need to obtain an IBMid to read the web page completely. 

	I have a SCSI2SD which I will probably use as a target for dd, following the suggestion to back up the hard drive. Hopefully i have time enough to do my homework to configure that, but as before any pointers will be welcome. 
	Again, many thanks for your help!
									- Mark


From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Fri Feb  2 22:43:34 2018
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 21:43:34 -0700
Subject: Password reset for ~1998 AIX on RS/6000?
In-Reply-To: <2531A34B-BAEC-4DFD-9CE3-7251A1236135@swri.edu>
References: <92b4de6a-b537-4bfb-a1fd-1ebe8133f11a@comcast.net>
 <094b01d39b87$f01255a0$d03700e0$@gmail.com>
 <9988690B-CAB3-4784-8AE6-24CA91726725@swri.edu>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011530520.26349@users.757.org>
 <2412D016-17CC-4541-94B4-859A255A14C4@swri.edu>
 <47A524B6-26BF-487F-AA75-256C80C6711D@typewritten.org>
 <CAHQ+QWAAN-OqQGGdpTcbGSkCNB_f_ExJboq1+Ztb=eurBiSeuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2531A34B-BAEC-4DFD-9CE3-7251A1236135@swri.edu>
Message-ID: <c4ca92df-73ed-3088-90da-1155c6c8caba@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 02/02/2018 06:26 PM, Tapley, Mark via cctalk wrote:
> thanks most kindly to all! It is rare in this hobby that I can report 
> that things went perfectly the first time, but this is one of those 
> times. I have reset the root password and logged in successfully, and the 
> machine appears to be responding nominally. I believe I will be using that 
> machine to push command databases for the re-animated IMAGE spacecraft 
> up the wire to Goddard Space Flight Center starting Monday morning.

Nicely done.

> To recap, the system is a Risc System 6000 43P-140 running AIX 4 
> (possibly 4.1; I will amplify if anyone cares). The CD described above 
> and this website
> 
> http://www-01.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?uid=isg3T1000366
> 
> did the trick perfectly. This is a PCI based PowerPC machine. I did need 
> to obtain an IBMid to read the web page completely.

Thank you for the confirmation.

> I have a SCSI2SD which I will probably use as a target for dd, following 
> the suggestion to back up the hard drive. Hopefully i have time enough 
> to do my homework to configure that, but as before any pointers will 
> be welcome.

If you're not familiar with AIX (or that version there of), I'd suggest 
you check to see if smit or smitty commands exist.  (I don't know what 
version they were introduced.

IMHO smit(ty) is one of the EXTREMELY nice things about AIX.  smit(ty) 
is a menu driven interface for managing the vast majority of things on 
AIX.  One of the really nice things about smit(ty) is that it will 
provide menu panes / forms that you enter information which smit(ty) 
uses to dynamically build the standard commands to administer the 
system.  You can easily (as in hit a listed function key) get smit(ty) 
to show you said commands so that you can easily learn them and execute 
them directly from the command line.

Note:  smit will try to launch a menu in GUI and fall back to text mode. 
  smitty will always launch the text mode.  (You mentioned a GUI.)

> Again, many thanks for your help!

You're welcome.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sat Feb  3 06:55:53 2018
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sat,  3 Feb 2018 07:55:53 -0500 (EST)
Subject: MACSYMA classic
Message-ID: <20180203125553.5CCB918C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Lars Brinkhoff

    > notes on his progress are here:
    > https://github.com/PDP-10/its/issues/284

Ah, that sounds pretty good. The ability to re-create source, given the FASL,
will really help.

    > In 1982 MIT licensed Macsyma to Symbolics, but also made it available
    > to the US Department of Energy. 

I wasn't involved with this, but my recollection from dribs and drabs I
overheard was that DoE got a copy because they'd been the funding agency for
a lot of the work - i.e. MIT didn't just give a copy to DoE, it was a
requirement.

	Noel

From dougatdoughq at gmail.com  Fri Feb  2 15:10:12 2018
From: dougatdoughq at gmail.com (Doug Jackson)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 08:10:12 +1100
Subject: Password reset for ~1998 AIX on RS/6000?
In-Reply-To: <CAHQ+QWAAN-OqQGGdpTcbGSkCNB_f_ExJboq1+Ztb=eurBiSeuQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <92b4de6a-b537-4bfb-a1fd-1ebe8133f11a@comcast.net>
 <094b01d39b87$f01255a0$d03700e0$@gmail.com>
 <9988690B-CAB3-4784-8AE6-24CA91726725@swri.edu>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802011530520.26349@users.757.org>
 <2412D016-17CC-4541-94B4-859A255A14C4@swri.edu>
 <47A524B6-26BF-487F-AA75-256C80C6711D@typewritten.org>
 <CAHQ+QWAAN-OqQGGdpTcbGSkCNB_f_ExJboq1+Ztb=eurBiSeuQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM_9E60fPvtvs2bsH4DT1VqR1EXUYtJpK-YKY9h5jp9+JsC5rQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi...

>From memory there were a number of remote exploits against AIX 4.x.x

The most simple were against ftpd.

A quick search found this..

https://www.exploit-db.com/exploits/14409/.   This extracts the root user
hash.


Of course if you have local access there is the rlogin vulnerability
against some versions that allowed a normal user to have root privileges
with a trivial command line such as rlogin -l.  But my memory is foggy
there.

Should be a fun task.  One of the nice things about old operating systems
is that there security is pretty well non existent as.things that were zero
days in the 90s are well known now.

Doug




On 3 Feb. 2018 7:49 am, "Ian Finder via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> I had this experience with a Tadpole N40, running AIX 3.
>
> I simply DD'ed the drive, took the image...
> $ strings aix-machine.img | grep root:
> ...to get the password line.
>
> Dump that into a passwd file and run john (the password cracker utility) on
> it for a couple days.
>
> I don't think Linux can mount the early AIX filesystems directly.
>
> On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 8:24 PM, r.stricklin via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> >
> > On Feb 1, 2018, at 7:28 PM, Tapley, Mark via cctech wrote:
> >
> > >> Image the hard drive off to a raw file using a linux host with a SCSI
> > HBA?
> > >>
> > >> Once that is done, it might be possible to run a hex editor against
> the
> > hard drive (one that doesn't copy the contents into RAM) and then search
> > for the password file. From there you can copy the des hash and use
> rainbow
> > tables / wordfiles to crack it or replace it with a known DES hash?
> >
> > You don't need to do any of these things.
> >
> > > Update, I did locate a CD saying ?AIX V4.2.1 for 5765-C34? and this
> URL:
> >
> > All you need is this disk. You can boot it, and use it to start a
> > maintenance shell, from which you can mount the root filesystem and edit
> > the password file(s) directly. The procedure you found will get you
> there,
> > easily.
> >
> > ok
> > bear.
> >
> >
> > --
> > until further notice
> >
> >
>
>
> --
>    Ian Finder
>    (206) 395-MIPS
>    ian.finder at gmail.com
>

From Wayne.Sudol at hotmail.com  Fri Feb  2 15:16:44 2018
From: Wayne.Sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne S)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 21:16:44 +0000
Subject: VMS 8.4 Alpha Hobbyist disk images
In-Reply-To: <CABp7FHVyARKDJChj9WG-OOTuV5DBtRxUdYvtUrem7+n9sXNCUQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <000401d39c61$6a2e0d00$3e8a2700$@co.uk>,
 <CABp7FHVyARKDJChj9WG-OOTuV5DBtRxUdYvtUrem7+n9sXNCUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR0101MB3038F07566460B0705C3FA5BE4F90@MWHPR0101MB3038.prod.exchangelabs.com>

Notice: Downloaded this from the link and Norton says it is a virus. PUA.InstallCore


Sent from Outlook<http://aka.ms/weboutlook>


________________________________
From: cctech <cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Mark Wickens via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, February 2, 2018 12:11 PM
To: Robert Adamson; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: VMS 8.4 Alpha Hobbyist disk images

https://cdburnerxp.se/en/home

CDBurnerXP is the one to use - as recommended by Stephen Hoffman himself.

Mark.

On 2 February 2018 at 20:07, Robert Adamson via cctech <
cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> > Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 12:55:41 -0500
> > From: Douglas Taylor <dj.taylor4 at comcast.net>
> > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" <cctech at classiccmp.org>
> > Subject: VMS 8.4 Alpha Hobbyist disk images
> > Message-ID: <92b4de6a-b537-4bfb-a1fd-1ebe8133f11a at comcast.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
> >
> > I'm getting an Alphaserver 1000a and wanted to install VMS 8.4 -
> > hobbyist license from CD.
> >
> > So, I went to the folder on my PC where I have the 8.4 hobbyist
> > distribution.? There are 3 ISO files; ALPHA084, ALPHA084LP1 and
> > ALPHA084LP2.
> >
> > I thought I would burn these to CD and up and away.? However, Windows 7
> > balks and says, 'The selected disc image file isn't valid'.
> >
> > Is it Windows 7 or is there something I'm missing?? Is the CD on the
> > Alphaserver 2048 byte block size or 512?
> >
> > Doug
>
> They _are_ 'ISO' images but in a format which Windows 7 or whatever burning
> program you're using doesn't understand.
> I used Nero (or Daemon I think)  to write CDs for my VAX but there will be
> plenty of other programs equally suitable.
> You don't need to do anything special, just treat them as an ISO image and
> let the burning software get on with it.
> Once written, Windows won't be able to read them so don't panic. If the
> burning software includes verification then it (not Windows) will be able
> to
> read them back OK.
>
> (I'm using VMS v7.3 but I'm sure this is no different).
>
> Generally AFAIK the CD readers on Vaxes (Vaxen - ugh!!) and Alphas will
> deliver 512 byte blocks but this isn't relevant for the image itself.
>
> Bob
>
>
>

From hp-fix at xs4all.nl  Fri Feb  2 16:07:42 2018
From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 23:07:42 +0100
Subject: Data IO 29B / Unipak 2B adapter?
In-Reply-To: <CABr82SJxyLukMRd7K8SYLNquQSeSN0osb_L_JG+3yYrgA-MiNA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABr82SJxyLukMRd7K8SYLNquQSeSN0osb_L_JG+3yYrgA-MiNA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <003401d39c72$401e51d0$c05af570$@xs4all.nl>

Mattis,

I have one, want to keep it.
But if you send me the proms I'll read them for you.

-Rik

> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Mattis Lind
> via cctech
> Verzonden: woensdag 31 januari 2018 22:01
> Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Onderwerp: Data IO 29B / Unipak 2B adapter?
> 
> I need to read a couple of Signetics 82S215 bipolar PROMs with my old Data
> IO 29B / Unipak 2B. But it needs a 351B-068 adapter.
> 
> Does anyone has information regarding this adapter?
> 
> I did find an old post in DATA_IO_EPROM at groups.io mailinglist that a man
> named Alfred Marin had boards. I even found his email but it bounced.
> 
> Any other pointers in this subject?
> 
> /Mattis


From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net  Fri Feb  2 18:29:15 2018
From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 19:29:15 -0500
Subject: VMS 8.4 Alpha Hobbyist disk images
In-Reply-To: <92b4de6a-b537-4bfb-a1fd-1ebe8133f11a@comcast.net>
References: <92b4de6a-b537-4bfb-a1fd-1ebe8133f11a@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4f8e8cfd-26b7-ed0e-af07-1967660e6702@comcast.net>

On 2/1/2018 12:55 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote:
> I'm getting an Alphaserver 1000a and wanted to install VMS 8.4 - 
> hobbyist license from CD.
>
> So, I went to the folder on my PC where I have the 8.4 hobbyist 
> distribution.? There are 3 ISO files; ALPHA084, ALPHA084LP1 and 
> ALPHA084LP2.
>
> I thought I would burn these to CD and up and away.? However, Windows 
> 7 balks and says, 'The selected disc image file isn't valid'.
>
> Is it Windows 7 or is there something I'm missing?? Is the CD on the 
> Alphaserver 2048 byte block size or 512?
>
> Doug
>
>
An update to this.

I picked up the Alphaserver today, powered up fine.? I reset the system 
password so I could log in.

It is running OpenVMS 7.1 and has 7 disks in the Storageworks box.

When I log in only the boot disk shows up from the $ show dev command.? 
Nothing else, no CD, no tape which are all there.

On powerup it shows:

bus 2 slot 0 pka Qlogic ISP10x0

bus 2 slot 1 ewa DecChip 21040-AA

bus 2 slot 2 pua DEC KFPSA

bus 0 slot 11 dra Mylex DAC960

bus 0 slot 12 drb Mylex DAC960

bus 3 slot 0 pkb Qlogic ISP10x0

I think 4 of the storageworks disks are in a Raid in the storageworks 
(DRB).? The DRA raid must have been external since on startup it spends 
time waiting for it and finally gives up.

In console mode:

 >>> show dev

DKA400 RRD45

DKB400 RZ28

DKB500 RZ29

DKB600 RZ29

DRA0 4 member RAID 5

DRA1 1 member JBOD

DRB0 4 member RAID 5

DVA0

MKA500 TLZ07

EWA0??? mac address

PKA0 SCSI bus

PKB0 SCSI bus

PIA0 DSSI Bus ID 3

My desire is to setup this machine and use it, however, I don't want to 
undo things I can't put back together again.? Any thoughts or advice?

Doug




From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com  Fri Feb  2 18:55:35 2018
From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 00:55:35 +0000
Subject: VMS 8.4 Alpha Hobbyist disk images
In-Reply-To: <4f8e8cfd-26b7-ed0e-af07-1967660e6702@comcast.net>
References: <92b4de6a-b537-4bfb-a1fd-1ebe8133f11a@comcast.net>
 <4f8e8cfd-26b7-ed0e-af07-1967660e6702@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <ACC1E06C-0706-4451-8F2C-06C2AB4867CA@gmail.com>

> An update to this.
> 
> I picked up the Alphaserver today, powered up fine.  I reset the system password so I could log in.
> 
> It is running OpenVMS 7.1 and has 7 disks in the Storageworks box.
> 
> When I log in only the boot disk shows up from the $ show dev command.  Nothing else, no CD, no tape which are all there.
> 
> On powerup it shows:
> 
> bus 2 slot 0 pka Qlogic ISP10x0
> bus 2 slot 1 ewa DecChip 21040-AA
> bus 2 slot 2 pua DEC KFPSA
> bus 0 slot 11 dra Mylex DAC960
> bus 0 slot 12 drb Mylex DAC960
> bus 3 slot 0 pkb Qlogic ISP10x0

You?ve got a KZP*A, DE500, DSSI, pair of KZPAC (probably) and another KZP*A

> I think 4 of the storageworks disks are in a Raid in the storageworks (DRB).  The DRA raid must have been external since on startup it spends time waiting for it and finally gives up.

I?d pull whichever KZPAC isn?t connected to anything any more along with the KFPSA which will speed up INIT if nothing else.

> In console mode:
> 
> >>> show dev
> DKA400 RRD45
> DKB400 RZ28
> DKB500 RZ29
> DKB600 RZ29
> DRA0 4 member RAID 5
> DRA1 1 member JBOD
> DRB0 4 member RAID 5
> DVA0
> MKA500 TLZ07
> EWA0    mac address
> PKA0 SCSI bus
> PKB0 SCSI bus
> PIA0 DSSI Bus ID 3

The first KZP*A has the CDROM and tape drive so that?s probably a KZPAA (Qlogic QLA1040), the internal disk shelf must be split bus if you?ve got 7 drives in there, 3 on the 2nd KZPAA (or BA) and 4 on the KZPAC.

> My desire is to setup this machine and use it, however, I don't want to undo things I can't put back together again.  Any thoughts or advice?

See above :) Take out boards that aren?t connected to anything. I assume you?re doing a MINIMUM boot which would explain the lack of devices when you log in?

Pictures may help too.

Cheers,

?
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs - Celebrating Computing History from 1972 onwards
w: binarydinosaurs.co.uk t: @binarydinosaurs
f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs


From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Sat Feb  3 10:35:41 2018
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 16:35:41 +0000
Subject: SUN AUDIO BREAKOUT BOX CABLE 530-1594-01
In-Reply-To: <DM5PR14MB16123FE8F138D8C19A14B43BB6F90@DM5PR14MB1612.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
References: <DM5PR14MB16120EDEC1376140D48FC87DB6F90@DM5PR14MB1612.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <DM5PR14MB1612CBD16F4E01C320B6BF9DB6F90@DM5PR14MB1612.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <BCE79375-A7EE-4212-A22C-6A0E40F4A41F@gmail.com>
 <DM5PR14MB1612126CD01AB5FACE2E7AC1B6F90@DM5PR14MB1612.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <06242C7E-0DCB-424B-ADED-E76697F77230@pobox.com>
 <DM5PR14MB161234196845852BE1A7A30CB6F90@DM5PR14MB1612.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <448964B8-517D-4E1C-99D4-1349556B120C@gmail.com>
 <CAA6uQZSZT_KTcO7aWPLA2dJ+-oE_mxiUWXVedHDNJ1rPWHdh0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <6DD39794-83B6-4DC6-BC07-67EFF483A4B2@gmail.com>
 <DM5PR14MB16123FE8F138D8C19A14B43BB6F90@DM5PR14MB1612.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <BN1PR0101MB07546907708A66632723E9F6EDF80@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>


Any Sparc aficionados out there?? I have one of these available.
make an offer (+ postage).

bill


From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Sat Feb  3 11:49:57 2018
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 18:49:57 +0100
Subject: Help identify "multichip module"
Message-ID: <20180203174957.GE1424@Update.UU.SE>

Hi

I got this picture sent to me with zero context. Does anyone recognize 
what it is?

http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/identify/mystery_chips.jpeg

Thank you,
Pontus.

From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Sat Feb  3 13:51:53 2018
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 20:51:53 +0100
Subject: Help identify "multichip module"
In-Reply-To: <20180203174957.GE1424@Update.UU.SE>
References: <20180203174957.GE1424@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <20180203195152.GF1424@Update.UU.SE>

Hi

I got some more, high res (and large size), pictures:

http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/identify/DSC_0394.JPG
http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/identify/DSC_0395.JPG
http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/identify/DSC_0396.JPG
http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/identify/DSC_0393.JPG

Thank you,
Pontus.

On Sat, Feb 03, 2018 at 06:49:57PM +0100, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk wrote:
> Hi
> 
> I got this picture sent to me with zero context. Does anyone recognize 
> what it is?
> 
> http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/identify/mystery_chips.jpeg
> 
> Thank you,
> Pontus.

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Sat Feb  3 14:38:29 2018
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 20:38:29 +0000
Subject: RX02 problem
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwKFWGQCjWn7SZE4fBZ=oTRHpOHnVXZpHj4gY6MqDXbpHw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a58ddf66-14a8-3161-7053-c6d143d294b4@jwsss.com>
 <CAM2UOwLFaXoG9wYL7v=QKLOWbxK_ay5E8BhNStxSj15aU1VX6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAq7DHr+JVVCjzOGTAukupHD9K9EP6h+W2H7GoJmO6+7VcgWDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwLTNsLuTASOEmU-oi4NboHnAV=U-NyMpG4rt3yK4=mhkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwKFWGQCjWn7SZE4fBZ=oTRHpOHnVXZpHj4gY6MqDXbpHw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BN1PR0101MB075480CE883DE90E7FBFAB39EDF80@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>


Do we have any real RX02 experts?? My long time running

RX02 seems to have decided to go on strike.? When I try to

access it now it repeatedly loads and unloads the heads but

never reads anything.? I can usually break out of it with

control-C.? Attempts to boot from it have the same effect.


Anybody else ever see this behavior?


Oh yeah, I know the controllers are good as I also have an

AK6DN emulator and it works (well up to a point, but that's

a problem for another message.? :-)


bill





From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Sat Feb  3 14:44:42 2018
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 20:44:42 +0000
Subject: RX02 Emulator Problem
Message-ID: <BN1PR0101MB0754A5ADA491232A02811BBEEDF80@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>


I finally got a system running again and hooked up my first

AK6DN RX02 Emulator.? Worked, up to a point.? I can boot

from it and read and write to it.? However, every once once

and a while after doing a bunch of accesses the Green LED

stays on and the system freezes.? Sometimes I can get back

out of it with Control-C but sometimes it is locked? up so tight

I have to reboot to get out of it.


Anybody else see this behavior?


bill



From allisonportable at gmail.com  Sat Feb  3 16:26:43 2018
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 17:26:43 -0500
Subject: RX02 problem
In-Reply-To: <BN1PR0101MB075480CE883DE90E7FBFAB39EDF80@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <a58ddf66-14a8-3161-7053-c6d143d294b4@jwsss.com>
 <CAM2UOwLFaXoG9wYL7v=QKLOWbxK_ay5E8BhNStxSj15aU1VX6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAq7DHr+JVVCjzOGTAukupHD9K9EP6h+W2H7GoJmO6+7VcgWDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwLTNsLuTASOEmU-oi4NboHnAV=U-NyMpG4rt3yK4=mhkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwKFWGQCjWn7SZE4fBZ=oTRHpOHnVXZpHj4gY6MqDXbpHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <BN1PR0101MB075480CE883DE90E7FBFAB39EDF80@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <f8fd8e53-c576-4017-54f7-778359b53148@gmail.com>

On 02/03/2018 03:38 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> Do we have any real RX02 experts?? My long time running
>
> RX02 seems to have decided to go on strike.? When I try to
>
> access it now it repeatedly loads and unloads the heads but
>
> never reads anything.? I can usually break out of it with
>
> control-C.? Attempts to boot from it have the same effect.
>
>
> Anybody else ever see this behavior?
>
>
> Oh yeah, I know the controllers are good as I also have an
>
> AK6DN emulator and it works (well up to a point, but that's
>
> a problem for another message.? :-)
>
>
> bill
>
>
>
HI,

Assuming you haven't killed the media either the heads are crudded up
or the cable is partially disconnected.

FYI if the heads are crudded up the media with have a circular scratch
generally in the directory or boot areas (outer edges).? That kills the
media for reading that area.

FYI like everyone I use Isopropanal-91% for cleaning but fpr the
difficult jobs
either xylene(hard to find) or MEK (Methyl-Ethel-keytone)? for the
really stiff
stuff piles as they can dissolve binder.


Allison


From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Sat Feb  3 16:42:11 2018
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 22:42:11 +0000
Subject: RX02 problem
In-Reply-To: <f8fd8e53-c576-4017-54f7-778359b53148@gmail.com>
References: <a58ddf66-14a8-3161-7053-c6d143d294b4@jwsss.com>
 <CAM2UOwLFaXoG9wYL7v=QKLOWbxK_ay5E8BhNStxSj15aU1VX6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAq7DHr+JVVCjzOGTAukupHD9K9EP6h+W2H7GoJmO6+7VcgWDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwLTNsLuTASOEmU-oi4NboHnAV=U-NyMpG4rt3yK4=mhkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwKFWGQCjWn7SZE4fBZ=oTRHpOHnVXZpHj4gY6MqDXbpHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <BN1PR0101MB075480CE883DE90E7FBFAB39EDF80@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <f8fd8e53-c576-4017-54f7-778359b53148@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BN1PR0101MB07542143289FF042F9658270EDF80@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>



On 02/03/2018 05:26 PM, allison via cctalk wrote:
> On 02/03/2018 03:38 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>> Do we have any real RX02 experts?? My long time running
>>
>> RX02 seems to have decided to go on strike.? When I try to
>>
>> access it now it repeatedly loads and unloads the heads but
>>
>> never reads anything.? I can usually break out of it with
>>
>> control-C.? Attempts to boot from it have the same effect.
>>
>>
>> Anybody else ever see this behavior?
>>
>>
>> Oh yeah, I know the controllers are good as I also have an
>>
>> AK6DN emulator and it works (well up to a point, but that's
>>
>> a problem for another message.? :-)
>>
>>
>> bill
>>
>>
>>
> HI,
>
> Assuming you haven't killed the media either the heads are crudded up
> or the cable is partially disconnected.

Ah ha.? I suspect the cable is bad.? I had to repair it once and
I now suspect it is gone bad yet again.? Wonder if I have another
cable that size floating around here somewhere.

>
> FYI if the heads are crudded up the media with have a circular scratch
> generally in the directory or boot areas (outer edges).? That kills the
> media for reading that area.

While possible I would expect that to develop slowly and this was sudden 
like.

Thanks.

bill


From wayne.smith at charter.net  Sat Feb  3 17:15:02 2018
From: wayne.smith at charter.net (Wayne Smith)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 15:15:02 -0800
Subject: IBM 5100 to 5110 Transitional Model
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1517680800.16394.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1517680800.16394.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <011401d39d44$d20c3a30$7624ae90$@smith@charter.net>

Has anyone noted this listing of what the seller is calling an "IBM
5100" on Ebay?  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-5100-B1-Basic-Language-16k-Memory-Powers-
on-monitor-works-but-no-text/112776476816

While it is listed as a 5100, it lacks the 5100 badging on the front
center panel (to the right of the power switch).  In addition, the
indicia on the bottom
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/9VYAAOSwaC9aapB-/s-l1600.jpg)
indicates both models 5100 and 5110, and the KVA is listed at 0.4
whereas 5100s are 0.336.  Compare the typical indicia on the bottom:
https://tinyurl.com/ybmvms7u. 

The serial number is in the 5100 format of 10-1XXXX, but this unit has
the highest serial number I have seen on a 5100 (10-15687). 


I am guessing that this is some sort of transitional version or
perhaps a 5110 "prototype".

Any thoughts?

-W



From systems.glitch at gmail.com  Sat Feb  3 17:17:18 2018
From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 18:17:18 -0500
Subject: Interest Check: Belden Thicknet 10base5 Ethernet Coax
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimmzMu-Aei0EHJxi3_AtZPXZ=puS-=MKic=1+JSJ3G0KcQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA+dub+p8TWenK9+Uy_jbz3mvpVU3B-FQAjxuhuX8fcenC0Kdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <94c5e46c-c78d-cb4b-5553-24eb5b54e9c3@sydex.com>
 <202d49f6-59e3-2ec5-3f9f-fee1443f008f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAA+dubKqC_JawKzWZYebNsVzFV7aX5gmr7oFrCFGtnNsb72szw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmzMu-Aei0EHJxi3_AtZPXZ=puS-=MKic=1+JSJ3G0KcQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA+dubKyo=hv3YfQHoo=rrxxJuMn=sYu9naizRt1vMD2Nv0O4w@mail.gmail.com>

It looks like there's probably enough interest for me to pick up a spool of
the stuff. I haven't heard back from the eBay guy, but if nothing else my
local supplier is a known quantity. I'll start looking into costs for N
connectors, terminator availability, etc.

Thanks,
Jonathan

On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 6:12 PM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 7:06 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> > Full disclosure on price: right now if I buy one spool, it'll be
> $0.60/foot
> > to me, I was thinking I'd charge $1/foot for moderate lengths, of course
> > I'm willing to make a deal on bulk purchases, especially if it ends up
> > being local pick-up (here in VA or VCF East).
> .
> I plan to be at VCF East (although mid-May makes it more difficult to
> block out for me than usual).  I'd be up for a number of feet - enough
> for maybe 3-5 stations?  I would want to know the cost of adding the N
> connectors, but I'd probably take them installed.
>
> I currently have about 10-15 feet of the yellow with black stripes
> variety, barely enough to demonstrate it.
>
> -ethan
>

From santo.nucifora at gmail.com  Sat Feb  3 17:59:20 2018
From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 18:59:20 -0500
Subject: IBM 5100 to 5110 Transitional Model
In-Reply-To: <5a764283.48fe240a.3eb6.41b1SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com>
References: <mailman.1.1517680800.16394.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <5a764283.48fe240a.3eb6.41b1SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAO6+Cm7PKa6DZGSRXDpsfcsf8br0a4vQ+GsvQv_guhZUJGbRWQ@mail.gmail.com>

HI Wayne,

I believe the KVA is increased because of the extra memory card.  I have a
5100 with 0.4 and another with 0.336.  The 0.4 has an extra memory card and
is BASIC and APL as opposed to just BASIC.

The printed 5100 badging on the front is not consistent but sometimes if it
doesn't have it printed on the front, it's on a silver metallic emblem
embedded in the top cover.  If the 5100 badging is printed on the front, it
may or may not have the silver metallic badge on the top cover.  I have a
top emblem model and a top emblem-less model yet both have the 5100 badging
printed on the front.  If you look at other photos on the net, you will see
others with no front printed badging.  This particular one had no front
badging but has the emblem in the top cover and I think this is normal.
I'm not sure which one is earlier/later but I would imagine that is why
there is a difference.

I can't explain the 5110/5100 difference on the bottom.

Hope this helps.



On Sat, Feb 3, 2018 at 6:15 PM, Wayne Smith via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Has anyone noted this listing of what the seller is calling an "IBM
> 5100" on Ebay?
>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-5100-B1-Basic-Language-16k-Memory-Powers-
> on-monitor-works-but-no-text/112776476816
>
> While it is listed as a 5100, it lacks the 5100 badging on the front
> center panel (to the right of the power switch).  In addition, the
> indicia on the bottom
> (https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/9VYAAOSwaC9aapB-/s-l1600.jpg)
> indicates both models 5100 and 5110, and the KVA is listed at 0.4
> whereas 5100s are 0.336.  Compare the typical indicia on the bottom:
> https://tinyurl.com/ybmvms7u.
>
> The serial number is in the 5100 format of 10-1XXXX, but this unit has
> the highest serial number I have seen on a 5100 (10-15687).
>
>
> I am guessing that this is some sort of transitional version or
> perhaps a 5110 "prototype".
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> -W
>
>
>

From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Sat Feb  3 09:08:08 2018
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 09:08:08 -0600
Subject: Password reset for ~1998 AIX on RS/6000?
In-Reply-To: <9988690B-CAB3-4784-8AE6-24CA91726725@swri.edu>
References: <92b4de6a-b537-4bfb-a1fd-1ebe8133f11a@comcast.net>
 <094b01d39b87$f01255a0$d03700e0$@gmail.com>
 <9988690B-CAB3-4784-8AE6-24CA91726725@swri.edu>
Message-ID: <307afa0e-e2b3-2a8b-d4be-7ff25ac940b3@gmail.com>

On 02/01/2018 02:28 PM, Tapley, Mark via cctech wrote:
> Is there a standard procedure for recovering lost passwords for these
> systems, or for resetting passwords? I do have physical access to the
> machine; it?s possible I can find an AIX install disk but it?s *highly*
> desirable to preserve the contents of the existing hard drive.

I want to say that my machine's a 43P-140, too (and I actually have a pair 
of them, but one has some form of hardware fault)

Anyway, for mine, I seem to remember putting the drive into one of my SGIs 
(I didn't have a PC with SCSI on this side of the Atlantic) and writing a 
little script which read the drive block-by-block, saving any to the SGI 
which looked like they might be file fragments containing root password 
entries.

That gave me ten or so blocks, which I then moved over to a Linux PC (which 
had a little more CPU power than the SGI). AIX's password file format is a 
little different to that of everyone else (of course), so I had to tweak 
the data to get it into the right format. From there, it was just a case of 
running a Unix password cracker and it just took a minute or two to find 
the root password.

I forget now which version of AIX I have; I remember that the password 
mechanism changed at some point (and 99% of the information I found at the 
time via Google related to a different version; it was hard to find details 
on the one that I have)

cheers

Jules

From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net  Sat Feb  3 10:35:16 2018
From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 11:35:16 -0500
Subject: VMS 8.4 Alpha Hobbyist disk images
In-Reply-To: <ACC1E06C-0706-4451-8F2C-06C2AB4867CA@gmail.com>
References: <92b4de6a-b537-4bfb-a1fd-1ebe8133f11a@comcast.net>
 <4f8e8cfd-26b7-ed0e-af07-1967660e6702@comcast.net>
 <ACC1E06C-0706-4451-8F2C-06C2AB4867CA@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46858a85-717f-961a-c2df-e3c6653f286b@comcast.net>

Thanks for helping me understand what this is.
My experience has been with Q-bus based Vaxes and this is very different 
in that SCSI controllers for Q-bus are rare while in this Alpha machine 
I've got too many!

You were right about the MIN boot, I went into SYSBOOT> SET STARTUP_P1 
"????? " to reset it from MIN.? Now the console comes up in DecWindows 
and all the devices are visible.
Now I know that the floppy is DVA0:.? This is a nice computer.

Doug

On 2/2/2018 7:55 PM, Adrian Graham via cctech wrote:
>> An update to this.
>>
>> I picked up the Alphaserver today, powered up fine.  I reset the system password so I could log in.
>>
>> It is running OpenVMS 7.1 and has 7 disks in the Storageworks box.
>>
>> When I log in only the boot disk shows up from the $ show dev command.  Nothing else, no CD, no tape which are all there.
>>
>> On powerup it shows:
>>
>> bus 2 slot 0 pka Qlogic ISP10x0
>> bus 2 slot 1 ewa DecChip 21040-AA
>> bus 2 slot 2 pua DEC KFPSA
>> bus 0 slot 11 dra Mylex DAC960
>> bus 0 slot 12 drb Mylex DAC960
>> bus 3 slot 0 pkb Qlogic ISP10x0
> You?ve got a KZP*A, DE500, DSSI, pair of KZPAC (probably) and another KZP*A
>
>> I think 4 of the storageworks disks are in a Raid in the storageworks (DRB).  The DRA raid must have been external since on startup it spends time waiting for it and finally gives up.
> I?d pull whichever KZPAC isn?t connected to anything any more along with the KFPSA which will speed up INIT if nothing else.
>
>> In console mode:
>>
>>>>> show dev
>> DKA400 RRD45
>> DKB400 RZ28
>> DKB500 RZ29
>> DKB600 RZ29
>> DRA0 4 member RAID 5
>> DRA1 1 member JBOD
>> DRB0 4 member RAID 5
>> DVA0
>> MKA500 TLZ07
>> EWA0    mac address
>> PKA0 SCSI bus
>> PKB0 SCSI bus
>> PIA0 DSSI Bus ID 3
> The first KZP*A has the CDROM and tape drive so that?s probably a KZPAA (Qlogic QLA1040), the internal disk shelf must be split bus if you?ve got 7 drives in there, 3 on the 2nd KZPAA (or BA) and 4 on the KZPAC.
>
>> My desire is to setup this machine and use it, however, I don't want to undo things I can't put back together again.  Any thoughts or advice?
> See above :) Take out boards that aren?t connected to anything. I assume you?re doing a MINIMUM boot which would explain the lack of devices when you log in?
>
> Pictures may help too.
>
> Cheers,
>
> ?
> Adrian/Witchy
> Binary Dinosaurs - Celebrating Computing History from 1972 onwards
> w: binarydinosaurs.co.uk t: @binarydinosaurs
> f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs
>


From mattislind at gmail.com  Sat Feb  3 11:21:30 2018
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 18:21:30 +0100
Subject: Data IO 29B / Unipak 2B adapter?
In-Reply-To: <003401d39c72$401e51d0$c05af570$@xs4all.nl>
References: <CABr82SJxyLukMRd7K8SYLNquQSeSN0osb_L_JG+3yYrgA-MiNA@mail.gmail.com>
 <003401d39c72$401e51d0$c05af570$@xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <CABr82SK_G2TsztKL7Vmb-Otq9B-D=cQTzbewc5DcXRE=9e9Viw@mail.gmail.com>

2018-02-02 23:07 GMT+01:00 Rik Bos <hp-fix at xs4all.nl>:

> Mattis,
>
> I have one, want to keep it.
> But if you send me the proms I'll read them for you.
>

I understand that you want to keep the adapter. I prefer not to ship the
PROMs either since I hade several small shipments being lost.

Maybe you could open it and take a photo on both sides?

I took me 351B-086 adapter apart and traced it out. It was quite simple.

Here is a quick and dirty schematic I did:
http://storage.datormuseum.se/u/96935524/Datormusuem/UnipakAdapter.pdf and
the http://storage.datormuseum.se/u/96935524/Datormusuem/UnipakAdapter.zip
(for all files)

The crucial part is to undertand how the 74HC299 is configured since it is
used as give the personality of the module. The inputs is either grounded
or VCC.

Other than that all pins are connected to the 36 pin connector. I believe
that in the case of the 351B-068 the number of address bits a re quite much
less so it would be quite simple to trace out if you have time.


/Mattis




> -Rik
>
> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> > Van: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Mattis Lind
> > via cctech
> > Verzonden: woensdag 31 januari 2018 22:01
> > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> > <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> > Onderwerp: Data IO 29B / Unipak 2B adapter?
> >
> > I need to read a couple of Signetics 82S215 bipolar PROMs with my old
> Data
> > IO 29B / Unipak 2B. But it needs a 351B-068 adapter.
> >
> > Does anyone has information regarding this adapter?
> >
> > I did find an old post in DATA_IO_EPROM at groups.io mailinglist that a man
> > named Alfred Marin had boards. I even found his email but it bounced.
> >
> > Any other pointers in this subject?
> >
> > /Mattis
>
>

From dave at 661.org  Sun Feb  4 08:40:44 2018
From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 14:40:44 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: wonky eproms
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1802041416450.9477@helios.feedle.net>


I have a few tubes of ST-branded M27C256B UV-erasable EPROM chips.  All of 
these fail to program starting at 0x200 until 0x27F.  At 0x200, 0x00 is 
written, then until 0x27F, the bytes are 0xFF.  What would cause this? 
Can it be fixed by an extra-long time in the eraser?  Should I just break 
out the hammer?

At least I know the programmer is capable of programming a TI-branded 
27c256 and 29c256 flash chips.  Might there be a bug in the programming 
software?

FWIW, I'm using a Minipro TL855.  Linux software is available at Github: 
https://github.com/vdudouyt/minipro

-- 
David Griffith
dave at 661.org

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

From aek at bitsavers.org  Sun Feb  4 12:00:32 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 10:00:32 -0800
Subject: Looking for Heath H-29 operation manual and schematic
Message-ID: <e20d10f8-7a7a-a607-cddd-5473d978e558@bitsavers.org>

Just put a working one together from parts from two different auctions and
I'd like to find the rest of the documentation.

H-19s are pretty common, H-29s not so much so. Haven't been able to find the
docs on line anywhere.


From Mark at misty.com  Sun Feb  4 12:22:38 2018
From: Mark at misty.com (Mark G Thomas)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 13:22:38 -0500
Subject: wonky eproms
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1802041416450.9477@helios.feedle.net>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1802041416450.9477@helios.feedle.net>
Message-ID: <7A021FBE-2EEC-488C-B409-F93993BBE12B@misty.com>

David,

This might seem stupid, but I recently had peculiar results with a usb-powered programmer failing on certain ranges of addresses on certain chips, that turned out to be inadequate current available on my USB port. For me, a high-current powered USB hub solved it. I programmed a huge number of chips successfully before I ran into this problem with a particular batch of chips.

Mark

Mark G Thomas

> On Feb 4, 2018, at 9:40 AM, David Griffith via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> I have a few tubes of ST-branded M27C256B UV-erasable EPROM chips.  All of these fail to program starting at 0x200 until 0x27F.  At 0x200, 0x00 is written, then until 0x27F, the bytes are 0xFF.  What would cause this? Can it be fixed by an extra-long time in the eraser?  Should I just break out the hammer?
> 
> At least I know the programmer is capable of programming a TI-branded 27c256 and 29c256 flash chips.  Might there be a bug in the programming software?
> 
> FWIW, I'm using a Minipro TL855.  Linux software is available at Github: https://github.com/vdudouyt/minipro
> 
> -- 
> David Griffith
> dave at 661.org
> 
> A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
> A: Top-posting.
> Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Sun Feb  4 12:54:47 2018
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 10:54:47 -0800
Subject: MicroVAX Diagnostic Monitor, Version 5.0, Release 139 on CD-ROM?
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwLMb3hsBXptDLMj0SZPdZMvfxBKfOvm2MVdvX_rEFOtNQ@mail.gmail.com>

According to the document referenced below the MicroVAX Diagnostic
Monitor, Version 5.0, Release 139 was available a CD-ROM media, where
QZ-K32AA-H8 was the order number of the CD-ROM media kit.

So the question is, does anyone happen to have a copy of that MDM
CD-ROM? Or any versions of MDM on CD-ROM?

MicroVAX Diagnostic Monitor Release Notes
Order Number: AA-PK29E-TE
These release notes describe restrictions, undocumented features, and
other essential information about the MicroVAX Diagnostic Monitor (MDM)
Version 5.0, Release 139. These release notes supersede all other MDM
documentation.
http://manx-docs.org/collections/mds-199909/cd1/vax/pk29ete.pdf

From fritzm at fritzm.org  Sun Feb  4 13:31:27 2018
From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 11:31:27 -0800
Subject: Looking for Heath H-29 operation manual and schematic
In-Reply-To: <e20d10f8-7a7a-a607-cddd-5473d978e558@bitsavers.org>
References: <e20d10f8-7a7a-a607-cddd-5473d978e558@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <6797E98C-BAC9-4287-8DA4-24029E34C758@fritzm.org>

Hi Al,

I may have some Z-29 docs around, if that would be helpful?  I?ll have a look; if I can find them I?d be happy to send them your way for scanning.

  ?FritzM.

From pete at petelancashire.com  Sun Feb  4 18:46:09 2018
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 16:46:09 -0800
Subject: Looking for a home
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u8pRUukH=OsFBV+sJw2tfL22fd+6HiuFMOJhGe=rAwJCA@mail.gmail.com>

Need to start cleaning aut, will have more/better pictures soon

The Alphas have full True64 feature certificates, at least one ran
before going into storage and has 2 72 GBs and at least 3 new 300 GB drives.

One of the Suns is a Sun1 pre-production

https://photos.app.goo.gl/c8dHa89KUaUGVn9n1

The IBM RS6000 has been spoken for

-pete

From kylevowen at gmail.com  Sun Feb  4 18:46:17 2018
From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 18:46:17 -0600
Subject: Looking for Heath H-29 operation manual and schematic
In-Reply-To: <6797E98C-BAC9-4287-8DA4-24029E34C758@fritzm.org>
References: <e20d10f8-7a7a-a607-cddd-5473d978e558@bitsavers.org>
 <6797E98C-BAC9-4287-8DA4-24029E34C758@fritzm.org>
Message-ID: <CAKtEYUyBEE9j7zT_yFSVSkHUeb9XyDruXuWFr7KbEfKfe1n34w@mail.gmail.com>

I have a (supposedly complete) manual set for a Z-29 and can scan them
after VCF PNW.

Kyle

From ftg888 at elbonia.org  Sun Feb  4 18:49:33 2018
From: ftg888 at elbonia.org (ftg888 at elbonia.org)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 01:49:33 +0100
Subject: Looking for a home
In-Reply-To: <CAA-F0u8pRUukH=OsFBV+sJw2tfL22fd+6HiuFMOJhGe=rAwJCA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA-F0u8pRUukH=OsFBV+sJw2tfL22fd+6HiuFMOJhGe=rAwJCA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B2A5D136-94C4-471B-B811-842097B008A6@elbonia.org>

What's the slab on the top?

Sent from my iPhone

> On 5 Feb 2018, at 01:46, Pete Lancashire via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Need to start cleaning aut, will have more/better pictures soon
> 
> The Alphas have full True64 feature certificates, at least one ran
> before going into storage and has 2 72 GBs and at least 3 new 300 GB drives.
> 
> One of the Suns is a Sun1 pre-production
> 
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/c8dHa89KUaUGVn9n1
> 
> The IBM RS6000 has been spoken for
> 
> -pete


From ftg888 at elbonia.org  Sun Feb  4 18:50:57 2018
From: ftg888 at elbonia.org (ftg888 at elbonia.org)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 01:50:57 +0100
Subject: Looking for a home
In-Reply-To: <CAA-F0u8pRUukH=OsFBV+sJw2tfL22fd+6HiuFMOJhGe=rAwJCA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA-F0u8pRUukH=OsFBV+sJw2tfL22fd+6HiuFMOJhGe=rAwJCA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <34C50E40-DB35-444B-9619-1EDA4CC7F790@elbonia.org>

How much for the vax 3100?
Please?


Sent from my iPhone

> On 5 Feb 2018, at 01:46, Pete Lancashire via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Need to start cleaning aut, will have more/better pictures soon
> 
> The Alphas have full True64 feature certificates, at least one ran
> before going into storage and has 2 72 GBs and at least 3 new 300 GB drives.
> 
> One of the Suns is a Sun1 pre-production
> 
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/c8dHa89KUaUGVn9n1
> 
> The IBM RS6000 has been spoken for
> 
> -pete


From pete at petelancashire.com  Sun Feb  4 18:52:07 2018
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 16:52:07 -0800
Subject: Looking for a home
In-Reply-To: <B2A5D136-94C4-471B-B811-842097B008A6@elbonia.org>
References: <CAA-F0u8pRUukH=OsFBV+sJw2tfL22fd+6HiuFMOJhGe=rAwJCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <B2A5D136-94C4-471B-B811-842097B008A6@elbonia.org>
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u8SaKbRVdLLn7wjwASAFRofCGYDF4WQB2b=y-AhVsa9EA@mail.gmail.com>

I think that is the pre-production Sparc 1

On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 4:49 PM, ftg888 at elbonia.org <ftg888 at elbonia.org>
wrote:

> What's the slab on the top?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On 5 Feb 2018, at 01:46, Pete Lancashire via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > Need to start cleaning aut, will have more/better pictures soon
> >
> > The Alphas have full True64 feature certificates, at least one ran
> > before going into storage and has 2 72 GBs and at least 3 new 300 GB
> drives.
> >
> > One of the Suns is a Sun1 pre-production
> >
> > https://photos.app.goo.gl/c8dHa89KUaUGVn9n1
> >
> > The IBM RS6000 has been spoken for
> >
> > -pete
>
>
>

From rlloken at telus.net  Sun Feb  4 18:58:30 2018
From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 17:58:30 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Looking for a home
In-Reply-To: iUvIe4mmUpdqUiUvKeNs6Q
References: iUvIe4mmUpdqUiUvKeNs6Q
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1802041757090.76299@discord.bogons>

On Sun, 4 Feb 2018, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote:

> One of the Suns is a Sun1 pre-production

Perhaps a pre-production Sparc?  I had a long personal relationship with
a Sun-1 and nothing there looks remotely like a Sun-1.

-- 
   Richard Loken VE6BSV         	  : "...underneath those tuques we wear,
   Athabasca, Alberta Canada       : our heads are naked!"
   ** rlloken at telus.net **         :    - Arthur Black

From pete at petelancashire.com  Sun Feb  4 19:53:30 2018
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 17:53:30 -0800
Subject: Looking for a home
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1802041757090.76299@discord.bogons>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1802041757090.76299@discord.bogons>
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u-HzzDv3x7E0uB4fNv1Lht76Gpg-DVmKHduWyQeRSjFBw@mail.gmail.com>

sorry i ment sparc 1, it was "loaned" to me by Sun, I had the first Suns in
the Portland Area, was totally different back then,
has a problem with VI and Bill Joy took the ticket.

I started with 3's

-pete

On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 4:58 PM, Richard Loken <rlloken at telus.net> wrote:

> On Sun, 4 Feb 2018, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote:
>
> One of the Suns is a Sun1 pre-production
>>
>
> Perhaps a pre-production Sparc?  I had a long personal relationship with
> a Sun-1 and nothing there looks remotely like a Sun-1.
>
> --
>   Richard Loken VE6BSV            : "...underneath those tuques we wear,
>   Athabasca, Alberta Canada       : our heads are naked!"
>   ** rlloken at telus.net **         :    - Arthur Black
>
>

From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net  Sun Feb  4 15:42:10 2018
From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 16:42:10 -0500
Subject: DEC Storageworks
Message-ID: <72bfdd7d-11b0-4a67-bad7-2f889b0862d6@comcast.net>

The alphaserver 1000a I have has a storageworks array.

The disk carriers are green in color, I see storageworks disks for sale 
on ebay that are blue.? What is the difference? Are they interchangeable?

Is it possible (or even wise) to open one of the green carriers and 
change the disk out?

Doug


From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Sun Feb  4 16:14:51 2018
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 15:14:51 -0700
Subject: DEC Storageworks
In-Reply-To: <72bfdd7d-11b0-4a67-bad7-2f889b0862d6@comcast.net>
References: <72bfdd7d-11b0-4a67-bad7-2f889b0862d6@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <e2d5aa31-92d1-2c76-6441-33247b521e91@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 02/04/2018 02:42 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote:
> The alphaserver 1000a I have has a storageworks array.
> 
> The disk carriers are green in color, I see storageworks disks for sale 
> on ebay that are blue.  What is the difference? Are they interchangeable?
> 
> Is it possible (or even wise) to open one of the green carriers and 
> change the disk out?

I believe that it is possible to open the carriers and put different 
drives in.

If memory serves (often it does not) the drives are single ended narrow 
SCSI.  So, in theory, any SE narrow drive should work.  I don't recall 
the Alpha using different block sizes, but that may be do to lack of 
exposure.

I don't know if there was a difference in the blue enclosures vs the 
green enclosures or not.

I do think that some of the external StorageWorks enclosures used High 
Voltage Differential to allow enclosures to be greater distances from 
the chassis they were connected to.  -  I think there was an interposer 
board to translate from High Voltage Differential (HVD) and Low Voltage 
Differential (LVD) which the drives used.

My exposure to DEC Alpha equipment was minimal and a LONG time ago.  So 
take everything with a grain of salt.  But do be mindful that DEC liked 
to mix and match things.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From rlloken at telus.net  Sun Feb  4 16:53:27 2018
From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 15:53:27 -0700 (MST)
Subject: DEC Storageworks
In-Reply-To: iS3OeLQUFStf7iS3Pe3xWP
References: iS3OeLQUFStf7iS3Pe3xWP
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1802041548110.69646@discord.bogons>

On Sun, 4 Feb 2018, Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote:

> The alphaserver 1000a I have has a storageworks array.
>
> The disk carriers are green in color, I see storageworks disks for sale on 
> ebay that are blue.? What is the difference? Are they interchangeable?
>
> Is it possible (or even wise) to open one of the green carriers and change 
> the disk out?

Yes, the disks are interchangeable.  I have used blue disks in a green shelf 
and green disks in a blue shelf.  The modules come apart fairly easily and
you can replace the drives or remove drives and use them as ordinary SCSI
drives elsewhere - I have done that too.

DEC and Compaq also sold DLTs in a StorageWorks module those can also be
taken apart and the drive replaced but they are harder to get apart and
you must pay attention if you hope to get it reassembled properly.

>
> Doug
>
>

-- 
   Richard Loken VE6BSV         	  : "...underneath those tuques we wear,
   Athabasca, Alberta Canada       : our heads are naked!"
   ** rlloken at telus.net **         :    - Arthur Black

From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Sun Feb  4 18:35:53 2018
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2018 00:35:53 +0000 (WET)
Subject: DEC Storageworks
In-Reply-To: <72bfdd7d-11b0-4a67-bad7-2f889b0862d6@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <01QOO8TDEONS003M29@beyondthepale.ie>

>
> The alphaserver 1000a I have has a storageworks array.
>
> The disk carriers are green in color, I see storageworks disks for sale 
> on ebay that are blue.? What is the difference? Are they interchangeable?
>

As far as I know, the green ones are 8 bit SCSI and the blue ones are 16 bit
SCSI.

If I recall correctly, if you put green disks in a blue shelf, they work but
I'm not sure if they force the rest of the bus to work in 8 bit mode. If you
put blue disks in a green shelf, they work in 8 bit mode.  I'm looking at one
here doing just that.

>
> Is it possible (or even wise) to open one of the green carriers and 
> change the disk out?
>

It shouldn't be a problem.  The green ones have 50 pin connectors for the
disks and the blue ones have 68 pin connectors.  Other issues that might arise
include whether the internal cables will reach to where the connectors are on
the replacement disk.

In the days of the green disks, it was possible to buy empty (white) containers
to put your own disks in from DEC or whatever they were called then.  I think
these were slightly more flexible on the mounting arrangements and cable layout
for the disks inside them than the green containers.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu  Sun Feb  4 20:53:18 2018
From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 02:53:18 +0000
Subject: DEC Storageworks
In-Reply-To: <72bfdd7d-11b0-4a67-bad7-2f889b0862d6@comcast.net>
References: <72bfdd7d-11b0-4a67-bad7-2f889b0862d6@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <2B4A7635-EEE9-4384-B175-56441C4F2126@mail2.cu-portland.edu>

I want to say the difference is in HVD vs LVD SCSI ...  unless you?ve swapped out the guts yourself, I?d not mix and match...

Then again it?s been forever since I monkeyed with those things and I could be mistaken...

As for opening them, I?ve cracked them open before. It?s possible, but they were not manufactured to have their drives replaced easily... I damaged one last time I tried... be careful.

Do you have the controller too, or just the jbod?

-Ben


Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 4, 2018, at 1:42 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> The alphaserver 1000a I have has a storageworks array.
> 
> The disk carriers are green in color, I see storageworks disks for sale on ebay that are blue.  What is the difference? Are they interchangeable?
> 
> Is it possible (or even wise) to open one of the green carriers and change the disk out?
> 
> Doug
> 

From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net  Sun Feb  4 22:17:55 2018
From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 23:17:55 -0500
Subject: DEC Storageworks
In-Reply-To: <2B4A7635-EEE9-4384-B175-56441C4F2126@mail2.cu-portland.edu>
References: <72bfdd7d-11b0-4a67-bad7-2f889b0862d6@comcast.net>
 <2B4A7635-EEE9-4384-B175-56441C4F2126@mail2.cu-portland.edu>
Message-ID: <29bd8719-1ed5-b46f-9905-7479971819e5@comcast.net>

Ben;

Jbod.? Didn't know what it meant until today.? The computer has 4 SCSI 
controllers, the Storageworks is operated in a split configuration.? 4 
drives are on a RAID controller, the other 3 are on a normal SCSI 
controller.

What I was getting at with replacing the disks in the carrier was 
exactly what you mentioned; LVD or HVD SCSI.? I don't know what is in 
there.? Is it 50 pin or 68 or 80 pin.

Doug

On 2/4/2018 9:53 PM, Benjamin Huntsman wrote:
> I want to say the difference is in HVD vs LVD SCSI ...  unless you?ve swapped out the guts yourself, I?d not mix and match...
>
> Then again it?s been forever since I monkeyed with those things and I could be mistaken...
>
> As for opening them, I?ve cracked them open before. It?s possible, but they were not manufactured to have their drives replaced easily... I damaged one last time I tried... be careful.
>
> Do you have the controller too, or just the jbod?
>
> -Ben
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Feb 4, 2018, at 1:42 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> The alphaserver 1000a I have has a storageworks array.
>>
>> The disk carriers are green in color, I see storageworks disks for sale on ebay that are blue.  What is the difference? Are they interchangeable?
>>
>> Is it possible (or even wise) to open one of the green carriers and change the disk out?
>>
>> Doug
>>


From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu  Sun Feb  4 22:28:08 2018
From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 04:28:08 +0000
Subject: DEC Storageworks
In-Reply-To: <29bd8719-1ed5-b46f-9905-7479971819e5@comcast.net>
References: <72bfdd7d-11b0-4a67-bad7-2f889b0862d6@comcast.net>
 <2B4A7635-EEE9-4384-B175-56441C4F2126@mail2.cu-portland.edu>,
 <29bd8719-1ed5-b46f-9905-7479971819e5@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <BN6PR03MB3076E1CB371CBA94899871CAE4FE0@BN6PR03MB3076.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>

80-pin is SCA.  Definitely no SCA disks in there.

The blue ones should be 68-pin, and the beige ones 50-pin.


Like I said though, double-check me :)


Good luck, and have fun!


-Ben



________________________________
From: Douglas Taylor <dj.taylor4 at comcast.net>
Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2018 8:17 PM
To: Benjamin Huntsman; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: DEC Storageworks

Ben;

Jbod.  Didn't know what it meant until today.  The computer has 4 SCSI
controllers, the Storageworks is operated in a split configuration.  4
drives are on a RAID controller, the other 3 are on a normal SCSI
controller.

What I was getting at with replacing the disks in the carrier was
exactly what you mentioned; LVD or HVD SCSI.  I don't know what is in
there.  Is it 50 pin or 68 or 80 pin.

Doug

On 2/4/2018 9:53 PM, Benjamin Huntsman wrote:
> I want to say the difference is in HVD vs LVD SCSI ...  unless you?ve swapped out the guts yourself, I?d not mix and match...
>
> Then again it?s been forever since I monkeyed with those things and I could be mistaken...
>
> As for opening them, I?ve cracked them open before. It?s possible, but they were not manufactured to have their drives replaced easily... I damaged one last time I tried... be careful.
>
> Do you have the controller too, or just the jbod?
>
> -Ben
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Feb 4, 2018, at 1:42 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> The alphaserver 1000a I have has a storageworks array.
>>
>> The disk carriers are green in color, I see storageworks disks for sale on ebay that are blue.  What is the difference? Are they interchangeable?
>>
>> Is it possible (or even wise) to open one of the green carriers and change the disk out?
>>
>> Doug
>>


From doc at vaxen.net  Sun Feb  4 22:56:36 2018
From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 22:56:36 -0600
Subject: DEC Storageworks
In-Reply-To: <29bd8719-1ed5-b46f-9905-7479971819e5@comcast.net>
References: <72bfdd7d-11b0-4a67-bad7-2f889b0862d6@comcast.net>
 <2B4A7635-EEE9-4384-B175-56441C4F2126@mail2.cu-portland.edu>
 <29bd8719-1ed5-b46f-9905-7479971819e5@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <5838d4ff-a5a3-4c53-0c14-ccab349dde93@vaxen.net>

   The Storageworks cabinets I worked with were all either LVD or SE 
SCSI, no HVD.  All of the RZ26 and some of RZ28 and RZ29 disks that I've 
seen were 50-pin, the rest 80-pin.  I don't recall any 68-pin 
Storageworks drives.

   Then again, my knowledge of that whole ecosystem is VERY anectdotal 
and limited.

   I think the answer you need is "Pop the cans open and look first."


	Doc



On 2/4/18 10:17 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote:
> Ben;
> 
> Jbod.? Didn't know what it meant until today.? The computer has 4 SCSI 
> controllers, the Storageworks is operated in a split configuration.? 4 
> drives are on a RAID controller, the other 3 are on a normal SCSI 
> controller.
> 
> What I was getting at with replacing the disks in the carrier was 
> exactly what you mentioned; LVD or HVD SCSI.? I don't know what is in 
> there.? Is it 50 pin or 68 or 80 pin.
> 
> Doug
> 
> On 2/4/2018 9:53 PM, Benjamin Huntsman wrote:
>> I want to say the difference is in HVD vs LVD SCSI ...? unless you?ve 
>> swapped out the guts yourself, I?d not mix and match...
>>
>> Then again it?s been forever since I monkeyed with those things and I 
>> could be mistaken...
>>
>> As for opening them, I?ve cracked them open before. It?s possible, but 
>> they were not manufactured to have their drives replaced easily... I 
>> damaged one last time I tried... be careful.
>>
>> Do you have the controller too, or just the jbod?
>>
>> -Ben
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Feb 4, 2018, at 1:42 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctech 
>>> <cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> The alphaserver 1000a I have has a storageworks array.
>>>
>>> The disk carriers are green in color, I see storageworks disks for 
>>> sale on ebay that are blue.? What is the difference? Are they 
>>> interchangeable?
>>>
>>> Is it possible (or even wise) to open one of the green carriers and 
>>> change the disk out?
>>>
>>> Doug
>>>
> 


From doc at vaxen.net  Sun Feb  4 23:18:22 2018
From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 23:18:22 -0600
Subject: DEC Storageworks
In-Reply-To: <5838d4ff-a5a3-4c53-0c14-ccab349dde93@vaxen.net>
References: <72bfdd7d-11b0-4a67-bad7-2f889b0862d6@comcast.net>
 <2B4A7635-EEE9-4384-B175-56441C4F2126@mail2.cu-portland.edu>
 <29bd8719-1ed5-b46f-9905-7479971819e5@comcast.net>
 <5838d4ff-a5a3-4c53-0c14-ccab349dde93@vaxen.net>
Message-ID: <3ec23eb3-1078-4070-ff63-26ac4874b0b1@vaxen.net>

   Sorry, hit send half-done.

   The cans are easy to open, and a bit of care will prevent damage to 
the electronics.

   The internal connectors are all Mylar ribbon cables and the IDC and 
Molex connectors are VERY tight.  This means that you'll need to use a 
putty knife or screwdriver to pry the SCSI and power connectors off the 
drive without stressing the ribbon.  The ribbon cable *will* either 
break away from the plug or just break if you pull on it.

   Having said that,, after the obligatory learning curve I did replace 
a bunch of the drives in SW cans without mishap.  ;-)


	Doc


On 2/4/18 10:56 PM, Doc Shipley via cctech wrote:
>  ? The Storageworks cabinets I worked with were all either LVD or SE 
> SCSI, no HVD.? All of the RZ26 and some of RZ28 and RZ29 disks that I've 
> seen were 50-pin, the rest 80-pin.? I don't recall any 68-pin 
> Storageworks drives.
> 
>  ? Then again, my knowledge of that whole ecosystem is VERY anectdotal 
> and limited.
> 
>  ? I think the answer you need is "Pop the cans open and look first."
> 
> 
>  ????Doc
> 
> 
> 
> On 2/4/18 10:17 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote:
>> Ben;
>>
>> Jbod.? Didn't know what it meant until today.? The computer has 4 SCSI 
>> controllers, the Storageworks is operated in a split configuration.? 4 
>> drives are on a RAID controller, the other 3 are on a normal SCSI 
>> controller.
>>
>> What I was getting at with replacing the disks in the carrier was 
>> exactly what you mentioned; LVD or HVD SCSI.? I don't know what is in 
>> there.? Is it 50 pin or 68 or 80 pin.
>>
>> Doug
>>
>> On 2/4/2018 9:53 PM, Benjamin Huntsman wrote:
>>> I want to say the difference is in HVD vs LVD SCSI ...? unless you?ve 
>>> swapped out the guts yourself, I?d not mix and match...
>>>
>>> Then again it?s been forever since I monkeyed with those things and I 
>>> could be mistaken...
>>>
>>> As for opening them, I?ve cracked them open before. It?s possible, 
>>> but they were not manufactured to have their drives replaced 
>>> easily... I damaged one last time I tried... be careful.
>>>
>>> Do you have the controller too, or just the jbod?
>>>
>>> -Ben
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>> On Feb 4, 2018, at 1:42 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctech 
>>>> <cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The alphaserver 1000a I have has a storageworks array.
>>>>
>>>> The disk carriers are green in color, I see storageworks disks for 
>>>> sale on ebay that are blue.? What is the difference? Are they 
>>>> interchangeable?
>>>>
>>>> Is it possible (or even wise) to open one of the green carriers and 
>>>> change the disk out?
>>>>
>>>> Doug
>>>>
>>
> 


From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com  Mon Feb  5 02:42:02 2018
From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 08:42:02 +0000
Subject: DEC Storageworks
In-Reply-To: <72bfdd7d-11b0-4a67-bad7-2f889b0862d6@comcast.net>
References: <72bfdd7d-11b0-4a67-bad7-2f889b0862d6@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <FFBB9120-287A-4092-9BA4-6A4819319852@gmail.com>


> On 4 Feb 2018, at 21:42, Douglas Taylor via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> The alphaserver 1000a I have has a storageworks array.
> 
> The disk carriers are green in color, I see storageworks disks for sale on ebay that are blue.  What is the difference? Are they interchangeable?
> 
> Is it possible (or even wise) to open one of the green carriers and change the disk out?
> 
> Doug
> 

You?ve got an 8-bit narrow SCSI system in the 1000A hence the green SBBs (system building blocks) that maxed out at 9GB IIRC. Blue SBBs matched the Top Gun Blue Alphas (1200 upwards) and were 16 bit wide SCSI going up to 36GB. You can mix and match, a blue drive in a green shelf will just run 8 bit.

The carriers come apart fairly easily with a flat blade screwdriver but beware that the snaps that hold the case together can be brittle. Drives themselves are mostly bog-standard Seagates and the only limitation on drive side is the maximum LUN size you can create on the RAID controllers which from memory was 32GB. As has been mentioned elsewhere be VERY careful with the mylar cables. I used to replace drives in SBBs all the time and the best way to do it is with a narrow flat blade screwdriver down the side of the socket to gently prise the plug out.

?
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs - Celebrating Computing History from 1972 onwards
w: binarydinosaurs.co.uk t: @binarydinosaurs
f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs


From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com  Mon Feb  5 04:37:27 2018
From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2018 11:37:27 +0100
Subject: Help identify "multichip module"
In-Reply-To: <20180203195152.GF1424@Update.UU.SE>
References: <20180203174957.GE1424@Update.UU.SE>
 <20180203195152.GF1424@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <2BD9C858-43DD-4D99-9760-16B42716A175@vmssoftware.com>

    On Sat, Feb 03, 2018 at 06:49:57PM +0100, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk wrote:
    > Hi
    > 
    > I got this picture sent to me with zero context. Does anyone recognize 
    > what it is?
    > 
    > http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/identify/mystery_chips.jpeg
    > 
    > Thank you,
    > Pontus.

I have seen these before, in another life as an audio/video technician. These plug into the video processor board on older Grass Valley equipment, like the 100 and 200 series production switchers. I believe - but this is where I enter the realm of speculation - they are ROMs containing the code for different effects. The utility processor board has a DEC J11 processor on it.

Camiel.
    



From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Mon Feb  5 09:02:55 2018
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 15:02:55 +0000
Subject: Looking for Heath H-29 operation manual and schematic
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEYUyBEE9j7zT_yFSVSkHUeb9XyDruXuWFr7KbEfKfe1n34w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e20d10f8-7a7a-a607-cddd-5473d978e558@bitsavers.org>
 <6797E98C-BAC9-4287-8DA4-24029E34C758@fritzm.org>,
 <CAKtEYUyBEE9j7zT_yFSVSkHUeb9XyDruXuWFr7KbEfKfe1n34w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR14MB16002464F94C0B2D2AF3ADCDA3FE0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>

I expect to be at the PNW VCF. If Al isn't going up there I can take them and give then to Al. We are in yelling distance ( almost ) of each other.

Dwight


________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Kyle Owen via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2018 4:46:17 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Looking for Heath H-29 operation manual and schematic

I have a (supposedly complete) manual set for a Z-29 and can scan them
after VCF PNW.

Kyle

From kylevowen at gmail.com  Mon Feb  5 09:54:07 2018
From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 09:54:07 -0600
Subject: Looking for Heath H-29 operation manual and schematic
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR14MB16002464F94C0B2D2AF3ADCDA3FE0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
References: <e20d10f8-7a7a-a607-cddd-5473d978e558@bitsavers.org>
 <6797E98C-BAC9-4287-8DA4-24029E34C758@fritzm.org>
 <CAKtEYUyBEE9j7zT_yFSVSkHUeb9XyDruXuWFr7KbEfKfe1n34w@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR14MB16002464F94C0B2D2AF3ADCDA3FE0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEYUxTdgL2ZwD_OcuXuG0+R0EKYVjXGngey9zRbifJ-PR58Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 5, 2018 07:02, "dwight" <dkelvey at hotmail.com> wrote:

I expect to be at the PNW VCF. If Al isn't going up there I can take them
and give then to Al. We are in yelling distance ( almost ) of each other.

Dwight


Only issue is I'm already in Portland visiting other collectors before the
show. :\

Kyle

From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Feb  5 11:08:25 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 09:08:25 -0800
Subject: Looking for Heath H-29 operation manual and schematic
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEYUxTdgL2ZwD_OcuXuG0+R0EKYVjXGngey9zRbifJ-PR58Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e20d10f8-7a7a-a607-cddd-5473d978e558@bitsavers.org>
 <6797E98C-BAC9-4287-8DA4-24029E34C758@fritzm.org>
 <CAKtEYUyBEE9j7zT_yFSVSkHUeb9XyDruXuWFr7KbEfKfe1n34w@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR14MB16002464F94C0B2D2AF3ADCDA3FE0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAKtEYUxTdgL2ZwD_OcuXuG0+R0EKYVjXGngey9zRbifJ-PR58Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <96314f7e-b0c3-16c2-ab1a-11284a4ab4d7@bitsavers.org>

Thanks for the help. The only tricky part will be that the schematic is larger than
11 x 17

Need to get my blueprint scanner working.


On 2/5/18 7:54 AM, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote:
> On Feb 5, 2018 07:02, "dwight" <dkelvey at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I expect to be at the PNW VCF. If Al isn't going up there I can take them
> and give then to Al. We are in yelling distance ( almost ) of each other.
> 
> Dwight
> 
> 
> Only issue is I'm already in Portland visiting other collectors before the
> show. :\
> 
> Kyle
> 


From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Mon Feb  5 11:31:26 2018
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 10:31:26 -0700
Subject: IP address classes vs CIDR (was Re: Reviving ARPAnet)
In-Reply-To: <20180118192359.43E6CA585D7@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
References: <20180118185447.9A12718C08B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20180118192359.43E6CA585D7@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <2a4f0f9c-6752-49bd-9f1c-295dc6e55b9c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 01/18/2018 12:23 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote:
> You all talk about Proxy ARP in the past tense for some reason. :)

You might find it entertaining to know that I was just talking with 
colleagues that are currently using Proxy ARP to solve the lack of 
subnet problem at 40 Gbps line rate.

It's the same old problem, but this time it's how to sub-divide a /26 
into a /27 and two /28s without the router for the /26 being re-configured.

So Proxy ARP FAR from dead.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From Mark at Misty.com  Mon Feb  5 12:20:30 2018
From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G Thomas)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 13:20:30 -0500
Subject: [RESOLVED] Re: EPROM baking
In-Reply-To: <20171221021850.GA4333@allie.home.misty.com>
References: <20171213140834.GA3905@allie.home.misty.com>
 <CABGJBuegbvsi0cftLzksBGL7Kyp13Fk=5jFZ1AgciFsVkwy3Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR14MB1600987EA49FA320B6C07806A3350@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <20171221021850.GA4333@allie.home.misty.com>
Message-ID: <20180205182030.GA31063@allie.home.misty.com>

Hi,

Please see resolution below, if you are curious about how this turned out.

On Wed, Dec 20, 2017 at 09:18:50PM -0500, Mark G Thomas via cctalk wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> > On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 9:08 AM, Mark G Thomas via cctalk <
> > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> > 
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I am working on several projects requiring 2708 and 2716 EPROMs, and
> > > am finding some of my chips will not erase, and some will not take
> > > a program. I've also learned more in the past week than I wanted
> > > to know about repairing Data-I/O 29a/b programmers.
> > >
> > > I vaguely remember in the 1990s baking such EPROMs in the oven, but
> > > I do not remember temperature or time. I was surprised that Google
> > > didn't turn up anything useful with this info.
> > >
> > > I'm sure someone here will have some notes on EPROM baking.
> > >
> > > Mark
> > 
> > Mark,
> > 
> > If this is an issue about reviving bad eproms?  I assume you have tried the
> > regular stuff.
> > 
> > What process are you using now to erase 2708/16's?  I have a simple eraser
> > unit and it seems to always work.  Some eproms go bad but I never have
> > issues with erasing them.  My point is that maybe you need a better prom
> > eraser unit.  
> 
> They seem to erase fine, using a PRO-LOG 9103 eraser (box, timer, tube...)
> 
> > I would avoid baking them until you have exhausted other
> > options.  Not sure what others think.  This topic has come up before here,
> > about putting them outside and all that.  The erasers are all over ebay,
> > and the hardware store is full of the correct types of lighting, why not
> > make a box that will do the job?    I assume there is more to it that
> > simply erasing them.
> > 
> > 
> > Bill

After more experimentation I came to the following conclusions.

1) Some of my chips are legitimately bad, erasing fine but won't take a program.

2) Many of the chips were failing to program because my Batronix 
   programmer apparently requires more current than my USB port provides. 
   This surprised me because I have been programming chips for years 
   using this programmer on this computer port successfully, and this 
   is the first I have had the problem. Using a Anker powered USB hub solved
   things. My Batronix programmer even arrived with a cheap powered hub 
   when I ordered it, but I never used it because it was shipped with an 
   incompatible wall wart, but looking at it in the box gave me the idea
   that this might be the issue.

3) I thought I had ruled out the programmer (#2) because of troubles 
   programming those same chips using another programmer, but I probably 
   had the wrong chip type selected, or simply failed on some of the #1 
   chips so assumed that was my only problem.

Mark


-- 
Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE

From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Feb  5 13:06:29 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 11:06:29 -0800
Subject: [RESOLVED] Re: EPROM baking
In-Reply-To: <20180205182030.GA31063@allie.home.misty.com>
References: <20171213140834.GA3905@allie.home.misty.com>
 <CABGJBuegbvsi0cftLzksBGL7Kyp13Fk=5jFZ1AgciFsVkwy3Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR14MB1600987EA49FA320B6C07806A3350@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <20171221021850.GA4333@allie.home.misty.com>
 <20180205182030.GA31063@allie.home.misty.com>
Message-ID: <44108215-a070-52b4-24d4-8553d18d1dfa@sydex.com>

On 02/05/2018 10:20 AM, Mark G Thomas via cctalk wrote:

> 2) Many of the chips were failing to program because my Batronix 
>    programmer apparently requires more current than my USB port provides. 
>    This surprised me because I have been programming chips for years 
>    using this programmer on this computer port successfully, and this 
>    is the first I have had the problem. Using a Anker powered USB hub solved
>    things. My Batronix programmer even arrived with a cheap powered hub 
>    when I ordered it, but I never used it because it was shipped with an 
>    incompatible wall wart, but looking at it in the box gave me the idea
>    that this might be the issue.

You should be aware that many "thin" Far East USB cables will not pass
the full USB 1.5A current without substantial voltage drop.   I recently
ran into this with a new LG portable DVD drive.  It refused to operate,
even though I'd just taken it out of the box.   I replaced the "thin"
USB cable with several other "thin" ones that I had with the same
result.  Finally, in desperation, I located a "thick" USB cable, plugged
the drive in, and discovered that it worked just fine.

Moral:  There's a lot of garbage out there.

Rant:  The whole scheme of supplying anything but low-current using USB
is a terrible idea.  I have a similar gripe with barrel connectors,
which don't seem to enforce any standard at all regarding polarity or AC
vs. DC.

For my own projects I've taken to using mini XLR connectors. Perhaps not
optimal, but they're rugged enough.

--Chuck



From johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  5 11:27:26 2018
From: johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com (John H. Reinhardt)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 11:27:26 -0600
Subject: DEC Storageworks
In-Reply-To: <72bfdd7d-11b0-4a67-bad7-2f889b0862d6@comcast.net>
References: <72bfdd7d-11b0-4a67-bad7-2f889b0862d6@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <1c6302ce-4f98-7013-101b-03ce2c88cbe7@yahoo.com>

Tried to send this last night. Some strange Yahoo-Thunderbird problem kept it form sending.

On 2/4/2018 3:42 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote:
> The alphaserver 1000a I have has a storageworks array.
> 
> The disk carriers are green in color, I see storageworks disks for sale on ebay that are blue.? What is the difference? Are they interchangeable?
> 

Green are the original SE SCSI.  Top speed 5/10Mb.  The blue are LVD SCSI  Top speed 20Mbs?  They are not the faster 160 or 320 SCSI.   You can put either in your A/S 1000 but the blue will be limited to the 5/10Mb speed of the SE SCSI bus.

> Is it possible (or even wise) to open one of the green carriers and change the disk out?
> 

Yes. I have done it many times replacing failed or just old disks with new(er).  As other have said, you have to carefully unlatch the cover.  There are four (4) latches, two on each side.  The plastic latches WILL break if you push too far or too hard (I know this because... ).  Then carefully slide them apart. The back side with the connector will come loose, tethered to the disk drive by a flexible mylar circuit.  Odds are that if it's a green can then it has a 50-pin SCSI connector on the drive.  If it's a blue can then odds are it's an 80-pin SCA type.

I had a 24-slot RA8000 with a bunch of blue cans that I put Seagate 18GB half-height drives in about 8 years ago.  I jsut gave it away since I was moving from Ohio to Texas last September.

> Doug
> 
> 


-- 
John H. Reinhardt

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Mon Feb  5 14:00:28 2018
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 20:00:28 +0000
Subject: [RESOLVED] Re: EPROM baking
In-Reply-To: <44108215-a070-52b4-24d4-8553d18d1dfa@sydex.com>
References: <20171213140834.GA3905@allie.home.misty.com>
 <CABGJBuegbvsi0cftLzksBGL7Kyp13Fk=5jFZ1AgciFsVkwy3Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR14MB1600987EA49FA320B6C07806A3350@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <20171221021850.GA4333@allie.home.misty.com>
 <20180205182030.GA31063@allie.home.misty.com>
 <44108215-a070-52b4-24d4-8553d18d1dfa@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <BN1PR0101MB075489316D9CD8F9F602242FEDFE0@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>

My EPROM Programmers all have a connection foir external power

specifically because sometimes USB can't provide the needed current.


bill


On 02/05/2018 02:06 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> On 02/05/2018 10:20 AM, Mark G Thomas via cctalk wrote:
>
>> 2) Many of the chips were failing to program because my Batronix
>>     programmer apparently requires more current than my USB port provides.
>>     This surprised me because I have been programming chips for years
>>     using this programmer on this computer port successfully, and this
>>     is the first I have had the problem. Using a Anker powered USB hub solved
>>     things. My Batronix programmer even arrived with a cheap powered hub
>>     when I ordered it, but I never used it because it was shipped with an
>>     incompatible wall wart, but looking at it in the box gave me the idea
>>     that this might be the issue.
> You should be aware that many "thin" Far East USB cables will not pass
> the full USB 1.5A current without substantial voltage drop.   I recently
> ran into this with a new LG portable DVD drive.  It refused to operate,
> even though I'd just taken it out of the box.   I replaced the "thin"
> USB cable with several other "thin" ones that I had with the same
> result.  Finally, in desperation, I located a "thick" USB cable, plugged
> the drive in, and discovered that it worked just fine.
>
> Moral:  There's a lot of garbage out there.
>
> Rant:  The whole scheme of supplying anything but low-current using USB
> is a terrible idea.  I have a similar gripe with barrel connectors,
> which don't seem to enforce any standard at all regarding polarity or AC
> vs. DC.
>
> For my own projects I've taken to using mini XLR connectors. Perhaps not
> optimal, but they're rugged enough.
>
> --Chuck
>
>


From billdegnan at gmail.com  Mon Feb  5 15:02:19 2018
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 16:02:19 -0500
Subject: [RESOLVED] Re: EPROM baking
In-Reply-To: <BN1PR0101MB075489316D9CD8F9F602242FEDFE0@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <20171213140834.GA3905@allie.home.misty.com>
 <CABGJBuegbvsi0cftLzksBGL7Kyp13Fk=5jFZ1AgciFsVkwy3Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR14MB1600987EA49FA320B6C07806A3350@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <20171221021850.GA4333@allie.home.misty.com>
 <20180205182030.GA31063@allie.home.misty.com>
 <44108215-a070-52b4-24d4-8553d18d1dfa@sydex.com>
 <BN1PR0101MB075489316D9CD8F9F602242FEDFE0@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBufF+WqwWLjKrpZ77qUzWozh7HWNzS6KDQ==c-gWtG47Xw@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
>
> On 02/05/2018 02:06 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> > On 02/05/2018 10:20 AM, Mark G Thomas via cctalk wrote:
> >
> >> 2) Many of the chips were failing to program because my Batronix
> >>     programmer apparently requires more current than my USB port
> provides.
> >>     This surprised me because I have been programming chips for years
> >>     using this programmer on this computer port successfully, and this
> >>     is the first I have had the problem. Using a Anker powered USB hub
> solved
> >>     things. My Batronix programmer even arrived with a cheap powered hub
> >>     when I ordered it, but I never used it because it was shipped with
> an
> >>     incompatible wall wart, but looking at it in the box gave me the
> idea
> >>     that this might be the issue.
> > You should be aware that many "thin" Far East USB cables will not pass
> > the full USB 1.5A current without substantial voltage drop.   I recently
> > ran into this with a new LG portable DVD drive.  It refused to operate,
> > even though I'd just taken it out of the box.   I replaced the "thin"
> > USB cable with several other "thin" ones that I had with the same
> > result.  Finally, in desperation, I located a "thick" USB cable, plugged
> > the drive in, and discovered that it worked just fine.
> >
> > Moral:  There's a lot of garbage out there.
> >
> > Rant:  The whole scheme of supplying anything but low-current using USB
> > is a terrible idea.  I have a similar gripe with barrel connectors,
> > which don't seem to enforce any standard at all regarding polarity or AC
> > vs. DC.
> >
> > For my own projects I've taken to using mini XLR connectors. Perhaps not
> > optimal, but they're rugged enough.
> >
> > --Chuck
>
> > My EPROM Programmers all have a connection foir external power
>
> specifically because sometimes USB can't provide the needed current.
>
>
> bill

I was going to say...I would not have thought any USB-powered prom
programmer to be the best solution.  I have two programmers both have their
own wall power connectors and they're reliable.  I am not saying that it
would not be possible that an USB-powered prom programmer would work, but
I'd personally want to stick with something with some legroom.  I always
measure my USB supplies and cables' output to separate out the ones that
don't provide enough umph from those that do.
Happy computing
Bill

From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Feb  5 18:00:51 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 16:00:51 -0800
Subject: [RESOLVED] Re: EPROM baking
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBufF+WqwWLjKrpZ77qUzWozh7HWNzS6KDQ==c-gWtG47Xw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20171213140834.GA3905@allie.home.misty.com>
 <CABGJBuegbvsi0cftLzksBGL7Kyp13Fk=5jFZ1AgciFsVkwy3Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR14MB1600987EA49FA320B6C07806A3350@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <20171221021850.GA4333@allie.home.misty.com>
 <20180205182030.GA31063@allie.home.misty.com>
 <44108215-a070-52b4-24d4-8553d18d1dfa@sydex.com>
 <BN1PR0101MB075489316D9CD8F9F602242FEDFE0@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CABGJBufF+WqwWLjKrpZ77qUzWozh7HWNzS6KDQ==c-gWtG47Xw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7a42254a-99c0-5268-0c83-699a1a1590fd@sydex.com>

On 02/05/2018 01:02 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:

> I was going to say...I would not have thought any USB-powered prom
> programmer to be the best solution.  I have two programmers both have their
> own wall power connectors and they're reliable.  I am not saying that it
> would not be possible that an USB-powered prom programmer would work, but
> I'd personally want to stick with something with some legroom.  I always
> measure my USB supplies and cables' output to separate out the ones that
> don't provide enough umph from those that do.
> Happy computing

I don't use one now, but I used to have a USB-powered programmer and it
worked okay for GALs and 27Cxxxx UV EPROMs as well as EEPROMs.
However, if I were using older parts, I'm not so sure.

The interesting thing is that upon opening the thing up, you could see
pads for a wall-wart barrel jack (unpopulated).   So who knows, perhaps
Bill's USB programmer is similarly equipped.

I still use an older Xeltek Superpro for most things.  It does the job.

--Chuck


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Feb  5 18:06:01 2018
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon,  5 Feb 2018 19:06:01 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Trouble installing 4.3 BSD+NFS Wisconsin Unix
Message-ID: <20180206000601.2ED5B18C08B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

Can anyone help 'Darkstar' with this:

  http://gunkies.org/wiki/Talk:Installing_4.3_BSD%2BNFS_Wisconsin_Unix

	Noel

From phb.hfx at gmail.com  Mon Feb  5 18:16:07 2018
From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 20:16:07 -0400
Subject: [RESOLVED] Re: EPROM baking
In-Reply-To: <7a42254a-99c0-5268-0c83-699a1a1590fd@sydex.com>
References: <20171213140834.GA3905@allie.home.misty.com>
 <CABGJBuegbvsi0cftLzksBGL7Kyp13Fk=5jFZ1AgciFsVkwy3Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR14MB1600987EA49FA320B6C07806A3350@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <20171221021850.GA4333@allie.home.misty.com>
 <20180205182030.GA31063@allie.home.misty.com>
 <44108215-a070-52b4-24d4-8553d18d1dfa@sydex.com>
 <BN1PR0101MB075489316D9CD8F9F602242FEDFE0@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <CABGJBufF+WqwWLjKrpZ77qUzWozh7HWNzS6KDQ==c-gWtG47Xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7a42254a-99c0-5268-0c83-699a1a1590fd@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <3a5713a5-cad6-f0a3-96b8-78b8d8e540b7@gmail.com>



On 2018-02-05 8:00 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> On 02/05/2018 01:02 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
>
>> I was going to say...I would not have thought any USB-powered prom
>> programmer to be the best solution.  I have two programmers both have their
>> own wall power connectors and they're reliable.  I am not saying that it
>> would not be possible that an USB-powered prom programmer would work, but
>> I'd personally want to stick with something with some legroom.  I always
>> measure my USB supplies and cables' output to separate out the ones that
>> don't provide enough umph from those that do.
>> Happy computing
> I don't use one now, but I used to have a USB-powered programmer and it
> worked okay for GALs and 27Cxxxx UV EPROMs as well as EEPROMs.
> However, if I were using older parts, I'm not so sure.
>
> The interesting thing is that upon opening the thing up, you could see
> pads for a wall-wart barrel jack (unpopulated).   So who knows, perhaps
> Bill's USB programmer is similarly equipped.
>
> I still use an older Xeltek Superpro for most things.  It does the job.
>
> --Chuck
>
I have a USB programmer I never use, the electronics in it where too 
weak to drive NMOS EPROMs even with external power but was ok with CMOS 
parts.? I have an old Xeltex Unipro and a Superpro as well as a more 
mdern parallel port Xeltex superpro/280 and a Advin badged USB Xeltex 
that uses external power they are all much more reliable but I have 
found a couple programming algorithms for ? small AMD PLDs that are 
broken.? The old Unipro came in handy when I needed to program some 
bipolar PROMs.

Paul.

From mtapley at swri.edu  Mon Feb  5 19:56:16 2018
From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 01:56:16 +0000
Subject: Password reset for ~1998 AIX on RS/6000?
In-Reply-To: <307afa0e-e2b3-2a8b-d4be-7ff25ac940b3@gmail.com>
References: <92b4de6a-b537-4bfb-a1fd-1ebe8133f11a@comcast.net>
 <094b01d39b87$f01255a0$d03700e0$@gmail.com>
 <9988690B-CAB3-4784-8AE6-24CA91726725@swri.edu>
 <307afa0e-e2b3-2a8b-d4be-7ff25ac940b3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EC17119A-A6D1-49C7-AB2B-98206725D0E2@swri.edu>

On Feb 3, 2018, at 9:08 AM, Jules Richardson via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 02/01/2018 02:28 PM, Tapley, Mark via cctech wrote:
>> Is there a standard procedure for recovering lost passwords for these
>> systems, or for resetting passwords? I do have physical access to the
>> machine; it?s possible I can find an AIX install disk but it?s *highly*
>> desirable to preserve the contents of the existing hard drive.
> 
> I want to say that my machine's a 43P-140, too (and I actually have a pair of them, but one has some form of hardware fault)
> 
> Anyway, for mine, I seem to remember putting the drive into one of my SGIs (I didn't have a PC with SCSI on this side of the Atlantic) and writing a little script which read the drive block-by-block, saving any to the SGI which looked like they might be file fragments containing root password entries.
> 
> That gave me ten or so blocks, which I then moved over to a Linux PC (which had a little more CPU power than the SGI). AIX's password file format is a little different to that of everyone else (of course), so I had to tweak the data to get it into the right format. From there, it was just a case of running a Unix password cracker and it just took a minute or two to find the root password.
> 
> I forget now which version of AIX I have; I remember that the password mechanism changed at some point (and 99% of the information I found at the time via Google related to a different version; it was hard to find details on the one that I have)
> 
> cheers
> 
> Jules

All,
	One last update, just in case you are curious.

	Although ftpd is disabled on the RS/6000 so at least the weakness Doug pointed out would not have let me in, his post convinced me our help desk would frown at putting it on our network. (And, although the suggestions to put the disk on a modern machine to read are good, I?m a bit scared of the idea of disassembling a functioning system - I?m not that great a technician?. anyway the install CD and IBM technote referenced earlier were enough to get me root access.)

	Rather than working through smit/smitty to change the IP address and putting the machine onto our network, I instead used a straight-through ethernet cable to connect it directly (no hub) to my 1 GHz Aluminum Powerbook G4. (The ethernet port on the laptop is auto-sensing, else I?d have needed a crossover cable.) I set the IP address manually on the G4 ethernet to be only a few bits away from the RS/6000?s existing IP address (per ?ifconfig" and set the netmask to be the same. Mac OS X.4 on the G4 does have ftpd running, so I was able to ftp from the RS/6000 to the G4 and push .tar archives across. I remembered to command ?binary? in FTP before starting the transfer.
	Once on the G4, ?tar -xvf <filename>? extracted the archives, apparently successfully (although I have not tested any of the binaries, they are of secondary importance). Of note, double-clicking on the .tar did *not* succeed in expanding it.

	I reconfigured the G4 back to its normal ethernet setting and put it back on the network, then used TenFourFox (thanks again, Cameron!) to push the .tar files up to our institute large-file http transfer service, then sent links to the Goddard and other folks who needed them. 

	I?m still hanging fire on confirmation that the files made it there OK, but I?m ?><? this close to declaring total success on this operation. 

	Next step, hopefully, re-vitalizing the RAD-6000s we have had in cold storage (in orbit) for 12 years!

https://image.gsfc.nasa.gov
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2018/nasa-s-newly-rediscovered-image-mission-provided-key-aurora-research

	Again, many many thanks for the suggestions and help!
														- Mark


From mtapley at swri.edu  Mon Feb  5 19:56:16 2018
From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 01:56:16 +0000
Subject: Password reset for ~1998 AIX on RS/6000?
In-Reply-To: <307afa0e-e2b3-2a8b-d4be-7ff25ac940b3@gmail.com>
References: <92b4de6a-b537-4bfb-a1fd-1ebe8133f11a@comcast.net>
 <094b01d39b87$f01255a0$d03700e0$@gmail.com>
 <9988690B-CAB3-4784-8AE6-24CA91726725@swri.edu>
 <307afa0e-e2b3-2a8b-d4be-7ff25ac940b3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EC17119A-A6D1-49C7-AB2B-98206725D0E2@swri.edu>

On Feb 3, 2018, at 9:08 AM, Jules Richardson via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 02/01/2018 02:28 PM, Tapley, Mark via cctech wrote:
>> Is there a standard procedure for recovering lost passwords for these
>> systems, or for resetting passwords? I do have physical access to the
>> machine; it?s possible I can find an AIX install disk but it?s *highly*
>> desirable to preserve the contents of the existing hard drive.
> 
> I want to say that my machine's a 43P-140, too (and I actually have a pair of them, but one has some form of hardware fault)
> 
> Anyway, for mine, I seem to remember putting the drive into one of my SGIs (I didn't have a PC with SCSI on this side of the Atlantic) and writing a little script which read the drive block-by-block, saving any to the SGI which looked like they might be file fragments containing root password entries.
> 
> That gave me ten or so blocks, which I then moved over to a Linux PC (which had a little more CPU power than the SGI). AIX's password file format is a little different to that of everyone else (of course), so I had to tweak the data to get it into the right format. From there, it was just a case of running a Unix password cracker and it just took a minute or two to find the root password.
> 
> I forget now which version of AIX I have; I remember that the password mechanism changed at some point (and 99% of the information I found at the time via Google related to a different version; it was hard to find details on the one that I have)
> 
> cheers
> 
> Jules

All,
	One last update, just in case you are curious.

	Although ftpd is disabled on the RS/6000 so at least the weakness Doug pointed out would not have let me in, his post convinced me our help desk would frown at putting it on our network. (And, although the suggestions to put the disk on a modern machine to read are good, I?m a bit scared of the idea of disassembling a functioning system - I?m not that great a technician?. anyway the install CD and IBM technote referenced earlier were enough to get me root access.)

	Rather than working through smit/smitty to change the IP address and putting the machine onto our network, I instead used a straight-through ethernet cable to connect it directly (no hub) to my 1 GHz Aluminum Powerbook G4. (The ethernet port on the laptop is auto-sensing, else I?d have needed a crossover cable.) I set the IP address manually on the G4 ethernet to be only a few bits away from the RS/6000?s existing IP address (per ?ifconfig" and set the netmask to be the same. Mac OS X.4 on the G4 does have ftpd running, so I was able to ftp from the RS/6000 to the G4 and push .tar archives across. I remembered to command ?binary? in FTP before starting the transfer.
	Once on the G4, ?tar -xvf <filename>? extracted the archives, apparently successfully (although I have not tested any of the binaries, they are of secondary importance). Of note, double-clicking on the .tar did *not* succeed in expanding it.

	I reconfigured the G4 back to its normal ethernet setting and put it back on the network, then used TenFourFox (thanks again, Cameron!) to push the .tar files up to our institute large-file http transfer service, then sent links to the Goddard and other folks who needed them. 

	I?m still hanging fire on confirmation that the files made it there OK, but I?m ?><? this close to declaring total success on this operation. 

	Next step, hopefully, re-vitalizing the RAD-6000s we have had in cold storage (in orbit) for 12 years!

https://image.gsfc.nasa.gov
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2018/nasa-s-newly-rediscovered-image-mission-provided-key-aurora-research

	Again, many many thanks for the suggestions and help!
														- Mark


From cube1 at charter.net  Mon Feb  5 21:47:56 2018
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 21:47:56 -0600
Subject: Trouble installing 4.3 BSD+NFS Wisconsin Unix
In-Reply-To: <20180206000601.2ED5B18C08B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20180206000601.2ED5B18C08B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <828bcf70-63cd-0d16-27ec-7dbeefb613aa@charter.net>

No, at least not right now, but as someone who attended UW (long before
this distro was made), I find it interesting.

JRJ

On 2/5/2018 6:06 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
> Can anyone help 'Darkstar' with this:
> 
>   http://gunkies.org/wiki/Talk:Installing_4.3_BSD%2BNFS_Wisconsin_Unix
> 
> 	Noel
> 

From cube1 at charter.net  Mon Feb  5 22:06:30 2018
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 22:06:30 -0600
Subject: A couple of RL02 questions
In-Reply-To: <CAC20j8RUXQHpeg3hk537H-V-pp+fPMjsj231qkY12YwxHVp+0A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAC20j8RUXQHpeg3hk537H-V-pp+fPMjsj231qkY12YwxHVp+0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b3d1f3c8-ab73-559e-b68b-db710156d455@charter.net>

On 1/28/2018 10:56 PM, Marc Howard via cctalk wrote:

> The second question has to do with rack mounting.  I want to mount this in
> a H960 cabinet but will obviously need to slide it out to replace packs.
> All the unit has is a thin rail on both sides that is riveted to the unit.
> It looks like chassis slides were there originally.  Does anyone have
> either the DEC part # for the slides or a contemporary part # for one that
> will work?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Marc
> 

Assuming that they are the same as the RL01:

12-13686-00-B-L  (left)
12-13686-00-B-R	 (right)

(The IPB manuals are, I expect, available on bitsavers?)

I think I may have an extra slide set, as well (one more than the number
of drives I have not currently mounted.  ;) )

Contact me off list if you are interested in a purchase (US only, I guess)


From spacewar at gmail.com  Mon Feb  5 22:56:06 2018
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 21:56:06 -0700
Subject: [RESOLVED] Re: EPROM baking
In-Reply-To: <44108215-a070-52b4-24d4-8553d18d1dfa@sydex.com>
References: <20171213140834.GA3905@allie.home.misty.com>
 <CABGJBuegbvsi0cftLzksBGL7Kyp13Fk=5jFZ1AgciFsVkwy3Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR14MB1600987EA49FA320B6C07806A3350@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <20171221021850.GA4333@allie.home.misty.com>
 <20180205182030.GA31063@allie.home.misty.com>
 <44108215-a070-52b4-24d4-8553d18d1dfa@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTRx_4AYN8oVNyZ9mvJSe4Ec0-DXdNt1_FQRxGOZzxvwNA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 12:06 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> You should be aware that many "thin" Far East USB cables will not pass
> the full USB 1.5A current without substantial voltage drop.
>

"Full USB current" is only 0.5A for USB 2, and 0.9A for USB 3. Any USB
device that needs more current than that should be using the Battery
Charging, Power Delivery, or Type C options, or some combination thereof,
and suitable cabling.

However, I don't disagree with your assertion that there are a lot of
really crappy USB cables out there.

From healyzh at aracnet.com  Mon Feb  5 23:07:17 2018
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh at aracnet.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2018 21:07:17 -0800
Subject: CLASSICCMP vs. RackSpace or Gmail
Message-ID: <f93fb01a3f88b25a1d7f6ebdf1f9870f@aracnet.com>

Is anyone able to get email from this list via either CLASSICCMP or 
RackSpace?  When I first changed over to using the healyzh at avanthar.com 
address, I was able to receive email from the list for a short time.  
I've even tried to subscribe with a gmail account, and no luck.  My 
aracnet address is no longer reliable, and will not willingly be 
renewed.

Zane



From healyzh at aracnet.com  Mon Feb  5 23:09:13 2018
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh at aracnet.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2018 21:09:13 -0800
Subject: CLASSICCMP vs. RackSpace or Gmail
In-Reply-To: <f93fb01a3f88b25a1d7f6ebdf1f9870f@aracnet.com>
References: <f93fb01a3f88b25a1d7f6ebdf1f9870f@aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <37096c7f5b85ad64ef684342d4741468@aracnet.com>

On 2018-02-05 21:07, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
> Is anyone able to get email from this list via either CLASSICCMP or
> RackSpace?  When I first changed over to using the
> healyzh at avanthar.com address, I was able to receive email from the
> list for a short time.  I've even tried to subscribe with a gmail
> account, and no luck.  My aracnet address is no longer reliable, and
> will not willingly be renewed.
> 
> Zane

And obviously I meant to ask, is anyone able to get email from this list 
via either gmail or an email account hosted by RackSpace?

Zane



From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com  Mon Feb  5 23:11:01 2018
From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 05:11:01 +0000
Subject: CLASSICCMP vs. RackSpace or Gmail
In-Reply-To: <37096c7f5b85ad64ef684342d4741468@aracnet.com>
References: <f93fb01a3f88b25a1d7f6ebdf1f9870f@aracnet.com>
 <37096c7f5b85ad64ef684342d4741468@aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <CAHkUCCx_rEX0LWDqv0uZQh3NbpgnMisrv5MqkdyWeKdGgo43Jw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 5:09 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> On 2018-02-05 21:07, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:

> And obviously I meant to ask, is anyone able to get email from this list via
> either gmail or an email account hosted by RackSpace?

I get cctalk via gmail with no problems (AFAIK).

-tony

From healyzh at aracnet.com  Mon Feb  5 23:14:29 2018
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh at aracnet.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2018 21:14:29 -0800
Subject: CLASSICCMP vs. RackSpace or Gmail
In-Reply-To: <CAHkUCCx_rEX0LWDqv0uZQh3NbpgnMisrv5MqkdyWeKdGgo43Jw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f93fb01a3f88b25a1d7f6ebdf1f9870f@aracnet.com>
 <37096c7f5b85ad64ef684342d4741468@aracnet.com>
 <CAHkUCCx_rEX0LWDqv0uZQh3NbpgnMisrv5MqkdyWeKdGgo43Jw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f8d3cb419d8ed75c23c68ec91d0b91dd@aracnet.com>

On 2018-02-05 21:11, Tony Duell wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 5:09 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> On 2018-02-05 21:07, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> And obviously I meant to ask, is anyone able to get email from this 
>> list via
>> either gmail or an email account hosted by RackSpace?
> 
> I get cctalk via gmail with no problems (AFAIK).
> 
> -tony

That's good news, hopefully it's just taking a while for my subscription 
(via gmail) to go through.

Zane


From jwsmail at jwsss.com  Tue Feb  6 00:09:23 2018
From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 22:09:23 -0800
Subject: CLASSICCMP vs. RackSpace or Gmail
In-Reply-To: <f93fb01a3f88b25a1d7f6ebdf1f9870f@aracnet.com>
References: <f93fb01a3f88b25a1d7f6ebdf1f9870f@aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <cec26587-987d-8e79-618d-dc3ef6dac446@jwsss.com>



On 2/5/2018 9:07 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
> Is anyone able to get email from this list via either CLASSICCMP or 
> RackSpace?? When I first changed over to using the 
> healyzh at avanthar.com address, I was able to receive email from the 
> list for a short time.? I've even tried to subscribe with a gmail 
> account, and no luck.? My aracnet address is no longer reliable, and 
> will not willingly be renewed.
>
> Zane
I'm subscribed twice, once from this personal domain, and also from my 
gmail account which seems to be clunking along archiving everything on 
google for free (for me).? No recommendation about signing up now, may 
have some rating the list uses to require approval, etc., and Jay is 
busy as hell?? Speculating on that.

thanks
Jim

From starbase89 at gmail.com  Tue Feb  6 00:28:56 2018
From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 01:28:56 -0500
Subject: CLASSICCMP vs. RackSpace or Gmail
In-Reply-To: <cec26587-987d-8e79-618d-dc3ef6dac446@jwsss.com>
References: <f93fb01a3f88b25a1d7f6ebdf1f9870f@aracnet.com>
 <cec26587-987d-8e79-618d-dc3ef6dac446@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <CAOUs0ux3faHEOXDfBq3m+bU0=eLjyDR4GzGZ4oL7eTkR+-cZYg@mail.gmail.com>

A few months ago I stopped getting messages and ended up getting yhis
address booted from the list because of excessive bounces after
reactivating three times. Though straight away I signed back up and no
issues since.

Joe G

<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
Virus-free.
www.avg.com
<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 1:09 AM, jim stephens via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
>
> On 2/5/2018 9:07 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>
>> Is anyone able to get email from this list via either CLASSICCMP or
>> RackSpace?  When I first changed over to using the healyzh at avanthar.com
>> address, I was able to receive email from the list for a short time.  I've
>> even tried to subscribe with a gmail account, and no luck.  My aracnet
>> address is no longer reliable, and will not willingly be renewed.
>>
>> Zane
>>
> I'm subscribed twice, once from this personal domain, and also from my
> gmail account which seems to be clunking along archiving everything on
> google for free (for me).  No recommendation about signing up now, may have
> some rating the list uses to require approval, etc., and Jay is busy as
> hell?  Speculating on that.
>
> thanks
> Jim
>

From kspt.tor at gmail.com  Tue Feb  6 01:54:42 2018
From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 08:54:42 +0100
Subject: CLASSICCMP vs. RackSpace or Gmail
Message-ID: <CAL1Jhhx+f2K1Az+Tuv4ZCOOmP0Ur43usLrDrctq=WE9mzCLr4g@mail.gmail.com>

On 6 February 2018 at 06:09, Zane Healy via cctalk
> And obviously I meant to ask, is anyone able to get email from this list via
> either gmail or an email account hosted by RackSpace?

I've always used gmail with the list. There used to be a problem with
automatic de-subscription due to 'excessive bounces', that problem
went away after the list was modified to not show 'From' addresses
directly. Since then the gmail/list combination has worked perfectly.

From kspt.tor at gmail.com  Tue Feb  6 02:05:12 2018
From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 09:05:12 +0100
Subject: [RESOLVED] Re: EPROM baking
Message-ID: <CAL1JhhxZnY2oenYhbVtorw7gxO4WqN0QTLL2-NcCwk3dK=rfzQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 5 February 2018 at 20:06, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> I have a similar gripe with barrel connectors,
> which don't seem to enforce any standard at all regarding polarity or AC
> vs. DC.

.. which led me to accidentally power a USB hub with 12V instead of 5V
- the power supplies looked the same, had the same plug, and I
couldn't read the tiny writing on the warts. That blew the nicest
notebook PC I've ever found - I bought it in Japan at a special price,
the normal price is out of my league.

Since then I have bought a Dymo and, armed with a magnifying glass,
went through all the chargers and warts I own and labelled them. Which
I should have done *before* the accident of course. But what if there
was some kind of standard for barrel connectors instead.. sigh.

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Tue Feb  6 03:40:09 2018
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 09:40:09 -0000
Subject: CLASSICCMP vs. RackSpace or Gmail
In-Reply-To: <f93fb01a3f88b25a1d7f6ebdf1f9870f@aracnet.com>
References: <f93fb01a3f88b25a1d7f6ebdf1f9870f@aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <06af01d39f2e$7b7789e0$72669da0$@gmail.com>

Zane,
 I have few problems with GMAIL but I do have a couple of rules that route
these e-mails to a separate folder, never to spam.
Dave

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane
Healy
> via cctalk
> Sent: 06 February 2018 05:07
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Cc: healyzh at avanthar.com
> Subject: CLASSICCMP vs. RackSpace or Gmail
> 
> Is anyone able to get email from this list via either CLASSICCMP or
> RackSpace?  When I first changed over to using the healyzh at avanthar.com
> address, I was able to receive email from the list for a short time.
> I've even tried to subscribe with a gmail account, and no luck.  My
aracnet
> address is no longer reliable, and will not willingly be renewed.
> 
> Zane
> 



From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Tue Feb  6 01:52:39 2018
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 08:52:39 +0100
Subject: Help identify "multichip module"
In-Reply-To: <2BD9C858-43DD-4D99-9760-16B42716A175@vmssoftware.com>
References: <20180203174957.GE1424@Update.UU.SE>
 <20180203195152.GF1424@Update.UU.SE>
 <2BD9C858-43DD-4D99-9760-16B42716A175@vmssoftware.com>
Message-ID: <20180206075239.GG1424@Update.UU.SE>

On Mon, Feb 05, 2018 at 11:37:27AM +0100, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote:
> 
> I have seen these before, in another life as an audio/video technician. 
> These plug into the video processor board on older Grass Valley 
> equipment, like the 100 and 200 series production switchers. I believe - 
> but this is where I enter the realm of speculation - they are ROMs 
> containing the code for different effects. The utility processor board 
> has a DEC J11 processor on it.
> 
> Camiel.
>     


Thank you Camiel. In the bag of chips was also a J11. I guess we now know 
what has been scrapped.

/P

From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Tue Feb  6 02:14:35 2018
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 09:14:35 +0100
Subject: Help identify "multichip module"
In-Reply-To: <2BD9C858-43DD-4D99-9760-16B42716A175@vmssoftware.com>
References: <20180203174957.GE1424@Update.UU.SE>
 <20180203195152.GF1424@Update.UU.SE>
 <2BD9C858-43DD-4D99-9760-16B42716A175@vmssoftware.com>
Message-ID: <20180206081434.GH1424@Update.UU.SE>

On Mon, Feb 05, 2018 at 11:37:27AM +0100, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote:
>     On Sat, Feb 03, 2018 at 06:49:57PM +0100, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk wrote:
>     > Hi
>     > 
>     > I got this picture sent to me with zero context. Does anyone recognize 
>     > what it is?
>     > 
>     > http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/identify/mystery_chips.jpeg
>     > 
>     > Thank you,
>     > Pontus.
> 
> I have seen these before, in another life as an audio/video technician. These plug into the video processor board on older Grass Valley equipment, like the 100 and 200 series production switchers. I believe - but this is where I enter the realm of speculation - they are ROMs containing the code for different effects. The utility processor board has a DEC J11 processor on it.
> 
> Camiel.
>     
> 
> 

It looks like a pretty neat toy to play with:

http://meci.com/electronics/grass-valley-group-video-production-switch-control-panel-100-n-frame-087610-00.html

If you happen to stumble upon one...

Cheers,
Pontus.

From systems.glitch at gmail.com  Tue Feb  6 07:29:34 2018
From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 08:29:34 -0500
Subject: CLASSICCMP vs. RackSpace or Gmail
In-Reply-To: <06af01d39f2e$7b7789e0$72669da0$@gmail.com>
References: <f93fb01a3f88b25a1d7f6ebdf1f9870f@aracnet.com>
 <06af01d39f2e$7b7789e0$72669da0$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA+dub+d77vYG2qDSWRk=F5X_WrVnYDKb_LokBY9QnxA-d095Q@mail.gmail.com>

Same as Dave, using GMail but I'm filtering into IMAP folders.

Thanks,
Jonathan

On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 4:40 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> Zane,
>  I have few problems with GMAIL but I do have a couple of rules that route
> these e-mails to a separate folder, never to spam.
> Dave
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane
> Healy
> > via cctalk
> > Sent: 06 February 2018 05:07
> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> > Cc: healyzh at avanthar.com
> > Subject: CLASSICCMP vs. RackSpace or Gmail
> >
> > Is anyone able to get email from this list via either CLASSICCMP or
> > RackSpace?  When I first changed over to using the healyzh at avanthar.com
> > address, I was able to receive email from the list for a short time.
> > I've even tried to subscribe with a gmail account, and no luck.  My
> aracnet
> > address is no longer reliable, and will not willingly be renewed.
> >
> > Zane
> >
>
>
>

From healyzh at aracnet.com  Tue Feb  6 09:12:44 2018
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh at aracnet.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2018 07:12:44 -0800
Subject: CLASSICCMP vs. RackSpace or Gmail
In-Reply-To: <CAOUs0ux3faHEOXDfBq3m+bU0=eLjyDR4GzGZ4oL7eTkR+-cZYg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f93fb01a3f88b25a1d7f6ebdf1f9870f@aracnet.com>
 <cec26587-987d-8e79-618d-dc3ef6dac446@jwsss.com>
 <CAOUs0ux3faHEOXDfBq3m+bU0=eLjyDR4GzGZ4oL7eTkR+-cZYg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <472a1064f501cd67cfc93a9e71ce48a2@aracnet.com>

On 2018-02-05 22:28, Joe Giliberti via cctalk wrote:
> A few months ago I stopped getting messages and ended up getting yhis
> address booted from the list because of excessive bounces after
> reactivating three times. Though straight away I signed back up and no
> issues since.
> 
> Joe G

That's the joke, if any email address should be blocked, it's this one.  
It was down for quite a bit, and then it took even longer for to get 
access to it.

Part of my problem with the Avanthar address is that I can't remember 
the password to get into my email settings, AND, I can't get password 
reminders.

Zane


From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Feb  6 09:28:38 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 07:28:38 -0800
Subject: [RESOLVED] Re: EPROM baking
In-Reply-To: <CAL1JhhxZnY2oenYhbVtorw7gxO4WqN0QTLL2-NcCwk3dK=rfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL1JhhxZnY2oenYhbVtorw7gxO4WqN0QTLL2-NcCwk3dK=rfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8517d1a5-e32c-464f-e217-6934038aae47@sydex.com>

On 02/06/2018 12:05 AM, Tor Arntsen via cctalk wrote:

> .. which led me to accidentally power a USB hub with 12V instead of
> 5V - the power supplies looked the same, had the same plug, and I 
> couldn't read the tiny writing on the warts. That blew the nicest 
> notebook PC I've ever found - I bought it in Japan at a special
> price, the normal price is out of my league.


I've done worse--used an AC-supply wall wart on a piece of equipment.
Poor thing didn't stand a chance.

You'd have thought that after all these years, some sort of keying
system would have been developed, but I guess not.

--Chuck

From healyzh at aracnet.com  Tue Feb  6 09:55:38 2018
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh at aracnet.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2018 07:55:38 -0800
Subject: CLASSICCMP vs. RackSpace or Gmail
In-Reply-To: <CAOUs0ux3faHEOXDfBq3m+bU0=eLjyDR4GzGZ4oL7eTkR+-cZYg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f93fb01a3f88b25a1d7f6ebdf1f9870f@aracnet.com>
 <cec26587-987d-8e79-618d-dc3ef6dac446@jwsss.com>
 <CAOUs0ux3faHEOXDfBq3m+bU0=eLjyDR4GzGZ4oL7eTkR+-cZYg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <472a1064f501cd67cfc93a9e71ce48a2@aracnet.com>

On 2018-02-05 22:28, Joe Giliberti via cctalk wrote:
> A few months ago I stopped getting messages and ended up getting yhis
> address booted from the list because of excessive bounces after
> reactivating three times. Though straight away I signed back up and no
> issues since.
> 
> Joe G

That's the joke, if any email address should be blocked, it's this one.  
It was down for quite a bit, and then it took even longer for to get 
access to it.

Part of my problem with the Avanthar address is that I can't remember 
the password to get into my email settings, AND, I can't get password 
reminders.

Zane


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Tue Feb  6 09:57:50 2018
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh at aracnet.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2018 07:57:50 -0800
Subject: CLASSICCMP vs. RackSpace or Gmail
In-Reply-To: <cec26587-987d-8e79-618d-dc3ef6dac446@jwsss.com>
References: <f93fb01a3f88b25a1d7f6ebdf1f9870f@aracnet.com>
 <cec26587-987d-8e79-618d-dc3ef6dac446@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <cad815f347e63a8bc64af071c8566c9c@aracnet.com>

On 2018-02-05 22:09, jim stephens via cctalk wrote:
> I'm subscribed twice, once from this personal domain, and also from my
> gmail account which seems to be clunking along archiving everything on
> google for free (for me).? No recommendation about signing up now, may
> have some rating the list uses to require approval, etc., and Jay is
> busy as hell?? Speculating on that.
> 
> thanks
> Jim

My assumption/hope is that Jay is simply busy.  I'm working on a couple 
projects where access to CLASSICCMP would be nice, and this email 
address is intermittent.

Zane



From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net  Tue Feb  6 09:37:15 2018
From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 10:37:15 -0500
Subject: VMS 8.4 Alpha Hobbyist disk images
In-Reply-To: <92b4de6a-b537-4bfb-a1fd-1ebe8133f11a@comcast.net>
References: <92b4de6a-b537-4bfb-a1fd-1ebe8133f11a@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <b4d257fd-c590-a529-619a-3375b45bf787@comcast.net>

On 2/1/2018 12:55 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote:
> I'm getting an Alphaserver 1000a and wanted to install VMS 8.4 - 
> hobbyist license from CD.
>
> So, I went to the folder on my PC where I have the 8.4 hobbyist 
> distribution.? There are 3 ISO files; ALPHA084, ALPHA084LP1 and 
> ALPHA084LP2.
>
> I thought I would burn these to CD and up and away.? However, Windows 
> 7 balks and says, 'The selected disc image file isn't valid'.
>
> Is it Windows 7 or is there something I'm missing?? Is the CD on the 
> Alphaserver 2048 byte block size or 512?
>
> Doug
>
>
Progress: I was able to burn the hobbyist Alpha OpenVMS ISO images to CD 
using linux.

Debian Liunx - you have to install cdrskin and the command I used was $ 
cdrskin --devices -data ALPHA084.ISO

This is on a DELL desktop with one CD/DVD drive, instead of --devices I 
could have used dev=/dev/sr0.

I was able to mount and explore these CD's on the Alphaserver 1000a.

Doug


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Tue Feb  6 10:03:53 2018
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh at aracnet.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2018 08:03:53 -0800
Subject: VMS 8.4 Alpha Hobbyist disk images
In-Reply-To: <b4d257fd-c590-a529-619a-3375b45bf787@comcast.net>
References: <92b4de6a-b537-4bfb-a1fd-1ebe8133f11a@comcast.net>
 <b4d257fd-c590-a529-619a-3375b45bf787@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <b8a92d571ccb23374565e93207de43a9@aracnet.com>

On 2018-02-06 07:37, Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote:
> On 2/1/2018 12:55 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote:
>> I'm getting an Alphaserver 1000a and wanted to install VMS 8.4 - 
>> hobbyist license from CD.
>> 
>> So, I went to the folder on my PC where I have the 8.4 hobbyist 
>> distribution.? There are 3 ISO files; ALPHA084, ALPHA084LP1 and 
>> ALPHA084LP2.
>> 
>> I thought I would burn these to CD and up and away.? However, Windows 
>> 7 balks and says, 'The selected disc image file isn't valid'.
>> 
>> Is it Windows 7 or is there something I'm missing?? Is the CD on the 
>> Alphaserver 2048 byte block size or 512?
>> 
>> Doug
>> 
>> 
> Progress: I was able to burn the hobbyist Alpha OpenVMS ISO images to
> CD using linux.
> 
> Debian Liunx - you have to install cdrskin and the command I used was
> $ cdrskin --devices -data ALPHA084.ISO
> 
> This is on a DELL desktop with one CD/DVD drive, instead of --devices
> I could have used dev=/dev/sr0.
> 
> I was able to mount and explore these CD's on the Alphaserver 1000a.
> 
> Doug

Congrats on the new system.

I know I've done this with Toast on my Mac, and I think I've done with 
Nero on the PC.  I've also used one of those programs to make CD's for 
my PDP-11's, including install CD's for RSX-11M+ and RT-11.  I didn't 
manage a RSTS/E install CD.

I'm using an interesting option on my VMS Cluster.  I have simh/VAX 
sharing out two different ConDists to my VMS cluster.  Though I need to 
burn an 8.4 CD, as I'm still at 8.3 on my Alpha.

Zane



From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Tue Feb  6 10:10:17 2018
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2018 16:10:17 +0000 (WET)
Subject: Foolproof power supply interfaces
In-Reply-To: <8517d1a5-e32c-464f-e217-6934038aae47@sydex.com>
References: <CAL1JhhxZnY2oenYhbVtorw7gxO4WqN0QTLL2-NcCwk3dK=rfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01QOQK0O1O2S003AC7@beyondthepale.ie>

>
> I've done worse--used an AC-supply wall wart on a piece of equipment.
> Poor thing didn't stand a chance.
> 
> You'd have thought that after all these years, some sort of keying
> system would have been developed, but I guess not.
>

I'm not sure it would help.  What do we get when we try to make things
foolproof?

A friend asked me to fix his mains powered radio which he said used to work
but had stopped working.  I thought the mains lead looked rather flimsey but
I said I would take a look at it anyway.  I opened it up and found that the
power went directly onto the PCB where there were some damaged tracks.  There
was no sign of a transformer or other evidence of a power supply section.

I asked my friend if anybody else had done anything to the radio before
he asked me to look at it.  He said there used to be a big black heavy lump
of a moulded plug on the end of the mains lead but he got someone to cut it
off and change it for a normal sized plug because it wouldn't fit into the
socket he wanted to use it with which was too close to his worktop.  He
didn't recall hearing a bang when he first plugged in the new arrangement.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Tue Feb  6 11:10:10 2018
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 11:10:10 -0600
Subject: CLASSICCMP vs. RackSpace or Gmail
In-Reply-To: <cad815f347e63a8bc64af071c8566c9c@aracnet.com>
References: <f93fb01a3f88b25a1d7f6ebdf1f9870f@aracnet.com>
 <cec26587-987d-8e79-618d-dc3ef6dac446@jwsss.com>
 <cad815f347e63a8bc64af071c8566c9c@aracnet.com>
Message-ID: <001001d39f6d$584b2e10$08e18a30$@classiccmp.org>

I suspect I must be missing something. I haven't gotten a request/question from Zane or Jim about anything lately.

As Doc said.... "Please state the nature of your emergency" :>

Let me know what you need and I'll be happy to help.

J

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane Healy via cctalk
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 9:58 AM
To: jim stephens <jwsmail at jwsss.com>; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: CLASSICCMP vs. RackSpace or Gmail

On 2018-02-05 22:09, jim stephens via cctalk wrote:
> I'm subscribed twice, once from this personal domain, and also from my 
> gmail account which seems to be clunking along archiving everything on 
> google for free (for me).  No recommendation about signing up now, may 
> have some rating the list uses to require approval, etc., and Jay is 
> busy as hell?  Speculating on that.
> 
> thanks
> Jim

My assumption/hope is that Jay is simply busy.  I'm working on a couple projects where access to CLASSICCMP would be nice, and this email address is intermittent.

Zane




From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Feb  6 11:38:44 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 09:38:44 -0800
Subject: Foolproof power supply interfaces
In-Reply-To: <01QOQK0O1O2S003AC7@beyondthepale.ie>
References: <CAL1JhhxZnY2oenYhbVtorw7gxO4WqN0QTLL2-NcCwk3dK=rfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01QOQK0O1O2S003AC7@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <15bd5973-5530-d908-347d-830d2d0f5466@sydex.com>

On 02/06/2018 08:10 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote:

> I asked my friend if anybody else had done anything to the radio before
> he asked me to look at it.  He said there used to be a big black heavy lump
> of a moulded plug on the end of the mains lead but he got someone to cut it
> off and change it for a normal sized plug because it wouldn't fit into the
> socket he wanted to use it with which was too close to his worktop.  He
> didn't recall hearing a bang when he first plugged in the new arrangement.

Probably was a quiet "fizz" and a puff of smoke...

Well you can't fix stupid.

But I do have a couple of wall-wart powered devices with either no
indication of polarity (why the hell did someone get the bright idea of
making inner conductor negative?) or voltage/current required.

It's a good thing that I've labeled them as such.   Very often, the
"wart" bears some manufacturer ID (if any) that isn't related to the
brand of equipment that it's powering.

I've got my "big box o' warts" that range from 3VDC to 24VAC.  I'm not
sure of what many of them were intended to power at this point.

--Chuck


From als at thangorodrim.ch  Tue Feb  6 11:56:58 2018
From: als at thangorodrim.ch (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 18:56:58 +0100
Subject: [RESOLVED] Re: EPROM baking
In-Reply-To: <44108215-a070-52b4-24d4-8553d18d1dfa@sydex.com>
References: <20171213140834.GA3905@allie.home.misty.com>
 <CABGJBuegbvsi0cftLzksBGL7Kyp13Fk=5jFZ1AgciFsVkwy3Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR14MB1600987EA49FA320B6C07806A3350@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <20171221021850.GA4333@allie.home.misty.com>
 <20180205182030.GA31063@allie.home.misty.com>
 <44108215-a070-52b4-24d4-8553d18d1dfa@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20180206175658.GA19222@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Mon, Feb 05, 2018 at 11:06:29AM -0800, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> On 02/05/2018 10:20 AM, Mark G Thomas via cctalk wrote:
> 
> > 2) Many of the chips were failing to program because my Batronix 
> >    programmer apparently requires more current than my USB port provides. 
> >    This surprised me because I have been programming chips for years 
> >    using this programmer on this computer port successfully, and this 
> >    is the first I have had the problem. Using a Anker powered USB hub solved
> >    things. My Batronix programmer even arrived with a cheap powered hub 
> >    when I ordered it, but I never used it because it was shipped with an 
> >    incompatible wall wart, but looking at it in the box gave me the idea
> >    that this might be the issue.
> 
> You should be aware that many "thin" Far East USB cables will not pass
> the full USB 1.5A current without substantial voltage drop.   I recently

Maximum current from a standard USB 2.0 port is 500 mA, USB 3.0 ups that to
900 mA. To really get some power via USB, you have to go all the way to
USB C connectors and PD (power delivery), where you easily get 65 W, at the
expense of quite bit of complexity on both ends of the cable.

Of course there are plenty of USB chargers that are all over the map - and
they usually just abuse USB cabling as power wiring, trying to cram 2 A or
more down it - which might not work if whoever made the cable "saved" a bit
too aggressively on the copper.

> ran into this with a new LG portable DVD drive.  It refused to operate,
> even though I'd just taken it out of the box.   I replaced the "thin"
> USB cable with several other "thin" ones that I had with the same
> result.  Finally, in desperation, I located a "thick" USB cable, plugged
> the drive in, and discovered that it worked just fine.
> 
> Moral:  There's a lot of garbage out there.

Is there ever, sadly. Including dangerous garbage - with the power levels
of USB C and PD, bad cables (and chargers) can actually by a serious fire
risk. Fortunately, Benson Leung is on a crusade against this:
https://thenextweb.com/insider/2015/11/05/a-google-engineer-is-reviewing-usb-c-cables-on-amazon-and-its-awesome/

Kind regards,
           Alex. 
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Tue Feb  6 12:43:02 2018
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 18:43:02 +0000
Subject: [RESOLVED] Re: EPROM baking
In-Reply-To: <8517d1a5-e32c-464f-e217-6934038aae47@sydex.com>
References: <CAL1JhhxZnY2oenYhbVtorw7gxO4WqN0QTLL2-NcCwk3dK=rfzQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <8517d1a5-e32c-464f-e217-6934038aae47@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR14MB16001C9DD6D848E8F2903B81A3FD0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>

It might be a good idea to put color codes like on a resistor on the connector plug. You know, green for 5 gold for + center pin and silver for - center pin.

No gold or silver band would be AC.

Brown Red Gold would be 12VDC + on center pin.

Dwight


________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 7:28:38 AM
To: Tor Arntsen via cctalk
Subject: Re: [RESOLVED] Re: EPROM baking

On 02/06/2018 12:05 AM, Tor Arntsen via cctalk wrote:

> .. which led me to accidentally power a USB hub with 12V instead of
> 5V - the power supplies looked the same, had the same plug, and I
> couldn't read the tiny writing on the warts. That blew the nicest
> notebook PC I've ever found - I bought it in Japan at a special
> price, the normal price is out of my league.


I've done worse--used an AC-supply wall wart on a piece of equipment.
Poor thing didn't stand a chance.

You'd have thought that after all these years, some sort of keying
system would have been developed, but I guess not.

--Chuck

From terry at webweavers.co.nz  Tue Feb  6 13:58:37 2018
From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 08:58:37 +1300
Subject: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.
Message-ID: <CACaZngmLmb5PAtUO_BosuSz_KzVSoZCf04A5edHf9Kc5vALJ0g@mail.gmail.com>

The title might suggest to topic is not vintage, but the reason I did this
myself was to facilitate classic computer disk imaging.

I?ve recently given USB drive capability to the MS-DOS 7.1 environment in a
Windows 98SE computer I use for the purpose above. It was a bit of work
configuring the machine to ensure both the MS-DOS drivers and the Windows
98SE drivers co-existed peacefully.

I'm no  Windows 98 guru (or MS-DOS guru for that matter) so it may not be
the most efficient or elegant of solutions.   However, it worked for me. That
being the case I thought I?d document what I did.

Hopefully the article will be useful to others who might want to do this.

http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2018-02-05-USB-in-MS-DOS-and-Win98.htm

Terry (Tez)

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Tue Feb  6 14:30:53 2018
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 13:30:53 -0700
Subject: Google, Wikipedia directly on ASCII terminal?
In-Reply-To: <cafe7aef-593a-6905-790b-5e187c3ca3e6@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <719171235.4042989.1516090774732.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <719171235.4042989.1516090774732@mail.yahoo.com>
 <cafe7aef-593a-6905-790b-5e187c3ca3e6@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <47e9d8cb-f90e-ec5e-4fc4-8d1b2412635c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 01/16/2018 12:52 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> You could do similar via null modem cable between a terminal and 
> something like a Raspberry Pi.

Watching Curious Marc's HP 264x Terminals - Part 3: Living the ASCII 
Life video made me think of this thread.

Check out Marc's did video about 17 minutes into the video.  The video 
shows Ken using the HP 264x terminal to run Lynx on a Linux box to 
access Google.

Is this what you were wanting to do?

P.S.  Hi Marc, please keep making the videos, I enjoy them.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From lproven at gmail.com  Tue Feb  6 12:00:42 2018
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 19:00:42 +0100
Subject: VMS 8.4 Alpha Hobbyist disk images
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR0101MB3038F07566460B0705C3FA5BE4F90@MWHPR0101MB3038.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <mailman.3.1517508000.64909.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <000401d39c61$6a2e0d00$3e8a2700$@co.uk>
 <CABp7FHVyARKDJChj9WG-OOTuV5DBtRxUdYvtUrem7+n9sXNCUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR0101MB3038F07566460B0705C3FA5BE4F90@MWHPR0101MB3038.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFFKd2bBEAv=hJ2kLWao6hLV04RuQK_r=JjwTS-UCcDqw@mail.gmail.com>

On 2 February 2018 at 22:16, Wayne S via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> Notice: Downloaded this from the link and Norton says it is a virus. PUA.InstallCore

Please bottom-quote on mailing lists.

Are you running an ad-blocker? If not, you should.

I recommend UBlock Origin.

https://github.com/gorhill/uBlock

AdBlock+ works but takes a lot of RAM.

UBlock is a dodgy fork of the original program and should be avoided.

I am wondering if you are using bad/fake download sites that are
serving compromised files. I used to work in support for AVG a couple
of years ago and this was a common problem -- banner ads with bigger,
more prominent "click here to download" buttons than the _actual_
download button on otherwise-reputable sites.

I have seen this issue with several 100% legit freeware tools,
including on Google itself. I told someone to download Produkey, a
free tool that extracts product IDs and licence keys from Windows. The
person I was advising -- a moderately tech-literate personal friend of
high intelligence -- does not run an ad-blocker and was missing the
_actual_ Google result and clicking on a banner ad by mistake which
was taking him to a fake download site which contained malware and
requested payment.

CD Burner XP and ImgBurn are both legit. I used both for many years. I
no longer use Windows unless someone pays me to do so, but both were
valid tools.

The download site for CD Burner XP is here:

https://cdburnerxp.se/en/home

ImgBurn is also legit. The download site is here:

http://www.imgburn.com/

Win10 obsoletes them both by including ISO burning directly, IIRC, but
it's entirely possible that it can't handle a non-standard CD image
that doesn't contain an ISO9660 filesystem. Recently I have had
problems trying to "burn" bootable drives containing AROS and
A2/Bluebottle to USB because no burn tool recognises those OSes'
filesystems.

For writing Windows 10 itself to USB, I use Rufus, but I don't think
it supports optical media.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From mail.nickallen at gmail.com  Tue Feb  6 13:12:30 2018
From: mail.nickallen at gmail.com (Nick Allen)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 13:12:30 -0600
Subject: PDP8E 3.75V on Omnibus issue
Message-ID: <434f90f2-136c-aeaf-403d-c400097cf318@gmail.com>

Hey everyone, thanks for always serving as a great sounding board and 
source of advice!

I have an issue with a PDP8E which has an issue with the power supply.? 
The -15V, 15V, and 5V are good, and my Bus Loads board is good, but for 
some reason the power supply is bringing down the 3.75V signal from the 
bus loads to 0V (this is the DC VOLTS OK grey wire from the power supply).

I'm having troubles finding the schematics of the PDP8e power supply, 
also any suggestions on what could be pulling the 3.75V to 0V (tested 
multiple Omnibus backplanes, and bus load boards, so I'm fairly certain 
it's the PSU).

All help is MUCH appreciated, thanks!


From kylevowen at gmail.com  Tue Feb  6 16:34:51 2018
From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 16:34:51 -0600
Subject: PDP8E 3.75V on Omnibus issue
In-Reply-To: <434f90f2-136c-aeaf-403d-c400097cf318@gmail.com>
References: <434f90f2-136c-aeaf-403d-c400097cf318@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEYUwh73bMXS_jKNbcYf=_2OVLyrpHafuHshR-gw03Hst1wA@mail.gmail.com>

H724 (and M8320) schematics are here:

http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/pdp8e/PDP-8E_Engineering_Drawings_RevAD_Dec72.pdf

You have the maintenance manuals too, right?

http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/pdp8e/DEC-8E-HMM1A-D-D_PDP-8e_Maintenance_Manual_Volume_1_Processor_Sep73.pdf

Kyle

From kylevowen at gmail.com  Tue Feb  6 16:34:51 2018
From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 16:34:51 -0600
Subject: PDP8E 3.75V on Omnibus issue
In-Reply-To: <434f90f2-136c-aeaf-403d-c400097cf318@gmail.com>
References: <434f90f2-136c-aeaf-403d-c400097cf318@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEYUwh73bMXS_jKNbcYf=_2OVLyrpHafuHshR-gw03Hst1wA@mail.gmail.com>

H724 (and M8320) schematics are here:

http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/pdp8e/PDP-8E_Engineering_Drawings_RevAD_Dec72.pdf

You have the maintenance manuals too, right?

http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/pdp8e/DEC-8E-HMM1A-D-D_PDP-8e_Maintenance_Manual_Volume_1_Processor_Sep73.pdf

Kyle

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Feb  6 17:02:47 2018
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 15:02:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Foolproof power supply interfaces
In-Reply-To: <15bd5973-5530-d908-347d-830d2d0f5466@sydex.com>
References: <CAL1JhhxZnY2oenYhbVtorw7gxO4WqN0QTLL2-NcCwk3dK=rfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01QOQK0O1O2S003AC7@beyondthepale.ie>
 <15bd5973-5530-d908-347d-830d2d0f5466@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802061457370.9656@shell.lmi.net>

On Tue, 6 Feb 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> But I do have a couple of wall-wart powered devices with either no
> indication of polarity (why the hell did someone get the bright idea of
> making inner conductor negative?) or voltage/current required.
> It's a good thing that I've labeled them as such.   Very often, the
> "wart" bears some manufacturer ID (if any) that isn't related to the
> brand of equipment that it's powering.
>> I've got my "big box o' warts" that range from 3VDC to 24VAC.  I'm not
> sure of what many of them were intended to power at this point.

That's what a Brother P-Touch is good for.
Every wall wart should be labelled with the device that it is intended 
for, to reunite when separated.
Also, every one should be labelled with voltage, amperage, AC/DC, 
polarity, and even plug dimensions (5.5 x 2.5 looks a lot like 5.5 x 2.1!)
"Connectable" P-touch can be sent an icon for polarity, if anybody doesn't 
understand "tip"/"ring"

There was a New Yorker cartoon, where the man with massive shelving units 
full of wall warts tells his son that someday they will all be his.

From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net  Tue Feb  6 17:23:19 2018
From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 18:23:19 -0500
Subject: Good Electronic/computer stores SF area
Message-ID: <b07087d7-50d2-05ca-63ec-365e8ad3a8cb@comcast.net>

I haven't been in the San Francisco area in about 30 years.

I remember a number of used computer/electronics stores back then, can't 
remember any names except Weird Stuff Warehouse.

Are there any stores that are worth a visit?

What about outside of the SF area?

Doug


From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Tue Feb  6 17:46:21 2018
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 23:46:21 +0000
Subject: Foolproof power supply interfaces
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802061457370.9656@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CAL1JhhxZnY2oenYhbVtorw7gxO4WqN0QTLL2-NcCwk3dK=rfzQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <01QOQK0O1O2S003AC7@beyondthepale.ie>
 <15bd5973-5530-d908-347d-830d2d0f5466@sydex.com>,
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802061457370.9656@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <MWHPR14MB160015736C9931D6B95F69D1A3FD0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>

Here is my idea. Not perfect but something that can be done to help.


It might be a good idea to put color codes like on a resistor on the connector plug.

You know, green for 5 gold for + center pin and silver for - center pin.

No gold or silver band would be for AC.

Brown Red Gold would be 12VDC + on center pin.

Dwight


________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 3:02:47 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Foolproof power supply interfaces

On Tue, 6 Feb 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> But I do have a couple of wall-wart powered devices with either no
> indication of polarity (why the hell did someone get the bright idea of
> making inner conductor negative?) or voltage/current required.
> It's a good thing that I've labeled them as such.   Very often, the
> "wart" bears some manufacturer ID (if any) that isn't related to the
> brand of equipment that it's powering.
>> I've got my "big box o' warts" that range from 3VDC to 24VAC.  I'm not
> sure of what many of them were intended to power at this point.

That's what a Brother P-Touch is good for.
Every wall wart should be labelled with the device that it is intended
for, to reunite when separated.
Also, every one should be labelled with voltage, amperage, AC/DC,
polarity, and even plug dimensions (5.5 x 2.5 looks a lot like 5.5 x 2.1!)
"Connectable" P-touch can be sent an icon for polarity, if anybody doesn't
understand "tip"/"ring"

There was a New Yorker cartoon, where the man with massive shelving units
full of wall warts tells his son that someday they will all be his.

From davidkcollins2 at gmail.com  Tue Feb  6 17:51:11 2018
From: davidkcollins2 at gmail.com (David Collins)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 10:51:11 +1100
Subject: Good Electronic/computer stores SF area
In-Reply-To: <b07087d7-50d2-05ca-63ec-365e8ad3a8cb@comcast.net>
References: <b07087d7-50d2-05ca-63ec-365e8ad3a8cb@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <892F625F-9FEE-44E7-B4A7-1B04EA02B500@gmail.com>

If you are after components Arrow Electronics and Jameco are good. 

David Collins


> On 7 Feb 2018, at 10:23 am, Douglas Taylor via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> I haven't been in the San Francisco area in about 30 years.
> 
> I remember a number of used computer/electronics stores back then, can't remember any names except Weird Stuff Warehouse.
> 
> Are there any stores that are worth a visit?
> 
> What about outside of the SF area?
> 
> Doug
> 

From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue Feb  6 18:50:02 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 16:50:02 -0800
Subject: Good Electronic/computer stores SF area
In-Reply-To: <b07087d7-50d2-05ca-63ec-365e8ad3a8cb@comcast.net>
References: <b07087d7-50d2-05ca-63ec-365e8ad3a8cb@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <f3446d4d-7796-0468-20e4-c6783b195c69@bitsavers.org>

http://www.junktronix.com/svss/

but I've been told ACE has gone out of business
that pretty much just leaves Anchor, Excess Solutions, Halted, and Weird Stuff

On 2/6/18 3:23 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> I haven't been in the San Francisco area in about 30 years.
> 
> I remember a number of used computer/electronics stores back then, can't remember any names except Weird Stuff Warehouse.
> 
> Are there any stores that are worth a visit?
> 
> What about outside of the SF area?
> 
> Doug
> 


From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Tue Feb  6 19:22:31 2018
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 01:22:31 +0000
Subject: Good Electronic/computer stores SF area
In-Reply-To: <f3446d4d-7796-0468-20e4-c6783b195c69@bitsavers.org>
References: <b07087d7-50d2-05ca-63ec-365e8ad3a8cb@comcast.net>,
 <f3446d4d-7796-0468-20e4-c6783b195c69@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <MWHPR14MB160097834DA31668479C2041A3FC0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>

Halted may not be too long in following. The guys that run it want to retire. If someone doesn't pick up the business they may have to drop it as well.

I hadn't been over to ACE in about a year or more. It is too bad. They had parts that no one else had.

Dwight


________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 4:50:02 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Good Electronic/computer stores SF area

http://www.junktronix.com/svss/

but I've been told ACE has gone out of business
that pretty much just leaves Anchor, Excess Solutions, Halted, and Weird Stuff

On 2/6/18 3:23 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> I haven't been in the San Francisco area in about 30 years.
>
> I remember a number of used computer/electronics stores back then, can't remember any names except Weird Stuff Warehouse.
>
> Are there any stores that are worth a visit?
>
> What about outside of the SF area?
>
> Doug
>


From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Tue Feb  6 19:23:31 2018
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 01:23:31 +0000
Subject: Good Electronic/computer stores SF area
In-Reply-To: <892F625F-9FEE-44E7-B4A7-1B04EA02B500@gmail.com>
References: <b07087d7-50d2-05ca-63ec-365e8ad3a8cb@comcast.net>,
 <892F625F-9FEE-44E7-B4A7-1B04EA02B500@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR14MB16000997D1FBB4E382E5971CA3FC0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>

Arrow and Jamco are mostly retail with some classic parts.

Dwight


________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of David Collins via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 3:51:11 PM
To: Douglas Taylor; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Good Electronic/computer stores SF area

If you are after components Arrow Electronics and Jameco are good.

David Collins


> On 7 Feb 2018, at 10:23 am, Douglas Taylor via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> I haven't been in the San Francisco area in about 30 years.
>
> I remember a number of used computer/electronics stores back then, can't remember any names except Weird Stuff Warehouse.
>
> Are there any stores that are worth a visit?
>
> What about outside of the SF area?
>
> Doug
>

From linimon at lonesome.com  Tue Feb  6 20:13:23 2018
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 20:13:23 -0600
Subject: Good Electronic/computer stores SF area
In-Reply-To: <f3446d4d-7796-0468-20e4-c6783b195c69@bitsavers.org>
References: <b07087d7-50d2-05ca-63ec-365e8ad3a8cb@comcast.net>
 <f3446d4d-7796-0468-20e4-c6783b195c69@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <20180207021323.GB8171@lonesome.com>

On Tue, Feb 06, 2018 at 04:50:02PM -0800, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> but I've been told ACE has gone out of business

Their website is now owned by a squatter.

mcl

From healyzh at aracnet.com  Tue Feb  6 22:27:44 2018
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh at aracnet.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2018 20:27:44 -0800
Subject: CLASSICCMP vs. RackSpace or Gmail
In-Reply-To: <001001d39f6d$584b2e10$08e18a30$@classiccmp.org>
References: <f93fb01a3f88b25a1d7f6ebdf1f9870f@aracnet.com>
 <cec26587-987d-8e79-618d-dc3ef6dac446@jwsss.com>
 <cad815f347e63a8bc64af071c8566c9c@aracnet.com>
 <001001d39f6d$584b2e10$08e18a30$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <04187ce49775f3bd53edde19bcebdfae@aracnet.com>

On 2018-02-06 09:10, Jay West wrote:
> I suspect I must be missing something. I haven't gotten a
> request/question from Zane or Jim about anything lately.
> 
> As Doc said.... "Please state the nature of your emergency" :>
> 
> Let me know what you need and I'll be happy to help.
> 
> J

I thought there should have been a request for subscription from my 
gmail account.  Oddly enough I was able to resubscribe with my 
avanthar.com account (and that should be waiting moderator approval).  
Actually since I got the email to confirm, with the Avanthar request, I 
think I failed to subscribe with gmail.

Hopefully that'll be resolved shortly. :-)

Zane



From classiccmp at crash.com  Wed Feb  7 00:55:39 2018
From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 22:55:39 -0800
Subject: 8" floppy drives from AMD development system?
Message-ID: <8673b914-63b9-47e7-808e-a07d076461a8@crash.com>

Anybody notice this eBay auction? https://cgi.ebay.com/itm/222816138475

I'd guess it was part of a packaged AMD development system, maybe 
somebody recalls some specifics...? Or maybe that it was something else?

Google is returning a lot about Age-related Macular Degeneration, and 
other misses where they helpfully turn "AMD" into "and" ...

Thanks,
--S.

From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Wed Feb  7 02:45:39 2018
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 09:45:39 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Google, Wikipedia directly on ASCII terminal?
In-Reply-To: <47e9d8cb-f90e-ec5e-4fc4-8d1b2412635c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <719171235.4042989.1516090774732.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <719171235.4042989.1516090774732@mail.yahoo.com>
 <cafe7aef-593a-6905-790b-5e187c3ca3e6@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <47e9d8cb-f90e-ec5e-4fc4-8d1b2412635c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1802070940390.2878@linuxserv.home>

On Tue, 6 Feb 2018, Grant Taylor wrote:
> Watching Curious Marc's HP 264x Terminals - Part 3: Living the ASCII Life 
> video made me think of this thread.
>
> Check out Marc's did video about 17 minutes into the video.  The video shows 
> Ken using the HP 264x terminal to run Lynx on a Linux box to access Google.

One needs a video for this? ;-)
That is one of the things we're doing casually for over 15 years here. May 
it be a VT100, a HP 2648 or even the VT52 emulation within the IBM 5110 
Kermit ;-)
(BTW all the equipment is connected to terminal servers)

Christian

From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com  Wed Feb  7 08:39:17 2018
From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 08:39:17 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Searching for EBBS][
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1802070837390.13592@pinhead.binfone.com>


As the title suggests, I'm looking for a copy of the EBBS][ software for a 
friend who used to run an Apple based BBS many moons ago and is looking 
out for a bit of nostalgia. So far he's been unable to locate the disks 
the system used to be on (he suspects damaged in a storage space flood in 
the late 90s) and my google fu is weak.

Would anyone be able to help us out here?

Replies should probably be kept off-list.

My thanks to all;

  - JP

From aek at bitsavers.org  Wed Feb  7 10:46:25 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 08:46:25 -0800
Subject: 8" floppy drives from AMD development system?
In-Reply-To: <8673b914-63b9-47e7-808e-a07d076461a8@crash.com>
References: <8673b914-63b9-47e7-808e-a07d076461a8@crash.com>
Message-ID: <51f951e1-3834-c7b2-69f5-cde8b8483392@bitsavers.org>

AMD made a whole Multibus product line covered in
http://bitsavers.org/pdf/amd/multibus

in particular AMD_Multibus_OEM_Products_May84.pdf

On 2/6/18 10:55 PM, Steven M Jones via cctalk wrote:
> Anybody notice this eBay auction? https://cgi.ebay.com/itm/222816138475
> 
> I'd guess it was part of a packaged AMD development system, maybe somebody recalls some specifics...? 


From ian.finder at gmail.com  Wed Feb  7 13:36:28 2018
From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 11:36:28 -0800
Subject: Maxtor full-height 5.25" drives of death
Message-ID: <CAHQ+QWBQ9eojB4kU7qC6gGs0Yj3rX5cCFcrM_U_sgLhT49VrFg@mail.gmail.com>

XT2190s, XT1140s, some of the early ESDI disks...
I have 6 XT2190s at home, and maybe one of the damn things works.

Does anyone out here know, beyond speculation, what some of the common
failure modes of these drives are? I'm not opposed to open-HDA surgery.

And I probably won't do anything.
But the question of WHY this line of drives in particular sucks so much has
haunted me for some time...

- Ian

Honorable mention: CDC Sabre, Wren.

-- 
   Ian Finder
   (206) 395-MIPS
   ian.finder at gmail.com

From allisonportable at gmail.com  Wed Feb  7 13:44:20 2018
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 14:44:20 -0500
Subject: Maxtor full-height 5.25" drives of death
In-Reply-To: <CAHQ+QWBQ9eojB4kU7qC6gGs0Yj3rX5cCFcrM_U_sgLhT49VrFg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHQ+QWBQ9eojB4kU7qC6gGs0Yj3rX5cCFcrM_U_sgLhT49VrFg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <09ac51d2-cb12-b5ee-12ba-3feddc7c49f8@gmail.com>



On 2/7/18 2:36 PM, Ian Finder via cctalk wrote:
> XT2190s, XT1140s, some of the early ESDI disks...
> I have 6 XT2190s at home, and maybe one of the damn things works.
>
> Does anyone out here know, beyond speculation, what some of the common
> failure modes of these drives are? I'm not opposed to open-HDA surgery.
>
> And I probably won't do anything.
> But the question of WHY this line of drives in particular sucks so much has
> haunted me for some time...

Drives of the day were power hungry and ran hot.? Heat is a killer.

I have a few that work but I got them? young and kept them cool
so they held up much better.? The trick was BA123 (large and roomy)
and an extra fan behind it.

Another drive was the SA250, kept cool the ran long but with poor airflow
maybe 16 months.

Allison
> htly boxed with
> - Ian
>
> Honorable mention: CDC Sabre, Wren.
>


From ian.finder at gmail.com  Wed Feb  7 13:50:09 2018
From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 11:50:09 -0800
Subject: Maxtor full-height 5.25" drives of death
In-Reply-To: <09ac51d2-cb12-b5ee-12ba-3feddc7c49f8@gmail.com>
References: <CAHQ+QWBQ9eojB4kU7qC6gGs0Yj3rX5cCFcrM_U_sgLhT49VrFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <09ac51d2-cb12-b5ee-12ba-3feddc7c49f8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHQ+QWCXvL+3jUY_mDjJvVPiBVqukEtn=YcchOxy=6Rft_Qj+w@mail.gmail.com>

> Drives of the day were power hungry and ran hot.  Heat is a killer.

Yes, certainly heat is why these drives go onto a shelf working and come
off of it broken with servo and head amplifier problems at an astonishing
rate far higher than their contemporary brethren.
It also helps answer my question of common failure modes- surely, it must
be the refrigeration on the drives that fails while it is on the shelf.
Perhaps the freon slowly leaks.

Thank you for this insightful response.

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Feb  7 13:54:12 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 11:54:12 -0800
Subject: Maxtor full-height 5.25" drives of death
In-Reply-To: <CAHQ+QWBQ9eojB4kU7qC6gGs0Yj3rX5cCFcrM_U_sgLhT49VrFg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHQ+QWBQ9eojB4kU7qC6gGs0Yj3rX5cCFcrM_U_sgLhT49VrFg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <18872a62-5156-fa6a-cb4e-86fe082962e4@sydex.com>

On 02/07/2018 11:36 AM, Ian Finder via cctalk wrote:
> XT2190s, XT1140s, some of the early ESDI disks...
> I have 6 XT2190s at home, and maybe one of the damn things works.
> 
> Does anyone out here know, beyond speculation, what some of the common
> failure modes of these drives are? I'm not opposed to open-HDA surgery.
> 
> And I probably won't do anything.
> But the question of WHY this line of drives in particular sucks so much has
> haunted me for some time...

I've got a Maxtor-branded ESDI drive with a Miniscribe casting.  I
imagine that this was one of the drives that wasn't a brick in a box.
It still works fine, though it is a power hog.

--Chuck


From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com  Wed Feb  7 14:28:49 2018
From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 12:28:49 -0800
Subject: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.
In-Reply-To: <CACaZngmLmb5PAtUO_BosuSz_KzVSoZCf04A5edHf9Kc5vALJ0g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACaZngmLmb5PAtUO_BosuSz_KzVSoZCf04A5edHf9Kc5vALJ0g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B530D072-62DF-45AD-9F2B-B2561FA3D2B8@gmail.com>

Thanks Terry, I need to get my DOS7.1/Win98 Dolch to speak USB, that will be helpful, particularly the DOS portion. I got my Win98 networked to Win7, it's not that hard *once you know* and works really well. You have to change one entry in the Win7 registry and add one package from the unofficial Win98 service pack. If I find my notes I'll post them here.
Marc

> On Feb 6, 2018, at 11:58 AM, Terry Stewart via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> The title might suggest to topic is not vintage, but the reason I did this
> myself was to facilitate classic computer disk imaging.
> 
> I?ve recently given USB drive capability to the MS-DOS 7.1 environment in a
> Windows 98SE computer I use for the purpose above. It was a bit of work
> configuring the machine to ensure both the MS-DOS drivers and the Windows
> 98SE drivers co-existed peacefully.
> 
> I'm no  Windows 98 guru (or MS-DOS guru for that matter) so it may not be
> the most efficient or elegant of solutions.   However, it worked for me. That
> being the case I thought I?d document what I did.
> 
> Hopefully the article will be useful to others who might want to do this.
> 
> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2018-02-05-USB-in-MS-DOS-and-Win98.htm
> 
> Terry (Tez)

From terry at webweavers.co.nz  Wed Feb  7 17:37:20 2018
From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 12:37:20 +1300
Subject: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.
In-Reply-To: <B530D072-62DF-45AD-9F2B-B2561FA3D2B8@gmail.com>
References: <CACaZngmLmb5PAtUO_BosuSz_KzVSoZCf04A5edHf9Kc5vALJ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <B530D072-62DF-45AD-9F2B-B2561FA3D2B8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACaZngkwEXynaaDeohO_jrbYpCvTMjWS+5DLen2Acm77ONx-0A@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 9:28 AM, Curious Marc <curiousmarc3 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks Terry, I need to get my DOS7.1/Win98 Dolch to speak USB, that will
> be helpful, particularly the DOS portion. I got my Win98 networked to Win7,
> it's not that hard *once you know* and works really well. You have to
> change one entry in the Win7 registry and add one package from the
> unofficial Win98 service pack. If I find my notes I'll post them here.
> Marc
>

 Thanks Marc,

I probably won't attempt networking again (I did once), as I don't have a
crossover cable and it's very convenient just to use the flash drive.  It
would be good to know how to do it though and I'm sure other would
appreciate that info.

Cheers

Terry

>
>

From healyzh at avanthar.com  Wed Feb  7 19:35:09 2018
From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 17:35:09 -0800
Subject: OpenVMS software repositories?
Message-ID: <FDE007EB-6FE4-43F8-A443-D8CF079BEF69@avanthar.com>

What sites still exist that have VMS software?  I know the about the OpenVMS Freeware CD?s from HP VMS Engineering.  

http://h41379.www4.hpe.com/openvms/freeware/collections.html

As an example, I?ve found part of the old DECwindows archive, but it looks like that site is basically gone.

Zane




From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com  Wed Feb  7 21:05:32 2018
From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 22:05:32 -0500
Subject: OpenVMS software repositories?
In-Reply-To: <FDE007EB-6FE4-43F8-A443-D8CF079BEF69@avanthar.com>
References: <FDE007EB-6FE4-43F8-A443-D8CF079BEF69@avanthar.com>
Message-ID: <5A7BBE7C.8030503@gmail.com>

Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
> What sites still exist that have VMS software?  I know the about the OpenVMS Freeware CD?s from HP VMS Engineering.
>
> http://h41379.www4.hpe.com/openvms/freeware/collections.html
>
> As an example, I?ve found part of the old DECwindows archive, but it looks like that site is basically gone.
>
Probably not what you are looking for, but these are handy:

http://nchrem.tnw.tudelft.nl/openvms/software2.html
http://de.openvms.org/OpenVMS-Ports/list.php?by=Category

carlos.


From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Wed Feb  7 21:20:53 2018
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 20:20:53 -0700
Subject: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.
In-Reply-To: <CACaZngmLmb5PAtUO_BosuSz_KzVSoZCf04A5edHf9Kc5vALJ0g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACaZngmLmb5PAtUO_BosuSz_KzVSoZCf04A5edHf9Kc5vALJ0g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <de780a0b-81f3-b923-02a0-7e22de42d147@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 02/06/2018 12:58 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:
> The title might suggest to topic is not vintage, but the reason I did 
> this myself was to facilitate classic computer disk imaging.

I'd think that something from ~20 years ago is indeed vintage.  (It's 
closer to the 25 year old requirement for cards to be vintage, than 
not.)  Just not quite as vintage as some of the other topics on cctalk.

> I?ve recently given USB drive capability to the MS-DOS 7.1 environment 
> in a Windows 98SE computer I use for the purpose above. It was a bit of 
> work configuring the machine to ensure both the MS-DOS drivers and the 
> Windows 98SE drivers co-existed peacefully.

Intriguing.

I figured that such was possible, but I've never tried.

> I'm no  Windows 98 guru (or MS-DOS guru for that matter) so it may not 
> be the most efficient or elegant of solutions.   However, it worked for 
> me. That being the case I thought I?d document what I did.

I thought there were alternate config.sys and autoexec.bat files that 
were used if you chose to reboot to MS-DOS mode, and possibly if you hit 
F8 and chose command line during boot.

Quick Google searches make me think that the MS-DOS mode files are named 
config.dos and autoexec.dos.  Then Windows will rename them when you 
select reboot into MS-DOS mode.

> Hopefully the article will be useful to others who might want to do this.
> 
> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2018-02-05-USB-in-MS-DOS-and-Win98.htm

Thank you for sharing.

I'm filing that away for future use.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Wed Feb  7 21:22:45 2018
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 20:22:45 -0700
Subject: OpenVMS software repositories?
In-Reply-To: <FDE007EB-6FE4-43F8-A443-D8CF079BEF69@avanthar.com>
References: <FDE007EB-6FE4-43F8-A443-D8CF079BEF69@avanthar.com>
Message-ID: <650e9675-fe77-67bd-c929-daff9e711966@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 02/07/2018 06:35 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
> What sites still exist that have VMS software?  I know the about the 
> OpenVMS Freeware CD?s from HP VMS Engineering.

I'd suggest that you redirect your question to the comp.os.vms 
newsgroup.  I frequently see discussions there about software archives. 
In fact, you can probably search an archive of the group and find some 
answers to your question.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From healyzh at avanthar.com  Wed Feb  7 21:28:42 2018
From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 19:28:42 -0800
Subject: OpenVMS software repositories?
In-Reply-To: <5A7BBE7C.8030503@gmail.com>
References: <FDE007EB-6FE4-43F8-A443-D8CF079BEF69@avanthar.com>
 <5A7BBE7C.8030503@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3C5CBA25-6D3B-480C-A25E-56D4BD713933@avanthar.com>


> On Feb 7, 2018, at 7:05 PM, Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez <ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>> What sites still exist that have VMS software?  I know the about the OpenVMS Freeware CD?s from HP VMS Engineering.
>> 
>> http://h41379.www4.hpe.com/openvms/freeware/collections.html
>> 
>> As an example, I?ve found part of the old DECwindows archive, but it looks like that site is basically gone.
>> 
> Probably not what you are looking for, but these are handy:
> 
> http://nchrem.tnw.tudelft.nl/openvms/software2.html
> http://de.openvms.org/OpenVMS-Ports/list.php?by=Category
> 
> carlos.
> 

WOW!!!  That first one is quite impressive, though it?s a shame they aren?t offering binaries.

The second one looks most promising.  I?ll have to see about getting SQLite3 running on my VAX and Alpha systems, as that might be the answer to my one problem.

This actually makes me want an Itanium system.

Zane




From healyzh at avanthar.com  Wed Feb  7 21:30:17 2018
From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 19:30:17 -0800
Subject: OpenVMS software repositories?
In-Reply-To: <650e9675-fe77-67bd-c929-daff9e711966@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <FDE007EB-6FE4-43F8-A443-D8CF079BEF69@avanthar.com>
 <650e9675-fe77-67bd-c929-daff9e711966@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <AC690F9A-311B-4707-B3DD-0D26C53706F3@avanthar.com>


> On Feb 7, 2018, at 7:22 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On 02/07/2018 06:35 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>> What sites still exist that have VMS software?  I know the about the OpenVMS Freeware CD?s from HP VMS Engineering.
> 
> I'd suggest that you redirect your question to the comp.os.vms newsgroup.  I frequently see discussions there about software archives. In fact, you can probably search an archive of the group and find some answers to your question.

I need to see about getting back on comp.os.vms, I?ve not been active there in a decade.

Zane





From terry at webweavers.co.nz  Wed Feb  7 22:14:02 2018
From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 17:14:02 +1300
Subject: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.
In-Reply-To: <de780a0b-81f3-b923-02a0-7e22de42d147@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <CACaZngmLmb5PAtUO_BosuSz_KzVSoZCf04A5edHf9Kc5vALJ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <de780a0b-81f3-b923-02a0-7e22de42d147@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <CACaZngkJeSVLsL4i98ZQ_FVSJ9WMO1AXBvgNg-Ft3076_hL7gg@mail.gmail.com>

 >I thought there were alternate config.sys and autoexec.bat files that
were used if you chose to reboot to MS-DOS mode, and possibly if you hit F8
and chose command line during boot.

Yes, the files you speak of are config.dos and autoexec.dos.  These
confused me at first because I thought just as you did. I put the driver
files in there. However, those files seem to be associated with the
PREVIOUS MS-DOS version (if one exists) prior to installation of Windows
98, NOT the CLI of Windows 98 (MS-DOS 7.1).  There is an option when
starting Windows 98 to boot to an earlier version of MS-DOS.  If this
earlier version is selected, then config.dos and autoexec.dos are read and
processed as config.sys and autoexec.bat for the DOS boot.  Otherwise, if
booting the Windows 98 (MS-DOS 7.1) CLI, these files are ignored and only
autoexec.bat and config.sys (if they exist) are processed.

Initially, I thought booting to the previous DOS install (in my case MS-DOS
6.2) would solve the USB problem, and I simply called up the older DOS
(MS-DOS 6.2) with the drivers using those *.dos files.  However, I was then
crippled by only being able to use a USB drive with FAT16 and a small
capacity.  I needed an MS-DOS 7.1 environment to give me FAT 32 hence the
config.sys "menu" system.

Terry (Tez)









On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 4:20 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 02/06/2018 12:58 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:
>
>> The title might suggest to topic is not vintage, but the reason I did
>> this myself was to facilitate classic computer disk imaging.
>>
>
> I'd think that something from ~20 years ago is indeed vintage.  (It's
> closer to the 25 year old requirement for cards to be vintage, than not.)
> Just not quite as vintage as some of the other topics on cctalk.
>
> I?ve recently given USB drive capability to the MS-DOS 7.1 environment in
>> a Windows 98SE computer I use for the purpose above. It was a bit of work
>> configuring the machine to ensure both the MS-DOS drivers and the Windows
>> 98SE drivers co-existed peacefully.
>>
>
> Intriguing.
>
> I figured that such was possible, but I've never tried.
>
> I'm no  Windows 98 guru (or MS-DOS guru for that matter) so it may not be
>> the most efficient or elegant of solutions.   However, it worked for me.
>> That being the case I thought I?d document what I did.
>>
>
> I thought there were alternate config.sys and autoexec.bat files that were
> used if you chose to reboot to MS-DOS mode, and possibly if you hit F8 and
> chose command line during boot.
>
> Quick Google searches make me think that the MS-DOS mode files are named
> config.dos and autoexec.dos.  Then Windows will rename them when you select
> reboot into MS-DOS mode.
>
> Hopefully the article will be useful to others who might want to do this.
>>
>> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2018-02-05-USB-in-M
>> S-DOS-and-Win98.htm
>>
>
> Thank you for sharing.
>
> I'm filing that away for future use.
>
>
>
> --
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die
>

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Feb  7 22:22:29 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 20:22:29 -0800
Subject: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.
In-Reply-To: <de780a0b-81f3-b923-02a0-7e22de42d147@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <CACaZngmLmb5PAtUO_BosuSz_KzVSoZCf04A5edHf9Kc5vALJ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <de780a0b-81f3-b923-02a0-7e22de42d147@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <0e5a4b71-d025-0a6c-233c-a1b8b5aeda52@sydex.com>

I recall using these drivers several years ago.

As I recall, the problem is that they're not amenable to hot-swapping.
That is, is you're using a USB flash drive with them, there was no code
that allowed you to remove the drive and substitute another without
rebooting.

Has this situation changed?

On a related note, I have several Ralink RT5370 USB Wifi dongles that I
find to be quite useful.

Has anyone gotten one to work with Windows 98SE (I won't even bring up
MS-DOS)?

I wondered if I could find a Windows 2000 miniport driver for it, that
it might work in Windows 98.

--Chuck

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Wed Feb  7 22:53:04 2018
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 21:53:04 -0700
Subject: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.
In-Reply-To: <CACaZngkJeSVLsL4i98ZQ_FVSJ9WMO1AXBvgNg-Ft3076_hL7gg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACaZngmLmb5PAtUO_BosuSz_KzVSoZCf04A5edHf9Kc5vALJ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <de780a0b-81f3-b923-02a0-7e22de42d147@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CACaZngkJeSVLsL4i98ZQ_FVSJ9WMO1AXBvgNg-Ft3076_hL7gg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3e54aa92-ec2c-3660-a01a-8936ad43a7d5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 02/07/2018 09:14 PM, Terry Stewart wrote:
> Yes, the files you speak of are config.dos and autoexec.dos.? These 
> confused me at first because I thought just as you did. I put the driver 
> files in there. However, those files seem to be associated with the 
> PREVIOUS MS-DOS version (if one exists) prior to installation of Windows 
> 98, NOT the CLI of Windows 98 (MS-DOS 7.1).? There is an option when 
> starting Windows 98 to boot to an earlier version of MS-DOS.? If this 
> earlier version is selected, then config.dos and autoexec.dos are read 
> and processed as config.sys and autoexec.bat for the DOS boot.  
> Otherwise, if booting the Windows 98 (MS-DOS 7.1) CLI, these files are 
> ignored and only autoexec.bat and config.sys (if they exist) are processed.

According to the following link from IBM, the process we are both 
thinking of is valid, just using different files.

http://ps-2.kev009.com/pcpartnerinfo/ctstips/c546.htm

> Initially, I thought booting to the previous DOS install (in my case 
> MS-DOS 6.2) would solve the USB problem, and I simply called up the 
> older DOS (MS-DOS 6.2) with the drivers using those *.dos files.  
> However, I was then crippled by only being able to use a USB drive with 
> FAT16 and a small capacity.? I needed an MS-DOS 7.1 environment to give 
> me FAT 32 hence the config.sys "menu" system.

Ya.  MS-DOS < 7.x doesn't understand FAT-32 drives.  -  I think there 
are drivers that you can load to add support for it.  Or you can just 
use MSDOS.SYS, IO.SYS, and COMMAND.COM from Windows 9x.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Wed Feb  7 22:58:21 2018
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 21:58:21 -0700
Subject: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.
In-Reply-To: <3e54aa92-ec2c-3660-a01a-8936ad43a7d5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <CACaZngmLmb5PAtUO_BosuSz_KzVSoZCf04A5edHf9Kc5vALJ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <de780a0b-81f3-b923-02a0-7e22de42d147@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CACaZngkJeSVLsL4i98ZQ_FVSJ9WMO1AXBvgNg-Ft3076_hL7gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <3e54aa92-ec2c-3660-a01a-8936ad43a7d5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <9d486422-02a0-bff2-6410-e911e43c7854@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 02/07/2018 09:53 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> According to the following link from IBM, the process we are both 
> thinking of is valid, just using different files.
> 
> http://ps-2.kev009.com/pcpartnerinfo/ctstips/c546.htm

That link mentions ExittoDOS.pif, and searches for it turn up related 
information about dosstart.bat.

I'd suggest digging around for them and some web searches.

I don't currently have a 9x (V)M to test things on.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Wed Feb  7 23:19:05 2018
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 00:19:05 -0500
Subject: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.
References: <CACaZngmLmb5PAtUO_BosuSz_KzVSoZCf04A5edHf9Kc5vALJ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <de780a0b-81f3-b923-02a0-7e22de42d147@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CACaZngkJeSVLsL4i98ZQ_FVSJ9WMO1AXBvgNg-Ft3076_hL7gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <3e54aa92-ec2c-3660-a01a-8936ad43a7d5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <9d486422-02a0-bff2-6410-e911e43c7854@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <58E46CA003FE40FC9BFED59A7FF3C25A@310e2>

Having trouble with that link; any tips?

m

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Grant Taylor via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 11:58 PM
Subject: Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.


> On 02/07/2018 09:53 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
>> According to the following link from IBM, the process we are both 
>> thinking of is valid, just using different files.
>> 
>> http://ps-2.kev009.com/pcpartnerinfo/ctstips/c546.htm
> 
> That link mentions ExittoDOS.pif, and searches for it turn up related 
> information about dosstart.bat.
> 
> I'd suggest digging around for them and some web searches.
> 
> I don't currently have a 9x (V)M to test things on.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die

From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Wed Feb  7 23:30:33 2018
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 00:30:33 -0500
Subject: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.
References: <CACaZngmLmb5PAtUO_BosuSz_KzVSoZCf04A5edHf9Kc5vALJ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <de780a0b-81f3-b923-02a0-7e22de42d147@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CACaZngkJeSVLsL4i98ZQ_FVSJ9WMO1AXBvgNg-Ft3076_hL7gg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <81ADEBE303784407A38F711839C0C4D4@310e2>

Back in the W98SE days I bought USB sticks that came with drivers, so W98 has never been a problem.

Another approach for DOS if the system has 'boot from USB' capability is to just make a bootable DOS7 USB stick. 
Stick in: DOS, stick out: WIN98/XP/VISTA etc.; transfer files to heart's content.

Excellent writeup; thanks, Tez!

m

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Terry Stewart via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
To: "Grant Taylor" <cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net>; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 11:14 PM
Subject: Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.


>I thought there were alternate config.sys and autoexec.bat files that
were used if you chose to reboot to MS-DOS mode, and possibly if you hit F8
and chose command line during boot.

Yes, the files you speak of are config.dos and autoexec.dos.  These
confused me at first because I thought just as you did. I put the driver
files in there. However, those files seem to be associated with the
PREVIOUS MS-DOS version (if one exists) prior to installation of Windows
98, NOT the CLI of Windows 98 (MS-DOS 7.1).  There is an option when
starting Windows 98 to boot to an earlier version of MS-DOS.  If this
earlier version is selected, then config.dos and autoexec.dos are read and
processed as config.sys and autoexec.bat for the DOS boot.  Otherwise, if
booting the Windows 98 (MS-DOS 7.1) CLI, these files are ignored and only
autoexec.bat and config.sys (if they exist) are processed.

Initially, I thought booting to the previous DOS install (in my case MS-DOS
6.2) would solve the USB problem, and I simply called up the older DOS
(MS-DOS 6.2) with the drivers using those *.dos files.  However, I was then
crippled by only being able to use a USB drive with FAT16 and a small
capacity.  I needed an MS-DOS 7.1 environment to give me FAT 32 hence the
config.sys "menu" system.

Terry (Tez)









On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 4:20 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 02/06/2018 12:58 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:
>
>> The title might suggest to topic is not vintage, but the reason I did
>> this myself was to facilitate classic computer disk imaging.
>>
>
> I'd think that something from ~20 years ago is indeed vintage.  (It's
> closer to the 25 year old requirement for cards to be vintage, than not.)
> Just not quite as vintage as some of the other topics on cctalk.
>
> I?ve recently given USB drive capability to the MS-DOS 7.1 environment in
>> a Windows 98SE computer I use for the purpose above. It was a bit of work
>> configuring the machine to ensure both the MS-DOS drivers and the Windows
>> 98SE drivers co-existed peacefully.
>>
>
> Intriguing.
>
> I figured that such was possible, but I've never tried.
>
> I'm no  Windows 98 guru (or MS-DOS guru for that matter) so it may not be
>> the most efficient or elegant of solutions.   However, it worked for me.
>> That being the case I thought I?d document what I did.
>>
>
> I thought there were alternate config.sys and autoexec.bat files that were
> used if you chose to reboot to MS-DOS mode, and possibly if you hit F8 and
> chose command line during boot.
>
> Quick Google searches make me think that the MS-DOS mode files are named
> config.dos and autoexec.dos.  Then Windows will rename them when you select
> reboot into MS-DOS mode.
>
> Hopefully the article will be useful to others who might want to do this.
>>
>> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2018-02-05-USB-in-M
>> S-DOS-and-Win98.htm
>>
>
> Thank you for sharing.
>
> I'm filing that away for future use.
>
>
>
> --
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die
>

From elson at pico-systems.com  Wed Feb  7 23:46:08 2018
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2018 23:46:08 -0600
Subject: anybody need a 25 foot Unibus cable?
In-Reply-To: <5A64F1C1.2020204@pico-systems.com>
References: <656e5130-984d-8b48-bb53-bc49adc55634@gmail.com>
 <5A64F1C1.2020204@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <5A7BE420.40509@pico-systems.com>

While cleaning up at work, I found a 25 foot Unibus cable in 
decent condition.  Anybody need one?

Jon

From healyzh at avanthar.com  Thu Feb  8 00:20:19 2018
From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 22:20:19 -0800
Subject: anybody need a 25 foot Unibus cable?
In-Reply-To: <5A7BE420.40509@pico-systems.com>
References: <656e5130-984d-8b48-bb53-bc49adc55634@gmail.com>
 <5A64F1C1.2020204@pico-systems.com> <5A7BE420.40509@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <EC209D45-717C-4A1B-8495-14D442A4A7C0@avanthar.com>


> On Feb 7, 2018, at 9:46 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> While cleaning up at work, I found a 25 foot Unibus cable in decent condition.  Anybody need one?
> 
> Jon

I wish I needed one, that would be an interesting problem to have. :-)

Actually you jogged a memory, I think I have something like that out in the garage in with my PDP-11 spares.

Zane




From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com  Thu Feb  8 00:27:03 2018
From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 22:27:03 -0800
Subject: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.
In-Reply-To: <CACaZngkwEXynaaDeohO_jrbYpCvTMjWS+5DLen2Acm77ONx-0A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACaZngmLmb5PAtUO_BosuSz_KzVSoZCf04A5edHf9Kc5vALJ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <B530D072-62DF-45AD-9F2B-B2561FA3D2B8@gmail.com>
 <CACaZngkwEXynaaDeohO_jrbYpCvTMjWS+5DLen2Acm77ONx-0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D362174A-97F0-423D-9575-3008BAEDD84C@gmail.com>

Here you go: 

Networking between Win98 and Win7

On Windows 7, using regedit, set    
        ?HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\System\CurrentControlSet\Control\Lsa\LMCompatibilityLevel? to ?1?
	You might need to create the new entry under \lsa as a REG_DWORD, set to 1

On the Win98 machine:
        You have to install the Active Directory Extension, part of
	the unofficial service pack 3 which you have to download
        It's the first option on the install. I installed just that.

Then from there it's regular stuff: put the machines on the same workgroup name, enable sharing of your folders, permissions, etc...
  
From Win7, the Win98 machine appears in the Network, just click on it to browse the shares

From Win98, Win7 is not accessible from the Network Neighborhood. You have to type
	directly the share address in an Explorer toolbar window like so
	\\Workshop\SharedFolder
	I had to shorten my share names for this to work, long names did not work.
Marc

> On Feb 7, 2018, at 3:37 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 9:28 AM, Curious Marc <curiousmarc3 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Thanks Terry, I need to get my DOS7.1/Win98 Dolch to speak USB, that will
>> be helpful, particularly the DOS portion. I got my Win98 networked to Win7,
>> it's not that hard *once you know* and works really well. You have to
>> change one entry in the Win7 registry and add one package from the
>> unofficial Win98 service pack. If I find my notes I'll post them here.
>> Marc
>> 
> 
> Thanks Marc,
> 
> I probably won't attempt networking again (I did once), as I don't have a
> crossover cable and it's very convenient just to use the flash drive.  It
> would be good to know how to do it though and I'm sure other would
> appreciate that info.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Terry
> 
>> 
>> 

From cctalk at snarc.net  Thu Feb  8 00:53:08 2018
From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 01:53:08 -0500
Subject: Final reminder! VCF Pacific Northwest is this weekend
Message-ID: <e045186c-90b5-ad21-8cf9-cd5d2538a8fe@snarc.net>

Helloooooooooooooo cctalkers.

We've been planning this for almost a year and now it is time for the 
inaugural Vintage Computer Festival Pacific Northwest, this weekend 
(10am-5pm both days) at Living Computers: Museum+Labs in Seattle.

There will be all the usual goodness that you expect from a Vintage 
Computer Federation event: computer museum tours, incredible exhibits, 
amazing venue, interesting presentations, consignment booth, food, tours 
of the nearby Connections Museum, and you can pick up a snazzy VCFed 
mousepad or coffee mug. :)

If you live within a day's drive then you owe it to yourself to check 
out this show! All the details are at www.vcfed.org and don't forget to 
use #vcfpnw in social media posts.

And of course, if you see me there then please come say hello. I love 
meeting Internet people in person.

Special thanks to our supporters: LC:ML, Hackaday, ACM, and the IEEE 
History Center.

-Evan

________________________________
Evan Koblentz, director
Vintage Computer Federation
a 501(c)3 educational non-profit

evan at vcfed.org
(646) 546-9999

www.vcfed.org
facebook.com/vcfederation
twitter.com/vcfederation

From terry at webweavers.co.nz  Thu Feb  8 02:11:04 2018
From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 21:11:04 +1300
Subject: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.
In-Reply-To: <0e5a4b71-d025-0a6c-233c-a1b8b5aeda52@sydex.com>
References: <CACaZngmLmb5PAtUO_BosuSz_KzVSoZCf04A5edHf9Kc5vALJ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <de780a0b-81f3-b923-02a0-7e22de42d147@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <0e5a4b71-d025-0a6c-233c-a1b8b5aeda52@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CACaZngkDpfVRL3Lm7vb7=R9uGYk34X5uY6_yhOyYcoXkfqGoZQ@mail.gmail.com>

>I recall using these drivers several years ago.

>As I recall, the problem is that they're not amenable to hot-swapping.
>That is, is you're using a USB flash drive with them, there was no code
>that allowed you to remove the drive and substitute another without
>rebooting.

>Has this situation changed?

Good question Chuck.  Certainly the Windows 98SE one allows hot swapping if
you "stop" the drive but I haven't tried swapping with the MS-DOS ones.  I
would doubt it as there is no facility in MS-DOS I know to "unmount" one
and recognise another separately from driver load on boot.

Fortunately this functionality isn't important to me as I ever only use the
USB sticks to file transfer so one per sitting is all I need.

Terry (Tez)

From useddec at gmail.com  Thu Feb  8 02:53:46 2018
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 02:53:46 -0600
Subject: anybody need a 25 foot Unibus cable?
In-Reply-To: <5A7BE420.40509@pico-systems.com>
References: <656e5130-984d-8b48-bb53-bc49adc55634@gmail.com>
 <5A64F1C1.2020204@pico-systems.com> <5A7BE420.40509@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuNno4Dn=7b-=dS4jPSP4Gop+wX_s-O3-eFaoZM7BDqW0g@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Jon,

I'm hopefully building a few Unibus systems later this rear. I have several
10 and maybe a 15 foot cables, but I never thought about needing anything
longer. In a 4 rack system that becomes a real possibility. You better let
me know what you want for it...

Thanks, Paul

On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 11:46 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org
> wrote:

> While cleaning up at work, I found a 25 foot Unibus cable in decent
> condition.  Anybody need one?
>
> Jon
>

From terry at webweavers.co.nz  Thu Feb  8 03:27:31 2018
From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 22:27:31 +1300
Subject: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.
In-Reply-To: <9d486422-02a0-bff2-6410-e911e43c7854@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <CACaZngmLmb5PAtUO_BosuSz_KzVSoZCf04A5edHf9Kc5vALJ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <de780a0b-81f3-b923-02a0-7e22de42d147@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CACaZngkJeSVLsL4i98ZQ_FVSJ9WMO1AXBvgNg-Ft3076_hL7gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <3e54aa92-ec2c-3660-a01a-8936ad43a7d5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <9d486422-02a0-bff2-6410-e911e43c7854@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <CACaZngm8qGohHt=Fh5axeq0_YYkoZT-VKX6+Kx5AVJwLDL_TiA@mail.gmail.com>

 >That link mentions ExittoDOS.pif, and searches for it turn up related
information about dosstart.bat.
>I'd suggest digging around for them and some web searches.

Hmm..interesting.

>From a brief search and a test it seems using these files (or at least ones
similar to those described) may have allowed use of the MS-DOS drivers in
MS-DOS 7.1 but only AFTER a reboot from the GUI.  According to this..

http://madsenworld.dk/con_auto/index-uk.htm#dosstart

..dosstart.bat seems to be used when you EXIT from Windows and reboot to
DOS, rather than the start of a boot.  .

As to ExittoDOS.pif, this doesn't seem to exist on a Windows 98SE install.
What does exist are three PIF files called Dosprmpt, MSDOS mode for games
and MSDOS modes for games with EMS and XMS support.  I found you can edit a
config.sys and autoexec.bat box as part of the program's properties.
HOWEVER, these configs only seem to take effect with exiting Windows from
"Shut Down" --> "Restart in MSDOS mode".  I can't see anywhere how you can
use these BEFORE the GUI is loaded.  Certainly going straight to the
command line doesn't load them. What IS loaded when you do that is what's
ever in the existing config.sys and autoexec.bat.

As I don't want to waste time loading the GUI first, I'll stick with what
I've done.  It works and is quite efficient...but it does seem strange
there is no built-in facility to select an alternative Config.sys and
autoexec.bat if the user is going straight for the built in CLI on boot?
You would think that would be an obvious need.  It's always possible I
might have overlooked something, although I did spend a fair amount of time
in the search, and testing various permutations.

Terry (Tez)







On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 5:58 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 02/07/2018 09:53 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
>
>> According to the following link from IBM, the process we are both
>> thinking of is valid, just using different files.
>>
>> http://ps-2.kev009.com/pcpartnerinfo/ctstips/c546.htm
>>
>
> That link mentions ExittoDOS.pif, and searches for it turn up related
> information about dosstart.bat.
>
> I'd suggest digging around for them and some web searches.
>
> I don't currently have a 9x (V)M to test things on.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die
>

From robert626001 at gmail.com  Thu Feb  8 06:35:09 2018
From: robert626001 at gmail.com (Robert)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 06:35:09 -0600
Subject: OpenVMS software repositories?
In-Reply-To: <AC690F9A-311B-4707-B3DD-0D26C53706F3@avanthar.com>
References: <FDE007EB-6FE4-43F8-A443-D8CF079BEF69@avanthar.com>
 <650e9675-fe77-67bd-c929-daff9e711966@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <AC690F9A-311B-4707-B3DD-0D26C53706F3@avanthar.com>
Message-ID: <CAHDf=2V3nX3UoudMRkrFxhod4gWOXZS3v+fGd=5QbUWJwes7fQ@mail.gmail.com>

If it's of any interest, I recently found a copy of WordPerfect 7 for
OpenVMS. I'd be happy to upload an ISO, if one isn't already available
everywhere.

On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 9:30 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> On Feb 7, 2018, at 7:22 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> On 02/07/2018 06:35 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>>> What sites still exist that have VMS software?  I know the about the OpenVMS Freeware CD?s from HP VMS Engineering.
>>
>> I'd suggest that you redirect your question to the comp.os.vms newsgroup.  I frequently see discussions there about software archives. In fact, you can probably search an archive of the group and find some answers to your question.
>
> I need to see about getting back on comp.os.vms, I?ve not been active there in a decade.
>
> Zane
>
>
>
>

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  8 07:28:15 2018
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 13:28:15 +0000
Subject: OpenVMS software repositories?
In-Reply-To: <AC690F9A-311B-4707-B3DD-0D26C53706F3@avanthar.com>
References: <FDE007EB-6FE4-43F8-A443-D8CF079BEF69@avanthar.com>
 <650e9675-fe77-67bd-c929-daff9e711966@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <AC690F9A-311B-4707-B3DD-0D26C53706F3@avanthar.com>
Message-ID: <BN1PR0101MB07544C151881D593BDFB267FEDF30@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>



On 02/07/2018 10:30 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>> On Feb 7, 2018, at 7:22 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> On 02/07/2018 06:35 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>>> What sites still exist that have VMS software?  I know the about the OpenVMS Freeware CD?s from HP VMS Engineering.
>> I'd suggest that you redirect your question to the comp.os.vms newsgroup.  I frequently see discussions there about software archives. In fact, you can probably search an archive of the group and find some answers to your question.
> I need to see about getting back on comp.os.vms, I?ve not been active there in a decade.
>
>

Don't worry, it hasn't changed a bit.? :-)

bill


From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  8 09:02:28 2018
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 15:02:28 +0000
Subject: Maxtor full-height 5.25" drives of death
In-Reply-To: <CAHQ+QWCXvL+3jUY_mDjJvVPiBVqukEtn=YcchOxy=6Rft_Qj+w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHQ+QWBQ9eojB4kU7qC6gGs0Yj3rX5cCFcrM_U_sgLhT49VrFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <09ac51d2-cb12-b5ee-12ba-3feddc7c49f8@gmail.com>,
 <CAHQ+QWCXvL+3jUY_mDjJvVPiBVqukEtn=YcchOxy=6Rft_Qj+w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR14MB16007E674141ECBA6B682C81A3F30@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>

Although, it may seem that the heat while running can't effect a stored drive, heat is still a major contributor to such failures. Heat causes the seal on leads to fracture. While sitting on the shelf, moisture and other atmospheric contaminants get to the silicon inside. Most silicon has some layer of passivation but that can be compromised by heat as well.

Most failures are still related to the bonding wires. Exposure to the atmosphere will oxidize aluminum bonding, causing failure.

Dwight



________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Ian Finder via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 7, 2018 11:50:09 AM
To: allison; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Maxtor full-height 5.25" drives of death

> Drives of the day were power hungry and ran hot.  Heat is a killer.

Yes, certainly heat is why these drives go onto a shelf working and come
off of it broken with servo and head amplifier problems at an astonishing
rate far higher than their contemporary brethren.
It also helps answer my question of common failure modes- surely, it must
be the refrigeration on the drives that fails while it is on the shelf.
Perhaps the freon slowly leaks.

Thank you for this insightful response.

From healyzh at avanthar.com  Thu Feb  8 09:39:35 2018
From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 07:39:35 -0800
Subject: OpenVMS software repositories?
In-Reply-To: <BN1PR0101MB07544C151881D593BDFB267FEDF30@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <FDE007EB-6FE4-43F8-A443-D8CF079BEF69@avanthar.com>
 <650e9675-fe77-67bd-c929-daff9e711966@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <AC690F9A-311B-4707-B3DD-0D26C53706F3@avanthar.com>
 <BN1PR0101MB07544C151881D593BDFB267FEDF30@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <07FE7277-B9FC-4449-943B-4BDCF6F5E326@avanthar.com>


> On Feb 8, 2018, at 5:28 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On 02/07/2018 10:30 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>>> On Feb 7, 2018, at 7:22 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On 02/07/2018 06:35 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>>>> What sites still exist that have VMS software?  I know the about the OpenVMS Freeware CD?s from HP VMS Engineering.
>>> I'd suggest that you redirect your question to the comp.os.vms newsgroup.  I frequently see discussions there about software archives. In fact, you can probably search an archive of the group and find some answers to your question.
>> I need to see about getting back on comp.os.vms, I?ve not been active there in a decade.
>> 
>> 
> 
> Don't worry, it hasn't changed a bit.  :-)
> 
> bill

I?m sure.  I just need to figure out how to get access, preferably with ?tin'.  One of the reasons I dropped off was time, another was my ISP dropping USENET access.

Zane



From dan at ekoan.com  Thu Feb  8 09:51:22 2018
From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 10:51:22 -0500
Subject: FS: Livingston Portmaster 2e
In-Reply-To: <CAK7dMtCdEqvx-v2bZiB53Hv6=f=5xjzi_2Bf9XjF7fkmj1Jm9A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7dMtCdEqvx-v2bZiB53Hv6=f=5xjzi_2Bf9XjF7fkmj1Jm9A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48bbc301-4ea2-c695-4555-390427c73d36@ekoan.com>

Hi Kevin,

Just checking in to see if this unit was sold.

Thanks!


Cheers,
Dan



On 1/15/2018 10:42 AM, Kevin Bowling via cctalk wrote:
> This one is fully upgraded to 30 serial ports.  Just shoot me an
> offer, I'll probably say yes
> 
> Regards,
> Kevin
> 

From johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  8 09:56:42 2018
From: johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com (John H. Reinhardt)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 09:56:42 -0600
Subject: OpenVMS software repositories?
In-Reply-To: <07FE7277-B9FC-4449-943B-4BDCF6F5E326@avanthar.com>
References: <FDE007EB-6FE4-43F8-A443-D8CF079BEF69@avanthar.com>
 <650e9675-fe77-67bd-c929-daff9e711966@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <AC690F9A-311B-4707-B3DD-0D26C53706F3@avanthar.com>
 <BN1PR0101MB07544C151881D593BDFB267FEDF30@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <07FE7277-B9FC-4449-943B-4BDCF6F5E326@avanthar.com>
Message-ID: <aa976376-5479-abdc-ec83-cfba109c598e@yahoo.com>

On 2/8/2018 9:39 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> On Feb 8, 2018, at 5:28 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> On 02/07/2018 10:30 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>>>> On Feb 7, 2018, at 7:22 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 02/07/2018 06:35 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>>>>> What sites still exist that have VMS software?  I know the about the OpenVMS Freeware CD?s from HP VMS Engineering.
>>>> I'd suggest that you redirect your question to the comp.os.vms newsgroup.  I frequently see discussions there about software archives. In fact, you can probably search an archive of the group and find some answers to your question.
>>> I need to see about getting back on comp.os.vms, I?ve not been active there in a decade.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Don't worry, it hasn't changed a bit.  :-)
>>
>> bill
> 
> I?m sure.  I just need to figure out how to get access, preferably with ?tin'.  One of the reasons I dropped off was time, another was my ISP dropping USENET access.
> 
> Zane
> 
> 
> 

You might try <http://www.eternal-september.org> . I don't know if tin will work, but it's recommended by Hoff and others.  It's free and reasonably frustration free.  They have had a couple server hiccups in the last year though.  I use it via Thunderbird on my Mac without too much trouble.

-- 
John H. Reinhardt

From mazzinia at tin.it  Thu Feb  8 09:56:58 2018
From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 16:56:58 +0100
Subject: R: OpenVMS software repositories?
In-Reply-To: <07FE7277-B9FC-4449-943B-4BDCF6F5E326@avanthar.com>
References: <FDE007EB-6FE4-43F8-A443-D8CF079BEF69@avanthar.com>
 <650e9675-fe77-67bd-c929-daff9e711966@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <AC690F9A-311B-4707-B3DD-0D26C53706F3@avanthar.com>
 <BN1PR0101MB07544C151881D593BDFB267FEDF30@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <07FE7277-B9FC-4449-943B-4BDCF6F5E326@avanthar.com>
Message-ID: <00a601d3a0f5$73504b30$59f0e190$@tin.it>

Tin user here.

Just use : diesel.cu.mi.it  as usenet server
(another alternative would be registering for a free free.xsusenet.com account, but that one needs to be renewed every few weeks. Anyway they warn and send a link every time)

-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Zane Healy via cctalk
Inviato: gioved? 8 febbraio 2018 16:40
A: Bill Gunshannon; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Oggetto: Re: OpenVMS software repositories?


> On Feb 8, 2018, at 5:28 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On 02/07/2018 10:30 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>>> On Feb 7, 2018, at 7:22 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On 02/07/2018 06:35 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>>>> What sites still exist that have VMS software?  I know the about the OpenVMS Freeware CD?s from HP VMS Engineering.
>>> I'd suggest that you redirect your question to the comp.os.vms newsgroup.  I frequently see discussions there about software archives. In fact, you can probably search an archive of the group and find some answers to your question.
>> I need to see about getting back on comp.os.vms, I?ve not been active there in a decade.
>> 
>> 
> 
> Don't worry, it hasn't changed a bit.  :-)
> 
> bill

I?m sure.  I just need to figure out how to get access, preferably with ?tin'.  One of the reasons I dropped off was time, another was my ISP dropping USENET access.

Zane



From johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  8 10:02:18 2018
From: johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com (John H. Reinhardt)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 10:02:18 -0600
Subject: OpenVMS software repositories?
In-Reply-To: <aa976376-5479-abdc-ec83-cfba109c598e@yahoo.com>
References: <FDE007EB-6FE4-43F8-A443-D8CF079BEF69@avanthar.com>
 <650e9675-fe77-67bd-c929-daff9e711966@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <AC690F9A-311B-4707-B3DD-0D26C53706F3@avanthar.com>
 <BN1PR0101MB07544C151881D593BDFB267FEDF30@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <07FE7277-B9FC-4449-943B-4BDCF6F5E326@avanthar.com>
 <aa976376-5479-abdc-ec83-cfba109c598e@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4e498b25-d79d-b538-fddb-af34bf077001@yahoo.com>

On 2/8/2018 9:56 AM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote:
> On 2/8/2018 9:39 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>>
>>> On Feb 8, 2018, at 5:28 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 02/07/2018 10:30 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>>>>> On Feb 7, 2018, at 7:22 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On 02/07/2018 06:35 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>>>>>> What sites still exist that have VMS software?? I know the about the OpenVMS Freeware CD?s from HP VMS Engineering.
>>>>> I'd suggest that you redirect your question to the comp.os.vms newsgroup.? I frequently see discussions there about software archives. In fact, you can probably search an archive of the group and find some answers to your question.
>>>> I need to see about getting back on comp.os.vms, I?ve not been active there in a decade.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Don't worry, it hasn't changed a bit.? :-)
>>>
>>> bill
>>
>> I?m sure.? I just need to figure out how to get access, preferably with ?tin'.? One of the reasons I dropped off was time, another was my ISP dropping USENET access.
>>
>> Zane
>>
>>
>>
> 
> You might try <http://www.eternal-september.org> . I don't know if tin will work, but it's recommended by Hoff and others.? It's free and reasonably frustration free.? They have had a couple server hiccups in the last year though.? I use it via Thunderbird on my Mac without too much trouble.
> 

Apparently tin will work. It's listed under their "FAQ" section as possibly needing a special tweak.

tin
add the following line to the .newsauth file in your home directory (or create the file, if it doesn't exist) and make sure the file is only readable and writable for your user (chmod .newsauth 600):

news.eternal-september.org password username

and start tin with the -A option



-- 
John H. Reinhardt

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  8 11:06:50 2018
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 17:06:50 +0000
Subject: OpenVMS software repositories?
In-Reply-To: <4e498b25-d79d-b538-fddb-af34bf077001@yahoo.com>
References: <FDE007EB-6FE4-43F8-A443-D8CF079BEF69@avanthar.com>
 <650e9675-fe77-67bd-c929-daff9e711966@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <AC690F9A-311B-4707-B3DD-0D26C53706F3@avanthar.com>
 <BN1PR0101MB07544C151881D593BDFB267FEDF30@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <07FE7277-B9FC-4449-943B-4BDCF6F5E326@avanthar.com>
 <aa976376-5479-abdc-ec83-cfba109c598e@yahoo.com>
 <4e498b25-d79d-b538-fddb-af34bf077001@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BN1PR0101MB07542786725304747ED26625EDF30@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>



On 02/08/2018 11:02 AM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote:
> On 2/8/2018 9:56 AM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote:
>> On 2/8/2018 9:39 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Feb 8, 2018, at 5:28 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk 
>>>> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 02/07/2018 10:30 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>>>>>> On Feb 7, 2018, at 7:22 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk 
>>>>>> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 02/07/2018 06:35 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>>>>>>> What sites still exist that have VMS software?? I know the about 
>>>>>>> the OpenVMS Freeware CD?s from HP VMS Engineering.
>>>>>> I'd suggest that you redirect your question to the comp.os.vms 
>>>>>> newsgroup.? I frequently see discussions there about software 
>>>>>> archives. In fact, you can probably search an archive of the 
>>>>>> group and find some answers to your question.
>>>>> I need to see about getting back on comp.os.vms, I?ve not been 
>>>>> active there in a decade.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Don't worry, it hasn't changed a bit.? :-)
>>>>
>>>> bill
>>>
>>> I?m sure.? I just need to figure out how to get access, preferably 
>>> with ?tin'.? One of the reasons I dropped off was time, another was 
>>> my ISP dropping USENET access.
>>>
>>> Zane
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> You might try <http://www.eternal-september.org> . I don't know if 
>> tin will work, but it's recommended by Hoff and others. It's free and 
>> reasonably frustration free.? They have had a couple server hiccups 
>> in the last year though.? I use it via Thunderbird on my Mac without 
>> too much trouble.
>>
>
> Apparently tin will work. It's listed under their "FAQ" section as 
> possibly needing a special tweak.
>
> tin
> add the following line to the .newsauth file in your home directory 
> (or create the file, if it doesn't exist) and make sure the file is 
> only readable and writable for your user (chmod .newsauth 600):
>
> news.eternal-september.org password username
>
> and start tin with the -A option
>
>
>
I recommended new.individual.net.? It isn't free, but 10 Euros a year
isn't really a concern.? (I spend more than that a month on beer!)
Service has always been great.? Been with them since the days when
it was U Berlin.

bill



From t.gardner at computer.org  Thu Feb  8 13:03:19 2018
From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 11:03:19 -0800
Subject: Maxtor full-height 5.25" drives of death
In-Reply-To: <CAHQ+QWBQ9eojB4kU7qC6gGs0Yj3rX5cCFcrM_U_sgLhT49VrFg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHQ+QWBQ9eojB4kU7qC6gGs0Yj3rX5cCFcrM_U_sgLhT49VrFg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007501d3a10f$7c1998b0$744cca10$@computer.org>

XT2190 was first produced in 3Q 1984 and last produced in 1989 which gives yours a remarkable life span and well beyond the them at most 5 year warranty.
Be thankful they lasted this long.

Tom

-----Original Message-----
From: Ian Finder [mailto:ian.finder at gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 11:36 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Maxtor full-height 5.25" drives of death

XT2190s, XT1140s, some of the early ESDI disks...
I have 6 XT2190s at home, and maybe one of the damn things works.

Does anyone out here know, beyond speculation, what some of the common failure modes of these drives are? I'm not opposed to open-HDA surgery.

And I probably won't do anything.
But the question of WHY this line of drives in particular sucks so much has haunted me for some time...

- Ian

Honorable mention: CDC Sabre, Wren.

-- 
   Ian Finder
   (206) 395-MIPS
   ian.finder at gmail.com



From ian.finder at gmail.com  Thu Feb  8 14:05:45 2018
From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 12:05:45 -0800
Subject: Maxtor full-height 5.25" drives of death
In-Reply-To: <007501d3a10f$7c1998b0$744cca10$@computer.org>
References: <CAHQ+QWBQ9eojB4kU7qC6gGs0Yj3rX5cCFcrM_U_sgLhT49VrFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <007501d3a10f$7c1998b0$744cca10$@computer.org>
Message-ID: <3B877925-5F0C-4669-A7DC-12902A42181D@gmail.com>

On Feb 8, 2018, at 11:03, Tom Gardner via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> XT2190 was first produced in 3Q 1984 and last produced in 1989 which gives yours a remarkable life span and well beyond the them at most 5 year warranty.
> Be thankful they lasted this long.

Good point. 

The lisp machines I?ve been using the drives with are way past their prime too- pushing 34+ years outside of their warranty.

I think next time one fails, instead of trying to understand the problem and repair it so it can last another 30, I?ll just be thankful it lasted this long, gold scrap the boards, and build a gaming PC out of the case. 

It did, after all, have a good run. /s

I will now try, likely in vain, to put this thread back on the rails-

A colleague, offline, in the first useful and on-topic response to my query, tells me that there is an analog head preamplifier on the ribbon inside the HDA which is suspect- a drop out here can cause both the ?missing head? behavior, as well as the bad positioning behavior- if the head is on the servo track- common to these drives. 

This makes intuitive sense.

As there are a number of machines that *require* the ESDI Maxtor models- IBM RT, early SGI, Symbolics- in the absence of an ESDI emulator- I think repairs are a good option.

I?ll experiment on a 2190 MFM model I recently imaged that shows up with lots of errors on the same heads. It uses the same HDA as the ESDI models.

I?ll report back here, though it seems no one on the list is interested in discussion beyond anecdotes when it comes to 80s hardware.

My hope is that it simply needs the joints attaching it to the ribbon reflowed.

- I


> 
> Tom
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ian Finder [mailto:ian.finder at gmail.com] 
> Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 11:36 AM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Maxtor full-height 5.25" drives of death
> 
> XT2190s, XT1140s, some of the early ESDI disks...
> I have 6 XT2190s at home, and maybe one of the damn things works.
> 
> Does anyone out here know, beyond speculation, what some of the common failure modes of these drives are? I'm not opposed to open-HDA surgery.
> 
> And I probably won't do anything.
> But the question of WHY this line of drives in particular sucks so much has haunted me for some time...
> 
> - Ian
> 
> Honorable mention: CDC Sabre, Wren.
> 
> -- 
>   Ian Finder
>   (206) 395-MIPS
>   ian.finder at gmail.com
> 
> 

From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Feb  8 14:28:20 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 12:28:20 -0800
Subject: Maxtor full-height 5.25" drives of death
In-Reply-To: <3B877925-5F0C-4669-A7DC-12902A42181D@gmail.com>
References: <CAHQ+QWBQ9eojB4kU7qC6gGs0Yj3rX5cCFcrM_U_sgLhT49VrFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <007501d3a10f$7c1998b0$744cca10$@computer.org>
 <3B877925-5F0C-4669-A7DC-12902A42181D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20d26f92-5458-5eb2-5838-f3c622ffeec6@bitsavers.org>



On 2/8/18 12:05 PM, Ian via cctalk wrote:
> it seems no one on the list is interested in discussion beyond anecdotes when it comes to 80s hardware.
> 

Little concrete analysis has actually been done on these drives that has been released outside the
drive recovery shops.

I would suspect the heads themselves before the preamps.



From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Thu Feb  8 14:44:07 2018
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 13:44:07 -0700
Subject: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.
In-Reply-To: <D362174A-97F0-423D-9575-3008BAEDD84C@gmail.com>
References: <CACaZngmLmb5PAtUO_BosuSz_KzVSoZCf04A5edHf9Kc5vALJ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <B530D072-62DF-45AD-9F2B-B2561FA3D2B8@gmail.com>
 <CACaZngkwEXynaaDeohO_jrbYpCvTMjWS+5DLen2Acm77ONx-0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <D362174A-97F0-423D-9575-3008BAEDD84C@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <647b9dea-7726-ddbc-c683-df4eea6fdeae@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 02/07/2018 11:27 PM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote:
> Here you go:
> 
> Networking between Win98 and Win7
> 
> On Windows 7, using regedit, set 
> ?HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\System\CurrentControlSet\Control\Lsa\LMCompatibilityLevel? 
> to ?1? You might need to create the new entry under \lsa as a 
> REG_DWORD, set to 1

I wonder what that does to the security posture of Windows 7.  Though, 
chances are good that's not as big a concern for a hobbyist.  (Assuming 
that they are more responsible about keeping other things up to date 
than the average person.)

> On the Win98 machine: You have to install the Active Directory Extension, 
> part of the unofficial service pack 3 which you have to download It's 
> the first option on the install. I installed just that.

It's been too long.  Is the AD Extension strictly necessary on Windows 
98?  I thought that was to allow 98 to brows DFS and as such wasn't 
strictly needed to use old classic \\server\share UNC format.

> Then from there it's regular stuff: put the machines on the same workgroup 
> name, enable sharing of your folders, permissions, etc...

ACK  I expect that it's standard SMB networking (woes).

> From Win7, the Win98 machine appears in the Network, just click on it 
> to browse the shares

*nod*

> From Win98, Win7 is not accessible from the Network Neighborhood. You 
> have to type directly the share address in an Explorer toolbar window 
> like so \\Workshop\SharedFolder I had to shorten my share names for this 
> to work, long names did not work.

I wonder if this is an issue with Windows 98 not doing something, or an 
issue with Windows 7 not sending out broadcasts.

This sounds like classic SMB browse master related issues.  (I wonder if 
WINS server might help.)

Oh God, the bad old days of SMB.

Follow up question.  -  What protocol did you use?  TCP/IP?  I assume 
that Windows 7 doesn't have NetBEUI.  (I've not looked and I know 
Microsoft was trying to deprecate it.)

Thank you for sharing Marc.  :-)



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Thu Feb  8 14:37:44 2018
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 15:37:44 -0500
Subject: Maxtor full-height 5.25" drives of death
References: <CAHQ+QWBQ9eojB4kU7qC6gGs0Yj3rX5cCFcrM_U_sgLhT49VrFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <007501d3a10f$7c1998b0$744cca10$@computer.org>
 <3B877925-5F0C-4669-A7DC-12902A42181D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <85AD79A636E143B8BF9BB84E49830A45@310e2>

I'm definitely interested but didn't have anything to contribute other than that I have both XT2190s and XT1140s that are still working (at least for now).

So yes, please share whatever you find.

m

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ian via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
To: "Tom Gardner" <t.gardner at computer.org>; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2018 3:05 PM
Subject: Re: Maxtor full-height 5.25" drives of death


On Feb 8, 2018, at 11:03, Tom Gardner via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> XT2190 was first produced in 3Q 1984 and last produced in 1989 which gives yours a remarkable life span and well beyond the them at most 5 year warranty.
> Be thankful they lasted this long.

Good point. 

The lisp machines I?ve been using the drives with are way past their prime too- pushing 34+ years outside of their warranty.

I think next time one fails, instead of trying to understand the problem and repair it so it can last another 30, I?ll just be thankful it lasted this long, gold scrap the boards, and build a gaming PC out of the case. 

It did, after all, have a good run. /s

I will now try, likely in vain, to put this thread back on the rails-

A colleague, offline, in the first useful and on-topic response to my query, tells me that there is an analog head preamplifier on the ribbon inside the HDA which is suspect- a drop out here can cause both the ?missing head? behavior, as well as the bad positioning behavior- if the head is on the servo track- common to these drives. 

This makes intuitive sense.

As there are a number of machines that *require* the ESDI Maxtor models- IBM RT, early SGI, Symbolics- in the absence of an ESDI emulator- I think repairs are a good option.

I?ll experiment on a 2190 MFM model I recently imaged that shows up with lots of errors on the same heads. It uses the same HDA as the ESDI models.

I?ll report back here, though it seems no one on the list is interested in discussion beyond anecdotes when it comes to 80s hardware.

My hope is that it simply needs the joints attaching it to the ribbon reflowed.

- I


> 
> Tom
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ian Finder [mailto:ian.finder at gmail.com] 
> Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 11:36 AM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Maxtor full-height 5.25" drives of death
> 
> XT2190s, XT1140s, some of the early ESDI disks...
> I have 6 XT2190s at home, and maybe one of the damn things works.
> 
> Does anyone out here know, beyond speculation, what some of the common failure modes of these drives are? I'm not opposed to open-HDA surgery.
> 
> And I probably won't do anything.
> But the question of WHY this line of drives in particular sucks so much has haunted me for some time...
> 
> - Ian
> 
> Honorable mention: CDC Sabre, Wren.
> 
> -- 
>   Ian Finder
>   (206) 395-MIPS
>   ian.finder at gmail.com
> 
>

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Feb  8 14:48:20 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 12:48:20 -0800
Subject: Maxtor full-height 5.25" drives of death
In-Reply-To: <20d26f92-5458-5eb2-5838-f3c622ffeec6@bitsavers.org>
References: <CAHQ+QWBQ9eojB4kU7qC6gGs0Yj3rX5cCFcrM_U_sgLhT49VrFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <007501d3a10f$7c1998b0$744cca10$@computer.org>
 <3B877925-5F0C-4669-A7DC-12902A42181D@gmail.com>
 <20d26f92-5458-5eb2-5838-f3c622ffeec6@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <07a35cfc-3e95-b9d2-ec4b-4ef11fb987ca@sydex.com>

On 02/08/2018 12:28 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
> On 2/8/18 12:05 PM, Ian via cctalk wrote:
>> it seems no one on the list is interested in discussion beyond anecdotes when it comes to 80s hardware.
>>
> 
> Little concrete analysis has actually been done on these drives that has been released outside the
> drive recovery shops.

Speaking for myself, I don't see this as a lack of interest, but rather
acknowledging the inevitable.  These drives are mechanical devices,
subject to the eventual problems of wear.  Hey, they've survived better
than that old Yugo sitting in the junkyard.

I've got a few Maxtor ST506, SCSI, and ESDI-interface FH drives.   Some
of them even work.  But I'm not surprised when they stop working.


--Chuck


From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Thu Feb  8 14:48:31 2018
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 13:48:31 -0700
Subject: OpenVMS software repositories?
In-Reply-To: <07FE7277-B9FC-4449-943B-4BDCF6F5E326@avanthar.com>
References: <FDE007EB-6FE4-43F8-A443-D8CF079BEF69@avanthar.com>
 <650e9675-fe77-67bd-c929-daff9e711966@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <AC690F9A-311B-4707-B3DD-0D26C53706F3@avanthar.com>
 <BN1PR0101MB07544C151881D593BDFB267FEDF30@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <07FE7277-B9FC-4449-943B-4BDCF6F5E326@avanthar.com>
Message-ID: <f65598d3-902d-1d6f-90ec-59fda7d72889@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 02/08/2018 08:39 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
> I?m sure.  I just need to figure out how to get access, preferably 
> with ?tin'.  One of the reasons I dropped off was time, another was 
> my ISP dropping USENET access.

There are a number of free Usenet test-only servers, and a number of 
next to free binary feeds for text-only volumes.

  - Eternal-September (purportedly has issues from time to time)
  - AIOE

Those are the two that come to mind at the moment.

If that doesn't work for you let me know and I'll set you up with an 
account on my personal news server.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From useddec at gmail.com  Thu Feb  8 15:23:21 2018
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 15:23:21 -0600
Subject: anybody need a 25 foot Unibus cable?
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuNno4Dn=7b-=dS4jPSP4Gop+wX_s-O3-eFaoZM7BDqW0g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <656e5130-984d-8b48-bb53-bc49adc55634@gmail.com>
 <5A64F1C1.2020204@pico-systems.com> <5A7BE420.40509@pico-systems.com>
 <CACwhfuNno4Dn=7b-=dS4jPSP4Gop+wX_s-O3-eFaoZM7BDqW0g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuMwuPzHCvMfSGzFX=wXNxo8xchu+X0OcWYMhYej+gsJRg@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry, that should have been sent off list.

On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 2:53 AM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Jon,
>
> I'm hopefully building a few Unibus systems later this rear. I have
> several 10 and maybe a 15 foot cables, but I never thought about needing
> anything longer. In a 4 rack system that becomes a real possibility. You
> better let me know what you want for it...
>
> Thanks, Paul
>
> On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 11:46 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> While cleaning up at work, I found a 25 foot Unibus cable in decent
>> condition.  Anybody need one?
>>
>> Jon
>>
>
>

From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com  Thu Feb  8 18:03:23 2018
From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 16:03:23 -0800
Subject: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.
In-Reply-To: <CACaZngm8qGohHt=Fh5axeq0_YYkoZT-VKX6+Kx5AVJwLDL_TiA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACaZngmLmb5PAtUO_BosuSz_KzVSoZCf04A5edHf9Kc5vALJ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <de780a0b-81f3-b923-02a0-7e22de42d147@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CACaZngkJeSVLsL4i98ZQ_FVSJ9WMO1AXBvgNg-Ft3076_hL7gg@mail.gmail.com>
 <3e54aa92-ec2c-3660-a01a-8936ad43a7d5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <9d486422-02a0-bff2-6410-e911e43c7854@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CACaZngm8qGohHt=Fh5axeq0_YYkoZT-VKX6+Kx5AVJwLDL_TiA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <40A2D8E8-D498-405B-AEDA-B1421CD9C3FD@gmail.com>

> As to ExittoDOS.pif, this doesn't seem to exist on a Windows 98SE install.


If I remember well, the ExitToDOS file gets created automatically the first time you exit to DOS manually from Win98. I use it all the time to go back and forth from the DOS environment to the GUI (go back to GUI typing WIN). But like you I have it boot directly to DOS as the default. 
Marc

>> 

From ian.finder at gmail.com  Thu Feb  8 18:03:31 2018
From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 16:03:31 -0800
Subject: Maxtor full-height 5.25" drives of death
In-Reply-To: <07a35cfc-3e95-b9d2-ec4b-4ef11fb987ca@sydex.com>
References: <CAHQ+QWBQ9eojB4kU7qC6gGs0Yj3rX5cCFcrM_U_sgLhT49VrFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <007501d3a10f$7c1998b0$744cca10$@computer.org>
 <3B877925-5F0C-4669-A7DC-12902A42181D@gmail.com>
 <20d26f92-5458-5eb2-5838-f3c622ffeec6@bitsavers.org>
 <07a35cfc-3e95-b9d2-ec4b-4ef11fb987ca@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <EDE33003-0109-4787-993D-5D68ED6C20A9@gmail.com>


> 
>> On 02/08/2018 12:28 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
>> 
>> Little concrete analysis has actually been done on these drives that has been released outside the
>> drive recovery shops.

Al, thanks for the thoughtful response- I was genuinely unaware heads could simply fail outside of the obvious catastrophic modes. (I.E. head crashes)

I don?t have a lot of background here- what goes wrong with them?

I do wish that the cumulative knowledge developed by these data recovery outfits was just a smidge more public- and I know there are some outfits who claim to ?refurbish? old HDAs, although I have no idea what they actually do.

I?d be very curious if you or any other list members have more insight into how these processes work.

I would like to some day build an SMD and ESDI emulator, but until then there are a lot of misbehaved drives out there- and if there?s anything that can buy them time, even enough to get a good read, there?s goodness there.

- I

From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Feb  8 18:35:18 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 16:35:18 -0800
Subject: Maxtor full-height 5.25" drives of death
In-Reply-To: <EDE33003-0109-4787-993D-5D68ED6C20A9@gmail.com>
References: <CAHQ+QWBQ9eojB4kU7qC6gGs0Yj3rX5cCFcrM_U_sgLhT49VrFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <007501d3a10f$7c1998b0$744cca10$@computer.org>
 <3B877925-5F0C-4669-A7DC-12902A42181D@gmail.com>
 <20d26f92-5458-5eb2-5838-f3c622ffeec6@bitsavers.org>
 <07a35cfc-3e95-b9d2-ec4b-4ef11fb987ca@sydex.com>
 <EDE33003-0109-4787-993D-5D68ED6C20A9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a9a657d6-8814-cdd0-158a-3fbc5a12919f@bitsavers.org>



On 2/8/18 4:03 PM, Ian via cctalk wrote:
> 

> I don?t have a lot of background here- what goes wrong with them?
> 

I have been told a common failure mode was for them to open. Maybe something
bad happens between the platter and head over time (metal-metal corrosion)?

And who knows what sort of nastyness happens if the two are in contact for
extended periods of time in the presence of humidity.




From seefriek at gmail.com  Thu Feb  8 20:13:24 2018
From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 21:13:24 -0500
Subject: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.
Message-ID: <CAOrcWjx5tNGPCK28oOSBk1GKJpZ71aOC5x=+-bkfb2u5xLm8Tg@mail.gmail.com>

From: Curious Marc <curiousmarc3 at gmail.com>
>
> On Windows 7, using regedit, set
>        ?HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\System\CurrentControlSet\Control\Lsa\LMCompatibilityLevel? to ?1?
>        You might need to create the new entry under \lsa as a REG_DWORD, set to 1
>

As your friendly neighbourhood infosec type, please be aware that this
setting opens a rather nasty set of possible security issues.  Fine on
your lab network, but you probably don't want a machine configured
like that on a possibly hostile network.

KJ

From spacewar at gmail.com  Thu Feb  8 21:18:29 2018
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 20:18:29 -0700
Subject: Intel 8085 - interview?
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTSwPARJ4EsSM6bKbmbSt-1LrH9LbJC5L5K3-OOJTyaXgg@mail.gmail.com>

At some point I read an article or a transcript of an interview with an
Intel employee (or former employee) who had been involved with the design
of the 8085, describing how he had specified additional instructions over
those of the 8080, and they had been implemented in the silicon, but then
the decision was made to not document any of the new instructions other
than RIM and SIM.

I no longer recall which Intel employee that was, and can't find the
article or interview. Does anyone else remember that, and perhaps have a
copy?

Eric

From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Feb  8 22:56:11 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 20:56:11 -0800
Subject: Intel 8085 - interview?
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTSwPARJ4EsSM6bKbmbSt-1LrH9LbJC5L5K3-OOJTyaXgg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFrGgTSwPARJ4EsSM6bKbmbSt-1LrH9LbJC5L5K3-OOJTyaXgg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c0bc705c-198b-9575-59ea-47c058d68ce4@sydex.com>

On 02/08/2018 07:18 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote:
> At some point I read an article or a transcript of an interview with an
> Intel employee (or former employee) who had been involved with the design
> of the 8085, describing how he had specified additional instructions over
> those of the 8080, and they had been implemented in the silicon, but then
> the decision was made to not document any of the new instructions other
> than RIM and SIM.
> 
> I no longer recall which Intel employee that was, and can't find the
> article or interview. Does anyone else remember that, and perhaps have a
> copy?

Do you mean Cort Allen?   His email a couple of years ago was:

manofquest at aol.com

He wrote;

Actually, all of these instructions were 100% tested when they were
manufactured at Intel. The test program used to test these devices
contained all of these instructions and was written to do an extensive
test on ALL instructions in many combinations and order. So, unless the
8085 broke after it was shipped, these instructions were tested and were
working.

I know this because I was the Test Engineer at Intel that developed the
8085 Production Test Program. I wrote all the code for this test and it
ran on a Megatest @8000 test system.


From classiccmp at crash.com  Thu Feb  8 23:16:11 2018
From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 21:16:11 -0800
Subject: 8" floppy drives from AMD development system?
In-Reply-To: <51f951e1-3834-c7b2-69f5-cde8b8483392@bitsavers.org>
References: <8673b914-63b9-47e7-808e-a07d076461a8@crash.com>
 <51f951e1-3834-c7b2-69f5-cde8b8483392@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <ee85cdf0-ba74-d389-4038-814cd5c97274@crash.com>

On 02/07/2018 08:46, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> AMD made a whole Multibus product line covered in
> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/amd/multibus
> 
> in particular AMD_Multibus_OEM_Products_May84.pdf

Spot-on, thanks Al! Pictured on page 3-2 (aka 95 in xpdf).
When in doubt, check Bitsavers... ;)

From healyzh at avanthar.com  Thu Feb  8 23:19:56 2018
From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 21:19:56 -0800
Subject: OpenVMS software repositories?
In-Reply-To: <4e498b25-d79d-b538-fddb-af34bf077001@yahoo.com>
References: <FDE007EB-6FE4-43F8-A443-D8CF079BEF69@avanthar.com>
 <650e9675-fe77-67bd-c929-daff9e711966@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <AC690F9A-311B-4707-B3DD-0D26C53706F3@avanthar.com>
 <BN1PR0101MB07544C151881D593BDFB267FEDF30@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <07FE7277-B9FC-4449-943B-4BDCF6F5E326@avanthar.com>
 <aa976376-5479-abdc-ec83-cfba109c598e@yahoo.com>
 <4e498b25-d79d-b538-fddb-af34bf077001@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <F494357A-01AA-48BA-874E-31868C97A792@avanthar.com>


> On Feb 8, 2018, at 8:02 AM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On 2/8/2018 9:56 AM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote:
>> You might try <http://www.eternal-september.org> . I don't know if tin will work, but it's recommended by Hoff and others.  It's free and reasonably frustration free.  They have had a couple server hiccups in the last year though.  I use it via Thunderbird on my Mac without too much trouble.
> 
> Apparently tin will work. It's listed under their "FAQ" section as possibly needing a special tweak.
> 
> tin
> add the following line to the .newsauth file in your home directory (or create the file, if it doesn't exist) and make sure the file is only readable and writable for your user (chmod .newsauth 600):
> 
> news.eternal-september.org password username
> 
> and start tin with the -A option

Thanks!  If it?s recommended by Hoff, that?s good enough for me. :-)  I had to rebuild ?tin? as the version in the ports for OpenBSD doesn?t seem to work.  I?m now connected and reading through comp.os.vms. :-)  It?s good to see how many of the folks I remember are still there.

Zane




From mbbrutman at brutman.com  Thu Feb  8 23:56:29 2018
From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael Brutman)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 21:56:29 -0800
Subject: Final reminder! VCF Pacific Northwest is this weekend
In-Reply-To: <e045186c-90b5-ad21-8cf9-cd5d2538a8fe@snarc.net>
References: <e045186c-90b5-ad21-8cf9-cd5d2538a8fe@snarc.net>
Message-ID: <CA+bZ4SBDSy_rNfFyd2Q1P6kTMHc_w58cSDawnb8sBkrCA7Q9aA@mail.gmail.com>

The show details can be found here:

  http://vcfed.org/wp/festivals/vintage-computer-festival-pacific-northwest/

If you want to read the event program to get an idea of what the exhibits
are you can read it a PDF of it here:

  https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ImUkyWy4topH5A4lJZwIfiNAFbOwWM66


And yes, I really did use a dot matrix printer to do the show program. :-)

It has been a lot of work to get to this point.  Now comes the fun part
...  If you are in the area stop by and get both the museum and the show
for just the price of admission to the museum.  And don't forget to check
out the consignment area.


Mike

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Fri Feb  9 00:17:04 2018
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 22:17:04 -0800
Subject: Maxtor full-height 5.25" drives of death
In-Reply-To: <a9a657d6-8814-cdd0-158a-3fbc5a12919f@bitsavers.org>
References: <CAHQ+QWBQ9eojB4kU7qC6gGs0Yj3rX5cCFcrM_U_sgLhT49VrFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <007501d3a10f$7c1998b0$744cca10$@computer.org>
 <3B877925-5F0C-4669-A7DC-12902A42181D@gmail.com>
 <20d26f92-5458-5eb2-5838-f3c622ffeec6@bitsavers.org>
 <07a35cfc-3e95-b9d2-ec4b-4ef11fb987ca@sydex.com>
 <EDE33003-0109-4787-993D-5D68ED6C20A9@gmail.com>
 <a9a657d6-8814-cdd0-158a-3fbc5a12919f@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwLT1JPyLL-56TPCggk1Qpw6x-nHTpcyDAwd7qORTVWJkg@mail.gmail.com>

Any idea if the drive orientation during storage might make any
difference in the failure rate? Usual PCB side down, PCB side up,
either side down, either end down? My guess it that it is best to
store them in the usual PCB side down orientation, but that is just a
guess.

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb  9 00:40:24 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 22:40:24 -0800
Subject: Maxtor full-height 5.25" drives of death
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwLT1JPyLL-56TPCggk1Qpw6x-nHTpcyDAwd7qORTVWJkg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHQ+QWBQ9eojB4kU7qC6gGs0Yj3rX5cCFcrM_U_sgLhT49VrFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <007501d3a10f$7c1998b0$744cca10$@computer.org>
 <3B877925-5F0C-4669-A7DC-12902A42181D@gmail.com>
 <20d26f92-5458-5eb2-5838-f3c622ffeec6@bitsavers.org>
 <07a35cfc-3e95-b9d2-ec4b-4ef11fb987ca@sydex.com>
 <EDE33003-0109-4787-993D-5D68ED6C20A9@gmail.com>
 <a9a657d6-8814-cdd0-158a-3fbc5a12919f@bitsavers.org>
 <CAM2UOwLT1JPyLL-56TPCggk1Qpw6x-nHTpcyDAwd7qORTVWJkg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1e8cb92f-dd70-878c-c26d-e7052576b087@sydex.com>

On 02/08/2018 10:17 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote:
> Any idea if the drive orientation during storage might make any
> difference in the failure rate? Usual PCB side down, PCB side up,
> either side down, either end down? My guess it that it is best to
> store them in the usual PCB side down orientation, but that is just a
> guess.

Mine are stored on their sides, but I wonder if storing them inverted
(PCB down) would be best for ensuring lubrication distribution.

--Chuck


From emu at e-bbes.com  Fri Feb  9 02:15:38 2018
From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 09:15:38 +0100
Subject: Maxtor full-height 5.25" drives of death
In-Reply-To: <3B877925-5F0C-4669-A7DC-12902A42181D@gmail.com>
References: <CAHQ+QWBQ9eojB4kU7qC6gGs0Yj3rX5cCFcrM_U_sgLhT49VrFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <007501d3a10f$7c1998b0$744cca10$@computer.org>
 <3B877925-5F0C-4669-A7DC-12902A42181D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7af87367-6587-b368-7e52-eac4d8d1c108@e-bbes.com>

On 2018-02-08 21:05, Ian via cctalk wrote:
> On Feb 8, 2018, at 11:03, Tom Gardner via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> XT2190 was first produced in 3Q 1984 and last produced in 1989 which gives yours a remarkable life span and well beyond the them at most 5 year warranty.
>> Be thankful they lasted this long.
> 
> Good point. 
> 
> The lisp machines I?ve been using the drives with are way past their prime too- pushing 34+ years outside of their warranty.
> 
> I think next time one fails, instead of trying to understand the problem and repair it so it can last another 30, I?ll just be thankful it lasted this long, gold scrap the boards, and build a gaming PC out of the case. 

I thought there are some MFM drive emulators out there by now?

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Fri Feb  9 02:34:09 2018
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 08:34:09 -0000
Subject: Maxtor full-height 5.25" drives of death
In-Reply-To: <7af87367-6587-b368-7e52-eac4d8d1c108@e-bbes.com>
References: <CAHQ+QWBQ9eojB4kU7qC6gGs0Yj3rX5cCFcrM_U_sgLhT49VrFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <007501d3a10f$7c1998b0$744cca10$@computer.org>
 <3B877925-5F0C-4669-A7DC-12902A42181D@gmail.com>
 <7af87367-6587-b368-7e52-eac4d8d1c108@e-bbes.com>
Message-ID: <014801d3a180$c18cc3b0$44a64b10$@ntlworld.com>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of emanuel
> stiebler via cctalk
> Sent: 09 February 2018 08:16
> To: Ian <ian.finder at gmail.com>; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
> Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Maxtor full-height 5.25" drives of death
> 
> On 2018-02-08 21:05, Ian via cctalk wrote:
> > On Feb 8, 2018, at 11:03, Tom Gardner via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> XT2190 was first produced in 3Q 1984 and last produced in 1989 which gives
> yours a remarkable life span and well beyond the them at most 5 year
> warranty.
> >> Be thankful they lasted this long.
> >
> > Good point.
> >
> > The lisp machines I?ve been using the drives with are way past their prime
> too- pushing 34+ years outside of their warranty.
> >
> > I think next time one fails, instead of trying to understand the problem and
> repair it so it can last another 30, I?ll just be thankful it lasted this long, gold
> scrap the boards, and build a gaming PC out of the case.
> 
> I thought there are some MFM drive emulators out there by now?

Indeed there are. I use the one designed by David Gesswein, it is great. However I think the OP was talking about ESDI as well. I don't know how ESDI differs from MFM.

Regards

Rob 


From mj at mjturner.net  Fri Feb  9 04:08:51 2018
From: mj at mjturner.net (Michael-John Turner)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 10:08:51 +0000
Subject: OpenVMS software repositories?
In-Reply-To: <AC690F9A-311B-4707-B3DD-0D26C53706F3@avanthar.com>
References: <FDE007EB-6FE4-43F8-A443-D8CF079BEF69@avanthar.com>
 <650e9675-fe77-67bd-c929-daff9e711966@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <AC690F9A-311B-4707-B3DD-0D26C53706F3@avanthar.com>
Message-ID: <20180209100851.7vlfhjmnjuhgmdmo@saucer.turnde.net>

On Thu, Feb 08, 2018 at 03:30:17AM +0000, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>> On Feb 7, 2018, at 7:22 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> I'd suggest that you redirect your question to the comp.os.vms 
>> newsgroup.  I frequently see discussions there about software archives. 
>> In fact, you can probably search an archive of the group and find some 
>> answers to your question.
>
>I need to see about getting back on comp.os.vms, I???ve not been active there in a decade.

There's also the info-vax mailing list, which is a mail<->Usenet gateway 
for comp.os.vms.

[1] http://info-vax.com/mailman/listinfo/info-vax_info-vax.com

Cheers, MJ
-- 
Michael-John Turner * mj at mjturner.net * http://mjturner.net/ 


From allisonportable at gmail.com  Fri Feb  9 07:20:14 2018
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 08:20:14 -0500
Subject: Maxtor full-height 5.25" drives of death
In-Reply-To: <1e8cb92f-dd70-878c-c26d-e7052576b087@sydex.com>
References: <CAHQ+QWBQ9eojB4kU7qC6gGs0Yj3rX5cCFcrM_U_sgLhT49VrFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <007501d3a10f$7c1998b0$744cca10$@computer.org>
 <3B877925-5F0C-4669-A7DC-12902A42181D@gmail.com>
 <20d26f92-5458-5eb2-5838-f3c622ffeec6@bitsavers.org>
 <07a35cfc-3e95-b9d2-ec4b-4ef11fb987ca@sydex.com>
 <EDE33003-0109-4787-993D-5D68ED6C20A9@gmail.com>
 <a9a657d6-8814-cdd0-158a-3fbc5a12919f@bitsavers.org>
 <CAM2UOwLT1JPyLL-56TPCggk1Qpw6x-nHTpcyDAwd7qORTVWJkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1e8cb92f-dd70-878c-c26d-e7052576b087@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <d24cf626-0a7c-111f-26bb-a76a57599dda@gmail.com>

On 02/09/2018 01:40 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> On 02/08/2018 10:17 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote:
>> Any idea if the drive orientation during storage might make any
>> difference in the failure rate? Usual PCB side down, PCB side up,
>> either side down, either end down? My guess it that it is best to
>> store them in the usual PCB side down orientation, but that is just a
>> guess.
> Mine are stored on their sides, but I wonder if storing them inverted
> (PCB down) would be best for ensuring lubrication distribution.
>
> --Chuck
>
I've found flat pcb down seems better.? Those working are stored that
way and those
I've found for spares or parts are on their side currently.?? Most I've
found have been
fried already.

Most common problem head crash, likely due to handling. Second up are
servo issues
maybe due to high temps (some were formerly used in PCs with very poor
cooling)
and the remainder had board level issues.? Of the board level problems
the motor
drive fried, and positioner driver dead.? One had a bad microprocessor n
the
positioner subsystem.? The remainder seem to have likely suffered some ESD
or power supply hit.?

Like I said earlier these drives used a lot of power and ran hot, the
lonest lasting?
and still working units were in BA123 which has better cooling.? I know
from my
time at DEC if the drive was in a MicroVAX2000 the drive life was about
half and
a drive in a ba23 was longer lasting.? Also those mounted on edge seemed
a bit longer lasting.? The differential between the uVAX2J abd the BA123
life
was about 2:1 (about 2 years 24/7 against better than 4),

At the other extreme I have over a dozen Quantum D540s (RD52 31mb full
height)
that are really old and getting older and still work without issues.?
Some of those
have sat on the shelf for a decade and work fine when I need one.


Allison

From allisonportable at gmail.com  Fri Feb  9 07:22:19 2018
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 08:22:19 -0500
Subject: Intel 8085 - interview?
In-Reply-To: <c0bc705c-198b-9575-59ea-47c058d68ce4@sydex.com>
References: <CAFrGgTSwPARJ4EsSM6bKbmbSt-1LrH9LbJC5L5K3-OOJTyaXgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c0bc705c-198b-9575-59ea-47c058d68ce4@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <63a99aec-cb07-63d0-92e9-0d9d6ea03bf3@gmail.com>

On 02/08/2018 11:56 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> On 02/08/2018 07:18 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote:
>> At some point I read an article or a transcript of an interview with an
>> Intel employee (or former employee) who had been involved with the design
>> of the 8085, describing how he had specified additional instructions over
>> those of the 8080, and they had been implemented in the silicon, but then
>> the decision was made to not document any of the new instructions other
>> than RIM and SIM.
>>
>> I no longer recall which Intel employee that was, and can't find the
>> article or interview. Does anyone else remember that, and perhaps have a
>> copy?
> Do you mean Cort Allen?   His email a couple of years ago was:
>
> manofquest at aol.com
>
> He wrote;
>
> Actually, all of these instructions were 100% tested when they were
> manufactured at Intel. The test program used to test these devices
> contained all of these instructions and was written to do an extensive
> test on ALL instructions in many combinations and order. So, unless the
> 8085 broke after it was shipped, these instructions were tested and were
> working.
>
> I know this because I was the Test Engineer at Intel that developed the
> 8085 Production Test Program. I wrote all the code for this test and it
> ran on a Megatest @8000 test system.
>

Also all of the competitors and second sources that made 8085s had the
added instructions.? The are indeed handy too.

Allison

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb  9 11:23:51 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 09:23:51 -0800
Subject: Intel 8085 - interview?
In-Reply-To: <63a99aec-cb07-63d0-92e9-0d9d6ea03bf3@gmail.com>
References: <CAFrGgTSwPARJ4EsSM6bKbmbSt-1LrH9LbJC5L5K3-OOJTyaXgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c0bc705c-198b-9575-59ea-47c058d68ce4@sydex.com>
 <63a99aec-cb07-63d0-92e9-0d9d6ea03bf3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00576cb7-cf4b-60bf-4f6a-3ff39b277fdd@sydex.com>

On 02/09/2018 05:22 AM, allison via cctalk wrote:

> Also all of the competitors and second sources that made 8085s had the
> added instructions.? The are indeed handy too.

Calmos (then later Tundra) Semiconductor actually documents them in
detail in their CA80C85 datasheet, but those were from the early 1980s.
What was interesting was that even through we were working pretty
tightly with Intel in 1976, not a word of the added instructions was
uttered by our sales guy, "Fast Eddie", who usually was pretty well
informed about the goings on over in Santa Clara.   Bill Davidow was on
our BOD as well.

That's a shame; we could have used those instructions too.

--Chuck


From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb  9 11:25:48 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 09:25:48 -0800
Subject: Maxtor full-height 5.25" drives of death
In-Reply-To: <d24cf626-0a7c-111f-26bb-a76a57599dda@gmail.com>
References: <CAHQ+QWBQ9eojB4kU7qC6gGs0Yj3rX5cCFcrM_U_sgLhT49VrFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <007501d3a10f$7c1998b0$744cca10$@computer.org>
 <3B877925-5F0C-4669-A7DC-12902A42181D@gmail.com>
 <20d26f92-5458-5eb2-5838-f3c622ffeec6@bitsavers.org>
 <07a35cfc-3e95-b9d2-ec4b-4ef11fb987ca@sydex.com>
 <EDE33003-0109-4787-993D-5D68ED6C20A9@gmail.com>
 <a9a657d6-8814-cdd0-158a-3fbc5a12919f@bitsavers.org>
 <CAM2UOwLT1JPyLL-56TPCggk1Qpw6x-nHTpcyDAwd7qORTVWJkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1e8cb92f-dd70-878c-c26d-e7052576b087@sydex.com>
 <d24cf626-0a7c-111f-26bb-a76a57599dda@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <85861706-de81-1340-9ea6-08ec41616061@sydex.com>

On 02/09/2018 05:20 AM, allison via cctalk wrote:

> At the other extreme I have over a dozen Quantum D540s (RD52 31mb full
> height)
> that are really old and getting older and still work without issues.?
> Some of those
> have sat on the shelf for a decade and work fine when I need one.

I've still got a Q540 mounted on its side in a MAD Intelligent Systems
case--I fired it up about a week ago and it's still working just fine.

--Chuck


From js at cimmeri.com  Fri Feb  9 12:05:35 2018
From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2018 13:05:35 -0500
Subject: Maxtor full-height 5.25" drives of death
In-Reply-To: <85861706-de81-1340-9ea6-08ec41616061@sydex.com>
References: <CAHQ+QWBQ9eojB4kU7qC6gGs0Yj3rX5cCFcrM_U_sgLhT49VrFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <007501d3a10f$7c1998b0$744cca10$@computer.org>
 <3B877925-5F0C-4669-A7DC-12902A42181D@gmail.com>
 <20d26f92-5458-5eb2-5838-f3c622ffeec6@bitsavers.org>
 <07a35cfc-3e95-b9d2-ec4b-4ef11fb987ca@sydex.com>
 <EDE33003-0109-4787-993D-5D68ED6C20A9@gmail.com>
 <a9a657d6-8814-cdd0-158a-3fbc5a12919f@bitsavers.org>
 <CAM2UOwLT1JPyLL-56TPCggk1Qpw6x-nHTpcyDAwd7qORTVWJkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1e8cb92f-dd70-878c-c26d-e7052576b087@sydex.com>
 <d24cf626-0a7c-111f-26bb-a76a57599dda@gmail.com>
 <85861706-de81-1340-9ea6-08ec41616061@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <5A7DE2EF.60904@cimmeri.com>



On 2/9/2018 12:25 PM, Chuck Guzis via 
cctalk wrote:
> On 02/09/2018 05:20 AM, allison via cctalk wrote:
>
>> At the other extreme I have over a dozen Quantum D540s (RD52 31mb full
>> height)
>> that are really old and getting older and still work without issues. 
>> Some of those
>> have sat on the shelf for a decade and work fine when I need one.
> I've still got a Q540 mounted on its side in a MAD Intelligent Systems
> case--I fired it up about a week ago and it's still working just fine.
>
> --Chuck


A tangential question out of curiosity: 
who here has 5.25" MFM drives they're 
extremely surprised are still working, 
and which model(s)?

I'll start.  I've quite a few MFM 
drives, but the ones that really 
surprise me are (2) Seagate ST-506, and 
(2) IMI CM-5412.   My surprise is b/c 
these are amongst the earliest of models.

I've performed *some* work on all these 
drives, such as cleaning and caps 
reforming, but haven't yet discovered a 
way to lube motors & bearings.   I think 
lube issues will spell their ultimate 
demise.

- John


From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Fri Feb  9 12:04:21 2018
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 12:04:21 -0600
Subject: power cord end
Message-ID: <CAA3rs23JjPVqYZX0CoixyCRoz3usb2CKUCfTBSD5QgkHTuEtuw@mail.gmail.com>

anyone know of a power cord designation simlar to nema 13 but smaller its
used on a roland R8 has round pins has a power brick between it and te ain
power plug

https://electricdenimstudios.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Roland-R8-MKII-Vintage-Drum-Machine-Human-Rhythm-Composer-02.jpg
http://www.vintagesynth.com/sites/default/files/2017-05/roland_r8mkii_rear_lg.jpg

From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri Feb  9 12:29:02 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 10:29:02 -0800
Subject: Intel 8085 - interview?
In-Reply-To: <00576cb7-cf4b-60bf-4f6a-3ff39b277fdd@sydex.com>
References: <CAFrGgTSwPARJ4EsSM6bKbmbSt-1LrH9LbJC5L5K3-OOJTyaXgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c0bc705c-198b-9575-59ea-47c058d68ce4@sydex.com>
 <63a99aec-cb07-63d0-92e9-0d9d6ea03bf3@gmail.com>
 <00576cb7-cf4b-60bf-4f6a-3ff39b277fdd@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <a212a5c5-f41d-6894-4474-42cff6cbae70@bitsavers.org>



On 2/9/18 9:23 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

> Calmos (then later Tundra) Semiconductor actually documents them in
> detail in their CA80C85 datasheet, but those were from the early 1980s.


the info is still out there
http://saxelec.com/doc/T8000.pdf



From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri Feb  9 12:34:50 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 10:34:50 -0800
Subject: Maxtor full-height 5.25" drives of death
In-Reply-To: <5A7DE2EF.60904@cimmeri.com>
References: <CAHQ+QWBQ9eojB4kU7qC6gGs0Yj3rX5cCFcrM_U_sgLhT49VrFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <007501d3a10f$7c1998b0$744cca10$@computer.org>
 <3B877925-5F0C-4669-A7DC-12902A42181D@gmail.com>
 <20d26f92-5458-5eb2-5838-f3c622ffeec6@bitsavers.org>
 <07a35cfc-3e95-b9d2-ec4b-4ef11fb987ca@sydex.com>
 <EDE33003-0109-4787-993D-5D68ED6C20A9@gmail.com>
 <a9a657d6-8814-cdd0-158a-3fbc5a12919f@bitsavers.org>
 <CAM2UOwLT1JPyLL-56TPCggk1Qpw6x-nHTpcyDAwd7qORTVWJkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1e8cb92f-dd70-878c-c26d-e7052576b087@sydex.com>
 <d24cf626-0a7c-111f-26bb-a76a57599dda@gmail.com>
 <85861706-de81-1340-9ea6-08ec41616061@sydex.com> <5A7DE2EF.60904@cimmeri.com>
Message-ID: <39540ed8-3897-f2da-9207-1bc29eb13ed1@bitsavers.org>



On 2/9/18 10:05 AM, js--- via cctalk wrote:

> A tangential question out of curiosity: who here has 5.25" MFM drives they're extremely surprised are still working, and
> which model(s)?

Looking around after purging about 100 dead drives a few months ago..

CDC Wrens seem to be holding up OK, IMI 5012 and 5018 and ST-412s




From imp at bsdimp.com  Fri Feb  9 12:57:33 2018
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 11:57:33 -0700
Subject: Intel 8085 - interview?
In-Reply-To: <a212a5c5-f41d-6894-4474-42cff6cbae70@bitsavers.org>
References: <CAFrGgTSwPARJ4EsSM6bKbmbSt-1LrH9LbJC5L5K3-OOJTyaXgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c0bc705c-198b-9575-59ea-47c058d68ce4@sydex.com>
 <63a99aec-cb07-63d0-92e9-0d9d6ea03bf3@gmail.com>
 <00576cb7-cf4b-60bf-4f6a-3ff39b277fdd@sydex.com>
 <a212a5c5-f41d-6894-4474-42cff6cbae70@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfouPZhyi35CHwboCcyEps3HrTUxE8c6E0VvtkjbAGiPvA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 11:29 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org
> wrote:

>
>
> On 2/9/18 9:23 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>
> > Calmos (then later Tundra) Semiconductor actually documents them in
> > detail in their CA80C85 datasheet, but those were from the early 1980s.
>
>
> the info is still out there
> http://saxelec.com/doc/T8000.pdf


For those that don't want to read through the entire datasheet,
https://electronicerror.blogspot.com/2007/08/undocumented-flags-and-instructions.html
has a good summary.

Warner

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri Feb  9 13:00:18 2018
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Fri,  9 Feb 2018 14:00:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.
Message-ID: <20180209190018.268A918C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Terry Stewart

    > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2018-02-05-USB-in-MS-DOS-and-Win98.htm

    > Hopefully the article will be useful to others who might want to do
    > this.

Hi, can I appeal to you (and everyone else who writes up these kinds of
notes) to put this stuff on the Computer History wiki?

When things like this get placed in the CCTalk archives (for which there is
no search system other than Google), or on people's personal sites (ditto) -
and I have in the past BTDT for both of these, myself - it's probably going
to be hard to find them amidst all the other dross that a Google search
typically produces, a couple of years down the road.

With the CHWiki, we stand a chance of filtering out the useful information
and making available, and _organizing_ all this stuff so that it's possible
to find relevant information when it's needed...

And no, I don't have time to upload all this stuff myself - I have too much
other stuff I'm trying to work on! :-)

So, please - let's get organized!

	Noel

From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com  Fri Feb  9 13:26:31 2018
From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 19:26:31 +0000
Subject: DECwriterIV/LA100s and large DEC monitors available, Cambs UK
Message-ID: <EDC5A1E6-69F2-44BA-AFF0-3F5F8A43B0B3@gmail.com>

Hi folks,

Clearing out some of the larger DEC pieces I have, does anyone want these before I offer them to the Centre For Computing History?  They?d need to be collected from Cambridgeshire, or I can deliver them if the distance is reasonable. I kind of need the space quickly too. 

Usual caveat as working-when-last-powered-up :)

3x LA100-CA with keyboards
VRT19 with video cable, last powered up in Dec 2014
VR319 mono VXT monitor 
VR261 mono workstation monitor
VXT1200
VXT1000
Alpha 3000-400, maybe 2 if I can find the 2nd one.

Cheers,

?
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs - Celebrating Computing History from 1972 onwards
w: binarydinosaurs.co.uk <http://binarydinosaurs.co.uk/> t: @binarydinosaurs
f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs


From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb  9 13:43:36 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 11:43:36 -0800
Subject: Intel 8085 - interview?
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfouPZhyi35CHwboCcyEps3HrTUxE8c6E0VvtkjbAGiPvA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFrGgTSwPARJ4EsSM6bKbmbSt-1LrH9LbJC5L5K3-OOJTyaXgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c0bc705c-198b-9575-59ea-47c058d68ce4@sydex.com>
 <63a99aec-cb07-63d0-92e9-0d9d6ea03bf3@gmail.com>
 <00576cb7-cf4b-60bf-4f6a-3ff39b277fdd@sydex.com>
 <a212a5c5-f41d-6894-4474-42cff6cbae70@bitsavers.org>
 <CANCZdfouPZhyi35CHwboCcyEps3HrTUxE8c6E0VvtkjbAGiPvA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <77356133-7200-0fc9-2567-58f4efa6c62e@sydex.com>

On 02/09/2018 10:57 AM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:

> For those that don't want to read through the entire datasheet,
> https://electronicerror.blogspot.com/2007/08/undocumented-flags-and-instructions.html
> has a good summary.

RIM and SIM were always documented for the 8085.   Not doing so would
have made it difficult to use the added features, such as "half" and
TRAP interrupts, in addition to bit-bang serial I/O.

In the Calmos document cited by Al, the discussion of added flags and
instructions begins on PDF page 39 and is much clearer.

--Chuck


From spacewar at gmail.com  Fri Feb  9 13:59:03 2018
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 12:59:03 -0700
Subject: Intel 8085 - interview?
In-Reply-To: <c0bc705c-198b-9575-59ea-47c058d68ce4@sydex.com>
References: <CAFrGgTSwPARJ4EsSM6bKbmbSt-1LrH9LbJC5L5K3-OOJTyaXgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c0bc705c-198b-9575-59ea-47c058d68ce4@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTQNh7Vhbw6BmQgiQ5UdT-2THEMdZLMrGXnfzzz9vP3CrQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 9:56 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 02/08/2018 07:18 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote:
> > At some point I read an article or a transcript of an interview with an
> > Intel employee (or former employee) who had been involved with the design
> > of the 8085, describing how he had specified additional instructions over
> > those of the 8080, and they had been implemented in the silicon, but then
> > the decision was made to not document any of the new instructions other
> > than RIM and SIM.
> >
> > I no longer recall which Intel employee that was, and can't find the
> > article or interview. Does anyone else remember that, and perhaps have a
> > copy?
>
> Do you mean Cort Allen?   His email a couple of years ago was:
>
> manofquest at aol.com
>

That's not the interview I was thinking of, but it's definitely interesting!

From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri Feb  9 14:05:45 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 12:05:45 -0800
Subject: HP 9816 CP/M-68K
Message-ID: <06b4bfee-c563-16c2-eb8f-6a32dec43877@bitsavers.org>

floppies recovered and uploaded to http://bitsavers.org/bits/HP/HP_9000/cpm-68k

I'm pretty sure this will only work in a 9121 single-sided drive but I'll be trying
to boot it soon



From allisonportable at gmail.com  Fri Feb  9 14:14:12 2018
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 15:14:12 -0500
Subject: Maxtor full-height 5.25" drives of death
In-Reply-To: <5A7DE2EF.60904@cimmeri.com>
References: <CAHQ+QWBQ9eojB4kU7qC6gGs0Yj3rX5cCFcrM_U_sgLhT49VrFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <007501d3a10f$7c1998b0$744cca10$@computer.org>
 <3B877925-5F0C-4669-A7DC-12902A42181D@gmail.com>
 <20d26f92-5458-5eb2-5838-f3c622ffeec6@bitsavers.org>
 <07a35cfc-3e95-b9d2-ec4b-4ef11fb987ca@sydex.com>
 <EDE33003-0109-4787-993D-5D68ED6C20A9@gmail.com>
 <a9a657d6-8814-cdd0-158a-3fbc5a12919f@bitsavers.org>
 <CAM2UOwLT1JPyLL-56TPCggk1Qpw6x-nHTpcyDAwd7qORTVWJkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1e8cb92f-dd70-878c-c26d-e7052576b087@sydex.com>
 <d24cf626-0a7c-111f-26bb-a76a57599dda@gmail.com>
 <85861706-de81-1340-9ea6-08ec41616061@sydex.com> <5A7DE2EF.60904@cimmeri.com>
Message-ID: <6cf25079-33a6-9453-f6ea-69b36a687109@gmail.com>

On 02/09/2018 01:05 PM, js--- via cctalk wrote:
>
>
> On 2/9/2018 12:25 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>> On 02/09/2018 05:20 AM, allison via cctalk wrote:
>>
>>> At the other extreme I have over a dozen Quantum D540s (RD52 31mb full
>>> height)
>>> that are really old and getting older and still work without issues.
>>> Some of those
>>> have sat on the shelf for a decade and work fine when I need one.
>> I've still got a Q540 mounted on its side in a MAD Intelligent Systems
>> case--I fired it up about a week ago and it's still working just fine.
>>
>> --Chuck
>
>
> A tangential question out of curiosity: who here has 5.25" MFM drives
> they're extremely surprised are still working, and which model(s)?

Working Drive some of which I bought new...

These are all MFM:
?2 st506? 1 new in 1981, last tested 1 year ago and still has the base
install of CP/M 2.2.
??? It was my first hard disk in my Northstar Horizon S100 crate and
still visits there.
? ? Its hard to imagine when 5MB seemed like a huge unfillable space.
2 St412? both gotten used (one was RD51) both work but one has stiction
so startup
?? the first time in a while requires manual twist of the drive(inertia).
?3 ST225 one was former RD31 all work though they have been formatted
for RQDX2,
??? RQDX3 and WD1003 at different times.
? 1 ST250, out of a PC rescue back in the early 90s, still hasn't died.
14 Q540s some as old as 1985 all work no failures yet.? The first one I
have was "tossed"
? ? ? literally as bad by field circus (dec internal in 1986) only to
find the RQDX2 had
????? croaked.? By tossed I mean dropped from 3Ft into a steel trash
can.? Reformatted
????? (high level using XXDP) for RQDX2 its served me since.? Yes, I
pick trash.
?3? RD53 aka 1325s ll had spindown from head sticking to bumper, opened
and fixed
??? with the oldest picked up used in 1991.
?1 CDC (wren) 3.5" MFM picked up used in '93 and paired with a Xybec
controller in my
??? Micromint SBC180.

SCSI group:
In the SCSI class I have a large collection of PC and VAX drives from
RZ22 though RZ56s
and those that worked when I got them still do over 20 years later.?
This is a mix of 3.5
and 5inch full height.

Of those from PCs the Baracuda 1gb drives? have proven bullet proof.? I
have 4 that
came from system upgrades (2001) that have at least 2 years 24/7 when I
got them.
Note the replacement Maxtor drives (9gb) tended to fail after about 13
months
(humm pattern, yes?).

One noteable SCSI drive is a 3.5" Fugitsu SCSI 45MB given to me for a
AMPROLB+
still running more than 20 years and used just yesterday to assemble
some 8085 code.

IDE:
Large selection of pulls all tested good.? Noteables were the 420mb WD,
4.3GB WD and
St3660A.? Oddballs like a 5.25 thin bigfoot (slowest and reputed to be
the worst for failure)
in linux 486box thats still running Slackware 1.2.

In all cases the drive mentioned are not less than 15 years old most
greater than
25 and a few pushing more than 35 years.

The grand daddy of them all is the RL02 salvaged in 1983 and still
running along
with two packs from then.? Its life was 9 years of Monday through Friday
power on
and now intermittent about 5 times a month since 1994.? Still booting a
PDP-11.


Allison


From allisonportable at gmail.com  Fri Feb  9 14:26:53 2018
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 15:26:53 -0500
Subject: Intel 8085 - interview?
In-Reply-To: <00576cb7-cf4b-60bf-4f6a-3ff39b277fdd@sydex.com>
References: <CAFrGgTSwPARJ4EsSM6bKbmbSt-1LrH9LbJC5L5K3-OOJTyaXgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c0bc705c-198b-9575-59ea-47c058d68ce4@sydex.com>
 <63a99aec-cb07-63d0-92e9-0d9d6ea03bf3@gmail.com>
 <00576cb7-cf4b-60bf-4f6a-3ff39b277fdd@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <ec1fa816-a8b4-1678-fd5e-f005060dfac7@gmail.com>

On 02/09/2018 12:23 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> On 02/09/2018 05:22 AM, allison via cctalk wrote:
>
>> Also all of the competitors and second sources that made 8085s had the
>> added instructions.? The are indeed handy too.
> Calmos (then later Tundra) Semiconductor actually documents them in
> detail in their CA80C85 datasheet, but those were from the early 1980s.
> What was interesting was that even through we were working pretty
> tightly with Intel in 1976, not a word of the added instructions was
> uttered by our sales guy, "Fast Eddie", who usually was pretty well
> informed about the goings on over in Santa Clara.   Bill Davidow was on
> our BOD as well.
>
> That's a shame; we could have used those instructions too.
>
> --Chuck
>
Interesting story the NEC 8085A was a reverse engineer and was faithful to
the then (pre 1980) hidden instructions.? NEC learned hard form the 8080
as it was not compatible (they belived the datasheet) and would lead to the
8080AFC (A version, fully compatable).

If anyone didn't that's a first as every part I could get did at least
after 1978.

I new of the instruction back in 78-79 when I got a Netronics Explorer85
(8085 powered with a short s100 bus).? I bought and built it to play with
8085 and the magic instructions.

IBM PC early also did that... other vendors of the 8088 didn't work in the
64K and early 256K IBM PCs due to a slight timing variation that
reputedly intel helped design in.? One gate fixed it but it was undocumented
thing you could getaway with only with Intel 8088s.

The industry was loaded with that the 6502 series also had that going on
as well as the 6809 and others.


Allison

From phb.hfx at gmail.com  Fri Feb  9 14:37:54 2018
From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 16:37:54 -0400
Subject: HP 9816 CP/M-68K
In-Reply-To: <06b4bfee-c563-16c2-eb8f-6a32dec43877@bitsavers.org>
References: <06b4bfee-c563-16c2-eb8f-6a32dec43877@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <d91a9531-c014-f5d1-f775-9deb90df33d2@gmail.com>



On 2018-02-09 4:05 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> floppies recovered and uploaded to http://bitsavers.org/bits/HP/HP_9000/cpm-68k
>
> I'm pretty sure this will only work in a 9121 single-sided drive but I'll be trying
> to boot it soon
>
>
I would suspect the issue is that it only support Amigo devices so it 
may also work with 9895 or 82901/2? like other early 68K 9800 software 
like HPL, but yeah the boot disk is would seem to be for a 9121 or 
possibly one of the 5.25 drive they quite conveniently have the same 
number of tracks per disk.

Paul.

From spc at conman.org  Fri Feb  9 15:18:10 2018
From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 16:18:10 -0500
Subject: Intel 8085 - interview?
In-Reply-To: <ec1fa816-a8b4-1678-fd5e-f005060dfac7@gmail.com>
References: <CAFrGgTSwPARJ4EsSM6bKbmbSt-1LrH9LbJC5L5K3-OOJTyaXgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c0bc705c-198b-9575-59ea-47c058d68ce4@sydex.com>
 <63a99aec-cb07-63d0-92e9-0d9d6ea03bf3@gmail.com>
 <00576cb7-cf4b-60bf-4f6a-3ff39b277fdd@sydex.com>
 <ec1fa816-a8b4-1678-fd5e-f005060dfac7@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20180209211810.GB19673@brevard.conman.org>

It was thus said that the Great allison via cctalk once stated:
> 
> The industry was loaded with that the 6502 series also had that going on
> as well as the 6809 and others.

  Do you have any information about undocumented opcodes for the 6809?  

  -spc

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb  9 15:18:41 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 13:18:41 -0800
Subject: Maxtor full-height 5.25" drives of death
In-Reply-To: <6cf25079-33a6-9453-f6ea-69b36a687109@gmail.com>
References: <CAHQ+QWBQ9eojB4kU7qC6gGs0Yj3rX5cCFcrM_U_sgLhT49VrFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <007501d3a10f$7c1998b0$744cca10$@computer.org>
 <3B877925-5F0C-4669-A7DC-12902A42181D@gmail.com>
 <20d26f92-5458-5eb2-5838-f3c622ffeec6@bitsavers.org>
 <07a35cfc-3e95-b9d2-ec4b-4ef11fb987ca@sydex.com>
 <EDE33003-0109-4787-993D-5D68ED6C20A9@gmail.com>
 <a9a657d6-8814-cdd0-158a-3fbc5a12919f@bitsavers.org>
 <CAM2UOwLT1JPyLL-56TPCggk1Qpw6x-nHTpcyDAwd7qORTVWJkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1e8cb92f-dd70-878c-c26d-e7052576b087@sydex.com>
 <d24cf626-0a7c-111f-26bb-a76a57599dda@gmail.com>
 <85861706-de81-1340-9ea6-08ec41616061@sydex.com> <5A7DE2EF.60904@cimmeri.com>
 <6cf25079-33a6-9453-f6ea-69b36a687109@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4e87bcc8-3c2f-bfb5-42d7-f8e035ed37ad@sydex.com>

On 02/09/2018 12:14 PM, allison via cctalk wrote:
> 
> The grand daddy of them all is the RL02 salvaged in 1983 and still 
> running along with two packs from then.  Its life was 9 years of
> Monday through Friday power on and now intermittent about 5 times a
> month since 1994.  Still booting a PDP-11.


I've still got an SA4000 drive here.  I haven't fired it up in donkey's
years, but it would be interesting to see if it still worked.

--Chuck

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri Feb  9 15:18:43 2018
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 13:18:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Maxtor full-height 5.25" drives of death
In-Reply-To: <5A7DE2EF.60904@cimmeri.com>
References: <CAHQ+QWBQ9eojB4kU7qC6gGs0Yj3rX5cCFcrM_U_sgLhT49VrFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <007501d3a10f$7c1998b0$744cca10$@computer.org>
 <3B877925-5F0C-4669-A7DC-12902A42181D@gmail.com>
 <20d26f92-5458-5eb2-5838-f3c622ffeec6@bitsavers.org>
 <07a35cfc-3e95-b9d2-ec4b-4ef11fb987ca@sydex.com>
 <EDE33003-0109-4787-993D-5D68ED6C20A9@gmail.com>
 <a9a657d6-8814-cdd0-158a-3fbc5a12919f@bitsavers.org>
 <CAM2UOwLT1JPyLL-56TPCggk1Qpw6x-nHTpcyDAwd7qORTVWJkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1e8cb92f-dd70-878c-c26d-e7052576b087@sydex.com>
 <d24cf626-0a7c-111f-26bb-a76a57599dda@gmail.com>
 <85861706-de81-1340-9ea6-08ec41616061@sydex.com> <5A7DE2EF.60904@cimmeri.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802091311190.22595@shell.lmi.net>

On Fri, 9 Feb 2018, js--- via cctalk wrote:
> A tangential question out of curiosity: who here has 5.25" MFM drives 
> they're extremely surprised are still working, and which model(s)?
> I'll start.  I've quite a few MFM drives, but the ones that really surprise 
> me are (2) Seagate ST-506, and (2) IMI CM-5412.   My surprise is b/c these 
> are amongst the earliest of models.

One factor may be that the earliest models were new attempts, and tended 
to be very carefully engineered, and often conservatively, due to lack of 
prior experience.  On the later drives, they had "learned" and "realized" 
some of the corners that they could cut.  "On analysis of failed drives 
from various problems, it is clear that none of the failed drives were 
even halfway through the life of the lubricants.  Therefore, cheaper 
lubricants and smaller quantities with half the expected life would still 
be adequate to outlast, on average, the other components."?

> I've performed *some* work on all these drives, such as cleaning and caps 
> reforming, but haven't yet discovered a way to lube motors & bearings.   I 
> think lube issues will spell their ultimate demise.

One of the first corners to cut, once analysis of failed units from other 
causes shows that it is outlasting the rest of the unit.

In addition, of course, some lubricants can deteriorate, whereas many 
other components may have no significant impact from time.  Lubricants can 
fail from contaminants that would not affect most other components.


From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb  9 15:24:11 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 13:24:11 -0800
Subject: Intel 8085 - interview?
In-Reply-To: <ec1fa816-a8b4-1678-fd5e-f005060dfac7@gmail.com>
References: <CAFrGgTSwPARJ4EsSM6bKbmbSt-1LrH9LbJC5L5K3-OOJTyaXgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c0bc705c-198b-9575-59ea-47c058d68ce4@sydex.com>
 <63a99aec-cb07-63d0-92e9-0d9d6ea03bf3@gmail.com>
 <00576cb7-cf4b-60bf-4f6a-3ff39b277fdd@sydex.com>
 <ec1fa816-a8b4-1678-fd5e-f005060dfac7@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <de156e52-7da3-e1c9-8281-3084b4d56e89@sydex.com>

On 02/09/2018 12:26 PM, allison via cctalk wrote:

> IBM PC early also did that... other vendors of the 8088 didn't work
> in the 64K and early 256K IBM PCs due to a slight timing variation
> that reputedly intel helped design in.  One gate fixed it but it was
> undocumented thing you could getaway with only with Intel 8088s.

Hmm, must have been *very* early PCs, as mine had an AMD 8088 in it--but
wasn't AMD a licensee of the Intel part?   But then, so was NEC.

I think IMSAI used the "different" NEC 8080s in their floppy controller,
as they were inexpensive (because of the incompatibility) and in the
particular application, it didn't matter.

I do recall very early 8085s having a "reset" bug, necessitating some
external glue, but it's been too long for me to remember the details.

--Chuck






From allisonportable at gmail.com  Fri Feb  9 15:59:23 2018
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 16:59:23 -0500
Subject: Intel 8085 - interview?
In-Reply-To: <20180209211810.GB19673@brevard.conman.org>
References: <CAFrGgTSwPARJ4EsSM6bKbmbSt-1LrH9LbJC5L5K3-OOJTyaXgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c0bc705c-198b-9575-59ea-47c058d68ce4@sydex.com>
 <63a99aec-cb07-63d0-92e9-0d9d6ea03bf3@gmail.com>
 <00576cb7-cf4b-60bf-4f6a-3ff39b277fdd@sydex.com>
 <ec1fa816-a8b4-1678-fd5e-f005060dfac7@gmail.com>
 <20180209211810.GB19673@brevard.conman.org>
Message-ID: <204d63b8-ff29-436f-1eff-d7c6afac4503@gmail.com>

On 02/09/2018 04:18 PM, Sean Conner wrote:
> It was thus said that the Great allison via cctalk once stated:
>> The industry was loaded with that the 6502 series also had that going on
>> as well as the 6809 and others.
>   Do you have any information about undocumented opcodes for the 6809?  
>
>   -spc
Not a processor I use much bt there is a version of the 6809 that has
additional modes.
Thats the Hitachi 63b09 wich is 6809E compatable save for it has an
extended
mode and more registers.

I use that as an example of compatibility or extensions another more
familiar
is the NEC V20 fits in the 8088 socket but has enhanced performance and
native
8080 emulation mode.

Allison

From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us  Fri Feb  9 16:19:38 2018
From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 17:19:38 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Maxtor full-height 5.25" drives of death
In-Reply-To: <5A7DE2EF.60904@cimmeri.com>
References: <CAHQ+QWBQ9eojB4kU7qC6gGs0Yj3rX5cCFcrM_U_sgLhT49VrFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <007501d3a10f$7c1998b0$744cca10$@computer.org>
 <3B877925-5F0C-4669-A7DC-12902A42181D@gmail.com>
 <20d26f92-5458-5eb2-5838-f3c622ffeec6@bitsavers.org>
 <07a35cfc-3e95-b9d2-ec4b-4ef11fb987ca@sydex.com>
 <EDE33003-0109-4787-993D-5D68ED6C20A9@gmail.com>
 <a9a657d6-8814-cdd0-158a-3fbc5a12919f@bitsavers.org>
 <CAM2UOwLT1JPyLL-56TPCggk1Qpw6x-nHTpcyDAwd7qORTVWJkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1e8cb92f-dd70-878c-c26d-e7052576b087@sydex.com>
 <d24cf626-0a7c-111f-26bb-a76a57599dda@gmail.com>
 <85861706-de81-1340-9ea6-08ec41616061@sydex.com> <5A7DE2EF.60904@cimmeri.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.20.1802091718170.10124@cpumagic.137clearview.org>

On Fri, 9 Feb 2018, js--- via cctalk wrote:
>
> A tangential question out of curiosity: who here has 5.25" MFM drives they're 
> extremely surprised are still working, and which model(s)?
>
> I'll start.  I've quite a few MFM drives, but the ones that really surprise 
> me are (2) Seagate ST-506, and (2) IMI CM-5412.   My surprise is b/c these 
> are amongst the earliest of models.

    At the risk of jinxing my drives, I have a Tandy 6000HD with two 
operational Tandon TM503 drives.  The only thing done was to reformat.


Mike Loewen				mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology				http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/

From healyzh at avanthar.com  Fri Feb  9 16:22:33 2018
From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 14:22:33 -0800
Subject: DECwriterIV/LA100s and large DEC monitors available, Cambs UK
In-Reply-To: <EDC5A1E6-69F2-44BA-AFF0-3F5F8A43B0B3@gmail.com>
References: <EDC5A1E6-69F2-44BA-AFF0-3F5F8A43B0B3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0DBF5AAA-BD7D-4BE1-B25A-7BFD3A9E9E01@avanthar.com>


> On Feb 9, 2018, at 11:26 AM, Adrian Graham via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> LA100-CA 

I?m really glad you?re on the right side of the Pond!  I really don?t have the space to get tempted by something like this! :-)

Zane




From imp at bsdimp.com  Fri Feb  9 16:38:27 2018
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 15:38:27 -0700
Subject: DECwriterIV/LA100s and large DEC monitors available, Cambs UK
In-Reply-To: <0DBF5AAA-BD7D-4BE1-B25A-7BFD3A9E9E01@avanthar.com>
References: <EDC5A1E6-69F2-44BA-AFF0-3F5F8A43B0B3@gmail.com>
 <0DBF5AAA-BD7D-4BE1-B25A-7BFD3A9E9E01@avanthar.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfozTC5CXr5d6tv5cGwZoKy9XDxRx9-sbLY2xsmOJUJs-w@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 3:22 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org
> wrote:

>
> > On Feb 9, 2018, at 11:26 AM, Adrian Graham via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > LA100-CA
>
> I?m really glad you?re on the right side of the Pond!  I really don?t have
> the space to get tempted by something like this! :-)
>

I believe that I have one w/o keyboard that is surplus to my needs :) And
I'm on the left side of the pond :)

Warner

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb  9 16:41:11 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 14:41:11 -0800
Subject: Intel 8085 - interview?
In-Reply-To: <204d63b8-ff29-436f-1eff-d7c6afac4503@gmail.com>
References: <CAFrGgTSwPARJ4EsSM6bKbmbSt-1LrH9LbJC5L5K3-OOJTyaXgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c0bc705c-198b-9575-59ea-47c058d68ce4@sydex.com>
 <63a99aec-cb07-63d0-92e9-0d9d6ea03bf3@gmail.com>
 <00576cb7-cf4b-60bf-4f6a-3ff39b277fdd@sydex.com>
 <ec1fa816-a8b4-1678-fd5e-f005060dfac7@gmail.com>
 <20180209211810.GB19673@brevard.conman.org>
 <204d63b8-ff29-436f-1eff-d7c6afac4503@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2dc68cc9-a545-0caf-c019-aac86fa08e78@sydex.com>

On 02/09/2018 01:59 PM, allison via cctalk wrote:

> I use that as an example of compatibility or extensions another more 
> familiar is the NEC V20 fits in the 8088 socket but has enhanced
> performance and native 8080 emulation mode.
The V-series may be a good example of why Intel didn't want to publicize
the added 8085 instructions.

Aside from 8080 emulation, the V-series also has some x86 "orphan"
instructions, such as the BCD string instructions that were never
carried over into any other x86 design.

It reminds me a bit of the 386 bit-string instructions that were
publicized early on, but never implemented AFAIK in any 80386.

--Chuck


From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Fri Feb  9 16:47:42 2018
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 15:47:42 -0700
Subject: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.
In-Reply-To: <20180209190018.268A918C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20180209190018.268A918C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <cc280006-d656-bf01-e7ff-a893d85f1bdd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

Sorry if this comes across wrong.  I think I'm fighting a meat space 
bug.  As such my filters are a little less functional than normal.

On 02/09/2018 12:00 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
> Hi, can I appeal to you (and everyone else who writes up these kinds of 
> notes) to put this stuff on the Computer History wiki?

You can appeal to me.  But I don't think I'm likely to listen.

> And no, I don't have time to upload all this stuff myself - I have too 
> much other stuff I'm trying to work on!

This is the primary reason as to why your appeal falls short for me.  (I 
have no idea about others.)

When I write things for my personal site, I want them first and foremost 
to be on my personal site.  I don't really care if they are copied 
elsewhere.  I give people permission to copy, just with credit.

Since I'm going to write for my site first, and I'm having to make time 
to do so, I'm not likely to make additional time to put the content 
elsewhere.

> So, please - let's get organized!

I believe that your goal is laudable and should be encouraged.  It's 
just that the unfriendly reality is that time and motivation is 
diametrically opposed to what you're asking.  I think it's more 
important to get things recorded somewhere, even if it's not the ideal 
location, than it is to delay getting them recorded elsewhere, if ever.

Again, your appeal is heard, understood, and sadly dismissed.  At least 
for my current situation.

I'm replying in an attempt to provide a counter point for a discussion 
of reality.  So please don't take this as an attack on you, or your 
laudable appeal.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From spacewar at gmail.com  Fri Feb  9 16:53:54 2018
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 15:53:54 -0700
Subject: Intel 8085 - interview?
In-Reply-To: <2dc68cc9-a545-0caf-c019-aac86fa08e78@sydex.com>
References: <CAFrGgTSwPARJ4EsSM6bKbmbSt-1LrH9LbJC5L5K3-OOJTyaXgg@mail.gmail.com>
 <c0bc705c-198b-9575-59ea-47c058d68ce4@sydex.com>
 <63a99aec-cb07-63d0-92e9-0d9d6ea03bf3@gmail.com>
 <00576cb7-cf4b-60bf-4f6a-3ff39b277fdd@sydex.com>
 <ec1fa816-a8b4-1678-fd5e-f005060dfac7@gmail.com>
 <20180209211810.GB19673@brevard.conman.org>
 <204d63b8-ff29-436f-1eff-d7c6afac4503@gmail.com>
 <2dc68cc9-a545-0caf-c019-aac86fa08e78@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTQXWVgKKCo0L4xEm4sBqMtSO7vPtKmqiR0axO+usN1q5g@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 3:41 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> The V-series may be a good example of why Intel didn't want to publicize
> the added 8085 instructions.
>

Maybe. What I'd heard from multiple sources was that they only wanted the
8085 to replace the 8080, so it was supposed to be "better" in terms of
being a lower-cost 8080 replacement, needing fewer support chips (except an
address latch, but that's cheaper than an 8228/8238), but they didn't want
it to have a better instruction set that might put it into sockets that
might otherwise get filled with an 8086/8088.

From wayne.smith at charter.net  Fri Feb  9 18:17:57 2018
From: wayne.smith at charter.net (wayne.smith at charter.net)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2018 17:17:57 -0700
Subject: who is in this picture? (VCF 199x)
Message-ID: <8oHx1x00e17Lcik01oHxyt@charter.net>

 

	Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 04:21:40 -0600 

	From: Michael Lee  

	To: cctech at classiccmp.org [2] 

	Subject: Re: who is in this picture? (VCF 199x) 

	Message-ID:  

	Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed 

	***Sorry to be picking up this thread so late - I'm behind in my
reading - but I have a bunch of pictures that I took at this show
here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/AysFbl8Dhv4qn23V2

	I believe that's Pavl Zachary... 

	Photo from 2004 VCF West 7: 

	https://www.flickr.com/photos/geekmuseum/2908317855 [4] 

	On 1/30/2018 3:55 PM, Bill Degnan via cctech wrote: 

	>
https://retropopplanet.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/vintage-computer.jpg
[5] 

	>  

	> I was not at this particular VCF out in California in the later
90's when 

	> this photo of a DEC exhibit was taken; the original picture from
vintage.org 

	> is no longer hosted. 

	>  

	> Does anyone have a copy of the old vintage.org exhibit/photo
archive? 

	>  

	> Bill  

	I believe that's Pavl Zachary... 

	Photo from 2004 VCF West 7: 

	https://www.flickr.com/photos/geekmuseum/2908317855 [6] 

	On 1/30/2018 3:55 PM, Bill Degnan via cctech wrote: 

	>
https://retropopplanet.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/vintage-computer.jpg
[7] 

	>  

	> I was not at this particular VCF out in California in the later
90's when 

	> this photo of a DEC exhibit was taken; the original picture from
vintage.org 

	> is no longer hosted. 

	>  

	> Does anyone have a copy of the old vintage.org exhibit/photo
archive? 

	>  

	> Bill

Links:
------
[1] mailto:mikelee at tdh.com
[2] mailto:cctech at classiccmp.org
[3] mailto:2a444223-cd25-8686-c836-88313baacd66 at tdh.com
[4] https://www.flickr.com/photos/geekmuseum/2908317855
[5]
https://retropopplanet.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/vintage-computer.jpg
[6] https://www.flickr.com/photos/geekmuseum/2908317855
[7]
https://retropopplanet.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/vintage-computer.jpg


From kevin.bowling at kev009.com  Sat Feb 10 02:07:40 2018
From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 01:07:40 -0700
Subject: FS: Livingston Portmaster 2e
In-Reply-To: <48bbc301-4ea2-c695-4555-390427c73d36@ekoan.com>
References: <CAK7dMtCdEqvx-v2bZiB53Hv6=f=5xjzi_2Bf9XjF7fkmj1Jm9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <48bbc301-4ea2-c695-4555-390427c73d36@ekoan.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7dMtBjwL=Whq_gmaqaWHYvkaCBPhC8Gx9ZLCYEXUmH-JrjtQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Yes a member made an offer for $20 and shipping, worked for me!

Regards,
Kevin

On Thursday, February 8, 2018, Dan Veeneman via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Hi Kevin,
>
> Just checking in to see if this unit was sold.
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> Cheers,
> Dan
>
>
>
> On 1/15/2018 10:42 AM, Kevin Bowling via cctalk wrote:
> > This one is fully upgraded to 30 serial ports.  Just shoot me an
> > offer, I'll probably say yes
> >
> > Regards,
> > Kevin
> >
>

From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Sat Feb 10 02:49:20 2018
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 08:49:20 +0000
Subject: DECwriterIV/LA100s and large DEC monitors available, Cambs UK
In-Reply-To: <0DBF5AAA-BD7D-4BE1-B25A-7BFD3A9E9E01@avanthar.com>
References: <EDC5A1E6-69F2-44BA-AFF0-3F5F8A43B0B3@gmail.com>,
 <0DBF5AAA-BD7D-4BE1-B25A-7BFD3A9E9E01@avanthar.com>
Message-ID: <AM4PR0902MB1748C82FE9339C926A1F0E6E86F10@AM4PR0902MB1748.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>


Van: Zane Healy via cctalk<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Verzonden: vrijdag 9 februari 2018 23:22
Aan: Adrian Graham<mailto:binarydinosaurs at gmail.com>; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Onderwerp: Re: DECwriterIV/LA100s and large DEC monitors available, Cambs UK


> On Feb 9, 2018, at 11:26 AM, Adrian Graham via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> LA100-CA

I?m really glad you?re on the right side of the Pond!  I really don?t have the space to get tempted by something like this! :-)

Zane


I am at the ?right? side, and was very tempted ?
I could not find in a short time the weight of the LA100, but then figured that shipping cost from the UK to The Netherlands would very likely be too costly. But if Adrian can give me an estimate and it would be say ?50 I would seriously reconsider ?
If somebody in the UK could collect for me and has a stay in Holland *anywhere*, I would drive across Holland and pick it up ?
Anybody in Holland trying to get rid of an LA100?
Henk



From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sat Feb 10 08:45:29 2018
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 09:45:29 -0500 (EST)
Subject: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.
Message-ID: <20180210144529.7BDE218C0DD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Grant Taylor cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net 

    > Sorry if this comes across wrong. ... I'm replying in an attempt to
    > provide a counter point for a discussion of reality. So please don't
    > take this as an attack on you, or your laudable appeal.

No problem!

    > When I write things for my personal site, I want them first and
    > foremost to be on my personal site.

Right, but my question is 'why are you writing them?' Is it just because you
enjoy writing, or do you do it in an attempt to convey information to others?
(Or perhaps some motivation I haven't guessed?)

Because if it's the latter, my point is that people are more likely to find
it, when they're looking for info on a topic, if it's part of something like
the CHWiki, than they are on individual Web sites.

Not only can it be included in an organized way (so that one can start with
the home page, and hopefully click on a few links to get to the topic one's
interested in), but Google et al (the _only_ way people are likely to find a
writeup in a personal Web-site) are likely to show the CHWiki page on a topic
fairly high in their search output. (I just tried a few samples to verify
that claim, so it's not just a supposition on my part! :-)

I'm not sure how their display selection algorithm works (and I gather they
are always tweaking it, both in attempt to make the results more useful, but
also to prevent people from gaming it), but it does seem to like sites that
have a mass of content.

So if you're going to put all that work into writing something up, _and_
the goal is for people to use it...

    > Since I'm going to write for my site first, and I'm having to make time
    > to do so ... I think it's more important to get things recorded
    > somewhere, even if it's not the ideal location, than it is to delay
    > getting them recorded elsewhere, if ever.

I agree it's better to have stuff online in a private site, than not at
all. I have done this quite a bit myself, e.g.:

  http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/tech/V6Unix.html
  http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/tech/multics/MulticsPanels.html
  http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/DECIndicatorPanels.html

so I do understand going that way. (The last two could easily be moved to the
CHWiki, if I had the time/energy...)

But speaking of the time to write things, that's another advantage of using
the CHWiki - if you want to mention some technical term/concept, on the
CHWiki you can just link to it with '[[xxx']]', and if some novice reading
the article needs to know more about that topic, they just click on the link;
no need to write explanatory text yourself.

E.g. my 'Bringing up V6 Unix on the Ersatz-11 PDP-11 Emulator' page would
probably have benefitted from that, and been a bit less long-winded as
a result...

	Noel

From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net  Sat Feb 10 10:02:19 2018
From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 11:02:19 -0500
Subject: Good Electronic/computer stores SF area
In-Reply-To: <20180207021323.GB8171@lonesome.com>
References: <b07087d7-50d2-05ca-63ec-365e8ad3a8cb@comcast.net>
 <f3446d4d-7796-0468-20e4-c6783b195c69@bitsavers.org>
 <20180207021323.GB8171@lonesome.com>
Message-ID: <8380c2ba-5da7-f270-1fca-389779397140@comcast.net>

On 2/6/2018 9:13 PM, Mark Linimon via cctalk wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 06, 2018 at 04:50:02PM -0800, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
>> but I've been told ACE has gone out of business
> Their website is now owned by a squatter.
>
> mcl

Thanks to all who responded, I'm going to try and visit some of them 
when I get out there.

When I was in, I think it might have been Sunnyvale, about 30 years ago, 
there was a converted Safeway Supermarket that was full of surplus 
computer equipment.? It was the old style Safeway with a big arching 
ceiling held up by huge wooden beams.? Does this ring any bells with anyone?



From robert626001 at gmail.com  Sat Feb 10 10:08:53 2018
From: robert626001 at gmail.com (Robert)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 10:08:53 -0600
Subject: Good Electronic/computer stores SF area
In-Reply-To: <8380c2ba-5da7-f270-1fca-389779397140@comcast.net>
References: <b07087d7-50d2-05ca-63ec-365e8ad3a8cb@comcast.net>
 <f3446d4d-7796-0468-20e4-c6783b195c69@bitsavers.org>
 <20180207021323.GB8171@lonesome.com>
 <8380c2ba-5da7-f270-1fca-389779397140@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAHDf=2XQjXqe0a0_udzAqqWqqZz8EiadWxZwjZy6apmrH2J6GQ@mail.gmail.com>

Weird Stuff Warehouse? On Jamaica or Caribbean, iirc.

On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 10:02 AM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> On 2/6/2018 9:13 PM, Mark Linimon via cctalk wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 06, 2018 at 04:50:02PM -0800, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
>>>
>>> but I've been told ACE has gone out of business
>>
>> Their website is now owned by a squatter.
>>
>> mcl
>
>
> Thanks to all who responded, I'm going to try and visit some of them when I
> get out there.
>
> When I was in, I think it might have been Sunnyvale, about 30 years ago,
> there was a converted Safeway Supermarket that was full of surplus computer
> equipment.  It was the old style Safeway with a big arching ceiling held up
> by huge wooden beams.  Does this ring any bells with anyone?
>
>

From aek at bitsavers.org  Sat Feb 10 10:49:40 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 08:49:40 -0800
Subject: anyone recognize this blank board?
Message-ID: <99d276e7-1499-d24f-0927-8601a87b7074@bitsavers.org>

https://www.ebay.com/itm/311965565048

The same seller has a VT180 and some variant of the VT100 with an expansion board
I don't recognize

Interesting thing about the blank board is it says "VT-11X" on it and it looks like
it would have been an 8-bit CPU looking at the string of DRAMs on it.


From pbirkel at gmail.com  Sat Feb 10 11:47:49 2018
From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 12:47:49 -0500
Subject: anyone recognize this blank board?
In-Reply-To: <99d276e7-1499-d24f-0927-8601a87b7074@bitsavers.org>
References: <99d276e7-1499-d24f-0927-8601a87b7074@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <08ca01d3a297$44c5ee20$ce51ca60$@gmail.com>

DPM01 DECdataway terminal multiplexer ("a microprocessor-based peripheral interface")?

http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/terminal/EK-VT110_UG-001_Dec78.pdf

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow via cctalk
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 11:50 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: anyone recognize this blank board?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/311965565048

The same seller has a VT180 and some variant of the VT100 with an expansion board
I don't recognize

Interesting thing about the blank board is it says "VT-11X" on it and it looks like
it would have been an 8-bit CPU looking at the string of DRAMs on it.


From mattislind at gmail.com  Sat Feb 10 12:45:06 2018
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 19:45:06 +0100
Subject: Microfiches on Ebay
Message-ID: <CABr82SLgBqAsp37020981VeH02RTTLgrwceW9JrhX+NSmCCn_g@mail.gmail.com>

Ebay seller Lobo Rose Images has almost 300 auctions for microfiches on DEC
documents. Many are already available online but some I cannot find.

http://stores.ebay.com/Lobo-Rose-Images/Microfiche-/_i.html?_fsub=23720215018

/Mattis

From aek at bitsavers.org  Sat Feb 10 12:51:54 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 10:51:54 -0800
Subject: anyone recognize this blank board?
In-Reply-To: <08ca01d3a297$44c5ee20$ce51ca60$@gmail.com>
References: <99d276e7-1499-d24f-0927-8601a87b7074@bitsavers.org>
 <08ca01d3a297$44c5ee20$ce51ca60$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6f63da47-72ec-6a32-322e-c78adab9b73b@bitsavers.org>



On 2/10/18 9:47 AM, Paul Birkel wrote:
> DPM01 DECdataway terminal multiplexer ("a microprocessor-based peripheral interface")?
> 
> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/terminal/EK-VT110_UG-001_Dec78.pdf


doh!
manual was on my web site :-<




From aek at bitsavers.org  Sat Feb 10 12:53:54 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 10:53:54 -0800
Subject: Microfiches on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <CABr82SLgBqAsp37020981VeH02RTTLgrwceW9JrhX+NSmCCn_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABr82SLgBqAsp37020981VeH02RTTLgrwceW9JrhX+NSmCCn_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <88e80570-908d-7888-879b-60a4300215b2@bitsavers.org>


On 2/10/18 10:45 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote:
> Ebay seller Lobo Rose Images has almost 300 auctions for microfiches on DEC
> documents.

how to make a few thousand dollars from a DEC service fiche box..



From healyzh at avanthar.com  Sat Feb 10 16:42:38 2018
From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 14:42:38 -0800
Subject: Microfiches on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <88e80570-908d-7888-879b-60a4300215b2@bitsavers.org>
References: <CABr82SLgBqAsp37020981VeH02RTTLgrwceW9JrhX+NSmCCn_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <88e80570-908d-7888-879b-60a4300215b2@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <F7E391F6-935D-4E90-960F-B66975617191@avanthar.com>


> On Feb 10, 2018, at 10:53 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> On 2/10/18 10:45 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote:
>> Ebay seller Lobo Rose Images has almost 300 auctions for microfiches on DEC
>> documents.
> 
> how to make a few thousand dollars from a DEC service fiche box..

That?s as sicking as the scum that destroy old books and sell the pictures or maps.  I forget what my VAX maintenance library cost, but I?m pretty sure it was under $200.  IIRC, you got the PDP-11 one.  Have you ever gotten anywhere on scanning the fiche you have?

Unfortunately my getting access to a fiche scanner didn?t pan out.

Zane





From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sat Feb 10 17:04:11 2018
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 18:04:11 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Microfiches on Ebay
Message-ID: <20180210230411.B734818C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Mattis Lind

    > Many are already available online but some I cannot find.

Which ones are you missing? I'm curious to see if my set has them.

	Noel

From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Feb 10 18:28:22 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 16:28:22 -0800
Subject: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.
In-Reply-To: <B530D072-62DF-45AD-9F2B-B2561FA3D2B8@gmail.com>
References: <CACaZngmLmb5PAtUO_BosuSz_KzVSoZCf04A5edHf9Kc5vALJ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <B530D072-62DF-45AD-9F2B-B2561FA3D2B8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <10746145-16af-3e72-829c-84f337512783@sydex.com>

Dredging up an old thread, I'd like to report that I found some decent
mini B-to-USB A cables from Monoprice.com.  They're advertised as 28/24
AWG 3 ft. long.   They ran $1.13 each and look to be fit for use.

--Chuck

From useddec at gmail.com  Sun Feb 11 01:01:30 2018
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 01:01:30 -0600
Subject: Microfiches on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <F7E391F6-935D-4E90-960F-B66975617191@avanthar.com>
References: <CABr82SLgBqAsp37020981VeH02RTTLgrwceW9JrhX+NSmCCn_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <88e80570-908d-7888-879b-60a4300215b2@bitsavers.org>
 <F7E391F6-935D-4E90-960F-B66975617191@avanthar.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuMMhyPjOzPOhTr7QRXkW9oYQUk7=r=fWnn1s2nzA6ZN9Q@mail.gmail.com>

We used to get quarterly or so updates, and I have hundreds to sort through
at some point. I hate to break up a complete set too, but these are just
bits and pieces. There is a good chance that is all they have.

Paul

On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 4:42 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> > On Feb 10, 2018, at 10:53 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 2/10/18 10:45 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote:
> >> Ebay seller Lobo Rose Images has almost 300 auctions for microfiches on
> DEC
> >> documents.
> >
> > how to make a few thousand dollars from a DEC service fiche box..
>
> That?s as sicking as the scum that destroy old books and sell the pictures
> or maps.  I forget what my VAX maintenance library cost, but I?m pretty
> sure it was under $200.  IIRC, you got the PDP-11 one.  Have you ever
> gotten anywhere on scanning the fiche you have?
>
> Unfortunately my getting access to a fiche scanner didn?t pan out.
>
> Zane
>
>
>
>
>

From a.carlini at ntlworld.com  Sun Feb 11 07:47:21 2018
From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 13:47:21 +0000
Subject: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.
In-Reply-To: <10746145-16af-3e72-829c-84f337512783@sydex.com>
References: <CACaZngmLmb5PAtUO_BosuSz_KzVSoZCf04A5edHf9Kc5vALJ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <B530D072-62DF-45AD-9F2B-B2561FA3D2B8@gmail.com>
 <10746145-16af-3e72-829c-84f337512783@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <7d7b7336-1d99-ffa0-25af-a5c34f8feb88@ntlworld.com>

On 11/02/18 00:28, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> Dredging up an old thread, I'd like to report that I found some decent
> mini B-to-USB A cables from Monoprice.com.  They're advertised as 28/24
> AWG 3 ft. long.   They ran $1.13 each and look to be fit for use.
>
> --Chuck
>
How do you go about testing them? Do you just use a device that is known 
to require (say) 2A and check that it runs happily or have you rigged up 
something to draw 2A and then check that you don't see a voltage drop 
(and/or smell/see burning!)?


Antonio

-- 
Antonio Carlini
arcarlini at iee.org


From mattislind at gmail.com  Sun Feb 11 09:14:58 2018
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 16:14:58 +0100
Subject: Microfiches on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <20180210230411.B734818C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20180210230411.B734818C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CABr82S+RtBeetceSPNWxWHO0YFo=r8ORVxGk7ozGxTLiK8pVsA@mail.gmail.com>

2018-02-11 0:04 GMT+01:00 Noel Chiappa via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>:

>     > From: Mattis Lind
>
>     > Many are already available online but some I cannot find.
>
> Which ones are you missing? I'm curious to see if my set has them.
>

I cannot find the DW750 Technical manual online for example.  But someone
has bought that fiche now.  Of course there are plenty of manuals for
various printers and other esoteric devices which might be of less
interest.There is a "DEC GT41/GT43 Graphic Display Terminal Install &
Maintenance Manual" for which I cannot find any traces of online. What is
GT41/GT43 BTW?


>
>         Noel
>

/Mattis

From a.carlini at ntlworld.com  Sun Feb 11 09:26:12 2018
From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 15:26:12 +0000
Subject: Microfiches on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuMMhyPjOzPOhTr7QRXkW9oYQUk7=r=fWnn1s2nzA6ZN9Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABr82SLgBqAsp37020981VeH02RTTLgrwceW9JrhX+NSmCCn_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <88e80570-908d-7888-879b-60a4300215b2@bitsavers.org>
 <F7E391F6-935D-4E90-960F-B66975617191@avanthar.com>
 <CACwhfuMMhyPjOzPOhTr7QRXkW9oYQUk7=r=fWnn1s2nzA6ZN9Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b7508755-b9cb-a2a2-e6d4-77c6e17034eb@ntlworld.com>

On 11/02/18 07:01, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote:
> We used to get quarterly or so updates, and I have hundreds to sort through
> at some point. I hate to break up a complete set too, but these are just
> bits and pieces. There is a good chance that is all they have.
>
I'm a little surprised to see the displeasure expressed at people 
selling off bits of fiche (not that I'm planning to do that to mine).

Is it really that bad? Breaking up a system or pulling apart keyboards I 
can see is a "bad thing" as in both cases the end result
removes one vintage computer from the ecosystem or, in the case of 
keyboard pillaging, makes it that much harder to put together
a vintage system that could have used that keyboard.

But selling off bits of fiche doesn't seem to do the same harm, as far 
as I can tell. I have a fiche set that came from an FS engineer.
I don't know if it is complete but I don't even know what "complete" 
means since the updates come with instructions on exactly which
fiche sets to replace *and discard*. In my set, some of those updates 
had never been processed, and so I have the original fiche and the
replacement fiche, and in other cases the update was done and he'd got 
as far as cutting through the old fiche but they were still in the
fiche reader case.

As I say, I'm keeping mine, but I have no real need for most of the 
fiche, only those bits that refer to equipment I have or manuals
I may want to read. (Actually the second category is one reason for me 
to keep everything: I'm really lousy at predictions, especially
those involving the future ...). But if I were to sell of the surplus or 
duplicates or even fiche I decide I'm not interested in, how is that
worse than me selling off a manual I don't think I'll need?

Just curious.

Antonio

-- 
Antonio Carlini
arcarlini at iee.org


From pbirkel at gmail.com  Sun Feb 11 09:36:27 2018
From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 10:36:27 -0500
Subject: Microfiches on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <CABr82S+RtBeetceSPNWxWHO0YFo=r8ORVxGk7ozGxTLiK8pVsA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20180210230411.B734818C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CABr82S+RtBeetceSPNWxWHO0YFo=r8ORVxGk7ozGxTLiK8pVsA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <098c01d3a34e$1541b280$3fc51780$@gmail.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mattis Lind via cctalk
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 10:15 AM
To: Noel Chiappa; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Microfiches on Ebay

2018-02-11 0:04 GMT+01:00 Noel Chiappa via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>:

>     > From: Mattis Lind
>
>     > Many are already available online but some I cannot find.
>
> Which ones are you missing? I'm curious to see if my set has them.

I cannot find the DW750 Technical manual online for example.  But someone
has bought that fiche now.  Of course there are plenty of manuals for
various printers and other esoteric devices which might be of less
interest.There is a "DEC GT41/GT43 Graphic Display Terminal Install &
Maintenance Manual" for which I cannot find any traces of online. What is
GT41/GT43 BTW?

>         Noel
>

/Mattis

-----

I screen-scraped the following list of available microfiche.  I certainly don't recognize some of those items!

DEC 433MP Application Service Guide, Microfiche
DEC 881 Power Controller User Guide, Microfiche
DEC AA50 Digital To Analog Converter Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC AAV11 ADV11 KWV11-A DRV11 Users Guides, Microfiche
DEC ADQ32 A/D Converter Module User Guide, Microfiche
DEC ADQ32-SF A/D Converter Module Option Installation Guide, Microfiche
DEC ADV11-SF Analog-To-Digital Converter Module Option Install Guide, Microfiche
DEC ASF171 Automatic Sheet Feeder, Microfiche
DEC AXV11-C/KWV11-C Analog Module And Real-Time Clock Module, Microfiche
DEC AXV11-SF Analog I/O Module Option Installation Guide, Microfiche
DEC BA11-A Mounting Box And Power System Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC BA11-K 10.5 Inch Mounting Box Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC BA11-L Mounting Box Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC BA123 Enclosure Maintenance, Microfiche
DEC BA123-UC Inner Shield Upgrade Kit Installation Guide, Microfiche
DEC BA214 Enclosure Maintenance, Microfiche
DEC BA215 Enclosure Maintenance, Microfiche
DEC BA220/221 E-Series Industrial Workstation Maintenance Advisory, Microfiche
DEC BA400 Series Enclosures Storage Devices Installation Procedures, Microfiche
DEC BAM11 Status/Alarm Monitor Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC BDV11 Bus Terminator/Bootstrap/Diagnostic Technical & ROM Manuals Microfiche
DEC BL01 AC Line Monitor Maintenance Manual, Microfiche
DEC BM873 Restart/Loader Manual, Microfiche
DEC CB11 Telplant Interface Manual, Microfiche
DEC CD11 Card Reader System Manual, Microfiche
DEC CI750 Computer Interconnect Technical Description Manual, Microfiche (2)
DEC CMR11 Technical & Installation Manuals (2), Microfiche (2)
DEC CVC Installation And Operation Manual H7226 (60Hz), Microfiche
DEC CXY08 Asynchronous Multiplexer Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC DA11-F Unibus Window Maintenance Manual, Microfiche
DEC DA28-A Interprocessor Buffer Maintenance Manual, Microfiche
DEC DA28-C Interprocessor Buffer Maintenance Manual, Microfiche
DEC DA28-F Interprocessor Buffer Maintenance Manual, Microfiche
DEC DA28-J Interprocessor Buffer Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC DAV11-B LSI-11 DMA Interprocessor Link Option Description, Microfiche
DEC DB11-A Bus Repeater Manual, Microfiche
DEC DB11-H Bus Repeater Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC DC08 Telegraph Line Maintenance Manual, Microfiche
DEC DECconnect System Facilities Cabling Installation Guide, Microfiche
DEC DECmux 300 Remote Terminal Multiplexer Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC DECOM Broadband Ethernet Transceiver Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC DECserver 100 Terminal Server Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC DECserver 200/MC Hardware Installation Owner's Guide, Microfiche
DEC DECstation 210 Personal Computer Service Guide, Microfiche
DEC DECstation 300 SERIES Personal Computer Service Guide, Microfiche
DEC DEFTR Digital Broadband Ethernet Frequency Translator Manuals, Microfiche
DEC DELQA-SF Q-Bus To Ethernet Adapter Option Installation Guide, Microfiche
DEC DEMPR Digital Thinwire Ethernet Multiport Repeater Guide, Microfiche
DEC DEMWA Digital Ethernet Microwave Adapter Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC DEPCA Digital Ethernet Personal Computer Bus Adapter Guide, Microfiche
DEC DEQNA User's Guide, Microfiche
DEC DEQNA-SF Ethernet Interface Option Installation Guide, Microfiche
DEC DEREP Ethernet Repeater Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC DESQA-SF Switchable Qbus To Ethernet Adapter Option Guide, Microfiche
DEC DESTA Digital Thinwire Ethernet Station Adapter, Microfiche
DEC DF11-W Interface Service Manual, Microfiche
DEC DFC11-A Converter Clock Maintenance Manual, Microfiche
DEC DFS11-BA/BC EIA RS-422 Signal Cond. Module Option Description, Microfiche
DEC DFS11-BB/BD Mil 188-114B Signal Condition Mod Option Description, Microfiche
DEC DH11 Asynchronous Multiplexer Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC DHB32 Asynchronous Multiplexer User Guide, Microfiche
DEC DHQ11 Asynchronous Multiplexer Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC DHU11 Interface Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC DHV11 Remote Distribution Cabinet Kit Installation & Technical Manuals (2)
DEC DJ11 Asynchronous Line Multiplexer Maintenance Manual, Microfiche
DEC DL11 Asynchronous Line Interface Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC DL11-W Serial Line Unit/Real Time Clock Option Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC DLV11-E/F Asynchronous Line Interface User's Manual, Microfiche
DEC DLV11-J User's Guide, Microfiche
DEC DM11-BA Modem Control Multiplexer Option Description, Microfiche
DEC DMA10-H/D/G Memory Sharing Interface Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC DMB32 Asynchronous/Synchronous Multiplexer Technical Description, Microfiche
DEC DMC11 IPL Line Unit Maint & Microprocessor Technical Manuals, Microfiche
DEC DMF32 Multi-Function Communications Interface Tech Description, Microfiche
DEC DMR11 Synchronous Controller Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC DMV11 Synchronous Controller Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC DN11 Automatic Calling Unit Interface Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC DP01A Data Channel Maintenance Manual, Microfiche
DEC DP11-A Synchronous Interface Manual, Microfiche
DEC DPM50 Technical Description, Microfiche
DEC DPV11 Serial Interface Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC DPV11-SF Synchronous Interface Option Installation Guide, Microfiche
DEC DQ11 NPR Synchronous Line Interface Maintenance Manual, Microfiche (2)
DEC DR780 General Purpose Interface Technical Description, Microfiche
DEC DRQ3B-SF Parallel DMA I/O Module Option Installation Guide, Microfiche
DEC DRU11-C/DRE11-C Alt Buffer DMA Interface Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC DRV1J-SA/SF Parallel Line Interface Module Installation Guide, Microfiche
DEC DRV1J-SF Parallel Line Interface Module Option Installation Guide Microfiche
DEC DRV1W-SF General Purpose DMA Interface Option Installation, Microfiche
DEC DS11 Synchronous Interface Maintenance Manual, Microfiche
DEC DSA Error Log Manual & Troubleshooting Flowchart, Microfiche
DEC DSRZB Register Server Installation User's Guide, Microfiche
DEC DT11 Bus Switch Maintenance Manual, Microfiche
DEC DU11 Synchronous Interface Maintenance Manual, Microfiche
DEC DUP11 Bit Synchronous Maintenance Manual, Microfiche
DEC DUV11 Line Interface Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC DV11 Communications Multiplexer Maintenance Manual, Microfiche
DEC DW780 Unibus Adaptor Technical Description, Microfiche
DEC DWBUA Unibus Adapter Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC DYS50 Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC DYT01 DecDataway Terminal Interface Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC DZ11 Asynchronous Multiplexer Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC DZ11-X Asynchronous Multiplexer Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC DZ32 Asynchronous Multiplexer Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC DZQ11 Asynchronous Multiplexer Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC DZV11 Asynchronous Multiplexer Technical & User's Manuals (2), Microfiche
DEC Ethernet Communications Server & Network Interconnect Manuals, Microfiche
DEC Ethernet/IEEE Thinwire Repeaters (DEMPR/DESPR) Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC Factory Systems Site Preperation Guide, Microfiche
DEC FEPCM Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC FP11-A Floating Point Processor Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC FP11-C Floating Point Processor Maintenance Manual, Microfiche
DEC FP11-F Floating Point Processor Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC FP780 Floating Point Accelerator Technical Description, Microfiche
DEC GAMMA-11 System Installation And Maintenance Manual, Microfiche
DEC GS03 General Device Switch Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC GT41/GT43 Graphic Display Terminal Install & Maintenance Manual, Microfiche
DEC H4000-T Ethernet IEEE 802.3 Transceiver Tester User Guide, Microfiche
DEC H4005 802.3 Transceiver Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC H7202B Power System Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC H7202J Power Supply Technical Description, Microfiche
DEC H7224 Power Distribution System Branch Implement Plan Manual, Microfiche
DEC H7227 Power Distribution System Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC H7317 Power Distribution System Plus (50/60 HZ) Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC H7318 Power Conditioning System Plus (50/60 HZ) Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC H740D Power Supply Maintenance Manual, Microfiche
DEC H780-C, -D, -H, -J, -K, -L Power Supply User's Manual, Microfiche
DEC H9500 Corporate Cabinet System, Microfiche
DEC H9642-J Cabinet Maintenance, Microfiche
DEC H9660 EMI/RFI Cabinet Installation And Maintenance Manual, Microfiche
DEC H9901 Industrial Computer Enclosure Pocket Service & User's Guides (2)
DEC HA3000 Uninterruptible Power System Installation Manual And User Guide
DEC HSC50 Off-Line & In-Line Diagnostics And Utilities Documentation, Microfiche
DEC IEU11-A/IEQ11-A User's Guide, Microfiche
DEC KA780 Central Processor Technical Description, Microfiche
DEC KA86 EMM VAX 8600 Environmental Monitoring Technical Description, Microfiche
DEC KBD01 Option For PDP 11/44 User Guide, Microfiche
DEC KC780 Console Interface Board Technical Description, Microfiche
DEC KCT32 VAX/VMS Installation & Programmable Communication Manuals, Microfiche
DEC KCT32-XA V.35 Interface Installation Manual, Microfiche
DEC KD11-A Processor Maintenance Manual, Microfiche (2)
DEC KD11-B Processor Maintenance Manual, Microfiche
DEC KD11-E Central Processor Maintenance Manual & 11/34 Rom Listing, Microfiche
DEC KD11-EA Central Processor Maintenance Manual, Microfiche
DEC KD11-Z PDP-11/44 System Technical Manual, Microfiche (2)
DEC KDB50 Disk Controller Technical Description, Microfiche (2)
DEC KE11-E Instruction Set Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC KG11-A Exclusive OR And CRC Block Check Maintenance Manual, Microfiche
DEC KMS11-A/B Communications Processor Option Descriptions, Microfiche
DEC KMS11-BD/BE Communications Processor Option Description, Microfiche
DEC KMS11-K Data Interface Service Manual, Microfiche
DEC KMS11-P Synchronous Communication Processor Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC KMV11 Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC KMV1A Programmable Communications Controller Technical & User's Manuals (2)
DEC KT11-C,CD Memory Management Unit Maintenance Manual, Microfiche
DEC KT11-D Memory Management Option Manual, Microfiche
DEC KU116-BB/AB Option Diagnostic & Extended Control Store Hardware Reference
DEC KW11K User's Manual Microfiche
DEC KW11-L/W/P Programmable Real-Time Clock & Watchdog Timer Manuals Microfiche
DEC KW11-P Programmable Real-Time Clock User's Manual Microfiche
DEC KY11-R Family Of Electronic Consoles Technical Manual Microfiche
DEC KZQSA Module Installation Guide, Microfiche
DEC LA210 Technical Manual, Microfiche (2)
DEC LA34-S Decwriter IV Series Technical Manual Microfiche
DEC LA36 Decwriter ll Maintenance Manual, Microfiche
DEC LA75/LA75P Companion Printers Technical & Maintenance Advisory Manuals (2)
DEC LAN Bridge 100 Network Bridge Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC LAN Bridge 150 Installation, Microfiche
DEC LAV11/LPV11 Printer System User's Manual Microfiche
DEC LC11 Decwriter System Manual Microfiche
DEC LCG01 Color Printing System Installation/Operator's & Technical Manuals (2)
DEC LCP01 Color Printing System Users & Installation/Operators Manual Microfiche
DEC LG01 600 LPM Text Printer Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC LG02 600 LPM Text And Graphics Printer Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC LJ250/LJ252 Companion Color Printer Pocket Service Guide, Microfiche
DEC LK11 Pushbutton Option Manual Microfiche
DEC LK40 A,B,C,B Keyboard Manual Microfiche
DEC LLF01 Long Line Fiber Optic Interface Installation/Maintenance Manual
DEC LN01/LN01S (50/60 Hz) Functional Documentation Microfiche (3)
DEC LN03 & LN03 Plus ISO/PC Cartridge Maintenance Advisory, Microfiche
DEC LN03 Installing And Using, Maintenance Advisory, Technical Manuals (3)
DEC LN03A Laser Printer Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC LN03R ScriptPrinter Maintenance Advisory, Microfiche
DEC LP01/02 Line Printer Preventive Maint Manual, Microfiche
DEC LP05 2230 Line Printer Technical Manual, Microfiche (2)
DEC LP11/LS11/LA11 Line Printer Manual, Microfiche
DEC LP20 Line Printer System Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC LP25/LP26 Print Set, Microfiche (2)
DEC LP27 Line Printer Technical Installation Users Manuals (3), Microfiche (4)
DEC LP27/LP29 Line Printer Installation & Operators Manuals (2), Microfiche (2)
DEC LP29 Line Printer Maintenance Guide, Microfiche
DEC LPA11/LS11/LA11 Line Printer User Manual, Microfiche
DEC LPA11-K Laboratory Accelerator, Microfiche
DEC LPC01 Universal Interface Maint Manual, Microfiche
DEC LPD11 Interface Maintenance Manual, Microfiche
DEC LPR11 Remote Printer System Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC LPS11-S Laboratory System Maintenance Manual, Microfiche
DEC LQP02 Printer Technical & Pocket Service Manuals (2), Microfiche
DEC LQP03 Printer Pocket Service Guide, Microfiche
DEC LQP45 Daisy Wheel Printer Service Manual, Microfiche (2)
DEC LS120 Decwriter lll (3) Technical Manual, Microfiche (2)
DEC LSP25 Band Printer Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC LSP26 Band Printer Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC LV8/12/11 Printer/Plotter Users Guide, Microfiche
DEC LXR11 Remote Printer/Plotter System Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC LXV11 Impact Printer/Plotter Option Description, Microfiche
DEC LXY12/LXY22 Impact Printer/Plotter User's & Installation Manuals, Microfiche
DEC LXY21 Impact Printer/Plotter Option Description, Microfiche
DEC M7850 Parity Controller Maintenance Manual, Microfiche
DEC M8203 Line Unit Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC M8224 Rom Lists Forks 11 And IRC, Microfiche
DEC MDE Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC MIRA Technical & Installation And Maintenance Manuals (2), Microfiche
DEC MuxServer 100 Network Reference & Installation Manuals (2), Microfiche
DEC MuxServer 300 Remote Terminal Server Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC PrintServer 40 Installation Guide, Microfiche
DEC Professional VRTS1-A Color/Touch Screen Mini Maintenance Manual, Microfiche
DEC QMA DLV Asynchronous Line Interface Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC QMA DMP11 Synchronous Controller Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC QMA DMR11 Synchronous Controller Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC QMA DZ11 Asynchronous Multiplexer Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC R80 Disk Drive Service Manual & Technical Description, Microfiche (2)
DEC RA80 Disk Drive Service Manual, Microfiche
DEC RA81 Disk Drive Service & User Manuals (2), Microfiche (2)
DEC RA8X Preventive Maintenance Procedures, Microfiche
DEC Rainbow Winchester Disk Option Installation Guide, Microfiche
DEC RC25 Disk Subsystem Installation Guide, Microfiche
DEC RD25 Fixed Disk Drive Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC RD33 Fixed Disk Drive Technical & Service Manuals (2), Microfiche
DEC RD52-A Disk Drive Technical Description, Microfiche
DEC RF-Delua Station Interface Unit Installation Guide, Microfiche
DEC RF-LA1DR-AA Dot Matrix Printer User's Guide (US Area Only), Microfiche
DEC RF-PCXXF Floor Stand Illustrated Parts Brkdwn, Microfiche
DEC RL01/RL02 Technical Manuals Vol. 1 & 2, Microfiche (2)
DEC RM03 Disk Drive Technical Manual, Microfiche (2)
DEC RM05 Disk Subsystem Service Manual, Microfiche
DEC RM80 Disk Drive Technical Description & Service Manuals (2), Microfiche (2)
DEC RQDX3 Controller Module User's Guide, Microfiche
DEC RRD50 Digital Disk Drive Technical Description, Microfiche
DEC RRD50/40 Q-Bus Controller Installation Guide, Microfiche
DEC RT137 Hardened Terminal Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC RT1XX-AE Key Board Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC RV20 Optical Disk Subsystem Service Guide, Microfiche
DEC RX33 Diskette Drive Technical Description Manual, Microfiche
DEC RXV11 User's Manual, Microfiche
DEC SA106/TA867 Storage Subsystem User And Installation Guide, Microfiche
DEC SA550 Storage Array Family Configuration Guide, Microfiche
DEC SF100 Storage Array Installation Guide, Microfiche
DEC TK50 Tape Drive Subsystem Owners & Technical Manuals (2), Microfiche
DEC TK70 Tape Drive Subsystem Maintenance Advisory, Microfiche
DEC TM03 Magtape Tech Manual, Microfiche
DEC TSU05 Tape Transport Subsystem Installation Manual, Microfiche
DEC TU81/TA81 Pathfinder & Tape Subsystem Technical Manuals (2), Microfiche (3)
DEC TZK50/SCSI Controller Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC UDA50 Service Manual, Microfiche
DEC VAX 4/VAXStation 4 Upgrade Installation Guide, Microfiche
DEC VAX 4000 Model 200 (BA215) Installation And Operation, Microfiche
DEC VAX 8600/8650 System Installation Manual, Microfiche
DEC VR260 Monochrome Video Monitor Maintenance Advisory, Microfiche
DEC VT105 Graphic Terminal Technical Manual, Microfiche
DEC VT1XX Installation Manual, Microfiche
DEC VT220 Technical Installation & Additional Features Manuals (3), Microfiche
DEC VT240 Series Technical Installation & Additional Features Manuals (3)
DEC VT320 Video Terminal Pocket Service Guide, Microfiche
DEC VT330 Video Terminal Pocket Service Guide, Microfiche
DEC VT340 Video Terminal Pocket Service Guide, Microfiche
DEC VT52 Decscope Maintenance Manual, Microfiche
DEC VTX20 Technical Description, Microfiche
DEC Workstations & MicroVax 2000 Network Guide, Microfiche

-----


From aek at bitsavers.org  Sun Feb 11 10:39:25 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 08:39:25 -0800
Subject: Microfiches on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <CABr82S+RtBeetceSPNWxWHO0YFo=r8ORVxGk7ozGxTLiK8pVsA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20180210230411.B734818C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CABr82S+RtBeetceSPNWxWHO0YFo=r8ORVxGk7ozGxTLiK8pVsA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <89564b07-c69b-2a9b-e972-87dc65cc7971@bitsavers.org>



On 2/11/18 7:14 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote:
> What is
> GT41/GT43 BTW?
> 

VT-11 in a 11/35 or 11/40

the GT-46 is a VT-11 in an 11/34



From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Feb 11 11:37:52 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 09:37:52 -0800
Subject: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.
In-Reply-To: <7d7b7336-1d99-ffa0-25af-a5c34f8feb88@ntlworld.com>
References: <CACaZngmLmb5PAtUO_BosuSz_KzVSoZCf04A5edHf9Kc5vALJ0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <B530D072-62DF-45AD-9F2B-B2561FA3D2B8@gmail.com>
 <10746145-16af-3e72-829c-84f337512783@sydex.com>
 <7d7b7336-1d99-ffa0-25af-a5c34f8feb88@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <b9157419-fa1e-a401-56c0-5ecbdf1b5b74@sydex.com>

On 02/11/2018 05:47 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote:

> How do you go about testing them? Do you just use a device that is known
> to require (say) 2A and check that it runs happily or have you rigged up
> something to draw 2A and then check that you don't see a voltage drop
> (and/or smell/see burning!)?

Easier than that--I just measure the resistance.

--Chuck


From unifoundry at gmail.com  Fri Feb  9 17:24:49 2018
From: unifoundry at gmail.com (Paul Hardy)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 15:24:49 -0800
Subject: Reading a PDP-11 RL02: Anyone Around the U.S. West Coast?
Message-ID: <CAJqvfD8VQhXF=w+_KZqmcca9f7AHRRKMOPbmjRr8ZUbbFMDNaA@mail.gmail.com>

Greetings,

I have an old PDP-11 RL02 that I would like to read, to preserve its data
for archival purposes.  Ideally I would like to extract and store every
block on the disk.  I am in southern California but would be willing to
drive a day or so to anyone who still has an RL02 disk drive on a PDP-11 or
VAX and can read it.

I can bring a computer with X/Y/Zmodem/Kermit and RS-232 cables if that
helps.

Thanks,


Paul Hardy

From ed at groenenberg.net  Sat Feb 10 04:34:45 2018
From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 11:34:45 +0100 (CET)
Subject: VT-110 keyboard keycaps & nvram
In-Reply-To: <EDC5A1E6-69F2-44BA-AFF0-3F5F8A43B0B3@gmail.com>
References: <EDC5A1E6-69F2-44BA-AFF0-3F5F8A43B0B3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <59334.10.10.10.2.1518258885.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net>


Recently I got a VT100 in pretty nice condition with an extra keyboard.
Now, both keyboards did have missing keys, but I was able to make one
of them nearly complete by cannibalising them from the 2nd one.
I only miss the 'SETUP' and the 'No Scroll' key cap.

So, is there someone who has these as spare keys and is willing to
depart from them? I have other key caps for swap, although not every
key might be available.

Thanks,

Ed
--
Ik email, dus ik besta.



From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Sun Feb 11 13:14:52 2018
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 12:14:52 -0700
Subject: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.
In-Reply-To: <20180210144529.7BDE218C0DD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20180210144529.7BDE218C0DD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <c2dbc726-05ca-275e-6d80-29141c9902fc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 02/10/2018 07:45 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
> Right, but my question is 'why are you writing them?' Is it just because 
> you enjoy writing, or do you do it in an attempt to convey information 
> to others?  (Or perhaps some motivation I haven't guessed?)

Because I want to?
Because I want to document something that I've done or learned.
Because I want to share said documentation.
Because I want to (hopefully) help others.
Because I want others to be able to learn from my toil.

> Because if it's the latter, my point is that people are more likely 
> to find it, when they're looking for info on a topic, if it's part of 
> something like the CHWiki, than they are on individual Web sites.

I hear what you're saying.  However I question the validity of it.

For starters, I can't say as I've knowingly been to the CHWiki as I've 
been researching things over the years.  Maybe I have and would 
recognize it when I see it.

So, I spent some time searching the thread for the CHWiki's address. 
And I've not found what I would think to be it yet.  Further, searching 
Google for CHWiki came up with things that I think were name collisions.

As you pointed out and commented about the links you provided, they are 
online somewhere other than the CHWiki.

So what compels me to put content on someone else's site and not my site?

Maybe it's silly, but I view my site as somewhat of it's own brand (as 
minimal ~> non-existent as it may be) and I use it as my own reference.

One of my main reasons for putting things on my site (other than it 
being somewhere that I control) is that I can search my site and use it 
as my own notes.  -  Notes that just happen to be public for others to 
learn from.

> Not only can it be included in an organized way (so that one can start 
> with the home page, and hopefully click on a few links to get to the topic 
> one's interested in), but Google et al (the _only_ way people are likely 
> to find a writeup in a personal Web-site)

I'm going to have to disagree with you.

I think that I find the vast majority of interesting content via social 
networks, when people publish links to their articles on their own sites.

I've probably amassed over 200 different sites ~> authors that I keep 
periodic tabs on via RSS feeds.  Ultimately I can argue that I'm finding 
/more/ valuable content this way than I would if I were to only find 
things in a centralized location.

I also see a number of interesting links float through mailing lists and 
newsgroups.  Point in case, I'll likely be going through your website (I 
believe again) based on the links you provided below.

Since I'm playing the part of the Devils Advocate, I'd be more likely to 
publish things on (what I consider to be) an even bigger and more well 
known Wiki, namely Wikipedia.

I'm sorry, but you haven't provided any compelling reason for /me/ to 
publish things somewhere else before I publish it on my own site.

I'd like to restate that I have zero qualms with people taking what they 
learn from my site and using it to grow ideas and develop their own 
articles.  -  I simply ask that they give me credit or cite me / my site 
as a source.

To this end, I've had a few people contact me and ask for permission to 
publish derived works.  I've responded to all of such requests with 
humility that they asked, appreciation for the consideration, and my 
blessing to go forward and create something better.

I have walked on the shoulders of giants that came before me, and I'm 
happy to have others walk on my shoulders (not that I'm a giant).

> I'm not sure how their display selection algorithm works (and I gather 
> they are always tweaking it, both in attempt to make the results more 
> useful, but also to prevent people from gaming it), but it does seem to 
> like sites that have a mass of content.

I think we've had different experiences.

The number of links to a site does help, but I believe it's a ratio to 
the number of pages on the site.  At least that's my impression.

> So if you're going to put all that work into writing something up, _and_ 
> the goal is for people to use it...

I believe that people can find things on my site, as small as it is.

> I agree it's better to have stuff online in a private site, than not at 
> all. I have done this quite a bit myself, e.g.:
> 
>   http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/tech/V6Unix.html
>   http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/tech/multics/MulticsPanels.html
>   http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/DECIndicatorPanels.html
> 
> so I do understand going that way. (The last two could easily be moved 
> to the CHWiki, if I had the time/energy...)

So, I glibly observe, that it seems as if you are asking us to do 
something different than you yourself are currently doing, for much the 
same reasoning that I outlined.

> But speaking of the time to write things, that's another advantage of 
> using the CHWiki - if you want to mention some technical term/concept, 
> on the CHWiki you can just link to it with '[[xxx']]', and if some novice 
> reading the article needs to know more about that topic, they just click 
> on the link; no need to write explanatory text yourself.

Or I can put an <abbr> or <a> tag (pairs) around content and create new 
pages on my site, thus growing my site's value to myself and others.

> E.g. my 'Bringing up V6 Unix on the Ersatz-11 PDP-11 Emulator' page would 
> probably have benefitted from that, and been a bit less long-winded as 
> a result...

I don't see a reason that you can't link from your site to CHWiki, or 
anywhere else for that matter, for additional content.

I guess that I can be selfish and say that my site is first and foremost 
for me.  If others happen to be able to learn from or benefit from it, 
GREAT!  But I'm going to do things for me, where I want (on my site) 
first and foremost.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Sun Feb 11 13:19:02 2018
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 12:19:02 -0700
Subject: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.
In-Reply-To: <c2dbc726-05ca-275e-6d80-29141c9902fc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <20180210144529.7BDE218C0DD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <c2dbc726-05ca-275e-6d80-29141c9902fc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <03241e3d-79d7-3ca0-4e4f-590e62a4afe2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 02/11/2018 12:14 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> As you pointed out and commented about the links you provided, they are 
> online somewhere other than the CHWiki.

I also see a LOT of content that could go on CHWiki, et al, that pass 
through mailing lists and newsgroups.  Both of which are mediums that do 
not intersect CHWiki or the World Wide Web.  -  I would be shocked if 
there aren't some participants to various mailing lists / newsgroups 
that are sharing their expertise of things via something they can access 
compared to not sharing with something that they can't (or won't) 
access, namely WWW.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Sun Feb 11 12:15:14 2018
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 13:15:14 -0500
Subject: Reading a PDP-11 RL02: Anyone Around the U.S. West Coast?
In-Reply-To: <CAJqvfD8VQhXF=w+_KZqmcca9f7AHRRKMOPbmjRr8ZUbbFMDNaA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJqvfD8VQhXF=w+_KZqmcca9f7AHRRKMOPbmjRr8ZUbbFMDNaA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBudhwgKNEYWPctrcOPHz3d_03R1hLwQvou7rqNw4uuR0zg@mail.gmail.com>

What is the OS of the disks, what system was this disk used to create/save
files to the RL02?
Bill

On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 6:24 PM, Paul Hardy via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org
> wrote:

> Greetings,
>
> I have an old PDP-11 RL02 that I would like to read, to preserve its data
> for archival purposes.  Ideally I would like to extract and store every
> block on the disk.  I am in southern California but would be willing to
> drive a day or so to anyone who still has an RL02 disk drive on a PDP-11 or
> VAX and can read it.
>
> I can bring a computer with X/Y/Zmodem/Kermit and RS-232 cables if that
> helps.
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Paul Hardy
>

From a.carlini at ntlworld.com  Sun Feb 11 14:31:17 2018
From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 20:31:17 +0000
Subject: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.
In-Reply-To: <c2dbc726-05ca-275e-6d80-29141c9902fc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <20180210144529.7BDE218C0DD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <c2dbc726-05ca-275e-6d80-29141c9902fc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <c54e992f-9efe-c3d7-12b4-e69eef4b845b@ntlworld.com>

On 11/02/18 19:14, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
>
>
> So what compels me to put content on someone else's site and not my site?
>

Nothing but if you're OK with the CHWiki linking to your site (or even 
wholesale copying articles with an attribution) that would be a start 
(even if it's someone other than you doing it).

There are already articles that come from Wikipedia (with attribution) 
so I assume that linking to other sites (or lifting articles with 
permission) would be OK too.

> I guess that I can be selfish and say that my site is first and 
> foremost for me.  If others happen to be able to learn from or benefit 
> from it, GREAT!  But I'm going to do things for me, where I want (on 
> my site) first and foremost.

One advantage (for the rest of us, at least) might be that the CHWiki 
might outlast your site (although if you've asked archive.org to keep 
tabs on your site, that may not be the case I suppose).

Antonio

-- 
Antonio Carlini
arcarlini at iee.org


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sun Feb 11 14:41:30 2018
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 15:41:30 -0500 (EST)
Subject: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.
Message-ID: <20180211204130.9EF4318C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Grant Taylor

    >> people are more likely to find it, when they're looking for info on a
    >> topic, if it's part of something like the CHWiki, than they are on
    >> individual Web sites.

    > I question the validity of it.

It wasn't just supposition on my part; as I had mentioned:

    >> I just tried a few samples to verify that claim

and I didn't cheat by using, e.g. KT11-B, I tried to use fairly generic
things, e.g. 'RK05 disk drive' (third listing), 'PDP-11' (fifth listing),
etc.

Admittedly, that's hardly cast-iron proof, but it's a lot beter than just 'it
stands to [my] reason'....


    > searching Google for CHWiki came up with things that I think were name
    > collisions.

Huh? If you do a Google search for 'computer history wiki', it's the first
non-Wikipedia page in the results list.

I call it the CHWiki when typing posts for here since I would get tired of
typing out the whole long 'Computer History wiki' every time, but I will add
that short term to some pages there to help it show up under that name.


    > I'd be more likely to publish things on (what I consider to be) an even
    > bigger and more well known Wiki, namely Wikipedia.

Be my guest! :-) I've been there, done that, and moved on, because I got
tired of stupidity like this:

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:History_of_the_Internet/Archive_3#Pictures

Also, the page that started this ("How to enable USB drives in both Windows
98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1") might well be ditched from Wikipedia, for a variety of
Wiki-bureacratic reasons I won't get into here ('no original research', plus
to which it's not really suitable material for a general encyclopaedia).


    >>   http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/tech/V6Unix.html
    >>   http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/tech/multics/MulticsPanels.html
    >>   http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/DECIndicatorPanels.html
    >>
    >> so I do understand going that way.

    > it seems as if you are asking us to do something different than you
    > yourself are currently doing

Err, no. The first and third _pre-date_ my joining the CHWiki.

Why I did the second one as a page on my own site, I don't really recall -
maybe because it changed so much in the course of researching it? (It's very
convenient - I had the HTML source on disk opened in a browser window, and
any time I wanted to see what it currently looked like, I just had to hit the
'refresh' button.)

I have done several major things only on the CHWiki, e.g.:

  http://gunkies.org/wiki/KT11-B_Technical_Manual

as well as a ton of other stuff.


But clearly you aren't interested in moving off your own personal site -
which is fine.

	Noel

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sun Feb 11 14:58:48 2018
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 15:58:48 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Reading a PDP-11 RL02: Anyone Around the U.S. West Coast?
Message-ID: <20180211205848.F1AF318C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Bill Degnan

    > What is the OS of the disks, what system was this disk used to
    > create/save files to the RL02?

Doesn't really matter, does it, as long as the bits can all be read off the
pack into a file?

Once it's in a file, the appropriate OS, running in a simulator (and most
are, these days) can read the files out. Worst case, someone can write a
program to read the files out (I've done that for V6 filesystems - before I
found http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Tools/Filesys/) and also 4.2 FFS. (And
somewhere I used to have a program to read DOS disks, but I just looked and
couldn't find it.)

	Noel

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 11 15:10:07 2018
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 21:10:07 +0000
Subject: Reading a PDP-11 RL02: Anyone Around the U.S. West Coast?
In-Reply-To: <20180211205848.F1AF318C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20180211205848.F1AF318C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <BN1PR0101MB075414A472B49FE9E7440F28EDF00@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>



On 02/11/2018 03:58 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
>      > From: Bill Degnan
>
>      > What is the OS of the disks, what system was this disk used to
>      > create/save files to the RL02?
>
> Doesn't really matter, does it, as long as the bits can all be read off the
> pack into a file?
>
> Once it's in a file, the appropriate OS, running in a simulator (and most
> are, these days) can read the files out. Worst case, someone can write a
> program to read the files out (I've done that for V6 filesystems - before I
> found http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Tools/Filesys/) and also 4.2 FFS. (And
> somewhere I used to have a program to read DOS disks, but I just looked and
> couldn't find it.)
>
>

All it takes is a real system with ODT and vtserver.? Used to do it
all the time.? But I no longer have any real RL drives.

bill


From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Sun Feb 11 15:46:00 2018
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 14:46:00 -0700
Subject: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.
In-Reply-To: <c54e992f-9efe-c3d7-12b4-e69eef4b845b@ntlworld.com>
References: <20180210144529.7BDE218C0DD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <c2dbc726-05ca-275e-6d80-29141c9902fc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <c54e992f-9efe-c3d7-12b4-e69eef4b845b@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <cbd6d535-28f1-9940-f0bc-056d6f35de86@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 02/11/2018 01:31 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote:
> Nothing but if you're OK with the CHWiki linking to your site (or even 
> wholesale copying articles with an attribution) that would be a start 
> (even if it's someone other than you doing it).

I would like other sites to link to my site.  I view that social link 
graph as part of the value of the web.  (I also think it's part of 
Google's secret sauce.)

I'm perfectly fine with both links to my site, or wholesale copies 
/with/ proper credit / attribution.

> There are already articles that come from Wikipedia (with attribution) 
> so I assume that linking to other sites (or lifting articles with 
> permission) would be OK too.

*nod*

> One advantage (for the rest of us, at least) might be that the CHWiki 
> might outlast your site (although if you've asked archive.org to keep 
> tabs on your site, that may not be the case I suppose).

That is entirely possible.  Of course the opposite is also possible too. 
  That's one of the reasons I like to have copies of things on my site, 
with proper attribution to where it's copied from.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Sun Feb 11 16:10:53 2018
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 15:10:53 -0700
Subject: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.
In-Reply-To: <20180211204130.9EF4318C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20180211204130.9EF4318C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <377389bf-063f-69a1-a151-104afc83366e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 02/11/2018 01:41 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
> It wasn't just supposition on my part; as I had mentioned:

I'm not saying (or implying) that it was supposition on anybodies part.

I understand that you do have the opinion that having something on 
CHWiki's site make make it more likely for someone to find something. 
I'd like to think that I understand why too.

I'm saying that I do not subscribe to that belief.

> and I didn't cheat by using, e.g. KT11-B, I tried to use fairly generic 
> things, e.g. 'RK05 disk drive' (third listing), 'PDP-11' (fifth listing), 
> etc.

I didn't figure that you did.

> Admittedly, that's hardly cast-iron proof, but it's a lot beter than just 
> 'it stands to [my] reason'....

Agreed.  It's also more than many will do to defend their stance.

I myself haven't offered anything to defend my stance.  -  Rather I'm 
simply stating that it's /my/ stance, which happens to differ from yours.

> Huh? If you do a Google search for 'computer history wiki', it's the 
> first non-Wikipedia page in the results list.

I figured that you were referring to "Computer History Wiki", but I did 
not want to make any (likely incorrect) assumptions.

> I call it the CHWiki when typing posts for here since I would get tired 
> of typing out the whole long 'Computer History wiki' every time, but I 
> will add that short term to some pages there to help it show up under 
> that name.

That seems perfectly reasonable and like something I would do myself.

> Be my guest!  I've been there, done that, and moved on, because I got 
> tired of stupidity like this:
> 
>   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:History_of_the_Internet/Archive_3#Pictures

10% likely is more likely than 1% likely to post to Wikipedia.

I have no desire to get involved in politics.

I want to write things the way /I/ want to.  Hence why my site is so 
appealing to me.  -  I'm free to meet (or not) the low bar.  ;-)

> Also, the page that started this ("How to enable USB drives in both 
> Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1") might well be ditched from Wikipedia, 
> for a variety of Wiki-bureacratic reasons I won't get into here ('no 
> original research', plus to which it's not really suitable material for 
> a general encyclopaedia).

Another perc with my own site.  As long as "Me", "Myself", and "I" are 
in agreement, things are good.

> Err, no. The first and third _pre-date_ my joining the CHWiki.

ACK

> Why I did the second one as a page on my own site, I don't really recall - 
> maybe because it changed so much in the course of researching it? (It's 
> very convenient - I had the HTML source on disk opened in a browser 
> window, and any time I wanted to see what it currently looked like, 
> I just had to hit the 'refresh' button.)

Yep.

That's what my development cycle is usually like.

10 ssh host
20 cp template newarticle
30 vim newarticle
40 view new article
50 if not happy with new article goto 30
60 logout

> I have done several major things only on the CHWiki, e.g.:
> 
>   http://gunkies.org/wiki/KT11-B_Technical_Manual
> 
> as well as a ton of other stuff.

Thank you for your time and effort.  I'm sure the community appreciates 
what you've done.

> But clearly you aren't interested in moving off your own personal site - 
> which is fine.

It's more that I'm going to publish on my own site /first/.  What 
happens /after/ that, I mostly don't care.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From terry at webweavers.co.nz  Sun Feb 11 16:50:54 2018
From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 11:50:54 +1300
Subject: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.
In-Reply-To: <377389bf-063f-69a1-a151-104afc83366e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <20180211204130.9EF4318C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <377389bf-063f-69a1-a151-104afc83366e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <CACaZng=6eqG_rAqJSv2ThObenJXZ1xirDpWrdETkEmD=nnk3dw@mail.gmail.com>

Given that my article started this discussion, I should add my 2 cents
worth.


I?ll continue to do what I?m doing rather than putting this stuff on CHWiki.
Grant?s motivations and explanations for posting on his site are pretty
much the same as mine.  I document these things largely for myself as an
?activity record?, but I hope others also find them useful and can learn
from what I have done.  A personal style is used,..usually narrative? and
articles usually contain reflections etc.   Where some advice is given, it
is something that has worked for me, and the text does not always cover all
options (or their pros and cons), or contain references.



I tend to share the link around the groups I belong to once the article is
complete in case it's relevant to someone.  Not everyone will read it of
course but I figure that if there is a glaring omission, or something that
is just plain wrong, someone will comment and I'll amend the text.  All the
articles allow comments, so people can add their own
thoughts/corrections/extensions if they want to.



If I had to go to that extent of writing it as a robust, referenced,
refereed, definitive technical article, I probably wouldn?t bother.  I am
not at all diminishing the usefulness of such a document on some aspect of
vintage computing?that stuff is often gold and I applaud people for doing
it.  It?s just I don?t have the time, motivation (or often the deep
expertise in the subject matter) to do it.   For me, vintage computing is a
hobby, and these articles are a creative outlet.  I do enough technical
writing in my real job as an academic in the agricultural sciences.  Maybe
when I'm retired....



 >Maybe it's silly, but I view my site as somewhat of it's own brand
>(as minimal ~> non-existent as it may be) and I use it as my own reference.



It is not silly?and actually, that is quite an honest reflection.  I like
to add articles to ?Tezza?s blog? when I complete an activity.  It keeps
these articles together, people can see what I do, and the kind of things I
am interested it.


Google captures the pages, although it can take a few weeks for them to
appear in searches. I am confident most people could find them with
well-thought out search terms.  The pages are easily linked and shared with
Facebook etc.  Personally I never use wikis etc, when looking for
information.  I always use a search engine.  I usually find what I want.  I
suspect 99% of people do this.  Sometimes the search engine points me to a
wiki of course.



Posting under my own domain does allow a great deal of control, as opposed
to contributing to another site.  It means you can change the style if you
want, add advertisements (I don?t intend to) and add bits and pieces which
may facilitate social media and sharing.  A couple of years ago I revamped
the whole site so it would be mobile friendly.



Like Grant, I have no objection to anyone linking to the site or
amending/adding what I?ve done (with appropriate citation).  We all stand
on the shoulders of others.



Terry (Tez)

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sun Feb 11 16:58:04 2018
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 17:58:04 -0500 (EST)
Subject: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.
Message-ID: <20180211225804.2EB4218C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Terry Stewart

    > If I had to go to that extent of writing it as a robust, referenced,
    > refereed, definitive technical article, I probably wouldn't bother. 

Sure. Neither would I. But how is this relevant to the CHWiki question?

	Noel

From terry at webweavers.co.nz  Sun Feb 11 17:29:08 2018
From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 12:29:08 +1300
Subject: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.
In-Reply-To: <20180211225804.2EB4218C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20180211225804.2EB4218C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CACaZngkMMQxqLvtFt09g_qw5L98TSLOFSNNb9Z2UY5xFKUfSuQ@mail.gmail.com>

 >Sure. Neither would I. But how is this relevant to the CHWiki question?

>> If I had to go to that extent of writing it as a robust, referenced,
>> refereed, definitive technical article, I probably wouldn't bother.

If I was writing an article as a contributor for a reference wiki, I
wouldn't want to contribute anything less than that kind of article.
If the reference wiki is happy to accept blog postings then I'd prefer to
write for my own site, for the reason's outlined.

Terry (Tez)

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sun Feb 11 17:39:18 2018
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 18:39:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: KDF11-B ROM machine-readable source
Message-ID: <20180211233918.99B4818C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

Is the code for the KDF11-B ROMs available in machine-readable source
anywhere? I looked with Google, but couldn't find anything.

Eventually I recalled having seen it in the fiche, which was better than
nothing (disassembling something that size to see how it worked was, ah,
unappealing, shall we say?), but it's still pretty hard to work with (where is
'FOO:' in all these pages), hence the interest in the machine-readable source.


BTW, it appears these ROMs can be used in the BDV11, too - which is nice
because the stock BDV11 code only checks 256 KB, whereas the KDF11-B code does
the whole 4MB (and, IIRC, support more devices, too). I bought a BDV11 which
had EPROM's in it which did more than 256KB, and looking at them, they appear
to contain the KDF11-B code. So I promptly made a bunch of copies and installed
them in place of the stock ones in my other BDV11's! :-)

     Noel

From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Sun Feb 11 18:25:12 2018
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 17:25:12 -0700
Subject: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.
In-Reply-To: <377389bf-063f-69a1-a151-104afc83366e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <20180211204130.9EF4318C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <377389bf-063f-69a1-a151-104afc83366e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <1d776dc4-6f97-e09c-6a8f-ede7f01b5a87@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 2/11/2018 3:10 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:

>> Also, the page that started this ("How to enable USB drives in both 
>> Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1") might well be ditched from Wikipedia, 
>> for a variety of Wiki-bureacratic reasons I won't get into here ('no 
>> original research', plus to which it's not really suitable material 
>> for a general encyclopaedia).
> 
> Another perc with my own site.? As long as "Me", "Myself", and "I" are 
> in agreement, things are good.

That just leaves your shadow.
Is there any thing that really needs to saved from the internet that is 
need for old computers and ancient knowledge regardless of IP rights.
Ben.




From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Sun Feb 11 18:31:03 2018
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 17:31:03 -0700
Subject: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.
In-Reply-To: <1d776dc4-6f97-e09c-6a8f-ede7f01b5a87@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <20180211204130.9EF4318C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <377389bf-063f-69a1-a151-104afc83366e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1d776dc4-6f97-e09c-6a8f-ede7f01b5a87@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <01826f54-667f-6ef0-05e5-845c0507a732@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 02/11/2018 05:25 PM, ben via cctalk wrote:
> That just leaves your shadow.

I'm not sure I follow what you mean.

> Is there any thing that really needs to saved from the internet that is 
> need for old computers and ancient knowledge regardless of IP rights.

I've had plenty of things that I've found and referenced over the years 
that have disappeared from where I knew it was.  As such, I've taken to 
mirroring copies of it on my site, with proper accreditation.  I usually 
add a comment to the effect that I'm hosting a local copy of it in case 
it disappears or moves.  I also provide a contact link at the bottom of 
my pages that anyone can use to comment on said page.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From systems.glitch at gmail.com  Sun Feb 11 18:34:45 2018
From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 19:34:45 -0500
Subject: KDF11-B ROM machine-readable source
In-Reply-To: <20180211233918.99B4818C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20180211233918.99B4818C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAA+dub+rTBd7BOOi1Rew+y17i4FCTPC-rnTxOwrDEABsdgKVcg@mail.gmail.com>

Yep, popular hack, to run the KDF11 ROMs in the BDV11. That's what I've
done for my MINC-23:

http://www.glitchwrks.com/2016/03/19/bdv11-roms

Thanks,
Jonathan

On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 6:39 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Is the code for the KDF11-B ROMs available in machine-readable source
> anywhere? I looked with Google, but couldn't find anything.
>
> Eventually I recalled having seen it in the fiche, which was better than
> nothing (disassembling something that size to see how it worked was, ah,
> unappealing, shall we say?), but it's still pretty hard to work with
> (where is
> 'FOO:' in all these pages), hence the interest in the machine-readable
> source.
>
>
> BTW, it appears these ROMs can be used in the BDV11, too - which is nice
> because the stock BDV11 code only checks 256 KB, whereas the KDF11-B code
> does
> the whole 4MB (and, IIRC, support more devices, too). I bought a BDV11
> which
> had EPROM's in it which did more than 256KB, and looking at them, they
> appear
> to contain the KDF11-B code. So I promptly made a bunch of copies and
> installed
> them in place of the stock ones in my other BDV11's! :-)
>
>      Noel
>

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Feb 11 19:00:20 2018
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 17:00:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.
In-Reply-To: <01826f54-667f-6ef0-05e5-845c0507a732@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <20180211204130.9EF4318C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <377389bf-063f-69a1-a151-104afc83366e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1d776dc4-6f97-e09c-6a8f-ede7f01b5a87@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <01826f54-667f-6ef0-05e5-845c0507a732@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802111650140.32166@shell.lmi.net>

>> Is there any thing that really needs to saved from the internet that is 
>> need for old computers and ancient knowledge regardless of IP rights.

>> That just leaves your shadow.

> I'm not sure I follow what you mean.

Only the shadow knows.

> I've had plenty of things that I've found and referenced over the years that 
> have disappeared from where I knew it was.  As such, I've taken to mirroring 
> copies of it on my site, with proper accreditation.  I usually add a comment 
> to the effect that I'm hosting a local copy of it in case it disappears or 
> moves.  I also provide a contact link at the bottom of my pages that anyone 
> can use to comment on said page.

The internet is written in sand.
The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones.


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sun Feb 11 19:33:06 2018
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 20:33:06 -0500 (EST)
Subject: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.
Message-ID: <20180212013306.1F37818C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Grant Taylor

    > I've had plenty of things that I've found and referenced over the years
    > that have disappeared from where I knew it was.

Ah, bit rot - the scourge of the Web. Thank G-d for the Internet Archive!

Although at least one major list archive had been marked to exclude robots,
or something, because even though I had 'good at one point URLs', the IA
contained... zip.

    > I've taken to mirroring copies of it on my site, with proper
    > accreditation. 

Yes:

  http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/tech/archives.html#Personal

and of course also:

  http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/cctalk/

(need to add a link to that one on my home page...)

	Noel

From aek at bitsavers.org  Sun Feb 11 21:12:28 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 19:12:28 -0800
Subject: HP 9816 CP/M-68K
In-Reply-To: <06b4bfee-c563-16c2-eb8f-6a32dec43877@bitsavers.org>
References: <06b4bfee-c563-16c2-eb8f-6a32dec43877@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <9661eb78-c52e-5b56-5eaa-f94326f584d2@bitsavers.org>

got it running this afternoon
it won't run on a 9000/216 with 256k, adding a 1meg card made it happy (ie. programs load and run)
still need to figure out why B: isn't working
the memory test with 1.25mb is sloooow


also, I may have discovered a bug in the HcX disk analysis tool
the track map really confused by the .td0 images I created, though they appear to work
when written to a new disk


On 2/9/18 12:05 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> floppies recovered and uploaded to http://bitsavers.org/bits/HP/HP_9000/cpm-68k
> 
> I'm pretty sure this will only work in a 9121 single-sided drive but I'll be trying
> to boot it soon
> 
> 


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Sun Feb 11 21:35:45 2018
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 19:35:45 -0800
Subject: HP 9816 CP/M-68K
In-Reply-To: <9661eb78-c52e-5b56-5eaa-f94326f584d2@bitsavers.org>
References: <06b4bfee-c563-16c2-eb8f-6a32dec43877@bitsavers.org>
 <9661eb78-c52e-5b56-5eaa-f94326f584d2@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwJWuGwd75tTdVUhjCj6gKqjnssiK7Z7acAXovheFD9HwA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 7:12 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> also, I may have discovered a bug in the HcX disk analysis tool
> the track map really confused by the .td0 images I created, though they appear to work
> when written to a new disk

Any technical reason you used Teledisk instead of ImageDisk? Can
Teledisk do something with these disks that ImageDisk cannot?

From shadoooo at gmail.com  Sun Feb 11 14:30:29 2018
From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 21:30:29 +0100
Subject: DECwriterIV/LA100s and large DEC
In-Reply-To: <CAM4zSsXPi7UsHOezACkw2T72BV1-ZbKXTrLjB+1iGpLpxQ_jEQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM4zSsXPi7UsHOezACkw2T72BV1-ZbKXTrLjB+1iGpLpxQ_jEQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM4zSsUV8d_yYSPNO74p4MQ6WWo7JYmqLYKH3hJ+RACHS-Z4iQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Adrian,
do you think that you could ship one of the LA100-CA to Italy?

Thanks
Andrea

From wilson at dbit.com  Mon Feb 12 00:12:22 2018
From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 01:12:22 -0500
Subject: Reading a PDP-11 RL02: Anyone Around the U.S. West Coast?
In-Reply-To: <20180211205848.F1AF318C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20180211205848.F1AF318C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20180212061222.GA29333@dbit.dbit.com>

On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 03:58:48PM -0500, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
>    > From: Bill Degnan
>
>    > What is the OS of the disks, what system was this disk used to
>    > create/save files to the RL02?
>
>Doesn't really matter, does it, as long as the bits can all be read off the
>pack into a file?

Slight gotcha with RLs:  the RT-11 DL(X).SYS driver maintains a bad-block
replacement list at the end of block 1, and uses it to remap the blocks while
it's reading.  Hilarity ensues if you use RT to read a non-RT disk with
junk in that area (or even an RT one if it had bad blocks, since in the
copy, the data have been moved from the remapped blocks to the original
ones so you'd need to nuke the remapping table or RT will try to access
the wrong blocks in the future).  So reading a non-RT RL01/02 (or RK06/07)
disk with .READ(x) isn't safe -- you have to use the .SPFUN call which
bypasses the mapping.  I have a Kermit server which does this.

>(And
>somewhere I used to have a program to read DOS disks, but I just looked and
>couldn't find it.)

My PUTR.COM utility can do it, but needs MS-DOS, or an emulation.  Yes I
should finish the portable C rewrite I started ... one of these years.

John Wilson
D Bit

From sop00000h at scotnet.co.uk  Mon Feb 12 05:21:53 2018
From: sop00000h at scotnet.co.uk (sop00000h)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 11:21:53 +0000
Subject: PDP 11/05 - looking for help - looking for Jorg Hoppe?
Message-ID: <AFE7CD53-A1D1-46D2-9548-38769C9BB989@scotnet.co.uk>

Jorg Hoppe:

I am the proud owner of an old pdp11/05.  I does not have a M9970 (nor can I find one).  So I cant do 20ma/rs232 output.  I read in somebodies note about jumpers @W1 and W2 on the M7261F that I have.  Apparently cutting one of these disables the onboard uart and will allow me to put in a serial card.  I cant find the jumpers.  Nor can I find a print set.  Any suggestions?

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Feb 12 06:03:06 2018
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 07:03:06 -0500 (EST)
Subject: PDP 11/05 - looking for help
Message-ID: <20180212120306.761B818C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: sop00000h

    > I read in somebodies note about jumpers @W1 and W2 on the M7261F that I
    > have. Apparently cutting one of these disables the onboard uart and
    > will allow me to put in a serial card.

Yes, W1. And it's not cutting, it's inserting.

    > I cant find the jumpers.

They aren't labeled, which does not help!

With the board component face up, and the contact fingers at the bottome, W1
is to the right of E69, and W2 is to the right of E73.

    > Nor can I find a print set. Any suggestions?

Of the 4 known sets of drawings for the -11/05, 3 are available online. This
page:

  http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11/05

gives the names, which should help you locate them (all are in BitSavers,
IIRC).

	Noel

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Feb 12 06:23:26 2018
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 07:23:26 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Duplicate PDP-11 fiche FTGH
Message-ID: <20180212122326.0C7B718C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

So I bought some of those fiche that that eBay seller had, for publications I
couldn't locate (either physical, or online), but now that I have a complete
set of fische, the duplicates aren't any use. So, if anyone has a use for
them, let me know, FTGH:

They are:

  BA11-N Tech Manual
  BA11-N User's Guide
  DC11 Tech Manual
  DEUNA Tech Manual
  DR11-B Maint Manual
  FP11-B Maint Manual
  KB11-A,D Maint Manual
  KD11-D Maint Manual
  KK11-A Tech Manual

(Please don't say "I'll take them all", I'd like to 'spread the wealth' around
a bit... :-)

  Noel

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Mon Feb 12 06:43:35 2018
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 12:43:35 -0000
Subject: PDP 11/05 - looking for help - looking for Jorg Hoppe?
In-Reply-To: <AFE7CD53-A1D1-46D2-9548-38769C9BB989@scotnet.co.uk>
References: <AFE7CD53-A1D1-46D2-9548-38769C9BB989@scotnet.co.uk>
Message-ID: <005d01d3a3ff$19e89fe0$4db9dfa0$@gmail.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of sop00000h
> via cctalk
> Sent: 12 February 2018 11:22
> To: cctech at classiccmp.org
> Subject: PDP 11/05 - looking for help - looking for Jorg Hoppe?
> 
> Jorg Hoppe:
> 
> I am the proud owner of an old pdp11/05.  I does not have a M9970 (nor can
I
> find one).  So I cant do 20ma/rs232 output.  I read in somebodies note
about
> jumpers @W1 and W2 on the M7261F that I have.  Apparently cutting one of
> these disables the onboard uart and will allow me to put in a serial card.
I
> cant find the jumpers.  Nor can I find a print set.  Any suggestions?

Its not a slim line 11/505 is it, in which case you don't appear to need the
M9970.
If its not would it be possible to make an M9970. They appear to be just
passive 

http://www.vintagecomputer.net/digital/pdp11-05/dec_M9970_BERG_BACKPLANE_CON
NECTOR.JPG

Or pick up the signals from the wire wrap as described here :-

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/vmsnet.pdp-11/_FavYTL-5Bg

you can pick-up the signals fron the backplane, with a wire-wrap
tool.
send data+ 20ma-tty FE2
sent data- 20ma-tty FJ2
sent data ttl-level DF1
Gnd on DC2 and DT1
rec data+ 20ma-tty FN1 
rec data- 20ma-tty FP1
rec data ttl-level FM1
Gnd on FC2 and FT1

Hope this helps. Just what I found by googling as I was curious as to what
an M9970 was

Dave
 


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Feb 12 07:04:41 2018
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 08:04:41 -0500 (EST)
Subject: PDP 11/05 - looking for help
Message-ID: <20180212130441.5BD6B18C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Dave Wade

    > Or pick up the signals from the wire wrap

I think the OP's approach - disable the on-board console - is probably best:
that port is limited to 2400 baud, and with DL11's being a dime a dozen (OK,
I exaggerate a bit, but only slightly - they're available for about $25)...
And that way you get RS-232 too, and don't have to deal with 20mA - you can
plug straight into a PC.

	Noel

From ed at groenenberg.net  Mon Feb 12 06:56:02 2018
From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 13:56:02 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Available : 2 Sun caddies / disk brackets
Message-ID: <46046.10.10.10.2.1518440162.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net>


For the cost of postage: 2 Sun brackets, part no 330-1806

One is made of clear plastic, the other is purple.
They are located in the Netherlands.

Regards,

Ed
--
Ik email, dus ik besta.





From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Feb 12 11:58:15 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 09:58:15 -0800
Subject: HP 9816 CP/M-68K
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwJWuGwd75tTdVUhjCj6gKqjnssiK7Z7acAXovheFD9HwA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <06b4bfee-c563-16c2-eb8f-6a32dec43877@bitsavers.org>
 <9661eb78-c52e-5b56-5eaa-f94326f584d2@bitsavers.org>
 <CAM2UOwJWuGwd75tTdVUhjCj6gKqjnssiK7Z7acAXovheFD9HwA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2c59213e-3fcb-5ff4-e009-94edb0fa34be@bitsavers.org>



On 2/11/18 7:35 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote:

> Any technical reason you used Teledisk instead of ImageDisk? Can
> Teledisk do something with these disks that ImageDisk cannot?
> 

Imagedisk can't handle mixed sector sizes on a track.


From mike_t_norris at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 12 12:37:19 2018
From: mike_t_norris at hotmail.com (Mike Norris)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 18:37:19 +0000
Subject: Microfiches on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <CABr82S+RtBeetceSPNWxWHO0YFo=r8ORVxGk7ozGxTLiK8pVsA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20180210230411.B734818C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>,
 <CABr82S+RtBeetceSPNWxWHO0YFo=r8ORVxGk7ozGxTLiK8pVsA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <HE1P194MB0249028F977848E1C9A59138AAF70@HE1P194MB0249.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Hi Mattis at al,


> I cannot find the DW750 Technical manual online for example.  But someone
> has bought that fiche now.  Of course there are plenty of manuals for
> various printers and other esoteric devices which might be of less
> interest.There is a "DEC GT41/GT43 Graphic Display Terminal Install &
> Maintenance Manual" for which I cannot find any traces of online. What is
> GT41/GT43 BTW?

I have three boxes of fiche here, looking for a new home, hopefully to someone who won't sell them on ebay, but can use them in their hobby!

I just looked for a few of the items raised, there is a manual for the GT41/43 although there 3 fiches for the GT40 so it must have been quite a beast to write code for, I suspect there were some updated command for the GT41/43 although never saw one of these myself.
There is also the Tech Dec. for the DW750.
Can't find anything for the H7260 which I know someone was trying to track down.

I did try to scan the fiche but without any real success!

Anyway I probably have the reader as well but will need to find that, I am in the UK and obviously the fiche are fairly heavy so it would be expensive to ship, but if anyone is interested please let me know, I can check through if there is something you really need and can provide photographs, maybe able to screen scrape of the fiche reader when I find if.

Regards Mike Norris



From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Feb 12 12:45:29 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 10:45:29 -0800
Subject: Microfiches on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <HE1P194MB0249028F977848E1C9A59138AAF70@HE1P194MB0249.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <20180210230411.B734818C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CABr82S+RtBeetceSPNWxWHO0YFo=r8ORVxGk7ozGxTLiK8pVsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1P194MB0249028F977848E1C9A59138AAF70@HE1P194MB0249.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <33909225-244a-7410-7b8f-2304a35b562d@bitsavers.org>



On 2/12/18 10:37 AM, Mike Norris via cctalk wrote:

> I suspect there were some updated command for the GT41/43 although never saw one of these myself.

The VT-11 display processor stayed exactly the same, they just changed the processor it went into.

There are brochures for the GT-44 and 46 on bitsavers
http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/graphics/VT11


From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Feb 12 12:48:48 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 10:48:48 -0800
Subject: Microfiches on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <HE1P194MB0249028F977848E1C9A59138AAF70@HE1P194MB0249.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <20180210230411.B734818C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CABr82S+RtBeetceSPNWxWHO0YFo=r8ORVxGk7ozGxTLiK8pVsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1P194MB0249028F977848E1C9A59138AAF70@HE1P194MB0249.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <397d3bb3-2927-c390-39da-252e83a187df@bitsavers.org>



On 2/12/18 10:37 AM, Mike Norris via cctalk wrote:
> Hi Mattis at al,
> 
> 
>What is
>> GT41/GT43 BTW?

we have two pictures in the collection
http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102761881
http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102761773

I'll pull them to see if they look any different



From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Feb 12 13:06:41 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 11:06:41 -0800
Subject: Microfiches on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <397d3bb3-2927-c390-39da-252e83a187df@bitsavers.org>
References: <20180210230411.B734818C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CABr82S+RtBeetceSPNWxWHO0YFo=r8ORVxGk7ozGxTLiK8pVsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1P194MB0249028F977848E1C9A59138AAF70@HE1P194MB0249.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <397d3bb3-2927-c390-39da-252e83a187df@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <723e2d05-9667-108b-5c4c-bbe6960f5fcc@bitsavers.org>

GT41 is a GT-40 with a desktop 11/04 chassis
GT43 is a diskless GT-46 (11/34 with two RK05s) in an H960

On 2/12/18 10:48 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> 

>>> GT41/GT43 BTW?


From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Feb 12 13:20:09 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 11:20:09 -0800
Subject: Microfiches on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <723e2d05-9667-108b-5c4c-bbe6960f5fcc@bitsavers.org>
References: <20180210230411.B734818C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CABr82S+RtBeetceSPNWxWHO0YFo=r8ORVxGk7ozGxTLiK8pVsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1P194MB0249028F977848E1C9A59138AAF70@HE1P194MB0249.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
 <397d3bb3-2927-c390-39da-252e83a187df@bitsavers.org>
 <723e2d05-9667-108b-5c4c-bbe6960f5fcc@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <e694c57c-4519-e3b8-b487-e4929cb004f5@bitsavers.org>



On 2/12/18 11:06 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> GT41 is a GT-40 with a desktop 11/04 chassis

I hadn't seen one before, so some pics are up now under
http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/graphics/pictures


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Mon Feb 12 13:39:08 2018
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 11:39:08 -0800
Subject: HP 9816 CP/M-68K
In-Reply-To: <2c59213e-3fcb-5ff4-e009-94edb0fa34be@bitsavers.org>
References: <06b4bfee-c563-16c2-eb8f-6a32dec43877@bitsavers.org>
 <9661eb78-c52e-5b56-5eaa-f94326f584d2@bitsavers.org>
 <CAM2UOwJWuGwd75tTdVUhjCj6gKqjnssiK7Z7acAXovheFD9HwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2c59213e-3fcb-5ff4-e009-94edb0fa34be@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwLH8bf1aPn2TVVVszKUNbr1LU9T-vYOJqSG+8MONO9DOg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:58 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> Any technical reason you used Teledisk instead of ImageDisk? Can
>> Teledisk do something with these disks that ImageDisk cannot?
>>
>
> Imagedisk can't handle mixed sector sizes on a track.

I had forgotten about that. I vaguely remember running into that issue
working with some other HP disks, or .TDO images of HP disks. I
rebuilt a modified version of one of the ImageDisk tools from the
source code to work around the issue at the time. I don't remember the
details now.

Just found some notes on this from 5 years ago. At the time it was an
issue with TD02IMD.COM. For example TD02IMD.COM chokes on this disk
image with the "Cannot do mixed sector size within track" error:
http://www.hpmuseum.net/software/WORDSR80.TD0

I solved that at the time by modifying TD02IMD.COM to allow it to
simply discard the other sized sectors, which after taking a look
didn't appear to be necessary.

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Feb 12 14:23:43 2018
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 12:23:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: HP 9816 CP/M-68K
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwLH8bf1aPn2TVVVszKUNbr1LU9T-vYOJqSG+8MONO9DOg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <06b4bfee-c563-16c2-eb8f-6a32dec43877@bitsavers.org>
 <9661eb78-c52e-5b56-5eaa-f94326f584d2@bitsavers.org>
 <CAM2UOwJWuGwd75tTdVUhjCj6gKqjnssiK7Z7acAXovheFD9HwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2c59213e-3fcb-5ff4-e009-94edb0fa34be@bitsavers.org>
 <CAM2UOwLH8bf1aPn2TVVVszKUNbr1LU9T-vYOJqSG+8MONO9DOg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802121218520.3967@shell.lmi.net>

> Imagedisk can't handle mixed sector sizes on a track.

Reading or writing multiple sized sectors can be done with multiple 
passes.

But, I don't know how to FORMAT a track with multiple sector sizes with 
NEC 765 type controller.  Not as hard with WD style controllers.


With multiple sector sizes, can squeeze 440K on a "360K" disk.



From spacewar at gmail.com  Mon Feb 12 14:34:28 2018
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 13:34:28 -0700
Subject: HP 9816 CP/M-68K
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802121218520.3967@shell.lmi.net>
References: <06b4bfee-c563-16c2-eb8f-6a32dec43877@bitsavers.org>
 <9661eb78-c52e-5b56-5eaa-f94326f584d2@bitsavers.org>
 <CAM2UOwJWuGwd75tTdVUhjCj6gKqjnssiK7Z7acAXovheFD9HwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2c59213e-3fcb-5ff4-e009-94edb0fa34be@bitsavers.org>
 <CAM2UOwLH8bf1aPn2TVVVszKUNbr1LU9T-vYOJqSG+8MONO9DOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802121218520.3967@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTSKT_+oxZta0ugKvtF+irV9or559gD1KaRkLpfCx2L49Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 1:23 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Reading or writing multiple sized sectors can be done with multiple passes.
> But, I don't know how to FORMAT a track with multiple sector sizes with
> NEC 765 type controller.  Not as hard with WD style controllers.
> With multiple sector sizes, can squeeze 440K on a "360K" disk.
>

Format a track with the sector size that occurs later on the track, with
dummy sectors ahead of them and gap sizes selected to position them
properly.
Start formatting with the sector size for the earlier sectors. Abort the
format at the time when the desired number of sectors have been written.

I'm not sure whether there's any way to abort a track format on a PC. I did
it on a machine that had control over the ?PD765 reset pin.

Definitely much easier with the WD style controllers.

It is possible to format disks on an NEC style controller with a format
that cannot be created on a WD style controller, for instance using
particular track or sector numbers above 0xf0, which are specially
interpreted by the WD during a track write.

From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Feb 12 14:37:06 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 12:37:06 -0800
Subject: HP 9816 CP/M-68K
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802121218520.3967@shell.lmi.net>
References: <06b4bfee-c563-16c2-eb8f-6a32dec43877@bitsavers.org>
 <9661eb78-c52e-5b56-5eaa-f94326f584d2@bitsavers.org>
 <CAM2UOwJWuGwd75tTdVUhjCj6gKqjnssiK7Z7acAXovheFD9HwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2c59213e-3fcb-5ff4-e009-94edb0fa34be@bitsavers.org>
 <CAM2UOwLH8bf1aPn2TVVVszKUNbr1LU9T-vYOJqSG+8MONO9DOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802121218520.3967@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <8f5c63ab-c220-ff1b-aaeb-0b79a29e71c1@bitsavers.org>



On 2/12/18 12:23 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>> Imagedisk can't handle mixed sector sizes on a track.
> 
> Reading or writing multiple sized sectors can be done with multiple passes.

I don't believe the .imd image format supports it either, so I just found another
tool that could handle the job.

I really need to look at getting the Supercard Pro I bought set up so I can do lower-level imaging



From tsg at bonedaddy.net  Mon Feb 12 14:37:12 2018
From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 15:37:12 -0500
Subject: Microfiches on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <HE1P194MB0249028F977848E1C9A59138AAF70@HE1P194MB0249.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <20180210230411.B734818C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CABr82S+RtBeetceSPNWxWHO0YFo=r8ORVxGk7ozGxTLiK8pVsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1P194MB0249028F977848E1C9A59138AAF70@HE1P194MB0249.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <acb3a9e1-9268-1dbb-106e-bf2661d2bcb9@bonedaddy.net>

Hi Mike,

I'm interested though I'm not in the UK.? I'm happy to pay shipping though.

I won't be selling them on eBay (or anywhere else) but using them for 
help working on my DEC collection.

Thank you!

Todd


On 2/12/2018 1:37 PM, Mike Norris via cctalk wrote:
> Hi Mattis at al,
>
>
>> I cannot find the DW750 Technical manual online for example.  But someone
>> has bought that fiche now.  Of course there are plenty of manuals for
>> various printers and other esoteric devices which might be of less
>> interest.There is a "DEC GT41/GT43 Graphic Display Terminal Install &
>> Maintenance Manual" for which I cannot find any traces of online. What is
>> GT41/GT43 BTW?
> I have three boxes of fiche here, looking for a new home, hopefully to someone who won't sell them on ebay, but can use them in their hobby!
>
> I just looked for a few of the items raised, there is a manual for the GT41/43 although there 3 fiches for the GT40 so it must have been quite a beast to write code for, I suspect there were some updated command for the GT41/43 although never saw one of these myself.
> There is also the Tech Dec. for the DW750.
> Can't find anything for the H7260 which I know someone was trying to track down.
>
> I did try to scan the fiche but without any real success!
>
> Anyway I probably have the reader as well but will need to find that, I am in the UK and obviously the fiche are fairly heavy so it would be expensive to ship, but if anyone is interested please let me know, I can check through if there is something you really need and can provide photographs, maybe able to screen scrape of the fiche reader when I find if.
>
> Regards Mike Norris
>
>


From mark.darvill at mac.com  Mon Feb 12 14:42:43 2018
From: mark.darvill at mac.com (Mark Darvill)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 20:42:43 +0000
Subject: Microfiches on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <HE1P194MB0249028F977848E1C9A59138AAF70@HE1P194MB0249.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <20180210230411.B734818C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CABr82S+RtBeetceSPNWxWHO0YFo=r8ORVxGk7ozGxTLiK8pVsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <HE1P194MB0249028F977848E1C9A59138AAF70@HE1P194MB0249.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <9BEF9425-4966-432C-9A93-85AC437BA79B@mac.com>

Hi Mike,

In the UK and used to have these sets when I worked at DEC but had to give them back!

Can pick up.

Please let me know.

Mark


Sent from my iPhone

> On 12 Feb 2018, at 18:37, Mike Norris via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi Mattis at al,
> 
> 
>> I cannot find the DW750 Technical manual online for example.  But someone
>> has bought that fiche now.  Of course there are plenty of manuals for
>> various printers and other esoteric devices which might be of less
>> interest.There is a "DEC GT41/GT43 Graphic Display Terminal Install &
>> Maintenance Manual" for which I cannot find any traces of online. What is
>> GT41/GT43 BTW?
> 
> I have three boxes of fiche here, looking for a new home, hopefully to someone who won't sell them on ebay, but can use them in their hobby!
> 
> I just looked for a few of the items raised, there is a manual for the GT41/43 although there 3 fiches for the GT40 so it must have been quite a beast to write code for, I suspect there were some updated command for the GT41/43 although never saw one of these myself.
> There is also the Tech Dec. for the DW750.
> Can't find anything for the H7260 which I know someone was trying to track down.
> 
> I did try to scan the fiche but without any real success!
> 
> Anyway I probably have the reader as well but will need to find that, I am in the UK and obviously the fiche are fairly heavy so it would be expensive to ship, but if anyone is interested please let me know, I can check through if there is something you really need and can provide photographs, maybe able to screen scrape of the fiche reader when I find if.
> 
> Regards Mike Norris
> 
> 

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Mon Feb 12 14:52:16 2018
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 12:52:16 -0800
Subject: HP 9816 CP/M-68K
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTSKT_+oxZta0ugKvtF+irV9or559gD1KaRkLpfCx2L49Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <06b4bfee-c563-16c2-eb8f-6a32dec43877@bitsavers.org>
 <9661eb78-c52e-5b56-5eaa-f94326f584d2@bitsavers.org>
 <CAM2UOwJWuGwd75tTdVUhjCj6gKqjnssiK7Z7acAXovheFD9HwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2c59213e-3fcb-5ff4-e009-94edb0fa34be@bitsavers.org>
 <CAM2UOwLH8bf1aPn2TVVVszKUNbr1LU9T-vYOJqSG+8MONO9DOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802121218520.3967@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAFrGgTSKT_+oxZta0ugKvtF+irV9or559gD1KaRkLpfCx2L49Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwLjVgzuAhMyBxyZxHy2dZ3rUAvzQb7sqSQz-AFUTjiO7w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 12:34 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Format a track with the sector size that occurs later on the track, with
> dummy sectors ahead of them and gap sizes selected to position them
> properly.
> Start formatting with the sector size for the earlier sectors. Abort the
> format at the time when the desired number of sectors have been written.
>
> I'm not sure whether there's any way to abort a track format on a PC. I did
> it on a machine that had control over the ?PD765 reset pin.
>

Bit 2 of the Digital-Output Register at 0x3F2 resets the FDC when the
bit is clear.

I used that on my 5150 back in the day when I bought it new to
reproduce a copy protected disk that used sectors with bad CRCs as one
of its protection mechanisms. Feed the sector data a byte at a time to
the FDC in PIO mode so that the timing is controlled, then toggle the
FDC reset bit in the DOR just at the time when the CRC is being
written.

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Feb 12 15:14:56 2018
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 13:14:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: HP 9816 CP/M-68K
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTSKT_+oxZta0ugKvtF+irV9or559gD1KaRkLpfCx2L49Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <06b4bfee-c563-16c2-eb8f-6a32dec43877@bitsavers.org>
 <9661eb78-c52e-5b56-5eaa-f94326f584d2@bitsavers.org>
 <CAM2UOwJWuGwd75tTdVUhjCj6gKqjnssiK7Z7acAXovheFD9HwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2c59213e-3fcb-5ff4-e009-94edb0fa34be@bitsavers.org>
 <CAM2UOwLH8bf1aPn2TVVVszKUNbr1LU9T-vYOJqSG+8MONO9DOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802121218520.3967@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAFrGgTSKT_+oxZta0ugKvtF+irV9or559gD1KaRkLpfCx2L49Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802121303380.3967@shell.lmi.net>

>> But, I don't know how to FORMAT a track with multiple sector sizes with
>> NEC 765 type controller.  Not as hard with WD style controllers.

On Mon, 12 Feb 2018, Eric Smith wrote:
> Format a track with the sector size that occurs later on the track, with
> dummy sectors ahead of them and gap sizes selected to position them
> properly.
> Start formatting with the sector size for the earlier sectors. Abort the
> format at the time when the desired number of sectors have been written.
> I'm not sure whether there's any way to abort a track format on a PC. I did
> it on a machine that had control over the ??PD765 reset pin.

Thank you!

> Definitely much easier with the WD style controllers.
> It is possible to format disks on an NEC style controller with a format
> that cannot be created on a WD style controller, for instance using
> particular track or sector numbers above 0xf0, which are specially
> interpreted by the WD during a track write.

I still feel that "multiple sector read/write" on NEC765 is less useful 
than "track read/write" of WD 179x.
In spite of WD's handling of what it interprets as address marks, etc.
'Course OUR needs are not always the same as the general public's, . . .


Is there any truth to the rumors that the choices of Data Address Marks 
(DAM-it!) on TRS80 was due to a misprinted or misread data sheet?
And that Tandy wasn't a big enough player for WD to consider a variant of 
the 179X that could support those DAMs?
We were not amused that the Model 3 could not write a true model 1 disk, 
and that Doubler, etc. had to contain BOTH 177x and 179x chips!

From mike_t_norris at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 12 15:16:49 2018
From: mike_t_norris at hotmail.com (Mike Norris)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 21:16:49 +0000
Subject: Microfiches on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <HE1P194MB0249028F977848E1C9A59138AAF70@HE1P194MB0249.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <20180210230411.B734818C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>,
 <CABr82S+RtBeetceSPNWxWHO0YFo=r8ORVxGk7ozGxTLiK8pVsA@mail.gmail.com>,
 <HE1P194MB0249028F977848E1C9A59138AAF70@HE1P194MB0249.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
Message-ID: <HE1P194MB02490F88E84D6D6778933F7CAAF70@HE1P194MB0249.EURP194.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Hi Everyone,


Thanks for the responses and to Al for explaining the GT41/43 along with images of the same, it certainly looked like an impressive bit of kit for the time.


On the fiche front I have had a number of responses to take them, so now have to sort out the details with those involved, the 'Dalby Datomuseum' being the first to reply, with two reserves in hand.

So I am sorry if you missed the post, but need to advise you not to reply in order to save everyone's time.
Hopefully I will find more stuff as I clear out!

Regards Mike Norris




From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Feb 12 15:18:29 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 13:18:29 -0800
Subject: HP 9816 CP/M-68K
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802121218520.3967@shell.lmi.net>
References: <06b4bfee-c563-16c2-eb8f-6a32dec43877@bitsavers.org>
 <9661eb78-c52e-5b56-5eaa-f94326f584d2@bitsavers.org>
 <CAM2UOwJWuGwd75tTdVUhjCj6gKqjnssiK7Z7acAXovheFD9HwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2c59213e-3fcb-5ff4-e009-94edb0fa34be@bitsavers.org>
 <CAM2UOwLH8bf1aPn2TVVVszKUNbr1LU9T-vYOJqSG+8MONO9DOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802121218520.3967@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <9c35575b-db2d-8783-f97b-e2f11877d341@sydex.com>

On 02/12/2018 12:23 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>> Imagedisk can't handle mixed sector sizes on a track.
> 
> Reading or writing multiple sized sectors can be done with multiple passes.
> 
> But, I don't know how to FORMAT a track with multiple sector sizes with
> NEC 765 type controller.? Not as hard with WD style controllers.

It's actually not too difficult.  There were DOS utilities that could,
for example, copy IBM XDF format.

The trick is that on the 765 and its ilk, the FORMAT command writes
sector headers according to the length parameter in the *command*,
whereas the WRITE SECTOR command writes things out according to the
length in the sector ID header.

So, for example, you can specify that, say, 18 256 byte sectors are to
be formatted, but each ID header would have a code of 3 or 1, indicating
that the data part of the sector is 1024 or 256 bytes.  Pick the
appropriate sectors to write and you'll clobber any of the 256 byte ones
that fall under the 1024 byte shadow of the larger ones.

It does take a bit of planning, but it does work.

In fact, this is a handy way to "wipe" a track free of any ID
information at all.  Just format up a couple of sectors with a length
code of 6 or 7 and then write them.  They'll eat their own heads,
ignoring the index.

FWIW,
Chuck


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Feb 12 15:55:36 2018
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 13:55:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: HP 9816 CP/M-68K
In-Reply-To: <9c35575b-db2d-8783-f97b-e2f11877d341@sydex.com>
References: <06b4bfee-c563-16c2-eb8f-6a32dec43877@bitsavers.org>
 <9661eb78-c52e-5b56-5eaa-f94326f584d2@bitsavers.org>
 <CAM2UOwJWuGwd75tTdVUhjCj6gKqjnssiK7Z7acAXovheFD9HwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2c59213e-3fcb-5ff4-e009-94edb0fa34be@bitsavers.org>
 <CAM2UOwLH8bf1aPn2TVVVszKUNbr1LU9T-vYOJqSG+8MONO9DOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802121218520.3967@shell.lmi.net>
 <9c35575b-db2d-8783-f97b-e2f11877d341@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802121349330.3967@shell.lmi.net>

>> But, I don't know how to FORMAT a track with multiple sector sizes with
>> NEC 765 type controller.? Not as hard with WD style controllers.

On Mon, 12 Feb 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> It's actually not too difficult.  There were DOS utilities that could,
> for example, copy IBM XDF format.
> The trick is that on the 765 and its ilk, the FORMAT command writes
> sector headers according to the length parameter in the *command*,
> whereas the WRITE SECTOR command writes things out according to the
> length in the sector ID header.

Thank you!
Although these days, it's just curiousity and nostalgia.

I learn great new [currently useless to me] fun stuff on this list every 
day.

20+ years ago, when I needed to, after a number of failed attempts,
I used double sided (and 96tpi) drives in a TRS80 model 3,
and/or "COPY"ed a disk using a flux transition board.


From phil at ultimate.com  Mon Feb 12 15:59:35 2018
From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 16:59:35 -0500
Subject: Large HP plotter on the curb in Arlington, MA
Message-ID: <201802122159.w1CLxZ8G089393@ultimate.com>

Spotted next to driveway of 7 Central St, Arlington MA

Model C6075A.
Attached sign says "needs new print head"

https://h10057.www1.hp.com/ecomcat/hpcatalog/specs/provisioner/05/C6075A.htm
is copyright 2006, so perhaps not "classic"
and says:
	"HP Designjet 1055cm Printer"
	(tho 1055mm seems more likely to me)

Tomorrow (13th) is trash day, current forecast is 0% chance of
precipitation today and tomorrow.  You'll need a van or a pickup
truck, it's larger than I could drag home, and I've no place to put
it.


From healyzh at avanthar.com  Mon Feb 12 16:07:29 2018
From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 14:07:29 -0800
Subject: Large HP plotter on the curb in Arlington, MA
In-Reply-To: <201802122159.w1CLxZ8G089393@ultimate.com>
References: <201802122159.w1CLxZ8G089393@ultimate.com>
Message-ID: <2265F56D-D2E5-47B5-9896-AF2A7C354E78@avanthar.com>

The model should be ?1055CM".  I used to support a bunch of these.  Not a bad plotter.  Definitely preferred them to the Versatec plotters they replaced.  I suspect HP won?t support it.  I ran into that problem with an earlier model, then to my surprise I found a local outfit that would repair them for a third of what HP had been charging us.  

No clue what the ink availability is these days.  The ink carts aren?t cheap, and if it has issues with the print head, someone might have been running old ink through it.

Zane




> On Feb 12, 2018, at 1:59 PM, Phil Budne via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Spotted next to driveway of 7 Central St, Arlington MA
> 
> Model C6075A.
> Attached sign says "needs new print head"
> 
> https://h10057.www1.hp.com/ecomcat/hpcatalog/specs/provisioner/05/C6075A.htm
> is copyright 2006, so perhaps not "classic"
> and says:
> 	"HP Designjet 1055cm Printer"
> 	(tho 1055mm seems more likely to me)
> 
> Tomorrow (13th) is trash day, current forecast is 0% chance of
> precipitation today and tomorrow.  You'll need a van or a pickup
> truck, it's larger than I could drag home, and I've no place to put
> it.
> 


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Feb 12 16:08:42 2018
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 14:08:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Large HP plotter on the curb in Arlington, MA
In-Reply-To: <201802122159.w1CLxZ8G089393@ultimate.com>
References: <201802122159.w1CLxZ8G089393@ultimate.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802121405070.3967@shell.lmi.net>

On Mon, 12 Feb 2018, Phil Budne via cctalk wrote:
> Spotted next to driveway of 7 Central St, Arlington MA
> Model C6075A.
> Attached sign says "needs new print head"

actually not at all expensive

> https://h10057.www1.hp.com/ecomcat/hpcatalog/specs/provisioner/05/C6075A.htm
> is copyright 2006, so perhaps not "classic"
> and says:
> 	"HP Designjet 1055cm Printer"
> 	(tho 1055mm seems more likely to me)

HP does, indeed, call it "1055CM".
If that were the size, rather than model number, then you could print 
billboards!  What does a roll of 10 meter wide paper cost?

> Tomorrow (13th) is trash day, current forecast is 0% chance of
> precipitation today and tomorrow.  You'll need a van or a pickup
> truck, it's larger than I could drag home, and I've no place to put
> it.

I could not be there before the trash trucks.
and I've no place to put it  :-(

From ian.finder at gmail.com  Mon Feb 12 16:17:23 2018
From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 14:17:23 -0800
Subject: OS for a Paragon XP/E
Message-ID: <CAHQ+QWD_6LpdUsQ-VztPVzDxxY2mmZC292es_FG3DbVkaucCXQ@mail.gmail.com>

Does anyone have leads on an operating system for such a beast?

TIA,

- Ian

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Feb 12 16:17:37 2018
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 14:17:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Large HP plotter on the curb in Arlington, MA
In-Reply-To: <2265F56D-D2E5-47B5-9896-AF2A7C354E78@avanthar.com>
References: <201802122159.w1CLxZ8G089393@ultimate.com>
 <2265F56D-D2E5-47B5-9896-AF2A7C354E78@avanthar.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802121413080.3967@shell.lmi.net>

On Mon, 12 Feb 2018, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
> The model should be ???1055CM".  I used to support a bunch of these. 
> Not a bad plotter.  Definitely preferred them to the Versatec plotters 
> they replaced.  I suspect HP won???t support it.  I ran into that 
> problem with an earlier model, then to my surprise I found a local 
> outfit that would repair them for a third of what HP had been charging 
> us.
>
> No clue what the ink availability is these days.  The ink carts aren???t 
> cheap, and if it has issues with the print head, someone might have been 
> running old ink through it.

Amazon has ink cartridges!   $150, or ~$50 for refilled
$70 each for printhead (refurbed)
~$120 for a roll of 36" wide paper.

No availability for 1055cm (10 meter) wide paper.  :-)


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Mon Feb 12 16:44:52 2018
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 14:44:52 -0800
Subject: OS for a Paragon XP/E
In-Reply-To: <CAHQ+QWD_6LpdUsQ-VztPVzDxxY2mmZC292es_FG3DbVkaucCXQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHQ+QWD_6LpdUsQ-VztPVzDxxY2mmZC292es_FG3DbVkaucCXQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwKQoRXyTq9u+3rVP9Zk01avzfgEqRECP0-Ft0g7CEW4Kw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 2:17 PM, Ian Finder via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> Does anyone have leads on an operating system for such a beast?
>
> TIA,
>
> - Ian

Thinking about buying this one, that has been listed for years for only $3500?
https://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/sys/d/intel-paragon-xp-supercomputer/6469502922.html

From js at cimmeri.com  Mon Feb 12 16:56:55 2018
From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 17:56:55 -0500
Subject: HP 9816 CP/M-68K
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwLjVgzuAhMyBxyZxHy2dZ3rUAvzQb7sqSQz-AFUTjiO7w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <06b4bfee-c563-16c2-eb8f-6a32dec43877@bitsavers.org>
 <9661eb78-c52e-5b56-5eaa-f94326f584d2@bitsavers.org>
 <CAM2UOwJWuGwd75tTdVUhjCj6gKqjnssiK7Z7acAXovheFD9HwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2c59213e-3fcb-5ff4-e009-94edb0fa34be@bitsavers.org>
 <CAM2UOwLH8bf1aPn2TVVVszKUNbr1LU9T-vYOJqSG+8MONO9DOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802121218520.3967@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAFrGgTSKT_+oxZta0ugKvtF+irV9or559gD1KaRkLpfCx2L49Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwLjVgzuAhMyBxyZxHy2dZ3rUAvzQb7sqSQz-AFUTjiO7w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5A821BB7.4080509@cimmeri.com>

On 2/12/2018 3:52 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 12:34 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>  wrote:
>> Format a track with the sector size that occurs later on the track, with
>> dummy sectors ahead of them and gap sizes selected to position them
>> properly.
>> Start formatting with the sector size for the earlier sectors. Abort the
>> format at the time when the desired number of sectors have been written.
>>
>> I'm not sure whether there's any way to abort a track format on a PC. I did
>> it on a machine that had control over the ?PD765 reset pin.
>>
> Bit 2 of the Digital-Output Register at 0x3F2 resets the FDC when the
> bit is clear.
>
> I used that on my 5150 back in the day when I bought it new to
> reproduce a copy protected disk that used sectors with bad CRCs as one
> of its protection mechanisms. Feed the sector data a byte at a time to
> the FDC in PIO mode so that the timing is controlled, then toggle the
> FDC reset bit in the DOR just at the time when the CRC is being
> written.

That's really "slick," Glen.    If it's not too burdensome to give a 
brief answer, how would you keep track of the time, or know how long 
feeding a byte at a time took?

- John

From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Feb 12 17:00:16 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 15:00:16 -0800
Subject: HP 9816 CP/M-68K
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802121349330.3967@shell.lmi.net>
References: <06b4bfee-c563-16c2-eb8f-6a32dec43877@bitsavers.org>
 <9661eb78-c52e-5b56-5eaa-f94326f584d2@bitsavers.org>
 <CAM2UOwJWuGwd75tTdVUhjCj6gKqjnssiK7Z7acAXovheFD9HwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2c59213e-3fcb-5ff4-e009-94edb0fa34be@bitsavers.org>
 <CAM2UOwLH8bf1aPn2TVVVszKUNbr1LU9T-vYOJqSG+8MONO9DOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802121218520.3967@shell.lmi.net>
 <9c35575b-db2d-8783-f97b-e2f11877d341@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802121349330.3967@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <a1bf4311-4a96-3ea9-c055-17a42edc696b@sydex.com>

On 02/12/2018 01:55 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> Thank you!
> Although these days, it's just curiousity and nostalgia.

Yup.  The shame is that some of the more advanced 765-based FDCs came in
just as the floppy was sunsetting.  For example, the Intel 82078 boasts,
among other things, a 2Mbps data rate option, a 16 byte FIFO and a
"Format and Write" command for single-pass copying.

Some young'uns can still identify a floppy disk, but few have seen the
8" variety.

Few realize that tape and floppy are about the same age.  The US
military discovered the German Magnetophon tape recorder, manufactured
during WW II from about 1939.  In 1946, Brush Corporation made US tape
recorders (the Sound Mirror) and what is best termed a "floppy disk
recorder", the Mail-A-Voice.

Most don't believe me what I say that the floppy disc dates from 1946.

--Chuck


From ggs at shiresoft.com  Mon Feb 12 17:04:35 2018
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 15:04:35 -0800
Subject: HP 9816 CP/M-68K
In-Reply-To: <a1bf4311-4a96-3ea9-c055-17a42edc696b@sydex.com>
References: <06b4bfee-c563-16c2-eb8f-6a32dec43877@bitsavers.org>
 <9661eb78-c52e-5b56-5eaa-f94326f584d2@bitsavers.org>
 <CAM2UOwJWuGwd75tTdVUhjCj6gKqjnssiK7Z7acAXovheFD9HwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2c59213e-3fcb-5ff4-e009-94edb0fa34be@bitsavers.org>
 <CAM2UOwLH8bf1aPn2TVVVszKUNbr1LU9T-vYOJqSG+8MONO9DOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802121218520.3967@shell.lmi.net>
 <9c35575b-db2d-8783-f97b-e2f11877d341@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802121349330.3967@shell.lmi.net>
 <a1bf4311-4a96-3ea9-c055-17a42edc696b@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <43E00678-5753-4243-A622-337A640D1432@shiresoft.com>



> On Feb 12, 2018, at 3:00 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> Most don't believe me what I say that the floppy disc dates from 1946.

And the fax was invented in 1842 (yes *before* the telephone)!

TTFN - Guy


From spacewar at gmail.com  Mon Feb 12 17:14:56 2018
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 16:14:56 -0700
Subject: HP 9816 CP/M-68K
In-Reply-To: <5A821BB7.4080509@cimmeri.com>
References: <06b4bfee-c563-16c2-eb8f-6a32dec43877@bitsavers.org>
 <9661eb78-c52e-5b56-5eaa-f94326f584d2@bitsavers.org>
 <CAM2UOwJWuGwd75tTdVUhjCj6gKqjnssiK7Z7acAXovheFD9HwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <2c59213e-3fcb-5ff4-e009-94edb0fa34be@bitsavers.org>
 <CAM2UOwLH8bf1aPn2TVVVszKUNbr1LU9T-vYOJqSG+8MONO9DOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802121218520.3967@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAFrGgTSKT_+oxZta0ugKvtF+irV9or559gD1KaRkLpfCx2L49Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwLjVgzuAhMyBxyZxHy2dZ3rUAvzQb7sqSQz-AFUTjiO7w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5A821BB7.4080509@cimmeri.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTTgghb90+Rsq5EUG5WQUFp4NG4kHsQ=HbRStQWQc-oOBQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 3:56 PM, js--- via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> That's really "slick," Glen.    If it's not too burdensome to give a brief
> answer, how would you keep track of the time, or know how long feeding a
> byte at a time took?
>

On an original PC or XT (without special turbo modes of clones), you could
probably measure time well enough by counting CPU cycles. Otherwise you'd
need a timer. However, if you make the decision to reset the FDC based on
when it asks for data, you just reset it when it asks for the sector
information for the next sector past the last one that you want to format.
(I haven't actually tried that. I used a timer.)

From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Feb 12 18:07:06 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 16:07:06 -0800
Subject: OS for a Paragon XP/E
In-Reply-To: <CAHQ+QWD_6LpdUsQ-VztPVzDxxY2mmZC292es_FG3DbVkaucCXQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHQ+QWD_6LpdUsQ-VztPVzDxxY2mmZC292es_FG3DbVkaucCXQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <27f75637-3684-801b-7bfd-b36d31d63447@bitsavers.org>

try Paul Pierce

On 2/12/18 2:17 PM, Ian Finder via cctalk wrote:
> Does anyone have leads on an operating system for such a beast?
> 
> TIA,
> 
> - Ian
> 


From pete at petelancashire.com  Mon Feb 12 18:36:56 2018
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 16:36:56 -0800
Subject: Large HP plotter on the curb in Arlington, MA
In-Reply-To: <201802122159.w1CLxZ8G089393@ultimate.com>
References: <201802122159.w1CLxZ8G089393@ultimate.com>
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u8X9s0Luv4VdXothHXb_YggD0=Utu3ktW0KdRcr8TyRaw@mail.gmail.com>

If your in or near Portland Oregon I have a couple of the pen plotters and
the early ink-jet monsters

Price $1 each, you load and get out of the basement. Then parts units about
at 50 mile round trip to/from the country.

-pete

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 1:59 PM, Phil Budne via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Spotted next to driveway of 7 Central St, Arlington MA
>
> Model C6075A.
> Attached sign says "needs new print head"
>
> https://h10057.www1.hp.com/ecomcat/hpcatalog/specs/
> provisioner/05/C6075A.htm
> is copyright 2006, so perhaps not "classic"
> and says:
>         "HP Designjet 1055cm Printer"
>         (tho 1055mm seems more likely to me)
>
> Tomorrow (13th) is trash day, current forecast is 0% chance of
> precipitation today and tomorrow.  You'll need a van or a pickup
> truck, it's larger than I could drag home, and I've no place to put
> it.
>
>
>

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Feb 12 18:39:28 2018
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 16:39:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.
In-Reply-To: <20180210144529.7BDE218C0DD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20180210144529.7BDE218C0DD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802121635370.3967@shell.lmi.net>

> . . .  people are more likely to find
> it, when they're looking for info on a topic, if it's part of something like
> the CHWiki, than they are on individual Web sites.

. . . and, there is an amazing amount of stuff to glean from the archives 
of this mailing list (although it may not survive all disasters).

And, all that you need to do, to find this information about various 
aspects of finding things, is to be able to guess that it is 
filed under:
"Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1."

We don't seem to ever get around to adjusting subject lines, which permits 
incorrect subject line to be an impediment to searching.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Feb 12 19:07:37 2018
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 17:07:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Good old days at Comdex (Was: Large HP plotter on the curb in
 Arlington, MA
In-Reply-To: <CAA-F0u8X9s0Luv4VdXothHXb_YggD0=Utu3ktW0KdRcr8TyRaw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201802122159.w1CLxZ8G089393@ultimate.com>
 <CAA-F0u8X9s0Luv4VdXothHXb_YggD0=Utu3ktW0KdRcr8TyRaw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802121643330.3967@shell.lmi.net>

On Mon, 12 Feb 2018, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote:
> If your in or near Portland Oregon I have a couple of the pen plotters and
> the early ink-jet monsters


OB_Reminesce (rambling) of the good-old-days:
The first time that I encountered a roll fed wide inkjet printer (NOT an 
HP one), about 25 years ago, I happened to be in need of a banner sign for 
my Comdex booth.  It was at a service company that printed plueprints, 
etc.

They said that it spoke Postscript.  So, I programmed a quick little 
Postscript routine to print MANY lines radiating from a point, 
but only showing withint the outlines of large letters.
A gorgeous sign of rainbow colored letters.

It turned out to NOT be Postscript, but "Freedom Of The Press" which was 
an imitation Postscript that choked on my routine (probably not enough 
stack space for the simplistic way that I had written it).

I found a copy of that imitation Postscript, and redid my code so that it 
would run on it.  But, it took WAY too long, so I simplified my design to 
something nowhere near as nice, but at least wouldn't tie up the printer 
too long.

I had a TINY Comdex booth, 7 feet by 7 feet, which was created by a 
mistake in their divvying yo the space, and was much more affordable (half
the price) of the next smallest 10x10.  When we got there, Comdex had 
changed their mind and moved us to a 10x10 but at the previously agreed 
price! And it was next to a good friend of ours.

Sure was glad that we hadn't trimmed the end margins of the sign yet!

Went to Home Depot, got conduit, and made a new sign holding frame.

Then, the night before the show opened (Comdex lasts a work week), our 
friend ended up in the hospital.  AND, his wife couldn't find an important 
box, containing among other things, their imprinter (used both for credit 
cards, and taking down info from embossed attendee ID cards).  So, we took 
down the wall on that side of our booth, and half combined our booth with 
theirs, to help her run it, and share our resources (staff, office 
supplies, refrigerator (with beer for Jerry Pournelle), tools, etc.)
So, instead of a 7x7, we shared and ran a 10x20 that was partially 
divided.
By the end of the show, our friend was almost fully recovered, and we all 
did well with the show.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From healyzh at avanthar.com  Mon Feb 12 19:19:43 2018
From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 17:19:43 -0800
Subject: Large HP plotter on the curb in Arlington, MA
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802121413080.3967@shell.lmi.net>
References: <201802122159.w1CLxZ8G089393@ultimate.com>
 <2265F56D-D2E5-47B5-9896-AF2A7C354E78@avanthar.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802121413080.3967@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <8FFDD9C9-FC87-4109-8EA2-D1EFA866452C@avanthar.com>


> On Feb 12, 2018, at 2:17 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 12 Feb 2018, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>> The model should be ?1055CM".  I used to support a bunch of these. Not a bad plotter.  Definitely preferred them to the Versatec plotters they replaced.  I suspect HP won?t support it.  I ran into that problem with an earlier model, then to my surprise I found a local outfit that would repair them for a third of what HP had been charging us.
>> 
>> No clue what the ink availability is these days.  The ink carts aren?t cheap, and if it has issues with the print head, someone might have been running old ink through it.
> 
> Amazon has ink cartridges!   $150, or ~$50 for refilled
> $70 each for printhead (refurbed)
> ~$120 for a roll of 36" wide paper.
> 
> No availability for 1055cm (10 meter) wide paper.  :-)

The idea of paper that size gives me nightmare.  I supported a couple 55? Xerox plotters, the ends of the paper were almost always damaged in shipping.  A crafty user discovered, out of desperation, that you could carve the damaged portion out with a pocket knife.

Those were replaced with 60? HP?s, but the minute it was installed, someone else took over responsibility.  So I?m not sure if it was as much problem, probably night, HP was wiser in their paper packaging.

A bad weekend would be measured in miles.

Zane

 



From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net  Mon Feb 12 19:29:04 2018
From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 20:29:04 -0500
Subject: OS for a Paragon XP/E
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwKQoRXyTq9u+3rVP9Zk01avzfgEqRECP0-Ft0g7CEW4Kw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHQ+QWD_6LpdUsQ-VztPVzDxxY2mmZC292es_FG3DbVkaucCXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwKQoRXyTq9u+3rVP9Zk01avzfgEqRECP0-Ft0g7CEW4Kw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a558e3e7-9b88-1b9a-5b9a-bf372d821940@comcast.net>

On 2/12/2018 5:44 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 2:17 PM, Ian Finder via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> Does anyone have leads on an operating system for such a beast?
>>
>> TIA,
>>
>> - Ian
> Thinking about buying this one, that has been listed for years for only $3500?
> https://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/sys/d/intel-paragon-xp-supercomputer/6469502922.html

In the 1990 time frame our group at NRL inherited two of the IPSC/860 
hypercubes, one from NASA and the other from DARPA.? Neat machines, but 
they were like owning a Ferrari, expensive to keep going.

You had to love the cabinets they were in, so classy.

Doug


From rtomek at ceti.pl  Tue Feb 13 12:07:25 2018
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 19:07:25 +0100
Subject: Large HP plotter on the curb in Arlington, MA
In-Reply-To: <2265F56D-D2E5-47B5-9896-AF2A7C354E78@avanthar.com>
References: <201802122159.w1CLxZ8G089393@ultimate.com>
 <2265F56D-D2E5-47B5-9896-AF2A7C354E78@avanthar.com>
Message-ID: <20180213180725.GA26113@tau1.ceti.pl>

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 02:07:29PM -0800, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
[...]
> 
> No clue what the ink availability is these days.  The ink carts
> aren?t cheap, and if it has issues with the print head, someone
> might have been running old ink through it.
[...]

If it is similar (somewhat) to old ink HP printer, then perhaps it
could be renewed by bathing in isopropyl alcohol. I give this
treatment to 840c printer head (I use black ink only) because every
time I want to print something (once per month or two) the head is dry
(and the ink is not original). If I have no alcohol at hand or am too
lazy to walk few meters, I wash it with LCD cleaner in spray. Perhaps
I am killing it in the process, but the cost of repairing eventual
damage is low and this is interesting experiment. Stand the cartridge
upside down on paper cloth, spray the head with a cleaner, watch it
sink into the head (or maybe evaporate), repeat. I can usually print
few pages after about an hour of that.

No guarantees - if you do this to your hardware, you are responsible
for the damages.

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **

From ftg888 at elbonia.org  Sun Feb  4 18:50:52 2018
From: ftg888 at elbonia.org (ftg888 at elbonia.org)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 01:50:52 +0100
Subject: Looking for a home
In-Reply-To: <CAA-F0u8pRUukH=OsFBV+sJw2tfL22fd+6HiuFMOJhGe=rAwJCA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA-F0u8pRUukH=OsFBV+sJw2tfL22fd+6HiuFMOJhGe=rAwJCA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EB8119A2-8A9E-43D0-A5BA-28443349B792@elbonia.org>

How much for the vax 3100?
Please?


Sent from my iPhone

> On 5 Feb 2018, at 01:46, Pete Lancashire via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Need to start cleaning aut, will have more/better pictures soon
> 
> The Alphas have full True64 feature certificates, at least one ran
> before going into storage and has 2 72 GBs and at least 3 new 300 GB drives.
> 
> One of the Suns is a Sun1 pre-production
> 
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/c8dHa89KUaUGVn9n1
> 
> The IBM RS6000 has been spoken for
> 
> -pete


From brian at marstella.net  Tue Feb 13 19:56:34 2018
From: brian at marstella.net (Brian Marstella)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 20:56:34 -0500
Subject: Looking for a home
In-Reply-To: <CAA-F0u8pRUukH=OsFBV+sJw2tfL22fd+6HiuFMOJhGe=rAwJCA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA-F0u8pRUukH=OsFBV+sJw2tfL22fd+6HiuFMOJhGe=rAwJCA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPmgNjXn_ZO0G92A0x2TcORVbahUzu-JkhMMkoqG46bjbzhOgQ@mail.gmail.com>

Have you determined a price for the HP?

Regards, Brian

On Feb 4, 2018 19:46, "Pete Lancashire via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> Need to start cleaning aut, will have more/better pictures soon
>
> The Alphas have full True64 feature certificates, at least one ran
> before going into storage and has 2 72 GBs and at least 3 new 300 GB
> drives.
>
> One of the Suns is a Sun1 pre-production
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/c8dHa89KUaUGVn9n1
>
> The IBM RS6000 has been spoken for
>
> -pete
>

From sellam.ismail at gmail.com  Tue Feb 13 16:44:22 2018
From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 14:44:22 -0800
Subject: FS: Various boards of all kinds from Sellam's collection
Message-ID: <CAHJBWnQNhGXd+NBAP5ODiApckXs0Q5fBO3L2NekmX6+9RW9saQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Folks!

I have accumulated a large assortment of random boards that I need to move
along.  There's a bunch of PC stuff and then a bunch of random.  It's best
to just view the list and see the accompanying photos and then ask me any
questions you might have.

The list is here:

http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?58709-New-Items-For-Sale-Check-the-List-and-Make-an-Offer-or-Request&p=500367#post500367

For fastest response please inquire directly via e-mail to <
sellam.ismail at gmail.com>.

Thanks!

Sellam

From pete at petelancashire.com  Wed Feb 14 20:47:51 2018
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 18:47:51 -0800
Subject: Large HP plotter on the curb in Arlington, MA
In-Reply-To: <20180213180725.GA26113@tau1.ceti.pl>
References: <201802122159.w1CLxZ8G089393@ultimate.com>
 <2265F56D-D2E5-47B5-9896-AF2A7C354E78@avanthar.com>
 <20180213180725.GA26113@tau1.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u_dcFhGSQKHRztzB2EQmAPZKht+G187ifx1oL92KOaxPA@mail.gmail.com>

I  will be getting the model numbers this weekend and again free in
Portland Oregon, if not found a home in a few weeks will be in a local
metal scrap yard.



On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 10:07 AM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 02:07:29PM -0800, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
> [...]
> >
> > No clue what the ink availability is these days.  The ink carts
> > aren?t cheap, and if it has issues with the print head, someone
> > might have been running old ink through it.
> [...]
>
> If it is similar (somewhat) to old ink HP printer, then perhaps it
> could be renewed by bathing in isopropyl alcohol. I give this
> treatment to 840c printer head (I use black ink only) because every
> time I want to print something (once per month or two) the head is dry
> (and the ink is not original). If I have no alcohol at hand or am too
> lazy to walk few meters, I wash it with LCD cleaner in spray. Perhaps
> I am killing it in the process, but the cost of repairing eventual
> damage is low and this is interesting experiment. Stand the cartridge
> upside down on paper cloth, spray the head with a cleaner, watch it
> sink into the head (or maybe evaporate), repeat. I can usually print
> few pages after about an hour of that.
>
> No guarantees - if you do this to your hardware, you are responsible
> for the damages.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Tomasz Rola
>
> --
> ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
> ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
> ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
> **                                                                 **
> ** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **
>
>

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Feb 14 21:14:56 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 19:14:56 -0800
Subject: Large HP plotter on the curb in Arlington, MA
In-Reply-To: <CAA-F0u_dcFhGSQKHRztzB2EQmAPZKht+G187ifx1oL92KOaxPA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201802122159.w1CLxZ8G089393@ultimate.com>
 <2265F56D-D2E5-47B5-9896-AF2A7C354E78@avanthar.com>
 <20180213180725.GA26113@tau1.ceti.pl>
 <CAA-F0u_dcFhGSQKHRztzB2EQmAPZKht+G187ifx1oL92KOaxPA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <dc8f8d3e-2d32-abac-ebae-dfb5b6dad1a2@sydex.com>

On 02/14/2018 06:47 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote:
> I  will be getting the model numbers this weekend and again free in
> Portland Oregon, if not found a home in a few weeks will be in a local
> metal scrap yard.

Pete, wouldn't these things be most common in college towns with schools
of architecture?

I'll swear that I've seen a couple sitting at NextStep recycling waiting
for an adoper down here in Eugene.

--Chuck


From pete at petelancashire.com  Wed Feb 14 21:51:49 2018
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 19:51:49 -0800
Subject: Large HP plotter on the curb in Arlington, MA
In-Reply-To: <dc8f8d3e-2d32-abac-ebae-dfb5b6dad1a2@sydex.com>
References: <201802122159.w1CLxZ8G089393@ultimate.com>
 <2265F56D-D2E5-47B5-9896-AF2A7C354E78@avanthar.com>
 <20180213180725.GA26113@tau1.ceti.pl>
 <CAA-F0u_dcFhGSQKHRztzB2EQmAPZKht+G187ifx1oL92KOaxPA@mail.gmail.com>
 <dc8f8d3e-2d32-abac-ebae-dfb5b6dad1a2@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u_5OHLWfNi7gEPcouE9ardTPNt0HMXto2jFnSh4wpWO1Q@mail.gmail.com>

The pen plotters came from Tektronix and the inkjets either free or via
Craigslist

-pete

On Wed, Feb 14, 2018 at 7:14 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 02/14/2018 06:47 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote:
> > I  will be getting the model numbers this weekend and again free in
> > Portland Oregon, if not found a home in a few weeks will be in a local
> > metal scrap yard.
>
> Pete, wouldn't these things be most common in college towns with schools
> of architecture?
>
> I'll swear that I've seen a couple sitting at NextStep recycling waiting
> for an adoper down here in Eugene.
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>

From ian.finder at gmail.com  Wed Feb 14 23:34:54 2018
From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 21:34:54 -0800
Subject: Seeking one or two Xerox daybreak mice, preferably 3 button
Message-ID: <E7874465-F500-4C1F-8610-025111B1E6C1@gmail.com>

Trying to get a leg up on a project and keep a ratio of peripherals to machines, please let me know if you have one to sell.

Sent from my toaster oven.

From couryhouse at aol.com  Thu Feb 15 00:21:52 2018
From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 01:21:52 -0500
Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Anyone_familiar=C2=A0with_early_television_closed_circ?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?uit_system_at_used_in_conjunction_=C2=A0with_=C2=A0the_SAGE?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?_System=3F!=3F_Got_a_=C2=A0odd_=C2=A0l?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?ittle_=C2=A0group=C2=A0of_=C2=A0USAF_=C2=A0TV?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?_=C2=A0related_papers_=C2=A0etc..._?=
 =?UTF-8?Q?=C2=A0but_=C2=A0some_=C2=A0tagged_=C2=A0SAGE.?=
Message-ID: <161982056a6-c91-684a@webjas-vac101.srv.aolmail.net>

Anyone familiar?with early television closed circuit system at used in conjunction ?with ?the SAGE System?!? Got a ?odd ?little ?group?of ?USAF ?TV ?related papers ?etc... ?but ?some ?tagged ?SAGE...


?
thanks in advance ?Ed# ?

From ethan at 757.org  Thu Feb 15 10:13:45 2018
From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 11:13:45 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Large HP plotter on the curb in Arlington, MA
In-Reply-To: <CAA-F0u_5OHLWfNi7gEPcouE9ardTPNt0HMXto2jFnSh4wpWO1Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201802122159.w1CLxZ8G089393@ultimate.com>
 <2265F56D-D2E5-47B5-9896-AF2A7C354E78@avanthar.com>
 <20180213180725.GA26113@tau1.ceti.pl>
 <CAA-F0u_dcFhGSQKHRztzB2EQmAPZKht+G187ifx1oL92KOaxPA@mail.gmail.com>
 <dc8f8d3e-2d32-abac-ebae-dfb5b6dad1a2@sydex.com>
 <CAA-F0u_5OHLWfNi7gEPcouE9ardTPNt0HMXto2jFnSh4wpWO1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802151108370.26349@users.757.org>

> The pen plotters came from Tektronix and the inkjets either free or via
> -pete

Late to the thread but I owned a HP DesignJet 1050C until recently. It's 
similar to what was on the curb in Arlington, MA I believe?

They're beautiful machines. The ink carts can be had expired and will run. 
The drive belt will degrade and turn to mush after ~14 years or so 
depending on where it's stored. Replacements are $20 from eBay.

The ink carts and heads run $900 new but used I used to get them dirt 
cheap via ebay, always expired by 10 years or so. Yellow is the first to 
go.

Standard inkjet white paper from ebay is like $20 a roll for linear feet 
at 36" wide.

My machine was 4 color not 6 color (no pastels.) Used it to print cheap 
signage for a Makerfaire in Norfolk, signage for an arcade and video game 
music event called MAGFest in the DC area and a few other events. I sold 
it because I wasn't as involved in running events + there is one at the 
local makerspace. Plus needed room for more arcades/pinballs.

New machines might lock out expired ink carts though.

I have owned pen plotters in the past as well, they are fun to watch.

But the HP designjets are cool machines. But physically somewhat large as 
there is a lot of extra room on the left and right of the print area 
compared to similar machines from Epson.

There are videos on youtube on swapping things like the ink delivery 
system and the drive belt. I feared actually doing to work to replace the 
drive belt but really it took like 30 minutes after watching the video and 
having torx nearby.

--
: Ethan O'Toole



From web at loomcom.com  Thu Feb 15 13:48:53 2018
From: web at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 11:48:53 -0800
Subject: Looking for "MacScheme"
Message-ID: <1518724133.3671736.1272290432.088C33D2@webmail.messagingengine.com>

I'm trying to track down "MacScheme", an implementation of the Scheme programming language for the Macintosh (68K). It's not even all that old, but it seems to have completely vanished off the face of the earth.

It was published by Lightship Software in the early 1990s. I have found several editions of the user manual that came with a trial version of the software, but of course the original disks are missing.

If anyone has a copy of MacScheme, could you please contact me? I'd like to preserve this title. Willing to buy the physical media if you're willing to sell it.

-Seth 
-- 
  Seth Morabito
  web at loomcom.com

From useddec at gmail.com  Fri Feb 16 03:26:21 2018
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 03:26:21 -0600
Subject: ABLE Quiniverter, UNIMAP, boards, cables, user guide available
Message-ID: <CACwhfuOJ7aWFLf4ayyBXimWdVgD6ANAxWMA8izSYJG9hyk6mYw@mail.gmail.com>

10412-0     2 plus 1 with cables and adapter board and cables

10067-0     2

10001000 has ECO's or modifications

UNIMAP Users Guide 10143X07  possibly for use with 10164 and others

Please contact me off list if you are interested  in trading or wish to
make an offer.

Shipping is $10 within the  for as many as you want. Please inquire about
shipping outside the US.

Thanks, Paul

From useddec at gmail.com  Fri Feb 16 03:39:52 2018
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 03:39:52 -0600
Subject: DEC compatible boards
Message-ID: <CACwhfuOmO3ne21CiBaXX8wofD+_KWMMWjhuhk0-VvBtcziKSfw@mail.gmail.com>

I have well over 100, maybe 200 DEC compatible boards which I have no plans
to use. Maybe 20 or so EMULEX, DILOG, ADAC, DATA TRANSLATIONS, and dozens
or other manufacturers. Also the ones that have no company name on them.

They range from a few PDP-8 boards, to Q-bus. Unibus, to VAX.

I hope to have a complete list sometime later this year, bur feel free to
send a wish list (off list)and I will dig through them.

Thanks, Paul

From m.zahorik at sbcglobal.net  Fri Feb 16 09:20:15 2018
From: m.zahorik at sbcglobal.net (Michael Zahorik)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 15:20:15 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: DEC compatible boards
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuOmO3ne21CiBaXX8wofD+_KWMMWjhuhk0-VvBtcziKSfw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACwhfuOmO3ne21CiBaXX8wofD+_KWMMWjhuhk0-VvBtcziKSfw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <348774944.2277099.1518794415621@mail.yahoo.com>

Paul, I'm looking for dec m8650 for a PDP8E.
?Mike Zahorik (414) 254-6768

      From: Paul Anderson via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>; cctech at vax-11.org 
 Sent: Friday, February 16, 2018 3:40 AM
 Subject: DEC compatible boards
   
I have well over 100, maybe 200 DEC compatible boards which I have no plans
to use. Maybe 20 or so EMULEX, DILOG, ADAC, DATA TRANSLATIONS, and dozens
or other manufacturers. Also the ones that have no company name on them.

They range from a few PDP-8 boards, to Q-bus. Unibus, to VAX.

I hope to have a complete list sometime later this year, bur feel free to
send a wish list (off list)and I will dig through them.

Thanks, Paul


   

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 16 18:50:56 2018
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 00:50:56 +0000
Subject: RX02 problem
In-Reply-To: <BN1PR0101MB07542143289FF042F9658270EDF80@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
References: <a58ddf66-14a8-3161-7053-c6d143d294b4@jwsss.com>
 <CAM2UOwLFaXoG9wYL7v=QKLOWbxK_ay5E8BhNStxSj15aU1VX6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAq7DHr+JVVCjzOGTAukupHD9K9EP6h+W2H7GoJmO6+7VcgWDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwLTNsLuTASOEmU-oi4NboHnAV=U-NyMpG4rt3yK4=mhkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwKFWGQCjWn7SZE4fBZ=oTRHpOHnVXZpHj4gY6MqDXbpHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <BN1PR0101MB075480CE883DE90E7FBFAB39EDF80@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
 <f8fd8e53-c576-4017-54f7-778359b53148@gmail.com>
 <BN1PR0101MB07542143289FF042F9658270EDF80@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>
Message-ID: <BN1PR0101MB075445E19AE221D19675C6FCEDCA0@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>



On 02/03/2018 05:42 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>
> On 02/03/2018 05:26 PM, allison via cctalk wrote:
>> On 02/03/2018 03:38 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>>> Do we have any real RX02 experts?? My long time running
>>>
>>> RX02 seems to have decided to go on strike.? When I try to
>>>
>>> access it now it repeatedly loads and unloads the heads but
>>>
>>> never reads anything.? I can usually break out of it with
>>>
>>> control-C.? Attempts to boot from it have the same effect.
>>>
>>>
>>> Anybody else ever see this behavior?
>>>
>>>
>>> Oh yeah, I know the controllers are good as I also have an
>>>
>>> AK6DN emulator and it works (well up to a point, but that's
>>>
>>> a problem for another message.? :-)
>>>
>>>
>>> bill
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> HI,
>>
>> Assuming you haven't killed the media either the heads are crudded up
>> or the cable is partially disconnected.
> Ah ha.? I suspect the cable is bad.? I had to repair it once and
> I now suspect it is gone bad yet again.? Wonder if I have another
> cable that size floating around here somewhere.
>
>> FYI if the heads are crudded up the media with have a circular scratch
>> generally in the directory or boot areas (outer edges).? That kills the
>> media for reading that area.
> While possible I would expect that to develop slowly and this was sudden
> like.
>

Well, I made a new cable for my RX02.? No luck.? Any attempt
to access either drive just results in the rapid loading and
unloading of the head.? Happens when I try to boot them
or try to get a DIR after booting from the harddisk.

Anybody have any suggestions other than the RXes have
bit the farm?

bill



From useddec at gmail.com  Sat Feb 17 00:26:04 2018
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 00:26:04 -0600
Subject: DEC Tape drive, controller, formater parts
Message-ID: <CACwhfuMZxhnhOqeNhxFSeDHtCYdv9wYf7+GnYs+gZyxz8zjyBw@mail.gmail.com>

Here is  list of DEC tape related parts. Please contact me off list if you
have any questions or wish to make any offers. One, all, or anywhere in
between. Located in IL


Thanks, Paul



3-         M8901

3-         M8901YA

6-         M8901-YB

2-         M8901-YC

            M8901-YD

2-         M8902

            M8902-YA

2-         M8904

            M8904-YA

3-         M8905

            M8905-YB

4-         M8906

3-         M8907

6-         M8908

3-         M8908-YA

            M8912

            M8922

            M8923

3-         M8924

2-         M8929

            M8931

2-         M8933

2-         M8937

            M8940

3-         M8950

            M8951

2-         M8953

            M8955

            M8957

            M8958

            M8960

            M8962

            M8966

            M8967

            54-12262

            54-12264

From robert626001 at gmail.com  Sat Feb 17 09:42:13 2018
From: robert626001 at gmail.com (Robert)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 09:42:13 -0600
Subject: Looking for info on some Olympia CP/M machines - ETX I,
 ETX II & EX 100
Message-ID: <CAHDf=2UZ5ZESk7zMth5KFfrR4940qfO8L6O+yJEgpCDWE5U_OQ@mail.gmail.com>

This week, I scored four Olympia boxes - an ETX I, an ETX II and two EX 100s.

Googling has not been very fruitful. I have established that the ETX
II and the EX 100 are CP/M machines, SSDD 48 tpi 5.25" and DSDD 48 tpi
5.25" respectively and have seen one assertion that the ETX II is
S-100 based - I won't be able to confirm that until I open it up. I
found nothing on the ETX I. It doesn't seem to have a floppy drive, so
may not be a CP/M box. I guess I'll have to power it on and see if it
gives me a clue as to what's in the firmware.

As best I can figure out, these were sold as add ons for electric
typewriters. You hooked them up, with they typewriter acting as
keyboard and printer and you had a word processor or computer.

I think I have one interface board, that came in a box with the EX I.

Does anybody know anything about these machines? It seems like a boot
disk from an Osborne One would work.

Most immediately, though, does anybody know which typewriters they
worked with? I have an opportunity to go back to where I got them,
today and it would be great if I didn't have to haul off every damn
typewriter with "Olympia" on it!

Thanks
-- Robert

From mcwood at nefkom.net  Sat Feb 17 09:29:48 2018
From: mcwood at nefkom.net (Marc Holz)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 16:29:48 +0100
Subject: LMI Lambda Lispmachine Keyboard aka Space Cadet Keyboad
Message-ID: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAKJAyNrk1LNLkqqQVfjDetjCgAAAEAAAANVmM6zVMT9OrCr2ecQ/L2UBAAAAAA==@nefkom.net>

Hello,

 

I have the keyboard for a LMI Lambda Lispmachine but I'm missing the
computer itself.

Is there a simulator or similar available?

 

The keyboard is similar like here
http://world.std.com/~jdostale/kbd/SpaceCadet.html.

On the left side there is lable with "LMI" and a sticker "Scientific
Computers Limited".

 

Here is a picture showing the actual layout:
http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/michael/blog/1402/140208-keyboard.jpg

 

Best Regards,

Marc

 

 

 

 


From linimon at lonesome.com  Sat Feb 17 10:43:37 2018
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 10:43:37 -0600
Subject: DEC Tape drive, controller, formater parts
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuMZxhnhOqeNhxFSeDHtCYdv9wYf7+GnYs+gZyxz8zjyBw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACwhfuMZxhnhOqeNhxFSeDHtCYdv9wYf7+GnYs+gZyxz8zjyBw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20180217164336.GA23876@lonesome.com>

Does this mean you finally got that shipment in that you were expecting?

mcl

From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Feb 17 14:18:55 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 12:18:55 -0800
Subject: Looking for info on some Olympia CP/M machines - ETX I, ETX II &
 EX 100
In-Reply-To: <CAHDf=2UZ5ZESk7zMth5KFfrR4940qfO8L6O+yJEgpCDWE5U_OQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHDf=2UZ5ZESk7zMth5KFfrR4940qfO8L6O+yJEgpCDWE5U_OQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <626b6c27-d29a-4fcb-84a8-b1f0b6bea53b@sydex.com>

On 02/17/2018 07:42 AM, Robert via cctalk wrote:

> Does anybody know anything about these machines? It seems like a boot
> disk from an Osborne One would work.

I've got disks for both the ETV II and EX 100 and no, an O1 disk
wouldn't work.  Different geometry for starters.

--Chuck


From useddec at gmail.com  Sat Feb 17 14:57:29 2018
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 14:57:29 -0600
Subject: RX02 problem
Message-ID: <CACwhfuNAK+G4JMX+Ed4wC=bv6swVz48ECaa8u2zV0kx13HbKhA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Bill,

If you have tried new media and the problem is on both drives, I have the
M7744 and M7745 boards for $75 each and will throw in the cable between
them. Shipping is $10 within the US.

Thanks, Paul

From ggs at shiresoft.com  Sat Feb 17 16:38:52 2018
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 14:38:52 -0800
Subject: LMI Lambda Lispmachine Keyboard aka Space Cadet Keyboad
In-Reply-To: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAKJAyNrk1LNLkqqQVfjDetjCgAAAEAAAANVmM6zVMT9OrCr2ecQ/L2UBAAAAAA==@nefkom.net>
References: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAKJAyNrk1LNLkqqQVfjDetjCgAAAEAAAANVmM6zVMT9OrCr2ecQ/L2UBAAAAAA==@nefkom.net>
Message-ID: <4325C284-1C2E-433D-A120-3E9E69F1DFFE@shiresoft.com>

I haven?t seen an emulator for an LMI, but here?s a link to a CADR emulator that was the precursor to both Symbolics and LMI so it might be worthwhile to try out.

TTFN - Guy

> On Feb 17, 2018, at 7:29 AM, Marc Holz via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> 
> 
> I have the keyboard for a LMI Lambda Lispmachine but I'm missing the
> computer itself.
> 
> Is there a simulator or similar available?
> 
> 
> 
> The keyboard is similar like here
> http://world.std.com/~jdostale/kbd/SpaceCadet.html.
> 
> On the left side there is lable with "LMI" and a sticker "Scientific
> Computers Limited".
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a picture showing the actual layout:
> http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/michael/blog/1402/140208-keyboard.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Marc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


From ggs at shiresoft.com  Sat Feb 17 16:38:52 2018
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 14:38:52 -0800
Subject: LMI Lambda Lispmachine Keyboard aka Space Cadet Keyboad
In-Reply-To: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAKJAyNrk1LNLkqqQVfjDetjCgAAAEAAAANVmM6zVMT9OrCr2ecQ/L2UBAAAAAA==@nefkom.net>
References: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAKJAyNrk1LNLkqqQVfjDetjCgAAAEAAAANVmM6zVMT9OrCr2ecQ/L2UBAAAAAA==@nefkom.net>
Message-ID: <4325C284-1C2E-433D-A120-3E9E69F1DFFE@shiresoft.com>

I haven?t seen an emulator for an LMI, but here?s a link to a CADR emulator that was the precursor to both Symbolics and LMI so it might be worthwhile to try out.

TTFN - Guy

> On Feb 17, 2018, at 7:29 AM, Marc Holz via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> 
> 
> I have the keyboard for a LMI Lambda Lispmachine but I'm missing the
> computer itself.
> 
> Is there a simulator or similar available?
> 
> 
> 
> The keyboard is similar like here
> http://world.std.com/~jdostale/kbd/SpaceCadet.html.
> 
> On the left side there is lable with "LMI" and a sticker "Scientific
> Computers Limited".
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a picture showing the actual layout:
> http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/michael/blog/1402/140208-keyboard.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Marc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sat Feb 17 16:54:01 2018
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 14:54:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Looking for info on some Olympia CP/M machines - ETX I, ETX II
 & EX 100
In-Reply-To: <CAHDf=2UZ5ZESk7zMth5KFfrR4940qfO8L6O+yJEgpCDWE5U_OQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHDf=2UZ5ZESk7zMth5KFfrR4940qfO8L6O+yJEgpCDWE5U_OQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802171257300.25927@shell.lmi.net>

On Sat, 17 Feb 2018, Robert via cctalk wrote:
> This week, I scored four Olympia boxes - an ETX I, an ETX II and two EX 
> 100s.
> Googling has not been very fruitful. I have established that the ETX
> II and the EX 100 are CP/M machines, SSDD 48 tpi 5.25" and DSDD 48 tpi
> 5.25" respectively
and the ETXIII ("Boss"?) seems to have been a newer version of EYXII with 
3.5" drives, and the Olympia People was some sort of XT.

> and have seen one assertion that the ETX II is
> S-100 based - I won't be able to confirm that until I open it up. I
> found nothing on the ETX I. It doesn't seem to have a floppy drive, so
> may not be a CP/M box.

What connectors does it have?
In those days, DC37 was used for floppies, and occasionally other things, 
so do not connect anything until you confirm what the connector is 
connected to.
In some cases, other connectors were used for floppies, including DB25 and 
DA15.

> I guess I'll have to power it on and see if it
> gives me a clue as to what's in the firmware.

DO NOT POWER IT ON!, until you open it up and make a visual inspection.

> Does anybody know anything about these machines? It seems like a boot
> disk from an Osborne One would work.

ABSOLUTELY NOT.
Well, it would physically fit into the drive, AND they are both 
soft-sector, so you COULD bulk-erase the Osborne disk (cue: screams from 
Osborne people), and then create an Olympia boot disk.
The Osborne disk will also not work as a boot disk for a Windows 10 
computer.  :-) 
There were thousands of different disk formats.  And each one had a boot 
disk that was mutually incompatible with the others.
It IS possible that it might share a boot disk with the Olympia Boss
http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=95

> Most immediately, though, does anybody know which typewriters they
> worked with? I have an opportunity to go back to where I got them,
> today and it would be great if I didn't have to haul off every damn
> typewriter with "Olympia" on it!

Well, you can start by leaving behind any Olympia typewriters that are 
non-electric :-).  and the electric ones that have no provision for 
connectors other than power,  although sometimes the connectors are 
hidden internally and require an additional board, cable, and/or 
replacement exterior panel.

This guy
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.os.cpm/NkaVTwT11dM
thinks that it was the 200 series.  But, his mention of "Microsoft 
Wordstar" casts some doubt on the accuracy of his details.  Micropro was 
never affiliated with Microsoft.
(Olympia, being a German? company would definitely have spelled it "disK", 
as you did, not "disC")

From mbbrutman at brutman.com  Sat Feb 17 20:55:09 2018
From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael Brutman)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 18:55:09 -0800
Subject: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!
Message-ID: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>

For your viewing pleasure ...

https://photos.app.goo.gl/QPfZ4WXPdIdUo5gn2


-Mike

From fritzm at fritzm.org  Sat Feb 17 21:07:09 2018
From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 19:07:09 -0800
Subject: Restoring a VT50 (VT52 actually) .
Message-ID: <0C3EA701-7E88-47FF-AD28-0B6AFA976890@fritzm.org>

On 12/26/2017 5:25 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote:
> Since the terminal appears to work I also dumped the firmware out of the four bipolar PROMs. 
> 
> http://storage.datormuseum.se/u/96935524/Datormusuem/VT52/124A9.HEX
> http://storage.datormuseum.se/u/96935524/Datormusuem/VT52/125A9.HEX
> http://storage.datormuseum.se/u/96935524/Datormusuem/VT52/126A9.HEX
> http://storage.datormuseum.se/u/96935524/Datormusuem/VT52/127A9.HEX
> 
> @Fritz: You don't need to get a dump of the PROMs in your terminal. I think the ones I have is in pretty good shape. 

Well, I finally got some time to play in the basement again this weekend, so I thought I'd have a go a freshening the PROM sockets on my VT52 to see if that makes it less flaky.  Pulled the PROMs and gave them a read on my DATA I/O.  The four I have are indeed bit-identical to the dumps posted by Mattis above, so I thought I'd note that here for completeness.

    cheers,
      --FritzM.


From healyzh at avanthar.com  Sat Feb 17 21:49:32 2018
From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 19:49:32 -0800
Subject: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!
In-Reply-To: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9AA3AB29-B8A7-417F-8D8B-A57C4D9B4D63@avanthar.com>


> On Feb 17, 2018, at 6:55 PM, Michael Brutman via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> For your viewing pleasure ...
> 
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/QPfZ4WXPdIdUo5gn2
> 
> 
> -Mike

Thank you for sharing those.  I didn?t even know about it until a few days before when Jack Rubin contacted me.  Unfortunately, by then, between work and family stuff, that week was absolutely insane for me.

One of these days I have to make it up to the museum!

Zane



From linimon at lonesome.com  Sat Feb 17 23:24:48 2018
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 23:24:48 -0600
Subject: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!
In-Reply-To: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20180218052448.GA26958@lonesome.com>

I've looked through a lot of these but had to stop because my eyes were
crossing.  And my parents told me never to do that.

My count of the number of (pre-microcomputer) machines I have used: 5
so far.  Maintained for a period of time: 2.

mcl

From cmhanson at eschatologist.net  Sat Feb 17 23:45:35 2018
From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 21:45:35 -0800
Subject: LMI Lambda Lispmachine Keyboard aka Space Cadet Keyboad
In-Reply-To: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAKJAyNrk1LNLkqqQVfjDetjCgAAAEAAAANVmM6zVMT9OrCr2ecQ/L2UBAAAAAA==@nefkom.net>
References: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAKJAyNrk1LNLkqqQVfjDetjCgAAAEAAAANVmM6zVMT9OrCr2ecQ/L2UBAAAAAA==@nefkom.net>
Message-ID: <8A928531-0DFB-4642-9778-D90A7F811768@eschatologist.net>

There?s an emulator called LambdaDelta by Daniel Seagraves: https://github.com/dseagrav/ld/

Really though, you should find someone with an LMI Lambda to give the keyboard to. It belongs with its mate.

  ? Chris

Sent from my iPad

> On Feb 17, 2018, at 7:29 AM, Marc Holz via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> 
> 
> I have the keyboard for a LMI Lambda Lispmachine but I'm missing the
> computer itself.
> 
> Is there a simulator or similar available?
> 
> 
> 
> The keyboard is similar like here
> http://world.std.com/~jdostale/kbd/SpaceCadet.html.
> 
> On the left side there is lable with "LMI" and a sticker "Scientific
> Computers Limited".
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a picture showing the actual layout:
> http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/michael/blog/1402/140208-keyboard.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Marc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

From cmhanson at eschatologist.net  Sat Feb 17 23:45:35 2018
From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 21:45:35 -0800
Subject: LMI Lambda Lispmachine Keyboard aka Space Cadet Keyboad
In-Reply-To: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAKJAyNrk1LNLkqqQVfjDetjCgAAAEAAAANVmM6zVMT9OrCr2ecQ/L2UBAAAAAA==@nefkom.net>
References: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAKJAyNrk1LNLkqqQVfjDetjCgAAAEAAAANVmM6zVMT9OrCr2ecQ/L2UBAAAAAA==@nefkom.net>
Message-ID: <8A928531-0DFB-4642-9778-D90A7F811768@eschatologist.net>

There?s an emulator called LambdaDelta by Daniel Seagraves: https://github.com/dseagrav/ld/

Really though, you should find someone with an LMI Lambda to give the keyboard to. It belongs with its mate.

  ? Chris

Sent from my iPad

> On Feb 17, 2018, at 7:29 AM, Marc Holz via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> 
> 
> I have the keyboard for a LMI Lambda Lispmachine but I'm missing the
> computer itself.
> 
> Is there a simulator or similar available?
> 
> 
> 
> The keyboard is similar like here
> http://world.std.com/~jdostale/kbd/SpaceCadet.html.
> 
> On the left side there is lable with "LMI" and a sticker "Scientific
> Computers Limited".
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a picture showing the actual layout:
> http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/michael/blog/1402/140208-keyboard.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Marc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Sat Feb 17 23:47:02 2018
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 05:47:02 +0000
Subject: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!
In-Reply-To: <20180218052448.GA26958@lonesome.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <20180218052448.GA26958@lonesome.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR14MB1600C86A333AEFCB9511B44DA3C90@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>

It was really cool of them to let use look through the storage rooms. A lot of really cool artifacts. I don't know how I missed it while wondering around but in the pictures, there as a Micral.

Another mentioned the lack of HP stuff. I think that was mainly an issue of location and not intent. They did have a lot of DEC stuff.

Dwight


________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Mark Linimon via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2018 9:24:48 PM
To: Michael Brutman; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!

I've looked through a lot of these but had to stop because my eyes were
crossing.  And my parents told me never to do that.

My count of the number of (pre-microcomputer) machines I have used: 5
so far.  Maintained for a period of time: 2.

mcl

From cramcram at gmail.com  Sat Feb 17 21:48:35 2018
From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 19:48:35 -0800
Subject: PDP-8 name plate artwork
Message-ID: <CAC20j8SLuTC19EcX_6hj=pvu1+20xOdEpn_Cadz0yeOnT_XqUw@mail.gmail.com>

The VCF picture album just posted has a shot of a PDP-8e system that looks
like mine.  Except that all 3 of my rack toppers are southwestern
red/orange with no logo as opposed to the one on the right with the DEC,
PDP-8e printing.

Does anyone have a scan/stencil/etc. of that panel available?

Thanks,

Marc

From cctalk at snarc.net  Sat Feb 17 23:57:31 2018
From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 00:57:31 -0500
Subject: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR14MB1600C86A333AEFCB9511B44DA3C90@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218052448.GA26958@lonesome.com>
 <MWHPR14MB1600C86A333AEFCB9511B44DA3C90@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <ce1bec6d-a2c4-a6c8-d29d-f0f9cf05cc56@snarc.net>

> It was really cool of them to let use look through the storage rooms. A lot of really cool artifacts. I don't know how I missed it while wondering around but in the pictures, there as a Micral.

Kevin Savetz and I saw it. It's amazing that LCML owns multiple 
mind-blowing big iron from Cray, DEC, IBM, etc., and yet the museum 
director described the tiny Micral-N as "the rarest thing we own".

From michael.roy.barnes at gmail.com  Sun Feb 18 02:06:40 2018
From: michael.roy.barnes at gmail.com (Mike Barnes)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 03:06:40 -0500
Subject: LMI Lambda Lispmachine Keyboard aka Space Cadet Keyboad
In-Reply-To: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAKJAyNrk1LNLkqqQVfjDetjCgAAAEAAAANVmM6zVMT9OrCr2ecQ/L2UBAAAAAA==@nefkom.net>
References: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAKJAyNrk1LNLkqqQVfjDetjCgAAAEAAAANVmM6zVMT9OrCr2ecQ/L2UBAAAAAA==@nefkom.net>
Message-ID: <CAF4j_M4BbNVpx+SFih5J_etagJLvgxw4xjOW4FjouXhmvLtksw@mail.gmail.com>

Marc,

Probably the best bet for an LMI Lambda emulator is Daniel Seagrave's LD
GitHub project. See:

https://github.com/dseagrav/ld

It has directions on where to get the LMI code (bitsavers) and how to set
up the emulator. I use it quite a bit and it works quite well.

Of course, it has mappings to a regular keyboard, not the LMI keyboard-- so
you would have to create an interface and then change the LD code. Did find
this link to a possible USB interface:

https://web.archive.org/web/20150910154424/http://home.comcast.net/~mmcm/kbd/Technical.html

The LispM mailing list might be a helpful source of information:

http://lists.tunes.org/mailman/listinfo/lispm

Mike

From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com  Sun Feb 18 04:17:20 2018
From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 10:17:20 +0000
Subject: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!
In-Reply-To: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ECB02BBB-DA14-40F1-B54E-FFC57055C0E6@gmail.com>


> On 18 Feb 2018, at 02:55, Michael Brutman via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> For your viewing pleasure ...
> 
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/QPfZ4WXPdIdUo5gn2
> 
> 
> -Mike

A happy hour spent going through those, what a place! Thanks for posting.

?
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs - Celebrating Computing History from 1972 onwards
w: binarydinosaurs.co.uk t: @binarydinosaurs
f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs


From ams at gnu.org  Sun Feb 18 07:26:11 2018
From: ams at gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 08:26:11 -0500
Subject: LMI Lambda Lispmachine Keyboard aka Space Cadet Keyboad
In-Reply-To: <8A928531-0DFB-4642-9778-D90A7F811768@eschatologist.net> (message
 from Chris Hanson via cctalk on Sat, 17 Feb 2018 21:45:35 -0800)
References: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAKJAyNrk1LNLkqqQVfjDetjCgAAAEAAAANVmM6zVMT9OrCr2ecQ/L2UBAAAAAA==@nefkom.net>
 <8A928531-0DFB-4642-9778-D90A7F811768@eschatologist.net>
Message-ID: <E1enOyp-00061D-Ez@fencepost.gnu.org>

   Really though, you should find someone with an LMI Lambda to give
   the keyboard to. It belongs with its mate.

Indeed!  And if you do find a Lambda, then there would be quite a few
people interested in learning more gnarly details about the
architecture.

From ams at gnu.org  Sun Feb 18 07:26:11 2018
From: ams at gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 08:26:11 -0500
Subject: LMI Lambda Lispmachine Keyboard aka Space Cadet Keyboad
In-Reply-To: <8A928531-0DFB-4642-9778-D90A7F811768@eschatologist.net> (message
 from Chris Hanson via cctalk on Sat, 17 Feb 2018 21:45:35 -0800)
References: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAKJAyNrk1LNLkqqQVfjDetjCgAAAEAAAANVmM6zVMT9OrCr2ecQ/L2UBAAAAAA==@nefkom.net>
 <8A928531-0DFB-4642-9778-D90A7F811768@eschatologist.net>
Message-ID: <E1enOyp-00061D-Ez@fencepost.gnu.org>

   Really though, you should find someone with an LMI Lambda to give
   the keyboard to. It belongs with its mate.

Indeed!  And if you do find a Lambda, then there would be quite a few
people interested in learning more gnarly details about the
architecture.

From aek at bitsavers.org  Sun Feb 18 09:51:39 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 07:51:39 -0800
Subject: LMI Lambda Lispmachine Keyboard aka Space Cadet Keyboad
In-Reply-To: <8A928531-0DFB-4642-9778-D90A7F811768@eschatologist.net>
References: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAKJAyNrk1LNLkqqQVfjDetjCgAAAEAAAANVmM6zVMT9OrCr2ecQ/L2UBAAAAAA==@nefkom.net>
 <8A928531-0DFB-4642-9778-D90A7F811768@eschatologist.net>
Message-ID: <70007ce1-4075-7d14-7caa-ad1e8b7ee650@bitsavers.org>



On 2/17/18 9:45 PM, Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote:

> Really though, you should find someone with an LMI Lambda to give the keyboard to. It belongs with its mate.

CHM has two Lambdas, but no keyboards or monitors.
http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102668040
http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102691342

I would be willing to trade one of my own CADR keyboards to get CHM a Lambda keyboard.




From p.gebhardt at ymail.com  Sun Feb 18 11:34:50 2018
From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 17:34:50 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Control Data 841 disk drive's 3-phase power supply resurrection
References: <1657013265.1156785.1518975290130.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1657013265.1156785.1518975290130@mail.yahoo.com>

Hello list,

currently, I am in the process of trying to bring back to life a disk drive installation from Control Data known as "841 Multiple Disk Drive" ( MDD ). From the early '70s. It uses hydraulic disk head actuators! Pictures of the subsystem are here:

http://www.digitalheritage.de/peripherals/cdc/841/841.htm

I started with the power supply. Most of the electrolytic capacitors need to be reformed which is being done.?
As far as I know, some computer installations used 400Hz 3-phase back in the days. Does anybody know, if that is the case for this type of drive systems? I couldn't find any indication so far, except for the input filter that supports up to 400Hz (written on it). 
I've quite some experience with old linear power supplies, but never worked with three-phase supplies, yet.
Has anybody experience with this? Anything particular to be considered?

There is an operator's manual, but there don't seem to be manuals or schematics about this type of CDC drive nor on bitsavers, neither elsewhere on the net. How could help me in pointing out where to get these?
A lot of questions, I know.... :)

Thanks a lot for any of your precious help,
Pierre



------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de

From p.gebhardt at ymail.com  Sun Feb 18 11:34:50 2018
From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 17:34:50 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Control Data 841 disk drive's 3-phase power supply resurrection
References: <1657013265.1156785.1518975290130.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1657013265.1156785.1518975290130@mail.yahoo.com>

Hello list,

currently, I am in the process of trying to bring back to life a disk drive installation from Control Data known as "841 Multiple Disk Drive" ( MDD ). From the early '70s. It uses hydraulic disk head actuators! Pictures of the subsystem are here:

http://www.digitalheritage.de/peripherals/cdc/841/841.htm

I started with the power supply. Most of the electrolytic capacitors need to be reformed which is being done.?
As far as I know, some computer installations used 400Hz 3-phase back in the days. Does anybody know, if that is the case for this type of drive systems? I couldn't find any indication so far, except for the input filter that supports up to 400Hz (written on it). 
I've quite some experience with old linear power supplies, but never worked with three-phase supplies, yet.
Has anybody experience with this? Anything particular to be considered?

There is an operator's manual, but there don't seem to be manuals or schematics about this type of CDC drive nor on bitsavers, neither elsewhere on the net. How could help me in pointing out where to get these?
A lot of questions, I know.... :)

Thanks a lot for any of your precious help,
Pierre



------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Sun Feb 18 12:24:06 2018
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 13:24:06 -0500
Subject: Control Data 841 disk drive's 3-phase power supply resurrection
In-Reply-To: <1657013265.1156785.1518975290130@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1657013265.1156785.1518975290130.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1657013265.1156785.1518975290130@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ABB84915-52BF-43DB-B65D-BBE7FA88719F@comcast.net>



> On Feb 18, 2018, at 12:34 PM, P Gebhardt via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Hello list,
> 
> currently, I am in the process of trying to bring back to life a disk drive installation from Control Data known as "841 Multiple Disk Drive" ( MDD ). From the early '70s. It uses hydraulic disk head actuators! Pictures of the subsystem are here:
> 
> http://www.digitalheritage.de/peripherals/cdc/841/841.htm
> 
> I started with the power supply. Most of the electrolytic capacitors need to be reformed which is being done. 
> As far as I know, some computer installations used 400Hz 3-phase back in the days. Does anybody know, if that is the case for this type of drive systems? I couldn't find any indication so far, except for the input filter that supports up to 400Hz (written on it). 
> I've quite some experience with old linear power supplies, but never worked with three-phase supplies, yet.
> Has anybody experience with this? Anything particular to be considered?

CDC mainframe shops used 400 Hz three-phase power for the CPU and the display console (DD60).  I don't know if it was used in other places.  The advantage of 400 Hz power is smaller transformers and filters; in addition, it was generated by motor-generator units which produce good clean power even if the building receives crummy power from the utility.

> There is an operator's manual, but there don't seem to be manuals or schematics about this type of CDC drive nor on bitsavers, neither elsewhere on the net. How could help me in pointing out where to get these?
> A lot of questions, I know.... :)

There is a by-invitation list of CDC experts and fans, I included a BCC to the list owner on this reply.  There might be help available from that group.

There are two considerations for disk drive power.  Older disk drives often use AC induction motors, which tend to be three-phase motors.  With induction motors, the rotational speed is determined by the motor design and the power line frequency.  But I haven't heard of induction motors operating from 400 Hz power; those would spin quite rapidly indeed unless they had lots of poles.  50 or 60 Hz induction motors are fairly common, which is why you tend to see 3600 rpm nominal rotation specs for a lot of disk drives.

The other aspect is DC power supply design.  If a supply is designed specifically for 400 Hz input, it won't operate properly from 60 Hz mains.  The transformers will be too small, and the filtering inadequate.  But if the spec says 50-400 or 60-400 Hz, that means the transformer and filter sizing is done for mains power (50/60 Hz) and the transformer core is constructed to still have acceptable losses at 400 Hz.  That's not common but I could imagine CDC doing this because of their use of 400 Hz.  If you have such a wide-range device, just feed it mains power and all will be well.  But, say, a CDC 6600 central processor can't be powered by 50 or 60 Hz mains power.

As for 3-phase vs. 1-phase DC power supplies, that just means there are more rectifiers and smaller filters because the ripple is reduced by rectifying 3 phases.  You might be able to get away with feeding such a device 1-phaser power but it would probably be marginal, and 3 phase would be a better option if you can get it.  There are converters that do a decent job, and depending on where you live you might just get it from the power company.

	paul


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Sun Feb 18 12:24:06 2018
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 13:24:06 -0500
Subject: Control Data 841 disk drive's 3-phase power supply resurrection
In-Reply-To: <1657013265.1156785.1518975290130@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1657013265.1156785.1518975290130.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1657013265.1156785.1518975290130@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ABB84915-52BF-43DB-B65D-BBE7FA88719F@comcast.net>



> On Feb 18, 2018, at 12:34 PM, P Gebhardt via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Hello list,
> 
> currently, I am in the process of trying to bring back to life a disk drive installation from Control Data known as "841 Multiple Disk Drive" ( MDD ). From the early '70s. It uses hydraulic disk head actuators! Pictures of the subsystem are here:
> 
> http://www.digitalheritage.de/peripherals/cdc/841/841.htm
> 
> I started with the power supply. Most of the electrolytic capacitors need to be reformed which is being done. 
> As far as I know, some computer installations used 400Hz 3-phase back in the days. Does anybody know, if that is the case for this type of drive systems? I couldn't find any indication so far, except for the input filter that supports up to 400Hz (written on it). 
> I've quite some experience with old linear power supplies, but never worked with three-phase supplies, yet.
> Has anybody experience with this? Anything particular to be considered?

CDC mainframe shops used 400 Hz three-phase power for the CPU and the display console (DD60).  I don't know if it was used in other places.  The advantage of 400 Hz power is smaller transformers and filters; in addition, it was generated by motor-generator units which produce good clean power even if the building receives crummy power from the utility.

> There is an operator's manual, but there don't seem to be manuals or schematics about this type of CDC drive nor on bitsavers, neither elsewhere on the net. How could help me in pointing out where to get these?
> A lot of questions, I know.... :)

There is a by-invitation list of CDC experts and fans, I included a BCC to the list owner on this reply.  There might be help available from that group.

There are two considerations for disk drive power.  Older disk drives often use AC induction motors, which tend to be three-phase motors.  With induction motors, the rotational speed is determined by the motor design and the power line frequency.  But I haven't heard of induction motors operating from 400 Hz power; those would spin quite rapidly indeed unless they had lots of poles.  50 or 60 Hz induction motors are fairly common, which is why you tend to see 3600 rpm nominal rotation specs for a lot of disk drives.

The other aspect is DC power supply design.  If a supply is designed specifically for 400 Hz input, it won't operate properly from 60 Hz mains.  The transformers will be too small, and the filtering inadequate.  But if the spec says 50-400 or 60-400 Hz, that means the transformer and filter sizing is done for mains power (50/60 Hz) and the transformer core is constructed to still have acceptable losses at 400 Hz.  That's not common but I could imagine CDC doing this because of their use of 400 Hz.  If you have such a wide-range device, just feed it mains power and all will be well.  But, say, a CDC 6600 central processor can't be powered by 50 or 60 Hz mains power.

As for 3-phase vs. 1-phase DC power supplies, that just means there are more rectifiers and smaller filters because the ripple is reduced by rectifying 3 phases.  You might be able to get away with feeding such a device 1-phaser power but it would probably be marginal, and 3 phase would be a better option if you can get it.  There are converters that do a decent job, and depending on where you live you might just get it from the power company.

	paul


From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Feb 18 12:33:11 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 10:33:11 -0800
Subject: Control Data 841 disk drive's 3-phase power supply resurrection
In-Reply-To: <1657013265.1156785.1518975290130@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1657013265.1156785.1518975290130.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1657013265.1156785.1518975290130@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4f46e5ab-a818-39bf-2e52-e3723b6e677d@sydex.com>

On 02/18/2018 09:34 AM, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote:
> Hello list,
> 
> currently, I am in the process of trying to bring back to life a disk drive installation from Control Data known as "841 Multiple Disk Drive" ( MDD ). From the early '70s. It uses hydraulic disk head actuators! Pictures of the subsystem are here:
> 
> http://www.digitalheritage.de/peripherals/cdc/841/841.htm
> 
> I started with the power supply. Most of the electrolytic capacitors need to be reformed which is being done.?
> As far as I know, some computer installations used 400Hz 3-phase back in the days. Does anybody know, if that is the case for this type of drive systems? I couldn't find any indication so far, except for the input filter that supports up to 400Hz (written on it). 
> I've quite some experience with old linear power supplies, but never worked with three-phase supplies, yet.
> Has anybody experience with this? Anything particular to be considered?
> 
> There is an operator's manual, but there don't seem to be manuals or schematics about this type of CDC drive nor on bitsavers, neither elsewhere on the net. How could help me in pointing out where to get these?
> A lot of questions, I know.... :)

The claim about the "only CDC disk drive with hydraulic positioner"  is
false.   Starting with the Bryant 6603, I believe that the 808 and very
rare 821 also used hydraulics.   Voice-coil positioners started to be
used with the 844 drives.   I don't recall what the 854 used, as it
wasn't very common on big CDC iron.

--Chuck


From p.gebhardt at ymail.com  Sun Feb 18 12:46:49 2018
From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 18:46:49 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Control Data 841 disk drive's 3-phase power supply resurrection
In-Reply-To: <4f46e5ab-a818-39bf-2e52-e3723b6e677d@sydex.com>
References: <1657013265.1156785.1518975290130.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1657013265.1156785.1518975290130@mail.yahoo.com>
 <4f46e5ab-a818-39bf-2e52-e3723b6e677d@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <1083719264.1204398.1518979610011@mail.yahoo.com>

>The claim about the "only CDC disk drive with hydraulic positioner"? is
>false.? Starting with the Bryant 6603, I believe that the 808 and very
>rare 821 also used hydraulics.? Voice-coil positioners started to be
>used with the 844 drives.? I don't recall what the 854 used, as it
>wasn't very common on big CDC iron.
>
>--Chuck
Chuck, thanks a lot for your reply and for these insights! I indeed wasn't aware that within CDC, the 808 and 821 worked-with hydraulics, too. I will update the description on the web accordingly!The 85x drives don't use a hydraulic positioner. To my understanding, they used a solenoid and a carriage assembly that is controlled by a photo-cell, -transistor and a timing wheel with slots. 
All the best,Pierre
  

From elson at pico-systems.com  Sun Feb 18 13:04:38 2018
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 13:04:38 -0600
Subject: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!
In-Reply-To: <ECB02BBB-DA14-40F1-B54E-FFC57055C0E6@gmail.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ECB02BBB-DA14-40F1-B54E-FFC57055C0E6@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5A89CE46.1010202@pico-systems.com>

On 02/18/2018 04:17 AM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote:
>> On 18 Feb 2018, at 02:55, Michael Brutman via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> For your viewing pleasure ...
>>
>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/QPfZ4WXPdIdUo5gn2
>>
>>
>> -Mike
> A happy hour spent going through those, what a place! Thanks for posting.
>
>
Wow, even a Bendix G-15 in there (although with Control Data 
logo). Talk about a restoration project!!!

Jon

From elson at pico-systems.com  Sun Feb 18 13:10:21 2018
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 13:10:21 -0600
Subject: Control Data 841 disk drive's 3-phase power supply resurrection
In-Reply-To: <1657013265.1156785.1518975290130@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1657013265.1156785.1518975290130.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1657013265.1156785.1518975290130@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5A89CF9D.2080109@pico-systems.com>

On 02/18/2018 11:34 AM, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote:
> Hello list,
>
> currently, I am in the process of trying to bring back to life a disk drive installation from Control Data known as "841 Multiple Disk Drive" ( MDD ). From the early '70s. It uses hydraulic disk head actuators! Pictures of the subsystem are here:
>
> http://www.digitalheritage.de/peripherals/cdc/841/841.htm
>
> I started with the power supply. Most of the electrolytic capacitors need to be reformed which is being done.
> As far as I know, some computer installations used 400Hz 3-phase back in the days. Does anybody know, if that is the case for this type of drive systems? I couldn't find any indication so far, except for the input filter that supports up to 400Hz (written on it).
> I've quite some experience with old linear power supplies, but never worked with three-phase supplies, yet.
> Has anybody experience with this? Anything particular to be considered?
>
> There is an operator's manual, but there don't seem to be manuals or schematics about this type of CDC drive nor on bitsavers, neither elsewhere on the net. How could help me in pointing out where to get these?
> A lot of questions, I know.... :)
>
>
If the motors ran off 400 Hz, they would have to have LOTS 
of poles to keep speed within reason.  A two-pole motor on 
400 Hz would run close to 24000 RPM.  My guess is they did 
not run the spindles and blowers off 400 Hz, as a momentary 
dip would not cause the pack to lose much RPM.  The pack has 
a huge rotational inertia.

The electronics COULD be run from 400 Hz.  If a linear 
supply, then the transformers would seem to be insanely 
small for the power delivered.  That's your first clue.  It 
was quite common for CDC and other systems to run the CPU 
and closely-coupled components off 400 Hz created by rotary 
converters.  (The IBM 360 was one system that didn't, they 
used electronic converters to produce single-phase 2.5 KHz 
power.)

Jon

From aek at bitsavers.org  Sun Feb 18 13:24:30 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 11:24:30 -0800
Subject: Control Data 841 disk drive's 3-phase power supply resurrection
In-Reply-To: <1657013265.1156785.1518975290130@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1657013265.1156785.1518975290130.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1657013265.1156785.1518975290130@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c4201aff-6efb-ee4e-23e8-691351a818ad@bitsavers.org>



On 2/18/18 9:34 AM, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote:
> Hello list,
> 
> currently, I am in the process of trying to bring back to life a disk drive installation from Control Data known as "841 Multiple Disk Drive" ( MDD ).

"BM101" shown in the pictures is what you should be looking for

90310500_Literature_Catalog_Jan85.pdf on bitsavers page 22 shows

BM101/103 multiple disk drive gen desc    p/n 41248900
oper, instal ckout maint ce man
theory,diagrams, wire list                p/n 41249000
parts data                                p/n 41243700

'412' is Normandale operations code #




I've got 41249000

./___UNSORTED/41249000J_BM101_Theory_jun72.tar



From linimon at lonesome.com  Sun Feb 18 13:30:42 2018
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 13:30:42 -0600
Subject: Bendix G-15 [was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
In-Reply-To: <5A89CE46.1010202@pico-systems.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ECB02BBB-DA14-40F1-B54E-FFC57055C0E6@gmail.com>
 <5A89CE46.1010202@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <20180218193042.GA30809@lonesome.com>

On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 01:04:38PM -0600, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
> Wow, even a Bendix G-15 in there (although with Control Data logo).

Nope, look again, there are two :-)

> Talk about a restoration project!!!

AFAIK these are the only ones being restored.

The last time I checked, the remaining inventory was:

 - Smithsonian (S/N 1)
 - CHM (on static display)
 - these 2
 - the one at MARCH
 - a University in Australia who was attempting to restore theirs

My G-15 website is pretty stale but here it is:

  http://www.obscurecomputers.org/g15/index.html

The site is in dire need of attention; helpers wanted :-)

mcl

From aek at bitsavers.org  Sun Feb 18 13:34:38 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 11:34:38 -0800
Subject: Bendix G-15 [was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
In-Reply-To: <20180218193042.GA30809@lonesome.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ECB02BBB-DA14-40F1-B54E-FFC57055C0E6@gmail.com>
 <5A89CE46.1010202@pico-systems.com> <20180218193042.GA30809@lonesome.com>
Message-ID: <1b6cd3a5-f632-cdc3-32d9-6d45de29c7de@bitsavers.org>



On 2/18/18 11:30 AM, Mark Linimon via cctalk wrote:

>  - the one at MARCH

on loan. there are supposed to be more in DC



From mark at wickensonline.co.uk  Sun Feb 18 13:35:11 2018
From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 19:35:11 +0000
Subject: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!
In-Reply-To: <5A89CE46.1010202@pico-systems.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ECB02BBB-DA14-40F1-B54E-FFC57055C0E6@gmail.com>
 <5A89CE46.1010202@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <CABp7FHV6SJTZu7kwz7pbiNVz=uYd5HnyRajyaGW2rPFMBWYOAA@mail.gmail.com>

What an amazing selection of hardware and software (people).
Thank you for sharing your photos.

Mark.

On 18 February 2018 at 19:04, Jon Elson via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> On 02/18/2018 04:17 AM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote:
>
>> On 18 Feb 2018, at 02:55, Michael Brutman via cctalk <
>>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> For your viewing pleasure ...
>>>
>>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/QPfZ4WXPdIdUo5gn2
>>>
>>>
>>> -Mike
>>>
>> A happy hour spent going through those, what a place! Thanks for posting.
>>
>>
>> Wow, even a Bendix G-15 in there (although with Control Data logo). Talk
> about a restoration project!!!
>
> Jon
>

From aek at bitsavers.org  Sun Feb 18 13:39:45 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 11:39:45 -0800
Subject: Bendix G-15 [was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
In-Reply-To: <20180218193042.GA30809@lonesome.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ECB02BBB-DA14-40F1-B54E-FFC57055C0E6@gmail.com>
 <5A89CE46.1010202@pico-systems.com> <20180218193042.GA30809@lonesome.com>
Message-ID: <857864d4-da32-9a25-9f6e-3e82ef6bba13@bitsavers.org>



On 2/18/18 11:30 AM, Mark Linimon via cctalk wrote:

> My G-15 website is pretty stale but here it is:
> 
>   http://www.obscurecomputers.org/g15/index.html


and as far as I know, Paul Pierce still has the CDC users group paper tapes
it didn't come with his G-15 afaik



From bhilpert at shaw.ca  Sun Feb 18 13:53:50 2018
From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 11:53:50 -0800
Subject: Bendix G-15 [was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
In-Reply-To: <20180218193042.GA30809@lonesome.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ECB02BBB-DA14-40F1-B54E-FFC57055C0E6@gmail.com>
 <5A89CE46.1010202@pico-systems.com> <20180218193042.GA30809@lonesome.com>
Message-ID: <A07D7A57-DA07-4670-B697-E8D484FFBA0E@shaw.ca>

On 2018-Feb-18, at 11:30 AM, Mark Linimon via cctalk wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 01:04:38PM -0600, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
>> Wow, even a Bendix G-15 in there (although with Control Data logo).
> 
> Nope, look again, there are two :-)
> 
>> Talk about a restoration project!!!
> 
> AFAIK these are the only ones being restored.
> 
> The last time I checked, the remaining inventory was:
> 
> - Smithsonian (S/N 1)
> - CHM (on static display)
> - these 2
> - the one at MARCH
> - a University in Australia who was attempting to restore theirs
> 
> My G-15 website is pretty stale but here it is:
> 
>  http://www.obscurecomputers.org/g15/index.html
> 
> The site is in dire need of attention; helpers wanted :-)


Paul Pierce has a G-15:
		http://www.piercefuller.com/collect/bendix/index.html

Or he did, ca 2001.

I would so like to be restoring a tube computer.

How is Cory's LGP-30 project going, if he's reading?


From derschjo at gmail.com  Sun Feb 18 13:55:04 2018
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 11:55:04 -0800
Subject: Bendix G-15 [was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
In-Reply-To: <20180218193042.GA30809@lonesome.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ECB02BBB-DA14-40F1-B54E-FFC57055C0E6@gmail.com>
 <5A89CE46.1010202@pico-systems.com> <20180218193042.GA30809@lonesome.com>
Message-ID: <bb837675-8dfb-3877-663a-c871b68c375d@gmail.com>

On 2/18/2018 11:30 AM, Mark Linimon via cctalk wrote:

> On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 01:04:38PM -0600, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
>> Wow, even a Bendix G-15 in there (although with Control Data logo).
> Nope, look again, there are two :-)

Small correction: there are three -- two upstairs, one in the basement 
(with CDC badging) :)

- Josh


From aek at bitsavers.org  Sun Feb 18 13:57:31 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 11:57:31 -0800
Subject: Bendix G-15 [was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
In-Reply-To: <A07D7A57-DA07-4670-B697-E8D484FFBA0E@shaw.ca>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ECB02BBB-DA14-40F1-B54E-FFC57055C0E6@gmail.com>
 <5A89CE46.1010202@pico-systems.com> <20180218193042.GA30809@lonesome.com>
 <A07D7A57-DA07-4670-B697-E8D484FFBA0E@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <d628859d-003e-0150-0bf6-90e05bed9a8e@bitsavers.org>



On 2/18/18 11:53 AM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote:

> Paul Pierce has a G-15:
> 		http://www.piercefuller.com/collect/bendix/index.html
> 
> Or he did, ca 2001.

Paul donated it to CHM

http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102728118



From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Sun Feb 18 14:05:16 2018
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 15:05:16 -0500
Subject: Bendix G-15 [was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
In-Reply-To: <20180218193042.GA30809@lonesome.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ECB02BBB-DA14-40F1-B54E-FFC57055C0E6@gmail.com>
 <5A89CE46.1010202@pico-systems.com>
 <20180218193042.GA30809@lonesome.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+df-DTK3ZDFGcuNa0eHqGO1--m5cFVDQAuoNkefnYeY30g@mail.gmail.com>

I will just leave this link right here...

https://www.youtube.com/user/uniservo

Thanks...

--
Will

On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 2:30 PM, Mark Linimon via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 01:04:38PM -0600, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
>> Wow, even a Bendix G-15 in there (although with Control Data logo).
>
> Nope, look again, there are two :-)
>
>> Talk about a restoration project!!!
>
> AFAIK these are the only ones being restored.
>
> The last time I checked, the remaining inventory was:
>
>  - Smithsonian (S/N 1)
>  - CHM (on static display)
>  - these 2
>  - the one at MARCH
>  - a University in Australia who was attempting to restore theirs
>
> My G-15 website is pretty stale but here it is:
>
>   http://www.obscurecomputers.org/g15/index.html
>
> The site is in dire need of attention; helpers wanted :-)
>
> mcl

From linimon at lonesome.com  Sun Feb 18 14:07:46 2018
From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 14:07:46 -0600
Subject: Bendix G-15 [was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
In-Reply-To: <bb837675-8dfb-3877-663a-c871b68c375d@gmail.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ECB02BBB-DA14-40F1-B54E-FFC57055C0E6@gmail.com>
 <5A89CE46.1010202@pico-systems.com>
 <20180218193042.GA30809@lonesome.com>
 <bb837675-8dfb-3877-663a-c871b68c375d@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20180218200745.GA31029@lonesome.com>

On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 11:55:04AM -0800, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote:
> Small correction: there are three -- two upstairs, one in the basement (with
> CDC badging) :)

Well, get to work guys, I'd like to be able to sit at the IBM typewriter
one more time, just for old time's sake :-)

May I ask which serial numbers these are?

mcl

From aek at bitsavers.org  Sun Feb 18 14:09:32 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 12:09:32 -0800
Subject: Control Data 841 disk drive's 3-phase power supply resurrection
In-Reply-To: <c4201aff-6efb-ee4e-23e8-691351a818ad@bitsavers.org>
References: <1657013265.1156785.1518975290130.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1657013265.1156785.1518975290130@mail.yahoo.com>
 <c4201aff-6efb-ee4e-23e8-691351a818ad@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <30d67637-14b5-99b2-2813-10a46dd5a846@bitsavers.org>



On 2/18/18 11:24 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:

> I've got 41249000
> 
> ./___UNSORTED/41249000J_BM101_Theory_jun72.tar
> 
> 

http://bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/discs/BM101/41249000J_BM101_Multiple_Disk_Drive_Theory_Jun72.pdf


From bhilpert at shaw.ca  Sun Feb 18 14:20:15 2018
From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 12:20:15 -0800
Subject: Bendix G-15 [was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
In-Reply-To: <d628859d-003e-0150-0bf6-90e05bed9a8e@bitsavers.org>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ECB02BBB-DA14-40F1-B54E-FFC57055C0E6@gmail.com>
 <5A89CE46.1010202@pico-systems.com> <20180218193042.GA30809@lonesome.com>
 <A07D7A57-DA07-4670-B697-E8D484FFBA0E@shaw.ca>
 <d628859d-003e-0150-0bf6-90e05bed9a8e@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <100ACF79-E5B7-4874-BA41-4DF392C4A72A@shaw.ca>

On 2018-Feb-18, at 11:57 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> On 2/18/18 11:53 AM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> Paul Pierce has a G-15:
>> 		http://www.piercefuller.com/collect/bendix/index.html
>> 
>> Or he did, ca 2001.
> 
> Paul donated it to CHM
> 
> http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102728118

Oh, OK.
I take it Paul downsized a fair bit. I think you (or someone) mentioned previously his 709 went to the CHM.
Anything else of the big stuff?



From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Sun Feb 18 14:51:04 2018
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 21:51:04 +0100
Subject: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!
In-Reply-To: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20180218205103.GG21580@Update.UU.SE>

*gasp* Is that a PDP-6 front panel. I assume it's the one from 
wireless hill that found it's way there.

/P

On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 06:55:09PM -0800, Michael Brutman via cctalk wrote:
> For your viewing pleasure ...
> 
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/QPfZ4WXPdIdUo5gn2
> 
> 
> -Mike

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Feb 18 15:29:00 2018
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 13:29:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!
In-Reply-To: <CABp7FHV6SJTZu7kwz7pbiNVz=uYd5HnyRajyaGW2rPFMBWYOAA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ECB02BBB-DA14-40F1-B54E-FFC57055C0E6@gmail.com>
 <5A89CE46.1010202@pico-systems.com>
 <CABp7FHV6SJTZu7kwz7pbiNVz=uYd5HnyRajyaGW2rPFMBWYOAA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802181328160.29712@shell.lmi.net>

> What an amazing selection of hardware and software (people).

"wetware"

From aek at bitsavers.org  Sun Feb 18 15:36:41 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 13:36:41 -0800
Subject: Bendix G-15 [was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
In-Reply-To: <100ACF79-E5B7-4874-BA41-4DF392C4A72A@shaw.ca>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ECB02BBB-DA14-40F1-B54E-FFC57055C0E6@gmail.com>
 <5A89CE46.1010202@pico-systems.com> <20180218193042.GA30809@lonesome.com>
 <A07D7A57-DA07-4670-B697-E8D484FFBA0E@shaw.ca>
 <d628859d-003e-0150-0bf6-90e05bed9a8e@bitsavers.org>
 <100ACF79-E5B7-4874-BA41-4DF392C4A72A@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <88673c18-ab7b-fcf8-9655-2db04bb7798f@bitsavers.org>

the 7094 and 650

On 2/18/18 12:20 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote:
> On 2018-Feb-18, at 11:57 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
>> On 2/18/18 11:53 AM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote:
>>
>>> Paul Pierce has a G-15:
>>> 		http://www.piercefuller.com/collect/bendix/index.html
>>>
>>> Or he did, ca 2001.
>>
>> Paul donated it to CHM
>>
>> http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102728118
> 
> Oh, OK.
> I take it Paul downsized a fair bit. I think you (or someone) mentioned previously his 709 went to the CHM.
> Anything else of the big stuff?
> 
> 


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Sun Feb 18 15:53:50 2018
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 13:53:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802181328160.29712@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ECB02BBB-DA14-40F1-B54E-FFC57055C0E6@gmail.com>
 <5A89CE46.1010202@pico-systems.com>
 <CABp7FHV6SJTZu7kwz7pbiNVz=uYd5HnyRajyaGW2rPFMBWYOAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802181328160.29712@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802181352560.11503@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>

Here's another pile of photos.  These are mostly of the basement and 3rd 
floor storage areas.

https://imgur.com/a/ti86K

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From cctalk at snarc.net  Sun Feb 18 13:37:32 2018
From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 14:37:32 -0500
Subject: Bendix G-15 [was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
In-Reply-To: <20180218193042.GA30809@lonesome.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ECB02BBB-DA14-40F1-B54E-FFC57055C0E6@gmail.com>
 <5A89CE46.1010202@pico-systems.com> <20180218193042.GA30809@lonesome.com>
Message-ID: <9db6b90a-cbcb-a93b-8c11-07605c6964f6@snarc.net>

>> Wow, even a Bendix G-15 in there (although with Control Data logo).
> 
> Nope, look again, there are two :-)

Actually they have three.


> The last time I checked, the remaining inventory was:
> 
>   - Smithsonian (S/N 1)
>   - CHM (on static display)
>   - these 2
>   - the one at MARCH
>   - a University in Australia who was attempting to restore theirs

MARCH no longer exists. It's VCFed Mid-Atlantic chapter. :)

I know of a few in private hands. And I know of someone who has two or 
three that he's looking to sell.

From aek at bitsavers.org  Sun Feb 18 17:06:57 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 15:06:57 -0800
Subject: Control Data 841 disk drive's 3-phase power supply resurrection
In-Reply-To: <30d67637-14b5-99b2-2813-10a46dd5a846@bitsavers.org>
References: <1657013265.1156785.1518975290130.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1657013265.1156785.1518975290130@mail.yahoo.com>
 <c4201aff-6efb-ee4e-23e8-691351a818ad@bitsavers.org>
 <30d67637-14b5-99b2-2813-10a46dd5a846@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <0ee8ad88-5351-48ff-8999-1d17b1b82209@bitsavers.org>

I've also uploaded manuals for the BM1A5 and 9461, which may also be of help.

The BM1A5 looks similar to the BM101, and I had all three manuals for it scanned.

The 841 looks very similar to the IBM 2314, down to putting multiple Drives in
a rack you had to slide out to swap packs.

On 2/18/18 12:09 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:

> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/discs/BM101/41249000J_BM101_Multiple_Disk_Drive_Theory_Jun72.pdf
> 


From alan at alanlee.org  Sun Feb 18 17:14:49 2018
From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 18:14:49 -0500
Subject: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!
In-Reply-To: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ca64c2f505c8235b3912f8f827f596d6@alanlee.org>


Who's exhibit was this?  And did it win best in show?

https://www.atlhcs.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/0211181006-e1518571107250-768x1024.jpg

-Alan

On 2018-02-17 21:55, Michael Brutman via cctalk wrote:
> For your viewing pleasure ...
> 
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/QPfZ4WXPdIdUo5gn2
> 
> 
> -Mike

From aek at bitsavers.org  Sun Feb 18 17:14:58 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 15:14:58 -0800
Subject: Control Data 841 disk drive's 3-phase power supply resurrection
In-Reply-To: <1657013265.1156785.1518975290130@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1657013265.1156785.1518975290130.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1657013265.1156785.1518975290130@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <e69d2bd8-ec75-e5cf-e556-a603f2313031@bitsavers.org>



On 2/18/18 9:34 AM, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote:

> As far as I know, some computer installations used 400Hz 3-phase back in the days. Does anybody know, if that is the case for this type of drive systems?

Looking at the manuals, it is 3-phase 50Hz, with the phases split between different parts of the drive.



From aek at bitsavers.org  Sun Feb 18 17:16:22 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 15:16:22 -0800
Subject: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!
In-Reply-To: <ca64c2f505c8235b3912f8f827f596d6@alanlee.org>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ca64c2f505c8235b3912f8f827f596d6@alanlee.org>
Message-ID: <cdf2259c-6bb8-41a9-10a9-e1c78e198b85@bitsavers.org>

would have been funnier if it said Mac Pro
https://www.apple.com/mac-pro/

On 2/18/18 3:14 PM, alan--- via cctalk wrote:
> 
> Who's exhibit was this?? And did it win best in show?
> 
> https://www.atlhcs.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/0211181006-e1518571107250-768x1024.jpg


From aap at papnet.eu  Sun Feb 18 17:29:18 2018
From: aap at papnet.eu (Angelo Papenhoff)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 00:29:18 +0100
Subject: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!
In-Reply-To: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>

On 17/02/18, Michael Brutman via cctalk wrote:
> For your viewing pleasure ...
> 
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/QPfZ4WXPdIdUo5gn2

Thanks!

I'm a bit late to the party but I just added a bunch of photos to it.
I had to contain myself not to add all the PDP-5,6,7,10 photos :)

All of my photos from VCF and LCM can be found here:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/eS2w2Ir3yWFPmpHn2
Some were for documentation purposes (pdp-7), I hope you don't get bored.

Definitely check out the video of the Alto being used as a terminal
to WAITS running on one of the KL10s! Quite at the end.


aap

From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Sun Feb 18 17:38:16 2018
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 17:38:16 -0600
Subject: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!
In-Reply-To: <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs23S54v0=hLSPJC5+xf93x2CsFrG1jS7CZohHL1bBvRffQ@mail.gmail.com>

not allot of phillips stuff in north amarica is there?

On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 5:29 PM, Angelo Papenhoff via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 17/02/18, Michael Brutman via cctalk wrote:
> > For your viewing pleasure ...
> >
> > https://photos.app.goo.gl/QPfZ4WXPdIdUo5gn2
>
> Thanks!
>
> I'm a bit late to the party but I just added a bunch of photos to it.
> I had to contain myself not to add all the PDP-5,6,7,10 photos :)
>
> All of my photos from VCF and LCM can be found here:
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/eS2w2Ir3yWFPmpHn2
> Some were for documentation purposes (pdp-7), I hope you don't get bored.
>
> Definitely check out the video of the Alto being used as a terminal
> to WAITS running on one of the KL10s! Quite at the end.
>
>
> aap
>

From couryhouse at aol.com  Sun Feb 18 17:40:28 2018
From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 18:40:28 -0500
Subject: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs23S54v0=hLSPJC5+xf93x2CsFrG1jS7CZohHL1bBvRffQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <161ab4a4913-c86-15eb2@webjas-vae073.srv.aolmail.net>

although we have phillips ?broadcast ?gear! Love our ?LDK-20 camera and camera chains!
?
Ed# ?www.smecc.org?
?
?
In a message dated 2/18/2018 4:38:22 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:

?
 not allot of phillips stuff in north amarica is there?

On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 5:29 PM, Angelo Papenhoff via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 17/02/18, Michael Brutman via cctalk wrote:
> > For your viewing pleasure ...
> >
> > https://photos.app.goo.gl/QPfZ4WXPdIdUo5gn2
>
> Thanks!
>
> I'm a bit late to the party but I just added a bunch of photos to it.
> I had to contain myself not to add all the PDP-5,6,7,10 photos :)
>
> All of my photos from VCF and LCM can be found here:
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/eS2w2Ir3yWFPmpHn2
> Some were for documentation purposes (pdp-7), I hope you don't get bored.
>
> Definitely check out the video of the Alto being used as a terminal
> to WAITS running on one of the KL10s! Quite at the end.
>
>
> aap
>

From steven at malikoff.com  Sun Feb 18 17:46:10 2018
From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 09:46:10 +1000
Subject: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802181352560.11503@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ECB02BBB-DA14-40F1-B54E-FFC57055C0E6@gmail.com>
 <5A89CE46.1010202@pico-systems.com>
 <CABp7FHV6SJTZu7kwz7pbiNVz=uYd5HnyRajyaGW2rPFMBWYOAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802181328160.29712@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802181352560.11503@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <37605e92e366ffb106f0602c330c8015.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>

Gene said
> Here's another pile of photos.  These are mostly of the basement and 3rd
> floor storage areas.
>
> https://imgur.com/a/ti86K
>
> g.

So it's true. The Mod 40 really was damaged and the console lever tips misplaced during their acquisition of it.
I had had it on my bucket list to see it when it was still here in Oz (Perth), as it was highly likely my dad
made service calls to it when it was in operation at the Uni.
I guess it was the last mostly complete 360 in Australia.
Oh well these things happen. I'm sure they'll find the tips and restore it sometime, which would be good.

Steve.


From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Feb 18 18:07:51 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 16:07:51 -0800
Subject: Control Data 841 disk drive's 3-phase power supply resurrection
In-Reply-To: <e69d2bd8-ec75-e5cf-e556-a603f2313031@bitsavers.org>
References: <1657013265.1156785.1518975290130.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1657013265.1156785.1518975290130@mail.yahoo.com>
 <e69d2bd8-ec75-e5cf-e556-a603f2313031@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <cdb07efc-0a45-e7d5-2942-42396f402ea9@sydex.com>

On 02/18/2018 03:14 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
> On 2/18/18 9:34 AM, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> As far as I know, some computer installations used 400Hz 3-phase
>> back in the days. Does anybody know, if that is the case for this
>> type of drive systems?
> 
> Looking at the manuals, it is 3-phase 50Hz, with the phases split
> between different parts of the drive.
Generally, the electromechanical stuff (motors) was run from 208V
3-phase and often, the electronics from 400Hz.

At least that's what I recall.

--Chuck

From aek at bitsavers.org  Sun Feb 18 18:55:01 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 16:55:01 -0800
Subject: Control Data 841 disk drive's 3-phase power supply resurrection
In-Reply-To: <cdb07efc-0a45-e7d5-2942-42396f402ea9@sydex.com>
References: <1657013265.1156785.1518975290130.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1657013265.1156785.1518975290130@mail.yahoo.com>
 <e69d2bd8-ec75-e5cf-e556-a603f2313031@bitsavers.org>
 <cdb07efc-0a45-e7d5-2942-42396f402ea9@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <ebf42b00-6144-de7c-85f8-8da292413152@bitsavers.org>



On 2/18/18 4:07 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

> Generally, the electromechanical stuff (motors) was run from 208V
> 3-phase and often, the electronics from 400Hz.
> 
> At least that's what I recall.
> 
> --Chuck
> 

that isn't what the schematic looks like.
there is a low voltage transformer hung off one of the phases


From healyzh at avanthar.com  Sun Feb 18 19:41:55 2018
From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 17:41:55 -0800
Subject: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!
In-Reply-To: <cdf2259c-6bb8-41a9-10a9-e1c78e198b85@bitsavers.org>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ca64c2f505c8235b3912f8f827f596d6@alanlee.org>
 <cdf2259c-6bb8-41a9-10a9-e1c78e198b85@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <5A23B7BD-C94B-40B8-8F78-0F236732B3CC@avanthar.com>

I?m typing this on a Late-2010 Mac Pro.  That was exactly what I thought when I saw that photo.  I really hope the next model is worth owning, as I?ve seen zero reason to upgrade to a Trashcan.

Zane




> On Feb 18, 2018, at 3:16 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> would have been funnier if it said Mac Pro
> https://www.apple.com/mac-pro/
> 
> On 2/18/18 3:14 PM, alan--- via cctalk wrote:
>> 
>> Who's exhibit was this?  And did it win best in show?
>> 
>> https://www.atlhcs.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/0211181006-e1518571107250-768x1024.jpg
> 


From healyzh at avanthar.com  Sun Feb 18 19:52:48 2018
From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 17:52:48 -0800
Subject: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!
In-Reply-To: <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
Message-ID: <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>


> On Feb 18, 2018, at 3:29 PM, Angelo Papenhoff via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On 17/02/18, Michael Brutman via cctalk wrote:
>> For your viewing pleasure ...
>> 
>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/QPfZ4WXPdIdUo5gn2
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> I'm a bit late to the party but I just added a bunch of photos to it.
> I had to contain myself not to add all the PDP-5,6,7,10 photos :)
> 
> All of my photos from VCF and LCM can be found here:
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/eS2w2Ir3yWFPmpHn2
> Some were for documentation purposes (pdp-7), I hope you don't get bored.
> 
> Definitely check out the video of the Alto being used as a terminal
> to WAITS running on one of the KL10s! Quite at the end.
> 
> 
> aap

What?s not to love about DEC photo?s?

What do they have up there for Honeywell?  Any DPS-8?s?  I know they should have at least a box of GCOS-8 manuals (in hindsight, the only manuals I regret sending up there).

Zane



From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com  Sun Feb 18 20:25:35 2018
From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 20:25:35 -0600
Subject: Bendix G-15 [was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
In-Reply-To: <A07D7A57-DA07-4670-B697-E8D484FFBA0E@shaw.ca>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ECB02BBB-DA14-40F1-B54E-FFC57055C0E6@gmail.com>
 <5A89CE46.1010202@pico-systems.com> <20180218193042.GA30809@lonesome.com>
 <A07D7A57-DA07-4670-B697-E8D484FFBA0E@shaw.ca>
Message-ID: <8D523584-3885-4049-9E42-34E63AE6B58F@gmail.com>


On Feb 18, 2018, at 1:53 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote:

> 
> Paul Pierce has a G-15:
> 		http://www.piercefuller.com/collect/bendix/index.html
> 
> Or he did, ca 2001.
> 
> I would so like to be restoring a tube computer.
> 
> How is Cory's LGP-30 project going, if he's reading?
> 

Looks like I spot Paul's LGP-30s there as well. Good for parts, but I understand the drums are unsalvageable. 

I'm at a temporary standstill with mine due to an issue with two of the recirc registers, problem believed to be at the drum. Unlike a lot of 'other' gear, I have to tread lightly on this stage of the troubleshooting and have been keeping my eyes out for the correct miniature Winchester connectors to be able to switch in/out the heads. So, not a lot of progress has been made since last spring, but I did bring the machine up last month to exercise the bearings and Flexowriter. Also fabbed-up and installed replacement 'wings' for the control panel which are missing from practically all of them, so it's at least looking better.

Jurgen Muller's LittleGP-30 kit has been fun to put together, now I just need to brush up on my programming.

I also had the fortune of seeing the University of Stuttgart's 100% functional LGP-30 this winter...some pics here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/d5UL8ps5eAkEdCPs2

-C



From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Feb 18 22:02:48 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 20:02:48 -0800
Subject: Control Data 841 disk drive's 3-phase power supply resurrection
In-Reply-To: <ebf42b00-6144-de7c-85f8-8da292413152@bitsavers.org>
References: <1657013265.1156785.1518975290130.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1657013265.1156785.1518975290130@mail.yahoo.com>
 <e69d2bd8-ec75-e5cf-e556-a603f2313031@bitsavers.org>
 <cdb07efc-0a45-e7d5-2942-42396f402ea9@sydex.com>
 <ebf42b00-6144-de7c-85f8-8da292413152@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <332f8136-3517-21d7-4c56-7d1fbfa595ee@sydex.com>

On 02/18/2018 04:55 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
> On 2/18/18 4:07 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> Generally, the electromechanical stuff (motors) was run from 208V
>> 3-phase and often, the electronics from 400Hz.
>>
>> At least that's what I recall.
>>
>> --Chuck
>>
> 
> that isn't what the schematic looks like.
> there is a low voltage transformer hung off one of the phases

Perhaps that's only for controllers and CPUs and such.  It's been too
long...

--Chuck


From cctalk at snarc.net  Sun Feb 18 17:15:11 2018
From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 18:15:11 -0500
Subject: Bendix G-15 [was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
In-Reply-To: <1b6cd3a5-f632-cdc3-32d9-6d45de29c7de@bitsavers.org>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ECB02BBB-DA14-40F1-B54E-FFC57055C0E6@gmail.com>
 <5A89CE46.1010202@pico-systems.com> <20180218193042.GA30809@lonesome.com>
 <1b6cd3a5-f632-cdc3-32d9-6d45de29c7de@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <a4168d84-1d68-81db-e77c-2da95ab63e77@snarc.net>

>> the one at MARCH
> 
> on loan. there are supposed to be more in DC

That's what I alluded to in my reply, just didn't give the location... 
yes the owner has a few more. Anyone who is a serious buyer ($$$$) can 
contact me privately and I will put you in contact with the seller.

But yes, the one at the VCFed museum is on loan to us, however there is 
a very good likelihood we will soon have a G-15 as a straight donation 
(that is all I can say right now).

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Mon Feb 19 08:07:29 2018
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 09:07:29 -0500
Subject: Control Data 841 disk drive's 3-phase power supply resurrection
In-Reply-To: <332f8136-3517-21d7-4c56-7d1fbfa595ee@sydex.com>
References: <1657013265.1156785.1518975290130.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1657013265.1156785.1518975290130@mail.yahoo.com>
 <e69d2bd8-ec75-e5cf-e556-a603f2313031@bitsavers.org>
 <cdb07efc-0a45-e7d5-2942-42396f402ea9@sydex.com>
 <ebf42b00-6144-de7c-85f8-8da292413152@bitsavers.org>
 <332f8136-3517-21d7-4c56-7d1fbfa595ee@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <8CB00258-2F54-4417-B469-EF1C262D1108@comcast.net>



> On Feb 18, 2018, at 11:02 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On 02/18/2018 04:55 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> On 2/18/18 4:07 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>> 
>>> Generally, the electromechanical stuff (motors) was run from 208V
>>> 3-phase and often, the electronics from 400Hz.
>>> 
>>> At least that's what I recall.
>>> 
>>> --Chuck
>>> 
>> 
>> that isn't what the schematic looks like.
>> there is a low voltage transformer hung off one of the phases
> 
> Perhaps that's only for controllers and CPUs and such.  It's been too
> long...

It varies.  Looking at CDC 6600 CPU cabinet power schematics, you can see 400 Hz 3 phase powering the DC supplies, and 50/60 Hz three phase for the cooling system compressors.  An interesting detail is that the DC supplies seem to be unregulated, with choke input filters.  That makes some sense, the load is reasonably constant with the logic used in the 6600, and choke input supplies have decent regulation.

The DD60 console takes 400 Hz 3 phase for the high voltage supply, and uses 60 Hz single phase (120 volt) for the other supplies.

	paul


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Mon Feb 19 08:44:49 2018
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 06:44:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!
In-Reply-To: <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>

On Sun, 18 Feb 2018, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:

> What do they have up there for Honeywell?  Any DPS-8?s?  I know they 
> should have at least a box of GCOS-8 manuals (in hindsight, the only 
> manuals I regret sending up there).

Zane, they've got a DPS-8 maintenance/operator/? panel sitting right out 
front.  It's fully operational and is connected via some magic hardware to 
a Raspberry Pi running a Multics emulator. The guy that wrote the emulator 
gave a talk that should be the first one you watch once Erik has a chance 
to get the video posted.

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Feb 19 08:45:56 2018
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 09:45:56 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Bendix G-15 [was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
Message-ID: <20180219144556.B55E818C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Al Kossow

    >> On 2/18/18 12:20 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote:

    >> ... his 709 went to the CHM. Anything else of the big stuff?

    > the 7094 and 650

A 7094? Neat! Very historic machine.

I wonder if it would be possible to fabricate the extras needed to run CTSS
on it... :-)

	Noel

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Feb 19 08:51:52 2018
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 09:51:52 -0500 (EST)
Subject: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!
Message-ID: <20180219145152.3E7B918C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: geneb

    > they've got a DPS-8 maintenance/operator/? panel ... It's fully
    > operational and is connected via some magic hardware to a Raspberry Pi
    > running a Multics emulator.

Technically it's an H6180; the DPS-8 is a later generation of hardware in the
same family. More here:

  http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/tech/multics/MulticsPanels.html

Alas, as can be seen there, the DPS-8's don't have those wonderful panels
with a zillion lights and switches; just boring modern machines! :-)

	Noel

From db at db.net  Mon Feb 19 09:04:55 2018
From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 10:04:55 -0500
Subject: Ferut computer
Message-ID: <20180219150455.GA55050@night.db.net>

I just stumbled over this page this morning. Wow.
Fascinating story!

http://ferut.ca/my-story/


-- 
- db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db

From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Feb 19 10:01:54 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 08:01:54 -0800
Subject: Bendix G-15 [was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
In-Reply-To: <20180219144556.B55E818C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20180219144556.B55E818C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <e91151c7-8ee0-6121-74b5-01bfb96e80bf@bitsavers.org>



On 2/19/18 6:45 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:

> I wonder if it would be possible to fabricate the extras needed to run CTSS

No point, because we aren't going to restore it.




From elson at pico-systems.com  Mon Feb 19 12:25:53 2018
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 12:25:53 -0600
Subject: Bendix G-15 [was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
In-Reply-To: <20180219144556.B55E818C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20180219144556.B55E818C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <5A8B16B1.6080509@pico-systems.com>

On 02/19/2018 08:45 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
>      > From: Al Kossow
>
>      >> On 2/18/18 12:20 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote:
>
>      >> ... his 709 went to the CHM. Anything else of the big stuff?
>
>      > the 7094 and 650
>
> A 7094? Neat! Very historic machine.
>
>
Gotta have a LOT of space to house one of those!

Jon

From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Feb 19 13:48:23 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 11:48:23 -0800
Subject: Bendix G-15 [was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
In-Reply-To: <5A8B16B1.6080509@pico-systems.com>
References: <20180219144556.B55E818C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <5A8B16B1.6080509@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <689fa80d-1a06-1076-448a-c6780ddd01e6@bitsavers.org>

Even more to bring one back on-line, which is why it's impractical
to restore in the foreseeable future.

On 2/19/18 10:25 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:

>> A 7094? Neat! Very historic machine.
>>
>>
> Gotta have a LOT of space to house one of those!
> 
> Jon


From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Feb 19 14:26:27 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 12:26:27 -0800
Subject: Bendix G-15 [was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
In-Reply-To: <689fa80d-1a06-1076-448a-c6780ddd01e6@bitsavers.org>
References: <20180219144556.B55E818C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <5A8B16B1.6080509@pico-systems.com>
 <689fa80d-1a06-1076-448a-c6780ddd01e6@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <a6dafbf9-7143-c21a-4092-29cafb201022@sydex.com>

On 02/19/2018 11:48 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> Even more to bring one back on-line, which is why it's impractical
> to restore in the foreseeable future.

I can't even imagine the effort it would take to get a 7090 or 7094
operating again using volunteer labor.

--Chuck


From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk  Mon Feb 19 16:27:57 2018
From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 22:27:57 +0000
Subject: Seeking RL02K cartridge
Message-ID: <877er8wr6a.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk>

Hi all,

Inspired by CuriousMarc's recent video, I cleaned and fixed my RL02
heads. Not with an ultrasonic cleaner unfortunately, but in a warm IPA
bath. It worked! Loading a crashed pack is obviously not a good idea,
although I cleaned the cartridge well, and figured with bad heads and a
bad pack, I might as well try it. The heads no longer crash and appear
clean after loading, but the cartridge, of course, cannot be read as the
first track has been destroyed from the initial crash. I think the crash
was cause by bad heads before I got the RL02 drive.

I posted some pictures of the process here:

http://aaronsplace.co.uk/blog/2018-02-19-repairing-crashed-RL02-heads.html

I am wondering if anyone would be willing to sell me an RL02K cartridge
for a sensible price?

After the cleaning I am guessing my alignment will be slightly off, but
from what I have read in the manual, this is will probably just result
in the read/write speed being reduced as the heads have to move slightly
when switching between either side of the platter. Am I right in
thinking this or completely wrong?

Thanks,
Aaron.

--
Aaron Jackson
PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory, Uni of Nottingham
http://aaronsplace.co.uk

From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Mon Feb 19 16:58:58 2018
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 22:58:58 -0000
Subject: Seeking RL02K cartridge
In-Reply-To: <877er8wr6a.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk>
References: <877er8wr6a.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk>
Message-ID: <015f01d3a9d5$39f126f0$add374d0$@ntlworld.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Aaron
> Jackson via cctalk
> Sent: 19 February 2018 22:28
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Seeking RL02K cartridge
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Inspired by CuriousMarc's recent video, I cleaned and fixed my RL02 heads.
Not
> with an ultrasonic cleaner unfortunately, but in a warm IPA bath. It
worked!
> Loading a crashed pack is obviously not a good idea, although I cleaned
the
> cartridge well, and figured with bad heads and a bad pack, I might as well
try
> it. The heads no longer crash and appear clean after loading, but the
cartridge,
> of course, cannot be read as the first track has been destroyed from the
initial
> crash. I think the crash was cause by bad heads before I got the RL02
drive.
> 
> I posted some pictures of the process here:
> 
> http://aaronsplace.co.uk/blog/2018-02-19-repairing-crashed-RL02-heads.html
> 


Looking at the pictures of the heads before and after I am struggling to see
a difference. What am I looking for?

Regards

Rob


> I am wondering if anyone would be willing to sell me an RL02K cartridge
for a
> sensible price?
> 
> After the cleaning I am guessing my alignment will be slightly off, but
from
> what I have read in the manual, this is will probably just result in the
read/write
> speed being reduced as the heads have to move slightly when switching
> between either side of the platter. Am I right in thinking this or
completely
> wrong?
> 
> Thanks,
> Aaron.
> 
> --
> Aaron Jackson
> PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory, Uni of Nottingham
> http://aaronsplace.co.uk


From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk  Mon Feb 19 17:03:46 2018
From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 23:03:46 +0000
Subject: Seeking RL02K cartridge
In-Reply-To: <015f01d3a9d5$39f126f0$add374d0$@ntlworld.com>
References: <877er8wr6a.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk>
 <015f01d3a9d5$39f126f0$add374d0$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <87606swpil.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk>

>>
>> I posted some pictures of the process here:
>>
>> http://aaronsplace.co.uk/blog/2018-02-19-repairing-crashed-RL02-heads.html
>>
> Looking at the pictures of the heads before and after I am struggling to see
> a difference. What am I looking for?
>
> Regards
>
> Rob

If you click on the image and load the full sized image, you should be
able to see some orange stuff from the coating on the platter on the
heads. There isn't a lot, but it was enough to crash when I loaded a
pack it seems.  Cleaning with IPA and swabs, without the heat, wasn't
enough to get it off.

Best,
Aaron

From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com  Mon Feb 19 17:57:09 2018
From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 15:57:09 -0800
Subject: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 6:44 AM, geneb via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> On Sun, 18 Feb 2018, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>
> What do they have up there for Honeywell?  Any DPS-8?s?  I know they
>> should have at least a box of GCOS-8 manuals (in hindsight, the only
>> manuals I regret sending up there).
>>
>
> Zane, they've got a DPS-8 maintenance/operator/? panel sitting right out
> front.  It's fully operational and is connected via some magic hardware to
> a Raspberry Pi running a Multics emulator. The guy that wrote the emulator
> gave a talk that should be the first one you watch once Erik has a chance
> to get the video posted.
>
>
The emulator is running on a Intel Nuc, not a PI.  Also, I was one of a
group that wrote the emulator, I can't take credit for the whole thing.

-- Charles

From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Mon Feb 19 18:36:13 2018
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 18:36:13 -0600
Subject: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!
In-Reply-To: <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>

whats invovled in makin an emulator?
i have a chunk of stuff for the phillips p1000

On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 5:57 PM, Charles Anthony via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 6:44 AM, geneb via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 18 Feb 2018, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
> >
> > What do they have up there for Honeywell?  Any DPS-8?s?  I know they
> >> should have at least a box of GCOS-8 manuals (in hindsight, the only
> >> manuals I regret sending up there).
> >>
> >
> > Zane, they've got a DPS-8 maintenance/operator/? panel sitting right out
> > front.  It's fully operational and is connected via some magic hardware
> to
> > a Raspberry Pi running a Multics emulator. The guy that wrote the
> emulator
> > gave a talk that should be the first one you watch once Erik has a chance
> > to get the video posted.
> >
> >
> The emulator is running on a Intel Nuc, not a PI.  Also, I was one of a
> group that wrote the emulator, I can't take credit for the whole thing.
>
> -- Charles
>

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Mon Feb 19 19:02:20 2018
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 17:02:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!
In-Reply-To: <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802191701510.19181@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>

On Mon, 19 Feb 2018, Charles Anthony wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 6:44 AM, geneb via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 18 Feb 2018, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>>
>> What do they have up there for Honeywell?  Any DPS-8?s?  I know they
>>> should have at least a box of GCOS-8 manuals (in hindsight, the only
>>> manuals I regret sending up there).
>>>
>>
>> Zane, they've got a DPS-8 maintenance/operator/? panel sitting right out
>> front.  It's fully operational and is connected via some magic hardware to
>> a Raspberry Pi running a Multics emulator. The guy that wrote the emulator
>> gave a talk that should be the first one you watch once Erik has a chance
>> to get the video posted.
>>
>>
> The emulator is running on a Intel Nuc, not a PI.  Also, I was one of a
> group that wrote the emulator, I can't take credit for the whole thing.

I could have sworn someone said it was a Raspberry Pi.  My apologies!

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com  Mon Feb 19 19:17:29 2018
From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 17:17:29 -0800
Subject: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802191701510.19181@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802191701510.19181@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <CANV78LRF=4YqevBAJDZ-79ZeoBxCUPku68nPpymyekGvHEZW8Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 5:02 PM, geneb via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> On Mon, 19 Feb 2018, Charles Anthony wrote:
>
>
>>
>>>
>>> The emulator is running on a Intel Nuc, not a PI.  Also, I was one of a
>> group that wrote the emulator, I can't take credit for the whole thing.
>>
>
> I could have sworn someone said it was a Raspberry Pi.  My apologies!


No problem.

The emulator will run on the Pi, but *horribly* slowly. Analysis indicates
a very high cache miss rate, which is an ARM killer. Reorganizing data
structures would probably help a lot. GCC has a code reordering feature
which would probably also help. I haven't been able to locate any cache
optimization tools other than valgrind, which makes the code run more
slowly than I am prepared to deal with. I keep thinking that it might be
possible to do a sampling approach -- periodically capture the instruction
counter and the addresses in the cache and try to build up a map of memory
access patterns; use that as a guide to reordering.

-- Charles

From elson at pico-systems.com  Mon Feb 19 21:26:17 2018
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 21:26:17 -0600
Subject: Bendix G-15 [was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
In-Reply-To: <a6dafbf9-7143-c21a-4092-29cafb201022@sydex.com>
References: <20180219144556.B55E818C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <5A8B16B1.6080509@pico-systems.com>
 <689fa80d-1a06-1076-448a-c6780ddd01e6@bitsavers.org>
 <a6dafbf9-7143-c21a-4092-29cafb201022@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <5A8B9559.7090501@pico-systems.com>

On 02/19/2018 02:26 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> On 02/19/2018 11:48 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
>> Even more to bring one back on-line, which is why it's impractical
>> to restore in the foreseeable future.
> I can't even imagine the effort it would take to get a 7090 or 7094
> operating again using volunteer labor.
>
> --Chuck
>
>
Yup.  I don't know how much logic is in a 1401, but probably 
in between 500 and 1000 SMS cards.  Apparently, getting the 
CHM 1401 running was a multi-year project.  The 7094 has 
11,000 SMS cards!!! Completely beyond comprehension.  Given 
the technology, I'm not sure how IBM kept these running when 
NEW with a box of spare cards on site.  And, given how my 
uVAX-II deteriorated over only 21 years of use (biggest 
problem was the backplane finger contacts slowly got 
unreliable), I can't imagine what kind of HELL one would go 
through with 11,000 circuit cards!  Holy Moly!

Jon

From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Tue Feb 20 02:21:58 2018
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 08:21:58 -0000
Subject: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0af701d3aa23$e08c6170$a1a52450$@gmail.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian
> Stoness via cctalk
> Sent: 20 February 2018 00:36
> To: Charles Anthony <charles.unix.pro at gmail.com>; General Discussion: On-
> Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!
> 
> whats invovled in makin an emulator?
> i have a chunk of stuff for the phillips p1000
> 

Many new emulators are either based on MAME or SIMH. There is a guide on writing a new SIMH emulator here:-

http://simh.trailing-edge.com/docs/simh.pdf

the docs on mame are here:-

http://wiki.mamedev.org/index.php/How_MAME_Works

Dave




From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net  Tue Feb 20 09:18:09 2018
From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 09:18:09 -0600
Subject: LMI Lambda Lispmachine Keyboard aka Space Cadet Keyboad
In-Reply-To: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAKJAyNrk1LNLkqqQVfjDetjCgAAAEAAAANVmM6zVMT9OrCr2ecQ/L2UBAAAAAA==@nefkom.net>
References: <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAKJAyNrk1LNLkqqQVfjDetjCgAAAEAAAANVmM6zVMT9OrCr2ecQ/L2UBAAAAAA==@nefkom.net>
Message-ID: <0330DEA3-96FC-4D6D-AAAE-5886A69AA8BD@lunar-tokyo.net>


> On Feb 17, 2018, at 9:29 AM, Marc Holz via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> 
> 
> I have the keyboard for a LMI Lambda Lispmachine but I'm missing the
> computer itself.

Where?d you get this from, and do you have any idea what happened to the machine it was once attached to?

> Is there a simulator or similar available?

I was going to post my LambdaDelta but someone already beat me to the punch?

The interface is serial and the protocol is semi-documented in the emulator source. If you get the physical gubbins worked out to talk to it from your host, getting bits to and from LambdaDelta should be trivial. I would be interested in seeing the actual bits to and from the keyboard; There?s a few things that don?t seem to work as the source implies they should, most notably the warm-boot/go-back-to-sdu chords.

If you need help, I?ll do what I can.


From mattislind at gmail.com  Tue Feb 20 10:15:17 2018
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 17:15:17 +0100
Subject: UCSD p-system manuals and disks?
Message-ID: <CABr82S+G4GDiEdzPR7BKCAWYrj3oF08XccyWx2=aq=MreHN3+g@mail.gmail.com>

I received these nice binders.

https://i.imgur.com/L80ZGusl.jpg

I think that most of them are already available online. Not sure about the
UCSD Pascal manual?

One of the binders contained some disks.

https://i.imgur.com/FYIBbmjl.jpg

Are these disks available online already or should I dump them? Bitsavers
seems to have the Mac version.

/Mattis

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Tue Feb 20 10:19:50 2018
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 11:19:50 -0500
Subject: UCSD p-system manuals and disks?
In-Reply-To: <CABr82S+G4GDiEdzPR7BKCAWYrj3oF08XccyWx2=aq=MreHN3+g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABr82S+G4GDiEdzPR7BKCAWYrj3oF08XccyWx2=aq=MreHN3+g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBueeHZfK=paHkXrS50734Tw57rvRDtavO9Kz+gV14gMTJQ@mail.gmail.com>

These may be uncommon, given they're for the TI 350-era business computer.
They were partially IBM clones, I am guessing the Pascal in particular
would have been incompatible with a regular IBM of the time and these disks
would only work on the TI's.  These disks would be greatly appreciated by
someone with a TI 350 who had no other way to get Pascal running.
b

On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 11:15 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I received these nice binders.
>
> https://i.imgur.com/L80ZGusl.jpg
>
> I think that most of them are already available online. Not sure about the
> UCSD Pascal manual?
>
> One of the binders contained some disks.
>
> https://i.imgur.com/FYIBbmjl.jpg
>
> Are these disks available online already or should I dump them? Bitsavers
> seems to have the Mac version.
>
> /Mattis
>

From holm at freibergnet.de  Tue Feb 20 12:08:30 2018
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 19:08:30 +0100
Subject: Ferut computer
In-Reply-To: <20180219150455.GA55050@night.db.net>
References: <20180219150455.GA55050@night.db.net>
Message-ID: <20180220180830.GA95350@beast.freibergnet.de>

Diane Bruce via cctalk wrote:

> I just stumbled over this page this morning. Wow.
> Fascinating story!
> 
> http://ferut.ca/my-story/
> 
> 
> -- 
> - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db

Read all about the Ferut computer and the radar techncan time, really  great
written stories! 

Regards from Germany,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741


From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Tue Feb 20 13:22:32 2018
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 20:22:32 +0100
Subject: Writing emulators [Was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20180220192231.GK21580@Update.UU.SE>

On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 06:36:13PM -0600, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:
> whats invovled in makin an emulator?
> i have a chunk of stuff for the phillips p1000

I would say it depends a lot on how complex your target machine is. But 
in essense you will have to write code for each device you wish to 
emulate mapping their functionality over to your host machine, the one 
running the emulator.

As a minimum you will write code for the CPU and some sort of output 
device, such as a serial console. For some machines you might need 
images of ROM code in order to be fully compatible with existing 
software.

I wrote a PDP-8 emulator for fun. The basic CPU and serial was done in a 
few hours. I then hardcoded the paper tape loader in memory and allowed 
input to be read from an image file.

Adding extended memory support and running conformance tests has taken 
the bulk of the time.

/P

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Tue Feb 20 14:41:13 2018
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 15:41:13 -0500
Subject: Writing emulators [Was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
In-Reply-To: <20180220192231.GK21580@Update.UU.SE>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180220192231.GK21580@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <F1EE38FF-8E0F-423A-828A-9C3F113E13E2@comcast.net>



> On Feb 20, 2018, at 2:22 PM, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 06:36:13PM -0600, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:
>> whats invovled in makin an emulator?
>> i have a chunk of stuff for the phillips p1000
> 
> I would say it depends a lot on how complex your target machine is. But 
> in essense you will have to write code for each device you wish to 
> emulate mapping their functionality over to your host machine, the one 
> running the emulator.
> 
> As a minimum you will write code for the CPU and some sort of output 
> device, such as a serial console. 

I would add: unless you have a very strange situation (which is unlikely with a Philips machine), SIMH is the foundation to use.  There are other simulators out there built on other foundations, and they work fine.  But SIMH has an excellent structure and takes care of a whole lot of work, allowing you to concentrate on the actual technical substance of emulating a specific machine.

	paul


From james at attfield.co.uk  Tue Feb 20 15:14:19 2018
From: james at attfield.co.uk (James Attfield)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 21:14:19 -0000
Subject: New home for old computing books - free on collection (UK)
Message-ID: <038001d3aa8f$c657e290$5307a7b0$@attfield.co.uk>

I am having a re-org of the workspace and have decided to release a number
of books acquired over the last 3/4 decades but I am in a quandary as I
can't store them, don't think the local Cat's Protection League can handle
them and I am reluctant to consign them to the skip. While I appreciate that
they may not qualify as true vintage currently they will be before too long,
like PL/1 primers were years ago when folks were skipping them. I have
between two to three dozen (some big) and won't impose here by listing them
all but they include such nuggets as  'Secrets of Windows 2000 Server', 'MTS
Programming in Visual Basic', Kernighan's 'Software Tools in Pascal',
'Understanding and Programming COM+' and 'Developing Professional
Applications in Windows 95 and NT Using MFC'.  I have most if not all of the
accompanying CD's. I am afraid my 'Introduction to Programming using Fortran
77' and 'Lepton and Baryon Number Violation in Particle Physics,
Astrophysics and Cosmology' along with my Amiga development manuals are not
up for grabs (cold, dead hands, etc.)

I can't expect anyone crazy enough to take the whole lot (but free for the
collection if you like and welcome) but does anyone know anywhere who would
take them and keep them for posterity?  Just can't stand the thought of good
books being destroyed.

Please post here if you can help then we can take it off-list.

James Attfield

Proud owner of:

Amiga 500 (x4), Amiga 1500 (x2), Atari 1024 (maybe), BBC Model 'B', Amiga
3000, Amiga 4000, Cromemco System One

Proud builder of:

Imsai 8080, North Star Horizon, Processor Technology Sol-20, Nascom-I,
Nascom -II

Proud past seller of all of the above plus:

Cromemco, Vector Graphic, Compucolor, Ohio Scientific, Commodore (PET,
VIC-20, 64), South West Technical Products
KIM-1, Osborne-1, Exidy Sorcerer, ITT 2020, Dragon 32, Apricot, Comart, IBM
(maybe)



From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Tue Feb 20 17:07:43 2018
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 18:07:43 -0500
Subject: Seeking RL02K cartridge
In-Reply-To: <87606swpil.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk>
References: <877er8wr6a.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk>
 <015f01d3a9d5$39f126f0$add374d0$@ntlworld.com>
 <87606swpil.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk>
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfDZR0N=KR9H4b8-ZVpYfd-C0FMBbhookt0+K5emsEc__A@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Aaron,
  I have some extra RL02 packs and would be glad to lend you a pack for
free if you like; maybe for keeps.  But you're probably not on the same
continent as me, so shipping would probably be costly.  If you have no
better offers, let me know and we'll work it out.  Can also put bits on it
if it'd be advantageous to have something written on it beforehand.

--jake (in Pennsylvania, USA)


On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 6:03 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> >>
> >> I posted some pictures of the process here:
> >>
> >> http://aaronsplace.co.uk/blog/2018-02-19-repairing-crashed-
> RL02-heads.html
> >>
> > Looking at the pictures of the heads before and after I am struggling to
> see
> > a difference. What am I looking for?
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Rob
>
> If you click on the image and load the full sized image, you should be
> able to see some orange stuff from the coating on the platter on the
> heads. There isn't a lot, but it was enough to crash when I loaded a
> pack it seems.  Cleaning with IPA and swabs, without the heat, wasn't
> enough to get it off.
>
> Best,
> Aaron
>

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 20 17:30:32 2018
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 23:30:32 +0000
Subject: Writing emulators [Was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
In-Reply-To: <20180220192231.GK21580@Update.UU.SE>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>,
 <20180220192231.GK21580@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <MWHPR14MB1600FE44A101F4A5C55B2409A3CF0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>

In order to connect to the outside world, you need a way to queue event based on cycle counts, execution of particular address or particular instructions. This allows you to connect to the outside world. Other than that it is just looking up instructions in an instruction table.

Dwight


________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2018 11:22:32 AM
To: Adrian Stoness; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Writing emulators [Was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]

On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 06:36:13PM -0600, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:
> whats invovled in makin an emulator?
> i have a chunk of stuff for the phillips p1000

I would say it depends a lot on how complex your target machine is. But
in essense you will have to write code for each device you wish to
emulate mapping their functionality over to your host machine, the one
running the emulator.

As a minimum you will write code for the CPU and some sort of output
device, such as a serial console. For some machines you might need
images of ROM code in order to be fully compatible with existing
software.

I wrote a PDP-8 emulator for fun. The basic CPU and serial was done in a
few hours. I then hardcoded the paper tape loader in memory and allowed
input to be read from an image file.

Adding extended memory support and running conformance tests has taken
the bulk of the time.

/P

From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk  Tue Feb 20 17:37:13 2018
From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 23:37:13 +0000
Subject: Seeking RL02K cartridge
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfDZR0N=KR9H4b8-ZVpYfd-C0FMBbhookt0+K5emsEc__A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <877er8wr6a.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk>
 <015f01d3a9d5$39f126f0$add374d0$@ntlworld.com>
 <87606swpil.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk>
 <CAHYQbfDZR0N=KR9H4b8-ZVpYfd-C0FMBbhookt0+K5emsEc__A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87bmgj44ie.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk>

> Hi Aaron,
>   I have some extra RL02 packs and would be glad to lend you a pack for
> free if you like; maybe for keeps.  But you're probably not on the same
> continent as me, so shipping would probably be costly.  If you have no
> better offers, let me know and we'll work it out.  Can also put bits on it
> if it'd be advantageous to have something written on it beforehand.

Thanks for the offer Jake! Hopefully something in the UK turns up but if
not I may be in touch :)

Aaron

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Tue Feb 20 17:42:17 2018
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 18:42:17 -0500
Subject: Seeking RL02K cartridge
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfDZR0N=KR9H4b8-ZVpYfd-C0FMBbhookt0+K5emsEc__A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <877er8wr6a.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk>
 <015f01d3a9d5$39f126f0$add374d0$@ntlworld.com>
 <87606swpil.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk>
 <CAHYQbfDZR0N=KR9H4b8-ZVpYfd-C0FMBbhookt0+K5emsEc__A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBuebmpBReo0PVdVQWr8_cXpUZfjTb3QNg0nuBEvE3aKczw@mail.gmail.com>

Where in PA?  I live on the south -eastern corner near the u of Delaware (
Newark, del.)
Bill

On Feb 20, 2018 6:07 PM, "Jacob Ritorto via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> Hi Aaron,
>   I have some extra RL02 packs and would be glad to lend you a pack for
> free if you like; maybe for keeps.  But you're probably not on the same
> continent as me, so shipping would probably be costly.  If you have no
> better offers, let me know and we'll work it out.  Can also put bits on it
> if it'd be advantageous to have something written on it beforehand.
>
> --jake (in Pennsylvania, USA)
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 6:03 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > >>
> > >> I posted some pictures of the process here:
> > >>
> > >> http://aaronsplace.co.uk/blog/2018-02-19-repairing-crashed-
> > RL02-heads.html
> > >>
> > > Looking at the pictures of the heads before and after I am struggling
> to
> > see
> > > a difference. What am I looking for?
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > Rob
> >
> > If you click on the image and load the full sized image, you should be
> > able to see some orange stuff from the coating on the platter on the
> > heads. There isn't a lot, but it was enough to crash when I loaded a
> > pack it seems.  Cleaning with IPA and swabs, without the heat, wasn't
> > enough to get it off.
> >
> > Best,
> > Aaron
> >
>

From echristopherson at gmail.com  Tue Feb 20 18:01:54 2018
From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 18:01:54 -0600
Subject: Writing emulators [Was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR14MB1600FE44A101F4A5C55B2409A3CF0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180220192231.GK21580@Update.UU.SE>
 <MWHPR14MB1600FE44A101F4A5C55B2409A3CF0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CADyB93BZKgw7bv58gd45DKMxiA-5x6bf=sYFYExT1psmU1LcQQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 5:30 PM, dwight via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> In order to connect to the outside world, you need a way to queue event
> based on cycle counts, execution of particular address or particular
> instructions. This allows you to connect to the outside world. Other than
> that it is just looking up instructions in an instruction table.
>
> Dwight
>

What I've always wondered about was how the heck cycle-accurate emulation
is done. In the past I've always felt overwhelmed looking in the sources of
emulators like that to see how they do it, but maybe it's time I tried
again.

Another more-complex thing done by some emulators is compiling, on the fly,
a series of emulated machine instructions into native host machine code, to
boost performance. That's also what the Java virtual machine does.


>
>
> ________________________________
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Pontus Pihlgren
> via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2018 11:22:32 AM
> To: Adrian Stoness; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Writing emulators [Was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
>
> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 06:36:13PM -0600, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:
> > whats invovled in makin an emulator?
> > i have a chunk of stuff for the phillips p1000
>
> I would say it depends a lot on how complex your target machine is. But
> in essense you will have to write code for each device you wish to
> emulate mapping their functionality over to your host machine, the one
> running the emulator.
>
> As a minimum you will write code for the CPU and some sort of output
> device, such as a serial console. For some machines you might need
> images of ROM code in order to be fully compatible with existing
> software.
>
> I wrote a PDP-8 emulator for fun. The basic CPU and serial was done in a
> few hours. I then hardcoded the paper tape loader in memory and allowed
> input to be read from an image file.
>
> Adding extended memory support and running conformance tests has taken
> the bulk of the time.
>
> /P
>



-- 
        Eric Christopherson

From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Tue Feb 20 18:06:09 2018
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 19:06:09 -0500
Subject: Seeking RL02K cartridge
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBuebmpBReo0PVdVQWr8_cXpUZfjTb3QNg0nuBEvE3aKczw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <877er8wr6a.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk>
 <015f01d3a9d5$39f126f0$add374d0$@ntlworld.com>
 <87606swpil.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk>
 <CAHYQbfDZR0N=KR9H4b8-ZVpYfd-C0FMBbhookt0+K5emsEc__A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBuebmpBReo0PVdVQWr8_cXpUZfjTb3QNg0nuBEvE3aKczw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfA05Z3H6Q_tr=kfs0XWd3xXn1NW+hXZ_SPTo01ankD-7Q@mail.gmail.com>

I'm on the western side of the state, mid-way up, 5 minutes from the Ohio
line.

I have an old church building with maybe ten pdp11s and VAXen and would
like to host a pdp11 programming / work session / mixer someday if I can
get the space into a presentable state!


On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 6:42 PM, Bill Degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com> wrote:

> Where in PA?  I live on the south -eastern corner near the u of Delaware (
> Newark, del.)
> Bill
>
> On Feb 20, 2018 6:07 PM, "Jacob Ritorto via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Aaron,
>>   I have some extra RL02 packs and would be glad to lend you a pack for
>> free if you like; maybe for keeps.  But you're probably not on the same
>> continent as me, so shipping would probably be costly.  If you have no
>> better offers, let me know and we'll work it out.  Can also put bits on it
>> if it'd be advantageous to have something written on it beforehand.
>>
>> --jake (in Pennsylvania, USA)
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 6:03 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk <
>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> > >>
>> > >> I posted some pictures of the process here:
>> > >>
>> > >> http://aaronsplace.co.uk/blog/2018-02-19-repairing-crashed-
>> > RL02-heads.html
>> > >>
>> > > Looking at the pictures of the heads before and after I am struggling
>> to
>> > see
>> > > a difference. What am I looking for?
>> > >
>> > > Regards
>> > >
>> > > Rob
>> >
>> > If you click on the image and load the full sized image, you should be
>> > able to see some orange stuff from the coating on the platter on the
>> > heads. There isn't a lot, but it was enough to crash when I loaded a
>> > pack it seems.  Cleaning with IPA and swabs, without the heat, wasn't
>> > enough to get it off.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> > Aaron
>> >
>>
>

From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com  Tue Feb 20 18:20:29 2018
From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 16:20:29 -0800
Subject: Writing emulators [Was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
In-Reply-To: <CADyB93BZKgw7bv58gd45DKMxiA-5x6bf=sYFYExT1psmU1LcQQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180220192231.GK21580@Update.UU.SE>
 <MWHPR14MB1600FE44A101F4A5C55B2409A3CF0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <CADyB93BZKgw7bv58gd45DKMxiA-5x6bf=sYFYExT1psmU1LcQQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANV78LQLWpVhF9p2v1JpJC8zDbMfiA_4SO5_U6QCnvuXP23J0A@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 4:01 PM, Eric Christopherson via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 5:30 PM, dwight via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
> > In order to connect to the outside world, you need a way to queue event
> > based on cycle counts, execution of particular address or particular
> > instructions. This allows you to connect to the outside world. Other than
> > that it is just looking up instructions in an instruction table.
> >
> > Dwight
> >
>
> What I've always wondered about was how the heck cycle-accurate emulation
> is done. In the past I've always felt overwhelmed looking in the sources of
> emulators like that to see how they do it, but maybe it's time I tried
> again.
>
>
An emulator does not necessarily need to be cycle accurate. Some
architectures have overlapping instruction execution, memory caches, I/O
memory contention --  calculating cycles can be very complex. Other
architectures, such as the DPS8/M do not seem to have left any
documentation about cycle timing. The dps8/m emulator is coded for
performance, not timing accuracy.

-- Charles

From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 20 18:31:34 2018
From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 00:31:34 +0000
Subject: Seeking RL02K cartridge
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBuebmpBReo0PVdVQWr8_cXpUZfjTb3QNg0nuBEvE3aKczw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <877er8wr6a.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk>
 <015f01d3a9d5$39f126f0$add374d0$@ntlworld.com>
 <87606swpil.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk>
 <CAHYQbfDZR0N=KR9H4b8-ZVpYfd-C0FMBbhookt0+K5emsEc__A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABGJBuebmpBReo0PVdVQWr8_cXpUZfjTb3QNg0nuBEvE3aKczw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BN1PR0101MB07540568012C01E4AB1FCA0EEDCE0@BN1PR0101MB0754.prod.exchangelabs.com>

And I live east of Scranton.


bill



On 02/20/2018 06:42 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
> Where in PA?  I live on the south -eastern corner near the u of Delaware (
> Newark, del.)
> Bill
>
> On Feb 20, 2018 6:07 PM, "Jacob Ritorto via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Aaron,
>>    I have some extra RL02 packs and would be glad to lend you a pack for
>> free if you like; maybe for keeps.  But you're probably not on the same
>> continent as me, so shipping would probably be costly.  If you have no
>> better offers, let me know and we'll work it out.  Can also put bits on it
>> if it'd be advantageous to have something written on it beforehand.
>>
>> --jake (in Pennsylvania, USA)
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 6:03 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk <
>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>>>>> I posted some pictures of the process here:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://aaronsplace.co.uk/blog/2018-02-19-repairing-crashed-
>>> RL02-heads.html
>>>> Looking at the pictures of the heads before and after I am struggling
>> to
>>> see
>>>> a difference. What am I looking for?
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>> Rob
>>> If you click on the image and load the full sized image, you should be
>>> able to see some orange stuff from the coating on the platter on the
>>> heads. There isn't a lot, but it was enough to crash when I loaded a
>>> pack it seems.  Cleaning with IPA and swabs, without the heat, wasn't
>>> enough to get it off.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Aaron
>>>


From spc at conman.org  Tue Feb 20 19:18:09 2018
From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 20:18:09 -0500
Subject: Writing emulators [Was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
In-Reply-To: <CADyB93BZKgw7bv58gd45DKMxiA-5x6bf=sYFYExT1psmU1LcQQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180220192231.GK21580@Update.UU.SE>
 <MWHPR14MB1600FE44A101F4A5C55B2409A3CF0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <CADyB93BZKgw7bv58gd45DKMxiA-5x6bf=sYFYExT1psmU1LcQQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20180221011809.GB27949@brevard.conman.org>

It was thus said that the Great Eric Christopherson via cctalk once stated:
> On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 5:30 PM, dwight via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
> 
> > In order to connect to the outside world, you need a way to queue event
> > based on cycle counts, execution of particular address or particular
> > instructions. This allows you to connect to the outside world. Other than
> > that it is just looking up instructions in an instruction table.
> >
> > Dwight
> >
> 
> What I've always wondered about was how the heck cycle-accurate emulation
> is done. In the past I've always felt overwhelmed looking in the sources of
> emulators like that to see how they do it, but maybe it's time I tried
> again.

  It depends upon how cycle accurate you want.  My own MC6809 emulator [1]
keeps track of cycles on a per-instruction basis, so it's easy to figure out
how many cycles have passed.  Hardware emulation can be done between
instructions by updating per the number of cycles passed (if required).  I
don't have the code for the MC6840 (a timer chip) in my MC6809 emulator
repository (it's still somewhat under construction) but I do update the
timer based upon the elapsed cycle count of the previous instruction [2].

  -spc (Code available upon request if you want to look at it)

[1]	https://github.com/spc476/mc6809

[2]	It's not emulating any existing machine.  Rather, I'm emulating a
	system with a few serial ports (MC6850) and a few timer chips
	(MC6840).  I have plans on adding a few floppy controllers (MC6843)
	and a DMA chip (6844).

From cctalk at snarc.net  Tue Feb 20 17:00:05 2018
From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 18:00:05 -0500
Subject: VCF Southeast, East, West -- dates announced
Message-ID: <91178382-2bc2-c47c-3caf-defd2b2b7006@snarc.net>

Here's some news! VCF Southeast is April 21-22, VCF East is May 18-20, 
and VCF West is August 4-5.

Exhibit registration is OPEN for Southeast and East.

For details please see www.vcfed.org.

From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Tue Feb 20 17:49:37 2018
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 18:49:37 -0500
Subject: qd32 trouble
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfBYnWCfn2wTV95dAsOUvsriPLkdurDV6phWZSnkVxYL3g@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,
  Would anyone here be able to help me troubleshoot my qd32 controller?  I
have a pdp11/73 that's mostly working, boots 2.11bsd from rl02 okay, but I
need my big disk to work so I can load the rest of the distro.
  I've been following the manual for the qd32 to enter the geometry of my
real working Fuji m2333 (jumpered correctly according to the manuals), but
when I load the special command into the qd32's SP register that's supposed
to load the geometry table I entered in pdp11 memory to the qd32's novram,
I get a bad status value from the qd32's SP register and it remains
unresponsive when I try to store the geometry.  If I go ahead and try the
built-in qd32 format command, it responds similarly.  When I pull in mkfs
from tape (vtserver) and try anyway, despite the failures, to run mkfs on
the m2333, I get an !online error from the standalone unix mkfs.  The disk
does respond (the select light flashes and I can hear heads actuating), but
without geometry and format, I'm obviously dead in the water.

  I understand that there used to exist some Emulex qd32/pdp11 diagnostics
that could help the situation, but my previous attempts to find copies have
come up short.

  Any suggestions on how to proceed?

thx
jake

From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Tue Feb 20 23:58:54 2018
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 23:58:54 -0600
Subject: Writing emulators [Was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
In-Reply-To: <20180221011809.GB27949@brevard.conman.org>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180220192231.GK21580@Update.UU.SE>
 <MWHPR14MB1600FE44A101F4A5C55B2409A3CF0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <CADyB93BZKgw7bv58gd45DKMxiA-5x6bf=sYFYExT1psmU1LcQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180221011809.GB27949@brevard.conman.org>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs23Eqbb17b_hyrK6Ap=wRyXFEL8wEN-gQ6zq2N3h25+wnw@mail.gmail.com>

interesting

From hachti at hachti.de  Wed Feb 21 06:26:57 2018
From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 13:26:57 +0100
Subject: Why don't you respect the mail threads?!
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <6e074442-ea74-6540-c771-d3d9b36bee2c@hachti.de>

I have to say that I hate this email thread abuse so much...!
Is it so difficult to leave the thread about PICTURES (fill in whatever 
topic it was about) intact? It would be so much better to start a new 
thread instead:

- Does not disturb original discussion.
- Can be found and identified easily: Do you think that you will find 
the <blah blah emulator intersting blah> easily in a few years if it's 
discussed under the caption "VCF PNW 2018: Picture!"?

And on the other hand there are those people who seem to be unable to 
create a prober reply to the list and therefore make threads appear 
scattered and broken into many many pieces...

Sorry for ranting, but I enjoyed the pictures and following discussion 
so much and now encountering that dumb emulator discussion in this place 
annoys me so much...!
And yes, I know that I sent this message as a reply to another message.

Kind regards

Philipp

On 19.02.2018 15:44, geneb via cctalk wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Feb 2018, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> What do they have up there for Honeywell?? Any DPS-8?s?? I know they 
>> should have at least a box of GCOS-8 manuals (in hindsight, the only 
>> manuals I regret sending up there).
> 
> Zane, they've got a DPS-8 maintenance/operator/? panel sitting right out 
> front.? It's fully operational and is connected via some magic hardware 
> to a Raspberry Pi running a Multics emulator. The guy that wrote the 
> emulator gave a talk that should be the first one you watch once Erik 
> has a chance to get the video posted.


From hachti at hachti.de  Wed Feb 21 06:28:14 2018
From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 13:28:14 +0100
Subject: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!
In-Reply-To: <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
Message-ID: <acf3a6a3-63c7-fc6b-8c6b-76aa1cdfd76d@hachti.de>


On 19.02.2018 02:52, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
> What do they have up there for Honeywell?

I was looking through the pics and saw - nothing... But I also would be 
VERY interested about if and what Honeywell stuff they have.


From abuse at cabal.org.uk  Wed Feb 21 07:16:45 2018
From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 14:16:45 +0100
Subject: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20180221131645.zez5rbfdtei5b5zi@mooli.org.uk>

On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 06:36:13PM -0600, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:
> whats invovled in makin an emulator?
> i have a chunk of stuff for the phillips p1000

That depends on how accurate you want the emulation to be.

A programmer of modest ability should be able to knock up a simple
switch()-based step-by-step CPU emulation in a few hours. This is analogous to
a simple microcoded CPU and the performance will suck.

Making it *cycle-accurate* involves deep understanding of the emulated CPU's
internal architecture. If part of the platform requires cycle-accurate timing
for bit-banging some hardware device, you're going to need this.

Making it *fast* also involves being an expert in compiler backends for the
target architecture, because this requires decompiling and then recompiling the
code on the fly.

... and that's the easy bit. Now you get to emulate the hardware.


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Wed Feb 21 08:41:13 2018
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 09:41:13 -0500
Subject: Writing emulators [Was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
In-Reply-To: <20180221011809.GB27949@brevard.conman.org>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180220192231.GK21580@Update.UU.SE>
 <MWHPR14MB1600FE44A101F4A5C55B2409A3CF0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <CADyB93BZKgw7bv58gd45DKMxiA-5x6bf=sYFYExT1psmU1LcQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180221011809.GB27949@brevard.conman.org>
Message-ID: <3B4D9DEB-48EC-40A1-A647-E46C4A4EEE54@comcast.net>



> On Feb 20, 2018, at 8:18 PM, Sean Conner via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> It was thus said that the Great Eric Christopherson via cctalk once stated:
>> On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 5:30 PM, dwight via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> In order to connect to the outside world, you need a way to queue event
>>> based on cycle counts, execution of particular address or particular
>>> instructions. This allows you to connect to the outside world. Other than
>>> that it is just looking up instructions in an instruction table.
>>> 
>>> Dwight
>>> 
>> 
>> What I've always wondered about was how the heck cycle-accurate emulation
>> is done. In the past I've always felt overwhelmed looking in the sources of
>> emulators like that to see how they do it, but maybe it's time I tried
>> again.
> 
>  It depends upon how cycle accurate you want.  My own MC6809 emulator [1]
> keeps track of cycles on a per-instruction basis, so it's easy to figure out
> how many cycles have passed.  

SIMH in principle allows the writing of cycle-accurate CPU simulators, but I don't believe anyone has bothered.  It's hard to see why that would be all that interesting.  For some CPUs, the full definition of how long instructions take is extremely complex.  Take a look at the instruction timing appendix in a PDP-11 processor handbook, for example; there are dozens of possibilities even for simple instructions like MOV, and things get more interesting still on machines that have caches.

Another consideration is that you don't get accurate system timing unless the whole system, not just the CPU emulation, is cycle-accurate.  And while there is roughly-accurate simulation of DECtape in SIMH (presumably for TOPS-10 overlapped seek to work?) in general it is somewhere between impractical and impossible to accurately model the timing of moving media storage devices.  You'd have to deal not just with seek timing but with the current sector position -- yes, I can imagine how in theory that would be done but it would be amazingly hard, and for what purpose?

If you have a machine with just trivial I/O devices like a serial port or a typewriter, then things get a bit more manageable.

SIMH certainly has event queueing to deal with I/O.  For correctly written operating systems that is extremely non-critical; if an I/O completes in a few cycles the OS doesn't care, it just has a fast I/O device.  Poorly written operating systems may have unstated dependencies on interrupts occurring "slow enough".  So a common practice is for the CPU emulation just to count instructions (not cycles or nanoseconds) and for the I/O events to be scheduled in terms of a nominal delay expressed in average instruction times.  I haven't yet run into trouble with that (but then again, I've been working with well-built operating systems).

	paul



From healyzh at avanthar.com  Wed Feb 21 08:45:28 2018
From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 06:45:28 -0800
Subject: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!
In-Reply-To: <20180219145152.3E7B918C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20180219145152.3E7B918C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <03D01865-7822-4624-9B5D-B6091A063D68@avanthar.com>


> On Feb 19, 2018, at 6:51 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
>> From: geneb
> 
>> they've got a DPS-8 maintenance/operator/? panel ... It's fully
>> operational and is connected via some magic hardware to a Raspberry Pi
>> running a Multics emulator.
> 
> Technically it's an H6180; the DPS-8 is a later generation of hardware in the
> same family. More here:
> 
>  http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/tech/multics/MulticsPanels.html
> 
> Alas, as can be seen there, the DPS-8's don't have those wonderful panels
> with a zillion lights and switches; just boring modern machines! :-)
> 
> 	Noel

Really the H6180 looks a lot more like the DPS-8 I remember.  We had a single CPU Dev system, and a 4 CPU Production system running GCOS-8.  I thought I might have some drawings of the panels, but if I do they?re in the garage somewhere.  Another site, had a DPS-8000, our site was pretty old, and had been upgraded over time.  For example the memory cabinets were mostly empty, due to upgrades.

Zane



From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Wed Feb 21 08:56:16 2018
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 14:56:16 -0000
Subject: Writing emulators [Was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
In-Reply-To: <3B4D9DEB-48EC-40A1-A647-E46C4A4EEE54@comcast.net>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180220192231.GK21580@Update.UU.SE>
 <MWHPR14MB1600FE44A101F4A5C55B2409A3CF0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <CADyB93BZKgw7bv58gd45DKMxiA-5x6bf=sYFYExT1psmU1LcQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180221011809.GB27949@brevard.conman.org>
 <3B4D9DEB-48EC-40A1-A647-E46C4A4EEE54@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <0db001d3ab24$20811860$61834920$@gmail.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul
> Koning via cctalk
> Sent: 21 February 2018 14:41
> To: Sean Conner <spc at conman.org>; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-
> Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Writing emulators [Was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
> 
> 
> 
> > On Feb 20, 2018, at 8:18 PM, Sean Conner via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > It was thus said that the Great Eric Christopherson via cctalk once
stated:
> >> On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 5:30 PM, dwight via cctalk
> >> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> In order to connect to the outside world, you need a way to queue
> >>> event based on cycle counts, execution of particular address or
> >>> particular instructions. This allows you to connect to the outside
> >>> world. Other than that it is just looking up instructions in an
instruction
> table.
> >>>
> >>> Dwight
> >>>
> >>
> >> What I've always wondered about was how the heck cycle-accurate
> >> emulation is done. In the past I've always felt overwhelmed looking
> >> in the sources of emulators like that to see how they do it, but
> >> maybe it's time I tried again.
> >
> >  It depends upon how cycle accurate you want.  My own MC6809 emulator
> > [1] keeps track of cycles on a per-instruction basis, so it's easy to
> > figure out how many cycles have passed.
> 
> SIMH in principle allows the writing of cycle-accurate CPU simulators, but
I
> don't believe anyone has bothered.  It's hard to see why that would be all
> that interesting.  For some CPUs, the full definition of how long
instructions
> take is extremely complex.  Take a look at the instruction timing appendix
in a
> PDP-11 processor handbook, for example; there are dozens of possibilities
> even for simple instructions like MOV, and things get more interesting
still on
> machines that have caches.
> 

For early machines like the Manchester baby AKA the SSEM and the Ferranti
Pegasus its almost essential.
Many of programs for these early machines rely on cycle times to produce
predictable delays.
So the SSEM noodle timer only works because the machine runs at 110Khz..

> Another consideration is that you don't get accurate system timing unless
the
> whole system, not just the CPU emulation, is cycle-accurate.  And while
> there is roughly-accurate simulation of DECtape in SIMH (presumably for
> TOPS-10 overlapped seek to work?) in general it is somewhere between
> impractical and impossible to accurately model the timing of moving media
> storage devices.  You'd have to deal not just with seek timing but with
the
> current sector position -- yes, I can imagine how in theory that would be
> done but it would be amazingly hard, and for what purpose?
> 
> If you have a machine with just trivial I/O devices like a serial port or
a
> typewriter, then things get a bit more manageable.
> 
> SIMH certainly has event queueing to deal with I/O.  For correctly written
> operating systems that is extremely non-critical; if an I/O completes in a
few
> cycles the OS doesn't care, it just has a fast I/O device.  Poorly written
> operating systems may have unstated dependencies on interrupts occurring
> "slow enough".  So a common practice is for the CPU emulation just to
count
> instructions (not cycles or nanoseconds) and for the I/O events to be
> scheduled in terms of a nominal delay expressed in average instruction
> times.  I haven't yet run into trouble with that (but then again, I've
been
> working with well-built operating systems).
> 
> 	paul
> 

Davd


From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Wed Feb 21 09:39:00 2018
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 16:39:00 +0100
Subject: Why don't you respect the mail threads?!
In-Reply-To: <6e074442-ea74-6540-c771-d3d9b36bee2c@hachti.de>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <6e074442-ea74-6540-c771-d3d9b36bee2c@hachti.de>
Message-ID: <20180221153900.GN21580@Update.UU.SE>

Which part is it that bothers you? That the subject is not changed 
(which I did) or that the In-Reply-To: header is preserved which 
mucks up threading in my client.

anyway, this has been up for discussion before with little 
improvements..so I have given up and accept status quo.

/P

P.S. sorry if my emulator mail was booring. D.S.

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 01:26:57PM +0100, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk wrote:
> I have to say that I hate this email thread abuse so much...!
> Is it so difficult to leave the thread about PICTURES (fill in whatever
> topic it was about) intact? It would be so much better to start a new
> thread instead:
> 
> - Does not disturb original discussion.
> - Can be found and identified easily: Do you think that you will find the
> <blah blah emulator intersting blah> easily in a few years if it's
> discussed under the caption "VCF PNW 2018: Picture!"?
> 
> And on the other hand there are those people who seem to be unable to
> create a prober reply to the list and therefore make threads appear
> scattered and broken into many many pieces...
> 
> Sorry for ranting, but I enjoyed the pictures and following discussion so
> much and now encountering that dumb emulator discussion in this place
> annoys me so much...!
> And yes, I know that I sent this message as a reply to another message.
> 
> Kind regards
> 
> Philipp
> 
> On 19.02.2018 15:44, geneb via cctalk wrote:
> >On Sun, 18 Feb 2018, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
> >
> >>What do they have up there for Honeywell?? Any DPS-8?s?? I know they
> >>should have at least a box of GCOS-8 manuals (in hindsight, the only
> >>manuals I regret sending up there).
> >
> >Zane, they've got a DPS-8 maintenance/operator/? panel sitting right out
> >front.? It's fully operational and is connected via some magic hardware
> >to a Raspberry Pi running a Multics emulator. The guy that wrote the
> >emulator gave a talk that should be the first one you watch once Erik has
> >a chance to get the video posted.
> 

From mtapley at swri.edu  Wed Feb 21 09:57:23 2018
From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 15:57:23 +0000
Subject: Why don't you respect the mail threads?!
In-Reply-To: <20180221153900.GN21580@Update.UU.SE>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <6e074442-ea74-6540-c771-d3d9b36bee2c@hachti.de>
 <20180221153900.GN21580@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <CF1DEA9B-941D-45EC-A932-293B7BD5B747@swri.edu>

On Feb 21, 2018, at 9:39 AM, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Which part is it that bothers you? That the subject is not changed 
> (which I did) or that the In-Reply-To: header is preserved which 
> mucks up threading in my client.
> 
> anyway, this has been up for discussion before with little 
> improvements..so I have given up and accept status quo.

	I was one of the offenders. A list member politely pointed out to me (in private mail) the existence of the of the in-reply-to header which my client isn?t set to use. I had no idea! I?d been diligently changing subject: headers when I hijacked threads, but to no avail. So, apologies for my past bad behavior and I?ll try to do better in the future. 

	I would encourage you though, rather than give up, just politely be more explicit about what is needed - it was ignorance rather than laziness in my case which was the problem.

								- Mark


From ray at arachelian.com  Wed Feb 21 10:19:50 2018
From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 11:19:50 -0500
Subject: Writing emulators (was Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!)
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bdd3fd62-b192-57c0-d28b-0564a6c85068@arachelian.com>

On 02/19/18 19:36, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:
> whats invovled in makin an emulator?
> i have a chunk of stuff for the phillips p1000

Quite a lot actually.? A single CPU system is difficult enough, but a
mainframe might be much, much harder.? The idea to use an existing
emulator framework, such as SIMH, is a great one.

An easy implementation is to implement an interpretive CPU emulation at
first, and then later on add other things such as JITs or caching.
Does this machine implement microcode?? Do you want to emulate it all
the way down to the microcode level?? Is microcode changeable by the
OS/applications?? If not maybe implement the higher level (assuming
CISC) CPU layer.

There's a lot to consider.? The CPU(s), any co-processors, I/O
devices/busses, peripherals/terminals, etc.? Are you going to emulate
every co-processor in software, or is the system documented enough so
you can emulate just the protocols that the main CPU(s) use to talk to
those devices?? For example, many systems have some sort of storage
processors.? You could emulate everything 100% in software, but for that
you'd need disk and firmware dumps of everything.? Or, if the firmware
on those is fairly fixed, just emulate the functionality.

Are you planning on emulating the whole machine, or just the userland??
Might be easier to create a simulation of the OS in software on the host
side the way that Executor did with MacOS - Cliff implemented his own
version of MacOS 7.x, enough to be able to run most applications of that
era, but not all.? see: https://github.com/ctm/executor.git and
https://github.com/ctm/executor.git - some of this is called "High Level
Emulation" and is sort of what WINE does (though wine isn't an emulator).

You'll need to fully understand all aspects of the hardware of that
machine, every detail.? If you have schematics and can read them, they
can be an absolute gold mine as documentation sometimes is vague, and
looking at the schematics and resolve what actually happens.? If you
have source code for an OS, that too can be a great resource to help
understand what happens and how.

In terms of I/O. you'll be writing the reverse of what a driver will do
- so if you have docs on how to write drivers for that machine, you're
going to implement the hardware itself, in software, to match or connect
to drivers on the system.

Sometimes timing matters, sometimes it doesn't.? Where it doesn't, you
have the opportunity to improve execution speed by running at full speed
on the host.

You'll have to do lots of experimenting.? Queues tagged with future
events (i.e. at CPU_CYCLES+ONE_TENTH_THOUSANDTH_OF_A_SECOND, trigger IRQ
# 3 ), are a good way to go, or you could go the hard way and implement
a multi-process/thread emulator.

You'll have to implement more than 90% of a working emulator before
you'll even be able to see progress and know you're on the right track,
because more than likely you won't get far enough to get anything
starting to boot until that point.? Once you get there, you should
implement a debugger for yourself and write trace log mechanisms
throughout your code so you can turn on tracing at specific points to
see what your code is doing, then sit there and read megs and megs of
those logs until you figure out where it's going wrong vs actual hardware.

If it's possible to write a CPU tester (and device testers) on the real
thing, do that.? Run every CPU instruction through various edge cases,
look at the resulting status flags and log all registers in/out to a
database.? (This will easily be multi-gigabyte output).
For example. say you have a shift instruction on a 16 bit word.? What
happens when the register is 32 bits, and the carry flags are set and
you do a shift left by 18 times?? Yes, that doesn't make sense, I know.?
But an intel chip and 68000, and a SPARC, and a PPC, and ARM chip and a
POWER4 chip all produce totallly different results with such inputs, so
you can't assume it will just be handled by your host's CPU without a
lot of extra work.

And your emulator, if it's designed to be portable, must implement all
those weird edge cases.? And if you don't implement a portable emulator,
if it only runs on a current OS with a current chip, it will soon be
obsolete in a few years....

After you've built your test suite, run your emulated CPU against this
test frame, and flag any results that differ from what the physical
hardware generated.? Repeat that process with device hardware such as
tape drives, disk drives, etc.? Likely terminal emulation won't be too
hard if standard stuff like vt100 are supported as you can use existing
terminal emulators.? But other stuff will be hard.? Some, really, really
hard.? Other things will be easy.

Hopefully the documentation you have is complete enough to write a full
OS from scratch on that machine, if it isn't, then you may have to do a
lot of black box reverse engineering which is only possible if you have
access to working hardware and lots of time.

These are good resources to give you an idea of what you're in for:
?
?http://www.xsim.com/papers/Bario.2001.emubook.pdf
?https://fms.komkon.org/EMUL8/HOWTO.html
?https://www.reddit.com/r/EmuDev/

Good luck, you have a lot of work ahead of you.? If you can, I'd suggest
the first step would be to scan all the materials you have, find a bunch
of folks interested in your project and share it with them.? Be careful
as there's a lot of "emu scene" folks out there with tons of free time,
more than you might have, who will happily promise to help, but instead
take your documentation, firmware, OS images, etc. and compete with you
behind your back just to get there first, instead of actually helping
you with your project.? On this latter point, I sadly speak from experience.





From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Wed Feb 21 10:40:22 2018
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 09:40:22 -0700
Subject: Why don't you respect the mail threads?!
In-Reply-To: <CF1DEA9B-941D-45EC-A932-293B7BD5B747@swri.edu>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <6e074442-ea74-6540-c771-d3d9b36bee2c@hachti.de>
 <20180221153900.GN21580@Update.UU.SE>
 <CF1DEA9B-941D-45EC-A932-293B7BD5B747@swri.edu>
Message-ID: <a864458e-e372-5b20-88bb-09d65c742934@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 02/21/2018 08:57 AM, Tapley, Mark via cctalk wrote:
> I was one of the offenders. A list member politely pointed out to me 
> (in private mail) the existence of the of the in-reply-to header which my 
> client isn?t set to use. I had no idea! I?d been diligently changing 
> subject: headers when I hijacked threads, but to no avail. So, apologies 
> for my past bad behavior and I?ll try to do better in the future.

Thank you for your efforts Tapley.  :-)

We all have to strive to play well with others.  -  I think that was on 
one of my report cards decades ago.

> I would encourage you though, rather than give up, just politely be more 
> explicit about what is needed - it was ignorance rather than laziness 
> in my case which was the problem.

Hanlon's razor - Never attribute to malice that which is adequately 
explained by ignorance.

IMHO ignorance can be addressed with polite constructive feedback.

Willful ignorance ? well that's a different story.  And it might not be 
ignorance when it becomes willful.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Wed Feb 21 10:45:35 2018
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 09:45:35 -0700
Subject: Why don't you respect the mail threads?!
In-Reply-To: <6e074442-ea74-6540-c771-d3d9b36bee2c@hachti.de>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <6e074442-ea74-6540-c771-d3d9b36bee2c@hachti.de>
Message-ID: <49422a50-baff-5250-2752-fd70139669e0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 02/21/2018 05:26 AM, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk wrote:
> I have to say that I hate this email thread abuse so much...!

;-)

> Is it so difficult to leave the thread about PICTURES (fill in whatever 
> topic it was about) intact?

I suspect it's either people that don't know they are breaking threading 
or MUAs that behave badly.

I'm on a list where it seems as if a frequent contributer uses an MUA 
that does not send In-Reply-To or References headers at all.  It doesn't 
even send a User-Agent header.  *sigh*

> And on the other hand there are those people who seem to be unable to 
> create a prober reply to the list and therefore make threads appear 
> scattered and broken into many many pieces...

I've taken to leveraging Mutt's ability to "link-threads" (&) and 
"break-thread" (#) to ""fix things and make the thread appear like I 
want in Thunderbird.

> And yes, I know that I sent this message as a reply to another message.

I think your reply is in direct response to the message that it is 
replying to.  So ? I think you're on the lighter side of gray here.  :-)



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From ray at arachelian.com  Wed Feb 21 10:52:03 2018
From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 11:52:03 -0500
Subject: Writing emulators [Was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
In-Reply-To: <3B4D9DEB-48EC-40A1-A647-E46C4A4EEE54@comcast.net>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180220192231.GK21580@Update.UU.SE>
 <MWHPR14MB1600FE44A101F4A5C55B2409A3CF0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <CADyB93BZKgw7bv58gd45DKMxiA-5x6bf=sYFYExT1psmU1LcQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180221011809.GB27949@brevard.conman.org>
 <3B4D9DEB-48EC-40A1-A647-E46C4A4EEE54@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <04833a7d-e02a-277e-70ad-b486eb29c5a0@arachelian.com>

On 02/21/18 09:41, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
>
> SIMH in principle allows the writing of cycle-accurate CPU simulators, but I don't believe anyone has bothered.  It's hard to see why that would be all that interesting.  For some CPUs, the full definition of how long instructions take is extremely complex.  Take a look at the instruction timing appendix in a PDP-11 processor handbook, for example; there are dozens of possibilities even for simple instructions like MOV, and things get more interesting still on machines that have caches.
It's not really that hard to get cycle accurate counts (well, outside of
things like caching), typically you wouldn't emulate a CPU by doing a
big giant case statement, rather, you'd do something that has a lot of
in memory tables, and your instruction decode process will use those to
pick a pointer to a function call.? One of those fields in that big
array can be a set of cycles based on which kind of opcode and what its
operands are.? And then the function at the end of that function pointer
would update a global variable called maybe cycle_count with that
value.? It won't be perfect, but it will be close enough for most
situations, even those that track the position of a raster beam on a CRT
(which isn't likely to be the case in this particular thread.)

You'd also likely have some main loop that executes a certain number of
cycles - that's say linked to one frame of a CRT - to continue down that
metaphor (and marks any overflow which is subtracted from the next
frame), then allows other things to run, and then returns back to the
CPU.? So you'd also update the virtual clock based on CPU cycles and set
a throttle that limits the CPU to a certain MHz.? After a few of these
frames, you'd reach homeostasis and your emulator will run very close to
a machine of that MHz.? Usually you'll want the frames to be some
fraction of a second, in the CRT example 60Hz is ok, but maybe on a
mainframe, I don't know, maybe 1/100th of a second is better, etc.

It will likely never be perfectly cycle accurate without a ton of work,
but you only need that for video games where the CPU is used to draw on
a moving raster beam CRT, anyway.

Now, you don't want to run your emulated guest CPU(s) at full speed on
the host machine, because you'll overheat it, and typically, it'll run a
multi-process OS anyway and you don't want to starve the GUI, network
stack, and daemons of CPU cycles, so once you reach your goal MHz in
your guest CPU, you'd sleep and yield to the host OS for a bit, or maybe
do some background stuff like see if any I/Os or IRQs are pending (such
as maybe a keystroke from the user, or an incoming network packet, or
maybe the disk sector or tape sector your guest OS requested has
arrived), and handle those.



From ray at arachelian.com  Wed Feb 21 11:40:13 2018
From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 12:40:13 -0500
Subject: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!
In-Reply-To: <20180221131645.zez5rbfdtei5b5zi@mooli.org.uk>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180221131645.zez5rbfdtei5b5zi@mooli.org.uk>
Message-ID: <690472a5-9646-b030-3dd3-3d542533e149@arachelian.com>

On 02/21/18 08:16, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote:
>
> A programmer of modest ability should be able to knock up a simple
> switch()-based step-by-step CPU emulation in a few hours. This is analogous to
> a simple microcoded CPU and the performance will suck.
Yeah, please don't code this way.? Big huge case statements really suck.

Build a function that can decode opcodes and then dispatches to an array
of functions via pointers instead.
Build tables in the emulator that both help the opcode decoder (and
accelerate it), and also have fields in it that hold opcode cycle
timings, opcode sizes (so you can increment the IR - instruction
Register/Program Counter by the size of the opcode).

You could also cache the results of the opcode decoder, but you'll need
to do a bunch of memory management for that, and detect when a certain
place in memory has been overwritten with new code.
However, this can yield very useful information if you also add a bunch
of extra fields to your instruction cache such as what register values
were used before, what CPU cycle the last time it ran, whether that
opcode accessed I/O or RAM, what MMU context it was in, etc.

These extra bits of recoded "flight data" are gold when debugging or
reverse engineering the running OS/apps later.? For example on CPUs
which access I/O via memory space, if you see a MOVE to a register in a
disassembly, you don't really know what it's doing unless you see the
value in that register at the time it ran, and then you can think, Aha!?
0xfc0020 - that's this I/O register on this specific device here on this
bus, so it can help you locate I/O drivers in the kernel.

Now, you can also do something else that's interesting, if you reverse
engineer the driver a bit and find it's entry and exit points, basically
how it's called, and what it returns, you can trap that in your
emulator, so when your emulator's CPU calls that block of code, you
don't execute that native code, and rather, do whatever that driver does
natively and return the right values on the stack/registers/target
memory/etc.? And this can speed up your emulator quite a bit.? i.e. say
you have some code that loads a file from disk. Rather than emulating
several thousand opcodes, you can replace the whole thing with a block
read from a file and return back to the caller and skip all the
bit-banging.? (But do update the CPU cycle count).

If say, the firmware insists on checking the RAM by writing thousands of
different patterns over many megs of memory, you can detect that in your
emulator and skip it.? No need to make the user wait 5 minutes for the
machine to warm up.? Speed up the boot process.? (Well you can make
these things optional "hacks" that the user can enable or disable.)

> Making it *cycle-accurate* involves deep understanding of the emulated CPU's
> internal architecture. If part of the platform requires cycle-accurate timing
> for bit-banging some hardware device, you're going to need this.
Hopefully this is already documented, if not, having schematics might
help here, but would need lots of work.? (Assuming a multi IC CPU as
opposed to discrete CPU which would likely have great docs already.)

>
> Making it *fast* also involves being an expert in compiler backends for the
> target architecture, because this requires decompiling and then recompiling the
> code on the fly.
>
> ... and that's the easy bit. Now you get to emulate the hardware.
>
>
Yeah, it's a huge job, but I think in the end, it's totally worth it.?
Just takes a lot of commitment and free time, and a love for the machine
you're trying to emulate.




From echristopherson at gmail.com  Wed Feb 21 11:44:28 2018
From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 11:44:28 -0600
Subject: Writing emulators (was Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!)
In-Reply-To: <bdd3fd62-b192-57c0-d28b-0564a6c85068@arachelian.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <bdd3fd62-b192-57c0-d28b-0564a6c85068@arachelian.com>
Message-ID: <CADyB93COoiq93+xk=+f61hZ19iOmnxwitop=GX7mBGy8_P3wQQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 10:19 AM, Ray Arachelian via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 02/19/18 19:36, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:
> > whats invovled in makin an emulator?
> > i have a chunk of stuff for the phillips p1000
>
> Quite a lot actually.  A single CPU system is difficult enough, but a
> mainframe might be much, much harder.  The idea to use an existing
> emulator framework, such as SIMH, is a great one.
>

Ray, you've provided a few really excellent messages here.

[snip]

> Are you planning on emulating the whole machine, or just the userland?
> Might be easier to create a simulation of the OS in software on the host
> side the way that Executor did with MacOS - Cliff implemented his own
> version of MacOS 7.x, enough to be able to run most applications of that
> era, but not all.  see: https://github.com/ctm/executor.git and
> https://github.com/ctm/executor.git - some of this is called "High Level
> Emulation" and is sort of what WINE does (though wine isn't an emulator).
>

You put the same URL in twice there; did you intend for another URL?

I was quite a fan of Executor. It's cool to see that it's open source now.


> Be careful
> as there's a lot of "emu scene" folks out there with tons of free time,
> more than you might have, who will happily promise to help, but instead
> take your documentation, firmware, OS images, etc. and compete with you
> behind your back just to get there first, instead of actually helping
> you with your project.  On this latter point, I sadly speak from
> experience.
>

Wow, I didn't know about that. Good to know.

-- 
        Eric Christopherson

From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Wed Feb 21 12:06:26 2018
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 12:06:26 -0600
Subject: Why don't you respect the mail threads?!
In-Reply-To: <49422a50-baff-5250-2752-fd70139669e0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <6e074442-ea74-6540-c771-d3d9b36bee2c@hachti.de>
 <49422a50-baff-5250-2752-fd70139669e0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs22W+GRovjA_BzT46bKATeDPwEwCWawmr5NFXej5DWSgWg@mail.gmail.com>

mua?



On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 10:45 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 02/21/2018 05:26 AM, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk wrote:
>
>> I have to say that I hate this email thread abuse so much...!
>>
>
> ;-)
>
> Is it so difficult to leave the thread about PICTURES (fill in whatever
>> topic it was about) intact?
>>
>
> I suspect it's either people that don't know they are breaking threading
> or MUAs that behave badly.
>
> I'm on a list where it seems as if a frequent contributer uses an MUA that
> does not send In-Reply-To or References headers at all.  It doesn't even
> send a User-Agent header.  *sigh*
>
> And on the other hand there are those people who seem to be unable to
>> create a prober reply to the list and therefore make threads appear
>> scattered and broken into many many pieces...
>>
>
> I've taken to leveraging Mutt's ability to "link-threads" (&) and
> "break-thread" (#) to ""fix things and make the thread appear like I want
> in Thunderbird.
>
> And yes, I know that I sent this message as a reply to another message.
>>
>
> I think your reply is in direct response to the message that it is
> replying to.  So ? I think you're on the lighter side of gray here.  :-)
>
>
>
>
> --
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die
>

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Wed Feb 21 12:13:02 2018
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 11:13:02 -0700
Subject: Why don't you respect the mail threads?!
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs22W+GRovjA_BzT46bKATeDPwEwCWawmr5NFXej5DWSgWg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <6e074442-ea74-6540-c771-d3d9b36bee2c@hachti.de>
 <49422a50-baff-5250-2752-fd70139669e0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAA3rs22W+GRovjA_BzT46bKATeDPwEwCWawmr5NFXej5DWSgWg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8fe889b0-3069-d3e1-81e7-187871abb945@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 02/21/2018 11:06 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote:
> mua?

Mail User Agent

I.e. email client.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Wed Feb 21 12:36:29 2018
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 12:36:29 -0600
Subject: Writing emulators (was Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!)
In-Reply-To: <CADyB93COoiq93+xk=+f61hZ19iOmnxwitop=GX7mBGy8_P3wQQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <bdd3fd62-b192-57c0-d28b-0564a6c85068@arachelian.com>
 <CADyB93COoiq93+xk=+f61hZ19iOmnxwitop=GX7mBGy8_P3wQQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs21X9VUd5QdqVyg4G7_FdC-pnm+xkA8rT+MKQgrgtpeVEA@mail.gmail.com>

i dont think there is any physical hardware to test from left sept for
maybe part of the front panel and a tape drive sitting in europe in  museum
and a couple random bit in some private collections

drawings theres some but not allot. most of the known documentation is in
dutch and from what i understand i have the largest chunk of surviving
documents in english

https://imageshack.com/a/img924/4649/oyprpu.jpg
https://imageshack.com/a/img922/9277/19TwCI.jpg
https://imageshack.com/a/img922/9277/19TwCI.jpg

managed to aquire unused core sheets with this stuff was a nice bonus have
to get them framed at some point
https://imageshack.com/a/img922/841/kTGEiY.jpg

ill give those sites a look

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 11:44 AM, Eric Christopherson via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 10:19 AM, Ray Arachelian via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > On 02/19/18 19:36, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:
> > > whats invovled in makin an emulator?
> > > i have a chunk of stuff for the phillips p1000
> >
> > Quite a lot actually.  A single CPU system is difficult enough, but a
> > mainframe might be much, much harder.  The idea to use an existing
> > emulator framework, such as SIMH, is a great one.
> >
>
> Ray, you've provided a few really excellent messages here.
>
> [snip]
>
> > Are you planning on emulating the whole machine, or just the userland?
> > Might be easier to create a simulation of the OS in software on the host
> > side the way that Executor did with MacOS - Cliff implemented his own
> > version of MacOS 7.x, enough to be able to run most applications of that
> > era, but not all.  see: https://github.com/ctm/executor.git and
> > https://github.com/ctm/executor.git - some of this is called "High Level
> > Emulation" and is sort of what WINE does (though wine isn't an emulator).
> >
>
> You put the same URL in twice there; did you intend for another URL?
>
> I was quite a fan of Executor. It's cool to see that it's open source now.
>
>
> > Be careful
> > as there's a lot of "emu scene" folks out there with tons of free time,
> > more than you might have, who will happily promise to help, but instead
> > take your documentation, firmware, OS images, etc. and compete with you
> > behind your back just to get there first, instead of actually helping
> > you with your project.  On this latter point, I sadly speak from
> > experience.
> >
>
> Wow, I didn't know about that. Good to know.
>
> --
>         Eric Christopherson
>

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Wed Feb 21 12:46:26 2018
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 13:46:26 -0500
Subject: Writing emulators (was Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!)
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs21X9VUd5QdqVyg4G7_FdC-pnm+xkA8rT+MKQgrgtpeVEA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <bdd3fd62-b192-57c0-d28b-0564a6c85068@arachelian.com>
 <CADyB93COoiq93+xk=+f61hZ19iOmnxwitop=GX7mBGy8_P3wQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs21X9VUd5QdqVyg4G7_FdC-pnm+xkA8rT+MKQgrgtpeVEA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5A7FD5BD-B63D-4AC0-A221-5F8BD91E4153@comcast.net>



> On Feb 21, 2018, at 1:36 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> i dont think there is any physical hardware to test from left sept for
> maybe part of the front panel and a tape drive sitting in europe in  museum
> and a couple random bit in some private collections
> 
> drawings theres some but not allot. most of the known documentation is in
> dutch  ...

There are some people around who speak Dutch and are interested in classic computers.  I've done a bunch, but my interest is Electrologica so I don't want to divert to other architectures.

I wonder if Google Translate, or analogous services, would do a tolerable job on techical documents of this sort.

	paul


From ray at arachelian.com  Wed Feb 21 12:49:16 2018
From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 13:49:16 -0500
Subject: Writing emulators (was Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!)
In-Reply-To: <CADyB93COoiq93+xk=+f61hZ19iOmnxwitop=GX7mBGy8_P3wQQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <bdd3fd62-b192-57c0-d28b-0564a6c85068@arachelian.com>
 <CADyB93COoiq93+xk=+f61hZ19iOmnxwitop=GX7mBGy8_P3wQQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ad898d70-b33c-4ec9-3506-ecf6693134a8@arachelian.com>

On 02/21/18 12:44, Eric Christopherson wrote:
>
>     era, but not all.? see: https://github.com/ctm/executor.git
>     <https://github.com/ctm/executor.git> and
>     https://github.com/ctm/executor.git
>     <https://github.com/ctm/executor.git> - some of this is called
>     "High Level
>     Emulation" and is sort of what WINE does (though wine isn't an
>     emulator).
>
>
> You put the same URL in twice there; did you intend for another URL?
D'oh!? Meant to point to the wikipedia article about it that describes
how it works.? Sorry about that.? I guess I didn't hit Control-C in the
browser hard enough. :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executor_(software)




From paulkoning at comcast.net  Wed Feb 21 12:59:53 2018
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 13:59:53 -0500
Subject: Writing emulators (was Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!)
In-Reply-To: <bdd3fd62-b192-57c0-d28b-0564a6c85068@arachelian.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <bdd3fd62-b192-57c0-d28b-0564a6c85068@arachelian.com>
Message-ID: <E0D78581-AD83-4E6B-8A58-30D60F9FEB2F@comcast.net>



> On Feb 21, 2018, at 11:19 AM, Ray Arachelian via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On 02/19/18 19:36, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:
>> whats invovled in makin an emulator?
>> i have a chunk of stuff for the phillips p1000
> 
> Quite a lot actually.  A single CPU system is difficult enough, but a
> mainframe might be much, much harder.  The idea to use an existing
> emulator framework, such as SIMH, is a great one.
> 
> An easy implementation is to implement an interpretive CPU emulation at
> first, and then later on add other things such as JITs or caching.
> Does this machine implement microcode?  Do you want to emulate it all
> the way down to the microcode level?  Is microcode changeable by the
> OS/applications?  If not maybe implement the higher level (assuming
> CISC) CPU layer.

If microcode is not user-changeable, or if that capability is not a core feature, then you can easily omit it.  That tends to make the job much easier.  For example, I don't know that anyone emulates the PDP-11/60 WCS.  The absence of that emulation isn't a big deal, unless you want to run the Richy Lary PDP-8 emulator on that emulated 11/60.  (Has it been preserved?)

Caching doesn't change user-visible functionality, so I can't imagine wanting to emulate that.  The same goes for certain error handling.  I've seen an emulator that included support for bad parity and the instructions that control wrong-parity writing.  So you could run the diagnostic that handles memory parity errors.  But that's a pretty uncommon thing to do and I wouldn't bother.

> There's a lot to consider.  The CPU(s), any co-processors, I/O
> devices/busses, peripherals/terminals, etc.  Are you going to emulate
> every co-processor in software, or is the system documented enough so
> you can emulate just the protocols that the main CPU(s) use to talk to
> those devices?  For example, many systems have some sort of storage
> processors.  You could emulate everything 100% in software, but for that
> you'd need disk and firmware dumps of everything.  Or, if the firmware
> on those is fairly fixed, just emulate the functionality.

Typically you'd emulate the I/O device functionality, regardless of whether that is implemented in gates or in co-processor firmware.  That's the approach taken with the MSCP I/O device emulation in SIMH, or the disk controller emulation in the CDC 6000 emulator DtCyber.  All those use coprocessors, but the internals of those engines are much more obscure and much less documented than the APIs of the I/O devices, and finding executable code may also be very hard (never mind source code and assemblers).  For example, I have only seen UDA50 firmware once, on a listing on a desk in CXO back around 1981.

> .
> You'll need to fully understand all aspects of the hardware of that
> machine, every detail.  If you have schematics and can read them, they
> can be an absolute gold mine as documentation sometimes is vague, and
> looking at the schematics and resolve what actually happens.  If you
> have source code for an OS, that too can be a great resource to help
> understand what happens and how.

Exact emulation is ideal, but often not necessary.  What's required is emulation that delivers what the OS and drivers rely on.  Devices may have undocumented features, and bugs, that aren't touched by the software that you care about.  Just the documented features (from the programmer manuals) can often be sufficient, especially in well documented machines (DEC machines are examples of such, most of the time).  Sometimes you get surprised by some OS.  RSTS/E occasionally pokes at strange internals, perhaps to complain about a missing ECO that needs to be installed for the OS to be happy.

> ...
> You'll have to implement more than 90% of a working emulator before
> you'll even be able to see progress and know you're on the right track,

Handwritten short test sequences are very helpful for this.  While you'll need 90% or so for an OS to boot, you might need only 5% to test a few instructions entered via deposit commands.

	paul


From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Wed Feb 21 13:06:00 2018
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 13:06:00 -0600
Subject: Why don't you respect the mail threads?!
In-Reply-To: <6e074442-ea74-6540-c771-d3d9b36bee2c@hachti.de>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <6e074442-ea74-6540-c771-d3d9b36bee2c@hachti.de>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs21+RmRmRmX9gdNHdHB=FYSPREd=QcuKwJG3QtAQOSaJkA@mail.gmail.com>

because its not something i think of when asking a question

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 6:26 AM, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I have to say that I hate this email thread abuse so much...!
> Is it so difficult to leave the thread about PICTURES (fill in whatever
> topic it was about) intact? It would be so much better to start a new
> thread instead:
>
> - Does not disturb original discussion.
> - Can be found and identified easily: Do you think that you will find the
> <blah blah emulator intersting blah> easily in a few years if it's
> discussed under the caption "VCF PNW 2018: Picture!"?
>
> And on the other hand there are those people who seem to be unable to
> create a prober reply to the list and therefore make threads appear
> scattered and broken into many many pieces...
>
> Sorry for ranting, but I enjoyed the pictures and following discussion so
> much and now encountering that dumb emulator discussion in this place
> annoys me so much...!
> And yes, I know that I sent this message as a reply to another message.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Philipp
>
> On 19.02.2018 15:44, geneb via cctalk wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 18 Feb 2018, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>>
>> What do they have up there for Honeywell?  Any DPS-8?s?  I know they
>>> should have at least a box of GCOS-8 manuals (in hindsight, the only
>>> manuals I regret sending up there).
>>>
>>
>> Zane, they've got a DPS-8 maintenance/operator/? panel sitting right out
>> front.  It's fully operational and is connected via some magic hardware to
>> a Raspberry Pi running a Multics emulator. The guy that wrote the emulator
>> gave a talk that should be the first one you watch once Erik has a chance
>> to get the video posted.
>>
>
>

From aek at bitsavers.org  Wed Feb 21 13:09:46 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 11:09:46 -0800
Subject: Writing emulators [Was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
In-Reply-To: <3B4D9DEB-48EC-40A1-A647-E46C4A4EEE54@comcast.net>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180220192231.GK21580@Update.UU.SE>
 <MWHPR14MB1600FE44A101F4A5C55B2409A3CF0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <CADyB93BZKgw7bv58gd45DKMxiA-5x6bf=sYFYExT1psmU1LcQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180221011809.GB27949@brevard.conman.org>
 <3B4D9DEB-48EC-40A1-A647-E46C4A4EEE54@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <605d363f-7015-fcfc-086a-0742ff159664@bitsavers.org>



On 2/21/18 6:41 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:

> SIMH in principle allows the writing of cycle-accurate CPU simulators, but I don't believe anyone has bothered.

Atari 2600 requires it.
Any simulation of an embedded system that did cycle counting for timing
would require it as well.

One situation that isn't handled correctly in MAME right now is where a CPU is stalled by holding /WAIT
or /DTACK off to wait for a peripheral to acquire data, the way that the Tarbell floppy interface works,
for example.

That is tricky to cleanly and efficiently implement where each component is modeled independently and
glued together with a higher-level framework.


From aek at bitsavers.org  Wed Feb 21 13:11:34 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 11:11:34 -0800
Subject: Writing emulators (was Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!)
In-Reply-To: <E0D78581-AD83-4E6B-8A58-30D60F9FEB2F@comcast.net>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <bdd3fd62-b192-57c0-d28b-0564a6c85068@arachelian.com>
 <E0D78581-AD83-4E6B-8A58-30D60F9FEB2F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <9bc3aa9f-fb0b-9876-d4a8-2f44378f78a4@bitsavers.org>



On 2/21/18 10:59 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:

> The absence of that emulation isn't a big deal, unless you want to run the Richy Lary PDP-8 emulator on that emulated 11/60.  (Has it been preserved?)
> 
>

People have been searching for it for a while now, but it appears to have been lost.





From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Feb 21 13:11:46 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 11:11:46 -0800
Subject: Writing emulators [Was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
In-Reply-To: <20180220192231.GK21580@Update.UU.SE>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180220192231.GK21580@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <aa966074-f0ef-bfd0-1192-ef4ab1113bbc@sydex.com>

For what it's worth, I differentiate "cycle correct" from "real time".

That is, if you're talking about emulating non-mechanical devices,
"cycle correct" emulation should be fairly straightforward, but making
it "real time" (i.e. implementing an emulator such that it's
indistinguishable by an observer from the real thing) is considerably
more difficult.

Putting it another way, one can maintain a cycle counter in an emulator
whose contents are updated when certain tasks have been accomplished.
The real time needed to accomplish those tasks can vary widely, yet the
cycle count will still be quite accurate.


My .02 only
Chuck

From ray at arachelian.com  Wed Feb 21 13:12:14 2018
From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 14:12:14 -0500
Subject: Writing emulators (was Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!)
In-Reply-To: <ad898d70-b33c-4ec9-3506-ecf6693134a8@arachelian.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <bdd3fd62-b192-57c0-d28b-0564a6c85068@arachelian.com>
 <CADyB93COoiq93+xk=+f61hZ19iOmnxwitop=GX7mBGy8_P3wQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ad898d70-b33c-4ec9-3506-ecf6693134a8@arachelian.com>
Message-ID: <d9ac9cc0-6874-08f5-791e-9aff78ee7dd0@arachelian.com>

On 02/21/18 13:49, Ray Arachelian via cctalk wrote:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executor_(software)
>
One more, I point to this because it addresses quite a lot of stuff
that's needed to emulate a CPU, though you don't need to implement it
this way at all.

https://web.archive.org/web/20070609200435/http://www.ardi.com/synpaper.php

Generally these days, it doesn't pay to create a JIT, writing in C (or
even javascript in some instances) is enough of a portable "assembly"
language.
But yeah, do mind the endianness, integer sizes, etc.

Also Ferris Writes Emulators series is pretty good:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fsi9HPcyrU8&list=PL-sXmdrqqYYcL2Pvx9j7dwmdLqY7Mx8VY
(He's got a few more emulator related playlists in his channel beyond
this one that are worth a watch.)



From aek at bitsavers.org  Wed Feb 21 13:16:15 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 11:16:15 -0800
Subject: Writing emulators [Was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
In-Reply-To: <aa966074-f0ef-bfd0-1192-ef4ab1113bbc@sydex.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180220192231.GK21580@Update.UU.SE>
 <aa966074-f0ef-bfd0-1192-ef4ab1113bbc@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <5d6a974e-7703-867d-44cf-54780e4fce8a@bitsavers.org>



On 2/21/18 11:11 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

> Putting it another way, one can maintain a cycle counter in an emulator
> whose contents are updated when certain tasks have been accomplished.

Synchronization at start of instruction fetch, DMA complete, and firing of an interrupt
can hide a lot of timing inaccuracies.

Finding idle loops can help with host processor CPU resource consumption.


From ggs at shiresoft.com  Wed Feb 21 13:24:02 2018
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 11:24:02 -0800
Subject: Writing emulators (was Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!)
In-Reply-To: <E0D78581-AD83-4E6B-8A58-30D60F9FEB2F@comcast.net>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <bdd3fd62-b192-57c0-d28b-0564a6c85068@arachelian.com>
 <E0D78581-AD83-4E6B-8A58-30D60F9FEB2F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <14CE8A70-83C4-4542-AAD0-F0D90A46BD2E@shiresoft.com>



> On Feb 21, 2018, at 10:59 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> Caching doesn't change user-visible functionality, so I can't imagine wanting to emulate that.  The same goes for certain error handling.  I've seen an emulator that included support for bad parity and the instructions that control wrong-parity writing.  So you could run the diagnostic that handles memory parity errors.  But that's a pretty uncommon thing to do and I wouldn't bother.

I disagree, especially if you?re using an emulator for development.  Caching is one of those things that can go
horribly wrong and not having them emulated properly (or at all) can lead to bugs/behaviors that are significantly
different from real HW.  The same goes for error reporting/handling.  There are cases where errors may be expected
and not having them can cause the SW to behave differently.

> 
>> There's a lot to consider.  The CPU(s), any co-processors, I/O
>> devices/busses, peripherals/terminals, etc.  Are you going to emulate
>> every co-processor in software, or is the system documented enough so
>> you can emulate just the protocols that the main CPU(s) use to talk to
>> those devices?  For example, many systems have some sort of storage
>> processors.  You could emulate everything 100% in software, but for that
>> you'd need disk and firmware dumps of everything.  Or, if the firmware
>> on those is fairly fixed, just emulate the functionality.
> 
> Typically you'd emulate the I/O device functionality, regardless of whether that is implemented in gates or in co-processor firmware.  That's the approach taken with the MSCP I/O device emulation in SIMH, or the disk controller emulation in the CDC 6000 emulator DtCyber.  All those use coprocessors, but the internals of those engines are much more obscure and much less documented than the APIs of the I/O devices, and finding executable code may also be very hard (never mind source code and assemblers).  For example, I have only seen UDA50 firmware once, on a listing on a desk in CXO back around 1981.

It?s also what?s done in Hercules (S/370, 370/XA, 390, Z simulator) and the mainframe I/O is complex to say the least.

However, it is my belief (and I think others have also stated) that assuming infinitely fast I/O (e.g. no delays what so ever) can cause issues because in many cases the SW expects to be able to do some work between the time that the I/O is started and when it completes.

TTFN - Guy


From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 21 13:36:09 2018
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 19:36:09 +0000
Subject: Writing emulators (was Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!)
In-Reply-To: <9bc3aa9f-fb0b-9876-d4a8-2f44378f78a4@bitsavers.org>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <bdd3fd62-b192-57c0-d28b-0564a6c85068@arachelian.com>
 <E0D78581-AD83-4E6B-8A58-30D60F9FEB2F@comcast.net>,
 <9bc3aa9f-fb0b-9876-d4a8-2f44378f78a4@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <AM4PR0902MB1748B287ED84BFEDA96A543586CE0@AM4PR0902MB1748.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>


Van: Al Kossow via cctalk<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Verzonden: woensdag 21 februari 2018 20:11
Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Onderwerp: Re: Writing emulators (was Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!)



On 2/21/18 10:59 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:

> The absence of that emulation isn't a big deal, unless you want to run the Richy Lary PDP-8 emulator on that emulated 11/60.  (Has it been preserved?)
>

People have been searching for it for a while now, but it appears to have been lost.


I have a WCS module for the 11/60 (and an 11/60 to go with it), but I have never seen the required software.
I even forgot the names, something like ?microcode assembler? and linker. Are the assembler, etc tools available?
The 11/60 microcode for the PDP8 emulation is not helping much either if the required tools are gone.
Crazy idea ? I am repairing a dead 11/40 and learning a lot of how the CPU works. There are 256 microde instructions
all 56 bits (IIRC, too lazy to check now). If you install the EIS or FIS, you get new microcode instructions on top of the standard 256. ?Copying? how EIS and FIS add their micro instructions could be the basis of an 11/40 ?PDP-8? add-on, just like EIS and FIS ?
Yeah, I know, I started the paragraph with ?crazy idea? ?


From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Feb 21 13:37:19 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 11:37:19 -0800
Subject: Writing emulators [Was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
In-Reply-To: <5d6a974e-7703-867d-44cf-54780e4fce8a@bitsavers.org>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180220192231.GK21580@Update.UU.SE>
 <aa966074-f0ef-bfd0-1192-ef4ab1113bbc@sydex.com>
 <5d6a974e-7703-867d-44cf-54780e4fce8a@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <2c5d50a7-2b16-ccff-9b89-6dea858a9c05@sydex.com>

On 02/21/2018 11:16 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:

> Synchronization at start of instruction fetch, DMA complete, and firing of an interrupt
> can hide a lot of timing inaccuracies.

Speaking of emulation, does anyone here collect old ZyCAD or Cadence
hardware emulation rigs?

Just curious,
Chuck

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Wed Feb 21 13:37:29 2018
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 14:37:29 -0500
Subject: Writing emulators (was Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!)
In-Reply-To: <14CE8A70-83C4-4542-AAD0-F0D90A46BD2E@shiresoft.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <bdd3fd62-b192-57c0-d28b-0564a6c85068@arachelian.com>
 <E0D78581-AD83-4E6B-8A58-30D60F9FEB2F@comcast.net>
 <14CE8A70-83C4-4542-AAD0-F0D90A46BD2E@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <CFBCA862-7F5F-4287-B7D3-B6D2CCB5D2C0@comcast.net>



> On Feb 21, 2018, at 2:24 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Feb 21, 2018, at 10:59 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Caching doesn't change user-visible functionality, so I can't imagine wanting to emulate that.  The same goes for certain error handling.  I've seen an emulator that included support for bad parity and the instructions that control wrong-parity writing.  So you could run the diagnostic that handles memory parity errors.  But that's a pretty uncommon thing to do and I wouldn't bother.
> 
> I disagree, especially if you?re using an emulator for development.  Caching is one of those things that can go
> horribly wrong and not having them emulated properly (or at all) can lead to bugs/behaviors that are significantly
> different from real HW.  The same goes for error reporting/handling.  There are cases where errors may be expected
> and not having them can cause the SW to behave differently.

Yes, there may be cases where errors are expected.  For example, out of range address errors, which are used by memory size probing.  But wrong-parity errors are far less likely.

I saw it emulated on Dick Gruene's EL-X8 emulator, and tested by the associated test program he wrote (which compared bare-metal execution of the test program with execution of that same program on the emulator, just like what Ray suggested).  There is a CWI report that describes this, its pretty neat.  But apart from testing the compleness of his understanding and the emulation of the "write wrong parity" instruction, it didn't really add anything useful to any other software.  No OS or application I have found depends on that capability, so our SIMH based emulator omits this and no harm is done by that omission.

>>> ...
> 
> However, it is my belief (and I think others have also stated) that assuming infinitely fast I/O (e.g. no delays what so ever) can cause issues because in many cases the SW expects to be able to do some work between the time that the I/O is started and when it completes.

True, that is unfortunately a fairly common type of software bug.  And because it is, emulators have to work around those bugs.  I make it a point to call it a bug, though, because I don't want anyone to get the impression that OS programmers who wrote such things were doing the right thing.

	paul



From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 21 13:44:33 2018
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 19:44:33 +0000
Subject: Writing emulators (was Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!)
In-Reply-To: <CFBCA862-7F5F-4287-B7D3-B6D2CCB5D2C0@comcast.net>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <bdd3fd62-b192-57c0-d28b-0564a6c85068@arachelian.com>
 <E0D78581-AD83-4E6B-8A58-30D60F9FEB2F@comcast.net>
 <14CE8A70-83C4-4542-AAD0-F0D90A46BD2E@shiresoft.com>,
 <CFBCA862-7F5F-4287-B7D3-B6D2CCB5D2C0@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <AM4PR0902MB174862DFE99BFB4F7E66984A86CE0@AM4PR0902MB1748.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>


Van: Paul Koning via cctalk<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Verzonden: woensdag 21 februari 2018 20:37
Aan: Guy Sotomayor Jr<mailto:ggs at shiresoft.com>
CC: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Onderwerp: Re: Writing emulators (was Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!)


> However, it is my belief (and I think others have also stated) that assuming infinitely fast I/O (e.g. no delays what so ever) can cause issues because in many cases the SW expects to be able to do some work between the time that the I/O is started and when it completes.

True, that is unfortunately a fairly common type of software bug.  And because it is, emulators have to work around those bugs.  I make it a point to call it a bug, though, because I don't want anyone to get the impression that OS programmers who wrote such things were doing the right thing.

        paul

Yeah, I found that out when I was working on the PDP8/e emulation running on a 6809. OS/8 does that as well. After issueing the disk I/O it executes a few more instructions, because it ?knows? that the requested disk data cannot yet have been loaded into memory. I solved that problem with a counter that can be preset to some TBD value. The value defines the number of extra emulated instructions before it jumps to the (now) loaded data from disk ? at least, that is how I remember it doing over 10 years ago. I have an extensive webpage on pdp8 emulation on 6809. I succeeded in finishing it: booting OS/8 and running spacewr on it!
Don?t ask how ?fast? it ran ?

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Wed Feb 21 13:44:42 2018
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 14:44:42 -0500
Subject: Writing emulators (was Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!)
In-Reply-To: <E0D78581-AD83-4E6B-8A58-30D60F9FEB2F@comcast.net>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <bdd3fd62-b192-57c0-d28b-0564a6c85068@arachelian.com>
 <E0D78581-AD83-4E6B-8A58-30D60F9FEB2F@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAALmimke87jDygV=aK-r6qiU78VB=t_Xj2FDG9u1f6pC9uox3A@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 1:59 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> If microcode is not user-changeable, or if that capability is not a core feature, then you can easily omit it.  That tends to make the job much easier.  For example, I don't know that anyone emulates the PDP-11/60 WCS.  The absence of that emulation isn't a big deal, unless you want to run the Richy Lary PDP-8 emulator on that emulated 11/60.  (Has it been preserved?)

I have long heard of the PDP-8 emulator that depends on the 11/60 WCS
but every time it comes up, it's always been said to be lost.

Feel free to prove me wrong, anyone.  I'd love to stare at it.

-ethan

From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 21 13:47:31 2018
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 19:47:31 +0000
Subject: Writing emulators (was Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!)
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimke87jDygV=aK-r6qiU78VB=t_Xj2FDG9u1f6pC9uox3A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <bdd3fd62-b192-57c0-d28b-0564a6c85068@arachelian.com>
 <E0D78581-AD83-4E6B-8A58-30D60F9FEB2F@comcast.net>,
 <CAALmimke87jDygV=aK-r6qiU78VB=t_Xj2FDG9u1f6pC9uox3A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AM4PR0902MB1748CD4C2508E73C4D8DAF9F86CE0@AM4PR0902MB1748.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>


Van: Ethan Dicks via cctalk<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Verzonden: woensdag 21 februari 2018 20:44
Aan: Paul Koning<mailto:paulkoning at comcast.net>; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Onderwerp: Re: Writing emulators (was Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!)

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 1:59 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> If microcode is not user-changeable, or if that capability is not a core feature, then you can easily omit it.  That tends to make the job much easier.  For example, I don't know that anyone emulates the PDP-11/60 WCS.  The absence of that emulation isn't a big deal, unless you want to run the Richy Lary PDP-8 emulator on that emulated 11/60.  (Has it been preserved?)

I have long heard of the PDP-8 emulator that depends on the 11/60 WCS
but every time it comes up, it's always been said to be lost.

Feel free to prove me wrong, anyone.  I'd love to stare at it.

-ethan

Tekst on my website:

The only other PDP-11 that has a WCS option (KUV11, M8018) is the PDP-11/03, KD11-F processor.
Ritchie Lary wrote the micro-code for the PDP-11/60 to emulate the PDP-8 instruction set, making it the "fastest PDP-8 ever".
It is a pity that the source code seems to be lost. Even Ritchie Lary, the author, no longer had the source when Eric Smith inquired some years back (~2011 - 2012), and Ritchie did not think that anyone else was likely to have it. So, it appears to be lost forever.

?

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Wed Feb 21 13:54:22 2018
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 14:54:22 -0500
Subject: Writing emulators (was Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!)
In-Reply-To: <AM4PR0902MB1748CD4C2508E73C4D8DAF9F86CE0@AM4PR0902MB1748.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <bdd3fd62-b192-57c0-d28b-0564a6c85068@arachelian.com>
 <E0D78581-AD83-4E6B-8A58-30D60F9FEB2F@comcast.net>
 <CAALmimke87jDygV=aK-r6qiU78VB=t_Xj2FDG9u1f6pC9uox3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <AM4PR0902MB1748CD4C2508E73C4D8DAF9F86CE0@AM4PR0902MB1748.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CC506167-A2C2-4024-9CB8-36143D07068C@comcast.net>



> On Feb 21, 2018, at 2:47 PM, Henk Gooijen via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> ...
> Tekst on my website:
> 
> The only other PDP-11 that has a WCS option (KUV11, M8018) is the PDP-11/03, KD11-F processor.
> Ritchie Lary wrote the micro-code for the PDP-11/60 to emulate the PDP-8 instruction set, making it the "fastest PDP-8 ever".

A few more snippets of information: it was used by the WPS-8 development group in Merrimack, NH (a few cubes over from my first office at DEC).  The host ran RSTS/E, and there was a RSTS "Runtime System" as part of the machinery.

I've never seen any of the code; the brief description above is all I know.

	paul



From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Wed Feb 21 14:15:28 2018
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 21:15:28 +0100
Subject: Writing emulators (was Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!)
In-Reply-To: <AM4PR0902MB174862DFE99BFB4F7E66984A86CE0@AM4PR0902MB1748.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>
References: <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <bdd3fd62-b192-57c0-d28b-0564a6c85068@arachelian.com>
 <E0D78581-AD83-4E6B-8A58-30D60F9FEB2F@comcast.net>
 <14CE8A70-83C4-4542-AAD0-F0D90A46BD2E@shiresoft.com>
 <CFBCA862-7F5F-4287-B7D3-B6D2CCB5D2C0@comcast.net>
 <AM4PR0902MB174862DFE99BFB4F7E66984A86CE0@AM4PR0902MB1748.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <20180221201527.GP21580@Update.UU.SE>

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 07:44:33PM +0000, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote:
> 
> Van: Paul Koning via cctalk<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Verzonden: woensdag 21 februari 2018 20:37
> Aan: Guy Sotomayor Jr<mailto:ggs at shiresoft.com>
> CC: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Onderwerp: Re: Writing emulators (was Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!)
> 
> 
> > However, it is my belief (and I think others have also stated) that assuming infinitely fast I/O (e.g. no delays what so ever) can cause issues because in many cases the SW expects to be able to do some work between the time that the I/O is started and when it completes.
> 
> True, that is unfortunately a fairly common type of software bug.  And because it is, emulators have to work around those bugs.  I make it a point to call it a bug, though, because I don't want anyone to get the impression that OS programmers who wrote such things were doing the right thing.
> 
>         paul
> 
> Yeah, I found that out when I was working on the PDP8/e emulation running on a 6809. OS/8 does that as well. After issueing the disk I/O it executes a few more instructions, because it ?knows? that the requested disk data cannot yet have been loaded into memory. I solved that problem with a counter that can be preset to some TBD value. The value defines the number of extra emulated instructions before it jumps to the (now) loaded data from disk ? at least, that is how I remember it doing over 10 years ago. I have an extensive webpage on pdp8 emulation on 6809. I succeeded in finishing it: booting OS/8 and running spacewr on it!
> Don?t ask how ?fast? it ran ?


While I too might consider it a bug and bad style. The OS/8 guys knew 
exactly what hardware they would support and probably gained some 
performance by doing it "wrong"

Do you have a link to your work?

/P

From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 21 14:20:01 2018
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 20:20:01 +0000
Subject: Writing emulators (was Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!)
In-Reply-To: <20180221201527.GP21580@Update.UU.SE>
References: <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <bdd3fd62-b192-57c0-d28b-0564a6c85068@arachelian.com>
 <E0D78581-AD83-4E6B-8A58-30D60F9FEB2F@comcast.net>
 <14CE8A70-83C4-4542-AAD0-F0D90A46BD2E@shiresoft.com>
 <CFBCA862-7F5F-4287-B7D3-B6D2CCB5D2C0@comcast.net>
 <AM4PR0902MB174862DFE99BFB4F7E66984A86CE0@AM4PR0902MB1748.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>,
 <20180221201527.GP21580@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <AM4PR0902MB174869F9CB25E6C5B18B7BC686CE0@AM4PR0902MB1748.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>



Van: Pontus Pihlgren<mailto:pontus at Update.UU.SE>
Verzonden: woensdag 21 februari 2018 21:15
Aan: Henk Gooijen<mailto:henk.gooijen at hotmail.com>; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>
CC: Paul Koning<mailto:paulkoning at comcast.net>
Onderwerp: Re: Writing emulators (was Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!)

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 07:44:33PM +0000, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote:
>
> Van: Paul Koning via cctalk<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Verzonden: woensdag 21 februari 2018 20:37
> Aan: Guy Sotomayor Jr<mailto:ggs at shiresoft.com>
> CC: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Onderwerp: Re: Writing emulators (was Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!)
>
>
> > However, it is my belief (and I think others have also stated) that assuming infinitely fast I/O (e.g. no delays what so ever) can cause issues because in many cases the SW expects to be able to do some work between the time that the I/O is started and when it completes.
>
> True, that is unfortunately a fairly common type of software bug.  And because it is, emulators have to work around those bugs.  I make it a point to call it a bug, though, because I don't want anyone to get the impression that OS programmers who wrote such things were doing the right thing.
>
>         paul
>
> Yeah, I found that out when I was working on the PDP8/e emulation running on a 6809. OS/8 does that as well. After issueing the disk I/O it executes a few more instructions, because it ?knows? that the requested disk data cannot yet have been loaded into memory. I solved that problem with a counter that can be preset to some TBD value. The value defines the number of extra emulated instructions before it jumps to the (now) loaded data from disk ? at least, that is how I remember it doing over 10 years ago. I have an extensive webpage on pdp8 emulation on 6809. I succeeded in finishing it: booting OS/8 and running spacewr on it!
> Don?t ask how ?fast? it ran ?


While I too might consider it a bug and bad style. The OS/8 guys knew
exactly what hardware they would support and probably gained some
performance by doing it "wrong"

Do you have a link to your work?

/P


Direct link: www.pdp-11/nl/homebrew/pdp8/pdp8startpage.html<http://www.pdp-11/nl/homebrew/pdp8/pdp8startpage.html>
It is a long story! From the start to a working emulation with lots of debug facilities (as found on HP64000 development systems). But this emulation runs the pdp8 diagnostics without errors.


From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 21 14:22:33 2018
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 20:22:33 +0000
Subject: Writing emulators (was Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!)
In-Reply-To: <AM4PR0902MB174869F9CB25E6C5B18B7BC686CE0@AM4PR0902MB1748.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>
References: <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <bdd3fd62-b192-57c0-d28b-0564a6c85068@arachelian.com>
 <E0D78581-AD83-4E6B-8A58-30D60F9FEB2F@comcast.net>
 <14CE8A70-83C4-4542-AAD0-F0D90A46BD2E@shiresoft.com>
 <CFBCA862-7F5F-4287-B7D3-B6D2CCB5D2C0@comcast.net>
 <AM4PR0902MB174862DFE99BFB4F7E66984A86CE0@AM4PR0902MB1748.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>,
 <20180221201527.GP21580@Update.UU.SE>,
 <AM4PR0902MB174869F9CB25E6C5B18B7BC686CE0@AM4PR0902MB1748.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <AM4PR0902MB1748B0A910AA54EB93ABB0A286CE0@AM4PR0902MB1748.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>


Van: Henk Gooijen via cctalk<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Verzonden: woensdag 21 februari 2018 21:20
Aan: Pontus Pihlgren<mailto:pontus at Update.UU.SE>; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Onderwerp: RE: Writing emulators (was Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!)



Van: Pontus Pihlgren<mailto:pontus at Update.UU.SE>
Verzonden: woensdag 21 februari 2018 21:15
Aan: Henk Gooijen<mailto:henk.gooijen at hotmail.com>; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>
CC: Paul Koning<mailto:paulkoning at comcast.net>
Onderwerp: Re: Writing emulators (was Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!)

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 07:44:33PM +0000, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote:
>
> Van: Paul Koning via cctalk<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Verzonden: woensdag 21 februari 2018 20:37
> Aan: Guy Sotomayor Jr<mailto:ggs at shiresoft.com>
> CC: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Onderwerp: Re: Writing emulators (was Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!)
>
>
> > However, it is my belief (and I think others have also stated) that assuming infinitely fast I/O (e.g. no delays what so ever) can cause issues because in many cases the SW expects to be able to do some work between the time that the I/O is started and when it completes.
>
> True, that is unfortunately a fairly common type of software bug.  And because it is, emulators have to work around those bugs.  I make it a point to call it a bug, though, because I don't want anyone to get the impression that OS programmers who wrote such things were doing the right thing.
>
>         paul
>
> Yeah, I found that out when I was working on the PDP8/e emulation running on a 6809. OS/8 does that as well. After issueing the disk I/O it executes a few more instructions, because it ?knows? that the requested disk data cannot yet have been loaded into memory. I solved that problem with a counter that can be preset to some TBD value. The value defines the number of extra emulated instructions before it jumps to the (now) loaded data from disk ? at least, that is how I remember it doing over 10 years ago. I have an extensive webpage on pdp8 emulation on 6809. I succeeded in finishing it: booting OS/8 and running spacewr on it!
> Don?t ask how ?fast? it ran ?


While I too might consider it a bug and bad style. The OS/8 guys knew
exactly what hardware they would support and probably gained some
performance by doing it "wrong"

Do you have a link to your work?

/P


Direct link: www.pdp-11/nl/homebrew/pdp8/pdp8startpage.html<http://www.pdp-11/nl/homebrew/pdp8/pdp8startpage.html<http://www.pdp-11/nl/homebrew/pdp8/pdp8startpage.html%3chttp:/www.pdp-11/nl/homebrew/pdp8/pdp8startpage.html>>
It is a long story! From the start to a working emulation with lots of debug facilities (as found on HP64000 development systems). But this emulation runs the pdp8 diagnostics without errors.
Oops, typo.
Change /nl to .nl
www.pdp-11.nl/homebrew/pdp8/pdp8startpage.html<http://www.pdp-11.nl/homebrew/pdp8/pdp8startpage.html>


From aek at bitsavers.org  Wed Feb 21 14:28:47 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 12:28:47 -0800
Subject: Writing emulators [Was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
In-Reply-To: <2c5d50a7-2b16-ccff-9b89-6dea858a9c05@sydex.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180220192231.GK21580@Update.UU.SE>
 <aa966074-f0ef-bfd0-1192-ef4ab1113bbc@sydex.com>
 <5d6a974e-7703-867d-44cf-54780e4fce8a@bitsavers.org>
 <2c5d50a7-2b16-ccff-9b89-6dea858a9c05@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <b84ef14b-405b-9177-737b-470ae3adc758@bitsavers.org>

That actually just came up for discussion in a donation review meeting this week at
CHM.

I don't know if they're that interesting w/o the software and documentation, and even
then, these things were all locked down with licenses, except for the really early ones
like Daisy and Valid.

On 2/21/18 11:37 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

> Speaking of emulation, does anyone here collect old ZyCAD or Cadence
> hardware emulation rigs?


From aek at bitsavers.org  Wed Feb 21 14:33:16 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 12:33:16 -0800
Subject: Writing emulators (was Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!)
In-Reply-To: <AM4PR0902MB1748CD4C2508E73C4D8DAF9F86CE0@AM4PR0902MB1748.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <bdd3fd62-b192-57c0-d28b-0564a6c85068@arachelian.com>
 <E0D78581-AD83-4E6B-8A58-30D60F9FEB2F@comcast.net>
 <CAALmimke87jDygV=aK-r6qiU78VB=t_Xj2FDG9u1f6pC9uox3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <AM4PR0902MB1748CD4C2508E73C4D8DAF9F86CE0@AM4PR0902MB1748.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <db92b2c6-6b63-f737-6f64-cebfbb0b0f66@bitsavers.org>



On 2/21/18 11:47 AM, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote:

> The only other PDP-11 that has a WCS option (KUV11, M8018) is the PDP-11/03, KD11-F processor.

A group at Livermore wrote part of a P-System interpreter that ran on the KUV11.

http://bitsavers.org/pdf/llnl/UCID-18046_LSI-11_Writable_Control_Store_Enhancements_to_UCSD_Pascal_Jan79.pdf


From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com  Wed Feb 21 14:48:42 2018
From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 12:48:42 -0800
Subject: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!
In-Reply-To: <03D01865-7822-4624-9B5D-B6091A063D68@avanthar.com>
References: <20180219145152.3E7B918C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <03D01865-7822-4624-9B5D-B6091A063D68@avanthar.com>
Message-ID: <CANV78LT5H1Gj0rbPfy3Xy9pjUT9tgic=A-_8R2x29PmbPQ2z=w@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 6:45 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> > On Feb 19, 2018, at 6:51 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Really the H6180 looks a lot more like the DPS-8 I remember.  We had a
> single CPU Dev system, and a 4 CPU Production system running GCOS-8.  I
> thought I might have some drawings of the panels, but if I do they?re in
> the garage somewhere.  Another site, had a DPS-8000, our site was pretty
> old, and had been upgraded over time.  For example the memory cabinets were
> mostly empty, due to upgrades.
>
>
The DPS8 and DPS8/M did away with the blinking light panels. However, it
was possible to mix 6080 and DPS8 CPUs in a system; you may be remembering
a 6080 that was the original CPU in a system that had acquired DPS8 CPU and
SCU upgrades?

-- Charles

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed Feb 21 15:05:05 2018
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 13:05:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why don't you respect the mail threads?!
In-Reply-To: <8fe889b0-3069-d3e1-81e7-187871abb945@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <6e074442-ea74-6540-c771-d3d9b36bee2c@hachti.de>
 <49422a50-baff-5250-2752-fd70139669e0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAA3rs22W+GRovjA_BzT46bKATeDPwEwCWawmr5NFXej5DWSgWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8fe889b0-3069-d3e1-81e7-187871abb945@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802211304060.11132@shell.lmi.net>

>> mua?
>
> Mail User Agent
> I.e. email client.

Not likely to be related to Oumuamua



From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com  Wed Feb 21 15:12:11 2018
From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 13:12:11 -0800
Subject: Writing emulators [Was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
In-Reply-To: <04833a7d-e02a-277e-70ad-b486eb29c5a0@arachelian.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180220192231.GK21580@Update.UU.SE>
 <MWHPR14MB1600FE44A101F4A5C55B2409A3CF0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <CADyB93BZKgw7bv58gd45DKMxiA-5x6bf=sYFYExT1psmU1LcQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180221011809.GB27949@brevard.conman.org>
 <3B4D9DEB-48EC-40A1-A647-E46C4A4EEE54@comcast.net>
 <04833a7d-e02a-277e-70ad-b486eb29c5a0@arachelian.com>
Message-ID: <CANV78LTbMzVe8N+bf6SrG9SAtTG3zw7earvK84GHLJ+8h4OzLw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 8:52 AM, Ray Arachelian via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Now, you don't want to run your emulated guest CPU(s) at full speed on
> the host machine, because you'll overheat it, and typically, it'll run a
> multi-process OS anyway and you don't want to starve the GUI, network
> stack, and daemons of CPU cycles, so once you reach your goal MHz in
> your guest CPU, you'd sleep and yield to the host OS for a bit, or maybe
> do some background stuff like see if any I/Os or IRQs are pending (such
> as maybe a keystroke from the user, or an incoming network packet, or
> maybe the disk sector or tape sector your guest OS requested has
> arrived), and handle those.
>
> For the case of Multics on the DPS8/M, the idle loop is implemented with
the "DIS" instruction -- Delay until Interrupt -- which stalls the DPS8/M
CPU until an interrupt or the Timer Register runs out. The Timer Register
is set for 1/4 second. The emulator implements the DIS instruction by
sleeping for 10 milliseconds, checking for I/O events, decrementing the
Timer Register by 10 ms and checking for runout, otherwise repeat. The host
CPU shows <1% usage for a idling Multics system.

This configuration was arrived at through an iterative process of
understanding how Multics uses the Timer Register and trying to figure out
how to implement a 512KHz countdown register in software without excessive
overhead.

Writing an good emulation can require more then understanding the hardware
-- the way the software uses the hardware can help make design decisions.
Because Multics only uses the Timer Register for process scheduling, and
the quantum is always 1/4 second, having a low-resolution timer was
perfectly acceptable and easily implementable.

-- Charles

From cube1 at charter.net  Wed Feb 21 09:44:13 2018
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 09:44:13 -0600
Subject: qd32 trouble
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfBYnWCfn2wTV95dAsOUvsriPLkdurDV6phWZSnkVxYL3g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfBYnWCfn2wTV95dAsOUvsriPLkdurDV6phWZSnkVxYL3g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <10a3a5cd-e5d5-7b8e-f382-27f930623944@charter.net>

I *might* be able to help, *if* you also have a MicroVax you can plug
this controller into - eventually (months).  I have a pair of MicroVaxen
with Emulex QD32 SMD controllers in my collection.  (My inventory shows
them as QD325, but I expect that is a misnomer; my notes indicate QD32).

With those machines I also got an Emulex Diagnostic tape, VX9962004 Rev
J.  My notes indicate it has these diagnostics:

FQD01M MSCP Formatter:  QD01, QD32, SC03
FVD03M: UCxx Host Adapter Format
FVD32M MSCP Formatter: QD01, QD32, SC41, SC03
IQC02: DHV11 Option of CS02/H Diagnostic
IQT12: TS11 Compatible QT12/TC03 Diagnostic
IVC23E: CS23/CS04 Diagnostic

I have not used that tape in several years, though, I don't seem to have
made an image of that tape at this point (shame on me).  (Now on my ToDo
list - but it will probably be a couple of months).

On 2/20/2018 5:49 PM, Jacob Ritorto via cctalk wrote:
> Hi all,
>   Would anyone here be able to help me troubleshoot my qd32 controller?  I
> have a pdp11/73 that's mostly working, boots 2.11bsd from rl02 okay, but I
> need my big disk to work so I can load the rest of the distro.
>   I've been following the manual for the qd32 to enter the geometry of my
> real working Fuji m2333 (jumpered correctly according to the manuals), but
> when I load the special command into the qd32's SP register that's supposed
> to load the geometry table I entered in pdp11 memory to the qd32's novram,
> I get a bad status value from the qd32's SP register and it remains
> unresponsive when I try to store the geometry.  If I go ahead and try the
> built-in qd32 format command, it responds similarly.  When I pull in mkfs
> from tape (vtserver) and try anyway, despite the failures, to run mkfs on
> the m2333, I get an !online error from the standalone unix mkfs.  The disk
> does respond (the select light flashes and I can hear heads actuating), but
> without geometry and format, I'm obviously dead in the water.
> 
>   I understand that there used to exist some Emulex qd32/pdp11 diagnostics
> that could help the situation, but my previous attempts to find copies have
> come up short.
> 
>   Any suggestions on how to proceed?
> 
> thx
> jake
> 

From web at loomcom.com  Wed Feb 21 13:32:29 2018
From: web at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 11:32:29 -0800
Subject: Writing emulators (was Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!)
In-Reply-To: <14CE8A70-83C4-4542-AAD0-F0D90A46BD2E@shiresoft.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <bdd3fd62-b192-57c0-d28b-0564a6c85068@arachelian.com>
 <E0D78581-AD83-4E6B-8A58-30D60F9FEB2F@comcast.net>
 <14CE8A70-83C4-4542-AAD0-F0D90A46BD2E@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <87eflexho2.fsf@loomcom.com>


Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk writes:

>> On Feb 21, 2018, at 10:59 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Caching doesn't change user-visible functionality, so I can't imagine
>> wanting to emulate that.  The same goes for certain error handling.
>> I've seen an emulator that included support for bad parity and the
>> instructions that control wrong-parity writing.  So you could run the
>> diagnostic that handles memory parity errors.  But that's a pretty
>> uncommon thing to do and I wouldn't bother.
>
> I disagree, especially if you?re using an emulator for development.
> Caching is one of those things that can go horribly wrong and not
> having them emulated properly (or at all) can lead to bugs/behaviors
> that are significantly different from real HW.

I'd like to echo this, depending on the caching and the behavior of the
system. In writing the 3B2/400 emulator, I was at first reluctant to
write an accurate emulation of the MMU cache, feeling it unnecessary.  I
very quickly learned that it was not only necessary, but essential to a
correctly running system. Moreover, it had to have the same caching
algorithm as the real hardware to get UNIX SVR3 running happily.

> TTFN - Guy

-Seth
--
Seth Morabito
https://loomcom.com/
web at loomcom.com

From RichA at livingcomputers.org  Wed Feb 21 14:19:41 2018
From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 20:19:41 +0000
Subject: Writing emulators (was Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!)
In-Reply-To: <14CE8A70-83C4-4542-AAD0-F0D90A46BD2E@shiresoft.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <bdd3fd62-b192-57c0-d28b-0564a6c85068@arachelian.com>
 <E0D78581-AD83-4E6B-8A58-30D60F9FEB2F@comcast.net>
 <14CE8A70-83C4-4542-AAD0-F0D90A46BD2E@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <39a943ccd22e4e1fa155d02c0e10be16@livingcomputers.org>

From: Guy Sotomayor Jr
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2018 11:24 AM

>> On Feb 21, 2018, at 10:59 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>> wrote:

>> Typically you'd emulate the I/O device functionality, regardless of whether
>> that is implemented in gates or in co-processor firmware.  That's the
>> approach taken with the MSCP I/O device emulation in SIMH, or the disk
>> controller emulation in the CDC 6000 emulator DtCyber.

> It?s also what?s done in Hercules (S/370, 370/XA, 390, Z simulator) and the
> mainframe I/O is complex to say the least.

Also the method used by the KLH10 emulator (KS-10, KS-10/ITS microcode, KL-10).
There, each device type runs in a separate fork, using System V style memory
mapping.  This of course means that it only runs under certain Unix variants.

                                                                Rich

From RichA at livingcomputers.org  Wed Feb 21 14:25:21 2018
From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 20:25:21 +0000
Subject: SimH DECtape vs. Tops-10 [was RE: Writing emulators [Was: Re: VCF PNW
 2018: Pictures!]]
Message-ID: <3fb939928e414f54ac79070102a9822b@livingcomputers.org>

From: Paul Koning
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2018 6:41 AM

> And while there is roughly-accurate simulation of DECtape in SIMH (presumably
> for TOPS-10 overlapped seek to work?)

It's not for Tops-10.  SimH only provides the KS-10 processor[1], so DECtape is
not a possible peripheral.

                                                                Rich

[1] Although there is a KA-10 in the works.

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Wed Feb 21 15:23:38 2018
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 16:23:38 -0500
Subject: Writing emulators [Was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
In-Reply-To: <aa966074-f0ef-bfd0-1192-ef4ab1113bbc@sydex.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180220192231.GK21580@Update.UU.SE>
 <aa966074-f0ef-bfd0-1192-ef4ab1113bbc@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmim=V3m2LsstwFKOSyV57bQAzGU=sj=mqpymk752Ji_WCmQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 2:11 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> For what it's worth, I differentiate "cycle correct" from "real time".

Agreed.  I've been testing Z-80 emulators over the past year because a
CP/M game (Scott Adams' Adventures) depends on the R register being
refreshed as the cycles tick on because it's used as a cheap source of
entropy for the RNG.  It doesn't happen to matter if it's 100% cycle
exact for the game to work (though a less thorough implementation
_does_ affect the RNG) and it doesn't matter at all how many
real-world microseconds have elapsed.

The issue comes about because some simple Z-80 implementations
(including the version of the Altair emulator that came out with SIMH
3.9) didn't bother to implement the R register because in a real Z-80
the primary purpose of it is to generate 7-bit refresh timing for 16K
(and some 64K) DRAMs.  With no need to refresh emulated RAM, R wasn't
ever incremented.

A 100% cycle-correct implementation of R is slightly complicated
because of the circumstances of which exact part of a complicated
cycle sequence do and do not increment R.  I made some non-functional
code work just by hacking emulators to blindly increment R once for
every instruction.  Not 100% correct, but correct enough.

> Putting it another way, one can maintain a cycle counter in an emulator
> whose contents are updated when certain tasks have been accomplished.

Yes.  The 100% cycle-correct R implementation just has to track the
amount to increment R for each specific class of instruction to attain
the original behavior.

Altair for SIMH has been fixed, and I can say that the Z-80 emulation
for the Commodore 128 in VICE has been correct for quite some time (I
didn't do a lot of regression testing there - every version I tried,
worked.)

So, yeah... there is code out there that depends on buried features
specific to hardware implementation of cycles - but time-correct
emulation is not often required.

-ethan

From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com  Wed Feb 21 15:48:17 2018
From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 13:48:17 -0800
Subject: Writing emulators (was Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!)
In-Reply-To: <14CE8A70-83C4-4542-AAD0-F0D90A46BD2E@shiresoft.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <bdd3fd62-b192-57c0-d28b-0564a6c85068@arachelian.com>
 <E0D78581-AD83-4E6B-8A58-30D60F9FEB2F@comcast.net>
 <14CE8A70-83C4-4542-AAD0-F0D90A46BD2E@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <CANV78LQzErDYc7Q_Ui-Kv5+ODi+5FCRw4aACppHm-WgPENKB3g@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 11:24 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
>
> > On Feb 21, 2018, at 10:59 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Caching doesn't change user-visible functionality, so I can't imagine
> wanting to emulate that.  The same goes for certain error handling.  I've
> seen an emulator that included support for bad parity and the instructions
> that control wrong-parity writing.  So you could run the diagnostic that
> handles memory parity errors.  But that's a pretty uncommon thing to do and
> I wouldn't bother.
>
> I disagree, especially if you?re using an emulator for development.
> Caching is one of those things that can go
> horribly wrong and not having them emulated properly (or at all) can lead
> to bugs/behaviors that are significantly
> different from real HW.  The same goes for error reporting/handling.
> There are cases where errors may be expected
> and not having them can cause the SW to behave differently.
>
>
dps8m caught a lucky break here; neither the memory or page table caches
are needed for Multics to run correctly. (To some extent due to the
existence of cache disabling switches on the configuration panel.)

The diagnostics do extensive testing of the caches, and (unusually for the
project) they are well documented; the cache emulation code is a build-time
configuration option, and passes the diagnostics tests albeit with a
significant performance hit.

-- Charles

From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Feb 21 15:52:25 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 13:52:25 -0800
Subject: Writing emulators [Was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
In-Reply-To: <b84ef14b-405b-9177-737b-470ae3adc758@bitsavers.org>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180220192231.GK21580@Update.UU.SE>
 <aa966074-f0ef-bfd0-1192-ef4ab1113bbc@sydex.com>
 <5d6a974e-7703-867d-44cf-54780e4fce8a@bitsavers.org>
 <2c5d50a7-2b16-ccff-9b89-6dea858a9c05@sydex.com>
 <b84ef14b-405b-9177-737b-470ae3adc758@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <28713036-9a47-5ac6-be17-17184c574911@sydex.com>

On 02/21/2018 12:28 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> That actually just came up for discussion in a donation review meeting this week at
> CHM.
> 
> I don't know if they're that interesting w/o the software and documentation, and even
> then, these things were all locked down with licenses, except for the really early ones
> like Daisy and Valid.
> 
> On 2/21/18 11:37 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> Speaking of emulation, does anyone here collect old ZyCAD or Cadence
>> hardware emulation rigs?

Definitely lots of proprietary stuff.  I had a couple of friends who
worked for ZyCAD back in the day.  I got the impression that they were
only exposed to a piece of the puzzle.

Also, expensive as hell.

--Chuck

From ggs at shiresoft.com  Wed Feb 21 15:57:10 2018
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 13:57:10 -0800
Subject: Writing emulators (was Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!)
In-Reply-To: <39a943ccd22e4e1fa155d02c0e10be16@livingcomputers.org>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <bdd3fd62-b192-57c0-d28b-0564a6c85068@arachelian.com>
 <E0D78581-AD83-4E6B-8A58-30D60F9FEB2F@comcast.net>
 <14CE8A70-83C4-4542-AAD0-F0D90A46BD2E@shiresoft.com>
 <39a943ccd22e4e1fa155d02c0e10be16@livingcomputers.org>
Message-ID: <16032A7B-4B70-40C3-A348-C30B7C1DE899@shiresoft.com>



> On Feb 21, 2018, at 12:19 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> From: Guy Sotomayor Jr
> Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2018 11:24 AM
> 
>>> On Feb 21, 2018, at 10:59 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>>> wrote:
> 
>>> Typically you'd emulate the I/O device functionality, regardless of whether
>>> that is implemented in gates or in co-processor firmware.  That's the
>>> approach taken with the MSCP I/O device emulation in SIMH, or the disk
>>> controller emulation in the CDC 6000 emulator DtCyber.
> 
>> It?s also what?s done in Hercules (S/370, 370/XA, 390, Z simulator) and the
>> mainframe I/O is complex to say the least.
> 
> Also the method used by the KLH10 emulator (KS-10, KS-10/ITS microcode, KL-10).
> There, each device type runs in a separate fork, using System V style memory
> mapping.  This of course means that it only runs under certain Unix variants.

I haven?t looked at KLH10 in a long time, but Hercules runs on a lot of different platforms
including Windows (and I would not call that a Unix variant by any stretch of the imagination).

TTFN - Guy


From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com  Wed Feb 21 16:07:11 2018
From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 14:07:11 -0800
Subject: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!
In-Reply-To: <acf3a6a3-63c7-fc6b-8c6b-76aa1cdfd76d@hachti.de>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <acf3a6a3-63c7-fc6b-8c6b-76aa1cdfd76d@hachti.de>
Message-ID: <CANV78LSN3QkXCGsyFZzcGSWwvCErs8WxOjha6WedpYJD1_Z8WA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 4:28 AM, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> On 19.02.2018 02:52, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>
>> What do they have up there for Honeywell?
>>
>
> I was looking through the pics and saw - nothing... But I also would be
> VERY interested about if and what Honeywell stuff they have.
>
> A search through the LCM+L online catalog shows:

  Honeywell 58 minicomputer
  6180 maintenance panel
  Various tape and disk drives
  Xerox Sigma 9 w/Honeywell serial number stickers

http://opac.libraryworld.com/opac/advanced.php

Googling the '58':
  http://www.feb-patrimoine.com/histoire/english/chronoa6.htm
  "12 Sep 1971 First shipment of model 58, a derivative of GE-55"

Apparently a http://www.technikum29.de/en/computer/gamma55.

-- Charles

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Wed Feb 21 16:14:38 2018
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 17:14:38 -0500
Subject: SimH DECtape vs. Tops-10 [was RE: Writing emulators [Was: Re: VCF
 PNW 2018: Pictures!]]
In-Reply-To: <3fb939928e414f54ac79070102a9822b@livingcomputers.org>
References: <3fb939928e414f54ac79070102a9822b@livingcomputers.org>
Message-ID: <7CD61E89-24C2-4EEB-8B76-E6D428394DC5@comcast.net>



> On Feb 21, 2018, at 3:25 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> From: Paul Koning
> Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2018 6:41 AM
> 
>> And while there is roughly-accurate simulation of DECtape in SIMH (presumably
>> for TOPS-10 overlapped seek to work?)
> 
> It's not for Tops-10.  SimH only provides the KS-10 processor[1], so DECtape is
> not a possible peripheral.

Ok, then it could be for VMS, which also does this (via Andy's unsupported driver).  I don't know of PDP-11 or other minicomputer systems that do DECtape overlapped seek.  I suppose it could be for artistic verisimilitude...

	paul


From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Wed Feb 21 16:20:00 2018
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 15:20:00 -0700
Subject: Why don't you respect the mail threads?!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802211304060.11132@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <6e074442-ea74-6540-c771-d3d9b36bee2c@hachti.de>
 <49422a50-baff-5250-2752-fd70139669e0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAA3rs22W+GRovjA_BzT46bKATeDPwEwCWawmr5NFXej5DWSgWg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8fe889b0-3069-d3e1-81e7-187871abb945@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802211304060.11132@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <b10c7636-4f80-bb30-1890-48d4e9e1327a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 02/21/2018 02:05 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> Not likely to be related to Oumuamua

Well?.  Not exactly.

I could see how a loose connection could be made.

Mail User Agents are often used to reach out and make first contact with 
people.

I could see how a new MUA could justify using the name ?Omuamua. 
(Including the ?Okina.)



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed Feb 21 16:50:56 2018
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 17:50:56 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Why don't you respect the mail threads?!
Message-ID: <20180221225056.6786418C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Grant Taylor

    > I'm on a list where it seems as if a frequent contributer uses an MUA
    > that does not send In-Reply-To or References headers at all. It doesn't
    > even send a User-Agent header. *sigh*

That's me, I expect.

I used to use a TOPS-20 email reader called MM, and when I moved my email to a
Unix machine, there was a version of MM I used there, then something happened
(I forget what) and I couldn't use that any more.

I do have access to a more modern email reader (Eudora), but don't like it; I
just stick with old, simple stuff I know how to use. I don't have the spare
brain cells / energy to switch.

After going through I've-forgotten-how-many editors (starting with TECO, then
'ed'), text formatting systems, operating systems, email readers, etc, etc I
have a _very_ simple rule about switching software: is the old stuff I'm using
utterly, irretrievably unusable? If not, ignore the new stuff. Eventually
it'll be obsolete too. And in the meantime, I'll have saved countless cycles
by not going through the hassle of switching to it. Life's too short.

	Noel

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Wed Feb 21 17:00:01 2018
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 16:00:01 -0700
Subject: Why don't you respect the mail threads?!
In-Reply-To: <20180221225056.6786418C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20180221225056.6786418C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <4e8c5093-4176-dc6b-e2b3-85934137a97d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 02/21/2018 03:50 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
> That's me, I expect.

I'm not naming any names.

I have sent an email to the person directly with a polite inquiry.  I 
see no point in pointing fingers.

> I used to use a TOPS-20 email reader called MM, and when I moved my 
> email to a Unix machine, there was a version of MM I used there, then 
> something happened (I forget what) and I couldn't use that any more.

Intriguing.

I find it amazing the number of things that I can learn by reading TUHS 
and CCTalk.

Granted, I do miss some things when threads I'm ignoring fork without 
actually starting threads.  Oops!

> I do have access to a more modern email reader (Eudora), but don't like 
> it; I just stick with old, simple stuff I know how to use. I don't have 
> the spare brain cells / energy to switch.

I think that everybody should have the option to choose what ever 
software / hardware they want to use.  If you want to flip switches on 
the front of an Altair to ""type an email, after reading 5-bit punched 
paper tape, then by all means, more power to you.

Read:  I know how I would react if someone told me how I should do 
something, so far be it for me to try to tell someone else how they 
should do something.

That being said, I may inquire how / why someone is doing something, 
along with what prompted me to ask the question.  -  My intention is to 
(hopefully) alleviate my ignorance of a situation and to make the other 
party aware of something.  -  What said other party does with said 
information is /their/ prerogative.

> After going through I've-forgotten-how-many editors (starting with TECO, 
> then 'ed'), text formatting systems, operating systems, email readers, 
> etc, etc I have a very simple rule about switching software: is the old 
> stuff I'm using utterly, irretrievably unusable? If not, ignore the new 
> stuff. Eventually it'll be obsolete too. And in the meantime, I'll have 
> saved countless cycles by not going through the hassle of switching to 
> it. Life's too short.

I see the logic in what you're saying.

If it works for you?.  Far be it for me?.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed Feb 21 18:54:01 2018
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 19:54:01 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Seeking RL02K cartridge
Message-ID: <20180222005401.DBC1318C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Aaron Jackson

    > I am wondering if anyone would be willing to sell me an RL02K cartridge
    > for a sensible price?

There are a bunch listed on eBait for not wholly unrealistic prices; I
wouldn't buy a bunch there, but it you only need one, for testing... Not sure
if any of the ones for sale there are the moment are in the UK, though. (I
recall some a few months ago, so it's not impossible, and worth a check.)

	Noel

From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk  Wed Feb 21 19:21:18 2018
From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 01:21:18 +0000
Subject: Seeking RL02K cartridge
In-Reply-To: <20180222005401.DBC1318C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20180222005401.DBC1318C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <87bmghrf8x.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk>

>     > I am wondering if anyone would be willing to sell me an RL02K cartridge
>     > for a sensible price?
>
> There are a bunch listed on eBait for not wholly unrealistic prices; I
> wouldn't buy a bunch there, but it you only need one, for testing... Not sure
> if any of the ones for sale there are the moment are in the UK, though. (I
> recall some a few months ago, so it's not impossible, and worth a check.)
>
> 	Noel

Hi Noel,

I ended up ordering an RL02K-DC today from Lightning Systems in the
UK. I've bought stuff from them before, not overly expensive, but not
overly cheap either. At least I know that it has been tested and works.

I just *really* hope nothing goes wrong when I load it. If it does, I
will give up on RL02 completely. I don't want to be responsible for
crashing another pack, so this will be my last attempt. Given that I am
able to load a clean pack without any bad noises, just not able to read
it because of lost servo data on the first track, I think it might be
okay. I hope...

Thanks,
Aaron.

From chrise at pobox.com  Wed Feb 21 20:14:56 2018
From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 20:14:56 -0600
Subject: Writing emulators [Was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
In-Reply-To: <28713036-9a47-5ac6-be17-17184c574911@sydex.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180220192231.GK21580@Update.UU.SE>
 <aa966074-f0ef-bfd0-1192-ef4ab1113bbc@sydex.com>
 <5d6a974e-7703-867d-44cf-54780e4fce8a@bitsavers.org>
 <2c5d50a7-2b16-ccff-9b89-6dea858a9c05@sydex.com>
 <b84ef14b-405b-9177-737b-470ae3adc758@bitsavers.org>
 <28713036-9a47-5ac6-be17-17184c574911@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <A6B3F47B-4ED1-452C-9924-A6EFEEE69651@pobox.com>


> On Feb 21, 2018, at 3:52 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
>> On 02/21/2018 12:28 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
>> That actually just came up for discussion in a donation review meeting this week at
>> CHM.
>> 
>> I don't know if they're that interesting w/o the software and documentation, and even
>> then, these things were all locked down with licenses, except for the really early ones
>> like Daisy and Valid.
>> 
>>> On 2/21/18 11:37 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>>> 
>>> Speaking of emulation, does anyone here collect old ZyCAD or Cadence
>>> hardware emulation rigs?
> 
> Definitely lots of proprietary stuff.  I had a couple of friends who
> worked for ZyCAD back in the day.  I got the impression that they were
> only exposed to a piece of the puzzle.
> 
> Also, expensive as hell.
> 
> --Chuck

We had a lot of ZyCAD stuff at ETA because we just had to drive a couple miles up the road to get it ;-)  Lots of the ETA brass were buddies with the ZyCAD brass because they all came from ADL.

We used it to simulate the ALSI 20K gate arrays before they were built.  The gear we had was usually plugged into some Apollo headless nodes, which I think were Multibus backplanes?? and then accessed over the Domain network.

Chris

From lars at nocrew.org  Wed Feb 21 23:37:04 2018
From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 05:37:04 +0000
Subject: SimH DECtape vs. Tops-10 [was RE: Writing emulators [Was: Re: VCF
 PNW 2018: Pictures!]]
In-Reply-To: <3fb939928e414f54ac79070102a9822b@livingcomputers.org> (Rich
 Alderson via cctalk's message of "Wed, 21 Feb 2018 20:25:21 +0000")
References: <3fb939928e414f54ac79070102a9822b@livingcomputers.org>
Message-ID: <7wd10xfuv3.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

Rich Alderson wrote:
> It's not for Tops-10.  SimH only provides the KS-10 processor[1], so
> DECtape is not a possible peripheral.
> [1] Although there is a KA-10 in the works.

Also KI-10 in its current state.  Maybe PDP-6 in the future.

From cmhanson at eschatologist.net  Thu Feb 22 02:09:27 2018
From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 00:09:27 -0800
Subject: Writing emulators [Was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
In-Reply-To: <605d363f-7015-fcfc-086a-0742ff159664@bitsavers.org>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180220192231.GK21580@Update.UU.SE>
 <MWHPR14MB1600FE44A101F4A5C55B2409A3CF0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <CADyB93BZKgw7bv58gd45DKMxiA-5x6bf=sYFYExT1psmU1LcQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180221011809.GB27949@brevard.conman.org>
 <3B4D9DEB-48EC-40A1-A647-E46C4A4EEE54@comcast.net>
 <605d363f-7015-fcfc-086a-0742ff159664@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <225C7DB0-CBA1-41CE-821E-65E9E96CDA8D@eschatologist.net>

On Feb 21, 2018, at 11:09 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> That is tricky to cleanly and efficiently implement where each component is modeled independently and
> glued together with a higher-level framework.

This is why I wonder if multithreaded emulation might be a reasonable future approach: Model more components of a system as operating independently as they produce and react to signals, have them block when not reacting (either to a clock pulse or a signal), and let the operating system manage scheduling.

  -- Chris


From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie  Thu Feb 22 04:54:40 2018
From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 10:54:40 +0000 (WET)
Subject: Writing emulators (was Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!)
In-Reply-To: <16032A7B-4B70-40C3-A348-C30B7C1DE899@shiresoft.com>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <bdd3fd62-b192-57c0-d28b-0564a6c85068@arachelian.com>
 <E0D78581-AD83-4E6B-8A58-30D60F9FEB2F@comcast.net>
 <14CE8A70-83C4-4542-AAD0-F0D90A46BD2E@shiresoft.com>
 <39a943ccd22e4e1fa155d02c0e10be16@livingcomputers.org>
Message-ID: <01QPCL8PE6GQ004AM0@beyondthepale.ie>

Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote:
>
>> On Feb 21, 2018, at 12:19 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> 
>> From: Guy Sotomayor Jr
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2018 11:24 AM
>> 
>>>> On Feb 21, 2018, at 10:59 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>>>> wrote:
>> 
>>>> Typically you'd emulate the I/O device functionality, regardless of whether
>>>> that is implemented in gates or in co-processor firmware.  That's the
>>>> approach taken with the MSCP I/O device emulation in SIMH, or the disk
>>>> controller emulation in the CDC 6000 emulator DtCyber.
>> 
>>> It?s also what?s done in Hercules (S/370, 370/XA, 390, Z simulator) and the
>>> mainframe I/O is complex to say the least.
>> 
>> Also the method used by the KLH10 emulator (KS-10, KS-10/ITS microcode, KL-10).
>> There, each device type runs in a separate fork, using System V style memory
>> mapping.  This of course means that it only runs under certain Unix variants.
>
> I haven?t looked at KLH10 in a long time, but Hercules runs on a lot of different platforms
> including Windows (and I would not call that a Unix variant by any stretch of the imagination).
>

Hercules uses posix threads, not forks, however, each device does not necessarily
get it's own thread.  It's pretty portable stuff though.  With very few tweaks,
I run it on VMS.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

>
> TTFN - Guy
> 

From hachti at hachti.de  Thu Feb 22 06:58:44 2018
From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 13:58:44 +0100
Subject: Honeywell DDP-516 console on Ebay - PLEASE don't bid!
Message-ID: <f8c479b3-6f47-fca8-1438-ec6761e76f0a@hachti.de>

Hi folks,

I recently discovered a complete Honeywell DDP-516 console on Ebay. It 
is a charity auction, ending tomorrow.

I am the high bidder (hachti, 600-some points) and BEG YOU ALL NOT TO 
BID on it!
I already entered a crazy high bid anyway bid so please don't bid on it.

I am one of the very very very few people who have an actual DDP-516 
machine and can really use this as a spare for a real machine.

Again, PLEASE refrain from bidding up this item!

If you are the owner of a "headless" machine who is in need for the 
front panel: please contact me, so we can avoid an explosion on Ebay.

Thank you very much.

Kind regards

Philipp

From mattislind at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 07:07:14 2018
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 14:07:14 +0100
Subject: What are these memory modules?
Message-ID: <CABr82SLgN_X-ddpUq+mD62BxqSQTvy7HTYyXsVBuOv75DEMYhw@mail.gmail.com>

Can anyone tell me which system these belongs to?

https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/28058349_10155950589854985_8635795214284744688_n.jpg?oh=c0be0a30ee09cd98cb69ed728375520b&oe=5B02220D

/Mattis

From u.tagge at gmx.de  Thu Feb 22 06:45:46 2018
From: u.tagge at gmx.de (Ulrich Tagge)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 13:45:46 +0100
Subject: Maxtor full-height 5.25" drives of death
In-Reply-To: <5A7DE2EF.60904@cimmeri.com>
References: <5A7DE2EF.60904@cimmeri.com>
Message-ID: <24bff003-9bd5-dc6c-3b6d-1efaf594ee87@gmx.de>

/Here is my list. 6x RD54 (Maxtor XT2190) >2x OK, 2x Media Error, 1x 
Actuator Issue, 1x Head issue 3x RD53 (Micropolis 1325) >2x Actuator 
issue, 1x actuator issue followed by spinning issue (speed sensor?) 4x 
Seagate ST251 >4x OK 3x Seagete ST225 >3x OK 3x IBM Type 068 >3x Dead On 
the 3.5" side I have also many dead drives (<1GB capacity). Mostly 
sticky actuators and dead tantalum caps, but by now nothing I was not 
able to repair. Many Greetings Ulrich /
>>
>>A tangential question out of curiosity: 
>>who here has 5.25" MFM drives they're 
>>extremely surprised are still working, 
>>and which model(s)?
>>...
>>
>>- John


From rich.cini at verizon.net  Thu Feb 22 07:23:33 2018
From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 13:23:33 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Maxtor full-height 5.25" drives of death
In-Reply-To: <24bff003-9bd5-dc6c-3b6d-1efaf594ee87@gmx.de>
References: <5A7DE2EF.60904@cimmeri.com>
 <24bff003-9bd5-dc6c-3b6d-1efaf594ee87@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <77EC60A70A0CE76E.97BC8D2D-1B03-474C-B0C7-131A6C9B3EB7@mail.outlook.com>




	
		
		
	
		I have a Quantum Q540 (36mb; labeled RD-52) that works perfectly. I love the sound of the spin-up on those drives. 


		
		

		Get Outlook for iOS
	




On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 8:17 AM -0500, "Ulrich Tagge via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:










/Here is my list. 6x RD54 (Maxtor XT2190) >2x OK, 2x Media Error, 1x 
Actuator Issue, 1x Head issue 3x RD53 (Micropolis 1325) >2x Actuator 
issue, 1x actuator issue followed by spinning issue (speed sensor?) 4x 
Seagate ST251 >4x OK 3x Seagete ST225 >3x OK 3x IBM Type 068 >3x Dead On 
the 3.5" side I have also many dead drives (<1GB capacity). Mostly 
sticky actuators and dead tantalum caps, but by now nothing I was not 
able to repair. Many Greetings Ulrich /
>>
>>A tangential question out of curiosity: 
>>who here has 5.25" MFM drives they're 
>>extremely surprised are still working, 
>>and which model(s)?
>>...
>>
>>- John







From lproven at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 08:35:14 2018
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 15:35:14 +0100
Subject: Why don't you respect the mail threads?!
In-Reply-To: <20180221225056.6786418C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20180221225056.6786418C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFA4xQ6aHDG0gmsNJaPCyeT6L7-SOa8GMjivAa+4_T2Xg@mail.gmail.com>

On 21 February 2018 at 23:50, Noel Chiappa via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> After going through I've-forgotten-how-many editors (starting with TECO, then
> 'ed'), text formatting systems, operating systems, email readers, etc, etc I
> have a _very_ simple rule about switching software: is the old stuff I'm using
> utterly, irretrievably unusable? If not, ignore the new stuff. Eventually
> it'll be obsolete too. And in the meantime, I'll have saved countless cycles
> by not going through the hassle of switching to it. Life's too short.

Interesting.

I have had a comparable journey, starting in the early 1980s on home
micros. I have learned so many different editors, with all their
strengths and weaknesses, I can't remember how many to the nearest
dozen.

But at the end of the 1980s/start of the 1990s, something  changed.

CUA came along. IBM's answer to Apple's MacOS HIG.

A set of rules for how apps should look.

Quickly, lots complied. DR-DOS 5 came with a slightly clunky but CUA
full-screen text-editor.

MS-DOS 5 followed. From the horrors of edlin, we got the DOS 5 editor,
basically QBASIC in a special mode. But QBASIC was the QuickBASIC 4
IDE with an interpreter bolted in place of the compiler, and it was a
decent IDE and a decent editor.

DR-DOS 6 upped its game a bit.

Windows Notepad is basically the same and compatible. So were the
later classic MacOS editors. So are the editors in KDE, GNOME 2, Mat?,
LXDE, Xfce, whatever. So are all the Mac OS X ones.

There's one look and feel for a text editor now. Menu bar at the top,
starting File, Edit, blah. Save is Ctrl+S. Open is Ctrl-O.
Cut/copy/paste -- well there the CUA ones gave in to Mac ones: Ctrl-X,
C, V.

I won't use any editor or editing app that doesn't follow that
pattern. I've happily, joyfully, with a song in my heart, forgotten
all the others.

I don't care _how_ powerful anyone's editor is. Scripting, macros,
add-ons, modules, whatever. Not interested. Strictly CUA or GTFO.

It has made life much simpler.

And in the great Vi-versus-Emacs war, it leaves both sides staring
blankly at me with nothing to offer.

Both weakly point out that their X version does most of that, but
neither does it on the console, so I'm not interested.

It rules out most of the console/shell level Unix/Linux/*nix world and
that's fine with me. Saves me a ton of decision-making.

Your app. Don't care what it does. Is it CUA compliant? No? OK, thank
you for your time, goodbye. *Ting* Next please.




-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 09:18:56 2018
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 10:18:56 -0500
Subject: Honeywell DDP-516 console on Ebay - PLEASE don't bid!
In-Reply-To: <f8c479b3-6f47-fca8-1438-ec6761e76f0a@hachti.de>
References: <f8c479b3-6f47-fca8-1438-ec6761e76f0a@hachti.de>
Message-ID: <CABGJBufLmkk_kpUG5GkObXEhTW60CAbKAgq2XftV-irVGf4F8g@mail.gmail.com>

I have been watching this too, yes.  Fortunately I already have a
practically identical console (link below).   All I have so far is the
console and a core module.   I am looking for the rest of the computer if
anyone has one...

http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=655

Bill

On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 7:58 AM, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> I recently discovered a complete Honeywell DDP-516 console on Ebay. It is
> a charity auction, ending tomorrow.
>
> I am the high bidder (hachti, 600-some points) and BEG YOU ALL NOT TO BID
> on it!
> I already entered a crazy high bid anyway bid so please don't bid on it.
>
> I am one of the very very very few people who have an actual DDP-516
> machine and can really use this as a spare for a real machine.
>
> Again, PLEASE refrain from bidding up this item!
>
> If you are the owner of a "headless" machine who is in need for the front
> panel: please contact me, so we can avoid an explosion on Ebay.
>
> Thank you very much.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Philipp
>

From hachti at hachti.de  Thu Feb 22 10:00:49 2018
From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 17:00:49 +0100
Subject: Honeywell DDP-516 console on Ebay - PLEASE don't bid!
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBufLmkk_kpUG5GkObXEhTW60CAbKAgq2XftV-irVGf4F8g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f8c479b3-6f47-fca8-1438-ec6761e76f0a@hachti.de>
 <CABGJBufLmkk_kpUG5GkObXEhTW60CAbKAgq2XftV-irVGf4F8g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <33d681a1-91c6-cedf-6100-484d3f0f4324@hachti.de>


On 22.02.2018 16:18, Bill Degnan wrote:
>  All I have so far is the
> console and a core module.? ?I am looking for the rest of the computer 
> if anyone has one...
Ah, good to know that there is a spare core stack around :-P

> http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=655
I remember - having already commented on it...

The front panel is quite dump. Everything is handled in the CPU and the PSU.

BTW you know that the schematics of the DDP-516 can be found on bitsavers?

Kind regards

Philipp


From billdegnan at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 10:26:50 2018
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 11:26:50 -0500
Subject: Honeywell DDP-516 console on Ebay - PLEASE don't bid!
In-Reply-To: <33d681a1-91c6-cedf-6100-484d3f0f4324@hachti.de>
References: <f8c479b3-6f47-fca8-1438-ec6761e76f0a@hachti.de>
 <CABGJBufLmkk_kpUG5GkObXEhTW60CAbKAgq2XftV-irVGf4F8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <33d681a1-91c6-cedf-6100-484d3f0f4324@hachti.de>
Message-ID: <CABGJBueW_r5ghemznDj6JtCqzFaV1EntX4eg1AFuWG2Mp029QQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 11:00 AM, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> On 22.02.2018 16:18, Bill Degnan wrote:
>
>>  All I have so far is the
>> console and a core module.   I am looking for the rest of the computer if
>> anyone has one...
>>
> Ah, good to know that there is a spare core stack around :-P
>
> http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=655
>>
> I remember - having already commented on it...
>
> The front panel is quite dump. Everything is handled in the CPU and the
> PSU.
>
> BTW you know that the schematics of the DDP-516 can be found on bitsavers?
>
> Kind regards
>
> Philipp
>
>
Yes, just commenting to the group..for now I can simH Honeywell.  I would
love to get the front panel running with a simH, using the schematics to
determine what lights should flash..
Bill

From ggs at shiresoft.com  Thu Feb 22 11:17:03 2018
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 09:17:03 -0800
Subject: Writing emulators [Was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
In-Reply-To: <225C7DB0-CBA1-41CE-821E-65E9E96CDA8D@eschatologist.net>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180220192231.GK21580@Update.UU.SE>
 <MWHPR14MB1600FE44A101F4A5C55B2409A3CF0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <CADyB93BZKgw7bv58gd45DKMxiA-5x6bf=sYFYExT1psmU1LcQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180221011809.GB27949@brevard.conman.org>
 <3B4D9DEB-48EC-40A1-A647-E46C4A4EEE54@comcast.net>
 <605d363f-7015-fcfc-086a-0742ff159664@bitsavers.org>
 <225C7DB0-CBA1-41CE-821E-65E9E96CDA8D@eschatologist.net>
Message-ID: <D09B7278-5A5A-448A-AD47-48B004D53E0A@shiresoft.com>



> On Feb 22, 2018, at 12:09 AM, Chris Hanson via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On Feb 21, 2018, at 11:09 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> 
>> That is tricky to cleanly and efficiently implement where each component is modeled independently and
>> glued together with a higher-level framework.
> 
> This is why I wonder if multithreaded emulation might be a reasonable future approach: Model more components of a system as operating independently as they produce and react to signals, have them block when not reacting (either to a clock pulse or a signal), and let the operating system manage scheduling.

This is what some emulators already do: KLH10 (although it does it at the process level with SYS V shared memory) and Hercules.  So there are already existence proofs (and those are just two that are publicly available?many others are not publicly available?e.g. under a paid license).

TTFN - Guy


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Thu Feb 22 11:34:42 2018
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 12:34:42 -0500
Subject: Writing emulators [Was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]
In-Reply-To: <225C7DB0-CBA1-41CE-821E-65E9E96CDA8D@eschatologist.net>
References: <CA+bZ4SDhk876Uk82eoqbXEycgdQmOvP-dkYUHdMwYxGnSONJAQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180218232918.GA33741@indra.papnet.eu>
 <46F7ACB9-BD9F-4C32-AA92-59B329F06733@avanthar.com>
 <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802190642390.7517@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <CANV78LSWuc7DW104TsS95SJJ=PPt2OkNzcEJQew3S5dyiudSXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs22-NgD+P+4VJEzpBrDT0gzedXy-cDqUnv=e4=m3sFD9_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180220192231.GK21580@Update.UU.SE>
 <MWHPR14MB1600FE44A101F4A5C55B2409A3CF0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <CADyB93BZKgw7bv58gd45DKMxiA-5x6bf=sYFYExT1psmU1LcQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180221011809.GB27949@brevard.conman.org>
 <3B4D9DEB-48EC-40A1-A647-E46C4A4EEE54@comcast.net>
 <605d363f-7015-fcfc-086a-0742ff159664@bitsavers.org>
 <225C7DB0-CBA1-41CE-821E-65E9E96CDA8D@eschatologist.net>
Message-ID: <550051A1-3F84-4665-8C94-482CCA32098F@comcast.net>



> On Feb 22, 2018, at 3:09 AM, Chris Hanson via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On Feb 21, 2018, at 11:09 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> 
>> That is tricky to cleanly and efficiently implement where each component is modeled independently and
>> glued together with a higher-level framework.
> 
> This is why I wonder if multithreaded emulation might be a reasonable future approach: Model more components of a system as operating independently as they produce and react to signals, have them block when not reacting (either to a clock pulse or a signal), and let the operating system manage scheduling.

It depends on the machine being emulated.  In some cases, multiple components that seem to be independent actually have tightly coupled timing, and software relies on that.

For example, a CDC 6000 series mainframe has 10 or 20 PPUs plus one or two CPUs.  With a bit of care, you can model the two CPUs using two threads.  But all the PPUs have to be done in one thread because they run in lockstep.  If you make them each a thread, the OS won't boot.  I tried it and gave up.  It would have been nice, it might have opened a path to a power-efficient emulation, but it didn't appear doable.

Processors vs. I/O devices might work, but again the devil is in the details.

	paul



From pete at petelancashire.com  Thu Feb 22 11:56:38 2018
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 09:56:38 -0800
Subject: Will be up for sale in this calendar year 360 Front Panel
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u-Tayc0aEvXvRqVdcQm-r2v9+y-xWm6jOM6wOZrTSAWAg@mail.gmail.com>

I thought I would post a heads for

https://photos.app.goo.gl/36CxlZQJDssj5uLh1

I have the IBM 360 aluminum plate that goes on top, it is scratched. More
detailed and better pictures as I dig deeper.

For shipping a I will have professional box built by a friend who's hobby
is building
and restoring furniture.

Price to be determined and will go into my estate.

If interested please email me directly

pete at petelancashire dot com

Regards

-pete

From couryhouse at aol.com  Thu Feb 22 13:38:57 2018
From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 14:38:57 -0500
Subject: Honeywell DDP-516 console on Ebay - PLEASE don't bid!
In-Reply-To: <33d681a1-91c6-cedf-6100-484d3f0f4324@hachti.de>
References: <33d681a1-91c6-cedf-6100-484d3f0f4324@hachti.de>
Message-ID: <161bf069f5a-669-583a@webjas-vaa198.srv.aolmail.net>

some panel  hoader could drive this thru the roof....  I ran into someine this year with no interest really in the computers but like the panels for art....  with deep pockets. which makes them even scarier.....ed#  www.smecc.org

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail

On Thursday, February 22, 2018 Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

On 22.02.2018 16:18, Bill Degnan wrote:
> All I have so far is the
> console and a core module.? ?I am looking for the rest of the computer 
> if anyone has one...
Ah, good to know that there is a spare core stack around :-P

> http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=655
I remember - having already commented on it...

The front panel is quite dump. Everything is handled in the CPU and the PSU.

BTW you know that the schematics of the DDP-516 can be found on bitsavers?

Kind regards

Philipp


From billdegnan at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 13:51:35 2018
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 14:51:35 -0500
Subject: Honeywell DDP-516 console on Ebay - PLEASE don't bid!
In-Reply-To: <161bf069f5a-669-583a@webjas-vaa198.srv.aolmail.net>
References: <33d681a1-91c6-cedf-6100-484d3f0f4324@hachti.de>
 <161bf069f5a-669-583a@webjas-vaa198.srv.aolmail.net>
Message-ID: <CABGJBucpyhHeox-ZHSpPrg5jwxTrN8seRt3U8FRACpGC-A9ESg@mail.gmail.com>

> On Thursday, February 22, 2018 Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> On 22.02.2018 16:18, Bill Degnan wrote:
> > All I have so far is the
> > console and a core module.   I am looking for the rest of the computer
> > if anyone has one...
> Ah, good to know that there is a spare core stack around :-P
>
> > http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=655
> I remember - having already commented on it...
>
> The front panel is quite dump. Everything is handled in the CPU and the
> PSU.
>
> BTW you know that the schematics of the DDP-516 can be found on bitsavers?
>
> Kind regards
>
> Philipp
>
>
On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 2:38 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org
> wrote:

> some panel  hoader could drive this thru the roof....  I ran into someine
> this year with no interest really in the computers but like the panels for
> art....  with deep pockets. which makes them even scarier.....ed#
> www.smecc.org
>
> Sent from AOL Mobile Mail



I can accept someone keeping the front panel and dumping the computer more
so than when on strips a  keyboard from the terminal.  Two reasons - One
because with the front panel one can build something underneath to replace
the original computer.  Second - The computer may simply be too big to keep
around

But I am sure there is a Fridays restaurant somewhere in the USA with a
UNIVAC front panel or something sad like that on the wall.

Bill

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Thu Feb 22 14:08:07 2018
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 12:08:07 -0800
Subject: WTB Intel 7110 Bubble Memory Subsystem or Chipset
Message-ID: <B4DA7BFF-170C-46AB-850A-2F1365C1F378@nf6x.net>

I'm about to acquire a couple of 1980s-vintage military surplus AN/UGC-137A terminals (i.e., glass TTYs with some local message preparation and storage capabilities) which have a bubble memory subsystem. They use plug-in cartridges containing 256 kbytes of storage in the form of two Intel 7110 1 Mbit bubble memory chips and their 7242 formatter/sense amplifiers.

One of the cartridges contains the one and only copy of the terminals' firmware, which I believe they need to load up at each reboot. Naturally, extracting the contents of that irreplaceable cartridge for archival, and potential future emulation, is going to be a very high priority for me. I have a few different approaches in mind for accomplishing that. One approach would be to remove the two memory devices from the critical cartridge in order to dump their contents in an independent bubble memory subsystem.

With that in mind, I'd like to get my hands on a working Intel 7110 bubble memory subsystem, or the parts to build one myself (i.e., a complete 7110/7220/7230/7242/7250/7254 chipset that I could make a board around).

Might anybody here have what I need available for sale or trade? I might be able to use some arbitrary old computer or other device that has a subsystem based around the Intel 7110, or a development kit such as the Intel BPK-72, or a chipset to make my own board.

If I can't acquire or make the hardware to dump the memory chips outside of their native system, then I think my next option would be to passively snoop the host bus interface of the Intel 7220 controller I expect to find inside the terminals as they perform their initial firmware load, so that I can reconstruct the cartridge contents from the trace data.

The terminals were made by the Librascope division of Singer, and brochures can be found here:

http://www.librascopememories.com/Librascope_Memories/Product_Literature_files/Communications%20Terminal.pdf

http://www.librascopememories.com/Librascope_Memories/Product_Literature_files/SST.pdf

http://www.librascopememories.com/Librascope_Memories/Product_Literature_files/Bubble%20Memory%20Cartridge.pdf

I already have the critical cartridge in hand, and I posted some pictures of it on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/964578291767173120




-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From rtomek at ceti.pl  Thu Feb 22 14:26:55 2018
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 21:26:55 +0100
Subject: Why don't you respect the mail threads?!
In-Reply-To: <20180221225056.6786418C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20180221225056.6786418C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20180222202655.GA31642@tau1.ceti.pl>

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 05:50:56PM -0500, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
>     > From: Grant Taylor
> 
>     > I'm on a list where it seems as if a frequent contributer uses an MUA
>     > that does not send In-Reply-To or References headers at all. It doesn't
>     > even send a User-Agent header. *sigh*
> 
> That's me, I expect.
> 
> I used to use a TOPS-20 email reader called MM, and when I moved my
[...]
> 
> I do have access to a more modern email reader (Eudora), but don't
[...]
> 
> After going through I've-forgotten-how-many editors (starting with
> TECO, then 'ed'), text formatting systems, operating systems, email
> readers, etc, etc I have a _very_ simple rule about switching
> software: is the old stuff I'm using utterly, irretrievably
> unusable? If not, ignore the new stuff. Eventually it'll be obsolete
> too. And in the meantime, I'll have saved countless cycles by not
> going through the hassle of switching to it. Life's too short.

Noel, I respect your attitude, even replicate it a bit, but
nevertheless I shyly suggest that you try mutt for email (especially
if you process your emails via terminal). It is quite versatile (as
far as I can tell, and I am of course quite subjective) and works on
variety of terminals - I have configured it to work in 256 colors
(because I fancy colors) but it also works on vt100 (i.e. in
monochrome, or rather, it works on terminal emulator with TERM=vt100,
and some keys work differently in this mode then in 256-color
mode). There are some key shortcuts that have to be learned, but not
so many. Configuration is done by editing a file, which means I can
put in snippets from the web to try. If you have your preferred editor
and it works on term, then it probably can be used by mutt (emacs
works for me).

Before that, I have been using pine (nowadays named alpine), which had
configuration edited via builtin options editor and before that, elm,
never configured by me (AFAIR - about 20yago). So, with this
perspective, I can say mutt is not bad and I intend sticking to it for
a while.

Last but not least, it looks like mutt adheres to the standards and at
least does the right thing with headers.

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **

From pete at petelancashire.com  Thu Feb 22 14:29:47 2018
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 12:29:47 -0800
Subject: WTB Intel 7110 Bubble Memory Subsystem or Chipset
In-Reply-To: <B4DA7BFF-170C-46AB-850A-2F1365C1F378@nf6x.net>
References: <B4DA7BFF-170C-46AB-850A-2F1365C1F378@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u849WyF7WnFuA-nTbRVxmmQFWJg25GveuxY-pvb5iJgng@mail.gmail.com>

Doing a paper napkin design, should be pretty easy to build a bubble
emulator in the same size

On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 12:08 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I'm about to acquire a couple of 1980s-vintage military surplus
> AN/UGC-137A terminals (i.e., glass TTYs with some local message preparation
> and storage capabilities) which have a bubble memory subsystem. They use
> plug-in cartridges containing 256 kbytes of storage in the form of two
> Intel 7110 1 Mbit bubble memory chips and their 7242 formatter/sense
> amplifiers.
>
> One of the cartridges contains the one and only copy of the terminals'
> firmware, which I believe they need to load up at each reboot. Naturally,
> extracting the contents of that irreplaceable cartridge for archival, and
> potential future emulation, is going to be a very high priority for me. I
> have a few different approaches in mind for accomplishing that. One
> approach would be to remove the two memory devices from the critical
> cartridge in order to dump their contents in an independent bubble memory
> subsystem.
>
> With that in mind, I'd like to get my hands on a working Intel 7110 bubble
> memory subsystem, or the parts to build one myself (i.e., a complete
> 7110/7220/7230/7242/7250/7254 chipset that I could make a board around).
>
> Might anybody here have what I need available for sale or trade? I might
> be able to use some arbitrary old computer or other device that has a
> subsystem based around the Intel 7110, or a development kit such as the
> Intel BPK-72, or a chipset to make my own board.
>
> If I can't acquire or make the hardware to dump the memory chips outside
> of their native system, then I think my next option would be to passively
> snoop the host bus interface of the Intel 7220 controller I expect to find
> inside the terminals as they perform their initial firmware load, so that I
> can reconstruct the cartridge contents from the trace data.
>
> The terminals were made by the Librascope division of Singer, and
> brochures can be found here:
>
> http://www.librascopememories.com/Librascope_Memories/
> Product_Literature_files/Communications%20Terminal.pdf
>
> http://www.librascopememories.com/Librascope_Memories/
> Product_Literature_files/SST.pdf
>
> http://www.librascopememories.com/Librascope_Memories/
> Product_Literature_files/Bubble%20Memory%20Cartridge.pdf
>
> I already have the critical cartridge in hand, and I posted some pictures
> of it on Twitter:
>
> https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/964578291767173120
>
>
>
>
> --
> Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
> http://www.nf6x.net/
>
>
>

From geneb at deltasoft.com  Thu Feb 22 14:38:56 2018
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 12:38:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Alpine vs mutt?
Message-ID: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802221237380.10671@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>

> Before that, I have been using pine (nowadays named alpine), which had
> configuration edited via builtin options editor and before that, elm,
> never configured by me (AFAIR - about 20yago). So, with this
> perspective, I can say mutt is not bad and I intend sticking to it for
> a while.

What about mutt do you prefer over alpine?

g.



-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

From rtomek at ceti.pl  Thu Feb 22 14:57:40 2018
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 21:57:40 +0100
Subject: Why don't you respect the mail threads?!
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFA4xQ6aHDG0gmsNJaPCyeT6L7-SOa8GMjivAa+4_T2Xg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20180221225056.6786418C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAMTenCFA4xQ6aHDG0gmsNJaPCyeT6L7-SOa8GMjivAa+4_T2Xg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20180222205740.GB31642@tau1.ceti.pl>

On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 03:35:14PM +0100, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
[...]
> 
> I don't care _how_ powerful anyone's editor is. Scripting, macros,
> add-ons, modules, whatever. Not interested. Strictly CUA or GTFO.

Liam, I wanted to say this few months ago already (back in Nov, the
"Editor" thread - BTW, thanks for the links to editors wiki and other
interesting pointers). So, what I wanted to say is, this posture is
going to backfire, I am afraid. The new crowd is coming, who newer had
any chance to use anything resembling a terminal (including
terminal-like experience as wobbly as given by MS Windows). They
(crowd) too will be saying things like GTFO - for now, they just top
post awfully long replies (perhaps because their phone/web-based MUAs
cannot offer them easy way to cut the crap?) and refuse to see any
wrong in it. They also happen to break threads like they were paid to
do it and since I am subscribed to way too many lists where this
occurs, I have already gave up manual linking of threads with mutt -
righting wrongs of the crowd is a job for a program, not for single
human. I only have to devise it during free time, when I have some.

Given that they are soon (if not already) going to be a "dictatoring"
majority, I am not so sure the "GTFO" is the right kind of message to
send out. Even though I have no idea what a constructive message could
look like.

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Thu Feb 22 15:23:21 2018
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 13:23:21 -0800
Subject: WTB Intel 7110 Bubble Memory Subsystem or Chipset
In-Reply-To: <CAA-F0u849WyF7WnFuA-nTbRVxmmQFWJg25GveuxY-pvb5iJgng@mail.gmail.com>
References: <B4DA7BFF-170C-46AB-850A-2F1365C1F378@nf6x.net>
 <CAA-F0u849WyF7WnFuA-nTbRVxmmQFWJg25GveuxY-pvb5iJgng@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9168C93C-FC3E-4D63-8762-FD765E3AC03D@nf6x.net>


> On Feb 22, 2018, at 12:29 PM, Pete Lancashire <pete at petelancashire.com> wrote:
> 
> Doing a paper napkin design, should be pretty easy to build a bubble emulator in the same size

Yes, and I plan to do just that (assuming I ever actually get around to it)! But the first priority will be archiving the firmware that's on that cartridge (or not... it would really stink if the bits have already evaporated!).


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 22 15:23:34 2018
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 21:23:34 +0000
Subject: WTB Intel 7110 Bubble Memory Subsystem or Chipset
In-Reply-To: <CAA-F0u849WyF7WnFuA-nTbRVxmmQFWJg25GveuxY-pvb5iJgng@mail.gmail.com>
References: <B4DA7BFF-170C-46AB-850A-2F1365C1F378@nf6x.net>,
 <CAA-F0u849WyF7WnFuA-nTbRVxmmQFWJg25GveuxY-pvb5iJgng@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR14MB1600645D416279B3619E31A8A3CD0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>

Do not remove the chip from the bias magnets. All will be lost if you do.

The Nicolet 3091 used a bubble memory but I don't know it it was the Intel or other manufacture.

Dwight


________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Pete Lancashire via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2018 12:29:47 PM
To: Mark J. Blair; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: WTB Intel 7110 Bubble Memory Subsystem or Chipset

Doing a paper napkin design, should be pretty easy to build a bubble
emulator in the same size

On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 12:08 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I'm about to acquire a couple of 1980s-vintage military surplus
> AN/UGC-137A terminals (i.e., glass TTYs with some local message preparation
> and storage capabilities) which have a bubble memory subsystem. They use
> plug-in cartridges containing 256 kbytes of storage in the form of two
> Intel 7110 1 Mbit bubble memory chips and their 7242 formatter/sense
> amplifiers.
>
> One of the cartridges contains the one and only copy of the terminals'
> firmware, which I believe they need to load up at each reboot. Naturally,
> extracting the contents of that irreplaceable cartridge for archival, and
> potential future emulation, is going to be a very high priority for me. I
> have a few different approaches in mind for accomplishing that. One
> approach would be to remove the two memory devices from the critical
> cartridge in order to dump their contents in an independent bubble memory
> subsystem.
>
> With that in mind, I'd like to get my hands on a working Intel 7110 bubble
> memory subsystem, or the parts to build one myself (i.e., a complete
> 7110/7220/7230/7242/7250/7254 chipset that I could make a board around).
>
> Might anybody here have what I need available for sale or trade? I might
> be able to use some arbitrary old computer or other device that has a
> subsystem based around the Intel 7110, or a development kit such as the
> Intel BPK-72, or a chipset to make my own board.
>
> If I can't acquire or make the hardware to dump the memory chips outside
> of their native system, then I think my next option would be to passively
> snoop the host bus interface of the Intel 7220 controller I expect to find
> inside the terminals as they perform their initial firmware load, so that I
> can reconstruct the cartridge contents from the trace data.
>
> The terminals were made by the Librascope division of Singer, and
> brochures can be found here:
>
> http://www.librascopememories.com/Librascope_Memories/
> Product_Literature_files/Communications%20Terminal.pdf
>
> http://www.librascopememories.com/Librascope_Memories/
> Product_Literature_files/SST.pdf
>
> http://www.librascopememories.com/Librascope_Memories/
> Product_Literature_files/Bubble%20Memory%20Cartridge.pdf
>
> I already have the critical cartridge in hand, and I posted some pictures
> of it on Twitter:
>
> https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/964578291767173120
>
>
>
>
> --
> Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
> http://www.nf6x.net/
>
>
>

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Thu Feb 22 15:28:52 2018
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 13:28:52 -0800
Subject: WTB Intel 7110 Bubble Memory Subsystem or Chipset
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR14MB1600645D416279B3619E31A8A3CD0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
References: <B4DA7BFF-170C-46AB-850A-2F1365C1F378@nf6x.net>
 <CAA-F0u849WyF7WnFuA-nTbRVxmmQFWJg25GveuxY-pvb5iJgng@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR14MB1600645D416279B3619E31A8A3CD0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <777BBA8B-0D47-4B72-9771-BBBAA9AFB394@nf6x.net>


> On Feb 22, 2018, at 1:23 PM, dwight via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Do not remove the chip from the bias magnets. All will be lost if you do.

Is my understanding correct that removing the entire 7110 module as a unit (whether socketed or soldered in) should be somewhat safe, but any attempt to disassemble the module would likely disturb the bias field and destroy the data?


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 22 15:29:03 2018
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 21:29:03 +0000
Subject: Honeywell DDP-516 console on Ebay - PLEASE don't bid!
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBucpyhHeox-ZHSpPrg5jwxTrN8seRt3U8FRACpGC-A9ESg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <33d681a1-91c6-cedf-6100-484d3f0f4324@hachti.de>
 <161bf069f5a-669-583a@webjas-vaa198.srv.aolmail.net>,
 <CABGJBucpyhHeox-ZHSpPrg5jwxTrN8seRt3U8FRACpGC-A9ESg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR14MB1600372E3E7E06630D68D241A3CD0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>

A library near me has art work facade about 20 feet tall with the castings of old radios, tv's and computers. Some of these I'd have liked to have had. I doubt any were saved after making the original casting.

Dwight


________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Bill Degnan via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2018 11:51:35 AM
To: Ed Sharpe; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Honeywell DDP-516 console on Ebay - PLEASE don't bid!

> On Thursday, February 22, 2018 Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> On 22.02.2018 16:18, Bill Degnan wrote:
> > All I have so far is the
> > console and a core module.   I am looking for the rest of the computer
> > if anyone has one...
> Ah, good to know that there is a spare core stack around :-P
>
> > http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=655
> I remember - having already commented on it...
>
> The front panel is quite dump. Everything is handled in the CPU and the
> PSU.
>
> BTW you know that the schematics of the DDP-516 can be found on bitsavers?
>
> Kind regards
>
> Philipp
>
>
On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 2:38 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org
> wrote:

> some panel  hoader could drive this thru the roof....  I ran into someine
> this year with no interest really in the computers but like the panels for
> art....  with deep pockets. which makes them even scarier.....ed#
> www.smecc.org<http://www.smecc.org>
>
> Sent from AOL Mobile Mail



I can accept someone keeping the front panel and dumping the computer more
so than when on strips a  keyboard from the terminal.  Two reasons - One
because with the front panel one can build something underneath to replace
the original computer.  Second - The computer may simply be too big to keep
around

But I am sure there is a Fridays restaurant somewhere in the USA with a
UNIVAC front panel or something sad like that on the wall.

Bill

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 22 15:36:51 2018
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 21:36:51 +0000
Subject: WTB Intel 7110 Bubble Memory Subsystem or Chipset
In-Reply-To: <777BBA8B-0D47-4B72-9771-BBBAA9AFB394@nf6x.net>
References: <B4DA7BFF-170C-46AB-850A-2F1365C1F378@nf6x.net>
 <CAA-F0u849WyF7WnFuA-nTbRVxmmQFWJg25GveuxY-pvb5iJgng@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR14MB1600645D416279B3619E31A8A3CD0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>,
 <777BBA8B-0D47-4B72-9771-BBBAA9AFB394@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <MWHPR14MB1600BF13FAFE52EEA9722967A3CD0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>

The bias field keeps the domains from becoming random. It is interesting that I was reading about making newer versions of bubble like memory with thin films. They are expecting something like 10 times the data density that current spinning media can have and faster access with no moving parts.

Dwight


________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Mark J. Blair via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2018 1:28:52 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: WTB Intel 7110 Bubble Memory Subsystem or Chipset


> On Feb 22, 2018, at 1:23 PM, dwight via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Do not remove the chip from the bias magnets. All will be lost if you do.

Is my understanding correct that removing the entire 7110 module as a unit (whether socketed or soldered in) should be somewhat safe, but any attempt to disassemble the module would likely disturb the bias field and destroy the data?


--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From rtomek at ceti.pl  Thu Feb 22 15:40:07 2018
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 22:40:07 +0100
Subject: Alpine vs mutt?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802221237380.10671@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802221237380.10671@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <20180222214007.GC31642@tau1.ceti.pl>

On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 12:38:56PM -0800, geneb via cctalk wrote:
> >Before that, I have been using pine (nowadays named alpine), which had
> >configuration edited via builtin options editor and before that, elm,
> >never configured by me (AFAIR - about 20yago). So, with this
> >perspective, I can say mutt is not bad and I intend sticking to it for
> >a while.
> 
> What about mutt do you prefer over alpine?

Maybe I cannot give one strong argument for mutt over alpine, but:

 - I used pine on a "Unix shell" account attached to my address, then
   after upgrade I decided to try mutt; alpine is installed but
   somehow I never again ran it here

 - I still have alpine installed at home "Unix shell account" and use
   it for minor mail processing, but for longer reading of my huge
   mailboxes mutt feels a bit nicer to me, so I use it 

 - in mutt, I can press "l" in "mailbox view"/"index view" and limit
   displayed items only to those matching given expression; so for
   example, if I want to see only mails with "[name of certain group
   in subject]", I can do this - I have first learned about such thing
   after switching to mutt, so I have no idea if alpine can do such
   trick, too; when I am done I switch back with "l all"

 - in mutt, I can send a mail through a preconfigured script in Python
   (some kind of preprocessor written by me), which is bound to
   certain key; I had no idea how to achieve this in alpine; I
   understand I can have more such programs bound to more keys in
   mutt, never tried in alpine

 - for a while, I used to repair broken threads in my inbox using
   mutt's "link thread"; no idea about similar thing in alpine

 - I have found out that I really like the 256-color mode; it took me
   a bit of trying, and maybe not all colors are nice enough for my
   eyes, so I will have to redo some configuration later, but I find
   it easier to plow through few hundred mails a day when they are
   colored (also, some are colored differently based on certain
   properties, like "sent from family member" or "from a buddy" - I
   have set it in muttrc, for each member of the group by name or
   other factor); perhaps I could color mails based on mailing list,
   but I have to try it yet - not sure if it would do me any good,
   however.

Please note, I do not claim that alpine cannot do those things. I have
been using mutt while each of the needs arose and have been satisfied
by finding relevant mutt-based solution. I never looked for
alpine-based solution, so my preference for mutt might come from
ignorance. But I am now dug deeply in this hole.

What I dislike about mutt:

 - No built-in scripting language, for more advanced mail
   processing. But it is not really hard to go around this
   limitation, so dislike is not very strong.

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 15:49:18 2018
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 16:49:18 -0500
Subject: Alpine vs mutt?
In-Reply-To: <20180222214007.GC31642@tau1.ceti.pl>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802221237380.10671@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <20180222214007.GC31642@tau1.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <CAALmimmTs1E0QW8tzoSjWo9B8BV5pVt3zO8UMCNNDRY-cw60Bg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 4:40 PM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 12:38:56PM -0800, geneb via cctalk wrote:
>> >Before that, I have been using pine (nowadays named alpine), which had
>> >configuration edited via builtin options editor and before that, elm,
>>
>> What about mutt do you prefer over alpine?

I started using mutt about 15 years ago when I was asked for "disc 3
of 3" on a Red Hat Linux install and I was curious what was being
pulled from the end of the shelf and it was one and only one package,
mutt.  I decided to see what was up and why I would want it and I
immediately threw out Pine for mutt.  I just found the keyboard
navigation shortcuts to be entirely intuitive (I liked elm but I never
liked Pine) and mutt handled MIME attached files acceptably well for a
textual client.

I've been using web-based MUAs since I switched to Gmail for personal,
and for many corporate e-mail accounts, including at my present
employer.  I haven't used a textual MUA on UNIX/Linux except 'mail'
and mutt since about 2003, but I did use mutt every day from about
2003-2009.

-ethan

From spacewar at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 16:08:56 2018
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 15:08:56 -0700
Subject: WTB Intel 7110 Bubble Memory Subsystem or Chipset
In-Reply-To: <CAA-F0u849WyF7WnFuA-nTbRVxmmQFWJg25GveuxY-pvb5iJgng@mail.gmail.com>
References: <B4DA7BFF-170C-46AB-850A-2F1365C1F378@nf6x.net>
 <CAA-F0u849WyF7WnFuA-nTbRVxmmQFWJg25GveuxY-pvb5iJgng@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTS5pW_a2Pf-etbosmAmho5A57t+-+C3G=L-0COsXJBgCQ@mail.gmail.com>

It's easy to design an emulator at the level of the D7220 host interface.

It is _difficult_ to design an emulator at the interface between the D7220
controller and the 7242 Formatter/Sense Amplifier, because the 7242 is a
tricky little beastie, and while the interface is somewhat documented, the
docs aren't terribly clear and not entirely complete, because Intel didn't
think anyone would want to use the 7242 without the D7220.

Unfortunately what Mark needs is to emulate it at the 7242 level, because
the 7242 is in the cartridge and the D7220 is in the host.

From spacewar at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 16:11:08 2018
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 15:11:08 -0700
Subject: WTB Intel 7110 Bubble Memory Subsystem or Chipset
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR14MB1600645D416279B3619E31A8A3CD0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
References: <B4DA7BFF-170C-46AB-850A-2F1365C1F378@nf6x.net>
 <CAA-F0u849WyF7WnFuA-nTbRVxmmQFWJg25GveuxY-pvb5iJgng@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR14MB1600645D416279B3619E31A8A3CD0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTS9RdTGPC8vjeNfEZF1_+NfrWztCFezqSNuLu3f9H+Yzw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 2:23 PM, dwight via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> Do not remove the chip from the bias magnets. All will be lost if you do.
>

That's true, but AFAIK all commercially produced bubble memory devices,
including Intel (7110 1Mbit, 7114 4Mbit) and TI, the bias magnets are
integral to the packaging of the device, so there's no danger of that
unless you pry apart the device packaging.

From spacewar at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 16:11:57 2018
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 15:11:57 -0700
Subject: WTB Intel 7110 Bubble Memory Subsystem or Chipset
In-Reply-To: <777BBA8B-0D47-4B72-9771-BBBAA9AFB394@nf6x.net>
References: <B4DA7BFF-170C-46AB-850A-2F1365C1F378@nf6x.net>
 <CAA-F0u849WyF7WnFuA-nTbRVxmmQFWJg25GveuxY-pvb5iJgng@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR14MB1600645D416279B3619E31A8A3CD0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <777BBA8B-0D47-4B72-9771-BBBAA9AFB394@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTS6GV4G3P3WF9u0JAQGZ7TiwENzA4ZYpUCwKP7Fugc1+A@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 2:28 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Is my understanding correct that removing the entire 7110 module as a unit
> (whether socketed or soldered in) should be somewhat safe, but any attempt
> to disassemble the module would likely disturb the bias field and destroy
> the data?
>

Yes, you can safely remove the entire 7110 without altering the data
within, as long as you don't subject it to strong external magnetic fields.

From spacewar at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 16:33:23 2018
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 15:33:23 -0700
Subject: WTB Intel 7110 Bubble Memory Subsystem or Chipset
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTS6GV4G3P3WF9u0JAQGZ7TiwENzA4ZYpUCwKP7Fugc1+A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <B4DA7BFF-170C-46AB-850A-2F1365C1F378@nf6x.net>
 <CAA-F0u849WyF7WnFuA-nTbRVxmmQFWJg25GveuxY-pvb5iJgng@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR14MB1600645D416279B3619E31A8A3CD0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <777BBA8B-0D47-4B72-9771-BBBAA9AFB394@nf6x.net>
 <CAFrGgTS6GV4G3P3WF9u0JAQGZ7TiwENzA4ZYpUCwKP7Fugc1+A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTT9RvdGern26A7eLs0MP1nzEwyVuPrqN6vMC-X=n_WSxA@mail.gmail.com>

If you do lose the formatting of an Intel 7110 bubble memory device, to
reformat it you need something Intel called a "seed module". The
instructions to build a seed module are in the BPK72 manual.

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Thu Feb 22 16:39:24 2018
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 14:39:24 -0800
Subject: WTB Intel 7110 Bubble Memory Subsystem or Chipset
In-Reply-To: <CAFrGgTT9RvdGern26A7eLs0MP1nzEwyVuPrqN6vMC-X=n_WSxA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <B4DA7BFF-170C-46AB-850A-2F1365C1F378@nf6x.net>
 <CAA-F0u849WyF7WnFuA-nTbRVxmmQFWJg25GveuxY-pvb5iJgng@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR14MB1600645D416279B3619E31A8A3CD0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <777BBA8B-0D47-4B72-9771-BBBAA9AFB394@nf6x.net>
 <CAFrGgTS6GV4G3P3WF9u0JAQGZ7TiwENzA4ZYpUCwKP7Fugc1+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTT9RvdGern26A7eLs0MP1nzEwyVuPrqN6vMC-X=n_WSxA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <446988D5-77F0-4A51-A42B-7A3E85BC52D8@nf6x.net>


> On Feb 22, 2018, at 2:33 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> If you do lose the formatting of an Intel 7110 bubble memory device, to
> reformat it you need something Intel called a "seed module". The
> instructions to build a seed module are in the BPK72 manual.


I've seen those instructions. As I understand it, I may need to do that to restore a module to operation if it's lost its seed. But if that has happened to either of the two modules in my firmware cartridge already, then it's all over.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From spacewar at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 16:52:42 2018
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 15:52:42 -0700
Subject: WTB Intel 7110 Bubble Memory Subsystem or Chipset
In-Reply-To: <446988D5-77F0-4A51-A42B-7A3E85BC52D8@nf6x.net>
References: <B4DA7BFF-170C-46AB-850A-2F1365C1F378@nf6x.net>
 <CAA-F0u849WyF7WnFuA-nTbRVxmmQFWJg25GveuxY-pvb5iJgng@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR14MB1600645D416279B3619E31A8A3CD0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <777BBA8B-0D47-4B72-9771-BBBAA9AFB394@nf6x.net>
 <CAFrGgTS6GV4G3P3WF9u0JAQGZ7TiwENzA4ZYpUCwKP7Fugc1+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFrGgTT9RvdGern26A7eLs0MP1nzEwyVuPrqN6vMC-X=n_WSxA@mail.gmail.com>
 <446988D5-77F0-4A51-A42B-7A3E85BC52D8@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTTCAEm0XXM9sCyd3mOve8AHrzsaUSs8QwLa=Dw+r5iZ0g@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 3:39 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> I've seen those instructions. As I understand it, I may need to do that to
> restore a module to operation if it's lost its seed. But if that has
> happened to either of the two modules in my firmware cartridge already,
> then it's all over.
>

Yes. However, unless someone deliberately tried to erase the module,
there's no particular reason to think that such a problem has occurred. The
things are very robust, which is exactly why the military liked them so
much.

From allisonportable at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 17:14:45 2018
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 18:14:45 -0500
Subject: WTB Intel 7110 Bubble Memory Subsystem or Chipset
In-Reply-To: <B4DA7BFF-170C-46AB-850A-2F1365C1F378@nf6x.net>
References: <B4DA7BFF-170C-46AB-850A-2F1365C1F378@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <1e7132d7-6d20-ab59-e974-ef7bdfe78aa7@gmail.com>

On 02/22/2018 03:08 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote:
> I'm about to acquire a couple of 1980s-vintage military surplus AN/UGC-137A terminals (i.e., glass TTYs with some local message preparation and storage capabilities) which have a bubble memory subsystem. They use plug-in cartridges containing 256 kbytes of storage in the form of two Intel 7110 1 Mbit bubble memory chips and their 7242 formatter/sense amplifiers.
>
> One of the cartridges contains the one and only copy of the terminals' firmware, which I believe they need to load up at each reboot. Naturally, extracting the contents of that irreplaceable cartridge for archival, and potential future emulation, is going to be a very high priority for me. I have a few different approaches in mind for accomplishing that. One approach would be to remove the two memory devices from the critical cartridge in order to dump their contents in an independent bubble memory subsystem.
>
> With that in mind, I'd like to get my hands on a working Intel 7110 bubble memory subsystem, or the parts to build one myself (i.e., a complete 7110/7220/7230/7242/7250/7254 chipset that I could make a board around).
What you plan is risky.? You first need to know how they organize the
data in each of the loops.
The problem is did that interleave the two bubble or are they addressed
seperately.? Both possibilities
were the case.? Each BM required its own CPG, FSA and drivers but could
share the 7220 BMC.

> Might anybody here have what I need available for sale or trade? I might be able to use some arbitrary old computer or other device that has a subsystem based around the Intel 7110, or a development kit such as the Intel BPK-72, or a chipset to make my own board.
I got two of them back in the 80s, they are now part of a CP/M Z80
system I built back then.
Not much storage and sorta slow and power hungry.

> If I can't acquire or make the hardware to dump the memory chips outside of their native system, then I think my next option would be to passively snoop the host bus interface of the Intel 7220 controller I expect to find inside the terminals as they perform their initial firmware load, so that I can reconstruct the cartridge contents from the trace data.
The best and lowest risk point is to snoop is at the data bus
interface.? Logic analyzer or something fast enough to
grab the data.? The 7220 chip set gave a nice bus interface with a
fairly simple command set.? Its also the side of
the device thats well documented.

I may have a few of the basic bubble memory units 7110 as they were
socketed.? No extra CPD, FSA, Driver devices,
?or BMC 7220.


Allison

> The terminals were made by the Librascope division of Singer, and brochures can be found here:
>
> http://www.librascopememories.com/Librascope_Memories/Product_Literature_files/Communications%20Terminal.pdf
>
> http://www.librascopememories.com/Librascope_Memories/Product_Literature_files/SST.pdf
>
> http://www.librascopememories.com/Librascope_Memories/Product_Literature_files/Bubble%20Memory%20Cartridge.pdf
>
> I already have the critical cartridge in hand, and I posted some pictures of it on Twitter:
>
> https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/964578291767173120
>
>
>
>


From rtomek at ceti.pl  Thu Feb 22 17:20:54 2018
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 00:20:54 +0100
Subject: Alpine vs mutt?
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimmTs1E0QW8tzoSjWo9B8BV5pVt3zO8UMCNNDRY-cw60Bg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.LRH.2.21.1802221237380.10671@sidewinder.deltasoft.com>
 <20180222214007.GC31642@tau1.ceti.pl>
 <CAALmimmTs1E0QW8tzoSjWo9B8BV5pVt3zO8UMCNNDRY-cw60Bg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20180222232054.GD31642@tau1.ceti.pl>

On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 04:49:18PM -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote:
[...]
> 
> I've been using web-based MUAs since I switched to Gmail for personal,
> and for many corporate e-mail accounts, including at my present
> employer.  I haven't used a textual MUA on UNIX/Linux except 'mail'
> and mutt since about 2003, but I did use mutt every day from about
> 2003-2009.

A quick look gave me this:

https://gitlab.com/muttmua/mutt/wikis/UseCases/Gmail

Can be found on terminal with:

  surfraw google -t -browser=`which elinks` gmail mutt

(requires packages: surfraw, elinks or lynx)

I do not have gmail account, but I am using mutt to access another one
via imap+ssl. So, if gmail can do imaps, perhaps there is a way.

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 22 19:09:32 2018
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 01:09:32 +0000
Subject: WTB Intel 7110 Bubble Memory Subsystem or Chipset
In-Reply-To: <1e7132d7-6d20-ab59-e974-ef7bdfe78aa7@gmail.com>
References: <B4DA7BFF-170C-46AB-850A-2F1365C1F378@nf6x.net>,
 <1e7132d7-6d20-ab59-e974-ef7bdfe78aa7@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR14MB1600C7DF2ADF8175D443890BA3CC0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>

Looking things up, I don't think the Nicolet one with the scope was the Intel one.

Dwight


________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of allison via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2018 3:14:45 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: WTB Intel 7110 Bubble Memory Subsystem or Chipset

On 02/22/2018 03:08 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote:
> I'm about to acquire a couple of 1980s-vintage military surplus AN/UGC-137A terminals (i.e., glass TTYs with some local message preparation and storage capabilities) which have a bubble memory subsystem. They use plug-in cartridges containing 256 kbytes of storage in the form of two Intel 7110 1 Mbit bubble memory chips and their 7242 formatter/sense amplifiers.
>
> One of the cartridges contains the one and only copy of the terminals' firmware, which I believe they need to load up at each reboot. Naturally, extracting the contents of that irreplaceable cartridge for archival, and potential future emulation, is going to be a very high priority for me. I have a few different approaches in mind for accomplishing that. One approach would be to remove the two memory devices from the critical cartridge in order to dump their contents in an independent bubble memory subsystem.
>
> With that in mind, I'd like to get my hands on a working Intel 7110 bubble memory subsystem, or the parts to build one myself (i.e., a complete 7110/7220/7230/7242/7250/7254 chipset that I could make a board around).
What you plan is risky.  You first need to know how they organize the
data in each of the loops.
The problem is did that interleave the two bubble or are they addressed
seperately.  Both possibilities
were the case.  Each BM required its own CPG, FSA and drivers but could
share the 7220 BMC.

> Might anybody here have what I need available for sale or trade? I might be able to use some arbitrary old computer or other device that has a subsystem based around the Intel 7110, or a development kit such as the Intel BPK-72, or a chipset to make my own board.
I got two of them back in the 80s, they are now part of a CP/M Z80
system I built back then.
Not much storage and sorta slow and power hungry.

> If I can't acquire or make the hardware to dump the memory chips outside of their native system, then I think my next option would be to passively snoop the host bus interface of the Intel 7220 controller I expect to find inside the terminals as they perform their initial firmware load, so that I can reconstruct the cartridge contents from the trace data.
The best and lowest risk point is to snoop is at the data bus
interface.  Logic analyzer or something fast enough to
grab the data.  The 7220 chip set gave a nice bus interface with a
fairly simple command set.  Its also the side of
the device thats well documented.

I may have a few of the basic bubble memory units 7110 as they were
socketed.  No extra CPD, FSA, Driver devices,
 or BMC 7220.


Allison

> The terminals were made by the Librascope division of Singer, and brochures can be found here:
>
> http://www.librascopememories.com/Librascope_Memories/Product_Literature_files/Communications%20Terminal.pdf
>
> http://www.librascopememories.com/Librascope_Memories/Product_Literature_files/SST.pdf
>
> http://www.librascopememories.com/Librascope_Memories/Product_Literature_files/Bubble%20Memory%20Cartridge.pdf
>
> I already have the critical cartridge in hand, and I posted some pictures of it on Twitter:
>
> https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/964578291767173120
>
>
>
>


From elson at pico-systems.com  Thu Feb 22 20:24:46 2018
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 20:24:46 -0600
Subject: Will be up for sale in this calendar year 360 Front Panel
In-Reply-To: <CAA-F0u-Tayc0aEvXvRqVdcQm-r2v9+y-xWm6jOM6wOZrTSAWAg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA-F0u-Tayc0aEvXvRqVdcQm-r2v9+y-xWm6jOM6wOZrTSAWAg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5A8F7B6E.9020607@pico-systems.com>

On 02/22/2018 11:56 AM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote:
> I thought I would post a heads for
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/36CxlZQJDssj5uLh1
>
>
That is specifically a 360/50 front panel (upside down in 
the picture).

Jon

From pete at petelancashire.com  Thu Feb 22 20:31:33 2018
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 18:31:33 -0800
Subject: Will be up for sale in this calendar year 360 Front Panel
In-Reply-To: <5A8F7B6E.9020607@pico-systems.com>
References: <CAA-F0u-Tayc0aEvXvRqVdcQm-r2v9+y-xWm6jOM6wOZrTSAWAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5A8F7B6E.9020607@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u8MRbZUbORq1uqvL4TbOL9WPnq_eEwofxt8DNQXyy_pug@mail.gmail.com>

Jon,

Thank your for the type

Upside down since I'm no longer suppose to be lifting stuff and it is more
stable that way :-)



On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 6:24 PM, Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:

> On 02/22/2018 11:56 AM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote:
>
>> I thought I would post a heads for
>>
>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/36CxlZQJDssj5uLh1
>>
>>
>> That is specifically a 360/50 front panel (upside down in the picture).
>
> Jon
>
>

From pete at petelancashire.com  Thu Feb 22 22:37:30 2018
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 20:37:30 -0800
Subject: WTB Intel 7110 Bubble Memory Subsystem or Chipset
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR14MB1600C7DF2ADF8175D443890BA3CC0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
References: <B4DA7BFF-170C-46AB-850A-2F1365C1F378@nf6x.net>
 <1e7132d7-6d20-ab59-e974-ef7bdfe78aa7@gmail.com>
 <MWHPR14MB1600C7DF2ADF8175D443890BA3CC0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u8U7CsBaj_J+UUpAtSMnKqLsD5GetkPpi-JPKN-QPWFqw@mail.gmail.com>

This is all bringing back when Intel tried to see BM's to me at Tektronix.
Got to go see them being made. Something just told me  "dead end".

-pete

On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 5:09 PM, dwight via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> Looking things up, I don't think the Nicolet one with the scope was the
> Intel one.
>
> Dwight
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of allison via
> cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2018 3:14:45 PM
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: WTB Intel 7110 Bubble Memory Subsystem or Chipset
>
> On 02/22/2018 03:08 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote:
> > I'm about to acquire a couple of 1980s-vintage military surplus
> AN/UGC-137A terminals (i.e., glass TTYs with some local message preparation
> and storage capabilities) which have a bubble memory subsystem. They use
> plug-in cartridges containing 256 kbytes of storage in the form of two
> Intel 7110 1 Mbit bubble memory chips and their 7242 formatter/sense
> amplifiers.
> >
> > One of the cartridges contains the one and only copy of the terminals'
> firmware, which I believe they need to load up at each reboot. Naturally,
> extracting the contents of that irreplaceable cartridge for archival, and
> potential future emulation, is going to be a very high priority for me. I
> have a few different approaches in mind for accomplishing that. One
> approach would be to remove the two memory devices from the critical
> cartridge in order to dump their contents in an independent bubble memory
> subsystem.
> >
> > With that in mind, I'd like to get my hands on a working Intel 7110
> bubble memory subsystem, or the parts to build one myself (i.e., a complete
> 7110/7220/7230/7242/7250/7254 chipset that I could make a board around).
> What you plan is risky.  You first need to know how they organize the
> data in each of the loops.
> The problem is did that interleave the two bubble or are they addressed
> seperately.  Both possibilities
> were the case.  Each BM required its own CPG, FSA and drivers but could
> share the 7220 BMC.
>
> > Might anybody here have what I need available for sale or trade? I might
> be able to use some arbitrary old computer or other device that has a
> subsystem based around the Intel 7110, or a development kit such as the
> Intel BPK-72, or a chipset to make my own board.
> I got two of them back in the 80s, they are now part of a CP/M Z80
> system I built back then.
> Not much storage and sorta slow and power hungry.
>
> > If I can't acquire or make the hardware to dump the memory chips outside
> of their native system, then I think my next option would be to passively
> snoop the host bus interface of the Intel 7220 controller I expect to find
> inside the terminals as they perform their initial firmware load, so that I
> can reconstruct the cartridge contents from the trace data.
> The best and lowest risk point is to snoop is at the data bus
> interface.  Logic analyzer or something fast enough to
> grab the data.  The 7220 chip set gave a nice bus interface with a
> fairly simple command set.  Its also the side of
> the device thats well documented.
>
> I may have a few of the basic bubble memory units 7110 as they were
> socketed.  No extra CPD, FSA, Driver devices,
>  or BMC 7220.
>
>
> Allison
>
> > The terminals were made by the Librascope division of Singer, and
> brochures can be found here:
> >
> > http://www.librascopememories.com/Librascope_Memories/
> Product_Literature_files/Communications%20Terminal.pdf
> >
> > http://www.librascopememories.com/Librascope_Memories/
> Product_Literature_files/SST.pdf
> >
> > http://www.librascopememories.com/Librascope_Memories/
> Product_Literature_files/Bubble%20Memory%20Cartridge.pdf
> >
> > I already have the critical cartridge in hand, and I posted some
> pictures of it on Twitter:
> >
> > https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/964578291767173120
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

From pete at petelancashire.com  Fri Feb 23 00:39:11 2018
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 22:39:11 -0800
Subject: damn ....
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u96wZ33TBuc38J9P9SwjEST4x0bW-K7ot2023khgpKLPw@mail.gmail.com>

https://photos.app.goo.gl/EfDc3rRMfyfTNdgw2

>From my days at Burroughs writing hardware test programs

96 col cards were the standard on the later 1700's

I had full access from midnight to 7AM but the shop was window only
until the next night.

Turn around time during the day could be as much as 4 hours.

-pete

From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Fri Feb 23 00:46:14 2018
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 00:46:14 -0600
Subject: damn ....
In-Reply-To: <CAA-F0u96wZ33TBuc38J9P9SwjEST4x0bW-K7ot2023khgpKLPw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA-F0u96wZ33TBuc38J9P9SwjEST4x0bW-K7ot2023khgpKLPw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs21P4Qq5fD1_SL3Vp2RCNpB0gY4abjdWSj_0XG3GRnnMSQ@mail.gmail.com>

someone needs to make a meme outa that

From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Feb 23 01:33:19 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 23:33:19 -0800
Subject: damn ....
In-Reply-To: <CAA-F0u96wZ33TBuc38J9P9SwjEST4x0bW-K7ot2023khgpKLPw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA-F0u96wZ33TBuc38J9P9SwjEST4x0bW-K7ot2023khgpKLPw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2333517f-6ea3-ec18-9352-b7921fff0222@sydex.com>

On 02/22/2018 10:39 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote:
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/EfDc3rRMfyfTNdgw2
> 
>>From my days at Burroughs writing hardware test programs

The IBM 96 column card always seemed to me like a throwback to the
Univac 90-column card--multiple rows and round holes--and 6 columns per
row (8 bit EBCDIC used a rather bizarre encoding scheme that I never
bothered to wrap my mind around).

--Chuck

From jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch  Fri Feb 23 01:33:24 2018
From: jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 08:33:24 +0100
Subject: Univac 9400 panel ( Was:Re: Will be up for sale in this calendar year
 360 Front Panel)
In-Reply-To: <CAA-F0u-Tayc0aEvXvRqVdcQm-r2v9+y-xWm6jOM6wOZrTSAWAg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA-F0u-Tayc0aEvXvRqVdcQm-r2v9+y-xWm6jOM6wOZrTSAWAg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <805d1291-34cc-a017-bf69-6bc693e72d71@bluewin.ch>

On 22.02.2018 18:56, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote:
> I thought I would post a heads for
> 
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/36CxlZQJDssj5uLh1
> 
> I have the IBM 360 aluminum plate that goes on top, it is scratched. More
> detailed and better pictures as I dig deeper.


...and if someone needs a nice Univac 9400 console to go with that, I have one doing nothing in my basement.
Good condition, but flatcables cut. Located in Switzerland I'm afraid.....


Was planning to one day add an FPGA behind it, but I now realized that I have enough on my classiccmp plate as it is...


Jos  


From couryhouse at aol.com  Fri Feb 23 01:37:05 2018
From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 02:37:05 -0500
Subject: Univac 9400 panel ( Was:Re: Will be up for sale in this
 calendar year 360 Front Panel)
In-Reply-To: <805d1291-34cc-a017-bf69-6bc693e72d71@bluewin.ch>
Message-ID: <161c19815ea-1166-9158@webjas-vaa192.srv.aolmail.net>

have?the 360-30 ?aluminum?bar on top but not eh panel... wish?I had ? kept it! ?ca. 1980 when I ?got the bar... Ed#
?
In a message dated 2/23/2018 12:33:34 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:
?
 On 22.02.2018 18:56, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote:
> I thought I would post a heads for
> 
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/36CxlZQJDssj5uLh1
> 
> I have the IBM 360 aluminum plate that goes on top, it is scratched. More
> detailed and better pictures as I dig deeper.


...and if someone needs a nice Univac 9400 console to go with that, I have one doing nothing in my basement.
Good condition, but flatcables cut. Located in Switzerland I'm afraid.....


Was planning to one day add an FPGA behind it, but I now realized that I have enough on my classiccmp plate as it is...


Jos 


From pete at petelancashire.com  Fri Feb 23 01:39:54 2018
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 23:39:54 -0800
Subject: damn ....
In-Reply-To: <2333517f-6ea3-ec18-9352-b7921fff0222@sydex.com>
References: <CAA-F0u96wZ33TBuc38J9P9SwjEST4x0bW-K7ot2023khgpKLPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <2333517f-6ea3-ec18-9352-b7921fff0222@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u9K2iZ+-9FMkRP7rgpokF3kWEznpRHbGuC85C4iU-zOhw@mail.gmail.com>

I can be more blunt, it was a total business failure mostly too late by
then key to tape or direct entry had started to come into the market and
could you imagine going to a place like an insurance company that had whole
floors full of card cabinets that only fit only 80 col cords and sell
them a different format ?

At least the round chad did not stick you your clothing or the carpets.

-pete

On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 11:33 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 02/22/2018 10:39 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote:
> > https://photos.app.goo.gl/EfDc3rRMfyfTNdgw2
> >
> >>From my days at Burroughs writing hardware test programs
>
> The IBM 96 column card always seemed to me like a throwback to the
> Univac 90-column card--multiple rows and round holes--and 6 columns per
> row (8 bit EBCDIC used a rather bizarre encoding scheme that I never
> bothered to wrap my mind around).
>
> --Chuck
>
>

From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Fri Feb 23 01:58:35 2018
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 02:58:35 -0500
Subject: damn ....
References: <CAA-F0u96wZ33TBuc38J9P9SwjEST4x0bW-K7ot2023khgpKLPw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E7043A2CFC724393A331DE77B8A2A5A0@310e2>

Sounds like my days as a contract programmer for Burroughs; had the keys to the building and the combination to the (large) machine room and did all my compiling etc. in the night when I was the only one in the building. Some pictures somewhere of a much younger me at the console of a B2700...

The good old days when no one worried about security...

Still have some blank 96 col cards somewhere, as well as edge-punched (PPT format) and 80 col tab cards.

 m

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pete Lancashire via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
To: "General" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2018 1:39 AM
Subject: damn ....


> https://photos.app.goo.gl/EfDc3rRMfyfTNdgw2
> 
> From my days at Burroughs writing hardware test programs
> 
> 96 col cards were the standard on the later 1700's
> 
> I had full access from midnight to 7AM but the shop was window only
> until the next night.
> 
> Turn around time during the day could be as much as 4 hours.
> 
> -pete

From hachti at hachti.de  Fri Feb 23 08:22:09 2018
From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 15:22:09 +0100
Subject: Honeywell DDP-516 console on Ebay - PLEASE don't bid!
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBucpyhHeox-ZHSpPrg5jwxTrN8seRt3U8FRACpGC-A9ESg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <33d681a1-91c6-cedf-6100-484d3f0f4324@hachti.de>
 <161bf069f5a-669-583a@webjas-vaa198.srv.aolmail.net>
 <CABGJBucpyhHeox-ZHSpPrg5jwxTrN8seRt3U8FRACpGC-A9ESg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49a3d5f0-3db2-1e6e-c2ef-7b3ae4184ef7@hachti.de>


On 22.02.2018 20:51, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:

> I can accept someone keeping the front panel and dumping the computer more
> so than when on strips a  keyboard from the terminal.

Oh, what!?! I have a totally different opinion on that :-)

> Two reasons - One
> because with the front panel one can build something underneath to replace
> the original computer.

With the stripped keyboard one can build something underneath to replace 
the original terminal as well. Even easier than the computer.

>  Second - The computer may simply be too big to keep
> around

There is no vintage computer in existence that is too big to keep.
There are only vintage computers which are too big for some 
collectors/persons/institutions/museums/whatever.

But in my opinion it is never ok to scrap a big system and keep the 
front panel. Not in the 21st century.

Those big irons are getting more and more rare. And there are people and 
institutions which can mobilise amounts of power, money, will, knowledge 
and enthusiasm that cannot even be imagined by the common sort of people 
who scrap, discard and destroy the real interesting machines. Still today.

These dangerous people appear in the form of managers, engineers, 
professors, <very intelligent whatever scientist>, former users of the 
systems or even the service technician who took care for the machine for 
years. And, the newest addition to that creepy army of educated morons: 
Stupid collectors and replica builders.

I know EXACTLY what I am talking about. I have seen things and felt the 
pain.

So again: There is NO NO NO reason to strip a frontpanel from a machine. 
It's always wrong. No exception. It's just plain wrong.


Kind regards

Philipp



From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com  Fri Feb 23 09:11:47 2018
From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 10:11:47 -0500
Subject: WTB Intel 7110 Bubble Memory Subsystem or Chipset
In-Reply-To: <B4DA7BFF-170C-46AB-850A-2F1365C1F378@nf6x.net>
References: <B4DA7BFF-170C-46AB-850A-2F1365C1F378@nf6x.net>
Message-ID: <CAJ2mpAhoOZ+AcXjWZxny3NxNF0C=QAq5kiLER-jM20d4Y55NZQ@mail.gmail.com>

That's one of the most beautiful machines I've ever seen! Are they
rare/expensive? (I'm guessing yes)

=]

--
Anders Nelson

+1 (517) 775-6129

www.erogear.com

On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 3:08 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I'm about to acquire a couple of 1980s-vintage military surplus
> AN/UGC-137A terminals (i.e., glass TTYs with some local message preparation
> and storage capabilities) which have a bubble memory subsystem. They use
> plug-in cartridges containing 256 kbytes of storage in the form of two
> Intel 7110 1 Mbit bubble memory chips and their 7242 formatter/sense
> amplifiers.
>
> One of the cartridges contains the one and only copy of the terminals'
> firmware, which I believe they need to load up at each reboot. Naturally,
> extracting the contents of that irreplaceable cartridge for archival, and
> potential future emulation, is going to be a very high priority for me. I
> have a few different approaches in mind for accomplishing that. One
> approach would be to remove the two memory devices from the critical
> cartridge in order to dump their contents in an independent bubble memory
> subsystem.
>
> With that in mind, I'd like to get my hands on a working Intel 7110 bubble
> memory subsystem, or the parts to build one myself (i.e., a complete
> 7110/7220/7230/7242/7250/7254 chipset that I could make a board around).
>
> Might anybody here have what I need available for sale or trade? I might
> be able to use some arbitrary old computer or other device that has a
> subsystem based around the Intel 7110, or a development kit such as the
> Intel BPK-72, or a chipset to make my own board.
>
> If I can't acquire or make the hardware to dump the memory chips outside
> of their native system, then I think my next option would be to passively
> snoop the host bus interface of the Intel 7220 controller I expect to find
> inside the terminals as they perform their initial firmware load, so that I
> can reconstruct the cartridge contents from the trace data.
>
> The terminals were made by the Librascope division of Singer, and
> brochures can be found here:
>
> http://www.librascopememories.com/Librascope_Memories/
> Product_Literature_files/Communications%20Terminal.pdf
>
> http://www.librascopememories.com/Librascope_Memories/
> Product_Literature_files/SST.pdf
>
> http://www.librascopememories.com/Librascope_Memories/
> Product_Literature_files/Bubble%20Memory%20Cartridge.pdf
>
> I already have the critical cartridge in hand, and I posted some pictures
> of it on Twitter:
>
> https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/964578291767173120
>
>
>
>
> --
> Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
> http://www.nf6x.net/
>
>

From nf6x at nf6x.net  Fri Feb 23 09:57:08 2018
From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 07:57:08 -0800
Subject: WTB Intel 7110 Bubble Memory Subsystem or Chipset
In-Reply-To: <CAJ2mpAhoOZ+AcXjWZxny3NxNF0C=QAq5kiLER-jM20d4Y55NZQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <B4DA7BFF-170C-46AB-850A-2F1365C1F378@nf6x.net>
 <CAJ2mpAhoOZ+AcXjWZxny3NxNF0C=QAq5kiLER-jM20d4Y55NZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <37868A27-54FB-4B54-8730-452B7616988F@nf6x.net>



> On Feb 23, 2018, at 07:11, Anders Nelson <anders.k.nelson at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> That's one of the most beautiful machines I've ever seen! Are they rare/expensive? (I'm guessing yes)

Yes to both! I don't know how many are out in the wild today, and I don't know how many were made. I don't even know yet whether they were truly fielded, or if they failed to be selected to fill the role that they were presumably competing for.



-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/


From aek at bitsavers.org  Fri Feb 23 10:25:24 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 08:25:24 -0800
Subject: Honeywell DDP-516 console on Ebay - PLEASE don't bid!
In-Reply-To: <49a3d5f0-3db2-1e6e-c2ef-7b3ae4184ef7@hachti.de>
References: <33d681a1-91c6-cedf-6100-484d3f0f4324@hachti.de>
 <161bf069f5a-669-583a@webjas-vaa198.srv.aolmail.net>
 <CABGJBucpyhHeox-ZHSpPrg5jwxTrN8seRt3U8FRACpGC-A9ESg@mail.gmail.com>
 <49a3d5f0-3db2-1e6e-c2ef-7b3ae4184ef7@hachti.de>
Message-ID: <06c1cb83-bed3-68e6-397c-991a2e1b3113@bitsavers.org>



On 2/23/18 6:22 AM, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk wrote:

> With the stripped keyboard one can build something underneath to replace the original terminal as well. 


Too bad that isn't what keyboard collectors do with them.

It is good to hear that if a Lisp Machine keyboard gets in the hands of someone who appreciates
them for what they are that they get attached to an emulator and aren't raped to be a L33T D00D's
gaming PC keyboard.




From elson at pico-systems.com  Fri Feb 23 11:23:55 2018
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 11:23:55 -0600
Subject: WTB Intel 7110 Bubble Memory Subsystem or Chipset
In-Reply-To: <CAA-F0u8U7CsBaj_J+UUpAtSMnKqLsD5GetkPpi-JPKN-QPWFqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <B4DA7BFF-170C-46AB-850A-2F1365C1F378@nf6x.net>
 <1e7132d7-6d20-ab59-e974-ef7bdfe78aa7@gmail.com>
 <MWHPR14MB1600C7DF2ADF8175D443890BA3CC0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAA-F0u8U7CsBaj_J+UUpAtSMnKqLsD5GetkPpi-JPKN-QPWFqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5A904E2B.8060606@pico-systems.com>

On 02/22/2018 10:37 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote:
> This is all bringing back when Intel tried to see BM's to me at Tektronix.
> Got to go see them being made. Something just told me  "dead end".
>
>
The original bubble memories were sort of dead end, but 
applying more advanced semiconductor lithography to them, 
going to vertical Bloch-line memory architecture, and such 
could have given them a lot more life, at least.  But, when 
IBM pulled out of the advanced research on it, development 
just stalled.

Jon

From spacewar at gmail.com  Fri Feb 23 12:11:16 2018
From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 11:11:16 -0700
Subject: WTB Intel 7110 Bubble Memory Subsystem or Chipset
In-Reply-To: <5A904E2B.8060606@pico-systems.com>
References: <B4DA7BFF-170C-46AB-850A-2F1365C1F378@nf6x.net>
 <1e7132d7-6d20-ab59-e974-ef7bdfe78aa7@gmail.com>
 <MWHPR14MB1600C7DF2ADF8175D443890BA3CC0@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAA-F0u8U7CsBaj_J+UUpAtSMnKqLsD5GetkPpi-JPKN-QPWFqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5A904E2B.8060606@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <CAFrGgTSHLin1rEVLGsMyG0+WFEkCZimMXniFws3gYX-gBueEiA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 10:23 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> The original bubble memories were sort of dead end, but applying more
> advanced semiconductor lithography to them, going to vertical Bloch-line
> memory architecture, and such could have given them a lot more life, at
> least.  But, when IBM pulled out of the advanced research on it,
> development just stalled


I don't know what "vertical Block line memory architecture" is, but more
advanced lithography wasn't sufficient, because the size of useful magnetic
domains couldn't be scaled down much smaller than what was used in the
4Mbit devices, no matter how fine your lithography was. The lithography was
not the limiting factor. That's why Intel spun off their magnetics division
to continue manufacture and sales of what they recognized as a dead-end
product line.  It was still viable for some years as a niche product in
applications where the requirement for physical robustness was far more
important than either density or price.

From rick at rickmurphy.net  Fri Feb 23 15:49:06 2018
From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 16:49:06 -0500
Subject: SimH DECtape vs. Tops-10 [was RE: Writing emulators [Was: Re: VCF
 PNW 2018: Pictures!]]
In-Reply-To: <7CD61E89-24C2-4EEB-8B76-E6D428394DC5@comcast.net>
References: <3fb939928e414f54ac79070102a9822b@livingcomputers.org>
 <7CD61E89-24C2-4EEB-8B76-E6D428394DC5@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <aee3a9cb-0537-d21a-870f-2e6eda5b884c@rickmurphy.net>

On 2/21/2018 5:14 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
> Ok, then it could be for VMS, which also does this (via Andy's unsupported driver).  I don't know of PDP-11 or other minicomputer systems that do DECtape overlapped seek.  I suppose it could be for artistic verisimilitude...

TSS/8. It was a wonderful thing to witness. Start the drive spinning, 
deselect it, go start up another, then reselect the first one as it 
approached the right part of the tape.
 ??? -Rick


From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Fri Feb 23 21:42:50 2018
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 21:42:50 -0600
Subject: Honeywell DDP-516 console on Ebay - PLEASE don't bid!
In-Reply-To: <06c1cb83-bed3-68e6-397c-991a2e1b3113@bitsavers.org>
References: <33d681a1-91c6-cedf-6100-484d3f0f4324@hachti.de>
 <161bf069f5a-669-583a@webjas-vaa198.srv.aolmail.net>
 <CABGJBucpyhHeox-ZHSpPrg5jwxTrN8seRt3U8FRACpGC-A9ESg@mail.gmail.com>
 <49a3d5f0-3db2-1e6e-c2ef-7b3ae4184ef7@hachti.de>
 <06c1cb83-bed3-68e6-397c-991a2e1b3113@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs23w=QhyOHM4XxWoafY64Hrvh8+SyMNDuCZJ7Ud_5QXCzA@mail.gmail.com>

so did u get it?

On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 10:25 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
>
> On 2/23/18 6:22 AM, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk wrote:
>
> > With the stripped keyboard one can build something underneath to replace
> the original terminal as well.
>
>
> Too bad that isn't what keyboard collectors do with them.
>
> It is good to hear that if a Lisp Machine keyboard gets in the hands of
> someone who appreciates
> them for what they are that they get attached to an emulator and aren't
> raped to be a L33T D00D's
> gaming PC keyboard.
>
>
>
>

From pete at petelancashire.com  Sat Feb 24 13:09:24 2018
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 11:09:24 -0800
Subject: Suggestions for 16 mm movies to digital conversion
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u-y3A4H3uaPBtYevZa2VDwUHSGPHrg4bOKrhkc3UXwCKg@mail.gmail.com>

I have a small, 5-20 stack of 16 mm's of movies dealing with computers

The one in front of me is

"Once Upon a Punched Card"

I am looking for a place in the USA with a reasonable price to have them
digitized and I will place them on both my Google drive and a Youtube

So far I have only been able to find places I can not afford.

Suggestions, Ideas, etc ?

-pete

From pete at petelancashire.com  Sat Feb 24 13:10:16 2018
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 11:10:16 -0800
Subject: Suggestions for 16 mm movies to digital conversion
In-Reply-To: <CAA-F0u-y3A4H3uaPBtYevZa2VDwUHSGPHrg4bOKrhkc3UXwCKg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA-F0u-y3A4H3uaPBtYevZa2VDwUHSGPHrg4bOKrhkc3UXwCKg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u9ynL_5TVeA-HDzPBG97s4kRrCRNRACMPMwOrRr-h_w9g@mail.gmail.com>

I forgot, once done the physical media will be donated

-pete

On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 11:09 AM, Pete Lancashire <pete at petelancashire.com>
wrote:

> I have a small, 5-20 stack of 16 mm's of movies dealing with computers
>
> The one in front of me is
>
> "Once Upon a Punched Card"
>
> I am looking for a place in the USA with a reasonable price to have them
> digitized and I will place them on both my Google drive and a Youtube
>
> So far I have only been able to find places I can not afford.
>
> Suggestions, Ideas, etc ?
>
> -pete
>
>
>

From couryhouse at aol.com  Sat Feb 24 13:24:00 2018
From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 14:24:00 -0500
Subject: Suggestions for 16 mm movies to digital conversion
In-Reply-To: <CAA-F0u9ynL_5TVeA-HDzPBG97s4kRrCRNRACMPMwOrRr-h_w9g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <161c945a462-5515-15b21@webjas-vac129.srv.aolmail.net>

Pete - ?2 factors of ?course need ?to be addressed.... ?cost and ?quality
?
when it ?comes ?to quality ?there are ? some ?transfer machines that save each ?frame ?HD as a still then re-assemble?as a ?video... but the converted still frames ?yield??some ?nice ?still photos ?for other purposes... ?Ed# ?www.smecc.org?
?
?
In a message dated 2/24/2018 12:10:22 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:

?
 I forgot, once done the physical media will be donated

-pete

On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 11:09 AM, Pete Lancashire <pete at petelancashire.com>
wrote:

> I have a small, 5-20 stack of 16 mm's of movies dealing with computers
>
> The one in front of me is
>
> "Once Upon a Punched Card"
>
> I am looking for a place in the USA with a reasonable price to have them
> digitized and I will place them on both my Google drive and a Youtube
>
> So far I have only been able to find places I can not afford.
>
> Suggestions, Ideas, etc ?
>
> -pete
>
>
>

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sat Feb 24 14:16:23 2018
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 12:16:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Suggestions for 16 mm movies to digital conversion
In-Reply-To: <CAA-F0u-y3A4H3uaPBtYevZa2VDwUHSGPHrg4bOKrhkc3UXwCKg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA-F0u-y3A4H3uaPBtYevZa2VDwUHSGPHrg4bOKrhkc3UXwCKg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802241130590.24803@shell.lmi.net>

On Sat, 24 Feb 2018, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote:
> I have a small, 5-20 stack of 16 mm's of movies dealing with computers
> The one in front of me is
> "Once Upon a Punched Card"
> I am looking for a place in the USA with a reasonable price to have them
> digitized and I will place them on both my Google drive and a Youtube
> So far I have only been able to find places I can not afford.
> Suggestions, Ideas, etc ?

Digital telecine

If you don't need high quality, how much does Costco charge for their 
"home movies" conversions?

'Course, if you want the best, you'd have to pay the prices for Monaco 
Labs and Leo Diner Films. 
https://www.cinesite.com/ ?

If you want to make your own digital Telecine hardware, . . . 
In college, instead of the usual aiming a camera at the screen 
(kinescope), I put extension tubes behind the lens on a C-mount video 
camera (an added extension equal to the focal length of the lens will move 
the focus from infinity to twice the focal length at 1:1) and shoved it 
into the projector, in place of the projection lens.  In those days, the 
difference in frame-rate was the biggest problem (16(silent),18(super 
8),24(sound)   V  30/60,35/50); bizarre frame-skipping, frame doubling 
algorithms were developed that don't need to be necessary for MP4.
You would probably want to go into the projector to add a switch to give 
continuity on a wire timed to the film-gate, to single shot the camera 
for digitizing, . . .

This guy was working on doing it with flat-bed scanner??
http://www.truetex.com/telecine.htm

From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com  Sat Feb 24 14:23:14 2018
From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 15:23:14 -0500
Subject: Suggestions for 16 mm movies to digital conversion
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802241130590.24803@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CAA-F0u-y3A4H3uaPBtYevZa2VDwUHSGPHrg4bOKrhkc3UXwCKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802241130590.24803@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CAJ2mpAi7u2A5MQKcKoHx+zi2R=mhecMr=n-8ai1KS0rrBOhHeQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Pete,

I can't speak to 16mm film transfer but www.digmypics.com did a fine job
for me on a huge assortment of print photos and VHS tapes.

=]

--
Anders Nelson

+1 (517) 775-6129

www.erogear.com

On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 3:16 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Sat, 24 Feb 2018, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote:
>
>> I have a small, 5-20 stack of 16 mm's of movies dealing with computers
>> The one in front of me is
>> "Once Upon a Punched Card"
>> I am looking for a place in the USA with a reasonable price to have them
>> digitized and I will place them on both my Google drive and a Youtube
>> So far I have only been able to find places I can not afford.
>> Suggestions, Ideas, etc ?
>>
>
> Digital telecine
>
> If you don't need high quality, how much does Costco charge for their
> "home movies" conversions?
>
> 'Course, if you want the best, you'd have to pay the prices for Monaco
> Labs and Leo Diner Films. https://www.cinesite.com/ ?
>
> If you want to make your own digital Telecine hardware, . . . In college,
> instead of the usual aiming a camera at the screen (kinescope), I put
> extension tubes behind the lens on a C-mount video camera (an added
> extension equal to the focal length of the lens will move the focus from
> infinity to twice the focal length at 1:1) and shoved it into the
> projector, in place of the projection lens.  In those days, the difference
> in frame-rate was the biggest problem (16(silent),18(super 8),24(sound)
>  V  30/60,35/50); bizarre frame-skipping, frame doubling algorithms were
> developed that don't need to be necessary for MP4.
> You would probably want to go into the projector to add a switch to give
> continuity on a wire timed to the film-gate, to single shot the camera for
> digitizing, . . .
>
> This guy was working on doing it with flat-bed scanner??
> http://www.truetex.com/telecine.htm
>

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sat Feb 24 14:39:12 2018
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 12:39:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Suggestions for 16 mm movies to digital conversion
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802241130590.24803@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CAA-F0u-y3A4H3uaPBtYevZa2VDwUHSGPHrg4bOKrhkc3UXwCKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802241130590.24803@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802241238110.24803@shell.lmi.net>

Update:
cinesite.com is no longer Kodak's digitizing service.

Costco seems to want $0.13 per foot.
But I'm not sure whether they do SOUND.



From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com  Sat Feb 24 14:57:17 2018
From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 14:57:17 -0600
Subject: Suggestions for 16 mm movies to digital conversion
In-Reply-To: <CAA-F0u-y3A4H3uaPBtYevZa2VDwUHSGPHrg4bOKrhkc3UXwCKg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA-F0u-y3A4H3uaPBtYevZa2VDwUHSGPHrg4bOKrhkc3UXwCKg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CEF163E5-B8C9-4D52-934B-FEF556D92DEC@gmail.com>

On Feb 24, 2018, at 1:09 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote:

> I have a small, 5-20 stack of 16 mm's of movies dealing with computers
> 
> The one in front of me is
> 
> "Once Upon a Punched Card"
> 
> I am looking for a place in the USA with a reasonable price to have them
> digitized and I will place them on both my Google drive and a Youtube
> 
> So far I have only been able to find places I can not afford.
> 
> Suggestions, Ideas, etc ?
> 
> -pete


Hey Pete,

Might be worth checking to see if any of your titles have already been digitized. I know Once Upon a Punch Card was loaded to YouTube a number of years ago (could be worth checking with the uploader to see if they have a high quality version available if you'd like a personal copy). Might save having to re-invent the wheel.

I like to pick up the occasional 16mm computer film off eBay for my own use, but I've also converted a couple to digital using the low tech 'camera aimed at screen' method. Actually, it was my iPhone on a tripod running software that allowed for frame rate adjustment AND color shifting to take the red out of the film and boost the faded hues. -Cory

From couryhouse at aol.com  Sat Feb 24 15:35:51 2018
From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 16:35:51 -0500
Subject: Suggestions for 16 mm movies to digital conversion
In-Reply-To: <CEF163E5-B8C9-4D52-934B-FEF556D92DEC@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <161c9be5633-20d4-16ef6@webjas-vad081.srv.aolmail.net>

Cory - works ?best ?with ?a ?projector ?w/ 5 bladed shutter...
hard to ?find at the thrift? store ?alas...
?
I have ?some Honeywell computer?training ?films we need to ?digitize ?someday too..
also have a ?set of ?reels ?for Beginning or the ?End? ?the ?first doc-u-drama about the Manhattan project that was ?dome right after the ?war ?I ?would??like ? shit ?to single ?frames. ?yea it is out ?on DVD?and on TCM sometimes but I want ?sharper stills?of a family member that was in it.
?
We also have ?some of the old BELL system movies but many of those are ?utubed..
?
problem ?with the utubed stuff it ?is ?soft. and lo ?res ?and lousy If ?you want still ? frames ?that look ?great.
?
Ed# ?www.smecc.org?
?
?
In a message dated 2/24/2018 1:54:13 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:

?

Hey Pete,

Might be worth checking to see if any of your titles have already been digitized. I know Once Upon a Punch Card was loaded to YouTube a number of years ago (could be worth checking with the uploader to see if they have a high quality version available if you'd like a personal copy). Might save having to re-invent the wheel.

I like to pick up the occasional 16mm computer film off eBay for my own use, but I've also converted a couple to digital using the low tech 'camera aimed at screen' method. Actually, it was my iPhone on a tripod running software that allowed for frame rate adjustment AND color shifting to take the red out of the film and boost the faded hues. -Cory

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sat Feb 24 15:51:47 2018
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 13:51:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Suggestions for 16 mm movies to digital conversion
In-Reply-To: <161c9be5633-20d4-16ef6@webjas-vad081.srv.aolmail.net>
References: <161c9be5633-20d4-16ef6@webjas-vad081.srv.aolmail.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802241346280.24803@shell.lmi.net>

> Cory - works ?best ?with ?a ?projector ?w/ 5 bladed shutter...
> hard to ?find at the thrift? store ?alas...

Almost totally useless for THIS, I have a couple of Army training film 
viewers to get rid of.  A little screen, with a door to open if you want 
to project.  BUT, the unique part: they have no film gate!  The film flows 
continuously, without jerking, and there is a spinning polyhedronal mirror 
instead.  You can run extremely delicate films, or splice with masking 
tape!   Quality is mediocre, but condition is/was? good.

From ian.finder at gmail.com  Sat Feb 24 16:46:22 2018
From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 14:46:22 -0800
Subject: Searching for Sun2 and Sun3 bits and bobs- a long-running project
 approaches completion!
Message-ID: <5A5A6DBA-6908-45E4-872C-6EF74A2C0F97@gmail.com>

Hi folks,

I recently, on a trip to Oregon, finally got a compatible ECL monitor for my Sun 2. It came with a rather nice Sun 3/260, which I?d like to run as well.

So I thought I?d put out a beg here- I?m so close to finishing this.

I need to shake loose a keyboard and mouse for a Sun 2. 

Would anyone be willing to sell me one? I?m not expecting a handout; they would be paid for and well loved.

On a related note, I?d love to run the 3/260 as well: What I?d like to do for that is hunt down a Sun color framebuffer for it so I can use a more common display. (and of course, enjoy the wonders of color).

I?m not sure what the options there are, but I have a nice scan converter so just about any compatible color framebuffer will do. I can then totally repurpose the monitor I?ve just found for my 2/120.

So, in the words of another immortal list member, ?advice     hints ?????

Thanks in advance,

- I

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Sat Feb 24 18:42:57 2018
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 16:42:57 -0800
Subject: Searching for Sun2 and Sun3 bits and bobs- a long-running project
 approaches completion!
In-Reply-To: <5A5A6DBA-6908-45E4-872C-6EF74A2C0F97@gmail.com>
References: <5A5A6DBA-6908-45E4-872C-6EF74A2C0F97@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwLHFkZvYWKcnDeH3cf1LHh_S+PpDr40N8tROwsUB7GpHw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 2:46 PM, Ian via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> I need to shake loose a keyboard and mouse for a Sun 2.

For non-Sun experts, what is that exactly?

I have a keyboard that looks like this one with a 15-pin D-shell
connector which has the title "Sun-2 keyboard" on this page:
http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/X1550.98B

Looking up the number 370-1095 (full number is 370109556799 on my
keyboard) indicates it is a Type-3 keyboard. The optical mouse plugs
into the back of the keyboard with an RJ type plug.

This keyboard/mouse combo plugs into a Sun 4/110. No idea what other
Sun models it may be compatible with.

From ian.finder at gmail.com  Sat Feb 24 20:57:21 2018
From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 18:57:21 -0800
Subject: Searching for Sun2 and Sun3 bits and bobs- a long-running project
 approaches completion!
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwLHFkZvYWKcnDeH3cf1LHh_S+PpDr40N8tROwsUB7GpHw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5A5A6DBA-6908-45E4-872C-6EF74A2C0F97@gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwLHFkZvYWKcnDeH3cf1LHh_S+PpDr40N8tROwsUB7GpHw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EB5F63C6-97A8-40AA-9C47-4E5E57AF6382@gmail.com>

Glen, thanks for the response.

The keyboard I?m looking for which I need for the 2/120 looks like this: 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/alanc/4013376694/in/photostream

Part #: 540-1006-01

It terminates with a registered jack and not a d-sub. 

Perhaps maybe some late mode Sun2s used the one you pointed at... I have one for the Sun3. I?m not sure.

I also know the mouse for the Sun2/120 looks like the one for the 3, but is in black and again terminated with a registered jack that connects to the CPU directly, and not via the keyboard as on the keyboard you posted.

I?m sure somewhere, some rotten keyboard collector is using the keyboard I need with their Dell PC because the keys click with some vaguely unique hysteresis curve or something...

Thanks,

- I




Sent from my toaster oven.

> On Feb 24, 2018, at 16:42, Glen Slick via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
>> On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 2:46 PM, Ian via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> 
>> I need to shake loose a keyboard and mouse for a Sun 2.
> 
> For non-Sun experts, what is that exactly?
> 
> I have a keyboard that looks like this one with a 15-pin D-shell
> connector which has the title "Sun-2 keyboard" on this page:
> http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/X1550.98B
> 
> Looking up the number 370-1095 (full number is 370109556799 on my
> keyboard) indicates it is a Type-3 keyboard. The optical mouse plugs
> into the back of the keyboard with an RJ type plug.
> 
> This keyboard/mouse combo plugs into a Sun 4/110. No idea what other
> Sun models it may be compatible with.

From fmc at reanimators.org  Sun Feb 25 01:15:24 2018
From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 23:15:24 -0800
Subject: Searching for Sun2 and Sun3 bits and bobs- a long-running project
 approaches completion!
In-Reply-To: <EB5F63C6-97A8-40AA-9C47-4E5E57AF6382@gmail.com>
References: <5A5A6DBA-6908-45E4-872C-6EF74A2C0F97@gmail.com>
 <CAM2UOwLHFkZvYWKcnDeH3cf1LHh_S+PpDr40N8tROwsUB7GpHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <EB5F63C6-97A8-40AA-9C47-4E5E57AF6382@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8C6A18C5-BA6D-4BE4-B31C-063B954726AD@reanimators.org>

On Feb 24, 2018, at 18:57, Ian wrote:
> 
> Glen, thanks for the response.
> 
> The keyboard I?m looking for which I need for the 2/120 looks like this: 
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/alanc/4013376694/in/photostream

That is a Sun Type 2 keyboard.

> Part #: 540-1006-01
> 
> It terminates with a registered jack and not a d-sub. 
> 
> Perhaps maybe some late mode Sun2s used the one you pointed at... I have one for the Sun3. I?m not sure.
> 
> I also know the mouse for the Sun2/120 looks like the one for the 3, but is in black and again terminated with a registered jack that connects to the CPU directly, and not via the keyboard as on the keyboard you posted.

The Sun 2/120 had the two RJ connectors for keyboard and mouse and the Type 2 Keyboard and Type 2 Mouse (which you correctly describe) fit them.

I am thinking that there was a passive adapter box that went between the 15-pin D connector on later Suns and the two RJ connectors.  Maybe for the Sun 2/50.  It also allowed one to use the Type 2 keyboard and mouse on the Sun 3/60 (and probably other models too).

Type 2 and Type 3 are electrically the same, the big differences are the connectors and that the Type 3 keyboard is where the mouse signals are split out.

> I?m sure somewhere, some rotten keyboard collector is using the keyboard I need with their Dell PC because the keys click with some vaguely unique hysteresis curve or something?

I remember preferring the Type 2 keyboard to the Type 3 keyboard, and for a while using a Type 2 keyboard and mouse with a Sun 3/60 through one of the passive adaptor boxes.  I do not recall why I preferred the Type 2 keyboard.

And the keyboard collectors want "decent mechanical switches".

<https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=12506.0>

And look at this page, and the 12th picture, for another Type 2 keyboard:

<http://www.9999hp.net/botnet/>

I have to wonder whether that is a sort of thing the keyboard collectors get up to.

-Frank McConnell


From aek at bitsavers.org  Sun Feb 25 12:33:58 2018
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 10:33:58 -0800
Subject: IBM Rigid Cleaning Tool 2200574
Message-ID: <56766cc6-06a8-bec0-e9da-642a5046e641@bitsavers.org>

https://www.ebay.com/itm/232678490872

anyone run across a volume source for these?

They appear to be IBM's version of the Texsleeve



From david4602 at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 13:48:54 2018
From: david4602 at gmail.com (David Schmidt)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 14:48:54 -0500
Subject: Panasonic Electronic Filing System - document scanner storage on MO
 disks
Message-ID: <47532ffd-bf8e-6ced-a610-679c7d10b66e@gmail.com>

Hello, all -

Has anyone run across the subject system - a mid-90s Motorola '030-based 
document scanner/retrieval system?  KV-F520 seems to be a model of the 
unit, along with LF-7300A or LF-7304 5-1/4" MO drives.  I have a hold of 
some media that I can read, and can see the moral equivalent of files in 
Panasonic's own format - I suspect it's thinly veiled TIFF or maybe a 
capture format of their own making.  Has anyone else run across this before?

- David

From cctalk at snarc.net  Thu Feb 22 14:36:08 2018
From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 15:36:08 -0500
Subject: Why don't you respect the mail threads?!
In-Reply-To: <20180222202655.GA31642@tau1.ceti.pl>
References: <20180221225056.6786418C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20180222202655.GA31642@tau1.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <105acbf1-7356-5618-9486-505adb6107f1@snarc.net>

It's gone meta: people threadjacking a thread about threadjacking. Now 
it's some posters trying to show others who is smartest about arcane 
details of obsolete email software.

From osi.superboard at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 15:56:01 2018
From: osi.superboard at gmail.com (osi.superboard at gmail.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 21:56:01 +0000
Subject: Canon BX-1 (1977) Manuals
Message-ID: <5a8f3c71.c7ae1c0a.195bd.2fde@mx.google.com>

Recently, I?ve started working on a Canon BX-1 machine dated 1977.
It was CANON's first standalone business / home computer featuring I guess the Motorola MC6809 CPU, one line of gas plasma display a thermal printer and 125k floppy drive.
See pictures here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1rT4qwtiR68AN5DRqoCwjxGDJvRRdlHha

In working condition but without manuals or disks. Only little can be found for this machine, its not listed in http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ nor https://amaus.net/static/S100/
Also http://archive.computerhistory.org/ isn't mentioning the machine.

So I would be happy, if anyone can help in disk images or manual scans (manual front pages are shown in the picture link above)
regards Thomas

Known CANON BX-1 Disk/Documents
Disks:
MCX OPERATING SYS. STANDARD BASIC AND BOOT 
MCX SYSTEM DISK
MCX EXTEND BASIC BOOT. PROGRAM, GL SYSTEM, TM_P CALC, FORCE FORM

Manuals:
CANON BX-1 INSTRUCTIONS
CANON THE INSTRUCTION TO THE BX-1
CANON EASY PROGRAMMING PART I
CANON EASY PROGRAMMING PART II
CANON OPERATION MANAUL AND EXPLANATION OF INSTRUCTIONS


From allisonportable at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 16:52:36 2018
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 17:52:36 -0500
Subject: Maxtor full-height 5.25" drives of death
In-Reply-To: <24bff003-9bd5-dc6c-3b6d-1efaf594ee87@gmx.de>
References: <5A7DE2EF.60904@cimmeri.com>
 <24bff003-9bd5-dc6c-3b6d-1efaf594ee87@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <1143fcad-1e03-0c06-4078-6072806c40ec@gmail.com>

On 02/22/2018 07:45 AM, Ulrich Tagge via cctech wrote:
> /Here is my list. 6x RD54 (Maxtor XT2190) >2x OK, 2x Media Error, 1x
> Actuator Issue, 1x Head issue 3x RD53 (Micropolis 1325) >2x Actuator
> issue, 1x actuator issue followed by spinning issue (speed sensor?)
1325s with head stuck will normally spin down.? If the head does not
position there is no servo
so the motor control shuts the show down.? The fix is pop the cover and
remove the offending goo that
was the bead bumper stop.

Allison

> 4x Seagate ST251 >4x OK 3x Seagete ST225 >3x OK 3x IBM Type 068 >3x
> Dead On the 3.5" side I have also many dead drives (<1GB capacity).
> Mostly sticky actuators and dead tantalum caps, but by now nothing I
> was not able to repair. Many Greetings Ulrich /
>>>
>>> A tangential question out of curiosity: who here has 5.25" MFM
>>> drives they're extremely surprised are still working, and which
>>> model(s)?
>>> ...
>>>
>>> - John
>
>


From geoffr at zipcon.net  Thu Feb 22 17:07:25 2018
From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 15:07:25 -0800
Subject: Maxtor full-height 5.25" drives of death
In-Reply-To: <1143fcad-1e03-0c06-4078-6072806c40ec@gmail.com>
References: <5A7DE2EF.60904@cimmeri.com>
 <24bff003-9bd5-dc6c-3b6d-1efaf594ee87@gmx.de>
 <1143fcad-1e03-0c06-4078-6072806c40ec@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D6B48CA8.58A90%geoffr@zipcon.net>


>>>> A tangential question out of curiosity: who here has 5.25" MFM
>>>> drives they're extremely surprised are still working, and which
>>>> model(s)?
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> - John

I?m always surprised when I get my hands on an old st238 and it still
works, the amplifiers were run out of spec on most of them with no heat
sinking so they tend to burn up and damage the PCB
\



From kurt at hamm.me  Fri Feb 23 07:10:49 2018
From: kurt at hamm.me (Kurt Hamm)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 08:10:49 -0500
Subject: DEC Pro 350
Message-ID: <CAJRDvfWc=KitTnUTt7yWSN9Zf3xX6F3dxV1cGY3toefhib5=aQ@mail.gmail.com>

Well, I bought that DEC Pro 350 on ebay.  It initially booted up and I got
the error screen.  The error code I found on the Internet was related to
the hard disk controller.  So, I thought I just needed someone to sell/give
me some systems disks for the unit and I could try to setup the drive again
if it still functioned.

Then, it after a couple of restarts (I re-seated the boards and cleaned the
connectors) it stopped showing the error screen (with picture of the
computer).  All the diagnostic lights are red on the back and nothing ever
shows on the screen.  The power comes on and then nothing.

If anyone has any thoughts, I would appreciate it.  I knew the history of
this type of computer and figured it was a long shot.  I am just
disappointed to have gotten really nowhere with it.

Thanks!

Kurt

From lproven at gmail.com  Fri Feb 23 09:44:09 2018
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 16:44:09 +0100
Subject: Canon BX-1 (1977) Manuals
In-Reply-To: <5a8f3c71.c7ae1c0a.195bd.2fde@mx.google.com>
References: <5a8f3c71.c7ae1c0a.195bd.2fde@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGghmX-wqhn06BrUU72AUTe=kDndovTfmbzq6tNEhRqng@mail.gmail.com>

On 22 February 2018 at 22:56, Thomas B via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> Recently, I?ve started working on a Canon BX-1 machine dated 1977.

Some info in French:

http://mo5.com/musee-machines-bx1.html

Might be worth asking them...?


-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From pbirkel at gmail.com  Fri Feb 23 11:45:15 2018
From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 12:45:15 -0500
Subject: ARPANET Reaches the Royal Signals and Radar Establishment (RSRE,
 Malvern)
Message-ID: <026801d3acce$1088af30$319a0d90$@gmail.com>

The following extract comes from a History of Programming Languages (HOPL)
retrospective on the development of the Ada programming language written by
the individual who was the government lead at DARPA for much of the time of
its development (Colonel William A. Whitaker).  I found it humorous.
Perhaps you will too.

 

-----

The ARPANET connection was inaugurated during a visit to RSRE by Her Royal
Highness Queen Elizabeth II.  Her Majesty sent a message of greetings to the
members of the HOLWG from her net account, EIIR, by pressing a red velvet
Royal carriage return.  Because the address list was long, it took about 45
seconds for the confirmation to come back, 45 seconds of dead air.  Prince
Philip remarked, joking respectfully, that it looked like she broke it.

-----

 

I suspect that we've "all been there" at one time or another!

paul

 


From ed at groenenberg.net  Sat Feb 24 07:30:54 2018
From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 14:30:54 +0100 (CET)
Subject: ibm panel
Message-ID: <42040.10.10.10.2.1519479054.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net>


So, all this talk about panels made me making an oak frame for an
IBM panel I had lingering around in the attic for a while.

Still need to make a back panel to close it tough.

http://bit.ly/2HI2cHC

The cables were already cut when I got it.

Ed
--
Ik email, dus ik besta.




From tregare at gmail.com  Sun Feb 25 04:41:52 2018
From: tregare at gmail.com (Geoffrey Reed)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 02:41:52 -0800
Subject: Searching for Sun2 and Sun3 bits and bobs- a long-running project
 approaches completion!
In-Reply-To: <5A5A6DBA-6908-45E4-872C-6EF74A2C0F97@gmail.com>
References: <5A5A6DBA-6908-45E4-872C-6EF74A2C0F97@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D6B7D097.58D78%geoffr@zipcon.net>



On 2/24/18, 2:46 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Ian via cctalk"
<cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org on behalf of cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>Hi folks,
>
>I recently, on a trip to Oregon, finally got a compatible ECL monitor for
>my Sun 2. It came with a rather nice Sun 3/260, which I?d like to run as
>well.
>
>So I thought I?d put out a beg here- I?m so close to finishing this.
>
>I need to shake loose a keyboard and mouse for a Sun 2.
>
>Would anyone be willing to sell me one? I?m not expecting a handout; they
>would be paid for and well loved.
>
>On a related note, I?d love to run the 3/260 as well: What I?d like to do
>for that is hunt down a Sun color framebuffer for it so I can use a more
>common display. (and of course, enjoy the wonders of color).
>
>I?m not sure what the options there are, but I have a nice scan converter
>so just about any compatible color framebuffer will do. I can then
>totally repurpose the monitor I?ve just found for my 2/120.
>
>So, in the words of another immortal list member, ?advice     hints ?????
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>- I


id recommend either a CGtwo-VME 501-1014 or the 3rd party matrox vme for
the sun 3 series.



From billdegnan at gmail.com  Sun Feb 25 13:42:00 2018
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 14:42:00 -0500
Subject: DEC Pro 350
In-Reply-To: <CAJRDvfWc=KitTnUTt7yWSN9Zf3xX6F3dxV1cGY3toefhib5=aQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJRDvfWc=KitTnUTt7yWSN9Zf3xX6F3dxV1cGY3toefhib5=aQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBue6_GVc6af_vXh8kWVRjgML-yujiZD6mY4RHBkjRDTn-Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 8:10 AM, Kurt Hamm via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org
> wrote:

> Well, I bought that DEC Pro 350 on ebay.  It initially booted up and I got
> the error screen.  The error code I found on the Internet was related to
> the hard disk controller.  So, I thought I just needed someone to sell/give
> me some systems disks for the unit and I could try to setup the drive again
> if it still functioned.
>
> Then, it after a couple of restarts (I re-seated the boards and cleaned the
> connectors) it stopped showing the error screen (with picture of the
> computer).  All the diagnostic lights are red on the back and nothing ever
> shows on the screen.  The power comes on and then nothing.
>
> If anyone has any thoughts, I would appreciate it.  I knew the history of
> this type of computer and figured it was a long shot.  I am just
> disappointed to have gotten really nowhere with it.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Kurt
>

Kurt,
Sounds like you can't do much of anything but to confirm my understanding...
Can you enter terminal mode?
Can you boot from a diskette?

How confident are you in the power supply?  Have you checked all of the
voltage rails?

Bill

From mattislind at gmail.com  Sun Feb 25 14:17:47 2018
From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 21:17:47 +0100
Subject: DEC Pro 350
In-Reply-To: <CAJRDvfWc=KitTnUTt7yWSN9Zf3xX6F3dxV1cGY3toefhib5=aQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJRDvfWc=KitTnUTt7yWSN9Zf3xX6F3dxV1cGY3toefhib5=aQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABr82SJaGk_irwN6KX3vJx60SC-U9+h=waerxMmv8Ubhm1TwAA@mail.gmail.com>

fredag 23 februari 2018 skrev Kurt Hamm via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>:

> Well, I bought that DEC Pro 350 on ebay.  It initially booted up and I got
> the error screen.  The error code I found on the Internet was related to
> the hard disk controller.  So, I thought I just needed someone to sell/give
> me some systems disks for the unit and I could try to setup the drive again
> if it still functioned.
>
> Then, it after a couple of restarts (I re-seated the boards and cleaned the
> connectors) it stopped showing the error screen (with picture of the
> computer).  All the diagnostic lights are red on the back and nothing ever
> shows on the screen.  The power comes on and then nothing.


The tech manual is :
http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/pdp11/pro3xx/EK-PC350-TM-001_Professional_300_Series_Technical_Manual_Dec82.pdf

In case you haven't already found it.

All LED on means sytem module failed. (Page 5-33). Have you checked power
supply voltages? I would try to remove all option boards and see if that
makes any difference. The printer port is actually a console port. The
details is in the manual (page 5-126 and 5-131). I suspect that all leds
come on if it fails to run the rom based diagnostic. It might have halted
to uODT in case you could try use the console to see if you could diagnose
the problem.




> If anyone has any thoughts, I would appreciate it.  I knew the history of
> this type of computer and figured it was a long shot.  I am just
> disappointed to have gotten really nowhere with it.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Kurt
>

Good luck!

/Mattis

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Sun Feb 25 18:51:25 2018
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 19:51:25 -0500
Subject: What is vintage (was: Why don't you respect the mail threads?!)
Message-ID: <CABGJBud+w_BUy4HSfJ-0chRmL3PU=nKNqB5Onu3oqdo_D02bUA@mail.gmail.com>

What is vintage computing?

I think it's the IBM PC.  Anything else is not vintage computing.

 b

On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 3:36 PM, Evan Koblentz via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> It's gone meta: people threadjacking a thread about threadjacking. Now
> it's some posters trying to show others who is smartest about arcane
> details of obsolete email software.
>

From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com  Sun Feb 25 19:22:39 2018
From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 17:22:39 -0800
Subject: ibm panel
In-Reply-To: <42040.10.10.10.2.1519479054.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net>
References: <42040.10.10.10.2.1519479054.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net>
Message-ID: <FE2A37FB-F3AD-4185-AC60-A77B03606B33@gmail.com>

Pretty!

Marc

 

From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of "cctalk at classiccmp.org" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Reply-To: <ed at groenenberg.net>, "cctalk at classiccmp.org" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Date: Saturday, February 24, 2018 at 5:30 AM
To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: ibm panel

 

 

So, all this talk about panels made me making an oak frame for an

IBM panel I had lingering around in the attic for a while.

 

Still need to make a back panel to close it tough.

 

http://bit.ly/2HI2cHC

 

The cables were already cut when I got it.

 

Ed

--

Ik email, dus ik besta.

 

 

 

 


From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net  Sun Feb 25 19:50:58 2018
From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 20:50:58 -0500
Subject: PDP11/03 BA-11M Front panel switch replacement
Message-ID: <bad166e4-b903-ee8d-c35b-2ca3517aa802@comcast.net>

I have a BA11-M box with the usual front panel control, however it was 
damaged and all three switches have been sheared off.? The LED's and the 
circuit card that connects to the power supply appear to be OK.? I would 
like to repair it and put it back into service.? Is there a replacement 
for those switches?

Doug


From pete at petelancashire.com  Sun Feb 25 19:56:00 2018
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 17:56:00 -0800
Subject: ibm panel
In-Reply-To: <42040.10.10.10.2.1519479054.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net>
References: <42040.10.10.10.2.1519479054.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net>
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u-1y+KaiT8cZyzO21MAjzAYXWWMkGfQwTthHdAF_=mM+Q@mail.gmail.com>

Well done, tasteful.

I was very lucky with who ever scrapped that 360/50 and took the hinge and
frame along with the panel.

One then can anchor the frame to the studs or something and not have to
worry about how the heck one
is going to hang a 75 lb or whatever panel to the wall.

-pete

On Sat, Feb 24, 2018 at 5:30 AM, E. Groenenberg via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> So, all this talk about panels made me making an oak frame for an
> IBM panel I had lingering around in the attic for a while.
>
> Still need to make a back panel to close it tough.
>
> http://bit.ly/2HI2cHC
>
> The cables were already cut when I got it.
>
> Ed
> --
> Ik email, dus ik besta.
>
>
>
>
>

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Feb 25 20:06:33 2018
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 18:06:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: What is vintage (was: Why don't you respect the mail threads?!)
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBud+w_BUy4HSfJ-0chRmL3PU=nKNqB5Onu3oqdo_D02bUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBud+w_BUy4HSfJ-0chRmL3PU=nKNqB5Onu3oqdo_D02bUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802251803490.30886@shell.lmi.net>

On Sun, 25 Feb 2018, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
> What is vintage computing?
> I think it's the IBM PC.  Anything else is not vintage computing.

Frankly, I'm shocked.

I could have understood, if you were to have chosen Atari, Superbrain, 
Commodore 64, or Coleco Adam.  Anything other than those, . . .

From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Sun Feb 25 20:35:44 2018
From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 19:35:44 -0700
Subject: What is vintage (was: Why don't you respect the mail threads?!)
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBud+w_BUy4HSfJ-0chRmL3PU=nKNqB5Onu3oqdo_D02bUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBud+w_BUy4HSfJ-0chRmL3PU=nKNqB5Onu3oqdo_D02bUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <34c5d52e-9a49-02c8-3f08-4edc80d6d7d1@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 02/25/2018 05:51 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
> What is vintage computing?

I think the Department of Motor Vehicle of my home state considers any 
cars over 25 years old to be historic ~> vintage.

Does something like that count?



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

From allisonportable at gmail.com  Sun Feb 25 20:59:18 2018
From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 21:59:18 -0500
Subject: What is vintage
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802251803490.30886@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CABGJBud+w_BUy4HSfJ-0chRmL3PU=nKNqB5Onu3oqdo_D02bUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802251803490.30886@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <c8c24bda-78fa-9208-e39f-7e9198eee5bc@gmail.com>

On 02/25/2018 09:06 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Feb 2018, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
>> What is vintage computing?
>> I think it's the IBM PC.? Anything else is not vintage computing.
>
> Frankly, I'm shocked.
>
> I could have understood, if you were to have chosen Atari, Superbrain,
> Commodore 64, or Coleco Adam.? Anything other than those, . . .
Fred,

?Just wow!??

Set reaction$mode=sarcasm/troll

Does he mean my 1973 PDP-8f, or maybe the Altair, TRS80, or my LSI-11/03
is not?
?Heck I don't even keep PCs as collectible, oops I do have a random
Ratshack HX1000.

Seriously?


Allison



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Feb 25 21:03:53 2018
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 19:03:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: What is vintage (was: Why don't you respect the mail threads?!)
In-Reply-To: <34c5d52e-9a49-02c8-3f08-4edc80d6d7d1@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <CABGJBud+w_BUy4HSfJ-0chRmL3PU=nKNqB5Onu3oqdo_D02bUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <34c5d52e-9a49-02c8-3f08-4edc80d6d7d1@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802251847040.30886@shell.lmi.net>

>> What is vintage computing?

On Sun, 25 Feb 2018, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> I think the Department of Motor Vehicle of my home state considers any cars 
> over 25 years old to be historic ~> vintage.

Which aspects do you consider the DMV to be competent in?

Is a 1983 car really "historic ~> vintage"??
I can't tell them apart since the 1970s!
Yes, I can tell the difference between the bumpers of 1973 Honda V 1974, 
but only because i was working on them.
In the 1960s, there were some more interesting cars: The Honda S800 (not 
imported to USA) was a 2 seater sports car that was a poor man'd 
Ferrari - a design exercise that got out of hand and went into 
production, with dual OHC, roller bearing, (even distributor shaft), 9.5K 
(conservatively) redline.
Meanwhile, the Toyota 800 was a very similar body with barely more than a 
lawn mower engine.   When competing, the question was whether the race 
would be long enough to be decided by speed or DNF.


> Does something like that count?

NO!

long time ago, some claimed that the definition for this list (a claim 
rejected by list management) was "ten years".

Today, I might agree with 27 years, but next year I would want an 
increment.

Although I consider PC to be fun, I'm not sure that I could agree with 
calling it "vintage".



If John Titor is around, I will supply a 5100 (APL AND BASIC) and a good 
investment portfolio in exchange for ONE-WAY back 55 years.  Payment 
arranged after arrival.   I'll take the long way part-way home.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From doug at doughq.com  Sun Feb 25 21:06:27 2018
From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 14:06:27 +1100
Subject: What is vintage
In-Reply-To: <c8c24bda-78fa-9208-e39f-7e9198eee5bc@gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBud+w_BUy4HSfJ-0chRmL3PU=nKNqB5Onu3oqdo_D02bUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802251803490.30886@shell.lmi.net>
 <c8c24bda-78fa-9208-e39f-7e9198eee5bc@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM_9E611oLdQEVfAkwpBwajYkQOLn+=g6wB3+Acim+vw2mJVGw@mail.gmail.com>

I know it has been discussed a billion times before...

My personal measure has nothing to do with the 20 year rule - I use the
introduction of the PC as the end of the Vintage era.  IBM made the
computing industry standard and boring.

Anything pre - 1982 is interesting, anything post 1982 is a boat anchor...
(Duck)

Doug


Doug Jackson
VK1ZDJ


On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 1:59 PM, allison via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:

> On 02/25/2018 09:06 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> > On Sun, 25 Feb 2018, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
> >> What is vintage computing?
> >> I think it's the IBM PC.  Anything else is not vintage computing.
> >
> > Frankly, I'm shocked.
> >
> > I could have understood, if you were to have chosen Atari, Superbrain,
> > Commodore 64, or Coleco Adam.  Anything other than those, . . .
> Fred,
>
>  Just wow!
>
> Set reaction$mode=sarcasm/troll
>
> Does he mean my 1973 PDP-8f, or maybe the Altair, TRS80, or my LSI-11/03
> is not?
>  Heck I don't even keep PCs as collectible, oops I do have a random
> Ratshack HX1000.
>
> Seriously?
>
>
> Allison
>
>
>

From useddec at gmail.com  Sun Feb 25 21:07:25 2018
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 21:07:25 -0600
Subject: PDP11/03 BA-11M Front panel switch replacement
In-Reply-To: <bad166e4-b903-ee8d-c35b-2ca3517aa802@comcast.net>
References: <bad166e4-b903-ee8d-c35b-2ca3517aa802@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuOnjbo04+GocoTz5tT3LU4sELn9Bk=mmHKWDRJnz8jgMQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Doug,

It might be cheaper to get a BA11-N and use them. The BA11-M panels are
very difficult to find,

Paul

On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 7:50 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I have a BA11-M box with the usual front panel control, however it was
> damaged and all three switches have been sheared off.  The LED's and the
> circuit card that connects to the power supply appear to be OK.  I would
> like to repair it and put it back into service.  Is there a replacement for
> those switches?
>
> Doug
>
>

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Feb 25 21:23:13 2018
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 19:23:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: What is vintage
In-Reply-To: <CAM_9E611oLdQEVfAkwpBwajYkQOLn+=g6wB3+Acim+vw2mJVGw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBud+w_BUy4HSfJ-0chRmL3PU=nKNqB5Onu3oqdo_D02bUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802251803490.30886@shell.lmi.net>
 <c8c24bda-78fa-9208-e39f-7e9198eee5bc@gmail.com>
 <CAM_9E611oLdQEVfAkwpBwajYkQOLn+=g6wB3+Acim+vw2mJVGw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802251920430.30886@shell.lmi.net>

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote:
> I know it has been discussed a billion times before...
> My personal measure has nothing to do with the 20 year rule - I use the
> introduction of the PC as the end of the Vintage era.  IBM made the
> computing industry standard and boring.
> Anything pre - 1982 is interesting, anything post 1982 is a boat anchor...
> (Duck)

I think that the PC/5150
(truly a "danger to itself and others", using another meaning of "5150")
was August 11, 1981.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From elson at pico-systems.com  Sun Feb 25 21:40:46 2018
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 21:40:46 -0600
Subject: PDP11/03 BA-11M Front panel switch replacement
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuOnjbo04+GocoTz5tT3LU4sELn9Bk=mmHKWDRJnz8jgMQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bad166e4-b903-ee8d-c35b-2ca3517aa802@comcast.net>
 <CACwhfuOnjbo04+GocoTz5tT3LU4sELn9Bk=mmHKWDRJnz8jgMQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5A9381BE.6020608@pico-systems.com>

On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 7:50 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk < 
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> I have a BA11-M box with the usual front panel control, however it was
>> damaged and all three switches have been sheared off.  The LED's and the
>> circuit card that connects to the power supply appear to be OK.  I would
>> like to repair it and put it back into service.  Is there a replacement for
>> those switches?
>>
In general, many old switch patterns are still made.  Often, 
they have a manufacturer's name and part # on the body of 
the switch. Some common makes from back then were C&K and Alco.

Jon

From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Feb 25 21:42:02 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 19:42:02 -0800
Subject: What is vintage
In-Reply-To: <c8c24bda-78fa-9208-e39f-7e9198eee5bc@gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBud+w_BUy4HSfJ-0chRmL3PU=nKNqB5Onu3oqdo_D02bUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802251803490.30886@shell.lmi.net>
 <c8c24bda-78fa-9208-e39f-7e9198eee5bc@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <552abf15-0ca6-a1ca-d7d1-4cc6db8593b8@sydex.com>

I thought vintage had to do with wine--and not necessarily old.

e.g. 2006 cabernet sauvignon.

"Vintage computing" occurs when you figure out how many bottles you've
drunk.

--Chuck

From imp at bsdimp.com  Sun Feb 25 21:43:30 2018
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 20:43:30 -0700
Subject: What is vintage
In-Reply-To: <552abf15-0ca6-a1ca-d7d1-4cc6db8593b8@sydex.com>
References: <CABGJBud+w_BUy4HSfJ-0chRmL3PU=nKNqB5Onu3oqdo_D02bUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802251803490.30886@shell.lmi.net>
 <c8c24bda-78fa-9208-e39f-7e9198eee5bc@gmail.com>
 <552abf15-0ca6-a1ca-d7d1-4cc6db8593b8@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfqj_FmnL7LzOjSdQmSxD6n3SHwMD7aNXeoWJ5R=UoWibA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 8:42 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I thought vintage had to do with wine--and not necessarily old.
>
> e.g. 2006 cabernet sauvignon.
>
> "Vintage computing" occurs when you figure out how many bottles you've
> drunk.
>

And here I was thinking it's what you bought on ebay last night after
drinking all those bottle of wine...

Warner

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Feb 25 21:46:44 2018
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 19:46:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: What is vintage
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802251920430.30886@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CABGJBud+w_BUy4HSfJ-0chRmL3PU=nKNqB5Onu3oqdo_D02bUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802251803490.30886@shell.lmi.net>
 <c8c24bda-78fa-9208-e39f-7e9198eee5bc@gmail.com>
 <CAM_9E611oLdQEVfAkwpBwajYkQOLn+=g6wB3+Acim+vw2mJVGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802251920430.30886@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802251937020.30886@shell.lmi.net>

It could be argued that the industry was already going before that.

How many remember
Thinker Toys
Kentucky Fried Computers
Intergalactic Digital research

When the industry lost its sense of humor,
it was the beginning of the end.
THAT was the beginning of the end of "vintage".


Now, of course, the principals are embarrassed, and deny that there was a 
culture clash between DRI and IBM, that the FIRST prototype of a 5.25" 
disk was a bar napkin, etc.


I have in front of me, a 1983 copy of "InvisiCalc"
Why ask "What if. . .?"
When you can ask "Who cares?"
The software is for ANY computer with 5.25" drive,
disunirregardless of disk format!

From healyzh at avanthar.com  Sun Feb 25 21:49:04 2018
From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 19:49:04 -0800
Subject: What is vintage (was: Why don't you respect the mail threads?!)
In-Reply-To: <34c5d52e-9a49-02c8-3f08-4edc80d6d7d1@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <CABGJBud+w_BUy4HSfJ-0chRmL3PU=nKNqB5Onu3oqdo_D02bUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <34c5d52e-9a49-02c8-3f08-4edc80d6d7d1@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <EF135524-BA12-4385-BAFD-11D5B90B3FF6@avanthar.com>


> On Feb 25, 2018, at 6:35 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> On 02/25/2018 05:51 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
>> What is vintage computing?
> 
> I think the Department of Motor Vehicle of my home state considers any cars over 25 years old to be historic ~> vintage.
> 
> Does something like that count?

When the list was formed, it was defined as 20 years.  Of course now, the list itself is over 20 years old.

Zane





From pete at petelancashire.com  Sun Feb 25 22:30:40 2018
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 20:30:40 -0800
Subject: What is vintage
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802251937020.30886@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CABGJBud+w_BUy4HSfJ-0chRmL3PU=nKNqB5Onu3oqdo_D02bUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802251803490.30886@shell.lmi.net>
 <c8c24bda-78fa-9208-e39f-7e9198eee5bc@gmail.com>
 <CAM_9E611oLdQEVfAkwpBwajYkQOLn+=g6wB3+Acim+vw2mJVGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802251920430.30886@shell.lmi.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802251937020.30886@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u-d9POpZsckF5J85B87TSueFo0MYk4=a7oo7=pws8L2pA@mail.gmail.com>

It make me laugh and cry when I see on craigslist "Antique Computer" and it
is a C 64

On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 7:46 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> It could be argued that the industry was already going before that.
>
> How many remember
> Thinker Toys
> Kentucky Fried Computers
> Intergalactic Digital research
>
> When the industry lost its sense of humor,
> it was the beginning of the end.
> THAT was the beginning of the end of "vintage".
>
>
> Now, of course, the principals are embarrassed, and deny that there was a
> culture clash between DRI and IBM, that the FIRST prototype of a 5.25" disk
> was a bar napkin, etc.
>
>
> I have in front of me, a 1983 copy of "InvisiCalc"
> Why ask "What if. . .?"
> When you can ask "Who cares?"
> The software is for ANY computer with 5.25" drive,
> disunirregardless of disk format!
>
>

From healyzh at avanthar.com  Sun Feb 25 22:37:30 2018
From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 20:37:30 -0800
Subject: What is vintage
In-Reply-To: <CAA-F0u-d9POpZsckF5J85B87TSueFo0MYk4=a7oo7=pws8L2pA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBud+w_BUy4HSfJ-0chRmL3PU=nKNqB5Onu3oqdo_D02bUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802251803490.30886@shell.lmi.net>
 <c8c24bda-78fa-9208-e39f-7e9198eee5bc@gmail.com>
 <CAM_9E611oLdQEVfAkwpBwajYkQOLn+=g6wB3+Acim+vw2mJVGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802251920430.30886@shell.lmi.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802251937020.30886@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAA-F0u-d9POpZsckF5J85B87TSueFo0MYk4=a7oo7=pws8L2pA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6F8BEA97-C32E-4370-824C-38E247B42B27@avanthar.com>


> On Feb 25, 2018, at 8:30 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> It make me laugh and cry when I see on craigslist "Antique Computer" and it
> is a C 64

I?ve started seeing toys (mainly action figures) from the 80?s and early 90?s in Antique Shops. :-(

Zane



From derschjo at gmail.com  Sun Feb 25 22:38:37 2018
From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 20:38:37 -0800
Subject: ISO: Tektronix 4404 peripherals
Message-ID: <5b68fbde-7610-539c-2e66-b228a8c151d3@gmail.com>

Hi all --

I'm working on fixing up a Tektronix 4404 workstation (runs 
Smalltalk-80!).? Or rather, I'm trying to collect the needed parts to 
assemble a complete system so that I might fix up said system -- at the 
moment I have only the main CPU unit (but hey, it's a good starting 
point).? I am looking for:

- Keyboard (Tektronix P/N 119-1872-00)

- Mouse (Logitech P7-3F-TX-19-1808-00).? This is likely a standard 
3-button quadrature mouse but if I can find the exact match, so much the 
better...

- Mass Storage (Tektronix model 4944, possibly others?? This is a SCSI 
device containing a hard drive on a SCSI->MFM bridge and 5.25" floppy 
drive on a custom SCSI->floppy interface.)

If anyone happens to have spares or knows anyone who might, please let 
me know.? Thanks as always!

- Josh



From healyzh at avanthar.com  Sun Feb 25 22:47:44 2018
From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 20:47:44 -0800
Subject: IBM Rigid Cleaning Tool 2200574
In-Reply-To: <56766cc6-06a8-bec0-e9da-642a5046e641@bitsavers.org>
References: <56766cc6-06a8-bec0-e9da-642a5046e641@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <62B4CFE8-04DA-4E77-8CD4-A0E3537407EF@avanthar.com>


> On Feb 25, 2018, at 10:33 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/232678490872
> 
> anyone run across a volume source for these?
> 
> They appear to be IBM's version of the Texsleeve


What exactly is it?  It looks like a tongue depressor sewed into a piece of work glove type material.

We always used alcohol pads on any of the 9-Track tape drives I used.

Zane




From pete at petelancashire.com  Sun Feb 25 22:53:06 2018
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 20:53:06 -0800
Subject: ISO: Tektronix 4404 peripherals
In-Reply-To: <5b68fbde-7610-539c-2e66-b228a8c151d3@gmail.com>
References: <5b68fbde-7610-539c-2e66-b228a8c151d3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u8oxT=BMw30SxfaVQ_4BLg6N6bka8iGS_FoMHENsDFiog@mail.gmail.com>

I might have one of the SCSI <-> Floppy boards. They were scrap from when
the 6000 series was canceled. Put you on the list as I clear out

On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 8:38 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Hi all --
>
> I'm working on fixing up a Tektronix 4404 workstation (runs
> Smalltalk-80!).  Or rather, I'm trying to collect the needed parts to
> assemble a complete system so that I might fix up said system -- at the
> moment I have only the main CPU unit (but hey, it's a good starting
> point).  I am looking for:
>
> - Keyboard (Tektronix P/N 119-1872-00)
>
> - Mouse (Logitech P7-3F-TX-19-1808-00).  This is likely a standard
> 3-button quadrature mouse but if I can find the exact match, so much the
> better...
>
> - Mass Storage (Tektronix model 4944, possibly others?  This is a SCSI
> device containing a hard drive on a SCSI->MFM bridge and 5.25" floppy drive
> on a custom SCSI->floppy interface.)
>
> If anyone happens to have spares or knows anyone who might, please let me
> know.  Thanks as always!
>
> - Josh
>
>
>
>

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Feb 25 22:56:28 2018
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 20:56:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: What is vintage
In-Reply-To: <6F8BEA97-C32E-4370-824C-38E247B42B27@avanthar.com>
References: <CABGJBud+w_BUy4HSfJ-0chRmL3PU=nKNqB5Onu3oqdo_D02bUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802251803490.30886@shell.lmi.net>
 <c8c24bda-78fa-9208-e39f-7e9198eee5bc@gmail.com>
 <CAM_9E611oLdQEVfAkwpBwajYkQOLn+=g6wB3+Acim+vw2mJVGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802251920430.30886@shell.lmi.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802251937020.30886@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAA-F0u-d9POpZsckF5J85B87TSueFo0MYk4=a7oo7=pws8L2pA@mail.gmail.com>
 <6F8BEA97-C32E-4370-824C-38E247B42B27@avanthar.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802252049220.30886@shell.lmi.net>

On Sun, 25 Feb 2018, Zane Healy wrote:
> I?ve started seeing toys (mainly action figures) from the 80?s and 
> early 90?s in Antique Shops. :-(

When Erector sets switched from their mains powered motor with gears to a 
plastic batter powerd, I wondered about the future of engineering in the 
USA.

With it discontinued, I no longer wonder.

With the advent of digital watches, kids need to stop and think for a 
while to figure out which way is "clockwise".

With calculators, kids can no longer do simple arithmetic.


Just keep them off of my lawn.



From g-wright at att.net  Sun Feb 25 23:57:05 2018
From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 05:57:05 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: looking for a mother board for a hp 3000-37
References: <470538492.5406211.1519624625707.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <470538492.5406211.1519624625707@mail.yahoo.com>

Anyone have such a piece or know someone that might. 

Board number is 30457-60001
Might take the whole thing if the price is right.

Thanks, Jerry

From fmc at reanimators.org  Mon Feb 26 00:08:08 2018
From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 22:08:08 -0800
Subject: looking for a mother board for a hp 3000-37
In-Reply-To: <470538492.5406211.1519624625707@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <470538492.5406211.1519624625707.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <470538492.5406211.1519624625707@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <0D5CC796-B6C1-4DF5-ADE8-18DB21962F99@reanimators.org>

On Feb 25, 2018, at 21:57, Jerry Wright wrote:
> Anyone have such a piece or know someone that might. 
> 
> Board number is 30457-60001
> Might take the whole thing if the price is right.

"mother board" is not how I would describe that part number.  That is the CPU PCA and is one of several cards that goes in a backplane slot along with memory, PIC, TIC, &c.  Backplane PCA is 30474-60006.

-Frank McConnell


From kurt at hamm.me  Sun Feb 25 16:39:24 2018
From: kurt at hamm.me (Kurt Hamm)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 17:39:24 -0500
Subject: DEC Pro 350
In-Reply-To: <CABr82SJaGk_irwN6KX3vJx60SC-U9+h=waerxMmv8Ubhm1TwAA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJRDvfWc=KitTnUTt7yWSN9Zf3xX6F3dxV1cGY3toefhib5=aQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABr82SJaGk_irwN6KX3vJx60SC-U9+h=waerxMmv8Ubhm1TwAA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJRDvfW+pGyPK0kefSrw=4tYjtVnye5ANSTvvEj1rWuBCS7eqw@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the suggestions. Interestingly, upon first boot I was able to
get the hard disk controller error with the picture of the computer.  Then,
sure subsequent reboots failed to display anything.

I removed all the cards and booted with no luck.

It looks like I will need to build a cable to try terminal mode.  I did
hook a vt220 with a 9to25 cablw, but didn't get anything.

Since successful booting is intermittent, probably a heat or power
problem.  I will continue to try to get terminal mode working.

Kurt

On Feb 25, 2018 3:17 PM, "Mattis Lind" <mattislind at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> fredag 23 februari 2018 skrev Kurt Hamm via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org
> >:
>
>> Well, I bought that DEC Pro 350 on ebay.  It initially booted up and I got
>> the error screen.  The error code I found on the Internet was related to
>> the hard disk controller.  So, I thought I just needed someone to
>> sell/give
>> me some systems disks for the unit and I could try to setup the drive
>> again
>> if it still functioned.
>>
>> Then, it after a couple of restarts (I re-seated the boards and cleaned
>> the
>> connectors) it stopped showing the error screen (with picture of the
>> computer).  All the diagnostic lights are red on the back and nothing ever
>> shows on the screen.  The power comes on and then nothing.
>
>
> The tech manual is :  http://bitsavers.informatik.
> uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/pdp11/pro3xx/EK-PC350-TM-001_
> Professional_300_Series_Technical_Manual_Dec82.pdf
>
> In case you haven't already found it.
>
> All LED on means sytem module failed. (Page 5-33). Have you checked power
> supply voltages? I would try to remove all option boards and see if that
> makes any difference. The printer port is actually a console port. The
> details is in the manual (page 5-126 and 5-131). I suspect that all leds
> come on if it fails to run the rom based diagnostic. It might have halted
> to uODT in case you could try use the console to see if you could diagnose
> the problem.
>
>
>
>
>> If anyone has any thoughts, I would appreciate it.  I knew the history of
>> this type of computer and figured it was a long shot.  I am just
>> disappointed to have gotten really nowhere with it.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Kurt
>>
>
> Good luck!
>
> /Mattis
>

From cctalk at snarc.net  Sun Feb 25 21:10:50 2018
From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 22:10:50 -0500
Subject: What is vintage (was: Why don't you respect the mail threads?!)
In-Reply-To: <CABGJBud+w_BUy4HSfJ-0chRmL3PU=nKNqB5Onu3oqdo_D02bUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBud+w_BUy4HSfJ-0chRmL3PU=nKNqB5Onu3oqdo_D02bUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <37072cbd-212a-07c4-c8c2-14f0a0a442a0@snarc.net>

Sounds like some people need to adjust their sarcasm meters. Guys: BILL 
WAS JOKING because the topic was about threadjacking.

From cctalk at snarc.net  Sun Feb 25 22:01:38 2018
From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 23:01:38 -0500
Subject: What is vintage (was: Why don't you respect the mail threads?!)
In-Reply-To: <EF135524-BA12-4385-BAFD-11D5B90B3FF6@avanthar.com>
References: <CABGJBud+w_BUy4HSfJ-0chRmL3PU=nKNqB5Onu3oqdo_D02bUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <34c5d52e-9a49-02c8-3f08-4edc80d6d7d1@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <EF135524-BA12-4385-BAFD-11D5B90B3FF6@avanthar.com>
Message-ID: <f3b5024e-4bba-56aa-299f-3f6b4378c12e@snarc.net>

> When the list was formed, it was defined as 20 years.  Of course now, the list itself is over 20 years old.

Sigh ... well if we're really have this conversation.... I maintain that 
the present definition of "vintage", or at least how we see it over at 
Vintage Computer Federation, is no longer year-based. The proof: Windows 
98. :)

Obviously the * majority * of vintage computing is the sweet spot that 
we all know and love -- 1960s, 1970s, 1980s. But just as a modern car 
can become an instant collectible -- think Dodge Viper, original Ford 
Taurus, etc., which were groundbreaking designs -- so too must we all as 
collectors keep in mind that not everything old is worth saving, and not 
everything worth saving is old.

From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Feb 26 00:17:55 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 22:17:55 -0800
Subject: IBM Rigid Cleaning Tool 2200574
In-Reply-To: <62B4CFE8-04DA-4E77-8CD4-A0E3537407EF@avanthar.com>
References: <56766cc6-06a8-bec0-e9da-642a5046e641@bitsavers.org>
 <62B4CFE8-04DA-4E77-8CD4-A0E3537407EF@avanthar.com>
Message-ID: <c6f8e580-6897-8479-df9a-70544a1e4fa4@sydex.com>

On 02/25/2018 08:47 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:

> 
> What exactly is it?  It looks like a tongue depressor sewed into a piece of work glove type material.
> 
> We always used alcohol pads on any of the 9-Track tape drives I used.

The videotape folks use a sort of flat swab with ends covered in
chamois.  But these look to be a lot larger.

--CHuck

From steven at malikoff.com  Mon Feb 26 00:41:38 2018
From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 16:41:38 +1000
Subject: IBM Rigid Cleaning Tool 2200574
In-Reply-To: <56766cc6-06a8-bec0-e9da-642a5046e641@bitsavers.org>
References: <56766cc6-06a8-bec0-e9da-642a5046e641@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <314588d7a57168912e455952d10c09c6.squirrel@webmail04.register.com>

Al said
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/232678490872
>
> anyone run across a volume source for these?
>
> They appear to be IBM's version of the Texsleeve

Interesting there is no mention of p/n 2200574 Rigid Cleaning Tool in the IBM CE Tools Guide for
August 1984 http://www.textfiles.com/bitsavers/pdf/ibm/360/fe/S131-0075-3_CE_Tools_Ref_Aug84.pdf

This catalog lists some SLT tools so perhaps it post-dates 1984, or may have been deleted?


From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com  Mon Feb 26 03:57:13 2018
From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 09:57:13 -0000
Subject: What is vintage
In-Reply-To: <552abf15-0ca6-a1ca-d7d1-4cc6db8593b8@sydex.com>
References: <CABGJBud+w_BUy4HSfJ-0chRmL3PU=nKNqB5Onu3oqdo_D02bUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802251803490.30886@shell.lmi.net>
 <c8c24bda-78fa-9208-e39f-7e9198eee5bc@gmail.com>
 <552abf15-0ca6-a1ca-d7d1-4cc6db8593b8@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <173401d3aee8$2e6a4b00$8b3ee100$@gmail.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck
> Guzis via cctalk
> Sent: 26 February 2018 03:42
> To: allison via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: What is vintage
> 
> I thought vintage had to do with wine--and not necessarily old.
> 
> e.g. 2006 cabernet sauvignon.

I think in collecting terms it first got used for cars where, certainly in the uk, its strictly 1919-1930

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vintage_car

later is post vintage, or classic, or scrap...


> 
> "Vintage computing" occurs when you figure out how many bottles you've
> drunk.
> 

And why afterwards you bought something on E-Bay that you can't get upstairs to the collection room.. 

> --Chuck

Dave



From hachti at hachti.de  Mon Feb 26 04:43:09 2018
From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:43:09 +0100
Subject: Honeywell DDP-516 console on Ebay - PLEASE don't bid!
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs23w=QhyOHM4XxWoafY64Hrvh8+SyMNDuCZJ7Ud_5QXCzA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <33d681a1-91c6-cedf-6100-484d3f0f4324@hachti.de>
 <161bf069f5a-669-583a@webjas-vaa198.srv.aolmail.net>
 <CABGJBucpyhHeox-ZHSpPrg5jwxTrN8seRt3U8FRACpGC-A9ESg@mail.gmail.com>
 <49a3d5f0-3db2-1e6e-c2ef-7b3ae4184ef7@hachti.de>
 <06c1cb83-bed3-68e6-397c-991a2e1b3113@bitsavers.org>
 <CAA3rs23w=QhyOHM4XxWoafY64Hrvh8+SyMNDuCZJ7Ud_5QXCzA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b883fa35-658a-60c9-1c74-90be28af7ac0@hachti.de>

Hello again,

On 24.02.2018 04:42, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:
> so did u get it?
Yes, I won the auction at a badly high price.

:-) :-)  :-) :-)

Kind regards

Philipp

From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Feb 26 08:11:55 2018
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 15:11:55 +0100
Subject: Why don't you respect the mail threads?!
In-Reply-To: <20180222205740.GB31642@tau1.ceti.pl>
References: <20180221225056.6786418C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAMTenCFA4xQ6aHDG0gmsNJaPCyeT6L7-SOa8GMjivAa+4_T2Xg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180222205740.GB31642@tau1.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCHPfdXAO1_XF33c5wU=NZRFJqFsZ3LM1nSrk=zzCBqvfA@mail.gmail.com>

On 22 February 2018 at 21:57, Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl> wrote:

> Liam, I wanted to say this few months ago already (back in Nov, the
> "Editor" thread - BTW, thanks for the links to editors wiki and other
> interesting pointers).

Glad it was appreciated.

> So, what I wanted to say is, this posture is
> going to backfire, I am afraid. The new crowd is coming, who newer had
> any chance to use anything resembling a terminal (including
> terminal-like experience as wobbly as given by MS Windows).

I used to think this myself, but of late, I've had 2 jobs with FOSS
companies (Red Hat and SUSE) and they're both full of 20-somethings
who use and love Vim & other shell-only tools. People working in
tiling or ultra-minimal window managers, with a bunch of terminals and
nothing else.

Unix isn't just an OS. It's a whole culture now, and newcomers earn
credit by embracing the tools and the old ways and demonstrate their
worthiness by their skill with (to them) ancient languages, editors
and so on.

Alas, now, it's _the_ culture. Everything else is ancient history,
mostly unknown. Today, there are 2 OSes, broadly: Windows, and its
fans see no interest in anything else; and Unix, which increasingly
means macOS and Linux.

[Aside: Greybeards are into "ancient" platforms from the 1980s like
Amiga OS, Atari TOS/GEM, Acorn RISC OS, and a few into BeOS/Haiku.

The stuff from before that is mostly forgotten about now. MS-DOS and
the most popular 8-bit home micros are now solely the domain of retro
gamers.
]

But they're still millennials, so email is a slightly clunky old tool
for notifications and account verification, stuff like that. They use
chat systems more -- IRC, and an increasing presence of things like
Slack, RocketChat, Telegram, Signal and the like. There are work-only
web-based social networks where they can interact in broadly familiar
ways, such as Yammer or Red Hat's Mojo.

So at RH, for instance, there were people who primarily used Mojo and
others who primarily used the internal mailing lists.

> They
> (crowd) too will be saying things like GTFO - for now, they just top
> post awfully long replies (perhaps because their phone/web-based MUAs
> cannot offer them easy way to cut the crap?) and refuse to see any
> wrong in it. They also happen to break threads like they were paid to
> do it and since I am subscribed to way too many lists where this
> occurs, I have already gave up manual linking of threads with mutt -
> righting wrongs of the crowd is a job for a program, not for single
> human. I only have to devise it during free time, when I have some.

Yes, true. There's a ton of received wisdom on how to use email
effectively, but it's not disseminated. This means key providers of
email tools -- notably Microsoft -- didn't incorporate these.

So now there are 2 cultures of email: the old-style, text-only, 4-line
sig, bottom-posting way, and "business style": rich formatting, top
posting, epic sigs with graphics, legal notices etc. Given a tool
focused on that, it's hard to even do the other way at all.

We allowed it to fragment and in the long term that might be its downfall.

> Given that they are soon (if not already) going to be a "dictatoring"
> majority, I am not so sure the "GTFO" is the right kind of message to
> send out. Even though I have no idea what a constructive message could
> look like.

Good question.

An idea I threw out on a panel discussion a few years ago is that we
might end up with 2 "internets".

One will be the old-fashioned one, standards-based, old-fashioned
practices and tools, wild and unregulated and chaotic, with a layer of
disconnected web-based islands on top. Part of this will extend into
the "darknet", the encrypted, tunnelled, anonymised quarter for
semi-illicit stuff.

And another layer, a corporate-run tool, with signing, verified IDs,
some degree of crypto so that its users feel they are safe, but it's
all backdoored and snooped and logged. That's the layer you'll be
forced to use if you want to do public trade, where there will be
federated reputation tracking and so on.


-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Mon Feb 26 08:23:26 2018
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 09:23:26 -0500
Subject: DEC Pro 350
In-Reply-To: <CAJRDvfW+pGyPK0kefSrw=4tYjtVnye5ANSTvvEj1rWuBCS7eqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJRDvfWc=KitTnUTt7yWSN9Zf3xX6F3dxV1cGY3toefhib5=aQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABr82SJaGk_irwN6KX3vJx60SC-U9+h=waerxMmv8Ubhm1TwAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJRDvfW+pGyPK0kefSrw=4tYjtVnye5ANSTvvEj1rWuBCS7eqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <185F9FAC-242F-4E98-9BF2-A9152A7A68F0@comcast.net>



> On Feb 25, 2018, at 5:39 PM, Kurt Hamm via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the suggestions. Interestingly, upon first boot I was able to
> get the hard disk controller error with the picture of the computer.  Then,
> sure subsequent reboots failed to display anything.
> 
> I removed all the cards and booted with no luck.

That would be the expected result if the status lights indicate a motherboard failure -- it means you're not reaching the point where it looks at the I/O cards.

> It looks like I will need to build a cable to try terminal mode.  I did
> hook a vt220 with a 9to25 cablw, but didn't get anything.

You need a cable specifically wired as console cable.  Check the technical manual for the details.  The DB25 connector is used to connect either a (serial) printer or a console, and the two are distinguished by a jumper between two of the pins.  So a console cable has that jumper in its connector, a printer cable does not.  If you don't have the jumper, the speed will be set differently (4800 rather than 9600) and the UART will not appear at the console UART address.

	paul


From mokuba at gmail.com  Mon Feb 26 08:58:43 2018
From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 09:58:43 -0500
Subject: What is vintage
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802252049220.30886@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CABGJBud+w_BUy4HSfJ-0chRmL3PU=nKNqB5Onu3oqdo_D02bUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802251803490.30886@shell.lmi.net>
 <c8c24bda-78fa-9208-e39f-7e9198eee5bc@gmail.com>
 <CAM_9E611oLdQEVfAkwpBwajYkQOLn+=g6wB3+Acim+vw2mJVGw@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802251920430.30886@shell.lmi.net>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802251937020.30886@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAA-F0u-d9POpZsckF5J85B87TSueFo0MYk4=a7oo7=pws8L2pA@mail.gmail.com>
 <6F8BEA97-C32E-4370-824C-38E247B42B27@avanthar.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802252049220.30886@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CAH5WRh6gZFAo4Q1VH618roLSLgDt_sh5CUJzMhURXicwUNNeGg@mail.gmail.com>

I SUCK at basic arithmetic.

But i'm stupidly fast with a slide rule.

I'm in between useless and obtuse!

On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 11:56 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Sun, 25 Feb 2018, Zane Healy wrote:
>
>> I?ve started seeing toys (mainly action figures) from the 80?s and early
>> 90?s in Antique Shops. :-(
>>
>
> When Erector sets switched from their mains powered motor with gears to a
> plastic batter powerd, I wondered about the future of engineering in the
> USA.
>
> With it discontinued, I no longer wonder.
>
> With the advent of digital watches, kids need to stop and think for a
> while to figure out which way is "clockwise".
>
> With calculators, kids can no longer do simple arithmetic.
>
>
> Just keep them off of my lawn.
>
>
>


-- 
Gary G. Sparkes Jr.
KB3HAG

From jwest at classiccmp.org  Mon Feb 26 09:07:03 2018
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 09:07:03 -0600
Subject: What is vintage
In-Reply-To: <173401d3aee8$2e6a4b00$8b3ee100$@gmail.com>
References: <CABGJBud+w_BUy4HSfJ-0chRmL3PU=nKNqB5Onu3oqdo_D02bUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802251803490.30886@shell.lmi.net>
 <c8c24bda-78fa-9208-e39f-7e9198eee5bc@gmail.com>
 <552abf15-0ca6-a1ca-d7d1-4cc6db8593b8@sydex.com>
 <173401d3aee8$2e6a4b00$8b3ee100$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001d3af13$75d0bd50$617237f0$@classiccmp.org>

The OP was being sarcastic. Please.... not this thread again.

J



From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com  Mon Feb 26 11:06:06 2018
From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 10:06:06 -0700
Subject: SimH DECtape vs. Tops-10 [was RE: Writing emulators [Was: Re: VCF
 PNW 2018: Pictures!]]
In-Reply-To: <aee3a9cb-0537-d21a-870f-2e6eda5b884c@rickmurphy.net>
References: <3fb939928e414f54ac79070102a9822b@livingcomputers.org>
 <7CD61E89-24C2-4EEB-8B76-E6D428394DC5@comcast.net>
 <aee3a9cb-0537-d21a-870f-2e6eda5b884c@rickmurphy.net>
Message-ID: <CAM_jmsmcKBvrm6vNH4cO3EgePWPPT++kcGVSQug2VuuF_UsLmQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 2:49 PM, Rick Murphy via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 2/21/2018 5:14 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
>
>> Ok, then it could be for VMS, which also does this (via Andy's
>> unsupported driver).  I don't know of PDP-11 or other minicomputer systems
>> that do DECtape overlapped seek.  I suppose it could be for artistic
>> verisimilitude...
>>
>
> TSS/8. It was a wonderful thing to witness. Start the drive spinning,
> deselect it, go start up another, then reselect the first one as it
> approached the right part of the tape.
>     -Rick
>

The purpose of an emulator is to accurately pretend to be the original
hardware.  It doesn't matter that the original OS runs on a particular
emulator.  If a program can be written that runs on the original hardware
but fails on the emulator then there is a flaw in that emulator.

I've been slowly working on a PDP-8 emulator since the mid 1980's.  It was
able to run code a couple of days after I started working on it.  FOCAL in
about a week.  The Teletype emulation timing was added early on so a
program could not tell it was running on the emulator by timing the TTY
instructions.  About 10 years ago I added acceleration curves to the high
speed paper tape reader timing.  Within the last year I have added DF-32
support and am working towards fixing the timing so a program could not
be written to tell.  I need to add a randomness factor to the inter platter
timing.  At the moment it looks like all the drives are in optimum lockstep
which makes transfers run a little faster but isn't reality.  Probably add
a 50 hz option for those in 50 hz countries since the drive motors run
slower there and thus transfers were slower.

I have delayed adding DECTape support for years because of the difficulty
of doing this correctly.  You need to support so much stuff to do this
right from a timing standpoint.  At least on the TC01 controller you can
read in the reverse direction as well as the normal forward direction.  Do
you need to support reverse reads?  Almost no software took advantage of
this.  Every drive runs a little different and the emulator could (should)
reflect this.

If you can't have a real machine the least you can have is a correct as
possible emulator.  It is a lot easier to be lazy and think you are done
when the OS boots or an interpreter appears to run or it passes
diagnostics.  In reality you have barely begun.


-- 
Doug Ingraham
PDP-8 SN 1175

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Feb 26 12:21:40 2018
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 13:21:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: DEC Pro 350
Message-ID: <20180226182140.E656018C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Kurt Hamm 

    > If anyone has any thoughts, I would appreciate it.

You probably already know this, but... My sense is that a collector of
classic computers has to be able to diagnose and repair at the component
level - get in there with an oscilloscope and a set of prints (creating the
latter, if need be), and find the busted chip/transistor.

It's like collecting old cars - if you collect old cars, you have to be able
to work on them (or like Jay Leno, be rich and hire someone else who can -
although given that Jay worked at an auto dealer 'back in the day', he
apparently does know a fair amount).

Which isn't going to help much with this particular problem, maybe some of
the other replies will help.

	Noel

From rtomek at ceti.pl  Mon Feb 26 14:18:14 2018
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 21:18:14 +0100
Subject: Why don't you respect the mail threads?!
In-Reply-To: <105acbf1-7356-5618-9486-505adb6107f1@snarc.net>
References: <20180221225056.6786418C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20180222202655.GA31642@tau1.ceti.pl>
 <105acbf1-7356-5618-9486-505adb6107f1@snarc.net>
Message-ID: <20180226201814.GA27652@tau1.ceti.pl>

On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 03:36:08PM -0500, Evan Koblentz via cctalk wrote:
> It's gone meta: people threadjacking a thread about threadjacking.
> Now it's some posters trying to show others who is smartest about
> arcane details of obsolete email software.

Hey, I hope you do not mean that I am showing others who is smartest
or even attacking them. My language might happen to be (perceived by
others as) harsh, because I have barbaric worldview and eat raw meat,
but I am very far from attacking or showing that I am oh so
smart. Well, you will have to take my word on it, because I am not
going to let you open my head :-) .

Otherwise, yes, meta-thread-jacking is interesting - it shows that
people really like to jack everything and there is no escape from
it. This is why I have given up on regulating aspects of the net (say,
breaking threads), at least as long as it depends on other people's
behaviour (of course, they/some will misbehave, no escape) - but, as
soon as the mails come to my hard drive, I can regulate however I
please. So, provided I can program my way around my small bubble, the
problem of threads is a small one (but quite interesting from
algorithm side). Thus I usually do not make much fuss about the issue
(anymore), with exception of breaking threads - they break my own
reading experience _and_ they stay broken in the archive (AFAIK).

Searching the archive, public or personal, which seems to be partly
the motivation behind starting this very subthread - I think it needs
to be done by whole body lookup anyway, so even if some offtopic
discussion starts under "Pictures", the damage is (probably) minimal,
because Subject lines are, to me at least, merely a kind of fuzzy
tags, loosely connected to message bodies. And I think it is ok to
change the Subject of subthread if the message body is too far from
original thread, but keeping it as part of original thread has some
merits, because it shows logical flow of discussion. But, again, this
flow can be recreated with some (yet nonexistent but possible) tools,
so I do not feel the need to have very strong opinion about what other
people should do.

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **

From paulkoning at comcast.net  Mon Feb 26 14:19:29 2018
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 15:19:29 -0500
Subject: SimH DECtape vs. Tops-10 [was RE: Writing emulators [Was: Re: VCF
 PNW 2018: Pictures!]]
In-Reply-To: <CAM_jmsmcKBvrm6vNH4cO3EgePWPPT++kcGVSQug2VuuF_UsLmQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3fb939928e414f54ac79070102a9822b@livingcomputers.org>
 <7CD61E89-24C2-4EEB-8B76-E6D428394DC5@comcast.net>
 <aee3a9cb-0537-d21a-870f-2e6eda5b884c@rickmurphy.net>
 <CAM_jmsmcKBvrm6vNH4cO3EgePWPPT++kcGVSQug2VuuF_UsLmQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4316C1B4-921C-489F-87DB-F70298C62A98@comcast.net>



> On Feb 26, 2018, at 12:06 PM, Doug Ingraham via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> The purpose of an emulator is to accurately pretend to be the original
> hardware.  It doesn't matter that the original OS runs on a particular
> emulator.  If a program can be written that runs on the original hardware
> but fails on the emulator then there is a flaw in that emulator.

That's true.  But it is unfortunately also true that creating a bug for bug accurate model of an existing machine is extremely hard.  Building an OS-compatible version is not nearly as hard, but still hard enough.  Passing diagnostics is yet another hurdle; in some cases that isn't feasible without an entirely different design.  For example, in the CDC 6600 there is the "exchange jump" test, which at some point depends on the execution time of a divide instruction and the timing of exchange instructions.  It is very hard for an emulator to  mimic that (and an utter waste of effort for every other bit of software available for that machine).

Another example is the work pdp2011 had to do in order to make RSTS boot on that FPGA based PDP-11 emulation, because RSTS was doing some CPU-specific hackery to test for an obscure CPU (or FPU?) bug that had been corrected in some ECO that it wanted to require.  The only way to figure out how to do that is to reverse engineer that particular bit of code, which isn't normally available in source form.

	paul



From paulkoning at comcast.net  Mon Feb 26 14:27:32 2018
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 15:27:32 -0500
Subject: DEC Pro 350
In-Reply-To: <CAJRDvfX6w4R6wxax5OPuD5hqL2yJKaLGU2iM3gQwDPOYaVwFNA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJRDvfWc=KitTnUTt7yWSN9Zf3xX6F3dxV1cGY3toefhib5=aQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABr82SJaGk_irwN6KX3vJx60SC-U9+h=waerxMmv8Ubhm1TwAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJRDvfW+pGyPK0kefSrw=4tYjtVnye5ANSTvvEj1rWuBCS7eqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <185F9FAC-242F-4E98-9BF2-A9152A7A68F0@comcast.net>
 <CAJRDvfX6w4R6wxax5OPuD5hqL2yJKaLGU2iM3gQwDPOYaVwFNA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <97DA139A-10F5-4591-965D-46162B8037D6@comcast.net>



> On Feb 26, 2018, at 2:56 PM, Kurt Hamm <kurt at hamm.me> wrote:
> 
> Yeah, the fact that the issue is intermittent (mostly not booting) is weird.
> 
> Just to be clear,  You mentioned a 25 pin connector.  My understanding is that the console port is the printer port which is a 9 pin connector.

Sorry, you're right, my bad memory.  The DB25 is at the other end of the standard DEC cables, of course.  

The relevant documentation is table 5-26, page 181 (5-131) of the PRO technical manual, volume 1.  "Terminal L" (pin 9) is the signal that says "this is a console terminal" -- jumper that to signal ground (pin 7).  That is also stated explicitly on page 177 (5-127), third paragraph.

	paul


From mhs.stein at gmail.com  Mon Feb 26 14:34:28 2018
From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 15:34:28 -0500
Subject: Why don't you respect the mail threads?!
References: <20180221225056.6786418C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20180222202655.GA31642@tau1.ceti.pl>
 <105acbf1-7356-5618-9486-505adb6107f1@snarc.net>
 <20180226201814.GA27652@tau1.ceti.pl>
Message-ID: <3FD0C8050A144CBE8E9954A8EA22F2A8@310e2>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tomasz Rola via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2018 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: Why don't you respect the mail threads?!


> ... I do not feel the need to have very strong opinion 
> about what other people should do.
> 
> -- 
> Regards,
> Tomasz Rola
--------
Get with the program! That's what the internet/social media is all about!

m


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Mon Feb 26 14:52:02 2018
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:52:02 -0800
Subject: SimH DECtape vs. Tops-10 [was RE: Writing emulators [Was: Re: VCF
 PNW 2018: Pictures!]]
In-Reply-To: <4316C1B4-921C-489F-87DB-F70298C62A98@comcast.net>
References: <3fb939928e414f54ac79070102a9822b@livingcomputers.org>
 <7CD61E89-24C2-4EEB-8B76-E6D428394DC5@comcast.net>
 <aee3a9cb-0537-d21a-870f-2e6eda5b884c@rickmurphy.net>
 <CAM_jmsmcKBvrm6vNH4cO3EgePWPPT++kcGVSQug2VuuF_UsLmQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4316C1B4-921C-489F-87DB-F70298C62A98@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwKiBDa_U4MHns6mhpdGjJK8qtpPmot-=O3ewm_ovBzduA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 12:19 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Another example is the work pdp2011 had to do in order to make RSTS boot on that FPGA based PDP-11 emulation, because RSTS was doing some CPU-specific hackery to test for an obscure CPU (or FPU?) bug that had been corrected in some ECO that it wanted to require.  The only way to figure out how to do that is to reverse engineer that particular bit of code, which isn't normally available in source form.
>

I have one M8190 KDJ11-B that caused an RSTS/E 10.1 installation
failure. I forget what the error message was. Looking at an
installation tape message maybe it was one of these strings.
Unfortunately I could not contact field service to correct the
problem.

ECOs are missing from this FPJ11.
This DCJ11 cannot be used in conjunction with an FPJ11 accelerator.
Contact Field Service for FCO kit EQ-01440-02 to correct the problem.
The floating exception ECO is missing from this FPJ11.

From kurt at hamm.me  Mon Feb 26 13:56:54 2018
From: kurt at hamm.me (Kurt Hamm)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 14:56:54 -0500
Subject: DEC Pro 350
In-Reply-To: <185F9FAC-242F-4E98-9BF2-A9152A7A68F0@comcast.net>
References: <CAJRDvfWc=KitTnUTt7yWSN9Zf3xX6F3dxV1cGY3toefhib5=aQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABr82SJaGk_irwN6KX3vJx60SC-U9+h=waerxMmv8Ubhm1TwAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJRDvfW+pGyPK0kefSrw=4tYjtVnye5ANSTvvEj1rWuBCS7eqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <185F9FAC-242F-4E98-9BF2-A9152A7A68F0@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAJRDvfX6w4R6wxax5OPuD5hqL2yJKaLGU2iM3gQwDPOYaVwFNA@mail.gmail.com>

 Yeah, the fact that the issue is intermittent (mostly not booting) is
weird.

Just to be clear,  You mentioned a 25 pin connector.  My understanding is
that the console port is the printer port which is a 9 pin connector.

Thanks for the info.  I have ordered the stuff to make a cable so should be
able to test console port this weekend.

Kurt


On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 9:23 AM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:

>
>
> > On Feb 25, 2018, at 5:39 PM, Kurt Hamm via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for the suggestions. Interestingly, upon first boot I was able to
> > get the hard disk controller error with the picture of the computer.
> Then,
> > sure subsequent reboots failed to display anything.
> >
> > I removed all the cards and booted with no luck.
>
> That would be the expected result if the status lights indicate a
> motherboard failure -- it means you're not reaching the point where it
> looks at the I/O cards.
>
> > It looks like I will need to build a cable to try terminal mode.  I did
> > hook a vt220 with a 9to25 cablw, but didn't get anything.
>
> You need a cable specifically wired as console cable.  Check the technical
> manual for the details.  The DB25 connector is used to connect either a
> (serial) printer or a console, and the two are distinguished by a jumper
> between two of the pins.  So a console cable has that jumper in its
> connector, a printer cable does not.  If you don't have the jumper, the
> speed will be set differently (4800 rather than 9600) and the UART will not
> appear at the console UART address.
>
>         paul
>
>

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Feb 26 15:15:33 2018
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 13:15:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Writing emulators (Was: SimH DECtape vs. Tops-10 [was RE: Writing
 emulators [Was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]]
In-Reply-To: <4316C1B4-921C-489F-87DB-F70298C62A98@comcast.net>
References: <3fb939928e414f54ac79070102a9822b@livingcomputers.org>
 <7CD61E89-24C2-4EEB-8B76-E6D428394DC5@comcast.net>
 <aee3a9cb-0537-d21a-870f-2e6eda5b884c@rickmurphy.net>
 <CAM_jmsmcKBvrm6vNH4cO3EgePWPPT++kcGVSQug2VuuF_UsLmQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4316C1B4-921C-489F-87DB-F70298C62A98@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802261243400.2069@shell.lmi.net>

>> The purpose of an emulator is to accurately pretend to be the original
>> hardware.  It doesn't matter that the original OS runs on a particular
>> emulator.  If a program can be written that runs on the original hardware
>> but fails on the emulator then there is a flaw in that emulator.

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
> That's true.  But it is unfortunately also true that creating a bug for 
> bug accurate model of an existing machine is extremely hard.

There is always a decision to be made, whether to mimic the behavior, or 
mimic how it is supposed to behave.  If you are aware of a bug in the 
original, do you emulate that bug?    There was once a New Yorker cartoon, 
where a mechanic told a customer, "For $300 we can get it to run like new. 
For $600 we can get it to run like it should."

Emulation of the bugs can not simply be ignored.
Surely, you could get away with not emulating the truncated mantissa FDIV 
bug?  Not necessarily.

Sometimes timing can be important.  Using a do-nothing loop for a time 
delay was never a good idea (and optimizers would remove it), but it did 
happen, ranging from crude amateur programs, to crude copy protection.

I remember when it was sometimes necessary for MS-DOS code to determine 
what processor it was running on.  Since not all processors provided an 
"Identify yourself" command, it was done through checking for bugs, 
obscure differences, etc.  Such as checking the size of the pre-fetch 
buffer, or whether a double prefix was maintained after an interrupt (REP 
ES:MOVSW).  There was no offical method for identification.  I remember 
an article in Microcornucopia that mentioned an Intel sanctioned 
set of methods; the author couldn't remember where he got it; I called 
Intel, and after many transfers reached somebody who understood the 
question; he had no idea, but asked me to forward him a copy if I did 
ever find it.


So, it becomes necessary to have massive configuration settings, to be 
able to emulate as spec'ed, or as which set of the variant bugs.

It's hard enough just getting it to work!
When the first software based PC emulator for the Amiga came out, it 
worked [well enough to run XenoCopy on some formats].  But, people 
griped because it wasn't faster than their current PC.
Geez!  They got an elephant to fly, and people gripe about the speed and 
payload capacity!


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Feb 26 15:18:44 2018
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 13:18:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: What is vintage
In-Reply-To: <000001d3af13$75d0bd50$617237f0$@classiccmp.org>
References: <CABGJBud+w_BUy4HSfJ-0chRmL3PU=nKNqB5Onu3oqdo_D02bUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802251803490.30886@shell.lmi.net>
 <c8c24bda-78fa-9208-e39f-7e9198eee5bc@gmail.com>
 <552abf15-0ca6-a1ca-d7d1-4cc6db8593b8@sydex.com>
 <173401d3aee8$2e6a4b00$8b3ee100$@gmail.com>
 <000001d3af13$75d0bd50$617237f0$@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802261318020.2069@shell.lmi.net>

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018, Jay West via cctalk wrote:
> The OP was being sarcastic. Please.... not this thread again.

. . . and a sarcastic response just further exacerbates the situation.
Sorry.



From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net  Mon Feb 26 16:18:54 2018
From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 17:18:54 -0500
Subject: PDP11/03 BA-11M Front panel switch replacement
In-Reply-To: <5A9381BE.6020608@pico-systems.com>
References: <bad166e4-b903-ee8d-c35b-2ca3517aa802@comcast.net>
 <CACwhfuOnjbo04+GocoTz5tT3LU4sELn9Bk=mmHKWDRJnz8jgMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5A9381BE.6020608@pico-systems.com>
Message-ID: <c69faf74-aafc-197a-4abe-7e07098bffc8@comcast.net>

On 2/25/2018 10:40 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 7:50 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk < 
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>> I have a BA11-M box with the usual front panel control, however it was
>>> damaged and all three switches have been sheared off.? The LED's and 
>>> the
>>> circuit card that connects to the power supply appear to be OK.? I 
>>> would
>>> like to repair it and put it back into service.? Is there a 
>>> replacement for
>>> those switches?
>>>
> In general, many old switch patterns are still made.? Often, they have 
> a manufacturer's name and part # on the body of the switch. Some 
> common makes from back then were C&K and Alco.
>
> Jon

Good advice, I went and looked at another box I had and the switches are 
indeed C&K models 7101 and 7108.? Looking on ebay since they are 
obsolete, finding the model with the paddle actuator will be the trick.

Doug


From elson at pico-systems.com  Mon Feb 26 20:41:51 2018
From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 20:41:51 -0600
Subject: PDP11/03 BA-11M Front panel switch replacement
In-Reply-To: <c69faf74-aafc-197a-4abe-7e07098bffc8@comcast.net>
References: <bad166e4-b903-ee8d-c35b-2ca3517aa802@comcast.net>
 <CACwhfuOnjbo04+GocoTz5tT3LU4sELn9Bk=mmHKWDRJnz8jgMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5A9381BE.6020608@pico-systems.com>
 <c69faf74-aafc-197a-4abe-7e07098bffc8@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <5A94C56F.4010005@pico-systems.com>

On 02/26/2018 04:18 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> On 2/25/2018 10:40 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
>> On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 7:50 PM, Douglas Taylor via 
>> cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>>> I have a BA11-M box with the usual front panel control, 
>>>> however it was
>>>> damaged and all three switches have been sheared off.  
>>>> The LED's and the
>>>> circuit card that connects to the power supply appear 
>>>> to be OK.  I would
>>>> like to repair it and put it back into service.  Is 
>>>> there a replacement for
>>>> those switches?
>>>>
>> In general, many old switch patterns are still made.  
>> Often, they have a manufacturer's name and part # on the 
>> body of the switch. Some common makes from back then were 
>> C&K and Alco.
>>
>> Jon
>
> Good advice, I went and looked at another box I had and 
> the switches are indeed C&K models 7101 and 7108.  Looking 
> on ebay since they are obsolete, finding the model with 
> the paddle actuator will be the trick.
>
You should really get on Digi-Key or other distributor who 
has a good web site and see if you can find a new model that 
fits the same mounting hole and PC board pattern.  Even if 
C&K obsoleted the exact model, they very likely still make a 
compatible part. Digi-Key shows 408 items when I search on 
"C&K 7101".  Some of those REALLY look like stuff I remember 
in DEC equipment.

Jon

From ian.finder at gmail.com  Tue Feb 27 01:35:44 2018
From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 23:35:44 -0800
Subject: Last sun3 ask: In search of a SCSI controller (VME) for a 3/260
Message-ID: <7AB41926-FE86-44F2-8C37-11BB171DD8AA@gmail.com>

Folks, sorry for the Sun spam.


Everything was working in my newly acquired 3/260, and the monitor is even starting to shape up.

It was a gorgeous machine until I tried to use the SCSI bus on it.

The controller is dead, very dead. No fuses or obvious things.

No matter the device or chain... including the original disks.

?getbyte error, phase mismatch?

So again I plead- does anyone have a Sun 3 scsi controller, preferably of the internally pinned type, sitting on a shelf somewhere?

Thanks,

- Ian


From kylevowen at gmail.com  Tue Feb 27 07:39:23 2018
From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 07:39:23 -0600
Subject: Shipping a Flexowriter
Message-ID: <CAKtEYUy_e0EHknhu0f1j=bEVHwFLpQi+cVHZ7yLxZGr+1unBwQ@mail.gmail.com>

Does anyone have any tips on preparing a Flexowriter for shipping? Any
thoughts as to crate vs. pallet?

Thanks,

Kyle

From billdegnan at gmail.com  Tue Feb 27 07:44:11 2018
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 08:44:11 -0500
Subject: Shipping a Flexowriter
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEYUy_e0EHknhu0f1j=bEVHwFLpQi+cVHZ7yLxZGr+1unBwQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKtEYUy_e0EHknhu0f1j=bEVHwFLpQi+cVHZ7yLxZGr+1unBwQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBuc54EJcKf3Y5hk0kiULGF1afKmyiRde_6=DTBdfhyrM0A@mail.gmail.com>

I guess the first thing you need is my address....

On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 8:39 AM, Kyle Owen via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org
> wrote:

> Does anyone have any tips on preparing a Flexowriter for shipping? Any
> thoughts as to crate vs. pallet?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kyle
>

From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com  Tue Feb 27 07:53:19 2018
From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 07:53:19 -0600
Subject: Shipping a Flexowriter
In-Reply-To: <CAKtEYUy_e0EHknhu0f1j=bEVHwFLpQi+cVHZ7yLxZGr+1unBwQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKtEYUy_e0EHknhu0f1j=bEVHwFLpQi+cVHZ7yLxZGr+1unBwQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL9NafGAkSP5KOVOJONjzB9y4k4xXGwTb03uCgLT1UrNoK+yuw@mail.gmail.com>

If you can guarantee nothing will end up placed on top, it should be fine
strapped to a pallet. One thought would be to remove the feet and use the
bolt holes to attach it to a square of plywood, then screw that to the
pallet. Cinching a strap down over the top of it would probably not end
well. Next I'd wrap the thing in lots of cling wrap in every direction:
Keeps the carriage from moving, the cover from popping off, and should
prevent the loss of any loose keycaps. If it still has the paper roll
holder on the back, this should help keep it in place. Feet can be bagged
and put in the type basket.

I had a 90 pound microwave shipped to me once via FedEx Freight on a
quarter? size pallet. A little googling, it looks like the US "beverage"
pallet is 36x36. Might be a good size for this.

Depending on the circumstances, a 'gentler' door to door private party
carrier could be a good alternative (at roughly the same cost). -C



On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 7:39 AM, Kyle Owen via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org
> wrote:

> Does anyone have any tips on preparing a Flexowriter for shipping? Any
> thoughts as to crate vs. pallet?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kyle
>

From dkelvey at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 27 11:29:36 2018
From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 17:29:36 +0000
Subject: Shipping a Flexowriter
In-Reply-To: <CAL9NafGAkSP5KOVOJONjzB9y4k4xXGwTb03uCgLT1UrNoK+yuw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKtEYUy_e0EHknhu0f1j=bEVHwFLpQi+cVHZ7yLxZGr+1unBwQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <CAL9NafGAkSP5KOVOJONjzB9y4k4xXGwTb03uCgLT1UrNoK+yuw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR14MB160042274AF5EA37C26756FBA3C00@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>

I had a computer item palletized and shipped by Air Freight ( it went by surface ). An open pallet will not have things intentionally stacked on it. It is possible to have something dropped on it or a forklift tine rammed through it but that is another issue.

In my case, it worked out well but they did not deliver to my door ( I have no loading dock ). I had to go and pick it up at their distribution center ( about a 25 mile drive ).

Dwight


________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Cory Heisterkamp via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2018 5:53:19 AM
To: Kyle Owen; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Shipping a Flexowriter

If you can guarantee nothing will end up placed on top, it should be fine
strapped to a pallet. One thought would be to remove the feet and use the
bolt holes to attach it to a square of plywood, then screw that to the
pallet. Cinching a strap down over the top of it would probably not end
well. Next I'd wrap the thing in lots of cling wrap in every direction:
Keeps the carriage from moving, the cover from popping off, and should
prevent the loss of any loose keycaps. If it still has the paper roll
holder on the back, this should help keep it in place. Feet can be bagged
and put in the type basket.

I had a 90 pound microwave shipped to me once via FedEx Freight on a
quarter? size pallet. A little googling, it looks like the US "beverage"
pallet is 36x36. Might be a good size for this.

Depending on the circumstances, a 'gentler' door to door private party
carrier could be a good alternative (at roughly the same cost). -C



On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 7:39 AM, Kyle Owen via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org
> wrote:

> Does anyone have any tips on preparing a Flexowriter for shipping? Any
> thoughts as to crate vs. pallet?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kyle
>

From couryhouse at aol.com  Tue Feb 27 11:46:44 2018
From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 12:46:44 -0500
Subject: Shipping a Flexowriter
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR14MB160042274AF5EA37C26756FBA3C00@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <161d85fad76-1556-380a5@webjas-vab126.srv.aolmail.net>

Living in the dockless zone....
?
Generally?if they ?deliver ?to ? your non dock ?with a ?lift gate truck the ?price of delivery does?up ?$40 ?to $100 .... A ?while ?back recently has ?3 ?tabletop ?model 14 ... 5 level teletype ?western union teletype ?tape keyboard print on tape machines ?shipped in strapped ?to ?palate? ... ?2 for ?an upcoming? display ?on how the deaf ?re purposed??teletypes to ?their ?network ( always looking ?for ANYTHING ?ELSE ON THIS ?TOPIC) and ?one to go in the tools of the journalist ?display ?over at the university.
?
The nice? people at the freight ?place helped us ?load them in one of our ?vehicles...
no ?extra ?charge and ?they are ?strong!
?
?
reminder... always ?carry ?plastic ?sheeting in case things have ?grease and oil... and ?be ?sure?to have blankets? and cardboard sheeting to prevent scratching inside??vehicle.
?
Ed# ?www.smec.org
?
?
In a message dated 2/27/2018 10:29:45 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:
?
 I had a computer item palletized and shipped by Air Freight ( it went by surface ). An open pallet will not have things intentionally stacked on it. It is possible to have something dropped on it or a forklift tine rammed through it but that is another issue.

In my case, it worked out well but they did not deliver to my door ( I have no loading dock ). I had to go and pick it up at their distribution center ( about a 25 mile drive ).

Dwight


________________________________
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Cory Heisterkamp via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2018 5:53:19 AM
To: Kyle Owen; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Shipping a Flexowriter

If you can guarantee nothing will end up placed on top, it should be fine
strapped to a pallet. One thought would be to remove the feet and use the
bolt holes to attach it to a square of plywood, then screw that to the
pallet. Cinching a strap down over the top of it would probably not end
well. Next I'd wrap the thing in lots of cling wrap in every direction:
Keeps the carriage from moving, the cover from popping off, and should
prevent the loss of any loose keycaps. If it still has the paper roll
holder on the back, this should help keep it in place. Feet can be bagged
and put in the type basket.

I had a 90 pound microwave shipped to me once via FedEx Freight on a
quarter? size pallet. A little googling, it looks like the US "beverage"
pallet is 36x36. Might be a good size for this.

Depending on the circumstances, a 'gentler' door to door private party
carrier could be a good alternative (at roughly the same cost). -C



On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 7:39 AM, Kyle Owen via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org
> wrote:

> Does anyone have any tips on preparing a Flexowriter for shipping? Any
> thoughts as to crate vs. pallet?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kyle
>

From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Feb 27 12:23:11 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 10:23:11 -0800
Subject: Shipping a Flexowriter
In-Reply-To: <MWHPR14MB160042274AF5EA37C26756FBA3C00@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CAKtEYUy_e0EHknhu0f1j=bEVHwFLpQi+cVHZ7yLxZGr+1unBwQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL9NafGAkSP5KOVOJONjzB9y4k4xXGwTb03uCgLT1UrNoK+yuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR14MB160042274AF5EA37C26756FBA3C00@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <21d8418f-8076-2d4d-f58e-2609b66a9a3b@sydex.com>

On 02/27/2018 09:29 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote:
> I had a computer item palletized and shipped by Air Freight ( it went
> by surface ). An open pallet will not have things intentionally
> stacked on it. It is possible to have something dropped on it or a
> forklift tine rammed through it but that is another issue.
> 
> In my case, it worked out well but they did not deliver to my door (
> I have no loading dock ). I had to go and pick it up at their
> distribution center ( about a 25 mile drive ).

In my case, I simply used the local packaging franchise, Pak Mail.
Since they routinely load pallets, they didn't mind receiving one.  Cost
me all of $5 for a warehouse fee--and they even helped load it into my
truck.

When I got it home, that's where the neighbor and six-pack came in handy.

--Chuck



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Feb 27 13:10:47 2018
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 11:10:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Shipping 
In-Reply-To: <21d8418f-8076-2d4d-f58e-2609b66a9a3b@sydex.com>
References: <CAKtEYUy_e0EHknhu0f1j=bEVHwFLpQi+cVHZ7yLxZGr+1unBwQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL9NafGAkSP5KOVOJONjzB9y4k4xXGwTb03uCgLT1UrNoK+yuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR14MB160042274AF5EA37C26756FBA3C00@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <21d8418f-8076-2d4d-f58e-2609b66a9a3b@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802271052510.7241@shell.lmi.net>

A preliminary list:

Wrist computer (Epson RC-20, Fossil PalmOS): wear it.
PDA: put it in a pocket.
Tablet: a large pocket or a briefcase
Notebook: under your arm or a briefcase
Laptop: briefcase or suitcase, public transit
Microcomputer: box, car
Small minicomputer: crate, hand truck, a friend with a pickup truck
Medium minicomputer: built-in casters, refrigerator dolly, a van
Large minicomputer: pallets, forklift, liftgate truck, neighbors and beer
Mainframe: pack up and move to where the computer is.

There are exceptions to each category, such as "desktop" computers too 
heavy to put on flimsy modern desks, minis that won't fit through 
doorways, and you might already live in a mainframe.   Although a Cray 
couch doesn't look very comfortable for sleeping on.



From kylevowen at gmail.com  Tue Feb 27 13:23:12 2018
From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 13:23:12 -0600
Subject: Shipping a Flexowriter
In-Reply-To: <21d8418f-8076-2d4d-f58e-2609b66a9a3b@sydex.com>
References: <CAKtEYUy_e0EHknhu0f1j=bEVHwFLpQi+cVHZ7yLxZGr+1unBwQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL9NafGAkSP5KOVOJONjzB9y4k4xXGwTb03uCgLT1UrNoK+yuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR14MB160042274AF5EA37C26756FBA3C00@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <21d8418f-8076-2d4d-f58e-2609b66a9a3b@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAKtEYUzC5SSSDNbEjFYBND=gyucCJVQ+eE+=MW1AyfguCViBjA@mail.gmail.com>

The more quotes I get regarding shipping, the more I'm thinking to just
drive the 1300 miles (one way) and pick it up myself. I'd rather nothing
bad happen to it, as insurance money can't replace the unit (easily).

Any recommendations on finding a private carrier? It's in Colorado.

Kyle

From aperry at snowmoose.com  Tue Feb 27 13:32:03 2018
From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 11:32:03 -0800
Subject: Shipping
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802271052510.7241@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CAKtEYUy_e0EHknhu0f1j=bEVHwFLpQi+cVHZ7yLxZGr+1unBwQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL9NafGAkSP5KOVOJONjzB9y4k4xXGwTb03uCgLT1UrNoK+yuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <MWHPR14MB160042274AF5EA37C26756FBA3C00@MWHPR14MB1600.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <21d8418f-8076-2d4d-f58e-2609b66a9a3b@sydex.com>
 <Pine.LNX.4.64.1802271052510.7241@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <bebdb144-c740-e912-6366-1ea8aaa8f382@snowmoose.com>


I have been thinking about building a Cray 1 cabinet replica for use as 
storage and seating in my office/machine room, so I looked at the one at 
the LCM very closely during VCF PNW. They don't have much padding on the 
cushions.

alan

On 2/27/18 11:10 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>
>
> There are exceptions to each category, such as "desktop" computers too 
> heavy to put on flimsy modern desks, minis that won't fit through 
> doorways, and you might already live in a mainframe. Although a Cray 
> couch doesn't look very comfortable for sleeping on.
>
>


From couryhouse at aol.com  Tue Feb 27 13:37:01 2018
From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 14:37:01 -0500
Subject: Shipping a Flexowriter
In-Reply-To: <21d8418f-8076-2d4d-f58e-2609b66a9a3b@sydex.com>
Message-ID: <161d8c4a0a9-154c-423ea@webjas-vab035.srv.aolmail.net>

In my ?case ?lady ?worked at a ?warehouse and had ?her ?people??palate and strap the ?3 ttys! ?saved $$ ? Pack mail?is ?great though ?to ?pack stuff if no other free reliable ?option is there. ? We have ?to ?ship a ?large ?group of ?computer?front panels ?across ?country ?and ?they handled it ? really ?well.?
?
Pack Mail ?ships alot of ?stuff ?form many auction places too.
?
Ed# www.smecc.org?
?
In a message dated 2/27/2018 11:23:20 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:

?
 On 02/27/2018 09:29 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote:
> I had a computer item palletized and shipped by Air Freight ( it went
> by surface ). An open pallet will not have things intentionally
> stacked on it. It is possible to have something dropped on it or a
> forklift tine rammed through it but that is another issue.
> 
> In my case, it worked out well but they did not deliver to my door (
> I have no loading dock ). I had to go and pick it up at their
> distribution center ( about a 25 mile drive ).

In my case, I simply used the local packaging franchise, Pak Mail.
Since they routinely load pallets, they didn't mind receiving one. Cost
me all of $5 for a warehouse fee--and they even helped load it into my
truck.

When I got it home, that's where the neighbor and six-pack came in handy.

--Chuck



From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Feb 27 14:12:54 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 12:12:54 -0800
Subject: Shipping a Flexowriter
In-Reply-To: <161d8c4a0a9-154c-423ea@webjas-vab035.srv.aolmail.net>
References: <161d8c4a0a9-154c-423ea@webjas-vab035.srv.aolmail.net>
Message-ID: <d340d5e1-61c5-cfbc-6147-4a627040c611@sydex.com>

On 02/27/2018 11:37 AM, Ed Sharpe wrote:
> *In my ?case ?lady ?worked at a ?warehouse and had ?her ?people??palate
> and strap the ?3 ttys! ?saved $$ ? Pack mail?is ?great though ?to ?pack
> stuff if no other free reliable ?option is there. ? We have ?to ?ship a
> ?large ?group of ?computer?front panels ?across ?country ?and ?they
> handled it ? really ?well.
> *
> 
> *Pack Mail ?ships alot of ?stuff ?form many auction places too.*

I've used *Pak Mail* several times for very large delicate items and
never have been disappointed.  Choose your store location, though--some
do not handle large things.

One consideration is that they have contracts with the freight companies
and can often price shipping + packing for less than you'd get charged
for a single LTL shipment from a freight company.

Have them ship it to another Pak Mail location, so you can pick it up,
sans pallet.

Craters and Freighters is another good operation, though they tend to
operate on the East Coast.

--Chuck


From cube1 at charter.net  Tue Feb 27 23:10:05 2018
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 23:10:05 -0600
Subject: ARPANET Reaches the Royal Signals and Radar Establishment (RSRE, 
 Malvern)
In-Reply-To: <026801d3acce$1088af30$319a0d90$@gmail.com>
References: <026801d3acce$1088af30$319a0d90$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b9d66cca-2199-6f72-9b97-7558a8836015@charter.net>

On 2/23/2018 11:45 AM, Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote:

> The following extract comes from a History of Programming Languages (HOPL)
> retrospective on the development of the Ada programming language written by
> the individual who was the government lead at DARPA for much of the time of
> its development (Colonel William A. Whitaker).  I found it humorous.
> Perhaps you will too.
> 
>  
> 
> -----
> 
> The ARPANET connection was inaugurated during a visit to RSRE by Her Royal
> Highness Queen Elizabeth II.  Her Majesty sent a message of greetings to the
> members of the HOLWG from her net account, EIIR, by pressing a red velvet
> Royal carriage return.  Because the address list was long, it took about 45
> seconds for the confirmation to come back, 45 seconds of dead air.  Prince
> Philip remarked, joking respectfully, that it looked like she broke it.
> 
> -----
> 
>  
> 
> I suspect that we've "all been there" at one time or another!
> 
> paul
> 
>  
> 
> 

Speaking of lonnnnnng response times....

In the 1970s, during the development of a home-grown database system
where I used to work (developed shortly before I started there in the
mid 1970s) - that lasted over 40 years - on an IBM 360/65 MP, they were
used to having the nascent DBMS and/or the application crash, so they
got used to pressing Enter, waiting a minute or so, then heading down to
the computer room to pick up the core dump.

Well one day they got down to the computer room, but the DBMS was still
running, so they headed back upstairs (one floor up).  After about FIVE
MINUTES the application they were using to test came back with the
correct results.  Mixed emotions: yeah, it worked, but whoa, performance
was clearly going to be a problem.  ;)

By the time the thing was in production it had its own memory manager
instead of using the OS/360 GETMAIN SVC, KORMAN (or "Harvey" for short
;)).  Then it got its own task manager / threading to use instead of the
OS/360 task management - TASKMAN (they really should have called it
TAXMAN  ;)).  Then it got its own subsystem for loading the application
programs, aka content management - yup - KONMAN.  ;)  So, in the end, it
was almost an OS unto itself.  [I served as the DBA for 7 years during
that time.]

Starting out under OS/360 MVT, it survived moves and garnered
enhancements under MVS, MVS/SP, MVS/XA, MVS/ESA, OS/390 and finally z/OS
before it was finally retired.

From RichA at livingcomputers.org  Tue Feb 27 15:46:25 2018
From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 21:46:25 +0000
Subject: Bug-for-bug compatibility [was RE: SimH DECtape vs. Tops-10 [was RE:
 Writing emulators [Was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]]]
Message-ID: <6b7ae98985934adcbfb2aef674c96851@livingcomputers.org>

From: Paul Koning
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2018 12:19 PM

>> On Feb 26, 2018, at 12:06 PM, Doug Ingraham via cctalk
>> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:

>> The purpose of an emulator is to accurately pretend to be the original
>> hardware.  It doesn't matter that the original OS runs on a particular
>> emulator.  If a program can be written that runs on the original hardware
>> but fails on the emulator then there is a flaw in that emulator.

> That's true.  But it is unfortunately also true that creating a bug for bug
> accurate model of an existing machine is extremely hard.

This is true even in real hardware (or "real" hardware, if you prefer), whether
bug-for-bug or simply correct results for corner cases.

The XKL Toad-1 System was designed to be a superset clone of the KL-10 based
DECSYSTEM-2065 from Digital Equipment Corporation.  It implements the full
30-bit extended addressing introduced with TOPS-20 v4, of which the KL-10
provided a 23-bit subset, and provides native support for 10Mbit Ethernet and
FASTWIDE differential SCSI2 (both state of the art in 1991 when the design was
frozen).

As a better DEC-20, the Toad-1 was a success.  (We will leave aside the issue
of its market failure, which is irrelevant to the story.)

Fast forward 20 years, to Living Computer Museum, where a KI-10 based DEC-1070
was undergoing restoration.  Diagnostics were needed, so the resident TOPS-20
programmer laid hands on the MAINDEC sources for the KI-10 and proceeded to
compile them all and generate paper tapes of the results.  All went smashingly
well until the multiplication test.

The diagnostic source for this test uses a macro to build a set of test values
for X**2 where X is a power of 2.  Internally, Macro-20 uses the IMULM
instruction to build the results.  In the KA-10 manual, IMULx of 2**35 * 2**35
is supposed to store the high order part of the result into the 36 bit word
addressed by the instruction, and set the overflow bit.

On the Toad-1 (and on the Toad-2 prior to our discovery of this bug), a zero is
stored instead.  Since we compiled the KI-10 diagnostics on the Toad-1, this
incorrect result was placed on the diagnostic paper tape, and the KI-10 seemed
to fail the diagnostic.  Imagine our chagrin when days of trying to correct the
problem led to the conclusion that the diagnostic was incorrect.

                                                                Rich


Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computers: Museum + Labs
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134

mailto:RichA at LivingComputers.org

http://www.LivingComputers.org/

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Tue Feb 27 19:44:52 2018
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 20:44:52 -0500
Subject: Anyone have any info on the NEC D2167D-2?
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimnLjVCBLzK8jOX8zAgtkWAiP=CMqVy2hUbvDgAMbqioDg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimnb2r=rtOzq+0CvMxk1G_QJ0XCNyeus4ZpWqES+uVty1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimn3Dw0QihgNhyPoN+iC=kn4GqrCeORqJkuKNCVQLH7D3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimno6x6GYu3SCs6_6ggPq4Phftk07e085k+nCVvFDQRZwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=qJPvUGY9YtdQkXh0ERMAcvwagoXXzyA-ywg2dijoJAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=nQ9s-707XpfVAaByUY7nZN1e=1cJJQ+kqb3Rw-Y-bWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimnEs_eQQ7geY-nrAj6pMwGbOihoL0u7i1msT9+2A3+yUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimnmr4Auj_FLzq8osOJCaOPYrRt+z5jo7LpQXGONssMjtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimnLjVCBLzK8jOX8zAgtkWAiP=CMqVy2hUbvDgAMbqioDg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimnFXCNNAP1t=Rvk_3ouf_7z1g6zBbUvPKS_f4vAURxsmA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, all,

I'm going through a box of random ICs and one particular item is not
showing up on my searches outside of a couple eBay auctions for chip
collectors.

The IC is a 20-pin ceramic body with side brazed legs, gold pins, chromed
lid, with NEC D2168D on it with "-2" painted on the ceramic and date codes
from 1984.  It's almost certainly a RAM chip of some kind, but I'm not
finding any pinouts or data sheets.

Anyone recognize this?  Anyone know a system that uses them?  I have more
than 10, and since I haven't run across them before, I probably don't have
a machine that needs them.

Thanks for any tips.

-ethan

From mechanic_2 at charter.net  Wed Feb 28 00:01:55 2018
From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 00:01:55 -0600
Subject: A CD-ROM that is compatible with the 16700A LA!
Message-ID: <5A9645D3.7050502@charter.net>

Hello all,
  . . . . For those of you who having not been following my trials and tribulations with a 16700A in another topic here is a partial update. I received this LA from a benefactor who has stepped forward. A real big thanks to him. I have run into that incompatibility problem with External CD-ROM Drives.
  . . . . I am disabled and partially housebound. I am living on SSD so money is very tight for me. I am looking for a CD-ROM Drive for little or nothing that is compatible with the 16700A I have an NEC 3x Drive that uses the CD Carriers. Remember those. I have installed this and a Maxtor 245MB SCSI drive in an External SCSI box. The Termination on the CD-ROM Drive is turned off and I removed the Termination resistors on the HDD. I have a Terminator installed on the end of the SCSI bus on the External Case. Could someone please help me out? Any and all help is greatly appreciated.
GOD Bless and Thanks,
rich!


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com  Wed Feb 28 00:12:11 2018
From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 03:12:11 -0300
Subject: A CD-ROM that is compatible with the 16700A LA!
In-Reply-To: <5A9645D3.7050502@charter.net>
References: <5A9645D3.7050502@charter.net>
Message-ID: <CANdZFKSXxHrNMaEywWrayFrtLqu5SGRr0Zu4me0A_M8XwvKX2A@mail.gmail.com>

try to change sector size on your external cd from 512 to 2048 bytes or
vice-versa. It is a jumper behind the drive.


2018-02-28 3:01 GMT-03:00 Richard Pope via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>:

> Hello all,
>  . . . . For those of you who having not been following my trials and
> tribulations with a 16700A in another topic here is a partial update. I
> received this LA from a benefactor who has stepped forward. A real big
> thanks to him. I have run into that incompatibility problem with External
> CD-ROM Drives.
>  . . . . I am disabled and partially housebound. I am living on SSD so
> money is very tight for me. I am looking for a CD-ROM Drive for little or
> nothing that is compatible with the 16700A I have an NEC 3x Drive that uses
> the CD Carriers. Remember those. I have installed this and a Maxtor 245MB
> SCSI drive in an External SCSI box. The Termination on the CD-ROM Drive is
> turned off and I removed the Termination resistors on the HDD. I have a
> Terminator installed on the end of the SCSI bus on the External Case. Could
> someone please help me out? Any and all help is greatly appreciated.
> GOD Bless and Thanks,
> rich!
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>

From glen.slick at gmail.com  Wed Feb 28 00:40:10 2018
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 22:40:10 -0800
Subject: Anyone have any info on the NEC D2167D-2?
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimnFXCNNAP1t=Rvk_3ouf_7z1g6zBbUvPKS_f4vAURxsmA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimnb2r=rtOzq+0CvMxk1G_QJ0XCNyeus4ZpWqES+uVty1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimn3Dw0QihgNhyPoN+iC=kn4GqrCeORqJkuKNCVQLH7D3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimno6x6GYu3SCs6_6ggPq4Phftk07e085k+nCVvFDQRZwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=qJPvUGY9YtdQkXh0ERMAcvwagoXXzyA-ywg2dijoJAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=nQ9s-707XpfVAaByUY7nZN1e=1cJJQ+kqb3Rw-Y-bWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimnEs_eQQ7geY-nrAj6pMwGbOihoL0u7i1msT9+2A3+yUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimnmr4Auj_FLzq8osOJCaOPYrRt+z5jo7LpQXGONssMjtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimnLjVCBLzK8jOX8zAgtkWAiP=CMqVy2hUbvDgAMbqioDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimnFXCNNAP1t=Rvk_3ouf_7z1g6zBbUvPKS_f4vAURxsmA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwJM0ajVRnDN3BQC-RShC4x7s=c_drMGKdk0ovh4Ccd5gA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 5:44 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> Hi, all,
>
> I'm going through a box of random ICs and one particular item is not
> showing up on my searches outside of a couple eBay auctions for chip
> collectors.
>
> The IC is a 20-pin ceramic body with side brazed legs, gold pins, chromed
> lid, with NEC D2168D on it with "-2" painted on the ceramic and date codes
> from 1984.  It's almost certainly a RAM chip of some kind, but I'm not
> finding any pinouts or data sheets.
>
> Anyone recognize this?  Anyone know a system that uses them?  I have more
> than 10, and since I haven't run across them before, I probably don't have
> a machine that needs them.
>
> Thanks for any tips.
>
> -ethan

Msg title says D2167D, msg body says D2168D. Assuming D2167D is
correct, an NEC uPD2167 is a 16Kx1 SRAM in a 20-pin DIP package.
Separate data in and data out pins, 14 address pins,  /CS and /WE
pins.  The  uPD2167-2 has a 70ns access time, the  uPD2167-3 has a
55ns access time.

A search for uPD2167 should turn up datasheets.

From mark at wickensonline.co.uk  Wed Feb 28 03:15:34 2018
From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 09:15:34 +0000
Subject: A CD-ROM that is compatible with the 16700A LA!
In-Reply-To: <CANdZFKSXxHrNMaEywWrayFrtLqu5SGRr0Zu4me0A_M8XwvKX2A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5A9645D3.7050502@charter.net>
 <CANdZFKSXxHrNMaEywWrayFrtLqu5SGRr0Zu4me0A_M8XwvKX2A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABp7FHXGy_0RMoSfykCmp8WLF2G4_BjntmW7meWif2JAz5G0Yw@mail.gmail.com>

See if you can get hold of an old Plextor SCSI drive - they tend to have
good compatibility with older kit.

On 28 February 2018 at 06:12, Alexandre Souza via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> try to change sector size on your external cd from 512 to 2048 bytes or
> vice-versa. It is a jumper behind the drive.
>
>
> 2018-02-28 3:01 GMT-03:00 Richard Pope via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>:
>
> > Hello all,
> >  . . . . For those of you who having not been following my trials and
> > tribulations with a 16700A in another topic here is a partial update. I
> > received this LA from a benefactor who has stepped forward. A real big
> > thanks to him. I have run into that incompatibility problem with External
> > CD-ROM Drives.
> >  . . . . I am disabled and partially housebound. I am living on SSD so
> > money is very tight for me. I am looking for a CD-ROM Drive for little or
> > nothing that is compatible with the 16700A I have an NEC 3x Drive that
> uses
> > the CD Carriers. Remember those. I have installed this and a Maxtor 245MB
> > SCSI drive in an External SCSI box. The Termination on the CD-ROM Drive
> is
> > turned off and I removed the Termination resistors on the HDD. I have a
> > Terminator installed on the end of the SCSI bus on the External Case.
> Could
> > someone please help me out? Any and all help is greatly appreciated.
> > GOD Bless and Thanks,
> > rich!
> >
> >
> > ---
> > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> > https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> >
> >
>

From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Wed Feb 28 00:42:27 2018
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 01:42:27 -0500
Subject: Anyone have any info on the NEC D2167D-2?
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimnFXCNNAP1t=Rvk_3ouf_7z1g6zBbUvPKS_f4vAURxsmA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAALmimnb2r=rtOzq+0CvMxk1G_QJ0XCNyeus4ZpWqES+uVty1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimn3Dw0QihgNhyPoN+iC=kn4GqrCeORqJkuKNCVQLH7D3Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimno6x6GYu3SCs6_6ggPq4Phftk07e085k+nCVvFDQRZwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=qJPvUGY9YtdQkXh0ERMAcvwagoXXzyA-ywg2dijoJAg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=nQ9s-707XpfVAaByUY7nZN1e=1cJJQ+kqb3Rw-Y-bWA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimnEs_eQQ7geY-nrAj6pMwGbOihoL0u7i1msT9+2A3+yUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimnmr4Auj_FLzq8osOJCaOPYrRt+z5jo7LpQXGONssMjtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimnLjVCBLzK8jOX8zAgtkWAiP=CMqVy2hUbvDgAMbqioDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimnFXCNNAP1t=Rvk_3ouf_7z1g6zBbUvPKS_f4vAURxsmA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimnBf7shSsu-MpChxasA-sYQKYHyeTfGUex766tkXkZ6jQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 8:44 PM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi, all,
>
> I'm going through a box of random ICs...
>
> The IC is a 20-pin ceramic body with side brazed legs, gold pins, chromed
> lid, with NEC D2168D on it with "-2" painted on the ceramic and date codes
> from 1984.  It's almost certainly a RAM chip of some kind, but I'm not
> finding any pinouts or data sheets.

I found more parts of a similar nature which helped untangle this...
It appears to be the same configuration as the Mitsubishi M5M2167S,
which was easier to find.  A document somewhere pointed me to the full
part number of my initial search of uPD2167D (the "uP" on the front
made all the difference).

16Kx1 55ns SRAM (-2 variant), 20 pins, crossed with Fujitsu and Intel
2167 parts, and the Inmos IMS1400.

Still don't know what vintage machines this might have appeared in.
Anyone know?

-ethan

From bob at theadamsons.co.uk  Wed Feb 28 09:39:18 2018
From: bob at theadamsons.co.uk (Robert Adamson)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 15:39:18 +0000
Subject: Vtserver 32MB limit
Message-ID: <98CC72FF-84DC-457D-AD60-9909A07EE9C2@theadamsons.co.uk>

I've been using vtserver to transfer an OS to a minimal pdp11 (only a HD and console port so far). Works fine but it has a well-documented 32MB file limit. This website http://home.windstream.net/engdahl/vtserver.htm mentions some hacks but I've been unable to contact the author. Anyone have details of either the code or author?

Thanks
Bob



Sent from my iPad

From drb at msu.edu  Wed Feb 28 10:46:01 2018
From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 11:46:01 -0500
Subject: Vtserver 32MB limit
In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 28 Feb 2018 15:39:18 +0000.)
 <98CC72FF-84DC-457D-AD60-9909A07EE9C2@theadamsons.co.uk>
References: <98CC72FF-84DC-457D-AD60-9909A07EE9C2@theadamsons.co.uk> 
Message-ID: <20180228164601.D871FA58617@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>

 > I've been using vtserver to transfer an OS to a minimal pdp11 (only a
 > HD and console port so far). Works fine but it has a well-documented
 > 32MB file limit. This website
 > http://home.windstream.net/engdahl/vtserver.htm mentions some hacks
 > but I've been unable to contact the author. Anyone have details of
 > either the code or author?

Warren Toomey's email address can probably be found through tuhs.org.
He is the original author.  Jonathan Engdahl's homepage shows his email
address.  His changes are explained at the page you linked.

The 32MB limit arises due to the use of 16 bit block number fields in
the protocol.  There was a block number compression scheme in the source
(may have been conditionally compiled, memory fades), but it didn't seem
to work properly.  I needed to read RD54 drives, so I committed a hack
upon the thing, expanding the block number field to 32 bits.  I had a
bit of trouble with the first-boot stuff that vtserver toggles into ODT,
so I hacked on that too.  The windows side of this hacked version is
completely untested.  I never packaged this hack properly: no comments,
no updates to the documentation, etc.  But if it's useful, you can find
it here:

http://yagi.h-net.msu.edu/vtserver.drb.tar

De

From pete at petelancashire.com  Wed Feb 28 11:02:00 2018
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 09:02:00 -0800
Subject: More pictures of the 360/50 front panel
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u9hsE+hxpudfPGe2sEJLEvS0TkxHZvx0jU8d6bcg2vMBg@mail.gmail.com>

https://photos.app.goo.gl/36CxlZQJDssj5uLh1

I will be pulling it out later this week and have more including
the back and the hinged frame

-pete

From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com  Wed Feb 28 11:52:37 2018
From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 10:52:37 -0700
Subject: Bug-for-bug compatibility [was RE: SimH DECtape vs. Tops-10 [was
 RE: Writing emulators [Was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]]]
In-Reply-To: <6b7ae98985934adcbfb2aef674c96851@livingcomputers.org>
References: <6b7ae98985934adcbfb2aef674c96851@livingcomputers.org>
Message-ID: <CAM_jms=HYMKai7T_E2mSgDzMkweozNZFJqtBsfWEpswcUv2G8g@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 2:46 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Fast forward 20 years, to Living Computer Museum, where a KI-10 based
> DEC-1070
> was undergoing restoration.  Diagnostics were needed, so the resident
> TOPS-20
> programmer laid hands on the MAINDEC sources for the KI-10 and proceeded to
> compile them all and generate paper tapes of the results.  All went
> smashingly
> well until the multiplication test.
>
> The diagnostic source for this test uses a macro to build a set of test
> values
> for X**2 where X is a power of 2.  Internally, Macro-20 uses the IMULM
> instruction to build the results.  In the KA-10 manual, IMULx of 2**35 *
> 2**35
> is supposed to store the high order part of the result into the 36 bit word
> addressed by the instruction, and set the overflow bit.
>
> On the Toad-1 (and on the Toad-2 prior to our discovery of this bug), a
> zero is
> stored instead.  Since we compiled the KI-10 diagnostics on the Toad-1,
> this
> incorrect result was placed on the diagnostic paper tape, and the KI-10
> seemed
> to fail the diagnostic.  Imagine our chagrin when days of trying to
> correct the
> problem led to the conclusion that the diagnostic was incorrect.
>
>                                                                 Rich
>

This is a great story!  And it probably indicates that when developing the
Toad-1 this particular
diagnostic was never run from an original DEC generated tape or the Toad-1
would have failed
the diagnostic.  Alternatively assembling the diag on the restoration
project would have yielded
a working multiply.

So is someone going to fix the multiply instruction in the 20+ year old
Toad? <grin>

-- 
Doug Ingraham
PDP-8 SN 1175

From dab at froghouse.org  Wed Feb 28 12:10:32 2018
From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 13:10:32 -0500
Subject: Bug-for-bug compatibility [was RE: SimH DECtape vs. Tops-10 [was
 RE: Writing emulators [Was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]]]
In-Reply-To: <6b7ae98985934adcbfb2aef674c96851@livingcomputers.org>
References: <6b7ae98985934adcbfb2aef674c96851@livingcomputers.org>
Message-ID: <6da5ffa2-d2c5-731d-2047-4ec9f4b7f026@froghouse.org>


> Imagine our chagrin when days of trying to correct the
> problem led to the conclusion that the diagnostic was incorrect.

I may have a situation like this in working on my FPGA PDP-10.? The
Processor Reference Manuals seem quite clear that the rotate
instructions take E mod 256.? One of the manuals I've found even adds
that they never move more than 255 positions.? And yet the diagnostics I
have clearly want ROT AC,-256 to move 256 positions to the right, not
0.? Not having a real PDP-10 to compare against, I don't know which is
right.

Doing it mod 256 would be easier; I had to add an extra rotor to my
barrel shifter to handle the -256 case to make the diagnostic pass.


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Wed Feb 28 12:55:43 2018
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 13:55:43 -0500
Subject: Bug-for-bug compatibility [was RE: SimH DECtape vs. Tops-10 [was
 RE: Writing emulators [Was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]]]
In-Reply-To: <6da5ffa2-d2c5-731d-2047-4ec9f4b7f026@froghouse.org>
References: <6b7ae98985934adcbfb2aef674c96851@livingcomputers.org>
 <6da5ffa2-d2c5-731d-2047-4ec9f4b7f026@froghouse.org>
Message-ID: <68EB6FB3-5642-4171-9BCC-7FD398EBAE57@comcast.net>



> On Feb 28, 2018, at 1:10 PM, David Bridgham via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> 
>> Imagine our chagrin when days of trying to correct the
>> problem led to the conclusion that the diagnostic was incorrect.
> 
> I may have a situation like this in working on my FPGA PDP-10.  The
> Processor Reference Manuals seem quite clear that the rotate
> instructions take E mod 256.  One of the manuals I've found even adds
> that they never move more than 255 positions.  And yet the diagnostics I
> have clearly want ROT AC,-256 to move 256 positions to the right, not
> 0.  Not having a real PDP-10 to compare against, I don't know which is
> right.

In general, manuals are only a rough approximation of reality.  I remember an old joke that "PDP-11/x is compatible with PDP-11/y if and only if x == y".  And sure enough, if you look at the models appendix of the PDP-11 Architecture Handbook you will see cleary that this is true.  More precisely, it is if you ignore cases where two model numbers were assigned to the same thing, such as 11/35 and 11/40.

With the VAX, this got cleaned up to a significant extent, and ditto with Alpha.  In both cases, an internal validator tool was created to verify that, at least from the point of view of instruction execution, a new machine worked the same as an existing reference machine.  But this seems to be quite an unusual notion in the history of computer hardware development generally.  Even when standard specifications exist that appear to spell out how an architecture is supposed to work, the reality is that two implementations will in general do it differently.  That is particularly likely to happen in cases of "no one will do this" -- like shifts by more than the word size, or other oddball stuff.  

And sometimes CPU designers do stuff that's just plain nuts, like the CDC 6600 which has a shift instruction where some of the high order bits must be zero and some are ignored.  Or the way it executes a 30-bit instruction that starts in the last 15 bits of the instruction word.  Both are cases where there is additional logic involved (or at least extra wires) to do something that clearly serves no purpose.  And these things are definitely not documented in any user manual, though you can find them if you read the schematics carefully enough.

	paul


From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Feb 28 13:37:21 2018
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 11:37:21 -0800
Subject: Bug-for-bug compatibility [was RE: SimH DECtape vs. Tops-10 [was
 RE: Writing emulators [Was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]]]
In-Reply-To: <68EB6FB3-5642-4171-9BCC-7FD398EBAE57@comcast.net>
References: <6b7ae98985934adcbfb2aef674c96851@livingcomputers.org>
 <6da5ffa2-d2c5-731d-2047-4ec9f4b7f026@froghouse.org>
 <68EB6FB3-5642-4171-9BCC-7FD398EBAE57@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <54bc4f92-a63c-ff54-e00a-2e38bb279221@sydex.com>

On 02/28/2018 10:55 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:

> In general, manuals are only a rough approximation of reality.  I
> remember an old joke that "PDP-11/x is compatible with PDP-11/y if
> and only if x == y".  And sure enough, if you look at the models
> appendix of the PDP-11 Architecture Handbook you will see cleary that
> this is true.  More precisely, it is if you ignore cases where two
> model numbers were assigned to the same thing, such as 11/35 and
> 11/40.
In general, I've always taken the manuals as saying "if you do things
the way we say they work, you'll be safe".   Where the manual says one
thing and the reality is otherwise, there's a cause for concern.

The arithmetic right-shift with sign extension always made perfect sense
to me on the 6600.  It's not so simple if all you have is a logical
right shift and want to do an arithmetic one.  The instruction mnemonic
reflects this (AX, vs. left shift LX).   If you've got the arithmetic
right shift and need a logical one with zero fill, add an MX to create a
mask and then a BX to clear the extended bits.  If you time your code,
the penalty is only 2 cycles.

I recall that we ran into trouble with trying to automatically take
advantage of the CMU option on the lower (72,73) CYBER machines (the
CYBER 74 didn't have the CMU option).  Since the CMU instructions
co-opted the no-op (46xxx) instruction, you could test for a CMU by
putting a 30 bit CMU instruction (IM) with the second parcel also being
46000 and a jump in the second two.

If there was no CMU, the first two parcels would be executed as no-ops
and the jump would be taken.  Otherwise, the CMU instruction would be
executed and no jump would occur, as CMU instructions could only be
placed in the first parcel of a word.   Clever--and I recall that it was
used in several libraries  (the lower CYBER CMU DM instruction was
faster than a CPU loop for block moves).

Then the CYBER 170 came along and someone decided that CMU instructions
attempted when there was no CMU should cause an "illegal instruction"
exception.   And then everything broke.

There, the code was playing by the book.   The reference manual shows
the lower 9 bits of the 46 instruction as shaded out; i.e., ignored. (on
the 6600, we found that they weren't exactly ignored--non-zero values
could affect the timing).

Later versions of the manual show the instruction encoding as 46000, but
that was only after CPD began taking advantage of the CMU capabilities
with the "trick".

--Chuck


From RichA at livingcomputers.org  Wed Feb 28 13:35:18 2018
From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 19:35:18 +0000
Subject: Bug-for-bug compatibility [was RE: SimH DECtape vs. Tops-10 [was
 RE: Writing emulators [Was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]]]
In-Reply-To: <CAM_jms=HYMKai7T_E2mSgDzMkweozNZFJqtBsfWEpswcUv2G8g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6b7ae98985934adcbfb2aef674c96851@livingcomputers.org>
 <CAM_jms=HYMKai7T_E2mSgDzMkweozNZFJqtBsfWEpswcUv2G8g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9c54d8d753e7476bb262d5fce4833804@livingcomputers.org>

From: Doug Ingraham
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 9:53 AM

> This is a great story!  And it probably indicates that when developing the
> Toad-1 this particular diagnostic was never run from an original DEC generated
> tape or the Toad-1 would have failed the diagnostic.  Alternatively assembling
> the diag on the restoration project would have yielded a working multiply.

As it happens, this diagnostic is KI-10 specific, so no recompilation of the
KL-10 diagnostics would have caught it.

In addition, because the XKL-1 CPU was supposed to be identical to the KL-10,
it needed to pass the diagnostics *as provided* for the KL-10.

> So is someone going to fix the multiply instruction in the 20+ year old Toad?
> <grin>

Actually, they tried, but because they had stopped using the Toad-1 several
years earlier (and donated all the remaining spare parts to the museum), they
had no way to test in-house, and limited cycles for developing a fix.  If we
ever need to recompile diagnostics for the KI-10 (or, mirabile dictu, a KA-10!)
we'll use a Toad-2.

                                                                Rich

From jfoust at threedee.com  Wed Feb 28 16:42:15 2018
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 16:42:15 -0600
Subject: Suggestions for 16 mm movies to digital conversion
In-Reply-To: <CAA-F0u-y3A4H3uaPBtYevZa2VDwUHSGPHrg4bOKrhkc3UXwCKg@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <CAA-F0u-y3A4H3uaPBtYevZa2VDwUHSGPHrg4bOKrhkc3UXwCKg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20180228225023.89C814E75E@mx2.ezwind.net>

At 01:09 PM 2/24/2018, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote:
>I have a small, 5-20 stack of 16 mm's of movies dealing with computers
>The one in front of me is
>"Once Upon a Punched Card"
>I am looking for a place in the USA with a reasonable price to have them
>digitized and I will place them on both my Google drive and a Youtube
>So far I have only been able to find places I can not afford.

I use https://gomemorable.com/ .  I've used them for both 8mm and 16mm.

They have sales now and then that'll drop 40% off the price.  They're
running one now until March 3.

They scan digitally with LED illumination, frame by frame.  It'll 
brighten your old film in ways you can't imagine.  They'll scan 
to HD (1920x1080) resolution.

I send them a hard drive and they return the files as Quicktime ProRes
movie files.  These days, send 'em a bare SATA SSD to save on shipping.
If you didn't want to edit yourself, they can send you a DVD or far better 
yet a Blu-ray.

As I look at their web site now, I don't see a link that gets
me to these services I describe, that I've used as recently as a 
month or two ago.  I'll write them a note to see where the straight-forward
per-foot pricing and hard drive options went.

For 8mm, many old cameras would actually expose more of the width of 
the film than you'd ever see on your projector, so I have them scan 
the full frame.

Here's an example of a color home movie from the 1940s that I had 
converted to VHS in the early 90s via telecine, compared to a modern
digital scan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f08K0Co3l5s

- John


From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com  Wed Feb 28 17:05:03 2018
From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 18:05:03 -0500
Subject: Picked up a couple 386 machines
Message-ID: <CAOpB=UP=Ppi4yWZZbOBnAAmpiervUQqt0TYCHuHTOt2GRA4juA@mail.gmail.com>

While working at the scrapyard today, i managed to get a couple 386
machines right as they were being dropped off. One is a pakard bell
with monitor, in pristine condition. The other is a Tandy 2500 with
monitor, in rough looking shape but working too. The monitor is pretty
beat up for the tandy but working.

I have been on the look ut for a good 386 mahine for a while now, i
got kinda lucky and picked up two working systems in one day.

The pakard bell is up and running fine, it was a pretty standard
machine and just needed a hard drive.

The tandy 2500 is pretty nice as well, it has a cdrom and a hard drive
installed, although the hard drive is dead and seems to only accept AT
hard drives.

I am still learning about tandy computers, on my other machines, i was
unable to find an 8 bit isa cad that could support newer ide drives.
On the machine i just picked up it looks like a 16 bit isa slot is
free, if i were to install a 16 bit ide hard drive controller for use
with newer ide drives, would it work, or cause some kind of conflict
with the onboard hard drive controller?

The floppy drive is quite dirty but reads disks sometimes, i need to
clean it up. Im hoping to post back with a couple pictures of both the
machines running. I do not need them both, I really like the packard
bell, but if someone absolutely needs a 386 machine with monitor I am
open to offers to get one shipped out and keep the other one.

--Devin

From jfoust at threedee.com  Wed Feb 28 17:18:04 2018
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 17:18:04 -0600
Subject: Suggestions for 16 mm movies to digital conversion
In-Reply-To: <20180228225023.89C814E75E@mx2.ezwind.net>
References: <CAA-F0u-y3A4H3uaPBtYevZa2VDwUHSGPHrg4bOKrhkc3UXwCKg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180228225023.89C814E75E@mx2.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <20180228231818.97A172747C@mx1.ezwind.net>


Whoops, I forgot to mention prices.  My last invoice was $30 for supplying 
my own hard drive, $15 shipping.  4" reel (100 feet) was $43, 6" reel (300 feet) 
was $129, so must've been 43 cents a foot, with a 35% sale, final total was $77.

- John


From billdegnan at gmail.com  Wed Feb 28 17:45:04 2018
From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 18:45:04 -0500
Subject: Picked up a couple 386 machines
In-Reply-To: <CAOpB=UP=Ppi4yWZZbOBnAAmpiervUQqt0TYCHuHTOt2GRA4juA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOpB=UP=Ppi4yWZZbOBnAAmpiervUQqt0TYCHuHTOt2GRA4juA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABGJBuf_+JsqvoOFbiW3iNwAXn=Dp25BVyyoCZT=AN7-ZN7qGg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 6:05 PM, devin davison via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:

> While working at the scrapyard today, i managed to get a couple 386
> machines right as they were being dropped off. One is a pakard bell
> with monitor, in pristine condition. The other is a Tandy 2500 with
> monitor, in rough looking shape but working too. The monitor is pretty
> beat up for the tandy but working.
>
> I have been on the look ut for a good 386 mahine for a while now, i
> got kinda lucky and picked up two working systems in one day.
>
>
Glad to hear.  I think it's worth holding onto one or two 386 machines for
their historical context.  the 286 / 386 was a jump into a new era of what
one could do with Intel desktops.
Bill

From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net  Wed Feb 28 19:15:26 2018
From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 20:15:26 -0500
Subject: PDP11 I/O page memory map
Message-ID: <e1d187bc-db58-cdf2-fed8-d35b161ba650@comcast.net>

Is there a document that describes the bank 7 memory page and what 
addresses are reserved for what?? I think I've seen this before but 
can't seem to put my hands on it.

Another question, bootstrap is reserved for 173000, how many words are 
allowed there for this?? How do the more complicated bootstraps, e.g. 
microPDP11-53, accommodate this limitation?

Doug


From paulkoning at comcast.net  Wed Feb 28 19:32:31 2018
From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 20:32:31 -0500
Subject: PDP11 I/O page memory map
In-Reply-To: <e1d187bc-db58-cdf2-fed8-d35b161ba650@comcast.net>
References: <e1d187bc-db58-cdf2-fed8-d35b161ba650@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <D9D4984F-EDED-42EB-8EA4-5954801ACE39@comcast.net>

The various handbooks are useful.  Processor, peripherals, and architecture handbooks all give parts of the picture.

	paul


> On Feb 28, 2018, at 8:15 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
> Is there a document that describes the bank 7 memory page and what addresses are reserved for what?  I think I've seen this before but can't seem to put my hands on it.
> 
> Another question, bootstrap is reserved for 173000, how many words are allowed there for this?  How do the more complicated bootstraps, e.g. microPDP11-53, accommodate this limitation?
> 
> Doug
>